The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-26 00:00:00

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because the principle that be desired to carry out was that member—_
for Louth, because he believed it would be the
of undivided responsibility. If thry adhered to the prin- best check against the misuse of money and the misuse of
ciple of undivided responsibility they must have undivided patronage.
authority. The council proposed by the noble lord was The committee then divided. The numbers were—
one of nominees--the council proposed by the present -bill '- - For the amendment
'was one that was to hold office for life. To impose such a - Against it
check as was proposed would be to impose a double re- ' Majority —ll4
eponsibility on the Minister—first, to his council, and, ,
.
et
question that clause 3 stand part of the bill,
the the i
secondly, to Parliament. He felt the necessity for making
Sir te. v-‘
the responsibility of the Minister actual, but if the house
latter part of the- suggested a verbal amendment of the
clause, to make it consistent with the
acted on the principle laid down daring the present sessile
they must mike that a responsibility to Parliament. He i subsequent clauses.
Mr. WALPOLE gave some explanation, and the clause
had been asked if the clause did not give the Minister was then agreed to.
authority over the patronage of India as well as over the
expenditure ?It would be a sufficient answer to point to On clause 4,
that by tho present law three
il clauses 31 and 31, which provid,d for the disposal of the
Sir J. GRAHAM sa
patronege. What he would press on the committee was Secretaries . f State and one President of the Board of Con-
this, that any restraint they wished to impose on the o
trol might sit in the House of Commons. There was there-
-
-Minister was covered by the words in the clause : but bypowered to sit.
fore no objection to the new S cretary of State being em-
int,r6flucihg the' Words -" and council," you introduced a
di'siihisd authority, arateek from the Minister more power The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 5 and 6.
On clause 7, which fixes the number of the council,
then yotfinterided, and you would introduce that double
responsibility whichit had been thouniveisal wish toavoid. Lord PALMERSTON said he thought that 15 was an
Mr. V.SMlTHegreed that this clause must be considered inconveniently large number. He did not fear that, the ap-
ia connection with others in the bill; although the right point ment of that number of officers by the Government
hen. beronet (Sir J. Graham) was quite right in saying, would affect the liberties of the country; but he believed
that if the clause stood alone it would give unlimited that the number would be too large for the convenient
power to the Secretary for India. With regard to patron- transaction-of business. There Would not be that constant
age the objection had been answered, but as regarded ex. transmission of documents to and from India which had
penditure there was no provision. He considered that the hitherto taken plaCe. The voluminous correspondence had
present council was more obstructive than that proposed to Ira read; and it generally resulted in nothing being done,
by his noble friend (Lord Palmerston). He was sure that or being referred to the clerk of the committee. He did
the committee would think that Were must be some check not think that it would be necessary to sub-divide the
-in this respect on the Minister for India, for if not he council into committees of three. He suggested that they
would posse-s the most enormous power ever given to any should adopt that number which Lord Stanley himself had
minister, and with regard to expenditure he could do as been in favour of, 12—giving power to the Government to
he pleased. The only check the noble lord proposed was reduce thatenumbee afterward'. The bill seemed to have
that the accounts should be laid before Parliament ; but been framed en the idea that the new Government should
this was wholly illusory. He had expressed that opinion resemble the old one as much as possible. They seemed to
last night, and he should repeat it on every occasion. The have had the old Court of Directors of 18 in their mind.
bon. and learned member for Devonport said he should Ho moved to omit "15," and insert "12."
propose that a vote should be taken in Parliament when a Mr. MANGLES said it was an entire mistake of the
pension tame a certain amount was to be granted. But noble lord to suppose that the correspondence with India
this was also illusory. There was no such action in mom- would diminish. On the contrary it was likely to increase,
Leis of Parliament with regard to matters of that kind re- owing to the railways and other new public works ; and
laying to India as was created by the influence of consti- that increase would probably go on for years to come. The
tuencies in this country. The hon. member for the Tower noble lord seemed to forget that India was a country of
Hamlets proposed that there should be an Appropriation raw produce chiefly, and must for a long - time to come
Act for India, but he (Ir. V. Smith) thought such a bill diaw its supply of manufactured articles from this country.
would share the fate of the Indian budget, and it would He hoped the committee would not consent to any ieduc-
not in the mouth of August excite much attention, or cause tion pf the number of the council.
payments to be looked into which ought to have been made Mr. GLADSTONE intended to support the number of
by the Minister. Either by means of the council or other- 15, and would state why he preferred it to 12. The court-
wise there must bo some check on the Minister with regard cil might either be e body only occasionally consulted by
to eimpenditure, and he would suggest to the noble lord the the Indian Minister, as his convenience dictated, and in
creation of some check on a minister invested with such that case the smaller number would be sufficient ;or they
extraordinary powers.
might be parties to the whole of the Indian business from
Sir F. BARING begged to add his request to the noble its inception to its close, and such was hisidea of the corm-
lord, that he would consider the power which he was about nil. ( Bear, hear.) The number of 15 contemplated the
to grant to the minister with regard to the finances of India. council being divided into committees; and Lord Stanley
He admitted that in considering the question of the go- had-stated that the business would be conducted in that
vernment of Indic they must put aside their notions of way. He thought this arrangement so important that it
freedom, and proceed as if they were enacting an arbitrary was desirable to have provisions inserted in the bill for
measure. But there must be some security for expendi- carrying it out ; and he hoped the Government would in-
ture. There was no security that the couscil would act as troduce some clauses to that effect. (Hear, hear.)
a check, for the whole power of the President of the Board
of Control was handed over to the Minister for India with- only 5 per cent,
Mr. D. SEYMOUR said that of the
out even the intervention of the secret committee, and he business had been initiated or transacted by committees
might order any expenditure he chose. Was that a power tipsier the old system. There would not be the same
to give to any wan ? He would ask if the Minister was to amount of business thrown on the council with regard to
railway and public works as n ra. pressed on the Court of
have the power of raising loans without even the know-
Directors. It was only the clerks who would ever read
ledge of the council ? Might it not be enacted that no
allthe The committee couldonly look
order for the payment of money should be given- without through
its going through the council and being known to them ? over them afterwards in a dilettante manner. He
to
eorithlde
That might act as a check. As to the check proposed, of vote for the number 12 as h' aa'
approximationaanndeaarr
laying the accounts before Parliament, that would not be number 4—( `hear, , laugh) -- which he thought.
of the bast use. the proper number. All the real business was done in
Lord STANLEY said that the right hon. gentleman had India by a council which only comprised four members,
evidently not read the whole bill; for, when he put his and the same number would be quite enough for the Enge-
.
question with regard to the power of raising loans, which
lish council. They ought not to have more men th n were
he supposed was vested in the Minister, he had not looked required for the work. (Cries of "Divide.") He wouldr
at clause 45, by which the powers of borrowing, now pro- vote for 12 as nearer the smaller number, or for no council
posed by the East India Company, was transferred to the at all.
council to be exercised under the direction of the Secretary Lord STANLEY said they had travelled over the
of State ; so- that there could be uo loan without their ground so often that he would not detain the committee
knowledge. By the 39th clause it was provided that all long. He' agreed with the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
moneys to be paid out by drafts or orders were to be signed Gladstone) that the numbers of the council depended very
by three members of the council. much on the nature of the functions to be performed.
Sir H. RAWLINSON said that the 39th clause did With regard to the division into committees—if he looked
give apower over expenditure to the council, and the power to clause 20 he would find a provision to that effect,
of the Secretiry of State remainedas it was. This appeared although it was not obligatory. It was said the amount
to him to be an efficient control. of business would be greatly reduced; that might be the
Sir F. BARING said he was aware of the clause in case eventually, but no such reduction could take place for
question, but it was so inconsistent with the argument of some time. He was ready to bow to the decision of the
the noble lord with regard to the responsibility of the committee, but he must say that the more he saw of the
Minister, that he thought it provided for a mere formal amount of business the less he liked the reduction from
signature, just as three Lords of the Treasury signed cer. fifteen to twelve. (Hear, hear )
Lain warrants. If he was to understand that the members Mr. LOWE could not imagine what these fifteen gent's-
of council did not merely sign, but had placed on them the men would have to do. ("Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.' )
responsibility of their signature, he had a got a great deal The present Court of Directors read all the papers that
of that he was anxious to obtain. came from India, and yet they found time to do a good
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he understood that the effect many other things. The late chairman held the same
of the 39th clause was, that when the Secretary of State position in several other companies, and many of them
by his authority ordered money to be paid oat of the horn• were bankers. One gentleman, Capt. Shepherd, appeared
Treasury, and it was paid by draft, it was signed by three to be the prop of all decayed corporations. He was the
members of the council ; but the Secretary of State had prop of the India\ House, the support of the Hudson's Bay
the power to order money to be paid. Company, and every thing at the Trinity House. When
Sir C. WOOD agreed with his right hon. friend as to the he considered the importance of 1,0001. to the revenue, he effect of the clause. It did eye, the counoil some power, could not wish to pay the larger number. The Board of
so fax as home expenditure was concerned. But there was Control was now divided into six departments with a chief
nothing that he saw in the clause which rendered the con- clerk' at the head of each. The secretary read over the
sent of the council necessary to any order for payment out papers relating to all six. No had done it himself, and
of the home Treasury. There ought to be words in the yet his health had not suffered, nor was hiS time fully
clause which made something more necessary for payment occupied. If they had a council composed of six heads of
out of the Treasury than the order of the Secretary of departments, they would have a council which would be
State. The clause, however, went only to home expendi- consulted by the Minister, and be a valuable assistance to
lure, whereas there was a large 'amount of expenditure him. (Hear, hear.) Now, they would have fifteen gentle-
which was not provided for—naneely, the expenditure in men whose time was not fully occupied to deliberate in
India itself.
council. Was the Minister to be prevent at these deli-
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said the if money was to be voted berations or not ? If not, they wore merely reconstruct-
by the council, what was the meaning of the 23d clause, ing the double government. If he did attend it would be
which provided, that in case of any difference of opinion is impossible for him to get through his duties. The result
the council, the determination. of the Secretary of State of the proposed plan would be this—if the President
should be fine]. ,If the. Secretary. of State had not the wanted to send a despatch he would direct the clerk of the
power to order the payment Of money, that exception department to prepare one ; it would then be laid before
ough to be includ'ed i the claim. the council; but if they altered it, the Minister would take
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that it was,some- care to alter it back again. It would not be a council, be-
what premature to discuss clause 39, which was intended cause it would never he consulted. (Hear, hear.) It would
to impose checks tin the powers given by the clause then go on for two or three years and then be abolished, and
under discussion. When they came to that clause they the pdoole would be surprised they had ever accepted it.
would decide on the extent to which these checks were to . Sir_ Isr, RA WLINSON, who was interrupted by cries for
go. If he wore to give an opinion with regard to clause a division, said he would on abstract principles be inclined
39, he should say -that the money to bo spent was lobe de- to support the smaller number. From his experience he
terminod by the Secretary of State and the councilfin the believed 12 would be sufficient. (Hear, hear.) There were
same manner as they determined any other matter. ' How three committees at. the India-house, but as three formed
that was to be done was to be provided for hereafter, and a quorum nine were equal to the entire work. This, how-
he thought it would be bettor to defer the discussion till ever, was not a mere question of £s. d.; it was desirable
they came to the clauses in question. at the inauguration of a new system to have as much
Col. SYKES said that clause 39 referred to money re- weight and authoiity in the council as possible ;he would
witted from India, but clause 3 put the whole of the re- therefore vote for the number 15. (Cries of "Divide.")
venues of India at the disposal of the minister. Col. SYKES rose, but was unable to obtain a hearing.
Sir C. WOOD would be contended to take the discussion The committee then divided on the question that the
on this point on the subsequent clauses. But the noble word " fifteen" stand part of the clause
lord had not stated that those clauses wore sufficient for
-Ayes
the purpose, and he thought he could see that they were
Noes .
not. He was satisfied to let this clause pass after what
Majority
—62
had been said. -
Sir J. GRAHAM said that if there had been any dis- 'Viscount PALMERSTON then proposed to insert after
cussion on clause 3, the blame rested with him, for it athe. word "members" the words " to be appointed by her
p-
Mal esty by warrant under her royal sign manual," the
peared to him that it transferred all powers relating to ex- s
penditure, and entrusted all the patronage to the Minister object of his motion being to provide that the whole fifteen
for India. The words 'I or otherwise provided" had not members of the council should be nominated by the crown.
escaped him, and he had asked what were the enactments The object of the bill was to transfer the Government of
in the bill which restricted those powers ? The noble lord India to the Queen, and he considered that it would be
referred to clause 39. It was not desirable to carry the contrary to the principles of the constitution to allow any
discussion on that clause any further then, but as at pia- portion of the council to be appointed otherwise than by
.
'The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
sent advised. he did not think the checks in it were suffi-
her Majesty.
dent, lie did not find in the bill any such restraint as
the secret committee, which was an efficient restraint. would be unnecessary to enter into any lengthened discus-
The Secretary of India had larger powers than the Presi- sion upon this point, the house having already decided
dent of the Beard of Control now had over expenditure, that the council should be partially elected. The argument
which he could exercise without the knowledge of tho of the noble lord was quite fallacious, for it was based upon
council or of Parliament, except that at a distant period the erroneous assumption that the council was merely an
accounts be rendered to Parliament Then with respect to executive body, •
patronage the noble lord referred to clauses 31 and 34. Viscount DUNKELLIN, amidst loud expressions of
With regard to military patronage there was a limit placed impatience, supported the amendment.
to the power of the Minister, but he did not find thatthere Mr. S. WORTLEY said that though it was, tech-
was any limit with regard to civil patronage. That was nice ly speaking, quite true that members of the executive
vested to the Minister alone. Ho thought some efficient were all appointed by the sovereign, tte element of elec-
restraint ought to be imposed upon the expenditure. tion did nevertheless enter very materially into the fact of
Mr. GREGSON trusted that the clause would be so their appointment. Taus Sir R. Peel, on one occasion,
modified as to impose a proper, check upon the Secretary .wished to aeair himself of the services of his friend, Sir G.
of State. • Murray, in whore he had the greatest confidence; but Sir
Sir 11. RAWLINSON said that the President of the-
.George having lost his election for Perthshire, both Sir R.
Board of Control, had now no power of ordering any ex- Peel anl the Crown were deprived of his assistance. (Hear,
penditure. of money, bet he might reqaire- the Court of I hear.) Again, Waves generally understood that the only
Directors to do so. reason why the right hon. baronet (Sir E. B. Lytton) had
Tha CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, not been appointed to the Colenial-office, on the formation
under the bill, no communication could be sent to India of Lord Derby's cabinet, was the alarm, which had since
by the- Secretary of State without the knowledge of the happened turned out to be a false one, that there would be
council. and that, would give the restriction 'Which the some difficulty in his re-election. (Hear.) Once more, did
committee required. anybody suppose that Mr. Fox would ever have been a
-
Mr. PULLER said that, according to the interpretation Minister of the Crown, if his appointment had depended
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the power of the Pre- entirely upon the will of the sovereign ? In point of fact,
sident could not bo exercised without the knowledge of it was the elected House of Commons which had forced
the council, but still they would possess no -control over him into the Premiership. (Hear, hear.)
him. On the other, if a veto was given to them, it would The house then divided—
take out of the Secretary's hands the power vested in him •For the amendment 147
by the bill. If the council could prevent the Secretary from Against it.., 24 ,
ordering any expenditure, they could prevent him' from Majority against it —93 -
making any alteration of -policy which would involve an This result was received with loud cheer-'.
increase of expenditure. Mr. GLADSTONE said he had a proposal to make to
Mr. V. SMI l'H said, if the Nesident of the Board of the committee, which, though it bad been mentioned on
Control desired to effect any purpose he must send a letter one or two occasions, had not yet been discussed; it was
to the Court of Directors, who bad the power of remon- that the first members of the council should be named in
strafing, and could not be compelled to' obey the thiection the bill. As it was net desirable, however, to proceed any
of the President without a mandamus from a court °fills,- :.further then, he would move that the chairman report
tire. It was clear that under the present bill the Sgtetaiy 'progress, what he he had said being intended as a notice.
of State would have no greater power over the Indian ra- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
venues than that which now existed. there were very grave objections to
..the right hon. gentle-
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought the Chancellor of the man's proposal. The Government did, on one occasion,
Exchequer hal overlooked the 27th clause. Suppose a P-ropose that the names should be inserted. (Laughter.)
minister chose to expend half a million on steamers in a After that proposition was made, however, they saw reason
war with China, the council would not be able to interfere to believe that it would be very inconvenient and injurious
iu the matter. It:was clear that the power of the minister to the public service to carry it out, and at the proper time
would be moat arbitrary and despotic. He wished to know ho should state the objections which he entertained.' As
from the Governbeent whether the minister would be al- there were urgent reasons why supply should be taken on
lowed to expend any sum he might please without the Monday, be proposed that they should not proceed with
-knowledge of.the council or the knowledge of Parliament. the committee until next Thursday, and he hoped that by
Mr. 13 allito Via said it would be much the more corive- taking the committee on that day and on Friday cense-
niirat course to discuss the clauses in their proper order, entirely, they would be able to got through that stage
and if hon. members were not satisfied with the checks of the measure. He proposed that on Monday they
imposed they ought to give notice of amendments. should first take the Funded Debt Bill and then go on to
Mr. FORTESCUE moved the insertion of the words supply. He thought it desirable that they should have a
"in council".after the words " Secretary of State." The morning sitting on Monday, in• order to get through the
effect of that amendment would be that in all ordinary Scotch *Universities Bill. (Hear.) It was of great im-
matters the council would, as a matter of right, have cog- p irtanco to Scotch members that that bill should be pro-
nisance of all matters relating to the government of India ceeded with as soon as possible. (Hear, hear.)
before they wore finally decided upon by the Secretary of The CHAIRMAN then reported progress.
State.
SALE AND TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND)
Sir G. LEWIS said that if the government would adopt - - ' BILL.
the plan recommended by the late government they would The house having gone into committee on this bill,
solve the difficulty. The former bill contained a clause pro- Mr. B. OSBORNE protested against the bill being pro-
asieline that no grant for any increase should be raade with- ceeded with at that late hour (half-past twelve), and com-
opt the concurrence of the president and four of the ordi-
plained of clause 51, Which he said was one of the .most
nary members of the council, that being a majority. If it important clauses of the bill, having been disposed of at
Waf the intention of the Government that-no new grant or such a late hour on a previous evening.
charge should be made out of the revenue of India without The CHAIRMAN reminded the hon, member that he
the consent of the majority of the council, he would suggest was out of order in referring to a clause which had been
'the insertion of a clause defining the powers of the council, Passid•
add thus removing the difficulty which
elhaaduase wasrisen Mr. B. OSBORNE moved that therchairman report pro-
Lord V. TEMPEST said the present
a mere gross, and gave notice that on the bringing up of the re-
secptitur of the provision that the Government of India port he should move that clause 51. be expunged.
should be banded over to the Crown. If the amendment Mr. WHITESIDE said the remaining clauses were of
should be adopted the minister would be completely con- little 'importance, and it was very desirable th st the bill
trailed by the council. He did not sec anything to delay should pass through committee.
the committee until they arrived at the 7th clause, on Mi. WALPOLE hop.d that the house would go on with
which he had given notice of his intention to move an those clauses which were unopposed, to save time on a
amendment. future occasion.

Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not vote for the amend-
men,f of the hon. member for Louth (Mr. Fortescue), and
hoped the Government would pay some attention to the
suggestion of his right hon. friend (sir G. Lewis).
Mr. MANGLES said that nothing more was required
with respect to the now council than existed with regard
to the council-and the Governor-General a India. All the
official business must be done by the Governor-General in
Council, and -he thought the new minister ought to bear-
his council and take their advice. That system had. acted
almirably.in the Indian branch of the Government, 'and he •
did not see why it should not do adequately well the'
r-Tit-glisb branch.
Mr, T. BARING supported the amendment' of the hon;

Mr. AONSELL trusted 11 a Government would persist
in going on with the bill, for if they did not there was a
danger of its falling through altogether.
Mr. Sergealit DEASY thought it reasonable that the
bill should be postponed, instead of a discussion taking
place at half-past twelve.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER should not
think of proo?.eding with any discussion of imprrtance at
that late hour, if it were not the wish of the committee.
It was said that there was some objection to the mode in
which clause 51 had been passed, but be knew of nothing
more fair than the manner in which that clause was car-
ried ; it was discussed at some length, and was then carried
by an overwhelming majority. If they went into com-