The Sun.
London, England, 1804-06-26 00:00:00

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been, spoiled last war, by enconniging the tr!;.._o to
q lit the regiments and volunteer into the lire ; it
was this bad treatment of the Militia which dis-
gusted many Gentlemen fr6m h'aving any' thing to
do with it. Considering then' the population of the
,French :Empire to, be near so millionS, and our,po.
pulation only ten, he thought we never coul4 pre.
tend to keep up any thing near' an. equality With
them in inilitary establishment,, but - should rely
principally on our. Navy; which had always been
considered as the best bulwark of this Country.
Lard LIMERICK replied to the. Noble Duke
he Said; that 'the Noble Duke had over.. rated the'po-
pulatiOn 'of Franet,- and .under-rated that of this
Country, and that his Speech 01100 thp'yy)iole was of,
a desponding nature::: He stated the great services
that the Militia' of every part of the EMpirehad
done in volunteering their services, and therefore
would by no means allow"that the Militia had been
ruined by indiyiduals offering their services either
to Ireland, Holland, or Egyv-. He -hoped the-same
spirit would al ways
,be found to animate the Militia,
and all .those Force:, which.niight enlist in the first
ite''d 'service.'

L'ortl WESTMORLAND, in a Speech oft con-
siderable•length,
.e9tcred into the .Bill, both in its
principle and details, with considerable ability. He
shewed 'the -great' advantages Which were likely to
Tesulr from the encouragement it would -give to the
recruiting the.. Regular- Army out of the. Additional
Force,row to be raised,.andanswered many of the
obk:Aion'S which 'Wiere Made. to the

Load i kTiiptiOiedsehe Bill, tinder -a sincere
-con/tit:lion of (lie .of the measure, and
condemned those-who i;-nputed to_ Noble Lords of
opinion,, an intention of Supposing it to hatas's
Vlinisters; n,i mcitiae ut atat nature itiflueneed him.
Of many in AdMinistration he though. highly, and
was actuated merely,-in-iris opposition, by a sense of
dory, _'He .their en-egret' into. the consideration of
m,my'parts.of the and shed what-appeared
Co him the inaldequaci of the-measu're'..

.L.6I'ePSUFFOI,K- Con-dtailied the•measure as com-
plicated and-inefficiesit, 'and thought the, best
fence of the Colintry.wouldbe an armed.population,
and an immediate increase 61 the bispo.iable Force
nr legidar-Artrry:

Lord G REA' i'ILLE said,' after the imputation
cast
,upon the 'opposers ;of the measure, by,:Nobi,
ILords on the other side of the House, it was doublyincumbent on hiM tZr'Sitite'the-reasons which inSticel
him todisapprove of !the, present Bill. These ini-
potations of -a-personal nature, he could not btit think
ill suited to the measure, andill advised on the part--
of those 'whb Made .them. His experience •in
Parliament had not known any thing rzserpbling
their prevent cOfidua : before a word was advanced
in
.op•position, the.-propOseo of, the measure had as
• serted that the objeaions brought forward would
be altog'eth•er of a personal roituie, "and-not appllea_
to the measure itself.. This he berr,O,ed, on his, own
parr, expressly to disclaim. ' Of most of the :Mem-
bers, of ;the present Administratinni'or at least some,
he had the_ highest opinion, 'and entettained the
, A-farinest. affcaiun fors them, and even now, after
i woat had been alledged, it was his wisloandshould
be his constant endeavour, to discuss, the question
vithorit any-.personal, allusion -whatever.. He• would
agree with the Noble Lord CklunoaAvt), that it
was ailarneutable circumstance that, in a situation
like the present, the Country ,was deprived of the'
benefit of that junction of ,Parties and exercise of
i(4lePt, that in his ppinion,,miglit have 'been ob-
iained. Having saidsthis by way.of .preliminary,
in oorswer_•to the personal allusion • made by: the •
Noble Lord on the,..othei side, he said,, he should
advert to the Bill ; to-which he had a most decided
objeaiqn, or rather a series of decided objeaions.
It was not, howeVer,. in hiS power to urge
any ,thing ne'w, or put' ,what had before peen
argued 'in a 'more 'forcible POint of view. The
measure, in his opinion,' was liable to four, principal
objz:aions--::lit, It Was unconstitutional; 2d, it was
-appresiiie" init's'regidationa ;'3:l, it was inefficient
to itsObjFa_;,..ioh, it would diminish theDitposable
Forde it meatit .:to increase. The: princkple of 'the
Plan, as far as'he could reo'rpoilehend -it, was idapT
ply 4. large part of the f\oilitia I,Urce to the put-
poses pf. the Regular Army.,, or 'rather to Crea're a
new,aord:- larger force, available in a Patoiculan,.vay,.
, to the, increase of the Regtilar Ariny, and to render.
the new and increased Forces permanent, He al:
10Vved;.that- in a meastrre partaking of so many Mat-
ters.of detail, it was .diffictilt exae.lily to ascertain its
•
direst princip'es, but such it appeared to him. All
persons 'agreed' that the bisposable Force of. the
Country should be increlsed as moon, and toaSgreat
an extent 'as possible ; but it was obvious the effefl
of this till would be 'to prevent any •soch increase
in therfirst instance ; for the'objea of this Dill was
-eircurirouslyto giVe a greater bOunty to men enter fi
-
ing the Regular Army through its stages,. than those
who entered direaly; namely, the boonty given to
enter the Army of Reserve, and 'that given to men
who enlisted' in the Regulars' froth the 'Army of Re.
serve, was conjointly hauch Mote than .what ,Was
singly offered w men to enter at once-into the Re. •
gulars. This, ,he contended, milt nechsarily'ope.
rate in the first instance as
.a check on theßegular
Recruiting Service ; for 'a Man now intending' to
enter the RegUlarS, wOuldo by the operation of this
Bill, he allured from his purpose, and induced,' foe'
the make oCthe, higher bounty, to •enter the Army
of Reserve for• limited service.• It was therefore
inefficietit, and even :destriiCiive to its' objea.-•-=--
Adtiiiiting some men might enter froth the Army
of. Reserve into the Regulars, Still this' would riot
• establish the of tie unless it was shewri that
these mew would not hajte entered if• this Plan had
hot 'been established. He conceived the contrary, -:
and'that many' who'Would be disposed-to enlist for'
the Regular Service would now be induced to en-
ter' for limited service, and for higher bounty. It
was but justice to the late Administratioa io say; '
that their measure of the Army of Reserve was cal-
culated for a temporary emergency ; ' this, on the .
contrary,.• professed •to be permanent. "As' far as
the Force-was temporary and more efficient, he cer-
tainly gave it
,the preference- • It was found, how-
ever,' on experience, to require the recruiting of
the. Reitilar Service as 'an established Plan -. when
its' first purposes were answered, they sroposed to
suspend its operation. He thought there were but'
two lspecies- of Force to be' encouraged, the pis"'
posable and Limired ; and 'the Militia was the

best deseriptreln of the latter; it *as wisely coin.
stioned by. our Ancestors, who made the Nos
bilitV and Gentry, whom it. would not be right
to send out of the Coutoryeavailaislto the purposes
of National Defence. He entered into a particular
detail of the principle and operation of the Militia
Establishrrient, and expressed his decided preference
fur that description of service, in a constitu-
tional point of view. The present Plan, however,
was not only unconstitutional, inefficient, and self_
destiuftive, but also unjust and. oppressive in its
means, or, as it had that night-been called, its tria
chinery. It was the perfeCtion of reason in politics,
as welLas mechanics, to obtain a given etre& with
means of as little power and complication as possi-
ble. The present Bill, however, had a directly
contrary operation. The efficienity was scarcely
any, but the.power employed, and the complicatior
of the means, was prodigious, For these reasons he
thought it bad andinjudicious,and should not be deter
red by any private partiality, (I:rafteaion from giving
it his decided oppbeition. Private feeling, in this in-
stance, was over. ruled by a sense of public duty.
He had, as he had expressed before, a preference;
under all the circumstances of such Plan, to the Army
of Reserve of 'the:late Ministers. He nevertheless
approved' highly of the repeal of . the Ballottin
System, which fell .unequally and. partially 'on dif-
ferent individuals in the parishes in which they
were made.. It was, howeverr an efficient system,
and when its evils and inconveniences were 'felt,
the late 'Ministry propoited to suspend its ope-
rations. The .present Plan appeared to him
to- ice principally •to have in -view to remove
this' Pallor, -And render its substitute perma-
nent.— I.le - expressed :his •satisfaaiort; 'that- the
Plan of
.raising men for rank was so stroasaly and
so pointedly condemned :by the Noble Viscount
at rite head uf the Admiralty (3eord ME LVI it) he,
lilt his LordshiP, bad changed, his opinion. with re.
seta tc it, on:Cseoeful experience of its bad; effeaa,
,yet he could .not but be 4urprizecl at this :Oldie
avowal of the ,Noble.feeerd's opinion, In. faft, 'he
was told, 'a 'Plan of that natuee.Was actually on foot
at present. „if there.wereSany truth irf that repent,
he a rustede froM what t he ir,Lordsh ips had 'now heard
of the NobleViseounes opinion, that he would `exert
his io4tience*.tse. have the,Plan snspended. He.ob..
jested to this Bill.farther, on account of its irregulae
rity e'there :might be large -portions of pasture klis-
trias,AWhere there was but-little_ pooulatikm :and
inOclopropeety, where no men could be had at-all.
A great, °Nation to.the-Bill.was, that the men were
to be foroished.acCording to_ the population e but she
expences were to be calcolated according to rateable
property,. ,This, in manohiaueing towns and dis.
trias, where the population was great, and the rate,
Mile propertrsmall, woul&create a burden which
would be absolutely intolerahle. The quota of men
was large in propoetion ter the.popolation, and, the
mooeyavaseo be raised according to parish_ rates ; no..
tiling could be devised more uoequal and unjust:than
this.it was stated, and that truly, that this was to be
'a Permanent Force,
,hot by whom was it to be paid
for ? by local dist rids instead of the mass of the, pee),
pie. Another objection was, that if a man could not
be found in a paiish, others were to' be,fined for it
when there was no blame imputable to them, anti
this would fall entirely on the agriculture of the
Country All who derived income from trade, from
Mimulatttlres, from labour, from interest ofonsney
in the funds, or otherwise,
.were totally exempted
from contribution to the expence of raising this fund;
the whole of. it was to
.be defrayed by those who
already contribute to the poor rates. They:were to
bear the whole burden of this (on that account) most
unjust and oppressive measure:, It was indeed said,
this was the case of the Militia, but the, case was
not so, there were but few exemptions in the Militia,
and the ballot fell; or was lialsde to fa11,,,00 all, alike,
whether in agriculeuredr in trade ; but here itfellex.
elusively. on agriculture.' He felt that the situation
of the Country was such as respired our utmost.' ef-
forts, and the Couo try would not ne.wanting, provid-
ing they were justly dematuled ; but there was no
partiality, oonseqUently no .justice in any part of this ;
and therefore no great efforts were to 6.e'eke6ed
under it., e' He 'would not 'have said any thing Of-the
raising Recruits, if it had lieenosossible to avoid dt,
bitche waesbound to-observe, that he did not see that
the education ofot,CleurchSwarden adapted him to this
purpo'se ; nor did he 'think a farmer's education well
disposed of byendeavouring to raise Recruits for the
Army. He thought one Recruiting Serjeant more effi-
Cient" for such, 4. puepoee than, perhaps, all the
Chuechewardens in the K.ingddri ; and, to'say the
truth, he should be sorry to see coosiderable 'farmers
engaged in. ail. employment to. seduce ycuog Men
into the military-service ; but he had no fear that any
suchchange %vivid take piaCe in consequence of this
Bill ;' farmers would not 'devtite their time td.such a
pursuit, as thus •idling in .an alehotise and sharing
boonties with Reerui:s." He i'as warranted in sav-
ing this, because- the experiment had been tried.
Was it not Well khowei that last year Recruits could
not be procured by the Parishes, whets they were al-
lowed to raise Subscriptions, and extend. their &un-
ties, and Was it to be expelled that
.they could raise
them .when all--these gleans, were limited ? He
Complained alsO of the i,exation to the Lieutenants
,and Deputy Lieutenants of the Counties under this
Bill,
_He had heard of the iliostate,O( oor-dee
fence—Cod Grant we
,might t:e. so ; but that de.
pended Much. upon the Volunteer~ For,ce, Parlia
inept had heaped Upon, them exempeion upon ex-
emption, and bounty; upon 'bounty, to induce them
to enter into that sort of serssice. Now .they bad
no inducement but their. own, zeal and patriotsim,
which he allowed to be gtea.t, but certainly all
that Parlianient had thought necessary i's 3 be done
by way of inducement for men to
,became Vo-
lunteers., was co. be entirely .dooe ieway, for they
lost every -single exemption they hitherto, 'had.—
If this could be annulled, he should be glad
to conceal it, but that ,was impossible . aria
therefore every One Volunteer who
.became such
on account of the exemptions alkyl/co ,fo such a
Charatter, would now quit' the 'ranks, since he
gained nothing -by .remaining in them. , The last
thing he had to take notice .of was, that -which the
Noble Earl stated in he the best 'part of• the Bill
and he must- say for his part, with all the objet_`
tionP to all the' other Parts of the Bill, his objec=-
tion was greater to this than to all the'reit ; and.as
the Noble Earl bad said, that if-this Bill contained

nothing but that enaelmenf, it ought to iieiagre.4
he would say, if it contained nothing else that tied;
jeaionable, it ought on- that account alone to be re,
jeaed. It was that after a Treaty of Peace was
signed, the Force still remained . capable of
,being
Called into anion upon emergency. Whether we
should ever again conclude a Peace that would in
point of defence be more alarming than War, he
knew not, but he should think that, provision-for
'peace shoold be left to the time when' it came about.
He objected to this part of the Bill in particular on
Constitutional principles, for it was a large mass of
Force raised, not upon the principles of the'Mis
litia, nor commanded by the Gentlemen of the
Landed Interest of the cour,ry; but. by Offi:ers
of the Regular Artny, try witinne for abilities 4no
integrity, he loek4tao with perfea respes; lo:tt still
this was not theoild system' of security t;--t the Brie
fish Constitutioie 'fills Bill 'was dangeratis to the
palladium of the British Constitution, -anti -this •of ,
'course was the greatest objet of an-toir. -He had
heard, not in that House, but elsewhere, -that this
was aPlin similar to that which is the prevailingsys7
te.n of all the gre'it•MilitaryGovernmenia of Eorope.
He knew that to he the case, 'and it was because
they followed such a system 'they were Military
Governments ; but it did not consist-with the tree,
fun of this Country to he under such a Military
Governmente: Bzfore their Lordships agreed. to
welt a measure, he hoped-hey would consitl'er of the.
consequences of this Country being under a Military
Government. He Concluded• with soling, he had
trespassed upon theH6use toielong, but he was un-
der the absolute' necessity of stating those vote,
menes, by, which/ if he could -not ,convince their
Lordships, he had at least convinced himself.
Lord- *HAWK ES BU R-Y spoke in, answet to the ,
Noble Lord who had just sat doivn, at cnrishlerable •
length; .He admitted -that .tife'Noble Lard had fairly
'stated. the -principle of the Bin ; it. went, first, ba
raise an additional Permanent liMited Force, end see
conitirilY:to. odd -considerably to: tite Regular un,
limited 'Force. of the -Country. The Bill .was
-founded on the measure-of-the -Reserve Alt of last
Session,-which he contended had been More%effeated
to its Objed-than any. military measure _Of the kind
that had ever received the saki it'll of Parliament. r
was 'therefore - deemed ..advieible preservee-the
ground-work of that as a modified measure e .first, as
in -the instance before their:L-ordships,- in reg-Ard to
-aw-ebolition of the. Ballots; .secondly„ethe ieguiation
or the fines; and thirdly,' with teip'ea
portant. fioinCa-c.ornpetition., Thesobjea.Was to
suspend all that ,avipeared objedionable firstl.
mentioned Aet, and to engraft:upon 'it the salutary'
and' beneficial regulation of the 'present measure,
especially the putting end tooll -the competi:ion',
with respea to the Regular Army. In regard to
the Militia, were that the only Defensive Force of
the Country, us was the case when it x
s present eat
was proposed. The aggregate, number of
72,000 men was, by no means, with a reference
either. to the circumstances 'Of the Country, or the si.`
tuation of-Europe, 'too -large an 'amount ; 'but since
that period a 'middle description Of-Defensive Force
wag created, which in its eclat .obviouslyreodereel
a Militia on such- in enlarged scale .unne.ceisary—
,Theßegulations.proposed by the.present Bill would
enable Government to adhere more stridly :to the
original Militia-principle ; the force of the Catin.
try, particularly its DaCnsivee was regulated in its
amoopt, by the 'circumstances in which the Coun-
try was placed et different-periods, as the War cons_
nieneing in 1756, -and that With France in 1778 . In
the last War, the Armies of the Enemy were mostly
engaged upon the Continent ; but the beginning
of the present War, the circumstances of the Conn:,
try were such as evidently, required a Defensive
Force upon a very enlarged scale, and the question
which presented itself was, as to the Most efficacious
mode of obtaining it. In framing the present mea-
Sure great regard was had to the consideration of
local influence in Recruiting, which, though not so
great from pecoliar circurnstences, as in Scotland
and Ireland, was still an important consideration
in, this Country. Much had been said of the
proposed fines.; to :which he would only answer,
let those. provided for •by the present ,Bill, he
compared to what was
sexaaed by any preceding
measure:: of the kind, and they would- be found
moderate. in the extreme. As to tite regulation
with respect to the Church-Wardens, he would beg
leave to remind those who. harped upon it so
much, that, the- measure was by no means-new—
even last, year it was resorted to, and the numbers
of men who enlisted into the general Service, even
'under the „regulations of the Artily of Reserve
. should atignr• most favourably for the more-efficient
regulation of- the present measure. The' Noble
Lord. taped of the Levies of the great Military
Powers of the Continent ; there the power of come
pulsion existed; with us it was very different. In
regard to the measure, in a Constitutional point of
view, he warmly contended-that it did not militate
in ,the smallest degree againit the Bill of Rights.
And under these genera! impressions he decidedly
suppOrted.the Bill.
Lord CAMDfiis/ explained.
Lord. GR At4Tl... EY' observed, :that the mode of re—
, ctuiting proposed- by -the 'present Bill, had already
been tried, and had completely failed.
The House theta divided, when there appeared
Fur the ad reading of the Bill, 84
Proxies ' e 70—ts+
. Against it - e 50 . •
Proxies - - 15,_.69

Majority for Mr. PITT's Bill
Adjourned at Two o'Clock.

HOUSE OF COMAIONS.

,MONDAY, JUN! 25.

. SIR CHARLES BUNBVRY brought up the Report
I' of th CoMMisttee for making certain Regulations on
,the ItiterBo*lirse of this Country' aud Ireland, with
regal "'to Corn,: the Resolution. were read and
agreed to. • , •

. . , ..
-.The Denmark Mint Bill was 'read .a third time
and passed, On ' the' Motion of ' Mr. STURGES
I. BOURi4E.
- WOOLLEN mA'NUFAC T U R E R S .

Mr. H. L'A'scEiLis. moved the Order of the My
'On the Woollen ,Manufaeturers' Penalty Suspension
Bill,