The Sun.
London, England, 1867-03-08 00:00:00

THE FENIAN OUTBREAK.

Mr. C. FORTESCUE asked the right hon. gentleman
the Secretary for the Home Department whether he could
give the house any further information relative to the un-
fortunate state of affairs in Ireland, in addition to that
mentioned in the house yesterday by the Secretary for
Ireland.

Mr. WALPOLE said some additional telegrams had
been received to-day, but they merely gave some more
details relative to the information already made known,
and therefore they were not of any particular importance.
(Hear, hear.) There was no further information hi
the possession of the Government than that which already
had been published in the newspapers, in some of which
he regretted to say the facts had been very highly
coloured. The latest telegram that had been received
was as follows :

" 11.40 a.rn., Thursday. Railway open to Cork. Thir-
teen prisoners brought from Limerick and Kilmaliock.
Three persons shot. No event,of importance reported to-
day. Dublin, Cork, Limerick, and Waterford all quiet."
(Hear, hear.)
SUPPLY.—THE ARMY ESTIMATES.

The house then went into committee of Supply.
General PEEL, who occupied a seat on the Treasury
bench, rose, and was received with cheers from both sides
of the house. He said—Mr. Dodson, as it is a matter of
public convenience that the number of men required for
the army should be voted as speedily as possible, I shall,
before sitting down, after explaining the causes of the
difference between the estimates for the present and next
year, move the vote to that effect. Although the esti-
mates, which are now under consideration, exceed the
estimates for the present year by no less a sum than
£112,000, although they exceed the actual expenditure of
the year 1865-66 by £637,467, and although my favourite
estimate of £lOO per man falls far short of what is required
to cover the military expenditure during the course of the
next year, for that is raised to .£lO5 ; still I trust, if the
house will grant me their attention, I shall be able to
show that that paragraph in the Speech from the Throne
which stated that the estimates were framed a ith due
attention to economy and with due regard to the public
service was perfectly correct—(Wear, hear)—and that the
increase in the estimates have arisen from circumstances
over which I had no control. I was naturally anxious to
reduce the estimates for the forthcoming year as much as
possible, in order to meet the extra expenditure which the
house will be called upon to sanction in the supplementary
vete for the purpose of carrying out tho recommendations
of the Royal Commission in respect of the appointment of
an army of reserve. But I venture to say that no person
was ever called upon, in time of peace, without any inti-
mation of increasing the number of men, to frame estimates
under such disadvantageous circumstances as I was. In
the first place it was necessary to provide for leap-year.
(Laughter.) That is a perfectly unavoidable circumstance
and has added an increase to the estimates of no less a
sum than £24,700. 1 then found that my predecessor
had granted a warrant, which had been approved of
by the Treasury, to increase the pay of the medi-
cal c,fficers of the army. I highly approve of that
warrant, but it add to the estimates o, sum of X18:000.

I also found that the late Government had come to an

arrangement to take over the Straits Settlements. Now
that is a new feature altogether in the estimates. It is per-
fectly true that the Straits Settlements pay into the Trea-
sury a sum equivalent to £60,000, but the expense of the
transfer falls for the first time upon the army estimates of
the present year. There was, further, another alteration
made as regards Ceylon and parts of the Australian colo-
nies, and that, combined with the arrangements in regard
to the Straits Settlement, has added £128,000 to the esti-
mates. There then comes an increase on account of the
price of provisions and forage, which adds £92,000 ; and
after that comes an item which I view with great alarm,
not so much on account of its magnitude as of its bearing
on the estimates—l allude to the additional sum required
to provide for the recruitment of the army during the next
year. Next year there will be no less than 21,300 men
entitled to their discharge at the expiration of their ten
3 ears' service, which, in addition to the common average
requirements of the army on account of deaths, dest.rtion,
and sickness, renders it necessary to provide for no less
than 32,600 recruits during the course of the next financial
year, against 18,100 during the course of the present year.
It is true that a great many of them will re-enlist, but that
will make no difference. They are entitled, if they re-en-
list, to their bounty and free kit, and it therefore makes
exactly the same thing whether they re-enlist or not. The
additional charge on that head is £69,000. 'There is an-
other charge, on account of clothing, of £79,100, and there
is an additional charge of £20,000 on account of furlough
pay. That is one of those items which is supposed to be
covered by the capitation rate, in accordauee with the ar-
rangement entered into with the Indian Government in
1860 ; but what the principle of that arrangement was I
could never understand. The first year the sum was
£30,000, but rose t0£130,000, and I am obliged to take this
year £150,000. The absolute expenditure during the last
year was no less than £162,000. That proves
that there must be some fallacy in this arange-
ment. This is one of the sums that ought to
be covered by the capitation. There is another
increase in the estimates. The sum provided for in the
army estimates on account of the navy is £675,000, and
the amount provided in the navy estimates for the army is
£403,000 ; so that the army is a loser to the extent of
£272,000. I think I have stated sufficient to show the
causes of the increase this year over the last ; but I am
afraid when the accounts come in it will be found there
is a real excess. We have now an opportunity for the first
time of comparing the estimates of the coming year with
the expenditure of the past. 1 have always said it was the
most fallacious thing possible to compare estimates with
estimates; but this year we can compare this year's esti-
mates with the absolute expenditure of 1865-6. The num
ber of men is almost precisely thesame, and yet the amount
I ask for on account of the first sevea votes is £402,000
more than was asked for last year. In the year 1865-6 the
total number of men provided for was 143,773. The money
taken on account of these men was £8,141,702, being at
the rate of £5O 12s. per man. The absolute number borne
during the year fell short by nearly 2,000 men, being
141,874, and the amount spent was £8,440,471, or £303,000
more than the estimate, so that the absolute cost was £59
9s. per man. In the estimates of the present year the
number provided for is 139,300, and the amount taken
£10,864,500, which is at the rate of £56 9s. per man.
Colonel SYKES—lncluding the first seven votes ?

General PEEL—Yes. So far, however, from there being
any reason to suppose that less money will be required
this year than. before, up to the end of the first nine
months we were absolutely in excess to the number of 474
men, instead of being nearly 2,ooomen below the establish-
ment. A supplementary estimate has been prepared for
that excess, but I beg to declare I am not responsible for
it. During the first three months before the reliefs went
out to India there was an excess of 2,500 men, but the
numbers at the end of the year will probably correspond.
The number of men I am about to ask is 139,163, and the
cost £8,267,300, beingan average of £s9Bs. per man, which
almost corresponds with the expenditureof 1865-6. I think
I have shown quite sufficient to account for the apparent
excess of the estimates of the year, and I will now pro-
ceed to account for an absolute excess amounting to
£637,000. The first seven votes are entirely dependent
upon the number of men. The only other two votes in
which any great reduction can be made are votes 12 and
13, relating to manufacturing and store departments. The
excess in the proposed expenditure for next year of
£611,793 will be for the supply of guns, and there will also
be a gratifying increase in the vote for volunteers. The
estimates for 1865-6 amounted to £14,348,447, au excess of
expenditure of £358,705. The estimate for the ensuing
year amounts to £14,707,212, or very nearly the same as
for the current year but for the excess in these two votes.
If I can show that the number of men is no more than the
service requires, it will not be necessary to defend the first
seven votes. The great cause of the increase is the neces-
sity of adding 20 men to each of the depots of the Indian
regiments This is a change to be covered by the capita-
tion. It was originally proposed that these depots should
consist of only 100 'nen, but that was not found to be sutli-
cient for a regiment 900 strong in India, and that is oae
principal reason why troops have been sent out so young.
Besides, a great number of the men are only retained at the
depots for one year or one year and a half, because the
Indian Government naturally did not wish to bear the ex-
peuse of sending men home whose service would so soon
• expire. In many instances 50 out of the 100 men at the
depot ere only awaiting their discharge. The cost of the
addition will fall on the Indian Government, and the
change may be almost said to be a reduction in the army.
We propose also to do what the hon. and gallant member
for Lichfield (Major Anson) recommended, namely, to sup-
ply a regiment of native Indian troops to do duty at Hong
Kong instead of European troops. (Hear, hear.) This
will be a reduction of 676 European soldiers. Then there
are to be 100 men added to the staff corps. That is no in-
crease whatever, for it is only carrying out what has long
been regarded as a groat boon to the soldier, namely, in-
stead of employing civilians as labourers, men of good
character are allowed to leave their regiments to perform
certain work, which will give them an increase to their
pay. 1 believe the plan is working well, and that it islikely
to be extended. The increase in the army thus amounts to
1,724 men ; but if I could suggest a decrease I would not
ask even for that. I propose to make a reduction in
certain British establishments to 600 men. I know there
are military men who object to this. Our intention is, when
regiments return from foreign service to keep them for the
first year at 600, and to raise them gradually to 680, the
number required when they go on colonial service. I have
been obliged to raise the establishment of the Indian regi-
ments to their full strength, for the Indian Government
have complained that those regiments had not been kept
up to their quota of 910 men. I have, therefore, been
obliged to make an increase of 1,724 men; but 1 have re-
duced other regiments to the same extent. I turn to votes
12 and 13, which relate to manufactures and warlike stores.
The number of guns which we propose to make at the
Royal gun factory is 426 rifle guns, namely, 12 of the
largest size, '23 tons; 41 of 12 tons, 31 of 9 tons, 12 of 7
toes, 179 of 61 tons, 76 64-pounders, 43 9-pounders, 14 7-
pounders, and 18 6-pounders. This is almost the first year
. .

in which any provision hss been made in the annual esti-
mates for supplying guns for the fortifications. Tha esti-
mated sum required for arming those fortifications amounted
to £1,800,000, including ammunition. That agreement was
entered into in 1860; but until the present estimates no
provision was made for carrying it into effect. (Hear, hear.)
It is most fortunate that it was so. (Cheers.) If we had
taken votes for the purpose in 1860, wo should have guns
of a very inferior pattern, and the cost would have been
trebled, for three years ago a 23 ton gun would have cost
£3,500, whereas it can now be made fur £l,BOO. The re-
sult of the delay, therefore, has been a great saving to the
country. (Hear, hear.) But still you cannot conceal from
yourselves that the work will have to be done ; and if the
present estimates were nut so unnaturally high this year,
I should have asked for a larger vote for this purpose. I
now come to a matter of great interest to the house—the
question of small arms. I know that there have been a
great many reports as to the success of the Snider con-
version ; and I think it better, therefore, to begin at the
beginning. So long back as 1864 it was decided by a
committee that the whole British army should be armed
with breech-loaders. Soon after that another com-
mittee decided that, instead of the common Enfield,
our muskets should be rifled on the Lancaster principle.
The consequence has been that you have not had a single
now rifle made for the last three years. It was decided by
my noble predecessor that the Enfield should be converted
into breech-loaders. The experiments had been going on
for two years, and just before I came into office the pattern

was decided upon as to the piece and the ammunition.

The great events which took place on the Continent in the
interim made me resolve when coming into office to carry
out what had been decided upon, namely, to arm the whole
British army with breech-loaders as soon as possible. The
house was good enough to grant me a supplemental esti-
mate to convert 200,000 Enflelds into breech-loaders, but
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer remarked that I was
too precipitate. The fact was, that the entire number con-
verted when I came into office was only 12, and those had
been converted by hand and not by machinery. There is
a great deal of difference between experiments carried on
by hand labour under the most favourable circumstances
and those performed by machinery upon a large scale. My
intention, therefore, was that as soon as a sufficient quan-
tity of converted rifles could be procured to submit them
to the only real trial, namely, to furnish them to the troops.
(Hear.) But unfortunately there came from the Governor
of Canada a demand for an instant supply of breech-loaders
stating that such was the moral effect upon men when
coming in contact with troops armed with breech-loaders,
that ho called upon us not only to supply the British army
in Canada, but also the volunteers. At the time this was
a perfect impossibility, for we did not profess to deliver the
converted rifles before the middle of October. So deter-
mined was I to prevent British troops armed only with
muzzle-loaders from being brought into collision with
troops armed with breech-loaders that 1 sent an order to
America for 34,000 at apiece ; and we worked at the
gun factory day and night, and I am sorry to say some-
times on Sundays, in order to send out the converted
Sniders before the navigation closed to every British sol-
dier in Canada. (Hear, hear.) Then there came sudden
demands from the Dublin garrison. In the meantime I
sent eixty guts to ilythe for trial Shortly afterwards

the head of the Admiralty came to me Yn d said he was

sorry to inform me that the ammunition when made up
emitted a slight blaze of gas, which threw up the breech-
loading apparatus. The results of the experiments did not

show that we had attained any more accuracy of aim in the
breech-loaders over the muzzle-loaders, the gain being in

he rapidity of loading and firing ; hut there is not the

slightest doubt that the converted Enfield rifle is as good,

if not a better, weapon than any other that could be pro-
cured at present. No later than yesterday a letter from
Lord Strathnairn, than whom there is no better judge,
spoke in the strongest terms of the efficiency of these arms
in the rapidity and unremitted nature of the fire. So far,
then, as the efficiency of the arm is concerned, the change

has gone in the right direction, and will go on until the
whole British army is supplied with the converted rifle. It
is, therefore, necessary to make provision in the estimates

to cover £350,000. At that point we must stop. If we were
to convert those returned into store we should have to pay
an additional price for making them serviceable ; and it
will be far better to use up the common Enfield rifle until
we have to begin the making of a new weapon. As soon as
a new pattern is decided on it will be time to begin anew
and go on gradually ; and we must make up our ininds that
we must provide new weapons at soon as that point is de-
cided. This is the cause of the large sum asked for in the
estimates. The other votes hardly require any explana-
tion. There is a considerable increase under the head mis-
cellaneous, as in the items of £13,000 for a vessel at Hong
Kong, and £5,000 is contributed to Gibraltar, which are
all necessary for the efficiency of the service. In fulfilment
of the promise made it is now necessary to explain what it
is proposed to do in carrying out the recommendations in
the report of the Royal Commissioners on recruiting for the
army. The subject of that commission, as the house will
recollect, was mentioned when the estimates were
brought forward on the sth of March last year. The
necessity for it arose from the great difficulty expe-
rienced in securing recruits for the army. In point of
fact, it was a question whether the British army was
to be reduced to the strength of our recruiting power, or
the recruiting power to be extended to meet our necessi-
ties. Are we, in short, for the military service of India to
have recourse to native instead of British troops ? The
first recommendation made by the commissioners is with
respect to the organisation of the recruiting service. The
Adjutant-General had so much business of other kinds to
do that it was recommended to appoint an inspector of
recruits, and the Government are acting on the recommen-
dation, and intend to appoint an officer. It is not now
necessary to mention the other changes contemplated in
this direction until that officer in the experience of his
duties is able to point out what is necessary. It will be
gratifying to those who were members of that Royal com-
mission to hear that the beneficial effect of such a com-
mission having been appointed was at once felt. It was
in October of last year that the commissioners began their
labuors, and from that moment the recruiting has im-
proved. The average number of recruits raised in the
five years ending December, 1865, was 12,449. In the
twelve months ending December, 1866, we raised 15,277 ;
and for the ten months ending in January, 1867, the num-
ber is 13,193; and if we go on at the same rate we shall
raise this year 16,119. There is every reason to expect
that the experiment will lead to an increase in the num-
ber of men required. The commissioners make a recom-
mendation that men should be enlisted for general ser-
vice instead of for a particular regiment, as at present.
If the recruit has no wish to join any particular regiment
ke will bo available for general service anywhere. (Hear.)
This will be of great value in providing for the supply of
troops to India, and in recruiting for general service a depot
will be formed for these recruits. The recommendation
on the system of medical examination is now under con-
sideration, and will be carried out. To carry out the re-
commendation for the establishment of a military train-
ing school would involve an average cost of £3O a head per
year, and it is not at present proposed to adopt it. The
Government, however, have addpted the recommendation
that the cost of certain " necessaries" now borne by the
soldier himself should be furnished by the country. An
estimate was immediately called for, and £BO,OOO a year
is the sum required. There is another recommendation
of the commissioners, that the British soldier at home
should be allowed an additional quarter of a pound of meat
a day. But if this was to be of any good to the soldier at
home it ought to be extended to the soldier abroad ; for it is
impossible to see on what principle a distinction can be
made. (Hear, hear.) It is perfectly true that the soldier
abroad has au allowance of one pound, only equal pro-
bably to the three-quarters at home ; but if the home
soldier is to have the increase recommended to a pound
it would be necessary in fairness to raise the allowance on
foreign service to a pound and a quarter. In the evidence
of the Commissary-General before the commission, that
officer said that the increase in the rations proposed .by
the commissioners would be the least effective mode of
attracting men to tho service, and that au increase of
twopence a day in the soldier's pay would be considered
a greater inducement. It was, therefore, decided, in-
stead of acting on this part of the report in the recona-
mondatiou of an addition to the allowance, to propose au
addition of twopence a day in the pay of the soldier.
(Hear, hear.) It will be considered a greater boon
by many—by the married soldier and by those
having a disposition to save—and happily that utini-
ber is now decidedly on the increase in the army--than
any increase of meat allowance. There is another recom-
mendation on a point but little known. The British
troops serving in China receive an addition of twopence
a day to bring their pay up to that of the native troops ;
and it was decided after the war not to withdraw it, but
to continue it to the regiments then quartered there. But
there remained the invidious distinction that an extra
allowance was to be made to other regiments coming
later. That would be avoided by adopting the other re-
commendation of a general increase of twopence a day to
the British soldier. It would bo a boon to the soldier
and an advantage to the public, inasmuch as this addi-
tion to the pay would be more likely to attract recruits
to the army. On this point there is hardly a difference
of opinion amongst military men. Though involving a
large addition to the estimates, the sum of £326,000
would be required for this purpose. Therefore, on
coming to the other recommendation to give twopence
a day in addition to those re-engaging in the service,
it was thought that one penny would be sufficient ;
that is to say, the long-service man will receive au addi-
tion of threepence a day. The recommendation as to re-
cruits for the militia will involve an extra charge. It is
proposed to carry out the recommendation that there should
bo no difference in the periods of service in the different
arms, but that the same terns should prevail for the artil-
lery, cavalry, and infantry - namely, twelve years for the
first term; and secondly, a re-engagement for nine years.
As regards the rate of pension, many attach more import-
ance to that than an addition to the pay as a means of
attraction to the service ; but the Government incline to
the opinion that the addition of the twopence proposed will
have greater weight than if put on the pension.
Major ANSON—WiII the two or three pence be carried
to pensions ?
General PEEL—No. Then it is intended to adopt the
recommendation as to soldiers exercising trades, and that
work be done as much as possible by the troops them-
selves. The men will be allowed to repair barrack
damages themselves ; the payment of which has always
been a source of complaint. The sums that are provided
for in the supplementary estimates, as far as the army are
concerned, will produce this great advantage, that every
shilling goes into the pocket of the soldier. (Hear, hear.)
The question as to bounty to volunteers is one for the
Indian Government to deal with. Coming now to the ques-
tion of the reserve force, the commissioners point oat the
advantage that the militia should be raised to the full
force—that is, of 120,000 men. To that we do not here-
after propose to add a single man. Then the question is,
how are you to manage an army of reserve, by which,
should war become imminent, you would be able to add
to the regular army ? There are wars of two descriptions
in which England may be engaged. She may be engaged
in war with Powers from which there is no fear of inva-
sion. Such have been the wars within my recollection in
America, and in the Crimea. And look what you were
obliged to do in the Crimean war. You were obliged to
apply to the militia for all the men they could spare, and
you know with what result. Now we want reserves
of two descriptions. We want men who at a moment's
notice would be ready to fill up the ranks in the regular
service ; but, as we propose to reduce the establishment
at home to 600 squadrons, you would not require more offi-
cer; you would only require a number of men. You want
a first and second reserve ; the first to serve abroad ; the
second to consist of men whose service, like that of the
militia and the volunteers, should not extend beyond this
country. How are we to raise this army of reserve ? We
have been trying for the last six years. It has been sug-
gested that you should make the reserve a portion of the
regular army, and that a man, after serving a number Of
years in the line, should fall into the reserve. Ido not
think that would answer. After a man bad been iu the
army and then came to the reserve, if he had no employ-
ment you would never know where to find him. Therefore
we propose that, instead of making the reserve a portion of
the regular service, it should be a substitution for that ser-
vice. We would allow men who can find employment to go
into the reserve, not as a matter of right, but as a matter
of favour, otherwise regiments would be completely broken
up. Well, then, I would propose that the reserve should be
attached to the militia. I should be sorry to see another
army raised up between the militia and the regular army—
(bear, hear)—but I have the strongest possible desire to
bring the militia up towards the regular army.
Capt. VIVIAN—After how many years' service?
Gen. PEEL—A man who has completed two-thirds of
his first engagement in the line, and has served five years
abroad, will be allowed to commute the rest of his service
by entering the reserve, so that ho would bo ready to give
his aid in case of war, and he could go back to the reserve
again the instant that war was over. I would wish these
men to bo enrolled as militia, and to be subject to no other
than militia duties, except when called on to perform mili-
tary service. That would be the first reserve. From the
second reserve I would require two years' service for every
one going towards their pension, because they would not
be required to leave the country. To any one who wished to
return to the regular army I would give the opportunity.
The regiments coming home Wits year are 2,1.65 is mese