The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON TUESDAY EVENING, APRI:L 13, 1858.

LLNES LbASED FIXEu RENTAL.

Leasing
Companies

Closing Prices
yester ay

Bohm

Boldness Bore
this 4iy

this day.

THE PASSPORT SYSTEM..

84i i 5

57 8}

102 12 xcl
87 8i 8
127
91 9
stst

87i i i
5i

105
Hi i i
4
92,i 2

92 18 2j
t 3 4

51i

901 li
474
i3i 3

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-(YESTERDAY.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

The Earl of MALMESBURY gave notice that on
Thanday be would lay ou the table some coirespondence
relative to the passport system, and he would take the
opportunity of tusking a communication on the subject.
SCOTTISii UNIVERSITIES.

Lord CAMPBELL inquired whether the noble earl
opposite could give any information with respect to a
bill for the improvement of the Scottish Universities 1
The subject had been brought btfo:e the notice
of the Government previous to the recess, and
he wished to know whether it was the intention of
the Government to introduce a bill on the subject?
The Earl of DER BY was happy to say that his learned
frier.d the Lord Advocate had a bill on the subject in
the couree of preparation, and would shortly introduce
it in the other house.
AC rorrs NATURALISATION.
_ _

On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, Actoes Natu-
ralisation Act Amendment Bill was read a third time
and passed.

TRANSFER OF ESTATES (SIMPLIFICATION

BILL.)
The report of amendments on this bill was brought up,
and received.

Lord CRANWORTH objected to the first clause of
the bill. It would give no security; and he ebould, there-
fore, move that the bill he further amended by its omis-
sion.

Lord WENSLEYDALE agreed with his noble and
learned friend that the clause was unnece,sary.
Lord ST. LEONARDS contend?d that the clause
was absolutely necessary. His great object in bringing
in the bill was to lessen the expense rf transferring eatates,
the charges for which were enormou4. The omission of
this clause would damage the tffictency of the measure
and tend to keep up the present evil. He would make
a term of 30 years sufficient to give a title good against
all the world, and a bill possessing such a provision he
hardly thouzht cou'd be termed not worth having.
Lord ABINGER supported the bill, and Paid be was
inclined to rely on the authority and experience of Lord
St. Leonardo, rather than on that of the noble lords
who oppoqel the bill.

The LORD CHANCELLOR al -o opposed the bill.
He o jected to the new principle of legislation which it
introduced. Six or seven of the clauses of the bill de-
pended on the first, and the principle which they em-
bodied would be mischievou. and vexatious. The prin-
&ple of limitation established by the 3 and 4 Wm. IV.
was a safe one—that actions mu,t be brought within 20
sears t f the right accruing in possession. It wai, now
proposed that no right should be asserted within 20
years of the time when a conveyance was made for a
valuable con-idcration to a purchaser. This provision
might extend the limitation in certain cases. A person
might be in unlawful possession for 10 years ; he intgLt
then convey the property, and the right claimant would
still have 20 years to bring his action.
Lord Si'. LEONARDS said that was remedied by a
subsequent clause.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the clause re-
ferred to would not apply in all cases ; and the effect of
the bill in many instances would be to extend the pre-
sent limitation. Another objection to the bill was, that
it plan, d the remainder-man ent rely at the mercy of the
tenant for life. The latter might make an illegal con-
veyance, and might survive the period within which it
could be disputed by the remainder-man. Those were
the leading provisions of the bill on which their lord-
ships' opinion wai to be taken. He thought the old
principle the same one ; no grcund had been shown for
disturbing it ; and the prorise I alteration might be
most mischievous. He called on their lordships to re-
ject the clause.

Earl GREY hoped to see the conveyance of real pro-
perty nut on a proper ground by the establishment of a
registry of tide. (Hear, hear ) He thought the objec-
tions urged against the bill were such that no great ad-
vantage would result from it adoption. Many of the
ablest jurists and p economists objected to the
power of tying up and by settlementsfor a great length
of time ; the principle had now been so reduced and
limited that it was no longer objectionable ; but
rights of this cla.s ought not to be allowed to
artificial
with practical improvement in legislation. He
was not prepared, on that ground, to reject the clause
proposed by the noble and learned lord.
Lard CA MPBELL proceeded to address their lord-
'hips a second time, but be was received with loud cries
of "order" and "spoke."

Lord ST. LEON ARDS said that, as he had only the
privilege of speaking once, it was hardly fair in Os noble
and learned lord to make two speeches.

Lord CAMPBELL assured their lordships that his
remarks would be strictly in explanation. The noble
earl (Earl Grey), whom it bad given him great satisfac-
tion to hear on this occasion, bad quite misapprehended
him.
Tart GREY—I beg your pardon. I did not allude
at all to anyl Bing you bad said. (Loud

Lord CAMPBELL proceeded to make sowe olz;serva

tine, but the cries of 1‘ spoke" being renewed, he re-
sumed his seat.

Lord CRANWORTH said that, with regard to the
other part.' of the bill to which his motion was supposed
to apply, it was restricted to the first clause and to those
wh•ch depended upon it—in other words to the first
thirteen. (A laugh.) It would he a great loss to the
public if, because their lord-hips did not agree to the
proposal on the su' ject of limitation, they should be
deprived of other parts of the measure. He thought that
some of the i.ubsequent clauses, and especially that which
made it penal to palm off a bad title, would he of great
benefit to the commutkity. - •

Lord REDESDALg was prepared to support the
clauses of hie noble friend, in order that they might be
referred to the select cvmrnittee.

Lord ST. LEONARDSwanted their lordships to
affirm the principle i f sltering the time of the limitation ;
after that he should be quite willing to refer the amount
of the alteration to the select committee.
The Earl of DERBY said the question appeared
rather to be at what point the period of the limitation
should commence ; and with the greatest deference to
his noble and learned friend, he should say that the
starting point ought in jus-ice to be the period at which
the ri,ht of the successor accrued. He should, there-
fore, be very reluctantly compelled to vote against his
noble friend's clause.
A division was then called ; but Lord St. Leonardo
consented to strike out the clause.
The twelve clauces f, lowing were also omitted.
LAW OF PROPERTY AMENDMENT BILL.
On the cootkn of L rd ST. LEONABDS the order for
the committal of this b:11 was discharged.
Their lordships rose at a quarter before seven.

OUSE OF CONIMONS.
—(_ESTEADAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.
The Right Hon. STUART WORTLEY took the oaths and
iiis.seat for Buteshire.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
—Dundalk and Enniskillen Railway, Midland Great
Western Railway of Ireland.
The Middlesborough Water Bill was read a second
time.

THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA.
Mr. TURNER presented the petition agreed to by
the Manchester Chamber of Commerce relative to the
two India Bill.' now before Parliament.
TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION BETWEEN

CORFU AND ALEXANDRIA.
Mr. CRAWFORD gave notice that he should to-
morrow put a q.iestion to the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer with reference to the estabiiAment of telegra-
phic communication between Corfu and Alexandria.
(Rear, bear.)

THE WESTERN BANK OF SCOTLAND.
Mr. BRADY gave notice that on Friday text he
should clll the attention of the house to the circum-
stances connected with the failure of the Western Bank
of Scotland.

THE CA.GLIART.
Mr. HEADLAM askel the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer when the opinion of the law officers cf the Crown
relative to the Cagliari would be laid before the houoe ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that, in con,equeace of the receipt of very important
papers on Saturday in reference to the question, he way
unable then to give the information required. The
papers bad been submitted to the law officers of the
Crown, and be hoped to be able in a day or two to give
the requi•ite information.
THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

the Chancellor of the Exchequer, before the Easter re-
cess, asked for leave to introduce a bill to provide for
the future government of India, by transferring the go-
vernment to her Majesty. At that time I did not thick
it would be respectful to the right hon. gentleman, to the
government, or to the house, for me to state any very
decided opinion on the bill. It has since been publicly
canvassed, and a great many objections made to it.
(Rear.) These objections are very generally felt, and I
confess they appear to me to be sound, and I t!.inlo that
the opinion expresee i by the hon. member for Rrneing-
barn (Mr. Bright) when the bill was introduced, was
founded on substantial reason. I cannot but conceive,
sir, that if this bill is now to be brought forward for a
second reading, if all these objections are to be met, and
if every portion of the measure is to be sifte i, it will give
rise to a most extensive discussion, and a discussion
which must be affected by party feelings most injurious
to the settlement of the question. Sir, a most consider-
able question in itself is the question of the government
of India ; it is one not only of the deepest interest, but
it is one in which we tread on ashes which hardly cover
smouldering fire. This being so, I think it most desirable
that there should be some mode adopted by which the
house might arrive at a conclusion as to its opinion on
the future government of India, without a debate of the
character to which I have just referred, and without
discussing the parts of the measure which are likely to
meet with objection. Sir, on referring to what took
pace on former occasions I find that the first great
change since 1784 was that of 1813, by which the East
India Company was deprived of its monopoly, and a sys-
tem of monopoly and restriction changed into one of free
trade. On that occasion Lord Castlereagh introduced into
this house, in committee of the whole house, a smite of re-
solutions on which a bill was to be founded. Lord Liver-
pool, in the other house stated such a course had this ad-
vantage that all the main principles could be placed under
separate heads, and these heads fully and completely
discussed, the resolutions would then be submitted to the '
House of Lords, and after the two houses had agreed to
saidbeirlalbwleondlidscbuessiiuotnrodauteetdh.e
tTimneis,
course
the ig enienrvaol pv
ed r n cai pc! eosn,
but after the resolutions were once agreed to there was
very little discussion on the bill, and it passed that ses-
sion. Now, sir, there are three ways in which people
view this question. Some wish to reconstitute under
another name the East India Directorate, and would
give the power of initiating to another body—they would
change the name but retain the substance ; another plan
is that on which was founded the pi inciple of the bill
introduced by my noble friend the late head of the Go-
vernment, viz., a minister of the crown with a coencil ;
a third plan is that brought before the house to-night by
the petition from Manchester, that there should be a
secretary of state with subordinate officers, similar to the
other secretaries. Ido not now wish to discuss the
merits of any one of these plans ; but I do think that
if a few resolutions were discussed in a committee of the
whole house we should be enabled to ascertain the opi-
nion of the house, whether it would wish to retain in
fact or in name the Emit India Company ; whether it
would wish to have a council, and if a council, how far
it was to be independent and bow nominated ; or a secre-
tary of state without any council. There are some other
points, but not many of great importance, whether the
government in India itself is to be left in nearly the same
state. It seems to me it would be most convenient it
the government thinks that such a course should he
adopted. It may lead to some loss of time at first, but it
will be a gain of time in the end if we consider those re-
silutions. if the government do not think fit to adopt
this course, I know it would be very presumptuous in
any individual member of Parliament to propose resolu-
tions ; but at the same time I feel so strongly the incon-
venience which must ensue from discussing toe most im-
portant alterations in committee on the bill, I cannot but
state that it appears to me the only way to evade this
evil and obtain a discussion in the house free from party
feelings, would be to pace before the house, in the
form of resolution'', the chief points to be decided. I
must say we would be placed in great difficulty in dis-
cussing in committee points el substantial importance,
mixed op with points of inferior and subordinate import-
ance, and with the particular wording of every clause
which was intended to carry the law into effect. Ido
not know what the G ivernnient may think of this sug-
gestion, but I could not forbear from suggesting this
c surse to.the house ; it appeared to me so loug ago as
last December that this was the course which ought to
be adopted. Neither of the plans which have been pro-
posed may be acceptable to the house without alteration,
and I therefore venture to make this suggestion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Sir,
the preposition which the noble lord has just made, it
must be obvious to every hon. meraber, is one which
would afford a most convenient mode of dealing with
the question of the Government of India. A different I
course has been adopted by the Administration, but I
am quite ready to admit that the course now suggested
is better adapted for the convenient discussion of this
great measure. (Hear, bear.) I am also, sir, free to
admit that during the recess her Majesty's Government
have had this subject under their consideration, and
were not insensible to the convenience of such a course.

The house will, however, rscillect that in the first at-
tempt at legislation on this subject, the noble lord the
member for Tiverton proceeded by way of bill ; that
course was sanctioned by the house so far as psrmitting
the bill to be introduced. There was a general feeling
in the house that no unnecessary delay should take
place on the subject of legislation f it ludia. The pre-
sent administration adopted the same course, and
• brought in a bill. The two bills are now in precisely
the same situation in the house. The principle of
neither has been adopted, but permission has been
granted for their introduction, and both have been read
a first time. No doubt, sir, if we had originally pro-
ce:ded by resolution, the discussion would have been
attended with much advantage, the task of tegis'ation
would have been facilitated, and there would have been
no great delay in the long run ; at pre,ent it is im-
possible not to be sensible that we have a pro-
spect of a lenethened and animated discussion, if not of
a party struggle, arid not that prospect which the coun-
try would look to for a satisfactory settlement of the
question. I should certainly have felt great difficulty,
after having myself proposed the bill, in asking the house
to consider these resolutions, but as the noble lord has
, raised the question, I shall not shrink from the task ;
at
the name time, as the noble lord has introduced this mat-
ter, I am sure every gentleman must f ,el that the reso-
lutions could not be in better hands than his. It the house,
therefore, should consider it expedient that this course
shall be adopted, instead of coming to a single vote and
idiscussion on so many and such various (peed, ng, we
shall have an opportunity of proceeding by resolution in
a committee .f the whole house, and obtaining their opi-
nione after full discussion. On the part of the Govern-
ment there will be no objection to such a course. Tt e
house will feel that if we are to adopt this course, there
should be no unnecessary delay in doing so. The two
bills are now in precisely the same state; but if we are
to decide in a committee of the whole house what are to
be the principles on which the future government cf
India is to bo framed, we should proceed without any
unnecessary delay to discuss them, whether the task a
introducing them falls to me (it it does I will not shrink
from the tact) or whether they are to be prop, sed by
the noble lord isho has suggested this course. No one
possesses more authority in this house than the noble
lard ; no one has earned it by greater efforts, or more
richly deserved it. I must say, it would be most agree-
able to myself that the nob'e lard should propose these
resolutions—(a laugh)--but I do not shrink from the re-
sponsibility of doing so. (Hear, hear ) On one peint we
are all agreed • that there should be no unnece:sary de-
lay—and that the earliest day consistent with the pub-
lic service should be fixed for the diactmian. If the
noble lord consents to propose these resolutions, it will
be our duty to facilitate him in bringing them forward.
It is of the greatest importance that the financial
statement should be made as soon as possible ; I
have fixed it for this day week ; but if the Friday
after, or that day week, will be convenient for the
noble lord, I have no objection. I trust, however, he
will allow the house to see the resolution before that.
Sir, I shall look with interest to the discussion. I believe
the course recommended by the not le lord is one which
will conduce to the public interest. (Hear.) We shall
have an opportunity of giving a tor mai ai.d mature opi-
nion on many points with regard to which I cannot but
feel there is a great misconception in the puulic mind as
to the effect of the proposal made by the present Go-
vernment. It is ino a desirable that we eheuld have an
ample and complete discussion on all the points involved
in the transfer of the government of India from the com-
pany to her Majedy, as to the character of the officer at
home to be entrusted with that office, as to the question
whether there should be a council or net, or if there is a
council what ale to be its materials, wt ether it is to be
partly elective, what is the mode of procedure it should
a.i.opt. If we adopt the course suggested by the noble
lord, not only will the great questi,m of the government
of India be amply and completely discussed in this house,
with all the advantage to be derived from the knowledge
and experience which many of our members possess,
but it will be discussed in a spirit totally devoid of any
party feeling, and we shall arrive at a conclusion which
will be satisfanory to the country, and which will tend
to promote the safety, honour, and welfare of our sove-
reign and her dominions.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I should explain that when I
stated teat I should be ready, although it might be con-
sidered great presumption, to propose a resolution of this
subject, it was on the supposition that the Government
might altogether decline to take that course ; but now
that the right hon. gentleman has said that he does not
shrink from it, I must say that it is a question which be-
-1 ings properly to the Government. (Hear, hear, from
the opposition.)
Sir C. WOOD said he was very glad to hear the last
few words of his noble friend, having risen at the same
time as his noble friend to express his utter astonish-
ment that, however able his noble friend might Is, or
however competent he might be, to deal with any question
which might be brought before tt.e house, a question
of that kind should he cuff. red to fall into the hands of a
private member-- (Opposition cheers) —at d net lbe
brought f irward on the authority and re-ponsibility of
Government (Cheers.) He did not concur in the notion
which had been prevalent of late, that the Governnont
of the day should be called upon to undertake legislation
upon all kinds of petty and minor nut jests ; but every
one must admit that questions of primary importance
ought to be dealt with by Government, and never had
there been a question of greater impoitance than that
which related to the future administretion of It dia. He
was surprised that upon such a question the Cl ancelle.r
of dee Exchequer could have even indicated tee poesitns-
lity of the Government abdicatiug its functious. tebro"d'L?
He had endeavoured at all times to avoid
Indian
t
lain topics,
tion of party questions in connection
and wishing to pursue the same
courseihis opinion of
with
hon the present
occasion—lie would net yet even intimate
the bill proposed by the Government; but he must hay—

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU ER said it-1
was of the utmost importance that no unnecessary
delay should take place in making the financial
statement. (Heal', hear.) At Pi cent the only
votes taken were on account, and he was afraid
votesoa account io supply were hardly sufficient for going
into a committee of ways and means. If his right hon.
friend made progress to-night and Friday with re-
gard to the great. services he should propose to
make the financ"l , statement on this day
week. He had fixed tne second reading of the East
India Government Bill for Monday ntxt, but if he made
the financial statement on that day be should take
care to provide for the second reading of the East India
Bill on the earliest day possible. (Rear, hear.)
_ _

BANDS OF REGIMENTS.
Mr. LAURIE asked the Secretary for War whether
some arrangements might not be made to relieve officers
of the army from the expense c f maintaining the bands
of their several regiment'?
General PEEL said he intended to bring the subject
under the consideration of the Government. He con-
sidered it a grievance that regimental officers should be
taxed for maintaining those bands. His Royal High-
ness the commander-in chief was ai.:%ions to reduce regi-
mentaland he (Uem. Peel) should be
officers' expensep,
happy to assist him. (Hear, hear.)
SCOT risll uNivEßsiry REFORM.
Colonel SYKES asked the Lord Advocate when the
Report of the Committee on the Aberdeen Universi.
ties would be laid upon the table of the house ; whether
he had a bill upon the subject in preparation ; and whe-
ther he intended to bring in any general measure on the
subject of Scottish University Reform
The LORD-ADVOCATE said be was engaged in
preparing a measure relative to Scottish University
Reform. The report of the committee on the Aberdeen
University Bill had not been received.
OF INDIA.
THE GOVERNMENT

On bringing up the report of the committee of supply,
Lord J. RUSSELL said—l rise, sir, with consi-
derable doubt and hesitation to address the house on a
eubjt ot of the deepest interest. The right hon. gentleman

-
and be did not believe there were five gentlemen in the waste of time. The house woeld have to go thers..ice over
house who differed from him on that print—that this the same matter, the decision of each case depending
was a question which could only be brought forward by up ,n the accidental presence of members at t he time of
Government, and if they were willing to abdicate their the discussion. Not only would it be a loss of time, but
functions as a Government the house ve old not permit it would not follow •necessarily that the details' affirmed
them so to do. (Opposition cheers.) He could not see in the resolutions would afterwards, when they *stole to
any advantage in proceeding by way of resolution. His be shaped into clauses in the bill, equally meet with the
noble friend (Lord J. Russell) had quoted the precedent approbation of the house. (Hear, heir.) Sir, I resselly
of 1813. He (Sir C. Wood) did not think it applied to think that, in deference to the ordinary course of pro-
the present case. In 1813 there were a great many ques- ceeding and rules of the house, and with a view to -the
tione raised which bad long since been put to sleep, and convenience ~ f Parliament, as the house has before it
' which were cf a very difficult nature—questions which two bills containing all the details which those who pro-
referred to trade and navigation, and which roust neces- posed them thought adapted to the case, we should pro-
fierily have come before a committee of the whole house. ceed to the discussion of the bills so framed. If we went
On that occasion, it his memory were correct, Lord Care into a committee of the a hole house we should have to
tlereagh moved 14 resolutions. One resolution referred discuss each clause in the form of a resolution, and it
ito the government of India, another to the trade with appears to me that at the same time that we should' be
India, athird to trade with China, a fourth to the powers establishing en inconvenient precedent, it would be a
of the Governor. General in Council. In fact, there were mere waste of time to pets resolutions which somebody
14 different subjects comprised in . the 14 resolutions. scenic; afterwards have to shape in such a way that they
That was not the case now. None of these questions could pass.
of trade and navigation were now before the house Tee CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER—Sir,
nor was it proposed to bring them before the house let me say, in explanation, that the right hon. g• ntle,
either in the bill of tbe late or in that of the present Go- man the member for Halifax certainly misunderstood the
vernment (Hear.) Still more, as it seemed to him, did expressions which I used, if he supposed that there was
the present case differ from that of 1813, much of the any wish on my part to abdicate the functions of the
matter that entered into the bill of that year being government either on this or on any other subject. But
omitted in the bills now before the house. The oily I baying been the organ cf the government in intro-
topic to be considered at present was the home govern- ‘ (lacing a hill re'ating to the governmect of India, and
ment of India, in what manner that government should the nob(- lord (Lord John Russell) having risen in his
be constituted, and upon that tutisct there seemed to place, and expressed his intention of proposing resole-
bim to be no practical difference of opinion. The main tions, I thought, and on reflection I cannot but feel that
question raised was whether the government of India I was right, that I should have been guilty of the ut.
should in future he exsrcised in the name of the Queen, meet arrogance if I bad not at once said what I did.
and upon that print they were all agreed. The late I think that had I taken any other course I should have
Government was supported in its proposition to that acted in a manner which would have been inconsistent
effect by a large majority, and the present Government with the forms of the house, and indeed with the con-
had made a similar proposal. He did, not, therefore, duct of a gentleman. At prevent I can only say that
see how legislation could be advanced by proceeding be I undertake tbe responsibility which is thrown on the
way of resolution. Unless the Government had changed government, I will place the resolutions on the table
their minds as to the best mode of forming a gevernnirnt of the house early enough to give the house ample time
' for India—unless they now thought that the proposal to censider them before it proceeds to the discussion,
which they had made was not a good one and ought to and I propose that this day fortnight those resolutions
be abandoned, he did not see how they could propose should be moved herrn this table.
resolutions upon which to found a bill. Such a course Mr. BOUVERIE said he really thought the bense
would be a mere waste of time, unless the Government and the country should understand what had become of
had changed their minds and wished for a decent excuse the government bill. (Opposition cheers.) Was there to
for withdrawing their bill. (Cheers ) be a third India B it, and was it to be different from or
Mr. ELLICE, sea., considered it was the duty of the similar to the second bill ! The right Lon. gentleman
Executive Government to bring forward resolutions as seemed very anxious to get rid of the Government bill
proposed. He also considered legislating on this subject by a side wind, having jumped with the greatest glee at
would rather be retarded than furthered by the course the proposition of the noble lord that they should pro-
proposed,
ceed by resolution. He could not recollect an instance
Mr. WALPOLE said be had risen in consequence cf intwhich any Government, whether weak or strong, had
the observations of the right hon. gentlemen opposite proposed a bill having a particular object, and when thet
(Sir C. Wood), seconded by those of the right hon. gen blt stood in the orders for discussion had 'laid ten the
Cornett who had just sat down. He thought both those table resolutiong involving the same points. This ap-
' right hon. gentlemen bad tnistaken the purport and in- peered to him a complete abdication of the functions of
telethon of his right bon. friend's (the Chancellor of the the Government ; and whatever might be the opinion of
Excliequeee) remarks intimating his willingness to ac- that house, the public at large would be utterly at a lees
cede to the kindly proposal e f the noble lord (Lord J. to under aand the course pursued by tbe right bon.
Russell). In point of fact his right hon. friend said die- gentleman.
tinctly that he did not shrink from the responsibility, and Sir B. HALL said he wished, before the house pro-
he believed he did not intend to shrink from the respon- seeded with the discussion, to put a question to the right
sibility—(Opposition cheers)—which properly belonged hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It
to the executive Government, of proposing to the house would be in the recollection of the house that the right
arty measures which might be ceded for with reference hon. gentleman, on being asked by the noble lord the
to as large and important a question as that of the go- member for the city of L rndon, before the recess, worn
vernment of cur empire in India. What his right hoe. he proposed to take the second reading of the India Bill,
fiend did say was this, that the house was in possession first mentioned Friday, the 16th, whereupon the noble
of two bills, one introduced by the late, and the other lord proposed that it should be taken on Monday, the
by the present administration ; teat the house being in 19th, and the right hon. gentleman acquiesced. It was
possession of those two bi;l', it would not become him, not f r him (Sir B. Hal') to inquire into the reasons
as the organ cf the Government in that house, to aban- which induced the Government to postpone the conside-
don the proposition which he himself had made to the ration of their measure; but as the right hon. gentleman
house, unless he found, agreeably to his own opinion, bad pat the question on an entirely different footing, and
the house preferred, having regard to the discussion of stated that he intended to propose resolutions upon which
the question, that they should go into a committee of the a measure would be founded far the future government
whole house. Now, he quite agreed with his right hon. of India, he thought he had a fair right to ask, and the
' friend, that when it was intended to embrace in one house bad a right to know, whether the right hon. gen-
measure certain great and comprehensive principles, it tleraan intended to abandon the bill, or meant to proceed
was advisable—and that was the ground taken by Lord to the second reading, or whether he intended to found
Liverpool in 1818—that those priecit les should be can- on the resolutions some new measure for the government
vassed, discussed, deliberated upon, and, if possible, de- of India ! (Hear.)
tided upon in the first instance, so that when the house Mr. HORSNIAN said it was evident that the house
came to deal we h the measure the main principles would was in a great difficulty, and he feared this was only the
have been settled. There was this advantage in that beginning of d;fficultiee, which would accumulate as
mode of proceeding, that the house would under its f wine they proceeded with the consideration of the suitect.
have an opportunity of ventilating the question in every (Hear.) When they first beard of the disturbances in
possible point of view, instead of discussing on the second India there were two feelings which succeeded each other
reading a bill which might involve more principles than in the minds of the people of this country. The first
one, and might be supported or opposed on more groun's testing was that the double government of India must be
than one. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman got rid ef ; the second wa-, that it would not be easy to
epporite (Sir C. Wood), that the precedent of 1813 was find a substitute for it. Now, two efforts had been
founded partly on the notion that trade was involved. made to provide a substitute ; they had Wire them
Looking to what fell from the noble lord opposite, he two bills emanating from the highest sources, and the
thought the house ha i intimated unmistakeably by its only distinct impression made upon his mind was an
cheers, that it thought some proposition should be made impression of the it hermit difficulty of the question,
which would enable them to discuss and decide upon and how much any measure must be dependent upon
' this important question with as little reference as peril- the forbeorance and the aid of Parliament and the
ble to party— (hear) —but be was sure his right hon. country for a successful issue. They had been told by
friend eid riot intend to convey that the Government his right hon. friend the member for Coventry (Ma
wi.hed to abdicate th_ir functions—functions which they Edice) that the course recommended by the noble lord
would endeavour to discharge with satisfaction to the the member fur London was unprecedented. Ile was
house, with satisfaction to the Queen who bad called afraid that 'he whole course adopted in reference to this
upon them to serve her, and with satisfaction to the subject was unprecedented. They celled theinselvesa prac•
country whose welfare it was their desire to promote. field people, and yet they had in this instance departed
Mr. MANGLES hoped the house would allow hen to from the invariable course of proceeding in such cases
offer a very few observations with regard to an r xpres- a' the present. The role hitherto observed was, first to
sion which fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. suppress the disturbances, Lest to ir:quire into the mires
Tte right hon. gentleman said it was probable that Patty oft hem, and then, having a certained the causes, to pro-
spirit would prevail in the debates on this subject. Now ceed by legislation and other means to supply a remedy.
he entreated the house, with all humility and deference, In the present case, instead of a 'opting. this business.
but with the utmost earnestness which he was capable of, like course, recommended alike by unvarying precedent
not to allow any such feeling to enter into the discussion and by common sense, they Lad Prot eded to frame it
of that momentous question. The greatest authorities new government for an empire in whirs i their rule had
on Indian subjects, amongst whom he might especialy yet to be re-established, and to take legislative precau-
mention his lamented friend the late Lord Metcalfe, had tions against the recurrence cf evils which they did not
express. dit as their opinion that India would be placed yet even pretend to understand. (Hear.) There was
in extreme jeopardy by the introduction of party spirit another respect in which the course pursued was without
in legislation for her ; and he believed every man who precedent. Lie great change was proposed without any
was acquainted with India would coiccide in that view. preliminary inquiry, a C'.1.1r3`3 for which, he restored to
(Hear.) It wa-, of course not to be expected that the say,fthe oldest member of that house could not cite a pre-
tbe Court of Directors, representieg the East India cedeet. As regarded India, it was the maximum of
Company, should acquiesce cheerfully in a mea-ure change with the minimum of notice or inquiry. Four
which would abolish their functions, believing, as they years ago there was a very long inquiry with regard to
did, that their administration of Indian affairs bad been the renewal of the East India Company's cbarter, and
beneficent, honourable to themselves, a d aevaseirgeone what wes the result! Why, it was virtually the strongest
to the country ; t.ut he wou'd ray for himse f and foe condemnation of tiee course now pursued. The witnesses
the gentlemen with whom he was associated, that as consisted of the highest authorities in reference to Ind:a,
soon as it sbouldbe determined by the will of Perlin- every one of whom declared that the existing govern-
ment to place India under the direct administration of ment of India was the best that could be devised. The
the Crown, they would, without any reference to Government of the day also coincided in that opinion, .
party, give their best assistance in carrying out any and the corcurrence cf the house was recorded in the
measure which that house might in its wisdom think statute book of the year. Thai, committee might have
the best fitted for the government of the countrel been mistaken ; its report might bave been mere waste
11 (Cheers.) It bad always been the pride and the b, ast, paper, but merely for the sake of the house and fsr its
of tha C ;eft of Directors that, whatever might be the consistency, it would have !been well to have adopted'
individual sentiments of its members, as a body they had some pre'inainary i. quiry before proceeding. But as the
no politics, as a body they had kept themselves free from house had determined that this was a proper time for
any party associations. He was sure that would be the legislating, he should not have ventured to make them*
case now, and ho earnestly entreated the house to act in observations but for the position in which this matter
a similar spirit. In such a case as th,s, it would be an was now placed. There were two bias before them, and
eternal disgrace to them to suffsr any party considers- they might vote for the second reading of both, for tbey
tions to influence them with regard to any proposal were both founded on the same principle. Or th'y might
which might be made, from whichever side of the house
it might proceed. as a party vote, carry one against the other. Or they
might permit the present government of India to go on
Mr. AYRTON expressed his surprise at the course
about to be pursued. Having an objection to the bill, eitbout interruption. He agreed with his noble friend
he had that evening given notice of a motion, for the ' (Lord Palmerston) that there were inconveniences in post-
poning a measure for one year. That inconvenience vrae,
second reading that day six months, for which it was however, but the inconvenience of a year, whilst the ins
set down fur second reading. It now appeared that the convenience arising from a faul4 or mistaken measure
bill was to be withdrawn, and the house proceed on tie
resolutions. He could not see the wisdom of such a ,was an inconvenience which would last through all tune.
F .elin, therefore, that neither bill was satisfactory and
course, and he thought both bills should be disposed of having tefore him a prospect a which he bolted with
by the house on their merits. great dread— viz., that this measure should be discussed
Lord PALMERSTON—I entirely concur with my at a party question—be thought that the proposition of
hon. friend the member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles),
' his neble friend the member for the city of London tbat
! the house as to %she-
to be made a party question between the two sides of the
then there should be a council, and as to what should be
house. This i- far too important a matter to be made the 1 its constitution, was one which ought to receive the sup-
shuttlecock of pal ty—(hear, hear)—and I, for my part, port of the house. He tbought, indeed, that in a case of
am perfectly prepared and desirous to discuss any ar- so much difficulty and of se great an importance, that
rangement whatever that may be submitted to the consi- the house was under an obligation to his noble friend
deration of this hon-e upon its own merits, and with a (Lord J. Russell) for the suggestion which he bad made.
due regard to the national Importance of the subject. Sir B. HALL hoped that the right hon. gentleman
(Hear, hear.) Sir, lam so deeply impressed with the ins- (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would answer his
portanoe of the arrangements you are going to establish question—was it his intention to proceed with or to
for the government of India that, although I think the abandon his bill upon this subject 1
government should be transferred from the East India The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I have
C rmpany to the Crown, still I should prefer things being already trespassed on the attention of the house but with
left as they are to the passing of a bill which would be its permission—(h.ar, hear)—l will reply to the question
objectionable in its provisions, because we know the ut- of the hon. baronet. It is my intention at present, as I
most inconvenience which can arise from deferring legit- think it is the gent ral wish of tbe house that I should
lotion to another year, while wecannot equally anticipate dose, to prop ise these resolutions. (Hear.) I shall pro-
the evils a Mal rosy result from a bad organisation of the pose them on this day fortnight. It certainly never en-
future eovernment of India. (hear, Lear.) I shsll not now feted into my imagination to give up the bill I had the
express the opinion which I entertain with regard to the honour of introducing. I have a lively conviction that
r s bill which the present Government propose. But with the result of discussing these resolu'io will be to effecth
respect to the preference which it is said should be given such a chanee in the general view of the house that the
to the mode of proceeding by resolution, I would beg to bill which t had the honour of intrcducing, and whichese
submit to the consideration of the house that that mode of
by the
proceeding is inapplicable t ) the present state of things,
resolutions, will in its general scope be adopted
will remain upon the paper until we have decided h
and would be a departure from the ordinary practice of
this house. There are certain matters, with regard to trade
thel
ultimately
and so on, in reference to which the rules of the house those resolutions will bring to light,
will
be-
require tbat before a bill is introduced the house should unitedtwuse ea: pd e' r i modifiedence ot tlineo Housedo abt
whichi a samel
degree discussion
come the law of this country.
agree, by resolutions adopted in a committee of the whole The sulsject then dropped,
house, to the fundamental principles on which the
mittee was agreed to. eearre'port of the mem-
proposed measure should rest. But those rules are
SUPPLY- THE- ARMY AN AVY ESTIMATES.
limited to a certain description of eutejectr, and I appre-
On the motion for going Nathinittee of supply,
bend that the subject of the government of India, as ibis
and navy, which
now presented to us, does not fall within the scope of
those rule., and that, consequently, we are not obliged
were several millions hea
It
t 13
Mr. WILLIAMS took that opportunity of calling atten.
•
mr
eaftetreitieeagntdhteoedeetivini seat
eaer
vit was the duty of the House of
to pay any regard to the regulations under which this
submitted to that 0
etoulaedsYe:
house proceeds by resolution in preference to a bill. If tion to the present estirnat?sinrt.°T.aaDntind:any
which
had
yet
been
that were the case, the last Government and the present This could
.rj.t To show the extravagant amount to which
grown. he would call the attention of
one would have committed a violation of the rules atcl , lea come:A.B had
orders of the house • and as the course adopted by both to wouldgs of former governments in this par-
Commons to llookbeihndteo:teehbisy
He go back to the time when the house was
administrations has been eacctioncel and not found fault tthheeeb:ostruisne
with, I may venture to conclude that there is no Parlia-
uinreformed, when hte;lereas saidi to be a parliament of
i!,t Ltrewvaernd.t then
wished ouch es estimates
aa ti.)res
montary necessity for proceeding in this caee by retold- eoroughr gel', and
tion. Well, then, if the arrangement were eupeeo:rae,_ these d not been brought
centain some principle so important that it was d "re understooda that he did not cast the blame upon the present
that it should be discussed by itself in a committee
ewhich 'if;
chiefly rested.
It
Aet•atshuepsoanmietstipredecessors tnhtaAt tdhmeincbi
eatrrgae.
the whole house, that principle must be thee otie,
oath
_,_,
eeY tion ought not to shelter itself too much upon the plea of
the foundation of both the bills befervnent of India what it found done by those who preceded it in office, but
that of the transference of the goo°yerthe responsible i should endeavour to avoid the course which they had
from the East India Company
ivet principle is, marked out. In referring to former times he would cons-
advisers of the crown.
by the house mence with the Government of the Duke of Wellington
I apprehend admitted, D
nutonly
hear)—iscd I apprehend it before the reform of Parliament. 11e found that the army
but by the country—(hear' from the progress which we and navy estimates of that day were less than the present
would be entirely goirg a by the sum of 6,e50,0001. In the last year of the existence
in n„,tvbsc discuss the question whether
Well,
r. should not be trans- of the unreformed house, under the Government of Earl
have made to beg whould o
then, if the • • the government /Float.) en,
, Grey, the estimates were 7,000,000/, less than the present.
ef
In lees, under the Government of Lord Melbourne, the
hewed to the crown. k
India s
ties in this house and by every per-
both who
difference was 8,200,00 J. in favour of that Government.
is admitted by
has given any attention to the
son in this country
Mould remain as subject matter for reso- Sir .11 Peel and the Duke of
Under the Government of .
hect there 50 Wellington, the army and navy estimates were 8,630,0001.
SU i '
tattoos not besg bepresentay.Under et the details of the bill. Only conceive less than those of the day. the Government
.
hat an inconvenient
ent precedent it would be if it were of Lord J. Russell, in 1852, they were 5,5e0,(001. less, and
w I' hed that when the _ overnment or a private mem- under that of the Earl of Aberdeen, the difference was
• tab us
from
ber wished to introduce a bill, instead of the government 4,360,000/. He should like to have an explanation
ne___.
or the private member taking the trouble so to frame the some member of the late Administration as to the
.f doors
hill that it would contain all the regulations which were sity for this difference.c Aeu
tiede:eprevat d
traced to recent tror.
thought expedient, the house should be called upon to ithates it was
India.in come
et
was, however, not the case. Not
pass the future clauses of the bill in the embryo state of a penny had the Government been Cb"geedeverto oenxt--
resolutions, leaving it to somebody else afterwards to peed on that account--the company 41,4.
ed leer year, throughy
adapt those resolutions so that they would form clauses of lay, and in fast a saving had e
"b;rnr maintained ixt Ic dia.
the bill, Why it would, in the first place, be a elites thenumber of soldiers who were e g