The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-03 00:00:00

LONDON, SATURDAY tVENING, JULY 3, 1858.

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PREFERENCE SHARES.

Elyth and Tyue 10 p.
c.pref. (issd.at 501.)
& Ex. 4 p. c. St.
`Do 4 per c. Shares
1 '
Caledn. £lO 4i p. c.
Ches. St Ho. 5 p. c.
Do. do. 5 per cent
(Cork&Bandons)p.e
Dun. Perth. ttAber.J
lE. Anglian els. A Sh
1110. do. Cis. B 6p. c
Do. do. Cla. C i p. c
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f Do. New 6 pr. c. St.
East Un. G. 6p. c.
Do. 51. 10 per cent.
Do. 104 Debentr.Sh.
Do. do. 4 per cent
East Lane ash. 6 p.cts
E.&W. York. J. stlo
&lin. & Gl. 5 p. c. Sh.
Ed. rrth.k Dun. 4p.e.
Furness, 5 p. e.
G'las. & 5.W.G.5 p.c.
Groat Northn. r, p.e.
'Do. 5 p. c. Redeem
at 10 p. c, prem...,
Do. 4i per cent
Do. 5 p.c., Red. at 5
p. c. prem.
Gt.N. of Scot.lst Pr(
I• Gt S &W. (Ireland)
iDo. 4 pert. Prof. St.
' Gt. W. (B. &H. Ex.spe
Do. con, red. 44 p.c.
Do. con. red. 4 p. c.
Do. irred. 4 per 'ant.
Do. 5 p. c. red. pref.
Do. firm. Pref. Sh
Do. Chester Sp. c. P. S
Do. do. 5 p. c. do—
Do. Rim Gua, Stk
Do. Chesil. Gua. Sh
Do. do. do
Do. do. do. ..... ~... ,
Lan, & York. 6 pe. St;
Lon. & B. G. 5 pc. No.l
Do. ,P. , 51; c. St. N 0.2
Do. New Guar. 6p. c.
Do, do. 5 p. c., N 0.4
Lon.* N. W., Coy. &
Nuneaton 5 r. et
Lon. & S.lll/. 7 por ct.

late 3d Shares
Lowly. dt Color. Sh
Londy.&Ennis. Sh.
M., S.,&L. 6 p. Cent.
Do. do. do. £6
Do. do. 31 per cent.
Marypt. is Carl. 4 p.c.
Do. per cent
Do. do.

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Do, Con. Br. Bir. 6 p.c.
Do, 4i p. c. Pref. St.
Do. L. &11. Prof. St.
New., Aber., &c., pr.
sp. e. red. 5 p. c. pm.
Do. Porpet. 6 pr. ct.
Norf Deb.,' p. c Slu.
Do. 5 p. c. Ext. 1846
Do. p.c. pf , 1847
Do.lVv, V. sp. !. ,18 47
North British
Do. 71. ?reference._
N. E. Borw. 4 p.c.Prf.
Do. do. do
j Do. Leeds 6 pe. No. 1
Do. do. Qrs., 1848_
Do. York 11. &S. Pm
!North Staffordshire
Ox., Wor. & Wolv. 6
p.c., Ist guar
!Do, 6 p. c. 2d guar
Do. do. Debentr. St
!Scot. Cent.NQw Pre r
Sc.N. E. Aber. tr.6p. c
!Do, do. 7 p.c. pf. St
Do. d 0.3 p.c. pf. St
South Devon
Do. fixed :it, pr cent
S. Eastern (Reading
Ann.) of Os. 61.
'Do. 4i per cent
Do. Fixed 4,4,!. p.c. Six
New pr. cant
S. Wales Qua. 4 p.c
Do. do. 4. p. c
IS'Yorksh.4p.e.Guar
Stock. &Dar., 5 p. c
[Do. do. do.
!Watorfd& Kilk. 6 pc

48 - 50
95 - 97

1100 - 102

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112 - 115
107 - 110
115 - 118
118 - 116
133 - 134
79 - 81.

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1112 - 114

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91 -- 93
83 -- 85
84 -- 80
99 -- 101
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16 -- 17
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71 -- 73
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104 - 106
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BRITISH

;Alfred Cons. (Philk,)
British Iron

23 - 24
101 - 193
101 - 103

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Dev. Gt. Cusls. (Tay.)
EAst Basset (Mogan)
Great South Tolgus
G rt. W. Alfrd.(Philk.)
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N. W. Basset (Mogan;
North Wheal Crofty
Par. Cons. (St. Blaxy)
'Porkellis U. (Wend.)
Sort. Cons. Min. Co.
S. Caradou (St. Cloor)
S. Can Brea (ILlogu.)
,S.W. Frauces(lllogn.)
Tam. S. & L. Mo. Co
Tin Croft
(Jo. Mines (Gwennap)
V. of Towoy (Caniar.)
W. Basset
W. Caradon (Liskrd.)l
Wh. Basset (Illogan),I
Wh. Buller ( ltdruth).
Wh. Edward(Calstck)
Wh. Kitty (U. Llant)
Wh. Ma. Ann (Monht.
Wh. Trelawney (Lis.)

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Easiness
this day.

MISCELLANEOUS.
1000 1000 Atlantic Tel. (Lim.) ,
25 19 !Australian Agricult. 31
10 all lAustraln. Royal Mail 1 11
10 all ;Berlin Water Worka.. 3i 4
10 2 New iss. at 51. d
50 40 !Brit. Ayneric:lll LATI
100 32.. ....1117........... 122 121
Do.Go.Gpc.Jan&July 113 114 1131 x d
St. all Copper Min. of Eng. ,25 30
25 all Do. Pref. 71 p. cent. 25 27
5 all ,Crystal Palace ......... 1 11 ld 1/
5 all Do. Preference ...... 41 4i
4 all !Crystal Pal, of Franco
20 all Eastern 5team........! 31
St. 100 Electrielelograph 103 106
1 all Electric Tel. of Irel.
5 all En. diAust.Cop.SmO° 11 -- 1
10 10s. Eur. & 111(1.J:ctn. T.
9 all Uur.&Am.Stm.(6o.) 3 -- 34 3
20 all Gen. Ir. Sc.
15 14 Gen. Steam Navigat.•2o 5 London Discount ... 1 d
4 all Loud. Gen. Omnibub 2i 28 2a
20 10 Magdalena St.
10 all Mediteran. Elec. Tel. 7i 8
10 all Do. Extension To;eg.
10 all Mexicali& S.Americc
25 5 Nat. Discount C 0....
10 6 Netherlands Land.... --
10 all Do. Do. ...........
5 all !Do.B p.c.PLiss.st ..
tl. 1A _ 12
5 3 Do. Do. ........ 21 1 d
100 80 B. &N. S.l.awl ‘,14, —l7
St. 100 N.S.W. Gov.s " 100 100
1 all N. B. Australasian— g
20 all Nrtli.ofEnropoSteam 2i Si 2 3
1 all Oriental Gas . ....... . 1
1 10s. Do New Shares ad
5 all Peellir. Minrl 2 21 •
50 all !Peninsular .Ss Orients! 78 7
89 78,1 8
50 10 Do. Now ........... • 7a - p
60 all Rhyme; Iron 2O 22p
100 GO Royal Mail Stearn N . 61 ,601
1 all Seot.Austral.lnvest
St 100 S.Aus.Gov.6p.c•bas• 101 16
25 all South Austral. Lam 36 3T
1 all Submarine Tel. Seril 1
1 all Do. Registered
20 5 Trus.Lu.Co, Up. Can
{ 1001 28i, Van Dnnuou'm Laud lOl -4. it

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS. —(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

CHURCH RATES.

A large number of petitions against the abolition of
church rates were presented by the Lord Caancsllor, the
Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bishop. of London, the
Bishop of Chichester, the Bishop of Bath and the
Bishop of Ripon, Lord Wynford, the Earl of Carnarvon,
and Lord Lyttleton.
The Duke of Rutland, Lord Brougham, Lord Bei per,
the Duke of Somerset, the Earl of Albemarle, Earl
Granville, Lord Lucan, Earl St. Germans, and the Mar-
quis of Lansdowne, presented petitions in favour of the
abolition of church rates,
THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT.

In reply to the Duke of WELLINGTON,
The Earl of DERBY said it was t-p rife're, e: the
Government, and a!:,r, 'f the ceuetry, I, erect a monu-
ment to the late Illustrious duke, worthy of the great
services rendered to his country. In order to carry
out this desire, it would be recollected that a public
exhibition of the 83 models sent in for competition took
place. Tire noble duke had stated that the whole of these
designs bad been rejected, and that a model had been
decided vine, which was the joint compesition of several
artietes. Now the whole of the designs were not re-
jected, on the contrary a number of the competitors re-
ceived substantial reward. The design of Mr. Mar-
shall was amongst these selected by tho corn.,
mittee, of which the noble marquis (Lansdowne)
opposite was a member ; but it was chosen, however, as
a work of art, and by no means with regard to the situa-
tion it was to occupy. The Dean of St. Paul's and the
architect, on consultation, had selected a more appropriate
site than that originally intended. The spot selected
was the old Consietory Conr.,, which it cvas intended to
convert into a Wellington chapel. The work of
Mr. Stevens, which was numb,:red 18 in the exhibition,
was, ho sever, afterwards selected, as being more
appropriate, and in unison with the architecture of the
cathedral, and this selection had not only been approved
by the dean and by the architect, but he believed that
it bad received general commendation. Unless the car-
rying oat of the design was left to one person, and that
parson was the First Commissioner of Works, nothing
would be done, because there never would be ;4.11 end •
to any scheme whin might be proposed. This fact
applied to the not very savoury river in their imme-
diate vicinity—(hear, hear, and laughter)—and the
Government offices, as endless plans had been • pro-
posed, and none up to the present moment ac-
tually adopted. His right hon. friend was the proper
person to whom ought/to be left the carrying out of the
erection of tho monument, and their lordships migh'
rest assured that the monument would be erected in a
manner worthy of a great cation.
After a few observations from the Msrquis of LANS-
DOWNE, the subject dropped.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Hoye Iwprovemeat, and the Vale of Towy Ry
Bills were read a i.econd time.
The Manchester Corporation Water, the Thiry and
Radcliffe Water, the Llanclaf and Cantor Districts
Market, and the Soush I.Lvon and ravisteck Railway
Bills were read a third time and passed.

VICTORIA STATION AND PIMLICO RAILWAY
The Earl of DONOUGIIMORE moved the suspen-
sion of standing order No. 147, in order to enable the
First Commissioners of Works to be heard by counsel
against this sill.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY objected to the
motion. Ile did not think B. case strong enough to call
upon their lordships to suspend their standing order had
been made out.

Earl GREY was ooposed to any departute from the
usual course. The First Commissioner on this occaAion
did not represent the Crown, but a corporation having
the management of Battersea-park and Chelsea. bridge.
Sir B. Ball, the late head of that corporation, had up.
proved of the plans for the railway extension, and the
corporation was hocud by what he had done. It ought
not to be allowed to take a different course, because the
corporation was nos under another head.

The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed that it was im•
portant that the standing orders should be adhered to ;
but the question was whether this was not a case in
which they mint properly be suspended. Having had
the facts submitted to him, he was of opinion that it was
not a case in which the Crown was interested ; and
therefore there was no necessity for obtaining the royal
assent to the preamble of the bill. He, ho Never,
thought it essential that the Chief Commissioner should
petition against the bil', and as the time for presenting
such petition had passed, the motion was now made for
suspending the standing order, so that the petition
might be presented. It Wilq said that the corporation
was bound by what had
.been done by its late head.
But this was not a corporation for private purposes, but
one for the protection of public interests ; and had the
late Chief Commissioner seen fit to change his mind in
regard to those plans, it would have been open to him to
do so, and to oppose the bill. In like manner, the now
Chief Commissioner, taking a different view from his
predecessor, had a perfect right to take such steps as ho
thought necessary for protecting tho public interests.
The case was one in which the opportunity should be
given him to do so by the suspension of the standing
order.

Rail GRANVILLE opposed the motion. No eve
whatever had been -made out for suspending the order.
It amendLotnts in the bill were necessary they might be
moved in the whole house on the third reading.
Lord REDESDALE said that it was not at all un-
usual for the standing order to be suspended in favour of
petitions which had beenaccidentaily delayed beyond the
time. The extraordinary position in which the park and
bridge were placed of itself justified a suspension of the
etanniug order.

Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY again adverted to
Sir B. Hall's approval of the plans.
The Earl of DO.N UGHMORE repeated his impres-
sion of what had passed.
The Earl of WICKLO W said the reasons which had
been assigned for granting theprayer of the petition were
in his opiniuu insufficient, and he trusted their lordships
would, from a regard fur the interests of the public, and
from a eunsidera,iiou of the position of the companies
who had been misled by the Board of Works, reject the
motion.

Their lordships then divided on the question that the
standing order be suspended.
The nue.bers were—
Content .
Non-coateut
Majority
CHURCH RATE ABOLITION BILL.
The Duke of SOMERSET having presented a very
large number of petition; praying for tho abolition of
church rates, said the bill 'to which he was about to ask
their lordships to give a second reading, provided for the
entire abolition of church rates in England and Wales,
and contained no provision by way of substitution. Ile
should not have undertaken the management of the bill
if he had not already supported such a measure in the
other howled Parliament, and if he had not heitid the
qaustion debated over and over again, and all the sub-
stitutes which had been proposed. Haviag heard the
matter discussed for a period of 20 years, he had coins
to the conclusion that the beet course to pursue was in
the first iustauce to abolish tnis cornpulsoryrate. (Hear.)
The number of petitions winch he had presented in
favour of that principle showed the strong telling that
existed in the country upon the subject. These peti-
tions had come from large toeing, and from an um-
mouse number of villages in all parts of the country.
The bill, moreover, was supported by the House of
Commons. He scarcely knew any subject which
had excited so much feeling throughout the country, and
he trusted their lordships would give the bill a feir con-
sideration, for as yet they had not come to any vote
upon the question, and were not at all pledged either
one way or the other. He believed also that the Go-
vernment were not pledged to any particular course,
and that the question was considered an open one, fur
an influential weather of the Government in the other
house had not only voted but spoken in favour of the
bill. (Hear, bear.) Ho very much regretted the deo
olaratiun which had been made the other night by the
noble earl at the head of the Government that he in-
tended to move that the bill be read a second time that
day six months. (Hear, hear.) He would briefly call
their lordships' attention to some of the attemptswhich
bad been made to settle the question. In May, 1855,
a bill was laid on their lordshipi,' table by the right rev.
prelate, affirming the principle that in every parish
where the church rate had been twice refused, it should
for ever cease. That measure failed. Since the year
1833, almost every Government and every leading states-
man in the House of Commons had endeavoured to set
the matter at rest. (Hear, hear.) They had dwelt with
great forte aed eloquence on the sni,e',ief ceineu
rate disputes caused, n oily to the interest of the
Cileres. aael the cause of religion, but to the advance-
ment of Corietiatiity itself. Iu the year 1834 Earl Grey's
Government proposed a [scheme for the abolition of
church rates, founded on this principle—that the sums
raised for the celebration of the services of the Church
should be abolished, and that the amount raised for the
main enence of the fabric of the Church should be made
a charge upon the laud tax—in other words, a charge
upon the Consolidated Fund. There were so many ob-
jections to that plan, that it did not receive the assent
of Parliament. In 1855 Sir R. Peens Government
brought in a bill for the settlement of the question ; but
that was not proceeded with in consequence of a chauee
of Government. In 1837 the Government of LerdMel -
bourne introduced a measure which also failed. The
proposition for making the rate a charge on the Cpnso-
lidated Fund, and the proposition for waking it a charge
on the revenue of the Church, had been alike rejected.
A great Lumber of compromises had been suggested; one
of them prOposed to exempt] large towns, and continue
the rate in rural parishes alone. Another scheme pro-
posed to exempt Dissenters; but, as their lordships were
aware, none of these schemes had been accented to.
There was one point on which be thought little or no
difference of opinion existed, and that was that the charge
for the celebration of the services might be advantage-
ously abolished. He thought that no churchman would
desire to retain that portion of the rate. (Hear.) But
even should that portion of the rate be abandoned the
question would not be settled, for the disputes respect-
ing the maintenance of the fabric would still continue,
an all the evils of litigation would still exist. (Hear.)
It was said there could be no doubt as to the justice of
the rate, inasmuch as the majority bad the right to tax
the minority. But that principle must be (meted out
with great caution. The imposition of a church rate was
a very different thing from the imposition of a gas rate or
a highway rate. If there was a legal right to compel the
people to pay for the support of the fabric of the church
all parties had a right to be accommodated in the church.
If the State, acting for the Church, had the right to tax
all the people for the Church it bad a duty to perform
in finding church accommodation. But it was notorious

. 63
48
.. -15

that the State could not perform that duty. The church
rate was totally inadequate for the purpose. There
were th ousands and thousands of people who could
find DO piece within the church, and therefore contended
that they were not bound to support the church. (Hear,
hear.) However the church rate might have been
suited to former times, it was not epplicable to the pre-
sent condition of society, and was every year producing
increasing discontent. The Dissenters had gone on
rapidly increasing during the last 150 years, and the
church rate bad educated them in hostility to the Church.
It was said that in the great majority of parishes-church
rates were etili levied, but this question must be viewed
in its bearing upon the whole population. It was idle to
take parishes with a limited population, and compare
thew with pariehes possessing an enormous amount of
population. The last.ceheus set forth the religious con-
dition of the people of thuecountry, showing a vast ennu-
i eation totally unconnected with the Church, erel a ay;
dab for whom the C tit:J.6.l4u erovision whatever.
71ri taws were coneuteratioris which ought to be well
weighed in dealing with this subject. The number of
churches was 14,000, while the number of dissenting
chapels was 20,000. These: dissenting chapels had been
built without any aid from the state, and they must re-
member that the Dissenters were the poorest class of the
community. There were many objections to a church
rate. First of all it was an odious tax, and the impesi-
tion of a rate was generally attended with agitation and
excitement. Put how far were church rate; necessary 'l'
Look at a district where no church rate had been levied
for a number of years, and ho would undertake to say
that in that district more had been done for the Church
than in these districts where the rate had been regularly
levied. He could give numerous instances of that, but
he wou'd give only one. linhad presented a petition on
this subject from Boston. The pstitionere said, that " In
Boston church rates have been refused for 20 years, but
that had not caused any difficulty in meeting the ex-
penses of conducting public worship in the town, but on
the contrary, those ex:demises 'have been cheerfully met
by subscrip ion, and your petitioners have great satisfac-
tion in stating that, whereas, during the time when
church rates were levied, extraordinary repairs of the
fabric of the church, though greatly needed, could not
be made, since the time the church rates had ceased to
be levied, extraordinary repairs hail been done to the
amount of 12,0001.., in addition to which two new
churches had been constructed in the parish on the
rehintary principle." (gear.) Again, look at what ha
been doe in Scot acid by the voluntary syst on. Since
the diquption and the establishment of the Free Church,
there had been raited in Scotland for the church the
large sum of 3,900,000/., or at the rate of 300,0001. a
year for thirteen years. Some time ago a committee
was appointed to consider the spiritual destitution of the
country, and what was the result ? That there were uo
adequate means of relieving thespiritaal destitution of the
couutry except by the voluntary principle. One great ob-
jection to this bill was that it would relieve the owners
of land from a charge With which they were now saddled.
Now the bill of 1834, the bill cf Lord Grey, relieved the
landowners, but said nothing about it. The noble lord
opposite spoke strongly in defence of the bid, and if he
were in want of arguments against church rates, he could
not do better than real the noble lore's speech. Bat he
did not wish to enter into a long argument about it, be-
cause he believed no one defended church rates, and that
the only ground of resisting their abolition was that there
were no other means of raising the money. He did net
believe that there would be any great difficulty in rural
parishes iu making a provision ter the maintenance of the
fabric by a charge upon the land. The only difficulty
that he felt was that they had gene too far to matte it
compulsory. As a voluntarycharge he believed it might
be raised. He conceived that in districts where church
rates had not been levied for years, the only thing was
to treat it as a bad debt, and strike it out of the account.
He knew objection would be made that there would be
some parishes where uo funds would be raised. There
would be oases of the kind no doubt at first, and that
might be a reason for saying that the bill should not come
into operation for sortie time, but that did not seem to
him any argument against the principle of the bill. But
it might be said that this was only the first of a series of
attacks that would be made upon the Church, but he
was not of that opinion. Though many who now sought
the repeal cf the church rates might, from their feelings
baying been aroused, be hostile to the Church now, he
believed that when tee cause of the agitation was re-
moved they would return to their good temper and good
sense. In 1834 there were a number of Dissenters of emi-
nence in the House of Commons, and they came forward
and stated the grievances to which they wished Parlia-
ment to apply a remedy, They required the abolition of
church rates, a registration of birth., that marriages by
civil contract should be legalised without the interteotion
of the Church, admission to the universities, and a sys-
tem of national education. They granted all these things,
though he did not say there had not been opposition
to them. What had been the result ? That the people fait
they had not been treated in a hostile spirit, but that
they had been dealt with with confidence, and that they
had the attachment of the people in return. There was
no occasion now for troops to defend the monarch when
he went into the city, and when the Queen was at Bir-
mingham the other day nothing could exceed the loyalty
of the people. (Hear.) He asked them to deal with this
question in the name spirit in which they had dealt with
the others he had named; there were other reasons why
be thought it desirable at the present moment that they
should settle this question. They were told on both sides
of the house that another reform bill was inevitable.
Now, the last reform bill gave great power to the Dis-
senters of this city. They were an active people ; they
had special influence in the constituencies, and they had
great power in commercial, manufacturing, and mineral
districts. No reform tell could be carried which would
not give great additional power to these populations.
Was it wise, then, to leave tbis question impending ?
Was it. wise, wuen they had all the commotion welch
must attend a reform bill, to have the animosity of a re-
ligious discuss:on mixed up with it? tie asked them,
then, to adopt the principle of this bill, bet tudeley the
period of its corning into operation in order to briefs; in
some bill whicbjwould enable landowners to charge their
laud with the maintenance of the fabric of tue Church.
Society had outgrown church rates. They must take the
voluntary system. He would read a few words of a
speech made in 1855 by Lord Stanley. Speaking of a
treasure then btfore the house he said, "Fair and equit-
able as the compromise might be in point of principle, it,
was encumbered and harrassed with so many practical
difficulties in the working as to make it difficult for it to
be carried in the Houso of Commons, and to make it quite
impossible for it to be successfully carried out. I had to
choose between two courses, supporting the law in its
actual state, or voting for its total repeal. I thought it
was a question net merely of policy, not merely of expe-
diency, but of justice and right, and therefore could have
no hesitation as to the course I should pursue. I am quite
a ware that in seine districts, especially in the rut al districte,
inconvenience would be caused far the time by the with-
holding from congregations of a compulsory legal sup-
port to which they are accustomed. I do not overlook
this objection, I do not underrate its importance, but the
inconvenience in question would be only temporary, and
I think it would be more than counterbalanced by the
termination of teat dissension which we have so long
witnessed in connection with this question, arid I think
that the change proposed is doubly important, not only
ou account of the intrinsic merits of the case, but be-
cause it will afford us the first practical experiment of
that principle of self-support in religious matters which,
whether we approve of' it or no, whether we think it the
best system or no, seems likely by the inevitable pro-
gross of public events to be the principle of the next ge-
neration." Thu their lordship would see what they
were.coming to. He trusted that these who opposed the
bill would not do so without stating some definite plan
by which they might settle this question. He did not
krow whether the prelates would like the measure. After
what took place last night he felt far them. (Laughter.)
He looked upon this a; a party question, and lie trusted
that their lordships would agree to the second reading.
Lord ST. LEONARDS said thenoble duke asked them
to settle this question, but his settlement was a receipt
without payment? What was the law I By the law of
England church rates were a charge upon the land of
England. They were voluntary, no doubt, in the first
instance; but, sanctioned by custom, they became biud-
ing as law. For centuries ce arch rates had Leen charged
upon the property of the country, and now they were
asked to go back to the voluntary principle. The rate
was levied exactly according to the feelinee of Erglisnc
b.
men, They had the amount within their own poehe
the application of it in their own hands. The u)., r, I
duke
suggested that by the repeal of the Mortmain Act power,
lauded interest should be enabled to charge their estates
with the amount now raised by the sitrc h
verso to
lle
looked upon the voluntary system as ad the
Established Church as it now stood. Where would
the stability if tithes be if any r ,reet-
church rates ? if the Pee-ensure f'. nod to tc tiny were
eerreee
f-I ,r, u ede they would speedily find out
Wilt it would be even inure convenient to be relieved
from the payment of tithes. The present agitation was
in point of fact a mere passing wine compared with that
which took place some years ago on the ,übject of tithes;
but a proper, compromise was entered into, and nothing
more had peen sail about the matter. He should say,
therefore, resist the present demand to the utmost ; but
he should be perfectly ready to agree to any tea,sonable
accsnnoiatiou. They were told that many Dissenters
would be willing to subscribe to the eustentation of the
churches if only rates were abolished. But what would
they say if a man who owed them money were to ask
theta to release him from their legal claim, and then tell
them that he would give them the money if they would
only leave it to his voluntary act. That would be a very
odd sort of request, but it was exactly what the advo•
cates of the bill were calling on their lordships to do.
There was a legal obligation upon the owners of pro-
perty to support the churches, and no man could fairly
object to discharge his legal obligations. (Hear, hear.)
They were told wnat great sums of money had been
raised by the Free Church of Scotland. But when
men's minds were roused, there was hardly any sacra-
fice that they would not make. They had also been
reminded that many churches had been built in Eng-
land on the voluntary system. No doubt the voluntary
system was an admirable one when it came in as an
auxiliary. (Hear.) Like God's own gracious gift, it
would under such circumstances supply that which
nothing else could do, but it would not suffice by itself.
As fur pew rents—(hear, hear)—he thought nothing
could be worse. (Cheers.) The proposal to relax the law
of mortmain did not seem to him to be feasible. Already
there was a charge upon land, which answered admir-
ably; but they were asked to abolish it in order that
landowners might have power given them to burden their
estates, if they plea-ed, with a rent charge for the repairs
of churches. But the fact was, if they attempted to put
such a charge upon their estates they would find them-
selves surrounded with difficulties. In the first place,
the Church-rate was a fluctuating sum ; but they could
not give a rent-charge upon their estates without fixing
the amount. It would moreover vastly increase the ex-
pense of transferring real estate, which it was so much the
object is the present day to diminish. He could net •

therefore, regard the proposal as any thingbuta vielotary
scheme. (Hear.) They were told that they must abolish
Church rates because they pressed upon the consciences of
dissenters. But he could not see what religion had to do
with the matter? He could not see how any consciens
tioua Scruple could arise out of having to discharge an
obligation, subject to which a man had purchased or
inherited his property. (Hear, bear.) .Again, as the
law stood the rector was bound to repair the chancel,
and the parishioners the body of the church. Did their
lordships propose to relieve themselves, ai.d to leave the
clergy still subject to the ancient liability which rested
upon them ? (Hear, hear.) He was quite willing to
atow that the dissenters had a grievance. Dissent was
allowed by law ; and it of course involved the finding
of places of worship other than the pariA etireh.
Dissent had thus a ten-l.-ti to , x .e, et, Lee.. is,..cn a
,r!iin , 1 Ore expense of seeping Up the churches; and
no thought, therefore, that the dissenters ought to be
released from the liability of having to pay Church-rates.
What, however, the noble duke asked them to do was
to abolish the rates altogether. But what right had
the dissenters to expect that ? (Hear.) The truth was
it was not a mere remedy of a grievance that was sought,
bat the damage cf the establishment, He (the noble
lord) was willing to relieve the dissenters, and he had no
wish whatever to degrade or offend them. He wished to
act fairly ; but no one who was excused from the obli-
gation to pay church rates had any right either to be a
churchwarden or to vote for the election of a church-
warden. (Hear,) That seemed to him to be no more
than just. He believed that the best and wisest of the
dissenters did not wish to see church rates abolished,
for they were in favour of an established church. In
fact, it was the establishment which formed the standard
of di: sent ; for if there was no national church where
would dissent be ? (Hear.) They were told that they
must not mark the disseutera ; but he had never known
a dissenter yet who wished to hide his belief, or who did
not rather glory in being a dissenter. (Hear.) He (the
noble lore') should certainly vote against the second
reading of the bill ; but he should be perfectly ready to
consider and agree to any fair and reasonable proposal
for the settlement of the question. (Hear.)
Lard WODEIIO USE denied that church rates was a
charge upon the law! of England. If they were he would
ask how came it tl-rat there sere souse 500 parishes in the
country in which these rates were not paid ? It was pot,
however, upon that ground that he supported the .bill,
but hecanse he believed the abolition of church rats.
would best serve the interests of the Church of England.
In practice he did not believe as much inconvenience
would result from the passing of the bill as its opponent.
argued, for a:ready in the great majority of the largest
towns in the country the repairs of the churches were
suet by a voluntary rate.
The Duke of MARLI3OROUGII said—lf the dissen-
ters were relieved from church rates, they ought not to
be allowed to vote against the imposition of a rate on
others, nor take part in the election of churchwardens.
The bill before the house violated the rights of the
Church.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE denied that church rates
was a question of the Established Church, for'many dis-
senters who objected to church rates were not hostile to
that establiehment. Ile was ready to maintain that ex-
aggerated arguments had been used on both sides. Rates
were opposed on the one hand as a question of religious
liberty, and on the other tide because its advocates be-
lieved that the abolition would be a violation of the law
of property. Whilst he maintained religious toleration
and supported it, in reference to the admissions of Jews
to Parliament, he considered the question of religions
feeling was not involved in the question of church rates.
A Dissenter had no more right to be an exemption from
the payment of church rates on religious grounds any
more than a Quaker bad to be exempted from the pay-
meat of taxis spent ia maintaining war, which he
honestly and conscieutiously believed to be wrong. He
did not believe that the, agitation for the abolition of the
church rates wise one for the abolition of the Church of
England. The parties felt this to be a grievance, and
were anxious to leave the question settled ; and he
thought it was the duty of the Church to meet them
in a conciliatory manner. (Hear.)
Lerd WENS:LE YDALE addressed their lordships on
the law relating to church rates, but in so low atone of
voice that he V/aR inaudible in the gallery.
The Earl of DERBY said she had looked with ROMA
curiosity to the votes to tee which of their lordships
would have the courage to offer to their lordships' ac-
ceptance a bill, the effect of which would be to deprive
the Church of England of that large amount of property
to which she was entitled, not by any law, but by pre-
scription older than law—to prevent the majority of in-
habitants of a parish from rating themselves for pur-
poses of great national, as well as great private and per-
sonal importance—and to place the Church of England,
with regard to the maintenance of her fabrics and support
of her worship, in a position each as she ought not to oc-
cupy. The noble duke had exhibited as much ability as
courage in undertaliing this hopeless task—(hear)—for
hopeless be trusted and confidently believed it would be to
seek to ieduce that house and the country, without com-
pensation or without equivalent, to deprive the church
of that which was essential to its maintenance, and its
indisputable right. (Hear, hear.) The announcement
in the pre:a:lloe of the bill was to the effect that whereas
church rates bad for some years ceased to be collected in
some partehes by reason of opposition, and that in other
parishes the attempt to enforce church rates had led to
dissension and ill-feeling—therefore be it enacted that
in the vast majority of parishes, where there had been
neither resistance nor opposition, nor ill-feeling, but
where tl.ere was a general readiness to levy and pay
church rates, it should not be lawful nor competent for
the inhabitants of those parishes to discharge that which
by law was a solemn obligation upon them. (Hear.)
This recital, without any argument, was almost a suffl•
cient reason why their lordships should refuse to enter-
tain the subject. It had been said that there was a
broad distinction between questions of church rate and
tithe, inasmuch as the tithe was a compulsory payment,
and church rates were nothing inure than a voluntary
impost. In prieciple be could see no distinction what-
ever between church rate and tithe—(hear)—with this
exception, that church rats was fluctuating in amount
and tithe was fixed. Tithe was recoverable by an easy
process of law, and there were great difficulties in en-
ferciug in the other case what was an indisputable obli-
gation. Lord Wensleydale had shown that church rate
was not a tax upon laud, but a personal obligation upon
every inhabitant, only to be enforced by reference to the
means which he possessed iu the parisb,—namely, the
laud. Therefore, though church rata was a tax in the
nature cf a personal obligation and a duty, yet, as much
as tithe, poor rate, cr any other rate whatever, it was a
charge upon the property of every individual in the
parish. (Hear.) It was a charge, moreover, which, when
they bought or sold a property, let it or took it upon
lease, they estimated and allowed for. (Hear, hear.)
A noble duke had referred to the purchase, some gene-
re, ions ago, by an ancestor of his, of the great tithes of
a parish, which were estimated at a certain price, but
were cold at something less, because, by virtue of his be-
coming proprietor cf the great tithes, be thereby became
lay-rector of the parish, and was liable to repair the
chancel of the church. Suppose tnat he had obtained
those tithes fur 2,000/. less than their value in consi-
deration that be would have to pay on the average 100/.
a year for the maintenance cf the chancel of the church ;
and suppose that the noble duke's ancestor had been a
dissenter, and had turned round and said, " It is against
my conscience to repair the chancel of the church: true
—I have obtained these tittles at a lower price in consi-
deration of my incurring this obligation, and Ido not
propose on conscientious grounds to
pay any more, but
I do propose on conscientious grounds to exempt myself
from the repair of the chancel, because I mu a dissen-
ter." (Rear, hear.) Such an argurneut would never have
been listened to either in law or iu practice. Though
church fates were fluctuating in amouut, they were cap-
aele cf belie, estimated—they were a distinct recognised
tax, which the Church of England as a body had a right
to receive on one hand, and which every landlord
throughout the country was bound to discharge and pay
a: a debt upon his estate, and from which be could not
escape by any plea of conscience. (Hear, hear) For his
own part, though he wished to look indulgently on the
ofscu,,laipmicsion n ho
odisstentsee claims of
of
always looked with very great
principle and conscience,
the result of which was to save their pockets. (Hear,
hear.) Rut circumstances had greatly altered, and
altered most unfavourably for the Church of England,
sines the first institution of this rate. In the first
instance the parochial system itself was complete
and entire ; and every person within the parish being
of one religious persuasion was compelled by an
obligation which was enforced by ecclesiastical autho-
rity, (in those days all-powerful) to cortrihnte his
due proportion for the, re; a r et. ..o.i t.eie. Letitia of
worship in, tlett clauen of which almost by necessity he
WWI a member, and with which he was connected in
every period of his He. Unfortunately, the populatiOu
in many parts of the country had greatly outgrown the
parochial system. The parish churches had been un-
equal to receive even that portion of the population
which mieht be estimated as likely to desire to attend
them. This inability had, no doubt, been one main
cause of propagation and extension of dissent. With
dissent came a separation from the services of the
church ; and partly from consideration for the feelings
of dissenters, partly influenced by other considerations,
the course of recent legislation had been very much to
break through that bond of union which, according to
the original system, subsisted between the church of eaoh
parish and its inhabitants. The church in its original
intention was connected with every individual,
.they re-
sorted there not only for purposes of weekly or daily
worship, but on three of the most important ()Wagons
in human existence. In the parish church, every indi-
vidual received the rites of baptism, entered into the
solemn obligations of matrimony, and received the rites
of sepulture according to the service of the church. As
dissent had increased, and the population had outgrown
the means of accommodation, receut legislation bad had
a tendency materially to dialimah the closeness of this
connection between the parishioners. The legislature
had recognised the claims of disseutere and had admitted
both baptism and marriage to be performed before civil
officers, or in places licensed for the celebration of those
rites. Partly on sanitary and partly On other con-
siderations, they had instituted cemeteries and public
o ses and
most thereby removing
one of th
called the
parish sacred ties which bound
bhteehen.) peopleenrHe closest
l t
did nett
of
for h
by
e
m
parish to the church. e—ear,
say that these Jaws bad not
public necessity ; sanitary considerations had rendered
it absolutely necessary that some such step should be
taken in large and populous parishes. But not the less
had the operation of these laws tended greatly to dis-
sociate the bulk of the public of the population from
church,
and
t consequently
o ilia
itnhcelipnaarhtiisonto contribute
of that church. He was far from saying that the law of
church rates was at present in a satisfactory condition.
Bat there was nothing in the world so clear and dis-
tinct as ',that the church had an indisputable right to
those rates, upon which rested an indisputable obliga-
tion capable Of Wing immured in money. This being