The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-13 00:00:00

the consequence was that the Brazilian 14i inister was
obliged to appear before the Chamber, and to ) declare it
was utterly impossible for the Government to contend
against the determination of a country lik. 1 England.
And now, to refer to the committee of 1853, , what was
the language of that committee 1 Why, in tl ieir report
they said it was gratifying to find that the i slave trade
on the coast of Africa was in a different stet e from what
it was in the year 1848, and that it had b• ion so much
reduced ; and they trusted that the efforts for its sup-
pression would be persevered in. Upon wl nit evidence
did his hon. friend rely for the support of his views ?
His hon. friend seemed to forget that it was , after hear-
ing the evidence of Captain Hamilton and i Sir Charles
Hotham that the committee came to the co n elusion to
which he had just referred. Again, the tes 'idence of
Mr. Bandinell had been influenced by the ate tistics of
Dr. Clift, who was himself interested in t he slave
trade. On the other hand, what were the , results
before them ? Why, upon a line of coast of 2,a 00 miles
the trade had been entirely suppressed, and in 1 feu of it
had sprung up a native traffic in cotton and pr are oil of
the most remarkable character. Now that tra %lc must
inevitably be destroyed if the squadron was wit bdrawn.
Then, again, let them consider what would be th, I fate of
the various Christian missions in Africa if the sq undron
was withdrawn. Why, even the American missionaries
had recognised the vast protection which they derived
from that squadron. Well, then, after having paid Sp sin
a sum of 400,0001. to induce her to enter into treaties
with us ; after having gone out into the world ever v-
where soliciting allies to our policy, could they now tuns
round and say they were ready to dismiss that nation
from that contracts No, he sincerely trusted the house
would adhere to its opinions of 1849, and give no sanc-
tion to a retrograde policy. (Cheers.)
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said that as the opinions
which he should lay before the house were similar to
those with which the house had just been favoured, he
should have preferred if some one with opposite views
had risen to address it ; still he believed they would not
los unwillisg to grant him an audience, inasmuch as he
had it in his power to lay before them some important
facts with respect to the present condition of the slave
trade. But in the first place he must be permitted to
say that he believed the country would be but little in-
clined hastily to reverse the policy which had been so
considerately adopted. Again, he would ask, did any
one imagine that if England had not taken up the firm
position that :she did upon this question that Portugal
and Brazil would have been induced to follow the same
course. The hon. gentleman had called his own policy
successful. Now, upon that point be (rlr. Fitzgerald)
had come to conclusions entirely different from those
of the hoe. gentleman ; and in confirmation of his con-
clusions he would state in the first place that while 15
years ago the 'member of slaves lexported annually
from Africa amounted to 155,900, the numbers imported,
. on the average of the iast three years into Cuba were
only 15,000. (Hear, hears) While, within the last few
years, the value of the experts in articles of legitimate
commerce bad increased so esorrnoasly as to amount at
j present to considerably more than 2,000,060/. And
' while a few years ago not a single puncheon of palm oil
was procurable from the Bight of Benin, the quantity
exported last year amounted in value to not less than
, 700,0001, Now, what he wanted to impress upon the
bouse was, that although they might not have succeeded
in putting down the slave trade entirely, yet they had
seasneeded in rendering its pursuit so difficult that in an
imereense district on the west coast of Africa the people
Lae aurrd,r,(l th.rnßelves to legitimate traffic, and he
was bound here to testify to the chivalrous eff..] t 3 of tLe
Portugueee Government in putting down slavery, and if
there was one person of that nation whose efforts were
more particularly worthy of recognition, it was those of
the Viscount ...laldanha. (Hear, hear.) Looking to the
information &at was before them, he must say that it
was not to India, it was not to other countries which
had been spoken of, that they ought to look for a further
supply of cotton, but it was to Africa. One of our con-
suls there wrote that ?test year the exportation of cotton
and cotton goods from eNfrica to Brazil amounted to no
less than 7,200,0001b5. weight, so that befeTe many years
elapsed England might expect to receive a very large sup-
ply of cotton.from Africa. ,He had so hesitation in say-
ing that the French had no intention to co-operate in
this traffic. When the emigrants arrived in the Freno:a
colony, they were carefully attended to. He had even
the regulations which were adopted with regard to them,
and he was of opinion that there could be nothing better
for their protection, but at the same time her Ma-
jesty's Government had represented to the French
Government that buying men and setting them free in
French colonies, must necessarily lead to the continuance
of the slave trade on the coast of Africa. It was impos
sible to suppose that if the Freaeh purchased from the
chiefs those who were, already slaves, those chiefs would
not have recourse to war as before, in order to obtain
them. He might refer to an article which appeared that
morning in one of the morning papers, taken from the
Revue des Deu.-e Mendes, which expressed a hope on the
part of a very eminent writer that the French Govern-
ment would at once inquire into the matter, and take
care that that whichlwae intended as a benefit, namely,
to obtain free labour, should not lead to the continuance
of the slave trade, and he thought, therefore, that the
hon. member for Gateshead's prophecy woull not be re-
alised. The hon. gentleman had referred to differences
which he had reason to believe would take place between
the United States of America and England, and which
he thought might throw additional difficulties in the way
of our abolition of the slave trade. With reference to
that point, he would repeat what he had stated on a pre•
vious occasion, namely, that her Majesty's Government
bad not cousiJered themselves justified, or that it "was
worthy of the dignity of a great nation, to urge a plea
which was not warranted in fact. They said, on the con-
trary, that they were ready to proceed on the plan pro-
posed, that where the flag of America was not fairly
barns on a vessel in which it was seen, that there we
should exercise not the right, but that we might take
upon ourselves the risk to see whether that ship properly

represented itself. General Cass had stated that this
was a right that they should not have scrupled to make
use of themselves, and that he could not but look upon
it as a most satisfactory statement. That morning be
bad received an opinion of General Cass, in refer-
ence to the course which his Government
had taken upon that difficult question, and so far
from showing that we bad difficulties in our way,
the house would be glad to hear that the course taken
by her Majesty's Government had been properly esti-
mated by the Government of America, which he believed
would lead to the adoption of some course which would
sweep away for ever all those difficulties to which the
hon. gentleman the member for Gateshead had alluded.
He had received that morning a letter from Lord
Napier, in which he said that General Cass stated to
him his opinion that the course taken by her Majesty's
Government was worthy of a great and generous coun-
try, which was ready to recognise an error inconside.
retely committed. Lord Napier added that General
Cass assured him most emphatically of his confidence in
the declarations made by her Majesty's Government,
and that the Government of the United States would at
once give their' earnest and attentive consideration to
any proposal which her Majesty's Government might
suggest for the protection of the nationality of vessels,
and the right of the flag under which they sailed. (Hear,
hear.) He thought, therefore, that the hon. gentleman
the member for Gateshead might disabuse his mind of
their having in view a prospect of difficulties between
this country and America, which would prevent the
Government maintaining that just and humane policy
which had been for so many years the pride and beast
of this country. (Hear, hear.) He would only add
that a short time ago he informed the house that it had
been a matter of consideration on the part of the Govern-
ment whether it was necessary to withdraw the squa-
dron from the coast of Cuba. It was obvious that as
long as we were on that coast unsupported and uncoun-
tenanced by the American Government in the highway
of their commerce, we might run the risk of detaining
some vessel engaged in legitimate commerce. That diffi-
culty would no longer exist, for General Cass bad informed
Lord Napier that ships of the American Government
proceeding to the Cuban waters had received instructions
of the same character as those proceeding to the coast
of Africa, while the present American squadron on the
coast of Cuba would be prepared to co-operate with us
upon the most friendly footing. He (Mr. Fitzeeral
expressed his earnest hope that the house would not
sanction the proposal of the hon. gentleman the men:
ber for Gateshead, for the Government bad adopted their
policy from no sordid motives. It was a policy they
lead maintained solely with a view to the maintenance
of the rights of humanity and to promote the of jset of
Christian civilisation. For himself he might say that it
was a gratification to him that thus, on the threshold of
pa bi.c life, although in a subordinate position, he was
able to express,-on the part of her Majestee Govern-
ment, their determination not to give up that- policy for
which so many eminent men bad struggled, and which
he.hoped it would always be the pride of this country to
maintain. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON said that jcdging from the speech
of the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, he was
induced to believe that there was very little difference
between the views of the Government and those of the
hon. member for Gateshead, who never intended to in•
elude in his motion the vessels of those nations who had
granted tut a right by treaty to search their ships. With
those nations with which we had special rights he did
not propose to interfere, but what he did say was, that
we should not in an indiscriminate manner authorise
our naval officers to search foreign ships with a view to
the slave trade. Now that was exactly what the Go-
vernment was going to do. It seemed that now a
rational course was to be pursued, that the Ameri-
can Goverment were to look after the ships bear-
ing the American fag, and that England was to
exercise the legitimate jurisdiction it possessed over

English vessels, but we were to desist from visiting
vessels under • foreign flags merely • from speculations

on slave traffic ; that was to say, England was to
have the right of visiting English vessels to ascertain
whether there were slaves on board, and Americans

were to have the same privilege. He was gad to see that
this policy of visiting, ships in Cuban waters had been
discontinued by her visiting ships
Government. (Hear.) He
felt convinced that such a course could not have been
persevered in without leading to most serious cense-
quences. It was clear that we never bad any right to
search or visit ships except they were F.egii.b ves.3els or
vessels of countries which had granted us a r ght by
special treaty, and he considered that our proceedings
in Cuban waters had been a violation of the law of
nations'. ; He thought that her Maj ,sty's Government
deserverkthe. thanks of Parliament and the country for
orderiag,our officers to discontioue the course they bad
hitherto adopted. The hon. gentleman, the Under Set r..-
tary for the Foreign Department, bad told the honset
in reference to the general policy of the Government on
the coast of Africa, that he anticirated the best results
from it. 'He said that there had been increased trade and
increased exportations of various articles. He hoped the
bon. gentleman might not discover that all this had been
the result of slave labour, and that the slave trade had
been by these means increased. The hon. gentleman

commerce, and say that trade in goods and in slaves was
incompatible. That was an error. The trade in slaves
had gone on from the beginning, and the increase in
other trades was owing to the increase of demand. Our
endeavour to put down the slave trade was no cause of
the increase of legitimate trade. It was really a stain on
oar name that we had bullied Brazil, and truckled to
America. Brazil, though she imported slaves had made
the slave trade a piracy. We passed our acts of Parlia-
ment, which we said should be at an end as soon as the
slave trade was put an end to. That had occurred, and
we took credit for it, but the fact was the trade went on
until the Brazilians themselves put it down, because they
found the black population was increasing to an extent
that they regarded ae dangerous. It behoved us, by re-
pealing that act of Parliament, to give that to a less
powerful state, Brazil, which we were yielding to a more
powerful nation, the States of America. The arguments
he had used had not been answered. The right hon.
member for the University of Oxford had made a bril-
-1 ant speech, but had given the go-by to his arguments.
(A. laugh.) If it could not be shown that our efforts had
tended to put down the slave trade, it was useless to
talk about the increase of trade. It was very well to talk
of the horrors of the passage, but the effects of our
effirte had been to increase those miseries. They were
packed in barrels, which would not be done if the
trade were left open. This was done at a risk, but
that risk was covered if only a small proportion
were landed. The motion was a humane one. The
failure was owing to France and America, but they were
too strong for us. We were wise to yield, for a war with
America would be ten times more disastrous than
the sieve trade. America did not mean to put down
the trade, nor would she give us any right of visita-
tion. Any slaver would only have to hoist that bit of
bunting—the stare and stripes—and we could not search
her. The squadron was to be removed from Cuba, and
any trader in human flesh need only hoist the flag of the
freest country in the world to cover his human cargo.
He congratulated our free cousins on that result. We
had failed in our efforts to put down the slave trade in
consequence of their conduct, and the shame was not ours
but theirs.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The speech of the hon. mem-
ber for Sheffield has formed an exception to the almost
unanimity which has hitherto distinguished this debate,
and, though it supported the views of the hon. member
for Gateshead, it certainly was no answer to the able
speeches of the right hon. member for Oxford, and of
my hon. friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs.
(Hear.) As to the speech of the right hon. member for
Ashton, though it also was in favour of the motion be-
fore us, every one must have felt that it was delivered in
an entirely different sense front the speech of the mem-
ber for Gateshead. The house Las a right to complain
that the speeeloof the member for Gateshead wa3 not, in
accordance with his motion. The first notice which the
bon, member gave was to call attention to the continu-
ance of the squadron ; he afterwards altered his motion
to one respecting the right of visit and search, but every
one must feel that his speech was mainly directed to get-
ting rid of the squadron altogether. (Hear.) The hon.
and learned member for Sheffield has spoken in the
same sense. He tells us that our efforts to pat down the
slave trade have entirely failed, and that the best thing
we can do is to withdraw our cruisers. I deny altoge,
ther that that assertion is supported by facts. (Hear.)
We may not have succeeded to the extent that we de-
sae, ut here enee-eeli• toel eireret thinge, and if it
were not for our efforts the slave trade would nit,vu
far more active. (Hear.) In the years 1856.7-8, the Bra-
zilian slave trade was enormously large, our squadron
on the coast of Africa was in consequence very largely in-
creased, and within a few years after that the Brazilian
slave trade was at an end. In giving evidence bef re the
committee.; of 1848 the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton said he thought it was sanguine to expect that the
Brazilian slave trade would be reduced in 10 years as low
as the Cuban slave trade then was, but by the efforts of
our cruisers, aided no doubt by circumstances in Brazil,
the noble lord's expectations were exceeded, and within
two or three years the Brazilian slave trade bad ceased.
The Cuban slave trade was then low, but it revived soon
after, and that revival was caused mainly by the weaken-
ing of our squadron rendered necessary by the Russian
war. The hon. and learned gentleman says that Cabe,
notwithstanding our cruisers, can get as many slaves as
ever she wants, but the fact is directly the reverse.
From the latest accounts we have received it is certain
that notwithstanding the revival of the slave trade, so
grest is the difficulty found in importing a sufficient
number of slaves into the island to maintain cultivation,
they have recently been reduced, as an experiment, to
import a considerable number of Indians from Yucatan.
(Hear, hear.) I do hope that this house, for the sake of
a great policy so long maintained, will unanimously de-
cide against doing away with the squadron. But the
suppression of the slave trade is not the only benefits
which will flow from the maintenance of the squadron.
If our efforts are continued—if the slave trade is not
allowed to revive—Africa is the quarter to which we may
look with greater certainty than to any other fur our
future suppdes of cotton. (Hear, hear.) With regard to
the argument which has been used that the station is
unhealthy for our sailors, I can only say that that is not
the conclueion at which I have arrived after all the in-
quiries which I have made. No doubt, to those who go
on shore, or navigate the rivers, the climate of Africa is
dangerous, but for the cruisers who keep at sea the sta-
tion is no more unhealthy than many others to which
our sailors are sent. lam informed, moreover, that the
station is by no means unfavourable to the discipline of
the navy. I must say that I think great praise is duo to
the officers who have had command of these squa-lronv.
They have had a very difficult and delicate duty to dia.
charge, and speaking generally, they have performed
it with great discretion and ability. Tee hon. and
learned member says that her Majesty's Government
have truckled to the United States. I give a distinct
denial to that assertion. There was nothing in the lan-
guage used by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs
to justify it. Her Majesty's Government have met the
Government of the United States in a frank and conci-
liatory spirit, and the Government of the United States
have respouded in a frank, conciliatory, and generous
manner, and we have reason to hope that the result will
be that arrangements will be made between the two
countries for some definite mode of verifying the flag as-
sumed by vessels and avoiding the extreme difficulties
which surround this question. (Hear.) Should such be
the result I think the house will admit we shall have
reason to be grateful frr the slight difference which has
for a moment interrupted the relations between the two
countries. (Hear.) I regret;that the hon. gentleman does
not intend to press his motion to a division, for I think
it would be satisfactory to the public to see the over-
whelming majority by which I am sure the policy which
England has so long maintained would be supported.
(Cheers.)
Mr. BUXTON supported the continuance of the
cruisers off the coast of Africa. Ile considered they an-
swered two purposes, one, the suppression cf piracy, and
the other the suppression of the slave trade. He denied
that the cruisers were the cause of increasing the horrors
of the " middle passage." The same horrors that now
prevailed eiisted before the establishment of a
squadron off the coast of Africa. The slave ship bad
now but one deck instead of several, and the passage
was completed in a less space of time than formerly, so
that to a certain extent the horrors of the middle pas-
sage had been modified. He proceeded to show that
our ships cruising off the coast and at the mouths of the
rivers disturbed the operations of the slavers, and when
they had those valuable cargoes on board they run the
risk of being captured before they arrived at their desti-
nation. Surely that must check the trade. What
would it be if the slavers were free to make their
arrangements at their leisure, and arrive and depart
at their pleasure. The establishment of •a squadron
was an experiment, but it had worked well. It was only
during the Russian war, when the squadron was dimin-
ished, that the trade began to revive and apparently
flourish. Our consul at Caba stated that during the
flourishing slave year of 1856 he believed there were not
more than QOOO or 7,000 slaves imported into that island.
Slaves cost about ten dollars, and fetched in Cuba be-
tween 401. and 801., which showed there must be some
official obstacle to enhance the price, and he contended it
arose from our squadron being a serious impediment in
the way of the slave trade. The squadron had probably
not been efficient in destroying the slave trade, but it had
had the effect of keeping it down from rising to seven
or eight timer; its present amount. The west coast of Africa
produc,d articles valuable to this country, and he believed
if cotton was to be extensively cultivated there, it would
abeerb the African population in free labour, and be a
f urth•:r check on slavery. He had read an extract from Lieu-
tenant May's despatches to Lord Clarendon in November
last, speaking in high terms of the industry and intellect
of the inhatinints. There was a prospect of a rapid
growth on the west coast of Africa of commerce advan-
tageous to this country, but the slave trade was the
death of legitimate commerce. It therefore appeared to
him that there was a magnificent prospect for legitimate
commerce on the west coast of Africa if they could only
get rid of the slave trade. (Rear.) To let loose the
slave trade in Africa would be nothing more than letting
loose war, havoc, and ruin on that country, and lower
ourselves in the eyes of the civilised world, (Hear.) If
we pursue our present course it would be found a wise
one, but the other couree, if adopted, would be a penny
wise and pound foolish one. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET could not 'understand how it was
hon. members urged that the officers of her Majesty's
navy considered the slave trade eves to be put down by
the keeping up a squadron on the coast of Africa. Ile
had his pocket full of letters he lied received Irons offa
core on that coast, stating that their efforts were futile
for the suppression of the slave traffic. (Hear.) Admi-
ral Bruce, lively on the African station, stated that the
suppression of the slave trade could never be effected
whilst America and Spain imported them. He (Lord
Pagel) c uuld speak from experienee of the horrors of
our se stem. It hail been his lot to capture tso slavers,
and although it occurred some years ago he should never
forget a scene that was beyond description. Ile on one
oecasien chased a slave I rig for 17 hour., and afierwarde
captured her, when he found 480 wretched creatures on
board. These poor creaturee had been for 17 hours un-
able to move—they had been without any food and water
during that time, and he found 430 raving mad creatures
on board that ship, and the scene beggared ail descrip-
tion. (Hear.) This was not an isolated case, and every
officer who went in chase of a slaver involved the poor
creature in a similar amount of misery. (Hear, hear.)
No gentleman can realise from what be reads the misery
her Majesty's officers and men sustained on the
meat of Africa. The station was injurious to our own
officers and men, and although the majority of
them returned aith the ships, nine-tenths of them came
home with their constitutions destroyed. He considered
they were misleading the public by keeping a squadron
an the coast, and if the getien Lad been introduced

said the slave trade had diminished, that not so many
slaves as formerly were now exported from the coast of
Africa, Well that might be the case, and for a very good
reason. The demand for slaves in the Brezils had lately
ceased, and they did not require that amount of slave
labour which they formerly employed, and which was
produced on the coast of Africa. All who now carried
on the slave trade -were Spain and Cuba, and to a con-
siderable extent our dear friends the Turks on the IVledi•
terranean, and these got as many as they required. He
undertook to say that no member of that house would
assert that those who dealt in slaves could not easily ob-
tain as many as they pleased. (Hear.) Then the situation
we were in was clearly this—we were paying a million a
year, or something like it, to obtain an extension of mari-
time police to put down the slave trade; and those
who required slaves were getting as many as they wanted.
(Hear.) There was evidently something wrong there.
Either the system was utterly inadequate, or it was an
unmitigated evil in itself. (Hear.) What then was the
effect of the squadron ? It was this, that Cuba got as
many slaves as she required, but in order to supply her
demand a greater number had to be exported from
Africa, to allow fir that margin which would he occa.
sioned by our capturing or liberating any of them on the
passage. These were sent in less roomy vessels, lees
attention was paid to their health, and various expedi-
ents were resorted to, fatal to the unfortunate slaves,
to elude the English cruisers. So that for the sake of
capturing a very small percentage of slaves from Africa
to Cuba, a great amount of suffering and death was in-
flicted upon the great body of those who wore exported.
He believed it could be proved that this country was
extending the miseries of the slave trade to an increased
number of Africans, and we fancied because we captured
a few and liberated them, we were suppressing the
slave trade. (Hear.) He could not understand why
the operations of the squadron had done so mach for
Bread and nothing for Cuba. In Brazil the slave trade
had been abolished by the force of public opinion, for it
was a mistake to suppose that we in England monopolised
all the moral feeling of the world, and that no other
nations were alive to the obligations of morality and re-
ligion. Other nations were able to view the slave trade
in the same light as ourselves, Brazil viewed it in that
light, and the Brazilian government passed a law to cease
that trade, elthough it had been untouched by the squad-
ron. (Hear.) It had been said that the squadron had
exercised a very beneficial effect upon the Brazils. He
(Mr. Gibson) did not believe it. Ho believed that if
there had been French cruisers in the Channel when
we had slaves, that fact would not have tended much to
pacify as. He believed that the squadron and
the Brazilian Act of 1845 tended very much to
put off the time when the Brazilian Legislature
was inclined to legislate upon this subject, and that the
slave trade would have ceased much sooner if it had not
been for that offensive act of Parliament to capture Bra-
zilian vessels, and English law courts to deal with them
without any treaty rights to make any such enactments.
His principal object that night was to ask the house to
repeal the Brazilian Act of 1845. The committee of
1853, of which he believed the present First Lord of the
Admiralty and the president of the Board of Control
were members stated in their report that the cessation of
the slave trade in the Brazile, furnished a reason why
the Government should repeal the act of 1845. Now,
what was the relation of the Brazils with regard to the
slave trade? It was that if any subject of the Emperor
of Brazil were found involved in this trade it should be
regarded as an act of piracy. That was their engage-
ment with this country, and it had been fulfilled to the
letter. An adequate machinery bad been established in
Braza to give .....;._. t,,, t.1..1. 1... v, rnd '--s had no cause
whatever for maintaining that Brazilian act of 1.64 j
which was only passed upon the giound that the Bra-
zilian Government had failed in fulfilling its treaty
obligations to this country. He (Mr. Gibson) was in the
house when that act was passed, and he protested against
it at the time. Lord Aberdeen, who was at that time
Foreign Minister, made a promise to Parliament, which
was communicated to the Brazilian Government, that
when the slave trade had ceased, or Brazil had entered
into treaty arrangements with this country to put it
down that act should be repealed. Those events had
occurred, and he thought it was the bounden duty of
this country to see that its promise should be fulfilled, I
and the act of 1845 repealed. The export trade of
Brazil with England amounted to between twelve and
t iiii:een millions a-year. Englishmen held a large
amouu!• of shares in their railways, and interest
upon their flat. Under these circumstances, and that
the slave trade was suppressed there, it beh'ed Eng-
land to strike off its statute-book that offensive law, and
to place the relations between the t-vo countries upon a
more satisfactory footing. The right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Cardwell) bad spoken of the missionaries, whose
advocate he bad become ; but he (Mr. Gibson) had
spoken to many missionaries, and he found that univer-
sally they relied upon the doctrines and the opinions
they taught, and not upon the broadsides of our men of
war. The same views were held by the British and
Foreign Slave Society, whose report spoke strongly upon
this matter, and urged the abolition of the Brazilian act
of 1845. The report of this society (portions of which
the right hon. gentleman read) also showed that the
Turks were extensively engaged in the traffic of young
negroee, who suffered most fearfully from Oriental cupi-
dity. This traffic it was alleged had greatly increased
since the war. When they considered that the only two
countries which carried on the slave trade, Turkey and
Spain, both of which were deeply indebted to England,
some other Enemas should be taken of reaching them than
the miserable little squadron we had now engaged.
When the Ottoman Porte and the Government of Spain
'were convinced of the soundness of our moral views,
they would no doubt take measures to put down this
iniquitous trade. (Hear.)
Mr. A. MILLS thought it was very important that
it should be borne in mind that Spain had received a
large amount of money from us for the suppression of
the slave trade, and that it bad violated ,all treaty en-
gagemente. He shared in the satisfaction which had
bee❑ expressed in the statement of the Under
Secretary of State for the Home Department, for it
showed that the American difficulties were over, and
that although in this matter we had two unfaithful

allies, we bad entered upon better days. He hoped
that upon this subject they would ►have some ex-
pression of opinion from the noble lord the member for
Tiveton•

Mr. GURNEY considered our past efforts for the re-
pression of the slave trade bad been eminently successful.
AR agreed that the slave trade and legitimate commerce
could not co-exist in the same locality. It was clear that
no difference of opinion existed upon that point, and it
might be remembered that in his evidence before a com-
mittee of that house, Sir Charles Hotharo, a high au' ho-
rity, said the two could not co-exist for any length of
time, that the two could not permanently extend them-
selves, and that where the two prevailed, slavery would
beat the other completely out of the market. The
honourable gentleman gave a very encouraging view of
the export of cotton from West Africa to Brazil,
supporting his views by voluminous statistics,
The heathen natives had entered into legitimate com-
merce. He thought all experience was in favour of the
system adopted by Admiral Bruce, that of preventing
the ensbarkation of negroes rather than trying to capture
them after embarkment. There was a very considerable
trade carried on by negro traders, who embarked small
cargoes. This trade was much checked by the weight
of duties, and one great hardship was that a ship break-
mg bulk at Sierra Leone or 'Bathurst to land a small
portion of the cargo paid tonnage on the whole, as if the
oargo had been landed. _ _

Sir G. B. PECHELL said that if this motion was
agreed to the cotton trade would entirely disappear,
falling a prey to the pirates along the coast. To give up
the right of search would be to abandon all our treaties
with Spain, with the native chiefs, &e., after paying an
enormous price, 400,000/. which with the interest would
now amount to 030,0001., to Spain for this very right.
Sir C. NAPIER recommended the employment of a
large number of steamers on the coast of Africa. If that
class of vessels had been employed when the squadron
was first formed the slave trade would long have ceased
to exist. One objection he had to the present system
was the mode of rewarding officers and men by prize-
money. He did not desire to see slavers captured so
much as to prevent slavers from leaving the coast. No
doubt the officers and seen employed upon that station
deserved reeard, and he would give them double pay,
but at present the prize-money was an encouragement
to officers (although be did not Ray that they acted upon
it) to allow the embarkation of slaves, He was informed
that the extent of the coast to be watched was only about
1,500 miles, and 15 or 20 small steamers would soon put
an end to the slave-trade there. The right hon. gentle-
man the member for Ashton (IVIr. Gibson) appeared to
confoUnd the right of search with the right of visit. We
bad never possessed the right of search 'as r ecarded
America, but the right of visit was a different thing. A
ship might pass ahead of a vessel whose character it was
desirable to know, and dropping a boat might send on
board and ask- to see .her papers.without at all delaying.
her voyage. They bad 'no right to open a hatchway. if
England had been allowed to search American vessele,
and America to search English vessels, the slave trade
might have been soon put down. He was glad to hoar
that the Under Secretary of State was about to take a
course satisfactory to both parties, and hoped that hence-
forward England would not be called upon to apologise
for every trifling excess of duty on the part ef English
captains. All chance of quarrelling with America
would be removed if strict orders were given to all cap-
tains of English vessels to f 'flow suspected slavers, and
if they were found to be American nut to interfere with
them.
Mr. ROEBUCK had often considered this question,
putting
himself in the condition of the slave, and canal-
dering what he should do if any ono made him a slave ?
-(1 laugh.) His answer was, that he should use every
means in his power to make himself so dangerous to his
master that he would not wish to have another slave.
{Rear, hear.) Let them not then iceagine, from any-
thing ho should say, that he was a friend to the slave
trade. It wee an unholy traffic, not more degrading to
the slave than to the master and all engaged in it. it
was the greatest stain humanity bed ever brought on
itself. (near, hear.) What the question of the hon.
gentleman sought was, that all our vessels should in
future desist from exercising any right of visitatieu or of
search. He differed from the ipia,arit admiral, who mad,
a distinction between the right of search and the right Of
visit, and said We were entitled to one hut not to the
other,

He held that we had no right to either. We
were now about to give up all attempt to maintain a
right of visitation of American vessels. Our attempts

had bee❑ to prevent the exportation, not the importation
of slaves. Those attempts had utterly failed. Cuba ob-
tained as many slaves as she wanted, and as we had in-
creased the difficulty of exportation, the effect was that
a larger number was embarked to make up for losses.
We had, in fact, increased the number ex-

ported and not diminished the number received. Our
endeavours had been wholly mischievous, our philan-
thropy had injured mankind. Our loss of money and
risk of war had been wholly nugatory. He wanted that.
answered. It wasnot enough to point out iticreaco in

THE SUN,

earlier, he should have been prepared to have eb.ovvn its
beneficial working before a committee if one had been
appointed. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON wished, in explanation, to say
that he had not represented the station as a healtbyone.
What be had said was that the officers on it did not suffer
more from ill health than did the officers on some other
stations. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that the object of his hon.
friend's (Mr. Hutt'e) motion seemed to be to put an end
to all naval operations for the suppression of the slave
trade ; and the right hon. gentleman the member for
Ashton (Mr. M. Gibson) urged the house to ask the Go-
vernmente
cis
podmpnofeel ioncssAßsesuhtrtrifeiiirdadatbizeterelaithe
hi.ri
roweettauneooss:hun;
ha:ald,rescindanvdtobevdscuu:tenebtranagtashstedietidtsmihhla
eyeiehwTdynlei
:haftnauewlt;:
all knew,
m(
keprb:
inb)
eeeeteereni applicableowioatdsouwn:mmscooeoecafo mpodbrhan
commerce
trsemm.oaechprttl
eoscihartnenewet .
leet see
fl
rtraoiet ve
hante
cdl tcce rowoauar
nd:t
v rvm
ea
t wasitoh ne
and said, " Perish commerce ; live the slave trade."
(Oh, oh). If mere assertion was sufficient, his hon. friend's
case would be unanswerable, because ho had gone on from
assertion to assertion ; but unfortunately all his assertions
bad been diametrically opposite to the fact. (Laughter.)
Hon, gentlemen said our policy had not been successful.
Our policy bad been eminently successful. The hon.
gentleman had said that oar squadron had increased the
sufferings of the negroes. That assertion had been
proved to be diametrically opposite to the fact. The
hon. gentleman had asserted that as long as there was a
demand at Cuba there would be a supply to meet it.
Now, it was notorious that the supply at present fell far
short of the demand. (Hear.) Within the last four
or five years wo had put an end to the slave trade
on the coast of Brazil. (Hear, hear.) Oa that coast
no less than 70,000 slaves were landed every year ; and
the house might conclude that at least three time.; that
number bad been shipped. (Hear, hear.) The unfortu-
nate Africans were now in some instances taken in wars
set on for the purpoee. In others, they were captured
after the burning of villages, and the massacre of the old
people and of infants. Then the horrors of the middle
passage ! His noble friend (Lord C. Paget) ascribed
those latter horrors to our interference ; but the case
mentioned by his noble friend proved the benefit of our
operations, for he (Lord C. Paget) rescued those 480
poor people and made them free. Was not that a great
act of mercy ? His noble friend had said that officers
came home decrepid and disabled ; but he was in him-
self a contradiction to that assertion. (Laughter.) By
pu ting an end to the slave trade in Brazil, we had pre-
vented the landing of at least 200,000 negroes annually
on the coast of that country. (Hear, hear.) It was
said that no credit was due to this country for the aboli-
tion of the Brazilian slave trade, but to the Brazilian
Government. He denied that assertion. (Hear, hear.)
We cornmenced operations of a very vigorous character
on the coast of Brazil in 1850, under an act passed in
1845. In consequence of some representations made* to
Sir J. Hudson, our minister, by the Brazilian Govern-
ment, those operations were suspended, and with what
result I—why the renewal of the slave trade, How-
ever, our operations were recommence.:l ; and, finding
us determined, the Brazilian minister went down to the
legislature and asked it to adopt the law putting an end
to slavery in that country. (Hea7:, hoar.) Therefore,
when any man told him (Lord *Palmerston) that the
abolition of the slave trade on the coast of Brazil was
not owing to our exertions, but to the growth of opinion
in Brazil, he treated that assertion with the contempt it
deserved. (Oh, oh, and hear, hear.) He did not mean
to Rey that there was not, at the time to which be re-
" •
"' rsn•n”fa'ned eene'l l notions
on the subject of the slave trade, anti
put and end to for the sake of Brazil itself—(hear,
hear) ;—but the people rejoiced in their hearts at
the course taken by Great Britain, and which
led to the annihilation of the slave traffic in
their country. The suppression of the slave trade in
Brazil, so far from doing an injury to the people of that
empire, had led to the development of their resources—
the employment of capital on public works of a very j
beneficial character. So long as this country had the act
of 1845 in reserve the Brazilian government would ad-
here to the course they had been compelled to adopt ;
but if that act was repealed a return to the slave trade
on the coast of Brazil would felt° was a certainty. If
the slave trade on the African coast were kept down, in
a very few years our commerce with the West Coast of
Africa would exceed our commerce with Brazil. (Hear,
hear.) Sources of commerce of great importance to this
country bad been repeatedly pointed out in ground nuts,
palm oil, and cotton. They were told that those articles
had grown up because the demand for them increased.
Why, there was always a demand for them; but how
could there be a supply as long as the country was laid
waste, and there was no security for life and property ?
When the demand was for human flesh there could be
no supply of the articles of legitimate commerce. Now,
with regard to the supply of cotton, Africa was of the
utmost importance to this country. It was nearer to us
than India. He believed the cotton districts of Africa
were more extensive than those of India ; the access was
easier, and he believed that in a very few years the sup-
ply of cotton from Africa would prove more valuable to
this country than that of any other in the world, America
alone excepted. 0.1 commercial principles then, ho said
it would be the height of folly to reverse their policy.
How did the case stand in a political point of view ?
'This country, from 1815 down to the present time, had
stood forward among all the nations of the world in
its endeavour; not only by its own example, but by
inducing other countries to concur in the abolition
and suppression of the slave trade. That also had
been eminently successful, because several* countries
had followed our example in abolishing slavery, and
every maritime country, either by treaty with us or
by its own law, had reprobated the traffic and endea-
voured to prevent it. France was at one time a great
slave trading country ; it had put down the slave trade,
a thatt nge the o
the
u
dor
this we must make sacrifices. But what great work was
and more recently it had abolished slavery altogether.
Portugal was at one time a great offender ; he was happy
to say that not only bad Portueal abolished the slave
trade, but that its present government had it in contem-
plation to propose to the legislature a law for the pro-
spective abolition of slavery in its colonies. (Hear, heer.)
But the motion now before the house proposed that we
should abrogate our proud position—that we should
turn round in the moment of success and say we will re-
trace our steps, and we will now set an example to the
worldo ud
ed so
the very
much t
opposite
uu
e r
credit.
of that
Itw
whichae
truehashe
hitherto
Spanish re-
re-
doundedgovernment
whichof
w
hadhna
was not
honour hitherto
uru t
onvery
wu
shown
they e eueatn i e
parudee
iitdu indifferencetta to
themselves, i ts
u
treatieschival-
roussense
but he had little doubt that the Spanish Government
would awake at last to the disgrace it had brought upon
itself, and that we should see the slave trade in Cuba
vanish like the slave trade in Brazil, and that this
country would then have the satisfaction of feeling that
her efforts had not been thrown away, and that she had
awouhriledv ehda oned
everofmp
a theeuu nolal thatany
!i
leissht works
Headmitted
ed.
coat.ffy eurr t
ea coc
fo
weremt h
ui sis heheeee dwe
af was icttehhr oat
au
pit
ne
,ugprt
leheaatrsacrifices
Id
theynwere u
now to
poll the people of England on this question they wouldtud grudge
c It
t in o
say, "Persevere." (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GILPIN complained of the noble lord having
entirely misrepresented the views of the supporters of
the motion. He objected to the further maintenance of
They might have a partial success
in its object.
in suppressing the slave trade, but as long as America
encouraged it. their efforts for its entire destruction
the squadron, because the squadron had failed to ac-
complisht.st
would be unavailing.

Mr. P. O'BRIEN, who had a motion on the paper to
somewhat the same effect as the hOnourable member for
Gateshead (Mr. Hutt), begged to be allowed to with-
draw it.

General THOMPSON must say an enormous conee
mercial fallacy prevailed in the speeches in favour of this
motion. Now, if it was a fact that for every slave that
was landed in Cuba four were embarked from Africa,
that of itself was a circumstance which told very Power.
fully against its advocates. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DRUMMOND said, although the hen, member
for Northampton (Mr. Gilpin) might whitewash him-
self, he could not whitewash the hon. gentleman who
brought forward the motion before the house. That
hon. gentleman distinctly laid down the grand idea that
the way to govern was by the commercial principle of
getting whatever we could no matter by what means.
(A laugh.) The great principle of commercial inter-
course said the hon. gentleman the principle of supply
and demand—must override everything. (An hon.
member, "lie said nothing of the kind !") There were
bon, members now in the house who were not present
when the hon. gentleman spoke, but those who were
present when he addressed the
house would remember
that he said they ought not to interfere with that prin-
ciple, because they would beinterfering with the great
principle of free-trade. (Mr. Hutt said the hon. gentle•
man misrepresented him.) He would then pass on to
ar othi r subject. The ho geltlecral and soma who sup-
ported him dwelt on the horrors of the middle passage,
and imputed them to the policy pursued by the Govern-
ment ; but the horrors of the middle passage at present
were nothing compared with what they were before the
Government entered on the present course. The
hon. gentleman also said that it would be a dreadful
thing to incur the risk of a war on this subject ; but he
(Mr. Drummond) maintained. that the bloodiest war ever
waged was nothing comparison with the daily
of this slave traffic and the sufferings of the
negroes when they arrived in that country which was
often held up as a. model of civilisation and liberty. He
happened to be present at that great meeting to which
the hon. gentleman had alluded, and he there maintained
the argument ho now maintained. He there said that
if a man stole anothees watch or horse, and sold it
ta A, and A afterwards cold it to 13, did not the owner
try to follow Ins property and get it back ? Trio
same principle held good with regard to a matter
far more important than a watch or a horse
Personal liberty was the first right of man ; and if an
' one attempted to make him a slave he had a right to kill that person, and kill him he would if he could. (A
laugh.) Hie firm conviction was, as he stated at tee
nie.ititag referred to, that this thing would never be got
rid of, except by a living on the part of the blacks them-
selves, and he should heartily rejoice when he heard that
they had risen and inflicted some poor measure of short
justice on the people who now held them in slavery.
The hon. gentleman said that the English boasted ex-
ceedingly of their morals and humanity. Now, he
thought that if there was any part of *the community
which liked to be flattered more than another it was the
honest old English merchant and the honest old English
manufacturer or trader, who were willing, for profit, to
trade with the Devil himself. (Laughter.) It was his
firm conviction that the love of money and trade—
carried on under the name of free-trade—really ate out
cf the country anything like moral and religious feeling,
and the arguments of the hon. gentleman were chiefly

addressed to that point, which he held in utter detesta-
tion. (" Hear," and a laugh.)
Mr. COGAN supported the motion, believing that no
matter how anxious England might be for the increase
of commerce, she ought not to forget the interests of
humanity.
The house divided and the numbers were—
For Mr. Butt's resolution
Against it
Majority —l99
The motion was consequently lost.
The house then went into committee of supply.
On the vote for 11,0501. for the mixed commission
established under the treaty with foreign powers for the
suppression of the slave trade, there was some con-
fusion, but it was agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the
house resumed.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he
understood that the Oaths Bill and another bill of im-
portance connected with it would probably come down to
the house to-morrow (this day) and it would be necessary
to make some arrangement for the discussion of these
bills. In the course of the present week, too, he should
ask tho opinion of the house on a bill for securing the
purification of the Thames. (Hear.)
GOVERNMENT OF NEW CALEDONIA BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill,
On clause 1, which fixes the boundaries of New Cale-
donia—on the south, the frontier of the United States ;
on the east, the watershed between the streams which
flow into the Pacific and the Atlantic and Icy Oceans ;
on the north, the 55th parallel of north latitude ; and on
the west, the Pacific Ocean,
Mr. CHRISTY moved an amendment, making the
eastern boundary "the main chain of the Rocky Moun-
tains," and the northern boundary " Simpson's River,
and tlle Finlay branch of the Peace River."
Sir B. LYTTON said he did not object to the amend-
ment.

Mr. ROEBUCK suggested that it would be desirable
to comprise the whole of the British territory up to the
Russian boundary.
After come conversation the amendment was agreed to.
Mr. HOPE objected to the name by which the new
territory was to ba designated. He thought it might
with more propriety ba called "Pacifica" than "New
Caledonia."

Mr. ROEBUCK directed the attention of the right
hon. baronet to a proclamation of Governor Douglas,
which, it appeared from the papers of that morning, had
been issued to the gold-diggers, and expressed a wish to
know 'whether any instructions had been sent out from
the Colonial-office with respect to that document. So far
as he (Mr. Roebuck) understood the proclamation, it
referred to the mainland, over which the Governor had
no control.

Sir E. B. LYTTON said he had seen the proclamation
to which the hon. and learned gentleman referred, and
that it would appear to be formed upon a misconception
of the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company, which did
not justify a blockade of Fraser's River. He thought,
however, that great excuse should be made for Governor
Douglas in the difficult position in which he was placed,
while ho could assure the hon. and learned gentleman
that the proclamation would receive the serious consi-
deration of the Government.

Mr. CROSSLEY wanted to know whether the right
hon. baronet would not accede to the proposition of call-
ing the territory with which the bill proposed to dial
by a more appropriate name than that of New Cale-
donia?

Sir E. LYTTON said several names bad been sug-
gested, but none had been very favourably received.
Tee last proposition to call the territory Pacifica has not
with enthusiasm. Respectful consideration
woulu, nuwtver, ou .uL.j,:ct, and possibly
the name might be altered.
Mr. ROEBUCK recommended that the Indian name
should be sought out and adopted in a translated shape.
(Hear.)
_ _

Mr. CURISTY did not see much objection to the
name. The whole territory had received the name of
New Albion from Drake 300 years ago.
The clause was agreed to, as were also the remaining
clauses.

Mr. ROEBUCK asked whether it was intended to in-
troduce any provision into the bill securing to the colo-
nists the benefits of English laws as far as they were ap-
plicable to the circumstances ?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the very fact of
establishing the colony would carry by its own force all
English laws that were applicable to the state of the
colony. The bill also provided that the governor should
have power to make laws suitable to the emergency, but
it required that those Jaws should bo submitted to Par-
liament as speedily as possible.

The house then resumed.
The Clerk of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Bill passed
through committee.
RAILWAY CHEAP TRAINS BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
MILITIA BALLOTS SUSPENSION BILL.

This bill passed through committee.
BISHOPS' TRUST SUBSTITUTION BILL.

This bill pas•ed through committee.
Mr. HARDY obtained leave to introduce a bill to
authorise the enclosure of certain lands, in pursuance of
a special report of the Enclosure Commissioners of Eng-
land and Wales. The bill was brought in and read a
first time.
The house adjourned at two o'clock.