The Sun.
London, England, 1858-10-01 00:00:00

No. lII.—An Account showing the Revenue and other Receipts of the Quarter ended Sept. 30, 1858 ; the Application of the same ; and the Charge
of the Consolidated Fund for the said Quarter, together with the Surplus or Deficiency upon such Charge. -

Surplus Balance beyond the charge of the Consolidated Fund, for the Quarter
ended-June 30,1838, :

Great Britain
Ireland

X-t 16,054

416,054

Income received in the Quarter ended Sept. 30, 1858, as shown in Account I 16,964,052

Amount received in the Quarter ended Sept. 30, 1858, in repayment of Advances
for Public Works, ecc

427,042

£17,807,148

Balance, being the deficiency on the 30th Sept., 1858; upon the charge of the Con-
solidated Fund in Great Britain, to meet the Dividends and other charges
payable in the Quarter to Dec. 31, 1858, and for which Exchequer Bills-We-
liciency) will be issued in that Quarter

1,191,857

10,00'2,005.

ARMY CLOTHING CONTRACTS.

WEEDON, TRIJIISDAY EVENING.

The commissioners reassembled this 'morning
shortly after eleven o'clock—Mr. Selfe in the chair
—for the purpose- of continuing their inquiry into
the contract system as carried on. at Weedon. .
Eli Coats was the first witness, and in reply to
queitions by the Chairman, he said he was em-
ployed in the packing-room When he first came ,to
Weedon in March, 1856. His wages were 15s.
a-week. He remained in the packing-room only
about three weeks, when Mr. Elliott sent him into
the boot-room, where he remained only three weeks
longer, being objected to by Mr.-Watson, an in-
spector, on the ground that he passed goods too
easily. He was then a labourer, partly in the
yard and partly in the packing-room packing cloth.
Ile left the service in July, 1857. His reason for
leaving was because the wages were too low to
support him. He had since been living by his
trade of a shoemaker, and worked for Mr: Groom,
of Northampton. He knew the witness Witham
well, and saw him here last Saturday. Witham
said to witness, " You'll be wanted up there," and
he said he should be very glad to give any evidence
he could. He had been a packer with "Witham for
some time. He remembered on more than one
occasion Witham saying to Daly, a viewer, that
some cloth he was packing was damp, and Daly's
reply was that " the cloth was wanted, and it must
go.
By Col. French—He could not of himself say the
cloth was damp. He only heard Witham say so.
Mr. Watson used to set other viewers to look after
boots that witness had:passed. While he was at
Weedon he used to work, .for Mr. Groom during
over-hours. At that time Mr. Groom was a con-
tractor. Witness never made a military boot for
Mr. Groom while he was employed at Weedon.
He knew Groves and Holmes, but he never heard •
of Holmes charging Groves with taking bribes.
The Chairman remarked it was odd that Witham
should have conic on purpose to Weedon to see
witness and pass a night there, and that he told
witness • he should be wanted to give evidence,
whereas-he seemed really to have no evidence to
give.
By Mr. Turner—He did not get any extra pay
from Groom for work he made for hilt, on account
of his being•a viewer at Weedon. •
The Chairman said he should be sorry that the
country should.have to pay £3 or £4 for printing
the evidence of this witness ; if the commissioners
wished to refresh their memory on it they could
refer to very excellent sources of information.
Col. French and Mr. Turner concurred: in this
opinion, and the evidence was •ordered to be struck
out of the•short-hand writer's notes.
Mr. Thomas Randall, who represented the firm
of Parker: and Co., Higham.:Ferrers, was next ex-
amined. .He- said his• firm were contractors for
boots at Weedon, and had supplied altogether about
100,000 pairs of boots • they had been also engaged
largely under the old system,. he did not think
there was much difference in the profits under the
old and the new systems. The inspection at
Weedon was very rigid, but on the whole he had
not any reason to complain of it ; he thought the
objections made by the inspectors were reasonable;
his house had never employed persons as boot-
makers who were emplo,yed at Weedon. Rethought
it was necessary to have a strict inspection, but
he considered it wonld be desirable to have some
sort of reference in case of undue rejections.
The prices now were lower than they used to
be, although the articles supplied were equally
good ; the country certainly had the benefit of that;
he considered that open tenders were not always
advantageous to the public, as when they became
public the competition would have the effect of
raising the prices.
By Mr. Turner—The proportion of fluctuation of
labour in the boot trade within the last three years
was 10 per cent. ; the price of leather in the last
two years had fluctuated about 100 per cent. In
taking contracts from the Government when the
materials and labour were high, contractors were
satisfied to work for Government at almost no real
profit in order to keep the Government contracts.
By the Chairman—His house had determined
their running contracts with Government some-
times on account of their not being able to do the
work for the prices specified.
By Col. French—He did na find that his goods
suffered very rough treatment by the inspectors.
By Mr. Turner—He did not think it would in-
fluence his calculations if there was a reference.
He admitted that rejections were a loss, but the
contractors took into their calculations that there
would be some rejections.
By the Chairman—lf there was an appeal, that
would not have influenced his calculations at all.
By Col. French.—Under the old system the "am-
munition" boots were supplied through the army
clothier contractors.
Mr. Thomas Wetherell, a bootmaker at North-
ampton, stated he had ;been in the habit of supply-
irrg boots to Government by contract, both under
the old and new systems. The price now was higher
but the articles were better. He supplied the Go-
vernment with about 3,000 pairs of boots per month
for some years past. He considered that the in-
spection at Weedon was arbitrary. He had at times
come over to Weedon to complain of rejections,
but although the people at Weedon were very civil
he found the same thing continued ; the rejections
varied from 3 to 10 per cent. He had on some oc-
casions retouched up boots which had been rejected
at Weedon and sent them again there, and they
passed—having no other appeal he appealed to
himself. (A laugh.)
Chairman—Meal supnose your are quite satis-
fied with that mode of appeal? (Laughter.)
Witness—No, because it places me in a false
position. Witness went on to say that he did not
complain of the inspection being always too rigid,
latterly ; but he should like the inspectors to state
the grounds of their rejection. He thought if there
was a referee he should not be appointed by the
Government. He believed the pay of such a referee
would be very small, as the fact of there being a
referee would make the inspectors more careful in
rejecting goods, and consequently there would not
be much for the referee to do.
By Mr. Turner—ln the case of the boots which
were first rejected, and on being sent in by him
were passed again, he admitted be was appealing
not only to Inmfielf, but OPO to the judgment or

want of judgment of the inspectors. •(A laugh.)
He gave all hiS *Orkpeople a honus on all boots
'they made for the Government to induce them to
work well ;- and if any of the boots were returned
he made a deduction from the pay of his workmen ;
he was able to tell the work of each man by putting
a number on the boots he made. He never gave a
bribe to any of the people at Weedon nor did he
know of any one who had, although he had heard
the general rumours that bribery was practised at
WeedOn". He did not himself-believe those rumours;
but he believed more attention was paid at Weedon
to some contraetors'.goodS than to others ; but that
he considered only legitimate. • -
The witness was here shown a pair of sealed
pattern boots, which,he considered:were -not equal
in material to the original patterns. As. a matter
of opinion he thought the' back was East India kip,
and the uppers were also kip but they *ere made
some years, and that would afect their appearance.
As to the soles, he thought they were English butt,
although it was difficult to say, so much depended
on the tanning, which greatly altered the original
appearance of the leather. For his own credit, he
should never hate put such material in a military
boot. He thought from 7s. to Bs. would be a fair
price for the Government to , pay for such boots,
but he could not think the Government could pos-
sibly buy such boots.

The Chairman remarked that whether they ought
or ought not to have done so, it was a fact that the
Government had bought these boots ; but it must
be remembered that was two years ago.
Another sealed pattern boot shown to witness he
considered would be worth 9s. a pair.
Mr. Randall was recalled to give his opinion 9f
the boots: He considered that the-first boots-were -
not proper to have been sealed patterns. The
second patterns he considered much better, and
concurred in the opinion of the last witness as to
the comparative value of each pair of boots.
Mr. Wetherell was also recalled to explain in
what he complained of his boots which were re-
jected being handled with undue roughness by the
inspectors. He also stated that the price he charged
Government for his boots was 10s. a pair.
Mr. Edward Furness, Lambs' Conduit-street,
London, was next called. He stated he was a
bootcloser, and had served a regular apprenticeship
to the trade. He pronounced the boots already
mentioned to be of very inferior material, the
uppers being of East India kip of the most inferior
kind, and the soles of foreign butt. They were
not fit for soldiers' boots. He should say the value
of them was not more than 7s. 6d. a pair. The
other sample of boots was decidedly far better.
Witness examined yesterday 874 pair of boots by
the first or inferior pattern. He made out a lot of
390 pairs in which the uppers were worth more
-than 20 per cent. than the pattern. A lot of 312
was about 7 per cent. in the uppers, but in the
whole 874 pairs the soles were quite as good as the
pattern, but he should not say they were boots that
were good enough for the use of the troops, for
when the boots got thoroughly saturated with wet
a ridge formed inside, and the wearer was always
afterwards walking on ploughed land. (A laugh.)
He should say that such boots as these would not
stand above nine days' hard walking in very wet
weather, and he should not certainly say they
were fit to be sent to the' troops in India during
the rainy season. He considered the boot inspector
ought to be a bootmaker.
Mr. Turner—One equal to yourself, I presume.
(A laugh.)
Chairman—There is no vacancy at present, Mr.
Furness. (Laughter.)
Mr. W. Nicholls, a bootmaker at Rands, Nor-
thamptonshire, said he did not complain of the in-
spection at eedon, to which establishment he
supplied a large number of boots. Last year he
was startled by the large number of his boots re-
jected, and he came to Weedon to ascertain the
cause. He saw Mr. Hoile, one of the inspectors,
who sent two viewers with him to point out what
were the faults in the boots, and the viewers
pointed out " chalk marks," and also that the heels
were too low. Subsequently he sent in these boots
a second time to Weedon mixed up with other
boots, and he had no doubt the greater part of
them passed. Since that time very few of his
boots had been rejected; the strictness of the in-
spection did " drive " him to be more careful in the
quality of his boots.
Mr. Turner—Then it was a wholesome lesson to
you. (A laugh.)
Witness, in answer to further questions, said if
Government would furnish the contractors with an
appeal he was sure the Government would have
the benefit of it in lower prices. That appeal or
referee would give him greater confidence, and he
should say he could cut lower in his prices than to
the extent of 2d. or 3d. a pair, which in the large
number required would tell up soon. As Govern-
ment had already inspectors, he should say the
referee ought to be a thoroughly practical man, and
independent of the Government. He should just
as soon pay his share of the expenses of the referee
in case his goods were rejected as if they passed.
He never gave a halfpenny nor a halfpenny's worth
to any one at Weedon to make things pleasant,"
nor was he aware of any one who did.
Five different pairs of boots were here placed on
the table for witness to give his opinion of, respect-
ing which the chairman stated that the best and
second best pairs were samples of boots which had
been purchased by Mr. Levy at the Tower, the
third and fourth samples were the present issue,
and the fifth was the rejected lot. He considered
that the fifth pair had no goodness in them, but
they were as good as the sealed patterns. He could
not conceive who had sealed such a pattern. Wit-
ncss considered it would not matter in the least to
him if the boot depot was in London instead of
being at Weedon. He valued the first pair of
boots at 10s. 6d. ; the second at 10s. [These were
a part of 200,000 pairs of boots sold at the Tower,
purchased by Mr. Levy at ss. Old. a pair, re-sold
by him to contractors, and then sent into Weedon
by them and passed.]
Mr. James Dowie, bootmaker, Charing-cross, was
the next witness. He stated that the first and
second pairs of the boots were part of what he had
got from Mr. W. Shaw, who purchased from Mr.
Levy, and Levy told him he bought them at the
Tower. Pairs No. 3 and 4 were returned to wit-
ness 17 the Dumfries Militia ; they had been sup-
bplied from Weedon to the militia. The regiment
ad been suddenly difienabodiecla and haying thirty

Net Amount applied out of the Income for the Quarter ended Sept. 30, 1858, to re-
demption of Exchequer Bills (Deficiency) for the Quarter ended June 30, 1858

Amount applied out of the Income to supply Services, in the Quarter ended Sept.
30, 1358

Charge of the Consolidated Fund for the Quarter ended Sept. 30,1858, viz, : •
Interest of the Permanent Debt • £5,524,049
Terminable Debt 1,430,325
Interest of Exchequer Bills (Deficiency)
• The Civil List
Other Charges on Consolidated• Fund
• Advances, fin' Public Works, &c.

Surplus Balance beyond the charge of the Consolidated Fund, for the Quarter
ended Sept. 30, 1858, viz. :
•
Great Britain
Ireland

X83,0i1

£19,002,605

pairs of boots on hand which they did not want,
he agreed, to take them off their hands. On exa-
mining them- -he found two pairs which were not
of his making and on them he found the Aireedon
mark, from which he inferred that they had been
issued to the regiment from Weedon. He himself
had not supplied any boots direct to the Dumfries
.Militia.' "

Mr. Randall and Mr. Wetherell were recalled,
to say if they agreed with Mr. Nicholls as to the
relative value of the. boots, and they both quite
concurred in his opinion. _
In reply to Mr. Turner,
Mr. Dowie stated that he got the first pattern
pair of boots sealed by Sir Thomas Treubridye.
Mr. J. L. Folkard said he was one of the inspec-
tors of boots ; he had been examined before the
committee on contracts, and adhered to all the
evidence he gave before that committee. He re-
membered making a representation, in conjunction
with Mr. Watson, as to the state of the boots sent
from the Tower to Weedon ; there were 170,000
pairs of boots packed in casks sent from the Tower
to Weedon ; there were in all about 1,200 casks ;
he only opened and examined four of the casks.
In consequence of the representation made by wit-
ness and Mr. Watson, a committee was appointed,
of which Mr. "Ramsay and Mr. C. S. Elliott were
members, and witness was also a member. Evi-
dence was taken before that committee, and wit-
ness himself gave evidence on that occasion. The
boots were re-inspected ; there were none of them
thoroughly condemned; but 20,000 pair of them
were sent to the Tower for sale, by direction
of the Secretary for War. Mr. Watson selected
those 20,000 pairs ; witness had nothing to do with
it. Those 20,000 were taken indiscriminately from
the good and bad lots into which the boots were
divided.

The Chairman remarked that this mode of pro-
ceeding passed his understanding.
Witness was directed by the chaisinan to look at
the five pairs of boots on the table as already stated.
He said, with regard to one pattern, they were-such
as he should not have passed.
Chairman—We have had four practical boot-
makers here to-day, who concurred in the opinion
that patterns Nos. 1 and 2 are better than 3 and 4.
Do you agree in that ?
Witness—l do.

In answer to further questions, witness said that
he and Mr. Watson would be responsible if these
tioots were rejected and sent off to the Tower.
By Mr. Turner—The 20,000 pairs of inferior
boots sent to the. Tower were made up from the
whole of the boots.
The Chairman told the witness that he was not
giving his evidence in a proper manner. He should
remember that, although he was not upon his oath,
he should give his evidence with the same solem-
nity as if he was.
the witness went on to say—A cask was filled
with all doubtful boots, and marked with D out-
side ; there were 10,000 of those doubtful boots sent
in casks to the Tower ; and 10,000 more were also
sent to the same place, which he believed had not
been examined at all. He explained that the issue
of stores formed no part of his duty—that being
entirely the duty of Mr. Watson, which would ac,
count for his not being able to give the commis-
sioners more satisfactory information.
Mr. Noah Watson was the next witness. He
stated that he was inspector of boots and shoes at
Weedon. He had given evidence before the commit-
tee on contracts, and he adhered to that evidence
now. Mr. Ramsay and Mr. Elliott came down to
Weedon in con sequence of a report sent in by witness
and Mr. Folkard as to the bad quality of boots sent
from the Tower ; there was a re-inspection of all
these boots. Nearly every barrel of the boots was
opened, and the boots were taken out and examined.
There were 20,000 pairs of boots sent off, which
were worse than the 150,000 which were retained.
The re-inspection of the boots began on 18th
August, 1856, and continued till 27th September
or 3d October. Witness took part in the re-inspec-
tion with six permanent viewers' and eight super-
numerary viewers. He found, on referring to his
books, that the whole of the boots were not re-in-
spected, but nearly all were. There were three
classes of boots, doubtful, good, and condemned, at
the re-inspection. The re-inspection was ordered
on the representation of Mr. Folkard and witness.
His impression was that the whole of the Tower
boots were to be sold, and he was sure that in that
matter he was as careful in the re-inspection as if
the goods were to be issued to the service. He
should not condemn the boots (No. 1) now upon the
table. There were on the whole 170,000 pairs of
boots came from the Tower to Weedon. No. 3 and
4 were better than No. 2. Mr. Folkard was wrong
in saying that the last 10,000 boots sent for sale at
the Tower were taken indiscriminately from the
170,000 re-inspected.. He never saw any of
Wright's patent boots at Weedon. He presumed
there were other boots sold at the Tower besides
these 20,000 pairs. Witness was under suspension
at present owing to a dispute about Isaacs and
Campbell's contract, but the discrepancy had just
been rectified. which, he hoped, would lead to his
restoration. He and Mr. Folkard were on perfect
equality, and were on good terms with each other.
They had a joint responsibility, and were respon-
sible for all undue rejections if there were any.
Whenever contractors wished to be informe3 of the
reasons which led to the rejection of their goods,
he had no objection to point out to the contractors
the fault in the goods. The inspection now was as
rigid as it ever was. The rejections were not now
so numerous, which he attributed to a better de-
scription of goods being sent in. Witness had no
reason to suppose that corruption existed at Wee-
don. He remembered Groves being suspended
for not being sufficiently strict in passing goods,
which he attributed to his eyesight failing him.
He had read 'Witham's evidence, and that was
the first he ever heard of Groves being bribed. He
had no reason whatever to doubt the honesty of any
of the viewers employed at Weedon. His salary
now was £llO a year. He was a married man and
had three children. He had no private means be-
yond what he got from his parents. He was, during
Mr. Elliott's time, receiver, inspector, storekeeper,
and issuer. He was chief in three departments,
and had no one to check him. He did not think
that was a good system.
Win. Hall, a labourer, was then examined as fo
the_casks of boots that were sent to the Tower—He
fieN the inspection going Qn, The invt§ were