The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-13 00:00:00

said the slave trade had diminished, that not so many
slaves as formerly were now exported from the coast of
Africa. Well that might be the case, and for a very good
reason. The demand for slaves in the Brazils had lately
ceased, and they did not require that amount of slave
labour which they formerly employed, and which was
produced on the coast of Africa. All who now carried
on the slave trade were Spain and Cuba, and to a con-
siderable extent our dear friends the Turks on the Medi•
terranean, and these got as many as they required. He
undertook to say that no member of that house would
assert that those who dealt in slaves could not easily ob-
tain as many as they pleased. (Hear.) Then the situation
we were in was clearly this--we were paying a million a
year, or something like it, to obtain an extension of mari-
time police to put down the slave trade ; and those
who required slaves were getting as many as they wanted.
(Hear.) There was evidently something wrong there.
Either the system was utterly inadequate, or it was an
unmitigated evil in itself. (Hear.) What then was the
effect of the squadron ? It was this, that Cuba got as
many slaves as she required, but in order to supply her
demand a greater number had to be exported from
Africa, to allow fez. that margin which would be occas
sioned by our capturing or liberating any of them on the
passage. These were sent in less roomy vessels, lees
attention was paid to their health, and various expedi-
ents were resorted to, fatal to the unfortunate slaves,
to elude the English cruisers. So that for the sake of
capturing a very small percentage of slaves from Africa
to Cuba, a great amount of suffering and death was in-
flicted upon the great body of those who were exported.
He believed it could be proved that this country was
extending the miseries of the slave trade to an increased
number of Africans, and we fancied because ve9 captured
a few and liberated them, we were suppressing the
slave trade. (Hear.) He could not understand why
the operations of the squadron had done so much for
Bread and nothing for Cuba. In Brazil the slave trade
had been abolished by the force of public opinion, for it
was a mistake to suppose that we in England monopolised
all the moral feeling of the world, and that no other
nations were alive to the obligations of morality and re-
ligion. Other nations were able to view the slave trade
in the same light as ourselves. Brazil viewed it in that
light, and the Brazilian government passed a law to cease
that trade, although it had been untouched by the squad-
ron. (Hear.) It had been said that the squadron had
exercised a very beneficial effect upon the Brazils. He
(Mr. Gibson) did not believe it. He believed that if
there had been French cruisers in the Channel when
we had slaves, that fact would not have tended much to
pacify us. He believed that the squadron and
the Brazilian Act of 1845 tended very much to
put off the time when the Brazilian Legislature
was inclined to legislate upon this subject, and that the
stave trade would have ceased much sooner if it bad not
been for that offensive act of Parliament to capture Bra-
eilian vessels, arid English law courts to deal with them
without any treaty rights to make any such enactments.
His principal object that night was to ask the house to
repeal the Brazilian Act of 1845. The committee of
1853, of which he believed the present First Lord of the
'Admiralty and the president of the Board of Control
were members stated in their report that the cessation of
the slave trade in the Brazils, furnished a reason why
the Government should repeal the act of 1845. Now,
what was the relation of the Brazils with regard to the
slave trade? It was that if any subject of the Emperor
of Brazil were found involved in this trade it should be
regarded as an act of piracy. That was their engage-
ment with this country, and it had been fulfilled to the
letter. An adequate machinery had been established in
Brazil to give tffsct to that law, and we had no cause
whatever for maintaining that Brazilian act of 1845
which was only passed upon-the ground that the Bra-
zilian Government had faired in fulfilling its treaty
obligations to this country. He (Mr. Gibson) was in the
house when that act was passed, and he protested against
it at the time. Lord Aberdeen, who was at that time
Foreign Minister, made a promise to Parliament, which
was communicated to the Brazilian Government, that
when the slave trade had ceased, or Brazil had entered
into treaty arrangements with this country to put it
down that act should be repealed. Those events had
occurred, and he thought it was the bounden duty of
this country to see that its promise should be fulfilled,
and the act of 1845 repealed. The export trade of
Brazil with England amounted to between twelve and
teirteen millions a-year. Englishmen held a large
amount of shares in their railways, and interest
upon their debt. Under these circumstances, and that
the slave trade was suppressed there, it behoved Eng-
land to strike off its statute book that offensive law, and
to place the relations between the two countries upon a
more satisfactory footing. The right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Cardwell) had spoken of the missionaries, whose
advocate he had become ; but he (Mr. Gibson) had
spoken to many missionaries, and he found that univer-
sally they relied upon the doctrines and the opinions
they taught, and not upon the broadsides of our men of
war. The same views were held by the British and
Foreign Slave Society, whose report spoke strongly upon
this matter, and urged the abolition of the Brazilian act
of 1845. The report of this society (portions of which
the right hon. gentleman read) also showed that the
Turks were extensively engaged in the traffic of young
negroes, who suffered most fearfully from Oriental cupi-
dity. This traffic it was alleged had greatly increased
since the war. When they considered that the only two
countries which carried on the slave trade, Turkey and
Spain, both of which were deeply indebted to England,
some other means should be taken of reaching them than
the miserable little squadron we had now engaged.
When the Ot man Porto and the Government of Spain
were convinced of the soundness of our moral views,
they would no doubt take measures to put down this
iniquitous trade. (Hear.)
Mr. A. MILLS thought it was very important that
it should be borne in mind that Spain had received a
large amount of money from us for the suppression of
the stave trade, and that it had violated all treaty en-
gagements. He shared in the satisfaction which had
been expressed in the statement of the Under
Secretary of State for the Home Department, for it
showed that the American difficulties were over, and
that although in this matter we had two unfaithful
allies, we had entered upon better days. Ho hoped
that upon this subject they would hare some ex-
pression of opinion from the noble lord the member for
Tiverton.
Mt. GURNEY considered our past efforts for the re-
pression of the slave trade had been eminently successful.
All agreed that the slave trade and legitimate commerce
could not coexist in the same locality. It was clear that
no difference of opinion existed upon that point, and it
might be remembered that in his evidence before a com-
mittee of that house, Sir Charles Hotham, a high au ho-
rity, said the two could not co-exist for any length of
time, that the two could not permanently extend them-
selves, and that where the two prevailed, slavery would
beat the other completely out of the market. The
honourable gentleman gave •a very encouraging view of
the expert of cotton from West Africa to Brazil,
supporting his views by voluminous statistic-,
The heathen natives had entered into legitimate com-
merce. He thought all experience was in favour of the
system adopted by Admiral Bruce, that of preventing
the embarkation of negroes rather than trying to capture
them after einba.t kmant. There was a very considerable
trade carried on by negro traders, who embarked small
c trgoes. This trade was much checked by the weight
of duties, and one great hardship was that a ship break-
ing 'milk at Sierra Leone or Bathurst to land a email
portion cf the cargo paid tonnage on the whole, as if the
cargo had been lauded.
Sir G. B. PEG HELL said that if this motion was
agreed to the cotton trade would entirely disappear,
falling a prey to the pirates along the coast. To give up
the right of search would be to abandon all our treaties
with Spain, with the native chiefs, &c, after p:tyieg
enormous price, 400,0001. which with the interest would
now amount to 630,0001., to Spai❑ for this very right.
Sir C. NAPIER recommended the employment of a
large number of steamers on the coast of Africa. If that
class of vessels had been employed when the squadron
was first formed the slave trade would long have ceased
to exist. One objection he had to the present system
was the mode of rewarding officers and men by prize-
money. He did not desire to see slavers captured so
much as to prevent slavers from leaving the coast. No
doubt the officers and men employed upon that station
deserved reward, and he would give them double pay,
but at present the prize-money was an encouragement
to officers (although he did not say that they acted upon
it) to allow the embarkation of slaves, He was informed
that the e-xtent of the coast to be watched was only about
1,500 miles, and 15 or 20 small steamers would soon put
an end to the slave-trade there. The right hon. gentle-
man the member for Ashton (Hr. Gibson) appeared to
confound the right of search with the right of visit. We
had never possessed the right of 4.,enrch as r .garded
America, but the right of visit was a different thing. A
ship might pass ahead of a vessel whose character it was
desirable to know, and dropping a boat might send on
board and ask to see her papers without at all delaying
her voyage. They had no tight to open a hatchway. If
England had been allowed to search American ve-sele,
and America to search English vessels, the slave trade
might have been soon put down. He was glad to hear
that the Ender Secretary of State was about to take a
course satisfactory to both parties, and hoped that hence-
forward England would not be called upo❑ to apologise
for every trifling excess of duty on the part of English
captains. All chance of quarrelling with America
would be removed if strict orders were given to all cap-
tains of English vessels to flow suspected slavers, and
if they were found to be American not to interfere with
them.

Mr. ROEBUCK had often considered this question,
putting himself in the condition of the slave, and consi-
dering what ho should do if any one made him a slave ?
(A. laugh.) His answer was, that he should use every
means in his power to make himself so dangerous to his
master that he would not wish to have another slave.
(Elear, hear.) Ltt them not then imagine, from any-
thing he should say, that he was a friend to the slave
trade. It was an unholy traffic, not more degrading to
the slave than to the master and all engaged in it. It
was the greatest stain humanity had ever brought o❑
itself. (Hear, hear.) What the question of the hon.
gentleman sought was, that all our vessels should in
future desist from exercising any right of visitation or of
search. He differed from the gallant admiral, who made
a distinction between the right of search and the right cf
visit, and said we were entitled to one but not to the
other. He held that we had no right to either. We
were now about to give up all attempt to maintain a
right of visitation of American vessels. Our attempts
had been to prevent the exportation, not the importation
of slaves. Those attempts had utterly failed. Cuba ob-
tained as many slaves as she wanted, and as we had in-
creased the difficulty of exportation, the effect was that
a larger number was embarked to make up for losses.
We had, in fact, increased the number ex-
ported and not diminished the number received. Our
endeavours bad been wholly mischievous, our philan- f
thrcpy had injured mankind. Our loss of money and
risk of war had been wholly nugatory. He wanted that
answered. It was not enough to point out increase in

commerce, and say that trade in goods and in slaves was
incompatible. That was an error. The trade in slaves
had gone on from the beginning, and the Increase in
other trades was owing to the increase of demand. Our
endeavour to put down the slave trade was no cause of
the increase of legitimate trade. It was really a stain on
our name that we had bullied Brazil, and truckled to
America. Brazil, though she imported slaves, had made
the slave trade a piracy. We passed our acts of Parlia-
ment, which we said should be at an end as soon as the
slave trade was put an end to. That had occurred, and
we took credit for it, but the fact was the trade went on
until the Brazilians themselves put it down, because they
found the black population was increasing to an extent
that they regarded as dangerous. It behoved us, by re-
pealing that act of Parliament, to give that to a less
powerful state, Brazil, which we were yielding to a more
powerful nation, the States of America. The arguments
he had used bad not been answered. The right hon.
member for the University of Oxford bad made a bril-
hant speech, but had given the go-by to his arguments.
(A laugh.) If it could not be shown that our efforts had
tended to put down the slave trade, it was useless to
talk about the increase of trade. It was very well to talk
of the horrors of the passage, but the effects of our
efforts had been to increase those miseries. They were
packed in barrels, which would not be done if the
trade were left open. This was done at a risk, but
that risk was covered if only a small proportion
were landed. The motion was a humane one. The
failure was owing to France and America, but they were
too strong for us. We were wise to yield, for a war with
America would be ten times more disastrous than
the slave trade. America did not mean to put down
the trade, nor would she give us any right of visita-
tion. Any slaver would only have to hoist that bit of
bunting—the stars and stripes—and we could not search
her. The squadron was to be removed from Cuba, and
any trader in human flesh need only hoist the flag of the
freest country in the world to cover his human cargo.
He congratulated our free cousins on that result. We
had failed in our efforts to put down the slave trade in
consequence of their conduct, and the shame was not ours
but theirs.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The speech of the hon. mem-
ber for Sheffield has formed an exception to the almost
unanimity which has hitherto distinguished this debate,
and, though it supported the views of the hon. member
for Gateshead, it-certainly was no answer to the able
speeches of the right hon. member for Oxford, and of
my hon. friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs.
(Hear.) As to the speech of the right hon. member for
Ashton, though it also was in favour of the motion be-
fore us, every one must have felt that it was delivered in
an entirely different sense from the speech of the mem-
ber for Gateshead. The house has a right to complain
that the speech of the member for Gateshead was not in
accordance with his motion. The first notice which the
hon. member gave was to call attention to the continu-
ante of the squadron ; he afterwards altered his motion
to one respecting the right of visit and search, but every
one must feel that his speech was mainly directed to get-
ting rid of the squadron altogether. (Hear.) The hon.
and learned member for Sheffield has spoken in the
same sense. He tells us that our efforts to put down the
slave trade have entirely failed, and that the best thing
we can do is to withdraw our cruisers. I deny altoge.
ther that that assertion is supported by facts. (Hear.)
We may not have succeeded to the extent that we de-
sire, but we have accomplished great thine, and if it
were not for our efforts the slave trade would have been
far more active. (Hear.) In the years 1856-7-8, the Bra-
zilian slave trade was enormously large, our squadron
on the coast of Africa was in consequence very largely in-
creased, and within a few years after that the Brazilian
slave trade was at an end. In giving evidence before the
committee; of 1848 the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton said he thought it was sanguine to expect that the
Brazilian slave trade would be reduced in 10 years as low
as the Cuban slave trade then was, but by the efforts of
our cruisers, aided no doubt by circumstances in Brazil,
the noble lord's expectations were exceeded, and within
two or three years the Brazilian slave trade had ceased.
The Cuban ;lave trade woe then low, but it revived soon
after, and that revival was caused mainly by the weaken-
ing of our squadron rendered necessary by the Russian
war. The hon. and learned gentleman says that Cuba,
notwithstanding our cruisers, can get as many slaves as
ever she wants, but the fact is directly the reverse.
From the latest accounts we have received it is certain
that notwithstanding the revival of the slave trade, so
great is the difficulty found iu importing a sufficient
number of slaves into the island to maintain cultivation,
they have recently been reduced, as an experiment, to
import a considerable number of ladiansfrom Yucatan.
(Hear, hear.) I do hops that this house, for the sake of
a great policy so long maintained, will unanimously de-
cide against doing away with the squadron. But the
suppression of the slave trade is not the only benefits
which will flow from the maintenance of the squadron.
If our efforts are continued—if the slave trade is not
allowed to revive—Africa is the quarter to which wemay
look with greater certainty than to any other for our
future supplies of cotton. (Hear, hear.) With regard to
the argument which has been used that the station is
unhealthy for our sailors I can only say that that is not
the conclusion at which I have arrived after all the in-
quiries which I have made. No doubt, to those who go
on shore, or navigate the rivers, the climate of Africa is
dangerous, but for the cruisers who keep at sea the sta-
tion is no more unhealthy than many others to which
our sailors are sent, lam informed, moreover, that the
station is by no means unfavourable to the discipline of
the navy. I must say that I think great praise is due to
the officers who have had command of these squa,lrone.
They have had a very difficu;t and delicate duty to dis-
charge, and speaking generally, they have performed
it with great discretion and ability. Tne hon, and
learned member says that her Majesty's Government
have truckled to the United States. I give a distinct
denial to that assertion. There was nothing in the lan-
guage used by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs
to justify it. Her Majesty's Government have met the
Government of the United States in a frank and conci-
liatory spirit, and the Government of the United States
have responded in a frank, conciliatory, and generous
manner, and we have reason to hope that the result will
be that arrangements will be made between the two
countries for some definite mode of verifying the flag as-
sumed by vessels and avoiding the extreme difficulties
which surround this question. (Hear) Should such be
the result I think the house will admit we shall have
reason to be grateful for the slight difference which has
for a moment interrupted the relations between the
doestw two
countries. (Hear.) I regret, that the hon. gentleman
not intend to press his motion to a division, fur I think
it would be satisfactory to the public to see the over-
whelming majority by which I am sure the policy which
England has so long maintained would be supported.
(Cheers.)
Mr. BUXTON supported the continuance of the
cruisers off the coast of Africa. Ho considered they an-
swerers two purposes, one, the suppression cf piracy, and
the other the suppression of the slave trade. denied
that the cruisers were the cause of increasing the horrors
The same horrors that now
of the " middle passage."
prevailed existed before the establishment of a
squadron off the coast of Africa. The slave ship had
now
but one deck instead
of several, and the passage
was completed in a less space of time than formerly, so
that to a certain extent the horrors of the middle pas-
sage had been modified. He proceeded to show that
our ships cruising off the coast and at the mouths of the
rivers disturbed the operations of the slavers, and when
they bad those valuable cargoes on board they run the
risk of being captured before they arrived at their desti-
nation. Surely that must check the trade. What
would it be if the slavers were free to make their
arrangements at their leisure, and arrive and depart
at their pleasure. The establishment of a squadron
wag an experiment, but it bad worked well. It was only
during the Russian war, when the sq aadron was dimin-
ished, that the trade began to revive and apparently
flourish. Our consul at Cuba stated that during the
flourishing save year of 1856 he believed there were not
more than 6,000 or 7,000 slaves imported into that island.
Slaves cost about ten dollars, and fetched in Cuba be-
tween 401. and 801., which showed there must be some
official obstacle to enhance the price, and he contended it
arose from our squadron being a serious impediment in
the way of the slave trade, The squadron had probably
not been efficient in destroying the slave trade, but it had
had the effect of keeping it down from rising to seven
or eight times its present amount. The west coast of Africa
pro-
due articles valuable to this country, and he believed
-
if cotton was to be Extensively cultivated there, it would
absorb the African population in free labour, and he a
further check on slavery. He had read an extract from Lieu-
tenant May's despatches to Lord Clarendon in November
last, speaking in high terms of the industry
and intellect
of the inhabitants. There was a prospect of a rapid
growth on the west coast of Africa of commerce advano
tageous to this country, but the slave trade was the
death of legitimate commerce. It therefore appeared to
him that there was a magnificent prospect for legitimate
commerce on the west coast of Africa if they cools only
get rid of the slave trade. (Hear.) To let louse they
slave trade in Africa would be nothing more than letting
loose war, havoc, and ruin on that country, and lower
ourselves in the eyes of the civilised world. (Hear.) If
we pursue our present course it would be found a wise
one, but the other course, if adopted, would be a penny
wise and pound foolish one. (Elear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET could net understand how it was
hon. members urged that the officers of her Majesty's
navy considered the slave trade was to be put down by
the keeping up a squadron on the coast of Africa. He
had his pocket full of letters he had received from offi•
cers on that coast, stating that their efforts were futile
for the suppression of the slave traffic. (Ulcer.) Admi-
ral Bruce, lately on the African station, stated that the
suppression of the slave trade could never be effected
whllet Amer ea and Spain imported them. He (Lord
Paget) could speak from experienee of the horrors of
our system. It had been his lot to capture two slavers,
and although it occurred some years ago he should never
forget a scene that was beyond description, He on one
occasion chased a slave br;g for 17 hour=, and afterwards
captured her, when he found 480 wretched creatures on
board. These poor creatures had been for 17 hours un-
able to move—they had been without any food and water
(luring that time, and he found 480 ravicg mad creatures
on board that ship, and the scene beggared all descrip-
tion. (Hear.) This was not an isolated case, and every
officer who went in chase of a slaver involved the poor
creature in a similar amount of misery. (Hear, hear.)
No gentleman can realisefrom what be reads the misery
her Majesty's officers and men sustained on the
coast of Africa. The station was injurious to our own
officers and men, and although the majority of
them returned with the ships, nine-tenths of them came
home with their constitutions destreyed. He considered
they were midtadieg the public by keeping a squadron
on the coast, and if the motion had been introduced

earlier, be should have been prepared to have shown its
beneficial working before a committee if one had been
appointed. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON wished, in explanation, to say
that he had not represented the station as a healthy one.
What he had said was that the officers on it did not suffer
more from ill health than did the officers on some other
stations. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that the object of his hon.
friend's (Mr. Hutt's) motion seemed to be to put an end
to all naval operations for the suppression of the slave
trade; and the right hon. gentleman the member for
Ashton (Mr. M. Gibson) urged the house to ask the Go-
vernment to rescind the law applicable to the slave trade
in Brazil. Undoubtedly if these two objects were accom-
plished the slave trade would become rampant to the ut-
most degree, and, as they all know, commerce on the coast
of Africa would cease. The motion of his hon. friend was
peculiar in that sentimeut ; because Mr. Windham was
described as having said, " Perish commerce ; live the
constitution ;" but his hon. friend made a little variation
and said, " Perish commerce ; live the slave trade."
(Oh, oh). If mere assertion was sufficient, his hon. friend's
ease would be unanswerable, because he had gone on from
assertion to assertion ; but unfortunately alt his assertions
had been diametrically opposite to the fact. (Laughter.)
Hon. gentlemen said our policy had not been successful.
Our policy had been eminently successful. The hon.
gentleman had said that our squadron had increased the
sufferings of the negroes. That assertion had been
proved to be diametrically opposite to the fact. The
hon. gentleman had asserted that as long as there was a
demand at Cuba there would be a supply to meet it.
Now, it was notorious that the supply at present fell far
short of the demand. (Hear.) Within the last four
or five years we had put an end to the slave trade
on the coast of Brazil. (Hear, hear.) On that coast
no less than YO,OOO slaves were landed every year; and
the house might conclude that at least three times that
member had been shipped. (Hear, hear.) The unfortu-
nate Africans were now in some instances taken in wars
set on for the purpose. In others, they were captured
after the burning of villages, and the massacre of the old
people and of infants. Then the horrors of the middle
passage 1 His noble friend (Lord C. Paget) ascribed
those latter horrors to our interference ; but the case
mentioned by his noble friend proved the benefit of our
operations, for he (Lord C. Paget) rescued those 480
poor people and made them free. Was not that a great
act of mercy ? His noble friend had said that officers
came home decrepid and disabled ; but he was in him-
self a contradiction to that assertion. (Laughter.) By
pu ting an end to the slave trade in Brazil, we had pre-
vented the landing of at least 200,100 negroes annually
on the coast of that country. (Hear, hear.) It was
said that no credit was due to this country for t,hc aboli-
tion of the Brazilian slave trade, but to the Brazilian
Government. He denied that assertion. (Hear, hear.)
We commenced operations of a very vigorous character
on the coast of Brazil in 1850, under an aot passed in
1845. In consequence of some representations made to
Sir J. Hudson, our minister, by the Brazilian Govern-
ment, those operations were suspended, and with what
result ?—why the renewal of the slave trade. How-
ever, our operations were recommenced ; and, finding
us d, termined, the Brazilian minister went down to the
legislature and asked it to adopt the law putting an end
to slavery in that country. (Hear, bear.) Therefore,
when any man told him (Lord Palmerston) that the
abolition of the slave trade on the coast of Brazil was
not owing to our exertions, but to the growth of opinion
in Brazil, he treated that assertion with the contempt it
deserved. (Oh, oh, and hear, hear.) He did not mean
to say that there was not, at the time to which he re-
ferred, a party in Brazil who entertained sensible notions
on the subject of the Slave trade, and wished to see it
put and end to 'for the sake of Brazil itself—(bear,
hear) ;—but the people rsj Aced in their hearts at
the course taken by Great Britain, and which
led to the annihilation of the slave traffic in
their country. The suppression of the slave trade in
Brazil, so far from doing an injury to the people of that
empire, had led to the development of their resources—
' the employment of capital on public works of a very
beneficial character. So long as this c auntry bad the act
of 1845 in reserve the Brazilian government would ad-
here to the course they had been compelled to adopt ;
but if that act was repealed a return to the slave trade
on the coast of Brazil would follow as a certainty. If
the slave trade on the African coast were kept down, in
a very few years our commerce with the West Coast of
Africa would exceed our commerce with Brazil. (Hear,
hear.) Sources of commerce of great importance to this
country had been repeatedly pointed out in ground nuts,
palm oil, and cotton. They were told that those articles
had grown up because the demand for them increased.
Why, there was always a demand for them; but how
paspinyoasselcounrgityas the country was laid
for life and property ?
wc oausltde,t ha
ne rde
there
supply
When the demand was for human flash there could be
no supply of the articles of legitimate commerce. Now,
with regard to the supply of cotton, Afric was of the
utmost importance to this country. It was nearer to us
than India. He believed the cotton districts of Africa
were more extensive than those of India ; the access was
easier, and he believed that in a very few years the sup-
ply of cotton from Africa would prove more valuable to
this country than that of any other in the world, America
alone excepted. On commercial principles then, he said
it would be the height of folly to reverse their policy.
How did the case stand in a political point of view
This country, from 1815 down to the present time, had
stood forward among all the nations of the world in
its endeavours, not only by its own example, but by
inducing other countries to concur in the abolition
and suppression of the slave trade. That also had
been eminently successful, because several countries
had followed our example in abolishing slavery, and
every maritime country, either by treaty with us or
by its own law, had reprobated the traffic and endea-
voured to prevent it. France was at one time a great
slave trading country ; it had put down the slave trade,
and more recently it had abolished slavery altogether.
Portugal was at one time a great offender ; he was happy
to say that not only had Portugal abolished the slave
trade, but that its present government had it in contem-
plation to propose to the legislature a law for the pro-
spective abolition of slavery in its colonies. (Hear, he .r.)
But the motion now before the house proposed that we
should abrogate our proud position—that we should
turn round in the moment of suclcteisawiecahasnthdrausseaythhiwteLese
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but he had little doubt that the Spanish Government
would awake at last to the disgrace it had brought upon
itself, and that we should see the slave trade in Cuba
vanish like the slave trade in Brazil, and that this
country would then have the satisfaction of feeling that
her efforts had not been thrown away, and that she had
achieved one of the noblest works that any nation in the
world had ever accomplished. He admitted that to do
this we must make sacrifices. But what great work was
ever accomplished without great sacrifices ? It our
efforts were successful the people would not grudge the
cost. Of this he was certain, that if they were now to
poll the people of England on this question they would
say, "Persevere." (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GILPIN complained of the noble lord having
entirely misrepresented the views of the supporters of
the motion. He objected to the further maintenance of
the squadron, because the squadron had failed to ac-
complish its object. They might have a partial success
in suppressing the slave trade, but as long as America
encouraged it. their efforts for its entire destruction
would be unavailing.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN, who bad a motion on the paper to
somewhat the same effect as the honourable member for
Gateshead (Mr. Hutt), begged to be allowed to with
draw it.

General THOMPSON must say an enormous corn.
mercial fallacy prevailed iu the speeches in favour of this
motion. Now, if it was a fact that for every slave that
was landed in Cuba four were embarked from Africa,
that of itself was a circumstance which told very power.
fully against its advocates. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DRUMMOND said, although the hon. member
for Northampton (Mr. Gilpin) might whitewash him-
self, he could not whitewash the hon, gentleman who
broughst forward the motion before, the house. Tnat
hon. gentleman distinctly laid down the grand idea that
the way to govern was by the commercial principle of
getting whatever we could no matter by what means.
(A laugh.) The great principle of commercial inter-
course said the hon. gentleman—the principle of supply
and demand--mutt override everything. (An hon.
member, "He said nothing of the kind !") There were
hon. members now in the house who were not present
when the hon, gentleman spoke, but those who were
present when he addressed the house would remember
that he said they ought not to interfere with that prin-
ciple, because they would be interfering with the great

principle of free-trade. (Mr. Hutt said the bon. gentle.
man misrepresented him.) He would then pass on to

moth r subject. Thebos. gentletrae and some who sup-
ported him dwelt on the horrors of the middle passage,
and imputed them to the policy pursued by the Govern.
ment ; but the horrors of the middle passage at present
were nothing compared with what they were before the
Government entered on the present course. The
hon. gentleman also said that it would be a dreadful
thing to incur the risk of a war on this subject ; but he
(Mr. Drummond) maintained that the bloodiest war ever
waged was nothing in comparison with the daily
miseries of this slave traffic and the sufferings of the
negroes when they arrived in that country which was
often held up as a model of civilisation and liberty. He
happened to be present at that great meeting to which
the hon. gentleman had alluded, and he there maintained
the argument he now maintained. He there said that
if a man stole another'e watch or horse, and sold it
to A, and A. afterwards sold it to B, did not the owner
try to follow his property and get it back ? The
same principle held good with regard to a matter
far more important than a watch or a horse
Personal liberty was the first right of man ; and if any
one attempted to make him a slave he had a right to
kill that person, and kill him he would if he could. (A.
laugh.) His firm conviction was, as he stated at the
meeting referred to, that this thing would never be got
rid of, except by a rising on the part of the blacks them-
selves, and he should heartily rejoice when ho heard that
they had risen and inflicted some poor measure of abort
justice on the people who now held them in slavery.
The hon. gentleman said that the English boasted ex-
ceedingly of their morals and humanity. Now, he
thought that if there was any part of the community
which liked to be flattered more than another it was the
honest old English merchant and the honest old English
manufacturer or trader, who were willing, for profit, to
trade with the Devil himself. (Laughter.) It was his
firm conviction that the love of money and trade—
carried on under the name of free-trade—really ate out
of the country anything like moral and religious feeling, i
and the arguments of the hon. gentleman were chiefly