The Sun.
London, England, 1803-03-17 00:00:00

'the new allowances paid on't of thteß .tivilList,
should be laid before the Horise-.L-So.rhit Parliament
would know when every '.excess took :place, and
when the exp'ence,exCeeded the:ieventie..% Measures
of this kind, he said, might, after inquiry, be found
to be expedient ; but he desired-not to be-understood
alt pledging himself to any_ specific .propoSitiorte It
avaseertainly true that in the last Session of Parliament
the House did not execute all that .appeared to be ma.
.
terialtoexecute with reference to His Majesty's Mrs_
sage; and he certainly did not afterwards bring, for.;
ward, for - the consideration -.0f.. the atejilar
hehad opened tO.them %•*vh*:enlie callenheir attention
tattle subjetc.f. It was his wish now that no proceed_
ing'should be adopted byultich.anypcissible- charge
cOuld be brought upon the Public,,..uotil aficr an
• quiry by. a Committee of that -House. -It would.
then be for the House to determine, whether any
lie* arrangement, iisnilar to that- orr7g6, should
be adopted, Whether the:Civil•List:Altutihil be reliev_
ed from some hurthens which it is obt. able. to •bear,
. and whether such an account should be laid before
the House as. he' bad'before alluded to,- which would
enable them to know when arty increase took place
in the Charges of the Civil Litt, which tversemerely
of a politicaknaturei and whiCh would givo'thern a
check and control upon the expences of that Fund.
Upon these grounds he moved, 4" That a Commit tee
be appointed to inquire into the Charges Upon that
Revenue, and that they should report the. same,
with their opinion thereon, to the House."
The MotietriVai. agreed to.
He then Moved,. 44 That it should he .a Select
cooststios, at ,Z ,Members."--lAgrecd
to.
The following
,arc the names of some of the
gentlemen' who were appointedit?Pfbrin • the Coin-
rnittee : the Chancellor of .the. Exchequer, Mr.
Brugge, the .Master of the Rolls,
,Mr. H. Lascelles,
Lord BrOme, Mr. Ashley, Lord.l3oylc, the Hon..
Robert Dundas, Sir Laurence Parsons, Mr. Rose,
the Attorney General- of-Ireland,--Mr. Elliot, Mr.
Lee, Mr. N. Vansirtart, &c.The .
Atig of the 'ExCHEQUsa moved,
Tl)at tjwact.‘ourtv.of the Emabli4i.tuent
and ;Payments, presented.to the House in. 1786, and
also the Aecount of the state-of:the r Civil List pre-
sented last SeSsioit, . should ,be referred to. the said
Committee, Ordered.
The.CKANCE I, Lak pf titeExgn tt.rattElt, presented
at the Bar crone • iuttlter accounts respeding the:
Civil List,
The ATTORNEY GYNEita, in pursuanee of the
notice, he gave-yesterday, moved for:leave to bring
rite
.a Bill foe makitek.ceetain regulations:; a the
office of Surveyor General: on-Ls Majesty Woods-
and Forests. Lessve was-give"' . .
. .
IRISH MiLITIA.:
AttjANIIER brOOgilt up. the Report of the,
committee on the Irish Militia Bill ; when the Ite_
sWtttioretespetting the Bounty tea be given to
Zia Men was read,
celifrilfitiNDll/11t1 said, he nisi to submit to the
House some. objet rions -to -the present measure,
though he' 'Aid not hope, by any arguments he
could use, to be. able In make' 'any impression
upon the
,House, or produce any ;Modifidation.in:'
the measure now, under cortsidCration.. . Ills only
objea was;.- to enter his. Protest against- this
'measure, sand to 'throw out some observations,
which perhaps might be :wended to in future, when .
any siinilzir meas'ire was brought forward. Fie
in the titst`PlaCe, to deelate, that he• was
• .
nctt!tt friend to Militia Institutiohs in general-He
didt nut approve •of them in EnglUnd, still less, in
Scotland, -and his objedions. were still .greater when
applied 'to Ireland. He would take it for'granted,
lipeau,;e it was ...the unaointeus opinio'.n 'of all the
'lrish Gentlemen Wlio. had .splAcen upon the; subjed,
tlifit 'the, IVliiitia,:e4,4iltii,netehe raised in Ireland as it'.
wase in; England;„ viz. by Ballot ; but he Totally•
differed from them in the conclusion which they
drew 'froni that circumstance, viz, that if the Milt..
tia could not be raised by. Ball'Ol;•.that therefore it
might' to be raised by BountY.- If it could not be
Itad by ballot, he would. not have it 'at all. 'He
Spoke without any undoe bias upon his Mind • be
was not a Military man, and had, neither prejudice
Cr partialities,
.but he certainly was twt a friend .to
institutions of that sort. When he said this, lie
hoped ;he should not be s.upposed .to .speak in dis-
paragement of the Militia, or of thoseGetitlemen,
who had i'xerte3 themselves with sCi• much spirit and
zeal'irlthat service, and who hat fotegone manythe Comfort's of life for the service'of the Country.
He did nicAn t,, say that instirirtion had been
brought to ['degree of perfedion beyond the most
saeguine of 'Abs.& who list proposed
the establishment of the Militia. He knew that
litany legiinents':of Were as expert, and
Made as good a figurei,up,M' the 'ParU'de'aS any .Regu.
rat Rtlgiment. He meant to impute to .hem to de-
, legs which- were not inherent to the institntign
it-
self, The ivrilitia 'Army, however perfed its ills.
cipline Might be, Was :in Artily, without experience,
and indeed he hoped in einninon with every• body
else, that it would altvays Continue so, because they
could only gain expetienee by. being -called to ad
against an Enemy in this Country.' He should not
be told, that'in the whole range Of arts, niechaniCal,
intelledual, and the art of a Soldier was
the
• ,
) one that did not require 'experience. It
might be said that the men who toadied the Militia
were of the same" description 'es those who Consti-
tuted the Regulars, that the Officers Of the Militia
were as brave -as 'those in 'the Troops -of the Line,
and from the itiferek they had 'in the Country, must
be as anxious to delend'it. -All this was true, but
valour wouldliot--dervitnotereseperierreernt. Yrsine
rte withntit experience wasoften produftiVe.tif sreat
il_.anger. If even . raw Troops were going into ac-,
• then, they:would-feel great confidence if they knew •
meg were led by Otlicers of experience. If they
e.otild say sinich an Officer distinguished himself-in
the glorious Campaign in Egypt,; such a.one'conts'
ftt_ anded in such an attack int;e West •Indies',
jee. But if raw men were commtinded by Officers;
Without experience ite.e , the: cour of the Officets
Would only !bake the men aPpreraeive that they
would le:id them into useless ei,..ger.. *as.riue
that
one Militia Ref/intent' if acting with Regiments
of the Line, might. do perfettlyi trell ;. brit the case
%* as very different when the st hole -or • neirly Abe,
whole of an Arery Tonim.retlrtirfiexl)erienceri
TioCiS w = •
lo certainly were not 'fit toga through

the wear and tear of n darripaigh„ Without Oit4t.g.
ing upon this subject, he wished to observe, that
he did not think the discipline of the• Militia eatial
to. the Regulars, particularly . when we might -be
going into a struggle which, might decide the fate,
of the Empire.
Mr. NOEL. here called Mr. WINDHAM to
order, ;s 'he did not consider'-his arguments Ai ap.
plying. to•the question before the .House. •
The SPRAKER said, he considered the Right Hon..
Gentleman 'as. perfeefly in order.
LVI NM? AM said, that 'with' respeff to'the
defels which existed in the Militia-Forceohey did
not arise friath the fault of: any 'person ; they were
defeas"that necessarily 'arose`: out of the nature of
the- Irtititutia itself. But 'it • was obvious that a
Militia Force could not be equal to a Regular Force,
• because the latter was as good as the former for de.-
' fensive operations, and might be employed for pin.
:.poses of offence : whereas the Militia could only be.
:.employedat bottle for purposes of defehte. If you
have a large force which might be• employed both
'for offensive and defensive purposes, though you
might never send them out, cif the Country, yet they,
would keep the. Enemy in check, because they could
not foresee whether you would send them on foreign
service or not ; but if the . Enemy knew, that you
• had a large foroe in the Country, and also knew
that you coald'nOt 'send that force out Of.the anti).
try,iteertainly would relieve them from any appre_'
hensions of attack 'on their own Coasts. Suppose
at the rime when BONAPARTE marched into Italy,
'•
I*
previous to.t hat Most'unaCcbOntable•Battle of Ma.
rengo, when he Colleaed all 'the Troops he Could' in'
.France, and made that' memorable passage of the
Alps, which was almost as celebrated as. Ole passage
,of Hanibal--=suppoie at that time we had 'had 30
or -40,036 awn ready' Co make an attack upon the
Enemy's Coast—he believed that the French would
• not have ventured to have sent so large a pare .of
their' force toltaly. ;•• .
Mr. TVILL ACE called the Right FlOn. Gentle.
man to order ; he conceived that these observations
did not rise out of the subjeft before the House.
• Sir WILLIAM PULTENEY said, though he
did'obt agree with the lion. gentleUlan, yet
hehoped he would be suffered to go 'on, because it
was necessary that his :observations should be an.

StVc red.
Mr. Wl.;'sTh if AV said, that one of the great ar-
guntents 'for the Militia was, the 'COnstittuirmal
Principle, that it prevented the necessity of a Stand-
it Army. But he thought there was now no
gatinid for the apprehensions that used to be enter,
tinned against a Standing Army ; at all events, the
danger, if there Nva's any, Wa's remote ; while the
danger which now threatened- was immediate and
pressing. He could: not consider the, Militia a a
L'onstitutional Force in the view it was first intend-
because it was now. foimed almot entirely of
Substitutes. 'With respeEt econonty of the
measure, he wished to-observeohatin such -a crisis.
as the present, it. would be absurd to. be governed
merely' by views of ec-ortomy bht- certainly 'When
they Were Considering whether they should give four
guineas toMilitia.Men, or six guineas to Regulars,
they might to consider the difference tLere was in
point of Utility between tlie two description's-a.
Force, and in his opinion the difference between' the
two descriptions of Force Was greater than the.dlf:
terencebetween the ;Bounties. If this, bounty was.
given to men to serve in the Militia, it certainly
would very materially impede 'the Recruiting Ser.
vice. fttr Tiotips.of the Line, lie knew that there
1-mist be a great .clegree of partiality upon this sub-
jt:'d in Gentlemen who had devoted their time and
exertions to perfeft 'the Militia, and who must
therefore feel-unwilling to see the effete of all their
labour lost ; but at such a moment as the present,
the Country must not be
.governed by such consi-
derations as these. The danger with which we
we're threatened was of 'sb-•immediate and paramount
krtture,..ticat it required the constant exertion of
all the ability of,..the Government ; the least error,
the leistreloation might be attended with the most
serious consequences. - -We-. were now going chise
hauled,, antl-if we, only lost a point or two in curt,
cnntse,, -we, rtinthe risque of. going to leeward of
our port. It had been said, 'that at such a moment
ad the present; the only object was to:call-forth the
exertions of the Country,. and that it wai,tet' ong to
comment
.upon the nature of those exertions ; hut.
in his opinion, the more, imminent-and pressing the'
danger :Was, the. greater the necessity was that the'
spirit and exertitans of the Cduttry should be pro- •
perly
,tßreCied. ,
The SEC R.UARY
.0- WAR Said, he certainly
did not intend to lia've taken 4ny part in this Dc.
bate ,because lie did not 'think that 'any•Gentlentan
" would have introduced :such . subjects_ as - they'
now heard.. But he could not sit siiil,after bearing,
observations which,he,declarc(l, had given hint as
much uneasiness 'as lie' had ever felt Since he sat in:
that Houie; 'He agrded with an-Ben; Baronet (Sir
Wm,• PULUNRY), that such arguments, ought- not
to go forth.unanswerecl, even it' they ware irregular;
ttieholgt was r
hl thoughthestiay in
i that the Right Honourable Geo.
• order. He did nor, by any
means complain of the:HOn. Gentleman's objedions
to this measure,- he only -coniplained_that.the Right
Honourable Gentleman bad made his general ob-
jedions ,at a' time, and upon. .an occasion .when
these objections coulddead .to no praflieat condo.'
siun. He complained that the Right. Hon. Gentle-.
,man entertaining such opinions upon this subjed ,as
he now.appearerl to do, should, while he was in
Militia to a degree 'office,. have augmented the
here-
tofore unprecedented ; for the Right iion. Gentle-
'min was at that time in a department immediately
• •.col nedted with the- public twee. The , Right Hon.
'Gentleman had not only sidered the Militia in Eng-
land-to be sa aUgmented, but while lie held an jai,.
'portant office .in ,Administiation, the 'Militia of.
:Scotland was loaned, and he believed that. -of : Ire.
;hind ; and yet upon,these-oceasions the. Right lion.
Gentleman had urged no objection. 4t now,
,even
the Right` Lion. Gentleman's objection's
,should:.
prevail (unless the Parliament, were. tosuperiede all
the Militia Laws at otice),. lla staied them for. the;
tint time.. When . the .8i11,..0f t: hick the pref,ent
one wits only a parr, was .befOre the fLptx, and
when, from situation of the Country „his
"tionsconid have been mote LielibCfa.tely .110 Illartift-
Jy'eXathiPcd, the Right Hon. Gentlenum sat re!,
telly 'Silent' He realty could not'Comprehend hot/
. , •