The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-08 00:00:00

HYDE PARK.

Mr. LOWE hoped the right hon. gentleman the Secre-
tary for the Home Department would allow him to put a
question. An opinion had been published in the papers with
respect to the admission of the public to Hyde Park, signed
by Sir 11. Cairns and Sir W. Bovill; it was dated July,
1866. Now what he wished to know was whether that
opinion was in the possession of the Government before
the riot which took place in Hyde Park in July of last
year.

Mr. WALPOLE said as it was a question of dates he
would Postpone answering the question until Thursday.

THE REFORM BILL.
In reply to Mr. GLAnsToNE,
The CHANCELLOR of the E XCHEQUER said be
would wore fully explain the nature of the amendments
be had on the paper to be made to the 3 ith clause, with
respect to compound henseholders, on Thursday next.
THE IRISH CHURCH.
Sir 3. (MAY then brought forward his resolution,
viz.—That the house will, on a certain day, resolve itself
into a committee to consider tho temporalities and privi-
leges of the Established Church in Ireland. He said he
had waited in vain for some more influential person than
himself to bring this unfortunate matter under the
consideration of Parliament. The hon. baronet entered
at length into the origin of the Established Church
in Ireland. He said it was planted under the germs
of a conquering race by the soldiers, and by the power
of the conquering race it was still preserved in Ire-
land. Non-conforming Catholics bad suffered confiscation,
and had:been deprived of the privilege of leaseholders, yet
under all its persecutions, they still preserved their pre-

ponderance. By the last census it was shown that 88 per
cent. of the population of Ireland were non-conformists to
the Established Church in Ireland, and it was injurious
and unjust that the small minority remaining should
appropriate the whole of the Church revenues
in Ireland. In Scotland the Presbyterian Church was

preserved, and in different countries other forms of reli-
gion—not excepting the Hindoo—were supported by the
Crown; but in Ireland a strong effort had for years been going
on to trample out Catholicity in Ireland. To show that such
was the case nearly all the offices of emolument were
held by Protestants. Amongst the 2,000 magistrates only
300 were Catholics, and amongst the 2,700 office-holders
only 700 were Catholics ; and out of the 210 deputy-
lieutenants of counties only 47 were Catholics.

Happily, there was ono place whore this
arrangement was not in existence, and that
was the judicial bench in one court, which was now called

the Court of the Holy See, there was not a single Protes-
tant official. He thought it but justice that the Church
of the majority in any country should be acknowledged by
the State, and why the Catholic Church in Ireland should
bo oppressed in the manner it was was most unjust. Tho
committee he moved for would examine the whole of the
revenues and resources of the Established Church in Ire-
land ; and ho trusted the house would agree to the motion
ho had so imperfectly brought before it.
In seconding the motion, Colonel N. GREVILLE ad-
dressed himself chiefly to the arguments that because the
greater portion of the land of Ireland was held by Protes-
tants, the whole of the temporalities ought to be monopo-
lised by a small percentage of the population. He was
himself a Protestant landowner in Ireland, but when he
went to his parish church he could not find his tenants,
his servants, or his labourers there, and he owned be felt
bound to protest against the continuance of a -System
which withheld from the majority of the people the whole
of the endowments of the Establishment. He agreed with
Sir John Gray that there never would be peace in Ireland
while this "abominable and monstrous institution" was
allowed to continue.

Sir F. HEYGATE moved " the previous question," ar-
guing that very few traces of religious ascendancy still
existed in Ireland—that the abuses of the Established
Church were not very serious, and that it would be inex-
pedient to tear up by the roots an institution which had
existed since the Reformation.

Mr. VANCE (who seconded the amendment) charac-
terised the motion as a covert attempt to transfer the tem-
poralities of the Established Church from the Protestants
to the Roman Catholics.

Mr. GLADSTONE, who on rising was received with
cheers, said—l feel a difficulty in supporting the motion
which has been made by my hon. friend the member for
Kilkenny, not in the slightest degree because I question
the soundness of the main proposition in these words
but because, perhaps, like him, and certainly like my hon.'
friend who seconded the motion, I question whether the
time has arrived when a practical plan on this subject
can be with advantage submitted to Parliament. In-
dividually I feel that were I to vote for going into com-
mittee of this house for the purpose of considering the
temporalities of the Irish Church, I should hold myself
bound to be prepared, in giving that vote, to submit a
practical mode for dealing with the difficulties of the
question. I therefore am not sorry that a means has been
opened to us by the motion of the hon. gentleman oppo-
site, which, without in auy degree questioning the general
proposition that the Irish Church may be fitly considered
in committee, relieves us from the necessity of affirming a
proposition that would excite hopes and expectations which,
I think, we should not be able to fulfil. It would not be
satisfactory, and it would be hardly consistent with the
character and credit of the house, to exhibit such a pros-
pect of legislative action until the time for such action is
felt to have arrived. With the exception of one or two
epithets, I agree with every word the hon. gentleman
said, but his speech is not applicable to the question
whether we should now proceed to legislate on this matter.
He takes his ground on principles of the highest and most
permanent character, and his speech would be just as good
in 1967 as now if the question then remain unsettled, which
God forbid ! (Hear, hear.) He flings in our faces menaces
which do not contain the elements of argument, and are
such as may be launched in the most threadbare form in
the best and worst cases. On the whole the Roman Catho-
lics in Ireland have, during the last forty or fifty years,
pursued a course the most eminently moderate, in compli-
ance with the engagement given by Lord Plunkett ; but I
am not bound by that engagement, and my opinions as a
member of the Established Church impel me in the direc-
tion in which the Roman Catholic members of the house
wish to move. I cannot give my countenance to that
strange, anomalous, and most injurious state of things
which prevails in Ireland; and the only doubt I entertain
is That mischief might bo done by a premature attempt to
legislate. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman says, as a topic
of consolation to the Roman Catholics, the churches of the
Establishment are open to all denominations; but suppose
the positions of the vs o Churches reversed, it might bo
said to Protestants that the Roman Catholic churches were
open to them. (Laughter.) Tho hon. gentleman said after
all it is only .Cl-18,001 a year, and that is only the amount
of the property of a single English nobler... If is aegeaitit-
ance must lie amidst the most opulent members of the
community. (Laughter.) I don't know whether he said
that was their average income—

Mr. VANCE—NO, uo. (Loud laughter.)
Mr. GLADSTONE—Then it is only the occasional in-
come. But this is the very community where there are
individuals who insist upon withholding it from the mass
of the poorer population. (gear, hear.) flow different
_ _

are the measures of justice and of arithmetic which he ap-
plies to the different portions of the community ! When
he came to deal with the provision made for the millions
of the Roman Catholic community in Ireland, he said
"Don't be discontented. See what you have got—.£3o,ooo.
It was formerly only .£6,000 ; and now, though your
population is diminished, all this is given to you!" (Loud
laughter.) He said they had the exclusive use of the
education grant. But don't the Roman Catholic members
of this house year after year call for alterations in the ad-
ministration which the hon. gentleman opposes. (Hear,
hear.) It is a great advantage to any country to have
highly-educated gentlemen distributed throughout its
districts; but it is a totally new view that they are to be I
endowed out of the public purse, whose funds ought, for I
the benefit of the mass of the community, to be applied in
another direction. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman who
has moved the previous question said he could not perceive
in Ireland any real remains of the system of ascendancy ;
yet he said there were this session eight bills in the house
affecting divers important branches of the law. These all
bear testimony to the existence of the remains of such
ascendancy, and are brought in to redress inequalities.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir F. HEYGATE—They are brought in to redress
anything that may remain. (Laughter.)
Mr. GLADSTONE—Then it is clear that there are at
least eight of these remains. (Laughter.) The threat
that by altering the present ecclesiastical arrangements,
so far as the temporalities are concerned, religious strife
will be increased in Ireland, argues that there is a class
in Ireland which will make more disturbance if it is
reduced to equality, than the Roman Catholics make at
present to obtain equal treatment. (Hear, hear.) 1 hope
1 may express my disbelief in the existence of such a
party. There is a natural sense of justice in cOmmunities
and classes which induces them soon to acquiesce in the
just decisions of the Legislature. (Cheers.) He said, "Don't
commit the fortunes of the Established Church and its
members to the voluntary system, which will do very well
for the towns, but not for the country." But he forgets
that we apply the voluntary system to the Roman Ca-
tholics in town and country too. (Hear.) Are they so
extremely wealthy, and are the Protestants so extremely
poor, that we are to claim the endowment of the latter be-
cause they won't be able to support the necessary charges
of their Church while such charges are borne by the mul-
titudes of the Roman Catholi .s, who are dependent upon
the sweat of their brows for their subsistence ?
_(Cheers.)
He said, " Beware of removing the present exceptional
state of things, because if you do there will be a more
active movement of religious zeal from the Protestant lido
against the Roman Catholic Church." I don't know if he
succeeded in carrying the terrors he intended into the mind
of the Roman Catholics; but I challenge his consistency
as a Churchman. He said the true ground for maintaining
this Establishment is its truth ; and how should he demand
our accession to his views on the ground that if you re-
move
the Establishment the truth will be spread more ra-
pidly.
(Loud laughter.) The general upshot of his speech
is that he is prepared to withdraw the property of .the
Irish Church, but that he is prepared to grant a full and
searching inquiry, with the view to the removal of ine-
qualities and anomalies. That admission and engage-
ment is very fair from his standing ground. If the basis
were sound nothing could be more satisfactory. Were it
a country where all the people were of our religious con-
victions, nothing-could be more proper than that these
anomalies should be removed. Rut the great difficulty
is that we have to look for it at anomalies in detail ; and
secondly, at one vast anomaly, iu which all the anomalies
of detail are involved. If the smaller anomalies are re-
moved the great anomaly remains, and is the more offensive
in the em; of the Irish people. (Hear, hear.) Tho argu-
ment of the hon. memb3r who moved the previous question
conflicts with that of the hon. inembar who seconded it.
There are three grounds on which a Church establishment
may be maintained. On the ground that it is true (which
we cannot hold and at the same time educate priests at
Msynooth to teach that it is not—(hear, hear)—on the
ground that it is the Church of the mass of the population ;
and on the ground that it is the religion of the poorest
portion of the population. (Hear, hear.) The lion. gen-
tleman,
in his zeal for the Church of Ireland, disparaged
the Church of England. I shall be ready to break a lance
with him ma that subject., and to contend, that the majority
of the population of this country do belong to the
Church of England. (Hear, hear.) But if what we look
at in the Church of Ireland are not matters of policy and
temporary expediency, but broad questions of civil right
and justice, we must embrace them and follow them to
their conclusions, whatever that may involve. (Cheers.)
Is it to be supposed that the people of Ireland will per-
manently tolerate this policy ? (Hear, hear.) Would we
tolerate it ourselves? (Hear, hear.) Would the Scotch
members tolerate the endowment of their episcopal Church
in the Tray ir4 which it prevail in ird and? a 3 ON in-

terested in its fortunes, should resist any attempt in such
a direction, if any person were insane enough to make it.
(Hear, hear.) Let us give Irishmen their due, and give to
Ireland the same measure which we require to be meted
out for ourselves. I trust that the time is not distant
when Parliament will find it its duty to look this question
fully and fairly in the face, and when that time comes I
am sanguine enough to cherish a hope, though perhaps
there may be fiery trials in the intermediate period, that
results will be arrived at the consequences of which will
be so happy and blessed that we shall wonder at nothing
but the folly which so long delayed them. (Laughter
from the Ministerial benches, andprolonged cheering from
the Opposition.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND said he
had heard with the greatest astonishment the sentiments
uttered by the right hon. gentleman. The arguments ad-
duced by him as to the spoliation of the Irish Church
apply equally
Ireland
dhiesa
aas nd
the
much
cohh
tohho
.)T propertyhepropertyporof v o
fpeetri every
oefpr s
tt
lihNbretle
Csehhntpli
reecin-
hsto .
as
the property of any gentleman in this house is his own.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Kilkenny said he
brought this motion forward with no hostility to the
Established Church of Ireland, but merely with the desire
o
a n imwp impartial ails itnoqhuei rtyh
e intores conditionresult
tsof
tha t tag;a
ibre;t
hef obtaining
declines
Can
any tosay
one imagine that his object is friendly to the
Church which he seeks thus covertly to assail? It is ab-
surd to say that the Church is only a couple of centuries
old. The Church of Ireland and its properties are as old
as any institution in the land. The property was dedicated
to the Church ten centuries ago. (Laughter, and a voice,
"What Church ?") He would answer that question; it
was a Church which. then, as now, was in hostility to the
Church of Rome. (Hear, hear, and No, no.) He defied
any one acquainted with the history of the Irish Church
not to know that until 1172 it was not in communication
with the Papal See. The right hon. gentleman opposite
(Mr. Gladstone) who asked that question
An HON. MEMBER: No; tho member for Louth.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said he had not put the question,
" What Church ?" (Laughter.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Some hon. gentleman
or right hon. gentleman immediately opposite interrupted
mo by asking " What Church ?" (Laughter.) There-
upon I took up the subject. From which of the three
right hon. gentlemen opposite it came I care not.
Mr. MONSELL: I beg to say that 1 did not ask the
question. (Renewed laughter.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL : I care not from whom
it came. lam not shrinking from the question.
Mr. MURPHY : I beg leave to say that I asked the
question. (Laughter.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was immaterial
to him. If the argument of equality is not sound, are we
to yield to numerical superiority ? Are we not entitled to
rely on the Irish Church as an integral part of the United
h
Church of England and Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) The t
on. gentleman scouted the argument of the hon. gentle-
man on this side based upon the compact entered into when
the Union was created, and he supposed it will be laughed
at now. (Hear, hear.) But that eminent statesman, the
Duke of Wellington, speaking in the House of Lords in
March, 1816, when a motion was made for an address to
the Crown upon this subject, said Parliament could not
depart from that compact, for at the time of the Union the
two Parliaments resolved that it should be perpetual. Are
you then to be at liberty to recede from the compact,
taking all the advantages which you have gained, and
denying the solemn obligations which you undertook ?
(Hoar, hear.) Has a convincing case been made out ? He
believed that in Ireland, amongst the majority of the
Roman Catholic population, apart from priests and politi-
cal agitators, there is no feeling of hostility to the Church
in Ireland. (Oh.) There is only a sentimental grievance,
which does not touch the pocket. The only argument in
support of this spoliation is that there aro so many millions
of Roman Catholics in Ireland, and that so much the
smaller portion of the population are Protestants. (Hear,
hear.) This spoliation can only bo warranted by the most
conclusive necessity. The property appropriated for the
use of the Church is not in any sense part of the public
purse of the country. He opposed this motion because it
had its root in the desire to subvert the institution of the
Church. In whatever way the question may be put, no

case has boon made why such an attempt should be allowed
to succeed.

Mr. Murphy, Mr. Lamont, and Mr. Synan supported the
motion, which was opposed by Mr. Lefroy and Lord Naas,
the latter coctending that the maintenance of the Estab-
lished Church in Ireland involved no real or practical
grievance, and that it would be confiscation to deprive it
of the property which it had held for three centuries.

Mr. C. FORTESCUE denied that the Established
Church could be regarded as the National Church of Ire-
land. The people of Ireland had never been Protestants,
and the grievance of a State Church had now become so
vast and pressing that, whenever the reform question was
disposed of, the ecclesiastical condition of that country
must occupy the attention of Parliament. He was in
favour of a fair and impartial redistribution of the ancient
Church property of Ireland and the establishment of a real
and .übAtantia 1 equality between Protestants and Catholics.
After some observations from Lord Claud Hamilton,
Mr. 3laguire, Mr. Newdegate, the house divided, when
the numbers were—
For the previous question
Against it .. 153
Majority —l2
Tho original motion of Sir John Gray was consequently

not put.
Leave was given to Viscount Amberley to bring in a
bill to amend the law relative to tho registration of persons
entitled to vote at the elections of members to sit in Par
liament.

The orders of the day were disposed of, and the houso
adjourned at live minutes to one, until 12 o'clock this day.

Colonel Richai ds and Captain Hans Busk,

TO TILE EDITOR OF " LLOYD'S NEWSPAPER."

Sir,—l have seen a notice of a pamphlet about
Captain llans Busk, in Lioyx, Newspaper of this
week, which compels me to take some notice of the
pretensions of that gentleman as " originator" of
the Volunteer Movement.

This pamphlet, written on Captain Busk's be-
half, attacks me, it would seem, as Captain Busk
attacked me some years ago. I thought I had
silenced him then. I will endeavour to do so now,
however reluctantly, because I must speak unplea-
sant truths.

I have not read the pamphlet. I do not know
where it is to be got. Perhaps it is as well that I
have not seen it, for it might increase my present
labour, but I have seen enough.
The writer in Lloyd's seems to think that because
Captain Busk joined the Victoria Rifles in 1858,
and before I did—as I admit—that " he made the
first practical attempt to form a perfect Volunteer
body." If so, what becomes of Captain Jordan's
claims as the patron and benefactor of the corps at
the time when Captain Busk joined, and what of
Sergeant-major Abbott, V. R., a rifleman in 1852,
who wrote in that year thanking me for my exertions
i❑ endeavouring to promote Rifle Volunteer Corps?
—What of the Hon. Artillery Company and Capt.
Jay ?—But the pamphlet has the bad taste and in-
discretion to proceed as follows :

"For more than 20 years Captain Hans Busk
had been on terms of intimacy with Colonel Richards,
and during the whole of that long period he has
publicly affirmed that he
.has not the remotest recol-
lection of ever having heard hint advocate the in-
auguration of a volunteer army—in fact, he rather
inferred that Colonel Richards was, then at least,
indifferent to the subject, or opposed to it, from
seldom or never having seen him either at drill or
on parade."
Now Captain Busk knew, and knows perfectly
well, that he entreated me at one time not to come
to drill with the Victorias, because of a personal
pique of his own, and that latterly I was engaged in
forming a Working Man's corps, the present " 3d
City of London," which I have since had the honour
to command. And if we are to descend to puerili-
ties and personalities of this kind, what of Captain
Busk's notorious incapacity for drill ?
For ten years previous to the meeting at St.
Martin's-hall, on April 16th, 1659, I had been
writing articles on the subject, and these articles
were constantly perused by Captain Busk. If, then,
the matter is to rest on the assertion of either of us,
I say that he is indebted for any idea he had on the
subject to me, and I am sorry that his memory is so
bad. I must endeavour to freshen it from his own
letters.

The case is this. In 1858 Captain Busk published
an Opusculum on Rifles,' as he calls it in a letter
to me, dated Match 27th, 1858, as king me for in-
formation. On July 2, he wrote saying he had sent
it among other papers to the Ilforn ing Advertiser, a
paper which he publicly denied afterwards ever to
have seen, and he thanks me for my aid and says,
" Somehow the book doesn't move off as it ought; 1
fear I shall lose largely by it." Aud again on July,
10th, 1858, " Do you happen to know whether any
reviews of the Rifleman's Manual have appeared in
any of the papers you kindly applied to on the sub-
ject? I have spent a great deal in advertising the
book, but somehow it does not move off as it ought."

Now, as it is stated that a vast number of these
books were sold, this is important, because I say
that instead of the book assisting in the birth of the