The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-24 00:00:00

SUN, LO N DY9 N, SATURDAY E V Efly I MO,

day that this was the age of coups-de-main, and coups-de-
main were much the same in one country as another. They
had one on the 14th of last February, when the country
thought they bad the strongest Government that had
existed since the time of Mr Pitt, but woke up on the
15th and found they had no Government at all. Things
changed fast in these days, and as from hints which he
had just heard from the other side he thought he perceived
at least a tendency on the part of the house to take upon
itself the functions of the execativo, he thought it might
not be out of place to ask what was the amount of force
by which we were to be defended, what was its destina-
tion, and what the general arrangements were for placing
it in the most eTective condition ? He objected to
standing armies, considering them to be the great curse of
Europe at the present moment. They not only drained
the strength and wealth of the country from the right
direction to the wrong, but provoked the same evils in all
neighbouring countries. (Hear.) That was not all; it
re-acted upon us in another way. Every invention for the
destruction of mankind which was made or adopted in one
of those foreign countries we were obliged to take up also.
For instance, some years ago the Americans built a large
class of ships, as large as our 64's, which they called frigates
—and when the war broke out, taking them to be frigates,
our Government very stupidly sent out frigates which were
not much more than half their size to meet them. The
consequence was that great loss and discredit befel our
navy. We were therefore compelled to increase the size
of our ships. It was the same with the Miele rifle. We
were obliged to follow their lead in the adoption of that
weapon. Now he was told that America was building
war ships as large as the Leviathan ; and for what ? For
the serviee of America ? Certainly not. But did they
suppose that there was no power in Europe that would
buy them? The other day he saw an account of another
new invention—a double-barreled rifle ; of course we must
have them too. An extraordinary gun had been invented
at Newcastle, and we should doubtless have to introduce
that. There was another thing : if these large standing
armies were kept up, you must give them the means of
fighting ; for, like a pack of hounds, if you kept them
shut up, and did not give them blood sometimes, they
were not worth a farthing. (Hear, hear.) Standing
armies must have war, for it was the trade
they lived by, and it was in their interest to do all they
could to promote it. He remembered a story of a party
who, dining at the Thatched House, heard a great noise
in the room overhead, and on sending for the waiter
and inquiring what it was all about, were answered,
" Oh, its only a party of physicians who have been dining
upstairs, and they are now drinking the low fever with
three times three. (A laugh.) And the soldier, in the same
way, was always ready to hail that which was the greatest
curse to the rest of mankind as his best friend. There was
one large portion of the population of every continental
nation that was ever anxious for war, and ready to do all
in its power to provoke it. But, beyond that, he could
give them proof of what he believed a large class of per-
sons but little suspected— namely, that of all people in the
world the English were the most hated on the Continent.
What was the cause he would not attempt to explain, but
the fact was so. Yet, knowing all this—knowing, as we
ought to know, how we were hated, we were nevertheless
going on from day to day irritating our nearest neigh-
bours, and insulting them in public and in private. This
was habitual with us, but did we suppose they would stand
it ? (Hear, and a laugh.) We kept a den of assassins, who
were let loose upon our neighbours as opportunity offered.
Of course, we were entitled to have any amusements we
liked, but it was well to remember what they cost. But it
was said foreign Governments had no just cause of complaint
against us in this matter. But was it so ? We were in this
like Nell Gwynne's fot t elan, who did t of mind the thing of
which he was charged, but was very much annoyed at being
told of it. (Hear, and a laugh.) It must be recollected
that this den of assassins we were thus upholding and pro-
testing in this country was no new people. They were the
hereditary descendants of those who first began the same
game in 1793—those who began by declaring that they
would make war upon every people in Europe who did not
as they had done—kill their king. In 1839 a very remark-
able French State paper was issued, in which it was stated
—" The assassination of kings in general, and of him in
particular whom France has placed upon the throne, is
preached by those persons as a sacred duty. And the idea
of the Government which is reserved for France, and by
which they meant to redress the abuses of monarchy, is
the republic of 1793 and the reign of tenor." In the fol-
lowing year there was found upon the unhappy man who
had just been executed secret instructions given to him
from this country, which really meant nothing less than
assassination ; and it was said, " We know you can't get
arms ; they won't let you have arms ; then let each man
make use of his knife and assassinate a sentinel, end thus
you will get arms.' Let the country, however, continue
to encourage this den of assassins if it pleased, only let
them remember what they would have to pay for it in the
end. In 1819 a body of these men went to Malta, and Mr.
Hume made a complaint to the Colonial Minister—Lord J.
Russell--he believed—one of these people having been sent
away from the island by the Governor. In his answer the
noble lord called them itinerant revolutionists; ehom the
Government would not allow to remain at Malta.' For his
(Hr. Drummond's) part, he could not understand how,
consistently, the Government could allow them to re-
main anywhere else. In 1855 one of those persons wrote a
letter to the Queen so grossly insulting that there was
hardly any passage fit to quote, and ha referred to it
merely to show that there was one uninterrupted course
going en from year to year, and that in short these men
were purely what might be called political Thugs. Did we
suppose that the Emperor of the French would allow us to
go on harbouring these people here ? He was not standing
up as the protector of the Emperor of the French, but he
entreated the house to have the common sense to put this
country in such a state of defence that we might at least
be able to defy those wo persisted in insulting. ( Hear.) So
far as he knew, the conduct of his Imperial Majesty to-
wards this country had always been frank and open, and
he knew he had said " it is neither my interest nor incli-
nation to make war upon you ; but this danger I see—you
easy irritate my people and my army to such an extent that
they may be so strong that I cannot keep them back," (A.
laugh.) The hon. gentleman opposite laughed—long might
he laugh in ignorance—but, nevertheless he hoped there
were others present who took a calm and serious *leer of
the question. Re was not suggesting that a great standing
army should be kept up—far from it ; he thought that iu
all probability we had kept up too large a standing army
--but he wished to show that we possessed within our-
selves the power of effectual defence. He would not weary
the house bygoing into det tile of this power—but of course
he meant the militia. He complained that this force was
not called out, and asked if the officers were not kept to-
gether how was the staff to be kept in an effective state.
The Lord-Lieutenant of every county ought to have full
information of the force which at any time he could call
into action, and of the number of waggons an r horses
available at a moment's notice for service. Those arrange.
ments should be made at once, and not left until it was
too late. We could hardly hope to maintain friendship
with other powers while we took no steps to put down those
who preached the right of murdering kings in the abstract
- -(a laugh)—for that was the defence the other
day. Wkile we kept peop,e here to preach that doctrine,
depend upon it, if the opportunity offered, all the sove-
reigns of Europe would join against us - -and serve us right.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) We had attacked a great
people. Much had been said about the doctrine of Civis
Romanus ; but the doctrine we were now contending for
was a great deal worse—it was the doctrine of Lingua Ro-
manus----the right to preach doctrines utterly subversive of
the governments of other countries, and utterly subversive
of peace and order. But whatever wo did in this respect.
he advised the house at all events to take care that our
means of defence were effective. (Hear, hear.)
General OEEL understood the appeal made to him was
that he should make some general statement in explana-
tion of the estimates, and being too sensible of the indul-
pgeensecehilimeehelafdteextpheeririewnicsehdesa,thtehewheaunmdsmoefkethtehehtonetsaetetomeoupt-
before asking for the next vote. There was no wish to
hurry through the army estimates, and every opportunity
would be afforded for the fullest discussion.
Mr. HORSHAN observed the complaint was that the
hon. and gallant officer was departing from the established
practise of moving these estimates without making an ex-
planatory statement.
Mr. SMYTHE complained of the summary awl arbi-
trary manner in which certain regiments of militia had been
disembodied. Last autumn a number of regiments had been
embodied, and the commanding officers expecting that the
same notice of disembodiment would be given as at the
close of the war, viz., three months, took great pains to get
their regiments up to a state of efficiency and discipline;
but so far as his own command went he received an order
about a week ago from Gen. Scarlett, accompanied by a
leeixttteerenstaretginimg
regiments and
Gaeodvetrhnemtenwthhieand
he
eesolved to disembody
mended and another in the same distrieTwrerSemtoybtheedi) csommn--
bodied by the Ist of May. Oninquiry ho found that those
regiments were selected for disembodiment which had not
contributed their quota of volunteers to the line—viz., 17
per cent. on their respective strengths. But his regiment
had, by the 13th April, contributed more than its quota,
and he found that others which had not contributed their
quota of recruits had been retained. After referring to the
hardship of sending the men to their homes at so snort a
notice, which afforded them no time for communicating
with their friends and obtaining employment, he asked the
Government to reconsider their decision with the view of
diminishing the number of regiments to be reduced. If
they persisted in the order that had been given, he h.:hayed
that not one-fourth or one-fifth of the men would be forth-
coming when they were wante I.
Lord BURGHLEY also urged the Government to recon-
sider their decision.

Col. B. KNOX said that the• whole onus o£ disembody-
ing the militia, which it was the intention of The late Go-
verneuent to have done, ought not to be laid on the present
Minister for War. The militia had beat retained longer
than they might have been, in the hope that many of the
men would be absorbed in the regular army. He trusted
that the militia would not be rendered discentented by
similar treatment to that which they had received after
the late war. They ought not to be sent to their hornee
at a time when they could not procure work, an I the Scotch
regiments ought to have been disembodied before the time
when labourers were hired in Scotland. As the present
Minister fur War did not frame the estimatee, he ought
not to be calved on to make a statement of the grounds on
which they were founded.
Mr. HORSMAN explained that he had only said he
hoped the right lion. and gallant gentleman would make
the usual statement which was made by the head of hie
department.
Col. NORTH had hoped that the Government would
have retained the services of the militia. He had com-
manded a regiment of militia at the close of the last war,
and he had brought before the house the conduct of the
Government towards the militia, the abrupt manner in
which they had been treated, and how little regard was
shows to those regiments who had volunteered:to serve and
had served abroad. A soldier to be of any value roust be
disciplined, and that could not be done in a short tune ;
and therefore he thought the country would be henotieed,
if instead of disembodying 16 regiments of xniliti e the
strength of those re,giae nts was only reduced so a 4 to form
hereafter a nucleus for raising them to their full force.
Mr. RICH hoped that the Minister for War would enter
seriously on the g noral question of the militia in reference
to
militia its
r e e 12d- i i :Li
on
tg
pa
rnody fillinge ( i
s o fruitful u p the
a regular
nursery
the lino lie
e
be-
lieved that returns in the War-office would show that the
had been expt eed Desertions film the tni'itia were very
frequent, and a sort of trade was male of enlisting in one
' regiment after the other, while the bast :ncn in each regi-
ment were not anxious to enlist in the lire. If the militia
was called ou'', prenencntly, as it was in the last wee, it
• would be an eff,ctive 'force, but it w, u'd not be so on the
' system now pursued. Be suggested that soldiers et. the
Hoe leaving after tea years' service ought to have 6 I.
a day given them to enrol themselves in a kind of resavAl
force, which could be called out on an emergency, and
. would afford an exzellent force of experienced soldiers.
If we were to have a militia, he thought a local militia
was a better reserve than that which now existed.
armyeould he .., a
He hoped the Minister for War would either go into the
question of the militia himself or lot a committee of the
i
be recruited from t o
militia,
and
dohwo
wthevre
better r• larva force in the country.
house be acon's; lees',
.
Sir DE L. EVANS said he believed that the militia
PPuiatedthe

furnished a very considerable number of men to the line,
and if there was a necessity for it they would come as
readily into the line as they did in the last war. An hon.
member had expressed his alarm at trusting to the militia,
in case of invasion, but he (Sir De L. Evans) would have
the greatest confidence in that force in such a case. He
could not find that fault with the militia which some hon.
members did. It was a constitutional force, and was found
to be very efficient at the time of the Peninsular war. He
regretted that the Minister of War had not taken warning
from the objections that were made in so many quarters to
the conduct of the late Government when they disembodied
the militia after the late war. There was a mutiny in a re-
giment in Ireland, the men of which had their coats taken
off their backs, and were dismissed without a farthing in
their pockets. The present Government said that the mili-
tia was called out not by them but by the late Government
but he maintained that the present Government was bound
legally and morally, as well as by policy, to act in the same
way towards that force as if they had raised it themselves.
The subaltern officers of the militia had been put to great
expense six months ago, in equipping themselves, and it
washard upon them to be put out of employment. It was
impolitic to treat a force like this with neglect, having re-
gard to its usefulness as a means of securing the safety and
the defence of the country. He did not think that any mi-
litary functionary in the Government had allowed the step
of disembodyiag the militia; it was less the act of the Mi-
nister of War than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
sought to eke out his cheeseparing budget by getting rid
of 16 regiments of militia. The militia force at present,
looking to the recruits it had obtained, was in a better con-
dition than the line.

Lord PALMERSTON was glad to hear the testimony
borne by the hon. and gallant gentleman who had just sat
down to the efficiency of the militia force; his testimony was
of the highest value, and he was sure that it would not
only gratify the militia, but be most satisfactory to the
country to have such an opinion from so high an authority
on the subject But he (Lord Palmerston) must protest
against the doctrine, so current in the house and the coun-
try, that the chief object of the militia was to supply re-
cruits to the line. He held that to be a mistake, and a per-
version of the object far which the militia was established.
It was very creditable to the militia when they supplied
recruits to the line, and we ought to be very thankful
to the officers and the men who made such sacrifices as
they did when they volunteered into the line, for it was
obvious that it was the best men who went into it, and it
was a sacrifice of the feelings of the commanding officer to
part with them. In moments of emergency it was highly
desirable for the country and creditable to the militia
force that they should enlist in the line ; but it ought to
be remembered that the object of a militia was that we
should have a dormant force ready to be called out on a
sudden emergency, and fit to take its past on that emer-
gency. We might be attacked by a force larger than the
60,00) men of the regular army in this country, and it was
important that we should have 80,000, 90,00, or 100,00)
men of the militia, officered, equipped, armed, clothed,
and to a certain extent disciplined, and ready to be called
out at a fortnight's ❑otice for the defence of the country.
He wished to impress on the house not to judge of the
militia force by the number of recruits it had given to the
line Still they had furnished a great many men to the
army during the late war, and now since they had been
called out they had furnished a large number of recruits
to the line. The state of the case now was this—when last
year we were obliged to send a large force to India, in fact
the grater part of the force in this country, the Govern-
ment told the house, and the house felt the force of it,
that it was not safe to leave the United Kingdom stripped
of all armed force, and that a ready means of supplying
the deficiency in our army was by calling out the militia.
The Government was urged to call out the whole of the
militia, but they only called out a part. It was understood
that they were called out for the emergency, and when by
the progress of recruiting, so honous able is it had proved
to have been to the feeling of the country, the regular
army was restored to its efficiency, it was naturally the in-
tention of the present, as it was that of the late govern-
ment to disembody such of the militia as were no longer
necessary ; and when it was said that it was the Chancellor
of the Exchequer who forced this step on the head of the
army, it must be remembered that if a larger number of
men were kept in arms than the revenue enabled you to
pay, two courses only were open—you must either in-
crease the revenue or reduce the number of men. He
certainly thought that if the alternative before him was
the keeping up an excessive number of men or erecting
works for the defence of the country, such as the fortifica-
tion of our dockyards and the providing barracks for our
troops, he had no doubt that the wisest application of the
revenue would be, not to keep up a great number of men
in arms, but to apply it to the erection of defensive works.
Mr. B. JOHNSTONE did not complain of the disembe-
(liment of the militia, which it was understood would take
place when the temporary purpose for which they were
celled out was answered, but he conten led that it was
never inten led that it should be carried out in the way i❑
which it had been done, especially in the manner in which
it was applied to his regiment, which would be sent home
at a time when it was impossible for the men to obtain
work in Scotland. If the matter turned on a finaneial
question, it might be arranged to the satisfaction of the
militia, and the 10,000 men which it was desired to reduce
might be reduced by sending the married men of the dif-
ferent regiments home, and not by breaking up the whole
force. He had received an assurance from the Secretary
for War that his regiment was not to be disembodied,
and yet, to his surprise, it was one of the first that received
the order.

General PEEL said that, after the appeal ma le to him
on behalf of the militia, he must ba allowed to state the
grounds on which the disernboiiment had taken place. The
noble lord opposite (Palmerston) had fully stated the ac-
tual necessity there was, looking to the terms on which it
had been embodied, that a certain number of the militia
should be disembodied. Twenty-five thousand men of the
militia were called out in September to fill the gap caused
by the number of regular regiments which were sent to
India. The rank and file of the army in the United King-
dom was then 49,000. When the present government came
into-office the militia numbered 30,000 rank and file, awl
the army 70,000, no that there was an increase of 30,000
menbayond what was expected. Only 150.000/. was voted
for the militia ; it was paid to 30,0)0 men of which that
force was composed, and there being no further sum ap-
.

plicable to that force it became necessary to disembody
some of them. The principle on which it was proposed to
proceed was to retain in an embodied state those regiments
which had given their quota of men to the line, and yet
remained in full force, and secondly, to retain those who
hal given molt of their quota to the line, and also remained
effective, and to disembody all the others. He was respon-
siole for that arrangement. Almost every colunelof militia
had addressed him on the subject, and he should have been
happy to have obliged them by not disembodying their re-
gimeet 4, but he was bound to acton the principle which had
been laid down. He eentto the Horse Guards fora list of
the regiments embraced by that principle, and without
looking at it he ordered it to be acted on. Complaints had
been made of the suddenness with which the disembodi-
ment, had been carriedout; but militia were paid up to the
first of evrey month, and if they were not disembodied by
the Ist of May there would be great confusion in the ac-
counts. There was another object in view, which was to
keep up the number of troops which ha I been voted, and
which had not yet been attained. it had been said that on
the last occasion of disembodying the militia at the end of
the war, the militia were not well treated. He, however,
had been liberal, for he had given to the officers and the
medical staff the same gratuity which they received when
they had been embodied for a much longer time during the
war; an he did this on the ground that the expenses they
incurred were heavier in proportion when they were a short
time embodied. The men would receive 14 days' pay and
their slop clothing,] so that they would have 229. in their
pockets. He had been asked if the Government would put
a stop to the disembodiment, but he mast state that there
were Borne regiments the men belonging to which were on
their roads home already. Any compliment he might pay
to the militia would probably not be well received by the
colonels, but still he could assure them that no one had a
higher opinion of the militia than he had. He had seen
at Aldershott lately regiments of militia which were quite
equal to those of the line, and since the order for disem-
bodiment had been issued he had received an offer from
the Royal County Down Militia to form themselves into
a second battalion of a regiment of the line, the officers un-
dertaking to produce the thousand men necessary to make
up the battalion. He had not been able to take into con-
sideration this patriotic offer, as the number of men-
and battalions of the line was already fixed in the esti-
mates. He believed they might easily raiser" large force for
the army from the militia. This raised the question which
had been mooted by the noble lord opposite whether the
militia ought to be a nursery for the line. He (Gen. Peel)
thought the present system wanted revision and investiga-
tion. lie believed that it would be found in many in-
stances the numerical force of militia regiments a 3 stated
was eepaesees. He intended to endeavour to make the
present militia staff more effective. When militia regi-
ments were not called out for three years their staff be-
came inefficient. He had stated to the medical efficers of
militia that ho could not add to the permanent stiff of the
militia. The duty that staff now performed was to recruit
for the line ; but he thought that it might be made useful
in drilling the men they recruited; for now, when there
was a e(trees number of recruits coming in, there was a groat
want of efficient officers to drill and train them. This
might be done to a great extent by the permanent militia
staff. Ho believed that it was possible to make the mili-
tia a most efficient force, and one which would always be
looked on with respect.
The CHANCELLOR of the said that in
the c'eufill.ort:his -discussion some —a5.11,,es bad been made
against him which be could not pass over in silence. One
charge was made against him by the hon. and gallant mem-
ber fur Westminster, which appeared to him one of the
most unjustifiable and unauthorised charges ever made in
',erne went. He understood that hon. and gallant gentle-
man to say that the disembodiment of the militia was not
caused by the Minister of War, nor had any member of
the Government who bora a military character recommended
it, but flea the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to
secure the success of hls cheeseparing budget, had been the
cause of it. Whether the budget deserved that epithet he
would leave it to the house to decide, and he was not about
to defend it. But nothing could be more unjust than the
charge of the hon. and gallant officer. The decision with
regard to the militia ha been arrived at not on any specific
plan, but having regard to the general revenue of the coun-
try, and if the hon. and gallant gentleman had reflected on
what had passed in this respect he must have felt how un-
justifiable such a charge was. He might have remembered
that the esamates were those of the predecessors of the
present Government, and that the vote for the militia was
1.:,0,0U0/., Which would pay 30,00) men only for two
mo :the, and the late Secretary for War had frankly given
notice of his intention to disembody the militia. The
11')n• and gallant, gentleman, knowing this, ought to have
felt that the eliere.: he made against hint (Ur. Disraeli)
was not en: which ought to have fallen from him.
(fleara hear, hear ) With regard to the disembodying of
I the wiliti t, the Geverninentlia.l taken a course which had
occasioned them the greetest p-tin. No one soul t more
appreci, to the utilitia regimente and the inestimable ser-
vice: they Led done t o the country. He thought it we s
highly desirable that the militia should bo called out every
year, and he agreed Stith the noble lord (Palmerston) who
had addressed the hence with so much generous cendoer
towards the present Govererneut, that the militia was not
a num: yto the line bat a constitutional force. When
questions respecting expert liture were before the house,
a al when has, gentlemen like the hoe, and gallant innn-
b,r for Westminster on the hustings were so fond of dila-
tiug on the importance of a wise reduction of expenditure,
he would zr.k the house to consider how it was possible to
carry into effect that wise reduction of expenditure, how
it was possible to maint.lin a prudent economy in the ad-
ministration of our national resources, if we do not take a
general view of all our powers. However painful might
be the decision to which the Governor vat had come, he
hoped hen. and gallant gentlemen would acquit him of any
want of :appreciation of the inestimable services which hed
been rendered by the militia. (Hear.)
61r DE LACY EVANS sail his observations were not
dietated by any want of respect for the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, All he meant to convoy was the general