The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, YUNE 15, 1858.

be introduced in India itself. (Hear.) Ile did not put
forward the principle of election as the principle of re-
presentation—(hear)—but simply as a means—an alter-
native means which the house would do well to consider;
by which, for some portion of this council, they might
obtain the services of men who should be at once emi.
neat and independent. The only question on which he
need eater, then, was the nature of the constituency to be
adopted. If any such constituency was formed, he thought
the house would be ready to accept that which already
existed, viz., the Court of East India Proprietors. To
that court might be added a large number of persons who
bad an interest in the material and industrial enterprises
which were carried on in India ; as, for instance, the
bolding of India railway stock. The proprietors of India
stock entitled to vote amounted, he believed, to 1,600 or
1,700, and the holders of India railway stock to about
2,600. In addition to these, as applying a third element
for the supposed iconstituency, they might take the re-
tired officers of the various branches of the service in
India who had served there for 10 years. Of such officers
there were resident in this country from 2,600 to 2,700
persons. Theis these bodies would give a constituency of
from 7,000 to 8,000, so that as regarded numbers a con-
stituency could be found. With regard to the intelligence
of such a constituency, and their competence to perform
the duty which would devolve upon them, he need not
use any argument, for upon that point the committee
could form its own judgment. He would merely observe
that such a constituency would import a large amount
of personal interest into Indian affairs—a large amount
of experience of Indian administration, and, what was
perhaps of no less importance, an entire freedom from
political Wee. If the elective principle was adopted, that
was the general constituency which he should suggest,
and which he would now leave the committee to decide
upon: (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the noble lord had made a
very fair statement to the committee on this important
subject, but which did not require any very lengthened
argument. They had, on the one hand, this suggestion
of the noble lord, and on the other they had the
proposition of the appointment of the council by the
Crown—a mode of appointment which the Government
themselves adopted for part of the council. It was the
regular and constitutional mode of appointment in this
monarchy that when appointments to the executive were
made they should be made by the Crown or the respon-
sible Minister of the Crown. (Hear, hear.) When ap-
pointments of this kin,' were made, whether of judges or
other executive officers, everybody knew from whom the
appointment emanated, and by whom advice was given
to the Crown. If an incompetent person was appointed,
the Prime Minister or the head of the department from
whom the appointment issued was responsible. There
was therefore a constitutional security of responsibility
when an unfit appointment was made. By the act of
1853 a certain number of appointments to the East India
Board were given to the Crown. Five appointments
were made under that act, and no one that he was aware
of found fault with the selection made by the Crown.
(Hear.) At all events, the late President of the Board of
Control had not found fault with them nor their other
colleagues at the India Board. He did not know that it
had ever been said that the appointments of judges, the
heads of the revenue and customs departments had been
unduly made; and for this reason, that the Minister of
the Crown felt that a heavy responsibility rested on him
if an improper selection had been made. The noble lord
pointed out some of the objections to nomination. Ob-
jections might of course be made to any mode of appoint-
ment, but in all these things they must only balance
convenience and inconvenience. He did not think that
nomination during good behaviour, or for a longer or
shorter term of years, which was the mode of nomination
chosen by the present Government themselves, would be
open to such inconvenience and be so injurious to the
council as the mode now proposed by the Government.
(Hear.) It was one thing to keep up the old machinery
when the old machinery existed, and he could under-
stand the argument of those who said the advantage of
it was so great that they would not risk a change. But
when the house decided that a change was desirable he
ventured to submit to the committee that they ought
to make it complete, and not to take a piece of one sys-
teth and a piece of another system, and try to dovetail
them together. (Hear, hear.) There was consistency
and identity of interests in the old system, when the
East India proprietors were traders, and flourished as
trade prospered, and decayed as trade decayed. But
when,. in 1838, this system ceased, and the proprietors
of East India stock had their dividends secured to them
in such a mapner that the prosperity or failure of the
Indian trade hardly affected their position, the position
of the East India proprietors became very different.
They had a three per cent, stock in this country, the value
of which depended very much on the prosperity of the
country, but no man would say that the proprietors of
the three per cent. stock should elect a certain number of
the Cabinet of this country. (Hear.) There would be
quite as much incongruity and absurdity in making the
proprietors of the East India stock elect a part of the
Indian Council. The holders of railway stock appeared
to him as little fitted to be electors of the council as the
proprietors of East India stock. They never were known
to have taken any part in the government of India; they
were guaranteed the money they advanced, they had no
direct interest in the government of India, and whatever
interest they had might be supposed to lie in the direc-
tion of imposing greater burdens so as to secure good
dividends to themselves. With regard to the retired
commissioned officers resident in this country, some of
that class might take an interest in the affairs of India,
but the greater part of them, though resident
in India, and serving in India, did not con-
cern themselves, and had no manner of interest
in the persons who were most competent to govern
India. He understood that there were 400 ladies who
were proprietors of East India Stock. He had no great
objection to their introduction, but it was a novel prin-
ciple to introduce into the government of India. (Hear,
hear.) The house had already decided that the system
of governing India should be changed, and he should
consider it a bad augury for the good government in the
future if they took those who had been heretofore the
nominators of the government of India as the future
constituency of India. The committee should consider
the evil which would follow from the proposition. The
directors would have the same share of patronage that
they heretofore had. Persons of very great weight very
much objected to the mode of paying the directors by
patronage. Lord W. Bentinck, Lord Macaulay, and
Mr. Trevelyan, persons of great Indian experience,
protested against their being paid by patronage ; and he
saw by the papers of that day that Sir J. Lawrence was
of opinion that all appointments in India, whether civil
or military, should be made by competitive examination.
He (Lord J. Russell) came to the conclusion that, if the
noble lord succeeded in his proposition of naming ten out
of the fifteen, or eight or six, out of the members of the
council by means of this representative body, he would
be giving rise to a system of corruption which would be
very injurious to the future interests of India. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer said that this body was so
numerous and so separate that canvassing would not
take place; but there would be means found out of cir-
culating letters and engaging the votes of the consti-
tuency ; and there was danger that the patronage of the
members would be distributed amongst the constituency
that elected them. (Hear, hear.) He was of opinion
that the nomination should be by the Crown, which ap-
peared to him to be the most effectual mode of securing
the independence ofathe council. (Hear, hear,) The
noble lord concluded by moving that it was expedient
that the members of the council should be nominated by
her Majesty. (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM, who rose at the same time with
Sir E. Perry, said he was sorry to stand between the
house and the hon. and learned gentleman, who had so
much more experience of India, and whose opinions
were more worthy of their attention. He had
hitherto abstained from obtruding any opinion of his
upon the attention of the committee ; but the vote which
he was now called upon to give he could not give with-
out teeing a somewhat more general view of the subject
than was presented by the motion under consideration,
Throughout these discussions he had deliberately voted
in accordance with the opinion that this moment was
most inopportune for changing the system of government
in India. (Rear.) He had therefore voted for the motion
of the bon. member fur Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring) for
the motion of the noble lord the member for Durham
(L nerd H. Vane), and for the motion of his right hon. friend
(Mr. Gladstone). Although he did not wish to re-argue
the question on which the house had already pronounced,
still he could not but remark that the authorities on whom
the greatest reliance could safely be placed on such a sub-
ject were opposed to the step they were about -to take-.
Lord Ellen borough pronounced a decided opinion that the
change at this time was in xpedient. Ho had no means of
knowing with precision the opinion of Lord Dalhousie,
but ha believed confidently that his opinion was opposed
to thechange on which they wereabout to enter. But what-
ever might be the opinion of Lord Ellenborough or Lord
Dalhousie, of all men living he entertained a very decided
opinion that the decision end opinion of Mr. Mountstewart
Elpleinstone was that which was most entitled to their
consideration—(hear, hear)—and his deliberate opinion
was also ad verse to proceeding with this measure at
present. (Hear.) With regard to authorities he would
say MO more. He did not wish to take a gloomy view
tl ii'ffetirs in India, but still it could not be forgotten
that the mutiny was not at present quelled. (Hear.)
He was afraid there were as many men is arms against
them in the Upper Provinces of India as at the com-
mencement of the outbreak. There were very remark.
able expressions even with respect to the success of cur
arms in the correspondence from India. Our success in
India had been compared to the course of a vessel which
cat the waves indeed, but left no trace behind ; and to
the wind blowing over a field cf corn which bent before
its impulse, but immediatelyafterwards the corn raised its
Read
again. They heard by every mail of the capture of
guns, but still there did not appear to be any want of'
guns or lack of the munitions of war on the part of the
neeree thus plainly showing that there had been for
a length of time strncealment of arms, which were pro-
dueed
Now, coansele takt newergeueY of he present occasion.
dangercims. (Star, bin fear were generally rash and
(teme,titvre
gale of -wind was an lues%) To
unship the rudder in a
pulse, but it was most
dangerous, and often
horses ran ;,way to take the r°118.,, ou(tHefatr.h>e W hea
coachman'sthe
hand 'was the first in pule, but it °
annotd.presence of
mind, but a sympt.in of fear, raelonesas
8,
anciimprudence.
wdeortwehnet haeenffidl ai rs et
(llt-nr.) When a State was tottering
would find those who
was sh tken, you
able to build it up the !poet swift to
de-
stroy. (Hear.) But admitting that effect must b
given to the decision of the majority, then came the
question, what is it you desire ? What is your object
Is it to constitute a deliberative council more efficacious
than that which now exists, or is it to give greater
promptitude and efficiency to the executive . 7 It ap.
peered to him that his hon. friend the member for
Birreingbain was at that moment the axis on which
the political globe of the house revolved—(laughter)—
and that; being so, he was brought to the conclusion
that his noble friend the member for Tiverton and

himself were the antipodes—(laughter)—because it
so happened that when the noble lord agreed with the
hon. member for Birmin ham, he (Sir J. Graham) found
himself differing widely from him, whilst when the noble
lord differed from his hon. friend, he found himself con-
stantly agreeing with him. (Laughter.) On the present
occasion, the hon. member for Birmingham dealt most
frankly with the house, for he told them what he desired
us to see, a council constituted as widely different from
the present Court of Directors as possible. His noble
friend—certainly somewhat late in the day—last Friday i
announced that he most cordially agreed with the hon.
gentleman in that respect. (Laughter.) Now it was a
most remarkable fact that up to the present time the ex-
isting Court of Directors bad no accuser. It was not
only without an accuser, but it was smothered with
Like complimentstheviet fromvictim
ef all
ancientside fable, of the
it shouse.
wasgarlanded(ear, hear.)with
flowers of rhetoric by the very hands which were raised
to destroy it. (Hear hear.) So far from wishing to make
the new council as different as possible from the present
Court of Directors, his desire was, since there was to
be a change, that the change should be reduced to a
minimum, and that it should be made in the main as
like the present court as possible. He did not mean to
offer any vain compliments to any member of that house
but of all the members of that house then present who
best understood this question in all its bearings, he must
say that the right hon. gentleman the member for Hali-
fax (Sir C. Wood) was the man. (Hear. hear.) He (Sir
J. Graham) had the honour of being associated with Lord
Glenelg, with Lord Macaulay, and Sir J. Mackintosh,
in the committee which framed the act of 1833. There
was no novelty present now which was not present to
the committee which framed that act, because the com-
mercial character of the company ceased that very year
and that committee came to the conclusion, which was
adopted by the government of Lord Grey, that it was
inexpedient to take their powers from the East India
Company on the cessation of their commercial existence.
But his right hon. friend the member for Halifax, who
understood the matter clearly in theory and practice,
told the house he was of opinion that a mixed go.
verning council aiding the Minister of the Crown was
indispensable to guide and control the government of
India. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend also said
—and he did not think he would withdraw the opinion
—that " a better council than the East India direc-
tors no man ever had to aid him in the government
of India." (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend the
member for Randor and the noble lord the member for
Tiverton, differing from his right hon. friend the mem-
ber for Halifax, but not possessing his knowledge and
experience, declared the machinery to be cumbrous and
inefficient. Where was the proof of its being cumbrous
and inefficient I (Hear, hear.) The report of the com-
mittee on transports when presented to the house would
show, if he mistook not, that any delays which took
place did not arise from the Court of Directors. (Hear,
hear.) His right hon, friend the member for Randor,
in addressing the house upon this question, took an
illustration from mechanics, and said that no machine
was stronger than in its weakest point. Now without
meaning any disrespect to the right hon. gentleman the
member for Northampton, he would ask him where he
thought the weakest point was before the fall of the late
government. (Laughter.) But to come back to the
point that-if they were obliged to make a change under
circumstances so alarming, it was desirable that the
change should be the minimum consistent with the de-
cision of the house. (Hear, hear.) They had resolved
that the dominion should be transferred to the crown,
and that there should be a council to assist a minister,
and they were to decide how that council was to be con-
stituted. Some persons held that the change to be
made, however small it might be, should be such as
would appear to be part of a great and large design.
He thought, however, that it would be a recommenda-
tion in any proposal hat the change it involved was no
great reversal of what now existed, and did not appear
to be part of a great and extensive change. As yet all
the difficulties in India arose from a military mutiny ;
the measures of necessary severity for the punishment
of that may be such as to produce an unfavourable im-
pression on the minds of the people of India, and it
would be a most unfortunate circumstance if they should
be led to believe that there had been any great changes
in the home government of India which would lead to a
reversal of the existing policy. The East India Company,
whatever might be its faults, was imbued with a know-
:edge of the social habits of the people of India, with a
sympathy for the natives, a kindly feeling towards their
prejudices and their errcrs. If the native mind should be
brought to believe that anygreat change had taken place
is the Government here which amounted to a reversal of
their former policy, that which is now but a military
mutiny might be converted into a struggle between races,
a conflict between black and white, and an alienation of
the whole people from us. The result of such an event
would be the loss of our empire there. All those views
pointed to the conclusion that they ought to be contented
if possible with an inconsiderable change ; that if (to use
the expression of his noble friend) they could build on
the old foundations they would effect all that circum-
stances required. Various plane had been suggested and
different persons had stated the views they were dis-
posed to take, and he therefore thought it right to state
what course he would be inclined to adopt. He was dis-
posed to think that after all it would be well that the
council should consist of a number from 13 to 15, as the
committee had already decided, and that in the first in-
stance the council should be nominated in the bill.
(Hear.) He thought the council so nominated should
hold office during good behaviour, which was equivalent
to life ; and that a large or the larger portion of the pre-
sent Court of Directors should be the persons selected
f,,r nomination on the council. (Hear, hear.) He was of
opinion, to meet the difficulty suggested by the noble
lord (Lord S'anley), that after a service of, say ten years,
the Government should be empowered to grant them a
retiring allowance. He thought also that the salary
should be at least 1,5001. a-year. He was also of opi-
nion—and in this ho was sorry to say he differed from
his noble friend (Lord J. Russell)—that they ought not
to have seats in Parliament. (Hear.) He thought a select
committee ought to be appointed. If they were to have
the requisite promptitude and efficiency, he did not see
how they could dispense with it. The Minister could not
act with promptitude and energy unless there was a se-
cret committee through which be would act. The noble
lord (Lard J. Russell) spoke of having them all members
of the Privy Council ; he would, as a distinction, confer
that honour only on the three members of the secret
committee. As to their sitting in Parliament, he must
say his experience of recent debates would lead him to
expectt if it were allowed, occasional conflicts between
the minister and his council, which would be better
avoided. With regard to the question of patronage, he
thought that the appointment of Governor-General,
governors of the presidencies, and commander-in-chief
ought to be made by the crown. As to the members of
the councils in India, they might be named by the go-
vernment of the day, by the Governor-General, or by
the President and council. As regarded a very large
portion of the general patronage, the question was
already solved. The whole of the civil appointments
were made matter of public and open competition ; that
privilege ought certainly to be extended to the first
commission in the artillery or engineers, the scientific
corps. With regard to the remainder of the patronage,
he did not see any objection to its being exercised by the
minister and council—(hear, hear)—in proportions a rine-
what the same as at present, the nominees being subject
to an examination to ascertain their fineness. He might
be wrong, but he held a strong opinion that the plan
which involved the minimum of change was moat de-
sirable, and still it would effect all the great objects
they bad decided on. He had then to consider how he
was to vote on the question immediately before them.
The principle of election did not enter into the Court of
Directors as at present constituted, and he bad already
stated he should recommend that a large portion of them
be taken for the council to be constituted in the bill. To
that extent, there would be in the first instance an inter-
mixture of the principles of election and nomination.
He was bound to say ho was not prepared to carry the
principle of election further. He was prepared on
principle to vote for the resolution as it now stood, but
he could not vote for the seventh resolution. He had
reason to believe, from the opinions of friends whose
opinions were of the highest value, the late Lord W.
Bewinck and the late Lord Hardioge, that the system
of canvassing, as it has existed up to the present time,
was so disagreeable to the feelings of many men the
best qualified—(hear)—that they would not look for the
once. He feared an extension of the constituency would
only aggravate the evil—(hear)—and aggravate it to
such a degree that first-rate men coining from India
would not expose themsele;es to a task so disagreeable
and so onerous. He did not wish to say anything harsh
candidateslalni his khnoonwelset dr
ag
with ea nh e
respectto
p as such
ee
patronage,
e 43
of the present system, but from facts which had come to
vtaht
shas et 8
hap
onr
yeu el sduuper
upright
sacrifice his in,ere t at the expense of his friends or come
He f e
filling
Ilwoulding
up
vacancies.
He under engagements not consistent with purity of conduct.
a entertainedsugges ti suggestion
a
n as
veryt o the
decided mode
opinion that they ought not to carry the principle of no-
mination by the Crown into full effect. He would rather
adopt the opinion of Lord -Grey, that the best course
would be for the president and council to agree to three
Dames to be submitted to the Crown ; before the final
nomination the names selected by the Crown should be
laid on the table of both houses for say a month, and the
final nomination would not take place if objected to by
one or both houses of Parliament. To that extent he
would retain the principle of nomination and election.
lie must say that, if they could not have an effective
council exercising a moral control over the minister, they
would be driven, as the hon. member fur Sheffield had
prophesied, into the opposite extreme; and if they could I
not have an effective council they would be driven in ii
hopeless despair to embrace the opposite alternative, and
have a minister solely responsible, with subordinates of
high character and station. It could not be denied that
the government of India had been mainly conducted in
all its highest features and most important outlines, by
gentlemen who had never them-elves been in India, Sir
James Melvin, Mr. Melvill, the two Mr. Mills, and
Mr. Dickinson, were men a ho hal worked the labour-
ing oar. He would prefer a minister with such subor-
dinates, unless they had an independent, effective coun-
cil exercising a moral control. He aid not want a sham
of a council, the members of which would open
their mouths like ravens to the inin'str for their
food, when the term of their office was about to
expire. He would infinitely prefer a responsible min-
ister to such a council. He was desirous of the very
minimum of change. It appeared to him they had
better proceed piecemeal, with a view to making future
changes as experience pointed out. The Court of Di-
rectors, with with its prestige in India, and its knowledge of
subject, would bring in the aid of the new council
that power, experience, and knowledge which would be
the best medium mvieium of introducing hereafter future changes.
in present
on the whole, that the least change would,
thought they circumstances,
eithercould notma make
ea illbe the most advisable. He
pauseno w
betweenarrived
two at
opinions
pointinio n s ; when
they
mustt bey
ye
least possible change, or go the entire

length, and have a responsible minister with agents re- '
movable at the pleasure of the crown—not lightly re-
movable, but on the same footing as the under-secreta-
ries. He was sorry to have troubled the committee at
such length—(hear, hear)—his excuse was that he had
not troubled them before. He thought it best to state
frankly what his opinions were, and what course he
would take ; he should, with the views he had described,
vote for this resolution, but for the seventh resolution
he could not vote. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that his right hon. friend who
had just spoken had revived the question of the general
expediency of legislating for India this session, and in so
doing had in fact renewed the discussion which was first
opened by the hon. member for Huntingdon in the early
part of the debate. The right hon. gentleman had also
referred to an opinion which he (Sir G. C. Lewis) bad
expressed, that the existing constitution of the East India
Company was cumbrous and inefficient. He (Sir G. C.
Lewis) did not think it would be agreeable to the com-
mittee if he were now to renew that question, but he
would just remark that the objection he made did not
apply to the constitution of the Court of Directors, but
to the compound which was formed by the Board of Con-
trol operating upon the Court of Directors. He was
quite prepared, if necessary, to defend the opinion he
then expressed, that it was most desirable the house
should, in the present session, proceed to revise and re-
construct that ineffective form of government. The
question they had now immediately to consider, how-
ever, was the mode of appointing the council which was
to assist the Indian Ministers. He quite concurred in
the opinion that it would be highly advantageous to have
such a council. When the general question of our colo-
nial administration was more in question than it was on
the present occasion, it was proposed that there should
he a colonial council to assist the Colonial Minister; but
the objection to that proposal was the heterogeneous
character of our colonies, which would frustrate the ob-
ject it was intended to answer. For example, if a coun-
cil were sitting in one chamber, composed of members
prepared to advise the Minister on questions relating to
our North American colonies, of others prepared to ad-
vise
on our Western, of others again on our Australian,
and of others on Ceylon, it was impossible they could all
concur with equal efficiency in giving advice on any one
question. Now, with respect to India the constitution
of a homogeneous council was quite possible. He could
see no absurdity whatever in the propositior, and he did
see reasons for establishing an Indian council, though he
could see none for establishing a general colonial coun-
cil. With regard to the precise manner in which the pro-
posed council should be constituted, the noble lord op-
posite had brought that question forward in a fair and
convenient form, and one which he trusted would lead
the committee to a satisfactory solution of it. The noble
lord bad divided the question into two parts—the mode
of appointing the nominative portion of the council, and
the mode of appointing the elective portion. Practi-
cally, the question lay between the proposition of the
noble lord and that of the late Government. The ques-
tion in fact was, should the council consist exclusively of
members nominated by the Crown, or should it consist
partly of members nominated by the Crown, and partly
of members elected according to the principle set forth
in the Bth resolution. With respect to the tenure of the
member to be appointed by the Crown, the proposition
of his noble friend was, that they should hold office
during good behaviour. In the bill of the late Govern-
ment, the proposition was this—that they should be ap-
pointed by the Crown, that the term of office should be
appointed by the Crown, that the term of office should
be eight years, sul ject to good behaviour in that
time, and that they should then go out unless so re-ap.
pointed, but in that case they were not to be entitled to
retiring allowances. The object of the proposition of the
late Government was this. It was thought that unless
come provision were made limiting the period of service,
they would not retire. In the bill of the late Govern-
ment the term was reduced to six years. But such was
the reluctance of officers to retire, that he would re-
mind the committee that in the case of the judges,
which had been referred to by the noble lord, even with
the securities of publicity and single action io Court, a
great difficulty had been found in inducing aged
judges to retire, even the loss of the all-important sense
of hearing not having been deemed by them sufficient
for the purpose. Some ago ought, therefore, to be fixed,
and he was prepared to agree to the propostion of the
Government, with the understanding that the Govern-
ment could give a superannuation. (Hear, hear ) With
regard, now, to the elective part of the council, that was,
in fact, the point on which the vote of the committee
would turn. The noble lord had with great candour ad-
mitted that the principle of representation would be in-
applicable in the case of a council like that of India. He
said he recommended election as the best mode of treat-
, ing a problem difficult of solution by other means ;
but that he did not look upon the council as fulfilling
a representative character, or as being entrusted with
representative functions. He (Sir G. C. Lewis)
begged hon. members, on that (the Opposition) side
of the house, to remember, therefore, that all the
popular arguments as to the election were held by
the Government to fail in the case of India. The
principle of our constitution was, that taxation and re-
presentation should go together. Now, the taxpayers
were the people of India, but the constituents of the
elective members of the council would be the tax-eaters,
as they had been termed the tax-consumers of India.
Teey would be the proprietors of India stock, who re-
ceived dividends guaranteed on the produce of the Indian
revenue. There were 1,600 proprietors of India stook,
of whom one-fourth were ladies, and the principle of
election proposed was, that the voters should have a
direct interest in property charged on the revenue of the
country. But India stock was now quite imaginary.
The 6,000,0001. cf India stock was simply a charge upon
the revenue of India, and did not exist in a tangible
form. Therefore the stock holder was only the creditor
of the Indian Government. He had a certain charge on
the revenue of India, which was guaranteed to him by
Act of Parliament. He was a guaranteed creditor, and
his claim had priority of other claims. If the stock-
holder, therefore, was to have a vote in the election of
the council, a similar right ought to be given to all other
creditors of the Indian Government. He did not see how
it was possible to make a distinction between the Indian
bondholders and those who held the Indian debt, or
were proprietors of India Stock. By a recent return of
the stock held since 1851 it appeared that 297 millions of
rupees were held by Europeans, and 164 millions by
natives ; being 29,000,0001. and 16,000,000/. respec-
tively. Native proprietors, therefore, held one-third of
the entire amount of the Indian debt. Now it was pro-
vided by the last act for India that the claims of these
parties might be paid off within one year of Parliament
depriving the company of their administration of the
Government of India, or, in certain circumstances in
which it might seem expedient to do so. The contingency
then contemplated would actually arise if the measure
now before the house should pass ; for the company
would then be deprived of its possession, and Genera-
went of the Indian territories. The proprietor might
then demand to be paid off, under the conditions of the
existing act. There would be no difficulty in the opera-
tion, and, in his opinion it would be an advantageous
one for the country. Either, therefore, the proprietor
would demand to be paid off, or else the time would
come when such a measure would become expedient and
necessary. In either case it was clear that it would not
do to rest the basis of an elective principle for that coun-
cil on a constituency which might and which no doubt
would, one day disappear. The noble lord proposed that
members of railways and other public works in India, in
addition to the proprietors of India Stock, should be
members of the constituency. He (Sir G. C. Lewis) could
not see that the committee could come to any other con.
elusion than that the whole council should be nominated
by the Crown. The noble lord had said that the consti-
tuency he proposed would be free from political bias—
but more than that was wanted to constitute a body of
ehmtors. He (Sir G. C. Lewis) had no objection to a
clause being introduced to qualify some of the present
directors for being members of the council.

S,r E. PERRY said the right-hon.Qonet (Sir J.
Graham) had stated that he intended to vote in favour
of the council being partly elected and partly nom nated,
although he had said he was opposed to that proposition
upon principle. As to the functions of the Court of D.-
rectors, he had high authority for stating that in moat of
the measures of a general character they had very little
power to interfere, after the thing was done, beyond that
of making comments. The council as proposed would,
in his(Sir E. Perry's) opinion, sink into a mere nonentity.
With the exception of the recal of Lord Ellenborougb,
he denied that the Court of Directors were entitled to
the credit which some hon. members had given them
for their independence and knowledge of India., The
functions of the council formed an important element
ter their consideration. The right hoc. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, in answer to
the question, that the council were to do everything.
Now, it appeared to him (Sir E. Perry) that in certain
eases where justice was to be administered, to natives of
India especially, the council would be found to be
of great value. Delay in legislation upon the affairs
of India would be fatal to the interests of this country
in India in his (Sir Erskine Perry's) opinion. His hon.
friend the member for Guildford told the house over and
over again that they had no one to deal with in India
but the mutinous troops ; but surely, after what had
happened, no one could be found who entertained such
an opinior. Ile thought that speedy legislation was of
the utmost importance, in order to disabuse the minds
of the people of India themselves, and that things might
settle down as quietly as possible. Another great ob-
stacle in their way was the prevalent feeling among the
religious party in th'e country. They looked upon India
as if it. were an island in the South Seas, and thought
that by sending out one or two missionaries the whole
country would be converted. Now, that was simply a
delusion ; and he, for one, should hail the day with
satisfaction when the whole of India was surrendered to
the Crown and the came principles applied to the people
as were acted on at home. He hoped to see toleration
and justice established—he wished to have the rights of
property respected, and no interference on the part of
the State with matters that ought to be left to indi-
v nate.

Mr. S. II ERBERT wool! not f,llow hie hon. and
learned friend as to the past of the Board of Directors
as compared with what its future Government would be.
lie voted the other night for the larger number on the coun-
cil, btcause be thought tbat,divided intocomroittees to do
tlje cvirk the East li.dia Directors now performed, a
large number was nec,•s!ary. lie did n 0,.. believe that
any one not er gaged in the administration of affairs
himself was competent to
.advise a Secretary of Sta'e
And then came the question as to how the council
was to be constituted. Tbey had, in the first in-
stance, the plan of his noble friend the member fur
Tiverton, which was to be a direct nomination by
the Crown of pereons eligible to be re-elected.
Then they had that of his noble friend the member
fur the City of London, which was 0130 nomination
by the Crown during good behaviour; and that of
the noble lord the President of the Board of Control,
which was partly by election and partly by nomination.
He was bound to say that he was very much struck by

the extreme fairness which characterised the statement of
that noble lord. Indeed, there was one remarkable cha-
racteristic in all his statements—that he never sought to
colour anything, but tells the house everything with the
most perfect fairness. (Hear.) Such a course of proceed.
ing gives him, very naturally, great authority. The noble
lord accordingly told them that he believed the elective
element would be very advantageous, but he admitted
that it was attended with great difficulties. The noble
lord said, do not confound these elections with represen-
tation ; but, after all, that was the great difficulty. Re-
presentation without election was possible -because par-
ties may represent certain class interests—and even elec-
tion without representation. He remembered, many
years ago, reading in one of the works of the right hon.
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a story of an
English traveller who, in travelling in Egypt, had an
interview with the Pacha, when he described the advan-
tage of popular election and representation, such as
practised in England. On a subsequent occasion, in
another interview, the Pacha informed him that he in-
tended to adopt the system in Egypt. " What !" said
the traveller, " you cannot do it ; you have Lot the
means nor the population to carry out such a system."
"Oh !" said the Pacha, " I have determined to elect
them myself." (A. laugh.) Now that was what he (Mr.
S. Herbert) called representation without election. They
looked upon election in this country not with any great
favour, but as a means to an end, in order to secure the
benefit of representation. It was not in itself good, for
it led to extravagance, reckless expenditure, hatred,
and bad feeling, but they put up with all, in order to
obtain the blessing of representation, and to do the
country great good. Now, in case of election for this
council, the court of proprietors holding stock could
easily transfer it to entitle the holders to vote, and,
altogether, very great abuees may arise. The question
then arose, cocl-1 they get in any other way an indepen-
dent council ; that is, an independence which could
not be suspected. Now, he objected to the plan of his
noble friend the memberfor Tiverton, because be thought
the members of the council would be subject to be in-
fluenced by the Cro am, The plan of his right hon. friend
the member for Carlisle, propounded for the first time
that evening, was certainly entitled to their serious con-
sideration. They had the power of the Crown checked
by the nomination in the bill, with the placing of names
on the table of the house in order to enable any one to
object to them. He certainly approved of it, though he
did not see his way how it was to be effected ; but he
hoped the Government would put some resolutions on
the paper to carry it into practical operation. As the
question at present stood, he certainly preferred the
proposition of his noble friend the member for the city of
London ; but he hoped the Government would ador;
the proposition of his right hon. friend.
Mr. WILLOUGHBY believed that on the appoint •
merit of a proper council depended the future welfare,
and indeed the safety of India. There were three modes
proposed to secure that object. There was first the pro-
position of the Government, then that of the noble lord
the member for Tiverton, and the third by the noble
lord the member for London. For his own part, he pre-
ferred the plan of the Government to that of the noble
lord the member for London, and that noble lord's to
that of the member for Tiverton. He was favourable to
the larger number of the council,eand he was a decided
supporter of the flan of committees, as distinguished
from heads of departments. He was also in favour of
there being a vice-president of the council, as the presi-
dent could not be always present. He did not see any
objec ion to a member of the council being a member of
that house. Still there was a great deal in what had
been said on this subject by the noble lord the President
of the Board of Control. He denied that the charges
against the East India Company contained in a work
by a Mr. Shaw, and published thirty years ago
—and which were read by the honourable member
for Surrey (Itir. Drummond) were true as
regarded the company at the present moment. The hon.
gentleman then read an extract from the work of Mr.
Mills, the author of " India,' in which he eulogised the
conduct of the company as retarded their administration
in India. The hon. gentleman read another extract from
Basil Hall's work to the earns effect. He then said that
he would support the motion of the noble lord (Lord
Stanley), unless the Government were disposed to accept
the proposition made by the right hon. baronet the mem-
ber for Carlisle (Sir James Graham) which he looked
upon as a most statesmanlike one. (Einar-)
Mr. LIDDELL concurred in the view taken on the
question by the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham), as
he was anxious that a strict check should be kept on the
Indian Minister. No notice was taken as to how the
local councils in India were to be appointed. He should
like to hear from the President of the Beard of Control,
in the course of the night, how the local councils were
to be appointed.
Lord GODERICH said that the principle of complete
and entire responsibility of the future Minister for India
had been decided on, and also that he should be assisted
by a council. He trusted that the person appointed to he
Minister, if he had not special and particular knowledge
cf the affairs of India himself, should be assisted by a
council composed of persons who would give him the best
and most reliable information. But he could not bring
himself to believe that the plan of election, as sketched
out by his noble friend opposite (Lord Stanley) would
give the Minister such assistance as he most needed. He
thought that for such assistance they could look to the
Crown alone. It seemed to him that the noble lord re-
tained all the vices of the existing system of governing
India, without any of its advantages. The present Court
of Proprietors bad the adiantage of meeting io a body,
of having papers laid before them, and of discussing
Indian subjects, but at the same time that all these pe-
culiar advantages, and the body enjoying them, were to
be swept away, they were told that it was desirable to
retain the principle upon which they were elected on
behalf of a body of men who would have zone of
their advantages, Then they were to have as consti-
tuents retired Indian officers, but they were an eeelusive
body, and he could not think it wise to give them any
power in the election of the council. In this ccuntry,
election had nothing to do with executive appointments,
but his noble friend had gone out of his way to secure a
constituency which was by no means calculated to secure
a council such as they wanted. The plan of nomination
by the Crown bad been in operation foi five years, and
they had heard no complaints. All judicial nominations
were made by the Crown, and yet there were no ap-
pointments less objectionable. There was a very impor-
tant question, namely, what share the Home Govern-
ment was to take in Indian affairs. The best policy was
to leave the fullest discussion to the local authorities
upon local details ; but that would not be the case if
they bad an independent council ; and these being his
views, he could not vote for the resolution of his noel()
friend.

Mr. BAILLIE said, that if the arguments of the
noble lord were to have any weight, they would amount
to this, teat the members of an elected council could
not be trusted with the Government of India, became
they would be unfit to be trusted with State secrets.
Some animadversions had been made upon the nature of
elective constituency proposed, but he thought such a
constituency would have a great interest in the geed
government of India. If men invested their money
upon security of property in India, if that property was
lost to thie country, it was clear the owner would be the
loser, and he would therefore have a direct interest is
the welfare of the Indian Government. (Hear, hear.;
If they were to have any constituency at all, he did not
see how they could have a better than that which the
Government had selected. The hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Devon port, in a long speech about anything but
the resolution,—(laughter)—attacked the Court of Di-
rectors, and said that all the praise was due to the offi-
cials of the Court, and not to the Board of Directors ; he
might just as well my that all the praise was due to the
clerks and not to the chief of the Foreign-Office. (Hear.)
It was said that officers coming home from India would
not canvass the constituency; but those gentlemen
would not be required to do so; for they would be the
parties to be selected by the Government ; and it would
be gentlemen representing the finance and the commerce
of the country wh) would have to appeal to the consti-
tuency, and very useful members they would be. The
only manner in which the Minister could be made re-
sponsible would be by having details of every transac-
tion of the Indian Government. Civilians were sent
out to g.:vern I,toa with despotic powers, and the only
security they could have that those powers would not
be abused was tc have a detailed account of every trans-
action, howevereinall, and this was the case at present.
He alluded to a recent report respecting Pegu as an
illustration. It gave an account of how the province
was flourishing and how the revenue was increasing.
But ooe of the means of revenue was a poll-tax, estab-
lished long before we dial th7e Country ; a poor man
was pressed for it andeould not pay it; he went out
and sold hie children for a few rupees with which he paid
his tax. This gave us an insight into the real condition
of the people there, and it was only by such details that
they could get that insight. (hesr, hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH regretted the extraneous subjects
which had been introduced into debates. Hon. and
right hon. members who had neglected previous occa-
sions of expressing their views came down upon a par-
ticular resolution and gave (expression to their general
opinions, as the right hon. gentleman the member for
Carlisle had done that evening. He admitted the right
hen. gentleman who introduced this b:11 was not open to
such a charge, for upon everylresolution he had made a
speech of intense, and free from personalities. (hear,
hear.) What they wanted was an independent cone-
cll. He did riot' believe that these nominated mem-
bers could be so dependent and so base as some
seemed to suppose. (Rear.) The right honourable
gentleman (Sir J. Graham) hsd represented thorn as
ravens with their months opus, waiting for something
from the minister; but this was a degree of turpitude
which was nut to be e steectecl. But since 1853 they had
actually had the experience of these nominated members,
and everyone admitted that the result was most satis-
factory—(hear, hear)--and why, he would ask, should
not future nominees be equal!! independent ? As to
election, it was a mere resort, and n• ,t a very desirable
one, for the purpose, it was said, of securing independ-
ence to the Crown. :f gentlemen were nominated for
hfe, they would be perfectly independent. The right
hoc. gentleman said the constituencies proposed were
as good as any constituencies could be. What were
they ? First, the proprietors of Best India Stock—a
eone;.ituet Cy to which every one objected. An hon.
eetetlewan (C. lonel Sykes) .had given a very good proof
of what teat constituency was when ho said it took him
seven years to canvass them before he secured his elec-
tion, and that election cost him 2,2381. (Rear, hear.)
Sir C. Metcalfe, and every one examined before the
committee of 1853, spoke against it. The next con-
stitueecy was the railway proprietors, who were said to
have an interest in Wife So they had ; they were in-
terep ted in high lures; but the people of India were in-
terested in low fares. (Rear.) The third and last pro-
posal was, that the servants of the company should have
votes, which would be making the servants appoint the
masters. This applied to existing servants as well as to
retired servants. If a candidate applied to a railway
proprietor, for instance, he would say that he isanted a

higher guarantee for his line ; and, if the candidate
would vote for that additional guarantee, he would sup-
port his candidature ; and, if not, he would oppose him.
The same would be the case in canvassing retired
officers, who would want their pensions increased. Such
cases as these were continually coming before the autho-
r:ties now. The Crown, he believed, would have no
difficulty in finding a sufficient number of proper and
independent men, even supposing them all to be nomi-
nated. (Hear.)

Mr. CUMMING BRUCE complained of the spirit of
party which had been suffered to creep into these debates.
A great and respected statesman, Lord Metcalfe, had long
ago predicted the evil which would result from the direct
action of that house in the affairs of India; he, there-
fore, wished to have such a council as would command
the confidence of the house. They were not called upon
at that moment to discuss the details as to the mode in
which the elections should take place, although the
speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for Car-
lisle might have led away the house to suppose that such
was the case. They lived in hopes of quieter times
again, and then they would, no doubt, see once more
that apathy on the part of the public which they had
formerly witnessed with respect to India. He thought
there ought to be some council which would be a check
upon the minister, because they might perchance be
placed once more under a psuedo-Whig Government,
such as they had lately had, who would support a
council which would be guilty of all sorts of corruption ;
no, he would not say corruption, but all ports of mis.
takes. (Rear, hear, and laughter.) In the course of
these debates many suggestions had been made as to
the manner in which the council might be made moat
useful and most independent. Now, it was quite clear
that, after all, the greatest portion of the Government
must be carried on in India. and any plan which united
the active and vigorous judgment and experience of
those connected with the locel government with the
home government would of itself improve the constitu-
tion of that government. He, therefore, ventured to add
one more suggestio❑, which, however, did not emanate
from himself, lAA had been suggested to him by an offi-
cer of great experience in India, namely—that the go-
vernors and councils of the several presidencies, and the
chief commissioners of the Put.jaula and our other great
provinces in India, should have each the power of ap-
pointing a member of the council, coming, as these gen-
tlemen would do, direct from the scene of action—ac-
quainted, as they would be, with the local wants and
requirements of their respective presidencies and pro•
vincea—and chosen, as no doubt they would be, because
they were the best men that could be sent, he could
not help thinking that they would form a useful,
practical, and independent element of the council.
If they had such an element in the council, these schemes
of annexation which had been so pertinaciously carried
out by the Board of Control against the constant remon-
strances of the Court of Direotors, and which were the
real cause of the mutiny, would be prevented in future.
(Rear, hear.) It was important that such an element
should be given to the people of India themselves, and
that the policy announced in the despatch of Lord Ellen-
borough should be practically carried into effect. He
approved entirely of the mixed principle cf nomination
and election, and he thought that the retired civil and
military officers engaged in Itedia would form a very use-
ful constituency. The plan of the noble lord the member
for the city of London did not secure that independence
in the council which even the Minister of India must,
for his own sake, desire. Remember how very rapidly
Presidents of the Board of Control were changed—(hear)
—and surely the new President would always feel happy
to find in the council, on his coming into office, men at
once experienced and independent, on whose assistance
and public spirit he could rely. He trusted the noble
lord would not, in this case, yield to the suggestions of
the noble lord (Lord J. Russell), but that he would ad-
here to the plan he had proposed, and he was prepared,
for one, to give his cordial assent to, and divide in its
support.

Colonel SYKES said a gnat variety of topics bad
been imported into the debate, and if he followed other
speakers he trusted he would not be considered singular.
He believed the policy they were engaged in carrying
out was equally dangerous to England and to India,
and he foresaw nothing but mischief until he heard the
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which,
replying to the question, " What are to be the func' ions
of the new council ?" he said they were to be those of
the present Court of Directors, and that they would, in
fact, initiate all Indian measures. If the right
honourable gentleman adhered to that declaration,
and carried it out, be saw hope of safety yet,
and especially in financial matters, for the Minister
would not be able to spend a single shilling without
the consent of his council. He saw also in it a pro-
tection against the carrying out of such nefarious schemes
as that of the Oude bankers to plunder the Vizier, and
which was only defea*ed by the independence of the
directors at home. (Hear.) A Mioister was said some-
times to be responsible; but what was the fact? He
was only responsible when he happened not to have a
majority. The late Mr. Hume endeavoured, during
several successive sessions, to bring the Minister to ac-
count for annexing the territories of the Rjah of Sat-
tara, but the majority of the Minister always shielded
him. Ministerial responsibility was therefore not a
reality. They came now to the question of how this
small council of 15 was to be elected. Was it to be
wholly nominated by the Crown, or partly nominated
and partly elected? One-third would be nominees ac-
cording to the proposition as it stood. The rest were to
be elected by persons who were decried in all kinds of
ways as being altogeths r unreliable for the purposes of
the election. Of the 1,600 or 1,700 stockholders of
the Company, while about 300 of them were certainly
ladies, the majority of the remainder were parties who
had lived in India, and knew the country and all about
it. If those persons were unworthy of confidence, how
was it that they had been trusted for 75 years to exer-
cise that very function of election in the Court of Direc-
tors ? As a rule, could it be said they had not made
judicious and useful selections in their appointment of
directors ? Of the 18 directors of which the board was
composed, 6 were military men, 3 were bankers—a most
useful element in the composition of the board as regarded
finance-6 civil servants, men of experience, 2 lawyers,
and 1 naval man. He would ask whether that consti-
tution did not combine the requisite variety of talent,
and combine it, too, in the proper proportions I If the
trust confided to that board had not been abused, who
should it be thrown over ? The noble lord the member
for London had endeavoured to cast odium upon it by
calling up its former character as a trading associa-
tion. That character, however, it had long since been
deprived of, and it now existed merely as a poli-
tical body • but even if the fact were not so, how could
it be degraded by the charge of its engaging in opera-
tions of commercial enterprise ? On the contrary, so
long as the merchant princes of England continued to
hold their present high place in public esteem, such an
a-sociation with commerce could only do them honour.
Now as regarded the patronage to be exercised by the
Council of India, he was willing to agree that one-half
should be thrown open to competition, and that the
either half should be distributed by the Indian Govern-
ment in such a manner as would prove most beneficial
to the Indian service. If the proposition, however, of
the noble lord, for a council partly nominative and
partly elective, should not be carried, he was of opinion
that the next best measure would be one of nomination
by the Crown, under the condition of review by Par
liatnent ; and as to appointments he thought the best
way would be for the council to recommend to the
Minister, who would thereby be relieved from any un-
due odium that might attach in any case. The army
of India ought, in his judgment, to be under the council
rather than under the Crown ; for, though they were all
proud of their loyalty, still circumstances might arise
in which they would be out at elbows with royalty,
The British army existed only so long as the Mutiny
Act existed, but the army of India was a permanent in-
stitution, and unless they were now on their guard it
might one day be made an instrument in accomplishing
he violent subversion of our constitution. In conclu-
sion he would urge the noble lord to abide by the reso-
lution, and not in any way to recede from the principle
shich was involved in it. Meat., hear.)

Lord STANLEY said he just wished to state, before
the debate closed, as it had been said that this was a
constituency which he had proposed, that he had not
proposed it or pledged the Government to it. He only
mentioned it while describing the difficulties of the point,
aid the scle meaning he bad was this—that if the house
should approve of the principle of election, there were
materials but of which the necessary conditions could
bo framed. (Hear, beer.) It was not necessary that they
should travel beyond the letter of the resolution. The
resolution stated, in effect that it was expedient that the
council should be partly nominative and partly elective.
The intention of those words was clear, and he dis-
claimed most positively that the principle of election at
all involved the principle of representation. They were
of opinion that some check should be devised against the
principle of uncontrolled nomination by the Crown, and
it that could be had, he thought it mattered very little
whether or not a representative character was acquired
by the council. (Hear.) One of the suggestions thrown
out was, that every member of the council should be in
some sense elected, but subject to the approval of the
House of Commons, That proposition was, however,
too complex in its character. He would not be under-
stood to say that the Government pledged themselves
not to admit any kind of constituency, but they could
not do so if, on the whole, the inconveniences of such a
plan were greater than its advantages. But the Govern
inept desired to place some restriction on the uncon-
trolled nomination of the Crown. (Hear.) In the ap-
pointment of the council, devise how you might, the
Government desired that some other parties might be
consu:t besides the Ministers of the Crown. Upon
that proposition he wat ready to take the sense of the
house—(hear)—but considering what had passed, the
Government did not wish to pledge themselves to more
than that.

Lord PALMERSTON thought that what the noble
lord had stated in another period of the evening, when he
was shadowing out those constituencies, ho had materially
strengthened the objections against his present proposition.
He (Lord Palmerston) was not therefore surprised, after
the objections made to this constituency, that the noble
lord had not ventured to prap.ise it to the house. Tho
speech of the right lion. baronet (Sir J. Graham) was not
in harmony with the manner in which he argued against
the principle pf election. He said he was prepared to vote
for a resolution which embodied that principle. He at-
tempted to getoutof that inconsistencybya play upon words;
for he said the Crown might nominate as councillors per-
sons who at present were acting in the capacity of directors,
and that thereby he embodied the principle of election.
But now he proposed that the council and the President,
or Secretary of State, as he might be called, were to choose
three men out of which the Crown was to select one. He
(Lord Palmerston) should like to know how the Crown was
to make this selection except by the advice of thuPresident
himself. (Hear.) So that he was the first to overrule and
paralyse the council; he was to select three names himself,
and then go to the Sovereign, and advise her to select one.
But if the right lion; baronet meant that the President was
to have only one voice out of 15, then he was establishing,
on the part of the council, that principle of self-election

which was the great abuse once complained of in our mu-
nicipal bodies, and which Parliament abolished. He (Lord
Palmerston) would beg the committee to recollect that we
were living, fortunately for ourselves, under a constitu-
tional monarchy, and not under a republic. And what was
the principle of a constitutional monarchy? It was that in
every act the Crown should have a responsible adviser ;
but now it was proposed that the council should be elected
by an irresponsible body, and not in accordance with any
principle of the British constitution. They were proposing
to abolish the Board of Directors because that body was
irresponsible, and at the same time asking the house to
adopt a principle of an opposite nature, and not in harmony
with the British constitution. (Hear.) They were propos-
ing a council not elected by a responsible minister, who
might be taken to task for the appointment. The whole
proposition was anomalous, and was a return to that state
of things which Parliament had already abolished as an
abuse. (Hear.) The member for the West Riding stated, in
the clearest possible manner, that the council they were de-
sirous of establishing was intended to be one to advise, but
not to overrule or control the minister. How could any mi-
nisterbe responsiblefor his department if he was to be over-
ruled by others who were appointed without any concur-
rence on the part of the Crown? But if it was said that
he was to be pro-eminent in all matters then what was the
use of this distinction ? The council would not be respon-
sible, and they might select through favouritism or con-
cert among themselves three very inefficient men, and the
Queen would be obliged to take one of them. The Govern-
ment were particularly the guardians of the constitution
of the country,and their measures ought to be in harmony
with that constitution. He held that all officers in con-
nexion with the executive ought to be appointed by the
constitutional advisers of the Crown. Was a judge a less
important functionary than one of the supposed council I
Yet his appointment was not left in the hands of his fel-
low judges. If a perfectly independent council could not
be appointed, he thought it would be better to continue
the present system till Parliament be better advised.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he was sorry that the proposi-
tion of the right bon. baronet the member for Carlisle,
met with such an unkind reception at the hands of the
noble lord (Lord Palmerston). No one could have observed
the course of the discussion without noticing that there
were strong objections to both propositions— to the prin-
ciple of election by an extended constituency on the one
band, and to the principle of nomination on the other.
( Hear, hear.) The speech of the noble lord (Lord Stanley)
although it was well received, as it deserved to be, drew
forth the warm feelings of the house when, with imparti-
ality and candour he stated the strong difficulties he felt
in attempting to apply the popular principle of election,
and also his objection to the principle of uncontrolled
nomination by the Crown. (Hear, hear.) It was ex-
tremely difficult to adopt one or the other (Hear, hear.)
The question was how you were to reconcile nomination
by the Crown with the weight and independence of coun-
cil. That independence must ,not be a nominal indepen-
dence. but an independence with weight and efficiency, and
free from suspicion. But this would be impossible if the
council were appointed on the principle recommended by
the late Government, for that would make them subject
to removal at will after the lapse of a few years. He
could, however, understand what made the late Govern-
ment make that proposal. They saw that they had but
the choice of two difficulties. They saw that if they ap-
pointed them during good pleasure, there would be consi-
derable danger lest the office should lapse into the nature
of a comfortable sinecure, and you might be burdened
with functionaries who, though competent at first, might
cease to be so through the lapse of years, and yet be un-
willing to resign office. (Hear, hear.) The plan proposed
by his right hon. friend was different, and the manner in
which it had been received afforded a fair augury of its
ultimate acceptance. He (Mr. Gladstone) was not pre-
pared to admit the principle laid down by the noble lord
(Lord Palmerston) that all acts of the Government under
a constitutional monarchy should be done by a responsible
Minister. He admitted that those acts which were placed
in the hands of the Executive should be done by a respon-
sible Minister, but there were municipal and other acts
which it was important even for the maintenance of free-
dom to keep out of the hands of the Executive. It was not
for the purpose of overruling and hampering the President
that it was proposed to give him an independent council,
but to secure a full expression of opinion from the best
and most adequate authorities, from men fully competent
to give such advice as would guide the President, not con-
trol him, is his decision. As he understood it, a certain
number of names were to be presented, out of which the
Crown was to form a judgment. Ho must say that he ob.
jected both to the proposition of the noble lord (Lord Pal-
merston) on the one side, and to the proposition of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer on the other, while he agreed
in the soundness of the principle contended for by his right
hon. friend (Sir J. Graham).
Mr. ROEBUCK objected to the proposal of the right
hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham). They all knew that an ap-
pointment by the Crown meant an appointment by the
Minister. who was responsible to the house; so that in
effect the appointment by the Minister was an appoint-
ment by the house. He should therefore vote against the
proposition of the right hon. baronet. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. BARING said the question was whether the
council should be solely appointed by the Crown, or by
some other mode independent of the Crown. That was the
question. The proposal of the right hon. baronet (Sir J.
Graham) seemed to be a good mode of escaping out of the
difficulty. His noble friend (Lord Palmerston) had called
on them to guard the constitution in this matter ; but they
had to recollect that India had an arbitrary government.
The Secretary of State for India was under no such con-
trol as regarded the army as the Secretary for War was
under to the Treasury and that house, and he was under
no control in matters of finance. Therefore it was that
they must go out of their way to get an independent
council to control the Secretary of State.
Lord J. RUSSELL said hon. members should make up
their minds as to the proposition upon which they meant
to divide, but he thought it was out of the question to ask
a division upon a proposition which had one sense for one
member and another sense for another. What he wanted
to know was, whether the Ministry adopted the proposi-
tion of his right hon. friend (Sir J. Graham). His own
opinion was unchanged, and he should certainly vote
against the propositions.
Sir J. GRAHAM said a few words in explanation, to
the effect that what he proposed was that the council
should be partly elected and partly nominated, in opposi-
tion to the proposal of the noble lord that the council
should be nominated by the Crown. He had proposed no
resolution, nor opened his mouth during the entire dis-
cussion until that evening, and he should be extremely
sorry if the Government adopted his proposition without
giving it their serious consideration.
After a few words in explanation from Lord J. RUS-
SELL, which were inaudible,
Sir C. WOOD reminded the committee that the effect
of the vote they were about to give would be the
adoption of the principle of nomination proposed by his
noble friend the member for the city of London, or that of
the Government, that it should be partly by nomination
and partly by election.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not
rise to defend the member for Carlisle, who is always well
prepared to defend himself ; but I wish to defend the com-
mittee from the charge of disingenuousness, because if
there is one characteristic stronger than another which has
marked the proceedings of the committee it is the bona
fides with which it has discussed, from the first, these
resolutions, and the spirit with which every suggestion
from either side has been entertained, with respect and
with that fair spirit of discussion and investigation which
has very much advanced the object we have in view. Now
the noble lord the member for London has not placed fairly
before us the issue on which we are going to decide. He
calls on the government to say whether they are in favour
of the proposition of the right hon. gentleman the member
for Carlisle or whether they are in favour of the constitu-
encies mentioned by the President of the Board of Control
in his first observations. What he has a right to call on
us to do is, to give an opinion on the fifth resolution.
When these resolutions were proposed it was held con-
venient that we should decide on point after point,
without unnecessarily connecting one point with an-
other. And although my noble friend the President of
the Board of Control, in his first observations this evening,
has adverted to other resolutions, and has expressed the
general opinions of the government respecting them, and
although other members of the committee, like the member
for Carlisle, have freely offered their suggestions to the
house, still we are never to forget that the issue at stake
on the point we are to decide is really the fifth resolution
—that we are not to decide on suggestions made by mem-
bers of the committee in the course of the discussion, nor
on remarks made by the President of the Board of Con-
trol, but that in the vote that we are approaching we
are about to decide on the fifth resolution, which de-
clares that it is expedient that the council should be
partly nominated and partly elected. Now, in asking
the house to assent to that resolution, no one can pre-
tend to say that in doing so they are bound to support the
seventh resolution any more than they are bound to sup-
port the proposition of the right hon. member for Carlisle.
And when the President of the Board of Control spoke of
the seventh resolution, ho spoke in no dictatorial tone, nor
as if he wished the house to understand that the Govern-
ment were pledged to that resolution ; and therefore I
maintain that we have only acted in accordance with the
general spirit of the proceedings in committee in discussing
the resolutions separately, and that the point in discussion
does not bind us to assent to the constituency to which the
President of the Board of Control adverted, or to sanction
the proposition made by the member for Carlisle or any
other member. If we vote for this resolution and against
that of the noble lord we shall advance our proceedings.
All to which we wish to pledge the opinion of the com-
mittee by this resolution is, that the council should be
formed of mixed elements, and if the committee approves
of that general principle, and will support the fifth reso-
lution, my opinion is, that we shall so advance our pro-
ceedings that this evening will by no means be fruitless of
results. I therefore hope that this fifth resolution will be
c trried. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to order;and observed that they
were not, by the vote they were about to give, called on to
adopt the words of the sth resolution ; they were asked
merely to say that certain words in it shall be allowed to
remain there.
The committee then divided.
For the amendment lB5
Againstit
Majority against the amendment
Lord GODERICH said as it was desirable that the Go-
vernment should haire an oppoituui ty of considering the
effect of the proposal made by the right hon. gentleman
(Sir J. Graham) as to the manner in which the council
should be constituted, he moved that the chairman report
progress.
Mr. BARROW said as the question had been fully de-
bated, he protested against the subject being farther dis-
cussed. He therefore objected to the motion of the noble
lord. _

Mr. RICH contended that they ought to have time to
consider the whole question.

71."Keconarnittee then divided, when there appeared—
For reporting progress
Against it 239
Majority
—B4
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the proposal of his
tight hon. friend ought to be further considered, and there-
fore he should say " No" to the resolution before the corn-
tnittee, but he would not advise that the committe should
divide upon the question.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER said that
the committee was only pledged to the fact that the couu
eil should be a mixed one, and therefore it was only fair
that they shoot I pass the resolution.
Lord J. RUSSELL asked if the sight bon. gentleman
was going to proceed with the 7th resolution ?
Th CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
6th resolution must come first. (Laughter.) The Govern-
ment would take care to pass resolutions in accordance
with those already agreed to.
The sth resolution was then agreed to without a
division.
PEACE PRESERVATION ACT (IRELAND) CON-

TINUANCE BILL.
Oa the motion that this bill be read a second time,
Mr. BAGWELL opposed it. He moved that the bill be
read a second time that day six months.
Lord NA AS said that, from the state of certain districts

in Ireland, it was absolutely necessary to continue this bill
for two years longer, but it did not interfere with the law.
He thought it would be unwise if the powers given by this
bill were taken away from the Government, who could not,
without them, be responsible for the peace of certain dis-
tricts in Ireland. An application from two districts to put
in force the powers of this bill had only recently been
made to the Government. He hoped, therefore, that the
amendment would be withdrawn.
After some further conversation,
The house divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading
For the amendment
Majority for the second reading...-148
The bill was then read a second time.
The Markets and Fairs Bill (Ireland) was, on the motion
of Lord NAAS, referred to a select committee.

The Confirmation of Executors, &c., Bill passed through
committee.

The Copyhold Acts Amendment Bill was read a second
time.

The Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill went
through committee pro forma.
The Joint-Stock Companies Act Amendment Bill was
road a second time.

CHURCHES, &c. (IRELAND) BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill, which, as
amended, passed through that stage.
The bowie resumed.
CONSOLIDATION OF JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND obtained
leave to bring in a bill to consoli late the laws relating to
juries in Ireland.
The bill was read a first time.
The other business on the paper having been disposed of,
the house adjourned at 20 minutes to I o'clock.

NAVAL AND MILITARY INTELLIGENCE.

The General Commanding-in-Chief will bold a
levee at the Horse Guards on Friday next, at one
o'clock.

In order to prevent the contagion of measles and
small-pox speeding among the troops quartered in
Chatham garrison, the authorities have given direc-
tions for the erection of a large tent on the vacant
piece of ground near St. Mary's Barracks, which
is to be devoted exclusively to hospital purposes ;
and the whole of the children and adults who are
now suffering from either small-pox," measles, or
any other infectious malady will be removed from
the b-arracks to the hospital tent, where they Will be
medically treated. By this arrangement it is hoped
that no new cases will appear in thezarrisbn.
The Glocester, 50, being fitted at Chatham for a
receiving ship, is ordered to be taken into the dock
vacated by the steamer Dragon, 6, in order to be
completed.

Tile following appointments were made yesterday
at the Admiralty :
Martin Roberts, second master, to the Coast
Guard ; W. N. Brabe, surgeon, additional, to the
Waterloo ; W. H. Cameron, surgeon, additional,
to the Illustrious ; Robert lursle, surgeon, addi-
tional, to the Nile ; Cunningham Atchison, amis.,
taut-surgeon, to the Orion ; George Bellamy, as-
sistant-surgeon, to the Hydra ; Edward O'Connell,
assistant-surgeon, to the Argus ; T. B. Martin, as-
sistant-surgeon, to the Racer ; H. P. Brenan and
Henry M. Bernard, clerks to the Caesar ; Edward
A. Dyer, assistant-clerk, to the Fisgard ; and C.
H. J. Colling, assistant-clerk, to the Omar.

Country Markets.

,D-JiNg 11.

Y. I.

48 1 Oats, per qr
24 34
48 I Peas, Partridge .......43 47
44 White 40 42
4 I Boiling 4l 47
40 Dun 43 46
44 Beans, Tick 37 3'9
132 Harrow ticks 37 41
73 Mazagan 34 31
731 Ditto, new 34 37