The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-08 00:00:00

which it was issued. He was not aware there was any
intention to give them fresh in.tructions.
THE 78Til HIGHLANDERS.

Mr. CAMPBELL wished to ask the—Secretary of
State for War, in reference to the recent distinguished
mark of her Majesty's favour corferred on the 321F,0t
• for tkeir gallant dkLrice of Luctinow, whether or not it
was his intention to recommend to the gracious consi-
deration cf the Sovereign the claims of the 78'.11
lenders, to redeem the pledge given to the regirneLt-hy
Sir Henry Havelock and Sir James OuLram.
General PEEL said this was one of those questions
which be thought tni4lat with propriety be put eff.
(Hear, bear.) It was no part of his duty to recommend
any particular re4iments to the favourable notice of the
G own. With regard to the question he naght2 I ow-
ever, say ghat no despatch bad been received which re
com'uended any particular honours to be paid to the
78th, but there was no record of any pledge given either
by General Havelock or General Outram with regard to
it. On the contrary, the only record he found was in a
letter of the Times, Sir J. •Outeam in that letter was
made to say that, glorious as was the conduct of the
7Sh, it was nobly emulated by all the troops, and the
90t,ii and 64.11 were particularly mentioned. If any re-
F:irutnmclation reached him he should feel great pleasure
in laying it before the Commander-in-Chief.

SUPPLY.
Mr. FITZROY brought up the report on the F.' upp7Y
which was agreed to.

EDUCATION COMMISSION.

In reply to Lord J. RossELL,
Mr. WALPOLE said tbat the cornmi4sion cn educa
tion moved for by his right hon. friend (Sir J. Pakii•g
ton) was almost ready.

THE INDIAN RESOLUTIONS.

The house went into committee on the Indian resolu-
tions, Mr. FITZROY in the chair.
On the third resolution, which refers to the councl,
and declares that it should not consist of less than 12
or mcre than 18 members.

Mr. GLADSTONE and Mr. ROEBUCK rose together—the
calls of the committee being for Mr. GlVatone.

Mr. ROEBUCK—I rise to order. I proposed a m(1-
tion that there should be no council at all for the go-
vernment of India, and it was considered by the home
on the last occasion that it would be the most logical
mode of proceeding to take that proposition first. I now
sir, ]cave it to yours, As a logical head, to decide whether
lam not logically first before the house. (Laughter.)

The Ch AIRMAN _decided that the &Meiaimenta of
the right hon. gentletoan (Mr. Gladstone) had precedence
and called on the right bon. gentleman to pronged.
Mr. ROEBUCK (amidst calls for Mr. Glad,tone)
said—l rise again to order. lam sure, sir, you will re-
collect what took place on the last occasion, and that
the committee then decided that my propo,,ition, as
being logically first in order, should be first di,,cussed.
Lord J. MANNERS—I rise to order, and wish to
ask whether, after you, sir, have ruled, it is canipttfrnt
for the hon. and learned gentleman to proceed I
Mr. AYRTON wished to know whether, as the hr.n.
and learned member for Sheffield was in possession of the
committee when the question was last before them, and
as this was an ttdj ,urnment of the proceedings, it was
competent fcr any other hon. member to cut in with a
new amendment!

Tne CHAIRMAN said it had been decided in Mr.
Duffy's case that a member who had been addressing a
committee was not in possession of the committee after
an adjournment. He therefore called on the right hon.
gentleman to proceed,

Mr. GLADSTONE then rose, and Paid he could as-
sure the hon. and learned gentleman that nothing was
further from his intention than to avail himself of any
technical firms for the purpose of interfering with that
logical order of the proceedings on which the hon. and
learned gentleman so stroagiy insisted. But he did agree
with the hon. and learned gentleman in his view of logi-
cal order. If it had been determined that the present
Court of Directors should be abolished it might then be
proper to consider the question whether there should be
a new council at all before discussing what the new coun-
cil should be. (Hear, hear.) But as the character of his
proposition was to keep the Court ef Directors in e xii-t-
-euce fora limited time, subject to rouse modifications, he
submitted that the more proper and orderly mode of pro-
ceeding was to decide that proposition first. They were
now, on the 7:h of June, about to resume, or he should
rather say to recommence, the work ef legislation on
the affairs of India. He did not lay much stress on the
period orthe year at which they began this work, be
cause if public considerations required that they should
, proceed to definite and conducive legislation on this
subject, it was the duty of the house to disregard alto-
gether every consideration connected with personal con-
venience and arrangements ; but on the other hand, the
house must be aware that in that case the session must
be protracted for an indefinite period, or they must dis-
turb the ordinary arrangements and die ribution of the
business of the house. The motion made by his right
hon. friend the member for Oxford, and the discussion
to which it gave rise, were sufficient, he though!.., to show
that the settlement of India wa ; a matter of greater
difficulty that some of them had supposed, and breueht
home to them in a practical way that in setting; about a
reform of the Indian government, they sheuli proceed
with the utmost circurnspecti In. (Hem-, hear.) Bet the
eneatinuance of the war iu Irdia was anetter circum-
stance which must weigh with the houso in considering
this question. (Hear.) Uehapply the c intinuance of
the war in India did not mean any longer its coetieu-
ance from mall to mail, because since they last dis-
cussed the question they were landed in the hot period
of the year, and the most sanguine moan amongst teem
did not now expect, did not now believe it—he might
almost say— possible that that war, which unfortunately
had assumed so much a more formidable character since
the time when they were accu-tomed to describe it as a
mere military mutiny, could be terminated in the pre-
sent session of Parliament. (Hear.) There was no man
who would not probably feel thankful if complete train
quillity was restored to India by the time they met again
in the next session of Parliament. He leoked upon the
question of the continuance of the war, both on general
and on more particular grounds, as ore having an im-
portant and even a vital bearing on the question whe-
ther we should continue the attempt definitively and
completely to legislate for India in the present se,eien.
(Beer.) He would venture to ask the noble lord (Pal-
merston) and his colleagues in the late Government
whether, if they imagined the war would have been pro-
tracted to the present period, with a prospect of at lea t
aix months' further hostilities before them, they would
have introduced their bill in February 1 He doubted
whether they would have done so. But the house having
twice determined, the first time by a large and the see, nil
time by an overwhelming majority, not to postpone le-
gislation this session, he wished to testify his respect for
that decision, and to affirm by a bill in the present ses-
sion the principle adopted by the house, that the govern-
ment of India should bo transferred to the Crown, and
that the power acquired by the Crown should be exer-
cised by a responsible Minister. As one connected
with the mercantile class of this country he must say
that those who sought to find grounds to disparage that
class for government should not lock for materials for
their arguments in the admieidration of India. (Hear,
hear.) But it was admitted on all hands that there
was much in the objection of the cumbrousness of
form under which tae business was conducted. On
the other hand, let it not be supposed that they were
going to conduct the Government of India with railway
rapidity. (Hear.) He was very much struck with the
pregnant declaration which he saw in one of these able
documents which emanated from the East India Com-
pany since these discussions began—" That the forms
for transacting Indian business were practically and in
fact the constitution of India." But it was admitted that
these forms were unnecessary and inconvenient. He
would remedy that inconvenience by proposing that the
minister for the Crown who was to be responsible fur the
Government of India should be placed in direct connec-
tion and jextaposition with the Court of Directors by
presiding as their chairman whenever he thought proper
to do so. That was the first part of his preposition ; and
the second was that the President of the Board of Control
should take into his hands and exercise the power of tne
chairman of the Board of Directors over and above the
power of presiding at the deliberations of the court. This
proposition was made with a view of meeting the objec-
tion derived from what was known as the initiative of
the company. At present the initiative was in the hands
of the chairman and deputy-chairman of the company.
Therefore the effect of what he proposed would be to
enable the responsible minister to assume, as far as he
found it necessary, the initiative in the
ansaction of
Indian business. It would be a mistake to suppose that
his proposition was simply one for the Altus quo, or that
it was a mere nominal transfer of power from the hands
of the company to the Crown, for whilst the change was
one which would introduce no great diqtrrangetnent,
either in the proceedings of the president i f the beard
or of the company, it would satisfy the spirit of the re-
solution to which the house had arrived, whilst it would
aisnost entirely meet the practical objection made by s he
noble lord on the present coestEut ion of the Home Go-
vernment, for India, and which he stated as the reason for
the bill which he introduced into the House cf Commons.
He was rf opinion that they should give effect to the
judgment at which the house arrived ; but on the other
hand he had a strong opinion, which he believed was
shared by many in the house, that it was not practicalele,
during the present session of Parliament, to dispose
Indian
Government and conclusively of the question of the
Government in such a manner as befitted that question.
He laid stress on the words "as befitted the question,"
because he admitted it was in their power to legislate.io
The bill might be a very simple one, if thepropos n
of the hon, and learned member for Sheffield was
adopted, But he did not think they could pass such is
bill as would be worthy of the subject. The problem
of the Indian Government which was presented to them
was only the most formidable that ever came before
them, not
b ueese greatest and most formidable problem
that was ever presented to any nation in the while his-
tory of the world, because it was the first time when a
people at one extremity of the globe had attempted to
hold within their rule 200,000,000 at the other ex-
tremity of the globe—and to hold them within their .
rule on what conditions ? Not on the condition on
which great conquerors proceeded great conquests had
been made by races of superior energy which in the
coarse of time amalgamated with the conquered race
and incorporated themselves with them co as to become
one consistent and homogeneous body. But that was
not their position in India. They went to India, not
to become Indian, or to incorporate themselves with the
people, They went there not only as strangers but to

remain strangers, not as a race, but as
T ere was no Euglishutan who went to India who did
nee, remain in India as much ao Engliduan. as before
e left his native shore. (Cheers.) This constituted
but one of the difficulties at this great problem, hut as
hetweeu delay and precipitation in leg,islaion, it was
enough to influence him in preferzieg delay because the
evils that could arise from aelay word', be insignificant
compared with the ens s arising from precipitation.
With re, are' to the political position cf the natives of
bad they made up their ? There were
s ~me very bign authorities v.ho theught that their
proper function in India was to educate the natives fin
tegber Yociat and political duties. Mr. Kaye, who pos.
sweet greet praatieal knowledge of India, says' " the
Itnis,ion ef the native=s of India to the highest eifices
of the state is situely a question of time ;" nod Mr.
lialiday ear, "I believe that our mission in India is
to qualify the natives for governing themselves." A full
consideration el this ought to enter into any measure
that peeled the House of Cornrnone ; but he could not
conceive a more nefortunlite timeh,rheennogiTiggcdthitai taqwti:rs;
ton than the present, when they were
when any concession might be attributed, not to their
deliberate convictioee, but to fear. (Req..) Then, with
regard to the civil service. Of the fernier be would not
on that occasion eay anything. Bet how to deal with the
military set vice was no email question. (13f-ar:) Was it
a email matter to destroy altogether tho relatien which
niveitstect between the great army cf India and those to
whom they were accustomed to look upon as their nett*.
•al protectors ? No revere: ce was made te that army in
the resolutions of the Government, and thou Ii reference
bad baste niede to it is tit bill of the late Government,
teat reference weal made in such a way that tie thought
it, had been better omitted: (llt ar.) The t fatale,. of that
army would occupy a kind of secTatortry position, for
trey would net be Qutea'S (facers, but a kind of local
force, wanting that true military spirit which was fos-
tered by belouging to a disitiect service, and partaking
more af the 01a: teeter of a cees'abulvy or police force
in some county (f Eoglend. He must confess that for his
own part, he had always thought it a very great misfor-
tune that the Indian army should be awed in any situa-
tion of relative inferiority at all. (Hear.) What was
India ? What was the Indian army It was the finest
military school in the world. With regard to the Queen's
army, such was the general tranquillity of her dominions
that in time of peace it was with the utmost difficulty the
military character of the Queen's army could be deve-
loped. With regard to the native army in India, were
they ti place it, commanded as it was by British officers,
in a secondary position? He wished to know whether
they cola deal with leti various sutj-cts connected with
Indian h.gia!:Aion at this iti-tnent ? In *hat position were
they g,ing topics tbefo:c.,i The ,whject was one ofgreat
difficulty; it ir velved the entire question ofreorganisatioa
and could not be exelurieci from consideration in a final
ychetne of Iretian I -e-lation. He would again refer to
another subject of very greet importance, and one abso-
lutely rtqu,iiiig review when they were dealing with the
question of Indtau government, but to which there was
not the sligateet reference in either ;he bills or the re-o-
lutioes. He meant the question of the constitution of
the local government of India. Some seemed to think
that this was alt a matter of course, that they had a ma-
chine in motion, moving like clock werk, and that no-
teing inure was required than a few menthe considera-
tion of legislation for Indian government, and there was
nothing demanding attention ie connection with the lo•
cal goeerurnente. Such was not the opinion of Parlia-
ment in former times. He did not believe that even those
bast acquainted with India had at the present moment
arrived at a solution of all the leading questions con-
nected with the local governments. It was a matter of
doubt whether it was desirable to constitute these go-
vernm.mts on the footing of an independent governing
establishment in each presidency, or whether they should
centralise the authority in the bands of the Governor-
G etteral in Calcutta. At a former period the local go-
vernments w.re to a great degree independent, as was
natural when et the early stage of our power Calcutta
was not the head-quarters, but in 1853 the independence
of the local governments was diminished. At present
there were two systems in operation with regard to the
local governments which were somewhat incongtuoua.
The govereor in each presidency had a completeadvising
council, as if be were independent ; but, on the other
hand, his independence was reduced within the narrow-
est bounds. Generally speaking, he was a Bert of sub-
governor, holding h'e power subject to the discretion of
the Governor-Gererai at Calcutta, whilst at the same
time he had a council constitutel to a great extent as if
he exercised independent power. When they were re-
vising the machinery of the lielian government, it was
important they should consider to what degree they ought
to centralise the power in the. hands of the Governor-
General, of leave it with the governors ; if it was to be
ceotialieed, whether the govey nore ought still to be euta
rounded by acouncil, and whether the presidencies ought
nut to berepresent•i in the councilat Calcutta, where thezr
affairs were in the last resort to lee determined ! These
were all questions of great importance, strictly relevant
to the question of Indian government, and yet nu which
neither the late nor present Government had given any
judgment. Were riot thee.) questions on which they
ought to have an opportunity of consulting those.distin-
guished men who were now a xsrcieing power in India,
clethed with the authority of her Majesty ! Was it
rational to proceed in such a manner ? If these ques-
tiens of local government deserved to he examined,
would it not be Ivorth while to court the opinion of
Lord ()Arming, Lord Harris, aid Lord Etpbinstone, who
had practical experience I He wished to submit to the
c)minittee, as they were about to attempt final and corn-
prelieneive legislation for India, a few words with re-
gard to Indian finance. He did not refer to the claims
which might be made by persons who, being creditors
of the Indian Government, may consider that Parlia-
ment has no right to alter their eecurity by removing
the East India Company from the position of debtor
without their consent. (Hear, bear.) This was a matter
on which he b&ieved, that, before they were able to
legislate, they would be called on to enter into a great
deal of minute consideration. Thi•e however, else not
what he wished now to direct attention to, He referred
to the subject of finance in connection wi.h the war now
going on. They were called on to adopt a new act for
the government of India ; not a temporary, but a defi-
nite and comprehensive scheme ; and it was desirable
that on the all-important subjects connected with the
government they should make arrangements which
would stand to a reasonable degree the wear and tear of
time. How did tl e question of Indian finance now
stand with iegard to the great question of liability
fur the Indian debt ? When they thought they had no-
V.ing to deal with but a military mutiny, or when they
believed the war would terminate with the taking of
Delhi or the capture of Luc now, it was natural enough
to suppose that they had in view the extreme limit of
the financial liabilities they were ab ,ut to incur, so as to
enable them to proceed with final legislation. That was
not the case now. They should consider on what
revenues or what exchequer the Indian debt was to be
secured? The Indian revenues fnened but a limited fund;
he did not moan to say they would not increase, but
when lie looked to the nature of our tenure of that coun-
try and our present difficulties, he did not think they
could calculate very ex ravagantly on. the elasticity of
the revenue. They might mortgage the labear and capi-
tal of England to any extent so long as persons were
ready te lend money, and whenever they found a geed
reason to borrow; there could be no doubt as to the suf.
fciency of the security; but owing to the present state of
India and the probable length of the war, the receipts of
revenue must be diminished from the present 25 cr 30
millions, whilst, en the other hand, they could not ex-
pect to carry on the war at an expense of less than 10
to 15 millions a-year, thus lessening the condition of
Indian Iluance to the extent of some 15 millions. Did
they mean to d. &are that the debt contracted on behalf
of India should be charged only on the revenue of India?
(hear, hear.) If they passed this act, they would lay
down a new basis fur Indian finance; that basis ought to
be sufficiently broad. There were ether relations hetween
Indian debt and Indian fianance and the ultimate re-
sources of this enuntry. (Elear.) But at this moment tl
revenue was diminishing, the debt and charges were in-
creasing; was it safe or prudent to choose such a mc-
merit for the purpose of altering and reconstituting the
entice basis of Indian debt and Indian finance? Thee'
were all points on which, it appeared to him, it was im-
possible for them to proceed or even profess to proceed
to any deficits or comprehensive legislation. There was
another qua: tion to which he would only refer ; it was
not touched by the resolution, hut it was one which
must be fully discussed in that house—he meant the tic-
constitutional peeition in which, from the occurrence of
unforeseen circumstances, the prerogative of the Crown
was placed as regarded the use of Indian finance and
the Indian army for purposes not local, but Indian.
theAt e presentro wn—t
Crown—the
he
ere
Britishw er two a armiesrmy
and atth thee
Indiandisposalayor.f.
The British army existed only by
thedepcolawreedoio be a
liatnent. In the Bill of Rights it,
newassubject to keep on
bi:gh violation of the liberties
toot a standing army without
thbatet
the tauthority- of Paint men r,
ytwexeelvrceimseodn,
there was no permanent he •
and so much jealously was uettih:caet auFtbrott;mit
t welvetuontb anact declared the number
every
of the force, and annual
f a mutiny
rthingof the cost was separately
d into effect by the British
voted by tb, Louse; andif ever any measure involving
his Pities were to be came
army, the Minister was obliged to info rm the house by
message, at d request their concurrence in his policy.
a, the position of the British army ; but there
SZI wanother army, of which the Parliament and people
of England knew little, over the management of which
they taduo control. Were they going to place in the
hands
of the Crown the whole management of this
finance and this army ? (Hear.) Was it possible that
at this time of day the House cf Commons could be so
forgetful of the traditions of other times, so unworthy of
the duties that had descended on theta, as to countenance
so uneonstitutional an anomaly ? When the time oao3ll
he would denounce in plain language so monstrous a
doctrine, so dangerous to the maintenance of their
power in India, and the maintenance of their liberties at
home, and the privileges of Parliament. Let them not
suppose that they had done their duty as guardians of
their liberties, if after allowing this they established
pillowsbecause withthey theh a
nominal Parliamentary responsibility. Let them not
dlaiyscht their igr e headsi
ro on their
duties
di dea
retainedthey
hadthe
power of calling the Minister to account. (Hear.) That
was a shadowy power, and they would not discharge
their duty if they surrendered into the bands of the
Crown, or rather (~f those sitting on the Ministerial
bench, the whole power the army and taxes of the cogs'
try, end say, "It is all rigbt, they aro responsible to
the He use of Commons." This question was not so im-
portant PO long as the Indian wars and Indian army
were merely local; but they now ruled over two hun-
dred millions of men and were in contact with.
a vast frontier. The jealousy of English statesmers
now saw, or imagined they saw, British, European,
and world-wide interest in Indian wars; and felt it
necessary to cross Asia and mount the Persian Gulf, for
the purpose of using the regiments of the Indian army.
It was time for the house to interfere, unless they wished