The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-06 00:00:00

T TIE SUN LaNnoN,_ SATURDAY EVENING,NG, FEBRUA-RY 6, 1858.

isstorownng
oeoxupnretrsysi,otnhoaft fweeelimnguswt which
ence, but in this case, he was happy.—inhade Pre'eaefenremlicaedetointhhe
such marriages wer---------e often the result of political
acsonovneen•oii
it
likelymto eecure domestic I: circa mstance that had called it forth— that the people
affection, after a lengthened actina totanyc; between the I 'With him that allowance must be made for it in the
illestrioua personages, and. was The noble lord con- ) of the continent, not knowing the nature of our
hear.)
happiness. (Henry
fedouorntsy. stTemheohf
°goo.-
eluded by moving ' that the address should be presented laws, and applying to us the prineiples by which they
pal ere caanndn working
b car rei
to her• Majesty by the whole house, feeling satisfied that are bound, naturally form expectations which those who
1 d lini and learned gentleman wishes to anticipate a discussion
r's gratifying
state,to tt
vknowernratehnet areaprin cwi
go-
members
be to her Majesty herself. (Cheers) Hur or s p
that mode of presentation would be
which world more properly arise on Monday nes',
hers of the house as, he was authorised .
moved the addrese.
Mr. DISRAELI seconded the motion. He re-echoed when I shall movg to bring in the bill of which I have
what had been stated by Lord Palmerston' and con- given notice. I shall not allow myself to be led by his
chided by observing that he hoped when the day came example into a premature discussion of that measure,
that her Royal Highness became Queen o£ Prussia she but when I propose it I shall be prepared to state its
would be as popular amongst her subjects - nature, and the reasons upon which it is found. But I
jesty was amongst her English subjects. (Cheers.) must protest against the ground the hon. and learned
.111
The motion was then put and carried un.i _
mously. gentleman has taken. The hon. aud learned gentleman
and intemperate speeches, and
.assemble though they might have been read in F h
• • d till to-morrow at 2 o'clock, to .
ranee,
On the motion of Lord PALMERSTON, the house alludes to my violent
e would
was adjourned n their account the parliament of this coun-
try ought to be prevented from
taking any steps which
then for the purpose of proceeding to the Queen with urge that e
the address. otherwise, upon the merits of the case, parliament might
THE REFUGEE QUESTION.
think proper to adopt. Why, speaking of intemperate
Mr. ROEBUCK rose to move the adjournment of the
speeches, I might well say to the bon. and learned gen-
house, in order that he might bogie to ask the question tlemarn
of which he had given notice. He said :—That questions " Qil, 's tulerit Graechos de seditioue querentisr
is to know whether there has been any communication
(Cheers.) If any man alive more than another is in the
habit of using violent language against foreign countries
between the two governments of England and of France
it is the hon. and learned gentleman, who indulges
with respect to the alien laws of this country, cr with occasionally in the most unbridled license against almost
respect to any portion of our criminal code. The house, every government and almost every man alive. (Cheers,
I believe, will understand the reason why I put this and "oh, ob.") If there is anything upon which we
question. They must have heard that since the event pride ourselves in this country it is our freedom of
speech and that leads us so fan du
to ass over the
which lam sure inspired every Englishman with feelings nt, f
viols effusions of the hon. anduently p learned gentleman—
of regret and detestation—the recent attack upon the thus respecting the principle, which we may disapprove
life of the Emperor of the French—there have appeared of the manner in which he exercises it. (Hear.) I say,
in the pages of the Monikur certain addresses to the oit woulay, it would be most childish conduct would be most undignified in
in the people
dresses, naturally enough, were expressed in terms of of the people of this coun-
Emperor of France from the French army. Those ad- 1
ryt nhis country—if, because of certain violent expressions,
c
strong condemnation at the attempted violence against certain intemperate addresses made against the people
the Emperor's person, and also great indignation at the of England, they were to allow themselves to be swayed
authors of the attempt so made. Now, sir, if these from the course they might otherwise think right to
pursue in reference to their internal legislation. (Hear,
expressions had rested there, I should be the fleet to
sesepathise with and give my cordial concurrence t* hear.) We ought to make due allowance for the
every sentiment they contained. But from the French irritation which has been naturally excited in
army there came also accusations against England, as France. I will suppose that there issued from
though England were a participant in that attack upon Path; on more than one occasion murderers attempting
the person of the Emperor of France. (Hear, hear) I similar atrocities hereto those which have been attempted
will, with the permission of the house, state the imoiedi-
in Paris ; would not the peop:e of this country feel the
ate object of my question. Hon. gentlemen are aware
greatest indignation, and would they not be likely, in
that the Moniteur Is not an ordinary paper ; it is in fact speaking of such attempts, to go beyond that preeise
accuracy of expression which nations ought to be guided
otters is under the immediate
the Gazette of the French government. Ever
inspectiob of the y
Franca it by in their transactions with other nations ! I trust,
government
therefore, however we may disapprove of these violent
(Hear, hear.) and that government is the Emperor.
Therefore what appears in the pages of
expressions of feeling in France, that we shall make al-
the Ifeniteur i 3 the reflex of theopinions of the Emperor lowance for the circumstances under which they were
made—that we shall consider what would have been our
of France. Weil, sir, in the pages of the Moniteur
feelings in a similar case, and under similar circum-
there appear these attacks upon the English people, and
stances—and that we shall not be led away by consider-
one colonel of a French regiment of the line—full, I
ations of what may have been said by individuals in
suppose, of military ardour, and that loyalty which
France or elsewhere from that course which, upon the
he has no doubt exhibited to every ruling monarch
merits of the question, we may think fit to follow.
that has appeared in France—asks the French Ern-
(Cheers.)
peror to be led against that haunt, thatden,the re'paire
Mr. HORSMAN had listened to the speech of the
of homicide, meaning Eugland. Well, that
3fonlang,u age
is published in the pages of the official eur. noble lord with great attention, and must say that ke
It is published in fact by the French Emperor. Thatit is regretted the manner in wh ch he had referred to his hon
his opinion ; and I wish now to state lay opinion. (sk and learned friend, and the manner in which he had an-
laugh from the front Ministerial banishes, answered be !veered his question. He (Mr. Horsman) had intended
loud cheers from other partnof the house—mere particu-
to take no part in the discussion, but he felt that they
larly from the benches immediately behind Ministers.)
The French Emperor is the person to direct against ought not in justice to allow such imputations to be cast
England accusations of being the den of conspirators ; upon any member of the house as, upon a question in
and who could speak with greater knowledge of the which they were all interested, had been most unfairly
fact than himself 1 (Cheers.) Has he not enjoyed the cast upon his hn. and learned friend. His hon, and
protection and hospitality of England? (Hear, hear.) learned friend did not complain that there were indivi-
Has he not, teo, while so enjoying that protection and duals in France who had insulted the national character
hospitality, acted the part of a conspirator himself f of England, but that persons near to the Emperor, and
(L _ti cheers.) Did he not leave these shores armed who roust have his confidence, were those who had con-
with the great name of his great predecessor—the name cocted this charge against the people of this country.
of the great Napoleon—did he not, armsd with that (Cheers.) These addresses of the French colonels had
name, and with a tame eagle—(a laugh)—go to France been published in the Moniteur, the Government paper,
and there attack the throne of King Louis Philippe— and circulated under Government influence throughout
and did he not murder the man who in the performance France, to show to nn excitable people what was the lan-
of his duty opposed bins ! (Renewed cheering.) And guage the Emperor appeared to approve in regard to
this is the man who chooses to publish in the pages of the attack which had been made upon him, and is show
the Jfenseur accusations against England for being the to the people of Europe what were the terms in which
haunt and the den of homicides, where conspiracies are they might suppose the demand had been made upon the
hatched, and which ought, therefore, to suffer invasion. Government of England for future security against the
(Hoar.) But it is not confined to that—the brother of repetition of the crime of which the French Government
the Emperor of France (the Count de Morny) has chosen very properly complained. The whole grievance of his
in the Legislative Chamber of the French nation, to hon. and learned friend was, that it was the government
accuse England of being participant in this attempted of France—the authorities of France—which bad made
crime. And not only he, but the Count de Persigny, these charges; and on that ground it was that heattached
the ambassador of France—in England, in the presence an importance to them which he would not bad they
; emanated from mere private individuals, And then, as to
of Englishmen—has dared to make the Fame accin,ation
aye, sir, and in the presence of Englishmen he has not the manner in which his hors, and learned friend was in
been answered—(hear, hear)—the only reason that I can the habit of departing himself in that house. He hail,
conceive being, that the parsons who heard him did not like his noble friend, sat many years in that house with
understand him. (Cheers, and a laugh.) But I cennot his hon. and learned friend, and so far from being enr-
L,li,vs, the: :nee E..,slJhz,..au L:.L.I: hear' his county s) prised at his expressing him •lf in streng language, he
libelled, no matter by whom, without indignantly re- should be much more surprised if, with his feelings,
palling the accusation. (Cheers.) Those persons who under the circumstances to which he had called attention,
heard the Count de Persigny accuse England of being he had not done so. No doubt his hon. and learned
participant in the criminal proceedings to which I have friend had frequently expressed himself strongly, but it
alluded ought thereon immediately, and on the instant, if had always ben the expression of honest feeling and con.
they understood him, to have answered him. (Hear.) scientious conviction, independent of party ties and party
Theydid not; but I will. (Hear.) I will say to him that obligations. His hon, and learned friend was in the habit
no man more than I estimates highly the ailiaLea be- of casting his censuriebroadcast through the house, but
tween England and France ; but there is something I they had all become a :twinned from long experience of
estimate still more highly, and that is the honour and his integrity of purpose, and that while he was careless
position of England. (Cheers.) And so believing and so of what enemies he made, no man in the House of Com-
feeling, I would have told him that there was nothing mons was more free from personal enemies than his hon.
in the character of Englishmen that in any way weever and learned friend. (Cheers.) He felt, then, that his hon.
conduces to or lends a sanction to assassination ; there is and I,ainei friend had been somewhat severely dealt with
nothing in the history of the country from the beginning by his noble friend. His hoc. and learned friend hid
to the end that can justify such an accusation. (Hear.) expressed sentiments that evening which were his own,
No English King has fallen by the hand of the ae assin, for which he was re iponsible, and he was not the man to
though Kings of France have. W: have condemned a shrink from .the responsibility. But to say that his lan-
King to the block, it is true, but it was in open day. guage was habitually so strong that be was an example of
(Cheers.) Neither have we ever sent or hired anybody what ought to be avoided and was deserving of blame,
to kill any other sovereign for our own national sate • he (gr. Horsmau) could only repeat that, after a very
faction—privately, I mean, and by assaseinathin. (Gear.) long experience of his hoe. and learned friend, he be.
My answer to Count Persigny would have been that the Hewed that his worst enemy could not pick a hole in the
people of England are above assassination. When they whole of his political career, or cast a stain upon that
feel indignant they express it, and go to war, if neces parliamentary life which he had sustained with so much
nary, to vindicate their honour ; but they do not reek to honour and integrity. (Cheers.) He understood hisnoble
avenge themselves privately, or by secret expeditions in friend to say that there bad beers one despatch from the
steamboats, or, by assassins, make private attacks upon Government of France upon the subjtct of his hon.
any foreign government, or any foreign sovereign, and learned friend's question, and that it would be pro-
(Cheers.) They do not make conspiracies in London to duced. (Hear.) He did not know whether any answer
pull down a government in Paris. Their course is open had been sent to the despatch, but he presumed, before
and honourable in dealing with their enemies as with they came to the discussion on Monday, that they would
their friends. (Cheers.) When I came into the house have all the papers on the subject laid on the table.
yesterday, I heard in any ear something like an inspi. (Hear.) It would also be desirable that they should have
ration about a contemplated change in the Alien Act, the opinion of the law office_ sof the Crown —because if it
It was said that at the solicitation of the Emperor of the should be found that these functionaries agreed in the
French we were about to alter the Alien Act. I will say *pinion expressed by very high legalauthorities elsewhere,
nothing of the ingratitude of the man who now asks us it would be clearly manifest that the alteration of the law
to alter a law by which he has profited so largely. But they were to be asked to sanction was unnecessary, and
England owes her position amongst the nations of the that the existing law was sufficient for all purposes. This
world iu consequence in a great measure of the manner was a pant to which he attached great importance. But
in which she has treated the people of all nations who he would not anticipate the discussion, but trusted they
have sought the asylum of our shores. Napoleon, Met- would have all the information brought before them before
ternich, the Bourbon?, and Louis Philippe, have all they were called upon to deal with the question, so that
sought and obtained a safe refuge here; but no man they might he enabled to judge both as to the propriety
said, no man had a right to say, that we should alter our of the demand made by the French Government, and of
lama because we gave them tuat refuge ; and I say, if the concession which it appeared the Government of this
we change the law on this occasion we violate the first country were prepared to make.
Mr
principles of our constitution, we degrade ourselves
before the world, and are no longer the English panic) ' ROEBUCK (who was met with a cry of " Q.les.
that our forefathers were. Well, I come to the house lion") hoped the noble lord would consider the request h 3
with my ear full of this inspiration. What eas my sur- wee now about to make, that the despatch of the French
prise to hoar from the noble lord an anise' icemeent ti at Government should be laid upon the table, and also the
he would on Monday move for leave to introduce a bit answer of her Mejesty's Government to it, as soon as
for altering the Alien Act in regard to conspiracies.
What suggested to the noble lor possible, so that hon. members might have it in their
lord the necessity of such a
change ? Was it that any per. on of authority—for tl * bands before they were called upon to enter on the d's
-
noble lord, with all his accomplishments, is not a lawyer elusion next Monday. (Hear, hear.) With regard '
to
what the noble lord bad said of him (Mr. Roebuck), it
—had toldehe noble lord that the law of England could
not reach conspiracies, or that the punishment wnhichnes pas
Pa`-sod by him " like the idle wind, which ho regarded
the ameliorated lew of Eugland awards to such he
not." Ho asked the noble lord to point to any expression
was insufficient 1 For at least a quieter of a century we
he had used that could bear out the description the noble
i
have been doing all we could to render the criminal law
lord had given of the language he was in the habit of
using. (Hear.) He might have uttered strong opieions,
of England less bloody than it had previously been. A
quarter of a century ag
Dour criminal code was the most but he defied the noble lord to show that he had used
cruel in Europe, but from that time to this we have by viulent language—(cheers)—nor had he used such lan-
exrience learned that a mildpunishment certainly
guage on the present occasion. (Hear.) He would ask
admpeini,tered is the most effectual p
preventive of crime. the noble lord and the house to recollect what he had
said. (Hear, hear.) He had said that England had bee n
Our own domestic experience has taught us that. S% hat
Is now suggested by the noble lord ? Teat we should insulted, and that the insult canoe from the Emperor of
retrace our steps—that whereas conspiracies have hitherto France. (Hear.) Was there any violent language in
been visitel by fine and imprisonment, we should alt +r that ? (Cheers.) That was a strong statement no
doubt—but was not the evidence in support of it etreng
and bring back the law to the old standard of cruelty
aloe. (Hear, hear.) Wily, the people ef Eneand La i
which we had abandoned. My question to the noble
lord is one of very significant impertance. If England been threatened before—even in his time—not that he
could recollect it, for he was a child when it occurred.
wishes to hold her place among the nati n.s. if she wishes
still to maintain her own indepen is.nt position, no The great man who bore the name now held by the
r
solicitations of an ally, no thteatsreng of anybody,Emperor of the French—the first Napoleon—he, from
ought to lead us to alter our laws. I have been tell
toe opposite shore of the Channel, threatened England
that, as enjeenification for the i solence with
w hih with invasion ; and though he disagreed in the policy
England his been treated in this mutter, the noble lord's adopted by our ancestors on the occasion, he could not
but admire their towering thought, and the thoroughly
courageous dein mstratiou with which the menace of
Eigand should
speech at the Mansion-House in Nov. has been brought
forward. God forbid that the people of .
the great Napoleon, surrounded as he was by his legions,
aridlreswhafsreninase.he victories of Jena AuiterlOz, and
be made answerable for all the incliscretems of the noblo
lord,t (Hear.) He hurled defiance at him
I do not say, I do not behseioven,
.thbautt tandeminttoibnlge Vicuna
lord was imprudent on that occasion
;17 fouelut him aud conquered him ; and should we,
then had treated with contempt and defiance the
of France how very lit le the noble lord exproese
that he was, no man knows better tlea'n the Exporbor
counter menaces of Napoleonic Ge.tn,d, qu ill bsfere the threats
feeling of the people of England. (Cheers and
of A apoleon le petits. (Cries of question, and manicure
cheers.) If there was on that occasion a little un,naLe
cheeriew )
—a little vapouring on the part of the noble lord, it cin
LordbPALMERSION would lay the despatch from
scarcely be said that the people of England as a nation, the French Government on the table to-morrow (this
le to suffer for fie bad taste of the Minister. (Hear.)
day.) No answer to it h been tear.
We had publicly expressed our detestation of the attack
Mr. ROEBUCK thenad withdrewsea
his (motion for the
on the Emperor of Fiance, and I scant to know, there-
adjoerement of the house, and the subject dropped.
fore, what, could have induced bias to turn round upon
the people of England ac he has done, sod meeifest tuat ANNUITY
1 hostility which he has through his own prase, his own SIR IL HAVELOCK.
TO LADY HAVELOCK AND MAJOR
Minister, anAeloaltis. own ambassador shown towards this The hots -e having resolved itself into committee,
country:
the sunject of an Al;
(Rear , hear Toe question I Lace pet t)
the noble lord la —I .)
st n^ .a . ' •
been any CJire.i.),ll eon.
reed said—lt ell, be iii the recollections of the Lou .0 that
with the Court of Fre.: thereof l'
alteration of our The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose
France or. the Minister l' fence on
..e.a el, or upon the suhj -ct of any ia our short meeting before Ceri nines a gree,ious ineeeege
criminal code 'I (Cheers Islain' reach of her favour had bash
Lord PA.LIVIEIenTON -'
her wish that, as a u:
ark delivered to this house from her Majesty, stating
.
gentleman. I can have ran diffi •ulty in ibe dotes. urine e e
answering the queeteen of the is -
'
hire
e nbeyr alI
thisl
Thera 1,55
beau a
d,., 713, and learned mightybbeLetana,
bearingto M. da I taken into consideretion by this house, it
the French Minister of Foreign iAcfr
mireadirdlsed by I'lvioeuluseek. ' sTogillaetpurolevstgl
Persigny, the French ambassador her,,,, 1,0001. a year, and a bill founded upon that re elution
the late transactions at Paris, and " ❑bavnn
vesae:reed to grant to Sir H. Havelock an annh ty of
urginguirestrvon him the
take such measures as they in their wisdom6rmume"hti
necessity of applying to her Majevty' which took place upon that bill and uponadtlztkrnesoslinid
open was subsequently introducsd. During the discussionon
to a strong feeling was expressedtthaat,
may thank
an
be condo
ito Odic pt
or )geed , ,
ig rant
fit in reference to the citcurastance ; not to dictate ;rett'slasealmiebrlii!ndg'ajo'efstyp's,aGliao.
measures, but simply to put the case to her Majesty I meet tels"inutaredruce' .a
'POvrision for extending the an . uity
' Government to deal with ale they might think proper, for two lives—viz ,tat of General Havelock and of his
That is the nature of the despatch, and I can have no son, Unempply it has act been in the power of her
difficulty whatever in laying it before Parliament. Majesty's Geyer .naent to redeem that pledge, fur at the
(Cheers.) But, sir, in replying to the hon. and learned vueroytite that the dignity of a baronetcy was conferred
eentleman, I feel bound, in the first place, to repel the byp
the Generalou, Havel.ock, and that the annuity was voted
barge which the hon. and learned gentleman has made tio,,s i.
the service
he. had already fallen a victim to his exer-
c • -
the Count de .Count de Persign service of his country. The honour con-
against . Y ferred by the Crown
the British station of conspiring wit's wn and the bounty of this house could
never accused not, therefore, take effect
with intention to give pro- terday to and it became my duty yes-
nssassins--(hear, hear)—or move the
3" tl t h with •
stated eistmee y o er the hill which had b •
discharge of thorder for d•
e procee mg
tection to assassins. Ha r .
erdlgny stared to me the sulject
The Government, 11.jesty's Government—C.Dunt
, a however, being desirous

of carrying substantially into effect the recommendation
of the Crown, and being also desirous of acting upon the
understanding which had been come to with this house,
has decided on proposing an anniity of 1,0001. a year to
Lady Havelock. By a most gracious act of her Majesty
Lady Havelock has been placed in precisely the same
position as she would have been if her husband had been
alive when he was created a baronet, and we have
thought that we should be giving effect to the wishes of
this house by proposing a grant to her of 1,0001. a year.
We propose also to grant an annuity of like amount to
the present Sir H. Havelock. (lean) Now, Sir, I
think that this house would not hive objected to vote
an annuity of 1,0001. a-year to the present Sir H.
Havelock even if he were an undistinguished man, and
had merely succeeded his father in the ordinary manner
of hereditary honours, but I would call the attention of
the committee to the fact that the present Sir 11. Have•
lock has proved himself worthy of the gallant and heroic
deeds of his father, and has himself, ;n the course of his
military profession, rendered distinguished services to
his country ; and, looking to his own merits, I think
that the house will feel themselvesjuatified in conferring
upon him a token of their approval, (Hear.) I will
state to the committee what has been the military
career of Sir H. Havelock :—Brevet-Major Havelock
entered the army (Queen's service) as ensign in 1841,
became lieutenant the 23d of June, 1848, and captain on
the 9th of October, 1857. The Commander-in-Chief had
great pleasure in recommending him for his promotion
to a company shortly after the action at Cawnpore, and
recently for brevet rank of E. )r, no less as a reward for
his own gallant and meritorious services than as a tribute
to the memory of his gallant father, by whose aide he
fought in those numerous engagements which rapidly
followed each other in brilliant succession and terminated
in the relief of Lucknow. Major Havelock was deco-
rated with the Victoria Cross for his cool bravery at
Cawnpore. It was on that occasion that Major Stirling,
a gallant and di,tinlzuished officer, fell at the head of the
64th Regiment. Major Havelock's horse was shot under
him at Busserut Gunge on the 29. h of July ; he was
severely wounded in the right arm by a musket shot at
Lucknew, and been repeatedly mentioned in despatches.
I will trouble the committee with an extract from a
telegram from the late Major-General Havelock to the
Commander-in-Chief, dated Cawnpore, Aug. 18, 1857,
and which appeared in the London Qezette of January
the 15th—

of the personal merits of the present Sir H. Havelock it
would no doubt be the desire of the house that it should be
carried out. But he thought it necessary to add that the
present Sir H. Havelock was not an inefficient, inactive re-
cipient of this reward, but by his vigour and consummate
courage had carried for himself an honourable position in
the army. Ho did not mean to say that there were no
other officers as brave and distinguished, but that Major
Havelock was distinguished for his personal merits. These
were the grounds cf his observations, which ho did not
think were irrelevant to the question. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. INGRAM said that every one must agree that this
pension was rightly given, but be thought it ought to be
charged on the revenues of India. There were two parties
to these pensions, those who received and those who paid
them. He thought that the people who had stirred up the
insurrection ought to feel its effects and to pay for it. The
pension of Lord Dalhousie was charged on the revenues of
India, and why should not this be paid from the same
source ? At the same time he was far from saying that
Major Havelock did not richly deserve it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
was always the case that officers in the Queen's service
should have their pensions charged on the consolidated
funds. It was so in the case of Lord Gough, Lord Har-
dingo, and others. With regard to officers in the service
of the East India Company, the custom was to grant pen-
sions charged on the revenues of India ; and in the case of
Gen. Wilson, who had received the same pension as Gan.
Havelock, it was charged on the revenues of the East India
Company.

Mi. GRIFFITH said he had no fault to find with the
Government for the proposition they had made, for no one
sympathised more in the gallant deeds of that great man
than he did ; but it did happen last session that the forma
of the house praeluded discussion on the subject.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the house re-
sumed.

MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. H. HERBEILT said that ha had introduced this bill
in the early part of the session, but as he had received many
suggestions on the subject, he thought it better to with-
draw the bill and introduce another. He, therefore, moved
that the order for the eacond reading be discharged.
EAST INDIA LOAN.

Mr. V. SMITH, who was indistinctly heard, rose to
move for leave to bring in a bill " for enabling the East
India Company to raise money in the United Kingdom for
the service of the Government of India." He said that
the bill which he rose for the purpose of asking leave to
introduce had been rendered necessary by the emergencies
which had arisen out of the state of affairs of India, and
it would probably surprise no one, that in consequence of
the confusion which existed there, the East India Company
should come to Parliament for power to borrow money. The
bill was strictly limited to the necessities of the present
purpose only, and extended the powers of borrowing which
he should propose over this session and that of 1859.
The house might not perhaps be aware how the borrowing
powers of the East India Company stood ; and they wore
rather singular. In India the directors had unlimited
powers of borrowing, subject to the approval of the Board of
Control, but in England the Board of Directors could only
exercise borrowing powers tinder certain acts of Parlia-
ment, the Leta of which was passed in the reign of William
111. Their powers of boriowing in England were limited
by these acts to seven millions ; they had exhausted these
powers to the extent of four millions, and when the mutiny
broke out powers to borrow three millions only remained.
The ordinary course of Indian finance bad been inter-
rupted by that event, but the way of it was this. The
Government in India supplied all that was necessary for
expenses there, and the Home Government gave notice at
the commencement of every year what amount of money
was to be remitted from India, which was either received
in money, or bills were drawn on India. The mole of re-
gulating the supply of bills was, that when they were
superabundant they were checked by lowering the rate of
exchange, and when they wore insufficient the supply was
etimulated by raising the rate of exchange. That was the
manner in which money was received from India, and it
continued until the recent calamities occurred. Thee oc-
currences had naturally limited the supply in India, and
the Government there had given notice that four millions
extra would be required, and that only two millions was
available to moot bills. In the present state of affairs the
East India Company had to see how they could snake all
their resources available. In the autumn the Government
in India gave notice that no more bills must be drawn on
India, and that besides they should require a supply of
bullion. The directors replied that no more bills would
he drawn ; they also transmitted a million of bullion, and
they said they would give the Government in India a fur-
ther supply of a crore or a crore and a half of rupees if ne-
cessary. The Government in India wrote back to say that
in consequence of the way in which the Five per Cent.
Loan had been raised they would not require a further
supply of bullion. The difficulty in which the Board of
Directors found themselves was this. Their expenses
wore very great i • they had to pay for the transmis-
sion of all the troops which were sent out to India,
and they had been sent out in unusual numbers. It
was only by moans of their revenue at home that they met
this difficulty. The condition of these revenues was as fol-
lows (as we euderstood) : —About one million on cash ac-
counts, about 1 million its securities, 1 million in the 3
per Cen's., and 1,809,00 J in Exchequer Bills. All these
resources had been called in existence, and wore nearly ex-
hausted. He would here make a short statement of the
receipts and expenses of the year 185 S, and of the estimate
of receipts and expenses for 1859. The Tight hon, gentle-
man then, in a low tone of voice, read a statement of the
different items of receipt and disbursement, of which it
was impos,iblc to catch ao,turatt.ly a -itt.l.l item. The re-
sult was that a sum of about 9,500,000/. would bo required
for the service of the two years. It was in order to provide
for the raising of this sum that he now asked for powers to
the East India Company to borrow a sufficient amount to
cover it. The exact amount that would be required would
be about 8 millions, but as the Indian Government would.
probably require bullion to the extent of a million, ho pro-
posed to give powersto borrow 10 millions. The only other
alteration in tho law was, that proposals for the loan might
be received in England. Ho did not suppose that any ob-
jection could bo made to this proposition, for the house had
always shown a desire, since the disturbances in India, to
provide all means of meeting the emergency. Ile believed
this was the easiest means of providing for the emergency,
and in consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
and the best financial a'athorities, it had been thought the
best mode of raising the money would be by debentures
rather than bonds. He proposed that the security should
be debentures. As there would be so small a balance in
hand in April, it was desirable that this bill should pees as
speedily as possible, and he was sure the house would hevo
no objection to expediting its progress, and any information
that was required he should be happy to afford either in
private or in the house. The necessity for such a proposi-
tion had bees foreseen and came as no surprise on the
money market. The only reason why this bill
was not introduced in the short session before
Christmas was, that as parliament had met only for a par-
ticular
should b
b;purpose,ug
time before April, 185 S, fur its consideration.
Mr. T. BARING- said that he agreed with the right hon.
brought forward,ineaillr° swnheitl
e applicable awbl would
to o
d tbhaostupinurciiieonset
gentleman that there could be no doubt of the readiness
of the house to afford all means of mooting the present
emergency in India, and even to support, by grants of
money, the preservation of our dominion in that country.
But he must express his astonishment at the mode which
the Government had adopted to raise this loan. He should
rather have anticipated that the right hon. gentleman
would have prefaced hie observations by a decimation that
her Majesty's Government had abandoned all idea of le-
gislating for India. As the right hon, gentleman had said
that the bill would give borrowing powers to the East
Italia Company fur two sessions, he ought to have added
that it was not proposed to interfere with the government
of India for two years. To whom was this borrowing
devolve
teo?be ;ranted,
i,iielto and
iai,,l on
iniatwthmhoehewadouoldf the esp
erGovoenrsnibmileintyt
had given such distinct notice that it was notorious that it
' was intended to piece India directly under the Govern-
ment at home. What government was to borrow the
money ? The right hon. gentleman did not say that the
money was immediately wanted, nor in what manner it
was to be expended. Bat he gathered from the statement of
the right hon. gentleman that only a very small portion of
thelo,oo ),0001. was wasted for repayment of immediate
expenses or asleances, and that the rest was to be borrowed
successively at different periods as it might be required,
between the present time and the middle of next year.
Was the East India Company to exist till the middle of
next year as the governing power of India? If not, why
was the company to have the power to borrow and the
control over the money. Ile had always imagined that
the first condition of assent to a loan was that it was re-
quired for immediate and necessary purposes, and next
that it should be known by Whom the money was bor-
rowed, and by whom it was to be spent; and then
that it should be borrowed on the cheapest and most
favourite terms. Now all these conditions the hen, gen-
tleman hal failed to satisfy most mischievously and un-
constitutionally.Hte money ehasmkoendar Acinwoohrdig to p
who was totlie abve the
power of borrowing
re-
port the East India Company was in ex trernis. The house
ought not to give a dying body the power of borrowing
money, or disposing of money, or to confer such a power
on some body that was likely to follow. (Hear, hear.) The
money was to be borrowed in the course of a year and a
half, when, according to the declaration of the Govern-
ment, there was to be no East India Company, and the
future Government was unknown. lie did not ask the
right hon. gentleman to reveal the whole of the Govern-
ment plan, which might not yet bo matured, but he asked
him to lift up the corner of the veil, and to show some por-
tion of the marvellous wisdom of the Treasury Bench, so
fur as to show who was to have the management of the
loan. If the management was to be in the hands of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, he should have perfect con,.
fidence in his character and integrity i • but it would be
most impossible for him to watch the disposal of the
money. It must go through COMO ether channel, and if
the power should bo delegated to an agent, the money and
the paymaster-general might be cut away. (Hear, hear,
and a laugh.) Before granting the power now asked for,
the house, ought to know by what Government the money
was to be raised by what Government it was to be
spent, who wee to ba responsible, and whether or not it
was the intenliou of her Majesty's Government, in giving
to the East India Company the power of borrowing until
the middle of next year, to continue their authority until
that period. (Hear.) The best thing the Governmeir. could
do in the present emergency would be to refrain from agi-
tating the public mind by legislation on Indian affairs.
(Hear.) In saying this he expressed no opinion but his own,
for he hal Ili communication with the East India Company
on the subject, and wished to guard himself against being
supposed to know whether they were in favour of the bill
or net. In taking charge of their petitisn, in the general
sentiments of which he concurred, he was not committing
himself to the support of any policy, and would not have
undertaken the duty of presenting it except in the exercise
of an independent julgtnent. In the exorcise of that same
independent j tidenient he was commenting on the measure
of finance now under consideration. The right hon. gentle-
wan that the loan should be raised in England.
When a loan was filling up in India at 6 per cent. he could
underaand the necessity of borrowing money in this coun-
try. But he would ask, if the government of India was to
be the government of the Crown, why India was not to
leave the advantage of enjoying the credit of the country ef
which it was a pelt. Why refuse the advantage of facili-
tating in ludic the power of borrowing money ? He be-
lieved that money might be lent to India with perfect
veurity, mil that it could be reinibureed by gradual pay-
ments from the revenues of India. Whether the money
was lent directly, as had been the case with regard to other
00111)1r:es, or by guerenteo, it would be a perfectly safe
°aeration for this country, and a benefit to which India
was legitimately entitled. (Hear, hear.) Money had been
granted to Canada, to Demerara, and other colonies, not
only with great advantage to those colonies, but with secu-
rity to this country, and bad become a bond of mutual in-
terest between the colonies and the mother country. But
this was refused to India when this country was about to
take the government of India into its own hands. The
Government were chary of guarantees. But did they not
pi:a-4100a a loan to Turkey to put the finances of that
country in order ? Were the finaucos of India of less im-
port Ince, so as to induce the Government to hesitate the
granting of a luau to In lit r Why refuse to India the

"In the combat at Cawnpore, Lieutenant Havelock was
my side-de-camp. The 64th Regiment had been much under
artillery fire, from which it had sevoiely suffered. The
whole of tho infantry were lying down iu line, when, per-
ceiving that the enemy had brought out the last reserved
gun, a 24-pounder, and were rallying round it, I called up
the regiment to rise up and advance. Without any other
word froai me Lieutenant Havelock placed himself on his
horse, in front of the centre of the 64th, opposite themuzzle
of the gnn. Major Stirling, commanding the regiment,
was in front, dismounted, but the Lieutenant continued to
move steadily oil in front of the regiment at a foot pace on
his horse. The gun discharged shot until the troops were
within a short &stance, when they fired grape. In went the
corps, led by the Lieutenant, who still steered steadily on
the gun's muzzle until it was mastered by a rush of the
64th."

In that most gallant ?barge the commanding officer un-
fortunately lost his life, but Major Havelock happily
survived the daring attack. I will not trespass longer on
the attention of the committee further than to express
the hope that the resolution which I shall now place in
your hand:, sir, will be unanimously agreed to. (Cheers.)
The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving the fol-
lowing resolution, viz.

" That the annual sum of 1,000/. be granted to her Ma-
jesty out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britaiu and
Ireland, the said annuity to commence from the sth day
of February, 1858, and to bo settled in the most beneficial
manner upon Lady Havelock,
the widow of the late
Major-General Sir H. Havelock, of Lucknow, Knight
Commander of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath,
for the term of her natural life."
" That the annual sum of 1,000/. be granted to her Ma.
jesty out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain and
Ireland, the said annuity to commence from the sth day of
February, 1853, and to be settled in the most beneficial
manner upon Sir Henry Maraham Havelock, Bart., eldest
son of the late Major-General Henry Havelock,
now, Knight Commander of the Most Honourable Order
of the Bath, for the term of his natural life." of Luck-
Sir J. PAKINGTON thougi.t the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had correctly anticipated the feeling of the
house when he anticipated its unanimous concurrence in
this proposition. Amongst the events of the mutiny
none had inspired more sincere or more universal regret
than the death of the late Gen. Havelock. (Hear.) He
believed that throughout the country a feeling of grati-
tude was entertained towards her Majesty for the
honour she had conferred on Lady Havelock and her
son, and it was the general impression both in and out
of Parliament that her Majesty's Government were doing
no m ;re than their duty in recommending the House of
Commons to bestow these annuities on the widow and
son of the late gallant general. (Hear.) He entirely
agreed with the right hon. gtntlenaan, and he believed the
house would have concurred iu this motion, even if Ma.
jor Havelock had been an ordinary individual ; but on
the contrary, it was known that he was treading gal
lantly in the steps of his father, and every one rnu.thope
that he would continue his career of glory, and long enjoy
the reward given to him by his country.
Mr. KINNAIRD bore his testimony to the feeling with
which the country would view this reward to Major Have-
lock. He held in his hand an extract of a letter from Gen.
Havelock, in which he expressed his anxiety that he had
not been able to make adequate provision for his family—
for atter 42 years' service he had been only able to accumu-
late 4,0001., which, together with a small insurance on his
life, was all he had to leave. He was surd that when this
was known by the country, there would be a warm and
universal recognition of the propriety of the course which
had bean pursued towards the family of Gen, Hsvolock.
Mr. IiVNG expressed his cordial approval of the resolu-
tion, and at the same time was anxious to express his set.-
row for the loss, and his admiration of the services of Gen.
Havelock, whose character as a soldier, whether for bravery,
energy, and strategetical skill, had never been surpassed.
With the private life of Gen. Havelock it would be pre-
sumptuous in this house to deal; but it might be permitted
him to say that ho was the perfect type of a Christian hero,
and though unhappily he had not lived to be aware of the
recognition of his services by au admiring Sovereign and a
grateful people, ho had at least enjoyed the consciousness
of his having done his duty, and that his last act was that
were esteemed, as they al-
of rescuing a heroic and enduring garrison from a fate at
the contemplation of which every one must shudder. So
long as the highest Christian virtues, illiant courage, and
would be loved and admred.
Mr. GRIFFITH was far from desiring to disturb the
twhaoy Issiv,ghoresetimn ibliutgairsyntt,the capacitymemory
of General Havelock
i
unanimity of the home with respect to this vote, and there
could be no doubt the proposition of the Government would
be ratified by the feeling of the country. But ho wished
' to point out how the proper functions of the house had
money bill no amendment could be
been overlaid by the forms of proceeding iu such matters.
The bill was introduced yesterday, and they were in cam-
muni tcit,e.e , and
Lastyear
beinger
proposition of the Government was
not approved by the house, and yet there was no opportu-
nity of making any alteration in it. There was a difficulty
in the way of the house representing its own wishes ; and
it was only from the accidental circumstance of the
lam nted death of General Havelock that the house had
had time to propose a provision for his widow and son.
If the bill had passed last year this could not have occurred.
It was a question whether there should not be the practice
itwoth.
otm
wish
hadki
se distinguishedaiprovision
thought for
themselves in service. It was the
of General Havelock, awl mutt the widows of generals and officers
the .first thought of every general on dangerous service,
that some provision should be secured to his family.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that there was not a person
in the house more ready than he to grant public money for
eminent services done to the country, and no services
conld have been greater than those performed by the late
Gen. Havelock. He rose, not to oppose the motion, for he
thought that Lady Ilevelosk was eminently entitled to a
pension, but to call attention to the greatly increased re-
ward as compared with that of last year. Then it was pro-
posed to give an annuity to Gen. Havelock for his life;
and it was the wish of the house that it should be extended
to his son for life ; and there was no opposition to that. If
the proposition had been to grant Gen. Havelock 2,000/. a
year, he (Hr. Williams) would have made no objection, for
he thought it was the highest policy to reward eminent
public services such as those of Gen. Havelock. . But the
ground laid by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for °Tent-
ing 1,0001. a year to Major Havelock wholly failed. The
right honourable gentleman might have pointed out a
thousand officers as much entitled to a similar reward on
personal grounds as Major Havelock. What must be
the feelings of distinguished officers of higher rank than
Major Havelock who had received no pecuniary reward,
and one or two of whom had received lent a slender ac-
knowledgment of their services from her Majesty? In
particular he thought that Col. Greathed was entitled to a
higher re ward than he had received. The right hon. gen-
tleman had spoken of the ceurags of Major Havelock.
Why, there was not a -man in that arrey,ofticer or soldier,
who had not displayed as much courage as he. This was a
motion for an additional 1,000/, a.y
originally propoin (Divide ) ear beyond what was
Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to enter his strong protest,
against the doctrine of the hon, member for Lambeth, and
on the part of-his constituents he felt deeply grateful to
the Government for having made this provision for Major
Havelock. The statement of the hon. member for Perth
that the provision Gen. Havelock had been able to make
fur his family was so inadequate, was sufficient to justify
this vote to the mind and feelingsP of every member of this
house. But he hold that it was the greatest wisdom in
cases of the devotion of
men's live; to the service of their
country like that of Gen Havelock, H
that their families
should be provided for after their deathe e did not think
it desirable that our officers should be encumbered with
wealth, but it had been len; felt that it was a wise princi-
ple that the country should provide for the families of those
who had done great services and risked their lives for
their country, and so relieve the minds of such men fr
nn
their chief anxiety. If Gen. Havelock had been f reeel voLl,
or could have known what his country
was doing for his
family, such a course would have Loon more congenial to
his feelings than any personal reward.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Paid he
thought it right to remove a misappieheusion under which
the noble inernbz fur Devizes laboured, when he thought
that the Government had acted procii itat. ly, and that tho
house was now in committee on a bill for granting an au-
nuity to Lady Havelock and Major Havelue,k. The truth
Was th it the house was in the first staeo of such a bill, viz.,
a resolution on which a hill was to be founded. Therefore
if the hon. member wished to make any remake on this
subject Ito would have ample opportunity in the future
stag .3 of the bill. lie wished also to remot:ea strange mis-
undmetanding, by the hon. member for Lambeth, of the
remarks ho had wade. The hon. member understood that
he laid the groin,' of the resolution solely on the personal
merits of Major Havelock, and irrespective of the services
of his lamented father, whereas ho thought that he had
di,tiuctly stated that he believed that the house would
have grant e I th's annuity to the son of General Havelock,
wholly irrespective of his nersonel merits. The original
proposition was for an annuity to General Ife.veleck only ;
and it was the expressed wish of the house that it should
be continued to his son; that is, that it should bo granted
for two lives. The Government acceded to the wish of the
house, but that was not the original
proposition. Since
that understanding had been come to, the lamented death
of General Havelock had become known, en 1 the position
of things had changed, and it was thought that the origi-
nal intention should not be carried into effect ; and it be-
came his (Chancellor of the Exchequer's) duty to submit to
the wishes of the house; and he had said that iirespective
the house a different resolution, carrying out the spirit of

facilities which had been afforded to Turkey ? Again, had
not money been given to Sardinia for the payment of troops
to aid in the war against Russia? Would it bo more ob-
jectionable to lend money to India for an English object ?
When the English Three per Cents. were at 95 and the
East India Company were borrowing money at l; per cent.,
would it not confer a great advantage on India and give
a favourable introduction to the abolition of the double
government to allow India to enjoy fully her union with
this country ? But this was refused. It was said " You
shall be under the crown for the purposes of power and
honour, bnt as to the question of credit, you shall have
none of our credit." When the right hon. gentleman
proposed to give to the East India Company the power of
borrowing for two years, an I the probability was that
that company would not live for many weeks, the ab-
surdity of such a plan must P tri ko every member of
the house. It seemed to him to be contrary to every prin-
ciple of constitutional Image to grant a minister, who
was not known, tho power of borrowing 10,000,0001. to dis-
pose of existing obligations and debts, leaving the re-
mainder to be managed no one knew how. lie was not
aware whether any opposition would be given to the
measure at its present stage, but trusted some hon. mem-
ber of greater iniluence would express his opinion on the
subject. (Near, hoar.)
_ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
notwithstanding the high financial authority of the hon.
gentleman, he did not think the house would, upon a ma-
ture consideration of the question, come to the conclusion
that the bill proposed by his sight hon. friend was not
founded on principles of correct legislation en the two
points on which the hon. gentleman had impugned it.
The hon. gentleman's first objection was that the
Government sought to obtain for the East India Company
the power of borrowing money, which in consequence
of expected legislation they might not be able
hereafter to exercise; and he then argued that the
exigencies of the Indian treasury ought to be satis-
fied not by loans borrowed on Indian credit, but by loans
granted on imperial credit. Now he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) ventured to, maintain, with great confidence,
after a fall consideration of the matter, that she bill was
founded on correct policy in both respects, although that
policy was directly contrary to that recommended by the
hon. gueelernan. It was not disputed that a necessity existed
for the Government of India in this country to raise money
by loan for the payment of the expenses of their home
treasury. If that point should be conceded, considerable
progress would be made in the solution of the question.
Now, what was the position of the East India Company
with respect to their borrowing powers. In India their
power of borrowing was unlimited, and it was not suggested
that the authority of parliament was-necessary to enable the
Governor-General in council to borrow. There was always
a loan open in the three presidencies of India, and the bor-
rowing power had never been disputed, and was constantly
kept in a state of activity. With regard to this country,
the borrowing powers of the East India Company were
peculiar, owing to the manner in which their auomalous
authority had been created. Having been originally a
trading company, which accidentally acquired sovereignty
and governing power, their power to borrow was limited
by Parliament, as Parliament limited the borrowing
powers of any ordinary joint stock company. Owing to
these circumstances, it was necessary for Parliament to
give to the Government of India iu this country specific
authority to borrow money in this country. But in con-
sequence of their having become a political body after they
had originally exercised merely mercantile functions,
they had not the same advantage in the money mar-
ket in this country which was possessed by the
local Government of any of our other depend-
encies or colonies. If, for example, the Government
of Canada, or the Government of Demerara wished
to effect a loan in this country--if their credit enabled
them to borrow—there was nothing in the statute law to
prevent their exercising that power to any extent to which
they might bo able to induce landowners to come forward.
But the East India Company was peculiarly situated, and it
was necessary for them to apply to Parliament to remove
that restriction which the accident of being a trading com-
pany had embarrassed it with. What was now required was
thatthe government of India in this country —the Board of
Directors subj ect to the control of theßoard of Commissioners
for Ind:a—should have the power to a ce:tain extent to
borrow money in this country, iu order to defray the ex-
penses of their home treasury for a limited time. If they
exercised that powerthey would exercise it subject to all the
laws now in existence. If the power was clear, the responsi-
bility would continue so long as the existing state of things
remained unaltered. If it should please Parliament on the
proposition of the Government to make any alteration in the
constitution of the home government of India, undoubtedly
'it would take care to yrovido for the transfer of those
powers—to see that the borrowing powers created by the
bill should be exercised under proper responsibility—and
that the money obtained by the exercise of such borrowing
powers should be used, subject to the laws which regulate
the expenditure of the government of India. No dangerous
intervvd would occur, and there would be a clear power
and complete responsibility, both during the currency of
this act, and under any amended statute which parliament
might think fit to pass. Therefore there was not the
smallest weight in the objections to the principle on which
the bill was founded. Tee necessity existed for authorising
the existing home government of India to raise money for
the wants of the home treasury. The necessity existing,
the constitution of the home government continued, the
present bill was adapted to that constitution. The power
of raising and using the money would be exercised under
the existing law. If parliament should think fit to alter the
present constitution, then the power of borrowing must be
dealt with in the same manner as other powers inherent in
the East India Company, and no peculiar difficulty would
arise with respect to the present bill which would not arise
with respect to their other powers. They now possessed a
small nnexhausted power of borrowing on India Bonds, to
which the objections of the hon. gentleman would apply as
much as to the present bill The hon. gentleman proposed.
that loans for the service of India should not be raised on
the credit of the revenue of India, but by the Imperial Ex-
chequer; and argued that the government were bound to
accede to his principle, because they were about to propose
the abolition of the political powers of the company in this
country. But he could not see the smallest connexion be-
tween the pa mises and the conclusion of the hon. gentleman.
It was only necessary to 'look to other dependencies and
colonies of the kingdom to see manifold examples of govern-
ments, in which there was a direct relation between the
Crown and the dependency, and in which, nevertheless,
the exchquers were just as distinct as the imperial exche-
quer and the Indian exchequer, and whore the loan was
effected by the colonial credit, unless the imperial credit
was giver( by the specific legislation of Parliament. The
hon, gentleman bad referred to the case of the Canadian
loan, and that of the Demerara loan, as examples which
ought to be followed with regard to India. Now, the
Canadian loan was effected under peculiar circumstances,
with a view to the settlement of differences pending with
the colony, and rested simply on the policy of an impe-
rial guarantee for a colonial loan. In the case of Dome-
rers, and other loans effected by the West India islands,
they were in some degree connected with the emancipa-
tion of the slaves, rend the distressed financial condition of
those colonies, and surely they afforded no example for the
extension of an imperial guarantee to an exchequer so
generally wealthy as that of India. During the last session
an imperial guarantee was 'given to New Zealand, but the
reason was, that it was a young and struggling community
—and there were peculiar relations with the Now Zealand
Company which rendered it expedient that the assistance
of the British treasury should be given to that community.
Those reasons, however, did not apply to our East India
dominions, which had never-yet been a burden upon the
British exchequer. On the contrary, in the early history
of our relations with India; an attempt was made to ex-
tract from India a contribution to the English exchequer.
That tribute, as it was called, was paid for a series of years
and t a great extent a delusion prevailed that England
had, to no inconsiderable degree, been enriched by the con-
tributions of India, and that so far from the imperial ex-
chequer being called upon to guarantee Indian loans and
-becoming itself tributory, the common belief of foreigners
and of many persons in this country teas, that Englan I had
derived from India some assistance to its exchequer.
Without wishing to revive long settled disputes as to the
tribute of India in aid of the expenses of this country—
without thinking that it would ever be possible, or if pm=
Bible that it would bojust or expedient, to call upon the
finances of India to do more than discharge the wants of
the Indian Government. He could not for a moment ad-
mit the principle that except for some extraordinary pur-
pose—except on account of the failure both of Indian re-
venue and Indian credit—it would be expedient or just to
eall in aid of the finances of India the credit of the Lnpa-
rial Legislature. Differing entirely with the hon. gentle-
man on the two important points which ho had raised, he
justified the bill on principles of sound policy, and as de-
servire of the support of the house. (Hear.)
Mr.
Mr.'DISRAELI did not think his hon. friend the mem-
ber for Huntingdon (Mr. Baring) ought to flatter himself
with the notion that her Majesty's Ministers would with-
draw their intended measure to change the govern-
ment of India on account of the existence of a great
emergency, because it was in the midst of a great
emergency, after due and deep consideration, that hop
Majesty's Ministers snivel at the conclusion that
such a potty ought to be recommended to Parliament;
and, considering the intitnatioa contained in the speech
from the throne--considering the correspondence which
had taken place between the highest authorities connected
with the Government of India and the First Minister of
the Crown--considering that a member in another place
had last night signified the intention of the Government to
bring forward a measure to change the powers of the East
India Government in this country, he thought his hon.
friend would, upon reflection, not flatter himself that his
appeal would b 3 successt ul. (Hear) It appeared to him
that- her Maj else's Ministers were not acting with that
ingenuousness and candour which the house had a right
to expect. After the notification from the Crown and the
correspondence which had passed between the First Minis-
ter and the directors, it was rather extraordinary that the
}louse of Commons had received no official intim stion on
the subject, when the interposition of that house was ne-
cess try to enable the East ludia Company to carry on the
government of that vast country. lie did not think the
right hon. gentleman had mot, the practical difficulty in
the case. The question really was, what were the most
advantageous terms on which the Home Government of
India could raise the money ? The house had been told
that, whatever changes might take place, it was the deter
ruination of the Government th at any loan raised iu this
country by the Home Government of India should be a
charge upon the revenue of India only. He would not at
present enter into the policy and propriety of that de.'ser-
ruination ; but if the loan was to be chargeable only on the
revenue of India, it became a question of calculation with
those who hal the money to lend whether the security
would be best under the Government now in existence in
India, and which administered India, or under the Govern-
ment projected by her Majesty's Ministers, That appeared
to be a distinction of the utmost importance, which the
house was bound *to 'consider, and which involved the
whole question of the policy or propriety of the change of
g
Government. (Hear, hoar.) It was a question of
consideration whether the house should or could entertainraye
a measera of this kind--a measure which empowered
th
Home Government of India to raise, not for immediate
or pressing purposes, but for future purposes,a le
of such a large amount. The first consideration
of those
who had money to lend must be the security on which the
money was to be lent. If the security was only to be the
revenue of India, the question would be the parties by
whom the government was to be administered alma the
means by which the revenue was to be raised, because that
might make a difference between 3 and 6 per cent,, b
or e.
tween 6 and 9 per cent. Seine persons might coed ler that
if the administration of India was placed un !er the crown,
the sosurity offered by the Indian revenue would bo in-
finitelyimproved. But there might he an influential body,
alai amongst them probably malty who wou'd be willing to
advance the money, who would look with the greatest ! alarm and distrust on the projected-alteration, as likely to
shako the foundations of the Indian teV011:10, and affect t ha
resources and prosperity of the country. Under these sir
cum lances, although be could not go so far as to say the
house ought to refuse to sanction the introduction of the
bill, beta tee that would bo an act of discourtesy tower ,1
the government to which he did not wish to ha eSpartvle
s
thought the house ought to say, in permitting its introduce ,
time, wo are not pledged tqaupport it in its future stages,

His impression was that when the bill was well weighed
by the house and the country, it would be found replete
with grave objections and deserving of the most serious
a'ad earnest consideration. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CARDWELL thought the demand that the East
India Company should borrow money was a reasonable one
--(hear, hear) but it became an early question what was
to be the future position of the CoLsolidatel Fund in con-
nection with this loan. Money borrowed by the East In-
dia Company would be twice the charge of money borrowed
by the Crown. Ile had no desire to precipitate the dis-
cussion on the forthcoming measure with regard to India,
but it was of fist moment to consider on what basis the
future revenue of India was to rest. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said there could be no ouht that the
East India Company required money at this moment, but
the question remained, whether the means of borrowing
proposed was the best that could be devised. (Hear, hear.)
Ile thought the house had been left somewhat in the dark
on the subject of the revenues of India. In all former
cases, where so large a loan as ten millions had been bor-
rowed, Parliament had been informed as to the means of
repayment, and the particular security to be forthcoming.
The Government had omitted all information in this re-
spect. If the money was to be raised entirely on the
security of the Indian revenue, the power of lending money
in India at 6 per cent, would to some extent influence the
advance of money at lower rates in this country. (Hear.)
Mr. MANGLES said that although the East India Com-
pany had not, asked the Government to bring in a bill for
the aboliticn of the company's power—(a laugh)—they cer-
tainly had requested the introduction of the present mea-
sure. Money was required by the company in consequence
of the enormous outgoings in connection with the recent
mutiny, both with regard to the supply of money for
troops and the transport of stores. The Home Government
of India required assistance, and it was asked in order that
the machine should not come to a stop. The right hon.
member for Buckinghamshire said that tho money was not
inimediately required ; but the fact was that, at this mo-
ment, the company owed the Government for the payment
of troops and for stores not less than 3,000,0001. • and at
the end of 1858-9 that sum would amount to 7,000,0001.
With regard to the terms of borrowing, he believed that
6 per cent. in Calcutta was equivalent to 3 per cent. in
this country. The company's Four per Cent. Bonds were
at present at a premium of 28s. per cent., and this showed
that the company was not at so low an ebb as some sup-
posed. (Hear.) It had been said that the East India
Company, like certain colonies in former times, could bor-
row in the market, and lawyers were of opinion that an
extension of the company's powers could he effected for
that purpose; but whatever might be the opinion on that
head, he hoped that in the meantime the machinery of the
Home Government of India might not be allowed to stand
still for the want of funds for carrying on the war. (Hear.)
Sir F. BARING had no wish to impede the East Indira.
Company in procuring money (hear, hear) ;—but thought
the loan should be confined to the year. (Hear, hear.)
Why should the company now have advanced to it three
millions more than it wanted, when it was well known that
before the expiration of six months that company itself
would have uecome a matter of history. (A. laugh.) He
should also have liked to have had a little information as
to the diepos il of the money. The only fact known was,
that as far as finance was concerned, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would not bo responsible. It was all very well
for the right hon. gentleman to say this, but the English
public, in the contingency of failure on the part of the
Indian finances to repay the loan, would feel bound in
honour to repay it. (Hear, hear.) It, therefore, became
the duty and the interest of the Government to borrow
money on the most eligible terms. (Hear, hear.) A.
necessary preliminary to the loan was explanation as to the
actual sum required. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel SYKES did not mean to anticipate discussion
cn the forthcoming bill for setting aside the company, but
desired to express his entire concurrence in the measures
adopted to preserve its powers. Pending legislation, money
was urgently required. But this was his firm conviction,
that if tho bill for abolishing the company were carried
into effect, the securities on which the money was advanced
would not be worth a rush. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY considered the moment chosen
by the Government for destroying the powers of the East
India Company most inopportune. It was most important,
also, that before granting the proposed loan the financial
situation of India should be clearly laid before Parliament.
Ile very much doubted whether the holders of East India
Stock ware not prejudiced by the present measure.
Mr. DANBY SEYIvIOUR said that a disposition had
been shown to limit the amount of this lean. Such also
was the desire of the Government, and the sum named by
them—namely, 10,000,0001.—was the limit assigned. The
loan, he con& n led, had been advantageously put out.
Mr. V. SMITH, in reply, thanked the house for the
tone and temper in which they had received the measure.
There was no intention to charge tho revenues of this
country with liability for any portion of the loan. He
hoped that, considering the position of the East India
Com] y, no unr.ecassary delay would take place before
the second reading of the bill. Since the last Indian bud-
get, the Indian renues had certainly not imprv, from
causes well knownev to the house. The money too la Araised
virgule' be confined exclusively to home expenditure.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
EAST INDIA. CADETSHIPS.
Colonel SYKE3 moved for a return of the number of
cadetships and different classes of individuals upon whose
sons all cadetships for India have been conferred by the
directors of the East India Company and President of the
Board of Control, in the several years from 1840 to 1857,
both inclusive, lie believed there would be no objection
to the return, similar ones having been furnisned. When
produced Le felt satisfied it would be seen that in not a sing's case had promotion been the result of patronage.
Mr. V. SMITH said that it would be difficult to make
his return, which, in fact, wag hardly intelligible. He
could not conceive the reason why the return was to be
limited to the period between 1840 and 1817. except that
in the former year the hon. and gallant colonel became a
director of the company.
Colonel SYKES said he could not consent to the alte-
rations proposed in the form of the return by the right
hon. the President of the Board of Control.
The motion, as originally proposed, was then agreed to
without a division.

INDIAN PETITIONS,
Sir H. VERNEY moved for copies of all papers not
already presented to the house, connected with the various
annexations of territory in India, including minutes by in-
dividual directors, since the annexation of Sattarah ; ac-
counts of all sums pal 1 to Hindoo or Mahometan shrines,
or in any way in honour or support of the religion or of
religious institutions of the native inhabitants of India,
which wore collected or disbursed by the agency of the
East India Company's servants during the year 1857;
copies of the petition of the inhabitants of Calcutta for the rs-
cal of the Governor-General, together with any observations
which he may have male thereon ; and, if any despatches
from the Court of Directors of the East India Company to
the Government of India, respecting the appointment of
commissioners to inquire into the cause of the military
mutiny in that country, and the best means of re-organise
ing the Bengal army.
Mr. V. SMITH explained that the petition from Cal-
cu, to referred to in the motion, was not accompanied by
so full an explanation by the Governor-General as was
usually the case in despatches transmitted from India to
the Government at home.
With this explanation the motion Was agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. HATTER, a new writ was or-
deredlor the southern division of the conuty of Northamp-
ton, for the election of a member in the room of Lord
Althorpo, who since his election had been called to the
House of Peers.
THE NEW INDIA BILL.
Lord PALMERSTON gave notice that on Friday next
he would move for leave to bring in a bill for the better
regulation of the Government of India.
Tho house then adjourned, at a few minutes after eight
o'clock. •