The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-31 00:00:00

!';'' THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING; JULY 31, 1866.

which contained the gravest charges in reference to the
mutiny were dated `..the 14th and 18th of May, and must
have been in the hands of the Secretary for India before he
made his speech o a the 10th of August.
Sir C. WOOD said the fact was that they were not in his
possession at that time.

Sir J. FERGUSSON admitted that if the right hon.
gentleman was not in possession of those letters they might
have afforded materials for a change of opinion ; but they
were insufficient to justify the sweeping change which
had been made. The blue-books were full of the state-
ments of the men in reference to the grievance of which
they complained, and they all stated the same thing, viz.,
that they did not wish to stand out against any law, but
that they denied there was any law which required them
to transfer themselves to the Queen's army. Out of the
whole 30,000 only 10,000 had accepted their discharge, and
2,500 of those had since been re-enlisted. The honourable
baronet proceeded to quote letters from Sir J. Lawrence,
Sir H. B. Frere, and Sir J. Outram, upon the importance
of maintaining a local European army in India, and
said the strong objection he had to proceeding further with
the present bill was the total absence of any plan by which
the house could learn what it was the Government really
contemplated. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. T. BARING seconded the motion.
The SPEAKzu at once put the question.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE rose to address the house afterit
had been put, and was informed that ho was too late.

The house then divided—
For the amendment 5O
Against it
Majority
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE then moved the adjournment of
the house. (Oh! oh !) His object was to make a persona'
explanation with respect to an observation which had been
attributed to him, and which he found had given pain. That
observation was to the effect that he had been on board ship
with 22 officers, on their way to India, 20 of whom could
not write their own names. He (the hon. member) never
questioned a newspaper report ; for he thought they were
very much indebted to the reporters, not only for the accu-
racy with which they gave their speeches to the world, but
for the material improvements which they so often intro-
duced. (Loud cheers.) What, however, he wished to state
was that of the 22 officers, 20 could hardly write their
names ; and to that statement he adhered, for it was literally
true. The fact was that in times gone by large sums of
money were paid for substitutes when regiments were or-
dered for India; and the men who thus went out were ge-
nerally very illiterate. The army was now in a very dif-
ferent position; but still the officer who went out to India
after he had become accustomed to society in this country,
was not the man that identified himself with the natives.
(Hear, hear.) Ho (the hon. gentleman) could assure the
house that he had most unwillingly taken part in the op-
position which had been offered to the bill ; but he had
done so because he conscientiously believed it to be a
most dangerous, improper, and unconstitutional mea-
sure to attempt to force such a change upon the house
in its present half-informed condition, and at such
an unusually late period of the session. (Hear, hear.)
Col. KNOX seconded the motion for the adjournment.
Sir E. COLF,BROOKE had intended to address the
house before the division, but after the able speech of the
hon. member for Ayrshire, to which her Majesty's Govern-
ment had not ventured a reply, he did not feel it necessary
to do so. He was perfectly well contented with the progress
they had made as evidenced by the division that had just
taken place—(cheers)—and he trusted that hon. members
who had joined in the opposition would be equally ready at
the next stage. By pursuing that course—by urging their
opinions firmly and respectfully upon this house, they
would leave her Majesty's Government little to boast of.
Henceforward they would not be able to appeal to the enor-
mous majority by which they carried the second reading.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY spoke to express his opinion,
and not for the purpose of delay. He regarded the bill as one
calculated to unsettle much, and to settle nothing. Never
had the house been taken more by surprise. Ho could not
conceive why the Secretary of State had not taken counsel
with his council before introducing a measure of so much
importance. It had been said that the European army in In-
dia did not exist, but reckoning the men on their passage it
was not less than 17,000 strong. He could not help think-
ing that there still existed a great deal of the old jealousy
which there used to be of the late company, but the question
was wholly different. It was not as if the point in dispute
were whether there should or should not be a royal army
in India. Under any circumstances the army must be the
army of the Queen ; for it could be nothing else. (Cheers.)
The sole question was whether it was not better to localise
a certain portion of that royal army ? Viewed as a matter
of reasoning, it seemed to him that the argument was ten to
one in favour of the affirmative issue. It was proposed to
double the European army of England by a stroke of the
pen, and it appeared to him to be a very serious constitu-
tional question, what might be the effect of bringing up so
large a portion of our armed force in a despotic country,
beyond the direct influence of the House of Commons. Al-
ready the question who was supreme in the army was in
equilibrio. At the present moment it was balancing itself,
like a dancer on a tight rope with a pole, between the Com-
mander-in-Chief and the Secretary at War. So far as he
could see, the power seemed to be in one, and the responsi-
bility in the other. For instance, in the years 1856-8, 686
commissions were gi ren away by the Commander-in-Chief.
Those commissions would represent a money value of
£3Bo,ooo—an amount of patronage altogether unexampled.
A list of all appointments was no doubt handed to the Sec-
retary of State, but there could be no doubt that the power
of making them resided altogether in the Commander-in-
Chief ; and be would ask the house if it was prepared to
double that enormous patronage ? (Hear, hear.) All the
faults of the local army of India might be traced to the sys-
tem. If the authority of the colonels was deficient, it was
only through their having been thwarted by the Comman-
der-in-Chief. There could be no doubt that all the evils
which existed in connection with the local force could be
easily corrected, and the 25 regiments would then become as
efficient as any other in her Majesty's service. He could not
conceive what possible interest Ministers could have in the
bill. The right hon. gentleman was doing all this upon his
own authority. He trusted that these discussions would
have no ill effect upon Indian. affairs; but it was remark•
able that the dictum of the noble lord upon a former occa-
sion had been acted upon by the soldiers, and a mutiny had
took place in consequence. Indian history abundantly
proved that troops of the line had been disarmed by native
soldiers. These, however, were unpleasant moments in
military history ; and the house was much too wise to form
a system upon such isolated cases. There was an absolute
necessity, in his opinion, of protecting the authority of the
Governor-General in India. It was with the deepest pain
that he (Sir H. Willoughby) had read some portions of the
correspondence which the right hon. gentleman had placed
upon the table of the house. Nothing was more dangerous
than the expressions in some of the letters which had been
addr eased to the Commander-in-Chief, without consulting
the Governor-General. On May 11, 1859, Gen. Lord Clyde
wrote to the Commander-in-Chief a despatch, containing
the passage, "I admit I have not much influence ; " and
again he said, " The whole of the Indian officers are dis-
contented." Did the house think that India was to be go-
verned in that way ? The Commander-in-Chief should not
be empowered to make appointments in India without con-
sulting the Governor-General. All despatches also should
pass through the hands of the Governor-General, as being
the responsible Minister of the Crown. He asked would it
be possible for any Governor-General to govern India if the
Commander-in-Chief of the day could make disparaging
comments upon large bodies of men without his knowledge?
Let them take care to place the government upon a right basis.
Let them take care there is not a distrust of able men.
He (Sir H. Willoughby) would not have produced that
despatch. But further, he would ask how it could be sup-
posed that the Indian revenue could support an army of
100,000 men ? They had raised the taxation in four years
' to £37,000,000. The military expenditurehad beenraised suc-
cessively from £8,000,000 to £11,000,000, then £14,000,000
to £20,000,000. How could India afford to pay .Z 20,000,000 for
an army ? The expense of the transport of troops was an
additional item to this outlay. Mr. Wilson had further been
much struck with the attention paid by local officers to the
affairs of India, as contrasted with that of the Queen's
officers. It was also an established fact that localised regi-
ments stood the action of the sin better than European
troops. He was not arguing this as a party question. (Hear,
hear.) But this he must say that no one had yet ventured
to say how two armies were to be amalgamated ; one of
which existed by a system of purchase, the other with a
system of promotion by seniority, with a vast mass of pro-
vident funds, amounting to £1,000,000. He warned the
house that they would soon find that the question of the
finances of India was a question of the finances of the
empire. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I rise to speak on the
question which is before the house. The hon. member for

Portsmouth has moved the adjournment of the house; the
hon. baronet who has just sat down has not said a word
about the adjournment, but he has spoken on the general
question, whilst he has endeavoured to preclude us from
discussing it at all. My hon. friend behind nae (the
member for Lanark, Sir T. Colebroke) has said that he will
leave it to the country to judge between the proceedings of
the Government and the proceedings of those who are en-
deavouring to oppose this discussion. The hon. member for
Portsmouth has boldly declared that those proceedings of
delay are intended for no other purpose than to defeat the
bill. Now that strikes at the root of our constitutional
institutions. If there be one principle more than another
on which our constitutional institutions are founded, it is
this, that, after full. discussion, and after full opportunity
has been given for the statement of opinions, the decision of
the majority ought to be considered as binding on the mino-
rity. If the decision of the majority is not to be considered
binding on the rest, there is an end to our constitutional in •
stitutions. In countries where such institutions are new,
minorities often have recourse to violence. We are now wit-
nessing a proceeding similarin principle—(hear, hear).—
because the minority, conscious as they must be that their
arguments cannot prevail over the majority, are resorting
to every device which the forms of the house enable them
to take advantage of for the purpose of stopping and defeat-
inogusbe to ydeoloany,etuht to atwbhyie4g.
hrtuhraeyenatr.e not able
re4llY a proceed-
able to induce the
h
ing the object of wtialt has been boldly and frankly avowed
by the hon. member forPortsraouth, and which may be left

for the country to decide upon. But I venture to say that
it is impossible for the House of Commons to discharge its
constitutional functions if this system is to be persevered in
on every occasion in which a minority thinks proper. All
I can say is, that we will not submit to be coerced in this
manner so long as health and strength remain to us—(chears)
—by what I must call a factious—(hear, hear)—proceeding
on the part of a minority, I trust the hon. member for
Portsmouth will not put us to a trial of this sort, but that
he will withdraw his motion in order that the house may
enter into a discussion of the question before it in the regu-
lar course. According to the strict rules of the house hon.
members ought to speak to the question. The question be-
fore the house is whether the house shall adjourn, and I
certainly think that those who speak should give reasons
for the adjournment. But I trust the hon. member for
Portsmouth, who always acts with fairness and generosity
in debate, and who always shows great ability and know-
ledge of the subjects on which he wishes to bring his genius
to bear, will feel that it is more conducive to the dignity of
the house, and more consistent with the course of Parlia-
mentary proceedings to let us go into committee on the
bill. (Cheers.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said that he had no intention
of taking any unconstitutional course. But the delay in fur-
nishing papers, and the way in which the question was
brought before the house, was such as to render hon. mem-
bers unable to discuss the question in any other way. He
begged to withdraw the question of the adjournment.
The SPEAKER said he might take the liberty of saying,
on the question of the adjournment, that the hon. member
for Portsmouth would have agreed to the withdrawal of the
motion at once, had he been aware that there stood imme-
diately afterwards a motion which he was then about to put
to the house, upon which he might have spoken.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said it was from misappre-
hension of the forms of the house that he had taken the
course he had adopted.
Mr. MALINS opposed the bill, and entered into a care-
ful analyses of sections 19, 23, and 25 of the Indian Govern-
ment Act,' for the purpose of showing that it was the inten-
tion of the Legislature that the government of India should
be by the Secretary of State in Council. By the course pur-
sued Sir C. Wood had violated the act, and he hoped that
the house would not sanction a precedent fraught with the
the most dangerous consequences.

- -
Col. SYKES defended the officers of the European In.
dian army from the charge of incompetency, and quoted a
long list of illustrious names to show that in ability and
soldierlike qualities they were not inferior to officers of the
line.

Mr. VANSITTAItT supported the bill.
Col. DUNNE did not object to the bill, but wished for
some explanations as to the amalgamation of the armies in
India and at home.

Sir C. WOOD said he was glad to hear the opinions of
the hon. and gallant colonel. He contended that he could
not ask the Council to discuss the details of a measure to
which they were opposed; but when it had received the
sanction of Parliament no doubt they would give it their
best attention.
Colonel HERBERT supported the measure, on the
ground that it would not affect the patronage of more
than nine regiments, the patronage of the whole of the local
army remaining, as now, in the hands of the Governor-
General.
After some observations from Mr. PARKER and Mr.
TORRENS, the house went into committee on the bill.
On clause 1,
Mr. HENLEY objected to the proviso. The right hon.
gentleman said he was not for a moment disposed to impute
that her Majesty's Government were disposed, in bringing
in the bill, to break faith with the officers and men of the
local European army in India; but undoubtedly the men
had been harshly and unjustly treated, and he therefore
begged to move that a proviso be added to clause 1, " That
the provision made for sons of persons who have served in
India, and the advantages as to pay, pensions, allowances,
privileges, promotion, and otherwise secured to the military
forces of the East India Company, by the act of the 21st
and 22d years of the Queen, shall be maintained respec-
tively in any plan for the reorganisation of the Indian
army, anything in this act contained notwithstanding."
Sir C. WOOD was glad to hear the right hon. gentleman
give credit to her Majesty's Government for not having any
intention of breaking faith with the officers and men of the
European local army in India ; and as a guarantee that
they had not, he begged to say that he accepted with cor-
diality the proviso proposed by his right hon. friend.
The clause, as amended, was then agreed to, and the
house resumed.
Sir C. WOOD stated that the bill would be resumed to-
morrow, and the third reading on Monday.
THE SENIOR MEMBER OF COUNCIL (INDIA)
BILL.
This bill was read a•third time and passed.
SUPERANNUATION ACT (1859) INDIA BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
ADMIRALTY JURISDICTION (INDIA) BILL.
This bill was also read a third time and passed.
EAST INDIA STOCK, &c., TRANSFER BILL.
On the motion of Sir C. WOOD, the house resolved it-
self into committee, and he moved a resolution by which
certain duties now performed by the establishment of the
Directors of the East India Company are in future trans-
ferred to and are to be discharged by the Bank of England.
Mr. VANSITTART asked what was expected to be the
saving effected by this transfer. He understood the num
ber of directors was to be reduced from twelve to six ; would
the right hon. gentleman state what the saving would be ?
Sir C. WOOD said the transfer would not in any way
affect the directors, it merely transferred duties in respect
of the payment of the dividends from the East India direc-
tors to the Bank of England.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the house re.
awned.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION, &e., BILL.
The house then proceeded to the consideration of the
amendments of this bill.
Mr. D. GRIFFITH moved a clause, in pursuance of
which clerical members of the commission should not vote
on questions relative to the increase of the emoluments or
revenues of the bishops or capitular bodies.
The clause was opposed by Sir G. C. LEWIS, and upon
a division was negatived by a majority of 202 to 28.
Mr. AYRTON then moved an amendment, to the effect
that the surplus funds of ecclesiastical property in the me-
tropolis should be devoted to the removal of religious desti-
tution in the metropolis.
Mr. ROEBUCK moved the adjournment of the debate,
owing to the lateness of the hour (12.40).
Sir G. C. LEWIS opposed the motion on the ground
that many hon. gentlemen would not consider it a late
hour, and the subject had been fully discussed.
After a few words from Mr. D. GRIFFITH, the house
divided upon the clause moved by Mr. AYRTON, which was
lost by a majority of 62, there being 51 for, and 116
against.
The bill was then ordered to be read a third time.
POOR RELIEF, &c. (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time.
FORTIFICATIONS AND WORKS.
_ _

On the order of the day for the house going into oom-
raittee on this bill,
Lord PALMERSTON said that this bill should be
taken the first thing on Thursday.
AUGMENTATION OF BENEFICES (IRELAND)

BILL.
This bill was read a third time.
lONIAN ISLANDS MARRIAGES BILL.

This bill was read a third time.
The Lords' amendment to the Burial Grounds (Ireland)
(1856) Amendment Bill, and Criminal Lunatic Asylum
Bill were considered and agreed to.
SALE OF GAS AMENDMENT BILL.

The bill was read a second time.
The house adjourned at a quarter past two o'clock.

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