The Sun.
London, England, 1860-05-04 00:00:00

THE SUN LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 4, I±6o.

cal proposition, proceeded to a length unknown he believed,
within the Parliamentary experience of any person who
heard him'. (Hear.) There was no example within the re-
collection of any gentleman in
,that house of a debate con-
tinued for six nights without a motion. But this was a seri-
ous question. (Derisive cheers from the Opposition.) Far
be it from him to dispute that on such a question they could
not go on for six times six nights without exhausting the
power of making speeches full of importance and interest,
and every way worthy of consideration. But that was
crossed by another question, whether the house ought not
also to consider its opportunities of action. Six nights ex-
hausted something like the eighth part of the time available
for the discussion of such a measure in a whole session :
and this discussion had proceeded thus far without the
elimination of one definite principle by which it was to be
guided. (Cheers, and cries of No.) They ascertained by it
the opinion of individual members, but not the opinion of
the house, and he put it to the house whether free discus-
sion should be pursued without the enunciation of principles
by which a majority of the house was to be bound. (Cheers.)
Now, he concurred with his right hon. friend that, apart
from the views they might take on the principles embodied
in the bill, it had become matter of public interest and pub-
lic necessity that the house should seriously and practically
dispose of it. He thought he could claim some merit for
sincerely entertaining that desire. (Laughter from the
Opposition.) He thought he might do so, because when
hon. gentlemen who saw fit to receive that claim with
sneers were members of a Government which introduced a
R6form Bill, though he disapproved of that bill, he never-
theless declined to vote with his noble friend, and the same
motives he was entitled to urge on others, namely, a sense
of the paramount prudence—not to say the duty—of re-
lieving the question from the condition in which it is placed,
and which could only raise doubts in the public mind as to
the value of the pledges made by publie men. (Prolonged
cheers and counter-cheers.) Well, with respect to the bill
before them, he would draw a distinction between different
classes of objections. He did not follow his right hon.
friend with his remarks on the county franchise, unless to
say that his estimate of an increase of 300,000 was much
more than double what they (the Government) believe to be
probable. (Hear.) He would not follow him either into
the disfranchisement of seats, for though doubtless a sub-
ject of considerable importance, it occupied only a secon-
dary place in the general question, and would be best con-
sidered in committee. He would, however, remark that
*ha right hon. baronot the mambo, for IlentOraffhlr.xo amid,
in reference to that subject, that the disfranchisement
ought to proceed much further than the Government had
shown themselves incl fined to propose.
Sir E. L. BULWER--No.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—WeII,
then, he would transfer the remark to the hon, member for
Salford, for it was only another way of saying that the Go-
vernment ought to have introduced a bill which they knew
would have no chance of passing. And with respect to what
were termed" fancy franchises," such as those of graduates,
savings banks, and others, which were, perhaps, very good in
themselves, he would only say that being novel,
they were difficult, and would be productive of
minute and insignificant results. (Hear, hear.)
Her Majesty's Government mild not be supposed to enter-
tain an objection to fancy franchises, as a large number of
the present Cabinet were the men who six years ago made
a proposal of them to Parliament. The question again of a
rating, or a voter's franchise, could not be closed by that
debate. The great opposition to the bill indeed wag founded
upon the £6 franchise. The objection taken to that main
feature of the bill was, that a £6 franchise would introduce
an immense clais into the electoral body, who were not in
quantity but in quality unfit for the exercise of the fran-
chise, and would be capable, by their numbers of overweigh-
ing and overwhelming other classes in the country.
(Opposition cheers.) 11 as that true or not ? (Hear.) He
would, in the first place take the argument of his right hon.
friend as to the nature and quality of the new addition to
the constituency. He did not admit that the working men
considered as individuals, were less worthy of the suffrage
than other classes. (Cheers.) He did not admit the truth
of those charges of corruption which had been made against
them as a class. (Hear, hear.) He did not believe that
the working men' as a class were disposed to tax their
neighbours and exempt themselves. (Cheers.) He did not
believe that schemes of Socialism, Communism, Republi-
canism, or any other schemes at variance with the laws of
the country, were prevalent among them. (Hear, hear.)
He granted that they might corrupt the working classes of
the country if they gave them a monopoly of power.
(Opposition cheers.) They were, he contended, not cor-
rupt at present, and the question was whether this bill
would give such an overwhelming amount of political
power as would tend to corrupt them in future. Was, then,
the addition of that class, who lived in houses under £lO
a-year rental and £6, likely to give them such a predomi-
nance ? He, for one, agreed in the opinion that they
would not be doing their duty on this question, if they
merely passed something called a Reform Bill, without
taking care that it was a genuine and real measure of Re-
form. They were bound, in dealing with the question, to
take care the measure was such as promised something like
permanence, in the sense in which any simple man would
ordinarily use that term. He thought that every one would
admit that in legislating on the subject it was extremely
desirable to deal with it fairly, and thus get rid of the sub-
sequent agitation which might arise, if they reduced the
measure to the smallest modicum of Reform they could de-
vise. (Hear, hear.) They were bound, he contended, in
admitting the working classes, to take care that the number
should not be as small as possible, but that it should be so
large as to insure the confidence of those not admitted, in
the justice and fair dealing of the Legislature. Therefore,
he said, the mere extension of the franchise was not suffi-
cient, and the question then came whether the addition pro-
posed by the bill was a reasonable or an unreasonable aug-
mentation of, the constituency, either as regarded quantity
or quality. He said that, looking to the number of inde-
pendent and educated working men who would be admitted
by this bill, and speaking of quality as well as quantity, the
quality of those who would be admitted if the bill passed
was good enough for the exercise of the privilege it was pro-
posed to give them. (Hear, and a cry of " Universal Suf-
frage," from Lord eLovaine.) He begged the noble lord's
pardon. Ho was not speaking of universal suffrage. If
they admitted the principle of selection, he did not know
where to stop. They did not make any selection in the
case of the £lO constituency, and he did not think
that small shopkeepers were always wise men—always
contented men—always independent men. (Cheers.)
He went further, and doubted, even if they were to
raise the suffrage to £2O, that they would always be
able to find those qualities. Would the house bear with
him while he endeavoured to state to them the views at
which the Government had arrived as to the amount of
change which would be introduced into the constituencies
by this bill. He confined himself entii ely to cities and bo-
roughs, because he thought if they got to a satisfactory un-
derstanding on that point there could be little difference on
others. (Cries of " Oh, oh," and laughter from the Oppo •
sition.) He was afraid, from the manner in which that
statement had been received by hon. gentlemen opposite,
that he had been a little too sanguine in his calculations.
(Hear, hear.) But he did think that if they settled the
question of the boroughs there might be some probability of
arriving at a fair conclusion on the general question. Now,
what was the number which would be admitted to the fran-
chise by the bill as it now stood ? Before it was introduced
the Government used the best means in their power to got
at the facts. The instruments they had to use for that pur-
pose were certainly not perfect, but the information was
honestly collected so far as was in their power, and since
the bill had been under discussion, the Government had
used every means at their disposal to render it as complete
and accurate as possible, and to arrive at a reasonable
amount of certainty as to the augmentation of the constitu-
ency which would be made by the bill in the cities and
towns of this country. Now what was, the amount? It
could not possibly exceed 200,000 in any case. He thought
it would, in all probability, fall short of 150,000. He did
not, therefore, see anything in the measure to justify the
comparisons made that evening between the institutions of
this country and those of America. (Hear.) Had the
people of England been infected by thae disease ? Were
they likely to hear America held up as a pattern ?
(Cheers.) He thought he understood that cheer. (Hear.)
The meani& of it might be that perhaps a solitary gentle-
man might have a strong sympathy with America, but he
did not speak of a solitary individual, but of the tone
and temper that pervaded English society. He must tell
hon. gentlemen who cheered that they did injustice to this
country. It would be a- miserable day for England when
she thought fit to adopt America for a model. (Conserva-
tive cheers.) It was England that had to teach much to
America, and Americans had much to learn from England.
(Hear, hear.) This bill did not give that predominance to
the working classes which was supposed. It proposed to
invest one in every 25 working men with; the suffrage, but
evert that and much more in that direction would take ge-
nerations to make England like America. But it was the
social state of America, and not its political institutions,
that was the cause of much that was blameable. The social
state of this country was very different, and it was not for
us to travel across the Atlantic to be taught on these sub-
jects. Well then, war it, or was it not, the case that, so far
as vague assertions could be brought to the test of facts and
figures, the whole case to show that the working men
were about to have the lion's share, had broken down. (An
hon. member, " No.") He was certain that was not the
meaning of the right hon. gentleman the member for Hert-
fordshire when he spoke of the swamping of the constitu-
tion about t 3 follow this bill. They were not about to adopt
the American system, and even with extended suffrage they
would probably eee the monarchy and institutions of the
_ _ _

country flourish with the free assent of the people. (Hear,
hear, and cheers.) He hoped the house would assent to the

second reading of this bill. For himself ho would say. that
any Government that would consent to withdraw the bill

would cover itself with irretrievable disgrace. (Hear, hear.)
There was no such intention on the part of the Government.
His right hon. friend (Sir E. B. Lytton) had it in his own
power to move the rejection of the bill, and it would be for
the House of Commons, if it so willed it, to assent to the
motion for the rejection of the measure. But let them not
. . _

attempt—and in the attempt make legislation difficultb;
means of delay—to get rid of this bill. He owned that he

could not see, in the lengthened debate which they had had,
that they had_ found anything at all proportionate to the
value Of time consumed, Remembering all the difficulties