The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-19 00:00:00

THE' SCM: pI=LONfON, FRIDAY EVENI NG,I FTBRU'ARY
_l9, 1858

then? In the year 1813 the question was debated
between Lord Wellesley and Lord Granville. Lord Wel-
lesley said that the monopoly ought to be maintained
and Lord Grenville that the monopoly should be destroyed.
But upon ono point they agreed that the authority of the
company was not maintainable unless the monopoly of the
trade was maintained with it. " Therefore," said Lord
Wellesley, 1 wish to preserve the company, I shall
monopoly," On the other hand, Lord Gren-
ville As I wish to destroy the monopoly, I will do
maintainaid, t h: "
r a
away with the company." Both these able men saw the
close connection which existed between the power that exer-
cised privileges, and the exclusive exercise of those privileges.
In the year 1853. another blow was struck at the authority of
the company. They were divided alogether from trade ;
the trade through China was abolished, and their forts and
factories were taken at a fair valuation, and paid for to the
company, who were from that time deprived of their func-
tions. Another important change recurred in 1853, when a
certain number of directors should be nominated by the
Crown. In 1853 another, and a still more important change
took place. Whereas, in the years 1793, 1813, and 1833,
successively the company's charter had been renewed for a
period of twenty years; the Government of Lord Aberdeen
resolved to leave the whole question open for the resolution
of Parliament by declaring that at any time after a short in-
terval the Crown might give notice to the company teat its
authority should cease, and that its territory might be taken
under the active administration of the Crown. The hon.
member for Huntingdon therefore is notauthorised in saying
or supposing that there was any kind of deceit, or any
stratagem concealed under the proposition of the Govern-
ment of Lord Aberdeen The general opinion was that it
was not wise to disturb at that time the authority of the
company—that in a few years the Government might be bet-
ter conducted in the hands of the company—that the Govern-
ment of the company should not be permanently maintained,
and that they wished to reserve to Parliament the fall power
to deal with the question. Then, sir, I coma to that
which is the great question of all ; are iere any reasons at
present why it should be thought desirable that this au-
thority should be taken out of the hands of the company and
brought into the hands of the Crown. I speak upon this
subject with the deepest sense of its importance ; with a feel-
ing of the great and inestimable value of our Indian empire,
with the dread of disturbing its security, and with the wish
to provide everything that can be done for its maintenance.
Still I cannot but see that there was in the constitution of the
East India Company it,elf, as regards the government of In-
dia, sources of danger which were seen by Lord Metcalf and
Sir John Malcolm, and even I should add a'so by Lord Wil-
liam B ntinck, and by others. I mean with regard to the
sepoy army—the army of Bengal. Now, many hon. gentle-
men have discussed what were the causes of the mutiny, and
the hon. and gallant director (Colonel Sykes) who spoke to-
night, and that it arose from a fear of our interference with
their religious feelings. It may be so. I am not prepared
to dispute it ' • but what I ask is, what was the cause of the
existence of this great Bengal army itself ? If you look
through history, there is notoing at all resembling it. The
great Roman Empire ruled Spain with a single legion—ruled
Africa with a single legion—ruled Egypt with a single legion,
and auxiliaries were attached to these legions. The real
armed body was the great Roman nation. They never
dreamt of a native army on which to rely in cases of emer-
gency. Look at your colonies. Treating, for a moment, the
East India Company as a private body and apart from its po-
litical influence, consi ler the position your empire, made from
time to time, cemented with our blood and fortified by the
wisdom of those who have governed this country. Had our d
various colonies anything like the Bengal army ? Consider
what would have beenthe difference, if at one time when the
nationality of Canada was roused and endangered by the acts
of an aspiring and artful demagogue who rose up against Brit-
ish power—consider the effect if a large French army had been
at the beck of that demagogue. As it was, Lord Seaton
had nothing to do but to scatter a force of unarmed pea-
santry, and all the insurrection was at an end. Or consider
the case of Sir Henry Ward, in the lonian Islands. Suppose,
instead of a single regiment, he had had a very large body of
Zautiotes or natives of Corfu, armed an I disciplined, and
drilled in order. What would have been the aspect in Ceylon
if, in 1848, there had been in that island a numerous body of
Cingalese ? If that be the case, let us look at the position in
which the Bengal army was. Lord Wm. Benti ,ek said that
most certainly it was the most inefficient army be was ac-
quainted with. Lord Metcalfe says, " Your situation is pre•
carious, but as long as the army is faithful, you aro secure.
If that army is 'IA faithful your empire may be at an end in
a day." Sir J Malcolm says, " Your position is so precari-
ous that no man oan tell at any moment whence danger may
arise." What is the cause of 'this precarious power ? This
army, though it w.s faithful for a very long period, and ae-
parently contented with anything, yet I remember hearing
from officers of high authority that there were four or five
thing' t'aet slpey army would not do. One was that they
would not cedar° the least suspicion of any interference with
their religion. Another was that they would not bear the
least want of compliance with their demands for pay and al-
lowance. Then again the Bengal army never would embark
on shipboald or go to sea. Even you find, from the testimony
of your officers, that this admiraole army will not go into the
trenches and dig for fear of violating their high caste. On the
other hand, works arc performed under a burning sun by the
British soldiers, who are told by the natives, " You are not fit
to associate with Bengal sepoys, and must be degrade 1." Is it
not obvious that whilst you have an army of this sort you are
not safe ? The question w,s whether, during every year that
passed over our heads, it was fortunate we hal not a mutiny
arising from some trifling cause which established native su-
premacy without the means of putting a stop to it. What was
the cause of having this army? The cause was a part of that
system which Mr. Pitt es ablis ed. Mr. Pitt raised to power,
deferred in every respect to the E set India Company, He would
allow no man to touch what he called the chartend rights of
the company. It would bo robbery, spoliation, and destruc-
tion of the constituti on to interfere with them. But after the
Board of Control was established, Mr. Pitt and Mr. Duedas
wished to govern India themselves. In 1798 Mr. Pitt desired
to send out to India six regiments which had been raised in
this country, though not required here, but wero w,,nted is
India. The East India Company protested against this. Mr.
Pitt had no power, according to the act of 1784, to send out
those troops. Accordingly he introduced a declaratory act,
which was a slam-y mode of endeavouring to gain his object.
He said that by moans of such a declaratory act he might
send out troops to India, and he carried the question. But the
East India Company, when Mr. Pitt was at the summit of his
power, had sufficient influence to secure the introduction of
clauses into the bill which placed a limit upon the number of
troops to be sent to India. From that time I have heard on
the testimony of officers high in command, that the greatest
jealousy was caused in consequence of the increase in the
number of the Queen's army, and there was always the
greatest preference shown for the native troops. The mutiny
then took place, and the army which they had petted and
spoilt, broke out into revolt, massacreing their officers, wives
and children. This required something on the part of the
Government, and of this house to be done for the future. We
cannot, even if it were desirable, expect to raise up such a
again, portions of which aro still in open revolt.
India an army of the Queen. It must be a
a British army, an army of her Majesty the
Eirß
ueo Bengal
og
mustpale
aanse
anhryamv n
Queen. When you have made that change you will have
broken down the foundation of the power of the East India
Company ; and I cannot see that an army of 50,000 or 60,000
Queen's troops can bo placed at the disposal of the East India
Company. We must use the name of the Crown, and inter-
, pose tile authority of the Crown, political and civil
power necessarily being vested in the Crown, as well as
the military power. (Hear, hear.)
That appears an urgent
case for legislation, and whether we lecislato this year or
next year, we cannot close our eyes to the necessity of legis-
lation. I must decline to follow the example of tho hon.
baronet, who discussod. the details o: t :e bill introduced by
my noble friend, the First Minister of the Crown, for I defy
any man to argue on the provisious of the bill without seeing
the bill itself, and the connection of the clauses one with the
other. There are some things, however, if the proposed
change of Goverrenent be made, which I wish the house to
keep in mind. lam free to allow that oenefits and advan-
tages resulted from the independent character and position
af the gentlemen selected as directors of the East India Com-
pany ; but I do not see how a body of constituents like thaS
of the Court of Proprietors can be accepted as the fxure
foundation for the governing council of India. It can hardly
be expected that such a basis will be or indeed can be main-
tained
preserve an indePen lent character in the council sh mid it be
adopted. I say, therefore, that if this part of the bill of my'
noble friend shoull be found to contain clauses which do not
sufficiently provide for the objects I consider essential, I shall
join any hon. gentleman iu requiring that security be pro-
vided for the indepe ',deuce of the members of council. (Hear,
taii g that can be done ought to be d 'an to
p ; but every thin
ill
hear.) Another object which I wish to keep in view is the
great military and civil sservices which have been performed
in India. They are the most noble and the most successful
and I trust, with the same benefit to England
which have ever appeared on the face of the globe. (Hear.
which they have already conferred. (Hear, bear.)
hear.)
wish
I tof suchsee security,
but
it
is
one
They should be kept up with all heir_ rewards and
is whether those men of the middle classes have
nTaTiohtdel°dlqllollinilasie't'niet°stie'eything' in our service that we wished (10110 -
whether they have not faqhfully, zealously, and laboriously,
gene-
rats, performed their duties, positions, statesmen and
pl i
to tehne rw.
will ever male° me coesent to any provisions of the bill pro-
posedrasedsh should
ot
to bo introduced which in. any d • may injure or
degree
depreciate those services, (Hear, hear.) There is another
men
nh'be the case, noticing
on which we must make up our minds to encounter danger.
I wish it could be said that by means of the Ministerial plan
questions of Indian Government would be saved from be-
coming matter of party debate in this house. (liear.) There
are gentlemen in this house who no doubt decline to place
confidence in the Government for the time being —they dis-
trust either their competent y or their honesty—(hear)—or
perhaps both. (Laughter.) It cannot be expected, that
tlicre wilt be an absence of all bias on all motions or debates
in that house on the affairs of India ; alth ,ugh nothing can
be more injurious to ourselves than to make subjects of the
utmost delicacy matters of popular debate and the theme of
angry party conflicts. But that is the condition of our very
existence. We must bear with it in India as we have borne
with it elsewhere. I see how much deliberation it will take
iu order to avoid as much as possible those dangers, and yet
I see no alternative but that-of looking the question in the
face, and endeavouring with all the deliLerative wisdom of
Paniament to come to a proper selution as to the fat are f etc
of this great empire which is entrusted to our hands—(hear,
hear)—which we are to hold for the benefit and happiness of
millions and millionsof
that duty well. I feel sure we cannot avoid it. (Cheers.)

---
Mr. DISRAELI-e-Sir, the noble lord concluded a his-
tory of the &Toy army with an emotion which must have
been shared by every member in this house, and no ono
could have listened to Lis narrative without feeling the
sincerity of every sentence he had delivered respecting the
danger we had incurred from that force. But what sur-
prised me most was, that with so full an acquaintance
with this subject, and so profound a conviction of this lin-
minont peril, the noble lord in 1853 had not thought fit to
call the attention of his colleagues to so serious a state of
affairs. (Rear, hear.) And, sir, I agree with the noble
lord that it is very difficult, and certainly itis not my task,
d onlyi
to vindicate the elements of the constituent body by which
the directors of the East India Company may he chosen.
It is very possible that the constituent body can he justly
descrile
surely in the year 1853 the noble lord, called upon to con-
by the epithet used by the noble lord : but
eider the whole question of our Indian empire, and the
means of administering the government by which its affairs
should be cooducte 1 must have been equally sensible of
what he now styles the " ab-urdity" of these elements.
Nor do I feel that the noble lord was particularly happy
in the argument he urged and the illustration he offered to
show that this is the time for legislation respecting India.
According to the noble lord the matter will run aids :
We legislated in favour of our fellow-subjects professing
the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland when we were iu
fear of insurrection in that country, and, therefore, why
should we shrink, when there i 3 an insurrection in
from doing the same thing? (Rear.) But, with great stib-
leission to the noble lord there appears to be between the
two cases exactly that difference which destroys all the
force of his reasoning and all the appositeness of his illus-
tration. Because I can easily conceive that a statesman
might propose to legislate for a country where he was
afraid of insurrection if he thought that he could thereby
prevent it—(hear)—but surely when insurrection rages no

identity of circumstances exists which would justify the
inference on which the noble lord laid such stress.
Nor, when the noble lord enters into the causes of the In-
' dian revolt, and finds arguments in it in favour of legisla-
tion, can I forget that when last year I asked the house to
inquire into this subject no one was so strong, I might
even say so violent, as the noble lord in impressing upon
the house that until the insurrection was completely put
down it was idle to investigate its causes, and that all the
energy of the country ought to be devoted to its suppres-
sion. Sir, I have long been of opinion that it was a mat-
ter of high policy that the relations between the sovereign
of these realms and the inhabitants of India should be
drawn more nearly and rendered more direct. I have for
a long time been persuaded that by such a consummation
the administration of India must be greatly improved, and
that such a change would be the precursor of benefits to
the population of thet country, and indeed to the popula-
tion of our own, which it would be difficult to exaggerate.
In examining the question that is now brought Wore us,
and in bringing my powers of investigation to the measure
of the Government, I at least am influenced by no preju-
dice, becalm the bias of my mind—and none of us can
consider a question of such magnitude free from bias—
would rather bo in favour of the object sought to be ob-
tained by the proposition of the Government. Nor, Sir, as
we have heard a great deal of party feeling, could Ibe at
all influenced iu considering this question by any such
feeling in regard to the proposer of the amendment. It is
an honour that I deeply appreciate that I enjoy the ac-
quaintance, and I hope I may add the friendship, of the
hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring). It was,
however, only recently, at the end of the last session, that
my hon. friend informed the house, and not for the first
time, that he regretted to say, upon the subject of India,
that my views and his own seldom agreed. Therefore,
when I come to ask myself what course I ought to
pursue upon this question, I feel that I am approach-
ing it without prejudice, and until the arguments that
have satisfied my mind are answered I shall believe that
the course which I shall take is also tke most prudent
for the house to adopt. If I had thought that a change in
the (Unction recommended by her Majesty's Ministers was 1
one that would draw the relations between the inhabitants
of this country and India nearer—if I thought that it
would greatly improve the condition of the inhabitants of
that country—l must still express my opinion that the
operation end result of the measure of the Government
would produce in both instances quite a contrary effect. '
Before we come to the vote I must ask the house to con-
sider the influence which the vote they are asked to adopt
will have on the finances of this country. I have not heard
that quesion clearly put in the course of this debate, but
it appears to me to be one, not only of the greatest import-
an ia, but also extremely pressing and imminent. We have
had on several occasions a controversy on the identity be-
tween English and Indian finance, and I believe the general
opinion is, that although it will not be possible ultimately
to disconnect them, yet that the means by which they will
be inseparably united will be a gradual and slow process.
Let me remind the house of the bill now on the table for
raising money for the service of India, and of the effect on
our finance and upon Indian finance of the proposal of the
Government. It is idle any longer to distinguish between
English and Indian finance. If the President of the Indian
Council—a Queen's Minister in Downing-street—should
find it necessary to raise money by a public loan to pay
her Majesty's troops in India, it will be idle, when the
divieends are due upon that loan, to pretend to assert that
i he wilt be able to say, if the means are not at hand, " The
exchequer of India is empty, and the revenue of India is
alone liable." (Eisen.) Every gentleman will feel in his own
mind, that such a distinction as this between the finances
of India and England cannot be retained for a moment,
and that a blow upon British credit at its very source,
and where the tide is highest, will be infallible and in-
evitable, if such a plan can be urged by a British
Minister. (Hear, hear.) Before we agree to the in-
troduction of this bill I ask the house to consider
what are the financial relations at this moment between
England anti India. Sit, we have official documents
upon the table that show at this moment a chronic deficit
in India of about 2,000,00.11. sterling per annum. ‘Ve have
a paper—l do not know whether it is official, but it is au-
thentic, and it is generally circulated—which shows that
next year there will be in India 92,000 of her Majesty's
troops—that is to say, 52,000 of her M .jesty's troops in
excess of the estimates to which we are so long accustomed
and which we may consider the routine finance of India.
You can't on an average put down your ree,iments of artil-
lery, cavalry, and infantry at less than 90,e00/. a-piece, and
you must estimate the cost of these 52,000 troops at a sum
of between 4,000,0001. and 5,000,r00/. sterling. Of course,
you are to deduct the expense of ~ our DeLgiil Army, which
is now ab.,lishe I, but that expense is only one moiety of
that sum of 4,000,0001. or 5,C0 ),0001. Therefore, when you
are adopting the government and the liabilities of India,
which you are now asked to do without consideration, you
are adopting a chronic deficit of at least 4,000,0001. ster-
ling. (Hear.) I beg the house to observe that I have put
the case without reference to the consequences of the late
and present disturbance to the revenue of India. The defi-
cit of the Indian revenue will be 10,000,000/. this year. I
am throwing this extraordinary influence and result out of
the estimate, but I take the clear deficit which for several
years has regularly accrued. lam adding to it tho inovi-
' table increase of expenditure caused by this force, which
must maintain your authority in India, and I tell you you
will have to deal immediately- with an Indian deficit of
between 4,000,0001. and 5,000,0001. What, then, is the
position of this country? Have we a surplus revenue of
such an amount that, we can look forward with calmness
and composure to a proposal of this kind, and a to policy
that entails such responsibility ? The Chancellor of the
Exchequer has not yet told us the state of our finances.
It is a communication that cannot be long delayed, and
will be an addition to those nights of interest
which the present session promises to produce.
I do not presume to form an accurate estimate of that
statement. but I would not take 7,000,0001. to pay
the Britisl. deficit that will lee introduced to us by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of a month.
(" rear, hear," and a laugh.) You aro not, therefore,
merely doing a sentimental act, and changing the Govern-
ment of a country by an aye or no, but the question is, are
you prepared to entail upon the Minister of Finance an
immediate deficit of 11,000,0001. or 12,000,000/. sterling ?
(Hear.) The House may rely upon it that this wiel be the
consequence of the act which it is so lightly called upon to
sanction, and sshich so many of its members aro so care-
lessly prepared to ratify. Before the House of Commons,
before the people of England incur such a responsibility,
they ought to make themselves masters of the resources of
India--(hear, hear)—they ought to make themselves mas-
ters of the means by which the revenue of that country is
raised and the expenditure controlle t. That shows how
completely we have in this business begun at the wrong
end. (Hear.) India is not governed in Cannon-row or in
Lea lenhall-atreet ; it is governed in Calcutta. (Hear.) If
you pass au act of this kind which, by a phrase, seems to
change the Government of India, you will, without acting
upon the more distant and real Government, entail upon
this country all the consequences of the policy and the
eilgageme its of the Government in India, while, in fact
you will have no control whatever over the system which
prevails in that country. You will find that when you
have passed this bill you will have less means of governing
India than by the somewhat roundabout system which
exists you overt now obtain. (Hear.) What is the real
Government of In ? If yat were to form your opinion
from the bill which the noble lord has described you would
imagine that the Government of India depended upon a
few individuals living in England, receiving public salaries,
and obeying the dictates and commands of a Minister of
State ; but the Government of India is something very dif-
ferent. The Government of India has, in the first place, to
I deal with the rising of an immense revenue, whichis not a :e-
-quate to the expeuditure,and unless, when you take u on
' yourselves the pecuniary respoosibilities of Inflia,you at the
same time take measures by which you can appropriate and
prudently manage the resources of that country, all that
you will obtain by the bill which the Government now
i asks permission to introduce—all that yeti will obtain will
be that you will have to supply the deficiencies of a distant
1 Government over which you will have
inocontrol, and the
1 emarse of whitey as I shall show you, will nevneelely aggra-
vate all those injurious consequences which you imagine
that by this you are going to terminate. What you want
is a totel change of the system of administration in India.
You want to put an end to the expenditnre which pro-
duces deficits. You want a power that will examiee your
relations with native princes ; you want a power that will
examine the means by which your revenue is raised, which
will examine into the tenure of laud, and which will bring
native capital, which is abundant, to the cultivation of that
land. You want all these things, and without them the
revenue of India cannot expand. Remember what that
revenue is. You have heard it before, but it was not a
matter of the slightest interest to the House of Commons
or to the country, because they were not responsible for the
engagements which upon that revenue were entered into
by the persons in power. The revenue of India is princi-
pally raised from the land by a means which pauperises
the country, and under which all those who are acquainted
with it agree that that revenue cannot increase. That re-
venue is also made up from a precarious rend not very hon-
ourably source. These things, managed with great talent
and discretion b 7 a imamate'. service organised for that
olsject, and whose existence depended upon the raising of
the revenue, have with great occasional disadvantages and
deficiencies worked pretty well ; but it will be quite diffe-
rent when the credit of England and the credit of India are
perfectly identical. If once the deficiency in India is to bo
supplied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the House
of Commons, no one will have any great interest in the
prudent management of the resources of that country.
(Hear, hear.) I say again, you are beginning at the wrong
end. You ought to have adopted the course which I took
the liberty of recommending last year. When you had
put down the rebellion you ought to have sent to India a
Royal commission with plenary powers. It would have
i been for that commission to investigate the great questions
to which I have referred; it would have been for that com-
mission to revise and establish your relations with native
princes, and to organise and construct your forces which
never can be formed of the crude material to which the
noble lord has referred. You will have to raise a largo
native force, and upon the manner and upon the system
in which that force is raised the pecuniary disposition of
India will mainly depend. That commission ought to have
inquired whether the tenure of land, upon which all de-
pends, might not be modified beneficially for all parties ;
anti then when you had male yourselves, when the coun-
try had made itself master of the situation, then it would
have been high time to consider whether formally and
completely in the metropolis the change should not have
Ihlen carried oat which would transfer the supreme autho-
rity in India to her Majesty. At present we are undertak-
ing an immense liability ; we aro entering into engagements
which will some day make us tremble, and we have no
security whatever that those who really possess power in
India, who really manage the resources of that country,
will be in the least controlled fur our benefit, or will so
manage those resources, or exorcise that authority, that
the proposed arrangement shall not produce increased
evils. Let me ask the house to consider how this measure,
if carried, will act as regards the real government in
India. Let us for a moment assume that this bill, as do-
ser:bed by the noble lord, has passed both houses of Par-
liament and received her Majesty's assent. We shall have
a president of India, and a council of eight nominees.
Now, sir, when in 1853, I, in company with my noble
friend the member for King's Lynn (Lard Stanley), im-
plorsd the house not to hasten to a settlement, of this
question, but to enter into a full examination before they
decided upon the government of India, we had before use
proposition that one-third of the directors should be
Uevernment nominees To that proposition I raised an
objection which I thought was never answered. It ap-
peared to me that if there were to be directors cr members
of council nornin ,ted by the Crown, they ought, above all
things, to be independent-- (hear, hear)—aud I could not
see how that independence could be obtained unless they
were p€rmanent. There seemed to be for independence and
knowledge two-qualities which were indispensable, no se-
curity but permanency. (year.) i That I thought a vital
i
objection to the Bill of 1853, and f t were v. vital objection
to that bill by which only one-third of the directors or
councillors were to be Government nominees, what shall
a
we sayproposition according to which all the members
os e
of the council are to be nominees? (Hear.) How will this
work? What will be the inevitable concur, the influence
which it will exercise upon the real government of India,

-- -
aid the fatal verities which it will have upon the fortunes
if this country ? The Government nominees, according to
the plan proposed by the Government, cannot be indepen-
dent. Far from independence, there is every element of
dependence provided. (Hear.) We do not even see them
in this house. They are secluded from the constitutional
criticism of Parliament. What will be the influence of the
nominees upon the President of the Council ? Why, sir,
they will have that influence upon their superior which in-
feriors generally exercise. They will have no influence
unless they pander to his interests—(hear)—and none will
be eommended, none will be looked upon es assiduous and
energetic except those who are his assiduous supporters,
and those who are active and accomplish the purposes of
the Government. It requires no argument to prove that,
so far as influence is concerned they will sink into that in-
significant position which is the inevitable lot of persons
placed in such circumstances ; they will b rcowe completely
the creatures of the Minister, who will be able to tie him-
self of them whenever he likes. A plausible Minister
could get rid of all the eight Government nominee conn-
cillors in 24 hours. Lot there be another cry for adminis-
trative reform, let there be another demand for economical
reductions, and I can imagine no Minister more
popular than a Chancellor of the Exchequer who, in mak-
ing his annual statement, shoulddilate upon the reductions
in the public service, the large amount saved to the nation,
and the diminution of expenditure by a patriotic Ministry.
He would enter into all the details, give us aca s alogue
of all the salaries diminished, and the places abolished, and
would wind up by saying that he had the greatest satisfae-
tion in informing the House of Commons that his right
hon. friend the President of the Council of India, with
that public spirit which had always distinguished,him, and
that devotion to public business for which he was remark.
able, had found out that the 8 members of the council were
of no use whatever, that he could do all the business him-
self, and that 8,0001. a year might be saved to the public
service. (A laugh.) Where would he your nominee coun-
cillors ? They would have as little influence as a lay lord of
the Admiralty, who, without discharging a single known
duty, disappears from the scene of active life. (A laugh.)
Now, when we get the Minister, we shall have him practi-
cally a single solitary Minister. I will admit, whoever he
may be, that he has eminent talents, great experience, and
unrivalled energy; but with all these great qualities, what
will be his position? With all the demands thet will be
made upon him, and these will be the greater in proportion
to the brilliancy of his qualities and the energy of his mind
what will be the positiou of this Pie sideut of the Indian
Council when he has to transact the business of en nations
n Hindostan? :thy, sir, there is no intellect that will not
sink perplexed and overwhelmed under the burden. And
what will be the consequence? Everybody in this house
must know. He will have to trust entirely to the Governor-
General. It will be impossible for the English Minister to
grapple with the details of Indien administration, and what
then will be the position of the Governor-General I You
tinnk you will have obtained India:, refer in by this bill ;
while, in point of feet, it never touches Indian administra-
tion on the other side of the ocean. The Governor-General
may be an able and ambitions man, and may be desirous, as
most men are, that his name should be talked of and remem-
bered. He will embark perhaps in conquests or in great
works, and take care that his administration is brilliant
and famous. The expenditure of India will increase every
year, because the Governor-General will depend upon the
admirably conceived and highly gifted labours of the civil
servants in India, and they will support and assist him
as long as he supports ant assists them, and so long as he
depends on the revenue raised by the proconsular system
which they uphold. They will support the Governor-
General so long as he carries out the system of govern-
ment now established in India—a system which may have
been admirably devised and admirably suited to the con-
dition of India, but which if adopted by this country will
soon have such an effect on our finances that I believe it
will not be a question whether we shall rule India, but
whether eve shall ruin the country. (Hear, hear.) But is
that all ? May we not have a Minister at home, who,
though not able to grapple with the details of Indian ad-
ministration, m no one man can, will be an able man,
capable of taking general views, and who will not allow
the Governor-General to pursue his career without some
notice being taken of it in a fine historical desp it ch such
as no one could write better than the noble lord the mem-
ber for Lon Son? (A laugh.) How will the Governor-
General, in such circumstances, manage a suspicious ad-
ministration in London ? He will place at the disposal of
the Minister the p .tronage of Italia. (Cheers.) Whenever
there is one to be rewarded sr got rid of in a moment of
emergency, in such exigent circums ancas the Government
will know there is ae all-powerful friend who will assist
them in the person of the Governor-General of India.
(Hear.) But when the Govornor-Gener ,1 has favoured all
your creatures ' • when in huedrede of cases you are placed
in eilneult and dangerous circumstances, and his power
and patronage have always been ready to save yeti, tan
you call that Governor-General to account ? (Cheers.)
Will he not be the possessor of a supremacy of power
such as I should be sorry to see any English sub-
ject command ? (Hear.) The consequence will be that,
instead of a change which would draw nearer the rela-
tions between the inhabitants of Hindostan and England,
you will have a law that will produce exclusion andeetrarge-
ment upon a great scale. (Hear, hear.) Instead of a law
that will allow you to breathe a new spirit into our Indian
administration, and offset wholesome and regenerating
mea .uses, you will have an abyss established between this
metropolis and Calcutta that no m.,n will ever be strong
enough or bold enough to pass. It is a wise policy to
establish the name of the Queen in India,—(hear, hear)
but if yoll want to establish the name of the Queen in
India,—if you want to transfer thither the authority of
the natural functions of the Severeign,—it is in India you
must commence the change. It is in India those charges
must be effected that are necessary for the good govern-
ment of,lndia. (near, hear.) And you mast at the very
outset meet the financial question. You can no longer,
now that.an inevitable connexion is to be established be-
tween English and Indian finance, allow a blind deficit to
be created in India any more than in England. (Cheers.)
And by what steps will you effect this great object? A
council of insignificant men, who may be swept off the
scene in a moment, will•be useless for such a teak ; end
even the most distinguished man that ever ruled in Eng-
; land could no more in England deal with the gi eat question
of Indian a tiniuistratioa than they could deal with the ad-
ministration in seine distant lend with which they had no
connexion. I won't go into those questions that have been
touched on by so many gentlemen. I will not enter into
the effect upon our Parliamentary life of the increa eel
pat oaege that will accrue to the Government ; I will after
all 11)4 h rs been lucid, confirm myself to the financial ques-
tion, which has hardly yet been touched upon, but which
is creall questions the most imps, tent. Twelve mouths has
not elapsed since you felt yourselves compelled to put an
end to increased taxation caused by the wen on a cons:der-
able scale. (dear, hear.) Remember the impatience
with which whet, the war was concluded the country
regarded the heavy ameunt of taxation they had
been called to bear. (Hear, hear.) Think what
the present state of our finances is. lam not certain that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not now passing many
anxious nights in preparing this ways and means for the
present year to meet the wants an:l necessities of our do-
minions in Europe; but when we reflect that the deficit
may in a year or two be doubled by the steps you are now
taking in regard to India, I beg you to consider what then
wiil be the effect on the purses of your oonstituonts. How
are we to meat the constituencies when we have a defichney
of a much greater amount than we have ever seen in the
times that are past? I entreat the house to consider seri-
ously this question of finance. That is the way in which
I would read the amendment of my friend (Mr. Baring),
who, I need not say, so far as I am ftiV3l-0, gave notice of
that amensment without consultation with any one. It is
nut time to legislate for India till we have had a much
more matured plan of legislation before us. Ido not place
i nay argument, though it might be p aced triumphantly, on
the condition 'of India itself. I do not place it on other
groends that have bees stated. I put it on a more selfish
footing. I take a lower tone, but one which I find must
be urged and pressed on the attention of the house and the
country. I ace asked to take a step that will involve this
country ire pecuniary einbarasements that ar frightful to
, contemplate. Till we have complete possession of the re-
sources of India in India—till we have the means of avail-
' ing ourselves of its resources—:ill we have taken the steps
that are necessary to increase those resources, and place
I them in a seun I and healthy condition, do not let us take
a coer-se which is not transferring the govero went of India
from the Company to the Queen, but is only transferring
the patronage of the Company to the Government in Down-
ingestreet. I won't say that is their object, but I will say
that it can have no other effect. (Hear, hear.) I lament
that this question has been brought forward at this moment.
(Hear, hear.) lam not surprised that the House of Com•
mons is at this period of the year involved in In
debates. No one could suppose that we could meet with-
' out our time and our thoughts being called to this question,
that eve should meet without inquiring into the causes of
the rebellion, into the conduct of the war, and into the
policy of those Ministers who, with India in the position
in which they tell us it i 9 and has been for yeas, could
have embarked in a war with Persia and the empire of
China. Weer.) That we should have inquired into all '
these circumstances I can understand ; but strange indeed
is the different lot which is await hg us. The proposition
that we have before us is this—that we are to increase the
power of those who we believe have exercised injudiciously
the power they possess, and that we a:e to transfer autho-
rity to those who have proved by their conduct that they
are not worthy of the authority which they alreasly possess.
(Cheers.) Sir, I hope the house will hesitate long before it
sanctions this ineastne. It is possible on a donate of this
kind, originating with an indepeedent member, that a
majority at this stage may be obtained ; but I take it for
granted that the member for Hue tingdou wanted discus-
sion—thet he wanted the public attention to ba roused to
the immense stake now at issue, and the, afore very rightly,
and in that sense very wisely, he has lost no opportunity
by which this attention should be attracted. We have
heard over and over again in this house that India never
could commend attention here—that so long as there was
a debate on India it was impossible to keep a house, and
that it was a subject however great its magnitude and vest ,
and varied its details, in which Englishmen would never
take an interest. I think, sir, there is a very simple and
satisfactory reasc n for conduit, which I cannot say is much
to our honour, and for circumstances which I own are some-
what humiliating. Englishmen have never yet had to
rely for India. (Cheers.) That is the secret why India
has never produced any interest in this house. Ques-
tions of conquest, questions of annex,,ti, n, and even
questions of rebellion, the greatest rebellion that has
ever happened in this empire, last year hardly commanded
attention because hon. gentlemen, full of confidence
in the Ministry end in their good stars, went out into the
lobby and said, "Never mind, the Coral acy will have to
pay for it. (A laugh.) Sir, I think that delusion is gone
for ever. I diet think, after this bill shall have passed,
that there is one among us who will fail.to see that there
is a complete identity between India and Englishmen. Or
all the thlesions ever practised in Parliament was that
arrangement of 1853, which afforded the House of Com-
mons an opportunity of hearing an India budget. (A
laugh.) An Indian budget detailing the fortunes and pro-
gress of the empire was a subject not likely to emtribute
much to the edification of the house, and who could be
surprised that the Minister could not command a house to
listen to the lucid narrative ? (A laugh.) But what I want
to impress on the house is, that those days of Paradise are
over. We may in future misgovern India, but in future
we shall have to pay for it. (llcar, hear,) We hive boon
discussing these affairs for three or four nights, but what
hon. gentleman has descended from the high Empyrean of
politics to touch on this vulgar point. Depend upon it,
however, it will more and more develops itself until it
acquires colossal proportions, and, if you
ewxaismhintiongtaykoeuar
prudent step and seize the opportunity of
position before incurring fresh responsibilities I recom-
mend you to wait till you have seen the budget of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer before involving yourself in
the Indian expenditure. (Cheers.)

Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, there is nothing more curi-
ous sometimes than the progress of a debate. This debate
began by the hon. member for Huntingdon movings.modest
amendment, professing that the question was not one that
ought to be traced in any party spirit, that it was simply a
matter of opinion, and that upon that ground he called for
the decision of the hotif3 J3ut when the gentlemen on the

other side of the table took tip the debate we found it as-
sume a shape of the most animated and acrimonious party
spirit. We remember the speech of the hon. member sow
Enniskillen. We have "seen" the speech to-night of the
hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire, of which I will
only say. whether it excited conviction in the minds of
those who heard it I know not, but lam sure it excited
deep envy in the mind of the hon. member for Enniskillen.
(Laughter and cheers.) No doubt the hon. member for
Enniskillen, when next he rises to address the horse, will
feel that he will have to put forth, not his mental, but his
physical exertions, for the purpose of equalling, for be
cannot surpass, the exhibition we have seen. (Laughter.)
But the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down has
come to the real point of the case. He, throwing aside
ovate tiding connected with the mere abstract question, has
stated the question in his opinion as this, that we who 5"
on this side of the house are not worthy of the confidence
which the Crown and the country have reposed in us, and
that we are unworthy to continue to exercise that power,
which he says will be augmented by the bill under c^nel.
deration. Sir, if that be the opinion of hon. gantlemen
opposite, why slo they shrink from putting that question
to the house? (Cheers.) Then, forsooth, the right hon.
gentleman taxes us with our policy in regard to China,
which he knows received the full and entire approbation
of Parliament and the country. He has also endeavoured
to frighten the members of this house with a financial bug'
bear. He says, if you pass this bill you will have a cons:
plete identity between the finances of this country Aug
the finances of India. Nothing can be more contrary to
the real fact than the statement that this bill wilt make,
no difference between the finances of England and those of
India. On the contrary, it will render that division more
clear and more precise, and will put it more in the power
of Parliament to control the expenditure. The most cari-
ous thing has been the way in which those who base I°P.
ported the motion of the hon. member for Huntingdon
have endeavoured to make that motion square with the
opposite opinion on which that motion is founded. The
greater part of those who have spt,ken on the other sines
have admitted, and none more strongly than the right
hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire, that
it is highly expedient that the Government of Ingle,
should be administered iu the name of the Queen. But,
says the right bon. gentleman, you should continnue tne
present systeei, and yet you should have the administration
of India carried on in the name of the Queen. Why are
the East La Oa Company to carry on the administration uf
India in the natr e of the Queen ? Are they to be server°d
into officers holding office under the Crown.? How is it ea"
Bible you emit,' have the administration of them in thenanie
of the Queen ? They possess an Indian Council, of which
certaitt number of members are nominees of the Crown, and
which has DO direct counuueicetion with the responsible
advisers of the Crown. We propose to abolish the council,
ant transfer the power to another Council, with the addition
of other nominees of the Crown, mai to place the Council in
di' eat personal communication with the responsible s dvieeer
of the Crown; but th• right hon. gentleman who, in 180'9
said he did not know who was the Indian Governiment or
who was responsible for it, appears to-night at last to htye
found that out. He says is the Governor-General- jl'6
says you may do what you like at home, but it is the Go'vernor-General of India who has the ruling authority • it
is
he whom you ought to control, and it is in India, therefore,
that you ought to make your alterations. Sir, that. opinion
is diametrically opposed to the opinion on which the hoe.
hie bar for Huntingdon has founded his amendment. Jtte
sayt it is inexpedient to disturb anything relating to Indian
affairs until the mutiny is over. But suppose you wero really
to send out a Royal Commission to India to supersede 01
Governor-General at a moment when you require all bin
energy and experience, are you to sent a roving commis"°n
to inquire into all the proceedings of the Governor-General
and the officers under him ? I say that no course could 05
better calculated than that to defeat your purpose,
and to prevent the tranquillisation of India. If it P
true, as 1. think is admitted by almost all those who be/s
spoken upon this subject with any weight or authority.--
barring those who, belonging to the Court of Directors,
must naturally have great difficulty in arriving_ at etir
conclusion that a change ought to be effected-4'
great advantage at home and great benefit in India
v/00'd
arise from governing that country by the direct authority
of the Queen, then I say you ought to begin at home, and
not commence by any local change in Felts.; and the nit*.
sure which we propos,' is v, nil calculated to produce the uei
,ltd result with as little derangement and alteration,°
machinery as is consistent with the accomplishment of Cuet
object of view. But it is said that the members of the Con
cii will not be independent. lam at a loss to underetalle
what they mean when they use that argument. If thel
mean that you are to have associated with the Presidenso
who is charged with the administration of Indie, a Coiln're
who are to thwart him, who are to be antagonistic, wh°.ate
to overrule his decisions, and who are not to be res,pons;l:
either to Parliament or the country, then I say that:it,:s
I sort of council not likely to conduce to harmonious ac"le
er beneficial results. What would hon. gentlemen have said
if we had proposed, as they have suggested, to appoi°",,./
Council the members of which should be for life? VT,;3h
any one of them have acquiesced in a proposal by vitt:iv
the Government of the day was to appoint perpetual
cillors, who were to control and overrule those who reig.
hereafter, by a champ) of political parties, become reslia'n
a
sible fur the administration of India? Responsibilityr Jar
this country can only rest in one quarter, that tl"
being those persons whO, by the confidence of the Croor,
ant
the choice of Parliament, are for the time being 10',V10-
able for the conduct of
_public affairs. Moreover, the ,
posed Council must be a council of advice, not a couecl
ea
control. It is ssid that the persons who may be charge
with the management of affairs will choose those Wl°.ne
most obsequious, and most disposed to yield to the Ps!_tneeet
and prejudices of the Goveru went of the day. That is
4ect
the principle upon which any sensible man would aetene
his advisers. We must suppose that the Governutiee
would wish to be advised by these most competent, to. ee
advice, and so far from choosing a, councillors tnu
s
nu,
most likely to be subservient and flexible, they would
doubt deem it their duty as well as their interest to selec
those who, by their knowledge, experience, talent, 16,730
capacity wore meat certain to prove useful assistants 0;1,0
management of Indian affairs. It appears to me that
arrangement which we propose is that which is most o°o
ducive to the end which We have in view. J can quite
su n.
o,
derstand those who say that they are opposed to
ee
t
change. I may hold a different opinien, but I can. fe
ebt
(it
logical
process by which hon. gentlemen might arri
the conclusion that the present system is best, and i;f
to be continued. But that which I cannot understand ee
that ,gentlenen who think the eresent system is no: !Ts
best, and ought not to be continued—who think, o I:a,
contr .11, that it is defective in principle, and thatgreutf
vantage mast arise from transterring the governin.°D.,
'twist to the Crown— should pronounce that opintt°tren,
Parliament, dooming the Company by their condeniu"ttned
and yet should wish to continue the government so doubiee
for an indefinite period, and under circumstances in 'vetoer
the administration of India requires unity of actiontev:%st,
of execution, and singleness of purpose. (Cheers.) of the
then, that the house will not be led away by any °ented
sophistries wo have heat d. I trust it will not be da' as-
hy the phantom which the right hon, gentleman the in ese
her for Buckinghamshire has endeavoured to raise of 6°,4
imaginary call upon the public revenue of this country f 0
governmentthe pu p
heafslintdi Indian ni service.tsp
ewer
to
of
cbreetarsuee
ecdeisat7est
the expenditure of India—if you have reason to
then
the Governor-General for the time being—whYeetero
strengthen your home government, give it greater Pe," out,
of control, anti place it in direct contact with Parlie;eer ,
so as to enable the House of Commons to interfere wbe'esa t
necessary. What conflicting opinions we have
open 1.
Some gentlemen say there is not sufficient control ibe
that the 100
local government of India. Well, that control vict- the
furnised by bringing the responsible advisers of par'
Crown in regard to Indian affairs in direct contact telifted to
liatneet. But then those whore I should have exPeyl for
be ernbued with constitutional principles say,
dOh e, oh
heaven's asks, let not the House of Commons riled oey
ludian affairs ; there i t no tellin to what degree faction
pervert these questions to the public injury." I b°,,, 00 es to
deference to opinions from the other side of the 11",_1 Id°
the extent to which faction may be carried. (A tang; 'head ;
not pres me to question the assertions made upon the that
but, in spite of the feats entertained by hon, gentlern:ouetri
au Opposition may from factious motives injure theirn_tith.
for the purpose of weakening their opponents, and ZentarY,
eta ding, also, what I know to be the play of peralit,resse
tactics, I feel assured that the good sense of. tbd,..`
and that
Commons would prevent any attempts of that
ur 111(11 great benefit would arise to the interestS true;
empire from the vigilant supervision of Pat-Hansen,.
therefore, that the House will not be led away by either bee
eloquence which we have heard to-night, or the nlool:vinik
' aegurnont of the hon. member for Huntingdon. 13 I 'hoiD
saostlieddo,tthheaqt,utehsetigorneaitnbtuhlkeiorfotwhne pmeoinpdles,ofat:ldti s icmovueuterfotlet,oo
the deliberate conviction that the present complicated e;
of government ought not to continue—(hear, hear)--bollstbe
uo
as I do that now is the time for making the change__
delay ought to take place - that you ought not to hentleolie
action a government at home which is doomed byttit, tei%
opinion and by Parliamentary discussion—l trust
House will give us leave to bring in a Bill, the gera real
line of which I have explained, and willureose,."
serious attention upon its provisions, not
think, torn ,
d feating a measure which is calculated, as we
it a4
mote passingore
mote the public good, but for the purpose o
nd Yen ite
effective shapo. Let that course be adopted,
to say the change which we propose, should Parliament.,_e feco,
wisdom think fit to accomplish it, will do more for the
rests of our great emeire in the East than any oturt
could be suggested. bestow their
p n
but
Mr; NEWDEGATE rose to address the House, an
received with such loud' and general cries of "ole WO
" Divide 1" that, after making a few remarks vane"
totally inaudible, he was obliged to desist. lea
The House then divided upon the question that
given to bring in the Bill, when there appeared— 319
........................................ ,
Noes ..?jam d
.
Majority ".iced................ with 1°
The announcement of the numbers was wee,
cheers.
The House adjourned at
five
'oleck.

g,,livs.park? nthethweifle6otlif
Lieut.-Colonel
BIRTHS. ~,,, Vt
BIDDITLFII
Royal Artillery, .of a son. 13 Ow
LOWTHER-- On the 16th inst., at Ampthill-parlto --e
-CaotloBneCl
shire, the Hon. Mrs. W. Lowther, of a son. f Ijeria
LOWRY—On the Lth inst., At Ventnor, the wife &-
tenant-Colonel Lowry, 47th Regt , of a daughter4ooS'
ROBINSON—On the 14th inst., at 23, Brornpton-e'"
the wife of J. C. Robinson Esq., of a sou.
MARRIAGES. gad'
M`SHANE--MoßuissoN—On the 16th inst., strLton, tg
hues. tAer:pi3Vor:
lobone Church, John M`Shane, Esq., ot Br.gb, 9614
Linn, Ann, fourth daughter of Robert Morrissoll
of the Audit Office, Somerset.house. t irkliriag:
TioURNALL —IIOVirES -On the 16th inst., a" ii, PS f
borough, .I'.; oi that° ptonsbire, William Thur",,hter -
of Bedford, to Katherine Rawlin., second dW"
Thomas Howes, Esq., of Northampton.

DEATHS. o°l4
BENNETT—On the 16th inst., at Hastings, the net.. C°l3.
Bennett, M.A., evening lecturer at St. Michell'
bill, aged 55. Pe.
13R BAINIDGE—On the 17th inst., at Trinity C0%1,101"
therhithe, Mr. Joseph Bainbridge, late of. 1"
Cumbeiland, aged 68. 0511°
EnvirenDa—On the rith inst., at 31 a • C ntoburd
Maida-vale, Gilbert J. Edwards, aged 70.
FITZROY—Oa the IGth inst., in Half-mOOO-s""' 61'
dilly, Sir Chailes Augustus F't C• 13" sig../°d
aroy, •

LONDON ; Printed and Publishod by fiitTlW° -., 14°'
of No, 112, Strand, Printsr, at Tilt San
- Stand, in the Precinct of ths Savoy, 10 the
of Alid(iiesex, Friday, February 19, Iq.3'