The Sun.
London, England, 1804-04-26 00:00:00

ti.erreel rOnSiStentri 2‘i,plol t of the former. My
manner Of forming it would be also different,
ord ,his I shall now lay before the House.
My first view, then, is to reduce the Militia to
40,0c0 in England, and from 12 to 73,003
its Scotland, and to increase the Army of Rel..
-serve as a substitute for it in the same proportion.
t present we have a Militia Establishment of
:00,000 men. Of these I would take rS,OOO from
the Militia of England, and 4000 from those of
.Scotland. I would by no means propose to. do this
suddenly, for it would be improper, :ina perhaps
dangerous, all at once to reduce or interrupt that
sort of Force which we now have. But when va-
cancies occurred in the Militia, instead of filling
them up, I would have the men applied to the other
and more efficient Force. This would be attended,
at the same time, with the material advantage,
that one-half would be withdrawn from the competi-
tion that now prevails with the Regidar Army.
My first objea then is, not to reduce, but to alter
the proportions of our different kinds of Force, and
to enlarge that out of which the Regular Army
may Iv! most easily recruited ; and if now, when
of the 40,000 fixed for the Army of Reserve, only
30,000 are raised, 9000 have eiigaged in the Re.
gular Service, the chance is still greater, if the
raising of Militia should be stopped, and that
sort of Force increased which has an obvious
tendency to enlist in the Army. What I, 2dly,
entitle to assume is, that the objeas for which
we contend are so important, that the Country will
be disposed to submit for their attainment to in-
tonveniencies which would otherwise be iniolerable,
and to privations which on no other account could
with justice be imposed. No exertions that can be
made are to be omitted at a crisis so unexampled as
the present, so big with the destiny not only of this
country, but of the world ( Wear ! Hear !). No
privations are to be murmured at, no efforts left on-
tried, when we ?re assured that our duty is not only
to save ourselves from subjugation, but that whatever
may he the wreck of Europe, to take care that this
Country shall ever form a glorious exception ; (icmd
frier " Hear! Hear!") however Europe may be
cverwhelmed,it is our duty to take came that this cor.
rer of the world at least shall be safe from the fury of
the tempest (had cries of " Hear! Hear!") and not
only that we ourselves shall be secure, but that we
should possess a Force that may be a resource to other
Nations, whose alliance may be of advantage,or when
they may be reduced so low, that their alliance
can neither be an advantage nor an honour, in order
tto rouse them to energy and co-operation ( Hear !
Hear!) We are not now to look to questions .of
inconvenience to individuals, to parochial difficul-
ties, and objeds of small importance; but exert
every nerve to rouse the Nations against the Com-
mon Oppressor; and if they will not be instigated
to join us, we are to bear every pressUre, rather
than be chained down to defend our own shores,
instead of filling the rink which we have former-
ly held in the eyes of Europe, or seeing the Eu-
,ropean Nations degraded to such a situation, that.
the question of rank among them would be nothing
(enthusiastic cries of " Hear! Hear!") The idea,
then, which I wish to convey is, that a Force ought
to be raised which would afford a constant supply
to the Regular Army, in case of the failure of the
ordinary means of recruiting in any emergency,
when a number of men might suddenly be wanted.
The second objeft is, that out of between 6o and
70,000 troops so raised, a certain number should
be allowed to enlist in the Regular Army at certain
periods ; and that the vacancies should be filled up
by ballot, the manner of avlich I shall explain. I con-
ceive'that by this plan front to to tg,cco men might
annually be added to the Regular Army, indepen.
dent of the ordinary means of recruiting, and these
too much more important and serviceable men than
any that could be obtained by other methods. Thus
our offensive force would be rapidly multiplied,
whilst our defensive force would also be enlarged
and rendered more efficient. The sphere of our ex-
ertions may in this manner be extended, and such a
force constituted as will be superior to any other, both
for the defence of the coast, and for foreign service.
But it is not my intention to stop entirely at this
method of supplying the Army by means of this
Force ; I exped also to be enabled to frame and con.
stitue it in such a mariner as to render it not only
fitted for facilitating the supply of the Regular
Army, but also peculiarly well calulated for inter-
nal defence. What I mean is shortly this : as the
Army of Reserve now stands, it is dispersed in
separate battalions, having little or no connexion
with the battalions of toe Regular Army, and

out of these all were allowed at any time, to
enlist in the Regulars this has certainly a bad
effeEt upon the discipline of those Troops. Now
I propose, that the measure which I shall bring
forward shall establish a permanent connexion
between the Battalions of the Army of Reserve
and the Regulars that have teen raised in par-
ticular. Counties. If this system shall be adopt-
ed, this very circumstance will tend materially
to increase the Regular Army and facilitate its
recruiting, by establishing a sort of family connexion
between each Battalion of Reserve and the Regular
Battalion to which it shall be attached. By these
means the passage from the one to the other is ren-
dered comparatively easy. But this ►s not all : as
the affair at present stands, an Officer knows that as
soon as he has brought any body of men to a certain
degree of perfeEtion in discipline, he is in danger of
losing them, and this feeling serves to deadrn the
exertions of the Officer. It has also the bad effea of
undermining, in some degree, the discipline of the
men themselves, who know, that however dis-
agreeable they may tender themselves to theitOfficers,
they have a power of engaging in another service.
But if a connexion was established between two Bat-
talions, then there would be a perpetual transfer of
Officers from one Battalion to another, and the Officer
who brought forward any body of men to a high state
of discipline, would have the hope that, by some
fortunate vacancy, he could have the command of
them, even after they had enlisted in the Regular
Troops. This will form an incredible source of
the very best Recruits for the Army. And another
great advantage is, that the men would pass from
one battalion to another with the experience of
soldiers; and instead of serving under inexperi-
enced and raw Officers, they wil! have the benefit
of being constantly under the eye of veterans, and

of those tahoan they have been accustoime3 to obey,
and, the whole will be very much like the recruit-
ing of an old regiment-. One thcasand, therefore,
of such troops, will he almost worth double
their numhers, as they enter into the service not
as new recruits, but as ready-made soldiers. I
flatter myself, then, that by the plans I mean
to propose, cot only the number of recruits for
the Regular Army will be materially increas-
ed, bait that the quality of those recruits will be
vastly superior to any that could he procured by
other methods ; that the numbers of both our defen.
sive and cfransive Force will be augmented, and its
quality improved. SinCe then an accession is made
to the improvement of the Recruits that must enter
into the Regular ArMy, the degree of competition
that must still remain, may be easily endured. If
this competition can be narrowed, so much the bet.
ter ; but at any rate, the advantages that must ac-
crue from this measure to the Regular Army, both
in the number and quality of its Recruits, will
more than counterbalance every unfavourable cir-
cumstance. Now, as to the mode of raising this
Force, my idea is, that the numbers of the Militia
should be gradually diminished, while the Army of
Reserve shOuld be increased in the same praportio.o,
to the number of about 6.1.,c00 ; and as to rte mode
in which these should be raised, I should suppose
that the most proper one would be by ballot. This,
however, I would by no means propose to be con-
cloaca in the same manner as it Is now managed,
but in a way that might, in its operation, %remove
many of those difficulties with which it is t pre-
sent attended. It has been my endeavour te devise
a plan which shOuld do away, as far as possible,
those hardships which the ballot imposes on
victuals aod on Parishes, in raising money to pro-
cure Substitutes,- and remove those inconveniences
that arise from the competition of its Bounties with
those for the Regular Army, and from the encou-
ragemet)t of crimeieg, -and abuses of a similar na-
ture. Now, Gentlemen very well know, that as
the ballot stands at present, the largeness of the
files, which are out of all proportion, produces
two effects, both almost equally mischievous : the
person who is drawn, in order to avoid the fine,
endeavours to find a substitute, and pays a very
high bounty for this purpose, which materially
interferes with the recruiting of the Army. The
same bad effeCts are produced by the interference
of Clubs, into which people enter . in order to
avoid the heavy personal hardship that might
otherwise fall on the individual. These Clubs
set no bounds to their bounties in recruiting for
substitutes, and are even more disposed to pay
exorbitant sums than the individuals. Both these
circumstances increase the difficulty and -expellee of
recruiting the Army. But in the ballot :Which
mean to propose, I say, that the Bounty mutt be li-
mited. But it is not because I say so, that :his li-
mited Bounty is to be effedual ; I mean to ea:vide
that by this limited Bounty men shall be focured
for the Service. But I do not mean to advance, that
the person ballotted for shall either provide a Substi-
tute for a given sum, or else. he compelled to serve
personally. In case the ballotted man should not
serve personally, I propose that he shall pay a mo-
derate fine, and if he should agree to serve personally,
then that he shall have the same Bounty as would
otherwise be given for a Substitute. . :hese
means an action and re-aaion will be produced,
and the effea of the ballot will be doubled. Mr.
PITT concluded by moving, that this Bill should be
committed this day fortnight.
Mr. SecretarjYOßKE so far agreed with the Right
lion. Gentleman, as to allow that, in the present
instance, the principal objea to be attained was
to increase, as far as was possible, the Regular
Army ; but in that °Ned His Majesty's Ministers
were as anxious as the Right Hon. Gentleman,
however differently they might appear to think on
the mode of accomplishing it. He also agreed with
him in the great principle of recruiting the Army',
that it was absolutely necessary to remove, as far
as
possible, any competition that would interfere with
the recruiting for the
.Regular Army. That this was
the 'wish of GoVeroment, was evident by the very
Bill which was now the objea of discussion ; the
express object of which was to remove the co ape-
titian complained of; and it was on this account that
His Majesty's Ministers wished to suspend the At my
of Reserve Aft. It was allowed on all hands, that
it was of the highest importance to increase the Dis-
poSable Force ; and it appeared to him, that nothing
better had hitherto been suggested fur the accomplish-
ment of this objet, than the measure which Minis-
ters had proposed, of bringing over a certain number
of the Irish Militia who had volunteered their ser-
vices for this Country, and who would certainly
be able to liberate a considerable part of the
Force which is now tied up to the purposes of
mere Defence, and enable it to be applied to any
purposes that the general interests of the Empire
would make it most desirable for. He had heard
with great pleasure, the Right Hon. Gentleman do.
quently describing the advantages which might be
derived from a Disposable Force, in enabling us to
rescue the Continent of Europe from the French
yoke of tyranny and oppression under which it now
groans; he wished much that this Country might have
a Disposable Force sufficient to enable it to inter-
fere, at least in proportion to its extent and its
means, in delivering Europe from this slavery ; but
at the same time that he agreed with the Right Hon.
Gentleman in those general positions, he did not see
that any general ideas suggested by him, would be
more likely to produce this effeet than the Bill now
under consideration for suspending the Army of Re-
serve Act. Before this Bill was brought in, it was
the custom to condemn the System of the Army of
Reserve, on the ground that it interfered with the
recruiting, and now that the Aft was proposed to be
shapended, merely for the purpose of removing the
competition complained of, there was still an oppo-
sition. It had been very much objected to the mea-
sure proposed by Ministers, that the mode of raising
men by giving military rank to those who raise
them, had been universally condemned by military
men : to this he must reply, that the present mode
of giving rank for men raised was materially different
from the system last war. It was not now the plan
to
promote at once to the rank of Colonels those ho
raised a certain number of men. it was merely the
intention of Government to allow Officers to rise a
step, by raising the number of men required of them

«'ltllln the term of st:i montr.i, and if it should hap.
pen-that they were not able within the six mouths to
raise the number of men they had undertaken, to be
no losers, but the recruits which they had raised
were to be taken ofd their hands id the regular boun,
ty, which was to be stipulated by law: As ro the
plat; of the Right lion. Gentleman, and the use that
he wished to make of the Army of Reserve, it-au;st. •

be recolleled that that Army is now deficient by at
least twelve thousand mei), of its proper cumple-
tnent; as long as the present system of balioning, and
subscription clubs to indemnify persons drawn from
serving, should continue, there would be first the dif-
ficulty of raising these le,oco men, under the pre-
sent system, before the system of the Right Hon.
Gentleman had any operation. As the system at
present stood, the soldiers of the Army of Reserve
were ready to enter into the Regular Army : in
Scotland, particularly, almost all the Battalions of
Reserve had either joined the celebrated Highland
Regiments,' the 4zii, and the gad, or else the Low_
land Cameronian Regiment, the zoth. • After a va-
riety of arguments, he concluded by saying, that it
would have been much more regular. fur the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Purr) to have moved for a
Bill embiwite these objects,, or. which he laid so
much stress;, than to bring forward a Motion like
the present.
Mr. PITT explained.
Mr. W HITB RE AD 111 a 'r.e Ri—ht Hon. Ge-
tleman (Mr. Secretary Y0k.....L) had made some
very important concessions in the discussion of this
Motion. Le had confes.c.l ;hat a larger dispos:.4_l!c
Force t'as necessary than what we now had, and

chat it was a most principal objea for the consi.

deration of the House, to-reinforce as rapidly as pos.
sible, the Regular Army. He wished then that these
objeds, which were universally acknowledged ne-
cessary; might be as speedily as possible carried into
execution. He did not, however, approve of the
mode which Ministers had taken ; they had not
come forward in a manly way, with a measure openly
professing the objeds which they had in view, but
seemed perfedly contented by a sort cf side-wind
to accomplish their purpose. This Bill appeared
to him a Bill of false pretences Government pro- •
lessed to wish only for raising men, but it ap—
pared that it was the raising money which was their
first objed, and that the men were to follow. But
of all the concessions which had been made by the
Right Hen. Gentleman, there was nothing which
surprised him more than to hear him confess clog it
might be proper to consider, at length, the various
measures which were now proposed for increasing
the defensive Force of the Country. He even thought,
that it might be proper to bring in a Bill re,ptainge
fat ther measures for the Defence of the Ce untry, ann
yet it was the same Right Hon. Gentleman, who,
two days ago, made a very elaborate speech against
the appointment of a Committee for the very pore
pose for which he now appeared to think it ne-
cessary—(A .loud cry of "- HeaP! Hear !" from all
part! of the House .—Ministers now confessed that
it was necessary to have a considerable
.disposable
Force ; he, too, allowed the necessity of a large dis-
posable Force, although he did not at all approve of
such a Force being lodged in the hands 'of the pre.
sent Ministers ; he did not approve of the appoint-
ment of Military Inspectors, which he thought
would answer no purpo:ie, but creating places for
those persons who were to be appointed to fi,l them.
He knew from the experience he had in that part of
the Country in which he resided (and every Mem-
ber had a right to mention his knowledge from local
circumstances), that the great majority of those who
were baliotted, paid the fine appointed by the law.
It was on this account that he considered the mea-
sure, as it now stood, rather as a measure for raising
money than for raising men. Considering, however,
that the Army of Reserve might, under proper re-
gulations, be a permanent nursery for the Regular
Army, he should oppose the SPEAKER'S leaving the•
Chair.

Mr. BRAGGE defended, at considerable length,
the Bill brouglit in for Suspending the Army of Re-
serve. He could by no means allow that the present
Bill, or the measures which had been proposed in con-
sequence of it, had at all for objeft to raise a sum of
money : it was men that the Government wished to
raise for the immediate Defence of the Country, and
for procuring that disposable Force which it was al-
lowed on all hands was necessary for the exigencies of
the time they had already broiight forward a plan
for adding to the disposable Force, by accepting of
the voluntary offers of Irish Militia Regiments ; they
now proposed' to add to the force of the Country,
no less than IS Regiments. The details of this plan
were not now before the House, and might at a
future time he more properly discussed. He thought
that the mode of raising men by encouraging Of-
ficers to exert themselves for that purpose, and
.giving them Promotion as a reward for their exer-
tions, was by no means liable to the objetlions
which had been so strongly urged against it. He
thought at least that the plan proposed by his Right
Hon. Friend (Mr. Secretary YoRK deserved a fair
trial ; and that if either system was to be tried as.
an experiment, it must at least be allowed :hat the
plan of his Right Hon. Friend having been first
brought in, and in part acted upon, deserved the pri-
ority as an experiment.
Mr. FOX.—" Before I reply to what has passed
upon the subjeEl immediately before us, I cannot
but observe how singular it strikes me, Sir, that the
Right Hon. Gentleman who opened this Debate,
should have said not one word about those Clauses
which he thought of such importance last Friday,
as to require the House to postpone the considers..
tion of the Bill altogether, because he was not
at that time in a sufficient state of readiness
to bring them forward. This, Sir, I confess, does
a gocd deal surprise me, and certainly remains for
him to explain. Before I enter upon the question,
whether or no it is expedient to put cif the Suspen-
sion of the Bill, in order to give time for the consi-
deration of the general plan proposed by the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr.PrIT), I roust also observe,.
that if what is now.stated of the operation of the.
Army of Reserve MI be true, it is next to the Philo-,
pher's stone, the most wonderful thing that ever was
heard of. In the establishment of this Act, it did
wonders ; in its Suspension it is to do the like ; and,•
perhaps, in its repeal it will effect greater wonders
still. At length it seems His Majesty's Ministers
!Live found out that the high bounty offered under the

~

l

AArm),of Reserve Act, does a little intetl'ere
the rzeruitirg of the Regular Army, for so ti's
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. BRAGGE) who just sal
down admits : I do not wish minutely to'bind either
im or his Colleagues to any words that passed
former Debates On this subjea, " sufficient for the
day is the folly thereof ;" hut I must remark, in'"
•I when in. a preceding discussion, this observation
was made to diem, it was direfiiy and explicitly de"
nied. They hitherto have constantly maintained
that the Army of Reserve was no impediment to
recruiting of the general Army ; and produced-
know
-
know ,not how many accounts to prove the va-
lidity of their assertion. Now, if this really w'"
the case; it is obviouseihe.Suspension they propos:,
will, in tact and truth, etfenet nothing at all ; arid it
the Suspension have no et-fea now, hitherto,
would appear, the At ,itself must have been d
little or no use. But let os attend a little to that
argument, and heat how trey explain theselves.---
The Army of Reserve, they say, has produced great
and beneficial effects ; but it is now worn out, 20
has exhausted ail its force.. What is it they me°
by this ? Is the Army of Reserve Aa to If
considered as analogous ,to animal nature ? Is It
like a horse, tor instance, that after lung lahn° '
finds its strength and power decay It so, I per'
feed; understand what they mean, when they s''Y
all the force of the Army of Reserve Ad is exhaust
ed. I should rather, however, conceive this Ai
ewoulrl fall with more tafth under a different
and description- of lonioss ; Coo, for eearniiie, (-
toould bear a greats: '2ltlt)lar.oe to a puenr C)r
well, which being exhaated, are of no further Oct;
not that the mechanism is rusty, or out of ottier',sl
that it will not work, but the water itself, wh'c:
they hove been accustomed to draw, is entirely g°l'l
and completely used. What would be the natter
step in such a case•? To stop the source of cons"(nd:-
tion and let the water fl)mi in. But what do
Majesty's Ministers Jo .They complain the F"UrtLe
is exhausted, and yet they want it to be moreitr);
du ive—i A cry of". !.fear! Hear! Hear Pi
a
stop this pump indeed, tke Army of Reserve' cif
immediately apply to :he same spring, anothrl
larger draught. The Army of Reserve Ad is "`''
Glared incapable of completing its -original-gur°co'l;
which it has reached within a few thous:4.o4lst li
or five, and yet, in: •rfitrig to theleviews of Ni-
nisters, its Suspero, to open-a-SOUICe to Stiro lo •
I 8,000 men, on tears. 11-,r more unfavourable
quantityo
-
of bounty and extent of' service. 1:111-,
plan, according to them, is to restore the 11 /c'
powers of the spring.
_Tile-machinery is to vit,,cll
and the water flow. But, says, the:.Right
Gentleman (Mr. Biinoe,E) who has just sat down, he.
ns consider the order of our proceeding.o ',ll
1 certainly have no objee'zion. According to I"tt
mode we shall observe, that the• Army of Reserve Acri
began with raising men for a limited service, at
has
almost unlimited price. Now, say Ministers, it bas
done all it can, we have got 43,000 men ; its power
are exhausted," and we can get to- alore• Let r;
however, see, if by diminishing the bout-11Y,
enlarging the set vices, we shall not be more
su
cessful.? Now, in my apprehension, Sir, 11°';rl'1-%,
can be more prepotteroos, and contrary to "14
perience, than thii proee-ss of Drier, so-coo c fiLie
than
appealed to. To minUs otherwise-consll'—ii
those of His Majesty'S Ministers, it vvoe-t hnei
the natural course of things, rather " ant
with small bounty and enlarged services ; then
when their effeds became uneroduaivel
to enlarge the one nod limit the other. -0 (to (hi;
stern, however, have gone exaalv contrarY
this
mode, and set all experience and judgment on lot
suojed at defiance. On what is it possible that
they. can ground any hopes of success with resl',iy
to this plan ? The Army of Reserve At has all' oa
produced 13,000 men. Ministers have all alongr
every occasion on which the subjea has been eliscittO
ed, said that the Bill produced more men thao eieo,
have ben produced by any other method. How t 1,0
and by what ii eons, when this most operativeis It
is suspended, are Coelr to get IS,OOO men ?'• irs
by their new plan of g!-,,iug rank ? 111'5 ill,
any efil;a, it must be by a Corespondi°,;
crease of bounty, which they profess to i.,vl?"-..t
what way can it otherwise- have anY
and if that is resorted to, then that corrtl,ett Glees
under another form, is introduced, ene_
think it so essential to the welfare of the%ow
ral service should be abolished. In flt,y we
can any thing else he expected ? But, say "bels'
forbid any additional bounty to be give::•,,,,din'
however, likely ; is it possible, that. 'Qt." eager
or can be followed- by young neare
and ardent after rank, and who may- (110'
ly accomplished their object? Within the tnn-
,riz.
allow, six months only, many active and co('
tog young men may have nearly ,trot their quo'.
it be supposed that they will let all the exPenc for
trouble they may have been-at become 14 no tt-:,la
want of a few remaining men to make up their go' joj
n Surely that conclusion ca never enter into the (I.tt is
of any one.Mini,:ers themselves most know 01
not likely. It is rJetier to' be expeded of
cers will tollow the examp'oe of ara Hon. Filen%'4.ere
mine, who gave soot. to men, half of which r
•rejedeti. With temptations so strong, it i9e
the
culous to say we shall order them not to increa.l cocc
i
bounty beyond the stipulated allowance. Ohen.oy
is imisossibie• inconsistent and contrad 1305
to their own views and objeds, are the Pieno
and measures they introduce. Till this ninri tho
when .hey propose to suspend its operation, have
Army of Reserve Aft was always denied 1 ' for
that effect on the
.general recruiting servi'eop,
which they now contend,. and on which assite of
;inn fait, they have uniformly oßed, 'Pot. the
all admonition from us, untii this late perind /4„0.
War. With regard to the plan of the Righ.t
Gentleman (Mr. i'll-r)• on account which it ,
posed to deter the Suspension of the ArtnYo_,l,
Ice
serve Ad c-
the Right Hoe. Gentleman, 11 iloo
opened it with his usual ability, has not ter
)1.0,
bsoa
bat
)1,1 nute will a
,dvehreani t l'lctiothe
In wt
conside ration of the Ho
many parts of; use. .v it I
stated, however, -I see c `.l
highly .approve, and perhaps some of wlo .
„o
Such
not think quite.‘o fav Ttirabiy•
roder
nisters themselves say it isAir to be c"".
„ce hp -
some future occasion. If so, what pretence
0,1,4
t suspc
they to proceed the r prestot 11.`11

--...........-

';.le Aa, on which it is meant to be engrafted ? ty
Suspending that Bill, they at once cut down the
plan under the feet of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
which aims at improving and rendering it more
produCtive and effectual. Admitting, as Ministers
do, that this plan is worthy of consideration, they
will not wait till it is brought forward, but pro.
teed in another plan of their own to recruit the
Army, and draw from the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman the very means of establishing his. They
put the Right Honourable Gentleman in a whimsical
aituation,which reminds me of what I have sometimes
seen advertised, " a Speech intended to be spoken."
They leave him, indeed, the power of speech ; but
with respea to the Bill itself, he can only -ref it as
a plan intended to be proposed.
In case ofer ato ballot
tinder this plan, it appears the objeal of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that a Bounty shall be given
to the man on whom it falls; that, however, says the
Hon. Gentleman. who Spoke last,
will have no
tifeEt, as I know instances where the man ballotted
has refused the largest Bounties that have been offer-
ed. This general denial, however, rests on very
insufficient grounds. Tie Hon.
Gentleman cer-
tainly cannot know what other
persons will do in
like circumstances, .and that when the whole Re-
cruiting Service of the Army is put on a different
'plan, and the Bounty is limited and uniform, which
is now variable and unlimited. The Han. Gentle-
man also seemed to think that Subscription Societies
would prevent men drawn from accepting the Boun-
ty•; but how they can have that effea.l, I have not
the least conception. I always thought these Clubs
not me-rely legal, but highly meritorious, and do not
see why they should be likely to give higher Boun-
ties to Substitutes than individuals. By repressing
these Clubs, we encourage that spirit of adventure
and gambling, which in other cases we ohjed to and
retrain ; the Club can have no possible motive to
save the individual from service. How is if anoma-
lous that four persons should pay five pounds each
instead of one paying twenty pounds ? What pos-
sible ohjealion can there be to postpone the suspen-
sion of the Bill, if the plan proposed by the Right
honourable Gentleman is to be considered ? Al-
though, admitting the proptiety of this consi-
deration now, they seemed wholly to deny the pos-
sibiliy of such necessity in die Debate of Mon.
day for a Committee
Terence bet ~ as if there was any dll-
and between the Recruiting of the Army
the Defence of the Country. If this plan is
thought proper to be considered, ileny the Committee on the Defence of the Country,
why should they
certainly the most proper place in which to consider
Sit" a plan ? No, say they, that question was tant-
amount
lose ourto a question, Whether we shall go out and
Places, and in that view we cannot agree
to it, although we. know ,aos, must go. Like the
story in Tom Jonea,w_here Partrid an objects tangoing
Toni, <l we m
up a hill. dangerous for robbers ~ W ht', says
true," must die some time." " Ah l very
answered Partride, 4, but it don't follow
that I should have my
throat cut to.night." We
moved for a e
--ornmittee on the State of the Defence
of the Count v 'they immediately
perceived
T., I and
that such an 1• • ~ • • ffe, he an im-
oquiry would, in its e ,
mediate
removal of the Ministry ; and though ap-
Fr°virig, as now appears, of the dire objet`}, were
Willing, to put off the consequential effe6t. So in ft'',
tore, when this plan is brought forward, equally toil,
'they consider it as involving the question. on their
I removal, and on that ground oppose it. . The real
sue.stion at present is, Whether Ministers, by this
proposed.suspension of the Army of Reserve Aa, have
any fair and rational ground of hope of increasing the
Defence of the Country ; or whether we shall defer
that Suspension till a plan of general Recratitiog, lot
'the Army, proposed by a Right Hon:,,G4:ntieman,
Shall he considered previously ? There is no motive
• .
'whatever to resist the proposition of that Right
lion. Gentleman, but a more unbounded. confidence
in Ministers, inferting.that all their planslor the. set-
-vice and Defence of the Country have been so good
and effectual, that we will adopt no measures what-
,
ever that can at all call in question their wisdom
and policy. I must think quite the reverse, and
1 thi -
t_hat s measure stands upon no general or consist_ ie t prin,i
the Pie whatever. All they have done, on
1 contrary, is so confused,• and inei-
inconsistent
letlual, th .
at I Certainly wish to consider any plan,
lather than trust to their's ; and therefore, if I have
any alteration to
. make it •that the postponement
of the Suspension Ad should'is,
!O allow full tin
to be longer titan i4.days,
discothe plan now proposed.
iMiti;eters themselves, on their
tom- own principles, are
bound to cs7.9a'ider it so far as to see whether it in any
degree inte.rferoa with, or affobjects any plan or object of theirs. 'to this I should think none can object,
who do not think Minisaers endowed with superna-
tural Poweays, to shift and tiro cage, and always be in
the righto----ai Ni.
ow all is Volunte'eos! Now ail Mili-
tia! Nova all Army of Reserve ! Yet each, as they
adopt arid enforce it, is sure to be better than the
precedkng. Unless the House can agree to this Cro-
position, I think they, can do no otherwise th,:ll
agtet to the Motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
to postpone the Suspension of the Army of Reserve,
and. take his plan into immediate consideration.
I IMr. BRAGGE spoke a few words in explanation.
adlord C ASTLE RE Atr; H acknowledged the' dis-
vantages he was under in following the Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Fox) who spoke last ; but particularly
on this sot-jet}, upon which he felt himself incapa-
ble of adding to what had fallen from his Right
hon. Colleagues. Much of the argument advanced
to-night had been applied to remove the t ffed of the
resasoning of himself and friends on a former occa-
sion. With respect to the subjed under contemplation,
the most effectual Recruiting of the Army, he had
always seen difficulty in it.
ever, was The true question, how-
, The Parliament should at this mo-
ment stop all proceedings at present in force, to
take into contemplation those proposed instead of
them ? The opinions •
Gentleman (Mr. F now expressed by the on.
ox) Hwere pettedly consistent with
those maintained since the War. He had always
opposed the Army of Resew e, and professed a de_
point he seemed to
tided preference fur the
Regular Army, on which
t
Hon. G goo the full extent of a Right
entleman (Mr. WINDHAM). On the face of
the returns, he had maintained, not that no injury
Was done to the recruiting for the Regular Service,
jut, m that service was more than
Compensated by the greater benefit of the Army of
ReaerVeg It was asked, why Ministers had not

hronght this measure, SZ. allat of raising for
rank, sooner ? He would answer, that the old Regi-
ments then so deficient, were now almost filled up by
the 13,000 men obtained by the Army of Reserve.
Of course new Battalions were now more proper than
before, when the old Regiments were so deficient.
That the measure of the Army of Reserve was origi-
nally right, seemed proved by the testimony of
his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. PITT) himself,
who only wanted to carry it to a state of per-
fe6tion. But that measure being worn out, Minis-
ters did right to resort to some other. They would
nor, however, have been justified in sodoing, till by
their Letters to the Deputy Lieutenants they had
taken every means in their power to render its effeas
permanent ; and his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.Yotext)
would not have been justified in bringing the case
to Parliament till he had appealed to the Magistrates
throughout the Country. The question, therefore,
became, Whether they would leave the plan in .a
state of ineffectual operation, doing injury to other
mode- of recruiting, or suspend its operations alto-
gether, and relieve those services ? The Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. PITT) had, with his well-known
ability, proposed another, and general Plan of
recruiting the Army ; but it would be the height
of Fully, not merely presumption, to rooempt
to form a judgment of it on the first opening.
The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox), however, says,
that suspero).ing the Army of Reserve A& would he
fatal to that plan, aedcallson the House imroediate-
ly to decide. On the discussion of the Militia Bill,
however, his Right Hon. Friend himself allowed the
necessity of consulting the Magistrates and Deputy
Lieutenants, as to the details, before the House came
to a decision; and surely less time should not be
thought necessary to consider a plan wholly new.
Should we be certain that Parliament would ultimate-
ly adopt the plan ofliis Right Hon. Friend (Mr.PITT)
he should think they would not come to a decision on
it for seine months ; and was it to be supposed that
the Army of Reserve Bill was to be left pressiog on
the other modes of recruiting all that while ? The
inconveniences of the Army of Reserve might well
be endured for 35,000, but not surely for one or
2,000. He, however, was by no means unfriendly
to the Army of Reserve ; next to the Regulars, he
thought it the best force, and superior to the Mili-
tia. He too should prefer, as his Right Honourae
Irk Friend (Mr. PITT) had stated, 64.,000 Army of
Reserve, and 40,000 Militia, to 40,000 Army of
Reserve, and• ever z,OOO Militia ; but the prac-
ticability of converting these numbers had not been
shewne When all the exertion of Government had
only produced 35,000 men of the Army of Reserve,
how were they to be raised to 64,000 ? The Mili_
tia surely should not be permitted to lessen its num-
bet s rill that of the other force was increased. He
was, therefore, anxious to keep the Militia,as it is,
till the Army of Reserve had obtained its numbers
of +o,coo in England, and to,ooo in Ireland. The
Bitt of his Right Hun. Friend (Mr. YORKE), regu-
lating the recruiting of the Army, would not pre-
vent that, as it permitted the Army of Reserve to
recruit at a stipulated bounty. At present, the idea
of the Ballot for the Army of Reserve would cer-
tainly raise the price of Recruits, If it were pos-
sible to resort to Parishes in a way not oppressive,
he should prefer that mode, but conceived it was
not. For these, and other reasons, which he spf-
cified, he should feel himself compelled to resist the
Motion of his Right H 'n. Friend (Mr. PITT), and
vote for the Suspension of the Army of Reserve pia,
as proposed in the Bill brought forward by Mr.
YORKE.
Sr; 1.4.11 E PULTENEY maintained, that for the
immediate 'purpose of our defence, at this crisis, it
was of infinite importance that a certain number of
Militia should be transferred to the Regular Army.
He professed to have great respea for the Militia,
but he thought it his duty to say, that good as the
Militia was, there was a material difference between
them and the Regular Army in the field ; it had been
said, that raw undisciplined Troops would sometimes
fight as well as veterans; but it was never yet said
by any bOdy, nor written by any body, that inex-
perienced Officers would do as well in the field as
those of experience. He approved, however, of re.
cruiting the Regular Troops out of the Sopplemen-
tary Militia ; and he observed, that it was to this
plan that this Country owed the conquest of Egypt.
He expressed concern for the safety of the Metro-
polis, in a case of extremity, and ti ished provisions
to be made for its perfea safety, which would be
effeeted with isoioota good men ; for that number
of good men would be better than a greater num.
ber, of inferior quality, as soldiers.
Mr. JYiNDILAM observed, that the doarine
which he had delivered on the subject of the Militia
on former occasions, had been better received than
that of the Hon. General who had. just preceded
him, although he saw no reason for it, for the doc-
trine itself had lately gained ground. But he had
no desire to detain the House long to-night, because
as ioe took it, the question did lie in a narrow com-
pass. observed that from the arguments of
rMi-
nisters, any
o;.'e who had heard them would think
that they would ;Fish to repeal the Army of Re-
serve Bill ; they
said !hat it had produced a good
effdt, but it can no longeejo so, and therefore they
should no longer endure the incoe,veniencies of it ; that
would be a plausible reason for repoling it, but could
be none for its suspension. The truth was, that this,
like all the measures of His Majesty's Min. stets, was
of a wavering and uncertain charaeter. It w 4 5 said
of him and others, that they opposed all the mell-
sures of the present Ministers, good or bad, and
that was stated as .an unprincipled opposition—that
was impossible—no man could oppose more than one
half of the measures of the present Ministers, for one
half of all their measures destroyed the other. The
objection here was, that if the Army of Reserve
should be done away, the mischief it had occasioned
would remain. They did not annihilate the mea-
sure of the Army of Reserve ; they kept up a sort of
Ghost of the Army of Reserve, and that Ghost was
to appear and stalk. about as Ghosts very often did,
for the purpose of extorting money, which, he said,
would be the effea of this Bill ; for the very hope
that
the Army of Reserve should be revived,
would keep in the minds of men the idea of
the enormous bounties which that Bill occasioned ;
and he maintained that the injustice of letting it
fall alike, as by this Bill would be the case, on all
parishes, delinque-it or not, wad a crying evil,

then erne 11+e eittestior., whether the Army of
Reserve Bill should be suspended or repealed ? He
was for the question of delay, proposed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman. Now, if Ministers had
allowed the House to go into a Committee the
other night, every thing might have been done
upon which the House was now debating, be.
cause the House would then have had an oppor-
tunity of hearing the plan of the Ministers, and the
plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and might have
made choice. of -the best. It was, however, not ne.
cessary for him to say, that he should rather enter-
tain the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, than
that of the Ministers ; because the plan of such a
person was sure to have a great deal in it, and the
plan of the Ministers was sure to contain nothing
that themselves would not shortly counteraa : and
therefore it
.was, to say the least of it; comparing
something against nothing, to compare the one plan
against the other in this case. He thought that the
Defence of this Country would be compleat,provided
due attention was paid to the increase of a Regular
Army ; and he thought that could be accomplished
by merely removing the impediments to it, which
impediments Ministers had created, by every one of
their measures in the course of the present War.
He thought that the Army might be recruit-
ed out of the Militia to a much greater extent
than had ever yet been attempted. He would
not relinquish the object which he had long had
in view, and to which he never knew any man of
military knowledge objaa, on the contrary, every
one he ever conversed with approved of it, namely,
that of-enlisting for the line for a term of years, in.
stead of enlisting for life. lie observed, that many
parts of the plan, as it had been opened by the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT), he approved, bur even
if he had not been able to assent to it, he should have
been ready to say that such was the charaaer of that
Right Honourable Gentleman, that any thing he
proposed must be at least worthy of attention, and
therefore ought to be considered; whereas he knew
the plans of Ministers to be of no value ; so that at all
events the House had to consider something against
nothing. There was nothing in any plan of Mini-
sters ; they had been driven to despair : they had been
reeling to and fro, they knew not how, like drunken
men, going one way and then another, without
knowing what was likely to happen to them, con.
founding themselves in every step they took, renounc-
ing what they had once adopted, and adopting what
they had before renounced; destroying their measures
or rendering them. useless, by something of equal
force to oppose a former measure, like ;talon and
re.action, which were equal to each other, and by
which no progress could be made in the moral, any
more than the physical world. He took notice of
the argument which Ministers had made use of upon
the suleisa of the zeal of the Country : it was true,
there was such zeal, but it was a zeal which Mini-
sters had no other share in creating than the sense
of danger into which their measures had brought us,
and the zeal was only a feeling of necessity, of get-
ting over the calamity in which the folly of Mini-
sters had involved us. They had boasted of 4000000
Volunteers being in arms for the Defence of their
Country, and ready to risk their lives in its defence :
it was true they were SO : bt:t Ministers might as
well say the same .'sting of fifteen millions of men,
for all the Inhabitants of the Empire had the same
feeling, and that from the same cause—a sense of
the danger into which the Ministers had brought
diem, and a firm determination to defend their
Country. In a word, there was much in the plan
of the Right lion. Gentleman, which be approaed,
although there was some things which were difTer-
ent from the view he had of things ; but there could
hardly be a plan from any one, much less from such
a person, which he should not wish to attend to, in
preference to that which was now proposed by Mi-
nisters, and therefore he should oppose the Si E ER's
leaving the Chair, to go into a Committee upon the
present Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the LXCHEQUER en-
tered into all the observations of the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had preceded him, as well as those
of other Members, and contended against them. He
maintained that some Gentleman thought that the
Army of Reserve Bill ought to be continued, others
that it ought to be repealed, and yet these Gentle.
men, thus opposite to one another, could agree
to oppose the Speaker's leaving the Chair upon
the Bill, which only went to the suspension of
that Bill, a Bill which he was ready to admit to be
of such a nature, that nothing but absolute necessi-
ty would justify the passing of it, but which neces-
sity did exist, and therefore it was justifiable at the
time it was past, which necessity did not now exist,
and, therefore, the Bill ought now to be suspended.
It had answered a good purpose—had produced
37,000 men, 13,000 of which had gone into the
Regular Service, in a manner which could not have
been accomplished within the same time by any
other means ; it had ceased to operate beneficially , and
therefore it was proposed to suspend it, not to re-
peal it, lest it might hereafter become necessary ; if
so, Parliament would be justified in recurring to it ;
but before, one had no difficulty in saying that no •
thing short of absolute necessity could justify a re-
currence to such a measure. He felt an objeaion
to the system of the Right Hon. Gentleman as a per.
manent military system, because it was founded on
ballot for the internal defence of this Country, and
that upon a large scale. He doubted whether it
would be found consonant to the feelings of the
people of this Country, although upon a particular
emergency they might submit to it in a partial case,-
azad he was in hopes, that next year we should not
be soder the necessity of adopting such a measure
as a get:eral system. He felt an oblation also to
that part tet the Plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman
which went to raise Cavalry Regiments ; there
were some reastens why, in many cases, Gentlemen
in the Country wen: the last who should be employ-
ed in raising men dice for permanent Service, and
their own County, the last place where. they should
do service ; and this might also be very unfavourable
to discipline, It had been said, that Government
took credit for all the zeal and patriotism m tnifested
by the whole people of this Country ; they certainly
beheld it with pleasure, but they did not rest upon it
as any merit of theirs ; far he would ask, if it wars
owing to the zeal and the patriotism of the people
of this Country, that all the ports of the Enemy,
foam the Texcl to the Adriatic, tiad been blacked

rip? Was it owing to the zeal and patrioriem of the
People only, that we had made more acquisitions in
one year of this War, than we ever did before in nanch
longer time ? Was it owing to the zeal of the Peo-
ple only, that we were so formidable in all our mea-
sures ?—Certainly Ministers must, at least, have h-ti
some share in giving diredion to that zeal. He reptile
ed very highly indeed the strength and brave spirit
of the 400,000 Volunteers of this Country, although
he said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman who si3Oke
last, thought lightly of them. He maintained that,
upon the whole, His Majesty had at this moment in
his service, and under his command, a greater force
than was to be found at this time any where
else in this world. He concluded with submit_
ting to the House the propriety of allowing the
SPEAKER to leave the Chair, for the purpose it
going into a Committee en a Bill for suspending the
operation of the Army of Reserve Bill, which hail
continued as long as it was usefUl ; it had answerse.l
the purpose for which it was intended as well as it
could be expeCted to answer it; if it continued any
longer, it would only operate as a competition to
the recruiting of the Regular Army.
Mr. WINOSi AM explained, by declaring, that he
had never applied the ridiculous expressions attri-
buted to him, nor any thing like them.
Mr. CANNING expressed the utmost astonish
ment at the manner in which the CHANCEL.LoR
of
the ExclirQUEß had argued the question, so differ-
ent from that of his Colleagues, who had spoken of
Mr. Pt TT's proposal with approbation and resped,
and rather objeCted to the time of its discussion, than
to its principle. The real object of the Right Hon.
Gent. seemed to be; to held out the proposal of his
Right Hon. Friend in the must odious and detestable
light ; as if, by a forced ballot, it meant to raise men
for foreign service; and as if the whole plan wasfound.
' ed upon the most arbitrary and unconstitutional prin.
ciples. Such a representation of his Rt. Hon. Friend's
I plan, however, was totally repugnant to its meail.
ing and design, and the sense and feeling of the
House must completely refute it. The Right
Hon. Gentleman, who was now so alarmed at
the idea of importuning men raised by ballot
to extend their services, had hone of those scruples
when he, within the last fortnight, eupported a Inca.
sure for bringing the Irish Militia to this Country.
This was an inconsistency which it was for Ministers
to explain. Was it decent or becoming, then, in the
Right Hun. Gentleman, to describe the tendency of
his Right Hon. Friend's plan, to importune men
raised by forced ballots to go into foreign service .?
The only objedion of the Right Hon. Gentleman's
Colleagues was, that the present was not the fit time
for the plan. But they agreed, particularly the Noble
Lord (CAsTLEREAGEI), though, in defending his
own measure, yet, as it seemed, willing to have two
strings to his bow (a laugh), expressed a hope
that the principles of the plan might he discussed on
a future occasion, a hespe, which he firmly trusted,
would be speedily realized.
Mr. BASTARD contended that the plan pro.
posed by Mr. PITT would be the most arbitrary
and uric-institutional that could he conceived, and
instead of its exposing men to be importuned, would,
he feared, expose them to be dragooned into ge-
neral service_ He contended that rhe Militia was a
constitutional force which ought to be carefully .cite.
rished, and without meaning any disresped to the
Army, he was of opinion, that time Militia was a
constitutional check on the Army. As to the Army
of Re erce Bill, he wished it was wholly repealed.
It had been produalve of much hardship and mi.
sery, as he had witnessed, and he hoped pit would
never be renewed. The plan oldie Right Honour.
able Gentleman seemed calculated to produce all the
evils of the Army of Reserve AE., without the plea of
the necessity. He contended that the Country was
' in such a state of preoaration and defence, that so
far from being afraid of invasion, they longedio meet
the Enemy.
• Mr. HAwscoNs BROWNE defended the conduCt of
Ministers.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose, with .consi.
derable warmth, in reply to what had fallen from
Mr. CANNING. He said that a more unenaritable
miscnnstrudion of his Right Hon. Friend's .argu..
ment could noti be conceived .; and he was astonished
that the Right Hon. Gent Leman, who had once.called
Mr. ADDINGToN his friend, and wits acquainted
with his charader, could suPpose him guilty of an ire.
tent ion to hold out Mr. Pert's plan as odious, detest-
able, and unconstitutional. With resped to the spon.
tanenus zeal of the Country, he apprehended that it
would be long ere any Administration formed of tiv
Rt. Elon.Gentleman opposite, would have the credit
of calling forth any spontaneous zeal in the Country.
As to the variety of the measures of Government, it
might be as justly said, that they who opposed all
those measures, which they contended were never
right, were justly liable to the suspicion of having
never been right themselves in indiscriminately op-
posing measures. He contended that the Army of
Reserve Au had .done as much as could be expeilt.
ed, and that the plan of Mr. PITT, even if adopted,
would not raise so many men as was proposed to be
,;:aised by Ministers..
Mr. CANNING slid, he had understood, and did
understand, the scope of the Minister's argument to
be as he had stated.
The CHANCELLOR of the ExcoEQUER. observed,
that nothing he had said or thought, could justify
the imputation of the Right Hun. Gentleman.
Sir j. 1:" ROTT ES LEY appealed to the Hnuse,
whether the impression made by Mr. ADDING-TON'S
Speech was not what had been stated by his Right
Hon. Friend ,(Vlr. CANNING.) Sir Joßst was pro-
ceeding to, enforce this, when
Mr SPEAKERstated, that it was the custom of
the House, if any Member conceived himself misun-
derstood, to consider the explanation he gave as the
true meaning of what was imputed to hint.
After some farther conversation oh the point of
order,
Sir j.kriROTT ES LEY proceeded to argue ;n fa.
your of the Motion, and remarked, that the CHAN..
CELLoR, of the EXCHEQUER seemed to consider the
Army of Reserve Bid as he had considered the
Right Hon. Gentleman behind him, only as a boat
to ferry him over, and to be discarded when there
was tio further occasion for it.
Sir R. BUXTON forcibly described the evils of
the Army of Reserve Mt in its operation, and sup.
ported the Motion.