The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-13 00:00:00

done of England afforded any guarantee for the just govern-
went of India. As far as he understood, the Council of
Eight, who were to assist the Indian Minister, were
simply to have the power of recording their dissent. That,
however,before
would Parliament,
no be
done in
much
less a mannerwo would
thatci they have wouldae t h
b:
brought
check upon him which was at present supplied by the pre-
sence in that house of directors of the East India Company,
who could state their views, in opposition to those of the
President of the Board of Control. Of such a council he
could not think that any man conversant with India, much
less any director of the East India Company, would consent
to become a member. Upon the future distribution of pa-
tronage under this measure, he confessed he could not but
look with alarm, for it was, he thought, clear that when
the President and his councillors all sat in one room, and
were in constant communication, its distribution would be
arranged in accordance with the convenience of the Minis-
ter of tho day. They had seen the fate of colonies which
came in contact with the patty struggles in that house. He
recollected the disaffections in Canada and Ceylon. In both
cases great injustice was committed, and the interests of
the parties concerned were continually subordinated to the
interests of parties in that house. By parliamentary dis-
cussion they brought about an almost total dissolution of
that government of Ceylon which is now so highly lauded.
Ho confessed this seemed to him an awful peril to which we
are now about to expose the destiny of 150 millions of peo-
ple. No reason had been assigned by the noble lord through.
out his speech forth° choice of this particular time for the
introduction of this measure. Could it be the East India
Company were unpopular with the people, and that it was
thought that it would be advantageous to the Government
to abolish that body ? He did not, however, believe that
the people of England did feel any hostility to the East
India Company. The Government of India had been the
government of India by the middle classes. It had been free
from party spirit, and was the only government in the
world under which it is admitted that in the distribution
of patronage no preference was given except to merit. He
did not think that that patronage would in future be dis-
tributed with the freedom from favouritism which had
hitherto been the case. For his own part he had not the
same faith as some of his hon. friends in the competitive
system, which it was said was to furnish a safeguard against
all abuses. The best boys did not always turn out the best
men; and at this moment, when the servants of the Emit
India Company, both civil and military, had shown them-
selves men of whom we could not but be proud—when the
achievements in India had obliterated the remembrance
of the failares in the Government war in the Crimea—at
this moment to say to such men as those to whom he had
referred, that the Government they were administering
was an unworthy Government, did seem to him most un-
grateful conduct on the part of a great nation.
Mr. W. VANSITTART could not believe that the
House of Commons would refuse to grant the reasonable
prayer of the East India Company, and appoint a com-
mittee to inquire into the conduct and constitution of the
government. He trusted, too, that Wort any alteration
was Laude ia the existieg government fall inquiry would
be made into the cause of the present mutiny, as he con-
ceived that it would be found that great blame would be
attached to the Government at home for having kept the
Company so short of European troops. The hon. member
proceeded to refer to the paucity of troops at the time of
the mutiny, and the total absence of troops at most of the
principal oities in the Bengal Presidency. Before the an-
nexation of Oude there were three regiments of Europeans
more than there were after the annexation of that country,
while in Oude itself, with 216 strongly fortified forts, there
was but one regiment of European troops. It was the most
impolitic thing to! pursue this system of annexation with-
out a corfesponding increase of military force to maintain
the provinces so annexed in a state of proper organisation.
Theehon. member paid an eloquent and merited eulogy to
the bravery and valour of the small detachments of
European troops who had done so much to pat
down the present mutiny. He could not help think-
lug that the present system of the doable government
might be simplified, but felt, at the same time, that
the system had its advantages, not the least of which
was the salutary check nponanienorant President of the
Board of Control. (Hear.) The present was, in his opit
nion, a most unsuitable time for effecting changes in the
Government of India, and believing that such alterations
would at the present time be attended with risk aed
danger to that empire, he felt bound to oppose the intro-
duction of the bill. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. AYRTON said that many years ago, having gone
to India prejudiced in favour of the East India Company,
he had nevertheless, after a residence there of some time,
coma to the conviction that government, in the name of
the company, was not only a proceeding highly inexpe-
dient but a thing almost impossible to be continued. Dur-
ing the last session of Parliament, upon the first oppor-
tunity ho could obtain, and before the events which they
now deplored had broken out, he took occasion to trey that
the substitution of the Government of the Crown for that
of the East India Company was absolutely necessary for
the maintenance of the loyalty of the natives of India. He
regarded the continuance of the government of the Coin-
pany as inootnpatible with the least knowledge of political
ideas on the part of the natives of India. It was impos-
sible to conceive anything so degrading, so dishonourable
to a people as to be turned over to the remnant of a joint.
stock company to be managed. He admitted that it was
no longer a trading company, hat still it was the remnant
of one. He was gin i to find the hand of ne director was
attached to the petition which they had pros )nted, and
I that it came to the house like so many acts of the Com-
pany, under the common seal, without any personal
voucher of individual responsibility. That petition had
shadowed forth to the people of this country a fact which,
if it were accepted, would be so strong in favour of the
Company, but which was so at variance with the truth that
he thought it would be an injustice to the question if the
representations of the Court of Directors, or rather the East
India Company, were allowed to go forth without some re-
mark. The Company had presumed to say that they had
acquired the government of India and their power for India
entirely by their own means, without any assistance what-
ever from the British Crown, without any assistance
from the people of this country. But how could they
make such an assertion when the three presidencies had
been acquired by them, or rather held by them, as re-
garded two of them, namely, Ma iras and Bombay, by a
grant from the Crown, and as to the other, namely, Cal-
cutta, by the joint action of their own and her Majesty's
troop,. Such were the foundations of their territorial
possession.. Ho could not forget that, in 1353, when
they wore told an end must be pat to this anomalous
state of things, the Government of India was insol-
vent, and that it was maintained by the profits they
received from the monopoly which they enjoyed at the ex-
pense of the people of this country. In order to alarm the
Government of that day they stated that the value of that
monopoly, from the year 1813 to 1833, was an aggregate
sum of 23 millions, which had been applied by them in aid
of their government. But how eras that money obtained ?
That sum was provided, as Mr. Grant stated, by the people
of this country as fully and completely as if, year by year,
it had been voted by Parliament. It was obtained.. by a
monopoly which raised the price of a commodity (a neces-
sary of life) at the expense of every individual in this
country. Did it then become the East India Company to
a;
I n the
face by th
say that this country had coat lbuted nothing to the
eof
these
ee English
footsglish
ad-
vancement of India ? Was it nothing that the blockade
between France andthisffo r t
s countryee
extending was
envy and English valour, and that thus the French were
fnromh getting
had the arrogance to tell the people of this
tphreev eeonmtepda
y .India
to
Indiaws maintained
country, or rather the Parliament, that while under the
losoinuf dominions
America,
theylp e br Imperial
a
in the East. Did it become the Company to inquire whet
was the cause of oar losing America? Did not the Cone-
ml
their Government unaded e
Com-
pany go to the Government and say that they wore
insolvent, and asked, as a means of extricating them-
selves from this position, that they might be allowed
to send their tea to America, for it was their tea,
aid the destruction of it, which first produced the
American war ; and it did not become the East India
Company, therefore, to take credit to themselves for
the maintenance of empire in India, while, at the
same time, America Was. being lost to this country. It has
been said also that they had done great things in develop-
ing our trade in India. Why, whatever had bean done in
India within the present century had been done in spite of
the Company and against their most violent remonstrances.
No, lot the Court of Directors still inquire into the pest—
; let thorn rely as their safest government upon the present.
He for one thought it was much to bo regretted that former
governments had not felt themselves strong enough to face
the powerfal influence of the Company ; he was glad, how-
-1
over, to find that year by year the Court of Directors hart
been falling so lo ,v in public opinion that the Government
were now able, in a comprehensive manner, to deal with an
anomaly which had been a deign:lee to the country from the
first hour of its existence. But it was alleged the present
was not the time for establishing the proposed change in
the form of government of India. His opinion, on the con-
trary, was that every hour in which the change was poet-
poeed was pregnant with the greatest misfortunes to the
empire. So far from the insurrection being a cause for de-
lay, it was precisely a cause why the Government of the
country should be made more efficient in its action. It was
precisely now that the deficiencies of the existing system
were most felt. Thegreatest value would be attached to the
transference of authority from the Court of Directors to
the Crown. The prinaes of India would hereafter feel
themselves treated with dignity, and he could say himself
that in India the greatest weight was attached to even the
shadow of things. Why, anti yes regarded the right of ap-
peal
peal to the Queen in Council as -a great political right.
ludeed, as was observed by the noble lord, the very inti-
mation that the intermediate authority of the company
had ceased to exist, would be tantamount to an army of
Europeans in the heart of the country ; that was to say,
supposing the change was carried out with sagacity and
intelligence. But, undoubtedly, if any attempt was made
to undervalue the change by those who would bo inclined
to act upon the ancient traditions of the Company, the
proposal of the Government would not end in much. With
reference to the future administration of the patronage of
India, he must say he did not think the Court of Directors
were entitled to any high consideration upon that ques-
tion. Notwithstanding the immense amount of patronage
at their disposal, the Court of Directors, acting as a body,
had never appropriated a single cadetship for public
purposes. He would not canvass the subject of the purity
of Indian appointments, He hoped that the market price
of the Company's appointments was no longer known in
the City of London, and that they wore now purely given.
But he knew enough of past transactions, he had seen
enough of the banking accounts of East In iia directors, to
be able to say that they had better not challenge too strict
an inquiry into the past. Then he could not conceive any-
thing more absurd than the present system of government.
They had the right hon. gentleman the President of the
Board of Control at the head of the Government ; and
they had a body of gentlemen sitting in Leaclenhalloitreet.
The right hon. gentleman was regarded as responsible for
what was done, but he had not by law the power of com-
municating with these gentlemen. What was the object
of a council except that he who was responsible should be
at liberty to canvass the opinion of every individual in the
council ? But all that the sight hon. gentleman could get
by law from the India Hoes° was a resolution of a court
of directors distilled to him through the medium of the
chairmar. The chairmen might himself be personally op-
preel to the opinions which he had to express, and might
hare to argue in favour of a resolution of the court in
opposition to his own opiaiens. He beloved that such a
thing lied actually occurred. What could they think of a
system in which a conned was required to assist in the
edinieis`r Aion which had no communication with the
rr seonsi tee Minister, ant which was so managed that there
aiiil•l I, eo eeeneibili re rin any individual director, and
so that the its ill only of their deliberations was known,
and that result perhaps arrived at only by a majority of
one ! He did not tidal so highly of the perfection of
human nature as to believe in the official capacity of
any man who acted in a crowd, whoacted behind a screen,
And who could never be responsible. Could the house
hesitate to support the Government in putting an end
to such a system ? He was glad to find that year by
year the Court of Directors bad fallen in public
of inion, and ha 1 now fallen so low that the Govern-
ment had at last determined to put an end to the
anomaly, no noble lord ha 1. rightly regarded tat they

ought to be put down for ever. But the Court of Directors
had sounded the alarm, and had said that the present was
not the time for a change. But he said that now was the
proper time, and that every hour of delay was pregnant
with misfortune to the empire. So long as what had bean
called the mutiny, but what he called the insurrection,
continued, the very cause existed why they should put an
end to the present system at once. The Minister oti,oht to
be able to take daily and hourly counsel on this grave sub-
ject. Then he fully agreed with those who said that it would
have a great influence on the natives to have the govern-
ment directly ender the Crown. The native princes would
feel exalted when they had the dignity of making treaties,
not with a joint-stock company, but with the Sovereign of
England. He knew, for example, that natives looked to
an appeal to the Queen in Council, not as a mere trial of a
legal question in a court of justice, but rather as a proceed-
ing which brought them directly under the surveillance of
the Crown. Again, lately they had seen a prince come over
to this country and offer his little girl to the Queen to be
made a Christian, as the greatest offering he could make to
his Sovereign. The declaration that this intermediate
power—the Company—which stood between the natives of
India and the Crown, had ceased to exist would be received
with delight in that country. He had intended to ion at-
tention to a document put into the hands of members in
conjunction with the petition, but would not do so now,
because it would not be convenient to enter into details.
He would be prepared to discuss any question of detail,
and to show that the men who could write such a docu-
ment, whatever might be their ability, were not fit to be
entrusted with the administration of the government of
India unless they were brought under the direct moral i eau-
once of the people and Parliament of this country. The ryots
of India were assessed to the last farthing. (Oh.) Well,
of course he did not mean to say their last farthing liter-
ally : but, having left the cultivator just enough for main-
tenance, everything else was taken from him which con-
stituted property in this kingdom. The Punjaub was
taxed only to the extent of one-fifth, but what was the
measure of taxation upon the rest of India ? Why, he be-
lieved in some parts of India it was as much as two-fifths,
whilst in others it was even as much as three-fifths of the
gross receipts of the land. And the consequence of the
low taxation of the Punjaub was no doubt its tranquillity.
The expense of the government of the Punjaub exceeded
its revenue, and nearly all the expenditure was defrayed
out of the revenues of the rest of India. He asserted the
cultivators of the soil had been in some instances reduced
to the most dreadful suffering and distress. He had been
informed that they had been even reduced to eat the soil
which they tilled, from starvation. (Laughter.) He did
not mean to say this was a normal state of existence, bat he
believed very great suffering had occurred, and that many
of the people of India had died of famine. He could not
give the bill his unqualified adherence in all its details, but
suipported the general principles of the measure. He would,
for instance, be sorry to accept the arrangement made for
the patronage of India. He must, yLa die not think the
Court of Directors entitled to any great consideration ;
for though they had at their disposal some 400 cadetships
yearly—(no, no)—yes, but such had. certainly been the
case in former years, sometimes more than 400, sometimes
less; yet in the distribution of that patronage they had
never, as a body, appropriated a single cadetship in the
discharge of a public duty, or on the ground of public ser-
vice. (Oh, oh, and hear.) Yes, he re-asserted his former
observation and defied contradiction, speaking of the di
rectors as a public body. It was well known how the
widows of officers who had died in the service canvassed
directors from house to house, and were not always suc-
cessful oven in seeing the great man, far less so in the ob-
ject of their solicitation. He wished, instead of tho bill
gividg patronage to the Council in the manner it did, it
laid down how much should be given to the Indian army,
and how much to the Council. There were other details
into which ho would not now enter. Generally speaking,
he gave his cordial assent to the measure of Government,
and believed it would be found equally conducive as for-
mer measures which Parliament had passed to the welfare
of the people of India, and that by means of it the British
rule in that country would enter into a now career of use-
fulness. (Hear.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE intended to oppose the bill upon
two grounds ; first, because the proposed council for India
must in the end become the politibaL partisans of the Go-
vernment of the day; and, secondly, for the much stronger
reason that the present was not the time for the intro-
duction of such a measure. He happened to have some
knowledge of Ceylon, and he could inform the house that
while the East India Company were considering the desi-
rability of removing import duties, the Government in
Ceylon were imposing a duty of 2 per cent. The moment
the Government took India into their own hands, from
that moment India would deteriorate. The noble lord
had talked about our having governed India for 200 years,
013 we had acquired no less than three-fifths of India
since the year 181.1. He felt assured that the present bill
c )uld not be ad )ptel in its present shape. He trusted
that the men who had so ably governed India would have
a fair hearing on the second reading of the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the hon. member who moved the amendment to the bill
lai I much stress upon the petition so ably drawn up by
the East India Company, and referred to the Company as
having laid the foundation of the annexation of the Indian
territory to the British dominions. He agreed with the
hon. gentleman who last addressed the house that the
petition recited a great deal that was creditable to the Com-
pany, but a public document of that kind ought not to be
merely good in composition, and eloquent., but it ought
t be based upon fact, and close and cogent reason. There
were two assumptions which were put forward in that
document. One of them, that this country owed to
the East India Company the vast territory of India; and
the other assumption, that the East India Company's
Government was the best Government that the world ever
experienced. Now, allow him to examine how far those
two assumptions could be established. tWith regard to the
assertion that this country was indebted to the East India
Government for tho territory of India, he would stop to
inquire how far that was made out, and whether India
had all the value attributed to it. Tho East India Com-
e
pfity
was benefited
Com-
pany
.).
ne
the e
policy
p fullyauboundy.boyhft
admittedod 3a bhi
neoeti, iftnh a
just, t theyacquisitiontahhne
eadcGosslotfaiilvet:dl
inehdi
Government
tnni
hatEamhsaeicetar
ansntotopttaitthli horpindeifsdaeitnticchrayoob.eiuutucweEnnt:iettanhrrrsiygyeei
to on st 7311E°
,wvaosulniusdayertahactietehpos(eiepbetr
hound to show that it was of enormous advantage to this
country, He wholly disputed the doctrine that it was
owing to the policy of the East India Company that India
was annexed. Every person who was acquainted with
h story would conceive with him thatit had been the policy
of the directors in this country that all wars and territo-
rial annexations in India should be avoided. That was a
policy of the East India directors. When they wore a mere
tr %ding company they held that policy ; and it was by the
energy of such man as Clive, and the rapacity of such min 63
Warren Hastings that their Indian empire was carried.
The Indian Government and the management of affairs in
India, were placed in the hands of the company's servants,
and those servants wore insubordinate, mutinous, rapa-
cious, and unjust. They were called upon to make remit-
tances home by the directors, and what was the way they
did it ? By planderiug the people ? (Hear, hear.) The
directors always said—be just, avoid war, avoid annexa-
tion—but don't forgot to send us money home. (Laughter.)
;:y the voyage by the Cape of Good Hope, four or fire
months or more were occupied in the passage from Eng-
land, and the opportunity for insubordination and rapa-
city was favourable to the company's own servants. He
maintained that the annexations of territory were made in
the face of the orders against such a proceeding, issued by
the directors not to annex territory. Parties who went
out formerly as goiereor-genarals returned abounding in
wealth. Clive and Warren Hastings acted up ,n that
police. One p -rty was made the subject of Parliamentary
attacks of a very severe kind, which were persevered in
carneitly until he put an end to his own life. Those were
some of the effects of the founder of their Indian empire,
as he was called. Well, then, lot them take Warren
Hastings. They knew the rapacity for which he was dis-
tinguished. They knew that this house voted that he be
roe slled. They knew that the company and directors sent
for him, and that the Secretary of State sent orders for his
return home, which he disobeyed. They knew that when
a few years afterwards, he returned, ho was made the sub

w Ni t
oh t ao
nd e3ggrreeea
to fmanjt ra-
pacityof l
thati
of the day, not even Mr. Burke nor Mr. Fox, ventured to
etinsrtiripnagss himec l.
impeachment, cnhelern cha
throw his shield over him. By common consent he was
condemned. (Hear.) Therefore it was quite a mistake
ec
to say that by the policy of the Indian directors the terri-
tory of India earns to the Crown of this country. The
annexation Of India came into the hands of this country
by the insubordination and mutinous conduct of the ser-
vants of the East India Company. That was the state of
things by which the government of India passed out of the
hands of the company in 1784, and a series of governors
were appointed under the political influence of the execu-
tive Government. Now, the Governor-General of whom
it might be said that India became really annexed to this
country was Lord Wellesley. He went out to India. and,
by the system which he'introduced, he succeeded in ren-
dering India of more value to this country than it ever was
before. By that system the accession of territory became
greet and complete, and the Indian army and all great
Indian political interests were brought under the rule of
the sovereignty of this country. He concurred in the
policy of the East India Directors at home, and if their
policy had been carried out the country would not now be
in the unfortunate condition which was so much to be
deplored. He said that in fairness, but he felt that it was
to the good qualities which distinguished Englishmen
wherever they were placed that they owed their Indian
empire. It was by the subsequent policy of their Gover-
nor-Generals that their territorial accessions in India were
to be attributed. He disputed entirely that portion of
the petition which said that they owed their Indian
empire to the policy of the East India Company. He
now came to another point in the petition, for which
credit was taken. The petitioners say, " they feel assured
that the more attentively their government of India ii
considered, the more light would be thrown upon India,
and the more evident would become the fairness of the
manner in which the company administered the eovern-
ment." Now, looking at that, he thought the ehbaracter
which the Zest India Company bestowed upon themselves
was not very modest. The East India Company was said
to have originated the power of this country in India;
but the power in India was consolidated in the reign of
William 111., and it was not until the battle of Plessy
that the company could be said to have any power in that
country, when they carried Douinier. It was after that
that the Government of India began to make claims upon
them for a share in the territorial accession; and the

company-proposed a coruprothise with the Government,
offering to pay them a ' stim of money instead of that
which was proposed- by Lord Clive—the. the Crown
should take po'ssesiiim 'of those territorial accessions.
That was not acted upon by the Government, and the
compromise was entered into for the payment of the sum
of money. That state of things continued for a few years,
until the abuses attracted the' notice of England, and in
1783 an act was passed by Lord North, which was called
" The Regulating Act." The abuses of the Exit India
Company began to force themselves upon the attention of
the Parliament, and the first attempt of the Government
was to endeavour to control the local government and
council of India. The members of the council were five,
who were named in the act ; and in 1773 three of them
went out. Two of the five were there at the time, one of
whom was Warren Hastings. Well, then, the result of
that Parliamentary contra' was dissension ;n the council.
Sworal dulls took- piaci', and the eualprotuise with the
supreme court was defeated, confusion reigned, and the
Parliamentary control was a complete failure. The Par-
liament,, for the first time, interfered with the Exit India
Company in 1731; but there was power also taken by the
act of 1783, when there was a power given to inspect all
correspondence from India. In the few years that fol-
lowed that`' was not found sufficient, but increased powers
were taken, the result of which was Mr. Pitt's act of 1784.
But even that was not found satisfactory, and committees
of that house were appointed and ling reports presented
to Parliament from time to time, which might b 3 found
in four folio volunies—(a laugh)—comparad with which
their modern blue Peeks were puny produotione. After

that, seveuteen reports of committees were successively
presented to Parliament- That was the Parliamentary
history of that time. In 1784 Mr. Burke described the
Parliamentary result of those inquiries to this effect, and
it showed how far the character which the company
gave of it, a Inenietretiou was true. Mr. Burko's
resolution in 1781 was to this effect, that the East
India Company was found totally corrupted, and per-
verted from the purposes of its institution, whether of
war or of peace. All their treaties had only given cause of
breaches of faith, and that at home the servants of the
company had obtained by nefarious practices the mastery
of the body by which they ought to have been governed.
When this was discovered, certain alterations were made,
but the company refused to support them, and they sane-
tioned the scenes of robbery and plunder which had been
brought out in evidence before the committees of that time.
That was a faithful picture of those times, and the senti-
ment that had got abroad in these times of gratitude and
devotion to the company was totally unknown. The evi-
dence before those committees showed that no civilised
company on the face of the earth was more rapacious and
corrupt than the East India Company, from the year 1758
to the year 1784. Then came the period when it was
placed under Parliamentary control. Before that it was a
mere trading concern, and open to the charges to which he
had alluded, and which were damnatory of the East India
Company as a political body, and he confessed he could not
read without surprise the character which the East India
Company had given of themselves, founded as it was since
the company had been placed under the Board of Control
and the Governor-General of India, and subjected to pub-
lic opinion the control of Parliament. All that could be
said in favour cf the company dated from 1781. It was by
confounding the acts of two periods, before and after Par-
liamentary control, that the company was enabled to take
to themselves this character. Then, let them follow their
Parliamentary history from 1784. Upon looking at it, it
would be found that Air. Burke and Mr. Pitt very nearly
annihilated the company at that time. The bill with that
object passed the House of Commons, and was thrown out
in the House of Lords, on account of the alarm of the King,
who thought it was intended to invest his Ministers with
dictatorial powers. But Mr. Pitt, after throwing out
the Government of Mr. Fox, introduced another bill,
the effect of which was to institute the Board of Con-
trol, the establishment of which totally altered
the character of the company, which up to that
time .. wee a trading and sovereign power. The
effect of that measure was to place the company in a purely
subordinate situation, and from that time the company
was placed completely under that department of Govern-
naent. In 1793 Mr. Dundee, then President of the Board
of Control, brought in another bill, the effect of which was
to bring to complete perfection the system of double go-
vernment. That originated in 1784. That Minister re-
newed the charter for 30 years, and after the expiration of
that period the Gover:roent of the day determined to abo-
lish the monopoly of the East India trade, and that was
effected in 1813. That, in fact, was the first great stone
struck out of the edifice of the East India Company. That
he thought would not have been done if Parliament had
been of opinion that a boundless debt of gratitude was due
to the East India Company. But they retained the mono-
poly of the China trade for 20 years longer. At last Go-
vernment came to the conclusion that the whole of the
trading powers of the company should be abblished, and
that they should be prohibited from trading with India and
with China, but that the sovereign and governing powers
should be preserved. That was in 1833. They then lost
altogether their peculiar character of traders. These
changes resulted in a constant diminution of the power of
the company. Again, in 1833, when the question was re-
opened, nothing was said of the sentimental view of the
question. The whole of the trade of China and India was
thrown open, and the company then obtained a renewed
lease of 20 years, ending in 1853, during which the com-
pany was the mere ghost of the former company. Then
came another renewal of the charter in 1853. There were
circumstunces in operation at that time favourable to the
company. The previous twenty years had been tranquil,
and there was as improved spirit, in consequence of the
vigilance of Parliament ; but, even under these favour-
able circumstances, Parliament did not renew the charter
without a farther diminution of power. One-third of the
directors were to be the nominees of the Crown, and no
further change was then insisted upon, the principle being
that a joint-stock company having a common fund to
administer should allow those who had an interest in
it a voice in its management. It was only reasonable that
those who had an interest in the fund should have some
control over its management. The constituency who
elected the present Court of Directors was a mere extended
body, having no sort of connection with the affdrs and
interests of India. It wag nothing more than the spectre
of the original body, who carried on trade with India and
China. The fallacy which pervaded the petition of the
East India Company was speaking of that company as if it
were a body one and endurable—as if it wore unchanged
in character and functions, while there was as great a
change as had taken place in the constitution between the
Heptarchy and the reign of Queen Victoria. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) It was the merest and most transparent
sophism—it was offoling an insult to the understanding to
attempt to palm upon this house ae guments of that nature.
The next question they had to consider was, whether the
present state of things called upon the house to acquiesc
is the independent con het ,nce if the EaA India Company.
From the year 1793, and before that date, the East India
Company had been renewed for periods of ten years,
(Hear, hear.) In 1853 Parliament did not seem inclined
t ) grant another 20 years' lease, and the manner in which
the company was continued was, that its existence was
prolonged until Parliament should otherwise determine.
No .v, practically, every law was in this form; even the
Habeas Corpus Act itself exi-ted only until Parliament
otherwise enacted, and there was not a single privilege
which was not held upon a similar understanding. There-
fore, the East India Company might be considered as if its
term was to be renewed from time to time in perpetuity.
That was practically the result, until Parliament should
determine otherwise. Ho (the Chancellor of the Exch-
equer) entirely concurred in the proposition which had
been laid down by his noble friend, that there was no
ground for implying any blame to the East India Corn
pally as to the origin of the East India Company. He
did not believe it was possible to show that any vigilance
on the part of the East India Company could have guarded
against the recurrence of these disasters, or that when
that mutiny occurred, it would have been possible to sup-
pose that any measures would have been more proper or
more effectnal than those which had been adopted. But
this he did say, that the present state of things lea I
brought forcibly under the view of the Executive Govern-
ment—and he heartily shared in that conviction—the
clumsiness, and inefficiency and defectiveness of the whole
Government of India. It was not in times of tranquillity
that the stronger or weaker parts of a system of govern-
ment were detected, It was only when a stress of bed
weather came about that ono was able to try the firmness
of the ship. He could not, therefore, understand the
difficulty which hon. gentlemen felt in comprehending
how institutions should be for a certain time stable, but
that when a crisis occurred a Government should come
forward and ask for a change in their institutions. He
confessed he did not understand how, when the Home
Government was creates! expressly by the authority of
Parliament, the East India Company should still ba con
sidered an independent power. They were the breath of
the nostrils of Parliament ; they had no power but what
Parliament conferred upon them, which was circum-
scribe l by innu nerable restrictions and limitations. There
was the Board of Control, and there was also the Court of
Directors. These two bodies acted and re-acted upon each
other in a manner which was accurately defined by Act of
Parliament. There was nothing which Parliament might
not at any moment remodel. Well, these authorities were
embarrassed by needless delays ; they were subject to fre-
quent procrastinatious ; they divided responsibility; they
threw obscurity upon the seat of power. (Hear, hoar.)
Whenever Parliament coufsrred power, it also required
responsibility. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
would venture to state the converse of the proposition, and
maintain, that whenever Parliament exacted responsibility,
it should also concise trate power- (Hear.) Why had Par-
liament so much difficulty in these questions ? Something
went wrong; recourse was had to the President of the Board
of Control. He Bahl, " Oh, the matter has been referred to
the Court of Directors, or to the Governor-General." They
said the matter has been referred to the President of the
India Board, ho cannot give a clear answer. (Laughter,
and hear, hear.) They might perhaps say there was a dif-
ference of opinion between them. Then a discussion arose,
ant the opportunity for action was lost. The rarliament
failed to grasp what it sought to hold, and without enter-
taining any unkind feeling against the hon. geatleman, the
chairman, who had a seat iu the house, or the vice-chair-
man of the board (Sir F. Currie), he must say that their
disputes had not been of a satisfactory description,: and he
begged to say what he did with all sincerity, but he could
not conceive that it would be more satisfactory to Parlia-
ment if they were able distinctly to fix upon the e*cutive
authority in this country the clearest responsibility of any
act affecting the Indian Government. Upon these grounds
he conceived that the present system might be abolished,
and that our Parliamentary authority should be established
in Indian affairs upon the ground laid down by the First
Minister. The right hon. gentleman defended the proposed
council from the charge made by the hon. member for
Huntingdon, namely, that they would not be in the same
independent position as the directors ; and he then pro-
ceeded to show that in making the changes explained by
Lord Palmerston there would be no interference with the
existing patronage in India. If that course should be ob-
jected to it was a mattes which could be hereafter consi-
dered. Well, but then there remained the question of the
cadetships. He thought that, looking at the provisions of
the bill, it could not be said that it conferred any increased
patronage on the Government. He could not coincide with
the views of those who said that the Government would
take away the power of the directors merely for the pur-
pose of having the distribution of patronage in its awn
hands. He believed that at present the practice of the
Court of Directors was to divide the patronage among the
individual members of the court, and by the proposal
of the Government, if it were agreed to, the mem-
bers of the new council would be, in like manner, •a-
trusted with the distribution of patronage in connection
with the President of the Council. That was, in fact, the
only change as to the distribution of patronage which this
measure would effect. There would be, as he had stated,
no change in the mode of appointing persons to the civil
service; the highest offices in India would contemn:, to be,
as at present, in the hands of the Government, and the
cadetships would be divided between the President of the
Council and the members of that council, just as they were
at present, among the members of the Court of Directors.
It could not, therefore, be said that this measure made any
very great change in the present mode of distributing
patronage ; but he could not conclude his observations on
this subject without saying that he could not help de-
preeating the idea that the East India Company should
be maintained merely for the purpose of distributing pa-
tronage in a particular form. He should wish to
sea all
appointments in India distributed among persons who
wished to exercise the power entrusted to theinefor the
benefit of the people of India. (Hear, hoar.) An I he
confessed ho could not hear without the deepest regret the
patronage of India talked of as a heritage of the people of
England, without any reference to the benefit and welfare
of the people of India. Indeed, the distribution of that
patronage among a certain section of the people of Eng-
land %yes talked of as a matter right ; while, of course, the
interests of the people of India were left entirely out of
contideration. There had been many arguments urged
against the bill of a similar nature, but he could not be-
lieve but that the house would test the question at issue
onits own merits, and by looking to the groat olsjeet Which
all ought to h Ivo in vie s namsls, as to hew ludiam go-
virmuent might be beet adniiiiistered in future—and that
they would, not be turned aside by the dilatory argu-
ments of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Basing) in support
of his amendment. The hen. gentleman had shrunk
from meeting the motion for leave to introduce the
bill by a direct negative. What he asked the house
to affirm was, that the present was not an expedient
time to make any alteration in the government of
India. Well, he could have understood the hon. gentle-
man if he bad argued the question on its merits—if he had
said that the present govt rnment of India was a good ono,
and that it was meant to be coeval with the British consti-
tution. Re could understand an argument like that, but
he weld nvt.linderetawl a gelAtlalliall, Coming forward and

saying, " Hero is a government upon which condemnation
is proposed to be passed, and what I ask of Parliament is
to postpone its decision on the question submitted to it."
Why, nll that hal passed in Parliament that night would
be known throughout the whole world. The hon. gentle-
man did not say that t' a, arguments against the existing
system were not true; but he simply asked the house to
postpone its decision. Well, he would ask whether even
in the interest of the East India Company itself there could
be a more inconvenient course than that they were asked
to adopt ? Here was a bill brought forward by his noble
friend at the head of the Government, and who had ably
explained all its main features. The friends and advocates
of the East India Coinpany had not the courage to say
that the arguments against the existing system were not
true. They would not say that that Government should
be maintained even for a few years to come. They would
not defend any of its anomalies; but many said that this
was not the time. Arguments of that sort could lead to
no satisfactory result. (Hear, hear.) They did not place
the company iu a better or a more secure position—they
did not contribute to the security or the strength of the
Government in India—and he believed that the house
would not consent upon such grounds to the amendment
of the hon. gentleman the member for Huntingdon. In-
deed, apart from these reasons, it would be a most unusual
course for the house to-refuse permission to the Govern-
ment to lay a bill before it which had reference to one of
the greatest questions of the day, and particularly when
that bill might, if the Government had chosen, have •
been introduced in the House of Lords without asking
the permission of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Any mem-
ber of the Government might have laid the bill on the
table of that house without asking the consent of Parlia-
ment : but the Government felt that on such a subject it
was due to the Legislature to proceed at every stage of
his question with the fullest- deliberation. That house
had the privilege no doubt of refusing leave to introduces
bill if it thought proper, but he would remind hon. mem-
bers that it was a privilege which ought to be used with
moderation, and he hoped that upon that occasion it would
not be used to refuse to the Governmentpermission simply
to lay upon the table of the house a bill affecting large and
important interests. They did not ask the house at that
' stage to assent to the principle of that measure; all that
they wished was to lay it upon the table, in order that its
principle and its provisions might he. subsequently fully
discussed and considered ; and he (the Chencellor of the
Exchequer) could not but believe Uiat, looking at the greet
interests at stake, the house %WM' permit a bill to be in-
treduced for improving the malhinery. by which the admi-
nistration of an immense empire was in future to be car-
ried on. (Hear, hear.) In fast, the principle of the mea-
sure, as explained by his noble friend, had been wholly
untouched, if not completely misunderstood. The robe
friend had said that if the Gaveeninci.t. did not believe
that the hill would improve the Government of India, they
would not have introduced it. The Government further
said that it left the whole of the internal administration
of India precisely where it was. It did not make any 'al-
teration in the powers of the Governor-General, in the
powers of the governors of presidencies, in the position of
the civil servants in India, in finance administration, in
collection of the revenue, or the administration of justice
in the courts of law. In these respects the administration
in India was left entirely unfettered. What his Noble
friend (Lord Palmerston) asked was simply to consolidate
and concentrate the Government of India in this, and by
means of that change to simplify and render more effective
the whole administration of India so far as such a change
could effect that object. Such a change Would in hie
belief, lealito a greater concentration of power in India.,
and would give a reality of strength to all the de-
partments of Governmen' in that country, which could
not fail to have the most beneficial effect, while as to the
time at which the measure was introduced, he would.
merely say, that it was upon great emergencies that such
measures were called for, and that this measure ought to
be tried on its o n merits. (Cheers.)
Mr. MANGLES said he had intended to confine his obser-
vations to the point whetter this was a proper time to bring
forward such a measure ; but after listening to the very able
speech of the right hon. gentleman, he could not help making
a few observations on some parts of that speech which he
confessed had surprised him. He was well aware of the
great historical knowledge and attainments of the right hon.
gentleman, and yet there were some statements in his speech
so glaringly incorrect and o widely different from the real
facts, that he felt compelled to answer them. The right lion.
gentleman had denied that at present India was of any direct
advantage to this country. Now it was impossible for any
on, who knew the facts to deny that England derived great
and immediate advantages from its connection with India
under the existing form of government. A very large sum,
varying from three to five millions annually, was sent from
India to this country, not as tribute, but in the payment of
dividends on the stock of the company, in the payment of
pensions to retired civil servants of the Indian Government,
in the payment of officers of the Indian army on half-way,
and in addition large sums on account of the Queen's troops,
not
an the transmission of stores. Probably, upon an average,
d less than five millions yearly were sent from India for
these purposes, and could it be said then that the present
connection of Great Britain end India was of no immediate
advantage ? The right honourable gentleman had denied
that India had been conquered by the East India Company,
and had challenged the advocates of the company to show
that they had any bright pages in their annals until they
came uuder Parliamentary control. An honourable
gentleman had quoted some bitter words from the
speeches of Mr. Burke oa the occasion of
well
known impeachments; but he (Ur. Mangles) would iu reply
read some Passages from Lord Macaulay's " Memoirs of Clive
and Hastings," in which the words were of a more sacchariao
character. (Great laughter.) Thelhon gentleman proceeded
to quote from tho memoirs referred to, far- the purpose of
showing that, at cucce isivo periods from 176.5. both Clive and
Hastings had interfered to put dOwn abuses;
arc' there could
be no reforms without abuses—gtughter)—that those great
statesmen had introduced reforms into Indian administration
which had alerwards been fully carried out by Munro, F.l'
phinstone, Cornwallis, Metcalfe, and others, long before FIX'
Hainaut had any control ever the Government of India; and,
bringing down the history of the administration of that com-
pany to the period when the Indian and the Mahomedail equally regard with gratitude and respect the statue of Lord
Bentinek, he contended that there were at least as
ma my bright pages in the history of the East India Company
before it was subject to Parliamentary control as there had
been si..co. (Hear hear.) The government had very inap-
propriately
brought forward this bill during the mutiny-
He was no alarmist ; he believed the mutiny would be put
dos n ; but at present the whole province of Oude was up in
arms, and many other parts of India were in an unsettled
state, and any proposition for a change, under such circum-
stances, must have a bad effect on the people of India. It? -
honourable member for Davenport had spoken with just
warmth against those who tailed for an indiscriminate mas-
sacre of the whole people of India, and very properly de-
feuded the to ep.mte conduct of Lord Canning. But those
were the very men who petitioned against the rule of Lord -
Canning and the government of the East India CompallY,
Nirou!d not the people of India naturally say that if a
change were made in accordance with the demands of the
petitioners, that that change would be detrimental
to the interests of the people of India. (Hear, hear.)
He would admit frankly that the Government of India went too far in former days in sanctioning the abominations of the Hindoo religion ; but ho thought persons were novi
disposed to go further in the opposite direction. Both sys-
tems were bad. Formerly Hindoo superstitions were not only
countenanced but actually paid for—prayers for rain, for ex" •
ample—by the British Government. Much of this has been..
altered ; and although we were bound to withdraw undutiful'
wrong concessions, yet the people of India should not be led to believe that we were not only going to withdraw undue con-
cessions, but to make religious aggressions upon them. The
pulpit, and the platform had already done much to alarm the
people of India on that point. The Church Missionary Society
in a paper which they, had lately issued deprecated the exist-
ing system of tolerationand hoped thattho existing neutrality
would no longer centintik. And now, when the 'Government
called for a change, he entertained strong fears that the pro-
position would fill the'minds of the Indian people with alarm,
lest it should have the effect of bringing them under a rule loth
tolerant than what they experienced un. er the East India
Company. (Hoar.) -
Mr. ROEBUCK moved, the adjournment of the debate to
Monday, and the motion was agreed to.
GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. FITZGERALD, leave was given to
bring in a bill to amend the laws relating to the presentment
of public money by grand juries in Train&
HARBOURS OF REFUGE. •
Mr. BENTINCK moved that the select committee on liar;
bourn of refuge do consist of 22 members, and that Admits'
Duncombe and Sir James Elphiustone be added, He cool'
plained that as the committee was at present constituted
there was net a nautical mania it.
Mr. WILSON thought the motion was unnecessary,
the committee had new ly finished its labours. It had
sat the whole of last session, and was expected to make i,.
e
report by Easter. He admitted that Lard John Hay, e
was a nautical member had met with au accident, and "Z;
noble lord did not speedily recover, as he hoped he
would, _
would then arrange with the hon. gentleman opposite for the
appointment of some other nautical Member
on the c°l32.
mittee.

After some discussion,
Mr. WILSON said ho wou'd not, seeing the opinion of the
house to be in favour of the motion, further oppose it.
The motion was then agreed to. •
The hon.° then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.

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BIRTHS.
Elovaan--On the 12th inst., at 21, Denbigh-place, Bo%rile;
road, the wife of Alfred George Howard, solicitor, °
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MARJORIBINKS— On the 12th inst., at 15, Great Stanb•Pe'
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MARRIAGES.
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CAPELL—On the 24th D DEATHS.
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third s;n of the Earl and CouuteEs of Essex, aged 26-
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