The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY l6, 1858,

had expressed himself so clearly on the question under
discussion, that he felt himself relieved from the neces-
sity of saying much upon it. The great object which he
conceived would be gained by the bill was the removal
of the principle of the double Government, which had
hitherto acted so prejudicially in eur Indian affairs ;
but admitting that to be its object, he was not satisfied
that it was attained. Ile considered that the council
would still act as a shield against responsibility, divert-
ing it from the Minister, and assisting him in nothing.
It was, in fact, a revival of the Court of Directors, under
another name, and in a different form. He complained
of the number of the council being fifteen, and said that
they were creating so marry sinecure places. There were
other parts of the bill to which he entertained great ob-
jection, but he would refer to them in detail, in com
mittee. He contended that they ought not to disturb
the present system of examination for the artillery in
India. If this bill became law in its present shape, not
many years would pass before many of its provisions
would have to be altered.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE said there was nothing
in the bill to get rid of the extravagance as regarded the
finances of India, of which they had so frequently com-
plained. They had squeezed 20 millions out of the people
of India, and they must either give up that country or
maintain it by disbursements from the national treasury.
Tho Earl of DERBY said that as he proposed to go
into committee on the bill to-morrow, he would refrain
from saying anything in reply to the observations that
had been made on the measure until that occasion.
The bill was read a second time, and was ordered to
be committed to-morrow.
The following bills were read a third time and passed
—Universities and College Estates Bill ; Confirmation
of Executors, Ike., Bill ; Stanhope and Wolsingbam
Rectories Bill ; Ecclesiastical Corporation Leasing Bill;
Encumbered Estates (West Indies) Amendment Bill.
The following bills were read a second time—Sale and
Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill ; Navigation Advances
(Ireland) Bill ; Prescriptions (Ireland) Bill.
The Joint Stock Banking Companies Bill passed
through committee.
The house adjourned at eight o'clock

ROUSE OF COMMONS—( ESTERDAY.)
ARMY SUBALTERNS. •
Col. FREESTUN asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer if ho would be pleased to grant him a day to
bring on his motion respecting the subalterns of the
army, which he had been for the lost four months en-
deavouring to effect ?
The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER could
not then give a decided answer, but would remember
the question.

to the Clerk of Petty Sessions Bill, he had consulted the
highest authority, asd found that if he moved the preli-
minary resolution in committee of the whole house, and
supposing that resolution was carried, they recommitted
the bill and introduced a clause founded on that resolu-

ion, it would be sufficient, and he would, therefore, now

give notice to that effect.
THE PURIFICATION OF THE THAMES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I took

,be liberty of moving tbat the orders of the day be post•

poned in order that I might bring under the attention
of the house a bill, the object of which is to purify the

river Thames. The condition of the waters of that river

has fallen upon the inhabitants of this metropolis as an
unexpected calamity ; but I believe there has always
been a minority in the community which has expected
the catastrophe that has recently occurred ; and I find
that several years back, when this house, in pursuit of

health, determined that the sewage of the metropolis
should be diverted to the waters of the Thames, there

were some persons of great authority on such matters

who foresaw the consequences of that measure. All that
they then predicted has been more than fulfilled. That

noble river, which was long the pride and joy of English•
men, which has hitherto been associated with the noblest
feats of our commerce and the most beautiful passages
of our poetry, has really become a Stygian pool, reeking
with inevitable and intolerable horrors. The public

health is at stake ; almo9t all living things that exited

in the waters of the Thames have disappeared or been

destroyed ; a very natural fear has arisen that living
beings upon its banks may share the same fate ; there
is a pervading apprehension of pestilence in this great
city ; and I am cure I am only taking a step that will
have been anticipated when I ask for leave to introduce
a bill which will attempt—and I trust the attempt will
be successful—to terminate a state of affairs so unsatis-
factory and so dangerous. (Hear, hear.) The question
arises,--e" If this be your object, what is the quarter
from which a remedy is to be provided ! Where are we to
find the means, and where the machinery, for attaining
these remedial results V' In fact, the question at once
arises, which has been asked by everybody in this city
during the last few weeks—" Is this a local or a national
business ?" (Hear, hear.) Now, at the first glance
it certainly does appear that the inhabitants of a city
should be responsible for the purity of the river that
washes its walls ; but then it is urged, and no doubt
with considerable force, that the position of the city
of London is of a very peculiar character. It is
not merely a city in her Majesty's dominions, but it
is the metropolis of her Majesty's dominions. It is
a city of paramount importance. It is said that here
the Court is present ; here the Parliament holds its sit-
tings ; here are the halls of justice ; here is the centre of
administration ; and upon these grounds it is alleged that
in a city which inclndes so many national interests, and
where so many national institutions exist, the incon-
veniencies which are experienced should be remedied at
the national expense. It is alleged, however, on the
other hand, that the very circumstances which are ad-
duced to substantiate a claim on behalf of this afflicted
metropolis to assistance from the national resources
tend—when impartially considered—to a directly oppo-
site conclusion ; because it is said with equal plausibility
that the very facts that the Sovereign, the Legislature,
the courts of justice, and the centre of administration
are to be found in this city, show that they have greatly
contributed to the importance and prosperity of the nee-
tropolis, and that if not the principal, they are, at least,
among the chief causes of the splendour and power of
the city of London, Under these circumstances, one is
naturally inclined to ask—Are we, or are we not, to
trust to that municipal principle which is so often eulo-
gized in this house, and of which we are all so proud, as
one of the principal characteristics of our constitution ?
What is the value of this municipal principle if it is
limited in its application ? Ought it to be so limited ?
If it is the duty of a population of 300,000 to cleanse
their streets and clear their river, why should not such a
duty be equally imperative upon a population which
may be counted by millions? (Hear, hear.) What be-
comes of that admirable self-government, that system of
local administration of which we are all so proud, to
which we appeal so frequently in our legislation, and
in the influence and efficiency of which we have so much
confidence, if when a great trial like the present arrives
we abandon as defective the system of local administrm
tion, and we admit the inefficiency of the municipal prin.
&pie ; giving up all hope of relief from such sources, and
declaring that this is a case which must be taken up by
the nation, and which must be met by the aggregate
resources of the people of this country. Her
Majesty's Government having considered this
question without prejudice, and with the utmost anxiety
to submit to the house a proposition which would be
adequate to the occasion, are of opinion that this is an
instance which must be met by local resources. (Cheers.)
The object is to remedy or diminish a local inconvenience,
and in their opinion means for applying a competent
remedy should be provided from local resources. I need
scat cely remind the house that, with the exception of a
very small portion of the metropolis, which has been
under the control of an ancient and celebrated airport
Lion, the municipal administration of this great city cf
London—a city, cot only the most extensive of modern
times, but greater than any ancient cities of which we
have authentic records—is still really in its infancy. In
the disagreeable and difficult position in which the in-
habitants of the metropolis have found themselves during
the last six or eight weeks, they have naturally con-
trasted the enormous re' ent of the evils with which they
had to contend with the feebleness of the municipal
machinery by which only a remedy could be provided.
We have looked into that question. We have exetnined
the conduct of that Metropolitan Board of Works which,
not much more than two years ago, was instituted by
Parliament to constitute the powerful and efficient
municipality of this great city. That body has, how
ever, beyond all question, not hitherto proved itself to be
very effective in carrying out those works which come
within its control. (Hear, hear.) It must at the same
time be borne in mind that the period of its existence
has as yet been brief, and that although the Legislators
has committed to its hands the performance of import-
ant duties, we have not combined with those duties the
power adequate to their due discharge. (Hear, hear.)
I cannot but feel that I have no se given a fair and
impartial summary of the position in which the
Metropolitan Board of Works has been placed by
Parliament. (Hear, bear.) Well, the question then
arises, can we invest that bodi—Which cccupies the in-
fluential position of the municipality of this metropolis,
and which i-, as a consequence, the body to which
we ought to appeal in 'those instances in which
we seek that every grievance connected with the
metropolis should be remedied—with powers adequate
to the accomplishment of that great work which we are
all so anxious to promote ? You will, general'y spcetk-
ing, find the corporation of a great city like London—
the capital of an ancient kingdom—in possession of con-
siderable estates, and when under those circumstances a
large and unexpected demand upon its resources and
energies arises, it has the means of raising the funds
necessary for the performance of the work which it may
be called upon to execute. We haie, however, in the
present instance to deal with a corporation which has
great dtmies to discharge, and which nominally is in-
tru tea with great powzrs for the put pose, but which
reality is almost completely denuded of all mean? of
raising a considerable sum of money. In theory, it is
true, its members have the power to avail themselves cf
large resources. They possess the power of rating, and
of rating, I believe, to an unlimited extent, the inhabh-
tants of those districts the affairs of which they admihee-
ter. The house must, however, on reflection perceive
that nothing is more illusory than a rate, and nothing
more unsatisfactory, no matter how liberal the language
used by the Legislature may be, than a rating power
whenever a large amount is sought to be obtained.
(Hear, hear.) A corporation being
called upon to invest
capital to a considerable extent in public works very na-
turally does not anticipate that it is to be furnished with
that capital out of its income. If, indeed, i.t should
happen to be in possession of large estates it might raise
the necessary sum cf money at a moderate rate of in-
terest ; but in dealing with a simple power of rating you
must bear in mind tbat the rate exists only for a singli
year, and that therefore it constitutes, practicallyspeak-
ing, a security upon which no per: on would be disposed
to make any considerable advances. (Hear.) When,
therefore, a rate is the only security which you have to
offer you are in this position, that you can procure only
a small sum of money, and that too at a high rate
of interest—a result which would by no means meet the
exigencies of the case with which we have this evening
to deal. (Hear, hear.) Now, the Metropolitan Board
of Works have, I am bound to say, given to the ques-
tion of the purification of the Thames and thernam drain-
age of the metropolis very careful consideration. They
have employed in the investigation of the subject a long
period of time. They have availed themselves of the
knowledge, the science, and the practical experience of
the highest authorities. They have arrived, too, at re-
sults with respect to the subject in the accomplishment
of which they place the most complete confidence. They
in no way shrink from the responsibility of end, avouricg
to effect an object which we all have so much at heart,
and which it will certainly become their paramount daty
to use every means in their power to attain, provided
Parliament will only place,thinn in a position in which
the remedies which they have in contemplation may be
effectually brought into action. (Hear.) Now, theex-
penditure which it would be necessary to incur in order
to secure that end—in order to clear our river and to
complete the main drainage of the city—is estimated at
a considerable amount. It cannot, indeed, be computed
at much less than 3,000,0001. ; and now comes the
question, how is that expenditure to be met ? In reply
to that question I have to state, in the first instance,
that her Majesty's Government propose, for the consi-
deration and, as I trust, fur the final adoption of the
house the following scheme. We propose to take steps
by means of which this new corporation to which I have
referred should find itself in the possession of a eoveider-

able income—l shall not say of a permanent, but at all
events not of a transient character—(hear, hear)—that,
in other words, it should have an income at its command
for a considerable number of years which will enable it

to effect all those objects which we now seek to accom-
plish. (Hear, hear,) In order to carry cut those views
we propose that Parliament should interfere and impose
a rate on the inhabitants of the metropolis, which shall
form a special rate, for the purpose of purifying the river
and completing the main drainage of the city—(bear,
hear)—a rate which shall be confined to the promotion
of those objects only, and which shall be denominated
in legislation and practice "the main sewage rate
of the metropolis." (Hear, hear.) We propose that
it should be, both as regards its amount and
the duration of the period of its imposition, a tax which
should effect these two objects—namely, that it should
supply the necessary funds for the accomplishment of
the great work which I have mentioned—the cost of
which, as I said before, ws cannot estimate at a less sum
than 3,000,0001.—and that it should furnish a basis upon
which engagements might be entered into, conditions
subscribed, and regulations made under the direction of
competent authorities—to whom I shall subsequently
more particularly refer--by means of which at the ex-
piration of the period during which the rate may be
levied—a sinking fund having been in simultaneous

action—the complete extinction of the whole of the debt
which may he contracted for the attainment of the end
which we have in view might take place. (Hear.) If
that result can be brought about it will. in our opinion,
be found to furnish a satisfactory solution of the finan-
cial part of the question. (Cheers.) Now, we are in-
formed, and I have documents before rue which afford
evidence of the justice of the calculation, that a rate of
not more than 34. in the pound, levied for a term of 40
years, will be sufficient to provide funds for the comple-
tion of the whole of the main drainage of the metropolis,
and at the same time to furnish a sinking fund which at
the end of that period will enable the Metropolitan Board
of Works to liquidate the debt which they shall have
incurred in order to carry this scheme into execution.
(Hear.) That this result may be arrived at, an appeal--
and to my mind an appeal of a most legitimate character
—has been made to her Majesty's Government for assist-
ance. It is not an appeal made on behalf of the Metro-
politan Board of Works to aid them by an advance of
the public money or by means of a tax to be levied
upon the community generally in meeting any por-
tion of an expenditure which, elthough considerable in
amount, is still of a local nature. (Hear, hear.) They
simply ask 119 to assist them, as we have been in the
habit of assisting the prosecutors of public works in
almost every portion of the kingdom. (Hear.) The
house cannot fail to be aware that there is a machinery
in existence through the medium of which pecuniary aid
is extended at a moderate rate of interest, for the purpose
of promoting public enterprises, such for instance as the
building of bridges, gaols, and other public institutions,
and which also provides the mode in which those advances
should be repaid. The establishment through whose
agency this is effected is known under the name of the
Exchequer-bills Loan Commissioners Advances; but its
powers, I may add, are of too limited a character to enable
us to avail ourselves of its interference in the present in-
stance. We propose, however, to attain the end at which
we aim by means of a machinery, if not of a precisely
similar, at all events of an analogous character. The house
will perceive that if we invest the Metropolitan Board of
Works with the power of levying a rate of 3d. for a period
of 40 years, which would amount to about 140,800/. per
annum, they would then be in the possession of a consider-
able, though not altogether permanent income, and would
have it in their power to raise money. Bat acother diffi-
culty arises then. Most of those institutions in this metro-
polis which have largo amounts of capital at their disposal
are prevented, either by bye-laws or by conditions in their
deeds of incorporation and settlement, from lending their
capital except upon real secnrities or upon the security of
the public funds. Therefore, they could not lend
money to the Metropolitan Board of Works, even if it be
endowed 'with the power of raising 140,0031. a-year for 40
years, and even if they would be satisfied with such secu-
rity. What we propose is that the Government would
guarantee the principal and interest of the sums which the
Metropolitan Board of Works may wish to raise for the
fulfilment of the task imposed upon them upon certain
conditions. We propose that the Government should
guarantee capital and interest as to the sum of 3,000,0001.,
provided the Metropolitan Board of Works causes this
revenue of 140,000/. a-year for forty years, subject to
conditions which are contained in this bill, which
will place the financial operation under the control
.of the ' Treasury, by which means we shall
' secure not only the payment of the interest, but
also the regular operation of the sinking fund. We
propose that we should guarantee these advances up to
3,00,000/. during a term necessary for the construction of
the works, at a rate of interest not exceeding 4 per cent.,
and thus the 140,0001. per annum to be raised will not
only pay the interest upon the 3,000,00 N., but will pro-
bably leave the debt incurred by the corporation entirely
liquidated. It is possible, indeed, that the Government
may not be called upon for a single shilling, for with such
a guarantee, there will be no difficulty in the way of the
Metropolitan Board of Works raising the money. (ITear.)
By these means the Metropolitan Board of Works will find
themselves in possession of a sufficient and adequate in-
come, not only for the construction of all works connected
with the main drainage of the metropolis, but also for a
sinking fund which at the end of the term will have li-
quidated all advances. Such is the outline of the plan we
proeose. Her Majesty's Government having now placed
the Metropolitan Board of Works in an efficient position
as regards finance--if this scheme be sanctioned by the
house—had next to consider what should be their course as
to the construction of the works themselves. (I-Tear. hear.)
After having given the subject all the consideration which
its importance demands—and I assure the house with no
desire of shrinking from responsibility—we are of opinion
that it would be the wisest course, if our plan bo adopted,
to leave the Metropolitan Board of Works in perfect free-
dom as regards the construction of the works. We shall
therefore propose that all the regulations contained in the
original bill constituting the local government of the me-
tropolis, which require that under certain circumstances
it should bo incumbent upon the Metropolitan Board of
Works to apply for the sanction of the First Commissioner
of Works, and under other circumstances to ask for the
stdahunmTheectbtriiie.oloil:nof Parliament, shall be entirely repealed. (Hear,
hear.) We propose to give to that body ample and ade-
quate means for the fulfilment of the duties imposed
upon them, and we also propose that they should be left in
the full enjoyment of freedom and of that responsibility
resulting from the position in which wo desire to place
them The bill provides that the works shall be com-
pleted in 5,t, years—that is, by the end of 1861, and dur-
ing that period the adVances will be repaid. I anticipate,
as far as I can at present form any opinion, that upon the
whole we may reckon that 600,000/. per annum, or 300,0001.
every six months, will probably be required to carry on
these works. I believe I have now laid before the house a
general outline of the scheme which we intend to moonl-
it) avn enpniocelrntttsonf
for me
mr
butliea
nmot Paw
rliament.
eraTo
e hn teder
ore
tuaa
leos nant
whathd e bill
ai
wouldrl le p manyro n,enrctl
sabuuebs
j,..,eesocnot
con-
venient
n
for consideration in committee. The house will have to de-
cide whether the course which we have taken is upon the
whole the most prudent that could be devised, and at the
same time a !equate to the conjuncture. What
of e have
sought to do is to make the Metropolitan Board_
responsibility which
without
oaui
aid
s unshackled
cannot be expected unless we leave it perfectlyende to
and untrammelled. (Hear, hear.) We have .
naf
non: edoasnli_yet corporation—(hear)
power,opno(ri a.o ti
but
int—twr(eil ist ehpaorn)-s
sufficient-btioi responsibility —a
invest it ie tpr: withn d t
os u
sf ni tt
ct of Parliament in
arliament to sanction
sd aprude nt
considerre resources
°et
et:t:'l7ews a local
or reconcile
trenchingc
what, cil a
fithetne naylld, ev
orattainmentocannpnoo of tthhbeosi
_net
r
tomioarnfltehi'n'eodn'.-PUdin.easury we have done
e house will conclude that it is
I have now placLe'
awnoyr work,
interference
r oa
ns
thesve rpg. eeaciroa.
that, as
this measure, and I ask for
house the general feature
bill
to
underag a point
th e
of
order,
irrdceurs
submittedanc ,
in
h
its leave to introduce a purify the Thames, and to
suchso
applicationcuans iesson
thatoafwmilt' tt
power.rhuest th
before th e
a legitimate and,
provide for the main drainage of the metropolis. (Hear.)
cr°ohnEotno,BlitjdneCbdisCpp'orwoceorlsofdorbytaaxinregsotlhaeticoonu.ntry, its intro-
at there was anything in the bill levying a tax
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware
upon the country. (Hear, hear.) The character of the
bill went to show that the Imperial resources were not to
be applied to this work.
Mr. WILSON said the rule teas that if a bill authorised
the contraction or the guarantee of any loan there must be
a preliminary resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
that a main feature of the bill was to guarantee the prin-
cipal and interest of the money to be raised.
The SPEA.KER sail he was not aware of the form of
the bill, but unquestionably if its main feature was to give
a guarantee from the public resources, or anything that
might by any possibility entail a tax upon the public, it
must be preceded by a preliminary resolution.
The CHA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER feared ho
could not move a resolution at once.
Mr. WILSON referred to the rale which required the
lapse of at least one day between each stage of a money
bill.

hat s
every
clauses
TI ho re dtso theAm LA IKuEF7RRa Su
repeatedTt e N
and
gentleman should bring in his bill without the clauses re-
lating
containinggbl et e dhcolend
afterwards. (Hear, hear.)
pro-
visions which did, or by possibility might, entail taxation
upon the country must bs pi ece led by a resolution. There
Ihibsaietl tchoeal
were many precedents in which clauses of that nature were
moved in committee of the whole house, but, not knowing
the exact form in which the bill was drawn, it was difficult
for him to decide at once upon the point now raised.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that in 1843 a case occurred the
decision in which established two points—first, that a bill
for merely metropolitan taxation must be preceded by a
resolution of the whole house ; and, secondly, that the
same proceeding was necessary, although the tax should
be purely incidental and beside the main object of the bill.
Upon the third reading, or some other very late stage of
theroalwhippere' Bill, the present Sir B. Hawes, who was
one of its fiercest opponents, objected that as a sum of
I,COO/. which was to be raised to enable the corporation
to put pens, ink, and paper in the Coalwhippers'-office,
was secured upon the coal duties, it might lead to their
continuance for one day longer than would otherwise be
necessary—that there would be a tax, and that therefore
the bill ought to have been preceded by and founded upon
a resolution of the whole house. That point wag submitted
to the Speaker and to the law officers of the Crown ; and
upon consideration Mr. Speaker Lefevre hold that the pro-
visions of the bill for raising this 1,0331• would not enable
the authorities to continue the coal duties for a single hour,
and that therefore the bill might proceed. At the same
time he stated that, had the reverse been the case, the ob-
jection would have been fatal to the measure.
Mr. WALPOLE submitted that in this instance the bill
might be introduced without the clauses relating to money,
which might be added to it after being passed through a
preliminary committee of the whole house.
Mr. AYRTON suggested that the same object might bo
attained by introducing two bills,—one to extend the
powers of the Metropolitan Board of
000 Works, and the other
to provide for the raising of the 3,000,/.
The SPEAKER said that the standing order which re-
ferred to the introduction of bills by means of a prelimi-
nary committee was, " That no bill relating to religion or
tram', or the alteration of the laws concerning religion or
trade, be brought into this lioire until the proposition shall
have been first considered in a committee of the whole
house, and agreed unto by the house." It was impossible
to say that this was a bill relating to trade or religion, be-
cause it referred to the main drainage of the metropolis.
It was his impression that if the cleueee referring to the

raising of the money were guarded by being passed through
a preliminary committee of the whole house all that was
required by the forms of the house would be accomplished.
Mr. WILSON called attention to another standing
order, of the 29th of March, 1707, which provided,
" That this house will not proceed upon any petition,
motion, or bill for granting any money, or for releasing
or compounding any sum of money owing to the Crown,
but in committee of the whole house." That had
been held to involve all questions of guarantee or what-
ever might become a charge upon the Consolidated Fund.
The SPEAKER then put the question " That leave be
given to bring in a bill for the main drainage of the metro-

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said, that the inhabitants of the
metropolis would receive with great satisfaction the state-
ment which had been made by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and the prinniples upon which he proposed to deal
with this subject. On behalf of his constituents and on
his own he thanked the right hon. gentleman and the Go-

vernment for the course whieh they had taken.
Mr. AYRTON had also listened with the utmost satis-
faction to the announcement of the right hon. gentleman ;
but he must give the right hon. gentleman warning that
between this and the next session he must b 3 prepared to
frame a comprehensive scheme, reviewing the whole system
upon which the metropolis was taxed. If the metropolis
had no claim for aid upon the national resources, it was
equally true that the national exchequer had no claim upon
the local resources of the metropolis. On grounds of public
tranquillity, considering the great number of the popula-
tion of the metropolis, he urged upon the Government the
necessity of giving to the metropolis a real measure of
municipal government. (Hoar.)
Mr. LOCKE regarded the bill of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer as the play of "Hamlet" with the part of
Hamlet left out. The bill was understood to be one for
the purification of the river Thames, but not one word had
been said upon that subject, and he thought that the Go-
vernment ought to have announced that there was a plan
proposed either by the Board of Works or by the Govern-
ment which the Government would recommend to the
adoption of the house. All that the right honours
able gentleman had said was, that he left the subject
entirey to the Board of Works. Ho (Mr. Locke) had,
' however, no confidence in that body ; and ail that
the Government proposed to do was to give in-
creased facilities to that body. In addition to this, he
contended that the sum of three millions proposed to be
raised under the powers of this bill, would not be sufficient
for carrying out effectually the works which were neces-
sary for the purification of the river. The Beard of Works
proposed to carry the sewage down to a point which would
not relieve the metropolis of the nuisance which was
sought to be removed. The bill in reality meant nothing;
nobody understood it, and the only thing that was clear
was that the Government would place implicit confidence
in a board which had hitherto done nothing.
Mr. BYNG tendered his best thanks to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer and the Government for having done
their best to grapple with the most important subject that
could occupy the attention of Parliament at the present
time. Ile thought, however, that the Government ought
to have kept in their hands the veto upon any measure
which might be proposed by the Board of Works. He
thought that the house ought to have had some informa-
tion respecting the nature of the plan which the Board of
Works was about to adopt. Among other things which
he would recommend was that the Government offices in
the metropolis should bear their fair share of the taxation
which would be necessary to carry out the plans contem-
plated by the present bill.
Mr. KEN DALL objected to the Government guarantee-
ing 3,000,0001. before any specific plan had been agreed on,
that of the Metropolitan Board of Works having been dis-
approved of by the most eminent engineers, who believed
that if the sewage were carried to Barking it would be
floated back again to the metropolis. But oven if they
succeeded in carrying off the sewage waters he wanted to
know what was to be done with the mud banks ; and,
further, he wished to be informed what was to be done
during the five or six years that m. st elapse before the
works could be completed.
Sir B. HALL described what had occurred between him
and the Metropolitan Board of Works when he was First
Commissioner of Works, and went on to state that Captain
Burstall, who was employed to report on the subject, had
stated that the sewage could be discharged without float-
ing back to the metropolis at a point one mile above Erith
on the south side and at a corresponding point of distance
on the north. The Metropolitan Board resclvod to adopt
a plan based on the principle laid down by Captain Bnr-
stall, and transmitted that plan to him as First Commis-
sioner. He submitted it to three eminent engineers,—
Mr. Simpson, Mr. Blackwell, and Captain Galtone—who
disapproved the plan, and suggested another of their own.
This plan was sent to the Metropolitan Board ; and he un-
derstood the plan now adopted by the Board was founded
on Captain Burstall's scheme, altered in some respects by
two referees. Although the right hon. gentleman had not
mentioned this in his statement, he believed the Govern-
ment had already to a great extent approved a plan and
wore prepared to sanction a very material alteration in
that part of the Act of 1855 which determined that the
outfall of the drainage should not be at a point near the
metropolis. The point of outfall proposed was, he believed,
on the south two miles higher up the river, and on the
north three miles higher up ; and he thought some explana-
tion on this subject was called for from the Government.
(Hear.) Into the details of the plan submitted he would
not go, but he approved entirely the principle that they
should entertain none of the absurd projects submitted to
the committee upstairs, bet should have the work carried
out by means of intercepting see Cl'4 to remove the drain-
age out of the metropolitan area. The real question was,
what was the nearest point at which the outfall should be
fixed? And on this most important question ho hoped the
Government would propose proper s deguaeds, so that the
metropolis should not be polluted by the reflux of sewage
matter. (Hear.) Although, too, the principle of intercep-
tion was one which, above all others, ought to be adopted in
any scheme for the main drainage of the metropolis, yet he
did not think that mere interception would carry out all
that was absolutely desirable. lie entertained a strong
opinion that some day or other a much greater work must
be undertaken, one which could not b, borne by the metro-
polis only—he meant the embankment of the Thames.
(Cheers.) Every civil engineer who hail investigated the
subject arrived at the same conclusion, and believed that
this was the only way in which to prevent the exhalations
which otherwise would constantly arise from the river
banks. (Hear, hear.) As regarded local taxation, the me-
tropolis was in a peculiar position on this point. To a cer-
tain extent it possessed municipal institutions ; certain
boards possessed certain corporate powers ; but in point
of fact, they bore no analogy whatever to corporate Isociies
existing in other parts of the empire. The hon. member
(Mr. Ayrton) said the metropolitan taxation was 400,0001.
a-year, but it really amounted to much more. That cal-
culation did not include the inetage of corn and other ar-
ticles, which was at present swallowed up by the City
corporation. Now, if those powers of levying taxes were
extended over the whole metropolis and the proceeds ex-
pended I,r the benefit of the metropolitan area generally,
he believed there would be no reason to complain. As to
the means proposed for providing the necessary funds, the
141st section of his bill in 1855, when first introduced,
contained the same special provision as that now suggested
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) Re-
specting the provision by which the approval of the First
Commissioner of Works was rendered necessary in certain
cases, it would have been a great gratification to him if
that duty had not been imposed upon him. It was a very
troublesome one, and the noble lord his successor in office,
was no doubt glad to get rid of it. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Lord J. MANNERS said his right hon. friend in intro-
ducing the bill had contented himself with an exposition of
the general principles on which he thought such legislation
ought to be founded, and wisely so, because, unless the
house arrived at a distinct conclusion as to the general
principle which should guide the relations between the
Government and the municipality of this great city, it was
in vain to come to Parliament with plans either for drain -
ing London or embanking the Thames. (Hear, hear.) This
general principle was [that those who had to pay for
works should be at liberty to decide what those works
were to be—(heer, hear) —a principle embodied in the
homely proverb that, " He who pays the fiddler has a right
to call the tune." (Hear.) The right hon. baronet (Sir B.
Hall) was jealous, and perhaps naturally so, lest any altera-
tion should be made by the Board of Works in the point of
outfall as specified in the act of 1855. Now, he was sure his
lion. friend (Hr. Kendall) the chairman of the Thames
Committee would bear him out in saying that if one thing
was m .re clearly established than any other in the course
of the investigation it was, that you could not arrive at
anything like a conclusion as to the point at which sewage
matter thrown into the Thames would not return again to
the metropolis. (Hear.) lie thought some disposition had
been manifested during the debate to bring under the no-
tice of the house all the schemes which had been proposed,
or which might be proposed, on this subject, with the
view of asking the house to declare its opinion upon such
schemes. It must, however, bo evident to those who had
paid any attention to the investigation of the select com-
mittee, that it was utterly impossible for gentlemen who
did not possess professional and practical knowledge and
experience to form ally sound conclusion as to the point
of outfall at which the sewage might be thrown into the
river with the eel tainty that it would not return to the
metropolis. For his own part ho must decline the respon-
sibility of expressing any opinion on the subject. The right
hon. gentleman had asked what security would be taken
that, whatever points of outfall might be fixed upon by
the Metropolitan Boar,l of Work, no nuisance should be
created. The point of outfall which had been suggested
was Barking Creek, but if any point nearer to the metro-
polis was fixed upon it had been determined that the sew-
age should be deodorised before it woes dischtirged into
the river. The hon. chairman of the committee who had
investigated this subject seemed to think that her Ma-
jesty's Government ought, before introducing this bill, to
have .satisfied themselves what plan the Metropolitan
Bused of Works intended to adopt ; but it was impossible
for any Government to satisfy their minds as to arrange-
ments which required the greatest amount of profes-
sional skill and intelligence, and with regard to which there
was a wide difference of opinion among those who were best
qualified to deal with such questions. It would be remem-
bered that, in the course of the investigation before the
committee, statements were made with respect to other
great cities besides London. It appeared that Glasgow hail
found itself in almost—if not quite— as evil a plight
with regard to the Clyde as that of the metropolis
with respect to the Thames ; but he did not find that the
Government were asked to dictate to the Corporation of
Glasgow in what manner they should deal with the Clyde.
The Corporation of Glasgow had availed themselves of the
highest engineering and chemical assistance they could
obtain, with the view of purifying the Clyde, and abating
the nuisance—(hear, hear)—and the expense had been
defrayed by the people of Glasgow. (Hear, hear.)
The principle of the bill which his right hon. friend
asked leave to introduce was in direct accordance
with this view, for it did not propose to direct in what
manner the great works which were requisite should be
carried out. The hon. member for Southwark had asked
who were the persons to whom these extensive powers were
to be intrusted. They were the representatives of the
People, elected for the purpose of local administration
—(hear, hear)—and her Majesty's Government were of
opinion that they could not better discharge their duty
than by leaving the settlement of this question with
those who, for all local purposes, unquestionably re-
presented the metropolitan community. (Hear, hear.)
That was the principle upon which this bill was based, and
he believed it to be a sound principle. When he was last in
office he had had the satisfaction of settling the interment
question upon the same principle—viz., that of giving to
the municipal authorities the power of taking such measures
as they deemed most advisable for remedying a serious and
growing evil. The hon. chairman of the committee had
asked what temporary palliatives for the existing nuisance
would be adopted before the great works which were requi-
site could be undertaken and rendered effective. The hon.
member would find that the bill contained a clause giving

full power to the Metropolitan Board of Works to adopt
in the interval such measures as they might deem necessary
for the temporary mitigation of the existing nuisance.
Hon. gentlemen would find, when the bill was in their
hands, that it had been most carefully and skilfully framed,
and that while on the one hand the country would be

spared the expenditure of a single shilling for the remedy
of the existing evils, on the other hand the metropolis
would have th credit and glory of removing, at its own
expense, an acknowledged nuisance, in a manner entirely
consistent with the habits and customs of this old-fashioned
Anglo-Saxon community.
Mr. WILSON thought the best and most economical
plan would be for her Majesty's Government to make a
loan for this specific purpose and advance it at specified
times as it was required, through the Exchequer Loan
Commissioners, who had a perfect machinery for conduct.
ing such business. By the proposed plan of her Majesty's
Government they would have to introduce a new machi-
. .

nery into the Treasury department, which he thought ob-
jectionable.
Mr. J. T. NORRIS considered responsibility in this un-
dertaking should devolve on the executive body who
would have to carry out the works. He defended the Me-
_ ___ . ..

tropolitan Board of Works from the charges of incapacity
that had been brought against them, and corrected an error
with reference to the cost of the proposed site for the erec-
tion of their offices. Instead of 40,0001., as bad been
stated, the purchase money for Berkeleyhouse, Spring-
gardens, was only .15,00)1. The Metropolitan Board of
Works were perfectly capable of carrying out these works.
Mr. TITE said that if the sewage was deodorised, it
would make no difference where it went into the river

He had some misgivings that when the heavy expenses of
the undertaking were felt by the ratepayers, attempts
would be male to check its progress. but he hoped provi-
sions would be introdiced into the bill to prevent it. The
Metropolitan Board of Works had considered this subject
with great diligence and skill, yet he was astonished to
final, a few weeks since, that they had postponed its, fur-
ther c )nsideration till October next, and that led him to
think that if a few were selected out of the present body,
and presided over by the chairman, it would be a more
manageable body for carrying out these works. He con-
gratulated the people of the metropolis on the probability
of the grievous nuisance they had had to complain of being
speedily got rid of.
Sir J. SHELLEY expressed his gratification at the in-
troduction of the bill. All the Metropolitan Board of
Works had required all along was a Government guaran-
tee, and bad it been given earlier he had no doubt they
would have commenced these works some time ago. Be

thought, however, that the late Government did light in
refusing their asssent to the first plans that were submitted
to them. He was anxious to see the work begun, feeling
convinced that many objections to the scheme now before
the Metropolitan Board of Works might be got rid of in
the course of construction, and there was nothing in the
bill to prevent the works being extended to Sea Reach
hereafter, if it were found necessary.
Mr. STEPHENSON, having expressed his opinion that
the plan laid before the late Commissioners of Sewers by,
Mr. Bazelgette for the drainage of the metropolis was the
best, and having eulogised the general engineering ability of
that gentleman on all matters connected with sewage, said
ho thought the house was labouring under an error on the
question of outfall. Those who differed most widely on the
subject were agreed that, provided the intercepting system
were adopted, it was a matter of perfect indifference whe-
ther Barking Creek or Sea Reach were the point of feudal,.
He suggested that the adoption of the interception system
should be made imperative. (Hear, hear.) It was the most
comprehensive plan ; it was calculated to be the most per-
manent, and he was sure that if it, were partially carried
out next year it would produce a most beneficial effect on
the river. It was, in his opinion, essential that that system
should be expeditiously commenced and vigorously carried
out; for it possessed this advantage, which was exclusively
its own, that every step that was taken would improve the
condition of the river. (Hear, hear.)
Col. SYKES expressed his regret that a more compre-
hensive plan had not been decided on, and one that would
have taken in the embankment of the Thames.
After some remarks from Sir J. SHELLEY,
General CODIIINGTON said the moat important part
of the question was the outlet. Care should be taken in
removing a nuisance from one place that they did not in-
flict it on another locality.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQVER—I think
that I may congratulate the inhabitants of the metropolis
upon the manner in which, generally speaking, the proposi-
tion of the Government has been received. So far as we are
concerned the measure is chiefly of a financial character,
and I cannot say that I regret that the Government have
thought proper to limit their interference to the financial
part of the subject. (Hear.) One result of the bill will be
to convert the Metropolitan Board of Works into a real
corporation. It, will give them power ; with that power
they will feel a sense of duty, and I cannot doubt that a
body of Englishmen, elected by a very large and en-
lightened constituency, will do their duty, and that their
conduct will entitle them to the confidence and respect of
their fellow-citizens. We have given them great responsi-
bility, but we hays also given them considerable resources,
and I think that the union will be satisfactory. (Hear.)
I will not touch upon the scientific portion of the question,
which scarcely comes within the scope of the bill ; but I
may tell my hon. friend, who speaks with authority on the
subject, that we make it a condition with the Metropolitan
Board of Works that they shall effect the object which we
desire, that that result shall be attained by the system of
intercepting sewers, and that provision shall be made for
such temporary and permanent works of deodorisetion as
the metropolis has a right to require. (Hear.) With re-
spect to the recommendation of the hon. member for Da-
venport that assistance should be given to the Board
of Works by the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners,
I may say that we did not consider that proposi-
tion, but that the result of our deliberations led us to a
different conclusion from that a'. which the hon. gen-
tleman has arrived. I see no reason whatever why under
this hill any advance of public money need take place. The
board will have the power of issuing bonds and debentures,
which probably they will do at a fixed rate of interest, and
they will obtain for them a sum of money according to the
rate of interest in the market. At all events, they will
have the power to deal with their own bonds and deben-
tures, and I have no doubt that they will become a very-
popular and satisfactory security, supported, as they will
be, by the guarantee of the Government. (Hear, hear.)
Another subject of importance to which the hon. gentle-
man called attention was thenecessitpyuobfliccobnsuiidlderiningsg
whether a large and valuable portion of
should continue to be exempted from rating. So far as lam
concerned I think that the principle of exemption is a very
bad one, and certainly in financial legislation it shoal&
always be avoided. (Hear, hear.) The question did come
under our consideration ; but as a committee of the House
of Commons has been appointed to investigate the whole
subject I cannot doubt that we are approaching a time
when almost all exemptions from rating will cease. (Hear.)
The virtual effect of this will of course be a contribution
from the Consolidated Fund, but a contribution on sound.
principles of finance. The inquiry of the committee, uo
doubt, has been confined to the poor-tate, but that regu-
lates all rates ; and I have no doubt, if the decision of the
committee is acceded to by this house, that it will in-
fluence all rates. The gallant general who spoke last
seemed somewhat alarmed at the position in which
his constituents might be placed, but he will find a
proviso in the bill which renders it impossible for the
Metropolitan Board of Works to creatT a nuisance in any
quarter whatever ; and, even were there no such proviso,
I believe the courts of law would come to the assistance of
his constituents. On the whole, I take a more sanguine
view of the probable effect of this measure in a financial
point of view than many gentlemen who have spoken. My
business being to provide a perfect security for the country,
the bill is so drawn that any excess of expenditure, if any
there should be beyond the 3,000,0001. here empowered -to
be raised, will not be covered by our guarantee. It will
be necessary, however, for the Board of Works to keep. a
separate banking account of this rate under the control of
the Treasury, and every security is taken that this 3d. rate
for 40 years shall be dedicated exclusively to the purls,: ses
specified in the bill. It may at first sight seem a large
financial result to be able to construct public works to the
amount of 3,000,000/. by a 3d. rate, and at the end of the
term of 40 years not to find yourself in debt ; but the cal-
culation has been made by persons of the highest entire-
rity, and the house may rely on its accuracy. I propose. to
read the bill a second time on Monday, and with regard to
an objection which has been taken on the point of order, I
am empowered to state, on the very highest authority tient
I have made no mistake in introducing it in its present
form, and that no stage of its progress need be delayed on
that account. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK said, the great objection to the Board
of Works was its present mode of election by the vestries.
Before long the people who paid the money would del nand
to have the power of electing the persons who spent it, and
the Government would be called on to alter the constital.-
tion of the Board in that particular.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill, which was
subsequently brought in, and read a first time.
The Cornwall Submarine Mines Bill was read a seco-ad
time.