The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-13 00:00:00

to believe that had there lately been no change of Govern-
ment an additional 3s. per week would have been granted
to these hard-working operatives ; and he therefore ap-
pealed to the present Ministry whether they would not
fitly inaugurate their advent to power by doing an act of
justice to an humble but deserving class? The men com-
plained that they had been deprived of a superannuation
pension of 151. per annum which they formerly enjoyed ;
and they asked why it was that they were the only class
of Government employes to whom this advantage was
denied?? At present one or two Lords of the Admiralty
walked round Woolwich Dockyard periodically, and picked
out annually five or six, or at the most seven poor labour-
ers broken down with age and infirmities, and recommended
thorn for a pension of 12/. a-year. But this was an entirely
voluntary and spontaneous act, there being no regular sys-
tem of superannuation on which the men could depend.
It might be said that the measure he recommended would
cost the nation 20,0001. per annum ; but he confidently
believed that the public would not grudge such a sum to
maintain these poor men and their families in comparative
decency and comfort. He regretted that it was not com-
petent for him to divide the house on this subject ; but he
trusted that the appeal which ho now made would be gene-
rously responded to.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could give no distinct pledge, but
ho would take the whole subject into consideration, and
should be ready to do anything for these men which could
bo done consistently with `:lie interests of the pubiic ser-
vice. He reminded hon. members that all these discus-
sions might be renewed on a subsequent occasion, and sug
gested that no further questions should be raised, but that
the house should be allowed to proceed as early as possible
to the consideration of the Indian Loan Bill. (Hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that this was merely a question
of demand and supply, and it ought not to be settled either
at the Admiralty or anywhere else on any other principles
than those of sound political economy. The late Board
had no intention even of considering the subject, and he
hoped that a similar course would be followed by the pre-
sent one. If the right hon. baronet held out any hopes of
an increase of wages he would be overwhelmed with
petitions from all the dockyards.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could assure the hon. member for
Dover that he had not intended to hold out any hopes.
His promise of consideration referred rather to the question
of superannuation than to that of wages, and he had care-
fully guarded himself by intimating that in whatever he
did he must have regard to the interests of the public
service. Now, ho was afraid that if men could be obtained
for 135., it would be rather hard to prove that it was for
the interest of the publics service to pay them 16s.
Mr. WHITE was quite ready to accept the inexorable
rules of political economy, if they were applied itt all cases;
but, without disparaging the labours of the late Secretary
of the Admiralty, he had no doubt that a person could have
been found who would discharge the duties of that office,
he would not say as well as they were discharged by the
hon. member for Dover, but certainly for much lower
wages. (A laugh.) If the strict rules of political economy
were not applied in the higher branches of her Majesty's
service, he did not sea why they should be so rigidly
enforced in the lower ones.

Mr. ALCOCK had spoken to three or four gentlemen
who were acquainted with Indian affairs, and among ()ther-
e
to the Chairman of the East India Company (Hr. Man' tee)
but he could not obtain from them the slightest ;Info'roars.
tion on this subject. (Laughter.) Ho hoped +
'ee Minister
for War would institute some inquiry
as to
European troops in India. 'the clothing of
Mr. MANGLES had told the in,.
gentleman that the
expenses of her Majesty's forces 'in India. were defrayed by
the East India Company, b" s he could not inform his hon.
friend what amount wags deducted from the pay of the men
for any portion. of 'their dress. Those details were not
within his e?gr:szance, but he supposed the system adopted
in this c°l7.cry was also in force in India.
GeuP:eal PEEL said the extra clothing suitable to the
°lir:Late of India was supplied to the troops by the East
India Company, but he would cause inquiry to be made on
the subject to which the hon. member for East Surrey
(Hr. Alcock) had called attention.
Col. SYKES observed that the native soldiers in the
East India Company's service had not only to pay for their
kits, but for every ornament of their dress, out of 14s.
a month, while from such charges the European soldiers
were altogether exempt.
Mr. BAG WELL had found that applications were made
to young men who were studying for the military profes-
sion by parties who stated that they were authorised to
give them commission, provided they raised a certain num-
ber of men. Such an application had been made to a re-
lation of his even, and it struck him as very odd that while
the applications of young gentlemen of fortune and station
for commissions on condition ofraising men were uniformly
refused by the authorities, persons who represented them-
selves as army agents should say that a certain sum might
be lodged in a bank, which should not be withdrawn until
a commission was granted. It would seem, certainly, from
this circumstance that there was no attempt at fraud, but
it was stated that if some 50 men were raised a commission
might be obtained without purchase. He thought such a
proceeding was very strange and irregular, and he wished
to know whether the Secretary for War could give any
explanation on this subject.
General PEEL could give no explanation, and could not
understand how such an oeourrenee could have taken
place. The hon. gentleman had made the statement from
his own personal knowledge, and he (General Peel) would
have the matter inquired into.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 1,227,0001. on account of pay and allow-
ances to her Majesty's land forces.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS asked what bad been the result
of the important change which had taken place respecting
the army clothing, which was now supplied by the Go-
vernment, instead of by the colonels of regiments. The
estimates were so confused that he found it impossible to
ascertain the comparative cost generally ; but he found
that the cost of the Guards' clothing was now 40 per
cent. more than it was in the time of the Duke of
We! lington. He thought this most extraordinary
and most unwarrantable extravagance. The present
Government could not make themselves more popu-
lar than by effecting retrenchments, especially in matters
of this kind, and this was a subject to which he trusted
the right hon. and gallant General would turn his
attention. From what had transpired before the Committee
on Contracts there seemed to be an immense amount of
unfair dealing in connection with these, and unless the
system was amended, and the receipt of perquisites put a
stop to, especially in army contracts, no respectable man
would offer to supply them.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN asked whether the present Govern-
ment intended to adhere to the principle of competitive
examivatioa in reference to the engineers and artillery.
Some change appeared to be in contemplation, for it
seemed that only on two more occasions was this principle
to be recognised at Woolwich.
General PEEL was much obliged to the hon. gentleman
for giving him this opportunity of stating what, so far as
he was concerned, had taken place on this subject. It had
been recommended by the Council of Education that all
candidates for the military service should pass through the
college at Sandhurst. Not only would they as heretofore be
subjected to competitive examination, but as far as the en-
gineers and artillery were concerned the candidates for
these services would in future have to undergo a double
competitive examination. It was, however, pointed out to
him that under the new arrangement great hardship would
be inflicted on several gentlemen who had been preparing
themselves for examination at Wool wich, because they would
be past the age at which they would be admitted to Sandhurst.
This was also represented to the Commander-in-Chief, and
the result was that two more competitive examinations were
directed to take place at Woolwich in order to allow those
gentlemen to undergo examination there who would have
boon too old for Sandhurst. The principle of competitive
examination, he repeated, was not at all given vp ; hut, nu
the contrary, so fax. es the engineers and artillery were con-
cerned, they would be subjected to two examinations, one
on entering the college; and candidates would have no
more difficulty in entering Sandhurst than in presenting
themselves at Woolwich. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. I'. O'BRIEN asserted his right as the representative
of a popular constituency—as one of the people and no
aristocrat—to know the reason why a change had taken
place after the success which had attended the new system.
The house and the country had a right to be told this, and
to know why an admission to Sandhurst was to be made
necessary.
Mr, GLADSTONE said it was refreshing to hear an hon.
gentleman assert the right of the house to institute in-
quiries, and as a member of the house he begged to thank
the hon. gentleman for his care of its privileges. (Laughter.)
The question which the hon. member had raised was one of
great importance, but he did not seem to have caught ac-
curately what had fallen from the right hon. and gallant
General the Secretary for War in reference to the subject.
If he (Mr. Gladstone) understood his right hon. andgallant
friend correctly, he had stated that the interposition of the
preliminary course at Sandhurst had been recommended
merely as a measure of practical utility by the Council of
Education, and was not intended in any way to bear upon
or to restrict the principle of competition, upon which, if
it had any influence at all, its effect would be to substitute
a double for a single competition. If that were so then
the statement of the gallant general could, he thought, be
unsatisfactory neither to the hon. gentleman opposite nor
+o the committee. There was also another statement
made by his gallant friend which he heard with much plea-
sum e—namoly, that the competitive entrance to. Sandhurst
under the new system would be practically free for all her
Majesty's subiects as the public competition at Woolwich.
General .PEEL said that any person seeking to be placed
on their list of candidates for admission to Sandhurst had
merely to apply to his guardian or seine other person who
could bear testimony to his respectability, and he thought
it was desirable that some such reference should be re-
quired, but beyond that there would be no limitation
whatsoever. (Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following
votes :-
206,0001. to defray the expenses connected with the pay
and allowances of our land forces at home and abroad.
100,0001. for the embodied militia.
30,000'. for the volunteer force.
60,0001. for the departments of Secresary of State for
War and General Commanding-in-Chief.
116,000/. for manufacturing establishments, military
storekeepers, Etc.
180,000 e. for wages of artificers and labourers.
229,0001. for clothing anti necessaries.
361,0001. for provisions, forage, Etc.
214,000/. for warlike storm.
93,0001. for fortifications.
50,000 foi civil buildings.
222,0001. for barracks.
55.0001. for the educational and scientific branches.
9,000/. for rewards for military service.
20,000/. for the pay of general officers.
138,000/. for the pay of reduced and retired officers. •
69,000/. for pensions to the widows of officers.
17, 00/. for pensions to wounded officers.
10,0001. for Chelsea and Kilinainham hospitals.
4,000/. for of at Chelsea.
44,00 e/. for eueerannuetion and retiring allowances.
The CHAIRMA:4 then reported progress, and the SPEAKER
having resumed the chair, the resolutions passed in com-
mittee of supply were reported to the house.
EAST INDIAN LOAN BILL.
On the order of the day for the farther consideration of
this bill as amended,
The C AANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
houseno
bill coal I be of greater importance, and he hoped
of
the
the East
would pass it with unanimity. Th
India Company 'were urgent, and ho wantstrusted the house
would consider the measure irrespectively
ecotiovveelrynomf
etnhtefoqrstlenstdiioa.n
of what might be the future form
The urgency was not a question of days but of hours, and
he did not think that the sum asked for in the previous
bill 8,0e0,00e/.—was too large. A question existed as to
the 11th clause—(hear, hear)—which it was proposed to
expunge—(hear, hear)--but he hoped the bill would pass
without opposition.
Mr. CARD WELL expressed his approval of the rejec-
tion of the 11th clause.
Sir E. PERRY had no objection to adopt the most
effectual means for supplying the East India Company
with funds, but could not give his assent to the bill or to
the proposition on which was founded.
Mr. BAILLIE hoped there would be no opposition to
the bill.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY hoped there would be no ob-
jection to a clause of which he had given notice, viz., that
on or before the Ist day of February ;n eaclh year the
court of directors of the East India Company, under such
direction and control as aforesaid, shall prepare, or cause to
be prepared, a return of all loonies raised on loan under
the provisions of this act, and of the expenditure thereof;
also, a return of all stocks, loans, debts, and liabilities then
chargeable on the East Indian revenues, at home and
abroad, up to the latest patio 1 , of time to which such
returns shall be made out. That all such returns shall be
presented to be- h houses of Parliament on or before the let
clay in February of each year, if Parliament is then sitting,
and if Parlionient is not sitting, then such returns shall
be presented within ten clays of the first meeting of Parlia-
ment after the Ist day of February in each year.
Mr. MANGLES said that the lion. and learned member
for Devonport proposed that this country should guarantee
the loan, obtaining its remedy from the revenues of India;
hut if those revenues were fluctuating and insufficient to
meet the claim, he could not see, according to the view of
the hen, and learned member, how this country could get
its ultimate remedy. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. CRAWFORD reminded the house that the Indian
railways were already paying a larger dividend than would
cover the guarantee of this loan.
Sir G. LWIS said that if ho was not mistaken, the
operation to which the honourable gentleman alluded con-
sisted in the conversion of a 5 per cent. stock into a 4 per
cent, stock, which was done with the perfect assent of the
bondholders. That, therefore, was not an act which could
with any justice be designated as an act of spoliation.
Whoteer it was financially a successful operation was
another quotion, lip mint at the same tittle he permitted

Sir E. PERRY said that the hon. member for Dover
had in his remarks done great injustice to his late chief,
because during the last year the wages of the labourers
were increased is. a week. When these wages were origi-
rally fixed they were rather above those of agricultural
labourers. Since then there had been a general increase in
the rate of wages, and they were now below the rate paid
to the same class of workmen.
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY agreed with the hon. member for
Dover that this was a mere question of demand and supply,
and ought not to be considered upon any other prin-
ciples.

General CODRINGTON thought the question was whe-
ther the wages were high enough to induce the best class
of labourers to do tho work of the Government. He
doubted whether that question could ba answered in the
affirmative.

Sir J. ELPHINSTONE admitted that the Government
could get plenty of men to enter their service for 13s. a-
week:but they would not obtain the best labour for that
money. In addition to their low rate of wages it should
be recollected that the families of the dockyard labourers
were tied to certain spots where the local burdens, in con-
sequence of the Government not contributing to the sup-
port of the poor, were excessively high. Ho would take
another opportunity of referring to the subject.
Mr. STUART supported the vote. The rate of wages
had fallen considerably during the last few months, and if
13s. a-week was deemed sufficient a year ago there was no
reason for increasing it now.
Mr. GLADSTONE hoped the Committee would look
with jealousy upon applications from the representatives
of particular towns for an increase of wages among their
constituents. It had been said that the Government paid
13s. a-week and did not get good work for it. Were they
quite sure that they could improve the quality of the work
merely by raising the rate of wages ? It seemed to him
that the difficulty lay deep in the nature of Government
establishments. A labourer was apt to go into one of those
establishments with very different sentiments and feelings
from those with which he entered into the service of ti
private owner. When ho went to serve a private indivi-
dual he knew that he must stand upon his own merits,
and that his work would fetch its real value but no
more. On the other hand, he obtained a lmission to a
Government establishment generally by solicitation ; the
whole course of his ideas was dislocated, so to speak, by
the manner in which he got there, and it was wrong to
suppose that by merely raising the rate of wages we
could secure a supply of good labour. How that dif-
ficulty was to be overcome he would not undertake to say ;
but he believed the wise and practical conclusion would be
to have no Government establishments whatever for menu-
factures, except in cases where they were absolutely neces-
sary. No Government could carry on manufactures except
at a great disadvantage, and he trusted, without meaning
the slightest reproach to hon. members, whose duty it was
to stand up manfully for the interests of their constituents,
the House would receive with a jealousy proportioned to
their fidelity and zeal the representations which they made
in favour of increasing the wages of their local friends.
(Hear, hear.)
fair V. RA ItTNG was sorry to say that he bad often in-
curred no small degree of unpopularity by telling his con-
stituents that the members for dockyard towns did more
harm than good by pressing for an increase of wages. He
was not surprised that an es-Chancell )r of the Exchequer
had met the demand for such an increase by saying " Dis-
miss all your dockyard labourers, and get the work done
by private contract." Such, he was convinced, would be
the result if the expense of the dockyards were very con-
siderably augmented. At the same time the dockyard
men did their work fairly and well, and during the late war
their zeal and energy were conspicuous. (Hear, hear.)
The veto was then agreed to. ,
A vote of 23,0001., on account, for the wages of artificers,
labourers, and others employed in establishments abroa-1,

was also agreed to.
On the vote of &0,0001. for defraying the expenses of
naval stores for the building, repair, and outfit of the fleet,
and for the purchase of steam machinery,
Sir C. NAPIER said, we were now building the finest
fleet in the world, but there was one point to which he
wished to direst the attention of the Government. It was
a fact—a fact which the present Emperor of the French
was one of the first to discover—that an iron-sided ship
was far more cap ,ble of resisting shells than a timber one.
He believed that a frigate of twenty guns lined with
iron four inches thick could in a very short time
destroy a three-decker of 100 guns. We had not yet dis-
covered any means of preventing iron ships from fouling,
and he could not help thinking that the Government ought
to offer a handsome reward for the accomplishment of that
object.
The ♦ote was agreed to.
A vote of 250,000/. for new works, improvement 7, and
repairs was pased without discussion.
The following sums was :Also taken on account :-
20,000/. for medicines and medical steal.
30,000/. for miscellaneous services.
300,0001. for half-pay, reserved half-pay, and retirement
to officers of the Navy and Royal Marines.
200,0001. for military pensions and allowances.
70,000/. for civil pensions and allowances.
250,000/. for conveyance of troops.
40J,000/. for tho packet service.
ARMY EgTII{ATES.

General PEEL, who was very indistinctly heard in the
reporters' gallery, said that in accordance with the agree-
ment into which the house had entered he' should merely
ask the committee to vote the whole number of men for
the army, and a portion of the money upon each of the
other votes. The vote for the number of men might per-
haps require some short explanation. The number he
should ask the committee to vote on the present occasion,
exclusive of the Indian establishment, was 130,135, as
against 126,796 voted last year, showing an increame of
3,339 men. But this by no means showed the true state of
the army. The total strength of Her Majesty's forces, in-
cluding the troops in India, had increased from 156,993
men in last year to 222,874 required for the present year ;
the increase being 65e-431. This arose from the numeer of
troops cent from this country to India. The force charge-
able to the East India Company, including the depots at
home, would be for this year 92,739 as against 30,197
last year, showing an increase on the East India
Company's establishment of no less than 62,542
men. There had been cent to India last year, when the
India establishment was voted, four regiments of
cavalry and 24 regiments of infantry, and there were now
there 11 regiments of cavalry and 60 regiments of infantry.
There had been sent out seven additional regiments of
cavalry and 36 additional battalions of infantry, thus re-
ducing the force of the home establishment by that num-
ber. It was intended to meet the withdrawal of that
force by raising 2G new battalions of infantry, and two
additional regiments of cavalry, and this accounted for the
increase in the present year of 3,330 men over the number
voted in the last year, for though there was a reduced
number of regiments the strength of each had been in-
creased.
but
did not know what tho increase was in the
cs.valiY, but in the infantry it was from 840 to t5O. It
was, however, an extraordinary fact that though the
number of men was increased the payment was absolutely
lees than in last year. This arose from the number of
regiments sent to India, for the pay of the colonels then
became chargable to the East India Company, and the new
battalions had no colonels, while the number of the non-
commissioned officers was not increased but diminished.
Therefore there was a decrease this year in tho whole sum
to bo voted for pay and allowances of 706,990/. He was
happy to Fay that the recruiting was going on atithe present
time in a more favourable manner than he could by possi-
bility have anticipated. (Hear, hear.) During the time of
the Crimean war he believed that the greatest number of
enlistments in any one month was about 6,000, but in the
last month the enlistments had amounted to 7,500. (Hoar.)
There Lad been enlisted, including recruits for the East
India Company, at the rate of 6,000 men a month, making
36,000 enlistments during the last six months. (Rear.)
The gallant general concluded by moving the vote for the
number of men.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS expressed his surprise that after
the enormous sums of money voted for barracks the accom-
modation in them should be exceedingly defective. If the
money had been expended honestly all the barrtcks which
wart
werero.ui
Ag• e
heLtneinoroecwd
Ktt
oos
abaiecdci ointmawmnaoes aheteieebtn letileisetvaa
ert
d, gednuerrianl gl
y. the
un
dl
ea
rs
stood that the East India Company supplied bedding and
clothing gratuitously to the Queen's troops employed in
India, but he had been informed by a relative that in
some cases the only clothing supplied consisted of two
linen caps, while the soldiers were required to pay half
thecost of their bedding.
Sir J. TRELAWNY complained that the brigade of
Guards, which was a very strong force, was entirely
exempted from colonial duty. It was suspected that the
reason of this exemption was that the officers of the
Guards were more or less connected with the aristocracy,
and were appointed by the colonels of the regiments of
Guards, and not upon the responsibility of the War De-
partment. He thought it desirable that battalions of the
Guards should be sent to Madras, Calcutta, and Bombay,
as the young officers of the brigade would then have an
opportunity of. seeing something of the world, and of
acquainting themselves with their professional duties. He
thought, also, that such a change would be beneficial to
the health of the men, for he believed that from long rcsi-
(Waco in London they contracted bad habits, which might

~.............•
-- • _ .
in some measure account for the ill health that was attri- i to enter his protest against giving the imperial guarantee
buted to the state of the barracks, He saw no reason why , for loans for Indian or colonial keeping, unless in cases of
the aristocratic officers of the Guards, brave and intelli- absolute necessity. (Hear, hear.) It was quite absurd to
gent as they undoubtedly were, should be placed in a po- say there was any real necessity in the present instance.
sition which gave them more rapid promotion than could Indian Bonds were at that moment at a premium of 25e.
be attained by persons of a lower grade in society. A cap- or 305., and therefore it was apparent the East India Com-
tain intheiGua,rds at once became a lieutena.ut•colonel, and parry could borrow moaey on easier terms than most of
he (Sir J. Trelawny) was informed that the:pay and allow- the continental countries of Europe.
once of au officer of the rank amounted to nearly 1)001. After a few words from Colonel SYKES and Mr.
a-year. Independently of the advantages in respect so pay, CAMPBELL,
the officers of the Guards obtained rapid promotion ; and The bill as amended was then agreed to.
during the war in the Crimea many of the higher military THE INDIA. BILL.
appointments were held by Guardsmen. He hoped the Upon the order of the day for the second reading of this
gallant-general at the head of the War Department would bill,
brin the appointment of officers of the Guards under his Lord PALMERSTON said—l presume, sir, the
own authority, and would not countenance a system which Government have a bill of their own to introduce
was prejudicial to the interests of the service. on this subject. lam willing, therefore, to stone
General CODRING TON thought it was most desirable this bill until the house shall 'Bee what the Govern-
to was
to retain in London such a corps se
he
Guards hi h ment intends to propose. I viould, therefore, put this
eall suited to the performance of military duties in bill down for an early day afte't Easter, by which time we
the metropolis. He knew that, in several cases, officers of may expect the measure of the Government will be ma-
' regiments of the line had been very glad to withdraw their turgid. I will, thereforP„ propose Thursday, the 22d. of
men from the temptations by which they were beset in At rill for the second reading of the bill.
Lon
osdt on, an which rendered the maintenance of discipline The motion hp:ving been agreed to, the order was die.
m difficud lt.
General PEEL said that the clothing of her Majesty's charged.TUP.l,KE ROADS IN SCOTLAND.
troops in India was supplied by the East Indian Govern- Leave 'was given to Lord ELCHO to introduce a bill to
1 Inept, and was not under the control of the War Depart- aboljss4 tolls and statute labour in Scotland.
meat.

CASHEL ELECTION.
Sir F. BARING moved that the petition of John Joseph
Scully, presented to this house on the 18th day of August
last complaining that general and extensive bribery pre-
veiled at the last elec ion for the borough of Cashel, to-
gether with the recognisances entered into in respect of the
same petition, and the report of the examiners of recog-
nisances in respect of that recognisance, be referred to the
general committee of elections.
Colonel FRENCH objected to such a proceeding.
Sir J. D. FITZGERALD contended that the petition
could not proceed, as the parties had not had proper notices
and they could not now be given.
Mr. WALPOLE suggested that the matter should here-
ferred to the committee, to inquire into and report on the
circumstances under which the matter had lapsed, that the
house might be placed in possession of the actual facts.
The motion was amended accordingly and agreed to.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.
Leave was given to Mr. CAIRD to bring in a bill to pro-
vide for the collection of agricultural statistics.
The bill was then read a first time, and the house ad-
journed it ten minutes to one.