The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-01 00:00:00

ECCLESIASTICAL CONIMISSION.

Mr. DEE DES moved for cipies of a report, dated
the 21st day of January, 1853, made by the Estates Com
mittee of the Ecclesiastical Commission on the subjlat of
local claims upon pr perty vested in the commission ;
and of the minute of the reaolu•ion of the Boar‘f, of the
11th day of February, 1858, having reference thereto.
—Agreed to.

THE MILITIA.

In angwer to a question from Mr. LABOUCTIERE,

Mr. WALPOLE said it was not intended to call the
militia out for training bef ire the 30th June, the usual
time fq. so doin7.

MR. JAMES, Q.C., AND DR. BER,NA.RD.

Mr. HUNT asked the S-cretary of State f or the Home
Department whether his attention had been called to the
repert is the papers of yesterday of a meeting hell on
the 28th inst. at St. Martin's-hall, in aid of the "Press
Pro,ecutionDefence Fund," at which one of H.M.'s coun-
sel was present, and said to have taken pelt in the pro-
ce,mlings, and al-o, whetherit was competent for Queen's
Counsel to refuse to hold a brief for the Crown in a Swe
prosecution.
Mr. WALPOLE said my attention had not been
called to the report in question b fore the hon. member
gave notice of his question. I tben, undoubtedly, sent
for the newspapers to see whatwas reported to have taken
place at that meeting, and I need not say that I read it
with the utmost astonishment. (Hear, bear.) Sipco
that time I bare been informed by a gerelenian of the
house, and a friend of Mr. James, that. Mr. James did
attend the meeting in company with Dr. Bernard,
hut only as an auditor, and was called on to the platform
without previous notice, and, I am glad to add, that he
states the report referred to is incorrect. With refer-
once to that part of the question whether a brief was
offered to Mr. James from the Crown, and whether it is
competent for her Majesty's counsel to refuse to hold a
brief for the Crown in a State prosecution, I have only
this plain statement of facts to make. First, I have to
state that a Queen's Coons 1 cannot act in a Crown pro-
secution without licence from the Crown given for that
purpose ; and, stcendly, the Attorney-General wishing
the assistance of such criminal lawyers a: he thought
advisable in conducting the prosecution of the Crown io
the late State prosecutions, applied to Mr. James,
through the solicit .r to the Treasury, for his assistance,
to which that gentleman replied by letter, which I now
hold in my hand. He states in his letter—"l have
been retained by the defendant, and I have had consulta
tions in the case with the counsel and attornies engaged,
and I presume, under these circumstances, the Attorney-
General will not insist on my services." (Cheers.) Now,
I think it right to brine itclearly under the notice of the
house, as statemtuts have gone forth to the public
totally contrary to that inepressioa, and which
ought not to be left on the minds of the public
with reference to these proceedings—statements
which I hope are incorrect--that Mr. James stated that
he had rejected a retainer from the Crown in the late
State prosecutions becaaie ho believed an obselete act
of Parliament was sought to be put in force to please a
foreign despot—to bring under the notice of the house
the correspondence that passed between :11.r.Jamee and the
solicit or to the Treasury, in reference to his defending Dr.
Bernard in the late State prosecution, and I will read the
answer of the Solicitor to the Treasury, given with my
complete sanction, knowledge, and concurrence, to Mr.
James's letter, which I think will show the house that
every possible opportunity was intended at that time to
be offered by the Crown to Dr. Bernard to have such
counsel as he chose to defend him on his trial. (Hear.)
Mr. Greenwood, the Solicitor to the Treasury, replied to
James's letter as follows :--" I have shown your
letters to the Attorney-General, and he desires me to
say that he was not aware you had been retained for
Dr. Bernard's trial, still less that you had conferred
with his counsel and solicitors. He thinks it
would be of great disadvantage to the prisoner
now to be deprived of your assistance, and
would give him just cause of complaint, and there-
fore you ought to be at liberty to go on in his behalf."
(Hear.) I will now read to the house Mr. James's
answer to this letter which I think wdl satisfy the house
that there must be some strange error or inaccuracy in
the report referred to. Mr. James says, in reply,
" I thank you for your note and I feel the Com-
pliment paid to me by the Attorney-General." (dear,
hear.) Iwi I only add the licence for Mr. James to
defend Dr. Bernard was immediately given, and I hope
when this plain statement goes forth to the country the
people will see that the Crown on no occasion in this
kingdom deprives a prisoner of the assistance of any
learned counsel he may desire to have to defend him on
his trial. (Hear, hear.)
COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BAYSWATER
AND SOUTH KENSINGTON.

Mr. MACKINNON asked whether there was any

intention to accommodate the public by opening a com-
munication between Bayswater and South Keneington ;
and if so, in what mantle'?
Loid J. MANNERS said the cost of such a commu-
nica.ion would be about CO,OOO/.,
and he was not
pared to aik Parliament to grant such an outlay ter bat
tpr -
purpose,

EXECUTION IN Cll INA .
Mr. ROBERTSON said that in the Overland Friend
of China of the 12th of March, 1853, there Wan an
account of the execution of a woman at Canton, with
many horrid details. lie asked the TJnder-Secret
erary for
Foreign Affairs if such executions took place und the
sentence of any tribunal under our officialith or superinthoutend t
•
ence, and if they were carried into effect wwi
foreign official sanction ?
Mr. S. FI IZ(;ERA.LD said her Majesty's Govern-
ment bad received no inf,ration from Lord El •in
the character referred to. Of course if such inforniTioorf)
came to their knowledge it would be their duty to use
their best endeavours to Prevent i's recurrence.ecr
LIBERTY OF TIIE PRESS IN INDIA,ar
Mr. MILNER GIBSON asked the Secretary of the
steps
.Government Board of Control whether the
or proposed to take, anyhad taken,
in reference to the Act

,

-,1•••••111...1
XV. of 1857 of the Legislative Council of India for re
straining the liberty of the press.
Mr. H. BAILLIE said no steps bad been taken by
her Majesty's Government with reference to the alters.
tion referred to. It rested with the Governor General
of India, and on his communicating with the Horne
Government her Majesty's Government would take the
matter into consideration and decide upon it.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion for the adjournment of the house, the
important notices on the paper were postponed, t,)
enable the India resolutions to be brought early before
the house.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA.,
On the motion for going into committee to consider
the proposed resolutions of the Chancellor of the Exche•
quer,

Lord HARRY VANE moved "That the change of
circumstances since the first proposal by her Majesty's
late advisers to transfer the government of India from
the East India Company to the Crown renders it inexe
pedient to proceed further with legislation on the sub.
ject during the present session." With the permission
of the house he would very shortly review the circum.
stances which seemed, to him to justify his present me.
tion. Very shortly before the opening of the see-ion it
was announced that an intention existed on the part of
her Majesty's late Minister to introduce a bill to trent!
fer the government of India from the East India Com-
pany to the direct government of the Crown. During
the last year they passed through a eeyextraordinary
crisis, but they had at that time a Government
rently firm in the confidence of the house. /I-an:bPePeare.
in office during the whole of the Indian rebellio-
ni the
Government bad the means of judging whether cirenm
stances existed to render it expedient to introduce
some
-
change in the form of the Indian Florae Government
His noble friend (Lord Palmerston), it would be remem.
bered, obtained by a very large majority the connect of
the house to introduce a measure upon the subject.
Upon that occasion his hon. friend the member for
Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring) moved a resolution to the
effect that at that moment it was inexpedient to legislate
with reference to the government of India, and the reset.
lution received considerable support. Nevertheless, he
(Lord H. Vane) voted with her Majesty's Government
upon that occasion, because he thought it better they
should proceed to legislate at once, and because that
Government appeared to be firmly fixed in power. At
the same time, there was no denying the fact, that it
Was currently rumoured amongst the Liberal members,
that the bill of the Government was not approved of by
many, even by them who voted in its favour, and, indeed,
he had no doubt that these rumours reached the Go.
vernment. Many doubted whether it was expedient
that the electoral principle should be excluded from the
formation of the new council. Many again doubted
whether the number of the councillors was sufficient,
and whether their salaries were large enough to attract
the services of the ablest available talen'. Circum-
stances, however, shortly afterwards arose, which
ended in the overthrew of an apparently firmly
fixed administration. The new Government, per-
haps, in many respects judging wisely thought it
expedient to proceed with legislation for India.
They accordingly introduced a measure—which, let
him take leave to say, seemed more like the ingenious
scheme of some Abbe Sieyes, than the emanation of the
practical vigorous intellect of the nob e lord at the head
of the India Board. (Laughter.) The bill seemed most
unlikely to receive the support of the house. Indeed, in
no quarter did it conciliate favour. That very day he
read a speech made eiee where by a noble earl last night,
a speech of great ability undoubtedly, bat entirely tail-
ing to establish sufficient grounds for the acceptance of
his proposal. Such then, being the state c f circumstance,
his noble friend the member for the city of London in-
terposed with his high authority, and quoting various
precedents from past history with reference to le-
gislation for India pointed out the following three exam-
ples as the principles upon which the now measure
should be founded, and ought to be introduced by way
of resolution. Well, to-day they were invited to go into
committee on these resolutions ; but he for one must
confess that he saw but little prospect for weeks to
come of a decision being arrived at, and therefore it Was
that be was induced to submit his resolutions, affirming
that it was inexpedient for the present to legislate for
Inden That resolution he could assure the house was
not dictated by any party sprit while at the same time
he could further state that it was brought fur ward with-
out his being in any way cognisant of the proposal of
the hon. member for Ex -ter (Nlr. Divett). He feared
that many members of independent views had become
so entangled by the conflict of opinions which prevailed
that the only way of dragging them out of their present
uncertieinty was togive up the notion of legislating during
the present cession. They had three proposals before
them—that of the Government, that of the noble lord the
member for the city of London, and that of the late Go-
vernment; and the difference between the two latter
propositions was very essential ; for, according to that
of his noble friend the member for the city of London,
the council was to be independent, and was irremov-
able except for misbehaviour. Now he was not
speaking against legislation for India hereafter. Ho was
simply enunci sting the views of those who thought that
to enter upon a discussion of the future government of
India, at a moment when the country was overrun with
hordes of licentious soldiers, could only load to the pro-
traction of an unhealthy agitation, and to the establish-
ment of wrong principles. If he thought that the cir-
cumstances which had occurred ha I in any way inter-
fered with the service and ce-operation of those respon-
sible for the government of India, ha should not hesitate
to draw his opinion that the house had no choice but to
proceed at once to establish a different form ef govern-
ment for India ; but he found, so fir from that being
the case, that by the declarations of the noble earl at the
head of the Indian department, the action between him-
self and the board of directors was most harmonious.
There wag, theref )re, no reason for supposing that any
obstruction was thrown in the way of the eflisirs of India
being for the present, at all events, properly directed. It
was quite evident from what had occurred that neither in
Manchester, Liverpool, nor London was public opinion
matured on the queetion. Weil thee, was it wise in
them, merely because they bad entered upon legislation,
to require to postpone it, especially when no injurious
results could follow from that postponement ? He be-
lieved that the main ground urged for overthrowing the
Government of the Company was the necessity of con-
centrating responsibility in the Mini-ter of the Crown.
Now, he confessed, that the word responsibility had but
a very vague and indefinite meaning for him ; every-
thing, at any rate, depended upon the sense in which it
was used. It seemed to him that under the existing
system the Minietr was responsible for his acts just as
much as he would be under the altered form of govern-
ment. lie admitted, however, that there were evils in
the double Government ; and no doubt it would be here-
after desirable, fur the sake of dispatch, to introduce a
change in the double Government. But where was the
urgency for that change I (Hear, hear.) That mnst
always, to a certain extent, be a double Government,
unless, indeed, they were willing to concentrate the
whale of the Government of India in India. The present
motion was unqatestionehly inopportune for any change
in the government of Itelie. Where, toe, was the press-
ing necessity for a change Under the existing system
they had at any rate the advantage of able and compe•
teat councillors to superintend the affairs of India. Why,
then, part wiide such a body of able and competent men?
(Hear.) Depend upon it it would be far wiser fir them
to wait a little in order to sound public opinion ; for in
the end the opinions cf the great mass of the community '
must always sway that house. Believing, then, that it
would be most unstatesmeul ke to allow the character of
so important a measure to depend upon the chances of a
division in that house, and that in the presence of such a
medley of opinions they ought to postpone legi-lation,
ilieb:tted firstt pomr
~orvoe, a
i thathy herth e
Majesty'scha nge of
actiercu
advisersta ne
to
s
transfer the government of India from the East India
Cotupauy to the Crown, renters it inexpedient to proceed
further with legislation during the present Benin.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GREGORY begged to second the amendment,
which he WAS very glad the noble lord had deemed it his
duty to bring forward. It was seen that the house would
be guilty of self-stultification if it proceeded to reverse
its decision of Feb. 19 last, when they gave leave by an
immense majority fur the introduction of the bill of the
late Government. He could not conform to that opinion ;
for he believed that it was one thing to concede such an
authority to a seemingly strong Govet nment, and
another and very different thing to devolve such a power
upon a Government confessedly weak. Besides that,
the position of affa;re in India had altogether changed
since the House of Commons had come to that re-
solution. To carry a measure through for the better
government of India must be the work of a strong
Government, for no Opposition could possibly be /
equal to the task. Discussion as to the affairs of India
might no doubt be useful, but then, at the same time, .
the privilege might be too dearly bought. Let them,
then, then, renounce the determination to legislate for al
during
etphpe
oprrtee sneittiyt
fsoers s itohue,
eaonidl s
itdhearta
twi
ootiu lod f
d u leaveint
stthicema
re-
forms.
Mr. A, MILLS, as one of those w
introduction of the bill of the
confess lee was at a loss to uudersti.hera
IrGoollysedr.vronteendtfonir the
aled what
ime,
The
reperusoim)ceeseetactni
proceeding
had since occurred to pre
wouldda
no doubt
conic
un:bcilea eteot.friot was w too e'
with the determination then Durham
•
b
juc
the noble lord the member
ropriate upon the occasion of e
have been exceedingly arrniber for Huutiugdon (111 r. I'.
the motion of thehhiter
Baring), but in
Mills) was one of those who thought that
if they
be were
imperillingo
late. He (Mr. delay legislating upon this question they s
would
stheir Indian empire. (Bear.) And
t
part seeingthat the noble lord the member for
for his bad
abstained entirely from meddling with the
QuestionTier°o: of the local government of India, from inter.
fering with the authority of the Governor-General, and
with the question of domestic taxation in India, he, for
on, was prepared to support the measure of the noble
lord, It was because that measure was not general or
eiemprehensive, and not because it Vt a: a perfect solution
of the enormous problem to be solved, and he deter•
leieed to support it. But he must Key that he greatly
regr tted that circumstances had arisen to prevent the
proposal of the noble lard from continuing before the
[louse. He believed, however, that if they were now to
stop short, people in India would say they had etopped
el oat not because the mutiny in India was unquelled,
but because there was a mutiny unquelled in the House
of C immures. (Cheers and laughter.) It was not for him
to describe how the tnu'isier had arisen, or to account for
It ; but thee much he would :ay, that for the sake of the
leo lour and dignity of the House of Commons, it was of
paratu nit importance that they should not now stop
short in the course of legislation with reference to India.
(Hear.) For his part he must avow an intention to sap-
pert any Government that would ensure the proposal of
some system of government for India (luring
the present
session, (Cheer-.)Sir F. BARING differed with some who held a very
high position in the house and the country 14 regard t 3

this question. He could not understand why they might
not be permitted, in connection with hon. gentlemen on
the other side of the bonsa to advocate their opinions
were told it was not a party
question. _
uponespNo especially
oneas they
coulddoubt that it was one of the
most important subject. that had ever been brought for-
ward in that house. (Hear.) He was certain that his
noble friend was neither prompted by party feeling nor
animated by a spirit of faction in bringing forward this
irm tion, but that, on the contrary, in doing so he ex-
wesed not only his own sentiments but the convictions
of 0, great number of persons who entertained the
t doubts as to the expediency of proceeding at
with Indian legislation. Immediate legislation was
g:orl'e
not
sso
easy as some persons seemed to imagine, nor bad
they been hitherto so lucky in the result of their colonial
measures as to warrant the conclusion that it would be
wi„-e to proceed in this hurried manner to legislate upon
a subject of such vast importance as the future govern-
ment of India. He was warned by the late Chancellor
of the Exchequer not to speak disrespectfully of the wis-
dom of Parliament ; he did not wish to do so, but be
could not forbear calling the attention of the house to an
essay of the great philosopher and historian, Mr. Home,
who, in speaking of politics as a science, remarked that
• ..free Government always managed its dependencies
scores than did an arbitrary Government, and be con-
treated, not very complimentarily, the conduct of France
in _regard to its foreign dependencies with the conduct of
England in respect to Ireland. Mr. Home wrote before
the difficulties with Canada, and before it was found
thiit the best mode of governing a colony was to allow
hto govern itself. From the nature and constitutione an
of
the Indian mind, however, there must alwayshe asked,
b
arbitrary Government in India, n
was it a trivial thing to dovetail aandarbitrary Go.
varnment with a free constitution I H.
He speke. of the
house with great respect, and admired it in the highest
mee e
degree, but be was convinced, if the House of Commons
could not legislate in a manner satisfactory
pre ervation of
to Canada,
-
that legislation being consistentitc withonld b
not do so for India,
the principles of freedom.
the government of which,n
en.esarily involved totally
different principles.
Were the Government in a position
to advise the
e house with weight upon the Indian ques-
tionhad brought in a bill, they had abandoned
fits y
and they had now, at the suggestion of the noble lord
the member for the City of London, brought in these re-
solutions. He did rot complain of their taking that
course ; he had no charge of vacillation to bring against
the Government ; for he thought it might be fairly said
that they hai acted as they had done, not from any
change of mind, but from the difficulties of their position.
Tbey were driven to the course which they pursued, and
no One who heard the speech of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer the other night could entertain any doubt
whatever as to his real sentiments. He reiterated his
opinion that they bad better not legislate at all ; but if
they were determined to legislate, the bill be bad pro•
posed was the beet ; and he concluded neither with a
motion for non-legielatioa, nor in favour of a bill, but
for a committee upon resolutions. No member in the
house could be so young and so green as to suppose that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was satisfied, or that he
would have taken the course which he had if he was cer-
tain of that large majority upon ordinary questions which
gave to a government importance and real power.
" 0 that some power the gift would gie us,
To see ourselves as others see us."
He heard from every quarter what a precious mess the
House of Commons had got into— (laughter)—and would
anybody deny that that was the opinion of hon. mem-
bers themselves! The hon. gentleman opposite said that
it was for the honour and dignity of the house that they
should proceed to legislate. His (Sir F. Baring's) opinion
was, that it was for their honour and dignity, when they
made a mistake, that they should retrace their steps. He
was not an advocate for the East India Company, but he
thought it strange that, considering the many eminent men
the company bad produced people would be rather asto-
nithed, after some 70 or 80 years of government, that the
only compleinta against the system were that Leadenhall-
street and Cannon-row were some distance from each
other, that frequent messengers were requ'red, and a
good deal of money was spent in cab hire, and that those
were the only grounds on which the company was to be
destroyed.
Mr. M. GIBSON would not have ventured to address
the house, which he thought was ready for a division,
bad not the right hon. baronet taken upon himself to give
him such a very peculiar title, by calling him the father
of all mischief. (Laughter.) He never felt more gratified
in his life than when he had been instrumentil in that
piece of mischief, the destruction of tie Conspiracy to
Murder Bill. He was opposed to that bill, and took the
course which be thought was best to defeat it. He bad
been successful in accomplishing his object. The right
hon. baronet seemed to yearn after a species of dictator-
ship in that house. Now be (Mr. M. Gibson) did not
complain of Government having recourse to the advice
and opinion of Parliament. (Cheers.) He thought the
time was approaching when Parliament would more and
more advise Ministere, and Ministers dictate less to Par-
liament—(hear)—and it was a subject of great congra-
tulation to him to find the Government of the day willing
to take the tweise into its council,. He believed that if
the Government of the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton had taken the house more into its councils it would
not have fallen. He had heard the speeches in favour of
the motion now before the house, and he declared he had
not heard one good argument why they were not to
change the government of India—not to legislate at this
particular moment—it being at the end of the month of
April, and they having yet four months of the session
before them. There were no doubt legitimate reasons
for delay in reference to legislation upon this subject,
but those reasons had not been assigned in the present
instance. No man could say that it was not in their
power at the present moment to possess themselves of
all the information that could be desired upon the sub-
ject. By a reference to the voluminous evidence taken be-
fore the committee of 1852, cf which he was a member, all
the information necessary to lead the house to a deciei,,n
upon a legislative measure could be procured. He con-
curred in the propriety of the course suggested by the
noble lord the member for London, inasmuch as it would
give the house an additional stage for the consideration
of a subject of such importance and of so great and com-
plicated a nature as the present was. He therefore
thought that proceeding by resolution was the best pos-
sible course that could be devised under the circum-
stance.. He did not o ler it at all an evil that the
Government bad adopted a change in their course of
proceeding on this question in consequence of the sue-
gestion of the noble lord the member for London. H,-;
was the more fortified in his opinion that her Majesty's
Government had acted wisely from the fact announced
by the right hon. gentleman the late President of the
Boar 4of Control, that the noble lords the member for
London bad distinctly suggested the
seeding by way of resolution.
previous
propriety of pro
Pto the YintrodPuc•
tion of the measure on India by t'elate Government.
(Hear.) He would ask whe.her it wart not the object of
those who asked for delay to defeat the measure altoge
tber it they could, (Rear.) Jeremy Bentham
writer on political fallacies, said he never k ne'esaa6nreiant
stance in which delay in respect to any particular mea--
eure.of legislation was pressed, that it was not the inten-
tion of the parties who urged that course to defeat it they
could the measure altogether. The right bon. gentleman
the member for Portsmouth, amongst his other argu-
ments against legislation, used that wbich might be
termed the hobgoblin argument. (Laughter.) When
that right hon. gentleman could not convince their rea-
son he endeavoured to frighten them by all sorte of ter-
rors from the consideration of the question. He hoped
that there would be an early divi-ion upon the preposi-
tion, 'and that the house would immediately proceed to
the diece esion of the resolution, (Hear.)
Lord P4LMERSTON—Sir, I presume that as those
who sit upon this bench had the honour of first introduc-
ing a bill on this subject, the right hon. gentlemen who
sit on the opposite aide of the house are of opinion that we
should first express our intentions in regard to this mo•
Con. I can have no hesitation whatever in stating that
It is my intention to oppose the motion of the noble lord.
(Hear.) I entirely agree with the hon. member for Taun-
ton (Kr. A. Mills), that it would be roost inconvenient,
not only as regards the interests of the country ac con-
ikeeted with India, but with the honour and dignity of
Ibis house, if we were now to attempt to retrace our
steps, and to do nothing at all upon the subject. (Hear.)
The noble lord bases his motion on the ground of change
of circumstances. No doubt, sir, many circumstances
have changed since this question was first introduced to
the house in the present session. I am, for example, ad-
dressing this assembly from this side of the house instead I
of from the other. (Hear, and laughter.) That change of
circumstances may have its effects and its consequences;
but I cannot think that any such change of circumstances
can furnish ise wi h any reason fir not proceeding with
this question. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen may have
mere or less confidence in the existing Government. The ,
right hon. gentleman who has just eat down declared it
as his opinion that her Majesty's late Government had
fallen from inherent weakness, and that they would have
acted much better rf they had taken Parliament into their
councils. I may hers observe, in passing, that if the
right hon. gentleman would but look at the division lists
of the house, ho would fled that the late Government
had, generally speaking, as large majorities as any i'vli-
aistry could reasonably hope fer; such a fact implying
that Parliament was v ry much of the same opinion as
ourselves on general questions of legislation. (Hear.)
Sir, I will not enter into the question whetaer the course
now adopted by the present Government is the beet which
under the circumstances they could have takee. My
opinion undoubtedly is, that it wool] have been more fit-
ting for them, when they thought proper to wi hdraw their
particular bill upon India, to have brought in another bill
rather than to call on the House of Commons to proceed
by way of resolution. Bet, at the same time, looking at
things_ as they now are, I am pea, ct y ready to go into
cota. mittee on these resolutions, and to consider them
s o
with a sincere desire of making' them as consistent as
Possible with what
•appears to me to be sound legislation
epee the. ject.Cheers.) But Ido entreat tee
house to consider th
e e""quences cf acceding to the
motion of the noble lord,
regardsgm.A.eareher
for the
right hon. genoeman
a
F. Barinet,Portsmouthspeespeech
of
(tShi;
motion. of the nob's lore,l-'::(di'. tin favour the
this measure fer a
scason—it was not in support :flat? member
i for Hun-
tingdDr, who wacttd to put off. lee•staasttion to mother
y-ee. ; it was rather •
an argument aggal
oapne that
on this matter at any time. (near, hear 3nYllhgl" fun
my right hon. friend wilt excuse me if I forbear
ground
log arguments which I do not think meet the question
at present under our consi,:ention. S'r, the
upon which the present Government when they came
into office stated their determination on this subject Was
a souud and con- titutional one. The noble lord at the
bead of the Government stated that originally ha way
adverse to legislation at ibis time on th question.;
.hut
inasmuch as Parliament had, by a large majority,
India
.y,
recorded their oi:inion that leei-lation upon l
yea oeceeeery, Le tnought her Aiaje,?ty s Govermael.4
were fully justified in giving up their own notions on

the matter, in deference to the deliberate judgment of
this house. (Hear, bear.) Let the house now consider
what the effects would probably be of leaving India in
its present disturbed state under a system ot Govern-
ment condemned not only by one, but by two administra-
tions here, and not only by those administrations, but
by an immense majority of the House of Commons, as
well as by public opinion generally. Let us but consider
how weakened in its moral strength is the present Indian
government by all these circumstances, and bow hampered
it must be by its own doubt as to the duration of its
Authority. lam persuaded, sir, that the change from
the existing Indian government to the direct authority of
the Queen would have a salutary effect on the population,
38 well as upon the native mind of India itself. The
natives, in my opinion, would look with infioitely greater
respect and attachment to the direct government of the
Queen than they can ever be persuaded to look to the
government of a company of merchants, however indivi-
ivally respectable they may be. (Hen.) And as to she
effect upon the Indian array, I will venture to say that
there is not an officer or a man in that army who would
not feel prouder in being told that he was transferred
to the immediate service of the Queen than if he were to
continue in that of the East India Company. (Hear.)
Well, if that be the case, if the local army feel them-
-elves in a po-dtion of inferiority as compared with that
of the Queen's own army, surely that fact of itself is a
sufficient justification for the proposed legisla-ion.
(Hear.) But there is another consideration, which I
think slaou'd also have weight with us. The mutiny, hap-
pily, is now nearly suppressed. Those acts of severity,
and those measures incidental to the present state of
things, may happily soon be terminated. The period is
fast approaching when it will be the duty as well as the
interest of all governments that a system of clemency
instead of punishment should be pursued ; and that a
distinction should be made between those who have
timely surrendered to our authority, and the actual mu-
tineers who have been waging war against na to the last.
I say, then, that a change of system will come with
much naore grace and effect when it comes in the shape
of a direct act of the Sovereign of this country, than
from the present authorities in India. It would, I think,
he a most fortunate coincidence, if at the same time this
system of indulgence was commenced it was also an-
nounced that the Government at home had been now
changed, that the people of India are now placed under
the benevolent sway of the Sovereign of Eng!a,;(?, and
it is to that authority that they are henceforth to give
their allegiance. (Hear, hear.) Concurring entirely,
then, i❑ the opinion expressed, I believe the House of
Commons is prepared to come to an early division upon
this question. I have myself no doubt of the result of
that division ; I am sure that her Majesty's Government

share in the opinion I have expressed upon the motion
of the noble lord, and I am prepared to resist the motion
of my noble friend and go at once into committee for the
consideration of the resolutions. (Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY—Sir, I think I am bound on the
part cf her Majesty's Government Co acknowledge, in

the first instance, the perfect fairness and entire can-
dour in which this subject has been treated by the noble

ord who has made the motion now under consideration.
It must be evident to every one who heard him—what-
ever his own individual opinion may be on the question
—that he has not sought to bias their minds by an ap-
peal to ems influences, to give the subject a political
character, nor to view it as one upon which a party dis-
cussion might be taken ; but rather as a question involv-
ing the greatest and most momentous considerations that
could well be considered by a British House of C )m-
-snoop. But when I turn to the arguments of the noble
lord, I confess I am utterly unable to appreciate their
value. The arguments of the right hon. gentleman the
member fir Portsmouth Ido indeed understand. The
noble lord has toll us, not only in the tone and spirit of
his speech, but in express words, that this house is un-
fit to legislate upon this subject. He has said something
about the difficulty of substituting for an absolute go-
vernment like that of India a constitutional government
like that of England. There may be difficulties on our
part such as be describes, but surely those are not
difficulties which will be less in 1859 than they are in
1858. (Hear, hear.) If it be objectionable to legislate
now upon India, it will be equally so then. We have
been told of the great difficulties and perplexities that are
involved in any attempt to change the government of
India. Sir, no man who has considered this question
can, I think, deny that it is one of the most difficult and
most complicated that has ever been brought before
parliament. But I ask, are those difficulties and com-
plications such as will be gradually reduced by time ?
the India question one that will settle itself alone, or is
it not rather one which will cre ate an increase of per-
plexities and difficulties the longer it remains untouched ?
(Hear, hear.) We are toll that there are grave differ-
ences of opinion in this house upon the particuiar mea-
sure which we should adopt in regard to the future
government cf India ; and that those differences of
opinion establish a reason for not legislating at all upon
the question. Well, sir, I can only say that it legisla-
tion is to be postponed until there is something
like a unanimity of opinion amongst the leaders of
the various parties in this house, I think that we
shall have to wait a long time before such a
period has arrived. There was no such unanimity here
and agreement of opinion in the great debates of 1783,
when the then Board of Control was first intstituted,tand
the doble kcivernment of India was first established. The
two great parliamentary leaders at that time were at
issue upon the question. There was no unanimity of
opinion in 1E33, and certainly there was no g. eat agree-
ment of opinion in the discussions which took place on
this subject five years ago—discu,sions which occupied
tt is house more than, I believe, 20 nights. (Hear.) Well,
then, we are told that this is a question with which a
strong Government only can deal. Now the', I thick is
rather a delicate matter fir any one to touch upon.
is difficult-, in my opinion, to say what constitutes a
strong Government. An administration may be even
strong, in regard to its general policy, and yet may not
be able to influence the House of Commons to an equel
extent in regard to Indian legislation as to English ques-
tiene generally ; and fur this reason the Government that
is depending for its strength on the support of political
parties, can only expect that support when its mea-
sures are in accordance with the principles upon which
those political parties are formed. But with regard te
Ins!ian administration the case is somewhat different.
We have seen great differences of opinion expressed
in the debates that occurred two years ago on told sub-
ject. We have seen wide differecces of opinion expressed
arnengst those who, agreeing generally upon Eeglish
legislation, are utterly at variance upon the subject of
Indian politics. Ith nk, therefore, as a matter of argu-
rasnt, we are not justified in entertaining any such ob-
jection in reference to this imp eearit subject—namely,
tnat no Government who cannot command a decided
inajerity in this house has a right to deal with the Indian
question. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, we are told that
public opinion has not sufficiently declared itself. Now
what is meant by public opinion declaring itself upon
lodes 1 We know upon quettious of domortic policy
toast a very large cumber of persons out of doors gene-
rally take a warm interest, and that this house wi ely
follows, instead of leads, the general opinions. But
we must recollect tha% this Indian question does
not affect personally a very large number of persons out
of doors. There has not been beret fire, nor is there
likely to be hereafter, a strong pressure of public ,'pi-
nion upon any Government on this subject. There is no
doubt at present a very wide and great interest mani-
fested in regard to India, but that interest has been
created by the recent debates in this house and by the
recent eminences in India. If, however, we are to
judge the future by the past, that interest will be greatl)
diminished when those occurrences have passed away.
Bat the very fact that there is now a greater interest fslt
upon Indian subjects than there was two years ago, or
than there is likely to be two years hence, furnishes, in
y opinion, one of the strongest arguments why we
ought not to delay dealing with the question before us.
(Hear, hear.) Ido not think that any one who sat on
the committee of 1853, or who remembers how long
that committee sat—how great was the investigation it
entered into—the vast volumes wh ch had been Jail
before that committee fur reference—l do not think, I
repeat, that any one who recollects the debates of 1853,
how long they lasted, and how minutely the whole
details of this question wore considered, can now seri-
ously urge that tee need further Inquiry. I may be told,
sir, that many petitions upon this subj-ct have been pre-
sented to the House of Commons to which we are hound
to pay respect, and that some of those petitions pray for
further inquiry before we adopt any particular plan for
government of India. But what, I ask, is the meaning
of this prayer for further inquiry 1 When those petitions
pray fur further inquiry, they simply mean that the
House sf Commons should examine into the various
propositions that have been laid down to consider the
principles brought forward in those petitions, and so
having considered them to act upon them (Hear.) I
now wish to allude to what I consider to be the most
serious part of the question—l mean, the danger of un-
settling men's minds, and of creating disturbances in
India. I confess, sir, if I were the colleague of the
noble viscount opposite when, at the beginning of the
session, he proposed to introduce a bill upon the future
government of India, the danger of uneetling men's
minds is an argument which at that time would have
had considerable weight with me. But the case was
altered when that measure was laid before Parliament.
I will venture to remind the house that I was one of
those who supported the noble viscount in the division
which took place on the introduction of his bill. But
at the same time I am willing to admit that those who
took a mere despsnding view of the matter had fair
grounds for their argument that it was better not to
iuterfsre with the Indian administration until the reed-
-lon bad been suppressed. But the very same reason
which made hon. ni
for o
fearrutmi of disturbingsunwilli
unwilling to
the p
thedistuurbblicmind
gi7-
vernment of
India
think,loe
of
f tadducedhe
publicin
mfavourmind
off th that
immediate country l
legislation,
sal can
froml e
fact
bsing wholly unsettled in regard to this question. (Hear.)
Sir, I do not think that any one in this house can pre-
;.etsi to linori' real eff ct produced in the
native mind by the discussions which have taken place
in this house. I have heard it contended—and no
doubt the argument is plan-ible—that it will be a
great encouragement to those who are in arms against
°ur sway in India if they learn that the govern-
ment against which they are contending is depoeed
the authority at home. But I think, sir, it wi I have a
still tnore injurious effect in the minds of the people of
India if they hear, not that the power of the corcpa- y
taken away, hut that an attempt made by the Go-
c. eoru:n: oihtyadat
each
failed
aloeudynrtobreye to tike
ouB e t
ht3h e
company huts rit y
hfrom
etchtbe
le
oowerful friends at home, they were enabled to resist
g ein the part of her Ma-
,ay, sir, it we are seriously
ja2cy's G vernment i
(He
to eonsidee the effect wii7.) I
v1:1 our le
upop the Dative mind gislation may pro dues
, we must rtcollect that it is a