The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-05 00:00:00

H-E SUN,

He was also unable to give the house any information
on the demands made by Lord Elgin, that resting with
the noble lord in the wide discretion that had been
given to him. His object was to effect a direct commu-
nication between this country and the highest authorities
in China. England was joined in the beginning with
France, and afterwards with the United States, and
Russia had lately given a partial concurrence in what
we were doing in China. As soon as poasible,and con-
sistent with our allies, he would give the house further
information on the subject. A message had been sent
to Lord Elgin to return to Canton to meet the Chinese
Commissioner.
Mr. BRIGHT complained that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer as usual had answered the question of the
noble lord without giving any actual information.
firetHe
had not a seat in Parliament when the question
came before Parliament, and he had bad no opportunity
of stating his opinion on the origin of the complicated
affairs they now found themselves involved in. He
entirely concurred in the course his hon. friend the late
member for the West Riding took on the occasion
alluded to. Two unfortunate things resulted from fo-
reign co-partnerships in matters of this kind. One was,
that the course of negotiations was by such alliances to a
large extent taken out of the bands of the English
Government ; and, secondly, that, according to
the theory of the right honourable gentleman,
the House of Commons, n consequence of such
alliances, could know nothing about the matter, be•
cause having allies we must act with them. (Hear, hear.)
They did not know what object France had in joining us
in the affair of China, any more than they did their own
object, and it was not to be expected the House of
Commons would wait until the negotiations were
at an end to know what our objects were
towards China. (Hear, hear.) The last war with
China did no good beyond opening Canton to the
commercial world, and this war was likely to be less
productive if these complicated affairs were to be con-
tinued. He warned her Majesty's Government against
continuing a war that originated with their predeces-
sors, and by adopting a straightforward course they
would earn the respect of the people.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said there were between 60 and
70 vessels, including between 18 and 20 gun-boats in
the East, and there were rather more than 12,000 men
there. That included the whole of the naval forces in
the East Indies and Caine. That force would be re-
duced at the earliest practical moment.
ARREST OF CAPTAIN JUDKINS—THE SLAVE
TRADE AND COMMISSIONER YEEI.
Mr. HORSFALL asked the Under-Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs whether her Majesty's Govern•
ment had received any intelligence from New York of
the arrest of Captain Judkins of the Royal Mail steamer
Persia ; and, if so, whether the circumstances of the
case warranted such a procedure on the part of the
American authorities.
Mr. WILSON asked the Under-Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs whether there was any objection to
lay upon the table copies of correspondence between the
British Government and that of the United States, upon
the measures taken for the suppression of the Slave
Trade ; and, if not, when such papers would be pro-
duced ?
Mr. LAURIE asked the Under Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs how Commissioner Yeh was to be
disposed of • whether he was to be confined as a pri-
soner in India or in England
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said her Majesty's Govern-
ment had not received any official information on the
arrest of Captain Judkins, and of course he could give
them no official information respecting that circumstance,
and they were unable to say if that arrest was justifi-
able or not. With reference to the quistion of the
hon. member for Devonporth, her Majesty's Govern-
ment would give the correspondence referred to, espe-
cially as the American Government had published their
version of the matter. Her Majesty's Government bad
been in correspondence with the A merican Government
and expressed their regret should anything have occurred,
but her Majesty's Government did not think it fit to lay
secret correspondence at present before the house.
Orders had been sent out for an inquiry into the circum-
stances of the Cuban affair, and also instructions to our
officers there to use the grea est caution in exer-
cising the power with which they had been en-
trusted. With reference to the third question, it was
ound desirable to remove Commissioner Yeh from
China, and he was taken to Calcutta, where he now re-
mained, and he (Mr. Fitzgerald) feared the hon. gentle•
man who had put the question would not have an oppor-
tunity of seeing Commissioner Yeh in this country.
(Laughter.)
STATE OF THE THAMES.
Mr. GRIFFITH asked the Chief Commissioner of
Works whether he was not aware that, in any conside-
ration of the state of the water of the Thames, the
whole question at issue was that of the effect upon
the purity of the air which might be produced by the
liberation of gases injurious.' to health from the water.
(The hon. member addressed the house amidst loud
and repeated cries of "Oh, oh !" " adjourn," "order,"
and much laughter.)
Lord J. MANNERS admitted his inability to answer
the question, and suggested he should address a letter
to the chairman of the committee now sitting, with re•
ference to the Thames, stating his willingness to give
valuable evidence on the subject.
RIOTS AT BELFAST.
Mr. J. FITZGERALD called the attention of the
house to the recent riots at Belfast, and asked the Ceiet
Secretary for Ireland whether it was the intention of
Government to propose any meoeure for the better pre-
servation of the peace and protection of property in that
borough.
Lord NAAS said, that on Sunday last, on the ecru-
Pion of the funeral of a man who had been the chairman
of a well-kno Nn political association, an affray took place
between the police and tl4e Roman Catholic poptiletion.
Several persons collected, and considerable excitement
ensued. The operations of this riotous assemblage con-
sisted principally in stone throwing, and that no serious
damage either to p arisen or property was done. lie was
sorry to say that during the day and night of Monday
and Tuesday these occurrences were repeated, and
though he had no official information of what had taken
place on Wednesday, he feared that up to a late hour
that night the riotous proceedings had continued. Upon
the first intimation that the Government had of these
proceedings they took the strongest possible steps to
repress them. A large force of cavalry were sent imme-
diately to Belfast, numbering nearly 1,000 men. Mr.
Coulson, a stipendiary magistrate of the grea'est expe-
r once and intelligence, with two other stipendiary ma-
gistrates, had been ordered to proceed thither to assist
Mr. Tracey. The Crown solicitor bad been sent to take
the depositions that might be laid against the rioters ;
in fact everything that could be done to suppress these
unfortunate proceedings had been done. (Hear, hear.)
As to the measures which the Government proposed for
the better preservation of the peace in future, it was his
intention to submit to the house that evening a bill which
proposed to deal generally with the police force in towns
in Ireland ; and he thought the hon. and learned gen-
tleman would be perfectly satisfied with what was pro
posed. He believed that the ordinary law of the coun
try war amply sufficient for the suppression of 'riot and
disturbance provided the law were put in force with
prudence and energy. (Hear, hear.) He did not see that
the Government could take any further steps in the
matter ; and from what he had heard that afternoen he
had every reason to believe that these riots would be
promptly and speedily pat down. (Hear.) The state of
the town was very different from what it was last year.
The population had now no arms in their hands, and the
riots were not likely to be of so serious a nature as they
were last year. He could assure the house that the
matter occupied the constant and hourly attention of
the Government, and every means that prudence and
experience could suggest would be used to put an end
to these proceedings. (Hear.)
Cot. FRENCH :aid that all the measures taken wou'd
he at the public expense. Why should not Belfast be
treated in the same way as any other district, and male
ti pay the cent of the iocrea, ed force that was required
to put down the disturbance ?
The motion far adjournment until Monday was then
agreed to.
THE INDIAN RESOLUTIONS.
Mr. GLADdTONE gave notice of his intention to
move two resolutions when the house next went into
committee cn the Government cif India. He proposed
to move, as art amendment on the third resolution, wi
wbieh the discussion would begin—"Tnat, regard being
had to the p >sition of affairs in In lie, it is expedient t
constitute ti e Court of Directors of the East India Cow.
pany to be the c.,uniell fur administering the government
of India, in the name of her Majesty, and under the
superintendence of each responsible minister, until the
end of the next session of parliament." In •he event of
that amendment being agreed to he should move a fur-
th.r red elution to the efict that the President of tee
Brie' of Control should be empowered to preside ov
tthemeourt of Directors, in lieu of the chairman thee f
and
to I exercise all the powers now exercise:] by siert,
chairman.
SALE AND TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND)
CHINA. BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL in tired what was the present On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
state of our relations with China; and asked for the Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD moved that it should bs
communication of the terms which Lord Elgin had dc- referred to a select committee. The measure proposed
mended from the Emperor of China, and of the answer to substitute for the Encumbered Estates C(irta per
which had been received from the Chiee e Government ? maneut tribunal called the Landed Estates Court,
He asked for what purpose Lord Elgin had been sent and to give that court power to sell unencumbered as
further to the north, and our naval force in China bad well as encumbered estates, and also to examine titles
been increased from 11,000 to 13,000 men, whilst a at the instance of any party. Those were desirable
smaller force was sent there by France. If we had any objects in the main, for which he had contended ever
Conventions with foreign powers it ought to be corn- since he had bad a seat in parliament, and which
Inunicated to Parliament, as well as the demands, if had been as long opposed by the hon. and learned gm
any, that had been made on China. (Hear.) Parlia- tleman opposite (M. Whiteside). Seeing the inestimable
went had a right to ask what was our actual benefits which'the operatien of the Encumbered Estates
relation with Caine, and the Policy her Majesty's G Court had conferred upon Ire land they ought to pea
VerlaMent was pursuing in reference to that country. before they abolished it, or put ecesie other court in its
The article of t,,e treaty %vitt, respect to opium had been place. The noble lord opposite (the Secretary f
ntotsriously violated, no doubt with the concurrence of land), and the right hon. gentleman the Attorney-Game-
thrseaPeople of China. It was desirable to revise t!.eit I ril for Ireland, when out of office, expressed their °pp,
__,,oty.t. He only asked fir a general sta'etnent of our sition to the Encumbered Estates Act, and now that
1-Thru
_owards that country, as it was diffieult to under- they were in office they took crelit to tbeinsrlyes for
stand thoobjects of •During the Re7on or eight years that the
be • a mission that appeared supporting
to be g.eng it.
You, ite °riot,
The cums.leFa purpose and intention. court had been in existence, it bad sold property t tee
the
public
onappointmentgrossueasd,neade for the advantage of the number Irish purchasers was 7,180, whilst the new
to China, in eee„,u, of benefit. With regard ber of Euelisb, Scotch, and foreign purchasers was only
Government had iieettlief theernall time her Majesty's 503. The Lila purchasers expended 18,000,000/. again,t
in Power 'e
ee
te This
them to give further inforraa was impossible for 3,000 000/. of capital expended by the oth,r -•-
already known. The late o
unoon the eubjeet than .rat showed the beneficial opera,'ion of the act. But it had
Elgin. very wisely a wide
discretion
In all pro- the occupying tenants to purchase the fee simple of their
bability be was not aware of the ange of her holdings. (Hear, hear.) It was the b ninden dn'y f
Majesty's Government, and having the
autmost cone- the hcti,e to sea that any measure on this subject was
deuce in Lord Elgin, her M jesty's Government
continued in him that wide discretion of action -had eyeeything that it ought to be..; In 1854 the Govern-
him by their predecessor?. It was impossible forgiv
given to ;,went of Lord Aberdeen Issued a commission to inquire
to give the motives that had induced Lordhim into this subject, and the resolution that the commission
Elgin to cam
leave Canton and go to Shanghai. He (the Chancellor Ete to was, that the jurisdiction of the Encumbered
Estates Court should he transferred to the Court of
of the Exchequer) had no doubt Lord Elgin bad Chancery •
adopted a wise and proper course in doting so, the Heirs:of with
posse r to give a parliamentary title on
bered as well as of encumbered es-
b beyond that he could give the house no infortaatini tales, He
hadrs the honour
of introducing a bill to carry

out the resolutions of the commissioners, but the right I
lean. and learned gentleman opposed the extension of the
principle to unencumbered estates. His bill was referred
to a select committee with power to examine witnesses.
He proposed now to refer the present bill to a select
committee, but he did not mean that they should exa-
mine witnesses, but merely that they should sift the bill
and then reproduce it to the house. If that course was
not approved of by the house he was willing to consider
it in committee of the whole house, for he entirely ap-
proved of the main object of the measure. The bill pro-
posed to abolish the present court, and to substitute for
it a new court, to be called the Landed Estates Court.
He bad no objection to any change of that kind, pro-
vided the new c curt preserved the system for the free and
open sale of landed estates. But it behoved them to
apply those safeguards which would prevent the new
court from becoming a second Court of Chancery. Now,
what was to be the jurisdiction of the new court I
First, it was to have the sale of unencumbered as well as
of encumbered estates ; the administration of the funds
produced by the sales, and the settlement of all the
equity connected with the estates. Where there were
contracts for the sale of land the court was to carry out
tee decree for their specific performance ; it was to ap-
point receivers, and to pronounce decrees concerning the
titles of all persons who chose to come to it for that pur-
pose. If the house did not proceed with the utmost
caution there was great danger lest a court invested
with these powers should become a second Court of
Chancery. The great object they had in -sieve was to
continue the system which gave the country the advan-
tage of a market overt for the sale of land, where per-
sons could purchase in whatever quantities they liked.
Now, to encumber the court with the appointment of
receiver'. and, as connected therewith, the care and
supervision of the estate, was to make the first departure
from the simple character of the Encumbered Estates
Court. (Hear, hear.) He must set his face against
leaving to the new tribunal a power which would be so
ruinous in its consequences as the appointment of re-
ceivers over the land. He also objected to giving to the
new court the power of dealing with settled estates.
Then the court was not only to sell estates but to enter-
tain the extensive jurisdiction for the enforcement of
specific contracts for the sale of land in all their ramifi-
cations. He was not opposing the creation of a distinct
court, but they ought to apply safeguards to prevent its
becoming a second Court of Chancery. He wished to
call the attention of the house to the 38th clause, which
empowered the court to send questions of fact to be
tried by a court of law. All their attempts had been re-
cently directed to give unity of jurisdiction to the several
courts, but this bill departed from that principle by em-
powering the new court to send issues to be tried by a
court of law. The court would have to carry out the
sales of the Court of Chancery, the Court of Bank-
ruptcy, and the Court of Insolvency ; yet the bill pro-
posed to reduce the court from three to two judges. He
was anxious to save the country from any unnecessary
expense, but he thought the efficiency of the court ghoul 1
be the first consideration. He hoped that two judges
would be sufficient to do all the business. He could not
speak too highly of the efficiency and activity of all the
commissioners. What he should recommend would be
this, that the three commissioners should be retained,
but that when a vacancy took place it should not be filled
up unless public necessity required it. They could not in
justice supersede Mr. Hargreaves with a less pension
than the 2,0001. a-year, which was the salary which he
had as commissioner. He would give all the judges the
same salary. (Hear.) He begged to call the attention of
the right hon. gentleman the member for Ca lisle to the
, 72d clause of the bill, which empowered the court to
. nominate a number of conveyancing counsel—not less
than three—to aid and assist the judges in the investi-
gation of titles to estates. And by the following clause
it was provided that if any party objected to the opinion
of the conveyancing counsel, the judge might instruct
counsel to appear before him for the purpose of support-
; ing his opinion. (Rear.) This was a principle of the bill
to which be must entirely objet`, because by giving the
judge power to call in conveyancing counsel to aid him,
the responsibility of the judge, which was the great se-
curity for the public, would be interfered with. Under
r the present system in this country there was the safe.),
. to be derived from the responsibility of a judge of high
character sitting in court. But by the appointment of
i these conveyancing counsel the responsibility would be
I thrown on the advisers of the parties, and he entirely
objected to the proposal. Another point was the mode
in which the court was to be provided for by sec. 89.
The expenses were to be met by a duty to be levied on
all estates sold under the court, 103. per cent. under
10,000/.,-and 1 per cant. beyond. He quite approved of
this principle, but he thought the higher rate should be
levied on the smaller estates ; 201. would not be much
on an estate of 2,0001., but on a large property like that
of Lord Thomond, which lately produced 450,0001., the
same per ceatage would amount to a very large sum. If
this bill passed, it would remove almost all the business
from the Court of Chancery ; at present the business of
that court in Ireland was confined principally to the sale
of estates, and if the new court got power to sell and ad•
minister all the equities ari-ing therefrom everybody
would prefer so cheap a tribunal to the Court of Chau-
eery, where he would be met at every step by fees and
stamps. As t ) the proposed arrangement with the Bank
of Ireland, ha thought it would be impossible to keep
the cause ; a'l the matter to which he had referred
would be much better coasidered in a select committee..
He would next call attention to the most important
clause, the 50th, which gave the now jurisdiction to the
court. In refertnce to this, and almost all the other
. clauses, he should say that the language was open to the
greatest objection, and the bill was evidently drawn up
in a hurry. Under the 50th section, any owner who
. desired to have his title investigated, and a judicial de-
claration made that he had a good title, might apply to
the court, whereupon the c)urt should investigate it,
and if the title appeared satisfactory the judge should
make and sign a written declaration to that effect, sealed
with the seal of the court, and should state in a schedule
any leases, tenancies, and encumbrances to which the
estate was suhjsct, and such declaration shall make it
conclusive and indeeasible. The clause made no dis-
tinction between the o eerier of an estate in the land and
the owner of the land itself. Under the clause the judge
was bound to investigate the title of every incumbrancer
and of every tenant. (Hear) The owner might oblige
every one of those parties to come before the court, and
there was no provision to make him liable for their costs.
It was said that the bill was founded on the report of
the committee last year, but it did not carry out one of
their recommendation. The right hon. gentleman the
Attorney-General fur Ireland did not sufficiently dis-
tinguish between a registry of conveyances and a registry
of titles ; the bill did nothing but establish a mode of
conveyance with a statutable title. The present registry
in Ireland was nothing but a registry of conveyance.
He thought that the 50th clause ought to be struck
out ; it would *pen the door to a great number of frauds.
He was anxious that the bill should pass, but for the
reasons he had state.] he thought it would be better to
refer it to a select committee. He had no desire, how-
ever, to defeat the bill, and would withdral his motion
if his hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General as-
sured him it would defeat the hill. He would only de-
tain the house with one more remark—that was in refer-
ence to the Master, Mr. Flanagan. That gentleman had
given up a lucrative practice to accept his office, and to
his exertion the success of the measure was in great mea-
sure owing. The bill proposed to dispense with his ser-
vices, and leave him to the mercy of the Treasury for
compensetion. He ought to be-placed in the same posi-
tion as Mr. Hargreaves, and allowed Lis full salary un-
til appointed to some other post.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was glad that this dis-
cus-don had taken place, as he was satisfied the more the
bill was discussed the more it would be approved of. He
would beg to state shortly the reasons why he could not
adopt the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman to re-
fer the bill to a select coin nittee. The bill involved cer•
tain leading and important features which must some
time or ot,her be discussed by the house, and even if the
bill went to a select committee they would still require
to be discussed ia the house. In addition to these lea].
ing faturea there were a number of details. All those
details wire borrowed from the Encumbered E states
Curt, where they had been tested by working. The
bill, like all other large bills, was eusoeptible of improve-
ment; but he had read it careful'y, and was bound to
say it was drawn with the greatest care and ski:l. Tee
ineaserefer the establishineetof the En timbered Estates
Court was a very strong one, and was violently opposed.
It ha 1, ho wevi r, conferred great benAi's on Ireland, and
ill parties. osuers of property and others, admitted the
great benefits it had conferred. It was true the present
Chancellor of Ireland ha 1 opposed his original bill, but
I he had since fully adeoted the principle of a perliament,ary
title. He wo led triefly call the attention of the house t,
the principal features if the house. The first was it gave
power to sell encumbered estates. That was Detain,:
new. The second went further, and gave power to sell
and give a parliamentary title to unencumbered estates.
The third tee it still f. rimer, end without any sale, shut ly
on the requisitien of the owner of a f. e simple, enabled
the cur to investigate the title and give him an inde-
feasible title. \Vita reference to the last two features,
he must say it had always appeared to him that the
argument watt most logical and most conclusive in favour
of taking the three steps. Suppose an estate wor h
100,000/., having an encumbrance of 10,0001. on it, the
encumbrancer was the owner of 1-10th of it, but as re-
girded the others-lochs the estate was unencumbered;
there was no magic in the fact of there being an encum-
brance that afforded no additional security. On the
contrary', no person had so much interest in concealing
any flaw in the ti .le as an encumbrancer, They could not
tontine the bill to encumbered estates. If they did, it
would be giving a premium to those who had acted ex-
travagantly ; and in practice the limitation would be in-
effectual, as there were many instances in which an en-
cumbrance was created merely to bring an estate under
the juris fiction of the present court. In point of prime-
ciple or of practicability, therefore, they could not still
shut out encumbered estates. The Lest point Was whether
the title •hould not be given without the formality of a
sale. There was no magic la the fact of a sale whic'a gave
any additional cecu ity ; their otj,ct should be to obtain
the greatest security human ingenuity could secure, and
ther:. best suede of doing Eo would require every conside-
ctirritAatp i,n,d. Ifiifeca3t
tgai
e n
seals
through
requisiteh3ruoinu.brhthe e
anc to
s. formobtainl.
oef
a trusted f
a l
h
le, e
as,
that
hhtaeyte
yif p
would
ow
this
bill iu cesdedin Ireland, the time would come a hen they
e were
would app's a sunder system to + property in this
country. He I:elleved owners of landed property
hardly aware of the benefit such a; measure wools be to
a
them. No taxes to which the laud was subject pressed
fir o
soe hefaivti.lysastiti,e arshyoseecoanoe an connected
etd withwas the sal, and trans-
ag
the assign merit of eatistied terms unipieacsesessda;y7"o he had
felt some curiosity to ascertain what saving had been
effected by it. He applied to one of the most eminent
conveyancers, and from the data furnished by him, he
was sati:fied the saving was not less than 300,000/. If
afraid
dom the s
new p_
court would
a bill like the present passed it would incra3petheer cent.vClus
Theofevreigryhtfheeons. mgpenletlteoutahe was
eown
t,efr