The Sun.
London, England, 1867-03-29 00:00:00

The French Legislative Assembly.

The Legislative Body held a sitting on Wednes-
day, Count;Walewski in the chair. The bill to give
a guarantee to inventions susceptible of being
patented, shown at the Universal Exhibition, was
adopted :—•
M. Rouher, Minister of StAte and of Finance, M.
Baroche, Minister of Justice, and the other. Go-
vernment-Commissioners, were present.

The order of the day was the adjourned discus-
sion on the bill proposing to abolish imprisonment
for debt.

M. Guillaume Petit objected to the conclusions
come to by M. Josseau in favour of maintaining im-
prisonment for debt founded upon the result of the
inquiry instituted, as all experience had proved that
inquiries on economic questions very rarely s,rved
the cause of progress. The numerous investigations
which had taken place during the last half century
would never have produced the slightest approach
to free trade. And for that step the enlightened
initiative of the Emperor was required. He
(the speaker) had himself consulted magistrates,
lawyers, and ministerial officers of all ranks, and
found that their opinion was that in commercial
matters imprisonment for debt was all but useless.
It had been said that it was a guarantee in the case
of the small trader, but let him want credit, and if
he was a man of good ch:iracter .he would readily
obtain it without that security. Even were it a
guarantee, that circumstance was no argument for
its retention, as the real question was whether the
principle was sound or not. If imprisonment for
debt was abolished, commercial vigilance would soon
find means to obviate the dangers suggested. And
as regarded foreigners, on the eve of the Exhibition,
when everything possible was being done to entice
them to Paris, they were encompassed with insulting
precautions. (Exclamations.) Traders said that it
was impossible to obtain references before selling to
foreigners, but the banks and discount houses man-
aged to get all the security they required. He con-
sidered this as a relic of barbarism which could be
abolished without danger. (Hear, hear.)

M. Georg was of opinion that the fact of re-
taining imprisonment for debt in matters con-
nected with the State while abolishing it for
debt was a sufficient argument for the rejection
of the bill. The considerations advanced in its
favour were all on the side. of the debtor, and the
misfortunes caused to the creditor from unfulfilled
engagements seemed to be lost sight of. If such
imprisonment was abolished, the creditor would be
at the mercy of the debtor, credit would receive a
fatal blow, And prices should be raised to cover the
risk. Last year when the situation of the agricul-
turists was under examination the suggestion was
made to commercialise agriculture, and many
bankers who were examined said that if they had
the remedy of imprisonment for debt against the
farmers they would treat with them as with traders.
To the objections that this measure was too severe
and rigorous, it might be answered that if it was
necessary to obliterate from the laws everything
that appeared too severe, a great part. of the penal
code would have to be suppressed. The minimum
amount for which arrest might take place could be
modified, the practice softened, and abuses sup-
pressed if they were found to exist, but the prin-
ciple should be maintained as indispensable to
public security.
M. Schneider observed that the maintenance
of . imprisonment for debt was demanded as a
privilege for commerce, but he believed that
the best protection was intelligence, labour, and
honesty. (Hear, hear.) During his long experi-
ence in business, and in connection with the Bank
of France, he could declare that he had never
thought of it as a guarantee. lie admitted that its
suppression might throw impediments in the way
of certain transactions, but it would only be the
unsound ones, and persons deserving credit would
not be prejudiced.
M. Baroche would just answer the question of
M. Nogent St. Laurens. Why did not the Go-
vernment remain quiet, and leave the present state
of things as it was? Because the State bad been
called on by the Chamber, and by M. Josseau,
the present reporter on the committee, to examine
the question of imprisonment for debt and intro-
duce a bill.

-- -- -----
M. Josseau—Yes, but in maintaining the principle.
-

M. Baroche was about to say, introduce a bill
which, while maintaining the system, should mode-
rate its application. The Government had thought
it preferable not to introduce a bill on imprison-
ment for debt, but one against it. (Hear,' hear.)
Was the Government to be bound to always follow
in the wake of those who represented public opinion
more or less exactly. It had often adopted a quite
different line of conduct, and he did not think the
persons interested or the country had had reason to
complain. (Hear, hear.) The committee had pie-
sented a report against the bill, but the minority
was of four members to five.
M. §peca—lt was threo to ax,

M. Mege—No ; four to five.
M. Baroche only repeated what he heard. The
abolition of the system had been attempted in 1793
and 18 [8 ; but at each of those dates the mewure
had been adopted under a revolutionary form, and
had consequently been followed by a reaction due
to the causes to which it oxed its origin. In 1793
trade was quite annihilated in consequence of poli-
tical events; in 1818 both public and private credit
suffered greatly, and the coinmereial classes had to
support a part of the consequences of that crisis.
People were not always just under adversity. The
evil was partly attributed to the abolition of impri-
sonment for debt, and its re-establishment was called
for. A bill for so doing was brought in, and he had
voted for it, with the majority of the National As-
sembly. But the two periods could not be compared;
'and what could not be accepted in 1848 appeared
to him worthy of adoption in 1867. (Hear, hear.)
He saw no inconsistency in such a change; and a
public man who had no greater contradiction to re-
proach himself with than the one in question would
be very innocent in the eyes of the Chamber and of
the country. (Assent.) Personal liberty, not being
engaged in commerce, could not be given as a
pledge and placed on the same footing as houses,
flocks, or furniture, which were guarantees, and
which the creditor might dispose of to his own pro-
fit. Yet what was done in imprisonment for debt?
The debtor was seized like a house or a beast of
burden—(movement)--with the on!y difference that
the one could be sold whilst the other could not.
All that the creditor could do was to shut up the
debtor within four walls. Political economy re-
quired the development of labour, which increased
public wealth. But how could a man work in pri-
son? It had been said that imprisonment for debt was
a means of credit, because it was a mode of coercion
which forced the debtor to pay his liabilities. In
his opinion, the only real means of intimidation
contained in the law was by bankruptcy. It had
however been said that individuals could not always
be bankrupt when they wished. He thought it
would be more correct to say : Individuals were
made bankrupts when they did not wish it. (Laugh-
ter.) The simple cessation of payments constituted
insolvency. If the debtor pays, the insolvency could
not be pronounced ; but the sole fact of the cessa-
tion of payment was sufficient for the Tribunal of
Commerce to declare it.

M. Martel—lt is discretionary.
M. 13aroche—No ! It is a duty. The Tribunal
could not refrain from making the declaration.
Since the period of detention had been diminished,
the imprisonment had partly lost its terror. Ac-
cording to a return for the last five years, 2,272
persons remained in confinement during the entire
term of their imprisonment. Thus, the fear of in-
carceration did not force them to pay their debts.
Many might have preferred passing three months in
prison rather than pay a sum of 499 fr. It had been
said that the system should be maintained for fo-
reigners. That was, however, not the means to at-
tract them to Paris, as imprisonment for debt was
very severe against foreigners. A sum of a few
hundred francs due in an hotel was sufficient to
enable the creditor to obtain an order for the incar-
ceration of the debtor. fhe best security for trades-
men was in the exercise of prudence in their affairs.
The Government was disposed to abandon also the
right of imprisonment for the costs of justice,
although he might justify its maintenance in those
cases by showing that the payment formed part of
the sentence. The only case in which it was dis-
posed to retain the system was for unla*fully rais-
ing money on property already mortgaged, and
those instances were very rare, only one having oc-
curred since 1855. (kpplause.)
M: Fabre was of opinion that imprisonmmt for
debt, in the terms in which it was at present'
authorized, was legitimate in the majority of cases ;
and that in the others all that was required was a
slight modification of the law. The bill now before
the Chamber violated a great principle of law—that
the property of the debtor was the pledge of the
creditor. (Cries of " Enough, enough. To-mor-
row, to-morrow.")

The Chamber being consulted, decided that the
discussion should be again adjourned.
M. Gueroult—Several of my colleagues and my-
self, after the question which we asked concern-
ing the works in the garden of the Luxembourg,
had made a demand for interpellations on the
subject, and our application was to be examined
to-morrow (Thursday) in the bureaux. The Mi-
nister of State having informed us the Government
intended presenting, within a few weeks, a bill on
which the subject would come forward, as a mat-
ter of course we considered it right to withdraw
our demand. (Hear.) But we reserve to ourselves
to make at that moment such observations as are
suggested to us by the precipitation with which
the works are carried on in the Luxembourg, and
the tardiness manifested in presenting the bill.
(Movement.)
The President—ln consequence, the meeting of
the members in the bureaux fixed for to-morrow
will not take place.
The proceedings then terminated.