The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-16 00:00:00

THE _ SUN,

the filling up, would of course elect a member in their
interest, so that the directors would have eight members
in the council, and the Government only seven. (Hear.)
Unless the nominees of the Crown, therefore, and the
P •
evens elected by the council came to some amicable ar-
rangement
for dying alternately; it would be impossible
to carry out the intention of the clause. (\Lich laughter.)
The Reuse of Commons wanted to pat an end to the
double government, and to have a single responsible
minister for India. Did they get that under this bill ?
They did not. (Rear.) Under that clause, which was in-
troduced at the last moment, without observation almost
and which was hardly known to the country—that
clauae which had just been referred to by the noble earl
opposite, and which he justly described as a clause con-
verting the council into a Perliarnent—it was impossible
that the Minister fur India could be considered as solely
responsible, because ha would not have the sole power.
(Hear, (Hear, hear.) There was another alteration made
last moment, which would also affect
the
intendedresponsibility that th
of the Minister. It was originally
Govenor-Generahould nominate eh of
they
should at
council id India, hot it was now
should be uneolhated by the council here, that was to
OW
That affected the responsibility of
e,Mbyiniastraera. 11r It-e
j°:
sath 'vs could he be held responsible when
single shilling without the concur-
he could not spend a
n
of the council, a large portion of whom were not
rseelescated by him, but elected by the council ? (Hear,
hear.) The House of Commons, therefore, hal not
elected by this Lill any of those great purposes which it
had in view. The point with respect to the nomination
of the members of council in Lelia by the Governor-
General had been greatly misunderstoo I, for it was sup-
posed that the Governor-General would have the power
of ousting the mombera of the council when be liked,
and, therefore, of making them bi 7 tools. Bat he could
do no secli thing, for they eat for five years, and four
years mast elapse before ho could make a single ouulion-
tion himself. He was of opinion that every officer em-
ployed in India should look to big own Government to
reward him for good services, (Hear.) He deprecated
the system of enlisting any man in India who was not
to look to his own merits and his own Government for
promotion, bat to his friends in the council here. (Hear.)
This was a principle altogether inconsistent with good
government in India. (Hear.) But he entirely agreed
with the propriety of substituting the Queen'e nam for
that of the company in the government of India,e and
regarded that change as the greatest advantage which
could at the present moment be conferred on the coun-
try. But then it was necessary to consider how to
use that power, for if it was not well used, it would
be used to the injury instead of to the benefit of the
country. He did not deny that there were many parti%
cular advantages in the bill, notwithstanding the errors
which had been committed. Their lordships would re-
collect that in the first bill which was irate educed by her
Majesty's Government provision was mane for giving
representatives in the council to the military and civil
services in India. That object was absolutely accom-
plished in that bill ; and it must be, at all timer, the
object of every Government to do that. No c iuncil
would be perfect that did nut represent those services.
The Court of Directors, as at present, were notoeiously
impelfeet in this respect. He understood that there was
no member of the court who was acquainted with the
civil administration of Madras. It was of the greatest
importance that there should be some person in the
council acquainted with the financial administration of
that presidency. The object of the provision iu the
first bill was that there should ba at all times ia the
couneil some one who should be able to advise the Secre-
tary of State, and give him information on every possible
subject connected with India. He also thought it de-
sirable to have representatives who need pot necessarily
be connected with any of the particular services of India,
but connected with large public constituencies, in
the Indian council. Teat constituency represented
50,000,0001. of property connected with India, and
there could not be one amongst them who had not at
least property to the amount of 2.0001. They were 67,000
in number, and any person seeking to represent them
must stand upon his character as much as any can-
didate seeking the suffrages of a constituency in
this country. The bill went even beyond that, for
he felt that it was essential to the good government
of Iddia and to the safe conduct of public affairs in this
country with regard to India, that the council should be
a council of weight and authority, and capable of sustain-
ing and giving assistance to the Minister. There was no
greater public object, there was no greater commercial
object, to be obtained by this country than the making
of England independent of America for the supply of
the staple of her greatest manufacture—(hear, hear)—
and knowing how little bad been done for the purpose
of obtaining that object for the last thirty years, he was
desirous of seeing placed in the council representatives
of the great commercial towns which were most inte-
rested in the cotton manufacture, and others who wore
connected with the commerce of the country. Re was
aware that there would be some difficulty, in the first
instance, in managing these elections of members to the
council, but if the Secretary of State obtained the con-
currence of the representatives of the great towns to his
measures, he would stand in the House of Commons
witha degree of strength which no Minister who ap-
peared there merely with the support of eight nominees
of the Crown and as many nominees of a close corpora.
tion, could possess. What did the present bill propose t
It proposed that the council should be composed of eight
members nominated by the Crown, and of seven nomi-
nated by the council, and in order to dive them greater
independence, they wore to hold the office for life. He
admitted that a man who had a fair property for life was
likely to be more independent than a man who held it
on a more precarious tenure, but it [night happen, as it
had happened before, that persona who would not do
their own jobs might be tempted to do the jobs of others.
The council, as originally constituted, would be one
with which the public would be perfectly satisfied, but
none of them would be appointed at. a very early
period of life. They were dealing, however, with futu-
rity, they were endeavouring to establish some settled
form of government for India, and what he would ask
would be the position of the council souse ten years
hence, when many of the members must be worn out
and effete ? They would be in the position of a conclave
of cardinals when a Pope was about to die. Canvassing
would be constantly going on fortha succession of these
old and respectable men. But the House of Commons
had provided that one-tenth of the patronage should be
given by the council to the sons of officers in the service.
We considered that provision to be utterly unnecessary,
because with so many members of the council connected
with India, it would be humanly impossible that they
should not have a much larger share of patronage than
that. But one-tenth was a restriction. The Court of
Directors had always the good sense never to give any-
thing away as a body, because they knew perfectly well
that-it would lead to constant jobbing. (Hear.) They
gave their patronage as individuals, and on this principle
for excellent reasons, they bad always acted, But
under this bill constant canvassing would be going on
for patronage. These two provisions materially affected
the usefulness of the bill. The noble earl referred to the
clause which retained—for it did no more than that—
that power which was always exercised by the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control of sending letters to the
secret department of the Court of Directors. Now he
spoke from experience, and he admitted that there was
advantage in affording to that secret committee an oppor-
tunity of reading those letters, for though they had not
the power of stopping them, they bad the opportunity of
suggesting, which was sometimes very valuable. This
power of advising and suggesting was most important ; it
ought to be possessed by the new council ; and the minis •
ter of India ought to attend to those suggestions. As the
bill stood the Secretary of State might send an absolute
order to India which might affect the question ef peace or
war. The noble earl (Granville) had referred to the 55th
clause ; there wonll be a better opportunity of con-
sidering it in committee ; but he would observe that
they all seemed to be in error in suppot•ing that the
troops paid out of the revenue of India cortinued to be
paid out of that revenue when they lef: the shores of
India and were employe.i elsewhere. (thir.) That was
not so ; the pay out of the revenues of India was imrns-
diately stopped; and this regulation would continuo
unless the Secretary of State should, in the most scan-
dalous manner, take upon himself to act ieher wise. In
the Copt of Directors there wao always an honest body
to protect the revenues ~1 India against improper
charges. For instance, the expedition to China was paid
oukof those revenues while the troops were in India, but
not after they lefe Indhis ([fear, 'neon)._ In that case
this country had the benefit of the c xpediti in, and tee
object was not an Indian one. So in the expeditien to
Persia ; if India bad chosen to stand on her rights, who
might have refused to pay a farthing of that expense.
He feared that the operation of the clause as it stood
wool I be injurious: Areather .ctattee provided faat
notice should be Ova of. a war, and of the points
AiZamst which an army was to be uircot,d ; that their
lordships would see to be impossible. (II:ar.) As they
were now dealing with the question of the government
of India in England, it was impossible for him, holding
the strong opinions which he di I with reepot to thu
actual state of that country, not to state the impressions
which had been produced upon his mind by the neferrea-
tion which they had received during the is t month. He
never looked forward to the future in India with more
anxiety than be did at the present moment. He felt per-
featly satisfied that it was absolutely necessary to send to
thatimmteYe at the commencement of the cool season, a
very large—a much larger force than it was possible—
with consideration for other and very grave and vital in-
terests, to detach from this country without a material
change in all our military establishments.. (Hear.) Much
more •. however valuable it eitioht be to wield au increased
strength of troops, he did not believe that that increased
strcugtu would enable us to re-establish plans i. that
country, unless we sent with that army a policy intone
giblet and acceptable. (Hear.) The first act of her Ma-
jesty's Government, when her Majesty assumed in her
own person nominally the direction of the affairs in
India, must be in the most solemn manner (and the
Queen's word must be sacred) to reassure the people of
tnat country with respect to their religion and their ter-
ritorial riehts. (Rests) That policy mutt he, not to please
the House of Common", or to please people OA the host
lags—o+', still less, people on the platform ;it must be
addressed to the minds and hearts of the people of India.
We bad to govern India for India, and not so as to please
a party at home ; and the new Government ought to
make a deearation cf the principles upon which it was
to be governed such as might be thoroughly acceptable
and intelligible to the people. But liowever good the
policy we might declare—however great the additions
we might make to our armies—those additions and that
policy would fail of their object unless a man was at the
head of the Government. of India who had the confidence
of natives and Europeans, who was capable of directing
military operations, and who, by the weight of his per-
sonal authority, which in India was everything, was
capable of compelling all his subordinate officers to cc-
operate in his policy and to carry all his plans into ope-
ration. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE could not concur in
all that had fallen front the 1103/4110 ear !opposite, but he

bad expressed himself so clearly on the question under
discussion, that he felt himself relieved from the neces-
sity of saying much upon it. The great object which he
conceived would be gained by the bill was the removal
of the principle of the double Government, which had
hitherto acted so prejudicially in our Indian affairs ;
but admitting that to be its object, he was not satisfied
that it was attained. He considered that the council
would still act as a shield against responsibility, divert-
ing it from the Minister, and assisting him in nothing.
It was, in fact, a revival of the Court of Directors, under
another name, and in a different form. He complained
of the number of the council being fifteen, and said that
they were creating so many sinecure places. There were
other parts of the bill to which he entertained great ob-
jection, but he wou d refer to them in detail, in com
mittee, He contended that they ought not to disturb
I the present system of examination for the artillery in
India. If this bill became law in its present shape, not
many years would pass before many of its provisions
would have to be altered.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE said there was nothing
in the bill to get rid of the extravagance as regarded the
finances of India, of which they had so frequently com-
plained. They had squeezed 20 millions out of the people
of India, and they must either give up that country or
maintain it by disbursements from the national treasury.
The Earl of DERBY said that as be proposed to go
into committee on the bill tc-morrow, he would refrain
from saying anything in reply to the ov)s.ervatirens that
Mel been insde on the measure until that occasion.
The bill was read a second time, and was ordered to
be committed to-morrow.
The follovsing bills were read a third time and passed
—Universities and College Estates Bill ; Confirmation
of Executors, &c., Bill; Stanhope and Wolaingharn
Rectories Bill ; Eccletsiastscal Corporation Leasing _Bill;
Encumbered Estates (West Indies) Amendment BIL.
The f were read a second time—Sale and
Traoafer of Land (Irtlann) ; iNiavigation Ad van.les
(Ireland) Bill ; Prescriptions (Ireland) Bill.
Toe Joint Sock Banking Companies Bill pawed
hrough committee.
The house adjourned at eight o'clock

HOUSE OF COMMONS—( ESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Earl of Fife's Estate, Holroyd's Estate, and Sir
Benjamin Hall's Es'.ate Bills were read a third time and
passed. _

SUPPLY.
The houso went into supply. The following votes
were agreed to :-
432,9901. for the disembodied- militia.
133,0001. for barrack accammodation.
65,0001; foe the survey of the United Kingdom, and
fur the typographical department.
10001. for the keeper of the registry of patents.
20,0001. for the expenses of the Wellington monu-
ment.
CORRUPT PRACTICES PREVENTION Acr
CONTINUANCE BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill.
Mr. V. SMITH complained it was not merely a con-
tinuance bill, because it contained a clause sanctioning
the payments for the cunereyance of voters to the poll.
He considered they ought only to pass a continuance
bill at that late period nt the session, and not introduce
a new principle.
Mr. WALPOLE said there were many conflicting de-
cisions in law respecting the legality of such payments,
and he thought it right that advantage should be taken
of the bill to•settle many doubtful points, such as defin-
ing what was a member at an election ; secondly, to alter
the remuneration to be paid to the election auditor : at
present it was by poundage on the first 1/. spent, and he
proposed to pay him 101. up to 2001. expended, and a
poundage after ; and
.thirdly, to isettle the question of
conveying voters to the poll.
After some further remarks in which Col. French,
Mr. Rebow, Mr. Bentinck, Lord H. Vane, and Mr.
Gibson took part,
The house went into committee on the bill.
On clause 1, which related to the payment of the tra-
veliiag expenses of voters,
Mr. D. GRIFFITHS moved an amendment prohi-
biting the payment of such expenses. It would open
the door to wholealo bribery.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD supported the clause.
Mr. AYRTON considered the law made it illegal to
pay voters' travAling expenses, but not to provide
conveyances, and he thought such a clause as this would
meet the difficulty :—" That it shall be lawful for any
person to provide conveyance for any voter for the pur-
pose of an election, but it shall not be lawful to pay any
money or give any valuable consideration to a voter for
or in respect of his travelling expenses for such
purpose."
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE said the clause legalised
travelling expenses, but the decision in "Cooper v.
Slade" laid it down that if the expenses were paid to the
voter on condition that he voted in a particular manner
it would be bribery. It was, therefore, necessary to
avoid future difficulty, that the clauses should go further
and specify that such a payment should not be con-
sidered bribery.
Mr. WALPOLE proposed to alter the clause to the
effect that it should ee lawful for any candidate to pay
the cost of conveyance bona fide incurred in taking a
voter to the poll, and that such payment should not be
deemed bribery. He should oppose the amendment be-
fore
the c,intnittee.
Mr. GREER considered it would be batter to omit
the clause altogether. The difficulty might be got over
by multiplying the polling places.
After some remarks from Mr. H. BAILLIZ relative to
the conveyance of voters to the poll in the Orkneys,
Mr. V. SMITH contended this clause would open a
wide door to bribery. They had declared a ss. dinner
ticket to a man who generally expended only is. for
his dinner bribery, and there would be as much bribery
in the excitement of a man riding iu a first-class car-
riage who always rode in a third class carriage, or a
man's riding in a carriage that always rode in a, cart,
as in the dinner ticket. He contended the principle of
paying travelling expenses was a very important one,
and ought not to have been introduced into a mere con-
tinuance bill.
After some further discussion, in which Mr, Brady,
Mr. Lowe, Mr. Whiteside, and Mr. Byng took part,
Lord H. VANE urged that conveyances should be
provided for voters, otherwise poor voters would, in a
majority of instances, bo virtually disfranchised. He
thought the suggestion of the hon. member for the
Tower Hamlets would meet the difficulties of the case.
(Hear, hear.)
After some further discussion,
The committee divided. Tho numbers were
For the amendment 7O
Against it 165
Majority —95

The amendment was lost.
Mr. STAPLETON then moved an amendment that
it should be lawful to convey electors to the poll in coun-
ties, but not in boroughs.
Mr. WALPOLE opposed the amendment. If it was
necessary for counties, it was in many boroughs, and he
knew of no place where cabs and omnibuses were so
much employed for conveying voters to the poll as in
the metropolitan boroughs. (Hear, hear.)
After some discussion the amendment was negatived.
Mr. AYItTON moved an amendment in accordance
with his suggestion at an early period of the discussion,
as given above. His object was to make the rich seek
after the pocr.
Mr. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN moved in clause
1, line 15, to leave out all after " pay," and insert
" travelling expenses to voters resident above one mile
from their place of polling : Provided always, tbat such
payments shall not exceed one shilling per mile
to every such voter for any distance less than
10.milesi, and sixpence per mile fur every additional
mile pr3vided also, that if the distance to be travelled
by any such voter exceed ten miles, and there be avail-
' able railway accommodation, the payments for travelling
expenses shall not exceed the maximum rate of fare
chargeable on such railway for such distance."
Mr. WALPOLE considered that if they imposed
any limits, as proposed by the second amendment,
they would only increase the difficulty of this ease, and
considering the amendment cf the hon. and learned
mow her for the Tower Hamlets to be better them his
own provision and that of the second amendment, he
had no hesitation in adopting it. (Hear, hear.)
After some discusEion, in which various hon. members

took part,
Mr. Clt UF
opposed the clause. He was pre
Et I)
pared to defeat the bill by every means in his power,
and continued speaking until he was stopped at 10 mi-
nutes to four o'clock by the forms of the house, when
the Chairman reported progrev, and the house resumed.
Tile other orders were unposed of, and the house sus-
pended its sitting at 4 o'cl.:ck.
The hou.-io resumed zet t;
SiTP.ERANNUATIP..)Ti BILL.
Mr. 3. WILSON asked whether it was the intention
of the Government to proceed with the Superannuation
Bill during the present session'' .
Tne CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, must
decline givolg a decisive answer for a. couple of day,.
THE EXPLOSION IN WESTMINSTER-ROAD.
Mr. BOWYER asked whether the attention of i3ro-
vernineuthad been called to the dreadful accident which
had recently happened over the water, by which a large
number of pet suns had been seriously injured. He wished
also to know whether it was intended to bring in a bill
to prevent the manufacture of dangerous substances
within a ccrtaip distance of inhabited house?
Mr. WALPOLE said that his attention had been
called to the accident alluded to, but he was not aware
whether the Legislature could interfere in the matter.
.Tue sul.j.ct ', however, receive his best conside-
ration.