The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-22 00:00:00

sent. lam favourable to the principle of the amend-
ment proposed by the noble lord, but it seems to me
that its terms would not carry out that principle. It is
at once too wide and too narrow. It would exclude
many cases which the noble lord would wish to incuie,
and it would include many places which ought to be EX-
eluded. For instance, the parish of Chelsea, and other
large parishes in the neighbourhood of London not in-
cluded in any Parliamentary borough, would nut fall
within the terms of the amendment. On the other hand,
small Parliamentary boroughs, or parishes included in
such boroughs, where no objection had been made to
church-rates, would be deprived of the power of volun-
tarily rating themselves. I think the best plan is that of
my right hon. friend to which I have referred, and which
I believe would be found the boat and most satisfactory
solution of this long-vexed question. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BALL begged to assure the committee that if he
believed the abolition of church-rates would be injurious
to the Church of England he would not give his support
to any measure having that object. He, however, be-
lieved the removal of that ground of difference let weea
Dissenters and Churchmen would tend to augment the
numbers of the latter, and to diminish the number of
the enemies of the church. (Hear, hear.) The question
had now reached a stage in which it would be desirable
for the government to devise some fair and reasonable
motLod of settling it, and if there was a disposition to
relieve the consciences cif Dissenters he thought the lat-
ter ought not to refuse all concession on their parts.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PACKE, in reference to a remark which had
fallen from the right hon. baronet the member for Rad-
nor (Sir G. Lewis), cited the ease of a church situated
in a parish where a rate had been refused, which was
falling into decay, there being no means of raising the
necessary funds for its repair.
Mr. SPOONER observed that the effect of the amend.
merit would be to take away all power of voluntary
rating from large towns. It was true that in those large
towns many parishes had refused church-rates ; but a
time might come when the vestries would repent and
would desire to make rates for the maintenance of their
churches ; but the amendment would leave them no
power to do so.

Sir G. GREY —I cannot support the amendment of
the noble lord, although I agree with him in principle.
What I wish to do is to remove a sense of injustice
which exists in all cities and towns, without at the same
time causing a feeling of injustice in the minds of a large
body of members of the established church in the coun-
try. The amendment of the noble lord is sound in
principle, but if adopted its terms would not carry out
the principle. In nearly all large towns and cities of late
years district churches have been built, which are quite
independent of church-rates, those funds being applicable
to parish churches alone. I think the experience we have
had of those district churches teaches us that even if
church-rates are abolished in large towns the parish
churches will not be allowed to fall into decay. (Hear.)
I should advise the noble lord not to press his amend-
ment upon this occa,ion, but to consider whether upon
the next stage of the bill he cannot propose words which
would more effectually carry out the principle which he
has in view. I think the plan I suggested would be the
best mode of dealing with the matter, but lam not
wedded to my own words, and if he can devise any
arrangement by which the same end can be attained I
shall be happy to give it my support. (Fl ear, hear.)j
Mr. HENLEY thought he should be ustified in put-
ting to the hon. member for Birmingham a similar ques-
tion to that which the hon. gentleman himself had put
to the right hon. member for the University of Oxford,
and in asking him how far he considered the amendment
proposed would settle the question with him. At the
same time it had been clearly pointed out by the right
hon. gentleman (Sir G. Leeds) that the words of the
amendment would not carry out the oljeci; that the noble
lord had in view. He should be glad te know from the
hon. members who had charge of the bill whether the
passing of any such measure would make the slightest
approach to a settlement of the question ? He should
like to know also from the hon. member for Birmingham
whether any reciprocity would be held out on that side
I of the house such as would induce hon. members on his
(`dr. Henley's) side to assent to the general proposition
of the Bill ?

M. BRIG LIT said that the progress of the discussion
had shown so touch difference of opinion between the
supporters cf the bill and those who would stop at a
half-way house like this that it was scarcely worth while
discussing a proposition which seemed like one of those
straws that men clung to when they were going
down. (A. laugh.) Upon his side of the house such
a proposition would not be entertained for a moment.
(Hear, hear.) Movements like those of opposition to
church-rates were very contagious. If a pariah within a
borough were exempt, the adjoining parish without the
borough would become the focus of a much stronger
agitation. (Hear.) He doubted whether the town of
Braintree, which had immortalised itself by its opposi-
tion to this impost, would be exempted by the amend-
ment of the noble lord, which he should think met the
views of no human being who was honestly opposed to
church-rate 4. He would tell the right hon. gentleman
that the amendment would not mitigate the hc.stility
entertained to the impost on his side of the house.
(Cheers.)
Mr. GLADSTONE—The sentiment of the committee,
or at least a large portion of it, appears to be that there
is much substantial reason in the proposal of my noble
friend, but that the form in which it is presented to us is
inadtaissible. (Hear.) My right hon. friend (Sir. G.
Grey) embodied his views in a bill when ho was the
organ of the Government, but as an independent mem-
ber, ,there is, I think, in the propoSal of ray noble
friend much that might become the basis of an arrange-
ment of this question. (Hear.) At the same time Ido
not think that we have to-day made much progress to-
wards any practical result. Motions have been with-
drawn one after the other, and the progress of the de-
bate does not give my noble friend much encouragement
to take the sense of the committee upon his motion. The
proposition, however, is of great importance, because it
appears to have the sanction of the Government, and I
do not think it can ever be refused or extinguished by a
vote of this house. lam certain that my noble friend
will be doing a public service if he puts us in a condition
to give a positivejudgment upon his proposal. ([sear.)
There appears to me to be great
to say the least it offers a less hopeless prospect of a
practical result than any other plan that has been sub-
mitted to us. I do not think that a question of this
kind can be settled by a bargain in this house. (Hear,
hear.) But there is a spirit of moderation abroa l—
a desire for peace—and a disposition to f irego ex-
treme views where practical results can be at-
tained, which, independently of any bargain in this house
will insure practical success and permanency to any plan
which appears to be founded in moderation and good
sense. (Rear, hear.)

Sir J. TRELAWNY must adhere to his principle,
and could not agree to the amendment.
Lord R. CECIL, having met the usual fate of those
eh attempted to reconcile opposite parties, and hating
drawn down upon himself the combined censure of the
bon. member for Birmingham and the hon. member for
North Warwickshire, had no alternative but to with-
draw his amendment. (Hear, hear.)
The amendment was then withdrawn.
On clause 1, declaring that from and after the passing
of the Are; no chureb--ate shall be made or levied in any
parish in England or Wales,
Ur. LYGON moved that the Chairman report pro-
gres,. (Cries of " Hear, hear," and "Divide.")
Mr. WIGRAII (who rose amid calls for a division)
thought that the motion was a reasonable one, because
if the clause was passed church-rates would be abolished
throughout thm country.
Mr. MALINS (who was greeted with cries of "Oh!"
and " Divider) reminded the house that he had never
yet addres ed it upon the subject of church-rates.
(Laughter.) He wished to see the question settled, but
it was in vain to attempt to maintain the present law,
and some compromise, it was clear, must be entered
into. The proposal of his noble friend would not settle
the question, and the suggestion of the right hon. baronet
(Sir G, Grey) that he should reconsider the subject, and
make a proposal at a future stage, seemed to be worthy
of his noble frien'i's consideration.

Lord J. RUSSELL—As the house has been favour
able to the principle of the mea=ure, I think it is on•y
fair to the proposer and supporters of the bill that we
should divide to-day upon this clause, which contains
the principle of the bill. (Cheers.) I am ready to
accept the clause for mpelf, and I think it fair that we
should come to a division upon it. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I c in-
cur with the noble lord. It appears to me that•there is
sufficient time to come to a division to-day, and that
would be the fairest, as I think upon refiaction it would
be the most satisfactory, ccurAe to all parties. (Che..re.)
The committee then divided—
For reporting progress
Against it
Majority against reporting progress --242
When toe numbers were announced the clock pointed
to 10 minutes to 6. No division upon the first clause
eould therefore take place, and further proceedings upon
the bill were consequently necessarily adjminecl.
WAYS AND NIEANS.

Oa the inotiOn4 the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, the house resolved itself into committee of
ways and means, when a res elution was agreed to au-
thorising the r lising of a sum, not exceeding 2,000,000/.,
on the issue of Exchequer bonds. A bill founded on the
resolution was afterwards brought in and read a first
time.
The Excise Duties Bill was also read a first time,
S r E. ICERRISON brought in a bill on County
Management.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE brought in a bill to amend the
Patar:t Law Amendment Act (1852).
Toe houe adjourned at six o'clock.

REGIMENTAL ESTABLIBLIMENTS.—The estimated total
charge of the regimental eetabliebments of her Maje,ty's
lacd forces at home and ah.-oad from the let April, 1858,
t) the 31st March, 1559, is 4,259,8881., including
762,1741. for the pay and allowances of 222,238 men
of all ranks, 93,0241. for annual allowances to field cffi-
ceN, captains, and riding masters, 34,572/. for agency,
and 371,3431. for cloLiiing,
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