The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-25 00:00:00

:11, V ENING, JONE 25, 1858.

that subject has borne a r eference not to the principle of
self-election as applied to the consthution of some one
part of a particular body, but to the principle of self-
election when re,gariled as the only mesas by which en-
trance into such a bedy could be obteined. (Hean) If
you were to open only bee door into the Council—if
y6u were to ray that no person could enter it except by
the pleasure of a majority of that body as it was already
constituted, and consequently that no person could enter
it who did not share the opinions of tee majority—l
could well understand that under such a system the
grossest abuses would be likely to arise, and that the
opinion which once gained the upperband would be
likely permanently to retain its predominance. But
in the present case we propose a mutual check, a
mutual control; we propose that the Indian know-
ledge and experience of those who constitute a ma-
jority of the Council should be brought to bear in
the selection of now members, while, at the same
time, the Crown will exercise that check which it
ought to possess upon the inconvenience which would
arise if every vacancy were filled up according to the
principle of sel;-election. (Hear.) It is said, again, that
what we call election is really nomination in disguise. If
I entertained that view, the present is not a scheme
which I should venture to propose. In the first place, I
do not think that because men are themselves nominees,
therefore they are to be taken as having no will, no judg-
ment, no independence of their own, but as willing,
whatever their term of office, whatever their personal
eminence or character, to fulfil the pleasure of the Minis-
ter by whom they were first appointed. (Hear.) I do not
think that is a danger likely to arise in any case, but it
is a danger still less likely to arise when, as in the pre-
sent instance, even the nominated members of the Ceun-
cil will Le the creation, not of one, but of many succes-
sive Ministries. (Hear!) If I aei told that the proposed
self. election is virtually to abandon that elective princi-
ple which the house has sanctioned, my answer is that
we were willing—we are willing—to introduce the elec-
tive principle upon a wider scale if it were only possible
to find a fitting and satisfactory constituency. (Hear.)
I believe that to have recourse to the method of election
as a way of appointment to the Indian Council is the first
idea which has entered the mind of every person who has.
considered the subject. (Rear.) The eitficul,y which all
persons on further consideration have felt is that of con-
etituting a constituency which would answer the purpose.
We have been told that we should have retained matters
as they are, and gone back to the Court of Proprietors.
I have nothing to say against the ladies and gentlemen
who constitute that proprietary body, but I do say that
they do not possess any special Indian knowledge, and
that even their interest in the good conduct of Indian
affairs is indirect and remote. Although it might possi-
bly be expedient to continue them when they were found
in existence as part of a system which you wished to
modify by degrees, yet it is a different thing to say, when
you are recasting the system altogether, that you will
reintroduce into it that which has always been justly
considered as one of its most anomalous elements. (lean)
We take the resolution to which the committee came the
other night as conveying the sense in which it was un-
doubtedly understood by many of those who voted for it.
We believe that those aho supported the resolution did
so, not having reference to any special • instituency
which was in their minds, but from a desire to protest
by their votes against the exclusive and uncontrolled
right of appointment being vested in the Crown. (Bear,
hear.) I was always of opinion that if the Court of Pro-
prietors were to be retained at all, it should be so with
large additions and extensions. lam free to confess,
however, that every day's Experience has convinced rue
more and more that the creation of a constituency com-
posed of those who are connected with works of an in-
dustrial character in India—for example, the eharehold-
. ers in railways and other undertakings of that kind—
would be to introduce into the Council as element to
which some objection might be taken. (Hear.) I say so
upon this ground, that whereas a constituency for the
election of an Indian Council should in its essence be an
elective body only, and should not involve any idea of
representation, there is a danger that parsons connected
with particular undertakings would bind those whom
they elected to act as the representatives, not of India
or of England, but of the particular concerns in which
they were interested, and to push forward those tinier-
takings often, no doubt, to the disadvantage of other
corks equally pressing and important. (Hear, hear.)
Such are the reasons which have induced us, objecting
to the principle of exclusive nomination, and desiring to
carry out the resolution to which the committee came
the other night, to do so by the particular machinery
which we now propose. With respect to the proposal
of ten years' service or residence in India as a qualifi-
cation for a majority of the Connell, I have heard it ob-
jected to upon two grounds. The complaint has been
made frequently and publicly, but by those who cannot
have read the bill, that the practical effect of it must
be to limit the Council to the Indian civil and military
services. Now, that is obviously not the case. (Hear,
hear.) Oa the other hand, I have heard the objection
raised, that to introduce into the Council to
the extent of nearly a half men who have no special In-
dian knowledge or experience would be to turn it to
purposes for which it was not intended. My reply is,
that in stating that a majority of the Council ought to
be moo having Indian experience, our object is, in the
first place, to lay down a general principle, and then to
establish a maximum beyond which the number of mem-
bers not connected with India should not in any case
extend. We have no objection to the intr.nluction of
even a larger proportion of those who have special In-
dian experience (Rear.) I have received a communi-
cation from the chairman and deputy•chairman of the
Court of Directore, stating that the n.anber of those
qualified by service or residence in India should be two-
thirds instead of one-half. (Hear, hear.) We arc ready
to entertain that proposition; and to discuss it fairly iu
committee ; and certainly raj own belief is that, whe-
ther it be expedient to put such a proviso into the act
or not, an Indian Council, to be properly constituted,
ought to contain that proportion cl men of Indian expe-
rience and knowledge. (Hear.) There is one provision
which has been much canvassed, and on which, no doubt,
there is room for great difference of opinion-al mean the
prohibition against members of the Council serving in
Parliament. It may be to many men an ohjsct of ambi-
tion to fill at the saute time the position of a member of
Parliament and that of a member of the Council, and I do
not think that the mere objection that the whole time of
a member of the Council is required ought to weigh with
us in deciding that point, because, if it applies to a mem-
ber of the Council, it ought a fortiori to apply to a Se•
cretary of State and to all those who are carrying on,
with much more labour to themselves, the aeraieistrative
business of the conntry. Tbat is not the objection, there-
fore, upon which I shall rely in maintaining the prohibi-
tion to which I have alluded. But it seems to us, consi-
dering the close and confidential position in which these
gentlemen will be placed with respect to the Minister,
considering also the frequency of Indian discussions in
this house, that any man who by his office was a col-
league of the Minister in the Council, and who might
at the same time be an opponent of the Minister
in Parliament, would stand in two situations inconsist=
ent one with the other, and singularly unsatisfactory as
regards him elf. The tenure, of office we propose is a
tenure for life. We have considere 1 what objections
might arise to various kinds of tenure. Ido not deny
that all are liable to some objections. If a short term
were proposed, with the power of re-election, then the
independence of at least the nominated members would
bo entirely destroyed ; and if the members were ap-
pointed fora long term, then, though the difficulty I
Lave just mentioned would be g t rid of, another wou1:1
arise, for men advanced in years and infirm in health
might continue in office for one uniform period. Oa
the whole I think that the objections aga.ust a tenure
for life are lees considerable than. against any other
tenure. We propose, with a view of facilitating retire.
ment, that a retiring pension shall be alto wed on a large
and liberal scale. Time salaries of the members will be
1,2001. a-year each, and after ten years' service the re-
tiring pension will be 5001. a-year, and after 15 years'
service 8001., or two-thirds of the whole unary, after
which no further increase will take placs. Io the matter
of a retiring pension it is clear that there are two soppo-
site dangers against which it is necessary to guard, If
there should be a retiring pension after a sheet term of
years, then you run the risk of what might be called
jobbing—namely, of members being induced to retire
after a very short service to make room for others.
on the one hand, the retirement is to take place after a
long-extended service, then you induce men to hold on
after their services are no longer valuable. It is nece--
sary to strike the balance, and we propose to strike it
in the manner I have explaiced ; and, whatever retiring
allowances should be allotted to the members of the
council, it is desirable that they should be entitled to
claim them as a matter of right, and not as a matter of
favour. With respect to the salaries we do not desire to
measure the iiiportanceof the office created by the amount
of salary assigned. Those who have served in India,
and have retired from that service, generally retire
upon a retiring allowance calculated upon a liberal
scale ; and the ameuet of the salary assigned to the
members of Council is intended much more as wcompen-
sation to those gentlemen for the additional axpense con-
sequent on the necessity of, permanently residing in
London than as an equivalent in money for the services
they are asked to render. In the clauses which follow,
matters ariang cut of the amalgamation of the two offices
in Cannon-row and Leadenball-street are dealt with. It
may be convenient to mention, though it could not well
be inserted in the bill, what is the course of proceeding
we intend to adopt with respect to the traneac ion of
business. The who!e Indian question may be divided
among six committees with two members of Council in
each, assisted by a head clerk and the establishment. We
propose that all correspondence, with an exception here-
after to be named, shall originate in these committees,
and be sent up to the Secretary of State. If the corre-
spondence is judged by the committees, in the first in-
stance, or by the Secretary of State, to be of sufficient
importance to be laid before the whole Council, it will bo
in the power of either of the committees dr of the Secre-
tary of Siete to submit it to the whole Council ; and we
merely decline to state that all the butiliess should
be brought before the whole Council, as such a de-
claration would have the effect of encumbering the
whole Council with a mess of routine details. I have
heard a complaint that no provision is made for the meet-
ing of the Council at regular and stated pried,. I think
that that is a reasonalcOe objection, and therefore, when
the bill goes into committee, I propose to insert a clause
to the effect that the Cauncil should meet once a week,
unless prevented by urgent necessity. (Hear, hear )
That is to say, that the rule shall bo that the Council
shall meet at least once a week— (heat) ;—and the
only reason why I did not put this provision
in the bill was that by attempting to settle matters
of detail by Act of Parliament we run the ri k
of tying ourselves down to minute arrangemente
which practical experience might afterwards chow the
convenience of altering. The question has been put,
how far and in what sense is it intended that this
Council shall act as a check on the Minister ? I think
that on that point the debates which have taken place
in this house show the intention and desire of the Qc.

vernment. The object is, that the Council shoul•i have
a moral iefluence and control e that the Minister's de-
cision should be, as it is practically now, foal on all
matters, but that all the members of Clustcil should be
empowered to publicy and formally pretest, and if they
disapprove of the course taken by the Minister they may
compel him to record his reasons in writing. But lam
convinced that there is much more dangeref a Minister
leaning too much on his Council than neglecting their
advice. Ail the habits, tendencies, and ideas of English
life are such as utterly to discountenance public men
desiring to assume to themselves authority.and respon-
sibility beyond that which it imposed on them. I think
I am not wrong m saying that a far more prevalent dan-
ger is that of their desiring to shift responsibility and to
throw it on others, Se far from public men seeking to
extend their powers, it is much more likely that they
would endeavour to develops part of their powers on
others. The arrangements I have stated will insure the
necessity cf all business, with one exception hereafter to
be named, or'ginating with these committee?, where, it
will be dealt with by two members of Council for each
committee, while any business of importance would
afterwards be submitted to the whole Council. I have
rrf. rred to a single exception, which sfter much doubt
and hesitation we thought it, necessary to make, and it
consists in that which relates to the business now nomi-
nally transacted by the Secret Committed. I say
"nominally," because we have beard it again and again
publicly asserted that the Secret Committee is a delta
sion, and that the real power is actually vested in the
President of the Board. A, regards this . part of the
question, there were three couvee which might have been
adopted—either to throw open the whole business with •
out exception to the whole Council, or to elect tvo
or three members to constitute a secret committee,
or to seat a power in the Minister to deal with cer-
tain matters on his own responsibility. The objet
tion to the first course is, I think, obvious. The
practical effect of throwing open all the business to the
council would be to produce considerable delay in cases
of emergency. The second course, that of creating a
Secret Committee, who without the power of controlling
should have the right of being consulted by the Minis-
ter, appears very objectionable. If the Minister were to
choose the members of the Secret Committee, then the
cheek on him would be practically &usury ; and if the
Secret Committee were to be appointed by the Council,
then there would be this inconsistency—that the Minis-
ter would be compelled to accept as colleagues those
with whose selection he has nothing to do. The plan
we have to, propose is to vest the right in the Minister,
in case of necessity, to -deal with a certain plass of busi-
ness on his own authority, Ir seems io be an anomaly,
and something worse, if you greatly increase the respon-
sibility of the Minister to greatly diminish his power.
Though the bill does not make it compulsory on the
Minister to create a Secret Committee, it is optional for
him to do so ; but the bill leaves him the power to trust
to those in whom he has confidence ; and any man, how-
ever wild and rash, would shrink from that vast increase
of responsibility which he would necessarily acquire if,
knowing that he is provided with councillors in whom
he might coOde, he in any great emergency acted with-
out reference to them. In one word, though there may
be occasions when it may be necessary for a Minister to
act on his own authority, yet, in my judgment, those oc•
casiens ought to be rare and exceptional. If a Minister
were habitually, and in cases not urgently requiring
secrecy, to act upon his own authority, and without con-
sulting his Council—that is to say, if he were to extend
his authority beyond its present limits, through the me-
dium of the Secret Committee, that would be not only a
gross abuse of ghis power, but a violation of the spirit
and meaning of the Act. (Hear, hear.) With regard
to the question of finance, it was provided in the bill
of the noble lord (Palmerston) that no increase of ex-
penditure should take place without the consent of four
members of the Council. In omitting that provision we
certainly did not do so from ignorance of the .perils
which may arise if an uncontrolled discretion of increas-
ing expenditure be conferred upon a minister, nor from
_any desire to assume that power to ourselves. But it
appeared to us that such a provisiOn was totally inade-
quate for the purpose aimed at. We thought a check of
that nature would be illusory rather than real, and that
being illusory, itwould serve only as a screen, and would
prevent the applioa' on of that other and more efficient
kind of control upon which we rely. It seemed to us that
the object would be better attained by that on which I
think Parliament has a right to insist, and which Parlia-
ment has in its own hands to secure—namely, the regu-
lar, the periodical, and the minute publication of Indian
accounts. (Hear.) Moreover, it will be borne in mind
that both by the hill < f the noble lord and by that the
contents of which 1 am now stating, any member of the
Council has the power of protesting formally against any
measure to which he is opposed. Now, undoubtedly,
finance would never be comprised in the class of busi-
ness which would require secrecy. Tue Council must be
consulted upon it. Any member, as I have said, has the
power of protesting. If Parliament chooses to call for
such protest it may easily be made public, and in that
manner there is, as it seems to me, afar more real and
effectual control than could be given by a mere provision
that no increase of expenditure shall take place unless
the minister has the support of four members of a coun••
cil, come of whom are named by himself. With regard
to those important provisions in the bill which deal with
the Indian army, there is one point on which I think it
right to make a clear statement, because lam afraid it is
not very clearly set forth in the bill. I noticed only to-
day that, one of the clauses relating to this subject was
drawn in rather au obscure manner. Now, we propo e
that. the civil service of India shall, as before, remain
open to competition, acid in addition to that we propose
wholly and ueressrvedly to open to competition what
are called the scientific branches of the military service.
As to the other cadetships—those in the non-scientific
branch of the service—we propose that a small propor-
tion, one-tenth, should ge to t .ns of civil -or mili-
tary servants in India who may be considered deserving
of that To the remainii•g military patronage
we have applied as riearly as possible the precedent of the
state of things which now prevails. Iu dealing with thin
branch of the subject our general wish was to continue
for the present, with as few modifications as possible,
the system which now exists. I say for the present, be-
cause it appears to us, as it has probably appeared to all
woo are jute:este(' in Indian affairs, that circumstances
wholly independent of those measures which are before
the house—wholly independent of the course of legisla-
tion which we have been pursuing during the present
session—independent, I may almost say, of the question
of the continuance c-f the Company, may require an en-.
tire reorganisation of the Indian army, or at all events
the native portion of it. Now, any attempt at this mili-
tary reorganisation would be for the present premature;
and we therefore propose that the whole subject should
be investigated by means of a commission, to consist of
12 members—three of these members to be officers of the
Indian army, three of them officer's of the Qeeen'e army
who have served in India, three to be civilian gentleman.
of eminence, and the remaining three official personages
who are principally concerned in this matter, viz , ttte
Commander-in• Chief, the Secretary of State for War, and
the President of the B tard of Control. To that commis-
sion, so constituted, we intend to nfer an it quiry, the
heads of which include the relative proportions of the
European and the native force, the question whether the
European army should be local or one for general service,
whether exchanges from one branch to another are loos-
Bible, and generally on what terms the transfer af the dom.-
patty'e army to the Crown should take place. Pending
that inquiry it is not our wish to antieioate the result
which may flow from it; but this I say 'freely and ear-
nest'y, that I am cer ta,la Perlia,men wiil consent to no
arrangement—and I can answer for- the Geiser/talent
that they will consent to none—whicb, however plausible
cr convenient it tedg,,t ppear, should have the effeet of
render ng entrance into, or promoion in, the Indian
army mere difficuit than it now is to te'ent and to mei i t
unaided by patronage, or Mitch shoald tutroducs int
that army Parliamentary or )-'1 3r influences injurious to
its efficiency. (Cheers.) Toe whole question, however,
must necessarily come before Parliament again, and,
until it does, our object is to maintain things nearly as
they ape at present, with such modifications only as may
relieve us from the necessity of making further altera-
tions without' full and ample time for consideration.
tllear, hear.) There is one clause in the bill, the 29th,
which we find both in the noble lord's hill and in that
introduced by the present Government. I mean the
provision which vests in the Governor-General the
appointment of the members of the council in India. I
cannot but admit that that proposition, although on the
one hand it was capable of defence, has on the other
hand been received with apprehension and alarm by
many persons whose opinions on such a subject are en-
titled to the highest consideration. (Rear, hear.) They
argue that a Governor-General or the Governor of a
Presidency even at present has a very large and un-
limited power in his hands, and that it would be
dangerous to increase that power by making his col-
leagneejat the Council •dependent .on his will. (Hear.)
I do not propose to abandon the clause, but I wish to
say distinctly that I have retained it in the bill only in
order that it may receive a full and fair discussion, we
holdiog ourselves at liberty, if the sense of the house and
the judge-rent of those hest conversant with the subject
should be adverse to our proposal, to reconsider, and if
necessary, to alter the clause. (Cheers.) With respect
to the question of finance, as I apprehend that will be
fully discussed in committee, I shall Fay nothing more at
present than tkat I have heard nothing which has lee
me to believe that these whose fortunes depend upon
the security of Indian finance will have that security
in any the slightest degree diminished. (Rear, hear.)
There is a provision in the bill for eendieg out a corn-
mission to investigate the financial state of India.
Now, I believe that such an inquiry is very necessary
and very advisable ; but it has been urged with great
force that any investigation of that kind ought to
come through the Governor-General; that it ought
to take place with his sanction, in deference to his au-
thority, and should not, as it were, be a power set up to
check and control him. (Hear, hear.) On that ereued I
shall withdraw the clause in questien, and communicate
with the Indian Government as to the beet method by
which the same end may be attained, (Rear, hear.)
These are the provisions of the bill. I will onl sty in
conclusion that I think we rue some risk of exaggerat-
ing the importance for good or for evil of legi lotion of
this kind carried on in this house. What we call a bill
for the future Government of India is really only a bill
to provide what we believe will be a more effsetive inea.•
sure for supervision and control at a distance (1 the Go-
vernmeet of India. No doubt elthetivo supervision and
control are valuable. and even indispensable; but, do
what you witl heie, the real stress, thtereel pressure will
be upon the Government in India—(hear, hear)—and
even there, where the pressure is greatest, I believe the
Government of India must depend, not upon any inge-
nious machinery which you can contrive for its work-
ing, but upon the living energy of able and wr l!-chosen
men whom you must, to meet the varying and unfore-
seen circumstances which will from time to time arise,
invest with large authority, and to whom you must give
an ample and a generous confidence. (Beer.) Ido net
propose this bill as a measure to remedy all the abuses

and grievances of which complaints have b !en made with
regard to our Indian administration. Impose it simply
for what it 13—as a reform which, I believe, will lead to
other reforms— (hear, hear)—and without which those
other reforms could not bo so easily or conveniently
carried on.. I propose it as a- necessary and desira-
ble simplification of a system of government which all
persons acknowledge to be complicated and cumbrous,
and es the rectification cf an anomaly which has en-
dured too long, and which at the present day can serve
no useful purpose. I propose it as the substitution for
a provi,ional form of government of a more permanent
and I believe, more salutary form of administration, and
as a measure which will vest the government of that
great dependency of England, India, in the English
Crown, and will place it wider ;the direct authority en
English Minister, responsible to this house and to the
public opinion of England. (Cheers.) The noble lord
concluded by moving that the bill be read a second time.
Mr. BRIGHT did not rise for the purpose of opposing
the sec-md reading of the bill. On nthe contrary, if any
hon. member thought proper to dividas the hens° he would
vote with the noble lord. Re must say, however, that
there were a geed many clauses in the bill to which be
entertained serious objections. Some of them would, be
hoped, be amended as the bill passed through commit-
tee ; Lott if that were not the case he could only hope
that, as the Bill of 1853 was abandoned in 1858, within
the next five years the House of Commons would take
s nne further steps with regard to this question, with the
view of simplifying the government of India as carried
on in England. He wished to take this opportunity of
making some observations upon the general question of
Indian government, which it might have been out of
place to make during the discussion of the various reso-
lutions that had been agreed to by the house. He thought
it must have struck every boo, member that, while two
Governments bad proposed great chaeges with regard to
the government of India, ne good case had really been
made out for such cbauges in the speeches of the noble
lord and the right hon. gentleman by whom those bills
had been introduced. (Hear, and a laugh.) That opinion,
he knew, would meet with a response from two or three
hon. gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the house.
(Hear.) It had occurred to him when the noble lord at
the head of the late Government introduced his bill —and
he made the observation 'when the present Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer brought fcrtvard his measure—
that if the house knew no more of the question than
they learned from the speeches of those right hoe, gen-
tlemen they could not form any clear notion .why it was
proposed to overthrow the East India Company. The
honourable member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles) had
expressed a similar opinion several times during the pro•
grass of the discussion. The right honourable mem-
ber for Carlisle had said that the East India Com-
pany was dealt with in the manner in which animals in-
tended for sacrifice were treated in Eastern countries
and ancient times,—that they were decked with garlands
when they were led out for immolation. That was true ;
but it did not therefore follow that the house was quite
right in the course it was taking. It must be clear that
the moment the House of Commons met this session
there was only one course which the then Government
could adopt with reference to this question. A feeling
existed throughout the country—he believed he might
say it was universal—that for a long time past the go-
vernment of India had not been a good government ;
that grave errors—if not grievous crimes—had been
committed in that country. He thought the conscience
of the nation had been touched on this question, and
they came by a leap, as it were—by an irrepressible in-
stinct— to the conclusion that the East India Company
must be abolished, and that another and, as the nation
hoped, a better government should be established for
that country. There was a general impression, arising
from past discussion in Parliament, that the in-
dustry of the people of India bad been grievously
neglected ; that there was great reason for comnlaint
with respect to the administration of justice; and that
with regard to the wars entered into by the Indian Go-
vernment there was much of which the people of Eng-
land had reason to be ashamed. (Hear.) It was said that
these faults were to be attributed to the Bard of Con-
trol ; but he (Mr. Blight) had never defended the Board
of Control. He, believed everything the East India
Company bad said of the Board of Control—to its dis-
credit—(a laugh)—and he believed that everything the
Board of Control had said to the discredit of the East
India C impany was perfectly true. (Cheers and laugh-
ter.) He hoped his boo. friend (Mfr. Mangles) would
not require any further expression of opinion upon that
point. (A. laugh. There was also a general impression
that the expenditure of the East India Government was
excessive, and it had been proved before more than one
committee that the taxes imposed upon the people of India
were onerous to the last degree. These subjects were dis-
cussed in 1853, at which time, in his opinion, the change
now proposed ought to have been effected. Subsequently
the calamitous events of 1857 and 1858 occurred, and
the nation came at once to the conclusion—a conclusion
which ho thought no disinterested person could resist—
that it was impossible that India and its vast population
could any lender be retained under the form of govern-
ment which had existed up to this period. If, then, a
change was inevitable, the question was how it should be
accomplished and what should be done. He thought it
was quite clear the course the noble lord had pursued
was right—viz., that of insisting that during this pre-
sent sessi and without delay, the foundation of all
reform in then, government of India should be commenced
at home, because they could not take a single step with
regard to any real and permanent improvement in the
Indian government until they reformed what he might
call the basis of that government by the changes effected
in this country. What, then, was the change which was
proposed, and which ought to be made-I For his own
part, in considering these questions, he could not alto-
gether approve the bill now before the house. What they
wanted with egard to the government of India was that
which in common conversation was called "a little more
daylight." They wanted more simplicity and more re-
sponsibility. (Hear.) He (Mr. Bright) bad objected to
the scheme originally proposed by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer because it did not provide these requisites.
That i eiemirso closely resembled the system they were
about to overthrow that he (Mr. Bright) could not bring
himself to regard iv favourably. In considering the sub-
ject before Parliament met be asked himself this sues-
tion:—" Suppose there had never been an East India.
Company or any such corporation—suppose India bad.
teen conquered by the forces of the Crown, commanded
by generals acting under the authority of the Crown—
how should •ne then have proposed to govern distant do.
minions of vast extent, and with a population that could
scarcely be counted?" He believed such a system of go-
vernment as hid heretofore existed would never have
been established, and if such a system had not existed
he was convinced that no Ministry would have proposed
the plea now submitted to the house. He thought
the Go: eminent would have been placed in the bands of
a Secretary of State, with his secretaries, clerks, and
staff of officers, or of a small board, so small as to pie-
vent responsibility from being diffured and divided, if
not actually destroyed. He suspected that the only rea-
son why the country or Parliament would be disposed
to approve the large Council proposed was that they had
seen something like a Commit, formerly of 24, and sub-
sequently of 18 members, and be believed there was
sum ,thing like timidity on the part of the house, and
probably on the part of the Government, in making so
peat e change as he sugg. steel to the simple plan which
would probably have existed had no such body as the,
East India Company ever been established. He was
willing to admit candidly that if the Government of India
athotno as greatly-siniplified it would be necessary
that very important changes should be made in the Go-
vernment of Lydia. (blear, hear.) lie agreed with the
nOble lord (Stanley) that the representatives of the
Crown in India must have power as well as responsi-
bilty ; that they should be enabled to deal with emer-
gencies— (hear, hear)—and to settle the hundred and
thousand questions that must arise hourly among
100,000,000 of people, without sending 10,000 miles to
this country to ask questions which ought to be settled
at once by some competent authority en the spot.
(Hear, hear.) There were two modes of governing India,
and the hon. member for Leominster (Mr. Willoughby),
who had been a very distinguished servant of the East
India Company, bad publicly expressed his views upon
this question. He (Mr. Bright) had been very much
struck with a note attached to the published report of
that speech, referring to the multifarious duties dis-
charged by the directors of the East India Company;
That note stated that

"A despatch may be received containing 60, or 100,
or 200 cases; and the despatch, in itself voluminous,
is rendered more 83 by collections attached to it,
containing copies of all former correspondence on
the subject or subjects, of all letters written thereon
by various local officers, and all papers relating thereto.
There has not tong since been in the Rev-mere Depart-
ment a despatch with 16 263 pages of collections. In
1845 there was one in the same depaitment with 46,000
pages, and it was stated that Mr. Canning some years
since in the House of Commons mentioned a military
despatch to which were attached 13,511 pages of collec-
tion." The hon. gentleman did not say in his speech
anybody at the It:dia.-house ever read all these things.
(Hear.) It was quits clear that if the directors were to
p-etend to go through a waggon-load of documents
coining to Leadenhalbstreet every year it must only be
a pretence, 'and that if they wanted to persuade the
House tbat they gave attention to only one-tenth part
of that matter they must think the Ilcuse more credo-
Ima than they were in matters of that kind. (Cheers.)
That was one mode of governing India. It was the
mode which had been adopted and the mode which had
failed. If they were to have the details settled here be
was perfectly certain they would have no good govern-
ment in India. (Hear, hear.) He bad alluded on a
firmer occasion to a matter which occurred in a com-
mittee. A gentleman who was examined stated that
be had undertaken to tir.iw a more wholesome beer and
quite as good as that exported for the supply of the
troops, somewhere in the P. eaidency of Madres, for one-
sixth of the price paid by Government for that exported
to India from England ; that the experiment was com-
pletely succueseful ; that the memorandum or record
with regard to it was sent home, no doubt forming part
of the thuusands of pages iu the collection ; and that it
was Luried in the heap in which it came, because for
years nothing wan heard of a proposition which would
have Eased the Government a very large amount annu:

ally, and opened a new industry Co the population and
capital of India. (Bear, Lear.) He believed that
this Eya'.ern of government was one of delay and dis-
appointment—one, actually, of impossibility—one wit ich
could by no means form a complete theory of govern-
ment as held by any persons in the House (hear, hear)
and that the other, the simpler system, which be
would wich the House to undertake, was one
action, progress, and results, with regard to India, such
as they had never yet seen and never would see anti
there was a complete simplification of the Indian 'go-
vernnoeut in this country. (flew.) He came to the clues-
tiou—and it was for this question that he wished princi7

__-r-~

nade with
it pimply
lead t',

iien those
Iveniently
sd desira-
which all
Arnbrouq,
has en

can wive

tution for
,srmanent

Ition, and
it of that
Eng!it'll
rity
r.ld to the
noble lord
ind time.

opposing
ry, if any
3 he wou!d
ever, tl.a►t
which he
would, he

a com it-

ally hope
8, within
ould take

r, with the

'l3 carried

tunity of
lestion of

en out of

lOUs rt-so-
e thought
while two
regard to
Ally been
the noble
hose bills
t opinion,
) or three
be house.
le lord at
bill —and
Chancel-
teasure—

;icn than

Lou. gen-
by it was
ny. The
gles) bud
g the pro•
Dle mem-

dia Com-
imals in-
countries
garlands
vas true ;
eras quite
:tear that
s sessiort

vernnient
L feeling
he might
t the go-
ernment ;
Sad been
inscience

lion, and
;ssible
in-
Jompany
le nation
Lishcd for
), arising
the in-
rievously
iomplaint
and that
dian Go-
of Eng-
said that
of Con-
he Board
ast India

) its dis-
thing the
the East
nd laugh-
-3) woti'!
Jpou that
apression
neat wAS
than one
e of India
wsre dis-
le change
lequently
rred, and
onclusion

resist—
opulation
f govern-

!, then, a
should be
tought it
pursued
this pre-
ion of all
nmenced
step with
tt in the
he might
I effected
Moll was
his own
not alto-
That they
was that
ttle more

more re-
jected to
or of the
;quiviteg.
bey were
lot bring
the sub-
Ids quee-
ast India
ndia had
amended

Crown
sta n t do-
-Ist could
sus of go-
ver have
existed
proposesl
thought
hands of
rks, and
s to pi e-
vidcd, if
only rea-
disposed
they had
rind sub-
aere was

use, and
tkitig so
11 which
r as the
He was
of India
ectscary
the Go-
willt the
3 of the
esponsi-

emer-
red and
among
milts to
settled
spot.
g India,
ughby),
he East
-s upon
y much
port of
es dis
tnpany;

Dr 100,
urinous,

to it,
;nce on
thereon
hereto.
Deport-
as. In
46,000
e years
nilitary
collec-
speech
things.
were to

record
g part
that it
Ise for
would