The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-26 00:00:00

VEIDA Y El V E Nil NG, MAkRTIII 26, 1858

pick out the worst. The hon. member said that he (Mr.
Blackburn) had brought forward this because there was
no Secretary for Scotland. But, in truth, he did not
desire any such officer for the country from which he
came. His motivo in placing his motion on the paper
was to do all that in him lay to render Ireland an integral
portion of the British empire. He trusted to see one
Ho me office with departments for each country. He be-
lieved that this would go far to put an end to any anta-
gonistic feelings between different parts of the kingdom.
He had no desire that an Irishman should forget that he
was a native of Ireland, or that a Scotchman should for-
get that he came from Scotland. He desire I, however,
that all should remember they were Britons. (Hear.)
Mr. ESMOND thought that no question had yet come
before the house for the abolition of the Lord-Lieutenancy
which had not been accompanied by sense scheme to re-
place the office. He believed this question really necessi-
tated the further question of the appointment of a fifth
Secretary of Sato. He would remind the house that
many high authorities had given their opinions on this.
Sir R. Peel had given it as his opinion that the absence
of a Secretary of State for Ireland in this country—where
he must be to attend Parliament—would be most inju-
dicious. So also Mr. Goulburn had given hie opinion to
the same effect. Much had been said about the intrigues
at the Castle at Dublin. But let the house hear what Sir

R. Peel said with regard to that. That great states-
man gave it as his opinion that in the absence of Cue
Secretary of State in ttie country, the greatest licence
would be afforded to iutrigue. Mr. Canning had Ex-
pressed the same opinion :almost in the same words. The
late Chancellor of the Exchequer ha I intimated that at
the time of the union no engagement was entered into
to keep up the L. rd-Lieutenancy. But if the honour
of public men was to go for anything, that statement
did not represent the actual facte. Mr. Pitt, in sup-
porting the measure, held out to the people of Ireland
that, though the Parliament would be done away with,
there would still be the head of the executive in Ire-
land. He could also bring to the support of hie views
❑o less an authority tha❑ the late Mr. Hume. That
hon. member, in a discussion on this question, said that
if the income derived frum Ireland was greater than its
expenses, he should not object to its retaining the splen-
dour of a Lord-Lieutenancy. Now since Mr. Hume spoke
the revenue drawn from Ireland had been nearly doubled,
and were that gentleman now alive he should claim
le'ne as a supporter of the ♦'siws which he entertained.
The hon. member who brought forward this matter had
not shown sufficient regard either for the Irish repre-
sentatives or the Irish people. A. most respectable and
influential meeting had taken place in Dublin, at which
it was unanimously resolved that the office of Lord•
Lieutenant ought to be retained. The question was ore
assuredly national, and he trusted the house would give
due weight to the feeling of the people of Ireland upon
it. (Hear.) So long as the majority of his countrymen
I wished the office retained, he shoull strenuously oppse

its abol tion.
Mr. CONOLLY said he believed that while the
office of Lord-Lieutenant was administered with impar-
tiality it would always have the support of the whole
Irish people.
Mr. DODSON deprecated the retention of the
viceroyalty as being a variety of that double system of
government which was now so generally condemned.
E eery year diminished the number of excuses by which
its continuance could be defended. In his opinion, the
Horne Secretary, with the addition of another Under-
Secret cry, could easily manage all the Irish business.
Mr. GROGAN was rejoiced in believing that few
members would go into the lobby with the hon. and
learned member for Sheffield, but at the same time he
must complain of the tone in which the question had
been argued on both sides of the house. It was most
unfair to Ireland to keep this question constantly before
the public, and he hoped it would now be finally settled.
Mr. BAXTER appealed to the financial reformers in
the house to give effect to the principles they advocated
by voting for the motion of the hon. and learned gentle-
man, and abolishing a source of expenditure which was
net only unnecessary but mischievous. (Hear, hear.) He
trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would sig-
nalise his return to office by a revision of the estimates,
and that he would le,gin by striking out of them the
charge; connected wi h the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland.
Mr. DOBBS, at an Irish member, was prepared to
support thi protosition for abolishing the office of Lord-
Lieutenant, on the ground that a government by deputy
was always inferior to a government directly adminis-
tered. It was, however, hopele.se to attempt to do any
thing in the matter until the people of Ireland declared
themselves in favour of abolishing the office. Wnen
that time came—which he would venture to prophecy
would nut oe long —whatever Government was m power
it would be compelled to make the change. The north
of Ireland was already io favour of it, and even in Dub-
lin, during the la-t 15 years, public opinion had under-
gone a considerable c,ange on the euject.
Mr. C FORTESCUE should vote for the previous
question, but did not put the same construction upon it
that the hon. and learned member who moved the
amendment had done. He was not a!-de to go the length
of the resoluion of the hon. and learned member for
Sheffield. He had but lades love fur the institution in
question, but he could not forget that it was a vital part
of the government of Ireland, and was interwoven with
the habits, the feelings, and the traditions of the coun-
try. Law and order bad not been so long established or
so deeply implanted in the minds of the people of Ire-
land, as to render it safe to deal with a great institution
like this without great caution. When the people of
Ireland saw a proposal of this kind brought forward by a
private member not connected with that country, and
one who was r gaoled as rather of a destructive cis rirac-
ter—(a laugh)—they were not likely to have any great
confidence in it. What a 'M.lnisiter ot the Crown destroys 1,
be was bound to build up—but f .r the constructive part
of the hon. and learned member's scheme they had no
security. He had, about six weeks ago, conversed with
friends of his of the Conservative party when there was
no expectation of their coming into office, and they a I
denounced the Lord-Lieutenancy as a sham, but no,v the
feeling of the great party oppo its was in f ivour of the
Lord-Lieutenancy. If instead of the Lord-Lieutenant
there was a Cabinet Mini-ter with a seat in Parliament,
who could ocoviionally be in Ireland, it might be a better
arrangement—but the present system greatly diminished
the respoasibility of tie government ot Ireland. He felt,
however, great difficulty in meddling wi.h this great in-
stitution, although he wished that some better machinery
for the government of Ir-land could be adopted.
Mr. VANCE regretted that the hon. and learned gen-
tleman (\lr. Roebuck) had not left this rnster in the
totifetrpyeinogpiteeogfelt
raelhaonsci
hands of the Governmentfcihwn sthhtie:aand
en. and learned gentle-
dmtielasir
envewodtoetuo ir
aldgraenitenoatst, sarihaanye woffiwihcshed to abolish, if he knew the
country better than he did. The hon. and le trued gentle-
man had raised a subject of contention which would cause
considerable discord if persisted in. He regretted that the
previous qutstion had been moved, as he should have
preferred that this question should be settled by a vote.
He believed it would be Impossible to over-rate the dis-
content, and he would almost say the disloyalty, in Ire-
land which such a change would cause.
Mr. W. EVANS, in declaring his intention to vote
for the motion, said that the noble lord, the Secretary
for Ireland, had stated that important duties were pst-
formed by the Lord Lieutenant which were peculiar to
Ireland, butd be l e (
thought that it could not be
taken for r g
Secretary of State for Ire
h
d with Ireland, and if sa, he
d perform these r duties. Indeed that func-
tionary ought always to be selected for his being conver-
sant with toe affairs of Ireland. The objection which
formerly applied to governing Ireland in this country
was done away with by the almost annihilation of time
and space by modern science. It was desirable that the
Secretary for Ireland seould have a seat in that house
in order to answer qn3itimai relating to Irish affsers
and to have Iri-b business under his care ; bet now it
was cliffioult to field out who was responsible for what was
going on in Ireland. Another ground on which he ob-
jected to the Lord-Lieutenancy was one with which he
spoke wiih great deference to Irish members, and with-
out wishing to say anrhing offensive to them. He
thought that the Lord-Lieutenancy was an anti-national
institution and approaching to a badge of servitude.
Then he objected to the continuance of this place on the
ground o economy. Another reason which would induce
him o vote
name,; fir einr:otilei motion that we should be not
only in n wag,
aailited kingdom. For the
bu tht
in 3a
to
I reasons he bad eta ed he should think it his duty to rea
cord his vote in f evonr of the motion.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN did not c incur with the member for
Louth, that it was improper for private members to in-
troduce a mew:are of this description—that they were
not prepared to have continuous agitation in Ireland on
this question. He rose to identify tritnseif with what an
hon. member opposite had called a time-honoured edifice.
(Hear, hea-.) life did not think that the administration
of Ireland should be left in the bands of a matt:ay com
'Dander, which he considered weuld be the result of
abolishing the office of Lerd-Lieutenant of Ireland.
Mr. BENTINCK regretted ihot the division had not
taken pace 1 mg ago.`lie had listened to the speeches s.
the hon. member for Seeffield, of the hon. member for
Roscommon, and of the Secretary for Leland, and the
then considered the question disposed of. He regretted
that a night should have been wasted on such a discus-
sion.

Mr. BAGWELL said he should not quote from for-
mer dehat,s. The ral question wa-e how they ,houlet
best govern Ireland. There was an essential difference
between Ireland and England. Ireland was a country
of a d flerent race, and, he was sorry to say, of a diffe-
rent religion. Tee Celtic and the Angle-Six,m races
had net mingled. The Angle-Salon hat no dou}A be-
come Celtic in his fetlinge, but the races remained apart,
and he was afraid there was little prospect of their
speedy aeaalgaena ion. In
point of fact Ireland was go
verned by 11,000 or 12,000 policemen, and 71 stipen-
diary magistrates. The institutions of the two countries
were eetirely different, and, no doubt, in the unhappy
state of Ireland under which the present system had
grown up, Tawas wise and politic that it should be so.
At the same time, he thought that the cl,lange now prc-
pwed would be better for Ireland, and bettee for Ecg-
lecd also. (Cheers.)
Lerd J. RUSSELL acquitted the hon. and learned
member of any !presumption in bringing f,rward this
question ; for if the hon. gentleman held any strung opi-
nion with regard to the Lord-Lieutsnaney, er any other
subject, Le had ony performed his duty in bringing it
befere the house ; and the turn the debate bad taken
must have convinced every one, not only that the euh-
jec' was Well worth conslderation, but that no long time
was likely to elapse before the views of the hon. gen-
tleman would meet with a general concurrence. (dear,
hear.) When honourable gentleman laid down the doc-
trine that there must be a separate administration in
Ireland, they lost sight of the fact that circumstanced
were always changing, and that with the change of cir-
ournetancee a change of policy might be very properly
adopted. fie (the noble lord) did not deny that at the
time of the Union there were reasons which might ren-
der it nee esary to keep up the executive in Ireland ;
but it appeared to him that the circumstances of the

country had so much altered that it had become a matter
at all events worth con•ideration, whether it might not
be advantageous even for Ireand itself that the separate
executive should no longer exist. (Hear, hear.) In a
debate on this subject, many years ago, Sir R. Peel gave
as a reason, and as a conclusive reason, against the abo-
lition of the Lord-Lieutonancy, that it was ❑ecessary to

have a Lord-Lieutenant, in order to consider, in capital
cases, any applications which might be made for mercy ;
but tho increaAed facilities of communication which had

been established bad removed any (:ifficulty there would
be in applying in such cases to the Home Secretary.
(Hear, hear.) No doubt it would be better to have only
one administration for the whole kingdom, and that was
the opinion of one of the wisest statesmen who had ever
arisen in this country. When the Union of Scotland

took place, the Scotch Privy Council wai a time-
honoured body, and possessed of every advantage which
had been attributed to the /cord-lieutenancy ; but Lord

Somers said that the Union would never be ce,np'ete
unless there was one admini,tration for the whole coon-

try, and he therefore insisted upon its abolition, (Ilear,
hear.) There was no doubt great difficulty in sayrig
what should be put in the place of the Lord-Liu-
__.

tenancy. Whenle (L)rd J. Raiseli), seven or eight
years ago, introduced a measure the second reading of
which was carried by a large majority, he proposed that
there should be a Secretary of State for Ireland. Many
persons felt a stro g objection to that proposition, on
the ground that it would ke,,, a separa,e Iri.l adminis-
tration. He (he noble lord) thought there was great
force in the objection wbi'h had been made by his right
hon. friend the late Lord Chancellor ; but that certainly
was not the question that night ; and there were ways

in which the difficulty might be surmounted. In the
Home-office there were many funcioni which (11,1 not
properly belong to it, aLd which might be separated
from it. If chat were done there might ba only one

Secretary of State for England, S;otland, and Ire-
land ; and that would be far better than having two

Secretaries of State. If that suggestmn were adopted,
it might be neces-ary to create a separate adminis-
tration, or the duties of the Board of Trade, the

13:ari of He3.lth, and other departments might be
increased. (Hear.) With regard to the motion b.-fore the

house, if he had found that the Goverutuent were alto-
gether opposed to it—if the Chief S.-ieretary for Ireland
had said that the office must be perpetually maintained,

and that the Government of Ireland could not be carried

on without it—he should at any risk have sopported the

motion of the hon. member f aSheffield. But the Chief

Secretary said nothing of tho kind. It was true that he
said that them was great advantage in the personal COM-
inunioatiou which the peo3le of Ireianci had with the
Lord-Lieutenant; but the advantage wa, calm erba!anced

by the want of personal eaminunie‘,-A-ti o2i here. Gentlemen

connected with Ireland who had any application to make
to the Government were certain of a favourable recep-
tion from the Lord-Lieutenant ; and hence a Lord-Lieu-
tenant was always more popular than a Secretary,
but the Lord-Lieutenant had el course to report the case
to her Majesty's Government, and he could not do that
so well in writing as the deputation had done, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Home S-cretary
might take quite a difireet view, and totwly refuse the
applicatiou. He (Lord J. Russell) believed that when
gen; lernen had what was ready a public question to bring
before the Administration, they would have a better
chance of success if they had come to London than If, as
at present, they were only able to state the case to the
Lord-Lieutenant. (Cheers.) The matter was a difficult
one ; but was entirely one for the Ex-votive Govern-
ment, and he should therefore be disposed far the present
to leave it in their hands, and support the previous ques-
tion. The noble lord the Ceief Secretary seemed to think
that a time might come when the members for Ireland
would be disposed to look upon the proposed change
with favour. Under these circumstances, ho (Lord J.
Russell) thought it would be a great disadvantage if they
came to a vote high was considered by the representa-
tives of Ireland as intended in any way to hurt their
feelings or to go against their wishes. (Hear.) For his
part, he would rather see the question fairly and calmly
discussed—he would rather see it put upon the represen-
tatives of Irelen I Cu reconsider it. It that were done
and if the government would also consider the best
mode of meeting the ditlicul y, they might in a short
time arrive at a solution which would be much more
satisfactory to all partied than if a vote of that house
were carried against the wishes of the present and the
views of the late government.
Mr. WALPOLE warned the house against being
carried away with the notion that the present govern-
ment felt they could sea their way at this moment to
make the change proposed. He quite agreed with every
word which had feelen from his noble friend, and that
the course the government aught to take was not to ne-
gative the motion, bus simply to say that they ought not
at this time to agree to the substitute indicated by this
eon. and learned member. (Hear, hear.) Before they
agreed to the proposition before the house it ought to be
shown teat the advantages of the proposed substitute
would counterbalance the advents es of the present
system ; whereas he bel seed that in several respects a
Lord .Lieut(nancy wa- infiettely better than the specific
pr-posal of the hon. gentleman. (Ceeers.) In the first
place, it was a great advantage that so much local know-
ledge should be brought to bear upon the executive in
ft-eland. The beneficial results arising from having a
local authority resident in Ire and had been strongly il-
ius:rated by his noble th iend.. Tee Lord-Lieutenant had
to be in uoannunication with GOO petty sessions, with
;1 stipendiary magistrate,, and with a vast number of
aeststant barristers. He had to superintend, in fact, the
whole critnival jurisprudence of tut, country. He had
also to exercise a control over the army and the police,
and he was the tempor..l head in alt eccte.dastical (nat-
ters. In a word, all the funeciens of the Queen herself
were vested in the Lord-Lieuteuant when the Sove-
reign was not in the country. N .w, if a Secretary
of State were appointed in Ir -land he must be absent from
his poet during the whole of the Perliernentary session,
or else his duties must be perfortne 1 by some sub-
ordinate officer, an arrangement which could not be re-
garded as a beneficial one. He (Mr. Walpole) hail
voted in the majority on the noble lord's (Lerd John
Russell's) measure some years ago. He had done so
because he thought that there would have been
sotne substitute found for the Lord-Lieutenancy, and
because he thought that whether the change took place
would depend upon the wishes of tee people of Ireland.
(Cheers ) Tne more the discussion proceeded in 1850 the
more strongly it came out that there would t,e a great
inconvenience in apeoisting a Secretary of State for Ire-
land. That was a difficulty which he believed the neble
lord himself felt. (Hear.) Because, if they appointed a
Secretary, they would be ceding the principle which had
been established when the exchequer of Ireland was con-
solidated with the exchequer of E gland. Great advan-
tage had accrued from havicg only one exchequer ; and
it was equally desirable that the functions of the execu-
tive should also he consolidated. (Hear.) With two
Secretaries of State there might be a conflic't of opinion,
and if they did not agree there would. be a weakening in-
stead of strengthening of their functions. Thy might
have two legi-letions at the same time—ene applicable
so Ireland and the other to England—when their object
should be to assimilate the two as far as possible. If they
had a Secretary of State fir Ireland, he must reside here,
and residing here it would be difficult to provide at the
moment for cases of emergency. (Haar.) At presatit
there was one pervading mind running through the admi-
nistration of affairs, and he did not think they ought to
part with this advantage till they were sure, or at least
had something like a probability of being able to obtain
superior or equivalent advantages wi'llout losing those
he had pointed out. These were the red ohs why Ito
thought that this government, or any government, could
not, say that at this moment, or at any specific time, un-
til these difficulties were thoroughly got over, they could
abolish an office which ire many respects answered ad-
mirably. (Hear, hear ) The question was, whether it
was better to have a local power in Dublin or a central
power in Lend- n ? (Hear.) Tot stuestiou led to the
further consideratieti, whether they could provide a sub-
stitute which would enable thorn to govern Irelsed wiseiy
and temperately, and by means of that fecal information
which the Government now possessed, which would
enable them to exercise the powers of government
promptly and vigorously, and to secure thereby a
good administration of affairs and full attention to
the wants of the pantie of Ireland, and at the same time
get rid of any difficulty which might arise from conflict-
ing or concurrent auth rity. (Haar.)
Lord PALMER -iTON begged to state in a few words
the grounds on which h, slieuld vote for the motion of
the previous question. Any one who attentively gave
his mind to consider the principles of administrative im-
provement must on the fiat blush hold, he thought, that
it would be advantageous to abolish the office of Lord-
Lieutenant, and to make some other arrangement for
conducting the affairs ef helmt. But if such person
looked a little deeper into local circeinetances and re-
flected on national feelir.gs, he might be led to think the
arrangetnent was more difficult than at first sight it ap-
peared to be. (freer.) Tee arrangement, so far as ad-
iniuietrative functions were concerned, would be very
simple and practicable. At one time he thoueht thet it
might, be advantageous if the office i f Ler aLieutenant
were abolished, and a second Secretary of State for the
Irish depaetment created, but second reflection taught
him that that would not necessarily be an advantageous
arrangement. He thought that if some of the duties now
connected with the Home-office were transferred to other
departments, the 'dome-office might well be able to trans-
act the whole bu,iness of Eiig and and Ireland with the
aid of an Under-Secretary of State, (Hear ) TherefOre,
as far as the organisation of adrninatrative functicns
were concerned he saw ne iasurmountable difficulty in
the arrangement proposed. And there were many things
belonging to the present time which diminished the
difficulties that in former years opposed such arrange-
ment. He remembered being in Dublin when sailing
packets were the only method et communiceti in, and
when for six days no English need had arrived, Bat now
the cornreuncation by electric telegraph accomplished to
six minutes what in former times was nut done in six
days Therefore the improve merit of modern times gave
facilities of corninunicetien both of persons and ief
it iva-
tu,n, weich tendered the change more easy than in
any former period of tints. However, there were
other circumstances which taut lead them to look
before them. (Hear ) The case of Scotland had been
urged as an analogous case, in order to show that it was
not neces-ary to have a separate administration for Ire-
land. But the house .hould recellect that the internal cir-
cumstaric lof Scaanil and Iteland were different.
(Rear.) The people ~f Scotland, wish the exception of
small differences of ecclesiastic it discipline, were united
in religious doctrine, but the case was, urf atueately,
different in Ireland, and those religious differences
amongst the people of Ireland must give rase to more
questions of controversy, and roust embitter those que6-
tiens in a greater degree than in Scotlasd. (Hear, hear.)
in
llav
a local autho-
rity e rte was
o settle t leterehof:e
s 4 advantageu,:s questions
swithout
London ; and there was great advantage, if these eines_
tions were to bo locally settled, that they should be
settled by high authority, such as that of the Lord-
, Lieutenant, who, generally speaking, did not 'Alen to