The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-30 00:00:00

T TIE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY. EVENEYG,

out 3 ny ee7clnson cn the score of religion, or in any
other way. The bill proposed to disfranchise the poor
freterut n, while they eft the noble lord who ob-
tained his seat in that house by their votes in
quiet / )ossession of it. Another member of that house
had op enly declared that he had taken part in those
acts of bribery, and yet no notice of that declaration
was tak en, while the whole weight of Parliament
was brosight down upon those poor freemen who
probably' in consequence of want had been induced to
accept a bribe. (Hear, hear.) He considered that no
arnendme.ets that could be introduced into the bill would
make its p rovieions consonant with justice.
Mr. CLITE, who has charge of the bill, said the hon
and learned. gentleman (Mr. Butt) had stated that if
they proceei led with the bill they would be involved in
manifest injustice and hopeless corruption. He (Mr.
Clive) oonstidered that if they did not proceed
they would encourage manifest bribery and corrup-
tion. With regard to the evidence taken before the
committee in reference to the bribery of these men, he
considered that it was the duty of the house to take
some notice of the report of the committee.
Mr. WALPOLE thought it was unjust to proceed
against some, while others were left untouched. The
Attorney-General for Ireland had given notice of
an amendment, dealing with the bribers as well as the
bribed. That proposition in itself would lead to very
long and very serious discussion, which he thought
they would not get through to-day. Another discus-
sion must be taken on the third reading, and he doubted
whether they would be able to get the bill in proper
shape into the House of Lords this session.
Mr. J.,D. FITZGERALD said that, as systematic
corruption and bribery on the part of the freemen of
Galway had been proved, the house ought to deal with
the question, notwithstanding the advanced period of
the session. He did not care which course was adopted,
either disfranchising the whole of the freemen, or only
disfranchising those who had been proved to have
given or received bribes, which was the arnmendment
of the Attorney-General for Ireland. Corruption
reigned in the whole body of freemen, and Parliament
would be trifling with the subject if it shirked the bill
now before the house. If this bill were dropped the
people would come to the conclusion that election com-
mittees were all humbug. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERESFORD HOPE was quite prepared to
admit that freemen in various parts of the country had
been subject to the gentle violence of the purse, but
thought that it was unfair to disfranchise a large body
of men in consequence of the malpractices of a few.
Mr. AYRTON had no hesitation in saying that this
bill proposed the most unhappy plan he had ever
witnessed for carrying out a measure of justice. He did
not think that, with the prospect of a measure of Parlia-
mentary Reform for next session, they should waste
public time now in a piece of exceptional legislation.
Mr. BENTINCK thought they could not proceed
with the bill without inflicting a great and glaring in-
justice. The zeal with which the hon. gentleman (Mr.
Clive) pressed on the bill would lead to the supposition
that he and his political friends had some ulterior object
beyond the punishment of these poor freemen.
Mr. KER SEYMER thought that bills founded upon
reports of committees should be taken up by the Govern.
ment, inasmuch as it wasnlmoet impossible for a private
member to carry through such a bill successfully. As
far as he was concerned, he should support the bill in its
integrity.
Mr. CONINGHAM considered that as the freemen
of Galway had proved themselves so corrupt, they ought
to be disfranchised in a body.
Mr. WHITESIDE thought that if proceedings were
taken the bribers as well as the bribed should be
punished. The bribers corrupted the virtue of these
poor fiesmen for their political ends, and were now will-
ing to destroy them. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COLLINS urged that if the freemen of Galway
were not to be punished, St. Albans had been improperly
puhished.
Mr. WARREN said that certain of the witnesses in
this commission had come forward and made a clean
breast upon the promise that they should not be
visited with any pains or penalties, and now it was
proposed to visit them with the very highest Parlia-
mentary penalties.
After some further discussion the committee divided—
For Mr. Butt's motion 9O
Against it lO7
Majority ---- 17
The motion was consequently lost.
On clause 1 being proceeded with,
Mr. WHITESIDE moved as an amendment to intro
duce the words "the voters who have been proved be
fore the said commissioners to have given or taken
bribes in the last or previous election." The effect
of the amendment was to confine the disfranchisement
to those who had been proved to have given or taken
bribes.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD opposed the amendmen'.
The bill did not propose to disfranchise individuals,
but the class among whim corruption had always pre-
vailed, and who had from time immemorial corrupted
the electors of the borough of Galway. In any measure
of this kind the innocent would of course sometimes
suffer with the guilty, but that would not be the ease to
any great extent in this instance, as the respectable
freemen would go upon the Parliamentary roll as house-
holders and leaseholders. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE said that if the committee rejected
the amendment, they would be hitting, not those who
were corrupting the others, but striking at the poor men
who were unable to defend themselves. There were no
grounds in morale, policy, or legislation to justify such
a course.

' recollected that there were several considerable items of
supply yet to be voted.
The motion was then agreed to. .
SMALL ARMS AND THE RIFLE.
Col. SYKES asked the Secretary of State for War
whether the experiments for testing the relative values of
the Enfield, W hitwortb, Jacobs' and other rifles, had been
continued since last session, and whether a report of the
results would be laid upon the table before the close of
the present session ; whether the iron cup at the bottom
of the Enfield rifle ball had been abandoned, and a
wcoien cup substituted, and whether the wooden cup
might not be dispensed with.
Gen. PEEL said there were two committees ap-
pointed, one called the small arms committee, which
had to test the merits of all descriptions of arms, and a
separate committee, which had to test the relative merits
of the Whitworth and the Enfield rifles. As regarded
the latter ccmmittee, a delay arose in consequence of
Mr. Whitworth not having furnished the number of
rifles that he was asked for last year. With respect to
the ammunition, he could assure the hon. and gallant
gentleman that there was no question of more import-
ance with reference to the efficiency of the Enfield rifle,
and upon the ammunition would ultimately depend the
real value of that rifle. The iron cup to which he al-
luded had already been done away with, but, at the
present moment, it was impossible to do away with the
wooden cup. Experiments were now going on, and he
had no doubt the result would be that the committee
would report in favour of the simple cartridge without
cup or plug. There was not the slightest doubt that in
some respects the Whitworth rifle was superior to the
Enfield, but whether it would be found superior in war
he could not say.
RETIREMENT OF BISHOPS.

Mr. J. S. WORTLEY asked the Secretary of State
for the Home Department whether it was in the contem-
plation of her Majesty's Government to introduce, during
the present or the next session of Parliament, any general
measure to facilitate the retirement of bishops disabled
by infirmity or old age.
Mr. WALPOLE said in the present session it was
certainly not the intention of her Majesty's Government
to introduce such a bill. As regarded the future, this
was one of the most difficult questions that Parliament
could have to deal with, and therefore he must decline to
give any pledge until he had turned the question over in
his mind, and considered whether or not anything could
be done in this matter.
THE CORPORATION OF LONDON.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would be glad if the right hon.
gentleman would tell them what course the Government
intended to pursue with regard to the bill relating to
the Corporation of the City of London.
Mr. WALPOLE said the right hon. gentleman would
remember that that was not strictly a Government
It was a bill introduced by the late Government. He
had given his best assistance with the view of putting it
into shape, and the other day he tried to get it into
committee, but unfortunately the attempt failed. He
must now frankly say that in the present state of the
session he saw hardly any prospect of the bill passing,
though he very much regretted the opposition which was
made to the motion for going into committee.
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY begged to ask the right hon.
gentleman whether he had not since the discussion to
which he had referred received from the Common Coun-
cil a communication, agreed to unanimously, praying
that the measure might be proceeded with.
Mr. WALPOLE said he had received such a com-
munication—whether it were unanimous or not he
could not tell—but within two hours after receiving
that communication he received another from the Livery
of London, praying that the bill might not be proceeded
with. (Laughter.)
AUSTRIA AND THE PORTE.

Mr. G. DUFF. a ked the Under-Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs whether her Majesty's Government
had been informed of, or believed in, the existence of any
agreement, written or verbal, between Austria and the
Porte, whereby the former Power eri,gaged to give assi4-
ance to the latter in case of au outbreak in European
Turkey,
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said the hon. gentleman had
put a very comprehensive, and, as he thong t, a very
unprecedented question to him, and he hoped he might,
without giving offence, Express a doubt whether any
advantage could be derived, either by that house or the
country, from putting questions of such a vague and
roving character, He could only say, in reply, that no
communication of the character described had been re-
ceived by Government, and the hon. gentleman would
pardon him if, in the absence of any facts, he refrained
fr fm expressing any belief on the subject.
Alderman CUBITT hoped the Secretary of State for
the Home Department would "go on with the Loudon
Corporation Bill. (Order.)
THE MANAGEMENT OF THE CROWN LANDS,
Mr. CAIRD rose to call the attention of the house to
the expenditure incurred by the Department r f Woods
and Forests on the Crown allotment of Hainault, and to
move that it is the opinion of this house that the costs of
management on the Crown allotment of Hainault, rinse
the date of the act under which it was disafforested, have
been excessive, and that the management generally has
not been satisfactory. The hon, gentleman stated that
last year the gross income from the Crown lands was
about 445,0001., and the surplus paid over to the Exche-
quer, after paying expeases, was 234,0001. The late Sec,
retary to the Treasury, in consequence of some (reserva-
tions made last year, submitted Lo the house a return of
the entire expenditure on the late forests of Hainault and
entire income from timber, and that return appeared to
him to form in a small compass a satisfactory exposition
of the principles adopted in the management of the Crown
estates. Hainault forest contained about 3,000 acres ; it
was about 10 miles from London, and it was formerly
mush resorted to by the inhabitants of London for re-
creation. It might be questioned whether any pecuniary
f ~,,,Iprat4 character could compensate
for the Ices of such a meano r. creation, anti f -nch an
open space of forest scenery. Previous to elide:we Lee
income from the forest was 5001. The matter was taken
in hand by the Woods and Foreste, and they had cleared
away the timber, dug up the land, and let it for farms,
and the gross revenue for 31 years on lease would be
4,240/. per annum. To obtain this, however, 57,000/,
had been expended ' • 'and if that sum bad been invested
at 5 per cent., and the 5001. previously derived from the
forest added to it, it would be found that in a pecuniary
point of view no advantage whatever had been derived
from the change. He thought a wiser selection of land
might have been made, for there were other tracts of
land, on which an expenditure, wisely laid oat, would
have proved advantageous. ,The act to disafforest
Hainault passed in 1351, and in 1852, of the 3,000
acres, 1873 were allotted in property to the Crown. In
addition to this the Crown got the timber on the remain-
ing 1,100 acres, which was worth 21,2721. Some years
ago three gentlemen were appointed to inquire into the
management of the royal forests, and they reported that
they entirely approved of the management, and they de-
precated the anxiety of the public for an immediate re-
turn, on the ground that the growing timber was coming
to maturity, and would when it reached that point give a
good return. They estimated its value at 6001. an acre.
Tuese forests had been growing to maturity for the last
800 years, and yet they were told by the gentlemen sent
down that if they waited 60 or 80 years longer they
would be found in full maturity. The same thing was
said to Nelson when he complained of the abort supply
of ship timber. They bad nom cut down one of these
ancient forests, and they had netted by the timber 261.
13e. par acre. Of the expenditure of 67,000/., 4,6741.
had been paid for the expenses of the commission, set-
tling compensation, police and law, and the hewing of
timber ; so that deducting this, the net expenditure on
the 1,900 acres allotted to the Crown was 62,9311., or
33/.23.6d.an acre. There was laid out on drainage 18,0001.
odd, or 101. an acre, which was an expenditure quite inade-
quate. It was said that they here limited to do the work
on short time, and that the roots of thetrees in the ground
afforded obstruction ; hut these works could only be
doae cheaper when done on a large scale, and there had
been previously expended 15,0001. in grubbing up the
roots. Se had no hesitation in sae iug that of the
101. an acre expended for drainage, an outlay of 6/. 10 e
an acre would have been sufficient, and therefore on this
item there bad been a loss of 6,4001. The farm buildings
coat 14,090/., but the buildings were ill finished, and
equal accommodation might have been procured for half
the money. On public roads there had been expended
5 2001, for 5A miles, and that was a good road, but there
were 11 miles of firm road through the fields which had
been constructed at an expense of upwards of 1,000/

Mr. W. WILLIAMS considered it most unjust that
the innocent should suffer. No doubt these freemen
who were innocent were tempted, and having resisted,
tilvy were puniohed. He could not affirm such a prim.
ciple.

Mr. STEUART thought that the bill shou:d not be
viewed as an attack on private rights, but one having
reference to the public good. He, therefore, could not
accede to the proposition which had been made by the
Government.
Mr. MAGUIRE complained that the chief instru-
ments in the corruption and debauchment of the poor
freemen of Galway were left unpunished by this
bill. The corrupt class were not the poor freemen
whom it was now proposed to disfranchise, but
the gentry of the town of Galway, many of whom
were miserable place hunters. and servile wretched
partisans. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) If this
bill passed, a large number of men who had resisted
corruption and remained pure would be punished by
disfranchisement, while the great culprits would go free.
He asked the committee not to do anything that day
which would give Ireland a new grief, or which would
convince them that there was one law for the poor.

Mr. COLLINS recommended that the freemen of

Galway should be disfranchised, and that a resolution
should then be passed, affirming that as the seat held in
the house for that borough was obtained by corrupt
means, it should be declared yam*.
Mr. WHITESIDE said the very object of the bill was,
by striking off the freemen to put the two seats for Gal-
way into the hands of the men who had been guilty of
corrupting the electors.

Lord I:SIINKELLIN defended the Marquis of Clan -
ricarde (his father), against certain attacks which had
been made against him, in connection with the late
election, when the noble lord (Dunkellin) was returned
for that borough. He denied that the effect of the bill
would be to make Galway a pocket borough.
Mr. MELLOR considered that according to PArlia-
caentary precedent they ought to proceed with this bill,
disfranchising a class that bad been proved essentially
corrupt.
Mr. AYRTON thought the bill in its whole concep-
tion was wrong, and that the penalties ought to be di-
rected against those who had set the corruption in mo-
tion. He then entered at some length upon the
course which had been adopted by Lord Clanricarde in
influencing the elections for the borough of Galway,
and contended that Parliament ought not to punish
those who had been corrupted, whne those who bad
been guilty of the demoralisation, the cause of all the
crime and wrong, were passed over without notice. He
objected to the measure altogether, and though he
opposed the bill as a whole, he was, under the circum-
stances, contented to accept the small modicum of justice
which the Attorney-General for Ireland proposed.
Mr. H. BERKELEY took a similar view of the case
and intimated his intention of supporting the amend-
ment of the Attorney-General for Ireland.
Mr. Burr supported the amendment oa the general
princip!e that the innocent shou'd no: be punished for
the guilty,

This road was not more than 10 feet wide, and there was
no cutting more than 3 feet deep, and the gravel was ob-
tained from an adjoining hill. Yet this road, which cost
one-Sfth a a modern railway, was so bad that the tenant
was obliged to put roots of trees on it to prevent the
carte sticking in the mud. For 4001., instead of 1,0001.,
an infinitely superior road cool 1 have been constructed.
Thera w.:s then 8 4001. for repairs of roads and fences,
8001. of which ought to have been included in the first
contract. The most startling charge of all was for sur-
veyor's commission and the superintending of the estate.
The (state was 1,900 acres, and the charge was 7,990'.

Air. Sergeant DEASY would not object to the amend-
ment of the Attoroey-GenT:ral it he would allow the
amendment, of wl:iela he had given notice, to be engrafted
on it, namely--" Provided always that this Act shall
not apply to any freeman who has obtained a certificate
from the Commissioners appointed under the said recited
Act of the ldth year a the reign of her M tjesty."
Mr. CLIVE characterised the opposition which had
been offered to his bill as a gigantic sham.
Mr. MAGUIRE, on the ocher hand, charge.' those
who supported the hill with lending their sanction to a
party scheme. Ho advised postponement till next
session.

for 31 years, or 11. 61. per acre per annual. Nor was
this all, for the surveyor was also receiver on the estate,
and had a commission on the receipts. The next charge
was 164/. 16g. ld. for commission on the sale of 1,9901.
worth of timber, or 8 per cent.; whilst the next charge,
for selling 1,8001. worth of timber, was 5 per cent. The
next item was 9181. for valuing the timber on the crown
allotment, and it was valued at 36,7901., and sold f
48,369/., or 12,0001. more than the surveyor's estimate.
But this was not the only charge en the timber on the
Crown land, for the next charge was 1,1821. for selling
the timber, so that the whole charge on this timbn was

The committee divided, when the number 3 were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The amendment was therefore carried.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.
Mr. WALPOLE said be could not ga on with this
bill to-day if it was opposed.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he should oppose every
lino of it. (Laughter.)
At ten minutes be:ore 4 o'clock the sitting was sus-
pended.
At six o'clock the house resumed.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.

2,100/. total charge on the land was nearly 8,000/.
for 31 yeard, but he would be bound to find competent
men wbo would do it for 5001. a-year He would nom
procaed to the second branch of hi 4 motion —the unsatis-
.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
"that upon Tuesday next, and upon every succeeding
Tuesday during the present session, 0-Jverninent orders
of the day shall have precedence of notices of motions."
The right hon. gentleman said he would not have made
this motion unleee he had felt that it was the general
-wish cf the house that the business shouid be expedited,

factory manner of letting, and the subsequent manage-
ment of the estate. I%;ere was evidently no plan
when the improvement commenced, fur it wag first pro-
posed to let the land fur grazing purposes, It WM clear

. .
that no one would offer much f,r the land for that pur-
pose, and accordingly the attempt to let the land f )r Ilia:
purpose was futi:e. They then determined to drain and

and he hardly knew any means by which the efforts Of
the Government to facilita!e the progress of public busi-
ness could be more effectually aided. Having examined
the notices of motions remaining on the_ book, it ap-

improve it, and, having done so, they let part a the land
for 31 years on lease, at 5 z. an acre for the first year, 10s.
for the second, year, and for the remainder of the term

23. and intere,t upon money laid cut by the Crown in
improvements. Tee next year they let the remainderat 9s.
the first year, 141. the second year, and 403. for the re-
mainder of the term. The land let on the second occasion

peered to him that there was no question which was
likely to be prejudiced by the adoptiun of his motion.
Mr. W. PATTEN wished to know whether the right
hon. gentleman 'imposed to continue the morning sittings?
Mr. Sergeant DEASY would like t) hear what mea-
sures the Government intended to proceed with, and
what messureo they inteuded to abandon.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Government eerta.nly meant to have recourse to morn-
ing sittings as much as possible. The Transfer of Land
(Ireland) Bill, the India Bill, and the Scotch Universi-
ties illwere measures with which the Government in-
tended to proceed, and he was not aware of any Govern-
ment
bill which was to be given up. It must be

wag, too, the worst part of the land, though it fetched
nearly double the rent, Immediately after the second
letting the tenant, who was a very sagacious man with a
large capital, determined to alter the intention which
existed when the land was ht to him, and turn stall into a

vast market gilder). The comminioLers assented to this,
but he did nut know whether when they assented they
knew that they undertook a great future responsibility.
A market gardener Lad clams for manure and other
things at the terminati ,n of the lease which sometimes
equalled the value of the fee simple. In addition, if the

land was fit for market gardens it was worth twice the
rent ; and if it was not fitted for that purpose the commis-
sioners should not have assented to its being devoted to it.
He believed the greater part of it was suited for market
gardens. There were similar circumstances connected
with the Crown lands, for he found upwards of 9/. an acre
was paid for draining purely agricultural land in Sussex.
Not only did this übiquitous surveyor manage all these
estates in all parts of the country, but be should say that
his income for the last year was not less than 10,0001. He
could trace payments to the ex`anat of 5,0001., and there
were sufficient other transactions shown in the report to
lead him to believe that the total sum realised by the
surveyor from the Woods and Forests Department was,
for last year, not much less than 10,0001. This gentle-
man, Mr. Clapham, was not a man of great reputation
and eminence, and one who had done good service to his
country. The commissioners themselves were probably
to blame, who, from want of practical knowledge
themselves, were obliged to lean for support on practi-
cal meo. The truth was that the management of the
Crown property devolved on an irresponsible agent.
They had a double government in this office as well as
i❑ Indian matters—there was the commissioners' office
and Mr. Clapham's. The civil list of her Majesty was
385,000/. a-year, and if they could increase the income
of the Crown lands 10 per cent. they would very nearly
balance the civil list, by the income from the Crown
lands. The Crown lands were in great part precisely of
that description which the great landholders had found
so profitable during the last 20 years, and a similar in-
crease in the value of Crown lauds might have been ob-
tained by better arrangement. (Hear.) He believed
that he bad shown that in the case of Hainault, which
was worth little more than the 150th part of the whole
royal estates, there was a wasteful expenditure of
21,000/. ; and secondly, that there had been an unwise
disposal of the property ; and having shown these two
things, he with confidence asked the house to agree to
his resolution.
Mr. LINDSAY seconded the motion.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said the resolution which
had been proposed embodied a condemnation of the
management of the office of Woods and Fore is in refe-
rence to this particular estate of Hainault, and the hon.
member also proposed by that resolution an express con-
demnation of a gentleman who, he must say, was one of
the most efficient and indefatigable officers in her Ma-
jesty's service. He would state to the house very,
shortly the circumstances of the case. The hon. mem-
ber began by stating that the resolution referred to the
forest of Hainault, whipfi comprised 3,000 acres, and
then he proceeded to speak of an expenditure as to the
Crown allotment of 1,900 acres. The fact was that the
forest cf Ilainault comprised an area of 17,500 acres. In
1851 an act was passed appointing commissioners, whose
functions were to superintend the letting and improving
of the forest. These commissioners took 1,900 acres in
full satisfaction of the Crown rights, except those rights
belonging to her Majesty as a commoner, including com-
pensation fsr the timber which was not allotted. Toe act
directed that the full expenses of thecornmissioners should
be defrayed by the Woods and Forests, who were to be
repaid out of the timber. The hon. member spoke of the
expenditure on this 1,900 acres, and set it down at
67,000/. ; but the fact was that the whole expenditure of
reclamation was 42,0151., the remainder being absorbed
by the commissioners and their functions. The 42,0151.
made just 211. 15s. au acre, and out of that 11,4151.
went for grubbing, which was very heavy in consequence
cf the ground being overrun with hornbeam. This came
to 61.45. the acre. Before the reclamatio❑ the land pro-
duced 5001. a-year, but since the reclamation it had been
let at 11 55. an acre, so that the expenditure of 11,415/.
had produced that rent. The expenditure wae for drain
age, 8/. 19e. the acre, which be admitted was heavy.
But the ground was full of tangled roots, and the tenant
was willing to pay 51. per cant. for the improvements—a
tolerable proof that the expense was not excessive. The
third expanse was for buildings, for which the tenant
paid Cl. per cent., and he had received a letter from the
tenant testifying to the success of the buildings and im-
provement; which he said had transformed this rough
laud into a valuable park. With respect to the payment
of the surveyors, 5,8881., of which the hon. member
complained, a great portion of it was for the disafforest-
ing, and the amount for reclamation was only 2,8851. It
was, in fact, only the ordinary charge of 5 per cent. The
property entrusted to the Woods and Forests amounted
to 300,0001. a-year, but of that 80,0001. was in fee farm,
and 90,000/. was ground rent on long leases, which could
not be interfered with. Under all the circumstances he
trusted that the house would not agree to emotion which
involved a censure on an important branch of the public
s r vice.

Sir J. SHELLEY eaid that in quoting the tenant's
testimony the Under-Secretary should recollect that he
had been only two years in the farm, and had lately
cime to the country. His experience, t'nerefore, cLi not
go for much. He also found fault with the old-fashioned
method of draining with wooden pipes.
Mr. HAMILTON—What he had said was that they
bad to drain through a wood, not with wooden pipes.
(A. laugh.)
Sir J. SHELLEY thought that the most convenient
plan would be to sell these small properties. (Hear.)
Sir J. TROLLOPE also thought that the better way
would have been to sell the land in small allotments.
He also was of opinion that the rate of drainage was
heavy, as in general 51. was the maximum rate, to which
11. might be added for clearing away the timber.
Mr. J. WILSON said that the land could not be sold,
because there was an act of Parliament to the contrary.
He contended that the money aid out on Hainault Fo-
rest had been a most profitable transaction, as for the
outlay they had obtained an irireased rental of 3,7001.
a year, which was as near as possible 9 per cent., on a
lease for 31 years. Great goad was done by bringing
these questions before the house, but he trusted the
hon. member would not press his motion to a division.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY disputed the calculation of
profit, as 5 per cent, must be allowed for interest on ca-
pital. The report of the commissioners appointed by Par-
! !ern -•n t ,•ho Teri that every possible abuse was comati.lei
in the inauagen. of LA.: C. o :cm irlfic, 1,1,1 thPrpfnrp it
was for the public advantage that questions lose Ulu pi,-
sent shonld be brought before the house. He hoped,
however, after the discussion that had taken place, the
hon. member would not think it necessary to insist on a
division.
Mr. CAIRD, in reply, reasserted that the whole ex-
pense he had mentioned applied to the 3,000 acres, but
whether 67,0001. or 42,000/. the house must agree that
it was a wasteful expenditure. That the drainage was
more difficult than usual was contradicted by the fact
that it had all been done by the steam plough, and the
same charge was made to Government for ordinary ag•
ricultural land in Sussex. However, he was satisfied
with the discussion he had obtained, and would not
press Ilia motion ton division.

ENDOWED SCHOOLS (IRELAND.)
Mr. KIRK rose to call the attention of the house to
the report of the committee of endowed schools in Ire-
land, and to urge the necessity of prompt remedies being,
applied to the evils and abuses which that report dis-
close. The hon. member entered into a historical retro-
spect of five large classes of schools in Ireland, referring
to the opinions expressed by the commissioners as to the
manner in which they had been conducted from the
period of their several foundations, and the perversiou
irorn their intended use of much of the property left to
them. In 1695 the 7th of William 111. was passed, de-
claring that no person of the Popish religion should
teach in any of the schools in Ireland. This act con-
tinued in force for 86 years, and was repealed at the in-
stance of no less a person than Howard the philan-
thropist. After the lapse of time, Sir R. Peel appointed
the Clare-street commissioners for educational purposes.
In 1818, Mr. Grant, afterwards Lord Glenelg, obtained
a grant for these schools, and at the same time bore
down many of those barriers which interfered with the
freedom of religious instruction in Ireland. The House
of Commons, in 1824, issued a commission to consider
the subject, whose report was referred to a select corn-
mittee, whose ultimate decision formed the basis of the
system of national education in Ireland. In 1835 Mr.
Wise's committee led to the establishment of the Queen's
Colleges. The hon. member then gave a summary
of the operation of these five classes of schools, and the
value of the lands held by the various societies. For 300
years these schools had ergaged the attention of the
Legislature, but they had not thriven owing to the want
of proper management. The hon. member then caul-
pared the amount of annual income derived 4 by these
schools with the extant of education provided, showing
that the poor had not derived the benefits of which it
was intended they should be the r,cieints. The evil lay
in the constitution of the various boards of management,
the members being virtually self-elected, and by rea-
son a their other weighty avocations as dignitaries
in the's Church and judges.--a the land, not eligible"
for the post which they filled. There was almost
a total absence of any system of audit in
these schools. Oae of these persons acting in the capa-
city of auditor declared to the commissioners that he did
not know the meaning of the word "assets." (. laugh.)
The hon. member then glanced at the national school
system in Ireland, contending that it had worked ad-
mirably, and that it was the only one which could take
root in that country. He altogether denied that the
schools falling under the appellation of "national" were
liable to the epithet of godless. It was not true that
the Bible was excluded from these schools. It was
simply optional with the parents of children whether
they should receive a purely secular or a mixed religious
and secular education. He hoped that the national
system would be retained in all its integrity, although
he deplored the circumstance that an inevitable conse-
quence of the system was materially to limit the teach-
ing of the classics or the inculcation of science among
the poor cf Ireland. He thought the time for interfe-
rence on the part of the Government had arrived,
although he was prepared himself to suggest a remedy.
The course he would recommend would be the appoint-
ment of a board in Dublin, in whom should be vested

the sole czntrol over the property of the e schools, and
to whose deliberation no ex-officio del.beration should

be eligible. The middle classes of Leland had strong
claims upon the Government, fur the old schools open
to them had been knocked up by the natiotal system of
education. Prompt action was required in the matter,
and thercf ,re these endowed echo Ai ought to be made
available as soon as possible for the education t.f the
middle ult,ses of Ireland. (Hear.) Toe ho,t. member
concluded by moving that in the opinion of the house a
remedy ought to be applied to the evils pointed out iu
the report of the endowed school commissioners of Ire-
land.

L,ird NA AS readily admitted that it was scarcely
possible to introduce a question more worthy the atten-
tion of the house. There could be no doubt that the
position of intermediate education in Ireland wa3 in a

;304 unsatLfactory state ; and on that account it was

that a commission was appointed by the late Govern-
ment, in order to invest.gate the subject. The commis.
sioners laid before Parliament a most voluminous report,
and that report disclosed a moat extraordinary state of
things with regard to these endowments. The commis-

sioners applied their minds with great energy to the
subject, and it was quite certain that they had published

JUNE

q 59
)

• - a most valuable and interesting report ; at the same 1 less than 400 ware in the county _Onven, where the so-
time, it was equally true that when they came to the I ciety chiefly flourished. All but ten were in the pro-
consideration of a remedy for the evils which they de- vines of Ulster. In county Down there was one case of
scribed, the commissioners were not so successful, murder, 32 of violence, ono of manslaughter, and one
The feet was, the greatest difficulty surrounded the which might, according to circurnstancee, be murder or
I
question, in consequence of the variety of opinions manslaughter. He moved for an account of the number of
which prevailed with regard to the system of educe,- canes since he left office. From the return of Mr. Maxwell
tion to be adopted in thew) schools. The majority he found that within a short time there were 55 cases of a
of the commissioners were in favour of the mixed serious character tried at the assizes, of which all but
system of education ; but Mr. Stephens, who re- eleven arose from Protestant processions, and three
presented the Church of England on the corn- from Catholic processions. Before 1845 there were nu-
mission, and Mr. Hughes, who represented the views merous cases, showing that law was defied and justice
of a largo party of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, defeated where this society was in force. The funds of
were entirely opposed to such a principle of educe- the society were applied to defend Orangemen who had
cation, and declared its application impossible to the en- been guilty of serious crimes. He would refer to the en-
dowed schools. It was obviously impossible, therefore, try of the expenditure of the Orange lodges before 1836,
that in the short time that remained of the session the for he could not produce that since 1b36, as it-was a
Government could make up its mind as to the manner in secret society. (Hear.) He referred to the evidence be-
which the difficulty ought to be solved. The difficulties fore the committee for cases of money being given to de-
which beset the question were very great, and it must fend persons charged with murder, in ewe case after con-
be apparent that the Government could only arrive at a viction. The same thing was done in England ;in one
remedy for an evil of such magnitude after the greatest case 2001. having been voted fur the defence of persons
consideration. However, he could promise the house charged with serious infraction of the law. In one case
that during the recess the subject would occupy a large also, the Scotch committee had given 641. to defend a
portion of the time of the Irish Government. Indeed, brother "in trouble"---in trouble because he bad tour-
his noble friend the Lord-Lieutenant bad already given dered a policeman. (Oh, oh.) Mr. Bridge, a member of
much of his attention to the question, and had perused an Orange lodge, refused to give a character to a man
the whole of the voluminous report of the commissioners because he was a bad character. He was subsequently
Mr. GREER bad hoped for a more explicit statement convicted of murder, and Mr. Bridge was so persecuted
of the intentions of the present Government ;he thought for not giving him a character, that he was obliged to
they ought to have made up their minds as to the prin- leave the neighbourhood in which he resided.
ciple of the measure which they intended to introduce I The CETANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER--Date?
next year. He must declare the country was greatly Mr. FITZGERALD-1827.
indebted to the honourable member for Newry for in- The Chancellor laughed. (Immense cheering and
troducing this subject to the notice of the house, laughter from the Ministerial side.)
Mr. GROGAN was also of opinion that the hon. Mr. FITZGERALD continued—He did not see what
gentleman had done good service in calling attention to there was to excite the laughter of the leader of that house
the subject ; and he was happy to hear that the serious in the fact that these things occurred in 1827--(bear)—or
consideration of the Government was to be directed to that the mention of the circumstance was absurd because
grappling with it ; for a more important question could lit occurred, in 1837. He was confining himself to the
not occupy the attention of any Government. At the question of criminal- justice, because the question he was
same time he must thus early enter his protest against bringing forward related only to the administration of
any justice. He alleged that though formally die-
any principle of education being applied to these schools solved in 183 G, the society had existed up to this day.
which was based upon the exclusion of the Bible.. Under a travelling warrant, grnted in 1836, the societ Mr. LEFROY was rejoiced to hear the announcement had been established in Canada,a and he produced a Canaday made by his noble friend, that the report of the commis- paper of the present year, in which there was a petition
sioners was to occupy the attention of the Government against the admission of members of the Orange body to
during the recess. At the same time he deeply regretted the Legislature and against promoting secret societies. The
that the honourable member for Newry (Mr. Kirk) had petition was not received from want of form. In that
deemed it his duty to make an attack upon the system petition it was said that unless their prayer was granted,
of education adopted by the Church Education Society. and ptrait itotiii earl sbwould bhea
..dtiven to arms in self-defence,
Mr. DOBBS thought that the people of the north of hers of a secret. society tout;
had
trocopm4Tera TccoknetTeltinheenthoooiuln--
Ireland were especially indebted to the hon. member nocent and acquitting the guilty. The Orangemen had as-
for Newry, for bringing forward the question. He sembled in Canada in large numbers under that same Ogle
should give his most cordial support to the motion. Gowan, who received the warrant in 1836 to establish the
Mr. HASSARD said that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Orange lodge there, and who was a clergyman of very bad
Letroy), in showing the tffscte of the national school,, character indeed. He had received a communication to the
bad stated that they would destroy the middle schools, effect that Mr. Cecil Moore was not a member, but he found
and that the Queen's Colleges would be the only places his name in the report of Enniskillen, as " A.D.G.5.,"
which he road as " Assistant-Deputy Grand Secretary,"
in which education for the middle classes could be ob•
bmalrieuvedifth,taftoowreas -(t(rh, correcto)t mweaasn
no
ontatntedr his
very tained. He believed the middle schools of Ireland were androt he
er
very efficient, and one, of which he had some know. derision. In 1855 they were found in other offices, and
ledge, that of Waterford, was very ably conducted by a again in 1353. In 1857 Mr. C. Moore appeared as " G. 5.,"
clergyman of the Church of England, but the religious which he interpreted as " Grand Secretary." He had not
views of the people were not interfered with. a word to say against Mr. Moore personally. On the con-
Mr. KIRK admitted that in some of the large towns trary, he believed him, from report, to bo fully qualified,
there were good schools of the class epoken of, and it and the only objection to him was that he was a member
was only because he did not wish to waste the tints of of the society. He di i not wish to do him any injury. The
the house that he dil not enumerate them, office of sessional Crown prosecutor was not one with a
largo salary, but the duties were of great importance, and
Tee motion was then withdrawn.
though the sessions could not deal with cases of a capital
ORANGE LODGES, IRELAND. nature, yet, from the speedy and cheap administration of
Mt. J. D. FITZGERALD rose to call attention to justice, the cases were becoming more important, and the
the Address of the House of Commons to his late Ma- Crown prosecutor had the whole conduct of prosecutiners
jesty King William IV., of the 24th day of February, end the power of the Attorney-General in excluding jury-
-1836, and his Majesty's gracious answer thereto, and to men. He din not believe that Mr. Moore would even for
the recent appointment of Mr. Cecil Moore, grand se- his society violate his duty, but it would create well•
founded jealousy. Mr. Fitzgerald asked whether Lord C.
cretary of the Tyrone Orange. Lodge, to the office of
sessional Crown prosecutor of the county of Tyrone, and dHuaemteidltotno
theira ftihraensooemLaLieotrd Cd.eeHoraamteidltownitwbheom7lsemins:
to move "That in the opinion of this house the appoint- and chaired througlithe towny in 1835? He quoted Lord
went to offices connected with the administration of the Caledon's decimation that Lord Claude Hamilton had, by
criminal law of members of the Orange Confederation, his share in the Orange proceedinge given him great
or of any other political Confederation founded on trouble. At that time a police-officer was shot at, and
principles of religious exclusion, inculcating secrecy a gentleman holding an important office found a threat-
en its members, and acting by means of delegates ening notice in his prayer-book, and was fired at, a few
or representatives, and of affiliated branches, tends days after. The appointment was defended on the
to create well-founded jealousy and suspicion highly ground that Mr. Moore had ceased to be a member of the
society, and that a memorial in his favour had been signed
detrimental to the ends of ju.tice, and ought to be die-
.ceiantohnoglisot othersbisho by alß,hoermeainnCdatheeonlicapnriaesssterartldrna
that
couraged." Be said tho motion was one of great prac-
final importance, affecting the welfare of the country, (Mr. Fitzgeral4 when in office, had given an appointment
and he regretted that he should have to bring it on at so to a person who had been one of the leading rebels in
late an hour, and to abridge the observations he should 1848, but that was wholly untrue. (Hear, hear.) He knew
have to make. In 1835 and 1836 the subject occupied that the course he was taking was likely to expose him to
the attention of the house, when a select committee was enmity, especially in Ireland, but he could not help that.
appointed, the results of which showed that a state of He could only express his feelings in the words of the too-
things existed highly dangerous to the community. The tion which he there repeated. He quoted a declaration of
committee proved that there existed a c wifederation the Downshire Protestant, an organ of the Orange lodges,
bound by secret tests, num ering in Ireland 225,000, in that if Lord Derby's Government did not support the
E island 14,500, and in Scotland an unascertained societyt they. wouldi not be supported by the Protestaint ..con-
number, and from the wilds of Car.ada to the Straits of esiaio.euefrnocmies
tiiatelir.ea Ireland. Iletii
et hue, nra
mpfsoscieo ,ndeerds
otno
traßaellLass;
Malacca there existed this Orange confederation all riots ; and he concludedp amidst loud applause from the
bound by the .will of one man, the grand master, the Opposition.
object of which was political, controlling the Parliament ,'The O'DONOGHOE seconded the resolution.
and the executive, and that under the cloak of religion o Mr. WHITESIDE said that great questir ns awaited. the
—that it perverted the course oft US tiOS—intruded itself decision of the house, und the hon. gentleman had wasted
on the bench, and divided the people into two great re- his time, not in endeavouring to compose dissensions, but
i
ligious parties, which rendered amalgamation impossible. in reviving forgotten calumny and restoring disagreeable
In 1836 it was pointed out that it always embraced subjects by by strayt paragraphstbn facts,
ntehttoticiphapheirss iton i
I reixe e-
aesoeg its members men of high character and honour,
PwasUspicycpaonrdessaurpcapsotic'. (fleaor.) What hadg Governmenteguc
but eurertaining designs at which every one must shod- done ? What were the facts ? That a.n honest, competent,
house at any length to what took
der. He did not intend calling the attention of the and respectable man had been appointed to a place of 1401.
place on that occa- a
-year, for which he was admitted to bo competent. He
sion, but it had been said that at that time it was an did not deny that there were abuses of patronage. Ho had
illegal body, but that under its new organisatiou it was seen men in office who deserved to be hanged. (Laughter.)
on a different footing—that now it was perfectly legal. He had known merlon the Treasury Bench who wore a dis-
When the question was formerly under the consideration honour to their country, who would corrupt any assembly,
of the house, the Roble lord the present member for the and would have destroyed the liberties of their native land.
city of London reins, keel that these societies invariably d lauehter )
Waher(t)urlaamillair terittetre'n"tltaneonamoef,hrisenaeswweniation and
produced a perpetual source of quarrelling and insub-
had descyribel their services to the country. 'Many painful:
ordination, and that they generated party feelings stories might be told of the history of either country ; but
which were most disastrous to the welfare of the it was not the duty of a patriot to revive painful associa-
people, and obstructive of the pure stream of us- tions. The attack was made on the Orange Association, as if
tice. He should attempt to show that if the the Government had taken the Orange Association under
Orange Confederacy was illegal and pernicious, its wing. There had been an inquiry in le3o, and it was di.
in 1836, it had not hest that character now, and that the rented that the Orange Society ought to cease, as the occa-
remerke which were made in reference to it then were sion for it was at an end. Everyone spoke moderately, and
Mr. O'Connell said the time was come when party strife
1-i•, to ie., I eee l t , i', :., t'i-' nr•Pent t'he". That what
of wee]
LL. a, 1,-,1.1 t,,, "t, ,bn pod. The resolutions were
,levelled against
Sir R. Peel, in 1b35, termed ti;wger0u.i.t0r.,,C...,..... .s ct c ! '
c.,,EdL, :1‘,., :Alla At i4,1k1 th tk .11C t'.! ,i'.l-!,,,-1
so still, and though he did not ask that they should be sit bsocieties was an evidence' of something wrong in tee ouay
put down by force of law, he should press upon the
politic. But he was a inded man who, in cnsi-
house that her Majesty's Government should not give
tiering questions respecting suchnarrow-m a society, did not i eflecot on
any encouragement to their members. He had stated the history of the country and the time when it flourished,
in his resolution that be would call attention to the and on the circumstances which brought it originally into
address of the house to King William IV., of Fab. 24, existence. These men were then called upon to dissolve,
1830, and he should ask the house to pass a resolution and did so ; now, for the first time, hypocrisy had been
in accordance with the pledge which was given in 1830 charged against them. Their books were scattered, and he
was at a loss to know how the book thei right hon. gentle-
confederation should be abolished in Great Britain and tinerthhaodi quoted from had
fagioltedi nttoo
stateiis
why possession.
the
society
been the colonies—a pledge which he might remark had never
had beenLregoergearised, a circumstance he (Mr. Whiteside)
bean carried out. That was the case he could prove by very much regretted. The society being at an end, Mr.
an Orange warrant leaned on the 19,.1i of May in Louth, O'Connell predicted halcyon days for Ireland, and the
Ireland, some months after the pledge given by the Duke Protestants of Ireland were ready to believe in it, but the
of Cumberland that there should be a dissolution of the true history of the country for the eight subsequent years
confederation, which had been condemned by the house were to be found in the statute-book. The year befoul
as dangerous to the welfare of the country. (Heal%) He the reorganisation of the society Ireland was in a lawless
held in his band an extraordinary document, namely, the state, and the crime of Ireland had doubled in enormity
records of the Orange lodge of Donegal, containing en- that of the previous year. With regard to the political
tries from 1813 to 1823. This contained an entry, which chalgeile woulodr not charge h 9. O'Coinnr,,ielml withan befrrpoomcr ibsyi.s,
stated that in consequence of a statute in opposition to
countrymen dissimulation,by adoptingopaecooursgeaill disapproved of, but
illegal oaths, this society was abolished ; but eight days he was inclined to believe that Mr. O'Connell intended by
afterwards it was reorganised, all the change being that his course of action to regenerate his country. It was a
that part of the rules requiring the taking of an oath was manly policy, but how did he carry it out? Why, by
struck out. The committee of 1835, appointed to inquire agitation in order to separate England from Ireland ; and
into the lodges in Ireland, did not report, but pridted to frustrate his scheme this society was reorganised for the
their evidence. The committee appointed for England support of the Protestant religion, the upholding of the
did make' a valuable report, to which he should have monarchy, maintaining the Union, and tile British power
in Ireland. (Hoar.) At that time the people of Ireland
alluded, had it not been for the lateness of the hour. He
might say, however, that this report contained the most believed Mr. O'Connell intended to effect what ho wag-
alarming statements as to the result of the Orange asso- gested; but he need not inform the house how much thepeople of Ireland were disappointed in the result. The
ciations, and when it was known that similar associa-
organisation of the society took place at a time that justi-
tions existed now, be thought too much importance fled it. Clubs at that time wore to be formed of ZOO men
could not be directed to the subject. [The hon. and each, and each man was to be armed ; and when 300,000
learned gentleman read extracts from the report, with a men were so enrolled they were to act ; and it was to meet
view to show the religious animosities which it was the that organisation that the Orange societies were reorga-
tendency of the confederation to keep up.] In that re- flinch (Hear.) At the time of the reorganisation, how-
port ho contended there wee a full justification for every ever, no oath, test, or secrecy was observed. The meetings
charge which he should allege against the confederation, were open to the police, and the only object tho Ministers
had was to preserve order and the supremacy of the Crown
In 1836 a regulation was put in force in accordance with
i and tho Protestant religion in that country. The late Go-
which every man who was appointed a stipeudary magic- verninent, however, sanctioned its reorganisatirn by allow-
trate was compelled to take an oath, one part of which ing 600/. worth of guns being received by the members to
stated that during the time he held offica he would not defend the Union, the monarchy, and the Protestant reli-
belong to any secret political society. That remained gion against the contemplated attack of that day. (Hear.)
the law up to the present time, and he now sought to It was such motions as these that inflamed resentments
apply it to those who had the administration of the that ought to be forgotten in Ireland, and he denied that
higher departments of criminal justice. It will be re- the province of Ulster was in the state it had been de-
membered that last year there were serious riots in picted by the right hon. gentleman. Thera had been riots
in Belfast, but they had been put down successfully, and
Belfast, in reference to which a commission of inquiry
was sent out. Before there commissioners Lord Bettis-
submit
was secure and was as high in value there as in
n other of Irelan. as ere such a rievance
kitten appeared for examination, and ho then produced ed to part
the Housed of CWommonsth ever
as the onegthat had
the records of the society, remarking that the society been submitted by the right hon. gentleman, viz , that of
bad now nothipg to conceal. He (Ur. Fitzgerald) had his (Mr. Whiteside) having appointed this gentleman to
compared the rules of 1824, 1836, 1845, and he defied the office of sessional Crown prosecutor, on the recommen-
any one to prove that there was any essential difference dation of men of position in the country, as a man of most
between them. (Hear, hear.) Hr found in the recital respectable character, and fully qualified for the discharge
of the objects of the institution that it was founded for of the duties ; and when the late Crown Solicitor was in-
the establishment of her Majesty's succession, the de-
disposed, he was obliged to find a substitute, and the sub.
fence of their property, and the defence of the religion stitute,tt approved of by the right hon. gentleman the late
of the Reformation, as well as to su the glorious
Ao rney-Geueral for Ireland (Mr. Fitzgerald), was then
pp ort
Mr. Cecil Moore. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman
memory of King William, and the peace and prosperity referred to a memorial he had received from the deputy-
of the country. But when they said this they violated lieutenants, magistrates, gentry, and clergy of Tyrone,
all their principles, for the glorious memory of King testifying their hearty approval of the selection of Mr.
Williatn they might all now join in perpetuating. (Loud Moore for the office of sessional Crown prosecutor.
chews.) But this Orange association had done every- Amongst the memorialists were four Roman Catholic
thing they could to violate the principles of King priests, and many dissenting persons. (Hear.) And of
William, and bad ever proved themselves the ob- nineteen or twenty attorneys in the county, ssixteen or
seventeen of them had testified to the excellency cf the
structors of national liberty. (Oh, oh, and hear, hear )
h But these resolutions were hypocritical pretences. If
YepciolMoore held officatment. (Hear, hear,)
hear.) He was not aware Mr,
in the Orange Association ahem he
hon. gentlemen had any doubt about this, if they had
appointed him to office. He ha I held it during the time
any doubt that the object of the association was to in- tho late Ministry were in office, but he hail since resigned
butt those who differed from them, he would- hand them it, and therefore the resolution proposed to affirm what
the last song bOok of the association. (Laughter and did not exist, and he (Mr. Whiteside) was informed that
loud cries of "Sing, sing." A voice : "He does sing ; for a year and a half Mr. C. Moore had not joined in
he intones.') The right hon. gentleman then read the friendly mectieg with the Orangemen in the county
rules and prayers of • the association, in the latter of in which he lived. (Hear,
Lunt was correct and proper. He and hear.) That would ,be
which they thanked God for protecting the country from an illiberal, intolerant,
of the
,mistaken Government
Romish treachery. These resolutions reminded him of that did not availitself services of every
those of the Massachuvett Puritans, which were :—" 1.
private and public cw-i
man, whatever were his political opinions, if his
The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof. 2. The
never inquired into the political opinions of his subordi-
Lord bath given the earth as an inheritance to his saints. nates, and only interfered in reference to the qualifications
3. We are his saints." (Laughter.) That the Orange and anew; of the man for the office he aspired to fill.
c inferieraey was a secret society was Flan) from the fact (Hear, bear.) He bad never complained of the appoint-
that up to recent dates members had been iguominioutly moots of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Fitzgerald) of
expelled far divulging the secrets of the order. What Roman Catholics to public offices, but one Protestant
the secrets of the order wero he protested he could not official that he (Mr. Whiteside) had appointed had been
understand, although he did not believe the absurdity made the sub joe;tthoef ivimoprietachrnent. (Cheers.) This motion
I:tepeencief,sorloptteernsecuiNtifornfajneilipoorarc-
that there were no secrets to be divulged. There were ticsas a
thatrevival
ought to have'
also expulsions for marrying Papists, and of these cases when he beard of the motion, tendered his. resignation, buei
he found 40 or 50 on the records before him. (Cries of he (Mr. Whiteside) declined to accept it, and he was sure
"Oh, oh," and groans.) He proceeded to quote in- the house would 'support him in that determination.
stances cif members of the Orange Lodge being excluded (Hear, hear.) It was neither wise, politic, nor just to
for divulging secrets. It had been laid dawn that no bring forward such a motion as this, and on such grounds,
one could be in the Queen's service, not even as a com• and ire expressed a hope that before long he should see the
mob soldier in the army, who belonged to the society ; people of Ireland a unites, happy, contented, and free
and he defied any one to show the difference between people, casting from thent the rag of ancient prejudice, and
the old Orange institution and the newly organised so- pressing on with that high emulation which became a
cisty. He called on the house to discourage such so-
cw‘tse,peful, and a happy people. (Cheers, and (fries of
cieties ; for, much as Orangemen might lore their Divide.
)
society or their country, they loved place better. His
to make a personal explanation as to Mr. FITZGERALD, amid loud cries of "Divide," rose
attention was directed last year to this association, and
he found that in six ears there were no less than 433
the sessional Crown proeeeutor, which ho stated had not
cases of offences arising
made him. If the ght hon. gentleman had
yg
from Orange processions, ancino 1 b etateth to iliby
lli that Mr.. Cecil ri
Moore bwl coated to In a

member of the confederation, he wculd not have made this
motion. (Hoer, hear, and oh, oh.)
Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said a few words in
explanation of the appointment of the sessional Crown
prosecutor.
Lord PALMERSTON could not allow the debate to
close without expressing the pain he felt at this apparent
revival of animosities connected with a state of things
which they had hoped had altogether ceased, or was fast
The right hon. and learned
dying out. (Hear, hear.)
gentleman had stated that Mr. Cecil -Moore had resigned
the prominent office he formerly held in the association in
question, end, if he understood him correctly, they might
hope that the influence of the Government would be used
to induce those who were connected with such associations
to consider, with them, that the time was past when they
were necessity or could bo justified. (Hear.) If the house
should be of opinion that from that intimation of the right
hon. and learned gentleman there was a prospect that those
ancient feuds and differences which in times past had
caused so much disturbance and injury, and had so mate-
rially interfered with the progress and prosperity of Ire-
land, would, so far as the influence of the Government was
concerned, be discouraged and put an end to, he hoped
that no division would be taken upon the resolution
brought forward by his right hon. and learned friend—
(oh, oh, and cheere)—or that they would, by recording
what might be regarded as a triumph by the one party or
the other, do anything that might by poseibility encourage
those differences or interfere with that harmony which it
was to be coped was now in course of being established.
(Cries of " withdraw, ' and "divide.")
Lord J. RUSSELL considered that there was more in-
volved in the discussion than the mere personal question.
Having heard the statement of the right hon. and learned
gentleman as to the opinion of Protestants and Roman
Catholics in favour of Mr. C. Moore's fitness for the office
he thought he had done right in not acsepting that gentle.
man's resignation. With regard to what had occurred in
1836—(0h, oh)--he might mention that there had been in
the previous year an inquiry which justified the house in
the strong proceeding it then took. He (Lord J. Russell)
endeavoured to interpose, and was fortunate enough to
induce Lord Stanley (the present Earl of Derby), the late
Sir R.lPeel, and the late Mr. O'Connell, to unite in a gene-
ral resolution condemning secret societies generally—to
which Mr. O'Connell agreed, on condition that Orange
societies shou:d be included. The committee no doubt
thought'all such societies were most objectionable, as the
one necessarily encouraged the prcmotion of another of an
opposite kind to counteract its influence, and thus the
difficulties of Government were increased. He would usk
the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary whether he
thought it desirable now to overturn and repudiate that
resolution of 1836 ? Was the Government or the house
prepared to say that, whether as regarded Roman Catho-
lic. or Pwtestants, it was desirable to encourage them by
appointing to office men who wore connected with exclu-
sive religious societies, which had branch societies affiliated
with them in different parts of the country? And yet if
they passed a simple negative of this motion such would be
the effect. (Hear.) He would not say how they might es-
cape that difficulty, but it appeared to him that it would
be more advisable if they wereto adopt some plan by which
a decision might be avoided. (Rear, and oh.) It was the
interest of every government that such societies should not
exist in that, though they might have been justified in the
first instance— though they might have been called into life
by some emergency, in which, under the expectation of re-
bellion, loyal men united to defend the Crown at a period
of danger when that necessity had passed over it was most
inadvisable that they should be any longer continued in a
state of activity. (Hear) It was, on the contrary desirable
that these animosities which had so long prevailed in Ire-.
lend should be allowed gradually and permanently to sub-
side, and he could not but think that a decision on this
motion, whatever way it might be, would tend to retard
that result and have a most injurious effect. The right hon.
and learned gentleman, as he understood, expressed his
wish that such societies should no longer exist, but he did
not understand him to say that it would be the policy of
the government of which he was a member to discourage
them by all the means in their, power.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
was the duty of every government to discourage political
societies in Ireland whether open or secret, and he thought
the best mode of cerrying out that policy was by discourag-
iug such motions as the present. (Cheers.) In the days
when he first came into Parliament the chief staple of poli-
tical controversy was motions of this kind, and he hoped
that such a course had been discontinued, but he had been
disappointed. When the noblelord, after the answer of his
right hon. friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, rose ins
spirit of admonition and warning, and called on his right
hon. friend the Secretary of State to declare whether it was
the policy of the Government to act in contravention of
the resolution which was come to in 1836, he must be 4.
lowed to say that nothing had been stated by the hon.
gentleman who had brought forward the motion, or by his
right hon. friend which justified the opinion expressed by
the noble lord. The right hon, gentleman who brought
forward the motion had entirely failed in his case—(loud
cheers)—and he might not to have sought to revive such
unhappy can es of dissei ion without having duly inquired
into the circumstances of the case; and he (Mr. Disraeli)
trusted that the manner in which the remarks of the
right hon. gentleman had been received, and the observa-
tions of his hon. friend the Attorney-General for Ireland,
in which he entirely agreed, could offer no encouragement
to such motions for the future. He trusted that the policy
of the Government towards Ireland would be one entirely
adapted to the changed circumstances of that country, anti
when motions wore brought forward, and allusions made
such as they had listened to that night, which were
adapted to circumstances very different to those
now happily existing in Ireland, and which re-
ferred to habits and customs now fortunately obsolete, h.
could only say, on the part of the Government, that their
course would be adapted to the newer and happier circum-
stances of the sister kingdom, and that their policy would
be—what he hoped would always be the policy of those who
sat on those benches just, generous, and conciliatory,
not acknowledging any differences of creed or of party
save those which could be constitutionally expressed; and
the tenor of their policy would not be such as to justify
tho recognition cf such motions as this. He did not know
what were the intentions of the right hon. gentleman :
perhaps he would not call on the house to divide ; buthe
(Mr. Disraeli) could not consent to the withdrawal of the
motion. (Rear.)

Mr. ROEBUCK, who was met with loud cries of
" Divide," and " Question," raid that he thought the
motion was intended to be confined to one part of it • and
if so, he should have voted for it. But it seemed that ft was
meant as a distinct censure on a particular act. Because
ho was sure from the form and wording of it, that it was
meant to pass a direct censure on the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Whiteside), he could not vote for it—(hear, hear)—
for the st:,tement of the right hon. gentleman was a com-
plete vindication of himself—(loud cheers) -and, believ-
i.,,„; that, ho rnt I-r ho motion. (fond cheers.)
'Mr. J. D. FITZGERA.LD who was met with loud cries
of " Spoke," " Divide," and "Question," said that after
what had fallen from the noble lord, he felt that he ought
not to press the motion to a division. (Cheers.)
The motion was then put and negatived. (Tremendous
cheering.)

NAVIGATION (IRELAND).
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON obtained leave to bring in a bill
to extend the time for making advances towards naviga-
tion in Ireland, under the provisions of an act of the 19th
and 20th Vic., eht.p. C. 2.
CORRUPT PRACICES AT ELECTIONS.
Mr. WALPOLE obtained leave to bring in a bill to
continue and amend the Corrupt Practices Prevention
Act, 1854. It was intended to continue the present act for
a year and till the end of next session. It also amended
the act in reference to the travelling expenses of electors
and the expenses of election auditors.
GAME LAW (IRELAND) BILL.
The order for the second reading of this bill was dis-
charged.

FUNDED DEBT BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
The other orders of the day were postponed, and the
house adjourned at twenty minutes to two.