The Sun.
London, England, 1867-04-22 00:00:00

Trades' Unions.

In The San of Saturday the first part of the
evidence of Mr. R. Applegarth, the secretary of
the Amalgamated Society of Carpenters, before
the Royal Commission on Trades' Unions was

given. That and the following evidence was given
before Sir W. Erie (chairman), the Earl of Lich-
field, Sir E. W. Head, K.C.8., Mr. H. Merivale,
C. 8., Mr. J. Booth, C. 8., Mr. Roebuck, M.P., Mr.

T. Hughes, M.P., and Mr. F. Harrison.
After the evidence on piecework already given in
the Sun, the witness was examined by Mr. Roebuck

with regard to a rule in the society to the effect that
any man who upbraided another for coming back to
his work on being declared by the Executive to be
in the wrong w.ts to be fined. The witness ex-
plained that a man might consider himself in the
right on any question, and would appeal to the
Exe:mtive, who might say, " You are in the wrong,

and not your employer." " That man would go
back to his work, or should do so. Now" (and the
point deserves attention) " if there were a member
in the same shop who upbraided him for coming
back, that would be a finable offence according to
the rule just read." It was thus left open to men
to say and d) what they liked in cases where men
used their own judgment in resuming or continuing
work.

The question, a very wide one, as to the organi-
sation and the results of strikes was gone into, on
an examination by Mr. Harrison and Mr. Hughes.
Mr. Harrison asked, " On what principle does the
Executive proceed when it considers the desirable-
ness or the reasonableness of an application to strike?
What data have you for examining the state of
trade, and on what principles do you come to a de-
cision ?" The witness said, "We have before us the
monthly reports, compiled out of returns which are
carefully filled in by the branch secretaries all over
the country, sent to the general office, and then com-
piled by myself and issued again to the branches,
stating the condition of trade in each locality and the
Dumber of members unemployed. These are carefully
preserved from year to year. In addition to that we
Lave a table of statistics as to the rate of wages they
are receiving, and the number of hours they are
working for those wage; and the general conditions
of their work. These statistics are referred to, and
they are compared with the price of provisions and
the conditions under which other branches are work-
ing. We have a correct record month after month
and year after year of the state of trade in any given
town. We will take, for instance, Liverpool. We
have a record which has been kept ever since the
society has been in existence, telling us how the
trade has been in Liverpool each month during that
time, and we know the rate of wages that the men
have received, and the number of hours they have
had to work for them. When they apply for leave
to solicit an increase of wages we say, Liverpool is
working under such conditions ; what is Sheffield
doing ? what is Manchester doing ? what is London
doing ?' And then we consider the question whether j
Liverpool has got its fair share of wages when com-
pared with other towns." Mr. Harrison—" When j
you say the state of trade, does that mean the price
that the article is fetching ?" Witness—" No; lam
referring particularly now to whether trade is brisk
or dull in our particular line." Mr. Harrison—" Does
not the price that work is fetching afford you the
indication of what ought to be the rate of wages ?"
Witness—" We have no means of knowing what
price our employers' work is fetching." Mr. Hughes
—" You take the cases where the men in your trade
are well employed to guide you in your decision ?"
Witness-4 Yes." Mr. Harrison—" Have you any

means of ascertaining what is the amount of demand
for your labour, what is likely to be required by the
public, by contractors, and so for ?" Witness—" Yes

we have the Builder and other very excellent news-
papers which give accounts of tenders and large jobs,
and if there is any doubt at all on the question, two
disinterested parties (or one, as the case may be) are
sent down to ascertain what jobs are going on in the
neighbourhood, and to make the fullest investigation
into the state of trade, so as to know whether the.
men are really asking what is reasonal)le, and
whether they are pretty unaaimous in what they
are asking." Mr. Ilarrison—" Can you bring any-
thing to show whether strikes have been more fre-
quent or less frequent since the time that your
society has been in vigour, as compared with the
time when it was not in full operation, or as between
districts where your society has not many branches
compared with districts where it is strong in
branches ?" Witness—" As far as my experience
goes, strikes have been rather more frequent, but on
a very small scale, during the last four years. I
have not ascertained accurately what strikes there
have been outside of our own society ; but, taking
the past ten years previous to the existence of our
society, I think that certainly, so far as I am able
to judge, there would be more strikes then than
DOW ; yet during the last four years they have been
frequent, but of very short duration." Mr. Harri-
son--" Can you compare the strikes in districts to
which your society does not extend or in which
similar societies arc not in existence with those in
districts where your society is strong ?" Witness—
" We have no means of getting accurate informa-
tioa. Generally speaking, men not in association
accept terms less favourable than the men in asso-
ciation." The witness then went on to show, from
the report of the society, the effects of combination
in raising wages and in lessening the hours of labour.
During the past year " in no less than 52 towns had
the combination caused advances of wages varying
from BJ. to 45." a week to each man, and in thirty
different towns the members had obtained a reduc-
tion of the hours of labour. Mr. Roebuck was told,
in answer to a question, that facts were taken as
proofs of the real advantage of the society, and he
asked, " You do not know the effect that the so-
ciety has had upon the employers I suppose?" and
the witness answered "No ; in a selfish world the
employers look out fur their own interests as well
as- we for ours." The witness further acknow-
ledged, in answer to Mr. Roebuck, that the
fact that the society was doing what was favourable
towards the members was not to be taken as proof
that it was doing what was favourable towards the
public. Sir W. Head questioned the witness as to
the interests of labour and capital, and the latter
acknowledged that the interests of the men de-
pended upon the amount of capital employed in the
trade, and that this depended upon the profit made
by the employer. Sir William then asked, " There-
fore your interests may be affected indirectly through
the employer, although the direct benefit is gainel
by the workmen ?" The witness replied, " Yes ;
but 1 would ask what we should do in the event of
all the rest of .the trades getting an advance of
wages and the pricy of things going up, if we were
to stand still?" The witness was then questioned
with respect to the fact of woodwork for buildings,
such as doors and sashes, being manufactured
abroad and brought to this country. He said he
understood that there was a great quantity of this
work lying at the east of London, but he said " the
employers themselves are fighting shy of it." He
was asked by Mr. Roebuck, if it were better and
cheaper than English work, whether the men would
oppose the introduction of it into this country, and
he answered, " Not in the least. If they can pro-
duce it better or cheaper abroad, let them do so.
I say that either they are doing it at starvation
prices, or we must go there ourselves and manufac-
ture it and have a share in the advantage." At a
ect was again spoken of, and
further stage the subj
the witness acknowledged that he could not say the
foreign work was inferior to English work ; but he
said he had heard that it had been offered at a ridi
culously low price, but he believed this was owing
to it having been imported in a ship which became
waterlogged, and that woik was damaged. lle
believed that the work caine from Gottenburg, and
he had heard that the price of provisions had doubled
in that place since the work had been imported.
The
very delicate subject of "rattening" was then
entered upon. Ile said, speaking of his own society,
that he had never known a case of intimidation, but
acknowledged that he had heard of such cases among
members of the General Union, another and larger
society in the trade. Mr. Harrison—" has it ever
come to
your knowledge since you have been secre-
tary of tiaa society that any practice analogous in
any way to that of rattening at Sheffield has been
practised in your trade ?" Witness—" Yes." Mr.
llarrisou—" What is the practice?" Witness—

" As far as my experience of trade matters goes the
rattening that we have heard of only in reference to
the Sheffield trades is common to every trade, and
what is meant by rattening is that if a man renders
himself objectionable to those he is working with
they try to make it unpleasant to him in some way
or other. I will mention an instance of rattening
that took place at a large job at Trollope's, in Pim-
lico. Two men were discussing over their break-
fast, and one struck the other. On that occasion
the other men agreed among themselves to put the
man in Coventry' for a month who had struck the
other—that is to say, not to speak to him at all.
Every man on the job pledged himself under the
penalty of a fine not to speak to him, and they car-
ried out their decision. That is the mildest form of
rattening, and that is common to all trades. Again,
it is the practice in many trades to remove a man's
working tools, not to steal them. Now that is a
thing which 1 do not sanction or believe in at all,
and it is a thing that is very fast dying out, but it
is only fair to the Sheffield trades to say that it is
not peculiar to them. I believe these practices are
to be found among the trades that may be considered
the most highly educated trades." The Earl of
Lichfield—" You have a great many offences men-
tioned in your rules as subject to fines ; have you
any fine for a man acting in the way you have de-
scribed, using viole'ice, or making himself dis-
agreeable in any way to another man with whom
he may be working ?" Witness—" We do not
take cognisance of the conduct of members, so
long as it has not any connection at all with
the matters pertaining to the society, unless it
be that they are guilty of felony." Mr. Roe-
buck—" Striking a man in the face has nothing to
do with your society, as I understand you, then?"
Witness—" No ; I mean that we have no rule what-
ever to enforce a penalty in a case of the kind I have
mentioned." Mr. Roebuck—" You spoke of ratten-
ing, and made use of the mild phrase of 'removing'
not stealing' tools. Now, removing tools from a
man I suppose takes away his power of doing his
work ? Witness—" Yes." Mr. Roebuck—" And
therefore deprives him of his wages?" Witness—
" Yes." Mr. Roebuck—" And therefore reduces
him to starvation ?" Witness—" Yes it may be
carried out to that extent." Mr. Roebuck—a' That
is rather a heavy result, is it not ? Witness—" It
is, but you will remember that I said I did not agree
with the practice." Mr. Harrison—" Does your
society officially recognise the practice ?" Wit-
ness—" Certainly not." Earl of Lichfield—" Do
they discourage it?" Witness —" They do dis-
courage it." Mr. Harrison—" If a member of the
union finding, for instance, that he could work a
great many more hours than was stated in the rules,
that being a strong man and a very skilful man he
could work piecework or overtime in the way not
recognised by the rules, and if for that purpose he
proposed to leave the union, could he do so without
molestation ?" Witness—" Yes, certainly, we say
to every man When you are no longer willing t.)
work under the rules you must leave us.' " Mr.
Roebuck—" Would there not in such a case be that
milder form of rattening of which you have spoken
already ?" Witness—" lam not prepared to say
that it would not be done in the workshop, but the
society countenance nothing of the kind." Mr.
Harrison—" Then the restriction upon freedom of
labour which your society imposes amounts to this,
—that the members of the society will voluntarily
consent to work under certain conditions so long as
they receive certain benefits ?" Witness—" Cer-
tainly." Mr. Harrison—" And if they choose to
work under different conditions they must forego
those benefits and leave the society ?" Witness—
" Yes." These are the chief points of evidence
given by this witness. Mr. George Potter was then
examined, but his evidence disclosed no new facts
beyond those already given. This is all the testi-
mony that has been given up to the present time,
and the Commission has been adjourned over the
Easter holy days.