The Sun.
London, England, 1867-03-19 00:00:00

representation of the people by the redistribution of seats.
There are only two courses; there is no middle course.
You must either create a new electoral map of England, or

deal practically with the circumstances before you, and
follow the line to which I will for a moment advert, and

which I think the Government will follow. Now, if the

country and the House of Commons do resolve on the first
course, namely, that there shall be a complete revision of
the representative system, so far as electoral localities are

concerned—if I may presume to give advice to the House
of Commons, I will say this, "Do not make that an affair
to be settled by a Parliamentary Reform Bill to be framed

by any Ministry whatever." That is a subject too vast and
deep for us to treat or deal with without a preliminary in-
vestigation pursued by persons of the highest standing,

character, experience, and learning in the country. (hear.)
When you possess their accumulated knowledge, and the

results of their matured thoughts and experience, a popular

assembly may weigh those considerations, and a practical
Ministry may embody those results. There is no other
means by which you can deal with such a question. But
if you are not of opinion that an electoral map of England
is to be reconstructed, then you must proceed prudently
and practically. When you have the opportunity
you must look about and see what places in the country
are not represented that ought to be represented, and you
should not lose sight of that opportunity when offered of
giving to the teeming multitudes of the counties, so far as
as youcan do so, that direct representation which they want
and which indirectly I admit they possess. (Hear, hear.)
These are the two practical points which you ought to have
before you. There is no medium between dealing with the
whole question in a large and solemn manner, adequate to
the great theme and the prudent and practical method I
have indicated. Well, sir, we are not prepared to take the
first course. Ido not say that it is not one worthy of deep
respect and of the national thought, but it is not one which
we are prepared to propose, and therefore we must retain
the prudent and practical proposal I have already described.
We do say that you will find towns in thiscountry which we
think ought to be represented, and whose representatives
would bring fresh vigour to this house. We think also you
ought not to take the opportunities which periodically
offer for dealing with the distribution of political power
without considering always the particular situation of
the counties—that population of the counties invigorated
and vivified by the new franchises you are giving to it—
that population rill demand to be duly represented in
this house; and who can deny their right ? And there-
fore, as far as you can, I think you ought in that direc-
tion to meet the counties, so that they may not be said to
be represented indirectly by the small boroughs, but by
direct representation as far as possible. But these things
can only be done gradually. I am of opinion that any
violent disturbance of our representative system, so far
as redistribution of seats is concerned, is highly to be
deprecated. Whatever you do in this matter your re-
presentation must be fairly distributed over the country,
and if by any chance you force a distribution which would
give a great preponderance to one part of the kingdom at
the expense of the other, you would in effect create two
nations, and there would be a want of sympathy and cor-
diality between the parts, and thus you would subvert tho
principle of nationality. Therefore, so far as we are con-
cerned, although I have read these names before, still as
there was one omission, and as it is becoming an occasion
like this, I hope the house will allow me to read the names
of the places which we propose to enfranchise. We pro-
pose, out of the 36 seats which will be obtained by themode
which! before detailed to the house, that members shall be
conferred on Hartlepool, Darlington, Burnley, Staleybridge,
St. Helen's, Dewsbury, Barnsley, Middlesborough, Wed-
nesbury, Croydon, Gravesend, Torquay, two members for
the Tower Hamlets, and one member to the London
University. The counties we wish to divide are North
Lancashire, North Lincolnshire, West Kent, West Surrey,
Middlesex, South Staffordshire, South Devonshire, and
South Lancashire. I have now placed before the house
the provisions of the bill which I ask leave to introduce.
I will not detain the house with petty details of the ques-
tion of the electoral franchise or the redistribution of
seats. The bill will be in the hands of hon. members to-
morrow, and they will be prepared to form an opinion as to
the manner in which the provisions are to be carried out.
I hope the house will candidly consider this measure. So
far us we are concerned we have spared no pains, no
thought, and we have not shrunk from what was of still
more importance to us, perhaps, in endeavouring to bring
it before the house. I will not advert to the circumstances
unnecessarily under which the measure is now brought be-
fore the house—under very great difficulties and very great
sacrifioes. Ido not wish to disguise the fact, that I have
felt great chagrin and great mortification ; but I believe I
have done my dnty—(Ministerial cheers)—and under the
circumstances I do not think I could have acted otherwise
than I have done. (Hear.) We have, in attempting to bring
it to this point, lost colleagues whom we more than re-
garded. We had to appeal to a high-spirited party to make
what no doubt was to a certain extent a sacrifice of prin-
ciple, much of sentiment, and much sacrifice of interests.
But we have not appealed in vain, because they were ani-
mated by the same feeling which influenced us—a sense of
duty and of conviction that the time had arrived when this
question must be dealt with, and, if possible, extensively
and completely. (Cheers.) Ido hope, therefore, the t the
house will approach the consideration of this measure in
the same spirit as that which actuates her Mejesty's Go-
vernment, who believe that it is one which, if adopted in
its spirit, will settle long differences, and that it is calcu-
lated to meet the requirements of the country. lam told
by some, and the objection will probably be repeated—and
I must remind the louse of the distinction we draw be-
tween popular rights and democratic demands —I may be
told that the measure, in providing a system of checks and
counterpoises, tends still further to interpose the barriers
of clam. If it is a measure which involves checks and coun-
terpoises, we live under a constitution whose boast it is
that it is made up of checks and counterpoises. (Hear..
And why should we conceal from ourselves that this
country is peculiarly one of class composition ? And o
class it ever will remain. (Hear, hear.) What we desire
to do is to give to all worthy of having the privilege con-
ferred a fair share in the government of this country, so
far as that may be attained by the expression of a vote ;
but at the same time we are equally anxious to maintain
the principles on which the constitution is based, end in
proposing amendments to prevent the preponderance of
any class, and to give representation to the nation. I beg
to move for leave to introduce a bill to amend the repre-
sentation of the people. The right hon. gentleman, who
concluded his speech about 20 minutes past 6 o'clock, re-
sumed his seat amidst loud and continuous Ministerial
cheers.

Mr. GLADSTONE, who rose amidst general cheers
from the Liberal side of the House, said : Sir, in any
words which may fall from me on this occasion it will be
as far as possiblo from my intention to impugn the state-
ment of tho right hon. gentleman that he has been acting
under circumstances of great difficulty, and that he has
followed a course which he believed.to bo his duty. (Hear,
hear.) Neither is it my intention to prejudge the question
what course it may be right for any members of this house
or which I myself may think it right to take with reference
to the measure of the right hon. gentleman. I think that
until we have the bill in our hands---(hear, hear)—and it
is promised that we shall have it in our hands by to-mor-
row—it would be impossible to arrive at any conclusion
such as the important nature of the' question and the
gravity of the circumstances demand. (Hear, hear.) But
having said that, I must at the same time frankly state
that the impression made on my mind by the state-
ment of the right honourable gentleman involves in
several points no inconsiderable perplexity, and is not on
the whole a pleasing ono. We commenced the session in
the hope that some measure would be introduced which
would tend to a settlement of this question. When the
proposal to proceed by way of resolution was substituted
we made no opposition, except by the expression of an
earnest desire that a definite meaning might be attached
to the resolution submitted. When the right hon gentle-
man subsequently presented the skeleton of a bill, no diffi-
culty was raised on this side of the house on principle.
That bill never was in print ; but the statement I made,
which received general assent on this side of the house,
was a hope that when we saw it in print, though we might
have points to raise on its various provisions, these might
be disposed of in committee. I most frankly own that in
this, the fourth state of progress—or I may at least say of
proceeding—the course the right hon. gentleman would
lead us is, to adopt a common expression, still further into
the wood. (Laughter and cheers.) The house will bear
with me if I comment on a few of tho provisions of the
bill so far as we know them, with a duo regard to the cor-
rections of to-morrow. On an ordinary occasion, after
hearing a statement from the representatives of the Ad-
ministration and leader of this house, the course would be
to say little ; but on the present occasion the circumstances
are peculiar. The main particulars of this bill have ob-
tained so remarkable a peculiarity that it has become a duty
to apply the mind to a consideration of the character of the
measure ; aid, therefore, we are the more competent to do
this than if we had been simply dependent on the speech
of the right hon. gentleman on the introduction of the
measure. But three days ago there was a meeting of the
more select spirits in Downing-street, to whom revela-
tions were made of which a portion found its way to us,
the mere mob of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear,
and " oh.") And I must add, as far as my own experi-
ence of five and-thirty years extends of parliamentary
practice, it is rather a novel practice for the Minister of
the Crown to give an exposition of his policy two days
in advance of the information of the House of Commons.
(Repeated cheers from the Liberal party.) I had not in-
tended to make this the subject of remark -("oh")—but
it is justified by the circumstances of the case. This is
an innovation which it is to be hoped will receive more
consideration before it is repeated. (Hear.) We have
1 likewise the advantage I grant of information, and it is of
a still more surprising character than that communicated
two days before made to a most favoured constituency—
(laughter)—so that we have had opportunities for conside-
ration to some considerable extent. And yet, I must say,
that on those points which may be considered of vital im-
portance my mind remains in a state of obscurity and per-
plexity. The right hon. gentleman proposes a £l5 rating
as the basis of the county franchise ; but he forgot that he
told us that the object of his measure was to proceed on a
principle. (Hear, hear.) I was araaz 0, and I may Bay

amused, on looking back on the proceedings of last session
to find him rest on rating as a criterion and measure of the

subject. I pass the question of the redistribution of seats,
which, without any great difficulty, 1 think may be dis-
cussed hereafter, and may not unsatisfactorily be dealt with
in detail. I may pass the collateral extensions—l mean the
exceptional franchises, as those on education or the posses-
sion of .£3O in the funds and savings banks—in which
there, for some reason, has been an extension of the quell-
_

fication without any discussion now of the principle ; but
I cannot pass the subject without a single remark, that if
I fully believe that they are proposed by the right hon.
gentleman in good faith, I must decline to accept his
figures. (Hear, hear.) Whatever may bo said on the
character of these franchises, I cannot help looking on the
numbers estimated as visionary, as so many men in buck-
ram. The vital and central point is the borough franchise,

and to that I will confine the remarks which I feel myself
called upon to makb. Tho right hon. gentleman has pro-
pounded to us to-night—after a preface in which he dealt
in general terms, and I think very unexceptionably for
the most part, with the subject of the British constitu-
tion—a theory which I confess to me is wholly novel :

that the great security of this venerable constitution,
which has so long been the glory of England and the ad-
miration of the world," if 1 may be permitted to borrow
these words, which are really common property, as they end
one or more speeches at every public dinner in the coun-
try— (laughter)—this constitution depends on what the
right hon. gentleman calls the principle of rating. And he
said that the House of Commons last summer by its uner-
ring instiact—(a laugh)—and without knowing it—(laugh-
ter) - established this great principle of rating. (Laughter.)
And why did the House of Commons " take a leap in the
dark," if I may avail myself of a phrase very common last
year, in order to arrive at this blind result? By adopting
the motion made by my friend the member for Galway
(Lord Dunkellin), the effect of which was that the basis of
the franchise ought to be founded on admitting to the con-

stituency any men who were rated to the relief of the poor,
and who paid their rates. (Opposition cheers.) These are
the two columns of the constitution—(laughter)—and these
two columns of the constitution were built up on the night
when my noble friend succeeded in defeating the Govern-
ment. (Hear, and laughter.) I will venture to assert that
the motion of the member for Galway had no more to do
with the putting out of their places !hese columns of the
constitution than chalk has to do with cheese. (Laughter.)
The motion of the member for Galway simply provided
that the pecuniary measure of the franchise should be
founded on rateable value, instead of gross estimated rental.
(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side.) It would be per-
fectly indifferent to that motion whether a man was rated
or not- (hear)—and under the terms of the noble lord I
will undertake to get rid of all personal liability to rating
and all obligation to pay rates. This was not all. This
was distinctly stated in the debate—stated by me at the
commencement—and was admitted and understood by all
who took part in that debate ; and yet the right hon. gen-
tleman has now discovered that which was contrary to the
sense of every person who paid attention to the matter
then in hand—the right hon. gentleman has discovered
that the House of Commons, without its own know-
ledge by " unerring instinct," was led to make an affirma-
tion that it did not understand, and that we did not un-
derstand, on the great principles of the British Constitu-
tion. (Laughter.) The truth is, this is a very grave
question ; it is a question which involves a great deal of
dry detail, but upon this question depends the entire plan
of the right hon. gentleman. He says that he is going to
enfranchise 237,000 persons who are rated to the poor, and
who pay their rates, and he insists upon taking the gross
numbers in each class, quite irrespective of the fact that
some, whom these numbers include, are upon the register
already; that others, whom these numbers include, cannot
possibly get upon the register, because they have not been
rated the requisite time; and that others again, whom
they include, are naturally and ordinarily, on account of
poverty, excused from payment of rates. The right hon.
gentleman has certainly shown great tact in marching out
on paper his army of 237,000 men. They include a large
number of freemen.
Mr. BRIGHT-26,000.
Mr. GLADSTONE—And a very large number of per-
sons in that class of life who cannot be registered on ac-
count of the rapidity of their migration, therefore making
the iesidonces more restricted to that class than to those

above them. I will venture to say those. 237,000 do not,
in fact, amount to 140,000 when we have reduced the gross
number to the nett. When you recollect the difference be-
tween the 644,000 on the register and rated under 410, and
the 450,000 who are actually on the register, you Must at
once perceive my meaning. An enfrauchising of about
130,000 persons is the real, certain, and immediate effect of
the plan of the right hon. gentleman ; but is the effect only
so long as the plan of the right hon, gentleman occupies the
foundation of what he considers to be the British consti-
tution. I was astounded when I heard the right hon.
gentleman talk down bodily from the pedestal on which
he had set himself, and deal with the case of the compound
householder. He said the compound householder was
as good a man as anybody else, that he was equally
comi.etent to enjoy the franchise and to fulfil its
duties, and that it was not the fault of the compound
householder, but the fault of the community among which
ha lived, that deprived him of the position for which he
paid his rates. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, says the right
hon. gentleman, we will give the compound householder
ever facility, and he bodily- proceeded to place upon his list
of enfranchised citizens the 486,000 who do not pay rates,
and who come under the description of compound house-
holders. (Hear, hear.) If that be right, where is the
principle of the British constitution ? (A laugh.) What
is the value of rating, and what is the privilege of the man
who discharges the duties of a citizen, when they sot up
these ratepayers, and still say that those who are not rate-
payers ought just as much to be enfranchised? (No, no.)
Several gentlemen opposite say "No." (Hear, hear.) If
they will give me a little time, I am coming to their way
of thinking— (hear, hear)—and to their mode of construing
the speech of the right hon. gentleman. I have followed
him through two phases of that speech—the first, in which
he describes this principle of rating as the basis of the
British constitution ;, and the second, in which he
humanely takes up the cudgels on behalf of the compound
householder, who, he says, is as good a man as anybody
else, and to whom a vote ought to be given. I will now
endeavour to make an approximate estimate of the plan,
though on some parts of it I am afraid there will be diffi-
culty in construing it, even when we get the bill to mor-
row morning. The compound householders are to have
every facility for being registered. The meaning of that
is, that the name of every compound householder, should
be upon the rate-book, and when it is on the rate-book,
and they are in possession of the qualification that others
enjoy, their names should be carried on to the register.
(Hear, hear.) That, in my opinion, is the means of afford-
ing facilities to compound householders. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman says the compound householder
must make a claim, he must insert his name, and he must
pay his rates. (Loud cheers on the Conservative
side.) lam astounded. (Great laughter.) lam astonished
at those gentlemen. (Cheers.) lam surprised at that ma-
nifestation. You say it is the duty of the compound
householder to go and pay to the parish officer the rate
which he has already paid in his rent to the landlord.
(Hear, hear, from the Opposition, and No, no, from the Mi-
nisterial side.) You say that he must. (No, no.) Then you
do not say so. lam very well pleased. (Ironical cheers.)
Then he ought not to pay his rates. What, then, is the
meaning of this provision ? lam afraid the meaning of it
is this. Perhaps it is that the compound householder is to
be fined in respect of the difference of the rate which he is
bound to pay under the landlord's agreement and that
which he should have to pay as an ordinary ratepayer.
Whether he does that or not, I know very well, unless the
right hon. gentleman will adopt the perfectly simple method
I have pointed out, and which may be read in the bill of
last year, his plan comes to this: it comes to be a double
process, varying absolutely in different towns of the coun-
try as far as black from white, and depending wholly on
the views taken by the local authorities. Has the right
hon. gentleman examined the returns which have been in
his hands for a week, or may be a year ? I mean the re-
turns for the borough of Lambeth. He will find in the
parish of Lambeth 5,781 compound occupiers on the Parlia-
mentary register. But go to St. Gilee's, Camberwell, and we
find this passage in the Parliamentry blue book, at page 52
—I am afraid be has not read it carefully— this: That there
are 4,921 tenements above a .£lO rental which are rated to
the owners instead of the occupiers; and that there are at
present only five of such occupiers on the register. Why
is that the case ? Are the people of St. Giles's, Camber-
well, selfish and indifferent to political privilege, whereas
the people of Lambeth are so animated by the holy fire
of patriotism that 5,781 of them have been to the over-
seers and insisted on taking all the pains of inserting
their names on the register ? Not at all. It is be-
cause a different process is pursued by the local autho-
rities of one parish, and they placed 5,781 on the list of
voters, whereas in the last only five compound house-
holders are so placed. Am Ito bo told at this time of day,
after all the stages we have passed through—after turning
over and over and over again this question—and after
parting with three colleagues because, forsooth, those col-
leagues were not willing to accept the bill you now propose
—that we are to end in adopting legislation which affects
two-thirds of the whole number of persons about whose
enfranchisement there is a question below £lO in value—
a system under which it is evident it depends upon the
pure and simple discretion of a parish officer Whether a man
is enfranchised or not, as he pleases ? (Cheers.) I think,
when gentlemen see that this is the operation of the pre-
sent system, they will readily follow me, at any rate, to
this conclusion—that this is a matter which it is totally
impossible for us to leave at the discretion and command
of parochial authorities. (Hear, hear.) But is the right
hon. gentleman going to take it out of their discretion ?
Aye? Does the right hon. gentleman mean to provide
that these 5,000 persons shall be put upon the register in
the one parish as they are in the other? If he does, well.
But then it is most important we should know with regard
to the view we are taking, and his speech has thrown no
light on that whatever, because he has not told us whether
these men are—in fact, I think he has told us the con-
trary—to go through the same process themselves of being
' fined ; because, in point of fact, call it what you like—we
are now speaking in a great measure of the labouring
deuces--it is uoithor more nor less than a lino on the la.