The Sun.
London, England, 1804-06-13 00:00:00

INSOLVENT DEBTORS.

Mr. SHAW said, that when be refieded upon the
number of unfortunate beings whose restoration to
freedom, and the opportunity of procuring subsistence
for themselves and their fainilies, depended on the fate
of the Bill he had thelmour of bringing forward, he
could not doubt of the assent of the HouSe, and the
apprdbaticin of eVeryliberal Man, particularly when it
was understood, as it must appearfrom the 13i11 itself,
that nothing was farther from the intention of the
framers of this measure, than to throw any difficulties
in the way of the creditor's recovery of his demartd,
where such demand was recoverable, or to give even.
the least, protection to the frabdulent Debtor. The
objeCt of the sill was 'to' release 'only those who
were suffering from misfortune, .and who were the
vietims of casualties not to be foreseen or guarded
Against. To' those alone was it his wish to extend
the consideration of the Bill, and many such did he
happento know, who must have inevitably perished
in prison, from want of common food, were they
not kept alive by occasional contribution. The
HOn. Gentleman, after some forcible remark's upon
the impolicy and severity of the la w with respect
to the imprisonment of Debtors, proceeded, to de-
scribe the motives which had generally heretofore
induced the relaxation of that Law, and contended
that these motives were never in any instance so
strong as on the present occasion. This, he con
ceived must appear to every man's mind, when the
peculiar state of the Country was considered, and
when the fat wa.s knoWn, that there are in the
different prisons a eonsiderable'number of Naval and
Military Officers, several,of whom have fought and
bled in the causer`of their Country, and are nom
ready again-to come forward to risk their lives in
its. defence (a Cr; of ".hear, hear !");The Hon.
:Member concluded with moving the second reading
of the Insolvent Debtors' Bill.
Mr. HARVEY Comn E seconded the Motion, and
highly complimented the motives of the Flonotnabc.-
Mover.

Mr. JOHN L ATOUC4E warmly supported the
Motion, conceiving that there never was a moment
which so powerfully called, as the present, for a mea-
sure of this nattire. In favour of the Debtori con-
fined in the Marshalsea of the City of Dublin, the
Honourable Gentleman stated, that previous to the
Insurrection in July last, a proposal was made to
theta to procure their release, provided .they would
join the Rebels ; but this they detlined, preferring
rather to remain in prison and preserve their loyalty,
This he considered sufficient, if any thing additional
were necessary, to interest the Howe in favour of
this Bill.

Mr. ECEJ? profeSsed himself an enemy to the prin.
ciple of Insolvent Bills, but still, from the ,reasons
stated, he would not oppose the second reading
the Bill before the House. He hoped, libwever, that,
in the Committee, special car Would be taken to in.
troduce ,Such ClauSes as would serve to prevent die'
fiatidUlent Debtor from 'a vailing'himSelf.6l its.Pro-
.visions ; and also that no injustice should-be done
to any fair Creditors, particularly the.
with: respect to' their
.Tean'ts, 'as the former were
not.considerettof the ordinary of Creditors.
Mr. SHAW repeated, that his only wish upon the
subject vas to give liberty to the u!ifuttunate, but
fair honest Debtor. .

The Motion was agreed -to, and the Bill was or-
dered to he committee on Thursday, se'uoight.
Mr. jonsToriS, in-the absence of a Nohle Lord,
pos'tpo.ied the notice which stood for Friday, respect.
iog the Dispatches sent out to India, previous to
;sod at the commencement of the War. The Hon.
dentleina4 added, that the Motion would be brought
given.fortv forward on some open day, of which notice would be

Mr. MANNING, in order to enable the House to
form a judgment of the value of the Colonial Trade
to this Country, and of the importance of the -AI ri-
can Trade, upon which it so materially'depended,
mewed that there he laid before the House an Ac-
count of the Imports into this Country from out
West India Colonies, for the last three years, dis.
tinguishing each year.—Ordered.

Attornies' Indeirtnity Bill was reported,

azreel to, and order...ea to be real a third time to;:
morriv.v. _ _ _

SLAVE TRADE.

On the Motion of Mr. Wz LB a FORCE, that the
House should resolve into a Committee upon the Bill
for the Abolition of the Slave Trade,
Mr. MANNING rose, and argued upon the justice
aZ granting an iodemnity to all Persons who might
suffer any loss by the operation of this Bill, and of
the propriety of ing rafting a Clause upon the Bill
itself to provide to this etfeo. Understanding,
however, that such Clause could not be introduced
but by the vote of a previous Committee, by whom
an instruaiora must be direfted to the Committee on
the Bill, he should move, that -the latter should be
postponed until to-morrow, in order that time should
be given for the former.
After scme conversation between the SPEAKER,
MetsatiNo, Mr. FRANCIS, and Mr. WILBER-
FORCE, it appeared, that the objee.t of the required
corrpensteion might be proposed efter a previous
Committee, &c. in. the Report of the Bill, or by
way of Rider in u future stage.
s'eir. FULLER opposed, with considerable ani-
, mation, the Motion for the SrEAKER'S leaving the
Chair. He saw that Dessalines himself, as well as
the Americans, and other Nations, were taking 'up
the Slave Trade, it was therefore quite nugatory to
talk of othet Nations being disinclined to continue
it, if we gave it up. Fie took notice of what had
been said, concerning the crime of witchcraft, which
he described in detail, as being neither more nor
less than the destruftion of persons by a poison,
operating slowly. He alluded to the mode in which
this Country used to transport convVis, which was
a species. of Slave Trade ; and the African States
had precisely the same right of disposing of offend-
ing subjetts. The Trade was not likely to he put
down by any Abolition of ours s it had continued
from age to age. He felt no sort of uneasiness,
after all the coot that bad been held, in taking a
Negro into his plantation, and giving him a Patti.
ciliation of its advantages. Those who were most
vidlent in their outcries against the Slave Trade,
were the haters of the West India Colonies, They
hated them, because they were the means of bring.
ing such a mass of opulence into the Moller Coun-
try. They hated that opulence,. because it tended
to promote the dignity of the Mainarehy, and to up-
bold the Constitution, the Strength, and the Glory
of the Country. The riches we derived from these
invaluable possessions, "assisted us in spreading the
:Navy of England ttitirophent over the main, and,
therefore, it excited the envy of the
Mr. FRANCIS replied to the observations of the
preceding Speaker. He thought the description of
. ,
witchcraft, given by the Hon. Member, was, in f,,a,
murder, and as such, it deserved to be punished.
But he denied the right asserted, that every State
had a right to sell, as Slaves, its offending Sub-
jet s. .I\ro State had a right to punish pereons beyond
the measure and pioportion of the offence committed.
He cited a passage from Mt. Pais ;ce. an author be-
fore alluded to, anti who was, on the whole, to be
considered as hostile to the Abolition of the Slave
Trade. That Gentleman spoke highly of the in-
oocence, and virtues, and happiness, and even of the
civilization of the natives in the interior parts of
Africa ; hitt he observed also, that they thotight
with horror of being taken from their native scenes,
and ptit on shipboard and sent to foreign lands,
where the best that could befal them was to become
Slaves. No man had a right to make another 'happy,
,cyen if he could do so, against his will. He conclud-
ed by expressing his approbation of the Bill,
Mr. Fuotaa explained.
Mr. l';R 00 KE. read the Decree of the French Go-
vernment after the Peace of Amiens, re-enading all
the Laws respeCting the Slave Trade. As to the
statement, that we had. nine tenths of the Slave
Trade, he believed it ; but he would not agree that,
if we abolished the Trade, so "much of it would be
so dune away, particularly when he reflected upon
the readiness of the Americans, the French, and
Spaniards to engage in a traffic that was so produc.
live, and which none of those Powers chewed the
least disposition to abandon.
Mr. ELLIS thought the Gentleman who argued
for the Abolition, would be obliged to go 'foe argu-
inent, to the declaration of the French Assembly,
that " Slavery is inconsistent with natural rights,
and therefore could not exist." He had never met
with one person experienced in the Slave Trade, who
had maintained the policy of the Abolition.—
The present Proprietors of Lands and the WeSt
India Planters had no share in the criminality it
had originated with this Country, and it ought to
rake to itself the blame, and stand tOolieconse-
' quenccs of it ; it was, therefore, merely a British
question. The passing of this Bill held out the
Strongest temptation for contraband trade. It was
exceedingly difficult to' separate the two questions
of Emancipation and Abolition. "'lt 'was' neither
unnatural nor improbable that the Negroes might
take upon themselves an anticipation 'of...thine Oleo-
sures which their ;friends" were suggesting for them
in this Country, utiderthe idea of the Trade- being
unjust. Such a proceeding had been already tug-
bested by the example- of Sr. 'Domingo, arid this
Bill was likely to create the Same"difEculty. Unless
such a Bill was made. an Aid of the •ExecetiVe Go.
vernment, either no good would be derived from it,
or great evil arise. •
Mr. DEVERELL argued strongly against the
Bill, as inconsistent with.the rights and privileges
of the Colonial Assemblies. He quoted Oh this point
the great authority of Blackstone, in a part of his
Commentaries, which explains the nature and extent
of the powers which colonial regolarions were to
possesss. He contended also, that before the Bill
could be entertained, the question of 'prudence owl'
policy shop4.l be impartially and fairly reviewed. A
good deal had been adduced in favour of the Aboli-
tion, from the present situation of the Island of St.
' Domiego,• and the dangers which -would necessarily
result from fresh importations 'of Negroes. The
Colonial Legislatures must, however, in his opinion,
be the best judges of the consequences of Abolition,
and they, it seas not unknown to the House, had al-,
ready declared themselves adwataesto' the measure.
In the Island of Jamaica in particular, the House
bad heard from the -Hon. Gentleman ..4"ho-was the
Agent for 'that Island, that the Colebial' Legislature
there were decidedly adverse to tha. measureof
Aho-
;ition, as, in. their ppinions.o4cA;lat;cl to promot; no

, ,

it
beneficial,eonsequentes while, on the contrary,
might, in the present situation of the West India
Islands, be produaive of eifeas highly disastrous
and deplorable. It was to be kept in view too, at
this moment, that there aaually prevailed a diffe_
rence of a very serious nature betwixt the Governor
and the House of Assembly in Jamaica. So far indeed
was this carried, that he had reason to believe that
the Governor could not again meet,the Assembly,
without a considerable modification of demands, for..
merly enforced. He asked then, whether, after this
declaration on' the part of the Colonies, and with
tlye knowledge that such disagreements as he had
alluded to, did exist, it would be either wise or
prudent to agitate a question which might be preg.
nant with mischief

Mr. SOMERS COCKS said, that all the argu.
merits in favour of the Abolition appeared to him
to be grounded on the principles of humanity. How
far that might be the case, he was at a loss to de.
termine. It was impossible to ascertain the amount
of the loss that might arise to individuals from the
Abolition. It would be attended with many unfor-
tunate circumstances, and, in point of fan; would
produce more evils than already existed. In con-
clusion, he alluded to the condua which a Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. PITT) had pursued
on this question. It might, perhaps, be owing to
his want of knowledge of the world, or to a suffi-
cient acquaintance with the mode in which the busi.
Hess of the House was condu63ed, httt it had fre-
quently occurred to him, that if the Right Ho-,
pourable Gentleman had employed the fair, honour-
able, influence of office, the great objea which he
professed to have had so cordially in view, would
long ere this time have been obtained. He con-
jured the Right Hon. Gentleman, now that 'he had
returned to power, to employ all his fair and honour-
able influence on the present occasion ; and, he
trusted, that from the spirit which had displayed
itself in the House, an end would at length be put
to a traffic which had been so long the disgrace of
this Country and of Human Nature.
Mr. 1141211,4 M thought, that if a proper plea of
compeniatiort could he made out by persons inte.
rested, it would be unjust not to grant it. He was
of opinion, that the Bill ought not to pass wlthOut
consulting the interest of every one concerned. He
might call the attention of the House to the case of
a fe,inor having an estate in the West Indies, six-
teen or seventeen years ago, the value of which
would now be comparatively destroyed by the mea-
sure of Abolition at present under consideration.
Surely this would be a case equally unjust and se-
vere ; but if no compensation was to be afforded,
numerous cases of equal severity and injustice would
take place. He trusted that before the Bill passed,
these circumstances we•uhl he fully attended to.
Sir ROBE/U' BUXTON defended Mr. PITT
against any charge of insincerity in his support of
the Abolition of the Slave Trade. He had made it
his business narrowly to watch the whole of his con-
dud re«peCting it, and he had never witnessed
greater evidence of" the cordiality and zeal of any
individual in a public cause. Because his Colleagues
did not support the same side of the question, that
was no proof of his want of 4eal. The House would
recollect, that formerly this was more a question of
opinion than national policy, and such disagreement
was easily accounted tor. Now it had assumed an
important national interest, and he trusted no time
would be lost in carrying through a measure which
even now he thought, or was at least afraid, might
Come too late for the preservation of our West In-
dia Colonies. _

Mr. DENT said, that it ought to he considered
that there were no less than 7000 Sailors employed
in the African Trade, and betfariXt 3 and 4. millions
of money collected by Taxes on the West India
Trade. saw no degree of humanity in the (flea-
sure', and conceived that the discussion ought not to
proceed further during this Session. He would,
therefore, vote against the Motion, as he thought
it would tend to do injury to all parties concerned,
'• without benefiting the Slaves themselves, If the
plan was to be brought forward fairly, it ought to
be after evidence had been produced at the Bar,
shewing the real situation of the Slaves. 'At such
a late period of the Session he did nut think it pro-
• bable the mat ter could proceed further than formerly.
Mr. WILBERFORCE made a Speech of c'inside-
rable. length, in which he recapitulated, and en.
forced more strongly, all the arguments he had
formerly used, in favour of the Bill, and quoted
several passage from Mr. Parke, the African
Traveller, to show the situation of the Slaves in
that Country.
Sir int. YOUNG rose, not, he said,for the purpose
of going at large into .t discussion on the principle
of the Bill, as on that he should reserve himself for
the third reading, but to refute some assertions which
had fallen in the course of this night's debate, from
the friends of this Bill, and particularly from the
Hon. Member who had introduced it, that were,
he would assert, utterly unfounded. That Hon.
Member had said, that the usual allowance to the
working Slaves in the West Indies, was from four to
seven pints of grain in a week, and that. in some of
the Briti,ll Islands, not more than orte.lialf the por.
(ion was allowed that was given in others ; and that
not more than half the allowance was given by the
Planters on their estates to'their working Negroes,
that Was tiscally allowed to those in Prisons and
Hospitals; 'and that though this allowance was al.
ledged to be given to the Negro in proportion to
the ciu,:antum of land allowed him for cultivation by
his own labour, which, on a great number,f;e'States
was little or none, no man, he said,',..ccoofil.make
such an assertion, who was not utter- ignorant
of the interior management on the West India
Islands. It Wgig gross and unfounded imputation u,lon
his brother Colonists, whom he felt it his duty to
defend. He was himself Ptoprietor of a very conside.
rable estate in the West India Islands ; and after he
had formerly opposed the Bill of the Hon. Member,
he had visited the West India Islands, and made
the tour
.of eight of them, to be convinced from his
own observations what was tlw. real faft; and every
where ' 14: found his attention Challenged by the
comfortable: situation of these Negroes, rlentifully
maintained, who, the Hon. Member and this sup-
porters, had tcpreseored as in a starving situation.
He, declared there way 1.-
not a single, in's'tance threugl
out the whole, where•tlle Ne,gro,wtas not all awed a
spot of ground for OWn ; and so el--
•

tensive and produalve was this spest, in a Mit
many instances, that no allowance was made to the
Negro at all. For except merely the sheep and
cows, fed on the pasture lands which belonged to
the Planters, every other article of consumption on
the Islands was furnished by the Negroes to the
Planters, and paid for by them, such as hogs, poul-
try, esculent vegetables, 4c. ; and so prosperous
were the Negro Plantations, and Negro Trades-
men, in some of the Islands, and particularly in
Tobago, that he believed there was scarcely one
of them at this moment, who had not an 1001.
sterling at his command. It had been said too, that
the Planters discouraged breeding amongst their
Slaves ; and with this view, the importation of
females Wa3 greatly inferior to that of *males. So
far from discouraging breeding, though it was their
interest, they could not effed it ; for even, though
the females were considerably fewer than the
males, yet of this few, some had four wives,
arid many of thosit too Christians; for the wholes
1300 upon his own Estate were all Chris.
tians ; and though very good and devout Christians
in all other respells, theee was an Aristocracy
amongst them, the head men of which could have
their free twife, and their hive !wife. It was an easy
matter for the English Country Gentleman, sitting
by his fire.side, amuse himself with declaiming
against the imaginary cruelty of the gentlemen of
the West India Islands to their Slaves, upon false
and exaggerated accounts; but the West India
Qentlemen did not advert to the many severities
and oppressiOns imposed upon, the labouring poor
throughout England, by the arbitrary hand of the
Country Justices, and the different Parish Officers, of
which so many severe cases came before the CoUrt
of King's Bench, on appeals respeding the Poor
Laws. With respeet to the importation of African
Slaves into the island's, he would be glad to learn
how otherwise the gap was' t'o be filled up in the
population of the Country, which War or the de.
scents of the Enemy's Privateers so frequently
created. He himself had lost a considerable num-
ber of valuable Negroes by the War ; how was he
to replace them hut by importation He did not
hesitate to assert, that the Abolition of the Import
Trade was imeparable from Emancipation : it would
change every fee-simple interest in the West Indies
into a mere life.interest ; that it veould destroy the
whole Value of estates, and 'of dowers and provi-
dons for children entailed upon them ; and he con-
cluded by saying, he never should vote for it, unless
Landed Proprieforsi whose estates were depopulated
by War, or other causes, were permitted in such
case to send Ships to Africa for the porpose of pur-
chasing cultivators : for how was the WO to he
cultivated without hands

Mr. WM. SMITH spoke at some length in depre.
cation of the conduft of the opposers of the Bill,
in disputing it, night after night, and taking up the
time of the House in repeating arguments that had
been an hundred times refuted. From the argu-
ments of Mr. Long, the Historian of Jamaica, him-
self an Enemy to the Abolition of the Trade, and
who had wrote upon this subjeft long before it was
agitated in Parliament, it was acknowledged, that
within the Islands themselves, there was ample
means for discontinuing the Importation of Slaves
from Africa. He was heartily sick of the term
Humanity, so bandied about by those who talked
of the benefits conferred upon the African, by taking
him from his Country, his Kindred, and his dear-
est connexions, to transplant him to a distant
Island, and a better situation, We had no right to
do so against his will, cyan though it werc really
to transfer him to a state of liberty, comfort, and
happiness. How much more impious and unjust
was it then to pretend such a right, for the purpose
of dooming him and his posterity to endless slavery ?
Upon the great and immutable principle of justice
then, this Bill was not to be shaken, and he trusted
the !louse would no longer sanetion the violation of
the precept, " thou shalt not do evil that good may
come of it." The evil, in this case, was positive
and enormous ; the result, as to any good, uttrrly
uncertain, but possibly even much more mischievous
than the evil itself in the first instance.

The question being now loudly called for, the
House divided;
Ayes 79
_ _ 7

Noe 4

Majority for the Committee —59
The House then resolved into a Committe4 on
the Bill, Mr. ALEXANDER in the Chair,
Mr. WlLuEßVOttclt iaIOVC4 to fill up' the blank
for the commencement of its operation, with the
words " first of January, 1805," which was agreed
to. He also moved an Amendment in the words
"provided always that no ship bringing Negro Slaves
from Africa to any of the British West India Islands,
shall be liable to seizure or forfeiture, which shall be
proved not to have taken her departure from any Port
in Great Britain or Leland,before the expiration of 14
days atter the passing of this Bid, or from 'any other
Nit in Europe or Africa, Rrevtous to the Ist of Au,
gust, 1/304," which was agreed to, and the Chair.
man left the Chair, and the Bill was ordered to be
reported to.morrow, when Counsel are to he heard.
Lord TEMPLE wished the Hon. Meinfo(..r who
introduced this Bill would have the goodness to
say, whether he would consent t'o the examination
of some further witnesses on the l'epott of the
Bill ?

Mr. WILBERFORCE answered, certainly not ;
but he would beg leave to refer the Noble Lord, if
he wanted evidence, to the volumes of evidence al.
ready before the House on this subj4o, iu the many
'successive Sessions it had been discussed.
Mr, Ft7t4Ett was for adducing more evidence,
and said, he understood the African Merchants had
a considerable mass of testimony to bring forward.