The Sun.
London, England, 1867-07-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

lIOUSE OF LORDS.—'furs EVENING.
The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack a
five o'clock.

-•- -
PETITIONS.
Petitions were presented front vatious places in the
diocese of Salisbury, praying that their lordships would
pass the Clerical Vestment Bill.
THE TROOPS IN NEW ZEALAND.
Lord LYTTELTON moved for copies of instructions
to Hi., officers commanding troops in New Zealand con-
cerning their distribution.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said that with regard to
this motion, as there werJ arrangements being made as to
the distribution both by her Majesty's Government and
the Government abroad, it was advisable, he thought, to
wait for further information on the subject.
The Earl of CARNARVON said that question cross
out of a despatch of hiq, and ho would certainly like to
hear something on the matter, and if the Government had
taken action in the matter it would be advisable that the
house should be informed fully on the subject.
Lord LYTTELTON thought that it was necessary that
some information should be given to the house on this sub-
ject, but if the noble duke supposed it would be advanta-
geous ho would withdraw it.
The matter then dropped.
CERTIFICATED TEACHERS IN PARISHES.
The Earl of CORK said that he wished to call the
attention of the house to the hardships sustained by
certain parishes by making the employment of a certifi-
cated teacher an indispensable condition for their ob-
taining Government assistance. Ho contended that uncer-
tificated teachers were quite as well worthy of the grant
as those who were certificated. Many competent instruc-
tors were amongst the former. It was a great hard-
ship that all these teachers should be compelled to go
to the same school; indeed it was not so amongst
higher classes of teachers, they passed their necessary
examinations, and then pursued their professional duties
without any distinction. He thought that at this time there
should be a conference with the commissioners of 1859 re-
lative to improving the rural schools of this country, and he
trusted that during the winter something would be done in
the matter. On that account ho called their lordships' at-
tention to it.
The Bishop of GLOUCESTER said that he was much
obliged to the noble earl for bringing forward the
question. Ho knew very well what hardships the
clergy of the rural districts had in obtaining proper
schools for the children of the poor. There could be no
doubt that the higher the class of educated teachers they
could obtain the more advantageous it would be, but
it was often difficult to get them. He would
suggest that there should be, if possible, diocesan
boards of education in the rural districts, by which per-
haps the evil complained of might be met.
The Duke of MARLBOROUGH said that this was one
of the most important and one of the broadest questions
that could be brought before their lordships. But he
thought that a more general ground should be taken than
that suggested by the noble lord.
[LEFT sPrax.mo:l

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Tms DAT.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 2 o'clock.
THE SCOTCH REFORM BILL.
In reply to Sir W. BUXTON,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it was intended, on the passing of the Representation of
the People Bill, to move the second rending of the Scotch
Reform Bill. The house would thereby have an oppor-
tuniiy of assenting to Landrp of the bill, the fran-
chise given therein, the redistribution of seats.
(Hear, hear.)
REPRESENTATION OP THE PEOPLE BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill, the
debate being resumed upon the following new clause
moved by Mr. Lowe :—" At any contested election for a
county or borough represented by more than two members,
and having more than one seat vacant, every voter shall
be entitled to a number of votes equal to the number of
vacant seats, and may give all such votes to one condi-
didato, or may distribute them among the candidates as he
thinks fit."
Mr. LEFEVRE opposed the clause, denying that it was
either expedient or necessary that minorities should be
represented, and he objected to it further on the ground
that it was based ou class legislation.
Mr. GORST said the amendment was a matter of in-
difference to the leaders and popular members in
returned to the house,
because they were certain of being
but with the members of his own standing tho matter was
of being compelled to m
not so unimportant, and
atlkieitfhoaemresed
Ityheeadepompearalalirsigthefftehcat
lowest class of voters.
clause, and the amendmeut
Mr. MORRISON concurredbain
hthade
prop
e into notice et the
ef
newwas
d because it sought to
tacte,d to ho clause..
only to establish another mode carrying it out.
idSirr.J
A. CDODLELRILEERystraoIanog
went altogether now and quite uu-
establish an arrange
known to the constitution.
Mr.yobebc
member for Caine,Calne because he wished that FAWCETT said he should support the proposal of
the hon. mem
mino-
rities should bo represented in that house. Ho denied
that those persons in favou powerh clause were those who
s much to the minorit as the
proposed to
give ho altogether denied •
majority. That that it was never
thought or intended that such a state of things should
exist; and with respect to the amendment to the cittus.
standing on the paper iu the name of the hon. member (-'si ,
Morrison) without saying whether he should vote f
he thought that the proposal to adopt the arrangement in
places returning two members would in effect give as much
power to the ono as to the other. He hoped the proposal
of the hon. member for Caine would be adopted, because
it would lead to the trial of a system on a small scale,
which in some 20 or 30 years would be the system in com-
mon usa. (hear, lea •.) He supported the proposal be-
cause he felt it would give to every class of opinion that
fair and just proportion of representation to which they
wore entitled.
Mr. NEWDEGATE hoped the house would accept the
amendment of the hon. member for Caine, because it would
then receive atrial as an experiment, the result of which ho
felt would be most important.
Mr. BRIGHT opposed the clause °tithe ground tha t
was ono of the most violent attacks onrepresentatiou ev
debated in that house. (Hear.) Ho had ben quite content
march along in the paths of ancient representation —(hear
and in what the Government had proposedt hey had done
The hon. member for Caine had, in almost agonising terwb
besought the house to adopt his proposal, because it
the only mode of escaping the danger to which the ho
'l"
was fast hurrying. Why, in only 8 or 10 constituoncie s
turning three members it could only hoof any effect, and was
that to be the great safeguard to the constitution. (Hoar,
hear.) If you abstracted a snow-ball from an avalache,
would that prevent the impending danger—(hear, hear)
—and the proposal of the hon. member for Caine was just
about as sensible and secure. (Hoar.) He denied that the
proposal would work as the right hon. member anticipated
and if it was only put into operation in such a place
as the City of London the result would satisfactorily prove
hat the proposal was visionary in the extreme. Re ws-,

surprised how such a person as the hon. member could
havo brought forward such a measure, especially as no
member in that House was more opposed to what he called
sodden changes and revolutions. (Haar, hear). He
did not care one straw about the proposition with
respect to the bill with which they were now
discussing, but it would destroy all that was living and
eirrgetic in every constituency to which it•was applied.
(Hear, hear.) lie looked upon it as one of those crotchety
and dreamy propositions which they heard so frequently
in that house, and therefore he hoped the committee would
reject it.
Viscount ORANBOBNE approved of the proposition,
and he could not but express kis gratification in wit&
nessing the appearance of the hon. member for Binning•
ham in a now part, vis., a defender of our ancient eousti•
tut ions. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. .1. B. MILL strongly supported the propoaiiion,
and said the strong uouservittivir speech that they hat just
heard from the hon. member for Birmingham was dimbileas
as great a surprise to Urn house as it. Was to himself, be-
cause it was the fir. t speech of the right hon. gentleman
with which he was bound to say he could not cordially
concur.

Mr. HENLEY opposed the clause.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be La d
already expressed his views on this matter without re -
servo. He thought it very unwise to adopt so va st a
change to produce such little consequences—to e
counter such great dargers for such small results. If
the principle was only to be applied to boroughs retur ni ng
three members, that appeared to him to be futile, as it
would most undoubtedly have to be applied in places r 5-
turning two members, and why not ? He must dc-
ane in the month of July to reconsider the wh o lo
question of Reform in favour of a system that was in
opposition to the customs and manners of the count r y.
(Hear, hoar.) The whole principle was agei nst
the sound principles of representation in such a
country as England. If the principle was adorted
it would produce a stagnant representation and a
feeble Executive. (Hoar, hear.) The representation
of minorities he bad looked upon as a scheme to
get crochetty men into fault. They had been
successful to an extent, and he did not think it
would be right to legislate in order to increase their num-
ber. (Hear, hear, and loud laughter.) The noble lord
the member for Stamford had said that monarchy was
dead, that the aristocracy was doomed, and democracy wag
triumphant. (Laughter.) He begged leave to doubt that
saying, because democracy could not be triumphant until
the clause of the hon. member for Caine was adopted.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He for one was not disposed,
oven if democracy was triumphant, to change the whole
spirit of representation in this great country.
1 Sir G. GREY said ho was iu favour of the amendment
to the new clause as proposed by Mr. Morrison, but bcforG
that could be moved the clause now under discussion must
bo read a second time. On that understanding he should
vote for the second reading of the clause of the hon. mem-
ber for Caine, not because he agreed with the principle it
laid down.
•""The house then divided—
..
F-- Mr. Lowe's clause

/or _r..
Against it
Majority -141
The sitting was then suspezolod till J o'clock.