The Sun.
London, England, 1867-04-01 00:00:00

joining a friendly society, or by putting his money

in a building society. (Hear.)
Mr. BEALES said he desired to express his regret
that there should be any feeling in the House of
Commons against the ballot. The League thought
that every vote should be protected by the ballot.
Dr. PERFITT, recurring to the remarks of Mr.
Western, desired to assure Mr. Gladstone that the
opinion of Mr. Western was not the opinion of all
the League, nor of the working classes, with respect

to the ‘:saving men." The "saving man" was gene-
rally respected.

Mr. GLADSTONE said that Mr. Western was cer-
tainly somewhat hard on saving men, but perhaps
he had given utterance to those expressions in what
was called elsewhere oc the heat of debate." (A

laugh.) The reason why this franchise was proposed
in the bill of last year was, it was found that good

lodgers and an increase of good occupiers would be
grounds for two excellent franchises ; and it was
thought that a savings bank clause would operate in
the counties. It was not supposed that it would give
the franchise to many iu the boroughs who had it
not under the other franchises. It was believed there
were industrious men in the counties who would be
enfranchised under such a clause who would not be
enfranchised otherwise, and the principle of selec-
tion was at that time pressed much upon the then
Government. It was to be remembered that that

bill was framed in the spirit of extreme con

ciliation, but he was bound to say that, from
the representations which were made respecting
this clause, he thought from the first that
that particular proposition would not pass, even if
the rest of the bill should be carried. The clause
was but faintly supported, and it was strongly op-
posed. With regard to the general question, he
felt bound to express himself as grateful for the
confidence which the deputation had stated they felt
in him. He was the more grateful because he felt
that this confidence had not been reposed in him on
account of any identity of opinion between them
and himself, but because they knew him as one who
had taken a straightforward course, and meant to
adhere to it like a man. (Cheers.) He thanked
the deputation for the moderation they had shown.
It would be unwise to tie the hands of the Legisla-
lature as to the course which should be adopted
with respect to this bill. It might be the proper
course to press on the measure before the house if it
were capable of amendments, but having spoken in
the same way to a deputation which waited upon
him last week from the London Association of
Working men, an association which, he presumed,
was in harmony with the League, he.need not reite-
rate what he then said upon this question. That
deputation had recognised the necessity for a com-
promise at this important crisis, and it was an es-
sential part of our constitution that it should show
itself capable of such compromise at such a time.
(Hear.) It. was not necessary that he should dwell
upon the particular points in which the views of the
deputation had been laid down, because they knew
his expressed opinions from the observations ho had
elsewhere made. But it bad been said by Mr. Bealcs
that it was understood the bill was to be in the hands
of the House of Commons, that was of the Liberal
party as constituting the majority of the house. Now,
that expression might give the general impression—
and it might be the correct impression—but he did
not think that at the present time they were in a
position to judge as to how far that was precisely true.
(Hear.) There was one point upon which he could
speak. The exceptional proposition, and he would
.go further and say that most outrageous proposition
—he meant the dual voting—(hear, hear)—had
been abandoned. What the intentions of the Go-
vernment were he could not say. From what bad
been said on the part of some members of the Go-
vernment it was thought that the propositions
made in the bill would be adhered to ; but in the
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer a per-
fect freedom had been expressed as to the future
dealing with the bill, but that was the expression
of the Government, and nothing h.-id been said
on the part of the Liberal party as to exacting
this or that. "What he intended to do in order to
clear up what should be the future course he should
take was to ask the Government if alterations
would be made in the bill in accordance with the
views already expressed before it went into co►n-
mieee. (Hear.) lie thought the bill should be
enlarged as far as the Government was inclined to
go, and then, of course, when the house was aware
of the judgment of the Government, it would be
time for the Liberal party to consider what steps
should be taken to give effect to their opinions and
their views. (Hear.) lie thought the deputation
might rely upon it that no inefficient measure of
reform would be passed ; but he would say, and he
was speaking for himself alone, that he would not
be a consenting party to the passing of any effi-
cient measure, or a party to any settlement which
would prevent an efficient measure being obtained.
(Cheers.) As far as the metropolis was concerned
it was perfectly idle to talk of a bill for improving
the representation which imposed unnecessary re-
strictions, or which omitted a lodger franchise.
(Hear.) Now under the term lodgers many views
might be expressed. The lodger franchise he looked
for would do the same for the working men of Lou-
don as a fair household suffrage would do for the
working men of Leeds. The lodgers in London
must comprise highly skilled men, who in a place
like Leeds would be householders, and they should
be enfranchised. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) He did
not think he had any more to say to them. (A.
voice, " How about voting papers, Mr. Gladstone?")
Well, they had been speaking of the bill as far as
it would concern the classes represented by the de-
putation, and that point would not require much
to be said'on his part, but he thought it was a pro-
vision that was not likely to live.
Dr. PERFITT said there was an impression that
the House of Commons intended to fix the rating
franchise, and the deputation would like to hear
that the right hon. gentleman would be no party
to that.

Mr. GLADSTONE said he had already said so
much in the House of Commons upon this point that
he need not repeat his views. People had said to
him, " You should not enter into details," but it
was only by entering into details that views could
be set forth, and this he had done. He might re-
mark that such was the difference of opinion in
the house, that some thought it was only a secondary
matter about their being required to pay their own
rates ; but he saw it in a different light, he saw that
the plan involved two-thirds of those whom the
bill was supposed to enfranchise.
Mr. CREMER said that it had been reported in the
press that a deputation which had waited upon him
(Mr. Gladstone), purporting to be of working men,
had expressed themselves as willing to give up
manhood suffrage if a lodger franchise of 4s. or ss.
a week were given. He should like to know if that
were so, because that deputation was not authorised
to make such a statement, So far from the work-
ing men being contented with such a provision' be
thought the contrary was the fact.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he was not responsible for
the reports in the press, and he could not trust his
memory for the precise terms used. The deputation
were, however, willing to abate from their con-
ceived views of what the working men were en-
titled to.
Mr. CREMER said the deputation referred to did
not represent the working men of London at all.
Mr. CONNOLLY, somewhat warmly, said that
the deputation from the London Working Men's
Association as much represented the London work-
ing men as this deputation represented the people.
There were also other calls upon Mr. Cremer to

be quiet.
Mr. MANTLE pointed out that the skilled work-
men were more likely to be shifted from place to
place by reason of their skill, as their employers
would desire to employ them in different parts, so
that the better a man was, and the more skilful he
was, the more likely he was to be shifted.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he quite saw that, and he
sufureapanpre isi work.ohsesdeit
was important for the skilled man to be
Mr. CONNOLLY further urged that a good lodger
h
was urgently needed, and he said that
would
tells gentlemen connected with the London press
were lodger, mhea pTahreliay
mweanntte It
hrtohuegjhobt
hfien
rightished ,
hon.and
gentleman that there could not bl a settlement of