The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-22 00:00:00

any reasonable time.
Mr. BLACKBURN submitted that a period should
be fixed fur its repayment. Let i.he committee fix it at ,
five years. That would be a reasonable
Tee amendment was then agreed to.
Mr. ALCOCK. moved, as an amendment, in clause 1, 1
line 2, after 1851," to leave out "two pence," in line
4, and insert " all sums of money which have been paid
by the Treasury on account of the Kensington Gore
Estate, or any disbursement therewith, together with a
moiety of the net rents received by the commissioners."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the amendment. If carried, it would destroy the ar-
rangement proposed.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
Mr. BLACKBURN then moved, as an amendment,
that the commissioners should pay 5 per cent. interest
on the purchase money from the pa,•sinv of the act.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected
to the amendment as unfair towards the commissioners.
Mr. WILSON suggested that it would be better to
make the commissioners continue to pay up half the rents 1
of the property, which was annually increasing in value.
The house then divided—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority --109
The amendment was lost.
Mr. S. HERBERT suggested that a portion of the
land in question might be advantageously taken by her
r
Majesty's Government in lieu of money
barrack accommodation. The longer they delayed
purchasing a site for barrack accommodation the
more they would have to pay for it, from the daily in-
creasing value of land.
The CHANCELLOR ~f the EXCHEQUER said the
suggestion was worthy of consideration, but that was
not the question for the consideration of the committee.
Toe coininissionere were prepared to carry out the plan
of 1852, and asked :he Government to do so, or enable
them to do so untrammelled by her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and the latter thought it desirable to withdraw on
having the public money repaid.
Mr. KINNAIRD said the Royal Commissioners
could not repay the 180,000/. without they sold a por-
tion of the land, and he saw no reason why her Majesty's
Government might not take a portion of the land in part
payment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Royal Commissioners did not intend to sell any portion
of the land, but some of it would be let on lease for
building, as originally contemplated in the scheme of
1852. It was intended to erect a great artistic and in-
dustrial college at South Kensington for the education
of the people.
Mr. B, HOPE reported there were to be schools of
art, and that the second should be at Brompton, where
the people would not go to be educated.
Atter some further discussion,
Mr. AYRTON said that it was unfair for the Royal
Commissioners to have all the advantages of this scheme.
He understood that the land, which was purchased
at 3,0001. per acre, was now worth 5,0001. per acre,
and a rental of 6001. per acre. If they were to let
15 acres on building leases, there would be sufficient
rent to pay the interest of the money.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the original scheme prevented it. The object of the
scheme was to disburse the money for the purpose of
science and art, and it was being carried out.
The clause accordingly was then agreed to.
On clause 2,
Mr. ALCOCK moved the omission of the clause. By
enabling the Government to retain 12 acres in their own
hands, they would probably cause great expense in
future, and thus they would defeat the professed object
of the bill.
Mr. SLANEY supported the clause, believing that it
tended to benefit the community.
Mr. GLADSTONE wished to see the clause some-
what modified. As it stood the Government could only
retain the land for purposes connected with the depart-
ment of science and art. That appeared to him too
stringent, and he thought it would be better to enlarge
the discretion of the Government. He thought the hon.
member for Surrey (slr. Alcock) could hardly be aware
of the efftct which would be produced by the omission
of the clause. In that case, under the first clause the
commissioners would have it in their power to exempt
thernselvea from the obligations of the deed which they
had concluded with the Treasury, and they would be-
coma possessors of the whole of the buildings with their
valuable c ntenta. He thought 60,0001. was a perfectly
equitable price for this land. It consisted of about 12i
acres, which cost 4,0001. par acre, or 50,000/. altogether
A small piece of land was purchased for 2,000/, to im-
prove the approach, and 2,0001. more was expanded in
laying out the road, and 4,0001. per acre was paid for
two acres, which formed the site of the road. These
sums made together 62,0001., and therefore 60,0001. was
a very fair price for the public to pay.
Mr. SPOONER said the right hon. gentleman had
spoken as it the commissioners were not trustees for the
public,. In point of fact they were so, and therefore
there was no reason why the Sheepshanks collection
should not be placed in their hands. The of of those
who wished to have the clause omitted was that the
Government should have no inure to do with the depart-
Went of science acd art ; and if this second clause were
given up, and the 12 acres handed over to the commis•
eioners, these g,:otleruen would afterwards act iu the
matter as trustees for the public. It was bad in prin-
ciple for the Government to employ, in any way what-
ever, the general taxation of the country in the promo
tion of any particular object in which the whole country
was not concerned.

Mr. CO ViiPER said the hon. gentleman who had just
sat down was mistaken in supposing that under Mr.
Sheepshanks' will, his gallery could be handed over to
the commissioners. Mr. Sheepshanks exhibited the
strongest objection to tl,e placing of his collection in the
hands of any board, or trustees, or coininissioners ; his
desire was that his pictures should be taken care of by
those responsible ministers of the Crown who had the
supervision of the education department. As to the
boo. gentleman a views of art and science, it was well
known that they were rather ancient, and better suited
for the times of the Goths and Vandals than to the pre-
sent day. (Laughter.)
Mr. SPOONER said, notwithstanding the allusion
made to the• Goths and Vandals—(laughter)—he should
not abdicate the function of protecting the tax-payers of
this country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the objection of his bon. friend (Mr. Spooner) to the
department of science and art might be perfectly sound
and valid, but they had really nothing to do with the
question before the house. As he was him•elf respon-
sible for the insertion of this clause in the 111, he would
briefly state what was the object of it. The Royal Com-
missioners wished to dissolve this partnership ; the Go-
vernosent agreed to it, and the commissioners undertook
to pay the turn of 182,5001. The commissioners natu-
rally said, "If we pay you this money you must put n.
in possession of the property which we have purchased."
The Government thought it fair; but it happened that a
email detached portion of the property was occupied by
public institutions wid gal eriej of art which were lett
to the country, and for the acceptance of which the
Ministers cf the day were responsible. The Govern-
ment having been bound by Mr. Sheepshanks' will, the
question arose whether they should pay a refit fur the
location of these objects. Tee rent would have been very
sigh, as it must have been c.ihnia!ed upon the original
wit of the plot of land; and it was therefore suggested
that, instead of their paying rent, the establishment
should remain till the original arrangement was matured,
a sum being paid equal to the original price given by
the commissioners, and not increased by the increased
value which the land had acquired in the interval.
It appeared to him tha: the terms which the Govern-
ment had made for the public were as fair as any that
could be expecte.% Teat was the only issue raised by
the clause, and all that his h lend the member for
WarwicAtsEire s,id abort the inexpediency of Govern-
ment interference with cience and art, bad no more to
do with this matter than it had to do with Kensingtor-
Gore. As to the commissioners taking charge of Mr.
Bheepahauks' collection, tinit was simply impossible,
They bad no inure tiglic to take c'AarAe of Mr. Sheep
shaulr' gal h:ry, rof the D,....,artm,mt ot Sc'eace and Art
than 1/05, metubere of that teal ‘e. Thev might as well he
expected te take charge uf the Howe 11Tartment.
Mr. JOSEPH LOCKE was eurpriced to h:ar the
right hoc, gtutleinan say that the commissioners Lai no
right tie interfere with science and art. If that were
true, why wai th,re a partner:hip ? (Hear, hear.) It
was remarkable that the pe:sous wh,) were at the bead
Of the department *cieuee and art f_rwed the Royal
CJturni,3ine.
Sir H. L LOUG EIB cr thought the great de`ezt of
the clause wet that it diet hot state al. precise sum teat
was to he paid.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND thought there was something
kept back in this matter. Toey were told that the com-
missioners had nothing to do with science, and art ; and
at the same time they were informed that those gentle-
men had to provide schools for the people. There was
some secret influence some he e ; there was something ,
tbat wal not fair and above board.
Mr. CONINGHAM sail if the Chaucel!or of the Ex-
Chequer wished to advance science and art he c uld hot
do better than assent to the rnoti,in of the right bon.
gentlemen the member for Ashton for the repeal of the
paper duty.
Sir G. LEWIS observed that some bon. members ap-
peared to labour under the impre,sion that this clause
was inserted to guard the interest of the commissioners
against the public, whereas it was evidently inserted to
guard the interests of the public against the commis-
sioners, (Hear, hear.) The department of science and
art was a department which had no connexion whatever,
except as a matter of negotiation, with the Commis-
sioner& of the Exhibiiian.
Mr. J. WILSON a cll' submit to the Chancellor of
the
Exchequer, in accordance with the suggestion of the
right "n• gentleman the member for the University cf
Oxford, the t
In
words to the effect that the land
lauee'lai A,1c.1.,1 be
Lorßetained r the use of the public.
think the word "public" of the EXCHEQUER did not
an act of Parliament.
th
into
was language which was usually
introduced
Mr. T. BARING thought et
in
emission of the clause
would militate against the obj et
Tbe
then agreed to, cluse was
vaiteidw'the bill passed
through caommittee.
Tho house resumed.
TLIE PAPER DUTIES.
On the motion for going into committee of l supp yon
education estimates,
Mr. M. GIBSON moved the following resolution :
"That this house is of opinion that the maintenance of
Min testy on paper, as a permanent source of revenue
would 'be impolitic, and that such financial arrangements
ought to be made as will enable Parliament to dispense
with tbat tax." He thought it might be right for him to
ally, in order to avoid being misunderstood, that in pro-
POeitac 'this resolution, which he had placed upon the