The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-29 00:00:00

LONDON, SATURDAY it V ENING, MAY 29, 1858.

correspondence. I hold an entirely different opinion. I
believe that the House of Commons has suffered far
more from suppression and secrecy than from publicity.
(Hear.) I will not be one to complain of a Government,
whether Conservative or Liberal, who think it. consistent
with their public duty to communicate information to
the House of Commons ; and I say that I think that
those gentlemen who brought forward the late motion
in reference to Lord Ellenborougb's despatch have no
right whatever to complain of the production of the cor-
respondence as respects their own interests, for it fur-
nished them with a creditable mode of escaping from a
very difficult position. (Cries of " Hear," from the Mini-
sterial side.) I believe that motion was from the begin-
ning based on a false issue, and that it would have ended
in any case in a defeat ; but the being able to say that
' further information had put the matter in a different po-
i ion was, in point ofjfect, being able to take advantage
of a mode of escape somewhat more creditable than
otherwise would have been the case. (Hear, bear.) I
was not prepared to-night for a discussion on the state of
the nation, and I think that some notice ought to have
been given of the intention to raise such's discussion—
(hear, hear)—but with respect to some observations
which have been made in reference to the Conispiracy
Bill I will take leave to say that I did not collect from
the public statements of the right hon. member for
Buckinghamshire that he approved the Conspiracy
Bill itself as proposed by the late Government, but that
he would not be a party to object to the introduction of
a measure in deference to the wishes of the French Gee
vernment. (Hear, hear.) I really, when I brought
forward my amendment, framed it with the feeling on
my mind that hon. gentlemen were not committed to
the merits of the particu'ar measure, and without know-
ing what course hoe. gentlemen would take, I felt that
there was nothing in the public speeches which had
been made that precluded members from opposing the
Conspiracy Bill on its merits on the second reading, and
I sin one of those who never considered that there was
any inconsistency in a member voting for the first read-
ing of a bill, and afterwards voting against the principle
of the bill on the second reading. With respect to the
question of Sardinia and Naples, I for one should be
eery sorry to see the Government of the day urged into
an unnece fierily hostile course in reference this mat-
ter, as if it were an evil that the question between Sar-
dinia and Naples should be settled without fighting.
(Hear, hear.) A resolution come to at the Conference
at Paris pointed out a mode of settling differences that
might arise between the Powers of Europe ; and the
representatives of the great Powers at that Conference
all pledged themselves that previously to having recourse
to arms it was desirable to settle such disputes as might
occur by arbitration or mediation. That having been
the deliberate resolution of the parties to the Conference,
and it having been so recently agreed to, I certainly
cannot complain if the Government did appear desirous
of bringing into action the principle of that resolution,
and of endeavouring by every means in their power to
bring about a settlement of this question between S sr-
dieia and Naples by arbi' ration or mediation. I there-
fore could not, for one, have been a party to support any
motion made in this house with a view to prevent, as it
were, the peaceable settlement of the question. (Hear,
hear.) I am extremely glad to find that on the question
of India both sides of the house are willing to support,
or to avow their support of, the principles of humanity
and mercy. I remember reading not long since a re-
markable passage in the leading journal to this effect—
that in the affairs of India humanity and justice were
secondary considerattone. Well, I am glad to find that
we are not ashamed to be thought capable of acting in
the spirit of humanity, justice, and mercy to the people
of India, notwithstanding the great atrocities which
have undoubtedly been committed towards oar own fel-
low-subjects in that country. (Hear.) I, therefore, am
glad that this discussion has arisen, in order that the
world may see that as passions have become subdued all
parties are favourable to' a policy ( f humanity and
I mercy. (Hear.) If there be astonishment felt that a
great party like the Liberal party, being superior, no
doubt, in numbers both in the country and this house
to what is called the Conservative party, should never-
theless find itself on the Opposi•ion benches, I think
that that state of affairs can only be explained by this
simple circumstance—that the party has been badly led
and badly handled; that those who have conceived the
policy which it should adopt and support have been
mistaken, and we have, unfortunately, by those mis
takes been led to the "
.cold shade" of Opposition, when
otherwise hon. gentlemen near me would have still been
on the Treasury benches. I am firmly myself of this
opinion, and I see no chance whatever of the restoration
to power i f the Liberal party, unless that party brings
forward its own measures, f tunded on its own prin-
ciples, and carries its measures through into practical
effect, and shows to the country that it is not merely the
Liberal party in name, but that it is earnest in the cause
f reform, and will use power, when it has it to carry its
principles into practical yeti lation. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COLLIER said that the Chancellor of the Ex-
eh( quer had charged _Gerd John Resse'l with grave
mi-
representations of what he had said at S'ougl7; but, as
the correctness of the report was admitted, be would
read a short passage him it. Lord John Russell had
said that he (Mr. Disraeli) accused certain statesmen of
advocating a policy of cruelty, massacre, and extermina-
tion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he had
done no more than allude to confiscation. (Hear, hear.)
Let the house judge between them. The right boo.
gentleman was reported to have said, " But we had to
decide—fur it was the turning point of our Indian em-
pire—the charact-r of the policy which ought to be pur-

friend (Lord Palmerston) for having dissolved this house
after its vote respecting China. But why had he not
seized the first opportunity to tell'his noble friend how
unconstitutionally he had acted? It was marvellous that
he had omitted until the preoent moment to notice that
• when the house voted against the policy of the Chi•
nese war the late First Lord of the Treasury, "the most
popular Minister the country ever had," dissolved Par-
liament, in spite of all constitutional arguments to the
contrary, which he must have imbibed from association
with the noble lord (.1. Russell) and sect hon. members
about their business. But why should the noble lord be so
sensitive about a dissolution ? Did not ardent patriots
always rejoice to meet their constituents ? (A. laugh.) If
hon. members had been faithful to their trust, why should
they fear to appear on the hustings ? The noble lord's
speech showed a just appreciation of the disagreeable
consequences of meeting his constituents to justify a vote
in condemnation of the policy of Lord Ellenborough.
He (Mr. Whiteside) thought that, unexpected as this
discussion had been, nothing had been said in the course
of it to prejudice either the conduct of the Government
or the speech of his right hon. friend. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had not intended to mis-
represent the right hon. gentleman. He thought the word
used was " extermination ;" he now found that it was
" unmitigated vengeance and massacre." (Hear, hear.)
He assured the last speaker that he had not thrown any
blame on Lard Palmerston for dissolving Parliament.
Mr. GREFFI I'll having been frequently ref rred to,
wished to observe that the majority of 200 is favour of
the introduction of the Conspiracy Bill had been s-b-
-tained by the production of a despatch of Count Wa-
leviki, di-avowing the language of the French col noels ;
but it was not then known that that despatch woul I re-
ceive the same publicity as the regimental addresses.
Finding this was the case, he bad put the question to
Lord Palmerston that had been referred to ; and he
thought it a most appropriate question.
CAPTAINS ON TaE HALF-PAY LIST.
Sir DE L. EVANS moved for an humble address to
her Msjesty praying that her Majesty would begraciou ly
pleased to take into considerati in the hardship experi-
enced by captains of cavalry and infantry, who, having
been reduced to the non-effective list by order of Govern-
ment, at the termination of the late war in 1856, and
Doing replaced on the effective strength of the army on
the breaking out of the war in the East in 1857, found
themselves posted to regiments in relatively inferior
rank to lieutenants, who had obtained the rank of cap-
tain, by purchase or otherwise, during the intermediate
year of peace. The hon, and gallant gentleman, w. o
was indistinctly heard, said ho understood that the cap-
tains of cavalry and infantry were pitched upon by the
Goverument, when the non-effective list was made out,
rather than the subalterns, because 6 I. or 71. additional
per day would be saved ; but he thought that was by no
means a justification of any departure from the ordinary
practice, and he appealed to the house as a matter of
equity in favour of redress being given to these officers.
Tense officers had been reduced improperly and inequi-
tably, and were called upon after 10 months to come
back, not to a peace but to a war service, many of them
being men of most distinguished merit. He would not
detain the house further.
The amendment having been put,
Col. NORTH had no objection to second the motion,
and wished its objects could be carried into effect. He
bad upon a former occasion remonstrated against the
unjust treatment of those officers. Still, he must own
there was great difficulty in dealing with the question.
The amendment on the original motion having been
put,
Gen. PEEL replied, admitting the hardship of the
case put by the hon. and gallant officer the member kr
Westminster, but it was quite impossible to make the
exception fir which he asked without erendirg it over
the whole army. He was not in office at the time the
reduction complained of took pace, and was not there-
fore responsible.
Sir DE L. EVANS withdrew his amendment.
EDUCATION IN TOE ARMY.
Mr. MONSELL put three questions to the Secretary
for War. The first was whether or not the right hon.
gentleman intended to carry out the principle affirmed
by a resolet.on of the House of Commons with regard
to the scientific corps of the army ; if a minute had
been issued to that eff!ct, and if such minute would Le
laid upon the table of the house ? secondly, whe-
ther any changes were in contemplation in respi ct
to Woolwich, in which place it was absolutely
necessary to make °bulges for the reception of
cadets, of whom there were now three or four of 21 or 22
years of age sleeping in the same room, and without pri-
vase rooms for study ? and thirdly, he wished to ask the
right hon. gentleman as to the constitution of the coun-
cil of military education ? They were much indebted to,
the Commander-in-Chief for the establishment of tie
council of military education, which would produce the
best results, but he wanted to know whether upon that
courefl the right hoe, gentleman would not place an
artillery officer, and also some civilian like Canon Mdse -
ley, who was conversant with the subject generally ?
He mentioned Canon Moseley as it was well known
what time and attention he had given to this subject.
Gen. PEEL replied to all three questions in the :Affir-
mative. It was the intention of the G ivernment to catty
out the resolution of that house. A minute in accord-
ance therewith had been printed, arid would he laid on
the table, that would improve the condition of the Wool-
wich establishment, and Canon Moseley had been ap-
plied to, and would accept a place in the council for
military education. (Cheers.)
ARMY ESTIMATES.

stied ; whether it ahonln b; a policy of unmitigated yen- ' The house then went into committee on the army esti-
geance, or whether the time had a-rived when we should mates.
attempt to rebuild our great empire in the east on principles cht).:
esa
for education
of 1.87 t, being proposed to defray the
adea of the service
of a very different character, and leading, as we believed, to Sirg D. Nallclth:W na
scientificstkiee h when _hetr report on the Ord:
a very different result. Was it to be m liter y occupa- !lance survey would be laid on the table.
lion by an army feur times greater in amount than any General PEEL replied that the report was ready, and
army of Europeans that ever entered that country ? would be laid on the table in a few days.
Was it to be military occupation, attended by enormous Mr. MONSELL called attention to the scale of ply-
tax %thou, by a draining of her Majesty's subjects from ments now required for ca lets at San 'burst College. Tao
establishment scarcely cost the countryaeythine for the
tlsie country, and by a perpetual r xbaustion of our r.-
sources ? Or were we to recegeise that vengeance had payment of the cadets supported, but he wished to know
dune its duty ! Were we to recognise that the time had why a gentleman's son paid 123/. a-year, while the son of
asonladamipl or a colonel commanding a regimen, paid but
arrived, or was fast arriving, when, upon the fall of the ,
Ire. should 'u
bteelsaehrrt-eteolemhealke7ol., ahe.aptein 50/2 and fto. On-
rebellious capital, we ought to announce to the inhabi-
tants of lodic the principle on which we proposed to re- beiug afforded to iYhe sons of offie ejeercstreene,imicrnstaneceidouteleas:
construct our empire—a principle that we believed mutt tion at a cheap rate, but that ought not to be done at the
contriouto to their happiness and to the welfare and expense of private gentlemen who sent their sons into
power and glory of this country ? Was it always to be these schools. In no country in Europe was such a system
massacre and connasatiaa ? Or, on the other hand, was Practised but in this. France, Austria and Prussia, had
it to be disc, irninating amnesty I (Loud cheers from the bourses for the sons of officers where they received a free
Ministerial benches.) Hon. gentlemen opposite cheered education, but however that may be, the public ought not
to be made to pay for thei eons of other people.
loudly, and they had eiv, n efficient support to the Go-
vernment lately by theire mugs at least. (A laugh.) 'rhe Col. NORTH
.tnfeadmionrit hisi rfiogrht hon. friend
ethhialtdrSand-
question was whether the right hon. gentleman was cor- oflicersw, aasnide wase establishe'dYby ththeeDeurikheahof York, and
reel in stating that he had referred only to confiscation. mainly by the exertions of a gallant officer, the father of an
51r, WHITESIDE said it was right that the house hon. baronet (Sir Denis le Merchant), who headed a bril-
sbeuti understand what the noble lord intended to ins- limit charge at the battle of Vittoria. In 1815 it contained
puts to the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the 412 cadets, 156 of whom were the orphan children of offi-
Exchequer. The right bun. gentleman inquired wilt- cars who had fallen in action, and the country contribated
idler the policy to bo pursued ice India was to be one of to its support no less than 21,300/. Ten years after, how-
vengeance and confiscation,or one consistent with an
iteside) upheld ever, the services of the army were forgotten, and through
enlightened amnesty ?
he (Mr.
the instrumentality of certain hon. members of that house,
Now, Wfa
thegrantl to the school.w, aw'aistiliyaitlhtodrawl n altogether, end the
and abided by that sentiment, which was a sentiment of Or i
hr.fllatllty and reason, and consistent with the opinions jAlfatehreaafse'w weeor.ds fyrom Sir D.g.NetoTtrit.EYS, the vote was
of the peeple of this country—(hear) —and he was cur- agreed to.
prised to see those gentlemen who were so confident The next vote was a sum of 15,3201. for military services.
of the censure they sought no cast on the Government, Lord Haw Am complained of the practice which now
but who shruek from bringing their motion ef censurs privaile I with respect to the decoration of the Order of
to the test of a division, now come forward and com- the Bath, Instead of a gallant officer who received that
pl tin of that language. Tao right hon. gentleman the reward being allowed to transmit the decoration to his
member for Radnor said he abided by all that the posterity, the first thing done o.the news of his dealt was
right hon. member for Oxford did and intended to do, an application by order of the Prince Consort, as heal of
representative to return it
that be was affected by no arguments, changed by no the Order,
to hiswhichthe officers of the British it.
received The Order of
facts ; in fact, that be was unchangeable, and to be con- twore obviously of so little value that they felt it necessary
vinced by nothing. (Hear, aid laughter: Toe right hon. to go to a jeweller, and to have it furnished with a silver
gentlsman abided by all his orig:nal and erroneous cpi• decoration, without which he would be ashamed to appear
'lions, and sought to persuade himself—for ho never with it, He might advert to the distribution of the Older
would persuade any one else—that time whole House i f at the close of the Crimean war, when the French officers,
Commons way wrong and he himself alone right. (Rear, as well as the British, were selected to receive it; and state
and a laugh.) The right hon. gentleman said that he had that while the °viler distribated to the French was mounted
not been aware in reference to France and England of in silver, that distributed to the British officers--he spoke
anything likely to lead to a collision between the two it not offensively—Was mounted in pasteboard, and was
co of so inferior a description that they could net wear
countries. Tile right hon. gentleman mu t surely have it.lie•
to
int, n
been living in the Republic of Plato, and not in the ordi-doeralkt. th9oifibtheretyhooufsebrliuging
r the
and
under
been
the cots
nary wee! 1. (A lneigt..) He a- kee for press of this fact? eiloili toheivhe followed it lea py,eralv, it thil 7Zcion.
but it was rather a etrangu thing to e.,,i, up.m a Mitibter had not a change of GrovLramot, taken place. There
of the Crown to prove seriatim all the different matters wao_, however, a gallant officer now in the War-office, who,
communicated to him which would justify a stateins h
nt he ad no doubt, would recommend such an improvement
to his constituents, but which yet might not be capable in the order as would give satisfaction.
of accurate and logical demonstration. D:d the right Cel. NORTH could boar testimony to much of what had
hon. germ ',mien, however, mean to tell this house th it fallen from his lien. an I gallant friend, and ha was sure
thine was no Language used by French military men the matter could not be in bettor hands than those of his
none publi bed by the jeurnale, none employed in hi
s partment.h hon, and gallant friend now at the head of the War Dc-
quarters, which offeuded, and justly offended, the peottle General BULK ELEY, in calling attention to the dietri-
of this country ? Did he mean to say that there were no bution of the Victoria Cross, referred to its bestowal on
facts patent to everybody which justified the appreben• the present Sir H. Havelock in a manner not undue to
sion of a collision between the two countries ? The right that gallant officer, for his distinguished service in heading
hon. gentleman might have remembered these facts in the 6ith regiment in a diffictilt service, but complained of
his calmer moments—for he had been unusually lively this by that- gallant regiment as being limited in its honour to
a single individual, whereas the service was of a nature
evening, while the noble lord was particularly tranquil,
entitling the whole regiment to a participation in the gloryi
(A laugh.) The allusion to what had passed in this house
respecting our relations with France was not quite fair tallied
i!,sactktuowledjement of the valour of attacking asTrillekulti
yg
and accurate. The moti in of the right hon. gentleman
which Havelock,
h eer ycs.oanys itrinevdausset, acceptreluctanthowever,injtaesticet
( tlrGibton) eansersd the late Government for not having ,
veryil 1
replied to a despatch affecting the honour and dignity of lant 64th Regiment. equally
y)
this country; and the House of Commons in paseing that Mr. BRISCOE a-veal in the opinion that officers who
resolntion did not decide that the kw of conspiracy might received the Order of the Bath were ashamed to wear it-
the order,
not be considered at a lit and proper time. The house When they roceivetl the order they sent it to a jeweller,
was of opinion that the Ministry did not discharge their who gave an imereased value to it ; but the "order," at his
duty ou that occasion ; but the right hon. gentleman , death, was applied for, and his relatives had to give it iii'.
thought the House of Commons was wrong Again. with S:r C. LEWIS said allusion leaving been made toto 1.1,1,1
regard to the affair of Naples, he (Mr. Whiteiside) main- observation of his when the annuity was propoi:olidexpL.
tainted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad just nationcon funrcetdh
that
tn
illiei rd I. A
notila v
meek,
th e Gbmo%gtgedi yt of
7iaiTo% Lti 011 Ott
cause for what he said as to the attempted amicable set-
tlement of that question. Jie esuld quite understand upon that gallant regiment itself, of whose gallantry he
the gallant officeri'who coruiauandeed. the'Gtith
that England, being on terms of fm iendship with Sarilir ia, entertained the highest opinion. (Hear-) Regiment, or
should wish to stand by a country governed not upon General PEEL was glad to bear his testimony to the
Mazainian pfneiples, not by the despotism of the soldier , valour of the Glth Regiment, than which a more gallant
or the priest, but upon conetitutional principles. Bet, corps was not in the service.
however v ell disposed we might be towards Sarditlie, we Mr. MONSELL expressed a hope that the lion. aithl gal-
were not bound at all times to undertake every quarrel lent gentlemen would carry out the objectilrelle wholea ion to i
she might engage in with other countries. Wily had not the Order of the Bath, being an object on whi • t 1
house was agreed.
this question been debated ! Ile lead read the papers mei
tically, expecting a disnussion in this house ; and he, 'Sir
Ithe , 0 was th " tins dled tear.
connecto with "eta,: Oise e s a
- W. CODRINGTON said that there were two things
maintained teat the noble earl at the head of the Foreign When an officer received it, he to=ts t,lcliged to go to a
effiee, altheneh he miglit not have newspaenee el itilei to ja,v.ellar to tat it, sa in silver. His hint<3,;lf ha I distributed
write him up, had discharged his ditty
r"Lleration, and ability. (ilia",) B rib the Henn) tent eiven to the Briti,di offireta was a In,ro tinselled oiler,
(w.Th.
altt i:sxseeiltle),
la and thewith
re
erightt,t 1:09 nind i a ; gentlemani seamedthe i,tt
wit!! firinef a-,, . the star 94 in silver to the French oflieere ; but the star
which they were ashamed te weer. the other conAdera•
te7;:av:l ' • was, , ,therewas a . .
tion
very costly t Ito thought the jewel might
.he inside much asked, no douht with perfect sincerity, what was the pa
i y, f the Government? Had the right hon. gentleman smaller, and in his opinion,
the family of an offieer on his death, it ought to. be given
ral the despatches? If so, he did not appearg •
to bare instead of b engta<en th•ein
mastered the principle which pervaded them. If the would descend to his children. (, hear ) Make the
by the Crown to the officer with (Hear understanding that it
right hon. gentl-man would examine these de'patches in order :is cheap as they liked, bat let it descend as an lion-
the philosophical manner in which ho read a book, be our to his children.
would undiretand the
Polley ef the Government --a lea Loll lIOTILI NI said it would be very desirable to have
lies which had not been dieapproved by
which they were not afraid would be disapproved by the
the house, and the or ler nettle lighter. As it was, it was so heavy that
country. The noble lord had concluded his speech by a 1 officer's brea-t by the action of his horse.
I it was always exposed to the danger of falling from the
Mr. WILLIAMS said, looking at the list, he saw an
shirt dissertation upon the constitution. It was a very l
onconst;tutional thing, he said, to threaten the house 1 imuiense number of officers and non-commissioned. officers
down in it as receiving peusiocs, amountieg in the whole
with a dissolution ; and of course it was even more un-
, to 2,240,000/.
eetistitutiomeil to ml's the act itself,Chen the
knowing what would otherwise be said to him, took good I Mr. Vs, ILLIAMS —Well, including the half pay. He
care to give a gentle and temperate rebuke t 4 his noble 'should have thought that, after the Crimean war, a dinai.

no commensurate benefit. He had heard it said that it
would be a great thing to have harbours of refuge on the
north coast of England, the north-east coast of Ireland,
and also on the coast of Scotland, but what he wished to
call attention to was this, that it was doubtful whether the
advantages would be so great as to jastify their expending
a million or a half or a quarter of a million on these har-
bours. A committee was now sitting upon this subject and
should they take any course committing the country to
begin otker works as extensive as those at Dover, Holy-
head, Portland, and Alderney, it would be the duty of the
House of Commons to step in and prevent what he thought
would be a profuse and wasteful expenditure of the public
money. He admitted that when the finances were in an
easy condition the taxes might be legitimately applied to
improving commercial harbours, but be believed that it
would be better to grant small sums in aid of harbours
already in existence, and which might be converted into
harbours of refuge for all practicable purposes, instead of
expending half or a quarter of a million in one particular
place. Half-a-dozen grants of 10,00:?. or 20,000/. would
do more to promote commerce than the expenditure of an
enormous sum of money at one particular place.
Mr. WILSON was surprised that his hon. friend had
taken this opportunity of saying what he had said, when
he knew that there was a committee still sitting, and on
the eve of making a report, which would be on the table
in a few diys. He was surprised that his friend should
endeavour to prejudge that question when the committee
upstairs had been sitting so long, and without seeing the
evidence which had been laid before them. He thought
it a most unfair mode of proceeding, and he would not
follow the example of his hon. friend by discussing the
matter. He was convinced that the evidence would dis-
close a state of things which could not be allowed to con-
tinue. He was quite aware that gentlemen who had in
their minds particular localities, or a particular class of
works, might wish to forestall the report of the committee ;
but that was one of the inconveniences which must attend
a matter of this kind. He could only say that ho believed
it was the intention of the committee to report in a very
few days, and, as at present advised, he had no doubt that
a motion would be submitted to the house during the pre-
sent session based on that report. His hon. friend would
have ample opportunity, with full materials, for judging
of the report on that occasion. The present vote was for
170,000/ , which showed a decrease on the vote of last
year of 51,0001., and it was stated that " this sum, with
the balance remaining unissued of last year's vote, will be
sufficient for the service of 1858-9." The vote, therefore,
did not represent the expenditure of the year. A mere
reduction of the amount of the vote would not lead to re
duced expenditure, and he wished to know how much the
expenditure for the ensuing year would be.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said if the hon. gentleman sup-
posed that all the information the house had was contained
in the vote, he was not surprised at his requiring further
details, but there was a note referring to a parliamentary
paper in which he would find the fullest particulars. As to
Dover harbour, the total estimate Was 650,000/., and the
sum already voted 346,000/. The vote now required was
34,0001., leaving for subsequent votes 270,003. Then
followed a detail of the work which had been done. As to
the hon. gentleman's question, the sum appropriated to
Dover lest year was 34,000/, which had been expended.
For 'Alderney the sum voted was 100,0)01., of which
there was expended 87,0001., leaving to be expended
1:3,0 01. in addition to the 60,000/. now asked. For
Portland there was voted last year 90,000/., of which
83,231/. had been expended, leaving to be expended,
nearly 2,0)0/. in addition to the 76,030/.
Sir C. NAPIER, said perhaps it would have been better
for his hon. friend to have waited for the harbour of re-
fuge report ; but for his part he wanted to advert to the
harbour at Dover. He had never been able to find out the
use of it. (Hear.) In 1812 and 1843 he had resisted the
vote, and showed that to take Dover as the site for such a
work would be totally and entirely useless for trading
vessels going from east to west, for they could not get into
the harbour. He thought that the sooner a stop was put to
the matter the bettor, for the cost was just so much money
thrown away. This was on the supposition that the har-
bour was for commercial purposes, bat if the Government
would show that it was for the defence of the country, he,
for one, would vote any amount they liked. As to the
Alderney harbour, would any hon. gentleman tell him the
use of it as a harbour of refuge ? It would be indeed use-
ful for French vessels, but not for English. Even if it was
for defence what was the use of it? Originally the use of
Alderney was that you could from thence look into Cher-
bourg, but now you could not do so. The other night he
bad called attention to the defences of this country, and
he trusted that no delay would occur in nominating the
commission he had moved for. He did not think that the
Government should lose a single day about it.
Mr. DUFF must say that he really did not know any
way in which the money of the country could be better
expended than in making a few national deep water har-
bours of refuge for the commercial navy, and also for de-
fence. He hoped, however, that the Government would
not neglect the suggestion of the hon, member for Mon-
trose (Mr. Baxter) as to expending small sums on other
harbours.
Mr. AIONSELLdid not think that the papers referred to
by the Secretary for the Treasury were calculated to de-
crease their desire to know a little more as to the harbour
at Alderney. The statement of the gallant admiral (Sir C.
Napier) was that the harbour would be of no use— (hoar,
hear, from Sir C. Napier)—and what was to be the cost of
it ? Why, something more than 1,300,000/. There had been
expended already C 00,090/. odd, and there remained to be
expended 703,000/, though the original estimate was only
6 0,00.,/. It appeared to him tol not too late to inquire
whether they could not limit their expenditure to the ori-
ginal plan, that which was to have cost 603,0001.
After a few words from Colonel SYKES and Mr. G. A.
HAMILTON,
•
Mr. BAXTER said he understood that it was ar-
ranged that the vote for Alderney should be reduced by
30,000/.
The CHAIRMAN put the question, that the Alderney
vote should be reduced by 30,000/.
Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask if any additional de-
fences were being built at Alderney ?
Colonel' SYKES recommended the Secretary of the
Treasury to make a calculation respecting Dover pier. At
present it got on at the rate of 3d feet a quarter, and au
expense of 35,000/. a-year. His opinion was that it would
cost nearer six millions than 600,00)/ , and that neither the
next generation nor the one after would ever see it
finished.
Mr. M. GIBSON said it was more fallacy to call Alder-
ney a harbour of refuge. It was intended as a rendezvous
for men-of-war, and so chosen as being near the French
coast. He did not see the use of it, and he feared that in
case of war it would be a source of weakness rather than of
strength. Still if ho was to vote 30,030/. he did not see
why he should not vote 60,000/., and therefore if he voted
with the hon. member for Montrose ho must understand
that ho had some clear and intelligible chance of retrench-
ment in view. As a general question he was in favour of
expenditure for harbours of refuge. With respect to
Alderney, he had great doubts as to the expediency of ex-
penditure there.
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped that after the discussion
that had taken place the hon. member for Montrose would
not press his motion. He was ready to admit that Alderney
was not intended as a harbour of refuge, but as a naval
rendezvous. There might be a difference as to the ex-
pediency of its construction, but the highest military au-
thoritied, inc'uding the late Duke of Wellington, had de-
clared for the necessity of the works shore. The works
which were.now voted for (the Alderney) had already been
commenced, and must be completed, but next year the go-
vernment would be prepared with estimates of their own,
and would be able to state definitively what, in their
opinion, ought to be done with Alderney.
Mr. RIDLEY supported the vote.
Mr. BRISCOE understood that even if these fortifications
at Alderney were completed, it would take 5,000 men to gar-
rison them, and that even with that force it would be impos-
sible to hold them against a powerful enemy. He would
suggest the suspension of the works, which he understood
hal already been adopted in Jersey.
Mr. MONSIe'LL hoped that the hon. member would not
press his motion.
After one or two further observations, the motion was
withdrawn, and the vote was agreed to.
21,0001., Holyhead harbour.
An HON. MEMBER asked when it was expected that
Holyhead harbour would be completed ?
Mr. GLYN suggested that the harbour should bo made
a place of call for the American steamers.
In answer to some observations by Mr. W. WILLIAMS,
Mr. HAMILTON said that on the death of Mr. Rendell
by the direction of the late Government a new estimate
was made by Mr. Hawkshaw, which was that under dis-
cussion.
Mr. WILSON said that injustice to the memory of Mr.
Rendell it should be stated that his estimate of 628,000/.,
was frame 1 on a far smaller proportion with regard to the
work; and it was in consequence of the repeated eaten-
siring of the plan that the increase in the estimates had
oc-
cu:
Mr. WILLIAMS could assure the hon. gentleman that
ho was mistaken. The estimate was made by Mr. Rendell
at 621,000/. for the same plan which Mr. Rennie and other
engineers estimated at 1,700,0001.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote, 1,0-19/. for the pay, establishment,
and necessary works at Portpatrick Harbour,
Mr. WILLI l MS said that it was now 11 years since as-
surance was given that there would be no further demaed
for this work.
The vote was agreed to ; as were
60,6-dl, for erection, repair, and maintenance of the
several public buildings in charge of the department of the
Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland,
18,506/. for the works and establishment of Kingstown
Harbour.
A RIM of 88,110/. for the expenses of the two houses of
Parliament was proposed.
Mr. WISE thought the details of the expenditure of the
House of Lords should be given.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said it was impossible to give them.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the vote ought not to be
passed without such details.
The vote was agreed to.
A sum of 51,000'. for the expenses of the Treasury was
voted.
The following votes were agreed to a-
-21.,7991., Howe Depertinent.
61,1100/., Foreign-office and Queen's messengers.
211,1711., Colenial-otlice.
67,8171., I'rivy Courted.
A sum of 2,720/. fur the expenses of the Lord Privy
Seal's Office.
Mr. WISE said a committee had recomended that the
office of Lord Privy Seal should be abolished. It was an
office that was quite useless, and was commonly held by
absentees. Ho trusted Government would consider this
subject, and see if the office could not be transferred to sorno
other department. Ile moved the rejection of the vote.
The committee divided
Fss the vote
71
Ageinst it
31
Me jority
—lO
The next vote was re.T;5l. for the offiee of Comptroller-
General of the Exchequer.
On the vote of '26,5751. for the office of Commissioners
' Works :Jill Politic Beildines
Tr. B. HOPE Colll pia in oil of the weriiiog of the system
o office of the Board of Wm kft, anil 'moo pnrtienl,rlv
failure in the cioction of new 'midi.: buildiops,
o:sing to the impolitic interference of the Treasury under
the late Adminstration.
Mr. WILSON said that the House of Commons, and not
the Treasury, was responsible for interfering with the free
action of competition for the erection of these buildings.
Mr. TITE expressed a hope that a select committee
might be appointed to inquire into the whole subject of
the competitive system as regarded our public offices.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS remarked upon an increase in the
salary of the private secretary to the Chief Commissioner
of Works. made avowedly on the ground that the chief
was a Cabinet Minister.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the duties of a private secretary to a Cabinet Minister
were not confined to the mere functions of the office of
Works.
Mr. W. WiLLIAMS objected on principle to enlarging

, notion rather than an increase would have taken place in
those estimates.
The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following
votes :-
16,358/. towards completing the expenses of war ser-
vices-
-39,5111. towards defraying the charges of general officers.
313,233. towards completing the allowances to retired
officers.
139,1327. towards completing the allowances and pen-
sions to officers' widows.
34,313/. towards completing the allowances to wounded
officers.
21,372/. towards defraying the expenses of Kilmainham
Hospital.
802,563/ towards completing the allowances to the out-
pensioners of Chelsea Hospital.
86,1101. towards completing the cost of the superannua-
tion allowances.
46,219/. towards completing the expenses of maintaining
the Royal Palaces.
Mr. WILLIAMS could not conceive how such a sum
could be proposed for the maintenance of the Royal
Palaces,
Agreed to.
110,631/. towards defraying the rent and expenses of
maintaining and repairing offices.
Mr. WISE, in reference to this vote, said it was much
to be regretted that the numerous small offices were dis-
tributed in various parts of the metropolis, and not con-
centrated.
Mr. WILLIAMS (after a few words from Mr. HAMIL-
TON, explanatory of the vote, and expre,sive of the inten-
tion of the Treasury to give their best attention to the sub-
ject), said that he saw a sum of 6,3311., and another sum
of 7,073/. put down in the estimates for furnishing and
maintaining those palaces, and also items for keeping up
certain old abbeys in Scotland.
Lord J. MANNERS said that the buildings referred to
belonged to the country. and if they were to be kept up at
all they must be so by the country. He could assure the
hon. gentleman, however, that he would do his utmost to
keep the expenditure down. As to the cost of coals and
firewood, he a 'witted that it was large, but this would be
almost the first year in which any attempt had been made
to introduce supervision into this department, and he hoped
that, by means of such supervision, considerable saving,
would be effected. As to the large number of houses re-
quired for the war department he admitted that the hon.
gentleman was quite right as to the facts, but as they came
under another item, perhaps it was better not to discuss
that question until they came to the proper time.
Mr. WILLIAM i said he found sums down for the
maintenance and repair of such places as Arbroath Abbey,
Dunfermline Abbey, Dumblane Abbey, and others in
Scotland. We had many old abbeys in this country, but
their maintenance and repair did not cost the people at
large anything. If these abbeys belonged to any place in
particular it was Scotland, and Scotland ought to pay for
them.

Sir G. LEWIS said the reason why the old abbeys and
public monuments in Scotland were charged on the public.
while those in England were not, was, that the latter were
gen-rally endowed, or were parts of large estates, while in
Scotland there were no such private and independent means
of support. With respect to the numerous houses that
had to be hired for public business, and the rents that had
to be paid for them, while he admitted that at first sight
it might seem more extravagant than to have a concen-
trated suite of public offices upon one spot belonging to
the Government, he doubted whether, on close examina-
tion, this would not prove an erroneous idea. It would be
resrellected that many of those houses were hired merely to
meet an accidental exigency, and could be relinquished
whenever the emergency passed away. Many of them also
ware devoted to business which required no immediate re-
ference to, or communication with the Secretary of State,
and ho believed that the concentration of the public offices
which had been so much talked of would not effect the
saving, or be in the end so economical as was generally
supposed. While he hoped that the present Government
would continue the arrangements for the erection of at
least a Foreign-office, and another, say for the War De-
partment, he trusted they would not commit themselves
to any plan for creating a great portion of Westminster,
and then come to the house with estimates to the extent
of a million, which, in all probability, would be doubled
before the works were finished. (Hear, hear.) In fact,
it app pared to him that many of the plans which had been
suggested on this subject had less the economy of the
public purse in view than to give the civil service a more
imposing character, and to embellish that part of the town
at the expense of the country. (Hear.)
After some remarks from Mr. SPOONER,
Mr. BAXTER said the sums allotted to the support of
the Scottish abbeys were paid by agreement on the abbeys
themselves being handed over to the Government.
Mr. SLANEY defended the expenditure upon these old
monuments, because of the gratification which visits to
them gave the public at large, to whom they belonged.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote of 26,9267., for furniture for public
offices and apartments,
Mr. WYSE called attention to the fact, that within the
last seven years the house had voted the large sum of
187,000/. for furniture. They voted 36,0 ',Ol.last year, and
now this year again they were called upon to vote nearly
27,000/. more. (Hear.) Our public offices had a voracity
for the consumption of furniture which was perfectly as-
tounding. Surely they would grumble if, as private gen-
tlemae, that item in their outlay amounted to anything
like the same proportion. Furniture should last at least
ten years, and although repairs might be required the sum
for,that purpose could not be anything like that annually
demanded under this heal.
Mr. HAMILTON slid the estimate for the ensuing year
was based upon that of last year, and he could ta,sure the
hon. gentlemae that the utmost economy would be exer-
cised under this head.
Mr. WILLIAMS quite concurred in the views as to the
extravagance of this vote.
Mr. TITE said he found under the head of the Museum
of Geology, Gower-street School, and South Kensington
Museum, an item of 5,705/. How much did the latter
take He could not help thinking that the vote was
lumped in order to cover an excessive vote to the South
Kensington Museum.
Lord J. MANNERS said that, as nearly as could be
ascertained, the portion of the vote fur South Kensington
Museum was 4,000/.
Mr. SLANEY considered the money was most usefully
and beneficially spent, and
After some further conversation the vote was agreed to.
On the next vote of 99,667/. for keeping in repair the
royal parks end plantations,
Mr. WILLIAMS said it appeared to bin that a great
deal too much money was expended in this department,
while, on the other hand, he thought that so much was
not made of them as might be done. A considerable profit
might be made in the sale of plants.
Mr. ADAMS urged upon the noble turd the necessity of
providing additional greenhouse accommodation at Kew
Gardens. Those gardens were not for the exclusive use of
any class. They were resorted to last year by upwards of
400,000 visitors of all cla ses, whose good conduct and
careful protection of the property in the gardens entitled
them to the highest credit. It was painful to see many of
the plants dying for want of proper protection. In answer
to Mr. Williams, he might mention that 10,000 trees had
bean taken from the nurseries in the Royal Parke for Bat-
tersea Park, Victoria Park, and othor places, all of which
would have bad to be paid for otherwise.
Mr. SLANEY highly approved of the money expended
on the parks and gardens, as conducive not only to the
health, but the moral well-being of the community. Ile
wished also to call the attention of the noble lord (Lord J.
Maunera) to the fact that there were few benches in Vic-
toria Park—a place frequented chiefly by the working
classes—and hoped that this additional accommodation
would bo provided for them. (Hear.)
Mr. HAMILTON said much credit was due to the late
Chief Commissioner, and that every endeavour would be
made to carry out the very proper arrangements which he
had commenced and contemplator.
Mr. SPOONER thought the house was rather lavish in
ex pen (in; money on metropolitan parks, while the people
of Birmingham, and other localities, were left to defray
Expenses of a similar nature out of their own pockets.
Lord J. MANNERS thought the metropolis had a de-
cided claim on the public at large ; but, in future, the ex-
incurred for public parks in the neighbourhood of
London would be comparatively small; and that the bene-
fitsbetnheefit of
countrythe
whole of
derivable from them would be of such a general nature
that the people residing at a distance would have to just
groan lof complaint. ([Tear, hear.)
ugeh s.tatbolis be supported fortlle
by Colonel SYKES said the Kew Gar lens were a botanical
at large. (Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
160,7081. was then proposed for the now Houses of Par
school
country, andinstruction,
liament.

Lord J. MANNERS said that sum did not include the
expense of the bell, nor the coat incurred in finishing the
face of the clock-tower. 8,0901. more would be requirei,
m-oi he hovel the h,lq, grant it.

Mr. WILLIAAS wished to know how soon tbis work
would be completed. (lieut..)

llin!,• to vote for the ad-
, . ,
clock and entrance arch
Mr. HANKEY cornpla nod that the hands of the now
ca liotilci,k)rn.
awiii eBiri:eoosn not
..
isfauoffirh
he
hi
weena
uti lnylitvni
iiitsseihbov
vl
(ei
to Palace-yard ; but he thought the beautiful exterior (1,-
corations would be moan damaged by the two kitchen
chimneys. ,He hoped some moans would ho taken to make
those chimneys conmitne their own smoke, and thereby
prevent them from defacing the beautiful exterior embel-
lishments of the now houses.

Lord J. MANNERS said steps were being taken to re-
medy the evil complained of. (Hear.)
Mr. SPOONER thought the sum asked for was very
large, and hoped it would be the last vote asked for.
Colonel SYKES inquired whether any arrangements
had been made for the consumption of smoke.
Lord J. MANNERS was not aware that anything of the
kind bad yet been done.

Sir B. r HALI, wished to know whether Sir C.
Barry hnd furnished plans and specifications of the work
remaining to 1» done, and estimates of the expense, and
whether the present vote would cover all future expendi-
tur.

Lord J. MANNEW3 said be had been furnished with
such specifications emit estimates, but had not bad an op-
pot tunity of laying them on the table of the house before
the recess. lie would now do so, and next week they
would bo printed and in the hands of lion. members. The
noble lord then laid the specifications on the table.
Mr. WISE wished to know what was the total sum ex-
pended on the now houses, from the commencement to the
present time.

Lord J. MANNERS was unable to state the total
amount, bnt the printed estimates would show the sum
expended since the last Parliamentary vote.
the vote was then agreed to.
3 1,0091. was then proposed for the War Department.
Mr. ti ttISUOF, hoped that ample accommodation would
1r.3 ;allude l hereafter in one building for all the officers of
the, dorartment.
After a few words from Lord J.. MANNERS, the vote
was ..greed to. •

• .
A grant of 31003/. was v..tel to defray the expenses
connected with Probate Registries, and another of 4,7110/.
to meat the expense of 11, Irish Embassy houses abroad.
0,1 tho motion that 170,000/. bo granted to defray the
expense of harbours of refuge.
Mr. 11 Xl` 1?., IZ, said there existed out of doors a wish that
the House of Commons would look more closely into the
question of the utility of those harbours. Ho should like
to know what the works at Dover had already cost, and
what further MU they wore likely to cost. As to the
(50,0001. for the harbour at Alderney, be was told that that
harbour would never bo any great advantage to the com-
merce of this country. Ho wished to elicit the views of
the Government as to harbours of refuge, for he had heard
a great deal said as to the oxiravagance of which the
House of Commons had been guilty in reference to this
matter. Beyond this he had heard it stated that there was
a great deal of jobbery in reference to the subject, and that
schemes were being hatched which it would, become them
to keep a jealous eye on. Ho thought that it would ill
become them at this time to sanction any maw vote on this
subject, which would involve ‘coniiderable expenditure,
said which expenditure he thought would be attended with

n

the salary, simply because a change might take place in
the statue of the chief.

The vote was agreed to.
21,009/. for the public record and State paper-office.
On the vote of 253,0521. for the salaries, &c., on account
of the poor-laws,
Mr. M`MAHON proposed to reduce the vote by 130,0001.
the itam for the salaries, dret., of schoolmasters and school-
mistresses. These salaries were already paid out of the
local rates, and they were again levied by -the Imperial
Exchequer.

Mr. :HAMILTON warned the house against re-opening
the settlement of 1846, by which the consolidated fend
bcre half of the expense of the Irish constabulary.
Mr. WHITE supported, and Mr. BAGWELL opposed,
the reduction.

Mr. BOUVERIE believed that the salaries of the school-
masters and schoolmistresses, under the present system,
were much larger than they could be if drawn from the
consolidated fund.

Mr. AYRTON contended that the education of pauper
children was a national, not a local question.
Mr. I. BUTT thought it would be much better to raise
the question on the vote for medical relief.
Mr. Me.MAHON withdrew the motion, but moved the
reduction of the vote by 100,0001., the salaries of the me.
dical officers in the several poor-law districts.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the settlement of 1846 vies*
complex one, and he did not think it could be disturbed in
detail. He believed that Sir Robert Peel meant a fair
settlement when he relieved the landowners of certain bur-
dens in consideration of the repeal of the corn-laws.
Mr. W. MILES denied that Sir Robert Peel meant this
in the way of compensation. If honourable gentlemen
would take the trouble to investigate the question, they
would find how much more the landed interest was bur-
dened more than any other class. By the repeal of the
cor❑ laws many small fat mere had'been reduced to labour-
ers in this country, or were poor settlers in a foreign court•
try. He admitted, however, that of late legislation had
been in favour of the farmer. He had no objection to
enter into the question of the re-adjustment of local bur•
dens, but he thought that was not the proper time for
doing so. His wish was that eventually taxation would
be equal.

The CHrINCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could net
see the distinction that had been drawn by some hon. mew
hers between medical officers and ichoolmasters, and the
remuneration paid to, the same. The transfer of this and
o• her charges, both in England and Troland, from the local
rates to the Consolidated Fund, was not proposed by the
late Sir R. Peel as a compensation for the repeal of the cofn
laws. The course recommended by the hon. and learned
gentleman was not a wise one, and he asked the committal
to negative the motion. He did not think this a fitting
opportunity for discussing the readjustment of local taxa.
Lion.

Mr. WILSON said these charges on the Consolidated
Fund were proposed by the late Sir It. Peel in mitigation
rather than compensation for the repeal of the corn laws.
He hoped the hon. gentleman would not come to an issue,
on this important subject on so narrow a point of view.
Mr. I. BUTT considered this a very simple question.
The same plan that was adopted in England ought to be
applied to Ireland, and not compel Ireland to pay its own
charges for medical officers, and a share of those charge%
for England. It was not just or honest to Ireland, and
unless the Government would give the committee a pledge
of considering the question with a view to its alteration,
he would vote for the amendment.

After some remarks from Lord JOHIg BROWNE And Mr.
AYRTON,

Mr. M"MAHON having replied,
The committee divided, and the numbers were—
For the motion
Against it
Majority ... —7O
On the vote being put,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY suggested an amendment of th?,
laws to get rid of the Poor-Law Commissioners, which
would effect a great saving.
The-CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEqUER moved !
vote of 50,0001. on account, for defraying the charges 13
civil contingencies for 1858-9.
After some remarks from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
excess of expenditure of last year arose from exceptional
circumstances, arising out of the commission to China, the
Paris Conference, &c. All he asked for was a sum on As'
count, and he hoped the committee would allow this vote
to pass.

air. D. MICHELL objected to so large an amount be:
ing taken on account, and moved that the chairman repor°
progress. _ _

Sir G. C. LEWIS hoped the hon. gentleman would not
persist in his motion, but allow the vote to be pawed'
Ample opportunity would be given for discussing th°
question when the remainder of the question came before
the house.

The motion was withdrawn, and the vote agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress and the house re'
Burned.

The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad•
journed at ten minutes to one o'clock.

Country Markets.

LIVERPOOL, MAY 28.

There was a slender attendance of buyers this morning'
The only change in price was a reduction from Tuesday 01
Gd per qr. on white Indian corn, the best selling at 34s to,
34s 6d per 4801bs. ; yellow corn Gd higher. Wheat and
flour were both held with much firmness, and, if any
change, the common sorts were considered about a pnollJ
per bushel dearer. Oats, barley, beans, and peas all sor
ported recent values.

WAKEFIELD—MAY 28.
There was a good supply of wheat. The demand W
limited, but last week's prices were nearly maintained'
No change in other articles.
AVERAGES FOR TUE WEBFL ENDING MAT 21, 1853.
Wheat 1514 quarters, at 41s 10d
Barley 7l ~ 36s 114 d
Oats „ Od
Beans 5O „ 42s 4id
Peas