The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-31 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONUON, FRIDAY EVENiNct, MAY 31 1867.

of the Government was that the four thousand innocent

should be punished with the five hundred guilty ; but the
proposition was so monstrous that he was surprised the
Chancellor of the Exchequer should have put it in the bill;

he was astonished that the right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for South Lancashire should have supported it, and he

should be amazed if it received the sanction of the house.

(Hear.) His hon. friend and relative would forgive him for

referring to what bad taken place in Wakefield. At the
general election of 1859 it was found that extensive bribery
prevailed in that borough, and one of the most honourable

and conscientious men living, having unfortunately come
in contact with the system, had almost become inex-

tricably iuvolved in it. (Loud laughter.)
.If. there

were no honourable and conscientious men who had been

connected with br;ber3,-, ho could only say that ho should
form an unfavourable opinion of many he saw around him.

(Renewed laughter.) I;ut the committee knew what took
place in the case of Wakefield. There was a commission
and a full inquiry, but the borough was not disfranchised.

When the next election came, round hi 3 hon. friend and

relative determined to have nothing more to do with it ;
but the col:stitueney having feltthat they had suffered from
what had ta:sen place, entered into an agreement to return

him without canvass and expanse, and gave a pledge at the
same time not to resort to bribery. The result was that the
borough of Wakaleld was restored and bribery discon-
tinued as far as the party of his hon. friend was concerned.
The right hon. gentleman then referred to the boroughs
disfranchised in kchedul ) A, bat those boroughs were dis-
franchised on the ground of general policy, because Hey
were not in any sense a representation of the people, and
that their members should be given to large towns and
cities, where they would represent a considerable amount
of public opinion. The right course in the present case
would be what had been suggested—that the writs should
be suspended. (Cries of "No, no.") There was no man in
the house to whom corruption was more odious than to
himself ; but he would never consent that many hundreds
of innocent men should be perpetually disfranchised, and
the great population of Lancaster and Yarmouth perpetu-
ally excluded because a small number of electors in ono
generation had been guilty of the offence.
Viscount -CRANBORNE thought there was danger of
the committee being misled by the term " disfranchise-
ment." If they said to the people of Yarmouth that they
never should have any share in the representation of the
country, in that case the punishment would be out of pro-
portion to their guilt.
Mr. H. VIVIAN said ho would support the clause, as he
believed there was a desire on the part of a largo number
of the respectable inhabitants of Great Yarmouth that the
borough should be disfranchised.
Mr. P. WYNDHAM made a few observations which
were not intelligible in the gallery owing to the loud and
constant cries of "Divide" on both sides of the house.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Government had not proposed the present clause
without the most mature and anxious consideration, and
the conviction that it was one which was justified by
scund policy. The charge of the hon. member for Bir-
mingham, that the Government were proceeding in the
present course because *it suited the convenience of their
other arrangements, had no foundation in justice. (Hear,
hear.) On the contrary, they were anxious that the
clause, if carried, should bo carried by the general sense
and feeling of the committee; as it was only by such
means that it would have the moral effect which it was
desirable it, should produce. The more he considered the
question of bribery and corruption the more firmly was ho
convinced that the practice had very little effect upon the
fortunes of parties, however it might gratify the ambition
and vanity of individuals who wished to force their way
into a position into society. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words of explanation from Mr. Bright, the
amendment to omit the words " Great Yarmouth" was
negatived without a division.
The CHAIRMAN then put the preamble of the clause.
The committee then divided, when there were—
For the preamble
. Against ...
Majority

... 323

-276

Colonel PATTEN then moved to omit Great Yarmouth
and Lancaster, with a view of moving at the end of the
clause that the writs for thoso boroughs should be sus-
pended for ten years. This ho submittted would b 3
punishment enough.
Mr. ACLAXD suggested that the period of suspension
should be 23 or 30 years, and Mr. BAXTER that it should

be 13 years.
Mr. GLADSTONE observed that if mercy ware ex-
tended to any of those boroughs it ought to be extended
to Reigate. If the suspension were to b.) continued till
1887 he should support it.
Lord CRANBORNE pointed out that by suspnding the
writs they would not turn these electors over to the county
constituency, but they would not be represented at all.
The discussion was continued for some time longer, Mr.
Ayrton, Mr. Cubitt, Mr. Gurney, the Solicitor-General,
and Mr. Cardwell arguing iu support of the ,:latise, and
Sir G. Bowyer, the Martinis of flartington, Mr. Gilpin, and
Mr. allwyn supporting the ametulment. Mr. Read pro-
tested against the constituency of Ea=t "Norfolk being eon-
thrninat,tl by that of Great Yarmouth being add6d to it,
and Mr. 11.-yld stozgested that instead of disfranchisement
they should try the ballOt.
The CHANOLLI.OIt, of the EXCIIEQUER contended,
that the policy recommended by the Government was the
right policy. The mere suspen:4-m of the writs would be
looked upon by the country as mere trifling. He believed
a gr:at effect would be produced by disfranchising those

borollghs.
On a division the amendment was rejected by 159, to 87,
and the chase as amended was agreed to.
THE REPRESENTATION OF MINORIIVES.

On clause 9, which enacts that the boroughs mentioned
in Schedule A shall return one member of Parliament,
Mr. MILL proposed an amendment, which he said was
intended to embody a principle not yet introduced into the
discussion, overlooked by the constitution, and disregarded
in most theories of political reform ; yet of great impor-
tance. The proposal will not give a weapon of attack or
defence to any party ; it is neither democratic, al istoeratic,
Tory, Whig, nor Belie:11; bat partakes somewhat of
all these qualities. It is to give fair play to all opinions of
all parties, so that none may bear down another. He
should assume the existence of a serious evil requiring a
remedy ; and that this remedy would be practicable and
efficacious. The evil is, that the electors already on the
register aro not represented. The representation about
the extension of which the house is inquiring
is most imperfect and insufficient ; and this is
what is offered to the new classes of electors. An enor-
mous
tbli,ei ttrezodtpifiriooamupniottneronotirtfoitntiihenos:f
the
eonotsseetlidet
upwql.r.ulielnaisegleihnfittehetdhdeeioad, con-
siststlvihron,attldteli,ob nebeuonf
rvteeihnoconct li yea
osr represented
minorities ; often blotted out for an indefinite period just
as much as if they were disqualified. They cannot, on the
average, be less than one-third, and sometimes approxi-
mate to one-half of the constituencies. Even the majori-
ties tire represented only in a rough way. Their represen-
tativo really only represents their party. This is not
enough. We want in the House of Commons not only a
sufficient numb .r of Conservatives and Liberals, hut the
best persons and representatives of their respective parties
The elector desires to be represented by the person who.
has most of his confidence in more than party matters.
How many electors in this country are represented by the
persons they would most prefer? Not one. (" Oh, oh,"
and cheers.) Well, the only electors who are so repro-
: nsst eids are
determinedttiose who
sometimeshave bee nbyb
his being
candidate'sgAfirst i
n th efieldsilc-;
sometimes by his having been defeated at a previous elec-
tion ; but most commonly by local leaders, who may bo
honest politicians, or jobbing intriguers—(no, no, and, hear,
hear)—who like the gentleman who is willing
to pay mostmoney. (Loud cheers and counter cheers.) It answers best
to put up seine person who has no opinion but those of
party, for if he has any others they will probably cost some
votes. -Clear, hoar.) having made -out a sufficier.t case
—(laughter, and hear, hear) —of the evil to be ceirected,
he would state the remedy. His proposal was that votes
shall be taken in every locality for other than the local
candidates ; that those electors who decline to vote for any
of the three or four careliil.ates in their locality should have
the power to bestow their votes on any ono who is a can-
didate arywhere else. (Prolonged laughter.) The natural
result will be that the elector will vote for the person among
the whole number of candidates who represents him best;
and when a certain number of votes have been given for a
candidate, be will be declared duly elected. It is objected
that this plan would destroy the local character of repre-
sentation. (Hear, hear.) But the feelings and opinions of
localities would bo represented so long as these feelings
existed in the minds of the electors, and as every elector
must reside in a locality. But in certain districts a majority
of the electors will always prefer to be represented by some
one connected with them by some special tie. It will bo
minorities, who know they cannot obtain local representa-
tion, who for the most part will avail themselves of the
new plan. With regard to the majority, the effect would
be to induce local leaders to bring forward the best kcal
candidates who can be obtained, because voters having
the power to carry their votes elsewhere, would demand a
candidate deserving of their votes. Let every elector
have the option of registering himself, either locally or
generally ; let borough elections take place on the local
register, and let those electors who register them-
selves as members of a national constituency have
members allotted in duo proportion to their numbers,
and let those only be voted for on the new principle. To
prevent a few popular names getting all the votes, 3,000
might be the minimum number of votes necessary to
secure the election of a candidate; but all votes regis-
tered above this number for a certain candidate would be
lost, unless each voter was permitted to put on his voting
paper the name of a second candidate for,whom his vote
might bo used if it were not wanted for the first candi-
date. This is all the voter will have to do more than at
present, the only person on whom additional duty will
devolve being the ecrutineer. He had given asimple, true,
and sufficiently full explanation of what many of yon have
heard about, but which very few know much about—(hear,
hear, and laughter)—tho plan of personal representation
of his eminent friend Mr. Hare. (Hear, hear.) Is a re-
presentation of parties all we have a right to. demand ? If
that were the case, it would be its well to set up three

flags, inscribed respectively " Tory," " Whig," and
"Radical," and when the electors had made their choice,
let the leaders of the winning party nominate the persons
to represent them. (Laughter.) Wo desire that this
house should represent the opinions of the country, and
this system would make it the express image of the nation.
(Hear, hear.) Its principle is neither specially Liberal
nor Conservative, but in a high degree both. Conserva-
tives chiefly deprecate any plan of parliamentary reform
by which there would be danger of some class of the com-
munity being swamped by the others ; but by this pro-
posal no fouling of interest which had among its adherents
several thousands of the electors need be without a repre-
sentation in this House proportionately to its numbers.
Minorities would have the power of being heard by the
best organs they could procure. Oa the other hand, he
claimed the support of democrats for this proposal, as it is
the only possible realisation of their political principles.
The true principle of democracy is, that everybody should
be represented and represented equally. I 3 an elector re-
pt esented by a member against whom ho voted ? In the
present mode of taking the suffrages nobody ii represented
but the majority. But this system is unjust to both the
majority and the minority, and moreover affords no
guarantee that the majority which seems to prevail repre •
sents the mejor:ty of Lhe eiecturs. The practical working
of the plan will always be in favour of those who
would otherwise be in danger of being outnumbered. (Cries
of " Agreed," and " Mom") If the parties in this house
would only give their minds to the comprehension—(laugh-
ter)—of the claims of this plan they would be convinced
that it was the only perfect system. Although this was an
age fertile in inventions, yet it was ono in which very
great improvements in human affairs had actually taken
place. It was an age iu which they had entered upon now
paths, and under circumstances which were entirely un-
exampled in history. They should therefore be neglecting
their duty if they declined to entertain a proposition be-
cause of its novelty. It was not the mere crotchet of an
individual, for it had been many years before the world
and had received the adhesion of SOlll3 of the most eminent
and thoughtful men in Germany, France, and the United
States. (Cries of "Oh, oh.") In the Swiss Confederation
there was a proposal for organising the constitution upon
the basis of this scheme. With regard to the machinery
with.which such a plan could be worked, neither he nor
its distinguished author was pledged to any particular
mode ; but if the matter were referred to a committee er
commission, a proper means could be devised for carrying
the principle into effect. He begged to move the amend-
ment which he had placed on the paper. (Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN having put the question, there were
loud cries of "No," but, after a short pause,
Viscount CRANBORNE rose amid cheers, and said that
ho must enter his most earnest protest against the mode in
which the hon. members appeared to treat a subject be-
cause it happened to Ina out of the ordinary course. With
reference to the scheme of the hon. member, they all knew
that it had no chance ofbeing adopted at present. They all
know instinctively thatit had no chance of success; but ho
did not see that because the scheme was not likely to pass,
it was not a fit thing for the representatives of the people
to discuss, particularly when it was known that it had
been supported by cultivated men out of doors, and
introduced to their noise by a gentleman who held so
high a position in the vorld of letters as the hon. member
for Westminster. It sppeared to him that the remedy
pointed out, if practicable, would only be partial ; for the
real evil was that they were in danger of drifting into a
system of nomination lei local political causes. Wherever
the majority would Wargo it would destroy all special
local interests, and the Langer would be that power would
not pass into the hands A the natural leaders of the people,
but into the hands of men who would use it for their own
ends. If they had to do with the philosophers they might
be safe enough ; but wlat they had to dread was that the
unphilosophical mind, vhich had been worked to a certain
point by the philosophers, would recoil from the safeguards
which those philosophers deemed necessary to counter-
balance their schemes Although the scheme could not
possibly be tried at tae present time, yet he thought the
house had not done kstica in not giving attention to a pro-
posal which was suiported in a speech of no common
eloquence. (ilear, har.)
Mr. MORRISON bought there were many objections to
the plan. Oa the otter hand, it carried the principles of
democracy to their kcal conclusion.
Mr. B. HOPE objects to the measure oo tho ground of
its impracticability.
Mr. Sergeant GASEIEE said ho did not know whether
the hon. member wishoe the house to boa house of philo-
sophers ; if so, God belpthem Ha hoped the house would
go to serious business.
The CIIA.NCELLORof the EXCHEQUER said he was
glad the subject had ben brought forward. It was one
which would, no doubt, in future hive the attention of
•
Parliament ; but ho sumsed the hen. member did not in-
tend to divide the housoitspon it. .

The arnendarmt was 'lcea withdrawn, as I the Chair-
man was ordered to repot progress'.

The house then went into committee on the Court of
Chancery (Ireland) Bill, which some progress was mule.
The Exchequer Illonds(£1.,700,090) B;11 was read a
accord time.
The Metropolitan Police till passtal through ctizmnitteo.
The Railways (Scotland) till was read a third time and

pars d.
The Metropolis Subways 11 was. read a &Ton d time,
and referred to a :elect coninittee.
all.. /am aEs obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend
the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts.
Mr. M•EVOY moved t nominate the select committee
ownot
11 ilP
ho found h
Ecclesiasticalir it s
at s this Coloneluf question was pressed it
ro testant feeling of the country
would be against it. lb moved that the committee be
nominated that day six oonths.
Ford NAAS supported the motion.
Mr. VANCE objectedto the composition of the com-
mittee, and suggested that it should be nominated by the
commiVee of selection.
On a division the amesdment was rjecteal by 63 to 42.
Another division took place on -the motion for the ad-
journment of the enlemg:ste,ividby 70 a 39
which lvtasnfoAvendothheyr Sir B.
Brydges, and was
for the adjournment of the, house was then made, and,
after some discussion, this was agreed to, and the house
adjo urued, accordingly, at 'en minutes to two o'clock.

RAILWAY IgTELLIGENCE.

GREAT WESTERN%

The committee appoitted at the adjourned meet-
ing of shareholders on be 29th of March last, " to
consult and advise with the board of directors in
reference to the financid position of the company
and the organisation and management of its affairs,"
have issued the following preliminary report :
'chatusine theyss
havegiven considerable attention to the
to them. At the time of their
appointment they fount the position of the com-
pany the most pressing question which required
entrustedb
their attention, and it is with no little satisfaction
they are able to state that the liabilities of the com-
pany in respect to the fliating debt have been
ry by 1
the 6 6 acceptance of the 6
dimi-
nished from the stun t)f £1,300,000, at which it
'
by £651,000. This
shtasoobdeoeun
etlffleec3tlesdt
poaftl July, 8
per cent. stock when originally offered to the pro-
prietors, and partly by the application of the re-
venue of the company to the discharge of these ob-
ligations in lieu of the paymeat,of dividend -in the
customary form. hitherto, in spite of the panic
which has affected railway securities, the greater
part of the debentures which have become payable
have been renewed 4t-a-rrioderate rate of interest,
and the interest on debentures, which is now pay-
able at the Bank of England, has of course b_!en re-
gularly met. The tommittea have satisfied them-
eelves, by an inspection of the return made in
pursuance of the Railway Companies Securities Act,
1866, that the debenture issue is considerablywithin
the limits of the D
-Arliamentary powers, and they
have no hesitation in stating their opinion that no
safer investment can be found than the debenture
stock of the company.
Numerous letters approving
the issue of 6 p?r ce it. sto,:k in payment of divi-
dend to meet the financial difficulties of the com-
pany have been received ; and your committee, on
a review of the past, are confirmed in the judgment
that no better course could have been pursued. It
will probably be necessary to continue a similar
course for a short period, unless a restoration
of confidence in railway securities, which may
reasonably be anti ipated, should obviate
c
the necessity for such au exceptional practice.
And the committee are of opinion that the 6 per
cent. stock is undoubtedly a safe investment, and at
no distant time will probably be in great request. In.
conference with the directors, it has been decided to
seek powers in the bill now before Parliament (in
accordance with the strongly expressed opinion of
the shareholders) for reducing the number of direc-
tors, so that the hoard may consist of not more than
15 nor less than 12, irrespective of the owner of the
Wynnstay estate, who holds a seat under legislative
enactment. In the opinion of the company's solici-
tor, it was not considered desirable to attempt to
make this change without the sanction of Parliament,
which, it is expected; will be obtained without diffi-
culty before the close of the present session. While
mush remains for the committee in conference with
the directors (who have given every assistance in
their power) to consider in respect of the future
policy of the companyrthis will require the most
careful deliberation for its duo decision, and much
More information than they yet have bad time to

obtain. Certainly, nothing has arisen in the course
of this investigation to shake their confidence in the
future prospects of the Great Western property,
although it is apparent that it is now suffering
severely, and must continue for some time to suffer,
from having been overloaded with unprofitable un-
dertakings. If, as may be hopel, the commercial
activity of the country shall recover from the fear-
ful prostration in which the calamities of the past
year have involved it, if railway traffics regain their
normal state—and the wonderful elasticity of com-
merce gives us reason to suppose that such will be
the case—the receipts of this company in a little
while will again be found steadily on the increase.
It will be the duty of your committee to advise with
the board, and with those of its officers most able to
assist in the work, in what way the income of this
company may be further developed. Edward Smith,
Chairman, Thomas Brassey, Richard W. Giles,
Robert Rankin, Sam. IL Thompson.