The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-10 00:00:00

TilE SUN, LONDON WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY lO, 1658

that has been committed in France ; that, far from sym-
pathising with, we are indignant against, those assassins
who perpetrated the crime, but that not for the friendship
of the Emperor of the French are we disposed to give up
the right of asylum, or to change the ancient and esta-
blished laws of England. (Loud cheers.) Sir, I think the
French Government would appreciate as it would deserve
to be apprecisted the frankness, the sincerity, and I may
say the friendliness of that course. (Hear ) We should
thereby spare ourselves these irritating discussions; we
should relieve the Government of France from any expec-
tations that by the direction of their official paper they
could induce the Parliament of Eugland to recede from its
just position. (Hear.) I trust we shall act in that man-
ner. I have, I confess, been a good deal shocked by some
of the declarations which have been male in the course of
this debate—declarations from which it would seem that
the favour of a foreign power is to be considered of more
value to England than the maintenance of her ancient
laws. (Cheers.) It think that those who epsak in this
manner, and who give their votes for bri ging in this bill,
incur a vast responsibility, both to the present genera-
tion and to posterity. (Hoar.) This is the first brea'cing
in upon that system which was declared by the Go-
vernment of 1803, and which has remained intact
up to the month of February, 18:8. Who can say what
the next step in this .'irection will be ? It is easy to
ask for a mild measure, and at first to satisfy a foreign
power; bat any dame id of this kind naturally arouses the
jealousy and susceptibility of the British people. Tile only
other care in which I remember a bill to have Win brought
in at the request of a foreign power is that of the Foreign
Enlistment Act. Mr. Canning, in introducing that act,
took the utmost care to explain that Spain was sa weak a
monarchy that she was quite unable to contend with her
n
neighbours in arms ; he painted the weakness of her re-
sources, and her inability to defend herself, an I he asked
whether we could be so ungracious as not to afford her that
successful. No appeal could now be male
to us du that ground ; the threat has been somewhat too
barely exposer, somewhat too loudly uttered ; it has been
Tprhaattec atpireal agwaiansstforeign invasion which she required.
se uttered, that I confess if I were to vote for the intro-
duction of this bill, I should feel shame and humiliation
in giving that vote. Let those who will, support the bill of
the Government ; that shame ani humiliation I am deter-
mined not to share. (Loud cheers.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, notwithstanding
the wide field over which the noble lord had passed, he be-
lieved the decision of the house would, after all, tura on
the question with which he started—viz , whether or not
the present law was sufficient for the purpose ; and, with
great deference to the noble lord, he would declare his own
belief that it was insufficient. He ventured to say that the
law on this subject was more anomalous in its operation
and more inadequate to the attainment of the object than
any other branch of our criminal law. One reason, why an
alteration was required was the change of circumstances.
Increased communication had brought into this country a
number of persons who were opposed to the laws of their
native land. England gave them protection, but it was not
unreasonable to require that they should have it on the same
conditions on which it was enjoyed by Englishmen. If
Englishmen conspired in England to send an Englishman
abroad to commit a murder,-those who remained here might
be indicted for the offence; if foreigners conspired here for
the same purpose, any of the number who remained would
only be punishable with floe mad imprisonment; they
would only have committed at common law a misdemean-
our. That was an anomaly in the position of foreigners as
coin pared with Englishmen which, independently of the
severity of the punishment, required alteration. More-
over, he would put it to the house whether the crime of
conspiracy to commit murder was adequately punished by
fine and imprisonment? The noble lord had said that this
bill would be of no avail, because those who would be
affected by it were euthucasts. But the measure did not
propose to legislate for enthusiasts. It would legislate not for
those who went out to commit murder, but for those con-
spirators who remained behind. The pnniehrnent for those
les whoa' c,j %, C
The noble lord, too, objected against the bill, that it was.
net a legal iefcirm, for it was not introduced as a legal
measnra, and allusion was then made to those consolida-
tion bills which were to be brought before the house. Now
the feet was that the present bill could not properly be
introduced with oth-r bills. Those were measures based
upon the report of the statute law commission, and they
were in the main in the nature of bills to consolidate exist-
ing statutes. They did no doubt in some degree amend
the law, but it would have beou a very unfit course to have
placed provisions amongst their clauses amounting to so
totally novel a step in legislation as the present bill. Such
provisions would there II eve been out of place. But sup-
pose the government had taken such a course, and intro-
duced the clauses oZ this measure into that bill, what then
would have been said? It would have been said that at
the request of France an alteration was about to be made
in our law, and that an endeavour was made to shuffle that
alteration unobserved through the House of Commons.
It had been almost admitted by some that this was A
good bill, bat it was said the house ought not to pass it
new. Redly he could not see why a bill should
be thrown out on Tuesday to he introduced on Thurs-
day. In truth, it was not over easy to arrive at
what, were the real objections to the bill. It must
be aslinittd that if the noble lord established his pro-
position, that the bill was not an improvement of the law,
and that fine and irnprisonmeet were sufficient puniel-
ments, then no doubt legislation was unnecessary, but the
instances given by the noble lord failed to bear out hi,
statement. Indeed, the only tensible objection to the
measure was this, that it ought not to be passed at the
present time. But ho trusted that the house would look
at its content', and if it wee found t ) be an improvemect
in our criminal code, that it would not hesitate to pass
sir. DISRAErel—The principle of the proposed bill of the
noble lord (Lord Palmerston) I apprehend to he this—it is
to change the crime of combiuiug and conspiring to murder
from misdeamnour to felony. Upon this point there has been
co siderable discussion. So far as the debate is concerned, it
nay still be deemed a mooted question. Nor does it appear
to me necessary, according to the usual order of our business,
17';.pemaoillftineeptas-71ha
fle' nientnid? denouncedpeeelild
it
takeP n o
) that this point should be decided at the present stage of the
measure. If this bill comes to a second reading----(ironical
cheers)—that will bu the legitimate occasion upon which the
house may enter fully into that importaut point of the dis-
cumin ; and no doubt it will ree,'ive, as it is entitled to, the
most grave and dispassionate consideration. Bet at this
moment there are some other ,observations which I intend
making. I mu,t remind the hou3 that it has not been un-
usual in the hi-tory of this eonatry, and in the practice of
Parliament, that when some crime has been committed
some crime known to the law—Parliament should take the
circumstance under its considerations with a view to legisla-
tion. Throughout this debate,ti
nforonel,eq.iiritielenwttyh
i.acliilitutrsioimoenn,:nolassflehataa,amorsipbl.e,,too:,gbiir.,siteeiiisioohinriff
made to the (litre, cute of the law upon the matter under dif-
elusion between Eugland and Ireland. But how came that
diffe ence ? It was owing to the peculiar circumstances of
Ireland. The prevalence of conspiracy to murder ha 1 led
the attention of Parliament to the stihjlet, and though I offer
no opinion upon the expediency of the course wh elm 1001
beets adopted, still it is a fact
ryth aotfmtamllilei
stpsrriy:esicieiitial
deallitn-cc,eludmi
stances of that country induce 1 Parliament to legislate
for it in the avenues it had done. There is a other
h
n
cwaisdec hw legislation oyesti,ntssiveFwbt;:htielszesriotencionet induced
Throne—the m
ebnlyt he special circumstances
ate Mr. Harley, the then
the
Iris
Cockpit at a sitting of
cause of great exciteme .t.
this Louse arc peculiarliyiknimiteildiutneeuts
the House of Commons
ot(teGihfm: tecutaillinieciesseacillas;:oire;;cooaofiflttit:tleihseslmeli :1E1) ctc;:eciTulle'hetatolluofy,;gra.
a,gssi 4u:si
G
eospyl
Idddvlast
m
t
eloquently step ? Did it take no means of expressing its opinion o. the
bille:c rwmlinti which )f the
rendered° fre
°Cele° crime lrhpoyrfasastiitroe'irni assassinateteopb,tti
reprobation
of oms:
(kl,-ar, hear.) As
s of
se•evge::ntlos 'ttsisirlit;easel;sitiveYasee°2liuteiiisi°nrsefelelosl:. for me to attempt to
efcelvinligicsh ofhapseci'iLli\se'r horror.
deaouneed by members
wars been
detain the
rho
cierced in
lthietuits givingto
crime toti,iliAii,isme,el
has
ioetl:elittnnmtirsty;acewixocirtiiiill
bear.)
swirl
But the state of the ease is that a great crime
has been attempted to be perpetrated against a Sovereign
ha:Unreasonable, where
opinion upon the
with whom we are at this moment ou terms of friendly and
the safety of the person of one of the most fri ndly and pow-
erful of our allies is concerned, that his life should be thought
principle intimate
oafl alliance.
of less interest to Parliament than that of a British Minister.
All the circumstances connected with the attack on the ilie ec.measure, 'v
Em-
peror of the French would, of course, excite the sympathy
and demand tee good feeling of this country and of Parlia-
ment. (Hear.) There can be no question but that during
the last five years we have found in the Emperor of the French
a constant and tried ally—(hear, hear)—not merely an ally
using fine phrases and specious assurances, but an ally
whose fidelity was well proved, and on whose constancy we
might depend. (Cheers.) Therefore, on the first blush of
the question, the fact that strikes us is that an attempt
has been made on a great scale to assassinate the Emperor
of the Freuch, MI attempt which showed very considerable
organisation, and that plan was formed and matured in our own
country. (No, no,and Hear, hear,) Well, I don't wish to enter
into the details of this subject, but roarer what I state is a mat-
ter of notoriety, that some of the principal agents framed and
designed their plans in this country. These, I say, are cir-
cumstances which, though they do not justifyany attempt to
invade or destroy the right of asylum, yet do jn-tify the house
in exhibiting considerable sympathy' with the Emperor of the
French. If no oihercitenniitancerflead happeted*—if n 6 other
matters were before us, but that a greatand most criminal at-
tempt had been-made on the life of theruler of France, and if
under such circumstances, an appeal had been made to the
Government of England for our support in the dangerous po-
sition in which the Emperor of the French found himself, I
believe the universal expression of feeling would be that such
an appeal, with due regard to our own rights and privi-
leges, should be treated with the utmost respect. But I
frankly and fully admit that much has happened since the
attempt at perpetrating this enormous crime which has dashed
that feeling, and disturbed the generousand natural emotions
of the people and Parliament, and have embroiled this ques-
tion with considerations which could not have been antici-
pated, and which I would not dealfrankly with the hous s if I
did not say were most distressing and embarrassing. (Hear.)
I am not here to defend or palliate any circumstances which
have been so severely, but so justly, animadverted upon in
the course of this debate. I do not think that despatch of
Count Walewski's (though it has found'a defender in an hoe.
friend of mine) is written with that tact, temper, and good
sense whi h generally characterise his lucnbrations. I am
bound to admit that that despatch was as unfortunate des-
patch. I do not wish to deny for a moment that the observa-
tions of some of the culeuels ware tho height of impertinence
(Laughter.) I think.thattheintroduction of those observations
into the authentic and authoritativejournel of the empire was
an act of i signal
n-iscretion. But after the despatch which
has been read by tho Secretary of State this evening, I am
not inclined to dwell as much as I otherwise shonid upon
those matters. We all know in plicate life, however excited
our feelings may be when ruisunders:anding arises, however
warm our expression 3, and however indignant our feelings,
that the moment a gentleman says that he regrets the offen-
sive expressions made use of, we forget the offence---(hear,
hear) --and if this is done with a good grace and n •t in a
churlish mood, very often the feeling which succeeds is one
of greater cordiality than that which preceded the misunder-
standing,. (Hear.) Now, sir, I must say that that expres-
sion of regret on the part of the Emperor of the French was
A frank and full one— (elteers)—and I do not think that it
becomes us after that to remember with too much severity
those incidents to which I have referral. If I refer to them,
if I dwell upon their unfortunate occurrence, it is simply that
I may induce hon. gentlemen, before they come to any deci-
sion upon this very important subject, to re.olleet that what
has occurred recently within these few days or weeks in
France, which has excited so much unfortunate feeling in
this country, and it is I believe created so much misapprehen-
EiOn, has,nest been peculiar to this canary only; but there
are other countries, great even as England, and with power
as grcat eves as those Who hold may iu these highly twoured

isles, who have sometimes been subjected to annoyance
equally flagrant, but who have exhibited great good feeling
—great forbearance—and have not allowed these occurrences
to disturb the amicable course of dealing between the two
countries. (Cheers.) I cannot help recollecting that it is
exactly five years ago this very month of February—l be-
lieve, by a singular coincidence, this very night in February,
1853—that it was my duty to submit a motion to the House
of Commons, the object of which was to call the attention
of the house to the state of the relations subsisting
between France and England. That motion was brought
forward in consequence of expressions having been
made, and a line of conduct having been assumed,
by great personages in this country, which, in my opi-
nion, and in the general o, Mimi of Europe, were calcu-
lated to destroy the good fecli .g which we have always con-
sid,Ted—(loud cheers)—it was a cardinal point of I olicy to
cherish and maintain between England and Franco. I recur
to these recollec dons because I see the beneficial influence
which memory may exercise over hon. gentlemen who have
made these indignant speeches, if they will only rocollect what
has T wed, what happened in 1853 under a Government of
which the noble lord who has just spoke and who fools such
humilitY ion at even voting in support of the bid, was an emi-
neut member, and, indeed, I believe, the leader in this house ?
Why, sir, you had statesmen of England, the most eminent,
denouncing the Emperor of the French as a tyrant, and
usurper, and despot. (Loud cheers.) You had then a Cabi-
net Minister quitting the Cabinet, and hastening to the hus-
tings to amuse his constituency by depicting the dangers of
their country from the impending piratical invasion of the
French people. (Laughter and cheers.) You had a Cabinet
Minister saying to his constituency, "What protection have
you for wives and daughters with such an alliance as the
French—with such an ally as the Emperor of France ?"
(Laughter and cheers.) I had to bring these circumstances,
and many similar ones, before the considera ion of this house,
because I felt that, if announced by this house, they were
calculated to seriously impair, if net destroy, the relations—
the amicable relations —which subsisted between the two
countries. And what did we see ? We witnessed, in conga
queue() of that debate, the gratifying exhibition of statesman
after statesman, Cabinet Miuiiter after Cabinet Minister,
apologising for the off.nsive expressions they had used
towards the Emperor of the French. (Laughter and cheers.)
That was a very salutary spectacle. (Rear.) It did a great
deal of good. It conduced to the maintenance of the peace
of Europe ; and it conduced to the maintenance of the pea 4
of Europe only because the French Emperor was a forgiving
and forbearing man. Were the statesmen of England less
offensive in their observations than the co!onels of France to
us? (Cheers ) If the Empo or of the French and the French
nation could endure those insults ,of English Cabinet
Ministers, I really think that the people of England can
pocket the insults of the French colonels. (Loud laughter
and cheers.) I will now, in two or three sentences, explain
the course which I feel it my duty to take in reference to this
projected measure, and the general subject before us. I thi k
it necessary for us to take a large view of this question. What
we have to consider are the relative positions of England and

France. The alliance between the two countries has, under
different forms of Government, and with various degrees of
feeling, subsisted now for upwards of a quarter of a contrary.
At no period has it beep- warmer, at no period has it
.been
more effective, than under the present dyn ,sty, and daring
the last five years especially. We fought aids by side with
the French iu a war of almost unexampled severity -we have
comblued with the French people in the management of im-
portant affairs —our councils have been united, notwithstand-
ing national prejudices which undoubtedly exist ; and every
Court in Europe, as well in Asia and America, have felt the
influence of our united councils. I believe it is true when I
say tlkkt I think the feeling of the rest mass of the English
people is a genuine and cordial feeling. (Cheers.) I thiok
the great body of the people look to the French people with
a feeling of sincere friendship. On occasions like the pre
sent, when it is necessary to speak without disguise, I am.
bound to say, so far sal canobserve, although there are many
eminent persons in France, although there are many influen-
tial classes in Franco favourable, and highly favourable, to
v at is called ; and all;bea.ol I think a ten.
deney, slight, buteordial, tendency of feeling throughout toe
French Empire increases in favour towards the people of this
country, yet I am bound to admit that I do not think tha•
on the part of the great body of the French peo,,le there is
that reciprocity of sentiment with the people of this country
--there is not that similarity of feeling which we extent to
them. (Cheers.) Now, under these circumstances, what is
the position of the ruler of that country, who has the good
sense to feel that an alliance between Englaeld and France
is a policy eminently calculated for the welfare of his
own country f What difficulties be has to encounter. We
must remember that, although he may from his personal ex•
perience, from the character of his mind, from a thousand in-
fluences which operate u,,on a person of his elevated intellect
in his elevated posit' ou—althongh he may arrive at a coa .
ie-
tion that the maintenance of an alliance between the two
countries is eminently conducive to the welfare of that France
which he governs, still ho is the chief representative of those
feelings and that policy ; and although in prosperous times,
and in moments of prolonged tranquillity, he may, by Lis
commanding abilities, be able successfully to manage the
affairs between the two countries, and to cherish and increase
that good feeling which pervades France, yet, in moments of
public excitement, when the minds of the people are agitate 1,
it is clear that the position of the present ruler must he ono of
immense delicacy. (Hear.) And he comes, the faithful and
generous ally of this country—(hear, hear)—he comes, not
with threats, although lie may have acted with some appear-
ance of passion ; but lie can well afford to act in such a man-
ner who can afford to mare the noble apology which we have

just heard. The Emperor of the French on these recurring
moments of difficulty, this generous and faithful ally, comes
to the Government of this country ant says do not dis-
guise the difficulties of your position, but assist me consist
ently with your laws and rights ; I have lived too long in yo r
country not to know that no Britith Minister dare to whisper
a project for introducing a measure by which your laws and
privileges might-be violated. But aid me at this moment ;
show to France, when all these hostile factious are raising
their heads and jeering me with the British alliance, on which
I have been buildinz my policy, show them that my coufi-
deuce has net been misplaced. I think under these circum-
stances it was the duty of the Government to rvspond to that
appeal, and not to lend a deaf. ear to such an appeal to this
country. I feel that there is nothing unconciliatory in sup-
porting any Government in any effort which they make to
contiuue.the alliance between England and Franco, which is
the key and corner stone of modern civilisation. As to the
way in which the Government have attempted to carry that
olicy into erect, that is altogether another question. It
is difficult to conceive what' they may have cont mplat d
' themselves7—what object they proposed, and what wore the
gMC us iwiiich they intended to carry that object into-effect.
The noble lord the member for London (Lord J. Russel
spooks of this country being, disgraced, and the Parliament, as
dishonoured, if they accede to the demand the French
Emperor, because it has been urged by a threat. Why, we
have not acceded to the demand of the Fren h Emperor
All that has been demanded has been flatly refused. if indeed
the French Emperor is to be held responsible for the unfor-
tunate despatch of his Secretary of State. For, indeed, the
demand insisted ou by Ccuut Wale wski cannot be listene 1 to ;
at the firstbluahit WWI swept off from out of the ma trials of
public coun el, and that is he best a swer to the sneer and
taunt of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell). We are to do
nothing udder a. threat, because all that has been demanded'
l,as been refused. What we are to do is anothe - question.
I admit I make lanai and frank admissi u, that a pro,,osition
less satisfactory never appears to me to has”.! b en made by a
British Minister than the o. e which is now on your table.
(Hear, he avd laughter.) The English Minister should
have been iu a positiou to show that the ruler of France had
placed before him a statem nt of his grievances iu the form of
a State paper ; the English Minister should have answered
hat despatch in the free and logical characters of Caniiiiig ;
that despatch and the answer should have been placed on
your tabl comb Led with some glowing expression of sym-
pathy with our faithful ally. That is what we expected
The Minister who missed that opportunito missed a great
occasion. If Le had placed Count Walewskrs despatch, and
an answer worthy i,f it, on this table we should have felt uo
difficulty as tc the course we ought tc take ; the Lelines and
tone between the two nations would have been maintained in
a temper such as is highly desirable, and that de pitch would
have been the key-note between the two countries. Parliament
would have then come down and have given to the French
Emperor what he wants and r:quires d- monstration in the
face of Europe to the French peop!e, misled by calum,datory
btlte:uents, whit • should hare teen an avowed and living evi-
dence of the respect and sympathy of the Parli,ment of Eng-
-1;111,l. Nothing of this kind has been done' and all that is pro-
posed now to us is to cobble to tire penal laws f Ireland, aid
to retrograde with respect to the criminal law of Eugland. I
cannot suppose that any such proposition could give satisfac-
tion to the Emperor oft o Frenc Our object ought to have
been to give him honourable s.tisfaetion. With regard to the
reflections and criticisms which have been made o a the policy
pursued by the French Emperor, those are details into whi.l
we cannot enter. When a man has been elected by millions of
that country, he is above petty criticisms. If indeed he were
a tyrant dependent upon faction and supported only by prae-
torians, those criticisms might do him injury ; but the man
wire has appealed again and again to the people, who have
ratified their decision by millions, has nothing to fear from
such criticisms as these. What the French Emperor required
was a demonstration which would have cleared him from the
misconceptions which have unfortunately been engendered in
France. I cannot con give that such a bill as has been pro-
pos d will at all tend to that most desirab o consequence ;
but so far as I am concerned I fool most fully that iu this un-
fortunate position this oppohunity has been mismanaged by
the Government so as to alarm E Jgland, aid not to please
France. (Hear, hear.) I cannot think that we should take
any course which might have the effect of prolonging miscon-

ception, becanw we disapprove of the feeble and clumsy
manner in which Government have used it. Therefore, I will
vote for leave to bring in this bill, but I do not thereby pledge
myself to support it in any of its future stoges, although
I will listen to such arguments as are offered to convince
me, as I am not convinced yet, that this is the measure
required hY threrilis. Because lam desirous of coriVincing
the French people, irritated and exasperated by the atrocity
attempted in their metropolis upon the Emperor, that there
is iu the British Parliament a. noble and generous sympathy
with them, I vote for the leave to bring iu this bill whick is
asked ; but I give that vote because I think I can do so con-
sistently with the laws of England and the privileges of the
Englishman. (Cheers.)
Mr. S. HERBERT, having adverted to the change which a
few days had wrought in this country of the Emperor of the
French, and to the causes of the irritation against his Go-
vernment, observed, that bof_re ho came to an ultimate de-
cision upon this measure ho wanted information. He wished
to know, among other things, what was the cal state of the
law; whether it wad True or not that the existing law w. 41
sufficient to reach a'iens conspiring here against ali us abroad;
whether it was the practice of the English Governme, t, when
it received information from our police, to give n ,tice to that
of Franco ; and what would be the effect of converting a mie•
demeatiour into a felony upon the powers of the police. Ho
did not refuse to entertain the measure, and ho should be
ready, after due deliberation, to express his opinion of its
:writs on the second' reacting.

Lord PALMERSTON said—Sir, I have beard in the cow so
of this discussion some arguments against the proposal of her
Rajesty's Government which I scarcely expected to have
heard in the quarter from which they came. We have been
told by
one gentleman on the other side of the house that we
should give the answer of the Barons— " Nolumus leges
Auglire mutari." We have been told by my noble friend be.
hind me, who I always imagined claimA to be a reformer of
the law, that wa ought to stand by the ancient law of the
country, and bacause thin offence of conspiracy far a long
course of time has been simply a misdemeanour we ought to
refuse to apply the grave punishment attaching to felony. I
trust the house will diEmiss from their minds arguments

founded upon such principles .1s these. We are told, on the
other hand, that there aro statements made on tho part of
the Government and people of France which are so offensive
and so contrary to truth that on that account wo ought to de-
cline to take this measure into consideration. Hon, members
have taken great offence at the assertion made on the l art of
France that this country has been a harbour for assassins and
conspirators. Sir, I am concerned to say that in point of fact
that which has recently passed pr_vents our meeting that
assertion with refutation. It is not tree that the people or
the Government of Elaglani intentionally encourage cr

bour men capable of committing this crime, but unf rtunately
it is a fact that men have plotted crime in England and from
England have issued for their perpetration. When we are told
by the right hoe. gentleman and others that we ought to
have answered that despatch of Ciunt Willewski with an in-
dignant refutation I say, unfortunately facts prevented our
making that indignant refutation. It is impossible to deny that
which the right hon. gentleman the member fir B ck'ngham-
shire state]. It is notorious to all the world that this last con-
spiracy, at all events, was hatched in England, and that the
instruments by which it was to be accomplished were fabri-
cated in this country,---net accidentally, as I heard one hon.
gentleman say,—but decidedly for a purpose previously con-
ceived ; and that the persons to execute the plan had not
as th 3 right hon. gentleman who spoke last says, passed a
considerable time beforehand in France, but had issued quite
recently from this country, for the purpose of committing the
crime of which they are guilty. That nofortunate state of
things naturally and necess trily led the G wernment of this
country to consider the state of the law, and even before we
had received any application from the Government of Franso
we deemed it our duty to turn our minds to a serious consi-
deration of the evil. If any measure can be an effectual
remely there wore but two modes of treatment. One mode
would have been to have r course to legislation which existed
at previous periods and for a limited time with regard to aliens
by which the Government had the power of expelling per ens
suspected to be dangerous to the Government and welfare of
this country, awl beyond that to have asked Parliament to
give the Government power to oxpel persons supposed to be
dangerous to the G iv:rnmeat of other countries That would,
indeed, have been a course to which Parliament and the
con ,try would not have listened for a moment. It would
have been obviously ineffectual for the purpose, inasmuch as
you could rarely have that degree of suspicion of the crime
intended which would justify you in removing the persons
accused. If we had had such a power upon the present oc-
casion it would not have enabled us to prevent the crime, be-
eaus3 uo suspicion attached to the pe sons who were the per-
petrators or the instigators of the deplorable act which has
given rise to these discussions. If it were not possible to
have recourse to a measure which would enable you to pre-
vent crimes of this kind by the previous removal of persons
suspected to have the intention of eommitting them, the only
other course was to increase the punishment which was
attached to the commission of the crime, and thus to tn.
d•iavour to increaso the motives which would deter men
from entering into thew conspiracies. Tho noble lord
behind me tells us that this bill would be ineffectual,
because the severity of punishment does not deter from
offences ; on the contrary, according to his re coning, the
relaxation of pUnishment is the motive, by which you deter
men from crime. My noble friend's argument is a plagiarism
of the old rhyme. He thinks that punishment
" Is great because it is so small,"
and his reasoning leads to the following conclusion,
" Then 't w'd be greater if 't wore nano at all."

(Laughter.) That argument is not founded upon reeeen, nor
upon the experience of mankind. We know that too severe
punishments fail, not from the iasufficiency of the motives
which they afford to deter men from crime, but from the dif-
acuity to persuade juries t convict persons of c: inn', and
thereby suhject them to a punishment which they t ink is
beyond its deserts. That is the only reason of their failure. I
hold my noble friend to be entirely wrong in saying that by
raising the crime of conspiracy from a misdemeanour to a
feliny we shall not actd to the motives which may deter men
from mitering into such criminal project-4 as conspiracies to
envier. It is idle to say that greater severity of punishment
has not altogether put an end to crimes. If the argument
were admitted that because a punishment had not in eariably
lest an end to the commission of the crime against which it is
aimed, therefore the punishment is useless, teen, ought to e
en end of all penal laws. What pit ishment what penal law
is there which has ev r succeeded in entirely e Aiugulehine
the trim ag,aiest which it was directed 1 All en can hop
from penal legislation is to create greater deterring ruetiv
in the minds of 111311 who may be led to the co emission f
erimes, but to iinaglua that there will not be men who from
reckless passion, vain hope of impunity, or some oteer ca: use
will be led to commit any crime whatever 'a to imagine Viet
which is totally oppo- ed to the whole course if human expe-
rience. The severest punishment does not prevent the coin
mission of murder, and you might as well argue that because
murders continue in spiteof that ser oes pu ishment, we ought
to dismiss punishment altogether, and leave mankind simply
to the iufluonce and the morel teaching of those who may
endeavour to guide them in the paths of virtue. Therefor,
there is no forms whatever in the argument that to
inflict a severe penalty ou the offence of conspiracy
is not calculated to render the corn ilissien of the offence
less likely. There aro two views in which this measure may
be regarded, —first as an imp. ovement iu on own law withow
regard to any extern al coneideratiens, and next as a measure
calculated to prevent, as far s we can, the commission of a
great crime—of a crime which would be highly injurious to
the nterests of the country., and would inflict a deep stain
on its honour as character. No man can deny that there is
great advantage in assimilating the law of the differeet p r
tious of the united kingdom with regard to any particular
offence. As regards the Irish law, the right lion and lear
gentleman opposite has argued with great success on the ad
vantage of reducing the penalty which is at present attache
to this offence ef conspiracy to commit murder, and the argu-
ment is equally strong, on the other hand, that it would be a
,great advant,age in England to raise the offence from a simple
misdemeanour to a felony. In spite of the maxim of the
Barons, n spite of the new-born attachment of my no le
friend ueldual me for our ancient laws, the bill whi :h we pro-
pose to you, regarded on its own merits, is a great improve
ment ou the present law. It has been said, if this is merely
a reform in the law why did you not make it part of th Con-
solidation Bills which are about to be laid before Parliament ?
But my hon. friend the Solicitor-General has we 1 explained
that this is a change, and not a consolidation of the I.tw, and
that therefore it would not pr early have a place iu those
bills. The real ground upon w Lich this measure rests is not
that it is an improvemen in the law of the country, but that
it is a measure calculated to prevent the recurrence of a great
crime, the consequences of which would be injurious to the
best interests of the country, as well as derogatory to its
honour. Is it to be wJndered at that foreign nations should
look with irritation and with feelings of mistrust on this
country if they think that it harbours men who are here for
the purpose of plotting most diabolical o .trages to be com-
mitted in ttieir own ountry ? I should be sorry if anything
were proposed or adopted in this country which would inter-
fere in the slightest degree, with that principle by which
the shores of England are open to political refugees of
every country. Whatever they may know, and went-
' e.er opinions they may hold with res ect to the Govern
cent of their country, they ought to be allowed to come here
a el remain here, under the security of our taws, so long as
they continue to behave decently and do not commit an,
offence against the laws of this country or against the laws
o. God and mau. But it net er can be the w,sii of the Eug-
lab people that, under the pretence of cejoy.ng security
ag dust oppression, men should ba allowe.l to be Lere plotting
offences of the deepest dye, and instigating others to commit
crimes in,olving other countries in scenes of bloodshed by
the assassination of those who may be at the head of the Go-
vernment. And who are the persons against whom this bill
has been. levelled? It has Leon said by the hoe. member for
Pontefract that this bill will not sway the minds of those men
ay; o, with mistaken views of patriotism and careless of their
• ves, risk their existence for the accomplishment of such
dreadful designs. These are the criminals who are the actois
iu these assassinations, who pay the forfeit of their lives whe-
ther they succeed or fail. But the objects of this bill are
-the cowards .who stand behind like the person alluded to by
my noble friend in the case of the assassination of Count
Rossi, who urged on those who w re to commit the crime,
but himself remained behind. (Hear.) Those al c the met'
against whom this bill is levelled, and with regard to them
I have yet to learn that this bill will not furnish motives
to deter them from the commission of such offences. It
is (pelt° true that when you have awarded the punish-
ment it remains in each case to obtain the evidence by
which the commission of the offence is to be proved.
( Hear, hear.) That, undoubtedly, is a difficulty iu all
these cases, tut it is neither greater nor less is
the case of a ii isdemeanour titan in that of a felony. The
advantage of the measure which we propose is that if you
get that evidence, if you are enabled at any future time to
convict any individuals of the crime of conspiracy -to com-
mit murder, or of instigating others to commit it, there
e ill be it severe punishment inflicted en them, which no
man can contemplate without dread and apprehension.
'those who have spoken in this debate have drawn the at-
tention of the house to the great and important question of
,our relations with our neighbours in France. Sir, it is in
vain to disguise that that no doubt is, and must be, a main
element iu the consideration of the measure which is now
before the house. We have not yielded to -threat or in-
timidation. The very arguments which have been used in
the course of the debate negative that assertion. My noble
friend objected to the bill that it did not accomplish what
the French Government asked. Then, if it does not do
that there is an end of the -argument that the house is
called on to yield to the threats of a foreign country. This
bill does not, undoubtedly, do that which is pointed out in
one portion of the despatch from Count Walweski—it does
not do thatwhich the French Government declares that it
does not do itself in France—it does not infringe the prin-
ciple of hospitality to foreigners of al countries who seek a
refuge from the tyranny of their own Governments. (Hear.)
But the argument of those who say that we are not to do
that which in itself is right because. forsooth, it is asked for
and expected by others, is the very argument by which every
tyrannical Government refuses to make any concessions to its
subjects. (Hear, hear,) When discontent prevails, and it is
pointed out that certain improvements iu their system would"
remove that discontent, those Governments say, ' • No ; it
would be undignified—it would be unworthy of our position—
to make concessions when demands aro made ; let us wait
until nobody wants anything, and then we may, perhaps, in
our generosity and discretion do it." (Hear, hear.) Such is
the argument that is used now. We are told that it may
be right' that we should take some preettutionss -se far as
thy are consistent with our constitution, to preient the
commission of diabolical crimes abroad which are hatched in
this country ; but we are asked to do it now by a foreign
Government, and therefore we will not do that which in itself
it would be perfectly rik ht to do on another occasion That,
sir, is not au argument which can be listened to seriously—we
have interests of too much magnitude at st ike to allow us to
listen to reasoning of that kind. We have our own honour
and character in the first place to maintain, and I say that
it would be disgraceful to the English nation if, knoWing
that these crimes are the result of conspiracies hatched
here, we were to refuse to stamp them with the mark of
our condemnation by a new law which would be applicable
to the case. (Hear, hear.) As far, then, as regards our
own honour and character, I think that the country is
'bound to take some stop to show to the wor:d —not by
speeches or by flaming and magnificent despatches, such
as the right hon. member for Bucks would have had us
writes but by some certain action—the detestation which
Parliament and the country entertain of crimes of this kind,
and their desire to do that which is consistent with the law
and constitution of the r alm for the purpose of preventing
their repetition. I certainly do latnent—as many others
who have spoken lamented—that expressions havoiebeeo used
in the course of this debate, in regard to the Emperor of the
French, which I think even those who used them must upon
reflection regret, (Hear, hear ) We have only to look upon
the Emperor of the French in that character in which he has
been So eloquently described by the right hon. member for
Buckinghamshire, as a steady and faithful ally of this country
----as a Sovereign who, placed at the head of a great nation by
the wilt of that nation, hits, as far as the interests of his
country are concerned, at ;east ahis to say, that it is in
a state of as great internal material prosperity as was
ever known in France before—we have only to look at
him, I say, iu that character, to make us regret that tilts t
expressions have been used, (Hear, hear) We have no
right to inquire into the system of administration which
the people of France are willing to submit to ; we look upon
the Emperor of the French as the organ of a great and
friendly nation; we have been allied to France of la:o years
iu war end in peace, and we have found the Emperor steady
and faithful, constant and true. (Hoar.) We have found
him consulting, in the first instance, the honour and inte-
rests and dignity of his owe country, at the same time that
ho made a due regard to those ends coincident with fidelity
to his alliance with England, and showed how deeply lie was
persuaded of the groat truth, that it was for the important
benefit of both countri s that that alliance should continue,
since it not only conferred immense benefits on the two
nations, but afforded toe be:-.4t, security for the Maintenance

of the general peace of Europe and the world. (Hear.
hear.) If, then, we have an ally so true, so f Mani, so
powerful to aid us, and so capable of rendering the :Owlets
between the two countries beneficial to both and to the
world at large, let us not lightly do that whick might
be considered offensive to that sovereign and to the nation
which he rules ; and if we aro able by any legislation of ours,
without departing from the spirit of our constitution, and
without introducing any new principle into our laws, to add
the slightest security to the valuable life of that great and
illustrious sovereign, W 6) should, indeed, incur a heavy respon-
sibility if, having those moans in our power, we were lightly
• o reject them. We should indeed, be open to censure if,
having it in our power to diminish the dangers to which that
great and illustrious man has lately been exposed, we were,
upon any paltry feeling of offended dignity, or of irritation
at the expressions of three or four colonels of French regi-
ments, to act the childish pert of refusing an important mea-
sure on aercrends so insignificant and so trumpery. (Cheers.)
I sliontlhere explain, perhaps, what appears to have been
very lunch lost sight of, that it i t almost invariably the
habit of the Freed' ar.,,y, and even of small detach-
ments of the army, to send in addresses upon occa-
sions of this kind ; and, as a matter of. c urse, those ad-
dresses go into the Moniteur Hon. me berg seem to
imagine that those ad tresses are selected by the bead of the
Government, and that they a e inser ed in the .Lieoniteur by
special order; but anybody who is acquainted with the course
of business knows that it wou d be quite inconsistent with the
numerous avocati ms of the Emperor that he should read
through 200 or 300 ct those addresses in order to select those
which he might wish to publish, and to repress the others.
There is, therefore, no reason for saying that because those
addresses were inserted in the Moniteur they were adopted
by the Government of France. (Hear.) I hope the house will
not, either by refusing us leave to bring in the bill, or by a
niotini for delay— which would be tantamount to the same_
thing--create the impression that there is in the country or in
this house any indifference to the abominable crime to which
this bill relates, or to that important abiance which existe
between the Governments and nations of Eneand and France.
I trust, on the contrary, that the house, by giving us leave
to bring in the bill, tutd by carrying it through its various
stages, will afford a manifest proof that we do feel the utmost
detestation for that base system of conspiracies to which the
Bill refers, and that we are willing to do all that it is possible
to do, consiete 'fly with he principles of cur constitution, to
prevent the concoction of those crimes in England, And to
add at least some security to the Emperor of the French by
rendering it more difficult ior such atrocities in future to be
planned in England, and executed by persons assembling ea
these stores, which ought only to be the shelter of the
v'rtuous, the honourable, the patriotic, and tko beam
(Cheers.)
Mr. COX, amid loud cric s o' " Divide," mevod ' he adjourn-
ment of the debate.

Lord PALMERSTON—I should really hope that after two
nights' deb to the house is at least prepared to come to a
decision upon the preliminary question as to the introduction
of the bill. (GenerA cheering ) If my„hon friend wishes to
discuss the principle of the bill he will have ample oppok
tnuity when it is introduced. (Laughter.) At all ov..ntt, I
think it may uty to di ide against a further 'adjournment.
Mr. MYLD hoped that his h in, friend would not press, his
motion for an adjoarnment, arid to k • that'opportunity. of
..tating that although be intended to vote against the intro-
lucti n of the Bill he wa . not indifferent to the value of our
alliance wit•, France or the atrocity of the a tempt to destroy
the life of the Emperor. He prot sled against the interpre-
tation which the noble lord a tempted to put on.the conduct
of those who were opposed to the Bill. (Cries of " Divide.")
L ird . RUSSELL hoped that the division would take
pl:ce that night, and suggested to t e hon. d learn( d gent's-
#nan (Mr. Kinglake) who had i, oved the amendment, the
tesiralifeness of his withdrawal of it in order that the ques-
tion might be simplified, and the division taken on the ques-
tion that leave be given to introdu e the bill. (Cliecrs.)
Mr. COX would withdraw his motion for adjournment.
(Laught-r.)

Mr. KINGLAKE —I understand it is the genera' desire
of th houso that the division should be to en on a direc• ne-
.;ative rather than upon the mendment which I had the
honour tv propose. (II ar ) In order that the house may
determine whether it will be light to accede to my regnest
that I shall be allowed to withdraw my amendment, I have
Duly to remind them that the object o. the amendment was to
induce the house to refrain from legislating upon this subject
u ail documents relating to the point in discussion between
the two Government should I.ve p educed. Now, it has fallen
out that the material document to which my mind was di-
rected has been read in this house in the course of the ;re•
sent debate. (Hear.) I think, tl.erefore, that, consistently
with the ♦iew which induced me to prop° a the amendment,
I may respectfully ask the house to permit me.t•• w thd: aw it.
The motion of Mr. C is for adjournment, as well as the
am.indatent of Mr Kiuglako, having be ,u withdr,.wn, the
arigiaal motion was put.
The house divided. The numbers were,—
For the bill
Against it.. 99
Majority
The Bill was then brought to and read a first time. '
LADY HAVELOCK AND SIR H. HAVELOCK'S
ANNUITY BILL.

This bill was read a second time, after some remarks by Sir
CODRINGTON and Mr. GRIPFIT .
SAVINGS-BANKS.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Excimusa, it wss
agreed that the Acts relating to sav ngs-banks and their ope'
rations should be referied to a select committoe.
FOR IMANA BRIDGE.

Mr. WILSON •btained leave to bring in a bill for abolish-
ing the tolls at present loried at the bridge over the Shannon
at POrtUMlia.

HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
On the motion of Mr. WILSON, the following gentlemen
wer • nominated to serve on the ,-;clect Committee on Ilar
i,ours of Refuge :—Mr. Wiieon, Mr, Lowe, Mr. Baring, Lord
Naas, Lord A. V Tempest, Mr. Kendall, Mr. Liddell, Sir J'•
Smith Mr. Philips, Mr. Hassar.l, Mr. A. Smith, Sir R. Fer-
uson, Mr. J. A. Gurney, Mr Traill, Mr. Duff, N 7 r. Fergus,
Mr. Dodson, Mr. Clay, Mr. J. Ewart, and Mr. Macartney.

BANK ACTS COMMITTEE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that tr.
Ball and Mr. Tite be added to this committee.
The motion was agreed to.
PROCEEDINGS IN COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the fol.
lowing resolutions, which were agreed to :--
" I That when a motion is made in committee of suPPIY
to omit or reduce any item of a vote, a question shall bs pro-
posed from the chair for omitting or reducing such item se.
cordinzly ; and members shall ape .k is awl, question oulf,
until it has been disposed of.
2. That when seven,' motions are offered they shall be
taken in the order in which the items to which hey relate
appear it, the printed estimates.
3„ That after a question has been proposgil from the choir_
for omitting or reducing any item, no motion shall be ma co'
debate allowed upon any preceding item.
" 4. That where it has been proposed to omit or retitle°
items in a vote, the question shall be afterwards put upon tho
original vote, ,r upon the reduced vote, as the case milY
without amendment."

The Conspiracy to Murder Bill W: brought in by Lord PAI:i
=mon, read a first time, and ordered to be read a WO'
tune ou Monday.

The house adjourned at a quartor to 2 o'clock.

PAIRS ON THE CONSPIRACY FOR MURDER BILL.
For. Against. Fur.
Agnew, Sir A. Bright, Mr. Wy, Mr. Rolgt." 311 T. -
Farquhar, Sir Johnstone, Mr. Gilpin,illoa g
ehobl. Locke, 31r.; l'or
1
&unto Butler Peal, General Wortley, o'l'l