The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON' FRIDAY EVENING, JaITNE 11, 1858.

have been advanced in favour of the present measure.
The noble earl who spoke second in the debate did not
object to the bill in itself, while the slight reasons stated
by the noble duke opposite, the only person who has ex-
pr• seed any decided opposition to the measure, have been
sufficiently answered by the speeches already made on
the other side of the que-Aion. I cannet admit that we
ought not to pass this bill on account of the probable
introduction next session of a large and comprehensive
measure of Parliamentary reform. Considering that
every Government which has existed during the last 20
years has virtually admitted that the representation
requires amendment, I do not think we can remain
much longer where we are ; but when we are asked to
resist small measures on the ground that a large and
comprehensive measure may be introduced, we are bound
to consider what chances there are of such a measure
being passed. That object, as it appears to me, can be
obtained in only two ways. The first ie, that the lead•
ing statesmen and politicians of the country should con-
cur in some measure of reform. Now, lam afraid that
there is little chance of such an agreement, except by the
ordinary means of Parliamentary discussion; and, though
it might be desirable to have the general concurrence of
prominent statesmen in a measure of reform, I am not
sure that the jealousy of the nation would not be excited
if political leaders were to settle, as it were out of court,
what changes should be introduced into our representa-
tive system. (Hear.) I cannot, therefore, regard that
plan as one likely to be carried into effect. The other
way in which a great measure of Parliamentary reform
may be passed is, either that a strong Government should
undertake to push it through, or that there should be a
general expression of public opinion on the subject.
Now, without meaning any disrespect to noble lords
opposite, I must say that the position which they hold
at the present moment, whatever may be the case here-
after, is not such as to enable them to carry whatever
measure they might consider sound and beneficial, or
successfully to resist in the House of Commons any pro-
poaition which they might deem injurious and unsafe. I
am bound to admit, at the same time, that some portion
of their weakness hap been communicat:4 to the other
parties in the State, and that at the present moment we
cannot calculate upon the formation of a Government
strong enough to carry by its own unaided vigour a large
and comprehensive measure of reform. Nor does it seem
to me that the public generally are much interested in
the question. There is no excitement anywhere, and I
sincerely believe that the feeling of the country is not
such as to overcome all the difficulties and obstacles
which exist to the passing of a really great measure. I
think the members of the House of Commons personally
are disposed to say—.
t 4

- better bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of.

while the constituencies, being naturally satisfied with
their present position, are not particularly anxious for
the introduction of extensive alterations into our repre-
sentative system. At the same time, I feel certain that if
we were to stand perfectly still—above all, if we were to
put ourselves in opposition to such reforms as could be
shown to be reasonable and desirable—we should
immediately have a strong and overwhelming public
opinion, not directed to a measure full of checks and
balances such as has been described to us, but capable
of being wielded in favour of a wild and dangerous
scheme. For this reason I think it would be prudent
for us, whenever bills like the present come under our
consideration, not to put them off with some vague
'lotion that a larger and more comprehensive measure
may be proposed, but to consider carefully whether they
are calculated to improve our institutions, and to per-
fect that representative system which I believe even now
is superior to what exists in many other countries, but
which, I think, requires considerable change and. modi-
fication to meet the progressive increase in wealth and
enlightenment of different classes of the community.
While giving my vote in favour of the present bill, I
shall equally deem it my duty to support other measures
that may come before us, provided they seem likely to
promote the public good. (Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL had always thought that the pro-
perty qualification was inexpedient, and therefore be
should vote for the present bill. Let Parliament look
to the qualification of the electors, and then the elected
would he found to be fitting representatives of the coun
try. No inconvenience bad arisen in Scotland from the
want of a property qualification, and the Scotch mem-
bers had nothing to fear from a comparison, in point of
station and respectability, with their English or Irish
brethren. Ile wouli support this bill, and he hoped it
would be the precursor of many other measures for the
improvement of the representation of the people.
(Haar, hear )
The bill was then read a second time.
SALE OF POISONS BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill, and the
clauses were agreed to with some verbal amendments•.

MUNICIPAL FRANCHISE BILL.

Lord ABINGER moved the second reading of this
bill, which ho said was intended to remedy an anomaly
in the existing law, whereby occupiers of houses valued
at 61. per year possessed the right of vot'..o, at municipal
elections, while occupiers of houses valued between 61.
and 201. were unable to do so.
After a few observations from the Etrl of DONOUGH-
MORN, the bill was read a second time.
COMPENSATION IN THE CASE OF THE

electors. He thought, therefore, on that ground alone,
there was reason for increasing the number of the
county electors. He must entreat the House not to
reject the bill, but to make this small concession to the
people of England. He hoped the members of the late
government would not go back from the principles they
had once before expre-sed, that they would make this
concession now, as lee had made a concession to them
by adopting the very words in which they had chosen
to prove their principle. He hoped also that her
Majesty's present government would not refuse this
favour to the people of England, because, however
reasonable the concession might be as coming from the
opposition, it would carry more weight and would be
more gracious if it came from those who were in power.
He hoped, above all, that they would not promise to
deal with the question in some future measure of reform,
for there was a fatality attending all those parliamentary
promir es—not one of them was ever fulfilled. He hoped
the right hon. gentleman would not press his opposition
to a divition, for if he did he would find that the ma-
jority of the house was against him, and the majority
of that house would express the feelings of the electors,
and the feelings of the majority of the people of England.
He moved the second reading of the bill.
Mr. DIJCANE said the house was called on to dis-
pose of one of the most important questions which had
been submitted to them this session. The question was,
in what manner and at what time the house was prepared
to deal with the question of Parliamentary Reform ?
He did not wish to convey the impression that he was
opposed to any reform, or that he objected to extend
the franchise in the counties. Ore the contrary, he felt
that the day was not far distant when they must
consider the question of reform, and, moreover,
that no member could hope to retain his seat who
was not prepared to enter into that question meet see-
sion, but he was opposed to any piecemeal and idle legis•
lation. The existing system, with all its anomalies, was
so nicely balanced that it was impossible to deal with
any one anomaly singly without bringing others into
greater relief. The bill would have the effect of heaping
Pelion on Ossa. It would lay a mountain of anomaly on
what was as yet but a molehill. The great existing
anomaly was that the towns, not content with being re•
presented themselves, were exercising an overpowr ring
influence over the representation of the counties. Thus,
Brighton exercised an overpowering influence in Sussex ;
Northampton in Northamptonshire, &c: He hoped they
would wait till a time when a moderate and judicious
remedy could be applied to existing anomalies. The
effect of the bill would be to abolish the county repre-
sentation, and bring into form a vast system of universal
borough representation. Two lessons might be drawn
from the last Reform Bill ; no system could fairly repre.
sent the people that was not based on a recognition of
various conflicting interests with a regard to their fair
representation. Any system based on uniformity would,
in effect, be nothing less than placing the controlling
potVer in the hands of the class next above the lowest
represented, and the more they extended the franchise
the more won'," that be the case It would be to the
tastes, opinions, and prejudices of the 101. householders
that they would have to defer. He quoted hone Mr.
Burke a passage to the effect that whatever views were
held by the distinguished few, it was the great mass who
bad the authority, and those who lead must conform to
the views of those whom they wish to conduct. This
was said with reference to those within the represents-
tive assembly, but ho thought it applied with equal
force to the constituency. They were told they were
not to regard this as a final measure but as the first of a
series,. But, strong as were his ottjections to this as a
final measure, he had stronger objections to this or any
other measure proposed as the first of a series,
which was in effect declaring that it was imperfect,
and that they had no definite plans for the future.
(Hear, hear.) He hoped they weuld not go on with
such blindfold hand-to-mouth legislation. It was impor-
tant that when they dealt with such a question they
should come to a decision which for some years at least
would be regarded as a final one. The greatest and
wisest statesmen had held that it was dangerous to make
frequent constitutional changes. (Hear.) If the house
was to be constantly occupied with such questions he
could not conceive anything more calculated to check
the coarse of sound legislation and to shake confidence
in the efficiency and solidity cf Parliamentary govern-
ment. They should be told that Governmenatslaseandatg-
ented to deal with these measures serietint by tin
to the abolition of the property qualification. But he
contended reasons existed why the question of property
qualification should be regarded as different from other
pilots which come under their consideration on the Re-
f irate Bid. Already the qualification did not appiy to a
portion of the kingdom ; and as to the other portion, it
was shown by long experience that it was rendered nu
gatory by evasion and equivocationi(Hneeatn.h)ey had theThecases
were not analogous. Ia
experience to guide them, which was not the case in the
other instance. Lord J. Russell bad argued that hon.
members ought not to oppose the measure, as the larger
the number of electors in a constituency the more weight
it gave to a meatier. He, did not say that the numerical
constituency did not add to the sense of responsibility,
but that the weight of an hon. member depended on
something else than his own qualifications and abilities.
Many men who bad attained the highest emience,
though they bad at some time or other belonged to large
constituencies, had not sought, but been sought by the
constituencies, and when they took office bad returned
to the comparative obscurity of small constituencies.
This bad been the case with Mr. Canning and the late
Sir Robert Peel. The late head of her Majesty's Go-
vernment had long been unmolested in the peaceful
sha !es of Tiverton. (A laugh.) There was an ex-
ception in the cato of the noble lord himself who
represented the important constituency of London.
But he would refer to the authority of Lord Grey,
who said it was so difficult for Minister, who
represented a large constituency to avoid being influ-
enced by local interests, that it was very desirable that a
Minister should not represent a large constituency, and
be (Lord Grey) looked upon it as a great disadvantage
to the noble lord to have so long represented the city of
London. (Hear, and laughter.) They all knew that,
though Lord J. Russell was no longer a Minister cf the
Crown, be asseciated with his chequered visions of the
past some brighter visions of the future—(hear, and
laughter)—and he would recornm nd him to pause be-
fore he advocated the principle a representing largo
constituencies, and try whether he could not effect a
negotiation with the hon. baronet who represented
Tavietock. (Hear, and laughter.) He would then be
more ready to avail himself of some of the good things
which the fates, wino presided over the rise and fall of
Min:stere, might yet have in store for him. (Hear, and
laughter.) In opposing this measure be was fortified by
members of no mean authority in the house, advocating
alinest every shade of Liberal opinion. Lord J. Russell
had given it Lie most determined opposition, though
now ho supported it. fie (Yin DileaDe) could not say
why Lord Palaierstom who, if not by great deeds, at
least by great intentions, was on eminent Liberal, had
opposed it, though what his present intentions might be
involved a considerable amount of speculation. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) The right hon. member for Wilts
held that a henover they dealt with this question it was
of the utmost importance that they should recognise a
diversity of interests as between the counties and the
boroughs, and tneer clear of extending the franchise on
the basis of uniformity. Ho referred to the Times news-
paper to show that the gentlemen wbose ultimatum was
the manifesto of November last, were not quite unani-
mous; for Mr. Ayrton objected to the proposition ex•
tending the 101. franchise to the counties, which he said
Would swamp the legitimate influence of the knights of
the shire, and array town against country in a way to
which he was adverse. (Hear, hear.) At a time
anterior to the In ion of party and confusion of prin-
ciple which had lately arisen—(hear, bear)—he had
never anticipated that almost on the first occa ion of
addressinfr, the house, he should be able to convince them
that perfect unanimity existed on this point between the
noble lord the member for Tiverton and the hoe. mem-
ber for the Tower Hamlets ; least dad that he, a mem-
ber, should cordially agree with both. But when they
did agree, their agreement was wonderful. (Laughter.)
He further quottel from the same number of the Times a
piece of advice which ho thowtht very forcible and sere
sible, advising the postponement of the reform bill till
next session. It, would be tie first of a series of conc-,s-
alone as mischievous in practice as they were errone-
ous in theory, and wed.] tend to check the progress, of
sound legislation. He reminded Lord Palmerston in
1857, when there was a mutiny in his own ranks, the
Conservative opposition came to his rescue and enabled
him to :esist this measure, and he appealed to the noble
lord to take a similar course now that he was in opposi-
tion ; and to show that he was not oblivious of the aid
they had given him—shaven!: that he was not oblivious
of the principles he bad then tupeerted. Whatever de-
sire they might have fora remedy of anomalies however
plausible might be these abstract and isolated theories,
however well adapted to woo and win applause on the
o f hustings,atatesmtahnelyi e would
abilityu
nd discretionrequiresomething i
u any m
likethe e
usexerciseureo
f
this kind b-forethey
question.
Mr. it. He concluded by
moving the previous
Mr. MILES congratulated his hon. friend on the
ability with which he bad moved it. He was a great ac-
quisition to this house. (Hear.) He was glad that his
hon. friend hatl altered the question from the form in
which he had originally put it, that the bill should be
read a third time that day six months, which would in
measure exclude its consideration when the general
question carne before them. Considering the late period
of the seesion, it was impossible that the hill, if passed,
should come into operation before 1360. He thought it
would be better to wait till next session, when a reform
bill, not on isolated points, but on general principles would
have to be consitleral, which would be the proper time
to consider the enfranchisement of 101. householders. He
objected to take three questions piecemeal. The noble
lord the reerabtr fer London had changed his opii ion on
this subject since he introduced his firrt reform bill, and
be (Mr. Miles,) regretted the noble lord had changed his
opinion and giveu tie support to the bid. In 1854, when
the neble lord proposed to give a county 101. frarcblie,
ho also propestd to drop the bereugh franchise to Si.
The hon. gentleman referred to the cliff:Tent franchises
the noble lord proposed in his measure of 1854. It was
namotpe
ulonernioliureliit fer all
desirable
pur
tpoogsiets,e,
abuitetthe uounuothylefrlaotr,deldis:de
ithent other altrietions accompanying it.
member K
for ing's
vicerettoi
no no
rw,
the
eo pp
principle
l
Mr. L. s ntotfhied
enuothiLlte:!,o;rtril year,uthae
iificetion in boroughs and count ice, which he considered
should ,land oa different principies—(hear)—and he
(tlr. Mi et) hoped the noble lord the member for 'Clover-
ton would also en this occasion vote against the second
noble lord and his friends to assist the Conservativesthis
thereadingn ob ce
f l the
L
r
year. Let thtin have fair play on that occasion, and as
ieaostitnygeatrhuthebiel sueurdv a thi ve eas sak sesdi s
the
the Ministerial party was said to be in a minority, it was
the duty of those he had referred to tomaesbsseli,rsetetit)arhlelsyrutr.::fuiltfejer,
tehalelehdonal.soruf;ura,teurepfoorrt oKnidtheie.,rhu3oinutlnere,
what he (Mr. !Idea) had seen in the Times that day—

(laughter)—the hon.' member for Devonport, and last,
the hon. baronet who rendered such essential service to
the late Government, the boo, member for Welle. (Hear.)
There was now no agitation for a change; and he believed
the hon. member for Surrey had not presented a petition
in favour of his measure. They had constantly called
on various Governments for reform in vain, but the
noble lord at the head of her Majesty's Government
had announced that he intended to bring in a Re-
form Bill. (" No, no.") He was sorry, he admitted,
that the Home Secretary had stated her Majesty's Go-
vernment would consider the question of reform, but he
(Mr. Miles) considered the words used by the noble lord
in another 'house warranted him in saying her Majesty's
Government intended to introduce a Reform Bill next
session of such a character as to please all moderate and
impartial men. He (Mr. Miles) therefore considered the
house ought not to pass this measure, which sanctioned
bit by bit legislation, but wait and consider a bold and
comprehensive measure, that must be introduced at no
long period. It was necessary to do away with many
anomalies that at present existed in the representation,
and open the franchise to many classes who did not now
enjoy it. He cordially seconded the amendment.
(Hear, and divide.)
The SPEAKER then proceeded to put the question.
After the ayes had declared their opinion,
Viscount PALMERSTON—I waited till the very
last moment, and did not rise until you were about to
pronounce that word which would have stopped further
discussion. I waited till the last moment, in order to
hear what course Government was going to take on this
motion. As the house was about to divide in ignorance
of the course Government meant to pursue, I feel bound
to answer the touching, eloquent, and moving appeals
made to myself and others. We have often had occasion
this session to feel compassion for the pitiable condition
in which the Government have been placed. (Opposition
cries of "oh.") They came into power, and avowedly in a
minority, and compelled to depend for support on the
sufferance of the majority of the house. (Hear, hear.)
But never have I seen such signals of distress as were held
out to-night—not indeed by Government—but by those
who may be considered to express their sentiments.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member who moved the amend-
ment in a speech to the ability of which I willingly bear
testimony—a speech which gives great promise of
future performance—made an appeal to us ; and the
hon. member who followed him:also appealed to us:in the
most moving manner for support. (Hear, hear.)
That appeal was made to us on the ground that the
Conservatives had come to our assistance on a former
occasion on this question. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman
said that in February,' 1857, there was mutiny and
insurrection in the ranks of the supporters of the
Government, and that the Conservatives came to the re-
scue and offered them relief. No doubt that was a very
charitable act. (Hear, hear.) But there was a February,
1858, as well as a February, 1857. (A laugh.) In Feb.,
1858, there was mutiny in the Government ranks. What
did the Con,ervativea do at that period ? Did they come
to our rescue ? No. They joined the ranks of the insur-
gents and overthrew the constituted authorities. As far
as any personal claim is concerned, therefore, I think
February, 1858, may be set off against February, 1857.
The present condition of the Government, and the lan-
guage held to-night, reminds me of the miserable state
of the former inhabitants of our island when deserted by
the Romans. They said that the barbarians—of course
all who sit on the Treasury bench are barbarians—(a
laugb)—would drive us int) the sea, that is into the
troubled waters below the gangway—(a laugh)—and the
sea erives us Lack again to the barbarians. (Rear.) I
hold myself entirely free to vote on this occasion as I
Veiuk right, without being bound by any obligations of
gratitude to hon. gentlemen opposite. The bill brought
in last year was totally different in title and intention
from that now introduced. The bill of last year was to
assimilate the county and borough franchise. The present
bill is to improve and extend the franchise cf counties,
but does not assimilate the two. (Oh, oh.) Last year we
had announced our intention to propose, during the pre-
sent session, a bill of parliamentary reform, but as we
intended to embrace in that bill an arrangement with
regard to the county franchise, we were of opinion that
the house ought to have trusted us so far al to postpone
any decision on the county franchise till we had pro-
duced our measure. The present Government are not
pledged to produce any measure of parliamentary reform.
They are pledged to consider the question. Considera-
tion and decision are duff rent things, Consideration
may -last a longtime, and decision may be tardily granted.
The present bill is not the bill of last year. (OS.) It may
be said that though the title is different, the bill does
not imply the assimilation cf the county and borough
franchise, yet the manner in which the blanks may be
filled up would accomplish that object. It is undoubtedly
the real state of the case. But those who adhere to the
opinion I expressed, that it would not be desirable to as-
similate the two franchises, by reducing the city fran-
chise to 101., may, nevertheless, with perfect consistency
vote for the second reading of the bill, with the intention
of proposing in committee an alteration of the franchise
intended to be established for the counties'. Any one,
therefore, who contemplates the reduction of the present
county franchise may consistently vote for the second
reading of the bill, reserving to himself in committee to
chose the particular franchise he would prefer. (Hear.)
And, therefore, as I am not one of those who think that
the county franchise ought to be lowered—as I am, on
the contrary, one of those who believe it would be an ad-
vantage to reduce the present county franchise, and to
extend to a certain degree the. number of the county
constituents, I am prepared to assent to the second read-
ing of this bill, with the reservation I have mentioned in
respect to the limits which the proposed change is to as-
sume. (Hear.) I must add, however, that I cannot agree
with many of the arguments employed in favour of the
measure. We are told that one reason why we should
support the bill is that it would remove certain anomalies
from our representative system. Eut I defy you by any
legis'ation to get rid of anomalies in that system. Even
if you were to divide the country into parallelograms, and
to award au equal number of rapresentatfvea to each dis-
trict, it would still vs impossible for you to put an end to
these anomalies. An anomaly means, in the opinion of
the man who uses the word, something at variance with
a rule which he believes ought to be adopted. One man
may think that rule ought to be a numerical equality be-
tween the different constituencies, and he would get rid
of what he regarded as anomalies by the eoforeernent of
his favourite measure. But another man may believe that
the proper course to be pursued would be to secure a re-
presenta•ion of the diffeteet interests and classes in the
community, and he would tell you that you would only
add to tho existing anomalies by dividing the country
into equal electoral districts. I can, therefore, attach no
value upon this occasion to the argument founded on the
expediencyof getting rid of anomalies. But we are Cid that
it is better to make this change no w, because we eha 1
otherwise be called upon to make it hereafter, under
less favourable circumstances, under the influence of
some strong popular feeling ; and we aro reminded of
what took place when the lieform Bill was passed in
the year 1830. That argument, too, I think, is mis-
placed. When the bill cf 1832 was passed there existed
an electoral system which must be admitted to have been
in the highest degree objectionable. There were imagi-
nary boroughs returning members to this house, while
large masses of the industrious and wealthy portions of
the community had no voice in the legielaion of the
country. That was a state of things which when it came
to he taken into consideration could not be maintained
by any argument. But it has since happily ceased to
exist ; and I cannot admit that the argument deduced
from the national demand for a change int our legislation
in the year 1832. can apply to the present state of our
representation. That, however, is no reason against
our looking into the existing system, and endeavouring
to improve those portions of it which are susceptible cf
improvement ; but it is a reason for our rationally and
deliberately considering this question, and refusing to
rush headlong into any particular course, because we
might hereafter be driven by some popular impulse to
adopt some meaeure of which our judgmerst would dis-
approve. I have no olij to what may be called
bit-by-bit reform. I think it might perhaps be betttr
to leave this proposal to be incorporated with some
more general scheme. Ido not think the nation at large
is at present anxious for any great and fundamental
change in our representative system. I believe the
House of Commons is much more forward upon this mat-
ter than the nation which they represent. (Hear.) I be-
lieve the country at large would be satisfied with a very
I moderate measure ; but at the same time, caked upon as
I am to decide on the proposal at present under the
coneideration of the hou-ie, I cannot affirm that the
comity franchise is one that ought not to be improved,
and I arn, therefore, ready to go into committee on this
bill, for the purpose of endeavouring to see in what man-
ner and to what extent the county franchise can be re-
duce'? consistently with the well-being of the country,
and consistently with a due regard to that balance of
interests on which our representative system has hitherto
been founded. (Rear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said—The noble lord has stated in
such plain and unanswerable laeguage every objection
that can be made to the present bill, as explained by its
mover, that I find he has left me nothing to add to his
arguments against the measure. Toe bon. gentleman the
inerob, r for Ea=t Surrey has rested his case entirely on
the expediency of a.ssitnila'ing the county and the borough
franchises, He used no other argument which could jus-
tify the adoption of his proposal. The position which he
maintained TVII3, that as a 101. franchise was good for
the boroughs, a similar franchise must be good fur the
counties. But the noble lord says that he cannot assent
to that conclusion and that he will not vote for a 101.
county franchise, although he is willing to alter the fran-
chise established in the c unties under the exiting law.
The noble lore, however, bits not told us what is the
nature ef the change of which he would be prepared to
approve. (llear) He did not give us the smallest inkling
as to the figure which he would support in committee, if
the bill should ever reach that stage. The noble lord has
complained that no member of the Government rose be-
fore himself to ad
"ress the house ; but I think he must
admit that, after two speeches had been made by lion
rnernia,rs sit i, g on this Bide, against the bill, it was nee u-
ral f r us to supp see that some of those who were called
by the noble lord himself, and not by tie, the "barba-
rians" weuld get up and ad,jress the house in eupportof the
motion of the hon. mern!ser for East Sul rey. (Hear.)
Hoe. members are well aware that it is very unusual to
see three members sitting on the same side of the house
rise ie surce,sion to maitna n the same opinion on any
qu'i'ifml• Now, with respect to the proposal itself, I must
Bay I think my hon. friend the member fur East Somer-
set ,hire v es pen feetly justified in asking what could be ject in
g,ined by attempting to legislate upon this sul
the present session. The time is gone by when such a
measure as this could have any immediate effect. The
registration for the muuties will commence before it
will be possible to pass this bill through the house, and

there can, therefore, be no reason why we should now
embark _in this discussion. The words employed in
another place by the noble earl at the head of the Go-
vernment have been quoted for the purpose of showing
what are the future intentions of the Government in re-
ference to the introduction of a reform bill. Now, I
thi..k those words are as explicit as words can be. (dear,
hear.) Let it be remembered, too, that the speaker is not
a man who is at all apt to use language and afterwards
fail to act up to it. (Hear.) Under those circumstances
I think it is not unreasonable to ask the house whether,
by adopting the course they are now invited to pursue,
they believe they would be facilitating a settlement of
the reform question, or whether they do not rather
think they would thereby be throwing an impediment in
the way of the accomplishment of such an object ? (Hear,
hear.) I entirely approve of the mode in which the pro-
posal of the second reading of the bill has been met ;
and I must also bear my testimony to the great ability
and moderation with which " the previous question"
has been moved. (Hear.) I believe it would have been
unfair to have met the motion for the second reading of
the bill by a direct negative. I believe that after the
pledge given by Government to look into the whole re-
form question, with a view to its general settlement, it
would have been unfair to have asked the house to corn-
mit'thereselves to the rejection of any particular measure.
The hon. gentleman who broughtforward the bill wished
to assimilate the county and the borough franchises ; but
no one has adduced any argument in favour of such a
scheme, and the noble lord has argued directly against
it. Every one must see that the noble lord is availing
himself of a kind of special plea when he supports the
second leading of the bill, while he expressed his disap-
proval of a 10/, county franchise. I will eels hoc. mem-
bers opposite who sit below the gangway, whether they
do not understand this to be a measure for a 101. county
franchise, and nothing else? (Hear.) I must add that
I think the hon. gentleman who has introduced the bill
ought to have given us some intimation of its. probable
effect on that balance of power between different inte-
rests and classes which is seoured by our present repre-
sentative system ; but the hon. member has left that
I very important matter wholly unnoticed. I very much
doubt whether the measure would remove the anomalies
of the present system. I agree with the noble lord that
you must have anomalies under any arrangement it
would be possible to adopt ; and all that you can do is
to obtain a sort of balance of those anomalies, so that
all the interests of the country may on the whole be
fairly represented. I do not believe you would, by
adopting this measure, close all discussion as to the
amount at which the qualification for the county fran-
chise should stand, and I do not think it would now be
just or wise to attempt. to prejudge that matter, and
thus throw an impediment in the way of the Govern-
ment which would interfere with their taking the whole
reform question into their consideration, with the view
of honestly endeavouring to effect its settlement. I
must repeat that I believe the noble lord has completely
refuted the -proposal for an assimilation of the county
and the borough franchises ; and I have now only to
state, in conclusion, that I shall cordially give my sup-
port to the mover of the previous question. (Hear.)
The house then divided on the motion that "the
qnestion be put," and the numbers were—
Ayes
Noes.

. 226
. 168

Majority —5B
The announcement of the numbers was received with
some cheering fro;n the Opposition side of the house.
The question that the bill be read a second time-was
then put and carried without any discussion, and the
committee on the measure was fixed for Tuesday next.
UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD-ADVOCATE moved the second reading of
this bill.
Mr. BLACK opposed the motion, which he said ho did
with great reluctance, because, in his opinion, instead of
improving the condition of the Scottish universities, it
would have a decidedly opposite effect. It appeared that
the bill was altogether untnendable, and could not be sa-
tisfactorily dealt with in committee. It wanted, in fact,
like a very old gun, a new stock, a new lock, and a new
barrel. (A laugh.) The bill was like the concluding part
of a charity sermon—a mere demand for money, and the
whole of its provisions were directed to the means of ob-
taining a comfortable independence for the professors of
the universities. He moved that the bill be read a second
time this day six months.
The amendment having been seconded.
Mr. C. BRUCE defended the bill, observing that the
objections of Mr. Blaekrelated to matters for consideration
in the committee.
Colonel SYKES strongly condemned the measure, cen-
suring the violence of the changes it would introduce and
its invasion of vested interests.
Mr. STE WART could not see that the bill would in
any way affect the efficiency of the universities of the
north of Scotland. He ventured confidently to predict that
if this bill passed there would be an interest created round
these universities which did not at present exist.
Sir W. DUNBAR said it was with regret that he found
the bill opposed by the members for Edinburgh and Aber-
deen, whose opinions he admitted were entitled to consi-
deration, but it would require better arguments than
those he had heard adduced, as they were to the details,
rather than to the principle of the bill to change his
opinion. Whether the Lord Advocate succeeded or failed
in passing the bill, he had by drawing attention to the
matter entitled himself to the gratitude of every well-
wisher of the universities.
Mr. DUNLOP was glad that the Lord Advocate had
broughti forward a measure for the improvement of the
universities, and hoped the learned gentleman would give
such explanations as would enable him to support the mea-
sure. The objections were such as aught to be ravauced
at another stage. He should be glad to see a state of
things in which, instead of town and gown being opposed,
they should work together in harmony and amity.
Mr .STIRLING expressed a hope that the bill would
come before the committee with such a paper of amend-
mentments as would render it wholly unobjectionable.
Mr. CO WAN said the objections were so strong that he
would advise the postponement of the further progress of
the bill.
Mr. WARREN congratulated the Government on the
introduction of a measure which met with so much sub-
stantial support ; for he believed that whatever objections
were urged against the bill were essentially objections
against matters of detail which could be readily cleared
away in committee.
Lord DUNCAN intended to give his most cordial sup-
port to the bill, and he concurred in thinking that all the
objections urged against it ought to have been withheld
until the bill got into committee.
Mr. DUFF would vote with great pleasure for the
second reading of the bill, but did not intend to support
its provisions having reference to the College of Aberdeen.
Mr. GILPIN did not think the provisions of the bill
were as completely understood as they ought to be, and
therefore it would be, perhaps, better if the bill bo with-
drawn for the present session.
Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., approving of the bill generally,
would nevertheless be not satisfied with it unless the
learned Lord Advocate favoured them in committee with
the names of the commissioners to be appointed under the
bill, inasmuch as he considered everything depended upon
who those commissioners were. At the same time ho
must congratulate the learned Lord Advocate on having
intro iuced a measure which met with so little opposition.
The LORD ADVOCATE must express his thsnks for
the amount of support which the bill hurl received. The
bill had been alone opposed by the hon. members for Edin.
buigh and Aberdeen, bet then their objections were en
tirely of a local character. The bill was founded almost
entirely upon the report of the commission of 1830, !al-
though there might be certain variances in it with regard
to the details of that report. With respect to the objec-
tion urged against the large powers concededtathe commis-
sioners, he must rewind the house that he had placed on
the paper a notice of a clause, requiring for every rule and
ordinance issued by the commissioners the approval of her
Msjesty in council. (Hear, hear.) The peers of Scotland
Isere in favour of the measure, and if it required further
consideration it should be in committee, whore he should
be happy to meet any hon. member's objections to the
measure. With regard to the feeling in Aberdeen rela-
tive to the extinction of Marischal College, there bail been
pAitions presented from that plhce, four being in favour
of the bill generally, and especially the fusion of the two
universities.

Colonel SYKES- -How many against them ?
The LORD ADTOG'ATE said he had not counted them,
but the hon. member could easily do so. The house would
legislate on this subject not as borough schools, but as
national institutions for the promotion of learning through.
out the country. It was not to be expected that the two
institutions would be maintained in one place at the public
expense—especially two crippled and import', ct institu-
tions— instead of one. The hon. member for Greenock ap.
peered to think that the 0101 ical element would too much
prevail, but he (the Lord Advocate) was of a different opi-
nion. It was true that most of the graduates of some of
the Universities had entered and did enter for the Presby-
terian Church, but that would cure itself in the beneficial
working of the act after they hail agreed to his amend
merits in committee. The mode ofchoesingdirectors object( d
to by the hen, member there was some difficulty attending
it, and he would adopt the suggestion of the hon. member
in respect to it. Experience had shown that the Chancel-
lors would wish a continuance of the present mode of elec-
tion, and the influence complained of might easily be re-
medied. With regard to the suggestion of Mr. Andrews,
relative to the promulgation of the names of the committee,
he felt it to be a task of the greatest possible difficulty, and
that had prevented his laying the names before the house ;
but he anticipated when he did so the names would inspire
confidence._ His sole object in the promotion of the bill
had been the prosperity of the Scottish universities, and
he should be happy to receive suggestions from all quarters
on the subject. He did not anticipate introducing a mea-
sure that would at first give general satisfaction.
Lord ELCHO said he would reserve fur the committee
his observations on the union of the two universities of
Al;erdeen. He congratulated the Lord Advocate on the
manner in which the measure had been received in that
house. (Hear, hear, and divide.)
Mr. BAXTER said that after the manner in which the
Lord Advocate had received the suggestion he (Ur. Baxter)
hoped the amendment would be withdrawn.
Mr. BLACK intimated his willingness to withdraw the
amendment.

The amendment was negatived without a division.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES BILL.

The House having gone into committee upon this bill,
Upon clause 2
Mr. HENLEY wished to know what notice would be
given to depositors in banks which were converted from
unlimited to limited liability of the change that occurred
in their relations towards such banks ?
Mr. lIENDLAM said that under the former Act it was
provided that no change could affect existing contracts.
After a change to limited liability a bank must advertise
the circumstance upon all its forms.
Mr. HENLEY drew the attention of the hon. and
learned gentleman to the cases of running accounts which
were not in the nature of contracts.
Mr. HEADLAM replied that it was competent for par-
ties to withdraw their money if they pleased, as they
would have sufficient notice of the change.
Mr. HENLEY suggested whether thre should not be
some special notice. (Hear.)
Mr. HEADLAM wcwld have no objeetion to adopt any
suggestion that might be made upon the point.
The clause was then agreed to.
•
Upon clause 3,
Mr. Wilson proposed to apply the bill to existing com-
panies by adding, after the word "business," the words,
all existing companies at the time carrying on business on
unlimited liability before availing themselves of the pro-
visions of the Act."
Mr. HEADLAIII did not object, and
The amendment was agrecd to.
Mr. FINLAY moved the insertion after the word
"share," in the eighth line of the clause, of the words