The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-18 00:00:00

r H

the reasons for adhering to the amendments, until they
to in the log what it was that caused that suspicion,oy
would erhaul had decided upon what should be done with the bills
It was not from mere caprice that theyywhich had been initiated in their lordships' house for
a vessel bearing the American flag, but there must be
settling the question, would scarcely be a convenient
a reasonable suspicion that she was not a vessel of the
country whose flag she carried belfhoirsewthey could venture
as necessary, for,
to visit, still less to search herh.tT
hoist no flag at all, and
in the first place, a vessel mig
all you had to do was to ascertain what she was, and
if then she turned out to be a pirate, you could deal with
her ; or if she was a Spanish vessel, or a vessel belong-
ing to a power with which you had a treaty, you could
deal with her. In the case of an American vessel, or a
vessel belonging to a power with which we had no treaty
we could not interfere in any manner ; even if she was
full of slaves she might go on her way and we could not
arrest her. That was the law of the case, and in which
the American Government had acquiesced. That being
the case, he was at a loss to understand what was meant
by British outrages in American waters. He agreed it
was desirable to limit the action of our squadron more
to the coast of Africa than has recently been the case,
rather than direct them to the coast of Cuba. He was
satisfied, looking to the spirit of conciliation in which
this matter had been treated, that unless the American
Government had very much changed since he had to deal
with them, we could not fail in bringing it to a satisfac-
tory conclusion. He would only say a word with regard
to an act which had been introduced by him, and was
called by his name, but which he believed in Brazil was
called the Algerine Act. (Cheers and laughter. )
When he brought in that act he assured
the Brazilian Government that nothing woull
give him so much pleasure as when the day arrived whey
he should move the repeal of that act. He was not sure
that the time had arrived yet, but he hoped and
believedn..
that her Majesty's government, who must ha"thcaeore sami
formation on the subject, looked forward to
object, and that the conduct of Brazil entitled it to con-
sideration ; and he would only recommend to care
the realisation of the hope which he had venturedtheir to ex-
press.
The Earl of HARDWICIKE said that with regard to
any change in the Amerioan government on this ques-
tion, it would seem that their feelings had become more
acute with respect to it. Our squadron had approached
-nearer to their coast, and it was not the custom in the
time of the noble earl (Aberdeen) for our cruisers to carry
on operations on the coast of Cuba. What was the cause
of the alteration in the system he did not know. But
there had been an alteration ; and believing as he did
that the officers of our navy had acted with caution, and
at the same time with activity and zeal, yet it was pos-
sible that they might have overstepped the line which
the noble earl opposite desired to see kept, and it might
turn out that we were not without some blame in the
matter. Great indignation had been expressed by several
noble lords that the whole course of the policy of this
country, which was to bring about an amelioration of
the condition of the African negroes, and for which we
bad used such exertions, should have been turned aside ;
and just at the time when we believed that was the
greatest diminution in the export of slaves, and the
greatest improve ment in the cultivation of the soil in
Africa, everything should have been arrested and over-
thrown, and the chiefs of that country induced suddenly
to arm against each other with a view to slave-hunting
in order to sell negroes to those who required them. The
noble earl (Grey) had been very severe on.the government
of France. There could be no doubt that on the coast of
Africa a process was carried on which stimulated the slave
trade, and which was aided and abetted the the officers
aad ships of France. But he was bound to say that
the course pursued by the French Government
was strictly in accorAance with the desire to their
lordship. It should be know and understood
that those unfortunate beings who were procured for the
purpose of becoming free labourers, on arriving on board
French ships received the kindest treatment. From
that time their manacles were struck off, and their
wages began from the time they came on board ; and,
except in a few instances, he learnt from papers which
he had seen that their condition was totally changed
from the moment they came into the hands of the French.
They were treated as hired labourers, and dealt with
not on the footing of slaves, but of free men. He men-
tioned this in order to do justice to the French govern
went, and he knew that they had declared that if it was
proved that the proceeding was calculated to produce
such injurious results as had been stated, they were pre-
pared to deal with it, while steps bad been taken which
were calculated to meet the views of this country cn
the subject.
The Earl of CLARENDON asked if the noble earl
had any objection to lay en the table any papers w blob
showed what the treatment of the negroes in question
was on beard ship. Be bad heard with satisfaction,
but at the same time with surprise, the statement of the
noble earl ; for it was totally contrary to that which be
had previously heard ; for it had been stated, that not
only at Liberia, but at other places where French ships
stopped with negroes on board, some of them swam on
shore, and gave an account of the want of humanity
with which they bad been treated.
The Earl of HARDWICKE said, no doubt there
were great mistakes on the subject. As to the manner
in which these apprentices were treated from their cap
ture till they fell into the hands of the French, no doubt
there was the greatest cruelty shown to them, but their
treatment by the French was different from that of in-
human slavers. If his noble friend wished to see the
papers, he would move for them.
The Earl of CLARENDON said he would move for the
papers. There must be some mistake in the statement of
the manner in which these slaves were got. They were got
on the east and west coast of Africa. On the east coast
they were got by means of agents, but on the west coast
they were obtained in the same way a; slaves were
usually obtained, that is by means of wars between dif-
ferent tribes, and by capture; and they only question as
to whether they were to go to France or to Cuba was the
price given. The French had contracted with the King
of Dahomey to furnish negroes at forty dollars a head,
but he did not furnish them, because the Spanish agents
offered 80 dollars a head. But as far as he had heard,
these people, when on board French ships, were not
treated in the manner described by his noble friend. It
was necessary that they should be treated in a particular
way in order to stow away a large number of persons in
an inadequate space ; for that reason they were mana-
cled,.for that reason the hatches were closed and sentries
placed over them. All the evidence showed that there
was no difference in their treatment and that of slaves in
ordinary cases. If these facts were true and were proved,
the French immigration of negroes was the slave trade
and nothing more, and in consequence of the represen-
tations of our Government there had been a change in
their treatment, it would be a great satisfaction if any
papers showing that were produced, and he would move
for hem.
The Earl of ITALMESBURY thought that no public
interest would be served by the production of the papers.
They were nothing but a controversy which was going
on between the two Governments as to the result of the
new French system of immigration of negroes. There
bad been instances and places where no cruelty had been
used, and where the negroes had been comparatively
well treated, and where not so many had been put on
board as in other ships. There was no doubt that
France bad produced instances showing that much dis-
cretion had been observed in shipping the negroes and
taking care of them afterwards. (Hear.) But that did
not affect the main question, whether this could be said
to be anything but the slave trade. He could only re-
peat what his noble friend had said—that the French
Government had invariably declared what he believed
they intended—that they would not continue the system
if they found in practice that it was accompanied by the
evils anticipated.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY expressed bis
satisfaction with the noble earl's statement, and in-
quired whether the Government were is possession of
any
dosed
showing whether or not the ship was captured in
the Liberian waters. Lie wished to knew whether any
correspondence had taken place with the French Govern-
ment in respect to the re-capture ' • and, if so, whether
the noble lord would lay it before the house
The E
on' of MALNIESBURY replied that they had
per
no information from any official person on thei subject.
All the information they had wascons t
letter addressed by Mr. Chillingleam to theeForneiaenpri
some Foreign-office.
e
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY hopedc
offi-
cial inquiry would be made as to what were therealcirl
coin itances of the case.
The subj ct then dropped.
THE OATHS BILLS.—ADMISSION OF JEWS
TO PARLIAMENT.
Lord DENMAN inquired what course it was pro.
posed to adopt with regard to the Louis' amendments
in the Oa'hs Bill, to which the Commons had disagreed
—whether it was intended to send the bill back to the
- Commons wi,h an intimation that their lordships in-
sisted upon their amendments ; or whether it was pro-
, posed to wait, until after their lerdship's decision had
been taken upon the two bills introduced by Lord Lucan
• and Lord Lyndhurst ?
The Earl of HARD WICKE replied that her Ma-
jesty's Government considered the question was one for
the house to deal with rather than themselves. So far
as they were concerned they were desirous that the bid
should go down to the Commons as soon as possible.
Lord REDESDALE held that the proper course was
to send the bill back to the Commons, from which any
proposition for a compromise ought to come, and that
neither of the other bills should be entertained until the
bill which had been already considered by both houses
was disposed of.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY thought it inex-
pedient to send back the bill with the reasons of their
lordships for adhering to their amendments until they
had considered the other two bills, and determined how
. far they could adopt them.
The Earl of MALMESBURY considered the more
straightforward and dignified course was to intimate at
enne
te toto
the Commons that their lordships could not
abandoncon-
their amendments. There was nothing
to
bills prevent their doing this, and taking the other two
afterward,
more convenient
ILLE was of opinion that it would be
and having to deal with the question altogether,
bills which had determinedbean introduced
What they would do with the two
to send back the other
bill to the with
the amendments. the reasons for insisting upon
The LORD CHANCELLOR
lord-
ships that they had by a large
mareminded their
deterrnineci not
to acquiesce in any measure for aydini°crioltnattlng Jews) to Pa- -
liareent. and not to consent to an
ought
; t but r e
liyf
after all there was to be a cornprornbie,PKoriBeh
to proceed from the other house. The pro
as
to send back the bill with the reasons, and theunnief wa
noble lord chose to bring forward any measure by which
the difficulty might be arranged, it would be competent
for him to do so.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY observed that
the compromise had already been offered in the two
bills which the two noble lords opposite had laid upon
the table. ("No.") Certainly the object of those bills
was to settle this long-contested question—(hear, bear)
—sued to send back the other bill to the Commons with

course.
Viscount DUNGANNON was opposed to any com-
promise in the matter, objecting upon principle to ad-
mitting Jews into Parliament.
The conversation then dropped, it being understood
that the bills referred to would be taken next week, as
already arranged.
Their lordships adjourned at half-past 8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following private bills were read a third time and
passed :--Great Northern and Western (of Ireland)
Railway, Limerick and Foynes Railway, Oxford, Wor-
cester, and Wolverhampton Railway, Shrewsbury and
Welchpool Railway, and Waveney Valley Railway.
The following bills were further considered, and ordered
to be read a third time :—Hove Improvement, Durham
and Cleveland Union Railway, and St. Leonard's (Shore-

ditch) Parish.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA.
The house went into committee on the India resolu
tions :
Lord STANLEY moved the following resolution :
" That the members of the nominated portion of the
council shall be selected by her Majesty, subject, as a
general rule, to the qualification above expressed, and
one-half at the least of the elected members shall pea,
sees the like qualification." He said the vote of Monday
had placed the house in some difficulty relative to this
subject. Not only had the house decided that permanent
legislation should take place in the course of the present
session, but had fixed the number of the council, and
that the manner of electing should not be exclusively
that of the Crown. Speaking of the proposition of
looking to India for the appointment of a portion
of its council, the noble lord said that neither
the Governor-General nor the Governor of the
Indian presidencies could feel anything but an
indirect interest in the efficiency of the Indian council
at home ; and, on the other hand, they did and must
feel a direct and strong interest in that which was
immediately under their eyes, and subject to their
management, in the efficiency of the civil and mili-
tary service of India on the spot. There was the
danger that if they trusted to the Indian authorities
to select any portion of the Indian council here, it
could hardly be expected they would make so great
a sacrifice as to deprive themselves of the ser-
vices of the most eminent and efficient men, but
that they would send home men for whom they
desired to provide honourable retirement ; and there
was a great risk that, under such a plan, the portion
of the council so chosen would be made a sort of
shelf—a sort of honourable retirement for those whom
' the Governor-General of India had no desire further to
employ. If, however, a contrary result occurred, it was
quite obvious another result equally as inconvenient
would be arrived at—that of obtaining a maximum of
efficiency in the council here only at the sacrifice of a
maximum efficiency in the civil and military services
of India. Against the adoption of that plan there
had been a plan suggested by the honourable lord
the member for Carlisle. The Government had con-
sidered that proposition, and they were of opinion
it would not meet all the difficulties of the case. Her
Majesty's Government considered such a plan as that
suggested by the right hon. baronet would be open to
many and grave abuses. What was it, then, her Ma-
jesty's Government proposed ? They thought by the
decision of the committee on a former occasion that
part of the council should be nominated and a part
elected, that the real desire of the council was that the
exclusive right of nominating should not rest in the
' hands of the Crown—(hear, hear)—so as to lessen the
amount of patronage in the hands of the Secretary of
State for India. (Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Go-
vernment were prepared to accept the number of 15
councillors, and they proposed that in the first instance
eight of them should be nominated, and the remaining
seven, following to a certain extent the principle of
1853, elected from among their own number by
the Court of Directors, and the subsequent
appointments filled up alternately by the nomination of
the Crown and by election—the right of election to be
confined to the remaining members of the council. Such
a plan would get rid of the abuses that sometimes
existed in self-elected bodies.
Lord PALMERSTON considered that before the
committee was called upon to give a vote on this plan,
it should be embodied in a resolution and printed with
the votes for the consideration of hon. members. He
condemned the idea that they were to legislate for India
in a different spirit to the constitution of this country.
He asked her Majesty's Government and the;comnaittee
to deal with this council on the established principle of
the British constitution, and give to her Majesty's ad-
visers the power of naming the council the same as they
did the judges of the land, governors-general of colo-
nies, and other officers, which made her Majesty's
advisers responsible for them. He was opposed to any
hocus-pocus system of nominating certain portions of
the council. By the plan proposed the Crown would
have the majority of nominations, and he asked the
committee not to depart from the principles of the
British Constitution in theory, whilst in practice, by the
election of the council, they would adopt it. He called
upon her Majesty's Government to come forward and
support the principles of the constitution in the creation
of the council, and not depart from it in order to obtain
a few votes.
Mr. WALPOLE said that the plan proposed was not
a departure from the principles of the constitution, and
reminded the committee that the struggle between Mr.
Pitt and Mr. Fox was of a similar character to that
now before the committee. He approved of the plan
for various reasons, and especially that it would give
independence of action to the council more than any
other plan.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the noble lord, in moving his
resolution, had not touched on the tenour of office, the
salary to be paid, and other matters—important ques-
tions that must be embraced in any scheme before the
committee could adopt it, especially in one possessing
a mixed plan of nomination and election. He thought
the committee 'should not this day be called upon to
come to a decision on the plan before the committee,
which entirely did away with the seven resolutions on
the paper. He congratulated the noble lord the member
for Tiverton at drawing every debate:closer and closer to
the view of the hon. member for Birmingham, and if they
went on debating this question much longer he (Sir J.
Graham) felt confident the opinion of the hon. member
for Birmingham and the hon. member for Sheffield
would prevail. (Hear.) He considered India should
be governed by a responsible minister, with assistants,
He was glad the Government had given up the seventh
resolution. The scheme, however, before the committee
nearly approached direct nomination, the elective prin-
ciple being embraced in it. Under the present system the
Crown nominated five of the Court of Directors. By
this scheme eight were to be immediately nomi-
nated, and in the choice of the seven, five
nominees would exercise a voice in the election.
It was expedient that the scheme should be fully
developed
in resolutions ; and he suggested the matter
should stand over till Monday, when they should sit on
consecutively till they came to a decision on them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sub-
mitted it would be better to let the 6th and 7th resolu-
tions stand over, and get rid of the remainder at this
sitting. By so doing a bill might be introduced this
week and read a second time on Monday, when the pro-
posed scheme for the council, the term of office, salary,
lc., could be discussed better than at present, and legis-
lation for India thereby be completed this session.
Mr. BRIGHT said the mode proposed by the
Chanceller of the Exchequer was both ingenious and
just. He proposed to get rid of the difficulty by their
saying nothing more about it -(hear, hear)—and the
dropping the resolution. (Laugoter.) Resolutions
were determined on to discuss the question, so as not to
change her Majesty's Government on a discussion on
an Indian bill, but as there was to be no change of
Government beftra India legislation had been corn
pleted he thought it would be desirable to bring
in the bill as proposed as soon as possible. He ap-
proved of the proposition before the c )meeittee, and he
was a' about to get to a second reading of an India Bail
that he might address some observations generally on
the government of India at home and in that coountry.
After some remarks from Lord PALMERSTON,
Mr. GLADSTONE said it appeared to be the desire
jq, uc wished
tt hi oe n,
the. to-day, oHc- doe r
nay al,
of the committee not to come to a decision on the
i (Mr.at tn
Gt de
teat
dhn
Beot
not to
Chance nft
ulci eor
tl
thought
t o
cif
fotnthisel
consider
prxl
atc
hhn
ee
subwq ue
retr:
adopted they ought to drop discussion on the remain
( rig resolutions altogether, and wait for the bill. They
were not going to decide on the principle of election
or nomination, the tenure
whether they might have seats in i
no
parliamtheent
o;u nwhether
,
there should be a secret committee,
veryof salary
much
lshouldike
debteailgsi,vewnere which, and what amount
theugh it founded
matters of importance,
because they were closelyconnected
rank, consideration, and dignity ofthe coun-
cil,
with the
who were to constitute
propositionth of the
and the class of men
the council. If they `conceded the
council they conceded all these points If
to the suggestion of the Government in this ine3stiancehe
agreed
saw no reason for discussing the remaining resolutions,
whicb, to a great extent, were resolutions of details. )
gentleman, and thought it would be
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with the suggestion of
the right hon.
better now to proceed as soon as possible by bill.
He looked upon the scheme of the Government as a
scheme of nomination by the Crown. He asked an
explanation from the noble lord the President
of the Board of Control relative to patronage,
which would lessen discussion on this point—wh,_
tiler cadets were to be appointed by com-
petition ; and whether the council was to have communi-
cated to them the despatches on foreign affairs, as well as
these relating to the internal affairs of India. It was
necessary the council should possess a full knowledge of
all that referred to India, and some restraint should be
placed on their going to war. He should raise discus-
sion on the bill on these questions if the explanation
was not satisfactory to him. He thought the remaining
resolutions tuight be reported to the house that a bill
might be brought in as soon as possible.
Lcrd STANLEY said it was never the intention of
her Majesty's Government to take a final decision to-day
on the plan he had submitted to the committee, but to
give them time and opportunity for its discussion and
consideration. (Hear.) He did not consider the mode
tifow electionu proposed was an indirect mode of
trial
v_, i
_..tion. The principle of open competition was
i'luable, and might, be beneficial in its results on the
; at the same time, he considered •
outs it,a, ion of
undertake to do,
moreriment, than to give it a lair trial, on a