The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-29 00:00:00

courteous. If he had said a. 'l.3'tle .ng discourteous be
extremely regretted it. (Hear, r.) He considered
the course which the Government -! ook perfectly regular
and straightforward. The hon. at id gallant gentleman
''seemed to him to misunderstand he position in which
by an unfortunate accident he found himself. This was
not the first time in his life that he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) had seen theme wl to really seemed to de-
serve success, and who had laboiert ed hard to attain it, emn
barrassed by unexpected good foi me. (Laughter.) It was
said that the bird never made so much noise as when
she'laid her first egg ' • and he could easily conceive an
hon. gentleman who lad just c arried hie first resolution
being overpowered by succes 1. (Laughter.) But, as
the laying of the first egg wa it only a very natural ope-
ration, so the carrying of the first resolution was in the
due course of Parliamentary t I ature, and though it was
not the good fortune of everyon a to meet with it, every-
one should be prepared for se cc eec. (Laughter.) Now
what was the carrying of this is asolution ? There was a
declaration of the house to a certain extend ; but, in-
stead of proceeding in the path o n which he Ii d entered,
the hon. gentleman, stupefied with success, ea,'d in effect
—"I have gained the, opinion of the House or. Commons
in favour of the policy which recommend—l shrink
from pursuing that policy—(No, no)—and I ask you to
come forward and rescind my resolution." Trembling
at the continuance of success, he looked forvrard to the
safety-valve of Ministers getting his resolution 'rescinded.
Now, he thought the conduct of the hon. eeentleman
was, to use an expression of his own, unsatis ictory and
unprecedented. (Hear, hear.) There had, inideed, been
instances of revolutions being rescinded in tiiat house.
He could mention t. o ; but both bad reference to fiscal
matters, and it was absolutely necessary to rescind
them, because if they had been left unnoticed. they would
have affected the revenue of the country. Toe two re-
solutions to which he referred related respectively to the
malt duties and the sugar duties. The hon. and gallant
gentleman (Capt. Vivian) would neither ask the house to
assist him in carrying his policy into effect nor rest con-
tented with the barren triumph he had alreaify achieved,
but he had rated and scolded the minisitry because
they did not act upon his resolution or propose
to rescind it. Now, he maintained that the course
which they bad taken was a parliamentary course,
a course which was jcstified by precedents, and
that they had done their duty throughout these
transactions. He should hardly notice the general ob-
servations of his hon. and gallant friend, as he had an-
nounced tbst he intended to bring the subject before the
house on souse future occasion ; but he must say, with
regard to the instances of France, Austria, and other
great military states which be bad adduced a 3 prece-
dents fir this country, that he could not forget that the
laws, audananners, and customs of England were dif-
ferent from those of great military and centralised states.
(Hear.) IF, indeed, the Commander-in-Chief was totally
irresponsible, or in any way irresponsible, he should be
perfectly ready to meet any hon. gentleman who pro-
posed to consider a state-of things so anomalous in rela•
Lion to the constitution and se injurious to the service
of the country. But, knowing as be did, from every
day's experience, that the Conawandenin•Chief was
under the direct authority of the Secretary of State, and
could do nothing without his approbation, not only was
he contented, but he rejoiced that in a country like this
the discipline of the army was left to the Commander-
in-Chief, while the civil administration was carried on
by the Secretary of State, the Commander-in-Cold
being, not only on great questions, but practically on
every question, responsible to the Government of the
day, while the Government was responsible to Parlia-
ment. That was a system which, in his opinion, was
more consistent with constitutional government than
any of the centralised systems to which the hon, and
gallant gentleman bad referred. The hon. and gallant
gentleman, in speaking of the patronage of the army,
said he ebould be very sorry to see that corrupting
element introduced into the House of Commons, adding
that he had no doubt some plan might be devised by
which that would be prevented. What was wanted,
however, on questions of this kind was, for reformers to
come for Nara with some pleas. (Hear.) They did not
want mere windy announcements of great changes
wits the salvo that no doubt when the question was
discussed, the obvious difficulties would be removed. If
the hon, and gallant gentleman himself proposed some
mode of meeting these difficulties, he would occupy a
much more commanding position than he did by having
obtained a majority of one or two. This imaj way would
of course have been sufficient on the last stage of the
bill, but when the hon. and gallant gentleman assumed
that such a majority in favour of a resolution constituted
an expression of opinion which could not be revoked or
questioned, he must join issue with bin]. He would un-
dertake, when this question was brought forward with
fair notice, there should be no lack of discussion, and
that so far as the Government were concerned, the mat-
ter should have that fair mid ample deliberation which it
deserved. (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was true that this Govern-
ment differed from the Governments of foreign countries
in this respect, that Parliament had a voice which was
ent,tled to its weight, but the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer put it that the Parliament had indeed the power of
expressing an opinion, and then it was for the Minister
to consider whether that opinion should be acted on or
no. He could not understand that the decisions of this
house were to be held at nought. (Hear hear.) The
right hon. gentleman quoted precedents, but they were
cases in which the resolution could not be carried out
without an act of Parliament. One case was one in
which an act of Parliament was proposed by Govern-
ment, in accordance with the resolution which met the
approval of the house. There was one precedent which
apilied, that of the resolution on the diplomatic service,
bet he could not think the Minister was justified in pay-
ing no attention to the resolution. If that was to be the
constant course, resolutions of this house would become
wholly futile, Tuis resolution was one which collet not
be made the foundation of an act of Parliament, it was
a question of administration, and Government ought
eitner to have acted on it, or, it they said it, was carried
by a small raj wity and by surprise, to have moved a
resolution to rescind it—(hear, bear)— and not to affect
to despise it. It would be unconstitutional that resolu-
tions should be p'aced on record and no attention paid
to them. He thought his hon, and gallant friend was
right in not pressing the matter further at this advanced
period of the session. His hon. and galleet friend bad
said that he did not wish to take from the Commander.
in-Chief the control of the army, for it had been said on
the other side that the proposal was to place the disci-
pline of the army under a civilian. It was unwise for
a Cemmanderea.Chief to di.ipise tho opinion of this
house. When a resolution was proposed by Sr John
Bowling on the question of floggiug, in the army, the
late Duke of Wellington tbought that such a motion
would be dangerous to the discipline of the array, But
the Mite of Wellington knehs bow publio opinion swayed
• ee sou' try and this house, and he proposed a resolution
to meet teei, ai Se J. hie*. If •
in-Chief acted under the authority of the Secretary us
State, an inquiry would no doubt easily eaters this ques-
tiern He thought wise: ought to be done was to have
an inquiry next session, The authority of this house
ought to have great weight in the matter. He hoped
that there would be an inquiry, and that the army
would be placed in a position worthy of it.
General PEEL said that when it was complained that
the resolution of the bun, and gallant member was not
carried out, he must way he was at a loss to know how
it was to be carried out, if the bon, and gallant gentle-
man did not whits to interfere with the discipline or
patronage of the army. He could not see where there
was a division of responsibility, which he thought was
clearly laid down lu the patents. He was responsible
directly tr everything but the discipline and patronage,
and indirectly for them, If there were any gross miss
oouduct en the part of the Conlinander-in•Chief, the
Minister would have to call on him for explanations,
and if they were not satisfactory, to insist on his re-
moval or resign office. He had found no difficulty, and
was working in perfect harmony with the Commander-
ie-Chiee and he had not the slightest doubt that if Par-
liament would not interfere with the army, it would be
carried on ranch more satisfactorily.
Colonel NORTH had conversed with a great number
of officers, who were ell of opinion that nothing could be
more dangerous for the welfare of the army than this
motion. Bat, in order to get an affirmative answer from
those miner, he had consulted, his hon. and gallant
friend must bate introducAl the question by a compari-
son with foreign countries. No doubt if the Minister
at War could always be a soldier, then it would bo best
that the two offices should be combined, The evils
which had arisen arose ineinly from the interference of
wstsiteresseaeurese-Stierew hear, and oh, ob.) The
green coffee in the Crimes, to wit, fit they owed that
to Sir Charles Treeelyae. The member for Bodtnin,
who, during the discussion, was running about like an
aide.de camp, owed his majority of two to Lord J. Res.
sell ceding out to him, "Now is your time,", (e.laegh.)
Ha contended that this resolution struck at the pre-
rogative of the Crown. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
lie could not help thinking that the letter. of civilians
had no otj .ct but to throw di,,credit on the state-
ments of his right hon. and gal;arit friend the Secretary
f it War, than whom no man enjoyed more completely
the confidence of the officers of the army. He had
answered all questions in the most complete, satisfac-
tory, honourable, and straight orward manner. The
gallant cidenel then entered into some explanations ns
to the question be had put a few nights ago with re-
spect to the see of commissions by the Commander-in-
Chief. He believed the fact was as stated on that occa.
eien—tie", no commission had been sold since 1825.
Sir W. CODRINGTON said the great difficulty was
to draw the line of distinction where the authority of
one ended and the other began, and as long :is the two
worked ac harmoniously as at present, there would be
no clashing. But there was a line where clashing might
arise. The line ought to be drawn distinctly either by
words or by cushier!, lie would defy the Secretary of
War, if e civilian, to say that he would he responsible
for courtsonateial as for the distribution of honours.
The responsibility, whether direct or indirect, should be
in the name of the Column ender-in-Chief 4iinsulf, or he
wool i ha sheltetine himself limier the nominal responsi-
bility of the Secretary for War. The latter, however,
must necessarily be responsible for the expenditure and
for the civil departotents. It was of course impossible
to compare this country, with its control of Parliament
over expenditure, with any of the foreign countries al-
luded to.

Mr. ELLIS agreed with Ills honourable and gallant
friend (Geoerni Pee!), but then the question wa,, whe-
ther he had sufficient command over the (omMander.!n•
Chief to be respon&ible fur his actions, bearing in mind
he was not responsible to that house. The question de-
pended on thi,, whether the time had arrived if the
only person to tako the opinion of the Crown upon
military affairs was the Secretary of State for War,
(Hear, hels.) He eulogised the conduct of the right
hon. ger.tleman since he bad held office, and said the
service could not be in better band:. (Hear, hear.)
With respect to the whole system, the house required
great if formation to know that the consolidations
were is the right direction, and would answer the autici-