The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-30 00:00:00

, JUNE 30, 1858.

a most -valuable and interesting report ; at the same
time, it was tignallee true that when they came to the
consideration of a 'remedy for the evils which they de-
scribed, the , commissioners were not so successful:
The fact was, the greatest difficulty surrounded the
question, 'in consequence of the variety of opinions
which peevailed with regard to the system of educa-
tion to be adopted in these schools. The majority
of the commissioners were in favour of the mixed
system 012 education ; but Mr. Stephens, who re-
prre-
presentedthe Church of England on the cone=mien
ssion, mission, and Mr. Hughes, who represented the views
of a large party of the Roman Catholics in Ireland,
were entirely opposed to such a principle of educe-
cation, and declared its application impossible to the en-
dowed schools. It was obviously impossible, therefore,
that ha the short time that remained of the session the
Goyezeirment could make up its mind as to the manner in
which the difficulty ought to be solved. The difficulties'
which beset the question were very great, and it must
be apparent that the Government could only arrive at a
renaet'sy for an evil of such magnitude after the greatest
coneideration. However, he could promise the house
thast during the recess the subject would occupy a large
esortion of the time of the Irish Government. Indeed,
his noble friend the Lord-Lieutenant had already given
much of his attention to the question, and had perused
the whole of the voluminous report of the commissioners.
Mr. GREER had hoped for a more explicit statement
of the intentions of the present Government ; he thought
they ought to have made up their minds as to the prin-
ciple of the measure which they intended to introduce
next year. Ho must declare the country was greatly
indebted to the honourable member for Newry for in-
troducing this subject to the notice of the house.
Mr. GROGAN was also of opinion that the hon.
gentleman had done good service in calling attention to
the subject ; and he was happy to hear that the serious
consideration of the Government was to be directed to
grappling with it ; for a more important question could •
not occupy the attention of any Government. At the
same time he must thus early enter his protest against
any principle of education being applied to these schools
which was based upon the exclusion of the Bible.
Mr. LEFROY was rejoiced to hear the announcement '
made by his noble friend, that the report of the commis-
sioners was to occupy the attention of the Government during the recess. At the same time he deeply regretted
that the honourable member fer. Newry (Mr. Kirk) had
deemed it his duty to make an attack upon the system
of education adopted by the Church Education Society.
Mr. DOBBS thought that the people of the north of
Ireland were especially indebted to the hon. member
for Newry, for bringing forward the question. He
should give his most cerdial support to the motion.
Mr. HASSARD said that the hon. gentleman (Mr.
Lelroy), in showing the effects of the national school.,
had stated that they would destroy the middle schools,
and that the Queen's Colleges would be the only places
in which education for the middle classes could be ob•
tained. He believed the middle schools of Ireland were
very efficient, and one, of which he had some know-
ledge, that of Waterford, was very ably conducted by a
clergyman of the Church of England, but the religious
views of the people were not interfered with.
Mr. KIRK admitted that in some of the large towns
these were good school.; of the class spoken of, and it
was only because he did not wish to Waste the time of
the house that he di I not enumerate them.
The motion was then withdrawn.
ORANGE LODGES, IRELAND.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD rose to call attention to
the Address of the House of Commons to his late Ma-
jesty King William IV., of the 24th day of February,
1836, and his Majesty's gracious answer thereto, and to
the recent appointment of "Mr. Cecil Moore, grand se-
cretary of the Tyrone Orange Lodge, to the office of
sessional Crown prosecutor of the county of Tyrone, and
to move "That in the opinion of this house the appoint-
ment to offices connected with the administration of the
criminal law of members of the Orange Confederation,
or of any other political Confederation founded on
principles of religious exclusion, inculcating secrecy
on its members, and acting by means of delegates
or representatives, and of affiliated branches, tends
to create well-founded jealousy and suspicion highly
detrimental to the ends of justice, and ought to be the-
couraged." He said the motion was one of great prac- ,
tical importance, affecting the welfare of the country,
and he regretted that he should have to bring it on at so
late an hour, and to abridge the observations he should
have to make. -In 1835 and 1836 the subject occupied
the attention of the house, when a select committee was
appointed, the results of which showed that a state of
things existed highly dangerous to the community. The
committee proved that there existed a confederation
bound by secret tests, numeering in Ireland 225,000, in
England 14,500, and in Scotland an unascertained
number, and from the wilds of Canada to the S rails cf
Malacca there existed this Orange confederation all
bound by the will of one man, the grand master, the
object of wilich was political, controlling the Patliament
and the executive, and that under the cloak of religion
—that it perverted the course of justice—intruded itself
on the bench, and divided the people into two great re-
ligious parties, which rendered amalgamation impossible.
In 1336 it was pointed out that it always embraced
among its members men of high character and honour,
but entertaining designs at which every one must shud-
der. He did not intend calling the attention of the
house at any length to what took place on that occa-
sion, but it had been said that at that time it was an
illegal body, but that under its new organisation it was
on a different footing—that now it was perfectly legal.
When the question was formerly under the consideration
of the house, the noble lord the present member for the
city of London remarked that these societies invariably
produced a perpetual source of quarrelling and- insub-
ordination, and that they generated party feelings
which were most de3a..,t, outs to the welfare of the
people, and obstructive of the pure stream of jus-
tice. He should attempt to show that if the
Orange Confederacy was illegal and pernicious,
in 1836, it had net lost that character now, and that the
remarks which were mettle in reference to it then were
just as applicable to it at the present time. That what
Sir R. Peel, in 1835, termed dangerous associations were
so still, and though he did not ask that they should be
put down by force of law, he should press upon the
house that her Majesty's Government should not give
any encouragement to their members. He had stated
in his resolution that he Would call attention to the
address of the house to King William IV., of Feb. 24,
1836, and he should ask the house to pass a-resolution
in-accordance with the pledge which was given in 1836
by the Duke of Cumberland, the grand master, that this
confederation should be abolished in Great Britain and
the colonies—a pledge which he might remark had never
been carried out. That was the case he could prove by
en Orange warrant issued on the 19. h of May in Louth,
Ireland, some months after the pledge given by the Duke
of Cumberland that there should be a dissolution of the
confederation, which had been condemned, by the house
as dangerous to the welfare of the country. (Hear.) He
held in his hand an extraordinary document, namely, the
records of the Orange lodge of Donegal, containing en-
tries from 1313 to 1823. This contained an entry, which
stated that in consequence of a statute in opposition to
illegal oaths, this society was abolished ; but eight days
afterwards it was reorganised, all the change being that
that part of the rules requiring the taking of an oath was
rite'c •T"P ereereistee of 1835, appointed to inquire
into the lodges ie leeieed, iepin ,li:Lf,-.1
their evidence. The committee appointed for Engianu
did make a valuable report, to which he should have
alluded, had it not been for the lateness of the hour. He
might say, however, that this report contained the most
alarming statements as to the result of the Orange asso-
ciations, and when it was known that similar associa-
tions existed now, he thought too much importance
could not be directed to the subject. [Pile hon. and
learned gentleman read extracts from the report, with a
view to show the religious animosities which it was the
tendency of the confederation to keep up.] In that re..
port he contended there was a full justification for every
charge which he should allege against the confederation.
In 1836 a regulation was put in force in accordance with
which every man who was appointed a stipendary magis-
trate was compelled to take an oath, one part of which
stated that during the time he held office he would not
belong to any secret political society. That remained
the law up to the present time, and be now sought to
apply it to those who had the administration of the
higher departments of criminal justice. It will be re-
membered that last year there were serious riots in
Belfast, in reference to which a commission of inquiry
was sent out. Before these commissioners Lord &anis-
killen appeared for examination, and he then produced
the records of the society, remarking that the society
had now nothing to conceal. lie (Mr. Fitzgerald) had
compared the rules of 1824, 1836, 1845, and he defied
eanyhone to prove that there was any essential differecce
between them. (Hear, hear.) found in the recital
of the objects of the institution that it was founded for
the establishment of her Majesty's succession, the de-
fence of their property, and the defence of the religion
of the Reformation, as well as to support the glorious
memory of King William, and the peace and prosperity
of the country. But when they said this they violated
all their principles, for the glorious memory of King
William they might all now join in perpetuating. (Loud
cheers.) But this Orange association had done every-
thing they could to violate the principles of King
William, and had ever proved themselves the ob-
structors of national liberty. (Oh, oh, and hear, hear.)
Bat thee() resolutions were hypocritical pretences. If
ken, gentlemen had any doubt about this, if.they had
any doubt that the object of the association was to in-
sult those who differed from them, he would baud them
the last song book of, the association. (Laughter and
loud cries of "Sing, sing." A voice : "lie dpes sing ;
he intones.r) The right hop. geutlemaii then read the
rules and prayers of the association, in the latter of
which they thanked God for protecting the country from
Rotaish treachery. These resolutions reminded him of
those of the Massachusett Puritans, which were :—"
The earth is the Lord's and the illiPO4 tbgreof, O. The
Lord hatb given the earth as an inheritance to his saint,.
3. We are his saints." (Laughter.) That the flange
confederacy was a Recret society was from the fact
that up to recent dates members had been ignominiously
expelled f r divulging the secrets of the order, What
the secreos of the Ordpr wpm ho peotested he could not
understand, although he did not believe this absurdity
that there were no secrets to be divulged. There were
also expulsions fir marrying Papists, and of these cases
he found 40 or 50 on the records before him. (Cries of
"Oh, oh," and groans.) He proceeded tp vote icy
s'anees of immphers of the Ciranze Lodge being excluded
for divul4ing reerets. It had been laid do Nn that no
one could be in the Queen's service, not even as a com-
mon soldier in the army, who belonged to the society
and he defied any one to show the difference between
the old Orange institution and tde newly organiAed 80-
city. He called on the boos© to, dispOuptge Ego') so-
cieties ; 13r, much as Orangemen nsight lore their
society or their country, they loved pl.sco better. i
attention was directed last year to this association, !did
he found that in sic years there-were, no lessthan 433,
cases of offences arising from Orange prooessionP, and no

less than 400 were in the county Down, where the so-
ciety chiefly flourished. An but tan were in the pro-
vince of Ulster. In county Down there was one case of
murder, 32 of violence, one of manslaughter, and one
which might, according to circumstaaces, be murder or
manslaughter. He moved for an account of the number of
cases since lie left office. Froth the return of Mr. Maxwell
he found that within a short time there were 55 cases of a
serious character tried at the assizes, of which all but
eleven arose from Protestant processions, arid three
from Catholic processions. Before 1845 there were nu-
merous cases, showing that law was defied and justice
defeated where this society was in force. The funds of
the society were applied to defend Orangemen who had
been guilty of serious crimes. He would refer to the en-
try of the expenditure of the Orange lodgesbefore 1836,
for he could not produce that Since 1836, as it was a
secret society. (Hear.) He referred to the evidence be-
fore the committee for cases of money being given to de-
fend persons charged with murder, in one case after con-
viction. The same thing was done in England ;in one
case 2001. having been voted for the defence of persons
charged with serious infraction of the law. In one case
also, the Scotch committee had given 641. to defend a
brother "in trouble"--in trouble because he bad mur-
dered a policeman. (Oh, oh.) Mr. Bridge, a member of
an Orange lodge, refused to give a character to a man
because he was a bad character. He was subsequently
convicted of murder, and Mr. Bridge was so persecuted
fur not giving him a character, that he was obliged to
leave the neighbourhood in which he resided.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Date?
Mr. F ITZGE RALD-1827.
The Chancellor laughed. (Immense cheering and
laughter from the Ministerial side.)
Mr. FITZGERALD continued—He did not see what
there was to excite the laughter of the leader of that house
in the fact that these things occurred in 1827 (hear)—or
that the mention of the circumstance was abSurd because
it occurred in '1827. He was confining himself to the
question of criminal justice, because the question he was
bringing forward related only to the administration of
criminal justice. He alleged that though formally dis-
solved in 1836, the society had existed up to this day.
Under a travelling warrant, granted in 1836, the society
had been established in Canada, and he produced a Canada
paper of the present year, in which there was a petition
against the admission of members of the Orange body to
the Legislature and against promoting secret societies. The
petition was not received from want of form. In that
petition it was said that unless their prayer was granted,
the petitioners would be driven to arms in self-defence,
and that trial by jury had become a mockery when mem-
bers of a secret society had the power of convicting the in-
nocent and acquitting the guilty. The Orangemen had as-
sembled in Canada in large numbers under that same Ogle
Gowan, who received the warrant in 1836 to establish the
Orange lodge there, and who was a clergyman of very bad
character indeed. He had received a communication to the
effect that Mr. Cecil Moore was not a member, but ha found
his name in the report of Enniskillen, as " A.D.G.5.,"
which he read as " Assistant-Deputy Grand Secretary,"
and he believed that was the correct meaning, and his
brother Mr. G. H. Moore. (Oh, oh.) It was no matter for
derision. In 1855 they were found in other offices, and
again in 1456. In 18.i7 Mr. C. Moore appeared as " U. 5.,"
which he interpreted as " Grand Secretary." He had not ,
a word to say against Mr. Moore personally. On the con-
trary, he believed him, from report, to be fully qualified,
and the only objection to him was that he was a member
of the society. He di I not wish to do him any injury. The
office of sessional Crown prosecutor was not one with a
large salary, but the duties were of great importance, and
though the sessions could not deal with cases of a capital
nature, yet, from the speedy and cheap administration of
justice, the cases were becoming more important, and the
Crown prosecutor had the whole conduct of prosecutions
and the power of the Attorney-General in excluding jury-
men. He did not believe that Mr. Moore would even for
his society violate his duty, but it would create well-
founded jealousy. Mr. Fitzgerald asked whether Lord C.
Hamilton was the same Lord C. Hamilton who was in-
ducted to the Orange Society, decorated with emblems,
and chaired through, the town in 1835 He quoted Lord
Caledon's declaration that Lord Claude Hamilton had, by
his share in the Orange proceedings, given him great
trouble. At that time a police-officer was shot at, and
a gentleman holding an important office found a threat-
ening notice in his prayer-book, and was fired at a few
days after. The appointment was defended on the
ground that Mr. Moore had ceased to be a member of the
society, and that a memorial in his favour had been signed
amongst others by a Roman Catholic priest and a Roman
Catholic bishop. Thera had been an assertion that he
(Mr. Fitzgerald), when in office, bad given an appointment
to a person who had been one of the leading rebels in
1818, but that was wholly untrue. (Hear, hear.) He knew
that the course he was taking was likely to expose him to
enmity, especially in Ireland, but he could not help that.
He could only express his feelings in the words of the mo-
tion which he there repeated. He quoted a declaration of
the Downshire Protestant, an organ of the Orange lodges,
that if Lord Derby's Government did not support the
society they would not be supported by the Protestant con-
stituencies in Ireland. Ho then proce ruled to road a pas-
sage from the report of the commissioners on the Belfast
riots ; and he concluded amidst loud applause from the
Opposition.
1 • The O'DONOGHOE seconded the resolution.
- Mr. WHITESIDE said that great questions awaited the
decision of the house, and the hon, gentleman had wasted
his time, not in endeavouring to compose dissensions, but
in reviving forgotten calumny and restoring disagreeable
subjects by stray paragraphs from newspapers and ex-
ploded reports supported by no facts, though his eloquence
was spicy and sarcastic. (Hear.) What had Government
done? What were the facts ? That an honest, competent,
and respectable man had been appointed to a place of 1401.
a-year, for which he was admitted to be competent. He
did not deny that there were abuses of patronage. He had
'seen men in office who deserved to be banged. (Laughter.)
Ha had known men on the Treasury Bench who were a dis-
honour to their country, who would corrupt any assembly,
and would have destroyed the liberties of their native land.
(Cheers and laughter, " Name, name," renewed laughter.)
Macaulay haul written the history of this association, and
had decribe.l their services to the country. Many painful
stories might be told of the history of either country; but
it was not the duty of a patriot to revive painful associa-
tions. The attack was made on the Orange Association, as if
the Government had taken the Orange Association under
its wing. There had been an inquiry in 1836, and it was di-
rected that the Orange Society ought to cease, as the occa-
sion for it was at an end. Everyone spoke moderately, and
Mr.. O'Connell said the time waa come when party strife
should be at an end. The resolutions wore levelled against
all secret societies, and it held that the existence of such
societies was an evidence of something wrong in the body
politic. But ho was a narrow-minded man who, in consi-
dering questions respecting such a society, did not reflect on
the history of the country and the time when it flourished,
and on the circumstances which brought it originally into
existence. These men were then called upon to dissolve,
and did so ; now, for the first time, hypocrisy had been
charged against them. Their books were scattered, and he
was at a loss to know how the book the right hon. gentle.
man had quoted from had got into his possession. The
right hon. gentleman had failed to state why the society
had been reorganised, a circumstance he (Mr. Whiteside)
very much regretted. The society being at an end, Mr.
O'Connell predicted halcyon days for Ireland, and the
Protestants of Ireland were ready to believe in it, but the
true history of the country for the eight subsequent years
were to be found in the statute-book. The year before
the reorganisation of the society Ireland was in a lawless
state, and the crime of Ireland had doubled in enormity
that of the previous year. With regard to the political
change ho would not charge Mr. O'Connell with hypocrisy,
dissimulation, or the hope of gaining money from his
countrymen by adopting a course he disapproved of, but
he was inclined to believe that Mr. O'Connell intended by
his course of action to regenerate his country. It was a
manly policy, but how did he carry it out? Why, by
agitation in order to separate England from Ireland ; and
frisfrafe his scheme this society was reorganised for the
eupee; ei sr. !,g ion, Ido of tho
monarchy, maintaining the Union, and the British pewee
in Ireland. (Hear.) At that time the people of Ireland
believed Mr. O'Connell intended to effect what lie sug-
gested ; but he need not inform the house how much Pee
people of Ireland-were disappointed in the result, The
organisation of the society took place at a tinne teat justi-
fied it. Clubs at that time were to be formed of 500 men
each, and each man was to bo armed- and when 300,000
men were so enrolled they were to act ; and it was to meet
that organisation that the Orange societies were reorga-
nised. (Hear,) At the time of the reorganisation, how-
ever, uo oath, test, or secrecy was observed. The meetings
were open to the police, and the only object the Ministers
I had was to preserve order and the supremacy of the Crown
and the Protestant religion in that country. The late Go-
vernment, however, sanctioned its reorganisation by allow-
ing 6001. worth of guns being received by the members to
defend the Union, the monarchy, and the Protestant reli-
gion against the coutemplated attack of that day. (Hear.)
It was such motions as these that inflamed resentments
that ought to be forgotten in Ireland, and he denied tha't
the province of Ulster was in the state it had been de-
picted by the right hon. gentleman. There had been rio'ee
in Belfast, but they had been put down successfully, and
property was secure and was as high in value there as in
any other part of Ireland. Was there over such a grievance
submitted to the House of Commons as the one that had
been submitted by the right hon. gentleman, viz., that of
his (Mr. Whiteside) having appointed this gentleman to
the office of sessional Crown presenter, on the recommen-
dation of men of position in the country, as a man of most
respectable character, and fully qualified for the discharge
of the duties; and when the late Crown Solicitor was in-
disposed, he was obliged to find a substitute, and the sub-
stitute, approved of by the right hon, gentleman the late
Attorney-General for Ireland (Mr. Fitzgerald), was then
Mr. Cecil Moore. (Cheers.) The sight hon, gendarme
referred to a memorial he had received from the deputy-
lieutell2nts, magistrates, gentry, and clergy of Tyrone,
testifying their hearty approval of the selection of Mr.
Moore for the office of sessional Crown prosecutor.
Amongst the memorialists were fcur Roman Catholic
priests, and many dissenting persons. (Hear.) And of
nineteen or twenty attorneys in the county, sixteen or
seventeen of thorn haul testified to the excellency of the
appointment. (Hear, hear,) He was not aware I.llr.
Cecil Moore held office iu the Orange Association when he
appointed him to office. He ha I held it during the stkg,
the late Itliniery were in office, but ho had since resigned
it, and therefore the resolution proposed to affirm what
did not eeist, and he (Mr. Whiteside) was informed that
for a year and a half Mr. C. Moore had not joined in
friendly meeting with the Orangemen in the county
in which be lived. (Hoar, hear.) That would be
an illiberal, intolerant, and mistaken Government
that did not avail itself of the services of every
man, whatever were hie political opinions, if his
private and public c )nduct was correct and proper. He
never inquired into the political opinions of his subordi-
nates; and only interfered in rofersnce to the qualifications
and fitness of the iren for the office he aspired to fill.
(Hear, hear.) Ike bad never complained of the appoint-
ments et tee eight hon. gentleman (Mr. Fitzgerald) of
organ Catholics to public offices, bat one Protestant
official that he (Mr. Whiteside) had appointed had been
made the subject of impeachment. (Cheers.) This motion
taewace s athat revival
to ht of the worsta speciea of persecution and prac-
vg been forgotko. Mr. C. Moore,
1,1
when he hearcl of the motion, tendered his resignation, but
he 04.. Whitiale) declined to accept it* and be was sure
(Hoar, hear.)
the house would support hire irk that determination,
bring forward sleet; g
It Was llp,ithw wise, politic, nor just to
motion as this, and on such grounds,
and he express:sea a hope that before long ho should see the
and,., of' Ireland a unifier, happy, contented, and free
peoPle, casting from them the rag of ancient prejudice, and
pressing on with that high emulation which became a
wise, ppacectll, alui a happy people. (Cheers, and cries of
Mr. TITZGEFCALD, amid loud cries of "Divide," rose
to make a personal explanation as, to the appointment of
the sessional Crown prosecutor, which he stated had not
been made by hire, If the right hon. gentleman bad
stated ‘9, Uitg OW Mr. Cecil Moore had ceased to be a