The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNF

and stating, in reply to hs correspondents in North
Bay Company's Charter, and the trade of the company ;
i
contest the legality of the Hudson's Bay Cortpdaony s
America, that he considered it no part of his duty to
rights ; and if they wishedt)do so they,
Govern-
upon their own responsibility. themu' matter
was one which concerned her Majesty's
ent and that house, and they ought fully to consider
the matter before they proceeded to colonisation. °He
said, " Tiaey,should surrender such portions of the terri-
tory as were claimed by Canada." Now that was beg.
HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. ging the whole question. Why should such landa be
Mr. ROEBUCK proceeded to bring forward his mos conceded to the Hudson's Bay Company ? By what
tion respecting the position and privileges of the Fled- authority were they entitles to them ? It seemed to him
son's Bay Company, He said that at that late period of to be a matter which concerned the whole empire, and
the session he should not have felt justified itita i einguapt not to be confined to the Hudson's Bay Company nor
Canada i Canada, were in ion of the
their time with any question that was not of very gre
he manage it. The real question was, whether the Hudson's whole ofn the vastarticular territory, she wouldp n osotsess be able to
importance, but the interests of the empire were, be,
Erred, deeply concerned with that one which he was Bay Company's door was to be closed to the rest of the
world, or whether it was to be thrown open to the rest
talent to introduce, and he thought it therefore desirable
that an understanding should be come to between the of her Majesty's subjects. The noble lord read, also, a
government and the house on the subject. At present letter from Mr. Shepherd, referring to the Hudson's
.Ray
Company's advantagesin th • trade in furs and various
their
- the continent of America was thus divided: the southern
other commodities, and having urged that those exclu-
d most important belonged to the United States ; the
sive advantages in trade operated with them to exclude
territory pf England stretched from the Atlantic to the the rest of her Majesty's subjects from any participation
Pacific, and at the western point was a small portion be- in them, he said it seemed to him that her MajettrtseGino:
longing to RUssia. We had originally planted 13 col°. vern.ment ande theHouubs.eeeotf Commonsmear had
He awougld, if the
idea in America; which had subsequently become Inds- housey e strg are t h whole
would allow him, state how the case stood. But
and up to' present time had increased to 35
pendent, before he did that he begged to remark, that he had
or 36 independent sstates, and was becoming a power very seldom, out of that house, heard Hudson's Bay
which unless England established a counterpoise, would mentioned, without hearing also the terms " sterile, bar-
he believed oversbado w, not only America, but the ren, unfit for colonisation." Now that was an erroneous
whole earth. In his opin 'log the most successful counter- impression. (Hear.) It might be true, and no doubt
poise would be a systemaCc plan of colonisation carried wog, with respect to some districts, but comparatively
on in the district to which he was about to call the at- only of a very small portion. But it was equelly true
tention of the house. But we' bad been extremely negli- that 500,000 square miles of the territory of the corn-
gent on the subject of colonisation in our American pus- pany presented as valuable a tract for colonisation as
sessions. Nova Scotia, New Brunewick, and Lower any other portion of her Majesty's dominions. Mean)
Canada were colonised when We teek possession, but That was the nature of the land eastward of the Rocky
since then we bad not created a single colony. In the Mountains—land abounding in rich prairies, and inter-
meantime the Americans had increased from 13 to 36 sected by great and navigable lakes and rivers. His hon.
states, and their population from threemillierns to thirty and learned friend did not allude to the water comma-
millions, while we had remained idle and done' nothing nication, which presented the greatest advantages
to createa counterpoise. The hon. and learned member for aiding in facilitating the trade and produce of the
'proceeded to state the circumstances under which the country. A great ship canal had been constructed, and
Hadson's Bay Company had acquired their present pri- to encourage those whose enterprise led them to engage
vileges. In the reign of Charles 11. certain persons ob- ,in the work, 170,000 acres of land had been sot aside,
tained from the Crown the exclusive prieilege of trading which were distributed in portions to them as they pro-
within a territory commencing at Hudson's Straits, al- greased. The sale of those lands by the parties proved
though at the very time the said territory belonged to most productive i • and he should not think it at all diffi
' -
• France, whose dominion at that time extended to the cult to set aside large tracts of land on each side of any
North Pole. In 1670 the charter was granted con- great railroad for distribution amongst those who might
firming them in all their privileges, "in all countries be engaged in the enterprise. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
'within the straits of Hudson's Bay, which were the day was not distant when the scheme which his hon.
not at the time possessed by any other subjects of hie'a and learned friend had shadowed out would be carried
Majesty or by the subjects of any other Christian state.' into effect. He would, in a very few words, call atten-
For many years the 11 ndson'is Bay Company did nothing, tion to the claims of the Hudson's Bay Company. It
but an act of Parliament was passed giving them fora would not be denied that no grant could be valid, if the
certain term the came rights as were contained in the grantor had not the right to grant it ; and he thought
charter, and when that act expired, all rights would ex- he could prove that in the reign of Charles 11. this
pire on the side of the company. When Canada came country bad no right to make the grant to the Hudson's
into the possession of the English the enterprising spirit Bay Company. He thought he could prove that the land
of the new settlers penetrated the preserves of the Hud- was at the time the property of another Christian people,
son's Bay Company in search of peltries, and the Hud- the subjects of another realm. The company's charter
son's Bay Company, under Lord Selkirk, actually waged expressly used the words—" All lands that might be in
war against the North-Western Company, when great possession of theßritish Crown at the time of the grant."
battles were fought, and much military glory achieved Now, supposing that to be valid, the treaty of Ryswick
on both sides. However, at last a very astute and clear- at once and for ever upset it. He wished to act as fairly
headed man interfered—he meant the right hon. mem- as he possibly could towards the Hudron's Bay Com-
ber for Coventry—who said to the belligerents, "You pany ; but it had been said that the property had been
are fighting useless battles, had you not better unite." inviolably secured by the grant in the hands of the corn-
-They did unite, and by uniting had cheated the public. pany. (Hear.) In 1598, a considerable number of years
lA. laugh.) Re did not wish to say a word against the before the charter was granted, Henry IV., of France,
Hudson's Bay Company, who probably had only managed made M. Le Roux Lieutenant-Governor of the terri-
their territory as other men, in similar circumstances,. tory ; and a French writer, so early as 1511, described
would have done, but he wished to call the attention of the country, indicating possession. The noble viscount,
. the house to the circumstances under which they held it, baying traced the history of the company and the char-
and the manner in- which these circumstances bore on ter with great minuteness of detail from the year 1670
the national interest. The Hudson's Bay Company was down to 1713, contended that the Crown had no right to
a far company, and wished to preserve their territory as grant the charter to the company, the territory indisput-
a home for the wild fur-bearing animals, and their inte- ably belonging to France, and not to England. When it
rest was to keep the footsteps of man away as long as became known in France that the British had for the
possible. In such a state of things, he appealed to the first time established themselves on the shores of Hud-
House of Commons to put an end to this system of seclu- son's Bay, orders were given to oust them at all
sion, and to open up this vast territory to enterprise and hazards. It was not until the year 1713 that England
colonisation. It might be urged that the rights of the became indisputably possessed of the territory, the Hud-
Hudson's Bay Company interfered. (Hear.) He denied son's Bay Company never, until that period, attempting
that they had any rights ; but even if they had, the to interfere with the French trader. The rights of the
house knew how to deal with them. The first resolution Hudson's Bay Company were derived from their mono-
he should move, therefore, was, "That the privileges of poly of trade, which was granted by the pretended char-
the Hudson's Bay Company, which are about to expire, ter, and from their licence of occupation for 21 years,
ought not to be meowed.. These privileges, he ought to which would expire next year. With the latter he bad
explain, were held, not under the charter, but under nothing to say. Supposing the charter to be valid, the
an act of Parliament which would expirenext year, and subject of the monopoly of trade Xas open to certain
the time was most favourable for the inauguration of a legal objections, and in support of this opinion he quoted
from the writings of Blackstone and other eminent au-
new system. The Secretary of State for the Colonies had
brought iu a bill to establish a British colony beyond the thorities. Hudson's Bay was subject to the same laws
Rocky Mountains, and it was our boast that we could
which governed other colonies of her Majesty's domi-
load goods in London and unload them at the western
nuns at that time. Monopoly was
considered illegal by
end of Lake Superior without transhipment. This had the English law, and it was manifest that Charles II in
been done by rendering the S. Lawrence navigable for granting an exclusive right to trade, granted that which"
great ships by the construction of a canal which avoided was not his. An exclusive licence to trade meant an ex-
tbe rapids. Thus they were further across the continent elusive licence to possess the lives, labour, and liberty of
of America than the Americans themselves. From all the people of that district. They had heard a great
Halifax to Lake Superior, thence to the Rocky Moms- deal about the colonising spirit of the Hudson's Bay
tains, and to the new colony which the right hon. gen- Company, but he believed it had been much exaggerated.
Oman (Sir E. B. Lytton) was about to form on the Re thanked the house for having so patiently heard him.
Western coast of America, and so by steam to Yarcou- and he desired to conciuje his s:-.t.,:nient in the inealor.-
ver's Island, a direct communication would be opened up able words of a Canadian legislator—" This was the
from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and from Europe across madness of monopoly. Surely the Hudson's Bay
the continent of America to India and China. That was Company did not expect, by their effete and stupid
a grand idea'' and the colonial minister who should carry charter, be it right or wrong, to shut up for ever the
it out would accomplish a greater thing than any of his route of the great West." In that sentiment he fully
predecessors. He would open up the means of carrying agreed. Nothing could he better expressed. The
English civilisation to the whole of that vast continent monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company could no
and to the eastern world. He said English civilisation, longer be continued, if the people of England were
because he wished the civilisation of England to be corn- only awakened to the importance of the subject. He
pared with that of America. The civilisation of England trusted that the eyes of the public would be opened
was higher than that of America—and why I Because to this great question, and that her Majesty's Ministers
the English people were free from the infernal blot of would not be backward in acting en the hints they
slavery. It was the duty of every man who wished well had got that evening.
to his race and desired the approbation of mankind to Mr. GLiDSTONE said he believed ho only expressed
forward this object. What, it might be asked, did he
wish 1 He wished the right hoc, gentleman would im- the unanimous feeling of the house, when be expressed
mediately take steps to ascertain what were the legal the great interest with which he had listened to the dis-
rights of the Hudson's Bay Company, in order that cussion. (hear.) The bon. and learned member for Shef-
when they were ascertained, they might be compensated field was a veteran in the cause. On this and on other
-r---for the company must no ;longer be allowed to stand subjects connected with British North America
in the way of the colonial government, and to be set up
as a barrier to the progress of civilisation. Having con- he had been the expositor of early truths,
peneated the company, then he would have Government most of which had attained to realisation, and
plant a colony, extending from the western shores of Lake he (Mr. Gladstone) was convinced that the sub.
Superior to the Rocky Mountains, to join with the colony stance of the history which the hon. and learned mem-
to be established on the western side of the continent on
her had given, and tile opinions he had expressed, were
the shores of the Pacific, and complete the chain of British
colonisationfrom Halifax to 'Vancouver's Island. He en• so sound and just that they must become the bases of
treated there might be no delay in the matter, for delay the policy of this country ; and, as a veteran in the
would create difficulties. Minnesota would send her cause, he was sure the hon. and learned gentleman must
hordes, and we should have to fight our battles over have witnessed with pleasure the accession to that cause
again—the battles which some years ago we had to wage that night of one who, though a novice in years, was yet
upon the eastern shores. Taking as much of the Hudson's in knowledge and accomplishments a master of the subject
Bay Company's land as was compatible for the purpose (Hear, hear.) If be said no more in reference to the
of colonisation, he would erect it at once into a colony, speech of the noble viscount it was only because that
He would bring in a bill to create a new law of colonii-a- noble lord had so completely mastered the subject that
tion, and at once form colonies in accordance with it. it would be p-esumptuous in him (31r. Gladstone) to be
And when he said this he contemplated not only North profuse in compliments to one who was so much his
America, but South Australia and South Africa. The superior. The hon, and learned gentleman divided his
same law of colonisation should be applicable to all. If argument iota three propositions. He urged that the
they carried that out they would make an English nation privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company, about to ex-
of Australia, an English nation of the south paint of the pfire, ought not to be renewed ; that the legal validity
African continent, and an English nation of North Ame-
rica. If this scheme was carried out, the English tongue, tohetihreeehxecrltuersiveeu rhigthttos
becleaitmed by the
determined company under
the Eoglish law, the English religion, and English lite-by process
of law ; and thatg so much of the territory hitherto held
rature would become predominant in the world, and he, the
compan
that would tend to the happiness of mankind. He said, .1 yas might be needed for the ur ose of
colonisation ought witho t delai:l;fttohe be re.sutmpe.tdpby the
Government of this country. without fear of contradiction, that the English nation
to him that the most importent
wassetrem secionsdeemlend
was the greatest nation of the earth, and the more the
Znglish name, English institutione, and English liters- point of fact, the first and third ro ositionss, to a
tura were spread over the various countries of the. world siderable extent, were not only connected withbutcodne. '
the more should we have contributed to the ha fuses of pendent upon it. The hon. and learnedgentleman had
at large, and perfected that work which in pro- pointed out that much of the conduct of the Hudson's
iidence of God was entrusted to U. He had heard it Bay Company with reference to the resumpt. cf the
intimated that his not
was to be met by the previous land in their territory, on which must depend tion
issue
question, but he could scarcely believe it. The previous of the investigation which he recommended, was li
question was a not very dignified way tifiable ; and no one could have listened to the speechnuoBf
inconvenient motion, the truth of which could not be
of getting rid of an
the noble viscount without perceiving that this was a very
denied. It was in effect saying we admit the truth of serious matter. (Hear, hear.) There was a large p
the proposition, but this is not the time for bringing it tion of the (Artie with regard to the character of
which
forward. But what was the reason why they ought not
we had been systematically kept in the dark
—(hear,hear)
now to proceed with this principle of colonisation, if that
by those whose interests alone were concerned in preser v-
principle were correct ? His first proposition was that the ins that ignorance. Take only one proof of that assertion.
privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company, about to ex- Let any one read the interesting work of Governor Simp.
pine, ought not to be renewed. Did they admit that ?If son—.his gi Voyage round the World"—written without
not, why not say so—why meet it with the previous ques- a y special reference to the Hudson's Bay Company, and
h
Lion ? He would not believe until he heard it that his gives a glowing description of the
right hon. friend would meet so indisputable a proposi- nehvill find that he
tiou by the previous question—much less could he be - capabilities, both agricultural and for purposes of colo-
lieve Maths, would oppose it. If they did not intend to' nisation, of much of the territory of the Hudson's Bay
renew-the privileges of the Huisort'a Bay Company it Colonial Secretary, moved for
Company. Well, last year the right hon. gentleman the
was only fair that the company should have warning. lf member for Taunton, then. .
inquire into the affairs of
his right hon. friend now refused to give that warning,g a committee of the house to
by accedieg to the second proposition, "That the legal involved the rights
the Hudson's Bay Company, and before that committee
validity of the exclusive rights claimed by the Hudson's questions were raised which seriously
of the company, and Governor Simpson was called as a
Bay Company under their charter ought at once to be
determined by process of law," the Hudson's Bay Cons- witness. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield then..
quoted to him the statements with regard to the capabi
pany would not perhaps expect that next spring the right ,htio3 of
change came
hon. gentleman would bring in a bill to renew their privi- the territory of that country ; but a h
over thhte spirit of his dream, and be reported that allwo
leges, but they would say he was a cowardly Minister
to settle in those inhospitable regions would .be
from whom something might be squeezed. Then as to racked with fogs and cold; and when one of the commit-
the last proposition " That so much of the territory tee with an inconvenient curiosite, ferreted out his book,
hitherto held b the Hudson's Bay Company as may be the' Governor, although not without considerable inge-
needed for theypurpose of colonisation ought without, unity, was placed in great difficulty when be attempted J
delay to be resumed by the Government of this country,' to reconcile the two accounts, when before the commit-
would they deny that ? And if not, why object to de- tee he wished to prove that it was nn use to try to pluck
elate it'd In the few words he bad e and lay bare- a company which had nothing to lose. It
ventured to offer h
bad rather shadowed forth the future of England than
referred to the past history of this was undoubted that a large portion of that territory was
ritEory. He had
brought no charge against the Hudson'st admirably adapted for colonisation, and it was equally
Company, certain that the Hudson's Bay Company was the enemy
nor had be intended to do so, his object beingay merely to
state the grounds upon which he founded the resolutions
hof colonisation. All its views, habits, purposes, and ar-
he now placed in the hands of the chair. Therangements were not directed to colanieation, but to ob.
learned gentleman concluded by moving the followingut'.and jects which required that colonisation should be kept off.
resolutions :—" 1. That the privileges of the Hudson's If it was necessary in Scotland, in order to create a deer
Bay Company, about to expire, ought not to be renewed, park, to clear the sheep from the region, so in the Hud-
2. That the legal validity of the exclusive rights claimed son's Bay territory, in order to the cerrying on of the
by the Hudson's Bay Company, under their charter,fur trade, itwasindispensable that all coloeisa.tion should
be kept off their unyielding region. His noble friend
ought at once to be determined by process of law,
3. That so much of the territory hitherto held by the had shown that the rights of the Hudson's Bay Com•
pany to their territory were at least doubtful. It was at
as may be needed for the pur-
l/prison's Bay Company
pose of colonisation ought without least doubtful whether, when their charter was granted,
by the Government of this country.'
lelay to be resumed the territory did not belong to France. The hon. and
Lord BURY, in seconding the resolutions, said this
learned member for Sheald had shown that in the
time of William 111, the charter depended on
only the interests and ex- ri
cemetees's which might have ceased i e
se in rern.
wail a question involving not
with the Indines, but the business of the
teesion of their colonial territory, but which involved, yehrs.te
trade
exclusive licence was given to the company
theirom pcahneyrtheard been to exclude all trade,
also, Imperial interests. It was now time that the Go- only
Hudson'son Bea
Tenement should do something in this matter, because
and yet wheny
His
iterandeibnlge
the Hudson's Bayl Indians was not only contemplated,was given
hot
ttrade e with the
had written
friend bad said, Company's Charter, as his learned
was about to expire. He hoped the also, and the trade in minerals especially.
in theirnetetrbreirtorhyeutehle
mode
Hof
IftN. o thoroughfare;" and
Government would not, in dealing with the question, 1 friend said that the Hudson's Bay Company
voincide with the late 'Government. (" Hear, hear," ' up
by. some stentorian voice, and much laughter.) He
! admission except
,s
meant not to say anything offensive.'
He had before him ; pany had taken care esp, &ally to exclude all admission
a letter written by Mr. Merrivale, who had been secre- ' which was on business. (Hear,) His noble friend was
tart' to the colones. The noble lord here read the letter, I sight when he said that there had been no change in that
lated renewal of the Hdson's
'forting to the contemP u respect, and that it was essentially a part of the under.

_noble and gallant °facer would appear in this evening's
Oazette.

—: ---
Sir W. FRASER asked the First Commissioner of
Works whether he would consider some plan for remov-
ing the wall between Burlington House and Piccadilly;
and for giving the public the advantage of the ground
in the front and rear of that building?
Lord J. MANNERS was unable then to give a posi-
tive answer to the bon. and learned gentleman's ques-
tion.

would be •

taking of the company that all human beings, neon•
nected with themselves, should be excluded from their
territory. This was a most interesting question, and ;
though it touched a country much of which was inhos- ;
pitab
it. Althoughleanduninhab law anditable,t romanceherewas m
were not ,: uchofromaanic
about sly
connected, yet when you turned from the people of those
regions and the lives they led to the law under which
they were placed, there never could be a more serious or
a more interesting question. There was one other point
in connection with the charter of the company to which
he wished to allude. At present the Hudson's Bay Com-
pany were in possession, by virtue of their charter, of a
territory extending from the sources of the Saskatchewan
river, a thonsand miles, to the foot of the Rocky Moun-
tains. If you admitted the right they claimed by virtue
of their charter and their exclusive right of trading, it
was still doubtful, looking to the language of the char.
ter, whether it was intended to give the Hudson's Bay
Company that vast tract of territory, and whether the
land granted to them was not that on the bay, and on
the lakes and rivers in the immediate neighbourhood of
the bay. The Hudson's Bay Company did not at first
possess themselves of this tract of land extending to the
Rocky Mountaine, but for 100 years they departed a
very little from the bay; and they only spread themselves
over that vast territory when they formed their fortunate
coalition with the right hon. gentleman the member for
Coventry. (Hear.) It would appear that serious ques-
tions in point of law had been raised against the privi-
leges and rights exercised by the Hudson's Bay Corn-
Ipony, and the opinions of legal authorities had been
taken —he meant the opinions of counsel, not any judi-
cial decision—a-c ong others those of Lord Brougham,
Mr, Sergeant Spankie, and Sir Arthur Pigott, which
bone out the opinions which had been expressed in that
debate. It was said that there was some hardship in
raising this question at the present time ; that the com-
pany had been in possession of these rights for nearly two
centuries, and though the grant to them might have been
originally wrong, yet it had gradually inured and hard-
ened in'.o right by the lapse of time. That was not a
view which the House of Commons had as yet consented
to recognise, for in 1849 the House of Commons voted
an address to the Crown praying that legal steps might
be taken to test the velidity of the rights of the com-
pany. He (Mr. Gladstone) moved the address in the
hoase, and he thought that the phrase " legal steps"
meant a legal process in an adequate court of law, ac-
cording to the good old constitutional custom which had
existed for 200 years, when companies were found in
possession of rights which were hostile to the public in-
terests, that those rights were tried in the courts of law,
in which the companies were quite oompetent to defend
themselves. But the noble earl the Secretary for the Colo-
nies understood the address in a different sense, and instead
of ceusingjudicial process to be adopted, contented himself
with obtaining from the company a statement of their
claims—ex parte of course—and on that ex parte state-
ment he 'obtained the opinion of the law officers of the
Crown, who stated that in the case laid before them they
saw no reason to question the rights of the company ;
and then it was intimated to a young man who was
struggling to educatehimself in theUnivereity of Glasgow
that it was at his option, as a private individual, to try
the question of the rights of the company. (Hear, hear.)
It should, perhaps, be stated that the company never
showed any disinclination to submit their claims tojadi-
cial decision in a court of law. He confessed it appeared
to him that there was a great deal of error iu the notion
that the posses.done of the company were consecrated by
time. It was a mistake to suppose that the flourishing
monopoly which we now saw was the product of the
charter of Charles IL For 150 years after that charter
was granted this body dragged on a feeble and spiritless
existence. The present flourishing monopoly was not the
child of the charter of Charles 11., but it was the child of
one who understood his business, the right lion. gentle-
man the member for Coventry—(hear, hear)—whose ab-
sence on this occasion they must all regret, for he should
have been present to have received the honours he had
gained. (Hear, hear.) But in admitting that you at once
stripped the company of its character fir antiquity, and
' gave it a character somewhat of modernism. The pos-
sessions of the company as they now stood were recent
possessions. No one could hold that there was any
hardship in taking steps to test the right of the company,
although care should be taken with regard to the mode
in which you proceeded. If the company had rights, as
the hon. and learned member for Sheffield had said,
they would not be deprived of them, except on compen-
sation awarded to them. It might also appear that
although the company had no great rights in point of
law, in pciat of equity there were grounds for a liberal
treatment of their claims, and there might be a neces-
sity for some intermediate mode of dealing with this
question ; nor must it be supposed that t.sose who
wished for a legal investigation of this question wished
t 3 deal hardly with those who were connected with the
company, and who may have invested their property in
its undertakings, and who ought to be fairly dealt with.
But it was clear that the British public had rights in this
matter. He did not now say that if we were to colonise
this territory our colonisation was to proceed direct from
this country, or whether we should recognise Canada as
the medium for carrying out that object, That was an
important question, and one which he would leave to the
consideration of the responsible Ministers of the Crown.
But without inquiring whether Canada or this country
was to under take the duty of founding this new colony,
yet he mie'it that thi; csueni had tights iu tee
matter, and that the nece -say of opening this field of
enterprise imposed duties upon us at home. However
leniently we might be inclined to deal witty the com•
pany, we must not allow this enormous obstruction on
the road to a great part of the earth, possessed of such
vast capabilitieo, to remain until we had ascertained that
strict law stood in the way of its removal. (Hear.)
He came now to the last point which he wished to con-
sider, and that wan, what course was to be token on the
present occasion. He was sure the lion. and learned
gentleman and the noble viscount would be sati,fied with
the effect of their speeches in the house, and that they
would feel that a great deal had been done towards esta-
blishing their case. (Hear, hears) He (air. Gladstone)
would not be suspected of want of stoupatby with the
mover and seconder of this motion, if he suggested that
they would do well to leave the question in the hands of
the Government. They had heard the speeches of the
mover and seconder of the motion, and they would re-
ceive, from what had passed that night, great assistance
towards determining the course they should take. If the
house was to go to a division now, it would tend to
create a f sloe impression out of doors, and therefore he
should be gratified if the hon. and learned gentleman,
having listened to the statement of t'ee Minister of the
Crown on the subject—unless that statement was en-
tirely hostile to his views—would leave it in the hands
of the Government to deal with this important question.
(Cheers.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that, when in office, he
gave this question a great deal of consideration, and had
moved for a committee on the subject. The right hon.
gentleman who had just spoken seemed to think that
the validity of the charter woo the main question to be
considered, but that was not the opinion of the members
of that committee, or even of the right hon. gentleman
himself at the time. On the contrary, he thought he
might say that, almost without exception, it was consi-
dered expedient to maintain the monopoly of the Hud-
son's Bay Company. He knew that anything like a
monopoly of trade was very unpopular, bat his duty was
not to consider what was unpopular or popular, but what
was right., It was necessary that those immense terri-
tories should be under the government of some body or
other in order to prevent collisions between the native
Indians and the adventurers who might otherwise flock
to them. The incursion of white trappers and hunters
upon a large scale would not only exterminate the wild
animals by which the Indian trappers and hunters lived,
but the Indians themselves in the course of a very fe w
years, as had been the case in corresponding territories
in the United States. (Hear.) In regard to the ques-
tion of the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, he
thought it would be a matter of great public convenience
if the rights of the company under that charter could be
definitively ascertained. For his part he would be glad
to eee the whole of the charter done away with, and the
whole of that part of the territory not under cultivation,
but which was capable of it, colonised. More than 100
years ago the Government of that time were anxious to
ascertain whether the charter was valid or not. They
JahreferredLord
ay theeod3ni,atqh,nuzisestfishteail question to the law officers of the Crown,
charter,dt
considering
dSwei
err
ndFao. Ryderhnoowt ltoh expressed
the t
advisable
companyt h e ir
untilfor ear Nn
1a j 1
e est
authoritativey' s G o v r nmjeundtgtino kemataise
danelyiveexrperdesosnordtheer
ease "

Mr. ROEBUCK—Hear, hear,
Mr. LABOUCUERE said he was anxioug, when in
office, to have the point settled by a court of justice, and
for this purpose be applied to Sir Richard 13athe1I and
another eminent lawyer, and they told him in conversa-
tion that they would not recommend proceeding by qno
warrant') against a company of this description. They
did not think it right to raise at this period of time the
question of the general va'idity of the charter, except so
far as it related to the exclusion from the territory of
persons acting in violation of the regulations. After
hiving consulted English and colonial lawyers, his (Hr.
Labouchere's) opinion was that, so far as territorial
rights were concerned, the charter was good, but that
with respect to the territory for which they held a
licence the Crown might interfere. And be it observed
that all the land they held under a licence was far better
in soil and climate and more adapted for colonisation,
and the licence was never given except with the distinct
reservation on the part of the Crown to establish colo-
nies to any extent. The bill now before the house with
territory
tooorfyoffo
r this.th 0 Ib
et
nweafist an
f
imperialrespect t or i
,ht Newto Caledonia itoh
this vamankind, and not to shut out any part of it, unless on
grounds of poicy, from persons disposed to c;donise it.
nia was
He believed that the 11nd-on's My Company had acted

humanely towards the natives. TLey had improved the
condition of the Indian tribe?, given them a value in
their own eyes, and made them better and tvelul men.
would say, take away from tho Iludscn's Biy Corn-
ploy any part of the territory that you can colonise,
but do nut throw these vast territories open to all
comers.

§.llCli-a—co-u-r;e-w-ould devalva on ber Ma

.klty's Government a great amount of responsi-
bility. Upcn the whole, he thought the Hudson's
Bay Company had answered its purposes, and that,
with the restrictions he had suggested, it was
entitled to a renewal of the charter. He could not

advke the house to cut prematurely the knotty points
suggested by the hon. and learned gentleman's resnlu•
Cons. With regard to the first resolution, he (tr. La-
bouchere) suggested that the privileges granted to the
Hudson's Bay Company should be continued. As to
the second resolution, the law officers of the Crown had
expressed an opinion different from that of the hon.
and learned gentleman ; and as to the third resolution,
that was a truism. Upon the whole, he thought it