The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-18 00:00:00

k'lnr'N, LONDON FRIDAY EVEN! NrO, JUNE 18, 1858.

its .
scale sufficiently lif Aral to permit being properly and
thoroughly tested . The old patronage ought to remain as
at present as mu oh as possible. The minister should have
a share of it, but the great mass of it should remain
in the hands of the council. He could not then
give a definite c %pinion as to the second ques-
tion of the nobl e lord the member for the city
of London ; and with reference to war, he thought
it would be impossible to lay down any definite
plan, because war might arise from local circumstances,
which it would be impossible to avoid before a commu-
nication could be tuade to this country and instructions
pent out. He thottght the resolutions before the house
had answered the pimp ose for which they were intended.
(Laughter.) Enough. had been elicited in debate on this
question, on which to it itroduce a bill, and her Majesty's
Government were props red to adopt the suggestion and
bring in a bill as soon tits possible. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MANGLES app roved of the plan now before the
committee. He thought it would work better than a
council merely nominated or entirely elected. The
secret committee might be abolished to-morrow with ad-
vantage to the Govern went of India. Their functions
were purely ministerial ; they had only to sign their
names to documents that came to them from the office

of the Board of Control.
Mr. AYRTON expressed his satisfaction at the result,
so far, of the proceedings of committee. They had learn•
ed the view of her Majesty's Government; the noble lord
the member for Tiverton, who was gradually coming round
to the opinions of her Majesty's Government, and those of
the noble lord the member for London upon this subject,
and the house would in con sequence be in a better posi-
tion to legislate on it. Her Majesty's Government ap-
peared to have appreciated the general views of those
who took an interest in Indian affairs. The opening of
the Manchester school, if carried out, would be subver-
sive of the happiness of the people of India,and at no dis-
tant day they would be found to be subversive to our rule
in that country. Those who were greatly interested in
the affairs of India had come to a determination that the
opinions of the Manchester school did not prevail in the
Government of India.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE appealed to her Majesty's Go-
vernment if it was worth their while to retain the last
remnant of the electoral system embodied in the seheme
of this day. He thought the appointment of the council
should be by the responsible Minister of the day, and he
hoped that on the second reading of the bill the house
would adopt that principle.
Colonel SYKES was sorry to find the noble lord the
President of the Board of Control had given up the re-
presentative principle in the formation of the council.
Representation and taxation he (Colonel Sykes) consi-
dered the principle of the British constitution. (Hear,
hear.) It was embodied in the constitution of
the present Court of Directors, and ought to be
extended to this council. The proprietors of India
Stock had hitherto well discharged their duties, and if
necessary the noble lord might increase the number of
that constituency by 4,000, by taking in the retired
officers of the Indian service, both civil and military.
After some remarks from Mr. Dunlop, Mr. Rich,
and Sir H. Verney,
Sir G. C. LEWIS thought the noble lord had done
right in not attempting to engraft a constituency in the
bill, and of limiting the election to a narrow sphere, but
he (Sir G. C. Lewis) did not concur in the limited con-
stituency the noble lord suggested. He considered the
far preferable course would be for the Government to
name the seven members instead of the present Court of
Directors.
Lord A.Y.TE MPEST said various important questions
involved in the resolutions had not yet been discussed,
and he asked her Majesty's Government to give further
time for their consideration. Between this and Monday
was not sufficient time to consider the important ques-
tions involved. He was of opinion that a portion of
the Council should be elected by an independent con-
stituency. He suggested that the future discussion on
this questi on should be taken at the evening sittings.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro-
posed that if the bill be introduced, as he hoped it would
be to-day, to take the second reading at the evening sit-
ting on Thursday next. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON suggested that in the competi-
tive examination for the cadets, there should be a stan-
dard established for each branch, but not a very high
one, up to which they expected the candidates to come.
Lord STANLEY agreed in the main with the sug-
gestion of the noble lord the member for Tiverton.
Mr. ELLICE hoped the house in adopting competi-
tive examinations would not run from one extreme to
another, and lose good officers by requiring too high a
standard of education.
After some remarks from Lord CHURCHILL and Sir
H. WILLODGHPY on examination and finance, the motion
was then withdrawn, and the Chairman reported the
resolutions pro forma, as suggested in the debate, for
the purpose of introducing the bill.
The house suspended its sitting at 10 minutes to four
o'clock.
The house resumed at six o'clock.
MR. COMMISSIONER HARGRENTE.
Sir E. PERRY, seeing the Attorney-General for Ire-
land in his place, was anxious to put a question respect-
ing the Encumbered Estates Court Bill, which was
under discussion for some hours on Tuesday last, and
respecting which the house was precluded, by the late-
ness of the hour, from coming to a division. The ques-
tion he wished to put was, whether her Majesty's Go-
vernment had since considered the matter, and whether
they were still of opinion that it would not be expedient
to retain the services of Mr. Commissioner Hargreave in
the new court, instead of pensioning him off upon his
1 full salary.
Mr. WHITESIDE sail that since the debate to which
the hon. and learned gentleman referred several learned
gentlemen had represented to him that the busines of the
new court would be very heavy, and bad expressed a
desire that Mr. Hargreave should be retained. Under
these circumstances, and believing those statements to
be correct, he begged to say that, so far as he was able
to ascertain, it wets the intention of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to consent to Mr. Hargreave being retained
as a third judge. (Hear, hear.)
THE 100TH REGIMENT.
Mr. CONINGHAM moved for returns of the total
cost of levying the 100th Regiment of the line.
General PEEL assented, but it would be some time
before the returns could be laid upon the table.
The returns were ordered accordingly.
SALE OF COMMISSIONS.
Lord BURGHLEY asked the Secretary of State for
War whether the Commander-in-Chief had the power to
direct the sale on the public accoant of such commis-
sions in the army as are at present disposed of at the
Horse Guards without purchase
Gen. PEEL—In answer to my noble friend, I think
that the General Commanding-is Chief has not the power
to direct the sale of any commissions without the sanc-
tion and authority of the Secretary of State for War.
THE NAVY—BREECH-LOADING RIFLES.
Mr. H. BERKELEY asked the First Lord of the
Admiralty whether, seeing that the marines and small
arms men of the American navy are armed with breech-
loading rifles, by which each man can fire three times
for once from any opponent armed with the old weapon
—whether any steps have been taken to place the naval
forces of Great Britain upon an equality with those of
America!
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he entirely concurred in
what he believed to be the spirit of the hon. gentleman's
question, namely that the marines and seamen of the
British navy ought to be armed in the most efficient
manner, and that any improvements adopted in other
countries should not be lost sight of in this. No breech-
loading rifles had as yet been given out to the British
navy, but trials of those weapons had been going on,
the result of which pointed to the expediency of some
modification. He could assure the hon. gentleman that
the subject would receive the attention it deserved.
DRAINAGE—IRELAND.
On the motion of Mr. LAIRD returns were ordered
showing, in separate sums, the remissions made by the
Treasury (461,9731. 12s. 11d.), under the Act 16 and 17
Vic., c. 130, of moneys advanced f, r arterial drainage
in Ireland to the 31st of March, 1852 ; distinguishing
the localities to which such remissions have been made,
and the parties who were exempted from repayment ;
together with a statetnent of the specific grounds in each
case on which the Treasury exercised the power of re-
mission conferred by the act.
COUNTY COURTS.

On the motion of Sir J.TIZELAWNEY returns were
or lered of the total estimated amount of the fee fund of
the county courts for the year 1857, also the total esti-
mated amount of the salaries of the registrars, and of
salaries and allowances to high bailiff,, respectively
also the names of displaced registrars, and the amount
of annuities by way of compensation granted to each ;
also the names of persons to whom compenswions under
the Act and 10 Vic. c. 95, have been made, and the
amount of compensation paid to each of such persons ;
also the amount of expense for providing court-house 4,
offices, stationary, and printing, o❑ each of the county
court circuit., and the expense of offices in each district
court of each cirouit.
THE INDIAN RESOLUTIONS—BUSINESS OF
THE HOUSE.

Mr. Frrz ROY brought up the report on the Indian
resolutions, which was agreed to.
LnLaoßbilolffotuhnedeEdivapiloEnscrs;th,
o
in the same.
resolutions,LoLr deaSvwN LaEsaYng,di vaetunhdet:lCrg. bringkF N.tcr Ezi abring
0Y were ordered to
Lord STANLEY, amidst much cheering, immediately
brought in the bill entitled Government of India (No. 3)
Bill.
The bill was read a first time, and the second reading
fixed for Thursday evening next.
Sir J. GRAHAM asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer what the business would be to-morrow (this
evening) ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that it was not the intention cf the Government to go
into committee of supply to-tun-row (-his) evening.
They would, in the first place, take the Funded Debt
Dill ; after that the Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill.
someil e cv aisngliuvieryn
hto
adu (beleenrs tra,:ai(dl
at hriettviu
el
ctrio h
ingg
thies aGalwaybsonc
Disfranchisement Bill. Now, he should be very happy
its cuf ion at an
to assist the hon. gentleman who had charge of that
bill by allowing him full tune f ir t
early period, and with that view lie would endeavour t,)
bring that bill also on io_tn„,r,,m (,his,.) di
en
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the Funded Debt B:ll would be the first order of the day
to-morrow.
THE COMMISSIONERSIBSI FOR
BILL. THE EX.HIBITION
OF

On the order of the day for the second reading of this
bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Royal Commissioners, finding themselves in possession
(l: a larga surplus fund from the Exhibition of 1851,
which they were bound by their charter to devote to the
encouragement of science and art, prepared a report on

the causes why snch a sum was not at all equal to the
wealth of this c,untry, and in that report they attributed
the amount of the surplus, only 250,000/. to the want

of system, and the want of space for such exhibitions,
and stated their opinion that the want of system was due
to the want of space. This sum, therefore, was proposed

by the commissioners to be devoted to the purchase of
land, if the Government would consent to add an equal

sum to it for that purpose ; and accordingly a vote was
takmd a sum of 350,0001. was ultimately absorbed

in the purchase of land in the immediate neighbourhood
of Kensington. That course was taken with a view to
the public benefit, and under the direct sanction of

Parliament. That sane year a committee of this house

reported against affording additional room for the recep-

tion of works of art on the present site of the National

Gallery ; and, therefore, a Royal Commission was issued
and reported very much against the present site, and in-
dicated the open spaces in the vicinity of Hyde-park,
which were subsequently purchased as a desirable po=i-

ever, that this bill would be discussed in committee in a

liberal and fair spirit.
Mr. ALCOCK said that if this partnership were to be
dissolved, as he trusted it might be, he thought they ought
not to haggle about the price of the land. (Hear, bear.)
But he certainly thought that every penny of the money
paid by the Treasury ought to be reimbursed to them ;
and secondly, that if this partnership were dissolved, it
ought to he di-s, lved totally and entirely. (Hear.)
Lard J. RUSSELL said he did not doubt that is corn-

mittee the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would explain the various items which had been objected
to in this vote. But he thought the hon. metnberfor North

Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) was mistaken in his view of
this bill. The land in question was purchased partly by a

grant from the public, and partly from the money col-
lected at the Exhibition of 1851. The hon. gentleman

surely did not expect that the Royal Commissioners who
undertook that expenditure, who took the money and laid
it out in this purchase, should be obliged to give up the
land which had been purchased with this money. The
commissioners received this money, which they were con-
sidered to hold in trust, and they were now disposed to
raise the money and repay that which was owing to the
State, and taken from the State, and in the next place to
lay out such a sum as would enable them to pay for the
buildings erected, or to be erected, for the purposes of
science and art, a 3 they might think useful. But the
commissioners could not do these things without dispos-

ing of a portion of the ground, and their purpose was to
use other parts of the land for public buildings. He
thought the proposition cf the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer was a right and fair one. (Hear.)
Mr. J. LOCKE said the buildings would stand upon
ground purchased by the Royal Commissioners, and if
the partnership was to be dissolved, he thought the
buildings would have to go with the land. If he under-
stood the proposition, it was that 60,0001. should be set
apart by the commissioners, and to be repaid in diminu-
tion of the capital expended by the house. If that were
so, instead of getting interest on their capital, they
would not get back the capital itself. He thought they
should net have any further connection with the land.
Toe Royal Commissioners hod improved the land, and
now that the partnership was to be dissolved, they would
be entitled to the whole value of it, and also the build-
ings upon it, and in his opinion it would be well to let
the comerii,sioners take those buildings off their hands.
The project was that of the commissioners, and not that
of the State. He had divided against the expenditure of
this public money, and he should now call for an entire
dissolution. (Hear.)
Mr. DRUMMOND said whenever they discussed the
subject of buildings for national purposes, be always
found great confusion in the minds of hon. members as
to the objects for which they were required. Hon. mem-
bers coupled together two things, which were wholly
dissimilar—science and art. (Laughter.) In science
everything was capable of demonstration, but in art
nothing was capable of demonstration. In science the
country had a direct interest—take for instance, the
Geological Museum in Piccadilly, which was the best
school of mines in the country ; but had that to do with
art ? This confusion caused great mischief amongst
those people who got a sort of reputation for understand-
ing art, though that reputation generally did not last
long. They ought to keep art and science separate, for
the two things were wholly dissimilar.
Mr. CONINGHAM thought this would be simply a
dissolution of partnership in name, so long as there re-
mained any partnership in the buildings. He would
remind the house that the Sheepshanks collection was
at Kensington, and it was a sort of auxiliary to the
National Collection. He confessed that he always
viewed proceedings with regard to this matter with the
greatest suspicion. As to the National Gallery remain-
ing in Trafalgar-square, he felt quite satisfied, but he
should divide against the clause which in any way con-
tinued the objectionable partnership between the com-
missioners and the State.
Mr. ADDERLEY wished to remind the house that
the Royal Commissioners were constituted in 1851, long
subsequent to the date when the partnership between
science and art was commenced. The money now to be
repaid was advanced by the Government to enable the
commissioners to purchase the property, and the part-
nership then commenced might bo dissolved, although
the Government would retain a portion of the land for
national purposes. It would be impossible to hand over
everything to the commissioners. The schools esta•
blished by the Government had greatly benefited the
nation, and trade had been promoted. He would remind
the house that this debate was departing fcceu the rules
of the house ; and a discussion on this subject would be
much more regular when he brought before the house
the condition of this branch of education.
Lord ELCHO said he merely rose to say that he
thought the Government had come to a wise decision in
not removing the National Gallery from Trafalgar-
square ; it was desirable that the house should clearly
understand the subject before they gave up their power
of retaining this site, which might be useful for national
purposes.
Mr. COWPER thought they could not give up the
schools which were established in 1839, and which had
been extended over the country. if they gave up these
buildings they could have to find others for these schools,
and it should be remembered that Mr. Sheepshanks
gave his collection to the country on condition that
it should be deposited at Kensington. To remove
that collection would be a breach of trust. He
thought that this department had afforded a most valua-
ble stimulus to our domestic manufactures, particularly
in respect to ornamental designs, in which this country
had hitherto been very
.much behind ; at the present
time, however, so much progress had been made in this
respect that persons who had the direction of the art
schools in Franca had signified their intention of copy-
ing some portions of our system which they considered
better than their own. (Hear, boar.)
Mr. W. EWA RT thought it highly gratifying that
the central salved of art which had been established now
extended its ramifications throughout the country.
Mr. AYRTON said that in the selection of the present
site for the museum —namely, Kensington—the labour-
ing classes, for whose benefit it professed to have been
established, had in no way been consulted. Those per-
sons lived at the east end of London, and he thought it
absurb to place the museum at Kensington. He con-
tended that it ought to be got rid of altogether, with a
view of establishing it in a more central part of the
metropolis, so as that it might be within reasonable dis-
tance of those who devoted their lives to the pursuits
which the institution was specially intended to foster.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERESFORD-HOPE expressed his concurrence
in the observations of the hon. member for the Tower
Hamlets (Mr. Ayrtou) ; but until some other and, for
the working classes, more convenient museum was found,
the collections of art had better be kept at Brompton.
Mr. WILSON said that the bill would in no way
prevent the House of Commons from deciding at a
future period for the removal of the collection now at
Kensington to any other locality—(hear, hear) ;—it
merely provided for the ultimate and permanent settle-
ment of the partnership, but it was necessary that the
House of Commons should retain an interest in the land,
or they would sacrifice to the Commissioners of the
Royal Exhibition all that they had already expended on
the buildings.
After a few word from Mr. A. SMITH,
Mr. F. CROSSLEY said it had been stated that
trade and manufactures were very much indebted to
those schools for designs. As a person who had con-
siderable experience in that matter, he could say they
were perfectly useless. The pupils when asked to pro•
duce designs were perfectly at sea. As usual, the
Government made the worst hand of anything which
they undertook. It would be better to leave manufac-
turers to themselves, and save the country this mere
loss of money laid out on men on high salaries to teach
these schools.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured
the house that there was no connection between the
Royal Commissioners and these schools of design. He
was responsible for the arrangement on which this bill
had been founded. The commissioners, of course, were
quite willing to give up all the money ; but then
they would have required the Government to give
np all the land, and to find museums, and galleries, and
schools for the Sheepshanks and other collections, and
that the Government were not in a position to do.
That, therefore, was the reason why he had introduced
the second clause into the bill. The sum which had
been mentioned was as near as possible the original price
paid for the building. Notwithstanding the passing of
this bill, the commissioners would still continue to carry
into effect the purposes for which they had been consti-
tuted. There would be ornamental grounds and gardens
equal in extent to the enclosed part cf St. James's-park,
and there would be museums and galleries ; but all that
would now be done by private resources, and would, to
some extent, be self-supporting.
The bill was then read a second time.
h
nwuienipheirptsaaetaf,teese
srete:hodnwnec
ifettoohhpritseroert bigaltitaalhi
tlro.ednpteuooxrfji
psototi
joint-
stock THE JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACTS
AMENDMENT tiJI.L.
Theiw r. a
sh WILSONo
intendedu e w went
etslnht
stei t
ton, intowhgqbaiuened exigencies,
webgnodeiegn ate,
On clause 7,
OR GENERAL said the legislation of
was by no means in a creditable state.
styAsbhtteoaliTanNiactreukhctmeooocufbosinemntothripueeydatinoaceinwxe::
and
they wereual
dt notalthough
aeg
cehtpa.
ithonoengyee
whichtah ne
dr
were t
ah consistent nop
fsuibsttl
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agaowhnbatei
bwll ttaabi
ntii pith
a
he yet hoped that next
n,yetaorrtohdtehurec;ye bawu
generalot
i
all the information requisite on the subject. (Hear.)
In the Act of 1856 certain clauses were inserted to en-
able companies when in difficulty to wind up their affairs
by voluntary act. So far as the shareholders were con-
cerned, that was very convenient. But then a difficulty
arose, for a creiitor might not he content with such a
proceeding, and he might desire to come into Chancery
and have it made compulsory, and that he Cool 1 do. To
remedy that difficulty the Act of 1857 was levied, aid
section 19 of that act provided that where there bad t e ii
an incipient voluntary winding-up, and af er Nal& a
creditor should come before the Court to have a coin-
pulAory winding-up, the Court should be enabled, if the
proceedings theretofore had been fair and just to ail par-
ties, to assume these proceedings instead of superseding
them for the advantage of the creditor. Bu the clause
was so meagre al d so destitute of those prov stens and
that machinery requi ite for giving it elf ct that much
difficulty hail beeen found in carrying it out.
Sir It. BETHELL pointed out the necessity of more
comprehensive legisl.tior, instead of dealing with it by
piecemeal. There was complete antagonism in the law
between compulsory and voluntary winding up, and he
thought it was a state of things which might to be put
an end to. He should not oppose the clause.
Tae
inclusive.
Upon then agreed to, as were also clauses 8
to
Uoon clause 19,
Mr. AYRTON, referring to the great expense which
had attended the British Bank prosiouticns, thought it