The Sun.
London, England, 1803-03-15 00:00:00

Dedud;-Public Participition

2,200,000
Supposing two Millions raised, in aid of Sinking
Fund, by adding to Capital, dedua Interest at
5 per Cent. - OP Too,ooo

2, 100,000
. .
Nett Proceeds, subjeel to ulterior appropriations,
viz.—t.6th to Proprietors to increase Dividends. 350,000.
5-6 tn to he invested in the Funds to counter.
secure Capital - - zmo,ooo

2,100,000

The operation of the above appropriation until
the year 5813.1+, when the Charter would expire,
unless sooner renewed, would be to increase the
Company's Dividends annually, by, one.half, viz.
350,0001. and to accumulate, at '4 per cent. Com-
pound interest, during. the five years, a gdarantee
Fund of 9,485,0001. • .
In the event of War, the Indian Surplus Must be
necessarily reduced. The Reduaions of Charge
since the Peace, amount per estimate to '783,0001.
per Annum. Allowing for a War Establishment
equal in extent' to that at the close of the late War,
there will still remain nett proceeds 717,0c0i.
But to mAke the most ample allowance, take the
War charges at •r,000,0001. there will still remain
nett proceeds 500,0001. applicable to the reduction
of debt.—ln this case the participation of the Pub-
lic would necessarily be suspended during War, and
would revive upon the, reductions' resulting from
Peace..

With such A disposable surplus, provided the
, transfer of 'Funds from Europe to India, .shall meet
with no interruption in time of War, the cunir4(7l.
ing of fresh Loans may not only be avoided, but a
system of liquidation upon principles similar to those
above stated, be pursued even durin& War, though
necessarily upon a reduced scale.
For executing the above measure, and for the ex-
tension of Trade, the Company possess the follow-
ing available Resources
May add to their Capital two Millions, at 220 per
Cent. - - .4,4•0,000
More Bonds may be jailed with consent of Trea-
sury 1,000,000

Suppose as above, raised for Sinking Fund

Remains for extension of Tiade -

5,4°°,000
2,000,000

3,403,000

Having gone 'through the whole of this Statement
with the greatest clearness and precision, his Lord.,
ship said, that although the continuance of Peace
must be to India, as it must he to this Country, and
to the whole World, the greatest blessing, yet, if
contrary to our hopes arid, endeavours we should be
again plunged into a War, he was sure, there was
no part of our Empire better prepared to meet the
alternative of War, than the India Company. They
had now finished a War of ten years continuance
they had not only to contend against the European
War, but they also had to contend with the Powers
of India. In fad, it might be said, that they had
been constantly at War since the , first operations
of Lord CORNWALLIS. All this they bad done
with unimpaired means, with undiminished re-
sources ; they had now an Empire double in extent
and in revenue, and, although they had added ten
millions to theit Debt, their, means had increased.
in a corresponding ratio. If this was their situation
in a period of War, what would. have been their
condition Win the enjoyment of Peace? But their
Revenue had nut only kept up in the manner he had
stated, they had also provided against great and
heavy Establishments; they had made arrangements
for mole comfortable provision for the Officers aod •
Troops on their Establishment; they had also made an
establishment for the better adminisiratibn of justice,
and all this bad made an increase in their expenditure
.of near one million a-year, a sum almost equal to the
amount of the interest of their Debt. This statement
must he Was sure, be satisfattory to the Public, and
must shew that there was every probability of this
Country
,deriving a great and essential support from
India, and that' the Company would have the means,
at no remote period, of paying to the Public a sum of
half a million a year; and of reinforcing the Sinking
Fund with no less than one milliOn and a Italia year.
This completely justified the statement of his Noble
Friend, who had preceded him in the Office he now
held,; and whose predietions %vapid have been sooner
verified if it had not been for the War in which this
country was engaged. in the event of another
`War, this Country must; for a time, give up the
annual ha:l million which the Company was to pay,
but the Company would have one million
4.yeg applicable to the teduaion of its Debt, which,

liven upon the least rirourable c4tcutatiott, much
discharge it in-twelve years. Therefore, in what.
ever view the .subjed was considered, whether in
the alternative of Peace or. War, there was_ no
ground for alarm, but the most solid and will_
grounded rasped of,prosperity. He had thought
Chis duty to submit, these considerations to, the
ommittee as subjeCts which they ought to tinder-
stand, Sand if he himself understood the subject, the
pro Sped was founded upon the_most solid baSis. If
the Peace continued, the Public would next year ob-
tain their particiption. of the Company's Surplus
Revenue, and the Company would have z,000,0001,
applicable to the reduttion of its Debt. If War un.
fortunately took place, this Country must forego
for a time the halt million a year, but the CoMpany
would still have one million a year for the liquid,a-
lion of its Debt. He should now move the Reso-
lutions, but if any Gentleman wished for further
time to consider the subjed, the Resolutions might
be moved pro forma at present, and the discussion
postponed to another day. _ _ _

He then moved the first Resolution--

Mr. JOHNSTONE, said, he should not trouble
the House many minutes ; he had to observe, that the
Indian Debt- had greatly increased within a short
time on looking over the Papers, he found that
the Company were seven hundred thousand pounds
worse at this period than they were a few years
back. He said, the money owing to them was to
be considered as bad debts, which in all probability
they never would receive. Some of the, Accounts
contain very, accurate statements, but many others
of the Accounts are very incorreCt ; and he would
venture to say, that when the "Company paid 'all
their legal Debts, they would find a deficiency of
many thousand's. The extraordinary Revenue arose
from the Company having such a desire for territo.
rial possessions, which involved the Company in
additional and unnecessary expence. The Customs
also came under his observation, which he very
much disapproved of, as inimical to the prosperity
of that Country : he said, every article that was
sold-in India bore a heavy tax the same species
of tax was known in Spain, which had in souse
measure reduced the importance of the Trade of
that Nation. But which Tax Lord CORNWALLIs
(whose policy was 'soma' and brilliant) had repealed
in India, from a thorough cony ielion of its ill rads
to that Country.. The successive Estimates of the
State of that Country prove that the,expenditure has
gone much farther than was expeCted ; he stated that
the trade 'of China had been more profitable to the
Company, than the trade of any, other part of India.
The Court of Direaars had told the Public, that
thelndian Debt had increased to twelve hundred
thousand pounds, which arose from their extraor.
dinary disbursements,' but which has been found to
turn out a deficiency of eighteen kindred thousand.
He observed,, that his_ Lordship had told us with
great pleasure, „that we have increased the Indian
territories, by which we had received 'many advarn.
rages ; but he .was sure that we had reduced the
consequence of the Country. He said, that we had
committed a breach of faith in India, and that we
had been guilty of as.much injustice in India, as the
French had been in Europe. lie concluded by say-
ing that the Estimates presented to the House were
farfrrodnicaciicmtes, and not to be depended upon.
Lord
REACH. said, he' did not wish
to enter ions a discussion on, the subjedao.night,
nor did he wish the Vote of the House till they had
minutely examined the Estimates laid before them ;
yet he could not help saying, that the Learned .Gen.
tleman had misconceived Many parts of the Esti.
mates. His Loidship then entered into a long ex-
planation, which was only a recapitulation of his
former- Statement, and concluded by saying, that
when the Resolutions were read, he should be happy
to hear any Gentleman address the Committee on the
question ; and he should also be happy to give every
explanation that 'could possibly be wished for.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
-said, he should not have said a word on the present
subjen, had it not been for an expression made use
(Irby the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last. He had
charged our condua in India as a breach of gOod
faith.l - The Hon. Gentleman ,must allow him to
complain of this statement, and of the time in which
it was made", for it was a time When the subject to
which the assertion referred, could not be examined,
and. when therefore no corre4 opinion could be
formed by an individual, Upon the. subjeft ; it was
therefore to him a matter of regret that this asser.
tion had been made;* therefore he would ask of the
House, and he was confident that lie should not ask
in :vain, that they would keep their minds clear'
upon the matter and free of bias, until they should
have an opportunity of looking into all the circum-
stances of it, and this he was aware the House
would do 'without any suggestion from him, but he
stated this merely by way of caution to some.india
' viduals, because he knew-that unfavourable impres
skins might be made, when boldohough groundless
assertions were made, afteaing the charadel.s of
meritorious individuals, who had, been zealously
engaged in the 'service of their Country. It was
too-much that they should be made to sufferin their
charatter him a broad unfounded assertion ; ft was
painful to suppose that they might be affected in
this manner, and that they should, fur a time even,'
be deprived of that which was a considerable part
of their reward, namely, the approbation of their
Country ; the whole of their conduct therefore ought
to be left untouched, until they had an opportunity
to explain it themselves, or by those who might
derive information from' them when they returned,
when he had no doubt their conduCt would,do.them-
honour I for these reasons he begged leave to object
to the expression of the Hon. Gentleman which
stated that Great Brialtin -was stigmatized With a
breach of, faith in India. He begged pardon Of the
Committee for having called its attention aside upon
:this occasion for a moment, but it appeared to him
to be a debt to JUstier, to rake care that no inju.
rious impression shooh;a4ie matte on the charaeters of
gallant men who had ao bravely acted in the service
of their Country.
Sir lIUGH INGLIS supported the conduCt of
the East India Company. He gave an account of
the Trade, Public and Private, for the last four
years, and maintained, that it was &great objeft
to this Country to preserve it in its present course,
instead-of suffering it, to run into another channel.
Ke thotightit necessary disO to do away false

. ,
prest;ons, tyhteli might fie nude by unfounded as_
sertions.

W. FRANCIS .objeaed fo the ttatement of the
Noble. Lord who brought this subject forward this
night, because the whole of It proceeded on esti-
mates, which contained many things which might
or might not be made good ; and also some false
documents. He looked upon all estimates as no
better than promises ; and although he had no claim
to, infallibility, yet he possessed some experience
upon this subjea ; but he •should Speak this night
as a mere Member of Parliament, as' if he
had never been in India. Nov these Estimates
were no berter than promises, and he knew
very well that promises had been held out from
year toyear, but the result was, that the HEIN of
the Company were always rather worse afterwards
than when the promises were made Nothing could
be more distinst than that, on the renewal of fl.e.
Charter, 500,0001. a year was to have been paid
by the Company to the Public, upon which, how_
ever, no more had ever been adually received than
the fruits of one rear. The Noble Person who.had
the arrangement of these affairs formerly-under his
care (Lord Viscourt Mel,' LLO had considered the
Affairs of India as if there had been no War to inter.
fere in the arrangement, and now the Noble Lord
could not make the difference he proposed in his
statement as between War and Peace, Witilf)Ut de.
setting the system of his Noble Predecessor. The
Noble Lord had said, that India would never be a
drain on this Country,. but might afford it, material
support, in which he adopted the language of his
Noble Predecessor ; but it was not to be forgotten,
that was a promise, which had been held our for the'
last twenty 'years, but 'which -had never yet been
kept. So much of promises, and Estimates, which
were no better than promises. He then proceeded
to take a view of the Accounts which had been laid
before the House on the part bf the India CoMpany,
and contended they were extremely defeaive, and
that the whole statement of to-night was fallacious,
and. therefore not to be relied ;, he charged the
Accounts with having been fabricated for the pur.
pose of imposing on the House and the Public by
\making a false balance. He contended that the capi.
tal stock of the East India Company ought to have
been stated, which it was not. It was stated in the'
year 1793, and amounted to no less than 7,807,0001. ;
there was also a claim stated by the Company,
amounting to 3,000,0001. which the Noble Lord him.
self said was of a nature that made it doubtful whether
it would be allowed or not, so that this made the real
state of the Accounts of the Company r0,0a0,0001.
more than it appeared ,on the face of the present
Statement. He contended, that upon fair state.
'merit of the Accounts of the :India Company, instead
of a balance in their favour, it would be against
them. He complained of these Statements as con-
trivances to give to. the House and to the Public, a
false view of the affairs of the East India Company,
and that made him have recourse to his original.
proposition, that upon the subjed of the East India,
Company's Affairs, promises had been • held out
from year to year•which had never been realized.

Lord C ASTLERE AG If admitted that it was
fair that the accounts of the affairs of the East India
Company should be examined, but the Committee
would recollea that what was now before it was a
comparison of the afftirs of the Company at different
perimis, chiefly with a view of, considering whether
the War had injured their affairs or not,.and com-
paring all the debts of the Company and thEir assets
together.—The Hon. Gentleman had said that these
accounts were given in with a view of giving incur.
reef information, and this he said, was done by leay.
ing out of the account the whole of the Capital of the
Company, which he stated to he above seven mil-
lions. There was no force in this objedion ; there
could be no imposition upon any body by this, be-
cause it was known by every -body what the
amount of that Capital was, and leaving out of
the account that which was perfealy notorious,
could answer no purpose' whatever of imposit.ion,
and therefore when the Honourable Gentleman called
this a false account for the purpose of imposing
upon the Public, he was carrying the argument fur.
then than, upon reflefflon, he would be inclined to
do. He took off from the account the whole of
the Note of the Charge made as being due to the
India Company from Goveinment. ' Whether it
was to fall on Government or on the Company, was
a point hereafter to be determiped, but it could oily
be stated 'in the way it had been. As to the result
of the statement, the Hon. Gentleman might make
it for himself. It would stand thu4 :—Debts in
Europe, including the Capital which the Hon. Gen.
tletriAn alluded to, ' amounted to 2,600,0001.-•.. r.
Debts in, India, bearing Interest, t6,000t0001.
Assets in Eurcipe were t 7,000,0001.-111
Gooo,oool. making in all, 28,000,0001. 'in this
account there was no Dead Stock stared, though ,
that was of great value ; nor was this all the pro-
perty.of the Company, for it must be remembered,
that they had great territorial possessions. in India,
besides what they derived under the Sweeping
Clause of their Charter, alai therefore there was a
vast mass of property in the Company, which was
not brought to the Credit side of this Account, and
therefore the Committee would clearry.see, flair this
was not an account laid before them for the purpose
Of imposing a false balance in favour of the Com.
patty. The truth of the matter was this—that after
discharging all their engagements,. the Company
will have-One million a year, even in case of War,
applicable to the teduktion of their Debts, and if
there was another such Company in this. world, he
should be glad to be informed where to find it.
Mr. FILMIC'S persisted in his former Statement,
and maintained that hp was borne out by the Ac.
counts now upon the Table.
Mr. Will. DUND AS Observed, that the manner
in which his Noble Friend had opened this subjedi
was so clear that there was but little to go over in
the Accounts again ; but something stated by the
Hon. Member who spoke last, called for an answer, •
and that which he should give, should be very short.
The Hon. Gentleman said, that the Account before
the Committee was false, inasmuch as it did not
contain the Capital Stock :of the Company,
By this one would think, there was some mystery
about the matter, that there was something un.
known about it ; bur instead of that, it was it mat.
ter of so perfed a nototiety, that one of the Clerks
of the India. House would land'!, at attlY

made a question upon it, Imposition was therefore
itennf.sible in this case--The Hon. Gentleman had
said that- he was not infallible ; he was glad of that
a surance from himse,f, otherwiA he. could not have
- been- bohrenough to offer any',anstv'er to him. For
want -of that absolute •inhillibility to• which the
Honourable Member approached, he had by the
merest accident omitted to take notice of one
lane which was at the head of this Accoupt, and
in the very .Title of it : for it was stated to
be an Account of the Affairs of the: East-India
Company,. " exclusive of , their Capital Stock."
And this was the account.,thatovas framed. for the
purpose of deceiving the Public by omitting that
which they:professed to omit, but this was the ob-
servation of an Hon. Gentleman Wl.O was not infal-
hide. As to what had been said upon the condua
of the NoblAiLord (Lord M 1,1,, LLE) who preceded
Nolif..t. Friend in' this Department,. Mr. Dundas
. .saild-that. he had stood some time in the light of a
-.parent to Mtn, that any, thing be could say of him
Must, ofeourie be accompanied by partiality as well
as veneration. That Noble person,stood upon Isis
character in that House, and before the Phlic, by
whOm he was well known, and he hoped esteem-
ed..,.l3ut the Honourable Gentleman had said that
••• that Nolale Person had, for the last twenty
• years, held out promises which had not been
'kept, on the, Affairs of the East India Company,
that he had made no difference in his comparative
• Statements between a. time of Peace and a time of
War. In the first place, for twenty years he would
not have made this comparative Estimate as between
Peace and War at all, because for much of that
time there was no War, nor did this comparative
Estimate commence until' the year 1793, which was
the, period of the renewal of the Charter of the Com-
pany. But since that period, the Noble Lord al-
luded to had uniformly made a difference between
the Estimate in time of Peace and that. of War, and
, that the so° 0001.. a. year from the Company to the
Public could (lever be thought of until a time of
Peace'; and yet the Hon. Gentleman had roundly
• said that that Noble Lord , had made no difference
between peace and War, in the Statement of the
Affairs of the East India Company, hut then this
came froM a Gentleman who was not quite infallible.
Mr. FRANCIS explained.
Sir F.'1,1 ARING ohservedi that the Noble Lord
who' had brought forward this important business,
had speeulated upon some topics in which he could
not follow him ; but the Noble Lord had an ardent
mind, and took upon himself a burden which ano-
ther had staggered under for many years. The
Noble Lord who had for many years had, the super-
' intendance of the affairs of the Company; had some
time siisce published sometliing,of a Political'Testa-
ment He had sfated that the Company, by great
eacerions in time of Peace, might pay off one mil-
litrit The Company had entertained an
idea of doing this in a more vigdrouS Manner, and
instead of paying off one million, to pay two mil.
lions annually, and not to create one penny addi-
' tional Stock. The Noble Lord's Predecessor, .in
his calculation for the thirteen years, never alluded
to the soo,oool. participation of the Public,
which.the Notate Lord this night premised to the
Public. He believed, that in a few years the Pub-
' lic would have the gratification of seeing that paid,
provided peace continued. His principal reason
for"rising was, to take notice of what the Noble
'Lord said respealog the increase of Capital Stock,
or Debt. That was a matter which the Court of
Direetors would receive 'with great reludance ; and
by the attention which the Noble Lord paid to the
affairs of die East India CoMpany he would observe,
that great promos was made by them in •the pay-
ment of ..their, Debts in India, without raising.
Stocka but, the mode propos:al would be taking
money away from commercial purposes, and apply-
ing it to the payment of political Debts. The
Capital already in the Service of the India Company
was fully adegnate to the pay meat of their Debts.
Lord CASTLEREAGII said, lie did not mean
.• •
to express any opinion how far it would be proper
for the East India Company to raise Fonds, by
adding to the Capital of the Company's Debt. He
had stated, that no more. than two millions would be
wanted, and that in the worst point of view, there
would be three millions applicable to the purposes
--of their Commerce. He would not now enter into
the 'question,' of whether it was expedient to refer
to these resources for the payment of their Dcbts;
perhaps they might raise their Credit by redeemable
Securities in Europe. The Company had no diffi-
culty, fur whether they added to their Capital or
not, they wotild in time of war have one million,
in time of peace two millions, applicablc'to the re-
elation of their Debt annually, after providing for
An their engagements.
Sir T, Al ETC ALFE proceeded to answer the ob.
servations of Mr. FRANC Is he said they were un-
founded, and he defied that Hon. Member to shew
wherein the Statement now upon the Table was
false. He had abused all the India Company ; he
bad said theylnid fabricated accounts, for the pur-
pose of deceiving the, Public with a false balance :
he would tell that Hon. Member that he had assert.
ed this inearreetly ; and he would-tell him further,
that every' Member of the Court of Direaors of the
India Company_ was as incapable as he was of mak-
ing out a false account for the Public, or of im-
posing on any body. Hi denied this charge, and he
told that lion. Gentleman that he Could not prove it.
,He would .iiso.ask whether it was likely that this
was a fabricated Account on the part of the Com-
pany ?--Had it been fabricated they would have
made it in their own favour, whereas this was against
theinselves, and in favour of the Public. He wished
Gentlemen tO take some care of What they aaid ;
that Hon. Gentleman hest- knew why he made this
attack on the Areaors of the East India CoMpany,
'but this he knew, it was no light matter to charge
them with fabricating false Accounts for purposes
• of deCeptioq. The rionobrable Baronet who had
lately spokeni had
.diffe'red in some .pointi from
the,Noble Lord who had brought this subjel for_
ward, but then he h4(.1 too much candour and libera.
lity to Charge the Accounts as being false to deceive
any body. The truth of the matter was that the
real situation of the affArs of the Company had
undergone great alteration both at home and abroad.
In forme r times it frequently happened that the
..Compauy was rich in Bengal, but poor in England,
pogAt 111 ii relt:.:Se was the civic, lfor abroad tb")' had
we,ro. rirt. Ti'.... .1..