The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON,

able suggestion—to this effect ; that if the shores of the
river, which were dry at low water, were arranged so as
to present an even surface of gravel at an inclination of
one in 12, that mud would not deposit on a slope so
arranged. To that he added dredging two trenches in
the middle of the Tham?s, on which there might be dif-
ferent opinions. He would urge the Government to call
on the Metropolitan Board of Works to take up this
question. They were now justified in thinking upon the
opinion of two most eminent men that the extensive
scheme of sewerage was impracticable, and if that were
so they ought at once to return to the scheme which
was practicable. With regard to the present mischief,
it was due to atmospheric causes which they could not
control. It was a great blessing that there was not now
any epidemic, and he prayed God in His mercy would
not visit us with one, As to the house, there was one
thing hon. members might do, and that was by shorten-
ing their speeches, SO as to bring their labours sooner to
a close.
Sir J. PAXTON said the hon. member had very
much anticipated what be had wished to state to the
house. He was not prepared to recommend to the
hcuse any particular scheme for the purpose of curing
this great nuisance. All the schemes for the purification
of the Thames had nearly ono common plan, as far as
Barking-creek ; and the question was as to taking the
sewers beyond that point. If they referred to the plan of
Mr. Bazalgette, to that recommended by the Board of
Works, or it they went back as far as that recommended
by Mr. F. Forster, who originated this scheme of drain-
age, they would find that they came to almost one coal-
men terminus below London. What we wanted was that
they should immediately set about carrying the sewage
to that point, and whether it should be afterwards car-
ried further was a matter that 'night be discussed in the
meantime. There was one plan which he believed had
never had proper attention paid to it—that suggested by
Mr. IVl'Lean in 1849. Mr. M‘Lean was an eminent
engineer, and was the first person who suggested inter-
mediate intercepting sew( re ; and he, after making out
his scheme, got Sir M. Peto and other eminent contrac-
tors to offer to carry the sewage down to Sea Reach. It
could be done, according to Mr. Peto's estimate, for
1,600,0001., and Mr. Bidder, Mr. Hawkshaw, and Mr.
Bazalgette reported that the previous part of the sewer
could be constructed for 2,300,0001. ; so that the sewage
could be taken to the German Ocean for 5,000,0001. or
6,000,0001. He thought they ought at once to embark
in the work of constructing the intercepting sewer down
to Barking. He did not see the use of the commission
which was in existence, but he thought that the Govern-
ment might look into the matter, and that it could be
safely trusted in their hands.
Mr. ROUPELL said he intended to proceed with the
motion cf which he had given notice on going into com-
mittee of supply, as he was averse to discussions with-
out practical results, as discussions on the adjournment
of the house generally were. As to the Victoria sewer,
hs understood that the original contract was under
12,0001., that the expense exceeded 73,0001, and that
there were claims which would swell the amount to
nearly 200,0001. It appeared that in this enlightened
age we must have everything of great magnitude—great
ships, a great Crystal Palace, and great, sewers. No
doubt the evil of the Victoria sower arose from its situa-

tion, and with the two enormous sewers proposed they
would be subject to the swampy c nditi ,n of the soil,
and the filtration of the water into them the came as the

ict-iria sewer. They should coati ler these things before
they embarked in any colossal scheme. He would only
add a remark as to the effects on the health of those living
on the borders, of the river. The teeming thousands
on the borders of tno river were in a state of
chronic cholera, and if we had a warm rain or the cm•
tinuance of warm weather, we might fu ly expect some
visitation of Providence, without which he learel the
evil oevtr would he art rested.
Mr. KENDALL, as chairman of the Thames Cona-
mittee, wished to say a few worts. He wanted to im-
prsss ue on the house that if the report of the committee
had been ready long Bruce, nothing could be done as the
law now stood. Tncre were the Board of Works, the
First Commissioner, and the Conservancy to deal with.
lie thought tha nothing would be dune unless the Gs-
vernment tock it into their own hands. If they ap-
pointed three na-n competent, and above suspicion, the
soot k would be done. It would be useless fur the com-
mittee to prop ice anything unless the Government tole
means to carry it into effect. This was shown by the
fate of the plan proposed by the Melrepelhan Board of
Works, aed submitted to the First Csuonissiener. It
was quite clear fro-n the evidence which had been laid
before the committee that no hon. member had exag-
gerattd the evil.
Mr. MANGLES thought that after all it was a money
question ; it was a question whether the expenses shoulA
be wholly thrown on tho metropolis or shout I be in
part borne by the Imperial Government. He thonght
it very foolish to hand over such a work as this to cosh
a body as the Board of Works without means and
ap-
pliances. Ike thought it was not the business cf the
metropolis alone to execute this great work. (Haar.)
It was not only the people of Laudon who were cos-
cc nod, but the sovereign and the legislature, and the
liw courts of the kireAotio which were located in the
nel,;hbou hood. It was a shuffle to try to pu., the whole
ex_ wise upon the parishes uf L indon. It was said that
it would take a long time, but they would never finkh
it if they did not begin it. Let the Government take
the ma ter up this session, and he was sure that under
the influence of the nuisance the house would rapidly
pass any necessary bill, and if they succeeded they
would psifarin a work which would exceed that per-
formed by Hercules.
Lord J. MANNERS wished to observe firs', that he
bud ao cot neetioa with the mananemerit of the Victoria
sewer, or any other sewer, and there lire he had been
obliged to apply to the Chew:elan of the Metropolitan
B of Works f- r informatien on the subject. He
bad received the following enewer :--" Sir,—Adverting
to the contents of your letter of the 24',h lost., I am
directed by the Chairman cf the Metropolitan Board of
Works to apprise you, for the iiiformation of the First
Commissioner of tier Majesty's Works, that the answers
to the quevions referred to in th it c.iminunication are
as fo:low :-1 Too outlet cf the Victoria street sower
has for some years past been fr qeently, and now is,
'sneer repair, and during the present and all periods of
repair it has not had a proper outlet for the discharge of
its sewage. The sewer has been under repair for the
last three months. 2. An outlet has not been recently
made fur ad the accumulated contents of the Victoria•
street sewer in close proximity to Westminster-bridge.
Ail the sewage flowing into that portion of the Vic•oria-
street sewer which is above Westminster-bridge Las for
the la t three months eeen dire:del into that -Id sewer
as ou all previous occasions cf repair to the Victena-
sireet outlet. The Westminster-bridge sewer ont'et its
extended to low water, and trapped at itt mouth, and it
is believed to be connected whh Mr. Gurney's system of
sewer ventilation. 3. The area drained into the Vic-
toria-street sewer is about one-third of a tquare mile.
4. The amount expended on the same sewer up to May
last was 73,3211. 16'. 6.1. I beg to aid, by direr im of
the chairman a quantity of lime will be immediately ap-
plied at the outlet of the Bridge-street sever, fur the
purpose of deodorising the sewage." He might, there-
tore, ray, that all etepe that could immediately be t %lien
were now being taken in reference to this sewer, As to
the many qu aliens which had been raised, it was im-
, possible for him to deal with them at once, in anything
like a satisfactory manner. Treel were of course all
agreed as to the evil and its sources, and every
hon. gentleman expressed his earnest desire that
something should be done. But beyond these two
!elementary positions, he believed they had not ad-
vanced so as to throw any great light on what
was to be done immediately. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. member who nnninenasd this discussion seeme,i
anxious to threw the whole responsibility on the Go-
vernment—(hear)—which the Government entirely re-
pudiated, for the law gave them no rower over the
matter. The house would alloy him to refer to how the
present law originated. It was thought that the various
communities of the metropolis should be pieced in a po-
sition in which it might satisfactorily deal with all mu-
nicipal and local questioos. An act was passed to give
effect to this opinion about three years ago, and in that
act direct reference was made to the question of the
sewage of London. The house must recollect that the
Metropolitan Board of Works was established to carry
out the decision of the Legislature. He wished to Oro w
blame on no one, for he believed tbat all parties had
acted to the best of their judgment, and that they had
net been able to arrive at a conclusion in consequence
of the difficulties of the question. The Metropolitan
Board had not refused to consider any plan submitted to
them by the late or the present Government. Q-eite the
rever,e, for this very day the Metropolitan Board of
Works had been sitting for the express purpose of seeing
whether they could not devise some plan fur arresting
these evils. Nii plan could be submitted by the Govern-
, mint to the Metropolitan Board of Works. The hon.
member for Bath (Mr. Tate) had gone into a clear avose
of
committee
shsit,
as views.
udbitettshaeel
allowed
T
oawn
honour
The h
ttho
etceha(yail
situ rttmhyh
aaaotdnf
while
ihtelhedee
dhethf committeeotuhnedon which
Governmentah,
I differing so widely as to the sources of the evil workttahnaodrf buti hbei
still
tnov
ot hl
ve e
dre
suchm e d ye,
nand
owu whenx
ph
ee fdoi ut
un dr e that
those remedies widely
as
responsible for thneaeuxrparlydiatuhraew—ed(hneaard)
the metropolitan districts endeavour to repudiate being
--e-a
desire
vtehr nt :keen te
past or present,
on
themselves an expenditure the extent of which no one
knew, and the results of which were very dubious. It
did not become him hastily to say that the Government
would take on themselves the responsibility of spending
millions cf money, and of settling this great question.
What he could tell hon, gentlemen was this, that the
question was occupying the meet serious attention of
the Government, and that they would do their best be-
fore the session closed to introduce, if they Lurid it to
be necessary, a measure which would confer sufficient
power on the Metropolitan Board of Works, or on any
other department existing or to be created, for the satis-
factory conclusion of this question. (Cheers.) He would
not go into details on the great question how far the
sewage should be carried, cr into the question of the
embankmeut of the Thames. On the one hand there was
the Metropolitan Board of Works, aided by the experi
ence they had acquired, steadily endeavouring to find a
proper remedy ; on the other hand, the Government was
prepared to act cordially with them, and to submit to
the consideration of Parliament some I cheme for the
amendment of the existing lie knew he ha I ex-
pressed very insufficiently the views a hich he should be
prepared tot xplain at greater lcegth on a future coca-
• iiin. He would content himself with saying that so far
at his knowledge went the statement which he had eeard
front the hoe, member for Bath (Mr. Tile) of the perf-ct
• uccess of the deodorising system at Leicsster was per
feetly borne nut. He bad a letter from a leading phy-
elician that nothing ennld be more succesefnl than the
eerotrising system so for ae sanitary matters wire con•
ce
d lie hoped that the house would not think that
the Government were neglecliug their duty if they did
take the matter out of the hands of the proper consti-
ted authorities, and he asaure.4
.01_9E4 that the C".

vernuaent would give every assistance to the proper ,
authrrities, and would do what they could to Fubstitule
a more perfect machinery, endowed with more ample
powers of purikcation of the Thames.
Mr. BRADY said he had known the Thames for
thirty years, but had never known it so offensive as at
present. Unless something were done, a second plague
of London might be expected. He thought the house
was responsible for any calamities which might arise.
He trusted that the matter would be considered in a
manner which would show to the people cf London
that their lives were cared for. He knew families were
flying from London ; and when he had ridden over
NV, stminster•bridge he found that many persons, as
\ they approached the bridge, put handkerchiefs to their
noses and used t. bottles.

Mr. BENTINCK must enter his protest against the
doctrine that had been laid down by the hon. member
fur Guildford (Mr. Mangles.) He agreed it was a money
question, and all he wanted was to protest against the
money being taken cut of the wrong pocket. First they
were asked for money for a park fur the metropolis, and
next a: bridge was constructed, and they were asked to
forego the security of the tolls; and then, when there
cams the question of the sewers, it was immediately
stated that this was an imperial question, ant that the
whole country was bound to contribute. Tne inhabitants
of a town ought to pay for their own sewerage. It was
monstrous that the richest city in the world should al-
ways try to relieve itself of its just obligations. What
would be said if bon. members asked for public money
for the purposes of towns a hundred miles off ? If the
Thames were not purified, London would be deserted,
and the inhabitants would sustain a greater loss than by
paying for the sewers.
Mr. AYRTON prot?sted against the imputation
which bad been made that metropolitan members, in
deference to their constituents, asked for public money
for local purposes. The difficulty did not lie in the
demands of the metropolis, but in the fact that
the metropolis had always been a bugbear in the
eyes of the Executive
.Government, and bad been
refu.ed municipal privileges, but municipal intelligence
should go far to count.ract the want of intelligence on
the part of the executive. (Laughter.) It was only
ten years since a whig prime minister had declared that
it would be impossible to grant municipal institutions to
the metropolis, because the population was so enormous.
It was ant three years since any approach to municipal
institutions had been given, and did they suppose that
the Wunders of centuries were to be remedied in a mo-
ment ? Had the right hon. gentleman below him been
able to carry his measure in its integrity, practical
measures would have been taken ere now, but the
municipal body had been counteracted by a commission,
and the result bad been to cover the whol-t affair with
ahsurdity and ridicule. He should astound the house
by acquainting it with what this commission proposed
to do. It proposed to provide at once what might be
necessary forty years hence, thus quadrupling the ex-
pense, and not only to carry away the sewage of the
metropolis, but to make provision for ten times the
quantity, besides all the rainfall of the surrounding dis-
trict.. If the mat ter was left to the municipality they
would make the Thames, not certainly pure as a
_ _

tain rivulet, but healthy and fit f )r all the purposes to
which it was at present applied. The only way to
remedy the present state cf things would be to give the
metropolis municipal institutions the same as every
other town, and then it would deal with Municipal ques-
tions r/ith practical wisdom and sagacity.
Sir B. HALL wished to Ray a few words in conse-
(pence of what had fallen from the h. n. member who
had just spoken, who hal, however, misrepresented the
case. As soon as the Metropolitan Board presented him
(Sir B. Had) with a plan which had an outfall, he put
it into the hands of three of the most eminent enzineers

in England, and further, he asked them it they did not
approve of it, to suggest some other plan themselves.
They did propose a plan, which he sent to the Metro-
peleae Board of Works, and the latter placed it in
the hands of their own engineer. Ad he had to re-
gret was that the Bard of Works, when they re-
ceived the report of their own engineer, did not take
it in hand at once, but postponed is consideration until
October next. Oa one point he agreed with the hoe
member for the Tower Haenlete, and that was that the
rnetropols was placed in a peculiar difficulty. In all other
to eecs in England in Europe there was a municipality
fhr the whole of the city; but the London municipality
extended over a very small area, and regulated the affairs
of but 129,000 out ef two and a halt mdlione of people.
(Hear, hear.) 0 her municipalities cattle' levy money
for the improvement of the whole city; but in London
the power of levy ranged over a very small portion of the
metrepol a, and was expended within a very small area.
This was a matter which required the consideration of
Parliament. (tlear.) After what had passed on the pre-
vious dav in that house respecting the Corporation Re-
form B 11, it was quit-) impossible it could pass during
the present session,, and therefore there would be time
for its coneideratiou. He should refrain from further
ohservatiou, because the Chief Commissioner ef Works
had indicated the wisest course, which was to put him-
self in communication with the Board of Works, and
ceo whether, in order that the main drainage should be
carried out, it would be necessary to alter the law.
Should he think it advisable to alter the law be (Sir B.
Hall) wouid advise him te look at the 141st section of
the bill, which the coils lore's party opposed, and
which he (Sir B. Hal) was in consequence obliged to
withdraw. Toe object of that clause was to enable the
Treasury to advance money on the security of the ro.'el,
and in consequence of its withdrawal it was impossible
to proceed with any works. Should there be say new
legidatiun he would strongly advise the re-insertion of
this clan ,e. (Hear.) If any scheme, such as that put
ferward by the hoc. member for Bath, should be consi-
dered, a now bill would be necessary, because ou! fall
was already fixed, not only outside the metropolis, bat
was fixed so low down, iu deference to the wishes of
the house, as to preclude the possibility of the waters
ever cemieg beck. He ventured to throw out these stag-
gefstioes in case the noble lord should have to re-intro-
duce the matter to Parliament.
Tae CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER -My
noble friend the President of the Board of Works has dealt
with this creation in so candid and clear a manner
that it is really unnecessary fur me to touch it at any
length. An hen. gentleman, I think, has charged the
Government with the responsibility of this matter. It
is unnecessary for me to say that no legal responsibility
can devolve on the Government in respect to it ; but I
ad-nit that a moral responsibility lies upon us to do all
in our power to prevent public disaster, and I am cure
no set t f men in our position would for a moment with
to avoid that responsibility. For the last three or four
days our uerliett and cene tent attention has been given
to the out ject, and I trust the result ef that attention
will be fer the public advantage. The commissions and
committe es on this question leave, no doubt, in many
respects done their duty well, but the time has came
when it is absolutely necessary that action shonll cent-
;fleece, (Cheers.) I very much agree with the bon.
gentleman the member fur the Tower Hamlets in the
ob creation which he made as to the great delay that
had taken place in the establishment of what I may call
this new Board in this great metropolis. But, a though
there is a great deal of truth in his observations, it is
also impossible to deny that what has occurred has been
the natural consequence of what probably could not have
been prevented—the jealousy which always exis-s when
new institutions; are rising by the side of ancient ones.
We must nut forget all that, and we must remember
that under the pressure and consciousness of these cir-
-1 curostances Parliament a few years ago determined to
eetablish a great corporation—l mean the Metropolitan
I Beard, to which so much reference has been made. But,
although we have invested it with great powers, unfore
tunately this great corporation, which has to guard the
intercli and regulate the management of probably a
hundred times more people and property than are en-
trusted to the guardianship of the corporation cf the city
of London, has an unlimited power of rating, which has
been proved to be nothing better than a theoretical
idea. (Hear.) It cannot carry that power into effect.
(Hear, bear.) It has experienced in its local direct taxa-
tion the same obstacles which we ereeerience with regard
to imperial direct taxation. I, therefore, think that
the time has come when, having thrown upon ttis cor-
poration so great a responsibility, we should consider
whether we ought not to furnish it with those means
which are adequate to the due fulfilment of its great
dutie-. (Hear.) Now I believe that it is in want of
funds. It is to that fact, and not to any system of don •le
government, as has been suggested, that the inefficiency
of the Metropolitan Board of Works is to be attributed.
I think that Parliament would act prudently in provid
ing that body with sufficient means for the adequate ful-
filment of its duties. In the present situation of affairs
there are two duties which her Majesty's Government
have to fulfil—one towards this house, and one, of
course, towards the population of this metropolis gene-
rehy. With regard to their dory to this house, I cer-
tainly am perfectly prepared, on the part of her Majes-
ty's Government, to say that there shall be no lack of
energy and no want of zeal on our part to bring the busi-
ness of this house to a coeclueion as soon as we can con-
sistently with our public duty. (Hear.) We shall not
hesitate to make a sacrifice of many measures—(laugh-
ter)—which, though important, may, if it should be ne-
ce=sary to make that sacrifice, be regarded as of only
secondary importauce. But I trust that the house will
respond to this desire on our part, and assist us as much
as possible—(cheers)—by not entering upon unnecessary
discussions. There are, however, certaio measures which
I think it is absolutely necessary should be carried, and
I trust that the house will assist us in carrying them.
But it is not our desire that they should not undergo
adequate discussion, for which opportunity will be given.
These measures I trust the house will, with all their
eaergy, assist us in carrying. With regard to the com-
munity our responsibili'y will not cease with the ternei-
nagion ef the session ; and I can only again repeat that
there shall be on the part of her Majesty's Govern-
ment no want of energy in their endeavonrs to
make those arrangements which are adequate to
the occasion, or in the exercise of the powers
they possess for preserving the public health.
(Hear, hear.) And if we find it necessary to appeal to
Parliament before it is prorogued for powers to carry
the necessary operations into effect we will not hesitate
to appeal to Parliament with confidence for such powers.
(Cheers.)
THE TENANT RIGHT QUESTION.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
before I sit down I hope I may be permitted to refer to
a queaka which wit-4 addressed to me on a subject of.a
very different character, and to which I should not, fetl
it necessary unthr those circumstances to reply; but I
th)ught it alight be deemed a want of courtesy if I were
to give no answer to the hon. gentleman. It appears that
the hon. gentleman has discovered that a cousidttahle
part of the data on which his inquiry ii founded is in-
accurate. I think, the house will feel that there is
nothing more inconvenient than to found an inquiry
upon escon4-hanclinforLuntivai of a conversation which