The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-09 00:00:00

1858,

he certainly had thought, on seeing the Mille of the
bill, that we were about to legislate for the French
island in the South Pacific. ile hoped that there
would be no confusion about the matter, such as that
which was said to have existed once, when a governor
who had been sent out to a colony came home again and
said he could not find it ? (A. laugh.)
Mr. WILD begged to remind the right hon. baronet
that this great question required his immediate atten-
tion. Not only would there be emigration to these
colonies from California, but it would flow in from
Canada, as these territories were only 47 days overland
from dontreal. That emigration could not take that
route without interfering with the territory of the Hud-
son's Bay Company. The hon. member for Sheffield bad
talked of employing a large military force in these colo-
nies, but he would recall to his recollection what had
happened in New South Wales when it was found im-
possible to keep troops there on account of the desertion
of the men. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Labou-
chere) had complained of the designation of the colony,
but if he referred to Cox's Tour to the Rocky Moun-
tains, in 1831, it would be found that that territory was
called New Caledonia. He congratulated the right hon.
baronet on this good commencement of his Colonial ad-
ministration, and he would at the same time point out
the desirability of making an alteration in the existing
boundary, which had been found to be an inconvenient
one.

Mr. ELLTCE thought the bill well calculated to carry
out the objects which the Colonial Secretary had in
view. He begged the house, however, not to be led
away by any notion of the facilities for colonising those
territories. There were difficulties connected with it
which did not exist in the cases of California and Aus-

tralia. In the first place not a spade had been struck
into the soil on the Frazer River. Toe country Was
difficult of access ; it contained no provisions, and as
the gold mines were situated at the confluence of the
Frazer and Thompson Rivers they were 350 miles from
the coast, and the emigrant population would have not
only to find the means of transit, but must carry pro-
visions with them for their support by the way.
This country was different from the other gold coun-
tries. California was a settled country, rich in corn
and other provisions; and in Australia our colonists
had prepared the way for emigrant. He agreed
with the hon. member for Sheffield, that you ought not
to establish these colonies without adequate means for
protecting the settlers. You must administer justice.
You could not expect that there would be no crime, and
how could justice be administered without the executive
being such a force as was necessary for that purpose l
Those ware questions of difficulty and importance, and
he hoped the house would not be led away by the notion
that we were about to establish a colony at the mouth
of the Frazer River which could at once support itself.
The plan of the right hon, baronet was the best that
could be adopted at present. He believed the man most
fitted to carry it out was Governor Douglas. With re-
gard to the native Indians in Vancouver's Island and
the adjacent coast, they were numerous and tolerably
well armed,• and they had attacked trading ships on
several occasions. Governor Douglas by his good
management had, however, maintained his colony with-
out any quarrel or dispute with them. But there could
be no such management in the interior when the emi-
grants first went to the gold regions, and it was neces-
sary to make some provision in that respect. He argued
that the matter ci7uld be left in no better hands than

those of Governor Douglas. The hon. member for
Sheffield had given good advice when he said, that what-
ever instructions you gave the governor they ought to
be accompanied by laws and ordinances, which would
enable him to carry out his government in the first in-
stance. The governor ought to be instructed on what
terms his proclamation should be issued, and what pro-
tection he should hold out to persons going into the in-
terior. It was expedient that the Government should in
all these matters give the most specific details to the
governor. (Hear) Whatever policy might be adopted
with respect to the Hudson's Bay Company, he could
assure the house that no obstacle would be raised by that
company to a fair add just settlement. So far from
setting up any extreme rights, the directors would be
happy, for the sake of the interests of the shareholders, to
render their best assistance to the Government and the
public in carrying into effect that which would be most
for the general benefit. The company desired to be

treated fairly, as the East India Company had been
treated, and could not be expected to surrender their
rights without some indemnity. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CHRISTY congratulated the right hon, baronet
on the introduction of a bill which was tne first step to-
wards putting an end to a large slice of the monopoly
enjoyed by the Hudson's Bay Company. This commit-
tee was the subject of discussion ten years ago, when he
called the attention of the house to the inexpediency of
giving over an island of such importance to the com-
pany. During the last session a committee was ap-
pointed to consider the whole question preparatory to
the granting, as he had feared, the exe,',usive right of
trading over such a vast extent of country, but be sup-
posed the bill would have the effect ftf settling that mat-
ter, and he thought there could not be a more conclusive
argument against the iinpolicy of granting such a too-
nopoly, than the necessity which had arieen for pl,icing
the government of the island under the direction of the
Crown. (Hear, hear.) Although Governor 'Douglas
might be skilful in managing the Indians, it aliould not
be forgotten that he was the factor of the company, and
instead of governing with a view to induce emigrants to
go to the island, the government appeared to be exer-
cised in a mahner which drove emigrants away. Ile
thought it most important that the question respecting
the Hudson's Bay Company should be ,ully discussed
during the present session, in order that the fteling of
the house and the Government might be ascertained
with respect to the renewal of the charter. (Elmer.) He
approved of the bill as a whole? but entertained some
0uj..,..u5.. L. Luc geugrapuseam urrangemeeb propuseu,
arid intem'ed at a future stage of the measure to suggest
a somewhat different boundary from that proposed by
the right hon. baronet. He was far from thinking it
would not he politic to confine the operations of the
Hudson's Bey Company to the tune northern districts,
which might be allowed to remain under their govern-
ment with less disadvantage to settlers, but as that peas-
tion would be discussed hereafter, he would not further
revert to it. He could not help remarking that it was
rather curious that when the committee were sitting
last year no information was given them resreectin,,,e the
discovery of gold, although it appeared fmin the docu-
' meats on the table that the discovery had been made
two years ago. (Hear.) _

Lord SA.NDON said that when the, license was granted
to the Hudson's Bay Company, t'ae Govermmeut fixed
the price of land at li. per eery. It appeared from the
evidence adduced before the committee that that high
price had prevented coloniKation from being carried on
to any great extent, and .he wished to suggest that in
making the proposed. change the Government should
consider what the most inviting price of land should be.
(Hear.)

Mr. LOr;VE thought the present the proper time for
the jut—due—a:. •••.: "f this riss,-;reiree brit
we.a not at all sanguine as to the success or tee eeroal,
because it seemed to him that the first thing that must
happen would be some terrible collision between the
whites and the Indians, which it would not be in the
power of any one to prevent. The sending out of a
frigate would not be sufficient, and it would be neces-
sary to have on the spot a force capable of maintaining
order. (Hear.) He trusted that the right hon. baronet
would take into consideration the suggestion which had
been thrown out respecting the price of land. If the
island was not intended to become the residence of a
barbarous population, means must be taken to fix the
land at such a price as it could be obtained for in the
neighbouring countries. (Hear.) The bill proposed
that her Majesty should be empowered by order in
council to make laws for the colony, or delegate the
power to the governor. Now he would suggest to the
right hon. baronet the propriety of following the prece-
dent which had been adopted with respect to other
colonies, by inserting in the act a clause providing that
so much of the laws of
•England as could be applied to
the colony should be enforced, and that the Government
should he left to supplement those laws. (Hear.) He
thought it would by much better for the law to go to the
colony direct from Parliament. With regard -to the
tame of the new colony he thought it somewhat objec-
tionable. When there was a district near Melbourne
called Caledonia, and one on the eastern coast of New
Holland called New Caledonia, he regretted that the
right hon. gentleman should have adopted a name also
borne by a French island in the Pacific.
Mr. J. WHITE thought the objections which had
been urged with respect to the name of the colony ought
to induce the Government to adopt a better and more
appropriate one. Why nut follow the course which in
many cases had been pursued by the United States, and
fix upon some ahotigioal name (Hear, hear.) He wished
to urge on the Government moat earnestly the expe-
diency of fixing the land tenure on a reasonable basis,
and adopting the system laid down by the United States,
which gave to the settlers the right of pre-emption. He
was surprised that the right hon. baronet had not made
more mention of Vaucouver's Island, the importance of
which could not be exaggerated. He had heard Ameri-
cans declare that they would be content to give Califor-
nia for that island. Now, looking to the future, and the
domination which the Americans must exercise over
China and Japan, he was not surprised that they at-
tached so much importance to Vancouver's Island; and
if he thought the foundation of the new colony would be
productive of a quarrel between the two countries, he
should almost be inclined to accede to the proposition
which the Americans were ready to make—namely, the
offer of a large sum for that island. (No, no.) He thought
the colony ought to be made as much as possible a self-
sustaining colony, and trusted that the expenditure
would be established on such a scale that the colonists
would have no difficulty in paying it. (Hear.) In con•
elusion, he would suggest that if no proper aboriginal
name could be found for the new coloey it should be
called Buleer Lytton.
Mr. CROSSLEY, as au instance of the inconvenience
arising from different places bearing the same name,
stated that a letter, containing a large number of bank
notes, posted at Plymouth, and directed to " 'Messrs.
Crossley, Halifax," bearing no postage stamp, was for-
warded to Nova Scotia, and then• sent back to this
country, marked " try Halifax, England." (Laughter.)
He trusted that some more distinctive name would be
fixed upon for the new colony. (Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to the price of the land, he thought it most unwise
to fix the price at 11. per' acre, when excellent land in
the United States, sunning close up to railways, could
be bought at a dollar and a quarter per acre.
Mr.,C, W. FITZ WILLIANI said it was the practice of
the Hudson's Bay Company, when a person began to
trade in the natural products of the country, to outbid
him. He thought that some survey of the country ought
to be made —not Such as was made for England, but
such a survey as was required for practical purposes. As
regarded'the proper person fo: governor, the right hon.
member for Coventry had endeavoured to impress upon
the Secretary for the Colonies the value of Mr. Douglas's
services aelt govertior. • Mr. Douglas might be the best

governor that ever was created, but at present he was
totally unfitted: He was the agent of the Hudson's Bay
Company, and endeavoured to put down everybody who
attempted to trade. Fcr his own part, knowing some-
thing of Mr. Douglas, he should say he was a very in-
competent man to be a governor. Mr. Douglas had
never had to deal with white men, but always bad
deal with the Indians, and his idea was that
the law of might was the law of right. The sort of men
who had come to this colony were those who had left
the States because they were too hot to hold them.
They required gentle treatment, and it would not do to
rub their hair the wrong way.
The bill was then read a second time and ordered to
be committed on Monday.
POLICE FORCE (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord NAAS moved the second reading of this bill.
He briefly explained some of the details of the measure,
respecting which he observed many misstatements had
obtained currency in Dublin. Themeasure was intended
to amalgamate the civic police and county constabulary
throughout Ireland. It would accomplish considerable
economy in the local expenditure, and bad been received
with general approbation in every Irish town and city
with the'solitary exception of Dublin.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN opposed the bill, and moved as an
amendment that the second reading should be deferred
for three months. It was, he declared, an essentially
Orange arrangement, and in Ireland would Ise carried
out in that sense-

On a divisian there appeared—
For the second reading...,
For the amendment

Majoril

The discussion was, however, renewed on the quebti )n
that the bill should be ordered to be committed. Mr.
Cogan, Mr. Bowyer, Mr. P. O'Brien, Mr. Grogan, Mr.
J. 0. Fitzgerald, Mr. Whiteside, and Sergeant Deasy
having addressed the house,
Mr. MAGUIRE moved the adjournment of the de-
bate.

After further discussion, carried to some length, and
in which many personalities were infused, this motion
was agreed to without a division, and the debate stood
adjourned.

The Sale and Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill was con-
sidered and amended in the committee, and ordered to
stand for third reading this day.
The Titles of Land (Scotland) Bill, and the Lunatics
(Scotland) Bill were read a third time.
On the amendments to the Medical Practitioners Bill
being considered.
Mr. HADFIELD moved the following addition to
clause 45, " And shall be free from all stamp duty, in
case the existing stamp duty shall have been already
paid on the diplema, and by such physician from the
College of Physicians to which he belongs."
Mr. G. HAMILTON opposed the amendment, upon
which the house divided, when the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it 4O
Majority —24
The amendments were then agreed to, and the third
reading fixed for this day.
Mr. ALCOCK obtained leave to bring in a bill for
the voluntary commutation of church rates.
General PEEL obtained leave to bring in a bill to
suspend the making of lists and the ballots for the
militia of the United Kingdom, and also for a select
committee to propose estimates of the charge of the
disembodied militia of Great Britain and Ireland.

Lord NAAS obtained leave to bring in a bill to
amend the law relating to rateable property.
Mr. COLLINS obtained leave to bring in a bill to
enable the Speaker, during the prorogation and ad-
journment of Parliament, to issue a new writ in cases
of vacancies.

Mr. HENLEY obtained leave to bring in a bill to
amend the laws relating to cheap trains, and to re-
strain the exercise of certain powers by canal and
railway companies.
The house then adjourned at two o'clock.