The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EV EATING, AMITL 2S, 18;1S

.
tnent, to do it by ati act of direct legislation, rather than
to make use for that:
osofphrase in an act which
m,
was never PubrePdi.ie a
ectedagainet them. (Hear.)
The same intended i
opinion, a I.most in
Mthe same
r. Baron Martin was still
s4ed by
same occasiupon the
snore strongly
?a. A e"ren argumentem ad hominem had been
,pressed against him on a former occasion by Lord Derby
.—that, upon repealing the Test and Corporation Acts,
Vhe had retained the %gores upon the true faith of a
r.bristian." It was of the utmost consequence at that
.; -46 0 secure the passing of the bill, and to obviate the
sition of a noble and learned lord, of whom it had
that his learning was only exceeded by his
toord Tenterden—he (Lord Lyndhurst) had
bigotry— to. retain the words. But a few years after,
consentedwben be fe„,:i that he could succeed in repealing that
6-43 t in a bill for the purpose, which was
clause, he brou
through both houses. (Hear.)
carried triumphs 'ItlY
It was said that t.i,s was not a question of toleration
or religious liberty, Cut of power and privilege, and
that the Legislature 04,13 t do as it liked about granting
that privilege. But this ;Fat: taking a very narrow view
sell ious
of religious toleration. What he meant by gwer
liberty was that every man, with respect to office, po
and emolument, should, without regard to his feligious
.opinions, be put upon a footing of perfect equality,
less his opinions were such as to disqualify him from
properly performing his duty. (Hear.) Was thhieerhe
raelnv
athe footing, in this enlightened age' on
which
fine 1
gious liberty could be founded We did: not nowutif we
orwe
imprison men for their religious opinions ;
denied theta the fair emoluments of office, the fair
'objects of ambition, was not that a gredaetenrieianjtuhrey than
t
In so doing we
even iroprisonuient
principles of freedom gear.)
established a rule that would
Where 'fere we to stop !
justify persecution. (lien, and this
It was asked if their op inione were harmless;
was admitted to be the case, thhen why should
ou we
e argument abt unchri:-
fere with those opinionslT
tianisihig the legislature had been used—an old and fa-
vourite argument with the opponents of this measure.
When that argument was first urged in that house, it
et with an entire and complete refutation by a most
rarev. prelate, then a member of the house, Archbishop
whitely, 'lle said, "If you ask if this is a Christian
country, the answer will be in the affirmative ; but yet
.it does not consist exclusively of Christians ; it com.
'rises a certain number of Jews, but you still call it a
Christian country. But the constitution of Parliament
iQ to represent the country, and if it represent the coun-
try fairly, Jews is well as Christians, how can you con-
tend :or a moment that because there are some Jews in
Parlianient the legislature is not as much a Christian le-
gislature as the country is a Christian country?" (Hear.)
Had any amiwer ever been given to that argument !
Could any answer be given to it To go further, were
not benches of justices Christian ; were not corporations
Christian t Who denied that ? WeYe there not Jews in
corporations, And did they un-Christian:qe them ! It was
not possible to support such an extravagant argument as
bad been founded on the alleged un-Chrisaanising of
the legislature. Take the case of the colonies. Were
not the inhabitants of Canada and our other colon:as
British subjects I Had they not all the same rights
as we had, and were they not all entitled to the
same protection Were they not entitled to be pro-
tected as Christians I And yet Acts of Parliament bad
passed their lordships' house, and constitutions had been
framed for Canada, the Australian colonies, and New
Zealand, without any provision against the admission of
Jews to the legislative bodies of those colonies. (Heir,
hear.) Did anybody get up and say that those legisla-
tures would not be Christian assemblies ! No one had
ventured to make such an assertion. But, according to
the argument of the Lord Chancellor, those bodies were
unchristianised, for Jews were admitted into them
equally with Christians. It might be asked, had that
ever been acted on ! He knew that a most able mem-
ber of the Jewish religion was for several years a mem-
ber of the House of Representatives of Lower Canada.
That man evinced great talent and great powers ; he
was extremely popular ; and discharged his duty in a
manner perfectly satisfactory. He was told that in one
of the Australian colonies a Jew was a member of the
legislature. What became then of the principle ! (Hear,
hear.) It seemed we did not care about the principle
in the colonies ; they were not considered worthy of
atten ion. (Hear, hear.) A distinction had been drawn
between the duties of a legislature and of a bench of jus-
tices. What were the qualities they required in an ad-
ministrator of justice ! That be should be a man of
probity, a man of information, a man of impartiality, a
man of decision. What qualities did they require in a
member of the legislature I Precisely the same. (Hear,
hear.) Those qualities that rendered a man fit to dis-
charge well the duties of an administrator of justice
were the very qualities which it was desirable he should
possess as a member of the legislature. (Hear, hear.)
Look at Prussia. In that country they said to the
Jews—'' You may be members of the legislature ; there
is no harm in that ; but you must not be administrators
of the law." (Hear.) We said precisely the reverse.
Such was the inconsistency of intolerance. (Hear.) In
almost every continental nation members of the Jewish
religion were admitted to their respective legislatures
almost without ex ,eption. This was the case even in Catho-
lic countries, in France and Belgium. The admission of
Jews to those legislatures bad not been productive of in-
convenience or the slightest disadvantage ; and we were
called upon by every principle to extend the same privi-
lege to them here. The first lesson of Christianity
was to do to others as we wished them to do to us ; this
principle was at the basis of all Christian teaching. What
bad we done recently in Turkey I He could conceive Lord
Stratford de Redcliffa appealing to the Sultan and saying
—" How cruelly you act towards Christians ; you don't
admit them to office. They are equally entitled with your
other subjects to hold office of every description." And
if that noble lord had been able to say that we, who
were an enlightened nation, pursued that course in Eog-
land, most likely the Sultan, after due consideration,
would have made the concession, and have put the Chris-
tians in Turkey on the same footing in respect of offices
as his other sulljscts. (Hear.) But it was not fair to call
upon other countries to put in practice those principles
which we ourselves relived to act upon ; it was neither
just nor honourable. (Hear) We imposed upon the Jews
the liability of filling such offices as those of sheriff and
alderman, in which they must serve under a penalty. It
was said that their Sabbath being on Saturday, and
their various holidays incapacitated them from perform-
ing their duties as Christians ; but there was nothing in
this argument. Then it was asked what part would they
take on questions affecting religion 1 That suggestion
came rather too late. The objection was made some SO
years ago, with great force and effect, on the Catholic
question. It was said that the Catholics considered us as
neretics, and would art upon that belief in religious
questions. But that was over-ruled • and there was no
pretence for saying that Catholics bad interfered with
the Church of England. The Jews were even allowed to
present to benefices ; and in no case had any complaint
been made of the way in which they had exercised their
rights. It had actually been stated in the other house
that the Jews were the subjects of the devil. (Laughter.)
The attempt to get up a religious cry against the Jews
was worthy of the dark ages ; and he regretted that it
had proceeded from a gentleman of intelligence and reli-
gious feeling. It had also been said that Jews were mem-
bers of the inquisition, and that they were the original
Jesuits. What was the authority for this ? Nothing more
than a popular novel, by a member of the present Go-
vernment—Coningsby. (Laughter.) Then it was said
they were a separate nation, a race of sojourners, look-
ing forward to removal at no distant period. Were they
not as enterprising, loyal, and industrious, as other
classes I On all occasions when they were freed from op-
pression they evinced great talent. A remarkable in-
stance of this was found in the Jews of Germany ; the
moment their liberties were restored many eminent men
arose amongst them, distinguished in literature and sci-
ence. (The noble and learned lord enumerated several,
but
the names did not reach the gallery.) He trusted
that this was the ilast time the bill would be discussed,
and the last time it would be necessary for him to urge
the claims of the Jews upon their lordships.
A (Hear.)
T
After a few words from the Earl of DESTbe Duke of MARLBOROUGH said the noble' and
learned lord had admitted that if the question wastobe
argued on religious grounds, the objections to the admis-
sion of the Jews were unanswerable. He admitted they
were good citizens and among the most peaceable of her
Majesty's subjects. The highest title of the Queen wa
that of defender of the faith. The highest State cere-
mony, the coronation of the sovereign, was a religious
act; and in that ceremony her Majesty declared that she
would defend the Ctristian religion to the utmost of her
power. Their lordships had been reminded, too, that their
proceedings were always inaugurated by solemnly in-
vokirg a blessing upon their deliberations in the name
of the Divine Founder of our Faith. If the measure be-
fore the house passed into law, a most formidable step
would have been taken towards undermining the Chris-
tian character of the constitution. (Hear.) There was
only too much reason to think that if any number of Jews
ever became members of either house,
minar it would be foun
ord
necessary either to omit the preliy prayers,
to omit from those prayers the name of Christ. At all
events, he had heard of a case in which a Jew had in-
sisted upon the omission of the phrase " Christian"sym
pathy from the prospectus of a public subscription, and
hail succeeded in having the document altered to suit his
views. (Hear.) But he (the noble duke) ha I another ob-
jection to the bill. He wished to know why Jews should
be treeted more favourably than Roman Catholics ?
. (Hear.) By the present Lew a Roman Catholic could not
, nominate to any ecclesiastical appointment. Ho could
not hold any office in the universities. Ile could not pre-
sent to any benefice. He could not advise the Crown
upon any ecclesiastical appointment ; and he could not
hold certain offices under the Crown. But the only one I
of these restrictions proposed to be enforced against the I
Jew was that he should not hold certain offices ; but e
might be the Prime Minister or Privy Councill r, in the
former of which capacities he would have to advise her
Majtesttyavali.thoedthcehauppohintment of the chief pastors of
the
noble and learned Irci ((Tear.) The other evening the
with inimitaue
P., (Lard Lyndhurst) had ridiculed
Chief
ter a bill which had been brought in
by the Lord
would not be a Justice,lawful 'netting because the convocation
purpose within the meaning
fog atiedbs,eilimlflhibeduwtefiehraaa
what
wo7p;
upf
lua
the noble and learned lord haotvoethasaa
uenactment by which a
pent of the present measure,
might become a
Jew, as a member of the Privy
'ilLhe noble dune
judge of Christian doctrine? (Cheerns"
c included by adjuring their lordehipe:t
twy''l '
respect to the principle of civil and religious liberty, cress
noty
to sanction the abuse of the phrase, by which it
often made to mean the separation of Uhurch and State.'o
(Loud cheers.)
Lord STRATFORD DE RE DCLIFFE wished, alter
the reference which had been made to the country in
which he had passed so large a portion of his life, to
house.
offer
a few observations upon the question before the
The noble and learned lord (Lord Lyndhurst) with that
sagacity and Live of justice which distinguished him in
so remarkable a manner, had brought to his recollec-
lion that which was perfectly correct, namely that in
. Turkey, where the great national reform that was

now going on had occupied so much attention in this
country, and indeed throughout the whole of Europe for
so many years—there was nothing more striking than to
find that the just effects of representations which he bad
had the honour to make on behalf of this country, had
often been checked by our policy upon the question now
before the house—a question with regard to which, not-
withstanding the progress we had made of late years, we
were still in the rear of our neighbours. (Cheers.) There
was no doubt that the course pursued by this country
with regard to the admission of Jews into the Legisla•
tore had been the subject of remark in Turkey on occa-
sions when he had had to press the immense importance
of setting aside those religious differences whieh had so
much retarded the progress of improvement in that coun-
try; and nothing would have afforded him greater plea-
sure than to have been able to show in what respects
ieh
we
in this country bad set aside ancient prejudices, wh
we had unfortunately so long cherished. (Cheers.) With
respect to that question, so far as it related to this coun
try, it would be wholly unnecessary for him again to go
over the ground which had been gone over on both sides
with such eminent ability by the two noble and learned
lords. He considered himself very fortunate at having
been present at a debate which would be long remem.
bered in the annals of this country, The contest between
I the two noble lords reminded him of one be bad read of
ia a
rt or
days between two illustrious professors of
an art which this country had been somewhat distin-
guished— a dentest between one who was retiring, but
who had been a chig ornament of the pugilistic art—and
one who was coming into it with all the vivacity of
youth. (Laughter.) He should, however, be sorry in.
deed to say of the noble and learned lord who had so
rivetted the attention of their lordships, and who had
given a knock-down blow, as he was willing to believe,
to prejudices which had so long existed,
•'—linmani pondere ceestus Projecit."
(Cheers.) He hoped the noble lord would long be able
ii display those extraordinary talents which it had given
him sing lar pleasure after so long an absence to witness.
(Cheers.) The grounds upon which he should give the
vote he had resolved upon were very simple. He con-
sidered that every Englishman was entitled to all the
rights which our institutions afforded, unless there was
something in his religion, on account of which the in-
terests of the state made it necessary to exercise the
power it undoubtedly possessed of making him an excep-
tion, (Hear, hear.) He was, however, at a loss to
understand what there was in the position of the Jew
to make him such an exception. (Cheers.) Toe dis-
tinction which the noble and learned lord had drawn
between the Jewish body and certain distinguished
members of that body, did not seem to him (Lord
Stratford) to rest upon any jest ground. The question
was not one of the rights derived from accomplishments
or from qualities which might belong to a superior edu-
cation, but it was a question of rights which belonged
to the poorest individual. He considered that there was
nothing in the position of the Jew which could justly
disqualify him from taking a part in the public ser-
vice or in the legislation of the country ; and he
thought that the principle for which he was
of the con-
tending applied as much to one p ortion
munity as to another. (Hear.) He (the noble lord) could
not sit down without again referring for a moment to the
subject with which he conarnenced, and that was a satis-
faction which he could hardly find terms tohas express
been
,
that in a country where despotisen
so long established, and where so much de-
pended upon the will of the ruler, the Sultan,
with whom he had been so long i communication
sh,
own
had
during the 1$ or li years on f
his reign,
a liberality of opinion, and a generosity of disposition,
which entitled him to the confidence of this country.
But he would remind their lordships that so long as the
results of negotiation remained on paper only, important
as they might be to the interests not only of Turkey, but
of humanity itself, they would want their proper con-
summation. A great deal must depend upon the advice
of the Ministers who were on the spot ; but a great deal
mast likewise depend upon the attention which Europe
at large continued to apply to the subject, and more
especially upon the attention which might be given to it
by those who presided over the councils of her Majesty.
(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of RUTL AND bad always opposed the ad-
mission of the Jews into Parliament; and he could not,
as some persons seemed to do, underrate the importance
of allowing even a few of that body to obtain seats in
either house.
Lord STANLEY of ALDIRLY said he was unwill-
ing the debate should close without a few words from
that side of the house. What now remained to com-
plete the equal rights and equal liberties of all the
citizens of this great country was the admission of the
Jew to representative, as well as to judicial and other
offices. There certainly was danger of a collision with
the other house of Parliament, and even those great
statesmen the Duke of Wellington and Sir R. Peel did
not object to be influenced by such considerations in
conceding Catholic emancipation. The county of Clare i
then returned Mr. Daniel O'Connell, as the citizens of
London now returned Baron Rothschild.' There was
something of danger in continuing their present curse.
He called upon their lordships to concede the question
while they could do it with grace, and not postpone' it
any longer.
Lord DUNGANNON said if their lordships were to
be induced by any fear of the consequences of a collision
with the other house to pass this bill, then the House of
Lords would soon become to be considered as a mere
register-office for the decisions of the House of Com-
mons,
Earl GRANVILLE said it was desirable not to have
a collision between the two Houses of Parliament on a
question of this kind. Opposition very frequently was
productive of benefit. It oLen caused delay in the early
agitation of a question, and by the delay it occasioned
gave their lordships and the country an opportunity of
reconsidering and reflecting on the question with greater
' calmness than they could do under periods of excitement.
He thought it, however, advantageous after lengthened
periods of discussion on que-tions in the other house, con-
firmed by growing maj lities in more than one Hou-e of
Commons, that their lordship should give way to expe-
diency, and sacrifice their convictions, as was done by
the late Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel, in re
ferenca to Catholic emancipation. He bad heard no prac-
tical objection to the admission of Jews to Parliament,
and he saw no reason why the.r admission to Parlia-
ment should un Christianise the legislature any more than
the admission to civil offices and the rights of citizenship
had un-Christianised the country. He called upon the
noble earl (Earl Derby) to point out clearly the course
which her Majesty's Goya, nment intended to pursue in
reference to this question. (Cries of " Divide, divide.")
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY complsiued that
their lordships had not been favoured with the opinions
of the members of the episcopal bench on the question.
It was a disgrace to the country to exclude the Jew by
an act while they were doubtful about its meaning.
The Bishop of CASEEL had as much affection for the
Je w as any man, but he could never consent to bring into
Parliament a man whose forefathers crucified our Re-
deemer, and who themselves vilified Him every day of
their lives. He doubted if a good Jew would come into
this house—(laughter)---and those who were desirous of
enteringpmoepaunl
meaning
language,a
rParliamentae n ofd owere
be hri eef considered
ui
character.
designated
bwereby
the those whom,u in
"j
(Loudo laughter.)
"
r.) w,
Their lordships then divided. The numbers 'were----
Contents BO
Non-Contents ll9
Majority against the clause . —39
The clause was then struck on+.
Clause 8 was also expunged.
The other clauses were agreed to.
The bill was then reported on amendments, and their
lrd
lordships aejourned at 20 minutes to 10 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.--(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The London Dock Company Bill was read a third
time and passed.
bills were further considered and ordered
to Tbeherefaid"awting
third time : —Maidstone Gas, Trent Navi-
gation, and Vauxhall Bridge Road.
SOUTH KENSINGTON MfyrSEnyttiiiirn,,B4f
the
Lord H. LE x
number of visitors to the South Kensington Museum
co
from its opening to the present time, distinguishing
those days which are free, and those which are students'
days ; also the numbers attending the Museum in the
morning and the evening; and, of the numbers who
visited the Museum at Marlborough-House during the
years 1854, 1855, and 1856.—Agreed to.
EAST INDIA. (PATRONAGE, &c.)
Mr. J. B, SMITH moved for returns, separate and
in detail, of the patronage vested in the Crown, the
Board of Control, and the Directors of the East India
Company, both as regards the Home Government
and the Government of India in India. And, of
the patronage vested in the Governor-General of
India, of the Governors of Madras and Bombay and
no-th-west provinces, of the Commasder-in-Chiet, and
the commanders of the farces of Madras -and Bombay,
pith the salaries and allowances attached to eve!),
situation, office, and employment, covenanted, diatin-
guiihing the number of Europeans and natives employed
, in the uncovenanted service ; together with the retiring
allowances and pensions in every department of the
State cunnected with the Government of India, in rupees
reckoned at two shillings each, under the following clas-
sifications, via.:—ecclesiastical establishment, civil ser-
vices, military servicas, marine department, educa-
tional establishments, and law appointments connected
with the Queen's courts.
TETE MILITIA.

Lord BURGHLEY asked the Secretary fir War,
bother the Government would make some allowance
to the captains of the 16 disembodied regiment;
Militia, to compensate them for the losses they must‘
sustain by their not being able to recover the debts from
their companies, in consequence of their regiments being
suddenly dis.embo lied ?
General PEEL said be intended to f )flow the prece-
dent of former years in this instance. It was not the
custom t.) make such compensation. (Hear, hear.)
VALUATIONS (IRELAND).
Mr. GROGAN gave notice that on this day fortnight
he shouli move for an address relative to the people cf
Irel&nd beirg relieved from one-half of the expenses of
the annual valuation of that country. (Hear.)
CORRUPTION PRACTICES PREVENTION
_ _

_
ACT.
Mr. CROSS asked the Secretary for the Horne De-
partment whether it was the intention of her Majesty's
Ministers to take any steps towards extending the pro-
visions of the Corrupt Practices Prevention dto mu-
nicipal flectionel

Mr. WALPOLE said the Corrupt Practices Preven-
tion Act was under his consideration for amendment.
Els should shortly introduce it, and then move that it be
referred to a select committee, and afterwards discuss it
in a committee of the whole house. He thought they
had better perfect the act with reference to parliamentary
elections before they extended its provisions to municipal

elections. He saw no reason why it should not then be
extended to municipal elections.
THE ENFIELD RIFLE.
General CODRINGTON asked the Secretary for War,
whether it was true that some of her Majesty's Regi-
ments of Infantry in the East Indies were still armed
with the old smooth-bore musket ; and, if so, what had
caused the delay in changing them for the Enfield Rifle,
which had long been issued to the rest of the army, both
I at home and abroad I

General PEEL said all the regiments sent from this
country to India in 1857 were supplied with the Enfield
rifle, but those previously sent out were furnished with
the smooth-bore musket. Last year, however, the East
India Company sent out 35,000 Enfield rifles to India ;

and up to the I.9th of this month 82,000 had been sent
there. Their distribution rested with the Indian
Government, Lord Panmure's attention was on a
former occasion directed to the subject ; and from
what was then done he (General Peel) bad reason to
hope that now every one of the army in India had been
supplied with the Enfield rifles. (Hear, hear.)
General CODRINGTON asked if he was to under-
stand from the gallant general's answer that the troops
in India still had the smooth-bore muskets _ _ _

General PEEL said, previous to 1857 they had them,
but he believed sufficient rifles bad been seat out to sup-
ply every man with one. (Hear, hear.)
DELAYED RETURNS.

Sir C. NA.PIER, asked when the returns of the money
saved in wages by paying off eight line-of-battle ships in
the spring of 1857 ; of the expense of refitting the ships
Duke of Wellington, Exmouth, &c.; and of the number of
Continuance Service men in the fleet on the let day of
January, 1857, would be laid on the table
Mr. CORRY said the returns asked for involved
muoh labour. No unnecessary delay had taken place,
and he expected they would be ready in a few days.
THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.

Viscount INGESTRE asked the Chief Commissioner
of Works whether his attention had been called to a
memorandum left in his office by the late Chief Commis-
sioner of Works with reference to the unsatisfactory
estimate sent in by Sir Charles Barry for the comple-
tion of the works at the Palace of Westminster, and
whether any and what determination bad been come to
on the subject
Lord J. MANNERS said his attention was naturally
called to the memorandum in question on his taking
office, and he had lost no time in communicating with
Mr, E. Barry, who was acting for his father, who was
suffering from illness. Details and estimates had been,
sent in for the entire completion of the palace.
They had been submitted to the Trea-ury, and in a few
days he expected they would be in the hands of hon.'
members. (Hear, hear.)
DENMARK.
Mr. WISE asked the Under Secretary for Foreign
Affairs whether he would lay upon toe table a copy of
the report made in May, 1857, by Consul General
Ward, of L4psic, to the Briti-h Government, on the
differences which had arisen between the Duchies and
the Kingdom of Denmark : as well as a copy of any
observations or reply communicated by the Danish
Ministry to her Majesty's Government in reference to
the said report
Mr. S. FITZGERALD, after referring to the great
importance cf these differences, said that as her Majesty's
Government might be called on to take a peculiar line of
conduct in reference to them, it was objectionable to
publish at the present time to the whole world a report
of a confidential nature. The reply to the report, or
despatch alluded to by the Danish Government, was
communicated confidentially, and nothing more, to Coh;
sul-General Ward.
STADE DUES.
Mr. HUTT inquired when the notice for the commit-
tee on the Stade Dues would be placed on the paper?
Mr. HENLEY having explained the cause of the de-
lay, said he hoped to be able to do so tonight.
Mr. HUTT then gave notice that he should to-morrow
move the appointment of a select committee on the Stade
Dues.

INCREASED ASSIZES.
Mr. M'MA RON moved for a select committee to in-
quire into the expediency of further improving the
administration of justice, by increasing the number of
assizes for oivil business in the several counties of Eag
land and Walv. The hon. and learned member altered

his mot ion in accordance with Air. Collins' amendment, to
include the increasing of assize towns ; and forcriminal as
well as civil business. He suggested there should be
three assizes a-year instead of two, as at present, and
that the large csunties should be divided. No addi-
tional judges woul I be required, and the division
of counties would be a great saving of expense and

trouble both to suitors and jurors.
Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion.
Mr. COLLINS supported the motion.
Mr. WA LPOLE said that all the information which
could be required was already hefora the house. A still
more extensive inquiry hail been entered into by a royal
commission consisting of many of the most eminent
judges and others, who were better able to form an opi-
nion than a committee of the house could be. All addi-
tion to the present number of assizs would necessitate a
large increase in the judicial staff, and was especially
unnecessary at a time when the means cf communica-
tion were so much improved, and alter the establishment
of the county courts. It should be left to the discretion
of the Executive to examine the recommendations of the
commissioners, and to provide a remedy for existing
defects.
Mr. WAD/FIELD urged that justice ought to be '
brought home to every roan's door, and that assizes
should be held in every great town.
Lord GODERIC a expressed a similar opinion.
Sir G. GREY could not see any advantage in going
again over the same ground which the commissioners
had alrealy travelled. The question should be left to the
respon-ible advisers of the Crown, who would no doubt
attend to the claims which might be urged by any par-
ticular town.
Col. SMYTHE defended th 3 actual distribution of
the assizi.p.
Mr. BRIGHT adduced the difficulty which poor men
charge 3 with crime had in bringing their witnes-es from
a distance as a reason for extending the number of assize
town. Witnesses against him were brought up at the
public expense. They had already established a greater
number of assiz. towns in Liverpool, and he did not see
why the same principle should not be extended to other
countie.. Still, be did not think further inquiry neces-
sary—they had already sufficient information.
After some observations from Mr. CHAIITAIWORTH,
who asserted that Wakefield should be made an assize

town,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL repeated that the
house already possessed all the information requisite.
The just &aims
ER supported of the great towns
pr would be attended to.
Mr. BOWYorted tbe pposition for a third
assize.
After some further discussion, and a brief repiy from
Mr. M‘MAHotr,
The motion was negatived.
MASTERS AND WORKMEN.
Mr. MACKINNON rose to call the attention of the
house to the report of the select committee of 1856 ap-
pointed to inquire into the eaopediency eetablishing
equitable tribunals for the amicable adjustmen to move
of dif-
ferences between masters and operatives, and
for leave to bring in a bill to enable masters and work-
men to form councils of conciliation and arbitration.
Mr. INGHAM seconded the motion.
Mr. WA.LPOLE reserved his opinion as to the details
of the bill, but would not oppose its introduction.
Leave was then given to introduce the bill.
THE COUNTY FRANCHISE.
Mr. LOCKE KING moved for leave to introduce a
bill to extend the franchise in counties in England and
Wales, and to improve the representation of the people.
When he last brought the question before the house, it
had been rejected by the small majority of 13 votes ;
and, were it not for the chivalrous assistance rendered
on that occasion to the noble viscount the member for
Tiverton, then at the head of the Government, by the
honourable gentleman opposite, the bill would have
been carried by a considerable majority, for the noble
lord was only able to muster, including, himself, 31 sup-
porters of the Government. Since that time, the noble
lord haxieg sustained a defeat, made his appeal to
the country on a question affecting the honour of the
British fl-ig. He selected as his rallying cry not the re-
form of the franchise, but a topic calculated to arouse the
feeling of the British lion—namely, an alleged insult to
the British flag. Bit the country soon turned its atten-
tion from the China question and Mr. Commissioner Yeh
to the subject of Parliamentary reform, and the measure
that he had submitted to Parliament found general sup-
port with the people. He did not bring the qeestien
forward last y.ar because the noble lord had promised to
introduce an extensive measure of Parliamentary reform,
which would involve an enlargement of the franchise.
He hail had some experience of ministerial promises and
he bad come to the con elusion that little faith was to be
placed in them, however well meant. He did not bring
this question forward in any spirit of factious hostility
to the Government. The objections to the measure had
resolved themselves into a very small compass. One ob-
jection was, that a measure of reform was forthcoming,
but he lel.: sure from past experience, that Ministers cothould
not undertake one for a forthcomink see-ion. Another
objection raise I was, that this was not the time for a
change, but that was too common to need to be met.
Then there was the objection of en urged against such
proposals, that this WAS a piecemeal measure of reform ;
but in the present feeling and temps of the house the
only way in whic this question could be dealt with was
by introducing a small, honest, just measure of this
kind, which he priferr d to large ones, possibly having a
great deal of dishonesty in them. He would not go into
details on the bill, with which the house was familiar, as
he bad enti red fully into the statistics in times past. No
one had hitherto dared to assail ihe class which he now
warseu.aehsubg:uenstdiaorny,paying
proposed should be enfranchised. It was most anomalous
that an individual who lived in a town and occupied a
1,0/. house should havethe franchise, while another inha-
bitingbo a house nearly adj but beyond the
larger taxes, shoull remain without a vote. here
gen-
tleman the member for Carlisle (S r J. Graham)
that some means ought emanating perhaps
s the higher
right .ho rent,
and..?_.be taken to prevent faggot
aksindgeviaytedecf7"rY
voting, and he (Virg L.
to adopt a Si. ratine Previous
thought it might be well
r,ev.ous to the last election, the
house woul I remember,'
meet had intended to allowwasoreported
atso'aaltlteegmedpt it. The motion,be
bill
thatetitiownooufliany
any
nottnrotioldiobaunet
the
Gr
go
r.d‘
ovuueernendd-
amendments.
pThith t tiinetre,ntat intention
understanding
ma
'king
the bill would not permit the
such
wasting amendments,the time f
tine
ed it
housew
however, was made t bring in the bill; the excuse
urged for the Government te:t supporting the measure
was a pure fie; ion, for the bill itself bad not been at that
time drafted, Ile left it to her Majesty's late advisers, if
they wished to explain the matter. He hoped her Ml-
jesty's present Ministers would not fall into the same

fault. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving for
leave to bring in his bill.
Mr. BY NG seconded the motion, because he was anxi-
ous that a sound and comprehensive measure of reform
should be passed; because it would enfranchise many
towns and unrepresented districts ; and because he be-
lieved, by so doing, they would enlarge the area of re-
presentation by the enfranchisement of a large class of
the community, honest and intelligent, who were en-
titled to the privilege of vot ng. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I have
no objection to urge against the purpose of the bill which
the hon. gentleman proposes to introduce. I have no ob-
jectien to extend the franchise which is enjoyed at pre-
sent by counties, and I think an extension of the fran-
chise may improve its exercise. I have no prejudice what-
ever to the general purpose of the motion of the hon. gen-
tleman to extend the franchise in c unties in England
and Wales, and to improve the representation of the
people in respect of such franchise; but there are several
considerations which induce me to think that the intro-
ductien of such a measure may rather prove a source of
embarrassment to those who seriously intend and wish to
improve the franchise. We have heard from the hon.
gentleman his description of his own bill which he seeks
to bring in. He saysit is a measure "small, honest, and
just," the tendency of which be to remove great ano-
malies. How stands the question of the general repre-
sentation at the present moment in England I speak
from memory, but in my general results I am not wrong.
Well, we have a certain number of members returned to
Parliament from those counties with whose franchise the
hon. gentleman proposes to deal. We have 150 or 160
county members for England and Wales, and they are
returned to Parliament by something more than half a
million of electors. We have, on the other hand, 330 bo-
rough memb-rs, who are returned to Parliament by little
snore than 400,000 electors. Those who are Parliamen-
tary reformers and approach this great question in an
impartial spirit will be struck with the impression that
the balance between the city and county representation
is cot just, and it seems strange that half a million of
electors should only return 150 or 160 members, while
400,000 electors should return 330 members. (Hear.)
One might almost be disposed to say that this is one
ameng the anemones to which the hon. gentleman has
referred. But what is the remedy which the hon. gentle-
man offers to us, because he despairs that a great and
comprehensive measure on the subject may be submit-
ted, and because he says he can only take a measure
which is honest and just ? It appears to me that the
course pursued by the hon. gentleman will not remove
the anomalies in the representative system which he
complains of, and, to use the language of the hon. gen-
tleman himself, improve the franchise of this country.
The house should consider well this question. If we are
to agree to the motion on the grounds upon which the
hon. member has placed it we shall be sanctioning the
supposition that the hope of a general improvement of the
franchise is impossible, aad that the measure which we
are asked to sanction is just, small, and honest. While
we have a small number of members returned by large
constituencies, and a large number of members returned
by small constituencies, I find in the returns moved for
by the hon. member himself the inevitable inference that
if you make up your minds to deal with what the hen.
gentleman calls the extension of the franchise in this
country, you cannot deal wi h it partially, and whatever
may be the objections urged against comprehensive mea-
sures, I am fully persuaded that when dealing with the
representation of a great people it is quite impossible by
small, honest, and just measures to effect anything but
that which is large in justice and vast in policy. Is the
house prepared for the crate of things which the hon.
gentleman contemplates ? At this moment, in the coun-
ties to which the hon. gentleman's motion alone refers,
every member of Parliament represents 3,300 electors ;
at this moment in the boroughs every member repre-
sents 1,280 electors. Unquestionably there are boroughs
where the preponderating influence is purely agricultural
and also counties where the great weight of the influence
is purely manufacturing, but that has nothing to do
with the question. Here we have to consider simply why
500,000 electors should at the present moment return
160 members to Parliament, and why 400,000 electors
should return 330 members ; and a measure of Parlia-
mentary reform which we are told is " small, honest,
and just," is brought forward, which is to aggravate all
these circumstances, and increase the dispaoportion at
present existing. I ask, is the house prepared to Banc•
tiou such a proceeding? (Hear.) If there is, as I believe
there is, a sincere desire on the part of the house to
promote a just and fair settlement of this long-mooted
and contested question, I cannot conceive how you can
take a more retrogade course than by adopting the mo-
tion of the hon. member. lam not opposed to an ex-
tension of the franchise in counties. I believe that a
large number of persons now resident in counties might
be admitted to the exercise of the franchise with
great advantage to the country.—(Hear, hear,)—but
it
is impossible to resist the conviction, with the informa-
tion we have already upon this subject, that if you deal
with the county franchise you must also deal with the
franchise of the towns. (Cheers.) I cannot appeal to the
hon. member, as the noble lord at the head of the late
Government might have done, because I have no politi-
cal claim upon the hon. member, but I am bound, on the
part of the present Government to state, in vindication
of our position, and of the cause of truth, that the fair
representation 'of the people in the House of Commons
is a question which will undergo our deep and sincere
consideration—(cheers)—but, I cannot for a moment
hula out to the hon. gentleman the hope that it will be
at any time my duty to submit to the house a scheme
\like that which he has brought before it this evening.
If adopted, it would only be a partial measure, and one
which must lead to great jealousy and public inconve-
idence. I cannot doubt teat it would lead also to pro-
tracted ag tation in the country. (Elear.) It appears
to the Government that the que tion of a fair and ade-
quate representation of the people in Parliament is ene
which must be considered as a whole. ((leer, hear.)
It is ono which must be approached in a calm spirit, in
a temperate spirit, in a mood of mind very different
from that iu days lung past accompanied the agi-
tationtßhuist
hsto.iull,letenh.o:nwinaospos,es,es,
cannot doubt
dßoeufbotreathaßti,llwictahrtrhieedkniontyltehdagtehwohuisceh.
for
and with the des re which
exists ll parts of the country and among all classes
of the people, we shall come to a safe and practical solu-
tion of the difficulties by which the question is sur-
rounded. But, sir, I cannot think that we are dealing
worthily with this great subject if we admit a bill like
this, which its proposer has himself designated as a
small, honest, and just measure, and almost as a final
measure.

Mr. L. KING—No, no.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—WeII,
then, at all events, as a substitute for a final measure—
(murmursgeibi:egintnrittgsl
that
camaaLtar
rni
es
da
bheec
adue
ss
ep,a
hieire despaired
aoifd, a
from the opposition benches)--did not the hon.
ntyhoe
rt he ewr
amseaa sguerne
et hr
aaln tfeelhis
eneos at
ol t ewr nhai
which
v thee whoounl.d g takeentl e
mplaa
nc e
re f
elrfs tahree
nc iort-
well founded—if there be a prospect of dealing with the
question fait ly and honestly—then, I way, that the hon.
member is not justified in pressing his bill at this time.
I will not appeal to hint on the ground of any political
claim that I may have upon his attention, to withdraw
his bill ; but I atn bound to say, representing the Go-
vernment, and on my own part, that I cannot sanction
the bringing forward of a measure which, if carried,
would inflict a great injustice, and be a source of groat
embarrassment for future legislation. (Oh, oh, and
Miinsterial cheers.) On the:grounds, therefore, which I
base stated to the house, I cannot assent to the intro-
duction of the bill, and feel it to be my duty to meet the
motion of the hon. member by moving the previous
question. (Hear, hear, oh, oh, and laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, the right hon. gentleman
has based his opposition to the bill of my bon, friend the
member for Surrey, upon two grounds. He did not deny
that the franchise in the counties might be usefully.x-
tended. He did not deny that those persons with 101.
occupations were a respectable class and worthy to en-
j y the franchise. But the right hon. gentleman goes
off in the first place on a distinction which he is very
fond of drawing, but a distinction which I always
thought entirely devoid of foundation, namely, that the
counties have a certain number of members and a certain
number of electors, and that the boroughs have also a
certain number of members and of electors. In the first
place, I believe that the right hon. gentleman is entirely
mistaken in thinking that a straight line can be drawn
between the C tunties and the boroughs. I believe that
some of the counties—the metropolitan county and the
county of Lancashire—are so inhabited by nelsons en-
gaged in trade and carrying on business in Wens, that to
all iutents and purposes they constitute a town consti-
tuency.
le
else than
itt hiahne eatgh
uhandlturall believe that there are many
borouehe in agricultural counties which represent
h (Hear, bear.)
Therefore I coeteed that there is no sound or substantial
ground for the diAincteen which the right hon. gentle-
man attempts to draw. I remember Mr. Canning saying
that the line which separated parties was not a straight
line, but a serpentine line ; so I say that the line which
sop crates the constituencies of boroughs and counties is
not a straight line, but a serpentine one. I believe it a
happy circumstance for the country that it is so. In
other countries there era sharp lines drawn, but I think
the mixture of interests and classes in this country is a
great advantage ((fear. ) If the arguments and theory
of the right hon. gestleman were correct, they would
prove that, by the R:rforrn Act, a great advantage was
given to the counties ; because, previous to the passing
of that act, the number of county members for England
were 80, and the number for Wa'es 12, whereas we in-
creased the whole number to 150. But we did not do
that with a view to the exclusive advantage of the agri•
cultural interest. So tar from that, our main obj -ct
was to increase ;he influence of the great towns, such as
Manchester, Binningh on, and Leeds, certainly riot to
give them any preponderating influence, but to bring the
trading and tuanufactnring interests more nearly on an
coality with tie agricultura' interest. (Hear.) It the
theory of the tight hon. gentleman were right, our pro-
"e'ling in that ease would have led to a very different
conclusion. With respect to the number of elect ne, the
right h°D• gentleman says Gat there are 500,000 electors
in count es aid only 150 members. Well, but if you add
to the numbx of the electov, you would not diminish,
but add to tee weight and influence of the county toe o-
bers. (Hear) But tben the right hon. gentleman goes
on to another argument, which, if I had heard it front
my noble friend the member for Tiverton, I might per-
haps have been eisposed to listen to. The right hon, gen-
tleman tells ns that we ought to take the question as a
whele. Well, I cannot find fault with that argument,
for I used it myself seven years ago, when I introduced
a reform bill. But we have bad some experi, nee dur-
ing the years that have elapsed since then. I have in-
tot e
baen ddeamlotdweriathte.
and
.as any hon. gentleman
l find, that some diffi-
h'r:;nd.egc,enilltio„Crariearn in
will finyds,elf, but I found, as the right
who may introduce such bills
vsuiteinit
iwn'
the a hick fro from
matterthe vie:
nience from the heat and lence which accompanied
(Hear.) Though there might have been some inconve-
Ty reposed tenl
P

the agitation for the bill of 1831, yet it had this advan-
tage that the great majority of the people being in favour 1
of the measure, as they were determined to have " the

whole bill, and nothing but the bill"—it gave an im-
petus to the majority in this house, and enabled us to
carry the measure in the other House of Parliament,
On the other hand, there were some practical diiadvan-

Cages from the extremely temperate, calm, and dispas-
sionate consideration which the right hon. gentleman
gave to it. In such times, when large measures were
introduced for improving our representation, then the

private interests in that house arose in their strength.
Each section, or 'class, or intere.t found, or supposed
themselves, injured by the proposed alterations they
united to oppose ; all these sections clubbed their grie-
vances and their objections, and the result of their oppo-
sition was either to throw the measure out altogether or
to throw such obstructions in the way that it practically
came to the same thing. Sir, the last Dill I withdrew

proposed great and, as I believe, beneficial changes, brit
because it embodied a provision for the representation of

minorities, which was exceedingly obnoxious to the hon.
member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) who called it a
trick, I experienced ouch an opposition that I was com-
pelled to withdraw the bill. I was erremely surprised at
the objections raised to that particular part of the mea-
sure, and more so that the other portions, to which no
objection was made, should not have been retained. But
if these things were true, and if such are the difficulties
attendant npon the introduction of a large measure, of
which my hon, friend does not despair, but has great doubts
—(alaugh)—is it not better to take the proposition of my
hon. friend in itself, which I believe will, in practice,
be found to be one which no person can object to, and
which meets the approbation of a very large number of
persons of respectability, whose soundness of judgment
few will be ready to dispute, and thereby extend the basis
of our representation and strengthen our constitution.
(Cheers.) By so doing we shall increase the confidence of
the country, which is one of the great objects of a reform
bill, (Hear, hear.) But then the right hon. gentleman
speaks with a very natural doubt and hesitation with re-
gard to any particular measure of reform which he himself
intends to introduce. Why, Sir, I have a very strong im-
.

pression as to what was declared by the present Prime
Minister on taking office. He said, speaking in the bold
and manly way in which he is accustomed to express his
views, that the question of reform had been kept t• e.
long dangling before Parliament, but beyond that he did
not go. He took care to say that, if be came forward next
session and said that he bad no scheme to improve the
existing state of the representation, he could not be
taunted with having broken any promises or violated
any pledges. (Hear.) If that is the case, and seeing that
it is so difficult for a Minister with a large majority in
this house, and without any great ardour in the country,
to carry a reform bill, and add to that a Minister whose
majority is doubtful, and whose mind is so extremely
apathetic and lukewarm on the subject as that of the
present Prime Minister, I must say that my doubts very
much exceed my hopes. (Cheers.) I therefore think the
safe course for the house will be at once to accept this
bill. (Hear, hear.) I think the one bird in the hand of my
hon. friend the member for Surrey is preferable to the
bird in the bush of the right hon. gentleman—(laughter)
—and therefore I shall give my cordial assent to the in-
troduction of this bill. (Cheers.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE should not have spoken hut for
the charge of insincerity against the Earl of Granville
thrown out by the hon. member for Surrey. Thestatement
of Earl Granville was that the members of the late Go-
vernment did not intend to support the bill and move
amendments in committee, and it was alleged that this
could not be so, as the bill had not been brought in.
He repeated that it was true that they had come down
to the house with the intention of supporting the bill
and moving amendments in committee, but they found
that they could not move those amendments, and then
they altered their course. The hon. member had intro-
duced a bill in the previous session, and the motion
being in the same terms they had assumed the bill would
be to the same effect. They were not now in precisely
the saxee position—(a laugh)—but he thought they were
justified in taking the course they had intended in the
former case—(cheers and counter cheere)—and he for
one should vote for the introduction of the bill. (Cheers
and counter cheers ) He thought as to the question of
a partial or general measure, he did not think either ab-
solutely wrong or absolutely right. If he had confidence
in the Government, he would think it better that the
matter should be left in their hands ; but he must say,
with the noble lord the member for London, that he had
no great confidence that a measure would be introduced
next session which would be worthy the consideration
of the house. (Hear.) The Government having already
allowed a bill to be introduced touching the representa-
tion of the people in this house, they might without in-
consistency have assented to the introduction of the
bill ; in fact, they had, as it seemed to him, debarred
themselves from opposing it. His chief objmt in rising
was to correct what he was pita sure was a misappre-
hension on the part of the hon. member as to the state-
ments of the Earl of Granville.
Mr. J. H. PHILLIPS, referring to the observation
of the nobie lord, that the greater number of voters
would give greater weight te the representation, would
like to ask the gentlemen who held the important officet
of marshallers of divisions whether, when a division ran
close, they cared more whether a vo.e, which turned a
majority, was given by a member returned by 500
vt
hoot e
ius
eogru
ablyi t
y10,;f000.
the
rHe
pe r
es
e went in
t a
t inotno details
,and e
expressed
o s
p rehs
soewd
a wish that representation was more connected with
taxation. The tendency of the pressure of consti-
tuencies on the members was to increase expenditure.
There was indeed a desire to decrease general taxvion,
but to increase special expenditure. All the members
for the dockyard towns, for ia-tance, were lately obliged
to vote for an injudicious and uncalled-for increase in
the rate of dockyard wages, in defiance of the laws of
political economy, and interfering with the due opera-
tion of supply and demand. One of them, indeed, had
stood out manfuly, and refused to sanction it, no doubt
to the great diminution of his popularity with his con-
stituents, Anothe- injurious action of the pressure of
constituencies on their members was that there was a
growing disposition to what he should call giving the
British Lion an airing. (A. laugh.) That noble beast,
however, could not go abroad without a great deal of
expense—(hear, and laughter)—and some of his esca-
pades were more costly than they were worth.
Mr. LOCKE said the point had been lost sight of in
the debate. There had been minute calculations as to
the numbers of electors-in counties and towns, but the
real question was whether the persons who would be
enfranchised by the bill were a proper class to be en-
trusted with the power of voting. He thought it was
better to take such questions one by one. There were
great difficulties in introducing any large measure, which
could hardly be ex)ected to give satisfaction to a large
majority of the members. Some members considered
the ballot a sine qua non of any large measure that
should be introduced. They thought that it was useless
to give the franchise to a large number of persons with-
out the protection of the ballot, and even that without
the ballot it would be better to disfranchise, No objec-
tion had been raised to the bill on principle. As to the
British lion being let loose, he was very glad of it, and
the British lion had the approbation of all real reformers.
When they found that he had amongst his admirers at
the same time the noble lord the member or London,
and the hon. member for Ashton-ender-Lyre, it might
well be sad that extremes met—(a laugh)—and when
the British lion returned to his lair he might retire in
comfort and satisfaction.
Mr. KNIGHTLEY, who addressed the house in a
very low tone of voice, was understood to oppose the
bill, and said that many rural districts were very inade-
quately represented, and that if any places should be de-
prived of representation it was the unimportant and
nomination boroughs like Morpeth, Midburst, &c.
Mr. CLAY said that the only objection that had been
raised was that the bill would increase the existing
anomalies; but that appeared to him to he a recommen-
dation, for it had always appeared to him that the more
glaring an abuse became the better was the chance of its
being remedied. He did the members for the counties
the justice to believe that they would not consider it any
cgronievance be
thoughtelectedthbaytatergegrcioenvsatniteueenwcoyuidobe on theon
the part of the bore ugh members. The fact that a mem-
neene-.
hbear
ncreepentrheserteesdpecat liatirgwa cyhcicohnshtietuweanshedl,ildineetrhtaatinhi
y The chief point of consideration was, did the bill pro-
pose to admit a class deserving of representation ? He
believed that it did, and therefore he should support it
as an instalment of a large measure of reform.
Mr. BENTINCK said the right Lion gentleman the
member for Taunton had said that they ought to vote
black and white according to the circumstances in which
they were placed. There was great caution in that de-
claration, but it was an extraordinary one. In this
question an antagonism had been created between
borough and county representation. The noble lord said
that the influence of a member depended upon the num-
ber of his constituents. What did that mean ? That a
representative with a large constituency could give a
vote equal to two. The noble lord the member for
London represented 20,000 constituents, and the noh!e
lord the member for Tiverton represented 200, and yet
the influence of the two noble lords in that house was
about balanced. (Hear, hear.) No doubt the repre-
sentation was in a very defective state, but lie was not
prepared to give his support to this measure with a view
to amend it, as he believed it would lead to no practical
result.
Mr. COLLINS, amide loud cries for a division, said
the question they had to decide was whether the bill
would effectually amend the act of 1832. He did not
think it would, and therefore he could not support it.
It was a very popular thing to propose to swamp the
county constituencies. If it was necessary to extend
the county franchise, why did they not add the house-
holders in counties to the boroughs to which they were
contiguous ? lie was as anxious as any man to see a
reform of that hou,e, but he could not consent to such a
measure as that which was now proposed.
Mr. STANHOPE opposed the measure as being an
attempt to swamp the couLties.
Mr. L KING replie.i, aed said he did not intend this
as a final measure, but merely as a step towards same
greater measure, by the presai.t or some future Govern-
ment.

The mo ion was then put, ai.d
The SPEAKER declared that the ayes had it.
No division was called f ; and, amidst loud cheers,
leave was given to in the bill.
PILOTS (ISLE OF WIGHT,
Mr. CLIFFORD called the attention Of the house to
the state of the law affecting pilots in the 1-14 of Wight
and Portsmouth districts ; and moved for returns from
the Trinity-house,showing the rate of profits accruing to
such pilots.
The motion was agreed to, after the assent of Mr.
HENLET, who remarkei that the profits of the pilots
were not so large as to demand reduction.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Mr. J. LOCKE a-ked leave to introduce a bill to
amend an act of sth and 6th years of King William IV.,
cap. G 3, relating to weights and measures. The object

of this bill was to introduce an uniform system cf
weights and measures throughout the country. This
principle had been infringed by the decisions of the
courts of law, under which the act in question had been
interpreted.
After Mr. M'CANN, Mr. BASS, and one or two other
members had expressed approval of the bill, leave was
given to introduce it.

CHURCH RATES.
Mr. PULLER moved that this house will, to-morrow,
resolve itself into a committee, fq. the purpose of con-
sidering the expediency of providing for the repair of
churches and the maintenance of churchyards, by sub-
stituting for church rates such an annual rent charge
upon all hereditaments in respect of which church rates
may now be lawfully assessed upon the occupiers thereof,
as will most fairly represent the total annual amount
now raised by church rates; such rent charge to be a fixed
and u, Horn] poundage on the rateable value of such
hereditaments, and to be made a charge on the owners
of the same ; the proceeds of Euch rent charge in each
diocese to form a central fund from which grants may
be made towards the repair of churches and the main-
tenance of churchyards, and to be administered by a
body of persons elected for that purpose. He contended,
at some length, that the subject was one for reasonable
compromise. It was the form in which the rate was
levied of which the Dissenters had to complain, and that
form he prooosed to alter.
Mr. WIGRAM seconded the motion.
Mr. BUXTON moved as an amendment that it was
desirable that power should be given to make addition
to tithes for the maintenance of churches, and that
power should be given to churchwardens to place rentals
on the pews.
General THOMPSON seconded the motion.
Sir J. TRELAWNY opposed the motion, as turning
a contingent tax into a certain tax. The distribution of
the central fund would lead to endless dispute.

Mr. LYGON thought that Dissenters ought to be
exempted from the tax.
Sir G. C. LEWIS wished to state shortly why he coded
neither support the motion nor the amendment. (Hear.)
He Lad an objection to the motion because it proposed
a new universal and compulsory charge on the real pro-
perty of the country for the support of the church. The
hon. gentleman asked the house to make it oompulsory
and universal, and not only that, but he proposed to
take away its parochial character' and to give it a diocesan
one. (Hear.) The resolution of the hon. member for New-
port was also a proposition for adding a charge on the
real property of. the country. As the amendment stood
at present, he apprehended that it could not be put
according to the rules of the house ; but apart Iron
that, he could not agree to a proposition for making at.
addition to the tithes without knowing something more
as to its object. He thought they had to choose be-
tween the entire abolition of church rates or some modi
fled form of them. (Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE rose amidst lend cries for a
division. It appeared to him that many members
were anxious to c insider the proposition of the
hen. member for Hertfordshire. He did not believe
the house would reflect the feeling of the country if they
did not take into consideration a proposition for sup-
porting the fabric of the church out of the real pro-
perty of the country. He thought that each parish
should be allowed to exercise a control over the rates
which were levied; and with that modification he
thought the proposition of the hon. member for Hert-
fordshire would be acceptable to many members on his
side. 'there were some members on the opposite side
who wished to see church-rates altogether abolished as
a steppingstone to the die establishment of the church,
but he was sure that there were many others who ban
no such intention, and he hoped they would support the
motion of the hon. member f it Hertfordshire.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had already declared
that he
.thought the proposition of the hon. member
for Hertfordshire fair matter for consideration. He
had examined his proposition since then, and felt
bound to say that the two objections urged by his right
hon. friend seemed to be sound objections. (Hear,
hear.) He thought it objectionable to impose a rent
charge upon property which had been for a long tivie
exempted from the payment of church rates. He also
considered it objectionable to place the control of the
rate in the hands of a body in each diocese. As long
as the chargeexisted,it ought to be a parochial one. (Hear,
hear.) With regard to the subject itself, he had only to
say that he could not understand how they could have
a national church establishment without some pro-
v,sion for the repair of places of worship. (Hear, hear.)
It did not seem to him to be reasonable to say that they
would have a provision for the payment of the ministers
but none for the maintenance of the churches. (Hear,
hear.) However, seeing the contests and ill-feeling to
which church rates gave rise, he was willing to listen to
any proposition of a reasonable subeti+ute. (Hear.) He
felt great objection to the proposition of the right hon.
gentleman, but he would assent to it rather than leave
the question a matter of strife. He should feel obliged
to vote again, t the proposition for the absolute abolition
of church rates. (Hear, hear.) He should also vote
against the proposition of the hon. member for Hert•
fordshire.
Mr. WA LPOLE thought that the hon. member for
Hertfordshire had clearly shown that the absolute abo-
tion of church rates was only a mode of putting into the
pockets of the landlords a large sum that did not belong
to them. (Hear.) He adopted that view of the ques-
tion, but at the same he thought the objections urged by
the light hon. gentleman (Sir G. C. Lewis) were linens
swerable. He would suggest to the right hon. genti
man that he should bring forward the substitute he pro•
posed when sitting on the ministerial side of the house
—(lau;h'er)—in part of which, he (\lr. Walpole) agreed,
and from part of which he die-ented. He dissented from
that part. of the plan which proposed that they should
abolish church rates, because they were nut now levier
in certain places. He thought it w.,u'd be a premium
on agitation if they were to say that church rates were
not levied in future where they were refused. But he
so far agreed in the justice of that part of the plan which
said that an oppertunity should be afforded, notwith-
standing the Mortmain law, of making voluntary provi-
sion for the repair of the church fabric, that he regretted
the proposition had ever come before the house. He
saw no objection against allowing persons who had con -
scienttous objections to the payment of church rates to
ascent) from the payment of them, such persons, at the
same time, giving up their claim to the privileges which
belonged to churchmen. (" H ar, hear," and "No,
no.") Meantime, however, he could only say that he
should oppose, with regret, the motion for going into
committee of the whole house.
Mr. ROEBUCK was not surprised at the proposition
of the right hon. gentleman that his side of the house
should aid the government in their functions and get
them out of their difficulty. (Hear.) It the right hon.
gentleman felt so strongly on the matter, and thought
that the bill which passed the second reading was so
detrimental, why did he not, in his character of a
minister of the crown—(cheers)—come forward with a
proposition agreeable to his own feelings, and in accord-
ance with the principles he advocated. (Hear.) From
this the right hon. gentleman shrunk, and called upon
his side of the house to perform the duty?' He (Mr.
Roebuck) was one of those persons who were not at all
inclined to do the duty of any one. The second reading
of the bill for the abolition of church rates had passed
the house, and he felt strongly inclined to think that the
question would be settled that session. But they would
listen to no compromise. (Hear.) One half of the
parishioners throughout the country had refused to pay
church rates, and yet the house was now asked to make
them a permanent rent charge on the country. If the
question was to be argued as a political-economical ques-
tion, he should be quite prepared to discuss it at a time
when it could be fully argued.
Mr. WIGRAM expressed a hope that the hon. mem-
ber fir Hertfordshire would take the opinion of the
house on the resolution which he had proposed. By
the common law of this country the obligation existed
on perishes of maintaining the fabric of the church, and
the principle of the r-solution was nothing more than
the substitution in the place of that common law oblige.
tion of an annual rent charge.
Mr. BUXTON having withdrawn his amendment.

Mr. PULLER briefly-replied, stating that he would
not give the houi,e the trouble of dividing. (Loud cries
of Ob, ob, and No, no.)
On the question that the motion be withdrawn there
were loud cries of No, no, and the SPEAKER declared
that the " noes ' had it.
The hue then divide]. The numbers were :
For the motio❑
Against it
Mr. AYRTON, understanding that Mr. Lygon meant
to mow for leave to intr, duce a bill on church rates,
moved the adj )urnment of the house.
After a conversation,
Sir G. C. LEWIS suggested that as several orders of
th 9 day stood on the paper, the motion fur adjourn-
ment ought not to be pressed.
Mr. WALPOLE said if they now took a division for
the adj ,urnment it was evident when they came back
there would be other divisions, and it would be impos-
sible f it the bon. member to get to his motion to-night.
Mr. LYGON said he would postpone his motion until
to-morrow (, his day).
THE POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a sec,,ud time.
CHELSEA HOSPITAL (PURCHASE OF LANDS

BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
EXCISE DU I'IES BILL.
This bill pa.sed through corn :.ittee.
CUSTOMS DUTIES, NO, 2, BILL.
Thie bill rased through committee.
Mr. LOCKS KING'S bill for the extension of the county
franchi4e was brought in and read a first time, and
ordered to he read a second time on the 11th of May.
The house then adjourned at five minutes to one.

PAIRS ON THE ADMISSION OF JEWS INTO
PARLIAMENT.
Against For Against For
llarewool, Earl Clifden, Vlset. 51an:SAd, Earl Kinnaird, Lord
Erne, Earl De Freyne, Ld. Plunket, Lord Graiard, Earl
Galloway, Earl Vivian, Lord Aylcsford, Earl Panmure, Lord
Rosslyn, Earl P,,rtsmoalli,Erl.,Delamere, Lord Leinster, Duke
Manvers, Earl Eoxburghe, Dlc. !Eglintou, Earl Conyoghtun,

Clanearty, Earl Talbot de Mala-
hide, Lord
Bayninz, Lord Lothian, Marqs.
St. John, Lord Bedford, Duke
Orford, Earl Mon-on, Lord
Maynard, Visct. Yarborough,Erl.
Lineo:n, Bishop London, Bishop
Salisbury, Bishp. Ailesbury,Marq.
Clanwiliiatn,Erl. Shelburne, Earl
Gray, Lord Poltimore, Lord
Drogheda, Mrqs. Wharneliff,, Ld.
stradbroxe, Earl Radnor, Earl
Poulett, Earl Devon, Earl
Kilmaine, Lord Morley, i..arl
accleafleld, Erl Leigh, Lord
Middleton, Lord Willotighby de
Ereeby, Lord
Guildford, Earl Strafford, Earl

Marquis
Jersey, Earl Clare, Earl
Glengall, Earl ltoseberry, Earl
Richmond, Duke Donegall, Maf q.
Methuen, Lord Broughton, Lord
Long ford, Earl Exmouth, Visct.
Strathallan, Vise Carrington, Lord
Westmeath,Mar Aberdeen, Earl
Vane, Eat I Ravensworth,Ld
Winchester, Mar Camperdown,
Earl
Ailsa, Marquis Carew, Lord
Ab,rgave,,ny, Blantyre, Lord
Earl
Forrester, Lf rd Falkland, Vise t.
Twe :Manners, Lord
Canterliury,Visc Endeld, Visct.