The Sun.
London, England, 1867-06-14 00:00:00

DIPERIAL PAR LIAnNT

HOUSE OF COMMONS. -LAST EVENING.
The &T ax= took the chair at four o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. 11. EDWARDS took the oath and his seat for Wey-
mouth.

TTIE VOLUNTEER VOTE.
Mr. FORSTER said it was, ho believed, arranged tha
the vote for the volunteers should not be taken previo us_

to a copy of certain instructions being in the hands of
members. Ho left town on that understanding, but he
saw by the papers that the vote had been taken on Friday
last, although the instructions had not yet been issued to
members. Under these circumstances he bad to ask for a

postponement of the reception of the report of the vote
until the papers were in the hands of members.
Mr. HARDY answered in the affirmative.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL•

ENFRANCHISEMENT OF CHELSEA AND
HACKNEY.

r ' The house went into committee es this bill.

The CHANCELLOR of the• EXCHEQUER said he
should take that opportunity of making a few observations
with respect to the distribution of scats, as the motion of
the hon. member for Wick had greatly increased the num-
ber of seats at the disposal of her Majesty's Government.
They had, in consequence of the carrying the proposal
that only boroughs whose population amounted to 10,000
should have one representative, bad to consider how the
additional 15 seats, making 45 seats, should be appropriated.
Her Majesty's Government entirely approved of the al-
teration, although they did not recommend the course at
the outset. With respect to the metropolis it was pro-
posed to give four additional members to the metropolis.
They proposed adhering to the original proposal of divid-
ing the Tower Hamlets, in addition to which it
was proposed to create a new borough to be
called the borough of Hackney. On the other
side of the metropolis they proposed to create
a borough to represent Chelsea and the parts adjacent.
ando
rt theyhy
Salford;
at ehd they
yto oughtg itvhea that
nw to wouldtake
additionalivea 19 ofmm etehmmeberr seats,t
mto
the University of Durham. That arrangement would take
and as they proposed to give a member to the London Uni-
versity, r
horrthought alsovi
ip
. 20 out of the 45 seats, and the remaining 25 seats he pro-
; posed to give to the counties. The great counties of
West Kent, North Lancashire, East Surrey, and East Lan-

cashire should be divided. (Hear, hear.) That arrange-
ment would take seven. The other nine counties pro-
posed to be dealt with, amongst which were Lincolnshire,
Derbyshire, the West-Riding, Staffordshire, and Essex, the
Government propos3d to divide each into 3 parts, giving 2
representatives to each. That arrangement would appro-
priate the whole of the 45 seats ; and with respect to the
important question of boundaries he regretted that he
was not able to communicate the names of the commis-
sioners, but ho hoped soon to be in a position to do so
He did not propose to discuss the arrangement he had com-
municated to the House, as he thought it would be far
better to have the printed schedules in possession
of honourable members before any discussion was
raised. That he hoped to accomplish before Monday
next, on which day ho should propose to go on with the
bill. He concluded by moving that the Chairman report
progress.
Mr. LAING expressed generally his approval of the
proposals of the Government, but intimated his intention
of raising a discussion on tho subject of the cumulative
vote at the, earliest opportunity.
Mr. AYILTON asked that the bill as amended :might

be reprinted.
Mr. SYKES sail as the 45 seats given to the Govern-
ment by the provisions of the bill had been appropriated,
he should like to kuow where the additional representa-
tives for Scotland were to come from. (Hear, hear.)
Mr CARDWELL said there had been a disinclination
expressed to increase the number of members of that
house ; he also had a desire to know how the additional
representation was to be given to Scotland.
Mr. CANDLISH asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer whether he would, on MOndaY next, be prepared to
lay on the table the Government definition of the term
" dwelling-house ?" •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said with
respect to the reprinting of the bill it was at the present
time a matter of great difficulty, but ho would ascertain
what could be done in the matter. With respect to the
question raised by the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr.
Cardwell), it was agreed on all hands that England was
not over-represented, and therefore he for one was not pre-
pared to propose to the house any scheme impairing
the adequate representation of England. With respect to
the sister island, nothing would be given up there to Scot-
land, and therefore it became the duty of those who thought
Scotland not fully represented to come forward and meet
the question, by moving an increase in its representatives
in the house, but he could not agree to any increase in the
representation of Scotland by the diminution of that of
England.
The motion for reporting progress was then agreed to
and the house resumed.
THE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT.
On the motion for going into committee of supply on
the navy estimates,
Mr. H. BAILLIE rose to move for a select committee
to consider the present state and condition of the Ordnance
Department. The hon. gentleman complained of the
great expense of providing heavy ordnance, and also of
the lavish expenditure in which tho Elswick Company
He said
participated in so largely. of the £3,000,000
spent in producing large guns, a very great preportion
of that money went into the coffers of the Elswick
company in payment for the 30-inch guns, which cost
about £l,OOO a piece, which burst nearly as fast as they
were made. (Laughter.) After all the 30-inch gun
that had been made the Government had only
two which were serviceable, and when a short
time ago there was a likelihood of a disturbance
with Spain, it was thought desirable to send
some additional heavy guns to Gibraltar, but on examina-
tion it was found that even these had been rifled
on the shunt principle instead of that known as the
Woolwich principle ; and, therefore, it was quite
impossible to despatch them, and they had at
once to be sent to the Elswick factory to have the shuut
rifling drilled out and the Woolwich principle drilled in.
(Laughter.)
Sir J. RAY said, as the question of the armaments of
the navy had been entrusted to him since he bad a seat at
the Admiralty, and as the speech of his right hon. friend
had attaaked the naval administration, he would endea-
vour to set him right upon some points of nis statement-
His right hon. friend had selected the Liverpool as a class
of frigates and armaments which would be used in the
navy, but he would remind him that the Liverpool was an
obsolete ship, and only intended for certain duties ; and he
would further remind him that nearly all the frigates in
the service had received their full proportion of the Wool-
wich gun, with which ho believed naval officers were not
dissatisfied, and he might add all the countries of Europe
except three had adopted it. The Government of the
United States had adopted another description of arma-
ment, which was a smooth-bore gun ;it was not, however,
from any preference to it, but because they bad a largo
quantity of material in stock which they were desirous to
make use of. With regard to the subject of gun carriages,
it had been most carefully investigated, and the authori-
ties were quite satisfied with the present arrangement.
As to the Ordnance Select Committee, an impression ap-
peared to prevail that some of themembers were inventors,
and therefore that it was not an impartial tribunal. But
there was not a gentleman on the committee who had de-
voted himself to invention, or who held a patent. The
members of the committed therefore came with clean
hands to the consideration of everything that was placed
berm) them. Ten years back the Armstrong gun was the
best invention that could be obtained, but it was always
the wish of the Government to avail themselves of such
improvements as the house and the country were likely
to sanction, and at the present time the Woolwich gun
was acknowledged to be superior in all points to every
other, and be thought it was a gun with which the country
would be satisfied.
Lord ELCHO thought his right hon. friend had done
good service by bringing this question before the house.
Last week he ventured to make a statement which had
been questioned with reference to the system of rifling,
and he would therefore take the present opportunity of
confirming that statement. He would not complain of the
ordnance committee, because lie believed it was within the
power of the Secretary for War to act as ho pleased, and
it was toLthe head of the department they should look for
a bettor state of things. As an instance of this, he might
remark that the report of the committee on small arms was
allowed to remain a dead letter for a lung time ; but' if it
-had been acted Upon when received, the -country would be
now in abetter position.
.It seemed to be assumed that
I
the system of large guns acloptopy America, was only to