The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-08 00:00:00

THE OATHS BILL.

The Earl of LUCAN said that according to a promise
he had given to the house, he begged leave to bring in a
bill to enable both houses of Parliament to arrange the
oaths to be taken by members of the Jewish faith.
A short conversation followed with reference to Lord
Lyndhurst having brought in a bill to tho same effect.
The bill was th.n read a first time.

The Earl of LUCAN said be wuderstood the noble
and learned lord intended to bring en the second reading
of his bill on Thursday next, which he thought was
rather too soon.

The Earl of DERBY eaid that on a question of such
great importance opportunity should be given for the
fullest consideration, and it was not asking too much to
ask ten days' notice.
Lord LYNDUURST had no objection to postpone
the second reading to Friday week.
Earl STANHOPE said he had a notice of motion for
that day.
It was ultimately arranged that the second reading
should be taken on Friday week, Earl Stanhope having
postponed his motion to the following Monday.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes to 7.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)
EDUCATION COMMISSION

In reply to Lord J. RUSSELL,
Mr. WALPOLE said t,bat the commi3sion on educa-
tion moved for by his right hon. friend (Sir J. Paking-
ton) was almost ready.

THE INDIAN RESOLUTIONS.
The house went into committee on the Indian resolu-
tions, Mr. FITZROY in the chair.

On the third resolution, which refers to the council,
and declares that it should not consist of less than 12
or more than 18 members.

Mr. GLADSTONE and Mr. 110EBucx rose together—the
calls of the committee being for Mr. Gladstone.

Mr. ROEBUCK—I rise to order. I proposed a mo•
tion that there should be no council at all for the go-
vernment of India, and it was considered by the house
on the last occasion that it would be the most logical
mode of proceeding to take that proposition first. I now
sir, leave it to yours, As a logical head, to decide whether
lam not logically first before the house. (Laughter.)
The CHAIRMAN decided that the amendments of
the right hon. gentleman (Ur. Gladstone) had precedence
and called on the right hon. gentleman to proceed.
Mr. ROEBUCK (amidst calls for Mr. Gladstone)
said—l rise again to order. lam sure, sir, you will re-
collect what took place on the last occasion, and that
the committee then decided that my proposition, as
being logically first in order, should be first diE-cussed.
Lord J. MANNERS—I rise to order, and wish to
ask whether, after you, sir, have ruled, it is competent
for the hon. and learned gentleman to proceed !
Mr. AYRTON wished to know whether, as the hon.
and learned member for Sheffield was in possession of the
committee when the question was last before them, and
as this was an adjournment ef the proceedings, it was
competent for any other hon. member to cut in with a
new amendment?

The CHAIRMAN said it had been decided in Mr.
Duffy's case that a member who had been addressing
committee was not in poisession of the committee after
an adjournment. He therefore called on the right hon.
gentleman to proceed..

Mr. GLADSTONE then rose, and said he could as-
sure the Len. and learned gentleivan that nothing was
further from his intention than to avail himself cf any
technical forms for the purpose of interfering with that
loetical order of the proceedings on which the hon. and
learned gentleman so strongly insisted. But he did agree
with the hon. and learned gentleman in his view of
cal order. If it had been determined that the present
Court of Directors should be abolished it might then be
proper to consider the question whether there should be
a new council t all bef ore discussing what the new coun-
cil should be. ("rear, hear.) But as the character of his
propoaition was to keep the Court cf Directors in exist-
ence for a limited time, culject to some modifications, ho
submitted that the more proper and orderly mode of pro-
ceeding was to decide that proposition first. They were
now, on the 7,h of June, about to resume, or be should
rather say to recommence, the work ef legislation on
the affairs of India. He did not lay much stress on the
period of the year at which they began this work, be
cause if publec considerations required that they should
proceed to definite and conclusive legislation on this
subject, it was the duty of the house to disregard alto-
gether every consideration connected with personal con-
venience and arrangements ; but on the other hard, the
house must be aware that in that case the session must
be protracted for an indefinite period, or they must dis-
turb the ordinary arrangements and distribution of the
business of the house. The motion made by his right
hon. friend the member for Oxford, and the discussion
to which it gave rise, were sufficient, he thought, to show
that the settlement of India was a matter of greater
difficulty that some of them had supposed, and brought
home to them in a practical way that in setting about a
reform cf the Indian government, they should proceed
with the utmost circumspection. (Hear, hear.) But the
c -otinuance of the war iu India w as another circum-
stance which must weigh with the house in considering
this question. (Hear.) Unhappily the continuance of
the war in India did not mean any longer its continu-
ance from mail to mail, because educe they last dis-
cussed the question they were lauded in the hot period
of the year, and the most sanguine man amongst them
did not now expect, did not now believe it—he might
almost say—possible that that war, which unfortunately
had assumed so much a more formidable character since
the time when they were accustomed to describe it as a
were military mutiny, oonld be terminated in the pre-
sent session of Parliament. (Hear.) There was no roan
who would riot probably feel thankful if complete tran-
quillity was restored to India by the time they met again
in the next session of Parliament. He heel-zed upon the
question of the continuance of the war, both on general
and on more particular grounds, as one having an im-
portant and even a vital bearing on the question whe-
ther we should continue the attempt definitively and
completely to legislate for India in the present se-sir n.
(Hear.) He would venture to ask the noble lord (Pal-
merston) and his colleagues in the late Government
whether, if they imagined the war would have been pro-
tracted to the present period, with a prospect of at least
six months' further hostilities before them, they would
have introduced their bill in February l He doubted
whether they would have done so. But the house having
twice determined, the first time by alarge and the second
time by an overwhelming majority, not to postpone le-
gislation this session, he wished to testify his respect for
that decision, and to affirm by a bill in the present ses-
sion the principle adopted by the house, that the govern-
ment of India should be transferred to the Crown, and
that the power acquired by the Crown should be exer-
cised by a responsible Minister. As one connected
with the mercantile class of this country he must say
that those who sought to find grounds to disparage that
class for government should not look for materials for
their arguments in the administration of India. (Hear,
hear.) But it was admitted on all hands that there
was much in the objection of the cumbrousness of
form under which the business was conducted. On
the other hand, lot it not be supposed that they were
going to conduct the Government of India with railway
rapidity. (Hear.) He was very much struck with the
pregnant declaration which he saw in one of those able
documents which emanated from the East India Com-
pany since these discussions began—" That the forms
for transacting Indian business were practically and in
fact the constitution of India." But it was admitted that
these forms were unnecessary and inconvenient. He
would remedy that inconvenience by proposing that the
minister for the Crown who was to be responsible for the
Government of India should be placed in direct connec-
tion and juxtaposition with the Court of Directors by
presiding as their chairman whenever he thought proper
to do so. That was the first part of his proposition ; and
the second was that the President of the Board of Control
should take into his bands and exercise the power of the
chairman of the Board of Directors over and abcve the
power of presiding at the deliberations of the court. This
proposition was made with a view of meeting the objec-
tion derived from whet was known as the initiative of
the company. At present the initiative was in the hands
of the chairman and deputy-chairman of the company.
Therefore the effect of what he proposed would be to
enable the responsible minister to assume, as far as he
found it necessary, the initiative in the transaction of
Indian business. It would be a mistake to suppose that
his proposition was simply one for the eke- tat quo, or that
it was a mere nominal transfer of power from the bands
of the company to the Crown, for whilst the change was
one which would introduce no great disarrangement,
either in the proceedings of the president t f the board
or of the company, it would satisfy the spirit of the re-
solution to which the house had arrived, whilst it would
almost entirely meet the practical objection made by the
noble lord on the present constitution of the Home Go-
vernment for India, and which he stated as the reason for
the bill which he introduced into the House of Commons.
He was of opinion that they should give effect to the
judgment at which the house arrived ; but on the other
hand ho had a strong opinion, which he believed was
shared by many in the house, that it was not practicable,
during the present session of Parliament, to dispose
finally and conclusively of the question of the Indian
Government in such a-manner as befitted that question.
He laid stress on the words "as befi.tcd the question,"
becuuse he admitted it was in their power to legislate.
The bill might be a very simple one, if the proposition
of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield was
adopted, But he did not think they could pass such a
bi!l as would be worthy of the subject. The problem
if the Indian Government which was presented to them
was not only the most formidable that ever came befere
them, but the greatest and Ins et formidable problem
that was ever presented to any nation in the whole his-
tory of the world, because it N7as the frost time when a
people at one extremity of the adobe had attempted to
hold within their rule 200,000,000 at the other ex-
tremity of the globe—and to hold them within their
rule on what conditions ? Not on the condition on
which great conquerors proceeded great conquests had
been made by races of superior energy which in the
course of time amalgamated with the conquered race
and incorporated themselves with them so as to become
one consistent and homogeneous body. Bat that was
not their position in India. They w'r:t to India, not
to become Indian, or to incorporate themselves with the
people, They went there not only as strangers but to

remain strangers, not as a race, but as individuals.
Teere was no Englishman who went to India who did
not remain in India as much an Englishman as before
he left his native shore. (Cheers.) This constituted
but one of the difficulties of this great problem, but as
between delay and precipitation in legislation, it was
enough to influence him in preferring delay because the
evils that could arise from delay woul f be insignificant
compared with the evils arising from precipitation.
With regard to the political position of the natives of
India had they made up their minds There were
same very high authorities who thought that their
proper function in India was to educate the natives for
higher social and political duties. Mr. Kaye, who pos-
sessed great practical knowledge of India, says' " the
admission of the natives of India to the highest ogees
of the state is simply a question of time ;" and Mr.
Holiday says, " I believe that our mission in India is
to qualify the natives for governing themsolver." A full
consideration of this ought to enter into any measure
that passed the House of Commons; but ho could not
conceive a more uufortunhte time for handling that ques-
tion than the present, when they were engaged in a war,
when any concession might be attributed, not to their
deliberate convictions, but to fear. (Hear.) Then, with
regard to the civil service. Of the former he would not
on that occasion say anything. But how to deal with the
military service was no small question. (Hear.) Was it
a small matter to destroy altogether the relation which
subsisted between the great army cf India and thosre to
whom they were accustomed to look upon as their natu•
cal protectors No reference was made to that army in
the resolutions of the Government, and though reference
had been made to it in the bill of the late Government,
that reference was made in such a way that he thought
it had been better omitted. (Hear.) The officers of that
army would occupy a kind of secondary position, for
they would not be Queen's officers, but a kind of local
force, wanting that true military spirit which was fos-
tered by belonging to a distinct service, and partaking
more of the character of a constabulary or police force
in some county of England. He must confess that for his
own part, he had always thought it a very great misfor-
tune that the Indian army should be placed in any situa-
tion of relative inferiority at all. (Rear.) What was
India ? What was the Indian army It was the finest
military school in the world. With regard to the Queen'.
army, such was the general tranquillity of her dominions
that in time of peace it was with the utmost difficulty the
military character of the Queen's army could be deve-
loped. With regard to the native army in India, were
they is place it, commanded as it was by British officers,
in a secondary position He wished to know whether
they could deal with the various subjects connected with
Indian legislation at this moment In what position were
they going to place the force? The subject was one of great,
difficulty; it involved the entire question of reorganisation
and could not ba excluded from consideration in a final
scheme of Indian legislation. Ho would again refer to
another subject of very great importance, and oue abso-
lutely reqMring review when they were dealing with the
question of Indian government, but to which there was
not the slightest reference in either the bills or the reso-
lutions. He meant the question of the constitution of
the local government of India. Some seemed to think
that this was alt a matter of course, that they had a ma-
chine in motion, moving like cicck work, and that no-
thing more was required than a few months considera-
tion of legislation for Indian government, and there was
nothing demanding attention ha connection with the 10•
cal gotseroinents. Such was not the opinion of Paths-
mcnt in I.riner times. He did net believe that even those
best acquainted with India had at the present moment
arrived at a solution of all the leading questions con-
nected with the local governments. It was a matter of
doubt whether it was desirable to constitute these go-
vernments on the footing cf an independent governing
eetabliehment is each presidency, cr. whether they should
centralise the authority in the hands of the Governor-
General in Calcutta. At a former period the local go-
verrinnstrts we re to a great degree independent, as was
natural when at the early stage of our power Calcutta
was not the head-quarters, but in 1853 the independence
of the local governments was diminished. At present
there were two speenas in operation with regard to the
local governments which were somewhat incongruous.
The governor in each presidency had a comelateadvising
council, as if he were independent ; but, on the other
hand, his independence was reduced within the narrow-
est bounds. Generally speaking, he was a set of sub•
governor, holding Les power subject to the discretion of
the Governor-General at Calcutta, whilst at the same
time he had a council constituted to a great extent as if
he exercised independent power. When they were re-
vising the machinery of the Indian government, it was
important they should consider to what degree they ought
to centralise the power in the hands of the Governor-
General, or leave it with the governors ; if it was to be
cer,tralised, whether the governors ought still to be sur-
rounded by acouncil, and whether the presidencies ought
not to be represen: e I in the councilat Calcutta, where their
affairs were in the last resort to be determined I These
were all questions of great importance, strictly relevant
to the question of Indian government, and yet on which
neither the late nor present Government had given any
judgment. Were not these questions on which they
ought to have an opportunity of consulting those distin-
guished men who were now tenrciirg power in India,
clothed with the authority of her Majesty I Was it
rational to proceed in such a manner ? If these ques-
tions of local government deserved to be examined,
would it not he worth while to court the opinion of
Lord Canning., Lord Harris, and Lord Elphinstone, who
had practical experience I He wished to submit to the
committee, as they were about to attempt final and com-
prehensive legislation for India, a few words with re-
gard to Indian finance. He did not refer to the claims
which might be made by persons who, being creditors
of the Indian Government, may consider that Parlia-
ment has no right to alter their security by removing
the East India Company from the position of debtor
without their consent. (Hear, hear.) This was a matter
on which he believed, that, before they were able to
legislate, they would be called on to enter into a great
deal of minute consideration. This, however, was not
what he wished now to direct attention to. He referred
to the subject of finance in connection with the war now
going on. They were called on to adopt a new act for
the government of India ; not a temporary, but a defi-
nite and comprehensive scheme ; and it was desirable
that on the all-important subjects connected with the
government they should make arrangements which
would stand to a reasonable degree the wear and tear of
time. How did tie question of Indian finance now
stand with regard to the great question of liability
for the Indian debt ? When they thought they bad no-
thing to deal with but a military mutiny, or when they
believed the war would terminate with the taking of
Delhi or the capture of Lucenow, it was natural enough
to !uppoEe that they had in view the extreme limit of
the financial liabilities they were about to incur, so as to
enable them to proceed with final legislation. That was
not the case now. They should consider on what
revenues or what exchequer the Indian debt was to be
secured? The Indian revenues fermed but a limited fund;
he did not mean to say they would not increase, but
when he looked to the nature of our tenure of that oonn-
try and our present difficulties, he did not think they
could calculate very extravagantly on the elasticity of
the revenue. They might mortgage the labour and capi-
tal of England to any extent so long as persons were
ready to lend money, and whenever they found a good
reason to borrow; there could be no doubt as to the suf-
ficiency of the eesurity; but owing to the present state of
India and the probable length of the war, the receipts of
revenue must be diminished from the present 25 or 30
en the other band, they could not ex-
pmeiclltiotnosC whilst,arry the war at an expense of less than 10
to 15 millions a-year, thus lessening the condition of
Indian finance to the extent of some 15 millions. Did
they mean to d. glare that the debt contracted on behalf
of India should be charged only on the revenue of India?
(Hear, hear.) If they passed this act, they would lay
down a new basis for Indian finance; that basis ought to
be sufficiently broad. There were other relations between
Indian debt and Indian fianance and the ultimata re-
sources of this enuntry. (Hear.) But at this moment the
revenue was diminishing, the debt and charges were in-
creasing; was it safe or prudent to choose such a mo-
ment for the purpose of altering and reconstituting the
entire basis of Indian debt and Indian finance These
were all points on which, it appeared to him, it was im-
possible for them to proceed or even profess to prooesd
to any definite or comprehensive legislation. There was
another question to which he would only refer; it was
not touched by the resolution, but it was one which
must be fully discussed in that house—he meant the un-
constitutional position in which, from the occurrence of
unforeseen circumstances, the prerogative of the Crown
was placed as regarded the use of Indian finance and
the Indian army for purposes not local, but Indian
At present there were two armies at the disposal o
the Crown—the British army and the Indian army
The British army existed only by the power of Par
reiiau on
foot a standingle nt
liament. In the Bill of Rights it was declared to be a
.
high violation of the
withoutlibertiesethe
of
authority osuibtjy ocitptoar keep
and so much jealously was that authority exercised, the
there was no permanent licence. From twelvemonth t
twelvemonth an annual mutiny act declared the number
of the force, and every farthing of the cost was separately
voted by the house ; and if ever any measure involving
hostilities were to be carried into effect by the British
army, the Minister was obliged to inform the house by
message, and request their concurrence in his policy.
Such was the position of the British army ; but there
was another army, of which the Parliament and people
of England knew little, over the management of which
they had no control. Were they going to place in the
hands of the Crown the whole management of this
finance and this army ! (Hear.) Was it possible that
at this time of day the House of Commons could be so
forgetful of the traditions cif other times, so unworthy of
the duties that had descended on there, as to countenance
No unconstitutional an anemia?), ? When the time came
he would denounce in plain language so monstrous a
and the maintenance of their liberties at
doctrine, so dangerous to the maintenance of their
had done their duty as guardians of
of Parliament.
yrivi., Privileges lament. Let them not
suppose
uoo
pmwpeeo,r,
eai in
dh attk India,tehpe
their liberties, if after allowing this they established a
nominal Parliamentary responsibility. Let them not
lay their heads on their pillows with the idea they bad
discharged their duties because they bad retained the
power of calling the Minister to account. (Hear.) That
was a shadowy power, and they would not discharge
their duty if they surrendered auto the hands of the
Crown, or rather of those sitting on the Ministerial
bench, the while power the army arid taxes of the coun-
try, and say,' It is all right, they are responsible to
tho House of Commons." This question was not so im-
portant no long as the Indian wars and Indian army
were merely local; but they now ruled over two hun-
dred millions of men and were in contact with
a vast frontier. The jealousy of English statesmen
now saw, or imagined they saw, British, European,
and world-wide interest in Indian wars, and felt it
necessary to cross Asia, and mount the Persian Gulf, for
the purpose of using the regiments of the Indian army.
It seas time for the house to interfere; unless they wished