The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-17 00:00:00

S"ATURDAY EVENING, JULY 171 1858.

altogether share in the panegyrics which had been b- between absolute adaaisaion and absolute exclusion, he
pel,hereEdartlheollacttetti%
RENDON wished to know whether
stowed upon the Board of Directors ; but, at all events,
they had not selected old Indians for their servants.
sl de e
rbee.
Many years ago Lord Buckinghamehire found the direc•
aednktoinugndweorn-
mmeim.obtebr who at the time of his appointment or elec-
tors
could not write their despatchea, and it was at his tainoyn e
it engagednp, as ipnetrreaodnisnagppoori
appointed
suggestion that the " examiners" had been appointed, by obligedgto give
whom the government of India had ever since been vir- taryelf Tarolr similar effigies were now compelled to do ?
tuelly carried on. (Hear, hear.) What was an old Indian ? Tee of Derby replied they could not continue
It was a person who had a great knowledge of a very any bu • sionelsds requiring a degree of personal attention
small locality, who knew very little about the rest of whichinterfere with the duties of their office, but
India, and was altogether ignorant of European politics, he couldw
notu
It was the very want of the Europern element in the because he was ant ermii t merchant, or a great banker,
government of India which bad led to our recent disas- or a sleepingofiecartinAß n a great brewery.
tern, The old Indians by whom affairs were conducted The Earl ENDON said the same rule ought
had never been 50 miles oat of Calcutta in their lives, then to be applied to the offices be had mentioned.
and they thought the rest of the Indian people were like The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought that if they
those docite creatures by whom they were surrounded, were to have Council entirely
devoted to their duties,
They had, therefore, madly attempted to strip the pro- they ought to retain no interest which could possibly be
prietors of the north-western provinces of their lands, affected by their official acts. (Hear, hear.)
and the country had had to deplore the result. For this The Marquis.)
of CL NE Ai. ICA.RDE believed it was a
reason alone he (the noble earl) felt that he was fully fact that four • ' •
million of supplies were now annually con.
entitled to vote for the amendment. (Cheer?,) tracted for in London which could be more advant
Lerd ONTE AGLE exclusion objected greatly to the
M ously obtained in Calcutta, but the object was age"
keep
of members of the council from Parliament. As-uming, up the City influence. to
- ,
what eertainly a great deal to allow, that the coun- The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH
was .-- said the Council
. - hest men that could be selected, would have constantly to decide questions affecting the
cell: re would all be ono ..,
the very success which attended the efforts to create a interest of every man engaged in trade, and they ought
good
oug t
good council would deprive Parliament of the 15 men to he above all suspicion.
who vrould best be able to guide its deliberations on In- Earl GRANVILLE considered that when the salary
dian affairs. (Hear.) Noble lords near hire seemed to was so much increased, the members might fairly be
be so overcome by the difficulties they had to encounter, called on to devote themselves exclusively to their office.
that they had actually been driven to recommend a eye. If the objection of his noble friend was valid, what be-
tem of despotism for the government of our Eastern em. came of that portion of his noble friend's own plan which
pire. The house must not suppose that the use of a proposed to have representatives of five great oommer-
board was merely to sit as a body. The business might cis' cities iki the oeuncili
be distributed amongst its members, and in that manner The Duke of NEWCASTLE thought it would be best
lit might be admirably performed. (Hear.) Besides, to have the members free from even the suspicion of
they must remember that they were not dealing with a pecuniary advantage.
department, but with a great empire ..and the compare. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the go-
sons which had been made had, therefore, no foundation vernment of India was essentially a government of re-
at all. What was now proposed by the noble duke was, cords, as had been remarked by a noble lord opposite,
that one official should unite in his own person the func- who had been himself President of the Board of Control.
tions of a financial, a war, a domestic, and a fareign Everything was reported home, and the documents
minister. The idea seemed to him (Lord Monteagle) to passed through the various departments. He could
be absurd. (Hear.) Tne noble earl had talked dispa- assure their lordships that if every member of the Council
ragingly of old Indians ; but what was the complaint were to attend every day for four or five hours there
they made against the company in 1833 ? Why, that it would be ample business for them to do. The great
did not elect old Indians for its directors ; but (those to difficulty was to have all the details and records before
confer the honour upon pity magnates, great bankers, them which were necessary, in order to arrive at a sound
and gentlemen of that description. Whati would their conclusion.
lordship not give to have an old Indian like Mount- (Here that portion of the ceiling fell in which is re-
stuart Elphinstone, or the late Sir Thomas Monroe ferred to in another column.)
amongst them that evening t Let them, therefore, hear Earl GRANVILLE moved the insertion of the words
no more of the cry against old Indians. (Hear.) He "Nor hold or carry on any other business, trade, or
confessed that he felt some alarm when he heard this new profession, from which any gain or profit may arise."
doctrine of government by a Secretary of State. He was The Earl of HARD WICKE supported the clause as
for a council—a council partly nominated and partly it stood.
chosen by election. He saw otherwise no resource but After a short conversation the house divided, when
a despotism, and the idea of a despotism drove him to there appeared—
Parliamentary interference, which he was satisfied was For the amendment 35
fraught with still greater dangers to the peace and seen-
Against 6O
rely of our Indian possessions. (Hear.) Majority —2s
Lord WODEHOUSE said the bill was neither more The clause was then agreed to, as were the clauses up
nor less than aCo apromise between those who were for to 20.
a controlling Council and those who were for an absolute Clauses 18 to 26 were agreed to with some verbal
Minister. The clauses of the bill negatived each other amendments,
on that principle. The practical result would be a bar- On clause 27, which relates to the sending out of secret
renness of powereand that would lead to a want of power, despatches,
which practically was the greatest evil that should be The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that it bad
guarded against. In that counterbalance of power they arrays been the practice for these despatches to be com-
municated to three persons—the chairman of the Court
would nee have an efficient council nor an efficient
Minister. of Directors, the deputy chairman, and one other direc-
Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE was not pre- tor. He thought they ought at least to be communicated
—pared to vote for the exclusion of the Council altogether, to one person.
nor wai he, on the other hand, prepared to go to the full The Earl of DERBY promised that an alteration to
this effect ehonal be made in bringing up the report.
extent of the bill. With respect to the number of the
Council, ho thought that a Council of five or seven wool] Earl GRANVILLE did not think that any further
e much more effective than so large a number. check was necessary, as on all important matters the
e
Indian Minster w arid c ,maeunicate with the Cabinet
Lord ASHBURTON sail that the want of security
that any particular line of policy on the part of the East of which he was a member.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE was in favour of the al-
India Company would be permanently pursued had ope-teration proposed by Lord Ellenberough.
rated very injuriously on the miudsof the naive princes
The clause was agreed to, as was clause 23.
and the people of India. As the Government had en
croached continually upon the powers of the East India On claw© 29.
Company, the company halfset themselves with all their Earl GRANVILLE suggested that the Governor-
hearts to recurs the services of the ablest men to aid General should retain the power of appointing his own
there in maintaining their positioe, and hence the die-
C ouncil.
tinguiehed ability by which the servants of the India The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that what the
Governor-General wanted was a representative Council.
Cerepanv had almost uniformly been characterised ; but
he contended that when this new Ceuncil wasestabliehed The Earl of DERBY promised to re consider the
a new department would be created difihring in no ma-
question.
tonal point from the Heme-office or any other public Clauses 30 and 31 were agreed to.
eepartment, and the abilities of its officials, conse- On clause 33,
T
he Bishop of OXFORD moved a proviso vesting the
qmnt'y, could not reasonably be expected, under the
circutne ances, to be superior to the abilities of the offi-
right of nominating to the chaplaincies in India in
cials of the Home-office, or of any other public depart-
future alternately in the Secretary of State for India
and in the bishop of the diocese in which the chaplaincy
meet now in existence.
is situated,
L era BEEPER, in de sues of the Council, said it
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH bore testimony to
would be monstrous to entrust the whole affairs ot India
the excellence of the clergy in India ; and he saw no
to the Secretary of State—a single member who knew
reason for altering the resent system, for he couldplace
little or nothing practically of Indian affeers. He ap-
quite as mach confidence in a Secretary ef State as in the
proved of there beang a Council whom the Secretary was
Board of Director,.
bound to consult—men tf int, lligence and of practical
The B shop of LONDON supported the amendment'.
experience in India—but he would leave the ultimate deci
In point of fact the clause as it stood created the greatest
neon cf :natter) in the heeds of the Minister, checked by
possible change, for it transferred to the Secretary of
his responsibility to Parliamena and by the record of
the minutes of members of the council who dissented State the appointment of all the chaplains, whereas the
frein his ante. Government Lai never yet hal any such patronage.
While anxious to respect the rights of our heathen fel-
Esrl GR aNVILLE made some explanations in rela- low-subjects, he should be glad to see some recognition
Lion to a firmer speech. He stated that altlecueh he
of our ewn req ion in the present b
per3ena'ly olij,cted to a council, he would nevertheless , 4 ' present ball.
Tee Earl of DELLDY thought it would be bettor to
advise his noble friend nut to press this matter to a divi- .
pref_erve the present status of the Indian chaplains,
-ion, and he would also advise the Govrnment not to 1,,..ame1y, as mere stipendiaries of the Indian G owernmt2nt.
,end hack the hilt to the other house with
the c-,urt-
..Areat,ino,mvaience had been felt, both at the F.feign
oil, as it was a point of the highest importance that the and tee C olonial-office, from distant chaplains being de-
bill should be passed this session. on their bishop, and from there pendent
.
The Marques of CLAN RICARDE said he did not conflict of au-ilia-Nee
doubt that the Secretary of S ate would be provided with ' '
The Bishop of OXFORD, in reply, said that in the
an efficient staff, hut he thought the Government had cases re ferred to the chaplains were dependent not on
not snfficiently informed the house as to what they cx- bishop: upon the spot, but on a bishop in this country.
pecte I would ba the result of the working of the arrange- He dal not see, therefore, that there was any ground for
meet. He could not expect that it would long last on the argument of the noble earl.
its pre=cut footing, but in order to make it last a little Tile amendment was nevertheless not persisted in, and
longer he shoal) move to insert in the clause the words the clause was agreed to.
not more than," which would make 15 the maximum, Vreported •
The CHAIRAN then
and allow the council to be reduced as vacancies occurred.
bills were advanced a
The Earl of DE R,BY said teat the number of 15 hal
half past 12.
been proposed by the Government simply because they
were assured that that was the smallest. number that
cenld execute the functions that would devolve upon it.
If the amendment of the noble mart-pis were adopted it
would utterly prevent any subsequent modification of
the arrangement. It would be far better to leave the met-
ter to the future deliberation of Parliament, for which
there was a provisi on, and he hoped the noble marquis
wool 1 not persist in an opposition which was really
directed as much ag-ainst the measure of the Govern-
ment of which he was a member as against that under
consideration.
The amendment was negatived without a division,
and the clause agreed to.
On clause 8, relative to the nominative members,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observed that the
average ace of the members of the council would be
60 years, making 900 years for the whole. He did not see
why men five or six years older should not be elected by
them, as the past directors of the company would be. He
heard there was an advantage in putting wine in a cellar
for five or six pare, but he did not think the principle
applied in the case of an old man being put on the shelf,
with a view to his returning to business,
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 9,
Tie Earl of DERBY said he should be willing to in-
troduce a clause into the bill for the purpose of main-
taining the balance between the elective and nominative
members.
The clause was agreed to.
On claws 10,
Tee Earl of SHAFTESBURY moved an amendment
to the effect that the members of council should not only
be men of Indian exnerience, but that they should have
returned from India during the last ten years.
The clause was agreed to.
Oa clause 11 being proposed,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH objected to the
clause, as it appointed gentlemen to the Council for life.
'The effect of this would be, that not one of these gentle-
men would resign at the end of ten years, at which period
the members of the Council were entitled to pensions,
for the purpose of inducing any one of them who bad be-
come incapable to resign, but he was sure that rot one
of them would resign at the end of ten wears. (A laugh.)
He therefore suggested that the period should be five
years when those gentlemen could reign.
The Earl of DERBY said it was usual to appoint
gentlemen to political offices during good behaviour, and
be thought that, practically, a gentleman entitled to re-
sign upon a pension at the end of a given period would
be induced to do so if he found himself incapable for the
performance of his duties.

ROUSE OF COM NI.ONS—( VESTERDAY.)
Tile SPEAKER took the chair shortly after 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Davidson's Estate Bill was read a second time.
The Lords' ainvadm,nts to the following private bills
were considered and agreed to :—Birkenhead Improve-
ment Commissioners (Gas and Water) Bill ; Oxford,
Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway Bill, and
Windsor New R lad Bill.
CORRUPT PRACTICES PREVENTION ACT
CONTINUANCE BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill, resuming
the consideration of clause 1 relative to the payment by
the candidate of the travelling expenses of the voter.

A lengthened discussion ensued, in which the argu-
ments urged yesterday were again repeated.
Mr. K. HUG ESSEN suggested the fallowing pro-
viso :—Provided always, that such payments shall not
exceed one shilling F:r mile to every such voter for any
distance less than ten miles, and sixpence per mile for
every additional mile : Provided also, that if the dis-
tance to be travelled by any such voter exceed ton
miles, and there be available railway accommodation,
the payments for travelling expenses shall not exceed
the maximum rate cf fare chargeable on such railway
for such distance.
Mr. WALPOLE repeated what he said yesterday,
pass hpeatyween for conveyances,
the candidates
that he was ready to incorprate in his bill the proviso
a the hon. member for the Tower Hamle (Mr. Ayr-
tbouat
that).T
and the voter=.Tae conamittea divided upon Mr. Ayrton'e proviso :
'For the proviso
The candidates
aonnejy tt e
should jgt
145
Against it., 39
Majority —lo6

Mr. AVlTON'Sproviso thus became the origieal reso-
lution, and bad to be put again from the chair. The
question of its adoption led to another division, when
the numbers were-7

For the resolution 133
Against it
Majority
The resolution was thus carried.
On the motion of Mr. WALPOLE, the following
proviso was added :—" Provided al ways that a full,
true, and particular account of all such payments, signed
by the candidate or his agents, shall be delivered to the
election auditor, with the names and addresses of the
persowto whom such payments have been made, and
the amount of such account shall be included in the
general account of the expenses incurred at any election,
to be made out and kept by such election auditor."
Mr. O:3BORNE said there appeared considerable
doubt on the nature of a vote. One gentleman looked
upon it as a right, another regarded it as a privilege,
a third viewed it as a trust. For his own part, he looked
upon it as a perquisite. (Laughter.) He thought that
candidates should not be called upon to pay anything
out of their own pockets f elections, and he should
therefore move as an addition to the clause that the
candidate should be reimbursed for his expenses out of
the coanty, city, or borough rate, as the case might be,
on which the voter's name appeared on the register.
Sir J. GRAHAM considered tha, this chase would
convert the bill into a taxing measure—that it would be
a money bill, and that it could not be put.
Mr. FITZROY decided that it only provided for ex-
penses out of local rates, and therefore was not a taxing
clause.
Mr. OSBORNE having withdrawn his amendment,
it became the duty of the chairman to put tea questio❑
that clause 1, as amended, stand part of the bill.

E trl GRANVILLE supported the suggeetion of the
coble earl opposite (the Earl of 14.:11enhoreugh).
After a few words from Lord DENMAN, the clause was
agreed to.
On clause 12 being proposed,
The Earl of SH A F rEsBuRY said that if they passed
this clause by which persons who were to be appointed
members of the Council would he excluded from seats in
most efficienstirpeer.socnasnifprobmentliewbCoounnocil.
ulLdobre
d
Parliameut, they would practically exclude some of the
rpaaisiebd" t4ojet'he peerage—and such like persons, would be
doubtßy wiot
ineLgible to seats at the Council. He begge,d, therefore,
to propose that three of the members should be eligible
to seats in Phrliarneut.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE hoped the noble earl at
the head of the Government would concede the priccip e of
his noble friend's amendment, far if they did not they
would shut out from the Council some of the very best men
that could be selected for that body, as able and intelli-
ger
uponitcrni
pet haafttetirw their returnpoaudsinag their lives in India, bad a great
desire
apply
po
lmy
threebe iin Pwaortliilatim:pnptl.y Why,toa
then, should such persons be declared to be ineligib'e to
sit on the C)ucil to be formed under this bile ? The
p
and he really thought that all the metn-
lhaer;se or fn throe
e' Council ought to ho eligible to seats in l'ar-
Itarnc,nt.
After a few words from the Dake of AIAUL-
BOTIOUGA,
The Eta of ELLENBOROUGII exdressed a hope
that the noble earl at the bead of the Government would
adhere to the clause as it mood, and he believed that the
proposed ahem. ion would lead to great inconvenience.
Rid GRANVILLE thought they ought to know
whether the members cf Council were to give up the
cvhole of their time to the business of their office.
'fee Earl of DERBY said the intention of the Govern-
ment was that these gentlemen should not, be dillettanti
members of the Council, but shctrld give adequate
time to their duties, and consider those duties to
be the first and primary object. As to the clan e
in question, the question really was between absolute
admission and absolute exclusion. It had been very
fully discussed in the other house, and the argument
wAela carried matt weight e as, that if those gentlemen
we: e allowed to sit in Par Lament, great f .cilities would
be given for ministerial col tu7tion. Ni limitation as to
nueetier Rza poesible, and having, therefore, to chorise

The committee divided—
For the clause ........................... 125
Against it ................................. 63
Majority. ......................... —57
The clause cv,:s agreed to,

On clause 2.
Mr. WALPOLE proposed that no election auditor
for any single deet:on should receive more than 201. in
fees and camna!ssions.
M r.
E oGf?
The clause, with this proviso, was agreed to.
Clauses 3 and 4 were agreed to, and the bill passed
through committee.
lthlle T
followingo clause Fur better securing
, far Mr. MACAULAY, moved the
addition
to returning officers the expenses incurred by them in
taking pulls at elections, be it enacted, That the persons
proposing aty candidate shall be jointly liable with such
candidate for the payment by flint to the returning offi-
cer of an equal share of the said expenses."
Trio committee divided. The numbers were—
For the clause . .................. 144
Against It
Majority --110
The clause was added to the bill.
The house resumed, the other orders were disposed of,
and the house suspended its sittings at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
THE PRAYER BOOK.

C, HAMILTON, o,Auptrofler of the Household,

appeared at the bar of the house with her Majesty's
gracious answer relative to an address with reference to
the discontinuance of the service on the 512 November,
the 31st ',of January, and the 29th of May, stating that
it should receive the careful consideration which its im-
portance demanded.

sidered this the beginning of a new system, Wand he
denied that it was the climax of religious freedom. They
committed great error in repealing the Test Act, but
that having been done it had been found impossible to
resist changes and alterations, and it ever would be so.
It was useless now to discuss the question whether they
would have the Jew amongst them or not, on religious
or irre'igious grounds. That bad been decided, and as
this was a bill that was least likely to create disturbance,
he should support the second reading of the bill.
(Divide.)

Mr. DILLWYN contended the House of Commons
would have been justified in seating Baron Rothschild
by resolution. (Hear, hear, and divide.) He thought the
measure urratisfactory and objectionable. IR would net
admit the Jew unless they passed another bill for that
purpose, viz., the Oaths Bill. He should, however, sup-
port the reading, to get over a practical difficulty, but
he by no means considered it an effectual measure.
(Hear, hear, and divide.) If a Jew were properly qua-
lified that house bad no right to say he should not sit
in that house.

Mr. Secretary WALPOLE said that whatever might
be the measure Parliament might pass, if any hon. mem-
ber apprehended evil would come from it it was their
duty, in whatever minority they might be, to record
their opinions. (Hear, hear.) He would not discuss the
principle of the question again, but he begged to state
that he had seen no reason to change his opinion, even
although this bill might be supported by those for whom
he entertained sincere respect ; and he could not sup-
port the second reading of the bill. He thought it would
have been better for the House of Lords to have frankly
passed the Oaths Bill instead of adopting this patch-
work legislation, and which would not lead to a perma-
nent settlement of the question. After some farther re-
marks, the right hon. gentleman said he protested
strongly against this mode of legislation—(hear, hear)—
which destroyed generality of legislation.
Lord PALMERS TON expressed his dissatisfaction at
the mode of legislation, but he supported the bill on the
ground of expediency and the justice of admitting Jews
to Parliament. He was content to receive the bill as the
first instalment of a complete measure. (Hear, hear.) He
could not doubt that the House of Lords, after having
passed this bill. would on a future day refuse to pass a
complete bill. (Hear, b7ar, and divide.)
Mr. MALINS, amidst loud cries of " Divide," expressed
his regret the House of Lords had not decided the ques-
tion on general grounds, and allow a Jew to be a member
of both houses.
The house then divided. The numbers were—
For the second reading ~ 156
Against it
Majority infavour of the second reading— —9l
The bill was then declared to bo read a second time, and
was ordered to bo committed on Monday.