The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-11 00:00:00

tZheealannedb,lehalndredvtidbeenstley. bito?n. gentleman ; but why had he not himself acted upon
mindedbeen decor peretary f the Colonies to examine into the facts of the Sir F. SMITH agreed in what had fallen from the two
case, and 1. he trusted that he would no longer allow the last speakers. He thought it most desirable that each
tahnedn
he
iev
called s of N
on
nw
eeiovpelde:t
o remain under the great stigma which in regiment should have what might be called a home, and
he instanced the Marines as illustrating the advantage of
named
no •
said the hon. baronet had raised two that tysteni. Having himself served at Aldershott, he
NewßrLordßritishSTANLEY
ealZealand
nttTachheedtrostitsv.
as
the had always been of opinion that a Land Transport Corps
distinct ques • with regard to
educe
officers and in the of
teen of the
evidence given by Mr. Sewell before the New Zealand was. the only thing wanted there to complete the d
Loan Committee of last year. the hon. baronet could
that the
not be mgr© surprised questions,
Marines should be the favourite corps of the service. A
•ed than he was who first he pointed Col. BOLDER() said it wise. not remarkable
ont to his notice the apparent discrepancy between Mr.
Sewell's evidence and the facts as they appeared on the man who entered the service went on board ship for
official records of the local legislature of New Zealand. three or four years, and when he returned to England he
The house would remember that they were asked last had often 601. or 701. of pay to receive. He could then
year to give the imperial guarantee to a loan of half-a- purchase his discharge and commence some small busi-
million for purposes connected with the colony of New ness with 401. or fur the sleeping accommoda-
was there
their commissions b
to be guaranteed for one purpose, and 300,0001. for they seldom. got . efore.. they were 19,
Zealand. (Hear, hear.) It seemed that 200.0001. was tion at Woolwich, he remembered when he
\sill:oporllwseicdh tow ohuel d
be
nee of jointly occupy-
than otherwise. They I
whether in the event of Parliament being unwilling toused to mess toge-
sanctionlohg oneroomake the junior schelars
another. The question was raised before the committee and they rather preferred the practice
a guarantee for the whole amount, a guarantee t er and m
.fag them ; and they
Ir, had lived by themselves. (A laugh.)
of 200,0001., if offered, would be accepted by the legis- found. that their money would go farther than if they
lature of the colony. The question was put to 2..
r the obser
the legislature and distinctly negatived,Now it a -
Sewell, aud he replied that the question was raised in..
the gallantcolonel,For his a
p vations of own part he hoped
made as
peered by the records of the New Zealand legislature the alteration
g
that a resolution was passed directly contrary to the sooGnenas possible.
evidence he had just quoted. The resolution was in the . Esa that everythinewhich fell fro the
the Major‘VßsunEesYtedwaats
lrW c a j m
gallant genera ear . o ring ton would always meet
fallowing words :—" That in the event of the financial
the greatest attention; but -
the gallant general
scheme of the Government failing for raising the neces- with ,
sary loan of 500,0001.,.; that when there was so much
pressure upon
the loan of 200,0001. offered by must know .
service, they could not afford to be too
the Home Government for the liquidation of the New the recruiting
Before the
Zealand Company's debt shall be received on the terms particular.breaking out of the mutiny, the
in round
proposed, and the mode of payment shall stand over as British arremiyn
was
sda itself foarre numbersini elnst7B,ofoOestrolng, and
d
part of the general adjustment of the public require- there
w were
of infantry. At theg present momentvary'athhe
ments." Now here he paused to observe that that was 24 battalions..
total British force consisted of about 223,000 men ; so
the first part of the resolution ; but then there came an .
t had been necessary to raise d
addition to it : "It being an essential part of such ad- thet'during the past year
than 56,000 additional me
justment that the land, on being exonerated from its fewernowinthere were
ladia 23 regiments of cavalry and lO5 battalions
special liabilities, as well as from the New Zealand
heinfantry.lt had thus been
debt, in accordance with the resolution, shall be relieved of necessary to send out
prospectively as well as retrospectively from any other from the home establishinett 19 regiments of cavalry
up the deficiency
liability." Now there was no doubt that, on the face of and 81 battalions of infantry. To make
a ed they had formed two ne
it, that resolution purported to be an acceptance .by taondcrenet
of infantry ; and they
bwadregichentsof cavalry
the legislature of the colony, or at least by one branchraised 25 second
ba t one
They
had •
, moreover increased the strength
of it, of that very proposition which Mr. Sewell stated ta 1 _
of the cavalry gments from 469 te 660 men and that
that the legislature had refused to accede to, and on .
from 840 ' j
of the honourable baronet he of the infantry regiments to 950 men. The
hearing the statement number of men voted had not yet been raised ; but as
lost no time in applying to Mr. Sewell for an expla-
h d b enlisted • .
nation. The explanation was that the resolution di- 48,000 men a een in eight months, he saw
vided itself into two parts. The first part accepted the no reason to doubt that such would soon be the case.
proposition of a guarantee limited to 200,0001., which annual casualties were very heavy. Taking them
The
te d •
was moved, as he understood, by a member in opposi- at the ordinaryng pears, namely 12 per cent.,
tion. For some reason the members of the local govern- they would
ha during
req ,
inre aou 30 000(recru every year to
keep up the strengthb oft the ary. To this must be
ment did not think fit to meet the resolution by a direct
negative, but they met it by an amendment or addition, added another 20,000
ofmen still wanting to complete the
which neutralised the first part of the resolution, and military armaments the country ; and it would thus
appear that the total number of recruits that would be
rendered it totally unmeaning, and in that light, ap-
parently, the amendment was received by the local legis- needed during the year would be 50,000. (Hear,
lature. He did not find that it came before the 'Upper hear.) In the first irstance the standard had been
House, and it appeared to have been treated as—what lowered to 5 feet 3 inches, in order to provide troops for
in feet it was—a dead letter. The resolution was coupled India, but it had been •aised again to sft. 4in. With
with an impossible condition, and consequently amounted regard to the Commissariat and the Land Transport
to a virtual refusal. Dir. Sewell's statement that the Corps, nothing was more difficult to keep up in the time
offer had been distinctly negatived undoubtedly went of peace than establishments of this description ; but. he
further than the facts of the case warranted ; but when proposed to institute to inquiry into the subject. He
a witness was questioned and cro=s-questioned, and every would also take the other subjects which had been men-
word was taken down as it came from his mouth, he tioned into consideration. He wise very glad to say that
might, without intending it, fall into some inaccuracy of a plan had been suggested by which faith could be kept
statement—but Mr. Sewell contended that what he with the students at ehrshalton, without any expense to
stated was substantially the truth, and that no deception the country. The aconamodation for those at Wool Niel
was practised upon the committee, and if the guarantee should receiveattentan ; but he would remind the house
had been limited to the smaller sum of 200,0001. it would that at the time he- cane into office the determination
not have been accepted by the local legislature. So come to was that they should be removed to Sandhurst.
much for the case of Mr. Sewell, and now with regard Col. NORTH conk not help expressing the regret he
to the case of Mr. Mantell and the purchase which he felt that 16 militia reginents should have been disbanded
had made of lands from the natives. Mr. Mantell was ata moment when the army was 20,000 men under the
appointed a commissioner for the purchase from the na- strength voted by Peelement. Reduction and then in-
tives of lands in the settlements of Canterbury and Ott go. crease of the army used an immense expense to the
He believed that the amount Mr. Mantell purchased was country, and was newt injurious to the service.
30 millions of acres, and that the price was 5,0001, Now, The house then went into committee on the
he was not defending all that had taken place at New ARMY ESTIMATES.
Zealand and elsewhere with regard to the purchase of On the first vote, 1)1,977/. for the departments of the
land. He was willing to admit that unjustifiable traneac- Secretary of State for War and the Commander-in-Chief,
tions had taken place with regard to the purchase) of Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained of the loose way in
land from aborigines. They had generally taken place which the estimates vere placed before the house. This
not in consequence of, but notwithstanding, the policy vote comprised sums:or three assistant secretaries ; what
and wishes of Government. But when they were speak- were they all to do! He also found a large salary of
ing of the price given to the natives for land as being in- 9501. put down for the chaplain general. What were the
adequate, they must bear in mind that the value these duties of this chaplain general? Was he a kind of bishop
lands possessed was entirely owing to the exertion of the over the other chaplains ?
settlers. It was the roads, the harbours, the vicinity Col. KNOX said that when the War Department was
to markets, and the operations of commerce, that gave reorganised, a pledge was given to Parliament that full
value to land ; and although the price given might be explanation should be given of its expense and manage-
small apparently in relation to the price of land in this rnent. Tole had never been done ; and they were now
country, still it by no means followed that that price paying treble the amount in the Commander-in-Chief's
might not be at the time, and under the circumstances, department ; and he very much doubted whether the
et sufficient representation of the then value. But with butinese was more efficiently conducted. There were
regard to the promise of schools and hospitals, although in reality four secretaries—one more than stated
_there was no doubt that Mr. Mantell held out, as he by the last speaker ; there was a military correspond-
believed he was authorised to held out, promises to the ing secretary. Parliament ought to insist on the pledge
natives, yet he believed that nothing in the nature of a being fulfilled which was given before the war,
contract could be said to have been entered into, and for with regard to the expense and distribution of the force.
this plain reason, that nowhere could he find the slightest A commission ought to be appointed to inquire into the
approximation to a statement of what was the amount to whole business of the department. The relation of the
be expended for these objects. It was quite clear that a Commander-in-Chief sect the head of the War Depart-
general promise to provide hospital accommodation and went was not what it ought to be. (Hear, hear.) With
schools, no fund being set aside fur that purpose, al- a military man at the head cf the department there was
though it might be an obligation in point of morality, less chance of a collision ; but if a civilian filled that
could hardly be said to have assumed the definite form office great difficulties might occur. The duties of the
of a contract. But he must remind the hon. baronet office ought to be clearly defined. Sir Thos. Trowbridge
that the power had been taken out of the hands of bad been apdointed head of the clothing board ; after-
the imperial legislature. The moment the control of , wards a change was made, and a gentleman was ap-
the waste lands passed into. the hands of the colonial pointed whose poly recomm,,ndation appeared to be that
legislators, the colonial legislature took epon itself all he knew nothing of the requirem ,nts of that department.
those obligations. There was at the present time a sum Sir F. SMITH said that the duties of the department
at the disposal of the New Zealand government for that could not be performed with a smaller staff
purpose, but looking at the state of feeling among the Sir D. NORREYS referred to the state of the house
white inhabitants, he should only he deceiving the hon. (there were only some 25 members present) as evidenc-
baronet if he were to hold out any hope that that sum 1 ing the culpable apathy of Parliament on matters of
would be increased. j national expenditure. He stated the particulars of a
Mr. LABOITCHERE, as chairman of the committee, I claim which had been tent in to the War-office for the
whiled to say that the committee was in no way misled property of a deceased soldier, and said That a delay of
by the evidence of Mr. Swell. No doubt the resolution six months had occurred before the matter was sealed.
misted in the form it did to carry out some party tactics This was highly discreditable to the management of the
in the colonial legislature. At the same time he regretted department. The most lavish expenditure was incurred
that Mr, Sewell, who bore a high character both in pub- in the movement of troops, owing to the want of system
lie and private life, did not give to the committee the ex- and good management. He did not blame the hon. and
planation which he had since given. With regard to gallant general now at the head of the department for
the general question, he assured the house he was this wasteful expenditure.
not at all favourable to the prinMple of guaranteeing Col. NORTH expressed surprise at the complaint of
colonial loans, except under very special circumstances the hon. baronet. It was possible, by application at the
indeed. When he was at the Colonial-office many such War-,office, to obtain at any time the fullest information
appliettione were made, but he thought they ,as to the death of soldiers, and the property which they
ought never to be acceded to except under very peculiar might have left. e .
circumstance.. Sir D. NORREYS reiterated his statement.
Mr. ADDERLEY said a member of that house ought After a few words from Sir J. TRELAWNY,
to be exceedingly cautious bow lie made attack. on indi- Col. BOLDERO sa;d that the department instead of
victuals. He averred that the house was not deceived by . being too large was much too small. Three departments,
the evidence of Mr. Sewell. He was well acquainted with the army, ordnance, and militia, formerly under three
the subject, having been the recognised correspondent of heads, each responsible to Parliament, bail been col:welt•
the colony in this country, and having been put in pos. dated into one ; and the staff was not sufficiently large.
session of the whole state of the case. There were two At Weedon, for instance, where upwards of a miliion
portions of the colony interested, and neither would con- had been spent in little more than a year, the accounts
sent to the liberation of the lands of the other unless its had never been audited, and it had now been necessary
own were liberated also, so tl at thelgrant of the smaller to send down extra clerks for the purpose. All the ad-
aura would have been absolutely useless without the vantage gained by the amalgamation had been an in-
guarantee of the larger sum. crease of expenditure. In 1852-3 the amount of force
Mr. FOPFESCUE quite agreed with Mr. Adderley under those departments were 113,697 men, and the ex-
as to the smaller sum being of no use to the colony. pence was under nine millions. Now the force was
With regard to tho purchase of the native rights it should 133,000, and the expense was 11M,00,000/. Still it was
be remembered that the purchase was of the primel right 1 inefficient properly to conduct the business of the de•
is tracts in which there was no individual property and Pertinent, and he believed that it would be necessary to
which were in a wild state. add another million to the estimates.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY conceived the explanation General PEEL said he would endeavour, when he
which had been made was satisfactory. He was one of prepared the text estimates, to meet the views of Mr.
those who voted against the loan altogether, and he Williams. Instead of the staff being reduced, he was
trusted that the house would take warning by what had convinced that it must be enlarged. (Hear, hear.) He
happened in this case, refers ed to the case mentioned by Sir D. Norreys, and
Mr. W. WILLIAMS was also oppoeed to these gua- said that nothing could exceed the anxiety of the deoart-
ranteee. meut to give the earliest and most satisfactory informa-
Sir J. TRELAWNY withdrew his motion. tion in all such cases as that referred to.
INDIA. Mr. W. WILLIAMS repeated his question about the
Sir W. CODRINGTON said that the army being now three secretaries.
very large—it was composed of at least 200,000 English General PEEL said the only answer he could give was
troops—the number of recruits required yearly must ne- that the whyle of those officers were fully employed.
cessarily be great. He should say that at least 30,000 Mr. WILLIAMS said it app eared there was also a
teen would he required to meet the annual ca ualtiew, military corresponding secretary.
which were now unusually heavy, on account of the S:r W. CODRINGTON said the office was a most
number of men we had in India. Now he must say that onerous one, and the duties were very satisfactorily pert
the present system of recruiting was anything but satin- formed. •
factory. Men were cajoled into entering the service, and Col. KNOX was satisfied that good order and method
measures were adopted with that view which could net would materially lessen the labour of the War-office.
be regarded as other than dishonourable and discredit- Cot. NORTH bore testimony to the efficiency of the
able. The standard, which used to be 5 feet 6 inches, or military correspondiag secretary and others, and said
5 feet 8 inches, had been reduced to 5 feet 3 inches, in that there was not one officer too many.
order to complete the levies required for India ; but it The vote ens then agreed to.
had since been raised again to 5 feet 4 inches. This re- 233,000/. for manufacturing establishments, milit try
duction has had a prejudicial effect upon the discipline of storekeepers, and berrack•oaastere.
the service ; for instead of men from the agricultural Mr. NEWDEGATE said it appeared that the estimate
districts, it had filled the regiments with recruits from for the manufactory at Enfield was 96,0001. or 97,000/.,
the lowest classes of the great tewne. He thought it instead of 55,000/. This was a great increase, be [loped
would be well to revert to the old practice of ,raising the produce would be correspondingly large. The report
particular regiments in particular counties and t)wne, of the committee of 1854 on the manufacture of small
and identify them with those local ties. (The gallant arms bed recommended that, a debtor and creditor ac-
general read a long extract from Sir chari„ Napier, count ehould be kept in the government establishments
who was a warm advocate of this plan of localieing, dif showing the cost and the production. He had long been
ferent corps.) Again, he deeply regretted that motives anxious to see this account produced, and hoped that the
of economy shoul I have prevented the keeping up of precedent would be followed in ether departments. At
the military train. If there was one branch of the per_ present the Enfield accounts had to be picked met from
vice less efficient than another at the breaking out of a four or five different places in the estimates. It was too
war it was cure to be this ; but there was none upon touch that the house should be expected to compile these
which the safety and comfert of the arniy , more do- accounts. In addition to the large increase in the Enfield
pended. (Hear, hear.) He thought it would be better expenditure, several extraordinary items had been intro-
to collect what remained and attach it to the camp at duced. In 1854, slier the committee had recommended
Aldershott, where it would supply a much needed want that the expense for the establishment at Enfield should
in the means of instructing the army. Again, he thought be limited to 34,0001., it hari amounted to 150,000/.,
the substitution of military auditors in the room of and had since swelled up to 270,0001. or 300,0001 The
the commissariat was unfortunate. The commissariat expense of the artificers had increased from 39,0001. to
officers were military men, and under the comaland of 84,000/. It had been said Vat the errpl imilent of ma.
the general ; and their mode of keeping the accounts was chinery would dispense to a great extent with skilled
simpler ane less cos•ly than the new mode. For instance, labour. The estiwa'e was that 1,000 men, custiri
the cost of keeping the accounts of the Ceinese expedi- 09,004, would produce 150.000 muskets in a year; but
tion was 4,0001., whereas under the commissariat officer it turned out that with an expenditure of 81,000/,, enly
it would only have been 1,300/. Again, he found that 50,000 muskets were produced. (Hear.) lie made no
there was a credit in favour of this country from the charge atmintt the managers of the estabirehment, but it
lonian Islands amounting to 20,000/. a-yeer, Now it was evident that nice, were still oblig-d to employ a
had come to his (the gal ant general's) knowledge that a great number of skilled labourers, whereby the aims
duty As the in-
was actually exacted upon the wine consumed by trade were deprived of their best workmen.
oliuer soldiers, and erea upon the tunferats of our officers, epectiug officer at Enfield was the same, who inep cted
thought that this dot ought to be ' . y removed ,or else the arms sent in from private establishments the latter
that the proceed s should be expended in increasing the were p'aced et a disadvantage. The intention of this
comforts of the soldier. (Hear, hear ) house was that Ehtfield should act as a competitor to the
Mr. INIONSELL ref tined to '
a statement of Gen. Peel, gun trade. The head of the Enfield establishment was
to the effect that faith must be kept
at Carebalton, and that it would
entailwith th.e student naturally interested in its success. But it was not fair
to the-arms trade that aperson in such a position should
perm(' upon the public. Ile (Mr. Moe thought,anconsiderable ex-
be the • i f the a- by the trade. Let the
produced ,
ever, that faith might be kept with' tsh%) public
•i
tbhon.ne -
farms be inspected 'WSnotconnected
13,' come officer who was
any cost, by giving the present pupils,_ when they 'a*rrivedt with Enfield. That was a fair request. The arms trade
at a proper age, admission to the Woolwich Acadthought Ithey produced better article than the En-
byemy teat
a pass examination, without suhjecting them to any field establiehtnent, and all they warted, if there was to
competitive tett. (Hear.) Formerly, when the pupils Wt be cmnitetition, that that, competition should be a fair
\Woolwich were boys, there might be no impropriety in one. He thought the country should not forget what
three or four of there sleeping in one room, but now that was due to the gun trade and their exertions in times of
they were young mon it wits most desirable that each difficulty and danger.
should have a room to himself, and he hoped, therefore, Mr. MONSEI,L said the return showed that Erifiehl
that the gallant gentleman would ask for a small vote produced only 20,030 muskets last year. Tnis year it
for tat purpose. would produce between 50,000 and 60,000. The cost
Cul, KNOB.conourrei in the f.tvgestion of the ri,2.lit of a xiele male at Enfield was under V., whereas those