The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-27 00:00:00

2 1.;4',

8 5 8.
which Lord Derby pre- cured the house that when in office he had gone over every
committee, and the consideration possible scheme of election which could be suggested, but
e.ect seven or eight days. We may require as he could not find one which was compatible with a com-
Lox. the consideration of this bill. I think, however, mon sense view of the question. When the right hon.
she points of consideration are not numerous. The first gentleman (the Chancel'or of the Exchequer) talked of
point is that you are asked to transfer the whole authority election•and representation—
of the East India Company to the Crown. The next The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I did not
question is, whether the the Secretary of State or the other talk of them. (Laughter.)
minister you are asked to set up, is to have a council to Mr. V. SMITH said he thought that the right hon.
assist him. This will not require very long argument. gentleman had certainly referred to the subject when he
The arguments lie on thesurface one way or the other. The spoke of the 101. householders, for instance. However,
next thing is to consider what is to be the nature of the i the fact was, that they could have no representation of
council. Upon that subject I entirely agree with the ob- India, because they could not face the real difficulty—they
servations of my noble friend the member for Tiverton. I must represent the natives, which no man of common
think it wise to have a council for the purpose of assisting sense would think of proposing. They, therefore, threw
the Secretary of State. I think it wise that he should be election, not on the tax-payers, but on the tax consumers.
informed by Persons of Indian experience of their opinion These pensioners of the military and civil services were
with respect to any measure concerninglndia, for however persons who were interested simply in deriving their re-
Plausible it might seem without such advice, it might venues from India. He would take one of the g
lennominee
have the effect of creating discontent and even rebellion in the right hon. gentleman's proposed council, for examp
India. I think it advisable to have a council to enable the that gentleman, early in his life, had been ten years in
minister himself to know what are the opinions of men of In lia, but had never been there since. (Hear, and a laugh.)
knowledge and official experience, but I hink it would be Such being the difficulties connected with election and re-
a great mistake if we attempted to give an independent presentation, they had reverted to nomination. But it
authority to such a council as that would divide the respon- seemed now to be presumed that a nominated person must
sibility, the unity of which is the great object of the whole necessarily be dependent, and it was the fashion to call
measure. Surround him with able men. Do not shrink them "nominees." One hon. gentleman who had spoken
from giving salaries that will enable you to obtain the ser- had gone so far as to call them " the miserable tools of a
vices of the best men who return from their important corrupt, Government." (Hear, and laughter.) He (Mr.
functions in India, but., =t aminister himself have the V. Smith) did not, however, see why nominees should be
responsibility—and , supreme he cannot have considered as being necessarily dependent. Such had not
that responsibility-1:, • supreme in his council, and been the case. Surely they could not deny the indepen-
stand up in Parliamen and defend the policy of which he deuce of the hon. gentleman the member for Leominster
is the author. (Hear.) Another point has been referred (Mr. Willoughby). (Hear.) He cool I not be called a
to, namely, the appointment of a portion of the council by barren nominee"—(laughter)- -or, as the hon. and
the electors of certain towns. If I could satisfy myself learned gentleman the member for Enniskillen (Mr. White-
that there was any body of electors that could select mem- side) had said, " the miserable tool of a corrupt Ministry.".
hers of the council better thanthe Crown could do, Isheuld (Hear, and laughter.) Nominees for a certain term of
give the power to do so to that body, but I own lam not years would be found as independent of the Crown as the
able to satisfy myself that such would be the case; for elected members :hemselves. The member for the Univer-
either a body of electors would be exceedingly numerous, city of Oxford had said that there was nothing in the bill
and consisting of persons having little or no interest in the to limit the powers of the secret committee ; but there was
good government of India, or they would be so few as a clause which compelled the Minister of the Crown to
to give rise to cab is. I think that, with certain restric- bring before Parliament, after a certain period, the meam-s-
-tions, the wiser course would be to give the power by which he had incurred any war in the East. The fact
of nomination to the Crown • and certainly no was, the see: et committee was a sham. The President of
man can be better qualified by ability and experience the Board of Control was the secret committee in fact,
of Indian matters to make a proper selection and he could issue orders through the secret committee
than Lord Ellenborough, the present President of the without consulting or informing Parliament at all. The
Board of Control. I believe that any Government would superiority of their bill (Lord Palmerston's) was, that it
endeavour to select the best men that could be procured, i did away with the secret committee. There, however,
and those who would endeavour to promote the best in- were questions which they would have ample opportunity
Wrests of India. It is well known that men in India take of discussing in committee. He thought these resolutions
little interest in the politics of this country, and it has a cumbrous and inconvenient mo.ie of proceeding; but
been stated of Lord Hardinge that he had had an aide-de- rather than oppose any obstacle to the settlement of the
camp for three years without knowing that he was a Ra- question this session, he would assent to llienr.
dical. After spending some years in India, whether in a I Mr. P. O'BRIEN contended that no grounds had
military or civil capacity, a man gets gradually weaned been showh for altering the verdict which a majority of
from those habits and partialities which divide politicians 145 of them had given on the subject some two or three
in this country ; and, therefore, I think there is every months ago.
chance that it will not be difficult to obtain able and im- Mr. WHITESIDE said the difficulties of this question

partial advisers of the Crown from that quarter. If this
house does not think fit to consider the question .relating to
the Government of India in the present year, I should not
agree in their decision ; but, if that is their decision, I
think the matter should be deliberately weighed. We
should consider what will be the effect on India of this
sudden change of opinion on the part of the house. I
think the hon. member for Buckingham is one of those who
are in the habit of sliding from one argument into another.
He says, " Why legislate this year? Why not wait till
next year ? There is surely no hurry. The Government
of the East India Company is as perfect as any other, and
there is no reason for changing it." (Hear, hear.) Well,
if there be no reason for changing it, say so plainly, but
do not hold out the hope of such a change when you have
no intention that it should be made. If the present sys-
tem of government be so perfect as has been maintained,
it will be better to uphold it ; but the majority at both
sides of the house have come to the conclusion that a
change ought to be mace. I do not think the immediate
change will be either so vast or so striking as some persons
expect, though no doubt groat changes may afterwards be
expected. The Board of Control now possesses a power
which can overrule the Court of Directors, so that there
cannot be any very great increase in the power of the
Crown, while there would be a different mode of trans-
acting Indian business, but which will lead, I believe,
to the future consideration of the financial system of
India; and that consideration will lead, in the
course of years, to many changes, which I believe will be
for the benefit of India, which is the main con,i-
deration. If any change would be for the benefit of the
millions of India over whom we now hold rule, that would
be a sufficient la mon for it. I hope, under all the circum-
stances of the case, that the house will vote in favour of
the resolutions proposed by the right hon. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. MANGLES said he should vote against any measure
which had for its object to take from the East India Com-
pany that power end authority which he believed they had
used for the welfare of India. If the directors were over-

would increase as they progressed, but if the right hon.
gentleman opposite always dealt with it in the same pleas-
ing manner as he hart treated it that evening, it could not
be in more pleasing hands. (Laughter.)
Sir E. COLEBROOKE thought the house ought not to
come to a division on such a subject as this without a full
debate. There ought to be a clear understanding that a
division should be taken on Friday night.
After a few words from Mr. COSSLEY,
Mr. GREGORY withdrew his amendment, saying that
he could not misunderstand the feeling of the house on the
question, and claiming, on behalf of any more prominent
member of the house, the power of renewing the motion,
if it should appear necessary hereafter, in the further pro-
gress of this question.
The motion was then agreed to.
SUPPLY.
•
On the motion for receiving the report of the Committee
of Supply,
Sir GI C. LEWIS wished to ask the tight hon. gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would
have any objection to postpone the bill relative to the Ex-
chequer Bonds, as he wished to call the attention of the
house to the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
a question of urgency that the Exchequer Bonds Bill
should be advanced further that night. and he should be
obliged to the light.hon. gentleman if he could reserve his
observations till the War Sinking Fund Bill was brought
forward.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he should certainly acquiesce in
the wish of the right hon. gentleman, though he should
have preferred making his statement when the Exchequer
Bonds Bill was moved.
Ou the question that the report of the Committee of
Supply be received,
Mr. BENTINCK, after reminding the house of the dis-
cussion which had taken place with reference to the gun-
boats at Hasler, said he wished to ask the right hon.
baronet the late First Lord of the Admiralty a question
on the subject, the answer to which,
.if it accorded

powered. in their opposition, he would still do all in his
power to render the measure as perfect as possible.
Mr. BAILLIE said that the amendment of the hon.
member for Galway seemed to him to say that they ought
to proceed to legislate for India by way of bill rather than
by resolutions. (Cries of no, no, and real ) The words of
the amendment were, " That at this moment it is not de-
sirable to pass any resolution," &o. That did not say how-
ever, that they were not to proceed by way of bill. But the
question before them was as to their mode of proceeding,
and he thought it would be more convenient to proceed by
way of resolutions, which was better than if they were to
bring in a bill.
Sir G. GREY said he did not understand that the issue
which they were called upon to decide was whether they
were to proceed by bill or by resolutions, if he under-
stood the observations of the hon. member for Galway his
arguments were against the present mode of proceedure,
and that, in fact, we ought notnow to attempt to legislate
for the government of India. And understanding this to,
be the object of the hon. gentleman in moving this amend-
ment he (Sir G. Grey) was disposed to vote with the Go-
vernment against it. But if the question was, as was
urged by the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Baillie),
merely whether they should legislate for India by bill or
by resolutions, then he must reconsider the vote which he
, should give on that subject ; but as the question raised by
the amendment was whether they should legislate at this
moment, then he should vote for the Government. The
right hon. gentleman the member for the University of
Oxford had certainly shown that there were precedents
for proceeding to legislate on this question by way of reso-
lutions; still his (Sir G, Grey's) opinion was in favour
of proceeding by bill, but ho was not disposed to press his
opinion to a division, as he would not take the responsi-
bility on himself of causing delay on this subject.
Mr. Walpole then rose, but was met by cries of "the
member for Galway," whereupon the right hon. gentleman
sat down.
Mr. GREGORY said that the object of his amendment
was to induce the house to get rid of all legislation respect-
ing India this session. (Hear, hear.) And if he succeeded
• in inducing the house to assent to his amendment, and by
doing so, get rid of the resolutions now before it, then the
house could proceed to consider the bill of the noble lord.
the member for Tiverton.
Mr. WALPOLE said that if such was the intention of
the hon. gentleman, it would have been as well if his
amendment had been so worded as to enable the house
precisely to understand it. The question really before them
was, was it desirable now to legislate for the Home Go-
vernment of India ? Ho was one of those who voted with
the hon. member for Huntingdon, in February lest, against
altering the Home Government of India at a time when a
mutiny was raging in that country, and, having so voted,
if the question were now in the same position in which it
then stood, he would have concurred in the amendment
proposed by the hon. member for Galway; but let the
house consider the state which the question was now in. A
large majority affirmed in February last that they ought
to proceed to legislate for the Home Government of India
this session; but if they were now in April disposed to
rescind the motion come to in February, then due notice
ought to be given of a motion on the subject, so that the
house might be prepared to give a direct vote respecting it.
Let, then, the hon. member give notice of a motion for
Friday night, when the resolutions were to be brought for-
ward, and then the question raised by the amendment
could be fully discussed. (Hear, hear.) Under the present
circumstances of the case he would not enter into the clues.
tion as opened by the noble lord the member for London,
but he would be prepared to do so on a future occasion
when the whole question was before the house.
Sir F. BARING said he voted on a former occasion for
& postponement of legislation, and he should still support
that opinion. But, at the same time, if they were to
change their course, some notice of a motion to that effect
should be given. (Hear, hear.) Ho did not attach much
weight to changing the resolution come to by the house in
February last, because if they did not do so now they
would in July. (A. laugh.) At the same time, notice
should be given, and then however small the minority, he
would not be ashamed to form one of that minority.
Lord GODERICH said that he voted in February last
in favour of legislation, but after the speech of the right
hoe. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was
most important, he thought, that no hon. member should
pledge himself to any decided course till Friday next, when
the whole subject would be considered.
Mr. HORSIIA.N said that it appeared a change had
taken place in the feeling of 'the house, and that it had
spread very far beyond it. This house had; made a great
mistake iu entangling itself in Indian legislation before it
had made itself acquainted with Indian requirements.
Wera not all important acts of legislation preceded by
inquiry ? Were they agreed as to the basis of legislation I
Did any of the schemes proposed meet the goceral appro-
bation of the house, or would any one of them, if carried,
raise the character of the house? In neither of the bills
were to be fount the elements of what was required as
the existence of a council, and the nature'of the Govern-
ment in India itself was evaded rather than dealt with.
The difficulties were so groat that it was not likely they
could legislate satisfactorily on so important a subject this
year. That feeling was growing in the house, and he
thought the Government would exhibit the greatest moral
courage in declaring openly, and acting upon, this opinion
which they really entertained. They could pot be so san-
guine as to hope for success this year. The expression of
feeling in the house that, there should be a transfer of the
government of India from the Company to the Crown was
general, and therefore on Friday next the first of the
series of resolutions to that effect might be agreed to ;
but as for the second and following resolutions, it might
be easy to adopt a course to withdraw them for the present
session, and a motion for their postponement would, he
thought, meet with general sympalley and support. He
' believed the feeling of the house was so strong on this
point, that, although he did not wish to initiate any mo-
tion himself on the subject, if no other hon. member would
come forward and move that these resolutions be deferred
he would himself do it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. VERNON SMITH said he did not believe the opi-
nions of the Liberal members in favour of legislation were
altered, although the opinions of the members of the pre-
sent Government were changed. Ho thought the conduct
of the Government extraordinary in proposing legislation,
when they were individually opposed to it. The Govern-
ment of which he was a member did not propose to touch,
the Government of India. They only proposed to remodel
the home government of India, about which, as ho was in-
formed-by experienced Indians, the natives of India did
not care at all. Therefore, after what had passed in that
houseahe strongly deprecated the proposal for the appeint-
went ZI a committee. Neither did he approve of proceed-
ing by way of resolution. The business of the India House
during the existing uncertainty could not proceed satisfac-
torily, and if this great subject were postponed for another
year the consequences might be most serious. They had,
he thought, sufficiently consideredthe main propositions of
an Indian bill, and he could not conceive what could be
ga,ned by the postponement of legislation for anode year,
(Hear, from Lord J. Russell.) When his nobl f er
nd pro-
posed 'theo-esoluticns it was intended that they should con-
tain a wider, range of principle than those which were now
proposed by the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. The result of the resolutions now pro-
f o ed- would simply be that they would have the debare
twice instead of once. As to the question of nomination,
be agreed' that if .a suitable system of election could have
• been deviled it would have been preferable; but ho as-

with his anticipations, would show the public money was
squandered, and at the same time the necessity of some
more competent management in the Admiralty. The ques-
tion he had to put was, whether the right hon. baronet
was pro ared to state to the house whether the arrange-
ments for hoisting up the gunboats at Hasler were entered
on with the sanction of the naval officers of the Board of
Admiralty, or at his own.direction.
Sit C. a OOD said he had given an answer to the hens
gentleman's question on a former occasion, which he sup-
posed would have sufficed. He would now, however, state
that the question was merely one of hauling up vessels,
an, I, therefore, one which a person of mechanical skill
might be competent to settle, even if he had never been to
sea at all. Various plans for the purpose had been pre-
pared from time to time in the office of the Director of
Works, with whom, he might say, rested the engineering
works of the Admiralty. A. report was prepared on the
subject, and the plan being carried nut, he was bound
to say he thought it was a very convenient mode of getting
the boats op. It was so considered by every member of
the Board of Admiralty. Further than that, he must 'date
that he was never in the habit of giving orders himself
without consulting his colleas.nes. In this case he had cer-
tainly not consulted any officers at Por smouth or Haslar,
but he never beard any objection taken to the system.
Sir C. NAPIER said that, having promised to make an,
inquiry into this subject at. Ilaslar, he had done so, and ho
would first remark that, a first objection to what had been
done would be this—that the boats were hauled up in the
wrong place: The selection of the place was decidedly bad,
but more than that, the first boat of the 40 hauled up had
to go a distance of 70J feet, the next 40 more, the next 80,
and so on ; so that he supposed it would take a month to
launch them. He would take that opportunity of saying
that Portsmouth harbour, being very much ci,cumscribed,
the Government would do well to purchase land for en-
larging it, and if that were delayed much longer the pur-
chase might become more difficult. At Malta, too, the
land should be bought. He would also mention that he had
received a letter, stating that some ships had been sent to
the coast of Africa with a short supply of coals.
Mr. CORRY remarked that the vote for the purchase
of land at Malta had not been struck out, and the land
would be purchased. He could say nothing about the
coals.
The several votes were then agreed to, .and the report
received.
THE. ARTILLERY AND ENGINEERS.
On the order of the day for going into committee of
sapply,on the army estimates,
Mr. MONSELL moved that an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, praying her Majesty that no altera-
tion may be made in the existing arr ngements which re-
gulate the admission to cadetships in the Royal Artillery
and Royal Engineers. The right hon. gentleman said he
had not the least fault to fin,' with the right hon. gentle-
man opposite, the Minister for War, who had done all in
his power to prevent the existing system from being dis-
continued. He had continued it for two years longer, and
he (Mr. Monsell) was therefore not without hope that it
would still be preserved. It had been remarked, that as so
many of his countrymen succeeded at these examinations
it was really an Irish question, but to that he would only
say, that disclaiming such an idea, if even the maxim
detur digniori meant " let it be given to an Irishman," he
was sure English and Scotch gentlemen would not for that
reason wish for the abolitiou of the present system, but
would rather seek to improve their own schools and col-
leges, to enable their own candidates to compete more suc-
cessfully with those from Dublin. At present, all natural
born subjects of her Majesty, between the ages of 17 and
20, were allowed to compete at Woolwich for these cadet-
ships. The examinations were conducted by men of emi-
nence in the several departments of science, and it had.
been admitted that the system had worked well. It was
now sought to introduce a qualification, to be obtained at
the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. So far as the prin-
ciple of open competition went, it hadibeen conceded by the
Horse Guard; ant the board was composed of military offi-
cers, presided by H.R. H. the Commander-in-Chief. The
hon. member then stated that in the Ecole Polytechn'que,in
France, the successful competitors were of the ages fromdB
to 20. Did the house, he would aik, consider it expedient to
give a monopoly to Sandhurst, and to abandon a sy stem which
workei tolerably well. The great military Powers edu-
cated the students separately intended for the Artillery
and Engineers and the Line. To educate the students in
ono common school who were intended for the different
branches would be exceedingly objectionable. There was
no doubt that at Addiscombe the students intended for
the Artillery and Engineers wore educated along with the
officers intended for the Line in India. He thought there
were serious objections to educating the students in the
differeut branches at one common sctiool. The only altera-
tion he would wish would be to follow the advice of Cul.
Wilford, to allow theoretical and practical education to go
on together, to raise the ages of the boys, so that they
would stand at 17 to 20, and to allow the pepits at the
school at Woolwich to samnpete with Saudhurst. The
young men now admitted at-Woolwich were of superior
attainments. The effect which the present system had
produced throughout the country was this—there were se-
veral schools which prepared their students to compete at
Woolwich; and if there was a certainty of the system
being continued other public schools would give similar
education. The hole member then contrasted the system
of military education given in France with that which was
given in England, and he entreated the right hon. gentle-
man (General Peel) not to alter a system which was work-
ing tolerably well. (Hear, hear.) He concluded by mov-
ing his motion
shie attention duty
if
h e h 1 r. Lid n
not
Flto
pressY
upon w o u ltdh
ef we lg hh et didn
.ngoetupt el
er perform
u
the necessity of attending to the request whicn hat been
made by the boo, gentleman (Mr. Monsell.)
Sir F. SMITH had had an opportunity of judging of the
education given at Addiscombe. The whole time spent in
acquiring mathematics was only, two years, about five
months in each. He hoped his hon. and gallant friend
would not break up the present system, for if he did so he
would reduce the standard much too low.
Sir W. WILLIAMS agreed with his hon. and gallant
friend, and hoped no change would take place In the pre-
sent 'system, He was himself an officer belonging to
Woolwich, but he might say that that place produced
officers second to none in Europe for scientific attainments.
He had given the entire subject his consideration, and
hoped the hon. and gallant general the Secretary for War
would not make the proposed change.
General PEEL assured the house that he made no
establishedwefp rrareeesestpos
as
sbt
ne
atp aiaaventsne
ondbtf
that
otlavoatt
Woolwich
oohti
scetwehhai
wecad
hhmeclo;eoi rscs
but,
since changes whatever in the system. Lord Panmure, when
pnS
:mar
debt
efadroahroyuft
rfThso
ethr
m commissionsewW:
ga aebs rnu ,
entroatthli
aast:
-ttoheSwaT,r
since he came into office, that had been altered by his
Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, and young men
were now enabled to enter for as many examinations as
they thought proper. He believed that competition would
now be opened to a greater number of persons than hereto-
fore ; and certainly the final compeCtive examination for
the scientific branches would be higher, and he believed
more satisfactory. He found that w.s the system esta-
blished by Lord Panmure, who paid the greateSt attention
to the subject, who sent a commission abroad to inquire
into the systems at foreign colleges, and he certainly
thought_that the alterations he made were most beneficial.
He thought, however, that an inquiry might be of use ;
and, though;he could not agree to the motion of the hon.