The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-17 00:00:00

I ! L

MANNING THE NAVY.

reading of the bill on the 7th of July was to raise A
discussion on the question, and not from any anticipa
tion of carrying it. The hon. member at great length
entered into the importance of the interests which the
bill proposed to deal with, and, by the forms
ck of the
house, the discussion at a quarter to six o'clo was
adj ourn ed.
PUBLIC GROUNDS AND PLAY-GROUNDS
BILL.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS. ESTELID.II.)
The Snuaware. took the chairUlTY at 12
TAX o'clockßlLL.
EDINBURGH ANN
Mr. A. BLACK moved the second reading of this
bill. Its object was to remove an enormous grievance,
and to abolish a tax that was opposed to the moral and
religious interests of the people of Scotland. He denied
that it would injure the Church of Sco
atland, but, on the
contrary, he believed it would confer material advan-
tage upon that establishment. After referring to the
establishment of the tax by Charles I. and its being ap-
plied to Edinburgh by the "merry monarch," the pro-
vision in 1661 was for six ministers, and was calculated
to yield about 1,090/., and in every subsequent act down
to 1809 the amount to be collected was for six ministers.
In 1809 a change took place, and the magistrates and
ministers tried to get the tax each for themselves. The
former, however, were successful, and they had to levy
the tax and pay the six ministers their six per cent.
The House bad heard a great deal said with reference
to this tax having been existence for 200 years, but he
happened to be in business in 1810 in Edinburgh, when,
to his surprise, and that of the inhabitants, they fou e
taxnd
the tax for the first time laid on the citizens. Th
was raised solely and entirely on the occupiers of houses.
Having shown the unhallored heritage of the tax, he
proposed to speak of its fruits in the shape of burthens.
This tax was now double the amount of the presen3toin_-.
come tax, and supposing a man to have rsti income
at ofhouosle
he would pay 61. per annum,when, if he l ncived in .
The
worth 501. nyear he had to pay double that amou
tax was levied upon all tenants, and alao upon charitable
, o_f_ which
institutions. The tax produced about 10,667/
about 2,2871. were paid by the followers of.the Uhurch,
and the balance, about 8,000/., by part.ies who had
really no interest in that Church. Two-thirds of the m•
habitants of Edinburgh did not belong to the Church,
and many believed it was contrary to thde Gooel to pay
this tax, and that in doing so hey were mug something
a felony. In one year 846 persons
like compounding
were prosecuted for not paying the tax. He was unable
to state how many had their goods sold ; bat five were
imprisoned for not paying the tax. He read the opinion
of Dr. Arnett, of the High Court of Scotland, and some
others, who believed the tax was bad, and should be
abolished—that it was injurious to religion, but they
objected to the tax being removed unless a substitute to
the full amount was provided. The church-rates of
England was a very small evil compared with the col-
lection of the tax in Scotland. The house had very,
properly passed a bill for the abolition of the church-
rates, and on a former session they abolished ministers'
money in Ireland. They were not bound to provide an
equivalent for this tax, but this measure proposed to
devote the 2,0001. now derivable from the revenues of
Leith, together with the money raised by the seat rents
in the City Churches, as a substitute for the present ob-
noxious tax. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAXTER seconded the motion. This bill was
supported by the rate-payers of Edinburgh and Mon-
truse, and by every man in the United Kingdom who
objected to Dissenters being taxed for the Established
Church. He called upon the Irish members to assist
Scotland in getting rid of this tax in return for the
assistance the latter gave the former in abolishing
Ministers' Money. The only opponents to the bill were
the Protestant clergymen and their followers. Under
the new system the clergymen would be amply pro-
vided for. This tax was imposed in Montrose in
1689, and was then considered objectionable. It
was now collected on every man who paid
9d. a week rent. If her Majesty's Government opposed
the bill they were bound to devise a satisfactory scheme
for getting rid of this tsx.
Mr. BLACKBURN said he had been instructed on
the origin of this tax different to the personal experience
`of the lion_ member for Edinburgh. He (Mr. Blackburn)
had been informed that this tax was granted to the town
of Edinburgh for ecclesiastical property granted in the
time of Mary and James. The hon. member had dwelhe
t
for some coneiderasle time on the grievances, but
never touched on the details of the bill. He (Mr. Black-
burn) admitted aorne injustice existed in the levying of
the tax, but he doubted if the bill would remedy it. He
moved the second reading of the bill this day six months.
Mr. BUCHANAN seconded the amendment.
Mr. J. B. SMITH supported the bill. He believed
it was founded on justice to all classes.
Mr. CO WAN considered the annuity tax an obnoxious
church rate, levied upon the humbler classes to the ex-
clusion of those who were in good circumstances, and
were best able to pay the tax. This bill, whilst it pro-
tected vested interest, would give the relief required. 3
. Mr. F. SCOTT opposed the bill. After reviewing
the history of the imposition of the tax, and the subse-
quent legi lation on it, he called upon the house not to
assent to the principle of the bill, which would
inflict injury to the Church and to the population,
who had a right to attend the church without
the payment of pew rents. He considered
'this bi:l an insiduous attempt to subvert the Church
Establishment in Edinburgh, and by so doing to give
an immense leverl to those who would oppose that
Church, the amicable: rivalry of which with the ,Free
Church of Scotland had done such an essential service
to that country.
Mr. GILPIN compared the discussion to the old
discussion in reference to Church-rates in England,
,Ministers Money in Ireland, and by a similarity of
reasoning Ministers Annuity Tax for Scotland. Re
believed the pressure of the tax was felt more in Edin-
burgh than was Church-rates in England, or had
'Ministers' Money in Ireland. So far from this bill dis-
cetablishirl the Church in Scotland, he believed that
that Church had already done it herself.
Mr. C. BRUCE differed from the hon. member for
Montrose, that the clergy of the Establishment in Scot-
land and its members were the only persons who opposed
the bill. It eas of jected to by all those who contended
-against the principle of confiscation, of wrong, and of
injustice. (Hear, hear.)
Sir E. CO LEBROOKE thought the bill did not pledge
the house to those extreme principles that appeared to
excite alarm iu certain quarters. The tax was most ob-
jectionable and injurious to the Church in its present
form, and whilst he wished to afford relief to Edin-
burgh, he was not disposed to go into the opposite
extreme, and place Edinburgh in a different
*position to any other place in Scotland. In com-
mittee the bill could be modified. If the Govern-
• ment refused a reduction of the city clergy, and impose
a tax more moderate in its amount and bearing on a dif-
ferent class of the people, he was prepared, looking at
the injustice, to adopt the bill even as it new stood than
continue a law so injurious and dangerous to the Church.
(Hear, bear.)
The LORD ADVOCATE could not assent to any
bill that proposed to take away the provision for the
Established Church without an adequate and 'ample
equivalent were provided. The question which solved
into this was whether the equivalent proposed by the
bill was such as was, or ought to be, satisfactory to the
clergy of the Established Church, or those who maintained
her rights in that house. The tax as it was now levied, all
were agreed was levied in a most unfortunate manner.
The present system was a most inexpedient one, and no
mao would rejoice more than he would to see a measure
devised that would have the effect of abolishing this
obnoxious tax altogether consistent with providing an
equivalent. The noble lord then entered at c )nsider-
able length into the origin, &c., of this tax, and the de-
tails of the bill, in comparison with the details of former
bills. It was a bill of absolute abolition, and the funds
for the maintenance of the clergy were to be supplied in
this way-2,0001. from the revenue of Leith, which he
thought unjust, and was objectionable to the
• people of Leith. The next was the produce of
.the seat rents of the City Chambers. That
he thought objectionable, as well as seat
• rents. Ile was favourable to an alteration of the pre-
sent system, and when he was in office in 1852, though
not in that house, he had prepared a bill for Lord Derby's
Government for its settlement. He would never consent
• to such a sham and delusion as this bill was for the
settlement of this vexed question.
Lord DUNCAN regretted the Lord Advocate bad
not pledged her Majesty's Government to introduce a bill
' upon the susjsct, after having expressed his objection to
its continuance in its present form. He should support
- the second reading of the bill.
- Mr. tIORSMAN appealed to her Majesty's Govern.
ment, after the admisson of the learned Lord-Advocate
in favour of the principle of the abolition of the tax, to
agree to the second reading, and let the consideration
of the details be discussd reedi
ts future stage. He (Kr.
Horsman), though he ag the principle, had some
of jection to the details. His voting for the second read-
ing of the bill would not commit him to an approval of
its details. (Divide.)
The house then divided. The number.; were—
For the second reading. .................. 129
• - ' Against it .. ...... . ... .............
—1
........ 130
Majority against second reading...—
The bill was consequently lost.
HEIRS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill was withdrawn. •
REGISTRATION OF COUNTY VOTERS (SCOT-
LAND) BILL.
On the motion for going into committee,
Mr. DUNDAS moved that the Speaker should leave
the chair this day six months. (Laughter.)
After sorne remarks from Mr. BUCHANAN,
Tne LORD ADVOCATE suggested that the further
' progress of the bill should be postponed or taken pro
forma, fur the pm pose of proposing amendments here-
after.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE, who introducedg the bill,
assented to the suggestion on the understanding that
her Majesty's Government would find a day for the
further consideration of the bill.
Mr.' C. BRUCE urged the stage should be taken pro
flui:.aa.ndivithoexiii,Geossion taken on a future day.
to
the of the OMERY objected to the bill on the
to the expenseptiocwe it woulA Ile did not object
8;r es. of the bill, but to its details.
W considered delay would in real ty
&feat the bill.
Mr. W. Minas and Mr. BLACKBURN said time would
be saved by adopting the
u
After some further discuusZew e suggested.r
e
The house divided. The numbers
Fur going into committee.., ....
Against it .................................... 96
Majority ........................ 108
The amendment was then agreed . to. .......... —l2
INSURANCE ANTI D
ONS ASSURANCE
BILL.
INSTITU-
Mr. SHERIDAN moved the postponement of the
tescond reading of this bill till the 7th July.
Mr. HENLEY suggested it was late at this period
of the session, and should be withdrawn. It would be
- impossible this session to carry the measure, and unless
• the bon member gave that promise he (Mr. Henley)
should move its second reading this day six months.
, After some discussion,
.Mr. S. ESTCOURT moved the second reading of the
bill this day six months.
Mr. SHERIDAN said hie object for fixing the second

This bill passed through committee.
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT
CONTINUANCE BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
CHURCHES, &c., (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
The other orders were disposed of, and the botnie
adjourned at 5 minutes to 6 o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—JUNE 16.
EDINBURGH, &e. ANNUITY TAX BILL.
Motion made, and question proposed, " That the bill be now
read a second time :"--Amendment proposed, to leave out
the word " now," and at one end of the question to add
the words " upon this day six. months ;"—Question put,
" That the word ' now' stand part of the question :"—The
house divided ; Ayes 129, Noes 130.

AYES-129.

Adair, 11. Fagan, W. Perry, Sir E.
Adeane, H. Fitzroy, Hon. H. Philipps, R.
Agnew, Sir A. Foljambe, F. Pigott, F.
Anderson, Sir J. Forster, C. Pinney, Colonel
A.yrton, I. Fortescue, F. Portman, W.
J
Bagwell, John Fox, W. J. Raynham, Viscount
Baines, Rt. Hon. M. Freestan, Col. Rebow, John
Baring, T. Garnett, W. Ridley, G.
Biggs, J. Gibson, M. Robartes, T.
Bland, L. Gilpin, Charles Roupell, W.
Bouverie, Hon. E. P. Gregson, S. Russell, H.
Bouverie, on. P. P. Greville, Col. F. Russell, A.
Brady, J. Grey, R. Salisbury, E.
Brand, H. Hadfield, G. Shelley, Sir J.
Bright, J. Hall, Sir B. Sheridan, R. B.
Buller, J. W. Hardcsgitle, J. Smith, J. B.
Butler, C. Harris, J. Smith, A.
Caird, James Headlam, T. Stapleton, J.
Cavendish, W. Horsman, E. Steuart, Andrew
Clay, James King, L . Stuart, Lord J.
Clive, G. Kinglake, A. Sullivan, Michael
Codrington, General Kinglake, J. Talbot, C.
Colebroke, Sir T. Kinnaird, A. Taylor, S.
Corbally, M. E. Knatchbull-Hugessen Thompson, Gen.
Cowan, C. Langton,H. G. Thornely, T.
Cox William Laslett, W. Tite, W.
Craufurd, E. H. J. Locke, John Trelawny, Sir 3.
Crossley, F. Macarthy, A. Turner, J. A.
Davie, Sir 11. B. F. M'Cann, J. Waldron, L.
Deasy, R. MacEvoy, E. Watkins, Col.
Denison, W. H. Maguire, J. Weguelin, T.
Dent, J. Marsh, M. Westhead, J.
De Vere, S. Marshall, W. Whatman, J.
iwyn, L. Martin, P. White, J.
Dil
Duff, L. Melgund, Viscount Wickham, H. W.
Duncan, Viscount Mellor, John Wilcox, B.
Dundas, F. Mills, T. Williams, W.
Dunkellin, Lord Mitchell, Thomas Winnington, Sir T.
Dunlop, A. Monseli, W. Wise. J.
Elliot, J. Morris, D. Wood, W.
Elton, Sir A. Napier, Sir C. Young, A.
Evans, T. W. Nicol, D. TELLERS.
Baxter, W. E.
Ewart,",W, O'Brien, P.
Black, Adam
Ewing, H. Ogilvy, Sir J.
NOES-130.
Naas, Lord
Adams, W. Hardy, G.
&kroyd, E. Henley', J. Newport, Viscount
Arbuthnott, Gen. Henniker. Lord Ossulston, Lard
Colonel
Bailey, Sir J. llodgscn, W. Pakenham,
Pakington, Sir J.
Bernard, T. Holford, R.
Bernard, Col. Hope, A. Palmer, Robert
Patten, Col. W
Barrow, W. Hopwood, John .
Beecroft, G. Hornby, , W. Peel, Gen.
Bentinck, G. W. P . Horsfall, T. B. Per
Philipcy, J.
H.
Blakemore, T. Hotham, Lord s. J.
Powell, F.
Booth, Sir Rt. Gore Home, W.
Botfield,B. Ingestre, Viscount Ramsay, Sir A.
Bridges, Sir B. Inglis, J. Robarl Rolt ertson, P.
Buchanan, W. Jermyn,E, J.
Buller, Sir J. Johnstone, 11, B. Rust, James
Burghley, Lord Johnstone, J. Hope Sclater, G.
Burrell, Sir C. Jolliffe, Sir W. Scott, F.
Cairns:X. Joliffe, H. Scott, Major
Child, Smith Jones, D. Seymer, H.
Christie, Samuel. Kelly, Sir F. Sibthorp, Major
Clark, J. Kerrison, Sir E. Smith, Sir F.
Cole, H. A. Knight, F. Smollett, A.
Corry, H. T. L. Langton, W. Spaight, J.
Cross, R. Lefroy, A. Spooner, R.
Disraeli, B. Lennox, Lot dH. Stanhope, J.
Dobbs, W. Lisburne,: Earl Stirling, W.
Dod, J. W. Lockhart, A. E. Stewart, Sir M.
Taylor, Col.
Dundas, G. Lovaine, Lord
Dutton,R. Lowther, Col. H. C. Tollemache, J.
El phinstone, Sir J. Ly all, Cl, urge Trollope, Sir J.
Estcourt, T. Lygon, Hon. F. Vansittart, G.
Farquhar, Sir M. Lytton, Sir G. Verner, Sir W.
Fergus, J. Macartney, G. Walcott, Admiral
Finlay, A. Mackie, J. Warren, S.
Forde, Colonel Malins, R. Whiteside, J.
Whitmore, H.
Forester, Col. Manners, Lord J.
Forster, Sir G. March, Earl of Wyndham, General
axwell, Col. Wyndham H.
Galway, Viscount M
Goddard, A. Miles, W. Wynne, W.
Gray, Captain Miller, T. Yorke, E.
Grogan, E. Miller, S. B.
Hamilton, Lord C. Mills, Arthur
Hamilton, G. A. Montgomery, Sir G.
Blackburn, Peter
Hamilton, J. H. Morgan, 0. ,
Hamilton, Capt. Mowbray J. R.' Bruce, C.

TELLEILS.

REGISTRATION OF COUNTY VOTERS (SCOTLAND)
Motion made, and question proposed, " That Mr. Speaker
do now leave the chair :"—Amendment proposed, to leave
out from the word "That" to the end of the question, in
order to add the words " this house will, upon this day six
months, resolve itself into the said committee, instead
thereof :—Question put, " That the words proposed to be
left out stand part of the question :"—The house divided ;
Ayes 96, Noes 108.

414""
9:81I3N, LONDON, THURS DAY EVENIN'O, JUNE_ 17, 1858

exists in the Himalayas. " I have long thought,"
says General Tremenheere, "and have endeavoured
to make known my opinion, that if the districts in
the vicinity of Monghyr were thoroughly investi-
gated, and the iron, the coal, and the limestone
brought within easy access of one another, the
most valuable results might be obtained." Lime
is wanting in India, but its place is supplied by
" kunker, ' which is an impure carbonate of lime,
used for building purposes. Vegetable and mine-
ral opulence thus present themselves, and only re-
quire the aid of European skill to be turned to
the best account in a country where labour is
cheap, and the natives apt at receiving instruc-
tion. We may judge of the cheapness of food by
the fact that the prices of wheat at Lahore and
Mooltan, as stated by General Tremenhere, were
equivalent to is. 6d. and ls. 31d. per Winchester
bushel of 601 b ; and it is expected that the cost will
be much lower when the Punjaub canals are formed
and uninterrupted traffic established down the In-
dus to Kurrachee.—Morning Herald.