The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-23 00:00:00

THE CAGLIARI.

Mr. KINGLAKE asked the Chancellor ( f the Ex-
chequer when the opinions of the present law officers of
the Crown in relation to the capture of the Cagliari
would be laid on the table of the house, and whether the
demand for compensation had been officially or not com-
municated to Sardinia • .

no CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
opinions of the law officers would that night be laid on
the table of tho house with other papers in connection
with the Cagliari. No notice had been given of the
second part of the question, and he asked to be allowtd
to give an answer on another occasion.
PENNY BILL AND RECEIPT STAMPS.,

Sir E. BUX CON asked the Cuar.c lbr of the Exche-
quer, what number of penny bill and receipt stamps were
issued during the last financial year. . •
Tne CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
660,000lenny bill stamps and 73,400,000 penny receipt
and cheque stamp had been issued during the'perlod
referred to. (Hear, hear.)
NEW ZEALAND LOAN.

Sir J. TREE. AWNEY gave notice that on going into
supply he Nhould call attention to matters connected with
the New Z aland Llan.
DANUBIAN PRINCIPALITIES.

Mr. GLADSTONE gave notice that he should to-
morrow put a question to her Majesty's Government
relative to the Danubian Principalities.

THE CAGLIARI.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER laid
additional papers on the table of the house relative to
the Cagliari.
DIPLOMATIC SALARIES AND PENSIONS:

Mr. WISE submitted the foils wing resolution to the
house, that it is the opinion of this house that the diplo-
matic salaries and pensions now charged on the consoli-
dated fund should be brought under the more immediate
view and centr• 1 of Parliament, and be paid out of a vote
annually provided by tho House of Commons for the
purpme. Tee hon. member stated that the consular ser-
vice baring recently been placed upon a more satis'ac-
tory footing, he was desirous of calling the attention of
the house to the advantages. which would result from
placing the diplomatic service in a state of equal effici-
ency. It was unfortunate that whenever such subjects
as these were introduced bye rivate individual, be was
too oten met with the idea that he was actuated by
personal animosity to corns particular individual. He
protested against such a couclus on being drawn from
the motion which he had submitted to the house. lie
reepi cted highly many members of that most honourable
body who followed-the pie festion of diplomacy. Tee
motion was on the f Ico of it of a finauchil character, but
it would necessarily combine natty other conditions. In i
the reign of the Georees the diplomatic salaries were
charged upon the civil list, but in the time of Win. IV.
the deelo:natic salaries were placed on the cons ••lidated
fund. But he apprehended that there could he no more
diffic airy in placing the salaries of the ambassadors
within the °nitro' of the House of Commons, in the
same manner art had been done at the commencement of
the reign of Wm IV., in the carte of the Ministers of
the Crown. He had brought forward a motion founded
on the report of the committee, and carried it by a ma-
j Tity 0f.55, the principal members of her ISlajsty's pre-
,sent Government g:v;ng him their support to the mo
tion. The committee to which he had referred reported
that it would be advieable to convert France and Con-
stantinople into first-class missions ; that one mission
should be formed for the whole of Germany ; and that
a consolidat'en should take place in the mission of Italy ;
and the repeat concluded by recommending an investi-
oatien into the c-,nsular service in the next session of
Parliament. Tee committee recommended that no salary
should excm d 5 0001. a year ; but in the xt year the
Lords of the Ti ea, ury cave an order for the salary of am-
bassador at Paris at 8,0001., and it was shortly after in-
creased to 10,0001. At Constantinople the salary was
14,0001. a-year, and extra expenses 8,0001. If there was
any mission to which he would he disposed to give a
large sum, it would ba.for those which were in the East.
He believed that the Eastern question was in reality
only postponed, and that France, England and Russia
still looked upon the East as a Nabetb's vineyard. It
was most important that our position in Egypt should
be kept tip; and he thought that a high political func-
tionary should be resident in that country. Tee question
of the dragomans connected with the embassy in the
Ea--t alone di served thel[llo t serious attention. Fur while
France and Austria employed persons who understood
the language, England was entirely dependent upon the
services of the natives to act as interpreters. This was
most disgraceful to the country, and if secrecy was in •
dispensible to the efficiency of the diplomatic service, it
was evident that the present mode of transacting busi-
ness was a most imperfect one. With reseeet to the 32
German S'ates, he thought that if we had a minister at
Vienna, Berlin, and Frankfort, it would be quite suffi-
cient for the diplomatic business of Germany. Now be
wished to say something upon the anomalies of what
might be ttroaed "the double system." At Lisbon they
paid an envoy 4,0001. a-year, a secretary of legation
5001., an attache 2001., altogether 4,7001., or with sun
dries, 5,2071.' on account of the embassy at Lisbon. On
the °tate leted, terry had also a ceneul there with 6001.
a-year, and a vies-consul with 3001. Now, what.
he wished to impress upon the house was, that one or
other of rho e establishments must be unnecessary. The_
evidence of Sir H. Seymour, vsho had been our repre
sentative at the court of Lisbon, made it pretty clear
that the business transacted by the consul might very
easily be done through the embassy. Mr. Cavendieb, of
the Foreign-office, had recently written a work
:on the
subject of the diplomatic service, which seemed to be
written with the intent of breaking up the whole
system. At any ra'e, the beck made a complete ex-
posure of the subject. It appeared, according to
Mr. Cavendish, that the et -if of the diplomatic
corps consisted of 136 gentlemen. Will, out of these 136
gentlemen, more than 100 there either peers, or the sons,
nephews, or near relations of peers. And it would be
further seen that, taking the five principal capitals of
Europa—Paris, St. Petersburg, Vienna, Berlin, and
Madrid—the representatives of Englaud during the last
100 years at those courts had numbered 146. Now, of
that number 116 were either themselves peers or the near
connections of peers. On the other hand, in France,
Russia, Prussia, America, and most of the other Euro-
pean States, promotion to the diplomatic service went
exclusively by merit; whilst in England, the most com-
mercial country in the world, they selected their ambas-
sadors merely on account of their high family connec-
tions. Ho believed that one of the wisest things the Go•
vernment of England could do would be to pay all those
connected with the diplomatic service adequate salaries,
aed therefore they should cease to have any such officers
as unpaid attacl (it, Having said thus much, he should
content himself with moving, that henceforward it was
the opinion of the house that the diplomatic salaries
should be under the immediate review of Parliament.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. FITZGERALD could not but acknowledge
that the hon. gentleman bad manifested a singular con•
stancy with regard to the question before the house, and
at the same time his efforts had been most prominent.
On the other hand, the hon. gentleman had introduced
topics int ) the discussion, as; for example, matters affect-
ing the residence of ambassadors, andiambassadorial
outfits, which had no leaning upen the question which
the house was called upon to decide. The boo, gentle-
man had given a very correct history of the subject be•
f ire them, and ha I very properly told them that up to
the year 1832 the salaries of the diplomatic agents were
charged upon the civil list. Now, ho wished, in the
first place, to direct the attentioe. of the house to the
report of the select committee of 1831—a committee ap-
pointed, be it remembered, by a reformed Parliament.
The committee, after having given the whole question
the very fuleat consideration, came to the conclusion
upon which the present system was lased. It appeared
to the committee that it was' not expedient to introduce
charges, such as the salaries of diplomatic agentsc:f
the annual estimates. The proposal, therefore,
ot
hop. gentleman was directly opposed to the
deliberateard
o
resolve of the select committee. Now, it app into
thehimprot
etchta tt
ht he e
ppurbe
Isieen
nsyt
esrteesmt s wtaos t
he foreign admirably d
reel adapted
ts tool
itmh er.Sotvaitdee,
inwt h4r
nl edait
itvhi
eelif
eaxapree
nt
di tinteu
riet. g uTau,red e r
es%.lat nosf
the

recommendation of the committee was that a charge of
180,0001. a-5- ear was placed upon the consolidated fund,
with a view to defraying the salaries and pensions of our
diplomatic agents ; and so far from that arrangement
tending to a greater expense, that nearly every year a
large sum has been returned to the Treasury. Generally
as much as 20,0001. and in to a or three instances as
much as 25,000.. The hon.'gentlenian wished, however,
to have the salaries of the diplomatio agents brought
under the annual notice of Parliainenf. Now, it was a
strange circumstance tlat wherever there had been an
exravagant expenditure in connection with the Foreign-
office, it was in connection with those matters wh ch
were submitted to the review of Parliament. He very
much feared, that the first result of the hon. gentle
man's proposal would be greatly to increase the expense
of the diplomatic service. The hon. gentleman had gone
on to refer to a subject to which it was most necessary
he (Mr. Fitz;erald) should adver`. The hon. gentleman
had urged upon the house the necessity of discon-
tinuing all the minor German missions. Now, upon
that point he thought the views of the noble lord
the 'member for Tiverton ought to carry convic-
tion to every one ; for whatever night be their
opinion as to the noble lord's foreign policy, they would
all agree there was no one iu this-country so capable of
giving an authentic judgment upon such a question as
the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) He could not consent to
the proposed r•-solation.
Mr. WHITE supported the resolution.
Mr. HORSMAN approved of the principle of the re-
solution, as only placing our foreign expenditure upon
the same footing as our domestic expenditure. Why
should not the salaries of our diplomatists be submitted
to Parliament as well as those of Ministers of State. He
objected to the secrecy used in our diplomatic transac-
tions, as not consistent with the principles of canstitu-
ticnal government.

Lord PALMERSTON said he hoped the house would
go to a division on the motion, not with any precon-
ceived notions or party views, brat simply on the question
as materially involving our national interests ; and it
was on that ground "clone that be rested his argument
against the motion. In the first piace, the motion before
the house tended to reverse a former decision deliberately
come to in regard to the payment of diplomatic salaries
and retired pensions • but, before they did that, he
thought it was incumbent on the hon. gentleman who
proposed to alter that arrangement, to show that public
inconvenience had arisen from the existing state of
things, and tie advantages to be derived from the pro-
posed change, but which they had failed to show. He
(Lord Palmerston) objected to the motion on constitu-
tional grounds, and should decline to follow his hen.
friend into the topics he had introduced into his speech
far beyond what the terms of his motion permitted. He
held it to be unconstitutional to bring diplomatic trans-
actions whilst pending -before the house and under its
°natant supervision, and at variance with the interests
of the country. (Hear.) There was no medium between
two courses that must be adopted. The house must either
place confidence in the responsible ministers of the. Cro w n,
and make them answerable for the results of the manage-
ment, or they must appoint a standing committee of the
house to take the management of foreign affairs under their
can-ideration, which it was unnecessary for•hien to say
would be entirely inconsistent with 'the constitution, and
opposed to the interests of the country. Nothing could
be worse than giving to popular assemblies a control
over ;di; lomatre arrangements, which the noble lord
illustrated by referring to disputes being likely to arise
such as had occurred between France and America
from that circumstance, and which, had it not been for
the earnest exertions of many friendy powers, might
have produced a very serious rupture between those two
countries. (Hear, Lear.) 'Whilst diplomatic arrange 7
ments were going on, it was desirable they should not
be miles public, but as soon as they were concluded it
was the practice to lay them on the table of the house,
when the house had an opportunity of calling on the
Government for an exp!anation of their conduct if it
were deemed desirable. Had this house possessed free-
dom of discussion in diplomatic transactions recent cir-
cum .tances might have led to a very different state of
relations than at present existed. (Hear.) He admitted
it was no degradation for the Ministers of the Clown to
have their salaries voted by that house, but he thought
it would tend materially to lessen the dignity of
the representatives at foreign courts if from their salaries
being plac,d in the eetimates were known, and the dis-
cussion that would follow on the•votes. His influence
at foreign courts would thereby be much impaired ; for
be must bo a brtunate man who could so perfJrat his
duties without giving (von intentioral offence, Her
Majority's Government who wer3 on the spot were able
to answer statements and charges made against them
when they were brought bef ire Parliament, but it would
not be the case with the diplomatic agents. They Would
be absent when charges were made against them by
wandering countrymen cr travellers in foreign cettn-
trice, and probably the Foreign-office would not have
the means of 0 in.rovesting the statements whisk &such
persons might cominonicate to hon. members, and
which might be stated in the course of the debate.
He (Lord Palmerston) thought, under these circum-
stances, it was for the interests of the service that the
salaries of our diplomatic agents should not be put
into the estimate, and come annually in review be-
fore Parliament. Such discussion as he had alluded
to, with the knowledge cf the salary paid, would mate-
rially lessen the diplomatic agent in the estimation of
society in the country in which he lived, and also dimi-
nish materially his influence at the court to which be was
accredited. Under all the circumstances lie thought it
was better to leave her Majesty's Governme ra the power
of apportioning the salaries of the diplomatic agents in
accordi.r.ce to_tbeir knowledge of the wants and require-
ments cf the country to which they were accredited.
(blear, and Divide.)
Mr. KINNAIRD, amidst loud cries cf " Divide,"
ex reseed his opinion that he hoped the hon, member
for Stafford would divide the house on his motion,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he thought the motion of his
hots friend the member for Stafford would tend to pi-e-
-duce confusion rather than true economy. (Hear, bear.)
He should therefore vote against the motion, but at the
same time he must say he thought many of his observa-
tions; though they had no immediate reference to the mo-
tion before the house Were well worthy of consideration.
(Hoar.) He (Lord J. Russell) thought it was desirable
that unpaid attacLfi should be dispensed with, by which
means many wou'd be disposed to enter the service who
were now prevented. He also thoughttbe salaries should
be revised, because he c msidtred there were many in-
stances of great inequality that required to be removed.
He did not agree in all the outcry that had been raised
against secret diplomacy, but he was of opinion that if
diplomatic papers were' of erer laid on the table than
they were, it would be beneficial for the public service,
and tend to remove false impressions abroad respecting
them. (clear, bear.) .

The house then dividtd. The numbers were—
For the motion . ll4
gain et it
Majority against th• motion —3B (Cheers )