The Sun.
London, England, 1804-06-19 00:00:00

Mr. GREY wished to know whether the Officers
to be raised under this Force were to he appointed
by the Crown, like all other Military Officers, and
whether they were to be paid while the Force wos
disembodied ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he thought this matter had been explained already,
as to the appointment of Officers ; for they were to
be appointed like other Officers under the Crown.—
His idea always had been as at present. This Force
was kept only as an additional Force, liable to be
called out in time of Peace, when any alarm should
render it necessary, in the same manner as the Mi-
litia. Officers were to be entitled to their half-pay
only when disembodied ; but they would, neverthe.
less, be in the way of promotion, as if belonging
to the bat talion,of service. During the last month
or five weeks they were embodied, they would be
on full pay. Mr. PITT then moved, That this Bill,
with the Amendments, be ingrossed.
Mr. HARRISON said, he was ready to confess
that the Bill was now less exceptionable than before;
but it still retained so much of its native dafeds
that he could nut agree to it. The leading feature
of this Bill was to raise money, and that in a vex-
atinui manner, by fines and penalties on parishes and
local districts, instead of the fair way of general
taxation. He did not want to see this great in-
crease of the established Force of the Country in
time of Peace, and it struck him that this was to
create a sort of standing Army. There were many
points of objeCtion which he should not enumerate,
as they had been touched upon already, and others
which would occur to the House in the course of
discussion. He was clearly against the Bill. He
was about to propose an Amendment, when
The SPEAKER observed, that this was a ques.
tion which did not admit of an Amendment.
Mr. W. ELLIOT observed, that the Bill now
before them had been so amply discussed, that he
need not detain the House long in delivering hia
sentiments upon it; he could not, however, forbear
making a few- observations by way of explanation
of the motives by which he had been, and would be
guided in the discussion of this subjed. This Bill
was not introduced as a temporary expedient, but it
was to lay the foundation of a permanent system.
The object, if he understood it, was this, to supply
the present deficiency of our existing Military Force,
and to render it a future source of Recruiting the Re.
gular Army, so as to enable us to employ a greater
proportion of disposable Force for offensive opera.
tions ; also to extinguish the pernicious system of
large bounties. Much had been said on the effed of
local Recruiting, and the advantages of the exertions
of Gentlemen in the Dis:tiCts in which they lived.
He admitted there was a good deal of force in those
observations, as they applied to parts of Scotland or
Ireland, but they did not come under this Bill, for
it was confined to England. It had been said,
that Parish Officers would exert themselves, as well
as Military Gentlemen, in raising men ; but there
was a marked distindion between the situations
of these two classes : the one had rank and emo.
lument for raising men. Here was nothing to be
obtained, at the best, but e.aemption from the pay-
ment of a fine. There should be better stimulus,
or this would sink into a mere Tax. These men,
who were to Recruit for the Parishes, had not the
requisites for -that business, for Recruiting was a
science. The operation of this measure would be
greatly to defeat the end of general Recruiting for
the Regular Service; for the moment a Recruiting
Officer shall come into a Parish, the whole of it
will be in arms against him, because they will re.
gard him as a person come to take away the men
they want : this was not all ; the bounty for the
Line was now to be sixteen guineas for general ser-
vice: the bounty under this Bill was to be twelve
guineas, and from thence into the Line ten guineas;
that made twenty-two guineas, six guineas above
the bounty for the Line, which was a competition
extremely injurious to the Recruiting for that service.
"The power which the Parish Officers would have
under this Bill, might operate most oppressively on
those who are perhaps, in many instances, too much
under their gripe already. There were many Laws
that had lain dormant, which this Bill would tend to
revive, and which humanity toad long since induced
us to relax. A man, for vagrancy, or other cause,
might be sent to Bridewell for two months, and
discharged at the end of one, on condition of en-
listing, at the instance of the Parish Officers. Many
of the penalties of the Game Laws might be re-
' vived by this Bill. An unqualified man forfeited 51.
for killing a hare ; if he cannot pay the fine, which
was the case of the multitude, his goods may be dis.
trained, but the fine might be remitted, provided the
delinquent would enlist. The same might be said
when a distress took place for taxes ; by these means
men might be forced into the Service, which was
oppression.—It was incumbent on the Legislature to
take care that the Laws they cnaded might nut sti-
tnulate abuse in their execution. This Bill would
produce a mischievous adivity in Parish Officers to
interfere with the comforts of almost all the lower
orders of Society. And although his Right I-10-
nourable Friend had considerably altered his tone
in this Bill, and had endeavoured to obviate objec-
tions to it—still it was inefficient for its purpose,
and would be vexatious in its effete—it would he
vexatious in its effea, because of its inefficiency for
its purpose : it was a measure that would diminish
and depress, when we should increase and enliven
the vigour of the Country. He thought also that
the memory of large bounties would not die away
for a considerable time ; that men would not enlist
for such Bounty as was here allowed unt'er such
regulation. He observed that some Members of the
House expeeted much advantage to the Country, if
the plans of the late Administration should have
the vigour of the present to Wry them into efiett ;

and this was partly of that nature, For his own part
he had no such hope ; and indeed it was a little
whimsical, that a majority of the present Cabinet
had sant-Honed both this plan, and that for which
it was intended as a substitute. Having urged those
and other objections to the Bill, and a,pproved of
the sentiments expressed on former occasions on
this subject by Mr. WitaDat.aat, be concluded by
giving his negative to the Motion.
General MAITLAND felt it a duty he owed to
himself as a Member of Parliament, and also as 'a
Member of a Profession to which the Bill applied,
to make a few observations. He confessed he
agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last, in thinking that this Bill would be ineffedual
for the purpose it was intended for, and.oppreSsive
and vexatious in the attempt to carry it into execu-
tion. As a means of gaining men for the Service, he
was sure it would be inefficacious, and he was sure
it would not produce any thing like the number of
men eipeaed to be raised by it, . without being
extremely oppressive and burthensome. Govern„
ment would earn - no men, but they might take
money under this Bill. In looking at this Bill,
m
considering its merits and its deerits,and comparing
it with the measure of a Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. ADDINGTON), he considered it in a still more
unfavourable point of view. The Administration of
that Right Hon. Gentleman, and others who hid re.
tired with him, had been charged with want of ca.
pacitj,, of vigour, and of energy ; but he would ask,
whet her any man would get up in that House, and
state that this Bill had any quality of vigour or
energy ? In one word, he had no hesitation in de-
claring it as his opinion, that the measure of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. AtiorNoroN), for
which this Bill was the substitute, in comparison
with it, was the very essence of energy and vigour.
This was a measure (to adopt a phrase ia!rady used)
of milk and water, as far as its provision went to
serve the State. It had indeed energy and vigour,
but they were of a very different kind from that
which its advocates imputed to it—it was a mea.
sure of vigour to oppress the People, and of energy
ro unite them to dislike it. The measure of the
Right Honourable- Gentleman who had lately ben
Minister, had been greatly opposed, on account of
its allowing Gentlethen to recruit for rank : when
he proposed 25,000 men to the Regular Force, it
was objefied to the measure, that raising any then
for rank was vicious, and instances of that were
given, as operating on the Service of last War.—
He owned he did not see the force of the objt.c-
tions, although he admitted that raising men for
rank, like every other measure, however good, was
liable to objection, on account of abuse, hut the
system he thought beneficial to the Puha Ser.
vice, generally speaking. The present Bill con_
rained innumerable defeds, arid among them, the
very eisq of which the Right Hon. Gentkanan
(Mr. PITT) had complained so much, that of high
bounty, in competition against the Regular Service,
being, in reality, six guineas above the bounty for
the Line, as had been already stated by the Right
Holt. Oentlern an who had just spoken. But a point
of much more importance than any thing he had hi.'
therto stated, was the awful situation in which this
Country stands. The charader of our Enemy was
not changed, though his title was ; and although,
from various circumstances, some time may elape
before his project against this Country shall be at.
tempted, he saw no symptom whatevei of his hav-
ing abandoned it. The late Minister was charged
with delay in the measures he brought forward for
the Defence of the Country; but this measure must
necessarily cause a great deal More delay than any
measure proposed by that Right Hon. Gentleman.
It would be unavoidably attended with such delay,
that 'he very much believed the project of the Ene-
my Might be tried before we shall have raised ten
thousand men under this Bill for the general service.
The great objection he had to this Bill was, that of
its being a 'permanent measure, and that it was an
attempt Id raise a superstrutture without any solid
foundation ; so far from a solid foundation, the foun-
dation was entirely rotten. lie took occasion to
applaud the Army of Reserve Bill, as the best mea.
sure that could have been adopted under the circum.
stances that called for it; but this, although pre.
tended to be built on that measure, had none of its
merit. It made no provision for various situations
in which men might be placed—indeed there was
one general defect in raising the Army, and in
making a distinction in the sort of service they were
to be employed, and the bounty they were to re-
ceive. Men in the affairs of common life, would
not embark in business or labour of an unhealthy
kind unless the reward was proportionable ; thus,
for instance, men would not work upon white lead
at the price of common labour. Why ? Because it
was understood that human life could not endure it
above six years. So in the services of our Army, a
distinetion ought to be made in the Bounty, if not
in the pay of men, according to the service they
may be called upon to perform ; not that he meant
to say, upon the whole of our military, service, sol-
diers were scantily paid ; on the contrary, the pay-
ment was liberal ; he only mentioned this as an idea
fit to be entertained in the discussion of a permanent
measure. He thought also that this was not a time
favourable for the adoption of a permanent Military
System, but that we should wait for a time of peace,
when the Militia shall be disembodied, and when
the System of the Supplementary Militia inight be
supplied by some other measure. Taking the best
view he was able of the whole of this Bill, he saw
in it irefficacy on the one hand, and oppression on
the other, and therefore it met his decided negative.
Mr. OSBORNE observed, it had been said
this measure would be inefficacious on the one
hand, and oppressive on the other, and pro.
money but not men--he confessed this last

allegation appeared to him extraordinary. The hill
did not.-call for one shilling but in the' event of not
raising the men. As to the oppression and hardships
which the Bill would produce, they existed only in
-the imaginations of Gentlemen on the nrher I,lde of
the House. BUt what measure of extensive (Teta,
tiorowas there, which nvould not produce some i neon.
venience ? And who was there who wOuld not saeri-
fiee some of his' personal. comforts, at this time, Cr.
the service of his Country ? For his pattl he believed
tfie.People of this Country were all ready to make
that sacrifice, and they never were more th.,n at the
present moment, sanguine in their expectations of
advaetage from the talents of the Right Hen. Gene
tleMan now .at-the head of His Majesty's Govern..
meet ; he believed the Peopk pettedly confided in
him.; and that this Bill .wotild be efficacious as re,
the objeft for which it was intended. For these
reasons he gave it his support.
Geheral GASCOYNE said, that as a miiirari
man he vier `desirous of delivering his sentiments on
this 4oeftrjvhich were directly opposite to those
'of the Right Hon. Colenel .'ho had epe'<er• last hue
one : on the .subject of raising men by Officers foe
rank, he differed entirely from the Right flon,
Colonel. The-Right Hon. Colonel had defended
that pra6lice.—The Right H Coloriel
General ill A ItaL AA' D spoke to order.--He ob-
served, that he did not trouble the House with arm
thing that related to himsclf; " but," said he, ''
leave to the House to consider of the eery fair and
handsome manner in which the H Gentleman has
attetnpted to attack Me, when I spoke nothing
was not within order; and when the Honoarable
Gentleman, instead of an argument, enter.; into a
doubt whether an Officer had the rank °fa Brigadier
General or not."
General GASCOYNE Whatever rank the
Ho". Colonel or 'General may have, I do not
know---I thought I spoke cot-redly—l did too knoss
that there was such a thing in England as a Briga-
dier.General.—lt is new to Me."
General MAITL:4AD I submit to the House
the regularity of entering now into a discinsion
the question, whether there be a rank of Brigadier
General or not ?"
General GASCOYNE then proceeded to observe
on the evils which he maintained to be inseparable
from the system of allowing Officers rank ter raising
Men. It had been complained of in the service un.ler.
General CONWAY, General Lord A MHERSI', and his
Royal Pighness the present Commander in Chief,
and they had done every thing that talents and exec-
tion could accomplish, hut the evils were fnterseoveri
with the system of raising men fir rank. It wa's lice
btibery at der-lions, it signified not what- heat was
made against it ; the thing would somehow or other
take placc.. How Could a ca-Milelaheproee t (fietid of
'his giving a voter fire guineas'? Jeat so' it was
white rattle was allowed for mcn—higli Bnuniies
would be given in order to raise thon. He then
proceeded to observe, that although he was itvoUr...
able to the Bill now beihre the House, great (lift_
collies would be thrown in the way of it, for. the
Memory of large Bounties would not coon be lest.
He observed, that as to the Army of Reserve, the
House would be astonished to see the list of deser-
tions, when fifty guineas Bounty were given. The
tr'ekure would have this good effect, that if meta
raised under it should desert, having been raised
froM the Parishes, it will be more easy to fi :d them
out, than if they had been oaken prorniscutinsly
from all parts of the Country. As far n 6 lie .13111.
went, he cordially approved of it ; blur lie wished it
had gone farther. Another good thing that wonlel
attend it was, that it would increase the old Regi.e
merits, and it was perfealy clear that the Army of
Reserve scarcely added one to them, but lessened
their recruiting. He observed, that he had known
Lieutenants of the age of 60, who, if length cf'ser.
vices were considered, were more fir for promotion'
than either the Right Hon. General or hirnself.—
He was not surprized at the opposition set up
against this measure : if it had been a measure more
deserving Of support (although this did deserve suo_
port), it would not have failed, under the present
circumstance,, to have met opposition ; but hi the
course of the next Session of Parliament; he had no
doubt there would be Arriendments suggesfed by
experience, which would rnoke it Meet the cordial
approbation of the Country at large.
Mr. ELLISON thought, that when it was stated
that the Country was in a Most perilous situation,
and when so many fairlts were toOnd - with those
who preceded the Gentlemen now in 'office,- for want •
of plans sufficient for the exigencies of
.the present
times, something much better than the present Bill
might have been expeded from the Right Hon.
Gentleman. The present Bill seemed more intended
for a foundation of a permanent -system winch Was
to operate in (dune, than for a measure likely to
meet the perils of the present times. The ball 6
being taken away, the particular exemptions are
taken away also, and it might happen that those
Volunteers to whom the exemptions had lately .been,
given, would find themselves the persons who, were
to be called upon to pay the fines which were td be
levied on the Parish, in default of raising the Taxa
appointed. The tax would operate as a dtouble
tax on most of the estates in the Country, and that
machinery of Deputy Lieutenants and Parish Oiliers ,
by no means reconciled him to the Measure•—he
could riot receive this measure as a palladium for the,
Country ; he considered it merely as a mode of
keeping up a large standing Army at all times, and
of getting the money necessary' for the purpose., not
in the regular way, but by the indired way of levy.
ing fines for nonperformance of that which it would,
perhaps, be found impossible to periorm.
Coloi;e1 MITFO RD felt very numer 'us and
weighty objettions to the measure proposed, which,
as bring a measure falling within the line of his pro.