The Sun.
London, England, 1867-03-22 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EYEMNG, MARCH 22, 1867.

other officers of the same rank and standing have higher
claims. Lord Hardwicke, an old and distinguished ad-
miral, and a former colleague of the right hon. baronet,
had such a claim to consideration. (Oh.) I find that
Lieut. Wood did not serve his time as a flag-lieutenant,
and, therefore, he was promoted contrary to the re-
gulations, but on the merits of the distinguished nobleman
whose son he was. (Laughter.) He (Sir John Hay) could
bear testimony to the merits of both Lieutenants Wood
and Yorke, who were midshipmen of his. When the
papers are laid on the table it will bo seen that the right
hon. baronet's promotion was perfectly fair and reasonable.
Mr. GLADSTONE—This question has assumed an
aspect of considerable gravity. (Hear, hear.) The bon.
gentleman (Mr. Tracey) impugned the conduct of the late
First Lord of the Admiralty with respect to a particular
promotion, and he defends himself by stating that the
course he pursued is parallel to that of the former First
Lord, connected with the previous Administration. The
hon. member for Honiton (Mr. Cochrane) expresses the
opinion that my hon. friend (Mr. Tracey) has taken up
this question only as a matter of political partisanship.
My hon. and gallant friend who has just sat down (Sir J.
Hay) made a speech which was satisfactory in that part
where be said the information asked for would not be
withheld, but a speech which 1 cannot pass over, because
in a part of it he laid down a principle of promotion in the
navy to which it would be a most serious matter for this
house to consent. (Hear, hear.) If heard in silence, it
might imply that the house accepted the statement that
the sons of gentlemen of distinction might on that ground,
without offence, be carried over the heads of their seniors
in service and equals in merit. (Hear, hear.) That ap-
pears to be a statement exceedingly grave in its character.
(Hear, hear.) After hearing the speech of the member for
the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), 1 think it would be wise
to follow the suggestion of the member for Pontefract
(Mr. Childers)—(No, no)—because the effect of producing
the papers would be that the attention of the whole house
would be drawn to the subject. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The right hon. gentleman seems
to be under the impression that I admitted the promotion
of Lieutenant Yorke to be an objectionable promotion,
and that I defended it on the ground that the Duke of
Somerset had made similar promotions. What I intended
to say was, that I believed the promotion of Lieut. Yorke
to be quite consistent with the interests of the naval ser-
vice, but that that promotion had been made the subject
for Parliamentary attack, while other still stronger cases
of the Duke of Somerset's had been left unnoticed. (Hear.)
Serjeant GASELEE protested against the doctrine that
an officer is to be promoted because he happens to be the
son of a peer. (Cries of " Divide.")
Mr. TRACEY asked for leave to withdraw his motion,
on the ground that the papers may give additional evi-
dence, and gave notice he would again call the attention
of the House to the subject.

The motion was then withdrawn.
NAVAL ENGINEERS.

Sir E. DERING called attention to the position of naval
engineer; and complained of the distinction drawn to their
disadvantage between them and all other officers in the
navy. Au engineer, he said, has to serve fourteen years
before he can become chief engineer ; but for that long
period he is allowed to count only four years. The result
is that he cannot get to the top of the list until he is 56
years of age, and he must then retire at 60. That is un
just, and they should therefore, like the assistant-surgeons,
be allowed to count the whole of the time which they have
served. With respect to pay,the hon. baronet recommended
that the increase, which now took place at intervals of five
years, should be extended proportionably over each year,
and that the inspectors of machinery should be allowed
half-pay ; and, in conclusion, he asked why the names of
the naval engineers were not inserted in the Navy List?
Lord 11. LENNOX replied that the question of half-
pay to inspectors of machinery has bean under the con-
sideration of the board, but that no decision has yet been
come to upon it. With respect to engineers being allowed
to count, their full time, they differ in this respect from
officers of a like grade—assistant-surgeon, chaplain, and
naval instructor—that they are educated at the expense
of the State, and there is, therefore, no idea of claim being
allowed. For the rest, they obtain the rank of commander
after 15 years' service, and the names of those in the upper
grades appear in the Navy List.
ROMAN CATHOLICS IN THE NAVY.

Mr. O'REILLY called attention to the provision for the
spiritual wants of Roman Catholics in the royal navy, and
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how far the recom-
mendations approved of by Sir J. Pakingion in his letter to
Lord Derby, dated 1859, have been carried out ? In bring-
ing the subject before the house the hon. gentleman stated
that of the total vote of £39,500 for chaplains in the navy
only £540, or less than 3 per cent., is allotted to Roman
Catholics, although the number of men of that persuasion
in the service has varied from 121 to 10 per cant. He urged
that the sum in question is altogether inadequate, and that
better provision should be made for the spiritual wants of
Roman Catholics in the navy.

a sum down. (Hear, hear.) The money can be got
through the National Debt Commissioners, and need not
come into the estimates. These remarks he made in no
unfriendly spirit; and, as a matter of form, ho moved that
vote 1 be reduced by 2,000 men.
Mr. CORRY had no doubt his right hon. friend who
prepared the estimates will justify himself on the general
question. The number of naval cadets was erroneously
stated by his noble friend, who omitted the second-class
cadets, retained to keep up the rank of masters in the navy
—most necessary to the well-being and safety of our ships.
(Hear, hear.) It would be very undesirable to increase
the number of artificers, which is too small, by reducing
the number of so important a force as the Royal Marines.
The deficient expenditure at Chatham and Portsmouth
dockyards arises from the commercial pressure of last
year, in consequence of which the late Board of Admiralty
could not complete the contracts, and several are yet un-
completed. It is very necessary that these works should
be completed. The American navy contains several
vessels of enormous speed, and two vessels of the
Inconstant class are as few as we ought to have. The
completion of the Hercules arises from some of her iron
being found defective; and that of the Monarch by an
accident in the yard where she is being built. The
building of so many small vessels in one year is rendered
necessary by the removal of 151 screw ships and 73 sailing
ships from the efficient list since 1860, and the fact that
none had been supplied to take their place. It is neces-
sary to keep up both the Channel and the foreign squadron.
In China we have a large trade to protect, and pirates to
watch and capture; fourteen treaty ports; and in
Japan five treaty ports. The squadron has 4,000 men, and
ho wished the number could be reduced. The number of
men on foreign stations, exclusive of the Mediterranean,
last year and this year, has been 19,000, which is less than
any year since 1860 ; and since 1862 there has been a re-
duction of 8,000. He will pay attention to the subject,
with the wish to reduce the number if practicable. Foreign
squadrons are useful in keeping up the skill of officers and
met ; and to keep a large fleet in the channel would excite
the 'ivalry of neighbouring nations. He would be happy,
if possible, to improve the state of the lists. (Hoar, hear.)
Mr. SAMUDA complained that only £570,000 of the sum
asked for is to be applied to the augmentation of the iron-
clad fleet, and said that money voted last year for ironclad
vessels has been used for other purposes. The rotten wood
and composite vessels ought to be replaced by ironclads ;
but the lilliputian navy has been increased at the expense
of the ironclad navy. He disapproved of the proposal to
sell the old wooden ships, and stated that they were cap-
able of being covered with si-inch plate, and of carrying a
sufficient armament, and turrets, with a free board of 10
feet. The cost of such conversion would be £lOO,OOO each
ship, and the work could be completed within six months.
They should, therefore, be retained as a reserve in case of
emergency. He approved of the proposal to build two
armour-plated vessels of 3,700 tons, but ho complained that
the Admiralty had no stability or certainty in their plans,
citing in corroboration of the statement that we have as
many as six classes of ironclads, and that two more are
about to be added to the list. He also condemned the policy
of building any ship which was to rely upon speed for
safety, and pointed out that if the proposed ship —the Incon-
stant—carne into collision with a vessel of the class of the
Agincourt, which had accomplished more than 15 knots,
she would be stink in a few minutes. For these reasons
he entreated the Admiralty to rely upon their own judg-
ment, and not to be led away by what other nations might
be doing.

Admiral WALCOT recommended that we should build
no more large ships, but confine our efforts to the construc-
tion of vessels of 4,000 tons, which were every way more
handy and useful. With respect to naval expenditure,
there have been since 1837 no less than 17 First Lords of
the Admiralty and 15 Secretaries; and economy under
such a fluctuation of opinion was impossible.
Sir M. PETO was glad to learn from the statement
made by the noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty, the
other evening, that there is to be a decrease in the repairs
of vessels, as it is an indication that the board intend to
pursue a wiser policy for the future. It is perfectly im-
possible to construct vessels of a compound character so as
to render them permanent and efficient. With regard to
the store department, he always felt that until it was com-
bined with the Controller's department, and both placed
under the responsibility of that officer, they could not ex-
pect to arrive at such a system of management as would
ensure efficiency and economy. He was rather surprised
to have heard the hon. member for Pontefract say that the
purchase of timber was the result of the pressure of the
House of Commons, when in point of fact the money so
expended was diverted from the purpose for which it was
distinctly voted by Parliament—namely, for the construc-
tion of iron-clad vessels. That was an error which he
hoped no Board of Admiralty would again venture to re-
peat. The next point to which he wished to call attention
was the iron ballast. A groat portion of it consisted of
Swedish iron, and was worth about Xi a ton. As regards
the dockyards, the Admiralty ought to have the advice of
pre.ctical men. The time has come for consideration
whether we might not combine with friendly nations for
the protection of trade, and so economise the expenditure
for some of our foreign squadrons.
Sir J. PAIUNGTON expressed satisfaction at the tem-
perate tone in the criticism of the estimates. In the groat
changes necessary it was impossible to avoid a consider-
able increase of expenditure. An objection was made to
the proposal to sell old ships, on the ground that they
might be converted in emergency to use ; but we have now
from 90 to 100 old line-of-F4attle ships and frigates lying in
our ports practically useless. The old ships aro maintained
at no less a cost than a thousand a year, and though some
of them would be serviceable as hospitals, it would hare
been more useful to send many of them to market, whore
they would have realised probably .£200,000. As for wooden
ships, they may be a valuable addition to the nary. The
United States are buildiug six of a large class. The French
peed, capable of keeping the sea as cruisers,
avroeb
eis of
uilding some with the same object, namely, to have
ss great s
and also able, as far as gnus go, to carry heavy armour,
The Government have considered it much more economi-
cal to build vessels of a new type than to expend money
in repairing old ships. As to the policy of reducing the
expenditure of our foreign squadron, the fact is there has
been a great reduction in the number of men and tonnage
employed in the last seven years ; and a reduction in each
year. In 1860 we employed on all our foreign stations
35,768 men and 189,800 tons; 1861, 33,500 men and
202,000 tcus ; 1862, 48,900 men and 209,000 tons ; 1863,
33.500 men and 187,000 tons; 1864, 32,200 men and 190,000
tons ; 1865, 28,000 mon and 173,600 tons ; andlB66, 27,000
men and 167,000 tons ; and for the present year the num-
bers are 24,800 men and 160,000 tons. The same result is
observable with respect to the West African squadron. It
is curious that hon. gentlemen only found out the cost of
these establishments after breathing the invigorating air
of the opposite side of the house. The immense expendi-
ture on the retired list is to be regretted. It began with the
great war, and men cannot be thrown over who are on it.
The plan suggested by the honanember for Pontefract is not
new. Another plan was to be cautious, to introduce no
larger proportion of officers than is required. The late
Board of Admiralty were not so cautious as they migh t
have been. The present board have limited the number of
cadets and assistant clerks admitted. In reply to Mr.
Childers, he said the prevention of promotion among
cadets does not arise from the aggregate number, but from
the number of a particulay class.
Mr.;STANSFELD moved that the chairman report pro-
gress.
Mr. CORRY agreed. He said the flag-ship on the West
Coast of Africa is too large, but a smaller could not be
sent at the time, and a smaller will be sent as soon as pos-
sible.

The motion was agreed to, and the chairman reported
progress.

The Lyon King of Arms Bill passed through committee.
Mr. M'EVOY moved for leave to bring in a bill to re-
peal the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Mr. O'REILLY and Sir G. BOWYER deprecated the intro-
duction of the bill at the present moment unless there were
a certain prospect of a practical result being attained, and
they mentioned that this Was the opinion of the leading
Roman Catholic prelates.

Mr. GLADS TONE, though ready to support the repeal
of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, held it to be of little use to
raise this question unless Mr. M'Evoy had an assurance
that the bill would be supported by the Government.
No member of the Government was present to give an
answer, and a long conversation followed, in which various
Irish members supported the view taken by Mr. O'Reilly,
and urged delay. Ultimately, leave was given to bring in
the bill, and it was read a first time.
The house was counted out, by a division •on a motion
by Mr. LOWE to refer the petition of Mr. Webb Shield;
C.E., to a select committee, at 2 o'clock

month the work of building the piers, Nos. 1 and 2,
of the bridge had made considerable advance, and
that the masonry and brickwork was now in parts
up to and above high-water level, and was as to the
mode of execution perfectly satisfactory. The works
in connexion with the caisson of No. 3 pier remained
in the same state as at the date of last report. Of
pier No. 4 the work of sinking the caissons was pro-
ceeding. One of them was now down within about
four feet of the full depth. The progress with that
pier had been slower than he had hoped, in conse-
quence of the number of old piles and a bed of
cemented stones in and around its site, and which
caused great trouble. The bottom of another of
the caissons of the old bridge had been raised and
cleared away during the mouth, and the staging
and centering of the first arch, that next the
Surrey shore, was making progress, and the iron
arched ribs were now beginning to arrive at the works.
Mr. Lawley, chairman of the Local Government
and Taxation Committee, moved the adoption of a
report prepared by them, containing a census of the
number of persons engaged, occupied, or employed
daily in the city of London and also of the num-
ber of persons resorting to the city daily. In that
day census, he said, facts had come out which he
trusted would in future tend to better legislation
with regard to the city, for it had been of late years
placed at a great disadvantage by the night returns
of its population, made and. published by the autho-
rity of Parliament, those night returns and the fal-
lacious reasoning upon them having led to many
mistakes in legislation. The city population, from
the census of 1861,, had been assumed to be 113,000;
but that was its night or sleeping population only,
and it had been ascertained that 273,000 people re-
sorted to it daily in the pursuit of business, and one-
half male adult population of London, or 500,000
souls, entered within its precincts every day. The
Registrar-General's return, so far as regarded the
city, was full of fallacies from beginning to end, and
a popular writer, adopting the figures contained in
it, had stated the city proper was year by year de-
creasing. Nothing could be more erroneous. How
was it, he asked, that the Government employed
persons so willfully blind, or who so continuously
misrepresented facts in relation to the city? Dr.
Farr, ou being asked in a committee of the House
of Commons how many of the members of the cor-
poration of London resided and slept in the city, re-
plied that almost all of them did, the truth being
that only 35 of them slept and resided in it, 163 of
them iu other parts of the metropolis. Again, ac-
cording to the census of 1861 only one city appren-
tice slept in the city—(a laugh)—the facts being
that on premises connected with the two printing
offices of Messrs. Spottiswoode, in which the census
tables were printed, there were 148 resident appren-
tices ; that there were 1,762 apprentices to freemen
recorded in the Chamber of London, and that it was
estimated the city apprentices enrolled and unenrolled
were at least 3,000. Notwithstanding that, only
one sleeping apprentice in the city found his way
into the census of 1861. Further, in that census there
were recorded as sleeping in the city 9 bankers, no
underwriters, and 32 stockbrokers; 44 farmers, 4 farm
bailiffs, 28 gardeners, 6 fishermen, and 1 shepherd;
showing, according to the Registrar-General, that
the city stood at the head of the agricultural districts
of England, as regarded the cultivation of the soil,
therebeing 41 farmers to the square mile. (A laugh.)
The number of inhabited houses removed since 1811
and the number said to be uninhabited in 1861 were
represented as equal to all the houses in the three
cities of Chichester, Wells, and Ely. That was
assumed to imply decay in the city, yet the rentals
had increased between 1811 and 1866 from £564,243
to £2,109,935, or about 273 per cent., and the fewer
houses of 1866 were worth more than the more
numerous houses of 1811 by £38,617,000. In the
30 years from 1771 to 1801 the increase of rateable
value in the city was 11 per cent. ; in the 30 years
between 1801 and 1831 it was 56 per cent. ; in the
30 years between 1831 and 1866 it was 61 per cent.,
and in the six years between 1861 and 1866 it was
64 per cent. All that surely afforded no signs of
decay. The Customs duties paid in the city of Lon-
don exceeded those paid in the rest of the kingdom,
and the trading profits under Schedule D in the city
exceeded those of all the rest of the metropolis. Again,
the census of 1861, which had been taken as a basis
for estimating the criminal position of the city, made
the city more criminal than any district of the king-
dom—so much so, that every registered inhabitant
must on the average have been convicted of crime at
least three times in the course of his or her life. (A
laugh.) Mr. Elias Davis questioned both the accu-
racy of in some respects and the necessity for the
census taken by the corporation, and suggested, amid
some uproar, that it be sent to the British Museum,
if it were only to show upon what worthless objects
the Common Council spent its funds. The report
was adopted. The Court declined to agree to a re-
port of the Guildhall Improvement Committee, em-
bodying a plan and estimate for a proposed new
library at Guildhall, at an expense, exclusive of
fittings, of £25,000. On the recommendation of
one of their committee they passed a resolution
granting to Mr. Chambers, the Common Sergeant, an
allowance of £550 a year, in consideration of his
acting as judge in the Mayor's Court, in conse-
quence of the increase of business, and on his ceas-
ing to practise as counsel in that court. The Court,
on the recommendation of the Coat, Corn, and Fi-
nance Committee, voted £lO5 to the Working Men's
Educational Union ; £2lO to the Shipwrecked
Fishermen and Mariners' Royal Benevolent Society;
and 250 guineas towards the building fund of the
Field-lane Ragged Schools and Night Refuges.
The meeting was then adjourned.