The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-04 00:00:00

the Gave: anent, in which the question of residence was
stated to be looked upon as a vital principle in the bill,
asked if it. was a general letter written by the right hon.
gentlema I.?
The UHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQEUER said
the hon. gentleman was an excellent judge of style, but
be (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not deny being
the author of the letter, and also he would say the letter ex-
pressed the feeling of his colleagues. Although he di I not feel
it was right he should be called upon to answer every word
he might write to hispolitical friends in a moment of great
political emerE,,ency. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He
would not attempt to enter into a discussion of what a
vital principle was at that particular moment. (Hear,
huar.) Ile was not ashamed of the letter, and moreover
he considered it a very good one. (Loud laughter.)

MR. OSBORNE'S " MARE'S NEST."
Mr. OSBORNE gave notice that on an early day be should
call upon the bon. member for Swansea to produce the
original memorandum which had been referred to the other

evening.
Tim PROPOSED MEETING IN HYDE
PARK.
Mr. BRIGHT said—After the questions put to the
Home Secretary at the commencement of the evening, I
was a little doubtful whether it would bo desirable for me
to bring forward the question of which I have given notice
in a more direct form before the house. On further consi-
deration, and communication with some friends, it has been
thought better that something more should be said on a
question which is exciting great interest, and, from what
has transpired to-night, some alarm—though I hope much
less than that manifested within these walls. I beg to as-
sure the right hon. gentleman that I do not rise to mako
any attack on him, or to increase the difficulty of dealing
with a question which has been and is now before him. In
looking at the question as one of legality and right, I shall
not undertake to say whether the members of the Reform
League and others, who propose to hold the meeting in
Hyde-park on Monday, are acting with strict legality or
not ; nor shall I undertake to say whether the Government
are right to forbid the meeting in the park. I should say,
from the notice which the right hon. gentleman gave last
night of a bill to define the rights of the people to admis-
sion, that neither he himself nor his colleagues are by any
means satisfied of the clearness of the law on which they
act in preventing the meeting. Well, I presume —I will as-
sume generally—that nobody has a right to close the park
on any day and occasion, but that that right is one which can
only be ex .rcised in accordance with the public interest
and for the public good. (Hear, hear.) It is quite clear that,
though technically and legally there may be right, yet
practically there is no such right. The Government cannot
or dare not attempt to close the gates against the public on
any frivolous pretence, and therefore a right to close the
park any day is of no effect, was one never intended to be
exercised, and never has been exercised. Nothing can be
more clear than this, and if the right hon. gentleman is
candid —and no one can doubt his candour—he will not
say that it is not lawful for any number of men to enter
the park ; and further, that when in they may stand shoul-
der to shoulder; and further, I am sure he will say that it
is not unlawful to speak in a loud voice in the park. (Oh,
oh, and laughter.) We shall presently have an opportunity
of hearing what his opinion is, and I think he would say it
is not illegal for those present to listen. (Laughter.) My
own impression is that the Government will act on the
opinion that none of these things are illegal. But itmay be
said, with a certain show of reason, that a great meeting
may be attended with danger to the public peace, and that
therefore it is the business of the Home-office to prohibit
the meeting. That is a doctrine which many persons hold
in this house ; but then this house is timid—one section is
very timid—l mean gentlemen opposite. The timidity is
not on the Treasury benches, but lower down at this end,
whence come those clamours as if some great danger threa-
tened us. Now if we had been bred in Paris this might be
a reasonable fear. We know that one intended banquet
there was deemed very perilous, and because it did not hap-
pen peril came. Men mightlearn wisdom from these events.
But in England great meetings have never been found pro-
ductive of breaches of the peace. (Murmurs from the Mini-
sterial side.) I defy you to found any argument from the
experience of history to show that great public meetings
have been attend -d with breaches of the peace. Well,
there was one in 1819 in Manchester, when men met to ask
this house to reform itself, and to repeal the corn laws.
But the breach of the peace was brought about by foolish
magistrates, whose conduct every one now condemns; it
was a breach of the peace on the partof the yeomanry, and
not of the people, and it has left a feeling rankling in the
minds of the people cf that great city to this day. If what
I have said on the question of legality be true, I am forced
to say the course taken by the Government was not only
unwise but au illegal cour e. It was altogether unnecessary,
and led to a disturbance ; and if the right hon. gentleman had
acted otherwise I am quite sure the meeting in June last
would have passed off as peaceably as any of the nine
hundred and ninety-nine in the thousands of great meet-
ings in the history of this ountry. Raving read the pro-
clamation, or rather notification, of the Rome Secretary
with respect to the proposed meeting on 3sLinday, the hon.
gentleman continued : I have great sympathy with the
persons who enjoy the parks. I have no means of know-
ing how many p ers.eas are likely to use it in an ordinary
way next Monday; I probebly go beyond the mark in
stating the number at 5.000. Bat suppose that 50,000 or
100,000 should hold a meeting there for a couple of hours,
I confess I do not see that there would be any grert sacri-
Bee on the part of the comparatively few who ordinarily
enjoy the park in allowing their fellow-citizens to express
their opinions on a great public question. We here are
occupied night after night on this question of a Reform
Bill—making the future history and decreeing the condi-
tion of a great empire. Why are the people, who have an
interest so great as to be debarred from an opportunity of
expressing their opinions? If they had not a strong feeling
on the subject, you would not be legislating on it ; and
surely it is a reasonable thing that they should wish to
meet to express, it may be, their sense of gratitude to Par-
liament —(laughter)—it may be to express their views on
particular points. We have had meetings all over the
bountry since the time when you threw out the bill last
year, and they will not cease until this or some mea-
sure in settlement of the question of Parliamentary Re-
form passes both Houses of Parliament and receives the
Royal assent. What takes place elsewhere ? Where do
you get the facts on which t: found your fears ? I was
in Birmingham when the whole population of the town
appeared to have turned out. There was no special con-
stables there, but the Mayor was there, and the head of
the police helped to marshal the procession at a meeting
judged to have fallen not much short, if short, of 330,000
persons. (Much laughter from the Ministerial benches.)
I will say this, at any rate, that it was a
Itenttng much larger than any which has assembled
itt London any time this session. Great meetings were
likewise held at Bradford, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leeds, and
and other towns, and if they could be held without the
*lightest breach of the peace, why should there be any ap-
peehension now ? I was very sorry to hear what was said,
that persons had been to the Rome-office to ask for the ap-
pointment of special constables. I believe this scheme has
arisen with a few lawyers. A proposal on the subject, I
bear, was handed about the courts, and I am sorry to find
that there are wigs and gowns with so little courage and
wisdom. I should say that to bring the middle classes as
constables to resist or disperse the people, or to put on
any attitude of defiance, would be one of the most unwise
things that any Herne Secretary or magistrate could do.
(Hear.) It would be to set class against class with a ven-
geance. What, then, is the duty of the Government ? I
hold the duty of the Government to be to offer no kind of
opposition to the peaceful entrance of the people into tLe
park, and when in the park to take no part whatever in
endeavouring to prevent what I believe will be the legiti-
mate and peaceful proceeding; of the day. If in Birming-
ham and Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Manchester,
you can have these great meetings, it is quite impossible
there can be that difference between the temper of the
people of the metropolis and the temper of the people of
the other great cities of the empire to make all those
meetings perfectly harmless and to make the meetings in
the metropolis one of imminent hazard arid danger. De-
pend upon it, in coming to a meeting like this—for a great
national object, for a great object connected immediately
and directly with their rights, for a great object, mea-
sures with regard to which are now under discussion
in this house—they will come there with sentiments
ennobled by the feeling which annimates them, and
you may have double reliance upon it that there will be
nothing done about which any of their countrymen need
be ashamed. 1 hear sometimes gentlemen opposite speak
of the President of the Reform League with a feeling
• - akin to contempt. (Loud Conservative cheers.) I have
gone through a good deal of that myself. (A. laugh.) I have
known hon. gentlemen opposite use language of me in pub-
lic—l say nothing of what is said in private—(a laugh)—
with regard to my political views sometimes even in this
house, but oftener when I have not been present ; yet I
find, though they have terribly abused me one year for my
dangerous views, they next year embody those views in an
Act of Parliament. (Loud Opposition cheers.) I venture
to say this of Mr. Belles that there has never been con-
nected with any political agitation in our time a more
honourable main than he is. (clear, hear.) I judge from
many years' p .reonal, and some years rather intimate,
hap:dm:ince with him. I judge from what all those who
knewi him best say of him ; I judge front the general con-
r_ le vet which ho has pursued during the last two years when
hhas been prominently before the public in connection
with agreat agitation. lie has suffered from that connec-
tion. lie has had cut off from him an honourable office. He
standsin, upon the principle which he holds; and he has now,
v, the intense s last' cetion of seeing that the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor' of the Exchequer and Lis
are gradually dragging, or it may be drawing,
invitin ,alluring, coaeing.,oceercing, but in some way or
other bringing the groat Conservative party of England
into intimate alliance with
Oppo-
sition cheers.) Now, sir, let me say of rig(Lhtouhdon
Vo
performther e iistsno dutiest ea n
gen-
tleman the Home Secretary that I believe
who ever filled his office more anxious to
with moderation and justice on all questions of the nature
of
etlof that on which I am now addressing house.the
What-
ever took place last year lam sure the right on .
man regretted the momentary turmoil as much as Igdind, or
I,s much as any of us did. I believe now that he will act

upon another and a wiser principle ; that he will believe as
I believe, that you will find on Monday that almost every
man who goes to Hyde Park will consider himself a guar-
dian of public liberty— (a laugh from the Ministerial side,
and Opposition cheers) -at the same time a protector of the
public property. (Hear, hear.) I shall be very much sur-
prised indeed if there be any harm done to anything within
the park; and I believe this, at any rate, that the character
of the English people for love of order will not be tar-
nished by the transactions of that day. (Hear, hear.) When
I look at the difficulty with which the right hon. gentle-
man has to labour through this house, with its contending
parties, with this bill which he has introduced, 1 say it
ought to be a pleasure to any man in favour of a grand
settlement of this great question to know that there are
100,000 men in the metropolis of this empire who can meet
calmly, if not to discuss, at least to consider a great ques-
tion in which they are so much interested, and to talk
upon, perhaps to aid, the attempts that are now being made
to introduce such a large portion of the people to the privi-
leges of our ancient and noble constitution. (Hear, hear.)
I say, then, it is the business of the house not to scruti-
nise too narrowly the question whether the law officers of
the Crown could discover a flaw in the right of the people
to meet in Hyde Park, but rise above that, consider the
grandeur of the question, the grandeur of the intense
interest of the people, and then consider how strong must
be the feeling with love of order also, which induces
them to come out in tens, twenties, and may be hundreds
and thousands to assist Parliament in passing a just mea-
sure. (Hear, and a laugh.) I was just going to sit down ;
but, after the laughter of hon. gentlemen opposite, I will
add one more sentence. Is there a man among you, if
them is let him get up when I sit down, who does not feel
you could not be in the position you are now with this
great bill, with the progress you are making, with the in-
terest felt, if it had not been for the assistance of these
great demonstrations of public opinion ? (Oh, oh, and
hear.) Why, sir, the thing is notorious ; and if there be
of seeing man incapableno• it, I shall not waste my time,
any
or the time of the house, in discussing it. (Hear, hear.) I
say such are the obstacles in the way of a great measure
like this that it cannot be adjusted without the aid of the
great body of the people, and I trust the Parliament of
England will regard the question in the same spirit.
(Cheers.)
Mr. NEATE moved the following resolution :—" That
her Majesty's Government, in refusing the use of Hyde
Park for the purpose of holding a political meeting, have
asserted the legal tight of the Crown, and deserve the sup-
port of this house in so doing ;" and strongly condemned
a design which, considering the house was now engaged
on a bill much more extensive than any which had yet
been before Parliament, had no sort of justification, and
could only spring from a desire to establish a permanent
agitation—a sort of Parliament in the streets. Had the
Government assented to the claims of the League, which
were clearly illegal, they would have deserved impeach-
ment.

Mr. D. BROMLEY maintained that the leaders ought
to be held responsible fox any damage done, and Mr. T.
Hughes having explained the circumstances of his con-
nexion with the Reform League as Vice-President, and
professed his readiness to take his share of all responsibi-
lity for the consequences, though he did not approve the
proposed meeting,
Mr. WALPOLE commenced by remarking that Mr.
Bright hadavoided the real question at issue,which was not
the right of public meeting, which no one disputed, but the
propriety of insisting on meeting in a forbidden place. That
the Crown had a right to permit certain things to be-done
in the parks and to prohibit others was as clear as any
point of law could be, and the Government was about to
bring in a bill, not because the right was doubtful, but to
provide a more convenient mode of enforcing it, which
now could be done by handing offenders out of the Park
as trespassers. After what had occurred, the Government,
he urged, was justified in waffling the League not to hold
their meeting in a prohibited place, and that warning they
might have accepted without discredit, but if they insisted
on going into the Park on them would fall the responsi-
bility of what might follow—a breach of the peace. The
Government would offer no provocation ; the gates would
be open, but if they entered the Park he hoped those gen-
tlemen would show more respect for the law than to insist
on holding a meeting. Mr. Walpole alluded also to the
defiant language used at the recent meeting of the League,
to which no Government could submit with a due regard
to public interest, and after again assuring the house that
there was no intention to prevent discussion on Reform,
provided it were held in a fit place, he exhorted all those
1 who had influence with the League to press them not to
persist in their illegal design.
Mr. GLADSTONE, while deprecating Mr. Neate's mo-
tion, which was an unnecessary assumption by the house
of responsibility for the acts of the Executive, assumed it
as a matter of course that both sides of the house would
join in supporting the Ministers of the Crown in the ad-
ministration of the law and the maintenance of order. No
doubt it was a nice question to determive whether the
Government should stand on the strict right of the Crown ;
but they were the proper judges, and if they decided not
to waive the right it was not the duty of individuals to
come into conflict with them. Whatever might be the
measures the Government meant to take.to uphold the law
—though he could not exactly understand their nature
1 (and this Mr. Gladstone repeated, notwithstanding Mr.
Walpole made a second explanation) —it was the duty of
the leaders of the League to acquiesce in them, and if they
disputed the legality of the power assumed by the Govern-
ment, to take steps to test it before the proper tribunal.
Mr. Gladstone concluded by an earnest entreaty to the
Leaguers not to persevere in their illegal design.
Mr. WHALLEY argued that the people had a right to
meet in the Parks, and Lord Elcho pressed for more defi-
nite information as to what the Government meant to do,
if the League insisted on holding a meeting in the Park, to
which
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
ample precautions had been taken to preserve the public
peace, and to repress disturbances, tut it was impossible to
say more precisely what they would do under circum-
stances which they could not foresee. It must depend on
what happened in the Park.
Sir G. GREY, while expressing an earnest hope that
the League would abstain from committing an act which
must put them in a wrong position, thought there was still
an obscurity hanging over the intentions of the Cl...were--
meta, which ought to be cleared up.
Mr. SELWYN insisted that Hyde-park had been se-
lected as a place of meeting for the purpose of intimida-
tion ; while Mr. P. A. Taylor argued in favour of the
legality of the determination of the League, and Mr.
Otway and Mr. Denman joined in pressing for more ex-
plicit information as to what would follow in the event of
the meeting being held, and Captain Hayter asked whe-
ther a sufficient military force had been provided to pre-
vent the people enteric; the Park in procession with bands
playing and flags flying.
Sir J. PAKINGTON declined to say more than that
sufficient provision had been made to preserve the peace,
and hinted that stops had already been taken to evade
arrangements which the Government were supposed to
have been made.
Mr. LO WE urged that it was only fair to the people to
tell them what would happen if they held their meeting,
and, quoting Mr. Walpole's language, asked whether they
would be treated as trespassers and handed out of the
Park.

No answer was given to this question, and, Mr. Neste
having withdrawn his motion, the subject droppjd•
Among other subjects discussed on the motion for going
into supply was an address for an inquiry into the diffe-
rence betwoea contagious and infectious diseases, moved
by Sir J. C. Jervoise ; the rules by which the grants for
the promotion of elementary instruction are to be distri-
buted ; the hardship of depriving Aberdeenshire of its
share in the giants for compensating the owners of cattle
compulsorily slaughtered under the Cattle Plague Orders
in Council; and the propriety of adding two professional
architects to the committee appointed to select a design for
the new Courts of Justice.
Mr. HUNT, ou behalf of the Government, intimated
that they would not object to the two architects who now
acted as assessors being added to the committee if the
Judges concurred in it.
Mr. MONCRIEFF asked for some specific information
as to the intentions of the Government relative to the
Scotch Reform Bill, and dwelt on the importance of an
early introduction of the bill, as from the circumstance that
there were no compounders in Scotland, the borough fran-
chise must either be household suffrage pure and simple, or
there must be a " hard and fast line" drawn at £4, and it
was right that this should be known at the earliest

moment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER acknow-
ledged that there had been delay, but urged in extenua-
tion the difficulties the English bill had had to encounter,
and the fact that the Government had not had the assist-
ance of a Lord-Advocate in Parliament. But the bill was
printed, and he hoped to introduce it on Thursday. It was
founded on the same principles as the English bill, the
borough franchise was identical—household suffrage with
personal payment of rates—and it would provide a fair
and ample increase of the Scotch representation.
The Bankruptcy Bill was committed pro forma.
Mr. WALPOLE brought in his bill for better securing
the use of the Royal parks for the recreation of the people,
and explained that it did not alter the law, but merely pro-
vided better means of enforcing it. It provided that no
public meeting should be held iu the metropolitan parks
without the Queen's consent, and subjected those conven-
ing or taking part in such meetings to a penalty of £lO, or
two months' imprisonment, on conviction before a police

magistrate.
Several orders. of, flit) tiay wore forwarded a stage, and
[he hous3 adjourned at five minutes past ono o'clock.

A MAHOMEDAN CALLED TO THE ENGLISH BAR.—
Last Tuesday evening there was acall to the Bar at the Inns
of Court. At the Middle Temple one of the students called
is a Mahomedan—Budroodeen Tyabjo3. He is the first
person of that persuasion who has been called to the Eng-
lish Bar. The oaths of allegiance, Sce., were administered
to him in the usual terms, but he was sworn on the Koran.
We understand he intends to practise at the Bar in Bom-
bay. In that province there are Vakeals who are llussul-
, maw, but Budroodeen Tyabiao will ba first member of
the Bar in India who is a disciple of the Prophet,