The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-11 00:00:00

S-t+"C

vernment, but of the separate Governments of individual
States. Such was the present state of things in America,
according to the best testimony ; and he could not help
feeling that the example of that country had its due
weight with the inhabitants of our own, wbo, he felt as-
eared, were by no means desirous to alter our constitu-
tion, in order to assimilate it with that which existed at
the other side of the Atlantic. But, although he felt
persuaded that such as he had described it to be was
the general inclination of the people of these king-
doms, yet it was, he thought, impossible not to per-
ceive that the usual means by which the balance of
a constitution was changed was by having recourse
to gradual and petty alterations—(hear)—none of
which were perhaps of extreme importance in them-
selves, but each of which tended to consequences upon
which there was much reason to look with apprehen-
sion. (Hear.) There could, for instance, be no doubt that
the avowed policy of that party in this country which
sought to effect extreme chances in our form of govern-
ment was—being hopeless of carrying out their objects
if they proposed to do so openly and directly—to use
their own language, to obtain that in detail which they
were unable to procure in gross. (Hear.) That was the
mode of action which was adopted, and it was, he
feared, a policy which was all the more likely to prove
successful owing to the fact that, although the party
by which it was adopted was at present weak in com-
parison with others, yet it wielded a power in conse-
quence of the divisions subsisting between those other
parties far greater than it ought, and also owing to the
circumstance that a disposition had been exhibited among
the public men of various parties to bid for the support
of those for whom, as a general rule, they differed on
political matters by concurring in the various measures
which the party to which he referred deemed it its duty
to propose. (Hear.) From a tendency such as that he
should confess he believed great danger to the country
was likely to arise ; and it was his observation of the
existence of that tendency which rendered him so reluc-
tant to give his assent to the passing of the bill before
the house. But, in giving expression to those views, he
Must not be understood as being opposed to a deliberate
and well-considered revision of eur representative sys-
tem. Upon the contrary, he was of opinion that the
time which had elapsed since 1832 had rendered such a
revision desirable, if not necessary. He wished it, how-
ever, to be effected only after sober and calm deliberation.
(Hear.) Meantime he strongly objected to being asked
to take small steps year after year, which some people
were disposed to regard as being cf no consequence,
but which tended to throw additional power into the
hands of those by whom those radical changes to which
he had referred were sought to be effected, and which,
if prosecuted to a successful issue, would only serve to
stimulate their appetite and to lead them on the accom-
plishment of objects the attainment of which he could
not look upon otherwise than with dismay. (Hear.)
In any well considered measure of Parliamentary reform
which might be introduced it would, he felt convinced,
be found necessary that some changes should be effected
which were not altogether cf a popular character, and
which should have for their object the removal of defects
which were not those dwelt upon by ordinary popular
orators, but which at the same time must not be regarded
as the less substantial or important. Now, if any alte-
rations of that character should be found to be necessary,
it was, he thought, extremely expedient that their lord-
ships should, as a measure of common prudence, abstain
from making concessions on their part until they knew
what concessions would be made on the other side.
(Hear.) For these reasons be regretted extremely that
such a measure as that under their notice should be
allowed to pass without a single word of explanation
from her Majesty's Government. Upon a subject of
such transcendent importance they bad a right to de-
mand that they should not be led blindfolded along a
path of which they could not see the end. (Hear.) He
should, therefore, call upon noble lords opposite, who
concurred with him as to the necessity of exercising
great caution in dealing with a question so grave to
watch with duo care the conduct of their leaders.
If their leaders would only stand by them as they
ought, he saw no reason to suppose that it was not
possible that the entire question might not be fairly and
satisfactorily settled. If, however, those leaders should
pursue a d:ffereet course, and, trusting to the aid of
that party to which they bad hitherto acted, should at
the same time reek by dangerous concessions to earn the
support of those who differed widely from them in p
principles, then might the consequences which would
follow turn out to be formidable indeed. (Hear.) Now,
the expectation had been held out to the country that
in the course of next session a general measure of Par-
liamentary Reform would be introduced by her Majesty's
Government, and if they were prepared to act upon that
intimation he should beg to impress upon them the greet
importance of taking—before they even entered upon
the consideration of their proposed scheme—some steps
to collect, by means of able and trustworthy persons,
information bearing upon the subject. He believed t.hat
an immense amount of statistical and other information
might be obtained by persons fitted for the duty, and
would throw great light on the best means of improving
the constitution of the House of Commons. He hoped
that if Government intended to bring forward a measure
of reform next session they would, during the present
autumn, take steps to collect such information and place
it before Parliament. (Hear, hear.)
Lord EBURY confessed that he was a li.tle astonished
at some of the observations made by his noble friend,
but he shenld not now trouble their lordships by di?-
cussing the five points of the Charter, or other Urge
measures of reform which might ba desired by any
party in the country or in Parliament. He did not
agree with his noble friend in thinking this a very un-
important measure. It bad been his misfortune to
serve upon committees of the other House, appointed
to inquire into the r:ifdity of the property qualifications
of two members, and the proceedings of those commit-
tees were so tedious and protracted that he was con-
vinced the House of Commons would desire to be
relieved from duties of this disagreeable character.
Here, thee, was one not unimportant advantage which
would be conferred by a repeal of the law. That law,
however, as it stood, was but a delusion and a snare,
and on this ground, too, ho would support the present
measure. Nor did he tee why they ought to quarrel
with the noble earl at the head of the G vernment f.r
adopting this reform. Why should not the noble earl
be allowed to change his mind on this and on other
subj2cta, even though he might formerly have pro-
nounced decided opinions of a different kind ? He
(Lord Ebury) should give his vote for the Bill, and was
glad to understand that it was not likely to be opposed
by the Government. (Hear.)
The Duke of RUTLAND was afraid the noble lord
who had just sat down would have to "go the whsle
hog" on the five points of the Charter, and perhaps s ome-
thing more, if he allowed himself to be influenced by a
de sirs to relieve hon. members from the difficuLies to
which they were now exposed. He believed that no re-
spectable man was prevented from obtaining a seat in
the other house by the law as it stood, and he should,
therefore, enter his protest against the repeal of that

The Earl of DERBY (who was indistinctly her(l)
said,—lf I did not rise immediately after the noble earl
(Fortescue) it was not from the slightest wish to conceal
the opinion I have formed upon this subject, bat merely
because, not intending myself to offer any opposition to
the second reading of the bill, and understandirg that it
was the intention of the noble earl who spoke second
(Earl Grey) to offer some opposition to it, I was anxious
to hear what arguments be was prepared to submit. I
confess it has been satisfactory to me to find that my
opinions with regard to this bill aro in a great measure
shared by the noble earl, and that, instead of oppos-
ing the bill—as I expected he would do—he has con-
fined himself to malting certain observations, not. so
much with regard to the measure itself as to the pos-
sible cmseqeences which he thought might follow
its adoption I agree with the noble earl in the
opinion he expressed that the bill is in itself of very
trifling and immaterial importance, and I also agree with
him in the view which he takes of the danger of some
ulterior measures with which he sought to connect this
bill, but with which I confess I am not able to see any
connection. Whenever measures of a character dangerous
to the constitution may be proposed nothing will give
me, greater satisfaction than to find that in resisting
them—as I should resist them on whatever side cf the
House I might happen to sit—l have the conscientieus
support and assistance of the noble earl. I must con-
fees, however, that while the noble earl will find no one
more sincerely and conscientiously opposed than myself
to the democratic measures which he announced his
determination to resist, I see no necessity for the solemn
warning he gave to those with whom I have the honour
of acting to be cautious that their leaders do not place
them in a dangerous position. lam sure the Conserva-
tive party will be deeply grateful for the noble earl's ad-
vice, and I hope they will give it due weight. What-
ever importance they may attach to his recommendations
I am sure they w;11 attach great value to his promise of
assistance in resisting the progress of extreme measures.
The question ie, however, how far the "Bill now before
us is connected with the other measure to which
the noble earl has referred. The noble earl says that
the proposal to abolish the property qualification, is sup-
ported by a party who will demand a redistribution of
electoral districts, the vote by hallo`, the shortening,of
the duration of Parliaments, and a very large extension
-of the suffrage, all of which, as I understood, the noble
earl is determined to oppose.
Earl GREY was understood to say that what be had
stated wee, that these proposal', considered as a whole,
iudtie tobuoi ud
t any compensating measures on the other '
amount to a revolution, and so they would.
(" Hear," and a laugh.)
The Earl of teßey Th
in the opinion of en, I want to know how far,
the noble
the measure is revplu-
tionary. The noble earl b a
l a esatlid'that the bill is utterly
unimportant and immaterial. I
must protest, then,
Against his coupling his objectlonsto this b 11 isith his
objections to other measures, which, h
taken
altogether and unaccompanied by any he says,
ma,
would be equivalent to a revolution. Does it follow atill
be-
cause the House of Commons aro prepared to sanction
this measure that they are also prepared to sanction the
other measures to which the noble-.earl has referred!
The noble earl has alluded to Secret, voting; but
the
same House of Commons which regards the bill now
before us as a perfectly safe and immaterial measure
was not prepared to give its sanction to what
the noble earl regarded as a revolutionary element
—namely, the dangerous measure of vote by ballot, for