The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-12 00:00:00

that the word " more" be inserted before the words
" than twelve."

Lord J. RUSSELL, after referring to the last discus-
sion relative to the number of the council, moved that
the council should consist of not less than twelve mem-
here, and ~aid it was necessary, before the committee
agreed to the number, they should first consider
the nature and duties of the council they were
about to form. The committee had decided there should
be a council presided over either by a Secretary of State
or the President of the Board of Control, and various
questions arose as to the constitution of the council. It
was necessary they should in the first place form a clear
notion for what purpose they proposed the council.
(Hear, hear.) He considered it should be a council con-
sisting of persons of high character, and it was a ques-
tion with many whether the council should be composed
of a half or a greater portion of persons of Indian ex-
perience. There were many persons who had served in
India, who bad ruled over millions, and whose decrees
were decisive, it would be desirable to have in th's COM:-
cil, but they were averse to accepting subordinate situa-
tions, or such as they thought derogatory for them to
accept—such as Meuntstuart Elphinstono and Metcalfe.
They must take care, both with regard to the position,
salary, and tenure of those offices, they should be such
as men of high distinction would be willing to accept.
With regard to the number of the council, it was desir-
able they should not have a larger number than they
would require for the due transaction of the business.
Her Majesty's Government having intimated that the
number should not be less than twelve, he thought that
with regard to the division of business into four com-
mittees, three to each committee, that the business
might be carefully and deliberately conducted—viz., one
committee for finance, one for the army and navy, one
for the internal government of India, compromising the
administration of jestice, and one for foreign affairs ;
but in order to enable such men as he had named to
transact the business, it would be necessary to provide
each committee with an able secretary, which would be
upon the principle of transacting the business of the
Colonial-office--viz., each department was under the
direction of an able man. Alt the members of the coun-
cil should hold a State dignity, such, for instance, as
privy councillors; and he thought they ought not to pre-
clude the members of the council from having seats in that
house—(hear)—any more than the members of the pre-
sent Court of Directors. (Hear.) The salary proposed by
her Majesty's Government for the members of the coun-
cil was 1,0001. each, and as some persons possessed,
probably, an absurd feeling that the importance of an
office was measured by the amount of salary, he sug-
gested that the amount should be 1,5001., a-year. And,
as bee Majesty's Government bad intended eighteen
councillors at 1,0001. a-year, if the committee agreed to
twelve with a salary of 1,5001. it would increase the
salaries without any increase of contemplated expense.
The secret committee, estabiished in 1793, ought not to
be continued. The members of the council ought to
possess the confidence of that house and of the country,
and they should be entrusted with the whole knowledge
of the affairs of India. All despatches ought to be laid
before them, and the Secretary of State should be bound
by them—(hear, hear)—the responsibility of final de-
cision resting with hies. (Hear.) In fitting out our
armaments the expense should first fall upon this coun-
try, but finally upon the territories and people of India.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to patronage, in order to get
rid of any suspicion that the members of the colloid gave
the preference to their relatives and friends overieersons
of greater merit, and to prevent its accumulation in the
hands of the Secretary of State, he thought it would be
desirable to throw the appointments open to free c ,m-
-petition. (Hear, hoar.) The military and civil services
of India were mcst distinguished services, and the promp-
titude, intelligence, and courage exhibited by the officers
of the Indian service on the breaking rest of the mutiny,
under circumstances unexpected, showed that no danger
however appalling, deprived thorn of the power of com-
manding and directing their thoughts and energies to
what required to be done on so great an emergency.
(Cheers.) Another great subject that must come under
the consideration of the committee was the administra-
tion of justice in India. (Hear, hear.) These were
matters which would require, when the committee was
appoiuted, full consideration. He thought it would
be unwise during the present year to ettrmpt any
great measure of legislation ; but he was anxious that a
step should be taken for transferring the government of
India to the Crown this sesbi )c, in order that at the
next meeting f parliament the attention of the Govern-
ment might be directed seriously to the consideration of
ell questions aff, cting the intere,ta of the people. (Hear,
hear.) He concluded by moving that the members of
the council should not exceed twelve.

Sir J. GRAHAM thought it desirable that the noble
lord should state in what manner it was proposed to
nominate the members of the council, and what was
their length of the proposed tenure.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would suggest that
the nomination should for the most part reel; with the
Crown. If the-nomination were put in the bill he would
not object to such a course, reserving to himself the
right of objecting to any name that might be proposed.
Ho thought that the best tenure of effice would be good
behaviour, and be thought that was really the best tenure
that could be adopted with respect to the members of
the council. If it was the opinion of the committee that
there should be a term of years, he thought it ought not
to be less than ten years.
Mr. ELLICE wished to know whether the noble lord
proposed that all the appointments in India should be
male abgo:utely by the Crown

L,lrd JO LIN- RtSSELL said that he would suggest
that the office of governor-general and the heads of the
three presidencies should be absolutely appointed by the
Crown.

Lord STANLEY said that to make the question before
the committee intelligible, lie would move to insert the
words, " not more than 15." The noble lord had raised a
great number of questions, but, however desirable it
might be to ascertain the opinions of members on those
points, he must remind -the house of the inconvenient
position in which they would be by discussing all
these points when they would have to vote simply
as to the number of the council. The entire matter
would have to be debated over again when they came
to consider the resolution regulating the constitution and
duties of the council, at the same time he admitted it was
not easy to decide what the number ought to be without
some consideration as to the nature of their duties. He
agreed with the noble lord that the council should consist
of men of high character and position, and of experience in
India, and that men of that class would not join in a body
in which they would be placed in a position inferior to
men who have not filled such great and important offices.
As to the number of committees, and the secretary to each,
these were matters of mere departmental detail, which the
house could not decide, but must be determined by those
closely and intimately acquainted with the working of the
department. The noble lord seemed to think that in future
years the business would be transacted more in India, and
less every year sent home. That was a difficult question;
and, from his limited practical experience, he would not
venture to decide, but he was not very sanguine as to a
reduction of business. To have an effective supervision in
important matters, they should have the habit of supervi-
sion, and to keep up the habit it would be necessary to ex-
tend it over a variety of matters of mere detail. Any one
who was acquainted with the business of a department
even one far less extensive and important than that of the
Indian Government—must be aware that any change in
the business of that department was always a matter of
some difficulty and some inconvenience ; and to effect a
sudden change was incompatible with the due performance
of public duties. He thought, therefore, that however
some. of them might look forward to a reduction in the
amount of business to be performed in the Indian depart-
ment in future years, they had no right to speculate upon
that; but if, 10 or 15 years hence, it was found that in
consequence of the new arrangements the amount of busi-
ness was less than it had been, Parliament would no doubt
diminish the number of the council. in proportion to the
dimieution in the amount of work to be done. As re-
garded the question raised by the noble lord, whether the
members of the council ought to have the title of privy
councillors, he thought it was rather a suggestion
'thrown out by him than a question on which he expected
the committee to express ateopinion. Ho was not at all
averse to entertain a proposition of that nature. He
felt very strongly that if they were to have an Indian coun-
cil—and the house had affirmed, and he thought wisely,
theta council was necessary—it was very important that
no means should he' left unemployed to give the members
of this council a position of dignity in the eyes of the coun-
try. With regard to the much wider question, whether the
members of this council might sit in Parliament, he thought
that was a question on which there might very fairgrounds
of argument either way. He knew it might be contended
that, both for the sake of that honseand for the sake of the
body which it was proposed to constitute, they ought not
to exclude those whose ambition would lead-them to desire
a seat le6th in that house and in the council ; but, on the
whole, recollecting what the noble lord had said—and in
that he quite agreed—that the functions of the proposed
council wore to be, as regarded the departmental affairs of
India, the functions of a cabinet; considering that the noble
lord proposed —and there also he agreed with him that
should be no exclusive secret committee, but that all the
members of the council should have a right to be informed
of all that Dassed.with regard to Indian affairs, this seemed
to him to furnish a very valid argument against the admis-
sion of those gentlemen to seats in that house. Although
he was quite ready to admit that no mere party queerel
would or ought to lead to a want of harmony between the
minister for India and his council, still they must bear in
mind that that was not only an English question, but that
questions of Indian policy would be very frequently dis-
cussed in that house, and he did net see how a confidential
council was to work if, when such questions came to be
disctrseed, the minister, acting on his own reeponeibility,
contended for the view which he might conscientiously
take, and those who were infoitned of all that was being
done, end who were at the same time his secret and con-
scientious advisers, with the advantage of the knowledge
which they possessed, took a course directly the oppesite
of
that minister. (Hear.) It seemed to him that, considering
the duties which it was intended for to impose
upon the council, a man of delicate feelings,
having weighed the responsibilities of both positions,
would not desire to act as a member of that house,
because either his official position must compel him to con-
ceal his convictions with regard to questions of Indian
policy which might be discussed, or else his faithful per.
formanco of Parliamentary duties with regard to matters
of Indian policy would make him a very inconvenient col.
league of the liliaister. (Rear, hear.) With regard to the
salary of the councillori, the noble lord (Lord J. Peuseell)
thought that 1,0001. a year would not ho enough, and pro•
posed-2,0001. a year. He (
the intention
effi-
ciency ; but irshotild be borne i a mind that every one who
that expense ought not to beLcoorndsiBdteartellcelys)o- cimuluctnehfiliamnsgitettfilhel-
retireel from the Inelian service had a retiring pension, to
which the salary of such an officer as that under considera-
tionnwmaso
not
ontt
swouldoo f
muchr be en
ut
eaora
apdtai
ityoi
no addition.
thet
councillors l eoc
01.thoughta year,f that,or th a
am
ount
of
of patronage.
lord .
Havingenterd
e
service done se to give a fair compensation for the addi-
tional expense to which they would be put by habitual re-
sidence in London. (Han, he
question
The
a
iticinto
.tChthecel rwupidoen atildhatd
iillult
question the other night: he (Lord
litanley) would not en er into it at length now. He had
never said that open competition was not a means of ob-
taining efficient officers for the Indian army. What he

had said, and what he now repeated, was this, that look-
ing at the system as an experiment—and it was an experi-
ment, which from the first had his fullest sympathies when
it was proposed in that house—and looking at the fact

ti.at it was an experiment of such recent introduction, he
did not think it was so universally good for the military
as for the civil service. He did not think it desirable to
decide that no person should enter the Indian army with-
out havingsubmitted to competitive examination. (Hear,
hear.) There was a large number of persons in the country
in whom ware combined considerable activity and a great
desire for honour and distinction, with intellectual facul-
ties which were not of a very high order • and these were
men who, not caring for civil service, mid yet being de-
sirous of obtaining distinction, were prepared to im-
peril and sacrifice their lives in the military
service. (Hear, hear.) This was a very useful class of
persons, and he thought it was not desirable alto-
gether to exclude them. Now he did not intend to pro-
pose in detail a plan with regard to the disposal of patron-
age, but it had occurred to him that it might be dealt
with in some such manner as this. The government could
have no objection whatever to the trial of that plan of
open corn, etition with regard to some portion of the
military service which had been already adopted in re-
ference to the civil service. All he contended for at pre-
sent was that it should not be the only means of admission.
He thought, for instance, that if patronage were divided
into a certain number of shares, as at present, the number
of admissions over and above those shored at present,
arising from the difference between the number of direc-
tors and the number of the council, might be fairly left
for open competition. There was one observation of the
noble lord to which he would advert, because it showed
the intrinsic difficulties of the question. The noble lord
_ . .

felt that a purely literary competition was not the right
means of obtaining the most efficient officers. He there-
fore proposed that there should ba competition of another

description—of what description he did not say ; but he
(Lord Stanley) supposed the noble lord referred partly to
physical attainments, which, in the case of the army, were

. ,
equally necessary with intellectual one?. Now, there was
the difficulty of dealing with this matter.. So long as they
were dealing with the civil service, whera the test was
purely literary or intellectual, there was no room for
favouritism or partiality on tho part of the examiners,
the functions exercised being purely judicial; but by en-
larging the functions of the examiners they would open
the door to suspicion, and the result might be to throw
discredit on that which, in its application to the civil
service, was liable to no such objection. He had no ob-
jection to competitive examinations being made one mode
of admission into the army, but he thought it would be,
to say the least, premature to make it the only door of
entrance. Something was said by the noble lord with
regard to the duties to be performed by the council
in the way of making laws for India. On that sub-

ject he thought the noble lord had attributed to
the council the functions which would belong to
the legislative council of India; and he apprehended
that now that a considerable share of povier was being
given to the council, it was very important that no colli-
sion should occur between the two bodies. The noble lord
next touched upon the queition of tenure; and on that
point he would state what was the opinion of the Govern-
ment. He thought the question between nomination and
election, or between a long term and a short one, was a
question relating to different modes of attaining the same
end, the importance of which every one felt, namely, that
of insuring the known independence of the council. Now,
of all the plans which had been proposed-- he said this with
all courtesy towards the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton—the plan of combining a short tenure of office with
the principle of re-election would virtually place the coun-
cil in a position in which they would be much more subor-
dinate to the minister than those permanent civil servants
in the public offices who were designated by the humble
title of clerks. Although, theoretically, any one of those
clerks might be dismissed, practically, through the force
of public opinion, no dismissal ever took place except for
proved incapacity or misconduct, while under the bill of
the noble lord the Minister need have no scruple in getting
rid of councillors at the end of their term of office. (Hear.)
Now there were, as it appeared to him, only two methods
of securing the independence of the council. Ono of these
means—and this would be put forward in,a subsequent
resolution—was to leave it to bo elected partly by a con-
stituency to be named ; the ether was to leave it to be
nominated by the Crown, to hold office either for a long
term of years or during good conduct. He thought that
either of those means would attain in a sufficient degree
the object proposed. He was of opinion that the elective
system would attain it the more thoroughly of the two ;
but though he should submit that proposition to thejudg-
went of the house, he could not shut his eyes to the ex-
treme difficulty of finding any constituency which
this country would approve. He did not think that
difficulty was absolutely indispensable, but it was a
difficulty which was strongly against the adoption of
the elective principle, If the elective principle should not
obtain the assent of the committee, the next best means of
ensuring the independence of the council was,he thought,the
adoption of the proposition of the noble lord the member
for London, viz., that the members of the council should
held their offices during good behaviour. He had now gone
through the main points of the noble lord's address, and
though he was not certain that his doing so was strictly
regular, considering the nature of the question under dis-
cussion, he hadithought it best that there should he no he-
sitation or delay iu stating the views of the Government.
Mr. V. SMITH complained of the inconvenience of this
irregular mode of discussing a number of questions con-
nected with India, which wore not immediately involved
in the question before the committee. He thought that
the notion of having committees for business was a cum-

brous one, and it was an arrangement that was not re-
quired. On the contrary, what was needed was a council
of advice. It was his opinion that much gain of time
would be effected by the coalescing of the two bodies at
Cannon-row and Leadenhall-street, rather than by having
two boards acting in rivalry with each other. What was
wanted, before the house decided upon the numbers of the
council, was a clear and explicit statement of the exact
duties of the proposed council. He should like to know
what was the exact amount of business transacted by the
committees of the directors at the India house, for he be-
lieved it would be found that practically the gr:at bulk of
the business was transacted by the chairman of the com-
mittee, or the secretaries and chief clerks. The hen. mem-
ber proceeded to refer to the evidence of Sir J. C. Melvill,
for the purpose of showing the delays which took place in
the receiving and transmission of despatches to and from
India connected with the government of the country. The
average attendance of directors he believed was, according
to the evidence of Sir J. C. Melvill, about six, and be was
inclined to the opinion that eight or twelve members at the
most would be sufficient to constitute the new council.
He was glad to hear the noble lord was inclined•to pause
before he opened the military service to competition. Ho
agreed with his noble friend the member for the city of
London that in that service physical qualifications were of
as much importance as intellectual. With regard to the
nomination to tut) council, he thought the time of service
ought to be fixed, and in order to make the council inde-
pendent they should be ineligible for reappointment. He
hoped the number would be limited to eight, at the out-
side.

Mr. T. BARING—The question as he understood it, was
a proposition that the number of the council should be not
more than 15 ; and if so, the original words would nearly
have met the case, by providing that the council should be
not more than 18 nor less than 12. It had been stated that
there was a vast quantity of uninteresting matter brought
before the existing committees, and thought it would be
better to do away with the system. He referred to Sir J.
and Mr. J. S. Mill; but how did they obtain their
information but from the mass of details which came before
them. Though there might be a question whether the
amount of details might not bo diminished, yet he should
be sorry if any council ceased to obtain that constant sup-
ply of records of fact as to India, for he believed it was the
only way to ascertain the conduct of its administration in
India. If at any time they ceased to claim those constant
reports they would find the officials in India very read; to
refrain from what caused them great trouble ; but if they
did not have those reports they could not ascertain how
the principles of government were carried into effect. He
did not hear from the noble lord the member for London,
nor from the noble lord the President of the Board of Con-
trol, whether the intention was that this council should
have frequent periodical and continuous sittings, and he
must say that as far as he had been able to form an opin-
ion ho believed that the beat government, if there was to
a chauge, would be to adopt the same system in Eug-
land as wee adopted in India, that there should beia Pre-
sident iu Council, that the matter in question should
be voted first by a majority, but still leaving the Presi-
dent in Council the power to overthrow that majority, oven
though they were unanimous against biro, and to act on
his own opinion, provided he recorded his reasons for so
doing. There was no magic in any particular number of
the members, and he was not sure that if they had only 12
members that they would be all efficient men. If they
transacted their business in committees, and had three
committees, they would reduce the number of the mem-
bers of the committees to a very low amount, such as would '
not allow for the ordinary casualties, such as sickness. The
present course, he believed; was for the chairman of the
committee to explain the report of the committee to the
directors, and then, if any further information was wanted
it was asked for. It was, in fact, a regular council. It had
been said that in consequence of cumbrous machinery you
could limit have an answer to a despatch under nine
months, but Sir J. Melvill stated that he know cases
where answers had been sent out by the next mail. There
was promptitude where it was necessary. He spoke with
the greatest diffidence on this subject, but after listening
with the greatest deference to what fell from the two noble
lords, he confessed that he should very mach regret if
there was a constant communication of every proceeding
in India to the home government—(hear, hear)—for he
believed that that was a great check on the government
there. With regard to the question of salary, ha did not
think that the difference of a few thousand pounds a year
would be any serious obstacle in the way of adopting a
Lager number of councillors. any honour, ho thought—
in the shape of being male privy councillors, for instance
--would, ho thought, be very desirable ; but if it was
thought that would attract gentlemen from India to be-
come councillors more than a seat in Parliament would,lhe
very much doubted the correctness of that assumption.
The scheme hardly involved the question of givieg an indi-
vidual a proper compensation for his services, but it was
very desirable that they should be placed beyond any
temptation, and beyond the pressure of limited moans.
(Hear, hear.) He did not feel competent to give an
opinion as to members of the council being in Parliament,
but it would bo a useful means of obtaining information
by questioning those members. The object must be to
make an independent no well as an efficient council.
As to choice of councillors by election, he doubted
whether it would work. He believed that if they were no-
minated for a period of years or for life, it would be mere
likely than any other mope to ensure an independent coun-
cil. Thera was another question brought before the com-
mittee,
one of very groat difficulty—he alluded to the
question of patronage, There were two kinds of patron !go,
nomination in England and attertvarCo promotion in India.
(hear.) They might he able perhaps to prevent; by open
competition any charge of f wow it sm in tee first instance,
but they did not exclude by open competition the favour
of the minister being Emig!: t for afterwards. There would
be applications from friends of the minister, from his sup-
porters in that house, and from constituents of supporters,
asking him,
.not perhaps for preference, but to give a fair
chance to a particular yonug man,
and if he had meri s to
promote him. 'Similar influence would be us: d with gover-
eo.a in Iu and hedid not l.now bow it was to be guarded
against. It might be said that the Celia of Ditectoihag s
done the same, but nobody had any permanent control over
them. They had not yet heard from the. Government
101 l • they had
what wore to be the duties of the cour ,
:
not hear,l whether they were to act as a perma. nor
nent
council sitting regularly with the president in council,
whctler h y were to be divided into committees, or to be
merely the heads of departments. If they' wished to have
every province in some degree represented in council, he
did not thind 18 would. be too many. „
it The CHAIRMAN might be
saidconvenient to put
inserted in the terms of the resolution.
the question in form : it was, that the word " more" be

Lord STANLEY wished to explain. The resolution had
been accidentally left in a very incomplete state on a for-

•
mer evening, and it was now proposed to insert the word
" more." When that amendment had been agreed to, ho
would propose to insert the words "than 15," and the ques-
tion of number would then be fairly before the committee.
The question th it the word "more" should be iuserted
was pat and agreed to.

Lord STANLEY said he would now propose to insert
the words " than 15," and in so doing he would merely say
that the really necessary number could only be ascertained
by the practical working of the system. Ho would ask
power to make the number as large as 15, but if it should
appear hereafter that that number was not necessary, he
did not with to pledge the committee to the appointment
of so many.
On the question being put,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would adhere to his number
of 12.

Mr. C. BRUCE said all their discussions had gone to
prove that it was much easier to pull down than to build
up a system ; and that the old adage, " More haste less
speed" was applicable to their proceedings. He thought
that 15 was not a number which could adequately and
efficiently discharge the duty which would devolve upon
them. India was so vast that a man might reside for
years in one part, and yet know nothing of any other
part. He certainly thought• that any less number than
18 would not be sufficient for the council. One great use
of a council would be to act as a check upon the minister
himself in the discharge of his duty. If he was sure that
the noble lord would always be President of the Council
he should have :every confidence in that quality of his
mind which would induce him to reject anything like
jobbery or favouritism in the discharge of his duty—
(hear, hear)— but the noble lord would not always be at
the head of the council. They all remembered the case of
that prince of intriguers, Meer Ali Moored, of Scinde,
who, though he had deal with persons in India of great
ability, was so clever as to deceive them all, including the
great general who conquered Scinde, and Lord Ellen-
borough. When such things had happened they wanted
a council sufficiently independent and numerous to check
the administration. He regretted frem the bottom of his
heart the retirement of Lord Ellenborough, for they could
not have a man more competent to deal with Indian
matters—(hear, hear)—brit still he had great confidence in
his successor, knowing as he did, his great ability. He
would entreat the noble lord not to come too hastily to a
conclusion as to the number of the-council, considering
that there were six great divisions of territory—Bengal,
Madras, Bombay, Scinde, the North Western Provinces,
and Burmali—and that there were six departments of
State—the military, financial, judicial, public works,
police, and home administration. They could not divide
the council into less than six departments, and to consti-
tute a perfect council there should be one member well
acquainted with each department. In introducing the
present bill the present Government could not t.e accused
of a desire to grasp to patronage. The elective prin-
ciple in the council, which, he thought, do much to se-
cure its -independence. But 18 members, in his opinion,
ought to be the minimum of the council. The hon.
member complimented the present Government upon the
satisfactory exercise of power observable since their acces-
sion to power, both. with regard to our foreign relations
and the faith they had kept with the country on financial
matters—(hear)—and stated his readiness to support this
measure as an earnest of their general policy. (Hear.)
Sir E.,COLEBROOKE considered that the numbers of
the new council ought very much to depend on whether
the council strictly confined themselves to the duties of
their office, and whether they would or would not have
seats in Parliament. (Hoar.) He attached the greatest
importance to this last point, and declared a decided lean-
ing towards the view that members of the council should
be eligible to sit in the House of Commons. One source
of weakness of the existing board of directors lay in their
being so much severed from the executive, and the active
deliberations of Government. It would not at all follow
that members of the council who were at the same ttmo
members of Parliament would b 3 partisans. Experience
had proved the contrary. (Haar.) Gentlemen represent-
ing Leadeuhall-street had shown considerable abstinence
in obtruding any peculiar views, and had exhibited a gene-
ral desire to assist the Minister of the day in measures
affecting the real interests of India. The house, he thought,
ought to exercise goat caution in diminishing thonumbers
of the council, and he believed that the hon. member for
Northampton would come round to his view. The " ob-
structivenese" of the present b rani of directors really
meant a substantial check upon the Government. By
diminishing the number of the council that check would
be required.
Sir C. WOOD quite agreed with his noble friend the
member for London, that the constitution of ' the council
was the most important point in the proposition. The
question of numbers of the ccuncil could not be discussed
without considering what were to be the functions which
they would have to discharge. The real question before
the house was the alternative between 12 and 15, although
the hon. member fur Elgin was in favour of Is. His own
•opinion was that the number of 15 ought not to be ex-
ceeded. (Hear.) He agreed with the hon. member for
Huntingdon that one of the principal functions of the
council ought to consist of a review of the treusactions of
the 'adieu Government. (Hear.) He agreed that the
Indian Government ought to be carried on principally in
Inlia, but the new council ought to be enabled to act as a
check upon the proceedingsof that Government. 'Undoubt-
edly the greater part of the details of Indian government
were prepared by such men as Sir James Melvin and Mr.
John Mill, and such indivi fuels would constitute the best
Eng?ish element that could be introduced. (Hear, hear.)
But he thought that the council ought to consist princi-
pally of persons intimately connected with Indian affairs.
Believing that the members of the council ought to devote
themselves exclusively to the duties of their office, he was
opposed to their having the privilege to sit in Parliament.
The Government of India would, he thought, be the best
judge of the eligibility of individuals to be placed upon the
council. If the council were not to pie iu Parliament, it
would be a much more easy task to settlethe numbers which
sheen compose it. He did not think that the change in the
bill of 1853, by which the old number of twenty-four was
reduced, had at all impaired the efficiency of the present
council. The practical effect of placing the direction in the
hands of a large number would be to throw the actual work
into the hands of two or three of the more active members,
whereas a small council would be more likely to transact the
business themselves. He laid little stress upon the argument
against the principle of nomination, believing that no Eng-
lish gentleman would sacrifice his own conscientious opi-
nions for the mere sake of retaining a seat in the Indian
Government. (Hear, hear.) The antecedents of Indian
officials was quite opposed to this apprehension. He
was of opinion that the appointment of the council should
not be for too long a period, because that would prevent
the infusion of new blood. With regard to the number,
he thought that twelve would be sufficient. Then,
again, was the Minister to bo responsible, or was he to
have a council for a screen? Ho thought the Minister
should be responsible. If:they were to have a responsible
Minister, Parliament should give him every assistance in
its power. They could never have responsibility without
conferring power. When he was President of the Board of
Control he always sent to the directors whoni he thought
best able to advise, and he must say that on every occasion
he received the readiest assistance from that body. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said the resolution before the house re-
ferred to the question whether the council should consist
of 12 or 15. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield
held that there should be no council, and he was inclined
to agree with him. The noblelord (Palmerston) proposed
eight, and he thought that would be a better number than
12, 15, or 18, and he hoped the noble lord would press his
view on that question. He thought the Minister would be
better off with a small than a large council, as there would
be fewer opportunities for party divisions. He was
of opinion that 15 privy councillors, with 1,501. a year
each, would be too large a drain upon the country, and he
believed that such a council would prove a complete
failure. FM. himself ho would say that he should vote for
the smallest numberof councillors that might be proposed.
If the resolutions went on in this slow manner he did not
think they would be able to get through them by the time
it would be necessary. to pay attention to the grouse in
Scotland. (Hear, -hoar.)
Lord PALMERSTON said he did not often agree with
the hon. member—(laughter)—but on this question he
seemed to agree with him more than any one. Ile agreed
that the house ia determining the number of the council
ought not to be lad to an adherence to the old system, but
to get as far from it as possible. He still thought eight
was the best number, but as the feeling of the house
seemed to be in favour of a larger number, ho would ac-
cept the number of 12. The house should remember that
this was a council of advice ; and if it was to overrule
and thwart the minister for India it was not possible for
him to be responsible to Parliament. The council
should be so far independent as to be able to give the
best advice. But it was a mistake to suppose that
a subordinate was valuable who gave unsound advice to
the head of his department in order to ingratiate himself
with him. It was the man who gave advice even against
his chief's opinion, for the purpose of assisting him out of
difficulty, that was to be valued and appreciated.
Sir. B. WILLOUGHBY thought there was no occasion
fur the committee to fetter itself in reference to the mem-
bers Qf the council when a bill had to be introduced. At
present they could not know what duties the council would
have to perform. Perhaps when they saw the bill they
would find that a council of ono would be sufficient, and
then the President of the Board of Control would bee groat
Mogul. He thought that it would be time enough when
the bill was brought in and the functions of the council
were assigned, to determine upon the number. (Hear.)
At present they had no information as to what the council
would have to do, and therefore he was in favour of abid-
ing by the original proposition of her Majesty's Govern-
ment. Ile trusted that the house would not fetter itself
by a dogmatic adhesion to a given number of councillors.
Mr. ELLICE (Coventry) said the proceedings upon this
resolution had reminded him of a 'Dutch Auction. (A.
laugh.) The noble lord the member for Tiverton had at
first proposed that the council should consist of eight mem-
bers, but now he suggested twelve ; and his noble friend
the member for London, who permitted him (Mr. Ellice)
to discuss the subject with him, had to his knowledte two
or three opinions upon the matter. (Laughter.) The sight
hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) had in iutroduc:ng
the- question made the most instructive speech he had
heard during the whole of these Indian debates ; but he
regretted to find that his bill did not bear out the promise
of the a ldress by which it had been heralded. Even the
right hon. gentleman had never stated what the council
would have to do. In feet upon that point, he (Mr Ellice)
could collect nothing. His noble friend said it ought to be
a cabinet council the noble lord the member fur Tiverton
told them that it would only have to give advice to the mi-
nister for India now and then, and the noble lord (the Pre-
sident of the Board of Control) said it would be a council of
greater weight. It surely seemed absurd to be settling
how many it was to consist of until they had defined it:
duties. (Hear, hear.) For his own part he thought its
duties would be very onerous. They were told that the
government of India must be in India; but there never
was such a delusion as that. (Hoar, hear.) If they at-
tempted to carry out such a notion the abuses must noses-
sadly be very great. They would immediately have a
Lumber of little oligerchies of coenefls who would dispose
of the whole pa'ronage in the country arneng,st their
friends. (Hear, hear.) The council would Lave to be at
oeco a court of retiew and a court cf appeal—it would
have to operate as a check upon the government of India,
and at the came time bo a body to which both the public
servants and the natives of India might look fur the redress
of any grievances they might have to complain of. Then
it would hove to innlortake large financial operations
amounting -to five or six millions a year. In point of fact,
the management of India was not a department —it was a
goverment itself. (lie.a.) Under these circumstances
it would be most foolish to reduce the number of the
council too much. Sir James Melvill had, on this point,
given most valuable and disinterested evidence. Ho said
that the number of tleAdirectere lied been reduced as much
as was safe ; and he prised thst no further diminution
should be attempted. Considering the many important
questions which would have to be dealt with, the nature of
the encour agentent to be given in future to miseionariee,
the question of education, the reform of the army, and
many others, ho di 1 not think they ought to cripple the
machinery of administration. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the
house WAS prepared at or z.e to vote up m this resolution, and

thus to show that they were really in earnest on the subject
of carrying the measure. (Hear, hear.) The only question
they had then to consider was the number of which the
council should consist. His own opinion was that there
should be a minimum as well as a maximum named, and if
the motion of his noble friend were agreed to he should pro-
pose to insert the words, ." and not less than 12 ;" if, on
the other hand, the noble lord's (Lord J. Russell's) amend-
ment were carried, he should propose that it ran " not
more and nit less than 1?." (Hear, hear.) They had been
asked and by no one more frequently than by the right
hon. gentleman (Mr. Ellice), what the council was to do ;
and the right hon. gentleman had, on every occasion,
answered his own questim. Speaking generally, the
duties of the council would be the same as those which
were now performed by the Court of Directors. (Hear.)
There was no doubt that though' they would no longer
sign the documents, they would often virtually originate
measures ; for they would lay the results of their ex-
perience and research before the minister, and he would
no doubt frequently adopt them. It would be a real
council, and he hoped it would also be an independent and
an influential one. (Hear, hear.) He would advert to one
or two pointed questions that had been put. As to the
finance of India and its relation to the new minister, it
would be the same as it was under the President of the
Board of Control. The new minister would exercise no
more influence than the President of the Board of Control.
The elective principle would be dealt with in a subsequent
resolution. There ought to be a calm and dispassionate
decision on that question. All sides agreed in desiring to
secure the independence of the council; and whether this
was to be done by the elective principle it would be for the
house to decide after full consideration. Mr. Ellice had
asked what government intended to do about the organisa-
tion of the Indian army? The resolutions had nothing to
do with that. It must occupy the deliberation of cabinets,
and then no doubt measures would be taken adequate to
the occasion. The government meant to issue a com-
mission to inquire into the whole subject of the re-
organisation of the army ; a question cf that magnitude
could not be left to the home government alone. The
question now Lefore the committee had been fully dis-
cussed, and it was now ripe for a decision. It was im-
portant that the resolution should fix a minimum ; and if
the amendment of the noble lord was carried he should
move that 12 be the minimum.number of members of the
council.

The committee then divided on the question that the
word twelve stand part of the questi.m, when the num•
hers were—

Aes 176
Noyes 243
Majority
The announcement was receiv3,l with tremendous cheers.
The word " 15" was then inserted.

The words " more than 18" were struck out.
Lord STANLEY then rose to move that the words
"not less than twelve" be inserted. Government had not
so far pledged themselves to a specific number, but as the
feeling of the committee was evidently that the minimum
should be twelve, they had determined so to limit it.
After some conversation, the committee agreed to the
addition of the words propos-d, sill the resolution as
amended was passed.
Lord STANLEY then moved the noxt resolution, that
in order to secure the great amount of knowledge and ex'
perienee in the management of the affairs of India it is ad-
visable that the principal portion of the members of the
council shall have served in India for a term of years to be
limited by statute. It was not, however, the intention of
Government that the whole of the council should consist
of old Indians, but that there should be a certain admixture
of the English element.
Mr. GREGSON rose to move the insertion of the word,
" or resided" after served,. which he hoped the noble lord
would admit.
Lord STANLEY had no intention to exclude the civil
servants, and should not object to the addition of the words,

Mr. 'LIDDELL agreed that there should be a mixture
of the English element, but they should have a pledge that
the members should be persons who had served in India.
He had not that faith in Governments that he would like
to see such important offices given up as matter of comps•
tition.

Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
as the next resolution (the (ith) was one of importance, -
and as several hon. gentlemen who were entitled to be
heard on it were absent, he proposed that they Should not
proceed with it now, but take it at the next morning sit'
tine on Thursday.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that he should move
an amendment that the council be nominated by bet
Majesty.
Sir J. SHELLEY said both this resolution and the Lon'
don Corporation Bill were fixed for that day, he would AO;
which would be proceeded with ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Indian debate would bo taken.

The Chairman then reported progress and obtained lee"
to sit again.
CHELSEA. BRIDGE ACT AMENDMENT Brur..,,
Lord J. MANNERS moved the second reading of to_i"
bill. He said thorehad been some dissatisfaction expregmb
by the inhabitants of the locally that a toll was put 01,
the bridge. A bill was proposed by the late Governinerr,'
that would have abolished the toll entirely, but that 1)1°'
being submitted to a committee they declared the preambie
sot proved. He now proposed that the toll should cease on
the receipts of the bridge amounting to 37,00,/. The bride
bad been open ten weeks, and the receipts averaged_l3ol'
a week. On the whole, he thought there was a reasonable
probability of the debt being paid. (The greater portion ,
of the noble lord's statement was inaudible.)
Mr. BLACKBtTRN had not heard a single word of the
noble lord's speech, and the majority of the communice'
Lions might as well be marked private and confidential. ,
This appeared to him as a proposal to make the inabitants.
of a local district a present of the interert on a sum ci
money which had been lent them. That interest would
amount to about 4001. a-year. The house had in a foolish
moment lent the money to a district, andthey now wanted
to break the bargain. (Hoar, hear.) It was proposed last
year to excuse them entirely,• but that was rejected by the •
committee. The present measure was an attempt to get
in the thin end of the wedge. He should move that the
bill be read a second time that day six months.
Sir B. HALL said the bill which he had introduced W
to abolish the foot toll. He would thus have given an
mediate relief, and still would have taken the printifs"
and interest—that is, if he could get them. (A laugh.)
Lord JOHN MANNERS explained that the bill would
abolish the foot toll only at •the period when the stun ol
97,000/. due to the Exchequer Loan Commission, and made
up of an advance of 80,000/. and interest should have beau
repaid. With regard to the 120,0001. made up of the GO"
vernment grants for building, &e., there had been no plede
of repayment, and he intended to treat those sums as grant'
not as loans.
Mr. A LCOCK objected altogether to greets of P-
hlio
money for local purposes, but the land, if sold by auct
would pay off the whole sum. That was assuming that the
COMmis,ioners of Public Works new their business, but
for one had no confidence that they did know their but,l2,
news, or that they knew how to dispose of the land to the
best advantage. If the land for sale was worth more then
the debt, the noble lord had no right to maintains toll 11.
the bridge. He defied the noble lord to maintain the, t„,,
Mr. P. O'BRIEN considered the real question at gt.
was, whether public money was to be advanced for metro'
politan local improvements. He should certainly suPP°l,„ •
the amendment of the hon. member opposite (Mr. 81-1°
burn). If this bridge must be made free, he could not 1.0
derstand why every other metropolitan bridge on Will°
tolls were levied should not also be made free. bt
Sir j. SHELLEY denied that the bill had been brag
forward at the instigation of the metropolitan merebert
At the same time he was determined to support the proZue
sition to do away with the foot tolls on the bridge; forfo
believed that thereby the Government property on
Surrey side of the bridge would be so improved as to 0(31‘,
penaate the public for the loss of 4,000/., the amount ne°4
realised by the foot tolls. Let it ba borne in mind that
Battersea-park was constructed for the use of the worlql3,:!
classes, and it was an undoubted fact that the worklat
classes were unable to use it on accoucit'of the tolls. 51/047
bill did not go so far as ho desired, still he would sup
P°(
it in the hope that when they got into committee to"
might improve it.
Mr. S. HERBERT would vote against the second re's.
log of the bill. He could not consent to the public 02",,,
being allocated for the creation of local improvenuss'
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. LOCKE denied that a work like this could ibt:
considered as merely a local improvement. It was tuf
clear that through the maintenance of the toll the pre bet
on both sides of the bridge was detrimental to value ; wo,
if the toll were removed, the property would become
enhanced in value as to repay the Government for the 1100
incurred by the surrender of the toll. As a step in the
right direction, he should most certainly supper'
second reading of the bill.
‘''
Mr. SPOONER moved the adjournment of the de etoo
Lord PALMERSTON said his only complaint sigle-0
the bill was that it postponed indefinitely the periods
the working-classes should have access to Battersera-Ortaa
It was perfectly competent for Parliament, if it eb°,,iit
think fit, to forego any claim which the Exchequer oleo
have upon the tolls of the bridge. He 'hoped, therhstel
house would sympathise with the working claeses,ilheie •
would accept the bill as an instalment of what vrag
right. (Hear, hear.) oulci
Mr. JACKSON, as chairman of the committee, 1/.000
suggest that the country should be generous and throw.,id
the bridge, on condition that the two counties au 0 *
.A 4
should guarantee the maintenance of the bridge.,„„eue
practical man he believed that the consequent ene'-ovid
value of the Government land in the neighbourhood
00 of
reimburse the State for the outlay ou the construct'
the bridge. (Hear, hear.)
/Or
Mr. AYRTON suggested that the bill should be taie
drawn until the report of the Metropolitan Toll Coca .
sioners should be presented. - 00"
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER '„ thall
mended the house to agree to; tic moti n to adieur-
debate. OA*
The house divided on the motion for Lie adjourn°- •
Ayes ..
Noes
—SS b•
Majority •
Ol oeo "to
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER - goe •
served that for the future it would be well if they conl°
an agreement that all opposed orders of the day thboril.)
on after 12 o'clock should be postponed. (Loud c
The house adjourned at a quarter past one.

~

BIRTHS. twt'
BURY— On the Ist inst. a
, at her residence, in Sloane's-
Viscountess Bury, of son.tb
CLOWES—On the 10th inst., at 4, Halewood-sclil°"'
wife of William Cloves, Esq., of a daughter. tor
LAMB —On the 10th inst., at 3, Hinde-street, Ida
square, the wife of E. B. Lamb, Esq., of a detug"—the
TURNER—On the 9th inst , at Lee-road, 131ackbetr;
wife of Frederick J. Turner, Esq., barrister-at-us"
a daughter.
•

MARRIAGES. ljot'
FRANCIS—SCOT—On the 10th inst., at St. John'gPog.,
tiag-hill, Thomas Watson, son of W. S. Francis,,,zoot,
Wof elidos.) square, London, and EAstWickhon,A;l., of
to Fanny Geor,giana, daughter of R. A. Scott, Pa
Bayswater.

DEATHS. /
Bilovi7N---On the 10th inst., at his residence, tea
street, Soho-square, Robert Brown, Esq., P.C..'
gell 55. Yew
BRICSTOCKE-0a the 7th inst., at Burton Rectory'
Jobs
brokeshire,- Mary Catherine, relict of the Bc' „iia
Brigetocke, and daughter of the late Sir Wian3
Lady Sarah Champion de Crespigny.
DunANT.--On the 9th inst., at Poole, Dorset, J.
Esq., aged 78.

(3
LONDON Printed and Published by DIIIIO3O YOU1:10.
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun 011100, tt,
112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the coti'l
of giddiesex, Saturday, Juue 12, 1558.