The Sun.
London, England, 1867-07-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIA.N.ENT

HOUSE OF LORDS—LAST EVENING.
The LOUD CHANCELLOU took his seat on the woolsack at
five o'clock.

THR VESTMENTS BILL.
Tho Earl of SHAFTESBURY said that as it was pro-
bable that the Reform question would occupy their lord-
ships' attention on Thursday and Friday next, it would
suit the convenience of the house to adjourn his motion
on the Vestments Bill till Monday next, and he
trusted that the right reverend prelate would
then be prepared to ante to their lordships what
course Convocation would take in the matter.

- -
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The West Cork Railway, and Great North of Scotland
Rtilway (Amendments) Bills were read a third time.
PETITION.
A i etition was presented that members should be
allotted to the University of Edinburgh.

RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL.
Tho report of amendments on this bill was read.
THE REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.

-- -
This bill was again passed into committee.
Clause 7 being the first submitted to the house,
Lord GREY said that with regard to this clause, which
was the creation of a franchise from the personal payment
of rates by the occupiers of small tenements themselves,
it had always been found that there was the very
greatest difficulty in obtaining the rates from an
immense number of poor districts, and from the
inquiries of the Poor Law Commissioners and other
authorities, the then Government had become satis-
fied that it was a great hardship to inflict on these
poor persons the imposition of rates ; and in 1856 an act
was passed which enabled vestries and other bodies
to make such terms with the owners of this
class of property as tkey thought fit. Now this
act which was passed almost unanimously had mate-
rially aided in adding to the comfort of those who inha-
bited the poorer class of dwellings, but by the insertion of
this clause the other House of Parliament had entirely
"swept away what former legislation had done. If the system
of compounding the rates was abolished the result would be
that, whereas at the present time the landlord collected the
amount due, together with the rout, weekly, that when
• the tax collector called upon these poor people he would
find that they had moved from parish to parish, leaving
the rates unpaid. In addition to that it would lead to
heart- burningand vindictiveness against the parish officers,
which would lead to discord and general discontent. He
would ask their lordships whether it was right by such a
-clause to bring on such a state of discontent, both
amongst the old voters and the new. They would be in-
flicting an injury on the old voters, and would be entail-
. ing a heavy burthen on the new. They would find that
such an excitement would be created by this new system
•of rating that something would have to be done to miti-
gate it. Ho should therefore move that this 7th clause
be omitted.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the preference
which was given to the compound householder with regard
to the franchise was from the fact that ho saved the parish
,a deal of expense by the manner in which the rates were
collected. It was necessary to protect the compound
•householder and prevent him from being disfranchised.
• This could have been done by repealing the act alluded to
'by the noble earl; but that did not come within
the scope of this bill, and therefore it was not practicable,
but to meet the evil clause 7 was introduced, and he sub-
mitted to their lordships that it was necessary that it
should remain part of the bill. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ROMNEY said that very great benefit had been
conferred by this act, and they ware going to repeal
it, not because it had failed in the object for which it was
named, but to meet a totally different matter, and this he
thought excessively unwise.
Lord RUSSELL said that, though he should not oppose
the clause, he considered the present way of dealing with
the question was far from satisfactory.
After a conversational discussion which followed, and in
which the Duko of Richmond supported the clause, Lord
Granville recommended the withdrawal of the amend-
ment, and Lord Harrowby, though wishing to avoid a
division, was ready to support it.
Lord GREY replied to the objections made against his
'motion. It was absurd, he contended, to say that this
,clause had anything to do with the franchise. It must be
judged on its own merits, and independently of the bill of
which it formed a part. The bill was not a money bill
with which they could not meddle, and the Government
had themselves consented to many amendments, some of
which he thought most injudicious.
After a few words from Lord EVERSLEY,
The Duke of ARGYLL, though prepared to vote for the
'clause as an essential part of the bill, could not refrain
from drawing the attention of their lordships to what he
thought would prove most serious defects in its working,
illustrating his arguments by the state of the rating system
in Sc Aland, and especially in Glasgow.
Lord Lichfield and the Duke of Manchester gave very
faint praise to the measure, and the house divided, when
there appeared for the retention of the clause—
Contents
Non-contents
Majority
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 8,
Lord HALIFAX moved an amendment to the effect that
persons registered as voters for the county should not for
the same premises have votes for borough members also,.
The Duke of RICHMOND thought the amendment
might appear at first sight Conservative, but in real work-
' ing it would bo more injurious than its mover imagined.
Not the least of its ill effects would be to increase the re-
presentation of leasehold property and diminish that of
freehold, while at the same time it would add a largo town
constituency to the rell of voters for the counties.
Lord RUSSELL added a few remarks, amid some cries
of " Question," when
The House again divided, and the numbers were—
Contents ••• ••• ••• ••• 41
Non-contents

148
. 43
. -105

. - 9I

Majority ..
The amendment was therefore rejected.
On the same clause Lord LYTTELTON moved an
amendment to the effect that none in future should be en-
titled to vote at elections who cannot write a legible hand.
This led to a rather amusing discussion, Lord Denbigh
stating that from his experience begging-letter writers
wrote the best hands he had ever read ; while Lord Gran-
ville said that a valuable servant at the Foreign-office once
.sent a despatch which, when a copy of it was wanted, was
almost undecipherable, and he thought he would have had
to send for the original.
Eventually the amendment was negatived without a

division.
On the Bth Clause the Marquis of CLANRICARDE
moved an amendment to the effect that after tho passing
of the bill none admitted as freemen of cities or boroughs
should be entitled as such to vote at Parliamentary elec-
tions. _ _

To this the LORD CHANCELLOR objected, and even-
tually it also was negatived without a division.
On Lord CAIRNS' motion, on the same, clause, to insert
a clause that no person should vote for more than two can-
didates at one election, or in the city of London for more
than three, his lordship maintained that such a change as
this would really give representation to the minorities,
'would do away in a great measure with the most expen-
sively-contested elections, and also to a certain extent with
bribery.
Lord MALMESBURY, while admitting the consum-
mate ability of the advocate for minorities, and what are
'termed three-cornered constituencies, objected to the
clause, not only as new fangled in principle, but as opposed
to the general feelirg of Englishmen, who were accustomed
to be governed by majorities, and to submit to their deci-
sion either as to what they thought or what they did.
Lord RUSSELL supported the proposed clause. He
looked on Lord Malmesbury's assertion that party contests
did good as most erroneous, and still more erroneous was
the idea that any amount of clauses introduced into a bill
would ever put an end to thorn in this country. He hoped
Lord Cairns would press his motion to a division.
Lord Denman spoke briefly against the proposed clause,
and Lords Spencer and Stanhope strongly in its favour.
The Duke of MARLBOROUGH defended the course
taken by the Government, and denied that the three-cor-
nered constituency plan had originated with her Majesty's
Ministers, though they had acquiesced in the suggestion
when it was put before them. The inevitable effect of the
proposed clause would be to reduce the number of candi-
dates. The whole thing would be managed by an election
committee, who would settle among thernsells who was
to be their member, and if that system once prevailed Par-
liament would lose the great influence it now possessed as
representing the feelings and influence of the majority.
After a few words from Lord COWPER iu support of the
clause, Lord CARNARVON gave it his most hearty approba-
tion. The plan proposed was neither a Whig nor a Tory
scheme, fur it seemed to meet with general approval from
both sides ()Idle house. lie trusted their lordships would
dismiss all party considerations, and remember tho trust
placed in them, which he feared they would ill deserve if
they r.j.,cted the clause.
Lord Houghton and Lord Shrewsbury continued the
debat both briefly announcing their intention of support-
ing the clause of Lord Cairns, as did also Lord Stratford
de Rodeliffe, with whose observatioss the discussion
closed, and their lordships divided, when there appeared
for the clause,
Con tents 142

Non-Contents
-91
Majority .....
Lora Cairns' clause was accordingly carried.
The Marquis of BRISTOL moved to omit clause 9
which disqualifies paid canvassers or other hired agents of
.candidates from voting, but after a short discussion across
the table, in which several of their lordship:3 took part, but
scarcely a word of which was audible, the clause was
agreed to with some verbal amendments.
On clause 10, disfranchising Totnes, Lancaster, Reigate,
and Great Yarmouth,
Lord ROMILLY moved an amendment that they should
be disfranchised only to the year 1880, as the punishment