The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-08 00:00:00

THE St* LONDON, TUESDAY E V ENING, J ETNE 8, 1858.

eesen-e--. -------
(Lear, hear.) The right- hon.. gentleman spoke,of_
sible, that part of the question which has been openteht
din
am
far ,'rom denying that it is a most
contplexity and difficulty of this Inddikacna
le h has con-
prob!em ; but I think the right hon. question.lt an intricate
problem
founded two things in India,
' the administration of Indian affairs
namely, which are esTgeneutitall7adistinct—
d control over the
is to exercise a general direeticli n
hahon. gentleman has
and the cooposition of that body which in this country
ent. The rips bout which a states-
Indian Governe:
opened some of the widest questions vv..
told us of
Iled to deal. He has • nase of
man can possibly be 0
the necessity of giving an open career to the neti
India and of elevating them in the social scale ; he has
-
told us how social improvement is necessarily connected
with some degree of political power ; and with all that
he said on that subject, and with the high authority he
quoted to confirm his opinion, I fully and entirely con-
cur. But I agree with him also when he says—and
there 'he seemed to be replying to his own argument—
that the present is not the time to deal with those par-
ticular questions, because, at present, when feelings of
hostility exist against our Government on the part of the
native population, to raise such questions would only
exasperate the enraitp already existing, and, therefore,
that that was not a part of the Indian subject with which
it was possible to deal at the present moment. Again,
he told us of the relations between the military services
of India and England. He said that the relation
between the English and the Indian armies was not
noticed in any of the resolutions before the coun-
try. Undoubtedly it was not 'so noticed, and that
for precisely the reason which he alleges. There is
an inquiry at present going on, or about to commence,
on the subject of the reorganization of the native army
in India. A. larger and more general inquiry on the
relations between the army employed in India and the
Executive here will be carried on in this House. A full
investigation will be entered on in reference to that sub-
ject, and when that investigation is completed we shall
be prepared to give the result to the public. Bat the
right hon. gentleman throughout his argument proceed-
ed on an assumption in which I should regret if the
House were to share. He assumed, if we were to go
over the questions connected with the Indian adminis-
tration and attempt to settle any such questions per-
manently now, that so soon as the Bill which we shall
shortly bring in was passed the House would refuse to
reopen any part of the Indian subject, and a door would
be closed against all -future reform. I should deeply
regret if such were-likely to be the case ; but I am sure
that if at one and the same time, and in one and the
same measure, any Government were to attempt to
deal with all those questions touching the political
status of the native population, the relations between
the native and European armies, and those between the
Governor-General and the Executive here, the result
would be that no measure would be passed, and pro-
bably the whole session would be consumed by fruitless
discussion, while the recollections which it would leave
behind would probably operate powerfully to prevent
any future Minister or any Parliament undertaking to
deal with the subject in a comprehensive manner.
(Hear.) The right hon. gentleman has stated the ob-
jections which he entertains to the course proposed by
the Government, and I must state in a few words what
are the objections which I entertain to the course pur-
sued by him. The right hon. gentleman wishes to con-
stitute the present Court of Directors a Council for ad-
ministering the Government of India in the name of the
Queen, under the superintendence of a responsible
Minister of the Crown, until the end of the next session
of Parliament. In the first place and principally I object
to any such mode of proceedure because it seems to me that
you would place those who were to compose such a council
fuse singularly false and inconvenient position. (Hear.)
You would tell them that they were doomed, and their
term of power would saon expire, that no efforts they
could make, no energy they could show, and no public
spirit they could display would avail to prolong that
term of power. (Hear) Would not the inevitable
effect of placinn such men, however able and laborious',
in a position like that, be to a great extent to diminish
the zeal and energy with which the public business would
be carried on ? (Cheers.) But it is not merely as
re-
garde the directors themselves that I think the proposal
objectionable. You mast also look to the effect it would
proince on the public mind. (Hear.) When you say
a certain body whom you would intrust with consider-
able power is to lose that power at the end of a not very
lengthened term,—when you say openly or by implica-
tion, that the enly reason they are allowec to continue
in the possession of power for that short term is the diffi-
culty of finding a substitute, the effect must ne to impair
the annfidence which the public will feei in them, and to
discredit them before the-eyes both of England and of
India. (Cheers.) We have ourselves experienced the
inconvedience which is apt to arise when there occurs in
our Parliamentary Government a period* during which
Ministers only hold office until their successors are ap•
pointed ; and we have found that during two or three
weeks or even a month all public business comes to a
standstill, and great inconvenience has accrued to the
publica service; and I must say that, in my opinion,
we should bo creating a similar inconvenience, but upon
an infinitely larger scale and at a most dangerous tfme,
if we, by telling the Court of Directors that they might
hold their tenure of power until the end of next session,
were to make them a discredited body, while at the
same time we announced to them that the only reason
wbish induced ns to continue power in thoir hands was
our unwillingness at the present time to lay down any
scheme for the permanent Government of India. (Hear.)
If we were to adopt that coarse at this critical
period in our Indian affairs we should certainly discredit
the East India Company, for, while leaving in
their bands a great administrative authority, we should
nevertheless tell them that we intended, and that at no
very distant period, to deprive them of that authority,
and that because we disapproved of the system upon
which they wielded it. The intention of the right hon.
gentleman undoubtedly is to do away with that which
is thought by some to cause a great part of the inconve-
nience which has been complained of—l mean the ex'st-
ence of a doable government and the existing system of
separate offices. Noes, Ido not think that the plan sug-
gested in the resolutions of the right hon. gentleman
even effects the object which he wishes to effect. All
that the proposal of the right hon. gentleman amounts
to ic, not that the Board of Control ehould be abolished
—not that the President of the Board of Control for the
time being should assume the functians of President of
the Council in Leadenhall-street ; bat he proposes to re-
tain the two offices and the present system of communi-
cation between them, but to give the President of the
Board of Control, whenever he might be so inclined, an
optional power of going to Leadenhall-street, and being
when there, the Chairman of the Court cf Director,.
Now, looking at that substantive proposition, I cannot
conceive that it could effect any economy of time or sav-
ing of labour, or that it would be productive of any good
-to the public service. At present the chairman of the
Court of Directors is invested with great powers, and
consequently with great responsibility, and certainly his
authority would be impaired if be were only to be chair-
man when the President of the Board of Control did not
happen to come down and assume his function?. I do
not think that such a plan would conduce to the good
working of the department, but that is a question of de-
tail, and I do not wish to rest upon it ; but my objec-
tion to the proposal before the house plainly and briefly
is that it does not attempt any permanent settlement of
the question. When I tall: of a permanent settlement, I
don't mean to say that, when we have arranged the
question between Leadenhall-street and Cannon-row, we
shall have made any very great progress in reforming
local administration in India —a subject, doubtless,
which requires great care and attention ; but, so far as
regards that part of legislation for India with which we
at present propose to deal, I confidently hope that even
at this period, and notwithstanding the delays which
have taken place, we shall be able during the present
session to come to a permanent settlement of the ques-
tion. (Cheers.)
Sir C. LEWIS concurred with the noble lord the
President of the Board of Trade in the opinion that this
amendment was a repetition of the one brought forward
by the honourable member for the county of Durham. '
The motion was a dilatory one, and could lead to no
advancement in the question be,fore the committee. Bat
if these resolutions vtere agreed to, they would lead prac-
tically to very serious results. If the board of directors
were to act as a council, they must cease to act as direc-
tors, and must give up their independence of character.
If they were to place, as was proposed, the board of
directors in juxtaposition with the President of the
Board of Control, this would solve the whole question
which the house was "called upon to decide as to the
form and constitution of the proposed council. The
second resolution was not consistent with the first, and
e ouhl not be adopted if the first were agreed to. Ile
hoped, therefore, that the committee would not hesitate
were
to proceed with the resolutions before the house, which
hear., at)
H all events, practical and consistent. (Hear,
e said that
to deal with the that house was perfectly competent
if they were to whole
wait subject of Indian legislation, and
no more light wouliclnbtiel next year or the following year
confessed himself so far thrown on the subject. He
fromthinking that there was any
difficulty in the matter,
ho His only wonder was that
thought it was perfectly clear.
the constitution
h
of the
trusted
entEeaed
East
tlhnadtiaa Company
yh
rheafdorrmemawais remainedso
now ab long,
andto sweep it away.
Mr. LIDDELL did not think it ou!fp
l r to the amend-
mentoa to describe it as a mere method o
subject of Indian legislation. NV Was itt no postponing the
i
the amendment to bring the council of India undearuge
Tensible Minister ? The amendment involved very c;lnri-
derable change, but it was a change which was fout.ded on
safety. A great change had lately come over the
opinions of that house, and it was only now that they
were beginning to see the danger in which they might
be involved in entering upon Indian legislation. was
there ever a moment when the machine of Governam:A
was charged with a weight of duty so overrun as at the
present moment, and would it not be dangerous to st)p
it even for a moment ? In every scheme that had been
proposed the principle of a council was embraced. That
being the case, what more reasonable than the amend-
ment of the right hon. gentleman, which woeld continue
a council which had proved itself experienced and faith-
ful, The noble lord the member for Tiverton bad said
that there was a great deal in a name, and therefore he
proposed to introduce the name of the Qa:en. Ernst how
had the name of the Queen been introduced ? Why)
by the Oude proclamation. Would that forcibly inseere
confidence in the people of India ? The name of the
East India Board was well known in India, and there-
fere he should unhesitatingly give his support to the,
amendment.

Mr. DRUMMOND said his objection to no two
bills which had been before the hence wag, that they did
not touch the government of India. Thera had been
acne hocus pecu3 about the home government, but
what he considered as the government of India was that
which was beet for the people of India. He did not
.hank the country was well indtructed upon what had
ueen going on in the Indian legislatuie. There was pro-
found ignorance, too, as to.the conduct of the Engltsh to

------
the natives of India. He read the opinions of Sir F.
Shore, who stated -that the natives were treated by the
English with the utmost superciliousness. Few English-
men returned the salute of a native, and they never
spoke to them with civility. All servants, natives, were
treated with the greatest harshness by the English.
The origin of this was, that it was supposed to
be the best means of keeping up the dignity of the
English. The treatment by the English was tyran-
nical and brutal. All these statements were corrobo-
rated by Lord William Bentinck. Was it to be
supposed that these things did not rankle in the minds
of the natives ? The Italian maxim applied as
I much to India as anywhere else—" Vengeance sleeps,
-1, never dies," There was dissatisfaction enough in
bus
"se half a dozen rebellions. Was not torture
India r,,. -ant British province by the lower subor-
practised in es-
- -.vent? There could be no doubt
dinates of the Goe".!!"-
- , ,ssnial of Sir James Hogg,
of it, notwithstanding the - 4 eel What was the law
Mr. Mangles, and Mr. Elliot. ..- . e foreign lan-
applied to the natives ? Why, it was - :, .
guage, and was administered by foreign officials, _and
one of the panaceas for the government of India was to I
send out more English lawyers. The fact was India
was looked upon as a country to be exploited for the
civil service. If India was continued to be looked upon
as merely a country for plunder, we should assuredly
lose it ultimately. He thought it would be wise at once
to issue a proclamation in the Queen's name, and take
possession of Oude in her name. That would create
the belief in the native mind that the Government would
be carried on for the happiness of the people. -
Mr. CUMMING BRUCE had al ways been extremely
anxious that the Queen's name should be introduced
into the Government of India. He thought the first
Council for India should be the Council of the East
India Company. The noble lord had said that the
henna would stultify itself by adopting the amendment,
but he (Nlr. C. Bruce) denied that public expactatisn
would be much disappointed by delay. He could not
agree with the honourable member for Pontefract that
the East India Company had been treated with any dis-
respect either by the present Government or that of the
noble lord the member frit. Tivertor. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer had spoken of its labours in terms of
the highest commendation, comparing it with the great
Venetian Republic. He should cordially support the
amendment, and if it were rejected should press his own
which was kindred in spirit. (Hear, hear.) -
Mr. LO WE expressed himself at a loss to understand
the bearing of the amendment. Its terms were
vague, and it was difficult to ascertain the re-
lations which were to subsist between the Minister
and the Court of Directors in the new provi-
sional Government. The amendment proposed to
maintain the powers of the Board of Control. But how
could they be preserved without preserving the correla-
tive powers of the East India Company. The right hon.
gentleman proposed that despatches should first be sub-
mitted to a committee, and then be referred to the full
Court of Directors. This was the course at present ; but
i if repeated under this proposal how would that intolera-
ble delay now complained of be obviated 7 No ground
had been laid by the right hon. gentleman for his specific
scheme, or why a provisional government should be
adopted instead of a permanent one. Nothing bad been
advanced why delay was preferable to action. The only
reason urged in favour of the change was, that delay
would give an opportunity for procuring information on
the subject of India generally. The proposal of the right
hon. gentleman would aggravate instead of removing the
difficulties to be encountered ; his proposition was a tem-
porary measure, opening up a vast number of embarrass-
ing questions without settling any of them. It would be
better to face these difficulties manfully, and not sanc-
tion a provisional government., which would have neither
,he prestige of the old one nor anything to recommend
it in itself. (near.)
Mr. A. MILLS thought that in the face of the multi-
plicity cf amendments on the paper, brief speeches; would
be preferable to long ones, (Hear.) Without impugning
the grammatical accuracy of the amendments of the right
hon. gentleman, he doubted whether any clause could be
framed to carry out his intentions. He gathered from
the amendments that it was intended that the beard of
directors and the Board of Control should be so far amal-
gamated as tisat the evils of the double government
should be obviated. He could not see, however, how
these evils would be removed by enabling the President
cf the Board of Control occasionally to preside at the
meetings of the Council. (Hear, hoar.) He deprecated
delay in grappling with this question, believing the
same difficulties which had now to be met would be
rife two years hence. If the measure passed with the
amendments now proposed, it would still only be an ini-
tiatory step towards a scheme for the government of
India. He expressed his extreme reluctance in being
unable to support the proposition of the right hon. gen-
tleman, on the ground of the necessity for an immediate
and comprehensive legislation. (Hear, hear.)
Col. SYKES said the proposition of his right hon.
friend to call in the present board of directors to the aid
of the Minister was a very simple one. The administra-
tire capacities of the present board of directors bad been
sneered at, but 15 out of the 18 were intimately ac-
quainted with the affairs of India. This sneer, therefore,
might be sent to that limbo to which other paradoxes
uttered on this, question had been consigned. (A laugh.)
Urging the claims of the present form of government,
he maintained that theCourtof Proprietors A al a agar.
valve for the disoore,ent which might from time to time
ari.e in India, and which if dealt with in Pasliarnent
would be made the pivot fur party strife. Ho combatted
the statements of the hon. member for Surrey with re-
spect to the character of the European population in
India. If their conduct had been such as had been de-
scribed, they would have been chased out of India long
ago. If the boo. member for Surrey were to attend one
of the Addiscembe meetings, and the weekly meeting of
the committee, -he would find that the pupils were en-
joined in the strongest terms to not in a kind spirit to
the natives of India when they went out there. Parlia-
ment was about to change a form of government under
which 181 millions of the natives of India had been
ruled, but these millions bad never bean consulted in
the slightest manner on the subject of the patronage to
be exercize I under the new scheme of government. The
hoe, and gallant member read the opinions of two or
three native Indians on passing events in this country,
which had been recently forwarded to him. A Parsee, a
man of wealth and education, whose family had been con-
neeted with Bombay ever since its transference from the
Portuguese, declared to him, in a late communication,
that the English Parliament were proceeding in ignorance
of the real state of affairs in India, and expressed a hope
that the English Government would not, with regard to
India, follow the example of their colonial mismanage-
ment. This Parsee warned the Parliament of the danger
of interfering with caste, and recommended the English
Government to reform their own social regulations be-
fore meddling with those of India. Were not the people
themselves to be consulted, and was it not fair that the
wishes of the 120 mittens they were to legislate for
should be consulted ? Was that not necessary to con-
-1 ciliate them ? In India, before an act was passed, a no-
tice was given in the Government Gazette, and an interval
of three months was allowed that the desires of the people
eh old be ascertained. Why, then, should a question
afflicting their interests be passed hastily without con-
sulting them I If the population of India were consulted,
pine-tenths of them would be found to be adverse to the
proposed measures. He hoped they would consider this
point, and not take a course which would exclude further
discussion. Let time be given for distrust to subside.
Mr. BOVILL reminded the house that a resolution
had been passed that it was essential that there should
be some legislation for India, and members on both sides
concurred in that opinion. It was because the resolution
of Mr. Gladstone promoted delay that he opposed it.
It appeared impossible that any bill should pass both
houses after the resolutions bad bean discussed. The
first question for them to decide had been whether the
rule of the East India Company should continue, and it
had been agreed that they should proceed to legislate.
The principle had been affirmed by two Governments
and by a majority that there should be a council. The
principal difficulty was as to the constitution of that
council. He proceeded to analyse the several propos:- 1
tinns which bad been made. There would be an ample
opportunity for the opinions of the people of India to be
taken. He supported the original resolution.
Mr. D. SEYMOUR could not understand the argu-
ment that the tendency of the resolution of the right
hon. gentleman would lead to a calming of the pub-
lic mind in India. They had decided on a change, and
it would be injurious to adjourn the settlement of the
question for 18 months. Who was to answer despatches?
A divided authority would be a cause of great inconve-
nience. The hon. member for Aberdeen had said that
the press had unsettled the public mind in India. Did
not his speech unsettle their minds still more when he
said there bad been public meetings and that it was in-
tended to interfere with their religion ? Would he not
do more to calm it if he said that in the Legislature there
had been no such speeches ? They knew that there was
no authority above that of this house. Mnst they not
have seen in the debates in this house that we had no
disposition to an interference with their religion, and
that we were actuated by a Christian spirit ? The direc-
tore of the Eist India Company had not been actuated
by such a spirit. The people of India would not believe
that we, who were so devoted to our own religious liberty,
would interfere with theirs. He was sorry that there had
been an estrangement of late between the sepoys and
their officers. The house was pledged to legislation, and
he wondered that a motion was proposed so opposite to
the expressed opinion cf the house. We should show
the natives that we were determined and resolute, and
would not hastily discuss the question for the sake of
our recreation a month hence. He therefore hoped the
house would not n onsent to the adjournment.
The house then divided, when the numbers were—

For the original motion 265
For the amendment .• • 116
Majority —l49
THE INDIAN COUNCIL.
Mr. ROEBUCK then addressed the committee in op-
position to the council. He said—Were I to consult
only the probabilities of success in the proposition I
have to make, I sheull certainly be Counted, for I am
tolerably sure there will be an immense majority
rwßaurdt
wthazatytaprompeosiisti
,nno;nwewhicthhio
abgroaui ngshtti ft
rejected, but which afterwards became the creed of this
g.
were hfiarv:t
house. (Hear, hear.) Some years ago I contended for
a particular course being followed in our colonial
policy, and was always outvoted, but a time came
when that which had been so often rejected, almost
ith scorn, became the creed of the Colonial Minister.
(Hear, hear.) I am not daunted, therefore, at the pros-
pect of a large majority against me. (Hear.) This hou e
has resolved—first, thac the Government of India shalt
be transferred from the Court of Directors to the Crown;
.text it has decided that the power of the Crown shall be
t serelsed by a Miniter of State; and now it is pro-
pose to give to that Minister of State a council to aid

and counsel him. _ It is against this last proposition that
I now address the house. I must remind the house of a
distinction to which allusion has been made to-night, but
not sufficiently dwelt upon—l mean the distinction be-
tween the Government of India that is in England, and
the Government that is in India. With this last point
we have now nothing to do,--the resolution before us
concerns the Home Government of India only, and the
question we have to answer is, whether there shall be a
Secretary of State by himself alone, and responsible for
his own acts, or whether he shall be aided by a council.
I adhere to the first. I say that a single Secretary of
State, responsible for all his acts, and being himself his
own guide and counsellor, ought to be alone the Gover-
nor of India. hold this view, first, on account of the
mental and moral benefit which& tnau derives from act-
ing alone. He has a more distinct and pressing interest
in what he has to do than a man who shares his respon-
sibility with others, and therefore mentally and morally
he is a stronger man, and better able to carry on the go-
vernment with vigour. (Hear) I have beard it said,
". Why, under your plan, only fancy India governed by
the2'hon. gentleman the member for Northampton."
(A. laugh.) Well, we have seen India governed by the
right hon. gentleman the member for Northampton, and
governed without responsibility. Bat
d am told the days
of responsibility are over, and that we on't now deprive
Ministers of their heads, but of their places. (A. laugh.)
I have, however, seen three notable instances of the
results of responsibility. I have seen the Government
• of Lord Aberdeen turned out because the people of
England thought their honour was not safe in their
hands. I have seen the Government of the noble lord
the member for Tiverton turned out of power for the
same reason. I have seen the almighty power of this
from th' ethereal sky,
house h,,u_rl himheafrdolmonghifisapralainceg
With hideous ruin and combustion, down
To bottomless perdition."
(A. laugh.) I have seen, on this very business of India,
a President of the Board of Control driven from power
simply by the expression of opinion—not by a resolu-
tion—in this house and out of doors, and that within a
few weeks past. Shall any man tell me, then, that there
is no responsibility ? Aye, but it is said, there was at
that time, when he was so driven from power, a Board
of Directors. Does not everybody know that the Board
of Directors was at that time destroyed, and that the
very fact of his being responsible was because he acted
by himself alone ! And did he not say that he acted
by himself, without their consent and without consulta-
tion with them, and that he was answerable for his con-
duct? And did not the house and the country accept
that statement, and punish him for his conduct ? I
don't say the house or the country was right ; but what
I say is that, believing he was so responsible, they
punished him for his act. This is the only constitutional
responsibility in fact, and the milder manners of modern
times, which do not allow us to cut off the heads of Mi-
nisters—(a laugh)—by allowing us to displace them
make them responsible to us for their acts. But, it may
be said, a Council is necessary for the purpose of afford-
ing advice. Well, then, we have to consider the Coun-
cil which into aid this Indian Minister, first, as to the
men from whom it is to be derived ; next, as to the
manner of its election ; then as to its tenure of office ;
and again, as to its power. With respect to the men
from whom it is to be derived, I have in this house
spoken of the class who are generally called " Old
Indians." I am told that a large proportion of the men
who are to assist and advice this Minister of the Crown
are to be selected from that class of Old Indians. • The
right honourable gentleman the member for the
University of Oxford made upon nee a somewhat weak
joke. He said, "Tae hon. and learned gentleman takes
exception exactly to those men who have some means of
acquiring knowledge." I am going to speak of old In-
dians, but not of my own authority, and the right hon.
"gentleman must pardon me if I eay his authority in mat-
ters of Government is not possessed of any great weight.
(A laugh.) Invariably have I found the right hen, gen-
tleman opposing almost all the advances made by man-
kind since I have been in this house. • (Oh, oh.) I recol-
lect that, upon that very question of colonial adminis-
tration, among my most formidable opponents was the
right hon. gentleman. I think he also opposed the
free trade measure. But it is not for me to
eay that the right hon. gentleman has not many claims
to the admiration of this house. (Cheers.) He has a most
captivating eloquence, but he wants judgment to guide
it. (Laughter.) In fact, his mind is like a tangled web.-
It is a thing marvellous to look at, but utterly useless
for any practical purpose. (A. laugh.) I am going to put
against his authority that of a very different man, who
deeply dived into all human thoughts, who ransacked
human nature, in order to understand and guide it. I
mean Mill, the historian of British India. You are told
to consider the advantage you would derive from framing
a Council of Old Indians for the guidance of the Indian
Minister ; and I would have you recollect the mode in
which the Anglo-ludiap acquires knowledge, He goes
out to India a youth aid has very little power of acquir-
ing a knowledge of mankind. He studies a language or
two. He is segregated from his own class, and sent at
once to govern. Now, Mil', in the preface to his history,
discusses the question of the advantages which the his-
torian of British India would derive from going to In-
dia, and says that the powers of observation in every in-
dividual ate exceedingly limited, and it is only by com-
bining the observation of a number of individuals that
a c.onpetcnt knowlc,ige of any extensive subject can
be acquired. Now, let us recollect that our domi-
nions in India extend from the Himalayas to Caps Co-
rocrin. There are, I believe, in that space 30 different
nations, all speaking- very different languages, and all
having very different customs, as different as Italy is
from Danmark ; and I would suppose a traveller going to
Italy was called on to legislate for Denmark. You know
what that wouli mean. For the same reason a man who
had passed his life in the Punjab would be as unable to
legislate for Travancore as a man living in Naples would
be to legislate for Denmark. My hon. friend the member
for Surrey quoted opinions concerning the moral condi-
tion of gentlemen who have gone to India, but I have
only to do now with their intellectual character. Lord
Teigntnouth points out in emphatic language the diffi-
culty of acquiring a requisite amount of knowledge to
enable us to govern India by reminding his readers of
the magnitude of our acquisitions there, the character of
the people placed under our dominion, their difference of
language, their dissimilarity in other respects, and that
we began our rule in the country in ignorance of its
former government. I could also quote to the same end
the authority of Lord H. Bentinck, Sir H. Stachey, Sir
J. Malcolm, and other distinguished men—in short, that
of all the men of mind who have gone to India. I do not
mean to say that the mere going to India totally unfits
a man for governing India, but I say, that taking the
mass of men who have gone there, the mere fact of a man
having been in India gives him no greater power of go•
verning that country than he could have acquired by
study and reflection at home, and, in fact, not so much so
far as regards knowledge of the feelings and habits of the
people. Now, Sir, I come to the question, by whom is
the proposed Council to be selected ? It is said partly by
the Crown and partly by election. Now, if I know/ any-
thing of this house—and I have had a long experience in
it—l -am confident that the doctrine of ulection in this
matter will not be received—in short, that it will be
scouted ; and the real fact will be that the appointment to
this Council will be in the hands of the Ministers of the
Crown, for when we say that it will be in the hands of
the Crown, we mean that it will be in the hands of the
responsible advisers of the Crown. "Oh," but says the
right hon. gentleman " that will be an enormous power
to confer upon a Minister." Now, what power is it
proposed to confer on the Minister ? Why it is pro-
posed to corder on the Government of the day the power
of electing persons who will be screens to those who
elect them, and for. that reason I object to any one hav-
ing such power of election; but at the same time, if it
is determined to confer upon any one that power of elec-
tion, I think that the person who is responsible to this
house is as likely to he a good elector as any holder of
so much India stock. (Hear.) The right bon. gentleman
member f r the University of Oxford has proposed to
form the Council from the existing Board of Directors.
Now, the existing Board of Directors has been elected
by the holders of India stock, and I would ask the house
do you consider that gentlemen so elected would be
more responsible or would be better chosen than persons
chosen literally by this house ? I say literally chosen
by this house, because it is by this house that the Mini-
ster is chosen by whom the Council is to be chosen, and
therefore it is by this house, in the last resort, that the
Council would be chneen ; and I ask you if you confider
that holders of ladle stock form a better elective body
than this house? (Rear.) Oh, but it is said you are
putting into the hands of the Government of the day a
vast engine of corruption. Now, as regards the ques-
tion of the virtue of this house, in the first place I do
not think that the mere appointment of 10 or 12 persons
to hold office for six or seven years would afford a means
of corruption that this house could not withstand. Then
we are told that the appointments to all positions in the
army and civil service would be in the hands of the
Minister, and that that would exercise a. corrupt influ-
ence over this house, for that we could not resist the
blandishments of a Minister armed with such a power.
Now, if there is the least honest sincerity in this objec-
tion, the house will see at once how easily it is got rid of
by the mode which I should suggest. I would suggest
that all first appointments in India should be bestowed
upon the principle of fair and open competition.
' (wilouealdr,
havehear.)a
cDieeav,nootpleent,
honest competition. Say
me be misunderstood. Iii
there are 20 places to be given away.
Well,-
I would allow every man capable of making an ap
plication in writing to undergo the trial and be exa
mined. Let there be no pretence,
as there is now, of
compelling persons to beg to be placed on the list for
examination, bat let it be competent for every man who
is willing to do so to put his name down and be exa-
mined, even if there should be 1,000 competitors for the
2mOodyeacoafnotaolaffich;si.og Tthhaet, to my mind, is the only fair
r of corruption out of
tthheathwanodnsido,f Ithtehilsniki,nitsatkereps.arilnl
tion of the time f which the Council is to be appointed.
Icpiopnwle of competition, and
no
coma to the ques-
Some say that tile appointment should be fer life, others
for tin years, and (deers for six years. Now, the fact
of electing members cf the Council for six years would
deprive them of all responsibility, while at the sometime
the Minister for India would be an irresponsible Minis,
ter. - Depend upon it that if you adopt that principle
you will abolish all responsibility in the government of
India; if you give the Minister of the Crown the aid
and assistance of a Council you will take responsibility
from biro and destroy his power of governing India. I
haveos now
to
per•
n
be elected, and I come now to the question as regards
e
the powers which it is intended to give to the Council.
s bep elected, and over
andt h
the questions
persons by as
whom rregards
rtdhsey the
to
are
It is said by some that the connection between the
Minister and Oa Council ought to be something like the
connection between the Governor-General and his Coun-
cil, that he should take the advice of the Council, and
act upon it. Now, that would be to deprive the Minis-
ter of all responsibility, and I don't think that a majority
of this house would wish to see the establiAmeet of a

Council to control the Minister. The effect of such a
Council would be to shroud the Minister when in the
wrong, and to hamper him when in the right—(hear)—
for if wrong his responsibility would be taken away, and
when right he would bo afraid to act in cases where it
alight be said that he was acting contrary to the opinions
of 10 or 12 persons associated with him. I know that
such would be the case from what has occurred
since I have been a member of this house. We have
been told that the President of the Board of Con-
trol is really the Governor of India, and that is the
fact, and that he may do as he pleases. Now, I upon
one occasion moved a vote of censure upon the President
of the Board of Control, and what course was adopted
by the East India Directors who were members of this
house ? Time out of mind I had beard them say that
they had nothing whatever to do with the war in Aff-
ghanistan, and yet wbenl moved a vote of censure upon
the President of the Board of Control in connection with
that war, all the directors who were members of this
house voted against me. Now, that is a very striking
fact, and I may say that they have upon all occasions
shielded themselves under the system of non-responsibi-
lity. I remember an attack which I made upon Sir J.
Hobhouse and the noble lord the member for Tiverton,
and upoii that occasion two or three of the members of
the Court of Directors spoke and voted against me.
Still, then I ask, what could be the responsibility felt or
acted upon by the Council? To connect the Minister to
whom the government of India may be intrusted with
such a Council would be like putting wine into water,
an operation by which both the wine and the water are
spoilt. (Hear, and a laugh.) Having stated ray objec-
tions, and the ground fur them, I do not wish to detain
the house, but there is one point to which I wish to re-
fer. I know that I shall have very high authorities
against me, and, among others, that of the noble lord
near me (Lord J. Russell) ; but the noble lord, like the
right hon: gentleman the member for the University of
Oxford, is no great authority, to my niind, in matters
of legislation. (Hear.) From the very outset of my po-
litical life I have found the noble lord in opposition.
He always puts me in mind of what we lawyers term "a
case lawyer." He knows very well what has been ddne,
but he never knows what ought to be done. (A. laugh.)
He is a capital pilot in the shoals and cross-currents of
party Wei but put him out into the open sea and he has
neither compass nor chart. (Renewed laughter.)—There-
fore, air, having found the noble lord so often in opposi-
tion, it is with some satisfaction that on this occasion I
see him in opposition to myself. In fact, if upon the first
blush of this proposal he had thought I was right, I
should have been disposed to think I was wrong. This is
a frank avowal. (Laughter and cheers.) I hope the
noble lord will not take it amiss that I have make this
statement, lam quite sure that his good nature and
good feeling will go with me. (A. laugh.) I move,
that the word " Council" be omitted.

Lord STANLEY'.—Although the question of Coun-
cil or no Council is one of the most important which can
be raised in the course of these discussions, it is one with
regard to which the argument liesin a very narrow com-
pass. (Hear, hear.) There are only two grounds upon
which objections can be taken to the appointment of a
Council. One of them was not noticed by the hon. and
learned member, and I think the committee will not
attach much importance to it, I mean that of expense.
I do not apprehend that where the question of the
efficiency of the home government of India is concerned
the committee will be inclined to attach much import.
ante to the Expenditure of 10,0001. or 15,0001. more or
less. The whole question, therefore, turns upon the
point—whether toe appointment of a Council will, as
tee hon, and learned member contends, diminish the re
sponsibility of the Minister. (Hear, hear.) Is the re-
sponsibility of the Minister necessarily incomplete if
there is a Council to assist him ? That, I apprehend,
depend upon the relations to be established between the
Minister and the Council. In the main those relations
are very simple. The Council is bound to give advice,
and the Minister is bound to hear, but he is not bound
to take it. It is for hire to decide whether he will take
or rek_mt it, and whether he takes it or rejects it he will
equally act upon his own responsibility. But then it is
said that if this Council is composed of persons eminent
for their knowledge, of Indian affairs he will shelter him-
, sel under the authority of their opinions. My answer
to that is, that the Minister will net have it in his power
to shelter himself more under the opinions advanced
by eminent persons being members of his Council
than he would if they did not stand in that relation
to him. (Hear, hear.) No doubt any Minister whose
measures were attacked would be very glad to bring
f irwsird in his defence the opinions and authority
of men eminent as Indian statesmen. That is a
desree of shelter which he would obtain from the autho-
rity of such persons, whether they era his colleagues in
administration or not, but any other protection it is ex-
pressly provided that he shall not receive. What then
is this council intended to do ? To supply that special
departmental knowledge which it is utterly impossible
that any public man trained in the ordinary school of
English administration CV .1 possess upon purely Indian
questione. (Hear) And now let me ask the committee
what will be the result of negativing the appointment of
the Coo ell? Does any member of this house really
imagine that, upon any one of tho-se mnl farious ques-
tions which come before the D rectors of the East India
Company and the Board of Coal.rol, the Minister will
depend upon his own exclusive and unassisted judgment
formed simply upon tea ling the papers, and a knowledge
of the facts ? Why, everyone knows that be can't. He
must rely to corns extent—that, I admit, is inevitehle—
,
upon the advice which he recrives from his Council. If
he does not, ha will have to depend upon that of other
persons who will be ceencillors in fact, though not in
name—upon the advice of the perinaneet officiele of his
department. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member says
that the members of this Council will, in reality, be irre-
sponsible Ministers for India. I answer, that their
position in that respect will be in no respect different
from that of those other irresponsible advisers whom
every head of a department habitually and necessarily
consults upon matters of departmental knowledge of
which he has no previous official experience. The only
difference is that by placing these gentlemen in a more
eminent position, by bringing them more before the
public, you will obtain for that branch of the service
men of high reputation, who have filled offices of greater
distinction than you could place in a position of direct
subordination to the Minister. I have not heard it from
the hon. and learned genteeman, but elsewhere I have
frequently heard _a parallel drawn bet ;wee the India's
administration and that of the Colonial department;
and I will for one moment ask the house to inquire
how far these two administrations resemble each
other. Under- the Colonial depart neat there
are altogether about 7,000,000 of persons, of whom you
may say that, speekieg roughly, 3,500,000, the popula-
tion of British North America and Australia, manage
their own affiairs with very little reference to the depart-
'rm. • int at home. Under the Indian department you have,
I will not venture to say what number of persona, be-
cause I never heard two statements on the suhject,
either in this house or out of it, which agreed, but putting
it ate very moderato estimate, if I were to say 140,000,000
that would be 20 times the number who are under the
CelonialDepartmentmeni that under a Government which
13 of a very absolute kind. ([[ear.) Then the hon. and
learned gentleman raises agreat objection to those whom
ho calls -‘ 01J Wiens," and assumes that they must ex-
clusively compose this Council. He said that there might
be eminent men_among their number, but that the mass
of the :e knew very little more of Indian affairs than if they
had never been in the country. I will not stop to inquire
how much of that proposition is true and how much- it is
ex sgs,rereted, a,ndfor this reason, that those whom we hops
to inclide in the proposed Council wid be not the mass
of those who have served in India, but those whom the
hon. and learned gentleman himself admits constitute
the eminent exceptions. We have heard the worst and
the blackest side of the Anglo-Indian character stated
to-night, and I dare say there may be, as applied to a
small fraction of those who set ve in India, some truth
in the description ; but we must not forget that the ser-
vice which he has so criticised has in former times pro-
duced men like Malcolm, Munroe, and Elphinstone. It
can hardly be said tbat men like Sir John Lawrence, Sir
H. Lawrence, if he had lived, and Sir James Outrarn,
whose names are at this moment before the poeple of
England, are incapable of offering advice to an Indian
Administration. (Hear.) The special gain of surround-
ing the Minister for Indian affairs with men of this class
will be that you will obtain, what you can cot in uo other
way, that kind of knowledge which comes from personal
contact with the natives of India, and personal experience
of what are their habits and feelings. There is, I hope, no
fear that any one undertaking the business of this de-
partment will come to it with any other than good in-
tentions, or any than a sincere desire to promote the
welfare of the natives of India ; but, unluckily, when
you are dealing with alien races, differing very much
among themselves, more mischief may be done with the
most sincerely benevolent intentions, and by carrying
out plans which are abstractedly good, than perhaps in
any other way, or by any other error into which an
Indian statesman is likely to fall. (Hear, hear.) Again,
the hon. and learned member said that each member of
the Council will only represent some one particular part
of India, and therefore his special knowledge will be
quite useless eel applied to questions affecting any other
part of the country. This is to some extent true, and
it is a very fine, and to my mind a conclusive argument
against unduly limiting the Lumber of the proposed
Council. (Hear, hear.) You do regains to have, if
possible, each Presidency and each department of the
pudic ssrvice in India represented in any Council
which you are to constitute; but on that point I would
jest observe that it may very often Irippen that some
persons will be competent as regards more than one
part of India, and in more than one department; be-
cause if you look into tee career of most of this eminent
men who have served in Lithe, you will find tint they
have not served ail the time in one branch of the ser-
vice, or in one part of the country, but have been
transferred from one poet of difficulty to another, some-
times in one part of India and eoinetimes in auother,
according as the pressure and emergency of the public
service was greatest. Now, as to patronage, I shonid
not.prop:ne to constitute a Council simply for the pur-
pose of absorbing a certain amount of patronage tveich
could net be otherwise disposed of, but there being other
reieesns for its creation, I think it is worth while to
con-
sider how materially its existence will assist youlikrint
he
settlement of that difficult part of reuestio.h.n
of
of only two mods of dealing with ten poin England,
tent portion do the
Lydian patronage which has to be exercised
and which is inainlymilitary. Either yeumust vest 'tall in
the Minister—a course which on his account is very m uch
to be deprecated, and to which this house would het
readily assent—or you must open it altogether to inn In-
tellectual and literary composesion,—a mode of pro-
cedure excellent, I t!jril:, as regaris the civil service,
and one which I cordially sup!erred when its introduc-
lien was proposed
.by the riglit her. gentleman opposite
in 1853, and when on many sides it yeas etrenueuely op-
posece—a mode of preceedure applicable also, I doubt •

not, to the scientific branches of any service, whether
civil or military, but one upon which, I think, you
cannot so implicitly and universally rely when it is a
question of giving away those simple military appoint.
meats for which really one must acknowledge that high
intellectual qualifications are not those particularly re-
quired. I am Mr from saying that open competition
should not be introduced in the Indian service. I only
request the committee to consider how little experience
we have of that principle, how much it is atilt an ex-
periment—that it is an experiment of which in a few
years more we shall be able to see the results as exhi-
bited in the working of our civil setvioe ; and then I ask
them whether it is not premature, whether it would not
be trusting too mach to theory, to say at once and in
one sweeping measure, that the sole mode of entering
upon the non-scientific branches in India should be after
undergoing an intellectual and scientific examination. I
believe it to be a good and sound principle, but, like all
good and sound principles, it may be pushed too far.
(Hear.) I think, then, if there are objections to at once
throwing open the whole patronage, if not the only
mode, still the most convenient way to deal with the
difficulty is to increase the responsibility of those who
administer it. They will be men—if the Council be con-
stituted as we hope it will be—who will he perfectly in-
dependent of the Minister of the day or of any Minister,
—men with no desire for jebbery—men whose habits
and inclinations will lead them to consider alone the
public advantage. Ido not see any more satisfactory
mode of disposing of the patronage. These are the
grounds upon which I oppose the hon. and learned
gentleman's proposition. Whether you style them
councillors or clerks, there will always be persons
permanently employed in that department, whose
advice every Minister will at least feel bound se-
riously to consider. In that way we got .rid of the
patronage difficulty; and I feel that if you constitute a
council, as you may, with a due admixture, tempering
the Indian with the neutral element, you will accomplish
the end we all have in view, (Cheers.)
Mr. C. BRUCE wished to make ono remark with re-
gard to an observation of the hon. and learned ;',ember
for Sheffield. The hon. member referred to Pee Affghan
war in support of his views, but the facts W'ere a complete
refutation of his argument. Just before 'the Affghan war
broke out Lord Heytesbury was aleneeinted to the govern-
ment of India by the late Sir R. ?eel. The Government
which succeeded Sir R. Peel h'ecught fit to cancel that ap-
pointment and to appoiuf an estimable and well-inten-
tioned noblemad in hie
P •
lace That appointment was made
solely on party grrthings, and from the want of administra-
tive abilitys o i the part of the well-intentioned nobleman
so appoiw"tu sprung the Affghan war.
The, amendment was put and negatived without a
THE COURT OF DIRECTORS AS THE COUNCIL.
Mr. LINDSAY then moved to leave out the words after
" appointment," and to insert " and that the Court of
Directors be the first council for India." He was of opi-
nion that the executive of India should be in the hands of
the Secretary of State; but the East India Company hal
proved such able administrators, and their land and sea
transport service was so well managed, that he thought
they should remain the first council for India. If his pro-
position wore adopted it would get rid of clause 6,7,
and 8.
Lord STANLEY said he did not dissent from the com-
pliment which the hon, gentleman paid to the present Court
of Directors, for whatever faults might be found with the
system on which the Indian Government had been carried
on, he never said a word which was not friendly to
those who administered that system. (Hoar, hear.) But
ho thought the motion of the hon. member was prema-
ture, for the committee had not yet settled for how long
a period the office was to be held. Some were to be held
for life and others of a longer or shorter period, and it
would not bo right for the Government or for the house to
say, we offer you these offices, but we cannot tell you
whether or not you are to hold them for life, or for a term
of years. In 1833 the vested right of the Court of Direc-
tors would cease altogether, and though he would not bind
himself by any pledge, if the nomination was left in the
hands of the Crown the Government would not be pre-
cluded from accepting the very valuable assist Ince of some
of those who now carried on the government of the East
India Company. (Hear.)
"Lord J. RUSSELL said he wished to say a few words on
the general course of proceeding rather than the motion be-
fore the house. He should suggest that at this period of
the year, it would be advisable, after agreeing to the prin-
cipal resolutions, to proceed to a bill. (Hear, hear.) With
that view he wished to state that he should propose not
only the statnlment ofhvidon.he hal gi you notice, that the
council should not consist of more than twelve, but he
would also propose that the whole be appointed by tho
Crown. The resolutions of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer did not fix the time for which the members of the
council should bo appointed ; but if the noble lord wished
he could raise that question on hie motion. Then there
was the question of patronage, which was an important
one. If they had these few points settled, ho thought it
would be.desirable to proceed by bill, without waiting to
go through the whole of the resolutions. He agreed. with
the noble lord that the Crown should be at lt'oerty to
avail itself of the ability of any members of she present
Court of Directors. He should state wha's ho thought
ought to be the whole constitution of the, council. (Hear.)
Lord DUNKELLIN bore tostimmeg from personal ex-
perience, to the efficiency of the land transport service in
India. (Hear.)
Sir H. WILLOUGFIBy said the real question was,
what power the council was to have ?
Lord STANLEY snit the proposition for shortening the
resolutions was one which it was the intention of his right
hon. friend ',Ale Chancellor of the Exchequer to have pro-
poseth 1.-ierhaps it would be convenient if he were to state
that the government were agreed that the council should
Consist of not less than 12, but that did not include the
Secretary of State. (Cries of "Not more than 12.")
Mr. C. BRUCE said he ha I a proposition that the coun-
cil should not consist of less than 24.
The motion of Kr. Lindsay was then negatived without
a division.
Lord STANLEY said he was willing it should stand that
the council rheeld ronsitt of 12.
Mr. ROEBUCK sate that " not less than 12" might
an that the council was to consist of 100.
Col. SYKES moved that the chairman report progress.
(Hear, hear, and oh.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that as
the committee seemed disposed to adopt the resolution, he
hoped the hon. gentleman would not press his motion.
THE NUMBER OF COUNCIL.
Lord PALMERSTON said that many hon. members
might think that 12 was too large a number.
e—Lord STANLEY, in reply, said that many also thought
that 12 was too small a number.
Col. SYKES said he should divide the committee if he
had not an opportunity of proposing that the number
should be 13.
The motion for reporting progress was then put and
neigatiVed.
Mr. T. BARING said the change which the government
seemed disposed to adopt was a most serious one. The re-
solution proposed that the council should consist of not
more than 13 nor less than 12 members, the number to be
decided according to the duties of the council, but no inti-
mation had been given what those duties were to be—whe-
ther the members were to be clerks or advisers. The go-
vthere9irffioepon
aint without any notice or intimation of a change in
wished to carry into effect a complete change
in the system. That the government should, after having
deliberately made a propositioo, make so sudden a change,
was an inconsistency for which he could not account.
(Cheers,) It would be better to defer the limitation until
tht duties of the council were defined.
The CFIANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER thought his
hon, friend had misunderstood the character of the resolu-
tion. The object of the resolution was not to obtain a de-
finite decision but to elicit, the opinion of the house upon
the point. The government thought there ought to be a
council and not an inconsiderable council, and asked the
house to say whether it should not be less than 12 nor more
than 18. It was necessary to arrive at some result in order
to place a bill on the table which wool) contain a definite
conclusion. It appeared to bs the opinion of the committee
that it would be desirable to fix the number of the council
at 12. (" Hear, hear," and " No, no,") It would a lvance
the progress of the measure to come to a decided resolution
on the subject,
Mr. V. SMITH was of opinion that the number ought
to be defined in the tell, and that the committee ought to
confine itself to saying that the number should not be more
than 12. (Laughter.)
Mr. C. BRUCE could not agree with the Chancellor of
the Exchequer that the opinion of the committee was in
favour of fixing the number at 12. He thought 13 was the
least number that ought to be adopted. If the proposition
before the committee should be adopted it would preclude
him from proposing that the number be 18.
Lord PALM ERSTON said the question before the com-
mittee involved a most important principle. It was
neither more nor less thee this--whether, when the change
took place, the government of India should take place in
London or in India. If the details of the government of
India were to be transacted in London, the council ought
to be a largo one ; but if the interference of the govern-
ment in London was to be restricted to narrow limits, a
much smaller number would be more convenient. It was
natural that a trading company should exercise a close
supervision ovtr all its transactions in India. But.
that was not the manner in which parliament considered
the dependencies of the crown ought to be governed,
and if parliament thought the duties of the council
should be cenfined to general matters and not to Istalls,
a large council would be troublesome, and a small one
numbermuchm ohree convenient.thought it Insteaduld b e betterof
to lattemptingeave ttothe
fix
numberthe
to le e
boon fixedfully
thecn
sdbiil
red. after
(Hear.)
ofrupctions of the council
hail
RUSSELLolnoble
friend
nadg agreed
din
Etahl
me ge
re
snteorna)l.
hisdoLtvonrdbyj.
great quantity of details had been gone through in this
country. The change now proposed could not take effect
for some time to come, and if there should be a small
council at first, there might be such a mass of paper that
it would be almost impossible to deal with them. Ho
thought the proposal of the noble lord (Stanley), that the
council should consist of 12, a very good one, and that the
crown ought to have the power of diminishing the number
to ten or eight. (Hear.)
Mr. C. BRUCE said the council would be a kind of court
of appeal in Indian affairs, and that the business could not
be carried on with a less number than 18.
Mr. T. BARING appealed to the justice of the Govern-
ment to consider this question, which was a most serious
one. They had agreed to reduce the number of the council
to 12 without any notice or explanation whatever. On the
decision of the committee on this point depended the ques-
tion whether the power of the government in India should
bo increased and the directin and supervision of the Go-
vernineut at home should be diminished. There had boon
no discussion as to the exact number ; it was to have been
supposed that the Government, having matured the reso-
lution, were prepared to abide by it, and if they wore
weir), to reduce the slumber, he trusted they would allow
time for discussion. (idetr.)
Mr. P. O'BRIEN considered the Governmoat were in an
nub ;ppy position between the hen, member for Hunting-
don, an old member of their party, on one side—(question)
—and the nobly lord the member for the city of London,
wh,) had got them out of the scrape before, on the other.
(Load cries (.f " Q:te2tien ") lie was spcalcin,g as to the
constitution of the council, a most important subject, and
hon, gentlemen had no right to call "Question." "Cries
of " Q uesti " and "Divide.")
Sir G. GREY thought the committee ought not to lee
called on to fix the nernishr until they knew the duties of
the council, and' heir it was to be composed. He would
suggest to the night hon. gentleman to omit all reference '
to the number, and leave it to be decided in committee on
the bill.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no
doubt he would facilitate the passing of the resolution by
adopting the suggestion of the right hon. blronet ; and if
he were to treat ail the other resolutions the same way he
might pais theta that; vening ; but the result would be,
they would have to renew all the discussion during the

progress of the bill. The resolution had been prepared
with a view to a scertain the feeling of the house. He be-
lieved that was clearly expressed in favour of 12; and he
was bound to say that after full investigation the govern-
ment were clearly of opinion that that number would be
sufficient, He would ask the committee what chance there
was of carrying out their views unless they endeavoured
on every occasion to come to some definite conclusion
After the appeal of the hon. member for Huntingdon, be
would not press the committee to decide at once as to the
number, but he trusted hon. gentlemen would not force
them to report progress unless they bona fide intended to
raise the question on themext night. He trusted that the
next evening the committee would settle the question se
to election or nomination, in which case they would soon
be able to introduce the bill.
Sir C. WOOD could not understand how the right hen-
gentleman had arrived at the conclusion that the opinion
of the house was in favour of the number l 2; he had been
in the house since half-past four, and had not heard any-
thing to justify such conclusion. The house was not in a
position to fix any precise number ; they ought to leave
it out altogether, or leave it between certain limits.
Colonel SYKES and Lord J. RUSSELL rose together.
There were loud cries for the latter, but Colonel MSS
persisted, amidst cries of "divide," and " question." Be
protested against the conduct of the government in at'
tempting to fix the number after many members interested
in the subject had left the house : from eighteen yearn'
experience he could say 15 was few enough.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if the discussion was to be
renewed he should certainly persist in his amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as the '
hour was so far advanced he would move to report pro'
gross. (Hear, hear.)
[The moment the right hon. gentleman made this state-
ment there was a general rush of members from the house.]
The CHAIRMAN, however, put the question, that the
word " more " he inserted in the resolution in place of the
word " less," and decided that the " noes" had it.
The CH te:NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved theb
the chairman report progress.
Le'rd A. V. TEMPEST asked what the amendment iven
t 1 at had been put, which few hon. members understood.
Lord PALMERSTON suggested that if the Government .
intended to make any changes in the resolutions they
I should state them beforehand.
The CFANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that,,
any chang3 in the resolutions proposed by the Government
would be stated beforehand. As to the doctrine of the
noble lord, that no changes were to be made in resolutions
without notice, he would find it very difficult to caul
that out.

Lord PALMERSTON only wished to consult the conve-
nience of the house, and had hid down no such doctrine.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the hoot
resumed.

The house will again go into committee on Friday night; •
The Hainault Forest Bill was read a third time and
passed.

FRIENDLY _SOCIETIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion of Mr. S. ESTCOURT, this bill, which NO!
intended to remedy a defect in the working of the present
act, was read a second time.
The Titles of Lamd (Scotland) Bill was read a second
time.

The order of the day for the Clerks of Petty Sessions
(Ireland) Bill was discharged.
The Markets and Fairs (Ireland) Bill passed through
committee pro jorma.
NISI PRIUS COURT (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. CRAUFURD made some objections to its details,
and urged it should not be proceeded with at that hour.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said tis!',';
no Government would press the second reading of a
bi
at one o'clock in the morning, if it was objected to, ant%
the hon. gentleman had stated his objection to going 01
it would have been postponed at once, and he might 110
been spared his ob,ervationp.
The bill was then postponed till Monday.
THE VACCINATION (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
MARIII t.GE LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
The second reading of this bill was postponed nil"^"
Monday next.

COPYHOLDS.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL laid on the table a
for amending the law as to copyholds.
The bill was read a first time.
via
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACTS AMENDNJA--
BILL.
Mr. HENLEY brought in a bill to amend the joint.
stock Companies Acts 1850 and 1857, and the Joint-stog
Companies Act 1857.
The bill was read a first time.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and to
houso adjourned at a quarter past one.