The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-12 00:00:00

They could not inquire into th's state of things 'under the
present system ; and was it not worth while then to have an
inquiry as to what the state of things really was. ( Efear4)
He did not pretend to say what that system should be. The
right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakiugton) had been taunted with
a desire to carry his previous measures into effect. He
could not think this was handsome or liberal towards the
right honourable baronet, but he had no doubt that when
the right honourable baronet had all the facts before him,
and saw the disposition of Parliament, ho would not be
bound by his original propositions, but would adopt that
course which the general disposition of Parliament might
sanction. The honourable member for Staffordshire spoke
of middle school education, and said there ought to be
an inquiry into that subject, because persons in our middle
schools were not receiving so good an education as in the
poorer schools. He (Lord Jon Russell) admitted that
that education should be improved, but he did not suppose
that grants would be made by Parliament to persons who
had the means of educating their children, but they might
be able to send their sons to grammar schools, according
to the original intention of the charitable trusts, and
which were capable of great improvement. If honourable
gentlemen would inquire into that subject they would find
that it only required a very slight alteration in the law to
enable the commissioners of charitable trusts to effect this
object. He had the pleasure of carrying the Charitable Trusts'
Bill through Parliament, and he believed the Charity Com-
missioners were fully competent for their duties. The Chan-
cellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Baines)was one of them,
and if he were entrusted with a bill, having the full confi-
dence of Parliament, everything could be done that was
needed. He knew the chief commissioner was very anxious
to have powers, by means of which great benefits could be
conferred. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Henley) had said
that in every scheme he (Lord J. Russell) had proposed he
had insisted at least on a knowledge of the Bible being com-
municated to the children. He thought it would be a very
great misfortune if, for the purpose of putting au end to the
jarring of different religious sects, any system of secular
education were established in which religion should not be
made the foundation of all teaching. (Hear.) He could not
believe that mere moral teaching would bo efficacious, and he
did not thick that moral teaching in this country indepen-
dent of the Bible would be anything but adverse to the Bible.
(Cheers.) He did not think it would be any use to appoint a
commiision to inquire into half time or anything of the kind,
and he hoped the right hon. barcnet would not submit to any
such mutilation. As to the expense, he thought it would be
very well employed in the commission, to whose investiga-
tions he believed every squire and clergyman in the country
would render the fullest assistance.
Mr. BRISCOE said he had listened to the debate from the
commencement, and he hoped the right hon. baronet would
not consent to the amendment proposed, for that would de-
prive the motion of its entire value. It would certainly ren-
der it insufficient for the object the right hon. baronet had in
view. He quite agreed with the noble lord the member for
the city of London that a secular system of education would
never meet the wishes of the people of this country. He
should not give his vote for the resolution except in, its original
form.

Sir J. PAKINGTON, in reply, said he had not said one
word about compulsion, but had sought to show that the
grants at present made for the purposes of education did not
reach the lower portion of the population. Nor was he an
advocate of the secular system. On the contrary, he did not
think that any system of education would be satisfactory
which did not embrace religious teaching. He believed that
if religious differences could be got rid of, the secular system
would speedily fall. Whilst wen were quarrelling upon points
of religion, a vast amount of irreligion was growing up. He
know tiatt upon this particular question he was placed in the
difficulty of being at variance with many of those friends with
whom he usually acted, but he could not understand the
middle course proposed by the Vice-President of the Board of
Privy Connell, (Hear, he tr.) He thought it would be better
to abandon the motion altogether, than to prosecute the in-
quiry ineffectually. Much remained for inquiry, but after
the expression of opinion on the part of the Government, he
did not think it would be advis tble to press his motion. (Nr,
no.) But he suggested to tho Vice-President of the Pri.vy
Council that perhaps the best course would be to let tYie re•
solution stand thus : That an humble address be presionted to
her Majesty, that she would be graciously pleased to issue a
oommission to inquire into the present state of ):,opular edu-
cati min England, and consider and report Vt'aat measures,
if any, ought to be taken for the spread of Round and cheap
elementary education to all classes of thel,,eople. (Hear.)
Mr. COWPER said that this alteration would meet the
views of the Government.
_ _

The SPEAKER read the original 'motion and Mr. Hadfield's
amendment.
Lord PALMEPSTON hoped tho latter woul 1 ho with-
drawn, and that the house would accept the resolution in its
altered form.

Mr. HENLEY could not accept the alteration.
Mr. HADFIELD having withdrawn his amendment, the
original resolution was withdrawn.
The house then divided on the resolution in its altered
firm

For tho amendment llO
Against it
Majority
—6l
SAVINGS BANK COMMITTEE.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, the members of the Savings Bank Committee
were nominated.

CHURCH RATES.
Sir J. TRELAWNY moved for leave to bring in a bill for
the abolition of church rates. He understood that the
Government did not object to the introduction of the bill
—(hear, hear, and a laugh)—and would reserve his observa-
tions until the second reading.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
GAOLS AND HOUSES OF CORRECTION BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this (Mr.
Bowyer s) bill,
Mr. SPOONER objected " on the ground that the bill had
only been delivered to members that morning. He demurred
to the power which the bill gave to ministers of all denomina-
tions visiting prisoners at all times, and of interfering with
the existing prison regulations.
Mr. KINNAIRD urged the postponement of the bill.
Mr. BOWYER said that the bill lead been twice brought in
with the consent of the Governragnt, and the simple object
of it was to secure the prisoners the spiritual consolation of
ministers of their own religion. Safeguards were introduced
for investing the visiting justices with every necessary re-
striction.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that this
bill must practically be considered a now bill—(hear, hear,
from Mr. Spooner)—and as the Home Secretary was noi pre-
sent, he suggested the postponement of this stage of it.
(Hear, hear.)
The debate was adjourned.
SIR HENRY AND LADY HAVELOCK'S ANNUITY

BLL.
The bill was read a third tlme and passed.
CHURCH RATES,
Sir J. TRELAWNY brought up his bill, which was read a
first time ; to be read a second time on Wednesday, the 17th.
The house adjourned at ono o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FEB. 11.
EDUCATION.

Motion made, and question proposed, "That an humble
address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be
graciously pleased to issued a commission to inquire into the
present state of popular education in England, and whether
the present system is, or is not, sufficient for its object ; and
to consider and report what changes, if any, are required for
the extension of sound and cheap elementary instruction to
all classes of the people."—Amendment proposed, at the end
of the question, to add the words "and particularly whether
it is desirable that the course of education should, in deference
to tho principles of religious liberty, bo restricted to secular
instruction ; or whether religious instruction should be added,
and what course of religous instruction can be supplied with-
out violation of the rights of conscience of her Majesty's sub-
jects ; and that all classes and denominations be entitled to
be heard in this inquiry."—Question proposed, " That those
words be there added."—Amendment, and motion, by leave,
withdrawn. Motion made and question pu', " That au
humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she
will be graciously pleased to issue a commission to inquire into
the present state of popular education in England ; and to
consider and report what _ measures, if any, are required for
the extension of sound and cheap elementary instruction to
all classes of the people."—The house divided; Ayes, 110;
Noes, 49.

ATMS—IIk
Adams, W. H. Garnett, William Pinney, Col.
Akroyd, E. Greer, Samuel Pritchard, J.
Bagwell,Vohn Gray, Captain Pugh, D.
Ball, E Grey, R. Puller, Christopher
Baring, Sir F. Griffith, C. Itaynham, Viscount
Baring, T. G. Hall, Sir Benjamin Rebow, J.
Baxter, W. Haubury, Robert Ricardo, 0.
Beecroft, G. Handley, 11. Ridley, George
Black, Adam Harris, J. D. Roupell, W.
Bramston, T. W Hatchell, John Ru.shout, Capt. G.
Briscoe, J. Hayter, W. Russell, Lord J.
Buchanan, Walter Heneage, Geo. F. Russell, A.
Buller, J. W. Hodgson, William Rust, James
Buxton, 0 Hopwood. John Salisbury, Enoch
Byng, G. H. C. Horsmaa, B. Seholefield, W.
Caird, J. Jervoise, Sir J. Shelley, Sir J.
Campbell, R. J. It. Ker, Richard Sibthorp,lMajor
Clay, James King, L. Stapleton, John:,
Clive, R. King. Edward Sykes, Colonel
Close, M. Kinglake, A. Thompson, General
Collier, R. P. Kinnaird, A. Townshend, J.
Cowper, W. F. Knatchbull-Huguessen Trelawny, Sir J.
Cross, R. A. Langton, H. G. Turner, J. A.
Dalglish, R. Lewis, Sir G. C. Vansittart, W.
Davey, R. Lopes, Sir M. Villiers, C.
Duff, M. Mackie, J. Vivian, 3. C.
Dunbar, Sir W. Mangles, C. Western, S.
Duncan, Viscount Melgund, Lord Whitbread, S.
Edwards, Henry Mellor, John Wickham, H.
Elton, Sir A. H. Mitchell, T. A. Williams, W.
Evans, T. W. Morris, D. Willyams, E.
Ewart, W. Paget, Lord C. Wilson, J.
Farquhar, Sir M. Palmerston, Viscount Wingfield, R.
Finlay, A. Pease, Henry Worsley, Lord
Fitzgerald, J. Pechell, Sir G.
hie, rolne a.
F.
rP
ee
ve le,
nSs iery It,iscount Pakington, Sir J. Wyld, James
V
TELLERS.
Fortescue,
Forster,
C
Fox, W. J. Philips, R. Stanley, Lord

_
NOES-49.
Adderley, C. B. Forde, Colonel Nicoll, D.
Ayrton, A. Gard. It. North, Col. J.
Bennet, Capt. P. Hadfield, George Packe, C.
Bentinck, G. Hope, Alexander Philipps, J.
Blakemore, T. Hotham, Lord Pilkiugton, J.
Bowyer, G. Kendall, N. Price, W.
Bridges, Sir B. Kerahaw, J. ltepton, G.
Calcraft, J. Knight, F. Richardson, J.
Chariesworth,,T. C.D. Langton, W. G. Sclater, George
Child, Smith Laslett, W. Scott, Captain
Churchill, Lord A. Liddell, 11. G. Spooner, R.
Collins, T. Locke, J. Wigram, Loftus T.
Cox, W. Lygon, Hon.F. Woodd, B.
Crook,:,T. M'Cann, J.
Diliwyn, L. L. Maguire, J. F.
Dobbs, W. C. Miller, Stearn°
Emlyn, Viscount Mowbray, J. It.
Fenwick, 11. - Napier, J.

TELLXIS.

Henley, J.
Hardy, G.

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