The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-14 00:00:00

MPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

—whether by way of amendment to the motion
for going into supply or as a substantive
motion. He aAced the question that if the latter c!nr..zo
were adoptel he might move that noti:ie of motion
should hays precedence of orders of the day. (Hear.)
Mr. CA RD WELL—Asa r uhstantive motion. (Hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON—Is the motion to he submitted to
the house in the same words in which it is now on the
table of the house 1
Mr. CARDWELL—ExactIy. (17,ar, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave
notice tLat to-morrow notices of motion should have
precedence of the order of the day.—Aftr.3ed to.
MASTERS AND WORKMEN BILL.
The s-cond readin, of this hill was withdrawn.
JOINT STOCK BANKING CONIPANY BILL.
Mr. HEADLAM moved the second reading of this
bill.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. •—•( YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER. to,k the chair at. 4 ,'eloct.
PRIVATE BUSINES.
. _ _

The following hills were read a third time and pissed :
—Banbridge, Lisburn. and Belfast Railway ; B2ssel-
aleigh Road ; Blyth Harbour and Dock ; Exeter and
Exmonth Reilway ; Formartine and Buchan IL ril-
way ; Inverury and 0!d Me'drum juneion Railway ;
Liverpool Improvement; Manchester, Hyde, and Mot-
tram Road ; Metropolitan Board of Works (Victoria
Park Approach) ; and Balby and Worksop Roai.
The following bills were further considered and or-
dered to be read a third time : —Brenthrd and Richmohd
Railway, East Kent Raq ray (Western Extension),
Worcester and Hereford Railway.
Mr. LYGON gave notice that heou to-morrow,
on the motion of adjournment till Monday, cell
the atten ion of the house to the information understood
to have been withheld from the B rar 1 of Control.
MAGISTRATES FOR BELFAST.
Mr. DEASY asked the Chief Seeretary for Ireland,
whether it was the intention of the Irish Government to
carry into effect that portion of the report of the Belfast
Commissioners, in which they recommended that some
Roman Cate' °Fes shouli be appointed magistrates for
the borough of Belfast!
Lord NAAS said the hon. and learned gentleman was
in error in supposing it was intended to appoint magis-
trates for t' e borough of Belfast. The magistrates who
4cted in Belfast borough were appointed solely by the
Lord Lieutenant.
REINFORCEMENTS FOR INDIA.
Mr. WYLD aoked the Secretary of the Board of Con-
trol if despatches had been recently received from Sir
Colin Campbell asking urgently for immediate reinforce-
ments 4 If the Court of Directors of the Ea,t India
Company had declined for the present to provide trans-
ports for the troops which the military authorities had
reported to be ready for embarkation I
Mr. H. BAILLIE said such questions as this might
lead to serious public inconvenience if persisted in. (Hear.)
He,however,should answer the question. No despatch bad
been received from Sir C. Campbell for immediate rein-
forcements, nor bad the East India Company refused to
furnish transports for any troops that were required for
India.

Mr. BLACK moved that the bill be read a second time
othat
mdiate d ,lire He
en. omtm(e)brjcei
lt
ctoorotphaeoos o n principleth the
ys
ime bmi tnyt hg
se.n e
principle of limited liability, traded upon their own capital;
but a bank, if it were allowed to be conducted upon limited
liability, would trade upon the capital of other people. If
the banks of Scotland had been upon the limited liability
principle, they would all have been swamped during the
late panic. Unlimited liability was their sheet anchor, and
that enabled them to weather the storm. He moved that
the bill be read a second time that day six months.
Mr FINLAY seconded the motion, an i contended that
limited liability, as 'trilled to banks, would be a most
dangerous principle.
Mr. DRUMMOND considered that there were extraor-
dinary deceptions in the bill, and that it was a false prin-
ciple to lay down that a higher rate of interest could be
I obtained with ample security.
Sir R. W. CARDEN thought the bill would inflict a
great injustice upon all persons who advanced their money
in banking 4,p,:r►
t ion Un ler thilebill the old banks would
have just five times the advantage over those established
under Sir Robert Peel's Act. At the same time, he thought
the capital of the banks shout I be asfar as possibleequalised.
Sir W. DUNBAR considered that limited liability hav-
ing been affirmed as a principle by that house, banking
should form no exception. The object of the member for
Newcastle in this motion was to remove the impediments
that now existed to the establishment of co-partnerships to
which banking at present formed the only exception. It
had been said that limited responsibility would check wild
speculation and fraud, but every member of that house
would bear painful testimony to the fact that unlimited
liability counted its victims by thousands, many of them
females, while a system of limited liability, he believed,
would be productive of great advantage. In banking ope-
rations he believed this would strictly apply, as an ordi-
nate," failure would be productive of comparatively little
disadvantage, because there would be a regular audit of
accounts, and altogether a better system ofmanagement.
Unlimited liability, he held, diverted capital from its legi-
timate source, and induced speculative persons to invest it
in doubtful and dangerous enterprises. (Hear, hear.) He
thought the whole.difficulty arising out of this question
might be met by compelling banks to lodge securities for
the issue of notes, and to hold gold for the balances. In
the Isle of Man the issues were protected by mortgages on
land, ate& he saw no reason why that principle might not
be applied to England. He did not think there was any
necessity for this special legislation, and he did not think
that the house should be called upon to give experience to
the rash, wisdom to the innocent, or honesty to the un-
principled. (Hear, hoar.)
Mr. BOVILL considered that the bill was nothing more
nor less than au attempt to protect directors and managers
of banks at the expense of the public interests. (Hear.)
would, he believed, lead to the utmost recklessness of
expenditure. If there was one thing more than another
to be looked for in joint.stock banks, it was that there
should be security to customers, but thatl would be de-
stroyed by this bill. A great object in banks was to secure
good management, and it would be for the house to can-
eider whether that could best be obtained by leaving per-
sons at their head who were eutire'y responsible, or per-
sons who had little or no interest in the success or failure
of the concern. The general tendency of the house had
been against extending the principle of limited liability,
and it was well known that whenever concerns failed under
this act the creditors had been more than usually sufferers.
If the objection to the present banks was that they aeon.-
mnlated too much capital let there be a restriction imposed
upon their power of borrowing money. The principle of
limited liability would, he contended, in no way check
reckless trading, and he quoted from financial authorities
to show that no commercial security would be derived
from limited responsibility. The case of banks was widely
different from that of ordinary private commercial specula-
tions, for wholesale ruin followed upon the failure of a
bank; but the loss in the latter speculation was confined to
the persons directly managing them. He believed this bill
originated in the misfortunes of those who had been direc-
tors and shareholders in unsuccessful banks. Now, he
iseisted that the loss accruing from such speculations ought
to fall upon the directors and shareholders, not upon the
depositors and the public ; for the directors and share-
holders had the full beeefit of the profits of all such con-
cerns. Nor had the depositors the slightest voice in nam-
ing the direction of these concerns. The accounts of banks
were kept from the view of the public, and it wa impos•
Bible for them to be cognisant of their affairs. No else of
necessity had been made out for such a measure. The only
hypothesis on which the bill, as at present explained, could
be urged was that it was desired to relieve directors and
shareholders of that responsibility which would attach to
them. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. GURNEY admitted that the principle of limited
liability must ultimately be extended to banks if it were
preserved for commercial speculations generally ; but he
opposed, the bill on the ground that the experiment of
limited liability was yet on its trial, and its success not
yet proved. Should a favourable result follow the experi-
ment he should be ready, at some future period, to sup-
port the extension of the principle to banks. (Hear.)
Sir C. LEWIS said that the Legislature had already
affirmed that trading associations might limit the amount
of their liability ; and the question now was, whether a
case could be made out for excepting ba-ika. (Hear.) There
was a difference between a mere bank of deposit and a
bank for general purposes, where deposits bore interest,
and the question arose whether there was any reason why
banks of deposit merely should be made an exception from
the rule. But, practically, most joint-stock banks allowed
interest or the money deposited, and there was no difference
between banks of dee• it and other trading associations, so
far as regarded the principle of limited liability. lie should
therefore vote for the second reading of the bill, the opera-
tion of which was to be permissive. The right hon. gen-
tleman entered into a defence of the principle of limited
debility, as giving the shareholders in joint-stock banks a
greate control over their affairs; but he admitted that
depositors who imposed implicit confidence in the directors
entered into a voluntary contract, and ought to bear, with-
out repining, their own proportion of any loss which might
occur. (If ear. )
Mr. lII.A.LINS contended that as free trade had been
made to apply to trading associations generally, joint-stock
banks ought not to be- made an exception, He cordially
supported the second reading of the bill.
Mr. BAXTER was altogether opposed to legislative in-
terference as to the manner in which capital should be in-
vested. (Beer, hear.) The present bill was permissive in
its character, an 1 he should therefore give it his support.
Mr. SHERIDAN gave his most cordial assent to the
second reading of the bill.
Mr. SPOON Ell intended to vote for the second reading
of the bill. (Hear, hear.) Ile had, undoubtedly, continu-
ously opposed the adoption of the principle of limited lia-
bility, but as the principle bad now been recognised in
practice, he could not see why one particular set of trad-
iug cempenies should be exemeted from its application.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQU ER also declared
his intention of supporting the bill, as it appeared to him
to be calculated to terminate a restriction. (Hear, hear.)
He would not ent:r into the question of the ii tits of the
principle of line tel as that cpieetion was not be-
fore them ; the only point which they bad now to consider
was whether the oporatien of the present law restrict
ed
the business of b diking. It was indeei matter fur grave
doubt whether the extensien of the prin;iple of limited
liability, to banking would be very much availed of. For
himself he could. net help thinking that banks conducted
upon such a principle, whet! they cense to be placed in
c nil petition with those acting upon the principle of un-
limited liability, would not he able to hold their around.
It: thought the end must be that the public would show a
preference for Links founded up 'a tlio principle of un-
limited liability. But that if were so it, was quite certain
no groat (danger would result to the public from the re-
moval of the present restriction. On the other hand, per-
haps, with the recent fi Trent abuses of the present syst•
staring them in the face, the public might be induced,
should this bill! ass, to exercise a greater caution than they
had hitherto done. In either alternative, therefore, the
p issing the bill would be of advantage. There was, lo
ever, an objection to the bill—namely, that it was to have
a retrospective effect. Now he did not think that batiks
founded upon the principle of unlitnited liability should be
allowed all of a sudden the power of lessening the security
which they had offered to their creditors. It might be said
there were some who would prefer the security of a
bank conducted upon the principle of limited liability :
that might be so ; however, he did not think there wars
much chance of such a preference being }Award. He
was strongly disposed to thick, therefore, the change
contemplated by the bill would operate unjustly towards,
the creditors of banks form led upon the rieli enited lit
bility principle. At the same time that objection, if
valid, was one which could be best removed in committee.
(Hear; hear.) It might be perfectly true that they bad
not sufficient data before them to guide to the formation
of recent conclusions with reference to the working of the
principle of limited liability, perhaps, oven, they might
ultimately have to retrace their st,ps. But, granting
all that, that really was no objection why they should not
tapply
ot
thee i portion:di pe
to
ot presentf,oppo
support
tin t
ep emraottiiooun t of
obratnhkei nsgo
.coHneel
ply, in whichohneocoutioraesitl his
reading of the bill. (Hear, hear.)
HEADLA.m having made a few observations in e-.-
-wwihtehn theeesryniall counteriantrceea. position on that occasion,'
ready to
offered
support
himert lien proposal,previous
similar policy.
semaslioensbiwllhewnaasdovrodcearte%
gto
cheers, be read a second time, amidst

Mr. WYLD gave notice that he would repeat the
question in another shape ou a future day.
RESIGNATION OF LORD ELLENBOROUGH,
Lord A. V. TEMPEST asked the Chancellor of
the Exchequer whether the resignation cf Lord Ellen-
borough had been his own spontaneous act—(laughter)
—or whether it was partly attributable to the directly
or indirectly expressed wish of the Government that the
noble lord should resign —(laughter)—aud whether it
was the intention of the Government to adopt
the views conveyed in the despatch of the Secret
Commit ee to the Governor-General in Council,
19th April, 1858, or whether it was the intention of the
Government to accept the policy laid down in the pro-
clamation of the Governor-General of India, dated Ana-
l' tbad, March 14, 1858 i (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in
reply to the second question, that he thought, upon re-
. fiection, the house would agree with him that the in-
quiries contained in it involved more the nature of a
resolution than the scope cf a question, and if
be was desirable of obtaining information, he
euzgested to the noble lord that it would be
better for him to pursue that course that the ques-
tion might be debated. The second question
he thought was answered in the frank and generous
speech of Lord Ellenborough announcing his resignation
in another place. (Hear.) By a perusal of that speech
the noble lord would find that even the First Minister
of the Crown was not aware of the resignation of Lord
Ellenborough until it had been laid at the foot of her
Majesty—(bear, hear)—and be (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) bad no doubt the motion that influenced
the noble lord, though not unconstitutional, was rather
unusual ; but had those who had the honour of being
lately the noble lore's colleagues been aware of his in-
tention, the great regard for his personal qualities,
and admiration of his genius, would have induced them
unanimously to have requested him to have withdrawn
his resignation. (Loud cheers.)
THE GOVERNOR-GENERAL'S PROCLA-
MATION.
Mr. NEWDEGATE asked the sight hon. member for
Northampton, whether the late Government received
any intimation of Lord Canning's intention to issue such
a proclamation as that addressed to the chiefs and inha-
bitants of Onde which was now before Parliament, or
that proclamation ; whether the late Government were
consulted by Lord Canning as to the policy of issuing
snob a proc'amation, or of any measure for
the same purpose ; and, if the late Government
were thus informed or consulted, at what period
their attention was first called to the se:jeer, and what
were the dates and nature of the communications be-
tween the late Government and the Government of
India thereon ?
Mr. V. SMITH said he should be most happy to
answer the question, if the house would indulge him
with an explanation of what was alluded to, but if such
a course were contrary to the regulated order of pro-
ceeding of the house, he would postpone it till the motion
of adjournment tr-morrow,
TheCHANCELLORof theEXCHEQUER —I think
it would be much more convenient.
Mr. V SMITH—Then I will postpone it. (Loud
cries of " No, no," "G a on, go oe.") The question, co
far as be was concerned, would be answered. He re-
ceived a letter from the Governor-General of India, dated
March t ; but before answering the question, it was
necessary to inform the house that the mode tf commu-
nication adapted by the Governor General of India was
either thr nigh the Court of Directors, the Secret Com-
mittee of that body, or privat-ly to the President of the
Board of Control, the latter being the most confidential
of all. He was prepared to admit iu the fullest sense that
every ex-Minister' or any one, who heard anything ad•
vantageous or disasivantageous to his count y, was bound
to communicate to the Minister cf the day, taking care
not to communicate anything r f a private character
that would betray the confidence reposed in the
party. After leaving office, be communicated to Lord
Zllenborough a private letter of Lord Elpbinstone,
which the noble lord returned witheet inviting further
comment ; and, as regarded Lord Canning, he stated
that his communications to him (Mr. V. Smith), from
their being private friends as well as public coil-agues,
were not so reserved as they otherwise wool I be. Teat
alluded to, and to which he thought undae impor-
tance was attached, was dated the 6th of March,
and arrived iu this country when he (Mr. Smith) was
absent in Ireland, and his reason for not communicating
it to the Government was that he did not attach much
importance to its contents. Amongst other thidge which
it contained of a private character, was a paragraph
stating that Lord Canning intended to i-sue a proclama-
tion addressed to the z-mindars or landowners in Oude,
that wool! reach him officially by that mail, and tnat
his lordship had hoped to have accompanied it with a
full, Explanatory despatch. but more urgent bu.iness h ui
prevented his doing so. That letter did not convey to
Lim (Mr. &nit!) any rxolanation of the prmlaination,
and in consequence he did not think it necessary tha•
he should have communicated thatle, ter tuber Msjests's
Government. (Cries of cr.i, oh.) To re was no neces-
sity for his inferming the Earl of Elenborough that he
(Mr. S nith) had heard priva'elv that he had received
by that mail a public despat6 from India; and t have
informed him that L ird Canning intended to seed hint
an .x;r:anatory despatch, &Lich, for a 1 he (Mr. V. Smith)
kne-,y, never might be seat, would be a work f :.upert-
ro,!a'ion. Such a communicathal to Lord E: cuborough
would have been not only Ll,O, as, but impertinent.
CeriaLly Lord Ellenborough w.e the last man in the
world to whom he (Mr. V. Smith) should wish to wake
an impertinent a ,au wunicati9n—(" oh. oh," and "bear,
hear") -- because be soul t only hove communica'ed to
the noble lord that he (Mr. S-n'th) had receive!
a public despatch informing him that a proclamation
was about to be i-sued in Oude, but that such was his
sense ( f the noble lord's intemperance and irritation
—(cries of Oh, oh, and Hear, hear)—that he consid,re I
he was about to act on a proclamation, without waitipe
for an explanation ; and if he had so communicated to
b
the nob!o lord, lie thought that the nobb lord
would have had raise to have justly pronounced it an
impertinent communication. (Hear, and oh, oh.) The
noble lord knowing better than he (Mr. Smith) did tile
mode of communication adopted between the
Govern 4-General of India and the hoses
autheritiee, and as the Governor-General comrce-
Bleated with the Chairman of the Board of Directors,
when cases of im ri por;ace arose, he (M a
r. Smith) had
right to suppose that the mule mail that brought his
letter would have brought a communication of
the like kind from the Chairman of the Bard
of Direc`ors, with whom the noble lord was in
constant communication, and who would have remitted
it to the noble lord if it had been of importance. There-
fore, looking at the communictti n, and the contents
thlsletter generally, he c;c,id- red be was justifiedio
not forwarding it to the noble lord. i
readfriend
it iminediat ly he rectived it to his noble frini
the member fsr Tiverton—(loud cheers from the
)Ministerial benches)—to whom it did net occur any
more than to himself the necrs-ity of its being
communicated to the Government. (Hear, hear,
and cheers.) Hs was quits p epared to justify
his conduct, rest eating which he did not entertain the
least regret. (Hear, hear, and Oh, ob.) fie believed
he had acted perfectly correct in the course he had pur-
sued in beieving that what it a, written in a private
letter was of no sort of importance, aud be dtti-id any
one to chow that it had affected the decision of tbe
Government in anything they had done with regard to
India. If her Majesty's Cs'overen•ent pretended to say
it had or could have done so, then ho mu.t express his
wonder that they did not first inquire in every quarter if
any communication had been made to any one about it.
(Hear, bear.)
Sir M. FARQUHARSON asked the right lion vn-
Vernon if, as a matter
of course, bad he c7intinued. Pre-
sident
of the Board of
Cmtrol, he would have received a
draft of the proclamation saidtte tor have been forwarded
by the same mail with the
Mr." V. SMITII---01 course.
The subject then dropped.
OATHS BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL brought up the report of the
com-
mittee
appointed in reference to the Lords' amendments The rsaaons }or disthesentinge front
to the Oaths Bill.
the amendments were put seria,im by
agreed to, Mr. Newdegate first entering his protest
against them.
It teas then agreed that a message should be sent to
the Lords, asking for a crnference.
THE VOTE OF CENSURE.
TheCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER inquired
of Mr. Cardwell how he intended to bring the motion of
Thfoh he bad given notice heLre the house to-morrow

I e%ween tithes and church-rates ; if they abolished the
one, why not the other ? Indeed, of the two, he thong!. t
Dissenters were more opposed to the payment of tithes,
inasmuch as they went to support the preaching of doc-
trines to which they were opposed—whereas church-rates
merely went to support the fabric of churches. - The bill
was of so uncompromising a character that ho could not
give it his support. (Cries of " Divide.") He hoped the
house would agree to a compromise of the suggestions that
had been made, and not give its assent to an extreme me: -
sure that would never b 3 passed by the other house of
Parliament. (Cries of "Divide.")
Mr. MELLOR said he was not one of those who enter-
tained extreme views on this measure. His experience in
church rate cases led him to believe it was impossible to
settle this question properly without an abroncicgiht,filaoolesnrcstitshootref.
fabricef
church-rates,
c collecting andurehhe w
. pewHase ready
wr
ei
ht se,tdo give
feo r thetph providing hiadxu i
secured from the Church, and the "ticketing" of Dissen-
ters, es it had been termed, men who had only differed from
the Church in its observances. He had no wish to interfere
with the parochial system, and as Dissenters were not called
upon to pay towards the ministration of the Church, they
ought not to be called upen to support its fabric. It
sheaved a want of faith in their religion ou the part of
Churchmen to wish the perpstuetion of the rate. All our
churches were built by voluntary contributions, and he for
one felt satisfied that if church-sates were abolished the
fabrics would be supported as well as they now were.
Fe was surprised to hear the opposers of the bill assert
that church-rates reste lon the same basis as property and
poor-rates, because the former rested entirely on the will
of the parishioners. He urged the house to legislate on
this measure in a liberal spirit, and put an end to the ill-
feeling and strife which existed in the parishes of England.
Mr. J. B. HOPE addressed the house amidst cries of
"divide." He felt the necessity of a change as much as
any ono, but he differed from the means that bad been
suggested for making it. Whether the Church of England
was the church of the maj rity or the minority, it mattered
not in this matter ; but whether before an ancient pro-
vision was swept away aaoqier should not be provided in
its place. He, however, objected to its coming from an
illegitimate or undesirable source. He objected to the
adoption of pew rents, because it would have the effect of
driving the poor from the parish church. He quite agreed
tbat if it was unfair to exact church-rates from the dis-
senter for the ministrations of the church it was equally
so to exact them from him for the support of the fabric.
When church-rates were first imposed there was but one
Church, and he thought only the members of the
Church should be now called upon to support the fabric
as well as to provide the neces aries for its ministrations,
but instead of depending on voluntary contributions it
should be by a rate levied on churchmen, but in which
dissenters should take no part.
Mr. GILPIN said dissenters did not admit this was a
question of Compromise, but a question of conscience. It
was stated in a former debate that a member of the Society
of Friends in Bristol cbeirfully contributed towards church
rates in that city, but it was not so in London, for every
year there were taken from the Friends' Meeting-house, in
Houndsditcb, twenty-six chairs and one table, for the
liberty they enjoyed of worshipping God according to
their own censcience. The honourable gentleman denied
that the agitation of the question had died oat. With
regard to the" ticketing" dissenters, as it had been stated,
he paid no attention to it. He had tickehei him-
self; and as aeon as a man was ashamed of his profession,
the seiner he leitibt the better. He contended that it was
as unjust to comp,' an unwilling churchman to pay church
sates, as it was a dissenter. Ho found the recorded
opinions of many of the members cf the pre out Govern-
ment in favour of the abolition of the sate which ha
adopted as his own. He called upon the house to settle
this question, and the only effectual way of doing so was
by their abolition. He denied that these was a movement
against the Church of England, but it was a movement
against church-rates and a compulsory system of relieion,
whatever Church adopted it. He was convinced that so
far from the abolition of church-rates being detrimental
to the Church of England, it would prove the contrary by
drawing out the zeal and affection of its members for the
faith which they professed.
Mr. BRUCE, as a Presbyterian, supported the conti-
nuance of church-rates, from a conviction that it was a
charge on the land which all were bound to pay.
Mr. GARNETT said it had become established in the
country that church-rates were doomed, and he believe i
that their loss would not affect the Church of England.
He would propose that a clause should be added to the bill
enabling churchwardens to name a certain amount of vo-
luntary payments, to be called church offerings. The
names of the parishioners should be entered in a book, and
the churchwardens should carry round the book, and the
amount should be entered that each parishioner chose to
pay, and any dissenter objecting to pay should not have a
voice in the vestry upon s'ny question upon church pur-
poses. All the supporters of the Church in this matter
required was a little more faith, a little more hope, and a
little more charity, and they would be sure to !surmount
what appeared to be the difficulties which surrounded the
question.
Mr. FOX said the object of the bill was to abolish the
compulsory rate; but the supporters of the bill did not
desire to abolish church rates if the supporters of the
Church desired topsy them. Let those who worshipped
in the Church be taxed for the support of that Church.
Lord R. CECIL said by this bill, if passed in its present
form, the Church won d be prevented from raising a rate
for itself. The Church was prevented raising rates, and
yet he was told to pay the church-rates among her own
people. He thought the majority in favour of this bill
was intoxicated by success, and therefore would listen to
no compromise.
Sir A. ELTON suggested that they should decide at
ones on the clause and consider the amendments which
were on the paper,
Mr. COLLINS considered this was a better bill than
any which had proceeded from a kindred source.
Mr. ALCOCK said the country had demanded a settle-
ment of this question, and it must now be settled finally.
Mr. BIGGS sail that its would be impossible for the civil
magistrates to exercise their functitots if this law were
continued. In his town the battle of church-rates had been
effectually fought. In 1841. there we a thousands of people
assembled to resist seizures fog churoh.ratea, and each was
the state of things that in that year, when he was chief
magistrate of Leicester, in order to avert the danger which
threatened the town, he signed a blank cheque to pay the
disputed rates. That was a state of things inconsiWent
with good government. The churchwardens in his town
became ashamed of ie.ning warrants for church-rates.
They announced that a voluntary rate would bo made, and
then there who had violently opposed the compulsory Iwo
carne with liberal contributions to support the fsbric of the
Church to which they wore all attached, but which they
would nut allow to be made an instrument of extortion.
The committee then divided—
For the clause
Against it 153
Majority in favour cf the clause --74
The clause was then agreed to, as was also clause 2.
On clause 3, which limits the operation of the bill to
&glen
Lord It. CECIL moved the insertion of certain words
which would extend the bill to Scotland.
Mr. CUMMING BRUCE opposed the motion.
Mr. BLACK strongly supported the motion.
Sir JOHN TRELA WNY said the case of Scotland was
different to that of England, and it would be butter to
bring in a separate bill.
Mr. BOUVERIE said the clause was useless, as the
preamble of the bill said the bill was to apply to England
and Wales.
Mr. BRIGHT thought the clause useless.
Lord It. CECIL withdrew his amendment.
Mr. PALK hoped the bill would be rejected in another
place.
The clause was negatived.
Sir ARTHUR ELTON moved rho following clause :--
That any church-rate made before the peesing of this act,
and since the let day ,of January, ISs'.i, may be collected
end recove,ed in the same way as if this act had not been
pease The charchwardsvis of every parish in England
and Wales shah, some day in the month of in
o ,ch year, give cu account to the parishioners at a vestry
mectin; of ail money they have received, and also of al
they have expended in repairs and otherwise, for the use
of the church clueing the peat year ; and, the said account
having been ullowe t by the parisOioners, the churehwar.
dens shah I,ly h 'fore thorn an estireate of the cost of re-
pairing the church cud churehyard an i conducting public
worship fur the ensuing year ; and it shall be lawful fir
the sail churchwardens and parishioners to m 4ke volun•
tary rate upen the occupiers of all property now liable to
chords-rates in such parish, for the purpose of defraying the
amount of the said estimate. Provided always, that no
occupier of such property who shall have refused or neg.
lected the said voluntary sate, after the same has been duly
demanded of hint shall be entitled to vote at any vestry
summoned for the transaction of church business for the
space of 18 months.
Sir JOHN Ttt ELAWNY said he would accept the first
part of the clause.
• Mr. GLADSTONE proposed to omit the words, " and
since the Ist of July, 185 g."
This was agreed to.
Sir J. TRELA.WNY objected to the second part of the
clause, as tending to bring this law into confusion.
sir W. HEATHCOTE thought it would be better to
bring up these clauses in the report, when power might
be t iken for the Church to levy a rate which should be
compulsery on churchmen only.
Sir A ELTON said that Sir W. Clay, in his bill in 1854,
did not think it was complete without a cleuse similar to
the one now proposed. The bill as it stood would take
this power irons the churchwardens of maintaining the
fabric of the church. What he proposed was, that they
should have the- power of makinr, voluntary rates. No
one need pay these rates who objected to them. He
would exclude dissenters from vestries called for Church
purposes, but if any dissenter desired to take part in the
v• stries ho might do so by paying the rates.
Mr. LABOUCHERE thought it would be better to
postpone the clause to the report. He believed that the
fabric of the church would be more readily supported with-
out any compulsory rate whatever.
Mr. HENLEY slid the clause as drawn would make
confusion worse confounded.
Mr. CROS iLEY said it was perfectly useless to go to
H RATES that house for powers to be a volunteer act. He strongly
recommended that the clause shonld be withdrawn.
CHURC Mr. MELLOR' said this clause cnly gave the church-
The house having resolved itself into' wardens the power to do what they could do by law now.
committee on this
bi I,Mr. COLLINS did not believe there was the difficulty
Dart of *of working the clause which had been supposed.
On clause 1 being proposed,
Mr. CROSSE supported the clause.
Sir J. TR ELtown
said that before proceeding The clause was negatived without a divieion.
ther he desired wer some Obj before
eon t:e fur-f The house then resumed.
ede. the kill. which he thought bat been
_POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
fectly met. Its the ere:, place he begged to retuitel the This bill was reported.
house that church rates were established upon the principle NON-PA e2CI.IIAL R7.r_q"...-.:TER BILL.
that every inhabitant of a parish used the parish church, This bill passed srough committee.
and therefore every one hail an interest in the maintenance FRC:WM.I.'IY QUALIFICATION BILL.
of the fabric of the churches. Now it was a fact that at Mr. L. KING moved that the house do go into commit.
least five millions of the population never entered their tee on the bid.
churches at all ; therefore the principle upon which church Mr. BENTINCK thought that the lato lour (past 12)
sates originally rested was upset. Again, it was argued
in the. Toe CHANCELLO
zilegliiut to be a reason why it should be further postponed.
that as men bought their properties subject to chuseh- adur !meat of the deb ate.
rates, no injustice was done in compelling all persons to
m_eantr. KNIGUTLEY and other gentlemen urged adjourn-
pay
the late hour
pay tJt m. What, however, did the law ? Why,
Bra,in'ree case it was established as the law of the land
at
wlthichoftliteli the
billE Xw
aesflrEcaQ,llJaEscßeo "IT
tnignleiet
that a church-rate could not be levied unless a majority of on a
previousbugveuefvcerhtt
discussion
a reason es hy further time
the vas's voted for it. Well, if that were to, whet be-
The house divided on .tiiceutssion of the meastiro.
came ( f the ergement that nil men must pay ehureh-rvcs,
debate when the numbers wereno
..
............... adjournment.......
.....
Bi_ of the
because all men bought their proeerties subject to them ?
•
.. ... ............... 156
He desired to see the church-rates abolished, because he
AFguia•iiuti rioatr oi.
tt.
yi.
.............
................
75
wanted
to see the Church ef England made a really net ionel
church. Ho was not sure either that clergymen of the,
Church of England came before them with clean humid.
Mr. F. HI7ME moved the adjournment of the house
The motion was lost.
He was inclined to think that clergymen ought properly
(1°1.1:21 of the niotion.
to give daily services, and until they did so they should at •
leamstrb. epdenied the right of demanding rates to keep th • • (nCeleltees::',37:llvcirsieoe(sitrtohGfen"wßOiythh,, believing that discussion *as
bill mere f
country ell Sir H. wILL
cherches in repair.
GRIFFITH would be disposed to regard the
Mr. MALINS agreed with this view.
if he saw how the churches in remote
parishes wY-ere to be supported. Probably the After some remarks from Mr. BOUVERIE,
working of the voluntary
pose in the case of system would suffice for the pur- .
teuNSOLIDATED FUND (11,000,00 1.) BILL.
country district tb
fetlitleee, F..... Le, e.working
large but in the case of remote
of such a principle would be The debate was rdjourned till Tuesday.
This bill was seed a second time.
" ""aselfs he eonf se cl e to seeing no dill:ance • •
STAMP DUTY ON PASSPORTS BILL.
This pill Yas Nead a werid tiro.

those expensive adjuncts to the fleet at the fag end of
the late war in the Crimea and Baltic), built of iron
plates of great thickness (14 inches, if our memory
serves us) is to be stripped of her plates, which are to be
fixed on the Alfred

the largest and most elaborate chandelier of the kind
ever constructed. Its manufacture— that is, the
stringing together of the rows of drops aid lustres—
occupied 50 mon day and night for three weeks.
It is 18 feet high, 14 feet in diam(tne and con-
tains three tons of the purest cut-glass. The upper
portion is formed of double „festoons of drops in the
shape of a large tent. Level with the bottom of this
is a ring of 120 burners behind feathers of cut crystal
glace. -These, however, are mere auxiliaries to the
primatrc lanterns which form the lower band, each
of which is composed of double prisms and spires of
glass, and all lit by 460 burner'. The bottom is
made of a heavy drapery, so to speak, of cut crystal
drops, behind which are 200 burners more, so that this
superb little palace of crystal contains upw-ards of
120,000 cut prisms, spires, and drops, an lis by no
less than 700 gas urnerse It is made by Debi s and
Sons, of Hounsditch, the manufacturers of the prismatic
mi-r ri for the Sultan's new palace on the Bisphorous
and both the design and execution reflect the very
highest ,credit on their manufacturing skill. Thu sup-
p iris for carrying this brilliant mass of glass were tested
the other day to double the weight of the chandelier,
and, in addition to this, upwards of 20 men hung on to
the ropes to place the matter beyoed all possibility of
d)ubt. The decerati ns cf the ti. re of boxes are c qi.-
plAe, and the effect, at least from the parts, shown, is
rich beyond description. They are, cf course, white
and gold with the rest of the theatre. The lower tier
is adorned with a rich lattice-work of gold with figures
ae supperte. The grand tier is embossed, as it were,
with carved gilt work in high reit( f of the rose, thistle,
and shamrock. At a distance of 12 feet beautifully
modelled winged figures with foliated terminals eupport
this, an I a bor ter of gold of the graceul lonic °veil()
design whch runs round the upper space between the
boxes. The second tier has a similar enric:imeot, but
tee border is forret(' of the 'Wins of the valey, and
the winged figures are cupids; while the upper tier of
all is bordered with an ivy wreath. The division
between each box is formed by a blight column
of gilt scrollwork of very beautiful design, which
car y the line from base to summit, and while
adding much to the richness of the general
effect, they also materially contribute to the light-
ness and elegance of the whole. The boxes are lined
with crimson and draped a ith curtains of rose pink,
which imparts a look of fulness and warmth that relieves
the general whiteness of the rest of the house. Ail other
parts of the interior, even to the most distant cf the
upper gallery, are adorned in the same style, with equal
taste and almost with equal richness. What, h owever,
is of more importaece is that they are so constructed as
tha all the audience can see every movement that passes
upon the stage. The only difference which the different
degrees of places make is one of distance from the pro-
sceeium—as far as seeing is concerned all aro equal.
Grea: care has been taken to provide for efficient venti-
lation, and both in the boxes and galleries, as well as in
the cei;ing, the apertures made fur the escape of hot air
are exce.lently contrived,

The Wallace iron steam-veviel has been fitted as a
tug for the service of the victualling department at the
Royal Clarence-yard ; she will be employed in towing
lighters out and in to the ships requiring to fill up wiih
provi-ions at Spithead, which will obviate the necessity
for hiring power for that purpose, as was the case on
the last e nt rgency.
The Admiralty steam-yacht Osborne, Master Com-
mander Bower, will go into the steam .basin about Mon-
day next to repair a few defects. The Dasher, steam•
vessel, Commander lore, will be docked at Port,mouth
to-day to repair defects. The Sprightly, steam tender,
which was docked on Wednesday to have a few defects
repaired, will make room for her by going into the steam

A most destructive disease, termed the "auger worm,"
nearly equalling in iti ravages the rot itself, has been
di-icovered in her Maje-ty's paddle- a heel steam-
sloep Barraconta, in dock at Woolwich, iu process of
being fitted for the pennant. Daring the term of her
I.ite commission by Commander Fortescue she was em
ployed upwards of 18 months cruising in the China seal,
and, from her heavy draught of water she cuff red
various times from contact with the rocky shoals along
that coast, which damaged and stripped the copper from
lin. bottom. The inferior planking, thus exposed, was
found to have become invested with the worn, which
bad sprung through the whole of the outer planks below
the ship's bilge to a most disastrous extent. On apply-
ing the usual process denominated "dubbing," or chip-
ping off the surface, the planks, eight inches thick, pre-
aented the appearance of I,ng honeycombs, and were
lit ,rll.lly eat -n out in passages and chambers extending
over the entire length and depth usually imrnereer+. 'l'„e
whole of these have been removed, nod the ship is
undergoing thorough repair. The beams aed limbers
in the vicinity of the engines are likewise being removed,
having been found rotten and decayed from the effects
of the steam. She is ordered to be completed by the
30th of September.
The screw steamship Archer, in dock at Woolwich,
and the paddlewheel steamsloop Prometheus, are under-
going thorough refit, in consequence of the effects cf the
rot. The Prometheus is ordered to be completed by
the 30th of October.

THE NEW OPERA-HO JSE.

The crush-room is finished as hr as regards its inter-
nal decorations. Its style is Italian, and its effect is
excellent: The Queen's box and Queen's private room
&joining the entrance from Hart-street are nearly ready
—the latter, we way say, quite so. Tbis room is a per-
fect gem=decorated in white and gold with the most
exquisite taste and richness, and with an effect that is
really most brilliant. In the centre of tis hangs
another beautiful chandelier of Defries's manufacture--
of course smaller in size but equal in shape and design
with the great chandelier for the ceiling►. The private
entrance for the Duke of Bedford is also finished, and all
the public approaches and passages are fit for use. In
some places, however, there is a good deal of painting
going on—rather more, as :trate, than an incautious vi-
sitor likes. The grand staircase, too, has much to be done
to it in the way of gilding and painting, but about this
bring complete all are c nfident. S.) much for the in-
side. Outside, all that will be done beyond taking
awzy the scaffolding has been done. The ap x of the
portico will not be completed till after the theatre is
opened, but it has been glazed in, pro ton., with a ridge
and furrow of glass and iron. The famous figures of
Thalia and Melpomene, by Flaxrnan, are in their niches
nn each si le of the pfirtico, and the metopes and other
bas-reliefs from the same master band are in front of the
hot.se, with back grounds of light blue. The rehearsals
are taking place at the Lyceum, and perhaps not an
hour before the audience enter will the last traces of the
workmen disappear from the new building. Open,
however, it will to-morrow, when we trust that the first
season will be inaugurated with a success that is due no
less to the skill than .the untiring energy and perseve-
rance of Mr. Gye.

SPORTING IN TE LLIGENOE.

TATTERS Es L US—THURSDAY.

Layers were more numerous than backers, and the
adage aboit letting "I dare not " wait upon "I would,"
which is generally adhered to by speculators just befire
the Derby, seemed to have influenced the subscribeqf
during the early part of the afternoon. Offers to lay were
plentiful enough, and it was not until late that the sup-
porters of certain animals gathered confidence and de-
voted themselves to hu-inesF. After 825 to 200 bad been
hooked about Fits Roland, 5 to 1 was currently offered,
a movement which was explained by the advance of his
stable compani,n Beadsman from 25 to 1 to 15 to 1.
500 even was laid •Once between Ytz Roland and Tex,-
pholite, but the former had a decided call at the close,
when he was backed at 5 to 1, whilst halt a point hightr
odds might have been obtained about " Tux. ," Long-
range was not in much requeA, and Ancient Brito,
who bad been freely supported in the City dun', g
the morning, was backed at 14 to 1, the taker offer.
ing to go on at the price ; 100 even was I)..itecl once
between L )ngrange and Ancient Briton ; 100 to 8 was
offered against Happy La,d ; 10 to 1 was wanted about
Mr. 11:)warl's lot, whilst Sekibury and Eclipse were
backed outright at the quoted pricee. Several invest.
meets were made on Ditto at 20 t ) 1, and at last 18 to
1 was b,”oked ; 1,000 to 30, and finally 40 to 1, were
offered against Physician. Ethiopian superseded his
stable companion Deceiver, and was advanced from 40
to 1 to 25 to 1 taken and offered ; 20 to 1, and at last
1,000 to 60, were taken about the two coupled.
The transactions on the Oaks were unimprtant.

LATEST BETTING.
DERBY.
5 to 1 agst Fitz-Roland (taken)
sto 1 apt T.•xopholite
12 to 1 agst L ,no-ange (taken)
14 to .1 agst Ancient Briton (taken)
15 to 1 agst Beadsman (aken)
100 to 6 apt Eclipse (t and off)
100 to 6 apt Happy Land (offered)
100 to 6 agst The Ha-ji (three?)
18 to 1 agst Ditto (taken)
20 to 1 agst Sedbury (taken)
25 to 1 agst Ethiopian (t and off)
1000 to 30 agst Kelpie (taker)
40 to 1 agst Poysician (offered)
43 to 1 aet Deceiver (offered)
.50 to 1 agst East Langton ( •ffered)
1000 to 10 agst J Tian (taker.)
1000 to 60 agst Ethiopian and Deceiver coupled (t)

----
,
SALE OT THE WYNNSTAY STUD —The magnificent
stud of hunters and other horses belonging t,) Sir
Watkin Williams Wynn took place in the stable-yard
of Wynnstay, on Saturdalr last, under the direction of
Mr. Richard Tattersall. The atternianco of the aristo-
cracy, leading horse-tleolers, local gentry, &e. was very
great. All the animals fetched good prix's. The bes,,
C.Assio (by Murphl), by many consi,-!ererl " tke best horse
in England,"_ was put up at 200 guineas The principal
bidders were Mes,rs, Anderson, Percival, and Darby.
lii a few minutes he wa,, knocked down to Mr. Anderson
for 620 guineas, amid the cheers of the company. King
Dan (a splendid horse, six years old), was also sold to
Mr. Anderson for 460 guineas. ercornaboo, a noble
horse, was knocked down to Mr. Darby at 300 guineas.

Racing Fixtures for 1858.
MAY.
Epsom lB I Manchester 26
JUNE.
ARcot 1 Winchester lB
Hampton
9 NweaAle-on-Tyne ..... 22
Beverly Summer. l6 I Ab:ngdon
Bihury Club l6 I Carlisle 99
Stock ...17 Shrewsbury 99

JULY.
Hereford
Ipswich 1 Nottingham 00
,
Pontefract
0 libiam 2 Marlborough 23
Newmarket July 6 Good wood 07
Worcester Summer 8
AUGUST.

Ripon.
I
Be!ford
North Staffordshire 3 Be:am
Brighton
Brighton Club
Lewes
Wolverhampton
9 Great Yarmouth
........ .31
Beading ll

SEPTEMBER.
, 1 Monmouth
........... 23
2 manche4terA.ututnn ..... 24
7 Newmarket F 0.-
. .

Derby
Cardiff .
War wick

2 3
14 ...........
Doncaster
Leicester 22 I Northallz,rton
............