The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-07 00:00:00

For the clause
Against it ,
Majority for the clauso —lO6

152
. 46

Lord PALMEIISTON then rose to move the follow-
ing clause—" That so much of this act as relates to the
nomination, election, duration of service, salaries, and
retired allowances of the councillors shall not continue
in force longer than for five years from the Ist of
August, 1558." The noble lord said that the council as
at present proposed to be constituted was, in hie
opinion, a continuation of the double government. A
maxim of one of the political writers of Italy stated that
when it was desired to maintain things as much like
what they were as possible their name should be
changed. (Laughter.) That was what her Majesty's
government were about to do in the case of the Indian
administration. He had no objection to the greater
number of the councillors being chosen from amongst
the directors of the East India Company, who were men
of experience in ludian affairs ; but he saw no good rea-
son why the salary of the gentlemen so to be chosen was
to be raised from 5001. to 1,5001. a-year, when their
duties were not to be so onerous as they had hitherto
been. Again, the East India directors held office for
the limited period of six years, subject to re-election aft- r
that time. They were liable to retirement into private
life without any pension. The councillors under the
new bill were to hold office for life, with a liability to
retire after a certain period on a pension of 5001. a-year.
Teese councillors would not have to decide anything ;
the cabinet minister would be the party to decide. The
councillors would have no responsibility, whereas the
directors were responsible to their constituents. There
was little doubt that within two years' time a great deal
of the detail business that was at present sent home from
India to be transacted in this country would be done on
the spot, so that the duties of the councillors would be
growing less important. He was quite confident that 15
was too large a number of councillors. When
his government were framing their bill they
were of opinion that six would be sufficient, but
made the number up to eight in deference to the
opinions of others. Indeed, he thought that the
tendency of the noble lord's (Lord Stanley's) mind was in
the same direction ; and he likewise was of opinion that
15 would be found too many. He (Lord Palmerston)
did not, in the clause which be now proposed, ask the
house to interfere with its former decision in respect of
the council. His object was to enable Parliament to
deal with the council at a future time without being met
with the question of " vested interest," or that of " par-
liamentary title ;" and under these circumstances he
thought the Government ought to consent to the inser-
tion of the cause. (Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY said that, though the noble lord
who had just addressed them had stated that he did not
wish to put the house under the necessity of reconsider.
ing the question which they had already decided, he
(Lord Palmerston) advocated the insertion of his clause
on the ground that it would give the house an oppor-
tunity of reconsidering that question within a ':,limited
time. (Hear.) He objected to the plan which the noble
lord proposed for giving Parliament an opportunity of
considering the subject, and he did so because Parlia-
ment had an opportunity of considering it, not in five
years, but at the very earliest period at which it or any
other portion of the measure now under discussion should
prove inconvenient in practice, if any part of the bill
should turn out to be so. (sear.) The noble lord
spoke of keeping the door open for a reconsideration.
Why, the door was open—(bear, hear)—but the noble
lord seemed to wish to pat Parliament under the neces-
sity of reconsidering the question, and to that he (Lord
Stanley) thought there was great objection. (Hear,
hear.) He thought there was a great objection to fixing
any definite period at which any particular measure
must be dealt with. He remembered to have heard
great complaints that the subject of the Bank Charter
was obliged to be brought under discuseiotti at a parti-
cular time, no matter how important might be the other
measures which that discussion would interfere with.
Five years ago, when the Government of which the noble
lord was a member brought forward a measure which
it was proposed should be reconsidered in 10 years, the
feeling of the truce was manifested against that proposed
reconsideration. There might be at such a period events
of public moment—there might be a reform bill ; there
might be great questions of organic change; there might
be nut jects absorbing the whole public attention; there
might be war imminent or actual; and any or all of these
cirourwtancee might prevent their giving that attention
to the topic it deserved. The noble lord had said lie was
afraid that vested interests would be created under this
bill, and that, therefore, Parliament would be compelled
to pay heavy c impensation if it proposed to diminish
the numbsr of the Council or to diminish the amount bf
their salaries; but if the noble lord would look at the
last paragraph of clause 14, he would find it was pro-
vided that if at any time hereafter it should appear ex-
pedient to Parliament to reduce or alter the constitution
of the Comic 1, no member of the Council who had not
served 10 years should be entitled to compensation. The
noble lord then went on to find fault with the provisions
of the amendment. He said, " You would continue the
double government and leave nothing but the same ma-
chinery that existed before." At the beginning of the
year the noble lord had delivered an interesting speech
on this subject, in which he dwelt with force on the in-
convenience and delay and the complexity that was
caused to ordinary business from the existence of the
two offices, and from the sending to and fro despatches
one to another, hut under the present bill this would not
be the case. The administration of India would be
directly under the Cro n; great facilities were provided
for placing the army on a different footing, and steps
had been taken without which measures of subsequent
reform would be far more difficult of accomplishment.
The noble lord had objected to the number of the Coun-
cil, and said that the number 15 on committees of the
H ae of Gerninons was not found to work well. But
was that the experience of the house? Was it not rather
the ca.., that the house utuelly adopted that numbs as
being not too large for practical business ? In point of
fact, the greater pat t of the work to be done by the Counml
would be done by smallcsmtnitteee, and nit by the whole
collective body. The noble lord i.aid he thought the
members of the Government would look forward to the
time when a reduction in the numbers of the council
would be desirable, and they had been told that by adopt-
ing the proposed different mode of carrying on the hu-i-
-nese of India, they would pr ibribly diminish the work of
the Government, at home. That wee a question on which
he would pronounce no opinion, either one way or the
other. It it turned out that the amount of work to be
transacted at horns would ho diminished, then it would
become a question whether the number of the council
should not be diminished ; although he might mention
that they did not look on these members of council, like
so many clerks, to go through a number of despatches,
but they were wanted for the experience they could bring
and the advice they would give—for the general admi-
nistrative capability they e could Live to the Government,
and not merely with reference to the amount of manual
labour. He never denied that it might be possible here-
after to reduce them. Remembering how they were at
this moment aetiog on conjecture—remembering the diffi-
culty of the experiment to be tried—a Minister might not
be ashamed to some down to the house, and say that the
facts of the case had differed from his original anticipa-
tion. (Hear.) He did not think there would be any diffi-
culty in a Minister taking such a course, but he did object
to condemn by anticipation a plan which the house had
fully sanctioned. (Hear.) If the noble lord thought so
badly of it, it was not a question whether it should last
five years, but whether it should be passed into a law at
all ; and if that were his opinion, he would have an
opportunity on the third reading of the bill, which was
not very distant, to ascertain whether that would be
the opinion of the house. (Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT intended to support the proposal of the
noble lord the member for Tiverton, and indeed the noble
lord the Minister for India had furnished a very strong
argument in its favour whoa he reminded the house that
the work they were engaged on was very much founded
cot conjecture. Well, they all knew that, but it was just
precisely for that reason that Parliament should retain
the power recommended by the noble viscount. But besides
that, it must be remembered that the measure had been
passed by a party which had only made up its mind, upon
compulsion, to legielate at all for India. (Hear.) There
were, therefore, strong reasons for doubting whether the
bill was likely to promote the future good government of
that country. If another Indian convulsion should not
come about before that time, it was not wholly impossible
that the same complaints against the government of India
might he heard in 15 years to come. He thought, there-
fore, it would he a very wise precaution for Parliament to
retain the power of revising the bill. (Hear.)
Mr. MACAULAY regarded the proposal of the noble
lord as wholly inconsistent with the provisions of the bill
already sanctioned.
Mr. SMITH said that the objection just urged by his
hon. friend would equally apply to any other alterations
they might make in the bill. He thought there was great
force in the remarks of his noble friend in reference to the
constitution of the proposed committee, and he must say
that nothing in his opinion could be more extraordinary
than the course taken by Government in reference to it.
Mr. WHITESIDE thought that the proposal of the
noble lord, as well as the t ine of the right hon. gentleman
was not very complimentary to the house, which had
shown the greatest iuduetry in framing the bill as it now
stood. Gentlemen of the largest experience connected with
India had again and again declared that the number of 15
was necessitated by the requirements of the council, and
that such a number was not one too many. The noble
lore's proposal was in effect to provide that at the end of five
years the whole fabric which they had taken such pains to
erect should crumble into dust. That, undoubtedly, would
be the result of the noble lord's proposal, although it was
ushered in by a speech at total variance with any such
conclusion. No doubt the argument of the hon. member
for Birmingham was quite consistent, but then the hon.
gentleman was eppoeed to the existence of a council
at all. He called upon the house to reject the proposal of
the noble lord, and thus show themselves unwilling to

prognosticate disaster for a scheme which they had taken
such pains to frame. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MELLOR thought the proposal of the noble lord
was calculattil to work beneficially for the country, and
therefore he should anoport it.
Mr. A. KENNARD likewise regarded the suggestion of
the noble lord with favour, as he thought the question of
the government of India could not be raised too often in
Parliament, if they desired the benefit of that country.,
Mr. AYRTON regarded the present as the most nis-
chievone of all the many proposals which the noble viscount
had urged with reference to India. (Rear, hear, from the
Government benches.) Ho should have thought the u able
lord ought to have remained satisfied with the divisions
which he had already taken with regard to the bill, and
have felt that his views with regard to India were, distaste-
ful to the house. One fatal objection to the proposal now
brought forward was, that it would make the co until de-
pendent upon the good opinions of the Government of the
day.
Mr. DUNLOP welcomed the noble lord's motion, which
compelled the house to re-consider this question.
The ATTORNEY-GEZTIA.:II.A.L said the effect of the
clause would be that they should reconstruct the
council at the end of five years, but that after that period
the e midi would cease, and the whole of the power would
be rested in the hands of the Secretars7 of State. The mea-
sure which the hon. member for Birmirelham had. through-
out consi-tently supported would come to Dees. The noble
lord had at first a Ivocated a council of eight, who would
be mere ciphers, and now ho wont two step. further and
wished that after five years the whole power would vest
in the Secretary of State. The hon. member for Perth
said it, was very difficult to get the attention of the ifooso
of Commons to Indian questions, and that it was now only
because the Indian revolt had forced their attention to the
subject that a bill was able to be carried. But that weL•t
against his own theory, because in five years hence there
would probably be no such emergency to force attention to
the subject, and the effect of his proposition would be that
Parliament would have to remodel the Indian Government
at a time when he could have no guarantee that they
would not be in the very state of mind which he depre-
cated. What would be most calculated to paralyse the
powers and exertions of the council, would be to tell them
that they were only to last for five years.
Mr. WILSON said the hon. and learned gentleman was
mistaken. The Secretary of State had no power under the
bill except in council; and if the council lapsed the power,
the Secretary of State would lapse too. The effect of the
bill would be, that it would be incumbent on Parliament
to reconsider the whole question. That would only be
what had been done in all India bills, which were inva•
riably for limited periods. The great difference between
the two bills of the Government showed how unsettled the
question was; and the debates showed the lack of infor-
mation on the subject. These were strong reasons for
supporting the amendment.
Mr. G. H. VANSITTART felt convinced that nothing
would be gained by adopting the proposition of the noble
lord. If it was held but that the council should only en-
dure for five years it was impossible that our Indian policy
could be placed on a firm basis. Such an arrangement
would load to much doubt and confusion.
Mr. DARBY GRLFEITHS said he thought they ought
to have an opportunity of revising the measure at a definite
period, and he thought it most reasonable to adopt the
period proposed by the noble iOrd•
Mr. ADAMS thought the no,Ne lord could hardly be
serious in desiring to see this chilies') become a portion of
the bill. The bill was framed with a view to members
being appointed for life, or during good behaviour, and the
noble lord now proposed that the council should only last
for five years. They would never get the right sort of men
to accept office under such circumstances. Without per-
manency, how could they expect the people of India to
have any confidence in the Government ? Again, the pro-
position would destroy the independence of the council, by
making them dependent on whoever might be Minister at
the end of the five years ; and if they were place seekers
they would for the latter part of the term strive to gain
his favour. These were reasons why the salary of the
directors should not be the measure of that of the ,coun-
cillors. The directors had themselves a pecuniary inte,"est
in the prosperity of the company, and were not bound to
give all their time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that at
tko end of the five years, if the amendment were carried,
the whole of the power would be in the hands of the Secre-
tary of State. The hon. member for Devonport had said
that the whole of the powers ,of the Secretary of State
could only be exercised in council. But the object of the
amendment was to abrogate only so much of the bill as re-
ferred to the council, and as the bill transferred all the
powers of the company to the Crown, the effect would be
to leave the absolute and irreponsible power in the hands
of the Secretary of State. It would be perfectly regular
and straightforward if the noble lord had on the third read-
ing asked the house to reject the bill ; but the course taken
by the noble lord was to ask them at this stage to so modify
the bill as to transfer an arbitrary power to the Crown,
thereby abrogating all they had hitherto decided on. The
house would pause before agreeing to such a proposal after
all 'heir labours. He had thought the original proposal ono
to be regarded with suspicion as leaving too great control
of patronage to the secretary, but even that provided a
parliamentary control. But this proposal would place the
Government of India beyond the control or cognisance of
Parliament, and undoing all their work would leave only
a Caput mortuum. The noble lord could surely not have
contemplated that result, but that would certainly be the
effect of the amendment. He deprecated the rediscussion
of the principle at a stage which should only relate to
detail. _ _

Lord PALMERSTON said the speeches from the Trea-
sury benches, to judge from the altered appearance of the
seats behind him, had, like the! resolutions, answered
their purposes. (Laughter.) There were two ways in
which the propositions he had made were met by the Go-
vernment. One was that which was adopted when there
was no answer. He was then met with silence ; without
attempting argument, Government met him by going to a
division. The other mode was more complimentary. It
was to totally, fundamentally, and entirely misrepresent
his proposition, and answer not what he proposed, but
something totally, fundamentally,' and entirely different.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the clause
would have the effect of handing over the whole govern-
ment of India, without any check, to the Secretary of
State, because it would make to cease the existence and

functions of the council. But on the contrary he pur-
posely and studiously avoided saying that the council
should cease. The part of the bill which constituted the
couneil-and compelled the secretary to act in conjunction
with it, would continue untouched, but the clause would
put an end to their salaries and to the number. As to the
mode of appointment, the alteration would only apply to
any vacancies which might arise after the five years. The
only effect of the clause would be, that they would be
compelled to reconsider the number and salaries. That
wont', of course, involve the reconsideration of the whole
arrangement, but that was the merit of the clause. It
would not put an end to the council, or hand over the
government to the Secretary of State, as had been al-
leged.
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For Lord Palmorston's clause
Against it .
Majority for Government --34
The announcement of the numbers was received with
loud cheers.

Mr. D. SEYAIOUR moved the following clause:—
" Whereas it is expedient that COMO offices hitherto ex-
clusively filled by members of the civil service should be
thrown open to other qualified persons, the 56th and
57th section of the act 33d George 111., c. 52, are
hereby repealed." The repeal of these clauses was approved
of by several persons in India of the highest authority and
position in the civil service. The effect of the clauses had
been to debar the company availing themselves of a great
deal of talent in India, and the repeal of them would not
only allay any irritation that might exist between the civil
and non-civil servants in India, but would increase the
efficiency of the administration. The hon. gentleman con-
cluded by moving the clause.
Lord STANLEY said the hon. gentleman had opened
a wide subject, which by his proviso was treated in a most
summary and sweeping manner. He (Lord Stanley) had
not had an opportunity of inquiring into the relations be-
tween the uncovenanted and the civil service, but it seemed
to him that his proviso would sweep away all the privi-
leges which had been enjoyed by the covenanted civil ser-
vice during the last 70 years. He thought that the recoil)-
. mendations of the lion. member would breake up the whole
framework of society in India, and would have a greater
effect upon the internal government of that country than
probably many hon. members anticipated. Tho subject
should engage the attention of the Government, but he
hoped the house would not at present pledge itself to aoy
positive course on the subject.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE thought it would be dangerous
for the house to pledge itself to any direct course upon this
point at present.
Mr. W. YANSITTART called attention to the state of
a
the Indian army, towards the reorganisation of which he
regretted no step ha.l been tkaen.
Mr. 1). SEYMOUR withdrew his clause.
Mr. GREGSON moved the following mfi;calaacricsa, L:tb :—"That
h
the settlements of Penang,
and Sarawak, be placed under the President of the Coun-
cil of India."
Mr. FITZROY objected to the proposition, which ho
thought could not stand in the form of a clause.
The SPEAKER confirmed this view of the case, and the
clause fell to the ground.
Lord STANLEY moved the following proviso : —" That
if By person being or having been such director, and
elected or appointed as aforesaid, shall refuse to accept the
office, it -shall be lawful for her Majesty, by warrant under
her royal sign manual, to appoint in the place of every
director so refusing, some other person to be a member of
the council, but so that nine members of the council at the
least shall be persons qualified as hereinafter mentioned."
The proviso was agreed to.

Sir E. PERRY moved in clause 10, after "behaviour,"
to insert, "and shall not, so long as ho remain such
councillor, accept, hold, or carry ou any other office or
situation, or any other profession or employment from
which any gain or profit shall be derived."
Lord STANLEY said the clause had been discussed over
and over again, and there could be no mistake as to the
nature of the duty of the councillors. They would have
to give up as much time as was necessary for the perform-
ance ofjtheir duties, and further than that the Government
was not disposed to impose further restrictions upon thorn.
Sir C. FORTESCUE said there was a restriction im-
posed on members of the Court of Directors, namely, that
they should not be engaged in any other way or trade with
India. He thought that restriction might be imposed on
members of the now council. . .

The amendment was negatived without a division.
Lord STANLEY moved on clause 13 to leave out " with-
out the consent in writing of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer," and insert " except by a similar order in council, to
ha laid in like manner before both houses of Parliament."
The amendment was agreed to.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved to leave out clauses 27 and
28, relating to the secret committee. The noble lord
strongly objected to the unreserved power which it was
proposed to delegate to the Minister as to acting on his
now responsibility, and with respect to calling in the ser-
vices of the seer .t minister. The present President of
the Board of Control was as objectionable, as his successor
might be objectionable—(hear, hear, and a laugh)
and although the former might exercise the power with
advantage, the Minister who succeeded him might act in a
different spirit. The noble lord concluded by moving the
omission of the clauses.
Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the 27th clause referred, not to the general mode of con-
sulting the council, brit to the circumstances in which the
Minister would be compelled to act without delay. He did
not think it wise to define the limits of the secrecy pro-
posed by the clauses. Was it probable that in the state of
society in which we lived that, the Minister would abuse
the power entrusted to him ? He thought that the proba-
bilities were entirely opposed to that contingency. The
object of the bill was mainly to establish the responsibility
of the Minister. It was not contended that there should
be no Fleet ecy; but he was not preparail to arue that there
should be no limit. The danger arose that by attempting
to define a limit the efficiency of the Minister iu a given
emergency might be impaired. The itq,cn6ibility

the Minister to the house was not denied, and he hoped
the house would pause before they assented to the course
proposed by the neblo lord. He was sure that the nobli
lord had not made this suggestion in any spirit of hostilill
to the bill ; indeed, the nutle lord, like many other mem'
hers, had shown that iu discussing a great question like
this they could sink any party feelings in a sense of pug,
duty. (Hear, hear.) But believing that this was a power
which ought. to be exercised by the Minister, he hoped the
clauses would be retained.

Sir J. GRAHAM said he was actuated by no hostilitylo
the bill. On the contrary, he had on many occasions during
the discussion voted in favour of its provisions. During the
government of the late Sir R. Peel the question arose in the
Coma. of Directors whether the Governor-General should
be recalled. The matter was under debate by 21 directors
for two months, and the secrecy of their deliberations we'
maintained by them—the Board of Control being the
body which had divulged the secret. Arguing from
the past, he believed that the Affghan war was the fore'
runner of many of our disasters in India, and that if the
policy of that war had been debated in the Court of Dirac.
toes, a wiser course would have prevailed, and the wet
would no.;; have been undertaken. So with respect to the
Persian war. He was, therefore, opposed to delegatinB
this Jai ge discretionary power of secrecy to the Minister,
and should vote for the excision of the clauses. The coo.
cil, he felt convinced, would be worthy of the confidence
of the Minister, who, in a case of emergency, could impose
secrecy on them. Cases requiring secrecy would, he be'
lieved, be very rare.
Sir G. C. LEWIS recommended the house to adhere
the clause in the bill establishing the powers of the secret
eommittee, and expunge the clauses us now suggested 14
the noble lord the member for London.
Mr. MANGLES said he bad had very recent experience
in this matter, as a member of the secret committee.
Strange as it might seem, it was a fact that the whole con'
quest of Scinde was conducted in the secret committee,
and the affairs of the province for many years administered
in that department. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. baronet
the Liember for Carlisle had rather understated the case
with regard to the manner i❑ which the Court of Director!
had 1-et, t the secret with regard to the recall of Lord Ellen
borough. Pending that transaction, six members had re'
tired by :rotation—so that thirty members in all had faith'
fully kept the secret. (Hear.)
After a few words from thelSoLicrron-GENERAL,
Lord PALMERSTON said the house was asked to ewe'
as to India thrat which ought not to be enacted with re'
Bard to any other portion of her Majesty's dominions. Thl
Cabinet under this bill are reTonsible for the government
of India; and it would be contrary to the spirit of tie,
British constitution that they should necessarily call into
their confidence the members of the council. The propose:
was one which introduced a totally new principle into the
working of our administrative end constitutional system.
The house then divided on the 27th clause--
For the clause
Against
Majority
Mr. T. G. BARING moved to leave out " in the ea
gineers and in the Artillery," and Insert " in the Militarl
College at Addiscombe."
Lord STANLEY objected to the amendment.
After a few words from Col. SMIS,
The amendment was withdrawn, and the clause wee
agreed to.
The bill, as amended, was then agreed to, and ordered
to be read a third time on Thursday.
UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Lord ELCHO tendered his best thanks to the Lord'
Advocate for this excellent measure. _

Mr. DUNLOP concurred in opinion With the noble lord
Col. SYKES, amidst loud cries of "Divide," gave
qualified assent to the bill. He objected to the junction*
the colleges of Aberdeen.

The bill WaM then read a third time and passed.
CIVIL BILLS, Sc. (IRELAND), AMENDMENT MD
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Sergeant DEA.SY hoped the bill would not be pro'
ceeded with at that late hour.
The motion was then withdrawn, and the second read
ing fixed for Thursday.
The Titles to Laud (Scotland) Bill passed through cony
mittee.

JURIES (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL.
me ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND with'
drew this bill.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD withdrew his bill, which 10
of a similar character.
The Wills, &c., of British Subjects Abroad was read
third time and passed.
The Copyright of Designs Bill was read a third time al:0
passed.
The Stipendiary Magistrates, &0., Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The Police (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill poled
through committee.
The Lunatics (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill passoi
through committee.
The County, &c., Property Conveyance Bill was read
second time.
The other orders were disposed of, and the house 114
journed at five minutes past one o'clock.

Country Markets,

LIVERPOOL, JULY 6.

The market to-day opened with strength, and, althougl
the passing business was not notable for activity for of'
sumption, buyers being very shy, wheat and lour must 11
quoted 2d ~er bushel, and flour is per sack and barse
higher on the week.