The Sun.
London, England, 1867-08-02 00:00:00

ID

G,

I

the bill and the long delays in its conception, which bad
prevented their ]ordsbips considering the mattes sooner,
said they were now told on the Ist of August that, if they
considered this matter as they ought to consider it,' with
a view to its final settlement, the bill might have to be
abandoned altogether. This was placing the House of
Lords in a painful and even humiliating position. lie was
most sincerely desirous of a settlement of the question of
Reform, but tkis was not the way to, settle it. His lord-
ship went onto say that it would, in his opinion, bo a very
serious evil to the country indeed if the bill was passed
without a general Redistribution of scats being finally
settled, and no room left for further alterutions or agitation
on the subject.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was of opinion that the
Government scheme afforded as good a pause and resting-
place as they were ever likely to get on this subject. He
had not heard a single objection made to their plan as far

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MEMOIR of WILLIAM EDMONDSTOLJNE
ArrvilN, D.C.L , Author of "Lays of the Scottish
Cavaliers," a C.
By THEODORE I'AILTIN.
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E
•

OSBORNE'S STILTON•

Is THE Cheese!

their general purpose was concerned. All that had been
urged against it was that some of their lordships thought
it did no go far enough. He did not and could not see why
if stopping at a limit of 10,000 was not a final settlement
the limit of 12 should be considered final. There was no
reason offered for stopping at 12,000, or why that number
should be considered more satisfactory than that which
had been chosen by the House of Commons after careful
consideration and mutual compromise. It would be wis-
dom not to disturb that settlement, but allow time to show
whether the country was not satisfied with what had been
done. Ho objected very strongly to the amendment, as it
really upset everything and settled nothing ; still more
strongly did he object to it on the ground of its uncertainty
as to the mode of distributing the seats proposed to be ob-
tained. Lord Grey had no right to force upon the Go-
vernment the performance of a duty which was a task
which properly belonged to himself. If a complete scheme
of this kind were brought forward, he, for himself, did not
care how much labour it would entail if they could pass
it; but it was impossible to class the present crude amend-
mad in the cafegory of finished plans.
Lord CARNARVON explained the reasons which would
induce him to support Lord Grey's amendment. He was
in favour of the system of grouping boroughs. It had
worked well both in England and Wales, and had almost
put an end there to bribery. The more important ques-
tion was how they intended to distribute the seats they
gained. It was proposed to give them to great and im-
portant constituencies, both county and borough, not one
of which was touched under the bill of her Majesty's Go-
vernment.
Lord CARDIGAN expressed his intention of voting for
the bill as it stood, and begged that, when it had nearly
reached its final stage, another bill would not, at the last
moment, be substituted for it, involving months of labour
and increased agitation; and Lord Airlie twitted the Go-
vernment with the firmness with which they adhered to
what they called their compact with the house when
Liberal amendments were proposed, and the ease with
which they threw it overwhen changes of the most sweep-
ing kind were bi ought, for ward by Conservatives.
Lord STANHOPE had no difficulty as to which way he
was to vote on this occasion, for he looked on the amend-
ment as not nearly so much intended toimprove the bill as
to injure the Government. The plan of grouping had been
the death of the last. bill, and would have been the death of
this had it been adopted ; yet at the last hour they were
called upon to adopt this grouping plan in its most objec-
tionable form, and coupled with an extensive scheme of
disfranchisement. He could not believe in any statesman
bringing forward such a measure at such a moment. It
was not of the lateness of the Session of which he com-
plained, for while there was public work to do their
lordships were bound to sit and do it; but it was the
scope and mischievous tendency of the amendment, cutting
up the country into three-cornered constituencies, to which
ho olojected, and he most certainly should record his vote
against it.
Lord KIMBERLEY thought the motion had been
brought under their notice in a most careful, moderat-,
and statesmanlike manner. No greater misfortune could
happen to this country than that they should constantly
be debating and altering its Constitution, and this was
certain to be the case for some time to come unless a total
settlement wero'mado of the Redistribution plan now. It
was not douo by the pt:Pseut bill, and the amendment
would remedy this defect, and then fora he should sup-

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port it.
Lord FORTESCUE expressed his approval of the
amendment, and
Lord GRANVILLE said tha►, so far from this bill being
considered as finally setting the Redistribution scheme,
such a merit was not even claimed for it by its most par-
tial advocates. It Was, on the contrary, suggested by the
Lord Chancellor that they should wait for two or three
years to see how the people took it. If they went on with
this bit by bit Reform, there really would bo.no end to the
question or the agitation it would give rise to. His lord-
ship drew an amusing parallel between the condition of
the Conservatives and the volunteers who went to defend
Chester Castle, and who did not know whether they were
entitled tc defend the Castle, their arms, or even them-
selves. He then went on to blame this part of the bill,
and intimated that her Majesty's Government knew their
duty too well to abandon the measure because their lord-
ships might see fit, after mature deliberation and debate,
to strenghten the bill where it was weakest, and confirm
its finality on a most important point.
Lord DERBY replied, briefly complaining of the time at
which the amendment was brought forward, and above all,
of the incompleteness of the proposal. Ho repeated that
if this measure was now forced upon the Government it
would be his duty to ask the committee to report progress
until he could consult his colleagues as to the course they
might deem it consistent with their honour to pursue.
Lord GREY said that to complain of the time at which
ho brought his motion forward was most unreasonable,
inasmuch as so early as March last he had taken the op-
portunity of stating his views on Reform, and on that oc-
casion Lord Derby had rebuked him as being premature.
After pointing out what he considered the merits of his
plan—its completeness and its definite character—he went
on to criticise with ;keen irony of
.manner the concluding
threat, as he' termed it, of Lord Derby, which, if it
was a threat., he said, was one which would only have in-
fluence on those of the smallest political experience. He,
however, denied that it was in the power of Lord Derby
to take so extreme a step as to drop tho bill and plunge
the country into renewed excitement, especially when he
was sure the decision of the Peers would be supported by
the public fooling and opinion of the country.
Their Lordships then divided on the question that the
words "ten thousand" stand part of the clause, when there
appeared--

Contents •
No*contents 86
Majority 12
Lord GREY'S amendment was therefore rejected.
On clause 16,
Lord LYDEDEN said he was convinced that without
some disfranchisement of the smaller boroughs any re-
distribution of seats would do little good. He moved that
all boroughs under 5,000 population should be disfran-
chised. He asked their lordships to consider his motion
well before it became a violent public question. There
was not an amendment which they had adopted which
was not a Conservative amendment. This was an oppor-
tunity for them to show their impartiality.
After a few words from Lord ARLYNDELL,
Tho house divided, when there were
Contents
Non-contents
Majority
The original clause was then agreed to, as were also the
clauses up to 27 inclusive.
The house then resumed, and the other orders of the
day having been disposed of, their lordships adjourned at
five minutes to 12 o'clock.

Tx:
MSPlLEALicaEsßkteodotkhethAetctohraniret7t-tG4:::ecralo:kw.
HOUSE OF COMMONS—LAST EVENING.
hether ho bad
THE JAMAICA RIOT.
taken into consideration the evidence produced at the trials
by court-martial lately held in ibllnfliCa
and on Ensign C
it was
ullen
and Staff-Assistant Surgeon Morris, whether
his intention to institute proceedings against those officers
in the ordinary tribunals of this country.
The ATTOTINEY-CIENtIIAL said be had considered
the evidence referred to, and he had to say that it was not
his intention to advise Her Majesty's Government to insti-
tute any proceedings againsi. those gentlemen.
THE NAVAL REVIEW.
Mr. GRAVES asked the rimt Lord of the Admiralty
the number of royal naval reserve men who took part in
tke late naval review; and, if any report had been made
on their conduct and effi mi
ciency, to state the nature of same,
together with any reasons which ht have been given
for non-attendan.
• Mr. CORRY said the number of reserve men, exclusive
ce
of officers, who took part in the naval review was 450.
given or asked for as to non-
No reasons were either g
attendance. The attendance of the
men was quite volun-
-1 tarp.

PATAGONIA.
Lir. GREGORY asked the Secretary of State for Foreign
report had recently been received as
Affairs whether any rep
to the present condition and prospects of the W elsh colony
in Patagonia ; and, if so, whether there was any objection
to its production and publication ?
Lord STANLEY said the attempt to found the colony
had been attended with much difficulty, but, according to
latest inforthation, matters were improving. The Argen-
tine Government had determined to continue the subsidy
for twelve months longor, and if it should in that period
be resolved to continue the efforts to found a s tletti
er aement,
lands would be offered by the Argentine Confedon to
colonists in the interior,

/

PRICE.... 4d.

STAMPED sd.

:THE IRISH ESTABLISHED CHURCH..
Mr. MONSELL asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether he could state the names of the Commissioners
appointed to inquire into the revenues of the Established
Church ; and when he would lay upon the table of the
house the instructions to be given to the commission?
Lord NAAS said he could not give the hon. gen•lornan
the information he reinirod at that moment, but he hoped
to be in a position to do so next week.
UNIVERSITY EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Mr. FAWCETT asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether he would give a promise that Parliament shall be
consulted, and its opinion expressed, before either a charter
is granted to a Roman Catholic University, or before the
Government sanctions any other scheme affecting univer-
fity education in Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
subject would be treated in a constitutional manner, but
he refused to enter into any promise at the bidding of the
hon. gentleman.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL.
The next question on the paper was the following, to be
put by Mr. WHALLEY, "To ask the right hon. member for
the University of Cambridge whether the Select Com-
mittee on the Ecclesiastical Titles and Roman Catholic
Rolief Acts were about to close their inquiry without hear-
ing evidence in support of the present law? and why the
evidence of the Rev. Mr. M'Ghee, which has been offered
in support of the present law, had not been taken ?"
The SPEAKER said he did not call upon the hon. mem-
ber to put his question, because it referred to a matter at
present before a select committee which had not yet made
its report

.; 5P4 PER
*7V •
!RIR • THE PUBLIC 4( •
•
TIMES.—" It is the first of AugUkt*Cill
cipal argument of Lord Derby and of hi
last night. "It is the first of A • t"A i •
August," , dtook
late to do anything more than is proposed in the
Reform Bill as it stands. " It is the first of August,"
and if an amendment be carried the Government
will have seriously to consider what course they
shall pursue. The argument and the threat told
in a way to convince every impartial observer how
completely the judgment of the House of Lords was
at variance with the decision cf the Ministry. Iu
spite of the fact, reiterated with 6' damnable itera-
tion," that it was the first of August —in spite of
the MCII3C3 which is deearcl not to have been a
menace, though delivered with all the solemuit) and
producing all the effect which could ever characte-
rise the most solemn menace in the world, 86 peers
supported Lord C-rey's amendment for the extension
of the redistributi.m scheme of the Reform Bill,
against 98 who voted for the Government. The
ties of office and of party allegiance, the supremacy
NoVfhLicohrdsLo:cdouDledrbdyo hnaos enjoyedasioolroentehaa
h tl
houseithea -
ra b
membersm aj ordietcyl i on fe
dto
twelve
reoi npena haonuas ee of this—that
enlarge
ge tnearlyhe 200
pro-
posals of redistribution which have ei already
enlarged by the House of Commons in defiance of a
reluctant Government. As to argument against
Lord Grey's amendment, there was none. ‘lt is
the first of August," said Lord Derby.most
whom
Cairns—upon
must be directly charged the small transfer of votes
which gave the Government their feeble victory,
wrapped up the same plea in more voluminous dis-
guises, but the argument is the same. Lord Cairns
did, indeed, profess that he would have preferred a
larger scheme of redistribution as more states-
manlike and more Conservative ; and he opposed
the amendment of the Government plans upon the
simple ground of the dangers which might ensue
should the Government prove restiff. The especial
defenders of the Constitution—the leadine members •
of the Conservative Ministry—appearecr to forget
that, if the late period at which the Reform Bill had
reached the House of Lords were to be attributed as
a matter of blame to auy one, it must be laid to the
charge of the Ministry themselves, and that in any
case their arguments tended to the extinction of the
House of Lords as a branch of the Legislature co-
ordinate with the House of Commons. Lord Grey's
amendment was singularly simple. He proposed to
take a member apiece from each of twelve boroughs
now returning two members, and having a popula-
tion of between 10,000 and 12,000. This was the
amendment upon which the vote was taken. Had
it been accepted, however, he would have
rgoneas
an
on
to obtain eleven more seats by grouping, or
alternative by disfranchising, the boroughs contain-
ing less than 5,000 inhabitants. The 23 seats thus
to obtained he placed, of course, at the disposal
of the Government, but' he very properly indicated
a complete plan of distributing them. Three he
desired to give to a new constituenc—the barrister
s
of the Inns of Court; twelve as third members to
each of twelve counties and divisions of counties
numbering more than 150,000 inhabitants ; eight to
as many boroughs—Bristol, Sheffield, Wolverhamp-
ton, and the five metropolitan boroughs of Lamouth-
beth,
Westminster, Marylebone, Finsbury, and S
wark. As we have said the Government had not a
fragment of argument to urge against these p-
posals, but some phrases they could and did etnploy.
Who, asked Lord Derby, has ever beforeugges
sted
such a plan of redistribution as is now pronounced.
essential to Teace? The limit of 10,000 was the;
lowest limit of boroughs containing two members
prescribed in the bill of 1854, which dent further
than any ther in recommending a transfer of seats.
But we have advanced since,lBs4. Who has ever
before proposedected the househotruth ld suffthat it is irage? Lo
mpossiblerd Derby
altogether negl
to make an essential change in one branch
other of
com-
our
eepresentative system, and to leave the
paratively unaltered. The franchise and the distri-
bution of seats must move together. This was the
doctrine insisted upon with unimpeachable argu-
ments last year, and it remains true now, however
convenient it May be be to forget it. We shall
thnoat
t
resign it, however often we m ay assured
Barnstaple, Beverley, Bridgwater, and the rest are:
thriving, growing, populous, and,
pure. The ex-
tended scope of Lord Grey's scheme was justified
by the extended scope, of. the Enfranchising Clauses,,
and the decision arrivd at reluctantly by the House
of Lords against its better judgmant loaves un-
guarded a weak defence, which be the objghout
ect of
immediate assault. Bat always, and
the apologii,s of the Government, appeared t f
he pl .a
6' it is the first of Aug is
of and i any
change he made, even for the better, the
house of Commons must be censulted. << It
H
is the first of August," an a sort of
around swell of approval responded to the well-used
phrase. We should have been more ready to receive
this defence for inaction, dishonourable as it is to
the House of Lords, were it consistently acted upon.
But who, we ask, have most outrageously disre-
garded it? If we review the progress of the bill
through committee, we find tint to the Ministry
must be attributed the most important occasion of
conflict with the Commons, the most threatening
source of protracted discussions' prolonged con-
ferences, and loss of time. When Lord Cairns
proposed to raise the lddger franchise froth £lO to
£ls—a proceeding as unwise in its inception as it
will probably prove unsuccessful in its sequel—he
had no sooner ceased than Lord Malmesbury jumped
up and assented to the proposal. He did it, indeed,
as a compromise ; but not even Lord Malmesbury's
ingenuity could explain btween what conflicting
elements it was a compromeise. The truth is that the
plea against extending the Redistribution scheme
on account of the time which must be occupied
in settling it is thoroughly unreal. No one
knew better than the Ministerial advocates who
advanced the argument that no time whatever
would be wasted except by the Government itself.
The House of Commons would not occupy an
hour in assenting to an extended scheme of Re-
distribution. The Ministry has throughout been
the impediment to action on a broad scale, and if
the opposition of the Ministry were removed all ob-
stacles would vanish. Lord Derby had another plea.
Lord Grey, he said, asked the House to disfran-
chise certain boroughs, but the Government bad
always gone on the principle of ascertaining what
places should be enfranchised before Ammar©cons
g
where disfranchisement should begin. We
that Mr. Disraeli avowed this principle in the House
of Commons. We are aware that Mr. Gladstone
approved it. All the same we venture to declare--
we use Lord Derby's own vigorous phrase" that
it is absolute nonsense," and that no Ministry ever
has, or ever could, proceed on such a principle. En-
franchisement and disfranchisement are simply two
sides of the same transaction, which is a transfer of
a respective privilege front one community to
another ; and uo statesman could ever propose the
transfer without having in his mind at the same
instant the relative claims of the two constituencies.
It is as rational to talk of trying to balance the
weights at the end of a beam
talk attending only to
what is put in one scale as to of enfranchising
one borough without considering the disfranchise-
ment of another. As the Duke of Argyll well
pointed out, the Government have by their action
flatly contradicted the professed but impossible
rinciple. They proposed to enfranchise certain
northern
boroughs. The House of Commons pro-
osed to confer additional seats on certain large
towns, and the Government consented. Had they
acted upon the principle they had before and now
put forward, this acquiescence could not have inter-
fered with the enfranchisement of the northern
boroughs, because their claims to enfranchisement
had been independently considered. It could only
have produced a further disfranchisement. We
know that it did not. The Ministry, being not
wholly unwise in their acts, however distracteith d
they may be in their motives of action, w-
drew the proposal to enfranchise those boroughs
which bad established an independent claim to
that re-
presentation, and which may be expected, now
their claims have been acknowledged by Conserva-
tive Ministers, to clamour for a confirmation of the
privileges promised only to be withheld. The Go-
vernmeve withstood a practical an safe pro-
posal fnt ha
the tra.nsformatioa of theird scheme of
or
Redistribution into a rmanent shape, and a
pe
majority of twelve have supported them.
So pitiful,
a victory in spite oernery effort of Ministerial whips
to secure it, and th ost solemn warnings of the
consequences were it not secured, is a defeat. The
Government said they would have seriously to con-
sider their position in reference to the bill were the
amendment carried. We have heard these threats
before. There is nothing in them, though repeated
for an hour's duration. spa has the Government
not . yielded to secure the sing of their Bill?
What would they not yield which can by any pos-
sibility be proposed ? Who would lose by the re-
jection of the measure now ofs this we may be sure
much as themselves ?
Much may be uncertain, but
—that they will be successful, and yet, though suc-
cessful, little of the credit of victory will be theirs.
They have resisted when they could ; they have
yielded when they must ; and refusing to meet the
wishes of Parliament by making their Bill worthy
of the occasion, and obviating the certainty of re-
newed agitation, they have shown how littlewisdom
the events of the session have taught them.

BIARRIAGE LAW COMMISSION.----We understand
that the report of this conuniision will not be ready till the
beginning of licit year.

,v%;