The Sun.
London, England, 1867-07-06 00:00:00

I'MI,LW!UNT

HOUSE OF LORDS—LAST EVENING.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at
five o'clock.

PETITIONS.
Petitions were presented from various placos in the
diocese of Salisbury, praying that their lordships would
passthe Clerical Vestment Bill.
THE TROOPS IN NEW ZEALAND.
Lord LYTTELTON moved for copies of instructions
to the officers commanding troops in New Zealand con-
cerning their distribution.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said that with regard to
this motion, as there were arrangements being made as to
the distribution both by her Majesty's Government and
the Government abroad, it was advisable, he thought, to
wait for further information on the subject.
The Earl of CARNARVON said that question arose
out of a despatch of his, and he would certainly like to
hear something on the matter, and if the Government had
taken action in the matter it would bo advisable that the
lionse should be informed fully on the subject.
Lord LYTTELTON thought that it was necessary that
some information should be given to the house on this sub-
ject, but if the noble duke supposed it would be advanta-
geous he would withdraw it.
The matter then dropped.
CERTIFICATED TEACHERS IN PARISHES.

The Earl of CORK said that ho wished to call the
attention of the house to the hardships sustained by
certain parishes by making the employment of a certifi-
cated teacher an indispensable condition for their ob-
taining Government assistance. He contended that uncer-
tificated teachers were quite as well worthy of the grant
as those who ware certificated. Many competent instruc-
tors were amongst the former. It was a great hard-
ship that all these teachers should bo compelled to go
to the same school ; indeed it was not so amongst
higher classes of teachers, they passed their necessary
examinations, and then pursued their professional duties
without any distinction. He thought that at this time there
should be a conference with the commissioners of 1859 re-
lative to improving the rural schools of this country, and he
trusted that during the winter something would be done in
the matter. On that account he called their lordships' at-
tention to it.
The Bishop of GLOUCESTER said that he was much
obliged to the noble earl for bringing forward the
question. Ho knew very well what hardships the
clergy of the rural districts had in obtaining proper
schools for the children of the poor. There could be no
doubt that the higher the class of educated teachers they
could obtain the more advantageous it would be, but
it was often difficult to got them. Ho would
suggest that there should be, if possible, diocesan
boards of education in the rural districts, by which per-
haps the evil complained of might be met.
The Duke of MARLBOROUGH said that this was ono
of the most important and one of the broadest questions
that could bo brought before their lordships. But he
thought that a more general ground should be taken than
that suggested by the noble lord.
Their lordships shortly afterwards adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 2 o'clock.
THE SCOTCH REFORM BILL.

In reply to Sir W. Bi:X.TON,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it was intended, on the passing of the Representation of
the People Bill, to move the second reading of the Scotch

Reform Bill. The house would thereby have an oppor-

tunity of assenting to the principle of the bill, the fran-
chise given therein, and the redistribution of seats.
(Hoar, hear.)
REPRESENTATION OP THE PEOPLE BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill, the

debate being resumed upon the following now clause
moved by Mr. Lowe : —" At any contested election for a
county or borough represented by more than two members,
and having more than one seat vacant, every voter shall
bo entitled to a number of votes equal to the number of
vacant seats, and may give all such votes to ono candi-
didate, or may distribute them among the candidates as he
thinks fit."

Mr. LEFEVRE opposed the clause, denying that it was
either expedient or necessary that minorities should be
represented, and ho objected to it further on tho ground
that it was based on class legislation.
Mr. GORST said the amendment VMS a matter of in-
difference to the leaders and popular members in the house,
because they were certain of being returned to the house,
but with the members of his own standing the matter was
not so unimportant, and they feared the demoralising effect
of being compelled to make themselves popular with the
lowest class of voters. .

Mr. MORRISON concurred in the propriety of the new
clause, and the amendment ho had gili,on notice of was
only to establish another mode of carrying it out.
Sir J. COLLIER strongly objected to the clause.
Mr. ADDERLE Y. also object.e 1, because it sought to
establish an arrangement altogether new and quite un-
known to the constitution.
Mr. FAWCETT said he should support the proposal of
the lion. member for Caine, because he wished that mino-
rities should be represented in that house. He denied
that those parsons in favour of the clause were those who
proposed to give as much power to the minority as the
majority. That ho altogether denied that it was never
thought or intended that such a state of things should
exist; and with respect to the amendment to the clause
standing on the paper in the name of the hon. member (Mr.
Morrison) without saying whether ho should vote for it,
ho thought that the proposal to adopt the arrangement in
places returriug two members would in effect give as much
power to the one as to the other. 1.10 hopod the proposal
_ _ _

of the hon. member for Caine would be adopted, because
it would lead to the trial of a system on a small scale,
which in some 20 or 30 years would be the system in com-
mon use. (Hear, hear.) Ile supported the proposal be-
causo he felt it would give to every class of opinion that
fair and just proportion of representation to which they
were entitled.

Mr. BRIGHT opposed the clause onthe ground that it
was one of the most violent attacks onrepresentation ever
debated in that house. (Hear.) II 3 had bon quite content to
march along in the paths of ancient representation —(hear

Mr. NEWDEGATE hoped the house would accept the
amendment of the hon. member for Calne, because it would
then receive atrial as an experiment, the result of which ho
felt would be most important. . . . .

and in what the Gwarammit had propsetithly had done so
The hon. member for Caine hal, in almost agonising terms
besought the house to adopt his proposal, because it was
the only mode of escaping th) danger to which the hous
was fast hurrying. Why, in only 8 or 10 constituencies re-
turning three members it could only be of any effect, and was

that to be the great safeguard to the constitution ? (Hear,
h^ :`r.) if you abstracted a snow-ball from an avalache,
would that prevent the impending danger—(hear, hear)
—and the proposal of the hon. member for Caine was just

about as sensible and secure. (Hear.) Ho denied that the
proposal would work as the right hon. member anticipated
and if it was only put into operation in such a place
as the City of London the result would satisfactorily prove
that the proposal was visionary in the extreme. He was
surprised how such a person as the hon. member could
have brought forward such a measure, especially as no
member in that House was more opposed to what ho called
sudden changes and revolutions. (Hoar, hear.) Ho
did not care one straw about the proposition with
respect to the bill with which they wore now
discussing, but it would destroy all that was living and
energetic in every constituency to which it was applied.
(Hear, hear.) Ho looked upon it as ono of tuoso crotchety
and dreamy propositions which they heard so frequently
in that house, and therefore he hoped the committee would
reject it.

Viscount CRANBORNE approved of the proposition,
and he could not but express his gratification in wit-
nessing the appearance of the hon. member for Birming-
ham in a new part, viz., a defender of our ancient consti-
tution. (near, hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. J. S. MILL strongly supported the proposition,
and said the strong conservative speech that they had just
heard from the hon. member for Birmingham was doubtless
as great a surprise to the house as it was to himself, be-
cause it was the fir,t speech of the right hon. gentleman
with which ho was bound to say he could not cordially
concur.

Mr. HENLEY opposed the clause.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
already expressed his views on this matter without re-.
s2rve. He thought it very unwise to adopt so vast a
change to produce such little consequences—to en-
counter such great dar gars for such small results. If
the principle was only to be applied to boroughs returning
three members, that appeared to him to bo futile, as it
would most undoubtedly have to be applied in places re-
turning two monibm-s, and why nut? Ho must de-
cline in the mouth of July to reconsider the whole
question of It)form in favour of a system that was in
oppAsition to the customs and manners of the country.
(I [ear, hear.) The whole principle was against
the sound principles of r ,presentation in such a
country a 3 England. If the principle was adored
it. would produce a stagnou', representation and a
f,eblo executive. (Hear, hear.) The representation
of minorities he had looked upon a; a scheme to
get crochetty men into fault. They hail been
successful to nn extent, and ho did not think it
would be right to legislate in order to increase their num-
ber. (Hear, hear, and loud laughter.) The noble lord
the member for Stamford bad said that monarchy was
dead, that the aristocracy was doomed, and democracy was
triumphant. (Laughter.) He begged leave to doubt that
saying, becausebecause democracy could not be triumphant until
the clause of the hon. member for Caine was adopted.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He for one was not disposed,
even if democracy was triumphant, to change the whole
spirit of representation in this great country.
Sir G. GREY said he was in favour of the amendment
to the new clause as proposed by Mr. Morrison, but before
that could be moved the clause now under discussion must
ho read a second Wm). On that understanding ho should
vote for the second reading of the clause of the hon. mem-