The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-29 00:00:00

rin SIT LONDON, TUESDAY

assent given by conamisiton to certain bile. [For which, the hon, member extreesel so much ditappeintment at
see L rds' report.] ; its operation, considerable reductions had been made.
e
COLLIERY PRO .IZIETORS -IN THE -FOREST , The boo. member talked of increased expenditure and
OF DEAN. reduced taxation, but it was quite clear that no steps for
Col. KINGSCOTE asked the Secretary to the Trea-
the reduction of the debt could be successful unless you
sury whether the decision given by Mr. Howard, upon
could get public opinion impressed with the policy of
the memorial presented to him by the colliery proprietors reduction, If you led public opinion in that direction
...the public would consent to- reduced expenditure and
• in Oa-Forest of. Dean, in July, 1857, was founded on ther
increased taxes ; tut under any other circumstances a
opinion of the law officers of the Crown ; and, if net, :
whether there would be any objection to take ttuir
: would be impnssible to prest rye regulations for taie spt-
opinion ?
' cal (deject. I'. appeared to him that the great objeetam
.
Mr. HAMILTON answered in the neaative• to the course of the hon. member was that it was one
THE SLAVE SQCTADRON, which could not be put in practice. (Hear) Neither
Mr. M. GIBSON inquired whether it was the inters- i could he agree that the act of Geo. IV. had proved a
tion of Mr. Hutt to bring on this evening his question dead letter. During 18 of the years which had elapsed
since, reductions of the debt bad been made, and in the
with reference to the slave squadron?
Mr. HUTT said it was his intention to have brought other 11 the expenditure exceeded the income, and no
•
appropriation c add be made, In 1829 the surplus in-
the question before the committee this evening, but
understanding that there was some mi understandin
vested was 1,200 0001.; in 1830, 2,000,0001.; in 1831,
amongst gentlemen who took an interest in the subject,
1,230,0001.; it, 1833, 1,700,000/.; in 1834, 1,700,0001.;
ghe should defer his motion for the present, and would in 1835, 500,0001.; in 1836, 500,000/. ; and in 1837,
' . bring it under consideration on going into supply on the 1,500,000/ Then came years of bad harvei t and would
slave trade vote, they at such a time propose to increase the taxes of the
THE FUNDED DEBT BILL, working classes in or 'er to reduce the debt ? (Hoar.)
On the order for going into committee on this bill, During four years inve-tment was impossible, but the
1 moment prosperity returned—in 1844—there was a re-
Mr. WILSON m /yea the foliose& g resolution as an
amendment : --"That this house is of opinion that the i sumption of ineettrnents,
extraordinary expenditure incurred during a war beyond ' Mr. WILSON That Ira the year of the income tax.
what is obtained from taxation, should be raised in the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid
he did not ee, here that affected the areu meet. In 1345
, form of terminable loans, the redemption of which should
;
be provided for within a specified period after the return the investment was neatly 1 400 0001 in 1846,
.of peace ; or, if with a view to grea'er economy, it is 1,200.000/. ; in 1847, 628,000/. ; in 1849, notbine ;
raised by loans in the shape of permanent annuitiee, that but in 1850, there was investea 2,321,000/. li,
a provision should be made for the liquidation of. the 1851 the reduction was 3,000,000/. ; in 1352 it
'same by moderate annual instalments after the war ex
was upwards of 1,800,0001 , and in 1853 it was
penditure shall have ceased, from surplus revenue to 1,000,000/. How, then, c iuld it be seed that the
act of Geo. IV, had fail td ? In the majority ofyears re-
be provided for that purpose." The honourable gist—
ductions had been made, and when they had not the
Wleman pointed out that the committee of 1323
recommended the course for which his resolution country was suffering under various hardships, there
provided, and an act fodowed rendering it impe-
being three bad harvests and a mercantile collapse in
rative to raise by ways and means a sum to pay consequence of what occurred in America. He hoped,
off a certain amount of the debt every year. Now the therefore, that the house would adhere to the act of
• Government came down, and did not ask them to post-
1829, which he thought he had shown had completely
fulfilled I'B intender!, and had considerably reduced the
pone the motion, but to repeal altogether the act of the
Legislature. Taking the amount of funded and unfunded debt whenever there was a surplus revenue. Suppose
*debt at the commencement and close of the war, be found that during the five years of the bad harvests and coin-
that the debt at the close of the war was 25 millions mercial collapse they bad secured a surplus by artificial
larger than at the beginning. In looking to this matter,
means, how much would they not have added to the suf-
brings of the people. That consideration had very much
it wag not his intention to disturb the financial arrange- brings
the government in their financial policy,
merits. of the present year, for he considered the budget
which be was glad to say the house had adopted. They
a settled question. All he wanted to do it) the motion
he had made was to caution the house against repudiat-
saw the crisis through which the commerce of the coun-
ing the obligations which they had so recently con-
try had passed, and they thought that that was n e time
tracted. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the
to talk of reducing the national debt, or of laying on new
taxes to pay engagements of a terminable character, He
Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken a very opposite
view of the operation of the sinking fund from that which
thought that such a principle would have been mist un-
wi e, and he did not think that any minister would have
Was taken by the late Chancellor of the Exeheeper (Sr,
carried it. The hon, member blamed hint for reducing
G. C. Lewis), and which was based upon the recona-
the income tax, upen which he passed a warm eulogium.
mendati ins of the Committee of 1828, and in doing so
Lad fallen into many of the fallacies which had been too But he could not lay claim to having reduced taxation.
lid found the income tax reduced by act cf Parliament,
frequently committed by persons who had dealt with this
subject. The hon. gentleman quoted Mr. Goulburn, Mr. and had he proposed that it should be continued at the
same rate as it stood last year, that proposition would
Hueleisson, and other Chancellors of the Exchequer, in
have amounted to an increase of taxation. 'When, tbtre-
support of the view that we ought always to have bad a
f
sufficient sinkbagfund. The hon. gentleman then entered fore, the hon. gentleman said there had been a reckless
reduction of taxation red a total disregard of the princi-
into a history of the national debt. He observed that it
avas not, as generally supposed, an ancient institution plea upon which public credit could alone be maintained
,
he must remember that there had been not a reduction,
or the means by which we had attained our greatness ; it
was of comparatively modern origin. The first small as the hon. gentleman Fasted, but a considerable increase
debt was contracted in 1690, and in 1792 it amounted to of Taxation during the year in two important instances ;
and with regard to the income tax, all that the govern-
-260 millions, the animal charge being 9
millions. In
23 years later it was increa-ed by 500 millions, and the ment did was to say that, as far as they were concerned
annual charge by 21 millions. It was said that the they would adhere to the decisi in which Parliament had
sinking fund was fallacious, but in sixteen years the pronounced. When, therefore, the hon. gentleman
asked him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) whether
debt Cad been reduced by 54 millions ; whereas in the
succeeding thirty years, from 1828 to 1858, it had in-
he was prepared to repudiate the engagements made by
creased from 800 millions to 808 millions, so that under Parliament in reference to the sinking fund
the more specious but less effectual system the debt, ir• and the repayment of the Exchequer bonds, he
stead of being reduced, was increased by eight millions might in reply ask the hoc. gentleman whether he was
prepared to depart from the equally solemn engagement
in time of peace. 'lnstead cf relying on a fictitious sure
plus, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had never entered into by Parliament in 1853 in reference to the
income-tax? (Hear.) He would not enter into the quea-
been able to repay, they ought to have had a surplus
provided by Act of Parliament, by which in sixteen tion of whether it was an engagement or a compact, or
years they bad been able to pay 54 millions ; whereas
merely an understanding in the way of a barren arrange-
now they had gone on thirty years, and found themselves meat to reduce the income tax if circumstances should
eight millions further in debt. That was not a very allow it, but being an arrangement based upon an act of
creditable or satisfactory result. It might be said there Parliament it was in all respects as binding as the en-
had been additions during that period, and so there bad, gagement in respect to the artificial sinking fund. The
case was a simp'eone; the issue was whether they should
for the abolition of slavery, the famine is Ireland, and
stand by the sinking fund of 1829 or the sinking fu
ed
lence and meet our national duties, without providing a
the Russian war; but were we to exercise our benevo-
adopted two years ago. They could not have both. They
could not have the sinking fund which had worked so
means of payment 1 After all there hail only been two
years of war during that period. What chance had they well and at the same time the sinking fund they adopted
of anything better ? Under the act of 1823 upwards of when the loan for the Russian war was raised. There
27 millions bail been paid off in five years. But we had was no ground upon which they could abandon the sink-
this year put off the payments which fell due, and next ing fund of 1829, which was based upon .sound principles
year we should have two millions more cf bonds, wish ef finance, but one, and that was that it had failed in its•
one million less to pay ii. We were told that we must object. He maintained, on the contrary, that it bad sue-
postpone all this to 1860, but if we did so we should ceeded in its obj •ct. When the country was prosperous
have seven millions falling due that year, when the in- there had always been a considerable surplus applied to
the redaction
come tax would be entirely removed, an the reduo ion of the national debt ; when it was less
and
of the sugar duties would still further diminish the prosperous a emaller surplus was applicable, and was de-
revenue. to that purpose, and when the country was in die-
revenue. No one could believe that those engagements ,
should then be met, and was it wise that finance Mini- tress, and its resources were impaired, then this act, a
sters should bold out fallacious hopes ? He believed faithful mirror of the national fortunes, remained in ope-
that the income-tax was more unpopular in this house ration, and there being no surplus, the public difficulty
than elsewhere, and that out of doors the majerity ef the was not added to by any obligation to pay off the debt.
intelligent portion of the community were of opinion (Hear.) He trusted the house would support the act of
that the income-tax was of all taxes the most inconve- 1829. But even if the hon. gentleman's plan did not
nient, (Hear, and "No, no.") It was strange that those clash with the act of 1829, he was of opinion that it would
who were supposed to be most favoured should cry "No, not be expedient now to lay down rules and regulations
no," and those on his side of the house, that were for a sinking fund, which, according to the hon. g•ntle-
supposed to represent the sufferers under schedule D, man's own view, could not come into operation for four
should cry " Yee, yes." (Hear.) He believed nothing years from the present time, If, therefore, there were no
would be more easy than fur the Ceancellor of the Ex- sinking fund act in existence, he should object to the lion
cherietr to have kept on the second, and many would member's preposition, hut b -Having at he did that the act
rather he had done so than postponed the bonds. (Hear, of 1829 was a wile measure, and that it operated with
hear.) The other day firm hopes were held out of re- advantage to the country, he felt it the more incumaent
pealing the paper duties—as bad a tax in principle as upon him to oppose it.
could be—but it was their duty to pay their debts be- Mr. WILLIAMS said the question was not whether
the sinking fund of 1829 seoula be retains a hut whether
fore they talked of repealing even such ae tax. They
were burning the candle at both onds—reducing taxi- the act borrowing 29,000,000/, for the purposes of the
tion and increasing the expenditure. In respect to the hessian war should be kept iota) ate, There was a con-
succession duties, wi.ilb question was ntaxtd up with ta • cation in that act that this debt should be paid off at the
legacy duty, they had yielded much less than they were rate of a mita en and a belle year, and it would be a die-
estimated to produce. It was said that it was unwise to grace to the country to throw the liquida,ion of that
tie the bands if parliament, but we had already done so. obligation upon p aterity. The Chancellor of the Exche-
We 113,1 incurred liabilities for which parliament must quer in his speech at Slough—(oh, ob)—had taken credit
provide, and it was not for us to avoid a 1 action on our for reducing taxation, but the fact was that the present
oan pert by postponement. We were told it was use- Gov, minuet had p •stponed the payment of two millions
less to order an annual payment, unless ways and means of Exchequer bale for four years, and now it seemed that
were provided. But it was provided. It was as easy fresh burdens were to he thrown upon the people.
for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to provide ways and Mr. GLADS PONE denied that by voting fur this
means fee a sinking fund, or f a tit , reaemptien of the bill the hou e would he guilty ef an act of repudiatien•
debt, as for the payment of annuities, &c , atc. ; but it Ulcer ) When tee '2O 000,0001. was borrow: d, S.r G.
tbey were to rely upon a chance surplus at the end of C. Lewis, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, dist
the year, what surplus was there this year ? He feared tinctly said that the public creditor was not to be Pails-
rather a deficit. The Chancellor of the Eecaecpter, to fled by the yearly payment of a nil lion and a half,
provide a surplus, bad put on a duty on cheques, but Although he felt that the house was under obligation
how could they tell what that would produce ?To make to the honourable member for bringing forward s
out a surplus even then, the Chancellor of the Exchequer resolution, be nevertheless could not vote
for it,thi as
had taken account of reductions in the Admiralty and he felt sceptical as to the soundness of the principles
the roiecellanecue estimates, but the First Lord of the he had put forward. Tee hon. member said that the
Admiralty had already been obliged to trench on budget of the Minister exhibited a deficit, not a surplus;
his share of the saving, and the otter was f and to but if that were so, why had not his hon. friend
be to a great extent fellacieue. A great del was male a prop isal which should ecptalite income and
said about the national defences, but no danger we expendita e ? (dear, hear.) Oa the contrary, his hon.
could incur would be so great as that which arose friend accepted the budget of the Chancellor of the Ex-
from so greet a burden, and if we were once relieved chequer, and in no manner attempted to disturb it,
from that burden, beef the amount wound hl sufficient ([1"7.) Hi.s hon. friend bad made no pr ,posal for the
meat ,:f money, hut simply called upon the hoofs
for the defence of the csuntry. If they wool' c,ai lease
to thr,,a, pre-ent obl•gations upon a future Pathan:lent.
pare our condition in teas respect with other countries,
we would find that in Prance, whose deet was the next (He:r, hear.) As a resolution prospective in its cha-
racter, he could not support it. Alf.hou 41 he agreed in
greateet to ours, it only amounted to 321 mill ono, being
less than half of ours. But that was because other much that bad fallen from his hon, fri nd, it appeared b
namely, the state of the expenditure
nations, including the French, paid cir in time ' f peace hi-o (Mr. Gl,fstene) that he had lost sight of the true
p-iint of discuetion,
what they had incurred in time of war. This couture-
of the c ,untry, and the dispusi ion of the Government
heti for mane years been in au exceede-g'y ad-
in the riir ction of profu iin or economy. If profusi,n
vantageoua position. We had the commerce of the
preveiled, it was idl ,to speak of sinking funds, (float.)
werlialmeet at our wet:inland in censequence of our im-
Hie boo. friend bad been enabled to show that the sink-
provernents in the arts, and we were in a knee of un•
iri fond had succeeded bec:aute the country hal been
exampled prosperity. But what security Lai we that
guided by ecenetnical piiimiplee. (Hear.) He hoped
we should maintain our reletive a lvarstage over other
he had nihundersfood the Chancellor of the Exchequernations. The French exports had nearly trebled since
1847, and curs in the same period had doubled. During as to the obligations of a Government to reduce the pub-
a period of national prosperity and peace, tile duration lie debt. It was a clear duty of Parliament in time of
of which we could not estimate, we ought to reduce peace to make such arrangements front year to year for
our debt. He did not wish to embarrass the Govern- securing the application of money for the reduction of
ment in their arrangements for the year. He was wil- the debt. The real weight and pressure of the national
ling to admit that the bonds were part of the debts of debt were felt in the permanent depression of the masses
the war as much as the sinking fund, and if the right —(hear, hear)—and tee trusted the h ,use would adhere
hon. gentleman admitted the principle of the sinking to the principle of the Act of 1829. (Bear, bear.)
fund, he had no objection to its being postponed till after Sir G. C. LEWIS was not prepared to vote for the
the bonds were paid. Let him adept one of the eau- resolution oft the ground that a contract bad been en-
natives in his own budget, and agree to postpone the tered into with the public creditor, for he certainly bad
einking fund inttead of repealing it, and he (Mr. Wilson) not understood that the subscribers to the loan for the
would be satisfied, He only desired that they should Russian war were to be placed in a better position
affirm the principle of paying in time of peace the debts than other pubic creditors, but he was willing to
incurred in war. Their policy should be, by every argue the question on the issue which had been
honourable means, to avoid going to war ; when at war fairly raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
to conduct it with due economy. A committee might , namely, whettrer reliance should be placed upon a
bf
the e agr
nadional ee on nextbt session to consider the whole subject natural or an artificial sinking fund ? He did riot
think the right hon. gentleman bad given a correct de-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid finition of the artificial sinking fund, an adherence to
that the motion of the hen, member involved soveral as- which he dd net think would be wise. In dealing with
sertions wbich appeared to him to be of a very question- minor bodies.o the State, Parliament, through the in-
able character. In the first place, the assertion that the strumenta ,te' of the Exchequer Loan Bill Commissioners
expenses of a war should be raistd by way of terittiea- stieula t ', aat loans should be paid in certain payments
the annuity asserted what bad been done respecting the in cert 'ears ; but he still deprecated the practice of
late war. They hal terminable loans both in the shape thee' !neje' skeane fonds,
to/ cry interesting ditcuseion (hear, hear.)
of anrutties and of Exchequer bond-, and therefore so ARDWELE, although the resolution had led
far as that part of the resolution bore on the future cora
tea house would act wisely in alopting
(alaugb)—did not think
duct of tie Government lie did not think there was any
it. If the upon, the the houte would enter into a new
necessity for the declaration. Another part of the rese•
prospective engagement to liquidate debt. It was very
tfon were acted u
Jution declared that moderate annual instalments of sur-
plus revenue should be secured in order to pay off the easy to pear such resolute:eta but how would posterity
debts of the war. It was very difficult to know what regard them? (Hear.) Parliament could very well bind
corp watioes and other lwdies as to the mode of repay-
the hon. member meant by mod, rate annual instalment,
4 I uring the war it was supposed that one million was a ing their debt', because those bodies could net repeal
acts of Parliament; whereas the ROW° of Commons of
moderate annual instalment. Another moaerate annual
instalment took the shape of 1,250,000/. There was an- I one day could abrogate the decision cf another.
other loan and another moderate instalment Of a mil tun true principles upon which the hou e should act_r The
nae-
and a half. Then the Exchequer-bonds came, and the num vectigal parsimhniath— was retrenchment of expent
annual instalment required was two and a half milaons, diture, and a more jealous and vigilant ectnomy than
while the arrangement for the succeeding year was three I had of late years been observable. (Hear, hear.)
and a half millions ;so that it was quite impossible to i Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought the hon. member
lay down any system of annual instalments. For in- . for Devonport had done good service it; raising the pre-
staaee, it was seldom possible to reduce the war expen• 1 sect ditcuation. It was of great importance that the
fdtitthre immeditwely after the war ; or there might be a I funded
.debt of the country should not bo indefinitely
amine, or some other social disturbance ; or you might ! postponed, and he concurred with the bun. member for
have to increase your armaments in time of peace in con- , Oxford that the true method of reducing that debt was
sequence of the attitude of oth
er nations or there might : a zealous and vigilant economy,
be donaeatio insurrection. All these things might
hap ; Lord J. RUSSELL thought there were two pen in in time of Peace, and therefore, because we were Coos rai-ed by the hon, member for a:vonport, cue an
not at war, to lay down an •
tam
of
surplus
Would.
it,
hie(.ll,B,,heoaprin)ion, he an exceedingly and the second, the financial condition of the present
unwise measure,
t_,,, And what was the year. He remembered the old sinking fund, and he could
particular proposition wtioh hot
,hem ? He
sap_
it,.,... onourable member not agree with Use hon. gentleman in the conclusion at
1 ,13 (which
will
ihen;,eyou pay off your which lie had arrived. Under that system, the Chance! r
, and,
four years) for of the Exchequer, whenever he wanted a loan of 14
tittite winkingoffufin%nce,
,t, inl the mean- or 15 millions, went into the market and got 20 madame
se a committee
weoreay down a so that all the apparent gain was but temporary arid te
!et" . Well, but if they
postpone
the
a the disadvantage of the cour try. The old sinking fund
ad it not be as well to
raraitetearl. he considered a very bad system, and the act of 1829;
1 they had the report of the ce
providing that only the surplus of the revenue should
Thancellor of the Exchequer's) utL
member beawpplied to the reduction of the debt, was a good
Tangement proposed by the hon.
teue, and he was sorry to find that they were
a, that it would never work, and that tOkt„;nottnegeebajk to that sysrem. At the same time he could
.Aciple for reducing the debt was that eon-
SA of Geo.lV afiti tuifior s'itigb, although ._
mar 1 Irit the Chancellor had made any provision for
_ ./ 4 pas of that kiad, wad he thought, it was Veiliiiilo
_

-aira~'

no part with a million this year and two millions next
year income tax, when it was so much needed, and when
it might at all -events have been applied to the reduction
of the debt. The right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had stated that he had made a reduction of
800,0001. in the estimates of the late Government.,
400,0001. being on the civil estimates, buts the revenue
would not be at all benefited by that reduction. He
thought the whole question required revision, and that
it might be satisfactorily referred to a select committee,
especially as the estimates were so large and the burden
of taxation on the people so heavy.
Mr. W. EWART recommended a general revision of
taxation on articles of consumption, and expressed his
!egret that he could not give his support to the amend-
ment of the bon, member for Davenport. He thought
that we should pay off our sinking fund or not pay it
off according to our convenience. (Hear, hear.)
The amendment was negatived without a division,
and the house went into committee on the bill.
The clauses were agreed to, and the bill was reported
to the house.
SUPPLY—MILITARY ORGANISATION.
On the order for going into committee of supply,
Captain VIVIAN called the attention of the house
to the resolution relating to military organisation, which
was adopted by the house on Tuesday, the let of June,
and in reference to which the Chancellor of the Ex
chequer said it was not the intention of Government to
take any steps either in or out of the house. That reso-
lution he introduced to the house, and the house did him
the honour to agree to it. It had been said that it was
the oiject of the resolution to do away with the office of
Commander-in-Chief, and that the army would be op-
posed to that step. He (Capt Vivian) bad spoken to a
large number of members of the onidtary profession, and
most of them were in favour of some rugs change as he
had proposed, and all were unanimous in denunciation
of the present system, for they had not forgotten the
misfortunes of the Crimea, or that while the army
was starving before Sebastopol there were heaps of
food in the harbour of Ida!Alava. The medipal organ'.
sation of the army was also most defective. He should
be doing wrong were he not to say that the present
commander-in-chief had done everything that he could
to reverse the sad state of things that had so long pre•
veiled, but he believed that the position of the comman-
der-in-chief was a very unpleasant one to him as well as
to the public. (Hear.) He had no responsibility, and
his office was in all respects an anomalous one. He con-
sidered that the Minister of War should have the power
of selling commissions for the public good. The right
hon. gentleman the member for Wil-s (Mr. S. Herbert)
sold 100 commissions for 450,0001, and ehat proceeding
he had certainly heard very severely criticised. In Aus-
tria, Sardinia, and Prussia, the principle of bis resolu-
tion was adopted, and he did not see why it should not
be carried out in this country. The principle bad been
affirmed by the house, but the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer a day or two afterwards dispelled a pleasing dream
in which he had indulged by the s'atement that the Go-
vernment wou'd take no notice of it in consequence of
thesmaliness of the number of members who voted ; but
he would ask whether this was not a dangerous course,
and whether it was advisable that it should he left to a
Minister to say what was the majority on which action
should be taken ? (Hear.) If the Chancellor of the
Eurelaequer had stated that the house was taken by sur •
prise and had moved that the resolution should be read
at the table and rescinded, that would undoubtedly have
been a fair course, but the course taken was extremely
discourteous to the house on the part of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and he thought he had a right to com-
plain. He believed that this subject had taken so strong
a bold of the public mind that before long the right hon.
gentleman would be compelled on the part of his Govern-
ment to reverse the decision at which be had arrived.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. and gallant gentleman had introduced the subject
with so much fairness and so much temper that he did
not wish to lose a moment in replying to his observations,
and assuring him that be laboured under an entire
misconception as to the course which he pursued, and
the feelings that influenced him when the hon. and
gallant gentleman brought forward this question on a
former occasion. He did not reply to the speech of
the hon. and gallant gentleman on the former occasion
for this reason alone, that that speech was most com-
pletely and ably replied to by a noble lord on the other
aide of the house ; and be (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) felt a reluc'ance, which all persons felt, to
repeat the same arguments. He thought the motion of
the hon. and gallant gentleman had been carried unex-
pectedly, and notwithstanding the ingenious gloss of
the hon. and gallant gentleman, he believed it was
carried much to the surprise of the whole house. (Hear )
He had said that the resolution of the hon. and gallant
gentleman was carried by a bare majority, but he would
' admit to him that some of the most important decisions
of that house had been carried by small majoritiee
The hon. and gallant gentleman alluded to the small
majority which sustained the government of Lord Mel-
bourne, and be had no doubt the remembrarces of the
noble lord, the member for the City of London, would
supply them with many others. (Hear, hear.) The
Act of Settlement had been carried by one of the
smallest majorities on record. The decision of a
majority, however small, in matters of legislation was
absolute, but that was not the case when members of
the house proceeded by way of legislation. (Hear.) A
resolution of the house was neither irrevocable or bind-
ing, and the instances were numerous in which no
further notice had been taken of them. The house a
few years ago had expressed as opinion that the votes
for members sent to that house should be taken by bal-
lot ; the endowment to Maynooth had been denounced
by a majority of the house, and his noble friend (Lord
Naas) carried his motion with respect to the distillers of
Ireland against the government, but in neither of these
three instances did the minister act on the opinion of
the house thus significantly expressed. It might be said
that these were motions for leave to introduce bills
(hear)—but no one would pretend to:say that if they had
been simple resole i )133 that the government would have
acted on them. (Hear.) But there were more recent
instances in which the government did not carry out the
opinion of the house as expressed in a resolution. In
1855 the committee on the salaries to public officers re-
ported to the house in favour of a reduction of the
salaries to the diplomatic servants of the crown, No
notice was taken of the recommendations of that com-
mittee, and an honourable member brought forward a
resolution calling on the house to say that it was their
opinion that tee recommendations of that committee
with regard to dif 1 oa tic Fe.rvant.,shotil I be imine.liattly
acted on. It was opposed by the noble lord (Palmer-
ston), and although the noble lord was defeated by a
majority of 50 or 60, be took no notice whatever of the
resolution. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh ) The hon. and
gallant gentleman said the conduct of her Majesty's
government was unsatisfactory and unprecedented. Un-
satisfactory it might be, but unprecedented it certainly
was not, for they had the precedent of the government
of the noble lord, of which the hon, aed gallant gentle
man was an ardent supporter. (Rear.) The committee
specially reported that the mi-sione to some of the
smaller courts of Germany should he terminated, but a
vacancy having taken place in the mission to one of
those smaller courts to which the decision of the cone
niittee referred, and to which the house by their resolu-
tion gave their most decided sanction, the noble lord
just took this notice of that decision and resolution, that
he immediately filled up the vacancy. (" llea-, hear,"
and laughter.) Why did not the hero, and gallant mem-
ber notice the unsatisfactory and unprecedented c .nduct
of the noble lord on that ccea•ion. The noble lord
charged him with givi' g a cavalier answer to a question
which bad been put to him ; but the noble lord, nut by
words but by acts, gave a most cava.i. r reply
to the ice onnuendation of the committee and the resole-
tioa of the house. (dear, hear.) He did not take the
same uncharitable view of the conduct of the noble lord
on that occasion which the here and gallant gentleman
seemed to take of his conduct, for he presumed the
noble lord acted from a sense of public duty and tram a
due appreciation cf the value of this mission to a Ger-
man court. (Hear, hear) That was in 1855. What hap-
pened in 1856 ? The civil service was certainly not
inferior in importance to the military or the diplomatic
service. The principles on which that service should be
established, the means by which the greatest amount of
ability might be infused into it, the manner in which it
should be renovated—these were questions which had of
late years deeply interested the public mind, and which
nad been treated by seine of the most eloquent writers
and the most experienced public men of the age. Well,
there was a noble lord who thought that the competitive
system ought to be adopted by the government, and that
they had neglected their duty in the matter ; and that
noble lord proposed a resolution on the subject, which
was carried by a Minister though opposed by a Minister,
But what happened ? The Minister never took any
notice of the resolution--(hear, bear)—and he believed
teat Minister was either the earns distingu'shed indi-
vidual to whom he had referred (Lord Palmerston) or
the noble lord the member fur London. Many persnms
might have thought that course unsatisfactory ; no
person said it was unprecedented—(hear, hear)—where
therefore, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) fount]
a resolution relating to the military service carried
in a not very full house by a bare majority, a mej irity-
much smaller than that which carried the resolution
which related to the diplomatic service and that
which related to tho civil service, surely it was the
duty of the government to consider what had been 0-
practice under such circumstances. He might have
fenced with the question, he might have given his hon.
and gallant friend an evasive answer; but the govern
ment having considered the matter and formed a decided
opinion with regard to it, he thought it was but due
to the house that ho should clearly and frankly express
their opinion, in order that the hon. and gallant gen-
tleman might not loco his chance of testing the opinion
of the house. lie did Lot understand his hon, and
gallant friend to complain of his answer to the hon.
baronet the member for Radnorshire (Sir J. Walsh)
But there was another hon, gentleman who be thought
male an inquiry most unnecessarily after what had oc-
curred, and his reply to whom had been styled by the
noble lord the member for Tiverton a cavalier one.
Now he could not supposlthat any hon. gentleman
imagined that he intended tpit et with discourtesy towards
any hon. member. (Heir, hear.) His highest hope
aa
no
dd
h:,goodwilllya sos fu
reel I
u4t469.pie
gentlemenmb eof t hma
rit
shto uf:
and wish had ever been to secure, if possible, the respect
esel—th(haeCr)e—n-
' trended as he was..
.with the conduct of the business,
and dependent as lie( was on the gentlemanlike feelings of
then memberrom interact, whatever might be their opinions
ust f, Its well as from disposition, be
the last person to bo guilty of discourtesy towards any
hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) The only meaning he
conld affix teethe inquiry of the hon, and gallant mem-
ber .fer ilodmin (Captain Vivian) was that what be
wished to learn was whether the Government meant to
take any steps other than those which were taken in
that house ? In his reply be said that neither in that
house nor anywhere else did Government intend to take
any steps in the matter, and he was at a loss to under-
§tiud why that answor olaoulci have been considered dill.

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