The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-31 00:00:00

THE COST:OF THE COLONIES.

In reply to Mr. ADDERLEY and Mr. MAGUIRE,
Mr. S. HERBERT said, with regard to the request made
by his hOn: friend.:opposite (Mr. iidderley) who wished to
see a copy of the report of the committee appointed in re-
ference to the expense of the colonies, as a general rule there
was an objection to publish the report of departmental
committees, but it was also true that when the hon. mem
ber brought the question forward he (Mr. S. Herbert)
stated that he disapproved of the capriciousness with which
these payments were distributed, and that the committee
were pursuing an inquiry. He had no objection whatever
to this report being -.produced. It was a very able docu-
ment, and two of the members of the committee had made
reports in an opposite sense. With regard to the question
of the hon. member for Dungannon, the case was certainly
one of charity, .but.not of justice. He believed he could not
overrate their destitute condition. They entered the Tur-
kish service most of them in the division known as the
Coisacks of the Sultan, and were subsequently taken into
British It was a question simply of contract. The
(English-Government, through its agents, engaged a cer-
tain 'number of men. Those persons had no bounty, but
they were allowed a certain sum to purchase an outfit on
,their arrival at Constantinople.- These persons, most of
them, joined their regiments under different circum-
stances ; some 'Were deserters, and some were prisoners
taken of BOtaarsund. Their contract was, that the officers
were to-receive the pay of France, and the men were to re •

ceive the ply of the Turkish privates. They went out,
and of the expiration of the service they were
given, in addition, a certain gratuity ; those who re-
mained in Turkey were paid a certain sum and dismissed.
Those who came to England received a further sum, and
until last autumn they made no complaint whatever. Their
dissatisfaction.was caused by finding that persons enlisted
at a distance.had received more, on account of the greater
expense they would be put to in travelling home. "With
regard to the officer the hon. gentleman had referred to, he
believe 4 that he had been dismissed for misconduct.
SWITZERLAND AND FRANCE.

Sir:ll,l7tEEL,—i rise, Sir, to call the attention of the
House to ihe subject of which I have given notice, and I
trust that, under.the circumstances, the house will kindly
bear with ?me in the statement lam about to make. Nay
more, I. bOieve the house.will concur with me in thinking
that; loOking at the embarrassed state of foreign affairs at
this moment, it is desirable before we adjourn for the Easter
vacation that some expression of opinion should be made
with reference:to the position of Switzerland—(hear)—and
that we should have an opportunity of considering and
weighing the immense and immediate danger with which
the neiltrality• and independence of that country are now
threatdned -by the annexation of Savoy to France. My
object in rising to-night is, I may say, to endeavour
to save. Switzerland by a generous expression of
sympathy., on 'the part of this house and this nation,
for I •de think that she is greatly menaced
by the jaosition. of affairs in her immediate neighbourhood.
Individukily I own I take a lively and very natural interest
in the weltare Of that country, having lived there for seve-
ral years very impressionable period of my life. (A
laugh.) . But I put that on one side. I come here as an
Englishinan, in the free Parliament of a free people, to
advocate the principles, of liberty wherever it may, concern-
this country, and to maintain those principles wherever
imperilled- (hear, hear)—and I shall be satisfied if, when
I resume my seat, I shall have contributed, in however
humble a degree, to elicit a discussion that may serve the
cause of that country whose rights are now imminently en-
dangered? :Ae the outset I must say that the repeated in-
- sinnittions wf thq , hon. member for Birmingham against
thole whet have advocated, the interests of Europe in oppo-
sition 1,0 f., tf e.aga*ressive, policy of France are most un-
founded..; That-hon. gentleman is very severe in his cri-
. tici4b. f fgpsi 416 venture to differ from him on political
questions.: •We imoNV the candour of his. censures; but I
am lon‘rfiletdl.lrriost every member of this house dissents
front t
.un,English policy which the hon. gentleman

woutd retotoniend•her Majesty's Government to pursue at
•0• • •
(Cheers.) That hon. member repudiates the
opinion of my:hon. friend the member for Bridgewater, as
well qs,those which I and abler members of this house have
expro§aediou several recent occasions on this guestion. But,
mark:you; tho-se opinions are now the opinions of her Ma •
jestrs:Vovetriment, (Hear, hear.) The hon. memberfor
Bittohigh,ain the other night said he repudiated those
vie because he represented a great English constituency;

but, remember, we,all of us form the collective representa-
tion of the entire constituent body in this country; and I
say the'hon. gentleman, in disowning our views and the
views of hgr Majesty's Government, disowns the sentiments
of nine-tenthii of. the town• which has sent him here.
(Cheers.) That,.however, is the hon. member's own affair,
and he had better look to it. (A laugh.) I venture to tell
him that if the new Reform Bill passes he will find himself

very much in the position of the right hon. member far
Ashton, the late member for Manchester. (Laughter.) But
when the hon. gentleman endeavours to persuade us that
we have no direct interest in this great question, I believe
he grossly misrepresents the general feeling of this coun-
try, and egregiously undervalues the depth of that feeling.
(Cheers.) I wish also now to state that lam certainly not
actuated by any unfriendly feeling towards her Majesty's
Gorrnment. I only desire, as was said the other night by
my hon. friend the member for Horsham, to strengthen
their hands in the present emergency, and to see them pur-
suing a policy worthy of this country and the grave respon-
' sibilities under which they are placed. They have shown
much hesitation on several occasions in answering questions
relatirig to foreign affairs; but I believe they could lose no-
-14 thing by a generally diffused knowledge of what their policy
1` has been within the last few weeks. Certainly, I think the
opinions expressed the other night by the noble lord the Fe-
reign Secretary havo had a very great effect in this country.
(Cheers.) Taliae Dp2z4icrils AgveAmmcsisurably enhanced the
confidence of the nation in the straightforward course which

that lord will unquestionabli take in the conduct of
.theAe aWairs. But why not let us know what has been the
answer made to M. Thouvenel ? It Was promised to be laid
on the taliTe the other day ; but we have never seen it ? It
is said in the streets that it is very spirited. Let us see, then.
what your spirited answer is. Observe the difficulty in which

members of the present Government are placed by not in-
forming the,-country what their policy has been- When in
1851 Mr. Cobden proposed a vote of censure on the Govern-
ment, I think his expression was that their foreign policy
had'been " turbulent and aggressive." They were turned
out of offic© In conseqUence. The year following Mr. M.
Gibpon, who'was member for,Manchester then-L-.(a laugh)
—moved another vote of censure against the*GoVerninent
for not having been, as he called it, sufficiently prompt in
"vindicating our nati,,nal honour. That is to. say, in 18.57
the Government were too turbulent ; and in 1858 they were
not tulenl enough. (Laughter.) All thia comes of the
coun*not knowing what your policy N. But the word-.
ingot 111 r. Gibson's. memorable motion is really worth se-
callin Ohen we are considering the Government's hesita-
tion to 'show us their despatch. -The then.mereber for Man-
chester —(a:laugh)—declared:—" This house regrets that
her Majesty's Government have, not felt it their duty to
make some reply to an important despatch received from
the Fr.lich Government on Jan. 23, 1858." (Hear, hear.)
Here we are in almost the same position. The right hon.
member for Ashton, 'sitting on his present comfortable
bench, rLay, perhaps, not like to takd the matter up now.
(Lau ;titer.) But this important despatch has not been pro-
duced, and we are ignorant of its content:. I dare say it is
di spirited," if it accordi with the tone used the other night
i.by the noble Foreign Secretary. But of this there can be
rag doubt, that a wanton outrage, 'fraught with the
rawest consequences to the peace and happiness of
rt. stions, ,has just been offered to the Powers of
Ti trope and the principles of justice. (Cheers.) With-
in t he last three days I think that last act has been signed,
the effect of which must be, unless this country and the
rest of Europe protest against it, to subvert the indepen-
dances of Switzerland. What have been the assurances of
Friiiice, :all this time ? We all recollect the famous decla-
ration, " L'Empire, e'est paix ! " The French Go-
ver Tun ent had over and over again solemnly declared
that i -aitried at no personal objects—that it sought
%.* man. eptoire.. •

', ` ~ ^.sue rl6~~.

Wca

wit Log

- is,
no territorial aggrandisement. In his proclaim son sued
at Milan the Emperor told the people of Lonalbans, Fos
4
ennemis, qui sent les miens, out tente de dimirmer la sym-
pathie universelle qu'il y avait en Europe pour V etre cause,
en faisant croire que je ne faisais la guerre qut par ambi-
tion personnelle, ou pour aggrandir le terri toire de la
_France." In his speech from the throne, on opening his
Chambers, on the Ist of March, the Emperor said, "
Ls
France ne menace personne ;" and then went on. 'to avow his
hope, by the expansion of the resources Or 'Fra nce and by
the extension of liberty, "to console and real, sure huma-
nity." And this is the way in which ha " consoles and re-
assures humanity." (Cheers and a laugh.) I think we
have too long and too credulously listened to his good as-
surances ; that we have too ingenuously accepted the good
faith of his intentions. (Hear, hear.) Whatever may be
the consequences—and grave, I fear, they may be—of the
present complications, certainly, as far as jsconsistent with
the honour of this country, peace must be maintained.
The house, I am sure, would be sorry to urge her Majesty's
Government to adopt a policy involving war, and all those
painful concomitants of war with which, alas I too many of
us are familiar. But whether it be necessary by peace, or
by a firm and vigorous attitude to encounter a policy on the
part of France which is producing distrust tending to war,
I think we all ought, as far as possible, consistently with
peace, to strengthen the hands of the Imperial Government,
which is responsible to Parliament for the safety of our in-
terests and the maintenance of cur honour, (Hear.) Nay, I
go further than the hon. member for Birmingham went the
other night, and say that, whatever may be the particular
interest of Russia, of Austria, of Germany, or even of Swit-
zerland, I should be very sorry to see the Government of
England adopting a policy calculated to plunge us into a
war for DO object of general interest. But is there no prin-
ciple of common interest affecting this country at stake in
what is now going on ? I believe there is. (Hear.) Many
hon. gentlemen, here and out of doors, think her Majesty's
Government have connived in some way or other at the
aggression and annexation now being pursued by France. I
do not concur in that suspicion, and I have said so from the
beginning. Appearances have been strongly against them,
'I admit. (Rear, hear.) I think they have carried forbear-
ance to its extreme limits. But I believe they have been
grossly deceived. ' In fact, they have confessed as much
themselves. But, mark you, they have been deceived by a
Power whose good faith and good intentions they were
bound to accept after the repeated assurances they had re-
ceived. (Hear, hear.) I ask the house to observe the po-
sition in which Europe is now placed. Is it likely that the
Emperor, having rejected all the friendly remonstrances of
this country and of others, having by his desperate policy
plunged France into a system of aggrandizement and terri-
torial aggression, will now stop and be satisfied with what
he has obtained, even if he be able to curb the further pro-
gress of the revolutionary—for it is revolutionary—(hear,
hear)—policy which ho is pursuing ? It is the revolutionary
policy of 1848, which was adopted by M. de Lamartine and
by M. Louis Blanc, and I ask you, as we know that ce
n'est que le premier pas qui couts, whether it is not most
probable that, having tasted the pleasure of ambition, and
witnessed "the pride, pomp, and circumstance of glorious
war," the Emperor will take the first opportunity of pro-
ceeding to some conquest which will more materially affect
the interests of Europe. If that be so, we have at this mo-
ment the great and important duty to perform ofendeavour-
tug, with the assistance of the rest of Europe, to check his
progress. What is the feeling of Europe at this moment;?
Does Europe feel with us ? The hon. member for Birming-
ham thinks that it does not. The other night he said, to
my astonishment, " Russia takes no interest in this miser-
able question." The hon. member for Birmingham calls
that " a miserable question" which concerns the liberties
of half a million of people. (Opposition cheers.) He said.
" Does Russia take an interest, does Austria take an in-
' terest in it ? Austria won't join you in a quarrel about
Savoy or Switzerland when not one word has been said
about her own dismemberment." He must not think that
every Power has that feeling of jealousy and nasty
spitefulness—(a laugh)—and that Austria, although she
has suffered, will not come forward in the interest of the rest
of Europe, to endeavour to vindicate the right, and to de-
fend the principles which she has herself sworn to adopt.
The hon gentleman says that you can't get up any interest
in the question in this country. In answer to that assertion
I may appeal to the state of the house at this moment, I may
appeal to this crowded assembly, called together by no
words of mine, but by an active and determined interest in
the welfare of Switzerland. (Hear, hear.) Yet the hip.
gentleman says that you can't get up an interest on is
subject, adding that there is some little attention paid to it
by one newspaper, but that it is a newspaper notorious for
a mixture of piety and ruffianism. (Laughter.) That is the
way in which the hon. member for Birmingham speaks of a
free press. (Cheers.) He says that day after day that news-
paper endeavours to stir up the passions of the people by
vituperations—l am referring to what I have read in the
newspapers
The SPEAKER—I must request the hon. baronet not
to refer in detail to a past debate.
Sir R. PEEL—Of course I bow with submission to the
ohair. I was merely alluding to what I read had taken
place. One thing I recollect having seen in the newspapers,
and that was, that it was insinuated that the guilty authors
of these vituperations were princes of the House of Orleans.
Now,l do think that that was a most unjust and ungenerous
imputation for any man to cast linen a family like the House
of Orleans. (Cheers.) The princes of that family, weighed
down as they are by the bitterest visitation with which Pro-
vidence could afflict a family, have, during all the time that
they have resided in this country, conducted themselves with
a nobility of character—(general cheering)—and more than a
nobility of character—with a dignity of demeanour which
has gained for them the sympathies of every one—(renewed
cheering)—except the hon. member for Birmingham, who,
coupling them with the Savoyards, is so ready to cry down
and afflict them. I only hope that the hon. gentleman him-
self may never be placed in such a position as to learn what
it is to be deprived of his home and of the country of his
birth. (Hear, and a slight laugh.) Ido not mean to say he
is ever likely to become a sovereign. (Much laughter.) Lot
me now call back the attention of the house to the inquiry,
" Is the feeling of Europe opposed to the consideration of
this question ?" Russia, they say, is cool about it. Wily,
Russia is at this moment occupied with a great question of
domestic policy, and of course she is more ready to turn her
attention to that than to war. But take Prussia. ,Take
Prussia with her well organised army and her loyal people;
what are the feelings of Prussia ? Were they not nobly ex-
pressed in that despatch of Baron Schleinitz which was
quoted the other night? I have not it by me, but it was a
generous and noble expression of feeling on the part of that
country. Recollect that that is a country which has never
forgotten, and I hope never will forget, the injustice and in-
dignities which were heaped upon it by the first Napoleon,
until the genius of the Duke of Wellington and the sword
of Blucher vindicated its national honour. The Prussians
must feel very deeply when they are told that the Rhine is
threatened now. Don't tell me that the whole of Europe is
perfectly indifferent to what may take place. Above all,
don't tell me that Prussia, with its devoted army and its
loyal people, is contented to assent to the aggressions of
France. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, I come to Austria. They.
say Austria won't make any move with regard to Switzer-
land because nothing was said when her own territory was
dismembered. It is true that Austria has had to suffer a
very heavy calamity, but I believe that any one who studied
the campaign in Italy will admit that nothing could have
been more heroic than the way in which the Austrian sol-
diess fought throughout that campaign. Of course our sym-
pathies were with the Italians—(hear, hear)—but at the
same time we admired the way in which the Austrians
fought under the direction of men who were unequal to the
emergency. The Austrian army showed itself worthy to
be the army of a great empire, and I am satisfied that if it
had been better organised it would have contended with
greater success even against the forces of France. But what
is the condition of Austria at this moment ? There are two
causes which prevent Austria from taking any active inte-
rest in this question, religious discord and financial em-
barrassment. Any one who has watched the affairs of Aus-
tria will know that ever since 1855, when the concordat
with Rome-was eunclutl-e3, there has been much religious
dissension in that country. The Austrian empire contains
a population of 35,000,000, of whom 3,000;000 are Protest-
ants, and they conceive that their religious feelings and
religious rights have been very much compromised by the
concordat. That is an element of discord against which it
is most difficult for any power to contend ; but there is an-
other embarrassment, which is still more important, because
it concerns the supply of the sinews of war. Every one
knows that Austria is at this moment labouring under the
greatest possible burden of financial difficulty. I believe
that I am correct in saying that within the last 11 years
the public debt of that country has increased 150 per cent.,
andat this moment it amounts to more than eight times the
annual revenue. Nay, to show the difficulty which Austria
has in raising money, I believe that the last loan she attempted
to negotiate failed upon every bourse in Europe. I ask you,
then, is it likely that she should take any active part in as-
sisting us to arrest the a7gressions of France ? But this I
will say, that I believe her sympathies, that I believe the
sympathies of Germany, are entirely in our favour. Let us
see for a moment how it is that all these difficulties have
fallen upon Switzerland. Just consider for one moment
what it is that presses down that country. It is this un-
happy policy of France. I, in common with everybody else
ie. this country, hoped that France was acting a noble part
towards Italy, that she was acting disinterestedly, that :he
was really desirous to free that country; but there has been
this arriere pense'e all through her transactions. Front the
very beginning she has been seeking to -obtain what she
calls no territoire de tres pcu d' (Vendue, but what is both
politically and strategically of great importance to Europe.
France has always been desirous to obtain possession of
that. Her expression was that she wanted nothing that need
alarm Europe, nothing but un territoire de tres pen, cr eten-
due; and that neither by military operations nor by insur-
rection. would she seek to acquire these provinces. These
are the provinces which abut upon Switzerland, which are
absolutely essential to the salvation of that country, and
which for 230 years have been considered absolutely neces-
sary to its welfare. Savoy un tere itoire de tres peu d' etendue!
Why, sir, this is the territory that in 1814 Lord Castle-
reagh and Capo d'lstria were both determined that France
should
abuts unpont have.
swi
desiredFnnin
order to
that have
s h h bi Iga
hi Et
gainwhich
footing upon the Lake of Geneva. Russia and England, re-