The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-19 00:00:00

to the rights and privileges of the East belie Company, is
fraught with danger to the constitutional interests of Eng-
land, and is perilous to the prosperity of the Indian
Empire.'
Sir C. WOOD commenced his remarks by referring to
the changes which had been made by the act of 1853 in
the Government of India, which he characterised as the
greatest that had been made since 1784. In that year an
end was put to the elective and independent condition of
the council of India by the introduction into it of the
nominated members of the Crown. It was said that those
members who were nominated by the Crown would lack
that independence which was necessary on the part of the
directors of the company, but he challenged 193, _ hon.
member of that house, or director of the East India Com-
pany, to show that the directors nominated by the Crown
had not discharged their duties as ably and as independ-
ently as those who were elected by the proprietors in the
a j
os thatty , a
Government
had Hanel
occurred. mode
whichiT eregretted
had
to put an end to the state of things as settled in 1853. The
M
Government, however, brought in the bill in that year on
the express understanding that probably at some future
period a further change might be made in the government
of India, and that the measure then proposed would facili-
tate such further change. He was anxious that her Ma-
jesty's Government should stand fairly with the house in
this matter, and he proceeded to refer to the speech which
he had made in introducing the bill, to the effect that it
might be necessary at some future period to take the
Government of India entirely into the hands of the
Government of this country, and to carry on the adminis-
tration of the country in the Queen's name. On that occa-
sion the Government of which he was then a member re-
fused to )agree to any fixed time for the duration of the
bill which was then proposed. The right hon. baronet the
member for Carlisle had also expressed an opinion to the
effect that at some short period the government of India
must inevitably be placed under the direct administration
of the Crown. The Government of 1853 had left it de-
signedly and avowedly open to the Government at any
future time to assume thedirect government of the country.
Thus circumstances had arisen which, in the opinion of her
Majesty's Government, justified them in adopting that course
which had been contemplated in 1853. It must be open
to discussion whether these circumstances were sufficient
to justify the government acting in this manner ; but, at
all events, there could be no doubt that, in the course pro-
posed, they were not acting inconsistently with the inten-
tion of the Government in 1853. What was now proposed
was, that the government of India should be entirely go-
verned by the responsible advisers of the Crown. He had
never conceived it possible that any plan of government
should lee proposed as had been intended by the hon. mem-
ber for Sheffield, which would leave the whole administra-
tion in the hands of one Secretary of State, without the
advice of a council. It was indispensible that while there
should be a responsible minister connected with the Go-
vernment, there should also be a council of able and expe-
rienced men to guide and check such minister. It was
impossible to suppose that any one person who might be
elected by the Government would be able to manage the
affairs of India, or to bring to bear upon the subject a
sufficient amount of knowledge and experience which
would justify the removal altogether of a council such as
that proposed in the bill, br which had always existed in
connection with the government of India. In one shape
or another they must have a government for India consti-
tuted of a responsible Minister of the Crown and a council
of advice. For the period of two years, during which he
had held the office of President of the Board of Control,
he had received the greatest assistance from the Court of
Directors, and he had always found them able and willing
to give the best possible information upon all subjects upon
which their advice and opinion were sought. He had con-
sulted with four different chairmen of the court at
various times, and had availed himse'f of the information
which could be afforded by any of the other directors—
just as he would have done of any of the persons connected
with the Board of Control, and he most do thorn the
justice to say that they were always able and willing in the
most ardent manner to give him theirassistance and advice.
The Board of Directors formed, no doubt, as good a court
for council and advice as could be found. But if the gov-
edenment of India were to be carried on in the name of the
Queen, the members of the Council must be independent,
and appointed in some other form then that by election of
persons who happened to be holders of East India Stock.
The substantial change which was proposed to be made
was therefore really much less than it appeared to be, but
a more absurd mode of electing; a council for advising a
responsible Minister of India could not well be conceived
than that of the present Court of Proprietors of the
East India Company. He was utterly at a loss to con-
ceive why, seeing the character of the members who had
been nominated under the act of 195'3, the whole conncil
which are now proposed to be nominated should not be
equally as efficient as the existing court. Since he had
been connected with the Board of Control in 1853 he had
always felt the deepest interest in everything connected
with India, and had carefully watched the progress of
events which were going on there, even when fully occu-
pied by the business of other important departments. He
implored hon. members, therefore, to decide the question
submitted to them according to the best of their judgment,
and as a matter of such vital importance as the Govern-
ment of India—looking to the millions under our rule and
the great responsibility which we had taken upon our-
selves—to throw away party feeling of every kind and vote
honestly and uprightly for that which they believed to be
the best form of government for the people of India.
Mr. WILLOUGHBY felt most reluctantly compelled
to oppose the measure of the Government; and he would
do so principally because it would directly tend to draw
questions with reference to India within the area of
party politics and party discussions, from which, under
the present system, they were happily shut out. They
were about to legislate for an empire, and not for a
colony ; and through what agency had that magnificent
empire been created ? Notwithstanding the high autho-
rity of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must presume
to assert that that empire was acquired through the
medium of the Company. It was true, indeed, that they
were assisted with the troops and ships of England; but
it must also be remembered that every farthingeof the ex-
' pense was defrayed by the Company—(hear)—and not only
I the, but the revenue of India had been frequently applied
' for imperial purposes—witnese the attack on Java, on Bal-
laria, the war in Affghanistan, and lately the wars with
Persia sod China. (Hear.) The bill was ill-timed and
inopportune, and even the most perfect measure could not
fail of producing pernicious effects if enacted at such a
juncture. He could say with all sincerity that he
had not fallen in with a single member of the civil or
military service of India who regarded the bill with any
other feeling but that of dismay. But he principally had
had regard to the effect of the passing of the measure upon
the natives of India. The people of India were a sensi-
tive people, and, above all, they were apprehensive of
change. They would remember that the Government of
1853 was partly composed of the members of the Govern-
ment of 1853, and they would then ask most naturally
how came it that that which was regarded as such a mas-
terpiece of wisdom in 1853, when the Parliament of Eng-
land had legislated for India, was regarded as weak and
foolish in 1858. They would, therefore, come to the con-
clusion that the destruction of the Company's authority
was connected with the outbreak of the mutiny, that a
new policy was about to be inaugurated for India, and
that tney must forthwith expect the invasion of some of
their most cherished privileges. The effect of that would
be more injurious on the minds of the population than was
the greased cartridge question upon the native army. In-
deed, ha was not aware that a desire for a change in the
form of government had emanated from any party in
India, except it be from a small section of the Anglo-
Indian community at Calcutta, whose demand was
prompted by the refusal of Lord Canning and his council
to adopt a policy of indiscriminate vengeance. (Hear.) It
was sail that the double government was cumbrous and
irresponsible ; perhaps on the other hand, it might be
uaged that the importance of the promptitude described by
those hon. gentlemen would turn out to be exaggerated.
The fact was, the duties of the controlling authorities in
England ware deliberative and not executive. India, to
be governed well, must be governed in India—(hear)—and
it was therefore necessary to entrust vast, nay, even des-
potic powers to the Governor-General, and to the authori-
ties who acted in conjunction with him. But in conse-
quence of that very necessity, so much the greater was the
necessity of their acts and proceedings being scrutini-ned by
an independent body, not in a spirit of captiousness, but
1 out of a generous consideration and with a due apprecia.-
' tion of all the difficulties against which they had to con-
tend. (Cheers.) He maintained that hitherto those duties'
had been most efficiently performed by the Company,
under the supervision of the Board of Control. It was
said, Indeed, that a greater responsibility would be exacted
under the new system. Now his impression was that the
House of Commons would not, could not, and ought not to
attempt to exercise' the control now exercised over the
affairs of India. They might depend upon it that as soon
as the present excitement had passed ovenitheir old apathy
with reference to Indian affairs would return upon the
House of Commons. The fact was, that when a Minister
was backed up by a strong party he was no longer respon-
sible. He rather inclined to the opinion of Lord Metcalfe,
that if over England was destined to lose India, it would
be through the House of Commons. He did not think that
a greater trust could be confided to man than the proper
distribution of patronage ; and he had no doubt that feel-
ing was embedded in his mind from the admirable manner
in which he had seen patronage exercised in India. Indeed,
the patronage of India had been distributed by merit to
an extent which had no parallel throughout the world.
And were they not at that moment reaping the effects of
the system in India? for what other system could have
produced an equal number of men fitted to cope with
a vast emergency ? (Hear, hear.) In making his ap-
pointments the Governor-General was checked by his
council ; but they would lose that check when the control-
ling power was handed over to the House of Commons.
His great objection to the new measure was, as he candidly
admitted, founded on the probable distribution of the
patronage of India. With regard to the bill, he felt assured
that at the present moment we were only on the threshold
of oar difficulties. Standing out amongst these difficulties
were the military and financial questions. He feared that
the difficulties in the way of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would be much greater than he anticipated. People
who had lent money and had entered into contracts with
the company would look to them for payment, and they
might object to have the liabilities which had been con-
tracted shifted upon other shoulders. He believed that
the judgment of posterity had already been pronounced
upon the proposed change. (Laughter.) What he meant
to say was, that historians, foreign, English, and Ameri-
can, had spoken highly of the Eist India Company, and
one had described it as a miracle of government. In con.
elusion, the hon. member desired to express his thanks to
the Government for paying him the compliment of nomi-
nating him to the proposed council. After such a step had
been decided on ho had no alternative but to remain silent
or speak out ; and he could only say, " Amiens Socrates,
of hhiimise"xleferainend
Lualna Plato, sed magic veritas." (Cheers.)
, Mr. It. J. R. CAMPBELL thought it due to the house,
and he thought that in a
experience
country, to lay before them the result
with him in thinking that
for many years in India,
in India, and had a stisk
their
titled to be listened to than those who possessed property
in that country, were more en-
of the more intelligent
. iproperty. portion
reiorpecrliotafyry. the
toi
Trnithlahleeterri
esv,
others. It was the opinion
that the time had
life
eande first duty Company had failecdorinethfo;:inecobtoarnighme:.:hasstepettrthirenvaewwdeteehrttaiehre
the protection of • '
who thought that as th
pany the continuane o'2
captured at Delhi and
in continuing their rulenther places i
was not likely to be the and
r s-or-n
authority, as evinced the
ease. The sh
wanting was to establish that autho'
already done much in by
• presence
restoring cont. I
the people of India had been told eight pEoapsutllantidoina
treasures
othersasceuw,:ormatle was
g she ; but that
ea
nd :cow!
ahonef her nael troops,
tQh ula
t° e
hadwn's
in its roality. If
the army was sent out to Calcutta, that agho'nfwbsebn
company has ceased, and that of the hadQueeerau ca",,,,-6
menced, there would be now no necessity for theloa- —O.
10,000,0001. Within the last 20 years the territory ofnthef
country and the native troops had been doubled, whereas
the a umber of European troops had not been inlreare,l,
nd the most important fortresses had been left with an
insUfficitnt Luropeau guard. The lion. and gallant mem-

her for Aberdeen was chairman of the company at the time
that the troops were returning from the Crimea, but he
did not avail himself of the services of any of them, al-
though they were much required in India, while Govern-
ment, with more prudence, sent out 21,000 men, and also
the German Legion, to the Colonies. Had 10,000 or
12,000 men been sent to India we would have been spared
the recent disasters. With respect to the colonisation of
India, notwithstanding that we have had possession of
India for 100 years, there were not 10,000 European settlers
in the whole Peninsula, although there were parts of it,
especially the country around Simlah, well adapted for
colonisation ; and there was a marked contrast in the fide-
lity of the natives to the independent settlers and to the
servants of the company. The company has laid claim to
great improvements, but they had been forced upon them by
public opinion, and so unskilfully did they manage financial
matters that the rate of exchange with India increased
i from 6 to 12 per cent., involving a loss of from 200,00: /. to
300,000/. to the revenues of India. He would like to know
what steps had been taken since 1837 to improve the means
of communication in Lower Bengal? (Hear.)
Sir E. B. LYTTON said the right hon. gentleman the
First Lord of the Admiralty had complained that his hon.
friend the member for Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring) should
have rested his objection to this bill on the ground of time.
With regard to the measure itself, which he (Sir E. B.
Lyttton) was nob disposed to discuss at any length, he
thought it audacious, incomplete, and ill-considered. It
was audacious, inasmuch as it affected the conversion of an
administrative body, which, whatever might be its faults,
provided a cheek for every hasty or unwise proposition
on the part of the Imperial Government. It was ineorn-
plate, aait did not afford a single restraint upon the preci-
pitate or despotic enactments. It was ill-considered, as
upon so simple a point as the mere number of the council
it preposed to create, there was not a single gentleman
practically acquainted with the affairs of India who would
not tell them that that number was preposterous and inade-
quate to get through the amount of business which would
fall to its share. It was ill-considered, because the Govern-
ment asserted, and no doubt believed, that it would in-
crease their patronage. The patronage by the Minister
would be enormously increased, and in that direction
which would be peculiarly dangerous in that house. The
noble lord at the head of the Government said that there
was always a cry that this was not the right time for change.
The noble lord was unquestionably the highest authority
of any man living as to the right time for changing.
(Cheers and laughter.) He (Sir E. B. Lytton) was surprised
that so acute a statesman could not distinguish between a
hollow cry and that which was real and true. With regard
to the question of delay, what was the noble lord's reply to
the noble lord the member for London with regard to the
Reform Bill 1 The noble lord said it was not the right
time, because of the war with Russia, and now the
noble lord said this was the time for dealing with
India now that we were at war there. He (Sir B. Lytton)
objected to legislate for India in a time of war. We should
not always be at war in India, although, if it depended on
the (noble viscount, we always might be. (Cheers.) With
regard to the proposed council board it would be composed
of young men, who would be imbued with a lively sense
of further promotion in the hands of the Minister of the
day. The next two months might determine our peaceful
occupation of India, and how was it that the noble lord
proposed to pass those two months ? Why, by listening
to diatribes against the rapacity of the East India Company
—diatribes that would be published from one end of India
Ito the other. What would the Orientals say when they
read them? The Orientals were always averse to change,
and the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that our
empire in India had been acquired by unparalleled rapacity
and violence. How would the natives of India construe
such language when the time came for treaty with the re-
bels ? Mr. Samuel, in his despatch which had been laid
before the house, stated that everything that appeared in
the English papers that could be construed into being
favourable to the rebels was easily translated and dissemi-
neted. During the long course of the noble lord's career
did it ever occur to him until now that there was evil in
the system of double government for India? The noble
lord now said that more responsibility was required. Bat
what said the First Lord of the Admiralty ? He declared
that when he was President of the Board of Control his
authority was as absolute as that as the Secretary for the
Colonies or any other secretary. What particular had the
company foiled the Government in their endeavour to put
down the rebellion. On the contrary, had not the com-
pany supported the Government in every particular, and
yet this was the time selectel to destroy that company
and fix upon it the opprobrium of dismissal. And that
was by a Government which had plunged the country into
a war with China, of which no one could see the end, and
few could see the object. (Cheers.) This was the
time so!ected to crnoh that body svh;-...1s h-.d proved
itself so stanch, and which was now surrounded by so
many difficulties. The First Lord of the Admiralty hat
dwelt upon the advantage of establishing the name of the
Queen in India. No doubt that would be a great advan-
tage, but nothing could be more obvious than that the com-
pany were then trustees of the Crown, now all the acts had
to be ratified by a Minister of the Crown. So that if they
framed an act to-morrow that the Government should be
carried on in the name of the Queen, that would not
alter the relative position of the Board of Control anti the
company. Admitting some of the inconveniences of the
existing system, could they not remedy those inconve-
niences without destroying the company ? But, supposing
that the company ought to be destroyed, and even that
this was the right time to destroy it, was that a reason
why they should accept the proposition of the Govern
ment ? It was held that, in the council that was to be
created, they would be enabled to appoint some of the
most efficient of the Court of Directors, and yet it was
proposed to destroy that company. lie doubted, indeed,
whether the Court of Directors would consent to be nomi-
nees. The right hon. gentleman the Secretary of the
Board of Control shook his head. He (Sir E. B. Lytton)
did not think there was much in it, but he shook it.
(Laughter.) The noble lord at the head of the Govern-
mont desired the absolute authority to be placed in the
Crown, What would be the position of the House of Com.
mons then? If any young member were to ask a question
as to what were the intentions of Scindia, or what was the
meaning of Holkar, the reply might be that, without
meaning anything personal, the question was an extremely
absurd one. (Laughter.) Before that house could make
themselves competent to judge with discrimination of an
Oriental policy they must lama to orientaliso themselves.
They might pass a law which they might think was' ex-
tremely mild and conciliatory to the Ilindoo, and yet that
Hind3o might consider it the most exquisite torture that
could be inflicted, because its penalty might be c irriod
into the next world. Hitherto the discussion in Paths.
mont on India had been productive of good, because they
seldom acquired the warmth and colouring of party. Pees
this law and it would cease to be so. Pass this bill and he
believed that they would never actively interfere with the
affairs of India unless in the interest of party to serve
some Government, or, perhaps, to imitate the example of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to cast a stain upon some
illustrious name. This was not the moment to legislate,
but to arm. (Cheers.) This was the moment when they
should not damp the ardour of their countrymen as they
had been doing by stigmatising their own rule as that of
perfidy and rapine. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had
told them that the empire of India was no boon to England.
Whatever opinions might be hold with regard to that
empire which had passed through the perils of a mutinous
army was now to be exposed to the much more clangorous
ordeal of an organised favouritism and jobbing. Tit.t
empire was won by the valour and intellect of the misuse
classes, and it was for the members of that house who
avowed themselves the representatives of that class now
to determine whether they would allow that empire to be
governed by official imbecility and miuisteri tl t. ,
corrup ioa.
( Cheers.)

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The hon. baronet who just
sat down added, by his eloquent speech, another illustra-
tion of the strange nature of this debate. The hon. gen-
tleman the member fur Huntingdon, who moved the
amendment, says that this is not a time to legislate for
India, and, in enforcing his views with his usual ability,
Confined himself to the topic of his own resolution. Now I
must say fairly, that if he had gone into the Cabinet with
his reasons, and was successful in persuading the Minis.
tern of the Crown that it would be better to dofer for
another year the consideration of the Indian question,
when they could enter upon it with more knowl3dee and
calmer minds, the house would sit down content. But
the position of the question now is, that the Minieters of
the Crown having proposed the question, and having had
now three night's debate upon it, during which very fe,v
speakers urged his views, it was entirely a different mat-
ter. The sueporters of the hon. gentleman's motion urged.
that the present form of the government of India was not
very desirable, that however it should be kept as nearly as
possible to the form in which it now exists, and that the
greatest danger may be apprehended if any great altera-
tion took place. The question' then, was, what will be
its position if the house shoulda4ree with the hon mem-
ber for Huntingdon ? Will the house, or anybody out of
the house, be satisfied if no alteration should take place ;
would it be wise to leave the question in such a position ;
and would there not be the greatest doubt,, both here and in
India, as to the moaning of the resolution proposed ?
Would net all men's minds be turned to the question,
whether the House of Commons meant to alter the govern-
ment of India, or whether it would be deferred tor this
year, or many years to come? I could understand a nee-
lotion come to by the house that they were content with
the government of India—l could understand the wiselme
of carrying out that resolution, if the noble lord at the
head of the Government had leave to bring in a bill. But
I cannot see the wisdom of adopting a proceeding by
which the whole question will be bound up and allowed to
remain in suspense and deubt for another year, when no
man could see what would be the issue of our delibera-
tions ? I hope, therefore, the house will net agree to the
motion of the hon. gentleman, the member fur Hunting;
don. (Hear.) I confess, however, that I am not much
struck with the statement, however plausible, that legisla-
tion wil.bs:useless and dangerous while the revolt continues
in India. We legislated for Catholic Emancipation when
Ireland was on the verge of a civil war ; we legislated for
reform when the whole country was in a state of tumult
and confusion • and on the corn laws when the public mini
was far from being tranquil. The house has at all times
been equal to any crisis that may arise. It has always le-
gislated with prudence and wisdom, and proved itself equal
to the emergency. I will,thereiore, sir, now;address myself
to the question really before the house, whether we should
or should not (make a change in the government of India.
I think we may conclude, if it should be the opinion of the
house to carry the resolution, that, setting aside the pro-
posal of the Government, the whole question will remain
in abeyance for some time to come. What is the position
of the East India Company ? I am quite ready to admit
their merits, that they accomplished great things, and con-
ferred lasting benefits on the country. I remember hearing
a gentleman say, who went through all the vicissitudes of
the first French revolution, that men always guarded
against the dangers which were past and never to what ars
to come. Now, what is our present position with regard
to the East India Company ? It is quite true, though the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was much blamed for saying
so, that all parties in the house were indignant at the ag-
greseione made in India, and carried on by the then Go-
vernor-General. Mr Dnndas brought the question on, and
after a three hours' speech, moved that Mr. Hastings be
recalled. The directors of the Company, however, thought
one way, and the proprietors another—the whole thing
was in confusion, and Mr. Hastings remained. Mr. Pitt
and Mr. Fox then endeavoured to remedy the evil, and it
was at lest agreed on that the power of appointing the
Governor-General should be vested in the Crown, as an
effectual check to the directors and proprietors. From 1734
to the present day there was no reason to complain of the
aggressions of Governors-General. The danger they heti
I%,:ecio,tv.Za
:mdoeuelltd wasdboe,
fint therefore,
tlyh aft 0
sra precisely which they had in
of monopoly. Tht
with great politices.T.
There
be is another .
regarded, naan.ly„, the
a factory, and in an
part of the East India yonrdoatinco3sttoarpsp7lvo
point of view in which this question may
ay e
a remedyrs ago.
gradual loss of authority on the
(gear,Coot hun
hear.)a:laceny.
great and powerf I Company-
. 1.07 combined,hat the trade of the East, coupled
They were formerly a
v.Theywerhha
pa
thad,htl4 if
bno
cr fact,et u
tin o
inpeao :if; ree
0..1
Influence having here a fort and they e