The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-05 00:00:00

THE SUN,

He was also uneNhle to give the house any information
on the demands euide by Lord Eigio, that resting with
the noble lord in the wide discretion that had been
given to him. Rig object was to effect a direct commu-
nication between this country and the highest authorities
in China. England was joined in the beginning with
France, and afterwards with the United States, and
Russia had lately given a partial concurrence in what
we were doing in China. As soon as possible,'and con-
sistent with our allies, be woul I give the house further
information on the subject. A message had been sent
to Lord Elgin to return to Canton to meet the Chinese
Cdfnmissioner. .
Mr.' BRIGHT complained that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer as usual had answered the question of the
noble lord without giving any actual information. Re
had not a seat in Parliament when the question first
came before Parliament, and he had had no opportunity
of stating his opinion on the origin of the complicated
affairs they now found themselves involved in. He
I entirely concurred in the course his hon. friend the late
1 member for the West Riding took on the occasion
alluded to. Two unfortunate things resulted from fo-
reign co-partnerships in matters of this kind. Oae was,
that the course of negotiations was by such alliances to a
large extent taken out of te hands of the English
Government ; and, secondhly, that, according to
the theory of the right honourable gentleman,
the House of Commons, n coesequence of such
alliances, could know nothing about the matter, be.
cause having allies we must act with them. (Hear, heai:.)
They did not know what object France had in joining us
in the affair of China, any more than they did their own
object, and it was not to be expected the House of
Commons would wait until the negotiations were
at an end to know what our objects were
towards China. (Hear, hear.) The last war with
China did no good beyond opening Canton to the
commercial world, and this war was likely to be less
productive if these complicated affairs were to be con-
tinued. He warned her Majesty's Government against
continuing a war that originated with their predeces-
sors, and by adopting a straightforward course they
would earn the respect of the people.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said there were between 60 and
70 vessels, including between 18 and 20 gun-boats in
the East, and there were rather more than 12,000 men
there. That included the whole of the naval forces in
the East Indies and China. That force would be re-
duced at the earliest practical moment.
ARREST OF CAPTAIN JUDKINS—THE SLAVE
TRADE AND COMMISSIONER YEll.
Mr. HORSFALL asked the Under-Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs whether her Majesty's Govern•
ment had received any intelligence from New York of
the arrest of Captain Judkins of the Royal Mail steamer
Persia ; and, if so, whether the circumstances of the
case warranted such a procedure on the part of the
American authorities.
Mr. WILSON asked the Under-Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs whether there was any objection to
lay upon the table copies of correspondence between the
British Government and that of the United States, upon
the measures taken for the suppression of the Slave
Trade ; and, if not, when such papers would be pro-
duced ?
Mr. LAURIE asked the Under Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs how Commissioner Yeh was to be
disposed of ; whether he was to be c mfined as a pri-
soner in India or in England ?
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said her Majesty's Govern•
ment had not received any official information on the
arrest of Captain Judkins, and of course he could give
them no official information respecting that circumstance,
and they were unable to say if that arrest was justifi-
able or not. With reference to the question of the
hon. member for Devonporth, her Majesty's Govern-
ment would give the correspondence referred to, espe-
cially as the American Government had published their
version of the matter. Iler Mej Isty's Government had
been in correspondence with the A inerican Government
and expressed their regret should anything have occurred,
but her Majesty's Government did not think it fit to ley
secret correspondence at present before the house.
Orders, had been sent out for an inquiry into the circum-
stances of the Cuban affair, and also instructions to our
officers there to use the grea est caution in exer-
cising the power with which they had bean en-
trusted. With reference to the third question, it was
ound desirable to remove Coneraiszioner Yeh from
China, and ho was taken to Calcutta, where he now re-
mained, and he (Mr. Fitzgerald) feared the hon. gentle•
man who had put the question would not have an oppor-
tunity of seeing Commissioner Yeh in this country.
(Laughter.)
STATE OF THE THAMES. -

Mr. GRIFFITH asked the Chief Commissioner of
Works whether ho was not aware that, in any conside-
ration of the state of the water of the Thames, the
whole question at issue was that of the effect npou
the purity of the air which might be produced by the
liberation of gases injurious to health from the water.
(The hon. member addressed the house amidst loud
and repeated cries of "Oh, oh !" "adjourn," "order,"
and much laughter.)
Lord J. MANNERS admitted his inability to answer
the question, and suggested he should address a letter
to the chairman of the committee now sitting, with re•
ference to the Thames, stating his willingness to give
valuable evidence on the subject.
RIOTS AT BELFAST.
Mr. J. FITZGER.A.LD called the attention of the
house to the recent riots at Belfast, and asked the Clief
Secretary for Ireland whether it was the intention of
Government to propose any measure for the better pre-
servation of the peace and protection of property in that
borough.
Lord NAAS said, that on Sunday last, on the occa-
sion of the funeral of a man who had been the chairman
of a well-known political association, an affray took place
between the police and the Roman Catholic population.
Several persons collected, and considerable excitement
ensued. The operations of this riotous assemblage con-
sisted principally in stone throwing, and that no serious
damage either to person or property was done. He was
sorry to say that during the day aad night of Monday
and Tuesday- these occurrences were repeated, and
though he had no official information of what had taken
place on Wednesday, he feared that up to a late hour
that night the riotous proceedings had continued. Upon
the first intimation that the Government had of these
proceedings they took the strongest possible steps to
repress them. A large force of cavalry were sent imme-
diately to Belfast, numbering nearly 1,000 men, Mr.
Coulson, a stipendiary magistrate of the grea'est expe-
rience and intelligence, with two other stipendiary ma-
gistrates, had been ordered to proceed thither to assist
Mr. Tracey. The Crown solicitor had been sent to take
the depositions that might be laid against the rioters ;
in fact everything that could be done to suppress these
unfortunate proceedings had been done. (Hear, bear.)
As to the measures which the Government proposed for
! the better preservation of the peace in future, it was his
intention to submit to the house that evening a bill which
proposed to deal generally with the police force in towns
in Ireland ; and he thought the hon. and learned g n-
tleman would be perfectly satisfied with what was pro-
posed. He believed that the ordinary law of the coun
try wa' amply sufficient for the suppression of 'riot and
disturbance provided the law were put in force with
prudence and energy. (Hear, hear.) He did not see that
the Government could take any further steps in the
matter ; and from what he had heard that afternoon he
had every reason to believe that those riots would be
promptly and speedily pat down. (Rear.) The state of
the town was very different from what it was last year.
The population had now no arms in their hands, and the
riots were not likely to be of so serious a nature as they
were last year. He could assure the house that the
matter occupied the constant and hourly attention of
the Government, and every means that prudence and
experience could suggest would be used to put an end
to these proceedings. (Hear.)
Col. FRENCH said that all the measures taken would
be at the public expense. Why should not Belfast he
treated in the same way as any other district, and made
t pay the crab of the increa ed force tLat i.ias required
to put do en the disturbance ?
The motion fir adjournment until Monday was then
agreed to. •
THE INDIAN RESOLUTIONS.
Mr. GLADSTONE gave notice cf his intention to
move two resolutions when the house ntxt went into
committee on the Government of India. He proposed
to move, as an amendment oo the third resolution, with
which the discussion would begin—" Teat, regard belt g
had to the position of affeis in In lie, it is expedient to
constitute t'-.e Court ef Directors of the East India Com-
pany to be the council for adroinistericg the government
of India, in the DEMO of her Mejesty, and under the
puperintendetUe of such responsible minister, until the
end of the next session of parliament." In .he event of
that amendment being agreed to he khou;d move a far-
th-r res,lation, to the effect that. the President of the
Board of Control should be empowered to preside over
the Court of Directors, in lieu of the cha'etnan thereof,
and to exercise all the powers now (x-rcised by such
chairman.

out the resolutions of the commissioners, but the right
hon. and learned gentleman opposed the extension of the
principle to unencumbered estates. His bill was referred
to a select committee with power to examine witnesses.
He proposed now to refer the present bill to a select
committee, but be did not mean that they should exa-
mine witnesses, but merely that they should sift the bill
and then reproduce it to the house. If that course was
not approved of by the house he was willing to consider
it in committee of the whole house, for he entirely ap-
proved of the main object of the measure. The bill pro-
posed to abolish the present court, and to substitute for
it a new court, to be called the Landed Estates Court.
He had no oljection to any change of that kind, pro-
vided the new c iurt preserved the system for the free and
open sale of landed estates. But it behoved them to
apply those safeguards which would prevent the new
court from becoming a second Court of Chancery. Now,
what was to be the jurisdiction of the new court ?
First, it was to have the sale of unencumbered as well as
of encumbered estates ; the administration of the funds
produced by the sales, and the settlement of all the
equity connected with the estates. Where there were
contracts for the sale of land the court was to carry out
t',e decree for their specific performance ; it was to ap-
point receivers, and to pronounce decrees concerning the
titles of all persons who chose to come to it for that pur-
pose. If the house did not proceed with the utmost
caution there was great danger lest a court invested
with these powers should become a second Court of
Chancery. The great object they had in view was to
continue the system which gave the country the advan-
tage of a market overt for the sale of land, where per-
sons could purchase in whatever quantities they liked.
Now, to encumber the court with the appointment of
receiver. and, as connected therewith, the care and
supervision of the estate, was to make the first departure
from the simple character of the Encumbered Estates
Court. (Hear, hear.) He must set his face against
leaving to the new tribunal a power which would be so
ruinous in its consequences as the appointment of re-
ceivers over the land. He also objected to giving to the
new court the power of dealing with settled estates.
Then the court was not only to sell estates but to enter-
tain the extensive jurisdiction for the enforcement of
specific contracts for the sale of land in all their ramifi-
cations. He was not opposing the creation of a distinct
court, but they ought to apply safeguards to prevent its
becoming a second Court of Chancery. He wished to
call the attention of the house to the 38th clause, which
empowered the court to send questions of fact to be
tried by a court of lair. All their attempts had been re-
cently directed to give unity of jurisdiction to the several
courts, but this bill departed from that principle by em-
powering the new court to send issues to be tried by a
court of law. The court would have to carry out the
sales of the Court of Chancery, the Court of Bank-
ruptcy, and the Court of Insolvency ; yet the bill pro-
posed to reduce the court from three to two judges. He
was anxious to save the country from any unnecessary
expense, but he thought the efficiencyof the court shoul i
be the first consideration. He hoped that two judges
would be sufficient to do all the business. He could not
speak too highly of the efficiency and activity of all the
commissioners. What he should recommend would be
this, that the three commissioners should be retained,
but th it when a vacancy took place it should not be filed
up unless public necessity required it. They could not in
justice supersede Mr. Hargreaves with a less pension
than the 2,0001. a-year, which was the salary which he
bad as commiasiener. He would give all the judges the
same salary. (Hear.) He begged to fall the attention of
the right hon. gentleman the member for Ca lisle to the
72d clause of the bill, which empowered the court to
nominate a number of conveyancing counsel—not less
than three—to aid and assist the judges in the investi-
gation of titles to estates. And by the following clause
it was provided that if any party objected to the opinion
of the conveyancing counsel, the judge might instruct
counsel to app tar before him for the purpose of support-
ing his opinion. (Hear.) This was a principle of the bill
to which he must entirely objet`, because by giving the
judge power to call in conveyancing counsel to aid him,
the responsibility of the judge, which was the great se-
curity for the public, would be interfered with. Under
the present system in this country there was the safe y
t r be derived from the responsibility of a judge of high
character sitting in court. But by the appointment of
these conveyancing counsel the responsibility would be
thrown on the advisers of the parties, and he entirely
objected to the proposal. Another point was the mode
in which the court was to be provided for by sec. 89.
The expenses were to be met by a duty to be levied on
all estates sold under the court, 10.1. per cent. under
10,0001., and 1 per cent. beyond. He quite approved of
this principle, but he thought the higher rate should be
levied on the smaller estates ; 201. would not be much
on an estate of 2,0001., but on a large property like that
of Lord Thornond, which lately produced 450,0001., the
same per ceotage would amount to a very large sum. If
this bill passed, it would remove almost all the business
from the Court of Chancery ; at present the business of
that court in Ireland was confined principally to the sale
of estates, and if the new court got power to sell and ad•
minister all the equities ari ing therefrom everybody,
would prefer so cheap a tribunal to the Court of Chan-
cery, where he would be met at every step by fees and
stamps. As to the proposed arrangement with the Bank
of Ireland, be thought it would be impossible to keep
the clause ; all the matter to which he had referred
would be much better coesidered in a select committee.
He would nsxt call attestors to the most important
clause, the 50th, which gave the new jurisdiction to the
court. To reference to this, and almost all the other
clauses, he should say that the language was opea to the
greatest objection, and the bill was evidently drawn up
in a hurry. Under the 50th section, any owner who
desired to have his title investigated, and a judicial de-
c!aration made that he had a good title, might apply to
the court, whereupon the court should investigate it,
and if the title appeared satisfactory the judge should
make and sign a written declaration to that effect, sealed
with the seal of the court, and should state in a schedule
any leases, tenancies, and encumbrances to which the
estate was subj set, and such declaration shall make it
conclusive and indefeasible. The clause made no dis-
tinction between the owner of an estate in the land and
the owner of the land itself. Under the clause the judge
was bound to investigate the title of every incumbrancer
and of every tenant. (Hear.) The owner might oblige
every one of those parties to come before the court, and
there was no pr vi-ion to make him liable for their costs.
It was staid that the bill was founded on the report of
the cemmittee last year, but it did not carry out one of
their recommendation. The right hon. gentleman the
Attorney-General for Ireland did not sufficiently dis-
tinguish between a registry of conveyances and a registry
of titles ; the bill did nothing but establish a mode of
conveyance with a statut able title. The present registry
in Ireland was nothing but a registry of conveyance.
He thought that the 'soth clause ought to be struck
out ; it would 'pen the door to a great number of frauds.
He was anxious that the bill should pass, bat for the
reasons he had stared he thought it would be better to
refer it to a select committee. He had no desire, how-
ever, to defeat the bill, and would withdraw his motion
if his hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General as-
sured him it would defeat the bill. He would only de-
tain the house with one more remark—that was in refer-
ence to the Master, Mr. Flanagan. That gentleman had
given up a lucrative practice to accept his office, and to
his exertion the success of the measure was in great mea-
sure owing. The bill proposed to dispense with his ser-
vices, and leave him to the mercy of the Treasury for
compensition. He ought to be placed in the same posi-
tion as Mr. Hargreaves, and allowed his full salary un-
til appointed to some other poet.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was glad that this dis-
cussion had taken place, as he was satisfied the more the
bill was discussed the more it would be approved of. He
would beg to state shortly the reasons why he could not
adopt the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman to re-
fer the bill to a select committee. The bill involved cer•
tain leading and important features which must some
time or. other be discussed by the house, and even if the
bill went to a select c3minittee they would still require
to be discussed in the house. In addition to these lead•
ing features there were a number of details. All those
details were borrowed from the Encumbered Estates
C ,urt, where they had been tested by working. The
bill, like all other large bills, was susceptible of improve-
anent; but he had real it carefully, and was bound to
say it was dia en with the greatest care and skill. The
measurefer the establishment of the En :umhered Estates
Court was a very strong one, and was violently opposed.
It his I, ho weve r, conferred great benefits on Ireland, and
ell parties, owners of property and (Mere, admitted the
great benefits It bad conferred. It was true the present
Chancellor of I, elend had opposed his original bill, but
he had :ince fully adopted the pi ieciple of a parliamentary
title. Ile wo Id briefly call the attention of the house t ,
the principal features of the horiset-Trie first was it gave
power to sill encumbered estates. That was notnine
new. The second went further, and gave power to sell
and give a parliamentary title to unencumbered estates.
The third is eat still f, ether, and without any sale, simply
on the requisition of the owner of a f,e simple, enabled
the c .uri to invssitigate the title and give him an inde-
feasible title. With reference to the last two features,
he must seer it had always appeared to him that the
argument was most logical and most conclusive in favour
of taking the three step. Suppose an estate wor.h
100,0001., having an encumbrance of 10,0001. on it, the
encumbrancer was the owner of 1-10th of it, but as re-
garded the other 9-10:13s the est ate was unencumbered;
there was no magic in the fact of there being an encum-
brance that afforded no additional security. On the
contrary, no person had so much iuterest in concealing
any flaw in the ti le as an encumbrancer. They could not
confine the bill to encumbere 1 estates. If they did, it
would be giving a premium to those who had acted ex-
travagantly ; and in practice the limitation would be in-
effectual, as there were many instances in which an en-
cumbrance was created merely to bring an estate under
the jurisdiction of the present cour`a In point of prin
ciple or of practicability, theref, re, they could not still
shut out encumbered estates. The riev. point W 33 whether
the title -hould not be given without the formality of a
s de. There was no magic in the fact of a sale which gave
any additional security ; their o'ject should be to obtain
the greatest security human iugenuity could secure, and
the best 'wide of doing so would require E very conside-
ebfirwr, :no;
sledl
upnd apply
„pee
dat:
going through the form of a tale as they now
l
e
el
awl:ode:leid trustedcproom thatpeeri,,t
yh
ei
nni f
ttihlbreiiyss
ts
country. He t elieved owners of landed property were
yiestdai
sinsw;ir nisei el:a:en,
nqadyub,i,rtstaihetnemectetitsom.o obtain a ti le, they would
hardly aware of the bees,fit such a measure wouls be to
them. No lazes to which the land was subject pressed
so heavily as those connected with the sale and trans-
fer of it. S -me years ago an act was passed "To render
the assignment of satisfied terms unnecessary," he bad
felt some curiosity to ascertain what saving had been
effected by it, He applied to one of the most eminent
conveyancers, and from the data furnished by him,: he
was satisfied the saving was not less than 300,0001. If
a bill like the present passed it would increase the value
of every fee simple to the owner from 5 to 10 per cent.
The right hon. gentle vas s-ete afraid the new court would