The Sun.
London, England, 1867-03-15 00:00:00

THE REFORM BILL.

Mr. LOCKE called the attention of the house to the de-
lay that had taken place in the production of the papers on
the subject of Reform, alluded to by the noble lord the
member for Stamford, which the right hon. the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, on Tuesday the sth inst., said he hoped
to be able to lay upon the table of the house in a few days.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
papers would be in the hands of the members by to-morrow
or Saturday.

Mr. GLADSTONE asked whether the printing of the
Reform Bill would be so expedited as to be in the hands of
hon. members on Tuesday morning.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied in
the affirmative.

Mr. GLADSTONE then asked whether the returns to
be laid before the House as to the number of male occu-
piers
would distinguish between those who paid their own
rates and the compound householders. Turning to the
business of the evening, he pointed out the peculiar im-
portance of these Estimates, which involved not only an
increase of charge, but the stoppage of some important
work now in progress, and the commencement of other
extensive works, and insisted that in the absence of Sir J.
Pakington, who had framed the Estimates, and Mr. Corry,
who was responsible for them, it was impossible for the
House to discuss them satisfactorily. He suggested that
the Secretary to the Admiralty should make his state-
ment, if that were absolutely necessary for the public ser-
vice ; but that no vote should be taken to-night, since those
members who wished to discuss the general policy of the
navy would be precluded, if the first vote (for wages) were
once passed.
Mr. WHITE interposed some remarks on the statistical
question, insisting that what the House, already suffering
from a plethora of statistics, wanted was "less figures and
more frankness."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER protested
against Mr. Gladstone's request as utterly unreasonable
and unintelligible, and pointed out that for seven years
under Lord Palmerstou's Government the Naval Estimates
had been annually moved by the Secretary of tho Navy.
The progress of public business, :he asserted, would be
seriously retarded by the delay proposed by Mr. Gladstone,
since Mr. Corry could not be in hie place before the 25th

inst., and, while dwelling on the general responsibility of
all the Ministers for the Estimates, he Added that but for
the accidental non-return of his writ Sir J. Pakington
would have been in his place to assist the Secretary of the
Admiralty. He complained warmly that Mr. Gladstone's
tone was not such as the Government had a right to count
upon, and intimated that, though it would be convenient
to proceed with the Estimates, he would leave it to the
house.

Sir G. GREY maintained that the proper person to move
the Naval Estimates was the person who represented the
Admiralty in the House of Commons.

Lord IL LENNOX said that he had undertaken the
duty of proposing the Estimates at three days' notice, but
after Mr. Gladstone's remarks he should decline to make
any statement which was not to be followed by practical
action. (Here there were loud cries of "Go on.")

Mr. B. OSBORNE denied that there was any ananimons
desire on the Opposition side to prevent Lord IL Lennox
making his statement. Lie hoped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would persist in putting him up, for subordi-
nates were generally so "sat upon" by their chiefs that
they had few opportunities of displaying their talents.
There was no reason why he should not take a vote on
account to-night.
Mr. STANSFELD insisted that if tho first vote were

agreed to the opportunity of discussing the important ques-
tions of policy involved in the estimates would be lost, and
it was impossible to discuss them in the absence of the
head of the department.
Lord J. MANNERS replied that for some years under
the late Government the Army and Navy Estimates were
discussed while the heads of the departments wore in the
Upper House.
The propriety of only taking a vote on account was urged
by Mr. foreman, Major Jervis, Mr. Sandford, and Captain
Vivian.

Sir H. EDWARDS strongly condemned the obstruc-
tive course of the Opposition, and Mr. H. BAILLIE in-
sisted that the Government ought to move the vote in the
ordinary way, and the Opposition, if they thought fit,
might then object.
Lord H. LENNOX again protested that he would not
make his statement on sufferance, or any condition differ-
ing from those under which the head of the Department
would have made it.
The house then went into committee of supply.
THE NAVY ESTIMAT ES.

Lord H. LENNOX, who was indistinctly heard, said—
Before I make my statement, I must in a special manner
claim the indulgence and clemency of this committee, con-
sidering how short a time I have had since I received no-
tice from her Majesty's Government of their wish that I
should, in consideration of the present state of public busi-
ness, undertake this duty. The first point to which 1 will
draw the attention of the committee J:lefore I proceed to

speak on the votes which form tho bulk of the estimate, is a
short epitome of the sums that were required for the service
last year, and the amounts we ask the committee for this
year, I will distinguish in the several votes the effective from
the non-effective branches of the service, and allude to the
salient points in which the present estimates differ from
those of the past two years. For the year 1866-7 my gal-
lant predecessor (Lord C. Paget) asked the committee to
vote £10,388,739. But during the course of the session
several supplementary votes were added, amounting in all
to £46,500. One was for the first three months' increase
of pay of the medical officers of the navy. The vote I now
ask for is £10,926,250, being an excess of £545,000 over
the original estimate of last year, and £190,518 over the
ordinary and supplementary estimates together of last year.
The committee must not suppose the whole of that sum is
due to the effective service of the navy. For the effective
service this year we shall require £9,067,758, showing an
increase of £480,260 over the similar service for last year.
The non-effective service this year requires £2,000,000.
But over many of the items of this vote the Board of Admi-
ralty have no possible control. The first is an increase in
half-pay and pensions. The second is for the transport of
troops, a matter resting entirely with the War-office, whose
orders in such matters the Admiralty are bound to obey. A
third item is £50,000, or the first year's moiety of £lOO,OOO
towards building a turret ship for the colony of Victoria.
That is a question of colonial policy, it being con-
sidered desirable to encourage that colony in a self-reliant
spirit of self-defence. The salient point of increase of esti-
mates is the item of £528,000 excess over last year in vote
10, section 2. But there is a reduction of £175,000 in the
Storekeeper-General's Department, which will reduce that
increase. The committee will remember that it is very
difficult in these days to keep down estimates when every
day there are costly inventions of science both in ship-
building and gunnery. I can assure the committee these
estimates have engaged the careful attention of the
Board of Admiralty, and that no item of increase has
been admitted without the most scrupulous consideration.
It will be interesting to the country to know that the exact
force of ships in commission amounts to 554. Vote No. 1 for
the number of seamen and boys, shows a reduction of 285
officers and men. Of that number, 13t are commissioned
officers, and there is a smaller reduction amongst the sub-
ordinate officers. The reduction amongst the officers is duo
to an arrangement sixteen months since stopping the entry
of engineers into the navy, in consequence of the great
number of those officers in the service. The other reduc-
tion is duo to the minute of Sir A. Milne restricting, for
the same reason, the entry daring the past year of naval
cadets, there being four years supply of these young gen-
tlemen in excess. There is also a decrease of petty officers
and seamen to the extent of 145. The number of men
asked for this year is 37,015; last year the number was
37,300. But the reduced number involves an increase of
cost, for the 37,015 men this year cost £1,990,862, whereas
the 37,300 men last year cost £1,979,048. Adding the
supplementary votes, the total cost of the 37,300 men last
year was £1,982,703, or £8,159 less than the reduced num-
ber of men required this year. That increased cost is due
to the generosity of the house to the medical officers, and
to the fact that there are more officers of high rank draw-
ing pay this year than last year. The Board of Admiralty,
to allow for the waste in the navy, have decided to add 418
boys to the numbers last year, as the most efficient mode of
supplying future seamen. It is usual on these occasions to
say something with regard to the moral and physical wel-
fare of the men and the popularity of the service. I can
with great pleasure announce that their condition is most
favourable. The waste of our seamen is under 10 per cent.,
or less than it has been for many years. The number of con-
tinuous service men has increased from 31,336 on 31st March,
1866, to 31,612 on Ist January last. That is satisfactory, as
showing the popularity of the service. Another satisfactory
test is the decrease in the crime of desertion. The propor-
tion, in 1862, was 4,1 per cent.; in 1863, 3 per cent. ; in
1864, 3 per cent.; in 1865, 21 per cent.; in 1866, 2} per cent.
and in 1866-7 only 21 per cent. There is another point
which may be looked on as a test, and which is equally
satisfactory, and this is the increase in good-conduct pay,
wh!ch this year is very considerable. There is another
point, tending in the same direction, also very satisfactory.
While in 1861 the number of trained gunners was 2269, in
1866 they had risen to 5,786. I must not only call atten-
tion to the moral welfare of the navy, but to its sanitary
state, which lam happy to say is most satisfactory. The
sick rate is 133.8 per 1,000, the average during the last 10
years being 147.2. The death rate is the least recorded in
any past year, being 10.5 per 1,000, or 1.1 per 1,000 lower
than the average rate of mortality amongst the healthiest
operative class in the country. There is another subject
which must be probed and met, because it is one upon
which not only the efficiency of our arrnyand navy depend
but on which ,depends in a great measure the strength,.
vigour, and energy of the human race. This is the subject
of the hospitals for contagious diseases and the accommo-
dation which has been afforded in several of the seaport and
garrison towns. Three of those institutions are under the
immediate care of the Admiralty, and the others under the
charge of the War-office. I shall ask the committee to vote
a sum of .£1,500 this year in excess of the vote of last year
for the provision against contagious diseases. Though at
Portsmouth, from want of accommodation, the success had
at first been small, the progress since that accommodation
was provided has bsen very satisfactory. Accounts received
yesterday from Hasler Hospital showed a diminution in
the number of cases, and an amelioration in the severity of
the disease. At Plymouth a new wing was built to an
hospital, to which the Government subscribed, accommo-
dation being provided for 60 of those unfortunate people.
The hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, in speaking
on this subject when the estimates were under discus-
sion, contrasted the proposed system of this country with
that of France, where, he said, they not only cured the
body, but tried to save the soul. I have much plea-
sure in informing the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ayrton), who
said he would not sanction any vote unless some such
means were adopted hors, that the Admiralty have sanc-
tioned an allowance of £lOO per annum to each of the
ports where hospitals have been established, for chaplains
to attend three times a week. The unfortunate patien is are
taught domestic duties, such as household work, washing,
and ironing, and a large percentage are reclaimed and re-
turned to their patents or to service. The committee, I
think, will be of opinion that no increase on last year's
votes is better bestowed than this £1,500. The increase in
this vote is owing to the increased cost of provisions, for
which the Admiralty are not responsible. The next vote
is for the Admiralty, in which there is the largo increase
of £3,300. Considering the great increase of work
in that department, the only surprise is that the increase
should not be greater. The committee will have some idea
of the accumulation of work when 1 state that the number
of letters sent has increased within the last few years from
30,000 to 75,000. In the comptroller's department the
number of letters had increased from 32,823 in 1860 to
69,139 in 1866. In vote 5, for the scientific branch, the
only thing to notice is that the school of naval architec-
ture is flourishing, and that a small increase is asked to
increase the number of students from 24 to 30. Vote 6
is for wages in dockyards. On this vote there is a de-
crease
Itaxes, policeannudmbo r o
fe xmpeenn dein% uprleo,
ytehd erein
of .£1,650 ; though in some small items, as rent,
sdockyardsrnall increase.an d
isthea
factories there is a decrease of 297. In 1866-7 the num-
ber was 18,618 ; the expense being £1,065,191. The pre-
' sent number is 18,321, who cost £1,064,635. So the
saving from this decrease is only £559 ; for though the
number of men employed has decreased, the number
of men actually on the establishment has in
creased. As to the artificers, they are persons who have
been apprentices and gone through a period of service ; and
some who have been employed in the dockyards with the
prospect of being employed in higher grades. During the
official inspection made by the Admiralty they had inter-
views with deputations from artisans in every branch, urg-
ing, with much justice, the necessity of an increase in their
wages. These representations were made with such firm-
ness and respect that, if it had been possible, they would
have obtained what they asked ; and nothing could be more
distressing than to be unable to accede to their demands.
But at that time there was great distress in all branches of
the shipbuilding trade; and it would have been bad poli-
tical economy to increase wages when mon in abundance
could be engaged at the wages then being paid. The day
labourers had, however, received a slight increase, because
their pay was too small to enable them to support their
families. The increase was ld, and in some cases 2d aday.
The increase on this item amounts to £7,708; but it will
give the committee an idea how costly any such change
must be.' The pay of the masters of sea-going boys has
also been increased, they being engaged in the conveyance
from one dockyard to another of valuable cargoes. In con-
nection with the yard service, which cost £224,380 this and
last year, this question had received attention from the
Board of Admiralty ; and he thought there was room for
further inquiry. The late First Lord of the Admiralty
(Sir J. Pakington) agreed to nominate a committee of two
gallant officers (Sir Sydney Dacres and Admiral Symonds)
and two civilians, to inspect the dockyards with the view
of reducing the expenditure under this head, and yet pro-
moting the advantage of the public service. Com-
plaints are made as to the inefficiency of dockyard ship-
building as carried on under the system of day pay.
Sir J. Pakington inquired into this during his official
tour, with a view to more economy. At Chatham and
Pembroke piece-work is carried on up to a certain point,
and the last two vessels, both ironclade, the Hercules
and the Bellerophon, built there under the orders of
the Duke of Somerset, were so built. There is some hope
that the system will be applied to repairs and rebuilding.
(Hear, hear.) When the present board came into office they
were struck by the amount of expenditure upon repairs,
and they concluded that vessels unfit for active service
should not be repaired or refitted, unless that could be done
at very small cost and for temporary service. Consequently
while the charge for repairs was £50,000 in excess of the
charge f. r building, there is now £60,000 for shipbuilding
in excess over repairs. (Hear.) As to the reserve, Sir J.
Pakington said last year there was difficulty in getting the
necessary release of small vessels on foreign stations. There
are now seven vessels available for this purpose, including
two frigates, the Mersey and the Liffey, two iron vessel;
and two sloops. There is the greatest demand for reliefs,
the commodore in command of the African squadron being
specially urgent, because he is obliged to keep his vessels
ou the coast, and cannot send to St. Helena or AfiCeliSiell