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London, England, 1858-07-31 00:00:00

are more completely observed, but the same advantages are
4ecured. Under these circumstances, I trust the house will
consider without prejudice this particular amendment of the
other branch of the Legislature, will, upon reflection, be of
opinion that it is an amendment made in no spirit of hos
tility to that application of theco npetitive principle to tin
-cientific branches of the army which we seek to maintain,
r dictated by any other feeling than a respect to constitu-
tional usages, and will be prepared, in thesamespiritof con-
ciliation and reciprocal respect which has attended these
discussions, to accept alterations inserted by the Lords. Let
in impress upon the house one consideration which ought
eot to be absent from our minds in concluding on
aboure upon this important question. There has rarely
mien a subject of legislation more important than the
one with which we have dealt in this session respect-
er the Home Government of India. Let the house 'w-
e-elect that for upwards of 70 years this question has
-seen, at intervals, the subject of parliamentary discus-
-ion —that it has given rise to the greatest acerbities of
feeling and prolonged acrimony of political sentiments;
that it convunsed Cabinets, dissolved Parliaments, and that
dually it has been recognised by the country as one of those
knots that no ingenuity and no impartiality could eve!
untie. I claim no merit for the Government in having
brought this matter to some satisfactory conclusion. I
claim some merit for Parliament and some for the House
•W' Commons ; but I claim the chief merit for the more
enlightened spirit of the times in which we live, for the
liffused education of the country where we have the hap-
oMess to be fellow-citizens, and the rising sense of value
which we all of us attribute to intellectual acquirements,
,nd our recognition of them as a proper qualification for
.satnission to civil service. This spirit has assisted us in
'winging this bill to its present state. It is, I think, only
surprising that there have not been greater differences of
to justify the interpretation which we had put upon it. opinion between the two houses arid ameng ourselves in
his house; but what I would impress on the House of
The clause in question deals with the circumstance of Commons is this—the great desirability there is that this
instructions being sent out to India commanding A legislation should be brought to a conclusion without leav-
foreign war, and it is here provided that, when an order
llng on any side and in any quarter, in an, state
jr condi
ama of this country, any feeling of irritation or ealouey.
to commence hostilities is sent to India, the fact of such (Hear, hear.) It is impossible that the middle cl sses,
order having been sent shall be communicated to Par- whose claims have been urged so freely, fairly, and con-
tently in this house and in other places—it is impossible
Lament within three months after the sending of such
that the great body of the community can for a moment
order if Parliament be sitting ; and, if Parliament be no feel that their claims have not been regarded. We have
sitting, then within one month after the next meeting -ffected this change, if the house to-night consents to this
of Parliament. There a eared to be some inconsist final snip ; and so far as the patronage of the great empire
pp
of India—won, I freely admit by the energies of the middle
eney in that lancuage, and we proposed that one month. classes —is concerned, the great bulk will be obtained and
should be inserted in both cases. But the amendment enjoyed by those middle classes, not only with the cer-
of the Lords intended that notice should be given tainty which they enjoyed in old days, but with far more
honour, and by a process infinitely more beneficial. (Hear,
of the fact within three months if Parliament should hear.) Let not, therefore, the other house think that in
be sitting, and if it should not be sitting then within coming to what I may calla happy conclusion, we obtained
one month after the resumption of its deliberations, that result by any disregard in this house of the fair
The amendment of the Lords, though obscurely ex- prerogatives of the Crown. lam sure that those prero-
gatives are duly estimated, and will be, if necessary, pro-
, was really wisely coeceived, for, suppose the perly protected in this house, and let us, by acceding to
Government sent out orders to India to commence hoe- this suggestion of the Lords, conclude our `labours with
tilities, a month would elapse before the Governor-Gene- this conviction, that wo have, after all our pains, esta-
ral could receive them. By that time, under the clause blished, on the whole, a home Government for
as amended by the Commons, the orders would hay, Indio, adapted to the circumstances with which it will
been communicated to Parliament ; but on the arrival have to deal, and have at the same time effected this ob-
of the instructions in India the Governor-General might jest without creating jealousy, suspicion, or dissatisfaction
possibly be unprepared at the moment to obey them, in any portion of the community over which her Majesty
and in that case he would have no time to make the reigns. (Hear.) I trust the house will, therefore, cstehnet
Home Government acquainted with his position. The to the amendment which the Lordso h
alivee partproposed
of the Go-
to
communication of the order for the commencement of 34th clause;
that
I cmi
ionnly
saaty' n trecommendation we do it
hostilities, however, would then have been made to Par-
,vveirtnhnat ehnet in
lland in
ft in that
ration of establishing, with re-
liament, and so the very power against which it was in- spect to the scientific branches, that wise and beneficial
tended to wage war would become aware of the policy of competition which will prevail in the civil service of India.
this country before the Governor-General was in a situa- It will be one of the first duties of my noble friend, if the
tion to give effect to it. (Hear, hear.) Therefore the house accedes to this proposition, to draw up regulations
Lords suggested that in any event the term of three which will rule the examinations in question, and which,
months should be allowed to elapse before the communi-
when approved by her Majesty in Council, will be laid on
bcaetiniogneoif the order to Parliament, so as to admit of time the table of the house. They will then be open to the
criticism and vigilance of the house, and whenever any
ven for communication with the Governor .Gene- alterations are made they will likewise belinnounced to the
rahl.. I hope the house will consider that amendment, house. We shall then have the satisfaction of having mita-
W Which is now sent down in language that cannot be mis- blished the competitive principle by Act of Parliament
understood, and I venture humbly to recommend it as throughout the whole civil service of India • or having
One calculated to promote the public advantage. I will secured to the great body of the community the free enjoy-
now proceed to the consideration of the other amend- went of military patronage, by its distribution through a
went of the Lords, which is one of great interest at the council sympathising with them ; and of having at the
present moment. The interest of this amendment arises same time secured the competitive principle even in the
principally from this circumstance, that to a certain cis- scientific branches of the army, and that in a manner which
gree it has been supposed to affect the action of the corn- no one
t i car say has attackedorweakenedantyhoprsveeorgrae Sovereign
petitive principle in public appointments. If I might oornrher throanneytopetrhsoen lif thiscountry,
est of n from
her subjects. ( Hear.)
presume to give an opinion on that subject, I would say
amend-
strong lam a firm, though not an extravagant or head- The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving that the
house do not insist on its disagreement with the
supporter of the competitive principle for public inept made by the Lords.
appointments. In the theory of that principle I entirel Mr- ROEBUCK said that the right hon. gentleman had
concur
hut I know well that theory and practice do not put the question on an unfair footing. The service in India
always agree, and I have viewed the application of that consisted of three parts—viz., the civil; then the Engineers
Principle with, I will not say great anxiety, but certainly and Artillery ; and la'tly, the army. For the two first
t
With all that interest which attends the application of a the competitive system was very properly to beintroduced,
novel principle to public affairs. As far as lam able to
but byose that the rest of the army should be appointed in
d the alteration made in the House of Lords it was
form an opinion, I think that principle in its practical
another
way. (Cries of "No! " ) He wanted to know
application has been entirely successful. (Hear ) It has why, if in selecting persons for the two most onerous and
tome out of the ordeal ref proof a pure and perfect wea- difficult branches of the service in India they applied to the
pon— (bear, hear)a•but still that is a principle very novel principle of competition, they should not apply to the same
in its character and likely to have important results, and principle in reference to the third branch ? The objection
I cannot suppose that on a question of that novelty am, was that by so doing they would interfere with the prero-
magnitude there can be throughout the community a gatives of the Crown, but was there not as much inter-
per& ct identity of symnatlq and opinion. lam no' ference with the prerogatives of the Crown by establishing
therefore at all surprised tbat when the amendment of competition for the first two branches of the service he had
the Lords came down, we found an objection on their mentioned ? If there bad been difficulty heretofore in
part to binding up the competitive principle, whice they changing thheendGeodeferronmert ot. Indi al, bo,e.caamusoeugn7oaft deneser
fully recognise, in an Act cf Parliament. The House, was apprehended
aands ofmthe throwingrosvn hosavrbcculd that danger ho
patron-
however, decided, after deliberation, not to adopt the
amendment of the Lerds, but to adhere to the clause in agesl well removed as by throwing open to competition all
the bill which boraches of service in India? Thathouse h.d ich better
gave what may be called a Parliamerrary apply itself, not to arranging patronage between the aris-
title to employment in the civil service of India (stumped tocracy and mid lie classes, but toobtaining a good instru-
by unrestricted competition. There is another clause of went by throwing open the whole of those branches of the
a different character, in which that principle was to a service to a real competition. The proper course would
certain degree involved, to which the Lords ebjsct upon to throw open the competition to every one who chose to
constitutional grounds, and to which I would draw the place his name upon the register, and if there were 10
attention of the House. It certainly does seem rather vacancies arid 1,000 ca-.ddates the whole 1,003 candidates
inconsistent, tbat in the very bill which provides that
.ought
i. e
applied
tot 0 ulnnddeirag citt examination.rio uld
have
greater
r e alt fe r thiseffe o
ttu principle
doing
awwearye
newer Majesty shall appoint to all military commissions awlithe patronage of the Crown, without endangering the
mattes the appointments to a portion of those c-o mi.- could be adopted. Be contended, therefore, that the
entirely independent of the will of her Majesty house ought to insist upon perfect, open, and complete
(Rear.) In that light the Lords have viewed this pro- competition for Indian appointments. (Hear, hear.)
yi'i°nr and they are apprehensive that inconvenience Sir H. RA WLINSON observed that the only question
may arise from a departure from a constitutional prin• before the
services.
house was with
E e,r
reference
He did
to the
not competitionopposethe
fur
eTie which has always prevailed in the mils ary service. thescientific
Since 1853 the civil service of the East India Cempany motion that the house should agree with the Lords' amend- •
menu but he thought the nature of the cleuse had been
has been open to unrestricted competition, and the civil
entirely misunderstood when it was supposed to affect the
Patronage has been distributed entirely am:timing to the Queeds prerogative. It must be remembered that the
order of merit, although it was not provided in the Act sstem of appointments in the Indian army differed
of that year that such a proceeding should absolutely be entirely from that in the Royal army. Her Mejesty
followed. It was there only provided that there should never did nominate directly—and it was not proposed by
be public examinations, according to the regulations this bill that she should nominate directly—to any branch
drawn up by the Secretary of State, and which should of the Indian army. Her Majesty merely appointed on
be approved by her Majesty in Council, and that a copy the recommendation of the Secretary of State, and could
of those regulations thus approved should be laid it make any difference whether that recommendation.
was
before Parliament, in order that Parliament might be the result of competition or of private patronage ? If
y the Lords
aware cf the existing regulation, with any alterations
officers of the artillery and engineers were not to obtain
that might take wises in them. Now, what
appointments by competition they would obtain them in
object to in the 34th clause is not the • • lof the first instance by the nomination of members. of Cou_u-
prlncip e cil, some of whom would not owe their position to the
competition, or its being secured with respect to the Secretary of State or to the Crown, but to the votes of
scientific branches of the army as amply as it has been the Court of Directors. So far as the prerogative was
secured with regard to the civil service since 1353, but concerned, it seemed to him that there could be no differ-
to this being done in a manner which tveuld seem to cues between recommendations which were the result of
violate the constitutional principle which hitherto ha. competitions and recommendations which were the result
prevailed in all appointments to the military service. I of private patronage. The 34th clause did net provide for
am sure Ido not mistake the feelings of the House when an exclusive competition, for a sentence in the civil her-
I say there con be no desire on our part to trench upon clause was designedly omitted from the clause relat-
ivniceetothe scientific branches, in order that the establish-
the prerogatives of her Majesty. (Hear, hear.)
Those me°nt at Addiscombe might—if it were thought advisable
Prerogatives during her beneficent reign have been so by the Secretary of State —be maintained. The object
discreetly and wisely exercised that there is a ver3 was to secure a double competition, the open competition
general opinion through ut all classes of the community proposed by the claese, and the limited competition of
that their existei ce has been beneficial to our iir,rtits, Addiscombe, The system of competition had already been
and to the good government of the country. (Hear, successfully adopted in the civil service. It was now pro-
hear.) But, in having to con ider so large a question as posed that the same experiment should be tried in the
the transfer of the goverment of India from the Gem- case of the artillery and engineers, and he entertained a
party to the Crown, we have been placed in a difficult confident belief that it would be equally successful in
and delicate position, which required on the part of both those branches of the service. He thought ite desirable,
branches branches of the Legislature very judicious discrimina• however, that the establishment at seeldiscomb should. b
kept up, for whether the competition was thrown entirely-
tion. In this great work we have added greatly to the onen, or the limited competition of Addiscombe was re-
authority of her Majesty. We have invested her with etneee, the candidates for the scientific branches of the
13. ew Prerogatives, new privileges, and new powers ; but service would be drawn from the same class as at present.
in doing that we have felt it our duty to insert new con- Sir DE LACY EVANS said the question under discus- ,
ditions and regulations with respect to those new pri- siou seemed to become more and more complicated, for it
l'ileges and prerogatives which we should not have now appeased that there had been some private under-
thought of introducing if we had had to deal with the standing that there was not to be an open competi-
ancient power belonging to the Crown. What has been tion, but that A :discombe was to have its chance, and
the great difficulty which has prevented long before this that those candidetes who proved their competency
the termination of that anomalous government of In ea would not necessarily receive appointments. No inti-
ation of such an arrangement had, as far as he was
Which was carried on by the Company ? It has been felt me„ere, been given by any member of her Ma-
for nearly a century that it was a great anomaly that ' jesty's Government, and, notwithstanding the very able
India Bb°Uld belong to the Eogll,ll, and yet effieuld not and comprehensive speech of the Chancellor of the Exches
be directly governed by the Soy-reign of England. But quer, he felt bound—more so, indeed, than he hail felt him-
the difficulty of solvine this problem was that no one self previously—to vote for disagreeing with the Lords'
could devise any means by which we could deal with the amendment. He entirely concurred with the opinion of
vast patronage of India. It was always said that it was the hon. member (stir H. Rawlinson) as to the beneficial re-
More natural and would be more beneficial that the sults which might be anticipated from competitive exainnat
government of India should be carried on directly be
the Sovereign of Enelaed ; but there has been, in thje nations. This question had very justly s urine prose
discussion been connected with the so ject of patronage,
about which not a word had been said in the other house,
ffst place, a great apprehension that the power of the where the question had bean treated only as affecting the
_Crown would be dangerously increased by the possession of prerogative ; but one of his main objects, in common with
all the patronage which would result from such a govern- inany other hon. members, was to withdrew from the hands
meat, and there bay been, secondly, a pleat suspicion in of the Minister a great portion of the patronage which this
this country, remembering that India was gained by the bill would place at the disposal of the Government. (Hear.)
energies of the middle classes—(hear) --and that these Ho thought also that the effect of the competitive system
; "s,ses have long possessed the patronage which they had upon the military information of the country ought not to
fairly won—(hear)—than the proposed change could not be be lost sight of in conziderinc, this question. The noble
effected
without injury to the legitimate interests of the member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) had said on a for-
qlk of the community, and a dangerous increase of the mer occasion that we were a warlike nation without being
Powerif of the Crown. (Hear.) It appears to me that that a military nation, and it was to be regretted that the
anA"ltys which has baffled some of our wisest statesmen people did not possess such an amount of military inforrna-
" the wisdom of many Parliaments, we have in a great tion as would be most useful in the defence of this country
degree solved by the creation and development of that very and its possessions against foreign Powers. It had been
"ropetitive principle of which I have been speaking. stetal by two eminent members of that house, one of them
(Rear.) Those who before had to consider this question the present Lerd Chancellor of Ireland, who had strongly
had not the means or the machinery by which t hey could advocated the adoption of the competitive system, that its
istmneeatnetehe difficulty. We have met them in the present effect was te give a stimulus to scholastic education
. patronage of. st
effildineniatl, ayas usl
completely. Let us see how throughout the country. The noble lord at the head of the
the
thls great revolution has regardstake the middle Derby)
classes, after Government (Lord had spoke-a on this subject in
place,
of the transfer fro m auother place in a most conciliatory tone, but all the noble
the Company to the Crown, is
affected by the bill as it lords who had exeressed their opinions had not followed
conies down from the Lords. Let us see whether in ac- his example. One of those noble lords (Lord Campbell)
cornplishing this great work we have been mindful of the —one of the highest diomitaries of the law—had accused
interests of those of our fellow-subjects who have such that houseof having lostbits senses on this subject. (" Hear"
strong claims upon our consideration. The whole of the
and a laugh.) That noble lord had sant that the House of
civil service, as the bill comes from the Lords, is secured Commons hal gone wild, and he added that the House of
entirely to those who deserve to obtain and are qualified Commons ought to be subjected—['rim hon. and gallant
to possess these important offices; in other words, the member was stopped by a call of `• Order" from the Speaker,
owhole
.of the civil administration of India is secured by a in enforcement of the rule which prohibits any hommember
e'erliamentary title to the great bulk of the community. from quoting debates in the other house.] He must say
If we look to the military portion of the patronage, we he thought tho noble and learned lord had done himeelf in
shall find that it will be distributed by a body of roan justice, for he believed the profession in which that noble
Who, in position, character, attainments, and connexions, lord had gained such distinguished honour was more ex-
resemble in a great measure the late Court of Directors,— posed to the principle of competition than perhaps any
of a body which must consist in part of members of the other in this country. Not a day passed in which persons
late Court, and which as far as the nominated members did not go through competitive examinations in order to
are concerned, will be composed of gentlemen of Indian their being called as barristers. (Hear.) The noble and
experiencee and connexions ; so that the larger portion of learned lord said he was in favour of discriminative exa-
;°o.ef:carn,e,ileitxa_creyptpatronage also will be distributed among the
amnrialetasorianse,dellour)udg,liii,7:v
very
y meanteiea r
lbyy explain.tht ter ratehaer
. nobleA
noble earls,yinsteolotohfecropinlapeeetitcioviedee.nadmedintahtzitotntshwe
would pro
classes, through almost the same conduits as here and
this atlyantag,e that the new distri•
ttliti3cneoaf sa..,cral revolution-- that the sons of gentlemen and
eutors will not be checked:in their action by that con•
turacted constituency which exercised a baleful influence
tt t e
agghe t,
to
ot
.moonir the Court of Directors !!(Ilear hear.) But we have lof officers in the army would be excluaed from the ser-
vice, and that iu future the appointments would be con-
those militarywritgthhtd,rianwdfeferetc.; to the' e 1.• ,h+ I ••t of
fined to the sons of rich grocers and persons of that class.
those distribution l3 11, .elie( Spill
I ) Those statements were, however, wholly at Vkan'i.--
bratihcelaesfrom the of the Council
commissions which relate to the scientific (hear•
ance with the facts which had been brought forward by
toWe have thought that they ought
Chancellor of frel
qualification •
obtainedl. by the same Intellectual merit and 1 the present Lord and when ho was einem-
ministration, walich
o f
th ° army,
had orkedot elluPetitivo
we would secure for the civil ad- I leer of that house. He showed the system e
meats of the wo'redt it is now proposed by the amend- of '-ilt in
a totally contrary
the civil service, thatand
in addition to giviug, the whole of directions—that 95 out
classes
men examined
examination in Ireland
of 100 w
thesociety, beisg
appointments withgreater portion of the military belonged to the most respectable
of -eSof
classes, so also a Parliamentary title to the middle , the sons of gentlemen and meneduction, (Hear.) ri.,,,
commissionent ou the other side t •
army should be obtained . therefore
sof a scientific character in the regarded the argum _ on his
Munity upon precisely s• unworthy of notice. ( Hear.) by the same section of the come subject as altogetherlordlie had
simile con ' •
ditions. the amend- the fullest confidence in the noble now at the head of
Ment ofethe Lords, as e By
ant drawn, constitut. ompared with the clause as it was .
iou 1 e shoutt Board of Control ; but the noble lord had no pernew
amorleas which WO ought to respect tenure of oiTice, and thee he could not forget that

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,—
When the Lords' amendments to the India Bid were
brought down for consideration there were five objection,
to those amendments. The Lords have considered the
objections of the Commons, and have waved their opinions
in a majori►y of the cases. On' three heads they have
waved their opinions, and those three`hends contain hr
far the most impar'ant objections of the Commons. Be
they have invited us to reconsider our objections on two
points, and I wish to direct the consideration of the
house to those points, feeling sure that the house will re-
consider their opinions in the same cairn and considerat
manner in which the Lords have expressed theirs. Th.
first objection is not the one which has been read by th.
Clerk at the table, but I will advert to it at once, in order
that I may at the same time tender the advice which
would humbly venture to offer them on the subject TF
first objection is contained in clause 54, and it appears t.
to have originated in a misconcep.ion, into which it iF
not remarkable that we should have fallen, because the
language of the amendment of the Lords is so obscure a,