The Sun.
London, England, 1867-07-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 16, 1867.

(2,RAND BALL, in HONOUR of the VISIT of
the BELGIANS to ENGLAND, at the AGRI-
CULTURAL HALL, Islington, on THURSDAY NEXT,
the 18th July, 1867.
The BALL will commence with the performance of a
Grand March, by Mon. A. Gits, the Belgian composer,
entitled "Leopold Second Marche Triomphale," dedicated
by permission to his Majesty the King of the Belgians.
During the Illumination of the Groat Fountains the
Band of the Grenadier Guards will play a Grand March,
entitled "The Welcome," composed expressly for this oc-
casion by Herr Meyer Lutz.

HEATH AND BRECON RAILWAY.—
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that an EXTRA-
ORDINARY GENERAL MEETING of the Shareholders
of the Neath and Brecon Railway Company will be holden
at the CASTLE HOTEL, Brecon, on WEDNESDAY, the 31st
instant, at 12 o'clock at Noon, to authorise tho putting in
force all or any of the powers conferred by the " Neath
and Brecon Railway (Additional Powers) Act, 1867."
(Signed) W. L. BANKS, Chairman.
D. HOWELL MORGAN, Secretary.
1, Westminster Chambers, Victoria-street,
London, S.W., 15th July, 1867.

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his visit to the country was to 'be paid for by the heavily
taxed people of India ? (Hear, hear.)
THE ABYSSINIAN. PRISONERS.

Colonel SYKES asked the Secretary of State for India
whether there was any and what foundation for a rumour
circulating in Bombay that troops had been told off for an
expeditio❑ into Abyssinia ?
Sir S. NORTIICOTE said there was no truth in the
rumour; no troops had been told off; and ho had to in-
form the hon. member that a correspondence was going on
which he hoped would lead to tho release of the Abyssi-
nian captives. (Lim-, hear.) Ho had, however, in a con-
fidential communication to India, asked what could be
done in the event of force betoming necessary in that
direction.

then a duty to take into consideration all the prevailing
opinions, and even the fears and it may be ignorance. Go-
vernments must make concessions here and there, and
offer what seems best to meet the average sentiment of the
nation. Even if the Government of Lord Derby had only
repeated the proposal of Lord John Russell's measure under
Lord Palmerston to give a LEO franchise to the counties
and .D 3 to the boroughs, I should have given it all my
support ; but this would not have altered my opinion of
the necessity of a lai ger extension. lam ono of those who
have been subject to every kind of—what shall I say ?
abuse would be a mild word. I have been charged with
wishing to urge on Parliament and the country measures
of a pernicious character—to "Americanise our institu-
tions," as it has been phrased. I have no wish to go very
fast. My own impression is that in political changes, in
all countries, it is an advantage to the country that these
should be made by steps rather than all at once. I have
always acted on that principle. I have not condemned the
Government and a measure because it did not go all the
length I wished. I have been willing to support them in
every step in that direction, and I have always made
allowance for a Government that made any step at all.
Mr. GRAVES only uttered the universal opinion of his
constituents at Liverpool, including both Liberals and
Conservatives, when ho declared that the bill was a fair
and just settlement. Ho denied that Mr. Lowe was the
exponent of the opinion of any portion of the public, or
that he represented any ono besides himself, and expressed
his gratitude to the Government and the Chancellor of the
Exchequer for so generously fulfilling their pledges.

Mr. GOLDS HID believed the measure would bo satis •
factory to the country, and had sufficient confidence in the
new constituencies to think that they would make a good
use of their privileges, and thus refute the sinister prog-
nostications of the member for Caine.

Mr. GORST was of opinion that a largo section of the
Conservative party did not approve of the bill, and had
voted for it only because they considered that some mea-
sure must be passed. But he anticipated that those of
them who went down to their constituents in the false
cloak of Liberalism would be stripped and rejected, and
that those who had consistently adhered to their Conser-
vative principles would be forgiven their opposition to the
bill.

Mr. COWEN did not share in the alarms of Mr. Lowe,
and had no doubt that the new constituencies would exer-
cise the franchise with judgment, care, and honesty.

Mr. B. HOPE pronounced the bill the most democratic
that had ever entered the mind of any Government to pro-
pose, and argued that, after determining to widen the
franchise, the first thing they ought to have done was to
have settled the boundaries of the boroughs, for .on that
foundation rested the permanence of the superstructure.
Mr. D. SEYMOUR, who had supported the bill of the
late Govornmeut, owned that he preferred that which was
now before the house.

Mr. BARROW pointed out one or two defects in detail,
and urged that a new redistribution scheme was imminent.

Lord ELCIIO vindicated the course which had been
pursued by the independent members of the house on the
subject of Reform, but whilst declarieg his preference for
Lord Derby's bill of 1859, accepted the measure on the
table as supplying a safer and sounder resting place than
anything else after giving up the £lO franchise.
Mr. OSBORNE did not question Lord Elcho's indepen-
dence, but he did question big belonging to the Liberal
party. Indeed, he did not believe there were twenty men
on that side of the house who coincided with him. Every
dog, however, had his day, and the noble lord had had his
Day. And the men who last year were the nucleus of a
Conservative party, and were designated the party of the
Cave: what had become of them ? Like their great under-
taking, the Day newspaper, they were in bankruptcy.
Like the builders of the Tower of Babel, there was confu-
sion of tongues among them, and they were dispersed on
the face of the earth. As to the bill and its paternity, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was no doubt its putative
father; but he had stolen it, and, treating it as the gipsies
treated stolen children, ho had disfigured it, in order to
make it pass for his own. The real author of the measure
was, in fact, Mr. Bright. True, the band that brought in
the bill was the hand of Lord Derby, but the voice was the
voice of John Bright, of whom the great Conservative
party were no more than the votaries and followers. llis
view of the effects of the measure was that it would lead
to a la►ge expenditure on the part of the candidate, and a
larger consumption of beer by the voter. But this he
hoped, that in the place of "Register, register," the c-y
would hereafter bo " Educate, educate." Fur they might
rely upon it that they could not .Americanise their institu-
tions, so far as extending the suffrage was coucnued,
without copying other things from America, and especially
in the matter of educating the people.
Mr. SANDFORD taunted Ministers with inconsistency,
remarked that nothing was more easy than to attain suc-
cess and maintain the semblance of power if they wore
only willing to pay the price, and talked of an ignoble
tenure of office being dearly purchased by an abandonment
of principle. _ _

Mr. DOULTON charged tho mass of tho Liberal party
with having been actuated by factious motives and a desire
for place in the course thoy had pursued wi h reference to
the bill.

Mr. NEWDEGATE had for a considerable number of
years given his support to the second reading of every
comprehensive Reform Bill, because he had seen measure
after measure passed which had infringed the principles of
the constitution. He said, therefore as a revolution seemed
to be going on, let us have it in due order after a Reform
Bill. If those groat changes are to be made, let the people
have a full and fair representation, and let these changes
be their own act through their representatives.
Lord E. CECIL entirely concurred in the views of Mr.
Lowe, and condemned the bill on the ground that it would
perpetuate bribery, increase the influence of wealth, aqd
eventually lead to manhood suffrage and electoral districts.
In short, there was nothing Conservative, no element of
permanence, in it.
Mr. LAING put no faith in the prognostications of evil
which the house had listened to that night, and therefore
accepted the bill the more cheerfully. True, ho did not
shut his eyes to the fact that there was some danger;
nevertheless, he had confidence in the socialinstitutions of
the country, and in the spirit of loyalty which animated
the people.

Mr. SELWIN-IBBOTSON differed from his colleague,
Lord Eustace Cecil, in the opinion ho had expressed of the
bill, and was convinced that ho had acted in accordance
with the wishes of his constituents in giving it his support.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who was
received with cheers, said :—The debate this evening com-
menced with what may be described as two very violent
speeches. (Hear.) That is to say, speeches very abusive
of the measure bof ore us, and very abusive of the Mi-
nisters who have introduced it. (Laughter.) lam more
anxious to vindicate the measure than to defend the Go-
vernment; but it necessarily happens with questions of
this character, which have occupied the attention of Parlia-
ment for a long term of years, that it is perhaps impossible
to distinguish the measure from the Ministry in observa-
tions of that character. So much depends upon personal
conduct and engagement, and so much depends upon the
necessity of time and of the temper of the country when
the Ministry is called upon definitely to act, that it is per-
haps impossible to separate in the remarks which I have
to offer to the House a consideration of the conduct of the
Government from the nature of the bill which we now
ask theni to read a third time. It is very easy for the
noble lord the member for Stamford (Lord Cranborne),
while he talks of a question which has occupied the Mien-
, tion of Parliament for more than fifteen years, to quote
some ambiguous expression which was used at the be-
ginning of those fifteen years by Lord Derby, and even to
quote some small passage of a speech made by myself in
the year 1866. But I think that the house on both sides
will feel that to arrive at a just judgment of the conduct
of public men and of the character of the measures which
they propose, it is necessary to take larger and fuller
views—(a laugh)—and that measures of this importance
and the conduct of those who recommend them, should not
bo decided upon by the quotation of a speech made in
1852, or a passage of remarks made in 1866. I accept the
challenge made by the noble lord, and take the very term
he has fixed upon as a test of our conduct and policy. I
will throw my vision back for these 15 years to 1852. When
we were called to the responsibility of administration the
question of Parliamentary reform was rife. In 1849, and
1850, and 1851 it occupied the attention of Parliament, and
,
in 1852, when wo were sitting in opposition. ThFref
when we acceded to office in 1852, although the question
not one which men responsible for the conduct eft of
was one
affairs
would have deemed it necessary to deal, yaitet
upon which it was absolutely necessary Itvihitohea
should have some definite conclusion.
after we acceded to office Mr. Hume breouoohnt
tfloirowsair,idritthine
question. The Cabinet had to decide,
wasp
the organ to
which they would meet the motion.
ent on the subject, and
express the opinions of the Gov
I stated that it was their uuaini
the neglect to give a duo
nt3ir:us opinion that the great
blot in the Act of 1832, name y,
ought to bo
proposed,
share of representation to to
IwBosrBkainLenlaistseNsv,as
remedied. (Hear, bear.)
in the Cabinet of Lord Derby,
of household suffrage. 11, that the borough franchise
should he based on the principle
is true that the proposition was not adopted, but the reason
that it was not adopted was because
it was felt that such a
settlement would.
.not then receive the support of the coun-
try. It is now said that wo have brought forward a mea-
sure stronger than the ono wo opposed. But even if that
be the case it is no argument against the measure, if it be
one adapted to the circumstances of the times. (Hoar,
hear.) There had been for a considerable time a favourite
policy of reducing the borough franchise to a curtain
amount, the consequence of which would have beenre ht,ia t
a favoured portion of the working classes, w
spoken of in tams of eulogy, would be andomwiteted to the

PRICE-- 43.
STAMPED sd.

possession of a vote on the implied understanding that they
were to form a sort of Preetorian guard to the inidlle class,
and act as a barrier against other portions of the working
classes obtaining the franchise. Bat that was a policy
which we always opposed, and we hold that it would be
better to admit all Oho working classes, relying on their
(sympathy with the political institutions of the country,
than to raise up a favoured class who would become the
critics rather than the supporters of those institutions.
Hear, hear.) Wo retained the convictions which we held
in 1859, and if wo deviated from thorn it was only because
we believed that it would be impossible to come to any
solution without a compromise, and that there was no
resting place untilyou came to household suffrage. Upon suc-
ceeding to office last year we found it was absolutely ne-
cessary to deal with this question ; and although reproaches
have been cast upon us for a change of opinion, I confi-
dently appeal to the general tenour of our policy and to
the speeches I have made, wherein I stated there was
nothing to disqualify the Conservative party from dealing
with the question. We considered the question only in
reference to the fair requirements of the country, but being
in office with a large majority against us, and that Minis-
ters of all colours of politics had failed to deal with it suc-
cessfully, and believing that another failure would be not
only fatal to the Conservative party, and most dangerous
to the country, and bolfeving that it was only by a frank
communication of ideas that we could arrive at a settle-
ment, we took the house to counsel with us. (Laughter.)
It was in harmony with this view that I placed the resolu-
tions upon the table ; and although you ridiculed them,
your subsequent conduct has proved your sneers were mis-
placed, for it was by your frank and cordial co-operation
the present result has been accomplished. (Cheers.) The
noble lord the member for Stamford said that the ten con-
ditions imperiously dictated by the right hon. member for
South Lancashire have been obsequiously accepted by us.
Tho abandonment of the dual vote imperiously demanded
by the right hon. gentleman was obviously given up. But
the dual vote was given up a fortnight before the impori•
ous dictation. (No, no.) Another "bristling security"
referred to by the noble lord was the two years' residence ;
but so far from giving that up obsequiously, wo divided
the house, and were beaten by a large majority, several
Conservatives having left the house, while others only
voted for us under protest, so that, instead of the Govern-
ment leading the party, the party were in advance of the
Government. (Laughter.) Another security was the county
franchise. The Government adopted a £l5 rating franchise;
an hon. gentleman opposite proposed £lO, and resolutions
were forwarded to us by the country party to make a
compromise. Then came another point, that of the com-
pounder. It is true that the right hon. gentleman oppo-
site objected to our plan, but his proposal was not the ar-
rangement which now exists in the bill, but a hard line of
£5 rating, which would have entirely emasculated the bill.
It is not necessary to go into the securities of the fancy
franchises, for the moment the house adopted a lodger

franchise all necessity for them ceased. (Hear, hear.)
When 'remind the. house that there have been 26 consider-
able divisions, in eighteen of which the member for South
Lancashire has voted against the Government—these may
have been some of the successful, though hardly the im-
perious dictaticins of which we have heard so much to-night.
(Cheers.) It cannot be said that those securities with
which the measure bristled were given up at the bidding of
the Opposition. (Cheers.) The noble lord says that by
giving these ton points I have altered the whole condition
of the bill. Is that true ? I maintain, on the contrary,
that the bill is in harmony with the general policy we have
always maintained. (Laughter and cheers.) You have had
a thousand plans—£B, £7, all sorts of pounds - all this year
you have come down to £5, and the question we had to
consider was, whether we were to accept a line of £5 or
adhere to the convictions of 1859 that there is no safe rest-
ing place but in a rating household franchise. (Cheers.)
The question would then arise, is there greater danger from
the numbers that would come in under household suffrage
than the 300,000 or so at a£s rating ? We think the dan-
ger would be less, and that the feeling produced would be
more national. Instead of a Praetorian guard set aside with
peculiar privileges, you will have a greater chance of touch-
ing the popular heart and evoking the national sentiment.
(Cheers.) As regards the question of distribution, I think
the proposal a wise and proper one, and I believe will be
satisfactory to the country. It has been modified to some
extent on principles which I do not believe; but on the
whole the policy is ono that I have, on the part of the Con-
servative party for nearly twenty years, impressed on
this house. Though bitter words have been uttered too
often, and especially to-night, there has been, on the
whole, a greater absence of party feeling and management
than has ever been exhibited in the conduct of a great
measure. The right hon. gentleman is not a prophet, but
he has indulged in the most direful vaticinations. He says
that everything is ruined, and he begins with the House
of Lords. It is not, he says, of the slightest use, and what
will happen when this bill passes ? (Laughter.) My only
opinion is, that if the House of Lords is in the position
described at present, the passing of this bill would do it a
groat deal of good. (Laughter, and cheers.) But what the
right hon gentleman says is most terrible is the treachery.
I want to know when did the treachery begin ? (Laughter.)
Ho thinks the measure of Parliamentary reform is treachery
in consequence of what took place last year. I am inno-
cent of any knowledge of those assemblages and councils
of which he has spoken. If thew was a compact last year
that no measure of Parliamentary reform was to pass—if
the proposition of a measure of Parliamentary reform is an
act of treason, then the noble lord the member for Stam-
ford and his friends are as guilty of treason as ourselves.
(Cheors.) I should have supposed the right hon. gentle-
man would have weighed his words a little more, and that
when he talked of treachery he would have had some hard
and straight line to toll us where the treachery commenced.
But the right hon. gentleman throws no light on the sub-
ject. He has made a speech which reminds me of an in-
spired schoolboy's theme. (Laughter.) He says the people
of England must be educated, no matter what the quality
of the education, if there is only quantity. (Laughter.)
As he seems to be somewhat at a loss to know what may
be his lot in the new Parliament, I should recommend him
to be the "schoolmaster abroad." (Loud laughter, and
cheers.) I should think, with his great powers of classical
and historical illustration, ho would soon clear the minds
of the new constituencies of all " perilous stuff," and
render them as safely Conservative as he could de-
sire. (Laughter.) The victims of Cheroncea, died
for their country, and dying, expressed their pride
that their blood was shed in such a sacred cause ; but the
right hon. gentlethan takes this opportunity absolutely of
announcing the conditions on which he is ready to join the
vanquishers who have brought him to such disgrace and
suffering. (Laughter.) He has given us a programme of
all the revolutionary measures he detests, but, in conse-
quence of our measure, is prepared to support. He has
concluded his attack on us, accusing us of treachery, by in-
forming us he is going to act in favour of measures he has
hitherto opposed in this house, though I believe he has
supported them in another place, and that he will recur to
those Australian politics which rendered him once so fa-
mous. (Laughter.) He told us that in the conduct we were
pursuing there was infamy. The expression was strong.
(Laughter.) But I never quarrel with these sort of things
—(laughter)—and never disturb on that ground aora.
gentle-
man, especially when he is approaching his peroration.
(Laughter.) According to the right. hon. gentleman, tion
conduct is infamous, because in office we aresupporting
measuresand
which
we h parliamentaryave
I :use to accept
of the measures we are recommending the .
we
sting you to Banco
did fooprpomsoefd.whicfh ddiissaaPpPprro°vve°
adnidd
usoantc
btailotnevteo-tnhiegmht,eaosuurrocownedauroct
risoqouboaisetctinoolonassble_.
sure that can be passed under the circumstances,
ens• But what does the
tion is, on the whole, the wisest encl
say our conduct would b:iniknfo7b-is-. own conduct, when,
right hon. gentleman t. alrYwould
would not reduce
Derby in 1859, because they he was one of the most
having assisted in turning out the Government of
borough
frLouogrhd
activef ra aeh i e—
managerslhare
Palmerston brings forward a bill of
—be accepts office in the
1860, and Lord Pa
the right hon. gentleman
year con, which
liamentarY re` 'doh ho more than disapproved
par eason. totri,ue
utterly disapprovedked his political opponents to defeat it?
of
oaf." w
of, because he .
) Tsh-is is the gentleman, the right hon. gen- ,
,cif„e,a„r„' hear.
talks of infamy. (Cheers.) The prognosti-
cations warnings
know that they
c"ac.tiOns' of v evilh°
n` the prophecies of the right hon. gentleman I treat in
- another spirit. I do not think that the country is iu
danger. I think that England is safe in the race of mon
who inhabit her; that she is safe in something more pre-
cious than her accumulated wealth—in her accumulated
experience ; that she is safe in her national character, in
her fame, in the tradition of a thousand years, and in that
glorious future which I believe awaits her. (Loud cheers.)
The SPEA.KEIt put the question : " That the bill be
read a third time," and there were only two "Noes,"
which were drowned in a chorus of "Ayes" and cries of
"Agreed."

Sir P. GOLDSMID asked a question, and the SrEAKEit
replied, both being inaudible, and
The bill was then read a third Limo and passed, amidst
loud cheers from the Ministerial benches and some of the
benches below the gangway on both sides.
The Courts of Law Officers (Ireland) Bill as amended
was considered.

The report on supply was brought up andagreed to.
On the motion of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL for
Ireland, the order for going into committee on the Com-
mon Law Courts (Ireland) Bill was discharged.
Some amendments on the Public Health (Scotland) Bill
were agreed to pro forma, and the bill was recommitted.
The Dogs Regulation (Ireland) Act (1865) Amendment
Bill passed through committee.
The District Lunatic Asylum Officers (Ireland) Bill was