The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-13 00:00:00

ime, five at a time of way and peace, or six while there
was peace. He was at a loss to reconcile the restriction
with the dictates of wisdom or justice, small as the residue
of the required time might be, whatever the amount of his
energy or oapacity, his courage or zeal, he had neither
appeal nor redress. The reserved list was his destine-
tion, and that of two many instances of a similar exclu-
sion which excited universal regret, and enlisted the
widest public sympathy. The hardship was increased
by the frequent reappointment of the same officer to
commands. By their death the country was debarred
the advantages it expected from their experience, while
it was deprived of the services of their survivors, who
had been and capriciously denied the opportunity
of that employment unduly
for which they had in vain reiterated
the most earnest desire. The easy and obvious redress,
if the present system continued in force, was to allow the
time spent by a commander in actual service to qualify
for the flag on the active list. (Hear.) The Navy List
was surcharged with the names of men who despaired of
promotion. In the Royal Artillery, Engineers, Marines,
as well as regiments of the Cavalry and the line, the
officers destitute of patronage and means of purchase, by
perseverance in the service, could attain the highest
rank, while the gray-headed lieutenant of the navy was
a proverb of neglect and hopelessness, and a standing
reproach to the administration of our national profession.
(Hear.) He assured the committee that in offering these
observations ha was actuated by no personal motive, but
se long as he had a seat in that house, on whatever side
be sat—and be had had a very comfortable seat on the
Opposition side for about five and a half years—(a laugh)
—he should do his utmost to maintain the welfare of the
naval profession, because he believed that the prosperity
of the country was inseparably bound up with it. The
, hon. member fer Lambeth had as usual remarked upon
the number of admirals on the list ; but those gallant
men had deserved well of their country—they had fought
her battles in time of war, and surely no generous mind
would grudge them that which they had so well earned.
If it would be any satisfaction, however, to the hon.
member for Lambeth, he could tell him that those brave
men were being fast removed from among us, and that
not many of them would much longer enjoy the pittance
which they had so nobly won. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. TOWNSEND, who had given notice of his intention
to urge upon the Government the propriety of increasing
the wages of the dockyard labourers from 13s. to 16s. per
week, said that his notice applied more particularly to vote
No. • but as he understood that there might be a long de-
lay before that vote would come on, he trusted that he
might be allowed to bring before the committee the claims
of the dockyard labourers upon the present occasion.
The CHAIRMAN said that it would be quite irregular
to discuss an item in vote No. 8 in the present stage of the
estimates, and the hon. gentleman was therefore out of
order.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 1,000,000/. on account of the wages of sea-
men and marines,
sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that as the committee had
come to an agreement to waive all discussion upon the
present occasion, it was not his intention to raise one • but
he gave notice that on a future occasion he should call at-
tention to a mode of preceding by which, as it appeared to
him, the estimates were rendered of no avail whatever.
In the years 1e56-1857 the grant, including the supple-
mentary estimates for No. 10, naval stores, for the building
of ships, &c., had been exceeded by M 6,4521. without any
authority from Parliament. That was a subject to which
on a future occasion he should call attention ; but in the
meantime he wanted en assurance from his hon. friend at
the head of the Admiralty that all moneys voted for a
special service should be applied to that service and to that
r(Hear, hear.)
Siry e
C. alone.
WOOD said that that the circumstance to which
theshiee n. b:ronet referred had occurred when he (Sir. C.
Wood was at the Admiralty, and it would be his duty
therefore to explain it when the hon, baronet should direct
attention to it more in detail. He would only now observe
that the course which was then taken was under the pro-
visions of an Act of Parliament, and he had no doubt that
ho should be able to satisfy the house that there had been
no irregularity in the preceoding.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that the particular subject to
which his hon. friend referred was one entirely between
his hon. friend and the right hon. gentleman opposite. In
answer to the appeal of his right hon. friend he had no
hesitationthat
minosnaey y saying that be entirely concurred in the prin-
ciple ought to be strictly applied to the pur-
poses for which it was voted. Under the terms of the Ap-
propriation Act considerable latitude was allowed with
respect to the appro?riation of grants ; but how far it;
might be desirable toamend the terms of that Act ho was
not prepared to say.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that a clause had been
introduced into the Appropriation Act,—clause 26,—by
whose authority he knew not, which entirely upset the
whole system of appropriation.
Mr. J. WILSON said the hon. baronet was entirely
mistaken about the clause to which he referred, and which
was numbered 27 and not 26, in the Appropriation Act.
That clause was originally inserted in the Act long before
either the hon. baronet or himself had a seat in Parliament.
The Act was discussed clause by clause, and the clause
alluded to was unanimously adopted. It would ba in the
recollectiin of the committee that last year's estimates
were taken in two separate sessions, part before and part
after the dissolution. The same thing occurred in 1841,
and as it was doubted whether the estimates granted pre-
viously to the dissolution could be applied to the service of
that year, a short Act was passed in the Christmas session,
declaring that the votes of the two sessions should be
treated as applicable to the service of the entire year. The
clause to which the hon. baronet referred was inserted in
the Appropriation Act of last session.
Mr. W. WILLIANIS believed that the clause was a very
mischievous one. lie opposed it last session, and would
have indated on a division if he had had any hope of

"Vcr tTh p-x-o-irts
impression being male on the public mind by
this discussion. In old times the whole of the naval vote
was considered by the Government of the day to be appli-
cable to any purpose. When Sir J. Graham was First
Lord of the Admiralty, in 183 J, he brought the subject be-
fo re the house and induced them to effect a change. Hon.
gentlemen must kaow perfectly well that it was altogether
impossible to estimate accurately the expenditure under
each head. If tho house desired to prevent any surplus
being applied to any purpose but that for which it was
voted, it would be necessary for them to vote much larger
sums under each head than the Government thought re-
quisite at the time of proposing the estimates. That would
be a very inconvenient course ; moreover' it was ren fersid
unnecessary by the change effected by Sir J. Graham,
which secured to the country a detailed expenditure of the
sums that might be voted in excess.
After a few words from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, condem-
natory of the 26th clause of the Appropriation Act, under
which any vote of last year might be applied to such pur-
poses as the Government might direct,
Mr. BENTINCK expressed his concurrence in the ob-
servations of the hon. and gallant member for Christchurch
as to the false economy pursued by this country for some
years past, by which millions of money had been wasted.
He contended that the naval department could never be
efficiently conducted until the system of placing civilians
in positions with which they could not possibly be conver-
sant was done away with—until the navy was, like the
army, administered by men of competent professional
knowledge. He also c Attended that the principle of
re-
sponsibility was not enforced against the Board of Admi-
ralty. There was a total want of system in the depart-
ment, and the responsibility was so divided that it was
merely nominal. Another objection to the present system
was the constant changing of the Lords of the Admiralty,
occasioned by a change of Ministry. He hoped the time
would soon arrive when all these absurdities of the system
would be abolished.
Mr. LINDSAY was of opinion that the important
position of First Lord of the Admiralty was better filled by
aciva
wianotd hlanitwould be by a naval man, because the
former probably be able, as having no professional
predilections, to teke larger views than the latter. He by
cmiralty
no means wished to decry professional experience, but the
present was assisted by
naval
tFhiers management
loorrdd sof the
of A
late
Admiralty
Boards at
of the Admiralty whichof great experience. There was one thing in
had frequently astonished him, and that was the non-em-
ployment of the magnificent screw ships which formed part
of the naval force of the country as guardsbips, instead of
the inferior class of ships at present so employed. Every
practical man was aware that a ship deteriorated more
when laid up in ordinary than when employed on active
service, and independently even of that consideration ho
believed that the finest ships in the service ought to be em-
ployedany u as
silagsships at the various ports, to be prepared in
case ofden emergency either for defensive opera-
tions or to go to sea. He hoped that the right hon. gentle-
man the First Lord of the Admiralty would take into
consideration the suggestion which he had thrown out.
housealSl ei rn
jfinr.orm reference
quite agreed with what had
tehenhc°eDi gentleman who had last addressed the
o employing a better class of ships as
' guardehips ; but he could not help saying that in his
opinion that branch of the naval administration of the
country which related to the construction of ships was in
a most anomalous condition. (Hear.) Ships for the Royal
navy were constructed without any reference to those
sperrinilles of shipbuilding which obtained in the merchant
v , and which were proved to be the sound principles
for obtaining speed combined with safety. A class of
frigates had only lately been constructed of which he would
take the Diadem as an example ; that ship had cost an enor-
mous sum of money in the endeavours to force her through
the water, a thing which,
from the appearance of her, it ap-
peared almost impossible to effect ; but at last, at an enor-
mous expense, she was forced through the water at the rate
of 12 knots an hour. He considered that the plans of ships
to be built ought to be submitted to a committee of prac-
tical men, and, even if they wore laid before that house,
there was enough
practical experience in that house to
prevent such blunders recurring as had already been com-
mitted. He understood that a new frigate, the Orlando,
was expected to prove much superior to her predec3ssors,
but the experiment which had been required to arrive at
her model, lengtlaenin ships 4or 5 feet at a time instead
of 50 feet, had been most costly. For his own part he did
not think that the Board of Admiralty would ever be pro-
perly
managed
by a civilian, for no civilian could be ex-
pected to know anything about the matter —(a laugh)—and
under the guidance of civilians a sum of money had been
wasted which would have sufficed to construct two navies.
(Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to, as were the following votes
on account :-
450,000/. towards defraying the expenses of the victual-
ling department.
70,000/. for the salaries of officers and the contingent
expenses of the Admiralty-office.
6',0001. towards defraying the expenses of the coast-
guard and naval coast volunteers.
30,0001. for the salaries of officers connected with the
scientific department of the navy.
70,000/. for the salaries of officers and the contingent
expenses of her Majesty's naval establishment at home.
abroad.
10,000/. for the expenses of the naval establishments
On the vote of 450,000/. on account for the wages of
artificers employed iu the dockyard,
Sir F. SMITH urged upon the right hon. gentleman at
the head of the Admiralty the propriety of giving to the
artificers employed higher wages,
as it was impossible to
secure the services of the most efficient men without giving
them au adequate remuneration.
Admiral WALCOTT desired to impress the same view
upon the right hon. gentleman.
attention of
Mr. TOWNSEND wished to press upon the
the Government and of the committee the propriety of
raising the pay of the labourers in our dockyards from
was not loss than
red how liberal
ISs. per week; and when they rernembe
I.ls. to 15s. per week. The wages allowed to the same
class of men in private establishments
that the country
personages, it could not surely be said
whose poor men li
could not afford to give to a body of
t. nel honour,
they were in voting pensions and allowances to illustrious
vices were so essential in maintaining the national
romou
"a fair day's wage for a fair day's work," lie lied