The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-16 00:00:00

Their plan was a council of eight, holding office for eight
years. The plan of this Government was totally different,
on a different duty ; the number was increased, they
were to be partly nominated and partly elected, with
the principle of representation introduced. In the first
bill of the present Government the term of office was
reduced to six years, but they were now to hold during
good behaviour, which was the same as for life. The idea
of representation had been entirely abandoned, but the
election was retained. The noble earl had rightly stated
that the opinion of the house had been strongly expressed
on this point. He, for one, would not offer any
opposition as to the number; he very much regretted
the change. (Hear.) He would leave economy entirely
out of the question, but still he could not see why double
the salary should be paid for the same work as was now
performed by the Court of Directors. The number was
in itself objectionable. He would appeal to those of their
ordebips who had been members of the Cabinet whe-
ther, although the members were much occupied with
their Parliamentary and departmental duties, the num-
ber at which Cabinets had now arrived-15 or 16—did
not to a certain degree encourage conversation, and tend
to place the knowledge and conduct of important busi-
ness in the hands of fewer members than if the Cabinet
consisted of &smaller number? There was one element
which ought not to be left out of consideration, that was
the likelihood cf being bored. (A laugh.) There was one
advanta-te in the Cabinet, viz., that if a man became a bore
be could be got rid of, but in the Council he could not. He
bad some experience of Indian servants ; they had not
the advantage which public men had in this country, but
bad passed their lives in very different circumstances,
exercising the functions of pro-consuls, and he feared
very muoh that in the council they might be tempted to
expend their superfluous energy in writirg tong minutes,
and however able and intelligent, conduct business in
such a way as that the secretary might find it too tire-
some to attend their meetings, and eventually reduce
their functions to a mere sham. With regard to the
question of patronage, one great argument against the
bill of the late Government was, that their chief desire
was to increase their own patronage. How did the case
really stand ! With regard to all the home patronage,
their bill provided that the Minister could not exercise
it without the concurrence of ha;f the council. The first
bill of the Government allowed that to stand as to pro-
motion, bat by this bill all appointments and promotions
were vested in the Secretary of State alone. He did not
say that this was wrong. Another change had been
wade in the bill, with regard to the nomination of the
council in India. It was proposed in the bill of the late
Government that the nomination of the members should
be left to the Governor-General; but it was now pro•
posed to give the nomination to the secretary in council.
It appeared to him that the disadvantages cf giving the
nominatiob to the Governor-General were as nothing
compared-to the disadvantages of bringing the nomina•
tions over here, where they would necessarily give place
to canvassing. (Hear, hear.) He also regretted the
change which had been made with respect to the admis-
sion of the civil servants. With regard to the duties and
procedure of the council, he had great difficulty in fol-
lowing the arrangements which had been made. The
Secretary of State was invested with the powers now
exercised by the President of the Board of Control and
the Court of Directors, and the next clause enabled him
to divide the council into committees, and to allot to
those committees different parts of the business. He
should like to know whether this clause transferred the
powers of the council to these committees, or whether
they were merely to adjust the matters referred to them
and then back to the council. This distinction ought to
have been made manifest in the bill. Again, the Seere•
tary of State was empowered to act independently of
the council in matters of urgency ; but the Secretary of
State was the sole judge of urgency, although it was
sometimes very difficult to say what was urgent and what
was not. He agreed in the propriety of vesting in the
Secretary of State the powers of the secret committee.
With regard to the expenditure, the late Government in
their bill imposed some restrictions, but her Majesty's
Government omitted those restrictions altogether. The
noble earl shook his head, but he would find that he was
right. In the bill, however, as it stood, a change had
been made, for not only was a restriction imposed, but it
was made far more stringent than in the bill of the late
Government, inasmuch as the bill provided that no
expenditure could be incurred without the consent of
a majority of the council. That constituted the coun-
cil a House of Commons for the affairs of India, for
they could stop the supplies. (Hear, hear.) It appeared
to him that this clause rendered nugatory that ether
clause which gave the Secretary of State the power of
initiation in cases of emergency, because some appro-
priation of revenue must almost necessarily accompany
every exercise of that power. (Hear.) Some of the
obj,ctions which had been urged might turn out in prac-
tice to be of little weight, whilst others that were not
now urged might strongly and prominently appear. Bat
the whole thing was but an experiment, and ought to be
very much regarded in that light, He trusted there
was nothing in his remarks which showed a factious tone
—(hear, bear, from the ministerial bench)—and on the
other hand he was sure that the Government would
meet in a fair and proper spirit any reasonable proposi-
tion which they (the opposition) could offer. He thought
that a limit, say of five years, should be given to the du-
ration of the act. He knew the noble earl would say
that it would be inconsistent to appoint a council fur life,
and then to limit the operation of the act to five years ;
but this bill contained a clause relative to the di-missal
of any member of the council with loss of salary or pen-
sion, which showed that this was a provisional form of
government. If any amendment of that kind was intro-
duced, it should riot necessarily be coueidered as leading
to a revision of the whole government of India, but to
particular portions of it. There was only one other
point to which he would refer—he alluded to the provi-
sion in the 65th clause respecting the employment of
the Indian army out of India, which had been suggested
by Mr. Gladstone and adopted by her Majesty's Go-
vernment. He confessed he felt surprised, both at the
suggestion and at its adoption, because he doubted if it
was not altogether unconstitutional, as well as unwise,
to declare that the executive should not have the power
of employing the Indian army out of India, except
to repel an actual invasion of the country, or on
some urgent necessity. This reminded him of Mr.
Pitt's famous order respecting the volunteers, which
bad been so much ridiculed, for it was equivalent to say-
ing, " Come forward, my lads, here is a fine opportunity
of serving your country with perfect impunity." (Laugh-
ter.) With regard to the urgent necessity, he was of
opinion that no military operations were justifiable ex-
cept in case of emergency and urgency. It they were to
have an act of Parliament to declare war, and to justify
the commencement of military operations, they would
probably have an act of Parliament to declare peace,
and in this way the important prerogative of the sove-
reign would be taken out of the hands of the Crown.
(Hear.) The noble earl signified that he would intro-
duce an amendment he the purpose of removing the
constitutional objection, but unless the noble earl was
prepared to modify the clause to a greater extent than
that he shonld feel it to be his duty to move the rejec-
tion of the clause altogether. These were the objections
be felt to the measure. He hoped the result, at all
event., would be to pass such a bill for -Indite as would
be not only for the advantage of this country, but for the
benefit of their fellow-subjects in India. (Hear, hear.)
The E irl of ELLENBOROUGH said that his noble
friend expressed a regret that it hail not fallen to his
lot as a Minister of the Crown to ask their lordships to
agree to a measure for the government of India. But
he could not have asked their lordships to agree to
any measure in which a portion of the Council of the
Minister of India was not elec'oed by popular election.
Neither could he a.k their lordships to agree to any pro-
position in favour of a o impetitive examination for the
engineers and artillery of the Indian army, which
were two of the noblest corps connected with any
military service, and whose recent deeds only added
to a reputation which was already diffused throughout
the world. (Hear, hear.) Tha officers of these services
were already chosen by competitive examination from
the young gentlemen educated at Addiscombe. It might
be possible, and even desirable, to erect another estab-
lishment or to extend Addiscombe, but there was this
great advantage connected with the present system,
that they were not exposed to the risk of having persons
forced upon them who were merely crammed for a special
examination, whilst they were sure of having persons
who had received a really solid education in a military
point of view. When he looked at the present moment
to the names of those men who illustrated their arms in
India—to Sir John Lawrence, to Sir Archdale Wilson,
to Eyre, to Tombs, and to others who had been brought
up and educated under the present system—to propose
now to alter that system which had produced men or
such distinction seemed to him to be a most unnecessary
and gratuitous act, and a truckling to a temporary feel-
ing which existed elsewhere which he could have hardly
supposed it possible any Government could have acceded
to. (Hear, hear.) The bill:now before their lordships
differed in principle from both the bills which had pre•
ceded, and he considered it to be the bill of the House
of Commons rather than the bill of the Government.
(Hear.) The House of Commons was determined to
pass this year a bill for India, and they bad certain ob-
jects in view. They had the object of putting an end to
the East India Company, of putting au end to the
double government, of having one sole responsible
officer who was to be entrusted with the government of
India. They were desirous also—and he wished they
had oenfined themselves to this—of substituting the
name of tbe Queen for that of the East Indite Company
in the government of India. They put an end altogether
to the Court of Proprietors at:d the Court of Proprietors,
be must say, justly deserved that punishment, for they
bad not acted under a sense cf moral responsibility in
the execution of their duties. (Hear) He saw himself
that, on two occasions, when the Court of Proprietors
had met to discuss this very measure which was
intended to extinguish themselves, the court was counted
out, there being only seven persons present. (Hear,
bear.) That was an abdication on their part, and they
had no right to ask others to defend them when they
showed such lake-warmness in defending themselves.
(Hear.) But they always looked to the Court of Direc-
tors as being the East India Company, and their con-
nexion with the government of India was not only not
put an end to but was perpetuated under this bill. (Hear,
hear.) At present the Court of Proprietors elected 12
out of the 18 directors, but under this bill the Court of
Directors were empowered to elect seven members of the
new council from their own body, and the government,
in the exercise of their responsibility, must name at least
on the part of the Crown, three of the other members of
that court, so that ten at least, in the first instance of
the new council, would be members rf.the present court.
it was said that one-half of the future nominations should
exi-t in the Crown, and the other half in the council. If
the first person who died was a nominee of the Crown,
the Crown gained nethive, and if the next member who)
died was also a Dominee of the Crown, the council having