The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-13 00:00:00

RED RIVER SETTLEMENT.

On the motion for adjournment,
Mr. LABOUCHERE, in answer to Viscount T3uRY,
said he had received ❑o official report of the meeting at
the Red River Settlement. He believed Mr. Ballantine,
the gentleman referred to, had bee❑ illegally arrested, but
a misapprehension existed with reference to his having
been handed over to the Rifles to conduct him out of the
settlement. Mr. BAflautine had since appealed to the
liudscn'e Bey Company in this country.

HUDSON'S BAY.
In aniwur to a question from Mr. ROEBUCK,
Mr, LABOUCHERE said that it was the intention
,1 her Majesty's Government to take po3session of the
Hudson's Bay Company', territories, but they were
Billing to renew the license to the Company under
certain conditions, giving the Government exclusive
power cf culonization, &u. The question of boundary
between Canada and Eupert's Land were to be sub-
jected to a discu3Aon of the Committee of Privy
Council by mutual consent.

CANI'ILLON'S LEGACY.
Mr. STIRLING asked the First Lord of the Treasury
if it were true, or if he would obtaiu information from
authentic sources as to the fact—that the legacy of
10,000 francs, bequeathed to the sub-officer Cantillon,
who attempted to assassinate the late Duke of Welling-
ton, by the late Napoleon Bonaparte, in a codicil of his
will, approving and justifying the attempt, had, since
Dec. 2, 1851, been paid, with interest up to the date of
payment, by the Emperor of the French. The doc-
trine of assassination was by that codicil preached
and upheld by the first Emperor, and what be wanted
to know was whether this mischievous doctrine had
been endorsed by the fortunate successor to his fortunes.
To Cantillon the wages of assassination had been duly
paid, and his name was to be foiled in a list of others
in the elf oniteur, left legacies by the Emperor and paid;
but it was stated that, whilst all the others were not
paid in full, Cantillon was paid in full with interest.
Lord PALMERSTON said he thought the hon. gen-
tleman would have shown more good taste—(cheers,
and cries of " No")—aud displayed more candour, if,
instead of assuming an answer, he had asked what were
the real facts. (Rear, hear.) The assumption that the
money had been absolutely paid by the Emperor of the
French was false, and in a matter of so much delicacy with
regard to private relation, it would have been better if he
had made inquiries and ascertained the facts before
he brought the matter forward. It was true that
Napoleon left Cantillon ten thousand francs, and
the executors, M. Bertrand and Monthellon, between
1823 and 1826, advanced certain payments to
him. When the Emperor of France issued a commission
with reference to the payment of the legacies, Cantil-
-1 in's widow applied for the balance (1,200 fr.) she con-
sidered due to her late husband. The commission,
however, refused to sanction its payment, in the belief
that the first Napoleon was labouring under an :aberra-
tion of mind when he made the bequest. (Cheers.)
Mr. STIRLING rose t 3 address the House in reply,
but he was loudly called to order on the ground that ho
could not be heard a second time. The hon. gentleman
then explained, denying the assertion of the noble lord
that he (Mr. Stirling) bad assumed the legacy was paid
by the Emperor of the French. He was rejoiced at the
answer that had been given to his question. (Hear.)
The subject then dropped.
COUNT WALEWSKI'S DESPATCH.
Lord ELCHO asked if the Government had sent a
despatch in answer to that of Count Walewski'e, and
when it would be laid ou the table of the house ?
MINISTER OF JUSTICE.
Mr. W. E WART put a question to the First Lord of
the Treasury, for explanation on the sintject of the
appointment of a Department or Minister of Justice.

CANTILLON'S LEGACY.
Mr. 130WYER ruse to enter on the question of Can-
tillon's legacy, and was called to order. He said the
hon. me►nber for Sheffield had asserted that the Em-
peror of the French had paid the legacy, and he wished
to know his authority for that statement.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he could not answer the que3•
ticn.

C111.:21...
Lord J. RUSSELL inquired of the First Lord of the
Treasury, whether he had any oljection to lay before
the house instructions given to Lord Elgin on his depar-
ture for China, and the terms which were offered and
rejected at Canton previously to the late bombardment.
Sir C. WOOD said it was unusual to communicate to
the house the instructions given to ministers, plenipo-
tentiaries, &c. No communications bad been received
from China filet could be laid on the table of the house.
In Answer to a question from Lord J. MANNERS,
Lerd PALMERSTON said the Government had
received from Lord Elgin a copy of the communication
he addressed to Yoh, who bad given an answer to it, but
there was not time to translate it to be sent home by
the last mail, but its substance had been communicated
IREEYl,'Othßisl'blill wag read a
to the Government.
On
the
tnotiConoßofPsOißr CORPORATE
second time on the understanding that it should be,
referred to a Select Committer.

THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA.
Lord PALMERSTON then rose and said—l rise,
sir, in pursuance of the notice which had been given by
her Majesty's Government, to ask leave to introduce a
bill for transferring from the East India Company to
the Crown the government of her Majesty's East Indian
dominions. In making that proposal I feel myself bound
in the first place to say that I do not do it in any spirit
of hostility to the East India Company, or as meaning
thereby to impute any blame or censure upon the admi-
nistration of India under that corporation. I believe the
East India Company has done many good things in
Indio. I believe that its administration has been at-
tended with great advantage to the population under its
rule. And it is not on the ground of any delinquency
on the part of the Company, but on the ground of the
inconvenience and injurious character of the existing
arrangements, that I propose this measure to the house.
te
It is perhaps one of the most extraordinary. Bin factshou in the
history of mankind that these British j
remote d
asshould have
part of the
acquired guch extensive dominion in

continent of India. It is indeed remarkable that those
regions in which science and art may be said to have
first dawned upon mankind should be now subject to the
rule of a people inhabiting islands which at a time when
these eastern regions enjoyed as high a civilisation and
as great prosperity as that age could otter were in estate
of utter barbarism ; but still more remarkable is it that
these extensive dominions should have been gained not
by the power of a nation as a nation, but by an associa-
lion of individuals, by a mercantile oommunity, sups
ported, indeed, to a certain degree by the power of their
country, but mainly indebted for success to their own
energy and enterprise. These two circumstances are
undoubtedly singular, but it is quite as remarkable, quite
as singular, that a nation like this, in which the science
of government is perhaps better understood than in any
other, in which the principle of popular representation
has so long been established, should have deliberately
consigned to the care of a small body of commercial
men the management of such extensive terri-
tories and Ruch numerous populations. One could easily
imagine that a wilderness in the northern part of Ame-
rica, where nothing lives except fur-bearing animals and
a few wild Indians but little removed from the lower
creation, might be confined to a company whose chief
functions should be to strip the running animal of their
fur, and to keep the natives sober ; but that a great
country like this should deliberately consign to the man-
agement of a mere commercial company, of a set of irre-
sponsible individuals, a great territory, occupied by dif-
ferent races, professing diverse religiose, and in which
all the questions of peace and war and of international
relations with independent princes must arise was, he
believed, a circumstance unexampled in the historyef
m nkind. But this country never designedly did any
such thing. The existing state of things grew upgradnally
from a very small beginning. The original settlers began
with a factory, the factory grew into a fort, the fort
extended to a district, the district to s, province, and then
came collisions with less civilised neighbours, injuries
resented, attacks to be repelled, and conflicts which
always ended in a victory and extension of territory. So,
gradually, from one transaction to another, grew up
that state of things in which the East India Company
found itself invested with large commercial interestsand
with most important political functions. This continued
up to the year 1784, when there was an infusion of re-
sponsible administration into the affairs of the Company
by the establishment of the Board of Control, under a
slight interference from which the Company continued to
discharge its political functions, and at the same time to
exercise all its commercialrights. One would have ima-
gined that in a country like this that first step would
have been followed up, that before anything else was
done the reflective British nation would have pursued the
course inaugurated in 1784, and that as the effect of the
measure then adopted was to limit in a certain degree
the political functions of the Company, the next step
would have been to take them away altogether, and
to leave the Company in its original position as a
trading association. (Hear.) However, it happens
that in this country commercial often excite deeper
interest than political affairs, and the next step was, not
to meddle further with the political functions of the
Company, but to take away all the commercial privileges
which originaly o instituted the foundation of its exist-
seer. Accordingly, in the year 1833 the Company alto-
gether ceased to be a commercial association, and be-
came, one may say, but a phantom of its original body.
It lost the commercial character for which it was origi-
nally founded, and continued to be merely a political
agent, by means of which the administration of India
was carried on. Now, sir, I vet tore to think that the
arrangement so made was a most inconvenient and most
cumbrous one. The principle of our political system is
that all administrative functions should be accompanied
by Ministerial responsibility—responsibility to Parlia-
ment, responsibility to public; opinion, responsibility to
the Crown ; but in this case the chief function of the
Government of India is committed to a body not re-
sponsible to Parliament, not appointed by the Crown,
but elected by persons who have no connection with
India, except the situ' le possession of India stock. I
think that that of itself is a /met objectionable arrange.
ment. In this country we are slow to make changes.
The indisposition to make changes is wise and useful.
(Opposition cheers.) As a general principle it is wise,
and nations do themselves great mischief by rapid and
ill-considered alterations of their institutions. (Renewed
cheering from the Opposition benches.) But equally
unwise and equally injurious is it to cling to existing
arrangements simply because they exist, and not to
admit changes which can be made with advantage to the
nation. (Ministerial cheers.) What can be more cunt-
brous than the existing system of Indian administration
which is called by the name of "double Government r'
In the debates of 1653 the right hon, gentleman the
member for Bucks asked who was the government of
India, and to whom he was to look as the authority re-
spansible for the administration of that vast empire. Why,
sir, there is no responsibility. The Directors possess a
power paramount, as the right hon. gentleman said, to
everything else, the power of recalling the Gover-
nor-General, ley which any great system of policy may
be at once interrupted. The functions of Government
and the reeponsibility have been divided between the
directors, the Board of Control, and the Governor-Gene-
rat in India ; the Beard of Centrol representing the Go-
vernment of the day, responsible to this house, respon-
sible to public opinion, appointed by the Crown, and
' exercising functions delegated by it ; the Court of Di-
rectors, elected by the gentlemen and ladies who happen
to be holders of India stock, many of whom are totally
ignorant of everything relating to Indian interests, and
perhaps knowing nothing about Calcutta, Bombay, or
Madras, except what they learn from the candidates for
the directorship as to the presidency to which the cadet-
ship is to b.l)ng which is promised in return for their
votes. (No, no, and bear, hear.) The directors are un-
doubtedly men of great experience and knowledge of
India, but they are elected by a body of persons who
have no peculiar faculty for choosing parsons to govern
a great empire in the East. Then comes the Governor-
General, invested with great, separate, and independent
powers, and among those three authorities it is obvious
that despatch and unity of purpose can hardly by passi-
bility exist. I won't trouble the house by going into a
detailed explanation of the method in which business is
done, because it is very well known to those hon. mem-
bers who have given their attention to Indian affairs
that before a despatch upon the most important matter
can go out to India it oscillates between Cannon-row
and the Indiaehouse ; that it is proposed by one party,
altered by the other, altered again by the first, and sent
back to the other; and that the adventures of a de-
spatch between these two extreme paints of the metros
pelis are often as curious as those "Adventures of a
Guinea" of which we have all read. (Laughter.) It is
obvious that this system of check and counter-check must
be attended with great inconvenience to the public service
and be productive of great delay. Take, for example, a
body of 20 gentlemen generally agreeing in their views,
and make 10 of them sit at the east end of the town and
the other 10 in Westminster. Propose to them any
question of average difficulty and importance, and the
probability is that the two parties will come to different
conclusions, not being able to exchange opinions and
argument, and to arrive at a common result. So it is
with the Board of Gantrol and the Court of Directors.
The result in cases of material difference must necessarily
be a middle term, satisfying the opinions of neither,
carrying into effect the prinoiple of neither, unsatisfactory
therefore to both, and probably less advantageous to the
public service than the opinion of either would have been
had it been entirely adopted. (Hear, hear.) Again I
say that this system cf check and counter-chock may be.
carried too far. There is no doubt that certain check',
are requisite in every political machine, but you may
multiply your checks and counter-checks to such an
extent that the functions of the machine, which are
intended only to be controlled, are paralyzed for every
useful purpose. (Hear.) Then what, let me ask, is
the position in which her Majesty's Government stand
in this house ? When Indian questions are discussed
it is the constant habit of those who take part in the
debate, critic:sing and impugning what has been done,
to hold her Majesty's Government responsible for
everything that occurs, although they cannot be fairly
answerable for things over which they have not a perfect
control, and which they cannot entirely diteet. It
frequently happens, indeed, that the Government of the
day are made responsible for acts which were done
without their consent, and probably in some cases much
to their dissatisfaction. (Hear.) Take, for instance,
a matter, which has occupied the attention of the
house, and whiab has formed part of the inquiries of a
committee—the hiring of vessels to carry troops to
India. I will venture to say that a majority et the
gentlemen here imagine that the Government is the
authority by which those arrangements are made. Not
in the least. The Company is chargeable with the ex-
pense of transporting trsotiloaepnsudtoonvoletrontdhmiaee;nurittuvismertuhnsmetCennoatmtu;praaannidlyyt
twhtiucghhtatkheesouppintihoenshoir
have weight w
ith the Company, there
arrangements
are not made by the officers of the Government,
but by the officers of the East India Company itself. I
say, then, it is most desirable that this complicated
machine should be simplified and reduced in fact and
form to that which it is imagined to be, but which it prac-
tically is not. I may be asked why we take this moment
for proposing a change of system. (Cheers from the
Opposition ) The inconvenience of different systems of
administration are forced upon the attention of the Go-
vernment and the country from time to time by peculiar
emergencies. Thus the arrangements of the military
departments had existed in time of peace, but, though
many felt that the division of the Ordnance into sepa-
rate departments and the distinction between the War.
office and the office of the Secretary of State for War
were inconvenient, it was not until the war in the Crimea
drew the attention of the Government to the disadvan-
tages of that complicated system that we altered the
arrangements, and it was during the Crimean war that
the consolidation was effected by means of which we
were enabled to carry on the struggle with Russia with
far greater promptitude, vigour, and success than we
should have been able to do if the old system had been
continued. (Cheers.) I say, then, that as far as regards
the executive functions of the Indian Government at
home it is of the greatest importance to vest compleate
authority where the public have a right to thhietatsb
in
complete responsibility should rest, and that
this country there can be but one governingt
re-
sponsible to the Crown, to Parliament, 'advisers of the
opinion, consisting of the constitutionalnaccordance with the
Crown for the time being, so it is in
as it would
ndwtobopduyblic
principles and practice of constitution,obuerst interests of the nation,
be in accordance with the
vast
and important interests,
that India,
with nil
itdierthe direct authority of the
should be Place-
goveternrtFloitn the name of tshitetiCngrowinnpbayrtihia.e
and s 'Li! to Farliament and the public for
epublic conduct, instead of being,
Crowr, to be
mainly administered by a set of gcntlemela
a 3 now,
everynie nt, and
prt re -p
p tohnesiir
Who, however respectable, however COn3peteitt

their function!, are yet a totally irresponsible body,
whose views and acts are seldom known to the public, and
whether known or unknown, whether approved or dis-
approved, unless one of the directori happens to have a
seat in this house, ere out of the range of Parliamentary
discussion. A gain, as regards our interest in India, I may
state at once that the bill which we are proposing to the
house is confined entirely and solely to a change in the
administrative organisation at home, and that we do not
intend to make any alteration in the existing arrange-
ments is India. In fact, if Parliament were to adopt the
measure which we are about to propose, the only differ-
ence as far as India is concerned would be that the next
despatch would go out signed by the President and the
Council for Indian Affairs, instead of by the Court of
Directors, and that the reply would be addressed to the
President of the new Board, instead of to the chairman
of the body sitting in Leadenhall-street. There can be no
doubt that in India the name of tie Sovereign of a great
empire like this mast be far more respected, far more
calcaleted to produce moral and political impressions,
than .the name of a company of merchants, however de-
serving. We have to deal with princes, some ruling in-
dependently, and some in a state of modified dependence
upon us, and with feudal chiefs proud of their position,
cherishing traditionary recollections of a wide empire,
sad great sovereigns to whom their ancestors owed
• allegiance. How can we expect such men tofeel any great
.respect for a mere company of merchants? The respect
-they would feel, the allegiance they would give, would be
increased tenfold if the one were given and the other
tendered to the Sovereign of a great and mighty empire.
I believe that what gives force to the Company in India
is not the fame or authority of the C ,mpany itself, but
the knowledge which the people have that behind the
Companyand strengthening it is the power of the British
empire, and that, although the nominal ruler may be an
officer of a commercial nation, the real ruler is the Sove-
reign of this great country. I am therefore satisfied that
the transfer of the Government of India to the Crown
would, as far as its effect upon the people is concerned,
be equivalent to a large reinforcement of troops; that the
impression which would be produced would be most ad.
vantageous, and would consolidate and strengthen the
moral and political influence of England in those regions
of the world. What, then, is the arrangement which we
are about to propose ? We wish to alter things as little
as we can consistently with the great object we have in
view. That object is to make the responsible advisers of
the Crown answerable for the government of India as
well as for that of all our other possessions beyond seas.
We wish that the affairs of India should be administered
by men responsible to Parliament for the manner in
which that errantry is governed. We propose, therefore,
that the functions of the Court of Directors, and of the
Court of Peoprietore, should wane; &bat there shoul.i be
substituted for those bodies a President, assisted by a
Council, for the affairs of India ; that that President
should be a member of the Government, and should be
the organ of the Cabinet with reference to all matters re-
lating to India ; but, as men who have distinguished
themselves in public life, and who are likely from time
to time, as changes of Administration occur, to be placed
at the head of that department, could not be supposed to
possess that detailed local knowledge which is essential
to the wise government of the country, we propose that
the President should be assisted by a council composed
of persons tamed by the Crown, with the condition that
they should either have been directors of the East India
Company, have served a certain period in India in a civil
or military capacity, or have resided there a certain num-
ber of years unconnected with the local administration.
We propose that that council should consist of 8 mem-
bers, that they should be appointed for 8 years, and that
two should retire by rotation every 2d year, in order
that successive administrations may be able to renew the
council from time to time by the introduction of persons
returning from India with fresh knowledge and ideas.
We think that while, on the one hand, the permanency
of a councillor for eight years will make him an in-
dependent adviser of the President, he will not, on the
other, by being appointed for ltfe, block up the way to
the accessionfof other persons who may be more capable
of serving the country. (Hear.) Of course, as the
proposal is to transfer to the Government of the day full
responsibility for the management of Indian affairs, and
as the President will be the organ of the Cabinet upon
Indian matters, just as the Secretary of State for the
Colonies and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
are the organs of the Government in regard to the depart-
ments under their respective care, the decision of the
President must be final in all matters which may be
treated of in the Council. But if we propose that if the
councillors differ in opinion from the President they
shall have the right to record that difference, together
with their reasons, upon the minutes of the Council, so
as to be able to justify themselves afterwards.for having
differed from the President. Tee full power of
the President, however, will not extend to matters
_involving increased expense to the Indian revenue,
and for purposes of that sort it will be necessary
'that he shall have the concurrenee of four councillors to
any proposals which he may have to submit. In the
temporary absence of the President a Secretary of State
will be able to act for him, and four members of the
Council will be a quorum for the transaction of busi-
ness. We propose that the Council shall have the power
of distributing among themselves the business which
comes to them, so as to allot different departments of
basin ses to different members of C emcd, who will make
reports to the Council itself. We propose that the Pre-
sident shall be placed on the f )sting of a Secretary of
State, and that the councillors shall have a salary of
1,0001. a-year each. We propose that all powers vested
in the Court of Directors shall be transferred to this
Council, and, therefore, that all appointments which
have hitherto been made by the Court of Directors
or others, subject to the approbation of the Crown,
shall be made by tha.Crown direct, bat that all appoiat-
manta in India which have hitherto been made. by local
authorities shalthe continued, so that no part of the local
Indian patronage will be transferred to the Govern-
ment of this country. (Cheer; ) We propose that the
President shall be able to appoint one secretary, who
_shall be capable of sitting in this house, It will be con-
venient that a Cabinet Minister holding that situation
shall have the assistance of a secretary c ,nversant with
the business which may come wider discussion : but we
do not, propose that the ci•uccillors shah be capable of
sitting in Parliament. (Hear, hear.) We think there
would be great inconvenience in such an arrangement ;
that they would become party men I that they would
necessarily associate with one aide or the other in this
house, and that, with cliaeges of administration, the
relations between the President and the councillors
might then bsoome exceedingly embarrassing. (gear.)
(hie point which has always attracted the attention of
those who have considered these matter', and which has
•
created even a very considerable constitutional difficulty,
lase been the question of patronage. Many men hive
Said that they think the Government of India a
cumbrous and antiquated machine which ought to be
done away with. That was the opinion in 1833 of a
great number of those who took part in the discussion,
but it was always said, " flow can ese manage with the
patronage I We do not wish to increase the p ttrol.age
of the Government, and we fear that this tran,l,r would
make that augmentation." But as I have said with
regard to local appoietmeate, all those appointments
which have hitherto been made either by the Govern*:
General or by other authorities in India wi 1 cont.ne

exactly as before to be made by tam, the members o

the local csuncil being named by the Governor-General
instead of being named hence. An arrangement was m ide
in 1353 by which all appointments to wri!.ersbipi were
given by open competition. That arranoment we shall
of course maintain. (Cheers.) Writersbips, therefore, are
..beyond the range sf patronage. The appointments to
cadetships have hitherto been divided between members
of the Court of Directors and the President of the Board
of Control. What we propose is to leave the appoint-
ments to those cadetships as they have been
hitherto. The reduction from the number of directors
to the number of councillors will give somewhat more
patronage to the councillors, but the addition to the
patronage of the President will be hardly perceptible.
It must be remembered that hitherto we have had an
enormous native army, and it does not seem probab'e
that we shall keep up that force to the same ami,unt.
(Flear.) As regards the civil appointments, they wid
remain matters of public competition, and as regards
appointments to cadetships, they will be made as I have
stated, with, probably, the additional conditions that
the cadets shall be appointed to probation in some
military college, their final appointments to regiments
depending on the efficiency of their studied. There is
one condition which we propose to attach to this distri-
bution of cadetships—viz., that a certain proportion of
first appointments, which we cannot fix in a Bill, but
which must be left to the discretion of the Councii from
time to time, shall be reserved for the eons of civil and
military ofilsera who have serve 1 in India. (Cheers.)
According to that arrangement it will be seen
that no addition of patronage will devolve upon the exe-
cutive Governent)seorst Goff
thean account to excite constitutional
jealouy on the
The"army in India Commons. (Hear.)
.1 House of
will I consist, as heretofore, of Queen's
troops, forming a
and local corps enlistedp.of in
regular army of this country,
troops 'no eisangs
will be made.
With regard to Queen's
others, they will be tram; made. With regard to the
subject
tred to the crown for the ser-
vice of the company,
which they
same conditions of
service as those under were enlisted, and if
dislike that change I think in common justice they will
be entitled to their discharge,
with re-
gard to local military services, thaa:ntdttrehotpartoostoehodei shall be
paid out of the revenues of India,
shall to Asia so long as tney arc paid ornBteortvlee6
Indian-revenue. At present, I believe, the limit of service
for the company's troops is as far as any place eastward
e
of the Cape. It is proposed that if at any time a part of
the local army shall be employed out of Asia, the troops
shallahen not be paid out of the Indian revenue. It
inustlie for this house to determine whether a force
so employed shall be paid out of the revenue of this
. conatry and whether t ieir employment is consonant
with what the interests of India may be. It is proposed
that, whereas wG transfer to this ProOdent of the Coun-
cil the functions'of the Court of Directors and Board of
Control, both of which will be abolished, the functions
and powers of the secret esromittee, which govern suet-
tors, involving great discretion and temporary secrecy,
should be vested in the President, as representative of the
responsible Ministers of the Crowr. But wo propose
that in any case in which orders *limit he sent to India
involving the immediate commencement of hostilities
cornMUDiCation thereof shall be made to Pm:Fame-A
within one month, if Parliament he then sitting, or
ilterVal will prevent .n,jaiy to rbt• pubic mica
paCA
• b'f nit iveon of orders so issued, whilegive
iy of calling upon the Government
ment the opportuni.
for explanation of the causes such orders were
is for which t
t,,:n
h,
uhl
U3d: OF course it Will be neoass try th
le en effective audit of the revenues ofedia and their
application.revocue
the
It is required by this hi! that
g
shall be applied solely fur purposes of overnment in
India. It is proposed that an auditor shall be appointed
?
with the power of appointing assistant auditor, for the j
oants of receipts
purpose of examining minutely the ace

and expenditure, and that the accounts when audited I
shall be laid before Per ilment. Of course. power will
be given to the President of the Council to Josue to the
Company such sums as may
be necessary to defray the
expenditure required for paying their dividends and
keeping their books, until the Company determine
whether they will or will not avail themselves of the
option given them of being paid in a certain time. for
their stock. This, then, is, generally speaking, the
outline of our measure. Of course, the details would
come under the consideration of the house if it *should,
as I trust it will, give us leave to bring in the bill ; and
when the bill shall be in the hands of hon. members,
they will then have to consider the details, such as I hare
described, as well as some other points which I have not
thought it necessary to advert to. But the question now
to be considered is simply the great and large question,
whether or not we shall transfer to the executive and
responsible Ministers of the Crown the direction of the
affairs of our Indian territories, or whether that direction
shall be left!as heretofore under the cumbrous and compli-
cated system described as the double government, which,
in my opinion, is full of embarrassment and calculated
to accomplish the purpose good government ought to
have in view—(hear)—and which, though continued
heretofore, because no great events called on Parliament
to reconsider it, ought, I think, to be abolished without
further delay. (Hear, hear.) Now, Ido not think I shall
be met by objections to this principle itself, because,
when I recollect what has passed on former occasions
this house, and when I know what is the general
opinion of the country on the point, I cannot persuade
myself that we shall meet with any strong opposition t
the general prineiple on which the measure is founded.
(Hear.) When I look back to see what passed in 1853,
I find some of the leading members of this house ex-
pressed strong opinions that the time must come at no
distant period when an entire change must be made, and
that the introduction of Government members into the
East India direction was only the first step to a further
and ulterior measure ; and the only doubt was whether
a full measure ought not at that time to be
adopted. But whatever may have been the opinion of
Parliament at that time, I am much mistaken as to the
signs and indications of opinion in the country now if
the nation at large had not made up its mind that this
double government ought to be made to cease. (Hear.)
I am convinced that this is the opinion of the country,
and great disappointment would be felt if this house
should negative the bill upon an objection to the principle
itself on which it is founded. (Rear, hear.) We ehal;
no doubt be met by a motion for delay, and be told that
this is not the time for discussing the measure—(hear)
—that India is unsettled ; that we should wait until a
calmer period, and until the difficulties in India are
over. Why, that plea hr is ieeariabiy the plea set
up by those who are anxious to oppose that which they
cannot resist directly, bat which they wish to get rid of
by the intermediate polity of proposing delay. (Hear.)
They say, "Do not alter the machine of government at
a time when India is unsettled and in difficulty, when
you have not fully got rid of the mutiny, and when you
have not entirely re-established authority in every part
of the country." What does tliat argument amount to
when it is analysed ? It is said, "Do not change your
Government now, because there is in India that to be
done which is difficult to be accomplished, and which
therefore it might require great power to accomplish."
Will, then, any man pretend that a single Government
at home will not be a much more effectual instrument
for the purpose than a double Government? (Hear.)
Will any man pretend to tell me with a view to rapidity
of discussion, unity of purpose, and responsibility to the
public, a GOvernment administered by the responsible
advisers of the Crown would not be a far more efficient
instrument for everyeLiag to be done here than the exist-
ing conflict of checks and counter-checks, the system of
previous communications mad subsequent communica-
tions, of objections 'co a d ssetch and its trawler by cabs
from one part of the town to another, by which delay
was created, so that a despatch which ought to go out
to-morrow might not go out for a month, or be ready
until it was too late to send it out. Why, no reasonable
man will venture to get up and tell the house that the
present machine can be so effective and so powerful a
machine for administration at home as the machine we
propose to substitute for it. (Hear; hear.) Will any man
acquainted with India tell me that the name of the Com-
pany (which is now pretty well seen through by the
natives in India) can have half or the tenth part of the
powerful influence of the name of the Crown. (dear.)
I declare it is noasonse to say that the Indian chiefs
would not feel ten times more respect for the Rajah of
England than for the name of an unknown company.
(Coesre and laughter.) Well, then, I say, if we look to
India, the machine wnich we propose to substitute is a
mach m re powerfulmachine, and iofinilely more influen-
tial than the existing one. Then we are told that there
is a state of difficulty in India, and what is the proposal
of those who want delay ? Toey say that in order to
overcome this difficulty and to restore tranquillity in
India, which we are told is a matter of great difficulty
and which will require groat strength and power to
effect, we should prolong the existence of the present
weak system, instead of substituting for it a stronger,
more powerful, and more effectual system. (Hear.)
In that argument there is no sense, I submit. (a:3ar.)
However, we shall be toff by sense that the Government
of India is a great mystery—that the unholy ought not
to set foot in that temple—that the House of Commons
should be kept aloof from any interference in Indian
affairs—that if we tranfer the Government to the Minis-
ters responsible to Parliament, we shall have Indian
affairs made the subject of party pa,sions iu this house,
and that great mischief would arise therefrom. I think
that argument is founded on an overlooking of the
fundamental principles of the British constitution. (Hear )
It is a reflection on Parliamentary government. The
management of India is mainly dependent ou those
general principles of stet, smanship, which men in public
life in this °wintry acquire hero, and make the guidance
of their future coerce. Ido not think so ill of this
house as to int/gine that it would be disposed fur
factious purposes or for the momentary triumph of
party to trifle with the great interests of the country as
connected with the administration of our Indian affairs.
(Hear.) lam accustomed to think that the Parliament
of this country does ceinbine in itself as mesh adminis-
trative ability and as much statesmanlike knowledge
and science as are possessed ley ail number of men in
any other country n hatever, and I own, with ail repast
for the Court of Directory, that I cannot bring myeelf to
think that the Parliament of England is less capable or
wisely administering great affeit s of Slate in connecion
will India than the Court of Directors in LeadeLhall
street. lam not afraid to trust Parliament with an in-
sight into Indian affairs. (Rear, hear.) I believe, on
the contrary, that if things have not gone on so fast in
India as they might have done—if the progress of im-
provement has been somewhat slower than might have
been expected, that eff.xt has arisen from the circum.
stances that the public at large were wholly ignorant of
Indian affairs, and had turned away from them, being
daunted by the complications they imagined them to be
involved in ; and because Parliament ha; never had face
Ito face, in this arid the other house, men personally and
eritraly responsible for the administration of Indian
affairs. No doubt a good deal has been done in the
way of improvement of late yearn, but that which has
been done I may venture to say, has been entirely the
ri.sulk, of debates in this and the other house of Parlia-
ment. (Hear.) And, so far from any discus ion on
India hav,ng worked evil in India, I believe that the
greater part of thoseiasprovements which the East India
Directors boast cf in that publication which has lately
issued from Leadenteall-street has been the result of pres-
sure on the Indian administration by debates in Parlia-
ment and discussions in the public press. 'Therefore, so
far from being alarmed at the col 9 quinces which may
arise from bringing Indian affairs under the cognizance
of Parliament, I believe that a great benefit to
and through India to the British nation, will resalt
therefrom. Therefore, I say, I see no reason, either on
the score of principle or on the score of the augueeeta-
mica of patronage, or on the score of time or con-titu-
tional danger, why we should not at once pass the
measure which it will be my duty to present to the
House. 1 trust that Parliament will feel that great

power is not given to nations without corresp n:ding
duties to be performed. We have, by an almost
miraculous train of events, been ii.trusted wi h the
destinies of 150 or 160 millions of men—with the
government, directly or indirectly, of a vast empire
larger in extent than all the face of Europe, putting the
Russian empire out of the question. That is a task which
involved great responsibility. (Hear.) Do not imagine
that it is the intention of Providence that England
should possess that vast empire, and that we should
have in our hand the destinies of that vast multitude
of men, simply that we may send out to India
the sous of gentlemen or of the middiing classed to make
a decent fortune to live on. That power has been in-
trusted to us for other purposes ; and I think it is the
duty of this nation to use it in such a manner as to pro-
mote, as far as they can, the instruction, the enlighten-
ment, and the civilization of those great populations
wLich are now subject to our rule. (Cheers.) We have
lately wi nessad in India scenes of barlarAy which
would make any man shudder, but are we wholly irre-

, .
sponsible
-Lief power in India, we had
for which we have ex3r.,
for those scenes ? If, durieg.the two centu.ries,
think their nature would not,
you
t ^ions crimes
used that power to enlighten and civiliseit
iocateh eropeettoipulree, do
which they have committed least, have been change.d,s
they were to those of the
adnwdotuhladt thenn; atrocious
re-
pugnant to their feelings as been as
ght to remember that we
olundia, people of this country?
d if we commit its per-
that duty will be best discharge
have a great duty to ful:lVien
will be accountable
and I am sure that
torrnance to the hands of men who
to Parliament far their conduct, and who will feel them-
selves bound to acquaint the public of this county, step
by step, with the arrangements which they may mane. I
am confident, if Parliament should adopt the measure
i
we are about to propose, that while on the one hand i
will add to the strength of our position in India, whi., cit will increase the power of Void country, and render our
influence more firm and secure, it will on the oLer hand
enable us more efficiently to perform those duti .9 which,in my view, it was intended that we should discharge
when the great Indian empire was transferred tO Our
coovLtr t•iltnetil ol• beg for leave to bring in a 8.11 for the better
gt of India. (Lud cheers.)Mr. T. BARING, in moving an amendment, that it was
not expedient at present to legislate fur the government of
India, said that everyone in that house and the counir-,
mast concur in the noble lord's r:mark, that the grea.,
object they all had in •i 977 was the welfare of India an
our fel:uw-subjects iu ti :.t eor.u...iy - (~ear, Lear) - aud it
was in consequence of his believing that the bill ce
the noble lord at the present moment would not con-
duco to that object that be proposed the kbovi
amendment. It was unnecessary for him to follow thi
noble lord through his description of the tile of tla
East India Company, nor into a discussion of the compa-
rative merits of the elective body of proprietors nor cadet-

ships, other than to acid that if the noble lord had eare7l:ll;
read the evidence taken in 1853, he would.net have chargeu

all canvassing directors with obtaining votes by promises
of cadetships. The appeal he made to the house was this
—to say, aye or no; was this the right moment to make
the proposed change. The noble lord had said he proposed
to make no change in hale, but would any one assert
that to change the system in this country would not also
have the effect of changi' g the government in India. The
constitution of one reacted on the other, and when they
deprived a body of men (two-thirds of whom were elected
by an independent constituency) of their administrative
functions, and placed them in the hands of eight Crown
nominees, the effect must be to create a great change in the
government in India. The noble lord commenced by com-
plimenting the East India Company, and afterwards said
their government was a cumbrous machine, which he was
not aware till an emergency arose needed so great a change.
The noble lord had, however, failed to state its defects,
and, if they existed Government was to blame for them.
He denied that the proposed change would be so beneficial
is the noble lord considered, and he asked the noble lord
to show in any of Sir Colin Campbell's despatches that he
had found the Queen's name of such power and influence
as the noble lord considered it would be in India. He
doubted if the noble lord would get the support of Lord
Canning, or any man who bad been in India to this mea-
sure. The hon. gentleman remarked that the noble lord
had wisely abstained from noticing the Calcutta memorial ;
and with regard to the system of checks and counter-checks
complained of by the noble lord, he said he considered they
were highly beneficial for the government of India. The
proposed change was looked to with great apprehension
by the people of India under existing circumstances.
Would the Hindoos not be in some manner influenced by
this change of Government? Let this change take place,
and the Hindoos would say that the change of Government
would involve a change in the privileges which the native
population had hitherto enjoyed. We were now in the
midst of a gigantic mutiny, but a greater task than that of
suppression lay before the Government, and that was the
task of conciliation. (Hear.) Was the Parliament of
England in a position to say what was required for the
tranquillisation of India ? Not a crumb of comfort in this
respect had fallen from the noble lord, who seemed to rely
solely on the magical influence of the Queen's name. He
denial that that house was qualified in point of informa-
tion to decide what the precise measure for Indiaought to
be. He hardly mat a man who did not ask him where he
could learn something about Indian affairs—(hear)—and
with the flesh complicaions which had arisen out of the
mutiny it was most unwise to precipitate a measure in-
volving radical change. The noble lord did not frame the
measure on any alleged shortcomings on the part of the
present Government. The noble lord lead no special
eround for the measures nor did he say that the Indian
Gterrernment had disappointed reasonable expectations. All
the noble lord asserted was that the machinery was " cum-
brous." (Hear.) The noble lord sneeringly stated that he
did not expect opposition from that (the opposition) side
of the house. The noble lord might better have uttered
that taunt to his supporters, who had made themselves re-
spoasiLlo fur the measure of 1353. (User.) t's hat had
occurred since that time to justify the impugning of that
measure ? (Hear.) If, when that measure was passed, he
had known that the then formed Government was to be
changed in four years, he should have said, " Pass such a
measure in 1853, when there is tranquillity in India." A
measure which might have been prudent to pass then it
may be madness to propose at this moment. A committee
had sat on the affairs of India, but not one of its members,
he believed, had asserted that the existing machinery of
the Indian Government was a cumbrous machinery.
(Hear.) The President of the Board of Control would no
doubt state in what reaped his benevolent suggestions had
been followed or rejected. (Hear.) The present First Lord
of the Admiralty was a member of that committee, as was
the present Secretary for the Colonies. Tho First Lord
would no doubt state in his place to what extant he thought
the act of 1833 and that of 1853 had been successful or not.
The Secretary of the Colonies had, in a recent speech, said
that our colonies were well governed, because they had
been left to themselves. Was the right hoe. gentleman pre-
pared to add the same language with respect to the go-
vernment of India? The proposal of the Government was
in fact a revival of a system which had proved unfortunate
in our colonies, where patronage and domination had led
to the most disastrous results. (Hear, hear). The noble
lord said that party and political feeling was not rife in
India, but he (elr. Baring) much feared that the state of
things, in which the late Lord Hardinge said that he
knew a man's politics in India only by accident, had
passed away. (Hear, hear.) He repeated his opinion that
the change in the name of the Government would be con-
sidered to be without meaning in India. There was a
growing feeling out of doors in this country that there
was to be an attempt to Christianise the native population.
For his own part, he desired that the conversion should
be the result of conviction, and not of any forced measures
on the port of the Government. (Hear, hear.) Groat
progress had been made in India both with respect to in-
ternal improvement and in the spread of education, and it
was clear that the "delay" of which the noble lord spoke
had not checked these steps. A member of the late Go-
vernment had stated is the House of Lords that the
Government of India was an anomaly. But the circum-
stances attending our possession of this great dependency
were altogether exceptional, and we had no precedent to
guide us. (Hear. hear). The noble lord said that public
opinion was the safeguard required; but he (Jlr. Baring)
asked whether the public opinion of England was at this
moment ripe for taking the initiative. (Hear, hear)? He
feared that at this moment the public feeling of England
was heated with regard to India. (Hear, hear). The pro-
posed council would no doubt be composed of intelligent
men, but it was absurd to say that they would be inde-
pendent. (Heir, hear). He did not know who the first
eight names were to be; but in Mr. Fox's bill there was at
least the semblance of deference to some other authority
than the Government. (Hear). Before they "put down a
Goverment it was their duty to put down a inntlnta and
ho implored the bowie to pause before it asked for the de-
struction of one Government in the absence of proper in-
formation. His hoe. relative, the member for Portsmouth,
had recently said that the East India Company would
shortly be matter of history. Fortunately, the pages of
that history wero still open, and he trusted that when they
were real it would be admitted that althongh faults might,
be detected, there had been unexampled success armor.,
plishe I by the split of commercial enterprise and by the
indomitable courage of the European soldier. (Hear.) In
reading that page of history, they would find that great
statesmen bas wisely governed that country. He hoped,
moreover, that it would not be found in that history that
3ritish Government an la British House of Commons had,
in the midst of a gigantic mutiny, converted the dominion
of the Qaeon into the shuttlecock of party. (Cheers.) The
hon. member concluded by moving an amendment, that it
is not at present expedient to legislate for the government
of India

The SPEAKER having put the question,
Sir E. PERRY suid, that having laid on the table a
motion involving the same objects as the present bill, he
trusted he might offer some observations in reply to
the hon. member for Huntingdon. Although he was desir-
ous for the introduction of such a measure as this in 1853,
he nevertheless thought that the time chosen by the noble
lord for his proposed law was very well chosen. He said
that the company's Government had ceased to receive that
respeet from the inha.bitantsof India which it had formerly
po cussed, and that a desire for a change was almost nni-
' versal there. That government was condemned by the
public as an effete, useless, and cumbrous machine. Pro-
bably no government had acted with purer intentions ; bat
his complaint was, that their practice was not in accord-
ance with their intentions. Tho system of education in
India owed its origin to Parliamentary influence. He re-
collected when ho had the honour of being elected presi-
dent of the board of education in the presidency of Bom-
bay, ho received one of the abler, an I most luminous state
I papers drawn up by Mr. James Mill on the subject. That
state paper was lookod upon as the magna charta of Indian
education. It was not the business of those who supported
the present bill to bring any charges against the Court of
Directors. His objections to the present system applied
both to the Court of Directors and the Board of Control.
Ha had no doubt that there were knits on both sides; and
that in their joint action they male an exceedingly bad
system. The hon. member for Huntingdon had pronounced
a great eulogium upon the government of the East India
Company. But previous to 17,14 alliparilet--Mr, Pitt, and
Mr. Fox—were agreed that it was venal, corrupt, oppres-
sive, felse, and treacherous in its relations to the native
states, It is clear from the language of Mr. Pitt when he
introduced the bill which was the fouudetien of the present
system, that ho contemplated that eventual transfer of the
govornment'of India to the Ministers of the Crown which
was now, $3 years afterwards to be carried out by the bill
of the noble lord. Mr. Pitt's act did not give the Crown all
the power over the government of India that was desirable,
and various acts had been passed to give them that power.
The course of legislation had left the Court of Directors a
mere caput ntortuain, and he should, therefore, strenuously
support a measure which, while it would not give
the Government more power or patronage than they now
possessed, would impose upon them a complete responsi-
bility to parliamentary control. Up to the present time
we had not known who was re:Tensible for the Afighan war.
Such a state of things was most unsatisfactory. We should
know who was responsible for every such event, either in
India or the colonies; and that would be secured by this
bill. His hon. friend objected to the abolition of the secret
committee. But they were merely the instruments of the
President of the Board of Control, who could secretly and
orders to India through their medium without their nature
bring known either to the Court of Directors or to Parlia-
ment. But according to the bill of the noble lord every
order issuedby the President of the Council for India would
be laid before Parliament within a month after it was
issued, and would be liable to be canvassed and discussed.
Notwithstanding the inferiority of Ceylon to Hindostan in
soil and climate, and in the races by which it was inhabited.
the progi ess of that islaud, which is under Crown government,
contrasted in every respect most favourably with that made
in ladle under the government of the company. The evils
which had marked our colonial government could not appear
in India unless that house neglected its duties. Whyhad there
been an absence of corruption Beni jobbery in the adminie-
tettian of the Indian patronage? Because, under acts of
Parliament, the patronage in India was placed in the hands
of the local government in India, who were obliged to con-
fer appointments upon those who had served a certain
time in India and had certain qualifications. He cer-
taiply did not think that at a time when the administra-
tion of patronage was daily becoming more and more pure
Parliament was likely to relax those salutary provisions.
There was one reason why ho thought the present time
peculiarly suitable for legislation. Ho couldnot see with-
out the gravest apprehension the antagonistic and turbu-
lent spirit displayed by the English public and the English
press in India towards the natives. He desired that Indian
subjects should be discussed in England, that it might be
eseifehud withthatththeeopgiennieornosuosf the
analprropstlepooflittihcispoyof L
country cooirnd
Canning,-
dis-
tinctionrefEunsegclltornmanakseoalnoyngas who had s a
between a n teiv' ?Of andas tly
an Englishman
sehobueldlievsuepipotrhtatthise
Tenaecahstrireemoafi age a noble loyal
acid,s subject.
because'ct.
He
h

promote the civili3ation and the improvement of
India, and ultimately its admission into the Christian

'old. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. M. MILNES than,ght it was not the proper time to
.utro Ince n measure of this description in the midst of the
,res,nt crisis in Icdia. Ile, at al events, who ha 1 in
iis3 done all he could to perpetuate the Government of the

'4',lst In lin Coinpnny, could not sum:oil; the mensura of his
loble fried, except the strongest ca,4o in its fAvonr wen

flride out. New, he e3uld imagine that sich a case might
91s.ibly have btea presented. It might have been shown

hat at the late crisis the action of th-a double Government

isi boon so dangerous to the perwaitetica of the English
tower in India that it was noce.stTy to abolish it. But it
nil rot 1),,n shown by the n,hlo lord that. the gocees; of

iti patting down the lauclny ua•i be,h
,heeked or impeded by the double Government. Nor hr.d
been shown that the mutiny had been caused by that
laverninent. Ha did not see, therefore, hcw those who
1813 huppor tett the double Govornment could now be
ailed upon to ahaud in it. It always seemed to him most
lauscrous to obliterate in a marked and obvious manner a
irne•honoured institution ; and he therefore looke I with
:Almness on the Shortcomings of the East India Company,
lece.use they were rather due to the imperfections of hu-
•nan nature than to any want of good intentions on the
pact of the Government. Re did not' think that the free.