The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-03 00:00:00

so, it was a moat gross injustice upon the church to de-
prive it of its rights without equivalent and without
compensation on r the one hand, and on the other to
exempt the pariithiouer born his pecuniary obligation.
(Hear, hear.) There wore two great difficulties sur-
rounding the question, or rather two classed of diffi•
culties. The one was the ill-feeling and the legal diffi-
culties involved In the levjing of a church rate when it
was opposed; the other and much greater difficulty was
how to deal witl r the parishes where a majority of the
vestry were un willing to impose the tax. For the
latter there was no practical remedy. There was a
right, but it was incapable of being enforced. . But
surely the case 'as against church rates was inh.nitely
A' ,l^ponded, not upon an arbitrary
levy to be enforced upon ail, the vnlertlry
choice of the majority, who assessed themselves and the
whole parish equally. (Hear, hear.) If no individual
was to pay a tax of the immediate object of which he
did not approve, and if no majority could impose a
pecuniary obligation on a minority, a blow would be
struck at the very root of the whole system of taxa-
tion. (Hear.) It must be admitted that within cer-
tain limits and for purposes of importance the ma-
jority should have the power by taxation of
binding the minority and enforcing their decision.
He had not heard the noble duke, or any, contend that
the maintenance of the fabric of the Church and the
celebration of Divine worship was not an act of para-
mount national importance. But the noble duke ap-
peared to entertain the opinion that it might be safely
entrusted to the voluntary principle, and a reference had
been made to what had taken place in Scotland on the
disruption of the national Church, and to the effort made
by the late Bishop of London in the metropolis. He had
the greatest respect for the voluntary principle, and was
of opinion that it might be safely trusted to when a great
immediate, and energetic effort was required in any
particular district ; but he did not think it could be
trusted to for the purpose of raising year after year a
certain fixed and definite sum, and was convinced that
whilst all who bad dealt with public subscriptions, whe-
ther for the building of churches, the establishment of
teospitals, or other charities, had found little difficulty in
obtaining sums for the immediate and pressing purpose,
they had found the greatest difficulty in building up a
continuous list of subscribers. (Hear.) It was not at
all surprising that in the case of the disruption of the
Church of Scotland a great effort should have been made
by the Free Church to place themselves on a level with
the Establishment, nor that in the case of London a great
stimulus amulet have been given to the building of new
churches. In such cases the voluntary principle ought
to be applied and relied upon, but he could not with the
same confidence rely upon the voluntary principle for the
purpose of steadily maintaining what had been volun-
tarily set on foot. No one pretended that there was
any injustice in calling upon a person to pay the obliga-
tion which was imposed upon property ; but a person
could not be called upon to contribute to this object of
national importance unless under the direction of a ma-
jority. He was afraid, with respect to church-rates, that
not only many members of the Church of England
had combined with the Dissenters, but that amongst
both there were many who were not actuated by a feel-
ing of hostility against the Church so much as against
the impost, which they felt to be a grievance. Never-
theless, he could not consent that a very large propor-
tion of those who were carrying on the agitation against
church rates were doing so on political grounds, and for
the purpose of taking away the power and influence of
the Church, to which, as dissenters, they were opposed.
He knew there were large masses of political dissenters
who were animated by deadly hostility to the Church of
England, and who relied upon the support of conscien-
tious dissenters and honest churchmen for the purpose
of carrying into effect their main object of lowering and
degrading and despoiling the Church of England, and
compelling it to rely, if they could compel it to rely,
upon the voluntary principle. (Hear.) He could not,
in point of principie, concur with those who contended
that the dissenter, as a dissenter, was entitled to be re-
lieved from that impost. At this moment he himself
paid tithes on a portion of his property to a Roman
Catholic. But if he were to say he had a conscientious
objection to pay a Roman Catholic those tithes, which
ought to go for the maintenance of the Protestant
Church, and so refuse to fulfil his legal obligation, the
result would be that the tithes would go into his own
pocket. Now, what was the difference between tithes
and church rates I (Hear.) In principle there was no
difference whatever. But the payment of tithe could be
enforced by law, whilst the church rate could not be
enforced practically against the dissenter. In this
case he should be willing to stretch a point ; and if it were
possible to come to any arrangement he should be ready
to take any step which might be the means of re-
lieving conscientious, honest dissenters, beyond the
maintenance of their own places of worship. (Hear.)
But surely as some equivalent he might ask the
dissenter to be exempt on the ground of deriving no
benefit from the church and its services. It was said
that was "ticketing" a dissenter. But if a dissenter
did not claim exemption as a dissenter, what right had
he to be exempted on the ground of being a dissenter
(Hear.) Such a proposition as the present, if carried,
would permanently alienate the dissenters from the
church, and be an inducement to persons to declare them-
selves dissenters. If every person were entitled to be
exempted from church rates who simply declared that
he entertained a conscientious scruple, he was afraid
that a considerable number of exemptions would be
claimed by those who could not plead conscientious ob-
jections. (Hear.) But if dissenters were to be exempted,
ought they not to cease to have a veic3in the levying of
the rate—ought they not be told they must forego any
claim on the services of the church, that they should
have no voice in the choice cf churchwardens, that they
should not be eligible to the office of churchwarden ?
(Hear.) He admitted the great difference which existed
under the present law, but those who proposed to make
a change bad failed to suggest any remedy. The propo-
sition to make up the payment out of the Consolidated
Fund had been objected to, as well as the suggestion
that dissenters should claim exemption as dissenters.
He had heard it suggested that theme should be levied in
every parish, not a church rate, but a worship rate, to
be applied according to the option of the persons contri-
buting; but that proposition had been objected to on
grounds of the most conflicting character. One class of
dissenters objected to any compulsory payment at all,
and they would as strenuously resist the levying a rate
for the maintenance of their own places of worship
as for any other places of worship. Relying
upon the voluntary principle, they repudiated
any notion of a general rate. (Hear, hear.) After
hearing the noble duke support the principle of the
complete abolition of church rates he was surprised to
hear him propose that the operation of the bill should
be postponed for four or five years. That prc position
was more objectionable than even the bili itself. (Hear.)
In the next place, the noble duke proposed that there
should be levied upon the land cf England a charge
equivalent to the amount of the church rates. Un-
doubtedly, if the proposition could be carried out that
there should be a fund levied upon estates equal to the
church rates, it would require the most serious con-
sideration. But it was entirely at variance with tho
object of the bill ; and if the noble duke looked to such
a result there could be no more certain mode of defeat-
ing it than the abolition of the existing payment, for
the difficulties which now existed would very soon rise
again. Suppose a portion of an estate so charged to be
sold, and the purchaser to be a dissenter, the case which
now existed would again arise. It was true there would
be the advantage of a rued and positive charge, and a
vestry would have no discretion in the matter. (Hear.)
The only mode of arriving at a solution of the question
was by voluntary action in the first instance—by im-
posing a permanent liability, and not trusting to the
operation of the voluntary principle. (Hear, hear.)
Every other proposal had been repudiated in the course
of the discussion. He confessed that anxious as he was
—and he was most anxious—to see the present lax
placed upon a difftrent and more satisfactory footing,
he was so sensible a the cif cultiee surrounding the
question that be could venture to give no distinct or
decided pledge that he could undertake to introduce a
measure on the subject. The question was one which
must be apprnacheil with the greatest caution and
deliberation. It was a question, moreover, on which
some advances should be made both on one side and
the other, and on which before any suggestion or com•
promise could be considered there ought to be some rea-
sonable ground of its being accepted. He saw no solu-
tion of the difficulty except by the operation of a volun-
tary commutation of church rates. One difficulty would
be to fix the aineunt of the averages upon wbich the
f m derl. With regard to a great
number of rural pa. wens •.. nu L.L4- • ; l 'VI' -acre
not very large there would be a good prospect of a imolai
commutation if the option were given to proprietors and
landowners to commute by a permanent charge upon
their property, or by the payment of a sufficient sum to
meat the annual charge. The amount of charge in rural
parishes would be comparatively small. In the case of
a parish of the average rental of 6,0001. alrear the
amount of a rate at 2d. in the pound would only be 501.
Looking at the great number of these small parishes, he
was convinced that a sufficient sum would be contributed
to give security for the average value of the rate.
(Hear.) He believed further that many persons who
objected to pay church rates, many persons who dis-
sented from the church, would be willing to contribute
such au amount once for all to redeem the payment of
the rates. He did not say that he looked forward with
entire confidence to the operation of that system,
throughout the great towns and parishes, but he believed
that some system of voluntary commutation was the
only one likely to remove the difficulties which sur-
rounded the question, and maintain those rights of the
church which, not for the benefit cf the church, but for
the benefit of the community at largo, and more especi-
ally the poorer part of the community, ought not to be
left to chance or the voluntary system, but to be based
on a permanent foundation. Whatever course might be
adopted it would be necessary to consider and limit the
precise objects towards which the fund should be applied.
But the adoption of any such course would be rendered.
perfectly hopeless it their lordships should accept
the.present bid. (Hear.) Ihe motive for commutation
would be done away withif the legal obligation to pay
should be removed. If their lordships thought it possible
to come to any compromise or agreement—if they
thought it possible to make terms satisfactory to the
Church and conciliatory to the Dissenters, and to place
the matter on a satisfactory and just footing, they ought
as a first step to reject the proposition for an absolute
and unconditional abolition of church rates. (Cheers.)
He could not pledge the Government to introduce any
measure on the subject, but he should be glad to per-
ceive the slightest indication on the part of the Dis-
senters to meet the Church half way. (Hear.) So long
as the Dissenters were determined to be content with
nothing but absolute repeal they tied down the bands of
the members of the Church, and compelled them in self-
defence to fall back upon that which, however imperfect,
yet.to a great extent did maintain that which it was of
the utmost importance to maintain, the
.fabric of the
Established Church, and to make a due provision for