The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-28 00:00:00

examination would be carried out much more effectually
by Act of Parliament than by order in council.
The house then divided. The numbers were—
For the Lords' amendment 6O
Against - 73--13
The amendment was consequently disagreed to.
Sir DE L. EVANS had a motion to submit with re-
gard to the scientific arrangements of the army. He
proposed io reinsert the words omitted after the word
" examination," as follems : "and the candidates who
may be found enteled under such regulation shall be re-
commended f .r such cadetships according to the order
of their proficiency, as shown by such examination."
Lord STANLEY said the principle involved in the
amendment of the hot), and gallant member was iden-
ti eatl with the last, and he should therefore not oppose it.
The amendment was then agreed to.
The Lords'amendments to clause 53 were disagreed to.
On clause 55,
Sir J. GRAHAM objected to the words " preventing
cr," which had been inserted by the Lords, and ap-
proved of the spirit and object of the clause as it had
left the Gammons. It was fram,d for the purpose of
" repelling" actual invasion. Now all the aggressive
wars in IF:dia had taken place under the pretext of
"preventing" hostile movemente. As instances of this,
he might mention the wars in Affghanistan and Seinde.
If the words insetted by the Lords were allowed to re-
main the clau-n would be rendered altogether nugatory.
When the Sikhs passed the Sutlej Lord Hardinge
"repelled" them—drove them back again. That was a
proceeding quite in conformity with the clause as it
originally stood. Fanciful threatened invasions met by
a hostile mcvernent beyond the frontier was precisely
the course of proemding which had for the last century
Ld to the most expansive and profligate wars. He pro-
p ed that the Lords' amendments be disagreed to.
Sir F. SMITH observed that Lord Hardinge was in-
c'ined to believe that the Sikhs intended to invade our
territories, and if be had acted upon that, and attacked
them before they crossed the river, the war would have
been ended much sooner.
General CODRINGTON said there could be no doubt
that in the case of the assemblage (,f a force intending
to invade our territories, to attack that force would be
our best defence. •
Lord STANLEY did not think that the preventing
of actual invasion world meet such a case as the Affgban
war, because the Affghan war was carried on at a great
distance from our then frontier. He did not think that
any construction that could be put on these words,
v.reventing or repelling actual invasion," could be held
to refer to the case o: occupation of a country a thou-
sand miles from cur own frontier, and which we occupied
because there was a seance that another country might
°there i•en obtain influence there, and 100 years hence
invade cur territory from that point. En truth, how-
),.;b:;-,llllllCil snore in its
being a declaration of the intention and opinions o
Parliament than is any binding force of the words them-
selves, becAu;e the other word=, " or under other sudden
and urgent necessity," were sufficient to cover almost
every thing, and they rendered almost superfluous the
word, in question.
Mr. RICH contended that by inserting the words,
" prevent'ng or" they gave power to make unjust attacks
on neighbouring states.
Colonel SYKES thouoht that the phraseology of the
words of an act of Parliament was not likely to prevent
wars in India. Pa,t history told them that every
Governor-General somehow or other found himself
engaged in a war, and the home Government always
felt them elves compelled to support him.
The house then divided—
For the Lords' amendment 95
Against it
Majority
Several other of the amendments were then agreed to.
Lord S anley, the Chancellor of he Exchequer, the
Solicitor-General, Lord John Russell, Sir J. Graham,
and one or two others, were then appointed a committee
to confer with the Lords on the amendments which had
no; been agreed to.
PaINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND LOAN BILL.
The order for the second reading of this bill was dis-
charged.
TRUSTEES, MORTGAGES, &c., BILL.
The order for the second reading of this bill was also
discharged.
LEASES AND SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES

Aar AMENDMENT BILL.

On the order of the day for going into committee on
this bill,
Mr. AYRTON said he should 1 ke to have some fur-
her exp anatiots from the,Attorney-General respecting
this bill, because, when the bill was in its last stage, a
question was asked whether it was intended by this bill
to enable Sir T. M. Wilson to enclose Hampstead
Heath, and the Attorney-General said there was no in-
tention. Since then, however, the hon. member for
Gloucestershire had liven notice of his intention to move
the omission of a clause, the omission of which would
have that effect. He thought before they went into
committee they ought to have an assurance that the
Government would not carry out that object. If that
question were brought on now, it would take the house
by surprise.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL .aid he stated the
other night with perfect sincerity that he had no inten-
tion whatever, in carrying this bill tarongh the house, of
introducing, or being the medium of introducing, any
alteration in the law which would have the effect appre-
hended by the hon. gentleman.
Mr. GILPIN said they ought to have an assurance
from the Government that they would not support this
proporation. Many who had depended on its not being
brought f )r.card were not present.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL observed that he bad
no I,uthcrity from her Majesty's Government to give
any tosaraace of the kind; but lie dad no mention to
support such a preposition.

Mr. ROEBUCK did not object to the proposition,
Gut there were c rcuznstaLces under which even a good
thing ought L-it to be done, and he should oppose taking
the hou.e by surprise.

Mr. RO LT said no one would more deprecate taking
the house by surprise than ho should, and under the
circumstances he should withdraw his amendment.
After a few words from Mr. WHITESIDE and Mr. Cox
the house went into committee, and the various clauses
were agreed to.
Mr. ROLT observed, with reference to the 21st clause,
the object ( f which is to prevent the act applying to
cases in which application has been made to Pa rliament,
that though for the reasons he had stated he should not
now move the omission of the clause, he should take
the first opportunity of remedying the injustice which
he conceivtd that clause inflicted.

Mr. MA.LINS remarked that the clause in reality
was aimed at an ind, vidual. It was exceptional legisla-
tion, and was unjust.
The house then resumed..
COWLEY'S CHARITY BILL.
The Lords' reasons for di-agreeing to the Commons'
amendments to Ois bill were coasidered, snd it was re-
solved that the amendments by this house be not insisted
upon. _ . _

The International Patent Right Bill passed through
committee, was read a third time, and passed.
The Administration of Oaths by Committees Bill was
read a third time and passed.

VACCINATION (IRELAND) GILL.
Certain of the L9rd.i'amendnaents were not agreed to,
and a committee was appointed to draw up reasons why
the houee di,sented.

THE WELLING T‘hoOtecihNmealto;MnfbuooyrinNtethlThneteMttemoEr
moNtnhsTueo.nalfatethne
et Dukeoi)ormo
Mr. S. WORTLEY called the attention of the house to
pot hfe et
‘i
vtc
ioeoml
al
ipnuegrit
tidoteinor, nwa rnhe
cahmt i
ovtvaheetdo
m‘t
posed to lea erected to tho memory of the late Duke of Wel-
lington in St. Paul's Cathedral were lately exhibited in
Westminster Hall, the artists competing were no, entitled
to expect that any of their works would be executed at the
expense of the nation unless on the ground of their intrin-
sic merit ; and whereas the judges had not recommended
for execution any of the works so exhibited, and a new
and wholly different site had since been determined upon
for this great national monument, it was therefore expe-
dient that a limited number of distinguished artists should
be further employed by her Majesty's Government to fur-
nish models with, special reference to the new site and
altered circumstances, and that those artists should be re-
munerated for their labour, and their models purchased
for the country." The right hon. gentleman observed that
in bringieg forward this resolution, he was only express-
ing the strong feeling of dissatisfaction which prevailed
both in the house and out of doors with reference to the
ceurea which he believed was about to be adopted. No-
thing could be further from his wish, however, than to
embarrass his noble friend (Lord J. Manners) ; on the con-
trary, he hoped to afford a valuable assistance to his noble
friend and the Government by 'enabling them to ascer-
tain with more precision what the opinion of the public
really was on the subject. The late competition had not
produced a single model or design which hal been adopted
for execution ; but he understood his noble friend to en-
trust the work not to the first prizeman, Mr. Marshall, but
to Mr. Stephens, a prizeman who did not stand higher than
the sixth. Tint was a course which he did not hesitate to
say had filled every one with surprise. It was true that by
the terms of the competition the Government were not
holm l to give the commission to the gainer of the first
Ariz; ; but an intimation was certainly given to the com-
petitors that such would probably be the case. He under-
stoo l that what was proposed was to adopt Mr. Stephens'
design, but to employ Mr. Marshall to execute the sculp-
ture. He (Hr. Wortley) was quite prepared to agree with
his noble friend that M. Stephens's model was a very
graceful one ; but at the same time Mr. Stephens's name
was new to the world both as an architect and as a sculp-
tor. It would surely, therefore, be a very bold thing to
entrust to the memo designer of a graceful model the respon-
sillility of carrying out a work like the present. The truth
wes the kedges all concurred that there was nsoet v one
very terms
of
r the
s
mo leis exhibited that was worthy of being executed ; and
toem
they had been deterred from reporting in h
by nothing but consideration for the artists. Since the
designs had been exhibited, the site of the proposed monu-
ment hid been chanced. Before, it was proposed to place
it under one of the nave niches ; but now it had been de-
termined to devote to the purpose one of the chapels of the
cathedrel. Ife (Mr. S. Wortley) rejoiced at the change;
and ho hoped that, at no distant petiod, monuments to
other distinguished men would be erected in subeediee.
tion to, hut still associated with, that of the Creat Cap.
tale. Among those none could be more fitting than a
monument, to Lord Raglan. and he hoped that the national
gratitude M °aid ere long do justice to the memory of one
who had sacrificed his life to the public service at an age
when he might base looked forward to many years of well-
earned repose. (Cheers ) In the first instance, applica-
tioi.s Lo furnish designs fur the Wellington Monument had
been made to four of the most eminent artists in this coon-
try---Mr. Bailey, Mr.iFoley,lMr. Gibson, and Baron Hero-
chetti. The two first complied with the request; but th
two last declined, on the ground that they did not take
Part, competitions of any kind, Baron Meensh
to eaccee i was only less paiu-
ful than to fail. Messrs. Bailey and Foley 'a designs were
not considered satisfactory, and they applied to the go-
vernment for more precise information as to what was
warted. Tbegoverement of the day, instead of answer
ing th e question, determined on a public competition.
Ho (Mr. Woitley) did not altogether regret that the com-
petition had taken place, but he must, at the same time,
express his opinion that such a mode of proceeding was
not only unfair to the profession, but absolutelyoruel, A

good model cost between 2004. and 301./. ; and its prepara-
tion often reduced a poor artist to the greatest embarass-
ment and distress. What would be thought of a sovereign
who, when ill, threw open his case to public competition,
and offered a fee to the physician who gave the best advice?
Or what would have been said if the Earl of Shrewsbury
had attempted to select counsel by open competition?
(Hear.) The fact was, artists felt that this mode of deal-
ing with them was an insult, because it was oue pursued with
respect to no other liberal profession. The Nelson Monu-
ment had been put up to competition—was that satisfac-
tory? On the contrary it was as conspicuous a failure as
could be found in any capital in Europe. (Hear.) Some
of the finest works in art had been produced by competi-
tion, in the sense of noble emulation. It was the rivalry
of Michael Angelo and Raffaelle that had produced the
Transfiguration and the Raising of Lazarus. The largest
amount he had heard named for a monument, independent
of a statue, was 10,0,;0/. ; and he should propose that the
remainder of the money should be spent in purchasing
models. Ho believed there was an unworthy jealousy of
architec's in the matter of this monument. His noble

friend had an advantage over those who had gone before
him in tha assistance of Mr. Cockerell, and it was of im-
portance in a work of this kind that the sister arts—archi-
tecture and sculpture—should go together. It was the vice
of artists of the present day that they confined themselves
to particular branches, instead of doing as the first artists
of Italy had done—making themselves acquainted with
every branch. He concurred with Lord Lansdowne that
this ought not to be treated as a departmental question.
He would leave the responsibility, therefore, not to any
department, but to the general government. He saw no
objection to leave the question to a jury of artists In
his resolution he embodied the proposition that the bast
way to create emulation would bo to select a number
of distinguish° I artists, and to pay them for
their trouble, and time, and talent, in preparing models.
With regard to extending the competition to foreign
artists, though he ehould have preferred to make
that competition as wide as possible, it was doubtful
whether, under all the circumstanc, sit would he necessary
to go beyond the limits of these kingdoms. They hart
plenty of money in hand to remunerate them, and if a
number of the most distinguished artists of the country
were selected, with the understanding that they were to
send in designs, for which, whether they were successful
or not, they would be paid, they would create a noble
emulation, and something would be produced worthy of
the country.

Mr. B. HOPE urged that it was desirable to have
adopted the principle of competition in this matter; at
the same time that system of unlimited competition often
led to unsatisfactory results, and be gave several amusing
illustrations of the results of the system. But in these
days much must be hazarded to obtain much, and efforts
should be made to induce our great artists to compete for
national objects. Without analysing the scheme of his
noble friend he thought it was such an one as called for the
modal° 1 ctlnsure implied in the motion of his right hon.
friend. Why should action be taken on this subject now
at this late period of the session, and why .theel I Lis nettle
f. Ihe cell.; Ito ed,lit the questionable and expensive
course of a third competition I The design of Mr. Stephens
which hid been chosen, though rough in execution, bore
marks of genius, and he was one of those artists that ought
to be encouraged ; besides which he was a prizeman,
though not the first. Under all the circumstances it
seemed to him that his noble friend had come to a wise
decision, and he would urge on his right hon. friend not
to press his motion ; and he trusted that the Chief Com-
missioner of Works would be able to produce such a monu-
ment to the Duke of Wellington as after ages might ap-
prove.
Mr. CONINGHAM said ho was at a loss to know what
were the views of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Wort-
ley). The right hon. gentleman had in the first place
expressed admiration of the plan for the monument which
had been adopted ; then he objected to competition for
such purposes; and ho concluded by proposing to throw
the designs open to competition.
Mr. S. WORTLEY—OnIy to a limited number of com-
petitors.
Mr. CONINGHAM had understood the right hon.
gentleman to propose a further competition. The monu-
ment selected was the work of a young artist, but it exhi-
bited great ingenuity of design and great vigour of execution.
It w.s at first proposed to place it in one of the arches of
St. Paul's, but the site had now been changed to the Con-
sistory Court ; but as the Cousistory Court was of the
same height as the arches, it would be equally well adapted
for that position. He congratulated the noble lord on the
selection ho had made, and he hoped that the right hon.
gentleman would not press his motion.
Lord J. MANNERS had heard with much gratification
the views which had been expressed by hon. gentlemen
whose opinions were far better entitled to weight than his
own upon questions of art. He thought that, after the ob-
servations of the hon. member for Alaidstone (Mr. Hope),
and the hon. member/ for Brighton (Mr. Ooningham), his
right hon. friend the member for Bute (Mr. S. Wortley)
must be satisfied there were gentlemen who were at least

as competent as himself to form a judgment on this subject,
who approved the course adopted by Her Majesty's Govern-
ment. He was, however, happy to find that upon several
important points he agreed with his right hon. friend, and
that they only had the misfortune to differ upon matters of
minor importance. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Wort-
ley) had said that ho th nal the selection of a site was
most fortunate; that, so far as the prize designs were con-
cerned, he conceived that the Government had chosen the
best—and that they had taken the most valuable advice
they could obtain. He (Lord J. Manners) put it to the
houso whether they would now take the matter out of the
hands—feeble as he admitted they were—of those who
were responsible for its conduct, and elect themselves into
a committee of taste to upset all the arrangements which
hid been made, and to defer for an indefi site period the
erection of a national monument to the Duke of Welling-
ton. He had the misfortune to differ with his right hon.
friend the member for Bute on some minor points. The
right hon. gentleman admitted that out of the 83 designs
submitted to competition the best had been selected, but
he said that the terms on which competition was invited
were such as could give the competitors no reasonable hope
that any one of them would be selected. He (Lord J.
Manners) certainly did not put the same construction upon
the terms of the notice, which were as fol ows :
"The Commissioners of her Majesty's Works and Pub-
lic Buildings give ❑otice that it is the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to erect a monument in St. Paul's
Cathedral, London, to the memory of the late Duke of
Wellington, and that they are prepared to receive designs
for the same from artists of all countries."
His right hon. friend might, however, rely upon the con-
cluding paragraph of the notice :
"If, however, the artist to whom the highest premium
may be awarded shall be employe 1 to execute his design he
will not be entitled to receive any premium."
His right hon. friend had put upon this sentence the inter-
pretation of a lawyer, bat he (Lord J. Manners) believed
its meaning was that if any artist who had not received
the highest prize was selected he would be entitled to
a premium in addition to the prize for the model. He
said that a great country had no rght to invite the
artists of all the world to compete unless they were resolved
that that competition should lead to some substantial re-
sult, always provided that among the designs sent in there
was one or more which were worthy of adoption. (Hear.)
It all turned upon that question. Now, who was to decide
this point? Was his right hon. friend or anybody else in
this house to say that out of the 83 designs sent in not one
was worthy of being executed? [Lord Eicho—" The judges
said so."] They said no such thing. They did not, indeed,
declare that any one of the designs was worthy of erection;
but though they left this point in the dark, they added :
" We cannot at the same time forbear suggesting that
before any design is finally adopted by the Government, it
would be desirable, considering the peculiarity of the situa-
tion contemplated, and that it essentially differs from that
of all the other monuments now existing in the cathedral,
the opinion of some experienced artists should be called
for, who would be better judges of the local effect than we
consider ourselves to be ; more especially as Mr. Cockerell,
the only one of the appointed judges professionally con-
nected with the arts, though we have derived from him
valuable assistance and information in the progress of the
examination, has declined on that account taking a part
in the ultimate decision."

It was quite clear that this, the only recommendation
made, authorised the consideration of the local effect which
twhoatti would du eGporvodertni cme de nbe y
sthhe ou
Idd e si gselected,
confer
n with and
those
es es
parsons
ed
most competent to give advice before arriving at a final
decision. Now, this was exactly the course he had taken.
In the first instance he had satisfied his own mind, as well
as he could, that some one design was worthy of adoption,
and having done so he invited the gentleman to whom re-
ference had been made in terms of such deserved commen-
dation carefully to examine the prize designs. He (Lord
J. Manners) had not indicated the bias of his own mind,
but Mr. Penrose informed him that design No. 18, which
he had previously selected, was the one which, in his
opinion, best suited the locality, and was most deserving of
erection. He thought he should have grossly neglected his
duty if he had not availed himself of Mr. Penrose's as-
sistance ; and if his right hen. friend meant to say that he
had any previous knowledge of this gentleman he laboured
under a cotnplete mistake, His (Lord J. Manners') know-
ledge of Mr. Penrose was, if he might use the term, purely
professional; but he felt that the recommendation of the
judges was a sound one, and he knew he could not act upon
it in a more satisfactory manner than by calling for the
valuable advice on which he had acted. Now, he was au-
thorised by Mr. Penrose to say that he should view it as a
great misfortune if this house were in any way to put a
stop to the proceedings instituted with respect to this mo-
nument. He put it to the house, therefore, after all that
had transpired, considering, as his right hon. friend had
pointed out, that six years had elapsed, and that yet no
monument had been erected, whether they would take the
course of throwing the whole mat ter into inextricable con-
fusion by adopting the proposal now made. The right hon.
gentleman had to a certain extent sketched the proceedings
which had taken place, and ho would venture to describe
the steps by which they had arrived so slowly and unsatis-
factorily at their present position. In 18;4 the then First
Commissioner of Works invited a limited competition for
this monument., and selected four sculptors of undoubted
eminence—Mr. Bailey, Mr. Foley, Baron Marochetti, and
Mr. Gibson. Of these gentlemen two declined to enter into
the competition, and Baron Marochetti returned this
answer to Sir William Molesworth :
"I am flatter3d that my name has been placed on the
list of sculptors from whom it has been proposed to select
one to execute the monument to the Duke of Wellington
in St. Paul's Cathedral. I hasten to express to you my
thinks for the honour thus con':erred upon me, but I must
decline to engage in a competition in which success would
be only less painful than failure. If, however, the proposed
competition should not produce the desired r2sult, and if
in such an event I should be judged worthy of employment
on the work, I should with pride bestow on it the utmost
efforts of my art, no less on account of the man who is to
be commemorated, than of the place the monument is to
occupy."

Mr. Gibson, writing frotn Rowe, sent an answer much
more curt in its terms:—

In communication
o‘ry oh fa
vhei s theorai
Grace
oee atmshueer
respecting
late
acknowledge
pe
eltui
nicgoa f Invioenitinhi
ighetonontno.
to
or
Itohbf
eeyour-
say that I am always ready to undertake any work of im•
portance for my country, but decline to send designs in
competition."
Did his tight hon. friend nropoie to ask those two eminent
men again to compute? [Hr. S. Wortley.--" Not to coin-
pete."] Then, in the name of common grilse, what were
they to do ? [Hr. S. Wortley.—" To emula e."] To emu-
late ! Well, he was a plain man, and could not apprehend
these nice distinctions, nor did he think the sculptors
would be less puzzled by them than he was. (Hear ) Did
his right hon. friend mean to say that the offer of 3') 1
weul;l 1.1 Li; bAweeu cAupetition
and emulation ? He (Lord J. Mann re) did not think so
badly of those eminent sculptors as to imajt.e that the
certainty of a small sum of money would induce them to
enter into a competition which the invitation of the Go-
vernment had not induced them to enter. But Mr. Bailey
and .111. Foley, both sculptors of groat eminent.', did not
decline this invitation They entered into the limited
competition proposed, but what was the result? The
Goveinment of the day, no doubt rjghtly, decided that
neither of their deeigue was worthy of being executed,

Now, in the office of the First Commissioner of Works was
a most valuable and important reply from the pen of Mr.
Bailey to the letter which announced this decision to him.
Mr. Bailey pointed out all the evils which must result to
art if, when a limited competition wee entered upon, none
of the designs sent in were selected for execution. He
(Lord J. Manners) wished he had found it possible to
present to the house prior to this debate Mr. Bailey's let-
ter and other papers relating to this subject, but as they
wore rather in the nature of private letters than of pub-
lic papers, he hardly felt justified in so doing. The whole
tone and tenour of Mr. Bailey's communication, how.
ever, were such as would make him very reluctant toin-
vite any limited competition without a clear decision
beforehand that, whatever might be merits of the designs
sent in, one or the other should be selected. (Hoar, hear.)
Mr. Bailey pointed out that by inviting artists to enter
into such a competition, and then throwing their designs
over and instiiuting an unlimited competition, you gave to
the second competitors the inestimable advantage of pilfer-
ing ideas from those who had first sent in designs. (Hear.)
But now apply the objection taken with so much force by
Mr. Bailey in a case where only two designs were in ques-
tion to this new proposal of a second limited competition
after no less than 83 designs had been submitted for com-
petition. (Hear.) Was it not clear that those whose de-
signs had thus stood the test of public criticism might
fairly say, " You have no right now to hand over the com-
petition to a limited number of gentlemen, selected by the
favouritism of the Government of the day, when there is
a possibility that they may pick here and there from the
d signe which have cost us so much thought, labour, time,
and money, expended by some of the poorest and most
struggling artists in the world ?" He had heard that sen-
tence of the speech of the right hon. gentleman with the
greatest pleasure. It was just, and be asked the House of
Commons to act in accordance with it. His right hon.
friend pointed out what these struggling artists were called
upon to do—what sacrifices of time, labour, and money
were ontaile 1 upon them ; and he asked that, in return,
the House of Commons should not, without the most
weighty considerations, set aside their designs. He asked
his right hon. friend whether he thought he had assigned
any satisfactory reason for departing on this occasion from
what ought to be the general rule? They had not heard
his right hon. friend say that he was himself of opinion
that the design which had been selected was unworthy of
being completed. The right hon. gentleman told them
that he had privately canvassed all the judges, and that
they had all told him they signed their report without in-
tending to have their approbation of any one of the
designs acted upon. All he could say was, that if
such were the case, it was the duty of the
judges to have made that clear before all the world.
(Hear, hear.) He could find no such declaration in their
report. On the contrary, after reading the report with the
most minute care he could bestow, he had arrived at the
opposite conclusion. In private the judges had not told
him anything of the sort, and he thought the House of
Commons would do well not to act upon thes- privalo r
corrimendr4inng, whi-h those wbo tin di thew declined to
pact. (Hear.) As he believed the report of the
judges, he felt fully justified in the course which he had
taken ; and the more he gathered the opinions of those
who were able to speak with authority upon the subject,
the more he was fortified in the decision at which he had
arrived. He believed that the opinion which he had al-
ready quoted of Mr. Penrose was shared by men in the
highest position in artistic circles. He believed that if
the Home of Commons did not now interfere her Ma-
jesty's Government would be able at no distant period to
afford the gratification to the people of this country of see-
ing, in the noblest site which St. Paul's Cathedral pre-
sented, a monument erected worthy alike of the great man
whom it commemorated and the budding in which it was
placed. (Cheers.) But if at the fag end of the session, in
a house so thin as that which he was now ee'dreseing, his
light hon. friend induced the House of Commons to pass
this resolution, it would paralyse the hands of the Execu-
tive and of the artists as well, and trace over again the un-
fortunate history of so many of the public monuments of
England. (Hear, hear.) The Government would be re-
luctant, under those circumstances, to take upon them-
selves any responsibility in those thorny matters of art, and
artists would be disgusted at the manner in which they
were treated in being asked to enter again into a limited
competition without any certainty that anyone of the com-
petitors would be employed. They had been invited to a
limited eompetition with no result ; they had been invited
to an unlimited competition with worse than no result;
and it was proposed to invite them to a second limited
competition with no certain prospect—he would say, with
no hope—of any fortunate result. His right hen, friend
indulged in a dream if he supposed the Primo Minis-
ter, burdene 1 as he was with affairs of state, would under-
take to go from studio to studio, attended by a jury of
artists, all differing in opinion, all anxious to carry out
their own views, and some very possibly biassed by per-
sonal considerations in favour of one or other of the com-
peting sculptors. The Prime Minister must from necessity
devolve the responsibility upon the Minister whose duty
it was, from the nature of his office, to make the selection
in a case of this.kind ; and he trusted and almost be-
lieved his right hon. friend, whose whole speech was
characterised with so much kindness and courtesy to him-
self, did not intend to press his motion to a division. He
thought the house would be ill-advised if they passed the
resolution, and he entreated them not to agree to it, but to
leave the matter in the hands of the responsible Ministers
of the Crown, who, after two competitions, felt themselves
in a position to arrive at a final decision, which they be-
lieved would be satisfactory to the country. (He r, hear.)
His hon. friend t;ie member for Brighton had alluded to
the expediency of placing on the proposed site a model of
tho full size of the monument. The proposal was most
admirable, and should he be intrusted with the future
prosecution of the task it was his intention to propose to
Mr. Stephens that a model of that character should be
erected in the Consistory Chapel, so that before anything,
was finally decided those who took au interest iu the ques-
tion might have an opportunity of examining it. If the
result of that exhibition should be to show that Mr.
Stephens was not competent to execute the chief figure of
the design, it was the wish of Mr. Stephens that Her
Majesty's Government should only leave to him the execu-
cntion of the design and appoint some other artist to exe-
cute the figure. Frankly, he had no fear himself that a man
of genius, as Mr. Stephens had shown himself to be, would
fail in that earticular; but, in justice to the modesty and
good feeling of a young and rising artist, he mentioned that
Mr. Stephens had expressed no objection to the proposal, and
that it met with his entire approbation. (Hear) If the
House thought him unworthy of the position in which
Her Majesty had been pleased to place him he should
of course bow to their decision ; but he thought he had
sh swn that the tour: e which he had adopted was consistent
with the views of those who had the best means of forming
a sound opinion. He was satisfied himself that if no inter-
ference now took place, and if the Government were per-
mitted to carry out those intentions which they had indi-
cated, the result would be success; but if, on the other
hand, impediments were thrown in the way, there would
be interminable delay, constant bickerings, and their suc-
eessors would say there had been a complete mistake in
the management of that which ought to be one of the
greatest monuments of a great nation (Cheers.)
Mr. CO WPER said, the reasons assigned by Lord John
Manners for the course he had taken were not satisfac-
tory to his mind. When competition was invited pre-
ference should be given to the most. successful. The monu-
ment now to be erected was not that competed for; if de-
signs were c died for adapted to the new site, a far better
would be obtained than the one chosen.

Mr. STIRLING was not convinced by the arguments a.
Mr. Wortley, and should vote against the motion.
Lord ELCHO said the question they had to consider was
not so much a question of art as a question of common sense.
He could not agree in the opinion teat his noble friend had

adopted the wisest course in reference to this monument.
Lord Lansdowne had stated in the House of Lords that none

of the models possessed such commanding merit as to win
the decided approbation of the judges, and that he believed
was the opinion of the public. (Hear.) Why then should
they be compelled to adopt any one of these models ? The
competition was a signal failure. His noble friend con-
demned his own scheme, for he did not propose to give the
execution of the work to the first prizeman, but to the
sixth, and not him alone, but to him and two others,
namely, Mr. Penrose and Mr. Marshall, There was an
old saying, that too much cooking -poiled the broth,
and he was afraid that this might be the result in the
present instance. He believed the truth to be that
his noble friend was fond of a quiet life, and that for
that reason he gave to three persons instead of one the
execution of this monument. He denied that they
were bound in spirit, or in letter, or in honour, to accept
any of the designs submitted to public exhibition. (Hear,
hear.) He was in favour of the principle of competition,
and it was because ho was in favour of competition that he
thought the Government acted on a bad principle in this
matter. The object was to erect a suitable monument to
the memory of the Duke of Wellington. He did not think
the Government adopted the bast course to secure that
object. 119 was afraid that the result might be the erec-
tion of a monster monument, such as that in Hyde Park.
Sir B. HALL said, when he held the office of FiretCom-
ritissioner of Works, he suggested to the Government that
they should have recourse to unlimited competition with
regard to the monument proposed to be model to the
memory of the Duke of Wellington. There had previously
been a limited competition. as stated by his hon. friend
(Hr. Wortley), under which Mr. Foley and Mr Bailey had
sent in designs which were not deemed worthy of adoption
by the Government. Then it was that he (Sir B. Hall)
proposed to resort to unlimited competition ; and, looking
at the object in view, and the large sum of money that
was to be expended upon it, he thought that the best prin-
ciple on which the house or the Government could act.
(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been male to the terms of
the competition issued from the Office of Works, and to
their being strongly guarded. They were peculiarly
guarded, because he felt, where the competition was Were-
lutely unlimited, it might be possible in a case of this kind
that persons might be capable of sending in very pretty
designs, calculated to strike the eye, but who might be
incapable of carrying out those designs in marble or any
other material which might be decided upon. (Hear,
hear-) The suggestion he had made resulted in the ex-
hibition of designs which were seen in Westminster-hall.
They had two exhibitions of designs there, and ho never
saw so groat a contrast as that between the designs
exhibited for the public offices and those for the Wel.
liugton nonument. (Hear, hear ) He admitted that the
exhibition of designs for the Wellington Monument
was a failure. That opinion was confirmed by the
judges, and, ho believed, by the public at large. (Hear.)
In a competition of that nature he thought it was the duty
of the Government to give the execution of the design to
one of the successful competitors, provided—and ho wished
that to lee understood—there was the conviction on the
pert of those who had to decide, that the talent displayed
in the competition and the known practical experience of
the competitors, afforded to the public a sufficient security
for the successful and proper execution of the work in the
event of its being entrusted to any one of them. With re-
gard to the site, he begged to remind the house that at first
the only site that could be procured was under . ne of the
arches. Since that time the Consistory Court had become
vacant, and it had been placed at the disposal of the noble
lord. Now, it had struck him very forcibly that the de-
sign which had been prepared for one part of the building
could not with any propriety be put up in another part of
the building for which it was in no way adapted. (Hear.)
He believed it would be extremely difficult so to alter the
design as to make it suitable for the Consistory Court.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord had stated that before any-
thing noes done he would have the model exhibited ; he
hoped that in the meantime he wou:d reconsider the whole
euhj,et. With that understanding ho thought they should
leave the responsibility with the Government. He knew
the extreme difficulties which the noble ler h. -1 to undergo
„eel Lee wenht be the last man to do
anything to increase those difficulties. He entreated him,
however, to comider fully this subject, and if he should
see that the model as now designed really could not be put
into the chapel with effect, then let him communicate
either with the successful competitors or with other artists,
se that the monument might be put up as speedily as pos-
sible. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. MI LNES was afraid they must come to the con.
elusion that; the competition for the best design for this
monument was a failure, and he thought they should
consider what was best to be done outside that competition,