The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-14 00:00:00

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MS applied to individuals, but I am disposed to question the
use of "obsolete." (Laughter.) I presume it is meant to
exprefss " worut-out," but it does not make the epithet
more complimentary. (Laughter.) Put he described them
as obsolete inc .ndiaries and spouters of stale sedition.
(Hear, and laughter.; I question altogether the prudence
of denunciations of this vague and general kind by an ad-
viser of the C.-own and a leader of this House of Parlia-
ment, couched in terms whieli it is fraeto any person to
use agaitAt the most temperate expressions of the most
reasonable adversaries, which cannot be brought to any
distinct test, and which i.e does not at the time illustrate
by unfolding tho statement or the name of the person lie
thinks right to characterise. But I may say to the right
hon. gentleman that when authority comes into the field
for the purpose of forbidding or denouncing, unless it can
carry out the prohibition or denun-ciation upon tho point at
issue, the result is that authority loses its credit and
power. (Hear.) If there have been spouters of sedition in
London or elsewhere,nwho have received countenance
from men in this house, it is desirable that the right hon.
gentleman should cause these persons to be called to ac-
count before the proper tribunals, so that if guilty they
should be visited with the punishment they deserve, and if
not guilty, that the party making attacks of this kind
should be reprehended by the house. The difficulty which
the right hon. gentleman has to encounter arises from the
nature of the subject. The borough franchise is a question
of gloat breadth and depth, and the arguments which are
employed respecting it turn upon old constitutional
principles. The objections taken to it are not of a
character to be settled by an adverse vote of this
house ; fo:\ in the belief of those who oppose
the franchise, the distinction to be taken between
the possession or non-possession of a political right
is unjust, offensive, and adverse to the fixed and general
convictions of the people. (Hear, hear.) The right hon.
gentleman will readily draw a distinction between facticus
opposition and the sense of an obligation which cannot be
escaped from, to save the house, and save the Legislature,
and save the country, as far as possible, from the incon-
veniences and, it may be, the perils of aprotracted agita-
tion. After what has been said with respect to the Scotch
franchise, the right hon. gentleman is himself his own
most formidable difficulty ; for I tell him that no one hue
struck a heavier blow at the franchise for England than he
has by the Scotch plan, which confers the franchise with-
out making any offensive distinctions between man and
man. Let the right hon. gentleman do the same thing
with regard to the borough franchise for England, and all
difficulties will disappear from his sight, and he will have
reason to congratulate the house, and claim credit for
himself for having conciliated opponents and caused re-
sistance to disappear with regard to a subject upon which
all the minds of the people are both excited and exercised.
(Hear, hear.)
Colonel FRENCH submitted that no case had been
made out for the increase of Scotch representatives, and
that Ireland had a far stronger claim to an augmentation
of members.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I wish to
make a few observations on the bill I have asked leave to
introduce, and which the right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for South Lancashire assumes is so very different from
the English bill, but which the Government thinks is
identical with it. The principle of the English bill, that
the bona fide payment of rates should be the test of fitness,
for the franchise, is also the principle of the Scotch fran-
chise, and therefore, making allowance for the difference
between the two countries, lamat a loss to understand the
great distinction which is to create so much popularity as
regards the Scotch measure, and such distrust as regards
the borough franchise in England. With respect to the
English bill nothing has occurred in this house of
a discouraging character. It has been brought
in under circumstances of great difficulty; but,
after repeated discussions, the house has recorded its
opinion that the principle on which the bill is founded
is the right principle. To that principle the Government
mean to adhere, and if it were interfered with they would
no longer undertake the conduct of the measure, but upon
all other points they are prepared to consider the conclu-
sions of the house with sincere respect. With regard to
the amount of increase in ,the Scotch constituencies, the
effect of the bill will be to double the existing constituen-
cies, which number about 55,000—a number not calculated
t) alarm anybody. The county franchise, which will be a
copyhold franchise of £lO, will add a considerable number
to the existing constituencies, but not quite so many as iu
the case of the boroughs. Other objections have been
taken to certain details of the bill, which will be found
upon a more careful examination of its provisions not to be
well founded. I may also state that no apprehension need
be entertained on the subject of boundaries, as it is pro-
posed to appoint boundary commissioners in whose justi
and impartiality the country will have the fullest con:

dunce. Then comes the great question, where are all these
members to come from ? Will they come from their con-
stituencies? (Laughter.) The member for South Lan-
cashire says this is a practical, not to say constitutional,
question. But who made it a constitutional question ? The
right hon. gentleman, when I proposed the measure of
1852, said he did not see any magic in 658 ; there was no
cabalistic charm which should induce the House of Com-
mons to accept it. (Hear.) It is 'much more important
that there should bo a fair representation than to adhere
to any numbers, for it is a practical and not a constitu-
tional question. I shall make the proposal I have an-
nounced to-night, and I am convinced it will have the
support of the House of Commons.
After some observations from Mr. Crum-Ewing, Mr.
Kinnaird, Mr. Craufurd, and Sir G. Montgomery, leave
was given to bring in the bill.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.

The house then went into committee on the English
Reform Bill, and resumed the consideration of the third
clause.

An amendment, proposed by the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, to the effect that the compound householder
claiming to bo rated and placed on the register should pay
an equal amount in the pound to that payable by other
ordinary occupiers, received the opposition of Mr. AYR-
TON, who made a strenuous attempt to open up once again
the question of personal rating, in which, however, he
signally failed. For so little was the encouragement given
to him, that after a short speech from the Attorney-Gene-
ral, the amendment was put and carried sub silentio.
Mr. WC. TORRENS moved to insert words enfranchis-
ing persons, who, occupying separately, and as sole tenant
for 12 months preceding the last day of July, lodgings
which unfurnished would let at £lO a year, and having
resided therein for the six months preceding the same
date, should claim to be placed on the register of electors
at the next ensuing registration of voters. -
Mr. GOLDNEY proposed, as an amendment, that the
occupation should be of the same lodgings, that they should
let unfurnished at £l5 a year instead of £lO, and that the
residence should be twelve months instead of six.

The amendment of Mr. GOLDNEY was opposed by
Mr. GOSCHEN, who contended that a £l5 lodger fran-
z.hiso would be to all intents and purposes a middle class
franchise, and operate to exclude the most deserving of tho
working men.
Sir R. KNIGHTLEY condemned the lodger franchise
as opposed to the principle on which the Government said
they had founded their bill, and declared that the Conser-

vative party had better return to their former places than
abandon that principle.
Mr. T. HUGHES argued that the £l5 qualification
would exclude, at least, two-thirds of the people whom it
was the wish of the house to admit—the better class. of
skilled artisans.

Mr. SCHREIBER believed that 410 lodgers would com-
pare not unfavourably with householders below 410; but
as it was contrary to the principle of the bill he should
vote against both amendments until the lodger was pre-
sented to him as a person who deserved to enjoy a public
privilege by the discharge of a public duty.
In consequence of a suggestion by Mr. BRIGHT,
Mr. GOLDNEY intimated his readiness to withdraw
his am3ndment upon condition that Mr. Torrens would
insert the words "annual value" after ten pounds.
Mr. TORRRENS consented to this, provided it met
with the views of the Government.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, noticing
the observations of Sir R. Knightley, said that personal
rating and the payment of rates was not the only prin-
.

ciple of the bill; for there were other franchises contained
in it—as, for example, direct taxation and the possession
of money in the funds—with which it had nothing to do.
_ _

The principle of a lodger franchise had for some time been

accepted by the house, and the only question was how to

apply it in a satisfactory manner. - Upon the whole he

thought the payment of £lO, with the addition of the

words " annual value " supplied a fair solution of the

question.

A division was subsequently taken on the question
whether the term of residence should be six or twelve

months, and it resulted in the adoption of the longer

period by 208 to 145.
The proposal of a lodger franchise, with the above-
mtntioned qualification was then agreed to.
Mr. WATKIN moved to add as a proviso to the clause
—that no tenement should be considered dwelling-house
for the purposes of the bill which contained less than two

rooms.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assented to
the proviso ; and there seemed to be a general disposition
on the part of the house to acquiesce in it, but
Mr. NEATE rese,
.and protesting that the subject was
one of great importance requiring discussion, moved that
the chairman should report progress.
This led to another division, but the motion was nega-
tived by 235 to 48.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed
a hope that, Max this division, hoz members would allow