The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-18 00:00:00

LEAVE OF ABSENCE.

On the !notion a Mr. E. ELLICE, leave of absence was
given tuSir Joseph Paxton on aceount of ill health.
PAPER DITTY.
Sir J. DIME presented petitions praying for a re-
peal of the paper duty.
QUARANTINE.
Mr. C. FORESTER moved for a copy of the returns
received from the British colonies of the number of ships
placed in quarantine, and of other particulars relative
thereto, in each of the ten years ending the 31st of
December, 1854 ; also, for a copy of or extract from a
despatch from Governor Sir George Grey to the Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies, dated November 7, 1857,
on the subject of the military force in New Zealand dur-
ing his administration of that government ; and, for a
copy of or extract from a despatch from the Governor of
Bermuda to the Secretary of State for the Colonies,
inclosing a report from the commissioners appointed to
inquire into the first appearance and spread of yellow
fever at Bermuda in the year 1856.—Ordered:
ECCLESIASTICAL RESIDENCES (IRELAND)

BILL.
Mr. NAPIER moved the second reading of this bill,
the object of which was to improve the law with respect
to ecclesiastical residences in Ireland, which at the pre-
sent time was in a most unsatisfactory state. The bill
was urgently called for by the clergy, who complained
of the injustice inflicted on them, by being compelled to
pay more than their fair share for the repairs of their
residences, after theyhad been condemned by the proper
authorities. If the house consented to the seeond read-
ing of the bill, he did not intend to proceed with it until
after Easter, by which time the bill would be printed,
and in the hands of members.
Sir G. GREY bad no objection to the second reading.
He thought the hon. gentleman had adopted a wise
course in not proceeding with the bill until after Easter.
The bill was then read a second time.
CHURCHES (IRELAND) BILL.

Mr. NAPIER moved the second reading of this
bill, which was to provide churchyards to certain
churches in Ireland. He intended to adopt a similar
course with this bill as the former one.
The bill was read a second time.
CHURCH RATE ABOLITION BILL.

Sir J. TRELAWNEY, in moving the second read-
ing of this bill, said he regretted that the conduct of
the bill had not fallen into abler hands. He trusted
that in the discussion which was likely to ensue they
would be influenced solely by argument. It had been
generally thought that church rates were a tax on pro-
perty, but he had consulted with a gentleman of great
legal knowledge, and it was his opinion that church
rates generally could not be considered a tax on pro-
perty. . Then, again, the law with respect to the
levying a rate was in an extremely unsatisfactory state,
there being no less than five objections to the form of
levying a rate, which might all be urged in the ecclesi-
astical courts, and such being the case he thought that I
neither Churchmen nor Dissenters wished to see the present
unsatisfactory state of the law longer continued. The
hon. gentleman then referred to the Braintree case, and
detailed the different appeals and re-appeals which cha-
racterised the whole of the law proceedings connected
with that case, and contended that the present state of
the law urgently called for amendment. He thought
that all parties anxiously wished that the present un-
seemly contests should cease, and that there should be
an end put to these disgraceful discussions. At cer-
tain vestries, stormy debates had taken place with
respect to levying church rates, and also whether they
should be expended in such items as washing the clergy.
man's surplice, or whether there should be two or three
bottles of sacramental wine. (Hear.) If the voluntary
principle was adopted there need be no fear that
churches would fall into repair. The system bad been
tried in the borough, in which he represented
the happiest effect. The church there needed repairs,
and he knew a gentleman, a dissenter, who gave 251.
towards that object, and a sum sufficient having been
raised the repairs were carried out, and the church was
now one of the handsomest buildings in the country. No
one thought of asking for a church rate in Tavistock—
the idea was quite exploded. (Hear.) The principle of
the abolition of church rates had been already adopted
in Ireland by the abolition of ministers' money. (Hear.)
Last year the noble lord promised to bring forward a
bill, but this year he wound adeptitation round his finger
and dismissed them without any answer. Then,
while the doors of the church were grudgingly and
illiberally shut, the dissenters threw open the
chapels and invited all to eater. The cathedrals
had lately been thrown open, but it was exceedingly
difficult to erase from the minds of the working-classes
their struggles with the beadle for a small space of cold
stone. He thought that the churches ought to open
every day, that short services should be read, and that
religion should be made an every day thing, instead of,
as now, being reserved exclusively for Sundays. (Hear,
hear.) such being the case, the working classes
would not be confined for a number of hours listening
to idioms which were evory day broken through in
private life. (Hear, hear.) He thought that if the
churches were opened as he had mentioned, and facilities
were given to the working classes to visit the parks
and museums on the Sunday after the services, a
great deal more would be done towards extending the
influence of the Church than had ever before been ac-
complished. The hon. gentleman having again urged
on the house to put an end do the heartburnings between
churchmen and dissenters by abolishing church rates,
resumed his seat by moving the second reading of the
bill.

Gen. THOMPSON seconded the motion, although he
looked upon the present bill merely as a feeler to try the
power of public opinion, as it contained no provision for
the pecuniary loss which would be entailed on the Esta-
blished Ohurcb. He thought the deficiency should be
made good by the imposition of a land tax.
Lord ROBERT CECIL opposed the motion, and
moved that the bill be read a second time that day six
months. The noble lord, at some length, stated his
reasons, and said he thought it extremely hard that the
Church of England should be called upon to collect her
revenues by voluntary contributions, and that he looked
upon this bill as the first blew towards dividing the
Church from the State.

Sir A. ELTON thought that the abolition of church
rates would be attended with the best possible results,
but he did not wish to see them abolished without some
remedy being afforded by the State towards the repairs
of the church. He thought the same plan adopted by
the State towards schools should be extended to the
church. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. E. BALL said he did not think there was a single
question that caused se much jealousy, heartburning,
and disgust, as the "horrible" question of church rates,
the compulsory payment of which sva3 most obnoxious,
and did more than anything else to keep up bitterness
between dissenters and churchmen. He cordially sup-
ported the bill.
Lord STANLEY thought the noble lord who moved
the amendments had gone too far in setting forth the
rights of a majority. It was the first time he had ever
heard that a majority could do no wrong. He appre•
handed the rule of Government was that the majority
were entitled to tax the whole for the benefit of the Thole.
The noble lord had quoted a return showing how many
parishes had accepted church rates, and how small a
number had refused, but he had entirely passed over an
important item in the statement. The return which he
had quoted included only where the rate had been re-
fused. • refusal must be preceded by a demand, and the
noble lord had passed over the large and increasing num-
ber of places where no rate had been demanded, because
it was well known it would be refused. Considering
the present law was untenable, he had no choice left but
to support the bill.
Sir G. GREY said he could nit agree to the abolition
of church rates without an equivalent, nor could he
oppose the bill on the ground stated by the noble lord
who moved the amendment. What he suggested
as a compromise on a former occasion he now
again urged—namely, that they should recognise
the abolition of church rates, wherever they had been
abolished for a certain time by the inhabitants, and that
they should relieve the individual consciences of those
who differed with the Established Church, by exempting
them
from
payment of church rates, but at the same time
they
should not be allowed to have seats in the vestry,
nor take part in
also sugg,eated thatany ecclesiastical business. Ile
landowners should charge
their estates to limited amount to church rates.
Under the circumnes he should feel it his
oppose the bill, and, if th
introduce a measure embode duty to
measure was rejected, to
thia suggestion.
Mr. HOPE addressed thyainlf 111:,!,e araidst loud cries
of Divide." He opposed the°
Mr. GARNETT supported th Lb"
Tne CHANCELLOR of thee EikLend nr.l
was
Secretary of
adopted it
if the suggestion of his hon, sa.;.l
State for the Home Department,'
would bring about a practical solution of theupleeititYa.s
He thought the house ought not to look
an unmeaning proposition. In his opinion, upon
it
was
adopted, the best effects would without doubt follow.
Mr. SLANEY said he should reserve hie vote for the
measure the Government intended to propose.
Sir J. TRELA.WNEY having replied,
The house divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading
Against it
Majority for the second reading--53
The announcement was received with loud cheers.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed this day fortnight.
The house then adjourned.

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