The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-21 00:00:00

__,SD AY EVENING, JULY 21, 1858.

much better to leave the whole matter to her
-sty's Government than to adopt those resolutions.
Sir E. B. LYTTON—Sir, it is with some reserve that
approach the great and difficult questions involved in
the resolutions of my hon. and learned friend. The
Government, as yet, are in the condition of negotiators.
Certain distinct propositions, as the right hon. gentle.
man who spoke last told us, were made to Canada by
the lett) Government with regard to any districts now
covered by the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company
which. she might desire for the purposes of settlement.
And, 'whatever cause there may be to suppose that
Canr,da will reject those proposals, still every motive of
policy, as well as of respect to that great colony would
make us desire that any other scheme for colonisation in
that region may have her sympathy and concurrence,
(Hear.) Still, Sir, I own that the probability that
Canada will reject the proposals made to her is so noto-
rious, and the interests involved in this vast question
are so great, that I cannot hesitate to state, at least, the
general views by which I venture to think we ought to
be guided. (Hear.) In glancing over the vast regions
devoted to the fur trade, which are loosely said to be as
large as Europe, the first thought of every intelligent
Englishman must be that of humiliation and amaze.
Is it possible that so great a segment of the earth,
under the English sceptre, can have so long
been abandoned as a desolate hunting ground for
wandering savages and wild animals' I put aside, for a
moment, excuses of roil and climate; it is always pre-
sumptuous to decide hastily between man and nature—
to say what man may or may not do to conquer those
obstacles of soil and climate which nature may raise
against him. It is enough for us to cling to the grand
principle that civilisation should be left to find its own
voluntary channels; that we should not force it, but
should take care not to obstruct it. (Hear, hear.) No
one can deny that a trade which preserves wild animals
and has a direct interest in excluding civilised men does
obstruct civilisation, if it claims territorial rights in any
district which civilised men are disposed to cultivate and
inhabit. (Hear, hear.) The right hon, gentleman the
member for the University of Oxford summed up the
general evidence before our committee in the first two
of a series of resolutions which he proposed to that com-
mittee ; first, that the country capable of colonisation
should be withdrawn from the jurisdiction of the Hud-
son's Bay Company ; secondly, that the country in-
capable of coloeisationshould be left to that jurisdiction.
In the two abstract principles ins olved to these propo-
sitions lies the readiest solution of the grave difficulties
that beset the question ; it is the attempt of a practised
statesman to effect a compromise by which civilisation
may gain all it asks at present, and humanity may not
only preserve to the savages scattered over frozen
deserts, inaccessiLle to regular government, the trade on
which they depend for existence, but guard them from
the terrible demoralisation produced by rival bribes of
ardent spirit, and the strife and bloodshed among
themselves, or between themselves and the whites,
which might fellow if the administrative machinery
which it is the interest of a trading company to
establish were destroyed before any effective substitute
could be found. These are the reasons which will
weigh upon the Government in considering the renewal
of the licence. They will certainly not renew the
licence over any part of the Indian territory which pro-
mises early settlement ; but they reserve for further de-
liberation whether they will renew it for a limited period
over the more remote and northern regions, taking care
that the Government shall have always the power to
withdraw from that license any land that may be re-
quired for the uses of civilized life ; that they shall retain
all the imperial rights to fisheries and mines, and what,
ever may pall forth human industry and enterprise in
pursuits more congenial to our age than that gloomy
trade in the skins of animals which seems to carry us
back to a date before the annals of history. Now,
although the renewal of the license may possibly form a
part of any fresh negotiations with the Hudson's: Bay
Company for arrangements respecting the Red' River
Settlement ; yet it ought in principle to be considered
apart from such arrangements, and on its own merits,—
in lands held as yet oily by the Indiana does the exclu-
sive license or does it not work well for the Indians ?
It is a question wholly distinct from that of the charter;
the license gives none ef the territorial rights which the
charter assumes—it involves no principle of compensa-
tion in case of any lands which colonists may require,
and it ought to he regarded simply as an instrument by
which the Government can effect that safeguard from
broil and disorder which in so vast an f profitless a wil-
derness the Goverment is not able of itself to establish.
But, whatever doubts may be entertained as to the
eec nail proposition of the right hoc. gentleman the
member for Oxford, that land incapable of colonisation
should be left to the jurisdiction of the Hudson's
Bay Company, no one can dispute the soundness of
the first proposition, that the country capable of
colonisation should be withdrawn from that jurisdic-
tion ; and turning our eyes from a trade which, unlike
all other mm roe, re tli'R 1:r ~t:`;, eLLuip-
Lion, but on the maintenance of the wilderness, it must
cheer us to see already, in the great border lands of
this hitherto inho pitable region, the opening prospect
of civilised life. (Hear, hear.) Already, by the Pacific,
Vancouver's Island has been added to the social commu-
nities of mankind. Already, in the large territory which
extends west of the Rocky Mountains, from the Ameri-
can frontier up to the skirts of the Russia-a domains, we
are laying the foundations of what may become, here-
after, a magnificent abode for the human race, and no .v
eastward of the RockyMoen'aine, we are invited to see
in the eettlement of the Red River, the nucleus rf anew
colony, a rampart against any hostile inroads from the
American frontier, and an essential arch, as it were, to
that great viaduct by which we hope one day to connect
the harbours of Vancouver with the Gulf of St. Law-
rence. This is the dietriet off, red to Canada, and I think
my hon. and learned Weed has good reason to presume
that Canada will decline the tack of forming it into a
colony at her own responsibility and charge. If the an-
swer from Canada be unfavourable, we have two options
—either to leave the district, as now, under the jurisdic-
tion of the Hudson's They Company, which nothing but
absolute necessity should justily,or
wtoilltpankoeditoninntto,
one
own hands and form a colon], which
day constitute a confederate part of a great Canadian
system, and which might meanwhile, perhaps, be admi-
nistered by a Government in concurrence with Canada.
To this there have been two objections. The first is the
presumed expense. This Ido not at present anticipate.
All healthful colonies should be. self-supporting, and I
agree with ley hon. and learned friend in the general
theory he advances with so much eloquence and wisdom.
Colonies will be self--supporting in proportion as you leave
them to raise their own revenues under free institutions.
The second objection is, that such a colony would not be
I peopled by Canadians ; that, owing to the easier access
from the American frontier, the majority of immigrants
would be A mericans. This objection does not alarm me.
In the first place, though the immigrants come from the
American territory as the readiest access, it does not
follow that they sh ould all be Americans. Probably
large numbers of our own countrymen, especially the
Scotch, would flock there, as well as Americans, and as
fn. Americans, once settled as British colonists it is pro-
bable that they would soon identify their national feel-
ings and interests with the land in which they lived, and
the conditions of the Imperial Government. (Hear,
hear.) It has been so alrea ly in Canada. It would be
so at Red River ; because all history tells us how soon
neer, if at all of kindred race, take, as it were, the stamp
and colour of the land in which they settle. We, in this
country, are an instance of that troth. No less than 16
counties in tuffs kingdom were given up to the inninigra
tion of the Danes, and probably the great mass of the
population in these counties, such as Yorkshire, Lin-
colnshire, Norfolk, are of Danish origin to this day. Yet
in a very short tune they became as heartily English and
as hostile to the Danes of the Baltic as the Angle-Saxons
of Kent. Nay, even the Normans, despite their pride
as a conquering race, despite the difference of language,
became in the third generation as intensely English and
anti-French in their national feelings as if they had been
Saxon Thegne. In short, no matter where men come
from, place them in ground covered by the Briti-h flag,
overshadowed, though at a distance, by the mild British
sceptre, and they will soon be British in sentiment and
feeling. All that I say on this score is, do not, on account
of such jealoueies and fears, obstruct cis ilisation. Here
is land fit for settlement ; if civilised men will settle in
it, let them. Never let us mind the difficulties of access,
soil, or climate. Leave the difficulties to them. Nature
and man will fight their own battle and make their own
peace. With regard to the fitness of the place itseif for
colonisation, I am contented to take the opinion of the
Hudson's Bay Company themselves ; for, in a letter from
Vie company to Lord Glentle, February 10, 1837, when
saosiklinagndforcalimreantee of th renewal
licence,oftehecounty o
r I
ffia
settlement are favourable to colonisation ; that it was
iatended that this settlement should be peopled, by emi-
grants from Britain, and that the company hoped to
thde it
Rsaeidd, River" t the
establish in time a valuable export trade Irons thence to
the mother country in wool, flax, tallow, and other agri-
cultural produce." Sanguine hopes 1 not realised since
1837 under the auspices of the company,
but which may
be more rapidly fulfilled when the company withdraws
from the place the shadow of its chilling protection.
(Hear.) With regard to the safety of a settlement at the
Red River from all ordinary attacks that might be made
on it from the American quarter, I have a most satis-
factory report from Sir W. Eyre, the lieutenant-general
commanding the forces in British North America. He
states that " the lied River settlement consists of about
8,000, of whom 2.000 are Irish, English, and Scotch ;
the remaining 6,000 all mostly half-breeds. They are ge-
nerally good shots, skilled in the use of fire arms, and
good horsemen. A local force or militia of at least 1,000
men could be easily organised and embodher." The bar-
racks are perfectly habitable, and the post defensible,
except against heavy ordnaece, which it would be diffe
cu tto bring np against it. Norway is the chief horse
depot of the company—the position might be made im-
pregnable. All communication between Like Superior
and the Rol River is aoss, according to Sir G. Simpson,
impracticeld, for any body of troops. "A few indivi-
duals might go, but not any force. There i., abundance
of provisions in the country ; no want need be appre-
hended ; water is good, wood abundant. The climate is
severe in winter, but healthy at all seasons." These
few extracts may suffice to show that a settlement once
established would be safe from danger from without.
As regards the fur trade in this district, I need scarcely
say, that if you take the land from the Hudson's Bay
Company, the monopoly that goes with the land will
expire. To attempt to maintain there the monopoly
would beimpossibie, and only give rise to perpetual feuds.
In fact, I must be pardoned if I say that there is good
reason to believe that that monopoly has practically in
a great m asure ec,ased to exist in those part. Major

Seton reports from Fort Garry itself—" The Hud-
son's Bay Company have long since abandoned in prac•
tico their pretensions to excloeive trade in this district
and far beyond it." Captain Palliser writes word
:
"That monopoly there is unattainable now and for ever
more ; that the people engaged in the illicit trade are in-
habitants of the Indian land, and born on its soil. Most
of them half-breeds, they are British subjects, and what-
ever the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company under the
charter, they think it a very hard case that they should
be debarred from trading in the land of their birth. There
appears to be a shadow of justice in this complaint ; but,
just or not, the opposition exists, ant nothing short of ex-
tirpating the people engaged in it can ever stop it."
Indeed, this report is so far confirmed by Mr. Shepherd
himself, on the part of the Hudson's Bay Company, that
he states, in a letter to the Colonial-office
That the diversion of the fur trade is carried on by the
inhabitants of the Red River settlement, who, regardless
of the Hudson's Bay Company, conduct an illicit trade in
spirituous liqoure and furs iu various parts of the country."
I think, therefore, there can be no doubt that when the
company yields the land it must resign the monopoly.
It will be an after consideration by what regulations the
trade should in that case be carried on so as to mair tain
order and peace, and respect that considerate humanity
which is due to the Indians. But now comes the diffi-
culty. The land we would thus dispose cf for colonisa-
tion is within the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company,
and if that charter be valid, the land belongs to the com-
pany, but not the monopoly of tho trade, except as in-
cludes the right of oilvnerahip to keep others off the land.
The law officers of the late Government, men of very
high distinction, consider—
" That the Crown cannot now, with justice, raise the
question of the general validity of the chattel, but that on
every legal principle the company's tee ritorial ownership
of the lands granted. and the rights incident thereto, as,
for example, the right of excluding from their country per-
sons acting in violation of their regulations, ought to be
deemed valid."
While this opinion of the late law officers remains before
us, unexamined by our own law officers, it would be pre-
eumptuons in me to express any opinion of my own. It
is our intention to submit the question to the most care.
Id and deliberate consideration of our law officers, and
ascertain from them whether in equity and justice we
could advise the Crown or recommend to Parliament any
mode by which to faCilitate a judicial decision upon this
venerable title-deed. But I am bound in justice to the
company to say that, though it might be very desirable
to try the validity of the charter, it is not absolutely
necessary to do so for any immediate objects of colonisa-
tion. it is but just to the company to say that it has not
hitherto shown itself stubborn or intractable. It does not
say, "You shall not have the land which our charter
covers." It says, on the contrary, "Take whatever laud
you please, Heaven forbid we should stand in the way of
civilisation. We are not the fit agents to colonise, we
have not the means for it ; we tried it at Vancouver's,
and are glad to get rid of the experiment; take, then,
whatever land you desire within the range of the charter.
Bet"—here comes the critical but we rely on your
honesty ;"—(hear)—in other words, "if you take from
us that which we actually possess without proving that
we have not the right to possess it—,se are human beings,
and we expect some kind of compensation." (Hear.)
Seeing all the embarrassments of this dilemma, I cannot
but admire the skill with which, in pursuance of the re-
port of our committee, the right hon. gentleman the
member for Taunton devised a scheme which was in-
tended to unite the objects we have in view with a tem-
perate conciliation towards the claims of the company.
He proposed to cede this territory to Canada if she
would agree to open a line of communication to it, and
give satisfactory evidence of her intension to take steps
for laying out townships and settling and administering
the affairs of these districts ; and as to the Hudson's
Bay Company, he proposed to renew its trading
licence for 21 years over the Nsi!derness not fitted for
colonisation ; and that three commissioners—one chosen
by Canada, one by the Imperial Government, and one
by the company—should consider and report what, under
all the circumstances of the case, might be justly payable
to the company in consequence of such contemplated
annexation, and in respect of property which they might
be required to surrender. Well, if Canada reject these
proposals, our hands are free for fresh negotiations and
unfettered action. Meanwhile, to sum up my answer to
the hon. and learned gentleman, first, I think the
licence ought not to be renewed except where civilisa-
tion has no requirements and law no other machinery
but that of the company, Secondly, with regard to
raising the question of the validity of the charter, it will
be submitted to our law officers, and we can obviously
spy nothing one way or other till their opinion is re-
ceived. Thirdly, I grant the expediency of strengthen-
ing our empire in NCii th America by substituting, and
in one connected frontier line, the colonies of Great
Britain for the hunting grounds of a trading company.
(Hear.) It is my sincere wish and hope that es-range-
ments for that object may be effected ia a spirit of
reasonable conciliation to all parties concerned, and that
we may thus lay the foundation of a civilised community,
upon those principles of humanity towards the red men,
and of honour and honesty towards the white, which our
civilisation should csery along with it wherever it ex-
tends, as the colonisers of old carried along with them a
fragment of their native earth, and a light from the altar
of their ancient council hall. (Cheers.) The company
have assured las of their desire to meet the
of the case iu a ~peril of concession, and I do hope that
early next session we may propose to Pardament arrange-
ments that will receive its approval. In the object be-
fore us we all have a common interest—to fulfil the mis-
sion of the Angle-Saxon race, in spreading inteltittence,
freedom, and Christian faith wherever Providoece gives
us the dominion of the soil, and industry and skill
build up cities in the desert. (Hear, hear.) Sir, hoping
that what I have said will satisfy my hon. and learned
friend at leent as to the general view of the Govern-
ment, I have only to thank the house for the indulgence
with which it has beard me. (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the right hon. gentleman
who had just sat down had a difficult task before him,
and he was quite sure that the house would be inclined
to give him whatever time he might think necessary in
orderto decide on the course of policy which might seem
most useful to the country, and he might say, for the
benefit cf mankind. There was one part of the question
which was easy, or at least apparently easy, but they
had no sooner settled the easy part of the question than
they found themselves in an almost inexplicable diffi-
culty. That part which was easy was that part of the
question which his right hon. friends the member for the
University, the member for Taunton, and the Secretary
of State were all agreed upon. They said there was part
,tt
ahe
tra territory
tnfoo rrwy,fah the
nsaii
ethsnahfiedPecel
of this territory that was fit for colonisation. So far they
were sailing in smooth water, and there were no rocks in
their way, but immediately they got beyond this part of
the question there arose a great number of questions be-
fore the matter could be settled. One question woe, brew
much was there of this territory which was capable of
colonisation ? They had next the question, by whom
should this territory be colonised? Should it be by Cana-
dians, or by emigrants from this country? And they had
then this further question—what were the rights of the
Hudson's Bay Company? He believed that the Hudson's
Bay Company considered this entirely es a commercial
speculation. They had not to deal with a company like
the East India Company, having a dominion and great
power and patronage, which they did not like to lose.
The Hudson's Bay Company looked only to profit, and
provided that was secured, and that their capital was
replaced, they took no farther interest in the question.
There remained that which he was afraid was at the
bottom of the question, which they must solve before
they could go farther in the project they all enter-
tained, namely, what were the legal rights of this
company ? The company said, "Take the whole
territory if you will, but do not let us be unjustly de-
prived of what we consider our property." Well,
but what was their property, and what were their rights ?
His right hon. friend (nr. Labouchere) had made propo-
sitions to Canada, to which, it appeared, there was no
answer. The question ought to be solved, and unless we
took some steps we might have the United States mak-
ing encroachments, and we might not have a fair solution
of this question. Well, then, it appeared to him, notwith •
standing the opinion of the law officers of the Crown,
e rf
grantedr o m hand,
them, tbhye
that they ought to have the decision of some legal tribu-
ti
do hrr
wuyvaal
hoddntys
odenn
tseoohsrotairifrtivbg
top: hhhorteuaeudtrcs
tol
oeest
uythr can
oosßdts.ho2.reyyopi
iiutietoel
hnedr
es:gablit
ateedi
over
nnerni
os,
wtttodhubbrooryuaubctt
sbe
whri
dt foo,.ta,
wbus
loanl
adn:
nal, because the whole ques-ion of the Iludsoe's Bay
Company depended upon it, If they had no claim to the
hail a claim and Parliament thought
then they had a claim for conipen•
charterbt he
e takeno tother
grLeuaoesrsodt
oMno
the Crown ; there is no particular I
wise opinion in their date! In 1749 they said, "Here is a
would be an ungracious thing for the Crown to raise the
itself has given this privilege." They acted on the prin-
ciple of Sir Robert Walpole, eetictss non moven." But
we had come to a different period—we bad come to a time
when these que Cone were all disturbed, and it was ne-
cessary to get some decision, whether by the Privy Coun •
cil or a court of law, wags point on which he could give
no cpiniou, but they ought to have some authoritative de-
cision in the first instance as to what the rights of the
company were. His hon. and learned friend said in his
third resolution that BO much of the territory as was fit
for colonisation ought to be reserved. Observe, he did not
say that the whole territory should be reserved, but so
much of it as might be used for colonisation. Thatseemed
to take it for granted that tbere was a portion in which
only furred animals and a few scattered Indians could
find subsistence. What portions were and what were not
fit for colonisation was a question for the ex etitive go-
vernment. With regard to the resolution that the pri-
vileges of the Hudson's Bay Company ought not to be
renewed, he was quite satisfied with the declamation
which the right ho s. gentleman had made. He thought
it of the utmost importance that the rights of the Hud-
son's Bay Company should be asset tained. The prospect
before u. 3 was of immense magnitude. There was the
whole question of the colonisation of that country from
Vancouver's Island to the banks of the Se Lawrence,
and the route along which railroads and other roads
might be laid might depend on the decision that might be
taken during the next twelve months. The question,
therefore, was of vast importance, and must occupy the
attention of Government, and when the right hon. gen-
leman had matured his plan it would be well worthy the
attention of the house. He was inclined to think it was

far better that they should have a separate collny than
that they should attach:that vast territory to Canada. In
tha firt placa there might be a considerable cost, soma
military forca might be necessary. If so, Canada would
hardly undertake the mpanse of military aid. He
thought it would be worthy of this country to establish
in that territory two or threo c,loniee, which might in

course of time resemble in some respects the great states
of the American Union.
Mr. A. MILLS contended that it was not desirable
that the charter of the company should be at once dis-
continued in the case of those districts at all events
which were incapable of colonisation. He might also be
permitted to observe that there appeared to him to be
much force in the remark that we ought to do every-
thing in our power to protect the native Indian race,
which his own experience tended to prove was rapidly
becoming extinguished. (Hear.) We should employ
all means to delay at least as much as possible the extinc-
tion of those races. In the spirit of the resolutions he
quite concurred, and would only add that he hoped the
day was not far distant when tho legal question that
had been raised should be finally nettled, (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LOWE thought if it was desirable to take from
the Hudson's Bay Company the territory of which they
were possessed, there could be little difficulty in the
matter; and if the company were not entitled to those
possessions they were not entitled to compensation.
But the Hudson's Bay Company were a trading and
a commercial company, and if by the legislation of that
house their trade should be injured and taken away from
them, then they would be entitled to compensation for
the injury. He confessed there was one thing which he
should much regret to see, arid that was the claims and
rights of the Hudson's Bay Company submitted to the
decision of a court of law. (Heel-, hear.) The Hud-
son's Bay Company had received their charter, with
certain grants of land, from Charles IL, and if, after
having held those lands for 200 years, they were now to
be taken from them by an act of Parliament, he must
say that such a proceeding would be a great wrong, and
a wrong of wbi oh the Government, should they have
recouroe to it, would have great reason to be ashamed.
(Hear, hear.) lois he would lay down as a maxim,
that no country ought to form a colony which she was
not able to defend. (Hear, hear.) The tight hon.
gentlemen then referred to the evidence of Colonel
Lefroy and other authorities who had surveyed
the Hue son Bay Company's territory, showing the
manner the company carry on their trade in the
different parts of the territory. (Hear, hear.) The
proposit:on or scheme for eotablishing a new colony
would simply, if it were carried out, place a large num,
ber of British subjects in the hands of the American Go-
vernment the first time a war between the two countries
took place. Then again, before a colony was established
there should be some reasonable prospects of its success.
To establish a colony might be matter of policy, but
success must depend on individual interests, and on com•
tnercial exertions. What lona fide interest would people
have in going to the Red River settlement ? If they
established a colony there, and failed in tempting people
to proceed thither, they would be doing the greatest pos-
sible mischief. t was, in his opinion, quite clear that
it was not desirable to introduce competition into the
fur trade. If they established a colony at the Red River
settlement, which was English in name and American
in spirit, they might be laying the foundation for a war
between England and America.
Mr. GILPIN said that his attention had always been
directed to the condition of the natives under the inla Of
the Hudson's Bay Company rather than to the question
of the monopoly or no monopoly of the company. He
was at a loss to understand the personnel of the Hud-
son's Bay Company. Its capital was undoubtedly in
very few hands. Believing that the claims of the com-
pany were illegal, he hoped the resolutions would be
adopted. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KINNAIRD, whilst he agreed with the noble
lord the member for London that the legal question
ought to be settled, thought with the hon. member for
Kidderminster that it was most unwise unnaturally to
foster colonisation. He denied the justness of the alle-
gations of cruelty brought against the company. Com-
paring the condition of the natives under the company
with that of those under the Americans, he was of
opinion that the former appeared in a much more favour-
able light.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE adverted to the inconsistency
between the aruasents of the hon. member for Not-
tingham (Mr. Gilpin) against the withdrawal of the pro-
tecting influence of the Hudson's Bay Company, and
his recent obj-ction to the continued presence of our
squadron on the west coast of Africa. He (Mr. Fur-
tcscue) contended that the natives had been treated
with the greatest consideration by the servants of the
company. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield
had, he thoughtf given a very highly coloured picture of
relations subsisting between the company and the
Indians. If the tie at present in force were severed
rudely ho believed that the territory would be valueless
to this country. He thought that the pledge of the
Colonial Secretary that a colony should be established
in the district of. the Red River, in the event of the
failure of Canada doing so, a rash one. The best mode
of leading to such a settlement would be by continuing,
under certain modifications, the powers of the Hudson's
Bay Company.
Mr. C. FITZ WILLIAM maintained that the Hudson's
Bay Company had been hardly dealt with. It was not
for people in this country to say what lands should be
colonised.
. Mr. WYLD thought that the compromise proposed
by the Government, if fairly carried ent, ~.,;L.1.1 be au-
,l-I)11,'e to th. Cauaeians and to the people of this
country.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD said that the settlement
of the legal rights of the company lay at the very thresh-
told of the question. The hon. and learned member for
Sheffield and the noble lord the member for London de-
sired to act in a spirit of justice and liberality towards
the Hudson's Bay Company, but before the measure of
justice could be meted out the rights of the company
must be determined. Be hoped the Government would
put this branch of the question in train for decision.
Mr. ROEBUCK, iu reply, said he thought the inte-
rest the subject bad' created a sufficient justification
for having brought it forward ; but he would not divide
the house on his proposition, as he should be averse to
be thought in antagonism with the Colonial Secretary,
whose opinions, if not entirely coincident with his own,
were generally in harmony with them. The honourable
and learned gentleman then replied specifically
to the honourable member for Kidderminster,
who had led the attack agaii at the resolutions.
Ho denied the imminence of the danger of col-
lision with America, which the honourable member had
shadowed out as arising from the necessity of going
through a portion of America to the Red River. The
fact was that the settlement could be reached by British
waters. The honourable and learned member then re-
plied to the remarks of Mr. Labouchere, contending that
white civilisation was better than red civilisation, and
that the question was whether we should by legislation
accelerate or retard its advancement.
The motion was then withdrawn.
THE RUSSIAN WAR AND BRITISH
PROPERTY.

Mr. CRAWFORD begged to "That an humble
address be preseutod to her Majesty, praying that she
will be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Com-
mission to inquire into the complaints made by certain
of her subjects of the destruction of their property by her
Majesty's forces at Uleaborg, in the Gulf of Bothnia,
during the recent war with the Emperor of Russia, as
more particularly set forth in memorials addressed by
Messrs. Mathieson and Ritter and Messrs. Henry
Dresser and Co., to the Lords Commissioners of the
Treasury." Premising that the matter involved not
only the interests of individuals, but the fair fame of this
country as a belligerent, he proceeded to state the cir-
cumstances of one of the cases, in which a quantity of
• timber, only calculated for building purposes, and not
therefore contraband of war, and which was private and
partly British property, had been destroyed in 1854 by
Admiral Plumridge. He characterised the transaction
as wanton and barbarous, without the slightest justifica-
tion, and in the teeth of the declared policy of our
Government and of a proclamation issued by Admiral
Plumridge himself, the place being quite defenceless.
Mr. ADAMS seconded the motion, He expressed
his regret that the Government had expressed its inten-
tion of opposing the motion, and he thought that they
had arrived at that conclusion without knowing the real
facts cf the case.
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped to satisfy the house that
there were two sides to the question. The Government,
he said, might have rested their opposition to the motion
on the ground that repeated applications have been made
upon the subject and rejected. The Government had
referred the question to the law officers of the Crown,
who had given a decided opinion against the claim for
compensation. He denied that the timber, which had
been destroyed along with a large quantity of pitcki and
tar by Admiral Pluinridg,e, was of a private nature ; it
was contraband of war, the timber being fit for the con-
struction of vessels, and no proof had been offered to the
Admiral that any part of the property belonged to
British merchants.

Mr. M. GII3SON said he did not mean to argue that
these parties had a legal title to indemnity, but he con-
tended that they had a moral, just, and equitable claim
upon the British Government f,l. the loss. It was well

known that the affair was a mistake.
Sir C. NAPIER. said that Admiral Plurnridga had
been perfectly right in the service be performed. It
had been stated upon authority that 12 gunboats had
been built at Uleaborg, and he thought it was unfair
that this matter should be brought before the house
four years after the occurrence.
Mr. WEGUELIN observed, that the question turned
upon this point—whether the articles were or were not
contraband of war, and all Mr. Crawford asked was a
commission to inquire into the circumstances of the
destruction of the property, and of what it consisted.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL remarked, that no
claim had been made in either of the cases till 1856, and
in one case not till the present year ; and he asked
whether it was right to listen to applications for com-

pensation so lonQ after the transaction, and when it
was so difficult to arrive at the truth. He disputed the

claims, however, upon their merits, maintaining thl
the articles destroyed were contraband of war.

Mr. CLAY avowed that he advised the delay of the
claims until after the termination At the war.
Th, tno.ion was supported by Mr. MALINs and Mr.
Pitrcs.

Mr. CRAWFOF:D replied.
The honso divided, and the numbers were--
lis.r the motion ........................ G 5
Against ................................• 105
105
Maj.)rity ........................... --40
The honso then proceeded to the orders of the day.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION)
BILL.
Oa the motion that this bill be read a second time,
Sir ET. WILLOUGHBY called attention to a prat ice
which had prevailed of applying portions of a vote which
had been given for a particularprpose to a totally dif-
ferent purpose. Ile therefore submitted that Euch an
appropriation should be Made by a distinct vote, so that
the authority cf this houSe over the public money should
he strictly maintained. (Efear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said
when they went into sommittee he would show that the
hon, gentleman hatl very much mistaken the practice