The Sun.
London, England, 1858-01-28 00:00:00

DECISION OF A SCOTCH SALMON

FISHING CASE.

A case which has excited great interest among
Scottish fishermen was decided on Wednesday. The
proprietors of fisheries iu the river Allan and its
branches instructed their clerk, Mr. Galbraith, to
prosecute one Shaw, a labourer, for having, " near
the cathedral of Dunblane, and county of Perth,
or there, wilfully had in his possession, on Thurs-
day, the Ist of October inst., 1857, certain molts
or fry of salmon, or other fish of the same kind."
Shaw was defended by J. M'Lean, Big., writer,
Dunblane, who denied that the parr found in his
possession were the fry of salmon, or other fish of
the salmon. A great many witnesses were examined
as to whether the fish in question were the fry of
salmon. Seven witnesses spoke from experience
to the fact that parr, in their opinion, are not
salmon. Dr. Johnstone, deputy-inspector of hospi-
tals, gave, along with Dr. Paterson, of Bridge of
Allan. anatnmical evidence to the effect that the
spinal column of the grilse had oti vertebrae, whilst
that of the parr had 59. The bones of both
were fully developed. On cross-examination, Dr.
Johnstone confessed his ign.. ranee of fish in general,
and could tell a cod from a salmon after they came
to table, but nothing more. Sheriff Graham
decided that the fish were not salmon, and that the
complainant should pay the costs.
" Soon after the result was known," says the
Stirling Journal, " great excitement took place in
the village. A band of music made its appearance,
preceded by a large crowd, some of them bearing
flags, one of them with the inscription Let Liberty
flourish ;' while others bore fishing rods with parr
dangling at the end. Joy seemed to beam on
every face, and as the carriage containing Mr.
Galbraith drove through the town towards
Stirling, it was assailed with fierce shouting and
yells, accompanied in some cases by blows
which nearly smashed the windows. Altogether the
excitement was intense, and such as we have sel-
dom witnessed in Dunblane. The decision has the
effect of allowing anyone yilio likes to fish for Farr
in the Allan and other rive ; and as this is the
first decision in reference to parr, we have no doubt
it will rejoice the hearts of anglers in all parts of the
country. At the conclusion Mr. Galbraith took
steps to facilitate the bringing the case before the
Lords of Justiciary should he think fit to do so."

ABOLITION OP CHURCH RATES.

DEPUTATION TO LORD PALMERSTON.

Yesterday a deputation of gentlemen, representing
various Dissenting bodies throughout the country, had
an interview with Lord Palmerston, at Cambridge
House, to present a statement in reply to that made to
the noble lord last year by the "committee of laymen"
on the subject of chnrch rates.
The deputation was introduced by Sir William Clay,
Bart., and included the following gentlemen :—Messrs.
Charles Gilpin, M.P., A S. Ayrton, M.P., Donald Nicoll,
M.P., T. S. Duncombe, M.P., John Locke, M.P., W. Wil-
liams, M.P., F. Hastings Russell, M.P. ; Sir J. Duke,
Bart., M.P., Hon. George Byng, M.P.; Messrs. Arthur
Russell, M.P., J. A. Hardcastle, M.P., Thomas Alcock,
M.P., Edward Miall ; Rev. J. Burnet, Rev. F. Clowes,
Rev. E. Eckett, Dr. Foster; Messrs. E. Clarke, C. Curling,
J. Carwell Williams, J. F. Bontems, E. Swaine, H. Aggs,
T. Box, P. Carstairs, G. J. Cockerel!, Joseph Cooper, J.
Fennings, D. Childs, W. H. Watson, J. Cunnington, J.
A. Evans, W. Brett, J. M. Hare' W. Leavers, T. Mann,
C. S. Miall, G. Offer, jun., A. Pellatt, S. Saw, B. Scott, J.
Templeton, E. Clarke, G. W. Davison, T, Carter, T. C.
Tuberville, S. Allen, T. E. Parsons, J. Finlay, H. S.
Skeats, Hull Terrell, W. Heaton, W. W. Oulton, together
with the following gentlemen from the provinces ; Mr. G.
Attenborough, Seuthminster ; Mr. W. Bond, Cambridge ;
Mr. Bantock, Wolverhampton ; Mr. J. Bagnall, Car-
marthen ; Mr. J. H. Chaplin, Fulbourne ; Mr. E. Cooper,
Coventry ; Mr. E. Craig, Braintree ; Mr. J. Copland,
Chelmsford ; Mr. S. Courtauld, Braintree ; Rev. J. C. W.
Drave, Hanley ; Rev. E. H. Delf, Coventry ; Mr. S.
Dickinson, Wolverhampton ; Rev. J. Dring, Wilburton ;
Mr. G. Dawbarn, Wisbeach ; Mr. J. Durant, Poole • Mr.
J. Everett, Luton; Mr. W. Ezell, Reading; Mr. E. Evans,
Windsor ; Mr. W. J. Etches, Windsor ; Mr. S. Grundy,
Luton ; Rev. W. Griffiths, Derby ; the Mayor of Oxford ;
Mr. J. B. Grierson, Bridgnorth; Mr. T. R. Hill, Worcester;
Mr. T. F. Potts, Newcastle ; Mr. E. Plant, East Retford ;
Mr. T. Pidduck, Hanley ; Mr. 0. Prentice, Ipswich ;
Rev. J. Pyer, Devonport ; Rev. W. Robinson, Cam-
bridge ; Rev. D. Rees, Braintree; Mr. E. S. Robinson,
Bristol ; Mr. W. Somerville, Bristol ; Mr. G. Sully,
Cardiff ; Mr. T. Simpson, Preston ; Mr. S. Unwin, Col-
chester ; Mr. G. Vicars, Hull ; Mr. J. C. Woodhill, Bir-
mingham ; Mr. J. S. Whittam, Coventry ; Mr. W.
Walters, Haverfordwest ; Mr. W. Willis, Luton; Rev.
C. Winter, Southminster ; Mr. W. Hammers, Farnworth;
Mr. F. Dobell, Maidstone; Mr. J. Baker, Andover; Mt.
J. Williams, Abingdon ; Mr. J. Wiles, St. Albans ; Mr.
W. Paine, t. Neots • Rev. G. B. Johnson, Darwen ; Mr.
W. Thomas, Fairford; Mr. J. Tramper, Windsor; the
Mayor of Folkestone ; Mr. B Abbott, Hitchin ; Mr. J.
Nunneley, Market Harborough; Mr. J. A. Richardson,
Long Sutton ; Mr. T. Urquhart, Liverpool ; Mr. W.
Baines, Leicester ; Mr. W. Jull, Staplehurst ; Mr. W.
Barnard, Stroud ; Mr. P. Brown, St. Ives ; Mr. A. Pegler,
Southampton ; Rev. J. H. Millard, Huntingdon ; Mr.
Alderman Noble, Boston; Mr. W. H. Hawkes, Bishop's
Stortford ; Rev. G. W. Conder, Leeds; Mr. J. Sidebottom,
Manchester ; Mr. S. Marling, Stroud ; Mr. T. Coote, Fen-
eteneee 'fir C. Tebbutt, Bluntisham ; Mr. 3Z. Brown,
Fairleigh ; Mr. W. Lankoctor, auuttlanaptOri ; Rev. J.
Fletcher, Christchurch ; Rev. W. Best, Ramsey; Mr. J.
Coombs, Bedford ; Rev. S. S. Hall, Chatham ; Mr. J. L.
Foster, Hertford ; Mr. D. Pratt, Cuckfield ; Mr. S. Dickin-
son, V,.olverhampton; Mr. J. French, Chatham.
Sir W. CLAY said it was not his intention to occupy
the attention of the noble lord by going into any general
argument on the subject of church rates. The present
was not a fining opportunity for such discussion, and,
in the next place, the deputation were of opinion that it
was unnecessary, as they had every confidence that the
noble lord was agreed with them that the change of the
law was absolutely necessary, no matter what minor
points of difference might exist as to the manner of mak-
ing it. The object of the deputation was to furnish the
noble lord with evidence that in nearly every part of the
country there was an earnest and unabated desire for
the abrogation of the law of church rates. The gentle-
men composing the deputation had all of them extensive
opportunities of knowing the state of feeling on the sub-
ject, and it was their conviction that, among members
of the Church of England and Nonconformers there was
a widely spread and unabated feeling in favour of the
abolition of church rates. They were of opinion that
the continuance of the impost was a violation of the
rights of conscience, and that its existence prolonged an
excitement which would not otherwise exist among
neighbours and their friends with whom they were in
agreement on all essential points of their common faith.
They were also of opinion that there was but one effec-
tual form of abolition namely, that the abolition
should be entire and without compromise. They con-
sidered that all other modes of abrogation would be un-
satisfactory, and that it was no longer possible to find
any substitute from general taxes, They further believed
that any attempt to continue church rates, exempting
Dissenters from the payment of them, would be an inex-
pedient, mode of altering the law, and also a fertile
source of fraud and dissension. They were also of opinion
that a partialabolition of the rate, such as the exemption
of certain localities, would also be inexpedient, as it
would keep alive a source of discord and irritation
among the people. Another object which the deputation
had in view was to present certain statements with re-
gard to church rates, and to exhibit a different view of
the results to be obtained from the returns laid before
Parliament on the motion made by Lord R, Cecil and
himself. Certain inferences has been drawn from those,
which, in the opinion of the Dissenting body, were in-
correct. For his own part, he would merely say that in
his opinion the question at issue rested upon far broader
grounds than any to be drawn from the number of those
cases in which church rates had been agreed to without
opposition. With regard to the number of parishes in
which church rates had been so granted, he fancied the
general result would be different if the respective popu-
lations of the parishes were taken into account - but,
as far as the number of parishes was concerned, he was
willing to admit that there was a numerical majority
of parishes in which the rate bad been collected with-
out opposition. He drew, however, an entirely. diffe-
, . rent moral result from that state of facts. It appeared
to him that to show that there were a great many parishes
in which no opposition was made to church rates was
n, y to show that without any compulsory law there
would be no difficulty by raising funds for the necessary
maintenance of the fabrics of the Established Church
throughout the country. Again, in cases where there
was an opposition, there was an illustration of the injus-
, tice of the majority forcing the minority to pay a tax for
which they had no equivalent. In fine, if he were asked
to sum up his opinions in one sentence, he would say
, that where there was no opposition to the collection of
church rates, a compulsory law to collect them was use-
less, and that where there was an opposition such a law
was unjust. (Applause.)
Mr. A. PRLLATT, as representing three Dissenting
bodies, presented a memorial describing the feeling of
the great body of Dissenters against the continuance of
a tax which they contended was so obnoxious that, if it
did not now exist, no legislature would think of impos-
ing it. The memorialists called upon the noble lord, as
the head of the Government, to use his influence with
his colleagues to remove an impost the payment of which
the whole body of Dissenters regarded in the light of a
grievance.
Dr. FOSTER then read the statement. It contained,
spun out to great length, the allegations and arguments
with which the- public has long since been not only
familiar but fatigued.
Mr. COURTAULD, of Braintree, next addressed his lord-
ship, and submitted that church rates were a grievance
to Dissenters, because, by paying them, they were
compelled in violation of religious freedom and tee right
of conscience, to contribute to the support of religious
services to which they objected, in respect either of form
or of doctrine. That support was virtually the same,
whether demanded for the services of the Church or fur
the necessary repairs of the building in which such ser-
vices w,re exclusively conducted. Church rates were also
a grievance, because Dissenters were taxed in violation
of conscience for the support of the religious services of
others, while they had to support also the entire charge
of their owo. Again, church rates, originally an equal
tax upon all, when all were of one communion, were A )w
by the prevalence of divers communione, a tax on all for
the exclusive benefit of one—a national impost appro.
priated to party uses. (Hear.)
Mr. THOMAS URQUHART, of Liverpool, said he hall
been requested, at a meeting of the ratepayers of that
town, to lay before his lordship a few facts in connection
with church rates there, and to show how the church.
wardens had managed since the impost was refused.
The rateable property in the parish of Liverpool was
upwards of 1,300,0001., and it was paying for the main-
tenance of the poor at a rate of above 125,0001. a-y are
The inhabitants of Liverpool, from their voluntary con-
tributions, bad, i,eaLlee, built and maintained 56 Church
of England churches (including two corporations and
four parochial churches, which were maintained from
pew rents, from the corpora ion funds, and endowments
from the parish and town council) in which they pro-
vided seat accommodation for 60,749 parishioners, and
instructed 26,000 children in their day and Sunday
schools. They had also erected and maintained 99 Non-
conformist and Catholic places of worship, aceommo
dating 102,750 of the inhabitants, and instructing
54,500 children. The parishioners thus taxed them-
selves for 155 churches and chapels, and gave
religious and moral instruction to above 217,900
souls in the parish. They therefore felt it was un-
just to tax them to maintain two parish churches which
mined sittings for nearly 2,600 of the rector's flock,
Waish he stated to 1 e 400 000 nubs, of which bele were
only 80 communicants in both churches, and only 440
children in the schools belonging to them. The speaker
went on to state that on two several occasions church
rates had been refused in Liverpool by large majorities ;
that after their refusal the congregation, by a voluntary,
rate of id. in the pound, raised not only the necessary
funds for the repair of the fabric, but also considerable
sums which were expended in substituting rich stained
glass windows in place of the old ones, in relaying the
aisle of the church of St. Nicholas, and 'many other
improvements ; the result being that at length the
churchwardens had abandoned the idea of propo-ing a
compulsory rate at all. (Hear, hear )
Sir W. CLAY having thanked the noble lord for the
attention he had paid to the representations or the depu-
tation,
Lord PALMERSTON sail—l of course understand that
the object for which you have done me the favour to come
here to-day was that I might fear from you the various
opinions which you were desirous of making known to
the Government. It was my duty, therefore, to listen
with due attention to everything that might be said.
I do not fancy you expected that I should argue
the question with you, or state in detail what
may be the arrangements which the Government may
e able to propose to Parlisnient. We have, as you know,
pledged ourselves on two or three eccaeions to propose
a measure to Parliament. What that measure may be it
will be our duty to explain when we shall have prepared
it. We as ere prevented last year a, d the year before by
a variety of circuinsta,ucee, by matters of great import.
ance, and by the impatience of Parliament to close the
sys‘ion, from submitting a measure on the sul ject. I
am still in hope that we may find time this session
(although there are questions of great importance to be
disposed of) to propose a measure to Parliament. Of
course, the gentlemen whom I address are too much men
of the world, and know too well the bearing of great

questions, not to be aware that, although they may be
unanimous in opinion, there are, on the other hand,
large bodies who may entertain different opinions ; and
that with regard to measures affecting the entire of the
United Kingdom, or at least England, it is impossible
to suppose that one party can carry fully and entirely
into effect all the wishes they may entertain. (Hear.)
Therefore, without at all entering into the view which
the Government may take, I would only wish to remind
gentlemen that there are many difficulties in the way,
and that it is not altogether quite so easy an arrange-
ment as some eager persons may suppose. I can only
therefore thank you for corning here. (A. laugh.) The
Government will feel it their duty to attend to the state-
ments which have been laid before me, and which I will
also submit to my colleagues, and I am not without
hope that the question may at length be settled in a
manner satisfactory to all parties.
Mr. A. PELLATT—\ViII your lordship have any objec-
tion to state whether yon have prepared any measure,
and whether you think yon can bring it forward in the
present session
Lord PALIIERSTON—Some time last year we gave our
best attention to the matter, and we had a bill nearly
ready. Whet may be the time, consistently with other
matters, to propose it, I cannot take on myself to say ;
but I assure you we feel the importance of the subject,
and are anxious to propose to Parliament something
which we may consider entitled to due consideration, if
not to the acceptation of all parties.

Mr. T. DIINCOMBE, M.P.—.The reply which your lord-
ship has given is quite consistent with that which you
gave me last session. We now understand that your
lordship will not enter into any positive agreement, and
therefore we cannot consider the Government bound to
introduce any bill dcf ng the present session.
Lord PALMERSTON-But we wish to bring it in.
Mr. DIINCOMBE—We have been limited to wishing for
a long time. (Laughter.) I will now, however, ask
this question—Whether, if an independent member
should bring in a bill for the total abolition of church
rates within a limited period—not to-morrow, but two
or three years hence—will your lordship give that inde-
pendent member's bill the Support of the Government !
(Hear, hear.) The Government pave to Sir William
Clay's bill ifs support on the second reading, leaving it
open to them to introduce such amendments as they
might think proper in committee. Now, I ask, sup-
posing a similar bill be introduced, will the Government
give it their pupport on the second reading, reserving to
themselves the right to propose amendments, and allow-
ing a similar freedom to deal with such amendments
(Hear, bear.)

Lord PALMEBSTON-My answer is that Government
have under their consideration a plan. You then ask
me whether, supposing a private member were to intro-
duce a bill founded on a different plan, we would agree
to the second reading, with the object of converting the
bill in committee into our own bill. That is not, in my
mind, a very convenient mode of legislation, for it is
easier to make 10 new bills than to amend one—
(laughter)—l mean it i., easier to bring in one's own b►ll
than to convert another person's bill ; and, in my
opinion, if we had a fair prospect i❑ the course of the
session of introducing our own bill, that would be a
much better arrangement than to carry out my hon.
friend's proposition.

Mr. DUNCOMBE—Then, on those grounds, you would
oppose the second reading of the bill

- Lord PALMERSTON —I don't know that. (A laugh.)
Mr. DIINCOMBE—Then, if we wait for you and you
wait for us we will never get on. (Great laughter.) We
will, in fact, be ix the same position as we were in when
Sir W. Clay's bill was before the house—that is—you
will leave the question just as you found it. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—That shows that the course you
propose to adopt is not calculated to advance the
question—l mean that one person bringing in a bill and
another person taking it up is not the way to advance
legislation.
Sir W. CLAY—You are quite right in supposing that
two things put together do not make a third. (Laughter.)
Although my bill was read a second time, i so happened
that in point of fact we never had an opportunity of
trying what might have been done. with it, as it never
reached the committee.
Lord PAL3fEßSTON—Gentlemen know very well that
when a private member brings in a bill on a great public
matter with regard to wbich there is a very strong
difference of opinion, he is not so likely to get a day for
its consideration as the Government, night. (Laughter.)
A MEMBER of the Deputation—Those are the usual
tactic., my lord. (Laughter.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Those who are against a measure
generally avail themselves of what they believe to be the
beet means of defeating it.
Mr. J. Lowee, M.P.—We understand your lordship
to say that if a private member were to bring in a bill
you would not object ; but that there slight not be day on which it could be discussed. If the Government
would not oppose such a bill, but would allow it to be
read a second time, it is possible that a day might be
spared for discussing it in committee.
Mr. DIINCOMBE—What we wish to establish ie, the
principle of the total abolition of church rates within a
certain time, and without any compromise.
• Mr. AYRTON, M.P., said it would not be difficult to
find a day for the introduction of a bill, although it
might be difficult to find days in which to pass it through
the successive stages. He begged to submit to the noble
lord that it would be satisfactory to the country if the
Governnaeut were to lay their bill at once before Parlia-
ment, so that their views on the subject might be
ascertained. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—I think, upon general principles,
it is not advisable for the Government to bring in a bill
in one session with the clear prospect of not being able
to pass it in that session, for, should they not be suc-
cesful, they would allow the measure to stand over
until next session to be shot at by all parties. I think,
as a general principle, the Government does better by
bringing before Parliament such measures only as they
have a fair prospect of passing ; therefore, I must not
be understood to make an engagement to bring in a bill
without a fair prospect of passing it.
The deputation then retired, and a meeting was
subsequently held at the Thatched House Tavern, St.
James's-street, to consider what steps should be taken
to give effect to the wishes of the deputation.
Sir W. Clay having been called to the chair,
Mr. bailee said he thought there was but one opinion
as to the result of the interview with Lord Palmerston,
and that was that they must not look to the present
Administration to assist them in carrying a measure
for the abolition of church rates. A bill had already
been introduced, the principle of which bad been eon-
firmed by a considerable majority, and he presumed
the best course to adopt would be to reintroduce Sir
W. Clay's bill as early as possible, and bring all their
influence to bear to make it the law of the land. (Hear,
hear.) He concluded by moving the following re-
solution--" That the deputation, having heard the un-
satisfactory reply of Lord Palmerston to the statements
this day placed before him, cannot return to their respece
tive homes in the provinces without declaring their
determination to press forward without delay, and 011
their own responsibility, a bill for the total and uncom-
pensated abolition of church rates."
The resolution having been seconded, was carried
unasio o sly ; and, on the motion of Er. FoeTeu, it vrea
also resolved---" That the deputation especially recall'
unmenitd the friends of religious liberty throughout the
ed Kingdom to contest the making of rates in all
parishes, even where they may be in a minority, h being
a matter of common experience that even the opposition
of a minority may practically prevent the levying of a
rate."
A vote of thanks was then accorded to Sir W. Clay
for presiding, and the meeting separated.
A soiree of the Society for the Liberation of Religion,
from State Pa'ronage and Control was afterwards held
at the Milton Club, Ludgate-hill, when several addressei
on the subject of church rates formed the principal topic
of discussion.