The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-27 00:00:00

to Ali Moorad be had not had any conversation on the
subject with Mr. Butt. He introduced the Queen of
Oude contrary to the wishes of the Court of Directors.
When he went to the Board of Control he considered he
had a right to exercise his own judgment, and be be-
lieved he was the first president who ever thought of
remitting a portion of the sentence on Ali Moored. He
considered the punishment inflicted on Ali Moorad
as excessive. He never went the length suggested by
Mr. Butt with respect to the Ameer's case. He con
sidered the Government of India was the proper tribunal
to deal with such a subject. He did not know whether
the committee wished him to review the decision he
hail already arrived at.
Sir J. Graham--Certainly rot.
By Mr. Sergeant Kinglake—He made known his
opinion that the Government of Bombay was the proper
tribunal to deal with the Ameer's case to Mr. Butt.
By Mr. Wilson Patten—He bad heard, like other
persons, that members of Parliament had received pre-
sents for advocating the claims of Indian princes, but he
had never been officially informed of the fact. He never
unde'stood that any of the persons who had called
upon him had. any pecuniary interest in the result.
By Sir J. Greharn—lt you had known that any per-
son had celled upon you with respect to tee Aineer's
claim, and had had a pecuniary interest in the settle-
ment, would you have broken off the interview at once ?
Mr. V. Smith—Certainly. I should never have
allowed any pressure to be placed upon me to advocate
certain claims in Parliament.
By Sir J. Graham—Mr. Butt said be wag going to
'Vienna in order to ascertain whether the Ameer was
going to India or net, and he (witness) gave him a letter
of introduction to Sir H. Seymour.
Tue right hon gentleman having answered a few
other unimportant questions, retired, and the room was
ordered to be cleared, in order that Mr. Deasy's proposal
for the production of the bill of costs of Messrs. Hunt and
Esdaile might be decided.
On the room being reopened.
Mr. Esdaile was called, and the chairman informed
him that he was only required to hive dates and names
of the parties who attended certain consultations,
The witness then, in eeswer to Mr. Decay, said there
was a consu'tation on July 27, 1856, at whioh Sir F.
Kelly, Mr. Butt, and Mr. Ayrton were present. There
was also a con-ultation on August 13, at which Sir F.
Kelly and Mr. Bioglake attended. Mr. Butt was not
present.
Mr. Roebuck—How many consultations did Mr.
Butt ettsnd in 1856.
Witness —Orie. On the tr..l of February, 1857,
there was a consultation; Mr. Butt's name was not
down as attending on that occasion, but he believed he
was present. On the 21st of July there was a consulta-
tion, at which Mr. Butt was present. Neither he nor
his partner, Mr. Huot, ever paid Mr. Butt any fees for
attendance on those occasions.
Mr. Deasy—Can you say, from a reference to your
books, whether any resolution was come to on the part
of those acting ft r Ali Moorad, that Mr. Butt should
take no further steps in Parliament in the Ameer's
case, eeceutino moving for papers.
Witness—l object to answer that question.
Mr. Brieht—l don't see how you can object to answer
such a question.
Sir J. Grabam—lt is the opinion that you must
answer that question.
Mr. Esdaile—lo May, 1857, it was resolved that cer-
tain steps proposed to be taken with respect to the
Ameer, should not be taken unless with the direct
sanction of Sir F. Kelly;
Mr. Bri.rht—Was it objected that Mr. Butt should
not move in Parliament on the subject because he was
the confidential legal adviser of the Ammer ?
Mr. Esdaile—No.
Mr. Deasy—Were the names of other persons men
tioned I
Mr. E-daiie—Yes, certainly, the names of other
parties were mentioned.
Mr. David Coffey was recalled, and in answer to Mr.
Deasy said ne could not say whether, in reference to the
answer he gave yesterday, the consuLation fee he gave
to Mr. Butt had reference to the prosecution of the
Atueer'e chin) in the E .glish oiurt.
By Mr: Roebuck—lle knew that it related to the
Ameer's case. Mr. Butt informed him that a suns
amounting to 45,0001. had been held out to the Ameer
as an inducement for him to go out to India.
By Mr. 800 eerie—Mr. Butt told him he was to re.
ceive 2,000/ , and that a further sum of 8,0001., was to
be paid to him in bids, two at short dates, and the
other at a long one. One was to be paid immediately.
Mr. Butt said he had arranged with Mr. Elward Coffey.
Mr. Butt purchased the bills, and he (witness) filled sb
the dates and the amount, and sent them to his brother
endorsed in the usual manner.
By Mr. Roebuck—Mr. Butt told him there was a
condition affixed to those bills, namely nit he was to
have the amount mentioned for proceeding to India.
There was no stipulation that he was to do anything
previous to his going to India.
By Mr. Deasy—He did not become acquainted with
the circumstances of the case of Mr. Butt's going to
India until he arrived in London.
Sir G. Clerk, secretary of the Board of Control,
examined by Mr. Roebuck, was next called—He raid
he recollected reading two letters complaining of the
detention of Ali Moored on his route to lodic by Mr.
Coffey, and his alleged misappropriation of funds, the
property of the Alueer. The sueject mentioned in the
letters was no affair of the Beard of Control, and be
sent the letters to Mr. Butt to get rid of them. The
letters were sent to Mr Butt as he was a member of
'Parliament, and had taken great interest in the case of
the Ameer, and was on the point of proceeding to
Trieste to make inquiry about it.
Sir J. Graham—Although the document was officially
received it was forwarded to Mr. Butt 1
Witnees—Yee.
Mr. Roebuck—Although it reflected very severely
on the conduct of the person who had no means of
answering it ?
Witness—Yes. It was represented to the Board that
the Ameer was being detained, and that Mr. Coffey
was eating up his money.
Sir W. Codrington—Was the document forwarded
officially to the board ?
Wetness —Yes.
Mr Roebuck—That closes the case for the petitioner.
Mr. Isaac Butt, M.P., Q.C., was then examined by
Mr. Sergeant Delve!. He was member for Youghal,
and had sat in Parliament since the year 1852. He was
first introduced to Mr. Ebward Coffey, in 1856, either
by James or David. He had been acquainted with Mr.
James Coffey for some time, as a barrister going to cir-
cuit. He was not so well acquainted with Mr. David
cern 7. lie. Wag residing in Cleveliand-toad when Mr.
Coffey called upon him and naked for a conference. The
subject discussed was whether the Ameer s case
fit ore to submit to the Judicial Ctmmittee of the Privy
Council. After reading the papers, he was of opinion
there was no redress for the Ameer in the Courts of
law in this country. If the Ameer had been an
independent sovereign, he thought there might have
been a chance for him. He afterward, said tie thought
the case might be laid before the House of Cosamons.
That observation was made in consequence of Mr.
Ed ward Coffey asking whether the subject could not be
laid before the house. He (witness) said he must again
read the papers with that view. He afterwards
drew up a petition to Parliament, which Le pre-
sented., On Friday, the 4th of July, he put
a motion on the paper to bring the matter before
the house en the presentation of the Indian budget. On
the 21st of the same month the Indian budget came on,
but he was prevented from proceeding by the Speaker,
on a point if form. On the 24th the motion was made,
and the papers were granted.
Mr, Deese—Did a conversation take place between
you and Mr. Edward Ceffey, that you were not a very
rich man, and that as you would have to incur enormous
expense the Aineer must reward you for your service. ?
Mr. Bu,t—l am not on my oath, but before my
country and this committee, I declare, upon the honour
and coneoience of a gentleman that no such conversation
ever took place.
Mr. Deasy—Did Mr. Coffey ever communicate to 3ou
any proposition to which you replied that it was not
very satisfactory or kind of the Ameer?
Mr. Butt—No. Nothing of the sort ever took place.
Mr. Deasy—Was there ever any contract or offer
proposed to you by Mr. Coffey of any pecuniary pay-
ment or other reward to be given to you for any
services to be rendered to the Ameer, either in Parlia•
ment, the East India Company, or the Board of Control.
Mr. Butt—Certainly not.
Mr. Deasy—Had yon any other motive in moving for
the papers mentioned, oths r than a sense of the justice
of the case ?
Mr. Batt—My only motive was that I thought the
case offered a good opportunity of Parliamentary
distinction.
Mr. Deasy—Had you, in taking up the case of the
Ameer Ali Moorad, any hope of ultimately receiving
reward ?
Mr. Butt—Not the slightest.
Mr. Deasy—Have you been present at consultations
relative to the Ameer's case /
Mr. Butt—l bare.
Mr. Deasy—Have you ever been paid for those con.
sultationa ?
Mr. Butt—Never.
In answer to further questions the hon. gentleman
said he told Sir F. Kelly he was about to open a nego-
tiation with the Beard of Control, but that he would
take care so to conduct it as not to compromise him, and
that he would not take any steps without
hissanction.
He saw Mr. V. Smith, who said he was disposed to
take the same view of the Ameer's case as ate had done,
and Mr. V. Smith gave him authority to state that to
the C iurt of Directors,
He told Mr. Smith that, al-
though he had the strongest faith in the Board of Con-
trol, he bad not the same confidence in the Court of
Directors, upon which Mr. Smith advised him to com-
municate privately with Mr. Mangles, under the assur-
ance that that gentleman would not reveal the corres-
pondence. He did so, and Mr. Maeglea received a
communication in confidence, and that confidence
was kept from the fact given in evidence that the letters
had been destroyed. As he proceeded in the transaction
he submitted the letters to Sir F. Kelly, not in confer
once but in the course of private conversation. Mr. V.
Smith said the matter ought to be submitted to the Indian
G^,vernment, and it was at that time that Mr. Coffey
suggested that he (Mr. Butt) s'ieuld no to India to settle
the Ameer's claim. Mr. Coffey then introduced the
Ameer to him, and he said he would give him 10,0001.
to go to India. He said it would n)t be worth his while
togo for that sum, and that he was quite certain it would
'be for the interest of the Ameer that he should go. He
afterwards spoke to Mr, B. Coffey on the subject, and
said it was of the uterus`importance to him to ascre ton
if he was able and willing to carry out such an arrange-
ment.as ki r,
offey eaiif there could he no doubt or it,
but on speaking to other friends witness wee advised not
no account to quit England without he had3,oool. down
and the remainder well secured, and that was the spa.
cifio Ltanternent he had with Mr. Coffey. It y7as