The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-27 00:00:00

forward at a time when it was utterly impossible to give
to that measure the calm, patient, and lengthened in-
quiry which it required. It had been conceived, as it
appeared by certain members of that assembly with
great deliberation, but it wasexpressed and accompanied
by more than usual infelicity. That being so, in mea-
sured and temperate language, without any allusion to
the authors of the measure in the other assembly, this
house, without a division unanimously, and apparently
even with the assent of its propounders, came to the
determination not to entertain it. That decision haring
been come to a scene took place in the other deliberative
body in which a grave and 1 arned and most eminent
per-on, disappointed apparently at tee measure not hav-
ing been received here, addressed that house in language
which I find thus reported in history. (Laughter.) It is
by examples of the past that we are to correct our con
duct for the future. Lord St. Leonardss, after alluding
to a bill which he had prepared and introduced to
protect honest trustees, in reference to what had passed
in another place, is represented to have said :
" On that occasion, however, the learned organ of the
Government in the House of Commons stated that the
forme measure was
avviapsosso€,
inaccuwhichrate
at e a n(yl's ibUtc7u: snd sn ineeeenete
ed, that it would re-
quire at least three days to make it right. That learned
person then added—with the confidence which belonged to
him—(a laugh)—and by which he was led to imagine that
he could make that clear which was obscure, substitutelight
for darkness, and make that adequate which was inade-
quate, that he himself would undertake to introduce a suit-
able meosnre on the subject in the next session of Parlia-
ment. He certainly was astonished to learn that that
learned person had spoken in those terms of a measure
which had been prepared with such great care and delib :-
ration, and which had passel through their lordships'
house without may great objection."
I .lo not know whether these terms are to be deemed
complimentary or the opposite. (A. laugh.) I rather
believe that they were not used with the intention of
conveying any praise, but rather of personally holding
up a member of the other dwiberative body, who bad
performed what he conceived to be his ditty in this
house, to ridicule aud public observation on the ground
of that speech. No, the individual elludee to unques-
tionably felt e good deal of pity for the irritable feelii g
this prompted these observations —(a laugh) —and
although he might have brought the matter before the
body to which he belonged, yet from consieeratioas of
the past he abstained, and contented himself with ad-
dressing a remonstrance to the members eho heard this
speech, and with expressing an earnest desire that pro-
ceedings ionfgsriusputeuhreabwsettheeee' which were likely to lead to feel-
ings the two bodies, might not be for
the farms persevered in. (Hear.) Now, sir, on another
occasion a grave que-tion arose before that deliberative
assembly touching the most important institu, ion in a
country—viz., the great supreme Court of Appeal. .The
person who has now the honour of atieressieg this great
essernely was called upon by many members of this
house to declare the opinion which he had formed from
hie experience of the way in which that great court bad
discharged the functions committed to it by the consti-
tution and what might be required, if need were, t
render it more eatisfactory in the psrfornsance of those
functions. A great debate ensued in which u:any mem-
bers took part, and which ended with an expression of
the careful!), considered opinion of the body then deli-
berating. These proceedings, being communicated to
the public iu toe or iinary way, attracted the attention
of the members of atenher assembly. These grave and
learned persons to whom I have referred, and to
wheal that body should look up as guides in matters
of order, met together to express an opinion upon
what had been stated in another council of the nation.
This is the language chichi history records to have
been used on that occasion by the very grave and learned
person who fills the highest judicial seat in the courts of
law in this country :
" Lord Campbell had witnessed he must say with indig-
nation, the attack that had been made on their lordships'
judicial jurisdiction by her Majesty's Solicitor-General. It
was a most violent attack, having a direct tendency to bring
their jurisdiction ioto disrepute,and it was astonishing that
it should come from an officer of her Majesty's Government.
It wet an attack upon the constituted authorities of the
country and upon a public functionary— for he (Lord
Campbell) must say that it appeared to him to be au at-
tack on his noble and learned friend on the woolsack who
presided over their lordships' proceedings when sitting as
a court of appeal. It seemed to him, if the report were a
just representation of what fell from the Solicitor-General,
that he thought that justice would never be satisfactorily,
administered in their lordships' house until he (the Solici-
tor-General) was presiding uu the woolsack."
(A. laugh.) Now, sir, if I were speaking of the language
used by John Thomas to James Styles out of doors, I
should pass it by as that species of personality which
ineicated great want of good breeding and good man
ners. (Laughter.) But if this history rays true, and if
these words did proceed from one who was bound to
maintain all order, all gravity, and all decency, why,
undoubtedly, it is a thing to be spoken of with ttie
greatest pain and regret. So far as the iesetution is
noncern.d to which I have referred—these remarks
having been made when the individual had no power to
bring them before the other body, which had adjourned
—that individual was content with the ample revenge
which ho afterwards had, without any act of his, by
these same learned persons appointing a committee to
consider that very institution of which they had con
stituted themselves the champions in these singularly
vulgar terms—(a laugh)—and this committee, by the
eviclencA they took and their own report, said much
wore and more severe things of the institution in
qat•stion than they had attributed to the unfortunate
Solicitor-General. (A. laugh.) T crown the matter, the
individual who used this language came to this very S
and, with ass ii,cin*istency which those
who know hie) better than I ',eve the honour to do tell
me is net an unusual thing—(a laugh)—deplored the
a-ate of this very institution, and begged the assistance
of the person to whom he applied in devising means of
improvement. (Hear.) So much with regard to the
past. With regard to a lat-r occurrence there is also
recorded in history a passage which I wish humbly to
submit is de-ervieg of grave coleideration. It is the pro-
vince of the judges of the land to deceare the law, but to
declare the law in their courts, after argument., upon a
judicial occasioe, and atter grave deliberation. It is most
deeply to be deplored if there should happen to be in
any country a judge:of the greatest eminence and autho-
rity, who must know well that, in a particular juncture
of circumstances, he might be called upon to sit in judg-
ment upon a par icular case, and who yet, with reference
to that case, before it came before him, gratuitously arid
unnecessarily rushed into public, and declared that the
law which governed the CM teat G was so and so, and at all
who held a diffsrent opinion committed cacti grievous
errors that is gave burn the most acute pain to observe
the blunders into which they had fallen. (Hear, and a
laugh.) Well, sir, if there is a man who should have done
such a thing, and if such a man should be clothed with
tee ermine of the highest station, I think this house
would be of opinion with me that he would disqualify
himself from rittnag as a judge to hear and determine
that question, if the case on which he had thus given an
opinion and decision should arise, (Cheers.) There is
nothing liters, to be deplored in the judges of the land
tnan tbst they should be " hacontieent of tongue " I
quite agree that when the Occasion demands the expres-
sion of opinion it oueht to be given with firmness, and I
would not desire to check it in any manner. But I hum-
bly trust this house will agree with me in depleting the
, acid when individuals
authority'rise should be found in this
by opinion-, wh ch render
eetmlha'aisetnei tinneiewdiri hctei to
committpheitt ethnPat h°ttouhledimisC ehlavrdg. e higher, judicial func-
tions. ( dear, bear.) I have another object in trespassing
upon the house. It is very inferior to that to which I
nave alluded, and yet to me it is extremely dear and
extremely imp rtant, and I trust the house will allow me
to speak upon it with great sincerity and without Ease
s
tation. (Hear, hear.) If there is anything that I have
thhe ll
fosse of Commons to give an opinion I effiee, it is that wheu I have been called
felt due to the house during the time that I have had the
huopnonourbtyo
should give it faitafully, conschintieusly, accerding to
the best cf my knowledge, and w.th the sincere belief
that it Is correct and well grounded. Therefore, when
I am charged with having made to the House of Corsi-
mons a statement so err mesons that no man of common
understanding could have made it, it id most important
ttoh,m
house
"th.tthel should be borne with while I bring before
accusations and the answers. (Hear, hear.)
night last during the discussion which took
On
placeEri
onisibe bill then before the house, 1 was called up n,
in a very earnest manner, by my right hon. friend the
member for the University of Oxford to express my
opinion on that measure. I ventured to give that opinion
to the house as clearly and as accurately as I could. I
mist confess that I had a certain 'terror of endeaveuring
using words of d•ubt or ambiguity.
tlot guardisa ye
ry myself
common
b y
practice with lawyers to avoid giv-
ing an opinion upon any
douhttul esteuien. Theysay that
the decision may be on this side or on that, and, in poin,
Now, on all occasions upon which I have been called
of
by fact,tbe
Ht
ihnie :P give no opinion whatever. (Laughter.)
e
of Cemosons to examine a subject wit,'
the view of stating my opinion, 1 have been denseus
whether it i.e a merit or drallatli ou form eiiu lest opinion
I could, and to express it in the clearest and simplest
language. The tenor of my argument on last Friday
nights as has. members will bear me out, was tee,: I
was desirous of showing that an alien stood up nn a dif-
ferent footing freak that of a British-born !subject with
reference to particular eases. I AM seine sure that no
hon. gentleman who did me the favour of attending
to what I said for a single moment supposed that I ever
affirmed the state of the law to be this—that au alien
coming to this country could rob, or murder, or commit
any meecies of violence without thriug amenable to law.
(Hear, hear.) But will the house believe me when I say
that that
particular prepositien having been exttac ed
from the rest of nay speech was put forte. in another place
as representing my arguments upon Friday last. New,
sir, I happened to be in ts particular room in whist' the
following took place. A grave aud learned judge ruse
and said that he was desirous of putting a question to a
noble and learned lord. The person interrogated was
evidently prepared fur the question—(ti laugh)—for
he
role up aid took out of his pocket a newspaper. He
read from that newspaper certain words, which be said
constituted the argument of the Attorney-Gellera) else-
where. (A. laugh.) He then proceeded to denounce that
particular passage, and to represent it as tieing totally
at variance with the law of this country. No:v, the
house will permit me to quote an historical record cf the
words I actually uttered—
The hoe. and learned gentleman was about to quote
from the Times' report. of his speech on Friday night last,
*ben he was interrupted by
Mr. F. SCOTT, wile said—l rise to order, Mr_
Speaker. (Loud cries of " Oh, oh ?") I have always un-
derstood it to be the rule in this house that there should
be no reference to a matter which has occurred in a pre
views debate in the same session. (Cries of " No, no.")
I am perfectly aware that the house may be much more
desirous of hearing the statement of the hon. and leaned
ger:lleumu than anything that I can offer—(loud cheers)
—but there is one observation which I will make—end
I hope that not only thie, but every future House of

Cemmons will concur in it—namely, that there is nothing
of greaser importance than to adhere to the standing
orders.. (Cheers.) It is with the view of baying those
standing orders enforced that I take the liberty of now
rising to order. It the house wish that a matter which
personally affects the hon. and learned gentleman should
he explained, let them give him a specific indulgence to
that extent—(cheers)—bet let not our standing orders
be infringed by any one, and least of all by the course
proposed by the hon. and learned gentleman. (Cheers,
cries of " Chair !" and " Sit down I")
The SPEAKER—In answer to the appeal made to
me I must give my opinion that up to this period the
address of the horn and learned member has not trans.
greased the rules or standing orders of the house. (Hear.)
He is now taking an opportunity of making a personal
explanation, and the house always permits hon. mem.
hers to make such explanations. (Hear, hear.)
Sir R. BETHELL—I am desirous of stating as briefly
as 1 can what was really the argument maintained by me
on the occasion in question. The particular expressions
then used by me were to this effect—
"The state of the English law I believe to be tbie— that
foreigners are able to do in this country that which your
own subjects are unable to do in this country, and that
which would be a crime in natural born British subjects is a,
matter of impunity in foreigners."—Times report, Feb.lo.
An illustration of that was subsequently given by me
in the following words :
" I believe that the state of the law may be thus accu-
rately represented—supposing two or more foreigners in
ibis country conepire together to commit a crime abroad,
although the thing which they conspire to do is a trine,
yet, if it be committed abroad it would not be punishable
by the law of this country; neither is the conspiracy pun-
ishable." —Times report, Feb. 20.
Now, no one who read what I then uttered would think
of disc innecting these two sentences. No one with
ordinary candour or ordinary intelligence would read
the first sentence as containing the proposition, that an
alien may come into this coon. ry and here commit with
impunity acts for which a British-horn subject would be
punishable. But the two propositions show plainly that
an alien may come to this countryand plot with impunity
the commi'sion of an act abroad which a natural born
British subject could not do. Iu that respeci, therefore,
an alien, although standing in the po-ition of owing
allegiance to your law, is by that law exempted freest
consequences to which a natural born British sul.jeet
wouli be liable. Now, what does the house suppose
that I was elsewhere represented to have said on the
occasion ? The pas,age that was read elsewhere was
that first qu :tail by me. A grave and learned speaker
said, I tied in the pni.lic j mynahs the following words
attributed to the Att ,rney-Csoner,l :
"The state of the English law I believe to be this—that
foreigners are able to do in this country that which your
own subjects are unable to do ; and that which would be
a crime in natural born British subjects is a matter of im-
punity in foreigners."
The grave and learned speaker eines on to say :
" That is not the law of England, and it is of the last
importance it should be known to the country that th t is
not the law of England. There is no distinction whatever
between natural born British subjects and aliens with re-
gard to acts committed within the realm of England."—
Times report, Feb. 20.
Non. tee titer learned persons whom he was addrersing
had never read tee speech from which that extract wee
taken. It ea- represented to them that I hell the doc-
trine that an alien might with impunity commit any
crime in Vie country. They w ere as onished at
such a prop ,sition ; whereas it is perfectly clear if the
whole, or even another passage Lad been read, the pro-
position which I maintained was only then that anterior
to the 9th of George IV., according to the common law
of the laud, a British subject, committing a murder
abroad was not amenable to English law, that that state
of things was altered by the statute, but that it was so
worded within its provisions. The result, therefore, was
plain, that an alien not being comprehended within the
statute is not in the same position as a natural born Bri-
tish subject., and I argued that we ought to amend the
law in that respect. There has been, therefore, I mutt
say in that particular, one of the most extensive nipap-
prehensiens and (ot course unintenti .nai) misrepresenta-
tions teat it is impossible fir any one to conceive. T[.o
whole of the address of the grave and learned speaker
dwells simply upon the passage which be read, as coca.
prehendieg the whole of the argument which I addressed
to this house. In the rest of his address the speaker
proceeded to represeet that the doctrine of conspiracy
in this country laid down and recognised in such a
manner by all the writers on the law that it would
comprehend the act of aliens conspiring in this country
to commit a murder abroad, and, accordingly he put it
thus—that the law of conspiracy in this country com-
prehends all persons combining to do anything that is
malum in, se. Now, the way in which I stated the leer
on that subject was this—l stated to the house that
unquestionably there were some general and twee defi-
nitions of this elastic principle of our law as to cells!),
racy, but that they had never been followed out by any
decision and were not illustrated by any precedent or
decided ease ; and, therefore, the words that I used were
that it was tiesafe to rely upon such definitions of that
principle, and that one of the greatest judges in this
country had said that it ought not to be carried any
further than it had been carried. I have had assistance
tendered to me from every quarter on this question.
It, presentations have been made to me by sevt sal of my
learned trien&—by men most competent to speak on the
subject—that they have searched every book and every
denesion relating to the law of conspiracy with a view of
discovering therein the doctrine lanl down by the noble
and learned speaker, at.d fevers 't been ahleto do so. The
I • 11,-n and learned gentleman, who was imperfectly heard
at the conclusion of his speech, went on to eibt,er ve, as we
understood, that the next proceeding of those grave and
learned men in another place was to adve, t to a sentence
pronounced by the assembled judges of Eriglaud in the
case of an unfortunate man who was convicted and
hanged, and it was pointed out that that sentence
might be erroneous, lie thought it uutirtunate that
a learned jndge should commit himself to a state-
ment which ho mightfind most inconvenient when called
on to act in a j omelet pesition. He had felt it big duty
to bring this wetter before the house, teed he believed
that ersat iiiconvsmience and an enormous amount of
disoraer much to be deplored would result if this prac-
tice of members in one assembly criticising individuals
in another were to be continued. In the oneervatioes he
had made his only desire was to set himself right with
the holes; and he tru aed the house would consider uo-
ctiamileeiolflo ra tmh ow
rsneba,,trtaoefatsh
awthht cohu
en: earned m. ahtileeh tram eptnoviairriyeeret(ei
in would uequeetionahly have au unfortunate effect on
the deliberations of both assemblies. He thanked the
house for its kind and patient attention, and ho trusted
he should never again have occasion to make such a
statement. (Cheers.)
Hr. S WARREN said the opinion of the bon. and
learned gentle•nan had bec ime public property having
been made offic!alle, and he (11r. S. Warren) and others
had a rgnt to criticise it, since it bad taken almost
every one who had heard or read it by surprise.
An HON. lIMIDER suggested it was not competent
for the leoue to discuss a proposition of law in reference
to exereeee i by one of its members..
The SPEAKER ruled the hon. and learned gentleman
was in order.
Mr. S. WARREN said he was alarmed at the opinion
the hon. and learned member for Aylesbury had ex-
pressed, and was about to read an extract from the hon.
and learned gentleman's speech, which, however, was
ruled out of order, and the hon. and learned gentle-
atm (Mr. Warren) desisted, but he could not help
saying it would have been as well if the hon. and learned
gentleman the member for Aylesbury had confined
himself tie exolaiaing, and not attribute to the Lord
Chief Justice that he had garbled the extracts he had
quoted from the speech to suit his own purpose.
Mr. WHITESIDE defended the course adopted by
the Lord Chief Justice, and the opinion he had ex-
pressed on the Law of Conspiracy.
The motion for adjeurnment was then agreed to.
SITTINGS OF COMMITTEES.
On the motion of Sir J. GllallaM, leave was given
for the committee of the house to sit during the ad-
journment of the house.
THE PASSPORT SYSTEM.
Mr. MILN ES gave notice that he should, on this day
fortnight, bring under the notice of the house the pre-
sent passport regulatM ion.
YN (HOOTEI ear, hear.)
A.
Mr. SPOONER gave notice that shortly after the
Easter recess he should move for the introduction of
a bill for the withdrawal of the endowment of May-
nooth. (Loud cheere.)
EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.
After a short conversation the iarther consideration
of this bill wag postponed on the opposition of the hon.
!Bombe, for Devonport (Sir E. Perry), on the ground
that the house had had no time to discuss the principle
of the bill, an i the risk involved ,of throwing a great
responsibility on the finances of this country. It was
adjourned till Monday to ascertain the views of the pre-
sent G.,vrr'racnt tit :con
The other orders were disposed of, and the lame ad-
journed at 6 o'clock.

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