The Sun.
London, England, 1858-01-28 00:00:00

ABOLITIO.

DEPUTATION TO LORD PALMERSTON..

Ye4terday a deputation of gentlemen, representing
various Dissenting bodies throughout the country, had
an interview with Lord Palmerston, at Cambridge
House, to present a statement in reply to that made to
the noble lord last year by the " committee of irtymen"

on the subject of church rates.
The deputation was introduced by Sir William Clay,
Bart., and included the following gentlemen :--Messrs.
Charles Gilpin, M.P., A S. Ayrton, M.P., Donald Nicoll,
M.P., T. S. Duncombe, M.P., John Locke, M.P., W. Wil-
liams, M.P., F. Hastings Russell, M.P. ; Sir J. Duke,
Bart., M.P., Hon. George Byug, M.P.; Messrs. Arthur
Russell, M.P., J. A. Hardcastle, M.P., Thomas Alcock,
M.P., Edward Miall ; Rev. J. Burnet, Rev. F. Clowes,
Rev. E. Eckett, Dr. Foster; Messrs. E. Clarke, C. Curling,
J. Carwell Williams, J. F. Bontems, E. Swains, H. .eggs,
T. Box, P. Carstairs, G. J. Cockerell, Joseph Cooper, J.
Fennings, D. Childs, W. H. Watson, J. Cuunington, J.
A. Evans, W. Brett, J. M. Hare, W. Leavers, T. Mann,
C. S. Miall, G. Offer, jun., A. Pellatt, S. Saw, B. Scott, J.
Templeton, E. Clarke, G. W. Davison' T, Carter, T. C.
Tuberville, S. Allen, T. E. Parsons J. Finlay, H. S.
Skeats, Hull Terrell, W. Heaton, W. V. Oulton, together
with the following gentlemen from the provinces : Mr. G.
Attenborough, Southminster ; Mr. W. Bond, Cambridge ;
Mr. Bantock, Wolverhampton ; Mr. J. Bagnall, Car-
marthen ; Mr. J. H. Chaplin,"Fulbourne ; Mr. E. Cooper,
Coventry • Mr. E. Craig, Braintree ; Mr. J. Copland,
Chelmsford ; Mr. S. Courtanld, Braintree ; Rev. J. C. W.
Drava, Hanley ; Rev. E. H. Delf, Coventry ; Mr. S.
Dickinson, Wolverhampton ; Rev. J. Dring, Wilburton ;
Mr. G. Dawbarn, Wisbeach ; Mr. J. Durant, Poole • Mr.
J. Everett, Luton; Mr. W. Email, Reading; Mr. E Evans,
Windsor ; Mr. W. J. Etches, Windsor ; Mr. S. Grundy,
Luton ; Rev. W. Griffiths, Derby ; the Mayor of Oxford ;
Mr. J. B. Grierson, Bridgnorth ; Mr. T. R. Hill, Worcester;
Mr. T. F. Potts, Newcastle ; Mr. E. Plant, East Retford ;
Mr. T. Piciduck, Hanley ; Mr. 0. Prentice, Ipswich ;
Rev. J. Pyer, Devonport ; Rev. W. Robinson, Cam-
bridge ; Rev. D. Rees, Braintree; Mr. E. S. Robinson,
Bristol ; Mr. W. Somerville, Bristol ; Mr. G. Sully,
Cardiff; Mr. T. Simpson, Preston ; Mr. S. Unwin, Col-
chester ; Mr. G. Vicars, Hull ; Mr. J. C. Woodhill, Bir-
mingham ; Mr. J. S. Whittam, Coventry ; Mr. W.
Walters, Haverfordwest ; Mr. W. Willis, Luton; Rev.
C. Winter, Southrrinster ; Mr. W. Hanmers, Farnworth;
Mr. F. Dobell, Maidstone; Mr. J. Baker, Andover; Mr.
J. Williams, Abingdon ; Mr. J. Wiles, St. Albans ; Mr,
W. Paine, St. Neots • Rev. G. B. Johnson, Damen ;
Mr
W. Thomas, Fairford; Mr. J. Tramper, Windsor ; the
Mayor of Folkestone ; Mr. B Abbott, Hitchin ; Mr. J.
Nunnelev, Market Harborough; Mr. J. A. Richardson,
1,0.6 ssussnis ; Irlr. 1. urquuart, , W.
' Baines, Leicester ; Mr. W. Jull, Staplehurst ; Mr. W.
Barnard, Stroud ; Mr. P. Brown, St. Ives ; Mr. A. Pegler,
Southampton; Rev. J. H. Millard, Huntingdon; Mr.
Alderman Noble, Boston; Mr. W. H. Hawkes, Bishop's
Stortford ; Rev. G. W. Condor, Leeds; Ur. J. Sidebottom,
Manchester ; Mr. S. Marling, Stroud ; Mr. T. Coote, Fen-
stanton ; Mr. C. Tebbritt, Bluntisham ; Mr. Brown,
Fairleigh ; Mr. W. Lankester, Southampton ; Rev. J.
Fletcher, Christchurch; Rev. W. Best, Ramsey; Mr. J.
Coombs, Bedford ; Rev. S. S. Hall, Chatham ; Mr. J. L.
Foster, Hertford ; Mr. D. Pratt, Cuckfield ; Mr. S. Dickin-
son, 'Wolverhampton ; Mr. J. French, Chatham.
Sir W. CLAY said it was not his intention to occupy
the attention of the noble lord by going into any general
argument on the subject of ohurch rates. The present
was not a fitting opportunity for such discussion, and,
in the next place, the deputation were of opinion that it
was unnecessary, as they had every confidence that the
noble lord was agreed with them that the change of the
law was absolutely necessary, no matter what minor
points of difference might exist as to the manner of mak-
ing it. The object of the deputation was to furnish the
noble lord with evidence that in nearly every part of the
country there was an earnest and unabated desire for
the abrogation of the law of church rates. The gentle.
men composing the deputation had all of them extensive
opportunities of knowing the state of feeling on the
ec sub-
j t and it was their conviction that, among members
of the Church of England eta' Nonconformers there gas
a widely spread and unabated feeling in favour of the
abolition of church rates. They were of opinion that
the continuance of the impost was a violation of the
rights of conscience, and that its existence prolonged au
excitement whioh would not otherwise exist among
neighbours and their friends with whom they were in
agreement on all essential points of their common faith.
They were also of opinion that there was but one effec-
tual form of abolition namely, that the abolition
should be entire and without compromise. They con-
sidered that all other modes of abrogation would be un-
satisfactory, and that it was no longer possible to find
any substitute from general taxes. They further believed
that any attempt to continue church rates, exempting
Dissenters from the payment of them, would be an inex-
pedient mode of altering the law, and also a fertile
source of fraud and dissension. They were also of opinion
that a partialabolition of the rate, such as the exemption
of certain localities, would also be inexpedient, as it
would keep alive a source of discord and irritation
among the people. Another object which the deputation
had in view was to present certain statements with re-
gard to church rates, and to exhibit a different view of
the results to be obtained from the returns laid before
Parliament on the motion made by Lord R. Cecil and
himself. Certain inferences has been drawn from those,
which, in the opinion of the Dissenting body, were in-
correct. For his own part, he would merely say that in
his opinion the question at issue rested upon far broader
grounds than any to be drawn from the number of those
cases in which church rates had been agreed to without
opposition. With regard to the number of parishes in
which church rates had been so granted, he fancied the
general result would be different if the respective popu-
lations of the parishes were taken into account ' • but,
as far as the number of parishes was concerned, he was
willing to admit that there was a numerical majority
of parishes in which the rate had been collected with-
out opposition. He drew, however, an entirely diffe-
rent moral result from that state of facts. It appeared
t 3 him that to show that there were a great many parishes
in which no opposition was made to church rates was
only to show that without any compulsory law there
would be no difficulty by raising funds for the necessary
maintenance of the fabrics of the Established Church
throughout the country. Again, in cases where there
was an opposition, there was an illustration of the injus-
tice of the majority forcing the minority to pay a tax for
which they had no equivalent. In fine, if he were asked
to sum up his opinions in one sentence, he would say
that where there was no opposition to the collection of
church rates, a compulsory law to collect them was use-
less, and that where there was an opposition such a law
was unjust. (Applause.)
Mr. A. PELLATT, as :presenting three Dissenting
bodies, presented a memorial describing the feeling of
the great body of Dissenters against the continuance of
a tax which they contended was so obnoxious that, if it
did not now exist, no legislature would think of impos-
ing it. The memorialists called upon the noble lord, as
the head of the Government, to use his influence with
his colleagues to remove an impost the payment of which
the whole body of Dissenters regarded in the light of a
grievance.
Dr. FosTan then read the statement. It contained,
spun out to great length, the allegations and arguments
with which the public has long since been not only
familiar but fatigued.
Mr. COURTAULD, of Braintree, next addressed his lord-
ship, and submitted that church rates were a grievance
to Dissenters, because, by paying them, they a one
compelled in violation of religious freedom and tie right
of conscience, to contribute to the support of religious
services to which they objected, in respect either of form
or of doctrine. That support was virtually the same,
whether demanded for the services of the Church or for
the necessary repairs
vices were exslusivelyconducted. Church rates were also
a grievance, because Dissenters were taxed in violation
of conscience for the support of the religious services of
others, while they had to support also the entire charge
of their own. Again, church rates, originally an equal
tax upon all, when all were of one communion, were n
by the prevalence of divers communions, a tax on all for
the exclusive benefit of one—a national impost appro-
priated to party uses. (Hear.)
Mr. THOMAS URQUHART, of Liverpool, said he had
been requested, at a meeting of the ratepayers of that
town, to lay before his lordship a few facts in connection
with church rates there, and to show how the church.
wardens had managed since the impost was refused.
The rateable property in the parish of Liverpool was
upwards of 1,300,0001., and it was paying for the main-
tenance of the poor at a rate of above 125,0001. a-year.
Thy inhabitants of Liverpool, from their voluntary con-
tributions, had, lasi-dee, built and maintained 56 Church
of England churches (including two corporations amid
four parochial churches, which were maintained from
pew rents, from the corporation funds, and endowments
from the parish and town council) in which they pro-
vided seat accommodation for 60,749 parishioners, and
instructed 26,000 children in their day and Sunday
schools. They had also erected and maintained 99 Non-
conformist and Catholic places of worship, accommo
dating 102,750 of the inhabitants, and instructing
54,500 children. The parishioners thus taxed them-
selves for 155 churches and chapels, and gave
religious and moral instruction to above 217,900
souls in the parish. They therefore felt it was un-
just to tax them to maintain two parish churches which
rained sittings for nearly 2,600 of the rector's flock,
which he stated to to 400,000 souls, of which here were
only 80 communicants in both churches, and only 440
children in the schools belonging to them. The speaker
went on to state that on two, several occasions church
rates had been refused in Liverpool by large majorities ;
that after their refusal the congregation, by a voluntary,
rate of id. in the pound, raised not only the necessary
funds for the repair of the fabric, but also considerable
sums which were expended in substituting rich stained
glass windows in place of the old ones, in relaying the
aisle of the ohurch of St. Nicholas, and many other
improvements ; the result being that at length the
church wardens had abandoned the idea of proposing a
compulsory rate at all. (Hear, hear )
Sir W. CLAY having thanked the noble lord for the
attention he had paid to the representations or the depu-
tation,

Lord PALMEBSTON said—l of course understand that
the object for which you have done me the favour to come
here to-clay was that I might hear from you the various
opinions which you were desiroin of making known to
the Government. It was my duty, therefore, to listen
with due attention to everything that might be said.
I do not fancy you expected that I should argue
the question with you, or state in detail what
may be the arrangements which the Government may
be able to propose to Parliament. We have, as you know,
pledged ourselves on two or three occieions to proiose
a measure to Parliament; What that measure may be it
will be our duty to explain when we @hall have prepared
it. We were prevented labt year and the year before by
Ft, variety of circumstances, by matters of great impart-
..nce, and by o._,e impatience of Parliament to close the
movion, from submitting a tnea.sure or, the sulject. I
am utill in hope that we may find time this session
(although there are questions of great importance to be
disposed of) to propose a measure to Parliament. Of
course, the gentlemen whom I address are too much men
of the world, and know too well the bearing of great