The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-18 00:00:00

ri-IE SUN, LONDON FRI DAY E VENINM, MINE lB, 1858.

feeling in this country. He felt convinced that the
moderate course pursued by her Majesty's Government
would tend to calm the existing excitement, and cause
some agreement to be came to on the subject. But her
Majesty's Government should consider how far it was
advisable that we should from time to time be liable to
embroil ourselves with a foreign power, which disagree-
ments, however we might be able to accommodate them,
were very inconvenient. He regretted to hear what the
noble earl, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, had said
with regard to the French immigration of negroes. He
had hoped that the French Government would have re-
considered that matter. fie agreed that it was neither
more nor less than the slave trade, and he hoped that
the remonstrances of her Majesty's Government would
have effect. This was a proof of the difficulty that existed
in dealing with foreign governments in this matter ; ft'r
there was no disguising the fact that other nations did
not look with the same abhorrence on the slave trade
as we in this country did. There was one point which had
not been touched on which he was anxious to bring
before the notice of the house, and that was our present
relations with Brazil with reference to the slave trade
and our treaties on the subject. There was in ex-
istence an act, called Lord Aberdeen's Act, by which
this country was precluded from entering into any
commercial treaty with Braz'l during the continuance of
the slave trade. No doubt that measure had induced the
Brazilian Government to act with energy in the matter,
and had raised a public opinion against the slave trade in
that country ; but he thought it would be a wi,e policy to
repeal that act, and to enter into a slave trade treaty and
at the same time a commercial treaty with Brazil, and
generally to modify the policy which was rightly adopted
some years ago, but which altered circumstances no
longer. required. He was told that the general trade on
the African coast had greatly diminished ; a fact which
would be productive of fatal results in reference to the
advance of civilisation in that country. He had always
wished not only to put an end to the slave trade but to
increase the legitimate trade on the African coast which
was a large and increasing trade, and carried civilisation
and Christianity in its wake.
Earl GREY entirely concurred with his noble friend
who had jest sat down with regard to the extreme irn
portance of the trade with the African coa-t, as the
means of civilising and Christianising that country. Bat
he must remind him that it was the opinion of every one
acquainted with the subject, and especially of Dr. Living-
stone, that the legitimate trade could not go on until the
slave trade was put an end to. Legitimate commerce was
destroyed by the slave trade, and it was only by the inter-
ference of this country that it could be put an end to. The
true legitimate trade was increasing, and great hopes had
been entertained that the slave trade would be put down.
But that bright prospect had been blighted, and that by
two great countries--the United States of America and
France. He would assert boldly, and without fear of con-
tradiction, that in the eyes of God and man the United
States and France were responsible for the renewal of
the African slave trade. With regard to the United
States, he concurred in the opinions which had been ex-
pressed of the necessity of our acting with the greatest
caution and forbearance. However indignant we might
feel at the monstrous prostitution of the United States'
1 flag, it was not only our dety but true wisdom—having
regard to the object in view—to remain rigidly within
the line of our duty, and not to put ourselves
in the wrong. But he could not help thinking that his
noble friend who spoke last attached too much credit to
the American accounts of what had occurred, which had
not yet been checked by those of our own officers, and
that we were acting too hastily. His noble friend spoke
of an American squadron in the Cbannel overhauling
our outward bound vessels. No doubt we should not
allow that for a moment, and he doubted whether we
had ever consented to the right of search. Our orders
to our officers were, if they knew that a ship was bone
,Mile a vessel belonging to the United States, though she
might be engaged in the slave trade, though there was
proof legal and moral that she was a slaver, the orders
to our cruisers were not to interfere with her ; but we
had a treaty with Spain against the slave trade, and we
were not to be prevented in the case of a ship coming
out of Cuba, though under the United States flag, from
ascertaining whether she was a United States ship or
whether she was Spanish or not, or whether she had no
papers at all, and was consequently a pirate ; in that
case only we claimed a right to visit a vessel, and to see
what she really was ? If she had American papers, we
discharged her, and left to the United States the dis•
grace of being engaged in such a traffic. But, in order
Ito ascertain whether a flag was properly carried by a
vessel we must have the right to visit. At the same
time he hoped that the orders to our cruisers would be
strict not to visit ships against which there was not
strong prima facie evidence that they had no right to
use the American flag. Great discretion ought to be
exercised, and if it was not exercised officers who failed
in that respect ought to be recalled. With regard to
France the case was stronger. That a great Christian
nation, that the great Emperor of France should be a
gigantic slave dealer, was a fact almost too disgraceful
to be believed ; but so it was. We knew that it was
with reference to the ship which was captured by ne-
groes. We knew that wars were stirred up in Africa
in i order that prisoners might be taken for the purpose
of being sold to the French Government. France was
amenable in the eyes of God and man for destroying
legitimate commerce with Africa. It was known
that negroes were brought down to the coast and put on
board vessels commanded by French officers. In the
case in question the slaves rose, and did not murder,
but in the exercise of 'a sacred right, the attempt to re •
cover their liberty, killed the crew of the veneel when the
ship was in the power of the negroes, they having ob-
tained their liberty by force.
The Earl of MALNIESBURY—They could not
manage the ship, and our vessel saved them.
Earl GREY—That was perfec ly right, but what he
thought ought to have been done should have been to
put hands on board, and take the ship to Sierra Leone.
The Earl of MALMESBURY—She was in Liberian

waters, and it could not be done.
Earl GREY—Neither the authorities of Liberia, nor
any one else, had a right to interfere with the possession
of the ship by the negroes, which they had de faeto and
de jure, and if we had sent her to any port they chose
to go to, no one could have had any right to object. He
hoped that poor Liberia would not be brought into the
quarrel. We were bound to give these negroes all the
assistance in our power, without inquiring into the
nationality of those who, by an act of piracy, had taken
possession of them.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said that the instructions
to our officers, unless they had been changed, were
drawn up under his superintendence ; and when they
were communicated to the'American Government they
were approved by Mr. Webster and the Government cf
the day ; and he believed that our officers were now
acting on those instructions. If that was the case, he
was at a loss to comprehend what were called British
outrages on American ships. We made no claim to
visit or to search any American vessel, slaver or other-
wise ; and it was only in cases where our cruisers had
well-founded suspicions that a vessel was not an Ameri-
can that they had a right to visit her. That rule was
laid down by his noble friend with perfect accuracy,
according to the instructions he (Lord Aberdeen) caused
to be drawn up under the direction of Sir George
Cockburn, Dr. Lushington, and others acquainted
with international law. They were then certainly
typroved by the American Government, and he did
not know what new circumstances had arisen to cause
difficulties in those waters. If our officers obeyed heir
instructions it %as iruporsible that there could he any
such difficulty, and he hoped he should not hear that
those instructions had been changed. They were suffi-
cient f,r tits purpose, the American Govtrnunent had no
injection to teem, and if they were only acted on with
caution there could be no difficulty. For when cur
cruisers had a suspicion that a vessel bearing the Ameri-
can flag was not an American, the officers were bound
to writs in the log what it was that caused that suspicion,
It was not from mere caprice that they would overhaul
a vessel bearing the American flag, but there must be
a reasonable suspicion that she was not a vessel of the
country whose flag she carried before they could venture
to visit, still less to search her. This was necessary, for,
in the first place, a vessel might hoist no flag at all, and
all you had to do was to ascertain what she was, and
if then she turned ont to be a pirate, you could deal with
her ; or if she was a Spanish vessel, or a vessel belong-
ing to a power with which you had a treaty, you could
deal with her. In the case of an American vessel, or a
vessel belonging to a power with which we had no treaty
we could not interfere in any manner ; even if she war
full of slaves she might go on her way and we could not
arrest her. That was the law of the case, and in which
the American Government had acquiesced. That being
the case, he was at a loss to understand what was meant
by British outrages in American waters. He agreed it
was desirable to limit the action of our squadron more
to the coast of Africa than has recently been the case,
rather
ehnadtemthlmaeel n:no
looking
directwhka
eihad h
dncgobvue
eteti hefiorn treated,
vh
etaotseptdhi
tthc
oao
fta sutnloef Cuba.th
conciliation
e i
in which
w
American
ss
whicahs
ynmotuchlieue inhan ged since he had to deal
bringing it to a satisfac-
tory conclusion. He would only say a word with regard
to an act which had been introduced by him, andwas
called by his name, but which he believed in Brazil was
called the Algerine Act. (Cheers and laughter.)
hter )
When he brought in that act he
assured
the Brazilian Government that nothing would
give him so much pleasure as when the day arrived when
be should move the repeal of that act. He was not sure
that the time had arrived yet, but he hoped and believed
that her Majesty's government, who must have more in-
formation on the subject, looked forward to the same
object, and that the conduct of Brazil entitled it to con-
sideration ; and be would only recommend to their care
the realisation of the hope which he had ventured to ex-

press.
The Earl of HARDWICICE said that with regard to
any change in the American government on this ques-
tion, it would seem that their feelings had become more
acute with respect to it. Our squadron bad approached
nearer to their coast, and it was not the custom in the
time of the noble earl (Aberdeen) for our cruisers to carry
on operations on the coast of Cuba. What was the cause
of the alteration in the system ho did not know. But
there had been an alteration ; and believing as he did
that the officers of our navy had acted with caution, and
at the same time with activity and zeal, yet it %vacf po!,-
Bible that they might have overstepped the line which
the noble earl opposite desired to see kept, and it might
turn out that we were not without some blame in the
matter. Great indignation had been expressed by several
noble lords that the whole course of the policy of this
country, which was to bring about an amelioration of
the condition of the African negroes, and for which roe
had used such exertions, should have been turned aside;
a,ered ja.t at the time when we believed that was the
grea
thrown ag n(a. rdt
st
diminution in tee export of .-laves, and the
Afritc::
„%mprov.ement in the cultivation of the soil in
should have been arrested and over-
to art •
lt
enagch other with a view to slave•hunting
the chiefs of that country induced suddenly
in order to sell n greee to those who required them. The

noble earl (Grey)had been very severe on the government
of France. There could be no doubt that on the coast of
Africa a process was carried on which stimulated the slave
trade, and which was aided and abetted the the officers
and ships of France. But he was bound to say that
the course pursued by the French Government
was strictly in accordance with the desire to their
lordships. It should be know and understood
that those unfortunate beings who were procured for the
purpose of becoming free labourers, on arriving on board
French ships received the kindest treatment. From
that time their manacles were struck off, and their
wages began from the time they came on board ; and,
except in a few instances, he learnt from papers which
he had seen that their condition was totally changed
from the moment they came into the hands of the French.
They were treated as hired labourers, and dealt with
not on the footing of slaves, but of free men. He men-
tiered this in order to do justice to the French govern
merit, and be knew that they had declared that if it was
proved that the proceeding was calculated to produce
such injurious results as had been stated, they were pre-
pared to deal with it, while steps bad been taken which
were calculated to meet the views of this country on
the subject.
The Earl of CLARENDON asked if the noble earl
bad any objection to lay en the table any papers which
showed what the treatment of the negroes in question
was on board ship. He bad beard with satisfaction,
but at the same time with surprise, the statement of the
noble earl ; for it was totally contrary to that which he
had previously heard ; fur it had been stated, that not
only at Liberia, hut at other places where French ships
stopped with negroes on board, some of them swam on
shore, and gave an account of the want of humanity
with which they had been treated.
The Earl of lIARDWICKE said, no doubt there
were great mistakes on the subject. As to the manner
in which these apprentices were treated from their cap
ture till they fell into the hands of the French, no doubt
there was the greatest cruelty shown to them, but their
treatment by the French was different from that of in-
human slavers. If his noble friend wished to sea the
papers, be would move for them.
The Earl of CLARENDONsaid he would move for the
papers. There must be some mistake in the statement of
the manner in which these slaves were-got. They were got
on the east and west coast of Africa. On the east coast
'hey were got by means of agents, but on the west coast
they were obtained in the same way as slaves were
usually obtained, that is by means of wars between dif-
ferent tribes, and by capture ; and they only question as
to whether they were to go to France or to Cuba was the
price given. The French had contracted with the King
of Dahomey to furnish negroes at forty dollars a head,
but be did not furnish them, because the Spanish agents
offered 80 dollars a bead. But as far as he had heard,
these people, when on board French ships, were not
treat-el in the manner described by his noble friend. It
was necessary that they should be treated in a particular
way in order to stow away a large number of persons in
an inadequate space ; for that reason they were mana-
cled, for that reason the hatches were closed and sentries
placed over them. All the evidence showed that there
was no difkr,:nce in their treatment and that of slaves in
ordinary cases. If these facts were true and were proved,
the French immigration of negroes was the slave trade
and nothing more, and in consequence of the represen-
tations of our Government there had been a change in
their treatment, it would be a great satisfaction it any
papers showing that were produced, and he would move
for hem.

The Earl of MALMESBURY thought that no public
interest would be served by the production of the papers.
They were nothing but a controversy which was going
o❑ between the two Governments as to the result of the
new French system of immigration of negroes. There
had been instances and places where no cruelty bad been
used, and where the negroes had been comparatively
well treated, and where not so many had been put on
hoard as in other ships. There was no doubt that
France bad produced instances showing that much dis-
cretion had been observed i❑ shipping the negroes and
taking care of them afterwards. (Hear.) But that did
not affect the main question, whether this could he said
to be anything but the slave trade. He could only re-
peat what his noble friend had said—that the French
Government had invariably declared what he believed
they intended—that they would not continue the system
if they found in practice that it was accompanied by the
evils anticipated.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY expressed bis
satisfaction with the noble earl's statement, and in-
quired whether the Government were is possession of
any papers ; and, if so, whether they would be pro
duced, showing whether or not the ship was captured in
the Liberian waters. He wished to knew whether any
correspondence had taken place with the French Govern-
ment in respect to the re-capture ; and, if so, whether
the noble lord would lay it before the house !
The Earl of MALMESBURY replied that they had
no information from any official person on the subject.
All the information they had was contained in a private
letter addressed by Mr. Chillingham to the Foreign-office.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY hoped some offi-
cial inquiry would be made as to what were the real cir-
cumstances of the case.
The subject then dropped.

THE OATHS BILLS.-ADMISSION OF JEWS
TO PARLIAMENT.

Lord DENMAN inquired what course it was pro-
posed to adopt with regard to the Lot ds' amendments
in the Oaths Bill, to which the Commons had disagreed
—whether it was intended to send the bill back to the
Commons with an intimation that their lordships in-
sisted upon their amendments ; or whether it was pro-
posed to wait until after their lordships's decision had
been taken upon the two bills introduced by Lord Lucan
and Lord Lyndhurst
The Earl of LIARDIVICKE replied that her Ma-
jesty's Government considered the question was one for
the house to deal with rather than themselves. So far
as they were concerned they were desirous that the bi 1
should go down to the Commons as soon as possible.
Lord REDESDALE held that the proper course was
to send the bill back to the Commons, from which any
proposition for a compromise ought to come, and that
neither of the other bills should be entertained until the
bill which had been already considered by both housos
was disposed of.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY thought it inex-
pedient to send back the bill with the reasons of their
lordships for adhering to their amendments until they
had considered the other two bills, and determined how
far they could adopt them.
The Earl of MALMESBURY considered the more
straightforward and dignified course was to intimate at
once to the Commons that their lordships could not con-
sent to abandon their amendments. There was nothing
to prevent their doing this, and taking the other two
bills afterwards. _ _ _

Earl GRANVILLE was of opinion that it would be
more convenient to deal with the question altogether,
and having determined what they would do with the two
bills which had been introduced to send bac't the other
bill to the Commons with the reasons for insisting upon
the amendments.

The LORD CHANCELLOR reminded their
_lord-
ships that they had by a large majority deterrninea not
to acquiesce in any measure for admitting Jews to Pa: -
!lament, and not to consent to any compromise ; bit if
after all theca was to be a compromise, it ought surely
proceed from the other house. The proper course was
to send back the bill with the reasons, and then if any
noble lord chose to bring for waid any measure by which
the difficulty might bo arranged, it would be competent
for him to do so.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY observed that
the comprotni-e had already been cffired in the two
bills which the two noble lords opposie had laid upon
the table. ("No.") Certainly the object cf those bills
was to settle this Ling-ccntested question—(hear, heat)
—and to send back the other bill to the Commons with
the reasons for adhering to the amendments, until they
had decided upon what should be done with the bills
which bad been initiated in their lordships' house for
settling the question, would scarcely be a convenient
curse.

Viscount DUNGANNON was opposed to any com-
promise in the matter, objecting upon principle to ad-
mitting Jews into Parliament.
The conversation then dropped, it being understood
that the bills referred to would be taken next week, as
already arranged.
Their lordships adjourned at half-plst 8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
MR. CONIMISSIONER IIA.RGREA.VE.
Sir E.,PERRY, seeing the Attorney-General for Ire-
land in his place, was anxious to put a question respect-
ing the Encumbered Estates Court Bill, which was
under discussion for some hours on Tuesday last, and
rospectiag which the house was precluded, by the late-
ness of the hour, from coming to a division. The ques-
tion he wished to put was, whether her Majesty's Go-
vernment had since considered the matter, and whether
they were still of opinion that it would not be expedient
to retain the services of Mr. Commissioner Hargreave in
the new court, instead of pensioning him off upon his
full salary.
Mr. WHITESIDE said that since the debate to which
the hon. and learned gentleman referred several learned
gentlemen had represented to him that the busines of the
new court would be very heavy, and had expressed a
desire that Mr. Hargreave should be retained. Under
these circumstances, and believing those statements to
be correct, he begged to say that, so far as he was able
to ascertain, it was the intention of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to consent to Mr. Reweave being retained
as a third judge. (Hear, hear.)
THE 100ret REGIMENT.
Mr. CONINGHAK moved for returns of the total
cost of levying the 100th Regiment of the line.
General PEEL assented, but it would be come time
before the returns couid be laid upon the table.
Tau returns were ordered accordingly.
SALE OF COMMISSIONS.
Lord BURGH LEY asked the Secretary of State for
War whether the Commander-in-Chief had the power t )
direct the sale on the public account of such commis-
sions in the army as are at present disposed of at the
Horse Guards without purchase ?
Gen. PEEL—In answer to my noble friend, I think
that the General Commanding-ie Chief has not the power
to direct the sale of any commissions without the sane
lion and authority of the Secretary of State for War.
THE NAVY—BREECH-LOADING RIFLES.
Mr. H. BERKELEY a-ked the First Lord of the
Admiralty whether, seeing that the marines and small
arms men of the American navy aro armed with breech-
loading rifles, by which each man can fire three times
for once from any opponent armed with tee old weapon
—whether any steps have been taken to place the naval
forces of Great Britain upon an eqeslity with those of
America ?
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he entirely concurred in
what he believed to be the spirit of the hon. gentleman's
question, namely that the marines and seamen of the
British navy ought to be armed in the moat effi Icient

mangier, and that any improvements adopted in other
countries should not be lost sight of in this. No breech-
loading rifles had as yet been given out to the British
navy, but trials of those weapons had been going on,
the result of which pointed to the expediency of some
modification. He could assure the hon. gentleman that
the subject would receive the attention it deserved.
DRAINAGE—IRELAND.

On the motion of Mr. CAIRO returns were ordered
showing, in separate sums, the remissions made by the
Treasury (461,973/. 124. 11d.), under the Act 16 and 17
Vic., c, 130, of moneys advanced for arttrial drainage
in Ireland to the 31st of Marcb, 1858 ; distinguishing
the localities to which such remissions have been made,
and the parties who were exempted from repayment ;
together with astatement of the specific grounds in each
case on which the Treasury exercised the power of re-
mission conferred by the act.
COUNTY COURTS.

On the motion of Sir J.TRELAWN EY returns were
orlered of the total estimated amount of the fee fund of
the county courts for the year 1857, also the total esti-
mated amount of the salaries of the registrars, and of
salaries and allowances to high bailiffs, respectively ;
also the names of displaced registrars, and the amount
of annuities by way cf compensation granted to each ;
also the names of persons to whom compensations under
the Act to and 10 Vic. c. 95, have been made, and the
amount of compensation paid to each of such persons ;
also the amount of expense for providing court-housce,
offices, stationary, and printing, on each of the county
court circuits, and the expense of offices in each district
court of each circuit.
THE INDIAN REHESOLUTIONS—BUSINESS OF
T HOUSE.

Mr. FITZROY brought up the report on the Indian
resolutions, which was agreed to.
Leave was given to bring i❑ a bill founded upon such
resolutions, and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
Lord STANLEY, and Mr. FITZROY wore ordered to bring
in the same.
Lord STANLEY, amidst much cheering, immediately
brobight in the bill entitled Government of India (No. 3)
Bill.
The bill was read a first time, and the second reading
fixed for Thursday evening next.
Sir J. GRAHAM asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer what the business would be to-morrow (this
evening)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that it wa, not the intention ef the Government to go
into committee of supply to-morrow (this) evening.
They would, in the first place, take the Funded Debt
Rill ; after that the Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill.
lie was given to understand that during his absence
some inquiry had been made rupecting the Galway
Disfranchisement Bill. Now, he should be very happy
to assist the hon. gentleman who had charge of that
bill by allowing him full time for its di-cussion at a❑
early period, and with that view he would endeavour to
bring that bill also on to-morrow (thi,.) evening.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the Funded Debt Mil would be the first order of the slay
to-morrow.
THE COMMISSIONERS FOR THE EXHIBITION
OF 1851 BILL.

On the order of the day for the second reading of this

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Royal Commissioners, finding themselves in possession
.f a large surplus fund Irons the Exhibition of 1851,
which they were bound by their charter to devote to the
encouragement of science and art, prepared a report on
the causes why such a sum was not at all equal to the
wealth of this c iuntry, and in that report they attributed
the amount of the surplus, only 250,000/. to the want
cf system, and the want of space for such exhibitions,
and stated their opinion that the want of system was due
to the want of space. This sum, therefore, was proposed
by the commissioners to be devoted to the purchase of
land, if the Government would consent to add an equal
sum to it for that purpose ; and accordingly a vote was
taken "'and a turn of 350,000/. was ultimately absorbed
in the purchase of land in the immediate neighbourhood
of Kensington. That course was taken with a view to
the public benefit, and under the direct sanction of
Parliament. That same year a committee of this house
reported against affording additional room for the recep-
tion of works of art on the present site of the National
Gallery ; and, therefore, a Royal Commission was issued
and reported very much against the present site, and in-
dicated the open spaces in the vicinity of Hyde-park,
which were sub'equently purchased as a desirable pthi-
tion for the National Gallery. About the Fame time,
1853, we added a new department to our public institu-
tions—namely, the department of Science and Art, and
en the application of the then Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, the schools were located in Marlborough-house,
at a merely nominal rent. When Marlborough-house
was afterwards wanted, those who administered the
Kensington estate allotted twelve acres for erecting a
temporary museum, the success of which has been so
eminent, that sicc3 its erection a greater number of
persons have visited it than have attended the British
:Museum. Frem that time, during the three or four
years which followed, although the course of Parlia-
ment had very much tended to delay, yet, on the whole,
there has been progress, though it was slow. Another
committee appointed to inquire into the National
Gallery reported against the present site, and pointed
out such conditions for the new site as clearly indicated
the space in the neighbourhood of Kensington. Another
Royal Commission which was issued reported in unison
with the other reports which I have already referred to.
Up to that time the general course and tendency of
Parliament had been to fulfil the wishes of the Royal
Commissioners as pointed out in their charter of 1852.
But in 1856 a very great change took place. An address
for a Royal Commission to inquire into the best site for
a national gallery was moved for by a noble lord who
always takes an active and distinguished part on quee-
tione of that kind, the noble lord the member for Redding-
tonehire (Lord Elcho.) (Hear.) At that time it was
clearly understood that the new National Gallery was
to be erected at Kensington-gore ; and a vote of 27,000/.
had been before that taken " for the erection of a new
National Gallery." The noble lord's motion was carried,
and a Royal Commission was issued. Whatever might
be the cause or the accident of that Parliamentary di-
N ision, as to which I am not now going to speculate,
certain it is that the decision arrived at by the Royal
Commissioners, after due inquiry and deliberation, was
against the erection of the new National Gallery at Ken•
sington, and against the removal of the National Gal-
lery from the present site. (Hear.) After that it became
necessary to consider the propriety of keeping the money
longer in the unsatisfactory state in which it had been
sunk for at least five years. The commissioners com-
plained that they were not allowed to carry out the ob-
jects for which they had been appointed under their
charter ; and they at length proposed a dissolution of the
barren partnership with the Government on the cendi-
tion of a mutual release from all conditions, in the hope
that out of their own unaided resources they might be
able to do what they coul(i. That, however, was a pro-
position which required the eerious considerwion of the
country. We felt, however, that the decision which this
house arrived at was conclusive against the removal of
the National Gallery from its present site. We know
that the Royal Commissioners had suffered from the state
of things which had existed ; and as we were unable to
hold out to them any expectation that we ghoul f take
any steps to reeler to the feelings and views of the Go-
vernment of 1852, we thought it best to accept their se-
cond proposition, if we would agree as to terms. The
terms which were offered to us were these. It was proposed
that the capital which had been expended by the Govern-
ment ehould be repaid by the Royal Commissioners, which
was about 177,500/., and that there should be added to
that amount the moiety of what had been received for
rents, raising it to the sum of about 182,000/. That is
the proposition now before the house, and the object of
the bill is to carry it out and dissolve the partnership
which now subsists between the Government and the
Royal Commissioners. S ,me remarks were made when
I mentioned the arrangement a short time since, which
it will be as well for me to notice ; at the same time there
was a general feeling in favour of a dissolution of the
partnership. It was said that interest ought to he paid
upon the money advanced by Government—(hear)--.—hut
I think that proposition cannot be fairly maintained.
The Royal Commissioners equally complain that their
capital has been lying idle during the whole of this pe-
riod, except to the limited extent in which the Govern-
ment will share, and I do not think there is any weight
in the objection. Another objection hag been that the
value of the laud has greatly increased since it was pur-
chased five years ago. There is no doubt that it has, and
it would certainly be a sign of decay of the metropo'is,
if not of the country, if the value had not increased. But
its value has increased as building land, and it is more
valuable to a speculative builder, who intends to cover it
with squares and crescents, than to the Royal Commis-
sioners, who are to hold it, in pursuance of their charter,
for purposes of art and science. Although the connection
between the Government and the Commissioners ceases,
they do not give up their original design of devoting the
land to such objects. It would therefore be ungenerous
to exact an increasedsum from the Royal Commissioners,
when we should thereby prevent the accomplishment of
those pubiin purposes which we ourselves have been the
cause of their not having been sooner accomplished. I
trust, therefore, that the house wilt agree in this view of
the case. Tee first clause of the bill proposes the general
arrangement I bare explained. The second section refers
to the plot of ground, about 121- acres, which has been
used by the Government for the erection of the museums
,and schools of art which were originally located at Msrl-
borough-house. The third clause proposes that such land
may be retained under certain conditions ; and the con-
dition which Government recommend the house to adopt
is, that so long as the land is kept by a public depart-
ment no rent should bo paid for it, but if we find it con-
venient for the public service so to do, we shall be
allowed to take it up for a certain sum, which the Go-
vernment shall fix, and which will he substracted from
the purchase money which the Royal Commissioners are
now about to return to the Government. I know the
house would like to have soma idea of the value of this
land, and I have ascertained that the sum to be paid
would be about 60,000/. This calculation has been made
upon the principle of not taking the land at an increased)
value, but according to the sum paid for the land origi-
nally. A sum of 14,0001. (in addition to 6,0001.. paid by
inp forming
r ivate
individuals)
roads,
a iwasarg expendedportion boyf
the
which C e
emp le; t uce; es
belongs peculiarly to this plot of land. In, addition
.to
this the Royal Commissioners have sexpenoed upon tee
Museum 5.000/. or 6,000/. beyond the amount voted by
Parliament ; and taking a.?I these things into censidera.
Lion, it has been thought that 60,000/. was a fair value
to be placed upon the land. Bat the Government, of
course, has a great check-, because the value is to be fixed
by the Treasury itself. I hope the Royal Coramimioners

freed from the trammels of the Government, will be able
to accomplish their original purpose ; and I am confident
that they are objects which, if accomplished, will tend
to advance the interests of art and science in this country.
Mr. BRISCOE was glad to hear from the right hon.
gentleman the statement that it was the intentiou of the ,
Government to retain the National Gallery in its present
situation. (The Chancellor of the Exchequer intimated
dissent.) He hoped he had not misunderstood the right
hon. gentleman, as he thought it was most important
that the gallery should not be removed to Kensington.
Mr. SPOONER said that he cheered the right hon.
gentleman when he made the announcement that the part-
nership between the Government and the Royal Commis-
sioners was about to terminate ; and when the right
hon. gentleman did him the honour to ask him if be
would consent to putting his name en the back of the
bid he willingly did so. But he now found that the bill
only partially dissolved the partnership and retained
some objectionable features. He objected to the Govern •
ment paying 60,0001. for this pieca of land, which he
thought ought to be paid by the Royal Commissioners.
He was not satisfied that the improvement of art and
science was a great national object ; and if it, conferred
any benefit on the working man, it was yet such a re-
mote one that he could not consent to the working man
being taxed to contribute when he had the greatest diffi-
culty in contributing to the necessary requirements of the
State. He should not oppose the second reading of the
bill, but in committee he should move that the clause
empowering the Government to purchase this land for
I 60,0001. should be struck out. It was certainly his in-
tention to move the omission of the clause in committee.
When the first grant of 150,0001. was made, it was sup•
posed that it would be anal, but two other grants had
been made since then. He (Mr. Spooner) always pro-
tested against the expenditure of public money for the
promotion of art and science. He contended that they
ought be supported by those who were immediately
benefitted by them. It was sometimes said that the pub-
lic cultivation of art tended to the benefit of trade; well,
then, let those who were interested in trade promote the
cultivation of art, and let not the expenses be thrown
upon the working man.
Mr. KINNAIRD observed that the right hon. gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the
purchase of the land had not been a satisfactory invest-
ment, but he (Mr. Kinnaird) bad been told that the land
had since doubled or trebled in value. He was also told
that the money was to be raised upon some portion of the
land, and the rest to be sold. He protested, however,
against the sale, and be hoped that in committee every
information would be afforded as to the question whe-
ther interest might not be paid to the Commissioners
and the land retained.
Mr. PALK protested against the opinion that money
was misapplied when devoted to the purposes of promot-
ing art and science. He believed the cflerts that had
been made to educate the poor in art and science had
been most beneficial, and had done much to remove the
slur which had been cast upon articles of English work-
manship, namely, that however good they might be in
price and quality, they were inferior in taste and design
to articles of the same nature made on the Continent.
He thought there ought to be more schools of art ; and
he should have been glad to hear of some arrangement
which might have collected together under one roof all
the best and most valuable articles of art in the country,
so as to be easily accessible to all classes of artisans. It
would be at once evident thatthe site of Trafalgar-square
would be too small for a building large enough to contain
all the collected art treasures of the kingdom ; and as for
the want of centralisation he thought that would be got
over by the railways, which must some day traverse
London from one end to the other. He trusted, how•
ever, that this bill would be discussed in committee in a
liberal and fair spirit.
Mr. ALCOCK said that if this partnership were to be
dissolved, a. he trusted it might be, be thought they ought
not to haggle about the price of the land. (Hear, hear.)
But he certainly thought that every penny of the money
paid by the Treasury ought to be reimbursed to them ;
and secondly, that if this partnership were dissolved, it
ought to he dins: Iced totally and entirely. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not doubt that is com-
mittee the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would explain the various items which had been objected
to in this vote. But be thought the hon. memberforNov h
Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) was mistaken in his view of
this bill. The land in question was purchased partly by a
grant from the public, and partly from the money col-
lected at the Exhibition of 1851. The hon, gentleman
surely did not expect that the R )yal Commissioners who
undertook that expenditure, who took the money and laid
it out in this purchase, should be obliged to give up the
land which had been purchased with this money. The
commissioners received this money, which they were con-
sidered to hold in trust, and they were now disposed to
raise the money and repay that which was owing to the
State, and taken from the State, and in the next place to
lay out such a sum as would enable them to pay for the
buildings erected, or to be erected, for the purposes of
science and art, as they might think useful. But the
commissioners could not do these things without dispos-
ing of a portion of the ground, and their purpose was to
use other parts of the land for public buildings. He
thought the proposition of the Chancelor of the Exche-
quer was a right and fair one. (Hear.)
Mr. J. LOCKE said the buildings would stand upon
ground purchased by the Royal Commissioners, and if
the partnership was to be dissolved, be thought the
buildings would have to go with the land. If he under-
stood the proposition, it was that 60,0001. should be set
apart by the commissioners, and to be repaid in diminu-
tion of the capital expended by the house. It that were
so, instead of get'ing interest on their capital, they
would not get back the capital itself. He thought they
khould not have any further connection with the land.
The Royal Commissioners had improved the land, and
now that the partnership was to be dissolved, they would
be entitled to the whole value of it, and also the build-
ings upon it, and in his opinion it would be well to let
the commi-sioners take those buildings off their hands.
The project was that of the commissioners, and not that
of the State. He had divided against the expenditure of
this public money, and he should now call for an entire
dissolution. (Hear.)
Mr. DRUMMOND said whenever they discussed the
subject of buildings for national purposes, be always
found great confusion in the minds of hon. members as
to the objects for which they were required. Hon. mem-
bers coupled together two things, which were wholly
dissimilar—science and art. (Laughter.) In science
everything was capable of demonstration, but in art
nothing was capable of demonstration. In science the
country had a direct interest--take, for instance, the
Geological Museum in Piccadilly, which was the beet
school of mines in the country ; but had that to do with
art This confusion caused groat mischief amongst
those people who got a sort of reputation for understand-
ing art, though that reputation generally did not last
long. They ought to keep art and ecience separate, for
the two things were wholly dissimilar.
Mr. CONINGHAM thought this would he simply a
dissolution of partnership in name, so long as there re-
mained any partnership in the buildings. He would
remind the house that the Sheepshanks collection was
at Kensington, and it was a sort of auxiliary to the
National Collection. He confsseed that he always
viewed proceedings with regard to this matter with the
greatest suspicion. As to the Notional Gallery remain-
ing in Trafalgar-square, he felt quite eatisfied, but lie
should divide against the clause which in any way con-
tinued the objectionable partnership between the com-
missionere and the State.
Mr. ADDERLEY wished to remind the house that
the Royal Commissioners were constituted in 1851, long
subsequent to the date when the partnership between
,cienco and art was commenced. The money now to be
repaid was advanced by the Government to enable the
commissioners to purchase the- property, and the part-
nership then commenced might bo dissolved, although
the Government would retain a portion of the land for
national purposes. It would be impossible to hand over
everything to the commissioners. The schools esta•
blished by the Government had greatly benefited the
I nation, and trade had been promoted. He would remind
the house that this debate was departing from the rules
of the house ; and a discussion on this subject would be
much more regular when he brought before the house
the condition of 'his branch of education.

Lord ELCHO said be merely rose to say that he
thought the Government hld come to a wise decision in
not removing the National Gallery from Trafalgar-
souare ; it was desirable that the house should clearly
understand the Eutject before they gave up their power
of retaining this site, which might be useful for national
purposes._

Mr. COWPER thought they could not give up the
schools which were established in 1839, and which had
been extended over the country. if they gave up these
buildings they could have to find others for these schools,
and it should be remembered that Mr. Sheepshanks
gave his collection to the country on condition that
it should be deposited at Kensington. To remove
that collec ion would be a breach of trust. He
thought that this department had afforded a most valua-
ble stimulus to our domestic manufactures, particularly
in respect to ornamental designs, in which this country
had hitherto been very much behind ; at the present
time, however, so much progress bad been made in this
respect that persons who had the direction of the art
schools in France had signified their intention of copy-
ing some portions of our system which they considered
better than their own. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. W. EWART thought it highly gratifying that
the central school of art which had been established now
extended its ramifications throughout the country.
Mr. AYRTON said that in the selection of the present
site for the museum—namely, Kensington—the labour-
ing classes, for whose benefit it professed to have been
established, had in no way been consulted. Those per-
sons lived at the east end of London, and he thought it
ahsurb to place the museum at Kensington. He con-
tended that it ought to be got rid of altogether, with a
view of establishing it in a more central part of the
metropali.,, so as that it might be within reasonable dis-
tance of those who devoted their lives to the pursuits
which the institution was specially intended to foster.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERESFORD-HOPE expressed his concurrence
in the observations of the hon. member for the Tower
Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton); but until some other and, for
the working classes, more convenient museum was found,
the collections of art had better be kept at ]3rompton.
Mr. WILSON said that the bill would in no way
prevent the House cf Commons from deciding at a
future period for the removal of the collection now at
Kensington to any other locality—(hear, bear)
merely provided for the ultimate and permanent sstte-
rnent of the partnership, but it was necessary that the
i
House of Commons should retain an interest n the land,
or they would sacrifice to the Commissisners of the
Royal Exl,ibition all that they lead already expended on
the hu ldinge.
After a few word frnn Mr. A. SMITH,
Mr. F. CROSSLEY said it had been stated tl at
trade and manufactures were very much indebted to
those schools for designs. As a person who bad con-
siderable experience in that matter, he could say they

were perfectly useless. The pupils when asked to pro.
duce designs were perfectly at sea. As usual, the
Government made the worst hand of anything which
they undertook. It would be better to leave manufac-
turers to themselves, and save the country this mere
loss of money laid out on men on high salaries to teach
these school.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured
the house that there was no connection between the
Royal Commissioners and these schools of design. He
was responsible for the arrangement on which this bill
had been founded. The commissioners, of course, were
quite willing to give up all the money ; but then
they would have required the Government to give
up all the land, and to find museum, and galleries, and
schools for the Sheepshanks and other collections, and
that the Government were not in a position to do.
That, therefore, was the reason why he had introduced
the second clause into the bill. The sum which had
been mentioned was as near as possible the original price
paid for the building. Notwithstanding the passing of
this bill, the commissioners would still continue to carry
into effect the purposes for which they had been consti-
tuted. There would be ornamental grounds and gardens
equal in extent to the enclosed part ci St. James's-park,
and there would be museums and galleries ; but all that
would now be done by private resources, and would, to
some extent, be self-supporting.
The bill was then read a second time.
THE JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACTS
AMENDMENT BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill.
On clause 7,
Mr. WILSON inquired what the operation of this
bill was intended to be with reference to the existing
state of the law I
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said the legi,lation of
this country on the winding-up ac's, with regard to joint-
stock companies, was by no means in a creditable state.
A number of acts had been passed for that purpose,
and they were not altogether consistent one with
another ; but although they were introducing a bill this
year to meet existing exigencies, he yet hoped that next
year they would sweep one and all of them away, and
introduce a general act, in which the public might obtain
all the information requisite on the subject. (Hear.)
In the Act of 1856 certain clauses were inserted to ec-
able companies when in difficulty to wind up their affairs
by voluntary act. So far as the shareholders were con-
cerned, that was very convenient. But then a difficulty
arose, fur a creditor might net be content with such a
proceeding, and he might desire to come into Chancery
and have it made compulsory, and that he could do. To
remedy that difficulty the Act of 1857 was passed, and
section 19 of that act provided that where there bad been
an incipient voluntary winding-up, and afterwards a
creditor should come before the Court to have a com-
pulsory winding-up, the Court should be enabled, if the
proceedings theretofore had been fair and jest to all par-
ties, to assume these proceedings instead of superseding
them for the advantage of the creditor. But the clause
was so meagre and so destitute of those provisions and
that machinery requisite for giving it eff ct that much
difficulty had beeen found in carrying it out.
Sir R. BETHELL pointed out the necessity of more
comprehensive legislAtior, instead of dealing with it by
piecemeal. There was complete antagonism in the law
between compulsory and voluntary winding up, and he
thought it was a state of things which ought to be put
an end to. He should not oppose the clause.
Toe clause was then agreed to, as were also clauses 8
to 16, inclusive.
Upon clause 19,
Mr. AYRTON, referring to the great expense which
bad attended the British Bank prosecutions, thought it
was a most unwise provision that the expensive ma-
chinery of putting the Attorney-General in motion, to
conduct the prosecutions under the act, should be re-
sorted to.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said there was a double
check—first, the discretion of the Court; secondly, the
discretion of the Attorney-General.
Mr. AYRTON said his objection was that the prosecu-
tion ought to be instituted in the same way as in the case of
perjury in a court of law, when the judge ordered a pro-
secution, which was carried on in the ordinary way.
The clause was then agreed to.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said in case of a com-
pulsory winding up the Court would be able to ascertain
by the bill whether the case was one fit for a public pro-
secution. But in a private winding up there would be
only the private liquidator, aho was the agent of the
shareholders. The discretion which they could not trust
to private individuals, they might safely entrust to the
Court.
Mr. MALINS said the explanation of his learned
friend did not appear to him satisfactory. Liquidators
ought not to have the power of rushing into prosecutions
at the expense of the unfortunate shareholders. The
cumbrous expense and trouble they were obliged to re-
sort to in the case of the British Bank, in which
10,0001. were spent, was a disgrace to the administra-
tion of justice. There ought to be some simple mode of
procedure.
Sir R. BETHELL observed that the prosecution of
the British Bank directors was instituted under the old
state of the law. Every step was taken under the con•
currence of a most eminent member of the present Go-
vernment, and every step was taken to ensure the con-
viction of the offenders. He thought the prosecution
ought only to be instituted with the consent of the
Court. (Hear, hear )
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE thought liquidators ought
not to have the power of instituting prosecutions against
delinquent directors, for a colourable prosecution might
be got up and the guilty parties might escape. Neither
did he think that the expense should be paid out of the
funds of the company. He thought it would be ai well
if the clause were omitted.
Mr. ADAMS did not think such prosecutions ought
to be instituted without the consent of the Court.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL would propose in the
next stage of the bill that it should be lawful for the
Court to direct the liquidators to carry on a prosecu-
tion in the same manner as •a commissioner under the
Bankruptcy Act.
On clause 21, •
Sir R. BETHELL suggested that this clause should
be withdrawn.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, after Explaining the
object of the clause, consented to its withdrawal.
The other clauses of the bill then passed through com-
mittee, and the house resumed.
WILLS, &c., OF BRITISH SUBJECTS ABROAD