The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-26 00:00:00

the country, and who acted with impartiality between . Government to move further in this direction, as they
the two parties, instead of by an officer of inferior rank, said the statistics would be useless if obtained. After
whose sympathies must necessarily be engaged on the the Easter recess it would be his duty to see what could
one side or the other. (Hear, hear.) There were, there.. be done with respect to Scotland. (Hear.)
fore, some circumstances which counterbalanced the ad- The motion was withdrawn.
vantages of that unity of administration which iu itself NAVY RETURNS.'
would be a great benefit to the general interests of the Sir C. NAPIER moved for returns of the number of
country. But after all, the decision of this question ought continuance service men in the fleet on the let day of
to be left to the feeling of the people of Ireland. (Ceeets.) January, 1857, and the number discharged that year,
If the people of Ireland agreed with some of those who and a Nether discharged by survey or not—of the number
had spoken that evening, that the oontinuance of this of continuance service wen in the fleet on the Ist day of
image of royalty was no longer of any use, and formed a January, 1858, and the number since entered—and,' of
barrier which interposed between them and their real the number of first and second class boys in the services
sovereign—if the people of Ireland thought that local on the Ist day of January, 1857, whether apprentices
circumstances rendered it desirable that this establish- or not, and the number discharged, with their own crone
ment should be abolished, he should at once be pre- sent or by survey; also, of the number on the Ist day
pared to vote for its abolition, and the substitution of of January. 1855.
another: arrangemeit. (Hear, hear.) But if, on the After a few remarks from Sr J. PArriaToN and Sir
other hand, he was led to believe that the present tern- C. Woon the motion was amended by oncitriug from the
per of the Irish people clung to the establishment latter part of it the words referring to the class of boys,
rather than wished for its abolition, be did not think " whether apprentices or not," and •" with their owe
that the small saving of expense or the advantage, consent, or by survey ;" and thus amended the motion
undeniable as it might be, of greater unity of adminis- was agreed to. ,
tration should counterbalance the feelings and opinions GALWAY FREEMEN DISFRANCHISEMENT
of the people of Ireland (cheers from the Irish BILL.
members)—and he thought that Parl anent should defer On the order of the day being read for the second
to the national feeling on that point. (Cheers.) He
readinss f this bill,
.hought the people of Ireland had a right to rxiiect that Mr. ROEBUCK moved that the bill should be read
Parliament weuld defer to their opinions in favour a a second time that day six months. Trie measure, be
the existence of the office of Lord-Lieutenant. (Cheers.) said, was unjust, ie that it punished the electors who
Mr. ROEBUCK, in reply, said be had been accused had been brined, but let the bribers escape.
of greet presumption, being an humble and private mein- Mr. WALPOLE suggested that if the bill were
ber of Per lament, in daring to bring forward this ques- allowed to pass the second reading, the just award cf
tion, and that it was a singular mark of his audacity to punishment for an admitted offence could be determined
do so. (Laughter.) But let the house remernb r the in committee.
authorities be had. (" Hear, bear," and laughter.) He Some discussion ensued, in which Lord Lovaiite,
had the authority of the noble 1 ird who sat on his right Lord A. Vane, Lord J. Russell, and Mr. Disraeli took
band—(hear)—who in 1850 orought in a bill expressly part. The amendment was then withdrawn, and the
with the intention of abolishing the office of Lard-leeu- bill read a second time.
tenant and appointing what was then called a fourth The noose adjourned at half-past 12 o'clock.
Secretary of State. The noble lord's bill was supported
by the tate Sir R. Peel, by the present Home Secretary,
by the noble lord the present Secretary for Ireland, and
in fact by the whole of that bench—( hear, hear," and
laughter)—and a majority of the members of that house.
Then he was told that he was opposing the feelings of
the people of Ireland ; but how was he to judge of that
when in 1850, just after the famine in Iceland, and the
people were suffering from bad government, a majority
of the Irish members voted for this very amendment ?
(Hear, hear.) India was now suffering under a double
government., as Ireland had been suffering from it ie
1850 ; and as the noble lord near him rushed with a bill
to remedy tbe government of Ireland, so did the noble
lord the member for Tiverton rush. with his bill to e, -
medy the evils of the goveininent of India. (Laughter.)
Some eight or ten years had passed over since the
famine in Ireland ; and if in 10 years' time some one
proposed the previous question in r -fereine to the
government of India, did any one suppose that the noble
lord the member for Tiverton would vote for it, as the
noble lord on his right hand was going to vote for the
previous question that night ? The noble lord near him
was not unversed its politics in 1850—he had arrived at
the years of discretion at that time, he supposed—and
when he brought in his bill be must have thought that he
was providing a remedy for the evils iif the government
of Ireland. S r R. Peel voted wits the not.le lord ; and
yet he (Mr. Roebuck) was charged with audacity fcr
following in the steps of the noble lord. (Hear ) He
had ne doubt there was some truth in that statement.
(Laughter.) But another thing was said—the previ us
question had been moved. He was the victim of the pre-
vious question. (Laughter.) Last year he brought in a
Wain and simple proposition for the abolition of the
Lord-Lieutenancy, and he was met by the hue and cry
that he bad not proposed a substitute. The then member
for Yarmouth moved the previous questi n, and the
whole of that bench went out with him. The noble lord
was not present, but he understood that he gave an bon.
member authority to quote his opinions strongly in fa-
vour of his motion. The right hen. and learned Attor-
ney-General for Ireland (Nir. Whiteside) made a won-
derfully eloquent speech, and he never heard more ca
pital abuse of the office of the Lord-Lieutenant—
(laughter)—but he saved himself by voting for the pre-
vious question, on the ground that he (Mr. Roebuck)
had not proposed any substitute for that office. He
now proposed that substitute, and the right bon, and
learned gentleman still voted for the prev:nus question.
(Lauehtero The late Chancellor of the Exchequer said
he had great objeotioa to the multiplication of Secreta-
ries of State. He said that four was a good number, bu
that five was a bed number. (Laughter.) Was it indeed?
Then how came his government to propose a fifth Secre-
tary of State for the government of India. (fear.) The
right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary said the Lord
Lieutenancy was better as a local authority than a secre-
tary of state. Bat he would ask whether anything was
done without the authority ef the Home Seers ary, and
whether the gracious answers given by the Lord-Lieu-
tseaet to deputatiene in Ireland were not frequently
overturned by the cool and calm directions of tee Chan-
cel' ,r of the Exchequer and the Herne Secretary I
(Hear, hear.) The fact was the Lord Lieutenant was
nothing but au tale pageant, and what be said in open
ing the debate came upon him at its close, that the die-
tributme of responsibility between the Home Secretary,
the Ler I-Lieutenant, and the Irish Secretory, dreier-yeti
responsibility. (Hear, hoar.) Wby did they refuse en
this occasion to vote fur that which in their hearts they
approved of ? (Hear, hear.) Because to the present
Government, as to every other Govern neat, it was in-
convei lent to to so. (Hear.) The noble lord the Se-
cre-ary for Irela d sail leave it to time, a change was
coming over the opinions of ties Irish people on this
question. Tne noble lord had indulged the house with
a calm, courteou, and excellent speech that night, but
ne recollected another speech iu which the noble lord
spoke in a different frame of mind of the L ,rd-Lieutenant
of Ireland, and wile the permission of the house he
would refresh the memory of the noble lor f. (Laughter.)
On the second reading of the bill introduced by the noble
lord riser him, the noble lord these spike. He quoted
from Hansard : "L .eking back as he did upon tue bid
tory of Ireland, ho believed that that history was but
one continued scene of misgovernment. He looked upoi
the office of Lord-Lieutenant as•the chief feature of teat
system, and now that it was proposed to abolish than
office, he could but rejoice at the change." (Laughter.)
Ag-in, in page 1439, he found these words of the nob
lord "A. an Irishman he could not view with, a, y
feeling of alarm a measure winch might have the effect
of drawing closer the bonds of union bet eeen Ertelaed
and Ireland. It Irish influence was really to be felt—if
bleb interests were r-ally to become powerful—it was not
by provincial, but by imperial influence that those (sues
were to be ebtaiued. As members of the impend senate,
Irishmen could far better minister to toe welfare of
In land, titan by backstairs intrigue iu the Castle of
Dublin." (Cheers and laughter.) Then he sac aske:
on what authority he made tate motion. (Laughter.)
Second thoughts, it was said, were best ; but second
thoughts sometimes CUM, and r very peculiar circutn•
sea .ces—(laughter)—and the noble lord's speech ti,-night
owed its origin, he supp sod, to the peculiar circum-
loaner s in which he now was. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The hon. member for Norfolk (Mr. Bentinch) assailed
hint in a mode which heilid not think ho ever deserved.
(Hear, hear.) But there was a bucolic state of mind,
on which to cast arguments was very much like throw.
ing seeds upon a rock. (Laughter.) He had done his
duty in this matter. He founded his proposal on great
authorities—authorities on which be had more faith thou
the authors themselves had. (Laughter.) He supposed
it was owing to his fault that the question failed that
niget, for it could not be that the noble lords and those
who folio wed them, and who were wise, reasonable,
and experienced, did in 1150 what they were ashamed
of in 1858. (Laughter.) In conclusion, he would only
say that if any hon. gentleman were going to vote for
the previous question in conserrence of the last portion
of his resolution, it was his intention to strike off that
part of his motion if the house negatived the motion of
the previous question. (Hear.)
The house then divided on the previous question.—
" That this question be non, put."
The numbers were :
Ayes
Noes
The °Heine( mod in was, theni ire, not put.
THE DESIGNS FOR MODEL BARRACKS AND
PUBLIC OFFICES.
Mr. B. HOPE moved for cope of a memorial pre-
sented to the Treasury, tbe War Deprt•nent, and the
Office of Pudic Works, from the Royal Isis mute of
Architect', in reference to the recent competi-
tions for mi del barracks and for pubic offices.
The mot ion was agreed to.
COLONISATION (INDIA) COMMITTEE.
On the motion of Sir R. FERQUEION, Mr. De Vere was
added to thi • committee.
ENDOWED SCHOOLS (IRELAND).
Mr. BLACK moved for a returi, of toe cost of print-
ing and distributing the report of the evidence on the
endowed schools of Ireland, in four folio volumes, corn-
' rising 2,680 pages, and by whose authority the same
was priu el. The hon. gentleman held up 415 large
b'ue-books, and said he should dice to know the cost of
their production. (Loud cries of " Read, read, and
laughter.) •
Mr. WALPOLE said he had of-en expressed a wish
that some s eps should be taken for curtailing the ex-
pense of printing reports of this kind. He hoped the
matter would nit drop until it was put on a beets lest-
trig. He disapproved of the system of commissioners
making separwe reports.
The motion was agreed to.
AGRICUL TuRAL STATISTICS (SCOTLAND).
Mr. CAIRD called the attention of the house to this
subject, with a view to the future c Wectien of statistics.
Those collected voluntarily in Scotland bad beet, of
great pat lic utility, and no claes derived more benefit
frem them than the farm:-rs themselves. They had now
been published for four years. He ;mild suegest in
future that the acreage of crops under cultivation should
be ascertained as a precaution agairast scarcity. The
estimate of, the produce was very expensive, and of
little use. By confining the return to the
acreage of
crops under cultiva ion much expense weld,' be avoided,
and ,an undertaking might be come to between the
Governinetit an I the Highland Society. The hon.
gentleman oorcluied by moving fur papers relating to
the agricultural statistics of Scotland.
Me. BLACK said that tie parties connected with the
H ghlend SocOey had come to the dot- rminetiou not to
continue the labeling they had for licitly carried on.
Mr. BLACKBURN doubted thin utility of these
statistic's. They came out so many mouths after the
harvest that they were of no use whatever. As to the
acreage that was no guide at all to the amount of the
crop. The difference between the Government and the
Highland S. ciety had arisen from the Govern-
went objecting to the very small charge which was in-
curred and which was below the estimate.
Alter a few words from Sir,T. OGILVY,
Mr. HENLEY said be believed the realm to the hon.
rnewber's motion would bo nil, for there were no further
papers. (Laughter.) The statements of the Scotch
members did not hold out much encouragement to the

Countly r4araetE.

MANCHESTER—MA.IIoz 25.

There Was a limited attendance this morning. English
wheat of good quality sold slowly at 1s to 2s per qr. less
money ; inferior offered on lower terms. In foreign also
a similar reauction. Flour also sold slowly, at is per sack
lower than last week. Oats and oatmeal were also rathes
easier.