The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-11 00:00:00

EVENING, JUNE 11, 1858.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.--(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took h!s seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
THE SHREWSBURY PEERAGE.
The Earl TALBOT took the oaths and his seat as Earl
of SHREWSBURY.
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.
This bill was read a first time.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Oa the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the following
bills were read a second time : —Andover Canal Rail-
way, B-lfast and County Down Railway, Doan Forest
Turnpike Tr ust,EaA Kent Railway (Western Extension),
Horsham Turnpike Tru 0-, London, Brighton, and South
Coast Ra4way (Shoreham to Hentield, &c.), London and
South-Western Railway, Salisbury and Yeovil Railway,
Waterford Gas, Waterford and Kilkenny Railway
(Capital), Wexford Harbour Embankment, Chiswick
Improve-trent ; Portsmouth Railway ; Corris, Machynl-
leth, and River Dove), Tratnroai Llandaff Districts
Markets ; and Taunton Water.
The Westminster Palace Hotel Company (Limited)
Bill was read a third time and passed.

BILLS OF EXCHANGE.
Lord BROUGHAM laid on the table a bill to render
penal fraudulent negotiations of bills of ex,:hange. The
bill simply consisted of a single clause, which roach-I.s
a person convicted of such an ottince liable to four
yaara' penal servitude, or such other punishment as the
(mutt might think fit to infl ct.
The bill was read a fir,t time.
THE ABOLITION OF PROPERTY QUALIFICA-

the people of England were entire'y opposed. The expo
rience to be derived from the proceedings of foreign
countries of late years was not lost upon our own. In
France, as their lordships were aware, the inhabitants
had, in his opinion unfortunately, thought fit, instead of
reforming by constitutional means a form of government
which was defective and corrupt, to establish a system of
extreme democracy. What had been the consequence ?
.Why, that the system bad been found to be so oppressive
that those who lived under its influence had become al-
-1 most universally desirous of a change. That cbange bad
ultimately been brought about. The sys.em of extreme
democracy had been superseded, ands form.of govern-
ment established in which the Emperor was practically
absolute. (Hear, hear.) Their lordships were also
:lea-es that in the United Stites of America a
constitution of extreme democracy bad been tried—
and tried, too, under circumstances far more favourable
than could in an older society and a more thickly
re-inlet country be fairly auticipa'ed —yet we knew, not
only from the observation of travellers, but from the tes-
timony of some of the most enlightened citizens of those
States, that in proportion as the checks on democracy
had been removed, in the same proportion chcayed that
liberty which consisted in freedom of action, of thought,
and of speech upon the part of individuals, and the en-
joyment of that full security of person and proper y
which prevailed under the protection of equal law:, fairly
and firmly administered—(hear)—while at the same time
:here had been an increase of corruption and a diminu-
tion of efficiency for good, not only of the general Go-
vernment, but of the separate Governments of individual
States. Such was the present state of things in America,
according to the best testimony ; and he could not help
feeling that the example of that country had its due
weight with the inhabitants of our own, who, he felt a,-
cured, were by no means desirous to alter our constitu-
tion, in order to assimilate it with that which existed at
the other side of the Atlantic. But, although he f-it
persuaded that such ae he bad described it to be was
the general inclination of the peop'e of these king-
doms, yet it was, he thought, impossible not to per-
ceive that the usual means by which the balance of
a constitution was changed was by having recourse
to gradual and petty alteraiions—(hear)—none of
which were perhaps of extreme importance in them-
selves, but each of which tended to consequences upon
which there was much reason to look with apprehen-
sion. (hear.) There could, for instance, be no doubt that
the avowed policy of that party in this coun`ry which
sought to effect extreme changes in our form of govern-
ment was—being hopeless of carrying out their objects
if they proposed to do so openly and directly—to use
their own language, to obtain that in detail which they
were unable to procure in gross. (Hear.) That was the
'node of action which was adopted, and it was, he
feared, a policy which was all the more likely to prove
successful owing to the fact that, although the party
by which it was adopted was at present weak in com-
parison with others, yet it wielded a power in conse-
quence of the divisions subsisting between those other
parties far greater than it ought, and also owing to the
circumstance that a disposition had been exhibited among
the public men of various parties to bid for the support
of those for whom, as a general role, they differed on
political matters by concurring in the various measures
which the party to which he referred deemed it its duty
to propose. (Hear.) From a tendency such es that he
should confess he believed great danger to the country
was likely to arise; and it was his observa'ion of the
ex:stence of that tendency which rendered him so reluc-
tant to give his assent to the passing of the bill before
the house. But, in giving expression to those views, he
must not be understood as being opposed to a deliberate
and well-considered revision of cur representative sys
tern. Upon the contrary, he was of opinion that the
time which had elapsed since 1832 had rendered such a
revision desirable, if not necessary. He wished it, how-
ever, to be effected only after sober and calm deliberation.
(Hear.) Meantime he strongly objected to being asked
to take small steps year after year, which some people
were disposed to regard as being of no consequence,
but which tended to throw additional power into the
hands of those by whom those radical changes to which
he had referred were sought to be effected, and which,
if prosecuted to a successful issue, would only serve to
stimulate their appetite and to lead them on the accom-
plishment of objects the attainment of which he could
not look urn otherwise than with dismay. (Hear.)
In any well considered measure of Parliamentary reform
which might be introduced it would, ho felt convinced,
be found necessary that some changes should be effected
which were not altogether c f a popular character, and
which should have for their object tberemoval of defects
which were not those dwelt upon by ordinary popular
orators, but which at the came time must not be regarded
as the ess substantial or important. Now, if any alte-
rations of that character should be found to be necessary,
it was, he thought, extremely expedient that their lord-
ships should, as a measure of common prudence, abstain
from making concessions on their part until they knew
what concessions would be made on the other side.
(Hear.) Fur these reasons he regretted extremely that
such a measure as that under their notice should be
allowed to pass without a single word of explanation
from her Majesty's Government. Upon a subject of
such transcendent importance they had a right to de-
mand that they should not be led blindfolded along a
path of which they could not see the end. (Hear.) He
should, therefore, call upon noble lords opposite, who
concurred with him as to the necessity of exercising
great caution in dealing with a question so grave to
watch with duo care the conduct of their leaders.
If their leaders would only stand by them as they
ought, he saw no reason to suppose that it was not
possible that the entire question might not be fairly and
satisfactorily settled. If, however, those leaders should
pursue a different course, and, trusting to the aid of
that party to which they had hitherto acted, should at
the same time seek by dangerous concessions to'earn the
support of those who differed widely from them in peliti-
cal principles, then might the consequences which would,
follow turn out to be formidable indeed. (Hear.) Now,
the expectation had been held out to the country that
in the course of next session a general measure of Par-
liamentary Reform would be introduced by her Majesty's
Government, and if they were prepared to act upon that
intimation he should beg to impress upon them the greet
importance of taking—before they even entered upon
the consideration of their proposed scheme—some steps
to collect, by means of able and trustworthy persons,
information bearing upon the subject. He believed that
an immense amount of statistical and other information
might be obtained by persons fitted for the duty, and
would throw great light on the best means of improving
the constitution of the House of Commons. He hoped
that if Goternment intended to bring forward a measure
of reform next session they would, during the present
autumn, take steps to collect such information and place
it before Parliament. (Hear, hear.)

Lord EBURY confessed that he was a little astonished
at some of the observations made by his noble friend,
but he should not now trouble their lordships by die-
cussing the five points of the Charter, or other large
measures of reform which might be desi►ed by any
party in the country or in Parliament. He did not
agree with his noble friend in thinking this a very un-
important measure. It had been his miefortuno to
serve upon committees of the other House, appointed
to inquire into the validity of the property qualifications
of two members, and the proceedings of those commit-
tees were so tedious and protracted that he was con-
vinced the House of Commons would desire to be
relieved from duties of this disagreeable character.
Here, then, was one not unimportant advantage which
would be conferred by a repeal of the law. That law,
however, as it stood, was but a delusion and a 'mare,
and on this ground, too, he would support the present
measure. Nor did he see why they ought to quarrel
with the noble earl at the head of the Government for
adopting this reform. Why should not the noble earl
be allowed to change his mind on this and on other
subjects, even though he might formerly have pro-
nounced decided opinions of a different kind I He
(Lord Ebury) should give his vote fur the Dill, and was
glad to understand that it was not likely to be opposed
by the Government. (Hear.)

The Duke of RUTLAND was afraid the noble lord
who had just sat down would have to "go the whole
hog" on the five points of the Charter, and perhaps some-
thing more, if ho allowed himself to be influenced by a
desire to relieve hon. members from the difficulties to
which they were now exposed. He believed that no re-
spectable man was prevented from obtaining a seat in
the other house by the law as it stood, and be should,
therefore, enter his protest against the repeal of that
law.

The Earl of DERBY (who was indistinctly heard)
said,—lf I did not rise immediately after the noble earl
(Fortescue) it was not from the slightest wish to conceal
the opinion I have formed upon this subject, but merely
becau'e, not intending myself to offer any opposition to
the second reading of the bill, and understanding that it
was the intention of the noble earl who spoke second
(Earl Grey) to offer some opposition to it, I was anxious
to hear what arguments he was prepared to submit. I
confess it has been satislactory to me to fin-1 that my
opinioes with regard to this bill are in a great measure
shared by the noble earl, and that, instead of oppos-
ing the bill—as I expected he would do—he has con-
fined himself to making certain observations, not so
much w;th regard to the measure itself as to the pos-
sible consequences which he thought might follow
its adoption,. I agree with the noble earl in the
opinion he expressed that the bill is in itself of very
trifling and immaterial importance, and I also agree with
him in the view which he takes of the danger of some
ulterior measures with which he sought to connect this
bill, but with which I confess I em not able to see any
connection. Whenever measures of a character dangerous
to the constitution may be proposed nothing will give
me greater satisfaction than to find that in resisting
them—as I should resist them on whatever side i f the
House I might happen to sit—l have the conscientious
support and assistance cf the noble earl. I must con-
fess, however, that while the noble earl will find no one
more sincerely and conscientiously opposed than myself
to tie democratic measures which he announced his
determination to resist, I see no necessity for the solensn
warning he gave to those with whom I have the honour
of acting to be cautious that their leaders do not place
them in a dangerous position. I am sure the Conserva-
tive party will be deeply grateful for the noble earl's ad-
vice, and I hope they will give it due weight. What-
ever importance they may attach to his recommendations
I am sure they will attach great value to his promise of
assistance in resisting the progress of extreme measures.
The question is, however, how far the Bill now before
us is connected with the other measure to which
the noble earl has referred. The noble earl says that
the proposal to abolish the property qualification, is sup-

ported by a party who will demand a' redistribution of
electoral districts, the vote by bailee the shorienieg of
the duration of Parliaments, and a very large extension
of the suffrage, all of which, as I understood, the noble
earl is determined to oppose.
Earl GREY was understood to say that what he had
stated was, that these proposals, considered as a whole,
and without any compensating measures on the other
side, would amount to a revolution, and so they would.
(" Hear," and a laugh.)
The Earl of DERBY—Then, I want to know how far,
in the opinion of
.the noble earl, the measure is revelu-
tiona,ry. The noble earl has said that the bill is utterly
unimportant and immaterial. I inuet protest, then,
against his coupling his objections to this b 11 with his
onjeations to other measures, which, he sae, taken
altogether and unaccompanied by any compensation
would be equivalent to a revolution. Does it follow be-
caime the House of Commons are prepared to sanction
this measure that they are also prepared to sauction the
other measures to which the noble earl has referred I
The noble earl has alluded to secret voting ; but the
Fame House of Commons which regards the bill now
before us as a perfectly safe and immaterial measure
was not prepared to give its sanction to what
the noble earl regarded as a revolutionary element
—namely, the dangerous measure of vote by ballot, for
in a very full house that measure was rejected by the
House of Commons by a very large majority. I believe
that at this moment the House of Commons is eueaged in
considering another of the measures to which the noble
sail referred, and it is impuesible for me to say at what
conclusion that house may arr ve. The noble sail, who
seems to think that her Majesty's Government will give
their support to all the measures which may be sent up
to this house by the House of Commons, has alluded to
the measure which may be sent up founded upon Mr.
Locke King's proposition to extend the 101. franchise
to counties. I can disabuse the noble earl of any impre.-
sion he may have formed by assuring him that such a
measure will meet with the most strenuous opposition I
can offer to it. (Cheers.) It will be r your lordships if
any of the measures to which the noble earl has re ferred
should come under your consideratien during the present
session, to express your opinion upon each cf them singly
and separately, according to the merits of each proposi-
tion, and without reference to those other questions with
which it is supposed they may be connected. With re-
gard to the bill now before us, although I am notaexious
either for its adoption or rejection, I am not prepareo t
offer any opposition to a measure which immediately
affects the composition of the House of Common', winch
has been pasesd by that house, and which appears to me
of such intrinsic unimportance that it ought not to be
allowed to add to the causes of difference which exist ee-
tween the two houses. If I thought that the existing law
afforded an actual security for the independence the sta-
tion, and the position of those who sit in the House of
Commons, and that the adoption of this bill would mater
T-
ally diminish the status and position of members of teat
house, I should hesitate long bele re I acceded to the pas s-
ing of the meaeure, although it comes up to us recom-
mended by a large majority of the House of Commons.
But when I find that from time to time the law upon
this subject has been relaxed; that the question has
always been dealt with, not as part of a great measure
of reform, but as a separate meaeure ; that in the ccurse
of the present reign the rigour of the previous provi-
sions, which required that the qualification of members
should consist exclusively of lauded property, has been
relaxed and extended to property of every kind ; arid
when I see that the amount of qualification required is
not, in the present day, what can be regarded as a
guarantee for the independence of any man who taixes
in society, and who has to maintain his position as a
member of the House of Commons—such a guarantee
of independence as would withdraw him from the exer-
cise of undue influence—l confess it does not appear to
rue that the alteration proposed by this bill would effect
any real and eubstan ial change in the position of mem-
bers of the House of Commons. There is one difficulty
which I certainly do anticipate, and which I think re-
quires some consideration before this measure is sanc-
tioned. I refer to the probability—or, at all events the
possibility—that the absence of any qualification may
lead t', vexatious contests and to vexatious opposition—
(bear, hear)—by putting up on the hustings men of
straw, merely with the view of causing vexation and
annoyance. (Hear, hear.) I know I may be asked
whether such instances Lave occurred in Scotland, where
no qualification for members of Parliament is required—
(hear, hear)—and how a system can be defended
with reference to English members of Parlia-
ment which is not considered necessary in the case of
Scotch members, Ido not say now whether I think it
desirable or not that the bona fide qualification of mem-
bers of the House of Commons should be of a somewhat
higher character. I do not agree with the noble earl
who introduced the bill that the requirement of a qual -
fication is a violation, of any of those civil and natural
rights which belong to individuals. [Earl Fortescue
was understood to say that he did not state that as hie
own opinion, but that it was entertained by some per-
sons.] lam gratified to learn that the noble cart does
not rely upon that principle, but when I find that the
qualification of members of the House of Commons has,
trom time to time, been altered and relaxed ; that such
steps have been taken, apart from all measure,; of reform,
that the law relating to qualification, such as it is, has
in many cases, almost by the connivance of the House
of Commons, been evaded ; that almost any person may
obtain—l do not say whether justifiably or not —a
qualification which is not real ; that the fact of qua•
hfications being so granted, may, owing to blueders
or bungling on the part cf lawyers, lead comeara-
tively innocent men into the commission of ap-
parently great offences, which no one thinks
very discreditable, but which may expose them
to grave censures and animadversion, and subject
them to heavy penalties—when I find that this is the
case, and that the House of Commons, by a considerable
majority, have sent up to your lordships a bid with the
view of abolishing a requirement which is in many in-
stances evaded, I think—apart from questions upon
which we may have, and have had, considerable diffe-
rence with the House of Commons, and others which
may come before us, upon which it may be necessary
and essential that we should make a stand against dan-
gerous propositions emanating from that assembly—that
io point of policy and wisdom it is is not advisable and
expedient, if your lordships think this subject is really
and substantially immaterial, that for the purpose of
keeping upa vain and shadowy app. arance of qualifica-
tion you should unnecessarily put yourselves in opposi•
tion to the House of Commons upon a question which
materially and directly and exclusively concerns the
composition of that house. (fleas.) For these reasons,
without saying that I should have thqugkt it necessary
to introduce a measure of this kind, but finding that it
has been introduced, and has received the eeseut of the
House of Commons. and believing that it would be
practically innocuous—that, if unproductive of any very
considerable benefit, it weuld be perfectly immaterial, I
certainly am not disposed to effer any opposition to the
bill, reed I would humbly advise your lordships not to
reject it. (Hear, hear.)
Toe Duke of NEWCASTLE said, that as the bill ap-
peared to have been supported by faint praise, and, on
other hand, to have been opposed by hesitating
he was anxious to explain that he supported the bill on
its merits, because he thought it important in itself and
in its consequences. The noble duke opposite said he
opposed the hie!, because he did nut think that any
grievance existed in consequence of the present state of
the law I but it was astonishing that the noble duke
should have made such an assertion, when their lord-

ships had heard that a gentleman was now undergoing
imprisonment for a violation of the Jaw, when they
heard from the noble earl who moved the bill that

that violation was participated in by nearly one-half
of the members of the Douse of Commons, and after
they had heard the evidence f a noble lord behind
him as the results of election committeee. (Rear, hear.)
He bad had himself a great marl years txperience of
the House of Commons, and had eat on election commit-

tees, and he recollected instances of hardship occurring
in both directions. Gentlemen notoriously not pos-
sessed of the qualification required by law had had their
seats disputed, but bad been sewed on petitions;
on the ether hand, gentlemen notoriously po:ssessed of
ample qualification, but in whose title lawyers found
means to detect certain flaws, bad actually been un-
seated on a technicality of law. The noble earl who op-
posed the bill considered this matter as part of a great
constitutional change, and the bill as a concession to a
party advocating greater and more extersive changes.
Now, he could not conceive that this was a great change
in the constitution. The present law was not very an-
cient in its origin, but was introduced by an act of the
9th of Queen Anne, under the Harley Government, and
was passed for a special party purpose. The stock-brokers
and merchants t f that day were opposed to the Govern-
ment, and therefore, to throw the balance in favour of
the Government, the act was passed, essentially in-
tended to exclude the trading interest, from the House
of Commons, and requiring a landed qualification for
members. So the law ranained until about 20 years
ago, when a mitigation of the law was introduced, and
the same amount of qualification in personal estate WAS
placed on an equal tooting with a landed qualification.
(11, ar, hear.) Still, a great many anomalies remained
in respect to this matter at the present moment. The
Scotch members, the members for the universities, and
the eldest sons of peers, needed not to possess any peon
niary qualification to sit in the House of Comn.inonknht
e.ißgut
a greater anomaly than all was that the son of
House
of
cum.
of the shire was entitled to sit in the
mons without a pecuniary qualificat qualificationlo of
n, though his
father was required to have a pecuniary
6001 a-year ; and the moment bis father died, he would
then become disqualified to sit unless he possessed a cer-
tain amount per annum.
(Hear,hear.) Another ano.
malt' was, that no pecuniary qualification was required
i
from a peer to sit in the House of Lords. (Rear, hear.)
He attached importance to the present bill, because a
ii ,ich wash frequently evaded inflicted a moral evil
-o-n-the country, and ought to be repealed as speedily as
possible.
Again, the maintenance of the present qualifi-
cation for members of the House of Commons excluded
many good members from tbatlouse who were unable to
carry on that dalliance with falsehood which the Legis-
lature encouraged by the establishment of the present
qualification. He certainly had no fear of those evils
which had been threatened in the other house
in the event of the existing qualification being
no longer required—namely, that the House 01
Commons would be fl )oded with bankrupts and swin-
dlers. In the first place. the existing law did not ex-
clude characters of that kind, but he should rejoice t.)
see a measure passed, not only with respect to the House
of Commons, but also with respect to the Home of
Lords, which would abolish that privilege from arrest
which the members of the Legislature at present enjoyed
(Hear.) He certainly did not dread the passing of th
present bill on the ground that the alteration of the la v