The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-24 00:00:00

LONE ON, SATURDAY E V EfIVIN"G, APRIL - 24, 1-858

day that this was the age of coups-de-main, and coups-de-
main were much the same in one country as another. They
had one on the 14th of last February, when the country
thought they bad the strongest Government that had
existed since the time of Mr Pitt, but woke up on the
15th and found they had no Government at all. Things
changed fast in these days, and as from hints which he
had just heard from the other side he lir eriels t he perceived
at least a tenlency on the part of the house to take upon
itself the functions of the execativo, he thought it might
not be out of place to ask what was the amount of force
by which we were to be defended, what was its destina-
tion, and what the general arrangements were for placing
it in the most effective condition ? He objected to
standing armies, considering them to be the great curse of
Europe at the present moment. They not only drained
the strength and wealth of tee country from the right
direction to the wrong, but provoked the same evils in all
neighbouring countries. (Hear.) That was not all ; it
re-acted upon us in another way. Every invention for the
destruction of mankind which was made or adopted in one
of those foreign countries we were obliged to take up also.
For instance, some years ago the Americans built a large
class of ships, as large as our 64's, which they called frigates
—and when the war broke out, taking them to be frigates,
our Government very stupidly sent out frigates which were
not much more than half their size to meet them. The
consequence was that great loss and discredit befel our
navy. We were therefore compelled to increase the size
of our ships. It was the same with the Mir i 3 rifle. We
were obliged to follow their lead in the adoption of that
weapon. Now he was told that America was building
war ships as large as the Leviathan ; and for what ? For
the servi..e of America ? Certainly not. But did they
suppose that there was no power in Europe that would
buy them? The other day he saw an account of another
new invention—a double-barreled rifle ; of course we must
have them too. An extraordinary gun had been invented
at Newcastle, anti we should doubtless have to introduce
that. There was another thing : if these large standing
armies were kept up, you must give them the means of
fighting ; for, like a pack of hounds, if you kept them
shut up, and did not give them blood sometimes, they
were not worth a farthing. (Hear, hear.) Standing
armies must have war, for it was the trade
they lived by, and it was in their interest to do all they
could to promote it. He remembered a story of a party
who, dining at the Thatched House, heard a great noise
in the room overhead, and on sending for the waiter
and inquiring what it was all about, were answered,
" Oh, it's only a party of physicians who have been dining
upstairs, and they are now drinking the low fever with
three times three. (I laugh.) Aud the soldier, in the same
way, was always ready to hail that which was the greatest
curse to the rest of inankind as his best friend. There was
one large portion of the population of every continental
nation that was ever anxious for war, and ready to do all
in its power to provoke it. But, beyond that, he could
give them proof of what ho believed a large class of per-
sons but little suspected— namely, that of all people in the
world the English were the most hated on the Continent.
What was the cause he would not attempt to explain, but
the fact was so. Yet, knowing all this—knowing, as we
ought to know, how we were hated, we were nevertheless
going on from day to day irritating our nearest neigh-
bours, and insulting them in public and iu private. This
was habitual with us, but did aa °suppose they would stand
it ? (Hear, and a laugh.) We kept a den of assassins, who
were let loose upon our neighbours as opportunity offered.
Of course, we were entitled to have any amusements we
liked, hut it was well to remember what they cost. But it
was said foreign Governments had no just cause of complaint
against us in this matter. But was it so ? We were in this
like Nell Gwyunes fa t lan, who did rot mind the thing of
which he was charged, but was very much annoyed at being
told of it. (Hear, and a laugh.) It must be recollected
that this den of assassins we were thus upholding and pro-
tecting in this country was no new people. They were the
hereditary descendants of those who first began the same
game in 1793—those who began by declaring that they
would make war upon every people in Europe who did not
as they had done—kill their king. In 1839 a very remark-
able French State paper was issued, in which it was stated
" The assassination of kings in general, and of him in
particular whom France has placed upon the throne, is
preached by those persons as a sacred duty. And the idea
of the Government which is reserved for France, and by
which they meant to redress the abuses of monarchy, is
the republic of 1793 and the reign of ter] or." In the fol-
lowing year there was found upon the unhappy man who
had just been executed secret instructions given to Lim
from this country, which really meant nothing less than
assassination; and it was said, " We know you can't get
arms ; they won't let you have arms ; then let each man
make use of his knife and assassinate a sentinel, and thus
you will get ernes. Let the country, however, continue
to encourage this den of assassins if it pleased, only let
them remember what they would have to pay for it in the
end. In 1819 a body of these men went to Malta, and Mr.
Hume made a complaint to the Colonial Minister—Lord J.
Russell—he believed—one of these people having been sent
away from the island by the Governor. Iu his answer the
noble lord called them itinerant revolutionists, whom the
Government would not allow to remain at Malta. For his
(Mr. Drummond's) part, he could not understand how,
consistently, the Government could allow them to re-
main anywhere else. In 1855 one of those persons wrote a
letter to the Queen so grossly insulting that there wag
hardly any passage fit to quote, and he referred to it
merely to show that there was one uninterrupted course
going on from year to year, and that in short these men
were purely what might be called political Thugs. Did we
suppose that the Emperor of the French would allow us to
go on harbouring these people here ? He was not standing
up as the protector of the Emperor of the French, but he
entreated the house to have the common sense to put this
country in such a state of defence that we might at least
be able to defy those we persisted in insulting. ( Hear.) So
far as he knew, the conduct of his Imperial Majesty to-
wards this country had always been frank and open, and
he knew he lied said " it is neither my interest nor incli-
nation to make war upon you ; but this danger I see—you
may irritate my people and my army to such an extent that
they may be so strong that I cannot keep them back." (A
laugh.) The bon. gentletna. a opposite laughed—long might
he laugh in ignorance —but, nevertheless he hoped there
were others present who took a cams and serious view of
the question. He was not suggesting that a great standing
army should he kept up —far from it ; he thought that in
all probability we had kept up too large a standing army
--but he wished to show that we possessed within our-
selves the power of effectual defence. He would not weary
the house bygoiog into diet till of this power—but of course
he meant the militia. He complained that this force was
not called out, and asked if the officers were not kept to-
gether how Was the staff to be kept in, an effective state.
The Lord-Lieutenant of every county ought to have full
information of the force which at any time he could call
into action, and of the number of waggons an I horses
available at a moment's natio,' for service. These arrange-
ments should be made at once, and not left until it was
too late. We could hardly hope to maintain friendship
with other powers while we took no steps to put down those
who preached the right of murdering kings in the abstract
- -(a laugh)—for that was the defence the other
day. While we kept people here to preach that doctrine,
depend upon it, if the opportunity offered, all the sove-
reigns of Europe would join against us - -and serve us right.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) We had attacks i a great
people. Much had been said about the doctrine of Civic
Romanus ; but the doctrine we were now contending for
was a great deal worse—it was the doctrine of Lingua Ito-
menus—the right to preach doctrines utterly subversive of
the governments of other countries, and utteily subversive
of peace and order. But whatever we did in this respect
he advised the house at all events to take care that our
moms of defence were effective. (Hear, hear.)
General FEEL understood the appeal made to him was
that he should make some general statement in explana-
tion of the estimates, and being too sensible of the indul-
gence he had experienced at the hands of the honk) to op-
pose himself to their wishes, he would make that statement
before asking for the next vote. There was no wish to
hurry through the army estimates, and every opportunity
would be afforded for the fullest discussion.

Mr. HORSMA.N observed the complaint was that the
hon. and gallant officer was departing from the established
practise cf moving these estimates without making an ex-
planatory statement.
Mr. SMYTHE complained of the summary and arbi-
trary manner in which certain regiments of militia had been
disembodied. Last autumn a number of regiments had been
embodied, and the commanding officers expecting that the
same notice of disembodiment would be given as at the
close of the war, viz., three months, took great pains to get
their regiments up to a state of efficiency and discipline;
but so far as his own command went he received an order
about a week ago from Gen. Scarlett, accompanied by a
letter stating that Government had resolved to disembody
sixteen regiments, and that which he (Mr. Smythe) com-
manded and another in the same district were to be disem-
bodied by the lst of May. Oninquiry he found that those
regiments were selected for disembodiment which had not
contributed their quota of volunteers to the line—viz., 17
per cent. on their respective strengths. But his regiment
hail, by the 13th April, contributed more than its quota,
and he found that others which had not contributed their
quota of recruits had been retained. After referring to the
hardship of sending the men to their homes at so short a
notice, which afforded them no time fur communicating
with their friends and obtaining employment, he asked the
Government to reconsider their decision with the view- of
diminishing the number of regiments to be reduced. If
they persisted in the order that had been given, he b.ilieved
that not one-fourth or one-fifth of the men would be forth-
coming when they were wante I.
Lord BURGHLEY also urged the Government to recon-
sider their decision.

Col. B. KNOX said that the whole onus of disembody-
ing the militia, which it was the intention of the late Go-
vernment to have done, ought not to be laid on the present
Minister for War. The militia had hem retained longer
than they might have been, in the hepe that many of the
men would be absorbed in the regular army. He trusted
that the militia would not be rendered disc,ntented by
similar treatment to that which they had receieed after
the late war. They ought not to bs sent to their homes
at a time when they could not procure work, en I the Scotch
regiments ought to have been disembodied before the time
when labourers were hired in Scotland. As the present
Minister for War did not frame the estimates, ho ought
not to be called on to make a statement of the grounds on
which they wore founded.
Mr. HORSILAN explained that be had only said he
hoped the right hon. and pliant gentleman would make
the usual statement which was made by the head of his
department.
Col. NORTH had hoped that the Government would
have retained the services of tho militia. He had com-
manded a regiment of militia at. the ch se of the last war,
and he had brought before the house the conduct of the
Government to.vards the militia, the abrupt manner in
which they had been treated, and how little regard was
ahows to those regiments who had volunteered;to servo and
had served abroad. A soldier to be of any value must be
disciplined, and that could not be do:e in a short tame;
and therefore he thought the country would be benefited,
' if instead of disembodying 16 regiments of militi . the
rtrongth of these regiee,nts was only . edeced so as to 'form
hereafter a nucleus for raising them to their full force.
Mr. RICH hoped that the Minister f ,r War would enter
steorii.t)nleyerouni,tihnae„ gantdierel fillingctuelsltpiotnhoef militiaitigeriar
rrniya. refer:e rbi eel-
lievtd that rAurus in the War-office -wou'd show thA the
militia had not proved so fruitful a nurse y for the line as
had been exp, a ed. Desertions fi ter the militia were very
frr,egqi
tuneenutt,
aafntderatahstlrtiootoubfsetrtr,oade was made of enlisting in one
ment were not ewhileulist intlt et
hile'leitn line. If ' nlifn the e:ch
militial..i-
Iwas called em leeenanently, as it was in the het wer, it
would be an eff,cti% e 'force, but it w‘ It'd not be so on the
system now pursued. Ile auggested that soldiers o: the
line leaving after tea yours' service ought to have 61.
a (by given them to enrol themselves in a kind of res. ry d
force, which could be called out on as emergency, and
would afford an ex..ellent force of experienced soldiers.
If we were to have a militia, he thought a local militia
, was a better reserve than that which now existed.
I He hoped the Minister for War would either go into the
llie, I,est
question of the militia himself or let a committee o.f. the
house be appointed to ascertain how the army co
nrl how we Gould hs, 4. e
bbeetrteererreniseerdve fromforce thi en
Sir DE L. EVANS said he believed that the militia
tit eilitia county.at

furnished a very considerable number of men to the line,
and if there was a necessity for it they would come as
readily into the line as they did in the last war. An hon.
member bad expressed his alarm at trusting to the militia
in case of invasion, but he (Sir De L. Evans) would have
the greatest confidence in that force in such a case. Ho
could not find that fault with the militia which some hon.
tnem ben did. It w:-Li a constitutional force, and was found
to be very efficient at the time of the Peninsular war. He
regretted that the Minister of War bad not taken warning
trona the objections that were made in so many quarters to
the conduct of the late Government when they disembodied
the militia after the late war. There was a mutiny in a re-
giment in Ireland, tha men of which had their coats taken
off their backs, and were dismissed without a farthing in
their pockets. The present Government said that the mili-
tia was called out not by them but by the late Government
but he maintained that the present Government was bound
legally and morally, as well as by policy, to act in the same
way towards that force as if they had raised it themselves.
The subaltern officers of the militia had been put to great
expense six months ago, in equipping themselves, and it
was hard upon them to be put out of employment. It was
impolitic to treat a force like this with neglect, having re-
gard to its usefulness as a means of securing the safety and
the defence of the country. He did not think that any mi-
litary functionary in the Government had allowed the step
~f disembodying the militia; it was less the act of the Mi-
nister of War than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
sought to eke out his cheeseparing budget by getting rid
of 16 regiments of militia. The militia force at present,
looking to the recruits it had obtained, was in a better con-
dition than the line.

Lord PALMERSTON was glad to bear the testimony
borne by the hon. and gallant gentleman who had just sat
down to the efficiency of the militia force; his testimony was
of the highest value, and he was sure that it would not
only gratify the militia, but be most satisfactory to the
country to have such an opinion from. so high en authority
on the subject But he (Lord Palmerston) must protest
against the doctiiue, so currant iu the house and the coun-
try, that the chief object of the militia was to supply re-
cruits to the line. lie hold that to be a mistake, and a per-
version of the object fur which the militia was established.
It was very creditable to the militia when they supplied
recruits to the line, and we ought to be vete, thankful
to the officers and the men who made such sacrifices as
they did when they volunteered into the line, for it was
obvious that it was the bast men who went into it, and it
was a sacrifice of the feelings of the commanding officer to
part with them. In momenta of emergency it was highly
desirable for the country and creditable to the militia
force that they should enlist in the line ; but it ought to
be remembered that the object of a militia was that we
should have a dormant force ready to be called out on a
sudden emergency, and fit to take its part on that erner-
iency. 'We might be attacked by a force larger than the
1,0,00) men of the regular army in this country, audit was
important that we should have 80,000, 90,t00, or 103,00 J
men of the militia, officered, equipped, armed, clothed,
and to a certain extent disciplined, and ready to be called
out at a fortnight's notice for the defence of the country.
He wished to impress on the house not to judge of the
militia force by the number of recruits it had given to the
line Still they had furnished a great many men to the
army during the late war, and now since they had been
called out they had furnished a largo number of recruits
to the line. The state of the case now was this —when last
year we were obliged to send a large force to India, in fact
the grater part of the force in this country, the Govern-
ment told the house, and the house felt the force of it,
that it was not safe to leave the United Kingdom stripped
of all armed force, and that a ready means of supplying
the deficiency in our army was by calling out the militia.
The Government was urged to call out the whole of the
militia, bet they only called out a part. It was understood
that they were called out for the emergency, and when by
the progress of recruiting, so honourable us it had proved
to have been to the feeling of the country, the regular
army was restored to its efficiee.cy, it was naturally the in-
tention of the present, as it was that of the late govern-
ment to disembody such of the militia as were no longer
necessary ; and when it was said that it was the Chancellor
of the Exchequer who forced this stop on the head of the
army, it must be remembered that if a larger number of
men were kept in arms than the revenue enabled you to
pay, two courses only were open—you must either in-
crease the revenue or reduce the number of men. He
certainly thought that if the alternative before him was
the keeping up an excessive number of men or erecting
works for the defence of the country, such as the fortifica-
tion of our dockyards and the providing barracks for our
troops, he had no doubt that the wisest application of the
revenue would ba, not to keep up a great number of men
in arms, but to apply it to the erection of defensive works.
Mr. B. JOHNSTONE did not complain of the disembo-
diment of the militia, which it was understood would take
place when the temporary purpose for which they were
called out was answered, but he contented that it was
never intended that it should be carried out in the way in
which it hail been done, especially in the manner in which
it was applied to his regiment, which would be sent home
at a time when it was impossible for the men to obtain
work in Scotland. If the matter turned on a financial
question, it might be arranged to the satisfaction of the
militia, and the 10,000 men which it was desired to reduce
might be reduced by sending the married rnen of the dif-
ferent regiments horns, and not by breaking up the whole
force. He had received an assurance from the Secretary
for War that hie regiment was not to be disembodied,
and yet, to his surprise, it was one of the first that received
the order.

General PEEL said that, after the appeal ma le to him
on behalf of the militia, he must bo allowed to state the
grounds on which the disembodiment had taken place. The
noble lord opposite (Palmerston) had fully stated the ac-
tual necessity there was, looking to the terms on which it
had been embodied, that a certain number of the militia
should be disembodied. Twenty•five thousand men of the
militia were called out in September to fill the gap caused
be the number of regular regiments which wore sent to
India. The rank and file of the army in the United King-
dom was thou 49,000. When the present government came
into office the militia numbered 30,000 rank and file, an,l
the army 70,000, co that there wan an increase of 30,600
rum b ayond what was expected. Only 150,000/. was voted
for the militia; it was paid to 30,030 mon of which that
force was composed, and there being no further sum ap-
plicable to that force it became necessary to disembody
some of them. The principle on which it was proposed to
proceed was to retain in an embodied state those regiments
which lied given their quota of men to the line, :lad yet
remained in full force, and secondly, to retain those who
had given most of their quota to the line, and also remained
effective, and to disembody all the others. He was respon-
sible for that areangement. Almost every colonelof militia
had adiressed him on the subject, and he should have beets
happy to have obliged them by not disembodying their re-
gimests, but he was bound to acton the principle which had
been laid down. He senate the Horse Guards fora list of
the regiments embraced hy that principle, and without
looking at it he ordered it to be acted on. Complaints had
been made of the suddenness with which the disembodi-
ment had been carried out ; but militia were paid up to the
first of evrey month, and if they were not disembodied by
the let of May there would be great confusion in the ac-
counts. Thera was another object in view, which was to
keep up the number of troops which ha 1 been voted, and
which had not yet bean attained. It had been said that ou
the last occasion of disembodying the militia at the end of
the war, the militia were not well treated. He, however,
hail been liberal, for he had given to the of eers and the
medical staff the same gratuity which they received when
they had been embodied for a much longer time during the
war; and he did this on the ground that the expanses they
incurred were heavier in peoportion when they were a short
time embodied, The men would receive 14 days' pay and
their slop clothing, so that they would have 228. in their
pockets. Ho had been asked if the Goverement would put
a stop to the disembodiment, but he must state that there
were some regiments the men belonging to which wore on
their roads home already. Any compliment he might pay
to the militia would probably not be well received by the
colonels, but still he could assure them that no one had a
higher opinion of the militia than ha had. He had seen
at Aldershott lately regiments of militia which were quite
equal to those of the line, and since the order for disem-
bodiment had been issued he had received an offer from
the Royal County Down Militia to form themselves into
a second battalion of a regiment of the line, the officers un-
dertaking to produce the thousand men necessary to make
up the battalion. He had not been able to take into con-
sideration this patriotic offer, as the number of men-
and battalions of the line Was already fixed in the esti-
mates. lie believed they might easily raise a large force for
the army from the militia. This raised th) question which
had been mooted by the noble lord opposite whether the
militia ought to be a nursery for the line. He (Gen. Peel)
bought the present system wanted revision and investiga-
tion. He believed that it would be found in many in-
stances the numerical force of militia regiments as stated
was fal:acious. He intended to endeavour to melee the
present militia staff more effective. When militia regi-
ments were not called out fur three years their staff be-
came inefficient. He had Stated to the medical officers of
militia that ha could not add to the permanent staff of the
militia. The duty that staff now pal-formed was to recruit
for the line ; but he thought that it might be male useful
in drilling the men they recruited ; for now, when there
was a great number of recruits coming in, they© was a great
want of efficient officers to drill and train them. This
!night be dens to a great extent by the permanent militia
staff. lie believed that it was possible to make the mili-
tia a most efficient force, and one which would always be
looked on with respect.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in
the course of this discussion some charges had been made
against him which he could not pass over in silence. One
charge was made against him by the hon. and gallant mem-
ber for Westaeineter, which appeared to him one of the
most uejustitiable an I unauthorised charges ever made in
Parliament. He understood that hon. and gallant gentle-
man to say that the disembodiment of the militia was not
caused by the Minister of War, nor had any member of
the Government whoborea military cha-acter recommended
it., but that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to
secure the success of his cheeseparing budget, had been the
cause of it. Whether the budget deserved that epithet he
would leave it to the house to decide, and he was not about
to defend it. But nothing could be more unjust than the
charge of the hon. and gallant officer. The decision with
regard to the militia had been arrived at not on any specific
plan, but having regard to the general revenue of the coun-
try, aid if the hon, and gallant gentleman had reflected on
what had passed in this respect he mast have felt how un-
justifiable such a charge was. He might have remembered
that the estimates were those of the predecessors of the
Present Gove:nment, and that the vote for the militia was
1.50,0e01., which would pay :30,003 men only for two
moithe, and the late Secretary for War had frankly given
notice of his intention to disembody the militia. The
lion. and gallNnt
gentleman, knowing this, ought to have
felt that the ihargo he made against him (Hr. Disraeli)
was not cue which ought to have fallen from him.
(hear, hear, hoar ) With regard to the disembodying of
the
occasioned them the greatest pejo. No one could more
the Government teal taken a ceuree which had
ttisa,the militia reg;inente sad the inestimable s.r
vi;e3 they had done t, the country. He thought it was
highly desirable that the militia should be called out every
year, avid he :.greed with the noble lord (Palmerston) who
had addressed the hones with so much generous candour
towards the present Goverament, that the militia was not
is nursery to the lino but a constitutional force. When
questions respecting expenditure were before the house,
aid when hon. gentlemen like the bon. and gallant mztu-
her for Westminster on the hustings were so fond of dila-
ting on the import:tee° of a wise reduction of expenditure,
be would ade the house to consider how it was possible to
carry into effect that wise reduction of expenditure, how
it Wes possi6le to maintain a prudent economy in tho ad-
ministration of our national reeources, if we do not take a
general view of all our powers. HoweVer painful might
be the decision to which the Government had come, he
want of appreciation of the inestineable services which had
gallant gentlemen would acquit him of any
bh eaialdby the militia. (Hear.)
• • Sir DE LACY EVANS sai i his observations were not
dictated by any want of respect fur the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. All he meant to convoy was the general im-

pression that the army estimates were too much governed
by financial considerations.
The subject then dropped.
THE CAGLIART.

Mr. KINGLAKE postponed his motion with respect to
the capture of the Cagliari and her crew.
TUE LAND TRANSPORT CORPS.
Lord A. VANE TEMPEST then rose to call the atten-
tion of the honee to the allegations coa tensed in a petition
presented to the house from the officers of the Land Trans-
port Corps on the 11th of August, 1857, and to move for
the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the
question of the petitioners' complaints that they had not
received the rate of half-pay which they state they are
entitled to claim. The noble lord observed that the Land
Transport Corps, which was formed in 1855, was enlisted
under the most unfortunate circumstances, for it was not
acknowledged by the military department, but only by the
civil department, and on its disbandment at the end of the
war the troops were not discharged as soldiers of the army.
A committee which was appointed to inquire into the
matter reported that the corps from the time of its crea-
tion formed a portion of her Majesty's land forces, and
Mi. F. Peel, then Under-Secretary at War, stated, in
answer to a question, that the officers of that corps would
be treated and considered as bona fide officers in the
army. On that assurance a large number of non-commis-
sioned officers wore induced to accept commissions and on
the reduction of the corps they applied either to be trans-
ferred to the Military Train or to receive their proper half-
pay as officers. They complained that the half-pay which
had been awarded to them was a special half-pay not au-
thorised by the regulations of the service—that it had been
fixed not by the military departments, but by the Lords
of the Treasury. The usual half-pay for a captain in the
cavalry was 7s. 6d. per day, but by the special rate the
amount was fixed at ss. The usual half-pay for a lieute-
nant was 4s. Bd., but the special half-pay was 3s. 6(1., but
the cornets in the Land Transport corps only 3s. The dif-
ference, so far as the CO LID try was cone irned, was trifling,
but it was of great importance to the men who had fought
so gallantly for their country, and were now unable to
maintain the position in which they had been placed.
Amongst the applicants there were seven who had received
a medal for distinguished services, two who had received
the cross of the Legion of Honour, and eleven who had
been wounded in the service. There was another point to
which he wished to call the attention of the house. Her
Majesty, in expressing her approbation of the conduct and
by every of the army in the Cy imea, directed that a number
of commissions should be distributed, and on a represen-
tation by General Decree that the Artillery were not men-
tioned, an order eras made that they should be included,
and Lord Harding() said the commissions in the Lend
Transport Corps were to be considered equal to commis-
sions in the regular army. On this condition 31 individuals
accepted commissions tu the Land Transport Corps_ The
,Lpplicaets whose cause he was advocating consisted of two
daises. There were 12 deserving officers who left civil ap-
pointments or the militia. The case of Captain Stepheus
was especially hard, for he had served tun years in the
army in China and other parts of the world. Having
obtained his discharge, he entered the Land Transport
Corps as a private, and from his energy and zeal was
placed in a responsible position, and raise 1 more than 2,000
recruits, On his return he was placed on half-pay. The
twelve officers who came from civil life had been treated
in a different way from those who wore promoted from the
ranks. They had been placed on half-pay at, the regular
rate settled by the War-office warrant of 1851, but it was
only a temporary half-pay, which would terminate at the
end of two or three years, and they would then be left,
without resources. There were 60 or 70 non-commissioned
officers who had been promoted from the ranks, who
sought to have justice done to them, and who wore equit-
ably entitled to the proper half-pay. He trusted the right
hon. gentleman at the head of the war department would
see justice done to the claimants, and that the committee
would be grants 1. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CO iVAN, in seconding the motion, raid that a peti-
tion bad been entrusted to him by Captain Handyside, who
after 18 years service accepted the offer of a lieutenancy in
the artillery, and who complained with great justice of the
treatment to which he had been subjected, stating that the
pledge which had been hold out to him had not been re-
deemed. Great as was the demand for reduction of ex-
penditure, he so as sure the people of this country did not
desire to see their gallant defenders treated in a shabby
and stingy manner. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said his right hon. friend the
Secretary for War had no objection to the appointment of
a committee, but as the adoption of the amendment would
have the effect of preventing the house going into com-
mittee of supply, he trusted it would be withdrawn, and
that the noble lord would be content with the nomination
of the committee on a future day.
Sir J. RAMSDEN cordially concurred in every word
that had been said in praise of those officers whose case
had been brought before the house, and was quite sure
that neither the Government nor the house wished to
treat them in an improper manner. The majority of
them were non-commissioned officers who wore promoted
from the ranks to be officers of the Laud Transport
Corps in 1854. In 1856 the corps was disbanded.
These officers had scarcely served for two years, and ac-
cording to the war regulations were not entitled to more
than a temporary pension. The late Secretary for War,
fi ,ding that he could not do more than grant a
temporary half-pay, at a reduced rate, for two or three
years, and considering that their services entitled them to
greater consideration, laid their case before the Lords of
the Treasury, who consented, on Lis strong and urgent
recommendation, to allow them to relinquish their half-
pay for permanent half-pay at a slightly diminished rate.
It had been said that these officers wore not treated in the
same way as the other non-commissioned officers who were
promoted from the ranks. If they had been so treated
they would have received a higher rate of pay, but it
would only have been temporary, and at the end of three
years it would have ceased altogether. If the committee
should be appointed they would find that the late Secretary
for War had obtained for them the best treatment in his
power. (Hear.)
Mr. P. O'BRIEN thought these officers had more than
a financial objection to make, for they might have been
ttansferred to a position in which they would have been
recognised, and would haveraceived their frill half-pay.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought the matter ought to be
left entirely in the hands of the Secretary at War, and
that the officers ought to have been provided for by giving
them commissions in the regiments of the line.
The amendment wad then withdrawn on the underatancl-
ing that the committee should be appointed on a future clay.

gunboats, and going through, with much minutenes., a
description of the process of launching each right hon.
gentleman. He characterised the whole system as a mis-
take, such as no one who understood the subject could have
made. Unless 100,0001. and upwards was spent, the
matter could not be made useful. There was a mud bank
which ought to b 3 cleared out at Halsar, and made a
receptacle for these boats.

Sir C. WOOD said that grcat differences of opinion
existed upon the question whether vessels ought to be kept
in or out of water. The hon. and gallant officer seemed to
think that a mud bank was a good receptacle. (Sir C.
NAPIER : " No, no.") (Laughter.) Now, these gunboats
were chiefly intended for shallow water, and the object in
building them was to have a force calculated to protect our
shores. But they would be of great utility elsewhere-- both
in China, in Australia, and in many other places where
vessels drawing but a small amount of water were required.
He believed that the boats drawn up at Halsar would keep
better than if they were afloat. The dry rot had shown
itself slower in the vessels hauled up than in those in the
Mediterranean. It was very desirable to get rid of the
gun-boats from blocking up Portsmouth harbour, and
hence a plot of land belonging to the Admiralty had been
used for the purpose of making slips for drawing up these
vessels. To have constructed a wet cock would have been
to enter upon a work of great extent—a work which would
have required a large grant of money.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE characterised these gun-boat
slips as ono of the most extraordinary ideas which ever
entered the mind of man. The place in which these slips
were placed would have made an admirable basin. In-
stead of this, Haslar Hospital had been interfered with ;
the neighbourhood had been incommoded by interference
with the walls. And all this for a system of machinery
which, if it broke—and it was not very well thought of by
competent persons—these gun-boats would be useless, for
they could not be floated for thrae months. Ho really
doubted whether these boats were worth preserving at all.
What was wanted in the navy was a light sort of vessel,
carrying a commander, and ready to do service in aoy
part of the world. A letter had been read from an officer
in command of one of those boats, praising his vessel. This
was all very well. A man's ship was like his wife—put
him into ever such a tub—(loud laughter) and he would
speak well of her.
After a few words from Sir C. NAPIER,

Mr. BRISCOE said the house ought not to pass over in
silence the opinions expressed by the hon. and gallant ad-
miral, and it it was competent to him to do so, he would
move that the vote be postponed. As well as he could un-
derstand the papers, 11,0001. more than had been voted
had already been expended; yet only 5,00 Z. was asked
for now ; if so, 6 large sum must be still due. Ile begged
to move that the vote be suspended.
Mr. FITZROY said the hon. member could not move
the suspension ; he should move tho omission of the vote.
Mr. BRISCOE moved that the vote be struck out.
Sir C. NAPIER seconded the motion.
Mr. CORRY said nothing had been expended but what
had been voted.

Sir G. PECHELL said there was great difference of
opinion as to this system of drawing up the gunboats. The
late Marquis of Angle,ey'syacht was always considered one
'of the best in the Royal Yacht Squadron, yet she was
hauled up every winter. It was necessary to take some
means to preserve these vessels. The Admiralty was
utterly at a loss what to do with them, and it was there
this plan was devised. He had suggested last year that a
number should be sent to Cuba to act against the slavers,
but he was told by the late Admiralty that they were
utterly unfitted for such service ; yet it now appeared that
(hey had proved most efficient in a similar service in China.
(Hear, hear) He thought they ought to be told on whose
authority this plan at Haslar had been selected.
Mr. T. BARING said that last year the house had fully
approved of the plan of those slips. It appeared that the
apparatus for launching these vessels was not yet com-
plete, and the present vote was intended to perfect it.
The hon. member for West Norfolk said only eight of these
boats could be launched in a month. He (Mr. Baring) had
wiittea to Captain Dacres, the superintendent of Haslar
yard, to ask if that was the case. The answer he gut was,
" Thirty of the 60-horse power; there are only eight of
the 40 and 20-horse power on the slip, and these might be
worked off with the others." If the vote was refused the
very object of the hon. members opposite would be de-
feated.

Sir C. NAPIER said there wore only forty boats on the
slips now. Where was the money to come from to prep ire
a place for the other forty ? Ho thought the vote ought to
be postponed for inquiry; the whole plan was wrong.
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped the hon. member for Surrey
would not press his motion. He was not responsible for
this plan ; it wits utterly the act of the late Govern-
ment. Ho had lately visited Portsmouth, and found a
great difference of opinion amongst naval men on
the point. He made every inquiry, and found that
at present for eight days of each fortnight two a
day could be got off ; and if the present vote was
judiciously applied the same could be done every day
in the month. These boats had proved most efficient, and
demands were now made for them from every quarter.
With regard to additional sheds, he would take care that
no money was spent until after full inquiry. The original
estimate was 7,000/. ; only 51,0001. had been expended.
Mr. HORSMAN wished to know whether the sum of
56,0001. would entirely complete the work?
Sir J. PAKINGTON understood so.

Mr. HORSMAN thought if that was the case, and if this
vote would place the whole system in an efficient state,
there ought to be no hesitation about granting it ; but if
there was any doubt as to whether thi sum would render
the machinery complete, he thought it would be better to
postpone the vote.

Sir J. PAKINGTON had no hesitation in saying that
from what he had heard, this sum of 5,0001. was absolutely
necessary to render efficient what had already been expended.
He was told at Portsmouth that even a smaller sum would
enable them to launch the boats at all times of tide.

Sir J. ELPHINSTONE sail, even if the launching
machinery was as complete as possible, it would be necessary
to construct a basin in which to float them. It might be
th.at there were demands from all quarters for these ves-
sels, but that only showed the necessity for providing small
vessels; but these gunboats would not do, they were uttsrly
unfit for sea—the officers and men were worse off thln in the
old 10-gun brigs.

Mr. KIRK wished to know where the 11,0)01., which
had been expended in addition to the 40,0001. voted, had
come from ?

Sir J. PAKINGTON said the late First Lord of the Ad-
miralty might more properly answer the question, as the
transaction took place during his tenure of office. He believed
the fact was that the Treasury had sanctioned the expen-
diture of the money before it had been voted by parliament;
but it was eventually voted.
Sir C. WOOD confirmed this statement. He was glad
that the First Lord of the Admiralty agreed with him that
these gunboats would keep better when drawn up out of the
water than in. No question had been raised about the
draught of water, but about the facility of landing They
had all been drawn up without machinery, and to say that
they could not be drawn down again iu the same way did
seem to him to be an extraordinary notion. It was a moot
question whether the boats ought to be hauled up or not,
but the question for the house to consider was whether,
when money had 'been well spent, they chose to expend
5,t1C0/. more to increase the facilities of landing which were
not so good as they should be, and which facilities were
requisite. In reference to a question by an hon. gentleman
as to the order fur discharging the continuous service men,
ho had to repeat what he had said before, that there had
been no order rescinding the first order. As to what had
been said about putting an end to theganboats, and substi-
tuting another class of vessels, he differed altogether with
that view; but he had given orders for the building of
three or four small screw vessels to be used in substitution
for the gunboats where they were better suited.
Sir F. SMITH thought they ought to be satisfied of the
effectiveness of these boats before they spent this 5,0001. in
providing facilities for hauling them up.
Mr. BRISCOE expressed an intention of taking the
sense of the house on this vote, which he thought was but
the commencement of a much larger expenditure.
BENTINCK denied the statement of Sir C. Wool
that the money had been well spent. The right hon. gen-
tleman admitted it to be a moot question whether the boats
should be hauled up; if so, why spend this 5,0001. until
that question was decided ? The right hon. gentleman also
said that these boats were useful vessels. He (Mr. Ben-
tinck) did not deny it ; but, if so, why not leave them
where they would be available for service ? He wished to
know whether the MOM was to be the extreme of the ex-
penditure for this ill-advised measure ?

Mr. MACARTRY thonght the vote ought to be post.
poned until some better information was before the house.
Sir C. WOOD—When Coe report upon the subject was
sent to the Admiralty he went down to Portsmouth to
make inquiries, and had heard no objection advanced to
the plan.
Sir J. PAKINGTON understood the intention was to
make the existing slip available which would cost 2,0001. or
3,0001., and the rest of the money would b 3 expended in
completing the ways for launching. He could give no as-
surance that the 5,000/. would be the last farthing required.
Lord C. PAGET hoped the vote would not be opposed.
It appeared they had forty of these boats hauled up, and
that this money was required to provide facilities for
launching.
Mr. HO RSIIAN observed that the late Board of Admi-
ralty claimed credit for housing these boats efficiently. It
appeared that they had been housed so efficiently that they,
could not be unhoused—(a laugh).—and the present Almi-
ralty found they must spend 5,0001. for that purpose. It
appeared to him that if they voted this money they would
have to vote a further sum next year.
After a few words from Sir C. NAPIER and Mr. BEN-
TINCM, the committee divided on the omission of the 5,00.1.
for gunboat slips—
Ayes 26
Noes
Majority —193
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 30,0001. for medicine and medical stores,
lonel BOLDERO said that the present vote afforded
an opportunity of bringing under the notice of the com-
mittee the medical condition of the navy. He had fre-
quently brought before the house the case of the navy
assistant-surgeons. On some occasions he had been suc-
cessful, and on others he failed. The pay of the assistant-
surgeons of the army had been raised from 7s. 6d. to 10i.
a day. Now he was of opinion that a better educated
class of men was required for the navy than for the army,
for this reason, that the medical men on land had better
opportunities of studying their profession after they left
the school than the navy surgeons. The East India Com.
paoy and the mercantile mai ine were keen competitors
with the navy for surgeons, and therefore it was the duty
of his right hon. friend to ascertain how he could obtain
the best men for the navy. There was another grievance
under which the surgeons of the navy laboured. When
made full surgeons in the navy, they were placed on half-
pay, and spent something like ten years on shore doing
nothing. He hoped the light hon. glintlernan would talc;
these circumstances under consideration.

Sir J. PAK ENGTON agreed with his hon. friend as to the
importance of this subject and the necessity of having a com-
petent
staff of surgeons for the navy. He had not had time
as yet to consider the subject referred to by his hon. and
gallant friend ; but he promised him that the matter should
receive his early attention. (Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On th vote of 41,470/ for miscellaneous services,
Mr. FAGAN asked a question wi.h regard to Cork Har-
bour.
Mr. MAGUIRE called the attention of the right hon. gen-
tl• man to the importance and necessity of making Queens-
town a harbour of refuge and naval station.
Mr. BAGWELL, as a resident at Queenstown, could corro-
borate what had been said by the hon. member for Dungar-
von. Every First Lard of the Admiralty for the last 25 years
had promised to consider the case of Cork Harbour, but
nothing had been done. One improvement had certainly
been made, and that was the erection of a pier and so great
was the advantage derived from it that he might state that
he himself saw one of the largest steamers lying alongside of
it, and a regiment of cava,ry was marched down there to em-
bark for the Crimea, and they actually walked their horses

on beard. The harbour of Cork was the great western har.
hour of the United Kingdom.
Mr. FITZROY said that he must remind the hon. member
that he was speaking to a vote which had already passed.
Sir C. WOOD said he would strongly recommend the right
hon. gentleman the First Lord of the Admi alty to go to Cork
Harbour, which was one of the most beautiful in the world.
He wished to explain the grounds of the restriction in the
charitable contributions of the Admiralty complained of by
his hon. friend behind him (Mr. Fagan). There had been
such a number of demands made on the sum in question from
places which had ostensibly a right to apply, that it was
thought best to confine the contributions to places where
there were actually naval stations.

Sir J. PAKINGiON said the explanation of the right hon.
gentleman did n4t tally with the statement of the hon. mem-
ber for Cork, who said that a considerable part of the sum
in question was unappropriated. He .vas not acqnainted with
the condition of the fund, and he did not know whether
the arrangement mentioned by the right hon. gentleman was
not a judicious one, but he would take care to inform himself
on the subject, and if he found any injustice existing he
would endeavour to remedy it.
The vote was then agreed to,

On the next vote, 694,148/.., for the half-pay, reserved
half-pay, and retirement, to officers of the Navy and Royal
Marines,
Sir G. PECHELL, after some eulogistic observations on the
manner in which the First L rd of the Admit alty hal coin.
menced the performance of the duties of his office, expressed
his gratification at the right hon. gentleman's having taken
measures to inquire into the case of a very deserving class of
men, the worn-out officers of Greenwich Hospital, and for
having given them their half-pay, of which they had been
for so many years deprived. This step had given so much
satisfwAion that he hoped the right hon. gentleman would
give their half-pay to others on the list who were in the same
position. He hoped also that in the distribution of his patron-
age the right hon. gentleman would not confine it to a small
clique and to particular families. It was a subject of remark
that out of the small number of rear-admirals now employed
two of them bore the same name, and were connected with
each other.

Admiral DUNCOMBE said the hon. and gallant gentleman
had alluded to two gallant friends of hie who were now em-
ployed ; and he would venture to tell the hon. and gallant
gentleman that, though the number of rear-admirals employed
was so limited, and unfortunately two of t hem bore the same
name, they were among the most scientific and able officers
in the service, and when he stated that they bore the name
of Grey it would be a proof that they were not officers who
had thrown away their time. They devoted their whole time
to the service, and no more energetic or scientific officers
were to be found.

Admiral WALCOIT said that the amount of the estimate
for the half-pay appear,d heavy. But it should be recol-
lected that in the war which closed in 1815 the country was
obliged to keep up an enormous navy and large fleets, which
led to the employment of a large number of officers, many of
whom we were now in receipt of half-pay, He would say fa
them that in their enforced ret rement they were grateful to
their country for that reward which had been afforded to
them. It was a debt of honour duo from the nation for E er-
vices done by the officers who received it. The list of these
officers, however, was rapidly diminishing, and would soon
close.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS drew attention to the extraordinary
system of promotion to the rank of admiral. In 1840 there
were only 143, and now they numbered 349. The committee
ought to express its disapr robation of this reckless system of
promotion. When in 1846 200 old captains were placed on
th list of retired admirals, it was understood that the num-
ber of admirals would gradually be decreased ; but instead of
that it had gradually increased. There had, within a very
short time, been recently added to the list no less than 29 ad.
mirals. He believed that there was about an admiral and a
half to every vessel in the navy.
Mr. CORRY said that what the hon. gentleman called reck-
less promotion since 1846 had been productive of more good
t the service than anything that had ever been done. There
were 343 admirals on the list, but they were not meant to be
for active service. There were only 100 on the active service
list; and the retired list was introduced for the purpose of
obtaining younger men in the rank of admiral. The effect of
the plan was that a ear tain might now get his flag at the age
of 48 instead of 78. The whole cost attendant on obtaining
such an advantage was 22,0001., and the whole expense of
the half-pay list in the last ten years had been diminished by
38, 000/.
After some further conversation,
Sir C. NAPIER complained that the reduced list of ad-
mirals had exceeded the prescribed number of 350. He ob-
jected to their limiting the admirals to certain families. If
fiva rear-admi als were required, two ought not to belong to
one family. (Hear, hear.) He wanted to see a little more fair
play in the appointment of officers. When a new first lord
came into office he always professed to look at mei it ; but
they all knew that that was all humbug. (Laughter.) A
gallant admiral opposite, and there was no more efficient
officer, had almost gone on his knees to the board for ern-.
ployment—(Admiral Walcott : I did)—but it was of no use ;
he had no Parliamentary influence. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Admiral DuNcomita,
Sir C. WOOD said that if they would insist on 'laving
young and efficient admirals, they must provide for the old
and infirm ones. Complaint was made that the list of cap-
tains was too large. A few yeas ago, it was determined that
it should be reduced to 350 ; it had net yet be. n brought to
that number, butit now stood at 356. The right hon. baronet
then referred to some appointments which he had made, in•
eluding Sir G. Seymour, Admiral F. Grey, and Sir Michael
Seymour, and contended that they were most efficient officers.
He read a letter from Lord L 1 ons to Admiral Grey, bearing
testimony to his efficiency.
Sir C. NAPIER said he had not questioned the appoint-
mentaof Sir M. Seymour. He referred to the two Admiral's
Grey ; he did not believe that they would have been ap-
pointed but for the fact that they were brothers-in-law W
the late First Lord. (A laugh.)
Sir F. BARING defended the existing number of ad.,
mirals.
The vote was then agreed to.

280,0611., for milit pensions and allowances.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS objected to some of the items. 110
did not find a single common sailor in the list, and cousiderei
that gross partiality had been shown.
Agreed to.

9,4811. for civil pensions and allowances.
1501., conveyance of troops.
Agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the first vote being proposed under this head, 21,537/.
for the Secretary of State for War and the Commander•in•
Chief,

Mr: WILLIAMS moved to report progress.
General PEEL said this vote was a reduction on WA
amount of last year, and hoped that it would be agreed to.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he should press his motion.
The committee divided—
For reporting progress
Against.
The vote was not pressed, and the Chairman reported
progress.
EXCHEQUER BILLS (20,911,500/.) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 2) BILL.
The order of the day for the second reading of this bill W
discharged.
CHELSEA HOSPITAL AND WATERWORKS EXCHANGE