The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-01 00:00:00

this question. He could not understand why they might
not be permitted, in connection with hon. g
thenei tlemen
one
on
the other side of the house, to advocate r opini
upon it, especially as they were told it was not a party
question. No one could doubt that it was one of the
most important subjects that had ever been broughtthat his
for-
ward in that house. (Hear.) He was certain
noble friend was neither prompted by party feeling nor
animated by a spirit of faction in bringing forward this
motion, but that, on the contrary, in doing so he ex-
pressed not only his own sentiments but the convictions
of a great number of persons who entertained the
gravest doubts as to the expediency of proceeding at
once with Indian legislation. Immediate legislation was
not so easy as some persons seemed to imagine, nor had
they been hitherto so lucky in the result of their colonial
measures as to warrant the conclusion that it would be
Taii,e to proceed in this hurried manner to legislate upon
subject of such vast importance as the future govern-
ment of India. He was warned by the late Chancellor
of the Exchequer not to speak diirespectfully of the wis-
oto of Parliament ; he did not wish to do so, but be
foul& not forbear calling the attention of the house to an
essay of the great philosopher and historian, Mr. Hume,
;who, in speaking of politics as a science, remarked that
a free Government always managed its dependencies
worse than did an arbitrary Government, and he con-
trasted, not very complimentarily, the conduct of France
in regard to its foreign dependencies with the conduct of
England in respect to Ireland. Mr. Hume wrote before
the difficulties with Canada, and before it was found
that the best mode of governing a colony was to allow
it.to govern itself. From the nature and constitution of
the Indian mind, however, there must always bge_ a_e
arbitrary Government in India, and Ir a k_edo,
was it a trivial thing to dovetail an arbitrary Gh
-vernment with a free constitution He spoke of t e
house with great respect, and adm
theired
use oit in theommon C highest
degree, but he was convinced, if :f
could not legislate in a manner satisfactory to Canada,
that legislation being consistent with the pro ervation of
the principles of freedom, it could not do so for India,
the government of which necessarily involved totally
Were the Government in a position
tierent rinciles.
off a
dvisethe hopuse with weight upon the Indian ques-
tion I They had brought in a bill, th had abandoned
it, and they had now, at the suggestion ey
of the noble lord
the member for the City of London, brought in these re-
solutions. He did not complain of their taking that
course ; he had no charge of vacillation to bring against
the Government ; for he thought it might be fairly said
that they had acted as they had done, not from any
change of mind, but from the difficulties of their position.
They were driven to the coarse which they pursued, and
no one who heard the speech of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer the other night could entertain any doubt
whatever as to his real sentiments. He reiterated his
opinion that they bad better not legislate at all ; but if
they were determined to legislate, the bill he had pro-
paged was the best ; and he concluded neither with a
ruction for non-legislatios nor in favour of a bill, but
for a committee upon resolutions. No member in the
house could be so young and so green as to suppose that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was satisfied, or that he
would have taken the course which he had if he was cer-
tain of that large majority upon ordinary questions which
gave to a government importance and real power.
" 0 that some power the gift would gie us,
To see ourselves as others see us."
lie heard from every quarter what a precious mess the
House of Commons had got into—(laughter)—and would
anybody deny that that was the opinion of hon. mem-
bers themselves I The hon. gentleman opposite said that
it was for the honour and dignity of the house that they
should proceed to legislate. His (Sir F. Baring's) opinion
was, that it was for their honour and dignity, when they
made a mistake, that they should retrace their steps. He
was not an ad vocate for the East India Company, but be
thought it strange that, considering the many eminent men
the company had produced people would be rather asto-
nished, after some 70 or 80 years of government, that the
only complaints against the system were that Leadenhall-
street and Cannon-row were some distance from each
other, that frequent messengers were required, and a
good deal of money was spent in cab hire, and that those
were the only grounds on which the company was to be
destroyed.
Mr. M. GIBSON would not have ventured to address
the house, which he thought was ready for a division,
bad not the right hon. baronet taken upon himself to give
him such a very peculiar title, by calling him the father
of all mischief. (Laughter.) He never felt more gratified
in his life than when he had been instrumental in that

piece of mischief, the destruction of tie Conspiracy to
Murder Bill. He was opposed to that bill, and took Vie
course which he thought was best to defeat it. He bad
been successful in accomplishing his object. The right

hon. baronet seemed to yearn after a species of dictator

ship in that house. Now he (Mr. M. Gibson) did not
complain of Government having recourse to the advice
and opinion of Parliament. (Cheers.) He thought the
time wile approaching when Parliament would more and
more advise Ministere, and Ministers dictate less to Par-
t ament—(hear)—and it was a subject of great congra-
tulation to him to find the Government of the day willing
to take the 13(!nee into its councils. He believed that if
the Goveinment of the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton had taken the house more into its councils it would
not have fallen. He bad heard the speeches in favour of
the motion now before the house, and he declared he had
not heard one good argument why they were not to
change the government of India—not tolegidate at this
particular moment—it being at the end of the month of
April, and they having yet four months of the session
before them. There were no doubt legitimate reasons
fir delay in reference to legislation upon this subject,
but those reasons had not been assigned in the present
instance. No man could say that it was not in their
power at the present moment to possess themselves of
all the information that could be desired upon the sub-

j.c,. By a reference to the voluminous evidence taken be.
fore the committee of 1858, of which he was a member, all

the information necessary to lead the house to a decision
upon a legislative measure could be procured. He con-
curred in the propriety of the course suggested by the
noble lord the member for London, inasmuch al it would
give the house an additional stage for the consideration
of a subject of such importance and of so great and com-
plicated a nature as the present was. He therefore
thought that proceeding by resolution was the best pos-
sible course that could be devised under the circum-
atancee. He did not c.-insider it at all an evil that the
Government had adopted a change in their course of
proceeding on this question in consequence of the sug-
gestion of the noble lord the member for London. He
was the more fortified in his opinion that her Majesty's
Government had acted wisely from the fact announced
by the right hon. gentleman the late President of the
Board of Control, that the noble lord the member for
London had distinctly suggested the propriety of pro-
ceeding by way of resolution previous to the introduc•
tion of the measure on India by the late Government.
(Rear.) He would ask whether it was not the object of
those who asked for delay to defeat the measure altoge
ther if they could. (Hear.) Jeremy Bentham, a great
writer on political fallacies, said he never knew an in-
stance in which delay in respect to any particular mea-
sure-of legislation was pressed, that it was not the inten-
tion of the parties who urged that course to defeat if they
could the measure altogether. The right hon. gentleman
the member for Portsmouth, amongst his other argu-
ments against legislation, used that which might be
termed the hobgoblin argument. (Laughter.) When
that right bon. gentleman could not convince their rea-
son he endeavoured to frighten them by all sorts of ter-
rors from the consideration of the question. He hoped
that there would be an early division upon the proposi-
tion, and that the house would immediately proceed to
the discussion of the resolution. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I presume that as those
who sit upon this bench had the honour of first introduc-
ing a bill on this subject, the right hon. gentlemen who
sit on the opposite side of the house are of opinion that we
should first express our intentions in regard to this mo•
tion. I can have no hesitation whatever in stating that
it. is my intention to oppose the motion of the noble lord.
(Hear.) I entirely agree with the hon. member for Taun-
ton (Mr. A. Mills), that it would be most inconvenient,
not only as regards the interests of the country so con-
nected with India, but with the honour and dignity of
this house, if we were now to attempt to retrace our
steps, and to do nothing at all upon the subject. (Hear.)
The noble lord bases his motion on the ground of change
of circumstances. No doubt, sir, many circumstances
have changed since this question was first introduced to
the house in the present session. I am, for exanaple, ad-
dressing this assembly from this side of the house instead
of from the other. (Hear, and laughter.) That change of
circamstaneee may have its effecte and its consequences;
but I cannot think that any such change of circumstances
can furnish as wi h any reason fur not proceeding with
this question. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen may have
more or less confidence in the existing Government. The
right hon. gentleman who has just eat down declared it
ae his opinion that her Majesty's late Government had
fallen from inherent weakness, and that they would have
acted much better if they had taken Parliament into their
councils. I may here observe, in passing, that if the
right hon. gentleman would but look at the division lists
et the house, he would find that the late Government
Lad, generally speaking, as large majorities as any Mi-
nistry could reasonably hope for ; such a fact implying
that Parliament was v ry much of the same opinion as
ourselves on general questions of legislation. (Hear.)
Sir, I will not enter into the question whetaer the course
now adopted by the present Government is the best which
under the circumstances they could have taken. My
opinion undoubtedly that it would have been more fit-
ting for them, when they thought proper to wi:hdraw their
particular bill upon India, to have brought in another bill
rather than to clll on the House of Commons to proceed
by way of resolution. But, at the same time, looking at
things as they now are, I am perfect y ready to go into
committee on these resolutions, and to consider them
%puisttibaiesiwnictehrewhdeastire of making them as consistent as
upon tho, en• ject. appears to me to be sound legislation
be use to considere consequences But. I do entreat the
f acceding to the
motion of tho !loth, lor:lo."7cnenees
tAs regards.the speech of tho
rty:ht hors. gentleman the tueuibe
for Portsmouth (Sir
F. Bar;ng), that wa speech, not i
a
s
in favour of the
motion cf the rich, e lord, todneflaje thismember measure for a
br Hun-
Beeson—it was not in support
lion-
tins who wanted to put off legislation
ar ;it was rather an argument against any another
year
on this matter at any time. ([fear, hear ) legislationhp ,t
my right hon. friend will excuse me if I foibearueanswer-
inght-
arguments which I do not think meet the question
at present under our consideration.the ground
upon which the present Government when they came
into office stated their determination on this subject was
a Sound and constitutional one, The noble lord at the
bead of the Government stated that originally he was
adverse to legislation at this time on the question.; but
inasmuch as Parliament had, by a large majority,
recorded their opinion that legislation upon India
was necessary, he thought her Majesty's Government
wee fully justified in giving up their oWn notions on