The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-13 00:00:00

185 S.

- - .
and he did not. believe there were five gentlemen in the
house who differed from him on that point—that this
was a question which could only be brought forward by
Government, and if they were willing to abdicate their
functions as a Government the house w uld not permit
them so to do. (Opposition cheers.) He could not see
i any advantage n proceeding by way of resolution. His
noble friend (Lord J. Russell) had quoted the precedent
of 1313. He (Sir C. Wood) did not think it applied to
the present case. In 1813 there were a great many ques-
tions raised which bad long since been put to sleep, and
which were of a very difficult nature—que,tions which
referred to trade and navigation, and which must neces-
sarily have come before a committee of the whole house.
Oa that occasion, it his memory were correct, Lord Cas-
tlereagh moved 14 resolutions. One resolution referred
to the government of India, another to the trade with
athird to trade with China, a fourth tothe powers
of the Governor General in Council. In fact, there were
14 different enbjects comprised in the 14 resolutions.
That was not the case now. None of these questions
of trade and navigation were now before the house
nor was it proposed to bring them before the house
either in the bill of the late or in that of the preterit Go-
vernment (Hear.) Still more, as it seemed to him, did
the present case differ from that of 1813, much of the
mater that entered into the bill of that year being
omitted in the bills now before the house. The only
topic to be considered at present was the home govern-
ment of India, in what manner that government should
be con•tituted, and upon that subject there seemed to
him to be no practical difference of opinion. The main
question raised was whether the government of India
should in future he ex- reised in the name of the green,
and upon lhat pint they were all agreed. The late
Government was supported in its proposition to that
effect by a !ergo mejority, and the present Government
had made a similar proposal. He did, not, therefore,
see how legislation could be advanced by proceeding b 3
way of resolution. Unless the Government had changed
their minds zip to the best mode of forming a government
for India—unless they DOW thought that the proposal
which they had made was not a good one and ought to
be abandoned, he did not see how they could propose
resolutions upon which to found a bill. Such a course
would be a mere waste of time, unless the Government
had changed their minds and wished for a decent excuse
for withdrawing their hill. (Cheers )
Mr. ELLICE, sea., considered it was the duty of the
Executive Government to bring forward resolutions as
proposed. He also considered legislating on this subject
would rather be retarded than furthered by the course
lroposed.

Mr. WALPOLE said he had risen in consequence cif
the observations of the right hon. gentlemen opposite
(Sir C. Wood), seconded by those of the right hon. gen
Osman who had just sat down. He thought both those
right hon. gentlemen had mistaken the purport and in-
tention of hes right hon. frietid'et (the Chancellor of the
Exchequet'e) remarks intimating his willingness to ac-
cede to the kindly propesal r f the noble lord (Lord J.
Russell). In point of fact his right hon. friend said dis-
tinctly that he did not shrickfrom the responsibility, and
he believed he did not intend to shrink from the respon-
sibility—(Opposition cheers)—which properly belonged
to the execteive Government, of proposing to the house
any measures which might he called for with reference
to se large and important a question as that of the go-
vernment
of our empire in India. What his right hon.
friend did say was this, that the house was in possession
of two bills, one introduced by the late, and the other
by the present administration ; teat the house being in
possession of those two bill., it would not become him,
as the organ of the Government in that hous), to aban-
don the proposition which he himself had made to the
house, unless he found, agreeably to his own opinion,
the house preferred, having regard to the discussion of
the question, that they should go into a committee of the
whole house. Now, he quite agreed with his right lion.
friend, that when it was intended to embrace in one
measure certain great and comprehensive principles, it
was advisable—arid that was the ground taken by Lord
Liverpeol in 181$—that those priecii les should be can-
vassed, discussed, deliberated upon, and, if possible, de-
cided upon in the first instance, so that a hen the house
came to deal wi.h the mea-ure the main principles would
have been settled. Torre was this advantage in that
mode of proceeding, that the house would under its forms
have an opportunity of ventilating the question in every
possible point of view, instead of discussing on the second
reading a bill which might involve more principles than
one, and might be supported or opposed on mars grounes
than one. Ile agreed with the right hon. erentleenan
opposite (Sir C. Wood), that the precedent of 1813 was
founded partly on the notion that trade was involved.
Looking to what fell from the noble lord opposite, he
thought the house ha i intimated unmistakeably by its
cheers, that it thought some proposition should he made
which wrath' enable them to discuss and decide upon
this important questiou with as little reference as possi-
ble to party—(hear)—but he was sure his right hon.
friend cad not inccnri to convey that the Government
'sidled to abdicate th,ir functions—functions which they
would endeavour to discharge a ith satisfaction to the
house, with satisfaction to the Queen who had celled
up m them to s, rye her, and with satisfaction to the
country whose welf ire it was their desire to promote.
Mr. MANGLES toped the house would allow hi,n to
offer a very few observations with regard to an expree-
pion which fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The right hon. gentleman said it was probable that party
spirit would prevail iii the debates on this subject. Now
be entreated the house, with all hurnili•y and deference,
but with the utantel earnestness which he was capable of,
not to allow any such feeling to enter into the discussion
of that momentous question. The greatest authorities
on Indian subjects, amongst whom he might especialy
mention his lamented friend the late Lord Metcalfe, had
expressed it as their (minion that India would be placed
in extreme jeopardy by the introduction of party spirit
in legislation for her ; and he believed every man who
was acquainted with India would coir.cide in that view.
(Hear.) It wag of course not to be expected that the
the Court of Directors, representing the East India
Company, should acquiesce cheerfully in a rneakure
which would abolish their functions, believing, as they
did, that their administration of Indian affairs had been
beneficent, honourable to themselves, a d adva,:tageous
to the country ; nut he would ray for himse f and for
the gentlemen with whom he was associated, that as
soon as it shot/lobe deteimir ed by the will of Parlia-
ment to place India under the direct administration of
the Crown, they would, without any reference to
party, give their best assistance in carrying out any
measure which that house might in its wusdotn think

the best fitted for the government of the countryli
(Cheers.) It bad always been the pride and the b act
of the Curt of Ellrect,ra that, whatever might be the
individual .entiments of its members, as a body they had
no politics, as a body they had kept themselves free from
any party associations. He was sure that would be the
case now, and be earnestly entreated the house to act
a similar spirit. In stich a case as th 44, it would be an
eternal disgrace to them to suff-r any pasty considera-
tions to influence them with regard to any proposal
which might be made, from whichever side of the house
it wigt:t proceed.
_ _

Mr. AYRTON expressed his surprise at the course
about to be pursued. Having an objection to the bill,
he had thet evening given notice of a motion for the
second reading that day ,ix months, for which it was
set down for second reading. It now appeared that the
bit was to be withdrawn, and the house proceed on the
resolutions. He could not see the wisdom of such
course, and he thought both bills should be disposed of
by the house on their merits.

Lerd PALMERSTON-1 entirely concur with my
hon. friend the member for Guildford (Mr, Mangle),
that the question of the government of India ought not
to be made a party queatton between the two sides of the
house. This is far too important a matter to be made the
shuttlecock of party--(hear, hear)—and I, for my part,
am perfectly prepared and desirous to discuss any ar-
raegernent whatever that may he suhnitted to the consi-
deration of this hou e upon its own merits, and with a
dee regard to the national importance of the subject.
(Hear, hear.) Sir, I am so deeply impressed with the im-
portance of the arrangements you are going to establish
for the government of India that, although I think the
government should be transferred from the Beet Leila
Cernpany to the Crown, still I should prefer things being
left as they are to the passing of a bill which could be
objectionable in its provisions, because we know the ut-
most inconvenience which can arise from deferring legis-
lation to another year, while we cannot equally anticipate
the evils which wry result from a bad organisation of the
future government of India. (Hear, hear.) I shell not now
express the opinion which I entertain with regard to the
bill which the present Government propose. But with
respect to the preference which it is said should be given
to the mode of proceeding by resolutien, I would beg to
submit to the consideration of the house that that mode of
proceeding is inapplicable t the present state of thing.
and would be a departure from the ordinary practice of
this house. There are certain matters, with regard to trade
and so on, in reference to which the rules of Lhe house
require that betore a bill is introduced the house should
a.rPe, by resolutions adapted in a committee of the whole
hou:e, to the tutiderneetal prineinles on which the
proposed measure should rest. But those rules are
limited to a certain description of subjects, and I appre-
hend that the subject of the government of India, as ib is
now presented to us, does not fall within the scope rf
those rules, and that, consequently, we are not obliged
to psy any regard to the regulations under which this
house proceeds by resolution in preference to a bill. If
thet were the case, the last Government and the present
one would have committed a violation of the rules and
orders of the house ' • and as the course adopted by both
administrations has been sanctioned and nut found fault
with, I may venture to conclude tha.t there is no Parlia-
mentary necessity for proceeding in this case by reellu•
Lion. Well, then, if the arrangement were suppos-11.,e°
eentain some principle so important that it was dctitreeti_i.f
that it should be discussed by itself in a committee
the whole house, that principle must be the one_ owamely,
is
the foundation of both the bills before u India
that of the transference of the governmentthresponsibl
from the East India Comparry
tthst Principle is,
advisers of the crown. But that by the house
I apprehend admitted, fled I apprehend it
bear,—
but by the country—(hear,
from the which we
would be entirely going backdi,cuss the !
queston whether
have made to begin nor
":.hould or should not be trans-
the government 11ilaea • ) Well, then, if the principle
is admitted by both o•
r
: rties in this house and by every per-
son in this country Pwlho has given any attention to the
subject,
there would remain as subject matter for reso-
lutions nothing
bet the details of the bill. Only conceive
what an
inconvenient precedent it would be if it were
oitablisbed that when the government or a private mem-
ber whined to introduce a bill, instead of the government
or the rrivate member taking the trouble so to frame the
bill that it would contain all the regulations which were
tbought expedient, the house should be called upon to
pass the future clauz es of the bill in the embryo state of
resolutions, leaving it to somebody else afterwards to
adapt those resolutions so that they would form clauses of
the bill, Why it would, is the first place, be a area

waste of time. The house woeld have to go twice ore
the same matter, the decision cf each case depending
upon the accidental presence of members at the time of
the di.cussion. Not only would it be a loss of time, but
it would not follow necessarily that the details affirmed
in the resolutions would afterwards, when they game to
be shaped into clauses in the bill, equally meet with the
approbation of the house. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I realp
think that, in deference to the ordinary course of prc.
ceeding and rules of the house, and with a view to th
convenience cf Parliament, as the house has before it
two bills containing all the details which those who pro.
posed them thought adapted to the case, we should pre.
teed to the discus-ion of the bills FO framed. If we went
into a committee of the whole house we should have t
discuss each clause in the form of a resolution, and it
appears to me that at the same time that we should be
establishing an inconvenient precedent, it would be ski mere waste of time to pass resolutions which somebody
woubi afterwards have to shape in such a way that they
could pass.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Sir,
let me say, in explanation, that the right hon. g, ntle.
man the member for Halifax certainly misunderstood the
expressions which I used, if he supposed that there was
any wish on my part to abdicate the functions of the
government either on this or on any other subject. But
I havirg been the organ of the government in intro.
ducing a bill re'ating to the government of India, alai
the notle lord (L-rd John Russell) having risen in hilt
place, and expressed his intention of proposing resole.
tions, I thought, and on reflection I cannot but feel that
I was right, that I should have been guilty of the we.
arrogance if I had not at once said what I did.
I think that had I taken any other course I should have
acted in a manner which would have been inconsietent
with the forms of the house, and indeed with the con-
duct of a gentleman. At present I can only say that
I undertae the responsibility which is thrown on the
government, I will place the resolutions on the table
of the house early enough to give the house ample tims
to cmsider them before it proceeds to the discussion,
and I propose that this day fortnight those resolutiona
should be moved from this table.
Mr. BOUVERIE said he really thought the hence
and the country should unthretand what had become of

the government bill. (Opposition cheers.) Was there to
be a third India B 11, and was it to be different from cr
similar to the second bill Y The right hon. gentleman
seemed very anxious to get rid of the Government bill
by a side wind. having jumped with the greatest glee at
the proposition of the noble lord that they should pro-
ceed by resolution. He could not recollect an instance
inlwhich any Government, whether weak or strong, had
proposed a bill having a particular object, and when thkt
bll stood in the orders for discussion bad laid on the
table resolutions involving the same points. This ap-
peared to him a complete abdication of the functions of
the Government ; and whatever might be the opinion of
that boos; the public at large would be utterly at a IDss
to understand the course pursued by the right hon.
gentleman.

Sir B. HALL said he wished, bef re the house pro-
ceeded with the discussion, to put a question to the rigl t
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It
would be in the recollection of the house that the right
hon. gentleman, on being asked by the noble lord the
member for the city of London, before the recess, when
he proposed to take the second reading of the India Bill,
first mentioned Friday, the 16th, whereupon the noble
lord proposed that it should be taken on Monday, the
19•,,h, and the right hoe. gentleman acquiesced. It, was
not f r him (Sir B. Hall) to inquire into the reasons
which induced the Government to postpone the conside-
ration of their measure; but as the right hon. gentlemen
had put the question on an entirely different footing, and
stated that he intended to propose re•olutions upon which
a measure wool i be founded for the future government
of India, be thought he had a fair right to ask, and the
house bad a right to know, whether the right hon. gen-
tleman intended to abandon the bill, or meant to proceed
to the second reading, or whether he intended to found
on the resolutions some new measure for the government
of India ! (Hear.)
Mr. HORSAIAN said it was evident that the house
was in a great difficulty, and he feared this was only the
beginning of difficulties, which would accumulate as
they proceeded with the consideration of the cut jest.
(Hear.) When they first heard of the disturbances in
India there were two feelings which succeeded each other
in the minds of the people of this country. The first
feeling was that the double government of India must be
got rid of ; the second wan that it would not be easy to
find a substitute for it. Now, two efforts had been
made to provide a substitute ; they had before them
two bills emanating from the highest sources, and the
only oistinct impression made upon his mind was an
impression of the inherent difficulty of the question,
and how much any measure must be depot dent upon
the forbearance and the aid of Parliament and the
country f a successful issue. They had been told by
his right hon. friend the member for Coventry (Mr.
Eilice) that ttie course rec.iminended by the noble lord
the member for London was unprecedented. He was
afraid that the whole course adopted in reference to this
object was unprecenented. They called themselves a prac•
tical people, and yet they had in this instance departed
from the invariable course of proceeding in such cease
as the present. The rule hitherto observed was, first to
suppress the disturbances, next to inquire into the causes
of, here, and then, having a•certained the causes, to pro-
ceed by legislation and ether means to supply a remedy.
In the present case, instead of adopting this businese-
like recommended alike by unvarying prect dent
and by common sense, they had pros. eded to frame a
new government for an empire in whice their rule had
yet to be re-established, and to take legislative precau-
tions against the recurrence f evils which they did not
yet even pretend to understand. (hear.) There was
another respect in which the course pursued was without
precedent. This great charge was proposed without any
preliminary inquiry, a course for which, he ventured to
I tay,f the oldest member of that house could not cite a pre.
, cedeet. As regarded India, it was the maximum of
change with the minimum of notice or inquiry. Four
years ago there was a very lung inquiry with regard to
the reneeal of the East India Company's charter, and
what was the result ? Why, it was virtually the re rongest
condemnation of tie coins, now pursued. The witnesses
consisted of the highest authorities in reference to India,
every one of whom declared that the existing govern-
ment of India was the best that could be devised. The
Government of the day also coincided in that opinion,
and the concurrence of the house wee recorded in the
statute book of the year. Thai, committee might have
bees mistaken ; its report might have been mere waste
paper, hut merely for the sake of the house and for its
consistency, it wool i have [been well to have adopted
some preliminary is suit.), before proceeding. But as the
house had deter mineu that this was a proper time for
legislating, he should not have ventured to make these
observations but for the position in which this matter.
was now placed. There were two Lids before them, and.
they might vote for the second reading of bath, for tbey
were both founded on the same principle. Or they might
as a party vote, carry one against the other. Or they-
might permit the present government of India to go on
-eithout, interruption. He agreed with his noble friend
j (Lord Palmerston) that there were inconveniences in post-
' poning a measure for one year. That inconvenience wan,
however, but the inconvenience of a year, whilst the in-
convenience arising from. a faulty or mistaken measure
was an inconvenience which would last through all time.
Fseling, therefore, that neither bill was satisfactory and
having tufore him a prospect a-, which he looked with
great dread— viz., that this measure should be discussed
as a party question—he thought that the proposition of
his noble friend the member for the city of London that
resolutions should be submitted to the house as to whe-
ther there should be a council, and as to what should be
its constitution,
was one which ought to receive the sup-
port of the house. He thought, indeed, that in a case of
so much difficulty and of so great an importance, that
the house was under an obligation to his noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) for the suggestion which he had made.
Sir B. HALL hoped that the right hon. gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would answer hie
question—was it his intention to procured with or to
abandon his bill neer. this subject
The CHANCELLOR ef the EXCHEQUER—I have
already trespassed on the attention of the house but with
its perrniesion—(h,ar, bear)—l will reply to the question
of the hon. baronet. It is my intention at present, as I
think it is the general wish of the house that I should
do so, to propose these resolutions. (Hear.) I shall pro-
pose them on this day f'rtnight. It certainly never en-
tered into my imagination to give up the Lill I had the
honour of introducing. I have a lively conviction that
the result of discussing these resolutions will be to effecth
such a change in the general view f the house that the
bill which I had the honour of introducing,
will remain upon the paper until we have deciadnedd which
resolutions, will in its general scope be adopted byb the
house, and, modified no doubt in some
edep:ce
united experience of the house which th
ultimately
those resolutions will bring to light,
willhear.) ussiyonthoef
be-
come the law of this country.
The sus jest then dropped,
com-
mittee was agreed to.
AND NAVY ESTIMATES.
SUPPLY- -THE ARMY
Ato committee of supply,
and(Eithee2r' report of the
On the motion for c
pportnnity of calling 11i:L°r the army and navy, which
heavier than any which had yet been
were several millions
was
atten-
tion
M rt.eWt hreLpl; present S
estimatest-o ooiku
It
the duty of the House of
submitted to that
.hotou
this matter, and to devise a remedy.
Commons to lookein_
shoes the
referring the estimates to a se-
bTo show the extravagant amount to which
/II ittee.ad
I, grown, he would call the attention of
the estirnatoesshe doings of former governments in this par-
ties houseit
would go back to the time when the hoes, was
ticular. 1 e
ITechtiscocoeuuld only
when it was said to bo a parliament of
e
buonrrforonnougtinaongers, and show that even then such estimates
as these bad not been brought forward. He wished it to be
understood that he did not cast the blame upon the present
Government. It was upon its predecessors that the eharge
chiefly rested. At the same time the present Adminietta-
tion ought not to shelter itself too much upon the plea of
what it found done by those who preceded it In office, but
should endeavour to avoid the course which they hat
marked out. In referring to femur times he would com-
mence with the Govoinment of the Duke of Wellington
before the reform of Parliament. He found that the army
and navy estimates of that day wore lase than the present
by the sum of 6,350,0001. In the last year of the existence
of the unreformed house, under the Government of Earl
Grey, the estimates were 7,000,C001, less than the present.
In ISe4, under the Government of Lord Melbourne, the
difference was 8,200,00 J/. in favour of that Government.
Under the Government of Sir B. Peel and the Duke of
Wellington, the army and navy estimates wore 8,630,0001.
less than those of the present day. tinder the Government
of Lord J. Russell, in 1832, they were 5,5"..0,C007. less, and
under that of the Earl of Aberdeen, the difference was
i,360,0001. He should like to have an explanation from
some member of the late Administration as to the_ n_eooecis;
city for this difference. Au idea prevailed out of doors
that it was in some degree to be traced
to
ream Not
bles in India. That was, however,
obliged to ex-
pend every out-
lay,-a" occurred last year, through
apeiplitenonnythhaatdactchoteintG---oTthee
and in fact a saving had
.ri,ma.a.aitie _
Government
ybeheanu:tb.rn
d India.
thonurriber of soldiers who were be; b t