The Sun.
London, England, 1803-06-07 00:00:00

T

F., •
IL, A.

Ci
A)) j.

JUNE 7,: 1803.

IMPERIAL PARLI4MENT.

HOUSE OF PEERS.
MONDAY, JUNE 6. •
The Committee of Privileges was postponed.
:The Archbishop of cits lir t.,- (.me of the Irish Spiritual
Peer,) awl the Bishop of Lt :V cot. u were- sworn and took
their seats.`
Lard SHEFFIELD' said, he submitted for their
Lordships' consideration a Bill, entitled" An Mt
to regulate the ForMs of Conviditins by Justices of
the Peace, and to-rendee such Justices more safe in
the Execution of their Office." In reSped to Con.
vidiaris, he observed, 'the principle of it
.had been ,
adopted in every ,instance where a suinmary juris- l
diCition wad give during the last for ty or fifty years.'
He wished the same principle amtl advantage to be
coiornunicxed to the Suitu(es of the same nature
passed previously to that period;, and, he flattered.
'himself, that with the asAstance of the House, it
might be rentkred :generally useful. It is well ,
1 kno.on 7'.0 (refflAtt'Apt,' That Just it-es were OIL.
ginally merely ConserVators of the Peace, and that
in a course of time, an infinity of other business
has been imposed neon them-L--not a Ssssions•passed
which
.did not add some new duties, and unfortu.
narcly for them, among .the rest, a summary juris.
diction, in those cases where the expense of the
commofi law would prevent the puQishinent of of-
fences : it must he admitted at the same time, that
in very many cases, were it not foe summary juris.
(Unions, it would be impossible to give effect to
the laws of the 'country ; but the Justices are re-
quired, under a penalty, to draw up a Convidion,
and it must be according to the form prescribed by I
the common law, that is, a complete technical re.
cord of the whole proceedings. These Convidions
being attended with great difficulty, the ends 'of
public justice were dekated, and the Legislature
found it necessary, during the last and the present
reign, to annex a peculiar and much shorter form of
Convidion to those Statute's which give a summary
jurisdiftion ; but in respell to laws passed previous.
ly, there is no provision, and it is become a ne,xim,
that not one Convidion in a thousand, . if attacked,
Could stand ; and he knew a case where,. after up.
wards of thirty' years experience, when application
was made to respetqable .members of the Law to
draw up a-Convietion, they agreed in the opinion -
that has just been stated ; namely, that not one in
a thousand would stand, if attacked and when a
Barrister, of distinguished talents and experience in, '
such matters, was consulted, lie said, scarce an Ars 1
torney in England could draw up a Convidion, and
that none but a Special Pleader was capable of it.
He could not believe that it was the intention of the 1
Legislature to place the Law and•the'Magiitracy in 1
such, a predicament . A fixed fr)rn of Copy idiOn is I
necessary to protect both the Law and the Magi.
.st rate tia tinst the practices of those whose trade it is
to prevent the due execution of the LaW. It would •
be necessary to pass some such Bill as is proposed,
if it were only to correct the imperfations in the 1
. forms of Convidions annexed to Ads passed during i
the last forty or fifty, years. On examination it is
found, 'that they are defedive in no less that. fifty.
three instances, or Ads of Parliament of this reign,
and he was told that others might be poietcd out.
He said, it is a.matter of great importance that.all
judicial proceediogs, when the guilt is clear, should
trot be quashed for want of form. These unseemly
niceties,. as Lord Hale calls them, send many bun,
~ sheds back upon Society every year, encouraged `
thereby to repeat their offences. Many offenders
escape justice, not because they are not,guilty, but
because there is a word too little, or a word .too
-moat, or some technical inaccuracy in the motttaif
~proceeding. The Magistrate, although there is
not the least ground to Suppose oppression, to ill
intention, ott his part, and not the slightest doubt
of the guilt of the offender, is liable, on the sug.
gestion Of persons who are a disgrace ma the' profess-
sion of the Law, to be brought -'-from the most tits.
k taut part of the kingdoni, from the last 'parish in
Northumberland, before the King's Bench at West_
. minster, where, although' the Court may wish to
proteei the, Magistrate, the proceeding must, of
cootie, . in many instances, be quashed, on account
of some mere infOrmility,. and the Judges cannot
preserve the Magistrate from an Adioti- of Trespass
on the pari of the Culprit, although the'opritittoess
of the one, •anttahe.guilt of the other are pettedly
evident. Every circumstance, so - revolting and
distouraging, should be done. away, and every
means used to encourage men of .consideration and
property; to undertake an office, which, at present,
is troublesome and disgustiug in the extreme; so
much So-that it ii with difficulty Gentlemen cart be
, found to aft as'MagistrateS ; and many extensive
DistriCti have not a single Magistrate. Unless the
dignity ofahe.coffice iasupported, -unless it is pros
teeted, it must fall into' the hands of 'those who
mean to give themselves a little consequences, but
who will alWays suffer the culprit to escape rather
than risk a legal preoeeding on the quibbles of the
law, with the most worthless of its Professors.—
The preient Bill does nor propose to- give thelus-
tices, in any case, a power of convidion where it
was not befote given them by particular Statutes.
It gives the advantages possessed by Statutes passed
within forty or fifty years, namely, a form of Comm.
yiaitin to those which passed previously to that pe-
riod. The purpose of the Bill is to put ten end to
the uncertainties and inconsistency apparent: on the
face of the several existing Statutes, by some of
which` it ii declared that'convidions shall not be
quashed for want of form, ,though no form is pre.
scribed ; by others forms are prescribed, but it is nut
4eclared that' they shall not be. quashed for infOrma.
lily, and in the instances where forms are prescriti.
ed.,
i different ers Thc rums: its 114 schedule they appear inadeqtiate, incomplete, and entirely
from each o

•-•k#
rf;;.
. h ;.6
•C‘i )7
?;4.. •
k•Oi *-." •
4t) .jet • NI

[PRicrf,'st)::tizi,itEs

are drawn upti.ii the principle of skewing that in the
convidion of the offender, all the rules required by
tlie Common LW for aseertain'ing the with
"accused, have been complied,with, but without 6,..;
.plicitir stating all the minute fads anLkeirciirtivinces
of the case. Clauses are inserted, iirst; allowing
Justices to use either the form here prescribed, the.
several forms already ptescribed by, existing Ads,
or any other form sufficient. in point of law ;
secondly, expressly reserilipg the right of Appeal,:
as existing under other Statutes. CiO,USCS are :dso
addeq,fif3t giving the right of Al to rite Quar.:
ter Stssicit In ail cases where t• cOnvielion mad<!„,
ittthe fqiii prescribed by the. it' 7 .4 cid. ..z,c-{,nd.
iy; givlng power to the judge ~ :.;
::glinst ajustice in conscriu;n, curl-
vidion whatever, to certify on ,:..tr
such Justice had a good ground of coic.l.l-1,,
which ose a verdiet be•giveci for tLe IMend.
ant, far which suggestion the Cotintry is obliged by
the. Lord chief Justice
.of th.e King's Bench. it is
pres'oined netltilg- in 11;;i
least incon'sistent with the general principles of Lime
for the administration of justice; and for the prom:.
tion of those; Wli,a administer it uprightly—but that
on the contrary, the regulations suggested will
iitate those purposes on which the internal peace of
the Country so peculiarly depends.
The Noble Lord then presented the. Bill, whiCh
was forthwith read a first time. ,

The Mike of NORFOLK,. who had ieccuOy entered thti
House, called tilt attention of thetr Lovillhips to a cirvurn.
stance which he deemed *w atlcet the Privilege of em
bers of that House.' _ _

7he LORD 'CHANCELLOR before hit GraCe proceeded
farther, observed, thtt ti) matter being of that pecill tar nature;
that it Was customary strarivrs should be excluticd,-cluring
the .discussion--,he therefere proposed the order, and tint
strangers withdrew accordingly.
We are In consequence r;!clutled from particultriziriA
what took place, but its we coitld cOnett, [ll4 sttpjeet of
their Lordships' deliberations ryas,.. a lettgr addressed by the
Rev. air. Brydgei trtiant of the Barony or id
the Duke of • Norfolk and other Peers, adverted to try his
Grace. on a former everting,-
The Bills beiotc the Hato,: were tbrWarded in their ta.•
peetiVe stages.
Mr. , Williams, from theti'otwiiis3iotters bf Naval Itic{t:'i'y;
presented the second report fro.ll.the C911111165-10110$4
which was ordered to be Ltttl upa the Table:
A considerable 'number of Bills, of a private or local
description were btought up .troth the•COITIMORS by
Metribers, and which were severally reatitt. first Canc.....

CONDUCT OF MINISTERS.
The Order of the Day' being :cad/for suer tons
ing their Lordships, Zlze.. :
Earl FITZWILLIAAi, pursuant to the notice.
he had given, *rose, and after a short intkoductery.
Speech,' expressive of his strong di,,Aprohation of
'the conduct of Ministers, since the •Ncgotie ion
of the late Treaties of Peace, brought forward to
the view of their Lotdshipi, certain resolOonss.
-.founded on the positions advanced in the course of
itnd ittylying A ,ef c(l.°
j.tsty's I\lini,,ters, and which he hi: should to-
pose for the adoption of the ifotbe. ile • co.;clu,!ed
by regularly moving the first 'resolution,
(being read front the IV‘lol,ack;) W'tb W the
ing effea That it was the duty of llis MAjesf
q's Ministers to have made early and Spirited re.:
monstrances against all those acts which constittved.
a series of aggtessions, insults, &c, o'ri tht: pail of
France, and by such reptesennitions to have endea-
voured to ascertain, *whether
,their caulk and pros
gress could hove been arrested without the necessity
of recurring to force a arms. That bcfbre the th;.
termittatien of the .French Govetntrient was asec:. r
tained, they should nOt live 'proceeded to a Teilicx.:.:
tion of our fond; and that the neglea of such du-
ties. on the'part of I lis Majesty's Ministers, was
injurious to the puhlie interest:,:"

t ."

- _
The DUKE of CLA.RENCE obrietvel, that ri,t;.
with,,ttncling his persouaLresra ftr the_Nobid
Earl, whose Parliamentaty contlua ever since thd
comnienceitient of the French Revolution was manlyi
alid cc-insistent—yet balding the opinions he did, itd
could not support the Resolution just moved. Wi:h
respect to Ministers, he thought they deserved
thanks, even for, having so long procured the bles.:
sings of Peace as they had ilone. He was well ‘,
aware, with a reference to all the ' existitibQcircum. •
•
stance, of the t.lifficulties of any Negotiation. with
France l- that such could be brnught to a pacific
issue, was matter of -surprise to him, and !puke,
these i‘npressiv-ans he regarded it as a matter, of exile.
ritnoit, With respeet to the Ptelitninaties,
ever, when he considered the circuinitanees in W 16(11
the Country was placed.at the ti ate, 0101.10ilt
Ought to have been satisliCtory-,--bot into the sob.
jeet of the Definitive Treaty, which was certainly
one of serious consideration, he should not then en,
ter. But he .could not avoid adverting to did
gross luiscondutti of the late Ministers, which
had brought the Country= into that situation iii
which the present Ministers found it ; and lid
avowed his readiness to meet any Noble Lotd with.
respell to any military event which had,taken placd
since the marching at the Guards in February, 1793,
to the period of the presencMitlisters coming into
power. With respia to the atiltir of Malta, after
glancing at the events relative to that subject, he
expressed his opinion, that under the -circumstances
of the case, Ministers were justified in maintaining
it; what redu )0s of force bad taken place were
a proof of the hype Ministers entertained of being
ableto execute the Treaty. He alluded tta 0.,e lan-
guage of one of .His Majesty's late Speech,-1,,
' sideringit as &dated by Ministers, w filch he coin-
mended as wise moderate, and firm , ;tod-41:,o the
prudence of Ministers in hitving the N:1-v0 force •
of the Country, at the time of the delive4ipg,
His Majesty's 'Message, nearly in,..as guod
state as in a period of Wr. Hit' then advert..
ed to the conilkt of Ministers with respea to
ttit)henact:riit theafcaSp%itz
ev.werl
ilitettiiiti.iiatl
i,s.Rtll:; te3linrogirailir nett n»
ed to apkittive, - and he tifterwat,is. alluded to thFiir...

snlent menaces of the Enemy, that England could
• not meet France single_handed : the experience of
ages and the page of history refuted this untruth,
.and evinced that England never encountered. France
with so much energy, effeet, or advantage, as
when she was single.handcd, and, added His
. •
' Royal Highness, " lie who makes such an asset..
• " don is either a liar in his heart, or a fool, that
*1 should be. sent to school to learn better." . He
gave Ministers full credit for their endeavours to
maintain Peace, as long as it could consistently be
dont, and concluded by warmly declaring his cOn-
,
• viaion, that the Country !suffered. much from the
.gtosa miscondua of Hia Majesty's late Ministers;
- • •and that.atootter than they should again be brought
isstoMis Majesty's Councils, he would do any thing
to keel).* present Ministers in power.
The ,Eartiof COVENTRY made a few observa.
tins*, aptiaientiy. idiepproliationaof the way in
which 'lVliniiters were opposed. from certain guar-
ters, which brought to his 'mind the language of
the Poet.
Willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike!"
Lord MINTO entered upon the general subjea
of discussion in a apeech of considerable length,
and which- he", .d6played• his usual ability.e--
The proposition of his Noble Friend, he said, had
his most hearty concurrence, but there was one re.
belt from the conduit of Ministers, which would
induce his cordial support, namely, the - rupture.
that had taken place with Fiance. He censured the
Treaty or Amiens, as a mere, and 'an unfor innate
rxl vrimental measure. With resped to the affair of
Malta, he argued, in the course of a detailed die.
cussion of the merits of the relevant Article in the
Treaty, that France had no right, even'under the
express stipulations, to call upon' us to evacuate
Malta. 'Ministers were wise in retaining it ;
went farther, and stated his opinion, that no sys_
tern} of substitution would be adequate. No gua.
rantee whalever would affOrd sufficient security ;
the occupa'tioo of that post by any other Power,
however tespedahle, or any thing shott of adual
occupation; by her own troops, would answer
tire. necessary purposes of Great Britain. He
iinpreased the consideration of the immense accessions
- of territory- and power made by Irrance, ever since
the Preliminary Treaty, and he insisted upon' the
importance, and even the necessity. of Great Britain
possessing a ii#4t in the Mediterranean, the more
especially in contemplatioft of the increased power and
territory of France. While engaged in this part of his
subjea, the Noble Lord stated his opinion, that the
subjugation of Switzerland gave France a greater
prepondetante in .Europe than any of her other con.
quests, not even excepting the Law Countries, and
was or more importance ta Great Britain, with the
eXception
,of • the latter acquisition. TN's Marin-
ipg change of Continental circumstances, would
have intitled this, Country to come to a new ad.
justment with France, and to recur, if neces.
sary, to the alternative of Arms. He concur.
red in every thing in the Declaration, as to the
justice and necessity of the War : he expatiated
upon the ill-Oreas to Great Britain of exclu-ling
tier from the Continental System, which he termed
a new species of political communication : he ten.
eyeed 'the, etinduet of Ministers' in some points of
view. As to the affair of Bseitzeland, he entered
into stains disciyiSion of the. Point Ito prove .that the
orders sent out 'with respect - to the Cape must he in
contemplation of the condo& of France respeding
Switzerland, as the pretext of its being on account of
she French Tronps in Holland, was done away by the
tad of their having surrendered that Posr, without
receiving any security for their being withdrawn.
}le entertained no objection to speedy negotiation,-
,but let us take care not to abdicate our rights ; let
•:44iegotiation betas soon.as praticable—let the security
41 the Country be cliietiy looked tti, and if these
ro,ints catiltot be gained by negotiation, let us be
peer ared for a brave and many resistance.
Earl GROSVENOR, in 'the course of Isis obser.
vations upon the 'points in discussion, advanced, that
Never was a War conducted with .greater energy,
spirit, and abilities, than the late War. He ex:.
pressed his surprise at such Propositions being
brought forward after the sense of the House being
so fully expressed, as it was a few night since
such a line of proceeding appeared to him to he a
departure front the Noble Earl's own views, and on
that ground he thought is would be adviseablc in
him to withdraw the Proposition. He thought nn.
`thing of the kind should at the present be urged, as
It must tend to cramp the exertions of Ministers.—
With respea to the idea of a Vote of Thanks to
Ministers, he thought they were fully satisfied with
what had taken place—r 4 cry of" Pear I" from the
Miniftterial Bench)—such a_ proceeding would lie
thought be unnecessary : the Noble Earl concluded by
observing, that he must ,be under the necessity of
negativing the Resolution, were it not Withdrawn.
Lord POLTON delivered his opinion at some
length, and adverted to the impropriety of adjourn-
ing she decision upon such questions as the present ;
upon gerierai topics, such as the state of the Nation,
Sze. it may eroperly enough be done ; in the
preient case the utmost unanimity was desirable,
and they should enable Ministers to call the ever.
};lee of the'Country into aCtiona-allis Lordship re-
ferred to what hail been said of the Treaty of
Amiens, and seemed to vindicate that measure, as
one justifiable, under the circumstances of the case ;
with respect to the propositions of the Noble Earl,
be, on the whole, deemed .liiinself warranted in
". giving. his negative thereto.
The Earl of WARWICK took occasion to repeat
Isis sentiments respealing the Treaty 'of Amiens,
which Instead of its effeating a Peace,'he'eonsiclered
merely as a Truce, and as a measure of experiment.
With respect to the question more tainiedtately• be.
fore the House, though lie agreed with many of the
points advanced by the Noble Earl, yet under the
present circumstances
ate thought it would 'be ad.
viseable to withdraw it, He was not aware what
good effeas could arise from such discussions-at pre.
sent; they would give at least an appearance of
division in the Country, at a ;time when.the most
general and decided unanimity was essentially ne,
cessary, -
Tht Earl of SCARBOROUGH delivered hia'
sentimentsabut in such a tone of voice, as precluded,
US from hearing him distinaly ; all we could cellea
twin the' Noble Earl was, that he had given toss

1

support to the late Administration on the ground,
that it had saved this Country, nay, the World,
from more than annihilation.

Laid DE DUNSTANHLLE called the attention.
of their Lordships with a telerenee to the. Treaty
of' Amiens, (whiCh he now considered as dead and
hauled), to the unfavourable circumstances of the
Country when it wa's made : were Peace not then
.made, tire Tables of both Houses of Parliament
would have been covered with Petitions the next
Session, which would lead to the conclusion of Peace
under still unfavour.d circumstances. -His
Lordship then proceeded to rather a dztaiied discits.
sion of the subjea in question ;
.adverting to
the prominent i.iarts of the Negotiation, vindicated
the contiat of Ministers thereon, for which, instead
of Censure,• he deemed them intitled to the Thanks
of the House.

The Earl CARYSFORT on the ,other side,
entered into a .detailed review of the subjea at con.
sidcrable length, and censured Ministers for most
of the prominent parts of their condua; he cen.
cured the late pacification, and contrasted the.situa.
two of the Country prior to that period, in point
of acquired territory and extensive force, with its
present-.situation.--On these grounds he felt it his
duty to support the resolution.
The 'Earl of DARNLEY after a short explani.
lion between hini and the Noble Lord .who spoke
last, as to his conception of a particular part of his
Lordship's argutitent,. expressed his acquiescenct.
with what had fallen. from a Royal. Dike, as to the
miscondtia of the late Ministers with resped to the
War. In regard to the question b4re the House,
he considered it in a great degree to island upon the
consideration, whether Ministers had early enough,
(after they had signed the Preliminaries in a spirit
of ample concessiona taken their stand, with firm.
ness and spirit, against the aggressions and encroach.
ments of France ; whether by such a line of con.
duct they might not have preserved Peace, or, in
the other alternative, gone to war with' greater ad.
vantage. On- these grounds we understocil his
Lordship to say he had no objeaion to vote for the
first resolution, though in other points of view, he
would willingly support Ministers ;.they appeard to
possess the confidence of the Sovereign ; he hoped
they would profit by their recant experience, and
condua the War with .spirit, vigour and energy,
to an honourable and successful termination.

, Lord 'HOBART was anxious principally to' pd.
dress the House, in consequence of what had been
repeatedly said on the subject of Reductions-,lie
felt himself called upon to state the real fads: he as.
sured 'theirLordships, no reduCtions had taken place
except in unavoith4de cases : The Militia, they
knew, could not be kept up, neither could the Fen.
elide Corps—a number of Men whose services were
only temporary, were also -discharged many of
these Were afterwards enlisted on high bounties, A
considerable ReduCtion was made .with respect to the
Cavalry, grounded on doubts of the best Officers,
that even during the War, that part of the Esta_
blishment was much too high held in his hand
a detailed specification as to thOse points, signed by
the Adjinant,General.- .With respea to the Naval
reduaions ; a comparative statement of the Naval
force of the Country in the-years following the pa.
cifications in 1763--.-83, and after the late War,
taking it on the Bth of March last ; at the first of
those periods the aggregate number of Ships of
War in Commission (so we understood his Lordship)
were 161,. at the second 13+, and at the third 538.
The Noble Secretary then adverted to the affair of
Switzerland : he stated the particulars of the con.
du of Ministers on that. occasion, and in which
he believed the. Public would go along with
them. He next touched upon the proceed.
ings with respect to the., Cape, in which he also
defended the -.conduCt of Ministers with great abi.
lity, and entered into a calculation as to the real
value of the Cape as a naval station in time of war,
and as a port for the advantage of our East India
shipping. In either view he seemed to agree, it
was nut worth the enormous expence which attend.
ed the holding it; and, above all, under the circum.
stances of the case, 'it was not a consideration of
that nature and importance as should induce them
to risk a ren,,wal of War, and under the injurious
imputation of their having violated the Treaty upon
its account. There was another point on which
he was anxious to explain : he understood it had
been said in another place, that he had refused
to confer with the Maltese eputies, and the reason
assigned was, that 'he was apprehensive of giving
umbrage to.the French Government ; he was indeed
almost ashamed to trouble the House upon this
point, but it was treated by some as if entitled to
credit; under that impression he must distinctly
state that he had never made any inch declaration,
or ever had authorised any other person to make one
for him. So far from it, he had had two interviews
with these Gentlemen, one at his own house and the
other at his office.

The ,Earl of SUFFOLK made a few observations
with respeit to the reduitions which had been made.
Lord.Gk.ENVILLE went into a general review
of the conduit of Ministers at considerable length.
lie charged them with negleCling to make thosc
adequate representations against the repeated insults
and aggressions of the French Government, which
had they been made they might have prevented
the calamity of , War, whilSt if we had been
then forced into a War, by the refusal on the
part of the French Government to make reparation
we should have enteted into it with the advantage
of haVing our'Cunquests still in our possession, and
our Forces undisbanded. lie repeated the charges
before made against Ministers as to their conduit
with lesiva to Switzerland, Malta, the detention
of the English Vessels in France, the arrest of Cap-
tain D'Auvergne, and various other points ; and
concluded .by, expressing his entire approbation of
the Motion.

The Earl of DARNLEY, Earl GR,P6VENoit, and
Lord CR114%, 1 LLE, severally explained.
The LORD CIaNCELLOR entered at consi.
derahle length into a 'justification of the eonfititiof
Miniiters. , He'deprecated the introdudion of the
Treaty of Amiens, and the eondua ,of Ministers
antecedent to that event, into the Debate, as Parlia
ment had already expressed their approbation of (hitt
eonclat and of that. Treaty. lie contended that
adequate representations had been made by,Minis.
ter§ Jgainst the insults and assrets:iutts of the

French Clvernment, and having gone over all the
topics ‘vhich have been before urged on the same
side Of the question, he concluded hy.an appeal to
thel-fouse and the country kr a vigorous ptcsecu.
Lion of the coniest into which we were forced by
the hostile multi& of France..

Fad SPENCER 'supported the arguments of Lord
GRENVILLE, and declared his aliprobation of die

. Lord 'PELHAM said a few words relative tf) the
arrest of Captain D'Auvergoe, which he said was to
he attributed to his assuming the title of Prince de
'Bouillon at Paris.

Lord GRENVILLE explained,
The lionse then divided on the motior :
Contents - 17
NotiContents 86

'Majority 69
The other Resolutions were put
.and negatived
without a division, and the •House adjourned at two
o'clock this morning.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
MONDAV, JUNE 6.

. 4
second Report. from the -Commissioners to inquire in-
to Naval Abuses was presented, and ordered to be rutted.
Several Petifions• were presented from the Silk Nianufac-
turers, and from the Al3llUradtUrgrs of Earthen Ware. against
the Consolidation Duty Bill—Ordered to lie on the Table.
A' Report was made from the-CoMmittee appointed to.try
and determine the merits of the Election for the County of
Radnor, stating, that the Committee we,;e of opinion, that
the Sitting Members were duly etched, and that the Peti-
tions were not frivolous or vexatious: •
TheShip-Burning Bill was.read a third timeand pasSM-
VANSITTAttr tr)Qlr,:gi, that the House should to-mor-
row, resolve into a Committee, to tzke into consideration that
part of His Majesty's Speech of. November last, which re.
(steels() gfahtinggreater aceomModation to 51ercantile Per_
sorts--Ordered, • • -

Mr. VANS ITTART said, he wished it to be understood,
that the two Notices of Motions which stood for this 14Y,
viz. The one rehting to the Funding of Exchequer NM--
and the other, respecting the employing of -oreign .Seamen
on board our Ships, were waved for the present.
The Ship, Passengers' Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Militia Pav Bill was read a first time.
The S ECK ETARY at .Th4R, on moving that the Bill
should be read x second time to-morrow,, said, that though
it was nof usual to print hills of this description, yet he
should move that this Eel be printed, hccatiseit was in.some,
degree new-modelled, and extended to ScOtland.-LOrdered.
to be read t second 011ie to.onorro*.
The Ordnance Lands Bill went .through a Committee,
Report was brought up, and the Bill was ordered to be read
a third time to-morrow..
The-SECRZT.IRY Jr WAR moved the Order of the Day
for going into a Committee of Supply. He also moved
the several Estimates which had been presented, tespe6ing
the Army and Ontnanc6, should be referred to the said Cum.
mittee.—Ordered. •

The House nevine resolved itself into a Committee of
supply,
the SECRETARY rat WAR said, that in rising.
to submit to the consideration of the Committee
the remaining. Army Estimates, he wished ro ob-
serve, that they consisted of two parts :—Otie of
them related to those Estimates that were not pre-
sented to the House at. the commencement of the
Sessions. They were the 'usual Estimates for Sup.
elementary Officers, Pensioners, at the Royal Hoe.'
pitals at Chelsea and Kilmainhato, the Royal Mill.
tary College, and the Military :Asylum : These
Estimates•could nor be presented belbre, because
the whole, of the expence could not be ascertained
until the seven Garrison Battalions- were complete.
The second head of •Estimates related to some aug-
mentation that had been ordered in the Regular
Forces, the Militia and Supplementary Militia, ansl
to some further expences which had taken place in
the Barrack Department. These Estimates 'which
related to the Supplementary Offieers, Pensioners et
Chelsea and Kilmainham, &c. were the same as be-
fore.' The lixpence of the Royal Military College
Was greater than that of last year, it amounted to
lit fol. This increase was owing to a second Com-
pany of Cadets being formed. This Institution be.
log found to answer so well' all the purposes for
which it was formed, it had been thought expedient
to add a second Comptes, of Cadets. Any body
wilt) considered fairly the nature of this Institution,
would, he was sure, agree with him, that it was an
expence well laid out on the part of the Public. 'He
trusted that it was an institution that would he con-
stantly kept up, as it.atorded to young men destin.
ed for the Army, better means of instrudion than .
they could obtain in this Country : he hoped also,
that it would always be managed wittoeconomy,.
and without any partiality or favour. He now
came to the Royal Military Asylum ; for this
service be should move for a Sum of 3 t,oool.
of this sum 2.1,0001. was to be applied to cPM-
Om the building. . was - sorry to ...say,
that the buildings which were completed, cost
more than had been originally estimated, though:
every attempt had been made to make-the estimates.
as accurate as possible—This inerease'of the expense
beyond the estimate arose partly from this circuM.
• stance, viz,-that soon after the estimate was formed
the dispute with the Northern Powers took place, ,
which caused a great increase in the price of many
of rite articles used in the building—Thlie how-
ever, would lie hoped he the whole expthce of the
building, and he shauld only ask io,bool. for fitting
up the rooms, Sze. He came no* to the accord
head of estimates, vix, those which related to the
augmentation of the . forces.—"fhe augmet tation •
which had been ordered was not to a very con-
siderable extent, for the Commi tee. would recollea
that when die Army wets voted in ptceleber last i t
was upon an unusually . high establishment's the; .
highest that ever was propesed in timeof Peace, It
was thought that completing the Array by a-stnell
augmentation would be- suffiden tee-as the Army Voted t.
%4/as 130,000 men.--The augmentation that would '
take. place, would be principally in the Cavalry. The
Committee would recalled, that by the:plan which
he proposed in December last, ten men per troop
of the Cavalry were to remain dismeunted those
men were now to be mounted, and theii place toile
supplied with Recruits ; this would' thaleer: eo men
per troop. There was also to be an augmentattonin
the Foot-Guards. The next otigmentation arose from
a regulation which had been adopted ofabolishing the .
Field Officers haying Companies ; in consequence:
of which there would be three additional Captains
in each Regiment. He would not now enter into
any arguments upon thepropriety of this regulation,
he would only say, that it was one that met 'With
the approbation of the mot experienced Officers of A:my ; by this plan, the dteatien of , Captain
Lieutenant would be abolished, and he would' of
course have one of the ehree Companies, another of
the Cornpaeies. was to, be given to a Captain on
half pay ; and the senior Lieutenant was to have

the third Company on condition of mishit
men, anti the senior Ensign to succeed him on raisit
•To men. The expence of this measure would 1
about 35,0001. viz. 26,000 fin Great Britain; al
noon for Ireland. The greatest part of slit e:
pence of these Estimres arose from the Militiai,
amounted to a SUM of 1,267,0001. for Great Br
lain, and 4.80,4971. for Irela: d. Contingencie
13,3451., Cloathiog;:- 43,89.11. The Militia
Great Britain would amount to 60,893, Supplerno
tary Militiaa 24,000, making (exclusive of Office:
Non.commissioned Officers, &c.) the number: i
reek and file -above 73,000 men. The t
Ireland, amounted to. r 8,000 men, making alter
!her above 90,000 Mtn. And he was happy
say, that a, very short t irre indeed would elapse. be
foie they were ell embodied and fie fur service.,
The additional expence ftir the Supplementatr
Mi
, litia, would amount to 416,0001. the additiontil.ea
eence or the Barrack Department le,oool. Makin
the total expellee for Great Britain, 2,540,00dita4,
for Ireland; 570,0001. being altogether, 3, t to,ooo
Having thus stated the general items, ,he woultrat
trespass at present any longer upon the ComMitre
but would 'be perfeelly ready to give any Gentle
mail every information in his power. He then elove
his first resolution.
Mr. WINDHAM said, he did not rise to Or
into,any detail upon the subjeCt ; he had no obiec
(ion to the details which the Right I Csealieinat
had gone into, except one, which appealed in
calculated to revive the praCtice of raising moll
ar
rank,
,hewshhicohul,wia,ashvi,;osdoubeijeivae
toofits.uchlitnl,ea;:srorteeinietttlreca.
•to in a time of Otessity,- when tht inconseairsl4
, whiCh it was calculated to produce was nut fareter.n
but he should be sorry to see it revived again• lit'
obj•et in rising was not so much to commelllq!'
the details which had been laid before the CUti
as to take the opportunity which the Army
mates always afforded of making some übservatieni
upon_ the War, and the general J,llc of the
try
The first' objet. upon*. which hr shoulti
ntII
any iiliservations; was one upon w`eich he IF
aouChed on a fortilei occasion, he Meant the
piety 'of IniVing so large a 'part of our forre.lia
consist of Militia. He thought the scale upon '111„
it was proposed to form the military force was
because the population of- the Country was 'lce
that it would not afford a large Militia and 1,10
Army, and if the Militia was to consist 01
great a number of 'men, it would dry up the .tr:
.sources for recruiting the Army. In Mai • the. Pfi
position that was now 'Made would have this
;
fed, it would- stickle the Militia and drY•nuista
the,Army.s. If such large bounties were givc,";
men for the Militia, who were only to serve
ing -she War, and to remain at hoittei 44°,4;
undoubtedly prevent the recruiting for the
—Bur it would not only ,keep the AlloYes: ft
stand, but would make it go backwataisil°,'44
would encourage men -to desert from the. Art:o,o
obtain the high bounties in the Militia; and ii!alea
perleftly well known that men made a trade °_,.,aass
praCtiees. One reason, perhaps, why illeAtjata.
such a partiality for augmenting the ogre
meth, was, that the money with which rtie. to,
alencvliettlitetrietrneoitt vic.oanslethoiltiightitleirsi:Pc of
ouidlia%ll :1•*711/3°14
nn°° to. „owasttee
notice. -.But . his g meta! d of f an
was, that it would-creme a Militia instea
.v..a
Army, This appeared to hini to be an. tint
.:0,
oh onion ; however, would in some degreeiv de
pend upon the purpose for which the in
in en e
• o's
wanted, and the nature of the War in tea
were engaged. It was the duty aorrusteo
• the first
with the Government of the Country, in
of tho
place, to form in their own minds the nature
re.;
War Which they were to 'carry on, anti then !iti
gulate the Public Force accordingly. Reas°lli,
this manner, and supposing those were 111 c Freis
ciples upon whiCh Ministers Wed, it was
to form a notion of the nature of the War
establishments which they proposed of- ti°
they meant to carry on, from the nature
of. those
sneering the subjeet in this poitofati°essl7,aketisEidtlra::
etl hint no cumulation, 'because upon the IT°
caaj,
which was proposed (though indeed wait ;1 if
they had no plan at ail), he was led• to infer to
a as if ther
it,hreoav'e h ared.rnopetiec4c it teas
had gone into the War without as all can't -ryc a.
the nattire of h.--After endeavouring to in,ese
PeaceasiOng- ass they could,
theyau lhr, were. forced into a War, ar'" aral
sermett to consitletli just like any other Wa%araa.
thought they did enough if they took the rnears of.
USUAL upon such occasioes; such as isanitee, L',tte
• Marque and Reprisal, callieg put the Militia' 'd to
It, however, they. had any plain at all, it ieetitTleere
be one of atria defence, toat as to say, we 's's „a(
wait rissii,ely until we could find. an opeortoiie'd
of :sneaking into a Peace, as we had, just snt'ciases,
and looget taaft:ley
out of one. we voluntal;ly ceolinea '"'„risn'itinr•
to 'Lis sett of War, it, would be, in his ior;t-olt,
extrenitly impolitic ; but it we were forced
our situation_ wits deplorable indeed. Ti'e
all con hi conditions in which a con:stilt' or an jow'ssiblo
could he placed-in, .was one in which i r `'as Prolate
toltse all, and Mir :asible to win any thing. which
was not allinstance to las:found ih history In.f
a NAtiOrl- successfiilly carried on a sYscetn of
defence.- Every khew the . advrragh.ea antis
assailtots- had over thole whom they attilCb,,e'Tf
that which was true of individuals was true All
Natkm.• He now Came to consider how far svo
force as was now proposed was good all a Llefe:uf
force. It appeared to him that for the porpoe,,.o
defetices you iti on)fr
as pdssible, because , regular forces cots •
• 0.
a cut
opposed by regular forces--it was diamon aiana,
ought to have as large a reg1i140,14740
tnc:nd.
Rut even adOpting
stets were eating upon., be would contend 1!).41$0;,
would not have Militia et;uugh, supposing that
ases
could realize the number of men that. they hat{ pro'`
rida°
posed, and an invasion took place.
de to ro'-
the system therar,.`„ta
t.
mean time that such exertions were inA eo,A, rrilf
an inetfet.tual force, the recruiting. of ti.i
woo:
would be essentially impeded. If at last it id:
he necessary to hive recourse to more octet!! onflidi
beg 0'
it would; in his opinion, be better ular °I •
energetic means of raising she force of ;lie !with
flya.would have a forCe still less regod.i6
the Militia, Militia, but one that should "at me such
way of 'the recruiting of the Army. 0