The Sun.
London, England, 1867-01-31 00:00:00

This proposal gave rise to some discussion, during
which it was urged, on the one side, that it was the
object of the C..mference rather to get possession of
facts from persons well acquainted with the sub-
ject in hand than to specify any particular remedy
at present. It was admitted on all hands that the
Beerhouse Act had proved a sad f.tilure. Promises
to amend it had been made by the Home Secre-
taries of two successive Ministries, and had not
been carried out, but the practical experience of
those who had studied the question would cer-
tainly produce its effect on Parliament. The
amendment went the length of the Permissive
Bill, and even further. On the other hand, it was
urged that Government alone should not be re-
sponsible for the licensing system ; that the rate-
payers should share in it, and the sooner they awak-
ened to the consciousness of their duty in the matter
the better for the community; that if the Excise were
not the fit- depository of the licensing power, and
the magistrates little better suited for dispensing it,
and the appointment of stipendiary magistrates was
not approved, there was no remedy left but that
some special board should be elected by ths rate-
payers. The amendment was, however, witOrawn.
The Rev: Mr. sTACICSON (one of the dept.& tion
from Leeds nominated by a public meeting of the
people of, that borough) then proposed a very lengthy
amendment, to the effect that the power of granting
licensea.should remain with justices of the peace ;
that all licences for houses where exciseable drink
was sold should be granted by the magistrates, and
not, as in some cases at present, by the Excise ; and
that ratepayers, either directly upon certificate or
indirectly through municipal councils and boards of
guardiais, should have the power of restricting ma-
gistrate in their granting of licences. The rev.
gentleman said the local magistrates were those upon
whom a greater pressure of public opinion could be
brougbt to bear than could be imposed on any other
conceivable body. Beerhouses in rural districts were
often as bad as publichouses, and required the su-
pervision and vigilance of the authorities.
The Most Rev. Dr. MANNING said the licensing
power was at present in the hands of thosewho were
neitherdiscerning nor impartial. llis present opi-
nion, however, was that the local magistrates should
retain it, for they were most to be recommended as.
depositaries of the power, both on account of their
position, their intelligence, and their acquaintance
with the circumstances of their respective districts.
Stipendiary magistrates would have to get their
knowledge of places through strangers, and that must
necessarily be superficial. The ratepayers should
also-have their share in the power, for they had the
greatest interest in the morality of their own neigh-.
bourhoods, and possessed the strongest and most
certain judgment as to what was good and bad
for the localities in which they resided.
In a- conversation. which followed, in which Mr.'
Patterson, the Rev. H. Solly, Mr. Holden, Mr. S.
Pope, Mr. Bramston-Beach, M.P., Mr. Saunders,
and the Rev. Mr. Marsh, of Oxford, took part,
many diverse considerations were urged, among
others, that stipendiary magistrates should be'
appointed. That they worked well in other cases
was shown by the fact that th 3 magistrates of the
metropolitan police-courts were paid officers as well
as those ,in other large towns and cities. The
Board of Guardians were not proper depositories
of the licensing power, for they were of all others
the most open to corrupting influences, and a moral
as well as a legislative force would have to be, em-
ployed before working men could be induced to
practise habits of sobriety and prudence. There
was a difficulty with regard to the manner in which
the ratepayers would exercise their veto, for many
of them would abstain from it, and the old abuses
continue either wholly or partly. The only remedy
for that would be to compel them to exercise the
privilege just as they are now compelled to serve on
petty juries. Great benefit had resulted from
restricting;the hours during which publichouses could
be kept open on Sundays, and that was a strong*
argument why they should be closed altogether on
the Sabbath. There was no principle in the present
system, and licences were granted not on amount
of the respectability of the applicants, but in con-
sideration of the size of their houses and the acorn-
modation they afforded. The main law of political
economy was being violated and ignored ; for
whereas, with regard to every other class of com-
modities, demand created supply, in this case the
supply was allowed to induce the demand.
The Hon. S. L. TILLY, of New Brunswick, said
that the question before the conference was a most
important one, and not to be dealt with in a day.
He was of opinion, from his own experience, that
free trade in liquor extended evil. in Nova Scotia
the ratepayers had the right to put a veto on the
decision of the grand jury. The question was, how
to limit or annihilate the system, and though he
was not prepared to specify any means of carrying
out the proposed reform, he strenuously advised
them not to recommend free trade in liquor traffic.
The noble CHAIRMAN agreed with the first and
second parts of the amendment—namely, those
which proposed that the licensing power should be
left with the magistrates, and that all places where-
in intoxicating drink was sold should be under the
same control. With reference to the third part of
the amendment, be could not so fully agree.
lle thought it would be advisable to raise
the qualifications as to rating of the
landlords of publichouses, and altogether on
the point to which he was speaking, he believed
the Liverpool Bill (of which the provisions are given
below) Was the more satisfactory measure.

The amendment was carried unanimously.
The Rev. Sir LOVELACE STAMER said that the
ratepayers should be judges as to what were the
wants of a district as regarded a supply of liquor,
and also suggested that women should be in no case
allowed to hold licences. He moved that the debate
on the question be adjourned for three weeks.
The motion for adjournment having been carried,
Mr. MONTAGU CHAMBERS, ci.c ~ M.P., said that
under the present system memorials for and against
the licensing of publichouses were got up by open
canvassing, so that when magistrates came to judge
of the merits of a particular case, they were obliged
to believe neither one party nor the other, but make
their decision on their own personal knowledge after
inspection. That was a difficulty they had to
contend with, and they should endeavour to arrange
the details of any scheme adopted by them, so that
the canvassing of rateyayers and householders (for
they too were to be taken into consideration) should
be prevented. Large well-fitted houses were built
at the corners of all our new streets, and he was not
afraid to say that rich brewers and distillers were
instrumental in a great degree in bringing about
such a state of things. If a restraining power was
to be employed, they should be careful that it be
not turned into an instrument of evil.
Mr. LAWRENCE, who came as a deputation from
the magistracy and corporation of Liverpool, gave a
sketch of the clauses of a bill adopted for introduc-
tion into Parliament. The provisions of the mea-
sure are that there should be one licensing autho-
rity, one system of licensing ; that there should
an be
one licensing charge—£3s for large\ cities, d
graduated according to population in the smaller
towns ; a, reduction of 30,per cent, to be allowed to
houses which did not trade on Sundays. The fit-
ness of the character of applicants for licences was
to be judged by the magistrates and a certain rate-
able value to be set on publichouses ; the wants of
districts with regard to a supply of liquor to be
estimated byl the ratepayers. Publichouses were to
be open, not as now, from 4 in the morning till 1
a.m., but from 7 in the morning till 11 at night.
On Sundays they were to be open from 1 to 3 in the
atternooa, awl from 8 to 10 in -the -mains, power