The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-29 00:00:00

assent given by commission to certain bills, [For which,
see Lords' report.] ._
COLLIERY PROPRIETORS IN THE FOREST
OF DEAN.

Col. KINGSCOTE asked the Secretary to the Trea-
sury whether the decision given by Mr. Howard, upon
the memorial presented to him by the colliery proprietors
in the Forest of Dean, in July, 1857, was founded on the
opinion of •the law officers of the Crown ; and, if not,
whether there would be any objection to take their
opinion
Mr. HAMILTON answered in the negative.
• THE SLAVE SQUADRON.

Mr. M. GIBSON inquired whether it was the inten-
tion of Mr. Hutt to bring on this evening his question
with reference to the slave squadron ?
Mr. HUTT said it was his intention to have brought
the question before the committee this evening, but
understandlng that there was some mininderstanding
amongst gentlemen who took an interest in the subject,
be should defer his motion for the present, and would
bring it under consideration on going into supply on the
slave trade vote.
THE FUNDED DEBT BILL.
On the order for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. WILSON moved the following resolution as an
atuendeuent : "That this house i 3 of opinion that the
extraordinary expenditure incurred during a war, beyond
what is obtained from taxation, should be raised in the
form of ternainab!e loans, the redemption of which should
be provided for within a specified period after the return
cf peace ; or, if with a view to greater economy, it is
raised by loans in the shape of permanent annuities, that
a provision should be made for the liquidation of the
same by moderate annual iastalments after the war ex-
penditure shall have ceased, from surplus revenue to
be provided for that purpose." The honourable gen-
tleman pointed out that the committee of 1828
recommended the course for which his resolution
provided, and an act followed rendering it impe-
rative to raise by ways and means a sum to pay
off a certain.amount of the debt every year. Now the
Government. came down, and did not ask them to post-
pone the motion, but to repeal altogether the act tel the
Legislature. Taking the amount of funded and unfn tided
debt at the commencement and close of the war, be fonnd
that the debt at the close of the war was 25 millions
larger than at the beginning. In looking to this mattor,
it was not his intention to disturb the financial arrange-
ments of the: present year, for he considered the budget
a settled question. All he wanted to do in the motion
he had made was to caution the house against repudiat-
ing the obligations which they had eo recently con-
tracted. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer bad taken a very opposite
view of the operation of the sinking fund from that which
was taken by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir
G. C, Lewis). and which was based upon the recom-
mendations of the .committee of 1828, and in doing so
bad fallen into many of the fallacies which had been too
frequently committed be persons who bad dealt with this
subject. The bon. gentleman quoted Mr. Gonlburo, Mr.
Huskisson, and other Chancellors of the Exchequer, in
support of the view tbat we ought always to have bad a
sufficient sinking fund. The hon. gentleman then entered
into a history of the national debt. He observed that it
Was not, as generally supposed, an ancient institution,
or the means by which we had attained our greatness; it
was of comparatively modern origin. The first small
debt was contracted in 1090, and in 1792 it amounted to
260 millions, the annual charge being 91 millions. In
23 years later it was increa-ed by 500 millions, and the
annual charge by 21 millions. It was Fait' that the
sinking fund was fallacious, but is sixteen years the
debt had been reduced by 54 millions; whereas in the
succeeding thirty yearn Irons 1828 to 1858, it had in-
creased from 800 millions to 808 million?, so that under
the mote specious but less effectual system the debt, in-
stead of being reduced, was increased by eight millions
in time of peace. Instead cf relying- on a fictitious sur-
plus, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had never
been able to repay, they ought to have had a surplus
provided by Act of Perliameet, by which in sixteen
years they bad been able to pay 54 millions ; whereas
now they had gone on thirty years, and found themselves
eight millions further in debt. That was not a very
creditable or satisfactory result. It might be said there
had been additions during tbat period, and so there had.
for the abolition cf slavery, the famine in Ireland, and
the Russian war; but were we t 3 exercise our benevo-
lence and .meet our national duties, without providieg a
means of payment? After all there had only been tv-o
years of war during that period. What eance had they
anything better ? Under the act of 1823 upwards of
27 millions bad been paid off in five years. But we had
this year put off the payments which fell due, and next
year we should have two millions more of bonds, with
one million less to pay i-. We were told that we must
postpone all this to 1860, but if we did so, we should
have seven millions failing due that year, when the in-
come tax would be entirely removed, and the reduction
of the sugar duties would still further diminish the
revenue. No one could believe that those engagements
should then be met, and was it wise that finance Mini-
stein should bold out fallacieue hopes? He believed
that the ham-tie-tax was more unpopular in this house
than elsewhere and that out of doors the majority if the
intelligent portion of the community were of opinion
that the incerne-tax was of all taxes the most inconve-
nient. (Freer, and "No, no.") It was strange that those
tithe were supposed to be most favoured should cry " No,
no," and those on his side of the house, that were
supposed ta represent the sufferers under schedule D,
should cry " Yes, yrs." (Hear.) Ha believed nothing
would b', more easy than fur the Chancellor of the Er.
chequer to have kept on the second, and many would
rather he bad done so than postponed the bonds, (Hear,
hear ) The other day firm hopes were hell out ef re-
rtaliag the paper duties—as bad a tax in principle as
could be—but it was their duty to pay their debts be-
fore they ta;ked of repealing even such a tax. They
were burning the candle at both ends—reducing taxa-
tion and Moreadug the expenditure. In respect to the
succession duties, Ist i:h question was mixed up with tl:e
legacy duty, they hag yielded much less than they ware
estimated to produce. It was said that it was unwise to
tie the hands of parliament, hut we had already done so.
We had incurred liehnities for which parliament west
provide, and it was not for us, to avoid a'l action on our
own part by postponement. We were told it was use-
less to order an annual payment, unless ways and means
were provided. But it was provided. It was as easy
for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to provide ways and
means for a sinking fund, or for the redemption of the
debt, as far the payment of annuities, ite , &c. ; but if
thee ',ere to re.y ❑upon a chance supine at tee end of
tee Jae ede. : -r tnt there reds year ? He feared
rather a deficit. Toe Qnaneeiser te
provide a surplus, bad put on a duty on cheques, but
how could they tell what that would produce ? To make
out a surplus even then, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had taken account of reductions in the Admiralty and
the miscellaneous estimates, but the First Lord of the
Admiralty bad already been obliged to trench on
Lie share of .the caving, and the other was Lund to
be to a great extent fallacious. A great del was
said about the national defences, but no danger we
could incur would be so great as that w'nieb arose
from so grant a burden, and if we were once relieved
from that burden, half the amount would be sufficient
for the defence of the country. If they would com-
pare our condition in 'hie respect with other countries,
we would find that ie France, whose de'er, was tee next
greatest to ours, it only auteunted to 321 mill oaa, being
less than half of ours. But that was because other
nations, including the French, paid off in time , f peace
what they bad incurred in time of war. 'This couniry
had for many years been in an exceediegty ad-
vantageous position. We had the commerce of the
world almost at cur command in consequence of our ilia-
provements in the arts, and we were in a state of un-
exampled prosperity. Bat what security had we that
we bboald maintain ova- relative advantage over other
nations. The French exports had nearly trebled since
1847, anal ours in the same period had deubled. During
a period of national prosperity and peace, the duration
of which we could not estimate, ere ought to reduce
our debt. Ha did cot wish to errabarrase the Govern-
ment in theer arrangements for thin year. lie Vhe
wil-
ling to admit test the bonds were part of the debts of
the war as much as the sinking hind, and :f the right
hon. gentleman admitted the orio&ple of the sinking
fend, he bad rio objection to its beteg postponed till r
the btiorle wen, raid. Let turn adopt one of the alter-
eatieee in hie own budoet, and agree to poetpene the
sinking fund instead ref repealing it, and he (Yin Wilson)
would be satistled.. He oaiy desired that they should
affirm the principle of paying in time of peace the debts
incurred in war. Their policy should de, be every
honourable theane, to wield going to war; when at was
to conduct it with due economy. A eoremittes might
be agreed on next session to can side: the Whole subject
of toe untienal debt.

The CIIA.NCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER said
that the motion of tce hon. member 11:eolveit saveral as-
sertions which appeared to him to be o: a very question-
able character. In the first place, the assertiou that the
expenses cf a war should be raieed by way of termina-
Lle annuity asserted what had been done respecting the
late war. They had terminable loans both in the shape
of antutties and of Exchequer 'Donde, and therefore Ha,
far as that part cf the resolution bore on the future con-
duct of the Gpvernosent he did not think there was any
necessity for the declaration. Anothirr part of the recto=
lotion declared that moderate annual .instalments of sur-
plus revenue should be secured in or ler to pay off the
debts of the war. It was very difficult to know what
the hon. member meant by moderate aneual instalmeute
wring the war it was supposed that one million was a
moderate annual instalment. Another moderate annual
instalment took the shape of 1,250,0001. There was an-
other loan and another moderate instalment of a million
and a half. Theo the Exchequer-bonds came, and the
4unnal instalment required was two and a half
the arrangement for the succeeding year was three
"MI s half millions ; so that it was quite impossible to
ley down any system of annual instalments. For in-
ktiance, it was seldom possible to reduce the war
expen-
dtu re immediately after the war ; or there might be
famine, or some other social dieturbance ; nr you might
have to locresseyour armaments in thus of peace iu con-
sequence of the attitude of other nations,or there might
be domestic insurrection. Alt these thingsb might hap
pen in time of peace, anadutatreitfroarre,
and
dcaaursteiawcie
artificial
were
not at war, to lay down
eye-
tam of surplus would, i
-n Of inion!he an I eceedainiunwise measere. (near, how.
) And what way gje
paricular proposition which the honourable member
placed before them ? He said--
-otuhre years)
meen you pay o your
ou
mean
Exchequer-bonds (which will not be
sad,far in f
then let U 4 institute a sinking fund,
time, let us have a committed of finance to lay down a
general principle." Well, but if they were to have a
committee would it not ba as well to postpone the ar.
renement until they had the report of the committee ?
„Yoe his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) part, he
bought the arrangement proposed by the hop, member
*artificial one, tbat it would never work, and that the
9b1.74011ud principlegoUr reducing the debt was that con-
tained In the act of Q eo. IV., and under wbicb, although