The Sun.
London, England, 1867-03-15 00:00:00

ships. The result of his plan will be best shown by a com-
parison between the Victoria, if cut down, and the Royal
Sovereign. In such an event the excess of weight in the
case of the Victoria would be 3,449 tons ; but the most
remarkable point would be this, that while the Royal Sove-
reign has a deck of 7 feet 21 inches, the Victoria would
have a deck of only 2 feet 21 inches out of water. This
shows thatthe Admiralty were fully justified in hesitating
before they proceeded to cut down their line-of-battle
ships. (Hear, hear.) What, then, is to be done with these
wooden ships ? There are no loss than 55 of them in reserve
in the Medway and other places ; they cost £8,250,000; to
repair them would require £1,250,000 ; and the total annual
expenditure on account of them is £117,260. (Hear, hear.)
Impressed with that feeling, and knowing that some of
them never could, by any possible conversion, be made
serviceable to the country, my right hon. friend, now
Secretary for War, decided that the worst of them should
be sold by auction. (Hear, hear.) Thirteen of them
accordingly have been sold, and within the financial
year £8 ,000 will be paid into the Treasury ou account of
them. (Hear, hear.) The only other vote the noble lord,
in conclusion, said he had to refer to, was vote 11, re-
lating to works. Thisyear there was an excess over last
year of £42,771, principally on account of the dock exten-
sion and other works at Chatham and Portsmouth. The
hon. member for Pontefract had called attention to the
item of £450,000, for extra payments and receipts. This
amount was made up of £150,000 for the sale of timber
which was deteriorating in the dockyards ; £85,000 for the
sale of ships ; and £lOO,OOO for the iron ballast employed
in paving the dockyards. He had the authority of Messrs.
Ryland for estimating the "pigs" at £lOO,OOO. Arrange-
ments had been made for giving the Messrs. Ryland fifty
tons for the purpose of testing the market value, but there
was no doubt that the estimated sum of £lOO,OOO would
be realised. He believed there were eight or ten other
ships which might also be sold with advantage to the
country. He had now brought his statement to a close.
He was afraid he was not sufficiently clear, but as far as
he could he gave all the information in his power. He
hoped the committee would accept the estimates. They
were the lowest the Government could propose. If they
were accepted, England might, as in times past, rely upon
her navy as the right arm of her strength in the hour of
danger. (Cheers.)
The vote for 67,300 men and boys, including 16,200
marines, having been put from the chair,
Mr. GLADSTONE said he only gave expression to the
general feeling of the committee when he congratulated
the noble lord upon the manner he had discharged his duty.
The noble lord might rest assured it was not to him person-
ally he raised the objection at an earlier period of the evening.
There were many matters in the estimates which directly
challenged discussion, and as the noble lord was not the
representative of the Board of Admiralty in Parliament,
such discussion could not take place with any effect.
There were some points in the noble lord's speech which
made him regret that ho did not occupy a more prominent
position. The noble lord alluded to tho building of gun-
boats, the meaning of which was that this class of vessel
would be scattered all over the world ; but, as they pos-
sessed no great amount of defence or resistance, in the
event of war they would be found to run off or surrender.
The amount for those gunboats would also neces-
sitate a large outlay in the ensuing year. The
noble lord had already told the committee he was not re-
sponsible for the estimates, and to any questions addressed
to him he could still return the same answer. The Go-
vernment were entitled to their opinion, but it was also
for the House of Commons to express its opinion with re-
gard to these gunboats, as they directly told upon the
number of men that would be employed to man them all
over the world. It was on this account that he hoped the
committee would not be asked to agree to the first vote
on the present occasion. If the committee asked for fur-
ther information, the noble lord could say, " I am not here
to announce a policy or to give an opinion." If the Go-
vernment wished to place the noble lord at the head of
the department, they would then be ready to show as
much courtesy to him as to any of his predecessors. (Hoar,
hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,, with-
out troubling the house with any reasons, ho thought, upon
the whole, it would be advisable not to press the vote that
night. If the house pleased they would report progress.
(Hear, hear.) According to a telegram he had received,
the election of the First Lord of the Admiralty would take
place on Tuesday, which, if all went well, would enable
him to-take his seat on Wednesday, and proceed with the
navy estimates on Thursday.
Mr. CHILDERS would be glad to have some more do-
finite information with regard to the iron ballast.
Sir J. HAY said it was impossible to state the amount
exactly until they ascertained the result of Messrs. Ryland's
experiment upon tho market. There were 36 tons of the
pig iron used for paving the dockyards, and the cost of
£1 5s per ton for replacing it with granite pavement would
have to be deducted from the sum the pig iron brought in
the market.'
Mr. O'REILLY wished to know the date of the purchase,
of the timber now proposed to be sold.
Mr. SAMUDA asked if the second-class iron vessels
were to be wholly or partially plated; whether the height
of eight feet had reference to the pert-sill above water;
and whether the guns were to be below deck or to protect
the upper deck; and whether there would be ono or more
port-holes.

Sir J. HAY said the vessels will be entirely armour
plated. There will be three or four ports for guns point-
ing fore and aft, working on pivots, on the main deck. As
regards the timber, it is difficult to say when it was all
purchased. It was in the years 1859-60 and 1860-61 when
the great increase took place. The demands of the service
caused three years' supply to be exhausted in one, the sup-
ply being 60,000 loads annually; but in 1862 we changed
the system of wooden ships for iron. There are now 101,000
loads in the yards. About 25,000 will be sufficient this
year, and, looking to the future, from 18,000 to 20,000; so
that 65,000 will be enough for us to retain. From 35,000
to 40,000 may therefore be sold.
Mr. Alderman LUSK said the noble lord asked himself
why we should build more ironclads of the first class, but
the answer did not appear clear. Why should we do so in
the present circumstances of the country ?
_

Sir J. HAY—There is no proposal before the house. It
is not now proposed to build any.
Mr. Alderman LUBK only wanted to know the answer
which the noble lord gave to his own question. (A
laugh.)

-- -
Sir J. HAY—It was not put as a question of policy.
There is no other proposal for building than the ono sub-
mitted by the Secretary to the Admiralty.

Mr. H. SEYMOUR said the question of the ironclads
was a most important one, as tending to economise our
military establishments at distant settlements. Why should
wo not follow the plan adopted at Victoria, and by employ-
ing an ironclad for such places as Singapore and Hong
Kong, do with a smaller proportion of soldiers? An impor-
tant suggestion was thrown out by the Secretary of the
Admiralty with respect to our squadrons in various plrts
of the world. Why might not the African squadron be
wholly dispensed with ? It was satisfactory to hear such
a statement from a member of the Government. Tho noble
lord shakos his head; but possibly the speech was a feeler
to ascertain the opinion of the house. Is it the intention
of the Government to propose any reduction of these squad-
rons? and if not, will any distinct motion on the subject
receive their support?

Sir &E. PETO said the discussion of a policy without
the presence of those to direct it was a discussion
without aim, and he moved that progress be reported.
(Hear, hear.)

The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought in throe bills
for the amendment of the Law of Bankruptcy, prefacing
his explanation of them by an elaborate review of modern
legislation on this subject, down to Lord Westbury's Act
of 18G1, which he remarked had not in all points worked
well, the chief complaint against it being that it interfered
too much with creditors, and did not leave them sufficiently
at liberty to manage the assets of an estate among them-
selves. He proposed, therefore, to adopt unreservedly the
recommendation of Mr. Moffatt's Committee, and to allow
creditors to appoint a trustee for the management of an
estate ; and, to provide for those numerous cases in which
the creditors were supine, there would be provisional
trustees (the Registrars of the County Court), who would
also have vested in them all estates between the adjudica-
tion and the appointment of the trustees by the creditors.
He proposed, also, to abolish imprisonment for debt, except
in certain cases of fraud, and to extend the Small Debts
Act to sums of ..£3O. Debts would be proved and divi-
dends declared before the trustees, with an appeal where
necessary; the adjudications would be made before the
Registrars, and the proof of disputed debts, the final
examination and discharge of debtors, would be the
functions of the legal tribunal, which he proposed
should be the County Courts, with an appeal to the Lords
Justices. On the mode of making a man bankrupt on his
own motion, be proposed that a debtor should petition the
Court, upon which the creditors should be called together
and decide whether he should be made bankrupt; the
arrangement clauses would be left undisturbed, with this
addition, that a debtor must file a deed in the court describ-
ing the amount of his debts, the names of his creditors, and
his assets, and if it should be assented to by a majority of
his creditors representing three-fourths of his estate, the
Court should have power, after it had nmained three
mouths without being challenged by any of the creditors,
to declare it valid. Creditors, however, whose debts were
secured would have to deduct the amount of their security
before their debt was computed. On the question of dis-
charge he proposed to follow the principles of the old
Insolvent Debtors' Court, and to give the Court discretion
to make the future property of a bankrupt liable to a
limited extent, unless he had paid a dividend of 10s. in
the pound.

Mr. GOSCHEN signified a general approval of the bill,
which he believed contained the elements for solving
many of the difficulties of the subject, though on some
points it would require modification.
The scheme was criticised, and various suggestions were
offered, by Mr. Moffatt, Mr. Ayrton, Mr. Moncreiff, Mr.
Fawcett, Mr. Alderman Lusk, :Mr. Vance, and Mr. Nor-
wood.
Tho other business was disposed of, and the House
adjourned,