The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-06 00:00:00

THE I'SUN,I,%ONDON, TUES DAY EVENING, MARCH 6, 1860.

may bo necessary for giving effect," &c. The fact is we'
have taken those steps. (" No, no ! The bills.") That is
a formal affair; the decision of the house has been arrived
at. In the case of 1787, when the address from which this
is copied was moved,•not a single vote in the committee of
customs had been taked, the mode of levying the duties had
not been altered, and therefore there is a great difference be-
tween the two cases. However, that is a question on which
I will not dwell now. I Ain extremely glad that the noble
lord has taken the course which he has done, and I am sure
he must see its propriety, because it was, I believe, past,
midnight on Eriday when the notice was given. At that
time a great number of gentlemen, including my right hon.
friend the member for Droitw ich had left the house, and
many of them left town on the follow:ng morning. With
regard to the time for the consideration of this address, I
should think Friday would be a more convenient day than
Thursday, as it would interfere with no other arrange-
.ments, and I would therefore suggest to the noble lord that
it would be more acceptable to the house if he would fix the
later day instead of the earlier.
Lord PALMERSTON was understood to say that this
would lead to,inconvenience in case of the adjournment of
the debate.
Mr. HORSMAN called the attention of the house to the
fact that during the present session they had given to the
Government facilities for conducting business such as had
been asked by no Government before. (Hear, hear.) Since
the night when the I 'hancellor of the Exchequer introduced
his budget the Government had been allowed to appropriate
every notice day for the discussion of their financial resolu-
tions. No such' indulgence was given to Sir R. Peel in 1842
or 1845, nor was it asked by the present Chancellor in 1853,
although on all those occasions the fiscal changes and the
unsettlement of trade were greater than they had been on
the present occasion. More than this, the Government, to
facilitate the passing of the Customs' duties, had been al-
lowed to appropriate Thursday for the introduction of the
Reform Bill. All this had been cheerfully conceded ; beet,
he thought the house ought to put a limit upon these con-
cessions —(hear, hear)—which had in no previous session.
been demanded by any Government. There had, of course,
been occasions on which there had been adjourned debates
upon the budget which had, to snit the general conve-
nience, taken precedence of notices of motion ; but to the
present Government had been readily and cheerfully con-
ceded that which had never been asked before. He, there-
fore, submitted that the Government ought not to press the
house too far, and that, instead of asking for next Thurs-
day evening, they ought to fix the consideration of this
address for Friday.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I cannot allow this conversation
to close without expressing my satisfaction that the Govern-
ment and the hon. gentleman epposite have thought it right
to take the course which they have done, and my earnest
hope that the extraordinary notice given on Friday night
will not be drawn into a precedent, because I must say that
since I have had the honour of a seat in this house I can
remember no instance in which the conduct of the Govern-
ment had so much the appearance of an intention to take
the house by surprise—(hear, hear)—and, if possible, to
prevent or strangle the discussion upon a question of great
interest and importance, as the notice which was given by
the hon. member for Middlesex between 12 and 1 o'clock on
Saturday morning. In my opinion, the course which was
then taken by the Government and by the hon. member on
their behalf was not only most unusual, but also most dis-
courteous to the house—( ' Oh, oh," and hear, hear)—and
am very glad that the Government have seen fit to change
their course. I entirely concur with my right hon. friend
the member for Stroud in what he has said as to the prac-
flee of occupying Thursday nights with Government busi-
ness; and I hope that the Government will not persevere
in their intention to bring on this motion on Thursday even-
ing. The noble viscount has intimated across the table
that the reason for taking that course is the possibility of
the debate being adjourned. In answer to that, I will say
that the Government must take the chance which all Govern-
ments have on all occasions taken when bringing forward
bills on Government nights ; and, therefore, hope that the
house will not sanction this proposal. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I think
the right hon. baronet, seeing there is no difference of opin-
ion as to the course which ought to be pursued, might have
abstained from making the deliberate charge which he has
thOught proper to prefer against the Government of endea-
vouring to stifle discussion upon the commercial treaty with
France. (Hear, hear.) 1 do not think the Government have
shown any desire to stifle' discussion. (Hear, hear.) We
are perfectly satisfied by the results of the discussion which
has taken place, and perhape it is some dissatisfaction with
those results which has induced the right hon. baronet to
make his unnecessary charge. (Hear, hear. But, however,
that may be, 7 think my right hon. friend the member for
Stroud is labouring under a misapprehension with respect
both to principle and to fact. In the first place, with re-
gard to the acceleration of public business, I mrst, always!
whether in or out of office, protest against the rssumption
that it is a favour to the Government to allow them to pro-
, ceed with their measures on days that do not properly be-
long to them. It is not at all for the canvenience of the
Government that they should be perrritted to take a larger
share than usual of the time of the house. My right hon.
friend must know that a rapid rate of proceeding brings an
additional and a very inconvenient amount of labour upon
the:Government. It is a regard to the general interests
of the country and to the 'el" definite and press-
ing interests of the whole commercial and tra-ling,
classes that makes us anxious to an ive at an early conclusion
on the budget. (Hear.) But" I think likewise my right
hon. friend is wrong in point of fact. lam not prepered to
quote chapter and verse of the precedents at the present
moment, but, unless toy recollection greatly deceives me,
we did, upon many nights in 1842, proc2cd with the tariff
when the Government had not regr ler precedence. Un-
doubtedly that we s not the only instance, for under all
Governmente, *hen. the case has appeared to La of suffi-
cient urgency to justify it, a similar demand has been made
and acceded to by the horse. Of course that is a question
entirely in the discretion of the house ; and when-
ever the Government perceives the existence of a
general ad verse disposition on the pal t of the
house it will at once withdraw such a demand. But I think
my noble friend has given on this occasion one vel jr special
reason why it is eminently for the convenience of all parties
that we should go or, as proposed on Thursday. If there is
to be an adjourned debate we shall be able to carry it on
after an interval of only a few hor-s, instead of one of three
clays; and those gentlemen who may be detained in London
will be liberat- 3at a, much earlier period. (A laugh.) But
it so happens that if any one will take the trouble to turn to
the notices which stand for Thursday he will see that it is a
day eminently convenient for the motion of the hon. mem-
ber for Middlesex to be made. We are not endeavouring to
bi ing Lrviard an order upon a notice night. The hon. mem-
ber for Middlesex !lives notice of a motion, and proposes to
place it on the paper for Thursday. It may s: Ind very well
upon its own merits as a notice which mill only compete
with other notices, and which I! Ii not displace any without
the fell consent of the movers. It seen- s to be forgotten that
the Government have not, after all, received the favor- aof
which we have heard so much. All we have been enabled to
do by the aid and kindnc as of many hon. members has been
to oecupy the later poraons of two or three evenings which
otherwise might not have been occupied at all. On Thursday
night, it is true, my noble friend the Secrete!' for Foreign
Affairs was permitted to bring forward a vele, important
subject at an early hour; but on Tuesday night the hon.
member for Bridgewater, in the exercise of his discretion,
called the attention of the house to a question of which he
had given notice, and although we were allowed to occupy
the later portion of the evening no inconvenience was expe-
rienced by any one. It so happ ns, however, as I have al-
ready said, that the notices for Thursday next are not very
numerous, and I believe they will be found to be either
such as are not likely to lead to prolonged discussions, from
the nature of the subjects, or ouch as cannot lead to pro-
longed discussion because they aro agreed to. The motion
relating to dockyards has been agreed to, and the motion
on our relations with the Neapolitan Government is, I un-
derstand, one that cannot be conveniently discussed in de-
tail in the-present state of affairs and the present state of
the house as to information. I must say, therefore, it would
be little better than a waste of time if we were not to take
the convenient opportunity of proceeding es :th the impor-
tant motion of my hon. friend the member for Midellesex on
Thursday, with the view of closing the discussion on Friday
in case the house should wish for an adjourned debate. But
that rests in the discretion of the house, only we are not
disposed to take the opinion of two or three members for tho
general wish of the house, as is sometimes done. My belief
is, that the general inclination of the house, as far as we are
able tee gather it, is in conformity with the notice given by
the hon. member for Middlesex—viz., that he should pro-
ceed with his motion on Thursday. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. S. ,FITZGERALD reminded the house that the
Government had done no more than accede to the sugges-
tion of the hon. member for Sunderland, that the motion
for an address on the subject of the French treaty should
be postponed for a day or two. It seemed to him, however,
that the question which had been raised by the hon. member
for Bridgewater was one of still greater importance. It was
not a question whether on Thursday or Friday the house
should signify its assent to or disapproval of a commercial
treaty, or whether that discussion should be deferred till
another occasion. Neither was it a question whether the
house should express its opinion on the contemplated an-
•nexation of Savoy and Nice to France. The question was
whether the house should embrace the present (pportunity,
.when /natters seriously affecting the relations of this coun-
try and the whole of Europe with France ware before 'the
public, of signifying its assent to a treaty, by which, in the .
words of the noble lord at the head of the Foreign-office,
,our relations with France were to be rendered closer and
ni,,,re intimate. (Hear, hoar.) The hon. member for
Brid,:ewater had well pointed out that the question
raised '
by him in his speech was of far greater impor-
tanco fi:an the mere annexation of a small portion of
territory. it only affectsd the independence and security
c'f Switzerlawl, but, as the hon. baronet the member
far Tainworth
had stated, in forcible language, it
had n. very important bearing upon the relations of France
with OermallY•
Tfear,
hear.) It had also an important
bearinv upon the relations of France with Italy, where in
consege,,ence of the proposed annexation France might ex-
ercise es el influence and power . far more formidable than had
at any t ime been exercised by Austria.
(Hear,
the quell tion was one of still greater importance
hear.) But

which might possibly see in the project of annexation said
to be entertained by the Emperor of the French a key to
the claims and the future policy of France. There were
passages in the speech of the Emperor eminently calculated
to raise the suspicions and misgivings of Europe. His leta-
jesty spoke, for example, of what he called the "natural
limits" of France. (Hear, hear.) The house would see,
therefore, that the question was one of the greatest Euro-
pean importance, and one in which this country was deeply
interested. What was the position of Europe at the pre-
sent moment ? There was not a single country in Europe
that did not regard the policy of the extraordinary man
who now wielded the destinies of France with anxiety and
alarm. (Hear.) There was not a covntry in Europe the
statesmen of which did not look to France with something
like fear. Yet there was not a country in Europe that was
prepared to take the initiative in such a matter. All the
nations of Europe looked to Entiand, where there was a
free Parliament, a free press, a free elpression of public
opinion. (Hear.) They relied upon us to take the initia-
tive, and he believed that if we did so they would follow.
What, however, was the position in which the Government
wished to place this country ? Instead of using language, not
such as the noble lord at the head of the Foreign-office had
used, but language recording our earnest, emphatic, and
unflinching protest against the annexation of Savoy and
Nice, the Government proposed that, passing by the dis-
cussion to which the Foreign Minister had invited the
house, Parliament should take into consideration the clauses
of a commercial treaty with France at the very moment
when the policy of France was creating distrust and alarm
throughout Europe. (Hear, hear.) On Friday night the
noble lord opposite declared that the question of the annexa-
tion of Savoy and Nice was one for the consideration, not
of the Crown or of the Government, but of the people of
England and the House of Commons, and yet he was now
asking the house to parade itself before Europe in the act of
drawing closer the bonds of alliance with France, as if
there was an identity of policy and of interests between the
two countries. (Hear, hear.) The present was not the
time for such language as the Foreign Minister had held.
He granted that the noble lord, as appeared from the re-
cently published correspondence, had remonstrated against
the course pursued by France and against the project said
to be entertained by the Emperor. But we wanted more
than the mere language of remonstrance. We did
not want the noble lord to write to Turin that the sur-
render of the cradle of his illustrious family would be " a
blot on the escutcheon" of the King of Sardinia. That was
mere rhetoric, rather than the earnest and vigorous protest
which we desired. (Hear, hear.) We were bound by the
faith of solemn treaties. (Hear, hear.) We had treaties
with Austria, with Prussia, and with Russia, and what the
country wanted to see from the Powers thus united was a
solemn protest against a project which, he feared, was not
only entertained, but in part accomplished, and which he
believed to be dangerous alike to the interests and the
tranquillity of Europe. (Cheers.) Under these circum-
stances he would suggest to the noble lord that the consi-
deration of the clauses of the commercial treaty should not
take place until the house had the opportunity of clearly
and decidedly expressing an opinion as to this annexation
of Savoy and Nice. (Hear, hear.) He did not doubt that
the opportunity would be found, either by the action of
some independent member, or by some proposition on
the part of the Government; to take the papers
into consideration; and then, on Monday next, if the noble
lord proceeded to the consideration of the clauses of
the commercial treaty, a course would be adopted by which
the public service would be greatly benefit. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT thought he might assume that the language
of the hon. gentleman was the language of the right hon.
member for Buckinghamshire and of Lord Derby, who, in
another place, As the leader of the party to which the hon.
gentleman belonged. (Hear, and a laugh.) The hon. gen-
tleman had not taken a very active part in the discussions
of the house until within the last 12 months, when, from
the official position in which he was placed, it was necessary
for him to do so, and it must be admitted that the hon. gen-
tleman when in office conducted the business of his depart-
ment, as far as that house was concerned, in a satisfactory
manner. (Hear, hear.) He therefore the more regretted to
be obliged to say that he observed that a very remarkable
change had taken place since the hon. gentleman quitted
office; and he did not know that he had heard for a long
time a speech in that house wb:ch had given him more
astonishment and pain than that which the hon. gentleman
had just delivered. He did not ask the hon. gentlemen to
please him la the speeches which the hon. gentleman made
and he certair ly in his speeches did not t.y to please hon.
gentlemen opposite—(a laugh) ; but he did ask that when
hon. gentlemen addressed the house they should well con-
sider the gartity of the question, and endeavour, as far as
other countries were c .ncerned, not to import into the dis-
cussion any unnecessa-i irritation. From what had been
observable du: :ng the last fol .right or three weeks, it was
quite obvious that the commercial treaty was very unplea-
sant to hon. gentlemen opposite. (Hear, and oh, oh.) There
were-many reasons why it should be so, some of which they
were not likely to admit, and which it was not necessary for
him to state; but he asked whether it was a manly course
to modeavov^, when the commercial treaty was on the point
of being concluded by the ratification of the house, and when
throughout the covntry there was but one voice with re-
spect to it —(cries of " Oh," and " Hear, hear")—and when
that house had r"cady shows itself most urnolstakeably
in its favour—was it 1-early, he asked, to associate the
treatment of that particuler question, end of the Govern-
ment in respect to it, with another question which might
or might not be importsnt, but which was liable to create
initaiion here and elsewhere ? (Hear.) The hon. member
for Bridgewater and many other hon. members had strong
feelings on this question of Savoy. What course did they
propose to take ? Did they propose to take out of the hands
of the Crown or of the Government any management or
control of the matter ? If they believed that there was any-
thing in the papers not creditable to the noble lord who had
the management of the foreign affairs of the country or to
the honour of the Crown of England, could they not pro-
pose a motion R ith respect to those papers on any night in
this or next week to the effect that the conduct of the Go-
vernment was not creditable, and that the interests of the
country heti not been duly regarded? Then the matter
would be fairly discussed and battled out, and if the hon.
gentlemen opposite could carry a vote of censure, then the
great object of their ambition would be attained; the Go-
vernment would be turned.out, and hon. gentlemen opposite
wovld sit on the Ministerial benches, and when they did
they would, be presumed, from the force of circumstances,
carry out precisely the same policy. (Cheers.) There were,
not a few persons in this country who regretted the course
taken by the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire on
this question, for no doubt that right hon. gentleman
prompted the virtuous indignation of the hon. member for
Horsham. That course was one not void of some consider-
able peril. He had seen the course followed by the party
opposite in 1853 and 1854. There was not an insinuation
of any kind which was not resorted to at that time with the
view of damaging Lord Aberdeenis Government, and Lord
Aberdeen especially, though such a course might occasion
war, and did, no doubt, much to make the unfortunate war
that ensued inevitable. (Oh, oh !). He did not ask hon.
gentlemen opposite to agree with him; he was only telling
them what a great number of people believed, and the opi-
nion was growing stronger every day that there were per-
sons occupying high positions before the public who would
rather see a great alienation from France—even though it
might lead to the terrific consequences of another war—than
a growing friendship between England and France, which
was likely to result from the commercial treaty. (Oh, oh !
and Hear, hear I) He agreed with the right hon. member
for Buckinghamshire verrmuch in this, that Government
could not very well be carried on in this country with-
out something that assumed the character of party, but still
he had no great affection for party fights. At any rate,
there were many subjects in the course of a session on
which party fights might be taken, but in the name of all
that was sensible, all that was humane and just to man-
kind, let them banish from their party discussions ques-
tions of irritation like that raised to-night—questions
which grew by this sort of discussion, and, sometimes in
a very short time, till they got beyond the control of
those who first raised them. (Cheers.) If they could
conceive themselves for a moment to be sitting in
France, instead of in England, and hearing this kind of
discussion—if they could suppose England and France to
change places on the question of Savoy, and England to
desire annexation, - could not hon. gentlemen then perceive
that the sort of tone in which the matter was taken up, and
the sort of menace which the hon. gentleman offered, was
precisely the kind of thing which made—if such a thing
were possible—war absolutely inevitable ? The hon. gen-
tleman proposed, in effect, that the house should not pro-
ceed with the commercialtrea+y until the question of Savoy
should be settled. (Cheers and counter cheers.) Did he
misunderstand the hon. gentleman ? [Mr. S. Fitzgerald
intimated that he had not said so.) Then he retracted the
statement; but he was quite sure that the tone of the hon.
gentleman's observations led to that conclusion. (Cheers )
Besides, he should ask, what was the object of tying the two
things up together, unless one was to be made dependent
on the other? (Hear.) He ventured to say that no words
that could be put into a resolution would more decidedly
cause a rupture between France and England than words
declaring that the house would not consider the commercial
treaty until the question of the annexation of Savoy was
settled. (Hear, hear.) Now, he was not going to discuss
that question; but a great deal might be said for it on the
part of France, and against it on the part of England. It
appeared to him one of those questions which had better
not be stirred, but which, being stirred, concerned the peo-
ple of France, of Sardinia, and of Savoy much snore than
the people of England. As a matter of material interest it
did not concern England at all, but only as a matter of sen-
timent, as all were desirous here that nobody should destroy
he old landmarks of Europe. It was impossible, hos.; ever,

for any person in the position of the government of a great
country to have stated his case, his wishes and intentions,
in more fair and open language than that read by the hon.
member for Bridgewater. The hon. member, indeed, ad-
mitted that if the words he read were the only words in the
matter he would take the same view of them ; but those
were the only words which referred to the action of the
Emperor, the other words referring solely to the Emperor's
wishes and rights. If, however, any hon. gentleman felt
aggrieved on the subject, let him bring forward'a specific
resolution, and then the noble lord the member for London
would be enabled
-r-dProl4 Uit3 course ou this question; but

he imploil 301 the house not to let it appear that it preferred
a party e m barrassment—a party victory if it might be—or
the If breaking up the friendly relations between this
Id France, to the acceptance of that great treaty,
on which t 1 'le people of England believed their future com-
counpte:
mercial lute, "eats t') a very considerable extent depended.
(Hear.) He `tad 'not risen to defend the Government, but
when a question c f tlr:s sort was made a ground of attack
from night to nir sht, he believed he placed !these attacks
imperilling peace with France, and therefore with Europe,
on the real grour 41 when he stated that they were made for
a party object, for ,a 'hich a great party ought to be ashamed.
(Cheers.)

Mr. LIDDELL said the hon. gentlemen on his side of
the house were not
.prepared to regard the annexation of
Savoy with a pusillanimous indifference. (Hear, hear.) It
was very convenient fi:lr the hon. member (Mr. Bright) to
evade the main point of this question, but the fact was
that England stood pledg vd to maintain the independence
of Switzerland, and that in ..dependence was seriously endan-
gered by the proposed anne nation. (Hear, hear.) With re-
spect to the treaty, he hopeul the hon. member for Sunder-
land (Mr. Lindsay) would nOt accept the courteous offer of
the noble Premier. The hon. member had long since given
notice of an amendment upon the third article of the treaty ;
and if the noble lord's proposal were accepted, the House
of Commons might find itself in the position of the man
who locked the stable door when. the steed was gone.
(Hear, and a laugh.) They wished to urge the Government
to press upon France the impolicy of' continuing those un-
just restrictions in favour of French shipping provided for
in the third article ; but their chances of success would be
very much lessened if the amendment were deferred as the
noble lord desired. (Hear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE—The hon. member (Mr. Bright) has
imputed to gentlemen on this side of the House that for a
party object they are desirous of catching at this question of
Savoy in order to expel the Ministry from their places.
Now, I think he will see upon reflection that that imputa-
tion is not one which he ought to have made. (Hear, hear.)
Has this difficulty been created by any act of those around
me ? By no means. The person who jeopardises the peace
of Europe is he who does net respect the faith of treaties—
who says thatgeographically he is entitled to one country, and
that logically he is entitled to another. (Hear.) That is
the argument in reference to Savoy and Nice. Does any
imputation rest on the Foreign Secretary ? No. I have
only looked into these despatches; but as far as I have read
them I think that they reflect honour upon the noble lord,
and that he has•asserted the interests of peace, the interests
of his country, and the interests of Europe. (Cheers.)
But our object is, in accordance with the noble
lord's own speech the other evening, to strengthen the
hands of the Ministry by expressing clearly and distinctly
the opinion of Parliament, not as the hon. member (Mr.
Bright) supposes, upon the internal affairs of France, but
upon an intended encroachment by one Power on the terri-
tories of another country, guaranteed to that other country
by the faith of treaties. (Hear, hear.) The effect of such
an expression of opinion by Parliament, as I ,believe, will
be not to create war, but to prevent it ; and the hon. gen-
tleman wholly mistook what my hon. friend said, because
when he expressed a hope that Parliament would protest
against annexation, the hon. gentleman should recollect
that a protest is not a war, but a substitute for war. (Hear,
hear.) For example, when the French army marched into
Switzerland Lord Malmesbury protested, but we did not go
to war. And I venture to say that if a distinct and manly
protest be made by England and the other great Powers of
Europe against this attempt to violate the treaties which
guarantee the peace of Europe, that protest will be attended
with better results than even the manful despatches of the
Foreign Secretary. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member (Mr.
Bright) was therefore rash in his imputation upon my hon.
friend and the gentlemen near me, who are desirous to
maintain peace, but at the same time desire to preserve
the- faith of treaties and the honour of their country.
(Cheers.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE—I will not attempt to impugn the
motives of the hon. member (Mr. S. Fitzgerald). His mo-
tives may be pure and honourable, but I do take upon myself
to question the discretion of his speech. (Hear.) When an
hon. gentleman who has occupied the position of Under
Secretary for Foreign Affairs makes such a speech respect-
ing the Emperor of the French, I must say that I think it
highly indiscreet and very much to be deprecated. (Hear.)
What must be the effec:-, produced on the highly inflammatory
susceptibilities of the French people when they hear of such
observations made, amid the cheers of his party, by a gen-
tleman who has held so high a position ? I do not believe
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) inspired him with
that speech, for the right hon. gentleman is far too sensible
of the value of the French alliance ; and the right lion.
gentlemea who has just spoken also sees so fully the indis-
cretion of the speech that he has ende tvoured to explain it
away to the satisfaction of this house and of our neighbours
across the water. (A laugh.) But if we are every night
to be making this an opportunity for discussing the affairs
of the French Government and of Sardinia, what is to come
of it ? (Hear, hear.) Are we to lay hold of this commer-
cial treaty, which is meant to be one of amity, and turn it
instead into a source of war ? (Hear, hear.) By the course
you are pursuing I firmly believe that you are laying the
foundations of enmity between the two countries-. (Cheers.)
As to the policy of annexation, I don't agree with the views
of the hon. member (Mr. Bright). I think he made that
speech under some momentaryirritation, and I am sure that
after consideration has led him to repent of many of those
sentiments. (A. laugh,) If, however, the question may
be regarded from another point of view, let us, when the
proper time arrives for doing so, give it a calm, candid,
and open discussion; but do not let us, night after night,
upon the mere withdrawal of a motion, utter such irritat-
ing sentiments. (Cheers.) I heard with great pleasure
he speech made the other night by the hon. baronet (Sir
R. Peel). It was a speech distinguished by great eloquence,
and I trust that we shall often hear the hon. baronet again,

but I also hope that to eloquence he will join discretion, and

will not on every possible occasion make Savoy the staple
of debate in this house. (Hear.) I have confidence in
the noble lord the Foreign Secretary. From the re-
marks of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Whiteside) it
would seem that we all agree that the noble lord is
conducting these very difficult affairs with judgment
and moderation. Let us, then, assist him in the best
way we are able—namely, by so debating the subject in
this house as not to embarrass him, but to strengthen his
Lands in negotiating. (Hear, hear.) Without impugning
the motives of hon. gentlemen epposite, I ask the House
not to be led away by any anti-Gallican feeling, and not to
mix up this Savoy question with the commercial treaty,
which he have a fair prospect of debating on Thursday
evening. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. ROE BUCK.—Not being of any party whatever—
(laughter)—l think I may reply to the question, why we
mix up the two subjects of the commercial treaty and
Savoy. For the treaty of commerce no man is more
anxious than I am ; but at the same time I have my own
opinion about the annexation of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) I
will tell the hon. gentleman, then, why we connect the two.
With the internal affairs of France we have nothing to do.
The French place whom they please at the head of their
Government. They present him to the world, and with
him we negotiate. It is, therefore, the duty of England to
negotiate with the present Emperor of the French. We do
not ask how he came to the throne. , We do not ask what is
his character. We do not, when negotiating with him ex-
press what we think of the man. All these questions must
enter into our minds; but we negotiate with him candidly,
freely, honestly, though we have our own opinion as to the
_ _

result of that negotiation. Now being, as I said, of no party,
; and not being a Government official, I think it my duty on
the present occasion, simply as a representative of the people
of England to state what I accept as the result of the conemer-
eiAl treaty, supposing it had passed. With the people of
France I have the moat earnest desire to maintain the most
friendly relations. I believe it is for the happiness of mankind
that these two great nations shouldbe upon relations of amity.
(Hear, hear. As the French nation has chosen its governor,
with him I am quite prepared to deal, but I cannot help form-
ing my own conclusion as to the result of this negotiation.
The result of this negotiation will, I believe, very much de-
pend upon the character of the man with whom we have to deal.
Now, what does that man do? Upon this occasion I am not
simply to consider what the hon. member for Birmingham
calls the danger of the question. (Hear, hear.) I have
to consider the honour of England. (Cheers.) I say that
if at this time we did not speak our minds we should be
truckling to the Emperor of the French. (Cheers.) We
should not be the England which I believe we are. (Con-
tinued cheers.) I say that this man who is now entering
into friendly relatians with us is breaking all the treaties we
have made; and is casting dishonour upon England by snak-
ing it appear that we are his friends, while he is doing a dis-
graceful and dishonourable act. (Hear, hear, and Oh.) I
do not mince my language. I don't fear that man, but I
have a fear lest England be thought to truckle to him:
(Hear, hear.) What is he doing ? lie invites ns to enter
into friendly intercourse. To that invitation I willingly
accede. I think he has done boldly by so doing. I think
he has acted doubly boldly, wh.n, having quarrelled with his
priests, he ventures to quarrel with his Prohibitionists at
the same time. But he has done a bolder act. At the same
time that he invites England to be his friend he seeks to
break the treaties which England has made. He talks of
acquiring the versants des Alpes. If I understand what
that means he will go still further. (Hear, hear.) The
man who talks of geographical reasons for wishing to ap•
proach the Alps may for the same reasons desire to approach
the Rhine. (Cheers) And so, if we now stand by with
" bated breath" while he approaches the Alps, we shall by
and by see hint acquire the Rhenish provinces of Prussia.
and crush Belgium in his grasp. (Cheers.) What shall
we do then ? We shall be driven to do that which we ought
to do now, and proclaim boldly that we think it would be
dishonourable to do that which he is about to do. I do
not ask for war—(hear, hear, and a laugh) ;—I know there
is pugnacity at the bottom of all the hen. member for Bir-
mingham does. (Laughter.) When I say Ido not wish to
fight ho laughs at me. (Renewed laughter.) But, sir, there
is something in the grave and solemn declaration of a great
people like England—(hear, hear)—even with the Emperor
of the French. (Hear, hear.) I have known the time when
a declaration of this house stopped him short in his career.
I recollect the time when this house was solicited to alter
the legislation of England to please him. This house re-
fused to consent to 'that. (Hear, hear.) We stopped him
short in his career then and what has been his Course since

then ? During the Italian war and after it the Emperor of
the French did all he could to make friends with the despots
of Europe, and all he could to throw off the English alliance.
(Hear, hear, and oh l) Why do I say that ? I take the ex-
pression of opinion in the press of France to be the expres-
sion of the Emperor's opinions. (Hear, hear.) Having felled
to win the friendship of the despots of Europe, he fell back
upon his old ally, and then he silenced by one blow the press
of France. (Oh, and cheers.) Is that not true ? (Hear.)
Did he not issus his fiat, and did not all the insolence and
all the impertinence against England at once cease ? (Oh,
and cheers.) I have faith in the English House of Com-
mons, although some may be base enough to truckle to an
Emperor—(hear, hear)—and I am sure this House of Com-
mons will maintain the character, the dignity, and the hon-
our of England. (Cheers.) To ge back to what I was say-
ing :—the -Emperor of the French turned round, and again
cultivated the friendship of his old ally. We were sworn
friends again, but I can't forget what that phase of that
man's life disclosed. (" Question I" and cheers.) You may
not like what I say, but I am sure it is the question for us
to consider. I say, what are we to do ? Are we at once,
and without consideration, to accede to this treaty? I am
most anxious at once to close with this treaty of commerce
if we can. (Hear.) But I would not close with it in such a
way as to appear to sanction the proceedings of the Emperor
of the French in the annexation of Savoy. (Hear.) There-
fore, I say the consideration of this question ought to be de-
ferred until the house has had an opportunity of declaring
its opinion as to the annexation of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) I
am quite sure a large majority of the house would at once
adopt the languagd of the noble lord the member for Lon-
don, and declare itself hostile to that annexation. And here
I must say, if the noble lord will permit me, that I think
the honour of England is quite safe in his hands—that
his language has been in accordance with the views of
the people, and that nothing could be better than the man-
ner in which he has declared his honest feelings upon this
matter. (Hear, hear.) I call upon the House of Commons
to, say what the noble lord has said, and to declare its opi-
nion upon this matter before we say that we are willing
to enter into a treaty of commerce between the two
nations. I only ask the house to do that, and that
when it has declared the annexation of Savoy to be
against the honour and dignity of England to say to
France, " If you will enter into negotiations, we wish
to have peace and content between the two countries, and
we will even sacrifice our feelings to gain that end, (near,
hear.)
Mr. CONINGHAM was not at all disposed to truckle to
the Emperor of the French, but felt bound to protest against
the use of such language as they had just listened to as ap-
plied to the ruler of a friendly nation. (Hear.) He knew
that the language applied in that house to the Emperor was
in France considered to be the expression of the sentiments
of that house towards the French nation. (Hear, heer.)
Nothing could be more injurious to the interests of both
nations, more injurious to the interests of cis aization.
(Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen opposite professed now great
sympathy for Savoy, but when Poland was divided, when
Cracow was absorbed, when the Russians marched into
Hungary, he did not remember there were any protests on
the part of the great Conservativeparty. (Hear, hear.) The
annexation of Savoy was a question in which England had
an interest, but if the districts contiguous to Switzerland
were to be given to that republic he thought that arrange-
ment would much modify the views which would otherwise
be entertained of the proposed transaction.
Lord J. RUSSELL.—If any hon. gentleman in this
hotise thought it necessary to propose to _consider the whole
question of Savoy, to find fault with the mode in which that
question has been treated by her Majesty's Government,
or to take the matter entirely out of the harms of the pre-
sent Government, that would be a useful and intelligible
course. (Hear, hear.) It might be that we had spoken too
tamely upon the subject, that men of higher abilities and
more animated spirit might be able to deter the Govern-
ment of France from proceeding in any way with the an-
nexation of Savoy. Those who could succeed in persuading
the house to adopt that view might take the place of those
who have hitherto conducted the negotiations and proceed
to put their views in practice. But there is one course which
is neither consistent with constitutional proceedings in. this
house, nor consistent with the ordinary confidence reposed
in the Government— (hear, hear)—and which, above all, is
not consistent with the maintenance of amicable feelings
between this country and France. (Hear.) That course
is the renewal day after day of irritating discussions—
(cheers)—putting forward particular points and incidents,
asking for no decisive vote, proposing no definite resolution
—(cheers)—but always pointing out the person whom the
French by immense majorities have chosen to rule over
them as a ruler whom we must distrust, against whom we
ought to be perpetually prepared. That course must tend
to alienate the two countries, and to bring about a total
rupture of amicable relations. (Hear, hear.) Now, lam
sorry to say that that is a course which some gentlemen
think it convenient to take, and I must on this occasion
ask them really to come to some definite resolution as to
what they themselves propose by their speeches on this
question. (Cheers.). What has happened is this,—l must
again state it,--It appears that when there was a discus-
sion between France and Sardinia—when there was a
measure of concert arranged betwen them with respect to
the defence of Sardinia against Austria—some question
was raised, er some conversation passed, on the subject
of annexing Savoy to France. The war began ; the war
ended with the annexation of Lombardy to Sardinia, and
'i with no further conquest on the part of France. It was
understood that, according to thepreliminary treaty of Vil-
lafranca and the subsequent treaty of Zurich, the Grand
Dukes of Tuscany and Modena were to return to their do-
minions that the Popo was again tohave possession of the
Romagna; and that Lombardy alone was to be the prize of
the King of Sardinia. The Emperor of France was the
man who promoted that arrangement, and did all he could
to bring it to a successful result; and it was fully under-
stood that in that case there would be Ito question of the
annexation of Savoy. Well, that arrangement did not please
the Italian people; the Emperor of France said he would
not use force to coerce their inclinations ; and those incli-
nations were evidently in favour of their living under the
rule of the King of Sardinia. The Emperor of France said,
when it was clear that such would be the probable result,
it was desirable for the security of France that she should
have the side of the Alps that lay towards France and that
she should have her frontier strengthened. On that ques-
tion her Majesty's Government differed with the Emperor
of France ; but I must say I never for a moment concealed
our opinions uponit from the Emperorof France. (Cheers.)
I was not wanting in telling him, frankly and plainly,
what our opinions were of that annexation, and ;hat were
the consequences which might follow in Europe from care
Tying it into practical effect. But other Powers have to
take their part. The Emperor of the French took
his part so far that he declared to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, both through his Ambassador and through his
Minister fur Foreign Affairs, that he would not proceed to
that annexation without consulting the groat powers of Eu-
rope. It might be feared that by a sudden military occupa-
tion he might seize the capital of Savoy and the passes of
the Alps; but he has declared in the face of all Europe that
he will not so proceed. (Hear.) Those other powers to which
he has referred have to be consulted. We have told him
frankly our sentiments on the subject, and I do not know
that we can say more. But the question remains still to be
decided in what way the other powers will be consulted.
Her Majesty's Government have spoken out on the subject
as has also the British Parliament ; and the British public
and I may say all Europe, will soon know the manner in
which we have spoken. But the other Powers have not yet
spoken ; I cannot presume to say what the opinion of those
Powers will be on the subject in question; but is it at such
a moment, let me ask, and on such a subject, thatthe House
of Commons will consent, day after day, to listen to vague
discussions founded on no definite resolution ? (Cheers.)
is my persuasion—l may be totally mistaken on that point,
because other circumstances may occur to disappoint any
such prophecy—but my persuasion is that if the language
of disapproval is held in Berlin, is held in Vienna, and held
in St. Petersburg, that this project of annexation will not
be persevered in. (Loud cheers.) I have said we don't as
yet know in what language those great Powers will express
themselves. Nay, more—the very Power which is most in-
terested in this question—the Government of Sardinia itself
—has not spoken on the subject. (Hear.) The members of
this house, and the public, may have seen two despatches
which have appeared in the Moniteur, and have since been
reproduced in the newspapers here, which contain a project
for the settlement of Italy, suggested-by France, and one of
which despatches ends by stating that in case that project
were adopted it would still be necessary, for securing the
frontiers of France, to add Savoy. That question concerns
Sardinia more than any other Power in the world. (Hear.)
It is naturally the part of his dominions of which the King
of Sardinia must be the most proud ; it is the country in,
which his house arose;- and in the course of time it has
numbered among its people many of the most gallant and
skilful of officers and many of the bravest of men whose
deeds have adorned the page of history. The Government
of the King of Sardinia have answered at great length, and
with much detail no far as relates to Italy, but with regard
to Savoy, Count Cavour has said that he reserves that as a
separate despatch, and that he will treat it very soon in
that separate despatch, which he will communicate to the
Government of France. Then, 1- say again, when the
Power most of all interested in this question has not yet de-
cided in what way it will act, that this is not the moment
in which we should come to a precipitate conclusion,
(Oheers.) But this I will say, that whatever may be said
with respect to Savoy, my opinion is that the treaty of com-
merce with France is destined, if it obtains the approbation
of the Parliament of this country, to strengthen the ties of
friendship between the two nations, to increase the wealth
and stimulate the industry of both, and that by thus giving
a greater number of the people of France an interest in the
blessings of peace we shall delay, perhaps prevent that
calamity of war which, I think, it is the business of every
European si atesman to use his utmost efforts to avert.
(Loud cheers.) With these convictions I shall be
ready, without entering into this question of Savoy,
to give my earnest support to the motion of my
hon. friend the member for Middlesex (Mr. Lyng) when-
ever he may bring that motion forward ; and when he does
so, I trust the house will consider the question of the treaty
of commerce as the main subject of our deliberations.
(Cheers.) Is there anything, I ask, connected with this
question of Savoy to prevent our strengthening our rolu-

.0

tions with France by ties of commerce? I believe there is-
not, for my part. I cannot understand the part which the
bon. member for Sheffield takes in this matter. I cannot
imagine any thing more pernicious than to indulge in invec-
tive on such a subject, without any definite object. (Cheers.)
If we have to bring forward at a future time the question of
Savoy, after having disposed of coals and other matters of
commerce, do not let gentlemen confine themselves to those
general terms of solemn protest. The hon. member for Hor-
sham says we are to make a solemn protest. What is the
meaning of that ? I can understand the rest of the great
Powers telling the Emperor of France, in a manner per •
fectly friendly, but, at the same time, in a manner perfectly
firm, that this annexation would alarm Europe, and that the
additional territory he would gain would be as nothing to
the consequences it might entail upon him. I can under-
derstand that bring said by the Powers of Europe in terms
which would give it due force. But I can understand
nothing by " a solem protest" but this—" We offer our re-
solution ; accept it, and we will remain on friendly terms
with you ; refuse it, and we shall go to war I" It does not
appear to me, therefore, that that is a course likely to lead to
peace, or one calculated to prevent the Emperor of France
carrying out the object he has in view. It does not
appear that when the hon. member (Mr. S. Fitzgerald) was
in office any great concern was felt on this subject. (Hear.
hear,) Lord Malmesbury was informed at the time that
there was a story going about-said to rest on authority—
of an agreement between France and Sardinia for the ces-
sion of Savoy. When I was told of It I said to my infor •
want he should go to Lord Malmesbury. It did appear
that Malmesbury directed Lord Cowley to make inqury on
the subject, but in doing so he mixed it up with several
other matters. Lord Cowley replied that he had asked
Count Walewski, about these several matters, and that
Count Walewski did not make any observation with regard
to the territorial question. If Lord Malmesbury had been
very serious on this subject, he would have written again to
Lord Cowley, and would not have been content with Lord
Cowley saying that Count Walewski had made no observa-
tion on the territorial question. He would have asked
of Lord Cowley, "Do they deny what is alleged with
respect to Savoy? or, if they ever entertained it, have
they given it up!" If I had been office and Lord Cowley
had written to me that he had received an unsatisfactory
answer, I should certainly have aeked 'him to put the
question again. (Hear, hear.) But this extreme zeal
which we now see on the subject—a zeal which goes be-
yond the mark, because it tends to endanger the peaceful
relations that exist between the two countries—is a
newborn zeal, which the hon. gentleman did not
exhibit when he was in office. (Hear, hear.) I wish to
makntain the honour and dignity of the Queen and the
hodour and dignity of Parliament, but it does not seem to
me that irritating discussions and imputations cast upon
the French Government can in any way contribute to that
object. (Hear, hear.) There was a discussion, the news-
papers told us, some evenings ago in the other Rouse of
Parliament on this subject. I read with great pleasure the
various speeches said to have been made on that occasion
by the members of different parties. It appears to me that
they expressed in a grave and solemn way their opinions
upon this question, and, if the House of Commons comes to
give its opinion on the same question, I trust it will do so
in the same spirit. (Hear.) , The hon. member for Tarn-
worth delighted the house the other night with his elo-
quence, and the language he employed wss such as became
the gravity of the subject; but I am sure that the use of
exciting and, irritating language and casting imputations
on foreign Governments will add nothing to the dignity of
this house, and nothing to the security of the peace of
Europe. (Hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS said the noble lord had, uninten-
tionally he was sure, done injustice to his 'predecessors in
office. The noble lord informed the house that Lord
Malmesbury instructed Lord Cowley to demand an explana-
tion from the Government of France as to the rumoured
annexation of Savoy ; that Lord Cowley informed him that
Count Walewski gave no answer whatever to his applica-
tion; and that Lord Malmesbury allowed the matter to rest
there. Now, the noble lord, speaking from memory, had
forgotten the state of the facts, and had—unintentionally,
no doubt—misstated them. The late Government did not
allow the matter to drop, in the way stated by the noble
lord, but obtained from the French Government a positive
contradiction of the rumour that Lord Cowley had been in-
structed to bring before them. (Hear, hear.) He hoped,
therefore, that the noble lord would take the earliest oppor-
tunity of unsaying what, from momentary forgetfulness, he
had stated to the house on this subject. (Hear, hear.) Re-
ferring to the question immediately before the house, he
could not reconcile the tone of the noble lord's speech that
night with the one which he delivered on Friday evening.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord on Friday invited the co-ope-
ration of Parliament in the protest he was making against
the proposed annexation of Savoy ; but on the present occa-
sion he understood him to deprecate discussion in that
house, though he seemed to approve the discussion which
took place in the other House of Parliament. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord objected to what he called a precipitate
judgment on the part -of that house ; but those who, like
the hon. member for Sheffield and himself, held that the
commercial treaty ought not to receive the final sanction of
Parliament till some deliberate expression of its opinion was
given on this most momentous of all the questions of the
day, found that the noble lord himself had laid the founda-
tion for the view they took in the first despatch he wrote on
the subject of the commercial treaty. (Hear, hear.) in that
despatch the noble lord gave special prominence to the im-
portance of the commercial treaty in a European and politi-
cal sense, though now he wished them to look at it simply
on commercial grounds. (Hear.) The noble lord said :
" Its general tendency would be to lay broad and deep
foundations in common interest and in friendly intercourse
for the confirmation of the amicable relations that so hap-
pily exist between the two countries ; and, while thus mak-
ing a provision for the future,-"which would progressively
become more and more solid and efficacious, its significance
at the present moment, when the condition of setae parts of
the continent is critical, would be at once understood, and
would powerfully reassure the public mind in the various
countries of Europe."
After this announcement on the part of the noble lord,
how could he ask Parliament to dissever, in their conside-
ration on this question, the commercial treaty and the " cri-
tical condition of some pai is of the Continent of Enroper
Would he deny that the condition of some parts of Europe
was at this moment " critical ?" (Hesr.) And was the
noble lord entitled to ask them to refrain from giving an
opinion on the causes that led to this critical condition of
certain portions of Europe before their assent was given to'
the treaty which the noble lord said would enable France
and England to lay deep the foundation of a common in-
terest and a friendly intercourse ? (Hear, hear.) The
noble lord objected to what he seemed to think were tease
ing repetitions of the debate on the subject of Savoy.
Everybody would agree with the noble lord that they ought
to discuss the question in a fair and legitimate manner, but
he and those around him thought that that discussion
should take precedence of the one in reference to the treaty.
(Hear. hear.)
, Lord H. VANE thought they would hardly accomplish
the object they all had in view, viz., to deprecate this an-
nexation of-Savoy to France, if they coupled that subject
with the commercial treaty. (Hear.) Their object was to
prevent the accomplishmeni; of that annexation, and he
agreed with the noble lord in thinking that much value was
to be attached to an expression of the opinion of Parliament
on the subject ; but he could not countenance the idea that
any advantage would attend the use or violent and vitupe-
rative language towards the head of the French Govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the noble lord the
Foreign Secretary in thinking that if this annexation
was to be prevented it must be done by the united action
of Europe, and not by a single protest of our own. The
people of this country were unanimous in deprecating that
annexation, and he trusted it would not be permitted.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. NE WDE GATE, as an independent member, wished
to point out to the Government that they ought to alter the
course they had pursued. They had not adopted the line
taken in 1787, because they had omitted to bring in the pre-
_ _ _

liminary resolutions which had enabled the House of Com-
mons of that day to consider the political bearings of that
treaty, independently of the commercial and financial ques-
tions involved. The Government had, on the contrary,
plunged into a Committee of Ways and Means, and the
house had consequently no fair means of expressing
an opinion upon the political bearings of the treaty. The
bon. member for Birmingham said, " Perish Savoy I"
But we were about to enter into commercial transactions
with France affecting £1,000,000 of our revenue, and did
the Government intend to offer whatever advantage
that sacrifice of revenue entailed as a subsidy to France
for the purposes now announced ? He thought the house
had a right to demand a fair opportunity of stating that

I if we were about to make financial sacrifices, and to confer
great commercial advantages upon France, it was nit to
subsidise France to crush the liberties of Savoy. (Hear,
hear.) He had been delighted to hear the speech of the
hon. and learned member for Sheffield. Some of his ex-
pressions were too severe to the Emperor of the French,
but he rejoiced to hear an independent member vindicate
the right of the British House of Commons to put its ,own
interpretation upon its own language and its own acts.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK only differed from his hon. friend who
had just spoken uponone point. He went all lengths in the
opinion that the house ought to have ample time for consi-
dering this question of Savoy before they accepted the treaty
with Franco. He would oven go further, and say that the
worst thing that could happen for the honour and happiness
of England was that the treaty should ever be ratified at all.
He deprecated, however, the use of personal and coarse in-
vective. (Hear, hear.) Ho believed that such language only
recoiled on those who uttered it, and was alike discreditable
to the house and to the country it represented. (Cheers.)
The Government complained that discussions of this kind
were extrenitlf inconvenient, but they had only themselves
to blame for them. He contended that the Government had
attempted- to stifle discussion, and he could not admit the
representations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that
the general interests of the country required that there
should be no delay in passing these resolutions. The party
represented by the hon. member for Birmingham might
have a positive and pecuniary object in hurrying the treaty
to a conclusion, and it was not therefore surprising that the
Government should lend itself to this view. But he had very
little doubt the commercial interests of the country were
opposed to the measures or the Government. (Cries of "Oil
• • - „)

oh 1") There was a general belief that the Government had
some object in precipitating matters, and that an apprehension
was felt that, if certain negotiations were not explained
satisfactorily, some obstacles might arise to the completion
of the pending arrangement. I ow, he confessed he should
be too glad to see any obstacles interposed;to the success of
the proposed treaty. He believed that almost every interest
in England was opposed to this treaty. (" Oh 1" and a
laugh.) Hon. members might laugh ; but let them com-
pare the number of hon. gentlemen representing commer-
cial interests who had spoken favourably of this treaty with
the number whe had spoken against it. (Hear,) The rea-
son why the Government had carried their resolutions was
that those whb opposed the treaty, instead of wisely uniting
for a common purpose, had been cut to pieces in detail.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Bright) had
charged those who sat upon the Opposition benches with not
pursuing a manly course in regard to this treaty. But was
it manly to sacrifice the honour and interests of England
merely for the sake of the benefits resulting from a commer-
cial treaty ? There was nothing the hon. gentleman was
not prrepared to sacrifice to the beneficial results of this
treaty. If that was the hon. member's opinion of what
constituted a manly course it differed very cbnsiderably
from his. The hon. gentleman had taken occasion to ob-
serve that they were sitting in the English House of Com-
mons and not in the Parliament of France ; but many
speeches of the hon. gentleman had given him the impres-
sion that they ought rather to be addressed to the Congress
of the United States, to the proceedings of which it was the
avowed object of the hon. gentleman to assimilate their
debates.

Mr. B. COCHRANE inquired whether the motion with
respect to an address to her Majesty regarding the commer-
cial treaty with France would be brought forward on Thurs-
day or Friday ?

Lord J. RUSSELL—On Thursday.
Mr. STIRLING said some very important papers had
been published that morning in the newspapers, which
formed no part of the correspondence that had been laid on
the table of the house. The noble lord likewise had stated
that a very important despatch might be expected from
Count Cavour in reply to that addressed to him by the
French Government. As it was natural to suppose that the
Sardinian Government would wish the greatest publicity to
be given to their opinions, he had no doubt copies of both
documents would bo forwarded to this country. He wished,
therefore, to inquire whether these papers would be laid on
the table before the debate was taken on the address to the
Crown—(hear, hear)—respecting the commercial treaty
with France. He put this question because, like many emi-
nent members of the house, he felt unable to separate the
question of Savoy from the other matters involved in the
treaty. By this instrument they were about to enter inso
new and unnatural engagements with the Emperor of the
French—engagements which last July the noble lord on the
Treasury bench had several times declared ought not to Le"
entered into with any Power whatever. As an independent
member of Parliament, before he gave his assent to engage-
ments with a foreign Power he.had a right to ask how the
Sovereign of that State observed older and more important
engagements with other free States of Europe. (Hear.) He
had a right to know how far the rights guaranteed by treaty
to Switzerland would be respected. On this subject the
papers on the table of the house gave no satisfaction what-
ever, save that the representative of Switzerland in Paris
was utterly unable to obtain information, and seemed to be
haunting the British Embassy for the sake of the intelli-
gence which might be gained in that quarter. It was, there-
fore, but reasonable that members, by the production of
those papers, should be afforded an opportanity of making
up their minds before they were called on to vote an address
to the Crown. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COLLIER said an appeal had been made by the noble
lord the member for Tiverton to his hon. friend the member
for Sunderland to withdraw his motion, which proposed that
further negotiations should be entered into for the purpose
of inducing the French. Government to enter into a supple-
mentary treaty of navigation, and to relax their laws in
favour of British shipping. He understood the noble lord
to make this appeal chiefly on the ground that to propose an
addition of this kind to the address would be very incon-
venient; but he understood him at the same time to say
that if the motion was brought forward in a substantive
form, a day would be given for the purpose, and he also
collected that the noble lord would not be disposed to give
any opposition to the principle of the motion. On the ques-
tion of navigation he considered the commercial treaty to
be defective, and the country, he thought, had reason to
cofnplain of the stringency of the French regulations, while
our restrictions had all been abolished. He ventured to ask
whether he had correctly understood the statement of the
noble lord ?

Sir H. IVILLOUGHBY said the noble lord the Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs gave an assurance last year that
the Emperor of the French had abstained from all intention
of annexing Savoy.

Lord J. RUSSELL—At that time he did, as will appear
by the despatch of Count Walewski.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the despatch of Count
Walewski did state a possible event in which the Emperor
of the French, even at that time, considered the annexation
of Savoy indispensable ; which was, in case any addition
was made to Piedmont on the side of the Duchies or the
Legations. He wished to know whether the noble lord had
any objection to produce the correspondence in which that
eventuality was described, because it was quite clear that
so far back as July, 1859, the Emperor of the French and
his Government, in some way or other, declared to Lord
Cowley that the annexation of Savoy should follow the
occurrence of certain contingencies with regard to Sardinia.
It was quite clear that if such a distinct declaration had
been made, the Emperor of the French had a right to say
that her Majesty's Government received full warning.
Lord J. RUSSELL—In answer to the question of the
hon. member for Perthshire with respect to certain de-
spatches relating to France and Savoy, I have to sate that
no such despatch has yet arrived, and I do not know if it

,
has yet been written. As soon as the reply of the Sar-
dinian Government has been communicated I shall be ready
to lay it on the table of the house, but it is impossible for
me to say when that may occur, or to what further corre-
spondence it may give rise. The despatches of M. Thouve-
nel have appeared in all the newspapers, but if the house
wish for copies they will of course be laid on the table.
Respecting the discussion of the question of annexation in
1859, there is no public despatch whatever on the subject.
Lord Cowley from time to time in his private letters said
Count Walewski agreed that the annexation of Tuscany to
Sardinia was impossible, but if such a case should ever by
possibility occur, it would then be for France to consider
whether her frontiers would be safe without the annexation
of Savoy. But Lord Cowley, who has acted throughout
with great discretion, did not think proper to introduce
loose conversations or casual intimations into his official
correspondence.

Lord PALMERSTON—I wish to explain a matter which
is not clearly understood by the hon. member for Plymouth.
What I did state to the member for Sunderland was, that
if he would suffer us to discuss the proposition of the ad-
dress to her Majesty, to which he proposed to make the ad-
dition contained in his motion, the Government could have
no possible objection to the opinions which it embodied
being expressedto the house; and they night even think
that such an expression would assist them in any negotia-
tion which might be made officially with France.
The motion for postponing the orders of the day was
then withdrawn.