The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-13 00:00:00

It was true we were carrying on hostilities at Canton, but
these were not of such a nature as to call for so great an
extra expenditure. He believed that there was a great de-
sire on the part of the higher classes in this country to
keep up as large a standing army as they could, and they
took advantage of the state of feeling which the recent ex-
ploits of the army in India bad created in the minds of the
people, in order to further their ends. Public attention
had recently been directed to the state of our barrack ac-
commodation, and the Duke of Cambridge had taken ad-
vantage of that to call upon the people to exert a pressure
upon this house, in order that more money might be ob-
tained. If the Commander-in-Chief had taken the trouble
to see what barracks had already cost this country, he (Mr.
Williams) doubted whether he would have pressed for
more money. He (Mr. Williams) had moved some time
since for a return of moneys expended in barracks. Through
the destruction of papers which had taken place when the
Houses of Parliament were burnt, he bad obtained returns
only'. from the year 1834, and by these he found that since
that time 7,4L0,000/. had been expended upon barracks.
In addition to this it should be borne in mind that there
was in England, at the close of the war, barrack accommo-
dation for more than twice the number of men which had
composed our army. And he woull also remind the house
that, this 7,000,0001. included neither warming the hos-
pitals, furniture, nor barracks for marines. Into these
matifers there should be inquiry, for it was clear that had
$ notsystem of jobbing prevailed, the soldiers ought now
to be furnished with proper accommodation. There was
another point too to which he would venture to call at-
tention. There were at the present time no less than 3, 6
generals in the army, and 33 in the marines. A few years
lance and there were but three in the marines. These 346
genetals did not include those of the Indian army. He was
always willing that men who had served the country in any
department should be duly rewarded ; but these men were
promoted to the rank of generals simply through favour.
And the same state of things prevailed in the navy. In
1846 there were 153 admirals ; in 1851 there were 235 ;
last jell, there were 316, and the number now to be pro-
vided for in these estimates was no. less than 345. us
we had two generals for every regiment, and an admiral
call
and a half for every, large ship afloat. Ile would also
attention to the subect of the army clothing. The esti-
mates were not even made out so as to show what the re-
sult of the recent change of system had been, with the ex-
caption of the case per he Guards, and there we found that
the clothes cost 30 p cent. more than they did when the
Duke of Wellington was colonel
.of the regiment. He be.
lieved that in this matter gre9l jobbing and bribery pre-
vailed. 'Upon many other points he could have addressed
the house, but he would not weary them with details. He
hoped that the noble lord who was lately at the head of the
government would give some reason for the recent rapid
increase of the estimates, and that the right hon. gentle-
man opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would re-
member that it was this very question of providing for the
estimates which cost him his office when he was last in
power. He believed that these matters ought to receive
the careful investigation of the house, and he therefore
moved that the army and navy estimates be referred to a
select committee. He merely proposed that this commit-
tee should inquire into the extraordinary increase in these
items, and report the result of their, investigations to the
house.
Mr. KERSHAW seconded the motion.
Sir J. PAKINGToN declined following the hon. mem-
ber through his statements, many of which had, in his
opinion, little or no reference to the motion. He felt bound
to oppose that motion, and he trusted that the house would
agree with him that it would not be expedient to refer the
military and naval estimates of England to a select com-
mittee.

The house divided—
For the motion
For Mr. Williams' amendment 23-137

THE NAVY ESTINIATEi.

The house then went into committee on these estimates.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said,—lt will be in the recollec-
tion of the committee that when I moved certain votes on
account of the navy estimates I then stated that I should
consider it my duty, before any further grants of money
were asked for, deliberately to consider the amount of the
estimates which the late Government had submitted, and
to submit them on the part of her Majesty's present advi-
sers in such a shape as we, after full consideration, might
think Parliament ought to sanction. We have since given
our best attention to the subject, and now I trust I may
receive the indulgence of the committee while I proceed
to explain as briefly and clearly as I can in what respect
we are of opinion that some reduction may be made in the
estimates of the late Government, and in what respect we
think it impossible with prudence to make any reduction,
in which case it will be my duty to ask for the whole ex-
penditure they proposed. The committee will understand
that I referred principally to the first vote which I shall
have to place in their hands--namely, that for the number
of men and for the wages of seamen and marines. Now,
undoubtedly, the hon, gentleman who just divided the
house on the question of referring these estimates to a com-
mittee is perfectly right in saying that the naval force pro-
posed by the late and adopted by the present Government
is a very large one. It is, in fact, a larger force than that
submitted of late years; it is a larger one than was proposed
last year; but I am bound to say, after full consideration,
that in the opinion of the present Government our prede-
cessors took a bold and wise course in making that recom-
mendation to Parliament, and we cannot consistently with
our sense of duty propose any reduction in that force.
(Hear, hear.) I think 1 shall best discharge the task which
now devolves upon me by being perfectly frank and open
with the committee. I propose, then, to lay before them
the reasons which influenced the present Government in
adopting so high an estimate ; and when I have stated what
is the course we think neces,ery on this most important
subject I believe the committee will not hesitate now, and
never will hesitate, to vote whatever money may be neces-
sary to uphold the naval power of this country. (Hear.)
On a former occasion I explained the real difference be-
tween the votes proposed by the late Government for the
wages of seamen and marines in this and last year. The
number of men proposed for 1858-9 is, in fact, 3,000 more
than the ultimate strength which was taken last year. The
vote originally moved this time twelve months by the right
hon. baronet opposite was for a force of 33,0..0 seamen,
15,00: marines, 2,000 men, for surveying purposes, and, I
think, 5,700 men for the coastguard service. At a subse-
quent period of the year the late Government moved a sup-
plementary note for 2,000 seamen ; so that the total force
for 1857-8 amounted to 35,000 officers, seamen, and boys,
2,000 men for surveying purposes, and 5,700 fur the coast-
guard, amounting in the :whole, 55,700 men. The late
Government have proposed, and it is now my duty to pro-
pose, that this force shall be increased by an addition of
2,000 officers and sailors to man our ships, and of 1,000 for
the coastguard service. Hon. members will observe that
on the face of the vote the number of men for the coast-
guard service appears to [be raised from 5,700 for last
year to 7,380 for 1858-9. I wish, however, to explain
that, although there is an apparent increase to this
extent, the real difference, as I mentioned amounts
only to 1,000. The addition of 680 men is owing
to a transferfrom the civil to the naval portion of the coast
guard service. It. was the policy of the right hon. gentle-
man opposite, and I believe a wise policy, to get rid of the
civil portion of the coastguard establishment; and there-
fore this apparent increase of 680 men only consists in a
transfer from one branch of the coastguard service to the
other. The whole adliion, as I have said, is 2,000 sailors
and 1,000 coastguard men, and the vote which I shall have
to place in your hands for pa, ment of the wages amounts
to 2,401,509 t. The state of the case as respects the men
borne on the books of the ships is this :—When I move& th•
vote on occount I stated that the men actually on the
ho ,ks Note considerably beyond the number voted for
1857.5--I think to the extent of something like 1,000.
That number has increased, and we have now actually en
board our ships 1,621 more men and boys than were voted
last year. Assuming, therefore, that the committee will
grant the vote which I shall now propose, there will, in
fact, remain a balance of only 879 seamen out of the addi-
tional 2,000 to be voted. On the other hand, at this pre-
sent moment, in order to complete the manning of our
ships in commission, we want 1,313 more sailors than we
now have in those ships. The first topic to which I shall
call the attention of the committee in connexion with the
proof I hope to give as to the necessity of the large increase
proposed in the number of men will be the present state of
our forces in East India and China. In 185 ii only two
years ago, our force in those seas consisted of 17 ships,
carrying 333 guns, and manned by 3,151 sailors. The force
in East India and China at present consists of 75 ships,
carrying 953 guns, with a force of 11,8e3 men. Several
of these ships are now coming home, and six are on
their way home, carrying 154 guns, with 1,607 men; but that
will leave on the East India and China station a force of
61 ships, carrying 789 guns, and manned by 10,206 sailors.
It will be seen that this is a very large increase upon the
force we have had at any previous period in these seas, and,
in fact, amounts to a large proportion of the whole force
which we are now about to ask the committee to grant. I
am happy to say that a very great increase in our torce has
also taken place on the African coast for the suppression of
the slave-trade. I am quite sure that no disposal of our
n ival-force could be more acceptable to this house or more
in accordance with public sentiment in this country.
Nevertheless, in calling upon Parliament to vote the neces-
sary supplies for the naval service of the year, this is an
item which we are bound to take into account. In 18,55 (to
go no further back) we had upon the coast of Africa 20
ships, carrying 134 guns and 1,929 men. We have now
there a foi ce of 29 ships, with 21b guns and 3,353 men, so
that, in fact, out of the whole naval force in this country
there are at this moment, including the craws of ships
which are on their way home from India and China, be.
tweed 15,000 and 16,000 of our sailors ow upon the
tAhfiroik-
can and the East India and China stat
.. ione . While
llt will be satisfactory to the committee to ear of the
strength of these !squadrons, I shall not conceal from them
that the position of this country at home has not been
fully satisfactory. I think it far better to make this
avowal and ask Parliament to deal with it as they think
fit than to attempt to conceal facts which mustli be known
to every Government in Europe, and are, I beer,only
unknown to members of this house. (Hear, hetsr.) Until
s of war
within a very recent period we possessed no hip
s
which were not employed on foreign stations or In distant
portions of the empire. We had as a consequence no vessels
the services of which could be madeiminediatsly avails We.
Now, however, we have in our harbours some of the most
noble ships that ever floated upon the ocean—(hear) and
we are adding rapidly to their number. (Hear.) I cannot,
nevertheless, too emphatically call upon the committee to
bear In mind that ships are quite useless unless we have
the means wherewith to man them. (Hear, hear.) To the
difficulties by which this important question is beset every
one wlaohas filled the post which I have now the honour
Ip="Yihas had his attention most earnestly directed.
the most noble that we have now in our harbours some of
inform the commhietse that ever floated, but then I must
that owing to the want of men
they -are not readypfroeerseixrliate service. The Renown,
for instance, is at
she
Spitbead with one fri-
gate and two corvettes;
have
teas yet fully manned,
notwithstanding that endeavourares: been made to pro-
curs the requisite number of her for the last four
menthe. We have the Marlborough in Portsmouth he"r-
bour, waiting to relieve the Royal Albert in the Mediter
"mean, and the Enryalus Devonport—the two finest
ships of theirrespective classes which were ever constructed
but they are unable to proceed to their destinations owing
to the want of men. Although, therefore, the number of
mon for the service of the present year exceeds'that voted
last year, still it actually falls short by 1,300 of the number
required to man the vessels now in commission in our har-
bours. (Hear, • hear•) While, however, I make that state-
ment, I think I may confidently say thatin some important
respects this country is in a better position with respect to
the manning of her navy than that in which she stood
some time since, and I believe it requires nothing
than a fair degree of liberality upon the, part of the t
orlimousee
of Commons Co place that important subject 'Ton a mos
satisfactory footing. (Chcera ) lam also bound in justice
to the three Administrations which have immediately pro-