The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EV ENING, JUNE 1-2, 1858.

tation of our shores. (Hear.) The bon. and gallant ad-
spiral has alluded to some observations which I made on I
the probability of war, under certain circumstances',
with France ; but, without reviving any controversy on
those expressions, I may remind the house that that was
an opinion given upon the assumption that there were
sufficient, or at least important, causes at work, and had
been long at work, that might have produced so lament-
able and disastrous a result. At the present moment,
however, so far as France is concerned, we are not only
in frequent but constant communication, and if it were
the wish or supposed interest of France to pick
a quarrel with England, many opportunities might
easily be obtained, when we are combining together to
regulate the affairs of Europe under difficult circum-
stances, by which such an unfortunate state of affairs
might be brought about. I am bound to say, in answer
to this question of the hon. and gallant gentleman, that
he really has made no statement to the house by which
he can substantiate his assertion that vast warlike pre-
parations are being made by France at this moment by
sea and land. He has laid no foundation to induce the
house to believe that there is a state of affairs existing at
this moment with respect to our relations with that
Power under this particular head of armament different
from that which he admits existed a considerable time
since. No information has reached her Majesty's Go-
vernment that there are being made at this moment those
extraordinary preparations by sea and land of which he
has spoken. (Hear.) I need not reassure the house that
at the present moment the relations between the two
countries are of a cordial and confidential nature—(bear)
—and that at this moment we are acting with the prin-
cipal Powers of Europe, and especially with France, in
the management and regulation of most delicate and im-
portant interests, under circumstances which certainly
would seem to indicate that the object, and such I hope
will be the result, of all our labours is the maintenance
of the peace of Europe, and not its outrageous disturb-
ance, as the hon. and gallant admiral has anticipated.
But, though the gallant admiral has limited his questions
to inquiries as to some parts of Europe, he has travelled
across the Atlantic and reminded us that troubles are
preparing for us in America. Unquestionably the house
ie now familiar with the circumstances. It is possible
that,. from the excited state of feeling that prevails in the
Uuited States upon a particular subject, embarrassing
and even mischievous results might occur in the interval
that would elapse before communications from this coun-
try had reached the Government of America. But these
are accidents which no policy can possibly guard
against ; and, remembering the natural sympathy
that exists between the citizens of the United States
and the subjects of her Majesty, and that between
the existing Government of the United States and her
Majesty's Government upon all the great principles of
policy which should regulate their relations there is a
complete accordance, I will not anticipate that those em-
barrassing and mischievous accidents would occur. I
will hope that, these unfortunate accidents not taking
place, there would be that which I am convinced will be
the result, a complete understanding between the two
Governments upon those circumstances which have cer-
tainly fora moment placed our relations in considerable
(Jaeger. But, speaking generally upon the subject, what
I venture to impress upon the house is that it is not the
policy or the interest of England always to give credit to
foreign Governments for the worst intentions. (Loud
cheers.) I must repress my opinion that a policy—vigi-
lant I grant it should be, and vigilant I, on the part of
her Majesty's Government, pledge myself to the gallant
admiral it shall be—(cheers)—and firm, but at the same
tiiae conciliatory, just, adapted to settle all those ques-
tions of controversy that may arise between the different
nations and Governments, is more likely to adjust hap-
pily those differences than a policy of suspicion, which is
always ready to show to foreign nations that you do not
give them credit for those feelings upon which civilisa-
tion depends. (Cheers.) Now, we have had withiu the
last few hours a very significant proof, I think, of
the justice of my observations. Within these few hours
we have received a despatch which shows that a state of
affairs in one part of the world which caused us, I hesi-
tate not to say, great disquietude, and which I even
admit did seem to endanger the peaceful relations of Eu-
ropean States, has been happily terminated. (Hear.) We
have within these few hours received a despatch from
Naples, informing us that his Majesty the King of Naples
has granted and is prepared immediately to pay adequate
and I may say ample compensation to the English engi-
neers—(loud and repeated cheers)—and, more than
that, that the King of Naples has placed the
Sardinian ship Cagliari and the whole of its crew
at the disposal of the Queen of England. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. Lyons adds that on the next day the Neapolitan
officers were to call upon him to receive his instructions
as to the delivery of the Cagliari, and that he awaits the
instructions of my noble friend the Secretary of State fer
Foreign Affairs. In those instructions, which before the
house met were despatched to Naples, Mr. Lyons has
been instructed to deliver the Cagliari and its crew to
the command of its late captain, and the general super-
intendence of Mr. Barber, the consul, who throughout
this affair has conducted himself with so much spirit and
ability. (Cheers.) The Cagliari, under the command of
the same Sardinian captain, manned with the same Sar-
dinian crew, and under the general authority of Mr.
Barber, will sail to Genoa, and there Mr. Barber will
deliver the Cagliari and its crew to the authorities of the
King of Sardinia. (Loud cheers.) Now, but a very short
time ago these were circumstances that caused, and
justly, the greatest anxiety in the public mind—(hear);
and if we had pursued another course, which at the mo-
ment might have obtained considerable approbation, we
might have brought about results of a very different cha•
ratter, and have thrown Europe into confusion. Acting,
however, with firmness, but at the same time with con-
ciliation and in a spirit of justice, we have obtained this
most satisfactory conclusion of these troublesome affairs
and a new guarantee for the maintenance of the peace
Of Europe. (Oheers.) If there were those evil disposi-
tions which are attributed with so much facility to fo-
reign States, do not you think that they would have
seized this opportunity of throwing the greatest difficul-
ties in the way of the peaceful solution of this question ?
(Cheers.) But on the contrary, we have had, through-
out, the sympathies of this very Power to whom theze
evil dispositions are imputed. We have had the sympa•
thies of France, and have been able to bring to this most
satisfactary termination these difficult, and at one time
distressing, circumstances. Well, animated by seeing the
result of a policy such as I have described, I cannot con-
cur in the views which the gallant admiral has attempted
to enforce upon the house. This I will say—that, what-
ever may be the state of our alliances, the state of the
de fences of this country ought to be complete. (Cheers.)
C nsiderin our insular position, and the great wealth of
this country, we ought, totally independent of all diplo-
matic circumstances—totally irrespective of what may
be the results of a skilful and adroit policy—we ought,
abstractedly speaking, if I may use the expression, to
lay down as a first condition that England should be
adequately and completely defended. (Cheers.) Bat what
is adequate for the complete defence of the country must
be left to those who have the difficulty and responsibi-
lity of the direction of affairs. If we are wanting, if
events prove hat we are wanting, in thoughtful vigi-
lance or preparation upon this most important subject,
the consequence to us must be of the most awkward do •
scription. But I would ask the home to give us credit
for attempting, and I hope not unsuccessfully, to do our
duty in this important respect, and let the house believe
that the state of our ethane. s with the great Powers of
• Europe, although not free from difficulty and anxiety,
for that they never can be, is a state very encouraging
to the cause of peace. (Hear, hear.) Were they, how-
ever, of a very different character, the state of this coun-
try is such that we may confidently hope, under any cir-
cumstances, to be able to defend our shores and vindi-
cate our honour. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. BENTINCK thought that the right hon. gentle-
man had somewhat misapprehended the object of the
question of the hon. and gallant admiral. The right hon.
gentleman had told the house that he was not aware of
any extensive preparations being made abroad. Dlr.
Disraeli—" I said extraordinary, not extensive."] Very
well, extraordinary preparations, and he also added that
the relations between this country and foreign Powers
were of the most cordial description. Now, they had
been informed a short time ego by the right hon. gen-
tleman at the head of the Admiralty that, during a very
considerable portion of the tenure Qf office of the
late Government, the coasts of the country were
totally without defence. That statement, made a
very short time back, had received no contra.
diction from the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and
there-fore he was justified in assuming that such was the
case when the pre-ent Government t .ok office. He was
not going to raise the question as to what were exten-
sive or extraordinary preparations in neighbouring coun-
triee butsthis he mould say, that these pi epar tions had
been carried on for some time until this country had be-
come weak in relation- to other ccuetries. What the
hen. and gallant admiral wished to know, and he con-
curred with him in feeling anxiety for the information
which be sought, was whether in case of any unforeseen
emergency we should be able to defend the coasts of this
country. He did not impugn the zeal or ability of the
light bon. gentleman or his colleagues, but at the same
time he thought that house and the country had a right
to know upon what they depended for the defence of the
country. He did not anticipate a French in va:ion— (hear)
—but it was a disgraceful position for a country which
called itself the mistress of the seas to be actually in doubt
whether or no she was able to defend her own shores
The gallant admiral had not anticipated an Invasion, f it
he relied upon the good faith—and he quite concurred
in that opinion—of the Emperor of the French, which
pert aps, joined to his moderation, had prevented a col-
lision at a time when circumstances into which he should
not enter bad created strong feelings of irritation in the
two countiies. It might, however, happen that circum-
stances might arise when that distinguished man would
pot
have events within his own control ; and it was a most
fair and proper question, and one to which the
country had a rightaskthe to expect an answer, to Go-
vernment w
andwhe,thrhawtewwere the actual defences of the country,
stances, te defend position, under any circuni-
eoredei.:disnhuaores ? (Bear.)
Mr. LlNDAeele
„ion, but merely to state that,
rise to enter into a discus-
ao'.fhtlfor one bad be-n much
pleased with the statement
ha- s-own that lie weaCliancellor of the Ex ,
chequer, who h
tshperepared for de ft Lee I
against any invasion, and that, at
not wish to ental UE flee' sPary !rtme time, ho did
expenditure on the fund,'
Of the coul,try. Its rsgarded the navy, ti,„„,
W
that there were aimed:ince of ships, Lill twat'thereedtictilli
citify was in manning there, but in cave of invasion sea--
men from the merchant service would be ready to loan
• '0 for their hearths and homes (Rear.)
In ships and fi,ns• _see.)
invasion was a
In his o en opinion a French inraq nacre
isle
and it would be most desirable, if it count be
dream,
done instead of England building more ships because
.ei hewas afraid of France, or France building more ships
'from fear of England, to come to a mutual arrangement,
in there was no other maritime power of which either
of them could be afraid, to limit their naval forces to an
no count agreed upon by both.
Mr. BRIGHT said—The hon. gentleman below me
who introduced this matter has put a question to the

Government, and the hen. member for Norfolk has put 1
a question to everybody in this house. Now, I shall
just put one question to them, and I should be glad
some evening to receive a distinct answer to it. I want
know the precise expenditure or of force by land or sea
which is required in order to say that this country is
completely defended. (Hear.) It appear to me that
gentlemen who, from their profession should be the
last to take alarm are continually driving these I
terrors into the ears of peaceable non-military
persons like myself. (A laugh.) Only a few years
ago a sound of alarm of a French invasion had
been raised, and others kept succeeding it like the
claps of a thunderstorm in summer. Does the hon.
member opposite recollect that, not including the ex
pense of armaments, a much larger sum has been voted
during the present year for the national defences than,
I believe, ever has been spent in time of peace ? We
spend twice as much now as we did 20 years ago, al-
though, as far as any application of that expenditure
goes, we have not a single foot of territory more to defend
than we had then. I should like to know to what all
this tends, and to what length we are to go ; because, if
ever the unhappy day should arrive in my lifetime, when,
instead of spending 22,000,000/. on defensive armaments,
we shall be spending 44,000,0001., I undertake to prove,
by the same arguments as have been used by the two
gentlemen who have just addressed the house, that this
country is in a state of almost absolute want of defence.
I would undertake, with the map of England in my
hand, to indicate at least 100 points on which an enemy
might land ; I could also show that France was inha•
bited by a large population accustomed to war ; I could
talk about their avenging Waterloo, and all the other
stock stories which are regularly trotted out on
occasions of this nature, and I could establish then, as
clearly as can be established now, that we were run-
ning the greatest possible risk, and that the nation was
slumbering while it was on the edge of a most fearful
precipice. I know a certain old lady of 80 years of age
(a laugh), whom some people have been trying to frighten
within the last few days. A most plausible circular,
written by some professor—of what he is a professor I
can't say—was put by some simpleton before the some•
what dimmed eyes of this old lady; but she says, " I
am not at all alarmed, for I have lived in the world 80
years, and as long a I can recollect there has always
been a story afloat that there was going to be a French
invasion." (Laughter.) I dare ray hon. gentlemen
have read Horace Walpole's letters, in one of which—
I forget exactly its date, for my memory does not , erve
rue as to dates—an anecdote is told of there having
once been a great alarm about an invasion ; and it is
said there was found to be nothing in it,—that it was
used, as apothecaries say of something of which they
give very nauseous doses, as a " vehicle," the object of
those who compound it being to make the patient
"swallow the Hessians," (Laughter.) The case is just
the same now. There is an uneasiness in the country
relative to taxation. I had a letter this morning—which
I am very sorry I did not bring here with me—from
a small master cutler, probably a constituent of the
hon. and learned member for Sheffield. This man has a
large number of children, whom he has a hard struggle to
support ; his trade is bad ; and he says, " For Heaven's
sake let us try if possible to have a different foreign
policy, smaller armaments, fewer quarrels, lighter taxes,
and a better cLance for an industrious man to maintain
himself and his family. (Hear, hear.) I am asked by
persons in this hense, and some people out of doors—
who do not look very deeply into these matters, put the
same question to me—why do you show something like
favour to a Conservative Government, and why were
you accessory to putting the gentlemen now in opposi-
tion on their, present benches ? If I wanted an answer
to this it would be found in the speech which the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer has made to us to-night. (Cheers.)
These are not questions of aristocracy and democracy,
they are not questions of Conservatism and Radicalism ;
they are questions of the obvious interests of our coun-
try and of humanity at large. And I say a Government
that would adopt a foreign policy based on moderation
and justice is one that I should be disposed to see on
the Treasury bench, in preference to any other Govern-
ment which pretended to a great exhibition of English
power in all parts of the world, The right hon. gentle-
man has described what has been done with respect to
Naples. All the difficulty with respect to Naples arose
from the unseemly conduct pursued towards that country
a year and a-half ago by the English Government. It
is now at an end. The moderate and conciliatory policy
of England has been met by an equal moderation on the
part of the Neapolitan Government ; and that squabble
is now buried we hope for ever. We have another thing
at present on han-l—this American question, which I
presume is owing to the sending out of gunboats and
ships to the Cuban or West Indian station during the
last year, and also, I suppose, to the instructions issued
by the late Government, under which our commanders
in those waters, acting with what is called more vigour,
have done that which the United States' nation would
not stand any more than I am sure the English would
do under the like circumstances. (Hear.) Then we
have another matter in the China question, to which I
would ask the attention particularly of the hon. member
who introduced this subject. If you are to have 70 or,
as I think the right honourable gentleman said, 60 ,hips
of war in the Eastern seas, carrying on a quarrel 1
which you don't understand, and engaged in a com-
plication which you might have avoided,—if your are to
have all this great armament stationed at a distance of
10,000 or 15,000 miles from you,—l ask what amount
!' of revenue or of taxation which can possibly be rai-ed
will ever give you what you suppose you require—
namely, large fleets to defend your coasts at home ?
Now, the course which the Government have taken
in this matter is a truly Conservative course. There
ieno true Conservatism which is not based on a true
morality. And whether at home or abroad, I believe it
is possible for a Government, without bravado and with-
out boasting, to confer solid benefit on the country, and,
whatever may have been its past profession of politics, to
gain a substantial support from the people. I did
not intend to Lake more than one observation when I
rose ; but I have heard the statement of the right hon.
gentleman with extreme pleasure. I believe it will give
equal satisfaction throughout the country. (Cheers.) I
only hope the house and the nation will sustain the
present Government in every effort they may make to
restore our foreign relations to a state of tranquility and
safety, so that we may be able to turn our attention to
that from which we have been diverted for the last five
years—namely, the process of reducing our expenditure
in order, if possible, to render England a country which
all Englishmen shall prefer, rather than one from which
they have incessant inducements to emigrate to every
other part of the globe. (Cheers.)
Sir C. WOOD—I so entirely agree in what has been
said as to the inconvenience of raising general discus-
sions on foreign policy upon the formal motion for
adjournment till Monday, that I shall confine
my attention to the conduot of the late Govern-
ment, especially in the department with which I
was connected, which has been so much impugned
by the hon. members for Norfolk and for Birmingham.
The former hon. gentleman said that we left the country
in a most defenceless state, and that it was necessary
for our successors to make strenuous exertions in order
to replace the armaments of the country on something
like a proper footing. I appeal to the most unexception-
able testimony as to the utter erroneousness of this
representation. The noble eari at the head of the pre
sent Government himself admitted in another place that
he had been both surprised and gratified, at the period
of his accession to office, to learn that the impression
which had previously prevailed in regard to the national
defences was entirely unfounded, and that he had found
the country both by land and sea in a complete state of 1
defence. (Hear, hear.) Well, what has been the con-
duct of the present Government since then ? They very
properly took time to consider the estimates which we
had prepared, but which had not been actually voted
when they came into power, and the First Lord of the
Admiralty took votes on account several weeks before
he definitively brought forward the navy estimates,
And did the course which, after duo reflection, the
right hon. gentleman pursued indicate any belief
on his part that the country was inefficiently de-
fended 1 Why, he did not deem it necessary to re-
commend the addition of a single man to the nu.n-
her proposed by his predecessors—(hear, hear)—aud
t as to the votes for the dockyards and the building of
ships, he actually reduced the estimates which we hail
prepared. I said at the time that I thought the reduc-
tion injudicious, and I shall retain that opinion. Yet the
hon. member for Norfolk talks Of the Herculean labour
which we imposed on our successors.
Mr. BENTINCK explained that he had spoken of
the efforts that were necessary to place the defences of
the country in a positisn to meet an emergency when
the late Government left office.
Sir C. WOOD It is clear that the present Govern-
ment
theyieved tthheoungathitonparlopdefences d tuocebeo
our
am seanfte musth
condition,ave for
estimates. But I pass on to the assertion of the hon.
member for Birmingham, that whatever complications
might exist in America arose from the instructions sent
out by the late Government to the officers of the West
Indian station. Now, it is perfectly true that I sent
out additional gunboats to be employed in checking the
slave trade, which was raising its head again in those
waters ; but I can inform the hon. gentleman of what
he evidently cannot know—via., that no new instructions
whatever have been issued to our commanders in the
West Indies, and that those officers are still acting on
the instructions which were drawn up in the year 1844,
with a studious desire to avoid giving just cause of
offence, ands which were signed, I believe, by Sir G.
Cockburn. What I have said has been rather in the way
of caution ; but this a point on which some misappre-
hension has prevailed in the minds of hon. members,
and I am glad to have had this opportunity of stating
that nothing whatever was done by the Government with
which I was connected which could lead the officers in
command of vessels engaged in checking the slave trade
to do anything which' they would not Fare done any
time during the last 15 years. ([Tear, hear.) 1
Mr. lIEADLAM did not rise to answer the very diffi-
cult question proposed by the hon. member for Thrilling-
barn as to the cost at which the expense of the defence
of this country could be defrayed. Having regard to
the existing state of Europe and to the demands necce -
eerily made upon the forces of this country, he did not
think that they were at this moment greater than was
abs Mutely needed. Having early in the session taken
an active part in ceiling the attention of her Majest3 a
Government to the case of the British engineers le
Naples, and having urged upon them further steps than,
they then seemed disposed to adopt, he should not act
rightly towards them if, upon the announcement of th-
result of their negotiations, ho did not tender to them hie
congratulations upon their success, and his great satis-
f on at the favourable issue of their exertions. (Hear,
) With respect to the question of our decencess he
was not an alarmist. Re
entertained no fears 'of an' in-
how different the events of same
time,
vasion from France, but remembering
the last 10 years had been
from any which could have been anticipated, he thought

that we could not with confidence upon any predictions
as to what might occur in the future. (Hear, hear.) He
desired peace as ardently a .9 the hon. member for Bir-
mingham himself ; but he was convinced that the true
mode of securing tranquillity was for our Government on
all occasions to use firm and dignified language, and that
they could not do unless they felt that our defences wer I
adequate to the magnitude of the interests which had
to be protected, and to the importance of this country
in the world. Having heard with great satisfaction the
statement of the right hon. gentleman as to the termina-
tion of negociations at Naples, and many of the difficul-
ties in that matter having arisen from the suspension of
our diplomatic relations with that country, he should be
glad to bear that the whole affair was at an end, and
that those relations had been resumed. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel FRENCH asked the right hon. gentleman the
First Lord of the Admiralty when the commission upon
manning the navy would be issued. The names of the
members had for some time been known at the clubs. It
was said the commission was to consist of Lord Hard-
wicke, Admiral Martin, Lord Chandos, Mr. Lindsay,
Mr. Cardwell, Mr. Green, and Captain Shepherd. He
hoped that the usual course would. be followed, and that
his hon, and gallant friend (Sir C. Napier), who moved
for the appointment of the commission, would also be
placed upon it.

Sir J. PAKINGTON—The hon and gallant admiral
who commenced this discussion complained that although
three weeks have elapsed since he moved the appointment
of a royal commission to inquire into the manning of the
navy, it has not yet been issued. The commission is now
ready, the list of members is complete, and if there is
any further delay, it will only be such as is required in
order to comply with the various forms which must be
gone through before the commission can be made public
With regard to the statement that the names have been
currently talked of in the clubs, I can only say that such
ought not to have bean the case. I have never communi-
cated the names of those who were likely to serve on this
commission, except in confidence, and only in cases in
which such communication was unavoidable. How it was
that the names became known I cannot tell, but I have
no hesitation in saying that they ought not to have been
known. I have not authorised their publication, and I
will repeat what I said when a similar statement was
made by an hon. and gallant officer behind me (Admiral
Duncombe, that at the time he made:that statement one
of the names had not been officially settled. Consider-
ing the difficel-y which every hon. gentleman must
know attends the formation of a Royal commission, the
anxiety the Government must feel to appoint the
most competent persons, the frequency with which it
happens that those who are applied to are unable to
serve, and the fact that in this case the Whitsuntide
holidays immediately followed the adoption of the reso-
lution for the issuing of the commission, I hope that the
house will feel that the lapse of three weeks has not been
an unreasonable delay. (Hear, hear) I will now say
a few words in consequence of the extent to which the
hon. and gallant admiral opposite (Sir C. Napier) and
my hon. friend the member fur Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck)
have in the course of this discussion referred to the state
of the naval defences of this country. After what has
been said by my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, in every word of which I most heartily con-
cur, I shall say but a very few words. My hon. friend
the member for Norfolk, referred to what fell from me
two or three months ago in moving the navy estimates.
I then stated my opinion, which I am now fully prepared
to repeat, that it was not becoming the dignity 'of this
country, it was not consistent with its safety or security,
that our coasts should be left so destitute of naval de-
fence as they had been daring the winter months in con•
sequence of the detention of so large an amount of our
forces in China and India. (Hear.) I entertain these feel-
ings now as strongly as I did then ; but, in expressing
them, I do not thereby intimate the slightest doubt of
the loyalty and good faith of our ally the Emperor of
the French, or intend to convey either to this house or to
the public that I sympathise with the alarms of which I
have heard with great regret. (Hear.) If any such feel-
ings prevail in the public mind, it is undoubtedly natural,
and perhaps right, that they should find utterance in
this house ; but at the same time I feel, and I hope
the house will feel, that we cannot too strongly depre-
cate either speeches in this house or articles in news-
papers which tend to excite alarm in the public mind
when there is no just ground for such a feeling. (Cheers.)
I think hon. members will agree with me that the
only result of such speeches and such articles will
be to create two great dangers and evils—panic and
alarm—in the public mind in this city, and too probably
irritation in the mind of our allies the French, whom it
is our desire and our policy to conciliate in every honour-
able way. (Hear.) Consistently with these feelings,
and consistently with the opinion I have a!ready ex-
pressed that it is not becoming the dignity of England
that we should be without naval defences on our shores,
I can state that the present Government have from
their accession to office exerted themselves to the ut-
most to make those defences effective, not from any
alarm, not from any doubt of the loyalty of our allies,
but from a feeling that this country ought under all cir-
cumstances to be prepared for any emergency which
may arise, I am happy to say that the hon. and gallant
admiral in the course of his speech underrated—uninten-
tionally, I am sure—the naval power of this country ; and
I am bound to state that!at this time we could at the shortest
notice assemble in the Channel a fleet which would I be-
lie%e, be able to cope with any that any other Power
of Europe could send out, (Hear.) I feel it my
duty to make that statement, hoping that I shall not
be understood to imply any alarm, but the reverse:
The house has heard from my right hon. friend how
satisfactory is the present state of our foreign rel es
tions ; .and, in conclusion, I desire to say that while
on the one hand, the Government feel it to be their
imperative duty to take care that the naval defences
of this country shall be satisfactory, and shall be
worthy of its dignity and power, on the other we are
no less desirous of adopting with regard to all foreign
Powers a policy so conciliatory as to make any resort
to those defences quite unnecessary. (Hear.)

THE ARREST OF CAPTAIN JUDKINS—THE
CONSUL GENERAL OF BELGRADE—COM•
PENSATION TO THE ENGLISH ENGINEERS.
Mr. HORSFALL, in calling the attention of the
house to the arrest of Captain Judkins, of the Rayal
mail steamer Persia, in New York, on the 16th of May
last, said that though Captain Judkins had been libe-
rated on bail, he was bound to go back to America in
order to stand his trial. Captain Judkins in obeying
the sanitary laws of New York—a case of smallpox
having occurred on board his ship —refused to permit an
American custom-house officer to go on shore, and for
this he was arrested. The peculiarity of his case was
this, that while obeying the law of the state of New
York he violated the law of the United States ; but it
was extremely hard upon Captain Judkins that he
should be made to suffer from this conflict of the Ame-
rican laws. The Mayor of New York said that if Cap-
tain Judkins bad acted other wise than he had he would
have subjected himself to punishment by fine and im-
prisonment. He hoped that her Majesty's Government
would use their friendly interference to have this un-
just proceeding against Captain Judkins quashed, and
what was of still more importance, to prevent a recur-
rence of any similar proceeding. (Hear.)
Viscount BURY, referring to the telegraphic despatch
which stated that an attack had been made on the British
Consul-General of Belgrade on the 7th of June, asked
whether the Government bad received any informa ion
on the subject ? _ _

Mr. RIDLEY asked how much had been granted by
way of compensation to the two English engineers, and
whether the King of Naples had granted the compensa.
Lion of his own mere motion, without the concession of
any third party ?
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said that the Government bad
no knowledge of the circumstances connected with the
case of Capt. Judkins, but from the statement of the
li ,n. gentleman there could be no deubt that he was
placed in an unfair position. His case would receive the
anxious attention of the Government, and every repre-
sentation, such as his hon. friend desired, would be made,
and he had the fullest confidence, from the administra-
tion of the law and ihe sense of justice prevailing in the
United States, that Captain Judkins would receive en-
tire satisfaction. (Gear, hear.) With regard to the
attack on the British Consul at Belgrade, her Majesty's
Government had received a similar telegraphic message
to that referred to by the noble lord, and immediately on
receipt of that message latr Majesty's Government sent
a telegraphic message to Mr Colquhouu, the British
consul at Bucharest, to proceed to Belgrade to inquire
into the circumstance, and to take such stops as might
be necessary. (Cheers.) With regard to the third ques-
tion, he could not say—because he possessed no know-
ledge of it—whether any communication had pais
between any other powers and the court of Naples*. He
could only say that the redress afforded was in answer
to a categorical demand made by the Foreign oce, and
sent by office,
a messenger, who was directed to wait ten days
for a reply, and to return at once if no satisfactory reply
was given. (Hear, bear.) A satisfactory reply was
given, and the sum paid as compensation to the engi-
neers was 3,0001. (Loud cheers.)
THE INDIAN DOCUMENTS.

Sir E. PERRY hoped th t he noble lord (Lord;Stanley)
would reconsider his decision with respect to the Indian
despatches, and that he would publish those ho had re-
ceived without waiting for their arriv:l iu an official
form.

that the word " more" be inserted before the words
" than twelve."

Lord J. RUSSELL, after referring to the last discus-
sion relative to the number of the council, moved that
the council should consist of not leas than twelve mem-
bers, and said it was necessary, before the committee
agreed to the number, they should first consider
the nature and duties of the council they were
about to form. The committee had decided there should
be a council presided over either by a Secretary of State
or the President of the Board of Control, and various
questions arose as to the constitution of the council. It
was necessary they should in the first place form a clear
notion for what purpose they proposed the council.
(Hear, hear.) He considered it should be a council con-
sisting of persons of high character, and it was a ques-
tion with many whether the council should be composed
of a half or a greater portion of persona of Indian ex-
perience. There were many persons who had served in
India, who had ruled over millions, and whose decrees
were decisive, it would be desirable to have in th's coun-
cil, but they were averse to accepting subordinate situa-
tions, or such as they thought derogatory for them to
accept—such as Mouutstuart Elphinstone and Metcalfe.
They must take care, both with regard to the position,
salary, and tenure of those offices, they should be such
as men of high distinction would be willing to accept.
With regard to the number of the council, it was desir-
able they should not have a larger number than they
would require for the due transaction of the business.
Her Majesty's Government having intimated that the
number should not be less than twelve, he thought that
with regard to the division of businees into four com-
mittees, three to each committee, that the business
might be carefully and deliberately conducted—viz., one
committee for finance, one for the army and navy, one
for the internal government of India, compromising the
administration of justice, and one for foreign affairs;
but in order to enable such men as he had named to
transact the business, it would be necessary to provide
each committee with an able secretary, which would be
upon the principle of transacting the business of the
Colonial-office—viz., each department was under the
direction of an able man. All the members of the coun-
cil should bold a State dignity, such, for instance, as
privy councillors; and he thought they ought not to pre-
clude the members of the council from having seats in that
house—(hear)—any more than the members of the pre-
sent Court of Directors. (Hoar.) The salary proposed by
her Majesty's Government for the members of the coun-
cil wa' 1,0001. each, and as some persons possessed,
probably, au absurd feeling that the importance of an
office was measured by the amount of salary, he sug-
gested that the amount should be 1,5001., a-year. And,
as her Majesty's Government had intended eighteen
councillors at 1,0001. a-year, if the committee agreed to
twelve with a salary of 1,5001. it would increase the
salaries without any increase of contemplated expeuee.
The secret committee, established in 1793, ought not to
be continued. The members of the council ought to
possess the confidence of that house and of the country,
and they should be entrusted with the whole knowledge
of the affairs of India. All despatches ought to be laid
before them, and the Secretary of State should be bound
by them—(hear, hear)—the responsibility of final de-
cision resting with him. (Hear.) In fitting out our
armaments the expense should first fall upon this coun-
try, but finally upon the territories and people of India.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to patronage, in order to get
rid of any suspicion that the members of the council gave
the preference to their relatives and friends over persons
of greater merit, and to prevent its accumulation in the
hands of the Secretary of State, he thought it would be
desirable to throw the appointments open to free elm-
petition. (Hear, hear.) The military and civil services
of India were mist distinguished services, and the promp-
titude, intelligence, and courage exhibited by the officers
of the Indian service on the breaking out of the mutiny,
under circumstances unexpected, showed that no danger
however appalling, deprived them of the power of com-
manding and directing their thoughts and energies to
what required to be done on so great an emergency.
(Cheers.) Another great subject that must come under
the consideration of the committee was the administra-
tion of justice in India. (Hear, hear.) These were
matters which would require, when the committee was
appoiute 3, full consideration. He thought it would
be unwise during the present year to attempt an➢
great measure of legislation ; but he was anxious that a
step should be taken for transferring the government of
India to the Crown this session, in order that at the
next meeting of parliament the attention of the Govern-
ment might be directed seriously to the consideration of
ell "questions affecting the interests of the people. (Hear,
hear.) He concluded by moving that the members of
the council should not exceed twelve.

Sir J. GRAHAM thought it desirable that the noble
lord should state in what manner it was proposed to
nominate the members of the council, and what was
their length of the proposed tenure.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would suggest that
the nomination should for the most part rest with the
Crown. If the nomination were put in the bill he would
not object to such a course, reserving to himself the
right of objecting to any name that might be proposed.
Ili, thought that the best tenure of office would be good
behaviour, and he thought that was real)/ the best tenure
that could be adopted with respect to the members of
the council. If it was the opinion of the committee that
there should be a term of years, he thought it ought not
to be leas than ten years,

Mr. ELLICE wished to know whether the noL•le lord
proposed that all the appointments in India should be
made abAo'utrly by the Crown;

Lord JOIIN-RifSSELL said that he would suggest
thAt the office of governor-general and the heads of the
three presidencies should be absolutely appointed by the
Crown.

Lord STANLEY said that to make the question before
the committee intelligible, he would move to insert the
words, " not more than 15." The noble lord had raised a
groat number of questions, but, however desirable it
might be to ascertain the opinions of members on these
points, he must remind the house of the inconvenient
position in which they would be by discussing all
those pOints when they would have to vote simply
as to the number of the council. The entire matter
would have to be debated over again when they came
to consider the resolution regulating the constitution and
duties of the council, at the same time be admitted it was
not easy to decide what the number ought to be without
some consideration as to the nature of their duties. He
agreed with the noble lord that the council should consist
of men of high character and position, and of experience in
India, and that men of that class would not join in a body
in which they would be placed in a position inferior to
men who have not filled such great and important offices.
As to the number of committees, and the secretary to each,
these were matters of mere departmental detail, which the
house could not decide, but must be determined by those
closely and intimately acquainted with the working of the
department. The noble lord seemed to think that in future
years the business would be transacted more in India, and
less every year sent home. That was a difficult question;
and, from his limited practical experience, he would not
venture to decide, but he was not very sanguine as to a
reduction of business. To have an effective supervision in
important matters, they should have the habit of supervi-
sion, and to keep up the habit it would be necessary to ex-
tend it over a variety of matters of mere detail. Any one
who was acquainted with the business of a department—
even one far less extensive and important than that of the
Indian Government—must be aware that any change in
the business of that department was always a matter of
some difficulty and some inconvenience; and to effect a
sudden change was incompatible with the due performance
of public duties. He thought, therefore. that however
some of them might look forward to a reduction in the
amount of business to be performed in the Indian depart-
meat in future years, they had no right to speculate upon
that ; but if, 10 or 15 years hence, it was found that in
consequence of the new arrangements the amount of busi-
ness was less than it had been, Parliament would no doubt
diminish the number of the council in proportion to the
diminution in the amount of work to be done. As re-
garded the question raised by the noble lord, whether the
members of the council ought to have the title of privy
councillors, he thought it was rather a suggestion
thrown out by him than a question on which ho expected
the committee to express an opinion. He was not at all
averse to entertain a proposition of that nature. He
felt very strongly that it they were to have an Indian coun-
cil—and the house had affirmed, and he thought wisely,
that a council was necessary—it was very important that
no means should be left unemployed to give the-members
of this council a position of dignity in the eyes of the coun-
try. With regard to the much wider question, whether the
members of this council might sit in Parliament, he thought
that. was a question on which there might very fairgrounds
of argument either way. He knew it might be contended
that, both for the sake of that houseand for the sake of the
body which it was proposed to constitute, they ought not
to exclu lo those whose ambition would load them to desire
a seat both in that house and in the council ; but, on the
whole, recollecting what the noble lord had said—and in
that he quite agreed—that the functions of the proposed
council were to be, as regarded the departmental affairs of
India, the functions of a cabinet; considering that the noble
lord proposed —and !there also he agreed with him—that
should be no exclusive secret committee, but that all the
members of the council should have a right to be informed
of all that passed with regard to Indian affairs, this seemed
to him to furnish a very valid argument against the admis-
sion of these gentlemen to seats in that house. Although
he was quite ready to a Imit that no mere party quarrel
would or ought to lead to a want of harmony between the
minister for India and his council, still they must bear in
mind that that was not only an English question, but that
questions of Indian policy would be very frequently dis•
cussed in that house, and he did not see how a confidential
council was to work if, when such questions came to be
discussed, the minister, acting on his own responsibility,
contended for the view which he might conscientiously
take, and those who were infoimed of all that was being
done, and who were at the same time his secret and con-
scientious advisors, with the advantage of the knowledge
which they possessed, took a course directly the oppcsite of
that minister. (Hear.) It seemed to him that, considering
the duties which it was intended for to impose
upon alO council, a man of delicate feelings,
hiving weighed the responsibilities of birth positions,
would not desire to act as a member of that house,
because either his official position must compel him to con-
ceel his convictions with regard to questions of Indian
policy which might bo discussed, or else his faithful per-
formance of l'crltam,ntary duties with regard to matters
of Indian policy would make him a very ii?coh
regard nvenient co
the
l-
league of the Alluister. (Hoar, hear.)
salary of the orancillors, the noble lord (Lord J. Russell)
Wit to
thought that 1,0001. a year would not be enough, and pro-
poses! 2 0 'Ol. a year. He (Lord Stanley) quite admitted
,
that expense ought not to be considered
_so much as effi-
ciency ; but it should be Lorne in mind that every ono who
retired from the Indian service had a retiring pension, to
which the salary of such an officer as that uncle!. considera-
ti ,it would b au addition. tie thought that, in fixing the
amount of remuneration at 1,000/. a year, the intention
was not so mach to pay the councillors for the amount of
service done as to give a fair compensation for the addi-
tional expense to which they would be put by habitual re-
sidence in London. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord entered
into the wide and difficult question of patronage. Having
touched upon that question the other night, he (Lord
Stanley) would not en' er into it at length now. He had
never said that open competition was not a means of ob-
taining efficient officers for the Indian army. What he

hal said, and what he now repeated, was this, that look- I
ing at the system as an experiment—and it was an experie
ment, which from the first had his fullest sympathies when
it was proposed in that house—and looking at the fact
that it was an experiment of such recent introduction, he
did not think it was so universally good for the military
as for the civil service. Ho did not think it desirable to
decide that no person should enter the Indian army with-
out having submitted to competitive examination. (Hear,
hear.) There was a large number of persons in the country
in whom were combined considerable activity and a great
desire for honour and distinction, with intellec' ual facul-
ties which were not of a very high order ' • and these were
men who, not caring for civil service, and yet being de-
sirous of obtaining distinction, were prepared to im-
peril and sacrifice their ives in the military
service. (Hear, hear.) This was a very useful class of
persons, and he thought it was not desirable alto-
gether to exclude them. Now he did not intend to pro-
pose in detail a plan with regard to the disposal of patron-
age, but it had occurred to him that it might be dealt
with in some such manner as this. The government could
have no objection whatever to the trial of that plan of
open competition with regard to some portion of the
military service which had been already adopted in re-
ference to the civil service. All he contended for at pre-
sent was that it should not be the only means of admission.
He thought, for instance, that if patronage were divided
into a certain number of shares, as at present, the number
of admissions over and above those shared at present,
arising from the difference between the number of direc-
tors and the number of the council, might be fairly left
for open competition. There was one observation of the
noble lord to which he would advert, because it showed
the intrinsic difficulties of the question. The noble lord
felt that a purely literary competition was not the right
means of obtaining the most efficient officers. He there-
fore proposed that there should he competition of another
description—of what description he did not say ; but he
(Lord Stanley) supposed the noble lord referred partly to
physical attainments, which, in the case of the army, were
equally necessary with intellectual ones. Now, there was
the difficulty of dealing with this matter. So long as they
were dealing with the civil service, where the test was
purely literary or intellectual, there was no room for
favouritism or partiality on the part of the examiners,
the functions exercised being purely judicial; but by en-
larging the functions of the examiners they would open
the door to suspicion, and the result might be to throw
discredit on that which, in its application to the civil
service, was liable to no such objection. Ho bad no ob-
jection to competitive examinations being made one mode
of admission into the army, but he thought it would be,
to say the least, premature to make it the only door of
entrance. Something was sail by the noble lord with
regard to the duties to be performed by the council
in the way of making laws for India. On that sub-
ject be thought the noble lord had attributed to
the council the functions which would belong to
the legislative council of India; and he apprehended
that now that a considerable share of power was being
given to the council, it was very important that no colli-
sion should occur between the two bodies. The noble lord
next touched upon the question of tenure • and on that
point he would state what was the opinion of the Govern-
ment. He thought the question between nomination and
election, or between a long term and a short one, was a
question relating to different modes of attaining the same
end, the importance of which every one felt, namely, that
of insarine• the known independence of the council. Now,
of all the plans which had been proposed-- he said this with
all courtesy towards the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton--the plan of combining a short tenure of office with
the principle of re-election would virtually place the coun-
cil in a position in which they would be much more subor-
dinate to the minister than those permanent civil servants
in the public offices who were designated by the humble
title of clerks. Although, theoretically, any one of those
clerks might be dismissed, practically, through the force
of public opinion, no dismissal ever took place except for
proved incapacity or misconduct, while under the bill of
the noble lord the Minister need have no scruple in getting
rid of councillors at the end of their term of office. (Hear.)
Now there were, as it appeared to him, only two methods
of securing the independence of the council. One of these
means—and this would be put forward in a subsequent
resolution—was to leave it to be elected partly by a con-
stituency to be named ; the other was to leave it to be
nominated by the Crown, to hold office either for a long
term of years or during good conduct. He thought that
either of those moans would attain in a sufficient degree
the object proposed. He was of opinion that the elective
system would attain it the more thoroughly of the two ;
but though be should submit that proposition to the judg-
ment of the house, he could nut shut his eyes to the ex-
treme difficulty of finding any constituency which
this country would approve. He did not think that
difficulty was absolutely indispensable, but it was a
difficulty which was strongly against the adoption of
the elective principle. If the elective principle should not
obtain the assent of the committee, the next best means of
ensuring the independence of the council was,he thought,the
adoption of the proposition of the noble lord the member
for London, viz., that the members of the council should
hold their offices during good behaviour. He had now gone
through the main points of the noble lord's address, and
though he was not certain that his doing so was strictly
regular, considering the nature of the question under dis-
cussion, he hadithought it best that there should be no he-
sitation or delay in stating the views of the Government.
Mr. V. SMITH complained of the inconvenience of this
irregular mode of discussing a number of questions con-
nected with India, which were not immediately involved
in the question before the committee. He thought that
the notion of having committees for business was a cum-
brous one, and it was an arrangement that was not re-
quired. On the contrary, what was needed was a council
of advice. It was his opinion that much gain of time
would be 'effected by the coalescing of the two bodies at
Cannon-row and Leadenhall-street, rather than by having
two boards acting in rivalry with each other. What was
bmwt 1
ai ai
re
nomination
tn
tp businesst
e ere
proceeded
it
c,
oe brew ed tfoehe
outdrwol theedtastoesbb creetrerefcfahoteonaourursnninat sedocces
it:le, ahh(iadecidednohdtbeeyvid the
chiefhe une practicallyp occelehen
thoughtroa ktif chairman
thehi
arm.
tTetnihJ. C.
numbersroeechfaoo.ttif ihm.
bulk
service
om
rief
vvootiir
Imhicol
eeEf
duties of the proposed council. He should like to know
what was the exact, amount of business transacted by the
committees of the directors at the India house, for he be-
lievedfor the council,purposewasa
clearof s h oaen idngthe explicitdelays sta t
ewhich t toofo kt hplace exactin
it
nh
eel i receiving
the
opinion
n transmissionion
that
e ieight
oft o
or
tdespatcheswelva members toan d
at from
India
w as glad
connected
to the with thengoobe
government
en
wast
o f the
inclined
country.
to pause
The
before he opened the military service to competition. He
average attendance of directors he believed was, according
to the evidence of Sir J. C. Melvin, about six, and be was
hear m
most would be sufficient to constitute the new council.
He
agreed with his noble Mend the member for the city of
• London that in that service physical qualifications were of
as much importance as intellectual. With regard to the
ought to be fixed, and in order to make the council inde-
, pendent they should be ineligible for reappointment. He
hoped the number would be limited to eight, at the out-
, side.

Mr. T. BARING —The question as he understood it, was
a proposition that the number of the council should be not
more than 15 ; and if so, the original words would nearly
have met the case, by providing that the council should be
not more than 18 nor less than 12. It had been stated that
there was a vast quantity of uninteresting matter brought
before the existing committees, and thought it would he
better to do away with the system. He referred to Sir J.
tlelvill and Mr. J. S. Mill; but how did they obtain their
information but from the mass of details which came before
them. Though there might be a question whether the
amount of details might not be diminished, yet he should
be sorry if any council ceased to obtain that constant sup-
ply of records of fact as to Indie, for he believed it was the
only way to ascertain the conduct of its administration in
India. If at any time they ceased to claim those constant
' reports they would find the officials in India very ready to
refrain from what caused them great trouble ; but if they
did not have those reports they could not ascertain how
the principles of government were carried into effect. He
did not hear from the noble lord the member for London,
nor from the.noble lord the President of the Board of Con-
trol, whether the intention was that this council should
have frequent periodical and continuous sittings, and he
must say that as far as he had been able to form an opin-
ion he believed that the best government, if there was to
a change, would be to a lent the same system in Eng-
I land as was adopted in India, that there should bete Pre-
sident in Council, that the matter in question should
, be voted first by a majority, but still leaving the Presi-
dent in Council the power to overthrow thatmajority, even
though they wore unanimous against him, and to act on
his own opinion, provided he recorded his reasons for so
doing. There was no magic in any particular number of
the members, and he was not sure that if they had only 12
members that they would be all efficient men. I£ they
transacted their business in committees, and had three
committees, they would reduce the number of the mere-
hers of the committees to a very low amount, such as would
not allow for the ordinary casualties, such as sickness. The
present course, he believed, was for the chairman of the
committee to explain the report of the committee to the
directors, and then, if any further information was wanted
it was asked for. It was, in fact, a regular council. It had
been said that in consequence of cumbrous machinery you
could 'not have an answer to a despatch under nine
months, but Sir J. Molvill stated that he knew cases
where answers had been sent out by the next mail. There
was promptitude where it was necessary. Ho spoke with
the greatest diffidence on this subject, but after listening
with the greatest deference to what fell from the two noble
lords, he confessed that he should very mach regret if
there was a constant communication of every proceeding
in India to the home government—(hear, hear)—for he
believed that that was a great check on the government
there. With regard to the question of salary, he did not
think that the difference of a few thousand pounds a year
would be any serious obstacle in the way of adopting a
larger number of councillors. es ny honour, he thought—
in the shape of being made privy councillors, for instance
—would, he thought, be very desirable ; but if it was
thought that would attract gentlemen from India to be-
come councillors more than a seat in Parliament would,lhe
very much doubted the correctness of that assumption.
The scheme hardly involved the question of giving an indi-
vidual a proper compensation for his services, but it was
very desirable that they should be placed beyond any
temptation, and beyond the pressure of limited means.
(Hear, hear.) He did not feel competent to give an
opinion as to members of the council being in Parliament,
but it would be a useful means of obtaining information
by questioning those members. The object must be to
make an independent as well as an efficient council.
As to choice of councillors by election, he doubted
whether it would work. He believed that if they were no-
minated for a period of years or for life, it would be more
likely than any other mope to ensure an independent coun-
cil. There was another question brought before the com-
mittee, one of very great difficulty—he alluded to the
question of patronage. There were two kinds of patronage,
nomination in England and aeterwares promotion in India.
(Hear.) They might be able perhaps to prevent by open
competition any charge of favourit em in the first instance,
but they did not exclude by open competition the favour
of the minister being sought for afterwards. There would
be applications from friends of the minister, from his sup-
porters in that house, and from constituents of supporters,fair
asking him, not perhaps for preference,
chance to a particular young man,to
and if he had merits
but to give a
promote him. Similar influence would be used with gove.-
core in India, and hodid not know how it was guardedtcbehair
against. It might be said that the Court of Directors
over
done the same, but nobody had any permanent
Government rcontrol
them. They had not yet heard from
the
had
.
what wore to bo the duties of the couicila;
permanenttheh a
not heard whether they were to act asi
council sitting regularly with the president council; nor
whether ih‘y were to be divided into committees, or to be
merely the heads of departments. If they wished to have
every province in some degree represented in council, he
did not thind 18 would be too many.
The CHAIRMAN said it might b 3 convenient to put ,
the question in form : it was, that the word more' be
inserted in the terms of the resolution.
Lord STANLEY wished to explain. The resolution had
been accidentally left in a very incomplete state on a for-

mer evening, and it was now proposed to insert the word
" more." When that amendment had been agreed to, he
would propose to insert the words "than 15," and the ques-
tion of number would then be fairly before the committee.
The question that the word " more" should be inserted
was put and agreed to.
Lord STANLEY said he would now propose to insert
the words " than 15," and iu so doing ho would merely say
that the really necessary number could only be ascertained
by the practical working of the system. He would ask
power to make the number as large as 15, but if it should
appear hereafter that that number was not necessary, he
did not wish to pledge the committee to the appointment
of so many.
On the question being put,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would adhere to his number
of 12.

Mr. C. BRUCE said all their discussions had gone to
prove that it was much easier to pull down than to build
up a system ; and that the old adage, " More haste less
speed" was applicable to their proceedings. He thought
that 15 was not a number which could adequately and
efficiently discharge the duty which would devolve upon
them. India was su vast that a man might reside for
years in one part, and yet know nothing of any other
part. He certainly thought that any less number than
18 would not be sufficient for the council. One great use
of a council would be to act as a check upon the minister
himself in the discharge of his duty. If he was sure that
the noble lord would always be President of the Council
he should have every confidence in that quality of his
mind which would induce him to reject anything like
jobbery or favouritism in the discharge of his duty—
(hear, hear)— but the noble lord would not always be at
the head of the council. They all remembered the case of
that prince of intriguers, Meer Ali Moorad, of Scinde,
who, though he had to deal with persons in India of great
ability, was so clever as to deceive them all, including the
great general who conquered Scinde, and Lord Ellen-
borough. When such things had happened they wanted
a council sufficiently independent and numerous to check
the administration. He regretted from the bottom of his
heart the retirement of Lord Ellenborough, for they could
not have a man more competent to deal with Indian
matters—(hear, hear)—but still he bad great confidence in
his successor, knowing as he did, his great ability. He
would entreat the noble lord not to come too hastily to a
conclusion as to the number of the council, considering
that there were six great divisions of territory—Bengal,
Madras, Bombay, Scinde, the North Western Provinces,
and Burmah—and that there were six departments of
St•tte—the military, financial, judicial, public works,
police, and home administration. They could not divide
the council into less than six departments, and to consti-
tute a perfect council there should be one member well
acquainted with each department. In introducing the
present bill the present Government could not be accused
of a desire to grasp to patronage. The elective prin-
ciple in the council, which, he thought, do much to se-
cure its independence. But 18 members, in his opinion,
ought to be the minimum of the council. The hon.
member complimented the present Government upon the
satisfactory exercise of power observable since their acces-
sion to power, both with regard to our foreign relations
and the faith they had kept with the country on financial
matters—(hear)—and stated his readiness to support this
measure as an earnest of their general policy. (Hear.) _

.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE considered that the numbers of
the new council ought very much to depend on whether
the council strictly confined themselves to the duties of
their office, and whether they would or would not have
seats in Parliament. (Hear.) He attached the greatest
importance to this last point, and declared a decided lean-
ing towards the view that members of the council should
be eligible to sit in the House of Commons. One source
of weakness of the existing board of directors lay in their
being so much severed from the executive, and the active
deliberations of Government. It would not at all follow
that members of the council who were at the same time
members of Parliament would be partisans. Experience
had proved the contrary. (Hear.) Gentlemen represent-
ing Leadenhall-street had shown censiderable abstinence
in obtruding any peculiar views, and had exhibited a gene-
ral desire to assist the Minister of the day in measures
affecting the real interests of India. The house, he thought,
ought to exercise great caution indiminishing thenumbers
of the council, and he believed that the hon. member for
Northampton would come round to his view. The " ob-
structiveness" of the present board of directors really
meant a substantial check upon the Government. By
diminishing the number of the council that check would
be required.
Sir C. WOOD quite agreed with his noble friend the
member for London, that the constitution of the council
was the most important point in the proposition. The
question of numbers of the council could not be discussed
without considering what were to be the functions which
they would have to discharge. The real question before
the house was the alternative between 12 and 15, although
the hon. member for Elgin was in favour of 18. His own
opinion was that the number of 15 ought not to be ex-
ceeded. (Hear.) He agreed with the hon. member for
Huntingdon that one of the principal functions of the
council ought to consist of a review of the transactions of
the Indian Government. (Hear.) He agreed that the
Indian Government ought to be carried on principally in
India, but the new council ought to be enabled to act as a
check upon the proceedings of that Government. Undoubt-
edly the greater part of the details of Indian government
were prepared by such men as Sir James Melvill and Mr.
John Mill, and such individuals would constitute the best
English element that could be introduced. (Hear, hear.)
But he thought that the council ought to consist princi-
pally of persons intimately connected with Indian affairs.
Believing that the members of the council ought to devote
themselves exclusively to the duties of their office, he was
opposed to their having the privilege to sit in Parliament.
The Government of India would, he thought, be the best
judge of the eligibility of individuals to be placed upon the
council. • If the council were not to sir in Parliament, it
would be a much more easy task to settle the numbers which
should compose it. He did not think that the change in the
bill of 1853, by which the old number of twenty-four was
' reduced, had at all impaired the efficiency of the present
council. The practical effect of placing the direction in the
hands of a large number would be to throw the actual work
into the hands of two or three of the more active members,
whereas a small council would be more likely to transact the
business themselves. He laid little stress upon the argument
against the principle of nomination, believing that no Eng-
lish gentleman would sacrifice his own conscientious opi-
nions for the mere sake of retaining a seat in the Indian
Government. (Hear, hear.) The antecedents of Indian
officials was quite opposed to this apprehension. He
was of opinion that the appointment of the council should
not be for too long a period, because that would prevent
the infusion of new blood. With regard to the number,
he thought that twelve would be sufficient. Then,
again, was the Minister to be responsible, or was he to
have a council for a screen ? He thought the Minister
should be responsible. If they were to have a responsible
Minister, Parliament should give him every assistance in
its power. They could never have responsibility without
conferring power. When he was President of the Board of
Control he always sent to the directors whom he thought
beat able to advise, and he must say that on every occasion
he received the readiest assistance from that body. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said the resolution before the house re-
ferred to the question whether the council should consist
of 12 or 15. The bon. and learned member for Sheffield
held that there should be no council, and he was inclined
to agree with him. The noble lord (Palmerston) proposed
eight, and he thought that would be a better number than
12, 15, or 18, and he hoped the noble lord would press his
view on that question. He thought the Minister would be
better off with a small than a large council, as there would
be fewer opportunities for party divisions. He was
of opinion that 15 privy councillors, with 1,5001. a year
each, would be too large a drain upcn the country, and he
believed that such a council would prove a complete
failure. For himself he would say that he should vote for
the smallest numberof councillors that might be proposed.
If the resolutions went on in this slow manner he did not
think they would be able to get through them by the time
it would be necessary to pay attention to the grouse in
Scotland. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said he did not often agree with
the hon. member—(laughter)--but on this question he
seemed to agree with him more than any one. He agreed
that the house in determining the number of the council
ought not to be led to an adherence to the old system, but
to get as far from it as possible. He still thought eight
was the best number, but as the feeling of the house
seemed to be in favour of a larger number, he would ac-
cept the number of 12. The house should remember that
this was a council of advice ; and if it was to overrule
and thwart the minister for India it was not possible for
hirn to be responsible to Parliament. The council
should bo so far independent as to be able to give the
best advice. But it was a mistake to suppose that
a subordinate was valuable who gave unsound advice to
) the head of his department in (prier to ingratiate himself
with him. It was the man who gave advice even against
his chief's opinion, for the purpose of assisting him out of
difficulty, that was to be valued and appreciated.
Sir. H. WILLOUGHBY thought there was no occasion
for the committee to fetter itself in reference to the mem-
bers ef the council when a bill had to be introduced. At
present they could not know what duties the council would
have to perform. Perhaps when they saw the bill they
would find that a council of one would be sufficient, and
then the President of the Board of Control would be a groat
Mogul. He thought that it would be time enough when
the bill was brought in and the functions of the council
were assigned, to determine upon the number. (Hear.)
At present they had no information as to what the council
would have to do, and therefore he was in favour of abid-
ing by the original proposition of her Majesty's Govern.
ment. He trusted that the house would not fetter itself
by a dogmatic adhesion to a given number of councillors.
Mr. ELLICE (Coventry) said the proceedings upon this
resolution had reminded him of a Dutch Auction. (
laugh.) The noble lord the member for Tiverton had at
first proposed that the council should consist of eight mem.
bars, but now he suggested twelve ; and his noble friend
the member for London, who permitted him (Mr. Ellice)
to discuss the subject with him, had to his knowledge two
or three opinions upon the matter. (Laughter.) The right
hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) had in introducing
the question made the most instructive speech he had
heard during the whole of these Indian debates ; but he
regretted to find that his bill did not bear out the promise
of the address by which it had been heralded. Even the
right hon. gentleman had never stated what the council
would have to do. In fact upon that point, he (Mr Ellice)
could collect nothing. His noble friend said it ought to be
a cabinet council ; the noble lord the member for Tiverton
told them that it would only have to give advice to the mi-
nister for India now and then, and the noble lord (the Pre-
sident of the Board of Control) said it would be a council of
greater weight. It surely seemed absurd to be settling
how many it was to consist of until they had defined its
duties. (Hear, hear.) For his own part he thought its
duties would be very onerous. They were told that the
government of India must bo in India ; but there never
was such a delusion as that. (Hear, hear.) If they at-
tempted to carry out such a notion the abuses must neces-
sarily be very great. Tney would immediately have a
number of little oligarchies of councils who would dispose
of the whole pa'ronage in the country amongst their
friends. (Hear, hear.) The council would have to be at
once a court of review and a court of appeal— it would
have to operate as a check upon the government of India,
and at the same time be a body to which both the nubile
servants and the natives of India might look for the redress
of any grievances they might have to complain of. Then
it would have to undertake large financial operations
amounting to five or six millions a year. Ie point of fact,
the managemeut of India was not a department—it was a
government itself. (Hear.) Under these circumstances
it would be most foolish to reduce the number of the
council too much. Sir James Melvill hail, on this point,
given most valuable and disinterested evidence. Ho said
that the number of the directors had been reduced as much
as was safe; and he advised that no further diminution
should be attempted. Considering the many important
questions which would have to be dealt with, the nature of
the encouragement to be given in future to missionaries,
the question of education, the reform of the army, and
many others, he di 1 not think they ought to cripple the
machinery of administration. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the
house was prepared at once to vote upon this resolution, and

thus to show that they were really in earnest on the subject
of carrying the measure. (Hear, hear.) The only question
they had then to consider was the number of which the
council should consist. His own opinion was that there
should be a minimum as well as a maximum named, and if
the motion of his noble friend were agreed to he should pro-
pose to insert the words, " and not less than 12 ;" if, on
the other hand, the noble lord's (Lord J. Russell's) amend-
ment were carried, he should propose that it ran " not
more and not less than 19." (Hear, hear.) They had been
asked and by no one more frequently than by the right
lion, gentleman (Mr. Ellice), what the council was to do ;
and the right hon. gentleman had, on every occasion,
answered his own question. Speaking generally, the
duties of the council would be the same as those which
were now performed by the Court of Directors. (Hear.)
There was no doubt that though they would no longer
sign the documents, they would often virtually originate
measures ; for they would lay the results of their ex-
perience and research before the minister, and he would
no doubt frequently adopt them. It would be a real
council, and he hoped it would also be an independent and
an influential one. (Hear, hear.) He would advert to one
or two pointed questions that had been put. As to the
finance of India and its relation to the new minister, it
would be the same as it was under the President of the
Board of Control. The new rni,ister would exercise no
more influence than the President of the Board of Control.
The elective principle would be dealt with in a subsequent
resolution. There ought to be a calm and dispassionate
decision on that question. All sides agreed in desiring to
secure the independence of the council; and whether this
was to be done by the elective principle it would be for the
house to decide after full consideration. Mr. Ellice had
asked what government intended to do about the organisa-
tion of the Indian army? The resolutions had nothing to
do with that. It must occupy the deliberation of cabinets,
and then no doubt measures would be taken adequate to
the occasion. The government ;r.eaut to issue a com-
mission to inquire into the w hole subject of the re-
organisation of the army ; a question cf that magnitude
could not be left to the home government alone. The
question now Lefore the committee had been fully dis-
cussed, and it was now ripe for a decision. It was im-
portant that the resolution should fix a minimum; and if
the amendment of the noble lord was carried he should
move that 12 be the minimum number of members of the
council.

The committee then divided on the question that the
word twelve stand part of the questi )n, when the nnm•
hers were—

Ayes
Noes 243
Majority
The announcement was receiv3kl with tremendous chews.
The word " 15" was then inserted.

The words " more than 18" were struck out.
Lord STANLEY then rose to move that the words
"not less than twelve" be inserted. G wernment had not
so far pledged themselves to a specific number, but as the
feeling of the committee was evidently that the minimum
should be twelve, they had determined so to limit it.
After some conversation, the commit tee agreed to the
addition of the words propos d, Ln t the resolution as
amended was passed.
Lord STANLEY then moved the next resolution, that
in order to secure the great amount of knowledge and ex-
perience in the management of the aff.irs of India it is ad-
visable that the principal portion of the members of the
council shall have served in India for a term of years to he,
limited by statute. It was not, however, the intention of
Government that the whole of the council should consist
of old Indians, but that there should be a certain admixture
of the English element.
Mr. GREGSON rose to move the insertion of the words
"or resided" after served, which he hoped the noble lord
would admit.

Lord STANLEY had no intention to exclude the civil
servants, and should not object to the addition of the words.
(Hear.)
Mr. LIDDELL agreed that there should be a mixture
of the English element, but they should have a pledge that
the members should be persons who had served in India.
He had not that faith in Governments that he would like
to see such important offices given up as matter of comps•
tition.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ■aid that
as the next resolution (the Gth) was one of importance,
and as several hon, gentlemen who were entitled to be
heard on it were absent, he proposed that they should not
proceed, with it now, but take it at the next morning sit•
tang on Thursday.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that he should move as
an amendment that the council be nominated by her
Majesty.
Sir J. SHELLEY said both this resolution and the Lou'
don Corporation Bill were fixed for that day, he would ask
which would be proceeded with ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Indian debate would be taken.

The Chairman then reported progress and obtained lea's
to sit again.

CHELSEA BRIDGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
Lord J. MANNERS moved the second reading of this
bill. He said therehad been some dissatisfaction expressed
by the inhabitants of the locality that a toll was put 011,,
the bridge. A bill was proposed by the late Govern's:lW
that would have abolished the toll entirely, but that bill
being submitted to a committee they declared the preamble
not proved. He now proposed that the toll should cease on
the receiptsof the bridge amounting to 37,00,/. The bridge
had been open ten weeks, and the receipts averaged 1301.
a week. On the whole, he thought there was a 'reasonable
probability of the debt being paid. (The greater portion
of the noble lord's statement was inaudible.)
Mr. BLACKBURN had not heard a single word of ,the,
noble lord's speech, and the majority of the commtrnie?
tient; might as well be marked private and confideittOit
This appeared to him as a proposal to make the inabitante,
of a local district a present of the interert on a sum a
money which had. been lent them. That interest would
amount to about 4001. a-year. The house had in a foolish
moment lent the money to a district, andthey now wanted
to break the bargain. (Hear, hear.) It was proposed last
year to excuse them entirely, but that was rejoined by the
committee. The present measure was an attempt to get
in the thin end of the wedge. He should move that the
bill be read a second time that day six months.
Sir B HALL said the bill which he had introduced lea
to abolish the foot toll. He would thus have given an jar
mediate relief, and still would have taken the principal
and interest—that is, if he could get them. (A laugh.)
Lord JOHN MANNERS explained that the bill would
abolish the foot toll only at the period when the sum ,
97,000/. due to the Exchequer Loan Commission, and made
up of an advance of 80,0001. and interest should have been
repaid. With regard to the 120,0001. made up of the G°'
vernment grants for building, &c., there had been no pled‘
of repayment, and he intended to treat those sumaß grant-
not as loans.
Mr. ALCOCK objected altogether to grants of Public'
money for local purposes, but the land, if sold by
would pay off the whole sum. That was assuming that the
Commissioners of Public Works now their business, but!!
for one had no confidence that they did know their busts
ness, or that they knew how to dispose of the land to thr
best advantage. If the land for sale was worth more the:
the debt, the noble lord had no right to maintain a toll 1
the bridge. He defied the noble lord to maintain the t o
suction:
Mr. P. O'BRIEN considered the real question at isago.
metro'
was, whether public money was to he advanced for
politan local improvements. He should certainly suP,llig.
the amendment of the hon. member opposite (Mr. Re'
burn). If this bridge must be male free, he could not
derstand why every other metropolitan bridge on will°
tolls were levied should not also be made free.
Sir J. SHELLEY denied that the bill had been brought
forward at the instigation of the metropolitan meteball*
At the same time he was determined to support the probe
sition to do away with the foot tolls on the bridge; fer,ho
believed that thereby the Government property on
Surrey side of the bridge would be so improved as to 00°,,
pensate the public for the loss of 4,0001., the amount eel
realised by the foot tolls; Let it be borne in mind tlisi
Battersca-park was constructed for the use of thew orbie:
classes, and it was an undoubted fact that the w0r123
classes were unable to use it on account of the tolls.
bill did not go so far as he desired, still he would sup_Pu;
it in the hope that when they got into committee Pi"
might improve it.
Mr. S. HERBERT would vote against the second read;
ing of the bill. He could not consent to the public welt,
being allocated for the creation of local improveniee""
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. LOCKE denied that a work like this could !re
considered as merely a local improvement. It was clel,o
clear that through the maintenance of the toll the prope:st;s
on both sides of the bridge was detrimental to value ; woo
if the toll were removed, the property would becoreto
enhanced in value as to repay the Government for the Tho
incurred by the surrender of the toll. As a step in the
right direction, he should most certainly support •
second reading of the bill.
Mr. SPOONER moved the adjournment of the debate
Lord PALMERSTON said his only complaint egeilion
the bill was that it postponed indefinitely the period sr Ir.
the working-classes should have access to Battersearroa
It was perfectly competent for Parliament, if it 9ht
think fit, to forego any claim which the Exchequer relfbo
have upon the tolls of the bridge. He hoped, these °d
house would sympathise with the working ela'seNheir •
would accept the bill as an instalment of what Was
right. (Hear, hear.) 000
Mr. JACKSON, as chairman of the committee, le„00
suggest that the country should be generous and t hro wivor ing
the bridge, on condition that the two counties adiem•
•
should guarantee the maintenance of the bridge. pad
practical man he believed that the consequent ee°l-0111
value of the Government land in the neighbourhood
tan °f
reimburse the State for the outlay on the constructie'
the bridge. (Hear, hear.) witlr
Mr. AYRTON suggested that the bill should be ods•
drawn until the report of the Metropolitan Toll C 0133
sioners should be presented.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER `" the
mended the house to agree to; be Irma n to adjourn
debate.
The house divided on the motion foL Lie adjourninent.
Ayes
Noes
Majority
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER eto
served that for the future it would be well if they o,elloie
an agreement that all opposed orders of the day thab
on after 12 o'clock should be postponed. (Loud the
The house adjourned at a quarter past one.

BIRTHS. ho,
Bunt— On the Ist inst. at at her residence, in Sloane 4""
Viscountess Bury, of: a son. tb°
CLowEs--On the 10th inst., at 4 Ilarewood-squarer
wife of William Cloves, Esq., of a daughter,
abeil
aLsa,,f,
t"
LAMB—On the 10th inst., at 3, Hinde-street,
square, the wife of E. 11. Lamb, Esq., of a daUgm:nb.
TURNER—On the 9th inst ,at Lee-road, Blackhes,,:e of
wife of Frederick J. Turner, Esq barrister-A0"
a daughter.

MARRIAGES. kl°i'
FRANCIS—SCOT—Oa the 10th inst., at St. Joh"%sci3O
tiug-hill, Thomas Watson, son of W. S. Francifi,ireak
of Welidos° square, London, and East Wiekhant,,, '„". of
to Fanny Georgiana, daughter of R. A. Scott, Pk"
Bayswater.

DEATHS.
Aris
BROWN--On the 10th inst., at his residence,
street, Soho-square; Robert Brown, Esq., DA).""'
aged 85,
Burton v 170°.
BRIGSTOCKE—On the 7th inst., at e cot,' Jobe
brokeshire, Mary Catherine relict of the Rev' pea
Brigstocke, and daughter of the late Sir Willis°
Lady Sarah Champion de Crespiguy. mirel36
DunANT—On the Oth inst., at Poole, Dorset, "'—
Esq., aged 78.

$ll
LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOO-140.
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun 015°8%19,1
112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in Silo CD
of Middlesex, Saturday, Jane 12, 180.