The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-12 00:00:00

They could not inquire into th's state of things under the
present system ; and was it not worth while then to have an
inquiry as to what the state of things really was.- (
He did not pretend to say what that system should be. The
right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) had been taunted withe
a desire to carry his previous measures into effect, J%
could not think this was handsome or liberal towards the
right honourable baronet, but he had no doubt that when
the right honourable baronet had all the lids before him,
and saw the disposition of Parliament, he would not be
bound by his original propositions, but would adopt that
Course which the general disposition of Parliament might
sanction. The honourable member for Staffordshire spoke
of middle school education, and said there ought to he
an inquiry into that subject, because persons in our middle
schools were not receiving so good an education as in the
poorer schools. He (Lord John Russell) admitted that
that education should be improved, but he did not suppose
that grants would be made by Parliament to persons who
had the means of educating their children, bet they
might
be able to send their sons to grammar schools, according
to the original intention of the charitaue trusts, and
which were capable of great improvement. If honourable
gentlemen would inquire into that subject they would find
that it only required a very slight alteration in the law to
enable the commissioners of charitable trusts to effect thin
object. He had the pleasure of carrying the Charitable Trusts'
Bill through Parliament, and he believed the Charity Com-
missioners were fully competent for their duties. The Chan- •
cellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Baines)was one of them,
and if he were entrusted with a bill, having the full confi-
dence of Parliament, everything could be done that was
needed. He knew the chief commissioner was very tandems
to have powers, by means of which great benefits could be
conferred. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Henley) had said
that in every scheme he (Lord J. Russell) had proposed he
had insisted at least on a knowledge of the Bible .being com-
municated to the children. He thought it would be a very
great misfortune if, for the purpose of putting an end to the
jarring of different religious sects, any system of secular
education were established is which religion should not he
made the foundation of all teaching, (Hear.) He could not
believe that more moral teaching would be efficacious, and ho
did not this k that moral teaching in this country indepent"
dent of the Bible would be anything but adverse to the Bible.
(Cheers.) He did not think it would be any use to appoint*
commiision to inquire into half time or anything of ttie kind,
and he hoped the right hon. baronet would not subetit to any
such mutilation. As to the expense, he thought it would he
very well °rapt yed in the commission, to whose in.veitigs*
tions he believed every squire and clergyman in the country
would render the fullest assistance.
Mr. BRISCOE said he had listened to this debate from the
commencement, and he hoped the right hon, baronet would
net consent to the amendment proposed, for that would de-
prive
the motion of its entire value. It would certainly roll*
der it insufficient for the object the right hon, baronet had in
view. He quite agreed with the noble lord the member for
the city of London that a secular system of education would
never meet the wishes of the people of this country. He
.
should not give his veto for the resolution except is its original
form,
Sir J. PAKINGTON, in reply, said he had- not said one
word about compulsion, but tad sought to show that the
grants at present made for the purposes of education did not
reach the lower portion of the population. Nor was be *ll,
advocate of the secular system. On the contrary, he did not
think that any system of education would be satisfactory
which did not embrace religious teaching. Ho believed that
if religious differences could be got rid of, the secular system
would speedily fall. Whilst "nen were quarrelling upon points
of religion, a vast amount of irreligion was growing up. 10
know that upon this part.cular question he was placed in the
difileulty of being at variance with many of those friends wits
whom he usually acted, but he could not understand the
middle course proposed by the Vice-President of the Bound of
Privy Connell. (Hear, herr.) He thought it would bo better
to abandon the motion altogether, than to prosecute the in-
quiry ineffectually. Much remained for inquiry, but after
the expression of opinion on the part of the Government, he
did not think it would be advis Lble to press his motion. (50
no.) But ho suggested to the Vice-President of the Privy
Council that perhaps the best course would be to let the re•
solution stand thus : That an humble address be presented t•
her Majesty, that she would be graciously pleased to issue a
commission to inquire into the present state of popular edit'
cation in England, and consider and report what measnreee
if any, ought to be taken for the spread of sound and cheaP
elementary education to all classes of the people. ( )Heat.
Mr. CO WPER said that this alteration would meet the
views of the Government.
The SPEAKER read the original motion and Mr. Itadiloldso
amendment.
Lord PALMERSTON hoped the latter would, be
drawn, and that the house would accept the resolution in Ile
altered form.
Mr. HENLEY could not accept the altere,tion.
Mr. HADFIELD having withdrawn b;.s amendment, the
original resolution was withdrawn.
The house then divided on the resolution in its alter"
form—
For the amendment.... Against it . .....
................ ..................... 11
9
Majority
SAVINGS BANK COMMITTEE.
Ou the motion of the CHANOELLOR of the E/C4
CHEQUER, the mere:ours of the savings Bank committee
were nominated.

CHURCH RATES.
Sir J. TRELAWNY movei for leave to bring in a bill Al
the abolition of church rates. He understood that ah.s.
Government did not object to the introduction of the bus
aud would reserve hie obseril.
o —(hear,
untilnar hear,the andseco second d ens! dhi laugh)_
Leave was, given to bring in the bill.
GAOLS AND HORSES OF CORRECTION BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this Var.
Bowyer's) bill,
Mr. SPOONER, objected " on the ground that the bill bad
ea
only been aeltvered to members that morning. He demurr
to the po iver which the bill gave to ministers of all dononainsi
tions visiting prisoners at all times, and of interfering with
the existing prison regulations.
32r. KINNAIRD urged the postponement of the bill. A
Mr. BOWYER said that the bill had been twice brought li,
'with the consent of the Government, and the simple-oWe°_,
of it was to secure the prisoners the spiritual consolaiion
ministers of their own religion. Safeguards were introduce", for investing the visiting justices with every necessary, re'
striction.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that this
bill must practically be considered a new bill—(hear,
it.
hear:
from Air. Spooner)—and as the Home Secretary was not Pre'
sent, he suggested the postponement of this stage of
(Hem., hear.)
The debate was adjourned.
SIR HENRY AND LADY HAVELOCK'S ANNUITY
The bill was read a thirdßlLL time and ssed.
CHURCH RATES.pa
Sir J. TRELAWNY brought up his bill, which was: read •
first time ; to be read a second time on Wednesday, the 17th• The house adjourned at ono o'clock.