The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-31 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 31, 1860.

THE CHURCH-RATE ABOLITION BILL.-
At a meeting of the executive committee of the Society
for the Liberation of Religion from State Patronage and con-
trol, held March 30, it was resolved :-
1. "That this committee earnestly thanks the supporters of
the Church-rates Abolition Bill for the promptitude and en-
thusiasm of their response to the appeal made to them after
the vocond reading of the bill to strengthen the hands of Sir
aohn Trelawny by everywhere petitioning in its favour."
2. "That the committee regards the presentation of up-
wards of 5,000 petitions, and the expressed wishes of more
than HALF A MILLION OF PETITIoNERS, within the
brief period of six weeks, as an emphatic denial of the truth
of recent assertions that but a small section of the community
desire the extinction of the tax."

3. `That nevertheless the committee urges the necessity
for strenuous exertion to secure the third reading of the bill,
by a decisive majority, as well as its early adoption by the
Peers."

WILLIAM EDWARDS, Chairman,
J. CARVELL WILLIAMS, Secretary.
2, Serjeant's-inn, Fleet-street.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.)

Lord REDESDALE (in the absence of the Lord Chancellor)
took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock.

Petitions against the abolition of church rates were pre-
Fented by Viscount Dungannon, Lord Colville of Cuhogs,
and Lord Southampton; and for their abolition by Lord
Teynham.

eaforce the performance of the, treaty of Tien-tsin and to
obtain an apology from the Emperor of China for the occur.
rences which had taken place at the mouths of the Peiho
River. There was not a particle of evidence to show that
without'any expedition at all there would be any obstaCle
to the treaty in question, and he must add that, if an apology
was all that was wanted, they would have to p ty very dearly
for it—for an apology froo a semi•barbarous sovereign they
would have to pay five or six millions of money. Hit were'
proposed to obtain from the Chinese by force concessions
which they would not yield except to force, then it appeared
to him that those concessions would be of very little value ;
[ for what guarantee had they that as soon as the force should
be withdrawn the concessions would not also cease to
operate ? It should not be fergotten that with a large land
force, such as they proposed to send, the difficulties of trans-
port were very great; then there were the dangers of cli-
mate, the difficultias of supplier, and the uncertainty which
must exist as to What measures it would be proper to adopt ;
in short, it appeared to him to be an act of great rashness to
send under such circumstances so large a land force to
China. Well, but let them suppose these operations were
as successful as they could desire, what would be the
result ? What interest had they in China beyond the
[ extension of their trade ? Were they to burn the
Chinese towns, to slaughter the people, to devastate the
country and bring upon it all the inevitable calamities
of war? Every blow we Struck at China more or less
*coiled upon ourselves ; end supposing the success
of our army so great that it, would overthrow the existing
Government, when then we should be in a worse position
than ever. The results would be to China most disastrous,
to ourselves anything but beneficial. He assured their
lordships, from the best information he could gather, that
such a shock as it was proposed to give to the Chinese Go-
vernment was not at all unlikely to overturn it, and that
what it might be very easy to overthrow it might be very
difficult to provide a substitute for. How were peace and
order to be preserved in thaffinmensc empire if the machi-
nery by which it had hitherto been regulated were broken
up ? We had had some enerience 9f former doings at
Canton, where our proceedings had brought upon that por-
tion of the Chicesb 'empire a state of anarchy. Hitherto
our trade with China had been most flourishing and pros-
perous, and one of file main causes of Peet was that the
Chinese GovernMent had maintained 'order and security,
so that the people wOre able to carry on the operations of
agriculture and to produce, their tea and sugar and those
other articles which formed her staples of commerce. But
should there ensue a 'state of anarchy, not only would the
best trade between China anct:Eirgland be hazarded, but
also that very important trade between China and India.
He believed that in such an event not less than between
£7,000,000 and £8,000,000 of revenue would be sacrificed',
He feared there was too much reason for believing that the
rebellion in the Chinese empire was the consequence of
our war with China in 1840. He had once an interesting
conversation with Dr. Wilson, who, told him that it was
to the war, and especially to the effect of the large peen;
niary indemnity which England ,enforced, that the re-
bellion was owing—that by it her finances and her Go-
vernment were crippled and paralysed, her great officers
were left unpaid, and in every instance there was
greater suffering than there had ever been before; that
by the war the maintenance of order and security
was destroyed; and Dr. Wilson described in most moving
terms the ruin and misery which arose frem that insecurity
and from the disorganisation of the Government. (Hear,
hear.) In consequence of that rebellion many of the pro
ductions of China had fallen off, and with it, of course,
trade also. He did not ask their lordships to pronounce
any judgment upon the line of policy which the Govern-
ment had pursued, nor on the justice of the quarrel they
had taken up. In moving for those returns he had ab-
stained from going into details. In the position in which
he stood—connected with no party in that house, having
no right to look for any support—he certainly felt that ho
could not properly ask their lordships to pronounce any
judgment upon so great a question, and therefore it was
that he avoided entering more fully upon thin wide field ;
he had only touched 'the mere surface in order to show their
lordships that there were those large questions Which ought
to be considered, and that it was the duty of Goveminent to
invite to their consideration the attention and tl,e judg-
ment of Parliament. (Hoar.) With these observations the
noble earl concluded by moving for the returns.
The Dukeof SOMERSET—The noble earl, in the returns
which he moved for, had asked for the probable cest of the
Chinese expedition, and yet had himself presumed that he
would be a bold man who would speculate upon its cost.
(Hear.) It apr eared' to him that the noble earl had asked
for that which he admitted neither Parliament nor the Go-
vernment could supply. He wished to call their lordships'
attention to the position in which they stood. As regarded
the action which took place at the mouth of the Peiho river
last year, those occurrenceo had taken place before he Game
into office, and therefore he (the Duke of Somerset) con-
sidered himself no more responsible for them than was
the noble lord. To pretend any responsibility for such
transactions would be going quite beyond all parliamentary
precedent. But it ought not to be forgotten that when the
news of those occurrences reached England the public mind
was thrown into a state of very great alarm, for it was
feared from the report that neither British life nor property
was safe at Amoy, or Shanghae, or Canton. Under such
circumstances he asked was it not the duty of the Admiralty
to take immediate steps for the sending out a force sufficient
to protect the lives and properties of British subjects ? The
noble earl indeed said that parliament ought to have been
summoned, but that was not the opinion of the Earl of
Derby, and it was plain that no advantage would result
from the summoning of parliament, but that on the con-
trary it would greatly 'increase the alarm which already
prevailed. What the people of England required was that
immediate steps should be taken to redress the wrong, and
to retaliate for the outrages which the Chinese had com-
mitted. Parliament was perfectly aware of the course
which the Government had taken ; the papers and instruc-
tions to Mr. Bruce had been laid upon the table, and they
showed sufficiently the mild and moderate course which had
been adopted by the Government. He could not understand
what course the noble earl would have desired. He could
see no other course open to the GoVernment to pursue than
the ono they had adopted in this case. He did not agrie
in opinion with the noble earl that no outrages had been
committed by the Chinese. He thought, on the contrary,
there was throughout duplicity and deception on their part,
and no one who read the papers could help seeing that the
Chinese did try toavoid seeing our ambassador. They tried
in every way to put him off from coming to Pekin. They
went on leading him to believe that !.'e could come, and
when he came to the Peiho river he found it barricaded,
and they led him to believe that these barricades would bo
removed and he should pass on to Pekin. If that was walla
case of duplicity :and evasion he did not know what was.
(Hear.) But the noble earl went back and told them that

this Chinese expedition was to be the commencement of a
new policy. Sorely ho must remember that it was not a
. _

twelvemonth ago that they had a treaty entered into by his
noble friend (Lord Elgin), that that treaty was to have been
ratified at Pekin ; but if the Chinese thought fit not to ful-
fil their promise, but to enter into an open war upon the
English force, surely that was not a new policy, but return-
ing to a state of things which existed before the treaty was
agreed to. With regard to our relations with China in past
Years, any one who looked back to 1839 must see they were
very unsatisfactory, and that every two or three years there
was some outrage or complaint, and in the course of the►
time we had had several wars with China. The noble earl
said these wars caused a very great increase in the estimates,
and that this course of policy ought to be checked; but if
he looked back to the period since 1810 he would find that,
as far at least as the navy was concerned, we had four or
five times a larger force in China than we had now. In 1813
we had more inn in China than we had now, and from 1840
to 1860 our relations with China were in an unsatisfactory
condition. The reason, he believed, was this, that we were
never able directly to communicate with the Chinese govern-
ment, but with viceroys, who took different ♦iews one from
another,,but who, by putting humiliations on those whom
they called barbarians, threw every difficulty in their way.
It was true the imperial government sometimes recalled these
viceroys, and either took off their heads or advised them to
commit suicide. That was one way they had of getting rid
of an obnoxious minister In that country. (A laugh.)
What they (the Government) wanted was to put things on
a satisfactory footing by this expedition; itthat were don%
it would be the most successful expedition that ever was
sent to China, and he should not care what it might
cost for the moment. We did not know what

other course the government could have pursued under
the circumstances. Ho :"confessed that in his posi-
tion at the Admiralty, he could not censure Admiral Hope
for what he had done ; for he showed the gallantry and
courage of a British seaman. Errors of judgment might
have been committed, yet what position should they have
been in if they had not sent out this expedition to demand
redre.ss for the outrage that had been offered ? The noble
earl had stated that this policy would have the effect of de-
stroying their trade. It would be most unfortunate if the
result should be injurious to our trade, but fortunately the
people of Canton and Shanghae manage their affairs diffe-
rently. Everybody who looked back for the last 20 years
would find that the result was that our trade had kone on
increasing more and more. The Chinese were a peculiar
people ; they wculd fight with you in one part of the coun-
try and tree with you in another. The value of British
produce eiTorted to China from 1834 to 1842 was £926,000,
from 1813 to 1850 it was £1,700,000, and from 1851 to 1859
it was L 2,295,000. Now during all that period they bad
nearly constant wars in China, and yet their trade multi-
plied much more rapidly than at any other time. Now, as
regarded the amount of the forces in their expedition, he
could not go into details as to the cost, because it was clear
that must depend upon what took place. If they agreed
to the treaty and the demands which the Government made,

which were very moderate, namely, that they should
have such relations with On court of China as would
prevent those complications which were constantly tak-
ing place, then he did not think the cost would' exceed the
estimate. The additional force now required would be
about 5,000 men. The cost of transports would be
about X 200,080 ; that sum, he believed, would be suffi-
cient for the following year, as he anticipated the trans-
ports would be available to bring the troops home at the
termination of hostilities. One of the heaviest items
would be the supply of coal for the expedition, which
he set down at £150,000. These were the chief items ;
but the whole of the navy estimates for this expedition for
next year would be about £680,000. He believed that would
be very near the amount, but he would not pledge himself
to it. With regard to Canton, he hoped the Government
would soon be able to withdraw their troops from it, and at
present the best feeling existed between the people of that
place and the English. He did not want to go further into
the subject, but he trusted the noble earl would not insist
upon having those returns for which he had moved, which
might be only a conjectural estimate, and would be much
more difficult to make out accurately than if the force had
been sent direct from this country. (Hear.)

The Earl of MALMESBURY said he should not enter at
any length into this question, but he thought it was due to
the Government to which he had the honour to hare be-
longed to make some observations in reply to what had
fallen from the noble duke. He was particularly anxious
not to make any observations as to the conduct of Mr. Bruce,
who was in one of the most difficult positions that ever a
public servant was placed in ; but he should not like it to be
thought that by silence he should give his entire approbae
tion to what took place upon that occasion, and after what
the noble duke had said he felt bound to express his opinion
respecting what had passed. He believed Mr. Bruce fol
lowed his instrtiotione most literally in many respects, but
he (the Earl of Malmesbury) did not expect, when these
instructions were sent out, that hostilities would take place;
they were founded on the calculation that rnattere would go
peaceablyon, and no force Would be required. Many of
their lordships were acquainted with diploratititecorrespond-
enc.e, and how, difficult it was in every case to convey one's
meaning ; and although he did not blame Mr.• Bruce or
making his demand on the Chinek authorities, yet he
thought he was guilty of too much precipitation. The ori-
ginal commissioner entered into a correspondence with him
when he insisted on the treaty being carried out, and on the
12th of June a courier started for Pekin with Mr. Bruce's
propositions. Now, that courier could not have arrived at
Pekin until the 22d of June, and certainly at least three
days after his arrival would be required for consideration.
But the proceedings on the Peiho commenced on the 251 h,
and on.the 24th the action took place of which they com-
plained. Under these circumstances, he thought Mr. Bruce
acted with too much precipitancy in the matter. He thought
Mr. Bruce ought to have waited till he got an answer from
the Chinese Government. (Hear.) With respect to their
trade not having suffered in China, he could hardly agree
with the noble duke, or think that his argument was quite
logical, except on the post hoe propter hoe principle. But
under all the eircurnetances he could not find fault with the
Government for this expedition. They were apt to call the
Chinese nation barbarians and the Chinese Government a
barbarian Government. That he believed to be a. great
mistake. (Hear.) The Chinese Government were any-
thing but barbarians ; on the contrary, they everevery clever
people, and ought not to be spoken of or treated as barba-
rian. (Hoar, hear.) Having sent an ambassador to China
they ought to treat the Emperor of that country, and ob-
serve towards him the same cfremonics with regard to war
and preteens towards the Emperor of the French or any
other European sovereign. He therefore thought -there
ought to be a legitimate declaration of hostilities before they
commenced war. By not doing so, they were exposing any
prisoners of war to great cruelties, and might get into dif-
ficulties about blockades. He agreed with the noble duke
that they could not estimate the expenses, and that all they
could do was to ask for money on account.
The Earl of ELGIN said that in rising to address their
lordships on this subject, he did not intend by any prema-
ture expression of opinion to fetter that discretion which it
was absolutely necessary he should possess, if he was to
achieve any success by his mission to China, but connected
as he was with the recent proceedings in China he might be
chargeable with want of respect to the house if he were al-
together to remain silent on that occasion. Now, in the
first place, he must remind the noble earl that if Mr. Bruce
had extended his delay beyond the time when he attempted
to move up the river the period would have passed by
within which the treaty was to be ratified. It was perfectly
true that if the Chinese had acted throughout with good
faith be might have consented to the delay, but that was not
the state-of things whittle existed. Whenhe made the treaty
of Tien-tsin, finding how unwilling the Government of
China was to have-a residenr Minister at Pekin, he, al-
though firmly of opinion that unless in some shapeor other
they had direct diplomatic relations with the Court of Pekin
they never would have permanent peace with that country,
stated to the Chinese commissioners—and in that he be-
lieved he had the approval of the noble lord opposite—that
if they received with all due honour and respect her Ma-
jesty's representative, and if they carried out with perfect
fidelity every other clause of the treaty, he should submit
to her Majesty, and to the Government, that it would be
desirable her Majesty should exercise the option which the
treaty gave her of not having a permanent Minister at the
capital, but of sending one from time to time as circum-
stances might make it necessary. The Chinese therefore
knew that Mr. Bruce was not only coming out, but that
strongest possible inducement was h eld out to them to receive
him with respect. If in the face of the bad faith indicated by
the Chinese, and after he had been told that there was no
difficulty in removing the obstacles on the river, Mr. Bruce
had allowed the period within which the treaty was to be
ratified to elapse ho would have incurred a heavy reeponsie
bility. (Hear.) He would gointo the questions raised by the
noble earl (Grey); but he sincerely heped—nay, he had a
confident expectation— that the result would prove that the
noble earl had taken a most exaggerated view of the liabili-
ties which this unfortunate Chinese war would entail upon
the country. That eves a speculative point, however. But
there was a more practical question of the most important
character behind that. It was this—u hat were the measures
by which they could best bring this unfortunate state of
things to a close, and establish such peaceful relations with
China as would relieve them from the heavy expenditure
which was required for the protection of their trade with
that country ? That was the practical question to which the
noble earl never alluded, and which occupied the attention
of practical men in China, whether they were merchants
engaged in trade, or philanthropists, or statesmen. It had
occurred to her Majesty's Government that his return to the
field of action at the present time; in conjunction with Baron
Gros—of whose able and cordial co. operation in negotiating
the treaty of Tien -tsin he could not speak too highly—
might give the Chinese Emperor an opportunity of propos-
ing terms of accommodation, and of intimating that it was
really his intention to carry out faithfully and honourably
the stipulations of the treaty of Tien-tsin. When he was
asked if he would proceed to China, he gave the only an-
swer that a servant of the public could .give. He was not
insensible to the honour of a scat in her Majesty's councils,
or of the advantages he must forego in proceeding upon this
expedition, but ho felt it would not be right that any objec-
tions of that description should prevent him frrn doing
what it appeared to him his public duty required. (Heft*
At he same time he felt bound to say that he would not
have undertaken that mission if he felt it implied on the part
of the Government any slight or reflection on his relative
who represented her Majesty in China at present. (Hear.)
He had been assured by her Majesty's Government that was
not the case. lie was assured that they felt no want of con-
fidence in his relative, and that the reason for sending him
was that it was supposed he might have some advantage in
dealing with this question, arising firstly from the circum-
stance to which ho had alre edy alluded ; and, secondly, be-
cause he had necessarily better means than his relative could
have of knowing what were the sentiments of the Govern-
ment, and he might also say, afterhis recent visit to Paris, of
knowing what wore the sentiments of the French Govern-
ment. His object in going out on this mission should be to
defeat the calculations of his noble friend as to the cost and
evils that would attend this war. They could not return
to the old state of things when they had but ono port of
China with which they could trade, and therefore they
r should endeavour to put their new relations with China on
the best and safest footing. He was afraid it was utterly
impossible to solve many of the difficulties that occurred
between this country and China except by war or acts of
war. He was prepared to prove that not a year elapsed since
the ratification of the treaty of Nankin, in which acts of
war had not been committed, and in which even the indivi-
dual consuls at the ports had not taken it upOn themselves
to authorise acts of war. It was all very well to say that
they wanted nothing in China but to trade. But unless
therewas security for the property of their merchants, there
could be no trade. (Hear.) Summary acts of war, however
unjustifiable from the point of view of international law,
settled in the lapse of a week what it would have taken six
or seven months to obtain if appeals were to be made from
viceroy to viceroy till the case was laid before the authori-
ties at Pekin. Even that excellent and benevolent gentle-
man, Mr. Alcock, was obliged to have recourse to such acts.
In proceeding to China his object should be to carry out his
instructions by bringing these difficulties to a close. He was
not so wedded to his own opinions as to press them unneces-
sarily, if opposed to the views of the Cabinet and the feelings
of the people. The noble earl who had just spoken said that
we ought to have made a formal declaration of war, hnt he
did not think his noble friend had considered all the coneee
quences which might follow from adopting such a course.
Apart from minor considerations, a declaration of war would.
involve the necessity of inflicting an enormous amount of
misery on that portion of the people of China with whom
they never had any quarrel, and with whom they desired to

PRICE 4D. STAMPED, SD.

remain at peace. The war in the north of China would be
chiefly conducted between the troops on both sides, and
though he did not undervalue the loss of human life even
under those circumstances, the evil consequences would be
less than if they were to snake war on the whole population
of China. The doctrine had been laid down that the best
way of bringing about an accommodation was to put a
pressure on the people, but that was less true of China than
any other country is the world. He hoped the Government
would not be induced, by any pedantic notions, to increase
the evils of a war which all must as much deplore. (Hear.)
The Earl of MALMESBURY said he did not wish any
further pressure to be put upon the remote population of
China. What ho had said was, that if war was to be car-
ried on it ought to be preceded by a declaration of war.
Thii would be done in the ease of every other nation in the
world.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he could not re-
fuse himself the gratification of stating publicly that he
thought no public man was ever called upon to make so
great a sacrifice as the noble earl had been called upon to
make when lie was requested to return to China. He was
performing a public duty, and deserved the greatest grati-
tude on the part of the country. (Hear, hear.) It was
impossible to find anywhere any person to whom the
conduct of the negotiations with the Chinese Govern-
ment could be entrusted with so much hope of success,
through peace, as the noble earl. He had conducted the
former negotiations with a degree of ability and capacity
that was rarely found in the possession of any public man;
and it was particularly desirable that he should be again
associated with the same ambassador on the part of France,
with whom his relations had always been those of personal
amity and friendship. (Hear, hear.) Under those circum-
stances he entertained better hopes than he should under
any other of a pacific result of the mission. But he had
great difficulties to encounter ; and one of the greatest and
most serious was that, in conducting a war with a view to
peace, we were compelled,ta co-operate with a Power which
had not our interests .nonyour views. We desired nothing
but peace with honour ; he feared that France desired ho-
nour without peace. We desired nothing but submission
from the Chinese Emperor; the French had declared that
they desired;to chastise. That was a word that ought not
to be admitted into the language of civilised States ; and he
was sure that no feeling of that descriptiOn animated the
noble earl. It was a sad thing to be compelled to go into a
war in which it was equally to be regretted that•we should
have success or defeat. Defeat would bring great loss, but
success, such as might be obtained if military operations
were conducted against Pekin, Would produce one of the
greatest and most appalling and extensive calamities with
which the human race had ever been visited. (Hear, hear.)
There was an unfortunate example of this in the dreadful
war of 1842. It could not be doubted that on the advance
of an hostile arniy towards Pekin with the prospect of oc-
cupying it, every woman and every child would be sacri-
fled to the heartless and barbarotia superstition which pre-
vailed amongst the Chinese. Such would be the dreadful
effect of our success in China. Nor could it be doubted that
the occupation of Pekin for a short period would altogether
destroy the authority of the Chinese Government from one
end of the empire to the other, and would give general
triumph to that horrible collection of men, who could hardly
be regarded as human beings, the rebels who for many
years had been desolating that empire. The noble earl had
seen with his own eyes the effect of that dreadful strug-
gle ;.and his sentiments of humanity would induce him to
do all he could to preserve the power of the Government,
the upholding of which could alone re •establish prosperity in
China. He had the greatest confidence in the opinion of
the noble earl ; but he had never been able to comprehend
the importance which had always been attached to the pre-
sence of a British Minister at Pekin. (Hear.) If he were
admitted there willingly, with a desire on the part of the
Chinese Government to have him there for purposes of
communication and advice, and to prevent those calamities
which had occurred during war, then, no doubt, his pre-
sence would be of great value to the Chinese Government
and to ourselves. But if he were forced upon them, he
would bo a constant menace and humiliation to the Chinese
Government, and his presence could not bo attended with
benefit. He implored their lordships to road and ponder
the statement of Mr. Alcock, to which reference had been
made ; they would then see.thatunless our own merchants
and people were controlled, there was no hope of permanent
peace. (Hear, hear.) To that fact more than any other we
might trace all the difficulties that had occurred since the
trade with China was thrown open. So long as merchants
trading to China were under the strict control of the East
India Company there was no, war ; and a single
.ship occav
sionally visiting Canton was perfectly sufficient to protect
our interests. Since that time there had been a continued
succession of wars; and there was not one to which,
directly or indirectly, the reckless avarice of our own people
had not materially contributed. He...held this last war to
have been commenced in utter wantonness; it was unjust,
and was so from the beginning. He held that it was not
lawful to make war for the purpose of making money.
(Hear) It was a crime. We had received one grave rebuke
in the progress of our operations since the war began; he
hoped that we might not receive another and a graver. We
were now in a position in which it was perhaps impossible
to arrest our course ; but it was a position which we had
brought upon ourselves; it was founded upon wrong; and
wrong would not continually be protected by Providence.
(Hear, hear.) To him this was a mostdistressing subject,
for when in India be became well acquainted with the
character of war in China. There were statements in the
despatches which he then received giving an account of
the sufferings of the people in consequence of the war which
he dared not publish; he did not dare to make known the
horrors which came to his knowledge in consequence of that
war. It would be difficult for us at any time so to conduct a
war with China as to avoid a repetition of those horrors—
but he felt convinced that the noble earl, seeing the import-
ance of his mission—how deeply it affected the honour and
interests of this country, and the much higher interests of
humanity—would endeavour to the utmost of his power to
bring these sad hostilities to a pacific termination. (Hear.)
Earl GREY said ho was convinced that if the Govern-
ment had wished to give the information which he sought
there would not have been the slightest difficulty in pro-
curing it. Their refusal wasa plain symptom of the motives
which he had ascribed to the Government. What had a unified
force of 20,000 French and English' soldiers, arriving in
China in ihe middle of summer, to do with the protection of
British lives and property at those places where outrages
had taken place? The Government ought, in some shape
or other, to have invited an expression of opinion on the
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hlsresae.staudtbhltj
nehe celtthuicleicoesumitiillodeonarhnaw;e:beind,eleie
bolicif
Mr. Alcock. It was impossible for them to do so without
blushing for the honour of England, and feeling how deep
a responsibility this country was incurring by its proceedL
ings in that quarter. Perhaps it was the best course which
they:could adopt to send out the noble earl ; but he re-
gretted that it had not been done sooner. He would not

press the motion.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that on tne occa-
sion he had been compelled to make an estimate for an ex-
pedition to China; and he could at least state that it was
perfectly possible, and that it was done in a very short time.
The motion was then withdrawn.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Lord REDESDALE movedt---" That no private bill
brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second

time after Tuesday, the 3d day of July next. That no bill
confirming any provisional order of the Board of Health, or
authorising any inclosuro of lands under special report of
the Inclosure Commissioners for England and Wales, or for
'confirming any scheme of the Charity Commissioners for
England and Wales, shall be read a second time after Tues-
day, the 3d day of July next. That when a bill shall have
passed this house with amendments, these orders shall not
apply to any new bill sent up from the House of Commons
which the chairman of committees shall report to the house
is substantially,the same as the bill so amended."
MR. WHITWORTH'S INVENTIONS.
The Earl of CAMPERDOWN asked what steps the Go-
vernment had taken in order to secure for this country the
benefit of Mr. Whitworth's inventions in rifled fire-arms and
projectiles. After claiming indulgence as a now member of
the house, the noble earl stated that he had given this notice
without any communication with Mr. Whitworth. He
brought forward the matter, not as a private grievance, but
as a question of national importance. It was the duty of
the Government to take the earliest opportunity of securing
every new invention in regard to fire-arms. In moving the
army estimates, Mr. S. Herbert had stated that the increase
was partly to be attributed to the necessity of laying in
stores of new arms and projectiles cf war, which the advance
of science had introduced, and which the neighbouring
countries of Europe were rapidly adopting. Acting upon
that principle, very large orders had been issued by the
Government for the Armstrong gun. He did not wish to
say a .word in disparagement of the admirable invention sf
Sir Wm. Armstrong ; his guns were superior to any previ•
ously used, and he deserved credit for the improvement he
had introduced. But he should be glad to have one point ex-
plained. At present Sir W. Armstrong occupied rather an
anomalous position. He had been appointed superintendent
of the royal gun factories, and he was also a contractor for the
guns. In appointing him superintendent of the factories, the
Government could have had no intention of plicing in the
hands of Sir William and his firm the monopoly of supplying
those guns. Recently very great improvements had been
made in the artillery invented by Mr. Whitworth. Mr.
Whitworth was:one of those geniuses who fortunately were
not rare in thisnountry, who, commencing life as a working
man in this metropolis, in the establishment of Messrs.
Maudslay And Co.; had worked himself up from receiving
wages to the height of professional reputation. (Hear, hear.)
There was UP one more highly looked up to by scientific

_~~'

-
NEWSPAPER
men, not only in this country, but in . 1iiii,.....;-
would. He was almost universally silted--; . ":', ~•, '''&
matters in every country. (Hear, h • --zWheit 14i4;4111,44r
Ilk
question of the measures of this co '-',,. unillitzitil'-' .14
sion, Mr. Whitworth was employed eit*. t the _
~, .
~.-z;•
When a new machine was necessary t
,io:te4 the lieriket -,
that house, the architect of the building appliedrik.
Whitworth. He had invented a gun, and 4i lid s 'Ma
it to experiments which had been decidedly successful.,
Every one who had seen the gun declared that it was the:
best ever produced. Mr. Whitworth had been induced to

turn his attention to the improvement of gunnery by an
application from the Government of the day in 18.54, in the
midst of the Crimean war. In that year Mr. Whitworth
first turned his attention to this subject, and ever since that
time he had been eminently successful in his reeearehea.
his rifle was vastly superior to the rifle already in use. Re
believed that this rifle had been considered by trio com-
mittees, and as it appeared with no practical result. ff e
(the Earl of Camperdown) might perhaps be told that
financial considerations had prevented its adoption; but
could such considerations prevail for a moment when the

lives of brave men were at stake ? Mr. Whitworth had
produced a rifle which would carry a ball a distance of 5
miles ; and he (Lord Camperdown) had been informed by
a person who had never handled a gun before in his life,
that with one of these rifles he had been able at a distance
of two miles to send two shots into a mark six feet high by
one-and-a-half foot broad. Sir J. Burgoyne had stated that
he had never seen a better or more simple weapon. At the trial
not only Sir J. Burgoyne but a numberof the manufecttlting
population of Lancashire were present. Mr. Fairbairn, who
was also present, congratulated the country upon such an ac-
quisition. There were present, moreover, not only English-
men but the represent dives of foreign sovereigns—partite
from the Russian and French armies,and representatives of
almost every Government in Europe. Mr. Whitworth him-
self had been compelled to erect a manufactory at Men -
chester, unaided by the Government, for the sale of these
rifles to private persons. He desired therefore to put to
her Majesty's Government the question of which •he had
given notice.
Earl DE GREY and RIPON said it would scarcely, be
necessary to tell the noble earl er to assure their lordships
that the great results of the trial of the gun which had been
invented by Mr. Whitworth, as exhibited by the;experi-
ments at Southport., had engeged the attention of Ms right
hon. friend the Secretary at War and of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. Those experiments had attracted attention in
every part of rho country, and the report of their results
had received the best consideration at the hands of the Mi-
nistry. lie begged further to state that the object of the
Government in regard to this matter being simply to obtain
for the country the weapon which was most efficient for
warfare, his right hon. friend had determined that a formal
trial of this gun should take place, to be Under the supervi-
sion of officers of the Government appointed ti superintend
experiments of this nature, and who are wholly unconnected
with any particular manufacturer or inventor—namely, the

members of the Ordnance Select Committee, presided over
by au officer of great experience, Cal. St. George, who
himself was present at Southport at the first display of the
rifled cannon invented and recently exhibited by Mr.Whit-
worth. Nothing could be snore important than that thi a
country, distinguished as it was for its triumphs of mechani-
cal genius, should be provided with the best weapon of
defence that could be invented; and he (Earl de prey)
could assure the noble earl that no adherence to precon-
ceived opinion would deter her Majesty's Government from
selecting that weapon which, after investigation, should
turn out to be the best. He was sure, however, that the
house would not desire her Majesty's Government to decide
without a full and complete examination. They were an-
xious, therefore, to propose this trial; Mr. Whitworth )Mad
declared himself ready to submit his gun to the examination
and there could be no question, as the results at Southport
showed, that the gun would prove itself; most valuable en-
gine of warfare under any ci rcurnst ances under which it might
be tried. There was one point, however, in his noble friend's
speech which he (Earl de Grey) had heard with less plea-
sure than the rest. His noble friend appeared to draw an
unnecessary comparison between Mr. Whitworth's inven-
tion and that of Sir W. Armstrong. Both the inventors
were men of great ability and remarkable talent—(hear,
hear)—and whilst he quite agreed in the eulogy which had
been passed upon Mr. Whitworth, he must take exception
to that part of his noble friend's speech which seemed to
convey something of a reflection on Sir W. ArmatroM's
present position. There was no intention on the part elk
her Majesty's Government to give to any one a monopoly 4
Government manufacture. It would be granted neiSher to
Sir W. Armstrong nor to the company which he represented.
The noble earl must remember that the late GOvernment
entered into certain arrangements with Sir W. Armstrong
relative to the works at Elswick, which were of a yew
peculiar character. Sir W. Armstrong gave up his hint..

_ .
Lion
on and all the improvements which be had subsequent];
made it. In return ho was appointed to the office, of over-
seer of rifled ordnance, with a salary of 53,000 a-year. Very •
shortly after a large supply of rifled cannon was required.
Sir W. Armstrong 'Was the only person who could make
these particular cannon, though other guns could be made
at ordinary iron works or anywhere else. Consequently, Sir
W. Armstrong's foundry was established at Woolwich, and
General Peel devoted the energies of the gunmskers at
Woolwich to rifled ordnance. But his right hon. friend had
no intent ion of siviug either to Sir W. Armstrong or to any
ono els_e an exclusive monopoly. If Mr. Whitworth or any
other inventor could show any superiorityin his invention,
an opportunity would be afforded to him of displaying it.
There was one point, however, connected with the W hit-
worth rifle to which lie would venture to allude. It must
be borne in mind that when the trialwiththe Whitworth eincl.
Enfield rifle which had been referred to was made, the
Whitworth rifle was a much more costly weapon than that
which was ultimately adopted. He was not speaking of
great guns ; but in speaking of the rifles, the expense did
materially enter into calculation, when there was a question
of supplying the army with one sort of weapon. Mr.
Whitworth, however, was now able to produce rifles
at less cost. He had, he believed, stated all that
his noble friend wished to now. Ha begged to
assure his noble friend there was every intention on the
part of the Government to examine this question, in the
fullest manner, and to decide in the fairest spirit upon
the invention which might prove most efficient; nor need
any ? inventor be afraid of not obtaining a fair and
honourable trial if he were only willing to submit to it.
(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CAMPERDOWN, in explanation, begged
to disavow having used any expressions which were in-
tended to cast any reflection upon the character or position
of Sir \V. Armstrong.
The subject then dropped, and their lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAT.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were considered and eatlered for third
reading :—Consett District Water, Lincoln Heath, and
Market Deeping Roads, Stourbridge Railway, Well ogten
(Salop) Water, and Inverness and Aberdeen Ju action
Railway.
THE RECENT DEATH ON THE NORTH EXNT
RAILWAY.
Mr. DEEDES moved an address for copy of ...letter
(with its inclosures), from the Admiralty to the )Nome-
office, dated the 6th day of February, 1860, relative to the
death of a boatman on the North Kent Railway.—Ordered.
ADMISSION OF ENGLISH GOODS INTO
FRANCE.
Mr. EGERTON asked the Chanceller of the Exche-
quer whether any supplemental treaty had been +knurl
between this country and France on the sal eject of the
ties on goods admitted from this country into France ; and,
if so, whether he had any objection to lay it o a the table.
Lord J. RUSSELL—No such supplemental treaty had
been made.
SAN JUAN.
Mr. LAYFIELD asked what progress had' been made
with reference to the settlement of the San Jnnn question,
and whether Government would object to prod using my
correspondence that had passed between the British awl
American Governments on the subject.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that communications wk ere goithg
on between the respective Governments with refavenee to
the subject.
ANNEXATION OF ITALIAN STATES TCli SAR•
DINIA.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Mr. HENNESSY moved that the house at its ri sing de
adjourn until Monday, and asked the Secretary o f State
for Foreign Affairs whether the Government had z WO/Jed
her Majesty to recognise the annexation of Bologna,, Tns-
cany, Modena' and Parma to the kingdom of Sardinia ; and,
if so, whether ho is prepared to state the reasons which t have,
induced the Government to tender such advice to her Mr ties ty.
He availed himself of the opportunity to draw the attisntion
of the house to the gross neglect of Irish business which
characterised the proceedings of Government during the
present session. lie called on the right hon. gentleman the
Secretary for Ireland to state what course he
intended to pursue with regard to _lrish
sures during the present session. He bore personal
testimony to the courtesy of the right hon. entleman, but
that courtesy
could not compensate for his ignormee of
Ireland and the Irish, and he considered that he was aa
competent to compote with the plain honest_polim, that
existed in that country, as the noble lord the Foreign
cretary was with the policy of Vienna and Paris.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that he did not rise to answer
the question of the hon. gentleman, but he reminded the
house of the time occupied two or three years ago in the
consideration of Irish affairs to the exclusion of Scotch and.
English business. That these affairs did not occupy se
much of the attention of hon. members was a mat-

ter ;of congratulation, because it indicated aninprOTedl
state of the condition of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He
must object to the motion of the hon. member for the ad-

journment of the house until Monday, as it would be neces-
sary for hon. members to meet to-morrow in ordetto receive
ft commission. It was not the intention of his noble friend,
the Foreign Secretary to propose the resumption of the,
adjourned debate on the Reform Bill this evening, but .to
postpone it until after Easter. (Hear, hear.)
THE RECEIVER MASTER OF THE COURT, OF
CHANCERY IN IRELAND.

Mr. WHITESIDE drew the attention of the house to
the recent appointment of Mr. Lyle, at present Receiver
Master of the Court of Chancery in Ireland to the dignity
of Lord-Lieutenant of the county of Londonderry, and to
the circumstances under which such appointment was
made. lie considered the appointment, on the eve of
a general election, of a gentleman like Mr. Lyle.
who, from his antecedents and profession, was not properly
qualified for the office, was an insult to the nobility and
gentry of Londonderry. He had no objection to that gen-
tleman receiving a retiring pension for his services,
but what he objected to was the appointment of a !poli-
tical partisan at such a criFis
Mr. CARDWELL defended the appointment. Thera
[Continued iu our fourth page.)