The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-17 00:00:00

THU R ATP4PgVENING, JUINL

IMPERIAL • PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE or COMMONS.—(This Day.)

The SPRAYER took the chair at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following private bills were read a third time and
passed :—Great Northern and Western (of Ireland)
Railway, Limerick and Foynes Railway, Oxford, Wor-
cester, and Wolverhampton Railway, Shrewsbury and
Welchpool Railway, and Waveney Valley Railway.
The following bills were further considered, and ordered
to be read a third time :—Hove Improvement, Durham
and Cleveland Union Railway, and St. Leonard (Shore.
ditch) Parish.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA.
The house went into committee on the India resolu-
tions :
Lord STANLEY moved the following resolution :
"That the members of the nominated portion of the
council shall be selected by her Majesty, subject, as a
general rule, to the qualification above expressed, and
one-half at the least of the elected members shall pos,
sees the like qualification." He said the vote of Monday
had placed the house in same difficulty, relative to this
subject. Not only had the house decided that permanent
legislation should take place in the course of the present
session, but bad fixed the number of the council, and
that the manner of electing should not be exclusively
that of the Crown. Speaking of the proposition of
looking to India for the appointment of a portion
of its council, the noble lord said that neither
the Governor-General nor the Governor of the
Indian presidencies could feel anything but an
indirect interest in the efficiency of the Indian council
at home ; and, on the other hand, they did and must
feel a direct and strong interest in that which was
immediately under their eyes, and subject to their
management, in the efficiency of the civil and mili-
tary service of India on the spot. There was the
danger that if they trusted to the Indian authorities
to select any portion of the Indian council here, it
could hardly be expected they would make so great
a sacrifice as to deprive themselves of the ser-
vices of the most eminent and efficient men, but
that they would send home men for whom they
desired to provide honourable retirement ; and there
was a great risk that, under such a plan, the portion
of the council so chosen would be made a sort of
shelf—a sort of honourable retirement for those whom
the Governor-General of India had no desire further to
employ. If, however, a contrary result occurred, it was
quite obvious another result equally as inconvenient
would be arrived at—that of obtaining a maximum of
efficiency in the council hero only at the sacrifice of a
maximum efficiency in the civil and military services
of India. Against the adoption of that plan there
had been a plan suggested by the honourable lord
the member for Carlisle. The Government bad con-
sidered that proposition, and they were of opinion
it would not meet all the difficulties of the case. Her
Majesty's Government considered such a plan as that
suggested by the right hon. baronet would be open to
many and grave abuses. What was it, then, her Ma-
jesty's Government proposed ? They thought by the
decision of the committee on a former occasion that
part of the council should be nominated and a part
elected, that the real desire of the council was that the
exclusive right of nominating should not rest in the
bands of the Crown—(hear, hear)—so as to lessen the
amount of patronage in the hands of the Secretary of
State for India. (Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Go-
vernment were prepared to accept the number of 15
councillors, and they proposed that in the first instance
eight of them should be nominated, and the remaining
seven, following to a certain extent the principle of
1853, elected from among their own number by
the Court of Directors, and the subsequent
appointments filled up alternately by the nomination of
the Crown and by election—the right of election to be
confined to the remaining members of the council. Such
a plan would get rid of the abuses that sometimes
existed in self-elected bodies.
Lord PALMERSTON considered that before the
committee was called upon to give a vote on this plan,
it should he embodied in a resolution and printed with
the votes for the consideration of hon. members. He
condemned the idea that they were to legislate for India
in a different spirit to the constitution of this country.
He asked her Majesty's Government and the,committee
to deal with this council on the established principle of
the British constitution, and give to her Majesty's ad-
visers the power of naming the council the same as they
did the judges of the land, governors-general of colo-
nies, and other officers, which made her Majesty's
advisers responsible for them. He was opposed to any
hocus-pocus system of nominating certain portions of
plan proposed the Crown would
the council. By the
have the majority of nominations, and he asked the
committee not to depart from the principles of the
British Constitution in theory, whilst in practice, by the
election of the council, they would adopt it. He called
upon her Majesty's Government to oome forward and
support the principles of the constitution in the creation
of the council, and not depart from it in order to obtain
a few votes.
Mr. WALPOLE said that the plan proposed was not
a departure from the principles of the constitution, and
reminded the committee that the struggle between Mr.
Pitt and Mr. Fox was of a similar character to that
now before the committee. He approved of the plan
for various reasons, and especially that it would give
independence of action to the council more than any
other plan.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the noble lord, in moving his
resolution, had not touched on the tenour of office, the
salary to be paid, and other matters—important ques-
tions that must be embraced in any scheme before the
committee cou'-d. adopt it, especially in one possessing
a mixed plan of nomination and election. He thought
the committee should not this day be called upon to
come to a decision on the plan before the committee,
which entirely did away with the seven resolutions on
the paper. He congratulated the noble lord the member
for Tiverton at drawing every debate,closer and closer to
the view of the hon. member for Birmingham, and if they
went on debating this question much longer he (Sir J.
Graham) felt confident the opinion of the hon. member
for Birmingham and the hon. member for Sheffield
would prevail. (Hear.) He considered India should
be governed by a responsible minister, with assistants.
He was glad the Government had given up the seventh
resolution. Tne scheme, however, before the committee
nearly approached direct nomination, the elective prin-
ciple being embraced in it. Under the present system the
Crown nominated five of the Court of Directors. By
this scheme eight were to be immediately nomi-
nated, and in the choice of the seven, five
nominees would exercise a voice in the election.
It was expedient that the scheme should be fully
developed in resolutions ; and he suggested the matter
should stand over till Monday, when they should sit on
consecutively till they came to a decision on them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sub.
mitted it would be better to let the 6th and 7th resolu-
tion, stand over, and get rid of the remainder at this
sitting. By so doing a bill might be introduced this
week and read a second time on Monday, when the pro-
posed scheme tor the council, the term of office, salary,
&0., could be discussed better tban at present, and legis-
lation for India thereby be completed this session.
Mr. BRIGHT said the mode proposed by the
Chanceller of the Exchequer wee both ingenious and
just. He proposed to get rid of the difficulty by their
saying nothing more about it -(hear, hear)—and the
, dropping the resolution. (Laugoter.) Resolutions
were determined on to discuss the question, so as not to
• I change her Majesty's Government on a discussion on
lan Indian bill, but as there was to be no change of
Government before India legislation had been com-
pleted he thought it would be desirable to bring
as soon as possible. lie ap-
in the bill as proposed
proved of the proposition before the committee, and be
was arxious to get to a second reading of an India Bill
that he might address some observations generally on
the government of India at home and in that coonntry.
After souse remarks from Lord PALMERSTON,
Mr. GLADSTONE said it appeared to be the desire
of the committee Lot to come to a decision on the
question to-day, and the Chancellor of the Exchequi r
wishedithe comrnitttes not to further consider the sub.
jest the,. He (Mr. Gladstone) thought if that plan were
adopted they ought to drop discussion on the remain-
ing resolutions altogether, and wait for the bill. They
were not going to decide on the principle of election
or nomination, the tenure of the councillors,
whether they might have seats in parliament ; whether
there should be a secret committee, and what amount
of salary should be given, which, though it sounded
very much like details, were matters of importance,
because they were closely connected with the
_ rank, consideration, and (17gcitY of the coun-
cil, and the class of men who
were to constitute
the council. If they conceded the Proposition of the
council they conceded all these points. If they agreed
to the suggestion of the Government in this instance he
saw no reason for discussing the remaibing resolutions,
which, to a great extent, were resolutions of details.
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with the suggesion of
the right hon. gentleman, and thought it would be
better now to proceed as soon as Possible by bill.
He looked upon the scheme of the Government as a
scheme of nomination by the Crown. He asked an
explanation from the noble lord the President
of the Board of Control relative to patronage,
which would lessen discussion on this point—whe-
ther cadets were to be appointed by con-
petition ; and whether the council was to have communi-
cated to them the dispatchs on foreign affairs, as well as
these relating to the internal affairs of India. It was
necessary the council should possess a full knowledge of
all that referred to India, and some restraint should be
placed on their going to war. He should raise discus-
sion on the bill on these questions if the explanation
was not satisfactory to him. He thought the remaining
resolutions might be reported to the house that a bill
might be brought in as soon as possible.
Lord STANLEY said it was never the intention of
her Majesty's Government to take a final decision to-day
on the plan he bad submitted to the committee, but to
give them time and opportunity for its discussion and
consideration. (Hear.) He did not consider the mode
of election proposed was an indirect mode of
nomination. The principle of open competition was
valuable, and might be beneffcial in its results on the
distribu'ion of military patronage, ought to have a fair
trial ; at the same time, he considered it was an expe-
riment, and one which the government ought not to
undertake to do, more than to give it a fair trial, on a
scale sufficiently liberal to permit its being properly and
thoroughly tested. The old patronage ought to remain as
at present as much as possible. The minister should have
a share of it, but the great mass of it should remain
in the bands of the council. Ho could not then
give a definite opinion as to the second ques-
tion of the noble lord the member for the city
of London ; and with reference to war, he thought
it would be impossible to lay down any definite

plan, because war might arise from local circumstances,
which it would be impossible to avoid before a cornrou-
nic,►tion could be made t', this country and instructions
vent i Ist. He thought the resolutiora before the house
had answered the purpose for which they were intended.
(Laughter.) Enough had been elic'ted in debate on this
question, on which to introduce a bill, and her Majesty's
Government were prepared to adopt the suggestion and
and bring in a bill as soon as possible. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MANGLES approved of the plan now before the
committee. He thought it would work better than a
council merely nominated or ent'ry;y electcd.
[LEFT SITTING I

LAW INTELLIGENCE—(f his Day.)

COURT OF DIVORCE.

(Sitting of the full Court—Mr. Justice Wightman, Mr.
Justice Williams, and Sir C. Cresswell, judge
ordinary.)