The Sun.
London, England, 1804-06-19 00:00:00

it duty to urge, The Country
:Ong in a state of War, that there
Je:T;!,crf, in the Howe who were not
t-(:olleit all the trouble and difficulty
he Country experienced to
the Militia ; but those who

n

- u,;h 'o remember that, would hesitate
be, re they would lay, as a permanent additional duty
upon Parish Officers, a task so much more burden-
some than the old Militia was. He remembered
that when, in time of Peace, two.thirds only
of the Militia were to be called out for the pur-
poses of training, the Magistrates did not raise the
other third, on account of the great difficultyin getting
the men, although the ballot was then in force. He
did not conceive that it was possible entirely to get
rid of the ballot, and had a much higher opinion
of the men now raised under it than many Gentle..
men seemed to entertain. He thought the Militia
Regiments were fit for any service, and had a good
deal of experience in every thing, except absolutely
opposing an Enemy, but that was a disadvantage
common to it with many Regiments of the Line ; for
example, a Regiment might be several years in Gib.
raltar, without learning, from any atlual experience,
how., to combat an Enemy in the field. He consi.
dered the Force now to be raised, as an expensive
substitute for the Militia, but without its consti-
tutional. advantages ; he approved of the Militia,
and did not wish to see it destroyed; he, therefore,
opposed the Bill.
Mr. SOMERS COCKS said, that the grounds upon
which he disapproved of the aCts of the late Admi-
nistration were, that he did not think there was
energy and exertion in their measures suitable to
the condition of the Country. When the present
Bill was brought forward, under the auspices of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, for whose great talents he
felt so high a respeti, and to whom he was attached
by old habits, he felt much inclined to support the
measure, as coming from such authority. He there.
fore had supported the Bill in its former stages, not
baying sufficient time for attentive consideration ;
but now he had thoroughly examined the Bill, he
could by no means think it such a measure as the ex-
igency ofthe Country called for, nor as he expe6ted
from- the great talents of the Right Honourable
Gentleman ; he felt himself under the necessity
of opposing it. As to the large number of men who
he heard were to he raised by the operation of this
Bill, he doubted very much that it would ever pro-
duce the efFea that was promised from it ; and as to
the ground is hick had been so much relied upon,
that this measure would destroy competition in
the Reetuiting Service, he could not see how this
was to be done. Every: Parish was first to raise
its grata if it could, within its own limits ; but if
they could not, they might offer their Bounties to
persons out of their parish, which is what they cet.
tainly would do to save their fines : instead of an
individual competition, there would be a compe.
tion of Parish against Parish, which would produce
the same effea in the bounties on the general Recruit.,
ing Service. He did not consider that it was upon
the Parish Officers that the burden would principally
fall; the Farmer and the Gentleman would be call-
ed on for their subscriptions to raise the number
in which the Parish were deficient. The grand
argument then of competition being hereby prevent-
ed, was entirely done away. The next point that
was spoken of as an important advantage was, the
abolishing the ballot : he had heard much upon this
subjea, and had himself witnessed many of the evils
resulting from it, which no man deprecated more
than himself ; but it was by no means suffieie..t to
point out that the ballot is in some instances oppres.
sive, it is necessary to shew that a sufficient force
could be raised to provide for the security of the
Cruntry
,without a ballot : he had often considered
that sohjea, and never could find any remedy
for the evils complained of. As to the present
Bill, although it professed to do away the bal-
lot, yet it recognized the necessity of compul
sion in another shape. The fines which were to be
imposed on the Parishes that did not furnish their
quota, were also a species of compulsion, which, he
thought, was worse than the ballot. In the
ballot there was something more of equality ;
it was an equal chance whether the ballot
would fall on A, or B ; but under the system
that this Bill introduces, the burden must fall
exclusive ly on the Parishes by a rate, which he con-
ceived must operate as a double Land Tax. This, in
filet, appeared to him a Bill not intended for the put.
pose of raising men but money, and doing that in a
most indirea way, by professing a thing very diffe-
rent from the real objet}. There was another ob.
jeCtion he felt very strongly to this measure, namely, '
that by entirely taking away the Ballot, there is to
be taken away, at the same time, those exemptions
which certainly have produced a very powerful effea
in placing the Country in its present state of secu_
rity and defence. He knew that a very great pro..
portion of the Volunteers were actuated by motives
of the purest patriotism, and were induced to offer their
'services from no other motive but the Defence of
the Country ; but there were certainly a great
many on whom the exemptions granted to Volun.
seers produced a concurrent influence. To speak
the truth, this principle certainly did operate very
extensively on a considerable number of the Volum.
leers; and if the Ballot was at once taken away, ,
and all those exemptions which were now given as
a privilege to Volunteers, made common to every
body, it would he extremely probable that this
would materially diminish the number of Volunteers,
who would then have no personal motive left to in-
duce them to continue. Thinking then that this
Bill might, in its operation, very much weaken the
present Defensive FOrce of the Country, without
holding out any prespea of material service, he felt
himself under the necessity of expressing his disap-
probvion to the principle of it, and should vote
•
agair6: it.
Mr. Serjeant BEST considered the Bill as likely
to produce, in its consequences, the greatest mis-
chiefs, and on the other hand lie did not see any good
that could be expected from it. The Hon. Gen.
tismso sel,a Lad just sat down had, in his opinion,
completely answered those arguments upon which the
Biel had hitherto been supported; and left him but
littie nz w to urge. He begged, however, that the
House would cots der that it was for the defence of
our liberties :!:at .everal Plans had been presented to
them, and it ' wc., Id, perhaps, be too much, in the

first instance, to ask them to sacrifice the Constitu.
tion. The Bill, in the shape which it now appeared,
after the different Amendments and Clauses which
the Right Hon. Gentleman had introduced, was so
very different from what it was when first pre-
sented, that if he had not heard the Right Hon.
Gentleman say, that he originally intended the
Bill should run as it does at present, he could not at
all have believed it. It appeared now that this great
permanent Force of 74,000 men was not to he kept
up in permanent service during Peace, but that there
was to be a power in the Crown to call them out
when it should judge proper : without meaning to
state that the Right Hon. Gentleman, or any Mi-
nister, would make an improper use of this power,
yet he thought it would be highly dangerous to the
Constitution that such a power, even though in a
dormant state, should exist in a time of peace con-
sidering this measure then as a permanent measure,
he must call it most unconstitutional, and directly
contrary to the Bill of Rights, and all those prin-
ciples which our ancestors.so highly valued. A
great deal had been said about the 'check which
the Mutiny Bill imposed upon this and every other
description of force : the fad was, that the pass-
; ing or not passing of the Annual Mutiny Bill,
LI would not destroy this force when it was once
I established: even the Militia System stood so far
independent of the Mutiny Aa as this, that it would
require the concurrence of the Three Branches
of the Legislature to destroy it, whereas any of them
could put an end to the Mutiny Ad, by refusing
their assent. He felt another very strong objeslion
to it, as it professed to diminish and reduce the Mi-
litia, which was the ancient and most constitutional
Defence of the Country. This was a pelicy, indeed,
very different from that which had been pursued by
the late Administration : in the year i Boz, when
they increased the Militia, the Preamble of the Bill
mentioned, that as the circumstances of the times
required a considerable increase of the Regular. Ar-
my, it was, therefore, expedient to increase the Mi-
litia also, which was intended by the Constitution as
a balance and counterpoise to the Standing Army ; it
was in the true spirit of the Coostitutio; th.ll tins
Preamble was written. The Militia were tniy
intended to be a Constitution.:) balance e
ing Army, but this balance at d c u ere
now entirely to be d ;ne away. A.
ing them with regular experienced Offi; ; was
hopeless. It was even found impracre
cure a sufficient nurniier of them f r Any of
Reserve. We were then ileel) to ;lig,. ad-
ditional force, neither offi..ereil 0y hers,,,,:, whir !ma
seen service, as the Officers of n r vet pos-
sessed of ary landed proper, v a qtel'efication,
such as the Officers of the Nlt cons.ider-
ed that it would he a ,eeen which would have
all the disadvantages of ,s,„ stems, without
the advantages of either. Toe Officers, without
having the experience of these of tee Line, would
be equally, or proliabll. us ,re absolutely dept.ne
dent on the Crown they ;Atli be possessed neither
of landed property, as the Officers of the Militia,
nor of their connexions with ti e CLuntry, nor any
of those ties which w.,uld he likely to make them
independent. It mu.' he supposed, they will be
absolutely under the influence of the Crown, and
in this respeel he thought the new system now pro.
prr.ed, was much worse than the old Constitutional
System i,f the Militia, which it went to supersede.
The Army of Reserve, which was raised on the spur
of the occasion, an=t did not pr-tess to be intended
as a permanent mciistiv., produced precisely the
same good effects which the Supporters of the Bill
expeded nom it. lie thought, however, that the
.t, under which the Army of Reserve was
raised, was a principle much mere efficacious than
the System under which the Men were now to be
raised, as the Mall upon whom the Ballot had fallen,
had a very strong stimulus to find out a Substitute
in his place, and consequently the Country had the
benefit of his exertions for that purpose.
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought, that the mea-
sure was likely to produce great good, and could
not possibly do any harm. He thought to Mini.
sters, so new in Office, some degree of tenderness
was due ; (a loud cry of "hear ! hear!" from the
Opposition Benches); when it was recollected who
the Right Hon. Gentleman was, who presided over
.His Majesty's Councils, the greatness of his. ta.
lents, and the extent of his political knowledge, he
thought some credit was due to the Plan he had
brought forward, and Gentlemen ought not to be
too hasty to condemn it, without, at least, the
most serious consideration : he thought, too, that
Gentlemen were somewhat inconsistent. When
the Right Hon. Gentleman first proposed this Plan,
he was not in Administration, and it was praised ;
but after he became a Minister, the same Plan,
even after every thing objectionable had been re-
moved from it, was violently condemned. He ap.
proved of it for the very reason, that the Hon. Gen-
tleman who spoke before him disapproved of it,
namely, that the new Force was not altogether a
Standing Army, nor yet a Militia, but held a mid-
dle course between both.

Lord TEMPLE recollected the plan being first
proposed- by the Right Hon. Gentleman, before he
was a' Minister, but he did not recollea that it had
been praised by any body ; he rose with reluc-
tance to oppose any measure brought for ;yard by that
Right Hon: Gentleman, whose talents he so highly
respcEed; but he could not help observing, that he
appeared to have brought forward this Plan without
any counsel or co-operation from those Right Flon.
Gentlemen who sat near him. The Noble Lord
who sat next to him (Lord CASTLERRAGII), and
the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman
(the ATTORNEY GENERAL) who sat near him, could
not have given him any advice on the subjeCt ; for it
must be in the recollection of this House, that both
of them had lately, when supporting a former Ad-
ministration, contended most strenuously that the
measure of our Defence was full, and that we had
nothing more to do : it was also in the recolleetion
of the House, that the Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. PITT)
himself was then most earnest to rescue the Country
from the Counsels of those men with whom, it seems,
he is now content to govern. In comparing a former
Administration with the present, it was probable
that the Right Han. and Learned Gentleman would
be inclined to prefer the present ; he had, perhaps,
adopted a more consoling species of morality, that
is, " Whatever is, is right." He could, however,

hardly- conceive how that Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman could now support a doarine so con.
trary to what he had some time ago strenuously
gipported. He dispproved highly of a large Stand-
ing Army, kept up on the principles which the
present system proposed. He thought the Mili.
tia, which was Officered by Gentlemen of landed
property, and independent of the Crown, was a
much more Constitutional Force for the Defence of
the Country. He preferred the system of ballot to
that of an additional Land.Tax,as he conceived this
would turn out to be ; and so far from supposing
that competition would be at all done away by this
measure, he thought there would he a double com.
petition created, not only of Parish against Parish,
but also of the Parishes against the Officers recruit.
ing for General Service. In every point of view
that he considered the Bill, it appeared to him so
objectionable that he felt it his duty to oppose it.
The Question was now called for, when

Mr. CANNING rose.—Perceiving, he said, that
there was a disposition in the House rather to evince
their opinions by their votes than by speaking, he
should have been unwilling to trouble them upon the
present occasion ; but as he had not yet spoken re-
speCting the present measure, he wished to deliver
his sentiments upon the subjed. If he had been
willing to use any argument of deprecation,. it would
have been that this measure had never been fairly
considered with resped to the objects which it had
in view, but had been referred to some imaginary
standard of excellence which no Gentleman had de-
scribed, but respecting which so many various opi.
nions had been given, that the opponents of the Bill
differed more amongst themselves than with
its supporters. It had been said that his Right
Honourable Friend had brought forward a mea-
sure unss orthy of his great' name and charaeter,
as if he could recruit at will, without any impediment
or obstacle whatever. Was this a fair way of arguing?
ought they not rather to look whether his Right
Hon. Friend had used the best possible means to
accomplish that which all agreed to be necessary ? A
Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed his opinion
that all our present military establishments ought
to he done away, with a view to have a clear stage,
and to creel something upon the ruins of what they
had overturned : others were of opinion that the
Regular Force ought not to be increased. He ad-
mitted that these two classes must necessarily divide
together against the Bill, bu: he should wonder much
if they did nut quarrel in the Lobby. His Right
Hon. Friend, when he came into office, found that
the ballot had done as much as it could ; he found
die Regular Army too small, and the Militia larger
in extent than was fairly compatible with the means
of the Country ; he found a Force in some measure
of the quality of Militia, and experience had shewn
that the principle of raising this Force might be
aptly applied to the Recruiting for the Regular
Army; this became the objea of his Right Hon.
Friend, and these his means. If his Right Hon.
Friend had only , made the greater force appli-
cable to general service, and the smaller to a
limited service, and if he had done no more,
he would still have done much, and would have
redeemed the pledge which he had given. The
next charge against his Right Hon. Friend was,
that there was nothing grand or striking about the
Plan. In answer to this he would only observe,
:hat if Gentlemen had conceived a great, and per-
haps imprafticable measure, the plan of which they -
did not state, they had no reason to complain if the
measure proposed did not come up to their ideas.
The present, contrasted with the former Plan, ap-
pearedto every advantage. He admitted, at the
same time, that those who voted for the former,
upon first hearing it, were not. hound to vote for
the subaequent alteration. The ballot was done
away, and now, for the first time, poor deceased
Ballot had found its panegyrists; with tespeti to a
competition against the Recruiting for the Regular
Army, what remedy was proposed on the other
side ? Only one, by the Right Hon. Gentlenarn
(Mr. W NpH Am), who said that they did best when
they did nothing ; that they need only strip away
the impediments from recruiting, and it would go
on. To this he answered, that the Plan of his Right
Hon. Friend came in the second resort to that of the
Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr.W soax mo); his Right
Hun. Friend had not been prepared to say that men
could be procured in the Parishes, he only wished to
try the experiment, and if they could not be found,
then the fines would create a Recruiting Fund at the
disposal of Government; which would come exattly
to the Plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
WtstostAsa), who wished for such a fund to be
placed at the disposal of Government, and for
the Recruiting to • be carried on by Officers ap-
pointed by the Crown, which would then be
the case, wick a bounty to be given both fur li-
mited and unlimited service. The next point, re-
lating to Parish Officers, had been So much argued
that
,he should say very little about it ; he should
only remark, that those who denied the eligibility
of making Parish Officers Recruiting Officers, ex-
tolled the exploded system of Crimps, and recur_
red to the equally exploded idea of ballot. The
objection that this measure was compulsory, had
been very ill supported. It had been argued,
that it would be a fraud upon the men, and
their parents and relations, to enlist them first for
limited service, with a view of afterwards inducing
them to enter for general service. He could nor,
however, see any distinction in this respect between
limited time and limited space. If a man was
enlisted for service in Great Britain and Ire-
land, Guernsey and Jersey, and was afterwards
induced to enter into the Regular Service for un-
limited space, where. was the distinction between
him and one enlisted for a limited time, but for un.
limited space ; and who, perhaps, in the West In-
dies, might be persuaded to extend that period of
service to an unlimited extent ? He did not say that
both modes might not be wrung, or that both might
,not be right, but one could not be wrong and the
other right ; and if one was a fraud, the other
was equally so. The next objection he should
notice, related to the burdens upon the Parishes,
;but it -would be but fair to state, as a set-off;
the burden from which the Parishes were
relieved. When he saw, in many instances, an
accumulated fine of Sol: incurred to Government
from some Parishes, he could not conceive that
to substitute 201. fa' chat could be considered as a

burden. Added to this, those who had witnessed
the distress and misery to which the ballot had, in
repeated instances, given rise, could not, he enn7
ceived be adverse to the abolition of chat system.
The most extraordinary argument, however, which
he had heard stared against die measure was, that by
atrieni
eldiyetvhwi;,notg,o
would
ed,}:aar i
gs hreoss froms
injusticethe b utrod etnh
eo f the ballot,
they Volunteers,
sr:
by doing away the ballot they would t'ke
from the V lunteers the principal motive for their
atitnioune
patriotic services, which necessarily supposed that
the principal inducemeent for the Volunteers CO COne
together
and
experiencedt he
y might
t theirwitness
i
That such an argument was ef no avail, was evideo
from the consideration that the •vonpt ions were nnt
attached to the Volunteers until long after the volune
tary -spirit of the Country had risen to its uttn°9!
height ;
.that those exemptions were never intended
to be given, nor were they ever expeded, or looked
last given by mistake, and
( n an
ot w, forrfupaemosor
such
were
number
tiarl
laoerfyv
Volunteers.kthey
dgu complete
o gthe vex-
nd it would be a most ex-
say, that tl,e taking away
would tend to lessen the
to the burdens Volunteers,
The next objet}i"n µ'as HC
should nTeageeggyf
acaasqsleitteeoscifoi question imagined, l
events,
indyatetc.: there
burden;
avei,beu.rpti upon the Country.
lrre.:..:tifof
sent circumstances of Europe, the question %vas
mem, and a greater Military Force under
Iwo; •
whether they would bear the burden, but
render it least onerous ? He would ask his It"l4ceuell'•
Friend (Mr. WIND/4AM) how he would provit'c
the increase of our Military E,tablishment,
,in
formity with that Right Hoo.Gentiemai,'s -pini°lls4
so often declared ? •He would, no doubt, vote f-"
creasing the Regular Standing Army ; it so, he
refer him -to the Learned Serjeant (I.3EsT) On die.
Opposision Side of the House, who had quo
bted
ul alcakt
i-olet t el
irbraaurtyhorof
it
wandoto. rporuogvhets fotrhwa .tit!d a cis
such
ar-
measureg was highly Unconstitutional.; but perfuips
they might settle the point in the lobby;
and agree
to-morrow. Did he mean that a large Standing. Armyde
should be kept up during PeeiCe'? If he- disoan
d
it there was an end of it, whilst in the former case It
would be highly
unconstitutional. It was evident
something must be done • to provil-! a Permanent
Force against a
period of Peace, and the presen.
measure, he contended, was.praCtically the best ca;
enlaced for that purpose.' . He should now advert t:
another subjed. highly .interesting at the 'prescrie
moment, but upon which he . should not detoln
le I-
House long. He saw no ohjedion to afstrugg',
thc
Parliament to discover whether the Servants ° 2,
Crown were entitled to its confidence ; be
tern,
very extraordinary that a number .Of G7.-P"..was
should unite against a G.)verninent which idly
scarcely yet in existence. He fairly and .cartea..
avowed that be gave the Right Honourabi-stt.
tleman ( Mr. ADDINGTON.) credit for Illc
ma tic opposition which he had commenced had
His Majesty's Government the motnent
left His Majesty's Councils ;he was 'glad by
an inefficient Administration atoned ft)f, ar f
a vigorous Opposition—(A loud laugh, ``ne
Hear!") Here he wished, to take notice of an 0.,
pression made use of by a Wile Lord ( fEM
as if his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. PITT) 1,a3. bee_nd
mere accession to the former Ministry, with
change having taken place. He should contente load
I
self with vindicating his own consisiency:
objeded to the Administration of Foreign At
the
and that had been changed ; he had o:ajected t° ea
Naval Administration, and that had been citied
ng 0
(a loud csy of " Hear ! Hear!") he had ohjeono
the Civil Department of the MiliaarvAdminis.traf tho
and that had been changed; he had also objreted whiai
general superintendance of the whole, and that,. hc.
Chao,
been changed. In objeling to the inefficiencYo
„ 1110
late Ministers, he had been joined by almost 3" Lod
who were now in Opposition. The N''biicin • the
had said, that the Public were disappointeonongsc
formation of the present Administration ; n voi9
that Public, he candidly confessed that •00 ri'Cted
more disappointed than himself. He onlY e,,)td,
• equal candour on the other side ; and te
that when they talked of exclusion, and °Pr"
rut to
tion, they would objed to the principle ar.'ct"ew isef
nein
the application. He wished it had been Jed
but as it was, he would do his duty. He
re
Ytinci-
by again expressing an earnest wish that its
not
plc of exclusion might be objected to, an; ...
application. •
Mr. SomxiS Cool :3 explained. he little
Mr. BR AGGE B ATIIURST said; frorn th
thoght that any thing could have fal_letle induced
Right Hon. Gentleman which could .hy. CO One
him ‘to rise, but found himself conWebe —NGToN)
r AnDri
dicate his Right Hon. Friend (' Hunottrit°
against the remarks of the Riga the Dlen(4
oGrentthleemcahna.
ra6l-tleer doifd
hinsotgigtlillitukHotnll.ltFrieiria
ewdo: 01:y4
be- affected b any thing that could
.be urg
Honour"
ottl
ask why the charader of his Right that 0
the Right Hun. Gentleman, otherwise he w'
Friend's condud should be considered to ber.etloti
a decided system of opposition. If the Pre forward
been an entirely new measure, • brought beeo
for the first time, such a charge must h,av`view
considered in a totally different Voint ocirwarti
but when this measure had been brought. ttwas•cu
professedly with a comparative view to what 00'
e have been effeeted by the former measur
iniov
duced by his Right Hon. Friend, what an .QP/400,
must the House have entertained of his Rig
Friend, if he had at once turned his back _._tiP'7.4 by
own measure, and upon the majority of the Now ,sh,
tedthe
serving, that the present measure adop
_ll too
whom it had-been supported. •He concluded bivverf
principle, the abolition of the ballot, wot‘:
rk" ten'i•the
c
been brought forward by
Lord HENRY PETTY, in noticing .some that
_ANNING, ott9Cfre the
arguments urged by Mr. C • that ,
his Right,Hon.
that Right Hon. Gentleman had stated,
ginary excellence to which they wished coder._ctsherc
thou ,
roc,
the contrary,
opponents of the Bill had set up a stanclaruj-- the
present Bill. He, on
h tils
means by w
ly, the end proposed, and the me
mom'
conceived was to be attained. The present. OP;
rtly Par°
was another standard, of a much better naturhe,c°.
conceived to be of a mixed nature, pa