The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-31 00:00:00

TELEGRAPH TO INDIA.

Mr. WILSON a.,ked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, what progress had been made in arrangements for
completing a telegraphic communication through the
Mediterranean to Alexandria, and thenc3 to India, since
,he dates of the last papers upon the subject, recently
laid upon the table of the house I
Tee CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said the
Turkish Government had granted concessions for carry-
in, the telegraph from Alexandria to Aden, and her
Majesty's' Government was in communication with that
purpose, with a view of c-mtinuing it on from Aden to
India. It the negotiations were concluded he had every
reas•l3 to hope and believe that the line would be com-
menced in the autumn. (Hear, hear.)

TRAC rioN ENGINES.
Sir DE LACY EVANS asked the President of the
India Board whe'.her it was intended to act on the
strong recommendations by the official authorities at
Woolwich of Bray's and Boydell's traction engines, as
being likely, in the opinion of these authorities, to prove
of utility to the army in India in facilitating the trans-
port oftroops, artillery, and stores.
Lord STANLEY said, that on 223 of this month a
letter was written from the Board of Control to the
Directors at the East India Huse, containing an official
report on these traction engines, suggesting that four of
them should be sent to India, viz., two to Calcutta and
two to Bombay. He had not yet received a reply from
the Court of Directors. There was no doubt as to the
value of the principle of these engines, but there was as
to whether the working construction was fit for con-
veyance of heavy stores in India.
THE CASE OF MRS. TURNER.
Mr TITE asked the hon. member for Hereford, as
one of the Commissioners in Lunacy, whether their
attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Turner,
lately a lunatic patient in Acombe House, near York ;
and, if so, what steps had been taken by the commis-
sinners in regard thereto.
Colonel CLIFFORD said the attention of the com-
missioners was called to the case through the news•
papers on Saturday, and on Monday last they instituted
aninquiry into the circumstances, and commissioners
were now sitting at York for that purpose. (/-lear, hear.)

....
THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT.
Lord ELCHO asked the First Commissioner of Works
whether, as he had announced his intention of causing a
full-sized model of the Wellington monument to be made
by Mr. Stephens, and placed on the proposed site be-
fore anything more is finally
decided upon, he would
give the public an opportunity of viewing the work of
any other sculptor who might be willing, on his own re-
sponsibility, to make a design and full-sized model of
the monument ?
Lord J. MANNERS said, adopting the noble lord's
cen-truction of my words on the occasion referred to, he
answered his question in the negative.
Lord ELCUO said he should early next session take
the sense of the house upon the point raised in his ques-
tion.

THIS EVENING'S BUSINESS.
The CEIA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that, in consequenca of the state of publics business, be
proposed to go with the orders of the day before he
proposed tbeadj,urnment of the house till Monday.
Mr. V SMI t R objected, but did not propose any
amendment.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
On the motion for considering the Lords' amendments
to this bill,

Mr. V. SMITS rose to ask certain questions con-
nected with India, but at that period of the session it was
not his intention to raise a discussion on the affairs of
India, though he certainly regretted that, notwithstand!

ing the house had been occupied during a great part of
the latter end of the session with the discussion relating
to the government of India, there bar', in fact, been no
discussion on their present and future relations with that
part of the empire. The first questi.,n be now wished to
put was connected with the position of the army in India
at the present moment. He wished to learn from the noble

lord the President of the Board of Control what was the
Amount of the force at present in India. When the late
Government left office it appeared from the best autho-
rities that it was necessary to have 80,000 European
troops in India, and that was about the number calcu-
lated to be there at that time. It was then calculated
hat, owing to the insalubrity of the climate, accidents in
warfare, disease, and deaths in action, reinforcements
ought to be provided to the amount of 20,000 in the
nourse of the year. The noble lord had stated that since
January last 17,000 men had been sent to India ; but,
as no troops could be added to the establishment of In
dia unless upon application of the East India Company,
he wished to know whether the director+ of the Com-
pany had applied to the Government to add to the forces
in India owing to advices they had received, and a de-
sire on their part that the establishment should be in-
creased, or whether those 17,000 only constituted the
necessary amount to supply vacancies caused by disease
and deaths is action. That was an important point, be-
cause they really had no information on the subject ex-
cept from the columns of the newspapers. He made no
complaint on that score, because he knew how difficult
' it was to get information from India during thehurry con-
sequent upon actions ; but he thought that by this time it
should be known what was the amount of the European
troops and of the rebel troops in that country. They
knew the number of regiments which had rautinied, and
he believed that no additional levies bad been added
to the troops which had mutinied, and the Contin-
gents of the native States which had also mutinied. The
last accounts from India appeared to him to be, so far as
they went, very satisfaCtory, but the house could not
help observing that, though the British arms were vic-
torious everywhere, and though the mutinous troops
were defeated and dispersed, the latter were not de-
stroyed, but rallied agrin, returned to their former
scenes of action, and retook places. Everything indi-
cated, indeed, not only present and immediate resist-
ance, but long and, he feared, protracted resistance.
Therefore, it was desirable that Parliament should be in•
firmed what was the actual condition of the British
troops in Ind a, and what additional amount was in-
tended to be sent out. His next question related to
another important suhjsct, namely, the organisaiton of
the Military Commission which the noble lord had
issued. On a former occasion he observed that the

composition of that commission had been to a certain
degree altered, and that the civil element had been put
on it. That was an important element, and he was sorry
to see it omitted, though no doubt there might be satis-
factory reasons for the omission. The public, however,
wished to be informed of the nature and powers of the
commission. He was told that the GoverOor-Gene-
ral had issued circulars, through Colonel Durraut,
to procure information, and no doubt the informa-
tion received in answer to those circulars might
be useful in respect to the future organisation
of the army. He wished to know what was intended on
that point. The sepoy element seemed to have broken
down, and some people were anxious to introduce the
Saths and Goorkas into the army. But those were
troops which required great supervision on the part of
our own troops, and though the Sikhs, combining with
the English in action, were under present circumstances
powerful allies, they might be hereafter dangerous
ene-
mies. It was, therefore, doubtful whether any of those
troops could be trusted alone. That was an important
question, as hitherto the British bad been able to keep
the country by means of the troops ithey had con•
quered in action. It the commission could really sit at
present and go into all these dwells, it might not be a
bad commission, but if the commission were to be insti-
tuted, for the Government to rely en hereafter, that was
not a course worthy of a British Minister, and one which
he trusted that the noble lord would not pursue. (Hear.)
He hoped that there would be men on the noble lord's
Council competent to institute a plan for the re-oganisa-
tion of the Indian army much better than any commis-
sion. There was plenty of information on the subject,
comprising the opinions of Sir -H. Lawrence, General
Jacob, ales General Napier The third subject on which
he wished to obtain information referred to our fiscal
relations with India. At an early period of the pre-ent
session au Act was passed enabling the East India Com-
pany to borrow 8,000 0001. between the time at which
the measure became law and the month of April, 1859.
That Act contained a clause providing that the Com-
paoy should present to Parliament at the coinuasceement
of the next session a statement of their finances, showing
what amount they had borrowed and how much re•
mained in their hands. He thought, however, that the
likelys
d
teb : eleel
seAh teaotd.
beaube
I empoweredi: codurrrtdaro.e.rdnbtouuoepptroolor
n,etw,
about
waonte,uhdro
etui
aatl
nb.dpdiB rcti eihi
orurrsi
me
4,000,0001.uhf
noble lord might be able to inform the house what
he
e
amount the East India Company ad actually borrowed
information
referred
transactionsariepoenxndrup aueteanotils corncl ieyoei
.f
up to this time, and whether he believed the amount they
plate, the house ought also to know what amount of
was to receive money from nv>rcbants in this country,
givingti s
nature
a ttuh
reem
amountedbi bills upon
That system was discontinued when the act was passed,
as it was thought imprudent to draw upon the Indian
finances at a time when money might be urgently re-
quired for the public service. If loans had been nego-
tiated is India last year more sue essfully than during
the previous year, it was probable that bills were not
drawn upon India in the usual method ; and he hoped
the noble lord would be able to afford some information
to the house upon that point. The last question he
wished to ask was whether any instructions bad been
sent, or would be sent, to proclaim her Majesty's name
and authority in India, and to announce the intentions
of the Government as to non-interference with the re-
ligion of the natives. The noble lord had, on a former
occasion, answered the first part of this question, by
stating that it was his intention that a proclamation
establishing government in the Queen's name should be
issued in India. The noble lord did not state whether
such proclamation would be sent from this country, but
it it were not done, he (111 r. Smith) thought instructions
ought to be given to the Governor-General of India to
issue a proclamation to that effect without delay, The
other part of his question referred to a subject of the
greatest importance, upon which misunderstanding
might easily arise. The proclamation of the Queen's
name would, no doubt, impress the natives of India
with the notion of a very c-naside'able change, but differ •
ent interpretations might be put upon it. Some persons
might regard it as a means of introducing and forcing
Christianity upon the natives, and it was therefore most
desirable that their proclamation should be accompanied
by some explanation which would prevent such a mis-
apprehension. On the other hand there existed in this
c iuntry a belief—whether w,-11-founded or not—tbat in
the late direction of affairs in India there had been a
disinclination to maintain the truth of our own religious
faith, and that to great a deference had been paid to the
religion of the natives. He therefore thought it advisable
that the Government should adopt some means, by pro-
clamation or otherwise, of declaring that, while they
were fully prepared to maintain the Christian faith, they
would be most jealous of any interference with the reli-
gion of the natives, and would cautiously guard against
any indiscretion in that respect on the pert of persons
sinplcyed in the public service, He thought the noble
lord might fairly take Parliament into his confidence
upon these sut,jects, for upon him devolved a greater
task than had perhaes fallen to the lot of any Minister
—a task almost as great as that of founding a new
empire in India. In his (Mr. V. Smith's) opinion the
task of those who had been engaged for two c 'nturies in
establishing the Indian empire was lees difficult than
that which now devolved upon the Briti-h nation of re
establishing that empire, the glory of which had been
destroyed by the late mutiny, although he hoped it
would still continue one of the most important and valu-
able possessions of the British Crown.
Mr. STAPLETON said the noble lord the President
of the Board of Control, in moving the second reading
of the Government of India Bill, had stated that the
arrangements then contemplated with regard to the non-
scientific branches of the Indian army were merely tem-
porary, and that the whole subject of the reorganisation
of thas army was to be referred to a commission ; and he
begged to ask whether the members of the Council for
the affairs of India to be appointed by Government
would be appointed subject to any subsequent decision of
Parliament with respect to appointments of c tdetships ?
Mr. RICH thought the observations of his right hon.
friend (Mr. V. Smith) implied some distrust with regard
to the proclamation which the noble lord had intimated
his intention of issuing ; but he could only say, from
the declarations which had been made by the noble
lord in the course of the discussions ou the India
Bill, that in his opinion Parliament might, entertain
full and entire confidence that the noble lord, in deal-
ing with this great subject, would act with firmness and
moderation, and would temper justice with mercy.
His right hon. friend (Mr. V. Smith) had totally
ignored a large body of our fellow-subjects in India, who
had, with very trifling exceptions, throughout most try-
ing circumstances maintained their loyalty—the armies
of Madras and Bombay. (Hear, hear.) The right hon.
gentleman bad also ignored the loyalty ef a number of
the native princes, who bad magnanimously upheld Bri-
tish dominion. (Hear.) He felt confident, however, that
the noble lord, while he asserted the proud dominion of
England, would at the same time recognize the loyal
spirit which had been *manifested throughout India by
large bodies of our Indian fellow-subjects.
Lord STANLEY —The house is entitled to demand,
and I think the public may fairly expect to receives some
information upon these important questions to which
the right bon, member for Northampton (Mr. V. Smith)
has referred ; and I am glad he has afforded me an op-
portunity of briefly stating to t he house what I believe
to be the position of affairs with regard to the points to
which he has called attention. In the first place, I
have been asked as to the extent of the European fore,
at present in India, and I think the right hon, gentle-
man also inquired whether we could form any estiinate
oo
our
ther
troops strengthareof
opposed those
in
thebod
point I am afraid it is not possible for me, or indeed for
upon t o whom
any ono even iu India, to form an accurate judgment It,
does appear that of late the organized insurrection has
everywhere been defeated, but that parties of armed in-
surgents are scattered far and wide throughout the coun-
try, eluding pursuit, and generally avoiding conflict
with our troops. Under these circumstances it is utterly
impois ono to s
iblo for any ies
field. of
Now, mutineers
the latteray what is the .strength of

the mutineers. It is probably unknown, not only to any
British general, but to any lender of the insurgents.
(Elear, This is more likely to be the cas,-,
because I learn—not from any official report, brit
from private letters—that at the time when the in-

surrection existed in a more organized form than I
hope is the case at present, recruiting went on ra-
pidly among the insurgents, and that some of the
revolted Sepoy regiments regularly enli-ted new re-
cruit-t, forming in one irreance a second battalion, with
a view of preserving in some degree the military order
and discipline to which they had been accustomed in
our service. As to the strength of our European force
I am able to give a more eatistactory answer. tTbe right
bon. gentleman sated a few nights ago that he had seen
some account which represented the effee ive European
force in India as being reduc,d to 26,000 men. I am
happy to say that that account is yen/ far le-low 'he
reality. (Hear, hear) I have obtained from the Wer D •
pertinent the la'est return which they posse's of rh
strength of the Queen's army, and perhaps the best
course I can take alit be to read, not the return as I
have it, but a summary of the twals. The total number
of Europeans in the Queen's army sn..nosed to he in
India or on their way out was 78 416 ; but from that it
is fair to say there must be deducted 7,456 men who
were reported sick at the time when these returns were
made, and 11,059 were draughts on their way on..
These troops will probably have arrived at the pressit
time, and will consti rite part of the effective R reegth of
the force, which will thus comprise nearly 71,000 'nee,
The re urns are not all of the same date ; some are dated
the Ist of May, others the let of June ; and, of course,
further deductio',B —I am afraid a con iderabc reducri
—must be made for ca-ualties since that time. But the
fact remains that the Queen's army at the date of the
latest returns numbered nearly 60 000 effective mine
and about 11,000 draughts on their way out. (Hear.)
With regard to the Company's forces, I have obtained
a memorandum from the East India Hou=e, which is
made up partly by ac ual statements of facts and partly
by estimate to the let of July. It gives a total of
15 855 Company's troops (European). That number is
made up, I should say, by ad.iing tee troops embarked
in Juno and July, and now on their way ; but there is
also a deduction of 1,192 for casualties, estimated upon
the proportion of loss which has occurred up to the date
of which we have information. I need not say that
no estimate of this kind can be entirely reliable, and
therefore the papers which I quote must be looked
upon as forming as approximate calculation only.
We have thus, however, an estimated strength
of 15 800 Company's 'troops and 71,000 Queen's
troops (all Europeans)," making a total of between
86,000 and 87,000 Europeans; and it is obvious that,
alter the largest deduction which it can be necessary to
make (and I am afraid that deduction must be a heavy
one) fer losses sustained by service in the field and by
sickness consequent on exposure since the date to which
these returns refer—after, I say, making the largest and
most liberal deduction on that account, we may still con
eider that we have between 70 000 and 80,000 effective
men certainly above 70,000--fir service in India,
(Hear.) I was asked by the right hon. gentleman how
many of the men sent out since January last were, at
the request of the directors of the C impany, added to
the establishment in India, distinguishing them, I sup-
pose, from the number of draughts aid recruits ? On
this point I have received a memorandum from the East
India House, dated the 23d of this month, giving Ge
figures which I quoted in the house the other day. I
then state t that nearly 17,000 had been sent out between
January and July. Tne exact number I find is 16 730,
and of those all are drau4late or recruits except 634 be-
ing eight companies of her Majesty's 57 h Regiment.
Tire 16,000 are, therefore, draughts and recruits. Other
regiments have been despatched fr im various parts of
the world. TOO house will remember that at an early
period of the insurrection application was made—not,
according to form, through the Board of Directors here,
but direct y—at the Cape and other places, and these re-
quests were, from the urgency of the occasion, acceded
o without waiting for orders from home. With regard
to the second question addressed to me by the right hon.
gentleman, as to the objects of the cmarniesion which
is to inqure into the orga,i,ation of the Indian
army, Uinta I shall best reply by reading the heath,
of the inquiry upon which it is intended that that corn-
mie-ein shall enter. They we :
"1. The terms on which the army of the East India
Company are to be transferred to the Crown.
" 2. The permanent force necessary to be maintained in
the Indian provinces respectively after the restoration of
tranquillity.
"3. The proportion which European should bear to
Native troops, in infantry, cavalry, and artillery respec-
tively.
" 4. How far the European portion of the army should
be composed of troops of the line. taking India as part of
the regular tour of service, and how f r of troops raised for
service in India only.
"5. In connexion with this question the best means of
providing for the periodical relief of the former portion,
and of securing the elfieiency of the latter.
"6. Whether it be possible to consolidate the European
forces, so as to allow of exchange from one branch of the
service to the other, and what re ulations would be neces-
saryand practicable to effect this object with perfect ju aice
to the claims of all officers now iu the service of the East
India Company ?
"7. Whether there would be any admixture of Euro-
pean and native forces, either regimentally or by brigade ?
"S. Whether the local European force should be kept,
up by draughts and volunteers from the line, or should be,
as at present, separately recruited for in Great Britain ?
" 9. Whether it would bo possible to raise any regiments
in the colonies, either for temporary or permanent service
in India i

"10. Whether the native forces should bo regular or
irregular, or both, and if so, in what proportions?
"11. Whether any native artillery corps should be
sanctioned?
"12. Whether cadets sent out for service with native
troops should in the first instance be attached to European
regiments, to secure uniformity of drill and discipline ?"
These are the heads of the inquiry proposed. As to
the reference made to the modification which has taken
place in the constitution of the commission, it was origi-
nally considered desirable that, besides the civilians who
aro officially to sit upon it, there should be Vire() other
gentlemen of eminence in public life who should give it
the benefit of their experience and of their services ; but
from various circumstances, and more especially coo
sidering the time of year at which this commissi, n was
to sit—the first meeting having taken place in the
course of the present week, end the next being fixe I fur
Tuesday—it was found so difficult to obtain the services
of those who we desire should sit upon the commission
that that part of the scheme was abandoned. It is
quite true that an inquiry—the nature of which I do
not exactly know—upon the came subject is taking
place in India ; hut though, of course, there are many
advantages in instituting an investigation of that kited
upon the spot, one great disadvan age attends it—
namely, that the great majority of those officers whose
services would be mast valuable are actively engaged,
and are unable, therefore, to give their attention o
This objection does not apply in the same degree to those
who have either retired Irma the servics, or who, on the
ground uf health, have lately returned from India, and
I am happy to say we have many of that description
whose advice and assistance will he most valuable. Be-
fore I leave the suject of the oommi,sion I will state that
it is not intended and cannot be intended, to lessen in
any the slightest degree the respensibility which must
devolve upon the Government for the settlement of this
very large question. (Hear, hear.) The ultimate de-
cision, be it what it may, mu-t depend upon the re-
sponsibility of the Government of the day, and the re,
port of the commission of inquiry will carry with it no
other weight than that which is derived from the
eminence of its members, the experience and know-
ledge they bring to hear upon the subject, and the
soundness of the reasons they employ. (Hear, hear.)
I have been told that some arrangements winch I pro-
posed on the second reading have been departed from,
because patronage which formerly rested with the
direc ors will henceforth b 3 vested in the Crown
Now, in recommending that proposition to the
approval of the house, my wish was to carry on as
far as possible the analogy of the system which
actually exists ; and I confess I think the hon. member
who referred to toe subject, when he describes the mem-
bers of this Council as being taken entirely from one
class of society, whereas members of the Court of Larec-
tors were taken from quite another, has, to use the
mildest term, entirety overstated the csse. Certainly a
large and very valuable section of al former C torts of
Directors always consised cf men of 1 diets service and
experience ; but I mey remind the house that there is
in the bill as it stands an actual legal provision they, a
majority, and something more, of the Council should be
taken from that same class. Teen the same hon. mem-
ber asked me whether it was intended that the arrange-
ment with regard to the non-scientifi3 military appoint-
ments should be provirtional only, and subject to the
report of the commission, or whether it was i tended as
a permanent arrangement. Now, it is obvious that
what one Act of Parliament has sanctioned another at
any future period can overthrow. As to the objection
that compensation might be claimed where any appoint-
ments of this kind were taken away, we have shown, I
think, what our fecaings are upon that point by the 14th
clause of the bill, in which it is stated expressly that if
the Council itself were abolished within 10 years no
claim for compensation could arise. (blear.) Naturally,
as discussion has gone on we have seen our way more
clearly, but I do not think it is proper—though, of
course, it is in the power of Parliament to deal with the
subject as it will—that any measures taken for the re-
organization of the Indian army should involve a change
in the manner in which the first appointments will be
made. I think the question of first appointments, and
that of the discipline and reorganization of the army
afterwards, are distinca questions, and that it is quite
poss • ible to deal with the one without touching the other.
Now, wiAl regard to the financial part of the quet ton
connected with India, to which the right hon, gentleman
has referred, I think I can heat satisfy the wishes of
hon. members by reading an extract, which I have re-
ceived from the East India House. That extract states
t hat,
"The Indian Loan Act conferred the power
of borrowing
Which has been already used to the extent of 4,1e.1,000

Leaving yet available the power of borrowing £3,570,000
Add,
India Bonds :—Unissued portion
of 7,000,00 d/.
May be issued to replace those noti-
fied for discharge
Ditto, to replace those now depo-
sited with Bank of England,
which will be available on loan
being paid off in October, 1858 1,000.000

653,900