The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-17 00:00:00

ARMSTRONG GUNS.

Mr. H. BAIL LIE asked the Secretary of State for War
whether the War Department had paid a part of the
money, and intends to pay the whole sum charged by the
Elswick Company, for the nine breech-loading 64-pounders
recently rejected at proof, the said guns having been or-
dered two or three years since, and having become
obsolete, and whether it was not desirable to
put a mark upon all guns that fail in their
proof at Woolwich, as there has been sent to the Paris
Exhibition a 9-inch gun cast at Elswick, having a rifled
tube of wrought iron, which was rejected at the Woolwich
proof ; and whether the hundred rounds fired from that
gun under cover, after it was rejected at proof, at the
desire of the Elswick Company, was to be paid for by the
country ?
Sir J. PAKING.TON said some money had boon paid,
but the remainder would not be parted with until the guns
were pronounced as satisfactory. It was altogether an
error to say the guns had become obsolete. It was the
practice to place a mark on guns that had failed, and it
was not the fact that the gun sent to the Paris Exhibition
was not one that-had been rejected by the proof-house at
Woolwich.
THE REFORM BILL.
Mr. RENEAGE asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
if it was still his intention to alter the schedule (D) of the
Ileprosentation of tho People Bill as far as regards the
parts of Lindsay, as intimated by him earlier iu the ses-
sion in reply to a question asked by the hon. member for
North Lincolnshire ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
not his intention to alter the schedule. The boundaries
set down were merely temporary, as the boundaries would
be finally settled by a Royal commission, of which Lord
Erersley would be the head, with four other members
who wore yet to be appointed.
THE PARIS EXHIBITION.

Mr. GREGORY asked the Vico-President of the Com-
mittee of Council whether it was true that all the news-
papers and periodicals published in England had been sent
for exhibition to Paris by the Department of Science and
Art ; whether all the Blue Books printed for the use of
both Houses of Parliament had :also been sent ;
whether the plaster of Paris cast of the pulpit at Pisa has
also been sent ; what is the cost and object of these under-
takings ; and whether any of the objects in the French
Exhibition have been purchased, or are to be purchased,
and on whose responsibility; and whether by special
gran, or out of the ordinary estimate.

Lord R.' MONTAGU said it was true that one speci-
men of every newspaper had been sent to the Exhibition,
and also a few blue books, but certainly not the whole of
those already published. The expense of taking
two casts of the pulpit at Pisa had not
been much greater than that which would have
been incurred in taking one, and the reason the cast was
sent to Paris was to show what had been done by this
country for science and art. (Laughter.) They ha d been
collecting specimens of this nature for the use of schools,
and it washoped that when thatbecame known there would
be by other countries an interchange of casts which, could
not but be most beneficial as far as art was concerned.
The cost of sending the newspapers and blue-books had
been nothing, and the cost of sending the cast had not ex-
ceeded £5O. There was no intention of purchasing any
thing at present, but if such should be done it would be
out of the grant made to the Exhibition!

An Hos. MEMBER asked who had the control of that
grant ?
Lord R. MONTAGU said the administration of the
grant made for the South Kensington Museum was under
the control of the Lord President of the Council.
THE SCOTCH REFORM BILL.

Mr. D. GRIFFITH asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether it was his intention to be understood,
with respect to the Scotch Reform Bill, that in order to
provide increased representation for Scotland it was the
intention of Government to add to the present number of
the House of Commons.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said no
reduction would bo made in the nninber of members for
England and Ireland. With regard to Scotland it was
intended to make a fair representation, and the hon. mem-
ber must have confidence in the enlightened wisdom of
Parliament.

THE REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.

In reply to Mr. FOSTER,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said as two
hon. members who had notices on tho paper for to-mor-
row had courteously given way,She thought they could
proceed with the committee on the bill. He believed
it would be necessary for them to take a vote or two
for the civil servico in committee of supply, but he did not
think they would embrace any subject that would lead to
discussion.
NATIONAL DEBT BILL—DUTY ON FIRE
INSURANCES.

On the order of the day being read for the second read-
ing of the National Debt Bill,
Mr. 11. B. SHERIDAN moved th&•followfng reso-
tion :—" "'AA .a further reduction of the duty on fire
insurances, to which this house is already pledged,
would be a better mode of disposing of a portion of the
surplus of Ways and Means for the present year than the
creation of terminable annuities proposed by the present
bill."

Mr. HUBBARD seconded the amendment, and while
agreeing with the policy of paying off debt, impeached the
bill on the double ground that terminable annuities were
an unwise mode of discharging debt, and that to obtain
the means for paying these annuities by such a tax as the
Fire Insurance Duties was unjust and injurious. In sup--
port of his first proposition he compared this scheme very
unfavourably with other terminable annuities, insisting
that it was a sinking fund in disguise, and that the same
end could be more cheaply attained by the issue of Exche-
quer Bonds. lie argued strongly against the Fire In-
surance Duties, and suggested that they should be reduced
to 9d. after June, and to ld. after April next.
Mr. HANKEY supported the bill as a very good bar-
gain for the public, inasmuch as by paying £1,720,000 for
17 or 18 years we should get rid of a permanent charge of
£720,000 per annum.

Mr. LAING preferred the policy of reducing taxation
and leaving the money to fructify in the pockets of the
people to paying off debt, and denied that there was any
analogy between private and public obligations in this
matter, inasmuch as the National Debt was merely an en-
gagement to pay CO much interest a year, not to pay off
the capital sum. He showed, by reference to the Trade
returns, that under a system of applying surpluses to the
reduction of taxes our debt since the great war had consi-
derably diminished, while our means of paying it had
augmented threefold, and at the same time the comforts of
the people had been inestimably increased. We certainly
had not arrived at that millenium of taxation when there
were no objectionable taxes left, and he insisted there
were many, such as the Fire Insurance Duties, the duties
on locomotion, and the Licence Duties. For instance,
if half a million were applied to reducing the Fire
Duties to 6d., in six or seven years the revenue
would have recovered itself, while by applying it
to the reduction of debt we should in the same time
be relieved of no more than £150,000. Be condemned
the scheme as new-fangled—a sinking fund in disguise—
and based on a desire to do something sensational, after
the manner of the United States, whose recent financial
policy he gave some reasons for believing would not be
altogether so successful as was anticipated.
Mr. GLADSTONE made an animated reply to Mr.
Laing, commenting particularly on the epithets "new-
fangled" and " sensational," to which he objected very
strongly, and defended the bill as a modest attempt to
carry out what for many years had been our fixed policy,
showing, in reply to the Sinking Fund argument, that the
terminable annuity being made part of the permanent
charge of the year, vas provided for regularly in each
Budget as a matter of course. Concurring with Mr. Laing,
that there were many duties which called for reduction or
remission, lie denied that the Fire Insurance Duties had
the strongest claim, characterising the assertion that the
revenue would be replaced in six or seven years as purely
visionary, and preferred the claims of the duties on loco-
motion or the tax on corn, the operation of which he said
prevented this oountry becoming the great entrepot for all
the markets of the world, and the Licence Duties. In an
elaborate argument he defended this mode of wiping off the
£24,000,000. Book Debt, maintaining that it would not
involve any loss to the State, and insisted on the impor-
tance to the national credit of not passing over a favourble
opportunity for reducing the debt.
Mr. SCOURFIELD supported the bill, and
Mr. T. CAVE condemned the time of introducing the
bill, and its inadequate mode of dealing with the debt, and
suggested the imposition of a tax of 2td. per ton on coal;
which by the time the whole of our supply was exhausted
would have paid off the National Debt.
Mr. GORST regarded the scheme as a sham bargain
between two officers of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's
department—which would not be binding, for if there was
a deficit the terminable annuities would be reconverted
into book debt, and if there WO tl e11rp14.5 the 3411.44 A

Mr. AYRTON took the same view, and insisted that
there was no real cancelling of debt.
The bill was supported by Alderman Salomons, and Sir
F. Crossley, and opposed by Mr. Read.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
the principle of terminable annuities, which he pointed out
to the advocates of " fructification" bad contributed greatly
to'the reduction of taxation, and notably had enabled Mr.
Gladstone to carry out the French Treaty, and as this
generation had profited by the adoption of this policy by
our ancestors, so we were bound to pursue it for the bene-
fit of the next generation. In answer to the arguments
that this was not a real transaction, ho insisted that
£24,000,000 of debt would be absolutely cancelled ; the
terminable annuities could be placed on the market at
any time, and that it was not a sinking fund was shown
by the different fates which had befallen the last—Sir G.
C. Lewis's sinking fund—which perished in a year or two,
and the different terminable annuities, which had been
allowed to run their course and perform their functions.
The Dead Weight Annuity falling made it imperative on
the Government to consider whether they would pursue
the policy of terminable annuities acted on for the last
half century—which was the question theyhad now. to de-
cide—and they presented the bill, not as part of a great
scheme for reducing the national debt, but as the sequel of
a system of continuous and moderate action on the perma-
nent debt. by means of terminable annuities.

On a division the second reading was carried by a m.,jo-
rity of 162 to 38.

• Ou going into Supply on the Supplementary Army
Estimates,

Mr. WHITBREAD called attention to the system of
recruiting in the army, dwelling especially on the deceits
practised ou the soldier, and insisting that the 2d. per day
would not dispose of the stoppages grievance, and that
ld. per day would not retain the time-expired men, and
moved two resolutions declaring that at the time of enlist-
ing the whole system of stoppages shall be explained to
the recruit, and the second in favour of training schools
for the army.
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whole subject of recruiting at present.
.mal:lout, but deprecated raising a discussion on the
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The resolutions were supported by the Marquis of
Hartington, General Peel, and Captain Vivian, and after a
somewhat desultory conversation, the first resolution was
agreed to, and the second was withdrawn.
In committee, a vote of £416,750 was agreed to for in-
creasing the pay of non-commissioned officers and soldiers.