The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-28 00:00:00

E V ENING,

fault. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving for I
leave to bring in his bill.
Mr. BYNG seconded the motion, because he was anxi-
ous that a sound and comprehensive measure of reform
should be passed; because it would enfranchise many
towns and unrepresented districts ; and because he be-
lieved, by so doing, they would enlarge the area of re-
presentation by the enfranchisement of a large class of
the community, honest and intelligent, who were en-
titled to the privilege of vat ng. (Hoar, hear.)
The CHINCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I have
no objection to urge against the purpose Lithe bill which
the hon. gentleman proposes to introduce. I have no ob-
j ectisn to extend the franchise which is enjoyed at pre-
sent by counties, and I think an extension of the fran-
chise may improve its exercise. I have no prejudice what::
ever to the general purpose of the motion of the hon. gen-
tleman to extend the franchise in c unties in England
and Wales, and to improve the representation of the
people in respect of such franchise; but there are several
considerations which induce me to think that the intro-
duction of such a measure may rather prove a source of
embarrassment to those who seriously intend and wish to
improve the franchise. We have heard from the hon.
gentleman his description of his own bill which he seeks
to bring in. He saysit is a measure "small, honest, and
just," the tendency of which wi'l be to remove great ano-
malies. How stands the questisn of the general repre-
sent atien at the present moment in England? I speak
from memory, but in my general results I am not wrong.
Well, we have a certain number of members returned to
Parliament frem those counties with whose franchise the
hon. gentleman propesss to deal. We have 150 or 160
county members for England and Wales, and they are
returned to Parlie.mcnt by something more than half a
million of electors. We have, on the other hand, 320 bo-
raugh members, who are returned to Parliament by little
more than 400,000 electors. Those who are Parliamen-
tary reformers and approach this great question in an
impartial spirit will be struck with the impression that
the balance between the city and county representation
is not just, and it seems strange that half a million of
electors should only return 150 or 160 members, while
400,000 electors should return 330 members. (Hear.)
One might almost be disposed to say that this is one
among the anomalies to which the hon. gentleman has
referred. But what is the remedy which the hon. gentle-
man offers to us, ioecause he despairs that a great and
comprehensive measure on the subject may be submit-
ted, and because ,he says he can only take a measure
which is honest and just ? It appears to ms that the
course pursued by the hon. gentleman will not remove
the anomalies in the representative system which he

complains of, and, to use the language of the hon. gen-
tleman himself, improve the franchise of this country.
The house should consider well this question. If we are
to agree to the motion on the grounds upon which the,
hon. member has placed it we shall be sanctioning the
supposition that tee hops of a general improvement of the
franchise is impossible, and that the measure which we

are asked to sanction is just, small, and honest. While
we have a small number of members returned by large

constituencies, and a large number of members returned
by small constituencies, I find in the returns moved for
by the hon. member himself the inevitable inference that
if you make up your minds to deal with what the hon.
gentleman calls the extension of the franchise in this
country, you cannot deal wi.h it partially, and whatever
may be the objections urged against comprehensive mea-
sures, I am fully persuaded that when dealing with the
representation of a great people it is quite impossible by
small, honest, and just measures to effect anythiog but
that which is large in justice and vast in policy. Is the
house prepared for the slate of things which the hon.
gentleman contemplates ? At this moment, in the coun-
ties to which the hon. gentleman's motion alone refers,
every member of Parliament represents 3,300 electors ;
at this moment in the boroagh-, every member repre-
sents 1,280 electors. Unquestionably there are boroughs
where the preponderating influence is purely agricultural
and also counties where the great weight of the influence
is purely manufacturing, but that has nothing to do
with the question. Here we have to consider simply why
500,000 electors should at the present moment return
160 members to Parliament, and why 400,000 elector,
should return 330 members ; and a measure of Parlia-
mentary reform which we are told is " small, honest,
and just," is brought forward, which is to aggravate all
these circumstances, and increase the dispaoportion at
present existing. I ask, is the house prepared to sanc-
tion such a proceeding? (Hear.) If there is, as I believe
there is, a sincere desire on the part of the house to
promote a just and fair settlement of this long-mooted
and contested question, I cannot conceive how you can
take a more retrogade course thin by adopting the mo-
tion of the hoe. member. lam not opposed to an ex-
tension of the franchise in counties. I believe that a
large number of persons now resident in counties might
be admitted to the exercise of the franchise with
great advantage to the country.—(Hear, hear,)—but it
is impossible to resist the conviction, with the informa-
tion we have already upon this subject, that if you deal
with the county franchise you must also deal with the
franchise of the towns. (Cheers.) I cannot appeal to the
hon. member, as the noble lord at the head of the late
Government might have dove, because I have no politii
cal claim upon the hon. member, but I am bound, on the
part of the present Government to state, in vindication
of our position, and of the cause of truth, that the fair
representation of the people in the House of Commons
is a question which will undergo our deep and sincere
consideration—(cheers)—but, I cannot for a moment
hold out to the hon. gentleman the hope that it will be
at any time my duty to submit to the house a scheme
like that which he has brought before it this evening.
It adopted, it would only be a partial measure, and one
which must lead ;o great jealousy and public inconve-
nience. I cannot doubt that it would lead also to pro-
tracted agitation in the country. (Hear.) It appears
to the Government that the quo tion of a fair and ade-
quate representation of the people in Parliament is one
which must be considered as a whole. (Hear, hear.)
It is one which must be approached in a calm spirit, in
a temperate spirit, in a mood of mind very different
from that which in days long past accompanied the agi-
tation for the last Reform Bill carried in that house.
But still I cannot doubt that, with the knowledge which
this house now possesses, and with the desire which
exists in cll parts of the country and among all classes
of the people, we shall come to a safe and practical solu-
tion of the difficulties by which the question is sur-
rounded. But, sir, I cannot think that we are dealing
worthily with this great subject if we admit a bill like
this, which its proposer has himself designated as a
small, honest, and just measure, and almost as a final
measure.

I Mr. L. KING...—No, no.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—WeII,
then, at all events, as a substitute, for a final measure—
(murmurs from the opposition benches)--did not the hon.
gentleman say he despaired of any other measure than this
being.carried, because, he said, there was a general feel-
ing that no alternative would take place ? If the cir-
cumstances to which the hon. gentleman ref sra aro not
well founded—if there be a prospect of dealing with the
question fairly and honestly—then, I say, that the hon.
member is not justified in pressing his bill at this time.
I will not appeal to him on the grounel of any political
claim that I may have upon his attention, to withdraw
his bill ; but I am bound to say, representing the Go-
vernment, and on my own part, that I cannot sanction
the bringing forward of a measure which, if carried,
would inflict a greit injustice, and be a source of great
embarrassment fee future legislation. (Oh, oh, and
Miinsterial cheers.) On thelroueds, therefore, which I
base stated to the house, I cannot assent to the intro-
duction of the bill, and feel it to be my duty to meet the
motion of the hon. member by moving the previous
question. (Hear, hear, oh, oh, and laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, the right hon. gentleman
has based his opposition to the bill of my hon. friend the
member fey Surrey, upon two grounds. lie did not deny
that the franchise in the oouaties might be usefully t x-
tended. He did not deny that those persons with 101.
occupations were a respectable class and worthy to en-
j y the franchise. But the right hon. gentleman goes
oft in the first place on a distinction which he is very
fond of drawing, but a distinction which I always
thought entirely devoid of foundation, namely, that the
counties have a certain number of members and a certain
number of electors, and that the boroughs have also a
certain number of members and of electors. In the first
place, I believe that the right hoe. gentleman is entirely
mistaken in thinking that a straight line can be drawn
between the counties and the boroughs. I believe that
some of the counties—the metropolitan county and the
county of Lancashire—are so inhabited by persons en-
gaged in trade and carrying on busineor in towns, that to
all intents and purposes they constitute a town consti-
tuency. Oa the other hand I believe that there arc many
boroughs in agricultural counties which represent
little else than agricultural interests. (Hear, hear.)
Therefore I contend that there is 1.0 sound or substantial
ground for the distinction which the right hon. gentle-
man
attempts to draw. I remember Mr. Canning saying
that the line which separated parties was not a straight
line, but a serpentine line ; so I say that the line which
separates the constituencies of boroughs and counties is
not a straight line, but a serpentine one. I believe it a
happy circumstance for the country that it is so. In
other countries there aro sharp lines drawn, but I think
the mixture of interests and classes in this country is a
great advantage (Bette.) If the arguments and theory
of the right hon. gentleman were correct, they would
prove that, by the Reform Act, a great advantage was
given to the counties; becau3e, previous to the passing
of that act, the number of county members for England
were 80, and the number for Wa'es 12, whereas we in-
creased the whole number to 150. But we did not do
that with a view to the exclusive advantage of the agri•
cultural interest. So far from that, our main obj!ct
was to increase the influence of the great towns, such as
Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, certainly not to
give teem any preponderating influence, but to bring the
trading and manufactnring interests more nearly on an
equality with the agricultural interest. (Hear.) If the
theory of the right hon. gentleman were right, our pro-
ceeding in that case would have led to a very different
conclusion. With respect to the number of electors, the
right hon. gentleman Rays that there are 500,000 electors
in counties and only 150 members. Well, but if you add
to the number of the electors, you would not diminish,
but add to the veight and influence of the county mem-
bers. (Hear.) But then the right hon. gentleman goes
on to another argument, which, if I had heard it from
my noble friend the member for Tiverton, I Wight per-
haps have been disposed to listen to. The right hon. gen-
tleman tells us that we ought to take the question as a
whole. Well, I cannot find fault with that argument,
for I used it myself seven years ago, when I introduced
a reform bill. But we have bad some experi- nee dur-
ing the years that have elapied since then. I have in-
tredueed other bilis myself, but I found, as the right
hon. gentleman will find, and as any hon. gentleman
who may introduce such bills will find, that some diffi-
cult.; will arise from the very temperate and moderate
-spirit in which the matter is proposed to be dealt with. •
(Hear.) Though there might have been some inconve-
nience from the beat and sic fence which accompanied

the agitation for the bill of 1831, yet it had this advan-
tage that the great majority of the people being in favour
of the measure, as they were determined to have " the
whole bill, and nothing but the bill"—it gave an im-
petus to the majority in this house, and enabled us to
carry the measure in the other House of Parliament,
On the other hand, there were some practical disadvan-
tages from the extremely temperate, calm, and dispas-
sionate consideration which the right bon. gentleman
gave to it. In such times, when large measures were
introduced for improving our representation, then the
private interests in that house arose in their streng,th.
Each section, or class, or intereA fund, or supposed
themselves, injured by the proposed alterations they
united to oppose ; all these sections club .ed their grie-
vances and their objections, and the result of their oppo-
sition was either to throw the measure out altogether or
to throw such obstructions in the way that it practically
came to the same thing. Sir, the last gill I withdrew
proposed great and, as I believe, beneficial changes, but
because it embodied a provision for the representation of
minorities, which was exceedingly obnoxious to the hon.
member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) who called it a
trick, I experienced such an opposition that I was cim-
pelled to withdraw the bill. I was ex'remely enrorised at
the objections raised to that particular part of the mea-
sure, and more so that the other portions, to which no
objection was made, should not have been retained. But
if these things were true, and if such are the difficulties
attendant npon the introduction of a large measure, of
which my bon, friend does not despair. but has great doubts
—(a laugn)—is it not better to take the proposition of my
hon. friend in itself, which I believe will, in practice,
be found to be one which no person can object to, and
which meets the approbation of a very large number of
nersons of respectability, whose soundness of judgment
few will be ready to dispute, and thereby extend the basis
of our representation and strengthen our constitution.
(Cheers.) By so doing we shall increase the confidence of
the country, which is one of the great objects of a reform
bill. (Hear, hear.) But then the right hon. gentleman
speaks with a very natural doubt and hesitation with re-
gard to any particular measure of reform which he himself
intends to introduce. Why, Sir, I have a very strong im-
pression as to what was declared by the present Prime
Minister on taking office. He said, speaking in the bold
and manly evey in which be is accustomed t express his
views, that the question of reform had been kept too
long dangling before Parliament, but beyond that he did
not go. He took care to say that, if he came forward next
session and said that he had no scheme to improve the
existing state of the representation, he could not be
taunted with having broken any promises or vi,,lated
any pledges. (Hear.) If that is the case, and seeing that
t is so difficult for a Minister with a large majority in

this house, and without any great ardour in the country,
to carry a reform bill, and add to that a Minister whose
majority is doubtful, and whose mind is so extremely
apathetic and lukewarm on the subject as that of the
present Prime Minister, I must say that my doubts very
much exceed my hopes. (Cheers.) I therefore think tl!e
safe course for the house will be at once to accept this
bill. (Hear, hear.) I think the one bird in the hand of my
hon. friend the member for Surrey is preferable to the
bird in the bush of the right hon. gentleman—(laughter)
—and therefore I shall give my cordial assent to the in-
troduction of this bill. (Cheers.)
Mr. LA.BOUCHERE should not have spoken but for
the charge of insincerity against the Earl of Granville
thrown out by she hon. member for Surrey. Thestatement
of Earl Granville was that the members of the late Go-
vernment did not intend to support the bill and move
amendments in committee, and it was alleged that this
could not be so, as the bill had not been brought in.
He repeated that it was true that they bad come down
to the house with the intention of supporting the bib
and moving amendments in committee, but they found
that they could not move those amendmonts, and then
they altered their course. The hon. member had intro-
duced a bill in the previous session, and the motion
being in the same terms they had assumed the bill would
be to the same effect. They were not now in precisely
the same position—(a laugh)—but he thought they were
justified in taking the coarse they had intended in the
former case—(cheers and counter cheer.) —and he for
one should vote for the introduction of the bill. (ChePrl
and counter cheers.) Ile thought as to the question of
a partial or general measure, be did not think either ab-

solutely wrong or absolutely right. If he had confidence
in the Government, ho would think it better that the
matter should he left in their hands ; but he must say,
with the noble lord the member for London, that he had
no great confidence that a measure would be introduced
next session which would be worthy the consideration
of the house. (Hear.) The Government having already
allowed a bill to be introduced touching the representa•
tion of the people in this house, they might witho.,t in-
consistency have assented to the introduction of the
bill; in fact, they had, as it seemed to him, debarred
themselves from opposing it. His chief obj,ct in rising
was to correct what he was pito sure was a misappre-
hension on the part of the hon. member as to the state-
ments of the Earl of Granville.
Mr. J. H. PHILLIPS, referring to the observation
of the nobie lord, that the greater number of voters
would give greater weight to the representation, would
like to ask the gentlemen who held the important officet
of marshalers of divisions whether, when a division ran
close, they cared more whether a voe, which turned a
majority, was given by a member returned by 500
voters or by 10,000. He went into details to show
the inequality of the representation, and expressed
a wish that representation was more connected with
taxation.. The tendency of the pressure of consti-
tuencies on the members was to increase expenditure.
There was indeed a desire to decrease general taxes' ion,
but to increase special expenditure. All the members
for the dockyard towns, for instance, were lately obliged
to vote for an injudicious and uncalled-for increase in

the rate of dockyard wages, in defiance of the laws of
prlitical economy, and interfering with the due opera-
tion of supply and demand. One of them, indeed, bad
stood out manfully, and refused to sanction it, no doubt
to the great diminution of his popularity with his con-
stituents, Anothe7 injurious action of the pressure of
constituencies on their members was that there was a
crowing disposition to what be should call giving the
British Lion an airing. (A laugh.) That noble beast,
however, could not go abroad without a great deal of
expense—(hear, and laughter)—and some of his esca-
pades were more costly than they were worth.
Mr. LOCKE said the point had been lost sight of in
the debate. There bad been minute calculations as to
the numbers of electors in counties and towns, but the
real question was whether the persons who would. be
enfranchised by the bill ware a proper class to be en-
trusted with the power of voting. Ile thought is was
hotter to take such questions one by one. There were
great difficulties in introt'ucing any large measure, which
Could hardly be ex iected to give satisfaction to a large
majority of the members. Some members considered
the ballot a sine qua non of any largo measure that
should be introduced. They thought that it was useless
to give the franchise to a large number of persons with-
out the protection of the ballot, and even that without
the ballet it would be better to disfranchise. No objec-
tion had been raised to the bill on principle. As to the
British lion being let loose, be was very glad of it, and
the British lion bad the approbation of all real reformere.
When they found that he had amongst his admirers at
ties same time the noble ler the member or London,
and the hon. member for Aehton-under-Lyne, it might
well be said that extremes met—(A laueli)—and when
the British lime returned to his lair he midkt retire in
comfort and satisfactior.
Mr. KNIGIEETLEY, who addressed the house in a
very low tone of voice, was understood to oppose the
drat bill, and said at many rural districts were very inade-
quately represented, and that i f any places should be de-
prived of representation it was the unimportant aed
nomination boroughs like Morpeth, Midhcrst, &o.
Mr. CLAY said that the only objection that had been
raised was that the bill- would increwe the exiting
anomalies; bat that appeared to him to be a recommen-
dation, f ir it :had always appeared to him that the more
glaring an ab-ase became the better was the chance of its
being remedied. He did the members for the counties
the justice to believe that they would not consider it any
grievance to be elected by a large constituency ; on the
contrary, he thnoght that the grievance would be on
the part of the borough members. The fact that a mem-
ber represented a large constituency did certainly en-
hance the respect in which he was held in that house.
The chief point: of consideration was, did the bill pro-
pose to admit a class deserving of representation ? Ho
believed that i t slid, and theref me he should support it
as an instalmen t of a large measure of reform.
Mr. DENTINCK said the right lion gentleman the
member for Taal nton had said that they ought to vote
black and white:recording to the circumstances in which
they were placed.. There was great caution in that de-
claration, but it was an extraordinary one. In this
question an ant agonism had been created between
borough and cow sty representation. The noble lord said
that the influericei of a member depended upon the num-
ber of his conseit cents. What did that mean ! That a
representative va ith a large constituency could give a
vote equal to tivo. The noble lord the member for
London repree Bated 20,000 constituents, and the noble
lord the mem bar for Tiverton represented 200, and yet
the influence of the two noble lords in that house was
about balance, I. (Hear, hear.) No doubt the repre-
sentation visas i n a very defective state, but he was not
prepared to giv hie support to this measure with a view
to amend it, as ;he believed it would lead to no practical
result.

Mr. COLLEVS, amidst, loud cries for a division, raid
the question they had to decide was whether the bill
would effectually amend the act of 1832. He did not
think it would, a ad therefore he could not support it.
It was a very popular thing to propose to swamp the
county constitut'ncies. If it was necessary to extend
the county franc? Ilse, why did they not add the house-
holders in counties to the boroughs to which they were
contiguous? 3Elt t was as anxious as any man to see a
reform of that :ho use, but he could not consent to such a
measure as tlsat 'which was now proposed.
Mr. STANEi'.C)PE opposed the measure as being an
attempt to swat a p the counties.
Mr. L KIN CI replied, and said he did not intend this
as a final meast tr. e, but merely as a step towards some
greater measures, by the present or some future Govern-
ment.
The motion vest a then put, arid
The SPEAK KR declared that the ayes bad it.
No division ea s called f.)r ; and, amidst load cheers,
leave was giver t too bring in the bill.
PILOTS (ISLE OF WIGHT, &'.)
Mr. CLIFF(f3A) called the attention of the house to
the state of the saw affecting pilots in the I-la of Wight
and Portsmoutri districts ; and moved for returns from
the Trinity-hou is ',showing the rate of profits accruing to
such nilet4.
The motion was agreed to, after the assent of Mr.
HENLEY, who r etnarked that the profits of the pilots
wt re not en a rff.t3 as to demand reduction.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Mr. J. Loam a-ked wye to introduc, a bill to
amend an act ars ,;h and Gth years of King William IV.,
cap. 63, relating; to weights and measures. The object