The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-27 00:00:00

REPORTING THE DEBATES.

Mr. LAURIE asked the C3mmissioner of Works
whether some mode of arrangement of the house could
not be adopted to ensure accurate reports of the speeches
of bon. members.

Lord J. MANNERS said he was not aware any such
complaint existed. No such communication had been
made to him from the gentlemen who reported the
debates on the subject ; but if the hon. member had a
plan on the subject and would submit it to him he
would take it into consideration. (Hear, hear.)

PASSING TOLLS, &c.
Mr. MACKINNON asked the President of the Board
of Trade what was intended to be done on the question
of passing tolls and local dues on shipping.
Mr. HENLEY said the Government had no intention
at present to introduce a measure on this much•vexed
question.

OFFICERS OF THE DOCK YARDS, &c.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE asked the Chancellor of the
Exchequer whether it was tho intention of the Govern
snout to review the position cf the officers of the dock-
yards and ♦ictualling yards as regarded their scale of
superannuations, or to adopt any memtires founded
upon the report of the Superannuation Commissioners,
1857!

Sir F. BARING asked if the scale of superannuation
as recJrnmended by the commissioners would be revised?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was the intention of the Government to revise the whole
cf the superannuation&
THE CIRCUITS OF THE JUDGES.
Mr. WARREN ipked the Secretary her the Home
Department whether the Government were taking any
steps to carry into effect the recommendation of the
Common Law (Judicial Business) Canonnissioners'
Report, particularly with reference to the re-distribution
of the circuits ; and, if so, whether by the authority of
the Crown or by Act of Parliament ; and whether such
arrangements will be completed against the ensuing
summer circuit..
1. 4e aIr.VirALPOLE said it would be impossible to
ttY arrangements till the corporation of Manches-
ter had made arrangements for holding an assize in that
town.

DR
—PARTMENT OF JUSTICE.
Mr' W* EWARTainquired of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer whether V measures were being adopted
by the Government
ment of justice ? r the establishment of a depart-
The CHANCELLOR of the
n EXCHEQUER said the
Government had not yet had
referred
of consider-
ing the particular proposition
ANNUITIES TO PROCTORS.
Sir Sir W. RHATHCOTE asked the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, what means had been taken by the Govern-
ment to bring under adjudication the claims of the
several parties who may be entitled to compensation
under_ the Probate Acts of last session ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
claims gent in anaou t-d to a quarter of a million annu-
ally. (Rear, n '
tire T,' and cries of " 01) "
. ) It was inacossible for
aury conajt? Consider them, and he had issued a Tre
cote, and Ii":_11 to the L,,rd Advocate,
Sir S. North-
investigate ti.,,,F:tt,t, zaa,ter
of
the Char
ENLlSTrq4eut in. (Hear
hear.)
to
Mr. G. VANSITraur (3Y, a9tobAaEr..)
or.ftzrW War
whether the project Ult. euliatie—"e SecretaryN.
the coast of Afrlca had been dnelit°""n
or other
only deferred : and whether any steglYnniTdc>teds on
to ascertain the practicability of
for enlisting
ser
veicafriT taken
natives in the Cape or eliewhere India. „r
other places where the climate had proved destructive
to the health of European troops ?
Mr. H. BAILLIE, after relating to the circumstances
de
similar to that given in the House of Lords, sai th
project bad fallen to the ground.
BARRACK ACCOMMODATION.
Lord EBRINGTON gave notice that after Easter he
should bring the subject of barrack accommodation
tract:Jr the no:ice of the house.
INCUMBE RED ESTATES COURT {IRELAND).
Mr. WHITESIDE gave notice that after Easter he

should introduce a bill for the better provision of the
sale and tranafer of land in Ireland. (Hear, hear.)

SUPPLY.

The house went into Committee on Supply when
several votes for miscellaneous purposes were agreed to.

THE BUDGET.

In answer to a question from Mr. WILLIAMS,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was his intention to make his financial statement as
soon after Easter as possible. (Hear, hear.)

CUSTOMS' DUTY. BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
THE NEW GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (who on
rising was received with cheers) said,-The vote of the
18th of February, by which a House of Commons recently
elected declared by an overwhelming majority that, in their
opinion, the Government of India should be transferred
from the',East India Company to her Majesty-however
various and conflicting the opinions then expressed by
those who joined in that vote as to the future form of Go-
vernment for India-appeared to those now responsible for
the conduct of affairs to be conclusive in one point-
namely, as to the termination of the authority of the Com-
pany. (Hear.) Sir, the very reason which had induced
many sitting on this bench to oppose the motion upon
which that vote was taken-namely, that at this period of
trouble and disaster in India it was unwise to diminish the
influence of authority there-(hear)-persuaded us after
that disparaging decision that it was impossible for the
East India Company to grapple successfully with the still
existing danger, and, I fear, the long enduring difficulty
which must attend the settlement of India. It is in defer-
ence to this conviction, and for no other reason, that I, on
the part of my colleagues, are now asking leave to-night to
introduce a bill fur transferring the Government of India
from the Company to her Majesty. But had we been in-
fluenced by other feelings,-had we acted solely in defer-
ence to the opinion expressed by the House of Commons--
I do not think we should have been justly liable to those
imputations which have been somewhat lavishly bestowed
upon our conduct. On the contrary, I believe there is no
want of precedents, and of the best precedents, in our Par-
liamentary history, when men who have been suddenly
called to the responsibility of office have found it ne-
cessary to treat a public question of pressing interest
and importance not strictly in accordance with the views
which they had previously expressed respecting it, bat
rather from regard to the position in which they
found it left by their predecessors. (Loud cheers.)
It is not necessary for me to prove the accuracy of
that statement, because there is an instance fresh in
the memory of this house and of the country which
I think would have fully authorised our conduct, even had
we acted only in deference to the -vote of the House of Com-
mons. Hon. gentlemen recollect that only three years ago a
distinguished member of this house moved for a committee
of inquiry into the state of the English army before the
walls of Sebastopol. It will be remembered that the Go-
vernment of that day-a very powerful Government -
staked its existence upon its opposition to that motion.
The motion was nevertheless carried by an overwhelming
majority-a majority as great, I believe even greater than
that which decided on the fate of the East India Company.
And what then happened ? The noble lord the member
for Tiverton was one of the most eminent members of the
Government which resisted that motion. By unexpected
and unforeseen circumstances the noble lord afterwards
was called to undertake the responsibility of forming a Go-
vernment. He disapproved the motion, and when he
formed his Government his opinions remained unchanged;
but the noble lord felt that on the whole it was necessary
to accede to that vote of the House of Commons, and him-
self to appoint the committee which he disapproved.
(Hear, hear.) No one, however, who eat before the noble
lord taunted him with his conduct on that occasion.
Every one felt that he took a course which it was his duty
as a sagacious statesman to adopt-a course which was in-
evitable under the circumstances then existing, and which
was, in my opinion and that of others, highly beneficial to
the public welfare. I say this in answer to imputations that
we act consistently in attempting to deal with the question
which I have to-night to bring before the house. (Hear.)
I do assure the house it is wielfno pride or exultation that I
fill the office which now devolves upon me. I am sure th©
noble lord (Palmerston) could not have been free from
emotion when he rose in this house, and proposed to abo-
lish that famous corporation which has so long commanded
the respect and admiration of every Englishman. I could
willingly have wished that it had not fallen to my lot to
perform a duty which I believe to be clearly for the public
advantage, but which I think no man who is not totally
devoid of sensibility can perform without some emotion.
This corporation has fallen, sir, from no inefficiency on the
part of its chief managers. (Cheers.) It Be certainly not
fallen from any want of talent, spirit, and devotion in its
admirable public servants. (Cheers.) It has fallen before
the inevitable consequences of time, of change, and of pro-
gress. The circumstances under which it was created and
cherished have gradually changed and passed away, and
though its fall at last has appeared to be sudden, those
who have given attention to its position could hardly have
doubted from the year 1853 that the time had almost ar-
tived, and that without any great delay, when the House
of Commons and Parliament would have to consider what
should be the most fitting substitute for an institution
which in its day has done great service to this couutry,
and which will always be remembered with pride and with
reverence. (Hear.) The East India Company has fallen
very much like that Italian republic which I always
thought it greatly resembled. It has fallen in possession
of a gallant army, a powerful fleet, and a considerable ter-
ritory. It has fallen with all the semblance of authority,
and it has met its end in the august fulfilment of its
duties. But when Venice fell under similar circumstances
it was discovered that, whatever was its outward show, it
rested on a foundation which had been sapped and was
hollow for a, long period of time. "Like -Venice, however,
the East India Company has left a legacy of glory to man-
kind; and in treating to-night of a form of government
which, in our opinion, ought to be substituted for that
which has become extinct I hope the house will allow me
to express my own feelings, and to speak of the company,
with that respect which I think every rightminded Eng-
lishman will always extend to its memory. (Cheers.)
Now, sir, the solution of the great difficulty before us
is how, as far as the Government of India is concerned
which is transacted in Great Britain, we shall combine
the promptness, the decision, the energy which are the
result of undivided authority, with the knowledge,
the experience, and the practice which only can be
furnished by a body of men of distinguished talents,
who have had considerable acquaintance with the
:various and vast forms of Indian life ? How we
are to make such a combination is the difficult solution
which I shall have to-night to attempt to accomplish. To
establish a British Minister with unrestricted authority,
subject to the moral control of a body of men who, by
their special knowledge, their independence-(cheers) -
their experience, distinction, and public merit, are, never-
theless, invested with an authority which can control
even a despotic Minister, and which no more Act of Par-
liament can confer upon them is, I admit, no ordinary
difficulty to encounter, and to devise the means by which
this may be effected is a task which only with the indul-
gence of this house and the assistance of Parliament we
can hope to accomplish. (Hear.) That leads me at once
to describe to the house the form of government in Eng-
land which we think ought to be substituted for that East
Indian direction which, if this bill passes, will have ceased
to exercise any authority. In the bill which I am asking
leave to introduce to-night that form of government will
take the following shape :-We propose, in the first in-
stance, that there shall be a high officer of State-a Minis-
ter of the Crown-who shall occupy the rank and fulfil the
duties of a Secretary of State. Iknow,raeumghemy_bethriant;
ono
discussion of last light-(hear, and al
ought, perhaps, to pause for a moment and apologise to
the house for proposing the creation of another Secret iry
of State. But I may be permitted to say for myself that
I never indulged in this objection ; and listening to the
discussion then, and on previous occasions, I have never
yet heard any satisfactory reason given which should
render the institution of an additional Secretary of State
in any case objectionable. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, I have
been always taught that the model administration we
should study and imitate was the old administration of
France before the Revolution, which was adopted by the
Republic itself on account of its efficiency, and which has
only ceased in Franca since the establishment of Imperial
institutions ; and in that old administration every Minis- 1
ter of the Crown was a Secretary of State, except the
President of the Council and the Chancellor. But I do
not wish to dwell upon this occasion upon that which,
after all, is rather a point of form than of principle.
(Hear, hear.) The new Secretary of State is to be, in
accordance with our plan, President of the Council of India,
and to have the power of appointing a Vice-President. The
point, however, upon which the home very naturally
wishes to dwell is, what is to be the constitution of the new
Council fur India---(hear) --over which this chief officer of
State is to preside. I shall therefore, if the house will
permit, address myself at once and without circumlocution
to that particular subject. (Hear, hear.) We propose that
the Council for India should consist of 18 persons. (Cheers.)
We further propose that half of that Council should be
nominated by the warrant of the Crown under the Royal I
sign manual, and that the other moiety-the remaining
nine members-should be elected. (Cheers.) I shall, in
the first place, treat of those members of the Council who,
in our opinion, should be appointed by the Sovereign.
Although our plan is that those nine members should be
thus appointed, we are still of opinion that each of those
members should have specified qualifications-that they
should, in fact, each of them represent some great interest
in India (Hear, hear.) They will in fact be, though nomi-
nated by the Crown, to use a popular phrase, " i epresenta-
tive men." (Cheers.) These nine members will be ap-
pointed in this manner. Each of the civil services of the
four presidencies will be reoresented. One of those nine
persons would be a member of the civil service who hail
served 10 years at least in the upper provinces of India, or
in those districts immediately under the authority of the
Governor-General A second would be a member of the
civil service of the lower province of Bengal, who had like-
wise
been in that service for 10 years. There would also be
a member of the Council forties civil service of Madras and i
one for that of Bombay. A fifth member of this division of
the Council would be required to have specified but rather
peculiar qualifications. We deem it to be of great
importance that in this Council of India there should
be some one person who possessed personal experi-
ence of the courts, character, and feelings of the
native Indian princes. (Cheers.) It appears to us that
one fault of our administration in India is that there
has been too great a disregard of the feelings of those native
princes -(renewed cheering)-and too limited an aequeint-
once with the circumstances of their territory and the eh.. -
raeter of its population. We have deemed it, therefore, of
importance that in this council there should be some nun
who should represent that eminent class with which, fr m
our experience in Parliament, many of us are f ire'l:er.
The area of selection is of course more limited in this ease
than that which is open to us in dealing with the civil
services of the three presidencies and the upper provinces,
because we require 10 years' civil service under the Go-
v:m entof India, five of which should have been passedaresident_o:
men political
whom w
agentlticale desire at the Court
ngofbysotmheis nat
native
prince. I:_nmeats
into::t!eerie7.,:i..luar.tem:h men as I recollect as distinguished
I, n
younger
~::::esr:lnn:..rtaentered Parliament- -
enen mennenetn, bowie when.
acquaintance Indian affairs
- men like &ihorough acclualntan
Jenkins,
who was so well
in his
detailed to the houshe7l,l"r he'll'.
cl.heei.r,tl)Lowe himself
that five out of the nin:,l'enTlVeViael wiA.iliwileave n 'w
thell iafour
militaryr e II
service':i 111-2'3 ettlib. ,l'clyi,?s,.ki require
represent,
shoulde n t
firstpossess,of all
tMadras,hat there Bombay,should baenda Bmeennagbiaer:ea
spectively'
sodas, ant tug
\varmies
require
the Council to represent the Queen s army who should

have served in India five years, and that there should also
be representatives of the armies of the three presidencies I I
have just mentioned, each of whom should have been em-
ployed in India in those services for a period of at least 10
years. Our object, so far as those nine members are con-
cerned, is that the Secretary of State for India in Council
should, with their aid, be in a position to command that
special and particular knowledge with respect to the cir-
cumstances of that vast region which it is so desirable he
should possess. (Cheers.) If, for instance, a question con-
nected with the affairs of the Upper Provinces should
arise, we should have the advantage to be derived from the
information of a man who had had a long experience of
that particular district. (Hear, hear.) If, upon the con-
trary, a question relating to the south of India—the cir-
cumstances of which are so totally different from those of
the North-Western Provinces—(hear, heae )---should be
brought under the notice of the Government, it would
have in this Council a high authority to which to refer. If
our diplomatic relations with the nativeprinces should be-
come a subject of deliberation, then you would have the
advantage of the assistance, in dealing with that subject,
of a man who had been face to face with those native
princes. (Hear, hear.) In short, in the consideration of
all those questions connected with our Indian administra-
tion which may arise you would have a fund of the most
authentic and various knowledge which a Minister could
command or desire. (Cheers.) But although you will
find in this bill that those nine members are to be nomi-
nated by her Majesty by Royal warrant, and that as often
as vacyncies in their number occur those vacancies are to
be filled up—and filled up only by persons possessing the
same special and specified qualifications as those predeces-
sors—yet it is the intention of her Msjesty's Government,
if the house should support them in bringing in this bill, to
introduce into the measure itself the names of the nomi-
nated members—(loud cheers) —so that, in fact, their ap-
pointment will have in the first instance not only a Royal
but a Parliamentary sanction. (Renewed cheers.) They
will therefore enter upon the discharge of their duties sup-
ported not only by the favour of the Sovereign, but by the
approbation of the representatives of the people. (Hear.)
I hope, sir, I need not state upon this occasion—indeed, it
is under any circumstances unnecessary to do so—that in
making the selection of the nominated members of the pro-
posed Council, the list of whose names I shall deem it my
duty in the course of these observations to present to the
consideration of the house, her Majesty's Government have
had no other object in view than, with the utmost pains
and with a due sense of the great responsibility involved,
to select for each particular post the best man
whose services they could procure, without the
slightest reference to his political opinions, or, indeed, to
any of those considerations or influences which often per-
haps exercise somewhat too great a control over public ap-
pointments . (Cheers.) The names of the nominee mua-
bars of the council will be submitted to the house upon
our responsibility, and with the assurance that in the se-
lection we have made wo have taken every pains to secure
to the country the services cf men of the highest ability
and moot influential character. ('-sear.) But their names
will be laid before the house, and even though it should be
e miss i'. . AnrA..nn in
of opinion that we Lave not exercisedl; 1.;
the selection we have made, it cannot at all events charge
u with not having appealed to Parliament frankly upon
the subject, or not having endeavoured to invest those nine
members, though they may be called nominees. (Cheers.) I
shill now proceed to advert to the other portion of this
proposed Council for India—namely, that which is to be
chosen by popular election. There is embodied in this bill
a qualification for four of the members of that division of
the Council, and it is of this character :—They may be
men who have served her Majesty or the Government of
India in any branch of service whatever for a period of ten
years. They may have been in the army, navy, legal, or
civil services in India. Those four places in the Council ate
open to any man who has served in any capacity her Ma-
jesty or the Government of India. They are open also to
any man who has resided in India for 15 years, and who
may have been engaged in agriculture, as a manufacturer
cr planter, or in commerce. Such are the qualifications we
propose for those four members, and we further propose
that they should be chosen by a constituency constructed
in this manner :—We propose that every person who has
borne the commission of her Majesty or the Government
of India for -0 years, and residing in this country ; or any
man who has been in the civil service of her Majesty in
India, or the civil service of the Government of India for 10
years ; that every p r ion who is a registered proprietor of
the sum of 2,00.1. of capital stock in Indian railways or in
any other public work in that country ; that all those
who are proprietors of at least 1,0001. in the public stock
of the East India Company, but exercising in this case only
one vote, should have the power of electing the four mem-
bers of the Council to whom I have adverte l. (Hear.) The
constituency thus formed will amount, as we estimate, to
about 5,000 persons. I have now to explain to the house
how we propose that the five other members should be
elected, and what qualifications will be required of those
who aspire to fill those offices. The qualification necessary
for the last five members will be this : —Thepersonschosen
must either have been engaged in commerce with India or
in the exportation of manufactured articles to that coun-
try for the space of at least five years, or they must have
resided in India for the s; ace of at least ten years. That
is the qualification which we propose to require for the last
five members of council. We propose that the election of
these five members of the council shall be confided to the
principal seats of trade and industry in this country ; that
one member shall be elected by the city of London, ano-
ther by the city of Manchester, a third by the town of
Liverpool, a fourth by the city of Glasgow, and a fifth by
the town of Belfast. (Laughter and cheers.) In this manner
the chief seats of trade in the three kingdoms will be re-
presented—London, Glasgow, and Belfast—and also that
great industry in this country which is more interested
than any other in the development of Indian resources, for
India sends us no manufactured articles, but she ought to
send us all the raw produce we require. I understand the
feeling of the house upon this occasion to be in favour of
exposition rather than of controversy— (hear, hear) —and
therefore I am limiting myself to narrating as clearly as
possible what is the nature of the bill WO propose—(hear,
hear)—of course, reserving to myself and my colleagues
the right upon all proper occasions of enforcing the policy
which we now venture to recommend. I beg the house,
therefore, to believe that it is not from any other motive
that I now confine myself as much as possible to a
clear narrative of the scheme we propose. I shall now
have to detail to the house the nature of the consti-
tuency which we think ought to elect those members,
whether they should be chosen by chambers of commerce
or corporations, or what other mode. No doubt the com-
mercial bodies of our great towns are respectable from the
character of their members, and deserve the greatest consi-
deration in dealing with a matter like that which we are
now discussing. But commercial bodies are not corpora-
tions, and it would be in the power of any be ly of men to
call thamselves a chamber of commerce without any inter-
vention of law and without the sanction of time. Munici-
pal corporations are also bodies which every one must re-
spect, but they are very limited in the number of their
members, and it is not, I think, doubtful that one conse-
quence of conferring the right of electing the council upon
chambers of commerce or upon municipal c.:rporations
would be a considerable crop of cadets in the Indian army
connected with the members of those bodies. We have
given to this point all the consideration which its import-
ance deserves. All that can bo said for or against has, I
doubt not, bean fully considered by her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and it is our opinion that the election of those mem-
bers of the Indian Council by the great seats of industry
should be intrusted to the Parliamentary constituencies of
those places. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) In arriving at that
conclusion her Majesty's Government believe that those
constituencies will always be animated by a sense of duty,
and will feel proud of the confidence which the State will
thus repose in them. I ought to state to the house that
besides the nine members who, according to the plan of this
bill, will be nominated by the Crown and whose names we
propose to insert in the bill, it is our idea also with regard
•to the first four elected members who in future will be
elected by what I may call a special Indian constituency
that in the first instance the names of those appointed to
them should be inserted in the Act of Parliament. Our ob-
ject in so doing is to secure for the new council the greatest
amount of experience and practical knowledge that can be
commanded. Most of those names have been decided upon,
and with the permission of the house I will rea. I them.
These are, as far as they have been fixed upou, the names of
the first nine members to whom I have referred. We pro-
pose, in the first place, Sir F. Currie, now the deputy-
chairman of the East India Company, and who was long
in the judicial service of the India Goverument. He has
been also Foreign Secretary to two Governors-General,
Lord Ellenborough and Lord Flardinge, a Commissioner at
Lahore, and a member of the Supreme Council. (Hear )
The next name that I have to introduce to the notice of the
house is that of Mr. Dorin, the senior member of council at
Calcutta, and formerly Financial Secretary. The first name
represents the service of the Upper Provinces, and the
other the civil service of Bengal. We propose that the
civil service of Malrasshall be represented by Sir H. Mont-
ee eery, who was formerly in the revenue and judicial ser-
vice of that presidency, afterwards secret ry to the Go-
vernment, and, lastly, a member of council, (Hear.) The
Bombay Civil Service, we propose, shall be represented.
by Mr. Pringle, who succeeded Sir Charles Napier as Go-
vernor of Scinde. He had before held hi eh office under the
Bombay Government. As what I may call the diplomatic
representative we propose Sir Claude Wade. He has held
high p litical appointments, and his name is well known
iu connection it it's Affghaeistan. (Herr.) He held a poli-
tical appointment at Peshewur in the Affghau war, he
forced the Khyber Pass, he was political agent in Central
India, and was Resident at Lahore. I have cow mentioned
the names of the four gentlemen whom we propose to re-
present what may be called the civil services of the four
presidencies of India, and also the name of the prop )sed
representative of the diplomatic service. Her Majesty's
army in Ladla we pro, oee shall be represented in council
by Lieut.-Gen. Sir J. Pennefether, now commanding at
Malta, and who was in the Crimea, and by Cul. Burltoe,
Commissary-General in the Bengal Army, who was also
in the Crimea. We propose that Sir R. Vivian, formerly
Adjutant-General at Madras, who since then has served in
the Crimea, and is new a director of the East India Com-
pany, should represent that branch of the service in the
council. The name of the gentleman to represent the Bom-
bay army is not before me. Having thus gone over the
! names of the first nine members of the proposed council as
far as they are decided upon, I will now locution the names
we propose to place in the bill whose successors will be ap-
pointed, should this measure become low, by what I have
termed the Indian constituency. The first of those names
is that of the present chairman of the Board of Directors
of the East India Company— the hon. member for Guild-
ford and I trust from what I hear that that hon. gentle-
man will be induced to undertake the office. (Hear, hear.)
his eminent talents, of
the
Cwohnicshidewrainagrahaiisl
whiigtuhespseoss,itaionud fact of his having ,
oc-
cupied the chair of the Board of Directors during exigen-
cies so severe as we have lately seen, I cannot but believe
that this is a selection which Parliament will sanction and
which the country will approve. The next name which we
propose is that of Capt. Sheppard—(!sear)—who is well
known as one of the most valuable directors ever elected
under the old form of government. ( Hear.) The next name
which I hey i to submit to the house is that of a gentleman
of greet ability, with whom we are well acquainted, as he
had longue seat among us—Sir J. Hogg. (Some murmurs,
and laughter.) I have no political connection with Sir J.
Hoge, as ha has always been opposed to the party with
which I am, but the ready talents and great knowledge
with which he has on every occasion advocated the inte-
rests of the East India Company I should have thought
would have secured for him the respect of all. At all
events he has been selected, after the gravest deliberation,
with no other object but that of securing a most valuable
member for the new Couecil. (Hear, hear.) Tire next
name which I have to propose is that of a gentleman for-
merly Foreign Secretary in Bengal and member of Coun-
cil, who is quitejiunrivalled,a believe, for his general
knowledge of Indian subjects--Mr.Prinsep. (Hear, hear.)
It, now becomes my duty to detail to the house the form
of procedure and the general duties which we propose
this council should follow and fulfil. We propose that
the Minister for India should have power to divide
the Council in committees ; that he should arrange
i.,,kie.ieoe,:tcommittees and exercise over them a general super-
swbeezzrvi
se:ezpeoLertihnatthiat
to
ahocualidl bae
minetehtienigmawfercooufntchiel ,
\
a tiaiwka it requisite, but that it shall also be in ,

the power of any six members of council to call a meeting
of the council if they signify their wish and intention in
writing to one of the secretaries. We propose that when
the council differs in opinion, if it is presided over by the
Secretary of State his opinion shall, of course, be conclu-
sive ; but that in that case he should express his opinion in
writing, and the reasons which have induced him to come
to that opinion ; and that privilege will also belong to
every member of the council. (Hear, hoar.) If the coun-
cil be presided over by the Vice-President, in the absence
of the Secretary of State, the majority of the votes will
decide the question, the Vice-President having a casting
vote ; but in that case the decision of the council must re-
ceive the sanction of the Secretary of State for India. I
do not know that it will be necessary for me on this occa-
sion to enter into auy details on this head of the subject ;
all that the house requires is to have the leading features
laid before it. ( !fear, hear.) Having, therefore, entered
fully into the composition of the council, having shown
that a Minister with such a council would be surrounded
by men who can on all subjects which may come before
them for deliberation bring to his assistance the greatest
amount of information and intelligence, having shown that
we have taken precautions that the council shall be inde-
pendent—(hear, hear)-- that it shall be animated by public
spirit, and that it bring English opinion to act upon
Indian experience—(hear, hear)—the house will now very
naturally wish that I should touch upon the other point
which next to the construction of the council excited most
interest in the recent debates, and respecting which the
country is most anxious— I mean the distribution of pa-
tronage. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—For how long are the members of
council to be elected ? _ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In the
beginning the period of retirement will be at the end of
the first two, four, and six years, but the permanent term
of tenure will be six years.

Mr. J. B. SMITHIWiII they be re-eligible?
Tee CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER--They will
be re-eligible ; they will not be competent to sit in Par-
liament, and the salary will be 1,000/. per annum, paid
out of the Indian revenue. Upon the subject of patronage
I shall not have to trouble the house at any length, because
the result of the arrangement which we propose will really,
generally speaking, not at all alter the present system of
distribution. Her Majesty will do directly that which she
does now indirectly. She will appoint the Governor-Gene-
ral the fourth member of council, the governors of presi-
dencies, the Judge-Advocate General, and so on. The
civil service will be elected in the first instance under those
regulations which at present prevail, and which have been
found to work so satisfactorily. Tho military patronage,
the naval and military cadetships, will be distributed
among the council, as they have hitherto among the Court
of Directors. The only change will be a formal change
which the transfer of all authority to the Queen renders
necessary, but virtually the patronage which is now exer-
cised by the East India Company will be exercised in the
same way, by the Council of India. There only remain
two points of groat importance on which it is necessary
that I should touch—one is the army, and the other is the
fines. of India. With regard to the at my, we propose to
make no change at present, except that which necessarily
results from the present scope of the bill. There will be
two armies iu India ; besides the Queen's forces from this
country there will be her Majesty's military and naval
forces in India. But we have included in the bill clauses
which authorise and will facilitate any changes in regard
to the military forces of India which circumstances may
ultimately show to be necessary. The only o her point
upon which I have to trouble the house is that of finance.
Wo have taken care in this bill to introduce all those pro-
visions which, so far as provisions in an Act of Parliament
can effect the object, will fix upon the revenue of India
alone the expenses of the Government of India. (Hear.)
We have also, of course, included in the bill a clause
which will insure that the accounts of the Indian Govern-
ment shall be laid annually before Parliament, and we
have endeavoured to establish a sufficieet and satisfactory
audit of Indian accounts in this country. (Hear, hear.)
But, having done all this, I am bound to say that the re-
lations between English and Indian finance remain to me
a sourceof great apprehension and anxiety. (Hear, hoar.)
I feel that the time has arrived when this house must give
to the sul•sject its most serious and attentive consideration.
(Hear.) I admit and I accept all those principles and opi-
nions which have been laid down and expressed in this
house as to theclaar difference which exists between Indian
a;eredsoEofngtleini
English revenue,
revueeneudef,o lri uruotl cannot conceal from myself
that the parallel instances of Canada and Australia which
guidance do not apply with
that comeletenese which I could desire to the state of
India. (Hear, hear.) There aro circumstances in India,
with a vast territory, and people of different races num-
bering 180,000,000, which in my mind make a marked
difference between the condition of that great peninsula
and our native colonies. (Hear, hear.) I accept the for-
mal defence of the finances of this country which many
honourable gentlemen have set up, and which techni-
cally and truly to a certain extent may be relied upoe.
But to my mind that defence is not all-sufficient, and a
great responsibility will devolve upon the Ministers and
upon the Parliament of England if they allow the state of
Indian finance to remain in the obscurity in which it has
too long been involved. (Hear, hear.) Able as has ever been
the administration of India, considerable and distinguished
as have been the men whom that administration has pro-
duce 1, and numerous as have been the great captains, the
clever diplomatists, and the able administrators of large
districts with whom the Indian Government has abounded,
the state of the finances has always been involved in per-
plexity, and India, that has produced so many great men,
seems never to have produced a Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. (A. laugh.) But, sir, it is impossible for us to shut
our eyes to what must be, or rather may be, the ultimate
consequences to the finances of England of such changes as
we are now proposing, and as were proposed by the noble
lord the member for Tiverton, in the Government of India.
Therefore, if the house shall pass this bill into a law, it
will be our duty to recommend her Majesty to authorise a
Royal commission to visit India to ascertain what is the
real financial condition of that country • to examine into
its finance iu all its forms, into the mode of keeping the
public accounts, into the collection, receipt, and application
of the public revenue, and into the system of contracting
debt, and to report gene, ally upon the subject, so that 'e •
may at last el-arly understand the condit on of its finances
ant the r.olation in which we stand to them, and ,nav not
only -prepare for the injurious consequences which, if we
are negligent, may accrue to our own financial condition,
but may, by timely and vigorous interposition, avert them.
I We are of opinion that this is a matter cf such paramount
importance that we have inserted in this bill a clause
providing that immediately after the act is Passed a Royal
commission shall repair to India to investigate and re-
port upon the financial condition of the country ; so that,
if our policy is approved, it shall receive the sanction
of Parliament as well as that of the Crown, and that
the commissioners may go out with such authority
as may ouable them to produce the beneficial result which
we anticipate from an interference which, iu our opinion,
can no longer be delayed. I have now, sir, given the
house, I hope, a clear—(cheers)—account of the principal
features of the bill which we are now asking leave to in-
troduce. There are, of course, many details upon which
I have not touche I, and upon which it would be weari-
some to dwell at this stage ; but I have endeavoured to
put the house in possession of the chief provisions which
this bill contains. It contains a plan—the first which has
ever been submitted to Parliament--for establishing a
Council for India, which shall be distinguished for its
knowledge, for its especial information, for its high cha-
racter, an I. for its comp'ete independence. (Cheers.) We
have endeavoured to form a plan which should not, in the
chauges which are inevitable, take the patronage away
from the East India Comp my only to place it in the hands
of the Crown. (dear.) We have directed our minds to
these two objects of pressing and immediate interest, but
WO have not forgotten an object not less important--an
object without which no form of government can flourish,
no patronage can long be valuable—we have nut forgotten
that it was our duty to provide for future financial secu-
rity, and to lay the foundation in India of that which is
the only basis of public welfare—a sound state of public
wealth. (Hear.) I hope, therefore, that the house will
allow her Majesty's Ministers to introduce this bill.
(Cheers.) I have asked leave to bring it in to-night—pro-
bably on the eve of our separation—because I wish that
the house and the country should have a full opportunity,
of °shining and steilying its provisions. (Hear.) Believ-
ing that them provisions are calculated to promote the
welfare of the empire, that they will lead to the renova-
tion of India, that if they aro adopted we shall establish
in this country a government for India, so far as that coun-
try can be governed here, which will be distinguished for
its aptitude and adapted to every contingency which
may occur, I with confidence place in the hands of the
Speaker the motion of which I have give, notice
and ask the permission of the house to introduce'
this bill for transferring the government of India from the
East ludia Company to her Majesty. (The right hon.
gentleman resumed his seat amid cheers from both sides
of the house.)
Tho question having been put from the chair, " That
leave be given to bring in a bill to transfer the government
of India from the East India Company to the Queen."
Mr. ELLIOT asked how the members of the councils of
the presideucies were to be appointed ?
The CUA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—We do
not propose to interfere with any powers which aro at pre-
sent possessed by the Governor-General, or are exercised
in India, and therefore there will be no change in the
mode of appointing these members of Council.
Mr. It. P. NISBET asked whether compensation was to
be given to those members of the Court of Directors who
might not be made members of the Indian Council? (A.
laugh.)
Lord PALMEInTON—I only have to say that I give
my cordial assent to the motions, fur leave to introuuce
this bill. At the same time, I hope that the right hon.
gentleman and the house will understand that I reserve
any opinion which consideration may lead me to entertain
as to the details of the measure. ( Hear.) I presume that
the right lion. gentleman will bring the bill in this evening,
so that it may 'be in the hands of members and of the pub-
lic during the recess. I wish it to be uuderst tud that,
while concurring in the motion, I do not give any opinion
upon the various details of the measure. (Hear, heat )
Mr. GILPIN had no objection to the introduction of the
bill which the right pun. gentleman had so well and so
ably explained—(hoar, hear)---but he must suggest to the
right hon. gentlemen that while he provided for the re-
presentation of the Indian services, and to a certain extent
of the Indian princes, lie hail omitted to give a representa-
tion to the millions of Indium who were not princes, but
whose happiness was deeply involved in the arrangement
which might be made for the government of the country,
(Cries of " Oh, oh," and interruption.) He did not claim
for himself any greater anxiety for the welfare of the na-
tives of India than was entertained by the authors of this
bill; but he hoped that when the house proceeded to its
consideration it would be remembered that our business in
India, if we heel any business there, was to govern that
country for its own benefit, rather than for the benefit of
England. (Hear )
Mr. MANGLES said that, before ho addressed to the
house the few remarks which, in the position which he oc-
cupied, he felt it his duty to offer, he must express to the
right hen. geetleinan the Chancellor of the Exchequer his
certlial acknowledgment of the terms—worthy of the great
body of which he (Slr. M angles) was the himili!e represen-
tative and of Idieself—in which he hal spoken of the past
services rendered to their country by the East India Com-
pany. (Hear, bear.) He was persuaded! that after tem-
porary feelings and jealousies should have passed away it
would be universally acknowledged that the East India.
Company had deserved well of their country, and that
whenever their powers and functions might expire they
wend l leave to Eagland a noble legacy. (Hear.) As the
representative of that great corporation, and as believing
that the Government of India had been on the whole a
good an 1 beneficial one, it would be his duty to oppose the
introduction of any bill intended to take from the Company
a power rt hich had been so well exercised. But ho was
bound to state, at the same time, that if it should be the
will of Parliament to deprive the Company of its functions
ho and his colleagues would be prepared, in the fultihnent
of their duty to the people both of England and of India,
to give their most cot dial assistance in rendering the now
system of government as good and as efficient as possible.
(Hear, hear.) The Company of course received to itself 1
the fullest liberty of canvassing the provisions of the bill

about to be introduced, and of endeavouring to have them
altered, if such might be considered necessary in commit-
tee. (Hear.)

Mr. WHAT remarked that the bill shadowed forth by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to present a very
favourable contrast to the measure introduced by the late
Government. There were ingredients in it which he recog-
nized with much satisfaction, and which he was sure would
command the approval of the class to which he had the
honour to belong. (Hear, hear.) At the same time he was
doubtful whether the Council for Indian Affairs, as proposed
to be constituted, would work as satisfactorily as the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer appeared to anticipate. In the
English constitution a combination of aristocratic and de-
mocratic elements was productive of good results, because
of the existence of separate chambers ; but it yet remained
to be proved whether the same advantages would result
from an amalgamation in one body of the two kinds of in-
fluence. He could not resist expressing his hearty approval
of the concluding remarks of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, but he should have beon more satisfied if the right
hon. gentleman bad said something with regard to the cre-
ditors of the E a-, India Company. The third clause of the
late Government Bill transferred the property of the Com-
pany, amounting to about 30,000,0001., to the Crown, but
it did not propose that the Crown should become respon-
sible for the Indian debt. He trusted that the bill about
to be introduced would be more satisfactory in that re-
pact. (Hear, hear.) He regretted that some considera-
tion had not been given to the claims of the natives of
India. The time had not yet arrived for the in-
troduction of representative institutions into India; but he
thought that one or two of the members of the Supreme
Council in Calcutta might be chosen by the Governor-
General trom the Hindoo and Mahomedan classes. (Hear.)
Sir E. PERRYsaid there appeared to be two main points
of difference between the present bill and that of the late
Government—viz., the enlargement of the Council from
8 to 18, and the introduction of the elective principle as
regarded one-half the members. Now, as during the recess
they would hare to consider the comparative merits of the
two propositions, whether the Council should consist of
eight or 18 members, it was desirable the house should
know what the functions of the Council were to be. Was
the Council to take an active part in the conduct of Indian
business, or was it to be merely a reviewing body, called
together on certain days to express an opinion upon the
proceedings of other parties ? If it were intended that the
members should be mere nonentities, with no real share in
the Government of India, probably 18 would be a very
good number, bat if the Council was to be an active body
it ought to consist of fewer members. He wished to know,
therefore, what functions it was expected to perform ? He
might also be permitted to inquire whether the members
were to devote their whole time and attention to the busi-
ness committed to them ? It appeared to him that in the
construction of the bill too much attention had been paid
to class interests. The restrictions placed upon the ap-
pointments of the Council would have the effect of exclud-
ing some of the ablest men in India. The principle ought
to be to represent the different interests in India connected,
with the revenue, the judicial, civil, and military'depart-
ments. He felt bound to pay his tribute of admiration to
the right hoc: gentlemiin for the speech he had just made,
and particularly for the concluding observations. It
seemed that grave attention was about to be paid to
the finances of India. He had on former occasions called
attention to the dilapidated state of those finances,
and now that Government was to take up the matter
he fit that nothing but good could result One
beneficial effect of the recent change of government was
that now both the parties in that house were occupied in
framing a better government for India than that country
had hitherto had. (Heart hoar.)
Mr. BLACK said that, as the membsrsof council for the
great towns were to be elected by the Parliamentary elec-
tors, the consequet,ce would be that in respect to such a
town as Glasgow, for iustance, the 18,00 J registered elec-
tors there would probably have nothing‘to do either with
commerce or manufactures connected with India. More-
over, he thought that the eapital of Scotland ought not to
have been omitted in the list of those towns—(laughter)--
for, though Edinburgh did not export cotton or broadcloth
to India, it exported men. No town in the kingdom sent
so great a number of men to India as Edinburgh.
Mr. VANCE rose and, amid general laughter, claimed,
in consequence of the observations of the hon. member for
Edinburgh, a representative in the council for Dublin.
Mr. WYSE inquired whether the Council was to sit in
Leadenhall-street or Cannon-row ?
Colonel SYKES begged to be understood as reserving to
himself on the second reading of the measure full liberty
to repeat the objections he had on a former occasion urged
to the introduction of any bill whatever. The proposal of
the right hon. gentleman comprehended so many complex
arrangements that he thought they must be reduced to
greater simplicity to be carried out at all. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer bad observed that it was of the greatest
importance to send out a commission to India to inquire
into the state of the finances. Why, if the right hon. gentle-
man sent to the India-house he might have any account
with respect to the finances of India he pleased, to the
lowest figure; but the effect of this roving commission
wAtld paralyze the Government of India, for people there
would regard it as being sent out to spy into their actions
and destroy their power. He would ask whether it was
intended that the patronage of the whole Indian Army of
300,000 men was to be lodged in the hands of the Horse
Guards!?

Mr. 00X said that in consequence of the recent change
of Ministry they were likely now to have a much more
liberal scheme of government for India. He was pleased to
hear that four members of the council were to be elected
by four great towns, and that the electors were to be Par-
liamentary voters. Now, seeing that the Directors of the
East India Company wera elected by ballot, he wanted to
know whether the right hon. gentleman would object to
the use of the ballot in the election of those members of
• )uncil. (Cheers and laughter.) The right hon. gentleman
had adverted to the civil patronage of India and had stated
how it was to be distributed, but he had not mentioned
whether or not the whole patronage of the army in India
was to be handed over to the Horse Guards.

The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said he had
been asked what were to be the duties of the council, and
he had to observe in reply that the duties of the council
were to be the transactions of all business connects -.l with
the government of India that could be transacted in Eng-
land. They will have the entire transaction of that busi-
nese, and from the details laid before him ha thought that
it would require that which would 113 exacted from the
members of council—the total devotion of their time. No
gentleman would be a member of the council who was an
active member of a profession, or engaged directly or indi-
rectly in trade or commerce. Of course, with respect to
those members who were elected, that rule could not ap-
ply, and it was desirable that the council should contain
some persons who were familiarly acquainted with the
commerce and trade of the country. With respect to the
qualifications for members of the council in consequence of
residence in India, that applied to all the dominions under
the authority of the Governor-Gone:al ; and therefore the
Punjaub and Scinde were included. to had been asked
whether the council was to sit and transact business in
Cannon-row. The hon. member who made that inquiry
was lot so familiar as himself with the quantity of busi-
ness that must be transacted and the space required for its
transaction. He could assure the hon. gentleman that
the
,building in Cannon-row would not be able to hold
the council. Where, ultimately, the members of council
might be collected together it was not for him to say. No
doubt they would be able to place themselves in some con-
venient locality; but for the present the council must trans-
act its business in Leadenhall street. Some hon. gentlemen
seemed to think that under the bill the whole military pa-
tronage of India would b 3 handed over to the Horse Guards.
Certainly, he must have conyeyed his meaning. in very,am-
biguous phraseology if he were misunderstood on that
point, but he thought he had clearly stated that the patro-
nage of the military establishment, added to the cadet-
ships, was to be distributed among the Council, and by
them distributed among the people in the same way as
was now done by the Board of Directors. An hon. mem-
ber had suggested that the members of the Council should
be elected by ballot. As the noble lord opposite said with
regard to the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland, that when the
whole of Ireland concurred to put an end to it the House
of Commons might agree to its abolition, so he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) said that when the whole of this
country should be unanimous for the adoption of the vote
by ballot the Government would then give the hon. mem-
ber's suggestion the graveet cunsidtration. (Hear, hoar,
and laughter)

Mr. V. SMITH said that the right hon. gentleman had
stated that the President of the Council, or Secretary of
State for India, as he was to be called, might summon the
Council together whanever he pleased, but ho wanted to
know whether it was to b 3 compulsory for that functionary
to call a meeting of the Council. He also wished to ask
whether the Vice-President of the Council was to be a po-
litical officer and a -member of Parliament, who would re-
tire from office along With the Minister who was Prot ilent
of the Council for India? He wished further to put a ques-
tion to the right hon. gentleman with regard to the func-
tions of the secret committee. Under the existing system
the President of the Board of Control might send orders
relating to peace or war, and to negotiations or treaties
with foreign States, through the secret committee, but that
committee was a mere mane. It was, in fact, the Presi-
dent of the Board of C ,ntrol. The members of the secret
committee were bound by oath not to divulge any thing
communicated to them by the President as to proceedings
to be adopted in India, but they could not object to or re-
monstrate against any decision of the President. He (Ur.
V. Smith) wished to know whether it was intended that
the Secretary of State for India should a3t by himself
upon such questions as he had mentioned, or whether it
would be necessary for him to consult the whole Council
of 18 members?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who spoke
in so low a tone as to be very itd.stinetly heard in the
gallery, was understood to say that it would not be com-
pulsory upon the Secretary of State to consult the Coun-
cil. It had not been considered desirable to fix any time
for the meetings of the Council, and he thought hat, under
the provisions of this bill, the action of the Indian Coun-
cil would be very similar to that of the Cabinet. The
Council might be divided in committees for the transac-
tion of various descriptions of business. Councils might
be held three or four times a-week if it were thought neces-
sary, but it might not be requisite that they should meet
so frequently. It had not boon deemed advisable to pro-
vide for any compulsory meetings of the Council, and the
Secretary of State would be entirely free to exercise his
discretion on the subject. The bill would, however, pro-
vide that a meeting might be called at any time upon the
requisition of six members of the Council. (Hear, hear. )
He might state, also, that six members would constitute a
quorum. The Vice-President of the Council was not to be
a political officer, and could not sit in Parliament. There
would be no difference between the Vice-President and the
other members of the Council beyond his appointment as
Vice-President, which would entitle him to preside in the
absence of the Secretary of state, but he would not receive
a higher salary than his colleagues. The bill provided for
the appointment of a secret committee, in deference to the
precedent set in every act for the government of India since
the time of Mr. Pitt, and from the conviction of her Ma-
jesty's Government that it was better to adopt that plan
than to leave the Secretary of State free to act without
concerting with his Council. Hon. gentlemen would, how-
ever, have an opportunity of considering all the details of
the bill during the recesi._ (Hear, and a lough )
After a few words from Mr. CIIEETIIAII and Mr. HORS-
MAN,

Sir T. COLEBROOKE inquired whether the President
of the new Council would have the entire control of Indian
finance both in India and in 'his country, and whet► er he
would be empowered on his soh authority to overrule any
opinion that might be given by the Council. The provision)
of the measure appeared to be so complicated that he
would not venture to express any opinion upon it until he
had had an opportunity of considering its details. He un-
derstood from the right hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) that it was intended to maintain the army
in India in its present state, but to give certain powers to
the President and Council with regard to its future regula-
tion. Re Colebrooke) strongly objected to commit
such powers to a single branch of the Administration with.
out the concurrence or Parliament.• Our present army iu
India comprised a considerable European force, which had
been enlisted for local service in that country, and, as he

understood the right hon. gentleman, the powers confer-
red by this bill would enable the President and Council to
increase the national army without the consent of Par-
liament. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would re-
consider the provisions of the measure relating to this sub-

Mr. SLANEY thought this bill had been framed in a
most liberal spirit; and he congratulated her Majesty's
Government upon their proposal to give a voice in the
government of India to the constituencies of large towns
in this kingdom, which were especially interested in the
Indian trade.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the question before the house
was one of immense importance, and he would not at this
moment venture to express any opinion as to the scheme
propounded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was
evident that much labour and thought had been bestowed
upon the subject by her Majesty's Government, but be
deemed it essential that ample time should be affor ed for
considering this bill, and he presumed that it would not
be brought forward immediately on the reassembling of
the house after the recess.

Mr. ROEBUCK, admitting that party feeling ought not
to influence members of that house in dealing with a ques-
tion of this nature, must say that he did not think this
bill would attain the object which the right hon. gentle-
man who introduced it professed to have in view. He
(Mr. Roebuck) understood the main objection to the pre-
sent government of India to be that it was a double govern-
ment, but that the President of the Board of Control was
the real Governor of India; while by the system which
existed he was enabled to act under the shadow of the
Court of Directors in his own name and in theirs. The
right hon. gentleman proposed that the real Governor of
India should be a Secretary of State for India, and that
he should be assisted by a Council of 18 members, chosen
partly by the Crown and partly by election, thereby giving
the colour of popular support to the really despotic prin-
ciple of the government to be established. He (Mr. Roe-
buck) held that, from beginning to end, the proposal
was.a great sham. (Laughter.) Hon gentlemen might
laugh, but the result would show whether he was right
or not; and he was quite prepared to maintain that
the present system of Indian government was a great deal
better than that which the right hon. gentleman proposed
to establish.

Mr. BRIGHT observed that this bill had been intro-
duced that evening in order that hod. gentlemen might have
the opportunity of giving it a fortnight's consideration
during the recess. Hehoped that even a longer time might
be afforded before the bill was pressed upon the attention
of the house, but he trusted the right hon. gentleman and
his colleagues would during the recess reconsider some of
the details of the measure. He (Mr. Bright) had been a
great opponent of the East India Company for the last
eight or 10 years, both in and out of Parliament, but he did
not regret a single word he had ever spoken with regard to
that Company ; how could he, unless, indeed, he found
that he had -ever said a word in its favour? ( A laugh.)
He was opposed to that government, not because he thought
that the hon. member for Guildford or the other gentle-
men who formed the Court of Directors were disposed to
do what was wrong—on the contrary, he believed that
they were disposed to do what was right ; but because
there appeared to be a total want of responsibility. (Hear.)
Nothing could ever be traced, and it was impossible to lay
hands upon those criminals who ha l committed those great
crimes which it was universally admitted throughout the
country had been committed against the population of
India. It 'was proposed now to change the government of
India, and there were two propositions before the house
for that purpose, and as far as regarded the question of re-
sponsibility alone, without pledging himself to any Anal
opinion,.he doubted whether, upon the whole, the propo-
sition of the noble lord the member for Tiverton was not
better than that of the right hon. gentleman. He spoke
with regard to the question of responsibility alone, and he
thought that the President would be more rest onsible with
a council of eight than with a council of 18. (Hear.) He
did not attach much importance to the theory which had
been advanced with regard to the popular election of the
members of the Council. The judges of the laud were
not elected by the constituencies of the United Kingdom
but yet they are unusually and properly looked upon as
being independent of the Crown and of Parliament; and
he thought that members of the Council not chosen by
election would perform their duties just as well as those
who might be elected by old Indians, or by Manchester
manufacturers, or merchants who some time in their lives
had exported goods to India. (A. laugh.) He was afraid that
the proposition that four orfive large constituencies should
elect those councillors savoured of what was generally
called clap-trap. (A. laugh.) He was not speaking with
any feeling of hostility to the present occupants of the
Treasury bench—(hear, hear) —on the contrary, if a change
in the present Government involved the return to office of
their predecessors no man in that house could be more de-
sirous of keeping them in the position which they now
occupied. (Hear, hear.) The subject, however, was one
f.r beyond the consideration as to which side of the house
the noble lord the member for Tiverton should sit upon.
(Hear.) It was the business of the house, irrespective of
all such considerations to provide the best possible govern-
ment for India that it could. lie had iu private conver-
sations warned some of the occupants of the Treasury
bench against some of the errors into which it was possible
'they might fall, and he could not be supposed to bb making
the present observations in any feeling of hostility to them.
His only object was to endeavour to press upon the Go-
vernment during the recess of reconsidering some of the
provisions of the bill with all that care and attention
which he hoped would be bestowed upon the subject by
every member of that house. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
that the result of that consideration would be a measure
founded upon broad, general, and simple principles, for
there was 133 scheme so foolish as a complicated scheme
which, by various ramifications, tended to catch somebody
here and somebody there, or indirectly to grapple on the
one side and with something else on the other. He trusted
when they met again after the recess that, without any
party spirit, the house would enter calmly and seriously
into the question of eat iblishing for India the best possible
form of government. (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. VERNEY denied that India had been misgoverned.
Both the noble cord the member for Tiverton a d the right
hon. gentleman opposite had paid a high tribute to the
efficiency and ability of the public servants o, India, and
he was convinced that no government which had ever existed
had produced more able or more illustrious men.
After some remarks from Nr. THORNLEY which did not
reach the gallery.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that many
of the questions which had been addressed to him would be
more appropriately answered at a future stage of the Bill.
There was one, however, which perhaps he ought to notice,
which was whether those members of the Council elected by
the great towns would be expected to serve. To that he
could reply that certainly they would, and to devote their
time and energy to the duties of the omce. With regard to
the, question of the noble lord the member for London, ho
proposed to take the second reading of the Bill on Friday,
the 16th of April
_ _

Lord J: RUSSELL suggested that it would be better to
postpone it unql Monday. the 19th of April.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed to the
suggestion, and the second reading of the Bill was fixed for
that day. _ _

Leave, was then given to introduce the Bill, and it was
subsequently brought in and read a first time.

LOAN SOCIETIES.

Mr. HARDY obtained leave to bring in a bill to repeal
the Act of the 20th and 21st . ears of her Majesty, chap 41,
and to continue the Act of the 3d and 4th years of her
Majesty, chap. 110, to amend the lows relating to loan
societies.

The 13111 was brought in and read a first time,
CONSULAR SERVICE
On the motion of Mr. S. FITZGERALD, the following gentle-
men were nominated to serve on the Select Cora ittee on
Consular Service and Appointments : Kr. S. Fitageraid,
Mr. Milues, Viscount Palmerston, Mr. Henley, Mr Horsfall,
Mr. Wilson, Mr. Witte, Mr. Btamley Moore, Mr. Kinnaird,
Sir John Walsh, Mr. Lindsay, Lord C. Hamilton, Lord
Robert Cecil, Mr. Gregory, and Sir Minto Farq•thar ; power
to send for persons, papers, and records ; five to be the
quorum.

REGIMENTAL BANDS.
General CODRINGTON moved for a copy of the War-office
Letter of the 12th day of October, 1857, declining to sanc-
tion the recommendation of the General Commanding-in-
Chief, on the subject of reg mental bands.—Ag eed to.
' The SOLICITOR-GENERAL move i for certain returns
connected with expenditure, &c., of the Court of Bank-
ruptcy.