The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-03 00:00:00

THE SUN LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 3, 1858.

SHARE MARKETS (This Day).

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

RAILWAYS.

Paid

RAILWAYS.

Closing ?Vat,
thls day

Easiness done
this day.

I Anibg. Nottng. Boat.
& Eastn. June....
Belfast & Ballyrnem,
Birmng. Wolvorh.
Stour Valley
Rirkenhd. Lancsh.
Cheshire Junct
11;lack burn .......
Biyth & Tyne original
£25 (lee. at .£45)..„
Bristol &Eseter 1
Caledonian.... ....... .
Chester & Holyhead
Cork and Bandon
Cork, Black. & Pass
Cornwall
Ds. A
Do. B
!Dublin&Belfa.st June
Dun. P. &Aber Juno
East Anglian
Eastern Counties
lEastcrntrnion,A. stk
Do,,Ndo(w). ....
... .....
East Kent
Ea ct Lancashire
East Suffolk
D 0....
Edinburgh & Glasgow
lEdinb.Prth.&Dunda.
Forth and ClydeJunc.
rFurness .......
'Glasgow & S. Western
Great N. of Scotland
'Great Northern
Do., A. Stock
Do., B. Stock
Gt. &IL &West. (Ire) 1
jOrcr.tWestern.
Do. Str.V.R. gua.St
/Irish South-Eastern.
Lancaster &Carlisle.
Do., Thirds
Lancash. &Yorkshir,
Do., do. le £l6
!Do. Do., £9 ...
Do., Wst. Riding Un.
Do. Southport.
(London & Blackwal!
Do. Now, ifs. 51.105.
Lond.Bright. & S.Cst
London &N. Wester
I: Do. Eighths
London & S. Weatlrni
Lndndrry. &Coleraine
Lndndr7. & Ennisk.
ilianch.Shof. &Lincln.
'Metropolitan
Nlidland
Do. Birming. & Derbx
Xidland G. West.(lr.'
Do. Shares
Newcastle &Carlisle..
NeTrpt.A berg.&firfd
Newry & Armagh
Newry, Warrenpoin;
& Bestrevor
Norfolk. ••••l/
Nortlln.Counties Dr.
North British
North Dcron, Rail.
Dock Stock . .......
IDo , A Stock .......
Do., B Stock .........
N. Eastern Berwick
Do. do. G.N.E.Purel .
'Do. Leeds
Do. York
North London
N. & S. Wstn., Tramp
stead, and City Jn.
'North Staffordshire
North Western..
N. & S. Westrn. June
Oxford Worcester &
Wolverhampton....
Feeble*
Portsntcuth

5 - 61

7i - 8i
68 - 70
10 - 11

400
100
100
all
all

26 -27 i
87 - 89
72f - 72i1
33 - 35

4 - 5

...al
7 811
16 17
59 60
45 47
30 32

144 - 154
88- - 90

60 -- 62
24 - 25

! 83 - 90
9A - 10
963 - 973
74 - 82
1.128
102 - 104
50 - 503
56 - 58

84 87
101 114:,
114 11h-
-881 804
lh a

-61 : 4

llYti - 108
88A - 89
1 - 16'
91 - 92

36 36
2 ld
891 90
62 61

9t. 109
50 3
St. 100
St. 100

St. 100
St. 100
St- 100
25 lel
St. 100
St [OO
St.. 100
10 31.1

12 - 13

59 61
d
441 45,1

20 17i
20 : all
10
St. 100

...

-
9 _ „

Rhymncy
Scottish Contral

100
100
100
all
100
leo

Scr)t. N.E.Abrdn. St
Do. Scot. Mid. Stock
Shropshire Union
tingbourne &Sheer
South Devon
South

100 ,South

all
18
all

r. Yorksh. RI r..r Du 7
Do.. . . ....... .
.IStaines,Wok.,otiok.

all Stockton A.;
20 I Do. do 1854

7 I Do, de.; lils

ItiiStockton S. Harticpl

1100 Tag- Vale
1.00 ID°. Pref., No.
22 I.l.l,ames Hat. D. &PL
100 Vale of ',loath
100 Waterfd. & Kilkenny
all .Watcrford&Limorick
all Nest Col nwall
all West End of London
and Crystal Palace
all Do. A

41 - 45
68i - 691
95 -

all j Do. B
all West London
all Do. First Class

all Do. Second Ciafo;,

6 -
7i -
8 - 9

27 - 29

6 5i

89 8
72 i
334

591 9 I

PREFERENCE SHARES.
25 all !Blyth and Tyne 10 p.
c•Pref. (ised.at 50I.) 48 50
St. 100 ,Bris.&Ex.4 p.c. St. 95 97
20 9 Do. 4 per c. Sha ,
St. 100 ,Caledn. £lO 43 p. e.llOO 102
St. 100 iChos. & Ho. 5. p.c. ...
St. 100 iDo. do. 5 per cent._
6' all Cork &Bantlons3p.o.
6i all Dun.Porth.kAber.J. 6 64
St. 100 !E. Anglian Cis. A Sh.
St. 100 Do, do. Chs. B 6p. e. 1112 -- 115
St. 100 ,Do„ do. Cls. C7p. c. 107 110
St. 100 Eas.Co.Ex,sp.cNo.l 115 118
St. 100 I Do. No, 2 ll3 116
St. 100 !Do. New 6 pr. c, St 132 131
20 all East tin,, G. 6p. c. 79 81
5 all Do. 51., 10 per cent,
10 all ;Do. 10/ Debentr•Sh. •.•
St. all 'Do. do. 4 per cent ...
St. :0() East Lancash.6p.ets
5 all E.&W. York. J. sth•
10 9 Edin. & Gl. sp. c. Sh. •
St. 100 .Ed.Prth.&Dun.4p.c.
St: 100 Furness, 5 p. c •••
St. 100 IGlas. & 5.W.G.5 •••
St. 100 Groat Northn. 5 p.c. 119 121
St. 100 IDo. 5 p. c. Redeem.
at 10 p. c. prem 112 114
St. 100 Do. 44 per cent • •••
100 60 Do. 5 p.c., Red. at 5
p. c. pron.
10 all IGt.N.ofScot.lstPrt lOl 17,1
20 all 'Gt. S& W. (Ireland)
20 all !Do. 4 per c. Prof. St.
50 6 Gt. 1V.(8.&H.Ex..7pc 51 Ri
St. 100 !Do. eon. red, 43 p.c. 91 93
St. 100 !Do. con. rod. 4p. c. 83 85
St. 100 Do. irred. 4 per lent. 84 86
St. 100 Do. sp. c, red. prof. 99 101 991
8 all Do, Jtirm. Pref. Sh 9 104
10 all Do. ChcsterSp.c.P.S , 16 -- 17
10 , all Do, do. sp. c, d 0... 91 101
St.lloo Do. Birro, Gna. Stk. 71 73
26 all Do. Chesil, Gua. Sh. 184 194
13; all Do. do, do .. 9.1 91.
20! all Do. do. do . 132 14!
St. 1.00 Lan.& York. 6 pc.St. 138 142
St. 100 Lon. &B. G. 5 pc. No.l
St. 100 D0.,P.,5p.c.5t.N0.2
St. 100 Do. New Guar. 6p. c.
St. 'lOO Do. do, sp. c., N 0.4 ..•
St. 100 Lon. & N.W., Coy. Sc
Nuneaton 5 r. et... -
St. 100 Lon. & 7 perct.
late 3d Shares 160 165
124 all Londy,& Color. 4Sh
14 all Lond,y.&Ennic. 1 Sh.
St. 100 H., S.,&L. 6p. Cent. 122 124
6 43 Do. do. do. £6 1
St. 100 Do. do. 34 per cent. 66 68
123, all Aarypt. & Carl. 4 p.c.
124 all Do. 43 per cent ••• •••
12 10,1, Do. do.
St. .100 Ifid.Consol.6 p.c. St ..• • •
St. 100 Do•Con•Br•Bir.6p.e l3B 140
St. 100 IDo. 43 p. c. Pref. St lO2 104 1023
St. 'lOO Do. L. &11, Pref. St 92 94
10 all New.,Aber., &c., pr
5 p.c.red. sp. e. •••
all Do. Perpet. 6 pr. ct. 11 111
1.0 I all isTorfk.Deb.4 p.c. Sh. 84 94 9
H. 100 Do. sp. c. Ext. 1546 ••• loa
H. 100 Do. 54 p.c. pf, 1817 •••
H. ',lOO Do.Wv.V.sp. ..,1847 •••
H. 100 North British lO6 108
7 34 Do.. 71. .erefercnee
'it. 100 N.E. Beres, 4 p.c. Prf. 97 99
17 , 84 Do, do. do 1
110 l3 !Do. Leeds 6 pe. No.l
.23 9 Do. do. Qrs., 1818 —
15 10 Do.York.H.&S. Par — it
10 1 all !North Staffordshire 23 24
4.1100 10x.,1‘,Tor. & Wolv.
p.c., Ist ;1111.1*. 117 119
1,100 Do. 6p.c. 2d guar lOl 106
it. !100 !Do. do. Dobeotr. St 101 103
8 e.ll Scot. Cont.Nqw Pro.
;t. 'lOO ISc.N.E.Ater.g.p.c. 113 120 120
;t, ;100 ,Do. do. 7 p.c. pf. St. 125
1. 'lOO ;Do. d 0.3 p.c. pf. St. 73 75
5 , all ;South Devon lO 10!
0 1 all I Do. fixed •4:A precut —
).6 all :S. Eastern "(Readier!
Ann.) of £1 taw. tl,l 23 24 23.3
t, 'lOO Do, per cent ... . . 101 113
t, t(X) Do. Fixed 43 p.c. Sh. . 101 1,03
t.. 100 Do, New 43 pr. cent
t, 'lOO 'S. Wales Gun. 4 p. c
St. I
, 1 aaWil ) .
2t c.,1'.4Dt0 ,e.csGpu. c.r 211 ° °B5 1:172:1
19 Do. do. (.19.

••• ".'". •
7 4• d

LOS - 110
25 - 26
81 - 83
421 - 431
21 -
- 35
(351 - 66!,
78 - 80.
13 - 15
7 - 5 H
9 - 31
- S 5

i;i - Fi

~• -

6 -

963 7
79 81 7

501 i

88i 9i

167 . 6
884 9 8* 1 i
91i

89i i i

44i 5 i

631 8i

St.
12.
12i
12,1

66
78j 9

'RITISH POSSESSIONS.
tOO I all 'Atian. and St. Law.
18 j 9 Botnbay,Baro,la, and
Cen.lnd,guar.s.p.e. 4 d Far
18 I all Do.
18 j all Do. Additional A j d par
20,31 all Buffalo clz Lake slur Bi —. 7.
100 9.oki Bra: 8rnt..44 °Odell' }RO 85
100 1100 6 p.c.:Nis., 1 Aug..7:',
Do. do., 1 July, 75 80
100 100 Do. do., 1 June, '74 73 77
20 2s. Calcutta and S. East. ... ,
20 2s6d Central Oude (Lim.
20 2 (Ceylon A shares 1 ;
171 al: Demerara.
20 2s. Eastern Bengal
St. 100 East Indian. 103 k 1044 1041 4
20 all Do. C Shares
20 5 Do. E. do. ........ *
100 all D 0.41 p.c.Ends.,'s9
20 all Geelong dt Melbourn,
guar. 5 per cent. 173 183
St. 100 Gd. Trunk. of Canada' 39A 403 40 393
100 all Do. 6p. c. Deben 172 75 74 5
20 all Gt. In. Pen. g. 5 pore ( 200 LOA
20 4 Do. Now. guar. 5 p.c !4d par
203 all Gt. Westu. of Canada 164 163 164
203 13 Do. New
100 all Do. Bds. payable '57 •••
100 all Do. do., 7G, p.'llo 105 108
100 all Do. do., '73, do.
100 all Do. do., '73, without
option IC4 106
20 all Madras, guar. 43 p.c lB 19
20 all Do. do., 5 per c. 204 203
20 15 Do. 4i p. c. Exton. Lid id
20 5 Do. 3d Ex., g. Sp.e. d par
20 5 Do. 4th Ex.. do. d par
20 se. Onde (Limited)
20 15 i'ciude, guar. 5 per c 4 p
20 all Do

St:
St.
St.
25

1.0.6'

FOREIGN.
10 all Antwrp &Rotterdam 5/ 51
20 all Ardennes ••• .••
20 3 Bahia ez FranciTco ld par
5 all Belgian East. Junet — I h
20 all Be zi ers to Graissessac
6 all Carmeaux&Toulouss
Coal Mines and Ry. 2/ 2i
20 15 Dutch Rhenish
20 all Eastern of France 25 251,
20 2s. Euphrates Valley
20 all Gt. Central of France
20 all Great Luxembourj 6l. - 7A
1G (i Italian Junction •• •••
20 all L...ce Cons'. & Bale
20 all Lierre and Turnhout
20 6 Lombardo-Venetian 3i 312
5 all Lucca a Plat.sp.c.p.
20 all Lyons and Geneva 23 24
331 all Maria Antenla
10 all Do. New ••• •••
20 all Namur & Liege
20 all Do. do. 6p. c. Pref 2ll 21.1 21/ a
16 all Northern of France 35 35/,,
20 8 Do. New
10 all NorwegianTrnk•Pref —9/
20 all Paris and Lyon,' 3Ol 301.
20 all Ditto New
20 all Paris and Orleans 49 51
20 9 Recife & San Fran ,
(Pernam) .7p. e. 1/ 1 d 8
20 11 Riga and. Dagnaburg
10 all Rome and Frascati,.,.
20 all Royal Danish •• •••
5 all Royal Swedish .....
4 all Do. 7 per cent.
2C all Sambre and Meuse_ 7R 7i
10 all Do. 5i per cent. pref. 81 9
20 all Southern of France l9l_ 201,
8i all West Flanders 4 5
10 all Do. 53 per c. Prat
20 all W.&N.W. of France 22 23§
20 6 Western of Austria —
20 all West. of Switzerland
6 all wies aden
6 all Do.B p. cent. pref.
20 Zealand ......... •••

St.
St.
St.
St.

lk. 6 pc.

JOINT-sTooK BANKS.
100 b 0 Agra drUnited Serv.
40 all Australasia
81 83 8211
2O all Bank of Egypt
100 50 Bank of Landau 45 47-
40 all Bri.CoL Bk.& Ln. Co
50 all British N. American
120 10 C.llk.of Ind. Au.ctel, 3
100 50 City 57 59-
100 25 Colonial ..
20A all CoramercialofCanada
100 20 Commercial of Land.
20 all Eng.ScotazAus.Cnt. l7i
20 all Lon. Ch. Bk.of A ast. 123 j 19
50 20 London and County
50 10 London Joint Stock.
100 20 Lond.andWestminst.
100 35 National Pro. of Eng.
20 10 Do. New •••
••• -- see
50 25 National Bank
•..
20 all New South Wales 43
25 all Oriental Bank Corp 34 36 34/
20 all Ottoman Bank
100 25 Provincial of Ireland 61 63
10 all Do. New
25 all South ik astralia 29
25 15 Do. Now
25 all Union of Australia 49 si so
... 15 Do. New 140 41
50 10 Union of London 233 241
100 50 Unity Mutual - •••
100 50 Wostrußk of iiond 49 17d

BRITISH MINES.
21111 Alfred Cons. (Philic.) 93 10,-;
20 14 (British Iron 3 4
▪.. 20 Condurow (Caruiirn.) tiO 70
10 1 Dev. Gt. Cnsls. (Tay.) 475 485
... 30 Eat Basset (Mogan) 85 90
17s ,Groat South Tolgns 15).!
I li3Ort.lV.Alfrd.(Philk.) 5i
7fiiGrt.W. Vor (llelstu. 13 -- 2
... 17a i Lady Bertha
... 8 N. Frances (Illog n) 8 9
N.W.Basset ((Mogan) 8 t 93
G/15 North Wheal Crofty 4 i 5.3
lh Par. Cone. (St.Blaxy) 18 19
9 Porkellis U. (Wend.)
... Os. Sort. Cons. Min. Co. 11
... 23 S. Caradon (St. Cleer) 39J -- 400
... 2S. Cant Brea (Illogn.) 23 34
... 19 S.W. Franees(lllogn.)l22s
5 4. TAM. S. &L. Kin. Co.I k
10 9 Tin Croft 3.} 3i
... 40 Un.Minen (Gwenuap)l 70 9U
12se V. of Towey (Camar.) t
14 W. Basset (Illogan) 24
... 20 W. Caradon (Liskrd.) 95 105
••• 5A Wh. Basset (Illogan). 180 200
••• 5 Wh. Duller (Rdrutli). 2. C 240
... Wh. Edward(Calstck) 4t b 4;
... 117 s Wh. Kitty (U. Llant) 8 9
... 8 WIL Ma. Ann (Monht.) 41 46
I 4 Trelawney (Lis.) 24 '= 6

(.1, PAU IN Atil% ISt le
20 I 74 !Australian
1 ; 108.1Bon Accord Cop. )
35 27 11r2.zilianItap.(hsued
at .E:5 pm)
30 all Do. Cocaes 4 Cuiada
20 15 Do. St.. John Del Rey 12 13 123
1 1 Clarendon Con. Min.
Co. of Jamaica
40 aR Cobra Copper 42 44
16 Copiapo
..•
1 all Dun Mountain Cop.
per Mining Co.
2 all Fortuna
20 all General
3 all Linares
5 1 Lusitanian
1 all Mariquita
1 all New Granada
1 all Novean Monde
••• ••,
20 all Po nt. S 0.14 M. +Ss Sin It 5 --7
5 1 Port Philip A
30 Idi Santiago do Cuba A
all United Mexican 3i _
MISCELLANEOUS.
1000 1000 Atlantic Tel. (Lim.) 1
25 19 ;Australian Agricult. 29 S 1
10 all lAustraln. Royal Mail 1 1/
10 all ,Berlin Water Works , 31 4
10 2 New iss. at 51. di
50 40 jßrit. American Landl
100 324 Canada lll7 -- 122 121
St. 100 ,Do.Go.6pc.Janicauly 113 114 1131 z d
St. all ,Copper Min. of Eng. 25 30
25 all :Do. Prof. 7§ p. cent. 25 --- 27
5 all Crystal Palace.. .....•• 1i —• 11 1;
5 all !Do. Preference ... 41 4i
4 all Crystal Pal. of Franey!
20 all Eastern Steam 3 -- 31
St. 100 Electricl-elegraph 103 106
1 all :Electric Tel. of Irel -•
5 all 'En.4Aust.Cop.Smeo 11•-• 11
10 I.os. Eur. & lnd.Jetn. Tel.•
9 all Eur.&Am•Stm.(lim..) 3 -- 34 3
20 ill Gen. Ir.Sc.Col.(lim.)
15 L 4 Gen. Steam Navigat.
20 5 London Discount lit I d
4 all ,Loud. Gen. Omnibm 24 2fi 2a
20 10 Magdalena St. Navig•
10 all Mediteran. Elec. Tel. 7r -- 8
10 all Do. Extension Teleg.
10 all Mexican& S.Americr
25 5 Nut. Discount Co 4
10 6 ;Netherlands Laud
10 all De. Do. 1 2
5 all Do.B p.e.PLiss.at ld It —2.;
5 3 Do. Do. 2E lid
100 80 Nev, B. &N. S. Land 14 17
St. 100 IN.S.W. Gov.s p.c."). 9 100 100
1 all N. B. Australasian 1
20 all Nrtli.ofEnropeSteam 311 2i 3
1 all Oriental Gas f 1
1 10g. Do New Shares al 4 r
5 all Peelltr. Ld. dr Minrl 2 2}
50 all Peninsular do Orients: 78 79 78.2 8
50 10 Do. New • 73 8 p
59 all Rhymney Iron . 22
100 60 Royal Mail Steam 59 • 61 601
1 all Scot. Austral. laves', 11 - 14
St. 100 S.Aus, Gov. 6 m.bds. 10/ IC9
25 all z3outh Austral. Lane 36 ar
1 all Submarine Tel. Seri] 1
1 all Do. Registered
20 5 iTrus:Ln.Co. Up. Can.
10C 214A1V3,n Dunnen'e Land..; 101 111'

that the State could not perform that duty. The church therefore, retard the proposal as th'n b
. rate was totally inadequate for the purpose. There scheme. (Hear.) They a"
1 g uts
visionary
dies oh rates becaorse they pressed upon the conacienee
ea- were thousands and thousands of people who could Chur wore told that they must abolish
eaten.. But he could not see what religion bad told°of
HOUSE OF LORDS% —(YESTERDAY.) find no place within the church, and therefore contended
that they wire not bound to support the church. (Hear, with the matter? He could not see how any consciev-
The
can
CLIANCELLoIt took his seat on the woolsack
tahien,ehas the
hear.) However the church rate might have been tioua scruple could arise out of having to discharge an
at five o'clock.
. suited to former times, it was net applicable to the Pre- obligation, subject to which a man bad purchased or
CHURCH RATES.
sent condition of society, •and wee every year producing inherited his property. (Hear, hear.) Ag •
vt their
A large number of petitions against the abolition of
tinretlhieevaebciehancient
themselves,
liability
isty.ed. ele l
church rates were presented by the Lord Chancellor, the increasing discontent. The Dissenters had gone on law stood the rector was bound to re air
wehieehareesitehde
Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bishop of London, the rapidly increasing during the last 150 years, and the and the parishioners the body °Ube church.p
Dielairl'
Bishop of Chichester, the Bishop ef Bath and Wells, the church rate bad educated them in hostility to the Church.
Bishop of Ripon, Lord Wynford, the Eirl of Carnarvon, It was said that in the great majority of parishes church elergy
and Lord Lyttleton. rates were still levied, but this question most be viewed upon them I (Hear, hear.) wee
lordships
still propose
subje c subject I
was quite willing to
The Duke of outland, Lord Brougham, Lord Belper, in its bearing upon the whole population. It was idle to allow that the dissenters had a grievance. Dissent was
Granville, Duke of Somerset, the Earl of Albemarle, Earl take parishes with a limited popuiation, and compare allowed by law ; and it of course involved the n II
Granville, Lord Lucan, Earl St. Germans, and the Mar- them with parishes possessing en enormous amount of of places of worship other than the parish finding
crones.
abolition of Lansdowne, presented petitions in favour of the population. The last census set forth the religious con- Dissent had thus a. tendency to exonerata them fro
abolition of church rates. dition of the people of this country, showing a vast popu- portion of the expense of keeping up the churches from
a
lotion totall^ unconnected ; and
THE with the Church, and a great
WELLINGTON MONUMENT.he thought, therefore, that the dissenters - 4
. ought to be
mass for whom the Church made no roe... h .
p reion w atever. released from the liability of having to pay Church-rates.
In reply to the Duke of WELLINGTON,
New thWl
h., ee.le wereder cons, eratiotts which ought to be well
The Earl of DERBY said it was tee desire of the What, however, the noble duke asked there to dO was
weighed in
174107 wi,th
ithis subject. The number' of
Government, and also of the country, to erect a nionu- to abolish the rates altogether. But wbet right had
churches wasp
These dissenting
number of dissenting the dissenters to expect merit to the late illustrious duke, worthy of the great 0 (1000, that? (Rear.) The truth was
services rendered to his country. In order to carry b chapels., . was '
aid froth'etl
built witnout any . le state, and they must re-out this desire, it would be recollected that a publicbet the damage of the establishment. He (the noble
exhibition of the 83 models sent in for competition took member that the Desenters were the poorest class of the lord) was willing to relieve the dissenters, and be had no
place. Tee noble duke bad stated that the whole of these community. There were many objections to a church a ists whatever to degrade or offend them. He wished to
rate. First of all it was an odious tax, and the imposi-
designs bail been rejected, and that a model bad beenact fairly ; but no one who was excused friar the obli-
tion of a rate was generally attended
.with agitation and
decided upon, which was the joint competition of several gation to pay church rates bad ally right either-to be a
excitement. But how far were church rates necessary ?
artistes. Now the whole of the designs were not re- churchwarden or to vote for the election of .a church-
Look st a district where no church rate had been levied jected, on the contrary a number of the competitors re-warden. (Hear ) That seemed, o him to he no more
for a number of years, and he would undertake to say than sewed substantial reward. The design of Mr. Mar-just. He believed that the best and wisest of the
that di strit b
c more ad been done for the Chorch shall was amongst these selected by the coino that in dissenters did not wish to see church rates abolished,
than in thosedistricts where the rate had been regularly mutes, of which the noble marquis (Lansdowne) for they were in favour of an established church, In •
levied, He could Live numerous instances of that, but opposite was a member ; but it was chosen, however, asfact, it was the establishment which formed the standard
he would give only one. Ile had presented a petition on
a work of art, and by no means with regard to the situa- of dissent; for if there was no national church where
tion it was to occupy. The Dean of St. Paul's and the this subject from Boston. The petitioners wee, that "In would dissent be -? (Hear.) They were told that they
architect, on consul cation, bad selected a moreappropriate Boston church rates have been refused for 20 years, but must not mark the :dissenters; but be had never known
site than that originally intended. The spot selected that had not caused any difficulty in meeting the ex- a dissenter yet who wished to hide his belief, or who did
was the old Consistory Court, which it was intended to penses of conducting public worship in the town, but on not rather glory in being a dissenter. Mean) 'He (the
the contrary, those exeenses have been cheerfully met convert into a Wellington chapel. The work ofnoble hen') should certainly vote against the second
Mr. Stevens, which was numbered 18 in the exhibition, by subscription, and your petitioners have great satisfac- reading of the bill ; but he should be perfectly ready to
tion in stating that, whereas, during the time when
was, however, afterwards selected, as being moreconsider and agree to any fair and reasonable proposal
appropriate, and in unison with the arehitecture of the church rates were levied, extraordinary repairs of the for the settlement of the question. (Hear.)
cathedral, and this selection had not only been approved fabric of the church, though greatly needed, could not Lord WODEHOUSE denied that church rates was a
be made, since the time the church weed had ceased to by the dean and by the architect, but he believed that charge upon tbe land of England. If they were he would •be levied, extraordinary rep afro had been done to the
it had received general commendation. Unless the car- ask.hocv came it that there were some 500 parishes in the
rying oat of the design was left to one person, and that amount of 12,0001., in addition to which two new country in which these : ates were not paid ? It was not,
person was the First Commissioner of Works, nothing churches had been constructed in the parish on the however, upon that ground that he supported the bill,
voluntary principle." (Hear.) Again, look at what had
would be done, because there never would be an end but because he believed the abolition of church rates •
to any scheme which might be proposed. This fact been dote in Scolea,nd by the voluntary system. Since would best serve the interests of the Cburch of England.
applied to the not very savoury river in their haen- the disruption end the establishment of the Free Church, In practice be did not believe as much inoonvenience
dieter vicinity—(hear, hear, and laughter)—and the there had been raised in Scotland for the church the would result from the passing of the bill as its opponents
large sum of 3,900,000/., borne the rato of 300,0001. a
Government offices, as endless plans had been pro-argued, for already in the great majority of the largest
year for thirteen yeare. time ago a committee
posed, and none up to the present moment ac-towns in the country the repairs of the churches were
tually adopted. His. right hon. friend was the proper was appointed to consider the spiritual destitution of the met by a voluntary rate.
person to whom ougleQto be left the carrying out of the country, and what was the result? That there were no The Duke of MARLBOROUGH said—lf the dissen-
erection of the monument, and their lordships Leigh` adequate means of relieving thespintaal destitution of the ters were relieved from church rates, they ought not to
country except by the voluntary principle. One great ob-
rest assured that the monument weuld be erected iu a be allowed to vote against the imposition of a rate on
manner worthy of a great nation. jection to this bill wan that it would relieve the owners others, nor take part in the election of churchwardens.
of land from a charge with which they were now saddled.
After a few observation,' from the Marquis of LANS- The bill before the house violated the rights of the
Now the bill of 1831, the bill of Lord Grey, relieved the
DOIYNE, rho subject dropped, Church.
PRIVATE BUSINESS, landowners, but said nothing about it. The noble lord The Duke of NEWCASTLE denied that church rates
spoke strongly in defence of the bil and it hewas
opposite . , a question of the Established Church, for many dis-
The Hove Improvement, and the Vale of Towy Ry were in want of arguments against church rates, he could senters who objected to church rates were not hostile to
Bills were read a second time,
nut do better than read the noble lord's seech. But he
Manchester Th
The Corporation Water, the ivy and that establishment. He was ready to maintain that ex-
Radcliffe Water, the .Llandaff and Cantor Districts did not wish to enter into a long aremp
u ent about it, be- aggerated arguments had been used on both sides. Rates
. - '
cause he believed no one defended church rates and that
, were opposed on the one hand as a question of religious •
Markets,
Bills were r anead d
a the
third Soustune li Devon and Tavietocie Railway
tb e only gruund of resisting their abolition was that there liberty, and on the other side because its advocates be-
were no other means of raising the money. He did net lieved that the abolition would be a violation of the law
VICTORIA STATION AND PIMLICO RAILWAY believe that there would be any great difficulty in rural of property. Whilst he maintained religious toleration
The Earl of DONO CGEMO RE moved the suspeo- parishes in making a provision for the maintenance of the and supported it, in reference to the admissions of Jews
sion of standing order No. 147, in order to enable the fabric by a charge upon the lard. Toe only difficulty to Parliament, he considered the question of religious
First Commissioners of Works to be heard by counsel that he felt was That they had gone too far to make it feeling was not involved in the question of church rates. .
against this bill. compulsory. As a voluntarycbarge he believed it might A Dissenter had no more right to be an exemption front Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY objected to the be raised. He conceived that in districts where church the payment of church rates on religious grounds any
motion. He did not think a case strong enough to call rates had not been levied for yeara, the only thing was more than a Quaker had to be exempted from the pay-
upon their lordships to suspend their standing order had to treat it as a bad debt, and strike it out of the account. meet of tax-s spent in maintaining war, which he
been made out. He knew objection would be made that there would be honestly and conscientiously believed to be wrong. He
GREYEarI was opposed to any departure from the some parishes where no funds would be raised. There did not believe that the agitation for the abolition of the
usual course. The First Commissioner On this occasion would he oases of the kind no doubt at first, and that church rates was one for the abolition of the Church of
did not represent the Crown, but a corporation having might be a reason for saying that the bill should not come England. The parties felt this to be a grievance, and
the management of Battersea-park and Chelsea..bridge. into operation for meow trine, but that did not seem to were anxious to have the question settled; and he • Sir B. Hall, the late head of that corporation, had rip- him any argument against the principle of the bill. But thought it was the duty of the Church to meet them
proved of tne plans for the rail way i xteneion, and the it might be said that this was only the first el a series of in a conciliatory manner. (Hear.) •
corporation was Louie by what he bad done. It ought attacks that would be made upon the Church, but be Lord WENe3LEYDALE addressed their lordships on
not to be allowed to tats a different course, because the was not of that opinion. Though many who now sought the law relating to church rates, but in so low a tone of
corporation was now under another head, the repeal of the church rates might, from their feelings voice that he was inaudible in the gallery..
The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed that it was im• having been aroused, be hostile to tee Church now, he The Earl of DERBY said [he had looked with some
portaut that the standing orders should be ti 'leered to ; believed that when the cause of the agitation was re- curiosity to the votes to see which of their lordships
but the question was whether this was not a case in moved they would return to their good temper and good would have the courage to offer to their lordshipa' ac-
which they tuft ht properly be suspended. Having had sense. In 1834 there wore a number of Dissenters of enii- ceraance a bill, the effect of which would be to deprive
the facte submitted to him, he was of opinion that it was pence in the House of Commune, and they came forward the Church of England of that iarge amount of property
not a case in which the Crown was interested ; and and stated the grievances to which they wished Pants- to which she was entitled, not by any law, but by pre-
therefore there Was no necessity for obtaining the royal ment to apply a remedy. They required the ahtlition of serietion older than law—to prevent the majority of in-
assent to the preamble of the bill. lie, however, church rates, a registration of balm, that marriages h
by habitants of a parish from rating themselves for per-
thought it essential that the Chief Commissioner should civil contract shouel be legali,ed witfieut the intervention poses of great national, as well as great private and per-
petition against the IND, and as the time for presenting of the Church, admission to the universities, and a sy,- 'meal importance—and to place the Church of England,
sun petition bad pasted, the motion was now made for tem of national education. They granted all these things, with regard to the maintenance of her fabrics and 'support
suspending the stencaug order, so that the petition though he did not say there had not been opposition of her worship, in a position each as she ought not to or:-
might be presented. It was said that the corporation to them. What had been the result ? That the peoplefelt copy. The noble duke had exhibited as much ability as
was bound by what had been done by its late head, they had not teen treated in a hostile spirit, but that courage in undertaking this hopeless task—(bear).-fur
But this was not a corporation ter private purposes, but they had been dealt with with confidence, and that they hop„Wse he trusted and confidently believed it would be to
one tor the protection of public interests ; and had the had the attachment of the people in return. There WAS seek to induce that Lowe and the country, without corn.
late Chief Commissioner seen fit to change his mind in no occasion now for troops to defend the monarch when pensation or without equivalent, to deprive the church
regard to those plans, it would have been open to him to he went into the city, and when the Queen was at Bir- of that which was essential to its maintenance, and its
do so, and to ripporie the bill. In like manner, the new minghara the other day nothing could exceed the loyal'Y indisputable right. (Hear, bear.) Tile announcement
Chief Commissioner, taking a different view from his of the people. (Hear.) He asked 1 hem to deal with this in the preamble of the bili was to the effect that wire read
predecessor, had a perfect right to take such steps As he question in the same :pint in which they hint dealt with church rates Lad for some years ceased to he collected in
thought necessary for protecting the public interests. the others he had named; there were inner reasons why some parishes by reason of opposition, and that in other
The case was one in which the opportunity sbould be he %bought it de-irable at the present moment that they parishes the attempt to enforce church rates had led to
given him to do so by the suspension of the standing should settle this question. They w,res told on both sides dissen-ion and ill-feeling—therefore he it enactei that
order. of the house that another reform bill was inevit tide. in the vast rnej trite, of parishes, where there bad been
Earl GRANVILLE opposed the motion. No ease Now, the last reform hill gave great power to the Dos- neither resistance nor opposition, nor ill-feeling, but
whatever had been made out for suspending the order. Reuters of this city. They were an active people ; they
where there was a general readiness to levy and pay
If amendments in the bell were necessary they might be had special influence in the constituencies, arid they had church rates, it should not be lawful nor competent for
moved in the whole house on the third reading. great power in commercial, manufacturing, and mineral the inhabitants of those parishes to dist:Largo that which
fiord REDESDALE said that it was not at all tin districts. No reform t ill c iuld be carried which would by law was a solemn obligation upon them. (Hear.)
neual.lor tbestaisding order to be suspended in favour of not give great additional power to these populations. This rectal, without soy argument, was almost a soffit
petitions which had been accidentally delayed beyond the Was it wise, then, to leave this question impending ? dent reason why their lordships should refuse to enter-
time. Time extraordinary position in whim; the perk and Was it wise, when they had ell the cernmotioe which tain the sill ject. It had been said that there was a
bridge were placed of itself justified a euepensiett of the must attend a reform bill, to have the animosity of a re- broad distinction between questions of church rate and
stanoing order. ligious discuss ou mixed up with it? Ile asked them, tithe, inaennuch as the tithe was a compulsory payment,
Lord arANLENT of ALDERLEY again adverted to then, to adept the principle of this bill, but to ol lay the and church sates were nothing more than a voluntary
Sir IS. !mil's approval of the pl,ros. period of its o•ono g into operation in older to being in impost. In principle he could see no distinctien abet-
The Earl of DON OUGIIMO RE repeated his impres- some bill whicitjsuuld enahla lendownere to charge their ever between church rate and tithe—(hear)—with this
sion of what had passed. land with the maintenance of the fabric of the Chureh. exception, that church rate was fluctuating in amount
The Earl of WICKLO W said the reasons which had Society had noigr,rn church rates. They must take the and tithe was fixed. Tithe was recoverable by an 'easy
been assigned for granting the prayeref the petition were voluntary system. Ile would read a mew e erds of a process of law, and there were great difficulties in en-
in his opinion in.uificient, and he trusted their lordships speech made in 1855 by Lord Stanley. `t; :,
L-1)""-'"t4 °I 4 f.ircing in the etter case what was an indisputable obli-
would, from a regard ftr the interests of tbe public, and in. asure then h dons tee house he said, "Fair aid equit- cation. Lord Wensleydale bed shoen that church rate
from a consideration ot the, position of the companies able as the ctstuproinise might be in !mint of principle., it Wit 3 110 t A tax upon laud, but a personal obligation upon
who had been misled by the Board of Works, reject the was encetehrred and herr:test-1 with se :eery practical every inhabitant, only to to entorced by reference to the
motion. difficuities in at,' working as to make it eitlieult for it to Means which he possessed in the pariah,—namely, the
Their lord hips then divided on the question that the bo carried in the Houwi of Commons, wet to makes it quite land. Tiwref ire, though church rate was a tax in the
standing order bo euniend:d. impossible for it to be successfully cart i,ol out. I hied to nature of a p retinal- obligation and a duty, ) et, as much
The numbers were— choomc bet eseeti two couree, supporting the law in it's as tithe, poor rate., cr any other rate whatever, it was a
Content .
Non-content 4B was a question net merely of policy, not inutile of expe- parish. (Hear.) It was a cheree, moreover, whicb, when
Maj way —ls dience, but ot justice and right, ard therefore could have they bought o r sold a property, let it or took it upon
CHURCH RATE ABOLITION i3ILL. no he•itation as to the course 1...h0u1d pursue. lam quite lease, they estimated and allowed fur. (Hear, bear.)
The Duke of SOME [tele It having resented a very a warethatin snare dietricey iwiecial'y in the rut ititilVtila'f A mete° duke had re f. rr, dto the purchase, HOMO gene•
large number of petitions praying for the abolition of inconvenience writs' Ibe caused f.tr .ho time by tine with- r,,,, ions ago, by An alleehLtor of his, of the great tithes of
church rates, said the bill to which lie was about or ask holding from cone-wog:eta-mei of a complil-Ory ls-gsl sell- a parish, which a ere etoisnated at a certain price, but
their lordship; to give a second reading, provided for the port to which they are accustomed. Ido net overleitk were sold at something less, because, by virtue of Isis be-
entire abolition of church rates in England and Wales, this objection, Ido not underrate ite importaece, but the corning proprietor o f the great tithes, be thereby became
and contained no prevision by way of substitution. He incenvenience in question would be only teteperary, and lav-reeter of the parish, and was liable to repair the
should not bare undertaken the management of the bill I think it would be none than counterbalanced by the chancel of the church. Suppose that he bad detained
if lie had not already supported such a measure in the termination of that dissension ~hich we have so loug those titnes for 2,000/. less than their value in consi-
other Houle of Parliament, and if he had not heard the witnessed in connection with ibis questions, and I thnos &ration that he would have to pay on the average 1001.
qae-tion debated over and over again, and all the sub. that the change proposed is doubly inipertant, net only a year for the maintenance cf the chancel of the church ;.
statutes which had been proposed. ilavieg heard the on account it the intrinsic ['write of the case, but be- and soprse that the noble duke's ancestor had been a
matter discussed for a period of 20 years, he had come cause it will afford us the first practical experiment of dissenter, and had turned round and said, "It is ;testiest
to the conclusion that the best course to pursue was iu that principle ot self-au view: in religious matters which, my conscience to repair the chancel of the church: true
the first instance to abolish thiscompulsoryrate. (Hear.) whether we approve of it or no, whether we think it the _e have obtained these tithes at a lower price in consi-
The number if petitions oh Oa he had presented in best system or no, seems likely by the inevitable pro- I iteration of my incurring this obligation, and Ido riot
favour ot that principle showed the strong telling that greet.' of public events to be the principle of the next ge- propose en conscientious grounds to pay any more, but
existed in the country upon the subjecr. These poti- neration." Thus their lordsbir would see wlia. they Ido propose on eonscientious grounds ti exempt myself
tame had come fr wit laree towne, and, from an im- Here coming to. lie trusted that these who opposed the trio, the repair of tire chancel, because I ate a &risen-
inense number of videges in all parts of the country. bill would not do so without stating some definite plan ter." ([Jeer, hear.) :inch an argument would never have
Tne bill, moreover, was supported by the Hours of by which they might set-le this question. lie did not been listened to either in law or in practice. Though
Common.. He scarcely knew any subject which know whether the prelates would like the measure.. After church rates were fluctuating n amount, they we re cap-
had excited so much teelieg throughout the country, and what tuerk place last night he felt for them. (Laughter.) eeee of being estimated--they were a distinct recognised
ho trusted their lordships A toed give the bill a fair con- He looked tip n this a, a party geestion, and Ise trusteu tax, which the Church a England as a body had a right
sideration, for as yet they had not come to any vote that their lordships would agree ass the ref ,nd realing. t,, ',weir() on one hand, and which every landlord
upon the question, and were not at all pledged either Lord ST. LEONARDS said thenoble duke ticked teem; throughout the country Was bound to discharge and pay
one way or the other. He believed also that the Go- to settle this question, but his settlement was a receipt as a debt upon his e-tate, and from which he could wet
vernment were not pledged to an y particular course, without payment? What was the lawany ?By the law of eecePe ty Plea of conscience. (Hear, beer ) Fur his
and that the question was considered an open one, fir England church rates were Li charge upon the, lend 01 own part, though he wished to aide indulgently on the
en influential member of the Government ie the other England. They were veluntary, 110 doubt, it the first clAims of dissenters, he always looked with very great
house bad nut only voted but spoken in favour of the instance ; bet, meet limed !1., custom, they became bind- suspicion on those claims of principle and cAnicience,
bill. (floor, bear.) Ho very much regretted the de• ing as law. For centuries courch rates had been cnarbre1
e( the mesult of which was to save their pockets. (Rear,
claratton which haci been made the other that b
the upon the property ot the ceuntry, i anti_ lIJW tille3:e wreate hear..
i Put circumstances had greatly altered, and
noble earl at the head of the Government that he in- asked to go beck to the voluntary principle. hhl ,
14,11_ altered most unfavourably for the Church of England,
tended to move that the bill be read a second time that was levied exactly according to the feelings of -ra sines the first institution of this rate. lii the first
g and
day six menthe. (Hear, hear.) He would briefly call men. They had the amouht within their own
npower,oblbduke instance the parochial system itself was complete
their lordships' attention to some of the attempts which the application of it in their own hand The and entire ; and every person within the parish being
hands.
rt i Ain Act the •
had been wade to settle the question. In May, 1855, suggested that by the repeal of the I o 11.
to charge theirr estates
a bill eras laid on their lordships' table by the right rev, lauded interest should be enabledobligation which was enforced by ecclesiastical autho-
prelate, affirming the principle that in every parish with ihe aliment now raised by the church rate, lie rity, (in there days all- powei fel) to contribute his ,
where the church rate had been twice refuted, it.. should looked upon the voluntary system ae arwvb,i,r-ti to the due proportion for the repair of, and celeeretiou of
for ever cea•e. That measure failed. Since the year Established Church use it,eoeltie 0
joie.
they
° would worship in, that chore!' of which almost by necessity be
theyremoveil was A member, and with which be was connected in
1833, almost every Government and every leadiog states- tee stability
of
tiLl!••ieuters found that;uY
were every period of his life. Unfortunately, the population
' man in the House of Commons had endeavoured to yet church rates ? If the .
ib
they would
the matter at rest. (Hear, hear.) Tney had dwelt with successful in this struggle
re,
ven. speedily find out in many parts of the country had greatly outgrown the
t forte lel eloquence on the mischief that church that it would be even mo •
,con ient to be relieved parochial system. The parish churches had been un-
grea. e
of tithes. The present agitation was rate disputes caused, not only to the interest of tbe from the payment
equal to receive even that portion of the population
merepassing .
Church arid the cause of religion, but to the advance- in point of fact a • wind compared with that which might be estimated as likely to desire to attend
merit of Cbristiaoity itself. la the year 1834 Earl Grey's which took place some years ago ou the subject of tithes; them. This inability had, no doubt, been one main
Government proposed a scheme for the abolition of but a proper compromise was entered into, and nothing cause of propagation and extension of diesent. With
church rates, founded on this principle—that the sums more had yeen said about the matter. He should say, dissent came a separation from the services of the
thepresent raised for the celebration of the services of the Church therefore, resistb demand to the utmost ; but church ; and partly from consideration for the feelings
he should., ft perfectly ready to agree to any reaeonable of dissenters, partly influenced by other considerations,
should be abolished, and that the amount raised for the
maintenance of the fabric of the Church should be made
accomreoeation. They were told that many Dissenters the course of recent legislation had been
very much to
a charge upon the laud tax—in other words, a charge
would be willing to subscribe to the eusteutation of the break through that bond of union which, according to
churches if only rates were abolished. But what would the original syetem, subsisted between the church of each
upon the Consolidated Fund. Tnere were so many oh-
• •that plan, that it did not receive the assent they hay if a man who owed thorn money were to ask parish and its inbabiraets. The church in its original
jections to
teem to release him from their legal claim, and then tell intention was connected with every individual, they re-
of Parliament. In 1855 Sir R. Peel's Government l
in bill for the settlement of the question ;ut them that he would give them the money if they would sorted there not only fir purposes of weekly or daily
brought a
that was not proceeded with in consequence of a change only leave it to his
voluntary act. That would he a very worship, but on three of the most important occasions
of Government. In 1837 the Government of Lord Mel- odd sort of request, but it was exactly what the advo. in human existence. In the parish church, every indi-
bourne introduced a mea,ure which also failed. The sates of the bill were calling on their lordships to do. vidual received the rites of baptism, entered Into the
proposition for making the rate A chew() int the COll3O- There was a legal obligation upon the owners of pro- solemn obligations of matrimony, and received the rites
lidated Fund, and the proposition for making it a charge perty to support the churches and no man could fairly of sepulture according to the service of the cburch. As
on the revenue of the Church, had been
alike rejected. object to discharge his legal oligations. (Rear, hear.) dissent had increased, and the population had outgrovrn
Lad bad
of eotr promises had been suggested; one They were told wriat great, sums of money bad been the means of accommodation, recent legislation ea_
A great number . i
of them proposed to exempt, large towns, and continue raised by the Free Church of Scotland. But when a tendency materially to diminish the closenlees. this
!afore
the rate in rural parishes alone. Another scheme pro- men's minds wore roused, there was hardly any sacra- connection between the parishioners. The
tegdm ei Wed
posed to exempt Dissenters; but, as their lordships were fire that they would not amen They bed eke, been had recognised the claims of dissenter', and
h all e file rile rival
aware, none of these schemes had been aiaerited to. reminded that many churches had beet) built in Eng- both baptism and marriage to be performed
of tho
There was one point on which he thought little or no land on the voluntary system. No doubt the voluntary officers, or in places licensed for the celebration
other " difference of opinion i xisted, and that was that the charge system was an admirable one when it came in as an rites. Partly on sanitary and onpartly
eieeres
and con-
for the celebration of the services night be advantage- auxiliary. (Hear.) Like God's own gracious gifte it sideratione, they had instituted cemeteries
of
the closest
public
ously abolished. He theught that no churchman would would under such circumstances supply that which hueicegrounds, thereby removingoun onet. f the eosest and
desire to retain that portion of the rate, (Hear.; But nothing else could de, but it would not suffice by itself, most sacred ties which
_b
eard he People of the
even should that portion of the rate be abandoned the As far Pew rents—(hear, hear)—be thought nothing parish to the ehnrch.ba(dte
not, hear.) He did not
question would not be settled, for the disputes re=pect- could be worse. (Cheers.) The proposal to relax the law say that these .
laws
sbeenconsideration called for by
• tenance of the fabric would still continue, of mortmaiu did not seem to him to be feasible. Already public necessity ,
sanitary had rendered
hag the maina
necessary that some such
and all the evils of litigation would still exist. (Hear.) there was a charge upon land, which answered :ninth-- it absolutely step should be
naerldpopulous
It was said there could be no doubt as to tl.e jut-tire of ably; but they were asked to abolish it in order that taken in large .
not those parishes. But not the lees
operatic)
the rate, inasmuch as the majority bad the right to tax landowners might have power given them to burden their had the ese laws tended greatly to dig-
the minority. But that principle must be carried out estates, if they plea, ed, with a rent charge for the repairs eociate.
h church, and public of the population from
withgreat caution. The imposition of a church rate was of churches. But the fact was, if they attempted to put the Pa
rls
to consequentlycontributetotto increase the dis-
a very different thing from the imposition of a gas rate or such a charge upon their estates they would find them-
inclinationof that church. $ support and maintenance
a highway rate. If there was a legal right to compel the selves surrounded with difficulties. In the first
place, church rates was ate Was far from saying that the law of
people to pay for the support of the fabric of the church the Church-rate was a fluctuating sum ; but they could present in a satisfactory condition.
all parties had a right to be accommodated in the church, not give a rent-charge upon their estates without
fixing
the ea- tinet as Bat there was nothing in the world so clear and die-
If
the State, acting for the Church, bad the right to tax the amount. It would moreover vastly increase;that the church had an indisputable right to
h the h
so e t oseratee, upon which rested an indisputable oblige-
all the people for the Church it had a duty to perform I penes of transferring real estate, whichit was 8
.ID finding church accommodation. But it was notorious object in the present day to diminish.couldnet,