The Sun.
London, England, 1867-04-05 00:00:00

METROPOLITAN GAS BILL.

Sir S. NORTHCOTE said he proposed to withdraw the
present bill, which stood for to-morrow, until that day
week, in order, if It was thought desirable by parties who
opposed the bill, of introducing a new bill with all the
prices and quality of gas left blank, in order that the mo-
tion might be fully discussed.
RUSSO-AMERICA.

Sir A. AGNEW asked the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs whether he could give any information as to the
reported cession of Russian America to the United States;
and whether the Aleutian Islands were included in the
Russo-American territory ?
Lord STANLEY said he had received a telegram from
St. Petersburg stating that official intelligence had been
received of the purchase of territory by the United States.
The presumption, therefore, was that the purchase was
complete, so far as the executives of the two Governments
were concerned, but the arrangement would have to be
confirmed by the Senate. He could not say whether the
Aleutian Islands were included in the purchase.
ENGLAND AND SPAIN.

Mr. OSBORNE asked whether the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs could give the house any information
with respect to the relations between this country and
Spain ?
Lord STANLEY said all the correspondence on the sub-
ject was in the hauls of hon. members.
Mr. OSBORNE wishei to have a direct answer to his
question, without fencing. tie wished to know whether
any answer had b?eu► received to the threat contained in
the last despatch he had written to the Spanish Go-
vernment ?

Lord STANLEY said no answer had been received to
the despatch alluded to by the hon. member.
THE BUDGET.

The House went, Committee of Ways and Means.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Last year
when the right hon. gentleman my predecessor made his
financial statement and offered to the house his estimate of
the amount of our income and expenditure, although the
hour was then apparently serene, we were on the verge of
perhaps the most severe monetary disturbance and crisis
that this country has ever experienced. It must, therefore,
be a source of satisfaction to the right hon. gentleman that
his estimates, tested by a trial of so extreme a character,
should yet prove the sagacity of his calculation. (Hear,
hear.) And it will not only be satisfactory to him, but I
am sure to the whole house, when I tell them that, not-
withstanding the crisis of apparently extremest peril this
country, as regards its financial condition, went through
after that statement was made— notwithstanding the cala-
mities that were experienced by financial circles of this
country, the consuming power of the country never for a,
moment flagged ; and the results are of a nature which,
whatever may be the anticipations of the house, will I am
sure, be the source of as much satisfaction as surprise.
(Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman estimated his in-
come last year—for 1866-7—at £67,013,000, and the actual
income amounts to £69,434,000—(hear, hear)—showing a
surplus of £2,42l,ooo—(hear, hear)—and this after a period
of trial which, so far certainly as the monetary interests of
this country are concerned, has seldom been equalled. But
what is most gratifying is that this surplus has been occa-
sioned mainly and almost entirely under the heads of cus-
toms and Excise, by the consumption of sugar, tobacco,
malt, and spirits. The right hon. gentleman estimated his
Customs last year at £20,923,000. They have realised
£22,300,000, showing an increase of £1,377,000. (Hear,
hear.) The right hon. gentleman estimated the Excise at
£19,665,000, and they have realised £20,670,000, showing
an increase of £1,005,000. The other items in his estimates
have been realised, but they call for no particular remark.
As the committee will have seen already by the items I have
given them, the whole surplus is almost accounted for by
the increase of Customs and Excise. The right hon. gen-
tleman estimated the expenditure at £67,013,000, though
that included tho £369,000 supplementary estimate. The
issues from the Exchequer during the year have been
£66,780,396, upon which there is a further saving of
£251,000, so that the balance surplus of the year 1866-7
will amount to £2,654,172. This, of course, has exercised
a very salutary effect on the balances of the Exchequer,
which stand thus :—On the 31st of March, 1866, the ba-
lances in the Exchequer were £5,851,314; on the 31st
March, 1867, £7,294,151. It will now be my duty to call
the attention of the committee to the expenditure for the
present year, 1867-8 ; and I may mention in the first place
to the committee that the naval and military annuity,
which was, 1 think, granted to the Bank in the year 1823,
and which was called by Mr.Cobbett at the time the " dead
weight," and has ever since borne that name, ceases, 1 be-
lieve, to-morrow. So that though we shall have to pro-
vide a portion of that annuity, that provision will be limited
this year only to the last moiety, which is something under
X 300,000. I believe the exact figures are £284,010 and
odd, the estimated expenditure of the present year in this
wise : The interest on the debt actually payable in the year,
providing for the completion of the measure of the right hon.
gentleman the member for South Lancashire for the con-
version of the £5,000,000 of debt, to which I shall here-
after have to advert, and which is not yet completed—the
interest on the debt providing for that conversion will be
£26,000 000. The other charges on the Consolidated Fund
will be £1,000,000. Thorn is a very slight increase, but
still au increase, upon that debt, which arises from a
change in the mode of keeping the accounts and paying
the salaries of the masters, which has of late been trans-
ferred to the Consolidated Fund. The masters were pre-
viously paid by fees. These fees have been converted
into stamps, so that our income under that head will be
graduany. The increased charge on the Conso-
lidated Fund is thus explained. The Army services, in-
the suppleneutlry vote of X5'.!0,000, will amount
to „Eln-:t
-,"3,000, the navy service will amount to X 10,926,000,
the. Civil services to ; 3 000 the r •nue departments
to £5,015,000, the Packet Now service' to X“;i017,000 ; making a
total of £68,134,000. I will proceed to give the esti-
mated income by which that' expenditure is to he met. We
estimate the income from ctistex
That is a dirninntion certainly t'ts
this
upon what they gave during
y,ar at X 22,000,000.
the year just terminated, but there
tapecial reasons, and
apparently to us valid ones, for that estimate, ate. There were
exceptional circumstances as regards the
the scarcity of
in consequence of the of
sugar and rum last year,
those articles, which very much affected the
it would not be prudent to estimate the Customs revenue
; and
figure than £22,000,000. The excise we rlacoat ‘)ato higher
,700,000; -
the stamps, including £lOO,OOO for common I
£9,550,000; the taxes will be £3,500,000: the property apnsdt
income tax, £6,000,000; Post-office, £
lauds, £340,000 ;and miscellaneous ,6 •o ,000 ; Crown
we put at £2,600 000.
The last item is an increase upon the previous year; Wiu.sh

I think was £2,350,000 ; but there are items of a special
character to he amount of £250,000 which will accrue this
year—such as the Japanese indemnity, the common law fee
fund, constabulary fines and penalties in Ireland, the sala-
ries being provided in the estimates, repayments from the
Post-office and the Mint, amounting altogether to about
£2so,ooo—and which justify us in placing the estimate at
£2,600,000. That will make a total of £69,340,000. The
committee will already have calculated that that will leave
us on the coming year an estimated surplus of £1,206,000.
Well, sir, it is extremely easy, in making a financial state-
ment, to proceed to this point. Having shown that we pos-
sess a surplus, the difficulty begins when we consider the
mode in which that surplus is to be dealt with. Leaving a
moderate but sufficient amount as our balance, there is no
doubt that there is a sum, and no inconsiderable sum,
which may be devoted to the general relief of tho commu-
nity. The question then arises in what mode wo should
deal with that sum. Of course, the first impression of every
mind under these circumstances is to consider what remis-
sion of taxation will be most advantageous. I would re-
mind the house that the remission of taxation during the
last ten years—l take that period because it was the ter-
mination of the Russian war—has been very considerable.
Irrespective of the reduction of the income tax, which
never stood at so low an amount as at the present moment
—viz., 4d. in the pound—the remission of taxation during
the last ten years, over and above the amount of taxes that
have been imposed, is not less than £11,000,000 per annum.
When therefore we consider the considerable reduction of
the income tax, and the other great remissions of taxation,
I think it is not very surprising that it is difficult to fix on
any particular tax of such extreme severity and apparent
injustice that all minds will agree at once that the resources
of the country should be directed to remove or alleviate it.
Indeed I think I may say there is no tax at the present
moment that injuriously affects the industry of any class
of the community except the industry of the producers of
barley. (Cheers.) I think that there can be no doubt that
the incidence of the malt tax injuriously interferes with
the industry of a considerable portion of the community.
(Hear, hear.) But, sir, that is a very large question to deal
with. (Laughter.) I have. indeed, in my generation at-
tempted to deal with it, and showed no desire to avoid, if
possible, the difficulties of attempting to readjust the sys-
tem which, as it now exists, injuriously and inequitably
affects the industry of a considerable portion of her Ma-
jesty's subjects. But you cannot interfere with that. It is
impossible to interfere with the question of the malt tax,
unless you do it in a very comprehensive and effectual
manner. It is quite impossible, with the resources at my
disposal, that 1 can deal with that matter, and I say that,
with the exception of the malt tax, there is no particular
tax which can be alleged to be one that unjustly interferes
with the industry of any portion of the community, or
which from its severe or oppressive character, demandsour
immediate attention. (Hear, hear.) There is no tax, of
course, of which the removal or reduction might not be
vindicated and upheld by the most plausible reasons ; but I
maintain that, generally speaking, there is no particular tax
with the exception I have acknowledged, and with which!
confess my inability to deal—there is no tax which demands
any special consideration or immediate attention. Then,
Sir, what is the next mode by which relief can be given to
the general interest when there is a surplus ? The next
mode, of course, is the reduction of debt. (Hear.) Now it
is impossible to deal effectively with the reduction of debt
unless we do it by means of some specific sum which,
charged on the Consolidated Fund, is annually disbursed for
that object. Of course, in considering the question of the
reduction of debt, I do not want for a moment to advert to
the existing law which prevails, by which occasional sur-
pluses, when our account every quarter is periodically
settled, are appropriated to the reduction of the national
debt. I take it for granted that no gentleman on eitherside
of the house wishes to interfere with the action of that law
—(hear, hear)—which is founded on scientific principles,
which is, as far as it goes, extremely useful and beneficial,
and the effects of which have to a certain degree been sa-
tisfactory. But it is not, of course, the legislation by which
we can deal on a very large scale with such a question astho
public debt. Well, then, if we admit that the only way of
dealing effectively with the public debt is to deal with it
by some specific amount, which shall be charged upon the
Consolidated Fund, there are only two modes by which
we can operate. The 'first is by a charge of that cha-
racter which can only be voted annually when the
financial statement is made, and the amount of which
shall be employed in the purchase and cancelling of stock
and other public securities—in short, what is called a
sinking fund. Now, I have myself always looked with
great disfavour upon that mode of operating upon the
public debt. (Hear, hear.) I have always felt that, how-
ever sound may be the situation when such a fund is
established, whenever a strain came upon our resources it
would infallibly cease to operate. (Hear, hear.) The last
attempt made to establish a sinking fund on this principle
was made during the Russian war, by the excellent Sir
George Lewis, and I felt it my duty then to oppose the
proposition. I was supported on that occasion by the right
hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Gladstone), a rare and grati-
fying incident. (Great laughter, in which both right hon.
gentlemen participated.) But, notwithstanding our united
efforts, I am sorry to s•iy we were completely defeated.
(Laughter.) But, sir, the majority of a Minister even as
popular as Lord Palmerston could not prevail against the
inexorable logic of facts—(laughter)—because, in a very
short time, there was no surplus to supply the sinking fund,
and the only way iu which it could have been supplied
would be to inflict new taxes upon the community. That
strain upon resources which adversity brings, and which
the right hon. gentleman and myself had contemplated,
did occur. I happened to be in the year 1858 Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and I had the melancholy satisfaction of
proposing to the house that the sinking fund shoul termi
nate, and I think there never was a proposition which was
so unanimously adopted. The house thought that to in-
flict new taxes upon the country at 'a moment when, like
the present, there was considerable monetary disturbance
and pressure —to inflict new taxes to the amount of a
million and a half in order to pay off debt—would be
to involve ourselves in a ruinous and really silly proce-
dure ; and I think that was the last effort made to estab-
lish a sinking fund upon the old principle. However,
sir, there is another way by which to deal with the debt,
and by which it can be reduced ; and the committee, of
course, are aware of it. You may grant terminable an-
nuities—(hear, hear)—or you may even do better, you
can convert stock into terminable annuities—(hear, hear)
—and that is a proceeding for which there are great facili-
ties in the Government of this country, because they are
the holders of stock to the amount of many millions.
Last year the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone)
called our attention to this subject. He was impressed
with the policy of dealing with the amount of our debt. He
thought—there having been a great remission of taxation
for many years—that the time had arrived when we ought
to consider whether our surplus revenue should not be
employed with that object. Now, sir, although the right
hon. gentleman, when he opened his scheme, commenced
with a sneer at myself in consequence of an expression
which I had used with regard to the public debt, but which
I never used in this house, and which, therefore, it was
unnecessary forhim to have taken notice of.
Mr. GLADSTONE here made a remark across the
table, which could not be caught.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—WeII, I
am responsible for a familiar expression regarding the
public debt which my respect for the house will not allow
me to repeat—(laughter)--but which I did use towards a
booby at the hustings of my county who was quoting the
amount of the public debt as a reason why we should not
vindicate the honour of the country, or even defend its in-
dependence ; and I then did say that as against such con-
siderations the public debt—l will not use the familiar ex-
pression—might really be compared to the incision of a
most troublesome though not the most popular of insects.
(Great laughter.) Though the right hon. gentleman com-
menced his speech with that quotation, which, with the
egotism which influences all men, I really thought was in-
tended for me, because I was guilty of the phrase, I still
entirely approved of his policy. I thought it was a wise
policy, and a good policy. The measures which the right
lion, gentleman brought forward to effect that policy were
numerous. In some instances 1 thought thorn unnecessarily
complicated—(hear)—and that they attempted to deal with
a too great space of time and penetrate further than is ne-
cessary for Parliament to follow the schemes of a Minister.
But these were small operations compared with the great-
ness of the policy itself, and I and those with whom I act
entirely approved of that policy, and supported the right
hon. gentleman throughout. 1 must now very succinctly
call the attention of the committee to the general charac-
ter of those plans of the right hon. gentleman, for one of
them indeed very much affects, whatever may be the deci-
sion as to the proposals that I am going to make, the slate
of our finances. The right hon. gentleman proposed, first,
to cancel debt to the amount of £5,000,000 that we owed to
the savings banks, by its conversion into annuities, which
were to terminate in 1385. That.£3,ooo,ooo belonged partly
to the Post-office Sayings Banks, and the other moiety to
the old savings banks. That measure was passed, but be-
fore it could be carried into operation very great changes
had taken place in the monetary world, to which I have
already referred, and it became impossible at the time to
carry it into complete effect. But fortunately there was
what may be called a suspending power in that act, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had discretion to suspend his
operations, and generally to act as circumstances would
allow him for the completion of the scheme. Now the two
millions and a half that were to be supplied by the debt
owing to the Post-office we have operated upon. They
were operated upon immediately—brit there happened to
be a panic in the country, and the trustees of. the savings
banks did not feel justified in effecting the conversion in-
tended. They felt that, if the distrust continued, they
would probably be called upon to realise securities much
more inconvenient than the stock which was to be con-
verted, and which they could only realise at a considerable
loss ; and at one time it seemed probable that they would
have to fall back on the great debt that we owe to the
savings banks, and which the right hon. gentleman ex-
plained. But I am glad to say those circumstances have
disappeared, or are fast disappearing, and I hope that we
shall very soon complete a measure Which was passed by the
right hon. gentleman, and for which I have provided in the
charge for the coming year. The next operation proposed
by hiuy was of a rauch more conzider.ible character. Hi j

proposed to deal with a sum of not less than £24,000,000.
It was an operation which was to cancel £24,000,000 of
debt by its conversion into annuities terminable in 1885.
That was to be effected by 'operation A," and then by a
second operation, " operation B," we were to deal with
such amounts of the terminable annuities as represented
the capital advanced. Fresh arrangements were fixed
upon in this part of the arrangements, and it extended
over a very long period. I think its final solution was
not to occur until 1905. I confessed at the time that that
was a part of the scheme which appeared to me to be of
too complicated a character for us to adopt, and one
which unnecessarily extended the sphere of legitimate
financial operations. But these were criticisms which,
after all, did not affect the principle of the measure. But
neither of those measures of the right hon. gentlemen has
ever really come into operation. It is a great mistake,
however, to suppose that the failure of them was occa-
sioned by any change in the Government. If circum-
stances had permitted it, her 111.ijesty's Government would
have entirely approved of the policy of the right hon. gen-
tleman in this regard; and although they might have
slightly modified some of the secondary arrangements,
they would have loyally attempted to carry it into effect.
But very considerable changes occurred in our financial
arrangements, and when we succeeded to office we found
that the surplus upon which the right hon. gentleman
counted as the basis of his operations had already been
considerably diminished, and circumstances were hourly
occurring which created such a further diminution as
almost to make the surplus disappear altogether. There
were the circumstances of the cattle plague, the distress
of Irish railways, the battle of Sadowa, which created a
complete revolution in our small arms, and other circum-
stances familiar to the committee which materially
affected the surplus upon which the right hon. gentleman
had counted. The consequence was that it was quite im-
possible to proceed with that operation, and the House will
perhaps recollect that on coming into office I made a
statement on the subject, the fairness of which was not
contested, and the policy of which was assented to by the
right hon. gentleman. Now, sir, I wish the committee to
consider to-night the effect of a proposition which I am
going to make with reference to this large sum of
£24,000,000, which is of a simpler description than that re-
commended to the house last year by the right hon. gen-
tleman ; but if it has any merits whatever these merits
may be the right hon. gentlemanis solely entitled to them.
What I wish the committee to consider is the effect of

cancelling this debt of £24,000,000 by granting a ter.

minable annuity which shall cease in 1885, and which shall
not be accompanied by any of those more complicated
arrangements which would extend it to the year 1890.
Before the committee decides upon the proposition
which we wish to recommend, perhaps they will allow me
to read figures which will be explanatory of the result, and
without which they can scarcely come to a decision upon
the subject. This sum of £24,000,000 consists of two
amounts, and it is necessary the committee should bear
that in mind. One is a sum of £18,000,000 and the other
of £6,000,000. The interest upon these two amounts is
payable at two different times in the year—summer and
winter—July and January for the ono, and spring and
autumn for the other. The plan we wish the committee to
consider is this: Wo propose to convert the £18,000,000,
now yielding an interest of £540,000 a year, into an annuity
of £1,332,000 per annum, terminating on the sth of July,
1885, and payable half-yearly ; the first quarter to be pay-
able on the sth of July, 1867. We propose to convert the
£6,000,000, now yielding an interest of £lBO,OOO a year,
into an annuity terminable on the sth of April, 1885, of
£440,000, payable half-yearly, on the sth of April and 10th
October ; the first quarter to be payable in October, 1867.
The total of both annuities will be £1,776,000. That being
the total, it is necessary that I should place before the com-
mittee the amount that will be payable in the present
financial year. [Mr. GLansTostE—To terminate at what
time ?] In July and October, 1885. We have got an annuity
of £1,776,000 by which to cancel this debt of $21,000,000.
I wish to show to the committee the amount of the annuity
that will be payable in the present year. There will be one
quarter in July, 1867, on the annuity of £18,000,000, which
will be £333,000, and a half year on the sth January, 1868,
which will be £666,000; there will be on the annuity of
£6,000,000, a quarter on the 10th of October, 1867,
amounting to £lll,OOO. But we must add to our lia-
bilities for this year the interest upon these two capital sums
until the dates of convex-siva, making for the one half year
on the £18,000,000, due the sth of April, 1867, the sum
of £270,000; and for the one half on the £6,000,000, duo
the sth of July, 1867, the sum of £90,000 ; or altogether
£1,470,000. But then, of course, we must deduct from that
sum the interest that we are now paying during the year
for the £24,000,000, which amounts to £720,000. So that
the total additional charge for 1867-8 will be £750,000.
(Hear, hear.) It will be necessary iu the next place that I
should put before tho committee what will be the effect of
this operation in its entirety ; therefore I must take the
next year, and see what the charge will be on the Conso-
lidated Fund of the operation for the entire year. The
future annual charge will be £1,776,000, less, of course,
by the amount of the annual interest on the capital sums
proposed to be converted, which is £720,000 ; and there-
fore the increase of the annual charge from 1868-9 up to
1885, when the annuity will cease, will be £1,056,000 per
annum. But I must remind the committee that the dead-
weight annuity, which amounts to £585,740, is to be de-
ducted, and the country will be free from that charge;
and therefore, practically, the increase of the annual
charge by which we shall cancel this debt of £24,000,000
will be a sum less than £500,000, and that is the proposi-
tion we recommend to the committee. (Cheers.) It is a
sensible and a very considerable reduction of the public
debt, coupled with the original measure which the right
hon. gentleman carried last year, amounting at once to
£29,000,000, and practically will be effected by a sum
less than £500,000 a year. If the committee will, after
consideration, adopt the measure we recommend, the
surplus of this year will be reduced by the sum of
£750,000, and there will remain a sum of £456,000. Now,
under ordinary circumstances, if the balances in the
Exchequer were in the same condition as last year, I
should not hesitate to recommend the committee not to
deal with that surplus. I don't think, if our balances
were one or two millions less, it would be wise to reduce
the surplus to £156,000. But in the present state of our
balances, I think we aro justified in dealing with this por-
tion of the surplus. That portion is not very considerable,
but the great point is to employ our resources in the manner
most effective, and which will give the most sensible relief

to the community. Although the amount is not large there
are several modes by which it may be beneficially appro-
priated. After much consideration, it has appeared to the
Government that the manner by which the most extensive

_ _ _ ---•
relief could be given would be by dealing with the question
of marine assurances. That is a portion of ourfiscal system
which has Lang been open to various objections, and to
which all men who are interested in transactions of trade
have frequently called the attention of the Government.
The committee are probably aware of the extremely cm-
. plicated character of the law as at present existing with
reference to the tax upon marine assurances. These duties
are based upon the principle of a graduated scale, and in
that scale there are a great many degrees. They commence
by 3d. per cent.and go as high as 45., and they are so framed
that precisely as the premium is higher—that is to say,
when the danger is greater the duty increases. Therefore
you are taxing risks, and inflicting a penalty upon the in-
curring of danger. That is a principle which I cannot think
the committee will sanction. The tax has led to great eva-
sion, and is a great restriction upon commercial intercourse,
and in an infinite variety of ways this complicated arrange-
ment of the duties of marine assurances exercises a baneful
influence upon general commercial intercourse. 'What wo
propose to do—with one slight exception, which is rather
of a technical than fiscal character —is to establish one
uniform rate upon marine assurance, and fix it at the
lowest amount that now prevails. (liner, hear.) There-
fore you will have for all policies, whether time or voyage
policies, a uniform rate of 3d. per, cent., except in the

case of time policies exceeding six months. (Hear, bear.:

A time policy for twelve months is not in accord:
mice with the spirit of the age and with the means of
rapid communication we now possess, and there is really

no reason why they should run longer than six months.
We recommend a uniform rate with the conviction that
policies of twelvemonths will become quite obsolete.
Having thus endeavoured to set before you the state of
the finances, and the state of the surplus, and the mode
of dealing with that surplus, I have only to add that it
will absorb £210,000, which will leave still of the surplus
.e4e6t,o ti, whichng
I think, an adequate margin to
m
I have endeavoured, as I have said,
2eocoone contingencies.
gill
ll be,
to place before the committee the general state of affairs,
and the mode we recommend that Parliament should deal
with this surplus; but there are one or two other points
to which I should briefly direct attention. The tea duty
will expire in next August, and the income tax in four and
twenty hours, but the committee, I am sure, will make no
difficulty in renewing them. I should also mention that
in November of the present year and March next year,
Exchequer Bonds amounting to £1,700,000 will fall due,
and we recommend that they should be renewed. There
are no financial reasons why they should not be renewed.
I think I have now told the committee everything. I
hope it will approve of the proposition for the
reduction of the debt. (Cheers.) I am not an
alarmist, and don't wake up in the morning to find our-
selves on the eve of a great European war. I have great
confidence in the judgment and sagacity of my noble
friend at the head of foreign affairs, who will carry out as
far as possible the policy of non-interference. Still, it is
impossible to shut the eye to the fact that Europe at pre-
sent is an armed camp; and though we may trust that we
will not engage in any unnecessary war, at the same time
who can speculate on the destinies of nations ? I think
that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer is called on to go
into the market to raise money, he will do so with a prouder
mien, and with greater facilities in the result, knowing that
in the days of our prosperity we made an honest attempt
at reduction in the national debt. (Cheers.) I hope that
the committee will sanction our proposals, and with that
observation I will take the liberty to propose the resolu-
tions. The right hon. gentleman, who concluded his state-
ment about 10 minutes to 6 o'clock, resumed his seat amidst
loud cheers.

A long and desultory conversation followed, embracing
all the topics touched on in the Budget, and lasting nearly