The Sun.
London, England, 1804-07-12 00:00:00

HOUSE OF GO4llll-.W.

WEDNESDAY., JULY 11.
•
In pursuance of a f.,trty!t- Order t:E. the House,
certain Accounts were presented at the Bar from
the Chi.el Secretary's Office for Ireland, which were
ordered,to he printed.
The Annual Account fr,rn the Trustees of Rams. .
gate.Harbour was also presented, and ordered Cu bi
printed.
Oa the INl)tion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL,
leave Was give;t t. bring in a Bill to,exrlain, alter,
and ,amend certain prcivisions of ~the Ddence Att,
reipanitii 'the purchase of Linds. and Iferediraments
for the better accommodation of the pl11;liC
.Lora MARtiliAtvi presented at the B.ir the Minutes
of the Evidence taken before theMildlesex Corn.
tnittee,, solar as retatcd tOthe Special Report, which
. were ordered to lie on the Table, and to he printed.
Alderman Coma rm,p,,yed, that leave be given to
Wing Bill, to xplitin and amend the Defence
Act,. so far, as related to the City. of London, which
was accordingly granted.
A paitio was,Rie4nied by, tve of Lon.
dim, in their rohfs, .11oM the 1,,i411 -Ktyor,, Alder-
trier), and Cormpoo qii:uncit, of the City of London,
itlfarining„the. Jiouse,...thai the 'Poultry C‘Ompter,
PFiair ,rasLin such tee
st as tilt iiiOt to i fur tare
.44ceptior) of. Debtors, and praying I r leave. 0
rep.tiir.tt sane.:
Qu the ,i\lidti;in of. Sir intim A,1:r0;a"41?4, leirc
.
svai girs„noo„ bring in 4, l'.i.i.tlq,o4llUthl34llt tO the
• ' •
,Ocri4ftcil :Petit ion
_from the, v
Lor4 Aldettne.9,. And 9Min
thslqiiy...of,.XpntiOnf„to rthe rotnoval of
sncll,llexsoos a Ivc.re C:)1,11!?y(1 foolery Cyrnp_
teroill it. should; ,receiv ;41 licintentled repairs, which
has referred, an the Motion or,Sit j. AIiDE.P.SO.N;
to a Special clapninit,tee.:,
• The Jamaica, Free Putt Bill was read a tilird time
and passed:„
; Mittman , brought. in a. Bill tti.
amend,-, and trrykr more effeetual the ..pefenc'e
50f4,17 as it related to !lie City of Luncitm,
,which
was tear i a,.first, time, and ordered to be red a second
time to.rporro%F.
A lyls,oelge was received from Coe ,Lorls,,inform.
Ing the, House of their. Lordships' co:citirecee. with
iherForcign Enlistment Bill, 1,,0nd,0%' Vic, 1
Niaricet. Bill, and several other private Billy, 14101.0
out any ..tkinelltlMitts.
Their Lordships also requested a Ci,py,
Report, of the Committee appointed to take into.,
consideration the several Pet:turns respecting ';the,
Corn Laws, • .
A dilly of the Report of the said Committee was.
accordingly
.ordered, and .tl4, Messenger's beinz
;called; iPs • • . • . ,
The SPR,Ag.tqt informed them, That the lii'me
•
• having taken into consideration‘the request of their.
L had agreed to sen k a Copy of the said
R-port, which was accordingiy delivered to the
Messengers.
A .‘Nlessoge,from the. Lords informed the Howie,
that their Lordships had ii,irPlt4 to th,Foreign,ltna,
• listment Bill, antl,_.tothe Iloßtjpiq,Co4,,.Market
I?,<TEE.,thcnbrought%ip the Bill Fur p-emit.
ti944e Warehousing,of, Irish Spirits in Ireland
coltotirtglifrio4l4.,ro, Asitpqf tt,g 4 Duty, ,on thcir4
,WalcllCWsS4,, The 1,1,11 s, is read, a 11/.4
tirpe.,,44.90,, t4e.: rilueiun that it be read ,a .second.
CYR,Pi r 11..1
PAJ.INC/4', curse, Heil ter OppOSC the
Iftt! to eau tl r )ttenllPm.,9lAC
his mode 41 very
impv4tic4) 14tr u'i
1110,f3fiPtItOP4Iti 9fftlr•OUPM;cr,,4st"
!n upon. .Whot.ever might be r remark,
;41,.i,1,!:;e5•tP1.; to meet, he hop,-,1
gociel pc,thetri..wouhl.!l4. looked -upon as personal to
41e 4ktirAtt ilondurabif Gentleman whom
ecru.. oiclfy tv 440.. • For that 'Cientitman, (Mr.
or) - •

roorzel he entertained a great. (?agree of re. !
weep, oral hid he arty influence io aupoietieg. Mini.
fOr Itel;nde that Right Hon. (etotenter)
tti odd he among the first • wh mite should recom-
oleod to fill the importent coffee, the duties ef whisk
.he for. some time beck appeared to have uedertaken
to discharge.' But notwithstanding that appearencee,
there still reinaieed double who in reelity was
oo charged it ith the exerotion of to office of
Cheneeller of the Eechequer for i relate'. In eehe r
he had to state upon dile.' subjea, ,he should en-
dir4 yr or' to proceed tolely on Parliamentary ground,
tt ithoueliateoing to any thieg that Party intrigue
er political partiality might suggest. He should
first, observe, as the House must often have bad act.
ca,ion to observe, that the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Fooree) had frequently aaed as
Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland. He
had moved for several Official Documents to be
produced by the proper Officers 'he had made many
official statements to the House nn the financial af.
fairs of Ireland ; he had also favoured the House
tvith observations, which tended to throw some light
on the nature and amount of the balances which are
supposed to remain in the hands of Commissioners
of the Treasury of Irelewl. He should now take the
liberty to ask by what official authority did that Rt.
Hon. Gentleman make those statements, and call for
those documents ? Was the Rt. Hon. Gentleman sure
that -these documents' came •from the proper Office
and the proper Officer ?. That was a point which
,it
was the duty of the House to ascertain ; and here
he begged leave to remind the House of a fad. It
referred eu an account presented from the Admiralty
some years ago, purporting to he an account of the
numher of ships reoployed. In the first account
presented a material error was deteattl, and it was
consequently withdrawn, and another substituted in
its room, With the error correaed, atol the more
accurate account signed by the proper officer. Why.
does the House continue to observe this form re.
speaing written documents, unless to make the pro.
per officer responsible for any mistake that may tend
.to mislead the House, and to ascertain to whom any
mistake which may occur should properly be imputed?
Jr would now appear that the Office of Chancellor
of the Exchequer for Ireland was held by one who'
ceased to execute the funaions of that office, while
these funaions were discharged by another who did
not acknowledge that he held the office ; fur if he
held or had accepted the, office, he no doubt would
have vacated his sear,conformably to the existing law
on,that point. He should here content himself with
oloervhig, 'that if' the House thought it their duty
to be so stria with regard to the certification of
written documents, he was convinced by a parity of
reasoning and by analogy, that they should be
equally .strict with regard to every oral statement
made in arty department of public office; 'and that
they should take care that such statements should
come before them on the part of persons whom they
knew to be in office, arid whom they would look
upon as answerable for the truth and accuracy of
what they orally sealed, as well as for the accuracy
of the written documents which they effieially lairs
before the House. And, indeed, what would be
the 'situation of the House 'if they were to be thus
misled on material points? . These would be no re.
spoosible person to step forward to assert the'accu.
racy of the documents *laid before file Pious . f.
the statements or documents were brought forward
by 'the Right Hon. Gentlemen (Mr. I+ orrea), "he'
might says, he was not in office, and therefore was not
stria!), responsible for them. If the House rooked
to another; Right Hal. Gentleman (Mr. CORRY),
who was supposedrstill to remain in office, he might
say, he' made no such statements; he produeed no
such documents ; antitherefore he should not be
held responsible for either. Responsibility would
therefore attach to neither, Where then would he
the retried). Of the House on 'such occasions ? No
epplicaiion could he made to the Crown to remove
a person who afted only .as a private individual ; and
where then waa the Perliamentary check which it
was imagined that Parliament might interpose on
suh occasions ? if such a principle and 'precedent was
admitted, it was difficult to say with what abuses
it 'might hereafter be attended. He should' 'only
riat,-that it any Aleivhsi of that Houst accepted an
Office
.upder the Crown, it was usual rot him instant.
ly'to'iai7ates his seat,'and go hack to his•. Constituents
as one who lied accepted, of such an effice. If the
psi seoe instance was out attended to, that check
would be rendered completely null, and the Law of
Verliemenf. utterly of tie avail. To this it was that
he felt 4niiOus to tilted elm attention of the HOuse,
in the hope that those who urelerstood its forms bet
ter'thart fiedi.il,eeirielitundertelee to clear up a paint
which to hlto arpear6d to be 'of infinite iMportanee;*
FOSTI,k cenfeeced that he should have rather
felt eletewied if-he had acted as at) official person w the
our, at the same time, holding ally office; but his cert..'
dfiFt, he argued, 'was riot tncensistent 'with the
'eider of 'a private Member of that House ; and he
could nett help regarding the condua of the Gentle.
man who had just at down, as unconstitutional in the
hiotteii degree. ' If' no Gentleman had a right. to in.
terfrie such as were in office, the
frivilegee toe Howie would be abridged in a man.
ci that Wouid oerrnti• against the spirit of the Cor.'
et it ution The too the hail lately aded did riot neces.
fierily tine!) an, 'Fk had interf-red
still more two. ears 4/ri where --.he had Moved' for
tot eis papers, and proposed severed public ineaeures,
eree weer) •no 'l,ll:retlo(i'.hed been offered to his
Ooreluet; He .cetiaiulk 'nnt, he said, in
bffiCe ; butietia' a Member' of 'Pertiement, eon.'
ceieco that 'he had not cost,' a right, letit that it
ivas his duty' (0 aet. the ter, he was now pursue
In regard to the reapriosibiloy that had been.
alluded to, he coeeeived it reptignan, I,J etiefy Ingo;
ciple of the' Constitution, and Is having a tendency
to check freedom of Debate, to imagine that a Peti.
jeeee could be presented to His' Mleety to -renjove.
stray Ct,n111.71113.0 from ',Rice' for what he might say
sir that 1--Loeeo 'Such a petition could only be pre.
Sewed for comito9 put or that House, As the Input).
iibiliry of the Chancellor of the Exchequer could
t 6 hie office out of that House, and riot to
his cendoet in it, I:ad he to'-!etts 'he said, in any
fristutice; nb ChencellUr of the 'Exchequer out If 'Eh
luuSe ther Ini hr pethape have been some room
i,r tits, jatna:tveriions Hon.-Member ; but
4ch condoel, or any sub possible construdion
cot-iltd) otoit'es;;lz deeled. tic cuncluded
•

;;;)y

with exprec pi n a hnre, that the Hon. Gentleman
would see die ptopiiety olheredroppifT ill,' Matter,
as the disens%ion could lead to no beneficial ohjt'a ;
and dbegge'ti that the lion. GtotiAnati would nut
pcisiit r'.uiltinp, hint into an oflic'e tor which he
felt no partici,' :ynkition. _ .

- Ir. WINDH .af, in- a very happy. vein of !tu-
mour, inveighed against the equivocal situation and
.con,ltin of the Right 11-n. (7.;-ntfeman, who seemed to
have the duties of the office assigned to him, with-
out the eint)lum.:nts. 11e contended that the line of
conduCl followed by the Right Him. Gentleman
I was contrary to the usage, prattice, and principle.
of 4he .Law of Parliatmni,• and on the ground of
usage alone, was liable to id It had been
said, that the'House had no right to make a rept...-
sentation to the hu- any thing (tine in that
House : his Him. Friend, however, had no such idea,
but merely Submitted to the House the ptopriety of
inquiry into the subjen. The Right lion. Gentleman
had said, that he had . right to make the Motions, as
a private Member of the Howe ; but that Gentleman
must certainly be.convinced that it was not the usual
way of conduding the business of the House. 'The
Right Hon. Gentleinan, he argued, might mislead the
House in the several representations he might give
them, and afterwards might plead exemption from re.
sponsibility, as nut having been in office. It became
highly necessary, therefore, that the House should
have some responsible person to look to. There
was no, law on the suhket, he would admit, but
there was so much inconveniency attached to it, that
it became a very proper subject 'of inquiry for the
House. No Member appointed to any office under
the Crown war at liberty to vote, or to retain his seat
in that House, till duly re-eleded. • The principle
of this regulation was obvious, and the restridion,
he thought, ought also to be extended to expedants ;
and on the same principle, would most likely have
been done, could they have been with equal cer.
tainty ascertained. If, therefore, expedants, corn.
ing under the reason of the law, ought . to come
under its operation • also, the Right HOnoUrable
Gentleman ought certainly to vacate his sear, as
before the House, and in the face of the public,
he was putting himself forward in the place of ex.
lienancy. The Right Hon. Gentleman says he is
not in office; yet in the eyes of the House, and of
the Country, he has long been executing all the
duties, and exerting, perhaps, all the influence of a
Chancellor of the Exchequer fur Ireland. He should
only call upon the oldest Member of the House,
and ask, if he had ever before observed so singular
a phenomenon, a working Chancellor of the Ex.
'chequer, and a sleeping partner; the sleeping
partner receiving all the emoluments—the labour.
ing partner doing every thing gratuitously ; a
Chancellor of the Exchequer with two heads, two
mouths ; yet the speaking one without bread to eat.
He would only ask, to which of the heads the House
was to apply for information on public matters ?
The official one was silent ; the speaking one de-
clined all. responsibility. It was for. the House to
decide on a point so strange and ambiguous.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXC:HEQUER said
much entertainment had been introduced upon- a
• dull point, while scarcely any thing was said to
the question before the House, which merely re.
garde(' the warehousing of home.made spirits in Ire-
land. see very little danger in the pre.
cedent .from which so much mischief was ap,
prehended, for : the example could not be very
contagious, of those who undertook the labours of
office, without the emoluments, which was the case
of his Right Honourable Friend, Neither had
his Right Honotirable Friend, proceeded to origi.
nate any one measure which it was not equally
competent for any other Member of the House to
have undertaken. He was therefore at a loss to sec
how any law had been violated ; and' until the time
came when he could receive the emoluments of of.
flee, and fully enter on the discharge of all its .du.
ties) he did not feel that his Right Hon. Friend was
: bound to vacate his seat. The whole of the con.
• versation which had arisen on this Bill he could not
imagine to be exadly within order; for it was dif.
ficult to reconcile it with a measure which had only
in view to warehouse spirits in Ireland.
Mr. SHERIDAN treated the subjea with much
pleasantry. lt was acknowledged that the Right
Hon. Gentleman was not obliged to vacate .his seat
till he was in the actual receipt of the emoluments of
the office. But was he not all along exerting the
influence which that office afforded,
and might he
not be converting that influence to the very put.
pose which it was the °Ned of that wise regula.
'ion of Parliament to counteract and to defeat ?
The Right Honourable Gentleman denies' that
he hoicla any office, yer, however, as a mere
individual, he undertakes arrangements, from which
the most serious effeds may arise. He pledges his •
word, as- an individual, to the Bank of Ireland,
that' the issue of the Treasury Bills shall not inter.
fere with the Loan. Does nut the Bank of Ireland
look to him as having aded from authority in such
ran assertion; or, if he is clothed with no authority,
does-not an arrangement formed upon such grounds
tend to shake the credit of that Bank ? •Mr. SHER I I.
DAN very humorously compared the double-headed
Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Munster in
Shakspeare's Tempera; not only two heads, but two
voices, and these voices dissenting from each other.
entered into al, ei:th:Jlitte defence
of his Right Hon. Friend ('vlr. FosTeß), and ask.
ed,
.11 it was to he imputed to him as a crime that,
by a previous discharge of any office, he had waived
I, to his-Constituents hiS fitness aed ability fully to
execute its duties, whenever ;hey were officially and
formally unfenced upon taa ?
pr,,L4WRANCit entered into a variety of at-
: gmnents; to prove how near and anomalous was the
situation in which the Right Hon. Gentleman stood,
and hop completely it defeated the law which Parlia.
ment 14 so wisely elorded to prevent such abuses.
Mr. FR,ING'IS,' in explanation, said, that he
never denied the stria right of the Right Hon.
Gentlerwin to make what motions he pleased.; he
only con:ended, that such conduit was contrary to
the image of Parliament, and might afford a very
dangerous precedent. ,
Mr. KINN/11111) contended, that the -Right
lion, Gentleman :tad throughout aced as if he
were. in possession• of. official power, and he for
one would have refused him his vote, on several
occasionai did he not imagine that the Right Hon,

Gentleman was ;ti=ling under the Atria . responsibility
of a Minister: Ire could not but now disapprcve.of
his condal, it was not fair to the country—To Ire.
lanai it was ivsoliing'and degrading.
Mr. G. j9IINSTON.R wishe4l to know if the
Right Hon. Gentlein,in had aced merely as an in.
dit, tibial in managing the arrangement with the Bank
of Ireland tespeting the Treasury Bills ?
- Mr. Hu mit wsoN thought the Bill before the
Home of very great impiqtance to Itel And, . and
wished it might be printed.
.The question was then very generally called for,
and die Bill was'read a second time, and ordered to
be rimed.

Oil the Motion that the Irish Vote of Credit Bill
be r•Nid a second, !inlet

. _
Mr. joitNs-roNr, repeated his question to Mr.
FosTr a. respettiing the arrangement with the Irish

Mr. FosTER denied having bad any immediate
concern with that arrangement, which•he only un.
dersrood from many quarters to-have taken place.
After some more conversation on the same sub.
jeft between Mr. SHERIDAN, Mr. FosTER, and
Mr. JoHNsToNE, the Bill was read a first time, and
ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. The
Bill was then ordered to be printed.
The Report of the India Budget was brought up,
and the Resolutions agreed to.
The. Report of the Comniittet of Ways and
Means was then brought up, and, on the Motion
that the Resolutions be 'read a second time, respect.
ing the Holders of the Loyalty Loan,
Mr. ADDINGTON rose to observe, that un.
'avoidable business prevented him from attending
when that question was last before the House, but
• when it was debated on a former occasion, a large
majority of the, House had determined, that the
Holders of the Loyalty Loan were not entitled to
re-payment. before. 'the month of April, 1805.--,
That opinion had also the sanction of the highest
Law Authorities in the Kingdom.
The Resolutions were then agreed to, and a Bill
ordered to be brought in upon them.