The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-16 00:00:00

TRI SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 16, IgmB,

what principle the claims should be met. It was a
question of great extent, delicacy, and difficulty,
INDIA.

In answer to Mr. Peers,
Mr. V. SMITH said no such report had been re-
ferred to, nor did he think it likely such would be made.
Vnder the circumstances of the state of India it was
necessary that Indian officers should be recalled who
were on furlough. Some had been appointed to office
by the Governor-General. They had been paid their
passage money, and the time they had been on fur-
lough would be counted as service.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Mr. CHILD asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether it was the intention of the
Government this session to introduce any bill to amend
the laws relating to weights and measures
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could not undertake to produce any measure on the sub-
ject this session.
BARRACK ACCOMMODATION.
Viscount INGESTRE asked the Under Secretary
for War when it was the intention of Government to
proceed with the designs for infantry and cavalry bar-
'acka selected by the official Committee on Barrack
Accommodation for the Army in the years 1855 and
1856, according to the pledge given to the successful
candidates
Sir J. RAMSDEN said no new barracks had been
commenced since the period referred to. When the
army estimates came before the house he should ask for
sum of money for the erection of a small cavalry
barracks at Nottinghatn, and if it were granted they
would be erected under the direction of the gentleman
who gained the first prize for designs for cavalry bar-
racks.
THE PRINCE ALBERT TROOP SHIP.
Mr. HENLEY asked the Vice-President of the Board
of Trade, whether any certificate (under the Merchant
Shipping Act, 1854), had been granted by the Board of
Trade for the Prince Albert, 2,500 tons, iron steamship,
that sailed with troops for India in the autumn of last
year I
Mr. LO WE said that the Prince Albert was taken up
by the East India Company for the conveyance of troops
to India, having been approved of by the surveyor to
the company. She was afterwards surveyed by the
surveyor to the Board of Trade, who reported that the
vessel did not comply with certain requirements under
the Merchant Shipping Act, but he did not report against
the vessel, believing her to be agood and trust worthy ship.
Under these considerations the Board of Trade refused
to grant a certificate, but ander the emergency of the
case they opposed no objections to the vessel's sailing,
and she sailed without the certificate.
Mr. HENLEY gave notice that he should put a
question to-morrow to the chairman of the Board o'
Directors relative to the contract entered into with
the owner of the vessel.
INDIA BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The adjourned debate was resumed by
Mr. ROEBUCK, who said that a more important
subject than the present had never occupied the atten-
tion of Parliament. The noble lord had stated on the
fired evening of the debate that the subjects of the Queen
in India, for whom that House was about to legislate,
amounted to 150,000,000, but he would have been more
accurate and nearer to the truth if he had said that the
number of persons in India under British sway amounted
to very nearly 200,000,000, and that being the case he
thought that he was justified in saying that a more im-
portant question than the present had never been the
subject of consideration of that house. With respect to
the mode in which that dominion had been acquired, it
was not his intention to enter into that question, but he
might, perhaps, be allowed to say that he would chal-
lenge opposition, that in acquiring that dominion Eng-
land had broken through almost every rule of morality.
She had, it was true, exhibited great valour and great
intelligence, but not great virtue, and when an hon.
gentleman on the last night of the debate spoke of the
acquisition of that rule as forming one of the brightest
pages in the annals of the history of England he could
only ask him if he had formed a picture to himself of
that which really constituted a bright page in the annals
of the history of a country. If the hon. gentleman meant
that British troops in India had shown great valour, that
their generals had shown great ability, and that English.
men had shown in all cases wonderful intelligence in
attaining their ends, then he thought that the right hon.
gentleman was right in calling the history of the con-
nexion of England and India a bright page in British
annals. But if he meant to say that England had
during that period displayed a regard for the great
principles of morality, that she had been in all cases
faithful to her engagements, that she had shown herself
incapable of receding from her word, then he thought
that the hon. gentleman was stating that which history
would not support. HeJor his own part could not consi-
der tat a bright page in the annals of England, although
in it she displayed great valour and intelligence, without
any accompaniment of virtue. He believed, however,
that British rule, obtained even as it had been, might be
turned to great benefit for the people of Lithe. If he
thought that British dominion in India was to be for the
future what it had been during the past, that the people
of India would not obtain any more advantage from the
improuA civilisation and the greater morality of the
people of England than they had hitherto done, then he
should consider that we should be justified in departing
from the shores of India, and leaving the Indians to
govern themselves. He believed, however, that as the
morality and intelligence of the people of England was
made to bear upon the English Government in India,
the natives of India would obtain a better system of
government than they had ever yet receiver!. It ap•
peared to him, from a careful perusal of their history
that the people of India were incapable of governing
themselves, and that by bringing to bear upon them
greater intelligence and better morality than they
themselves possessed great benefits wuuld be extended
to them. Such had not been the case hitherto, but he
believed that the first step towards establishing such a
state of things was the bi:l of the noble lord. (Hear.)
The present question to be determined was two fold—
fire, what was the government best fitted for India, and
secondly, whether the present was the right time to
establish it. That was a distinction which had been made
throughout the debate,and, although those gentlemen
who opposed the bill by pressing upon the latter ap-
peared to give up the former part of the argument, he
thought that upon as occasion like the present, when i
was most desirable to obtain the expression of the feel-
ings and of the intelligence of the people of England, it
became the members of that house to go through the
whole of the argument. (Hear.) Now, preparatory to
•the argument which he intended to adduce he wished to
make one or two observations upon the state of India at
present. India, it was to be remembered, was not a
colony, but a conquest. (Hear.) A colony he conceived
to be a body of men sent out from a mother country,
who, settling in some distant place, to )k with them
there the manners, the language, and the institutions of
the mother country. And, with regard to the British
colonies, the best mode of governing them was to allow
them to govern themselves. Nearly a quarter of a cen-
tury, he was sorry to say, had elapsed since he had first
denounced interference in the affairs of our colonise, and
he recollected that his suggestions were received with
strong indignation, and that very principle which at
present was the main principle upon which the colonies
of England were governed—namely to allow them to
govern themselves—was received with a howl of disap -
probation. India, however, as he bad said, was not a
colony, but a conquest, and she could not be treated on
similar principles. We had to deal in that country with
a people who were numerous and partially civilised, and
who were quite unable to govern themselves, and there-
fore it behoved them, if they retained dominion in India
to give to that people a government capable of maintain-
ing order, and one which would conduce to their welfare
and happiness. It was said by some that we bad from
incapacity in ourselves been compelled to allow the
colonies to govern themselves, and therefore that it was
clear that we were unfit to govern India. But the two
cases were not parallel, India being, as he had said
before, a conquest and not a colony ; and for his own
part be believed that a Government properly established
in India could govern India far better than any which
the people of India could establish for themselves. As
regarded the present state of things in India the history
of that state of things was very remarkable. When
George HI. came to the throne he was, as he thought,
out of his mind, and there was one feeling which pursued
him through life, and which he carried out with all the
cunning of insanity. Ilebelieved himself to be in danger
of Icrii)ng treated like certain of the Merovingian kings,
acnonventeexpected to be some day shaved and sent to a
And he entertained on that account eelings of
great alarm to the great body of the aristocracy of the
choeupoturyn,neadndwthiteh
great object of his life, and one which
undeviating pertinacity, was to break
down the power of
and the climax the
egreat families of the kingdom,
arrived
hen Mr. Fox himself, repre-
senting the aristocratic body, brought in his India Bill.
That Indian Bill was, regarded the then knowledge
if the people of England, a
who w'veisreemeasure. But the King
-that as insane
Persuaded the people—
as the Sovereign—(laughter)
danger in Mr. Fox's bill, because thereh was
e gorveaert
India was to be conferred on the British power
A cry was raised against that measure. It had been
own fortune since he had been an observer of epnehive
politics to hear a cry raised about as unwise as that to
he was refetr:ng, and also -to see that cry go"
down. Mr. For, however, did not live to sea the peopl
of England come to their senses as we had done. This
was the first symptom of returning sanity on their part
in ward to India. Mr. Pitt, taking advantage of the
..ar
cry is England, palmed upon the people through the
r
haiment a great " stoma. ' He told the directors that
be was exceedingly anxious to maintain their poser, and
a
be brought in a tell which received the p ot)
the then representatives of the East Companylndiralonof
They showed their wisdom by so doine, for they thereby
ereb"
lost their whole power over India! That was the conse-
quence of having " old Indians" to govern India. ai
Fitt cajoled them and instituted the Board of Control..
And what had been the result ? The Board of Control
from that time to this had been the irresponsible gover-
nors of India. " A board," said Jeremy Bentham, "is
a screen !" And so the Board of Control had proved.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer last Friday evening
explained to them with a deal of humour, which coming
from him told —(laught ,r) that the Courtof Directors,
as compared with the Board of Control
, real were L e y
authority
powerless. And it was quite clear that the
rested with the President of that Board,
taakned
frtohmat the
only use of the Court of Director
President of the Board oil Control all theTthreoudbilreeoeftohriss
-office, and to leave him all the power.
difficult
were used ae a screen for him whenever anyy
occurred. The burden was thrown upon the shoulders of
the Court of Directors, who in turn threw it back as a
shuttlecock to the Board of Control ; while the public, I

with eyes open and mouths agape, stood bewildered,
net knowing whom. to blame. That was a true picture
of the present Home Government for India. Should we
allow this state of things to continue It was neces-
sary to draw a distinction. They bad two things to do
in the arrangement of the Government for India. First,
they had to arrange the machinery which should bring
to bear upon the actual governors of India the opinion
of the Parliament and people of England, and their
responsibility to that opinion. This was what was called
the Home Government. They had also to constitute
the Government of India which should carry out their
plans when they had been duly matured in England. 1
For the first operation they did not require any know-
-I•3ge of the people of India: All that was requisite
was a general knowledge of, the principles of human
nature. They wanted to bring to bear on their official 4
in India a responsibility towards the people of England 3
and if they accomplished that they would do sufficient
for the good government of India as far as the Home
Government was concerned. By the double government,
however, under which it was hardly possible to know
who was answerable for any act performed by the
Home Government of India, they had done their utmost
to destroy all responsibility and all efficiency in that
Government. They were bound, then, to get rid of such
a state of things as soon as possible. The question next
arose, ought they to go back to the East India Com-
pany True, that Company were very much in the
habit of praising themselves, and when nobody else
would praise one it was as well to praise oneself. (A
laugh.) But, looking to the career of that body until
the Parliament of England interfered to restrain it, was

ever a worse or more rapacious Government than that

of the East India Company known in the history of the
world I Hon. gentlemen might refer on this matter to
the pages of a great defender of the Company —Lord
Macaulay, in whose " Life of Clive" they would find
that the whole object of their Government was money !
—money to the directorsin the shape of dividend,money
to their servants in the shape of large fortunes ; and that
they had crushed and trampled upon the unhappy people
of Hindostan as if they had been dirt beneath their
feet, except that they were dirt out of which
they could dig gold. Therefore, judging them from their
past history, the Court of Directors were not fit persons
to be trusted with the future government of India. But
the Directors represented the Court of Proprietors. On
what principle were they elected! The Court of Proprie-
tors consisted of persons who possessed Ea.t India stock
and in a certain proportion to the amount of stock which
they individually held was the number of their votes. He
might appeal to the House of Commons and ask, what
would they think of such a government for themselves I
They took a fraction olthe people of England and erected
a sort of aristocracy among them, giving a man a double
vote because he had a double number of shares ! If the
noble lord at the head of the Government, in his pro-
mised measure of Parliamentary Reform, were to propose
anything of that kind for the people of England, he
would soon be swept from place, and every one of his
supporters with him. Then, what was good for England
in this matter was good for India; and the very principle
which rendered the Court of Directors a totally unfit
body to govern England rendered them equally unfit to
governlndia. Then came the bill of the noble lord, which
contained among its provisions one of infinite import-
ance. It did away with the government of India as at
present constituted, putting in its place a Secretary of
State. The great mistake of the measure was the Council
of Eight, which it proposed. The very principle which
made the present government mischievous—viz,, divided
responsibility, told against this council. (Hear.) More.
over, the noble lord said that the council would be com-
posed of " Old Indians." That circumstance greatly
strengthened his objection to it, because in England at
the present moment were to be found men far more
capable of governing India than any!' old Indian" what-
ever. (No.) No I He wanted to know, then, to whom
the Company had intrusted the concoction of their own
petition. Was there not among them one of the moat
remarkable minds of the present day I (Hear, hear.)
Did he not lead his valuable aid in concocting that peti-
tion, which, marked though it was by many fallacies,
still exhibited great mental power I The author of that
document was, he believed, far more capable of govern.
ing 'lndia than any " Old Indian." Therefore, as far as
the concentration of responsibility upon a Secretary of
State went, he entirely agreed with the noble lord ; and
he entreated him to ,consider whether great mischief
might not arise from the divided responsibility that must
flow from the creation of this council. He knew the
councillors would not vote. Still they would share the
responsibility. He would be bound to say that if he lived
long enough to see a Secretary of State for India ap-
pointed he would hear him declare at the table of that
house that he had done his best, and that he was quite of
the same opinion as the council. The council would not
have seats in that house—it would not be under their
control. The Secretary of State might be, but it would
be too late ; he would exculpate himself by the opinion
of his council, and the house would be bound to believe
that being composed of "Old Indians" they knew some-
thing of India. That was a very dangerous principle—
dangerous both as regarded the government of India and
as regarded the people of England. And were they to be
frightened by the bugbear of patronage I Re was
ashamed to think such an argument could be used on
such a subject. Could it be supposed that the House of
Commons would be diverted from its duty—thatit would
be turned against the people of England by the appoint-
ment of a few cadets' Was it not marvellous that sane
men, grown men, men with beards, should seriously
retail the things which the house had heard last Friday!
The civil appointments were to be ;distributed by corn,
petitive examination; and the only patronage to be
retained would be the appointment of the cadets. Could
not the bill provide for these things 1 Why should they
not apply the same principle to the selection of military
cadets al to the selection of dvil servants ? If publican].
petition were good for the writers, who were the real go-
vernors of India, was it not good also for the cadets, who
were the soldiers and defenders of that country? Suppose
that for 500 cadetships there were 1,000 or 2,000 candi-
dates, would not the examiners selectthose whowere most
fit to go out to India ; and would not this most effec. ,
tunny do away with all patronage ? The same result I
would not be accomplished by resting the patronage in
these eight members of the Council ; on the contrary, it
would make them great men in their station, and it there
were any truth in the theory, that this patronage would
corrupt the House of Commons, these eight gentlemen
ought to govern England. He would never believe that
any such thing would occur ; but he was decidedly of
opinion that the best way to deal with this patronage
was to throw it open to publio competition. (Hear.)
Ti,a boA Home Government for India would be a Secre-
tary of State, who should ct,ou,..e his own advisers, and
in whom all responsibility should centre. Such a Secre-
tary of State would be selected by the Prime Minister,
who was practically chosen by that house, which was
elected by the people ; therefore, in the last resort the
Secretary of State for India would be appointed by the
people of this country. Now, if there was any virtue in
representative government, that was just the thing for
which it was useful ; not that the people should govern
themselves, but that they should choose their governors
—not that they should do the dutiei of the office of
Prime Minister, but that they should choose a man who
could do that duty, and should force him to do it. Such
a man would be responsible to that house, sod would in
the most effective manner bring to bear upon the Go-
vernment of India the feelings and wishes of the people
of England. (Hear.) The second ground upon which
the hon, gentleman had.opposed this bill was that it
might be a good measure, bat that this was not the
proper time for it.• That was the procrastinating argu-
ment. The boo. member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles)
said there had been a great mutiny in India which was
not yet put down, and therefore no change ought to be
made. Why, that was the very reason for the change.
The present state of things in India demanded an efficient
Government, and therefore if the propo ed scheme of
government would be better than the existing one, let
it be at once adopted. But it was said that the Com-
pany's Government in India had always favoured the
Hindoos ; that the Hindoos had faith in the Company,
and that the very parties who sought for a change of
government were desirous of proselytizing and Chris•
tianising India. (Hear.) He had been quite startled to
hear the statement that the people of Hindostan had
confidence in the Government of the Company, because
the Company had always opposed the extension of privi-
leges to the Hindoos, or the making them sharers in
their own government. Everything which had been
granted to the Hindoos had been granted in consequence
of Parliamentary power, and every change for the better
which had been made in their government had been the
result of Parliamentary interposition. The East India
Company strove to maintain their monopoly of trade, and
did their utmost to deprive the Hindoo and the half-caste
of any share in the government. He maintained that the
crisis at which affairs in India Lai arrived did not inter-
fere with their calmness or judgment. A calmer house
than that could net be found. There was no excitement;
there was no cry. The East India Company had pre-
sented a petition ; it had received the support of some
hon. members, and ha-1 been gravely debated. They
were perfectly calm and collected about the matter; why,
then, should they not decide upon it at once ? He begged
and entreated hon. members not to shrink from their
duty, not to be frightened by any cry of this sort, not to
allow the foot of England to be placed upon- the neck of
India to crush her down like a despot's heel, when they
had it in their power to spread peace, to spread good
government, to spread happiness from the Himalayas to
Cape Comorin. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DUFF said the old system, as modified by
repeated parliamEatary influence, and the public opinion
of this country, was not only most beneficial in action but
was becoming daily more and more benificent in its acts.
He, however, gave a qualified approval of the bill. He
had no wish to oppress India, but if they thought
such a measure as this was required by the necessity
of the time they ought to carry it out with an iron
hand,

Mr. WHITESIDE agreed that this was one of the
most important discussions which had ever taken place
in the British House of Commons. A hurricane of
destruction had swept over Hindostan, and it was
natural that the First Minister should have called upon
Parliament to arrest the hurricane and strengthen
the hands of the Indian Government. He had read
the noble lord's speech twice over, but although he
could understand the principle of the bill, he could not
understand the principle of the exposition. (A. laugh.)
He could have expected that the noble lord would
have attempted to show that the East India
Company had been indolent, and had thwarted the Go-
vernment in their endeavours to put down the mutiny
The noble lord, indeed, spoke kindly of a company
whom he intended to destroy—(a laugb)—but his speect,
had not rison to the heignhotbole or
f the occasion.
and theoccasioc. members ilecited
oaf
his Government in favour
former assertion of the
of making the government of
the East
How was it they were not at that time aware of the
India great, strong, and respected.

want of responsibility, of the difficulties of governing
India, and did they then succeed because they were
right, or because they were wrong ! He entered into a
laboured defence of the conduct of the Court of Direc-
tors, who had always shown great intelligence, industry,
and knowledge of their business, and of the people of
India. He cited the opinions of Mr. Mill, Lord Macau-
lay, and others, to show that the directors proved
themselves more competent to manage the affairs of
India than the Board of Control, and that the system of
double government was more free from party influences
and better fitted for the circumstances than any other.
Could the directors be charged with want of promptitude
or skill in their arrangements during the late crisis in
any one particular ? If they were to discard the com-
pany, what would they get 1 He read a multitude of
quotations from former debates to show that any substi-

tute would be truckling to the Government of the day,
its mere tool and dependents. The Duke of Wellington
had borne testimony to the purity and excellence of the
government of the company. He denied that the change
in our army administration during the Crimean war had
any analogy to the immense changes now proposed in
the government of a great empire, yet this was the only
argument which the noble lord could find for introducing
his proposition at such a time. Was a great government
to be overthrown by such an analogy I He charged upon
the home Government the initiative of all the measures

which had brought so many calamities on India, and it
was to shift the blame from those who deserved it
____

that the present bill was introduced. He replied at
length to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exehequer,
disproving his statements as to the comparatively small
importance of India to the empire, and as to the con-
duct of the men who first established our rule in that

country. The great argument in favour of the proposed
bill was, that it would bring to bear upon Indian mat-
ters the influence of public opinion through Parliamen.
tary discussion. The very thing that Mr. Mill
.depre•
cated. There was no public opinion in India, and he
denied that the people of England could have any
influence in operating upon the legislature so as to make
its action beneficial in the administration of the affairs
of India. (Hear.) The whole argument upon this
point rested upon a perfect fallacy. The same argument
bad been employed with respect to the management
of the affairs of our colonies. But what had been the
result ? There was once a Minister of England who was
a man of eloquence, who was surrounded by able Mini-
sters, by scholars and by wits—he was high in the con-
fidence of his Sovereign, was popular in the country,
and supported by immense majorities in both houses of
the legislature. He adopted a policy which he believed
to be in accordance with the opinions of the people of
England, and he drenched the American soil with blood,
and lost a magnificent country to his king. (Cheers.)
What did they see now ? A proud republic stand on
the ruins of an empire of which it was the conqueror.
What had become of the Minister who brought about
these results I He was classed among the men who,
made giddy by ambition, mistook popular applause for
the safe and guiding rules of policy in the administration
of the affairs of a great country. (Cheers.) But it was
said that the people of England, in fact, appointed the
Ministers of the• Crown. Did they I What, all of
them I They made, perhaps, the first Minister of the
Crown, but what of the rest ? He appealed to the hearts
and consciences of those who heard him whether the
arguments or statements of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer on this point were founded on fact ?
Were appointments even under the wholesome in-
fluence ,and operation of a free House of Commons in
a free country always those they could applaud? Were
they always made in deference to the moral feelings, the
enlightened opinion, the utility of the public service, the
honour oft he Crown, or the advantage of the State?
(Loud and repeated cheers.) Was the House of Com•
mons satisfied in dealing with this question as men of
business and common sense that it woul I be a safe thing
to pass this bill 1 This government had lasted a good
time, no doubt it had. The noble lord at the head of
the Government said that the change might be easily
made, that we might destroy the Government gen'ly
and at once without the least effort. He (Mr. White-
side) agreed with him there. It was a law of the
Almighty that the work of construction should be diffie
silt and slow, but that the work of destruction was
eaty. The skill of the architect and the labour of au age
might erect the edifice, the labourer with his rude pick-
axe could easily destroy its beauty. This building has
stood for a long time. Let them strengthen its founda-
tions, enlarge its basis, improve if they could the inhabi-
tants of the building ; but he implored the house, while
yet there was time, to stay their hand, and not upon the
arguments they had heard overthrow the useful and
venerable structure. (Loud and repeated cheering
followed the close of the address of the hon. and learned
member.)
Mr. LOWE said he thought that even those mem-
bers who were most enthusiastic in their cheers of the
ion. and learned member's speech mast allow that it
rather rested upon authority than argument ; and as he
(Mr. Lowe) did not come down from the library armed
with evidence he could not say how far the arguments
stated by the honourable and learned gentleman bore
upon the subject. Now, his (Mr. Lowe's) memory very
greatly deceived him if the passage from Mill, quoted by
the hon. and learned gentleman, was not addressed to
the government of the Company subsequent to 1785.
There was another authority which he (Mr. Lowe) would
venture to quote. It was one which he was sere the
hon. and learned gentleman would have no objection
to. When the East India Bill came before the house
before, Mr. Phinn moved—" That the Indian empire
might be governed by her Majesty, her heirs and
successors." That motion was negatived ; and amongst
the minority was the hon. and learned member for
Enniskillen. (Laughter.) The aE.,sunption which ran
through the hon. and learned gentleman's speech and
that of the hon. member for Huntingdons(Mr. T. Baring)
was evidently this—that the house was called upon to
take a very great and momentous step, that they were
about to throw out of gear our Indian policy just to see
if they could put it in gear again. The way that India
was managed was this : when the President of the
Board of Control was of opinion that any matter required 1
to be a matter of secrecy he was allowed to frame a
despatch which he sent to the Secret Committee of the
East India Company, who took a solemn oath not to
communicate that de.patch, or to remonstrate against
it, but were bound to send it out as they received it.
Now, he (Mr. Lowe) asked what amount of control or
initiative that committee could have under such circum-
stances t In cotesquence of this state of things, he
(Mr. Lowe) could not for his own part look upon the
Court of Directors as deserving oduc., biame or entitled
to great praise, not because their intentions were not
good, and their efforts often most earnest, but because
they had been for the last 70 years deprived of the power
of acting singly in any great matters. From the manner
therefore, in which business was transacted at the Eat
India House, the directors exercised in the government
of India no very important influence by their direct
agency ; but he must add, that the indirect consequences
resulting from the retention of the company were of a
most serious nature, and called for immediate interfer-
ence. The effect f the existence of the East India
Company was to produce a fearful amount of delay.
They boasted that they were an independent check upon
any Minister. Now, he had shown the house that they
were not a check upon his decisions, although
they might justly say they were a clog upon him.
The government of India was carried out in their
name they were obliged to receive all de-
spatches sent to this c )untry, and through their hands
had to pass all despatches transmitted hence. All who
bad grievances were forced to apply to them in order that
they might apply to the Beard of Control, which had
then to refer them back, so as to comply with the forms
of the East India House—forms which were peculiarly
unfitted for providing for such matters as naval and
military establishments, and the laying in of stores, and
in the carrying on of a serious war amounted to a
positive evil ; for although in questions of great malni-
tude the President of the Board of Control could issue
his order to the Governor-General, without its p as•ing
through the East India Company, he could not make
practical arrangements without their going through that
channel. Allusion had been made to the Indian rail-
ways, but so far from blaming the Company for not
having done snore in this respect, he (Mr. Lowe) was
surprised, taking into consideration the various proceed.
ings which had to be adopted, that they had ever suc-
ceeded in laying a sleeper. Let the house consider
the stages through which a matter of that description
had to pass. The East India Company, as they were
aware, guaranteed a dividend, and, therefore, was
obliged to control the expenditure. -Well, the Company
ordered a railway ; it had first to pass before the rail way
board in India, analthen the railway board in England ;
from them to the East India Company, to pass through
all the forms of the India House ; from thence to the
permanent secretary, and then to the Parliamentary
secretary ; from him back to the President of the Beard 1
of Control, who then sent it back to the East India
House ; and, lastly, the East India House sent out
orders for its construction. The same remarks would
apply to legal reform in India. Lord Macaulay's law
commission was sent out to India in 134'J, and nothing
had jet been done. It was true the petition of the
Company alleged that it was on the point of heir g carried
into effect when the mutiny broke out—that mutiny, by
the way, wan, he thought, very mach like the fire in
Caleb Balderstone's larder, for it served as a most oppor
tune excuse for every deficiency. He did not, however,
blame the Company for these things ; but he thought
that tbat house would be deeply blameable if, after these
matters had been brought so prominently under its
notice, it allowed a system to continue which was fraught
with so much danger. Another great evil attaching to
the East India Company was, that from the fact of the
government bsing carried on in its name, the public
supposed that it really was the Government, and the
consequence was the Minister of the Crown was screened
by that supposition ; and this very objection the peti-
tioners themselves amitted when they said that they
could nut "conceive a worse form of government for
India than a Minister, with a council which he is at
iberty to consult or not at his pleasure, or whose advice
he should be able to disregard without giving his reasons
in writing, and in a manner likely to produce conviction ;"
and when they admitted farther on that "any arrange-
ment of the council which will not be a check will be a
screen." At present there was no check at all, for the
Company might see the announcement of a war which
they were supposed to make for the first time in the morn-
ing
itniiicsinua;in:tajarp;efirhso.erldldendif.nact, if he (fir. Lowe) were desi ous of
used as the symbolof
calling a witness to testify to the insufficiency of the pre-
!amennatecraysypostif:emi the, hwcerhoiccwohui 2 lt;dhgebnoeio t call a better than the petition
y identical
was absolutely • •
conception of a republic or a
Iwnhdiicahw
the
ethe
Queen'sonly possession
as which
il ot
identical,
reef
eoragnr
ofamtr hdegeneodtv, andethisr
n m i
et
exception,
acaesnpodvf
ioa
nll
monarchyot thheer res
.
people of India had no
thing beyond the supra-

fore, as most unfortunate. India abounded in noble
families, some descended from the sun, others from
the moon. (Laughter.) Those persons possessed
great pride of birth and ancestry, and by way of
conciliating them and reconciling them with our govern-
ment, we deprived them of the honour and gratification
of feeling that they were the subjects of a sovereign
whose ancestors had worn the crown of these isles 500
years before the reign of the Great Mogul, making them
instead the vassals of a commercial joint-stock company.
He was told by a gentleman who had much exp :tierce
in India that the notion they had of the Government
under which they lived, was that India was a kind of
farm leased by the Crown to the Company, and that the
object of the latter was to squeeze as much as it could
out of it, and that gentleman's opinion coincided with
that of Mr. Halliday, that nothing would be more cal-
culated to promote the interests of India than to place
its government in the hands of the Crown. The matter,
however, did not stop there ; they knew something of
the past history of India, and need he point to the long
catalogue of differences and bickerines more or less vio-
lent between the servants of the company and the ser-
vants of the Crown. The mutiny which they were at
present engaged in putting down was not the only
mutiny which bad occurred there. Every one recollected
Sir R. Fletcher's conduct in the time of Clive, and that
he and his associates did not consider themselves guilty
of treason against the English Crown, but only against
a commercial company to whom they did not own alle-
giance ; and in the case of Gen. M'Dowell and Sir G.
Barlow, which nearly led to the loss of the Deccan,
tho troops were upon the point of declaring them-
selves independent of the government of Madras.
One case more which illustrated the inconvenience of
the present system was this ; the East India Corn-
Daisy might ba at war with a power with which the
Queen might bo at peace, incurring a heavy expense
without involving the na.e.e of the British Crown.
(Hear, hear.) at s to the question of time, whether legis
lation at the moment was convenient or proper, the
hon. and learned gentleman had quoted him (Mr. Lowe)
against himself. On that accouni he must, however
reluctantly, refer to the speech which he made in
1853 on the resolution similar to the resolution now
moved by the hon. member for Huntingdon, whittle was
brought forward by the noble lord the member for
King's Lynn (Lord Stanley). The only observation in
that speech on which the hon. gentleman could have
anchored his remark was one in which he said that if
the Government of India were to be continued in the
Company, whose operations in arms and policy there
had hitherto been successful, the governing body must
be maintained respected and respectable, and he re-
peated the observation now as entirely applicable to the
present circumstances. Of those who asked what would
happen if the bill passes, he must ask what would occur
if it did not pass ? The Company had been for a series
of years in a state of gradual deterioration. In 1818
they lost their India trade; in 1833 they lost the China
trade ; and when their commercial assets were gone they
were but the shadow of their former self; merely the
first mortgagees on the revenue of India ; or, rather
worse' compelled to look to a sinking fund of 2,000,0001.
which was now become 4,000,0001. or 5,000,000/. That
course was not a wise one for the purposes of Govern.
ment. So long as it was their intention to govern India
through the East India Company, so long ought they
to have done everything to make that company powerful
and respectable, being the trustees of the Queen for the
exercise of the imperial prerogatives. But after these
present debates had occurred, and the exposure of the
system which would yet take place, and which would be
read, as the hon. gentleman said; by the natives of India,
what respect for the Company could still be entertained
among the native princes or the native people. Let
Parliament spare the Company's existence now if they
would, India must feel that the sword of Damocles
was suspended over the head of that body, and that
the existence of that Company would be prolonged
for a few months, or at the most for a few years.
But when it was said that we should wait for a quiet
time, he must ask them to consider that although the
rebels who showed themselves in the field might be dis-
sipated and destroyed, they could not expect for years
to have returned to that condition of peace which was
referred to as the epochot the proposed change. But the
interference of Parliament was pin ured as an evil, and
the occasion of evils, He for one had no dread of the
bugbear. He had himself been a British colonist. He,
admitted to those who made a charge against the Impe-
rial Government that there had been mismanagement of
the colonies by the Colonial-office- But he made a die.
tinction. The Colonial-office erred from ignorance.
Some of these colonies were new and unknown; theyhad
sprung into existence of a sudden, and so rapid was their
continued growth, that a person who absented himself
for five years, returned to see a new world entirely un-
known to him. Under these circumstances the Colonial
Office were without the requisite information, and those
who came to London from any of them usually were
brought by personal objects, and gave one-sided infor-
mation. But with regard to India, the Minister could
not desire to take proceedings in any of its corners, but
he would find in this country a man who, without a
motive to bias his communications, could give the most
accurate and detailed information respecting it. Besides
he must assure the house that nothing was so much
desired in the colonies as the discussion of their case in
Parliament at the time of that mismanagement. They
need to say, half in bitter earnest, half in joke, that if
they could only get up an insurrection, however small,
they were certain of the attention of Parliament and
deliverance from the evils whioh they suffered. The
Indian Government was essentially a bureaucracy in
principle, in which there was something good and some-
thing bad, and something which had outlived its day.
But the characteristic of a bureaucracy was that it could
not reform itself. The insinuation contained in this
petition against the house that it would be rash, violent
an l prasump`nous in its interference with the
govornment of India was repelled by the course which
it bad pursued in the case of the British colonies—
(bear, hear)—for instead of retaining the power
which the house might have exorcised through
the Colonial-office, they had, through the influence of
such men as his lamented friend Sir William Moles-
worth, relinquished that power for ever by giving these
colonies constitutions and the advantages of self-govern.
ment. He, in conclusion, expressed his trust that the
commotions which now convulsed India would cease
with the change which this bill proposed, and that the
bill would be introduced into that country with an act
of grace and amnesty which might have had the happy
effect of calming down the sanguinary excitement that
stilt existed in that country.
Mr. LIDDELL was not prepared to hand over to the
Government of India to the nominees of the Crown. He
s!iinngly opposed the bill, both in principle and details.
Mr. SL ANEY supported the bill, admittinr, that the
government of the Company had done much for the
civilisation of India, Bat it bad yet left India by its
exations in is desolate and wretched condition, which
called f )r reform and change.
Mr. CRAUFURD thought that the merchants of
IL
was characterised as a company of
merchants. He found fault with the composition of the
nodnidao n
Company a
proposed council, and of the number of eight members of
which it was to be composed. They would not be aura-
ggrieved by the way in which the East
eient for the duties they would hove to perform. The
chief reason for opposing the bill was that it ought to
have been preceded by inquiry before a committee. As
yet the house was not in possession of sufficient infor-
mation.
Sir H. RAWLINSON would offer a few practical
observations, the results of thirty yearn' experience. He
should not discuss all the particulars alluded to by the
last speaker, but should confine himself to the
points actually before the bottle ; first, whether
any change was required ; and, secondly, whether,
if it was required, this was the proper time
to introduce it. The change, if any, must be
twofold : the abolition of the double government at home,
Queen's name in India. If
dthoer refer to the evidence before
sionaft in 1852 and 1853, they would
iscehvidence condemnatory of the double
attahhnn
eeddy
committeeti
wha eoi
tulad proclamation
mb aaswhioh
of
m
i
government, which made it marvellous that such a
system had existed so long, Its continuance
could only
be explained by an elusion made in another place by a
member of Lard Aberdeen's Government, to the effect
that the defects were admitted but it was thought an
abrupt change would be dangerous, and so a partial im-
provement was first iutroduced to break the fall of the
company. (A laugh.) It would be perhaps more
agreeable and more graphic to state a few facts than to
go into the general question ; he would cite two such
facts—the constitution of the secret committee, and the
relations of the Court of Directors to tho Board of Con-
trol. It was generally thought that the company was
responsible to the Government, and the petitions as-
sumed that ; but in fact for a large portion of the actual
government it was not the company but the Board of
Control who were responsible. In the case of the Per-
sian war, the Courtof D:rectors were not indeed opposed
to war, for they knew nothing about it till they read the
printed despatches in the Parliamentary blue-books.
He did not say whether this was right, but it was an
anomaly to say that ender such circumstances the com-
pany could be responsible. (Elear. hear.) Another
point was, the relaticnship which existed between the
Covet of Directors and the Board of Control. He should
describe the gestatios of a despatch from conception to
parturition. Tne idea of a despatch was first conceived
by one of those gentemen whose fine Roman hand was
recognised in the petition. (A laugh.) The hon. gen-
tleman then describid in detail the processes through
which a despatch had to pass up to the period when it
was sent out of the country. It was true that in
a case of emergency all this could be simplified,
but what was to be thought of a system which, when the
time of trial came, lad to be superseded ? It was a poor
defence to say that t could be simplified, because if the
same results were oltained by the simple process what
was the good of the complications ? He thought that
when the system win abolished the only feeling enter-
tained on the suhjec would be one of astonishment that
it had ever existed. Having considered the merits, or
rather demerits, of he Government at home, he came to
the question of the elects of the change in India. With
regard to the Europan community, with the excep`ion
of a few ex :Insives, tie old civil servants of the company,
no one would be otttrwise than pleased with the change.
Ur Halliday, the vise-president of the Bengal provinces,
had given his opicicin that much detriment resulted from
the government behr; carried on in the name of the com-
pany. Officers in tee army, and judges, were proud of
being in the service if the Queen, and those under the
company desired to le considered an in the service of the
Crown. The native had a strong feeling in favour of
government by the Crown. Several other gentlemen
had also given thei: opinion that if the name of the
Crown were bronchi forward it would increase the re
verence of the natives for the Government. The result
of his own experience in the military service of the com-
• pany was that both the military and the civilians had

pride in belonging to the Indian service, but in all hie
experience he never heard of any feeling of reverence for
the company, and all their aspirations were for honours
from the Crown, from whence, in fact, all their honours
were received. Provided the substantial rewards were

continued, which he supposed, was the intention, the an-
nouncement of their having become a royal army woull
be received with great and general satisfaction. As to
the effect on the natives, he thought that in ordinary
times the effect on the lower orders, including the

working claszes, and the lower portion of the army,
the change wou►d not produce any appreciable eff,ct.
The natives were more amenable to individual and

Local influences than to the force of any abstract

consideration. There was no such thing as national
feeling among the people of India, thodrgh there were
feelings of caste and raca ; but there was an extreme
docility and susceptibility to local influence. The
Scinde Horse, for instance, consisted of the most in-
flammable materials, high caste [Undoes and Alussul-
mans, who, however, were kept faithful without a
murmur, by the influence of the high character of
General Jacobs, their commander. (Hear, hear.) In
She same Punjeub a similar influence was exercised
by the confidence of the men in the justice, ability,
and honour of Sir John Lawrence. It was impossible
to over-estimate the power of individual influence
among them, which had much more weight than any
abstract principle of government. But as to the
educated classes who were constantly reading Eng-
lish papers and were given to abstract questions, the
case was different. They understood the difference
between the company and the Crown—the only error
was, that they were perhaps disposed to over-rate the

.
power of the Crown, and to under-ra'e that of the
company. The change would affect them according
as they were loyal or disloyal. If loyal, they would
like it as giving increased security ; if disloyal, they
would dislike it as affording less scope for agitation.
As to the second question, whether change, if desirable,
was so at the present time. The question of delay was
specious and attractive. It would be agreeable---let, to
those who objected to the bill on principle; 2dly, to
those who approved of the bill on principle, but really
thought this a bad time to introduce it; and, idly, to
those who had not yet made up their minds. But be
trusted the good sense of the house would triumph over
these considerations. (Hear.) The reasons urged by
the advocates of delay, in order to deter the Govern-
ment from legislating, were contradictory one to the
other. On one side it was stated that the mutinous
sepoys would consider the change of government a great
triumph, whilst others were of opinion it would depress
the natives if they knew they were to be handed over
to the Imperial Government. He considered neither of
the results would take place. If we had been driven out
of the country the sepoys would have had some cause
for congratulation, bet to find themselves in a worse
position in having a strong Government substituted for
a weak, would not, he thought, give them much cause
for congratulation. They would fled no change. The
same officers who now acted against them would also act
against them under the proposed change, with the ad •
vantage of greater harmony and power than now from
being members of the same service. (Hear, hear.) It
had been said that the mutiny should first be put down
and legislate after; but he considered it was not a mutiny,
because there was no such thing as a body of mutinous
soldiers banded together to oppose us. Serious opposi-
tion was offered still in Rohilcund, Central India, and
Oude, but it partook more of the characteristic of civil
war and revolt than mutiny, and means must be taken
to re-e tablish our authority in those quarters by force
of arms and what else was consistent with honour and
dignity. He did not mean to say that the name of the
Queen of England wou'd be sufficient for the restoration
of peace and order, but it would do much towards
effecting it. All the information he had received from
India described that country as being in the utmost
danger, for there was a great chasm between Europeans
and natives that could not be bridged over. All that
common ground by which the European used to approach
the native and draw out his sympathies, and gain his
affections, had been cut away. (Hear, bear.) Mutual
confidence was destroyed between them, and what
was worse, the natives knew that the Europeans
distrusted them. (Hear, hear.) He did not for
a moment consider that the Queen's name would be
every thing in that country, but he looked upon it as a
great auxliiary for the restoration of peace and order.
It would act as the basis of a new starting point, and
cause them to look forward instead of backward. (Hear.)
It was absolutely necessary that a number of changes
should take place in the administration of India, which
it was impossible to postpone for the sake of party, and
wnich it was absolutely essential to our rule in that
country, should be introduced at the present time, whe-
ther the bill was passed or not. The question of finance
was one of the utmost importance. The reorganisation
of the army was absolutely necessary. The tenure of the
land was a matter of almost equal moment, and above
all there was the system of administration which must
now be reformed, and they should take advantage of
these occasions to proclaim simultaneously or nearly so
the Queen's name, with the inauguration of the new
system. The effect of such a proceeding would be not
to alarm and depress the native mind, but to elevate and
encourage it, an opinion in which he was borne out by
Captain Meadows Taylor. The danger to result from
the proposed change need not be extended. Three
months had now elapsed since this subject was publicly
announced, and it would be three months longer before
the bill would be passed, and he maintained that if any
danger was to be apprehended from its passing in India,
they would be self-evident before it came into operation,
but such was not likely to be the case. If, however, they
delayed proceeding in the change, and the bill was to
hang for some time in committee, it would have a pre-
judic'al effect. The power of the company's officers
might be weakened by it in India, and disorganisation
follow. In supporting the introduction of the bill,
and deprecating delay, he must be understood as
not committing himself to an unqualified approval of
the bill. (Rear, hear.) There were many points he
wished to see al ered. Ho thought the pro-
posed number of councillors too limited for the adequate
discharge of the duties of the board, and he should like to
see the independence of the board better-established, but
whether it was to be obtained by the introduetion of
the legislative element or not, he would not then stop to
discuss.
Sir J. WALSH thought that the double government
brought together the local privileges of one set of men,
with the corrective decisions of another. This measure
was introduced in deference to the clamour raised out
of doors against the double government. It would make
the Indian administration, both here and in India, a
mere party matter.
Mr. A. MILLS objected to the double government,
and therefore supported the bill, but could not consent
to regard it as a bill of indictment agaii,,t the company.
He could not admit the reasons alleged for delay, as he
could not see when those delays were to cease.
Mr. WYLD could not agree that the renewal of the
East India Company's charter had been a condonation
of their past shortcomings. The great defect of the pre-
sent system was that it was a double government. Tee
Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Lowe), how-
ever, bad denied that there was any double government,
and had asserted that there was an autocracy on the part
of the Board of Control. If that were so, and the
monarch of Cannon-row were the real governor of
India, then the Court of Directors was but a screen to
cover his errors. His (Mr. Wyld'e) objection to the pre.
sent system was that it was unfitted for the requirements
of the age. The bill of Mr. Pitt constituting the double
igeovleerdnima ewnetrwe aeserile3apsasred atjavtelay
ltiimmie when
eoxuternpr,osasenssiboands
that statesman survived to witness the present enlarge-
ment of our empire, he would never have agreed to
so unsatisfactory a form of administration. It must
be remembered, too, that our interest in India was
continually increasing. The Russian war had been
undertaken in great part to check the aggressive de-
signs of that power in the East, and the recent Per-
ts
ii
oa lan . w aNr
ohms de bondveeme
ene
tc
inm mAesiac e
could
uwi
di t
the
kae spi
lma
ei lea r w
iitnbtoe n, t-
affecting imperial interests, and therefore he deemed
it to be most desirable that some legislation should take
plane upon this most important subject. (Divide.)
Mr. D. SEYMOUR argued that the government in
India had of late been improved and simplifi d, and it
behoved them to make corresponding simplifications in
our Indian g :vernment. The natives were eager for the
proposed change, and any alarm they might feel would
be set at rest by the discussions which had taken place
in that and in the other House of Parliament. He be-
lieved that the proposed change would encourage the
settlement of Europeans in India.
Yr ADAMS c uld not find one sufficient reason for
the destruction of a Government which had lasted so
long. The single objection he could lay hold of was this,
that Cannon-row was at some distance from Leadenhall-
street. If its pr :ceedings were roundabout, the same
might be said of many departments of the Government
itself. Had the management of the Company presented
the same deficiencies as were shown by the management
of the Government in the Crimea I Why, the language
of praise had been well nigh exhausted in the terms by
which the conduct of the Company daring the late crisis
had been spoken of. The sepoys, who received only such
impressions as those about them chose to convey, would
be open to the most false impressions when they found
that those against whom they had risen bad been put
duwn by the strong hand of the Government. The Com-
pany, after having gone so far in the repression of the
revolt, ought to have the honour of completing it. On,
every ground the present was an inopportune thee for
the proposed change.
Mr. ELLIOT said that the delays in the proceedings
of the double Government were not greater than those in
the Treasury and Colonial-office, He thought that no-
thing would be more injurious to India than constant
discussions in that house, where the majority of the mem-
bers knew nothing about the matter, and where intern-
p rate speeches would be made which would be trans-
ferred to the native papers in India.
Cel. SYKES moved the adjournment of the debate.
Lord PALMERSTON said if the motion was pressed
he must accede
ccedet
to ii.
to-morrow; ois
buttheddaeyb),atr, if adjourned, must
be continued
when he hoped that
a vote would be taken upon it.
Mr. GROGAN must oppose the debate being renewed
to-morrow (Tuesday), as he had the first motion on the
paper, which he bad been trying for two years to bring
forward, (Laughter.)
Col. SYKES persisted in moving the adjournment of
the debate.
The SPEAKER then put the question, and the house
divided. The numbers were—
Fer the adjournment 2BO
Against it
elejority
Lord PALMERSTON apre sled to the hon. gentle-
man oppo,ite (Mr. Grogan) to forego the motion which
stood in his name for to-morrow, and in that care the
bon, member for Inverness would probably follow his
example, seeing, the importance of bringing the debate
on the present bill to a conclusion as speedily as possible.
Mr. GROGAN said that if the noble lord would give

him his committee of inquiry now, there would be an
end of the matter. (A. laugh.) He should certainly bring
on his motion to-morrow, unless he were given Friday.
The debate was then adjourned until' to-morrow (this
dav).
CLERKS OF PETTYSEiSTONS (IRELAND)

•
BILL,
Thia bill was read a second time.
CONSPIRACY TO MURDER BILL.

The second reading of the Conspiracy to Alorder Bill
was; postponed until Friday.
PUBLIC HEALTH ACT (1848) AMENDMENT

BILL.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
believed the objections to this bill would be more readily
examined in committee than on the second reading. It
the house would now consent to the second reading, he
would name an early day for the committee.
ir. PALK said his objections were to the principle,
of the bill, and be should therefore very much prefer
discussing the bill now to acceding to the request of the
right hon. gentleman.
Mr. LOCKE was sure that this bill had become a
Parliamentary nuisance, for he had attended nikht after
night in expectation of the second reading and the die-
cussion arising thereon, when he found it h.,d been
invariably postponed. The house ought to know
whether it was to he preceded with or not.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the bill did not
deserve the character which the hon. gentleman had
given it. It was a bill to remove a einsance—(hear,
and laughter)—to remove that state of disease which
had occasioned a great loss of life. He L •,,ed the house
would not be led away by the vague ob,etvations of hon
eutlemen who wished to treat the matter as ono of no
imp,rtance, that they would come to the discussion
without the prejudice that was attempted to be thrown
over it.

Sir G. PECHELL hoped that the bill which had been
brought forward several times would have a day fixed
for its discussion. It had thrown over the Conspiracy
Bill that night, and he hoped it would last long enough
to throw it over altogether.
Mr. HENLEY thought that a day should be fixed
for the bill. It contained 180 odd clauses, and several
private acts were embodied in it.
The bill was then postponed till Friday.
NATIONAL GALLERY.

Lord ELCHLO wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer when he intended to proceed with this sub-
ject, a hich was one of great importance I
Mr. WILSON said that the sui j et would be post•
poned tid Thursday next.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes ti one,

TIZL4L OF TEE ROYAL BRITISH BANK

DIRECTORS.

COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH—CITY.
(Before Lord Campbell and a Special Jury.)
[The following appeared In successive editions or The Sun
of yesterday
The Queen on the prosecution of the Attorney-General
v. Humphrey Brown, Edward Esdaile, Henry Dunning
Macleod, Loraine de Wolfe Cochrane, Richard Hartley
Kennedy, William Daniel Owen, John Stapleton, Hugh
Innes Cameron, Lockhart Mere Valiant, and Fred.
Valiant.
Sir F. Thesiger, Mr. Atherton, Q.C., Mr. Sergeant
Ballantine, Mr. Welsby, and Mr. Joseph Brawn ap-
peared on the part of the Crown ; Mr. Huddleston,
Q.C., Mr. Kennedy, and Mr. Bell, for Brown ; Mr.
Edwin James, Q.C., and Mr, Asciland, for Esdaile, Mr.
Lawrance,'for Macleod ; Cochran, who had not pleaded,
did not appear ; Mr. Sergeant Shee, Mr. D. D. Keane,
and Mr. Jacobs appeared for Alderman Kennedy ; Mr.
Slade, Q.C., and Mr. Kingdon for Owen; Sir F. Kelly,
Mr. Bovill, Q.C., and Mr. Coleridge for Stapleton ; and
Mr. Digby Seymour and Mr. Bennett fir Cameron.
The following is an abstract of the indictments —The
indictment charged the defendants, in the first count,
with having fraudulently conspired to represent that the
affairsiof the British Bank were in a prosperous condition
during the whole of the year 1855, and half of the year
1856, and for that purpose, in order to carry out the
conspiracy, to publish a statement of the affairs of the
hank, to declare a dividend, when, in fact, no dividend
had been earned ; to issue 500 new shares, when
they well knew that the bank was approaching insol-
vency, and to publish false abstracts of the
annual balance-sheets, purporting to exhibit, Ist,
the assets and liabilities ; 2d, the profit and loss ;
31, the capital property and its value ; and, 4th, the
obligations and circulations of the bank to the date at
which the acoounte were made up. It further charges
that they did, in fact, publish sash false statements ;
that they had paid dividends as if they had been earned
.by the operations of the bank which had in fact never
been earned ; that to keep up the credit of the bank
they purchased shares in the market and paid for them
out of the moneys of the bank ; that they issued circa•
lard falsely stating that the bank was prosperous, and
published advertisements inviting persons to become
shareholders, with the like object; and had also pub-
lished a notice that they were about to issue a large
number of new shares at a 51. premium. With the
exception of the last count in each information, which is
a general count to cheat, the statements in the several
counts are varied with respect to shareholders, customers
to the bank, and liege subjects generally, the object
charged being to defraud, by inducing such persons to
buy new shares, or to depoat money in the bank.
The, case was resumed this morning. It is expected
that from the intricacy of the details connected with
the charges to be proved again 4 the defendants the
evidence for the prosecution will not be completed till
Saturday. The learned counsel for the defendants will
occupy at least three days in addressing the jury for their
respective clients, and allowing one day for Lord
C.impbe'l to corn up, the case will not be finished earlier
than Thursday or Friday week,
Lord Campbell suggested to the jury that it would be
better for them to take copious notes of the evidence
that would be aelduited on the trial, because they would
be detained many daSrs, and the evidence would no doubt
be of an intricate character, referring, as it would, o so
many defendants.
The Foreman of the Jury said he was directed by
the jury to make a rather novel application. They
would be called upon to attend many days, and they
thought they ought to be paid a guinea a-day for their
attendance.
Lord Campbell said it was impossible for him to make
any arrangements of that kind. It must rest with the
parties concerned.
The Foreman—Perhaps Sir F. Thesiger could give
them an answer.
Sir F. Thesiger said it Was hard to call on him to say
the
subject. I have no authority to act.
Lord Campbell said neither sides ought to be called on
so to act.
Sir 1. Thesiger said it was undesirable he should be
called upon then to pronounce an opinion.
Lord Campbell said he thought so.
The subject then dropped.
Mr. Paddison was then recalled and examined by Mr.
Atherton in reference to the Welsh mines,
Lord Campbell said it was desirable] that wheat any
new!evidence was-called on its nature should be briefly
stated.
Sir F. Theaiger assented, and said he then proposed
to commence inquiry into the Welsh mines, and pursue
it to its end.
Mr. Paddison then proceeded—Mr. H. Scale hap
transactions with the hank in 1850. He was engaged
in the iron trade in Glamorganshire, and was in commu-
nication with Ducalerr and Swift, a London house. Mr.
Scale obtained a credit of 5,000/. in that year, which
Was limited to 3,0001., to cover any bills the bank might
be liable bearing their names. On August 16, 1850, a
mortgage of the Hyttt collieries was executed by Scale
to the Bank, and also his interest in two mortgages for
2,0001. on property in Liverpool, which bore a previous
mortgage for 5,000/. The lease of the colliery was for
21 years, with a surface rent of 551. annually for the coal
and iron mines, with 3501. a year for the first 15 years,
then 250/. for the next year, an I afterwards a pepper
corn, making a gross payment of 6,658/. for the
term. In 1850 a further advance of 3,000/. was
made to Scales on the assignment of a mortgage
on plant and machinery at Langley Field Colliery,
Stafford-hire, and iron works near Salle. There
was also a special charge given on Scales' interest in
premises at Briton Ferry, Gerth, Cefu and Park iron-
works, warehouses and wharves at Portcawl, Glamor.
gan ; there was also a subsequent mortgage! on 600 tons
of pig iron. The witness then proceeded to detail the
transaction in reference to these advances, and the part the
defendants took in the proceedings by reference to books,
papers, &e. The evidence was of the dullest description,
but it might be briefly narrated in the f Bowing manner:—
Scale was also at that time the lessee of the Catherine
Gas Ironworks and the Briton Ferry works ; he was
under a contract to purchase the iron works from the
Galvanised Iron Company for 50,000/.; part of the
purchase money was to be left upon a mortgage of the
estate. The Briton Ferry works he was to purchase at
20,003/ ' upon the same terms. He applied to the bank
for further advances, and ho gave, by way of security, a
mortgage on the Langley Fields Colliery, in Stafford-
shire. The bank continued to discount the bills of sale
drawn upon Dunelerr, and a Mr. Swift, a merchant, had
been employed in the negociation of these discounts, and
in a very little time it appeared they amounted to about
18,000/. The bank, according to a statement made by
Esdaile himself, was very insufficiently secured for these
large advances, and it was suggested by Esdaile that
the bank should advance a further surn,for the purpose
of enabling them to become the purchasers of the dif-
ferent works which bad been designed to them by way
of mortgage. Pending these negotiations Scale became
a bankrupt, and the matter proceeded between Swift,
Dornlerr, and the company. The bank was to advance
to Dumlerr a sum of 20,000/., which they were to pay
to the Galvanised Iron Company, who were to sell the
first mortgage for a sum not exceeding 20,0001., and a
aura of 4,000/., which they agreed to advance, provided
Durolerr and Swift would undertake to procure another
4,0001. The Galvanised Iron Company was to have a
second mortgage for 10,000/., and Dumlerr and
Swift procured the advance of 4,000/, rorai
nally from a person named Ashley, but which was in
reality advanced to the Galvanised Iron Company.
Ddmlerr and Swift were to carry on these works ire
Glamorganebire, but it was agreed that the bank was to
send down an inspector to ascertain that the proceedings
were properly carried on. The advances in June, 1851,
by the bank to those works were 48,000/. Messrs.
Diicolerr and Swift required a further advance, being
unable to pay their workmen, and the bank consented
if the parties gave them a warrant of attorney to advance
thorn 10,000/. The bank advanced them 10,0501
to enable Diimlerr and Swift to pay a com-
position of 33. 63. in the pound. The whole
amount advanced by the bank in respect of
these works was 65,0001., whereas the whole
value was 23,000/. The works were thrown on their
hands. Unsuccessful attempts were made to get up a
company to take the mines, but at last it Mr, Clarke