The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-10 00:00:00

to the arguments and accept the conclusions of the great
Liberal leaders, I should be ashamed of my countrymen.
(Hear.) When you consider what is the condition of the
English 'constituencies, nothing can be more preposterous
than the conclusions to which these gentlemen, and espe-
cially the hon. member for Westminster, have arrived. In
a previous discussion I showed that these boroughs have
a constituency- of 2,500. Only conceive what expenditure
must be incurred in paying the rates for all those. I
take it for granted that if the constituent had his rates
paid for him he would look upon it as a personal benefit ;
but he would probably like something more substantial,
and it is absurd to suppose that electioneering agents
could, by paying many thousands of pounds in rates, so
corrupt the constituencies -as to secure their allegiance.
This principle of personal rating is not one which can be
perverted to any groat extent as a menus of corruption.
It can only be part of a very great scheme of corruption.
Long orgauised and extensively organised schemes of cor-
ruption in boroughs seldom succeed, therefore I cannot
believe that these allegations against the purity of our
fellow-citizens and this assumption of infinite and general
corruption on the part of those whom we have been told
were so worthy of the franchise, have any substantial
foundation. I wish to say one word on the condition of
the compound householder. Notwithstanding the cri-
ticism on us, tho result of our labours is that the com-
pound householder will now very generally possess a great
privilege which before he did nut possess, viz., he will
be able to deduct from his landlord the amount of the
rates he will be called upon to pay in order to enjoy the
suffrage. With regard to Sir Win. Clay's Act, I have ex-
pressed my opinion on this measure, and the more I con-
sider it the more I am satisfied that my opinion was not
ill grounded. I believe the hon. member for Holston
(Mr. Brett) was perfectly right in his statement to-night,
and that the hon. member for Birmingham was not sur-
prised at the olsorvations which he made. I will not put
my memory against that of the hon. member (Mr.
Bright), but my opinion is that the third clause of Sir W.
Clay's Act was, interpolated in a manner which was highly
disapproved by persons of authority in this house. So far
from Mr. Spooner being the only person who protested
against the insertion, allow me to recall words which we
both must have heard at that time. Lord John Russell, at
the time the bill passed in am, said of the third clause
that it went beyond the Reform Act. [The right hon.
gentleman quoted Lord John Russell against the adoption
of that third clause as a proof that Mr. Spooner was not
the only member who protested, and then wenton to say]
I am surprised at the language with which the right hon.
gentleman opposite (Mr. Gladstone) :spoke of that Act to-
night, though 1 confess it was expressed with a fervent
violence, of which he is occasionally master. Ho said it
was the opprobrium of our electoral law. [Mr. GLADSTONE
—No, no.] Well, this is litera scripts manet. My memory
not only says that, but the right hon. gentleman repeated
it. And yet it is this Act which the right hon. gentleman
has been pitting against the bill which we are endeavour-
ing to pass. (Cheers.) lam willing to believe that the
Act of Sir William Clay was not annihilated by the lan-
guage of the right hon. gentleman. I only hope that it is
equally untrue the account which reaches me that be
charged those who are sitting on this bench in their con-
duct of this bill with fraud and dissimulation. That is
language which one could hardly expect from any member
of this house. (Government cheers.) It is severe language
for those who are responsible for the conduct of affairs from
the lips of a gentleman who has himself taken a leading
part in public affairs, and who knows what such responsi-
bility is. I understand the hon. gentleman did withdraw
these words on indignation being expressed, but he
added, " There has been an adjustment and provision
framed, with the appearance of giVing an extended free-
chise,while care has been, at the same time, taken that the
apparent extension should not be realised." (Cheery
and counter cheers.) I must confess, for my own part,
I prefer the original invective of the right honourable
gentleman. (Cheers.) The denunciations of Torquemada
to the interpretation of Loyola. I prefer to meet a clear
charge of fraud and dissimulation than to be told in lan-
guage like that I have just read to the house that we have
been guilty of conduct unworthy, in my opinion, of all
public men. (Cheers.) I wish the house now to dispas-
sionately consider the state of parties on this subject. The
right hen. gentleman last year brought iu a bill to improve
the representation of the people. A considerable period
was employed in the discussion of that measure, but after
a time it was withdrawn. This year we have endeavoured,
under circumstances to which I need not again refer, to
the best of our ability, with great care, and under circum-
stances of considerable anxiety, we have endeavoured, if
we could possibly, to bring to a solution this question, and
to-night will decide whether we have failed or not. (Cheers.)
The right hon. gentleman failed last year; and if you de
cide against us to-night we shall, after having made an
arduous and anxious effort, we, too, shall have failed. But
in what position, if this question is brought on, as it must
be, sooner or later, in what position will Parliament stand ?
The section of public men who are the choice of England
will have no policy to guide thorn beyond the policy which
you will have rejected to-night. Because the right hon•
gentleman not only failed lust year, but this year, wise with
experience and with all the maturity of thought which
tion age ataixintietdr.teittT:hvheoilenlhreebotieuovrstibeetietwatiofhtnmeee-ine.
defeat and time secures, brought forward a counter proposi-
o
att u repudiatedconsider,en t s schemecwwoeenrseide askingr
appearatotiodblf itrodherejeee;cottehdre houser
ecaunt and
no counter project. (Ministerial cheers, and e Oh." If
there is a counter project it is one that must be drawn
from the halls of Birmingham—(cheers)—where the hon.
member for Birmingham addresses his constituents
in a manner so peculiar, of which we have been
reminded to-night. We are told that we ought
to repeal all the rating Acts; but a measure of
reform that would deal with those Acts appears to
be a measure which the united influence of both sides of
the House would scarcely succeed in carrying. The prin-
ciples upon which this measure is built are sound, and will
temperately avail, and will have an influence upon future
legislation with regard to rating. No doubt great changeo
will occur in that respect, and they will be carried by the
good sense and feeling which characterises Englishmen-
Circumstances will adapt themselves to the now state of
affairs, and a result will be brought about which in my
opinion will elevate the character of the English psople--
which will teach them a wiser habit of administering their
own affairs, and which will teach them that the perform-
ance of duties is the soundest principle upon which we can
found the enjoyment of rights. I have not alluded to the
failure of those on the opposite side of the House for any
irritable expressions which have been used. I will assume
for the moment that we also may not be successful ; but I
put it to the House well to consider how very critical the
state of affairs must be with regard to this all-important
subject if that happens. On the part of the Government I
wish to express to the House our sense of the candour and
kindness with which our propositions have generally been
considered. (Cheers.) We have always felt that to the
allegiance and sympathy of the majority we had no ground
of appeal, except the common conviction that a sincere
effort successfully to deal with this question ought to be
encouraged and supported, from whatever side of the House
it came. (Hear, hear.) Wo have omitted no legitimate
opportunity of showing how completely we deferred to the
views and feelings of the [House, provided we were not
asked to sacrifice the great principle upon which we
have at all times declared ourselves determined to up'
hold. We have reason to believe, from the course of
these discussions, that the principle is not unacceptable
to the House. There may have been some difficulties
among us as to its application. The views of the bon
member for Oldham, introduced to us with dignity
and self-respect—(hear, hoar)—though they appear utterly
impracticable, with the principles which are the fou nda-
lions of this bill, deserve candid consideration. We have
done as much to meet these views as is consistent with the
main principle of the bill. I deeply regret that the hon•
member has found it consistent with his duty to ask the
opinion of the house upon a question so critical. All I cot
say for the Government is that we have had no other wish
in this business but to bring it to a happy conclusion. Not
for the sake of retaining power, not for the sake of obtain-
ing reputation—(laughter from the Opposition)--because
we were ready at all times to give to the House of Cons"
mons in the conduct of this business the influential posi-
tion which would show to the country that, if the measure
passed, it was the measure of the House of Commons, and
not of the Government. (Cheers.) I commend it at the last
hour to the consideration of the committee, and I still will
hold that, with their aid, her Majesty's Government may
conduct this business to a happy termination. (Cheers.)
Mr. GLADSTONE (who was received with cries of
" Divide" from the Ministerial benches, and cheers from
the Opposition, and who found some difficulty in obtain-
ing a hearing) said he never stated, as the right hon. gen-
tleman said, that the clause was the opprobrium of the bill,
but that the condition of the compound householner Wsg
the opprobrium of the present electoral law. The right
hon. gentlemen said he imputed fraud and dissimulation to
the Government, and, upon being interrupted with an ill"
dignant cry, withdrew those words. During the three
months of the present session ho had never censured the
conduct of the Government with respect to Reform. Nor
had he to-night made such an imputation on the Govern-
ment. The eagerness of four or five members —which the
right hon. gentleman adorns by calling a "cry of indignzr
floe—prevented him from finishing a sentence which
would have shown that he was describing the impression
which would be created elsewhere, not by the conduct o
the Government, but by the conduct of the house if it PT",
sued a certain course. (" Oh, oh," from the Ministerial
side, and cheers from the Opposition.)
At aquartewretroe—l. o'clock the committee divided, when
the numbers
For the Chancellor of the Exchequer's amend-
322
ment
256
Against

Majority for Ministers .............. 66
The result was received with loud and prolonged cheerg
from the Ministerial benches.
The words proposed were then inserted, and the Chair-
man reported progress.
The remaining business was disposed of, and the house'
adjourned at 10 minutes to two o'clock.

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London: Printed and Published by WILLIAM ANDREWS,
I
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE Sing Office, No. 112, t
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the County of
Middlesex.—Friclay, May 10, 1867.