The Sun.
London, England, 1867-06-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAIYIENT

HOUSE OF LORDS—LAsT EVENING.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his scat on tho woolsack
at five o'clock.

PRIVATE BILLS.

Enfield Gas ; Seabrook Harbour and Docks ; Water-
ford, New Ross, and Wexford Junction Railway Company
(amendments) were read a third time.

IRISH RAILWAYS.

in answer to aluestion from the Earl of KIMBERLEY,

The Earl of DERBY said that there had been nume-
rous propositions as to the lines of railway in Ireland, and
it had been referred to several committees of gentlemen on
both sides of the question, and it was therefore evident
that the utmost fairness had been exercised in the matter.
After a few other remarks, the subject dropped.
ESTABLISHED CHURCH IN IRELAND.

EARL RUSSELL moved for a return of all the
matters connected with the Established Church in
Ireland especially as concerned its revenue, and said
that he did so with a great deal of responsibility, for
ho know that already they had a great question
before them. He would not ask them to consider it this
session ; but the object of his motion was to prepare their
minds for the discussion of this anomalous question in the
next session. It might be urged that the Church
of England in Ireland was a great advantage to
the country, but still there were not many facts to be
adduced in opposition to the enforcement of the Liturgy of
the Church of England. Through many years had there
been such enforcement, and in the time of King William
he accepted the Crown of England on condition that no
bishops should be enforced upon the country of Scotland.
The consequence had been that order had been
preserved in that country, and we now saw the wis-
dom of William the Third and Lord Somers in
their administration in that country. He now came
to the condition of the kindred kingdom of Ireland, where
even now distraction prevailed, through the fact that the
same wise regulation had not been carried out- there. It
struck him that, if every farthing could be obtained that
might from that establishment, it would not give satisfaction
to the Irish people. The noble earl then animadverted
upon the enforcement of any Established Church in Ire-
land. He would direct their attention to what was said on
the subject. Mr. Grattan had said that unless there was given
some concession in Ireland there would never be any quiet ude
and Sir Robert Peel, whose clear mind almost instinctively
grasped the question, said that there would be no peace
or harmony till such concession was made. It had
been stated that there were two religious hierarchies
in lrellnd, the one which represented the minority, the
other the majority, and would it ever be feasible that the
two should amalgamate ? Would the one which- was ex-
cluded, and yet was an aspiring rival, be likely to tolerate
the other ? It was evident from the tone of the Irish
that the prophecy which Sir Robert Peel uttered
in 1817 was confirmed in May, 1867. Was it to be won-
dered at that when men saw that one portion of the popu-
lation had all the temporalities to their own Church, and
they had none, that they should be dissatisfied? It was
with the people of Ireland a sentimental wrong. Holding
it to be necessary that the subject should be immediately
and thoroughly considered, so that any required legisla-
tion should not be relegated to a future reformed Parlia-
ment, ho submitted his proposal :—" That an humble ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty
will be pleased to give directions that by the operation of
a Royal Commission or otherwise full and accurate infor-
mation be procured as to the nature and amount of the
property and revenues of the Established Church in Ire-
land, with a view to their more productive management
and to their more equitable application for the benefit of
the Irish people."
Lord CAIRNS, after remarking that Lord Russell's
opinions respecting the division of the Irish Church
estates had undergone an entire change within 12 month;
proceeded to deny that the temporalities of the Irish
Church had over been the property of the Roman Catholic
Church, claiming for tithes the strong right of prescrip-
tion. He admitted that inequalities did exist in the appli-
cation of the Irish Church funds, but insisted that the in-
come was not in larger proportion to the members of the
Church than in England. The destruction of the Esta-
blished Church, whose function it was to teach the truth
would, he contended, produce almost fatal social and po!-
litical consequences to the landed interest and to the con-
nexion with this country ; but he disputed the necessity
for any such extreme measure as the infringement of rights
sanctioned by law and long existence for the sake of fur-
thering the views of the Liberation Society, who were far
more earnest in the attack upon the Irish Church than
were the people of Ireland, and strongly urged the house
not to assent to the motion.

Lord KIMBERLEY replied to what he styled the "no
surrender" speech of Lord Cairns, insisting that if his argu-
ments were to prevail, no Parliamentary interference with
the Irish Church could ever take place. The proposition
now suggested he regarded as extremely moderate and
just, and it was precisely because he did not desire to see
the object of the Liberation Society accomplished that ho
supported the motion. The Protestants of Ireland were
the greatest friends of England, but their sympathies
would not be alienated by an act of justice which extended
to the Roman Catholics and Presbyterians a share of the
religious endowments now monoplised by themselves.

The Bishop of OSSORY said that on former occasions.
inquiry had shown how unfounded were charges that had
been brought against the Irish Church, and the same re-
sult would follow on this occasion if a fair investigation
were made. He moved that the proposition be amended
by adding to it, "And also as to the means by which they
may be made best to promote the efficiency of the Esta-
blished Church in Ireland."

The Bishop of DOWN allowed that thero were serious
anomalies in the distribution of the Irish Church revenues,
and suggested a plan whereby he thought this could be
remedied.
Lord CLANCARTY opposed the motion.

The Duke of ARGYLL, dissenting from Lord Cairns,
contended that tithes were not the property of the Church,
but a reserved rentcharge upon tho land, with which it
was in the power of the State to deal. He therefore dis-
puted the absolute claim of the Irish establishment, or of
the Roman Catholic Church, to those funds. Adverting
to the Irish Church, be expressed satisfaction that its
claims as a missionary Church had not been put forward ou
the present occasion, as he disputed the propriety of the
andthe rueganierndinags
tSht
ea t o a tror
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ae
ddeu tya
to f
thepr o s el
periodyt s in ge
f one not made with the Irish nation, but only with
a small fraction, he argued that it could not be re-
garded as a bargain that had been definitely agreed to and
not to be reconsidered. Expressing a preference for an
eventual separation of the relations between Church and
State, he approved the motion, which was simply one for
inquiry, without involving a pledge as to future proceed-
ings. _ _

Lord DENBIGH thought the Established Church in
Ireland was an anomaly and a griovance, but expressed
confidence in the declaration of the Government to deal
fairly with the question.

Lord CLANRICARDE favoured the payment of the
Roman Catholic clergy, as being just and expedient.
Lord DERBY, after commenting upon the altered terms
of Lord Russell's motion, which would pledge the house to
the alienation of the Irish Church property, announced his
willingness to consent to the appointment of a commission
to inquire and to obtain information, observing that he did
not pledge himself to the principle that the property of the
Irish Church was inalienable, a remark that provoked
cheers from the Opposition and a retort from the speaker
that at least it rested upon equally strong ground as Wo-
burn Abbey. Lord Derby denied that hitherto the State
had endowed any religious body in Ireland, and said there
was no precedent for depriving ono Church of property
which it had enjoyed for 300 years in order to endow an-
other Church. The Government were desirous of consi-
dering the subject and obtaining full information, and,
then-fore, he suggested the limitation of the motion to an
address for a commission, without the addition of the latter
portion of Lord Russell's notice.

Lord GREY concurred in the suggestion, believing that

On the motion of Mr. DODSON, the following resolu-
tion was agreed to: " That a select committee be appointed
to join with the select committee appointed by the House
of Lords, as mentioned in the said message, to consider the
act 9 and 10 Vic., c. 20, and the standing orders of both
houses in relation to Parliamentary deposits, and the com-
pletion of railways within a prescribed time, and to report
what alterations it is expedient to make therein for the
present and for the ensuing session."
ATTEMPTED BRIBERY OF A MAGISTRATE.
Mr. MORRISON asked the Secretary to the Treasury
if George Edward Gurney, who was convicted at the
Central Criminal Court on June 11, of attempting to obtain
a licence to sell spirits by offering a bribe to the chairman
of the Kensington division of magistrates, was in receipt
of any pension from the Government ; and whether it was
the intention of the Commissioners of Excise to continue
his present licence to sell beer by retail ?
Mr. HUNT said Gurney had been a police constable,
and was pensioned in 1848, which was liable to be for-
feited in the event of a conviction for any' indictable of-
fence, but there was a discretion vested in the Home
Secretary. It was competent in the Commissioners of
Excise to claim its forfeiture or to decline to renew the
licence if application was made as directed.
STORM WARNINGS.

Colonel SYKES asked the Vice-President of the Board
of trade whether the Meteorological Committee of the
Royal Society find it practicable to renew the storm warn-
ings, as heretofore practised by the Meteorological Depart-
ment of the Board of Trade.
Mr. CAVE said the Committee of the Royal Society
declined to prognosticate the changes in the weather.
They proposed, however, to supply telegraphic intelli-
gence of the following description:—" Storms from the
west, Penzance, hoist signals," provided the expensps were
defrayed by the parties to whom the information was sent.