The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-13 00:00:00

to believe that had there lately been no change of Govern-
ment an additional 3s. per week would have been granted
to these hard-working operatives ; and he therefore ap-
pealed to the present Alinistay whether they would not
fitly inaugurate their advent to power by doing an act of
justice to an humid° bat deserving class ? The men com-
plained that they had been deprived of a superannuation
pension of 151. per annum which they formerly enjoyed ;
and they asked why it was that they were the only class
of Government employes to whom this advantage was
denied': At present one or two Lords of the Admiralty
walked round Woolwich Dockyard periodically, and picked
out annually five or six, or at the most seven poor labour-
ers broken down with ago and infirmities, and recommended
them for a pension of 121. a-year. Bat this was an entirely
voluntary and spontaneous act, there being no regular sys-
tem of superannuation on which the meu could depend.
It might be said that the measure he recommended would
cost the nation 20,0001. per annum ; but he confidently
believed that the public would not grudge such a sum to
maintain these poor men and their families iii comparative
decency and comfort. He regretted that it was not com-
petent for him to divide the house on this subject ; but he
trusted that the appeal which he now made would be gene-
rously responded to.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could give no distinct pledge, but
he would take the whole subject into consideration, and
should be ready to do anything for these men which could
be done consistently with the interests of the pubiic ser-
vice. He reminded hon. ma:abers that all these discus-
sions might be renewed on a subsequent occasion, and sug-
gested thatno further questions should be raised, but that
the house should be allowed to proceed as early as possible
to the consideration of the Indian Loan Bill. (Hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that this was merely a question
of demand and supply, and it ought not to be settled either
at the Admiralty or any where else on any other principles
than those of sound political economy. The late Board
had no intention even of considering the subject, and he
hoped that a similar course would be followed by the pre-
sent one. If the right hon. baronet held out any hopes of
an increase of wages ho would be overwhelmed with
petitions from all the dockyards.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could assure the hon. member for
Dover that he had not intended to hold out any hopes.
His promise of consideration referred rather to the question
of superannuation than to that of waves, and ho had care-
fully guarded himself by intimating that in whatever he
did he must have regard to the interests of the public
service. Now, he was afraid that if men could be obtained
for 135., it would be rather hard to prove that it was for
the interest of the public service to pay them 163.
Mr. WHITE was quite ready to accept the inexorable
rules of political economy, if they were applied in all cases;
but, without disparaging the labours of the late Secretary
of the Admiralty, he had no doubt that a person could have
been found who would discharge the duties of that office,
he would not say as well as they were discharged by the
hon. member for Dover, but certainly for much lower
wages. (A laugh.) If the strict rules of political economy
ware not applied in the higher branches of her Majesty's
service, he did not sea why they should be so rigidly
enforced in the lower ones.
Sir E. PERRY said that the hon. member for Dover
had in his remarks done great injustice to his late chief,
because during the last year the wages of the labourers
were increased Is. a week. When these wages were origi-
nally fixed they were rather above those of agricultural
labArers. Since then there had been a general increase in
the rate of wages, and they were now below the rate paid
to the same class of workmen.

Mr. W. S. LINDSAY agreed with the hon. member for
Dover that this was a mere question of demand and supply,
awl ought n)t to be considered upon any other prin-
ciples.

General CODRINGTON thought the question was whe-
ther the wages were high enough to induce the best class
of labourers to do the work of the Government. He
doubted whether that question could be answered in the
affirmative.

Sir J. iILPHINSTONE admitted that the Government
could get plenty of men to enter their service for 13e. a-
week, but they would not obtain the best labour for that
money. In addition to their low rate of wages it should
be recollected that the families of the dockyard labourers
were tied to certain spots where the local burdens, in con-
sequence of the Government not contributing to the sup-
port of the poor, were excessively high. He would take
another opportunity of referring to the subject.
Mr. STUART supported the vote. The rate of wages
had fallen considerably during the last few months, and if
13s. a-week was deemed sufficient a year ago there was no
reason for increasing it now.
Mr. GLADSTONE hoped the Committee would look
with jealousy upon applications from the representatives
of particular towns for an increase of wages among their
constituents. It had been said that the Government paid
13a. a-week and did not get good work for it. Were they
quite sure that they could improve the quality of the work
merely by raising the rate of wages ? It seemed to him
that the difficulty lay deep in the nature of Government
establishments. A labourer was apt to go into one of those
establishments with very different sentiments and feelings
from those with which he entered into the service of a
private owner. When he went to serve a private indivi-
dual he knew that he must stand upon his own merits,
and that his work would fetch its real value but no
more. On the other hand, ho obtained admission to a
Government establishment generally by solicitation ; the
whole course of his ideas was dislocated, so to speak, by
the manner in which ho got there, and it was wrong to
suppose that by merely raising the rate of wages we
could secure a supply of good labour. How that dif-
faulty was to be overcome he would not undertake to say ;
but he believed the wise and practical conclusion would be
to have no Government establishments whatever for manu-
factures, except in cases where they were absolutely neces-
sary. No Government could carryon manufactures except
at a great disadvantage, and he trusted, without meaning
the slightest reproach to hon. members, whose duty it was
to stand up manfully fur the interests of their constituents,
the House would receive with a jealousy proportioned to
their fidelity and zeal the representations which they made
in favour of increasing the wages of their local friends.
(Hear. hear.)
Sir F. BARING was sorry to say that he had often in-
curred no small degree of unpopularity by telling his con-
stituents that the members for dockyard towns did more
harm than good by pressing for au increase of wages. He
was not surprised that an ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer
hod met the demand for such an increase by saying " Dis-
miss all your dockyard labourers, and get the work douo
by private contract." Such, lie was convinced, would be
the result if the expanse of the dockyards were very con-
siderably augmented. At the same time the dockyard
men did their work fairly and well, and during the late war
their zeal and energy were conspicuous. (Hear, hear.)
The vete was then agreed tu.
A vote of 20,000/., ou account, for the wages of artificers,
labourers, and others employed in establishments abroad,
was also agreed to.
On the vote of 600,0001. for defraying the expenses of
naval stores for the building, repair, and outfit of the fleet,
and for the purchase of steam machinery,
Sir C. NAPIER said, we were now building the finest
fleet in the world, but there was one point to which he
wished to direct the attention of the Government. It was
a fact—a fact which the present Emperor of the French
was one of the first to discover—that an iron-sided ship
was far more capable of resisting shells than a timber one.
He believed that a frigate of twenty guns lined with
iron four inches thick could in a very short time
destroy a three-decker of 100 pine. We had not yet dis-
covered any means of preventing iron ships from fouling,
and he could not help thinking that the Government ought
to offer a handsome reward for the accomplishment of that
object.
The vote was agreed to.
A vote of 250,0,10/. for new works, improvements, and
repairs was pasted without discussion.
The following sums was also taken on account :--
20,0001. for medicines and medical stores.
30,0001. for miscellaneous services.
300,0001. for half-pay, reserved half-pay, and retirement
to officers of the Navy and Royal Marines.
200,0001. for military pensions and allowances.
70,000/. for civil pensions and allowances.
250,000/. for conveyance of troops.
40i,0001. for the packet service.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
- - - - • -

General PEEL, who was very indistinctly heard in the
reporters' gallery, said that in accordanse with thi.i agree-
ment into which the house had entered he should merely
ask the committee to vote the whole number of men for
the army, and a portion of the money upon each of the
other votes. The vote for the number of men might per-
haps require some short explanation. The number he
should ask the committee to vote on the present occasion,
exclusive of the Indian establishment, was 130,135, as
against 126,796 voted last year, showing an increase of
3,339 men. But this by no means showed the true state of
the army. The total strength of Her Majesty's forces, in-
cluding the troops in India, had increased from 156,993
men in last year to. 22'2,874 required for the present year ;
the increase being 65, eBl. This arose from the number of
troops sent from this country to India. The force charge-
able to the East India Company, including the depots at
home, would be for this year 92,739 as against 30,197
last year, showing au increase on the East India
Company's establishment of no less than 62,542
men. There had been sent to India last year, when the
India establishment was voted, four regiments of
cavalry and 24 regiments of infantry, and there wire now
there 11 regiments of cavalry and 60 regiments of infantry.
There had been sent out seven additional regiments of
cavalry and 36 additional battalions of infantry, thus re-
ducing the force of the home establishment by that num-
ber. It was intended to meet the withdrawal of that
force by raising 26 new battalions of infantry, and two
additional regiments of cavalry, and this accounted for the
increase in the present year of 3,330 men over the number
voted in the last year, for though there was a reduced
number of regiments the strength of each had been in-
creased. He did not know what the increase was in the
cavalry, but in the infantry it was from 840 to i5O. It
was, however, an extraordinary fact that though the
number ofmen was increased the payment was absolutely
less than in last year. This arose from the number of
regiments sent to India, for the pay of the colonels then
became chargable to the East India Company, and the new
battalions had no colonels, while the number of the non-
commissioned officers was not increased but diminished.
Therefore there was a decrease this year in the whole sum
to be voted for pay and allowances of 706,9901. He was
happy to say that the recruiting was going on at present
time in a more favourable manner than lie could by possi-
bility have anticipated. (Hear, hear.) During the time of
the Crimean war he believed that the greatest number of
enlistments in any ono month was about 6,000, but in the
last month the enlistments had amounted to 7,500. (Hear.)
There had been enlisted, including recruits for the East
India Company, at the rate of 6,000 men a month, snaking
36,000 enlistments during the last six months. (Roar.)
The gallant general concluded by moving the vote for the
number of men.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS expressed his surprise that after
the enormous sums of money voted for barracks the accom-
modation in them should be exceedingly defective. If the
money had been expended honestly all the bairacke which
were required to accomesodate the army during the last
war ought now to be in an efficient state.
Mr. ALCOCK said it was, he b :lieved, generally under-
stool that the East India Company supplied bedding and
clothing gratuitously to the Queen's troops employed in
India, but be had beet informed by a relative that in
some cases the only clothing supplied consisted of two
linen cape, while the s ldiers were required to pay half
thecost of their bedding_.
Sir J. TRELAWNY complained that the brigade of
Guards, which was a very strong force, was entirely
exempted from colonial duty. It was suspected that the
reason of this exemption was that the officers of the
Guards were more or less connected with the aristocracy,
and wore appointed by the colonels of tho regiments of
Guards, and not upon the responsibility of the War De-
partment, He thought it desirable that battalions of the
Guards should be sent to Madras, Calcutta, and Bombay,
as the young officers of the brigade would than have al;
opportunity of seeing something of the world, and of
acquainting themselves with their professional duties. He
thought, also, that such a change would be beneficial to
the health of the men, for he believed that from lone resi-
dence in London they contracted bad habits, which might