The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-13 00:00:00

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to the period when the late Government re-regardthis
dance tap i had been done by hispredecessors in to report.
! first question he asked on assuming
. office was, what
tired. (flear. hear.)
Mr. MILNES suggested that the case which hadibeen ,
I He learned that Lord Panmure., immediately on. receiv-
laid before the late law officers of the Crown, together iin the draft report, had appointed four committees to
the
with their opinion, should also be presented to the house. consider different points referred to. He was autho-
rized on the'part of the Government to state that they
( Hear.)
would
Der. S. FITZGERA.LD said the right hon, gentlemen not hesitate to call on the house to vote such
were necessary to carry out the improve-
(M.r. Gladstone) uttered nothing but the truth when he suemasts" geted. (Hear.)
said that her Majesty's Government had no reason what- The tio
ever on their own account to decline the production of m smuoggn that the house at its rising do adjourn to
Monday was then agreed to.
any paper] which would give any information to
NAVY ESTIMATES.
the house. Since the present government came into
office there were he thought but two papers which at all
.
came under the notice of his department. One of these
On the motion for going into Committee on the Navy
Estimates,
mentioned that one of these men was discharged from
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said a motion stood in his
• prison and placed under the British Consul ; the other
name for referring the army and navy estimates to a
contained the instructions which were sent to Mr. Lyons,
As the right hon. gentleman bad
and which were to guide him in his communications t
with seated that it lect commit
was tee.
only intended on the present occasion
the Neapolitan government. These being the only two
papers in which the present government were at all con-
to move for certain sums on account, and had asked the
s
house not to enter upon the general discussion, he would
cerned, any disinclination on their part to produce these
papers could not arise from any fear of the result to
them from the- production of these papers. The only not bring forward his motion at this time. He wished
objection that existed to the production of these papers to state,
however, that the estimates for the army and
was that they would really put the house in possession navy were the largest that had ever been submitted to
of no information which they were net already possessed parliament since the termination of the French war, with
of. With regard to the production of the opinion of the the exception of the two or three years of the Crimean
law officers of the crown, he believed that would be
quite contrary to parliamentary usage. (Hear.) if, war. (Hear, hear.)
General CODRINGTON expressed a hope that some-
however, on looking over the papers he found there were
any which would give further information to the house, thing would be done to raise the compensation given to
her Majesty's government would be most willing to pro- the staff officers for the deprivation of servants. The
duce them. (Hear.) n. sm of ls. a-day in England and ls. 6d. in the colonies
The
Lord J. RUSSELL regretted that the answer of The
was too little for the labour necessary to take care of the
hon. gentleman was so unsatisfactory. (Hear.)
die. horses. He ho
question was one which could not then be fairlypad the Secretary for War would take
cussed, but they could discuss what were the means
.by the matter into consideration and raise the amount, and
which they could obtain information to guide the judg-
said, also give the option of employing soldier servants when
meat of the house. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman
t civilians could not be found.
and said quite accurately and in accordance
d opinionthe
of the law officers of the crown. But nothing was more Estimates.
usual than to produce the letter of the Secretary of State Sir J. PAKINGTON said,—l rise to move the first
or the Under Secretary of State, which was generally a mere vote on the Navy Estimates, but before doing so I beg
echo of the opinion of the law officers. There were two to
important questions involved in this matter. One was express my acknowledgments to the hon. member
for Lambeth for the courteous manner in which he
as to the capture of the Cagliari, whether it was made in
Neapolitan waters or on the high seas, and the other as has waived the motion of which he had given
to theltreatment of the prisoners. As to the first of notice, and which he had a perfect right to bring
these questions, the hon. gentleman informed them that forward. I hope also that the urgency of the occa-
in the opinion of the law, officers whatever claim the aw •
n will induce the honourable member for Dover (Mr.
Sardinian Government might found on the fact that the
Osborne) to waive the course which he indicated in his
capture of the vessel took place on the high seas, and
speech he would take on going into Supply unless some
not on the waters within the Neapolitan jurisdiction, the
statement was given of the policy of the Government.
111,itish Government could found no claim on it. If the
The hoi. gentleman has been of late years so little in the
opinion went to this, that the vessel was a Sardinian,
habit of addressing the house—(hear, and laughter)—
and under that flag, the British Government could make
that he now seems to have forgotten what is the usual
no claim on her, he (Lord J. Russell) fully. assented ; but
mode of designating the members to whom he wishes to
if the Sardinian Government had a claim to the vessel,
allude, and therefore I had some difficulty in making out
and if it contained two British subjects who had been
who the gentlemen was to whom he referred a short time
captured and detained in direct violation of the law of
ago. (A laugh.) lam inclined to believe, however,
nations, no one oould persuade him that the British Go-
that he did me the honour to refer to myself, and to some
vernment ought not to support the Sardinian Govern-
observations which I made elsewhere. The hon. gen-
ment in its demands, and bring the power, the resources,
tleman had little ground, I think, for making the com-
and the name of Great Brila'n to the aid of the weaker
state. (Hear.) With regard to the other question—the plaint that the present Ministry had made no statement
whatever of their policy. That statement has been made
treatment of the two prisoners—he must say that, even
most distinctly in another place, by the noble earl at the
supposing the capture to be lawful, the treatment of the
head of the Government. A very full statement has also
two erg nears went far beyond what was necessary for
been made by my right ,hon. friend the member for
safe custody ; the time had been unnecessarily protracted,
Buckinghamshire. I availed myself of a similar oppor-
and their treatment had been unnecessarily harsh, severe,
tunity likewise to make a statement, and other members
and cruel. Even supposing the Neapolitan Govern
of the Government have done the same. (Hear.) I really
mont had a prima facie case for their imprisonment, it
think, therefore, that if my right hon. friend (Mr.
was not justified in treating them in such a way as that
Disraeli) had now given us a repetition of what has been
one had lost his health and the other had lost his reason.
The right hon. gentleman had expressed confidence as to so fully made known, the hon. member for Dover would
have been the first to complain so great a waste of the
the result of the trial ; he (Lord J. Russell) had no con •
time of the house. (Hear.) The state of public business
fidence in the justice of their treatment before the trim',
renders it desirable we should have some grant of money
nor in the justice of the court before which they were to
on account. The house has already been made aware of
be brought. (Hear.) He knew perfectly well it was
the necessities for doing so, and I acoordingly rise to move
not an unusual course for the Neapolitan government,
the first of a series of votea for the navy. I have to state,
when it found any spirit of independence or regard for
in the first place, that the votes on account with which I
law on the part of a judge, to change that judge, either
shall conclude are founded entirely on the estimates of the
previous to or during the trial, and he would not be
late Government. My right hon. friend stated the rea-
surprised if the Government, wishing these men to be
son why it is essential that we should ask the house for
convicted, should find a judge not likely to do so, that
this vote immed.atay ; but I hope the house will bear in
he should be changed to one more subservient,
mind that I have succeeded too recently to the arduous
His noble friend, the late head of the Government, did
and important office which I hold, to be able to come for-
not defend the Neapolitan government ; and whatever
ward at once on the part of the Government with a dis-
course the new Government might think it necessary to
tinct and definite opinion with regard to the estimates
adopt, he (Lord J. Russell) hoped they were not ready
of our predecessors for the maintenance of the navy.
to make an admission that they considered everything
(Hear, hear.) I am bound to admit that I have
done by the Neapolitan government was in strict accord
received every possible courtesy from the right hon. pen
sane with justice, and that it was necessary to enforce
tleraan the member for Halifax (Sir C. Wood), my lin-
on them those principles of justice whish our Govern-
ment and other governments considered it due to them- mediate predecessor in office, ands that my right hon.
selves to maintain. He hoped that the hon. gentleman friend has given me every explanation that was neces-
opposite and the noble lord at the head of the Foreign- sary to enable use to proceed with the duties the die-
office would lay on the table of the house all the papers charge of which I have undertaken. Bnt, notwithstancl-
which it was possible to produce, including the despatch ing that assistance, if I were to state upon the present
of Count Cavour and say from Sir J. Hudson in sup- occasion the policy of the Government, instead of fulfil-
port of it. Before he sat down he wished to refer to ling the duty which it is incumbent upon me to discharge,
the request made to him by the hon. member for North I should be guilty of an act of folly and presumption
Warwickshire to put off the Oaths Bill, which was fixed which could not fell to deserve and to receive the cen-
for Wednesday. That was the only day he had, and he sure of the house, considering how elaborate and im-
certainly should not postpone the committee. (Hear) portant those navy estimates. (Hear.) Undoubtedly, it
The any hon. gentleman might make his motion at other would be in my power to come down to this house to
stage of the bill, but he certainly would bring it La- declare that we had adopted the estimates of the late
ward on Wednesday. Government for the whole year, and to shelter myself
P
Mr. RIDLEY said that with regard to the product and the Government under the course which the late
tion of the opinion of the law officerofficers, he might that Government adopted. But we do not think this
the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. S. Fitzgeral3) that would be either an advisable or proper course.
when the China papers were laid on the table, the opi- daring the present state of public sisals and the demand
Lion of the Queen's Advocate was also given. upon the resources of the navy which the state of affairs
Mr. B. OSBORNE (who, on rising, was received with is China and India has created—considering, too, what
derisive cheers and laughter from all sides of the lieu ;e) all parties in this house must admit, the necessity on
said he did not wish to stand between the house and the every ground of prulence and propriety that the navy at
business of the evening. He agreed with the right home and in our own ports should be maintained in an
hon. gentleman the member for Oxfordshire that until effective state, the house will think that the Government
the papers were produced they were not in a state to are only taking a proper course when we announce our
discuss the question ; and he was far from blaming the intention to take votes on account for four months,
founded upon the estimates of the late Government. At
present Government, but he must he allowed to express
his surprise and regret that the two questions put by his the later period of the session I shall move the remain-
hon, friend the member for Richmond and the member ing estirriaton and I will then state the views of her Ma-
ter the King's County had not been treated with the jesty's Ministers, ana move those estimates upon the re.
courtesy vouchsafed to !the hon. member for Bridport. ponsibility of the existing Government. This is the
He did not think it would have been at all unnatural course which we think it our duty to take, and which
when a Government came into power, or rather into we are more inclined to fellow on account of the very
office—(laughter)—ueeler such peculier ercemstencee, large estimates that we find were prepared by the late
Government. It would be inceneitset with;lie anneunce-
if some account had been given to the house of the
meat I now make to go into details, butl will state the
policy which they intended to pursue. He believed such
leading points which justify the course which I propose to
had always been the case, even when the head of the
take on the part of the government. We observe not unna-
Government happened to have a seat in another place ;
turally the difference between the amount of the navy
for any explanation of policy given them was not consti-
tutionally before this house. (Hoar.) He was much estimates for 1858-9, prepared by the late Government,
and the amount of the same estimates in 1852-3, when
surprised to see the hon. gentleman resume his seat
my colleagues and myself were in office during the Go-
without giving any answer, even to the amiable language
vernment ef Lord Derby. In the year 1852-3 the gross
which be so much insisted on, to the questions of the
' amount of the estimates for the service of the navy was
hon. members for Richmond and Kings County. The
6,705,746/. I find that the gross amount of the navy
hon. gentleman had intimated his intention to call for a
estimates for 1858-9, including the packet service, is
large vote an credit and asked for the utmost forbear-
• once of the house. As an hon. member he (Mr. B. 10,128,6151., the difference between the two years being
Osborne) would give every assistance in carrying on 3,422,8691., or in round figures not less than 50 per cent.
. public business, but at the same time, when the hon. lam quite aware that there are many circumstances
gentleman made such are neat he thou ght it would i which explain this large difference between the navy
q,
have been but respectful to the house, and still more to estimates of 1852.3 and those of 1858-9. In the first
n- place the war with Russia led to au enormous increase
the country, if he had given some programme of his i
of the navy estimates. lam bound next to refer to the
tention before be asked for money. He would not press war with China, or I might rather call it our quarrel
the subject at that moment, as the hon. gentleman had with Commissioner Yell
already spoken twice, but before he asked for money he increase in these 'estimates. which has also led to a great
The house will also bear in
would have time to make up his mind as to what his
mind the great
increaseof steamships, the great expenses
future pulley would be ;as yet the house knew nothing incurred in the dockyards in consequence of that in-
. of it. They had just beard that the Government
crease, and the recent transfer of the' Coastguard service
had succeeded to the inheritance of the noble lord's
from the Customs to the Admiralty, which go in a great
foreign policy with regard to Naples, but he did not d to difference between
know bow far the house would be satisfied with that. degree account for this enormous
(Hear, hear.) As far as he could see some painful min • the estimates of 1 e 2-3 and 1853-9t.at,efor however, I com-
pare the estimates now upon the h 1853-9 with
conceptions were likely to arise with Naples. The right
he estimates for the present year of 1351-3 ; here again
hon. gentleman had taken credit for utti an end to
painful misconceptions, which, however,p hadn existed in I find a very large increase, which I teink imposes upon
his own fertile imagination,' for until the right hon. gun- me the duty of carefully investigating its causes. (Hear,
tleman
was not went on the hustings at Aylesbury he (Mr. B. hear.) I will first take the difference in the number of
Osborne) sewer
with regard to prance, of
It would be hut ' any misconceptions existing men. The number of men voted for the current year,
1857-8„ e , was —offieers seamen, and boys for the fleet,
d for a supply to
gramme
of e
becoming in 31,000; for surveying, store, and troop ships, 20,000 ;
the right hon. gentleman when he ask
be prepared to givesome pro what his intended for the Coastguard service, 5,700 • making a total of
measures were. Until he did so the house ought not to 38 700 men. To these may be added 15,000 marines, ,
and the estimates submitted to; the house by the late
grant one shilling. (Hear, hear.) It was his intention
to use the utmost forbearance, and the most amiable Government this time twelvemonth amounted to a.
language towards the government. He believed the right gross total of 53,700 men. At a later period of the
hen. gentleman who repreeen ted Buckinghamshire would, session, however, in the month of July, the late Go-
if he had it his own way, be as good a reformer, and as vernment came down and proposed a supplementary
advanced a liberal as any man in the house. Elie could estimate of 2,000 men, which made a gross total of
only get rid of three or four of his colleagues, including 55,700 men for the year. In the estimates now on
the head of the administration, he would be sure to ob- the table for 1818-9 the number of men is very con-
fain the support of the liberal party, but to do so he siderabiy in increase of that estimate. The number
e should considerably weed his own party. There was a of officers, seamen, and boys for the fleet is put down at
t: right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) sitting next to 35,000 ; for surveying, troop, and store ships the num-
- the right hon. gentleman whom he was reported to have her is the same as last year—namely, 2,000 ; but for
converted Coastguard service the number is increased from 5,700
to his opinions on the Jew Bill, and if he
to 7,380. The number of marines is the same, viz.,
would, through him, give the house some assurance that
15,1100, for both years, but the general result of the
when he called on it for a grant of money on credit h©
woulda thel number of men proposed by the late Government to be
beprared to give astatement of the intentio iel
voted for next year is 59,380 men. Tee difference in
government, he (Mr. Osborne) would be pre-
pared to listen and grant the money, but if that was men between the original estimate of the two years
not done ha therefore stands thus :—There is an increase of 4,900 in
ourable would feel it his duty, when the right hon the
down to ask for a vote, to call the vote for officers, seamen, and boys for the fleet, and
attention to thean additions o the Coastguard of 1,680, being a' gross
anent had sineceed2mtostances under which the govern-increase of ,630 men for next year as compared with
to place himself or rightoffice. He should be sorry
thethe original estimate for the current year. If, however,
position. He felt that thevenee'oss, gentleman in that
we add the men voted in July the difference between
right hon. gentleman
came into power under such circumstances the two years will be 3,630 men. lam bohnd to add
difficult task for him to decieonh it must be a
that at the present moment this increase of men is, in
measures. The
right hon. gentleman who sat next him's
had my opinion, absolutely necessary—(" Hoar, hear,"
possible for twelvetoldhirstnlen;n-
stitaents it Wai not humanly
into office to make up their from Sir C. . Napier)—and I will show it to the house in
teen gentlemen coming 13 a:- this way :—The total number of men and boys voted
minds. He (NIL Osborne) would be content if the right
hon. gentleman would only tell them
his
to
iod when it was
of
to declare as year or t e service of the navy, including the sup-
plementary vote of July, amounted to 35,000. The
humanly possible he could make up
his r
po icy. If that was not done, he should have some number men and boys borne in men-of-war and ves-
sels in commission by the return of last February was
tete • .
versation with his right hon. friend the member for Jkalaton under L
esee,„dra.nteL
,Vne, who knew so well how to draw 35,915. So that the number of men in commissioned
ships was 915 in excess of the number voted by Podia-
telsee;,,,,,,
mans °f see whether he could not meat during the year. The marines, however, fell short
The statement made by a noble
hat esZ,t forcing the right hon, gentleman to
lord in another pl . of the number voted by Parliament, and the general re-
the house or the e'ce
Qcluld suit is that, including seamen and marines, the number
, not, and of men last February exceeded by 860 the number voted
The subject th:tolt"dir-gP,,,d ought not to satisfy
by Parliament during the year. If, however, the nuue-
SANITARY STATE see, e, berg were raised to the fall complement, so that all the
Mr. LAURIE, who had --- 1-11-- ARMY
tof the ships in commission were fully manned, in addition to
td call the attention of theallevoe4 notice
hi 3 Intenticli the
'
i3..present excess of 860 men, we should still require
commissioners on the sanitary house to
tlae T 6 , a 5 men, showing a total excess above the men and
boys voted in 1357-8 of 2,216. (Hear.)
state of te,„, Poi'
cially to the portion that r.fers to the Foot Guard, "a-Well, sir, the
Portman-street
nor; iltnth:osi.ernetirtes should be agreed to,
the fable prepared by the late Government
tared in the metropolis, said that after he bar" oar-
estimates on
fo__
~ . Sear show an excess of only 2,000 dth -
read the "T next
report lately presented he had visited
Barracks to judge for himself. He found 20 men bud• manedniaf nthe shipsere
require nes were folly manned, we should still
number of men • nisei' I mention this the estimate,: of the late
oflee voted, 1
died together in a small room. The air was so vitiated I'm
Governmentm" 'n're
than
there quiremen "of --
exce" but
a that the total •
\ir i t
ir
somewhattosho w that
ehor
short
the
f
find
to the amount
that be wag glad to beat a retreat, He was, however, fur 1858
informed the room was far preferable to others. He felt
of money proposed tt.l(lT''`vv.
mated expenditure the preseet
convinced that the statements in the report must attract
the attention of the authorities. Since he came into the I
'mg the packet service, is 9,172 year,oi 1857-8, anti
he bad learned that the right hon. gentleman
.the ' ,
member for. Wiltshire (Mr. S. Herbert) intended to bring
estimates on the table exceed thiss9e -..! lrha groulanct-el3tda-1
I have mentioned thesel
forward a motion on the subject. He, therefore, would jug to, for 1853-9, 10,123,6151., beii7joeTeexactil ai,intetent-
not further trespass on the house than to express his cc /1' ;prevent year of 956,0251. the
viction that no parsimony would be allowed to stand in ,show to . that the present Government are onlytakgitiree
the way, but that they would cheerfully vote any stun i
Proper course when, under preasare of oar r eiitionn,gwae,
that might be required to secure the comfort of the ! 0. 1
;oily ask thehouse upon
soldiers.
' the estimates of the late Government. I will Onto more
. Gem PEEL could assure the hon, gentleman that the