The Sun.
London, England, 1867-04-18 00:00:00

Trades' Unions.

The evidence given before the Royal Commission
on Trades' Unions, by Mr. Allan, the Secretary of
the Society of Amalgamated Engineers, the first
part of whose evidence was given in The Sun of yes-
terday, was resumed before Sir William Erie (chair-
man), Lord Eleho, M.P., Sir E. W. Head, K.C.8.,
Sir D. Gooch, M.P., Mr. H. Merivale, C. 8., Mr. J.
Booth, C. 8., Mr. Roebuck, M.P., Mr. T. Hughes,
M.P., Mr. F. Harrison, and Mr. W. Matthews.
On this occasion the witness brought certain rules
or by-laws to which he had referred in his previous
evidence, and which he acknowledged were in effect
secret, as they were not issued with the rules,
and were kept back, so that the public, that
was to say the non-society men, should not know
them. These rules imposed fines upon any members
doing work by the piece, and refusing to share the
surplus over the weekly wages with the members
-upon the job, that was to say ne was forced to share
the profits of his skill with the others under the
penalty of a fine of 103. the first time, 20s. the
second, and exclusion the third. Members working
under a " piecemaster" had to insist upon having a
share of such profits, and those who refused to leave
such employment on the call of their branch, for
not receiving such profits, over and above their
wages, subjected themselves to the same penalties.
Mr. Matthews said on this--" If a workman, pos-
sessed of superior intelligence or tact, in organising
a contract, divides the proceeds among his fellow-
men, there is no encouragement for him to proceed
in that way, is there ?" To this the witness re-
plied—" Such a man as that, generally speaking, is
rated at a higher rate of wages than the others,
and, in addition to his rate of wages, or the sharing
the surplus, he generally receives something like 5
or 10 per cent. for his management of the affair."
This " something like 5 or 10 per cent.," however,
is only given at the option of the other men, and, if
they decline to allow it, the skilled manager of the
job " must in that case submit" to go without it.
The society did not interfere with a man getting
more wages than the average, but it assisted men in
obtaining a rise—that was to say, a man might
complain to his branch that he had not enough
wages, and if the members thought with him they
would sanction his leaving and having the " out-of-
work" " donation ;" but if a man worked for less
than he was thought entitled to, and was willing to
continue working for this less sum he stood " a very
good chance of being excluded" from the society. Mr.
Matthews asked —" Even without working at a very
reduced rate, if he were working below the recognised
rate of working, the same would occur, would it not?"
and the witness gave this answer—" We would say,
' You must leave this shop.' We would svpposc a shop
to be what we call a 365. shop—that is to say, 365. a
week. If a member goes and works there for 325.,
and is not worth any more, than we say to him,
Your better plan will be to leave this shop and go
to one where you cau only get that—but do not stay
here for the purpose of giving encouragement to the
employer to reduce the rate to 325.'" Another of
the by-laws or secret rules was the one prohibitfng
members from obtaining non-members a job with-
out first obtaining the sanction of the officers of the
branch, and Mr. Matthews asked—" Supposing his
brother came to him, would he be prohibited from
recommending him ?" and the witness answered—
" Decidedly ; and it is quite proper, and I should
say, that he should" (be so prohibited.)
On the question of strikes, increase of wages, and
decrease of wosking hours, the witness was examined
at very great length. He said the advance in wealth
and strength of the society had tended to make
strikes in the trade less frequent than they were
formerly, and there bad been fewer trade disputes,
with lock-outs and strikes, during the last 15 years
than during the preceding 15 years. Now, when
men had grievances, they waited upon their em-
ployers by deputations, and the, council of the so-
ciety gave advice. He said, " I should say that
members generally are decidedly opposed to strikes,
and that the fact of our having a 11.rge accumu-
lated fund tends to encourage that feeling among
them. They wish to conserve what they have got,
as I have heard it put here, the man who has not
got a shilling in his pocket has not much to be
afraid of, but with a large fund such as we possess,
We are led to be exceedingly careful not to expenl
it wastefully, and we believe that all strikes area"complete waste of * money, not only in relation to
the workmen, but also to the employers." The
society, he said, "have recommended that no strikes
should take place in 20 cases in as many months in
this trade. Wages had fluctuated little during the
last 10 or 12 years, but during the last year there
has been an upward tendency. The society had cer-
tainly not maintained more than six strikes during
the last 10 years directly for the purpose of raising
wages. The strikes which occurred had principally
arisen "from piece-work alid the large number of boyfi

employed," and " for " regulating the trade." Mr.
Roebuck asked,---" Why should you prevent a mas-
ter from employing boys who can do the work ?"
and the witness replied,—" We have a perfect right
to say t 3 him, If you employ a certain number of
boys beyond what we conceive to be the proper
number, we will not work for you." Mr. Roebutk
A. proper number flumes the number that you
like ?" Witness--" What the men think right."
In reply to Mr. Harrison, the witness said the socie`y
men regulated their affairs without depen -knee upon
the non-society men ; but if the latter fell in with
the society men's views " well and good." Occa-
sionally the two classes held a meeting, and, gene-
roily speaking, if there was anything in the nature
of a strike the non-society men left their employ-
ment as well as the society men. There was now a.
strike at Blackburn to resist a reduction of wages to
the extent of 2s. a week. There had previously
been a rise there in consequence of the briskness of
trade ; but now, trade being slack, the masters
wanted to lower the wages. This evidence drew
from Mr. Roebuck the remark--" So you have one
rule for yourself and another for your master ?" to
which the witness rejoined—" We keep what we
can get as a general rule." He knew that society
men were refused employment at some places ; but,
he said, even if the great firm of John Brown, and
Co., of Sheffield, advertised that they would have
no society men in their place, he doubted the as-
sumed fact that they had no society men in their
employ. Mr. Matthewsasked—" You set your face
al—;TiliiircirrFeiition to lam bylle‘ free admission-
of boys ?" Witness--" We endeavour to prevent
an overplus of labour in our market 'by the admis-
sion of boys." Mr. Matthews—" So that while
keen competition is brought to bear on the opera-
tions of masters in every department of trade, the
workmen contrive by this means to shut out the
competition of labour ? Witness—" No, I think it
generally regulates itself." Mr. Matthews—" But
would not the effect of the unionsbe to interfere with
that self-regulation?" Witness—" Decidedly so,
we do not interfere as regards society men." Mr Roe-
buck—" And if any evil followed from that interfe-
rence the evil would fall upon the poor ?" Witness—
" I do not know about whom it would fall on, that is a
broad quostion." Mr. Matthews—" It would have
the effect, at all events, of very materially restrict-
ing the resources from which the employers draw
their supplies of labour ?" Witness —" It is no
doubt a restriction." He added afterwards that the
object in limiting apprentices was " to keep wages
up; no question about it." The witness allowed as
a rule when the men wanted the hours of labour re-
duced they would not consent to the wages being
proportionally lowered; but the exception had
taken place. Recurring to the question of strikes
he said persons who had nothing to do with the
strikes were often thrown out of employment, and
they had nothing from the funds but what was given
in charity. The witness controverted the general
view about the interest of employers and employed
to work together. He said—" I scarcely see how
that can be while we are in a state of society which
recognises the principle of buying in the cheapest
and selling in the dearest market. It is their (the
masters') interest to get the labour done at as low a
rate as they possibly can ; and it is ours to get as
high a rate of wages as possible, and you can never
reconcile these two things." He allowed that a
strike had taken place against a foreman, under
whom the men would not work.

On the question of foreign work, the witness ex-
pressed no fear that continental manufactures would
ever successfully compete with the English, and he
said—" I may just state that trades' societies are
being established in France and in Belgium rapidly,
and they will have the tendency of raising the
wages, and thereby remove that fear of cmnpetition
that our English friends areso much alarmed ab mt."
Mr. Matthews asked—" Do you know anything
of wages in France and Belgium, as compared with
England ?" The WitnessiL" Our members em-
ployed in France are getting from £2 to £2 103. per
Sr cek. Th© eamo - clams of nacn -in nil
probability
would be getting here 365. a week." Mr. Matthews
—"
What do the ordinary French and Belgian work-
men get? I wish to draw a distinction between
the highly skilled workmen, which, I dare say, those
aro who go out from your society to work in France,
and the ordinary skilled workmen in Belgium and
France?" Witness—l do not know personally; I
only go from hearsay, but I am given to understand
that it is from four to six francs per day." Mr.
Matthews—" Is it not something like 30 per cent.
below the wages of English workmen?" Witness
—"lf thy are getting sf. a day it would be, say 4s 2d
against some 6s. here." Mr. Matthews—" Assu-
ming the ordinary rate of wages to be 30 per cent.
lower in France and Belgium than in this country,,
and that workmen improve in France and Belgium
as they do here, what is to prevent work going
from this country to France andßelgium ?" Witness
—" I cannot answer that question as to what even-
tually may turn up, but at the present time I see
nothing to apprehend. I believe, in the first place,
that the Englishman does as much work in six days
as the Frenchman can do in eight. Under the sys-
tem on which they work there, men being allowed
to smoke their cigars while at work and to enjoy
themselves in that kind of way, it is impossible for
them to do the same quantity of work as they do in
England." Mr. Matthews—" Is it not the fact
that the manufacture of locomotives and other
engines has very much increased in France and Bel-
gium in the last ten years ?" Witness—"l believe
it has. Ido not thiuk that France and Belgium
will stand still in that respect or in any other. I
believe nations will progress, because it is in the
nature of things: that they should." The witness
also stated that the society received information as
to work going on in different parts, and they used
this information for the benefit of the members ;
and after some other details had been given, the
witness's evidence closed.