The Sun.
London, England, 1803-05-14 00:00:00

Loont

;ry was a. :o cover the existing of muck
greatet deficiencies, and this he was !wittily able to
prove ; and farther, that it was not only equal to main.-
tain its'existence and independence but even to reimell
aggression, and to ,take ample vengeance on the
authors of that aggression : the Parliament, under
such circumstances, should .not shrink, hum its
dtity, but fairly call these tesnurces into action, and
provide a Revenue•fully adequate to meet the occa-,
sions of the Country. It was 'fully in the recoliec-
eion of-their Lordships, that a short time before the
Chri3t was recess, the Finance. Minister of time Coun-
try', at an unsual period of the Session, and in eir-
ctimnstanees of extraordinary moment, anticieated the
customery statement of the Finances of the current
year. Tne reason assigned for ibis proceeding was,
the necessity of laying before the Countiy a true
pidute of Its Finances; he was relieved trom
much trouble on the score of reference, as his state.
ments.respetting that display of the Finances, were
drawn from *a publication which he had reason to
believe was ushered into public notice under the
authority of Ministers, and therefore it could not
be, conceived to contain a false account of those
statements. Notwithstanding these specious ad.
vantages, the effect of this publication was to delude
every monied amm who placed confidence in it. oa.
this head he could say much, but the COnsidera.
tiLin of the subjed, in the view he alluded to,. had
better be left until the teal Budget of the pre.
sent year should come forward, which in- the
course •of a few weeks may be found necessary.
Among other points of finance, that statement ex.
hibited the melancholy expedient of a loan ; but the
question was, whether that was the last time such a
Measure should be recurred to ? Thai publication
contained also a statement of the revenue and ex-
pendittire of time country, and laid before the Public
the comfortable view of a surplus of even e million
sterling. What the eireft must be of Such a state.
ment on die Public at large, and on the Mettopolis,
may be easily conceived. It was not lung, how-
ever, before doubts were entertained of the truth tsf
these statements, and they had nearly fallen into
complete discredit, when a Noble Lord was pleased
to step forth,' and contend that the calculations in
question, instead of being ekagger,teed, were
below the truth. In considering the real
state of the question, he would undertake to
prove, that the aCtual revenue at that very time,
instead of 'yielding a surplus, was in fatft more than
two:Millioni below the Expenditure, which,, as the
reielt of that statement, exhibited a gees!, and in-
excusable error of at least three Millions Sterling.—
In another point of view, he contended, that the
aetual Revenue would be found to fall even four
Millions short of the Peace Establishment, as voted
by time other House of Parliament in November last.
In calculating those points, hc should take the year
as ending the eth. of January, and lie ILA no
hesitation in taking his ' Statements iron) the Docu-
ments he had before specified, that the statement
made by the Financial Minister on the loth of De,_
cember, was full of the grossest fallacy. His
first reference would be to the 19th page of-the
PubliCation alluded to, and there the supposed
expenditure WAS stated to be in the aggregate
t 1,530,0001. from Which were to be dedutted the
2.171115 for the Irish proporti,n,, and also the Irish
charges upon the Consolidated Fund : but afterwards.
was to be added a charge of soo,oool. which would
make the total mipposed, expenditure of the Navy,
Army, Ordnance; anti miscellaneous services, to
amount to -10,533,000% for Great Britain, In this
part of the calculation he 'had to observe, that one
material article of expence was entirely overlooked,
namely, the extra buildings in the Navy, which
this year amounted to s' 0, 0 . —The average
amount of . this
.necessary expence -during the last
e
Peace was about moisol. pet annum ; hut alloW-
ingffor the various differeecei which had taken place
since that period, he thought the average expence of
that department could not he estimcted at less than'
700,0001, per annum, which; added to the other
articles of Expenditure, would form a total of
tr,2334lool.—this would be the aggregate whets
the expellees could be reduced to the amount stated
in 'the Speech. In considering the amount of the
Revenue, as set forth in the same publication, the
Noble Lord argued, that certain ,heath thereof were
not accurately discussed. He alluded principally to
the.;rOnsidetation' of the Land and Malt Taxes.—
He then passed to a review of the Statements in the
Consolidated -Fund, and described the real free Re-
venue its only that which was disposable after
the payment of the interesi of the National Debt,
and charges of the Sinking Fund : this was stated as
amounting, to .J 0,599,9001. to was added,
after• the produce of the Lottery. (in calculating
which, his•Lotdship seemed to say, -there was some
mistake)the expeeted contribution of 500,0001.
from the 'Revenues of India. In this part. of Imis
Speech, his Lordship took occasion to panegyrize the
Administration, and the 'abilities of the Noble
Marquis, at the head of the Government in India,
whose talents, great as ,they were, in Nego.
tiatiun, War, and Civil Goveinment, were,
perhaps, exceeded by those he possessed for mat.
ters of finance, a ground upoa which his enc.
mien had unaccountably strove, to calumniate him ;
but this reference, his Lordship observeA, na.
totally depended *upon the continuance of Peace in
India : this and other points made the supposed
total of the Ways and Means to be 11)595,0001.
from which, after deducting the hypothetical ex n.
diture, as set forth in the same document, left an
imaginary surplus of 1,032,0001. In contraverting
these statements, his Lordship entered into a va.
Hey of detailed calculations, drawn; as he had be.
fore observed, from the accounts before theilouse,
signed by the Secretary of the Treasury. [Of these
'our'contraded limits allow us only to attempt a very
faint sketch.] He first adverted to the different heads
'of proposed fellation, upon which the foregoing con.
clOsicms weredrawn, and which it would be surrilu--
qus tO observe, were in the present circumstances of
this Country-totally out of the question. He would
consider what the anual situation of the Country now
would.
• betJ7kr.er time be
heats of time
proposed
teturamy, to red
i°llicarriVe' the
into
expencesirt the SUM pl'Opl!Seti, 4 liumber of about
ze,ooo teen should be reduced, which, according
to the plan of disposing -the Airily., would, at about
the period
.of the delivery of the King's Message,
not have left one foot soldier to Great Britain. In

tie
t

head of.Retitift

lit ;ton prnposeu tar um sT,, • : , -
1,540,000'. wit, intended to be saved, and t;) do th,
he calculated about rS,OOO men 'must In! rednu.,'. :
this, according to the newly broadted dothine that 1
Ships might be ready fir sea Wirl:Olit wit, (a Ido;b) .
may be pratlicable enough ; but were the Reituttina
attually made, we should now have no Navy fit fur
service. Alter skewing the • impraeticability of.
those intended reduEtions, and calculating upon the ' I
indispensable expellees of the anual Establishment, I
Ile contended, that the permanent Establishment,
as arranged even in November last, would be •
'3436,000h ; a diminution was a consideration of
possibility, but a considerable: increase, one. olgteat
probability. His Lordship then proceeded tar Vie ' '
consideration of the real Income of the Nation, and •
after touching upon the various sources from which
it was derived, and the indispensible charges to be
made thereon, he calculated the total or the actuall
cured his
,andhis. Means to meet- the real Expenditure of
~
the Country, at not more than 9,682,000 l• Fie /
then adverted to the Austrian Loan, upon which,
after commenting upon its origin, atd the important
circumstances connened with that meastne, he dr.
intee„ralenucealaciunl:utinotnedtitt
statedni3k pa
tr oavbioosPiuiotinl'i+Dotnir, otrio;laoetl .Lt tPeburereissluoribn'oegdf theiPr: Parliament
which
oe tg
let:-
ortlatebro,uth9e,:tgis7odo,olt.itat the free
i
culated, together, with the heats of, ithel'it?cchli lte:111;
statement he had given of the Supplies :In W'ils ~
and Means, would evince the deficiency he lod el
tmt'lvith staring, of more .than two Milikais Siff. .
ling- The Noble Lord then proceeded to vs:cola.'"
the different heads Of Revenue and Expendicu I.'• 101
a.. more enlarged %calk..., aril proceeded to detnonsuge
deficits to a more con.iderable aincmitt. ii."ken
concealingepat It mi upont tritethe ti.•:rni;al
41.1);(.:ii
atirf Minis te : s , in "ter'
Country, than coming forwarCilitic:arintllitAllPyce:o°tll/1:1:t - j'''
the exigencies of 'the caw, and at once render the i
Revenue coral to the 'necessary Expenditure of the
Country ; and condemned the system of the Palau' .
cal conduct of •Ministers, as equal'iy censurahlte ‘%,iih
the others. While he was thus engaged,
The Earl. of Colrg KIRI' rose t,t srlk t°
~amlier, anti proetetled to state leis reasons for dam'.
ing the Noble Leird outofordizr. whet, he 0..1) hint.
*elf called to order by
The Earl 0.- I. 4IL .I.' ' Ewho shorty stating '''.li
I—, .t 1~ •
the grounds of his interfere, ce• . -]
Lord Gh:LATILLE proceeded to comtnent ea il
the conduCt. of Niiniiters,' partico:.trly with tesPet l'
to their Financial measures. -At the s,!tne titnehedis.
'1
claimed all i.!eas of pet4onal animosity; sir i
from i:, that for several of thefts lie entertained tTl'e
he
warmest feelings of 'friendship and regard.
great objea. of his argument was to :thew that chef'
had' not met the Financial dillicolties of the
Country in any one instance. He adverted vt,
the salutary expedient of their predecessors,'°£,,
raising part of the Supplies within the Yell:
which he. thought—they acted unwisely,. as .'
as weakly, in not following up. Their alol-
tioltnteet of the System of Finance laid dutvo by
these Ministers,, had reduco them to the microbic.
ex client of Peace LUans, measures villich %Wild
.1-i.IC, i'
p.thy the operation of the Sinking Fund, and ' ''
k {'tiny
the gradual extinflion of the Public Debt ; "c,,i; 'by • •
cipaily condemned the Financial Systere in'''''' kft
Ministers, which, at, the end of nia Ye.'":',,,,tt
*ern -with-a real deftiritney of f,,u,._,Militiont,l'
and
Of the' boasted Surplus of a Million Sterl.llt: „re,
he insisted, that no Financial Minister, ":.,1'1; his
said,
duty,
in.dytt circumstancesy.t:heramounted
.ifEnaoauhurneirt,Country.-
ofveh,(.ir
unic'
the alual Revenue with Coe necessary E%Per' '
accuracy o f the
°ffromthethCe°ltaltriorjrcY6l 07ue:Lljualtiiitiiinrge
, r ,„•dea the
The Expenditure,
t,._ i.
Land
produce Of the Consol3irateod° h°-'uQnid. ;anadn4oftvtliA II!
. ''''
than i 1 not
and Malt was deducted, the deficiency w"l'' pro.
ai 10 RL4 IV D ae,e.. he
amount to more than about 3,400.°031* 'l".)e
'at° ' `
to
c is"
,:,
duccof the old Taxes.had, he said, increased '11,41..
of discussion in that House.- _III
protest 3 137al'n0s°t°ti.heipireae. tnlicuesf'ofil:valtevi:gr,
isltelanetetsconriliitiviit; I:
made in other places, and pamphlets,
-Expenditure of the present year, he, said, ti",,c3 • ~:t•
was undoubtedlyflarge, and i'ught not Jo' be t'1"1 ';'74i•
as An
that average criterion; but it liottlil be recolletet,; tv.
under the present circumstances of the
sour'C"l'l. d.
,•::,
of the Spoiler. adverting
..:,5
cY ';'l'
Lord PALII.4ItI likewise defended the A6°3, ,
try, economy Might' only have invited thc •:4
~:Ate- -.•
of the Accounts, and .. j:.-tfied to snaking
*the ..--t he
,-....:
meats which had been made in other placckg„ic,_.::-;•.!
subjeet of discussion in that House. Those
~i id ::'
Counts would have ,hven much better diseus%„dy
another place, were the 4 could ha v e been l'r?r''
met by the person who smug it them fortvar'd` 00,.,
severe invedi we had been, made against th3l,llllca.
It3iuotn it
whichllnu ll'tia .11).eb erfe'tert)aill el
uetilet at
in 'I eCT:l11 lit:- lt)tel C(ll;ltile.).tidbealle
upon,, that it had been stated by that Pers°"' ~,,,t1
it Nould he necessary to make the Revenue CI e..
to the Expenditure.
He. 'observed that the lial),i..-
dal Loan could not with any propriety be c.d°74
tiered 'as a Subsidy, but as a Loan to be po•
Austria. „ . set'
Lord GtENVILLS and Lard'AUcict.Ato

explained.
The Bisbc" of ST. RS API! said, if it was ille(!i;
ly a question whether the Accounts on the.1.4"1
were correft or not, it might certainly be proPerkir
appoint a' Comtnittee,ro investigate them, in ,r'i,
that, ilthere were errors,-they might be dete4'gt;
and if there were not, that the Accounts atigh' re-
and
unsugpeeted and unimpeaehed. It wa9, l''''"
ever, to be considered, whether this was the 1.11,7
meat for entering into such an investig3tino. 'll,'
WAS peculiarly to be consid-!red, beeause, rerh,''
at 11,, next meeting of that 11,npre they aou I.ia
Country might be called upon to unite in repre,“",o,
the ambition and chAstisiog the bid flith Pi ‘';
whom he coti!d not, perlw,, at the presevt niottlel,
call our Enemy, but whetn 1.. A ()01,1 clesigri3t .1
our must detestable Friend. •
w) 0 oc•
The Qnestion was then pot, lti.l the Mo
4
gativ.e.d mithout a dtvisinr. .
Lori ELLEIV/VMOUGH f.l-yrd it,r Jeave •“; "‘,
briog in a Pal for the better:l,l'oi Oing for tile'rilAt
cif Arceisstics in, Ow crime of wiltalk 4inking'"''
. . . 6i: ill'
sleiti.r:ing Ship, .61i I I.ir tilt ttt.ti ul i'ib‘fl ( :,:
.-..:.•,4"-*

.'' };
:. J. ~:

1

J

,

t ,avv
stood at present, he said rheie was no place
, • assigned for the trial of„persons who were Acres.
series to the crime of wilfully sinking and destroy.
lug Ships ; and in a very recent case, the grinC;pal,
Or rather the Instrument, had been`capitally punish-
ed, whilst the more guilty Accessaries have escaped.
He, therefore thought it was•highly important tl-at
some provision should be made in this instance, as
well as for the Aniendment of the'Law with resped
to the crime of Manslaughter committed on the
J High Seas. -
The NIL was then read a first time, and ordered
:i
to be reads second time on Monday.
f
Lord-Nut/at moved that the House •should ad.
l) journ to. Monday. 1 , ..
The Earl of DARNLEY said, he should refrain
from nioving an Amendment for the House meeting
to.morrow ; but he was, notwithstanding, -of opi.
nion, that under the present circumstances of the
!. Country, the House ought to meet to.morrow in.
stead el adjourning to Monday. He' then made
some observations upon the censure which had been
thrown upon him upon a former occasion by a Noble
and Learned LoroL
Earl SPENCER likewise declared his' opiniOn
for the House. meeting to,:thorrow.,:but declined
troubling their Lordships to divide upon the gilts.
tion.•
Thr LORD CHANCELLOR defended hi 4 con.
,
dui with respeel to the allusion made by the Noble
.
Lord (the Earl of DAR tatiey).andcontended that his
condo& did not warrant the imputation thrown
upon it .by the Noble Lord. As to the question
itself, he thought it would ,be highly absurd for the
1 , House to meet to.morro'w meeety for the purpose
of being the organ of communicating intelligence to
those below the Bar, or tothe Public at large. •
The Earl ofPArtxt. E Y explained.
. The question . was rthen put and carried, and the
House adjourned at half past nine o'clock till Mon.
day.
.. . .

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

FRIDAY, MAY r 3.
Trtt Bill for establishing a Free Market for the Sale of
Coals in the City of. London, was read a second,titue,.:rub
committed to a Select Committee; the Petitions against tile
Bili were ordered to be referred to the said Committee.
' Sir Geoitoz•Costr4zwiat, brought up a Report from the
committee appoint cui to try file merits of Contested. I• 3
!ion forilishop'S Castle, which stated that the sitting Mern-
°cu. Wit.i.tara Ctivr, Esq. and
.lonN RoarsisoN, Esq.
Aer unduly elected, and that the Petition-it frivolous and vet.
os.
A Person from the Commissioners of Excise presented se.
feral Accanmta relative thereto. —Ordered to lie on the Ta-
ble. •
The ATTORNEY GIEVERAL hronght up the Indemnity
Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a
second time on Monday.
On the Motion of Mr. )7 NS ITTA kr, the House resolv-
ed Itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Silver
Bullion Bill ; which went through time Committee, 'and the
Report was ordered to be brought up v Mc!
n oclaY next. •
The Committee on the Medicine Duty Bill was postponed
to Monday next.
The Militia Families' Bill was read a third time.
Sir Wll.4.lwra ELtoati proposed a Clause, by. way of
ruler to it, which the House . agreed to, and the Bill
passed.
Mr. Ross( gave notice that he should move on Monday,
that the House should agree to the three last Resolutions of
the Coninuttee.appbinted to try the tricots
,of the
,Ilchester
„ Elettion, and that an Address be 'presented to His Majesty,
praying that hc would order the iktrORNE Y-Gl.stra
yrosecute the parties.
The House went into 4 Committee on the Bill for the bet-
ter Relief of the, Wives of Soldiet's and Sailors. Some verbal
alterations were made;: the Report was then ordered to be
brought up on Monday next..
A Message from the Lords stated, that they had agreed to
several Private Bills without any Amendments.
The -Irish Courts-of Law aill was read'a third, time, and
passed. •
The Committees of Supply and Ways and *ARS were
postponed to Monday.
gTATE..Of THE NECOTIATIOI4;
tird , GRANVILLE LEFESON said, he
rose for the purpose. of Moving,' that the House
should at its- rising adjourn tilt to.morrow. • In
snaring this Motion he would not, repeat the argu.
ments which ha been urged on 'Friday last, which
appeared to him to be unanswerable.. The events
which- had occurred since, Friday appeared to him
cunlpletely' to justify those who' voted against, the
• adjournment till Monday. • It would he in the re.
colleftion of the House, that lheintelligence- which
arrived after .that discussion completely contradia,,
ed.the.statement :which had been made by the Mi.
niiter. After the Right , HUM Gentleman had
stated, that Lord 'Whitworth hats left Phis,. it.
surely was a matter of sufficientimportance to haye
Communicated to the HouseoaSaturday that he,had
not left Paris. Lord Whitworth, , it. ,was . under.
stood, remained at Paris, because some further pro.
Positions bad been made ; similar circumstances;
might again occur; but at all events; it was proper
that the House should be at its post to receive. any
communication that Government might be enabled
to make on so important a subjel : he, should
therefore move, " That the House should, at its'
rising, adjourn till to.morrow."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said; he apprehended, that independent of the 'oh.
jeaiori which lie felt to the Motion of the Noble
Lord, in point of substance,there was one; in `point
of form, which rendered it, he presumed, inadmis.
Bible. Such a Motion, be,believed, was never al.
• lowed to pass in that HoUse : as matter of cottrse,
tile House would adjourn to to-morrow, without
any Motion, unless it-should specifically determine
to adjourn to some other tidy ; and, therefore, the
Noble Lord's Motion was' needless as well at.unpre.
cedented t the only way in which the Motion now,
befOre the House could be regular in terms, would
be that of an AmendMent, to a Motion to adjourn
to some future day,:neither would that be agreeable
to the regular, practice, until after asost of the hu-
siness whieb constituted the Orders of the Day wits
over: the Noble Lord would, therefore, allow him
to say, he was not well advised with respect to the
terms of his Motion.; he could have wished that the
Noble Lord bad given notice, that after the Orders
of.the 'Day, were disposed of, he should bring
forward this subjtA, any Motion should !he
made r - adiQurn over. to.morrow ; .rind the, Noble
Lord wookl allow him to--say also, liat until 3
Motion of another deseription was made, :this
course was irregular ; but the ',Noble Lord would
8"" `crave tin opportunity of sorsinitting the
substance of his present ''MOtion to the 1-leitse,
tor he intended to move that the House do at its
iinit; adjourn to Monday next. Having said. this
upoo tLe total, he would now with the leave of

snbitance of the MotiOn of the Ni;Ule LOrd. The
Noble Lord had said, that the .cirCurtiitenees which
had occurred had disproved. the statement m;nle
His •Majesty's Ministers : the Mlle Lora ;vas
not corred in, that statement. The statement made
by His Majesty'sMittistets was not disproved by
the circumstances 'which. hail anually occurred.---
It_ was stated by him,
.this day seinnight,:n,-,tthat

he was convinced that Lord Whit wortE had quitted
Paris, for he had no knowledge of the faEt, but that
he had reason to apprehend it, and that apprehension
arose- froth his knowledge of the fad that General
Andreossi had, applied for Passports. It was an in-
ference of his front this fad and accompanying cit.,
cunititances, that Lord Whitworth had quitted'Paris,
and he then believed that Lord Whitworthhad-qoit
.ted Paris ; but he never said Lord Whitworth had -
quitted Paris,--he made no such declaration. The
Noble Lord had expressed hiti regret that the House
,did-hot sit on Saturday last, and he had added his
conviction that many Gentlemen,. and this was..a
circumstance worthy of observation, that many
Gentietuen who voted in the- majority foran ad.
journment to Monday, might regret the House did
not sit. Now, he knew of no reason why tha t
'.event should have excited any regret in the minds
of any of the Gentlemen who voted in that .majo.
rity ; he was, on the contrary, convinced it ought
to be matter of satistaftiOn on the part of those who
supported the Motion, that the House did not sit on
the Saturday, as proposed by the amendment moved
by an Hon. Gentleman. He alluded to the eireet
-which might have resulted from their Sitting On
that day, and he begged the House would pardon
him far nut staring his reason for. saying this. It
was, however, his intention, if the Noble Lord had
- not superseded him, .to propose that the House
should, at its rising, adjourn to Monday next, and--
that he intended to propose exidly as usual, with.
out any comment, beirig pettedly prepared, how-
ever, if any question was put to him by any Met.:
ber of. the House, to answer it as distinctly as he
Could, consistently with his duty. On Friday last
he had stated to the House the opinion whiCh he
entertained, which was, that Lord Whitworth was
On his departure from Paris. He was notable, at
present, to make any communication whatever to
the House, or to, express an opinion whether Lord
Whitworth was or was not on his way from Paris,
hut there was no probability of any information.
whatever. being received, so- as to enable him ,to
make any communication from His , Majesty to
that Itouse to.mirrow, The.Srentcete *svOLLI4 ob.
serve on the: regularity of the, Motion now before
the House, after which, be presumed, the Noble.
Lord would not persist in it ; and it sO, he should
afterwards move, that the House dO, at its rising,
adjourn to Monday next.

/1/e.C4NNthq observed, that the Right Hon.
`Gentleman who had just spoken, had stated two
objeetior4sto the Motion now before the House :
one in point of form, the otlici in point of- sub.
stance. If, in point of form, the Motion was de-
fe4live, the Motion must fall,. because• it was
irregular ; hut, until he heaid that' from.the Chair,
.he should bet much inclined tei doubt the irregularity
of this Motion; and .he doubted icon the ground,
that the list Motnin upon this subjet, which was
this day se'nnight, was entertained.—On that
occasion the Right, Hon. gentleman Moved, is that
the boost do, at its rising, adjourn to Monday
next:" and the amendment proposed to that was, to
insert' to-morrow," and that was in substance
the Motion of his oble Friend today, and as all
the Rules of the House were founded 'on good sense,
he saw no reason why this Motion Should not be
entertained in its present form—he could not'enter
into any distinction which the Right: Hon. Gentle-
man intended to take, for hecould'norsee the dif-
ference between debating a thing in the shape of an,
original 'Motion, and that of debating -the same
. thing in 'the shape of an amendment to an original.
Motion. The Motion now before the House was'.,
the very same thing in point of sense as the Amend_
.meat moved this day se'nnight by an HOnouralrle"
Gentleman, anti which was debated for several.
hours in that House, without any body being re-
buked or corrected for it. He was not aware ho*
the matter could he objefied to now, not havin,e
been objeCted to then. He
,confessed, however,
.after having heard the statement of the-Right Han:
Gentleman on his own Convielion, that the meeting
of the House to-morrow would not enable him to'
make any-Communication to the House ; he should,
for one, not wish to press for a division -; bin here,
again, he must take the distinetion of the Right
Hon: Gentleman, who .said he had forMerly spoken
his opinion,'as it was formed inconsequence of the
condun of the French Ambassador; that from that
cotidud he drew certain inferences. The Right
HOn. Gentleman was, however, he hoped, speaking
not again on conjeaore, but from some assurance
that to-morrow he would not be able to make any
Commtmieation to. the House.; if that was the eitse,
the Houle should not take the trouble of meeting, be.
catiseit would be only meeting in vain ; but then he
wished to understand the Right Hon. Gentleman dis.
tindly whether he now said, that he should not be able .
to make any communication to the House to-morrow
If he did not say so, he thought the Hattie should -
be pressed- to a division, anti he 'should press it to
a‘division, in order that those who felt as he did,
and.as his Noble Friend felt, that this was not a
time. when the House of commons should consult
its own east, nor be even too scrupulous in adhering
to its own usages, when either might 4c al variance
with its great Public Duty. On. the contrary, it
was a time when the House of Commons should he
unremitting in its labours, for the purpose of at--
tending to the interests of the Country : the House
of Commons was the, proper •organ for conveying
information, from the Ekeeutive Government to the
People ; it nught therefore to be an irs post, and
be vigilant; nor could he help Ihinking, that a
communication from the Executive Government to
Parliament, was a more constitutional source of, ie.
formation, than a. placard on die Stock Exchange,
upt*s the question of Peace and War.. He did nor
think it consistent with the. duty of the House of
Commons to put itself into a .situation in,which
r the.wauld not have the means of receiving infor_
mation from the Eiectitive Governtrient arid eon-
veying it to the ;People, and
,that.. for- no better

' %nullity.
. „
11.4. CHANCEL.QI; i'll3l. EY.:IjEt2:I.IER 04.
served, :that the osservations of :the last Speaker
were fairs upon Cu supposition that a Cotrimunica_
timr,might be mad: to the House to.mossd‘o on the
substance of the Motion now before the Hoitse ; but
on the regularity of the Motion he should appeal•to
• the Chair, from which the House would derive cor-
led knowledge tydri the subject :- he jihould be
ashamed to refit' to his own'khoWledge, although
his attention had for Many yeari been difeaed to
the subjeCl.• He appealed to the Chair, whether,
unless an Adjournment was proposed to a day after
the morrow, it ever was expressed other thaoas he
had stated-'—oatnely, " that this-House do no'w ad-
- j.:urn. What he Itad said • this night, had not
'been correctly repeated. lie had said, that'he was
thoroughly convinced that no Communication would
be made to His Majesty, to enable His Majesty to
make a Cominunication to the House tomtorrow—
he thought that no Communication ought to come
from His. Majesty. to that House, until it was
known that the Negotiation had taken a satillaCtory
turn, or was totally broken off—until Lord Whit.
worth had arrived in this Country. He begged
pardon, he knew he was irregular—he would go
further, and say, he saw nu probability of being
able to make aoy, Communication whatever to the
House to.morrtiw--tliai svas his opinion ; but if he
thought there was a chance of that, he should think
it ioetimbent on him to make a Motion to adjourn
to 'Monday 'next, because he could not reconcile it
to %elm was dde to the Dignity' of the House, or to
the feelings of this Country, that -the House shoold
sit titi an unusual 'day, for the mere chance of a
ComMunicatlon. The present Motion was not
formal or regular, and on which, therJore, no
proceeding- could be had. • • -
Mr. GSM' said, that the motion of the Noble
Lord was in'sociV a forM, that the House could. nut
Consistently with rules, and with stria propriety,
adept it ; but after that motion was disposed 'of in
point of form; the House would have to consider
whether it ought, under the present extraordinary
circumstances, to adjourn to Monday, or to sit to.
morrow.. When assertions came from such authority
as that, offthe Right Hon. Gentleman, they came
with great weight : if 4 was convinced ,that no
communication cotta in r4et be made from His Ma.
jesty to the House to.morrOw, 'he, should accede to
S!le inltiwi of AdiOtirOWOJ t 0 Monday ; • but when.
the Right- Hon. Gentleman expressed, some doubts
opoO that matter, and as it might happeo that the
fisose might require some ioformation which the
Right Hon. Gentleman might thinis .improper for
hiansto communicate, he owned he had some.doubts
as to the prOpriety•.ef adjourning even to Monday.
He wished the Hotase to recollect a little the situa.
lion in which it was: it was now a week since
the Right Hon. Gentleman made
,an important and
alarming communication, which disappointed • the
House of almost' all hopes of an amicable termina.
tion to the Negotiation: Since that, the Right
Hon. Gentleman stated to the House, that untl:re.
• seen and :uitexpeCled circumstances had prevented
• Lord Whitworth from leaving Paris on the Wednes-
day, yet that matters would in a few days come to
a decisive issue, and that he expeded information
in a few days. Now he wished the House to con.
shier its,situstions and examine into the-propriety
of adjourning over tomorrow. He knew that: on
the day when the Right Honourable . Gentle..
man had stated that Lord Whitworth was ex.;
pried to have left Paris, intelligence had arrived
to certain Members in that Flouse, that night while
the.HoUse. was sitting; he' hid received intelligence
himself that very night in the Hoe. , that Lord
Whitworth. land nut left Paris, for the truth of
Which, if doubted, 'he- could appeal to many of
his friends about him. Now he wished' to know,
how the Right Hun. Gentleman conid be sure that
'the decisive result, •of which he bad spoken,
m would
not arrive here to.orrow.? How could he say
.such decisiVe result might not adually arrive this
night before the House adjourned ? Why, then,
was it too much to asks that the House should sii
to.morrow, when the Minister 'would, according
to, all probability, be able to state to the House
ihat.decisive result for 'which the House and the•
Public had so long and so anxiondy waited I Let
-the House remark th tilifereoce of the situation
now and that of Last I, . On last Friday the
. Minister told the House t . t no intelligence could
It
arrive that night, an assertionsfaisitiedby the event,
for intelligence did arrive, and at the very some-
time %ellen the Minister said there was none. The
Minister had said to.night, he was glad the House
did not sit on Saturday last ;and he beerrh,tl to con.
gratulate the House, that it did not assemble ;
.and
as a Minister he seemed to express a great deal of
desire to hnpress the House With an idea of mystery,
and to create alarm, for he 'had expressed much ap.
prehension from the consequences which might Nye
followed if the House had sat on Saturday. What
these 'Cruisequeocer might have beers, besides time
Public deriVing information froin the proper Chan.
eel, he Was unable to comprehend. Now the •
Honk was told, • that, information could not ..be:
given to-morrow i he hardly Saw why not ; he'
thought; there was ,every probability that the
Messenger would arrive this night or tosmorrow
morning.--How then could the' House he said-to be ,
in a state in which important 'commonication might
not be made to it ri.anorrow ? '' No,'' said the
Minister—and why i •," Because, forsooth, my Lord
Whitworth is not ;strived. in this Country." Nosy
the noose would recoiled, the Right lion. Gentle.
pats told them last Friday,' that all the Papers by
which information, was to he conveyed; were actual.
ly in the Press.; he should be glad to know.-why, as
Ministers were in possessiorr•of4that decisive te..
suit which the Right finn,:!Gotletitan talked of,
shotill not the anxiety -ofAhesjflouse and of the
Ptibi ic. be relieved,' 1-le.scould:l-14 comprehend that
I;sarrival of my Lora Whitworth should be essen.
tial icor tht purpose. - Bat the communication may i
be ,oelt as that His .Mejesty's issliOisters.migh( not:
Wish It) lay too soon Wore titet Mime:, to which,
he would answer,. any inlomilt ion Was • better:than
suspense. ; and alt tai; arguin,:lzs (,1 the Cu,sric C L.
L 0 R 1,1 the I' c 1-1 F.,,,y; r. k, it i!tds!ed An t COOlti be
cilledArgu;nent• whits' ,eonsisted:ooly Of asstrtion,.
sFood on rite suppoSit ion of an uolorsseen rssult,
whielt he haired was riot hogii-cs but which would

to t3it kl`r4Nt be; tVli;stt lae ifdPel
to udr honour and sittisiadirn;
the thile bithe House niisspefit in waiting folsoii.:i';
result; But Sattitday -was an ;O; ilre
House to sit. He *wild not io over that arAs-0rn61,,..
nvich at he would observe; tlor rt wJi
by no means uncommon for the .1-rotrse to sit cry
Saturday, for the purpcise oftrausading, Very
mon and ordinary, and sorri-!irces e7en prilite
ness. 'Upon these grounds he intist sal, th'ai
not satisfied by what he had !mud rrom- the
ster, concerning the propriety of the flotise'a.sooro,:
ing until Monday.- The Right Hon: Gentles ni
said, there was no probability of any inforMation
arriving to enable His Majesty to,Make a Cotruttu.;
nication to the Hous to-morrow, and that ellen;
communication could not be made until My Lon!.
Whitworth arrived in this Couniry if this was th 4
rule by which we were to judge, hesatv no reason
to conclude that we 'may not fie in the same situa.
tion next Friday as we ate at this moment.' '
The CHANCELLOtt of • the Excqitto F. rt. filth; te....;
ferred to the Chair, On the subjed of the regularity
of the Motion now befire the House.
The SPEAKER said, thOnefore the debate pro.
ceeded.any further, lie rose to say, that to the fornti
of the question proposed by the Noble Lord to'be
put to the House, he was' not prepared to state to
the Houte, from hiS.own memory or reading,'•anr.
one instance, except, that of last Friday, of such a
'A/lotion being offered to the House in such terms,
and it did not appear to him° to be consistent with
the orders and forms of the proc,:rdings.-of the'
House.

The CIii:NCELLOR efrtbe. .6XCHEeCIER
saidichat the Hon.Mernber who bad just sat dOwri
had stated, and•stated truly, tbat on Monday last;
he informed the House, that probably the discussion.
at Paris would be .brought to a'alecisive result in the,
course of a-few.days, that-of the fldlowing day,
Wednesday morning—it was perfedly true, he had
said so, and he wasaustitied in expressing,that con..
vidion, but circumstances had occurred which did
produce some delay, but Whiclrdelay would be
• considerable ; what these circumstances were, he
was sure the House would not'ask him to disclose,
but it was on those circumstances of that delay, that
he Should desire • the Noble ~Lord to withdraw his
Motion, arid then move thOt of 'which. he.r had this
night given notice. • .
The NAtle Lord', Motion was then withdrawn.
l'he'Crt4sieeLLok of the ExcusQueit moved,
that- the House should at its rising adjourn to
Monday next."
Mr. HENRY .I,4SCELLES said, he wished to
say'a few words, merely to defend his own coatis*
tency with reference to the vote .%vhielt he gave oti
Friday last, and to. the condua he shotild adopt
this night.' When the question of adjournment was
proposed on Friday last, he gwe his vote upon the-
.best judgment he could exercise upon the merits of • •
the question, and he was still of opinion, that in
giving the vote he did upon that occasion, he had
aced consistently with his duty. With resped to
the question now before the House, he was still of
opinion that it would be better that the'House should
sit tomorrow, but, for the reasons he should give,
he,was determined to give no wits upon the subjeft.
After the vote he gave on Friday last, he, fa-11nd
hiMself in a situation which he-did not expect;, he
had stated in the few observations which he had
submitted to the' House upon that occasion, that it
Was by no means his intention to prejudge the ge,
neral question, btiu when he came to vote. he found
himself voting with Gentlemen, who were generally
considered as the syStematie opposers of Givern.
'merit (here there .'was oer) et' Order"), he meant
that they were always in the habit of Opposing
Ministers, and therefore he was sorry he had give()
that vote,. as it might appear as' if he had, to a cer. -
tain degree, prejudged the question-.
Mr. FOX said, he rose to say a feW words, in
consequence of some•ObservatiOns which had fallen
from the Honourable Gentleman, and which ap-
peared to him', to b a little 'singular. The Hun.
Gentleman lamented that he had been induced to.
vote on Friday last, with those whom he charade.
rised as the systematic oeposers of Ministers, but
as the Houisurable Gentleman.hait 'stilted, that he
:had voted upon the merits, of the question, he did
not think that the vote he had given called fur such
strong marks of penitence. If thee-Honourable
Gentleman felt such concern, for once voting with
thc systematic, opposers of Ministers, he might
frequently be placed in an unfortunate' situation,
because whenever these systematic opposers happen.
ed'to agree in opinion with him, he would be un.
der the necessity of not.vdting for a qUestien which
he approved, or he must vote ih•coMpany'he did not
like. • But however unpleasant the Honourable
Gentleman's situation would be in that point Of
view, it would be still:mory so, if he should hap,'
peri to take a similar dislike to the systematic tin f 7.
porters,of/Vlinisters, for then it would he extremely'
difficult for him to deeida, IMO 10 should vote. The
Honourable Gentlemanbad shewn much more peni.
tence upon the occasion', than in, his opinion it re-
quired, because he had. declar.d, that he had voted
according to the bust of his judgment, upon the
merits of the question, How such a vote could be a
subjea latnentation, he could not immediately
discover, because he always understood that to be
theway in which Member; of Parlianient might 'to
Vote upon every question. Brit the, 'Honourable
Gentleman seemed' 'ids° to labour under some appre. .
!tension that he might-be supposed to have prejudged
the quotion; bow the Honourable. aentletnati Came
to entertain such an -apprehenston,; he could not
'imagine, because there was not one word said upon'
the question of Peace or War, in the discussion to
which, the' Honourable Gentleman alluded. 11,
hoWever, the Honourable Gentleman kid prejudged
the qnestiott by his vote that day, it would gratify
hit curiosity very highly, if the Hort.litrable Gen-
tiemarvwOubi tell. Mitt on which side he had pre.
judged it, for without atome farther ieformation, he
was really unable to form a. goo upon the •fitthjed...
Did the Honourable Centleman'apprehend,, th,it byvoting ll
with the systematic opposers of l‘preiut.
liintstietr:;',
who were- genertilly cPtoijercd. itsi strong •advocates
for Py;:ii:c,..bc,might stn.iloseo to have
the qa:.!stion am favour: of Pen; ? If thjt w 4, 014
cause of die i:lonourab;e Gentleman's atom, h
only t Ipok at some of the company, with MIOIII

vanish; There were some Ger4lemen who sat to_
wards the lOwer end of the House, to whom, he
4eti-ereeti the epithet of " blood hounds" had, in
some carbliration, been applied; who had voted
with hint on that' occasion, and if they were at all
culpable, it wits not . from any extraordinary an.
xiety which they had evinced for the maintenance
of Peace, He wOuld, not, however, investigate
this•subjedany longer, he could only say, that he
was utterly unable to conceive what was the ground
of the Honourable Gentleman's repentance, or on
which side, he had prejudged the question. With
regard to himself, he should prove his consistency
y voting in the 340)e way that he had done' upon a
former -occasion. The Right Hon, the.CuAsfo ELs
LOR of the Excll EQUUR had laid down a principle,
to which he could by no means accede, via. that no
communication could be made to the House till Lord
Whitworth had arrived. If that was a regular
rincii)le always to be acted upon, he could not ac-
count for what had fallen from the Right Hon.
Gentlernan on Monday last. He then said, that
the disctissions would be brought to an issue on
Toesday or Wednesday, and that he would be
enabled to make a communication in a few days,
meaning evidently in tlig+ourse of the present week,
though supposing Lord Whitworth had left Paris
on Wednesday morning, it was not probable that
he would reach London in the course of this week,
It was therefore pretty evident that the Right Hon.
Qentleman was not, quite so much, attached to this
point of form'on Monday last as he now appeared
to be,. The Right Hon, Gentleman had said, that
circumstances had arisen which led him to exped
that the answer would not come so soon as he had
expected, and Which circumstances were in some
degree the ground of his present Motion. He
could not. guess what those circumstances were, nor
did he wish the Right Hon, Gentleman to explain
them if it was improper, but certainly if the points
in discussion were to be decided on Friday, the in-
telligence-might reacts this Country to-night or to.
morrow ,Morning; and certainly if there was any
thing to communicate the House ought to be at its
post to receive it, He did not mean to enter into
the. question of derorum, but it certainly was no
unimportant matter that the I louse and the Country
• Allduid know its fate with regard to the question of
Peace or War as, soon as possible. It had been said
that no communication could be made respelling the
rupture of the Negotiation until Lord Whitworth
arrived at. Dover ; but he begged
.the House to re..
rolled, that there was another alternative : suppose
the Messenger should fortunately bring the intelli-
gence that all the differences were settled, would
st net be material that.the House should receive
goirmaxakation to-morrow, rather than on Monday ?
and certainly it could not be doubted that that House

wits the proper channel of communication between
the King and his Sabietts. He did not mean to throw
Any blame upon the Rt. Hon. Gentleman, but he could
put help observing that he had been mistaken- in his
cyek‘..tation three or four times, but us it arose from
circumstances which he could not foresee, it CQr-
iainly. was riot a ground upon which any blame
I:th:id be nttributed to him. With regard • to. the'
delay which had taken place in Lord Whitworth's
departure, ho was of opinion that that Noble. Lord
hid acted hi a must .judicious manner, in deviating
*rain the ipltrltaio Av ns isieh it was generally sup.
be. hm.l rectbi v ed, and he could nut help
hoping dint it might tend to a mire .favourable
issue "of the discussion. rUpon these grounds, he
of opinion that the House ought to meet to.
pioerow, though he should not take the sense of the
I louse upon it.
Lord ifiIiriCESBURY said, he should adopt the
claw linp of coodua, and upon the same grounds,
that he ht,d upon Ftiday last, viz. that i; was not
usual to It on Saturday, unless there was public
business of great importance, or even private busi.
!less, where the objet was to have some proceed_
irtg, or to take some step ; but when it was proposed
so sit without the possibility of•any protveding on
the: part of the I loce, he thought it more consistent
with the dignity of the House that they. should fol.
jaw ilia usual course, and adjourn till Monday.—

lis Righ! Hon. Friend had Im/ •stated that there
was no Frith:lin:iv of any communication to.Mor.
row he 11,:id only said, that thcre was no prohahi.
lity of a communication from 1-.lis nijesty : and he
did not think it con3isrent with the dignity of the
House that they shouhl depart from: their usual
mod; of proceeding, merely in the expeftation of
receiving ,an oral communication, upon which no

proceeding could be bad. It was perfetily true,
that dace the declaration of his Right Hon. Friend
pn Monday last, a probability of delay had occurred,
but he hoped it would not be a delay of many hours;
it was owing to circmustances which it was not
pecewry now to explain. The. lion. Gentleman
pad stated, that there were two alternatives, and
that the ionic might be in favour of Peace, which
;night be immediately .communicated to the' House.
pot even iti that Case, he was not aware how any
official Communication could be made to the House,
because he believed, though he did not speak with
perteet certainty, that it Was not usual for His Ma..
rho, to communicate the-result of any Treaty that'
was ctinCitultfl until it was atlually ready to be laid
before the House. fn the_ event, therefore, of a
satisWtory, arrangement, be did, not see that it
coed lead to an official communication to-morrow.
hod these circumstances, he saw no possible ,be.
pefit that could result from sitting to-morrow, think.
ing as he did, that the mere chance of an oral corn.
nionication was not a sufficient ground to jUstify the
House in departing from its usual mode of proceed.
if ig.

—Mr. MARTIN, of Tewkesbury, said, he was
disposed to think favourably of the present Mini-
ster 4 till he /ward something to induce him to change
opiniOn. He only wished to ask them what
r e,ulti result from their sitting to.morrow„, and
to be 3 them to consider whether something might
not occur that might draw upon them the displea,
sore of the Country and the House.
pr. LAWrtl;`44:,;g iti a few Words. isftef which
Motion was agreed to,