The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-17 00:00:00

TRH - SUN, LO ND O.&

f facilities of communication which now existed between
`hie country and India, HO would therefore keep the
e• -lament of India out of Parliament as far as possible.
gove. hear.) But this measure would really diminish
(Flear, w 'lenity of the Indian Minister, because he
the reepon=h teen by the existence and by the control of
would be fett'.. - Secretary of Sato was outvoted in the
Council on some quern, • ,
his council. If the
he would, in stating the pee- .
indicate to his friends that theme
plan, it 'en or plan of Indian government,
es
winasthoevb_ House of Commons,
cil. (Hear, hear.) The Council .
was not his—that h mit he was moving tae
indicate is the Ceun-
their cognisance,
That might abject to the Secre•
tary of State takieg matters out of ,
That bad been said to him when at the Beard of Con-
•+l very frequently ; and what was his answer --e" I
oahstttttnk so ; you are quite wrong." (Laughter.) There
was civility
ten both sides, and there was an end of
_it.
But that would nus.& be the case now with t th. esn
tehgeelietlet
men, who had their friel-ndll tile tPhairslibrilepnhltith it would
and everywhere. (Hear.) et
eehich bad been con-
create that form of governmeo. - mean empeemea
demned by all authorities on governmee.
of the
in irnperio. (Hear, hear.) Though the naemtee—
' me
Council themselves might nut it in Parliament, there
was nothing to prevent their sons, or sonsen-law, or
fathers-in-law from doing so. (A. laugh.) For the 15 who
could not sit there might be 30 nearly connected with
them who could sit in Parliament, and could do the
work better than themselves. The 'more they consi-
dered this scheme the less likely did it appear to hold
together.
He did not say that he was sure it would
fail. He did not want itto fail. It wasadangerons thing
to prophesy about what was to happen to-morrow or
at home. It was a safer course to predict what was to
happen in 100 years, or in Armenia or some distant part
of the world. (A. laugh.) All he said was that if the
measure did succeed, it would succeed against the ex-
perience of all the men he bad ever heard talk on the
subject, against the experience of the country, and
against their lordships' experience with reference to other
matters. It was said, " Would you trust one man with
the Government of 180 millions of people ?" Why,
they trusted the noble earl (Derby) with the Govern-
ment of a great many more than 180 millions ; one man
was responsible for the government of the whole empire.
(Hear, hear.) He selected his Cabinet on that prin-
ciple ; ao would the Secretary of State for India. If
there was anything which the Prime Minister could not
settle offhand the Cabinet would be assembled. He
(Lord Broughton) would rather trust one intelligent,
honest man with the management of affairs with which
he had been previously properly acquainted, than he
would trust half-a-dozen men. The Secretary of Sate
wou'd have no difficulty in getting a staff about him.
He might easily get a sufficient number to advise and
assist, not to thwart him, but to give opinions ; in this
way, if a proper choice were made of the secretary, the
government cf India would be conducted as well as
human prudence could devise. (Hear, hear.) The
notion of the necessity of a Council had arisen from the
functions of the old Court of Directors, Did their lord-
ships think the despatches were written by the Court of
Directors or any of them ? When he was at the Beard
of Control they always recognised certain hands, and
knew, or thought they knew, who wrote each of the
despatches, as well as if they had stood behind the gen-
tleman's chair while he was doisg it. It was one of the
great merits of the Court of Directors which ought to be
recorded and never forgotten, that they chose good sew
vents and wise servants. (Hear, hear.) Did their lord-
ships ever know a foolish person choose wise servants ?
Never. The servants of the court were as good men as
were ever found for the performance of their function?,
and those men were available now. Mr. John Mill
was alive—(hear, hear)—so wet e many others ;
he mentioned Mr. Mill b manse he was a well-
known and distinguished man. (Hear.) There were
others at the Board of C antrol whose assistance would
be most valuable. Upon great questions of peace or war,
the Secretary ( f State would of course summon his
Cabinet, and take their opinions and advice. He would
ask bow matters were conducted at the Board of Ad-
miralty ? He had been told that the experiment had
been tried of conducting all the business by a board in-
stead of by the first lord ; but when they met they fell
asleep. Sometimes one man did not agree with the first
lord, and threatened to talk him out. (Laughter.) There
was such a thing, he beieved, as t':e Treasury Beard ;
he should like to know how often that board met. They
might do so oceesi nally ; but he was told that it was
not a real, consultative, deliberative board. If the
Treasury did not require a board, why should the &ere-
tary of India require one? Surely, if anybody needed
others to share his responsibility, the master of the
Britisn dominions for the time being, the F rat L ird of
the Treasury, must do so. It was certain that the S_cre-
tary of Stan for India never would derive from such a
council as the bill proposed any 1 ght or knowledge that
GOVERNMENT OF-INDIA BILL. he could net get from otheri, without the embarrassment
The house went into committee on this bill. of a deliberative come 1. lle entreated the noble earl
On clause seven, which refers to the constitution of (Darby) to reconsider this question, if there was any
the Ceuncil, chance of doing so. It was perpetuating the worst part
Lord BROUGH roiv said that this chose was of the of the old East India Company. The proposed council
essence of the bil:. He rejoiced at the abolition cf the would be like the pheeeix, that
East India C mipany, and thouelit that the proposition "Scared and shined, another and the same."
to have a single Minister to adenieist r the government The Earl of DERBY raid that the noble lord had
of India would be a good siuleititute f.r the present aye- made a very amusing speech, and if it had been made on
tem. He codscted from the speech of his noble friend
the second reading of the hill no one would have said a
last night, that I• great cha,-tge had taken place in his
word against it. •
opinion, in reference io the appointment of a Ceuecii,
and that he might mortify this clause il'he had to pro 1,;,e Lori B ROUG tITON—This clau3e is ab out the con iscil?
the scheme again to the house. Tl,e present form of Too Earl of DE tt WI —li ; t they were now discus ,sing
home Government was no doubt liable to eta miens of the bill clams by ciente, and it was contrary t, all order,
which every man must he aware, on the ground of delay, up in a clause which constituted the council, to discuss
and differences of opinion, between the authorities of everything relatirg to that coon il. This ..7as entirely bc-
Cannon-row and Leadenhall-street. The -huts trey fi ed et le she geeetion, which was whether a council should he
at each other, however, were sped from a distance, and established for the advice and assistance of the Secretary
were cooled by tittle. But when this new Council was of State. The noble lord had raid that because the Tree-
formed what would be the degree of antagoni-m --and sury Board and the Board of Admiralty did not meet as
antagonism there must be if the Council was to be of any boarde, there was no reason why the Secretary of
good.—when they met under the same roof and at the State for India should have a Council to assist him. Bet
same bosrd, and had to fire across the table ? (Laughter ) the Council proposed was upon a totally different fo Ming
Unless some means could be devised for making this from any i f the boards ref mred to. The Secretary of
Council, he would not eay a little more peaceable, but State would allot the business among the diligent mern-
at all events a little more practical, their lordships should , ben io such a manner as he thought most convenient ler
not pass this &Loge. He was sure of that. He was op- the public service. Olean hear.) Special power was
posed to acy Council at all ; but if he were for a Council given to the Secretary of State to divide the Council into
it would not be for this Council, which was constructed committees for the despateli of business, and to obtain Ihe
in a manner that was cal.:Mated to ensure the greatest asnimance and advice of the moetcempotent persons. Tee
quantify of strife and difference of opinion. (Hear.) , questions of how the Council was to be constituted, what
Some of the members were to be East Indian servant,— should be its duties, and so on, would be discussed on the
some were to be chosen by the Crown, and some not. different clauses; but the question raised by the noble lord
Be did not see hew the objection of the noble earl oppe- was—,hould the Secretary of State have a C iuncil at
site (Eilenborouga) was to be got rid of, when it pleased all. It was true this was a main principle of the hill ; and
G.od to remove any of the members, and the Council had if upon one question more than another there had been
to be refreshed. The Secretary of State wool I probably a universal agreement in both houses, it was this—that
be a parson who entertained some general principles of it was expedient that the Minister for India shoull be as-
governeeent, such principles as were likely to be enter- si-ted by suds a Council to a certain degree.. The bill of
twined by a parson reared amongst the institutions of this the late Government proposed a Council c f eight mem-
country. But when he proposed some scheme to the bare, to serve for 10 years. By the bill introduced when
council for the government of India, the member of the Lord Elieuborotigh was at the Board of Control ihe Coon-
Council acquainted with Bengal would Fay, "This won't cil was to consist of 18 members ; they would of coarse
do at all for Bengal ; I know more about Bengal than have divided their duties. But that the Secretary of State
you." The members who were acquainted with Maras fur India should have the means of resorting, not unoffi-
and Bombay would say the same, and there would be ciaily but officially, to persons of great experience and
the Secretary of State alone in the midst of these gen- knowledge on all subjects connected with India was a
tlemen, every one of whom would be better accpeinted principle that had been adopted and laid down byalrnost
with India than himself. (Hear, hear.) Those who were. a'l men cf any eminence who had been called on to die-
acquainted with the system of Indian government meet cues the question. lie wholly denied that this Council
be aware that the great vice of Indian servants was that was a recurrence, or anything like a recurrence, to the
of making what were called minutes—minutes which it double Government which had existed under the former
took hours to read and days to write. (Laughter.) Sup- system. The evil of that double Government was this—
pose a member of the Council to be in a minority, he that there were two separate ace! entirely distiect an ho-
would record Lie objections in a minute. He would not rities, each of which expre sad an independent opinion
be satisfied, and would proceed thus. He would seek out —that these authorities were frequently brought into
dome member of Parliament and say, "lam in a minim conflict or celasiou—and that it required voluminous
eater in the Council on such a question ; most good men correspondence and a great deal of time to settle their
Sis—(laughter)—the case is a good one ; I can kelp you differences and obtain their entire concurrence ant con-
if you like to make a speech. I
(Laughter.) I wrote a sent. Here there wasnosucli doable Government,no such
Enhance of my objections ; Mr. So-and-so says it is one of condict of authorities,. The Council was not an authority
the cleverest he ever reed." (Laughter.) Tae member adverse to or competing with the Secretary of State. Its '
was ambitious—most members used to be, he did not duties were precise and limited ; they were limited, ex-
know if they were now—(laughter)—and he replied, cept in particular cases, to giving advice and opinion to
e. Will you let me have it." The member of Council says the Secretary of State ; and that advice and opinion he
"No, I cannot ; but it is a clever document, take my was at liberty to adopt or reject as he thought fit. There
*word for it ; ask in your place for a copy.'' Toe Govern- was nothing to fetter or diminish in the slightest degree
meet of the day would be obliged to say, "We cannot the responsibility which he owed to Parliament. He
refuse this minute. Under a Parliamentary Government agreed with the noble lord that it was desirable in prac-
the opinions of the minority should be known at least, if tice that the aff sire of ladia should, as far as patih,e,
cot acted upon." The document was produced, it was be withdra en from the weekly and daily discussion in
read, it was cl ver ; it was submitted to Sir J. Graham, Parliament ; and the most probable way of doing that
or some of those clever fellows in the house— (laughter) was to surround the Secretary of State with a body of
—and be was asked what was to be done, for the case persons of eminence and distinction, of knowledge and
was a hard one. He said, " Make a motion, and we will experience, to whom with regard to every question he
see what we can do." A meeting of some 20 members had it in his power to apply, not for authority, but for
took place in some house or other—it might be the advice and opinion ; and that advice and opinion would
Crown and Anchor ; the posts were assigned to each— be given with a perfect knowledge of the subject. The
"you are to bring forward this point, you this, and so principle of council or no council was all that was in- ,
on. Do not teatime the Governor-General, for he is my volved in this clause ; upon that principle rested the
-friend ; butahuse the S oretary of State ; he is an un- main provisions of the bill ; and he trusted that their
fair man, and he is not of our party ; abuse him." lordships would not reject a clause which had been
(Laughter.) He could assure their lordships he was not almost unanimously agreed be by the other holme, and
exaggerating what was a very possible case. He agreed a principle which had the sanction of every authority.
with the noble lord opposite that this might not occur The Duke of SOMERSET said they might properly
in the first Council. The first members would probably discuss the question of council or no council on the
meet with general approbation, anl things would go on clause now before the committee. He denied that the
. smoothly for a time ; but that would not continue—it scheme of a council had been approved by all parties. In
could not continue. Did any one ever find 15 men in a the other le ute there had been every
sort of opinion 39
room even at a party of pleasure who agreed altogether? to the constitution of the council—how trey were to be
(Laughter.) Ii out of the 15 there was one disagreeable app-tinted—how long they were to serve—and what
man he would spoil the whole party. (Laughter.) That should be their duties. (Hear.) It was proposed that
happened in matters of amusement. But what might be the council should meet weekly, or when summoned by
she consequence if, when matters of government, when the Secretary of State, though he believed the latter
the best interests of the country were depending on the power was now taken away. It was doubtful whether
result? What was vulgarly but well called an " ill•coedi- they would see any of the de patches that came from
boned" fellow got amongst the party.e(Elear.) The donee- India, and the Secretary of State might avoid having
luen" would probably be this. One member of the anything to do with them. He might give an order
-Council would say, "You cannot agree with me, I can- which might
_lead to ve. a_ r ; but to obtain money he must
,not agree with you; no one can agree with that fellow, go to his council, and how could he obtain money with-
iet us hand over the decision to the Secretary of State." out telling them what it was for ? (lle^ ) '
'That must be the only mode of settlement, nothing dividing the council into committees wool 111.,e' e r
thates u.l at c' of
would be done, (Hear, hear.) These inconveniences committee would be continually sending f-r information
c Ho oh•
were so entirely felt by the framers of this
of a
bill threspecting
they its own department, as they might be called
lad most judiciously deprived the
Councilpart of its powers, for they gave the Secretary of St:ta great ontoadvise at the next meeting of me_
council.
jetted to the provision which debarred the members cf
power to act without the Council in some cases, and by the Council from sitting in Parliament. Their mese u-
tile 25th clause they empowered him to act even against there might be desirable on those occasions er bee sOrne
That was wise and proper if independent the Council. (Hear, hear.)
member of the other house took up with
there was to lie a Council at allde. The effects of a bad great zeal the cause of some native prince. Sapp° e that
plan and a bad project might be got rid of by having no Sir Celia Campbell returned, as he hoped he would, and
project or plan at all, The great objection made to the made a statement as to the creanisation of tee Indian
existing western was what was called its double govern- arm, what weight would the members of the C-until—:t
truant. Now, there was go double government in the number of old men—have against such an a:1'1)01.ns, as
present system, unless a man riding on horseback, with that ? He thought it would no a great con vfm ieuci if
an old woman behind him, might be called a double they could get rid of this Conseil, and all the clau,e_:
government. (Laughter.) 2 connected with it. (Hear, hear ) The House of Corn-
The Earl of DERBY—Which vitae the
old woman . mons had passed the bill with tree idea that they were
making the Secretary et State responsible ; but when-
, Laughter.)
was no I How could there be divided management which was
Lord BROUGHTON—Not the noble earl, .certainly. ever he wanted money he was controlled by the Council.
(Laughter.) This so called double government
double government. But the double overnmena was the essence of the bill, without divided Fe' n bilit ?
brought back by this bill. One of theg great inconVe- The bill would work with much vigours"
''.Y
greater if all toe
niences t f the present system was said to be this, that clauses relating to the Co •
tined were struck out. He
Parliament could not interfer l ' would therefore move that this clause should be omitted '
of India as it could if there overnm ent
eas mach in the g . from the one
was a single responsili l©
Minister. Now, be thought that one of the °meat net- i The Ea-1 of ALBEMAItLE also objected
_to the
"Boger/ of the present system was that it ''' ' Council, especially to its cenetitun
prevented the t tonof what were called
perpetual introduction of Indian questions in Parliament. l " Old Indians." These were men who had al way,,
y
(Hear.) That was his decided opieion. They could not 1, in and out of Perliaeneut, declared that system wtoa lie'
govern India on these terms, especially with tbeincreased i pareation sc'lticle had c.xpl,3ded its rebellion, He did Let

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The.Lonu CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at 5 o'clock.
Lord BELPER presented petitions from Atheretone,
Sherborne, Darby, Glossop, Thropston, and Kirkby, in_
favour of the legalization of marriage with a deceased
wife's sister.
The Duke of RICHMOND ph,sel:Vel a petition
"from
places in Aberdeen, against the fasio:‘ of the colleges as
proposed in the Scotch Universities Bill,
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the Manch:Niter
South Junction and Altrincham Railway (No. 2) ; the
Warrington and Stockport Railway ; Limerick and
Caqtle Connell Railway bills were read a second time.
The Hesketh Marsh, North Yorkshire and Cleveland
Railway, Loudon and North-Western Railway (Addi-
tional Works). St. Leonard's (Shoreditch) Parish, and
Stockton and Middlesborough, and Yarra Water Bills,
were read a third time and passed.
THE EX-KING OF OUDE.
The Marquis of CLA.NRICARDE asked whether
the statement by the President of the Board of Control
in the House of Commons, that the ex-King of Otide
was now a prisoner in Fort William, and was about to
be brought to trial, was correctly stated.
Earl DERBY said the answer given in the other
house to the question was not altogether incorrectly re-
ported. The King of Oude, a prisoner of the East
India Company, was now confined at Calcut`a,
under suspicion of having promoted the revolt. Upon
the result of the investigation—which would be a more
correct term than criminal trial—as to how far he might
be implicated in the revolt, would depend the nature of
the measures to be adopted against him.
CHESTER AND HOLYHEAD RAILWAY.
This bill was read a third time after a few words from
Lord COLCHESTER, who said the three companies
bad Undertaken the contract for the conveyance of the
mails to Dublin for a term of 14 years, and Lord
BILDESDALZ who said he was not altogether satisfied that
the rights of the public bad been sufficiently protected
by this bill, but as the noble lord the Postmaqter-Gene-
ral bad moved the third reading he did not feel justified
in opposing the measure.
CONVOCATION.
Lord REDESDALE moved for copies of the Acts of
Convocation in the province of Canterbury at the session
of the 29th of June, 1855, and 6th of Feb., 1857, so far
as relates to any communication to be made to the
Convocation of York, or the President of the same, to-
gether with the replies to such communication', or
either of them. Also a copy of the Qleen's writ to the
Crchbishop of York, directing the assembling of the
onvocation of the province on the 10th of December
la.t.
The Bishop of RIPON said he had been appointed
by the prelates of the province of York to offer
some explanation on the subject to which the noble

- .
lord bad referred. He denied that any com-
munication had taken place between the prelates
of the two provinces between June, 1855, and Feb.,
1857. He had no objection also to the production of
the Qoeen's writ, but he was at a loss to con-
ceive what object there was in view in obtaining
its production. except that it was to raise the whole
question as to how far the Archbishop of York was jus-
tified in the cour;e he had persevered in with respect to.
the convocation at York.
The Bishop of LONDON said the noble lord de-
manded papers that did not and never had existed. In
the drawing up of the first part of the noble lord's mo •
tion, although he did not believe such to be his intention,
it appeared to cast a slur upon a right reverend prelate,
who was pursuing his lab•inrs in a strictly correct man-
ner, and who had not departed in the aightest from
numerous precedents which existed on the point.
After a few words from the Bishops of Oxford, Carlisle,
and Chichester,
Lord REDESDA.LE withdrew his motion.
REVISION OF THE LITURGY.

Lord EBURY presented a petition from the laity in
favour of a revi+ion of the Liturgy.
The Medical Practitioner 4 Bill was read a second time.
The Stipendiary MaglArates BLil was read a second
time.
Toe Copyhold Acts Amendment Bill was read a
second time.
The Titles to Land (Scotland) Bill, the Copyright of
Designs Bill, and the Four Courts (Dublin) Extension
BM were severally read a second time.
The New General Post-office (Edinburgh) Bill went
through committee.
The Militia Ballots Suspension Bill was read a second
time.