The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-21 00:00:00

[P 40. ►S rAmpED

endeavoured to make some further remarks but tens
unable to obtain a hearine, and resumed his seat.
The house then divided. Tee numbers were—
For the motion .
Against it
RAILWAYS IN INDIA.
Mr, LIDDELL, in calling the attention of the house to
the delay that has occurred in the construction of railways
in India, and in moving for leave to move for the appoint-
ment of a select committee to inquire into the causes that
have led to that delay, said the subject was one of great
importance, and well deserving the most serious conside-
ration of the house. So far back as the year 1841, this
great subject was brought under the consideration f the
Government of India by that great man, Sir Dinah 1
Stevenson, celebrated as an engineer. Ile went out to
India and made a survey of the line, and subsequently
made his report. A company was established, but the
scheme recommended by him was not carried out at the
time, and the difficulties of the company increased,
until they necessitated its dissolution. In 1843 the
bill for the Great Trunk lines had been obtained, and
in the year 1850 a branch line was sanctioned from Cal-
cutta to Rhanneegungee. In 1850 some progress bad
been made in the construction of lines, and he found,
that there were in that year 121 miles of railway con-
structed in the Presidency of Bengal, 87 in Bombay and
81 in Madras. It would be very unfair in him, were he
to state that 300 miles of railway only were open ; for
pani passe there had been some hundreds of rules con-
structed in the various presidencies. One great cause of
the delay was in the changes in the decisions of the Go-
vernment as to the course the 'dues should take ; and the
course en the line being sometimes altered, led to con-
siderable delay in the execution of the plan. In addi-
tion to those causes, the greatest cause of all wan the
great mutiny. In Bombay there were natural difficul-
ties. The lines in the Madras Presidency were more
easily constructed ; and amongst the facilities were the
cheap price of labour, which, for instance, was at some-
thing about 21. a day fit women and children. The
calculation for the whole co-t of constructing railways
in India was somewhere under 10,000/ In many part.
of India, railways had been c.nisti ucted at a cost of
6,0001. a mile ; and he begged to remind the house that
the average cost for the whole of India was 33,0001. In
consideration of the vast sums of money which this
country received from India, they were bound to ex-
tend ti them that which every civilised Monarch con•
ferred on his subjects. The Government, however was
not in a position to construct those railway. themselves,
because of want of money, and they headed the work
over to the companies to construct themselves, and hay-
' ing the Government sanction, it will not, to be surprised
that they assented to the Government superintendence
exercising the power of selecting and altering the lines
as they might think proper. On the other hand the
Government, in consideration of certain concessions
claimed and exercised paramount control in the construc-
tion and management of the lines. It was said that they
had given land to the estimated value of a million ster-
ling. He did ;not know on what bases that estimate
rested, and he should like to know how much money
had been paid to the ryots whose lands had been thus
disposed of. But in addition to the land, cf whatever
value it might be, the Government gave guarrantees,
varying from 4t to 5 per cent. upon the capital em-
ployed in the construction of the lines. There were
other agreements which he need not particularise, but
the general effect of which was to give the Indian
Government power to take the railway.. from the com-
panies under certain stipulated conditions, or in the
event of mismanagement. It was clear that these
conditions having been entered into, could not be dis-
turbed during the construction of the present lines,
bat 1 )(Acing forward as he did to the very large
extensions of railways in India, it was most desirable in
future to leave their promoter• as unfettered as possible,
or, at all events, very materially modify our present sys-
tem. The extent to which the Government exercised
surveillance and control, and interfered even in the most
minute particulars under that system, was such as to
lead to inevitable delay, to great s )reness and vexation
of spirit, between the Government consulting engineers
and the Company's engineers, managere, aed officers ;
and he need not add that a cordial understanding and
harmonious action between persons so situated was ab-
solutely essential to success, efficiency, and economy.
The Indian Government stipulated expressly that the
appointment of all managers, agents, clerks, and officers,
and the entering into contracts of every kind should be
subject to their sanction. That was the extent of their
power, and he would not weary the house with many de-
tails to show the way in which it was enforced, but
would take ono illustration from the case of the Madras
lines of railway, because, as that presidency bad not
been disturbed, like other portions of India, there could
be no reason for stating that the delay which had taken
place was owing to ether causes than the coa-eless io-
tervention of the Government officials with the manage-
ment of the lines. One great cause of this delay was to
be found in the fact that the consulting engineers, who
was entrusted by the Government with the supervision
of the works and the regulation of the lice, was a mili-
tary man. He wished to speak with all respect of the
scientific branches of the service, but however skilful
they taight be in the construction of a fort, or the de-
fences of a position, they were, and must be, altogether
at sea iu the construction of railway embankuiente, via-
ducts, or tunnels. If their position were reversed, and
a civil engineer placed over them, when engaged in the
defence of such a position, such a course could not fail to
lead to disasters ; and, by placing them as the control-
lers of civil engineers, they were called upon to perform
duties for which they were not fit. One would imagine
that the companies would be permitted to enter into con-
tracts, and engage their own inspectors of work on their
own responsibility, and without external interference.
Nothing of the kind. Everything had to be done sub-
ject to the authority and direction of the Government
consulting engineer. The Government forbade the com-
panies to engage inspectors of works out of the country,
and they were not to be had in it. They refused liberty
to enter into contracts, and disputes were continually
arising from this cause. Sometimes the consulting en•
gineer was in favour of what were called sealed tenders,
while the company's manager advocated open contracts,
or, in other cases, the simple system of paying ready
money for the articles required, according to the
locality and the circumstances. In one case the agent of
the Madras lines had purchased 3,000 sleepers in
Malabar, which the consulting engineer decided were
not made of any of the woods specified in the agreement.
Ile refused to allow them to be used until he was
fat niehed with the proper botanical name. A long and
irii,a log correspondence ensued, which lasted some
months, and at length it was found that the wood of
which the sleepers were made was exactly what it ought
to have been, but that it went under a somewhat
botanical name in Malabar. (A. laugh.) Then as to
stores from home. The Government sanction had to be
obtained for the purchase of these stores, and thus it
frequently happened that articles which were urgently
wanted at particular places, during the construction of
the works, were not sent out to India till 15 or 16 months
after the necessity for them had past away, and the
things were not wanted at all. That was the case in one
instance within his own knowledge, with respect to
some iron pumps that were required on the Madras and
Vellore line. So vexatiously minute was this everlasting
interference, that he had heard of a Governor in council
actually entering into a violent discussion with a railway
engineer as to the position and construction of a water-
closet. It was tide system that led to the delays Of
which he complained during the construction of the
works. But even after the lines were completed the same
fatal intervention produced the most mischievous results.
The consulting engineer claimed to fix the fares, appoint
the trains, and regulate the traffic ; and hero again, as a
necessary consequence, continual disputes arose between
him and the officers of the companiee. He did not men-
tion names, or attack individuals, but merely exposed a
bad system, which urgently call for reform. While this
was the case in India, other obstructions were offered
by the Government at home. In fact the obstruction
was felt quite as strongly, if not me re strongly than it
was in India. The plan of that line was first submitted
to the Indian Government in 1853. In August that
year a surveying party wan sent out, and in the follow -
ing April they submitted to the Government lea India a
survey of 1,114 miles, of which the home Government
sanctioned the construction of 330 miles in 1355, mind
that to a point which might be said to lead nowhere but
to a bad port, and bad bar, and a station which was
almost useless for general purposes. This the result
of three years' consideration on the part of the home
Government of India. The same delay had been
shown in the case of the extension lines of the
same company. He under:toed they were still under
consideration, and be earnestly hoped that the ex-
tension to ludore, which was the centre of the trade in
opium, would be pushed forward more rapidly in future.
The result of the system of constructing railways in In-
dia, where contrasted with that pursued in the United
States, was eminently satisfactory. Since 1830 there had
been 25,000 miles of railway constructed in the United
States, or at the rate of 1,000 miles a-year, while, after;
all the years which had elapsed since railways were fi_ros.
mooted for India, we had only opened 500 Dice Cos
Kennedy in 1842 estimated that, with a prpfsysoop,
of railways in India, two thirds of the numberhat ocoutrotry,
at present required would be sufficient for t
mounting to ,
and more efficient than the whole number at nre's6notorf6
quired. This reduction in a force a
hien would repre-
would effect a saving of 2,500,000/.,
w more than neces-
sent a capital of 60,000,0001.,
India. On commercial,
midt'e'ricedae to his motion.
he th iught the hoe-e sh.ouaeconding
the motion, snid be
sary for the construction of theya pFnrudompeocsoendomraiiclwgaroyusnfdo:
Mr. CRAWFORD,
'nation of the house to the quarter
wished to draw the a
totthtaecphre,d,pfeorrttihmeen. on-con struc-
In 1843 Mr
and in 1844 returned and
Directors, having cons',
.ttrio.zs
thoefi
pe
railway
blame
et:
c:
s.
en the subject of railways in that
reported
dared the subject, communicated, on May 7, their views
etrYGovernor-General of Bombay, and suggested that
hlisnvlBs4 the Court of
°ileuadidtdtli attention
to
i a ,
to the
a civil engineer, and Mr. Stephenson should
be authorised to proceed to India for the purpose of in-
vestigating the whole question. They proceeded to India
and returned in 1846, when they reported their opinions
h.roryTcohouernmunicated their
mt
viewsltihoent Bowotohaure
ldat
be
fea
rrDde
girouefiestCi
eor
tot r
carry
t theeta
It:, do p ho s
ea
dt fiv
un-
dertakings, and as money was then cheap there would

,S*4=
gridvrtal
East India Board the latter offered to guarantee aliatie'n°
deed of 5 per cent. for 25 years. It wasaleireigreielAbaa -
in order to prove the substantial characterOfthe rat
company who undertook to construct a certain portion
of the line in Bengal, that they should pay .100,0001. in
three months. After some negotiations WI khepheneon
was again despatched to India, with a etaff.Of officers, to
make the necessary arrangements, but then canoe the
commercial crisis in 1347;and there being' eat difficulty
in getting money, she undertaking fell to he ground. He
(Mr. Crae ford) attributed this unfortunate circumstarce
to the dilatory proceedings of the Board ef Control, who
' emoted the unlertaking in 1545, when
money was cheap.
abteeilynoaarrfaenwgendeertehatht
An lion. ME TIBER moved that the house be counted,
but several members were immediately brought in, and
rtanielmwabyere:cr.usiteldent,
Mr. CR.A.WFORD proceeded to explain that it wine
there
anth4eo be con-
structed by private individuals, and not by Government,
and that the railway companies should have th power
f selecting offi determining ce:s and determi the madee of con-
'erection. Tors declined to pay a divi-
he Court of Direct I
dend on the capital, but they agreed to • a certain
annual interest ou the capital af the reek 337
company,
g ving the sharehol lere the option of throwing the
rail-
way on the hani's of the Government ifthat- • interest
were not paid. Another conditien was, that the Govern-
ment should he represented at the working beards of the
companies by an ex-officio director on the part of the Co-
ve/ ninent authorities. Sir J. Melvill was sent out for that
purpose, but he ha I tio sooner taken his seat at the board
than he discovered that he had not the necessary autho- .
rity to carry out the views of the Government. The
hon. gentlemau then proceeded to say that the Indian
railway companies were unable even to coinmunicate
with their agents in Lelia, or to do the least thing pos-
sible to promote the undertaking% with which they v ere
connected without asking permission of the directors of
the Eist India Company to take the course proposed.
The result was greet delay and lose. He mentioned in-
stance, in which Mr. Turnbull, one of the engineers in
India of the company with which he (Hr. Crawford) was
connected, complained of the way in which he was ham-
pered in regard to his duties. He could not employ a
man at 21. a month without being obliged to state to the
authorities the why and the a herefore of the appoint-
ment. It wae not the fault of the railway compeuh-s that
railways were not rapidly ccnstrerted in India. much of '
the delay was occtsiened by the absurd obstruwions of
the Rest India Company. He mentioned the case of the
East India Railway Company in proof of this fact. The
progress of that company was interfered with for four
years by the governing power in India, but when the
company obtained the land, it constructed in the course
of three years 123 miles of railway, equal to any railway
in this country. Tee other rail ay comeaniee would al-o '
have acted with greater energy in the construction of the
various lines in India, if it were not for the absurd inter-
ference to which they were cut j_c ed by the East India
Company itself, and by the jealousies which existed be-
tween the East India Company and the Board c f Con-
trol. He urged that one mode by which facilities could
be afforded to the railway compai ies for the progress of
their works, would be to give to Sir Jas. Tvlelvill power
to act for the Kist India Company, instead of the rail-
way companies heating to go through those ferries by
which their whole proceedi igs were inconveniently
interfered with,
Mr. BAILLIE said that this question was of deep
importance to the people of India and to the Govern-
ment in a political ail military point of view. He con-
curred in thinking that it matey of the great trunk rail-
wa)s in• India had been c impletecl, it would have been
of incliculable advantage to the Government. It
wan therefore the duty of Go;einment to further the
cowl 1-tion. He believed that the Government was not
justly chargeable with neglect in this re pact, but that
any delay which had taken place was nether owing to
the vicious system of management. The railroads were
sanctioned, first of all, in 1831, and there nes no agree-
ment a ith the Government as to the time within which
they should stretch out the lines. T. were 4,220
miles of railway, and the amount of capital sanctioned
by the Government was no less than 23,000,0001 , and"
the East India Company had given a guarantee of 5 per
cent. on that sum, a. d that was the reason why the
company had exercised that efficient superintendence
which had been so much complained of. (Hear, hear.)
The Government of India was deeply interested, and
hence the active supervision of the Government. Under
these circumetauces soli-ions must often naturally take
place between the engineers employed by the railroad
coinpany and those the Government. That often arose
in this way :—An engineer was often sent out to survey,
at, a salary of 2,000/. pw annum, and when he got out
there, and found his services indispensable, he would
'write horns air an increase of salary, and then the com-
pany would say to the Government, " We cannot get on
without his services," and propose to award an increase,
as suggested ; but probably the Government would place
a veto upon this, and hence coutineal collisions. But
notwithstanding this vicious system, great progress bad
been made in the Indian railways in different parts of
India. The hon member here enumerated the lengths
of various lines of railroad in different parts of India.
Some of these lines had been completed in as short a
tune as they could have been constructed in this cams-
ry. elle delay might have taken place in consequence
of the vast increase of business upon the hands of the
Government lately ; but he believed that at the present
mement they were going on as fa t as could be reason-
ably expected. It would, however, be impossible to
give up the system, and as that would be the effeut of
this euoti an hr could no: assent to it.
Mr. AYRTON said that great embarrassment was
often the result of the present system of railway manage-
ment in India. It never could, he thought, have been
intended that the ieterferecce of the Government should
almost be of daily occurrence. Engineers of the
highest experience were sometimes controlled by young
officers of limited exeerience. The most minute mat-
t-rs were often subjects cf investigation and dispute.
He must, however, say that this motion of the boo.
member was not exactly adapted to the evils he had
brought under the notice of the house. He only
proposed
inquiry, and that would increase the delay
complained of. He doubted a'so whether it
would be wise strict nly to augment the amount
of railroads in India. He thought they should not be
carried on with too great rapidity, but rather that
they should be left to their legitimate development.
If the Government had undertaken these works they
would not have had 100 miles of railway in existence at
the present morneut. As an illustration of teis he said it
took the Government seven years to put up telegraphic
cammunication, which might otherwise have been ac-
cemplished in three years. lie was sorry, therefore, to see
the present disposition to put the Government in the
place which private enterprise would occupy to much
greater advantage. It was dangerous for Governments
thus to meddle with industry. Tee qnestion of "cheap
railways" had b-en fairly and fully examined by men of
science and great practical experience, and they had come
to the conclusion that the lines as now constructed in
India were haeed on the just medium between the one
extreme and the other. The case of America was net
analogous, because in India they cou'd not get the timber
on the spot as they could in America. On the contrary,
eome of the timber for the sleepers for the Indian lines had
actually been sent from this country. The hon. secretary
said the Indian railway companies had no interest in
these questions, because the Government might be called
on to repay ;
but were not the railway companies en-
titled to half the profits, and to other collateral advan-
tagee, and when the charges were paid off to all the pro-
fits ! (Hear, Lear.) Was the hon. gentleman aware
that the lines now formed exhibited a profit exceeding
the guaranteed interest ? One Bombay company
during the last half-year realised a net profit equal to
five per cent. on the estimated menage cost of the
lino ; arid that profit was increasing, and now tr-
ceeded five per cent. When these lines were extended to
their full limits, and the commerce of the country was
thus developed, if the railway companies were not too
much interfered with, they would arrive at that stage at
which the returns would not merely repay the Govern-
ment, but leave something substantial for theruselveie He
lieved, however, in conclusion, that the motion before
the house would not have that practical utility which the
mover supposed. They were going to have a new Go-
vernment for India. Let them give it a fair trial, and if
it did not better than the present. then let there be a full
and searching inquiry, and let the Government be brought
to a proper sense of its duty. As for censuring any one,
that was a hopeless task, for the moment any one began
tie
to endeavour to discover who was really at fault,
was sentand
from Leadenhall-street to Cannon-roe,
thence to India and from India home again.
an old pro-
Mr, R . D. MANGLES said there ,
‘.Band the East
verb that "Threatened men lived long, bdy core or a po-
India Company, whether a
bode sols
for it required, it
rate, must be extremely vivacino,u)d,
a serf
, seemed, no less than two
bills
(Laughter)
thnt during the comparatively Ilies o resolet ions
e complained
to put an end to its existence.
tively
unimportant discussions
earlier part of the evening there
which had occupied then
ce of members In tho house, but
had been a full attendance cf members In the house, Lt
that when this questoo
if vital importance. to India
that when this quest
actually
on the point of being
came on the hous.
being
in fact, only 20 members pre-
counted out, thereber than there generally was at the
sent—a less -um
Court ef DireCtOrS before the year 1853. In rebutting
is which had been made gainst the
the various accuent
he touched first on thea subjeet of
East
India Conenaetie 3n
railways, nd said that it bad been alleged that the East
lodise Company had neither the means nor the money to
carry out these undertakings ; but it bad not been shown
why the East India Company could not as easily have
raised the money as private companies. He confessed,
however, that toe present system was perhaps the better
of the two. In reply to the hon. gentleman (Mr.
A.yrtou) who had said that the East India Government
failed iu all the great public works which it undertook,
he would ask had that hon. gentleman never heard of
the Ganges Canal, which was 900 miles long, the largest
work of irrigation ever constructed in the world 1 That
was constructed by the Government which the hon. gen-
tleman asserted never succeeded iu its public works. The
next illustration of the failure of the East India Com-
pany was certainly the most unfortunate that was ever
brought forward by a member of that house, and that
was saying a good deal. (Laughter.) He referred to
the electric telegraph. The fact way, that Dalhousie's
suggestions were accepted, and, by the next mail, a no-
tification to that effect was seat out to him. His lord-
ship's energy was well known. Immediately on theerree-
ceipt of the approval of his scheme, preparations_ w
made for getting out the requisite materiel, an_ d
3,00 G
miles of electric telegraph were constructed n
pat_cielricalun
less than a year. (Hear, hear.) As to
witten be h
t he In
system of railways being compared
entlem thatdian
the
system, he begged to inform hon.
vfas 9,000?. per mile,
average cost of the A merican lines