The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-28 00:00:00

THE SUN,, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 28, 1858.

".That no such order shall be sent without having been
previously communicated to the Vice-President and one I
other member from time to time to be selected by the

house on Friday. He _begged to ask the hon. and
learned gentleman whether iu his capacity as Attorney-
General, and in the discharge of his daty to her Majesty,
he had received any fee in reference to any bill in the
discussion of which in the house he had taken part, and
on which he voted on a division ? _

Secretary of State,
Lord J. RUSSELL said the amendment io loi4 opioiou
did not provide that security which was intended by the
Lords, and he therefore proposed that the - following
' words be substituted, " That no such order shall be
sent without having been'previously communicated to a
committee consisting of the Vies-President and fcur
other members to be selected from time to time by the
Seoretary of State, and the opinion of the committee in
respect to such order shall have been given in writing."
Lord STANLEY said it was no easy task to defend
the amendment made by the Lords, but the same objec-
tion the noble lord took to the amendment applied with
equal force to his proposition. , (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM was opposed to the Lords' Amend-
ment. The CHANCELLOR of the .KXCHEQUER said
if the noble lord would withdraw his amendment he
would not support that made by the Lords. (Hear,
hear.) He thought the words as they originally stood in
the bill far preferable to either amendment.
Mr. MANGLES approved of the amendment. made
by the Peers.
Sir J. COLEBROOKE thought no security would
be given by compelling the Minister to communicate his
despatches to members of a council appointed by himself.
Mr. BOWYER thought the amendment of the noble
lord the member for London was a great improvement
of the Lords' Amendment, although he was of opinion
that the number of the committee as suggested by him
was rather too numerous—three members of the commit-
tee he thought would be sufficient. The amendment,
however, of the noble lord, taken altogether, was a very
useful one, and, in the event of a division, he should give

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-4t has been the
practice from very early times, whenever a bill is brought
ihto Parliament, whether it is brought forward by any
depaltment of the Government, or is a bill brought be-
fore the house at the instance of an individual member,
which involves any question of the rights of the crown
to any property of any description, to submit the
bill, or the clauses which relate to the rights of
the crotsn, to one or other, or both of the law
officers of the crown, the Attorney-General and
the Solicitor-General. That practice is well known
—must be well known to the meinbers of every
Government who have sat in the house in ,the present
century, and must be and is known to the hon. gentle-
man who put the question. During the present session
two bills, one of which was recently before the house,
directly affected the rights of the Crown to property of
considerable value.- Those bills, in conformity with
ancient practice, were submitted to the Attorney-G-eneral
and I believe to my hon. and learned friend the Solicitor
General, under the usual circumstances and with the
usual fees attached to them ; and certainly and un-
-1 donbtedly in' the discussion on that bill the Attorney-
General and the Solicitor-General, as they felt hound, in

duty to the Crown to do, did take part, and in one, two,
and, I believe, three divisions, I myself, and I believe
nay hon. anti learned friend the Solicitor•Ganeral took
part. (Hear, hear.)

THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT.
Mr. S. WORTLEY, who had a motion on the paper
to call attention to the subject of the Wellington
monument, appealed to the Government whether he wai
not entitled t) bring it on. He had given every facility

it his support.
After a few words from Mr. A. MILLS,
Mr. V. SMITH locked upon the amendments as mere
sham. One of the main objects of the bill was to get
rid of the secret committee altogether ; but both
amendments were in fact to reconstruct that secret
committee. He looked upon the proposed committee as
a most cumbrous and inconvenieut hamper upon the
Secretary of State. He thought that either the commit-
tee ought to be open to be whole Council, or else to rely
upon the sole responsibility of the Secretary of State.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN said the object was to have a re-
sponsible Minister to administer Indian affatre. If
the Minister was to be responsible, what need was there
of his having any advice from the Council ? In his
opinion the amendment eniirely took away the responsi-
bility of the minister. He hoped the hou,e would not
agree to the amendment.
Mr. WILSON said he believed the amendment of the
Lords would provide a check upon the Minister, and if
that Minister bad hitherto been under the necessity of i
consulting even one member of the Council, the despatch
of Lord Ellenborough would never have been sent out to
India.
Lord PALMERSTON said the foundation of the
measure was, that for the present Government organisa-
ti .n should be substituted the single responsibility of tt e
Minister of the Crown ; and the amendment of the
Lards, and the proposition of the noble lord the member
for the City of London, were opposed to that priceple.
He greatly objected to its being made compulsory upon
the Minister to communicate his despatches to any par-
tieular person who was not a member of the Cabinet.
Such a proposition was, in effect, shackling the Cabi-
net. He hoped the house would reject the amendment
altogether. (Divide, divide.)
The SPEAKER then put the amendment of Lord John
Russell from the chair, and it was negatived without a
division.
On the question that the amendment made by the
Lords be agreed to,
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the Lords' amendment
Against it
M jority ---68
The amendment was consequently rtjsated.
The next amendment, by which the Lords sought to
vest the patronage in the Secretary of State in Council,
was opposed by
Sir J. GRAHAM, who said the effect of the alterations
would be to invest the whole of the Indian patronage
in the Secretary of State, sutijeot only to a protest from
he Council. As the bill went up to the Lords it was
proposed that the patronage should be vested in the Se-
cretary of State, with the concurrence of the majority of
the Council, and he thought they sheuld either restore
the words "with the concurrence of a majority of the
Council," which were struck out in the Lords, or to vest
it entirely in her Majesty.
Lord STANLEY said he could not defend .the Lords'
amendment.
The amendment was rt;jso!ed without a division.
The next amendment of the Lords to the same clause
was object-d to on the same ground, and rej,cted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
would be cenveniect if he was now to move the adjourn-
ment of the debate until six o'clock.
The motion was pu ; from the chair and agreed to
INTERNATIONAL PATENT RIGHT BILL.
This hill passed through c oninittee.
ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS BY COM
MITTEE BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
The sitting was then suspended.
The house resumed at 6.x o'clock.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
CLIURCII RATES.

to the Government business on the undevtancling that

he should have a❑ opportunity of bringing the silbject

forward

The CHANCELLOR t.f the EXCHEQUER—It is
always agreeable to me to meet the wishes of the hon.
members on both piths of the house, and I have endea-
voured to do so. I put it to the house whether the ap-
peal made to me is reasonable ? (Hear.) I should not
be doing my duty if I did not ask the house to proceed
with the Lords' 'amendments to the India
_ INDIA BILL.

The consideration of the Lords' amendments was pro
oceded with.
EXA.XIINATION OF THE MEDICAL SERVICE.
On clause 51,
Sir H. RAWLINSON objected to the amendment.
The clause provided for the competitive examination of
the civil service end the medical service. By the amend-
ment the latter was passed over, and the medical service
became nominative.. Practically there was now no com-
petive examination for the medical service, for in the re-
cent instances the number of candidates did not equal
the number of appointments ; there were very few ap-
plications and the appointments were not taken up.. At
the same time it was the wish of the house that the sys-
tem of competitive examination should be kept up for
the medical service.
Lord STANLEY said the question of competitive
examination could be discussed on the next clan= e. He
imagined the examination of the civil service woul ap-
ply to the medical service also.
The amendment was agreed
,to.
Oa the amendment to. clause 32, which altered the
clause as sent up by the Commons, extending cernpetie
tive examination t) all brandies of the military service,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he understood the noble
lord wished the house to agree to the amendment of the
Lords ; if so, there oueht to be some explanation on the
subject, for it seeme I at first sight that an extraordinary
omission hal been made in the cause by the Lords. It was
his wish, and that of other members of that house, that the
system of competitive examination should be more gene-
rally introduced, so as to go beyond the civil service, and
embrace the different branches of the army. The noble lord
who had always declared himself favourable to the prin-
ciple of competitive examination, expressed his readi-
ness to include that principle in the bill ; but he ex-
pressed an opinion that it would be better in the first
instance not to introduce it in all branches of the army,
but to confine competitive examination to the civil ser-
vice and the scientific branches of the army—namely,
the artillery and engineera. That was a fair proposal on
the part of the ; oble lord, and it was taken as the inten-
tion of VIE; Gt)Vt rAment. But tl e Lords, while t .ey had
left in all the words relating to the examination, had lett
out the words which gave tae persons who had under-
gone the examinations a security that they should receive
the rewerd cf their labours, and they gave a power to
the Crown to' put an end to the system of competitive
examination, for it was obvious that such examinations
wool f be of no value unless the hest men obtained the
rewarde they sought. If that was to be the case the dis-
appointment would be so great that it was evident
that no one woul 1 present himself fir exernination. It
would, he thought, be necessary to restore the words
%hid% had been omitted. He objected to leaving this
matter at the disereion of the Minister of the Crown.
The noble lord was in favour of the principle of compe-
titive examination, but another Secre.ary for India
might be opposed t ft, and would not carry it out, lie
thotrytit the words in question should be restored, and
shoull mast the amendmen., with a negat,ve.
Lord STAN LEY said the noblel,rd had done justice,
not only to himself, but to the present Government,
when he said that they were f evour able to the principle
of competitive exerninati m. He had supported that pun-
' ciple five years ago, when it was less understood and less
popular than now. He had not altered his view, and it
had been his pleasuie, as well as his duty, to exten-1 thee
principle to the scientific: branches of the ataxy in India.
If the proposal' to alter the clan te had in his mind de-
stroyed the right to the preservation of that principle,
he would far rather have resigned the situation which
he hell than have agreed to it. (Hear.) But he thought
that it would not • have tbat effsct, and ho would explain
in a few words how the matter stood. . If the home
accepted the amendment of the Lards, it would, only
leave the question of competitive examination for the
civil service on the same footing as it stood in 1353,
when the then President of the Board of Control intro-
duced a bill to sanction the principle of competition for
the civil service, but that only gave power to the Crown
to establish the system by order in council. If the Lords'
amendmeSt was adopted by the house, there would be
no alteration, and the right would exist in the same man-
ner as ever. The change he proposed was to recognise
directly by act of Parliament the principle of competitive
examination, instead of by order is coat-roil. W hen
that was proposed, it was met by -the oli.letion that it
was not a constitutional course to give an administrative
and executive act a parliamentary tide, and he believed
that was correct. There was no instance in
.which a
Parliamentary ti le had beep given. As to the olj .cton
of the noble lord that it was in tae power of a Mini-ter
for India to put an end to the system, the security
against-that was that the order in council carrying out
the system must be superseded by another, %%Teich must
be laid before that house, which had pronounced in
favour of the system of competitive examination, and
which it could lfard!y be in the power of any Minister to
resist. What ho relied upon was the necessity of an are
peal to the house bsfore any alteration or eiodification of
the system could take place. His belief was that whe-
ther the words were ()witted as now proposed, or r.-
tamed, the principle of unres'ricted competition was
eqnally safe, and-certain to be rnainte ned. •
Sir D. NORREYS supported the am niiment.
Sir J. GRAEIA.SI said if his noble friend (Lord John
Russell) dividid, he shots d divide with him. He bad
the utmost confidence in the assurance of the noble lord
the President of the B iard of Control, because he well
rernemberedehe vote given by horn in 1853 in favour of
ompetitive examination. ,The noble lord seemed to think
there was no practical dlfference between an order in
council and a statutable recognition' which was part
of the bill sent to the Lords. Ho differed with the
noble lord altogether. It was a difficult thing•te re-
peal an act of Parliament, but au order in council
might be dealt with by a single vote. Sir J. Lawrence,
whose recent experience of civil appointments under CM-
petition was so, favourable, earnestly desired that the
principle should be extended to the scientific branches of
the army. On this point he was able to appeal to aunhe.
rity, experience, and the decision of the Reuse of C
mon?, and could see no reason for the alteration which
had been male by the Loris. (Hear, hear.) •
Tco
Lionr l‘aelnutrott
o.bawf
competitive
c.eN,
sat V..,
usa house
onAot hi
ohLeseapsPy ,dacsOw%itl,
taeulLii
musgmaEhsemeier:sei.
might
otitte
(IT,
be
htseetiehesatyei
apprehended
irecurew:eant
,srbi
etti
desirable
eyodhi nut:
ne)drhoata;
hwil see du t
uw
ra was, 0 whe-
therrn
er
"to;
given
oiv tirn nder eooi rnd:
the
n
s
ig
or whether
mighte
great a security as could be
given short of Parliantomtery legislation—namely, that
all regulations made should he laid on the table within
14 days after the me.eting of Parliament. The power of
continuing competitive examination was as complete as
words could make it, siobj3ct to this provilo, that the
under
house
all circumstancessh)uldretainthe suchpos ofer
regulations
acognr considering
mightern
constitutional
t her
not be reasonably altered or modified. Tee right hon.
gentleman (Sir J. Graham) was
authority, and ii he were sitting on the ministerial
benches he .woulti say that nothing was so uuadvieable
with reference to Crown appointments as to deprive the
minister, who was responsible for such appointments, of
tbo power of tatting that course with reference to the
appointments which mieht be desirable. If the words
were retained that responsibility would be taken away,
and no alteration could be made without another act of
Parliament. (gear.)
Mr. WILSON said the argument of the right hon.
gentleman (Ur. Walpole) amounted t) this, that the
principle(n o n o —oof
rc
iofmappept iotiinotnmwe
na
tss t be gwo
era
leftive n up al
open
to
altogether—
(no, i
dectraeti
the object of the clause would be lost. He should cer-
tainly vote with his noble friend (Lord J. Russell).
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL remarked that the
parties who were examined for appointments would have
the same security which
.they at present possessed,
namely, the security of an order is council, until it
should be revekhd or modified, and that could not be
done without inviting the opinion of the Rouse of Com-
mons. He-ventured to think that would be a perfectly
satisfactory security for the
_future, as it had been in
times past. All parties were agreed about the principle
ofmompetitive examination. But as the clause left the
Rouse of Commons the appointments ware vested ip the
Crown, whilst the next line presided that the appoint-
ments should be under a parliamentary title, indc-
Pendent of the Crown. That was a constitutional oh-
j action, and on that groto d be supported the Lords'
amendment. (Hear, hear.)
Sir E. COLEBROOKE had no confidence in the lane
oeage held by the President of the Board of Control as
to the watchfulness of in we Parliaments. It was aeainet
the abuse of future Parliaments that the house bad to
guard, and
dthe trusted the house would reject the Lords'
~r. u
Mri V. SIIITII thought the principle off' competitive'

Sir A. ELTON to move the following resolutions early
next session :—" Ist, That this house, considering that
the law of church rates is productive of frequent' strife
and litigation, and has become a dead letter in an increas-
ing number of parishes, deems it advisable to prohibit
the levying of church rates except for payment of exist-
ing charges on the rates, and to confide the maintenance
of the fabric of the church to the zeal and liberality of
the clergy and la.ty ; 2nd. That in order to affold every
facility for the free exercise of that zeal and lib,raity, it
is expedient that in every parish the incumbent and
church wardens should form a corporation, with power,
not withstanding the mortmain laws, to take and to bold
property grantei, devised,.or bequeathed for the pur-
poses of providing for, the maintenance of the parish
church, and to administer the monies thence arising, as
well as all funds annually contributed, for defraying
church expenses. 3rdly. Tuat the authority of the pre-
vent vestry in every parish, with reference to the parish
church, should be transferred to anew vestry to be natn,d
the ' church vestry,' on consent of parishioners ordinarily
worshipping in the parish church and usually contrihut-
'lag towards defraying the cost of the repAir,s, the present
ves.try retaiLieg its atu.nority in secular affairs. 4thiy.
rust churchwardens should be chosen exclusively
from the members of the church vestry, and should cease
to be overleers. stbly. Tuat all deeds for giving effect
to the purpoeei of these resolutions should be free {tom
stamp duty."
Mr. C. BUTLER, on the part of Mr. Alceck, gave
notice of his intention, early next session, to introduce
a measure for the cornmu'ation of church rtes.
PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE.

Mr: WILSON gave notice that early next s:-Rision he
should move for a select committee to inquire into the
state of the funded and unfunded debt, and the public
income and expenditure, with a view to the adoption of
a system of di-chargiag in time of peace obligations con.,
tracted in time of war.
THE GOVERNMENT AT THE CAPE.

Sir DE L. EVANS gave notice that early next ses-
sion he should call attention to the expediency of con-
tinuing the present sys-em cf double government in our
Afrilan dependencies at the Cape.
JEWELS AND STARS OF TdE ORDER OF THE
BATH.
_ _

Lird HOTHANI gave notice that early next session
he should move an address to the Croxn praying her
Majesty would be pleased to al!ow the jewels-and stars
of the Knights of the Bath t) remain after their deaths
in the possession of their familieF.
MILITARY HOSPITAL AND MEDICAL
SCHOOL.

Sir 11, VERNEY begged to ask—the Royal com-
mission having shown the nenessity fot a general Mill
tary Hospital and Med cal School, and a new hospital
being about to be erected at Aldersho‘tt—woull her Ma-
jesty's Government take into consideration whether this
hospital might not be used for the purpose contemplated 2
by the Royal commission .
General PEEL—Toe question of the establishment of
a General Military Hospital and Medical School is under
the consideration. of the Government, and it will be
dperrosbbaobtlty,
and i
t necessarymaybe hereaftercon si
dteor
ebdu
di l de 9
iari hospital
aibi e
to at
establishAl -
a medical school there. No money, however, had been
voted for the purpose this year.
Sir W. DUSNllBBA.RebeFgBge(l3tCo°asTitLthleNSepc);etary of State
for the Horne Department whether it was the intention
of her Majes'y's Government to take advantage of any
vacancies occurring in the sheriffsbips in Scotland, to
effect the full accomplishment of the Act 16 and 17
Vie., cap. 92, for diminishing the number of sheriffs in
Scotland, by transferring any of the eberiffs of the
counties to be united into one sholiff lom to such other
sheriffdoins as might became vacant by death or promo-
tions, and thus race to the public revenue the salaries
payaile to the former, as was contemplated at the pass-
ing of the Act 16 and 17 Vic., cap. 80, by which the
I salaries of all the sheriffs in Scotland were increased ?
Mr. %VALPULE—I am not aware that any such ex-
pectation has been held out as has been referred t) in
the question of the hon. gentleman. The act of parlia-
ment is quite clear, its provision being that, with refer-
ence to fourteen sheriffd.ous held by fourteen dif-
ferent sheriffs, whenever a vacancy occurs in one,
the holder of the office in another should take the
duties on himself, so that the number of sheriffs may be
gradually.reduced from fourteen to seven in the smaller
counties in Scotland. Some vacascies its the smaller
u:unties have occurred since the passing of the act, and
in six out cf the 14 smaller counties oue sheriff is dis-
charging the dutiei of two couutieo, which makes a re-
duction of three out of the 14 sberiffdoms. The question
v.hicta I suppose the noble baronet wishes to put is, whe-
ther if a vacancy occurs in one of the larger counties, the
sheriff of one of the smaller ones shall be put into the
° so as to enable that small county to be united to
others,filc'' w.th a view to the diminution of the number 7
In any case where a sheriff of a small county is of such
known ability astoat ureeondrer
Li;naadvisable tno ; promote
but
I
to a larger one, that
not advise the crown nut to select the best man to ap-
t pciint to the larger county merely to facilita.te the redec-
dbotion cf the number of sheriffs in the smaller countie..
BEACH OF PRIVIL T
NER EGAE.—HZ ATTORNEY-
GEL.

iMr. SCIiNEIDER wished to put a question to the 1
hdn and learned gentleman the Attorney-General which
involved a clues:int of the breach of the privileges of the
houses. It was his intention to.ha7e brought the matter
forward at length, bat be did not %Tibia to stand between
the proceeding with the India all, d
an he should con
telit himself with asking a question of the hond ano
learned gentleman, and brirg the matter beim the,

examination would be carried out much more effectually
by Act of Parliament than by order in council.
The house then divided. The numbers were—
For the Lords' amendment 6O
Against 73 —l3
The amendment was consequently disagreed to.
Sir DE L. EVANS bad a motion to submit with re-
gard to the scientific arrangements of the army. He
proposed to reinsert the words omitted after the word
"examination," as follow "and the candidates who
may be found entitled under such regulation shall -be re-
commended f,r such cadetships according to the order
of their proficiency, as shown by such examination."
Lord STANLEY said the principle involved in the
amendment of the bon. and gallant member was iden-
tical with the last, and he should therefore not oppose it.
The amendMent was then agreed to.
The Lords'amendments to clause 53 were disagreed to.
On clawe 55,
S'r J. GRA.IIAIII objected to the words " preventing
or," which had been inserted by the Lords, and ap-
proved of the spirit and, objsct of the clause as it had
left the Crinmons. It was fram-d for the purpose of
"repelling" actual invasion. Now all the aggressive
wars in I dia had taken place under the pretext of

good model cost between 2031. and 30.1. ; and its prepare-
tion often reduced a poor artist to the greatesteambaraes-
ment and distress. What would be thought of a sovereign
who, when ill, threw open his case to public competition,
and offered a fee to the physician who gave the best advice?
Or what would have been said if the Earl of Shrewsbury
had attempted to select counsel by open competition?
(Hear.) The fact was, artists felt that this mode of deal-
ing with them was an insult, because it was one pursued with
respect to no other liberal profession. The Nelson Monu-
ment had been put up to competition—was that satisfac-
tory? On the contrary it was as conspicuous a failure as
could be found in nay capital in Europe. (Elear.) Some
of the finest works in art had been produced by competi-
tion, in the sense of noble emulation. It was the rivalry
of Michael Angelo and Raffaelle that lewd produced the
Transfiguration and the Raising of Lazarus. The largest
amount he had heard named for a monument, independent
of a statue, was 10,0,01. ; and he should propose that the
remainder of the money should be spent in purchasing
models. Ha- believed there was an unworthy jealousy of
architec's in the matter of this monument. His noble
friend ha 1 an advantage over those who had gone before
bim in the assistance of Mr. Cockerell, and it was of ha-
portenoe in a work of this kind that the sister arts—archi-
tecture and sculpture—should go together. It was the vice
of artists of the present day that they confined themselves
to particular branches, instead of doing as the first artists
of Italy had done —making themselves acquainted with
every branch. He concurred with Lord Lansdowne that
this ought not to be treated as a departmental question.
He would leave the responsibility, therefore, not to any
department, but to the general government. He saw no
objection to leave the question toe jury of artists In
his reselutien he embodied the pro; oeition that the best
way to create emulation would be to select a number
of distinguiehe I artists, and to pay them for
their trouble, and time, and talent, in preparing models
With regard to extending the competition to foreign
artists, though he should have preferred to make
that competition as aide as possible, it was doubtful
whether, under all the circnmstanc sit would be necessary
to go beyond the limits of these kingdoms Tney had
plenty of money in hand to remunerate them, and if a
number of the most distinguished artists of the country
were selected, with the understanding that they were to
send in designs, for which, whether they were successful
or net, they would be paid, they would create a noble
emulation, and something would be produced worthy of
the country.
Mr. B. HOPE urged that it was desirable 'to have
adopted the principle of competition in this matter; at
the same time that system of unlimited competition often
led to unsatisfactory results, and be gave several amtesing
illustrations of the results of the system. But in these
days much must be hazarded to obtain much, and efforts
should be made to induce our great artists to compete for
national objects. Without analysing the scheme of his
noble friend he thought it was such an one as called for the
modified censure implied in the motion of his right hon.
friend. Why should action be taken on this subject now
at this late period of the session, and why should his noble
friend be called to adopt the questionable and expensive
course of a third competition ? The design of Mr. Stephens
which had been chosen, though rough in execution, bare
marks of genius, and he was one of those artists that ought
to be encouraged ; besides which he was a prizsman,
though not the first. Under all the circumstances it
seemed to him that his noble frien I had come to a wise
decision, and he would urge on his right hon. friend not
to press his motion ; an I he trusted that the Chief Com-
missioner of Works would be able to produce such a monu-
ment to the Duke of Wellington as after ages might ap-
prove.
Mr. CONINGHA.M said he was at a lose to know what
were the views of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Wort-
ley). The right hon. gentleman had in the first place
expressed admiration of the plan for the monument which
had bean adopted ; then he objected to competition for
such purposes; and he concluded by proposing to throw
the designs open to competition.
Mr. S. WORTLEY—OnIy to a limited number of com-
petitors.
Mr. CONINGITAM had understood the right hon.
geatleman to propose a further competition. The monu-
ment selected was the work of a young artist, but it exhi-
bited great ingenuity of design and great vigour of execution.
It w at first proposed to place it in one of the arches of
St. Paul's, but the site had now been changed to the Con-
sistory Court ; but as the Consistory Court was of the
same height as the arches, it would be equally well adapted
for that position. He congratulated the noble lord on the
selection he had made, and he hoped that the right-hon.
gentleman would not press his motion.
Lord J. MANNERS had heard with much gratification
the views which had been expressed by hon. gentlemen
whose opinions wore far better entitled to weight than his
own upon questions of art. He thought that, after the ob-
servations of the hon. member for Maidstone (Mr. Hope),
and the hon. member; for Brighton (Mr. Coninglealc), his
right hon. friend the member for Bute (lir. S. Wortley)
must be satisfied there were gentlemen who were at least
as competent as himself to form a judgment on this subject,
who approved the course adopted by Her Majesty's Govern-
ment. .He was, however, happy to find that upon several
important points he agreed with his right hoe. friend, and
that they only had the misfortune to differ upon matters of
minor importance. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Wort-
ley) had said that he th ug it the selection of a site was
most fortunate; that, so far as the prize designs were con-
cerned, he conceived that the Government had chosen the
best—and that they had taken the most valuable advice
they could obtain. He (Lord J. Manners) pat it to the
house whether they would now take the matter out of the
hands—feeble as he admitted they were—of those who
were responsible for its conduct, and elect themselves into
a committee of taste to upset all the arrangements which
had been made, and to defer for an indefi period the
erection of a national monument to the Duke of Welling-
ton. He hail the misfortune to differ with his right bon.
friend the member for Bute on some minor points. The
ight hon. gentleman admitted that out of the 83 designs
submitted to competition the best had been selected, but
ho said that the terms on which competition was invited
were such as could aive the competitors uo reasonable hope
that any one of them would be selected. He (Lord J.
Manners) certainly did not put the same construction upon
the terms of the notice, which were as fol ows :
"The Commissioners of her Majesty's Works and Pub-
lic Buildings give notice that it is the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to erect a monument in St. Paul's
Cathedral, London, to the memory of the late Duke of
Wellington, and that they are prepared to receive designs
for the same fro n artists of all countries."
Isis right hon. friend might, however, rely upon the con-
cluding paragraph of the notice :
"If, however, the artist to whom the highest premium
may be awarded shall be employe 1 to execute his design he
will not be entitled to receive any premium."
His sight hon. friend had put upon this sentence the inter-
pretation of a lawyer, but he (Lord J. Manners) believed
its meaning was that if any artist who had not received
the highest prize was selected he would be entitled to
a premium in addition- to the prize for the model. He
sail that a great country bad no rght to invite the
artists of all the world to compete unless they were resolved
that that competition should lead to some substantial re-
sult, always provide that among the designs sent in there
was one or more Which were worthy of adoption. (Hear.)
It all turned upon that question. Now, who was to decide
this point? Was his right lion. friend or anybody else in
this house to say that out of the 83 designs sent in not one
was worthy of being executed? [Lord Elcho—" The judges
said so."] They said no such thing. They did not, iudeed,
declare that any one of the designs was worthy of erection;
but though they left this point in the dark, they ad led :
" We cannot at the same time forbear suggesting that
before any design is finally adopted by the Government, it
would be desirable, considering the peculiarity of the situa-
tion contemplated, and that it essentially differs from that
of all the other monuments now existing in the cathedral,
the opinion of some experieneed artists should be called
for, who would be better judges of the local effect than we
consider oureedves to be ; more especially as Mr. Cockerel!,
the only one of the appointed judges professionally con-
nected with the arts, though we have derived from him
valuable assistance and information in the progress of the
examination, has declined on that account taking a part
in the ultimate decision."
It was quite clear that this, the only recommeada4ion
made, authorised the consideration of the local effect Which
wonl,l be produced by the design selected, and su gested
that the Government should confer with those persons
most competent to give advice before arriving at a final
decision. Now, this was exactly the course he had taken.
In the first instance he had satisfied his own mind, as well
as he could, that some one design was worthy of adoption,
and having dine so he invited the gentleman to whom re-
ference had been made in terms of such deserved cowman-
elution carefully to examine the prize de ages. He (Lord
J, Manners) had not indicated the bias of his own mind,
but Mr. Penrose informed him that design No. 18, which
he had previously selected, was the one which, in his
opinion, best suited the locality, and was most deserving of
erection. He thought he should have grossly neglected his
duty if he had not availed himself of Mr. Penrose's as-
sistance ; and if his right hen. friend meant to say that he
had any previous knowledge of this gentleman he laboured
under a comple' e mistake, His (Lord J. Manners') know-
lodge of Mr. Penrose was, if he might use the term, purely
professional; but he felt that the recommendation of the
judges was a sound one, and he knew he could not act upon
it in a more satisfactory manner than by calling for the
valuable advice on which he had acted. Now, he was au-
thorised by Mr. Penrose to say that he should view it as a
great misfortune if this house were in any way to put a
stop to the proceedings instituted with respect tothis mo-
nument. He put it to the house, therefore, after all that
had transpired, consideringe_as Ins right hon. friend hail
pointed out, that six years had elapsed, and that yet no
monument had been erected, whether they would take- the
course of throwing the whole mat ter into inextricable con-
fusion by adopting the proposal now made. The right hon.
gentleman had to certain extent sketched the proceedings
which had taken place, and he would venture to describe
the steps by which,they hail arrived so slowly and unsatis-
factorily at their present position. In 18;4 the then First
1 Commissioner of Works invited a limited competition for
this monument, and selected four, sculptors of undoubted
eminence—Mr. Bailey, Mr. Foley, Baron Marochetti, and
Mr. Gibson. ;Of these gentlemen two declined to enter into
the competition, and Baron Marochetti returned this
answer to Sir William Molesworth :
" I am flattered that my name has lieen placed on the
list of sculptoe' a from whom it has been proposed to select
one to execute the monument to the Duke of Wellington
in St. Paul's Cathedral. I hasten to express to you my
thanks for the honour thus conferred upon me, but I must
decline to engage in.-a...competition in which success would
be only lees paiufnl than failure. If, however, the proposed
competition should not produce the desired result, and if
in such an event I should be judged worthy of employment
on the work, I should with pride bestow on it the utmost
efforts of my art, no less on account of the man who is to
be commemorated, than of the plane the monument is to
occupy."
Mr. Gibson, writing from Rome, sent an answer much
more curt in its terms:—
" I have the pleasure to acknowledge the honour of your
communication to me respecting a monument to the me-
mory of his Greco the late Duke of Wellington. I beg to
say that I anfalways ready to untlertake any work of irn-
pccomrtpanetcietifcon.
for my conniey, but, decline to send designs in
-
Did his right hon. friend-propose to ask those two eminent
men again to compete? {llr. S. Wortley.-- " Not to corn-
Pete] Then, in the.narrie of common sense, what were
they to do ? [Mr. S. Wortley.—".To emula,eo."] To emu-
late ! Well, he was a plain man, and could not apprehend
those nice distinctions, nor did lie think the sculptors
would be less puzzied by them than he was. (Hear) Did
his right hon. frieud mean to say that the offer of 30' /. a-
cbcaidtlayi
notfytchfoas es
a-
piece would make all this distinction between competition
and emulation ? He (Lord J. Manners) net think so
would induce them to
enter into a competition which the invitation of the Go-
vernmentemma lnGs
and Mr. Foley, both sculptors of great eminence, did not
autmselflpmtoorns
eays. to iameiee that the
decline this invitation.—They
entered into the limited
had not induced them to enter. But Mr. Bailey
competition proposed, but what was the result ? The
Goya nment of the day,- no doubt rightly, decided that
neither of the 4 designs wsD w9itby, of being ewated.

"preventing" hostile movements. As instances of this,
he might mention the wars in Affghanistan and Scinde.
If the words inserted by the Lords were allowed to re-
main the clawe would be rendered altogether nugatory.
When the Sikhs passed the Sutlej Lord Hardinge
"repelled" Ihem—drove them back again. That was a
proceeding quite in co3formity with the clause aA it
originally stood. Fanciful threatened invasions met by
a hostile movement beyond the frontier was precisely
the clurse of pro,leeding which had for the last century
led to the most expensive and pri fligate wars. He pro-
po-ed that the Lords' amendments be disagreed to.
Sir F. S VIITEf observed that Lord Hardinge was in-
c'ined ti believe that the Sikhs intended to invade our
territories, and if he had acted upon that, and attacksll
them before they crossed the river, the war would have
been ended much sooner..
General CODRINGTON-said there could be no doubt
that in the case of the assemblage f a force intending
to invade our territories, to attack that force vvoull be
our bast defence.
Lord STANLEY did not think that the preventing
of actual invasion would meet such a case as the Affghan
war, because the Afighan war was carried on at a great
distance from our then frontier. He did not think that

any construction that could be put on these
" Preventing or-repelling actual invasion," could be he'd
to refer to the case of occupation of a country a thou-
sand miles from our own frontier, and which we occupied
because there was a chance that another country might
otherwise obtain mfluence there, and 100 years hence
iavade our territory from that - point. In truth, how-
ever, the value of the clause consisted much more in its
being a declaration of the intention and opinions o
Parliament than ie any binding force of the words them-
selves, because the other word,, " or under other sudden
and urgent necessity," were sufficient to cover almost
every thing, and they rendered alinost superfluous. the
words in question.
Mr. RICH contended that by insertiog the words,
preventing or" they gave power to make unjust attacks
on neighbouring states.
Colonel SYKES thought that the phraseology of the
words of an act of Parliament was not likely to prevent
wars in India. Pa-t history told them that every
Governor-General somehow or other found himself
engaged in a war, and the home Government always
felt themselves compelled to support him.
The house then divided—
For the Lords' amendment . 95
Against it
Majority
Several other of the amendments were then agreed to.
Lord S,anley, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the
Solicitor-General, Lord John Russell, Sir J. Graham,
and one or two others, were then appointed a_committee
to confer with the Lords on the amendments which had
not been agreed to. - - -
PRINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND LOAN BILL.
The order for ihe second reading of this bill was dis-
charged.
TRUSTEES, MORTGAGES, eto., DILL.
The order fur the atcend reading of this bill was alo
discharged.
LEASES A '413 SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES
ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

Oa the order of the day for going into cimmittee on
tLis bill,
Mr. AYRTON said he should Ike to have some fur-
Vier exp anations from the'Attorney-General respecting
this bill, because, when the was in its last sage, a
question was asked whether it was intended by this bill
to enable Sir T. M. Wilson to enclose Hampstead
Heath, and the.Attorney-General said there was no in-
tention. Since thee, however, the hon. member for
Gloucestershire had biven notice of his intention to move
the omission of a clause, the omission of which would
have that effect. • He thought before they went into
committee they ought to have an assurance that the
Government would not carry out that object. It that
question were brought on now, it would take the house
by surprise.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL raid he stated the
other night with perfect sincerity tbat he bad no inten-
tion whatever, in cartyiug this bid tnrough the house, of
introducing, or being the medium of introducing, any
alteration in the law which would have the effect appre-
hended by the hon. gentleman.
Mr. GILPIN said they ought to have an assurance
from the Government that they would not support this
Many who hal depended ou its not being
br e,ght f and were not present.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that he had
no ; utbority from her Majesty's Government to give
any assurance of the kind, but he had no in ention to
support such a proposition.
Mr. ROEBUCK did not object to the proposition,
but there were circumstances under which even a good
thing ought net to be done, and he should oppose taking
the hou-e by surprise.
' Mr. RULT said no one would more deprecate taking
the house by Surprise than he should, and under the
circumstances he should withdraW his amendment.
After a few words from Mr. WHITESIDE and Mr. Cox
the house went into committee, and the various causes
were agreed to.
Mr. ROLT observed, with reference to the 21st clause,
the object t f which is to prevent the act applying to
cases in which application has been made to Pa rliament,
that though fur the reasons he had stated he ahoui I not
now move the omission of the clause, he should take
the first opportunity of remedying the injustice which
he conceived that clause inflicted.
Mr. MALINS remarked that the clause in reality
was aimed at an individual. It was exceptional legisl a
Lion, and was unjust.
The house then reenmed.
COWLEY'S CHARITY BILL.

The-Lords' reasons for di-agreeing to the Omen:ions'
amendments to teis bill were considered, and it was re-
solved that the amendments by this house be not inuisted
The International Patent Right Bill passed through
upoa.
committee, was read a third time, and passed.
Tne Administration of Oaths by Couaimttees Bill was
read a third time and passed.
VACCINATION (IRELAND) 'BILL.
Certain of the Lerds' amendments were not agreed to,
and a committee was appointed to draw up reasons wby
the bonze ~issented.
THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT.
Mr S. WORTLEY called the attention of the house to
the competition relative to the monument to the late Duke
of Wellington, and moved " that, by the terms of the c .m-
-petition under which the models for the monument pro-
posed
to be erected to the memory of the late Duke of Wel-
lioeten in St. Paul's Cathedral were lately exhibited in
Westminster Hall, the artists competing were no entitled
to expect that any of their worksovould be executed at the
expense of the nation unless on the ground of their intrin-
sic merit ; and whereas the judges had not recommended
for execution any of the works so exhibited, and a new
and wholly different site had since been determined upon
for this great national monument, it was therefore expe-
dient that a limited number of distinguished artists should
be further employed by her Majesty's Government to fur-
nish_ models with special reference to the new site and
altered circumstances, and that those artists should be re-
moderated for their labour, and their models purchased
for the country." The right hon. gentleman observed that
in bringing forward this resolution, he was only express-
log the strong feeling of dissatisfaction which prevailed
both in the house and out of doors with reference to the
course which he believed was about to be adopted. No-
thing could be further from his wish, however, than to
embarrass his noble friend (Lord J. Ajanners) ; on the con-
trary, be hoped to afford a valuable assistance to his noble
friend and the Government by enabling them to ascer-
tain with more precision what the opinion of the public
really was on the subject. The late competition had not
produced a single model or design which had been adopted
for execution ; but he understood his noble friend to en-
trust the work not to the that prizeman, Mr. Marshall, but
to Mr. Stephens, a prize:Din who did not stand higher than
the sixth. That was a course which he did notlesitate to
say had filled every one with suiprise. It was true that by
the terms of the competition the Government were not
bound to give the commission to the gainer of the first
pries ; but an intimation was certainly given to the com-
petitors that such would probably be the cane. He under-
stem 1 that what was proposed was to adopt Mr. Stephens'
design, but to employ Mr. Marshall to execute the sculp-
ture. He (Ur. Wortley) was quite,prepared to agree with
his noble friend that Stephens 6 model was a very
graceful one ; but at the same time Mr. Stephens 'a name
was new to the world both as an architect and as a sculp-
tor. It would surely, therefore, be a very bold thing to
entrust to the mere designer of a graceful model the reepon-
sibility of carrying out a work like the present. The truth
was the judges all concurred that there was not one of the
models exhibited that was worthy of being executed ; and
they had been deterred from reporting in those very terms
by nothing but consideration for the artists. Since the
designs had been exhibited, the site of the proposed monu-
ment had been changed. Before, it was proposed to place
it under one of the nave niches ; but now it bad been de-
termined to devote to the purpose one of the chapels of the
cathedral. He (Mr. S. Wortley) rejoiced at the change;
and ho hoped that,' at no distant polled, monuments to
other distinguished men would be erected in subordina-
tion to, but still associated with, that of the Great Cap-
tain. Among those none could be more fitting then a
monument to Lord Raglan, and be hoped that the national
gratitude a ould ere long do justice to the memory of one
who had sacrificed his life to, the public service at an age
when ho might have looked .6rward to many years of wal-
e:treed repose. '(Cheers.) .
Jut the first instance, applica-
I tious to furnili-designs Mr. the Wellington Monument had
been made to four of the, meat eminentartists in this coun-
try --Mr. Bailey, MreFeley,iMi. Gibson, and Baron Mare-
-1 ehetti. The two first complied with the request; but the
1 too last declined, on the ground that they slid not take
part in competition of any kind, Baron Marochetti re-
in Irking that in a competition to succeed was only less pain-
ful than to fail. Messrs. Bailey and Foley's designs were
not considered sitisfactory, and they applied to tho go-
vernment for more' Precise information as to what was
wanted. The government -of the day, instead of answer-
ing the question, determined oar a public competition.
Ile (Mr. Woolley) did not altogether regret that the com-
petition had taken- place, but he must, at the same time,
express his opinion that such a mode of proceeding v:as
only unfair to the profesaion, but absolutely:And,

P-
Now, in the office of the First Commissioner of Works was He thought the best thing for the Minister would be to
a most valuable and important reply from the pen of Mr. call into council all the distinguished artists, whether they
Bailey to the letter which announced this decision to him. joined in the competition or not. His noble friend would
Mr. Bailey pointed out all the evils which must result to do well to put aside his present design, and ask the artists
art if, when a limited competition was entered upon, none of this and foreign countries who had othad.not succeeded
of the designs sent in were selected for execution. He 'to send their designs, not with a view td obtaining_ prizes ,
(Lord J. Manners) wished he hal found it possible to or any such regulations. Under these circumstances,
present to the house prior to this debate Ur. Bailey's let- there was nothing to injure the pride of any distinguished
ter and other papers relating to this subject, but as they man. It would be far better to have no work at all than
were rather in the nature of private letters than of pub- have a work which was not worthy of the nation. They
lie papers; he hardly felt justified in so d dug. The whole had better say distinctly that they had found no one Man
tone and tenour of Mr. B communication, how- who could erect such a work that was worthy the nation,
ever, were such as would make him very reluctant to in- than have a statue which was not worthy of the nation.
vita any limited competition without a clear decision Mr. MACARTHY remarked that there was no instance
beforehand that, whatever might be merits of the designs of a man on horseback having been allowed to enter a
sent in, one or the other should b, selected. (Hear, hear.) temple.
Mr. .Bailey pointed out that by inviting artists to enter Mr. WORTLEY said he understood that under no cir-
into such a competition, and then throwing their designs curnstances would the authorities of St. Paul's allow a
over and instituting an unlimited competition, you gave to figure of a person on horseback to be erected in St. Paul's.
the second competitors the inestimable advantage of pilfer- He did not undervalue hr. Penrose, but he did not think
lug ideas from those who hid first sent in designs. (Hoar.) he was so well known that the public would like to have
Bat now apply the objection taken with so much force by the work committed to him and Mr. Stephens. Through-
Mr. Bailey in a case where only two designs were in ques- out tbis debate he had been represented as recommending
tion to this new proposal of a second limited competition a second limited competition. He recommended no such
after no less than 83 designs had been submitted for corn- thing. What he recommended was that they should, as
petition. (Hear.) Was it not clear that those whose de- his hon. friend the member for Pontefract said, set aside
signs had thus stood the test of public criticism might all that bad taken place at the competition, which had
fairly say, " You have no right now to hand over the corn- utterly failed in producing any worthy design, but that
petition to a limited number of gentlemen, selected by the they should excite emulation by employing the principal
favouritism of the Government of the day, when there is artists who were known in Europe to send in designs,
a possibility that they may pick here and there from the making it certain that tho best design would be adopted,
designs which have cost us BO much thought, labour, time, and then ho had the best reason for believing that there
and money, expended by some of the poorest and most was not one of them who would not produce a design.
struggling artists in the world ?" He had heard that sea- The house then divided—
tence of the speech of the right hon. gentleman with the For the motion.
greatest pleasure. It was just, and be asked the House of Against• it
Commons to act in accordance with it. His right hon. Majority
friend pointed out what these struggling artists were called SUBALTERNS OF THE ARMY.
upon to do—what sacrifices of time, labour, anti money Colonel FREESTUN then moved that an humble ad-
were entailel upsn them ; and he asked th 4, in return, dress be presents tto her Majey, praying that she- will'be
the House of Commons should not, without the most graciously pleased to take into consideration the unfivour-
weighty considerations, set aside their designs. He asked able position of the subalterns of the army with a view
his right hon. friend whether he thought he heti assigned of affording them relief. The expenses to which subalterns
any satisfactory r: aeon for departing on this occasion from were put amounted to 1571. a year, while their pay was
what ought to be the general rule? They bad not heard only 951. Other expenses were thrown upon them by re-
his right hon. friend say that he was himself of opinion moved from place to place. He would suggest that an
that the design which had been selected was unworthy of addition of is. 6d. a day should be made to the pay of the
being completed. The right hon. gentleman told them subalterns, which would only entail an increased expense
that he bad privately canvassed all the judges, and that of 8:,0001. a year.
they had all told him they signed their report without in- Mr. P. O't3RIEN seconded the motion.
ten ling to have their approbation of any one of the Sir W. FRASER said the motion met with his entire
designs acted upon. All he could say was, that if concurrence. He thought that great relief might be afforded
such were the case, it was the duty of the to subalterns by the Government taking upon itself the
judges to have made that clear before all the world. furnishing of their rooms, which might be done at a com-
(Hear, hear.) He could find no such declaration in their paratively small cost. He considered, too, that subalterns
report. On the contrary, after reading the report with the ought nut to be called upon to subscribe to the regimental
most minute care he could bestow, he had arrived at the bands. Fe regarded the mess as a valuable institution, as
opposite conclusion. In private the judges had not told tending to promote a good feeling amongst brother officers,
him anything of the sort, and he thought the House of • and he thought that their pay ought to be such as to enable
Commons would do well not to act upon these private re- them to afford the expense. At the same time he suggested
commendations, which those who made them declined to that it would be better to bring forward the subject on
put in print. (Hear.) As he believed the report of the another and more favourable occasion. (Hear, hear.) •
judges, he felt fully justified in the course which he had Sir F. SMITH moved the adjournment of the debate.
taken ; and the more he gathered the opinions of those Mr. WEfirHEA.D and Sir W. COMINGTON expressed
who were able to speak with authority upon the subject, their opinion that the pay of subalterns was ludicrously
the more he was fortified in the decision at which he had inadequate.
arrived. He believed that the opinion which he had al- General PEEL trusted the gallant colonel would see
ready quoted of Mr. Penrose was shared by men in the that at this period of the session it was impossible to en-
highest position in artistic circles. He believed that if tertain the subject, and that he would bring forward the
the Rouse of Commons del not now interfere her Ma- subject again early next session. (Hear, hear.)
jetty's Government would be able at no distant period to Colonel FREESTUN then withdrew his motion.
fford the gratification to the people of this country of see- EQUITABLE COUNCILS OF CONCILIATION.
ing; in the noblest site which St. Paul's Cathedral pre- Mr. MACKINNON obtained leave to bring in a bill on
stinted a monument erected worthy alike of the great man this subject.
whom it commemorated and the building in which it was The house adjourned at twenty minutes to 1 till 4 o'clock
placed. (Cheers.) But if at the fag end of the session, in on Thursday.
a house so thin as that which he was now addressing, his
tight hon. friend induced the House of Commons to pass
this resolution, it would paralyse the hands of the Execu-
tive and of the artists as well, and trace over again the un-
fortunate history of so many of the public monuments of
England. (Hear, hear.) The Government would be re-
luctant, under those circumstances, to take upon them-
selves any responsibilityin those thorny matters of art, and
artists would be disgusted at the manner in which they
were treated in being asked to enter again into a limited
competition without any certainty that any one of the com-
petitors would be employed. They had been invited to a
limited eompetition with no result; they had been invited
to an unlimited competition with worse than no result ;
and it was propose t to invite them to a second limited
competition with no certain prospect—be would say, with
no hope—of any fortunate result. His right hon. friend
indulge! in a dream if ho supposed the Prime Minis-
ter, burdens I as he was with affairs of state, would under-
take to go from studio to studio. attended by a jury of
artists, all differing in opinion, all anxious to carry out
their own views, and some very possibly biassed by per-
sonal considerations in favour of one or other of the com-
peting sculptors. The Prime Minister must from necessity
devolve the responsibility upon the Minister whose duty
it was, from the nature of his office, to make the selection
in a case of this kind; and he trusted and almost be-
lieved his right hon. friend, whose whole speech was
characterised with so much kindness and courtesy to him-
self, did not intend to press his motion to a dividon. Ho
thought the house would be ill-advised if they passed the
resolution, and he entreated them not to agree to it., but to
leave the matter in the hands of the responsible Ministers
of the Crown, who, after two competitions, felt themselves
in a position to arrive at a final decision, which they be-
lieve I would be satisfactory to the country. (Ile r, hear )
His hon. friend the member for Brighton had alluded to
the expediency of placing on the proposed site a model of
the full size of the monument. The proposal was most
a Imitable, and should he be intrusted with the future
prosecution of the task it was his intention to propose to
Mr; Stephens that a model of that character should be
erected in the Consistory Chapel, so that before anything
was finally decided thbse who took au interest in the ques-
tion might have an opportunity of examining it. • If • the
result of that exhibition should be to show that Mr.
Stephens was not competent to execute the chief figure of
the design, it was the wish of Mr. Stephens that Her
Majesty's Government should only leave to him the execu-
cation of the design and appoint some other artist to exe-
cute the figure. Frankly, he had no fear himself that a man
of genius, as Mr. Stephens had shown himself to be, would
fail in that articular; but, in justice to the modesty and
good feeling of a young and rising artist, he mentioned that
Mr. Stephens had expressed no objection to the proposal, and
that it met with his entire approbation. (Hear) If the
House thought him unworthy of the position in which
Her Majesty had been pleased to place him be should
of course bow to their decision ; but ho thought he had
shown that the tour: e which he had adopted was consistent
with tho views of those who bad the best means of forming
a sound opinion. He was satisfied himself that if no inter-
ference now took place, and if the Government were per-
mitted to carry out those intentions which they had indi-
cated, the result would be success; but if, on the other
hand, impediments were thrown in the way, there would
be interminable delay, constant bickerings, and their sue-
' eessors would say there had been a complete mistake in
the management of that which ought to be one of the
greatest monuments of a great nation (Cheers.)
Mr. CO WPEIt said, the reasons assigned by Lord John
Manners for the course he had taken were not satisfac-
tory to his mind. When competition was invited pre-
ference should be given to the most successful. The monu-
ment now to be erected was not that competed for ; if tie-
signs were called for adapted to the new site, a far better
would be obtained than the one chosen.
Mr. STIRLING was not convinced by the arguments of.
Mr. Wortley, and should vote against the motion.
Lord ELCHO said the q untion they had to consider was
not so much a question of art as a question of common sense.
Ho could not agree in the opinion that his noble friend had
adopted the wisest course in reference to this monument.
Lord Lansdowne had stated in the House of Lords that none
of the models possessed such commanding merit as to win
the decided approbation of the judges, and that he believed
was the opinion of the pubic. (Hear.) Why then should
they ho compelled to adopt any one of these models ? The
competition was a signal failure. His noble. friend con-
demned his own scheme, for he did not propose to give the
execution of the work to the first p:izemen, but the
sixth and not him alone, but to him and two others,
namely, Mr. Penrose and Mr. Marshall, There was an
of i saying, that too much cooking Toiled the broth,
and he was afraid that this might be the result in the
present instance. He believed the truth to be that
his noble friend was fond -of a quiet life, and that for
that reason he gave to three persons instead of one the
execution of this monument. He denied that they
were bound in spirit, or in letter, or in honour, to accept
any of the designs submitted to public exhibition. (Hear,
hear.) He was in favour of the principle of competition,
and it was because he was in favour of competition that he
thought the Government acted on a bad principle in this
matter. The object was to erect a suitable monument to
the memory of the Duke of Wellington. He did not think
the Government adopted the bast course to secure that
object. He was afraid that the result might bo the erec-
tion of a monster monument, such as that in Hyde Park.
Sir B. HALL said, when he held the office ef First Com-
missioner of Works, he suggested to the Government that
they should have recourse to unlimited competition with
regard to the monument proposed to be erected to the
memory of the Duke of Wellington There had previously
been a limited competition. as stated by his hon. friend
(Mr. Wortley), under which Ur. Foley and Mr Bailey had
sent in designs which were not deemed worthy of adoption
by the G vernment, Then it was that be (Sir B. Hall)
proposed to resort to unlimited competition ; and, looking
at the object in _view, and the large sum of money that
was to 13 i expended upon it, he thought that the best prin-
ciple on which' the house or the Government could act.
(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been male to the terms of
the competition issued from the Office of Works, an I to
their being strongly guarded. They were peculiarly
guarded, because he-folt, where the competition was aeso-
Intely unlimited, it might be possible in a case of this kind
that persons might be capable of sending in very pretty
design's, calculated to strike the eye, but who might be
incapable of car-tykes out those designs in marble or any
other material. which might be decided upon. (Hear,
hear.) The suggestion he had made resulted in the ex-
hibition of designs which were seen in Westminster-hall.
They had two exhibitions cf designs there, and he never
saw- so great a contrast as that between the designs
exhibited for the public offices and those fur the Wel-
lington Monument. (Hear,- hear ) He admitted that the
exhibition of designs for the Wellington Monument
was a failure. That opinion was confirmed by the
judges, and, he believed, by the public at large. (Hear.)
In a competition of that nature he thought it was the duty
of the Government to give the execution of the design to
one of the successful competitors, provided—and he wished
that to be understood—there was the conviction on the
part of those who bad to decide, that the talent'displayed
in the competition and the known practical experience of
the competitors, afforded to the public a sufficient necurity
for the successful and proper execution of the work in the
event of its being entrusted to any one of them. With re-
gard to the site, he begged to remind the house that at first
the only site that could be procured was under ne of the
arches. Since that time the Consistory Court bad become
vacant, and it had been placed at the disposal of the noble
lord. Now, it had struck biro very forcibly that the de-
sign which had been prepared for one part of the buildirig
could not with any propriety be put, up in another part of
the building for which it was in no way adapted. (Hear.)
He believed it would be extremely difficult so to alter the
design as to make it suitable for the Consistory Court.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord had stetod that before any-
thing was doge he would have the model exhibited ; he
hoped that in the meantime he would reconsider the whole
subject. With that understanding he thought they should
leave the responsibility with the Government. . He knew
the extreme ttifficultiesevhich the noble lord had to undergo
in this ,department, and, be would be the last man to do
anything to increase thosedifficulties. He entreated bite,
however, to consider fully.ibis 'subject, and if he should
see that the model as now designed really could not be put
into the chapel with effect, then let him communicate
either with them:weariful competitors or with other artists,
so that the monument might 'be put up as speedily as pos-
sible. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. MILNES was afraid they must come to the con-
elusion that the competition for the best design for this
monument was a failure, and he thought they should
consider what was bait to be done outside that mapetitiou.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

Jollifie, Sir W.
Taylor, Colonel

BIRTHS.
COLLIER—On the 25th.inat., at .itepthill-square, the wife

of John Pycroft Collier, Eaq., of a son. -
DE BY LANDT—On the 24th inst., at 33, Brompton-cres•
cent, the Countess Alfred de Bylandt, of a son.
Pon-rsiuo_unr—:On the 24th inst., at Hurstbourne-Pglll-'
the Countess of Portsmouth, of a daughter.
PAST DR—OP the 27th inst., at Hill Farm, long DittoO!
Airs. Henry Pasteur, of a daughter.

MARRIAGES.
BROMMEAD —LAKE— On the 24th inst:, at St. Pencils
Church, Jonathan Crawford Bromehead, of Old Brood'
street, and of Highgate, Esq., to Ellen, second daugh7
tor of the late John Lake, Esq., of Lincoln's-inn.
STRIDE DoRELI—On the2lst inst. atSt MathiasChurer
Stoke Newington, W. S. Stride, 'Esq., of West Smith
field, to Priscilla, only daughter of the late John Dore°,
Esq., of Kingston, Oxon.
DEATHS.
BRAWN—On the 26th lust ,at Cookhara Deane, Berl‘°'
Anne,- wife of James D. Brown, aged 43.
CHANCELLOR—On the 25th inst., at Boston, Lincoltishirei
Charles Chancellor' eldest sou'of Thomas Chancellor, °
Kensington, Kingston-on-Thames, and Beading, B°1;1'

aged 41.
Dourisr—On the 25th May, at Murree, Capt. Henry Me!°
.
Doris,7th N. 1., eldest and only surviving sun of Jot.
Alex. Doris, Esq., late Member of the Council of DOW
MAEKEs_—On the 25th inst., Mr. Thomas Maikes, ..f 26'
Foley-street, Portland-Place.
ONsr,ow —On the 27th May, at Madras, Adolphus, 133"!1.,
Onslow-,-2d Madras E.L.1.; eldest surviving son of Mar
G. W. Onslow, Madras Artillery, aged 26. b
TARLETox-- -Oa the 25th inst., George Ilawkes Ober
Tarleton, Esq., aged 48.

LONDON: Printed and Published by MIJILDO ful-jl4'
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at-Tho SU* alDoe* 14"°;
112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy. in the COG?'"
of iti.bileses, Wednee tar, sTtily 28,1.858..

HOUSE OF COMMONS—JULY 27.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 3) BILL.
Order for consideration of Lords' amet dments read. Amend-
ment, page 9, at the end of clause 27, read a second time :
—Amendment proposed, to insert after the words " com-
municated to," the words " a committee consisting of •
four :"—Question, "That those words be there inserted,"
put, and negatived :—Motion made, and question put, •
" That this house doth agree with the Lords in the said
amendment ;"—The house divided; Ayes 38, Noes 106.
AYES-38.
Adeane, H. Greene, John Russell, Lord J. •
Anderson, Sir J. Gregson, Samuel Smith, A.
Berkeley, lion. H. Grenfell, Charles W. Sykes, Colonel
B ake, J. Griffith, C. Thompson, General
B mham-Carter, J. Knatelibull-Huguessen Thornely, T.
Clay, James Mangles, B. D. Verney, Sir H.
Coninghain, W. Meigund, Lord White, James
Cox, W. Nisbet, R. P. Williams. W.
Dunbar, Sir W. Pigott, F. Willoughby, J.
Dunlop, A. Puller, Christopher Wilson, J.
East, Sir J. Rawii^son, Sir U.

Elphinstone, Sir J. Rich, 11. TELLERS.
Elton, Sir A. H. Ridley, George Ayrton, A.
Forster, Charles Roupell, W. Bowyer, G.

NOES-106.
Arbuthnott, Gen. H. Gilpin, C. Pakington, Sir J.
Bagsh.tw, Robert Graham, Sir J. Palmerston, Viscount
Bailey, C. Greer, Samuel Patten, Col.
Baillit' li. Grogan, Edward Peel, Gen.
Bernard, W. Gurdon, Brampton Pilkington, J.
Bass, M. Hall, General John Pritchard, J.
Beach, W. Hamilton,' Lord" Claud Scott, Major
Beecrolt, G. Hamilton, G. A. Sibthorp, Major
Blakemore, T. Hankey, T. Smith, V.
Boldero, Col. H. G. Hardcastie, Joseph Smith, Sir F.
Brady, J. Hardy, G. Spooner, R.
Bridges, Sir B. Hatchet!, John Stanhope, J.
Bruce, El. A. Hope, Alexander Stanley, Lord
Buchanan, Walter Hallam. Lord. Stapleton,John
Burghley, Lord Hume, W. Stuart, Colonel
* .
Bader, ,ir J. Jervoise, Sir J. Sullivan. Michael
Butler, C. S. Johnstone, H. B. Turner, J. A.
Cairns. I. Kali, Sir F Vance, John
Campbell, It. Kinnaird, A. Vansl ttart, W.
Cecil, Lord .R. Knight, F. Verner, Sir W.
Cla-k, J. Knox, Col. B. W. Villiers, C.
•
Codrington, Gen. Langton, H. G. Walcott, Admiral.
•
Colebrooke, Sir E. Lennox. Lord H. G. Walpole. S.
Col-ins, T. Lov ;line. Lord Warren, S.
Cooper, E. J . Lowther, Col- H. C. Watkins, Col.
Corry, IL T. L. Lygon, Hon. F. Westhead, Joshua
Cross, R. A. Lytton, Sir E. Whiteside, J.
Davie, Sir IL K. F. Mazartney, George Whitmore, U.
Disraeli, B. Manners, Lord J . Willcox. B.
Duff, M. Maxwell, J. Willyams, E.
Evans, Sir De Lacy Mills, Arthur Yorke, B.
Far mhar, Sir M. Naas, Lord Young, A.
Fitzgerald, W. H. S. Newark, Viscount
Forrester, Col. Newport, Viscount
Freestun, Colonel Norreys, Sir D.
Gard, It. Northcote, Sir S.
Garnett, William O'Brien, P.

TKLLE3B.

Amendment in page 14, line 23, read a second time :—Ques-
tion put, "'That this House doth agree with the Lords in
the said amendment :"—The house divided; Ayes 60, "
Noes 73. •

_. _ _ . _.
AYES-60.
Adderley, C. - Hamilton, Lord. C. Patten, Col. W. • "
Bailey, C. Hamilton, G. A. Peel, Gen.
Bernie, H. Harty, G. Bolt, J.
Bernard, Col. Hope, I. Sibthorp, Major
Beach, W. Hotham, Lord Smith, Sir F.
Beecrott, G. Home, W. Spooner, R.
Blakemore, T. Kelly, Sir F. Stanhope, J.
polder°, Col. H. G. Knox. Col. B. W. Stanley, Lord
Bridges, Sir B. Lennox, Loid H. Stirling, William
Burghley, Lori Lovaine, Lord • Sturt, Col.
Cairns, H. • • Lygon, Hon. F. Vansittart. W.
Codrington, General_ Lytton, Sir G. Verner,Sir W. )
Corry, H. T. L. Maeartney, G. Walcott, Admiral
Cubitt, W. Malins, it. Walpole, S. ~
Disraeli, B. Manners, Lord J. Warren, 8. • t
East, Sir J. Milnes, H. Whiteside. J.
Farquhar, Sir M. Naas, Lord Whitmore, 11. .
,
Fitzgerald, W. U. S. Newport, Viscount wittioughoy,z.•:
Forester, Col. North, Col. J. ristitzs,S.
Gard, It. North cote, sir S. Jolliffe, Sir W.
Gaskell, J. Pakington, Sir J. Taylor, Col. • • "
NOES-73. . . .
Adeane, IT. Garnett, W. Ridley, G.
AS royd, E. Gilpin, Charles Russell, Lard J.
Bathes, Rt. Hon. M. Graham, Sir J. Schneider, H.
Bass, ii. Greene, J. SnelleY, Sir J. .
Bethell, Sir R. Greer, S. Smith, R. V. . ,
Blake, J. Gregson, S. Smith, A.
Buckley, Gen. Griffith, C. Somerville, Sir W.
Butler, C. Hankey, T. Stapleton, J.
Calaitt, M. Batchell, J. Sykes, Col.
•
Campbell, It. Kinnaird, A. Thompson Gen.
Clifford, Cs( . Luce, T. Thornely,':T.
Cobbett, J. M. Macarthy. A. 'i urner. J. C.
Coke, W. , • ' Mangles, R. Vance, J.'
Coletutike, Sir T. Melgund, Viscount Verney, Sir H.
Collins. I. Mils, Arthur Villiers,C.
Coningham, W. • Moffatt, G. Westhead, J.
Cowper, W. F. Morris, D. White, J.
Cox, William Nisbet, Robert Williams, W.
Cranfurd, E. H. j. Norreys, Sir D. Williams, Sir 'W
C. os ~ B. O'Brien, P. Wilson, J.
Davie, Sir ,11. R. F. Paget, C. Young, A.
Dodson, J. Pigott, F.
Dunbar,Sir W. Pilkington, J. MUMS. •
Eit,,n, Sir A. Palle , C.
.
Evans, Sir De Lacy Rawlimon, Sir H. Forster, C.
Freestun, Col. Rich, tr. Knatchbull-HagesSen

SWEARING IN OF THE NEW CITY 'CHAMBERLAIN.--"
Yesterday the Lord Mayor ' presided over a Court Of
Aldermen, held at Guildhall, when it was announced to
the court, by the proper officers, that the euretite for •
the bin 's in the case of the newly elected City Chain'
ooriain were found to he good and sufficient, and Mr•
Scott was eo •n •after wards introducrd into court sad
sworn into office in the usual form. There was no °Ws
hm-ive.s (,f imnortance.
[ADVERTISEMENT.]—Holloway's Ointment and Pills wok
d dully efficacious for the euro of bid legs, sores, and wounds,
even if of 20 years' staudind.—The number uf cures effected
by the-e remedies would appear ine.edible if they were 124
vouched for by the patients themselves, who, grateful for the
benefits derived from their use, permit the facts to appear“
before the public. These remedies, if used conjoint y,
cure old wounds, ulcers, and scrofulous sores,. after all other
means have proved unsuccessful. The Pills also are an ad-
mirable restorative of debilitated consti utious. They.create
appetite, reduce the superfluity of bile, and remove the causes
of palpitation of the heart. Sold by all medf. tie vendors
throughout the world ; and at Professor Holloway's °stab.
lishment, 244, Strand, London.