The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LON lON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 24 1867.

subject of Irish grievances. I admit that up to 1829 notY.ng
could have been worse than the Government of Irr;land ;
but from that time to this the House of Commons tias been
endeavouring to alleviate the physical, constitutional, and
moral injuries to Ireland. But there have been obstacles,
and amongst the chief of them is the language used by hon.
members of this house. (Hear, hear.) Can, they believe their
poor miserable countrymen can see the truth and the right
when gentlemen in their position in: the House of Com-
mons before the people of England. dare to say that we are
unjust to Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) I say a more foul ca-
lumny was never uttered a more gigantic falsehood was
never dared.

Mr. MAGUIRE —I rise to order, Sir, to ask you, as the
highest authority in this house, whether that language is
consistent with parliamentary usages.
Mr. SPEAKER—Not as addressed to any individual
member of this house or as pointed to any particular alle-
gation.
Mr. ROEBUCK—I did not apply it to any individual
member, but I say that any one who dares to say that this
house in its constitutional efforts to aid and assist the
people of Ireland have forgotten the miseries of Ireland,
or that they by their legislation have sought their own in-
dividual benefit in contradistinction to the benefits of the
empire, has given utterance to a daring falsehooi. (lear.)
Mr. MAGUIRE -No one sail so.
Mr. ROEBUCK —lf no one said so, why interfere ?
Mr. SPEAKER—I think that is hardly a term to apply
to an hon. gentleman.

Mr. HOEBUCK—I always bow to your commands,
Sir, if you think I have said anything but the truth.
(Laughter.) Now, I will ask what this house could
do? Why, says the hon. gentleman, relieve the miseries
of the Irish people. How is that to be dine? By legis-
lation, says the hon. gentleman. By what legislation ?
And then he points to the Irish Church. Can any one in

his senses believe that the poor people of Ireland are made
wretched by the existence of the Irish Church ? Why, sir,
no one more than I dislikes a hierarchical establishment,
or the predominancy of any priesthood. But I don't like
one priest more than another. (fear, hear, and laughter.)
I cannot conceive how any member of this house can say
that we have not carefully considered, are not anxious to
do justice to Ireland. Talk about the relations between

landlords and tenants! In England we leave landlords
and tenants to settle their own private concerns. I want
to know why Irishmen can't do the same. Then, as to
Irishmen rushing from the country by millions: I say that
is a very good thing for those who go, and thereby im-
prove their physical condition, and it is a very good thing
for those who are left behind because it relieves the labour
market. Granting that they go away with a bulling hatred
to England—is that a just or wise feeling ? It may be the
feeling of an ignorant peasant; but ought it be tho feel-
ing or the language of those who are better taught ?
The Irish peasant is not in misery because the English
are in Ireland, but because of the state of things in that
country over which the Government has no control. The
laws in Ireland are the same as in England. Criminal
and civil justice is as well administered there as here.
That 1 assert, and I challenge any one not to deny
but to disprove what I have stated. (Hear, hear.)
Trade and commerce are as free there as here, and as
regards the religious position of the Irish Catholics,
their position is not different from that of English dis-
senters. There is a dominant Church in both countries,
but was there ever a more gentle, a more humane Church?
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) To say that the Church of
England is a domineering church is utterly false. Well,
what is there, then, to distinguish the people of lrelaud
from the people of England? There is no difference in
the treatment of one as compared with the other. It is
only such wild discourses as that which we have just
heard that induce the people of Ireland to believe that
their neiseriee arise from the Government of this couutry,
when they are really suffering from calamities over which
no Government has any control. I believe nothing could
be more injurious to the country of the hon. gentleman
than the speech he has just tneele. (Hear.)
Mr. BIIIGHT—I wish to mike one or two observations
on the speech of the hon. and learned gentleman, which
is very much like that he has delivered before on two or
three occasions when Irish questions have been before
the house. I think in his speech he has done my honour-
able friend the member fur Cork a great injustice. The
point before the house is the further suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act; and I understand my honourable
friend to ask a question of the Chief Secretary' for Ireland
with regard to the conduct in reference to the evidence
of one of the informers. My hon. friend's charge against
the Government—but I will not say charge—his question
—is a very fair one, and one which I think every mem-
ber of the House will think it is necessary should be
answered. At the beginning of the session Government
proposed to restore the constitution of Ireland by discon-
tinuing the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and
they stated in this and the other House of Parliament,
and theAttorney-General at his election, that the condition
of Ireland was such that this could be safely done. The
Attorney -General, with an expression whi._ll I suppose is
peculiar to his country, even said it was more than safe..
But from the ozid of lust Esaeaiou to the opening of this, this
informer, on whose evidence two, men have been con-
demned to death, was communicating twice a week
with the Government, giving most minute information
about the various meetings of conspirators, the chief
actors, the plans whieei were in contemplation, and the
time of the projected rising. My hon. friend said, " If that
is true, why did you, when Parliament met, propose to dis-
continue the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act ?" Ano-
ther question, which is even more important, is this : Why
did you not, knowing this unhappy transaction was com-
ing to a head, arrest the leading conspirators, every one of
whom was known to you through this informer, and so
prevent the rising of the 6th March, and the necessity of
trying men for high treason and having them now lying
under sentence of death ? That is a fair question, and the
House of Commons has a right to have it fairly answered
That was the object of the speech of my-hon. friend. But.
the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Roebuck), of whom I
said the other day he was always ready to contradict
everything, gets up now- and not only contradicts my hon.
friend, but makes him make a speech which he did not
make, and then contradicts that. He reminds me of a case
I saw the other day before one of the courts of London, in
which a man objected to be a juryman. The judge said it
was very wrong; every man ought to be willing to be a
juryman. The man said as an excuse that he was not fit
to be a juryman, for he never in the whole of his life was
able to agree with anybody. (Laughter.) The judge en-
couraged him, telling him he ought still to act, but the
man replied that that was not his only infirmity, as iu
point of fact he had found he was not able to agree with
himself. (Loud laughter.) And the hon. and learned gen-
gleman (Mr. Roebuck) for more than the last two or three
years of his life has iu every session, in the most distinct
manner, contradicted almost everything that he said dur-
ing the former years of his life. (Hear.) What does he say
now ? He insists that the people.of Ireland have no griev-
ances ; and what he says is almost unsupported evidence
against the evidence of an entire people. Nobody denies
that the uuiversal opinion of the Catholic population of
Ireland is that in tkat country there are grievances to
which this house does not pay sufficient attention,
and I have no doubt every member from Ireland would
say that that opinion is not confined to the Catholic popu-
lation of Indeed ; but you will find amongst vast numbers
of the Protestant population as strong a feeling of con-
demnation of the usual course of Parliament with regard
to Irish affairs as amongst the Catholic population them-
selves. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, I should rather prefer
the evidence of almost a whole nation with regard to their
grievances to the dogmatic assertion of the hon. and
learned gentleman. But he ventured into particulars. He
asked the house what differences there were between the
Catholic in Ireland and the Dissenter in England. I am
a Dissenter in England, a Dissenter of Dissenters; and I
disapprove not only of the Established Church of Eng-
land, but of all established Churches. But I do not feel
the Established Church ef England to be a grievance to
me in the sense in which I should feel an Established
Church of Ireland to be if I were an Irishman, and of the
Catholic Church. (Hear, hear.) Tho difference is enor-
mous. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman
says it is not.
Mr. ROEBUCK—I did not say so.
Mr. BRIGHT—I beg your pardon; I heard you say
No." (Laughter.)
Mr. ROEBUCK-1 beg to say that I never uttered the
word "No." I said " How ?" (Laughter.)
Mr. BRIGHT—I thank the hon. gentleman for his ex-
planation, and I will proceed to tell him immediately.
(Laughter.) In England the Established Church is at
became
as old as dissent. (Laughter.); At the time when dissent
woeinEngwlaaend,tbaend
Churchju et
o f
pre-
viouscamteoatnhaext,isttehenEce and a
Est Church
all the people. It did not confiscate the pro, et ty of dis-
senters or any of the funds of which they, as dissenters,
had become possessed. (Hear.) The Established Church
remained as it was, and the Nonconformists of that day
gradually withdrew Irons it because they found in their
own Nonconformist churches and organisations what
to them was capable of affording a greater solace
in the performance of their own worship. They did
not feel that the clergyman and the people about the
church—l speak of the great bulke -had turned them out,
confiscated their revenue; and supplanted them. They
withdrew voluntarily from the Established Church -
(hear)—and although they might not believe that the Es-
tablished Church was a good thirg, yet so long as it re-
mained a great institution of the nation, and supported by
the great majority of the nation, they felt it was not iu
any degree a special grievance which might ju lily them
in disloyalty, discoutente or insurrection. (Rear.)
In Ire-
land the case was wholly different. (Cheers.) There was
the greatest difference in Ireland between the professors
of the Established Church and the professors of the.
Catholic faith. There are great and essential points
of division between the two Churches. And then
the Protestant Church in Ireland came in with the
English soldier and the English power—(hear, hear) -with
a power which confiscated all the land and put an alien
proprietary there, and dislodged, with a cruelty of whick
history has scarcely a parallel, the whole population who
had been possessors of the sail. (Cheers.) Aud not'ouly
that, but it confiscated the whole of the ecclesiastical
revenues of the people, and placed theta at the disposal
of a small garrison minority, holding a faith which the

great body of the people repudiated, and holding it in

connection with a political supremacy which was neces-
sarily hateful to the whole population. (Hear, hear.)
If the honourable and learned gentleman has studied

politics for I am afraid to say how many years—but I
have known him as a politician for thirty years—if he
has studied politics all this whilA, and has not been
able to discover that there is an essential difference bo-

tween the position of the Catholic in Ireland and that of
the Dissenter in England with regard to the Established

Church maintained-in both countries by Parliament,

then I should have no hope whatsoever, by anything that
I could say, to bring him to a different mind. But I ven-
ture to say that such speeches as he *has made to-day—

(hear, hear) —and such as he has made heretofore in this
house—(hear, hear)—are a thousand times more calculated
to stir up hostility against the English Government and
the Imperial power in Ireland - (•' Oh, oh," from the Minis-
terial benches, and hear, hear," from the Opposition)—
than any speeches that I have ever heard from any Irish
member on this side of the house. (Cheers.) He spoke

of tho lion. member for Cork and those who speak with

him as if he and they were the instigators of the discontent
which exists in Ireland. (Bear, hear.) My hon. friend
has recently p tid a visit of some months to the United
States, for the purpose of examining the condition and to
study the sentiments of his own countrymen in the Ame-
rican republic, and on this sad occasion, when, for I Ithow
not how many times during our political lives there has
been some measure of coercion or repression proposed for

Ireland, he stands up here to-night to lift what he calls so
justly a warning voice in the ears of the Parliament of
England, and to ask them to meditate upon what they
are doing, o: not doing, with regard to his country. He
probably does not believe—no one of us believes—that
there is discontent in Ireland which, alone and unaided

from any other country, can make a sex ions contest with
the power of England. But the discontent is not the less
discreditable to us, and it is scarcely less hurtful to the em-
pire than if it were more powerful and more able to con-
tend with England. (gear.) What he says is this : In
the United States at this moment there are more Irishmen
and descendants of Irishmen than there are in Ireland itself.

Almost every man of the Irish race is filled with a bitter
hostility to England ; paitly, in the case of some, from
what they have felt, and in the case of the rest from what
they have heard, or known, or believed, with regard to
the condition of their countrymen in Ireland. And he

says the time will come—he fears it will, he knows it pos-
sibly may come—when the thre ~ four, live, or six mil-
lions of Irishmen in the United States, by their action
upon political parties and political leaders, may force that
country into conflict with this. You know what political
leaders can do. (Laughter.) You have seen it here, and
not in this sessio n only, but in many sessions. You know
what can be done by means of a great agitation. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) And you know how political leaders
will bow down, and bow themselves in the very &Ist, be-
fore an agitating power which they are constantly pre-
tending to despise. (near, hear.) And so it is in Ame-
rica, where every man has a vote, where in every action of
the Government there is the manifestation of the popular
_ _

will in that country, four or five or six millions of Irish-
men, acting at the poll, influencing political leaders, influ-
encing the press everywhere more or less, can, if there
arises some question of difference between the United
States and England, throw themselves sufficiently into the
scale to make peace impossible. And if peace should be-
come impossible and war certain, then I ask you what
would be the condition of this country with the sentiment
in Ireland so disloyal and angry as it is now, and with
another and a greater Ireland within ten days of steam to
hold out its hand of sympathy to your discontented people ?
(Hear, hear.) I say that this is a great question—(hear,
hear)—and the Irish members ought to be banished to
their own side of the Channel if they could sit in this
House and see proposals of this kind brought in session
after session and not raise their voice. My hon. friend the
member for Cork—one of the most eminent, popular, and
trusted representatives of the Irish people, who knows
accurately the sentiments of his race and people on the
American Continent—instead of being assailed as he has
been.by the hon. and learned member for Sheffield is en-
titled to the cordial and hearty thanks of every friend of
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland for the
speech that he has addressed to the House to-night
(Cheers.)
Lord NAAS said the hon. member (Mr. Bright) re-
peated the question put by the hon. member for Cork
with regard to the course of the Government in dealing
with the late Fenian insurrection. He did not impute
to the hon. gentleman the member for Cork any intention
to make a charge which he (the noble lord) observed in
Ireland during the trials and in a portion of the English
press. The charge was that, being fully aware of the
nature and object of the conspiracy, and the persons en-
gaged in it, the Government did not take those steps which 1
were in their power at the earliest possible. moment to
make those persons amenable to justice, and that, in fact,
we played with the conspiracy fur the purpose of even-
tually putting it down by force. That is as serious a
charge as can be brought against a Government; and as
far as the present Government is concerned, it is as calu-
mnious a charge; as was ever made. (Hear, hear.) Ile
was sorry he had not had notice of the question, but having
observed these charges in the public prints, he had on the
previous night looked over some documents, and therefore
he would be able to show the house how entirely baseless
that charge was. (Hear, hear.) The whole policy of the
Government was exactly the reverse of that. From the
very first moment he took effice, in all his letters and com-
munications with the Government here, he impressed upon
his colleagues that the policy to be pursued was this. That
no effort should be spared to nip every appearance of con-
spiracy in the bud, and to prevent anything like au armed
outbreak. So far back as October last, in a letter to the
Home Secretary, he laid down distinctly what he conceived
to be the imperative duty of the Government. That was
that they should not allow a single man who they were
convinced was engaged in treasonable practices to remain
at largo. The Government acted upon that suggestion
throughout. Every particle of information received by the
Government was acted upon. Oa the 20th September
last the Government received information that there was
a depot of arms in Liverpool, and in connection with
it a considerable quantity of the chemical compound
called liquid fire, which was made by these men for the
purposes of incendiarism. The moment we received that
intormation orders were given for a search, and that
search was successful. A considerable number of arms
'w ere found, and a large quantity of this diabolical engine
of destruction. But fur some time after that the com-
munications were to general that was impossible for
the Government to act upon them, and they referred
generally te individuals who were either in England or on
the Continent. In consequence of communications made
to us from various quarters iu November, orders were
given to the constabulary generally throughout Ireland to
make confidential reports as to what, in their opinion, was
the position of the Fenian conspiracy. Consequently we
knew that great activity prevailed, and heard of symptoms
of the intention of the leaders of the conspiracy to attempt
to revive their operations. Large lists of names were sent
to us and carefully examined, and about tho 27th Novem-
ber forty warrants were issued against local leaders in
Neu ions parts of Ireland. The policy of the Government
was to arrest prominent members of the conspiracy
wherever they could, and in .no case to arrest anybody
;" that
received
s eithe
on r
who they did not think was taking an active part in the
conspiracy. Ile believed no one was arrested who was not
atuheoffiBctehr
Norovaemsebregr,eanurt,.
aFr"olini" informationor "0
Power was arrested on 4th December, with several of his
comrades, for distributing arms. These persons turned
out to be leaders of the movement, and Dr. Power was
subsequently sentenced to fifteen years' penal servitude.
On the 11th December we received information that a
meeting was to be held in Dublin on the following day,
and the police actually surprised 70 "centres" sitting in
council. About the same time a person named Mahoney
was arrested in England, and removed to Ireland, where he
was tried and convicted. The steamers from Liverpool to
Bristcl were watched, and suspicious persons arrested.
In consequence of these steps, at the end of December,
as far as we could tell, the whole movement was crushed.
Between the Ist and 15th of December,.B7 warrants were
issued for the arrest of important p rsons ; but as the con-
then appeared to be at an end, so far as the leaders
spiracy .
in Ireland were concerned, it was the duty of the
Government not to ask a renewal of the Habeas
Corpus Suspension Act. However, a most important
change took place, and agitation was commenced by
Stephens in America, and a most important meeting
was held by the leaders of the movement in America.
Immediately on their return to New York the scheme of
military organisation was formed, and on Dec. 22 th
leaders began to leave America for this country. They
continued to arrive
till the end of February, the determi-
nation, being at all hazards, to effect a rising in Ireland.
Their intentions were not known till a considerable num-
ber had arrived, and even tho Fenian leaders in Ireland
were not aware of the new movement at the end of De-
cember. Government acted upon the information the
moment it was received. Any Government that would
have tampered with such a dangerous conspiracy for
single moment would commit
a very grievous and serious
blunder, and nothing could be more wicked than to allow
it to grow for the purpose of putting it down. (Cheers.)
No Government would dare to take a course so justly
meriting condemnation. The Government did not allow a
single man to be at large who they thought had any con-
nection with the movement, but acted on the principle that
prevention was better than cure. (Cheers.) When the
outbreak occurred half the leaders were in custody ; and
many left the country on March 4, when it was found that
the Government had important and accurate information.
Amongst them were men who were not Fenians at all, bat
hail been all their lives engaged in revolutionary move-
ments on the Continent, and made war a trade. The con-
nection of the movement with the revolutionary societies
of the Continent was clearly shown ; and that these men
were sent by the leaders of those societies to play a game
which could only end, if successful, in the overturning of
society, the destruction of property, and the overthrow of
the English rule. The whole covenant of the Govern-
Mont was to prevent' bloodshed, and keep the movement
from coining to ahead. The charge against them is wholly
baseless. He deplored the feeling which exists amongst

the Irish in America, but believed it to have arisen from
their ignorance of the actual state of affairs, and was not
surprised that they had believed the representations of
those who, knowing better, have told them false stories
of Ireland's oppression. Upon those who, in total disre-
gard of truth, make a trade of pouring this poison into
the ears of the poor Irish people, and not upon the latter,
should lie the blame for the unfortunate results which had
been brought out. (Cheers.) Threats of a war with
America are not exactly the kind of appeal or argument
likely to affect the sense of this nation. (Cheers.) The
great desire of the House of Commons and the country is
to do justice to Ireland ; but they will not be urged to
greater interest in the subject by such threats. (Cheers.)
There is sufficient knowledge of the real state of things
in Ireland amongst the Irish people in America; and they
know sufficiently that their interest is opposed to such a
war to prevent it. (Hear, hear.) If the powers of the
Government be continued, they will be exercised, as they
have been for the last nine months, with care and modera-
tion, but with firmness. (Cheers.) He believed these
powers can be so exorcised as that there shall be no inter-
ferenee'svith the liberties or the freedom of action of loyal
subjects of the Queen in Ireland. (Cheers.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he was far from gainsaying the
fact that the further suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act
is not only necessary but merciful to the Irish people.
(Hear, hear.) To say it will be necessary for only a limited
period is to deceive the house. But, in acknowledging the
difficulty which has arisen from the ignorance and careless-
ness of this Legislature—(hear, hear) —he did not avoid
consideration of measures which will eventually make the
suspension unnecessary. He slid not accuse the noble lord,
knowing his sagacity and humanity, of having tampered
with this conspiracy. (Hear.) He did not accuse him, or
the noble lord at the head of the Irish Government, of any
abuse of this power. On the contrary, they had exercised
it with great judgment and humanity. (Hear.) But the
passage in the Queen's Speech in February was an instance
of great irresolution and weakness--a sop thrown to the
Cerberus of popularity. (Hear, hear.) The Government,
being in possession of such information as the recent evi-
dence shows they had at the time, ought not to haeo
mado that statement to the house. (Cheers.) It is still
true that Ireland is in possession of the weakest Executive
in the world. The Government acted wrongly and weakly,
and in opposition to the unanimous opinioe of the police
the magistrates, and the country gentlemen. Wishing to
conciliate Galway they exposed al? Ireland to insurrection.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Galway said Irishmen
always betray their friends. Has he never knOwn English-
men to betray, or at least forsake, their friends even in this
house ? (Laughter.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—When they are wrong.
Mr. OSBORNE said the hon. member said, since 1852,
that Ireland was "occupied, not governed." Yet how he
defends the Church. (Laughter.) Roebuck on the Church !
(Laughter.) He never thought the Church was in danger
till he heard the hon. member's eulogium upon it. (Laugh-
ter.) There is a hardihood of assertion as well as of contra-
diction. New lights are breaking upon the hon. gentle-
man ; he has turned his back on every principle of his
youth, and, like the actor who loses the applause of the
upper gallery, he now plays to the pit of the Treasury
bench. (Loud laughter.) The hon. gentleman's opinion
may be mistaken in Ireland for that of the House of Com-
mons; but the Irish know some little of him, and that little
is in connection with the Galway contract. (Laughter.)
The house is always discussing this question in the same
way. We always know what will be the policy of the Chief
Secretary fur Ireland, whatever his party may be. It
matters to nobody but the lawyers what Government comes
in. (Leighton) The leading lawyer will defend the Church,
and be made Chief Justice ; but nothing will be done for
Ireland. (Laughter.) The policy is always that of the
pigeon-hole. There are three measures the Chief Secretary
will feel bound to introduce : first, a bill for the preserva-
tion of salmon in the rivets. Salmon is the only thing
flourishing in Ireland. (Loud laughter.) There have been
four such bills passed. Then, with a great flourish of
trumpets, a landlords' and tenants' bill—there have been
31 of them. (Laughter.) Then a Peace Preservation
Act, of which there have been 26. (Laughter.) And
when you want a great experiment, the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act is proposed. That has been done ten
times since 1801; and yet the Chief Secretary says in
1867 the further suspension is only for a limited period.
He would not say that the Government of England did
not intend to act fairly towards Ireland, but what he com-
plained of was that some were grossly ignorant and some
grossly bigoted in our legislation towards that country.
(Hear, hear.) Ho was not one of those who put an exag-
gerated importance on the maintenance of the Established
Church in Ireland, but he did hold that it was the duty of
Parliament so to deal with it as to make it in some way
more consonant with, and more agreeable to, the feelings
of the Roman Catholic people of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
Had the House ever made the attempt ? On the contrary,
they were supposed to have made enormous progress in
Irish legislation, because the hon. baronet opposite (Sir P.
Heygate) moved the previous question, and thus, to use a
Irish " bull," advanced Irish legislation by postponing it
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Parliament had made great
concessions to the people of this country, and we might
believe him, an Englishman who understood Ireland, that
we shall be making an enormous mistake if we do not take
up the Irish question in a larger, broader, and more liberal
spirit than we have yet done. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. FORT CF4COE admitted that the exceptionid
powers claimed by the Government were necessary for the
peace of Ireland ; but he held that it was impossible to
acquit them of blame in declaring at the time they were
in full possession of the secrets of Fenia.nism that the
continuance of the' Act would be unnecessary. (Hear,
hear.) He should not object to the renewal of the Act,
but he was convinced that we shall cut a poor figure in
the eyes of the world and lay up great calamities for our-
selves if we pass nothing but measures of repression for
Ireland. Ile was convinced that our first duty is to con-
sider by what means, within the power of Parlianent, we
can dry up the sources of sedition in Ireland, and by
effacing from the minds of •tho people of that country
the memories of the past, reconcile them to the law s
and Government of England. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. FORTESCUE frankly declared that, in his
opinion, it was the painful but imperative duty of the
house to support the Government by extending the dura-
tion of these exceptional powers, which he admitted they
had not abused, and the continuance of which was neces-
sary for the preservation of the peace in Ireland.
Mr. NEWDEGATE, replying to the observation of Mr.
Bright, remarked that the hon. gentleman was certainly a
dissenter from the English Dissenters on the question of
the Irish Church. For the Dissenters of England were
fast coming to the conclusion that these continual at-
tacks on the Irish Establishment as a cause of discon-
tent only tended to promote the designs of the Romish
hierarchy.
From this point the debate took a very discursive turn,
and the speeches delivered assumed more of the character
of a series of addresses to constituents in view of a pending
election, the question immediately before the house being
all but totally ignored or lost sight of. Sir P. O'Brien, who
took credit to himself for the moderation of his views and
fueling, taunted Mr. Roebuck with his advocacy of the
Canadian rebels in 1837. Mr. Whalley trotted out with
his old well-worn crotchet that the discontent prevailing.
in Ireland was to be traced to the "teachings, the doc-
trines, and the discipline" of the Roman Catholic Church.
According to Mr. Brady, the only effect of the Emancipa-
tion Act had been to introduce some 30 Roman Catholic
gentlemen to seats in the House of Commons, and since
1829 there had not been a single ameliorative measure
passed for Ireland. And Sir G. Bowyer capped the climax
of Hibernian grievances by declaring that there was no
country in Europe so oppressed, with the exception of Po-
land and Italy. Mr. Stock made the pardonable and amus-
ing error of supposing the house was occupied with the
discussion of the Irish Land Bill of the Government, and
his criticisms addressed to that measure excited much
merriment accordingly. Tho other speakers were Mi.
Syrian, Mr. Conolly, and Mr. Pim ; but' throughout the
whole debate there was not a single attempt made to show
that the bill was not required by the peculiar situation of
affairs in Ireland.
The second reading was then agreed to, and the re-
maining stages ordered to be taked this day.
The house having gone into committee on the Reform
Bill resumed the consideration of the 4th (the county
franchise) clause.
Mr. VIVIAN moved an amendment extending the suf-
frage to lessees or assignees of lands or tenements, of free-
hold or other tenure, for the unexpected residue of any
term originally created for not less than 60 years, whether
or not on life or lives, or the clear yearly value of L 5 over
and above the rents and charges payable in respect thereof.
A brief discussion ensued, and with the assent of the
Government the amendment was agreed to.
Sir E. C OLEBROOKE then moved to omit the words
" premises of any tenure," and substitute for them a
" dwelling-house."
The amendment was opposed by Minieters, and led to a
division, which resulted in the words "premises of any
tenure" being struck out of the _words
by 196 to 193, being
a majority of 3 against the Government. The announce-
ment of the numbers was hailed with great laughter.
Oa the question that the words " a dwelling-house"
should be inserted, another division was taken, when the
motion was negatived by 212 to 209, which gave the Go-
vernment in its turn a majority of three! The house now
became very excited, in the midst of which
Lord CRANBORNE recommended that, as the clause
was in such a hopeless condition, progress had better
be
reported, and the suggestion was received with cheers
from the Opplisition.
Mr. Secretary HARDY, however, moved to fill up the
blank which now stood in the clause with ;the words,
" lands or tenements," whereupon
Mr. AYRTON proposed to omit the words, "or tene-
ments," and insert, " with a tenement erected thereon."
Sir G. GREY hoped the house would accept the advice
of Lord Cranborne. This called up:
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who pro-
tested against reporting progress at so early au hour (11
o'clock) mid called upon hon. members on both- sides of
the house to support him in going on with the bill.
After some discussion, which was carried ou amid much

confusion, Mr. Ayrton moved that progress should be re-
ported.
At length the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
rose, and, pointing to the clock, said that as it was not very
probable they would be able to bring the discussion to a
close at a reasonable hour he would assent to the chairman
leaving the chair. •
Mr. BRIGHT, on behalf of the Opposition, abjured all
party motives in the course they were pursuing. Their
object was simply to take security against the creation of
faggot votes ; and as the eommitten had now divided twice,
with majorities of three on one side and three on tho other,
he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whose con-
ciliatory disposition he paid a compliment., should, before
the house met again, consider the matter, with the view of
seeing whether he could not reconcile the conflicting
opinions on the subject.
The house then resumed, and the chairman reported
progress.
Tho Public Records (Ireland) Bill was read a second

time. The Army Enlistment Bill was read a third time
and passed ; and the Local Government Supplemental (No.
2) Bill was read a second time.
The house rose et 1 o'clock.

711 E CASE OF TRAFFIC IN FORGED
BILLS OF EXCHANGE.

- -
Yesterday, at the Mansion-house, Adolphe Gold-
stein, of Tredegar-road, Bow, commission agent,
who stands charged with forging and uttering two
bills of exchange with intent to defraud, was brought
up on remand before the Lord Mayor, for further
examination.

Mr. Muliens, solicitor to the London Bankers'
Association, appeared to prosecute, and Mr. Mon-
tagu Williams, instructed by Messrs. Lewis, of
Ely-place, again attended on the part of the pri-
soner.

It will be remembered that at the former exami
nation the evidence disclosed that Messrs. J. E,
Woods and Co., of Shepton-Mallet, had had busi-
ness transactions with a Mr. Du Portu, a merchant,
carrying on business in Union-court, Old Broad•
street, whose acceptance for £5OO due on the 21st
of February last, becatne due. The testimony of
Mr. Woods went to show that Du Portu required
assistance to meet this acceptance on its arriving
at maturity, and with this view Woods was in-
troduced to a Mr. James Adolphus Simpson, who
described himself as a merchant residing at 32,
Hunter-street. Brunswick-square, and who under-
took to procure bills to the amount of about £5OO.
On a subsequent day the parties met again at
Du Portu's office, namely, on the 17th February,
when Simpson handed to Mr. Woods five bills of
exchange, including the two which were alleged to
be forgeries. Both these bills purported to be drawn
by Messrs. Leschkau, Son, and Co., of Paris, one
on William Parker and Co., of 80, Lower Thames-
street, for £7B 165., and the other on Messrs. Henry
Ruedel and Co., of 150, Leadenhall-street, for £75.
For the five bills Mr. Woods paid Simpson £25 for.
his commission, of which Simpson alleged that he
paid £9 to the prisoner, who had procured and from
whom he received the bills in question. It was also
proved that the acceptances of both the bills, as well
as the signatures of the drawers,were forgeries. The
first witness called yesterday was
Mr. John Baptiste James Du Portu, who was
examined by Mr. Mullens, and deposed that he was
a merchant, having offices in Union-court, Old
Broad-street, and was aware that the two bills pro-
duced, together with three others, bad been given
by Mr. Simpson to Mr. Woods, in witness's office,
and in his presence. The prisoner, whom he knew
by sight, . was not present at the time. 'Witness
was not aware that the bills were given to enable
Woods to take up an acceptance for £5OO.
Cross-examined by Mr. M. Williams—The bills
were given to Mr. Woods for his accommodation,
and were to be discounted by Woods' own bankers.
Though Woods did not say so, I, being an agent,
knew his wants, and that he had facilities of dis-
counting at his bankers. I say distinctly that the
bills were simply and purely given to Woods for
his accommodation.
By the Lord Mayor—lknew that there was a bill
for £5OO coining due on the 21st February, and
that bill was drawn by J. E. Woods and Co., end
accepted by Vincent Da Portuony father. It was
given for an advance made on goods tor Woods'
accommodation, and Woods gave an undertaking
in writing to provide for it three days before it
became due. These bills were procured, not to sup-
ply funds for the £5OO acceptance, but as a further
accommodation to Woods, who found the money to
pay as commission to Simpson for procuring the
bills. I cannot speak to the whole of the arrange-
ments, for Simpson and Woods were frequently,
alone together in a private room, while I was en-
gaged on other business in another part of the office.
I have known the prisoner by sight many years, but
never knew his name until the other day. He has
been two or three times at my father's place, where
I have an office. He came there to propose business
in buying goods, but more generally he came to sell
goods. I had never any conversation with the pri-
sonor about the bills, nor did I know until now he
was the man who had given them to Simpson. The
commission was £25 paid to Simpson by Woods, and
not by my father, Mr. Vincent Du Portu.
By Mr. Mullens—Simpson was to give me part of
the commission be received from Woods, as it was
arranged I was to have a share in the profits or com-
mission made on business done by Simpson with any
of our friends. If I was not paid I was to charge it
in an account current I had with Simpson.
By the Lord Mayor.—Of the £25 commission paid
to Simpson on this transaction, about £6 was to
come to me. I knew that was the sum coming to me
because Simpson told me so, and I charged it. Simp-
son said he had paid the prisoner £9 for getting the
bills, and deducting that I was to have a share of the
remainder of the £25 received from Woods.
Mr. Robt. H. Morris was next called, and proved
that he was clerk to the firm of Robarts and Co.,
the bankers, who were the London agents of Messrs.
Stuckey, the bankers, who had a branch bank at
Shepton Mallet. The two bills produced had been
sent on 11th February last to Messrs. Robarts by
Messrs. Stuckey and Co. for collection. They were
presented, and marked by the alleged acceptors as
being forgeries.
Police-constable Edward Cable, 210 K, was next
examined, and proved that on Friday evening last
Mr. Simpson came to him in the Tredegar-road,
Bow, and at his request he went with him to a
house, No. 1, Vernon-road, and there inquired for
the prisoner, who was called down stairs by his wife.
When the prisoner appeared Mr. Simpson said he
would give him into custody for forging two bills of
exchange—one for £7B 163., and the other for £75.
The prisoner said, " I have committed no forgery."
Witness took the prisoner to the police station at
Bow, where the prisoner said that Simpson had
given him into custody in order to save himself.
Witness then brought the prisoner to the Bow-lane
station, and Simpson came with them. The charge
was made by Simpson, and taken down by the in-
spector, who asked Simpson why there had not been
a warrant issued in the case. Simpson replied that
Mr. Mullens had told him it was. too late that day
to obtain a warrant. •
Mr. Mullens begged to say that he had not had
any conversation with Mr. Simpson on the subject
of a warrant, and therefore his statement in that
respect was incorrect.
In reply to Mr. Montagu Williams, the witness
Cable stated at the Bow-lane station the prisoner
told .3impson that he had got the bills from a man
named Stoven. •
Mr. Mullens informed the Lord Mayor that this
was the case for the prosecution, and asked that
the prisoners should be committed for trial'on. this

charge.
Mr. Montagu I'Villiatns sal that happily he knew
very little of bills of exchange, but. certainly the
evidence in this case opened his eyes to a system that
appeared to him to be :perfectly, miraculous. Ile
submitted, however, that on this evidence no jury
would convict the man now at the bar, who stated
he had received the' bills from Stoven, who had been
seen that morning, and had promised to attend at
this hearing.
The prisoner (interposing) said that he saw
Stoven in the court when the proceedings just com-

menced.
Mr. M. Williams—Surely Stoven ought to be
found by the prosecution. It was clear that he
would not come here now on. his own accord.
Mr. Mullens said he was quite willing to take any
steps to secure the attendance of Stoven, but he