The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 20, 1858,

y g
the principle of competition, but
lhe had sbtuattetdbetwhabtrdsh:
proposed to amend the clauseeav
"and the candidates who may be found
such df,entitled unds
such regulations shall be recommended .
cadet-
ships according to the order of their proficiency as shown
to th e
omits ec o nt (lb
orseea dwi nogr
dhse.
had announce
by such examdinabtiisonisn.
't'entiOonci
The clause provided that candidates were to be admit-
ted to the artillery and engineers on examination,
under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of State,
acting with the advice cf his council. He thought that
competition was a mode of appointment which they
ought to watch ; but if there was any portion of the ser-
vice, civil or military, in which competition could be
fairly applied, it was the scientific branch of the mili-
tary service. The Royal Artillery and the Royal Engi-
neers were subject to the strictest competition and ex-
amination. There was competition for entering Wool-
wich, and competition for getting out into the army, and
they were still liable to be rejected if their conduct and
qualifications were not adequate to the promise they
had given. If a person was proved guilty of being un-
gentlemanly in his habits, dissipated in his conduct, his
claim was disallowed, and if there were proper regula-
tions for the examination, he could not see that any risk
was incurred. His noble friend had said that there was
strict competition at Addiscombe. He said that we had
Isecurity for having gentlemen at Addiscombe. He could
not say that he agreed with his noble friend that be-
cause a person happened to be the son of a grocer, a
tailor, or a cheesemonger, provided he had the necessary
qualifications, he should not obtain a commission.
(Hear, hear.) What a man's origin was was nothing,
what was necessary was that he should have proper
qualifications, in the way of scientific attainments and
moral character ; and if he found a man having those
qualifications, he did not care what was his birth, he
was entitled to obtain the position. .The cadets at Ad-
discombe had certainly great advantage in the high cha-
racter of their professors. He could not understand on
what principle his noble friend contended that that
which was introduced into every department of the civil
service at home and of the royal army, and more rigidly
as to the scientific departments of the royal army, ought
not to be introduced into the Indian army. If they had
laid down a strict rule that the men who succeeded on
examination should take priority of all others, it would be
subject to many serious objections, but if the clause only
provided that there should be examinations for persons
entering the scientific corps, there was no such objection.
He could not understand on what principle those who ad-
vocated competition in the civil service,and especially for
the scientific branch of the military service, could object
to the clause, which would only give security that many
of the candidates for this service had a large amount of
scientific knowledge necessary to enable them to dis-
charge the duties.
The Duke of SOM EMIT agreed that the Indian ar-
tillery had been, up to the present time, excellent, and
indeed Sir C. Napier had said that it was second to no
artillery in the world. This question had been brought
before him when he was a member of a commission on
the subject, and on that occasion Mr. P. Melville said
that Addiscombe was the military college for officers for
the scientific corps, and that they admitted double the
number of cadets required in order to have fall competi-
tion. Before admission the candidates passed a prelimi-
nary examination. This system had been in force many
years at Addiscombe. There was there competition no
doubt, and the same system was adopted in Franca and
Austria. What he feared in the system of the Govern-
ment was that there was to be competition without any
system of military discipline. He thought it was most
desirable that young gentlemen in passing through the
college should pass through a system cf military disci-
pline. He thought that Addiscombe, instead of being
done away with, ought to be enlarged. Perhaps it was
desirable to remove the establishment at Addiscombe to
llaileybury, which was a larger building. In his opinion
no one should enter the Indian artillery without having
previously passed through a military college.
Earl GRANVILLE saw no advantage in retaining
this clause, if the noble earl (Derby) could not tell them
what he intended to do with regard to Addiscombe and
the native scientific branches of the army.
The Earl of HARDWICKE thought the scientific
brandies of the Indian army must be dealt with iu mush
the same manner that the scientific branches of the royal
army had been. This clause would do more with regard
to the former service than had already been done with
regard to the latter.
'The Duke of NEWCASTLE agreed with his noble
friend near him (the Duke of Somerset) that this clause
was useless, and thought its natural tendency wool I be
to destroy the college at Addiscombe. They bad already
lost one of the London colleges—viz., Haileybury ; and
he believed that one of the best things that the uew Se-
cretary of State for India could do would be to re-estab•
lish that college as speedily as possible. It was linpoB- 1
sible, he thought, for any one to have studied the history
of India without lrarnicg that a special education was
rtquisite both for the military and the civil service.
Lord CRANWORTH said it was true the noble earl
(D:rby) had, by the amendment which he proposed, re-
moved the principal objection to the douse, but he had ,
not told them what was to besubstituted for the omission.
The Earl of DERBY remarked that Lis objecti )n to
the concluding words of the clause was that they would
interfere with the constitutional exercise of the power of
the Crown. Hitherto the competitive principle had always
been applied under the direct authority of the Crown, and
he thought that it ought still to be left where it was.
Lord MONTE AGLE expressed hisdecided opposition
to any proposal which would endanger the continuance
of Addiscombc
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he should like
ts see a second military college at Haileybury, and the
same competitive examination for the students of the
new c 'liege and of Addiscombe. One great advantage
of such an arrangement would be that there would vir-
tually be competition between the professors of the two
colleges as well as the students. His noble friend (the
Earl of Hardwick() seemed to think it desirable that the
system introduced into her Maje,ty's army should be in-
trodccad into the army of India. He would caution their
lerdsbips against adopting the price pie of assimilation,
against attempting to assimilate the Indian to the Eng-
lish army. They all knew what great advantages were
derived last year from the differences between the Ben-
gal, the Bombay, and the Madras armies. Those differ-
ences Ind prevented the spreading of the mutiny, and
saved our Indian empire, and they might depend upon it
their security there rested upon differences, and not upon
assimilation.
Lord BROUGHTON considered it very undesirable
that Addiscombe should be dune away with.
The Earl of DERBY said the clause did not hint at
Addiscerebe.
Lord BROUGHTON—No ; but it gives the govern-
ment power with respect to Addiscombe.
The Earl of DERBY—It gives the Government no
power with regard to Addiscseabe which it has not pos-
sessed already. It does not interfere with Addiscombe.
Lord BROGUEITON--But it gives the Government
power to substiqite another education for that of Addis-
combe.
The Earl of DERBY—It does not give any power,
and it does net take away the power which the Govern-
meat posz.:esses at this moment.
Lord BROUGHTON—But under this clause the
Government had an additional power, and a sort of re-
commendation to apply it. He hoped the noble earl
would consider this a-mon, the other infirmities of the
bill. (Laughter.) There Cal hardly been a considerable
man of late years in India who did not owe his educa-
tion to Addiscombe, and the most eminent residents had
come from that establishment.
After a few words from the Earl of -...-PLLENBOROLIGH,
Their lordships then divided on the question that the
clause, as amended, stand part of the bill—
Contents .... ... 4l
No'. contents
Majority —7
The clause was therefore agreed to.

.. _
Oa clause 33, regulating the appointment to cadasbiP s
The Earl of ALBEMARLE objected to the clause.'
As it stood it gave all the patronage to the new Cour,
1 ail, and showed the influence exerciecd on the Govern-
ment by the Court cf Direesors. lie believed the publ.o
would not consent to give the patronage to the Govern-
ment, and therefore the only remedy wao an amendment
such as he Lad given notice of. He believed all the
evils of the administration could be traced to the ays•
tem of patronage. The appointments to the cavalry,
instead of being given at Addiscombe, wi.re re-
served for the ariatocracy of Leadenhall street, and to
increase their patronage. The regular cavalry w,re
preferred to the irregular, which was more serviceable
and more economical. -Re thought the clause ought to
be struck out, and that which he proposed or some
othtr be subeti tut. d. • ..

between TheE attleouf
obe
eDERBYatr, couldspeee
speech
not n
d
t o
t i tnf
which he kati given notice. His proposal was to give a!
the patronage to three members of the „Council to l
chosen by the Secretory of State; as the bill stood the
secretary would have two nominations; out of 17. The
noble earl thought that too much, and therefore pro-
posed to give cne-eigth directly, and 'the other seven-
eighths indirectly, though the three members to be
named by him, who were to receive their full salaries of
1,200/., although remaining members of the Council,
were not to take any part in the government of India.
Earl GRANVILLE did not think it advisable thus
to stereotype the mode of nomination, it would be
making it a sort of property of the Council. He thought
the subji:ct shoull be left to future regulation.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 41,
The Duke of SOMERSET objected that under this
clause neither the Governor-General nor the Secretary
of State would have any power to expend any money,
The Earl of DERBY said th 3 clause did not at all in-
terfere with the powers now vested in the Governor.
General, it only subjected the expenditure to the revi-
sion of the council.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUG a remarked that the
clause did not at all a'ter the position of the Guvercor-
General—the c uncil was substittred for the Court of
D rectors, who now revised all the expenditure.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 52, relating to the audit of accounts,
The Eatl of ELLEN BOROUGH said he ha] an
amendment to propose in the chuse. Hs considered it
only jest to protect the revenues of India from being
charged with any expendittire to which they were not
properly applicable, and he leered the council would not
be as careful as the Ccurtsof Directors were. He pro-
pseud to extend the powers the auditors, and with that
'view to add the words, " Especially noting any pa 3.-
monk if such there be, in which it shall appear to bins
any money coming out of the revenues of India has been
arm;ied to other purposes than those cf the government
of India."
The Earl of DERBY believed the clause as it stood
afforded sufficient protection, but he would consider the
amendment. The
!he next Wage of the bill.
NbeTfEorAe
p
present syst, m ofublic audit in this country was not
G LE supported the
I;aLorddinklenOt
satisfactory, and the last report had recommended are.

turn to the old system of the auditor reporting direct to
Parliament. He would recommend the same system
with regard to Indie.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH did not think it pos.,
sible to improve the present system of accounts at Lead-
enhall-street.
The clause was then agreed to.
Oa clause 53, accounts to be laid annually before Par-
liament,
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY moved to add a pro-
viso that the accounts be accompanied by a statement giv-
ing an abstract of what had been done during the year to
improve railwaye, roads, and canals, the number of Euro-
pean settlers andsoldiers in each presidency, the mortality,
the number of schools and colleges, members attending,
books used, ire the statement being prepared in such a
manner as to exhibit the moral and material progress of
each presidency.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH should not object if
he thought the preparation of the statement would not
cost too much, or would be read by anybody except the
noble earl and one or two others.
After some conversation the clause was agreed to.
On clause 54, which requires that the order for the
commencement of hostilities be communicated to Parlia-
ment one month after their actual commencement,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH objected to the
clause as it stood. Five weeks must elapse before the
order for the commencement of actual war arrived in
India, and five weeks more must elapse before it was
known that the Governor-General had declared war. He
did not believe that any man in his senses would give an
order for the commencement of actual hostilities under
such circumstances. Practically it would be a notifica-
tion to the state against which proceedings were to be
taken. If this had been the law before the late Persian
war he did not believe that either Busbire or Moham-
merah would have bean taken.
The Earl of DERBY said he was at a loss to under-
stand the objection of his noble friend. If an order was
sent out directicg the commencement of actual hostilities
he thought it was not unreasonable that Parliament, if
then sitting, should be informed of the fact that such an
order had been sent out within one month after. How
that could be a notice to the enemy be could not under-
stand. Ha did not think the instance selected by his
noble friend was a happy one, because if ever there was
an unconstitutional proceeding it was that Persian war,
which was commenced, carried on, and ended without
Parliament having the slightest knowledge that they
were going to war, what the grounds of the quarrel
were, or what they were fighting about. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH. said be was not going
to defend what had been done by the late Government,
but whether right or wrong in their policy, the war had
been successful. He believed that the clause would never
be acted upoe. Suppose, for instance, when the order
to commence the Persian war had been sent out,
the Indian mutiny had broken forth, and that the Gover-
nor-General did not act upon the order under the circum-
stances, would not the communication to Parliament one
month after the order had been sent out be a notification
to Persia of their intention I
Lord WODEHOUSE suggested two months instead
of one.
The Duke of CAMBRIDGE thought the object of
the clause was a vary desirable one, but care should bo
taken that the interests of the country did nct suffer.
For that reason he thought it desirable that the time
should be extended.
Lord CRANWORTH said that the late Government,
after mature deliberation, agreed to the clause, but the
noble earl (Ellenborough) pointed out such difficulties
arising from the distance of India from this country as
might make it positively mischievous to act upon the
clause.
The. Earl of DERBY said that if this clause, which
was verbatim the same as when it was aereed to by the
members of the late Government, had been so maturely
considered by the late Cabinet, he was at a loss to know
why they charged their opinion. Was it that they sat
on the other side of the heuee ? He would not object to
the two months.
Earl GRANVILLE thought the charge of change of
opinion was an extraordinary 0.-:e to come from the
no ;le, earl whose government changed their opinion not
only with re;eird to the subject of India, but with regard
to almost every other suhjsct. (hear.) It was very
possible for men to come honestly an l conscientiously to
an opini n, and on further argument to change that
el)trion. (Hear.) He did not think the argument of
the noble earl (E 13r:borough) had been answered, and
he could not help thinking it would be better to insert
three months instead of one or two. By the end of the
month they would be sure of having received the answer
of the Governor-General.
The clause was then egreed to, two months being sub-
stituted instead of oue as in the clause (as was understood).
On clause 55, which refers to the employment of the
Indian army beyond the frontiers of India,
The Earl of DERBY proposed a new clause instead,
for the purpose of getting rid of the constitutional ob-
jection which had been urged to the old clause.
Bail GRANVILLE said that the object of the clause
was a good one. Mr. F, x suggested something of the
kind forairily, and so did Mr. Pitt, but they failed, and
was there the slightest chance, if the clause biome law,
of its Ming more successful ? Tne Indian army was not
to be employed outside the Indian frontiers except to
repel an invasion or on some urgent and sudden neces-
sity without the consent of Parliament. As he said be-
f,3re, no war was justifiable except the case was urgent,
and some suddenness was always connected with a mili-
tary operation. What was the meaning of the consent
of Parliament 1 Waq an act of Parliament to be got
Was there any other mode of expressin4 its consent ? If
so, it ought to be embodied in the clause. By this clause
the Governor-General might be deterred from doing
things which it would ba his duty to do.
The Earl of DERBY said it had been supposed that
the object of the clause was to impose a restriction cn
the prerogative of the Crean with respect to the Indian
army on brLign expeditions. [he clause had no such
obkct, and it would have no such effect. After this
clause pages I the Crown would hts at liberty to employ in
any quarter of the world every eiagle man engaged in
the Indian service during the period of his service. It
being the undoubted prerogative of the Crown to make
war and peace, the only constitutional check upon that
prerogative was the sanction cf Parliament to the pecu-
niary arrangement., without whierla no tr ops could be
removed. This cause was introduced for the protection
of the Indian revenue, and it provided that Indian troops
should not quit their own territory except for the pm-
pose of preventing actual invasion ; or if they did, that
the expenses should be defrayed cut of the revenues of
this country; and not out of the revenues of India. It
did not prevent the employment cf Indian troops by the
Queen, but it. is said that if the Queen employed these
troops in other than wars within the territories of India,
it should be for ThllliatneLt to decide whether these were
Indian or imperial objects. If this clause Wa► not agreed
to, it would be cimpetent for an unconstitutional sove-
reign to employ the whole of the revenue and troops of In-
dia in carrying on a war for any purpose which the Crown
might direct, without being obliged to came to Parlia-
meet f:r a single shilling. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENIFOROUGH thought the bill bad
taken the best securi y against that, LT it gave the
Council a power of vetoing any measure of that kind.
The directors refused to pay for the China expadiiion ;
and if they had not agreed to pay half the expenses of
the Persian s xeedition, they could net be called upon
for one abiflug towards the expenses cf that win It
was for that reason he cantidered the clause wool I be in-
operative. Ho helievcd. the only effect of the ;lame
would be to tie up the sword of the Governor-General,
to paralyse his diplomacy, and to lead to the very wars
which it was intended to prevent.
The committee then divided—
Per the new clauee,
Against it
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses down to 70 were agreed to without discussion.
On Clan 71, V• I Let clause
The Earl of DERBY stated, in answer to a question
from Earl Granville, that on the bill coming into ope•
ration iu India a proclamation would be issued by the
Crown,:'; atieg the principles on which the government
of the country would be carried on. (Hear.)
The house then resumed, and the report was ordered
to be received this day.
The Navigation Advances ([reload) Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The Prescriptions (Ireland) Bill was read a third time
and passed.
The Local Government Bill was read a second time.
The Mi:itia Ballots Suspension Bill passed through
committee.
The house adjourned at 12 o'clock.

52
16 -

HOUSE OF COMIONS—(YrsTERDAt.)
METROPOLITANILOCAL MANAGE UENT ACT

AMENDMENT BILL.
Inn' J. MANNERS said that he had often heard
that that house Ras subject to hot and cold fits, but he
had never seen that assertion more fully proved than by
the debates which had taken place on this question within
the last three weeks. Her Majesty's Govevement was
threatened with nothing less than impeachment unto
within 24 hours they settled this question, and at that
time be (Lord J. Manners) put in a dilatory plea, stating
that the Government had the matter under considera-
tion,and begged that the house would not in its excite-
rnent press at once for an authoritative decb-ion. But
the Government having had time for consideration, and
having formed a scheme which they recommended the
h •tve to adopt, it was met by the hon. members for
Huddersfield, for Buteshire, and Nee castle-upon-Tyne,
with a serious opposition, and the Government were told
that they were rushing to a conclusion on a question
which might very well wait till next year, as his right
hon. Wend (Mr. Wortley) said, he believed, until the
coal duties expire in 1862. (No, from Mr. Wortley.)
Why were thf y to wait another year? Some gentlemen
seemed to thine: that this was a new question on which
soientifie men had not made up their minds, but having
had to look into the subject, he (Lord J. Manner-) knew
that no subj ct had been more x‘mined into and c
tiered, and in fact so thoroughly thrashed out as that of the
main drainage of the metropolis. If hon. gentlemen would
rrflcct en the number of schemes which had been proposed,
and the quantity of evidence •shich had been brought for-
ward, trey could not say that the Government were
aboot to settle the question in haste. He could only
say that if the hou-e was deliberately of opinion thit no
eeoi,ion should be come to on the question this y:ar,
0-1 the House of Commons would rest the re,ponstoility
f losing, perhaps, the only opportunity of dealing with
tie subject. On the part of the Government he de-
clared that they had been prepared to take the respon-
Tw'
ha sechfefT. responsibilitymi i oetnnobt of
s.b 1 ty of action, and then on the howls meat rest the
it nf
taohrc
et
Newcastlei
onlyn.
mode(H ee (Hear.)
a.o)ifd
dealingtTh ha et t Gb
this
vwqe
iurtneh
question
tieohnnet
ehonolndlybethdeeadltrawinitahg
question was to be Lund in the f ,nr corners of this bill.
eaasnda pwuhroilfiecaLtyriont,hbeuGtotvheernelmnbeannt—
not k.
merit of the Thames ; but the hon. gentleman did not
in the course of his long and
able B ^pee.h • give an inkling

as to how the Government was to pay for all this. Would
the hon. gentleman "give the Government the ways and
means? Out of what fends did the hon. gentleman
propose that the Government should do all this? Were
they as a pure and naked despotism to take out of the
pockets of the ratepayers the money required for such
works, or were they to be considered as national ex-
penses, and to be borne out of the consolidated fund.
(Hear.) If so he (Lord J. Manners) should decline to
be the person to make such a proposition to Parliament.
Then what was L ft but to invest a great municipality,
which, if anything did, represented the ratepayers with
powers necessary to effect the required object. He
had heard with surprise the comments which had been
made on the Metropolitan Board of Works. That
body had originated with a liberal Government, of
which the light honourable gentleman the member
for Kidderminster was a member, who had spoken
eo strongly of what be called a quasi representative
body. He (Lord John Manners) supposed that the
intention of the legislature was to be found in the pream-
ble of the act, which declared that "it was expedient for
the better local government of the metropolis in regard
to the sewerage, lighting, and cleansing thereof." The
act compelled the 'Metropolitan Board of Works to take
up the very question of the main drainage and purifica-
tion of the Thames. Let him ask whether the Govern-
ment under whose auspices that act was passed believed
that they were setting up a sham and a pretence, or a
municipality, or did they believe that they were creating
an effective municipality for the government of this vast
n e'ropolia ? He was bound to come to the latter con-
clusion, and therefore he had listened with surprise to
the denunciations which had been delivered against that
body. His right hon. friend (Mr. Wortley) said that it
was impossible to entrust such powers as were proposed
by the bi 1 to the Board of Works, and he said that he
did not know the names of its members. It was possible
that he did not know their names, but were all corpora-
tions worthless unless his right hon. friend knew the
birth and parentage of all their members I He (Lord
J. Manner ) protested against this mode of dealing with
the subject. They found in existence a great muni-
cipality
which three years ago was created for metro-
politan purposes, and every impartial man would admit
that if the Metropolitan Board had not carried out
a plan for the drainage of London, the blame did
not lie at their door exclusively. (Hear, bear.) Tee
Government had found that the powers of the Metro-
politan Board of Works were not sufficient to enable
them to perform their functions ; and they came to Par-
liament and asked Parliament to give them the neces-
sary powers. Ho had abstained on this occasion from
showedth the q utehae-
te
inntne: ring
a do
won
bt
ahte
bsac
di e not
ci ficcu
rarnedd cthbeamt ice
evening
le
npianrgt
nobleadvantage of
dbanv
having
g enteringurge on h
d tb, t t
honestatai s e ls
thingsestheme.
had
beenTh
said on both sides with referenco to the plan of the
Metropolitan Board of Works, and that of the referees
of Sir B. Hall, proceeded to entreat the house not to be
led into a discussion on engineering questions, for if they
did they must constitute themselves a perpetual select
committee on the subj€cfe If they agreed with him so
far, he would ask, if it was shown that the powers of the
Metropolitan Board of Works were not sufficient for
that purpose, if the house was determined that the
national resources should not be called on to pay the
expenses of such a work, and if they thought that the
local inhabitants, who woull have to pay, should have
a voice in the matter, which he for one would earnestly
insist on, what better plan could be adopted than that
proposed by the bill 1 And until some other plan,
which held out greater certainty and a better hops that
the great work which they desired should be accom-
plished, he entreated the house not to lose perhaps the
last slop ertunity of giving that board sufficient powers
which three years ago was created as an efficient and
, popular representative of the great metropolis. He could
not sit down without answering a question put earlier in
the evening by the hon. member for Eiesharn, who
asked what was the nature of the rating powers of the
beard. The, power wan that of sewer-rating, which
existed before. There bad been no alteration of the
nature of the rating by the bill. It was called a land-
lord's rate, ared unless in leases there were specific
powers to the contrary, it was payable by the landlords.
The noble lord concluded by earnestly urging on the
house to read the hill a seem time.
Mr. GLAD: IONE said the framework of the hill
presented great d He wished to know who
would be u:tiwately responsible for the payment of the
money. ((Tear, hear.) It was intended that the
charge should be borne by the metropolis, but the public
often became involved unaware in pecuniary responsi•
bilitiee, and he should like to know how the bill pro-
vided for the responsibility in this respect. (Elear )
in many cases the House of Commons had as,ented tv
proeonitions, and then, after I-et:Wises the plies in the
preamble f a LP, had given its legisletive sanction. lie
did not obj ct to the application of the principle of a
public guarantee in a metter so important as the pre-
sent ; tut the application ought to bo wa'ched and scru-
tinised with severe jealousy. He wished to a=certain
the rtspansibility of the body to whom the guarantee
was to be given, and to avoid stepping into a position
in which it might be said the whole affair was done by
the authority of Parliament, and Parliament ought to
pay for it. He did not find from the bill that this was
a popular responsible body requiring aid in the shape of
a grant. 0., the contrary, Parliament seemed to be
made the absolute authors and projectors of the scheme.
(Rear, hear.) It was no doubt advisable to avoid dis-
cussing engineering and other details of a similar na-
ture. He agreed with the noble lord that it was im-
possible to arrive at a satilactory conclusion on these
matters. But then the house: ought to have the best
possible assurance that these matters had been ade-
quately and competently decided by those with whom
they were c'ealieg. (Hear, hear.) From the discus-
, sions which had taken place, and the pamphlets which
bad been published, it appeared to him that the ques-
tion had not yet arrived at that maturity which would
enable the house to deal with it in a satisfactory manner.
At present hon. members were not able to stand on their
Own conli Atone or on the competencyof those with whom
they were dealing ; and they tsujet to deal with some
body which was competent to arrive at a correct con-
clusion. (Hear, hear.) The bill did not even say that
the Board of Works had approved of any scheme. It
contained in a few clause; the recognition and sanction
of a plan which was understood to be the plan of the
Board of Wank?. Buttbat plan waste be promulgated on
the authority of Parliament ; and then would come the
question of the ultimate liability. (Hear.) Suppose the
plan should fail, or that the 3,000,0001. shoul I bo found
to be insufficient for its execution. One cr both of these
events might happen. (Hear.) And what, then, would
be the case of the inhabitants of the metropolis ? Would
they not b able to point to the bill and say, "Ts was
not with our will that this was done, and it was not done
on the petition of those whom we appoint al—it was n, t
undertaken at the time we chose; but it was the ir,flu•
once of the disagrer able odour of the Thames that brought
the matter to maturity. The provisions of the bill
r the
but o
from a
not dictated by a regard to popular principle,
conviction that you understood the questi
reckless haete to escape personal and bodily annoyance."
(Hear.) If the Haile lord fully understood the question,
and lilt the ground secure under hie feet, he congratu-
lated Lin on his happy condition. But, along with mary
others, he frankly owned that he should feel great com-
fort and satisfaction if further time were afforded for
consideration behite Ow house gave its sanction to any
plan. (Clear )

MV. Alderman CUBITT felt confident that if the
Metropolit n Beard of Works was invested with entire
power to devi.se a scheme, taking in charge also the pub-
lic and moral respon,ibility,they, would discharge their
duty in such a way as to satisfy all the requirements of
public opinion. , There was a defect in the second clause
which he booed to sae remedied in committee.
Mr. CONINGfIA.NI believed the proposed scheme
would prove to be a colossal failure, and he would warn
the inhabitants of the metropolis that this was a direct
attempt upon their pockets ; and the house would find,
having forced the metropolis into this vast expenditure,
that they would eventually have to aid the drainage of
the metropolis out cf the national exchequer. (Hear.)
S:r B. LIALL intended to support the second reading
of the bill, but wished to state one particular reason
which induced him to take that course. It ,vas essentially
necessary, in taking seeps for the purification of the
Thames, that the provisions which he inserted in his bill
should be enacttd in the present, and that the Metropo-
litan Bard should have those powers of raising money
which were proposed in 1855. There were some clauses
in the present bill which required great consideration,
and to which considerable opposition would be given.
The right bon. gentkenesu the =member for Bute had re-
(erred to the rep rt of the commissioners appointed in
1853. and he could assure the right hon. gentleman that
the bill f. r the 1 ,cal management of the metropolis was
framed as nearly as possible in accordance with the re-
con-emendations of the commissioner?. It might be con-
venient flr him to state the intentions of the Govern-
ment with regard to the constitution of that board. I. n
introducing the bill he said---" With regard to the chair.
man, he propwei that the Metropolitan Board of Works
should select three names, not necessarily from their own
body, or from any district board, but that they should
have power to select from the whole length and breadth
of the kingdom three persons, any one of weom would
be fit and proper to occupy the high office he wouldonld be
called upon to fill, and thoroughly coalified to discharge
i
the important functions attendant upon it. These names
should be sent to the Secretary a State, and the latter
should erase two, the remaining one to be tbo presidentof
the Metropolitan Board. He proposed that the chairman
should be paid a salary of not less than 1,5001., and not more
than 2,0001. a-year, and that he should hold office during
good bet aviour. This body would have power to levy
rates for improvements, read also,
when necessary, to
take land out of their district for the purpose of outfall
works, as at present it was not possible to carry out the
drainage e f the metropolis, because there was no power
to make the arterial drains be.) and a certain limit. This
board would have power to make intercepting sewers for
the purification of t'e Tbame7 and would ho empowered
to borrow money from the Treasury, to be paid within
50 yews. Teat was the tame proposed by the Go-
vernment, but the house thought proper to alter it, and
determined that the chairman should be elected by the
hoard, who, of course, selected one of their own body.
An 4 with regard to the power of borrowing money from
the Treasury, that provision war also struck out. He
wished now to-call the attention of the noble lord to the
second clause of the bill. By the first clause the Metro-
pulitan Bard were directed to commence their work
within a reaFonablo period. In the second clause the
p int'r of on fall were defined. They were to be higher
than the west bank cf B 'eking Creek on the one side,
and not higher than Croesnes Point in Briar Marshes
on the other side. He thought that point much too
near London; but that was a matter for consideration
in committee. He objected strongly to the proviso
which enabled the Metropolitan Board to discharge the
-43 sage, if they should think in any part of the me-
ropclie. It wool lbe extremely difficult, if not impos-
sible, to Establish deodorising works within the metro-
politan area at the outfalls of the sewers, and he trusted

the noble lord would reconsider that point before giving
power to the board to erect deodorising works in the
midst of densely-populated districts. (Hear, hear.)
Reference had been made to the case of Leicester ; but
the evidence iv, that case showed that the deodorising
works were in the open fields. Now in London they could
not be in the open field.';. For the reasons which he
had stated, he trusted the proviso would be struck out.
Mr. KENDALL said it was most desirable the house
should know the position in which it stood. It was
asked to give a guarantee to the extent of 3,000,0001.
But would that sum be sufficient I The referees stated
that instead of 3,000,0001. not less than 6,000,0001.
would be required, and in his opinion it was not un-
likely that the sum required might amount to 9,000,0001.
or to 12,000,000/. Then with respect to the question of
deodorisation, Mr. Cook had stated, with respect to
Leicester, that he could completely deodorise the sewage
of 100,000 persons for 6,0001, and maintain the works
for 1,2001. annually. For the sum of 180,0001. he could
deodorise every portion of the metropolitan sewage; and
carry on the works for 38,0001. a year. Perhaps the
amount might not be exactly correct ; but the opinion
of Mr. Cook was backed by that of other gentlemen who
understood the subject. His opinion was that the subject
was not quarter investigated ; but he believed the bill
would pa-s, as it appeared to be acceptable to the house.
Mr. LOCKE (Honiton) thought that a bill much
more simple in its details than the one before the house
would have answered the purpose. There were many
persons who thought that the interception system was
not the best system that could be adopted, and he might
observe also, in reference to the expenditure, that some
of the engineers and some of the parties examined before
the committee, had coupled with the expenditure works
of which the-house had at present no knowledge. Those
other works, he believed, would be attended with consi-
derable expense, and it was to that he would direct at-
tention. Tne right hon. gentleman the member for Mary-
lebone had told them that this system of deodorisation
was one which was not likely to be effective, and he cited
the evidence of a gentleman on that subject. Now,
although she evidence was to a certain extent true, yet
they had other most important evidence that a plan of
deodorisation might be carried out on the banks of the
Thames without the slightest inconvenience to the inha-
bitants. Not only Mr. Cook, but Mr. Hawkesley, had
stated their decided opinion that a system of deodorisa-
tion might be carried on anywhere on the banks of the
Thames. He begged the house to understand that he
was giving as much his own opinion as the opinions
of other persons who hal been examined before the
committee. He thought if they were to deodorise the
sewage, it would be much better that they should deodo-
rise it before it reached the Thames than after. And he
thought it would be much better if the bill simply gua-
ranteed the repayment of the money to be advanced
without Parliament involving itself in any scheme what-
ever. If it were absolutely necessary that some scheme
should be propounded, he was bound to say that he
agreed with the chairman of the committee that they
had not had sufficient evidence of what, under all the
circumstances, was the best system to adopt,
Mr. HENLEY said the hon. member who had just
sat down said the bill should confine itself simply to find-
ing the money. That was exactly what the bill did. The
Metropolitan Board of Works was left to adopt such
plans as they saw fit, without any indication in the bill
as to what the plan was to be. The right hon. baronet
opposite had expressed a strong opinion that deodorisa-
tion ought not to take place in crowded localities. He
entirely agreed with him, but he thought it would be
absolutely impossible under this bill for that to be done,
because, although it was true that it gave leave to die.
charge the sewage in certain places, and that it must first
be deodorised, yet another clause said that no nuisance
should be created anywhere. The course of this discus-
sion showed how wise it was to say nothing about a
plan in the bill, for no two members had agreed on any
plan. Tree simple question seemed to be this : some three
years ago Parliament decided to entrust to a local body
the power of doing this particular thing. Per some rea-,
son or other, but mainly, he supposed, owing to two
causes, nothing had been done. Various plans had been
before the public, and the noble lord raid that all the
plans of thelast three years had been pretty well thrashed
out. But no two members agreed upon anything. Were
they then to go on till they could agreed upon some plan?
If they did, nothing would ever be done at all The two
reasons which had prevented anything being done had
been these—one was, that the board had not the means
of rasing the money, and the other was, that the Go-
vernment having a veto upon them, of course the right
hon. gentleman who had to exercise that veto could
not exercise upon his own authority, and he got compe-
tent men to give him their opinion, and having corn
potent men on his right hand and on his 1 ft, they gave
competent reasons one against another, and nothing was
done. In the meantime the river became fouler and
fouler, and some fine morning it might create a pesti-
lence. If the board acted upon any one of the schemes,
something would be done towards abating the nuisance,
hut if they waited till they could agree upon a scheme,
they might wait till doomsday. The question had been
raised by the right hon. member for tee University of
Oxford whether the landlords should pay ? Now sewers
rates were not unknown, and in all cases they fell on
the landlords where the landlords had not protected
thernselvee. A good deal of objection had been made as
to the mode in which the Metropolitan Board of Works
was elected, but he had nat heard any metropolitan
member say that the board did not fairly represent the
. metropolis. He thought the case was a simple one. If
. Porliarnent thought the country ought to pay for it then
the Government ought to carry out the work. If, on the
other band, the metropolis ought to pay for it, he
thought it but fair that those a ho paid for it should have
the carrying out cf the work. They had had some expe-
rience of this matter. Government having a veto had
brought things to a dead lock, and with regard to the
drainage of other great towns, he did not think that the
interfercuce of a government department had been at-
tended with happy results. He repeated that any of the
schemes would go far to prevent, if it did not altogether
prevent, the nuisance, and he believed that if this bi'l
passed, it would eet a body to work that would do some
thing.
Mr. R. STEPHENSON said eight years ago he be-
came a member of the Metropolitan Commission of
Sewers, and he then had to commence the study of the
drainage of the metropolis. lie was a:sociated with some
very able men, and although his views had undergone
some modification since that time, essentially they had
remained precisely the same. He w a called on at that
tines to investigate 160 different plans that were sent in
by a number of competitors in compliance with an adver-
tisement of a previous commission. He believed
that every possible variety of scheme affecting the drain-
' age of the metropolis was broached. He spent much
time in investigating the whole of them, and he came to
the conclusion that nothing would eff:ctually answer the
purpose but the intercepting system. Tee right hon.
gentleman the member for Kidderminster had objected
to this system an not being adaptel for the increase of
the population of London to three millions and it-halr.
Now a more inappropriate remark could net by ar.y
poso.l.ty have been made. The intercepting system
divided London as it now stood into a series of z mes.
Each intercepting sewer, therefore, dealt with the z ,no
immediately above it. Any increase of London, there-
fore, would only rsen
ire the construe ion of a new inter-
cepting sewer f an additional z ,ne without at all
affecting that which had been already done towards
the drainage of the metropolis. Indeed the chief recom-
mendation to him of the intercepting system wan that it
was capable of expansion without involving any inter-
ference with the existing drainage. Well, after plans
hall been drawn with great core they were foewarded to
Government, and then ho found that the bands of the
corn mission were ti,d, and as the censtruc'don of the
minor sewers in London was a matter that could bo
carried en with ordinary euperintendenco, the corn-
rei-eion resigned. A new commission was then appointed
comprising many eminent men in his profession. They
investigated the wh. le question and came to the same
conclusion that he had done without having any com-
munication with him whatever, which he thought vvas'a
strong argument in favour of the intercepting system.
What was the reeult ? That commission also found that
Government refused to entertain any application for
money, and the noble lord tic member for Tiverton see'
to them a dictatorial letter requiring them to carry out
the plan f a person who was in hie confidence. That
immediately led to the resignation of the commission,
as they could not ident fy themselvi s with such a scheme.
An objection had been made to the Metropolitan Board of
Works, but he could not understand why. The board
was in possession of all the necessary information, and
there was no (ethic body that was. If Parliament a
pointed another body, that body wool I have to collecpt-
and arrange ali that was colleeted and arranged by the
Board of Works already. There might ba some little
amendment effected in these plans, but he agreed with
the right hon. member for Oxfordshire that they had
seldom seen much good arise from the interference of
Government in these matters. He trusted that the house
would come to a decision iu favour of this bill, unless
they intended to leave the matter where i: wee. But he
should strongly advise the Government to insist upon
the intercepting system being carried out.
Mr. LOWE explained that what he said was that the
plan of the board woe confessedly limited to a population
of two millions and a half.
Sir J. SUELLEY could confirm all that the lion,
member for Whitby had said with r. gard to the labour
which be had bestowed on this subject. lie quite agreed
with him that the intercepting
system the moat
likely to be effective, and that it would be wwaell to begin
with an intercepting sewer of a high level to prevent the
storm waters inundating the lower districts. With re-
gard to deodorisation, La did not deny that Mr. Cook
had given dietetic-, evidenca but they roust rem ember
that Mr. Cock was the chairman f the company whose
objet as to sell the deedori,ed se sage at Leicester,and that they had not succeeded in effecting any sales.
Toe bill provided that if the outfall were at Woolwich,
deoderi-atien should be carries] on half the year ; but if
within the ruetropolitin area, it should be carried
on the
whole year. He thouglit the inhabitauts of Woolwich
might reasonably repiire- the same provision wide re-
gar] to their district at was applied to the metropolis.
Sir G. C. LE WIS said it appeared to him there was
an iiicsneirdency in the principle on which the bill was
tended and the announcement just made by the Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade. Toe right hon. goetleman.
said it was quite open to the Board of Works to adopt
any plan which they might think fit, and that Govern-
ment was not responsible f an particular plan.
Mr. HENLEY o!;sFrved t; at y %%hat he s Wee, that
it was quite open to the board to carry out any plan.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said at a 1 events he understood that
the Government had expressed no opinion in favour of
any one plan, and that it was quite open to the board to
adopt any plan they might think fit. If that were so,
why was the house called upon to guarantee the precise
sum of three millions ? Either the to aril bad fixed upon
some plan, and the Government with the knowledge of
that plan, had fixed upon snree millions, whi they said
was sufficient, or if the board had really not fixed upon
a plan,.it was clear they had no security that three mil-

lions was sufficient, and that they might not be called
upon hereafter for two or three millions more. That
was the only difficulty he had in assenting to the second
reading of this bill.
Mr. J. LOCKE regarded this subject as one of great
importance to the ratepayers of the metropolis. (Hear.)
The Government said they had no plan, but they never-
theless introduced a bill which to his mind seemed to
indicate a plan, inasmuch as it named the points where
the outlets of the sewage ,were to be fixed. But with
regard to the means of transit of the sewage from the
metropolis to those points, the Government said they
were prepared to leave that entirely to the Metropolitan
Board of Works. Now, with regard to the deodorisa-
tion of the sewage, there were different opinions. They
had, for instance, the hon. member for Honiton (br. J.
Locke), whose opinion was in favour of the deodorising
system ; while, on the other band, they had the opinion
of the hon. member for Whitby (Mr. Stephenion), indi-
cating that he was an enemy to the deodorising system.
Mr. STEPHENSON explained that ho was not an
enemy to deodorising, under certain circumstances ; but
there were certain districts of Lendon the sewage of
which could not be conveniently deodorised.
Mr. LOCKE—The hon, member was an advocate of
what he called dividing the metropolis into " zeroes,"
and thus his system might be described as "the sonar
system"—(laughter)—but while he won'd deodorise
some zones, his plan would not deodorise other
zones of the metropolis. It would be his (Mr. Locke's)
duty, inasmuch as they were proceeding in the dark, not
to move that the bill be read a second time that day three
months, but that it be allowed to go into committee,
wherein the house would have an opportunity of im-
proving
it.
Lord EBRINGTON said he was by no means san-
guine of the success of the plan of which the bill was in
favour ; and in his opinion Government would be held
responsible for that plan, let them think or say what they
might to the contrary.
Mr. CLAY said it appeared to him that the bill of her
Majesty's Ministers now before the house, in nominating
the Metropolitan Board of Works to carry out the work,
had made the beet silection. The house bad created
them with certain powers, but restricted them in money,
and should the work not be carried out, his belief was
that it would be because the thing could not possibly be
done. The experiment, however, was worth making,
and in his opinion the Metropolitan Board of Works was
the best body to make it.
Mr. PULLEN agreed in the opinion expressed by
some hon. members, that the Metropolitan B eard of
Works were decidedly the best that could ba appointed
to carry the provisions of the bill out. There were two
plans before the country—one, the plan cf the Metropo-
litan Board of Works, and the other that of the referees.
By the former the sum proposed to carry out the work
was only leooo,ooo/., while that of the referees would,
according to their own acknowledgment and estimate,
amount to 6,000.0001. Looking, then, at the two esti-
mates, he was certainly iu favour of the plan proposed
by the Board of Works.
Lord PALMERSTON hoped the house would agree to
the second reading of the bill. (Hear.) And moreover,
because if the bill were rejected, the house would have
to postpone the power of dealing with the nuisance, and
getting rid, if possible, of its foul effects. (dean) It was
au evil of great magnituels. He spoke not merely of the
existing evil, which arose from the pestilential exhala-
tions from the Thames ; for, although that in itself
was a great mil, yet, in proportion as the population of
the metropolis increased, and in proportion as the
sewage flowing into the Thames increased, in that pro-
portion was the Thames becoming the great sewer of the
metropolis ; and, like the great sewer, it would stink,
and, like a stinking sewer, it would become a great evil.
(Hear) Some men who went pleasuring down the river
to Greenwich said the r wives became sick from the stink
of the Thames, and were unable to eat their dinner ; but
he hoped that loss of appetite was a mief *rtune that
would not befall her M js-ty's Government on Siturday
next, when they would sit down to enjoy the Ministerial
White Bait Dinner at Greenwich. (Laughter.) It had
been said that there was no great amount of disease at
preSent in the metropolis, and, fortunately, there was no
epidemic in London ; but, if the metropolis was wife.-
tunately acted with cholera at the time the stink
emanated from the Thames, he believed that the stench
would have aggravated in the most intense degree any
disaster of that kind. The ill effects of the bad 6rainage
was felt in other places betides the banks of the Thames.
This was especially the case in the neighbourhood of
Hackney.brook, as he had the means of knowing when
tie was in the Home-office, and listened to the recital of
the sufferings and annoyances arising from the stenches
and over flo vvings of the sewage. There was, too, a large
population living in the south, in one part of which there
was no drainage, and no outfa 1 except at low water, and
&ter a great fall of rain the cellars became inundated, and
there was an amount of misery which no gentleman could
have a notion of. Treat required drainage by a great out-
fall, by a tunnel to be carried to a lower part of the
Thames. It must net be imagined that theta was any
remedy for those evils except by intercepting sewers in
tunnels which would carry the drainage from the
metropolis to a lower level. He thought that Bark-
ing Creek and the opposite points were too near, and
it would be found in practice that money laid out
in carrying tunnels to these was, in a certain
degree, thrown away. The Metropolitan Board would
have to come to Parliament and confess that the
plan was defective, and call upon Parliament to assist
them with further money. He agreed to carrying cue
tha work to the further point. Therefore, he thoneht it
very unfortunate that Government should persist in
limiting the point for the outfall of the tunnels at a
point so near as Barking Creek and the opposite side.
Tnere was another point not entering into the arrange,•
meet of the bill, but to which he hoped the attention of
the Metropolitan Board of Works would be successfully
directed—the possib lily of converting to agricultural
purposes as manure that vast amount of :natter dis-
c! argod into the Thames. There could be no doubt that
there was a great loss of fertilising power in matter now
carried out to sea. No process had been discovered by
which the fertilising power could advantageou ly and
profitably be applied to agricultural purposes ; but he
could not avoid entertaining a hope that chemical
science might yet before lone, suggest some in, thod by
which this might be turned' into a source of na ional
wealth, instead of being thrown into the waters of the
German Ocean. He fumed the house would agree to the
second reading of the bill, and he trusted that the Go-
vernment would regard the suggestions thrown out for
modifications. (Gear, bear, and cheers,)
Mr. BUTLER thought it most unfair that a small
portion of the metropolis only should pay towards the
thesethe' °a:rneeilso.a
of
ssoleVtwitilayeg
sewage, as
leldat
dnfondtrot
witi: re hbnyl r:thrh
makingpaaey itsconsidered
o n proportion,sie ofe
r e d
e
metropolitan bill, unjust, and lie hoped the committee
Rtlas being
would have that defect remedied.
The bill was then read a second time and ordered to
be committed on Wednesday.
WAYS AND MEANS—HARBOURS OF
Oa the report of ways E
aF
ght up,
Mr. WILSON said he had given noticeberf his inters
ou
tiou to call the attention of the house to the report of
the committee oa harbours of refuge, and to neove for
an rid cress fir a Royal Commission in accordance there-
with, but he had since been given to understand that
the Gevernrnent had no objection to grant a commis-
sion, and therefore lie was indisposed to take up tho
time of the house with any obsertations.
Sir J. PAKINGTON had no hesitai ion in saying that
a Reryal Commission ought to be appointed to inquire
into the localities for the new barb mon.
Mr. LIDDELL hoped that the order of reference
would be large and full, and that the commission would
not be les rioted in taking the evidence they considered
necessary.

After a f.w worth from Mr. A. SMITH and Mr. DOB=
SON,

Mr. INGIIANI thanked the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty for the readiness with which he had agreed to issue
the cornet ssion. Ile only wished to say, that if the
instructions to the co:nruissiou were limited to the re-
coffirnendatioas of the committee, there was some am-
biguity in the;:e recommendations as to the limits within
which such harbour.) should be constructed, He trusted
the Admiralty would take care to mike the instructions
as clear and precise as possible, so that the commissioners
would be required to point cut the best spot for the bar-
ly3urs in the respective districtp.
Mr. WILSON appealed to hon. onerriben not to pro-
ceed with any dents at present, having, in fact, post-
poned his motion until Thursday next, when they would
have the terms of the motion bef,ife them.
Mr. M•CANN concurred in that view, and had him.
self postponed a motion which he had on the paper.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE was of opinion that the sub-
.

.
pet was one of paramount importance, and that it could
ba dealt with as well that night as upon any future
evening. ThE3 appalling 1 ;es of life and property on our
coast every year was disgraceful to us, when the greater
part could be saved by the outlay of a sum of money not
greater than they wets now proposing to spend upon the
drainage of London. The number of lives annually lost
was 3,000, the property lost upwards of two million.
sterling ; and, from the large increase of our shipping of
late years, the lose must is future increase.
Mr. BENTINCK said this impel tact suljact had been
trifled with too long, and he hope,d that au efficient cr,m-,
mission would be issued, nod the while question tho-
roughly dealt with.
Mr. DUFF suggested that no persoa should be ap-
pointed
on the commission who had served oa any pre-
vious commi,sion.
The subject then dropped.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AND PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said he would take that op.
portunity of impressing upon the Caancellor of the Ex-
chequer the importance of placing the financial state-
men,s on the table at a time when they might be useful,

and nit so late at present.
CLIANCELLOR of the EXOHEQUER said ar-
rangemeuti wet e in progress by which the financial state-
ments would be produced at au earlier periud in future.
(flear, hear.) In answer to other questions, he had to
state that ha t'• cright it probable the Government would
not press the Chinese Passengers 811 this st's ior. Lie
did Lot intend to procaed with the Civil Service Super-
annuation Bill—(hear, hear) —and at this period of the
session it would, ho thought, be inexpedient to proceed
further with the Police Force (Ireland) Bill. (11:ar,
hear.) .

The report was then agreed to.
CORNWALL SUBMARINE MINES DILL.
On the motion that th© house go into cotninittJe on
this bill,

M. tl. SMITH objected to proceeding farther with
thi, bid, which defined rights of the Crown in Mich th.
public had an interest, un it copies of all the docurnenta,
cases, and opi,iions of counsel, submitted to Sir Join,
Pattmn, rind upon which his arbitration WAS foueded
were laid upon the table. He mo'ed to that eff,ct.
_ _

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL gave the history of
the bill, the object of which cas to carry into eff e, the
arbitration of Sir J, Patteson, to whom it had been re-

ferred to ascertain the respective rights of the Crown
and the Duchy of Cornwall to minerals between high
and low water mark, and below low water mark.
After a few words from Mr. Vll YLD the amendment
was negatived, and the house went into committee upon
the bill, the clauses of which were agreed to with amend-
ments.

THE JEWS BILL;
On the motion that the house go into committee on
this bill,

Mr. KNIGEITLEY said he thought that if the Lords
intended to admit Jews to Parliament it would have been
wiser to agree to the bill sent up to them by the Com-
mons than to pass this queer measure of an Irish com-
promise, accompanied by reasons why its provisions
ought not to be acted upon by the house.
Mr. GILPIN characterised the bill as a miserable
subterfuve, and only a little better than nothing at all.
Mr. BENTINCK declared that by the bill a direct
and aggravated insult was offered to the House of Com-
mons and to the Jews themselves. He contended that
the house was hound to include Turks, heretics, and
infidels in the bill.

Mr. SPOONER thought the bill a great disgrace to
the other branch of the Legislature, and that it was an
insult to this house to ask it to agree to a measure every
word of which was reprobated except the object it was
to carry out.

Lord J. RUSSELL, at the request of Mr. SPooxEs,
showed that there was nothing unconstitutional in the
provisions of the bill.

The house divided, when the numbers were—
For going into committee 144
Against it
Majority --104
_. _

The SPEAIER then left the chair, and the house went
into committee, amidst roars Of laughter, on the dis-
covery having been made that Mr. Spooner, by a mis-
take, took the wrong turning in the passages to the
division, and voted in efftct for the admission of the
Jews to Parliament, instead of against it. The hon.
member joined heartily in the laugh.
The house then went into committee upon the bill,
when

Mr. SPOONER moved to add a proviso to the first
clause, " That such resolution be not acted on till the
clment of the Crown be signified to both Houses of
Parliatneut."

The motion was negatived, and this and the other
clauees were agreed to without amendment.
GOVERNMENT OF NEW CALEDONIA. BILL.
The house
_having resolved itself into committee on
this bill,
Mr. GLADSTONE said he presumed this bill bad
been recommitted by the right hon. baronet the Secre-
tary for the Colonies, but not for the purpose of intro-
, ducing any material amendments in it. He would not,
therefore, take up the time of the committee with any
formal motion ; but he begged to submit for the con-
aideration of the committee what he believed to be the
material construction of the bill. it was a matter of
principle, an 4 he, for one, attached very great import-
ance to principle. The frame of the bill constituted a
new Government for Caledonia, and it provided that at
any fature period her Majesty's Government might es-
tablish free institutions in the colony. There appeared,
then, to be two modes of establishing a colony—one of
those was the true, and the other the false one. He
thought the colony ought to be established, not on the
principles that they established their convict colonies,
but as a colony in which the society founding it should
be empowered to at once originate free institutions. He
wished that the Government could be prevailed upon to
embody in the bill that they were about to found a free
colony. He was quite prepared to place responsibility
in the Executive Government. From the bill it would
be supposed that we founded a colony not fit for free.
dom. He regretted the terms in which the bill had been
conceived and framed. Instead of being progressive, it
was rather retrogressive ; and it merely calculated that
a period would arrive when free institutions might be
introduced into Ne v Caledonia.
Mr. LABOUOLIERE agreed in the general principles
stated by Mr. Gladstone as to the establishment and
growth of free institutions in colonies about to be newly
started, and alluded to the manner in which Vancouver's
Hand had grown up. Tue old English constitution
was the best with which they could start ; but there
were peculiar features connected with the C Tony of
New Caledonia, and having reference to the gold
producing countries, to which they should not close their
eyes. With those features staring them in the face, ha
thought it would not have been prudent on the part of
her Majesty's Government to go the length in the first
instance which the right hon. gentleman contended for.
Upon the whole, he thought the Government deserved
credit for the manner in which the bill was framed, and
he should feel inclined to give it support. The third
clause, however, required ssme exelanation. The queen
and C,uncil should not have the power of framing any
coestitution as a permanent constitution without the
consent of Parliament.

Mr. ROEBUCK thought there was some mistake
with regard to the powers of the Crown. Without any
act of Parliament the Crown cool] give any constitution
it pleased. It should be borne in mind that this bill
wool 1 expire in four years, The measure would not aid
the Colonial Secretary in the government of New Cale-
donia. They were spending their time for no purpose.
They ought to have stated in the bill that at the end of
three years representative institutions would be given to
the c)lony. Not having done that they had done no-
thing. It would be much better to allow New Cale-
donia to have tree institutions to-morrow than to leave
it in doubt when they were to be established.
Sir E. B. LITTON regretted that Mr. Gladstone had
not expressed his views on the second reading of the bill. 1 his was not an optional measure, but one rendered im-
perative by the information which the Government had
received. After reooiving the indulgent favour of the
house in all the stages of the bill, they could not go
back and accept the suggestion of the right honour-
able gentleman, which would alter the entire charac-
ter of the measure. In the Governor-General great
responsibility must be placed. It was the desire of
the Government that there should be representative In-
stitutions within the four years, if there were materials
for them. If a separate population were rapidly
formed in that part of the country, the Government
might be advised to constitute an elective chamber.
By an Order in Council the Crown could at once sanction
two elective chambers. He felt the force of the obser-
vations of the hon. and learned gentleman as to the
necessity of a sufficient force to enable the governor tee
preserve order, and at the same time he would say that
it would be desirable to regulate that force in accordance
with the actual wants of the colony. Hs trusted, how-
ever, tuat the bill having so far received the support of
the house, it would now be agreed to, to meet the urgent
nece;sities of the case.

Afer a few words from Mr. ROEBUCK in txplanation,
Clause 1 was agreed to.
Oa clause 2,

Mr. BUET said that by the clause the present Govern-
ment, which was of an arbitrary character, might con-
tinue, without Parliament having the power to inter-
f,re. Re thought the clause should be amended, to
rendrrr it imperative to put an end to the arbitrary
Government at the end of four years.
Mr. BAILLIE said the power of doing se would rest
with the Legislative Assembly.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 8,
Mr. LALOUCUERE objected that the clause gave
this country the power to establish any form of govern.
ment she chose—a power which she did not possess in
any other colony.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the short answer
to the objection was, the whole question would have to
be reconsidered at the natural expiration of the act, and
it would then be absolutely necessary to come to Parlia-
ment again, if the colony in the meantime did not es-
tablish self-governing institutions.
Mr. LABOIJOHERE did not see any necessity for
coming again to the house on the Expiration of the act,
while, in fact, the clause gave the Government the
power of establishing whatever institutions they thought
proper at the end of the four years. Such a course
would be exceedingly inconvenient.
Mr. ROEBUCK did not see the fume of the objec-
tion. The Queen had the power of giving by charter
any constitution she thought proper ; and the moment
that constitution was given, the colony would have the
rower of taxing itself.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the statements of his right
hon. friend and the hon. and learned member for Shef-
fo ld were not inconsistent with each other. The Queen
had the power of giving a eons:Ration by charter, but
the taxing powers of any legislative assembly would de-
pend upon the paople of the colony.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL concurred in the views
expressed by the noble lord on this point.
The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining
causes and the preanalle ; and the house having resumed,
the bill was reported.

CIIELSEA. BRIDGE.
The amendments to this bill were considered, and
Easter and Whit-Monday added to the Sundays when
the people would be allowed to pass over the bridge toll
force.

THE PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
Oa the third reading of this bill,
Mr. CONING HAM gave notice that be would nes
session call attention to the question of vaccination.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brough
in two bills, one to authorise the emboJiment of th
militia, and the other enable her Mejesty to accep
their services abroad.
The Approprlationßill was brought in and read a:first
time.

The houso then adjourne lat half-past two o'clock.

BIRTHS.
LIKE—On the 18th inst., the wife of Colonel Henry
Atwell Lake, C. 8., Aide-do-Camp to the Queen, of
80t.

LYSONS —On the 15th inst., at Molden Lodge, Surrey,
the wife of Colonel D. Lysons, C. 8., of twin sons.
illooN—On the 17th inst., at Fetcham Rectory, Leather-
head, the wife of the Rev. E. Graham Moon, of a
daughter.