The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-16 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY EVINUNG, JULY 16, 1855.

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Leasing Closing Prices Business
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124 all Do. Shrs. ADo •• •••
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25 all ;Do Do 324 334
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IMPERLAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.,
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the wool-

sack at five o'clock.

Lord LANESBOROUGEE presented a petition from
the Protestant Dissenters of Leicester in favour of Igalts-
ing marriage with a d: ceased wife's sister.
The Earl of DONOUGEIMORE presented similar
petitions from Trowbridge, Downton, Devizes, and
Limply Stoke.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. BILL.

The Earl of ALBEIIA.RLE gave notice of be in-
tention to move an amendment in the 56th clam of
the Government of India Bill.

Tice Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a pe,ition
from the East India Company, against the Go
verement of India Bill. The noble eat I said

he did not concur with the prayer of the petition.
Tne Earl of DERBY—In rising, my lords, to move
the second reading of this bill, I cannot but express the
deep regret which I feel that this task ehould have de-
volved on me rather than on my noble friend and late
colleague, whose intimate knowledge of everything con-
nected with Indian affairs would have enabled bias to
speak with a weight and authority which certainly Ican-
not command. But my noble friend, unfortunately, is
no longer a member of her Majosty's Government, and
it therefore becomes my duty to state to your lordships,
as shortly and as clearly as I can, the main principles
aad provisions of the bill to which I ask you to give a
second reading this evening. Without attempting in
the slightest degree to derogate from the importance of
the measure, I cannot coneeal from myself that a far
greater degree of interest and attention has been at-
tracted to it than would perhaps have been called forth
by its intrinsic importance, in consequence of the poli-
tical circumstances which accompanied its progress
through the other house of Parliament. (Hear.) This
additional advantage, however, has accrued from that
circumstance, that the bill has received a greater degree
of care and of patient investigation in the other house.
than possibly it might otherwise have obtained. I must

in the first place say that I think that the title of this
bill is perhaps open to the charge of being somewhat of
a misnomer—" A. bill for the better Government of
India." It is a bill, my lords, the result of which I hope
may tend to the better government of India; but it eau-
not be too often repeated that tfie government of India
must on the whole be carried on and conducted in India

itself. (Hear, hear.) This bill does not pretend to deal
with all those vast, complicated, and difficult questions
which in the next few years no doubt will seriously en-
gage the anxious consideration of Parliament and of the
country. It does not !pretend to deal wih the revenue,
with the finance, with the land regulations, with the con-
dition of the natives with the possibility and extent of their
admission into the public service Id the country even
after this unhappy revolt shall have been suppressed. It
does not profess to deal with any of those great and rx.
tensive questions ; and though doubtless at future periods
they will engage the attention of Parliament, and though
Parliament will feel it probably its duty t 3 lay down broad
principles of action with regard to most of them, yet your
lordships cannot but be of opinion that the less the inter-
ference of Parliament with the details of the government
of India, the greater prospect there is of the happiness
and contentment of the people of India. (Hear.) I need
not remind your lordships that at the commencement of
the present session the late Government announced their

intention to legislate with regard to the affairs of India.
Without entering into any question of the merits of the
particular legislation which they proposed, I certainly
was of opinion that the time in which we were engaged
with all our force in endeavouring to suppress a bellows
revolt was not the most convenient for legislating upon
such a subject. But that opinion—although it was
shared in by many persons—was overruled by a very
large majority of the other house; for, when a right
hon. Hand of mine thought it his duty to take the some-
what unusual course of moving that leave should be
given to introduce the bill, on the express ground that
it was not the time for legislation—thus especially pre-
venting his motives from being misconstrued, and his
opposition from being regarded as directed against any
of the provisions of the measure—a majority of I believe
about two to one, in a tolerably full house, decided that
it was expedient and desirable that a bill for the regula-
tion of the home government of India should be intro-
duced in the course of the present session ; and you will
observe that this bill is not in factfor the "government of
India," but for the improvement of the machinery by
which, in this country, Indian government may be su
perintended and controlled. In consequence of that
decision the noble viscount lately at the head
of her Majesty's Government introduced a mea-
sure to carry into effect thOse views. Very shortly
after that circumstances occurred which caused the
resignation of the noble viscount, and the consequent
change of Government.. In several•o€ the -provitiotis of
the bill of the late Government—indeed, in most of
them—l, and those with whom I have the honour to
act, cordially concurred ; but there were at the same
time provisions of no minor importance on which we
held entirely opposite opinions. It then became a quoit.
tion with us whether we should proceed with the bill of
the noble viscount, and propose in \committee such
amendments as we might think necessary. But it was
the opinion of her Majesty's servants that a measure of
such vast importance, regulating the machinery for
superintending the Government of India, ought to be
conducted and carried through—not by any private
member, but on the responsibility of the Government as
a whole. The consequence of that was, that under the
auspices of my noble friend (the Earl of Ellenborough)
a bill was introduced and laid upon the table shortly be-
tore the Easter recess. In the course of the observe-

tions which I shall have to make it may he my duty to
cmtrast some of the provisions of that bill and of the
bill now before your lordships with those of the ron.
sure introduced by the late Government; Let At present
I shall only say that the eeerse which we pursued—
althoweli 1 Crepe it was the necessary and proper course
—had this inevitable consequence :—that there being as
it were two rival hills en the table of the House of Com•
mons there might, in the then state of political excite•
ment, occur this unfortunate result, tlias the house would
be called upon to decide between those bills, not with
regard to their respective merits, but with reeard to the
persons and parties by whom they were introduced ;
and. that, consequently, the affairs of India, which re-
quired the most careful and dispassionate consith ration
of Parliament, might be made—what I was most arxious
to avoid—a battlefield for contending political parties.
(Hear.) In those circumstances the noble lord the mein-
, her for London made a suggestion, which wag, I think,
as wine and patriotic as it was certainly just and concilia-
tory, and it tended to relieve Parliament from what might
have been a very serious embarrassment. Lord J. Rus-
sell suggested—and the Government at once adopted the
suggestion; indeed, to a certain extent it hail already
been anticipated by us—that, instead of proceeding to
match as it were one hill as a whole against the other, we
should enable the house to consider one by one in com-
mittee resolutions the principles of which -were involved
in each, and out of those resolutions to frame a measure
which might receive the sanction of the Legislature.
The Government, therefore, acting on that suggestion,
prepared a series of resolutions, which were submitted
seriatim to the consideration of the Huuse of Corunaous;
and it is only doing that house the barest justice to say
that, during the whole of ray experience in Parliament,
I have never known a question which has been treated
by that house with more patience, with more deliberate
attention, with greater temper, and with more entire ab-
sence on all sides of party feeling or acrimonious discus-
sion; and the result of that course of proceeding is that
there has been sent up to your lordships' house- a mea-
sure—not carried by a bare majority, not depending fir
its success upon this or upon that political party, but a
measure to a great extent
,t.he work of the Howie of
Commons itself, and to which all parties conourrod in
giving their tribute of praise,
.Lord Palinerston uniting
with Lord J. RusFell, in according to the third readiag,
not his hesitating but his cordial approval, and expres-
sing his wishes for its SUCCORS before your lordships'
house, (Hear, bear.) I now
principlesproceed very shortly. to ley
petition, in the prayer of which ho
nd.tdbilea preambleCa pbaonuy
bound
lordshipstehaerl who. rose immediately before
which they. have adiseini•
obmfe
ef
thisohasr e yourpresentedbil.
The
noblea
(Ttaoy
si
yg
vari-
ous clauses of the bill. I wises to speak with every respect
dtoosbsenhoetacrodnebuyr, eforoufsethlsagEattsatln
stet: the affairs of India, they have exhibited a degree
tohf
at
th eEastduring ltuhdei al
nego as
periodny
of temper, an impartiality, and a sense of the great and
i important functous which they had to discharge, which
could not be surpassed; but at the same time I cannot
admit that the East India Company have upon a ciao-
tion of this kind any claim to, be heard by counsel be-
fore your lordships' house. The Eat India Company
have been to the present moment trustees for the Crown,
and though from various periods—from 1813 to 1833,
and from 1833 to 1853—that trust, under special limita-
tions, was continued for a period of 20 years, yet in 1853
Parliament took a different course and confided the same
trust to them simply during the pleasure of Parliament.
Clearly, then, from that moment the East India Com-
pany were tenants at will,
wheat. you were perfectly
free to dispossess whenever Parliatnent might think that
the time had come to deprive them of their trust and to
confer it directly upon ithe Crown itself. My noblefriend
whom I see opposite has presented another petition with
regard to the possible diminutiou of the security which
the proprietors and Directors Of. the Esst India Corn.
pany may have under this bill for the payment sf their
dividende. All i can say ep.en this subject is, gat the
clauses in this bill which provide for that security sre the
same as were introduced into the bill of the late Gevern-
inent, upon the advice I presume of the lion. and berm'
gentleman who has now given an opinion that th,y are
not sufficient for the purpose. If it can be shows, how-
ever, that there is the slightest diminution of the sicurity
of the shareholders I shall
be ready to consider at y pro-
position that can be made for increasing that secuety and
I believe that the only questions that can be raised relate,
first, to the receiet of the dividend ; secondly, to the
Bank of England advancing sufficient to meet tEe defi-
ciencies in the Indian remittances ; and, thirdly, the de-
ferring the claim for the payment of the principal. But
if there is a doubt on that point we shall be very
glad to receive any uggotions to improve the security.

Wheri it was determined that a change should take place
in the home Government of India all parties agreed
unanimously that the nominal, as well as the real autho-
rity ought to be transferred to the Crown, and that the
affairs of India should be conducted in the name of the
Crown. The noble earl below me (Ellenborougb), when
on the other side of the house, said that, though he did
not desire any change at preseest, whatever change was
made ought to go to this extent. The home Government
of India no doubt has been conducted with singular pro-
deuce, and I should be sorry to look upon this bill as it
has been represented at the India-house as a bill of pains
and penalties. I do not believe that any men could have
administered the affairs of India under the system which
they found established with more success than the East
India Company ; but the complicated and unnecessary
correspondence, the unavoidable delay which that sys-
tem required, made it obvious that the only change
which could be made was to put the Government of
India under a Minister responsible directly to the Crown
and to Parliament. (Rear.) In point of fact, however,
the transfer is more nominal than real, because though
the Court of Directors exercise certain powers of obstruc-
tion and delay, yet, with the single exception of the recal
of the Governor-General, they can perform no act which
not subject to the revision of the President of the Beard
of Control. Not only does the President of the Board of
Control possess the power of altering or of vetoing the
instructions proposed by the Court of Directors, but be has
the power, and it has been sometimes exercised, of sending
out instructions diametrically opposed to those which the
Court intended. There is a question whether the Court
might not have interposed delay, and even persisted, un
til compelled by a mandamus ; but in point of fact they
have generally been obliged to yieid to the suggestions
of the President of the Board of Central. We alt remem-
ber that my noble friend bel)w me (Earl of Ellen-
borough) ' who has on various occasions been at the
head of the Board of Control, told the committee that
when be was in office the Government cf India was in
his hands altogether. (Hear, hear.) There was no great
difference of opinion, therefore, between the two great
parties in the other house A to transferring the pewera
of the East India Company to a responsible Minister,
and carrying on the government in the name of the
Crown. (Rear.) Neither was there any difference of opi-
nion iu this, that, aithoegh it was expedient that the
business should be conducted by a Minister responsible
to Parliament, yet, inasmuch as it is not possible that
any one man should havesufficieut knowledge and expo-
rience to administer the affairs cf all the different pro-
vinces of India, it would be necessary to give him a
Council more or less numerous by whom he might be
advised or controlled. It was with regard to the con-
stitution of that Council that the greateet difference
' existed between the late load the present Government.
The late Government proposed that the Council should
consist of eight members, holding office for six years, all
'nominated by the Minister of the day, and two to retire
each alternate year. We, however, were of opinion that
that mode of selection would not give sufficient indepen-
dence to the members. One-third would just have been
nominated, and another third would be looking forward
to immediate re-nomination by the Minister or the day,
and there would, therefore, be a greater temptation than
there ought to be to give way to the opinion of the '
Minister of the day. We were of opinion that a Council
of eight was not sufficiently numerous, and we thought
that 18—the present number of the directors—was not
more than was required by the business of India. The
Council of India we thought ought not to he-39 the
directors may have been before—a screen between the
Minister and Parliament, but a body of men well ac- •
quainted with the affairs of India, to give the Minister
advice, which, on his own responsibility, he might be at
liberty either to accept or reject. I have heard it stated
that a Council so constituted would either be the master
or the servant of the Minister, according to his charac-
ter. There is no doubt that it depends very much upon
the self-reliance of a person at the head of a great depart-
ment of the State how far ho is influenced orcontrolled by-
those who fill permanent situations under him ; but I be-
lieve that the Council which we propose in this bill will
neither be masters nor servants, but valuable advisers of
the Minister. To secure their independence we considered
that a certain portion of the members of the Council should
be elected, and another portion nominated by the
Crown. We were also of opinion that their term of
office, to secure their independence, ought to be exten-
sive, and we propose in this bid that the members of the
Council shall hold office during good behaviour, with
the provision that after 10 years' service they shall be
entitled to retire upon an adequate pension. Wien we
crone to deal with the elective portion of the Canned we
found considerable difficulty. My noble friend below—
not now a member of the Government. but fur whose
scheme we are all responsible—proposed originally an
elaborate plan, by which the military and civil services
of the three presidencies would have been represented in.
the Council. It was objected, however, to that provision
that it would fetter her Mejeuty's Government in the selec-
tion of the best men, and that they might frequently be
compelled to choose inefficient mon and to past over the
most competent. Another provision in that Alen, which
also was not received with any great degree of approba-
tion, was one by which we thought we might be able to
obtain in the Council representatives of the commercial
interests connected with India. We proposed to give to
four of the great towns most connected with Indian com-
merce the right of selecting a member of the Council; but
there appeared to be so many difficulties in the way of
carrying out that proposition that we did not insist on it.
The conclusion at which we arrived with the view of se-
curing intelligence, exprieece, and independence in the
members of the Council was that it was necessary a ger-
tain portion should be elected and a certain portion nomi-
Heated ; that the person's elected should have served or
resided a considerable period of time in India, and that
they should hold their offices, as I have stated, during
pleasure, subject to be removed upon an address of the
Houses of Parham° it or for gross misconduct. But when
we came to apply the principle of election we found con-
siderable difficulties. It could not be argued, hardly
with more that plausibility, that the Court of Proprietors
possessed such an interest as to entitle therm to elect to
the Council. Their functions, as your lordships aceaware,
are limited to the receipt of -dividends on their stock,
and though they have the power to pass resolutions,
practically they can give no effect to them. It was pro-
posed to add to this body, to make it asore numerous, and
to give it more connection with India, all persons who for
a certain tune had served in the military or civil service
of India and had returned to reside in this country. But
it was found that it would be a constituency very atilt L
to bring together, very inconvenient on aeeeunt of its
number, and having toe same utsadvantage as the present
F. Ist Indie proprietors—namely, that the most compe-
tent, the ablest, and the highest-minded men will not
submit to go through a canvass for the purpose of being
appointed directors, and still less would they go through a
canvass of a more extensive body for the purpose of being
elected members of Council. After much consideration
her Majesty's Government decided to adopt with regard
to the elected members a principle which, if I mistake
not, was recommended by a noble earl not now present
(Earl Grey)—namely, to give to the existing Court of
Directors, or persons by them first elected, the power
of filling up vacancies by the election of duly quali-
fied persons ; and, upon the whole, in a choice of
difficulties, I think that course the beet to escape thedif-
ficulties attendant upon the adoption of a system of elec-
tion. With regard to the change of name, from Presi-
dent to Secretary of State, though not very important
of itself, it was considered more advisable and more in
conformity with constitutional practice to give the name
of Secretary of State to a high officer upom whom her
Majesty ie pleased to devolve the exercise of duties under
her Royal sanction. As regards the Colonies and Foreign
Affairs, so as regards India, the same title is given to the
presiding officer, and there will be thia additional con-
venience, though not at first contemplated, that either
of the Secretaries of State will be able to sign papers and
perform duties in the absence of the Secretary of State
for India. The Secretary of State for India has full power
of acting in opposition to the advice of the Council, but
if he acts in opposition to the advice of a majority, be is
compelled to put on record the reasons why he puts
aside the advice, and members of the Council have the
same right to enter their reasons for dissenting from any
proposition made or adopted by the Secretary of State.
IThere is a provision also requiring that the Secretary
of State shall call the Council together within seven
days, and submit to their consideration any orders which
in a case of urgency he has the power to issue without
their previous cognizance, There is also a provision
which your lordships generally believe to be absolutely
necessary, and with-ut which the noble earl be'ow me
says the government of India could not be advantage-
ously carried on—namely, a transfer to the Secretary of
State of the power formerly exercised in a secret com•
mittee of sending out ordora and instructions without
communication with the Council. I du not mean to say
that that power on certain occasions has not been
abused. I do not mean to say that it has not been too
extensively used ; but I am sure your lordships will
agree with me that with regard to the two questions
to which alone it is properly applicable—the carry-
ing on operations of war, or snaking diplomatic
arrangements with native States—it is absolutely
essential the Secretary of State should possess the
power of preserving entire secrecy, even front the
Council. (Rear.) There are two questions upon which
the Secretary of State is overruled by a majority—first,
with regard to the election of a member, and second,
with regard to the expenditure of the revenues of India.
The election of members would be a farce if the Secretary
of State, by his sole authority, could overbear the ap-
pointment of any particular man. With regard to ex-
penditure we must bear in mind that the House of Com-
mons does not exercise any control, and therefore it is
essential that there should be a bona fide control over
the Secretary of State by the independent body which
I hope this Council will be. There are only two other
subjects to which it is necessary to call attention, and I
call attention to them because I think upon them the
principles and intentions of this bill have been some-
what misapprehended. The one relates to the em-
ployment of Indian troops, and the other to the
admission of persons to the civil service. With
regard to the first, it has been objected to the
clause which particularly deals with that question
--the 55th clause—that it proposes to interfere with
the prerogative of the Crown, inasmuch as it provides
that none of her Majesty's forces maintained out of the
revenues of India, except in cases of urgent emergency,
shall be taken beyond the Indian frontier, without the
previous consent of Parliament. It was thought, and I
confess the words might bear the construction, though it
was net intended by the framer of the clause----that it
was an interference with the indisputable prerogative of
the Crown to make, war or peace. Although there is no
prerogative more indisputahle plain that, the constitution
has provided an equally indisputahle cheek upon the
practical exercise of that prerogative, by rendering it
necessary that the Crown should come to Parliament for
the supplies, without which it would be impossible to
carry on war. But with regard to our troops its India'
there was and there can be no such Parliamentary con,
trol, and, consequently, if there were no such clause as
this, it might have been competent—l do not say there

is any danger, but the danger might ho possible
ur der a Sovereign less constitutional than Her Ma-
jesty—for the Crown to employ Indian troops in wars
wholly and entirely unsanctioned by Parliament—the
whole force of India might he carried to any portion of
the world without the exercise of the constitutional pe-
cuniary check to which I have rderreci. Tue bill intro-
(
duced by the late Government contained a clause to the
effect that Her Majesty should not be empowered to
send out of Asia any part of the force wholly maintained
and paid out of the Indian revenues. As far as the re-
striction on the prerogative goes, the principle is pre-
cisely the same, whether the restriction is that the troops
shall not be sent beyond the limits of Asia or beyond the
limits of our Indian possessions, and I think it would
have been perfectly competent for Parliament, in hand-
ing over to the Crown the government of this vast empire,
to make a stronger provision, and to provide that the In-
dian force shall be leviel upon the footing of a militia
—consequently, not required to serve beyond those
dominions]. While the principle of the exception in
the bill of the late Government was the same as ours,
it would have allowed that which is the real and
substantial danger. Within Asia you might carry
on sv it with Persia, you inieLt carry on war wish China,
you might carry on war even with Russia, and without
further exception than that the troops should not serve
out of Asia, all this might be done by the authority of
the Crown, and Parliament have no control over the i x•
penditure and no right to express an opinion on the pro-
priety of the war. It was not our intention to limit the
prerogative of the Crown, brit our intention was to pro,
test the revenues of India, and consequently when we
come to the clause I shall propose an amendment to
remove all ambiguity, to the effect that it shall not be
competent, except to repel tactual invasion or in a suet
den and urgent emergency, to make the revenues of India
applicable without the consent of Parliament to defray
the expense of military operations, carried on beyond
the frontier. (Hear ) The other point to which I
would refer ie contained in an earlier clause of the
bill—l thiuk in the 32d or 331—which has reference to
admission to the civil service. The law as it stands provider'
that all persons who are admitted into the civil ser-
vice of the East India Company shall pass such
examinations as shall be from time to time prescribed
and regulated by the Court of Directors and the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control. That power is now trans-
ferred to the Secretary of State, but this bill 'goes far-
ther than I think the justice of the case warrants, and
gives to the principle of competitive examination, for
the first time, a Parliamentary sanction, fettering the
acts of the Executive by an Act of Parliament, and com-
pelling au adherence to the principle of competitive exa•
ruination. It is my intention toomoye the omission of
the words which render It necessary for the Government
to admit candidates for the civil service in the order of
their proficiency at a competitive examination, leaving
the law as it stands with regard to admission to the In-
dian civil service,l sudjeet to such regulations as may
he issued by the Secretary of State, with the approval of
the Crown, and laid before Parliament. There is one
other most important point—namely, the reconstruction
and organisation of the future Indian army. That
is a question of the most vital importance,
and her Mai, sty has been advised, and will, I be-
believe, act upon the advice, to issue a commission for
the purpose of instituting an inquiry into all the subjects
contented with the reorganisation of the future forces to
be employed in India. (Hear.) This commission will
have to consider the proportion of Europeans to be em-
ployed, the mode in which they shall be relieved, the
conditions upon which they shall serve, the number of
the waive army, and the conditions upon which they
shall be engaged, and every other question connected
with the future peace establishment of India when the
revolt shall be happily put down. In the meantime it
will be necessary for Parliament to provide for the
maintenance of the present state of things until the re-
sult of this commission shall be known. and until Parlia-
ment shall have acted upon its recommendations. The
hill, therefore, provides what may be necessary for the
present, leaving to her Majesty the perfect freedom
of making such regulations for the future ad-
ministration of the army, both as regards
the European and native troops, as she may
be advised. The bill also provides, as far as it refers
to individuals and bodies, that they shall have re-
served to them all the tights!, privileges, andexpectatione
which they were led to form at the time of their admis-
sion to this service, (Hear.) It would be the grossest
injustice to introduce a similar system at once in both
descriptions of the Indian force, and to apply the same
principles] to those who shall hereafter enter and those
who entered the aet vice under different expectations.
(Hear.) I have now stated to your lordships, I trust
not at too great length—(cheers)—the principles of the
measure to which I ask your lordships' assent. The bill
has received the careful deliberationand attention of the
House of Commons, and it has be'n sent up to your
lordships with the universal concurrence of that house.
I have perhaas entered at too great length into an ex-
planation of a measure to which no objection will pro-
bably be made ; but while the labours of the House of
Commons render it probable that ne very numerous
amendments will be necessary, her Maj ssty Govern-
ment will be happy to give the fullest and most impartial
consideration to any amendments which may be sug-
gested in the course of the discussion of this bill.
(Cheers.) The noble earl concludad by moving that the
bill be now read a second time.

Earl GRA.NVILLE said it was not likely there would
ever be a complaint from either side of the house that
any speech of the noble earl's was too long. (Hear ) He
had only one cause of regret,- -that the singularly altar
and lucid statement of the noble earl had not been made
at an earlier period and in a house *till more full. The
noble earl had stated with perfect accuracy, what had
passed when the late Government introduced their bill,
which was opposed by the noble earl and his friends.
When they came into office there were two courses open
to them—either to adhere to their original opinion, or,
as they wisely and prudently did, feeling that the matter
had gone too far, and the House of Commons had too
strongly pronounced, to adopt the legacy left them. The
noble earl said they might have adopted the bill of the
late Government, and introduced certain amendments.
He: must say that that would have been the most
simple and speedy course. He thoug'ut they would
hove boo able to introduce even all the amendments,
they at first proposed, and certainly all they now had
introduced, and the matter would have arrived at a much
speedier conclusion. After the Government had intro-
duced their bill, all the original matter they had inserted
was disapproved of, and the Government at length
adopted the suggestion of Lord John Russell to proceed
by resolution ; that would have been very well in the
first instance, but after the bill had been introduced it
was rather au anomaly ; it had, however, one advantage
—that if the usual course had been taken, as the noble
earl the President of the Board of Control had induced
the house to believe it would, and the resolutions sent
up to them, if not simultaneously, at least at a certain
period, they would have bad ample time to discuss fully
the whole bearings of the question. Certainly the time
would have been well spent, as the house included many
well informed on Indian affairs, and had the advantage
of great regal minds. Such, however, was not the case,
and the result on the whole appeared to be, not that the
bill had been particularly well considered in the other
house—(hear, hear)—but that the constant discussion
had produced a weariness which, added to the present
state of the Thames, made the house too ready to accept
any proposal which the Government threw to it. Ho
very tnuoh feared that, considering the late period of
the session, and their desire that nothing factious should
appear on their part, it would he difficult in passing the
bill to pay that attention to the details which was so re-
quisite. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl had stated with
perfect accuracy the principles and objects of the bill.
The principle was to transfer the government of India,
so far as this country was concerned, from the Board of
Directors to tba Crown. These were the objects to be
attained—one to simplify the machinery of the govern-
ment at home, the other to secure the inestimable ad-
vantage of governing Italia in the name of the Sove-
reign. He would not weaken the noble earl's arguments
by repeating than. As to the change made by the pre-
sent Government—namely, of the name of the Minister,
it was better that he should be oalled Secretary of State
than President of the Council. The late Government
would have made that proposal but for some technical
difficulty as to making a high officer, the organ
of the Crown, subject to the control of another body.
With regard to chief differences between the two bills,
it would be hardly honest for him to conceal that, as far
as ha was individually concerned, he had from the first
felt very great doubts as to whether the council was at
all that amiable adjunct it appeareedstetdo—sotbmeea.dv(iHeeeaabr.d)
control they exercised over
Tsuhpepreorwt etrbeeythgeasveeatdovaanndtatgbees
the minister. The noble earl rather threw over the con•
trol, and if he threw over that, there was not much force
in the rest of the argument. As to advice, be believer: the
difficulty of getting it was out great ; one invaluable
source existed in the permanent servants of the India
House ; and be did not see why the new government
should not be able to secure the same class, who had to
a great degree carried on the government of India. As
to his own experience, whenever he felt it necesary to
obtain information on Indian subjects he always found
old Indian eervenss ready to give every information, but
he found that with regard to general questions they were
more apt to dwell on individual circumstances in par-
ticular districts where they had held office. If he wanted
to go into the general question he should consult a man
like Sir J. Melvill, who whether he might be right or
wrong in his views was able at once to state the whole
position of the question, give the history of it, and cite
all the autleurities. • It would be easy enough to find men
arriving from India perfectly well informed on depart-
mental questions, but if the council was to be repre-
sentative they would be in thedifficulty of excising some
jealousy in a member by applying to the unofficial source
fur advice. With regard to the support, he believed it
was very much overrated ; with a man of ability and
temper, when the government was in no difficulty, no
doubt the minister and council would go on smoothly,
although if any proposal was made in the House of
Commons, a minister, quoting his council, would be
met by the reply, " Of course your council agree with
you ;" or "Let us hear your reasons, not your autho-
rity." On the other band, with regard to the con-
trol, a strong minister would find means to avail him-
self of the loopholes given by the bill ; but when the
Government got into difficulties, mid they ought to be
supported by them, they would have the Council writ-
ing long correspondence and allowing others see it, He
knew he was leaving himself open to the natural rejoin-
der, why, if such were his opinions, had he supported
any proposal for a Council ? His answer simply was, the
passing the bill was the paramount object, and public
opinion would not consent to the transfer without some
such control, and the course proposed by the late Go;
vernment would have given all the advantages with the.
leaet possible portion of the disadvantages of such a body.

Their plan was a conncil of eight, holding office for eight
years. Zile plan of this Government was totally different,
on a different duty ; the number was increased, they
were to be partly nominated and party elected, with
the principle of representation introduced. In the first
hill of the present Government the term of office was
reduced to six years, hut they were now to hold during
good behaviour, which was the same as for life. The idea
of representation had been entirely abandoned, but the
election was retained. Toe noble earl had rightly stated
that the opinion of the hoes© had been strongly expressed
on this point. He, for one, would not offer any
opposition as to the number ; he very much regre.ted
the change. (titer.) He would leave economy entirely
out of the question, but stilt he could net see why c'e ills
the salary should be paid for the same work as was now
pr.-rformed by the Court of Directors. The number was
in itself objectionable.. He would appeal to those of their
ordehipe who had been members of the Cabinet whe-
ther, although the members were much occupied with
their Parliamentary and departmental duties, the num-
ber at which Cebinete had now arrived-15 or 16
not to a certain degree enceurag,e conversation, anti lend
to place the knowledge and conduct cf important busi-
noA in the hands of fewer member© than if the Cabinet
consisted of a smaller number ? There was one element
which ought not to be left out of considereti en, that was
the likelihood i f heir g bored. (A. laugh.) There was one
advanta e in the Cabinet, viz., that if a man becamea 'we
he could be got rid of, but in the Council he c 'old not. He
bad come experience of Indian servants ; they had not
the advantage which public men had in this country, but
bad passed their lives in very different circumstances,
exercising the functiono of pr enonsule, and he feared
very much that in the council they might be tempted to
exeend their supeifluons energy iu veritirg hog minutes,
and however able and intelligent, conduct business in
such a way as that the secretary might find it too tire-
some to attend: their meetings, and eventually reduce
their functions to. a mere sham. With regard to the
question of patronage, one great argument against the
bill of the late Government was, that their chief desire
was to increase their own patronage. How did the case
le ally stand ? With regard to alt the home patronage,
their bill provided that the Minister could not exercise
it without the concurrence of half the council. The first
bill of the G svernment allowed that to stand as to pro-
motion, but by this bill all appointments and promotions
were vested in the Secretary of State alone. He did not
say that this was wrong. Another change had been
made in the bill, with regard to the nomination of the
council in India. It was proposed in the bill of the late
Government that the nomination of the members should,
be left to-the Governor-General; but It was now pm.
poota-to give-the nomination to -the- secretary in -eemscil.
It eeptieared to him that the disadvantages of giving the
nomination to the Governor-Generel were as nothing
compared to the disadvantages of bringing the nomina-
tions over here, where they would necessarily give place
to canvassing. (hear, hear.) He also regretted the
change which had been made with respect to the admis-
sion of the civil servants. . With regard to the duties and
procedure of the council, he had great difficulty in fol-
lowing the arrangements which bad been made. The
Secretary of State was invested with the powers now
exercised by the President of the Board of Control and
the Court of Directors, and the next clause enabled him
to divide the council into committees, and to allot to
those committees different parts of the business. He
should like to know whether this clause trandorred the
powers of the council to these committees, or whether
they were merely to adjust the matters referred to them
and then back to the council. This distinction ought to
have been made manifest in the bill. Again, the Secre-
tary of State was empowered to act independently of
the council in matters of urgency ; but the Secretary of
State was the sole judge of urgency, although it was
sometimes very difficult to say what was urgent and what
was not. He agreed in the propriety of vesting in the
Secretary of State the power& of the secret committee.
With regard to the expenditure, the late Government in
their bill imposed some restrictions, but her Majesty's
Government omitted those restrictions altogether. The
noble earl shook his head, but he woul I find that he was
right. In the bill, however, as it stood, a change had
been made, for not oily was a restriction imposed, but it
was made far more stringent than in the bill of the late
Government, inasmuch as the bill provided that no
expenditure could be incurred without the consent of
a majority of the council. That constituted the coun-
cil a House of Commons for the affairs of India, for
they could stop the supplies. (Hear, hear.) It appeared
to him that this clause rendered nugatory that ether
clause which gave the Sect eery of State the power of
initiation in cases of emergency, because some appro-
priation of revenue must almost necessarily accompany
every sae' else of that power. (Hear.) Some of the
objections which had been urged might turn out in prac-
tice to be of little weight, whilst others that were not
now urged might strongly and prominently appear. But
the whole thing was but an experiment, and ought to be
very much regarded in that light. He trusted there
was nothing in his remarks which showed a factious tone
—(hear, hoar, from the ministerial bench)—and on the
other band he was sure that the Government would
meet in a fair and proper spirit any reasonable proposi-
t on which they (the opposition) could offer. He thought
that a limit, say of five years, should be given to the du-
ration of the act. He knew the noble earl would say
that it would be inconsistent to appoint a council for life,
and then to limit the operation of the act to five years ;
but this bill contained a clause relative to the dismissal
of any member of the council with loss of salary or pen-
sloe, which showed that this was a provisional form of
government. If any amendment-of that kind was-intro.
deiced, it should not necessarily be considered as leading
to a revision of the whole government of India, but to
particutar portions of it. There was only one other
point to which he would refer—he alluded to the provi-
sion in the sth clause respecting the employment of
the Indian army out of India, which had been suggested
by Mr. Gladstone and adopted by her Majesty's Go-
vernment. He confessed he felt surprised, both at the
suggestion and at its adoption, because he doubted if it
was not altogether unconstitutional, as well as unwise,
to declare that the executive should not have the power
of employing the Indian army out of India, except
to repel an actual invasion of the country, or on
some urgent necessity. This reminded him of Mr.

Pitt's faiiiong nrilFr reApecti..g Li4E5 volunteers, which
h4tl been so much ridiculed, for it was equivalent to say-
ing, " Come forward, my lads, here is a fine opportunity
of serving your country with perfect impunity." (Laugh-
ter.) With regard to the urgent necessity, he was of
opinion that no military operations were justifiable ex-
cept in case of emergency and urgency. It they were to
have an act of Parliament to declare war, and to justify
the commencement of military operations, they would
probably hav,2 an act of Parliament to declare peace,
and in this way the important prerogative of the sove-
reign would be taken out of the hands of the Crown.
(Hear.) The noble earl signified that he would intro-
duce an amendment for the purpose of removing the
constitutional objection, but unless the noble earl was
prepared to modify the clause to a greater extent than
that he should feel it to be his duty to move the rejec-
tion of the clause altogether. These were the objections
he felt to the measure. He hoped the result, at all
events, would be to pass such a bill for India as would
be not only for the advantage of this country, but for the
benefit of their fellow-subjects in India. (Hear, bear.)

The E id of ELLENBOROUGH said that his noble
friend expressed a regret that it had not fallen to his
lot as a Minister of the Crown to ask their lordships to
agree to a measure for the government of India. But
he could not have asked their lordships to agree to
any measure in which a portion of tha Council of the
Minister of India was not electel by popular election.
Neither could he ask their lordships to agree to any pro-
potition in favour of a oempetitive examination for the
engineers and artillery of the Indian army, which
were two of the noblest corps connected with any
military service, and whoeo recent deeds only added
to a reputation which was already didused throughout
the world. (Hear, hear.) The officers of these services
were already chosen by competitive examination from
the young gentlemen educated at A ddiscornbe. It might
be possible, and even desirable, to erect another estab-
lishment or to extend Addiscornbe, but there was this
great advantage connected wit's the present system,
that they were not exposed to the risk of having persons
forced upon them who were merely crammed for a special
ex tmination, whilst they were sure of having persons
who had received a really solid education in a military
point of view. When he looked at the present moment
to the names of those mon who illustrated their arms in
India—to Sir John Lawrence, to Sir Archdale Wilson,
to Eyre, to Tombs, and to others who had been brought
up and educated under the present system—to propose
now to alter that system which had produced men or
such distinction seemed to him to be a most unnecessary
and gratuitous ace, and a truckling to a temporary feel-
ing which existed elsewhere which he could have hardly
supposed it possible any Government could have seceded
to, (Hear, hear.) The bill:now before their lordships
differed in principle from both the bilk which had pre-
ceded, and he considered it to he the bill of the House
of Common's rather than the bill of the Government,
(Hear.) The House of Commons was determined to
pees ttns year a bill for India, and they had certain ob-
jects in view. They had the object of putting an end to
the East India Company, of putting an end to the
double government, of having one sole responsible
officer who was to be entrusted with the government of
ludia. They were desirous also—and he wished they
bad oenfined themselves to this—of substituting the
name of the Queen for that of the East India Company
in the government of India. They put an end altogether
to the Court of Proprietors and the Court of Proprietor",
he must say, justly deserved that punishment, for they
had not acteu under a sense of moral responsibility in
the execution of their duties. (Hear ) He saw himself
that, on two occasions, when the Court of PrOprietOTS
had met to discuss this very measure which WtSieii
intended to extingui.ll themselves, the court was cotreard,
out, there being oily seven persons present. ndrithey
hear.) That was an abdication on their part,
had no right to ask others to defend theta when
their
con-
,irec
showed such luk e- a firmness in
(Hear.) But they always looked tdo"flehnedu.orft(l
Court
tthoef
tors as being the Eria India Company,
Indiaun d ewratsh i obti .n(iya enaort,
nexion with the government offted
put an end to but wag perpetuated
Proprietors elected 12
hear.) At present the Court
out of the 18 directors, but under this bill the Court of
Directors were empowered toe
and the government,lect seven members of the
new council from their own body,
in the exercise of their responsibility, must name at least
on the part of the Crown, three of the other members of
that court, so that ten at least, in the first instance of
the new council, would be members of the present court.
It was said that one-half of the future nominations should
exot in the Crown, and the other half in the council. If
the first person who died was a nominee of the Crown,
the Crown gained nothing, and if the next member who
aka was also a nominee 01 the Crown, the council having