The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-06 00:00:00

IttE SUN,`,: LONDON, 'TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 6, 1860.

he implored the house not to let it appear that it preferred
a party embarrassment—a party victory if it might be—or
the peril of breaking up the friendly relations between this
country and France, to the acceptance of that great treaty,
on which the people of England believed their future com-
mercial interests to a very considerable extent depended.
(Hear.) He had not risen to defend th 3 Government, but
when a question of this sort was made a ground of attack
from night to night, he believed he placed !these attacks
imperilling peace with France, and therefore with Europe,
on the real ground when he stated that they were made for
a party object, for which a great party ought to be ashamed.

- -
then ? . During the Italian war and after it the Emperor of
the French did all he could to make friends with the despots

of Empe, and all he could to throw off the English alliance.
(Hear, hear, and oh !) Why do I say that ? I take the ex-
pression of opinion in the press of France to be the expres-
sion of the Emperor's opinions. (Hear, hear.) Having felled
to win the friendship of the despots of Europe, he fell back
upon his old ally, and then he silenced by one blow the press
of France. (Oh, and cheers.) Is that not true ? (Hear.)
Did he not issus his fat, and did not till the insolence and
all the impertinence against England at once cease ? (Oh,
and cheers.) I have faith in the English House of Com-
mons, although some may be base enough to truckle to an
Emperor—(hear, hear)—and I am sure this House of Com-
mons will maintain the character, the dignity, and the hon-
, our of England. (Cheers.) To go back to what I was say-
ing :—the Emperor of the French turned round, and again
cultivated the friendship of his old ally. We were sworn
friends again, but I can't forget what that phase of that
man's life disclosed. (" Question I" and cheers.) You may
not like what I say, but I am sure it is the question for us
to consider. I say, what are we to do ? Are we at once,
and without consideration, to accede to this treaty ? I am
most anxious at once to close with this treaty of commerce
if we can. (Hear.) But I would not close with it in such a
way as to appear to sanction the proceedings of the Emperor
of the French in the annexation of Savoy. (Hear.) There-
fore, I say the consideration of this question ought to be de.
ferred until the house has had an opportunity of declaring
its opinion as to the annexation of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) I
am quite sure a large majority of the house would at once
adopt the language of the noble lord the member for Lon-
don, and declare itself hostile to that annexation. And here
I must say, if the noble lord will permit me, that I think
the honour of England is quite safe in his hands—that
his language has been in accordance with the views of
the people, and that nothing could be better than the man-
ner in which ho has declared his honest feelings upon this
matter. (Hear, hear.) I call upon the House of Commons
to say what the noble lord has said, and to declare its opi-
nion upon this matter before we say that we are willing
to enter into a treaty of commerce between the two
nations. I only ask the house to do that, and that
when it .has declared the annexation of Savoy to be
against the honour and dignity of England to say to
France, " If you will enter into negotiations, we wish
to have peace and content between the two countries, and
we will even sacrifice oar feelings to gain that end. (Hear,

(Cheers.)
Mr. LIDDELL said the hon. gentlemen on his side of
the house were not prepared-to regard the annexation of
Savoy with a pusillanimous indifference. (Hear, hear.) It
was very convenient for the hon. member (Mr. Bright) to
evade the main point of this question, but the fact was
that England stood pledged to maintain the independence
of Switzerland, and that independence was seriously endan-
gered by the proposed annexation. (Hoar, hear.) With re-
spect to the treaty, he hoped the hon. member for Sunder-
land (Mr. Lindsay) would not accept the courteous offer of
the noble Premier. The hon. member had long since given
notice of an amendment upon the third article of the treaty ;
and if the noble lord's proposal were accepted, the House
of Commons might find itself in the position of the man.
who locked the stable door when the steed was gone.

. _
(Hear, and a laugh.) They wished to urge the Government
to press upon France the impolicy of continuing those un-
just restrictions in favour of French shipping provided for
in the third article ; but their chances of success would be
very much lessened if the amendment were deferred as the
noble lord desired. (Hear.)

Mr. WHITESIDE—The hon. member (Mr. Bright) has
imputed to gentlemen on this side of the House that for a
party object they are desirous of catching at this question of
Savoy in order to expel the Ministry from their places.
Now, I think he will see upon reflection that that imputa-
tion is not one which he ought to have made. (Hear, hear.)
Has this difficulty been created by any act of those around
me ? By no means. The person who jeopardises the peace
of Europe is he who does not respect the faith of treaties—
who says thatgeographically he is entitled to one country,a.nd
that logically he is entitled to another. (Hear.) That is
the argument in reference to Savoy and Nice. Does any
imputation rest on the Foreign Secretary ? No. I have
only looked into these despatches; but as far as I have read
them I think that they reflect honour upon the noble lord,
and that he has asserted the interests of peace, the interests
of his country, and the interests of Europe. (Cheers.)
But our object is, in accordance with the noble
lord's own speech the other evening, to strengthen the
hands of the Ministry by expressing clearly and distinctly
the opinion of Parliament, not as the hon. member (Mr.
Bright) supposes, upon the internal affairs of France, but
upon an intended encroachment by one Power on the terri-
tories of another country, guaranteed to that other country
by the faith of treaties. (Hear, hear.) The effect of such
an expression of opinion by Parliament, as I ,believe,
will
be not to create war, but to prevent it ; and the hon. gen-
tleman wholly mistook what my hon. friend said, because
when he expressed a hope that Parliament would protest
against annexation, the hon. gentleman should recollect
that a protest is not a war, but a substitute for war. (Hear,
hear.) For exsmple, when the French army marched into
Switzerland Lord Malmesbury protested, but we did not go
to war. And I venture to say that if a distinct and manly
protest be made by England and the other great Powers of
Europe against this attempt to violate the treaties which
guarantee the peace of Europe, that protest will be attended
with better results than even the manful despatches of the
Foreign Secretary. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member (Mr.
Bright) was therefore rash in his imputation upon my hon.
friend and the gentlemen near me, who are desirous to
maintain peace, but at the same time desire to preserve
the faith of treaties and the honour of their country.
(Cheers.)
M. B. OSBORNE—I will not attempt to impugn the
motives of the hon. member (Mr. S. Fitzgerald). His mo-
tives may be pure and honourable, but I do take upon myself
to question the discretion of his speech. (Hear.)
.When an
hon. gentleman who has occupied the position of Under
Secretary for Foreign Affairs makes such a speech respect-
ing the Emperor of the French, I must say that I think it
highly indiscreet and very much to be deprecated. (Hear.)
What must be the effect produced on the highly inflammatory
susceptibilities of the French people when they hear of such
observations made, amid the cheers of his party, by a gen-
tleman who has held so high a position? I do not believe
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) inspired him with
that speech, for the right hon. gentleman is far too sensible
of the value of the French alliance ; and the right hon.
gentleman who has just spoken also sees so fully the indis-
cretion of the speech that he has endesvoured to explain it
away to the satisfaction of this house and of our neighbours
across the water. (A laugh.) But if we are every night
to be making this an opportunity for discussing the affairs
of the French Government and of Sardinia, what is to come
of it ? (Hear, hear.) Are we to lay hold of this commer-
cial treaty, which is meant to be one of amity, and turn it
instead into a source of war ? (Hear, hear.) By the course
you are pursuing I firmly believe that you are laying the
foundations of enmity between the two countries. (Cheers.)
As to the policy of annexation, I don't agree with the views
of the hon. member (Mr. Bright). I think he made that
speech under some momentaryirritation, and I am sure that
after consideration has led him to repent of many of those
sentiments. (A laugh,) If, however, the question may
be regarded from another point of view, let us, when the
proper time arrives for doing so, give it a calm, candid,
and open discussion; but do not let us, night after night,
upon the mere withdrawal of a motion, utter such irritat-
ing sentiments. (Cheers.) I heard with great pleasure
the speech made the other night by the hon. baronet (Sir
'H. Peel). It was a speech distinguished by great eloquence,
and I trust that we shall often hear the hon. baronet again,
but I also hope that to eloquence he will join discretion, and
will not on every possible occasion make Savoy the staple
of debate in this house. (Hear.) I have confidence in
the noble lord the Foreign Secretary. From the re-
marks. of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Whiteside) it
would seem that we all agree that the noble lord is
conducting these very difficult affairs with judgment
and moderation. Let us, then, assist him in the best
way we are able—namely, by so debating the subject in
this house as not to embarrass him, but to strengthen his
hands in negotiating. (Hear, hear.) Without impugning
the motives of hon. gentlemen opposite, I ask the House
not to be led away by any anti-Gallican feeling, and not to
mix up this Savoy question with the commercial treaty,
which he have a fair prospect of debating on Thursday
evening. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK.—Not being of any party whatever—
(laughter)—l think I may reply to the question, why we
mix up the two subjects of the commercial treaty and
Savoy. For the treaty of continerce no man is more
anxious than I am ; but at the same time I have my own
opinion about the annexation of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) I
will tell the hon. gentleman, then. why we connect the two.
With the internal affairs of France we have nothing to do.
The French place Whom they please at the head of their
Government. They present him to the world, and with
him we negotiate. It is, therefore, the duty of England to
negotiate with tho present Emperor of the French. We do
not ask how he came to the throne. We do not ask what is
his character. We do not, when negotiating with him ex-
press what we think of the man. All these questions must
enter into our minds; but we negotiate with him candidly,
freely; honestly, though we have our own opinion as to the
result of that negotiation. Now being, as I said, of no party,
and not being a Government official, I think it my duty on
the present occasion, simply as a representative of the people
of England to state what I accept as the result of the commer-
cial treaty, supposing it had passed. 'With the people of
France I have the most earnest desire to maintain the most
friendly relations. I believe it is for the happiness of mankind
that these two great nations should be upon relations of amity.
(Hear, hear. As the French nation has chosen its governor,
with him I am quite prepared to deal, but I cannot help form-
ing my own conclusion as to the result of this negotiation.
The result of this negotiation will, I believe, very much do..
pend upon the character of the man with whom we have to deal.
Now, what does that man do? Upon this occasion I am not
simply to consider what the hon. member for Birmingham
calls the danger of the question. (Hear, hear.) I have
to consider the honour of England. (Cheers.) I say that
if at this time we did not speak our minds we should be
truckling to the Emperor of the French. ' (Cheers.) 'We
should not be the England which I believe we are. (Con-
tinued cheers.) I say that this man who is now entering
into friendly relations with us is breaking all the treaties we
have made, and is casting dishonour upon England by mak-
ing it appear that we are his friends, while he is doing adis-
graceful and dishonourable act. (Hear, hear, and Oh.) I
do not mince my language. I don't fear that man, but I
intoa(Ec iceeadfre; hear.)
nn
intercourse.
uht isrtt
ss hd.eo
ndTeooibnotglhda?l
that invitation
ibHnyve
is
tioan
tdvi
doing.
tinensj. swlto l
tieheni
ngt
lo ter
have a fear lest England be thought to truckle to him.
I
he has acted doubly boldly, when, having quarrelled with his
priests, he ventures to quarrel with his Prohibitionists at
the same time. But he has done a bolder act. At the same
time that he invites England to be his friend he seeks to
break the treaties which England has made. He talks of
acquiring the versants des Alpes. If I understand what
that means ho will go still further. (Hear, hear.) The
man who talks of geographical reasons for wishing to aps
preach the Alps mayfor the same reasons desire to approach
the Rhine. (Cheers.) And so, if we now stand by with
" bated breath" while he approaches the Alps, we shall by
and by see him acquire the Rhenish provinces of Prussia
and
d crush
Belgium
o then
we to do that which we ought
to do now, and proclaim boldly that we think it would be
dishonourable to do that which he is about to do. I do
not ask for war—(hear, hear, and a laugh) ;—I know there
is pugnaeity at the bottom of all the hon. member for Bir-
mingham does. (Laughter.) When I say I do not wish to
fight ho laughs at me. (Renewed laughter.) But, sir, there
is something in the grave and solemn declaration of a great
people like England—(hear, hear) —even with the Emperor
of the French. (Hear, hear.) I have known the time when
a declaration of this house stopped him short in his career.
I recollect the time when this house was solicited to alter
the legislation of England to please him. This house re-
fused to consent to that. (Hear, hear.) We stopped him
short in, his capek Ow, and what has beeuhis course since

hear.)
Mr. CONINGHAM was not at all disposed to truckle to
the Emperor of the French, but felt bound to protest against
the use of such language as they had just listened to as ap-
plied to tho ruler of a friendly nation. (Hear.) He knew
that the language applied in that house to the Emperor was
in Franco considered to be the expression of the sentiments
of that house towards the French nation. (Hear, heer.)
Nothing could be more injurious to the interests of both
nations, more injurious to the interests of civilization.
(Hear, hear.) Hen. gentlemen opposite professednow great
sympathy for Savoy, but when Poland was divided, when
Cracow was absorbed, when the Russians marched into
Hungary, he did not remember there were any protests on
the part of the great Conservative party. (Hear, hear.) The
annexation of Savoy was a question in which England had
an interest, but if the districts contiguous to Switzerland
were to be given to that republic he thought that arrange-
ment *mild much modify the views which woulkotherwise
be entertained of the proposed transaction. -
Lord J. RUSSELL.—If any hon. gentleman in this
house thought it necessary to propose to consider the whole
question of Savoy, to find fault with the mode in which that
question has been treated by her Majesty's Government,
or to take the matter entirely out of the henna of the pre-
sent Government, that would be a useful and intelligible
course. (Hear, hear.) It might be that we had spoken too
tamely upon the subject, that men of higher abilities and
mere animated spirit might be able to deter the Govern-
ment of France from proceeding in any way with the an-
aexation of Savoy. Those who could succeed in persuading
the house to adopt that view might take the place of those
who have hitherto conducted the negotiations and proceed
to put their views in practice. But there is one course which
is neither consistent with constitutional proceedings in this
house, nor consistent with the ordinary confidence reposed
in the Government—(hear, hear)—and which, above all, is
not consistent with the maintenance of amicable feelings
between this country and France. (Hear.) That course
is the renewal day after day of irritating discussions—
(cheers)—putting forward particular points and incidents,
asking for no decisive vote, proposing no definite resolution
—(cheers)—but always pointing out the person whom the
French by immense majorities have chosen to rule over
them as a ruler whom we must distrust, against whom we
ought to be perpetually prepared. That course must tend
to alienate the two countries, and to bring about a total
rupture of amicable relations. (Hear, hear.) Now, lam
sorry to say that that is a course which some gentlemen
think it convenient to take, and I must on this occasion
ask them really to come to somo definite resolution as to
what they themselves propose by their speeches on this
question. (Cheers.) What has happened is this,—l must
again state it,-- It appears that when there was a disc-mg-
sion between France and Sardinia—when there was a
measure of concert arranged betwen them with respect to
the defence of Sardinia against Austria—some question
was raised, or some conversation passed, on the subject
of annexing Savoy to France. The war began ; the war
ended with the annexation of Lombardy to Sardinia, and
with no further conquest on the part of France. It was
understood that, according to theprelirninary treaty of Vil-
lafranca and the subsequent treaty of Zurich, the Grand
Dukes of Tuscany and Modena were to return to their do-
minions ; that the Popo was again tohave possession of the
Romagna ; and that Lombardy alone was to be the prize of
the King of Sardinia. The Emperor of France was the
man who promoted that arrangement, and did all he could
to brins; it to a successful result; and it was fully under-
stood that in that case there would be no question of the
annexation of Savoy. Well, that arrangement did not please
the Italian people; the Emperor of France said ho would
not use force to coerce their inclinations ; and those incli-
nations wore evidently in favour of their living under the
rule of the King of Sardinia. The Emperor of France said,
when it was clear that such would be the probable result,
it WAS desirable for the security of France that she should
have the side of tho Alps that lay towards France and that
she should have her frontier strengthened. On that ques-
tion her Majesty's Government differed with the Emperor
of France ; but I must say I never for a moment concealed
our opinions uponit from the Emporor of France. (Cheers.)
I was not wanting in telling him, frankly and plainly,
what our opinions were of that annexation, and what were
the consequences which might follow in Europe from car •
rying it into practical effect. But other Powers have to
take their part. The Emperor of the French took
his part so far that he declared to her Majesty's Govern;
ment, both through his Ambassador and through his
Minister for Foreign Affairs, that he would not proceed to
that annexation without consulting the great powers of Eu-
rope. It might be feared that by a sudden military occupa-
tion he might seize the capital of Savoy and the passes of
the Alps; but he has declared in the face dell Europe that
he will not so proceed. (Hear.) Those other powers to which
he has referred have to be consulted. We have told him
frankly our sentiments on the subject, and I do not know
that we can say more. But the question remains still to be
decided in what way the other powers will be consulted.
Her Majesty's Government have spoken out on the subject
as has also the British Parliament ; and the British public
and I may say all Europe, will soon know the manner in
which we have spoken. But the other Powers have not yet
spoken ; I cannot presume to say what the opinion of those
rowers will be on the subject in question; but is it at such
a moment, let me ask, and on such a subject, thatthe House
of Commons will consent, day after day, to listen to vague
discussions founded on no definite resolution ? (Cheers.) It
is my persuasion—l may be totally mistaken on that point,
because other circumstances may occur to disappoint any
such prophecy—but my persuasion is that if the language
of disapproval is held in Berlin, is held in Vienna, and held
in St. Petersburg, that this project of annexation will not
be persevered in. (Loud cheers.) I have said we don't as
yet know in what language those great Powers will express
themselves. Nay, more—the very Power which is most in-
terested in this question—the Government of Sardinia itself
—has not spoken on the subject. (Hear.) The members of
this house, and the public, may have seen two despatches
which have appeared in the ltioniteur, and have since been
reproduced in the newspapers here, which contain a project
furthe settlement of Italy, suggested by France, and one of
which despatches ends by stating that in case that project
were adopted it would still be necessary, for securing the
frontiers of France, to add Savoy. That question concerns
Sardinia more than any other Power in the world. (Hear.)
It is naturally the part of his dominions of which the King
of Sardinia must be the most proud ; it is the country in
which his house 'arose; and* in the course of time it has'
numbered among its people many of the most gallant and
skilful of officers and many of the 'bravest of men whose
deeds have adorned the page of history. The Government
of the King of Sardinia have answered at great length, and
with much detail so far as relates to Italy, but with regard
to Savoy, Count Cavour has said that he reserves that as a
separate despatch, and that he will treat it very soon in
that separate despatch, which he will communicate to the
Government of France. Then, I say again, when the
Power most of all interested in this'question has not yet de-
cided in what way it will act, that this is not the moment
in which wo should come to a precipitate conclusion.
(Cheers.) But this I will say, that whatever may be said
with respect to Savoy, my opinion is that the treaty of corn-.
merce with France is destined, if it obtains the approbation
of the Parliament of this country, to strengthen the ties of
friendship between the two nations, to increase the wealth
and stimulate the industry of both, and that by thus giving
a greater number of the people of France an interest in the
blessings of peace we shall delay, perhaps prevent that
calamity of war which, I think, it is the business of every
European statesman to use his utmost efforts to avert.
(Loud cheers.) With these convictions I shall be
ready, without entering into this question of Savoy,
to give my
earnest support to the motion of my
hon. friend the member for Middlesex (Mr. Byng) when-
ever he may bring that motion forward ; and when he does
so, I trust the house will consider the question of the treaty
of commerce as the main subject of our deliberations.
(Cheers.) Is there anything, I ask, connected with this
queetipn of Savoy to prevent our strengthening our rela-

tions with France by ties of commerce ? I believe there is oh I") There was a general belief that the Government had
not, for my part. I cannot understand the part which the someobject inprecipitatingmatters,and that an apprehension
hon. member for Sheffield takes in this matter. I cannot was felt that, if certain negotiations were not explained
imagine anything more pernicious than to indulge in invec- satisfactorily, some obstacles might arise to the completion
tive on such a subject, without anydefinite object. (Cheers.) of the pending arrangement. Now, he confessed he should
If we have to brine: forward at a future time the question of be too glad to see any obstacles interposed to the success of
Savoy, after havin§ disposed of coals and other matters of the proposed treaty. He believed that almost every interest
commerce, do not let gentlemen confine themselves to those in England was opposed to this treaty. ("Oh 1" and a
general terms of solemn protest. The hon. member for Hor- laugh.) Hon. members might laugh ; but let them corn-
sham says we are to make a solemn protest. What is the pare the number of hon. gentlemen representing commer-
meaning of that ? I can understand the rest of the great cial interests who had spoken favourably of this treaty with
Powers telling the Emperor of FranCe, in a manner per • the number who had spoken against it. (Hear.) The rea-
fectly friendly, but, at the same time, in a manner perfectly, son why the Government had carried their resolutions was
firm, that this annexation would alarm Europe, and that the that those who opposed the treaty, instead of wisely uniting
additional territory he would gain would be as nothing to for a common purpose, lmlm.d been cut to pieces in detail.
the consequences it might entail upon him, I can under- (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Bright) had
derstand that k ing said by the Powers of Europe in terms charged those who sat upon the Opposition benches with not
which would give it due force. But I can understand pursuing a manly course in regard to this treaty. But was
nothing by " a solem protest" but this—" Wo offer our re- it manly to sacrifice the honour and interests of England
solution; accept it, and we es al remain on friendly terms merely for the sake of the benefits resulting from a commer-
with you ; refuse it, and we shall go to war 1" It does not dal treaty ? There was nothing the hon. gentleman was
appear to me, therefore, that that is a centric likely to lead to not prrepared to sacrifice to the beneficial results of this
peace, or one calculated to prevent the Emperor of France treaty. If that was • tha hon. member's opinion of what
carrying out the object he has in view. It does not constituted a manly course it differed very considerably
appear that when the hon. member (Mr. S. Fitzgerald) was from his. The hon. gentleman had taken occasion to ob-
in office any great concern was felt on this subject. (Hear. serve that they were sittieg in the English House of Corn-
keen) Lord Malmesbury was informed at the time that mow. and not in the Parliament of France ; but many
there was a story going about—said to rest on authority speeches of the hon. gentleman had given him the impres-
of an agreement between France and Sardinia for the cession that they ought rather to he addressed to the Congress
sion of Savoy. When I was told of It I said to my infer • of the United States, to the proceedings of which it was the
mant he should go to Lord Malmesbury. It did appear avowed object of the hon., gentleman to assimilate their
that Malmcsbury directed Lord Cowley to make inqury on debates. •
the subject, but in doing so he mixed it up with several Mr. B. COC lIRANE inquired whether the motion with
other matters. Lord Cowley replied that ho had asked respect to an address to her Majesty regarding the commer-
Count Walewski about these several matters, and that cial treaty with France'would be brought forward on Thum-
Count Walewski did not make any observation with regard day or Friday?
to the territorial question. If Lord Malinesbury had been Lord J. RUSSELL—On Thursday;
very serious on this subject, he would have written again to Mr. STIRLING said some very important papers bad
Lord Cowley, and would not have been content with Lord been published that morning in the newspapers, which
Cowley saying that. Count Walewski had made no observe- formed no part of the correspondence that had been laid on
tion on the territorial question. He would have asked the table of the house. The noble lord likewise had stated
of Lord Cowley, "Do they deny what is alleged with that a very important despatch might be expected from
respect to Savoy ? or, if they ever entertained it, have Count Cavour in reply to that addressed to him by the
they given it up 1" If I had been office and Lord Cowley French Government. As it was natural to suppose that the
had written to ma that he had rpooived an unsatisfactory Sardinian Government would wish the greatest publicity to
answer, I should certainly have asked him to put the bo given to their opinions, he had no doubt copies of both
question again. (Hear, hear.) But this extreme zeal documents would be forwarded to this country. He wished,
which we now see on the subject—a zeal which goes be- therefore, to inquire whether these papers would be laid on
yond the mark, because it tends to endanger the peaceful the table before the debate was taken on the address to the
relations that exist between the two countries—is a Crown—(hear, hear)—respecting the commercial treaty
newborn zeal, which the hon. " gentleman did not with France. He put this question because, like many emi-
exhibit when he was in office. (Hear, hear.) I wish to nent members of the house, he felt unable to separate the
maintain the honour and dignity of the Queen and the question of Savoy from the other matters involved in the
honour and dignity of Parliament, but it does not seem to treaty. By this instrument they were about to enter inso
me that irritating discussions and imputations cast upon new and unnatural engagements with the Emperor of the
the French Government can in any way contribute to that French—engagements which last July the noble lord onthe
object. (Hear, hear.) There was a discussion, the news- Treasury bench had several times declared ought not to be
papers told us, some evenings ago in the other House of entered into with any Power whatever. As an independent
Parliament on this subject. I read with great pleasure the member of Parliament, before he gave his assent to engage-
various speeches said to have been made on that occasion vents with a foreign Power he had a right to ask how the
by the members of different parties. It appears to me that Sovereign of that State observed older and more important
they expressed in a grave and solemn way their opinions . engagements with other free States of Europe. (Hear.) He
upon this question, and, if the House of Commons comes to had a right to know how far the rights guaranteed by treaty
give its opinion on the same question, I trust it will do so to Switzerland would be respected. On this subject the
in the same spirit. (Hear.) the hon. member for Tam- papers on the table of the house gave no satisfaction what-
worth delighted the house the other night with his elo- ever, save that the representative of Switzerland iu Paris
quence, and the language he employed was such as became was utterly unable to obtain information, and seemed to be
the gravity of the subject; but I am sure that the use of haunting the British Embassy for the sake of the intern-
ence which might be gained in that quarter. It was, there-
exciting and irritating language and casting imputations g
on foreign Governments will add nothing to the dignity of fore, but reasonable that members, by the production of
those papers, should be afforded an opportanity of making
this house, and nothing to the security of the peace of
Europe. (Hear.) up their minds before they were called on to vote an address
Lord J. MANNERS said the noble lord had, uninten- to the Crown. (Hear, hear:),,
tionally he was sure, done injustice to his predecessors in Mr. COLLIER said an appeal had been made by the noble
office. The noble lord informed the house that Lord lord the member for Tiverton to his hon. friend the member
Malmesbury instructed Lord Cowley to demand an explana- for Sunderland to wit/lid raw his motion,which proposed that
tion from the Government of France as to the rumoured further negotiations should be entered into for the purpose
annexation of Savoy ; that Lord Cowley informed him that of inducing the French Government to enter into a supple-
Count Walewski gave no answer whatever to his appnea- mentary treaty of navigation, and to relax their laws in
tion; and that Lord Malmesbury allowed the matter to rest favour of British shipping. He understood the noble lord
there. Now, the noble lord, speaking from memory, had to make this appeal chiefly on the ground that to propose an
forgotten the state of the facts, and had—unintentionally, addition of this kind to the address would be very incon-
no doubt—misstated them. The late Government did not venient ; but he understood him at the same time to say
allow the matter to drop, in the way stated by the noble that if the motion was brought forward in a substantive
form, a day would be given for the purpose, and he also
lord, but obtained from the French Government a positive
contradiction of the rumour that Lord Cowley had been in- collected that the noble lord would not be disposed to give
strutted to bring before them. (Hear, hear.) He hoped, any oppositioreto the principle of the motion. On the ques-
therefore, that the noble lord would take the earliest oppor- tion of navigation ho considered the commercial treaty to
tunity of unsaying what, from momentary forgetfulness, he be defective, and the country, he thought, had reason to
had stated to tho house on this subject. (Hear, hear.) Re- complain of the stringency of the French regulations, while
ferring to the question immediately before the house, he our restrictions had all been abolished. He ventured to ask
could not reconcile the tone of the noble lord's speech that whether he had correctly understood the statement of the
night with the one which he delivered on Friday evening, noble lord ?
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord on Friday invited the co-ope- Sir H. IVILLOUGHBY said the noble lord the Secre-
ration of Parliament in the protest he was making against tary for Foreign Affairs gave an assurance last year that
the proposed annexation of Savoy ; but on the present occa- the Emperor of the French had abstained from all intention
sion he understood him to deprecate discussion in that of annexing Savoy.
house, though he seemed to approve the discussion which Lord J. RUSSELL—At that time he did, as will appear
took place in the other House of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) by the despatch of Count Walewski.
The noble lord objected to what ho called a precipitate Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY said the despatch of Count
judgment on the part of that house ; but those who, like Walewski did state a possible event in which the Emperor
the hon. member for Sheffield and himself, held that the of the French, even at that time, considered the annexation
commercial treaty ought not to receive the final sanction or of flayoy indiapcnaablo i -which was, in case any addition
Parliament till some deliberate expression of its opinion was was made to Piedmont on the side of the Duchies or the
Legations. He m ished to know whetber the noble lord had
given on this most momentous of all tho questions of the
day, found that the noble lord himself had laid the founda•• any objection to produce the correspondence in which that
tion for the view they took in the first despatch he wrote on eventuality was described, because it was quite clear that
the subject of the commercial treaty. (Hear, hear.) in that so far back as July, 1859, the Emperor of the French and
despatch•the noble lord gave special prominence to the im- his Government, in some way or other, declared to Lord
portance of the commercial treaty in a European and politi- Cowley that tho annexation of Savoy should follow the
cal sense, though now he wished them to look at it simply occurrence of certain contingencies with regard to Sardinia.
on commercial grounds. (Hear.) The noble lord said : It was quite clear that if such a distinct declaration had
"Its general tendency would bo to lay broad and deep been made, the Emperor of the French had a right to say
foundations in common interest and in friendly intercourse that her Majesty's Government received full warning.
for the confirmation of the amicable relations that so hap- Lord J. RU SSE LL—ln answer to the question of the
pily exist between the two countries ; and, while thus mak- hon. member for Perthshire with respect to certain de-
ing a provision for the future, which would progressively
become more and more eolid and efficacious, its significance ,patches relating to France and Savoy, I have to state that
at the present moment, when the condition of some parts of no such despatch has yet arrived, and Ido not know if it
the continent is critical, would be at once understood, and has yet been written. As soon as the reply of the Sar-
would powerfully reassure the public mind in the various dinian Government has been communicated I shall bo ready
countries of Europe." to lay it on the table of the. house, but it is impossible for
After this announcement on the part of the noble lord, me to say when that may occur, or to what further cone-
_ how could he ask Parliament to dissever, in their conside- spondence it may give rise. The despatches of M. Thouve-
ration on this question, the commercial treaty and the " nel have appeared in all the newspapers, but if the house
Heal condition of some parts of the Continent of Europe ?',' wish for copies they will of coursebelaid on the table.
Would he deny that the condition of sonic parts of Europe Respecting the discussion of the question of annexation in
was at this moment " critical ?" (Hear.) And was the 1859, there is no public despatch whatever on the subject.
noble lord entitled to ask them to refrain from giving an 'Lord Cowley from time to time in his private letters said
opinion on the causes that led to this critical condition of Count Walewski agreed
that the annexation of Tuscany to
certain portions of Europe beforo their assent was given to Sardinia was impossible, but if such a case should ever by
the treaty which the noble lord said would enable France possibility occur, it would then be for Franco to consider
and England to lay deep the foundation of a common in- whether her frontiers would be safe without the annexation
tercet and a friendly intercourse? (Hoar, hear.) The of Savoy. But Lord Cowley' who has acted throughout
noble lord objected to what he seemed to think were tease - with great discretion, did not think proper to introduce
ing repetitions of the debate on the subject of Savoy. loose conversations or casual intimations into his official
Everybody would agree with the noble lord that they ought correspondence.
to discuss the question in a fair and legitimate manner, but Lord PALMERSTON—I wish to explain amatter which
he and those around him thought that that discussion is not clearly understood by the hon. member for Plymouth.
should take precedence of the one in reference to the treaty. What I did state to the member for Sunderland was, that
(Hear. hear.) if he would suffer us to discuss thwproposition of the ad-
Lord H. VANE thought they would hardly accomplish dress to her Majesty, to which ho proposed to make the ad-
the object they all had in view, viz., to deprecate this an- dition contained in his motion, the Government could have
nexation of Savoy to France, if they coupled that subject
no possible objection to the opinions which it embodied
with the commercial treaty. (Hear.) Their object was to
being expressedto the house ; and they might even think
prevent the accomplishment of that annexation, and he that such an expression would assist them in any negotia-
agreed with the noble lord in thinking that much value was tion which might be made officially with France.
to be attached to an expression of the opinion of Parliament The motion for postponing the orders of the day
was
on the subject ; but he could not countenance the idea that then withdrawn.
any advantage would attend the use of violent and vitupe-
rative language towards the head of the French Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the noble lord the
Foreign Secretary in thinking that if this annexation
was to be prevented it must be done by the united action
of Europe, and not by a single protest of our own. The
people of this country were unanimous in deprecating that
annexation, and he trusted it would not bo permitted.
(Hear, hear,)
Mr. NE WDE GATE, as an independent member, wished
to point out to the Government that they ought to alter the
course they had pursued. They had not adopted the line
taken in 1787, because they had omitted to bring in the pre-
liminary resolutions which had enabled the House of Com-
mons of that day to consider the political bearings of that
treaty, independently of the commercial and financial ques-
tions involved. Tho Government had, on the contrary,
plunged into a Committee of Ways and Means, and the
house had consequently no fair means of expressing
an opinion upon the political bearings of the treaty. The
hon. member for Birmingham said, " Perish Savoy I"
But we were about. to enter into commercial transactions
with France affecting £1,000,000 of our revenue, and did
the Government intend to • offer whatever advantage
that sacrifice of revenue entailed as a subsidy to France
for the purposes now announced ? He thought the house
had a right to demand a fair opportunity of stating that
if we were about to make financial sacrifices, and to confer
great commercial advantages upon France, it was tto
ille esidise France to crush the liberties of Savoy. (Hear,
hear.) Ho had been delighted to hear the speech of the
hon. and learned member for Sheilield. Somehoefrhriesnexh-
pressions were too severe to the Emperor of t 7
but he rejoiced to hear an independent member vindicate
the right of the British House of Commens to put its own
interpretation upon its own language and its own acts.
(Hear, hear.)
- Mr. BENTINCK only differed from his hon. friend who
had just spoken upon one point. Ho went all lengths in the
opinion that the house ought to have ample time for consi-
dering this question of Savoy before they accepted the treaty
with France. He would even go further, and say that the
worst thing that could happen for the honour and happiness
ofEngland was that the treaty should ever be ratified at all.
He deprecated, however, the use of personal and coarse in-
vective. (Hear, hear.) He believed that such language only
recoiled on those who uttered it, and was alike discreditable
to the house and to the country it represented. (Cheers.)
The Government complained that discussions of this kind
were extremely inconvenient, but they had only themselves
to blame for them. Ho contended that the Government had
attempted to stifle discussion, and he could not admit the
representations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that
the general interests of the country required that there
should be no delay in passing these resolutions. The party
represented by the hon. member for Birmingham might
have a positive and pecuniary object in hurrying the treaty
to a conclusion, and it was not therefore surprising that the
Government should lend itself to this view. But he had very
little doubt the commercial interests of the country were
opposed to the measures of the Goyernment, (Cries of "Oh,

CUSTOMS ACTS.
lhe house again resolved into committee on the Customs
Acts.
The list of articles to be made free of duty (not under the
treaty) was then agreed to.
and lathwood" (on which
Is. °pger"l load oisd
k d whether andrawback would be
Colonel SYKES as e
taon
be
e ltimber,evi
levied),
d ) , hewn,
tof drawbacks, 1
lurposes, and
Mr. LAING said tho paymou
.. unless un-
had been discontinued. On t*
allowed for the duty paid on stocks in baud?.
der special arrangements, un-
eid,:il,,,be,,g,,inn.
The rcoulul ti c‘o LI.L,AL ..,„
f • shipbuildingu tuu'' "tug
ber no drawbackl:daSoluntwconold
and
a duty of Is. a
resolution rolatmgto hops was postponed and those
The 9
was then ordered to report the resolution!,
ono of £1 ss. per
continuing the presentquartfrraotnegr_uoanit.tea
sugar passed.
and the house resumed.
The Chairman
Elx.vonTED BRITISH SPIRITS.
In Committee of Ways and Means,
Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved a
resolution allowing a drawback of 2d. a gallon on raw
spirits, and 3d. on rectified spirit..., British manufactured,
entered for exportation.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said it was usual to print reso-
lutions of this kind, in order that those who took an interest
in such matters might have an opportunity of being present
at the discussion of them.
Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
substance of the fesolution had been printed, and had been
in the hands of members some four or five days ago; so
that full notice had been given to everybody interested.
The resolution was then agreed to,
SAVINGS BANKS AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES