The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-29 00:00:00

EVENING, JUNE 29, 1858.

courteous. If be had said anything discourteous he
extremely regretted it. ([sear, hear.) He considered
the course which the Government took perfecty regular
and :straightforward. The hon. and gallant gentleman
seemed to him to misunderstand the position in which
by an unfortunate accident he found himself. This—was
not the first time in his life that he (the Chancellor of
the Eechequcr) had seen those who really seemed to de-
serve success, and who had laboured hard to attain it, em-
barrassed by unexpected good fortune. (Laughter.) It was
said that the bird never made so much noise as when
she 'laid her first egg; and he could easily conceive an
hon. gentleman who had just carried hie first resolution
being overpowered by success. (Laughter.) But, as
the laying of the first egg was only a very natural ope-
ration, so the carrying of the first resolution was in the
due course of Parliamentary nature, and though it was
not the good for one of everyone to meet with ir, every-
one should be prepared for success. (Laughter.) Now
what was the carrying of this resolution ? There was a
declaration of the house to a certain extent ; but, in-
stead of proceeding in the path on which he bad entered,
the hon. gentleman, stupefied with success, said in effect
—"I have gained the opinion of the House of Commons
in favour of the policy which I recommend—l shrink
from pursuing that policy—(No, no)—and I asl you to
come forward and rescind my resolution." Trembling
at the continuance of success, he looked forward t> the
safety-valve of Ministers getting his resolution rescinded.
Now, he thought the conduct of the hon. gentleman
wag, to use an expression of his own, unsatisfactory and
unprecedented. (Hear, hear.) There had, indeed, been
instances of resolutions being fe- chided in that house.
Ile could mention t • ; but birth had reference to fiscal
maters, and it was absolutely necessary to rescind
them, because if they had been left unnoticed they would
have affected the revenue of the country. The two re-
solutions to which he referred related respectively to the
malt duties and the sugar duties. The hon. and gallant
gentleman (Capt. Vivia. ) would neither ask the house to
assist him in carrying his policy into effect nor rest con-
tented with the barren triumph he had already achieved,
but he had rated and scolded the ministry because
they did not act upon his resolution or propose
to rescind it. Now, he maintained that the course
which they had taken was a parliamentary course,
a course which was justified by precedents, and
that they had done their duty throughout these
transactions. He should hardly notice the general ob-
servations of his hon. and gallant friend, as he had an-
nounced that he intended to bring the subject before the
house on some future occasion ; but he must say, with
regard to the instances of France, Austria, and other
great military states which he hal adduced as prece-
dents for this country, that he could not forget that the
laws, and manners, and customs of England were dif-
ferent from those of great military and ceetralised states.
(Hear.) If, indeed, the Commander-in-Chief was totally
irresponsible, or in any way irresponsible, he should be
perfectly ready to meet any hon. gentleman who pro-
posed to consider a state of things so anomalous in rela-
-1 tion to the constitution and so injurious to the service
of the country. But, knowing as he did, from every
day's experience, that the Coenreandenin.Chief was
under the direct authority of the Secretary of State, and
could do nothing without his approbation, not only was
he contented, but he rejoiced that in a country like this
the discipline of the army was left to the Commander-
in-Chief, while the civil administration was carried on
by the Secretary of State, the Commander-in-Chief
being, not only on grew, questions, but practically on
every question, responsible to the Government of the
day, while the Government was responsible to Parlia-
ment. That was a system which, in his opinion, was
more consistent with constitutional government than
any of the centralised systems to which the hon. and
gallant gentleman had referred. The hon. and gallant
gentleman, in speaking of the patronage of the army,
said he should be very sorry to see that corrupting
element introduced into the House of Commons, adding
that be had no doubt some plan might be devised by
which that would be prevented. What was wanted,
however, on questions of this kind was, for reformers to
come forward with some plans. (Hear.) They did not
want mere windy announcements of great changes
with the salvo that no doubt when the question was
discussed, the obvious difficulties would be removed. If
the hon. and gallant gentleman himself proposed some
mode of meeting these difficulties, he would occupy a
much more commanding position than he did by having
obtained a majority of one or two. This majority would
of course have been sufficient on the last stage of the
bill, but when the hon. and gallant gentleman assumed
that such a majority in favour of a resolution constituted
an expression of opinion which could not be revoked or
questioned, he must join issue with him. He would un-
dertake, when this question was brought forward with
fair notice, there should be no lack of discussion, and
that so far as the Government were concerned, the mat-
ter should have that fair and ample deliberation which it
deserved. (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was true that this Govern-
ment differed from the Governments of foreign countries
in this respect, that Parliament had a voice which was
entitled to its weight, but the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer put it that the Parliament had icdeed the power of
expressing an opinion, and then it was for the Minister
to consider whether that opinion should be acted on r r
no. He could not understand that the decisions of thia
house were to be held at nought. Meer' hear.) The
right hon. gentleman quoted precedents, but they were
caeca in which the resolution could not be carried out
without an act of Parliament. One case was one in
which an act of Parliament was proposed by Govern-
ment, in accordance with the resolution which met the
approval of the house. There was one precedent which
Applied, that of the resolution on the diplomatic service,
but he could not think the Minister was justified in pay-
ing no attention to the resolution. If that was to be the
constant course, resolutions of this house would become
wholly futile. This resolution was one which could not
be made the foundation of an act of Parliament, it was
a question of administration, and Government ought
either to have acted on i', or, if they said it was carried
by a small mnoj amity and by surprise, to have moved a
resolution to reecied it—(bear, hear)—and not to MY:et
to despise it. It would be uoconstitutional that resolu-
tions should be paced on record and no attention pail
to them. He thought his hon. and gallant friend was
right in not pressing the matter further at this advanced
period re! the session. His hen. and gallant friend had
said that he did not wish to take from the Commander-
in-Chief the control of thearmy, for it had been said on
the other side that the proposal was to place the disci-
pline of the army under a civilian. It woe an k is 3 for
a Commander-in. Chief to dispise the opinion of this
house. When a resolution was proposed by Sir John
Bowfin on the question of flogging in the army, the
late Doke of Weltingteen thought that such a motion
would be dangerous is the discipline of the army. But
the Duke of Wellin4ton knew how public opinion swayed
the country and this house, and he proposed a resolution
to meet that of Sir J. Bowing. If the Commander.
in-Chief acted under the authority of the Secretary of
State, an inquiry would to doubt easily solve this ques-
tion. He thought what (ight to be done was to have
an inquiry next session. The authority of this house
ought. to have ereat weieet in the matter. Ho hoped
that there would be as inquiry, and that the artny
would br pl iced in a position worthy of it.
General PEEL said that when it was complained that
the resolution of the hon, and gallant inJiimber was not
carried out, he must say he was at a 14 to know how
it was to be carried out, if the hon. andogallant gentle-
man did not wish to interfere with the diecip ine or
patronage of the army. He could not see where there
was a division of responsibility, which he thought was
clearly laid do a n in the patents. lie was responsible
directly f r everything but the discipline and patronage,
atol Lldirtectly for them. If there were any gross aris-
e mduct on the part of the Cornmander.in-Chief, the
Minister would have to call on him fir explanations,
and if they were not satisfactory, to insist on his re-
moval or resign office. He had found no difficulty, and
was working in perfect harmony with the Commander-
in-Chief, and he had not the slightest doubt that if Par-
liament would not interfere with the army, it would be
carried on much more satisfactorily.
Colonel NORTH had conversed with a great number
of officers, who were all of opinion that nothing could be
more dangerous for the welfare of the army than this
motion. But, in order to get an affirmative answer from
these officers he had consulted, his hon, and gallant
friend must have introduced the question by a compari-
son with foreign countries. No doubt if the Minister
at War could always be a soldier, then it would be best
that the two offices should be combined. The evils
which had arisen aro3e mainly from the interference of
civilians with the army. (Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) The
green coffee in the Crimea, to wit, for they owed that
to Sir Charles Trovelyan. The member for Bodmin,
who, during the discussion, was running about like an
aide-de camp, owed his majority of two to Lord J. Rus-
sell ceding out to him, "Now is your time." (..1 laugh.)
He contended that this resolution struck at the pre-
roeative of the Crown. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
help thinking that the letters of civilians
had c'nooleojt ect but to throw discredit on the state-
ments of his right hon. and gallant friend the Secretary
far War, than whom no mail enjoyed more completely
the confidence of the officers of the army. Ile had
answered all questions in the most complete, satisfac-
tory, honourable, and, straight orward manner. The
gallant colonel then entered into some explanations as
to the question he had put a few nights ago with re-
spect to the sale of commissions by the Commander-in-
Chief. He believed the fact was as stated on that occa-
sion—that no commission had been sold [since 1325.
Sir W. CODRINGTON said the great difficulty was
to drew the line of distinction where the authority of
ono ended and the other began, and as long as the two
worked as harmoniously as at present, there would be
no clashing. But there was a line where clashing might
aria,. The line ought to be drawn distinctly either by
words or by custom. He would defy the Secretary of
War, if a civilian, to say that he would be responsible
for courts-martial as for the distribution of honours,.
The responsibilitys • her direct or indirect, should be
in the name of, , ilimenender-in-Chief himself, or he
wool Ibe shelt ..imself under the nominal responsi-
bility of the wry for War. The latter, however,
mu-t neceseari eeponsible for the expenditure and
for the civil depa meats. It was of course impossible
to compare this country, with its control of Parliament
over expenditure, with any of the foreign countries al-
laded to.

Mr. ELLIS agreed with his bonourille and gallant
friend (General Peel), but then the question was, whe-
ther ho had sufficient command over the Commander-in-
Chief to be responsible for his actions, bearing in mind
he was not responsible to that house. The question de-
pended on thi', whether the time had arrived if the
only person to take the opinion of the Crown upon
military affairs was the Secretary of State for War.
(Hear, hear.) He eulogised the conduct of the right
hon. gentleman since be had held office, and said the
service could not be in better lunch.. (bear, hear.)
With respect to the whole system, the house required
great information to know that the consolidations
were in the right direction, awl would answer the autc;:
_ _

pationg predicted of them. He hoped next session a
•.1
,uld be appointed on this important sub,

ject.

Sir F. SMITH supported the present system. Every
department was doing its best, and he expected great
improvement in•ehe service during the ensuing year.
The subject then dropped.
GRENEWICH HOSPITAL.
Sir C. NAPIER moved that it wal the opinion of
this house that the sailors and rnariztes in Greenwich
Hospital should be allowed to receive their pensions for
wounds and injures in tie same manner as officers.
Sir J. PAKINGTON asked the hon. and gallant
officer to postpone his motion till a later period. Hui
(Sir J. Pakington'e) at'ention had been called to the
grievance complained of. It bore particularly on the
married men, whose wives, on their going into the hos-
pital, had to go into the workhouse. That was a state
of things that ought not to exist, and he bad caused an
inquiry to be made into the subject, and as it was under
the investigation of the A-lmiralty he hoped the hon.
and gatlant admiral would not press his motion. The
regula'ions required alteration.
Sir C. NAPIER expressed his satisfaction at the
statement of the right hon, baronet, and withdrew his
motion.

The motion was then withdrawn.
THE PESTILENTIAL STATE OF THE THAMES
Mr. ROUPELL rose to call the attention of the
house to the noxious state of the Thames, and to move,
"that the house considers it the duty of the executive
Government to take immediate measures for abating
this dangerous nuisance." The hon. gentleman said the
difficulty the house w-re in arose from their having
made that a local which was essentially an imperial
question. ("Hear," and "No, no.") If it were not
an imperial question, on what principle could they justify
tbe veto they had given the First Commissioner of
Works upon the plans of the Metropolitan Board— (hear)
—or how could they justify the levying of the special
metropolitan taxes, such as the coal tax, tbe duty on omni-
buses and cabs, which amounted to 160,0001. a year, and
other imp fists ? (gear, hear,) He might be told of
such towns as Hull, Liverpool, and Birkenhead, and
the works of public improvement which had been carried
out at the expense of those plac-s. But these works
bad not been effected by direct local taxation, but by
taxes on shipping and other similar modes of levying
the oost upon the general trade of the country. (Hear.)
At the present moment, however, the metropolis was
called upon to execute at its own cost great works of
public utility. Thew were told that they must take
their sewage to Sea Reach, or to the German Ocean ;
and he had no doubt some hon. gentleman would be
disposed to have it carried still further. (Qeestion.)
Anyhow it was to be a grand work, and to cost money.
But how was it poseible to raise the sum that would be
required, say from 10 to 15 millions, by d root local
tax ition S Taey might just as well attempt to raise the
whole revenue of the country by an income tax of from
10s. to 12s. in the pound. (Hear, hear.) He was not
arguing that the veto of the Government upon the plans
of the 13 rard of Works should be removed. On the
contrary, he should look with great suspicion on any
proposition of the kind ; and he considered that the
late First Commissioner (Sir B. Hall) deserved great
credit for refusing to sanction the plans which had been
submitted to him, and which were contrary to the Act
of Parliament. (Hear.) He would remind the house
that what was wanted was an immediate remedy ;
whereas the plans that had been proposed for relieving
the remedy would take from five to seven years, in
which time half the inhabitants might be poisoned.
He should now move his amendment, with a view to
test the feelings of the house ; but on another occasion
be should propose that the Thames Commissioner be
made permanent, and have power to act in conjunction
with the Chief Commissioner of Works and the Board
of Conservancy, for the purification of the river and the
improvement of its bank.. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAXTON, in seconding the motion, observed
that the improvements at Birkenhead had been chiefly
carried out by himself, and not a farthing had been raised
for that purpose except by local taxation. (Hear.) With
regard to the Thames, be had spent the whole of Satur-
day last in investigating the subject, and be had come
to the conclusion that a very efficient remedy might be
found for at all events the greater proportion of the nui-
sance. He had communicated his views to Mr. Bidder,
who had given his attention to the subject for many
months, and Mr. Bidder had told him that the plan met
with his confidence, although it was not anew proposal,
but one that been communicated to the Board of Works
last year. It was that lime should be pot into the prin-
cipal sewers at about three-quarterss of a mile from the
Thames ; so that by the time it reached the river the
sewage would be cern,eletely deodorised. To be sure
this plan would discolour the water and it would kill the
fish. (A. laugh.) All deodorising schemes involved the
destruction of the fish ; but, after all, what they wanted
was that people should not be killed. (Hear.) He be-
lieved that if this plan were adopted, the river would in
eight and forty hours be in a very different condition.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS bad no intention to enter into
the wide question which had been submitted to them by
the hon. member for Lambeth ; but the house would no
doubt like to know what steps would be taken by her
Majesty's Government to abate the serious evil com-
plained of. (Hear.) On Saturday last ho (the noble,
lord) communicated with the Metropolitan Board of
Works, and authorised them to apply lime in the man-
ner the hon. gentleman the member for Covectry'had
suggested; and he had every reason to hops that the
board would apply the remedy without delay, to all the
chief sewers of the metropolis. (Hear.) The Govern-
ment had also instructed two officers of the Board of
Heal. b to visit and inspect the docks ; and if these gen-
tlemen shonld suggest any measures as likely to remove
the ex to ing evils, the Government would be prepared to
take whatever steps might be necessary for that purpose,
(Hear.) So far, however, as they were at present informed,
it did not seem likely chat the state of the docks would
have any material effect upon the state of the rise r.
(Hear, hear.) When the Metropolitan Board of Works
propose I to the Government any general scheme which
seemed likely to effect the ends they had in view, it
would rec.ive immediate consideration, end the Govern-
ment would not hesitate to afford every facility for
carrying that scheme into effect. (gear, [rear.)
Mr. TICE boped that the measures which were being
tat en for the purpose of affording temporary relief would
not hinder the prompt adoption of a permanent scheme,
eTecially as he could riot couceive that t'ley would not
fail. The opinion of Mr. Stephenson, Mr. Cubitt, and
other eminent engineers was that there must be a great
intercepting sewer. There was no help for it—that
scheme must be carried out ; and it seemed to him that
a much less cumbrous body than the Board of Works
would be required. If the Government would borrow
the money and charge it on the rates, be was satisfied
that it could be obtained at a very much lower rate of
interest than the board could borrow it at themselves.
The aura required would be about 24 milliene, which,
spread over thirty or forty years, would not add a very
serious additional burden to the rates. (Lear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
amenchnent applied to an immediate remedy, and not to
works ‘if a permanent character such as those which the
hon. gentleman who spoke last had referred to; and it
wculd he ex rernely inconvenient, by discussing the
latter, to stop the committee of supply. (Hear, hear.)
He could assure the e that so far as immediate
retne lies avert, her Majesty's Government bad taken the
most vigorous measures. They had sanctioned, on the
previous Saturday, plans which would require 200 or
250 tons s-f lime every day, and which could not be
carried out for less than 1,500/ a week.
Mr. COX announced his intention to take the sense
of the house at the earliest day on the question whether
the whole cal of the permanent works should be thrown
upon the metropolis ? For his own part, he would never
consent to tax the metropolitan ratepayers 2r. in the
pound for twenty years for the main drainage of Len
dun.

Mr. BLA.CKBURN hoped the hon. gentleman would
take as early a day as possible. (Hear) It seemed to
bins only simple justice that the house should refuse to
give the inhabitants of the metropolis a single farthing
towards cleansing the river which they themselves spoilt.
Sir J. SHELLEY said that the iuhabitants of the
metropolis did not object to pay for the drainage of their
own district, but they objected to pay for carrying the
sewage five or six miles bel iw Oat district. He took it
for granted that the G .vernment would pay out of the
C,neolidated Fund the 1,50 C/. a week to which the right
hon. gentleman had referred, because they had no power
whatever to direct the Board of Works in what way it
should expend the money it had raised by rates. (Hear.)
Mr. J. LOCKE agreed with the hon. baronet that the
Govnoment could not interfere in the expenditure of the
rates raised by the Board of Works. It was clearly a
matter of impossibility to levy a metropolitan rate suffi-
cient fur the purification of the Thames. It would in fact
' be a c mfiscation of property, as the present rates were
so heavy that they had put a stop to all improvements.
If they bad any rate, it should be an imperial one. How
had this nuisance occurred Formerly, before this stench
arose, London was drained iu the ordinary manner by
cesspools ; but an act of Parliament was passed compel-
ling every parish to drain into the river. - Tne House of
C,mmons had done the mischief, and the House of Com-
mons should find the remedy by levying a fair uniform
rate on the whole c)mmunity. He was satisfied that the
various constituencies who were so attached to their
members would not grumble at anythin 2' that contributed
to their comfort.

Mr. BENTINCIC said that the case had now become
intelligible, It was clear that the metropolitan members
would not consent to a metropolitan rate, and he on his
part could inform them that he and many other members
were equally determined that the expense f purifying
the metropolis should not be eefrayed by the general
constituencies of the country. He wag, however, willing
to assist them with a loan, provided its repayment could
be secured without the slightest chance of evasion. (A
laugh.)

Lord EBRINGTON thought the explanatien of the
Chief Commissioner unsatisfactory and should like to
know who was to pay for the present palliative—he
feared imperfectly palliative—measures. He wa+ glad,
however, to see the increased interest now evinced on
metropolitan affair?, as he remembered that when the
drainage bill was before Parliament it was discussed in
houses varying from 9 to 20 members.
The motion wag then withdrawn.
THE STOREKEEPER AT WEEDON.
Col. BOLi)ERO then rose to move that an humble ad-
dress be prereted to her Majesty, praying that she will
be graciousl .-leased to appoint a royal commission to in-
quire into t g ..e..,,,stem upon which the books and stock have
been respects'', 1, kept at Weedon, as well as the general
-mode in which Ig..,..business of the establishment at Wee-
don has been cited, the result of such mode of con-
ducting the busi . , and the state of the books and stock
of stores. The hog'. and gallant member (the chairman of
the committee which has sat upon the general subject of
army clothing) proceeded to draw attention to the highly
unsatisfactory state in which the storekeeper's accounts
had been kept. In order that these accounts might be die-
9tanalcdi and 691110 thing like ii Flit It OtigAGWrii to t4O

military authorities might be obtained, 20 clerks were suc-
cessively sent down to -Weedon, but the accounts for
1856-7 were not yet settled. It appe..red that the accounts
of stores kept at Wecdon were most scandalously kept
that no day books wore forthcoming, and that one and the
same officer had the receipt and issue of these stores with-
out any check 'upon him. Captain Gordon was sent to
relieve Mr. Elliott as storekeeper, .and yet the latter re-
tained his higher salary of 8501. a-year. The hon. and
gallant member entered at length into a statement
to show the malpractices which had baen resorted to
in the way of procuring boot,, kite, and accoutre-
ments, and pouch belts, at a cuntract price, and dis-
posing of them to the army at a highly advanced
price. These facts had been proved before the com-
mittee, and it would be highly prejudicial to the public
service to permit the conduct, of which the -storekeeper
had been guilty to pass uureiroved. The committee bad
hal great difficulties to encounter, and they bad detected
a system pursued at Wooden at once disgraceful and disre-
putable. He proposed a commission, with an efficient
actuary at its head, which should probe the evil to its root.
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Mr. C. GILPIN con' ialy seconded the motion, thanking
the hon. and gallant member for the promptitude with
which he had come forward to correct a geese abuse. Ho
hoped that if any opposition was to be offered to the mo-
tion, it would not be on the part of any members of the
late Government, under whose administration many of
these evils of malversation had occurred. On this inquiry
would depend the very principle of administrative reform,
of which he regretted that much had not recently been
heard of late.

Gen. PEEL had not the slightest intention to oppose the
motion, but he did not augur those great results from in-
quiry which his hon. and gallant friend seemed to antici-
pate. He had himself caused inquiries to be made on ac-
ceding to his present office, and had ordered that the sol-
diers should have have their kits at a proper price. The
system of clothing had also been changed. (Hear.) He
hoped the commission would do justice to all. (Hear.) He
had no desire to scree❑ any persons. The department to
which he belonged, indeed, was deeply interested in hav-
ing all these matters conducted satisfactorily. The reports
he had received from other establishments were of a satis-
factory character. With regard to Weedon, he thought
the fault lay not in the ordnance regulations themselves,
but must, be ascribed to their evasion. (Hear.)
Mr. A. BARING said that Mr. Elliott had utterly dis-
regarded the ordnance regulations, and the consequence
was that the accounts were in a complete state of confu-
sion. He hoped the house would suspend its judgment
until the commission had reported.
Mr. JACKSON thanked the Minister of War for the
readiness with which he had granted the commission, that
form of enquiry on the spot being the only method of
eliciting the truth. (Hear.)
Mr. CONINGHAAI hoped that justice would be done to
Sergeant Brodie, who bad been instrumental in bringing
about these inquiries. Next session, ho trusted that the
system of patronage pursued at the Horse Guards itself
would be brought under investigation. (On.) A searching
inquiry into the practices in all the public departments
would bu the only way of securing economy. The Horse
Guards must be brought to book. (Oh, oh, and cries of
" Question.") The hon. member, amidst repeated cries of
" Question," said he had heard it recommended that the
Thames should be turned into the Horse Guards (a laugh)
—but he would not torn it on them in its present putrid
state. (Laughter.) The Horse Guards must be turned in-
side out. (Laughter.)
Mr. D. NICOLL extolled the conduct of Sergeant Bro-
die, and

Tim motion was agreed to.
The Chief Justice of Bombay Bill was read a third time
and passed.
__.

The Herring Fisheries (Scotland) Bill was read a second
dime.

CONFIRMATION OF EXECUTORS, &c., BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
THE ART UNIONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was also read a third time and passed.
The house then adjourned at a quarter past one o'clock.