The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-16 00:00:00

LONDON, fRIDAY_ EVENING, JULY. i 3, 1858.

1-ii done, a select cone,' -....-.
into . "°Por. the -,.. and that committee never
,he wukina r,P -ittee was appointed to inquire
• , the at,
made a a iii,, inferenceopini being that they did not ag-
ue •nmunicate with the various
prove of it. q ,hot:itinewa 3 most favourable, and dur-
ing the recess ki -;th th
parties interested, the, iew, if possible, of restoring
...He knew that such a step
next session the iiivi t'4 Cle position .iii which it was
placed by the bill of 1 .844.
would be looked upon by mat ‘y as one towards a general
equalisation of poor-r. ates, izn it he believed that both
those who hoped and th cove wl.:o feared such a consum-
mationAT NAPLES.
woulodubße gereoaNtlysudit upyointed in the result.
Mr. DiIIeGLISEI wiehe d to know whether Mr.
1 Barber, the British Consul at Naples, had received any
promotion or other mark oft Tpzehation from Govern-
ment for his great kindness to the English engineers of
the Cagliari while imprisone 8, and for his successful
exertions in procuring their re lease ?
Mr. S. FITZGERALD was so sensible of the zeal and
intelligence of Mr. Barbar the it he was not disposed to
criocise too severely the ter xis of the hon. member's
question, but he could not he 1p reminding him that the
zeal and intelligence of Mr. Lyons had also something
to do in producing the desires: result, The Government
had already recognised the services of Mr. Barber, by
sending him, although not a naval officer, to deliver up
the Cagliari to the eArdinian Government, when he re-
ceived their personal thanks. Subsequently Mr. Barber
had been appointed, :iubject to her Majesty's pleasure, to
a past of double the v aloe to that winch he now filled.
PRICE OF GUANO.
Mr. CAIRD asked the Under Secretaty of State fur
Foreign Affairs whether he would lay on the table a
copy of the letter from the agents cf the Peruvian Go-
vernment on the subject of a reduction in the price of

guano.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD bad no objection to lay on
the table the papers aBked for by tho hon. member.
111;6, 01' 0 U
Mr. PEASE asked the President of the Board of
Control whether the King of Oude was now in cwtody ;
and, if so, whether he was about to be brought to trial
Lord STANLEY said that according to the latest ac-
counts the King of Oude was in custody at Fort Wil-
liam, but it was not known at what precise time his trial

would take place.
CHELSEA BRIDGE.
Mr. ALCOCK asked the First Commissioner of
Works what was the amount of the loan advanced by
the Government fur Battersea-park, Chelsea-bridge, and
Chelsea embankment, and what was the amount to be
deducted for land sold to the railway company and to
Chelsea Hospital, or disposed of in any other way, in
order that it might be clearly understood by those who
desired to remove the toll•bars at Chelsea-bridge, what
sum might be required to be raised by an appeal to pub.
lie subscription with a view to make up any deficiency
(if the surplus land did not fetch the amount due), so as
to pay off in full all the money lent by Government for
the purpose of this or=at .netrupolitan improvement.
Lord J. MANNERS said that the sum advanced was
200,0001., and the annual interest 3,0001., and there were
certain liabilities beyond, which had been fixed by Act
of Eirlisment in this way. In the first place any sum
obtained by the ::ale of land was to be appropriated to the
formation of the blidge, then go to the repayment of thc
sum due to the State, and if any was still left it was to
be devoted to other metropolitan improvements. It Nva3,
therefore, quite impossible that any sum could be appro-
priated to the 1.3(.10f-option of the toll, accruing from the
sale of land. Of the land sold 65,000/. worth had been
purchased by the railway company, and 16,500/. by
Chelsea College ; but charges would have to be defrayed
before any portion was available. The loan on Chelsea
bridge was 80,000/., und, with interest, now amounted
to 97,000/. There were no funds, therefore, available
for tolls.
THE BOERS AND, THE BA.SUTA.S.

In reply to Mr. PEASE,
Sir E. BULWER-LYTTON, wko spoke very indis-
tinctly, was understood to say that there had been such
an immigration as that eluded to by the hon. member,
but it had not received the sanction of tho Government.
With respect to the hostilities between the Boers and
Basutas, the last amounts indicated no approach to a
termination of hostilities. Sir G. Grey had offered to
act as mediator, but it appeared that at the same time
the Boers had called upon the South African Republic
for aid, and the latter were sending an armed force into
the country.
HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer whether an arrangement could be
made giving him a day for his motion respecting the
Hudson's Bay Company.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
endeavour to-morrow, or on Monday at the latest, to
come to some arrangement to meet the wishes of the
hon. And learned gentleman.
SCOTCH TENURES.

In reply to Mr. ENTART,
Mr. Secretary WALPOLE intimated that it was in-
tended to bring in a bill to amend the law on tenures in
Scotland next session.
DUCHY OF CORNWALL TENANTS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in an-
swering Mr. Roberts, said that it was intended to place
the tenants under the Duchy, of Cornwall in a position
not worse than that of tenants under the Crown, but by
a bill to be introduced next session rather than by a
clause in the measure now before the house.
NEW CALEDONIA. BILL.:
Mr, GLADSTONE inquired whether it was proposed
to take the New. Caledonia Bill that evening, and sug-
gested that, as amendment 4 were to be introduced, it
should be rccimunittei for that purpose, and printed
with the amendments previous to the third reading.
Mr. LOWE asked if the right hon. Secretary for the
Colonies would have any objection to lay before the house
an estimate of the charge which he anticipated would be
cast upon the Exchequer by the formation and defence
of this new colony ?
Sir E. B. LYrTON, after consulting with one or two
members of the Government near him, turned round and
whispered a few words across to Mr. Gladet.me, while
the Speaker was patting the question on the first reading
of a bill.

Shortly afterwards,
Mr. WYLD repeated the question as to whether the
bill wag to be proceeded with that evening.
Sir E. B. LYTTON, after another consultation, re-
plied that it was his intention to move the third reading
that evening.
CHINESE PASSENGERS ACT (1855) AMEND-

tend—whm impartially considered—to a directly oppo-

site conclusion ; because it is said with equal plausibility
that the very facts that the Sovereign, the Legislature,
the courtsof justice, and the centre of administration

are to be bung in this city, show that they have greatly
contribute' to the importance and prosperity of the me-
tropolis, aid that if not the principal, they are, at least,

among the chief causes of the splendour and power of
the city ofLondon. Under these circumstances, one is
naturally inclined to ask—Are we, or are we not, to
trust to List municipal principle which is so often eulo-

gized in tlis house, and of which we are all so proud, as

one of tht principal characteristics of our constitution ?
What is the value of this municipal principle if it i.
limited in its application ? Ought it to be so limited 7

If it is tie duty of a population of 300,000 to cleanse
their straits and clear their river, why should not such a

duty be tquelly imperative upon a population which
may b 3 counted by millions? (Hear, hear.) What be-

cornea of that admirable self-government, that system of
local administra..ion of which we are all so proud, to
which we appeal so frequently in our legislation, and
in the influence and efficiency of which we,llave so much
confidence, if when a great trial like the present arrives

wa abandon as defective the system of local administra-

tion, and we admit the inefficiency of the municipal prin-
ciple ; giving up all hope of relief from such sources, and
declaring that this is a case which must be taken up by
the nation, and which must be met by the aggregate

resources of the people of this country. Her
Majesty's Government having considered thie
question without prejudice, and with the utmost anxiety
to submit to tho !mugs a proposition which woild be
AuequaLe to Liiti ueebtlauli, :41 ti UL OpilllOLl thus Lleld lei au
instance which must bo met by local resources. (Cheers.)

The object is to remedy or diminish a local inconvenience,
and in their opinion means for applying a competent
remedy should be provided from local resources. I need
scat caly remind the house that, with the exception of a
very small portion of the metropolis, which has been
under the control of an ancient and celebrated corpora
tion, the municipal administration of this great city of
London—a city, not only the most extensive of modern
times, but greater than any ancient cities of which we
have authentic records—is still really in its infancy. In
the disagreeable and difficult position in which the in-
habitants of the metropolis have found themselves during
the last six or sight weeks, they have naturally con-

trasted the enormous ca en of the evils with which they
had to contend with the feebleness of the municipal
mac:oinery by which only a remedy could, be provided.
\Vu have looked into that question. We have exiroined

the conduct of that Metropolitan Board of Works which
not much more than two years ago, was instituted by
Parliament to constitute the powerful and efficient,
municipality of this great city. That body has, how
ever, beyond all question, not hitherto proved itself to be
very effective in carrying out those works which come
within its control. (Hear, hear.) It must at the same
time be borne in mind that the period of its existence
has as yet been brief, and that although the Legislature
has committed to its hands the performance of import-
ant duties, we have not combined with those duties the
power adequate to their due discharge. (Hear, hear.)
I cannot but feel that I have -now given a fair and
impartial summary of the position in which the
Metropolitan Board. of Works has been placed by
Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Well, the question then
arises, can we invest that body—which occupies the in-
fluential position of the municipality of this metropolis,
and which ie, as a consequence, the body to which
we ought to appeal in those instances in which
we seek that every grievance connected with the
metropolis should be remedied—with powers adequate
to the accomplishment of that great work which we are
all so anxious to promote ? You will, generally speak-
ing, find the corporation of a great city like London—
the capital of an ancient kingdom—in possession of con-
siderable estates, and when under those circumstances a
large and unexpected demand upon its resources and
energies arises, it has the means of raising the funds
necessary for the performance of the work which it may
be celled upon to execute, We have, however, in the
present instance to deal with a corporation which has
great duties to discharge, and which nominally is in-
tru.ted with great powers for the purpose, but which in
reality is almost completely denuded of all means of
raising a considerable sum of money. In theory, it is
true, its members have the power to avail themselves of
large resources. They possess the power of rating, and
of rating, I believe, to an unlimited extent, the inhabi-
tants of those districts the affairs of which they adminis-
ter. The bouts must, however, on reflection perceive
that nothing is more illusory than a rate, and nothing
more unsatisfactory, no matter how liberal the language
used by the Legislature may be, than a retina power
whenever a large amount is sought to be obtained.
(Hear, bear.) A. corporation being called upon to invest
capital to a considerable extent in public works very na-
turally does not anticipate that it is to be furnished with
that capital out of its income. If, indeed, it should
happen to be in possession of large estates it might raise
the necessary ELM sf money at a moderate rate of in-
terest ; but in dealing with a simple rower of rasing you
must bear in mind that the rate exists only for a tingle
year, and that third ire it constitutes, practically speak-
ing, a seearity upon which no pert on would be disposed
to make any considerable advances. (Hear.) When,
therefore, a rate is the only security which you have to
offer you are in this position, that you can procure only
a small sum of money, and that too at a high rate
of interest—a result Winch would by no means meet the
exigencies of the case with %%Lich we have this evening
to deal. (Hear, hear.) Now, the Metropolitan Board
of Works have; I am bound to say, given to the ques-
tion of the purification of the Thames and the main drain-
age of the metropolis very careful consideration. They
have employed in the investigation of the subject a long
period of time. They have availed themselves of the
knowledge, the science, and the practical experience of
the highest authorities. They have arrived, too, at re-
sults with respect to the subject in the accornplehment
of which they place the most complete confidence. They
in no way shrink from the responsibility of endsavourieg
to effect an object which we all have so much at heart,
and which it will certainly become their paramount duty
to use every mean: in their power to attain, provided
Parliament will only place them in a position in which
the remedies which they have in contemplation may be
effectually brought into maim). (Hear.) Now, the ex-
penditure which it would be necessary to incur in order
to secure that end—in order to clear our river and to
complete the main drainage of the city—is estimated at
a considerable amount. It cannot, indeed, be computed
at much less than 3,000,0001. ; and now cornea the
question, how is that expenditure to be met ? In reply
to that question I have to state, in the first instance,
that her Majesty's Government propose, for the consi-
deration and, as I trust, for the final adoption of the
house the following scheme. We propose to, take steps
by means of which this new corporation to which I have
referred, should find itself in the possession of a consider-
able income—l shall not say of a permanent, but at all
events not of a transient character—(hear, hear)—that,
in other words, it should have an income at its command
for a considerable number of years which will enable it
to effect all those objects which we now seek to accom-
plish. (Hear, hear.) In order to carry out those views
we propose that Parliament should interfere and impose
a rate on the inhabitants of the metropolis, which shall
form a special rate, for the purpose of purifying the river
and completing the main drainage of the city—(bear,
hear)—a rate which shall be confined to the promotion
of those objects only, and which shall be denominated
in legislation and practice "the main sewage rate
of the metropolis." (Hear, hear.) We propose that
it should be, both as regards its amount and
the duration of the period of its imposition, a tax which
should effect these two objects—namely, that it shell'd
supply the necessary funds fir • the accemplishmeut of
the great work wh:ch I have mentioned—the cost of
which, as I said before, we cannot estimate at a less sum
thee 3,000,0001.-4nd that it should furnish a basis upon
which engagements might be entered into, conditions
subscribed, and regulations made under the direction of
'competent authorities--to.whoen shall subsequently
more particularly refer —by mesas of which at- the ex-
piration of the period during
which the rate may be
levied—a sinking fund having been in simultaneous
action—the complete extinction of the whole of the debt
which may be contracted for the attainment of the end
which we have in view might take place. (Hear.) If
that result can be brought about it will. in our opinion,
be found to furnish a satisfactory solution of the finan-
cial part of the question. (Cheers.) Now, we are in-
formed, and I have documents before me which afford
no
t moreevidence ofth tahnedjelueittilc
te
beef
pound,
cd n that a rate of
ofo'r a term of 40
years, will be stiteient to provide funds for the comple-
tion of the svholelof the main &aloes:a of the metropolis,
an I at the same time to. furnish a einking fund which at
the end of that period will enable the Metropolitan %are!
of Works ',O liquidate the debt which they shall have
incurred fit ordet4to carry this scheme into execution.
(Hear.) That this result may be arrived a', an appeal—
and to nre mind an appeal of a most legitimate character
—has been made to her slajesty's Govertsment for assist-
ance. It is not an appeal made on behalf of the Metro•
politan 130ard of Works to aid them by an nib-once of
Lae piseee 1.11,0144 I,l* t. iu.ai,;a iee. to lie
lovtru
upon the community generally in meeting any por-
tion of en expenditure which, although considerable in
amount, et still of a locel nature. (Hear, hear.) They
simply a'k us to assist them, as we have .beere in the
habit of Assisting the proeucutors of public i;orks in
almost every portien of the kingdom. (Elver ) The
house cannot fail to he a airs teat there is a meehinery
in existence through the medium of.which pecueiary aid
is extended at a moderate rate of iuterast, for the purpose
of promoting public enterprises, such fur instance as the
building of bridges, gaols' and other public institutions,
and which else provides the mode ie which those advances
should lo repaid. The establishment through whose
agency th s is effected is known under the name of the
Excheouoebills Lean Commissioners Advances; but its
powers, Inlay add, are of too limited a character to enable
us to avail ourselves of its interference in the present in-
stance. Ire propose, however, to attain the end et which
we aim br means of a neaeleiuery, if not of a precisely
similar, at all events of an analogous obaraaer, The house
will perceive that if we invest the Metropolitar, Teemed of
Worsts with the power of levying a rate of 34, for a period
of 40 years, which would amount to about :140,600/. per
annum, they would then be in the possession 'of a consider-
able, though not altogothee s;ornatinent income, and would
have it in their power to raise mowy Jtit another diffi-
culty arises then. Most of those institutions in this mePeos
polis whials have large amounts of capital at their disposal

are prevented, either by bye-laws or by conditions in their
deeds of incorporation and settlement, from lending their
capital except upon real securities or upon the security of
the public funds. Therefore, they could not lend
money to the Metropolitan Board of Works, even be
endowen with the poWer of raiiing-140,0007. a-year .for 40
yea's, and even if they would be satisfied with such seen-
fit3r,. What we propose ix' that tthe--Government would
guarantee the principal and interest of the sums which the
fulfilment of p
Isrti
thaeel
ataskpprdo
pi inomts
eel
I.) oetss
that
da
ast uti
ho
the
eGt
Metropolitan Board of Works may wish• to raise for the
sumo
loveen; Government
cgounatri tni
toenes .ca
p3:),'Ontooese, hOroOotualli.ncl,
provided the Metropolitan Board of Works raises this
revenue of 140,000/. a-year for forty years, subject to
conditions which are contained in this bill, which
will place the financial operation under the control
of the ITreasury, by which means we shall
secure not only the payment of the interest, but
also the regular operation of the sinking fund. We
propose that we should guarantee these advances up to
3,000,000/. during a term necessary for the construction of
the works, at a rate of interest not exceeding 4 per cent.,
and thus the 140,000/. per annum to be raised will not
only pay the interest upon the 3,000,0031., but will pro-
bably leave the debt incurred by the corporation entirely
liquidated. It is possible, indeed, that the Government
may not be called upon for a single shilling, for with such
► guarantee, there will be no difficulty in the way of the
Metropolitan Board of Works raising the money. (Hear.)
By these means the Metropolitan Board of Works will find
themselves in possession of a sufficient and adequate in-
come, not only for the construction of all works connected
with the main drainage of the metropolis, but also for a
sinking fund which at the end of the term will have li-
quidated all advances. Such is the outline of the pl,n we
propose. Her Majesty's Government having now placed
the Metropolitan Board of Works in an efficient position
as regards finance--if this scheme be sanctioned by the
house—had next to consider what should be their course as
to the construction of the works themselves. (Hear. hear.)
After having given the subject all the consideration which
itg aPninnris—e'd T rt,,nre tlo-3 here; Its.
desire of shrarlieo,,, from responsibility—we aro of opinion
that it would bo the wisest course, if our plan be adopted,
to leave the Metropolitan Board of Works iu perfect free-
dom as regards the construction of the works. We shall
therefore propose that all the regulations contained in the
original bill constituting the local government of the me-
tropolis, which require that under certain circumstances
it should be incumbent upon the Metropolitan Board of
Works to apply for the sanction of the First Commissioner
of Works, and under other circumstances to ask for the
sanction of Parliament, shall be entirely repealed. (Hear,
hear.) We propose to give to that body ample and ade-
quate means for the fulfilment of the duties imposed
upon Thom, and we also propose that they should be left in
the full enjoyment, of freedom and of that responsibility
resulting from the position in which we desire to place
them. The bill provides that the works shall be COM..
Dieted in 5 years—that is, by the end of 1863, and dur-
ing that period the advances will be repaid. I anticipate,
s far as I can at present form any opinion, that upon the
whole we may reckon that 600,000/. per annum, or 300,000/.
every six months, will probably be required to carry on
these works. I bdiovo I have now laid before the house a
qence.l outline of tile scheme which we intend to r °corn-
mOud to Parliainent. There are in the bill many clattses of
imp): tince, but thug aro details, and it would not be con-
venient, for me now to enter upon what are proper subjects
for consideration in committee. The house will have to de-
cide whether the course which we have taken is upon the
whcle the most prudent that could be devised, and at the
same time adequate to the conjuncture. What we have
sought to do is to make the Metropolitan Board of Works
a real corporation—(hear)—to invest it with sufficient
funds—to endow it with sufficient power, and to give it
not only power, but responsibility —a responsibility which
cannot be expected unless we leave it perfectly unstiu.ckled
and untrammelled. (Hear, hear.) We have endeavoured to
reconcile the attainment of these great objects without
trenching in any degree upon the national resources in aid
of what, after all, we cannot but consider to bo a local
work, and so far as we recommend Parliament to sanction
any interference on the part of the Treasury we have done
so in unison with the general conduct of Parliament in
such cases ; and I trust the house will conclude that it is
a legitimate and, under ail the circumstances, a prudent
application of that power. I have now placed before the
house the general features of this measure, and I ask for
its leave to introduce a bill to purify the Thames, and to
provide for the main drainage of the metropoli,e (Haar.)
Mr. ROEBUCK, as a point of order, submitted that, as
the bill contained powers for taxing the country, its intro-
duction should be preceded by a resolution.
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware that there was anything in the bill levying a tax
upon the country. (Hear, hear.) The character of the
bill went to show that the Imperial resources were not to
be applied to this work.
Mr. WILSON said the rule was that if a bill authorised
the contraction or the guarantee of any loan there must be
a preliminary resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
that a main feature of the bill was to guarantee the prin-
cipal and interest of the money to be raised.
The SPEAKER said he was not aware of the form of
the bill, but unquestionably if its main feature was to give
a guarantee from the public resources, or anything that
might by any possibility entail a tax upon the public, it
must be preceded by a preliminary resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER feared he
could not move a resolution at once.
Mr. WILSON referred to the rule which repaired the
lapse of at least one day between each stage of a money
bill. _ _ .

e......
Lord PALMERSTON suggested that the right hon.
gentleman should bring in his bill without the clauses re-
lating
,to the guarantee, and those clauses could be added
afterwards. (Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER repeated that every bill containing pro-
visions which did, or by possibility might, entail taxation
upon the country must. be preceded by a resolution. There
wore many precedents in which clauses of that nature were
moved in committee of the whole house, but, not knowing
the exact form in which the bill was drawn, it was difficult
for him to decide at once apon the point now raised.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that in 1813 a case occurred the
decision in which established two points—first, that a bill
for merely metropolitan taxation must be preceded by a
resolution of the whole house ; and, secondly, that the
same proceeding was necessary, although the tax should
be purely incidental and beside the main object of the bill.
Upon the third reading, or some other very late stage of
the;Coalsvhippers' Bill, the present Sir B. Hawes, who was
one of its fiercest opponents, objected that as a sum of
I,COO/. which was to be raised to enable the corporation
to put pens, ink, and paper in the thalwhippers'-office,
was secured upon the coal duties, it might lead to their
continuance for one day longer than would otherwise be
necessary—that there would be a tat, and that therefore
the bill ought to have been preceded by and founded upon
a resolution of the whole house. That point was submitted
to the Speaker and to the law officers of the Crown ; and
upon consideration Mr. Speaker Lefevro held that the pro-
visions of the bill for raising this I,ooot. would not enable
the authorities to continue the coal duties for a single hour,
and that therefore the bill might proceed. At the same
time he stated that, had the reverse been the case, the ob-
jection would have been fatal to the measure.
Mr. WALPOLE submitted that in this instance the bill
might be introduced without the clauses relating to money,
which might be added to it after being passed through a
preliminary committee of the whole house.
Mr. AYRTON suggested that the same object might be
attained by introducing two bills,—one to extend the
powers of the Metropolitan Board of Works, and the other
to provide for the raising of the 3,000,000/.
The SPEAKER said that the standing order which re-
ferred to the introduction of bills by means of a prelimi-
nary committee was, " That no bill relating to religion or
trade, or the alteration of the laws concerning religion or
trade, be brought into this house until the proposition shall
have been first considered in a committee of the whole
house, and agreed unto by the house." It was impossible
to say that this was a bill relating to trade or religion, be-
cause it referred to the main drainage of the metropolis.
It was his impression that if the clauses referring to the
raising of the money were guarded by being passed through
a preliminary committee of the whole house all that was
required by the forms of the house would be accomplished,
Mr. WILSON called attention to another standing
order, of the 20th of March, 1707, which provided,
" That this house will not proceed upon any petition,
motion, or bill for granting any money, or for releasing
or compounding any sum of money owing to the Crown,
but in committee of the whole house." That had
put the
the Consolidated Fund.
beengpoigiven
ir,esnh.„mehtesiolgpdhb
SPEAKER
oi
Abn
become
en
oiEvni
noßle
av b a e i
then al 11l questions of guarantee or what-
ever chargefpoiu.
thet main drainage of the uponmetro-
he question "That leave be
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said, that the inhabitants of the
metropolis would receive with great satisfaction the state-
ment which had been made by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and the principles upon which he proposed to deal
with this subject. Oa behalf of his constituents and on
his own he thanked the right hoe. gentleman and the Go-
vernment for the course whieh they had taken.
Mr. AYRTON had also listened with the utmost satis-
faction to the announcement of the right hon. gentleman ;
but he must give the right hon. gentleman warning that
between this and the next session he must be prepared to
frame a comprehensive scheme, reviewing the whole system
upon which the metropolis was taxed. If the metropolis
had no claim for aid upon the national resources, it was
equally true that the national exchequer had no claim upon
the local resources of the metropolis. On grounds of public
tranquillity, considering the great number of the popula-
tion of the metropolis, ho urged upon the Government the
necessity of giving to the metropolis a real measure of
municipal government. (Hear.)
Mr. LOCKE regarded the bill of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer as the play of "Hamlet" with the part of
Hamlet left out. The bill was understood to be one for
the purification of the river Thames, but not one word had
been said upon that subject, and he thought that the Go-
vernment ought to have announced that there was a plan
proposed either by the roved of Works or by the Govern-
ment which the Government would recominaud to the
adoption of the house. All that the right honour-
able gentleman had said was, that he left the subject
entirely to the Board of Works. He (Mr. Locke) had,
however, no confidence in that body ; and all that
the Government proposed to do was to give in-
creased facilities to that body. In addition to this, he
contended that the sum of three millions proposed to be
raised under the powers of this bill, wouldnokbe sufficient
for carrying not eff,etually the works wir.oi were , ,_c : .-
s.try for ttie puritic.utiou of the river. The B ,ard of Works
proposed to carry the sewage down to a point which would
not relieve the metropolis of the nuisance which was
sought to be removed. The bill iu reality meant nothing ;
nobody understood it, and the only thing that was clear
wag that the Government would place implicit confidence
in a board which had hitherto done nothing.
Nr. BYNG ten tercil his best thanks to the Chanc liter
of the Exchequer and, the Government for having dune
' their best to grapple with the most important subject that
could occupy the attention of Parliament at the present
time. Ile thought, however, that the Government ought
to have kept in their hands the veto upon any measure
which might he proposed by the Beard of Works, He
thought that the house ought to have had some informa-
tion respecting the nature of the plan which the Board of
Works was about to adopt. Among other things which
lie would recommend was that the Government offices in
the metropolis should bear their fair share of the taxation
which would be necessary to carry out the plans contem-
plated by the present bill.
Mr. KEN DALL objected to the Government guarantee.
ing 3,0Q0,0001. before any specific plan had been agreed on,
that of the Metropolitan Board of Works having been die-
' approved of by the most eminent engineers, who believed
that if the sewage were carried to Barking it would be
L floated back again to the metropolis. But even if they
• succeeded in carrying off the sewage waters he wanted to
• know what was to be done with the mud banks ; and,
1 fnrther2_ he wished to be informed wbo was obe ClOl4

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during the five or six years that mt. st elapse before the
works could be completed.

Sir B. HALL described what had occurred between him
and the Metropolitan Board of Works when he was First
Cohunissioner:of Works, and went on to state that Captain
Buraall, o t a~%vitae; to report. on the subject, had
ttairtsvat7tfee se*age could'be discharged without float-
ing
back to the metropolis at a Point one mile above Erith
on the south side and at a corresponding point of distance
on the north. The Metropolitan Beard reselved to adopt
a plan based on the principle laid down by Captain Bur-
stall, and transmitted that plan to him as First Commis-
sioner. He submitted it to throe eminent engineers,— ,
Mr. Simpson, Mr. Blackwell, and Captain Gallon,--who
disapproved the plan, and suggested another of their own.
This plan was sent to the Metropolitan Board ; and he un-
derstood the plan now adopted by the Board was founded
on Captain Burstall's scheme, altered in some respects by
two referees. Although the right hon. gentleman had not
mentioned this in his statement, he believed the Govern-
ment had already to a great extent approved a plan and
were prepared to sanction a very material alteration in
that part of the Act of 1855 which determined that the
outfall of the drainage should not be at a point near the
metropolis. The point of entail proposed was, he believed,
on the south two miles higher up the river, and On the
north three miles higher up ; and he thought some explana-
tion on this subject was called for from the Government.
(Hear.) Into the details of the plan submitted he would
not go, but he approved entirely the principle that they
should entertain none of the absurd projects submitted to
the committee upstairs, bat should have the work carried
out by means of intercepting see erg to remove the drain-
age out of the metropolitan urea. The real question was,
what was the nearest point at which the outfall should he
fixed? And on this most important question he hoped the
Government would propose proper safeguards, so that the
metropolis should not be polluted by tl.e yell or eewa,o
iaetece. thouge, too, the principle of intercep-
tion wasono which, above all others, ought to be adopted in
any scheme for the main drainage of the metropolis, yet he
did not think that mere interception would carry out all
that was absolutely desirable. He entertained a strong
opinion that some day or other a much greater work must
be undertaken, one which could not be borne by the metro-
polis only—he meant the embankment of the Thames.
(Cheers.) Every civil engineer who had investigated the
subject arrived at the same conclusion, and believed that
this was the only way in which to prevent the exhalations
which otherwise would constantly arise from the river
banks. (Hear, hear.) As regarded local taxation, the me-
tropolis was in a peculiar position on this point. To a cer-
tain extent it possessed municipal institutions ; certain
boards possessed certain corporate powers ; but in point
of fact, they bore no analogy whatever to corporate bodies
existing in other parts of the empire. The hon. member
(Mr. Ayr ;on) said the metropolitan taxation was 400,00 W.
a-year, but it really amounted to much more. That cal-
culation did not include the metage of corn and other ar-
ticles, which was :.t present swallowed up by the City
corporation. Now, if those powers of levying taxes were
extended over the, whole metropolis and the proceeds ex-
pernicel for the benefit of the metropolitan area generally,
he believed there would be no r ;aeon to complain. As to
the means proposed for providing the necessary funds, the
141st section of his bill in 1855, when first introduced,
contained the same special provision as that now suggested
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) Re-
specting the provision by which the approval of the First

Commi-ssioner of Works was rendered ;accessary in certain
cases, it would have been a great gratification to him if
that duty had not been imposed upon him. It was as very
troublesome one, and the noble lord his successor in office,
was no doubt glad to get rid of it. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Lord J. MANNERS said his right hon. friend in intro-
ducing the bill had contented himself with an exposition of
the general principles on which he thought such legislation
ought to be founded, and wisely so, because, unless the
house arrived at a distinct conclusion as to the general
principle which should guide the relations between the
Government and the municipality of this great city, it was
in vain to come to Parliament with plans either for drain -
lug London or embanking the Thames. (Hear, hear.) This

general principle .was !that those who had to pay for

works should be at liberty to decide what those works
were to be—(hear, hear)—a principle embodied in the
homely proverb that, " He who pays the fiddler has a right
to call the tune." "(Hear.) The right hon. baronet (Sir B.
Hall) was jealous, and perhaps naturally so, lest any altera-
tion should be made by the Board of Works in the point of
outfall as specified in the act of 1855. Now, he wss sure his
hon. friend (Mr. Kendall) the chairman of the Thames
Committee would bear him out in saying that if one thing
was mere clearly established than any other in the course
of the investigation it was, that you could not arrive at
anything like a conclusion as to the point at which sewage
matter thrown into the Thames would not return again to
the metropolis. (Hear:) He thought some disposition had
been manifested during the debate to bring under the no-
tice of the house all the schemes which had been proposed,
or which might be proposed, on this subject, with the
view of asking the house to declare its opinion upon such
schemes. It must; however, be evident to those who had
paid any attention to the investigation of the select com-
mittee, that it was utterly impossible for gentlemen who
did not possess professional and practical knowledge and
experience to form any sound conclusion as to the point
of outfall at which the sewage might be thrown into the
river with the certainty that it would not return to the
metropolis. For his own part he must decline the respon-
sibility of expressing any opinion on the subject. The right
hon. gentleman had asked what security would be taken
that, whatever points of outfall might be fixed upon by
the Metropolitan Board of Work., no nuisance should be
created. The point of outfall which had been suggested
was Barking Creek, but if any point nearer to the metro-
polis was fixed upon it had been determined that the sew-
age should be deodorised before it was discharged into
the river. The hon. chairman of the committee who had
investigated this subject seemed to think that her Ma.
jesty's Government ought, before introducing this bill, to
have satisfied themselves what plan, the Metropolitan
Boma of Works intended to adopt ; but it was impassible
for any Government to satisfy their minds as to arrange-
ments which required the greatest amount of profes-
sional skill and intelligence, and with regard to which there
was a wide difference of opinion among those who were best
qualified to deal with such questions. It would be remem-
b,red that, in the course of the investigation before the
committee, statements were made with respect to other
great' cities besides London. It appeared that Glasgow had
found itself in almost—if not quite— as evil a plight
with regard to the Clyde as that of the metropolis
with respect to the Thames ; but he did not find that the
Government were asked to dictate to the Corporation of
Glasgow in what manner they should deal with the Clyde.
The Corporation of Glasgow had availed themselves of the
highest engineering and chemical assistance they could
obtain, with the view of purifying the Clyde, and abating
' the nuisance—(hear, hear)—and the expense had been
defrayed by the people of Glasgow. (Hear, hear.)
The principle of the bill which his right hon. friend
asked leave to introduce was in direct accordance
with this view, for it did not propose to direct in what
' manner the great works which were requisite should be
carried out. The hon. member for Southwark had asked
who were the persons to whom these extensive powers were
to be intrnsted. They were the representatives of the
people, elected for the purpose of local administration
—(hear, hear)—and her Majesty's Government were of
opinion that they could not better discharge their duty
than by leaving the settlement of this question with
those who, for all local purposes, unquestionably re-
presented the metropolitan community. (Hear, hear.)
That was the principle upon which this bill was based, and
he believed it to be a sound principle. When he was last in
office he had had the satisfaction of settling the interment
question upon the same principle—viz., that of giving to
the municipal authorities the power of taking such measures
as they deemed most advisable for remedying a serious and
growing evil. The hon. chairman of the committee had
asked what temporary palliatives for the existing nuisance
would bo adopted before the great works which were requi-
site could be undertaken and rendered effective. The hon.
member would find that the bill contained a clause giving
full power to the Metropolitan Board of Works to adopt
in the interval such measures as they might deem necessary
for the temporary mitigation of the existing nuisance.
Hon. gentlemen would find, when the bill was in their
hands, that it had been most carefully and skilfully framed,
and that while on the one hand the country would be
spared the expenditure of a single shilling for the remedy
of the existing evils, on the other hand the metropolis
would have the credit and glory of removing, at its own
expense, an acknowledged nuisance, in a manner entirely
consistent with the habits and customs of this old-fashioned
Anglo-Saxon community.
Mr. WILSON thought the best and Most economical
plan would be for her Majesty's Government to make a
loan for this specific purpose and advance it at specified
times as it was require I, through the Exchequer Loan
Commissioners, who had a perfect machinery for conduct-
ing such business. By the proposed plan of her Majesty's
Government they would have, to introduce a new machi-
nery into the Treasufy department, which he thought ob-
jectionable.
Mr. J. T. NORRIS considered responsibility in this un-
dertaking should devolve on the executive body who
would have to carry out the works. Ho defended the Me-
tropolitan Board of Works from the charges of incapacity
that had bean brought against them, and corrected an error
with reference to the cost of the proposed site for the erec-
tion of their offices. Instead of 40,00 a., as had been
stated, the purchase money for Berkeley-house, Spring-
gardens, was only 15,00 x. The Metropolitan Board of
Works were perfectly capable of carrying out these works.
Mr. TITE said that if the sewage was deodorised, it
would make no difference whei eit went into the river
He had some misgivings- that when the heavy expenses of
the undertaking were felt by the ratepayers, attempts
would be male to check its progress. but he hoped provi-
sions would be introduced into the bill tr.) prevent it. The
Metropolitan Board of Works had considered this subject
with great diligence and skill, yet he was astonished to
fin-1, a few weeks since, that they had postponed its fur-
ther c insideration till October next, and that led him to
think that if a few were selected out of the present
..b.edy,
and presided over by the chairman, it would be amore
inat;sgea.ble body for carrying out these works. He con-
-e,r-attilateet the people of the metropolis on the probability
of thou grievous nuisance they had had to complain of being
speedily got ri,lof.
Sir J. SHELLEY expressed his gratification at the in-
troduction of the bill. All the Metropolitan Board of
Works had required all :Jour! 7-1, a fl:ivcrula.:nt guarau-
' t,t, a.ad Lid 1... Les :n given earlier ho had no doubt they
would have commenced those works some time ago. He
thought, however, that the late Government did right in
refusing their asseint to tho fir sit plans that were submiti ed
to theni. He was anxious to see the work begun, feeling
convinced that, many objections to the scheme now before
the Metropolitan Board of Works might he got rid of in
the course of construction, and there was nothing in the
bill to prevent the works being extended to Sea Reach
hereafter, if it were found necessary.
Mr. sim,HENeesser, having expressed his opinion that
the plan laid before the late Commissioners of Sewers by
Mr. Bsz Lizette for the drainage of the metropolis was the
hest, and having eulogised the general englueerin, ability of
that g:.ntleman or, all matte's connected with sewage, skid
he thought the house was labouring under an error on the
question of outfall. Those who differed most widely on the
subject were agreed that, proeided the intercepting system
were adopted, it was a matter of perfect indifference whe-
ther Barking Creek or Sea Reach were the point of outfall.
He suggested that the adoption of the interception system
should be made imperative. (Hear, hear.) It, was the most
comprehensive plan ; it was eilculated to be the most per-
manent, and he was sure that if it, were partially carried
out next year it would produce a most beneficial effect on
the river. It was, in his epinion,essential that that system
should bo expeditiously commenced and vigorously carried
out; for it possessed this I advantage, which was exclusively
its own, that every step that was takenl would improve the
condition of the river. (Hear, hoar.)
Col, SPICES expressed his reasot, that a more compre.

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