The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-29 00:00:00

InTERIAI PARLIAMENT

ROUSE OF LORDS.—LAST EVENING.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on tho woolsack at
four o'clock.
THE HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND)
ACT CONTINUANCE (No. 2) BILL.
Lord REDESDALE movod the third reading of this
bill, and it was passed.
NATIONAL DEBT BILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
INCREASE OF TILE EPISCOPATE BILL.
The House again went into Committee upon this Bill.
The ARC lIBISIIOP of CANTERBURY said that, as
far as he was concerned, lie acc-pted the amendment of the
Noble Earl.
Earl GREY was understood to say that the objection
which ho offered to the bill as it formerly stood was the
clauses that regulated the suffragan or assistant bishops,
and he considered that by amendment these were removed.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said "one" instead
of " one or more persons."
Tho EARL of DEVON said that he thought the Noble
Earl opposite had provided an excellent amendment, and
be quite concurred with him as to the clause that he had
produced with regard to the assistant; that he had used
a very wise discretion, and ono beneficial to the public.
Several other technical objections were made by the
Archbishop of Canterbury, and remarks from the Bishops
of Oxford, London, and Peterborough as to the fact that
thei assistant bishops might be seleuted from any clergy-
man, whether they hold a position as dignitaries in the dio-
cese or not, and objection to that being made on the ground
that a clean, canon, or archdeacon acting as an assistant
bishop would retain his position in the diocese,
while the simple clergyman would relapse from the
same position to be a simple clergyman again, but it also
bring urged that a bishop would be sure to select some
dignitary of the diocese, the bill passed through com-
mittee.

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the second reading
of the Statute Law Revision Bill, the object of which he
stated was merely to continuo the work of revising the
statute law. _

The bill was read a second time.
The Public Libraries (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill
was also read a second time, and several other bills having
been advanced a stage, the house adjourned at 5 minutes
past 7 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-LAST EVENING.

The SPEAKER took the chair at two o'clock.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.

house wont into committee on this bill.

The discussion was resumed upon the proposal to
adopt the following reconstruction of the 35th clause :
—" Where any occupier of a dwelling-house or
other tenement for which the owner at the time
of the passing of this act is rated, or is liable to be rated,
would be entitled to be registered as occupier in
pursuance of this act, at the first registration of Parlia-
mentary voters to be made after the passing of this act, if
he had been rated to the poor rate for the whole of the re-
quired period, such occupier shall, notwithstanding he
may not have been rated prior to the 29th September,
1867, as an ordinary occupier, be entitled to be registered
subject to the following conditions : first that he has been
duly rated as an ordinary occupier to all poor rates, in re-
spect of the premises, after the liability of the owner to
be rated to the poor rate has ceased under the provi-
sions of this act ; second, that ho has before the
20th July, 1868, paid all poor rates which have become
payable from him as an ordinary occupier in respect to the
premises up to the preceding sth day of January, together
with all the arrears of poor rates, if any, duo from the
owner before his liability to be rated ceased as herein-
before mentioned."

Mr. DENMAN obj,:cted to the insertion of the date,
viz , 20th July, 1868 ; he thought the matter should be left
open.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could not agree with the hon. and learned gentleman. It
was desirable that the measure should bo a complete ono,
and ho hoped the house would adopt the clause as it stood.

Mr. GLADsToNE: thought the matter very important.
There was an aiwn talent, however, previous to it which
he thought it desirable should be made in the last proviso,
and that was to introduce the words "or shall have been
demanded" after the word "payable" in the last proviso.
With respect to the date in the clauio he thought it would
be desirable to insert instead of that the words "the day
appointed by the act," because the matter of dissolution
was connected with it. He thought that if the 20th of
July was fixed tho act would not come into operation until
December, 180, or pssibly January, 1869. Lie therefore
moved the ()Mission of the words 20th of July, 1868, in
order to i%sert the words, "the day appointed by the
act."

GOLDNEY thought it best to allow the date to
stand. The proposal of the right hon. gentleman would
entail another discussion on the motion at another and
later part of the deliberation.
The first part of the am7ndment was agreed to, but that
relating to the !late 20th January was withdrawn, after an
intimation from the Government bench that the date was
not insiTted as a positive and unalterable one.
Mr. MONK thought the words after the sth of January
should be omitted. If they were retained the tenant
would be liable fur the payment of arrears, however far
back.

Tito CHINCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the objection to the wordi well founded, anti therefore ho
would agree to their being struck out, and the atuse end-
ing with the word; "Tr h of January."
Mr. P. SCROPE, who had an arneldment on the pap3r,
thought that would bo the proper time to bring it forward.
The amendment or addition to the clause was as follows:
"Provided that no person, whether owner or occupier of
a dwelling house within any Parliamentary borough the
rateable value of which shall be less than XI, bo hereafter
rated to the relief of the poor in respect of such dwelling
house."

The CIHA.NCELLOR► of the EXCHEQUER. thought it
would not be in accordance with order for tho hon. gentle-
man to proceed with the amendment at present.
The CHAIRMAN having ruled that it was quite in ac-
cordance with order for the hon. gentleman to proceed,
Mr. P. SCROPE then moved his provision, and said that
the present time was the first that ha had brought the
subject under the consideration of the house. He had done
so in 1858, but the matter was looked upon with distaste;
but that circumstance had not at all daunted the interest
he felt in the matter. In nearly all Taxation acts certain
exemptions were made, as in the income act no person
was taken whose income did not exceed .£lOO. He could
cite various other cases in which exemptions were made
on account of the poverty of tke person liable to the taxa-
tion; and that being so in many instances, he did not see
why time usual reservation be exempted or ignored in the
act under discussion.

Mr. I.IIBBEIZT opposed the proposition, as he looked
upon it as an attempt to limit the franchise. Under
these circumstances he should vote against the hon.

member.

Viscount CRANBOIINE said he should support the
proposition, although he should have much preferred that
the hon. member had fixed the amount at XL higher, and
then he could havo adopted the proposal of the hon.
member for Finsbury. The line was cut short in the in-
come-tax at £100; it was cut short at £2O, and yet it was
proposed to go to the very bottom of the lino in respect to
the qualification for the franchise.
" •

Mr. HENLEY hoped the house would reject the pro-
posal, especially as there had been a very general objec-
tion to have any hard and fast lino in the bill. (Hear,
hear.) lie did not think that the refusing to adopt the
proposition would lead to the increase of corrupt practices
at elections.

Mr. GREGORY thought the !rouse had fixed a hard and
fast line last night, when they set the qualification for the
county franchise at £l2. 110 had, however, a proposition
which ho thought preferable to that of the hou. member
for Stroud, which ho should be quite prepared to bring
forward at the proper time. Ile, h 0 w_
ever, would take the opportunity of saying he
should havo no objection to alter his amendmeta so as to
throw the payment of the whole of the taxes below £1
upon the landlord.
Mr. HUBBARD supported the proposition of the mem-
ber for Stroud.

Mr. BRIGHT thought it was rather late to discuss
matters connected with the borough franchise. In the year
1838 he (Mr. Bright) addressed numerous meetings in
the principal towns on the subject of Reform, and it would
perhaps be an interesting fact for hon. gentlemen opposite
to know that, with regard to the borough franchise,
the proposition in the bill brought forward by the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was
proci.eely that which he then recommended. (Hear, boar,
and laughter.) Ile held in his hand a copy
.of the bill,
which he brought forward at the time, and from which it
would be seen that with respect to the occupiers of dwel-
ling-houses, those persons excused from payment of rates
on the groun I of poverty, and those who paid their rates
by the '23th of July—(hear, hear)—the bill of the right
hon. gentleman eatirely corresponded. Her Majesty's
Government had brought forward a bill which exceeded
th extremist measure with respect to the borough
franchise th it he ever remembered either in public
or in private, and therefore he considered it would
be ungrateful and nnhandsome if lie were to say
anything against it or to withdraw his support from
them. (Laughter, and cries of " Hear, beer.") lie
could not approve of the proposi! ion of the hon. member
for l7;!roll, because ho looked upon it as one that would
restrict the franchise. The change of opinions of hon.
gentlemen opposite that had taken place during the last
twelve months would be looked upon as marvels of the
times, (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) It had been
alv,,mogcous to thcm, and it would bo advantageous
to the country. They had done a great and good thing,
;end ho thankyil them from the bottom of his heart for the
conclusion at which they bad arrived. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. gentleman the member fur Birmingham had just
favoured the house with one of those speeches remarkable

for its incoherent conciliation. (Laughter.) Ho stated that
they had changed their opinions since last year. (Loud
and derisive cheers from the Opposition.) The party
then in power brought forward a plan for the
reconstruction of that house. (Hear, hear.) They
on that side of the house thought it wps im-
perfect; they opposed it, and now they brought forward
that measure with which they had been called upon to
proceed, and which contained characteristics which
the other did not possess. (Hear, hear.) If the
proposal of the honourable member for Strum.' was
agreed to it would shake and disturb everything that had
been already settled. (Hear, hear.) It was an attempt to
undo by a sidowind what was against the spirit of their
legislation, and therefore its object would be to weaken
the provisions of the bill.
' Mr. GLADSTONE strongly criticised the course the
Government had pursued with respect to the bill, and said,
in his opinion, the framework of the bill upon which they
were then enpged was consistent with the acts of her Ma-
jesty's Government on former occasions (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman then referred to the changes that
had taken place in the Cabinet since the subject of Reform
had been under consideration, and contended that
consistency, as far as the majority of the
Cabinet was concerned, evidently had been at a discount.
He agreed with the hon. member for Birmingham, and
for these reasons. Ho thought it would unsettle and en-
danger a measure which promised to be the greatest public
benefit that had been accomplished for a long time.
Mr. P. SCROPE said after the debate that bad taken
place he would withdraw his amendment. The great
cause of non-success appeared to him to bo that ho was
too late.

The amendment was then by leave withdrawn.
Mr. GREGORY said after what had taken place he
should not bring forward his amendment.

The committee then proceeded to consider clause 5,
which embraced the educational franchise.

An amendment was brought forward by Mr. POWELL
entitling the holder of a certificate of having passed a local
examination to the privilege of voting.
Mr. BO VERIE altogether disapproved of the amend-
ment in the strongest manner. He did not think that
Parliament would delegate the power of granting votes to
one or two gentlemen, however respectable, who might be
deputed by any university to conduct the local examina-
tion of school boys, and in the event of their coming
up to the mark, giving them a certificate which was to
confer the privilege of voting for a member of Parliament
for life. The hon. and learned member for Richmond (Sir
It. Palmer) intended to take the sense of the house on the
whole clause, therefore he 'thought it would be better to
come to some conclusion whether the clause should remain
in the bill before they went into a long discussion as to its
provisions.

Mr. FAWCETT hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would stand firm with respect to the enactments of this
clause. The proposals for disfranchisement, he
regretted to say, had invariably come from his (Mr.
Fawcett's) side of the house, and it was only by the coura-
geous manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had conducted the bill that they had been successfully
assisted.

Sir R. PALMER said the motives and purposes for
which these franchises were introduced having been got
rid of by the. withdrawal of the dual vote, ho could not
see for what purpose they were retained, and, therefore,
he intended to move that clause be entirely struck out of
the bill.

After a discussion, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
withdrew the clause.

The sitting of tho house was shortly afterwards ad
journed until 9 o'clock.

THE EVENING SITTING.-A "COUNT OUT."

The house resumed its sitting at nine o'clock, when an
hon. member moved that it be counted. There were very
few,perhaps not half a dozen members, present at the time.
The glass was reversed, and the sands began their down-
ward course, the hon. members the while coming in slowly.
When the sands had entirely trickled down, the Speaker
asked the hon. member if he intended to persevere with
his motion, and receiving an affirmative, ho said ho
had not quite taken the chair when the honourable
member made the motion. Ho therefore wished to
know whether the hon. member was prepared to
repeat his motion, and again receiving an answer in the
affirniative, he took his hat, and counting slowly, told
off 37 members, among whom was the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, who, with a few members of the Government,
entered the house while " the count" was being made.
The right lon. gentlemaa looked anxious, and Colonel
French was most uneasy, running out of and into the
house and out again, crying out to hon. members, who
stood in groups talking in the lobby, " Come in, come
in." But strangely enough, the Speaker, who counted
slowly, paused, and an unprecedented occurrence
in the annals of " counts " commenced counting
again, and, with still more tardy utterance of
the numbers, "one, two, three, four," &c., and
emphatic dotting of his hat. As ho ran his eye
here and there over the benches, he this time counted 38
members. Still the Speaker kept his place in the chair for
a few moments, Ministers kept their seats o❑ the Mini,te-
rial bench, and lion. members looked at each other in doubt
and amazement to know what the tenacity of place meant,
and whether a third "count" was about to be made. The
Speaker, however, rose and left the chair, and hon. mem-
bers, many of whom, evidently glad of the release, began
to depart; and thus ended the reassembling of a house
evidently jaded after the first day's long sitting. lion.
members manifestly had no taste for an evening sitting
commencing at nine o'clock.

Railway and other Companies.

MADRAS IRRIGATION AND CANAL.

geut:ral meeting of this compiny
The half-yertrly
was held at the offices, Queen-street-place, South-
wark-bridge; Mr. J. Thomson in the chair.

Mr. J. Westwood, the secretar3,-, having read the
notice convening the meeting, the report, an abstract
of which has appeared in The Sun, was taken as
read.

The CHAIRMAN, in moving the adoption of the
report, said they could not say so much of the pro-
gress made in the past half-year as they could of
preliminary arrangements for entering upon the
requisite operations with vigour. Perhaps the most
unfortunate result of the delay in conferring with
the Government was the breaking up of their staff
in India when engaged upon works only half com-
pleted. When they considered that those men had
experience of the climate, were acquainted with the
habits and language of the people, anti had control
over them the loss from delay could scarcely be
overestimated. The engineers for the new staff had
been selected with great care. There were 21 en-
gineers in all, forming a sufficient staff to carry on
the works efficiently. There had been some delay
from sickness, and three of them were now on sick
leave. Extensive operations were commenced in
April last, but a new source of delay was interposed ;
the Government wanted a careful measurement of
all the works executed by the company, and the
quantities of each in detail, which would involve
considerable difficulty. The works varied from mile
to mile, and they had explained the impolicy of fur-
ther delay. They had promoted Mr. Leeson, who
was well acquainted with the works, to the office of
chief engineer, and, as the success of their operations
depended on the able supervision of the works, they
could not have intrusted them to better hands.
He bad been in their employment since 1859, and
had carried on the works intrusted to him with
a due regard to time and cost. They hoped to
have some relaxation from the minute system of
Government control which had so long impeded
their progress. They did not object to Govern-
ment control, and if anything was going on wrong
nothing would afford the directors more pleasure
than to be set right ; but the kind of control which
had heretofore been exorcised was not for good but
for evil, and instead of causing delays of months, it
caused delays of years. This had, at least, added
20 per cent. to the, cost of management. There were
unavoidable delays to contend with from the sick-
ress of natives employed, as well as of the com-
pany's staff, and at times great mortality. They
had found out the weak point of the anicut at Soon-
k asala; which rested on a rubble foundation, but
that had been removed, and it now rested on the
solid rock, and he hoped they would hear no more
of breaches in it. The constructive operations sere
on eight sections, extending over 141 miles ; they
would shortly be on the ninth section, and also on
the tenth section, which included the large works to
Cuddapah, in all 180 miles, and he hoped that suffi-
cient labour would be obtained. They had made
surveys in the Bellary and Nellore distri3's, and also
plans and estimates of the works. The miserable
condition of the Thllary district required something
to be done as soon as possible to save it from deso-
lation. Lord Cranborne had called the attention of
the local Government to the matter, and Captain
Mullins, their consulting engineer, had gone over
the whole distance, mile by mile, and highly ap-
proved the plans of the company's engineer. Re-
servoirs would have to be made, and the cost of the
canal and other works in the upper section, 67 miles
in length, would be £1,500,000. It was estimated
that, at eight rupees per acre, the irrigation would
yield a return of 221 per cent. on the outlay, but at
ten rupees per acre it would give 25 per cent. If