The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-19 00:00:00

JUNE l9, 1858.

he most serious risk of misunderstanding in cases of member for London. Thebestanswerto theviolent speeches
vessels in such seas, whereas, on the coast of Africa, in the American Senate was to be found in the calm and dis-
where commerce is much more scattered, it was much passionate manner in which English statesmen expressed
easier at once to ascertain the character of suspicious their opinion on the subject. Without conceding the
vessels than where they mere among a number of other principle to which the noble lord had alluded, and which
vessels pursuing lawful commerce. It is therefore under
had not been conceded, the (the Ministers) had written to
the consie station of the government whether it is - . s
the American Government telling them of the abuses of
not much more desirable at once to vrithdrave that
squadron ? The original plan of having a squadron their flag and the abuses that had been committed, and
there was adopted on the suggestion of the American asking them to confer on some mode by which those
government, and neither they nor ourselves at that time ' abuses might be corrected. They had not, as yet, received
saw the objections that it was liable to. The last an answer to that proposition, but he was induced to think
question is whether any additional instructions have I it would be received by the American government in the
lately been sent out ? In reference to that question there I spirit in which it had been sent. He believed that the go-
are the instructions referred to by the hon. member for vernment of the United States would feel convinced that
Birmingham, which were issued during Lord Aberdeen's the interests of civilisation required that a united course
government. My right hon. friend at the head of the Ad-
should be determined on. So far from being annoyed, he
miralty found it reecessary since he came into' ace to give
should rejoice at hearing of American ships of war being in
even more stringent instructions for enjoining greater
caution and discretion on our cruisers on the coast of , the waters of Cuba, as their crews would see what was
Cuba. Whether there were any instructions in the mean taking place, and would act with the promptitude and
time which gave rise to increased vigilance on the part good faith to which tho noble lord the member for Tiver.
of our cruisers, lam not disposed to say ; but I can say ton had borne witness. Another reason he had for hoping
for the present Government that our earliest efforts a satisfactory solution of the present difficulty was, that
were directed to enjoining the greatest caution and in all great questions of policy as between the two nations,
prudence on the part of those engaged. I can only fur- the government of the United States and her Majesty's
ther say that, expressing as I am sure I do, ant only the
ministers were in complete accord. People in this country
sentiments of every gentleman in the house, but of the . . .
witnessed without any jealousy, the expansion of the
people of this country, that a more fatal thing to the , '
United States, nor did we find in the general tenor of
civilisation and happiness of the world oould not occur
than a misunderstanding between ourselves and the American policy any cause of distrust. And feeling that
United States ; and I believe that meeting the case as there was, generally speaking, amongst the public men of
we are disposed to do in this candid spirit, the Aceeri- America a desire to cultivate friendly relations with the
can people, when they know the truth, I believe, I may government and people of this country, they did not allow
say, I confidently hope, that these differences will be any occasional ebullitions like those which had of late
satisfactorily settled. (Cheer.) prevailed to induce them to believe that the established
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that from the position he held policy would be disturbed. The matter now in dispute
in the house he thought it advisable for him, very hum- was only of a very transient character, although there was
bly, to express the views he entertained on this question. no doubt but that if it were treated in an irritable spirit
He did not think the time of night was any obstacle to it might be more dangerous than its original character had
his stating it. He thought that if properly understood led people to expect.
Mr. WARRE said that if our squadron were to be with-
by the American people it would lead them to a very
different conclusion to that which they now entertained. drawn from the Cuban waters, and the Americans seat no
other in its place, there would, he feared, be direct en-
At the present time there were two peoples at the head
couragement given to the slave trade.
of the civilisation of the world, and they were going on
Mr. FITZGERALD said that the withdrawal of our
in their course towards civilising mankind ; they were squadron had not yet been decided upon; it was as yet
identical in language, they had the same institutions, under consideration.
and nearly the same government ; they were derived ASSISTANT BARRISTERS (IRELAND).
from the same origin, and were, in fact, one nation. If Mr. I. BUTT asked the Attorney-General for Ireland
in the course of these two peoples any obstruction arose, whether it was the intention of the Irish Government to
it would be the business of those who wished well to man- bring in any bill to make better provision for the retirement
kind to brush away that obstruction, and to keep these of assistant banisters, and whether any such measure had
two peoples friends. He thought the statement of the been prepared either by the present or late advisers of the
hon. gentleman was in accordance with that sentiment. Irish Government
1 suffered Lord lsitnenlArlsnllfriot wasfrom
a of felt
retention
otheo
f interestste
:,
He had in the most conciliatory manner stated the views
of our Government on this question. No one word had as-
sistant barristers to an advanced age, in consierqsueeance oyf the
fallen from his lips, either derogatory to this country or absence of .any retiring allowance. If time permitted, Go-
insulting to America. (Cheers.) He had shown through- vernment would introduce a bill to remedy the evil dui,
out that he understood the delicate position in which we ing the present session.
were placed, and he knew well the great, he might nay, NETLEY HOSPITAL.
the overwhelming, duty that was now impressed on both Mr. TITE asked the Secretary of State for War when
nations in this behalf. He was quite prepared to allow the reports of the commissioners on the hospital at Netley
the great destine, sof America ; he believed that they would be laid on the table of the house, and whether any
were intended to be the great leaders of mankind ;he steps had been taken to suspend the works, or any part
believed that by t-ie position of their:country, their in- thereof? The hon. member stated that although the
healthiness of the site of the hospital had been admitted,
stitutioos, and by their character which they had de-
there were many faults in the design which required con-
rived from us, they were intended to be the leaders of
hroogrd thelan
iraodr works
awnouldnot
mankind. But he vas not one of these who wished to rweietthwunntilHaep
derogate from the character or dignity of England, and Sir F. SMITH defended the design arranged.ofthe hospital, and
he said the language used in the American congress on General PEEL said that the reports asked for would be
this matter was not worthy of gentlemen at the head of laid on the table in a week or ten days. With respect to
a great nation. There had been more of the Ancient alterations in the design, the officer who had charge of the
Pieta and of Bobadil kind of talk than became a works had received orders to suspend that portion in which
great nation. They had always assumed that England alteration was contemplated, until such alteration had
desired to insult her, but the speech of the hon. gentles been decided upon.
man to-night showed that we did not desire to do any-
This FUNDE
bill was read a se and E
ti BTme. BILL.
thing to give offence to our brethren over the water,
that we were desirous of maintaining our own dignity, SALE AND TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND)
and that we did not intend to wound their's at all. He BILL.
said these few words, because he had read with
The house went into committee on this bill.
great Onthethird clause, in which Government had inserted
pain the senti rents made by leading men in America. the appointment ofathird judge,
He said that we acting as a great people had only desired Mr. MALINS objected, considering that two would be
to put down that which we believed to be the great blot sufficient.
on humanity, the slave trade—(hear)—and that in order After a short discussion the clause was agreed to.
to do this, we had given instructions to our sailors. If, On clause 4,
in the heat of the moment, and in the desire to do their Mr. MALINS moved an amendment to leave out the
duty, young men had been induced to go beyond the words at the end of the clause, making the qualification
line, would a great people, a friendly people, have made 15 years' actual practice at the Irish bar ; his object being
that a reason for indulging in abuse of the county to make the qualification, as it was in England, 15 years'
y
from which they supposed those instructions had ems- standingt at the bar. The words as they stood would ac-
nated ? He believed that our force had merely done excludeCountryw agentlemaninctedor autco
success
ahoorf
this it was said the
their duty, and that the blustering statements about the Hargrave—who never practised atc 'the Irish bar, and he
matter were not true. The honourable gentleman believed never held a brief in the English courts having
employed a cant phrase to signify that they were not been previous to his appointment a conveyancer.
true, but he would use a shorter phrase, and he hoped The SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Mr. WHITRSIDR (who denied.
it would go across the water—they bad told lies, and that the whole benefit of the measure was due to Mr. Har-
grave, who was, however, in obedience to the general wish,
those lies had been told for the purpose simply of pan-
dering to bad habits. He was sure that the English specially retained), and other members, opposed the
people wished to entertain kindly feelings towards Arne, amisliedinamenent4;imaenndi awfatesrnseomateivdeitsicussion,
Tilea, He was sure that the people of England wished to Sir D. NORREYS thous
they ought to have the power
employ their great power—for we possessed great power, of securing the services of the best lawyer they could get,
though we did not beast of it—in the service of mankind, whether he were English or Irish, and he proposed that
(Hear.) If we wished toput down the slave trade, it was the clause should be altered for that purpose. He believed
not that he wished to hurt anybody, but to do what we as a rule the lawyers of this country were deeper read than
could for the benefit of mankind. We might have iiiju- those of Ireland, the reason being that in Ireland gentle-
dicious and generous officers, but he did not believe one- men of the legal profession practised generally in all the
half nor one-tenth of the stories that had been told, and branches of the law, while in Englsnd they confined their
he would not believe that Englishmen had done aught practice to separate branches. He moved that the last
that called on the Government to blame them for their sentence of the clause should be altered by inserting the
conduct in the matter. He was sure that the people of 7boarlsl i,;aor
practisedWestmilaster ," it would then read, ".who
the superior courts of Dublin or
England in this matter would maintain that great posi- Westminstr."
tion which they had ever hell. They were not to be Mr. WALPOLE suggested that the question should be
bullied out of their rights ; they did not wish to main- deferred until the report.
fain power they ought not to have, and they did not de- After a few words from Mr.:BAGWELL,
sire to do anything to incur the hostility of America, or The committee divided—
aoytbing to wound the feelings of our relatives over the For the amendment
water; but while they would do all things proper to Against it
conciliate those on the other side of the Atlantic, they Majority -----87
would take care of their own honour and dignity. The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 5-12.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that there was no doubt On clause 13,Mr. HAMILTON stated that the court would be self-
that the house would give the credit due to the Govern- supporting, a tax being imposed upon the laud sold through
wont. (Hear.) With regard to the facts of the case, it the medium of the court. As it had been decided that
appeared that there was much that yet remained to be there were to be three judges, it was proposed that Mr.
known. The instructions, as ho understood, had not been otherM tletywsohoutdeacotAnz tao receive 3,0001. '131,00 Whena yjNerarr,l,nardtlele e
altered since 1811, except so far as this, that there had been ceased to hold the office, the' judges would receive 2,5001. Y
additional instructions advising caution. The original in- each.
structions were issued by Lord Aberdeen, after a great Mr. W. WILLIAMS asked whether the officers of the
deal of consultation with persons fully competent to advise old court were to be pensioned ?
and among others Dr. Lushington, and those instructions Mr. WHITESIDE said that every one of them would
be employed in the new court.
were framed in the most temperate spirit, and they were The clause was agreed to.
he believed communicated to the Government of the On clause 19, providing for the retiring allowances of
United States. For fifteen years those instructions had the judges,
Mr. WILSON asked if they would be entitled to the
been acted on in the most amicable spirit ; and the ques-
allowance after a certain number of years' service.
tion occurred, whether these complaints had arisen from Mr. WHITESIDE could inform the hon. gentleman
increased vigilance, perhaps an over-stepping of duty on that, whatever might be the case in England, it was not
the part of the commanders of British cruisers, or from the practice for the judges to retire. (Laughter.)
the unwillingness of the Americans to submit to the exe- The clause was then agreed to.
cation of those instructions, which for fifteen years had glaauussees2llwtaos3exnged.
been punctually carried out. In thesfirst place, it was the On clause 31,0 were
agreed to.
duty of the Government to restrain the overzsal of any Mr. DOBBS proposed that 72 words instead of 90 should
commander, and, as the hon. gentleman had said, it became constitute the folio of the court.
us-as a great nation, to repair any wrong which we might The committee divided--
For the amendment
have done ; but on the other hand, it would be for the wis- Against
don of the Government to devise, in concert with the Majority —los
American government such measures as might be necessary Clause 31 was then agreed to.
He thought that this was clear, that General Cass, on the On clause 31,
part of the American Government, felt that it might be " Sir E. PERRY moved to insert the fallowing words :
,
necessary to ascertain the nationality of vessels on the high And generally the examination as to all disputed factsshall be according to the rules of common law.'
seas. By the law of nations, or the comity of nations, this
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL resisted the proposal,
power was always exercised, that on meeting a merchant on the ground that in many cases the mode of proceed-
vessel you require her to show her flag, and might test her ing by effidavits was preferable ; but power was given to
nationality. It would never do for the American nation in employ viva voce examinations whenever it was thought
carrying on their commerce in the Chinese seas, where proper.
piracy prevailed, after a pirate vessel had plundered an The words were then negatived, and the clause was
American vessel, and perhaps murdered her crew, that agreed to.
that pirate vessel on being met should only have to hoist a Mr. BUTT moved to omit clause 38, which gave the
British ensign, and that that flag should protect her from judges of the court power to try issues of fact. Those
any examination on the part of American commanders,
learned gentlemen had had no experience at nisi prime,
offioue be fully occupied by the proper
As the hon. gentleman had justly said,here wore two great and
duties th
eoifr tthi le mould
nations having the sines purpose. He did not think that Mr. WHITESIDE defended the clause on the ground
too much weight should be attached to speeches made even of its similarity to a similar provision in the Probate
in the American Congress ; lee believed it was the interest Act.
of these two great nations engaged in the same work, and Mr. MILLER supported the clause. The power pro-
be hoped to hear that it was not their purpose to deviate posed t' be given was a most essential one.
from that line of policy which we had now followed for so After some conversation,
many years, he meant the suppression of the slave trade. The amendment was negatived without a division,
,
He only wished further to state the pleasure he had had and the a use agreed to.
in hearing the temperate and proper speech of the hon.
Mr. BUTT On clause 40,
gentleman opposite. moved to add certain words to give an
appeal to the full court from any ruling or order of a
Lord PALMERSTON—As some question had arisen as single judge. Such an appeal would be especially
to the cruisers sent out to suppress the slave trade on the necessary in new trial motions.
coast of Cuba, he must remind the house that that arrange- Mr. vnirrsE [DE could not adopt the amendment.
went had been adopted in deference to the frequently ex- The appeal to the Court of Chancery was sufficient.
pressed wish of Parliament, and in consequence of frequent There would be no advantage in establishing an inter-
deputations which came to members of the late Government mediate appeal.
urging that that course should bo adopted. The Under-
Mr. Sergeant DEASY opposed the amendment. If
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs also reminded the adopted it would onlylead to a waste of the judges'
.
house that the plan was suggested and counselled by t.' he time and the parties money.
On clause 41, regul Sting the proceeding in appeals,
American Government itself ; therefore there was nothing Mr. MALINS thought the time, thirty days, allowed
in that proceeding not founded on good grounds. It was for appealing was too short. He moved to extend the
always to be expected that those whose traffic was thus in. period to three months. '
terfered with should endeavour to raise a cry, and ho hoped After a conversation the amendment was adopted and
that it would turn out that the complaints which we had the clause agreed to.
discussion, was
47, after some agreed to.
hoard so much of had originated very much from such a Clause
been agreed to,
source. It was just to the American Government to say Clauses 48 and 50 leaving
that they had always not only expressed but manifested
T he CHAIRMAN reported progress
the same feeling, and that they had STANHOPE AND WALSINGHAM RECTORIES
acted up to their en- BILL.
i
gagements in regard to the suppression of that most
Th
abominable crime, the slave trade. The American Go- s bill was read a third time and passed.
COWLEY'S CHARITY BILL—HARVEY'S
vernment lead by law made it an offence liable to the
CHARITY BILL.
highest punishment ; and when the American Congress Theee bills passed through committee.
co-operated with the British Government in the suppres- BRISTOL MUNICIPAL CHARITIES BILL.
sion of the slave tra le the American officers did their duty This bill also passed through committee.
in the most efficient and amicable manner. (Hear.) There PO RTEN DIG AND ALBREDA. CONVENTION.
were many instances of the American officers preventing On the motion of Sir E. BUL\VEII LYTFON, leave
by their own action the abuse of their flag by Portuguese was given to bring in a bill to remove doubts as to the
operation of a core vention between her Majesty and the
and Spanish bandits and slave dealers of all nations. He
quite agreed with Lis noble fi lend the member for London, Emperor of the French relative to Porteudic and Al-
that it would be quite impossible to admit the naked rein- brew'.
RAILWAYS ACT (IRELAND) CONTINUANCE.
ciple that hoisting afl ig was to bo taken as conclusie o Lord NAAS obtained leave to bring in a bill to con-
proof of the vessel's nationelity. It was well known that tinue the Railways Act (Ireland) 1851, fn roe
ships carried the flags of every country to be used as eig- The house adj corned at 20 minutes to one.n year.
nals, and if they were allowed to identify themselves with ,„„_-.—..,—.............._.-...
whichever of these fl egg suited their purpose, commercial
nations would soon find the effect in the insecurity of their
trade. He did not understand the Under-Secretary for
Foreign Affairs to admit the principle to that extent. His
right lion. friend the late First Lord of the Admiralty in-
formed him that his instructions hail been sent to the
cruisers on the coast of Cuba differing from those in the
circular of Lord Aberdeen. These instructions, be (Lord
I'altnerston) believed had been framed in co-operation with
the American Government. He presumed that if any
fresh instructions were now seat, their purport would be
communicated to the house.

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Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had beard
with great satisfaction the observations of the noble lord the