The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 17, 1868.

stood crime in this country committed by foreigners was
on the increase.

Mr. HARDY, under Home Secretary, said he would
inquire if such a record could be kept.
THE GREEN PARK.
Lord ELCHO put a question to the First Commis-
sioner of Works, relative to the intended alterations in
the Green Park, and called attention to the erection of
the Suspension-bridge in St. James'-park, and asked the
noble lord the member for Tiverton if he was gratified
with the "Catenarian Curve" he so eloquently described
when the motion for erecting a bridge over the lake
was before the house ; and if the suspension-
bridge presented that line of beauty, and was of that
light gossamer form his speech on the above occasion
led the house to believe, and if its erection met with his
approval. He considered the name of the architect and
the noble lord should be inscribed upon it. He
contended the house ought to know what works were to
be carried out before they sanctioned them. He referred
to two circles marked out in the Green park, for, he
believed, two shrubberies; but he considered shrubberies
were an abomination in the London parks, and ought
not to be sanctioned. They were anything but orna-
mental, and their removal from the parks was a great
improvement. Above all places they should not be
planted on one of the pleasantest eloping spots of grass
in the suburbs of London.
Lord J. MANNERS said the proposed shrubberies
originated with the late President of the Board of
Works, but he had no intention of carrying them
out, or of planting shrubberies without the con-
sent of the house. (Hear, hear.) With respect to
Finsbury Park he had little to do with it, but he had
communicated with the Metropolitan 'hard of Works,
who bad replied that no measures bad been taken for
forming a park. The laying out of two roads were now
occupying their attention, and until they were carried
out the consideration of the formation of Finsbury Park
must stand over.

Sir B.HALL detailed the circumstances attending the
extension of the St. James's-park-bridge. It was sup,
Foxed that such a structure was opposed to the public
will, but it was a remarkable fact that on the shortest
winter day 37,360 persons bad passed over that bridge.
When it was determined by the committee to erect a
bridge he called on the late Mr. Rendell, who was the
architect. He (Sir B. Hall) admitted that the bridge
was not such a one as should be erected in a gentleman's
park—(a laugh)—but considering the traffio over this
public bridge it was necessary to make it substantial.
(Hear, and a laugh.) He vindicated the formation of the
shrubberies, so far as he had anything to do with them
Mr. ELLICE, sen., deprecated the false taste which
made our public parks so many landscape gardens.
Sir H. VERNEY thought that as the park was useful
to the whole of London generally, care should be taken
to make it as clear as possible.

have allowed the manager to act without control. The
committee acquitted these gentlemen of any moral blame,
and considered that their errors were errors of judgment,
and not of intention. While such was the opinion of the
shareholders, what encouragement had the public prose-
cutor to proceed I But that time had gone, and many
of these shareholders might entertain different views
now ; but up to the present time no shareholder, or de-
positor, or party interested in any way, had complained
to him. They had done what was more becoming their
position—they had organised themselves into an associa-
tion for the purpose of themselves conducting a searching
and complete investigation into the matter. There was
an association formed in Glasgow, and he had received a
letter from the chairman—not in answer to anything he
had written, but a perfectly volunteer communication—
stating that arrangements were complete for the com-
mencement of the inquiry, that funds had been sub-
scribed to conduct it, and that an accountant had been
appointed who would commence his inquiry on the 1.9. h
inst. That gentleman added that none of those gentle-
men knew of anything which would, justify a criminal
prosecution • but that if they heard of anything they
would put him (the Lord Advocate) in possession of the
facts. It was evident that those gentlemen knew their
affairs better than their representative in that house.
(Hear, hear.) With that statement, he lift the matter
iu the bands of the house.
Mr. E. ELLICE contended that farther proceedings
should tike place, either in the form of a prosecution, or
of a bill for preventing such disasters in future. Thou-
sands of poor persons ha] been induced to place their
money in the bank owing to the supposed respectability
of the directors ; the ruin and distress had been immense.
It was imperatively necessary that the position of banks
should receive greater publicity.
Mr. BLACKBURN said that the depositors would
lose nothing ; their claims would ultimately be satisfied
in full. Not one of the directors had appropriated the
money of the bank ; they were all great losers by its
failure. He did not know why this bank should be
singled out among the many large houses which had
failed during the crisis.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERA.LD contended that there had
been neglect so gross on the part of the directors that it
amounted to criminality. He considered inquiry of
some kind to be necessary.
Mr. MONCRIEFF deprecated prosecutions under.
taken in compliance with popular feeling, without any
eommunioatiou of the facts to the proper authorities. In
the case before them they should wait till the state of the
bank was more fully investigated by the ordinary tri-
bunals.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN protested making a question of
public morality depend upon the pecuniary result of the
affairs of the bank.
Mr. BUCHANAN repeated that the directors of the
Western Bank had not taken any part of the funds, and
were depositors in the bank. He denied the charge of
conspiracy made against the directors. They were men
who bore the character of the highest honour and re-
spectability.
Mr. ATHERTON admitted that the directors bad
stuck by the bank, and had involved themselves and
their relatives in the common rain. But their declara-
tion of a dividend which they were not in a condition to
pay was the declaration of a falsehood. He hoped the
Lord Advocate would see reason to institute proceedings
in the matter.
Mr. H. JOHNSTONE thought a searching investi-
gation necessary after the misery caused by the failure
of the bank.
Mr. COWAN thought that some remedy should be
devised against the recurrence of such disasters, especi-
ally in respect of the system of accommodation bills.
Mr. DRUMMOND denounced the accommodation
system, and inveigled against the conduct of the Duke
of Argyll and other noble persons, who had passed a
public resolution in its favour,
After a few words from Mr. FINLAY and Sir E. COLE-
BROOKE,
Sir M. S. STEWART defended the conduct of those
noblemen who had passed a resolution in favour of the
Scottish system of banking.
After Mr. B&aaow had protested against the con-
tinuance of the debate,
Mr. TURNER urged inquiry into the conduct of the
bank.
The subject then dropped.
THE NELSON MONUMENT IN TRAFALGAR-
SQUARE.
_ _ _

Admiral WALCOT r; who had given notice of his
intention to call attention to this subject, said that there
were times when parsimony on the part of the Govern-
ment was a cause of national shame and 'reprehension.
In the very heart of that great city—the central square
through which its population and every visitor from the
country and every foreigner had to pass—London had
fur yearn presented the humiliating spectacle of a me-
morial to our greatest naval hero left incomplete. It
was unnecessary to remind the hou-e that when he first
went to sea the name of Nelson made our navy the pride
and hope of this country. On it depended the very
xistence of this island and her colonies. With the com-
mand of the sea they stood or fell. While Europe saw
her armies melt away before a general hitherto irresis-
tible, Nelson transferred one by one the successive fleets
of our enemies to the harbours of Portsmouth and Ply-
mouth. At Copenhagen, as at the Nile, he obtained, in
his own empbatic words, "not a victory but a con-
quest." Toe man who had subjugated a continent de-
clared that the fates decreed to France the empire of the
land, but to England the sovereignty of the sea ; and
Talleyrand assigned, as the limits of British supremacy,
wherever a frigate could find water to fteat her. The
crippled maimed body and indomitable spirit of a Nelson,
preserved these shores from the horrors of invasion and by
a martyt's death atTraf.tlgar laid open the road to Water-
loo. He spoke in no spirit of braggarty. He trusted
that the sword was sheathed for ever in amity with
those once our most formidable enemies and now our
firmest allies, and that the mingled blood shed before
Seba,topol had consecrated a perpetual friendship be-
tween us. (Hear, hear.) But he was quite sure that that
chivalric nation, which had never been wanting in offer-
ing tributes of honour to its own fallen worthies, must
observe with feelings which he did not care to describe
our lamentable display of indifference to a man of whom,
if one of themselves, they would have considersd the
noblest and most costly monument too unworthy. A
very moderate grant would provide the accessories of
the Nelson column. A foreign king had been a subscriber
to its completion, but he hoped that we might be spared
any such significant censures for the future. He trusted
that the Government would not allow any further delay
to occur before they redressed a signal wrong to the ines-
timable services rendered by the heroic Nelson, and re-
moved a standing reproach to English gratitude. (Hear.)
He therefore appealed to the house to support him in
urging that duty upon their immediate consideration.
(Hear, hear )
emtirtehcoonhcounr,reannede
gin a
iMtlahrne.
tobservationsAowMhltaiSdc hejxubpsatrdessfspaeoldlkehennisfran.
He
had
always
looked upon it as a great disgrace to England that she
should have allowed to remain so long uncompleted the
monument to one whose achievements constituted her
greatest glory. (Hear, hear.) Before he sat down he
wished to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the inconvenience
which resulted from the present system of bringing for-
ward motions in going into committee of supply, and to
suggest that arrangements might be entered into by
which that inconvenience might be obviated, and a
greater economy of the time of the house effected.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It is
not for me to attempt to restrict the privileges of the
House of Commons,. I have in the course of my experi-
ence in Parliament known many attempts to be made
with that object, all of which proved to be fruitless;
and I feel convinced, air, that the best 'pelmet for any
Government to adopt in reference to the subject is to
trust to the goad sense and good t'mper of the house in
the conduct of the public business—(hear)—and not to
a'tempt to influence its proceedings by effecting any
charge in those rules to which we have so long been
accustomed, and which we all regard and venerate. I
can, however, assure the hon. member who has just
spoken that I shad be ready to take into consideration
any suggestion which he might think proper to make
with respect to this question, while my own impression
certainly is, that the wisest plan for one holding the
position which I have the honour to occupy is to place
full reliance open the kind assistance of the house, and
not to endeavour to control its action by artificial regu-
lations. (Hear.) In reply to the observations of my hon.
and gallant friend behind nee, I can only say that I am
not surprised he should have brought wider our notice
a subject upon which I myself have always felt strongly,
and in which he—a distinguished ornament of that gal-
lant profession to which Nelson belonged— ray natu-
ra ly be supposed to take even a still deeper interest. I
entirely concur with my hon. and gallant friend in the
opinion that the name of Nelson is tee glory of this
country. as I thick that his monument is its shame.
(Cheer 4.) It is, however, a work, of difficulty to remedy
all that has taken place in connection with that unfortu-
nate undertaking. For my own part, I cannot help look-
ing upon it as a great national mistake that monuments
to the memory of British worthies of the cla,s to which
Nelson belonged should not be erected until after the
lapse of so long a time after death has snatched them
from among us, and that even then the erection of those
monuments should be intrusted in the bands of private
persons. lam aware of no single instance in which in-
dividual efforts have been successful in the attainment
of that object. (Fleets) Private subscriptions labour
under the disadvantage of having to be dealt with in
their applica'ion by too many persone, and their ma-
nagement furnishes but too often another instance of
that system of double government which is no
1 anger in fashion. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
There ought, in my opinion, to exist upon the part of a
nation a stronger sense of the recognition due to the
merits of its heroes than I regret to think prevails in this
country. (Hear.) A want of public spirit and of public
feeling-in the case of, a may like Nelson ca not indeed
be hid to our charge, but we certainly are open to the
imputation of a want of taste and of an absence of the
habit of coming forward at the right time to recognise
as we ought to do the servim s of our illustrious men.
(Hear.) To the supereminent merits of the distinguished
individual whose name my hon. and gallant friend has
this evening brought under our notice, I cool I not pre-
sume even to attempt to do justice. I may, however,
remark.of Nelson that he stands alone. The greatest men
in eve ry department of human action find their equals.
Our illustrious Wellington is compared with our famous
Marlborough. But when we come to consider the
heroesthe 131
gallant a r
eerhiend(
achievements of Nelson we find that he has no rival.
(Hear, hear.) It might be said of him, as Cardinal de
fl.etz said of the Marquis of Montrose, that he was
man of modern times who reminded one
of the
H thatear
ithear.)
disgrace
ragree o with
this
really
my hon. and onlyo
gf
a
country that his monument shouldour
fionaontelooangarseinncoet in havea
been completed, and, although
very flourishing condition, I feel, after the observations

of my hon. and gallant friend and the hon gentleman
opposite, quite ashamed to throw any difficulty in the
way of carrying into effect the object for which this mo-
tion was introduced. (Hear, hear.) I shall therefore
take upon myself the responsibility of looking to the
fulfilment of the wishes of my hon. and gallant friend
upon the subject of providing for the completion of a
monument which is so intimately associated with the
glory and the reputation of this country. (Cheers.)
CONTINUOUS SERVICE MEN.

Sir O. NAPIER moved for a return of the number o.
continuous service men who had accepted their dis-
charge, and then crossed the quarter deck and entered
for five years.
Sir J. PAKINGTON suggested to the hon. and gal-
lant admiral that it would be desirable he should not
press his motion at present, promising that he would
take an early opportunity of communicating with the
gallant admiral as to how far it was possible to comply
with the terms of the motion.
The motion was then withdrawn.
DUMFRIES MILITIA.

Mr. B. JOHNSTONE, in calling attention to this
subject, took occasion to state that he had heard that
10,000 of the embodied militia were about to be disem-
bodied, and that he had conzequently felt it his duty to
wait upon the Secretary of State for war to represent to
him the peculiar position in which the Dumfries regiment
of militia was placed. He had also called upon the
Under Secretary for War, and mentioned to him that
the regiment in question had been ordered last Nov.
from Scotland to Aldershot, where it was stationed at the
present moment. He had added that agricultural labour-
ers were hired in Dumfriesshire only twice a-year, viz.,
in the months of Nov. and March, and that, as a conse-
quence, the men who composed the regiment had just
missed the time when they could hope to be employed.
The Secretary for War had informed him that the prin-
ciple which was to be adopted in the case of the militia
was to continue the enlistment of those regiments which
had contributed the greatest number of volunteers to the
line, and which were, moreover, in the highest state of
efficiency. He (Mr. Johnstone) had stated in reply that
his regiment required only 20 men to complete its quota,
while in point of efficiency it was second to none in the
service. He desired to impress upon the house the hard-
ship it was upon the men to send them back to Scotland
at a time when it would be impossible for them to obtain
employment, the only periods at which agricultural la-
bourers were hired in that country being March and
vamber. In order to show the:efficiency of the officers
of the regiment, he might mention that one of the captains
had taken a first-class certificate at Hythe. He thought
the circumstances of the case were so peculiar as to
justify him bringing them under the notice of the house,
and hoped, therefore, he had stated sufficient grounds
for the Government to reconsider this case. (Hear.)
Gen. PEEL perftetly appreciated the kindly motives
that induced the hon. gentleman to bring forward this
subject, but he thought that when he hoard the expla-
nation of the reasons for the step of which he com-
plained, the hon. gentleman would be convinced of its
necessity. The circumstarces under which the militia
were called out were these :—ln consequence of the
drain of troops from this country to India it was deter-
mined to embody 25,000 militia. At that time the num-
ber of rank and file of the regular army in England was
45,998. When he. came jets office he found on the let
of April the number of embodied militia amounted to
29,915, and the rank and file of the regular army to
71,581, being an increase of 25,000 men. The only vote
which had been taken on account of the militia was one
of 100,0001. That sum w, tcl only maintain 10,000
men for six months, and of course, with 30,000 it would
only suffice for two months. Unless, therefore, an addi-
tional vote was taken, it became necessary to reduce
the number cf embodied militia regiments. The
principle upon which the reduction was effected by his
Roy al Highness the Commander-lc-Chief was to dismiss
first those regiments which bad not contributed their foil
quota of volunteers to the Line, and thus it was that
the regiment in question had been selected for disem-
bodiment.
Mr. F. SCOTT confirmed the statements of the hon.
member for Canterbury as to the peculiar hardship of
discharging the Dumfriesshire Regiment at this time.
Had they been disembodied before the 21.ith of last
month no objection would have been made.
Tne house then went into Committee of Supply, Mr.
FITZROY in the chair.

SUPPLY.—EXCHEQUER BILLS.
A vote of 20,911,5001. to meet Exchequer-bi Is fulling
due was agreed to.

NAVY ATES
These estimates were thenSTl proMceeded. with.
Upon the vote of 70,4391. to defray the expenses of
the Admiralty-office,
Sir C. NA.PIER said he could not allow the oppor-
tunity to pass without calling attention to the unsatis-
factory constitution of the Admiralty-office at present.
He thought the business would be better managed if
there were three intea.l of six lords. When the right
hon. baronet the member for Catliele was at the head c f
the navy he effected very great changes. He established
the offiem of Surveyor of the Navy, Controller of the
Victualling Departmen., the heads of the medical de-
partment. the Accountaet-General's Department, and
the Storekeeper-General's Department. That established
independent responsibility, and there could be no doubt
of the efficiency of the officers who filled those offices,
but over each depeetment was placed a Lord of the Ad-
miralty. That system destroyed responsibility, and
introduced all the evils of double government, which
were now so much deprecated, The hon. and gallant
admiral described the mode of doing business at the
Admiralty as in the highest degree unsatiaf Actory, and
such as greatly to impede "She public service. What be
would propose was that the navy should have the
power o' governing itself ; that there should be a Mini-
ster of Marine, assisted by the vice and rear admirals of
Great Britain; that the
.Minister should take the advice
of the admirals, !sift only act upon it if he saw fit to do
so. It was impossible, with the duties divided among
six Lords of the Admiralty, that they could be well dis-
chargecy. They sat is separate tee us, and, as he could
testify, often issued contrad,ctery orders, for he had
himself, when com at ding the Channel fleet, and also
in the Baltic, received orders Directly opposed to each
other. If the right bon. gentleman the First Lord of
the Admiralty would order a commission, he would find
that the entire eystem.wo, one in which a change was
loudly demanded. Tnerecwieerrke LatordthseofA.thdemAiradlmtyirawlhtyo
present who would probably rise and say he was all in
the wrong, but if a commission was appointed he bee
li
eve
would d tnhoetr eg
vwag
evidenceno
against thew. He moved thatt
the vote be reduced by
_3,00.0./.

S said the constitution of the
Board J. K
dof hadPAAdmilliTrilGtyT°N been defended on former occa-
sions
member for much
uchability
by the right hon. gentleman
th Cari and the right gentleman the
iand he regretted that the hon.
member for Halifax, that it was usneceesary for him,
who had been only a few weeks in office, to make any
alengthenedt oobffie ec re
ry aht
ai odiven no netice whatever of theel
proposal he meant to make, as till to nee he (Sir J.
Pakington) had no idea of the nature of that proposal.
The hon. and gallant admiral spoke of the double govern-
ment
of
tthe
the nature
Admiralty' but he really was unable to see
anything of a double eovernment. [Sir C.
Napier—" Toere are double offices."] There were double
offices, no doubt, but that was a totally different thing.
He entirely agreed in al that could be said as to the
great inconvenience that arose from the division of the
business of the Admiralty into two establishments ; but
it was clearly impossible that any vote of the committee
could correct the evil. It arose from the great amount
e enough for the trans-
of business which the Admiralty had to discharge. The
dliatall the important ',ranches
rgwas necessary that that
tahcrteioe
n. f oouf Admiraltyrtt
hhbagut
oi
bl
fduitsnhi gen
ecwsi
9a:rs
kasnnaodnt
except the Surveyor-General's department should be
located in Somerset house because there was not room
enough at the Admiralty for their accommodation. The
attention of Parliament had been drawn to the neces-
sity of constructing new Government offices, and when-
ever that was done he trusted that the whole of the Ad-
miralty establishment would be brought under one roof.
His experience, although short, enabled him to agree
with the gallant admiral in raying that it was impossible
to speak too highly of the ability of the gentlemen
at the head of the civil departments of the Ad-
tnira:ty. Toe business of the Admiralty, however, was
of a peculear character. Professional and civil duties
were mixed up together, and the public urvice was
greatly pro-noted by naval officers of experience and
ability acting as junior Lorda of the Admiralty. The
gailant admiral proposed that the First Lord should be
assisted by a naval council, composed of the Vice• Ad.
miral and the Rear-Admiral of England. He would,
therefore, es far narrow the board as to eubetitute two

lords for the present five junior lords. He was not pre-
pared to 6 iiiction that proposal. Su far as his short ex-
perience enabled him to judge, the advice, coulee), and
xperienca (if four professional gentlemen was not only
i)f great advantage to the F►rst Lon.), but was also of
benefit to the public. He could not assent to the motion
of the gtillant admiral, and he trusted that he would not
press it to a division.
Toe amendment was then negatived, and the vote agreed
to.

On the vote of 118,5921. for Coastguard service and Royal
Naval
C. N
CoastAVpoiluatcez
thought
tha .
Sirtdttihicatpresentcondition Laving had tnila oP
Coast-
guard, he
given to him by Commodore Edon of inspecting the
was highly satisfactory. The principle of a naval militia as
embodied in the Royal Naval Coast Volunteers was a sug-
gesti on of his own, 111 do so long ago a; 1819, and repeated
by him half-a-dozen times since. The plan had not yet been
carried out far enough, fer the term of 28 days was not
titio
sufficient for exercising the men. lie thought that the
of
tPheartt übno ly
ilt
y
Coastguard obtained their Tensions too easily, and that it
would be better to call upon thou to serve a longer period
afloat before they became entitled to' a pension. At present
the privileges given to the Coastguard were calculated to
cause great discontent among the seamen, who had to serve
20 yea• s afloat before they gA a pension. The great object
of the Ad.niralty should be to hold out more encouragement
to seamen to enter the Ptoyal navy. Ships were miv four,
five, and 'even Aix months before they could be rmenned.
Why should not the Government give both a bounty and a
kit to the sailor as well as to the so'dier ? The Admiralty
ought to have a fleet of teu sail in the Channel all the sum-
mer, and a Coastguard blockship should go out and cruise
with the fleet. . . .

Admiral WALCOTT -recommended that a training brig
should he attached to eaoh Coastguard ship.
Sir J. PAKINGTON would remind his hon. and gillant
friend that under the regulations of his predecessor et the
Admiralty one or two gunboats wera attached to each •f the
Coastguard ships. He felt the f.,rce of what the gallant Ad-
miral (Napier) had said upon the danger that the Coastguard
men, however good and valuable in the first instance, would
lie
become less efficient as they remained on shore, unless tome
steps were taken to keep up their seagoing experience.
would not lose sight of this subject.
Admiral WALCOTT slid that gunboats not being square-
rigged were perfectly useless for keeping up the naval krow-
ledge of the co st volunteers. Their only use was to present
a disposition to sea-sickness. (A laugh.)
Sir C. WOOD said that when they wanted to increase the
number of coastguards it was necessary as an inducement to
rehee the number of years' service, but having filled up.the

numbers it was no longer neeessaPy to spread their net so
widely.
The vote was agreed to, and also a vote of 30,615/. for the
scientific branch.
Upon a vote of 81,6341. for her Majesty's establishments at
home,
Col. BOLDERO said he wished to put some questions to
the late First Lord of the Admiralty. In consequence of his
being chairman of the committee on contracts which sat last
year, a letter had come to him, dated the 4th of April, 1857,
in these terms :
" My dear Sir,—After all the assurances which we have re-
ceived that the Government never give out important orders
but by contract, and always accept the lowest tender for
stores, you will be surprised to hear that a very large private
order for prepared meats, upwards of half a million pounds'
weight, have been given to Messrs. So-and-So for the service
in China, without any public notice of the requirement, and
consequently Messrs. So-and-So have had an unrestricted
price. Besides this being an act of injustice to the trade, the
public service will be injured by the inferiority of the articles
arising out of the haste and the unseasonable period at which
they are preserved, particularly should meat form a portion,
whereas, if the contract had been thrown open to competition,
the Government would have found themselves amply provided
with meats in a state ready for immediate shipment, and
which had been put up at a proper season in good order. On
the contrary, an unfair preference has been given, to the
detriment of the public service. This is sad jobbing, and lam
not at all surprised at the general expression of discontent
wheneverpublic contracts are meationei. (Cries of "Name r)
He would show the letter to the late and the present First
Lord of the Admiralty, and when he had done so he was sure
they would both admit the respectability of the authority,
and that it was such as could not for a moment be supposed
to give information not founded on fact. The Admiralty inva-
riably obtained their supplies by open tender, and they ac-
cepted the lowest tender, provided the contractor was proved
to be a man of substance. It was also the system of the East
India Company; but not of the army. They had three courses
by which to obtain supplies —by open tender, by au office-list,,
or by purchasing on the spur of the moment. The questions
arising out of this letter which ho wished to ask were—
whether the supply referred to was delivered, and, if so, was
it received or rejected? What was the nominal value? In what
part of the estimates the transaction appeared I And why it
was not an open tender ?
Sir C. WOOD was afraid he could not answer the questions.
The hon. and gallant officer was rather behind time. This
was an order given in April, 1857, is reference to preserved
meats, which must have been sent out to China 12 months
ago. Why, on earth, did not the hon. and gallant member
put his question last year ?
Col. BOL DERO said the letter was not in his possession.
Sir C. WOOD understood that it was received a year ago.
It was impossible to remember the details of a transaction
which occurred a year ago, or to answer questions on those
details, especially when put without notice. (Hear.) With
regard to the general statement the hon. and gallant member
was entirely mistaken. It was not the invariable rule of the
Admiralty to obtain all the supplies which they might re-
quire by open contract and is invariably to take the lowest
tender. The practice which he pursued, and which was pur-
sued 20 years ago, was, as a general rule, to take the lowest
tender, but not to do so if another offer wore more advanta-
geous for the public service. (Hear.) With regard to pre-
served meats, it was one of those items on which they were
bound to be most careful. It was quite impessib'e to be cer-
tain that that the meats were properly preserved, A quantity
had been sent to the Crimea, and some was bad before it got
there, and some was good when it came back. Of meat pre-
served by the same person sometimes a portion would fail at
the end of three months, and a portion not fail at the end of
three years. It would be most unwise to throw a contract
of that kind open to public competition, as the only security
was to go to a person whom they bad reason to trust, and
upon whom they could rely, (Hear, leer.)
Mr. MILNES said that if the Admiralty went on the plan
of taking the lowest tender for preserved meats, they would
get such trash as would be of no use whatever. The committee
which sat some years ago on this subject came to the conclu-
sion that it was not always possible to get an entirely good
supply, even from the best contractors ; and they recom-
mended that the Admiralty should not mat e a point of
accepting the lowest tender, and that they should, as much
as possible, adopt the principle of making their own preserved
meats.
Sir C. WOOD said that, to show the inequality of the sup-
ply, he had lately tasted some of Mr. Goldner's preserved
meat, the contractor of whose supplies so much complaint
had been made, which had been six years in store, and very
good it was.
Sir F. BARING said, that so far from its being the rule at
the Admiralty to accept the lowest tender, when the Arctic
expedition was fitted out au order for the preserved most was
given to a contractor, in whom confidence was felt, to furnish
the quantity required entirely without reference to pric 3.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE thought that sufficient care was not
taken as to the accuracy of the ehymicals used and the qua-
lity of the meat preserved. If the animals preserved were not
of first-rate quality, the juices and the fat were lost, and when
it came to be eaten it was like so much ropeyarn. The atten-
tion of the Admiralty might very advantageously be turned
to this matter, for if proper chymical anti-scorbutics were ad-
ministered to the sailors, many more years' work might be
got out of them.
The vote was then agreed to, as was a vote of 17,2791.
to defray the expenses of her Majesty's establishment
broad.
On the vote of 486,9211. to defray the wages of artificers,
(Sic., employed in her Majesty's establishments at house,
Sir J. PAKINGTON said t` at, before this vote was dis-
cussed, it was necessary for him to call attention to an error
in the estimates as prepared by the late Government. He
did not mean to impute any blame to his predecessors, nor
to those who had assisted him in drawing up the estimates ;
but, of course, it was of the greatest importance that ac-
counts of this kind should be stated with accuracy. If the
items of expenditure printed in the estimate did not corres-
pond with the real amounts to be defrayed, the result was
that both the members of the Government and the House of
Commons were misled. The committee would recollect that
he objected on Monday night to adopt the number of men
intended to be proposed by the late Government for the dock-
yards—viz., 12,190, but proposed to take a vote of 5/,0001.
for hired labour to meet the existing pressure in the dock-
yards, as that was half of the apparent difference between the
establishments of the last and the present years. The com-
mittee would perceive by the estimates that the proposed
establishment of 12,190 men was estimated at 737,751/.,
while the smaller stablishment of 10,850 was estimated at
617,751/., showing a difference of 10e,000/. It was on that
ground that he proposed on Monday to take a vote of 50,000/.
to carry on the works in the dockyards for the next six
mouths, On Tuesday he requested the Surveyor of the Navy
to draw up a programme of those works on which that sum
could be most beneficially expended. The answer he received
frem that gentleman surprised him very much; for ho sa'd,
" You have not got 50,00 11 ; you have only got 20,000/ " Ho
asked for an explanation and received an answer to the effect
that 30,030/, of the 50,0001, that he had obtained on Monday
would be required to make up a deficiency which by acci-
dent occurred in the estimates for the preceding year. Ho
(Sir J. Pakington) believed that it was an accident. He ought
to have explained that 10,0001., or thereaeouts, of this defi-
ciency arose from an increase in the wages paid to the la-
bourers in the dockyard last year. The remainder of the de-
ficiency arose from asking for less than the establishment of
last year required. That error he believed was owing to the
haste with which the estimates were cut down list year. The
original estimate was 22,000/. more than the tstimateactually
submitted to Parliameut. The vote for Deptford dockyard,
for instance, .was 36,517/., but the original estimate was
40,4721. ; for Woolwich dockyard the vote was 75,2711., but
the original estimate was 79,771/ , and so en, When the
entire estimate for the dockyards was reduced last year, no
corresponding reduction was made by the Government in the
number of men, He did not mention this matter to cast
blame upon any one. It was in fact a business affilig. and the
error must be corrected. (dear, hear.) Of course the officer
of the Admiralty upon whom the blame might be supposed to
rest was the Accountant-General, but he thought it due to
that able financier, who was deservedly mentioned in terms of
great
praise on Monday night, to state that by a most ob-
jectionable arrangement made in 1850 this particular vote
was taken out of his control and placed in that of the Sur-
veyor of the Navy and the Board of Admiralty. Since that
time all that the Accountant-General had to do was to place
in the estimates th stun which they thought nee 2ssary to
the dockyard establishments. He had no power to subject
their proposals to the revision to which ho subjected all the
other amounts proposed to be inserted in the estimates.
That system led to great inaccuracies and inconveniences—
for example, the committee would observe that in the esti-
mates for one year there was a vote for 319 men in a partici'.
lar department, and for 538 men in another ; but there was
no entry in either case of the amount of money required for
their wages. He could not understand why the particular
vote in which the error which he had first raoltioned had
occurred should not be inserted like any of the other nary
votes in the estimates. (Hear.) He bad now but one course
to take, viz., to ask the committee to grant 30,000/, more
than he asked for on Monday night, in order that the defici-
ency might be covered. (Hear.)
Sir C. WOOD admitted that, to a certain extent, be under-
stood the statement of the right hon. gentleman, bat he sou' d
not quite see the error of which he complained. He did not
know on what authority the right hon. gentleman asserted
that the late Government made reductions iu the navy esti-
mates so carelessly as to ask for less money than was necessary
to maintain the number of workmen agreed to by the house
411 their proposition. The statement ale) right hon gentle-
nian was altogether unexpected, and lie was therefore not pre-
pared with documents to answer it. The inadequacy of the esti-
mate for the present year must depend upon whether 737,0001.
which the late Government proposed to vote, was too little for
an establishment of 12,190 men, To a certain extent it would
have been impossible, even if the house had agreed to give
the w'-role of the additional men requested by Government to
obtain the outire number in the course of the first few months
of the year, and therefore a sum less than the whole amount
of the wages of the whole number of the men for the whole
year wok'd not have been au inadequate estimate. He pre-
sumed, Vrerefore, that the right hon. baronet intended to im-
pugn not the estimate f,r the past 12 mouths, but that for
the ensuing year. The statement of the sum voted last year
was perfectly true. There might have been an excess of ex-
penditure for wages in the dockyards ; he did not know whe-
ther the fact was se or not ; but there could be no doubt that
tire sum voted was 637,000/. The late Government were,
therefore, bound to put that sum in the estimates, and hence
the only question could be whether the sum proposed to be
voted for tire present year was adequate for the establishment
which could by possibility be obtained within the year. He
understood the right hon. baronet to say that 737,0001. would
not pay the wages of 12,190 men,
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I have not said anything of the
kind.
Sir C. WOOD could not see, then, where the alleged inac-
curacy lay. It could not be in the es imate of lastyear be-
cause the late Government were bound to state the actual
sum voted, and then they proposed to add 100 000/
for the present year, in order to provide for as'many, ni
ad;ll°-
t. onal men as the surveyor might think right, thus raising the
estimate for wee-es to the amount of 737,0001 The object of
that increase was to get rid of the extra payments for hired
lebourers Tire right iron, baronet had charged him with do-
parting fi om the recommendation of the committee appoint( d
on the motion of Lord Seymour. Now, the recommendation
of that committee was that, if an increase were necessary,
it should be done by an addition to the permanent es:a-
blis merit and not by the employment of extra men. During
the Russian war, finding hired labour was the most avail-
able means of iicreasing the work done in the dock-
yards, the late Government had recourse to it ; but he
repeated now what ire state I then, that a worse system could
H
not be adopted during peace. e believed that 737,000/.
was an adequate sum for paying the establishment for the
present year, and therefore, unless the right hon. baronet
told him that those persons who were answerable for the
details had miscalculated the amount of wages necessary for
the payment of 12,190 men, he could not admit that there
eves any inaccuracy in the estimates.
Sir J. PAKINGTON did not impugn tire estimate for the
present year. What he stated Ails that the estimate for last
year, as it appeared iu the papers before the committee, was
incorrect. The Government last year took 22,0001. off their
estim to, but made no reduction in the e-tablishment, and
the result was that instead of having 100,000/, for extra
labour iu the present year he bad only in round number's
70,0001.
Sir F. BARING said that gentlemen in office possessed
peculiar advantages when commenting upon the conduct of
their predecessors. The Fist Lord of the Admiralty had

been kind enough to inform the house that certain alterations
of which he did not approve were made in 1850 ; but, fail-
ing in that courtesy which was usually shown by one official
man to another, he had not given the slightest notice of his
intention to make that statement to anybody who was con-
nected with the Admiralty at that time. Ho did not know
whether the right hon. baronet had obtained his information
from Mr. Bromley, but that gentleman was not at the Admi-
ralty when the alteration in question was made; and although
the change itself might appear wrong to the right hon. Bart.,
who had been only a short time in office, the committee
should know that it was effected by a Most intelligent officer
who was connected with the Admiralty in 1850. For his own
part he was still of opinion that the Surveyor of the Navy was
better able to frame an estimate than the accountant-Gene-
ral, who merely kept the accounts - and at all events, when
the right hon. baronet next travelled out of his way to
attack the conduct of his predecessor in 1850, he would take
it as an act of justice if he would have the kindness to
give him some previous notice of his intention. (Hear, hear.)
He confessed that he could not understand the explanatory
statement of the right hon. baronet. The result of it, how-
ever, was the very uncomfortable one that the house would
have to vote an additional sum of 30,0001. He might be per-
mitted to say that that discrepancy which the right hon.
baronet had pointed out was not so remarkable or uncommon
as he seemed to imagine. When an establishment was re-
duced, it did not follow that the reduction in the expense
would be equal to the reduction in the number of the men.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could not too strongly express his re-
gret at finding that most unconsciously and unintentionally
he had given offence to the right hon. baronet opposite. The
best proof he could give of the innocence of his intention was
that at the moment he spoke he did not recollect that the
right hon. baronet was the First Lord of the Admiralty in
1850. (A laugh.) If he had recollected that circumstance
he might have given him notice, but still he was not quite
certain that he would have done so, inasmuch as he did not
attack the right hon. baronet or anybody else. (Hear, hear.)
He simply stated a fact which the right hoe. baronet had now
confirmed, that in 1850 a change was made with respect to
the management of these votes. The right hon. baronet
thought the alteration a good one; but that it was bad the
committee had a practical proof in the errors which had crept
into the estimates. (Hear, hear.) His own opinion was,
that those errors would not have occarred if the votes had
been brought under the supervision of the Accountant-
General. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. baronet had stated
that 30,0001. was wanted to cover a deficiency of last year.
Thera was a deficiency to that amount to be covered, but he
und-rstood it was partly met by a surplus of 20,0001. in
another vote, and therefore no larger sum than 10,0001.
would have to be provided in some other way. (Hear.)
Sir F. BARING said that such an arrangement might have
been as that referred to by the right hon. gentleman, but he
did not recollect it,
Sir C. WOOD said that if there were a mistake it was
quite of the right hon. gentleman's own makins. (Hear, and
a laugh.) The right hon. gentleman said that he (Sir C.
Wood) improperly reduced the estimate last year without
regard to the establishment to be maintained, and that tho
estimate was below the requisite amount to the extent of
22,0001. Now, he found that she whole sum voted for the
year 1855-56—the last year of the war—was 864,000/. That
sum included 250,000/. for additional wages for extra work to
be performed by task and job, and for the pay of hired men.
Deducting 250,000/. from 864,000/., there remained 614,0001.
as the sum required for the regular est tblishment. For the
next year the sum voted was 839,000/., which included
225,000/. for extra work by task and job, and for the pay of
hired men. Taking 225,000/. from 839,000/., there remained
614,000/. as the sum due for wages for the establishment.
Now, the sum voted last year was 637,000/., which
exceeded the sum shown on the two preceding esti-
mates as due to the establishment by 23,000/. ; being
1000 S more than the sum which the righa hon. gen-
tleman said he (Sir C. Wood) had improperly dealt with.
Tee right hon. gentleman had made something like a charge
that the estimates had been misstated, but all that was
done was according to practice to put down tke esti-
mates for the present year the vote of last year, and he did
not understand that the right hon. gentleman denied that
the estimate for the present year was adequate for the men
proposed to be employed. Therefore, the vote of last year
was correctly stated, and the estimate for the present year was
also correct in reference to the services to be performed.
(Hear, hear.) When an end was put to task-work 23,000/.
were provided for any occasional labour that might be re-
quired in the course of the year, and therefore the attack
made by the right hon. gentleman was totally unjustifiable.
(Hear, hear.) The fact was obvious. The right hon. gentle-
man was determined to make a reduction from what had
been proposed, and somehow or other took off 5 ',NSW., not
knowing why or wherefore, and in order to justify himself
made an attack against him (Sir C. Wood). (" Hear," and
cries of " Oh !")
Sir J. PAKINGTON could not too strongly express his
regret at the tone in which the right hon. gentleman had
spoken. (Hear, hear.) As a matter of business he could
not avoid mentioning the circumstance, and now the right
hon. gentleman charged him with making an utterly un-
justifiable attack. He did not like these criminations aid
recriminations, and had said that at first he thought it was
an accidental error ; but let him tell the right hon. gentle.
man, since ho held such language, that he had got the
right hon. gentleman's letters in his haul,though he did
not wish to make use of them. He had got the old estimate
and the new estimate, and the changes—two changes—of the
figures in rod ink. He had got, too, the right hon. gentle-
man's lettere directing those changes. (Hear, heir.) The
fact was incontrovertible that the Government I,st year
prepared an estimate for 10,850 men, and at the last moment
knocked off 23,000!., without making a corresponding reduc-
tion in the e,tablishment. The result was that the estimate
presented to the house gave an erroneous view of the expendi-
ture in last year. He had made no charge against the right
hon. gentleman, supposing that the error arose from the pre-
cipitation with which the estimates were produced last year,
and he regretted the tone adopted by the right hon. gentle-
man. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. WOOD was sorry if he had said anything to annoy
the right hon. gentleman, but he thought an attack had
been made on him. He was speaking to a great disad•
vantage, because he could not refer to official documents and

to letEeis, which, under ordinary circumstances, would be in
his possession. He proposed last year an establishment of
,•10,850 men, for which 614,000/. were taken as an adequate
p tyment ' • and he also proposed a sufficient sum, as he
b 3lieved, beyond that to provide for hired artificers and extra
labour, because it was not till the present year he proposed to
put the whole on the establishment. In the first estimate
prepared last year a lower sum was contemplated than was
ultimately taken, but he did not think it fair that an inten-
tion not carried into effect should be referred to. (Hear,
hear.) In his belief 614,000/, formed an adequate sum for
the wages of 10,850 men, though at one time he thought of
taking a larger sum.
Sir F. SMITH referred to the amount of wages given in the
dockyard, and observed that the men were very much under-
paid. The expense of house rent in such places as Chatham,
Portsmouth, and Devonport was very high, and it could not
be expected that men in the receipt of 13s. 6d a-week, who
had to pay 3s. or 3s. 6d. a-week for rent, could support their
wives and families adequately upon the remaining 10s. a-
week. The consequence was, that these underpaid labourers,
although honest, could nob be zealous in the discharge of
their duties, but they husbanded their energies during the
day, in order that by working in the evenings they might
make some addition to their miserable wages. He was in-
formed that bricklayers in London earned from 3s. to 3s. 6d,
a-day, while the artisans in the dockyard boroughs (a laugh)
only received 2s. 2cl. a.day. He hoped the First Lord of the
Admiralty would direct his attention to this subject.
Mr. P. W. MARTIN observed that workmen in private
ship-building yards received ss. or ss. 6d. a-day, and he
thought it was a mistaken economy to give so low a rate
of wages to the artisans on the public establish-
ments. It was the opinion of Mr. Stephenson, Sir S.
Poto, and ether competent authorities, that men employed
in such labour as was performed in the dockyards ought to
have a good meal of meat daily, but many a time
during his canvass (laughter) —he found the working.
men employed in the dockyard making their dinner on bread,
cheese, and potatoes. He believed that the saving effected
by underpaying these labourers was fully counterbalanced by
the inefficiency of their work. He also complained that
while those civil servants who were paid by the year had
been relieved from the superannuation tax, the shipwrights,
blacksmiths, and joiners, who received weekly wages were
subjected to a superannuation tax of 20 per cent.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought the present First Lord of the
Admiralty and the two right hon. gentlemen who formerly
held that office had occupied the time of the house very un-
necessarily about a small amount of 30,000/., for he found
that some of these estimates were formed upon mere guesses,
and under one head in a former year 516,000/, more than was
voted by the house according to the estimate had been ex-
pended, while under another head 300,0001. less than was
votel by the house had been disbursed. Since the termina-
tion of the French war not less than 77,000,090/. had been
expended upon our navy. What had become of it ! It bad
been spent, to a great extent, upon rubbish, and also in waste
and jobbery. There was no remedy for this state of things
except the adoption of the American system, under which an
account was given each session of the manner in which the
money voted during the preceding year had been expended.
Mr. WHITE said that, notwithstanding the placid, he might
almost say contemptuous, Indifference with which the house
received the representations made by h an. members who repre-
sented ports at which there were dockyards, he could not
refrain from saying a few words in support of the claim to con.
sideration which had been advanced on the part of the
dockyard labourers. There was now no dockyard at
the borough for which ho sat, but he had visited that
of the neighbouring borough of Devonport, which had
the advantage of being represented by the late Secretary
of the Treasury. He would not say how gratified the cies-
tors of that borough were at having for their repreieutative
a gentleman 'so nearly connected with the Treasury, or what
he hal promised them ; but he was informed that, while one
class of artisans had had their wages advanced, another class
who did not generally lived in that locality had had theirs
diminished. Labourers who lived in Plymouth Lad had their
wages reduced 2e, per week, while the pay of ropemakers,
sailmakers, and some other classes bad been advanced 3s.
Sir J. PAKINGTON denied that any feeling of contemp-
tuous Ind fference existed in that house towards the repre-
sentatives of the working classes. Against any such con-
struction he strenuously protested. It was most essential for
the general prosperity of the country that the working classes
should be contented and happy ; and when any hon member
brought forward facts to show that they were treated with
injustice, it was the duty of that house to pay every atten-
tion to his statement. He wa quite prepared to admit tl 0
possibility that the wages of labour might be unduly de-
pressed by coin etition. With regard to the wages paid in
the dockyards ho could only say that ho looked upon that
subject as one well worthy of attention—(hear)—
ahned course
he visited the dockyards, as ho proposed to do in
of the summer, he should investigate the whole twcircum-
stances. (Hear, hear.)
should WILSONnever
fee said,l
it tto
hhea
seed
duty
yr
ta se
urge
he was
thatn s concerneden
the
Execu-
tive i
upon
in their
y increase of expenditureti
judgment was necessary.
kr dm
etno
at
th e alterations
Devonport,
made last year h
et beyondtw.eogia.
in the wages olVti
cases, but his right lion, friend
them.
and referred to by the hon. memtebnedr,(lsietrwcahsanroletsawvvaelesitio)fwtlatottsde
probably be able to explain
The inference which
the hon. member apparentlytto be
hseopuote.ehttty well
oder
rehfin-otitnedthheyfatchtes
he had mentioned ought
course which he (Mr. Wilson) had pursuedlast year in
opposing the repeal of the superannua ion allowance
to abate-
ments.•the That course was naturally in opposition
feelings of a large number of his constituents By the bill of
the noble lord (Naas) the wages of our most highly paid
d ate immediately t o
Tthhies ewxatse
nt
of 70,0001 , and ultimately to
easeldoO,imoomo. e/
public servants were incl.
the face of the fact that hundreds of men in Government
empley were drag ing out a miserable existence upon 13s.
a-week, oat of which he knew they had to pay ss. or 6s. per
week for their lodgings in consequence of the high rents in
the towns wh.ere they were compelled to reside. (Hear.)
This was the class of persons to whom he had referred last
year as being most underpaid and as most demanding the at-
tention of the Government, and who, while those be had men-
tioned had received a lavish grant of 70,00 W. a year, had net
their pay increased by one farthing. (Hear, hear.) In plead-
ing the can-c of these men, the representatives of dockyard
towns were pleading the cause of non-voters against those
who possessed the suffrage, and they could not therefore be
accused of interested motives,
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said, t' o Government possessed the
larger part of the property in the town which he represented

(Portsmouth), and the dockyard labourers there were in a
wretched condition. It would be a disgrace to any country
gentleman if his labourers were in no better state. He was
glad to hear that the First Lord of the Admiralty meant to
take these circumstances into consideration. He did net be-
Here that many labourers could be got to work in pr.:rate
dockyards for 13s. per week. .

Mr. J. EWART suggested that many of these complaints
would be obviated if some of the work now done in the Go.
vernment dockyards were left to private enterprise, by whicb
it would be done a great deal better and cheaper.
Sir F. BARING said that a great deal of canvassing was
now going on relative to the wages of the dockyard labourers,
and expectations were excited on the part of these poor men
which were not likely to be realised. He, therefore, en-
treated the Government, if they had not already made up
th, it minds on this subject, to do so as soon as possible, la
order that the agitatiun which now existed might be net at
rest. With regard to the question of superannuation, top-
gether with the deductions to which the civil service was sub-
jected, the committee had recommended that it should b.
referred to two impartial actuaries. If the actuaries LA
made their report, perhaps the Government would say wise.
ther they had any objection to lay it on the table.
General CO DRINGTON said, there was a great difference
between the wages paid in the arsenal at Woolwich and those
paid in the dockyard. The dockyard received the inferior
labourers, and a constant change of hands took place, which
was detrimental to the proper exeeution of the work..
Mr. WEGUELIN observed, that in the payment of salaries
to the civil service the remuneration ought strictly to corres-
pond with the amount and quality of the work done. They
ought not to complicate the question by haying tl calculate
what deduction should be made on account of the superan-
nuation pension.

Sir C. WOOD said, that the late Government had regulated
the wages they paid according to the principle of supply and
demand. They had raised the rate of pay of that class of arti-
ficers whose services they could not secure at the previous
se Ile of remuneration. With regard to the wages of the
labourers, the rate was the same in all the Government dock.
yards, and it would be difficult to make it otherwise ; whereas
the wages paid by private employers in the various neigh.
bourhoods often differed considerably. If varying rates .wero
adopted by the Government they would create a good deal of
heartburning. 'At Plymouth the wages of the established
labourers who were not permanently employed, and who
could come and go whenever they pleased, had not been in-
creased. The opinion that he had previously expressed as to
the estimate for wages, dye. was confirmed by the memoran-
dum which the First Lord Of the Admiralty had handed hint
for perusal.

The vete was then agreed to.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
General PEEL, in rising to move that a sum not exceeding
2,454,097/ bo granted to her Majesty to defray the expenses
for pay and a lowauces to her Majesty's land forces abroad,
said that if the committee would refer to page 2 of
the estimates, containing the abstract of those estimates,
it would find that they were divided into six parts.
He should, however, submit to the consideration of the
committee upon that occasion only that portion of the esti-
mates which related to the effective department of the army.
It was desirable to obtain the votes for that department pre-
vious to the introduction of the Budget, and he trusted,
therefore, that the committee would excuse him if he re•
frained front entering into any detailed observations upon the
subject of the various items contained in the estimates. If
the committee were to enter upon that occasion into a
general discussion of that nature he was afraid that not only
would no progress be made in taking the votes, but that no
satisfactory decision with respect to the several items of
which they were composed could be arrived at. (Hear, hear.)
It was customary in moving the estin.ates to institute a com-
parison between their present amount and that of the precede
ing year, in order that the house might be afforded an oppor-
tunity of forming an opinion in reference to the expediency
of any changes in the amount which might be proposed. He
bad simply to sta e upon that point that while the difference
in the gross amount of the army estimates for this and the
preceding year was but slight, there was a considerable varia-
tion of some of the items for the two periods—a variation the
reasons of which he should explain when he brought forward
these estimates more in detail. There was, however, but one
great comparison to be drawn in such cases—namely, that
between the proposed amount of expenditure and the abso-
lute wants of the service. (Hear.) The proper system to
adopt was to combine together, as far as possible, economy
and efficiency, and he felt bound in justice to the noble lord
who had precede I him in office to say that he appeared to
have framed his estimates upon the combination of those two
important principles. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, so thoroughly
had that pol'cy been carried out by the noble lord that when
he (Gen. Peel) had examined the estimates with view of dis-
covering what reductions in them might be effected, he
had came to the conclnsion that he would be justified in
diminishing them only by a sum of 10,000/. by poetpon-
jug some votes which might be brought forward upon a
future occasion, shoold the exigencies of the service require
it, but the postponement of which would be productive of no
public inconvenience. He should upon that occasion parti-
cularise only one vote in the estimates, and that was a sum
of 10,0001. in order to secure 100 68-p,mndei sto Malta. It
would be recollected that when the estimates bad been framed
last year a great reduction had unfortunately been made in
the army ; but, while he was no advocate for keeping up a
large army, circumstances over which he In dno control ren-
dered it imperative upon us to keep our army at a certain
numerical standard. He trusted the house would excuse
him from entering further into detail, and he begged to con-
elude by placing the vote which he had risen to move in the
chairman's hands. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel VIVIAN hoped that when the right hon. and gal-
lant-general entered into the general statement to which he
had adverted, he would be prepared to give to the committee
some explanation in reference to the reduction which he had
made in the votes for the purchase of land for the erection of
new barracks at Windsor.
ueral PEEL said the Government had come to the con.
elusion that no possible inconvenience could result from the
postponement of the purchase to which the hon. and gallant
member alluded.
The vote was then agreed to, as was also a vote of
409,6511. for miscellaneous charges in connection with the
land forces at home and abroad.
A vote of 150,0001. to defray the expenses of the embodied
militia having been put,
Colonel BOLDERO complained of the inconvenience which
resulted from placing a large number of items under one ge-
neral bead in the estimates. The vote for the militia this
year was general, and did not, as usual, give the various stunts
charged for the different branches.
Captain VIVIAN wished to know whether there was to be
any general statement of the reasons for the reductions which
had been made in the estimate framed by the late Govern•
went.

General PEEL said he should explain tke reasons for the
reduction upon each vote as it was taken.
The vote was then agreed to, as was also one for 58,0001.
to complete the sum necessaryto defray the cost of the vo-
lunteerforces in Great Britain.

The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house re•

LOAN SOCIETIES BILL.
The bill passed through committee.
The house adjourned at a quarter-past 12, until Itionda:

A DVERTIORMENT.j— Elle Recent Changes of Tempera-
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