The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-04 00:00:00

E►VENING,.

his council ant obt,tin their opinions in- writing. He VA
zn,t to act at a distance ; he wss not tci'ex.irci§e any des-
potic powers, and upon any Matter of great. importance he
would ha,e tlae advi, e of hie colleagues in the Callinet.
Probsbly, however, in the majority of cases he would con-
sult with his council and hear what their opinion was.
But whether he had council or whether, as proposed by
some, ho should simply be assisted by an under-secretary,
he would certa'nly not despise the opinion of "Old
Indians ;" on the contrary, he would doubtless deem it
his duty to consult with men of knowledge and experience.
At the present moment, however the real question before
the Committee was whether the Minister should be so
controlled by his Council as to lose all responsibility. The
amendment of the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets
seemed to answer that question in the affirmative, and
therefore the Committee ought to reject it. (tear,
hear.)

M. GLADSTON I?, said he understood resolutions of
this kind were to be considered as precise in the convey-
ance of ideas as if they were in the discussion of a
He considered it was essenjally necessary that the duties
of a Secretary of State should be clearly defined, and if he
was to be a president of a council it was right ho should be
named so in the resolution. They were not called upon
to decide his exact functions, but the resolution put a ne-
gative on all separate power in the government of India,
and he thought it was desirable for the house to consider
and decide the question now, rather than when the bill
came before them IT consideration, although, as the right
hon. member for Sheffield had said, it would be a great
evil to have a council composed of men of experience.
(Hear, hear.) The council perhaps would have one pecu-
liarity, it would show that a parliament of " old Indians"
was a sufficient practicable body to expose the pedantry
and show the ignorance of old members of P .rliament en
Indian affairs. (Laughter.) It was desirable to know if
the aouucil was to be merely a council of reference, or if
they were to take a prominent part in the administration.
The amendment was in accordance with the remark of the
noble lord the member for King's Lynn. viz , that the
busine4s in connection with the government of India should
be transacted by a minister in council, who were to be cog-
nizable of the proceedings. To that extent he should vote
for the amendment, which was in accordance with the
views expressed by the leaders of her Majesty's Govern-
ment.

Mr. WHITE, as an old Indian, ridiculed the idea of the
responsibility of a Secretary of State, and protested against
such powers beingentrusted to one individual. Responsi-
bility be read as accountability, or answerability— (laugh-
ter)—but if auy great calamity occurred in India under
the new rule, who would dare to impeach such a Ministei?
Sir C. WOOD (amidst loud cries of "divide") said it
was impossible fur any man to conduct the government of
India, without bAng assisted by a council of men of ex-
p?rience. The resolution did not state the extent of th.-
authority, and that was a question that could be better
considered when the next resolution was before the house.
(Cries of :4 Divide.").

Mr. AYRTON said that by the amendment the govern-
ment of Indc aoald not be vested in an ordinary Secre-
tary of State but in a Minister of the Crown, who must
consult his Council before he acted, although he could act
without them; and thus, so far from diminishing his re-
sponsibility to Parliament, would increase it, because he
would be obliged by the pressure of an intelligent council
to give and to record his reasons. _
_ _

Air. MANGLES (who was greeted with loud cries of
"Oh") said a question so important had been raised by
the noble lord (J. Russell) that he hoped the house would
allow him to correct a historical mistake into which the
noble lord had fallen The noble lord had spoken of the
council of Warren Hastings as having been the first ever
appointed ; but the fact was that all the governors always
bad councils. The noble lord also said that the council
crippled the power of Warren Hastings, and so it did in
his time ; but at a later date powers were given to the
Governor-General which enabled him to overrule his coun-
cil, and to act on his own responsibility. Warren Hast-
ings had not that power, and so was crippled. He should
propose that the Minister of the Crown should have that
power which Warren Hastings had not, so that he might
not be crippled by his council.

Colonel -gYKES inquired whether he was to under-
stand that any decision that was now come to did net
debar the house from considering the question of the power
of the council in reference to the Minister of State?
Mr. FITZROY said that the committee would not be
debarred from considering any question of the kind on a
subsequent resolution.
The committee then divided—
For the amendment
...... ICO
Against it
Majority ................ ........ --231
The result was hailed with laud cheers.
Mr. ELLICE moved that the Chairm tn report pro-
gress, and gave notice of his intention to move that a Pre-
sident in Council bo sub 3tituted for a Secretary of State.
it w
The CHANCELLOR
sof
ose theof EXCHEQUER thought
would to di the
manta on the second resoluption. remaining amend-
After a short discussion, the motion for reporting pro-
gress was agreed to.

CHANCERY AMENDMENT BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill, and,
after several clauses had been agreed to, the Chairman re-
ported progress.
FRANCHISE PRISONS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
PORTUMNA BRIDGE (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed,
JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this
bill,
Mr. WHITESIDE said the subject was under the con-
sideration of the Government. He was in consultation
with the Attorney-General for England, and hoped to be
able to introduce a bill applicable to both countries.
The bill was then read a second time on the understand-
ing that the committee was to be postponed.
CONFIRMATION OF EXECUTORS, &c., BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to bring in a
bill to amend the law rela'ing to the confirmation of exe-
cutors in Scotland, and to extend over all parts of the
United Kingdom the effect of each confirmation, and of
grants of Probate and administration.
DEBTORS AND CREDITORS.
Mr. HEADLA.M obtained leave to bring in a bill to an-
thori.e and carry into execution the voluntary assignments
of debtors for the benefit of their creditors.

The house then adjourned at 10 minutes to 1.

LAST NTGFIT'S BUDGET DEBATE.

if the unhappy financiers wish to pronounce
funeral orations over ingenious Sinking Funds,
patriotic taxes, or self-imposed economies, we ought
not to grudge them that small consolation. But
That
what is to be done ? is the question. If a
man will exceed his inc or meddle his affairs,
and if calamity aggravates consequences of ill
thrift, there is nothing to be done but to make
motters straight and begin again.
It is a fatal bat
very common error to persevere when the game is
up, and to pursue the course which was once the
best, and is so no more.
sent Chancellor of the The position Of the pre-
Exchequer is that of some
professional accountant called in to make an im-
mediate settlement of embarrassed affairs. We
have no reason to believe that Sir G. Lewis would
have done worse,
such rse,or that our finances were in a
state to interposition.demand But with war
after war,r,
witwithth
with fresh
necessity of more
costly armaments, fresh demanis for civil pur-
poses, and withanew cabinet every other year, no
of the
Chancellor_finance
Exchequer can note hope to carry
out any echemeonence to last longer than a year,
What, then,
is tuteither lay on newhfie done in that year ? He must
taxeste
or continue existing debts.
The Chancellor of Exchequer proposes to lay
on two taxes which
inequanhave the simple effect of
destroying an
Ire-
land and a particular y between England and 'exemption affecting bankers.
As there does not appearpaf to be much difference of
opinion its to this
.the financial scheme, we
may pass it. There remains a real bone of conten-
tion in the question whether to keep up the income-
taxNo onteh
or the debt. ventures absolutely or
unreservedly to propose
, e former course. On
this point Sir G. Lewis Mr. Gladstone, Mr. T.
Baring, Mr. Bright, Mr.. Cardwell, and the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer are all agreed. They have
not the audacity or
atnhyeheartlessness to tell the
nation, of er so m
promises to the contrary,
that it must pay 7d. in the
dpound income-tax for a
few years longer till all
meet again. If there
were any statesman or anymtatty in the house who
tendered this council it be worth while to
consider it ; but there is nor, and the question is
settled without us. Thus great engine of
financial reform is doomed for e'''
alternative,ver.
Of course, there is another
reduce
eich is
conceivable, but no more. We
too, as on the onr
expenditure. On this point,
income-
tax, it may be said that there is a universal agree-
ment. Whatever is expressed, there is a uuani-
mous feeling that this is not a time for retrench-
ment, and that no impression can be made on the
esimates of the year. They Who
usually talk
most of economy assume this as a disagreeable
necessity, and as if the less said about it the better.
So we are driven back to the choice eetwe
en new
taxes and c erinued debt. As to new taxes,
proposes more than has been done. Nobody 1, no one
adds
it
to the Budget already before the house • end
certainly is not cur place to supply the deficiency,
So at length, by an exhaustion of all our Ways and
Meaus, we come to these much eanvaseed'it m
—the million and a half that were to have be ,n
paid to the war sinking fund, and the two millionsi
of Exchequer-bonds that were to have been
re-
deemed. Are these operations to be suspended,
or are we to perform th, in by borrowing in another
form t In fact, nobody proposes to do so, Sever
ai
speakers list night, as on previous occasions, ex-
pressed their disgust at having to give
up these
little schemes. People do not like to give pet
up a long
cherished scheme of saving. But, disgusting as it
may be to abandon or suspend these two processes
of financial mot ality, no one really and honestly
advises us to persist in them. No one will take
that responsibility. It comes to this, then, that t
the general m.o. tification of the house, but yet
with
. ,e
,
its universal consent, it is found necessary to Con-
tinue about three millions and a half of indebted-
ness for one more year at least, with no small
probability of having to do more in this way next
year, and perhaps the year after.—Times.

A SLIGHT MISTAKE.—It would appear that bailiffs,
although gen erallylooked upon as hard-hearted wretches,
are susceptible of the tender passion. A county court
bailiff in East Yorkshire was sent to distrain the goods
and chattels of an unfortunate family, but found neither
goods nor chattels in the house. He, therefore, en_
dorsed on the back of the warrant, " No girls to love."
This document coming into the hands of his employer,
not a little puzzled him. By some defect in the worthy
functionary's caligraphy, the above reading arose. The
sentence on the back of the summons was iutooded to be,
!‘ No goods to levy."

!LIA MENTA Y 1.1117.18t0N.

T1015.•E Ole COMMONS—MAY 3.
GOVERNMENT 0 14' -INDIA:
Question proposed, ' That for this purpose it is expedient
to provide that her Majesty, by one of her principal
Secretaries of State, shall have and perform all the
• powers and duties relating to the government and re-
' venues of India which are or may now be exercised and
performed by Cue East India Company, or by the Court
of Directors or Court of Proprietors of the said Com-
pany, either alone or with the approbation of the Com-
missioners for the Affairs of India : Amendment pro-
posed, to leave out' from the first word " that" to the
end of the question, in order to add the words " in order
to ensara the administration of such government with
due care, caution, and efficiency, all the powers and
duties now vested in the East India Company, the Court
of Directors or the Court of Proprietors of the said
Company, either alone or with the approbation of the
Commissioners for the Affairs of India, shall be exer-
cised and performed by a Minister of the Crown in
Council," instead thereof. Question put, "That the
words ` for this purpose it is expedient to provide that
her Majesty' stand part of the question." The committee
divided—Ayes, 351; Noes, 109.
AYES-351.
Adeane, H. Fitzgerald, W. R. S. Montgomery, Sir G.
Agnew, Sir A. Fitzgerald, J. Morgan, O.
Akroyd, E. Fitzwilliam, G. Mowbray, J. R.
Alexander, J. Foley, J. H. Naas, Lord
Annesley, Hon. Hugh Foijambe, Francis Napier, Sir C.
Archdall, Capt. M. Forde, Colonel Neeld, John
Ashley, Lord Forester, Col. Newark, Viscount
Atherton, W. Forster, Sir Geo. Neel, G.
Bagwell, John Foster, W. 0. North, Col. J.
Bailey, C. Fortescue, Hon. F. North, F.
Bodine, H. Franklyn, G. Ogilvy, Sir J.
Baines, Rt. Hon. M. Frazer, Sir W. Ossuiston, Lord
Baring, H. Freestun, Colonel Packe, C.
daring, T. G. Gall wey, Sir W. Paget, C.
tarnard, Thomas Gard, R. Paget, Lord C.
sernard, T. Garnett, William Pakenham, Colonel
itatiurst, A. A. Gavin, Major Pakington, Sir J.
Beach, W. Gilpin, Col. H. Palk, L.
Bective, Earl Glyn, G. • Palmer, R.
Beecroft, G. Goderich, Viscount Palmerston, Viscount
Bennet, Capt. P. Greaves, E. Paull, Henry
;entinck, G. Greenall, Gilbert Pease, Henry
Berkeley, F. Greenwood, John Peel, Gen. •
Bake, J. Greer, Samuel Pennant, Col. E.
Bolder°, Col. H. G. Gray, Captain Perry, Sir E.
Souverie, Hon. E. P. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir G. Pevensey, Viscount
Bovill, W. Grey, R. Pilkington, J.
lowyer. G. Griffith, C. Potter, Sir J.
Boyd, J. Grogan. Edward Powell, Francis
3ramley-Moore, J. Grosvenor, Earl Pritchard, J.
tira.mston, T. W Gunton, Brampton Proby, G.
Brand, Hon. H. Hall, Sir Benjamin Pugh, D.
Bridges, Sir B. Hall, General John Puller, Christopher
rocklehurst, J. Hamilton, G. A. Ramsden, Sir J.
drowns, Lord John Hamilton, Capt. Rebow, J.
Bruce, [I. A. Handley, H. Repton, G.
ruen, H. Hankey, T. Ricardo, 0.
Butler, sir J. Hardy, G. Richardson, J.
toiler, J. W. Harris, J. D. Robartes, T.
Banbury, W. B. Hassard, Michael Robertson, P.
turghley, Lord Hatchet!, John Roebuck, J. A.
Burrell, Sir C Hay, Lord John Rushout, Capt. G.
Sutt, I. Hayes, Sir E. Russell, Lord J.
duato 1, Sir E. N. Ileadlani, T. Russell, A.
3aird, J. Heathcote, G. Rust, James
Cairns, 11. Henley, J. Sandon, Viscount
'alcott, M. Holford, R. Sctater, George
Campbell, R. Hopwood, John Scott, Major
Cardwell, E Hornby, W. Scrope, G.
Carnac, Sir J. R. Horsfall, 'l'. ' Seymer, IL
Cartwright, 11. Horsman, E. Shelley, Sir J.
Cavendish, W. Howard, C. Shirley, E.
Cavendish, G. C. Howard, Lerd E. Slaney, R.
!cell, Lord .11. Hudson, G. Smith, V.
ffiarlessvorth,..T. C. D. Hume, W. Smith, Sir F.
atild, Smith Hutt, W. Smyth, Col.
Christy, Samuel Ingestre, Viscount S mallet t, A.
Clatk, J. Inglis, John Somerset, Colonel
Clay, James Jermyn, Rt. Hn. Ealr Somerville, Sir W.
Clive, George Jervoise, Sir J. Spooner, R.
Clive, R. Johnstone, H. B. Stanhope, J.
Close, H. Johnstone, Hope Stanley, Lord
Cobbold, J. CI Jolliffe, H. Stapleton, John
Codrington, Gen. Kelly, Sir F. Stephenson, Robert
Cole, 11. A. Kendall, N. Stirling, W.
'oilier, R. P. Kerrison, Sir E. Steuart, A.
Collins, T. Kershaw, J. Stewart, Sir M.
Coningham, W. King, J. Sturt, H.
Conolly, T. King, Edward Sturt, C.
Cowper, W. F. Kinglake, A. Sullivan. Michael
Corry, H. T. L. Kinglake, J. Thornhill, W.
Cowan, C. Kingscote, Capt. R. Tite, W.
Cox, W. Kinnaird, A. Tollemache, F.
Cranford, E. 11. 3. Kirk, W. Tollemache J.
:Iross, R. A. Knatchbull, W. Tottenham, C.
Curzon, Viscount Knatchbull-Nuguessen Trefusis, C.
Dalkeith, Earl , Knight, F. Trelawny, Sir J.
Davey, R. Knox, Col. B. W. Trollope, Sir J.
, Davison, R. Labouctlere,lit.Hon.H Truman, C.
Deedes, William Langton, W. G. Turner, J. A.
, )eniaon. W. H. Langton, TI. G. Vance, John
Dent, John Laslett, W. Vansittart, G.
De Vere, S. E. Lennox, Lord 11. G. Vansittart, W.
Devereux, J. Leslie, C. P. Verner, Sir W.
Disraeli, B. Levinge, Sir R. Villiers, C.
Dobbs, W. C. Lewis, Sir G. C. Vivian, H. H.
Du Cane, C. Lindsay, W. Waddington, H.
Duff, AL Lisburne, Earl Walcott, Admiral.
Duff, L. Locke. J. Walpole. S.
Duke, Sir J. Lopes, Sir Ai: Walsh, Sir J.
Dunbar, Sir W. Lovaine. Lord Warn, John
Duncan, Viscount Lowe, R. Warren, S.
Duncombe, A. Lowther, Col. H. C. Welby, W.
Duncombe, Hon.W. E Lowther, Capt. Western, S.
oundas, G. Luce, T. Westilead, Joshua
Dunkellin, Lord Lygon, Hon.F. Whitbread, S.
Dunne. M. Lytton, Sir E. Whiteside, J.
Du Pre, C. Mscartney, George Wickham, H.
Dutton, Hon. R. U. MacEvoy, E. Williams, B.
Edwards, Henry Mackie, J. Williams, W.
Egerton, Sir P. Mackinnon, W. Williams, Sir W.
Egerton, W. M'Clintock, John Willson, A.
Egerton, Edw. C Maguire, J. F. Wilson, J.
Elton, Sir A. H. Matins, Richard Wingfield, R.
Emlyn, Viscount Manners, Lord J. Winnington, Sir T.
Ennis, John March, Earl of Wise, J.
Esmond e, J. Marshall, William Wood, Sir C.
Estcourt, T. Martin, C. Woodd, B.
Evans, T. W. Massey, W. Woods, Henry
Ewart, W. Matheson,Sir J. Wortley, Major
Ewart, J. Maxwell, J. Wyndham, General
Fagan, W. Mellor, John Wynne, J. A.
Farnham, E. Miles, W. Wynne, W.
ii'arquhar, Sir M. Miller, Taverner Yorke, E.
Feilowes, E. Miller, ',Warne Young, I.
Fenwick, 11. Mills, T. T k.'LLEILI.
Ferguson, Colonel Moffat, G. Jolliffe, Sir W.
Ferguson, Sir Robert Monsell, W. Taylor, Colonel
NOES-100.
Adair, H. Fox, W. J. Pinney, Cel.
Aear-Ellis, Hon. L. G. Gifford, Earl of Rawlicson, Sir H.
Baeshaw, Robert Gladstone, W. Ridley, George
Baring, A. Greene, John Roupell, W.
Baring, Sir F. Gregory, W. Schneider, Ilenry
Baring, T. Grenfell, Charles W. Scott, F.
Bass, M. Greville, Colonel F. Shafto, R.
Baxter, W. Gurney, I. H. Sheridan, H. B.
Bland, L. H. Hanbury, , Robert Smith, J. A.
B,mham-Carter, J. Harlington, Marquis Smitl,,
A H.
Beuverie, Hon. P. Heathcoate, Sir W.Smith,
Briscoe, John Holland, E. Steel, John
Bruce, Major Hope, Alexander Stuart, Colonel
Buchanan, Walter Hotham, Lord Sykes, Colonel
Buxton, C. Ingham, R. Talbot, C.
Byng, G. H. C. Johnstone, Sir J.
Calcraft, J. Knightley, R.
Clinton, Lord R. Langston, J. 11.
Cobbett, J. M. Liddell, 11. G. Thompson,irT Taylor,aaTempest,nnce, redBo H
r.L i Ord A. V .
H.
General
Colebrooke, Sir E. Lock.. Joa
Crawford, U. W. Lockhart, A. E. Verney, Sir H.
Dalglish, R. Macarthy, Alex. Waldron, Laurence
Darner, L. D. Mangles, R. D. Watkins, Col.
Wegael
Deasy, R. Mangles, C.
Whatmin, T.
an, J.
Dill wyn, L. L. Marjoribanks, D.
W
Dunlop, A. Melgund, Lord White, Jam es
East, Sir J. Milnes, R. White, Henry
,
Ebrington, Viscount Morris, D.
Willyamsoughb E.
Ellice, E. Newdegate, C. Willoughby, y, J.
Ellice, E. Nicoll, D. Wood, W.
Elliott, J. E. Nisbet, It. P.
TELLERS.
Elphinstone, Sir J. O'Brien, P.
Ewing, Crum O'Donoghoe. The .
Ayrton, A.
Fitz william, C. Paxton, Sir J
Willoughby, Sir 11.
Fortescue, C. S. Philips, It.

FATAL STEAM-SHIP COLLISION AND
SINKING OF BOTH MESS 'LS.

A fearful collision with a serious loss of human
life was reported yesterday at Lloyd's by their
agent at Milford Haven.
The catastrophe appears to have occurred between
the hours of 11 and 12, between Wicklow-head and
the Kish light ship on the Irish coast. The Bri-
gand, screw steamer, from Bristol and Swansea,
with her ordinary complement of passengers, and a
cargo of general merchandise, was pursuing her
way up the St. George's Channel for Belfast and
the Clyde, when she came in contact with the
William Campbell, Capt. Sivell, master, bound to
Trinidad from Greenock. Such was the force with
which the vessels came together that both of them
foundered in comparatively a very short period.
Capt. Sivell, of the William Campbell, and six of
his crew are supposed to have perished, and 21 of
the crew and passengers of the steamer are missing,
and serious apprehensions are entertained fur their
safety.
The survivors of bith vessels, numbering in all
19, were picked up by the Espoir, from Ostend for
Liverpool, which safely landed them at Milford
Haven, on Sunday morning.
Amongst those rescued by the Espoir was Wm.
William, a boatswain of the schooner George, Capt.
Cross, of London, who was the only survivor of his
ship, which went down on the morning of Friday
last, 27 miles east of the Tuskar Light. The vessel
was bound to the river Niger from Liverpool, and
suddenlycapsised and disappeared, Williams saving
his life by clinging to a piece of wreck, on which he
was found floating, and picked up by the Brigand,
steamer, a few hours before the collision with the
William Campbell.
The schooner George sailed from Liverpool on
the same day. She was laden with a valuable cargo
which was insured.