The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-06 00:00:00

*‘4B Sc":of LONDON, SATURDAY TNENI NG, FEBRUARY 6, 1858.

T l- •

---.la, l',
_ - - -- 1131. It ~.. ? eference to the strong expression of feeling which f
suoh marriages were often the result of political
was
• i with him that allowance must be made for it in the
sonetheot 1 ° ... been made in his own country, that we must feel
enee, but in this case, he was happy to say, itw
circumstance that had called it forth— that the people
and was likely to secure domestic e the 'continent not knowing the
,nature of our
illustrious personages,
affection, after a lengthened acquaintance between .
T• noble lord eon- o - ,
I Intend, naturally form expectations which those
we, Wad applying to us the principles by which they
Presented la
eluded by moving tbat the
who
happiness. (Hear, hear.
to her Majesty by the whole house,feeling
hear.} The
should be lord
to the km
satisfied that an
sw the principles and working of our system of go-
that mode of presentation would be a 3 gratifying cment are aware cannot be carried out. The hon.
it yen
members of the house as, he was authorised to state,
Which
'earned gentleman wishes to anticipate a discussion
would be to her Majesty herself. (Cheers ) Hislordship
which would more properly arise on Monday next.,
moved the address. when T. shall move to bring in tee bill of which I have
Mr. DISRAELI seconded the motion. He re-echoed w .
con- given r
eluded by observing that he hoped when venice. I shall not allow myself to be led by his
what had been stated by Lord Palmerston,he d
anday
came exampl 9 into a premature discussion of that measure,
that her Royal Highness became ot
f Prussia she but win 'n I propose it I shall be prepared to state its
would be as popular amongst her subjects
(418e'i as her Ma- nature, . tad the reasons upon which it is found. But I
(Cheers.) must pro. Vat against the ground the hon. and learned
jesty was amongst her English subjects. unanimously. gentleman Aas taken. The hon. and learned gentleman
The motion was then put and carried
house alludes to sz Y violent and intemperate speeches, and
Oa the motion of Lord PALMERSTON, the .
was adjourned though they n Light have been read in France, he would
till to-morrow at 2 o'clock, to assemble
Queen with urge that on t heir account the parliament of this coun-
then for the purpose of proceeding to the
try ought to be prevented from taking any steps which
the address.
THE REFUGEE QUESTION. otherwise, upon .the merits of the case, parliament might
think proper ter adopt. NV by, speaking of intemperate
Mr. ROEBUCK rose to move the adjournment of the speedhes, I might well say to the boa. and learned gen-
house, in order that he might be able to ask the question tleneau,
of which he had given notice. He said :—That question " Quis tuterie Gra.cches de seditious querentis ?"
(Cheers.) If any m.en alive more than another is in the
is to know' whether there has been any communication
habit of using violent language against foreign countries
between the two governments of England and of France , it is the hon. and learned gentleman, who indulges
with respect to the alien laws of this country, or with occasionally in the most unbridled license against almost
respect to any portion of our criminal code. The house, every government and aliseest every man alive. (Cheers,
I believe, will understand the reason why I put this mat "oh, oh.") If there is anything
is upon wh h we
question. They must have heard that since the event pride ourselves in this coupt ry itour freedomic of
e sob, and that leads us sw irequently to pass over the
which lam sure inspired every Englishman with feelings violent effusions of the hon. and learned gentleman—
of regret and detestation—the recent attack upon the thus respecting the principle. which we may disapprove
life of the Emperor of the French—there have appeared sof the manner in
v't which he exercises it. (Hear.) I ray,
in the pages of the Moniteur certain addresses to the
' it would be most undignified in the people of this coun-
try...... nay, it would be most childish conduct in the people
dresses, naturally enough, were expressed in terms of
Emperor of France from the French army. Those ad-
of this oonntry—if, because of certain violent expressions,
strong condemnation at the attempted violence against certain intemperate addresses made against the people
the Emperor's person, and also great indignation g
at the
of England, they were to allow themselves to be swayed
authors of the attempt so made. Now, sir, if these from the course they might otherwise think right to
expressions had rested there, I should be the first to pursue in reference to their internal legislation. (Hear,
hear.) We ought to make due allowance for the
sympathise with and give my cordial concurrence to
irritation which has been naturally excited in
every sentiment they contained. But from the French
France. I will suppose that there issued from
army there came also accusations against England, as
Paris on more than one occasion murderers attempting
though England were a participant in that attack upon
similar atrocities here to those which have been attempted
the person of the Emperor of France. (Hear, hear) I
in Paris ; would not the people of this country feel the
will, with the permission of the house, state the iminedi-
greatest indignation, and would they not be likely, in
ate object of my question. Hon. gentlemen are aware
speaking of such attempts, to go beyond that precise
that the Moniteur Is not an ordinary parser ; it is in fact
accuracy of expression which nationsonght to be guided
the Gazette of the French government. Everything it by in their transactions with other nations ? I trust,
utters is under the immediate inspection of the French
therefore, however we may disapprove of these violent
government, and that goverement is the Emperor.
expressions of feeling in Francs, that we shall make al-
(Hear, hear.) Therefore what appears in the pages of
lowance for the circurestances under which they were
the Menneur is the reflex of theopinions of the Bmperor
made—that we shall consider what would have been our
of France. Well, sir, in the pages of the elioniteur
Linings in a similar case, and under similar circum-
there appear these attacks upon the E,-glish people, and
stances—and that we shall not be led away by consider-
one colonel of a French regiment of the line—full, T ' ations of what may have been said by individuals in
suppose, of military ardour, and that loyalty which France or elsewhere from that course which, upon the
he bats no doubt exhibited to every ruling monarch
',urns of the question, we airy think fit to follow.
that has appeared in France—asks the French Ens-
(Cis eer e)
perer to be led against that haunt, that den, the repairs
Mr, HORSMAN had listened to the speech of the
of homicide, meaning England. Well, that language
noble lard with great attention, and must say that he
is published in the pages of the official Moniteur.
It is published in fact by the French Emperor. That is
regretted the manner in wh ch he had referred to his hon
his opinion ; and I wish now to state my opinion. (1 and learned friend, and the manner in which he had an-
laugh from the front Ministerial benches, answered by swered Inn question. He (Mr. Herman) had intended
loud cheers from other parts of the house—mere particu-
to talcs no part in the discussion, but he felt that they
larly
from the benches immediately behind Ministers.)
The French Emperor is the person to direct against ought not iu justice to allow such imputations to be cast
England accusations of being the den of conspirators ; upon any member of the house as, upon a question in
and who could speak with greater knowledge of the which they were all interested, had been most unfairly
tact than himself ? (Cheers.) Has he not euj )yed the cast upon his hon. and learned friend. Hie hon. and
protection and hospitality of England? (Mar, hear.) , learned friend did not complain that there were indivi-
Has he not, too, while so enjoying that protection and duals in France who had insulted the national character
hospitality, acted the part of a conspirator himself ? of England, but that persons near to the E.nperor, and
(Loud cheers.) Did he not leave these shores armed who must have his confidence, were those who had con-
with the great name of his great predecessor—the name cocted this charge against the people of this country.
of the great Napoleon—did he not, armed with that (Cheers.) These addresses of the French colonels had
name, and with a tame eagle—(a laugh)—go to France been published in the Moniteuv, the Government paper,
and there attack the throne of King Louis Philippe— and circulated under Government influence throughout
and did he not murder thi man who in the performance France, to show to an excitable people what was the lan-
of his duty opposed him ? (Renewed cheering.) And guage the Emperor appeared to approve in regard to
this is the man who chooses to publish in the pages of the attack which had been made upon him, and to show
the Moniteur accusations against England for being the to the people of Europe what were the terms in which
, haunt and the den of homicides, where conspiracies are they might suppose the demand had been made upon the
hatched, and which ought, therefore, to suffer invasion. Government of England for future security against the
(Hear.) But it is not confined to that—the brother of repetition of the crime of which the French Government
the Emperor of France (the Count de Morny) has chosen very properly complained. Tee whole grievance of his
in the Legislative Chamber of the French nation, to hon. and learned friend was, that it was the government
accuse England of being participant in this attempted of France—the authorities of France—which bad maee
crime. And not only he, but the Count de Persigny, these charges; and on that ground it was that he at tubed
the eanbaesador of France—in England, in the presence an importance to them which he would not bad they
of Englishmen—has dared to make the same accusation; emanated from mere private individuals. And then, as to
aye, sir, and in the presence of Englishmen he has not the manner in which his hon. and learned friend was in
been answered—(hear, hear)—the only reason that I can the habit of deporting himself in that house. He had,
conceive being, that the wow; who heard him did not like his noble friend, sat many years in that house with
understand him. (Cheers, and a laugh.) But I cannot his hon. and learned friend, and so far from being cur-
believe that any Englishman could hear his country so prised at his expressing himself in strong language, he
libelled, no matter by whom, without indignantly re- elicited be mach more surprised if, with his feelings,
pelting the accusation. (Cheers.) Those persons who under the circumstances to which he had called attention,
heard the Count de Persigny accuse England of being he had not done so. No doubt his hon. and learned
participant in the criminal proceedings to which I have friepd had frequently expressed himself strongly, but it
alluded ought thereon immediately, and on the instant, if had always been the expression of honest feeling and con-
they understood him, to have answered him. (Hear.) scientious conviction, independent of party ties and party
Theydid not; but I will. (Hear.) I will say to him that obligations. His hon. and learned friend was in the habit
no man more than I estimates highly the &Mates be- of castieg his censures broadcast through the house, but
tween England and France ; but there is something I they had all become o 'evinced from long experience of
estimate still more highly, and that is the honour and his integrity of purpose, and that while be was careless
position of England. (Cheery.) And so believing and so of what enemies he made, no man in the House of Corn-
feeling, I would have told him that there was nothing mons was more flee from personal enemies than his hon.
in the character of Englishmen that in any way soever and learned friend. (Cheers.) He felt, then, that his hon
conduces to or lends a sanction to assassination ; there is and harried friend Lad been somewhat severely dealt with
nothing in the history of the country from the beginning by his noble friend. His hon. and learned friend had
to the end that can justify such an accusation. (Sear.) expressed sentiments that evening which were his own,
No English king has fallen by the hand of the as-assin, for which he was re Tensible, and he was not the men to
though Kings of France have. Ws have condemned a shrink from the responsibility. But to say that his lan-
King to the block, it is true, but it was in open day. guage was habitually so strong that he was an example of
(Cheers.) Neither have we ever sent or hired anybodsy what ought to be avoided and was deserving of blame,
to kill any other sovereign for our own national eat'. - he (Mr. iforsmen) could only repeat that, after a very
faction—privately, I mean, and by assassination. (Hear.) long experience of his hon. and learned friend, he be.
My answer to Count Persigny would have been that the lieved that his worst enemy could not pick a hole in the
people of England are above assassination. When they whole of his political career, or cast a stain upon that
feel indignant they express it, and go to war, if neces parliamentary life which ha had sustained with so much
sary, to vindicate their honour ; but they do not task to honour and integrity. (Cheers.) He understood hisnoble
avenge themselves privately, or by secret expeditions in friend to say that there had been one despatch from the
steamboats, or, by assassins, make private attacks upon Government of France upon the subject of his hon.
any foreign government, or any foreign sovereign. and learned friend's question, and that it would be pi o-
(Cheers.) They do not make conspiracies in London to &iced. (Hear.) He did not know whether any answer
pull down a government iu Paris, Their coarse is open had been sent to the despatch, but he presumed, before
and honourable in dealing with their enemies as with they came to the discussion on Monday, that they would
their friends. (Cheers.) When I came into the house have all the papers on the sinned laid on the table.
yesterday, 1 heard in my ear something like an inspi- (Hear.) It would also be desirable that they should have
ration about a contemplated change in the Alien Act. the opinion of the law offices of the Crown—because if it
It was said that at the solicitation of the Emperor of the should be found that these functioraries agreed in the
French we were about to alter the Alien Act. I will say opinion expressed by veryhigh legal authorities elsewhere,
nothing of the ingratitude of the man who now asks us it would be clearly manifest that the alteration of the law
to alter a law by which he has profited so largely, But they were to be asked to sanction was unnecessary, and
England owes her position amongst the nations of the that the existing law was sufficient for all purposes, This
world in consequence in a great measure of the manner was a pclnt to which he attached great importance. But
in which she has treated time people of all nations who be wooed not anticipate the discussion, but trusted they
have sought the asylum of our shores. Napoleon, Met- would have all the information brought before there Wore
ternich, the Bourbons, and Louis Philippe, have all they were called upon to deal with the question, so that
sought and obtained a safe refuge here; but no man they might be enabled to judge bath as to the propriety
,niii, no man had a riht to say, that we should alter our of the demand made by the Frer;ch Government, and of
laws because we gave them teat refuge ; and I say, if the e):xe2sion which it apparel the Government of iii.
we change the law on this occasion we violate the first country were prepared to make.
principles of our constitution, we degrade ourselves Mr ROEBUCK (who was
met with a cry of f/Q ice.
before the world, and are no longer the English people '
that our forefathers were. Well, I come to the house time) hoped the noble lord would consider the request h t
with my ear lull of this inspiration. Wbat was my eur- was now about to make, that the despatch of the French
prise to hear from the noble lord an announcement tiat Government should be laid upon the table, and also tee
he would on Monday move for leave to introduce a bill answer of her Majesty's Government to it, as soon as
fur altering ,the Alien Act in regard to conspiracies.
possible, so that hon. members mi •
ght have it in their
What suggested to the noble lord the necessity of such a •
charge ? Was it that any person of authority—for tie .
I
noble lord, with all his accomplishments, is not a lawyer
—had told the noble lord that the law of England could h
not reach conspiracies, or that the punishment which bands before they were called upon to enter on the d•
on next Monday. (Hear, hear.) With ls. suasion
the
noble seed bad said fhi
w s ed by him " like the idle wind"'
regard to
(Mhirc.hßoebuck), it
he regarded
not. Pas" He asked the noble lent to pointw to
the ameliorated law of England awards to such crimesexpression
he had used that could bear out the descriptionally
was insufficient ? Fur at least a quarter of a century weft, theh noble
lord had given of the language he was
have been doing all we could to render the criminal law!bit of
using. (Hear.) He might have uttered stroll the
.
of England less bloody than it had previously been. A opinions,
but he defied the noble lord to show that g
quarter of a century ago our criminal code. was the mosthe had used
violent languaee—(cheers)—nor had he used such lan
cruel in Europe, but from that time to this we have by
guage on the present occasion. (Hear.) He would are;
experience learned that a mild punishment certainly
the noble lord and the house to recollectwhat
administered is the most effectual preventive of crime. he had
said. (Hear, hear.) He had said that England had
Oar own domestic experience has taught us that. What ,
and that th • Itfrom her a
insulted, e 'esti carne the Emperor of
is now suggested by the uoblelord ? Teat we should
re: race our steps—that whereas conspiracies have hiteerto Franc'. (Hear.) Was there any violent language in
been visited by fine and imprisonment, we should a:tn. that ? (Cheers.) Teat was a strong statement
n
doubt—but was not the evidence in support of it tt g'
and bring back the law to the old standard of cruelty
else. ([Lear, hear.) Why, the people of En tandirhica I
lord is one of very significant importance. If England
which we had abandoned. My question to the noble
been threatened before—even in his time—notg that tee
wishes to hold her place among the nations, if she wishes could recollect it, for he was a child when it occurred.,
The
still to maintain her own independent position, no
r r
of the French—the first great
Naoleon—he man who bore the name now held by the
-
solicitations of an ally, no threatening of auyeoly,
Emperor
shore of the Cannel, threatened England, from
ought to lead us to alter our laws. I have been told the Pu
opposite
that, as a tification for the i solence with which with invasion ; and though he disagreed in the policy
jein
adopted by our ancestors on the occasion, he could not
England has been treated in this matter, the noble lord's
but admire their towering thought, and the thoroughly
speech at the Mansion-House in Nov. has been brought
forward. God forbid that the peopleof England should courageous demonstration with which the menace of
the great Napoleon, surrounded as he was by his legions,
be made answerable for all the indiscreticns of the noble
and fresh from the victories of Jena, Austerlitz, and
lord. Ido not say, I do not believe, that the noble
lord was imprudent on that occasion ; but admitting
Vienna was met. (Hear.) He hurled defiance act him
r _
we focieht hint and conquered him ; and should we,
that he was, no man knows better than the E.npero:
who than bad treated wilt) contempt and defiance the
of France how very little the noble lord cxprs.esee the
feeling of the people of England. (Chears and counter menaces of Napoleon lc Grand, qu til before. the threats
/Napoleon le petite. (Cries of question, and immense
of.
cheers.) If there was on that occasion a little mena- e
cheerise.)
—a little vapourine on the part of the noble lord, it can .
LordPALMERSTON would lay the despatch from
be said that the peoplel England as a nation,
scat cely e % the French Government on the table to-morrow (this
its to suffer for Cie bad tests of the Miuister, (Einar.) r
k day.) No answer to it had been sent (Hear.)
We bad publicly expressed our detestation of the attac
Mr. ItOECUCK then withdrew his motion for the
on the Emperor of France, and I want to know, there-
adjourament of the house, and the subject dropped,
fore, what could have induced him to turn routi,edstuti.
Taut ANNUITY TO LA DY lIA.VE LOCK AND MAJOR
the people of Euglend as he has done, and mare..
SIR 11. HAVELOCK.
press, his own
hostility which he has, through his own
Minister, and his own ambassador, shown towards this committee
The hone having resolved itself into ,
country ? (Hear, hear.) Tee question I have put to . ,
l'ho CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER rose
the noble lird is—has there bees any c)rreepondenee
and said—lt will be in the recollection of the house that
with the Court of France or the alinister of Frauce on
iu our short ineetir, before Christmas a graciou3message
the subject of an Alien Bill, or uPon the "i -c of any was delivered to title house frees her Majesty, stating
alteration of our criminal code 1 (Cheers.) her wish that, as a signal mark of her favour.hati been
Lord PA.I4IIERSTON—I can have no difficulty in benowed upon Major-General Havelock, some provision
answerin' bins by this house. That message
g the queetion of the hon. and learned might be made fir
gemlentan. There has h ena 1 ire aei by having been taken into consideration by this house, it
F a viespatcli . i• 1 ,i
the French Minister of was agreed to o.aitt to Sir 11. havelock an annuity of
'reign Affairs to NI.
P'r,i4rlY, the French ambassador d o LOOM a year, and a bill founded upon that re.o.ution
here, bearing upon
WWI subsequently intro Inc d. During the discussion,
the late transaction -
sat Peris, and urei a on him tie took place epee that bill and upon that rei.o.ution
I necessity of applying to her M 'n'
uP
wb'eh
ajesty's Goveinment to a strong feeling was expressed that addition should
take such measures as the in endanher Majesty's Go•
fit in refereuce t circumstancey their wisdom ma think be made to the proposed grant ;
...,..
~
Lo the ; not to dictate vernmeet undertook upon the reassembling of Yarlia.-
any
measured, but simply to put the case to her , mast t) introduce a provision for extending the see uity
Government to deal with as they -
That is the nature of the des tbmight think proper.
son. Unhappily it has not been in the power of her
difficult:, whatever in layi4a ' and I can have no Majesty's .
ot. before Peril& Gover-ment to redeem that pledge, for at the
(Cheers.) Bet, sir, in replying to the hon. and learnednaent. very time that the dignity of a baronetcy was conferred
gentleman, I feel bound, in -the first place, to repel t upon General Havelock, and that the annuity was voted
charge which the hon. and learned gentleman has made by the ho he I •• to his exer.
t• . use, had already fallen a victim . ,
against the Count de Pereigny. Count de Persigny imomae in the service of his country. Tee honour con-
never accused the British nation of conspiring wita ne.rrted by the Crown and the bounty of this house Veld
assassins—(hear, hear)—or with intention to
give
pro_ tera:herefore, take effect, and it became my duty yes-
tection to assassins. Ho stated . distinctly to her with ytt,t:Mveth.) discharge of the order for proceeding
Majesty's Government—Count Persigny stated to me . the subject which_h had been introduced with respect to
T Government ho
, waver, being desirous

of carrying substantially into effect the recommendation
of tho Crown, and being also desirous of acting upon the
understanding which had been come to with this house,
has decided on proposing an annuity of 1,0001. a year to
Lady Havelock. By a most gracious act of her Majesty
Lady Havelock has been placed in precisely the same
position as she would have. been if her husband had been
alive when he was created a baronet, and we have
thought that we should be giving effect to the wishes of
this house by proposing a grant to her of 1,0001. a year.
We propose also to grant an annuity of like amount to
the present Sir H. Havelock. (Hear.) Now, Sir, I
think that this house would not have objected to vote
an annuity of 1,0001. a-year to the present Sir H.
Havelock even if be were an undistinguished man, and
had merely succeeded his father in the ordinary manner
of hereditary honours, but I would call the attention of
the committee to the fact that the present Sir H. Have•
lock has proved himself worthy of the gallant and heroic
deeds of his father, and leas himself, in the course of his
military- profession, rendered distinguished services to
his country ; and, looking to his own merits, I think
that the house will feel themselves justified in conferring
upon him a token of their approval. (Hear) I will
state to the committee what has been the military
career of Sir H. Havelock :—Brevet-Major Havelock
entered the army (Queen's service) as ensign in 1846,
became lieutenant the 23d of June, 1848, and captain on
the 9th of October, 1857. The Commander-in-Chief had
great pleasure in recommending him for his promotion
to a company shortly after the action at Cawnpore, and
recently for brevet rank of cosi ,r, no less as a reward for
his own gallant and meritorious services than as a tribute
to the memory of his gallant father, by who e side he
fought in those numerous engagements which rapidly
followed each other in brilliant succession and terminated
in the relief of Lucknow. Alajor Havelock was deco-
rated with the Victoria Cross for his cool bravery at
Cawnpore. It was on that occasion that Mej )r Stirling,
a gallant and distinguished officer, fell at the head of the
64th Regiment. Major Havelock's horse was shot under
him at Busserut Gunge on the 29th of July ; he was
severely wounded in the right arm by a musket shot at
Lueknew, and been repeatedly mentioned in despatches.
I will trouble the committee with an extract from a
telegram from the late Major-General Havelock to the
Commander-in-Chief, dated Cawnpore, Aug. 13, 1857,
and which appeared in the London Gazette of January
the 15th—

of the personal merits of the present Sir A. Havelock it
would no doubt be the desire of the kouse that it should be
carried out. But he thought it necessary to add that the
present Sir H. Havelock was not an inefficient, inactive re-
cipient of this reward, but by his vigour and consummate
courage had carrie I for himself an honourable position in
the army. He did not mean to say that there were no
other officers as brave and distinguished, bat that Major
Havelock was distinguished for his personal merits. These
were the grounds of his observations, which he (lid not
think were irrelevant to the question. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. INGRAM said that every ono must agree that this
pension was rightly given, but he thought it ought to be
charged on the revenues of India. There were two parties
to these pensions, those who received and those who paid
them. He thought that the people who had stirred up the
insurrection ought to feel its effects and to pay fur it. The
pension of Lord Dalhousie was charged on the revenues of
India, and why should not this be paid from the same
source ? At the same time ho was far from saying that
Major Havelock did not richly deserve it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
was always the case that officers in the Queen's service
should have their pensions charged on the consolidated
funds. It was so in the case of Lord Gough, Lord Har-
ding,e, and others. With regard to officers in the service
of tho East India Company, the custom was to grant pen-
sions charged on the revenues of India-; and in the case of
Gen. Wilson, who had received the same pension as Gon.
Havelock, it was charged on the revenues of the East India
Company.
Mr. GRIFFITH said ho had no fault to find with the
Government for the proposition they had made, for no ono
sympathised more in the pliant deeds of that great man
than he did ; but it did happen last session that the forms
of the house precluded discussion on the subject.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the house re-
sumed.

MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. H. HERBERT said that he had introduced this bill
in the early part of the session, but as he had received many
suggestions on the subject, he thought it better to with-
draw the bill and introduce another. He, therefore, moved
that the order for the second reading be discharged.
EAST INDIA LOAN.

Mr. V. SMITH, who was indistinctly heard, rose to
move for leave to bring in a bill " for enabling the East
India Company to raise money in the United Kingdom for
the service of the Government of India." He said that
the bill which he rose for the purpose of asking leave to
introduce had been rendered necessary by tke emergencies
which had arisen 'out of the state of affairs of India, and
it would probably surprise no one, that in consequence of
the confusion which existed there, the East India Company
should come to Parliament for power to borrow money. The
bill was strictly limited to the necessities of the present
purpose only, and extended theposvere of borrowing which
he should propose over this session and that of 1859.
The house might not perhaps be aware how the borrowing
powers of the East India Company stood; and they were
rather singular. In India the directors had unlimited
powers of borrowing, subject to the approval of the Board of
Control, but in Etelland the Board of Directors could only
exercise borrowing powers under certain acts of Parlia-
ment, the first of which was passed in the reign of William
111, Their powers of borrowing in England were limited
by these acts to seven millions • they had exhausted these
powers to the extent of four millions, and when the mutiuy
broke out powers to borrow three millions only remained.
The ordinary course of Indian finance had been inter-
rupted by that event, but the way of it was this. The
Government in India supplied all that was necessary for
expenses there, and the Home Government gave notice at
the commencement of every year what amount of money
was to be remitted from India, which was either received
in money, or bills were drawn on In lie. The mode of re-
gulating the supply of bills was, that when' they wero
superabundant they were checked by lowering the rate ( f
exchange, and when they were insufficient the supply was
stimulated by raising the rate of exchange. That was the
manner in which money was received from India, and it
continued until the recent calamities occurred. Theo oc-
currences had naturally limited the supply in India, and
the Government there had given notice that four millions
extra would be required, and that only two millions was
available to meet bills. In the present state of affairs the
East India Company had to see how they could make all
their resources available. In the autumn the Government
in India gave notice that no more bills must be drawn on
India, and that besides they should require a supply of
bullion. The directors replied that no more bills would
he drawn ; they also transmitted a million of bullion, and
nconsequence i ni n I nwelhi wrote r
theote back
Five t o
per
cen thatt
.
they maid they would give the Government in India a fur-
ther supply of a croro or a crore and a half of rupees if ne-
i° s s a rThe
of Governmentthe way
Loan had been raised they would not require a further
supply of bullion. The difficulty in which the Board of
Directors foun 1 themselves was this. Their expenses
were very great • they had to pay for the transmis-
sion of all the eroops which were sent out to India,
and they had been sent out in unusual numbers. It,
was only by means of their revenue at home that they neat
this difficulty. The condition of these revenues was as fol-
lows (as we understood) :—About one million on cash ac-
counts, about 1.3 million in securities, 1 million in the 3
per Cele s., and 1,800,00) in Exchequer Bills. All these
resources had been called in existence, and were nearly ex-
hausted. He would here make a short statement of the
receipts and expenses of the year 1853, and of the estimate
of receipts end expenses for 1859. The right hon. gentle-
man then, in a low tone of voice, read a statement of the
different items of receipt and disbursement, of which it
was impossible to catch accurately a single item. The re-
sult was that a sum el" about 9,500,0001. would be required
fur the service of the two years. It was in order to provide
for the raising of this suns that he now asked for powers to
the East India Company to borrow a sufficient amount to
cover it. The exact amount that would be required would
be about 8 millions, but as the Indian Government would
probably require bullion to the extent of a million, he pro-
posed to give powersto borrow 10 millions. The only other
alteration in the law was, that proposals for the loan might
be received in England. Ho did not suppose that any ob-
jection could be made to this proposition, for the house had
always shown a desire, since the disturbances in India, to
provide all means of meeting the emergency. Ho believed
this was the easiest means of providing for the emergency,
and in consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
and the best financial authorities, it had been thought the
best mode of raising the money would be by debentures
rather than bondsnle proposed that the security should
be debentures. A 3 there would be so small a balance in
hand in April, it was desirable that this bill should ;sue as
speedily as possible, and he was sure the'house would have
no objection to expediting its progress, and any information
that was required ho should be happy to afford either in
private or in the house. The necessity for such a proposi-
tion had been foreseen and came as no surprise on the
money market. The only reason why this bill
was not introduced in the short session before
Christmas was, that as parliament had met only for a par-
ticular purpose, no measures net applicable to that purpose
should be brought forward, while there would be sufficient
time before April, 1858, for its consideration.
Mr. T. BARING said that heagreed with the right hon.
gentleman that there could be no doubt of the readiness
of the house to afford all means of meeting the present
emergency in India, aed even to support, by grants of
money, the preservation of our dominioa in that country.
But he must express his astonishment at the mode which
the Government had adopted to raise this loan. lie should
rather have anticipated that the right hon. gentleman
would have prefaced his observations by a declaration that
her Majesty's Government had abandoned all idea of le-
gislating for India. As the right hon. gentleman had said
that the bill would give borrowing powers to the East
India Company for two sessions, he ought to have added
that it was not proposed to interfere with the government
of India for two years. To whom was this borrowing
power to be granted, and on whom would the responsibility
devolve ? The noble 1 net at the head of the Government
had given such distinct notice that it was notorious that it
was intended to place India directly under the Govern-
ment at home. What government was to borrow the
icons,)'? The sight lion. gcntl ‘fiasa did is -A Pay that the
money was immediately wanted, nor in what manner it
was to be expended. But he gathered from the statement of
the right hon. gentleman that only a very small portion of
the 10,00),000I. was waisted for repayment of inetnediete
expenses or ad sauces, and that the rest was to be borrowed
successively at different periods as it might be required,
between the present time and the middle of next year.
Was the East India Company to exist till the middle of
next year as the governing power of India? If not, why
was the company to have the power to borrow and the
control over the money. He had always imagined that
the first condition of assent to a loan was that it was re-
quired for immediate and necessary purposes, and next
that it should be known by whom the money was bor-
rowed, and by whom it was to be spent; anti then
that it should be borrowed on the cheapest and most
favourite terms. Now all these conditions the hon. gen-
tleman had failed to satisfy most mischievously and un-
constitulionally. He asked again who was to have the
power of borrowing the money ? According to public re-
port
the East India Company was in ex tremis. Thu house
ought not to give a dying body the power of borrowing
money, or disposing of money, or to confer such a power
on some body that was likely to follow. (Hear, hear.) The
money was to be borrowed in the course of a year aml a
half, when, according to the declaration of the Govern-
ment, there was to be no East India Compaly, and the
future Government was unknown. He did not ask the
sight hon, gentleman to reveal the whole of the Govern-
ment plan, which might not yet be matured, but he asked
him to lift up the corner of the veil, and to show some por-
tion of the marvellous wisdom of the Treasury Bench, so
far as to chow who was to have the management of the
loan. If the management was to be in the hands of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, he should have perfect con-
fide's:se in his character and integrity ; but it would be
most impossible for him to watch the disposal of the
money. It must go through some ether channel, and if
the power should be delegate.l to an agent, the money and
the paymaster-general might be cut away. (Hoar, hoar,
and a laugh.) Before granting the power now asked for,
the house, ought to know by what Government the money
was to be rsised by what Government it was to be
spent, who va.s to be responsible, and whether or not it,
was the intention of her Majesty's Government, in giving
to the East India Company the power of bur rowing until
the middle of next year, to continue their authority until
that period. (Hear.) The best thing the Governrusir. could
do in the present emergency would be to refrain from agi-
tating the public mind by legislation on Indian affairs.
(Roar.) In saying this he expressed no opinion but his own,
for he had n i communication with the East India Company
on the subject, and wish,d to guard himself against being
supposed to know whether they were in favour of the bits
petal la in the general
or n it. In taking charge of their
sentiments of which ho concurred, he was not committiug
himself to the support of any policy, and would not have
undertaken the duty of presenting it except in the exorcise
s.l
erciiio
sie
of an independent jud t
judgment. In the exorcise of 1
indeperalent judgment he was commenting on the me .sute
of finance now nailer consideration. The right hon. gentle-
man prop Aoki that the lean should be raised inhe could
When a loan was filling up in India at 6 per cent. I
understand the necessity of borrowing moneynof India we s to in this ceun-
England.
try. But he would ask, if the government
1.•
f the Crown, why as lat,
be the government o I was not
hire the advantage of enjoying the credit of the country •F
which it was a past. W 11:, refuse the advantage of faaili
power of
money ? He
tating in India the
ofbeh°lerrn°t win„
to India with perfect
tiered that money
py.
security, and that it could reimbursed by gradual a
?acute from the revenues of India. Whether the money
waelent directly, as had been the case with regard t other
to) it would be a perfectly safe
countries, by gu and a benefit to which Judi' ),
was legitiasately entitled.
operation for this cossstr,
(u
(Hens,
hear.) Money had la,ero Demerara, and other colonies, i'as
gt anted to Canada, t
to those colonies, but with secu-
rityonly with great advantagen
1 had become a bond of mutual to this country, -11,
lid the • t o el coeu rye tint
in-
terest betweto the c 0101.116,
this was refused to In Ita when this country was about to
take the auverivuent of India into its own hands. The
Governmentai were chary of guarantees. But did they y not
gum:Antes a
loan to Turkey to put the finances of that
country in order ?
Were the finances of India of less
iin-
-1 so as to .n
eueo the Oros ernment to Hesitate the
granting of is lean to In-lit Why refuse to Inqia tip

" In the combat at Cawnpore, Lieutenant Havelock was
my aide-de-camp. The 64th Regiment had been much under
artillery fire, from which it had severely suffered. The
whole of the infantry were lying down iu lins, when, per-
ceiving that the enemy had brought out the last reserved
gun, a 24-pounder, and were rallying round it, I called up
the regiment to rise up and advance. Without any other
word from me Lieutenant Havelock placed himself on his
horse, in front of the centre of the 64tb, opposite themuzzle
of the gun. Major Stirling, commanding the regiment,
was in front, dismounted, but the Lieutenant continued to
move steadily on in front of the regiment at a foot pace on
his horse. The gun discharged shot until the troops were
within a short distance, when they fired grape. In went the
corps, led by the Lieutenant, who still steered steadily on
the gun's muzzle until it was mastered by a rush of the
64th."

In that most gallant charge the commanding officer un-
fortunately lost his life, but Major Havelock happily
survived the daring attack. I will not trespass longer on
the attention of the committee further than to express
the hope that the resolution which I shall now place in
your hand:, sir, will ba unanimously agreed to. (Cheers.)
The right bor. geutleinan concluded by moving the fol-
lowing resolution, viz.:—
" That the annual sum of 1,000/. be granted to her Ma-
jesty out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Biitain and
Ireland, the said annuity to commence from the Obis thy
of February, 1858, awl to be settled in the most beneficial
manner upon Lady Havelock, tho widow of the late
Major-General Sir H. Havelock, of Lucknow, Knight
Commander of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath,
for the term of her natural life."
" That the annual sum of 1,0001. be granted to her Ma-
jesty out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain and
Iceland, the sail annuity to commence from the sth day of
February, 1853, and to be settled in the most beneficial
manner upon Sir Henry Marshain Havelock, Bart., eldest
son of the late Major-General Henry Havelock, of Luck-
now, Knight Commander of the Most Honourable Order
of the Ball, for the term of his natural life."
S:r J. PAKINGTON thougLt the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had correctly anticipated the feeling of the
house when he anticipated its unanimous concurrence in
this propoeitien. Amongst the events of the mutiny
none had inspired more sincere or more universal regret
than the death of the late Gen. Havelock. (Hear.) He
believed that throughout the country a feeling of grati-
tude was entertained towards her Majesty for the
honour she had conferred on Lady Havelock and her
son, and it was the general impression both in and out
of Parliament that her Majesty's Government were doing
no mere than their duty in recommending the House of
Commons to bestow these annuities on the widow and
son of the late ga'lant general. (Hear.) He entirely
agreed with the right hon. ntl Allan, and he believed the
hoses would have concurred in this motion, even if Ma-
jor Havelock had Lem an ordinary individual ; but on
the contrary, it was known that he was treading gal
lantly in the steps of his father, and every one must hope
that ha would continue his career of glory, and ling enjoy
the reward given to him by his country.
Mr. KINNAIRD bore his testimony to the feeling with
which the country would view this reward to Major Have-
lock. Ho held in his hand an extract of a letter from Gen.
Havelock, in which he expressed his anxiety that he had
not been able to make adequate provision for his family—
for after 42 years' service he had been only able to accumu-
late 4,000/.' which, together with a small insurance on his
life, was all he had to reave. He was sure that when this
was known by the country, there would be a warm and
universal recognition of the propriety of the course which
had been pursued towards the family of Gee, Havelock.
Mr. BYNG expressed his cordial approval of the resolu-
tion, and at the same time was anxious to express his ser-
row for the loss, and his admiration of the services of Gen.
Havelock, whose character as a soldier, whetherfor bravery,
energy, and strategetical skill, had never been surpassed.
With the private life of Gen. Havelock it would be pre-
sumptuous in this house to deal; but it might be permitted
him to say that he was the perfect type of a Christian hero,
and though unhappily he had not lived to be aware of the
recognition of his services by an admiring Sovereign and a
grateful people, he had at least enjoyed the consciousness
of his having done his duty, and that his last act was that
of rescuing a heroic and enduring garrison from a fate at
the contemplation of which every one must shudder. So
long as the highest Christian virtues, bsilliaut courage, and
the highest military capacity were esteemed, as they al-
ways were in England, the memory of General Havelock
would be loved and admired.
Mr. GRIFFITH was far from desiring to disturb the
unanimity of the house with respect to this vote, and there
could be no doubt the proposition of the Government would
be ratified by the feeling of the country. But he wished
to point out how
'the proper functions of the house had
been overlaid by the forms of proceeding in such niaVers.
The bill was introduced yesterday, an l they were in com-
mittee, awl being a money bill no amendment could be
made. Last year the proposition of the Government was
not approved by the house, and yet there was nu opportu-
nity
of making any alteration iu it. There was a difficulty
in the way of the house representing its own wishes ; and
it
was only from the accidental circumstance of the
nted death of General Havelock that the house had
had time to propose a-provision for his widow and son.
If the bill had pass,_d last year this could not have occurred.
It wasquestiem dclietlar there siould not be the practice
t
first wish and thought of General Havelock, and must be
the first thought of every general on dangerous service,
that some provision should be secured to his family.
mbaakde
d
Mr. W. 'WILLIAMS said that there was not a person
in the house more ready than he to grant public money for
provisionistg Li isheee(l themselves in service. It was the
-
the widows of generals and officers
"o,ho
eminent services done to the country, and no services
could have been greater than those performed by the late
Gen. Havelock. He rose, not to oppose the motion, for he
thought that Lady Havelock was eminently entitled to a
pension, but to call attention to the greatly increased re-
ward as compared with that of last year. Then it was pro-
posed to give an annuity to Gen. Havelock for his life;
and it was the wish of the house that it should be extended
to his son for life; and there was no opposition to that. If
the proposition had been to grant Gen. Havelock 2,0001. a
year, ho (Ur. Williams) would have male no objection, for
he thought it was the highest policy to reward eminent
public services such as those of Gen. Havelock. But the
ground laid by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for grant-
ing 1,000/. a year to Major Havelock wholly failed. The
right honourable gentleman might have pointed out a
thousand officers as much entitled to a similar reward on
personal grounds as Major Havelock. What must be
the feelings of distinguished officers of higher
rank than
Major Havelock who had received no pecuniary reward,
and one or two of whom had received but a slender ac-
knowledg•uent of their services from her Majesty? In
particular he thought that Col. Grsathed was entitled to a
higher re waril than he hat received. The sight hon. gen-
tleman had spoken of the ciurap of Major Havelock.
Why, there was not a man in that army, officer or soldier,
who had not displayed as much courage as he. This was a
motion for an additional 1,0001. a-year beyond what was
originolly!propose t. (Divide.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to enter his strong protest
against the doctrine of the hon. member for Lembeth, and
on the part of his constituents he felt deeply grateful to
the Government fur leaving made this provision for Major
Havelock. The statement of the hon. member for Perth
that the provision Gen. Havelock had been able to make
for his family was so inadequate, was sufficient to justify
this vote to the mitol and feelings of every member of this
house. But he held that it welt the greatest wisdom in
ceses of the devotion of men's lives to the service of their
country like that of Gen Havelock, that their families
should be provided for after their death. He did not think
it desirable that our officers should be encumbered with
wealth, but it had been long felt that it was a wise princi-
ple that the country should provide for the families of those
who had done groat services and risked their lives for
their country, and so relieve the iniude of each men fr nn
their chief anxiety. If Gen. Havelock had been rroservel,
or could have known what his country was doing for his
family, such a course would have Leen more congenial to
his feelings than any personal reward.
The CHANCELLOR of the EX,JfIEQUER Fah' he
thought it right to remove a misapprehension under which
the noble inotnl.nr fur Deviz33 laboured, when Le thought
that the Government had acted pre.cii ly, and that the
house was uuw in committee ou a bill for granting an an-
nuity t.) Lady liovilick aid Major Havelock. rtfe truth
wos that the house •.vas in the hest stage of such a bill, viz.,
a resolution ou which a bill was to be founded. Tdereforo
if the hoe. member wished to make any retnafks on this
subject ho would have ample opportunity in the future
stalcs of the bid'. He' wished also to remove a strange this-
understanding, by the hon, member for Lambeth, of the
rewerks he had made. The hon. member understood that
he l.,id the ground of the resolution solely on the personal
merits of 'Major Havelock, and irrespixtive of the services
of his lamented father, when as ho thought tied, he had
distinctly stated that he believed that the house would
have grants 1 this annuity to the sou of General Havelock,
wholly irrespective of his persenel merits. The original
Pr)Ple-itiou was for au anuuity to General Havelock only ;
44,1 it was the.expressed wish of the house that it should
Le continued to his son ; that is, that it should be granted
for two li vee. The G.,vernment acceded to the wish of the
house, lent that was not the original proposition. Sine()
that understanding, had been come to, the lamented death
of Gone; al Havelock had become known, awl the position
of things had changed, and it was thought that the origi-
' " tt r'
C. len should not be
carried into effect ; and it be-
came his (ChancelloF of the Exchequer's) duty to submit to
the house a different resolution, caerying out the spirit of
the wishes of the house; and he bad grid that irx-espectir.)

facilities which had been afforded to Turkey ? Again, had I
not money been given to Sardinia for the payment of troops
to aid in the war against Russia ? Would it be more oh.
jectionable to lend money to India for an English object ?
When the English Three per Cents. were at. 95 and the
East India Company were borrowing money at 6 per cent.,
would it not confer a great advantage on India and give
a favourable introduction to the abolition of the double
government to allow India to enjoy fully her union with
this country ? But this was refused. It was said " You
shall be under the crown for the purposes cf power and
honour, but as to the question of crelit, you shall have
none of our credit." When the right hon. gentleman
proposed to give to the East India Company the power of
borrowing for two Jeers, and the probability was that
that company would not live for many weeks, the ab-
surdity of such a plan must strike every member of
the house. It seemed to him to be contrary to every prin-
ciple of constitutional manage to grant a. minister, who
was not known, the power of borrowing 14,000,000 i. to dis-
pose of existing obligations and debts, leaving the re-
mainder to be managed no one knew how. Ho was not
aware whether any opposition would be given to the
measure at its present stage,, but trusted some hon. mem-
ber of greater influence would express his opinion on the
subject. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
notwithstanding the high financial authority of the hon.
gentleman, he did not think the house would, upon a ma-
ture consideration of the question, come to the conclusion
that the bill proposed by his right hon. friend was not
founded on principles of correct legislation on the two
points on which the hon. gentleman had impugned it.
The hon. gentleman's first objection was that the
Government sought to obtain for the East India Company
the power of borrowing money, which in consequence
of expected legislation they might not be able
hereafter to exercise; and he then argued that the
exigencies of the Indian treasury ought to be satis-
fied not by loans borrowed on Indian credit, but by loans
granted on imperial credit. Now he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) ventured to maintain, with great confidence,
after a full consideration of the matter, that the bill was
founded on correct policy in both respects, although that
policy was directly contrary to that recommended by the
hon. gentleman. It was not disputed that a necessity existed
for the Government of India in this country to raise money
by loan for the payment of the expenses of their home
.treasury. If that point should be conceded, considerable
progress would be made in the solution of the question.
Now, what was the position of the East India Company
with respect to their borrowing powers. In India their
power of borrowing was unlimited, and it was not suggested
that the authority of parliament, was necessary to enable the
Governor-General in council to borrow. There was always
a loan open in the three presidencies of India, and the bor-
rowing power had 'lever been disputed, and was constantly
kept in a state of activity. With regard to this country,
the borrowing powers of the East India Company were
peculiar, owing to the manner in which their anomanius
authority had been created. Having been originally a
trading company, which accidentally acquired sovcreiguty
and governing power, their power to borrow was limited
by Parliament, as Parliament limited the borrowing
powers of any ordinary joint stock company. Owing to
these circumstances, it was necessary for Parliament to
give to the Government of India iu this country specific
authority to borrow money in this country. But iu con-
sequence of their having become a political body after they
had originally exercised merely mercantile functions,
they had not the same advantage in the money mar-
ket in this country which was possessed by the
local Government of any of our other depend-
encies or colonies. If, for example, the Government
of Canada, or the Government of Demerara wished
to effect a loan in this country--if their credit enabled
them to borrow—there was nothing in the statute law to
prevent their exercising that power to any extent to which
they might be able to induce landowners to come forward.
But the East India Company was peculiarly situated, and it
was necessary for them to apply to Parliament to remove
that restriction which the accident of being a trading cons
pany had embarrassed it with. What was now required was
thatthe government of India in this country —the Board of
Directors subject to the control of theßoard of Commission ors
for India—should have the power to a certain extent to
borrow money in this country, in order to defray the ex-
penses of their home treasury for a limited time. If they
exercised that power they would exercise it subject to all the
laws now in existence. If the power was clear, the responsi-
bility would continue so long as the existing state of things
remained unaltered. If it should please Parliament on the
proposition of the Government to make any alteration in the
constitution of the home government of India, undoubtedly
it would take care to provide for the transfer of those
powers—to see that the borrowing powers created by the
bill should be exercised under proper responsibility—add
that the money obtained by the exercise of such borrowing
powers should be used, subject to the laws which regulate
the expenditure of the government of India. No dangerous
interval would occur, and there would be a clear power
and complete responsibility, both during the currency of
this act, and under any amended statute which parliament
might think fit to pass. Therefore there was not the
smallest weight in the objections to the principle on which
the bill was founded. The necessity existed for authorising
the existing home government of India to raise money for
the wants of the 'home treasury. The necessity existing,
the constitution of the home government continued, the
present bill was adapted to that constitution. The power
of raising and using the money would be exercised under
the existing law. If parliament should think fit to alter the
present constitution, then the power of borrowing must be
dealt with in the same manner as other powers inherent in
the East India Company, and no peculiar difficulty would
arise with respect to the present bill which would not arise
with respect to their other powers. They now possessed a
small unexhausted power of borrowing on India Bonds, to
which the objections of the hon, gentleman would apply as
much as to the present bill. The hon. gentleman proposed
that loans for the service of India should not be raised me
the credit of the revenue of India, but by the Imperial Ex-
chequer; and argued that the government were bound to
accede to his principle, because they wore about to propose
the abolition of the political powers of the company in this
country. But he could not see the smallest connexion be-
tween the prouises and the conclusion of the hon. gentleman.
It was only necessary to look to other dependencies and
colonies of the kingdom to see manifold examples of govern-
ments, in which there was a direct relation between the
Crown and the dependency, and in which, nevertheless,
the exchquers were just as distinct as the imperial exche-
quer and the Indian exchequer, and where the loan was
effected by the colonial credit, unless the imperial credit
wag given by the specific legislation of Parliament. The
hon. gentleman had referred to the case of the Canadian
loan, and that of the Demerara loan,, as examples which
ought to be followed with regard to India. Now, the
Canadian loan was effected under peculiar circumstances,
with a view to the settlement of differences pending with
the colony, and rested simply on the policy of en impe-
rial guarantee for a colonial loan. In the case of Deme-
rara, and other loans effected by the West India islands,
they were in some degree connected with the emancipa-
tion of the slaves, and the distressed financial condition of
those colonies, and surely they afforded no example for the
extension -of an imperial guarantee to an exchequer so
generally wealthy as that of India. During the last session
an imperial guarantee was given to New Zealand, but the
reason was, that it was a young and struggling community
—and there were peculiar relations with the Now Zealand
Company which rendered' it expedient that the assistance
of the British treasury should be given to that community.
These reasons, however, did not apply to our East India
dominions, which hal never yet been a burden upon the
British exchequer. On the contrary, in the early history
of our relations with India, an attempt was made to ex-
tract from India a contribution to the English exchequer.
That tribute, as irwas called, was paid for a series of years
and to a groat extent a delusion prevailed that England
had, to no inconsiderable degreeebeen omiched by the con-
tributions of India, and that so far from the imperial ex-
chequer being called upon to guarantee Indian loans and
becoming itself tributery, the common belief of foreigners
and of many persons in this country was, that England had
derived from India some assistance to its exchequer.
Without wiehing to revive long settled disputes as to the
tribute of India in aid of the expenses of this country—.
without thinking that it would ever be possible, or if pos.
sible that it would be just or expedient, to call upon the
finances of India to do mnro than discharge the wants of
the Indian Government. Ho could not for a moment ad-
mit the principle that except for some extraordinary pee.
pose—except on account of the failure both of Indian re-
venue and Indian credit—it would be expedient or just to
call in aid of the finances of India the credit of the Impe-
rial Legislature. Differing entirely with the hon. gentle-
man on the two important points which he hal raised, he
justified the bill on principles of sound policy, and as de-
serving of the support of the house. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI did not think his hon. friend the mem-
ber for Huntingdon (Hr. Baring) ought to flatter himself
with the notion that her Majesty's Ministers would with-
draw their intended measure to change the govern-
ment of India on account of the existence of a great
emergency, because it was in the midst of a great
emergency, after due and deep consideration, that her
Majesty's Ministers arrived at the conclusion that
such a policy ought to be recommended to Parliament;
and, considering the inlimatioa oontainel in the speech
from the throne- -considering the correspondence which
hail taken place between the highest authorities connected
with the Government of India and the First Minister of
the Crown—considering that a member in another place
hail last night signified the intention of the Government to
bring forward a measure to change the powers of the East
India Government in this country, he thought his hon.
friend would, upon reflection, not flatter himself that his
appeal would be successful. (Hear ) It appeared to him
that her Mtij ity'a Ministers were not acting with that
ingenuousness and candour which the house had a right
to expect. After the notification from the Crown and the
correspondence which had passed between the First Minis-
ter and the directors, it was rather extraordinary that the
I [ouso of Commons had received no official intimation on
the subject, when the interposition of that house was ne-
cessary to enable the East India Company to carry on the
government of that vast country. He did not think the
right hon. gentleman had mot the practical difficulty in
the case. The question really, was, what were the roost
advantageous terms on which the Home Government of
India could raise the money ? The house had been told
that, whatever charges might take place; it was the doter
min'etion of the Government thi.t any loan raised in this
country by the Home Government of India should ho a
charge upon the revenue of India only. He would not at
present enter into the policy and propriety of that de:ec-
ruination ; but if the loan was to bo chargeable only on the
revenue of India, it became a question of calculation with
those who bad the money to lend whether the iseeceeity
would be beat under the Government now in existence in
India, and which administered India, or uuderthe Govern-
ment projected by her Majesty's Ministers. That appeared
to be a distinction of the utmost importance, which the
house was bound to consider, and which involved the
whole question of the policy or propriety of the chan're of
Government. (Hear, hear.) It was a question of wive
consideration whether the house should or could entertain
a measure of this kind--a measure which empowered the
Home Government of India to raise, not for immediate
or pressing .purposes, but for future purposes, a loan
of such a large amount. The fine consideration of those
who had money to lend must be the security on which the
money was to be lent. If the security was only to be the
revenue of India, the question would bo the parties by
whom the government was to be adwinietered and the
means by which tho revenue was to be raised, because that
might make a difference between 3 anti 6 per cent or e. ,
tween 6 and 9 per cent.h
Some parsons might cor si ter that
if the administration of India was placid un !or the crown,
the security offered by the Indian revenue would he
finitely improved. But these might be an influential bo!lyn,
an I amongst them probably many who wou'd be willieg to
advance the money, who would look with the
greatest
alarm and distrust on the projected alteration, as likely to
shake the foundations of the Indian revenue and ff 'iYh3
resources and prosperity of the country. e e
Under thesee
tir-
cu m -tepees, although ho could not go so far as to say the
house ought to refuse to sanction the introduction of the
bill, becaase that would bo au act of Oiecourt.sy towards ,
the government to which he did not wish let hea party, he
thought the house ought tq Day, in permitting its ietrodunt ►
tie% we age not illedged to support it in its Mure

His impression was that when the bill was well weighed
by the house and the country, it would be found repete
with grave objections and deserving of the most serious
and earnest consideration. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CARDWELL thought the demand that the Esst
India Company should borrow money was a reasonable ono
--(hear, hear) but it became an early question what was
to be the future position of the Cot solidated Fund in con-
nection with this loan. Money borrowed by the East In-
dia Company would be twice the charge of money borrowed
by the Crown. He had no desire to precipitate the dis-
cussion on the forthcoming measure with regard to India,
but it was of first moment to consider on what basis the
future revenue of India was to rest. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said there could be no doubt that the
East India Company required money at this moment, but
the question remained, whether the means of borrowing
proposed was the best that could be devised. (Hear, hear.)
He thought the house had been left somewhat in the dark
on the subject •of the revenues of India. In all former
cases, where so large a loan as ten millions had been bor-
rowed, Parliament had been informed as to the means of
repayment, and the particular security to be forthcoming.
The Government had omitted all information in this re'
Ted. If the money was to be raised entirely on the
security of the Indian revenue, the power of !eliding money
in India at 6 per ce-nt. would to some extent influence the
advance of money at lower rates in this country. (Hear.)
Mr. MANGLES said that although the East India Com-
pany had not asked the Government to bring in a bill for
the aboliticn of the company's power—(a laugb)—they cer-
tainly had requested the introduction of the present mea'
sure. Money was required by the company in consequence
of the enormous outgoings in connection with the recent
' mutiny, both with regard to the supply of money for
troops and the transport of stores. The Home Government
of India required assistance, and it was asked in order that
the machine should not come to a stop. The right hon.
member for Buckinghamshire said that the money was not
immediately required ; but the fact was that, at this nie:
ment, the company owod the Government for the payment
of troops and for stores not less than 3,000,0001. ; and of
the end of 1858-9 that sure would amount to 7,000,0001.
With regard to the terms of borrowing, he believed that
6 per cent. in Calcutta was equivalent to 3 per cent. in
this country. The company's Four per Cent. Bonds were
at present at a premium of 28s. per cent., and this showed
that the company was not at so low an ebb as some KIP'
posed. (Hear.) It had been said that the East Indio
Company, like certain colonies in former times, could bar'
row in the market, and lawyers were of opinion that on
extension of the company's powers could he effected for
that purpose; but whatever might be the opinion on thet
bead, he hoped that in the meantime the machinery of the
Home Government of India might not be allowed to stand
still for the want of funds for carrying on the war. (Hear.)
Sir F. BARING had no wish to impede the East Inge
Company in procuring money (hear, hear) ;—but thought,
the loan 'should be confined to the year. (Hear, bear./
Why should the company now have advanced to it three
millions more than it wanted, when it was well known that
before the expiration of six mouths that company itself
would have become a matter of history. (A laugh.) 110
should also have liked to have had a.littla ibformation as
to the dispos tl of the money. The only fact known was,
that as far as finalise was concerned, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would not be responsible. It we all very well
for the right hon. gentleman to say this, but the Engli6ll
public, in the contingency of failure on the part of the
Indian finances to repay the loan, would feel bound in
honour to repay it. (Hear, hear.) It, therefore, became
the duty and the interest of the Government to barrow
money on the most eligible terms. (Hear, hear.) It
necessary preliminary to the loan was explanation as to the
actual sum required. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel SYKES did not mean to anticipate discussion
on the forthcoming bill for setting aside the company, but
desired to eepress his entire concurrence in the measure*
adopted to preserve its powers. Pending legislation,- money
was ereeetly required. But this was his firm conviction.
that if bill for abolishing the company were carried
into effect, the securities on which the money was advanced
would not be worth a rush. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY considered the moment chose>a
by the Government for destroying the powers of the Eli'
India Company most inopportune. It was most important;
also, that before granting the proposed loan the financial
situation of India should be clearly laid before Parliarnen"
He very much doubted whether the holders of East Indio
Stock were not prejudiced by the present measure.
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR said that a disposition had
been shown to limit the amount of this loan. Such at
was the desire of the Government, and the sum named by
them—namely, 10,000,0001.—was the limit assigned. The
loan, he contended, had been advantageously put outs
Mr. V. SMITH, in reply, thanked the house for the
tone and tamper in which they had received the measure'
,
There was no intention to charge the revenues of t,hl:
country with liability for any portion of the loan. 'l?'
hoped that, considering the position of. the East Ina!!
Company, no tmeeoessary delay would take place befell'
the second reading of the bill. Since the last Indian had-
get, the Indian revenues had certainly not improved, frel
causes well known to the house. The money to be raise
would be confined exclusively to home expenditure.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.

EAST INDIA CADETSHIPS.
of
Colonel SYKE3 moved for a return of the lumber
„„
cadetships and different classes of individuals upon 141%;
sons all cadetships for India have been conferred by 'ho
directors of the East India Company and President of tl,
Board of Control, in the several years from 1840 to 181'
both inclusive. He believed there would be no obj€4l'„,,
to the return, similar ones having been turnisned. :
produced he felt satisfied it would be seen that in not •
sing'. ease hid promotion been the result of patronage
Mr. Y. SMITH said that it would be difficult to Wed.
Me return, which, in fact, was hardly intelligible. 'bo
could not conceive the reason why the return was t°,st
limited to the period between 1840 and 1847, except
""
in the former year the hon. and gallant colonel becatee
director of the company.
Colonel SYKES said he could not consent to the alb'
b.
rations proposed in the form of the return by the right
hon. the President of the Board of Control: " The motion, w as originally proposed, was the agreed t°
without a division.

INDIAN PETITIONS. et
Sir H. VERNEY moved for oopies of all pipers 0
already presented to the house connected with the varto.n..
annexations of territory in India, including.minutes
by dividual directors, since the annexation of Sattarah 70;
counts of all sums paid to Hindoo or Mahometan shoi' of
or in any way in honour or support of the religion vrdio,
religious institutions of the native inhabitants of the
which ware collected or disbursed by the agency 0.,567;
East India Company's servants daring the year _ re.
cop:es of the peti ti on of th e int %bit ants of Calcutta for tn7oo
cal of the Governor-General, together with any observithoe
which be may have made thereon ; and, if any &OP"; to
from the Court of Directors of the East India CorolAlli of
the Government of India, respecting the appointro/of
commissioners to inquire into the cause of the n3utpir
mutiny iu that country, and the best means of re-org`
ing the Bengal army.
COl.
Mr. V. SMITH explained that thee petition frothA tor cutta referred to in the motion, was not acoompan''—fral
so full an explanation by the Governor-General alis to
usually the case in despatches transmitted from In''"
the Gcvointnent at home.
-With this explanation the motion Was agreed to. r
On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, new writ vi,t,oor
dored'for the southern division of tlw county of Nortrioi
ton, for the election of a member in the room 0'
—tle
Althorpo, who since' his election had been called t°
House of Peers.
THE NEW INDIA BILL.
Lord PALMERSTON
gave notice that on Fricial nest
he would move for leave
to bring in a bill for the b°
regulation of the Governmen of India. 406
The house then adjourned tat a few Ininatea after ')
o'clock.

'..,!_,_.

Country Ill9;rkets.

LIVERPOOL. FEB. 5.
The trade remains languid and unsatiicaotorY, heAndy
poor attendance with a small business in wheat at:3 $b1
the full rates of Tuesday. Flour quite neglected, 37) turd
prices were mutely nominal. Oats dull, and meal tl'a got
cheaper. Indian corn mot a small demand at 335 "
ther more freely
mixed American, and 33s for Black Sea. White W"-
„,,
°tiered at 36s per qr. •

WAKEFIELD—FEL 5. • beat
..h
The arrivals of grain this week were large, an—
or.' sold 2s per qr lower, buyers supplying themselves t r 10:
small quantities at the decline. Inferior kinds almilistil'
saleable. Barley is cheaper, and secondary saes ae, ,
to sell. Beans firm. but eats and shelling rather o°l
Averages for the week :
Wheal-, 47s bid Oats, 23s 21(1 I Peas, 426 .o,j,
I
Barley, 36s 6,d Beans, 41s Old I Rye, --43

EXETER—FEL 5, tlti ;
i 4:41 i
COUN.—Wheat, Gs 3d to tss 6d ; barley, 4s, t
a o°'
grinding do., OF Od. to Os Od. Oats, 'lig td to '9
Beans, Os 01 to 0 Od. Peas, 00s Od to 00s Od. oOs
FLoun.—Fine, 358 Od to 378 Od i aseondw, —..1 °3 t
Od per sack.
130 i
CATTLE.—There was a large supply of bullocks. 0. pot
beef, from Os 01 to its Od per score ; inforior, 7s to io I,
err 01
-
score; fat calves, Od to 6.1 per lb ,• barrennera •Oa Ls'
~..tat
Od. per score ; cows and calveft, 12/. to 201. Os ; P:, 01111
calves, 0.1 to 7d per lb., rearing calves —s to awes. )
sheep, owes and lambs, 21. .to 3/. 5s per couple;O
to 61d; wetbors, 7d --d; lambs, 71d to 0 per lb. ...4
large size, —s to --s ; second size, —s to —s; sli A
et PP
to —s ; suckors, —s to —s. Rough fat, 44d pet
Pork carcases from 7s Od to 8s Od per score.
_s

BIRTHS.
1-, of
ASTON— )11 the 3d inst., at 41, Doughty-street, the W 1
James J. Aston, Eiq.. barrister-at-law, of a son. _ 10.
DE PASS—On the 4th inst at 135, Westbourne-terraoo,
David DS Pass, of a son.. lie
ROWELL—Oa the 4th inst. at 6, Eatonplace west, the /1
of I'. J. Howell, Esq., 9fa daughter. 0014).
MooN—On the 4th inst., Mrs. Robert Moon, of 45 '
land-square, Hyde-park, of a son.

MARRIAGES. , chart
GRANT—CHADWICK —On the 2d ,at the PaLi?"hised,,,%;
Prestwich, Capt. John Grant, late. 42d Royal riowtb-
eldest son of James Murray Grant, Esq., of Gita°slti4r-
Inverness-shire, to Anne, second daughter-rasq.,4,.
same time and place, Sainsbury Gillies Payn°9 PThie
ristor-at-law, only son of Sir Char!es Gass P3l-,;:ie,„"dn
of Blunharn House, 130.1fordshire, to Catherine 'of 'iv'
youngest daughter—of Robert Chadwick, Esq''
Bank, Prestwich, ne.ir Manchester. JO4).
WALKER —BAss—Ou the 3(1 hist ,at Bucicland, 'JOU" os
Walker, Esq., of Dover, and Of the Woodlanasta_
Emit, to Ann, daughter of the late Tkonia 133'"
Buckland-place, near Dover:

or
t soo.ta
Barrox—On the ra Crunstoue Arthur, iernt 0;
Mr. Thomas Barton, of the firm, of Abbotb, °
Co.

DEATHS.

Iwo'

BUMER—On the Ed inst., at Old Kent-road, 14r*
But'er, aged 95.
FLA UMW —At Cheltenham, Hrs. Flaurey, aged 93. a FOP
FIDDES —Oll the 4th inst., at Blackheath James ..i`..i..-.°P
aged 74.
' 1t01,9'
Klxo—On the 4th inst., Thomas Bennett sing, °f 412;. 0411$1*
road, Canonbury, Islington, late of 9, Gray 'B".--- tOa
Holborn, aged 70. Quee°r4
KINGIRLEY —On the sth inst., at I Devonshire-terrace', $.lO
road, Peckham, the wife of Lieutenaut-Colone`
Kingsley.
------4.,4
,-----------yi, 0 v—,,/ °
LONDON: Printed and Published by 110.1113"ndieep
_.,'"IP;
of Nct. 112, Strand, Printer, at 171.' Stns --, OP' -
112, Strand, in the Preeinot of the Savoy. 131 1"-
c-..0.f Middlesex, Saturday, February 6. 18589