The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-08 00:00:00

1858.

a secret despatch, they could have no scruple in produc-
ing a puiilic correspondence. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of DERBY—I certainly have no wish to
complain that the noble earl should have availed himself
of the present opportunity to pass an eulogium, in some
respects well deserved, on the conduct of Lord Canning;
but I must say he has done injustice to those who sit on
this side of the house in stating bat when they occupied
the benches opposite Lord Canning was subjected to any
attacks from them. (Hear.) Oa the contrary, although
from information we possessed we thought there were
great reasons to doubt the propriety of some parts of the
conduct of Lord Canning, the language we uniformly
held while sitting on the other side was that every allow-
ance ought to be made for the unexampled difficulties in
which Lord Canning was placed, and we studiously and
carefully forbore to prejudge or condemn any portion of
bis policy. (Hear.) I must say, my lords, that the
complaint of the publication of those papers comes Vtith
bad grace from the noble earl opposite, because it was
he himself who, with an intensity of interest which your
lordships must have remarked, last night urged upon the
Government the instantaneous production of these docu-
ments, and it was in order to path fy his natural anxiety
to have an opportunity of calling attention to the sub-
ject before the mail left London on Monday i ext this'
my noble friend the President of the Board of Control
consented to lay the papers on the table in the course of
toelay. (Hear.) The noble earl, however, was rot
satisfied with that promise, but he earnestly pressed upon
my noble friend and myself the necessity of producing
the documents then and there. (Hear.)

Earl GRANVILLE—The noble earl eras not in his
pace yesterday when I addreised my first question to
the President of the Board of Control, and he seems to
have forgotten that before I opened my mouth o❑
the subject a member of the Government in the
other house had promised to produce the papers to-
day. (Elea-, herr.) The President of the Board of
Control agreed to lay the documents on the table
of this house, but that was after a similar promise
had been given in the House of Commons, and it
was at a subsequent part of our sitting that tilt
departure of the mail being fixed for Monday next, I
urged the necessity of producing the papers yesterday
instead of to-day.

With

The Earl of DERBY—The noble earl has given us a
rather long explanation, but Ido not complain of it. I
only say be is not the person, having urged so strongly
the immediate publication of the papers, to find fault with
us for laying them on the table. (Hear.) I admit that
the premature and partial discussion of so grave a ques-
tion at the present moment may be productive of incon-
venience, and that inconvenience has been in a great
measure caused by the practice, exceedingly prejudicial
to the public service, of putting quest-ons without suffi-
cient notice to members of the Government upon diffi-
cult and important subjects. (Hear, hear.) At the same
time, recollect what the circumstances in the present in-
stance were. A proclamation appears in the public press;
it is read and commented upon out of doors, and a mem-
ber comes down to the other house, and asks a member
of the Government whether he has received the procla-
mation in question, and, if so, whether it meets with the
coucurrouce of the Government. What was the particu-
lar form of expression used by t!:e Chancellor of the
Exchequer with respect to this proclamation ? Ido not
think your lordships need inquire, though the noble earl
holds a different opinion ; but it would have been im-
possible for the Government, that question being put to
them, to abstain from expressing their opinion relative
to the character and nature of the proclamation. (Hear,
hear.) Observe what the proclamation was. It was a
proclamation iseued at the conclusion of successful ope-
rations ag.unst the capital of Oude, declaring that
from this time, with few and partial excepione,
the whole of the lauded property in Oude—not public
property, but the private property of every individual
lindholder— was confiscated to the service of the Go-
vernment. (Hear.) We were asked whether we ap-
proved that proclamation. Our answer was that we had
received a copy of that proclimetion as it was about to
be issued three weeks ago, and that we had thought
it our imperative duty forthwith to express our opi-
nion that, taking the proclamation es it would he
seen and read by the inhabitants of Oude, apart from
any instructions which the Governor-General rniebt give
to his agents for toe purpose e f mitigating its apparent
severity, it would prove most imp I.i ic !arid most inju-
rious to the public interests. (Hear.) We felt it to be
our duty, on receiving the proclamation three weeks
ago, to send out to the G svernor-G-neral that expreesit n
of our opinion, but when the noble earl opposite CO-1109
to read the despatch to which he has referred he will see
that we have made allowance for the position in which
the Governor. General was placed, and that, although
we have expressed our opinion as to the iropolicy of the
proclamation, we have not taken upon ourselves the re-
sponsibility f ordering him to withdraw or rescind it
but have simply expressed our anx'ous hope that in prac-
tice, and in accordance with what no doubt was his own
intention, the apparent severity of the proclamation
might be materially mitigated. (Hear.) Less than that
it would have been impossible fur us to do. God forbid
that I should seek to vindicate what has been done by
the people of Oude ; but there is a broad and manifest
distinction to be drawn between the mutiny of the army
and the revolt et the people. (Hear.) The mutiny of the
army ought to be and must be followed by wholesome
severi y and punishment. The revolt of the people has
enlisted in its favour a large amount of sympathy, and—
there is no question about it—it arose out cf acts of
doubtful policy upon our part. (Hoer.) It was not a
mutiny of those who bad eaten our salt and sworn all),
giance to us, but the revolt of a people who thought—l
ant not saying whether rightly or wrongly—that their
native Sovereign had been tit kiddy dethroned, and who
rose as an armed nation against those whom they con-
ceived to be usurpers and operessors. (Hear, hear.) It
is absolutely necessary, upon all grounds of policy and
justice, not to speak of humanity, that in the treatment
of the vanquished there should be a broad and palpable
distinction drawn between the mutinous sepoys and
the revolted but loyal people of Oude—loyal I mean
to their own native King. (Flear, hear.) The punish-
ment to be inflicted upon our rebellious soldiers is the
punisbinent due to treason, but the people of Oude ought
to be dealt with like people who have been conquered in
legitimate warfare, and I know of ne instance in which a
people having been so conquered were eubjected to the
sweeping declaration that, with few and partial excep-
tions, all their private property should be confiscated to
the use of the victors. (Cheers.) D I say that it might
' not be necessary to issue a proclatnation to the peop'e of
Oude, and even to threaten with confiscation those who
continued to stand in arms against us ? By no means ;
but for putting an end to future strife, ant inducing the
great landuveuers—who, like the feudal proprietors of
former times, are chiefs with armed retainers, men of im-
mense wealth and iliflu-nce—to came in and subject
themselves to our authority, the course was not to drive
teem to desperation. It was to hold out a band to those
aho might be willing to acknowledge our rule, and I
could not have complained of this proclamation in sub-
stance provided it had teen reversed—if that which ap-
pears as the qualification had been made the main article
and that which is now the main article bad been made
the qualification. If, instead of proclaiming the confisca-
tion of all estates, with the exception of those persona
who might come in and receive the indulgent considera-
ti m f ills Government, proclamation had in the first in-
stance been made, that the Government were ready to
receive wi h every degree of indulgence those who bad
been seduced into revolt, and to restore the lands, pro-
perties, and possessions of those who might have been
temporarily in arms against them, provided they at once
submitted to the clemency of the Governmout and pro-
mised allegiance to the Sovereign ; but that, on the other
hand, those who continued in revolt must expect no
mercy and ne forbearance, bu that they would be sub-
jected to the just confisca'den of their property for con-
tinuing to carry on a hopeless struggle—l think that in
that case tie Governer-General would have held out
to those great chieftains of Oude an inducement to
come to his terms and to submit to his au
thority, which would have materially shortened the
struggle in that country. By taking the other course—
by driving these men to desperation, he was likely to
pretreat the struggle, because these chieftains bad noth-
ing but their arms to trust to for the maintenance of
their property. Therefore I think her Majesty's Go-
vernment would have failed in their duty if, when that
proclamation reached them, they had not intimated to
the Governor-General their opinion of its policy, and
had not expressed their hope—and they had done noth-
ing more—that in practice be would see reason to miti-
gate to a great extent the wholesale confiscation which

the prodsmation itself was likely to convey to the minds
of the people of Oude. That is the course which her
Majesty's Government have pursued. It may have been
—I think it was—unfortunate that a question should
suddenly have been asked, the consequence of which
has been the production of this letter ; but it would have
been impossible to satisfy the public mind that the GJ-
vernment of this country had not neglected the interests
of humanity if they had allowed it to be supposed they
sanctioned and consented to the issuing of a proclama-
tion apparently confiscating the property of those whose
crime was- not to have mut:nied, but to have been in
arms against our authority. (Hear.) The noble earl
opposite has said that at an early period Lard Canning
was blamed for too much clemency, and that he is now
apparently blamed for too great severity. My lords, what-
ever may have been said e f the too great clemency which
Lord Canning was supposed to have exhibited towards
the Sepoys, I think the noble earl will do me the justice
to recollect that when on that side of the house 1 can-
didlyand plainly stated that I thought Lord Canning's ex:
planation had satisfactorily vindicated his conduct, and
had removed every imputation which hail been casst upon
that
him. (Hear.) What I complain of in
Lord Canning has not drawn the distincthtiiosnicranwstebinici
ous Se-
poysmost important should be drawn between thteat
he
is treat-
h it is
and the rebellious people oFOude, and that to treat
ing with great severirntye,norwahTpophhaeareenvaneoltiblYile, int" mg
been guilty of a cots-
with great seveii'Y,
paratively trifling offence. ,
,eraar l
Canninga k s
fr o whetherm
we have recalled or intend
Ito
V:ehave no such intebtion,
the Government of India.
naant wa s ti
cr) u
6s
iy-
a t; d the communication which
General with respect to that
n: r ow oal as s e
tti
o: the
sGt
ulnr r
so warded that Lord Can i gtsho.uld not consider it as
necessi y, in accordance with his
imposing uponfhim. the
resigning the office which he now holds.
, own honour, o
We did not even go so far as desire him to recall the
proclamation—we only expressed a hope that he would
ac
t upon it in a merciful spirit. The same view appears to
have occurred to Lord Canning himself, for the last prim-
-1
graph but one of the amended proclamation which ap.
pears in the public papers seems to indicate the exi,tence
in the mind of the Govereor-General of an ietenti n to do
to a certain extent that which we urged upon him the
nece city and propriety of doing. (Hear, hear, from Lord
Grey .) But that mitigation did not appear in the original
proclamation, and it was to the original and not to the
amended proe'aroation that the despatch which has been
sent to India had reference, (Hear.) I am glad to be

able to take this opportunityof saying that, although I do
not think it goes far enough, yet, undoubtedly; that pa.
ragraph is a considerable mitigation of the prec'amation
as originally issued. Ido not wish to oast the slightest
blame upon Lord Canning, but I cannot say that I ap.
prove the course which he has pursued. I do not doubt
that Lord Canning pursued it with the best intentions.
I doubt not that, in his own mind, be wished to pre-
serve to himself and to the Government the power of
materially mitigating the severity of that proclamation ;
but your lordships will observe that unfortunately—l
mean unfortunately with regard to the effect upon the
people of Oude—the mitigating spirit was not made
known to them while the proclamation of wholesale
confis.cation was—a circumstance which was calculated
to drive the people to desperation, and therefore
indifinttely to protract the straggle in that coun•
try. My lords, I earnestly hope that Lord Canning
may have acted in a spirit of generous
favourappre-
gheaadttinhgethrtnce,rimar,o_cyeouvfienorsfipttyahraniosecfteiitsncheteienhnoatr
iviogenitrltes
olcdafiexactlierhdene—egp;
hoe
aoaf
npvt
delheegtormhfeaaaOttntli
greatly
rems ;Ii
at
practicaltxi
diminish its severity
may avert those injurious conse-
quences with regard ter the continuance of war an 4 the
continuance Of bad feeling which I cannot but anticipate
are likely to flow from the proclamation in its original
form. (Hear.) Ino not regret that at the present mo-
ment this letter thou d have been brought so. promi-
nently into notice—that its produwien should have
been, perhaps somewhat hastily, promised ; and I am
sure what has pessed your lordshipe will see the pro.
priety of the course which my noble friend has recom-
mended to-night—that of laying on your lordships' table
only such por• ions as may be published without causing
serious inconvenience to the public service, and omitting
some passages which, if published in India, might, in
the opinion of her Majesty's Government, produce a
most prejudicial effect. Tile noble earl (Earl Granville)
bimerlf, as a friend of Lord Canning, has had an oppor-
tunity of seeing the whole despatch. We thought it
right, after his intimation the*, he intended to make
some observations upon this sat jest, that he should see
the whole despatch and should be made acquainted with
all that had taken place ; and I think that, however
much he may re gret that any portion of the despatch
should have been made public, be will concur with me
that we have exercised a sound discretion in laying upon
the table only extracts, omitting certain paragraphs
which I pointed cut to the noble earl. (Hear.)
The Duke of ARGYLL—I shall not be tempted by
the speech of the noble earl to say one word on the
merits of Lord Canning's proclamation, upon the policy
of which he has taken this opportunity of expressing a
decided opinion. I beg the house to rec that my
noble friend (Earl Granville) most careailly abstained
from expressing any opinion on that point; and although
there were many observations of the noble earl (the
Earl of Derby) in regard to which it will, when
this subject is debated in a few days, be easily
shown that the noble earl labours under mistaken im-
pressions, yet those matters are not now before the
haute, and I will therefore not discuss them. What we
ought to press upon the attention of the Government is
the course of conduct which they have pursued towards
Lord Canning with respect to this proclamation. (Hear.)
If one sentiment has been oftener repeated than another
by noble lords on both sides cf this house, and by hon.
gentlemen on both sides of another house, it has been,
that the government of India must mainly be carried on
in that country ; that is to say, that the government of
India and the welfare of the lu,lierr pc •ple must mainly
depend upon the wisdom aed upon the strength ut Lots
Government there. (Hear) What a comment is it upon
this doctrine, which has received the assent of the Go-
vernment, that on the very first occeeion on which tho
Governor-General issues a proc'amation of which the
home Government does not entirely approve, they take
ti opportunity of throwing him over—not merely of
expressing disapproval of his conduct, but of throwing
him over io the most offensive manner I (Cries of " No,
no," and cheers.) How can you carry on the government
of India if your relations with the Governor-General are
to be con !ucted in such a manner as this I I observe that
nei her of the noble earls oppreite who have addressed
the house have taken the slightest notice of the report
which was referred to by my noble friend—that although
this famous despatch of the noble earl (the Earl of Ellen-
borough) has gone through the secret committee, and has
been kept absolutely from the knowledge of the C iurt
of Directors—that council with which he is bound to
consult upon great queer:ions of Indian policy—until to-
day, yet it has been in the bands of private members of
Parliament for the course of several weeks. (Hear.)
[The Earl of Derby here made an observation across the
table which did not reach the gallery ] I refer to the
report mentioned by toy noble friend. I have not heard
it, but he has, and I think it important that it should
receive some expleuai ten. What was the course taken
in this matter I An honourable member gets up in ano-
ther place, which shall be nameless, and a-ks whether
the proclamation of the Governor-General has been hatted
under instructions from the Government at home.
The Mini ter of the Crown who repres-rts the noble earl
opposit's in that place is represented to have given a very
moderate answer—no doubt somewhat imprudently pro-
minifig the production of the despatch, but using very
moderate terms. In' reply to another question, how-
ever, a still hieher official cf the Government gets up
and announces to the Briti-h Parliament that the policy
of the Governur-Generel has been condemned in every
Reuse. (Cheers.) Toe noble earl, having concealed this
despatch fr nn the Court of Arectors,—and I do not see
that there was ail necessity for adopting such a course,
because :he most important matters connected with the
annexation of Oude were not transacted through the
secret committee—confined himself, as the report gone,
t communicating it to independent members of Parlia-
ment ; and what occurred iu the other House ef Parlia-
ment has all the appearance of having resulted from an
arrangement between these independent members and
the Government, by which the condemnation of the con-
duct of Lord Canning should be announced to the House
of Commons in the moat offensive terse.. I ask if nny
course has ever been taken by any G ivernment more
likely to bring into contempt the authority cf the Go-
vernor of India! If you lay down the principle that,
however your home Government may be constituted, it
is to the authorities in India that you must mainly trust
fur the maintenance and preservation of your empire,
could you have taken a course more likely to throw con-
tempt up)n those authorities and to involve the difficult
and complicated question of the government of Oude in
hopeless confusion than that which you have in this in-
stance pursued 1 (Cheers.)

The Earl f E feLENBOROUG H.--It has been alleged
that this letter ought to have been made known to the Court
of Directors only. My lords, it never would have been
made known to the Court of Directors if the proc'amati rn
had not been made public. That letter referred only to
this proclamation, and only to a particular pa'sage
contained in it. I was in hopes, up to the last moment,
that, yielding to the representations which I believe
were made to him against issuing that proclamation,
Lerd Canning never would have issued it in the form in
which it was sent home. If he had yielded to such
representations, the proclamation never having been
issued, this lettev would never have been known. It
would have remained perfectly secret, and only years
and years hence might it have been discovered that it
was once the Gevernor General'e intention to publish
such a document. It is next olj,cted that some private
individuals are in possession of this letter in extols°. The
noble earl himself is in possession of it. (Hear, bear.)
He requested to have it communicated to him, and be
now complains that that which was shown as an act of
courtesy toward' himself should be shown to ethers
equally is terested with himself in the welfare of India,
tlerue,h not interested perhaps as much as himself in
L, rd Canning. My lords, it is assumed that her Majesty's
Government have not acted feirly towards Lord Canning,
and have not given him their full support. I think it is
not flare, weeks, unhss I am greatly mistaken, since the
noble earl expressed his approbation of the secret letter
which I placed upon the table, and was pleased &so to
observe, in expressing that approbation, tbat that letter
would afford material support to the Governor-General.
My lords, what were the terms and oLject of that letter T
It declared the hope of her Majesty's Government that
our recent successes would enable the Governs r-General
to act i a a spirit c f clemency as well as of justice towards
the people. Here is the paragraph :
"To us it appears that whenever open resistance shall
have ceased it would be prudent, in awarding punishment,
rither to follow the practice which prevails after the con-
quest of a country which has defended itself to the last by
desperate war than that which may perhaps he lawfully
adopted after the suppression of mutiny and rebellion,
such
acts being excepted from forgiveness or mitigation
of
punishment as have exceeded the license of legitimate hos-
tilities."
(Cheers.) That was the principle which
itn down.
We thought it especially applicable townie:Wplaoisddiooo.l
hat do we
Oude and to the people of that country.
say in conclusion rely upon oar emir
departmentsencl that despatch to
qu'a‘lAiticetilinsgupiptiortt.h"i4 ap,
irit,
you
may
Iv
en dtddbi
idean t
as a thirg
AI
nuddi ua)nyd it wieu
but little support from it ; we
on as we were enabled to do so,
to be known to Lord Canning, alone—by which, in fact,
Bntehocetr:kLunloYwledge of the fact that
he would hadvetoreseisii
were determined to give him
her Majesty 98 _
qpuraoliii
prosecution
us.
ounp support—stheirms support, be
ebneciyt
as
observed,w e
li as
and madeooint
tpeuybel cahoevreer as
eh
tbei
ha
justirtoheue:And what did we receive a few days afterwards t
This proclamation ! My lords, no Government would
have deserved to survive 21 hours which bad not
marked with its reprobation the confiscation under such
circumstaneee of the proprietary rights of the entire
peop eof Oude. (Cheers.) I cannot believe, whatever
may be the sentiments of the noble earl and his friends,
that there can exist in this country a feeling which will
not induce all classes to support those who have repro-
l(ica theede sst.i)c h
Ia
holdde el a
that
ah taito n
tftreo mhtohßet
iGi
toi
evie r nwmhei nolt oefxli
stitd i
in
Oude Oude beer mere the character of war than of rebellion.
And Set, notwithstanding tt at fact, the penalty n
flieted is one which is hardly to be found in the recorld;
ef any history that we possess. The noble earl asks
what I desire to do with respect to the Governor-Genrral.
As I understand him, he wishes to know whether I de-
sire that Lord Canning should return to this country.
My lords, if I had desired to force the return of Lord
Cann; shoul I have made the conclusion of that de-
si a cl more in keeping with the observations which it
was nece airy to make throughout it. I avoided the
expression ef that opinion. I knew also that there
might exist circumstances when that despatch arrived
whiten might make it as impolitic suddenly to recall the
proclamation as it was diplomatic ever to issue it ; and
I did not desire to force Lord Canning to the adoption
of that course. But, my lords, I am asked what I de-
sire. I do not desire the return of Lord Cat nine', but
Ido not fear it. Provision has been made, as the noble
earl perfectly well knows, and the very beet provision.
a law days after the change
• It
tf
witilaisiesisut'ry7taanddbi wtolfef
found it had, been already adopted