The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-26 00:00:00

THE SUN,'` LONDON, FRIDAY' EVEN! NG, MAkRrCIT 26, 1858

_..••••••
aistrative ability he possessed. The business of the I pick out the worst. The hon. member said that he (Mr.
some office was already quite sufficient, not more than Blackburn) had brought forward this because there was
saEcient, to occupy the attention of the ablest man,
I I
no Secretary for Scotland. But, in truth, he did not
.
that the end of the scheme, if adopted, desire any such officer for the country from which he
and he was sure His motive in placing his motion on the paper
Would be the transfer of the Irish business to a separate came.
department. Thei second scheme recommended was-, that was to do all that in him lay to render Ireland an integral
d merge into a Secretary of
the Lord-Lieutenant shoul portion of the British empire. He trusted to see one
State, who should remove to London and conduct the Home office with departments for each country. He be-
businesslieved that this would go far to put an end to any ante-
there instead of in Dublin Castle. He was far
gonistic feelings between different parts of the kingdom.
mit saying that this was impossible, but he thought it
He had no desire that an Irishman should forget that he
would be attended with great inconvenience. Personal
was a native of Ireland, or that a Scotchman should for-
oornmanication between the lower officials and the Lord
et had been productive of much good in Ireland, get that he came from Scotland. He desires, however,
but if this were carried out, that practice must cease. that all should remember they were Britons. (Hear.)
Mr. ES3IOND thought that no question had yet come
The third scheme was now before the house. It was
before the house for the abolition of the Lord-Lieutenancy
proposed that a Secretary of State should be appointed,
which had not been accompanied by some scheme to
.but that the staff should be left in Dublin, and that
place the office. He believed this question really necefisfsta
re-
during the recess the minister should reside in Ireland,
tated the further question of the appointment of a h
but without the ceremony and splendour that now sur-
rounds the head of the Irish government. The objection Secretary of State. He would remind the houseo thatthie,
many high authorities had given their opinions
absence
ee
to this scheme was that it would place the head of the
Sir R. Peel had given it as his opinion that then
department at a distance from his subordinates, and it
of a Secretary of State for Ireland in this country—whereb..-
would therefore be quite impossible for him to be so well
he must be to attend Parliament—would be most
.. nap
informed upon the details of his administration as though
dicious. So also Mr. Goulburn had given his opinion to
De were on the spot. These were the three modes sug-
the same effect. Much had been said about the intrigues
gaited, and the objections standing in the way of
at the Castle at Dublin. But let the house hear what Sir
their adoption. He thought the objections ought to
be answered before any one of the alterations was R. Peel said with regard to that. That great states-
man gave it as his opinion that in the absence of the
tried ; but be that as it might, he did not think that
Secretary of State in this country, the greatest license
the hon. and learned geutleraan had proved that there
would be afforded to intrigue. Mr. Canning had ex-
were any great evils existing in the present Government
pressed the same opinion almost in the same words. The ,
calling for the sudden and immediate change now pro-
late Chancellor of the Exchequer had intimated that at '
posed. No doubt Ireland had wonderfully improved
the time of the union no engagement was entered into
within the last ten years ; indeed, its progress was little
to keep up the Lord-Lieutenancy. But if the honour
abort of miraculous. Far be it, however, from him to
of public men was to go for anything, that statement
tray that this improvement was attributable to the exist- did not represent the actual facts. Mr. Pitt, in tam-
ing mode of government ; but, on the other hand, he porting the measure, held out to the people of Ireland
might ht fairly urge that the Government had exereised no that, though the Parliament would be done away with,
pernicious, blighting, or retarding influence over the
there would still be the head of the executive in Ire-
country. So far from that being the case, it was gene- land. He could also bring to the support of his views
rally admitted that the government of Ireland had gone
no less an authority than the late Mr. Hume. That
with the times, and that it had spared no naliutcleonice hon. member, in a discussion on this question, said that
crease the improvements which a bountiful Providence
of
if the income derived from Ireland was greater than its
bad vouchsafed the land. But it was said hens expenses, he should not object to its retaining the splen-
Lord-Lieutenant was kept up for party purposes. .
bat
dour of a Lord-Lieutenancy. Now since Mr. Hume spoke
had no great experience in the. tactics of the Castle,
the revenue drawn from Ireland had been nearly doubled,
so far as he bad been able to investigate the matter, he
l 'foundation for the and were that gentleman now alive he should claim
did not believe there was any inni as a supporter of the views which he entertained.
stories told of political intrigue.s°
solid
doubt there had
The hon. member who brought forward this matter had
; but there were intrigues in Down some intriguing not shown sufficient regard either for the Irish repre-
ing-street as well as Dublin Castle—(a 'augh)—and at
sentativea or the Irish people. A. most respectable and
one time he was disposed to imagine that there was some
influential meeting had taken place in Dublin, at which
very mysterious influences always at work in Dublin
it was unanimously resolved that the office of Lord-
Castle, but a close acquaintance with its affairs had not
Lieutenant ought to be retaiced. The question was one
strengthened but rather altered that opinion. The recent
assuredly national, and he tin stag, the house would give
levee at Dublin Castle showed that men of all shades of
due weight to the feeling of the people of Ireland upon
opinion were anxious to flock round the Lard-Lieu- .
it ...
(Hear.) So long as the majority of his countrymen
tenant ' • in fact, there was a strong feeling prevailing in
wished the office retained, he should strenuously opp ere
Ireland that the Castle was now neutral ground whereon
its abol tion.
parties of all shades of opinion could meet and enjoy
Mr. CONOLLY said he believed that while the
each ether's society. (Hear.) He believed this question
office of Lord-Lieutenant was administered with impar-
was now being discussed by the Irish people themselves,
tiality it would always have the support of the whole
and he was not quite sure whether a strong feeling had
Irish people.
not sprung up in favour of a change. Public opinion upon ea. e er.
DODSON deprecated the retention of the
the subject, however, was daily growing stronger ; the
viceroyalty as being a variety of that double system of
people were getting more disposed to pay attention to
government which was now so generally condemned.
their own domestic concerns rather than to mere party Every year diminished the number of excuses by which
politics; but though a goodly proportion of them might
its continuance could be defended. In his opinion, the
be favourable to a change, it yet never could be brought
Home Secretary, with the addition of another Under-
about by the mere votes of English members. In order to
Secretary, could easily manage all the Irish business,.
do it satisfactorily the will of the Irish people must be
Mr. GROG-AN was rejoiced in believing that few
first unmistakeably pronounced upon it, and the measure members would go into the lobby with the hon. and
itself introduced into Parliament by the Minister of the
learned member for Sheffield, but at the sarne time he
day. The question therefore might be safely left in the
must complain of the tone in which the question had
hands of the Irish people, and he entreated the house
been argued on both sides of the house. It was most
not to fall into the error of adopting a motion to force
unfair to Ireland to keep this question constantly befire
upon them a change of administration which it was just
the public, and be hoped it would now be finally settled.
possible at no distant period of time a large proportion
Mr. BAXTER appealed to the financial reformers in
of them would be ready to propose themselves. (Cheers.)
the house to give effect to the principles they advocated
Sir G. C. LEWIS concurred in much that had fallen
by voting for the motion of the hon. and learned gentle
from the hon. and learned member for Sheffield ; but
man, and abolishing a source of expenditure which was
there was one point in the speech of the hon. and learned
not only unnecessary but mischievous. (Hear, hear.) He
member who had moved the amendment from which he
trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would sig-
altogether dissented. He differed from the view he took
nalise his return to office by a revision of the estimates,
of-the office of Lord-Lieutenant. He disputed his propo-
and that he would begin by striking out of them the
sition that there was an implied contract in the act of
charges connected wieh the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland.
union for its continuance. There was, he believed, no- Mr. DOBBS,"as an Irish member, was prepared to
thing whatever in the state of the law rendering it neces-
support the proposition for abolishing the office of Lard
vary to keep the office of Lord-Lieutenant. The sign Lieutenant, on the ground that a government by deputy
meat which he drew from the Act of Union was directly
was always inferior to a government directly adminis-
contrary to that entertained by the hon. member for
tared. It was, however, hopeless to attempt to do any
Armagh (Mr Millar); for if it had been the view of Mr.
thing in the matter until the people of Ireland declared
Pitt, or of the Parliament of the time, that the Lord themselves in favour of abolishing the office. When
Lieutenancy should be maintained, that would have
that time came—which he would venture to prophecy
been provided for in the act itself, Therefore, so far as
would not be long—whatever Government was in power
the propositions of the act were concerned, the inference
it would be compelled to make the change. The north
he drew was that there was not an intention to maintain
of Ireland was already in favour of it, and even in Dub-
the Lord-Lieutenancy. The reason for this was quite
lie, during the last 15 years, public opinion had under-
apparent. Before the union Ireland was a dependency of
gone a considerable change on the subject.
this country, and the Lord-Lieutenancy was calculated
Mr. C FORTESCIJE should vote for the previous
for the government of such a place. The government of
question, but did not put the same construction upon it
Ireland before the union was similar to that of one of our
that the hon. and learned member who moved the
colonies. There was a separate Parliament, and such
amendment had done. He was not able to go the length
being the ease, a Lord-Lieutenant was a necessity. At
of the resolution of the hon. and learned member for
the time of the union the office of Lord-Lieutenant was
Sheffield. He had but little lave for the institution in
allowed- to remain, though the Parliament was abolished.
The position of the Lord-Lieutenant was, however, question, but he could not forget that it was a vital part
much altered ; instead of his position as head of the Par- of the government of Ireland, and was interwoven with
the habits, the feelings, and the traditions of the coun-
liament there, he thenceforward became the chief of a
try. Law and order had not been so long established or
number of administrative officer?. At that time steam
so deeply implanted in the minds of the people of Ire
navigation was a thing as yet unheard of, and the
land, as to render it safe to deal with a great institution
packets to Dublin often beat about for more than a week
like this without great caution. When the people of
in the Channel. Communication between the metro Ireland saw a proposal of this kind brow ht forward by a
poles and the capital of Ireland was therefore liable
private member not connected with that country, and
to be suspended for a time ; and, under such circuin
stances, there were many reasons why it was expedient ,one who was regarded as rather of a destructive charac-
t ( 1. gb) theywere not likely to have any great
that there should be a head of the administration resi-
eorn—fidae Au'
it.— Whata Minister of the Crown dest yet,
dent in Dahlia. There were, too, at that time, separate
e wan bound to build u but for the conetTuotivr: pert.
exchequers for Ireland and England— a distinction which
of the hon. and learned member's scheme they had no
now no longer existed. In addition to the fact that diffi-
security. Ho had, about six weeks ago, conversed with
culties of this kind no longer existed, was the further
friends of his of the Conservative party when there was
fact that since the union departments had been created
in Dublin which did not then exist. There had been no expectation of their cooling into office, rrki they e,'l
denounced the Lord-Lieutenancy as a sham, but no et the
created a department of police, comprising a large body
feeling of the great party opposite was in f ,your of the
of men, who now undertook many duties which were for-
Lard-Lieutenancy. If instead of the Lord-Lieutenant
nierly undertaken by the military. Besides the police,
there was a Cabinet Mini-ter with a seat in Parliament,
there was in Dublin a department for the administra-
who could occasionally be in Ireland, it might be a better
tion of the poor law. These two constituted important
arrangement—but the present system greatly diminished
departments of administration in Ireland, which had a
the responsibility of the government of Ireland. lie felt,
legal character, and which might continue to hold their
however, great difficulty in meddling with this great in-
let:al position though the Lord Lieutenancy no longer
oitutioo, although he wished that some better machinery
existed. On the other hand, the administration of re
for the government of Ireland could be adopted.
venue, the customs, taxes, and stamps, had been with Mr. VANCE regretted that the hon. and learned gen-
drawn from Ireland, and were now located in London.
All these things afforded facilities for abolishing the tleman (Mr. Roebuck) had not left this miter in the
hands of the Government, instead of trying to get a hos-
office of Lord-Lieutenant which did not exist at the time
tile vote against an office which the people of Ireland
of the passing of the Act of Union. Everybody must see
desired to retain, and which the hon. and learned gentle-
that through the increased conveyances of steam and of
man would not have wished to abolish, if he knew the
the electric telegraph - through the changes which had
country better than he did. The hon. and learned gentle-
taken place in the mode of administration at Dublin
man had raised a subject of contention which would cause
since the year 1800—it was impossible to look for the
considerable discord if persisted in. He regretted that the
permanent continuance of the office of Lord-Lieutenant.
previous question had been moved, as he should have
(Hear.) The house must indeed come, he thought, to
preferred that this question should be settled by a vote.
the conclusion, He believed it would be impossible to over-rate the dis-
that it should consider the office as a
temporary one, t• be left only until some mode of admi-
nistration could be substituted for it. Therefore, with content, and he would almost say the disloyalty, in Ire-
regard to the first part of the resolution which had been land which such a change would cause.
proposed, he should be prepared to yield an assent to Mr. W. EVANS, in declaring his intention to vote
the views of the hon. member. But the resolution in- for the motion, said that the noble lord, the Secretary
volved a second branch, which was not the abolition of for Ireland, had stated that important duties were per-
the Lord-Lieutenanoy, but the establishment of a depart- formed by the Lord Lieutenant which were peculiar to
meat of Secretary of Rate charged with the affairs of Ireland, but he (Mr. Evans) thought that it could not be
Ireland. He must in the first place admit that looking to taken for granted that the Secretary of State for Ire
the q f
uestion as one ofoxpense, he thought no great saving land should be unacquainted with Ireland, and if so, he
could arise from the substitution of a secretary of state or could perform these peculiar duties. Indeed that func-
the Lord-Lieutenant, His hon. friend had estimated the tionary ought always to be selected for his being convey-
sant with the affairs of Ireland. The objection which
eepenseonthe Lord-Lientenancy at 60,000/. a-year, but he
formerly applied to governing Ireland in this country
did not say how he arrived at that sum, and he (Sir G.
was done away with by the almost annihilation of tieae
Lewis) thought that the amount was over estimated.
and space by modern science. It was desirable that the
The salary of the Lord-Lieutenant was 10,0001. a-year,
and the household expenses could not exceed 5,000/. Secretary for Ireland stould have a seat in that house
in order to answer pestlene relating to Irish affa rs
There were some expenses for the maintenance of build
and to have Irini business under his care ; bet now it
lags—for keeping up the house at Phoenix-park, and at
the Castle, but he thought it would be very difficult to was difficult to find out who was responsible for what was
aleengoing on in Ireland. Another ground on which he °b-
the entire annual charge to a greater amount than
cted to the Lard Lieutenancy was one with which he
30,0001. a-year. An office of Secretary of State, with two i
under secretaries, and an establishment which would be spokes with great deference to Irish members, and with-
necessary for a Secretary of State, would not fall far short out wishing to say anything offensive to them. He
of 20,000?. Then there would be a sum for compensation; thought that the Lord-Lieutenancy was an anti-national
for on all changes of system there were perseas to bo institution and approaching to a badge of servitude.
compensated. Thus, for some time, the amount which Then he objected to the continuance of this place on the '
Would be saved by such a change would be very slight. ground o' economy. Another in
duce,
Hence which would
Hence the institution of another office of Secretary of him to vote for the motion was, that we should be no.,
State could not be considered as a matter of economy, only in name, bat in reality, a united kingdom. Fur the
bolt of administration. Dismissing the topic of economy, reasons
his v
he had
favour in
eta ed he
the
motion.ouldthik it his duty to re•
lie came to the question whether it was expedient to cordsub-
...
Mr. P. O'BRIElof h
did not cencur with the member for
wondered that the hon. and learaed member did not upon
stitute a Secretary of State for the Lord-Lieutenant. Ha
1 Louth, that it was improper for private members to
eain-
this point refer to the precedent which history afforded i troduce a m sure of this description—that they were
of the Secretary of State for Scotland. The introduction not prepared to have continuous agitation in Ireland on
of anew Secretary of State was a proposal made some this question. He rose to identify himself with what an
years ago. Then his noble friend the member for the city lion. member opposite had called a time-honoured edifice.
of London (Lord J. Russell) wee at the head of the Gee ! (Hear, hear.) He did not think that the administration
verament, and at that time he (Sir G. Lewis) was pre- ! ( f Ireland should be left in the hands of a military corn
I
Oared to give his vote in favour of that proposal. But since Lander, which he considered would be the result of
that bill was introduced the house had created a fourth abolishing, the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.
Mr. BENTINCK regretted that the division had not
Secretary of State, they had divided the colonial and war ,
taken place bog agonlie had totaled to the speeches o`
patient The question now arose whether it eta ex-
the hon. member for Sheffield, of the hon. member for
patient to constitute a fifth secretary. That somewhat al •
tiered the position of the eatiou • and moreover, since Roscommon, and of the Secretary for Ireland, and the
that time the state of Ireland
, hoeftltenme more tranquil, I then considered the question disposed of. He regretted
- and lees requiring the inititoon of ;separate department I
.that a night should have been wetted on such a discua
eor Ireland. Ile coefess,_d that lookinY at the matter a slon•
it stood at present, he was rot'd.Mr. BAGWELL said he should not quote from for-
proposal for the creation if 'a
filtriPS°eTrlettaoryactcle(Sletatte, thefor mer deltat,s. The rai question was, hew they the ilk
Endued. What would be the position of such a secretary best govern Ireland. There was an essential chinereuce
during the recetst Daring therecees would he be required between Ireland and England. Ireland Was a country
to visit Ireland and t) reeiee there t If so, howcouhl of a different race, and, he was sorry to say, of a diffa
he attend the meetings of the Cabinet-, which'
generally rent religion. Toe Celtic and the Aihie,io-ISaxon
,rtacibees
took place during tiie recess, fur the consideration cf had not mingle:l. The Anglo-Saxon a, .
theaeuree to be broutht forward in the ensuing Perna. come Celtic in his feelings, but the races remained eduapiaiertir,-,
tnent. If be were to live entirely in during the tune and he was afraid there was little prospect of their
when Parliament was not tilting,of fact Ireland was go.
his Position would be speedy arealgarnw ion. In point
almost the same as that of the Ler,l-Lieutenant. If, en , vetoed by 11,000 or 12,000 policemen, and 71 stipen-
.
the ether hand, he was to attend Cabinet meetinee, it diary magistrates. The institutions of the two countrece
would not be possible for ban to sent Ireland. lie ‘
tor:- were entirely different, and, no doubt, in the tuba ppt
require
fessed that it seemed to him tat the house ought not to state of Ireland under which the present system had
rere the abolition of the Lordwieetenaney until the grown np, ie. was wise and politic that it should be so.
enteirs of that country were in such aposition that the At the same time, he thought that the change now pre-
eta
„teepwrktte m_itt_hrt..b.e
_mada without involving 'the creation ,t posed would 6 a better for Ireland, and better for Edg-
ar., ~,,nr, ttetTytkleartmerit. He did not think that the land also. (Cheers.)
the home-or to distant,e when it would be possible for Lord J. RUSSELL acquitted the hon. and
necessity for a sep ..
...t
4,3 t general directions without the member of any 'presumption in bringing forward this
that time arrived—and department f" Ireland. -MAU queatien ; for if the hon. gentleman held any strong opi-
had then arrived—it ereete,
utir
thought, be
to say it oion with n Bard to the Lord-Lieutenancy, or any ce her
w i4t t 3 beeatrelytteerL7o. sruizetllhitkitvhlee had on'y performed hie duty in bringing E
retain the present organitation.
At the Cl9BO of the right hon. gentleman's94 A before the house ; and the turn the debate had taken
-refs
v yto
well convincedwo Eth e 0
n everyconsideration,
~,
tone,ion , notuu tonl
thaty tehoa tl
otnhge
time
be-
Much laughter was caused by the fact that n
m a n
:::::utothi erhlea,:msoeuusrltTufl;e4r e the views of the ho n . 'Mg,"
Irish member present rose to address the house.
thought that the speech buten when t meet with a
igzeirt
aceunlaciudrdreonvicae.th(fle 'deoaer,.
- The SPLI.ICER called upon
who
Mr. BLACKBURN,
f the right hon. gentle
' t fallen to n
*Bich had Ps . , tha expediency of adopting the Ireland, they lo 16,1,4_ , the • •
proved conclusivelythe were alwa s‘..- -0. the t administration in
which he (Mr. Blackburn) bad laced
pon , Y chatning, and that '
with this
aiicumstances
amendment should not go beyOnd CUMMUCeir, a change of policy ay,,,l,.`te 011atlffq of cir-
the motion adopted. Jae (-he noble lord) did not ''''' yr'
paper, viz., that the . .
n of the Lord-Lieutenancy.
time of the Union not de
there were reasons which
ry properly
',3, tha t at the
the motion for the abolition
Roebuck) had attributed .
necessary to keep up the executive in 1"-
it (11r.der it
The hon. member opposite i-
unusual in the bon. ed to him that the cimmstauce
It to a worse motive. It was not
be attributed, to but it appears et the
member, where several motives could

country had so much altered that it had become a matter
at all events worth consideration, whether it might not
be advantageous even for Ireland itself that the separate
executive should no longer exist. (Hear, hear.) In a
debate on this subject, many years ago, Sir R. Peel gave
as a reason, and as a conclusive reason, against the abo-
lition of the Lord-Lieutenancy, that it was necessary to
have a Lord-Lieutenant, in order to consider, in capital
cases, any applications which might be made for mercy ;
but the increased facilities of communication which had
been established had removed any difficulty there would
be in applying in such cases to the Home Secretary.
(Hear, hear.) No doubt it would be better to have only
one administration for the whole kingdom, and that was
the opinion of one of the wisest statesmen who had ever

arisen in this country. When the Union of Scotland
took place, the Scotch Privy Council was a time-
honoured body, and possessed of every advantage which
had been attributed to the lord-lieutenancy ; but Lord
Somers said that the Union would never be complete

unless there was one administration for the whole co un-

try, and he therefore ineiated upon its abolition: (Hear,

tear.) There was no doubt great difficulty in saying
what should be put in the place of the Lord-Lieu-
tenancy. When be (Lord J. Russell), seven or eight
years ago, introduced a measure the second reading of
which was carried by a large majority, he proposed that
there should be a Secretary of State for Ireland. Many
persoul felt a strong objection to that proposition, on
the ground that it would keep a separate Irish adminis-
tration. He (the noble lord) thought there was great
force in the objection which had been made by his right
hon. friend the late Lord Chancellor ; but that certainly
was not the question that night ; and there were ways
in which the difficulty might be surmounted. In the
Home-office there were many function 3 which did not
properly belong to it, and which might be separated
from it. If that were done there might be only one

Secretary of State for England, SOottaud, and Ire-
land ; and that would be far better than having two
Secretaries of State. If that suggestion were adopted,

it might be neces-ary to create—a
separate adniinisl
tration, or the duties of the Board of Trade, the
Board of Health, and other departments might be
increased. (Hear.) With regard to the motion before the
house, if he had found that the Government were alto-
gether opposed to it—if the Chief Secretary for Ireland
had said that the office must be perpetually maintained,
and that the Government of Ireland could not be carried
on without it—he should at any risk have supported the
motion of the hon. member for Sheffield. But the Chief

Secretary said nothing of the kind. It was true that he
said that there was great advantage in the personal com-
munication which the people of Ireland had with the
Lord-Lieutenant; but the advantage was counterbalanced
by the want of personal communication here. Gentlemen
connected with Ireland who had any application to make
to the Government were certain of a favourable recep-
tion from the Lord-Lieutenant ; and hence a Lord-Lieu-
tenant was always more popular than a Secretary,
but the Lord-Lieuteaaut had of course to report the case
to her Majesty's Government, and he could not do that
so well in writing as the deputation had done, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Home Secretary
might take quite a different view, and totally refuse the
application. He (Lord J. Russell) believed that when
gen lemen had what was really a public question to bring
before the Administration, they would have a better
chance of success if they had come to London than if, as
at present, they were only able to state the case to the
Lord-Lieutenant. (Cheers.) The matter was a difficult
one; but was entirely one for the Executive Govern-
ment, and he should therefore be disposed for the present
to leave it in their hands, and support the previous ques-
t Lion. The noble lord the Chief Secretary seemed to think
' that a time might come when tho members for Ireland
would be disposed to look upon the proposed change
with favour. Under these circumstances, he (Lord J.
Russe 1) thought it would be a great disadvantage if they
came to a vote e high was considered by the representa-
tives of Ireland as intended in any way to hurt their
feelings or to go against their wishes. (Hear.) For his
part, he would rather see the question fairly and calmly
discussed—he would rather see it put upon ;he represen-
tatives of Ireland to reconsider it. If that were done
and if the government would also consider the best
mode of meeting the ditficul y, they might in a short
time arrive at a solution which would be much more
satisfactory to alt parties than if a vote of that house
were carried against the wishes of the present and the
views of the late government.
Mr. WALPOLE warned the house against being
carried away with the notion that the present govern-
ment felt they could see their way at this moment to
make the change proposed. He quite agreed with every
word which had fallen from his noble friend, and that
the course the government ought to take was not to ne-
gative the motion, but simply to say that they ought not
at this time to agree to the substitute indicated by the
bon. and learned member. (Hear, hear.) Before they
agreed to the proposition before the house it ought to be
shown that the advantages of the proposed substitute
would counterbalance the advantai es of the present
system ; whereas he bel e ted that in several respects a
Lord-Lieutt nancy wa-; infinitely better than the specific
preposal of the hon. gentleman. (Cheers.) In the first
place, it was a great advantage that so much local know-
ledge should be brought to bear upon the executive in
Ireland. The beneficial results arising from having a
local authority resident in Ireland had been strongly il-
lustrated by his noble friend. The Lord-Lieutenant had
to be in communication with 600 petty sessions, with
71 stipendiary magivratee, and with a vast number of
assistant barristers. He had to superintend, in fact, the
whole criminal jurisprudence of tins country. He had
also to exercise a control over the army and the police,
and he was the temporal head in all eccledastical mat-
ters. In a word, all the filactions of the Queen herself '
were vested in the Lord-Lieutenant when the Sove-
reign was not in the country. Now, if a Secretary
of State a ere appointed in Ireland he must be absent from
Lie post during the whole of the Patlipnentary session,
or else his duties must be perbrmel by some sub-
ordinate officer, an arrangement which could not be re-
garded as a beneficial one. He (,Ir. Walpole) had
voted in the majority on the noble lord's (Lord John
Russell's) measure sterna years ago. He had done so
because he thought that there would have been
some enlestltute found for the Lord-Lieutenancy, and
because he thought that whether the change took place
would depend upon the wishes of the people of Ireland.
(Cheers ) The more the discussion proceeded in 1850 the
more strongly ib came out that there would be a great
inconvenience in appointing a Secretary of State for Ire-
land. That was a difficulty which he believed the noble
lord himself felt. (hear.) Because, if they appointed a
Secretary, they would be ceding the principle which had
been established when the exchequer of Ireland was con-
solidated with the exchequer of B gland. Great advan-
tage had accrued from having only,nne exchequer ; and
it was equally desirable that the functions of the execu-
tive shoull also be consolidated. (Hear.) With two
Secretaries of State there might be a conflict of opinion,
and if they did not agree there would be a weakening in-
stead of strengthening of their functions. They might
have two leghletione at the same time—one applicable
to Ireland and the other to England—when their object
should be to assimilate the two as far as possible. If they
had a Secretary of State for Ireland, he must reside here,
and residing here it would be difficult to provide at the
moment for cases of emergency. (Hear.) At present
there was one pervading mind running thrcugb the admi-
nistration of affairs, and he did not think they ought to
part with this advantage till they were sure, or at least
had something like a probability of being able to obtain
superior or equivalent advantaee; without losing those
he had pointed out. Tnese were the reasons why he
thought that this government, or any government, could
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further consideration, whether they could provide a sub-
stitute which would enable them to govern Irela id wisely
and temporately, and by means of that local inforusation
which the Government now possessed, which would
enabhs them to exercise the powers of government
promptly and vigorously, and to secure thereby a
good administration of affairs and full attention to
the wants of the people of Ireland, and at the sane time
get rid of any difficulty which might arise from conflict-
ing or concurrent authority. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON begged to state in a few words
the grounds on which he should vote fir the motion of
the previous question. Any one who attentively gave
his mind to consider the principles of administrative im-
provement must on the first blush hold, he thought, that
it would be advantageous to abolish the efface of Lent-
. Lieutenant, and to make same other arrangement for
:conducting the affairs of [ref old. But if such person
looked a little deeper int) local circumstances and re-
flected on national feelings, he might be led to think the
arrangement was more dietteU than at first eight it ap-
peared to be. (Heir.) Tee arrangement, no far as ad-
milistrat vs functions wire c rrcerned, would be very
simple and In ac'exable. At one time he thought that it
might be advantageous if the office ef Ler l-Lieutenant
were aboliehed, and a second Secretary of State for the
Irish department created, but second zeffiction taught
him that that would not necessarly be an advantageous
arrangement. He thought that if some of the dutit s now
connected with the Home-office senre treraferred to other
departments, the Home-office might well he able to trans-
act the whree business of Eeg aid and Ireland with the
aid of an Under-Secretary of State. (ll.nr ) Therefore,
as far as the organisation of adruinietrative functions
were concerne I he sew no itomrrnoun,ab'e difficulty in
the arraegenaent proposed. And there were marry things
belonging to the present tins eyelet' diminished the
difficulties that in former years opposed such arrange-
nn.nt. He remembered being in Dub:in when sailing
packets were the only method ef commuuiceti in, and
when for six days no Eeglish m=ill had arrived. Bat now
the communcetiou by electric telegraph accomplished in
six minutes what in former times was not done in six
days Therefore the improve m -nt , f modern times gave
laeilities of cemmuilicetion both of persons and ii.f ,rota-
tion, no ich rendered the change more easy than in
any for:ner period of trill,. However, there were
other circumstances which onu,t le ed them to look
before them. (Hear.) The cane cf Scotland had been
urged as au anasootis case, in order to show that It was
not neces ary to have a ceto administration fir Ire-
land. But the tiouee ,hould roe :fleet teat the internal clr-
curnstarice s of Sc 4 land and Ireland were different.
(Hear.) The people of Scotland, wt. h the cue •ption of
small diff.rences of ecohniastic,l dieeipliee, were: united
in religious doctrine, but the case was, une)rtueately,
different in Ireland, and those religions differences
amongst the people of Ireland must give r:se to more
questions of controversy, and must embitter those ques-
tions ire a greater degree than in Scotland. (Hear, hoar.)
Tuere was, tlerk f we, advantage in having a local autho-
rity to settle those questions without referring them to
London; and there was great advantage, if these goes-
tious were to be locally settled, that they should be
settled by high h •
i eneae__ aut env, such as that of the Lord-
.""itt who, generally speaking, did not btl mg to