The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-19 00:00:00

sad the fatal reaction which it will have upon the fortunes other side of the table took up the debate we found it ag-
e this country ? The Government nominees, according to surne a shape of the most animated and acrimonious party
the plan proposed by the Government, cannot be indepen- spirit. We remember the speech of the hen. member for
dent. Far from independence, there is every element of
Enniskillen. We have " seen" the speech to-night of the
dependence provided. (Hear.) We do not even see them
in this house. They are secluded from the constitutional hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire, of which I will
criticism of Parliament. What will be the influence of the only say, whether it excited conviction in the minds of
they
nominees
will have upon the
hat influence upon their superior whic President of the Council ? WhY,h
sinir, I those who heard it I know not, but lam sure it excited
feriors generally exercise. They will have no influence t-
deep envy in the mind of the hon. member for Enniskillen,
unless they pander to his interests—(hoar) —and none will (Laughter and cheers.) No doubt the hon. member for
be commended, none will be looked upon as assiduous end Enniskillen, when next he rises to address the house, will
energetic except those who are his assiduous supporters, , feel that he will have to put forth, not his m ntal, but his
physical exertions, for the purpeoe of .equalling, for he
and those who are active and accomplish the purposes of
the Government. It requires no argument to prove that,
cannot surpass, the exhibition we have seen. (Laughter.)
so far as influence is concerned they will sink into that in- . . .
But the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down has
significant position which is the inevitable let of persons
placed in such circumstances; they will become completely come to the real point of the case. He, throwing aside
the creatures of the Minister, who will be able to rid him- everything connected with the mere abstract question, has
self of them whenever he likes. A plausible Minister stated the question in his opinion as this, that we who sit
could get rid of all the eight Government nominee coun- on this side of the house are not worthy of the confidence
cillors in 24 hours. Let there 'be another cry for adminis- which the Crown and the country have reposed in us, and
trative reform, let there be anotber demand for economical that we are unworthy to continue to exercise that power,
reductions, and I can imagine no Minister more which he says will be augmented by the bill under censi-
popular than a Chancellor of the Exchequer who, in mak- deration. Sir, if that be the opinion of hon. gentlemen
ing his annual statement, should dilate upon the reductions opposite, why do they shrink from putting that question
in the public service, the large amount bayed to the nation, to the house ? (Cheers.) Then, foisooth, the right bon.
and the diminution of expenditure by a patriotic Ministry. gentleman taxis us with our policy in regard to China,
He would enter into all the details, give us aca alogue which he knows received the full and entire approbation
of all the salaries diminished, and the places abolished, and of Parliament and the country. He has also endeavoured
would wind up by saying that he had the greatest settsfac- to frighten the members of this house with a financial bug.
tion in informing the House of Commons that his right bear. He says, it you pass this bill you will have a oorn-
hon. friend the President of the Council of India, wish plate identity between the finances of this country and
that public spirit which had always distinguishecl.him, and the finances of India. Nothing can be more contrary to
that devotion to public business for which be was remark- the real fact than the statement that this bill wile make
able, had found out that the 8 members of the council were no difference between the ripeness of England and those of
of no use whatever, that he could do all the business him- India. On the contrary, it will sender that division more
self, and that B,OJO/. a year might be saved to the public clear and more precise, and will put it more in the power
service. (A. laugh.) Where would be your nominee coun- of Parliament to control the expenditure. The most curie
ciders ? They would have as little influence as a lay lord of ous thing has been the way in which those who have sup-
the Admiralty, who, without dis 'barging a single known ported the motion of the hon. member for Huntingdon
duty, disappears from the scene of active life. (A laugh.) have endeavoured to make that motion square with the
Now, when we get the Minister, we shall have him practi- opposite opinion on which that motion is founded. The
wally a single solitary Minister. I will admit, whoever he greater part of those who have sp. ken on the other side
may be, that he has eminent talents, great experience, and have admitted, and none more strongly than the right
unrivalled energy; but with all these great qualities, what hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire, that
will be his position? With all the demands thet will be it is highly expedient that the Government of India
made upon him, and those will be the greater in proportion should be adiniuistered in the name of the Queen. But,
to the lefilliaecy of his qualities and the energy of his mind says the right hon. gentleman, you should continue the
what will be the position of this pr, sideut of the Indian present systeer, and yet you should have the administration
Council when he has to transact the business of ;5 nations of India carried on in the name of the Queen. Why are
n Hiudostan ? hy, sir, there is no intellect that will not the East India Company to carry on the administration of
sink perplexed and overwhelmed under the burden. And India in the natee of the Queen ? Are they to be converted
what will be the consequence ? Everybody in this house into officers holding office under the Crown ? How is it pos-
must know. He will have to trust eetirely to the Governor- Bible you could have the administration of them in thename
General. It will be impossible for the English Minister to of the Queen ? They possess an Indian Council, of which a
grapple with the details of Indian administration, and what certain number of members are nominees of the Crown, and
then will bo the position of the Governor-General ! You which has no direct communication with the responsible
think you will have obtained Indian reform by this bill ; advisers of the Crown. We propose to abolish the Council,
while, in point of fact, it never touches Indian admiuistra- an r transfer the power to another Council, with the addition
tion on the other side of the ocean. The Governor-General of other nominees of the Crown, and to place the Council in
may be an able and ambitious wan, and may be desirous, as direct personal comiuunication with the responsible advisers
most men are, that his name should be talked of and remew- of the Crowe; but th right hon. gentleman who, in 1853,
bend. He will embark perhaps in conquests or in great said he did not know who was the Indian Government or
works, and take care that his administration is brilliant who was responsible for it, appears to-night at last to have
and famous. Tho expenditure of India will increase every found that out. He says it is the Governor-General. He
year, because the Governor-General will depend upon the says you may do what you like at home, but it is the Go-
almirably conceived and highly gifted labours of the civil vernor-General of India who has the ruling authority ;it is
servants in India, and they will support and assist him he whom you ought to control, and it is in India, therefore,
as long as he supports and assists them, and so long as he that you ought to make your alterations. Sir, that opinion
depends on the revenue raised by the proconsular system is diametrically opposed to the opinion on which the hon.
which they uphold. They will support the Governor- me, her for Huntingdon has founded his amendment, He
Gilmore] so long as he carries out the system of govern- says it is inexpedient to disturb anything relating to Indian
wen. now established in India—a system which may have affairs until the mutiny is over. But eupposs, you were really
been admirably devised and admirably suited to the con- ' to send out a Royal Commission to India to supersede the
dition of India, but which if adopted by this country will Governor-General at a moment when you require all his
soon have such au effect on our finances that I believe it energy and experience, are you to sent a roving commission
will not be a question whether we shall rule India,_ but to inquire into all the proceedings of the Governor-General
whether we shall ruin the country. (Hear, hear.) But is and the officers under him ? I sty that no course could be
that all? May we not have a Minister at borne, who, better calculated than that to defeat your purpose,
though not able to grapple with the details of Indian ad. and to prevent the tranquillisation of India. If it be
ministration, an no one man can, will be an able man, true, as 1 think is admitted by almost all those who have
capable of taking general views, and who will not allow spoken upon this subject with any weight or authority—
the Governor-General to pursue his career without some barring those who, belonging to the Court of Directors,
notice being taken of it in a fine historical despatch such must naturally have great difficulty in arriving at the
as no one could write better than the noble lord the mein- conclusion that a change ought to be effected—that
her for London.? (A laugh.) How will the Governor- great advantage at home and great benefit in India would
General, in such circumstances, manage a suspicious ad- arise from governing that country by the direct authority
ministration in London ? He will place at the disposal of of the Queen, then I say you ought to begin at home, and
the Minister the p .tronage of Indis. (Cheers.) Whenever not commence by any local change in Lelia ; and the rues-
there is one to be rewarded or got rid of in a moment of sure which we propose is well calculated to produce the de-
emergency, in such exigent circums ances the Government sired result with as little derangement and alteration of
will know there is an all-powerful friend who will assist machinery as is consistent with the accomplishment of the
them in the person of the Governor-General of India. object of view. But it is said that the members of the Coune
(Hear.) But when the Governor-Gener.l has favoured all cil will not be independent. lam at a loss to understand
your creatures • when in'hundrede of cases you are placed what they mean when. they use that argument. If they
in difficult and dangerous circumstances, and his power mean that you are to have associated with the President,
and patronage have always been ready to save you, can who is charged with the administration of India, a Council
you call that Governor-General to account ? (Cheers.) who are to thwart him, who are to be antagonistic, who are
Will he not be the possessor of a supremacy of power to overrule his decisions:, and who are not to be responsible
such as I should be sorry to see any English sub- either to Parliament or the country, then I say that is a
ject command? (Hear.) The consequence will be that, sort of council not likely to conduce to harmonious action
instead of a change which would draw nearer the rela- er beneficial results. What would hoe. gedeemen have said
tions between the inhabitants of Hindostan and England, if we had proposed, as they have suggested, to appoint a
you will have slaw that will produce exclusion andestrituge- Council the members of which should be for life? Would
meat upon a great scale. (Hear, hear.) Instead of a law any one of them have acquiesced in a proposal by which
that will allow you to breathe a new spirit into our Indian the Government of the day was to appoint perpetual corm-
administration, and offset wholesome and regenerating cillors, who were to control met overrule those who might
meaoures, you will have an abyss established between this hereater, by a change of political parties, become respon-
metropolis and Calcutta that no men will ever be strong Bible for the administration of India? Responsibility in
enough or bold enough to pass. It is a wise policy to this country can only rest in one quarter, that quarter
`establish the name of the Queen in India,—(hear, hear) being those persons who, by the confidence of the Crown
but if you want to establish the name of the Queen. in anti the choice of Parliament, are for the time being answer-
India,—if you want to transfer thither the autnerity of able for the conduct of public affairs. Moreover, the pro-
the natural functions of the Sovereign,—it is ire India you posed Council must be a council of advice, not a council of
must 49mmence the change. It is in India those changes control. It is said that the persons who may be charged
must be effected that are necessary for the good govern- with the management of affairs 'will choose those who are
meat of India. (Hear, hear.) And you roust at the very most obsequious, and most disposed to yield to the passions
outsetmeet the financial question. You can no longer, and prejudices of the Government of the day. That is not
now that an inevitable connexion is to be established be- the principle upon which any sensible man would select
tween English and Indian finance, allow a blind deficit to his advisers. We must suppose that the Government
be created in India any more than in England. (Cheers.) would wish to be advised by those most competent to give
And by what steps. will you effect this great object? A ' advice, and so far from choosing ae councillors those
council of insignificant men, who may be swept off the most likely to be subservient and flexible, they would no
scene in a moment, will be useless for such a task ; and doubt deem it their duty as well as their interest to select
even the most distinguished men that ever ruled in Eng- those who, by their knowledge, experience, talent, and
land could no more in England deal with the great question capacity wore mist certain to prove useful assistants ie the
of Indian administration than they could deal with the ad- management of Indian affairs. It appears to me that the
ministration in some distant lend with which they had no arrangement which we propose is that which is most con-
connexion. I won't go into those questions that have been I ducive to the end which we have in view, 1 can quite un-
touched on by so many gentlemen. I will not enter into derstand those who say that they are oppose to any
the effect upon our Parliamentary life of the increased cbange. I may hold a different opinion, but I can see a
pat snags that will accrue to the Government ; I will after logical process by which hon. gentlemen might arrive at
all that has been said, confine myself to the financial ques-
:the conclusion that the present system is best, and ought
tion, which has hardly yet been touched upon, but which to be continued. But that which I cannot understand is
is of all questions the most important. Twelve months has that gentlemen who think the present system is not the
not elapsed since you felt yourselves compelled to put an best, and ought not to be continued—who think, on the
end to increased taxation caused by the war, on a consider- contr.r3 , that it is defective in principle, and thatgreat ad-
able scale. (Hear, hoar.) Remember the impatience vantage mast, arise from transferring the government of
with which whon the war was concluded the country India to the Crown— should pronounce that opinion ill
regarded the heavy ameunt of taxation they had Parliament, dooming the Company by their condemnation,
been called to bear. (Hear, hear.) Think what and yet should wish to continue the government so doomed
the present state of our finances is. lam not certain that for an indefinite period, and under circumstances in which
the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not now passing many the administration of In da requires unity of action, vigour
anxious nights in preparing the ways and means for the of execution, and singleness of purpose. (Cheers.) I trust.
present year to meet the wants and necessities of our do- then, that the house will not be led away by any of the
minions in Europe; but when we reflect that the def sophistries we have heard. I trust it will not be daunted
may in a year or two be doubled by the steps you are uow by the phantom which the right hon. gentleman the mein.
taking in regard to India, I beg you to consider what then her for Buckinghamshire has endeavoured to raise of some
will be the effect on the purses of your constituents. How imaginary call upon the public revenue of this country fur
are we to meet the constituencies when we have a deficiency the purposes of Indian service. If it be true that the local
ot a much greater amount than we have ever 'seen in the government has it in its power to increase unnecessarily
times that are past? I entreat the house to consider seri- the expenditure of India—if you have reason to distrust
ously this question of finance. That is the way in which the Governor-General for the time being--why the*
I would read the amendment of ma friend (Mr. Baring), strengthen your home government, give it greater powers
who, I need-not say, so far as I aware, gave notice of of control, and place it in direct contact with Parliament,
that amendment without consultation with any one. It is so as to enable the House of Commons to interfere whenever
nut time toe legislate for India till we have had a much necessary. What conflicting opinions we have heard
more matud plan of legislation before U 9. Ido not place Some gentlemen say there is not sufficient control over the
lay argument. though it might be p aced triumphantly, on local government of India. Well, that control would be
the condition of India itself. I do not place it on other furnished by bringing the responsible advisers of the
grounds that have been stated. I put it on a more soMeh Crown in regard to Indian affairsin directcontact with Par-
footing. I take a lower tone, but one which I find must liameete But then those whore I should have expected to
be urged and pressed on the attention of the house and the be embued with constitutional principles say, " for
country. lam asked to take a step that will involve this heaven's sake let not the House of Commons meddle with
country in pecuniary einbarassments that ar frightful to Indian affairs ; there i+ no tellin to what degree faction lull
contemplate. Till we have cefmplete possession of the res pervert these questions to the public injury." I bow wills
sources of India in India—till we have the means of avail- deference to opinions from the other side of the House as r
ing ourselves of its resources—till we have taken the steps the extent to which faction may be carried. (A laugh.) In•
that are necessary to increase those resources, and place not pros-:me to question the assertions made upon that head;
them in a sound and healthy condition, do not let us take but, in spite of the feats entertained by hon. gentlemen that
a course which is not transferring the government of India an Opposition may from factious motives injr re their county!'
from the Company to the Queen, but is only transferring for the purpose of weakening their opponents, and notwith`
the patronage of the Company to the Government in Down- ate ding, also, what I know to be the play of parliamentarY:
ing-street. I won't say that is their object, but I will say tactics, I feel assured that the good sense of the House Uft
that it can have no other effect. (Hear, hear.) I lament Commons would 'prevent any attempts of that kind, and that
that this question has been brought forward. at this moment. groat benefit would arise to the interests of our 'adieu
(Hear, hear.) lam not surprised that the House of Com- empire from the -vigilant supervision of Parliament. I trust;
inons is at this period of tbe year involved in Indien therefore, that the House will not be led away by either th,.
debates. No one could suppose that we could meet with- eloquence which we have he trd to-night, or the more 80
out out our time and our thoughts being called to this question, argument of the lion. member for Huntingdon. Believelye
that we should meet without inquiring into the causes of , as I do, that the great bulk of the people of this country have
the rebellion, into the conduct of the war, and into the settled the question in their own minds, and have come toee
policy of those Ministers who, with India in the position the deliberate conviction that the present complicated system
in which they tell us it is and has been for years, could of government ought not to continuok—in(hgetahle",
have embarked in a war with Persia and the empire of as I do, that now is the time for change—thath°
China. (Hear.) That we should have inquired into all delay ought to take. place - that you ought not to continue irt
these circumstances I can understand ; but strange indeedar)—be unci
is the different lot which is awaiting us. The proposition opinion and by Parliamentary discussion—l trust that this
action a government at borne which is doomed by public
that we have before us is this—that we are to increase the House will give us leave to bring in a Bill, the general out-
power of those who we believe have exercised initylicioude line of which I have explained, and wilt bestow their n2Ol
the power they possess, and that we are to transfer autho- serious attention upon its provisions, not for the Purpose 0
rity to those who have proved by their conduct that they d (eating a measure which is calculated, as we think, to pro.'
are not worthy f the authority which they elrea ly possess. mote the public good, but for the purpose of passing it in 212
(Cheers.) Sir, I hope the house will hesitate long leder it effective shape. Let that course be adopted, and veto!e
sanctions this innate e. It is possible on ade eate of this to say the change which we propose, should Parliament;
ii!0",!
kind, originating with an independent member, that a wisdom think fit to accomplish it, will dce more for thi..ta,
majority at this stage may be obtained; but I take it for rests of our great ern, ire in the East than
granted that the member for Huntingdon wanted discus- could be suggested..
but Was
sion—that he wanted the public attention to be roused to Mr, NEWDEGATE rose to address the House, ,
the immense stake now at issue, and the: efure very rightly, received with such loud and general cries of "Oh !' and
arid in that sense very wisely, he has lost no opportunity " Divide ?" that, after making a few remarks which yi r°
by which this attention should be attracted. We have totally inaudible, he was obliged to desist.
be
heard over and over again in this house that India never The House then divided upon the question that leave
could commend attention here—that so long as there was given to bring in the Bill, when there appeared—
a debate on India it was impossible to keep a-house, and Ayes 3lB
that it was a subject however great its magnitude and vast Noes .
and varied its details, in which Englishmen would never Majority any other that
—445
take an interest. I think, sir, there is a very simple and The announcement of the numbers was received with loud
satisfactory reason for conduct which I cannot say is much cheers,
to
what our
humilia honour,
ting. and for cEircnglishmen utustaneehavee whicnever h I ownyet had aro somto e- The House adjourned at five minutes past 1 o'clock.
pay for India. (Cheers.) That is the secret why India
has never produced any interest in this house. Ques-
tions ot conquest, questions of annex .ti,-n, and even
questions or rebellion, the greatest rob 'llion that has
ever happened in this empirer4st year hardly commanded
attention because hon. gentdmen, full of confidence
in the Ministry and in their good stars, went out into the
'lobby and said, " Never mind, the Comeany will have to
pay for it." (A laugh.) Sir, I think 'bat delusion is gone
for ever. I don't think, after this bill shall have passed,
that there is one among us who will fail to see that there
is a complete identity between India and Englishmen. 01
all the delusions ever practised in Parliament was that
arrangement of 1853, which afforded the House of Com-
mons an opportunity of hearing an India budget. (A.
laugh.) An Indian Lu ,get detailing the furtunas and pro-
gress of the empire was a subject not likely to c mtribute
touch to the edification of the house, and who could be
surprised that the Minister could not cornrow:ld a house to
listen to the lucid narrative ? (A laugh.) But what I want
to impress on the house is, that those days of Paradise are
over. We may in future misgovern India, bat in futui
we shall have to pay for it. (Hear, hear.) We have been
discussing these affairs for throe or four nights, but what
hon. gentleman has descended from the high Empyrean of
politics to touch on this vulgar point. Depend upon it,
however, it will more and more develope itself until it
acquires colossal proportions, and, if you wish to take a
prudent step and seize the opportunity of examining your
position before incurring fresh responsibilities, I recom-
mend you to wait till you have seen the budget of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer before involving yourself in
the Indian expenditure. (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, there is nothing more curi-
ous sometimes than the progress of a debate. This debate
began by the hon. member forHuntingdon moving a modest
amendment, professing that the question was not one that

zgagm

BIRTHS.
RIDDIILPII On the, 16th inst.' at 8, Chester-place' itie:
gent's-park, the wife of Lieut.-Colonel M. A. BiddulP
Royal Artillery, of a son.
Af
LONITTHER--- On the 16th inst., at Ampthill•park, B•--°fa'
shire, the• Hon. Mrs. W. Lowther, of a son.
.rett•
LOWRY—On the I.t inst., at Vontnor, the wife of
tenant-Colonel Lowry, 47th Regt., of a daughter. ,
ROBINSON—On the 14th inst., at 23, Bronipton-crescent'
the wife of J. C. Robinson, Esq.,of son.

MARRIAGES.
M`SHANE—MORRISsoN—On the 16th inst., at St. P,131;
lebone Church, John Al`Shane, Esq., of Bright°l3',..
Lina Ann, fourth daughter of Robert Morrisson, ssil"
of the Audit Office, Somerset-house.
ThURNALL —HOWES -On tho 16th inst., at Irth,,lil3„':
borough, Northamptonshire' William Thurnall, 0140 t
of Bedford, to Katherine Rawlins, second daughter
Thomas Howes, Esq., of Northampton.

DEATHS.
•
BENNETT—On the 16th inst., at Hastings, the Rev. girl:
Bennett, M.A., evening lecturer at St. Michael!,
aged 53.
BAINBRIDGE—On the 17th inst., at Trinity Cottage, 14
herhithe, Mr. Joseph Bainbridge, late of Linst°°
Cuinbeiland, aged 68.
EDWARDS—On the 17th inst., at 3, Canterbury
Maida-vale, Gilbert J. Edwards, aged 70. 10;00'
FITZROY—On the 16th inst., in Half-moon-stroet,
dilly, Sir Charles Augustus Fitzroy, $ C. 8., oged

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LONDON Printed and Published by MURDO
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of Middlesex, Friday, February 19, 1858.

ought to be traced in any party spirit, that it was simply a
matter of opinion, and that upon that ground ho called for
the decision of the hone J3ut when the gentlemen on the