The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-31 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 81, 1858.

ini! that in eQfp.)ol.4hinc! a. Sato Chnroli we had begun at
the cvrorw Fed i•• To,
tknn eaa=P4.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (N.. 3) BILL.

The consideration of the Loris' reasons for insisting
upon certain amendments in this bill was then proceeded
with.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,—
When the Lords' amendments to the India B;11 were
brought down for consideration there were five object lone
to those amendments. The Lords have considered the
objections of the Commons, and have waved their opinions
in a majority of the cases. Out three heads they have
waved their opinions, and those threeTheads contain by
far the most important of of the Commons. Bat
they have invited us to reconsider onr objections on two
points, and I wish to direct the consideration of the
house to those point., feeling sure that the house will re-
consider their opinions in the same calm and considerate
manner in which the Lords have expressed theirs. The
first objection is not the one which has been read by the
Clerk at the table, but I will advert to it at once, in order
that I may at the same time tender the advice which I
would humbly venture to offer them on the subject. The
first objection is contained in clause 54, and it appears to
to have originated in a misconception, into which it is
not remarkable that we should have fallen, because the
language of the amendment of the Lords is so obscure as
to justify the interpretation which we bad put upon it.
The clause in question deals with the circumstance of
instructions being sent out to India commanding a
foreign war, and it is here provided that, when an order
to commence hostilities is sent to India, the fact of such
order having been sent shall be communicated to Par-
liament within three months after the seeding of such
order if Parliament be sitting ; and, if Parliament be not
sitting, then within one month after the next meeting
of Parliainent. There appeared to be some inconsist•
ency in that language, and we proposed that one month
should be inserted in both cases. But the amendment
of the Lords intended that notice should be given
of the fact within three months if Parliament should
be sitting, and if it should not be sitting then within
one month after the resumption of its deliberations.
The amendment of the Lords, though obscurely ex-
pressed, was really wisely conceived, for, suppose the
Government sent out meters to India to commence hoe-
Uhl ies, a month would elapse before the Governor-Gene-
ral could receive them. By that time, under the clause
as amended by the Commons, the orders would have
been communicated to Parliament ; but on the arrival
of the instructions in India the Governor-General might
possibly be unprepared at the moment to obey them,
and in that case he would have no time to make the
Home Government acquainted with his position. The
communication of the order for the commencement of
hostilities, however, would thee sese been made to Par-
liament, and so the very power against which it was in-
tsn.:lee to wage war would become aware of the policy of
this country before the Governor-General was in a situa-
tion to give effect to it. (Hoar, hear.) Therefore the
Lords suggested that in any event the term of three
months should be allowed to elapse before the communi-
cation of the order to Parliament, so as to admit of time
being Riven for communication with the Governor• Gen-
era- I hope the house will consider that amendment, I
which is now sent down in language that cannot be mis-
Understood, and I venture humbly to recommend it as
One calculated to promote the public advantage. I will
now proceed to the consideration of the other amend-
ment of the Loris, which is one of great interest at the
present moment. The interest of this amendment arises
Principally from this circumstance, that to a certain de-
gree it has been supposed to affect the action of the com-
petitive principle in public appointments. If I might
presume to give an opinion on that subject, I would say
that I am a firm, though not an extravagant or head-
strong supporter of the competitive principle for public
appointments. In the theory of that principle I entireiy
concur ; but I know well that theory and practice do not
always agree, and I have viewed the application of that
principle with, I will not say great anxiety, but certainly
with all that interest which attends the application of a
novel principle to public affairs. As far as lam able to
form an opinion, I think that principle in its practical
application has been entirely successful. ([Tear ) It has
come out of the ordeal of proof a pure and perfect wea-
pon— (bear, hear)--but still that is a principle very novel
in its character and likely to have important results, and
I cannot suppose that on a question of that novelty and
magnitude there can be throughout the community a
perfect identity of sympathy and opinion. lam not
therefore at all surprised that, when the amendment of
the Lords came down, we found an objection on their
part to binding up the cernpetitive principle, whin i they
fully recognise, in an Act r.f Parliament. The House,
however, decided, after deliberation, not to adopt the
amendment of the Lerde, but to adhere to the clause in
the bill which gave what may he called a Parliammeary
title to employment in the civil service of India °teamed
by unrestricted competitiou. There is another clause of
a different character, in which that principle was to a
certain decree involved, to which the Lords ebj,ct upon
constitutional grounds, and to which I w•eild draw the
attention of the House. It certainly does seem rather
inconsistent that in the very bill which provides that
her Majesty shall appoint to all military commissions
We sl (wild, at the same time, insert a provi,ion which
makes the appointments to a portion of these c moult-
mons entirely independent of the will ..f her Majesty
(Hear.) In that light the L irda have viewed this pro-
vision, arid they are apprehensive that inconvenience
may 'rise from a departure trona a constitutional prin•
clP'e which has alway- prevailed in the mill ary service.
Since 1353 the civil service of the East India Ciirupany
has been open to unrestricted competition, and the civil
patronage has been distribu ed entirely accor icg to the
order of merit, although it was not provided in the Act
of that year that such a proceeding should absolutely be
followed. It was there only provided that there should
be public examinations, according to the regulation-
drawn up by the Secretary of State, and which should
be approved by her Majesty in Council, and that a c py
of those regulations thus approved should be laid
before Parliament in order that Parliament might bi-
aware cf the existing regulation., with any alterations
that might take place in them. Now, what the Lords
object to in the 34th clause is not the principle of
competition, or its being secured with respect to the
scientific branches of the army as amply as it hue been
secured with regard to the civil service since 1853, but
to this being done in a manner which w ni l seem to
violate the constitutional principle which hitherto has
prevailed in all appointments to the military service. I
am sure I do not mistake the feelings of the Ilense when
I say there can be no desire on our part to trench upon
the prerogatives of her Majesty. (Hear, hear.) Tnose
prerogatives during her beneficent reign have been so
discreetly and wisely exercised that there is a very
general opinion throughout all classes of the community
that their existence has been beneficial to our liiterties,
and to the good government of the country. (Rear,
bear.) But, in having to con: ider so large a question as
the transfer of the government of India from the Cern-
pany to the Crown, we have been placed in a difficult
and delicate position, which required on the part of both
branches of the Legi-lature very judicious discrimina.
Con. In this great work we have added greatly to the
authority of her Majesty. We have invested her with
new prerogatives, new privileges, and new powers ; but
in doing that we have felt it our duty to insert new con-
ditions and regulations with respect to those new pri-
vileges and prerogatives which we should not have
thought of introducing if we had had to deal with the
ancient power belonging to the Crown. What has been
the great difficulty which has prevented long before this
the termination of that anomalous government of In Oa
which was carried on by the Company ? It has been felt
for nearly a century that it was a great anomaly that
India should belong to the Engle-h, and yet eheuld not
be directly governed by the Soy reign of England. But
the difficulty of solving. this problem was that no one
could devise any means by which we could deal with the
vast patronage of India. It was always said that it was
more natural and would be more beneficial that the
government of India should be carried on directly by
the Sovereign of England; but there has been, in the
first place, a great apprehension that the power of the
Crown would be dangerously increased by the po +Bess' of
all the patronage which woul I result fromsuch agovern-
meat, and there has been, secondly, a great suspicion in
this country, remembering that India was gained by the
energies of the middle elassesee(hear)—aud that these
classes have long possessed the patronage which they had
fairly won—(bear)—thas the proposed change could not be
effected without injury to the legitimate interests of the
bulk of the community, and a dangerous increase of the
Power of the Crowe. (Hear.) It appears to me that that
difficulty, which has baffled some of our wisest statesmen
and the wisdom of many Parliaments, we have in a great
degree solved by the creation and development of that very
"repetitive principle of which I have been speaking.
(Rear.) Those who before had to consider this question
had not the means or the machinery by which they could
meet the difficulty. We have met them in the present
itehsetapnacterinnaogset
ofeffi leit,e(nlital,yaasnrd, completely. Let us see how
a I ath tnd lle classes after
this great revolution has talegenr. place,e of the transfer from
the Company to the Crown, isaffet ,d by the bill as it
comes down from the Lords. Let us es' hethe in ac-
cotoplishing this great work we have beenee %%'
mindfulerof the
interests of those of our fellow-subtects who have such
strong ckirns upon our consideration. The whole of the
civil service, as the bill comes from the Lords, is secured
entirely to those who deserve to obtain and are cinalified
to Possess these important offices; in other words, the
whole of the civil administration of India is secured by a
Parliamentary title to the great bulk of the community.
If we look to the military portion of the patronage, we
shall find that it will be distributed by a body of men
Who, in position, character, attainments, and connexions,
resemble in a great measure the late Court of Directors,
of a body which must consist in part of members of the
late Court, and which as far as the nominated members
are concerned will be composed of gentlemen of Indian
experience and cennexioas ; so that the larger portion of
the military patronage also will be tlisteibuted among the
middle classes, through almost the same conduits as here-
tofore, except with this advantage, that the new distri-
butors will not be chalked ;in their action by that con-
.nrpaeoited constituency which exercised a baleful influence
rtago.htelite Court of Directors. ;([Tear, hear.) But we have
the ages
military
eight, in deference to the enlightened spirit of
withdraw from the distribution of the Council
commissions eecheswhich relate to the scientific
ministration d
be
c,botatthe army. We have thought that they ought
to
by the same intellectual merit and
which we would secure for the civil ad-
meats ministration, thenandds it is now proposed by the amend-
the civil servic°r— that in addition to giving the whole of
appointments :;italind the
classes, so also corn greater portion of the military
army should be obtained a parliamentary title to the middle
ssions of a scientific character in the
tenuity upon precisely similar by the same section of the cere-
ment ofAtho Lords, srmilar conditions. By the .
first drawn, constitutio
s'
48 compared with the clause as it was
net e—
n sesese which we ought to respect

are more completely observed, but the same advantages are
secured. Unler these circnnietances, I treat the 'armee will
confider withont prejudicethis particuler emendment of the
other branch of the Legislature, will, upon reflection, be of
opinion that it is an amend rneut made in no spirit ef hos
tility to that application of the ce npetitive principle to the
scientific branch- s of the army which we seek to maintain,
er dictated by any other feeling than a respect to censtitu-
tionsl usages, and will be pi epared, in thesame spiritof
ciliation and reciprocal respect which tins attended these
discussion, to accept alterations insertat by the Lords. Let
,00 impress npon the house one consideration which ought,
not to be absent from our minds in concluding our
labours upon this important question. There has rarely
been a subject of legislation more important than the
one with which we have dealt in this sess'on respect-
ing the Home Government of ladle. Let the house re-
collect that for upwards of 70 years this question has
been, at intervals, the subject of parliamentary discus-
sion—that it has given rice to the greatest acerbities of
feeling and prolonged acrimony of political sentiments;
that it convu!sed Cabinets, dissolved Parliaments, and that
finally it has been recognised by the country as one of those
knots that no ingenuity and no impartiality could ever
untie. I claim no merit for the Government in having
brought this matter to some satisfactory conclusion. I
claim some merit for Parliament and some for the House
of Commons ; but I claim the chief merit for the more
enlightened spirit of the times in which we live, for the
diffused education of the country where we have the hap-
piness to be fellow-citizens, and the rising sense of value
which we all of us attribute to intellectual acquirements,
and our recognition of them as a proper qualification for
admission to civil service. This spirit has assisted us in
bringing this bill to its present state. It is, I think, only
surprising that there have not been greater differences of
opinion between the two houses and among ourselves in
this house; but what I would impress on the House of
Commons is this—the great desirability there is that this
legislation should be brought to a conclusion without leav-
ing on any side and in any quarter, in an• state or condi-
tion of this country, any feeling of irritation or jealousy.
(Hear, hear.) It is impossible that the middle cl seas,
whose claims have been urged so freely, fairly, and con-
etantly in this house and in other places—it is impossible
that the great body of the community can for a moment
feel that their claims have not been regarded. We have
effected this change, if the house to-night consents to this
fioal step ; and so far as the pat' onage of the great empire
of India—won, I freely admit by the energies of the middle
classes —is concerned, the great bulk will be obtained and
enjoyed by those middle casses, not only with the cer-
tainty which they enjoyed in old days, but with far more
honour, and by a process infinitely more beneficial. (Hear,
hear.) Let not, therefore, the other house think that in
coming to what I may call a happy conclusion, we obtained
that result by any disregard in this house of the fair
prerogatives of the Crown. lam sure that those prero-
gatives are duly estimated, and will be, if necessary, pro-
perly protected in this house, and let us, by acceding to
this suggestion of the Lords, conclude our Tabours with
this conviction, that we have, after all our pains, esta-
blished, on the whole, a home Government for
India adapted to the circumstances with which it will
have to deal, and have at the same time effected this ob-
ject without creating jealousy, suspicionser discetie'• c'
in any portion of the community over v leer; ear Majesty
reigns. (Hear.) I trust 11'.0 LD:I,6 will, therefore, consent
to the Amend.LL,L,-, wince the Lards have proposed to the
clause ; and Ic in only say, on the part of the Go-
vernment, that in making that recommendation we do it
with the full and frank int ,ntion of establishing, with re-
spect to the scientific branches, that wise and beneficial
competition which will prevail in the civil service of India.
It will be ono of the first duties of my noble friend, if the
house accedes to this proposition, to draw up regulations
which will rule the examinations in question, and which,
when approved by her Majesty in Council, will be laid on
the table of the house. They will then be open to the
criticism and vigilance of the house, and whenever any
alterations are made they will likewise belannounced to the
house. We shall then have tho satisfaction of having esta-
blished the competitive principle by Act of Parliament
throughout the whole civil service of India • or having
secured to the great body of the community the free enjoy-
ment of military patronage, by its distribution_through a
council sympathising with thorn ; and of having at the
Caine time secured the competitive principle even in the
scientific branches of the army, and that in a manner which
no one can say has attacked or weakened any prer gative
or right of any person in this country, from the Sovereign
on her throne to the humblest of her subjects. (Hear.)
The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving that the
house do not insist on its disagreement with the amend-
ment made by the Lords.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that the right hon. gentleman had
put the question on an unfair footing. The service in India
consisted of three parts—viz., the civil ; then the Engineers
and Artillery ; and, lastly, the army. For the two first
the competitive system was very properly to baintroduced,
bat by the alteration made inthe House of Lords it was
proposed that the rest of the army should be appointed in
another way. (Cries of "No! ") He wanted to know
why, if in selecting persons for the two most onerous and
~difficult branches of the service in India they applied to the
principle of competition, they should not apply to the same
principle in reference to the third branch ? The objection
was that by so doing they would interfere with the prero- '
gatives of the Crown, but was there not as much inter-
ference with the prerogatives of the Crown by establishing
competition for the first two branches of the servicolie had
mentioned ? If there bad been difficulty heretofore in
changing the Government of India, because great danger
was apprehended from throwing a large amount of patron-
age into the I-ands of the Crown, how could that danger he
so well removed as by throwing open to competition all
branches of service in India ? That house hal much better
apply itself, not to arranging patronage between the aris-
tocracy and mid Ile classes, but toobtaining a good instru-
ment by throwing open the whole of those branches of the
service to a real competition. The proper course would
to throw open the competition to every one who chose to
place his name upon the register, and if there were 10
vacancies and 1,000 rs d da -es the whole 1.000 candi,tates
ought to undergo examination. If thi, pr.nciple were
applied to India it would have greater effect in doing away
with the patronage of the Crown, without endangering the
equilibrium of the Government, than any measure that
could be adopted. He contended, therefore, that the
house ought to insist upon perfect, open, and complete
competition for ledi in appointments. (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. Ree wLINSON observo.l that the only question
haferti the house was with reference to the competition f.-r
the scientific services. (Hear.) Ile did not oppose the
motion that the house should agree with the Lords' amend-
ment, but he thought the nature of the clause had been
entirely misunderstood when it was supposed to affect the
Queen's prerogative. It must be remembered that the
system of appointments in the Indian army differed
entirely from that in the Royal army. Her Msjesty
never did nominate directly—and it was not proposed toe
this bill that she should nominate directly—to any branch
of the *alien army. Her Majesty merely appointed ou
the recommendation of the Secretary of State, and could
it make any difference whether that recommendation was
the result of competition or of private patronage ? If
officers of the artillery and engineers were not to obtain
appointments by competition they would obtain them in
the first instance by the nomination of members of Coun-
cil, some of whom would not owe their position to the
Secretary of State or to the Crown, but to the votes of
the Court of Directors. So far as the prerogative was
concerned, it seemed to him that there could be no differ-
ence between recommendations which were the result of
competitions and recommendations which were the result
of private patronage. The 31th clause did nat provide for
an exclusive competition, for a sentence in the civil ser-
vice clause was designedly omitted from the clause relat-
ing to the scientific branches, in order that the establish-
ment at Addiscombe might—if it were thought advisable
by the Secretary of State —be maintained. The object
was to secure a double competition, the open competition
proposed by the claese, and the limited competition of
Addiscombe, The system of competition had already been
successfully adopted in the civil service. It was now pro-
posed that the same experiment should be tried iu the
case of tho artillery and engineers, and ho entertained a
confident belief that it would ho equally successful in
those branches of the service. He thought it desirable,
however, that the establishment at Addiscombe should be
kept up, for whether the corspetition was thrown entirely
open, or the limited competition of Addiscombe was re-
tained, the candidates for the scientific branches of the
service would be drawn from the same class as at present.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said the question under discus-
sion seemed to become more and more complicated, for it
now appealed that there had been some private under-
standing that there was not to be an open competi-
tion, but that A rdiscombe was to have its chance, and
that those candidates who proved their competency
would not necessarily receive appointments. No inti-
mation of such an arrangement had, as far as ha was
aware, been given by any member of her Ma-
jesty's Government, and, notwithstanding the very able
and comprehensive speech of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, he felt bound—more so, indeed, than he had felt him-
self previously--to vote for disagreeing with the Lords'
amendment. He entirely concurred with the opinion of
the hon. member (air H. Rawliuson) as to the beneficial re-
sults which might be anticipated from competitive exami-
nations. This question had very j ustly during the present
discussion bean connected with the au j set of patronage,
about which not a word had been said in the other house.
where the question had bean treated only as affecting the
prerogative ; but one of his main objects, in common with
many other hon. members, was to withdraw from the hands
of the Minister a great portion of the patronage which this
bill would place at the disposal of the Geyer° meat. (Hear.)
He thought also that the effect of the competitive system
opals the military information of the country ought nut to
be lost sight of in considering this question. Tue noble
mein oer fur Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) had said on a for-
mer occasion that we wore a warlike nation without being
a military natiou, and it was to bo regretted that, the
people did not pos-ess such au amount of military informa-
tion as would be most useful in the defence of this country
and its possessions against foreign Powers. It had been
state t by two eminent members of that house, one of them
the present Lerd Chancellor of Ireland, who had strongly
ad vomited the adoption of the competitive system, that its
effect was t give a stimulus to scholastic education
throughout the country. The noble lord at the head of the
Government (Lord Derby) had spoken on this subject in
another place in a most conciliatory tone, but all the noble
lords who had exoressed their opinions had not followed
his example. One of those noble lords (Lord Campbell)
—one of the highest dignitaries of the law—had accused
that house of having lost its senses on this suhject. (" Hear"
and a laugh.) That noble lord had sail that the House of
Commons had gone wild, anti he added that the House of
Commons ought to be suljected—{The hon. and gallant
member was stopped by a call of • Order" from the Speaker,
in enforcement of the rule which prohibits any hon. member
from quosing debates in the other house.] He must say
he thought the noble and learned lord had done himself in
justice, for he believed the profession iu which that noble
lord had gained such distiuguished honour was more ex-
posed to the principle of competition than perhaps any
otborintis country. Not a day passed ire which persons
did not go through competitive examinations in order to
their
being
learned lord saidcalled as barristers. (Hear.) The noble and
he was in favour of discriminative exa-
minations, though what he meant by that term the noble
and learned lord did net very clearly explain. (Hear.) A
noble earl, in another lace, contended that the introduc-
tion of a system of competitivei'tl, examinations would pro-
duce
ffisees;aciia.al
trheevoalrumtiyonw- gentlemen and
excludedappointments
en t vfv. front thhee soeur
--
1 vice, and that in future the a
fined to the seas of rich grocers'
(Hear.) Those statements were,
ivari-
anceclass. with the facts which had eon brought' forward a'
y
the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland whim be wra'svaarna
bar of that house. He showed the system of ceurpotitTO-
examination in Ireland bad werked in a totally contrary
direction—that 93 out of 100 of the
young men examined
belonged to the most respectable classes of sse'eao
the sons of gentlemen and men of odes:ohm. (iie'si.) He
therefore regarded tte, esonmeet on the other side on this
subject PS elnoeether unworthy of notice. (Ilear.) Hehad
the 'tritest confidence in the noble lord now at the hoed of
the Board of Control ; but the noble lord had no
perma-
nent tenure of office, and then he could not forget that

while the members of the Government in that House were
in favour of core:setit;ve, examination, and oily opposed
a technical diffieults to its losing enforced by Act of Perlia-
went, the head of the Goverdinent in the other house
poke of the principle of competition as being "on
its trial," and thought it would be " highly inje-
dicious to tie up the loaeds of the Executive Govern-
ment.," and oblige them to take the ph-sons who had
sustained the best examinations. (Hear, hoar ) It did
net, therefore, appear to be in the contemplation of the
noble earl to give appointments as a matter of course to
the:es who sustained the best examinations (Hear, hear.)
He thought the competitive principle the best security
that could he adopted for securing the efficiency of the
services in the Indian army, and therefore he hoped they
would disagree with the Lords' amendment. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—I am one of those who are in
favour of the principle of appointments by competitive
examination. I think it is a great improvement of recent
times, bnt at the same time it is not universally applicable.
(Hear.) With regard to the civil service I think it is an
excellent system, provided always that the standard of
examination is not too high—(hear, hear)—and that per-
sons are not expected to be full of more knowledge than is
necessary as a test of their capaity for the service. (Hear.)
My opinion is that it is also a good system for the officers
of the scientific branches of the army, because in 'nerd
to them high attainments are of the first importance.
(Hear.) At the same time, it is right to admit that the
e
application of the system to the scientific branches is but
of recent standing, and therefore those who entertain a
different opinion from me may fairly be entitled to require
a somewhat longer experience of the practical result of the
asynsdt egna3
lat
nh rfrihas
nd ywehto
has j
us
bt teaaitn eddo.w
n(
iTrairglit in sya yh
that the application of the system of competitive examina-
tion to the scientific branches of the British army has been
perfectly satisfactory, and especially in that country of
vdeirsyt iandmon whichwh o
are hasa
cwohniterhi bhuet ei ds Sao
credit to the profession with which they era connected.
(Hear.) I disagree, however, with the hon. and learned
largengtlis distinguished
number o f ornament,
yo ung
member for Sheffield when he speaks of the applicability
of competitive examinations for officers of the line. (Hear.)
The test of learning which you would apply to a young
man who is a candidate for a commission would be no
necessary test of his capacity for the service in which he is
to be engaged. (Hear.) It would be just as if you
wished to find out whether or not a man was an excellent
pugilist, and the test you applied was whether he
could run fast. (A. laugh.) The test is not at all of the
kind which would prove whether the man was capable of
discharging tie duties which he ha l to perform. (Hear.)
My opinion, then, is that the house is right in maintain-
ing for the civil service of India the system of competitive
examinations which has now been established for several
years. I am also of opinion that it would be expedient to
establish the same system for the scientific branches of the
Indian army which you have ,steblislisil for Vas ssiontitic
branches of the general army. (riaar, Leer.) So far as I
understand the nertesfioe we are now called on to deter-
mine, it is eimply one as to the manner in which the com-
petitive examination is to be adopted. (Hear.) I think
there is great force in the argument that it would be a de-
parture from the ordinary principles of the constitution if
we were to pass an act of Parliament which should render
it imperative cn -the Sovereign to give commissions to par-
ticular individuals. (Hear, hear.) I think the regulations
which shall establish a competitive examination for the
scientific branches of the Indian army ought to be based
on orders in Council coming from the Royal authority, and
not be a system imposed by a stanline law. (Hear.) If,
therefore, I am to understand from the Government that
they are prepared to pledge themselves that they will issue
an order in Council establishing competitive examinations
for the scientific branches of the Indian army, I should
prefer that mode of accomplishing the object to having it
done by act of Parliament. (Hear.) We have now arrived
at the moment wh n this bill must pass into a law. We
have all of us in the course of the discussions that have
taken place been compelled to surrender opinions which
wo have entertained, and the result will be a general com-
promise on the part cf all those who have taken part in
carrying forward the measure, (Hear, hear.) As the Lords
have adopted almost all the amendments we made, I am
inclined to think that it would be graceful on our part to
yield to them upon this question, (Hear, hear) I think,
also, that the method of proceeding by order in Council
would be more in accordance with the general principles of
the constitution than if we were to enforce the principles
we are in favour of by an act of Parliament. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHITE said there was an essential difference be-
tween the position of the army of India and the army of
this country. In this country we passed a Mutiny Act
and also voted the supplies ; but we passed no Mutiny Act
for India, and could not withhold the supplies for their
army. He was not prepared to give the Crown se much
power as was here proposed without imposing a check of
some kind or other. (Hear, hear.) He thought that this
house would do well to insist upon their original bill, and
as nobody who was right could be ridiculous, he should, if
he stood alone, divide the house upon the subject. (Hear.)
Col. SYKES said that if, as he understood was the case,
the Government intended to adhere in the army to the
practice adopted in the Queen's army- -if cadets intended
for the scientific branches were to compete for entry into
a military college—he should vote with the noble lord
(Stanley) on this question. (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM—Before the President of the Council
addresses the house it will perhaps be convenient for him
to hear the opinion of different members, who, like myself,
have taken some little interest in the subject now under
discussion. I entirely agree with the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that this question of Indian patronage has
really been the obstacle certainly for half a century, to the
transfer of the government of India from the Company to
the Crown. It has really been at the root of the anomaly
which has continued to the present time the government
of that mighty empire in the hands of a commercial body.
I have always felt the right solution of that question to
to be one of immense constitutional difficulty ; and among
other reasons which swayed me throughout this session, in
an earnest desire for the postponement of the decision
upon the change of government, was the difficulty which I
felt respecting the future distribution of' this Indian
pat onago. Now, I am bound to say that in my humble
judgment the bill before us, as it went up from the Com-
mons to the Lords, (lid in a very fair manner solve the dif-
ficulty in the distribution of patronage which it provided.
(Rear, hear.) To her Majesty directly was given by the
29th clause of this bill a great accession of patronage.
The Govercor-General of India, the Governors of the Pre-
sidencies, the fourth member of the Council of India, and
the Advocate-General—all these officers are henceforth to
be appointed by her Majesty under warrant and by her
sign manual. It placed these offices at the disposal of her
Majesty, acting by her constitutional advisers, whereas
heretoicra none of these appointments were made by the
Crown; and with respect, I think, only to ono of them,
that of the Governor-General (I am not quite sure as to
the Governors of the Presidencies), the power of veto only
was vested in her Majesty. Then, with respect to the civil
patronage, as has been already stated, the arrangement
which has prevailed for three years under an order in
Councl—namely, that the civil service shall be open to
the free competition of all classes- has now been confirmed
dared irrevocable except by a repeal of this act duly
by a clause assented to by both houses, and is thus ren-
sanctioned by the Legislature. Now, such a concession
appears to me a most importantone. It recognises fur the
first time in an act of Parliament the principle of open
competition with reference to a great branch of th public
service. Much, therefore, as it appears to me, is gained
by the measure as it stands. But then comes the consti-
tutional questicn. By tying up that, or other portions of
the patronage, do we infringe the prerogative ? The House
of Lords in their reasons seem to assert that such an in-
fringement is involved in the clause, as we sent it up to
them, respecting a portion of the Indian patronage. Now,
I cannot draw that fine distinction between tho military
patronage and other large portions of the civil patronage.
(Hear, hear.) In the very chose which gives to her Ma-
jesty the great appointments I have mentioned, those of
the Gov.rnor-General and the Governors of tire Presiden-
cies, there is a special reservation of another very im-
portant branch of patronage relating to the councils of
the Governors of the different presidencies ; and there
is a statutable assignment of the patronage for ever.
not to her Majesty, but to the Secretary of State
in Council, with the concurrence of a majority of
his council. The clause does-not say that her Majesty's
pleasure shall be taken. It does not even provide
that these appointments shall take place under the sign
manual. As I read the clause these appointments are abso-
lutely vested in the Secretary of State and a majority of
his council. Here, then, is a very important branch of
patronage not to be exercised by the Crown ; and with re-
spect to the junior members of the civil service I have
already stated that these appointments are, by the consent
of the House of Loris, henceforth to be given to those who
upon an examination shell stand first in point of merit.
The constitutional objection, therefore, whatever nary be
its force, appears to rue to apply equally to both these pro-
vision,. (Hear.) Now, it is very remarkable that in the bill
of the noble lord (Palmerston) it was provided that there
should be an attestation in respect to the European troops
to be furnished by her Majesty in Council. The bill sent
up to the Lords provides no such attestation, and does not
deal in the slightest degree with the transfer to the Crown
of the attesting power wish respect to the European por-
tion of the Indian army. Clause 4 ) in the noble for 'II bill
declared that all Indian officers henceforth should be the
officers of her Majesty. There is no such declaration in the
bill which we seat up to the other house. We have hitherto
studiously reserved the question o the Indian army. It
was so stated by the noble lord (Stanley), who, in answer
to the right hoe. gentleman (Hr. V. Smith), said that the
whole question of the Indian army was referred to a com-
mission here, and partly also to a commission in India, and
that the subjects connected with the reorganisation of that
army were not to be mixed up with the question :at present
under discussion. Now, clause 33 of this bill, as we sent it
up to the Lards, has drawn quiterightly the distinction be-
tween the military and the civil services. It has most
guardefily recognised to a certain extent the authority of
the Crown, yet without making a complete concession of
the whole appointments to the Indian army. With regard
to the civil service it is distinctly provided that those per-
sons only, without exception, who shall succeed in open
Coln pAition shall be appointed; and as to the military ser-
vice, clause 13 enacts that the names of all persons norni-
, ne ed in the manner which the bill provides shall be sub-
mitted and recommended to her Majesty. But there is a
reservation as to the scientific branches—the artillery and
engineers ; and in the clause immediately following that to
which I have adverted, even with respect to them, as we
sea it up to the Lords, persons who receive the certificate
of superior merit are to be recommended for these appoint-
ments ; clearly, therefore, recognising the general control-
ling power of the Crown—not going the length as regards
the military which we went as regards the civil service—
but adhering to the principle that open competition in the
Indian army, as in her Majesty's army in the scientific
branches, ought to be the rule of appointineet. (Fear,
hoer •) ,Now, it only remains to consider the question as
between an Order in Council and the statute. If I could
bring myself to believe that the application of the statute
to the Indian araiy, in which her Majesty's authority is
not now supreme was a dangerous infringement of the
prerogative, nothing would induce nse to vote in favour of
that principle. It appears to me, however, that there is
no such infraction of this prerogative. But we aro told
that we in this house are enamoured of this principle of
open competition, and that it may with advantage be ap-
plied to ourselves. (A laugh.) Now, Ido not wish to handy
any jeers and gibes of th at kind with the 0'.1.,er House of
Parliament. (Hear.) 'P.: do SJ would conduce neither to
the advanto set c,l house nor be quite consistent with
tlt peee„ interests. (Hear.) I am, however, entitled to
ask, where is hereditary wisdom to be found? (Hear, and
a laugh.) In what consists the justice of the taunt that
India must henceforth be governed by gentlemen to the
exclusion of the middle classes—a gentleman being defined
to be something between a peer of Parliament and those
who buy and sell. (Hear, and a laugh.) Is this, I would
ask, the only argument that can b 3 advanced against the

system of competitive examinations? (Cheers.) Who, let
me ask, founded—who won our Indian emphe ? (Hee, ,
hear.) Those Who bought and sold. (Cheers.) Who
extended it? Those who bought and sold. (Hear, hear.)
Who now transfer that empire to the Crown? Those who
bought and sold— a company of merchants—merchants, for-
sooth, whose sons are now not thought worthy to have
even inferior offices in India committed to their hands.
(Cheers.) But are not the sons of tho e who buy and sell
entitled to the appellation of gentlemen ? (Hear, hear.)
Definitions are dangerous, but I should, nevertheless, like
to know what it is that constitutes a gentleman. (Hear,
hsar.) Why, Sir, it appears to me that if a man be im-
bued with sound Christian principles, if he have received
an enlightened and liberal education, if he be honest, and
virtuous, and honourable— it appears to me; I say, that•
such a man as that is entitled to the appellation. (Cheers.)
And who will tell me that among the sons of those who
buy and sell may net be found men possessing literary
attainments and a refinement of mind which places them
in a position to bear comparison with the highest born
gentleman in India? (Hear, hear.) Who, let me ask,
were the conquerors of that country ? From what class
have they sprung? Who was Clive? (Hear, hear.) The
son of a yeoman. Who was Munro ? The son of a Glas-
gow merchant. (Hear, hear.) Who was Malcolm? The
son of a sheep farmer upon the Scotch borders :
Criribus parvis et paupere terrft
Minus in imperium magnum."
(Cheers.) These, Sir, are the men who have won for us our
Indian empire—(cheers)—and I entertain no fear that the
sons of those who buy and sell, and who enter the Indian
service by means of this principle of open c ,mpetition, will
fail to maintain a high position in our army, or that they
will do anything to dishonour the English eame. (Hear )
I have none of those fears therefore with respect to the
adoption of this principle which are in some quarters enter.
tamed. I believe it gives a greater security to the appoint-
ment of efficient men than a mere system of patronage
would afford.. (Hear, hear.) Patronage is liable to be con-
stantly nbia-eil for political purposes. It operates in many
instances in cases in which the person who makes the ap-
pointment has little cr no knowledge of the person upon
whom the appointment is conferred. (Hear, hear.) Open
competition on the contrare, brings the man before you.
(Hear. hear.) And what are his claims when he does pre-
sent hires lf ? In the first place, he brings with him the
assurance that he is a man of industrious habits. (Hear.)
He also affords some guarantee that he is a man of great
self-control; that his life has been spent in virtuous pur-
suits, inasmuch as his attainments point out a preference
for mentel as contrasted with sensual enjoyment.. ( beer,
hear.) Then, what is the ennobling spirit of his life ?
Ambition. A desire for honourable fame. (Hear.) What
are the domestic virtues which he exhibits? A desire to
win the favour and approbation of his friends, and even-
tually to contribute to the support of his aged parents.
(Hear, bear.) Such are the moral qualities w'rieli he
principle of open competition will sseure, and upon those
groands I for one rr f,t that prieciple deliberately to pa-
tronage with all its corrupting influences. (Cheers.) I
cannot believe that I am violating any public duty, or in-
fringing any prerogative of the Cro wr, in advocating tLe
extension to a small portion of the appointments in the
military service in India of a principle which Parliament
has consented to apply to the whole of the civil service in
that country. I cannot sea the fine-drawn distinction
which appears to be made between the two services; and
if I am driven to a division, which I trust will not be the
case, I shall feel compelled to record my vote against the
amendment which has been introduce 1 into this clause in
the other House of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) I wish to
pay no fine compliment to the noble lord the President of
the Board of Control. He has told us in emphatic terms
that he would rather resign his office to-morrow than take
any step which, in his Conscience and judgment., he be-
lieved to be subversive of the principle for which he, in
common with myself, has contended. In the honour of
the noble lord I place the most implicit reliance. (Hoar,
hear.) I am perfectly willing to trust in him, but I
must be permitted to say that I do not think he now
knows all the difficulties with which this amendment
is surrounded, I feel confidant, however, that he
would not give to it his support if he were not of
opinion that, consistently with his duty, he could uphold
the principle which I advocate. lam also prepared to
admit that there is this difference between the application
of the principle cf open competition to the civil and its
extension to the military service. In the case of the for-
mer you have experience to guide you; while in the case
of the latter you do not as yet possess that salutary advan-
tage. If, moreover, we leave this important question for
the present, subject to be dealt with by an Order in Council,
experience will soon come to our assistance and tell us
whether it be or be not desirable to fix by means of a legis-
lative enactment the footing upon which it is for the future
to stand. Having made these observations, I beg again to
repeat my adherence to the principle of unrestricted com-
petition, and if, therefore, the house should go to a divi-
sion, it will be my duty to vote against the amendment to
which the noble lord asks us to assent. (Cheers.)
Lord STANLEY—I concur with the right hon, gentle-
man in every word which he has said with respect to the
advantages of a system of open competition as opposed to
the system of patronage. I agree with him, moreover, in
the comments which by implication he has made upon the
remarks to which expression has been given elsewhere upon
this subject, an I I am quite willing to repeat this evening
to the house the pledge which a few days ago I ventured
to give them—namely, that I would support no proposi-
tion which in my judgment and belief was hostile to the
principle of open and unrestricted competition. (Hear,
hear.) What we have now to consider, however, is whe-
ther, owing to the amendment which has been introduced
into this clause, that principle is or is not really in danger.
We are not at present dealing with appointments in the
civil service, or in the non-scientific branches of the army.
We are dealing exclusively with what are known as the
scientific branches of the military service —namely, the
artil ery and engineers. The question which we have to
consider, however, is not whether the system of open com-
petition should be applied in the case of admissions to these
two branches of the service. To its adoption in those in-
stances the Government has given its assent. The framing
of the order in Council by which those admissions aro to
be regulated will necessarily rest with myself, and neither I
nor the GOveigimeiit'of which lam a member could conic to
this house and say that we had fulfilled our pledges if that
order in Connell wore riot to sanction the adoption of this
principle of open competition in its fullest extent. ([fear.)
Well, then, comet:the question, in what consists the differ-
ence, practically speaking, between the clause as amended
by the Other house of Parliament and as it stood when we
sent it up to that house ? Merely in the circumstance that
in the latter case the guarantee—l use the word advisedly
—for the maintenance of the principle of free competition
was supposed to be contained in the act itself, whereas, if
the amendment of the House of Lords be adopted, it will
rest upon the security of an order in Council. Now, I say
that this supposed guarantee appeared to be, rather than
was, actually embodied in the clause as it left the House of
Commons. The clause then provided that candidates
" who might be found entitled, &c., might be recom-
mended for appointments according to the order of their
proficiency. " Recommended ;" yes, but not appointed.
(Hear, hear.) There was nothing in the clause as it origin-
ally stood to render it compulsory on the Crown to make
those appointments. All that it made imperative was that
the Minister for India should "recommend" to the Crown
those who had passed one of these competitive examinations
in the order of their success. (Hear, hear.) The clause,
therefore, afforded no legal guarantee that they would re-
ceive the appointments Co which they had become entitled.
It, no doubt, gave you a moral guarantee upon the subject,
as d that guarantee, I contend, the clause as amended con-
tains. (Hear, bear.) For my own part I have great faith
in the system of unrestricted competition. It is of compa-
ratively recent origin, but has Eneadily made its way.
Every year brings over to it some new converts from the
ranks of those by whom it was at first opposed. (Hear.)
It will, I believe, prove itself eventually to be stronger
than all Governments and all Parliaments—superior, in
short, to all the influences which can be brought to bear
against it. Holding that belief I am the loss solicitous
about the precise degree of cogency which may be supposed
to belong to the machinery by which this system is pro-
posed to bo carried into effect. I would now ask the house
to consider what has been done by the supporters of the
competitive principle (luring the progress of the measure
under our notice. The scientific branches of the army
were not open to competition of even a modified character.
Whatever you have
gained under the order in Council is
so much clear gain to the principle which we a lvocate,
and you will gain something more. Although practically
the civil service was open to competition after the pledge
given by the Govertuaent of 1853, yet it was not until the
present year that the pledge was embodied in an Act of
Parliament and received the sanction of the Legislature. I
thinkhon. gentlemen who object to this amendment, do not
quite uuderstand the advance that has been made in this
respect. We have for the first time declared that a Par-
' liamentary title shall be given to executive appointments.
Th:it is a new principle, which has not hitherto prevailed
in this country. That principle you have extended to
the civil service. Lot me say, in passing, that when you
have once admitted the principle and laid down a rule
to give a Parlieruentary title to one class of offices it is
very difficult to draw a distinction that will limit its ap-
plication to the civil service only. I think, therefore,
that the advocates of the competitive system have gained
largely already. With respect to the military service,
it is simply placed upon the same footing as was the
ciuil service five years ago, when competition was esta-
blished by order in Council. Looking at that circum-
stance, believing that whether you regar it as a matter of
practice or of principle, seeing that the principle of a
Parliamentary title to executive appointments has already
been recognised by both houses, it seems to me that the
difference between that which we proposed and that which
the other house has a +opted is so small that, considering
upon how many points they have given way, and that this
neither in pr ,ctice nor theory can be called a large modifi-
cation of the principle of competition, I think we should
be justified in accepting the amendments of the House of
Lords. (Hear, hear.)
competitive system to a
esctlei
ilred was not such as to
Mr. CO N ING HAM, amidst impatient cries of "Divide,"
er in which the Horse
Gsdyeuse
atl
ear
m(riesd,
opfl: bas pi rftvegnfeea rgweean.
sc eaTtoihmfe tnihni
induce him to agree in increasing the patronage already
possessed by the Court. He hoped the house would insist
upon having the clause as it was sent to the other house,
amid would not yield to an attempt to compel them to!give
up what they considered to be an important principle.
The hou divide dupon the question that it should not
insistupon disagreeing
with the Lords' amendment upon
clause 34, respecting the scientific branches of the army,
when there appeared—
Ayes
Noes
Majority
The Lords' amendment was therefore adopted.
The amendment of the Lords altering the period within
which notice of instructions sent out to India to commence
hostilities should be given to Parliament from one to three
months was agreed to.
This terminated the proceedings in the Government of
India Bill ss far as this house is concernerl.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.
The Lords amendments in this bill were then taken into
consideration.

93

Mr. COWPER said a few words iron ol:o of the Lords'
amendments upon this b':!, tthieit were agreed to.
DiLITISH COLUSIBIA. BILL.
. .

The Lord's amendments to this bill were agreed to.
Tho Lords' amendments on the Cornwall Submarine
Mines Bill wore agreed to.
The Lords' amendments to the Clerks of Petty Sessions
(Ireland) ill were agreed to.
The Lords' amendments to the Friendly Societies Act
Amendment Bill were also agreed to.
The Lords' amendments to the Art-Union Indemnity
B'll were also agreed to.
DIVORCE AND MATRIMONIAL CAUSES BILL.
The Lards' amendments to this bill were agreed to, with
the exception of one clause which introduced a new fen-

tare in the bill, which was intended to be merely a con-
di:nonce bill.

NEW. WRITS BILL.
The Lords' amentimenis to the Now Writs Bill -wore
agreed to.

JUDO- tIENTS (IRELAND) lITLE,
The Lords' amendments to this bill w, To agreed to.
CIVIL BILLS (IRELAND) BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this bill were also agreed te.
RESOLUTION ON THE INDEPENDENCE OF
MEMBERS.

Mr. SCH'N'EMER wished to call the attention of the
house to the resolution passed on the Pel of Jere) last, which
was quite impracticable, and could not be carried into
effect. He fully agreed with the spirit of the resolution,
and ha I voted fur it; lint the language wag so wile as to
inclu le cases which had net been contemplated by the
noble lord (Lord Hotham) who had moved it. Especially
it had not been intended to apply to the case of the Attor-
ney and Solicitor-General, but yet the langunee embrac d
both of them. These officers were paid, not by salaries,
but by fees, and it could not be the intention of the house
that they should be deprived of their fees. But since the
resolution had been passed more than one member of the
long robe ha I supported measures in reference to which he
had at one time or another received a fee. The reselution
would even apply to the bon, member for Whitby (Mr.
Stephenson). Years ago that hon. member had been asked
to give his advice on the main drainage of the metropolis ;
and in this session he had lent his assistance to carry out
a bill embodying his views. In the present state of the
house, and at this period of the session, he (Mr. Schneider)
felt that he would not be doing his duty if he did more
than call the attention of the house to the subject ; but
be hoped that some member of the Government would
take the matter into his consideration, and would next
session bring forward some resolutions which would
really carry out the intention of the noble lord (Lord
netball), while it should be free from the objections he
bad stated. He was afraid that several hon. members
bad had input ationscast upon them in consequence of the
language of the resolution. The noble lord who had moved
it, if he had been present, would, he felt confident, have
corroborated his statement, that he had never intended to
cast imputations upon hon. members. In conclusion, he
would move that the terms of the resolution should be read.
The resolution having been read,
Mr. WARREN read a letter from Lord Hotham, who
had been unavoidably detained at a public meeting in the
North of England. He stated that he had not overlooked
the cases of the Attorney and Solicitor-General, for their
position in respect to fees received for Government busi-
ness was not more objectionable than the case of a Minister
paid by salary. Ho (Hr. Warren) hoped that the G
vernment would not rashly interfeee wi' the resolution
to which the house 1).1,1 lei a ely come.
The A.TTOetNEY-GENERAL regretted that the hon.
member for Norwich (Mr. Schneider) had barn prevented
from calling the attention of the house at an earlier period
to the terms of the resolution. The resolution was one of
great importance ,-not so much as affecting the interests of
members of the bar who were also members of the house,
but as affecting the independence of every member of Par-
liament, and the right of every "subject of the realm to
consult what counsel he pleased. If the resolution only
went to prevent any member from receiving any pecuniary
reward for advocatingor supporting a measure in the house,
no one could possibly object to it, for such conduct would
he highly unconstitutional and illegal. He must express
his thanks to the hon. member for Norwich for having pri-
vately informed him that a report had been circulated, from
which it appeared that it had really been supposed that he
(the Attorney-General) had accepted a largo sum of money,
50It/., from some Indian prince or gentleman, with a view
to the advocacy of his interests in this house. He should
have thought that it was unnecessary to allude to the re-
port—(hear) —but it afforded him the opportunity of say-
ing that a large sum of money had been offered to him by
an individual, who thought that by so doing ho could ob-
tain his support to his interests. He informed that gentle-
man, who was not any of the Princes of Oude, nor be-
longed to the principality of Surat, that any proceeding of
the kind was not only inconsistent with propriety, and
contrary to the habits of the house, but that any one was
exposed to personal danger who made such an offer. But
as to the resolution itself, he would at once assure hoe.
gentlemen that it was his intention, at the very earliest
period of next session, to call the attention of the house to
the terms of it, and to its effect on the practice of the bar,
for he believed that it was really imagined that the reso-
lution would apply not only to prohibit the acceptance of
a remuneration fur what was done in the house, but also
to prevent any member of the bar from giving his opinion
on any case which might result ultimately in proceedings
befere the house. It was perfec ly obvious that if the
resolution of the noble lord were to be' held to apply
to the case of a counsel at the bar who had given au
opinion in a case which might come before Parliament,
then the necessary and inevitable result we'll 1 he that
any individual who bad sustained a grievous wrong
would be deprived of the moans of consulting some
of the most eminent counsel—for they were generally
members of that house—as to such wrong, lest upon
the opinion given by an hon. and learned gentleman a re-
sort to Parliament should be found necessary. Without
going further, really this question involved such large and
in
ePl°l or thasne t o consideratioentirens
conviction t that
he would t
that evenu resolution
e to
u assure
there
thnoble lord was entirely superfluous and unnecessary.
([Tear) While. on the ono hand, he should be among the
first to stand forth to secure the dignity, and purity, and
the character of the bar from eproach or suspicion, he cer-
tainly should feel it his duty at an early period next ses-
sion to bring the whole subject under the consideration of
the house, and he was sure the members of the profession
would be perfectly contented with any decision the house
might come to.

&tr. INGHAM was glad to hear the intention expressed
by the hon. and learned gentleman, that he would have
some general inquiry on the subject next session.
The sutject then dropped.
M t TRIHONIAL CAUSES AMENDMENT ACT.
Tho SPEAKER announced that the Lor:ls dui not agree
with the disagreements of the Commons to the amendments
of their lordships to this bill.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
PENSION TO SIR JOHN INGLIS, K.C.B.

Upon the motion that the house at its rising adjourn
until Monday at half past one o'clock,
Col. NOR,TH begged to ask the President of the Board
of Conti& whether it was intended, either by her Majesty's
Government or the East India Company, to propose tLe
grant of a pension to Major-Gen. Sir J. Eardley Wilmot
Inglie, K C. 8., for his distinguished services in the defence
of theitesidency at Lucknow. The hon. and gallant mem-
ber referred to the different despatches which had been-re-
ceived from India, speaking in the highest terms of praise
of Sir John Inglis,'end of the manner in which be had per-
formed the arduous duties devolving on him in his glorious
defence of Lucknow. The three most illustrious feats of
arms of late years had been the defence of Kars, the defence
of Lucknow, and its relief by the glorious Havelock ; and
although the officers who had principally distinguished
themselves had been honoured and rewarded, the
position of General Inglis was worse now than when he
had been Lieut.-Colonel. In the same way Col. Lake had
been pecuniarily ruined by his promotion. lie therefore
hoped that their case which ho had laid before the house
would receive that consideration from her Majesty's
Government which the bravery, the intrepidity, and the
patient endurance of Gen. Inglis entitled it to.
Sir M. FARQUHAR thanked the gallant member for
the eloquent manner in which he had brought the question
before the house. Nothing could have been mnro bravo
or self-sacrificing than the conduct of Gen. Inglis in defend-
ing Lucknow in the midst of difficulties and privations,
which hal been described to him in glowing language by
his son, who hail been present during the siege, and who,
although ho had been struck down by fever, and thereby
prevented taking that active part in arms which it was his
wish to do, still he was able to appreciate what had been
done by others, and bore the most willing testimony to the
many soldierlike qualities of Gen. Inglis,

to very young offleer4 who h cl b.,en more forhinafel
ularet, than their hrothor office)Th as br^v-t. rank sometim.'

Sir W. CODRI.' GTON commended the eolsle lerd for
ferweril no particular i osta ce, and W:ti,,f opinion
that the establishstnsnt of anether class which would intro-
duce the subalterns iuto the Renee order as their superior
officers. would ba of greet ssrvice in cementing the diffe-
rent classes of of tiers. The Victoria Cross seemed to ha, •
been originally intended for the lower orders; but fa•
what reason he could not say, it had now been coufineil to
quite a different class, so thin new it was esteemed above
the Or der of the Bath. It might have its disadvantages,
however, in merrins, the unity and completeness of the
line, by inducing careers to single themselves out on per-
ticnlar occneions.
Gen. PEEL said, with regard to the motion of his bon,
friend behind him (Mr. Macartney), he could assure him
that every one of the recommendations made by the Trea-
sury, as to taking the accounts in the War Department,
had been ordered to be carried into effect. With regard to
his remarks on the War Department generally, he might
have contented himself with assuring him that so far as ru
him lay he would do his duty in connection with his once,
if his bin. friend had not referred to names of individuals
connected with that department before his tiros. Hie hon.
friend had alluded to Major Martin, paymaster at Wool-
wich, having risen from the ranks. Weil, then, he (Gen.
Peel) said so much the more honour to him. There was no
extraordinary increase in the number of temporary clerks,
and there was this advantage, they could be reduced at
once. During the last two months the increase of letters,
compared with the corresponding amount of two months
last yenr, was 14,000, cud of letters written 15,800. The
clerks were employed 14 hours a day. He could assure the
house that the War Department was a ve. we rived. As to the
remarks of his noble friend (Lord Elcho) he thought the
house ought to take no part whatever in the control and
regulation of the army, which were far better left to the or-
dinary military authorities. He did not think the com-
parison of his noble friend between a brevet major and a
post-captain at all a suitable or appropriate one. As to
the Order of the Bath, to which his noble friend adverted,
ho believed the Victoria Cross was intended as a-substitute
for the Order of the Bath, because the statutes of the
latter did not allow of a greater number than 550. He
gave no opinion as to the Vioioria Cross Order. No one
knew better its effect than the hon. en .1 pliant gentleman
opposite (General Codrington), who had addressed the
bduse. The consent of her Majesty had been obtained to
extend the Victoria Cross to such cases as that of the Sneak
Sands, It would be his pleasing ritiss to ads ise the ex-
tension of such rev arcs of valour as far as possible, for he
esule assure the house that no man had the honour or wel-
fare of the array at heart more than he had. (Cheers.)
After a few words from Sir W. FRASER,
Sir D. NORREYS wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer whether, before final determination on the
scale to be adopted in future, he would cause inquiry to
be mode, firstly, as to the expan e ; and, secondly, as tre the
correctness of the system of redUction by photography now
practised by the Ordnance Department for forming the
6-inch and 1 inch maps?
Lord STANLEY was informed, upon the authority of
those who bad the conduct of the survey, that the reduc-
tions were perfectly accurate, and that a saving of 650 per
cent. would be effected by the use of photography. He
believed that no further inquiry would be neeessa ry.
With respect to the question of the gallant officer, he
could only ray that the services of General Inglis were as
much appreciated by the Government as by the people of
this country.
RAILWAY AND CANAL LEGISLATION.
Mr. RICH rose to bring under the notice of the house
th-areport from the select committee on railway and canal
legislation.

The motion for adjournment to Monday was then agmed
;o.

The house adjourned at half-past 11 o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—JULY 30.
CIOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 3) BILL.
Lords' reasons for insisting on certain of their amendments
considered :—Motion made, and question put, "That
this house doth not insist on its disagreement to the
amendment math by the Lords in page 11, line 6 :"—The
house divided : Ayes, 9S; Noes, 53.

Adams, W. IL Gard, R. Pennant, Col. E.
Adderley, C. B. Gray, Captain Percy, J.
Arbuthnott, Gen. H. Hall, General John Philippa. J.
Raillle, 11. Hamilton, G. A. Pugh, D.
Bernard, W. Hill, Lord E. Rawii-son, Sir H.
Beach, W. Johnstone, U. B. Robertson, P.
Beceroft, G. Kell', Sir F. Roll, J.
Beresford, Rt. Hn. W. Kerrison, Sir E. Rashout, Capt. G.
Blakemore, T. Enightley, It. Sclater, George
flotlleld, B. Lefroy, Anthony Smith, Sir t'.
Brady, J. Lennox, Lord 11. G. Spooner, R.
Mrandey-Moore, J. Lopes. Sir M. Stanley, Lord
Cairns, H. Lowther, Col. H. C. Stephenson, Robert
Carnac, Sir J. R. Lyali, George Sturt, N.
Cartwright, 11. Lytton, Sir E. Sykes, Colonel
Cecil, Lord .R. Macartney, George Vansittart, G.
Cobbett, J. M. Dialing, Richard Vansittart, W.
Codrington, Gat. Mangles, R. D. Verner, Sir W.
Coke, W. Manners, Lord J. Waddington, H.
Corry, H. T. L. March, Earl of Walcott, Admiral.
Disraeli, B. Maxwell, J. Walpole. S.
Drummond, H. Miles, W. Walsh, Sir J.
Do Cane, C. Mil er, Taverner Warren, S.
Ouke, Sir J. Mills, Arthur , Whiteside, J.
Du Pre, C.l Mowbray, J. R. Whitmore, IL
East, Sir J. Mullings, J. lt. Wickham, 11.
Elcho, Lord Naas, Lord Williams, Colonel
Eltuley, Viscount Newport, Viscount Willoughby, J.
Farquhar, Sir M. Nisbet, It. P. Wynn, S r W.
Fitzgerald, W. R. S. North, Colonel Yorke, E.
Forrester, Col. Palmerston, Viscount
Franklyn, G. Patten, Col.
Frazer, Sir W. Paull, Henry
Freestun, Colonel Peel, Gen.

TELLES.%
Jolliffe, Sir W.
Taylor, Colonel