The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-13 00:00:00

t
It was true we were carrying on hostilities at Canton, but :ceded thestate that they have taken very im-
these were not of such a nature as to call for so great an portent steps in present
this to
dtrection. It is but due to the naval
administration of the Duke of Northumberland in 1852 to
extra expenditure. He believed that thereev as a greatt de-
to say that the better manning of our navy occupied no
sire on the part of the higher classes
they
this coun country
small share of his attention. He appointed a committee,
keep up as large a standing army as could,h and they
took advantage of the state of feeling wiil::iethht e recenteof
tete_ composed of the most able and experienced naval-officers,
one of them of the highest standing Sir R. Dundas-of
ploits of the army in India had created e mind .
whose services I am happy to add I standing-Sir
enjoy the le in order to further their ends. Public attention
Pao!) •
tags, to inquire into this important subject. That
advan-
had recently been directed to the state of our barrack ac-
committee made its report very shortly after the Duke of
commodation, and the Duke of Cambridge had taken ad-
Northumberland retired from office, and in that report
vantage of that to call upon the people to exert a pressure
p, this house, in order that more money might be ob- were embodied two most important recommendations. The
n tined. If the Commander-in-Chief had taken the trouble first of those recommendations was the adoption of a
to see what barracks had already cost this country, he (Mr. system of continuous service men-that is to say, of men
Williams) doubted whether he would have pressed for who should enlist for a longer period of years than usual
more money. He (Ur. Williams) had moved some time and receiving more than the ordinary rate of pay. The
since for a return of moneys expended in barracks. Through second recommendation of the committee was that we
the destruction of papers which had taken place when the should adopt the principle of a marine militia by raising a
Houses of Parliament were burnt, he bad obtained returns body of men, enlisting them in the same way as the land
only from the year 18.34, and by these he found that since militia, upon the voluntary system, ant requiring that
that time 7,450,000/. had been expended upon barracks, they should be annually exercised. This force the corn-
In addition to this it should be borne in mind that there mittee proposed should form a body of men who, in case
was in England, at the close of the war, barrack accommo-
of any national emergency, might at any moment be called
dation for more than twice the number of men which had upon to man our ships. Both of those recommendations
composed our army. And he would also remind the house were carried into effect under the naval administration of
that this 7,000,0001. included neither warming the hos- the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle while in
pitals, furniture, nor barracks for marines. Into these
the government of Lord Aberdeen ; and I think I may sly,
matters there should be inquiry, for it was clear that had without exaggeration, that they constitute by far the most
not a system of jobbing prevailed, the soldiers ought now important steps which have been taken in the direction to
to be furnished with proper accommodation. There was which lam adverting. (Hear.) Another important step
another point too to which he would venture to call at- w.heichel believe
u.i t, for
towrialesustuebs e theue righttl
t to
nn . baronetall d
tention. There were at the present time no less than 3 6 12
generals in the army, and 33 in the marines. A few years the
them placing of ships round our coastsgn iny connex. ion with
since and there were but three in the marines. These 346 the Coastguard, and the strengtheuing of the reserve to be
e C
generals did not include those of the Indian army. He was constituted
and the naval vod by the Coastguard.lunteers
as they By
yare called- - weans of the Coastgnard
generals did not include those of the Indian army. He was I
voluntej- as they are called- -but oast g uard
which in
always willing that men who had served the country in any
fact forma marine militia-we have at this moment a re-
department should be duly rewarded ; but these men were
serve which in case of emergency might at once be called
promoted to the rank of generals simply
out, and I believe I dnotwhen Istate **
e exaggerate
through favour.
And the same state cif things prevailed in the navy. In
necessary, we might, owing to that reserve, within a eeryweream
certainly
last year there were 316, and the number now to be pro-
think, at all events, within a month tg
vided for in these estimates was no less than 345. Thus
fleetofnot l . - - -Pit to sea a channel
leas than 20 line-of-battle ship. (Elear, hear.)
we had two generals for every regiment, and an admiral
They would, however, consist in a great degree of what are
technically called " block ships," which are old 74's, and
and a half for every large ship afloat. He would also call
attention to the subject of the army clothing. The esti-
which are not fit to cope with the more modern vessels in
point of cannon. The house will moreover observe that
mates were not even made out so as to show what the re-
sult of the recent change of system had been, with the ex-
the force to which I have just adverted would be available
, caption of the case of the Guards, and there we found that
only in case of national emergency, and that those volun- ,
the clothes cost 30 per cent. more than they did when the
Duke of Wellington was colonel of the regiment. He be.
tears could be called out under no other circumstances
lieved that. in this matter great jobbing and bribery pre- Neither could the coastguard for any other purpose be
vailed. Upon many other points he could have addressed o
iverted from its ordinary duties; and I for one maintain
the house, but he would not weary them with details. He that it is not consistent with our national dignity or our
hoped that the noble lord who was lately at the head of the national 'safety' that we should not have the means
government would give some reason for the recent rapid of sending ships to sea for any other purpose than
increase of the estimates, and that the right hon. gentle- that for which the reserve has been created. (Hear, hear.)
male opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would re- How, then, are we to deal with this most important point?
member that it was this very question of providing for the lam in hopes we may be able to do so in an efficient man-
estimates which cost him his office when he was last in nor by the judicious extension of the system of continuous
power. He believed that these matters ought to receive tar vice men. (Hear. hear ) I cannot too strongly lament
the careful investigation of the house, and he therefore the course which was taken by the rigbt hon. baronet oppo-
moved thit the army and navy estimates be referred to a site hat year in allowing no less than 3,000 men serving cox
select committee. He merely proposed that this commit- board our ships, and enlisted as continuous service men,
tee should inquire into the extraordinary increase in these to be discharged from the navy, and thus lost to the
items, and report the result of their; investigations to the country. (Hear, hear.) lam unwilling to speak of
house. the conduct of the right honourable baronet in the lan-
Mr. KERSHAW seconded the motion. guage of censure, and I am perfectly well aware of the
Sir J. PAKINGTON declined following the hon. mem- pressure which was exercised upon the Government
bar through his statements, many of which had, in his lest year by the cry of economy which was raised
opinion, little er no reference to the motion. He felt bound throughout the whole of the country. I cannot, however,
to oppose that motion, and he trusted that the house would help wishing that the right hon. baronet had had the wis-
agree with him that it would not be expedient to refer the dons and the firmness to say, in answer to that cry, that
military and naval estimates of England to a select cons. the great interest of England ought not to be tampered
mittee,
with, and that the nation ought not to have receded from
The house divided-- the bargain into which it hal entered. (Hear, hear.) We
For the motion
For Mr. Williams' amendment 23-137 allude a reserve force of between 23,003 and 24,00 conti-
nuous service men. Under the pressure of the cry of
THE NAVY ESTIMATEn.
economy, however, the Government signified to those men
The house then we et into committee on these estimates,
that any of them ho wished to have their discharge might
Sir J. PAKINGTON said,-It will be in the recollec- obtain it. The practical result wasthat out of 5,000 or 6,000
Lion of the committee that when I moved certain votes on of them who happened to be in our home ports no less than
3,000 were lost to the country, and that number has never
account of the navy estimates I then stated that I should
consider it my duty, before any further grants of money since been made up, (Hear, hear.) But that is not all,
were asked for, deliberately to consider the amount of the The worst consequence of the unhappy step which wastaken by the late Government was the moral effect which
estimates which the late Government had submitted, and it produced upon the men themselves. It was regarded by
them in the light of a breach of faith. They s aid, "You
to submit them on the part of her Majesty's present advi-
sera in such a shape as we, after full consideration, might have enlisted us for a perio iof 10 years. We are still mil-
think Parliament ought to sanction. We have since given
ling to serve you; yet you tell us to go about our business.'
(Hear, hear.) The result ha been most unfortunate. We
our best attention to the subject, and now I trust I may must endeavour to retrace our course, and, if possible, to
receive the indulgence of the committee while I proceed regain the position which we occupied. In the attain-
to explain as briefly and clearly as I can in what respect amountsmeat
m of that
as objectthe
number we have
o t
hteo
esoonmt
ien extentuou s
s eve o succeeded,n
we are of opinion that some reduction may be made in the oat present to about '22,000. The aim of those
estimates of the late Government, and in what respect we who era intrusted with the management of the naval
think it impossible with prudence to make any reduction, affairs should be, as it appears to me, while maintaining
in which case it will be my duty to ask for the whole ex-
the minimum amount of force necessary for the pro-
' penditure they proposed. The committee will understand
the etlon and service of the country,seamen should be enters d for co to take care that all
i
that I referred principally to the first vote which I shall hear.) There must be a margin, for moss service. (Hear
the committee will
have to place in their hands- -namely, that for the number see that circumstances alter calculations, and, for in-
of men and for the wages of seamen and marines. Now, stance, WU.° pressure upon us on account of the China war
undoubtedly, the hon, gentleman who just divided the were to cease, we should be able to reduce the naval force
house on the question of referring these estimates to a corn- in the Indian and Chinese waters to the amount at which
stood four years ago, and consequently we should b
mittee is perfectly right in saying that the naval force pro- it
enabled to reduce the vote which I shall ask the house to
posed by the late and adopted by the present Government sanction. The strength of the navy must, of course,
sr
is a very large one. It is, in fact, a larger force than that according to the state of public affairs, and there must
submitted of late years; it is a larger one than was proposed always be a margin which should consist of ance service men, with whom we may deal without pro-
that in the opinion of the present Government our
rede-
non-coutinu-
last year ; but lam bound to say, after full consideration, clueing the bad effect which the step taken last year no-
p questionably- did produce. Beyond that margin the present
cessors took a bold and wise course in making that recom- Government is decidedly of opinion that the entire force
mendation to Parliament, and we cannot consistently with of seamen should consist of men entered for continuous
our sense of duty propose any reduction in that force. service, and this very day I have given directions that
(Hear, hear.) I think I shall best discharge the task which every means should be used to increase the number of men
entered as fast as possible np to a given amount. I ulna
now devolves upon me by being perfectly frank and open now s-ate to the committee what is the opinion of the pre-
with the committee. I propose, then, to lay before them sent Government upon another point, in which opinion I
the reasons which influenced the present Government in anticipate the concurrence of every member of the house,
adopting so high anestimate ; and when I harestated what viz., that we ought never to be without a Channel fleet.
is the course we think necessary on this most important (Hear,) Ido not think it is consistent with our position,
subject I believe the committee will not hesitate now, and with our national dignity or safety, that we should. have
never will hesitate, to vote whatever money may be neces- no naval force at all in the Channel. I remember when
eery to uphold the naval power of this country. (Hear.) my right hon. friend opposite proposed his estimate last
On a former occasion I explained the real difference be-
tween the votes proposed by the late Government for the oft hee state of affairs n
inela Chins. I llow the pressure of
wages of seamen and marine& in this and last year. The affairs in China at that time was severe, but I venture to
number of men proposed for 1858-9 is, in fact, 3,000 more think that no Government should under any circumstances
than the ultimate strength which was taken last year. The leave the Channel without a ereenron. Her nbnate's
vote originally moved this time twelve months by the right Gevernment hold it to be their first duty, without any loss
hon. baronet opposite was fur a force of 33,0,0 seamen, of time that can be avoided, to establish a Channel squa-
-15,00e marines, 2,000 men, for surveying purposes, and, I dron not only for the protection of our shores, but for the
think, 5,700 men for the coastguard service. At a subse- exercise of our dB-ars and men. The hon. and gallant
when
elementary period of the year the late Government moved asu - her foi Southwark.- wit agree with me, I am sure, when
plementary note for '2,0)0 seamen ; so that the total forcPe I say for
tthe introduction of steam into our navy is so re-
for 1857-8 amoanted to 35,000 officers, seamen, and boys, cent, and our officers as yet so unaccusto ted to its apoli-
-2,000 men for surveyieg purposes, and 5700 for the coast- cation, that it is essential there should be a squadron for
guard, amounting in the !whole, 55,700 men. The late l •
eve ntions and practice which shall enable officers and men
Government have proposed, and it is now my duty to pro- to become practically acquainted with the new system.
pose, that this force shall be increased by an addition of (Hear.) We have an example before us set by our oppo-
-2,000 officers and sailors to man our ships, and of 1,000 for site neighbours in France, which we cannot withprudence
the coastguard service. Hon. members will observe that neglect. They do not allow their coasts to be leftPdefence-
on the face of the vote the number of men for the coast- less, nor do they allow their officers and sailors tore main
guard service appears to [be raised from 5,700 for last without opportunities for practice. On the contrary, with
year to 7,38) for 1858-9. I wish, however, to explain great prudence, and with his usual sagacity, the Emperor
that, although there is an apparent increase to this of the French has assembled at Toulon
orce wc wil
extent, the real difference, as I mentioned amounts form a squadron of evolution, andol beforehi thhe pre-
only to I,oao. The addition of 680 men is owing sent summer has passe I awarthat we shall see in our own
to a transferfrona the civil to the naval portion of the coast Channel a equadron worthy of England and her naval
guard service. It was the policy of the right hon. gentle- reputation assembled for the same praisew, rthy object.
man opposite, and I believe a wise policy, to get rid of the H • •-
•
eving told the committee the number of men which we
civil portion of the coastguard establishment; and there- shall ask them to grant, I will now proceed to explain how
fore this apparent increase of 680 men only consists inthae we shall dispose of therm I have said we ask for 2,00 ad-
transfer from one branch of the coastguard service to ditional men, in order to complete the manning of our
other. The whole adrition, as I have said, is 2,000 sailors
and 1,000 coastgu ire men, and the vote which I shall v ships. Of those 2,000 tenon 1,621 are already on board ship,
to place in your hands for re; ment of the wages amounts.e
leaving 379 to be obtained. I have explained that, in order
_ to 2,401,5.)111. The state of the case as respects the roes tO complete the hat hour ships in commission wo want
borne on the books of the ships is this :-When I move, tti. 1,318 men more than we have. Deduct from that number
vote on occount I stated that the men actually on the the balance of 379 to be gains 1 out of the increased vote,
to •ks a ere considerably beyond the number voted for and there will remain 939 more than the increased esti-
-1857:- -I think to the extent of something like 1.000. mate,a supposing all the ships to be fully manned. For the
squadron, which we hope to fit out in the course of
the summer,nn'wlaiic_shall require 1,500 more men and also 1000
That number has increased, and we have now actually on
board our ships 1,621 more men and boys than were voted for relef
metilammotset
tit effected during this year. That
last year. Assuming, therefore, that the committee will gives 3,4:3
we ask, but within the next three the increased vote for which
grant the vote whicl shall now propose, there will, in
months there will arrive
fact, remain a balance of (oily 8791-eamen out of the addi- from China, the Mediterranean,
tdheothetr stations ships
tional 2,000 to be voted. On the other hand, at this pre- whose craws will be paid off loan
sent moment, in order to complete the manning of our Therefore, after having provided for theil reel' 2;e4nBiBeniuts'oni
ships in commission, wo want 1,318 mote sailors than we the ships now in commission, for such additional ships as
now have in those ships. The first topic to which I shall wo hope to have soon in the Channel, and 1,000 for for n
call the attention of the committee in connexion with the reliefs, we shall have a balance out of the vote we nom ask
proof I hope to give as to the necoss;ty of the large increase for of 49 men retnaining in England That is the ex plena-
proposed in the number of men will be the present state of tion I have to give of the vote, which is a large one, I a limit,
our forces in East India and China. In 1856, only two I wi-ll I could consistently with my duty have propos d a
years ago, our force in those seas consisted of 17 ships, lower amount, but I trust the explanation I have given
carrying 333 guns, and manned by 3,151 sailors. The force will convince the committee that it is not unnecessarily
in East India and China at present consists of 75 ship', large in order to mainta:n the navy in a state of efficiency.
carrying 953 guns, with a force of 11,863 men. Several I hope the policy of this country will ever be, while adept-
of these ships are now coming home, and six are OR in its force to the varying circumstances of the time, to
their way home, carrying 154 guns, withl,6S7men• but that maintain the navy in an effective condition, to keep up an
will leave on the East India and China station a force of effective Channel squadron and further to have a reserve
61 ships. carrying 789 guns, and manned by 10,206 sailors. of available seamen to man our ships upon an emergency,
It will be seen that this is a very large increase upon the without the recurrence of so humiliating and unsati-f '
force we have had at any previous period in these seas, and, astate of things as we have lately witnessed at our apetnqrsY.
in fact, amounts to a large proportion of th whole force (Hear,hear.) With this explanation I shall now proceed to
grant.
which we are now about to ask the committee tool the second vote, for. victuals to tip fleet, which is
am happy to say that a very great increase in our force has 1,027, 1571., being an increase of 165,109 t, upon the vote of
also taken place on the African coast for the
disposalssresion of last year. The committee will at once see that the amount
the slave-trade. lam quite sure that no of oar of this vote depends upon the preceding one, for if the
naval force could be more acceptable to this house oru nmtore number of men be increased the amount of charge for their
in accordance with public sentiment in this co rey. victuals also increases. We do not propose to make any
Nevertheless, in calling upon Parliament to vote the nec change in reference to the votes intervening between votes
sary supplies for the naval service of the year, this is as. 2 and 8, but I have to request the attention of the com-
item which we are bound to take into account. In 1835 (to mittee while I explain the intentions of Government as to
go no further back) we had upon the coast of Africa 20 tttee vote No, 8, and the reasons why we have deviated from
ships, carrying 134 guns and 1,9'29 men. We have now
there a fo:ce of' 29 ships, with 215 guns and 3,353 men, so than they ofi
the late Government, and propose a smaller vote
that. in fact, out of the whole naval force in this countr n to sabruit. We have not arrived at that
y determinyat7oe without most anxious oonsideratien. I have
committee the necefeity
there are at this moment, including the crews of ships
mayveurednt •
which are on their way home from India and China, be of maintainingoolumrPnraevssyrnatthaet
no;
seaffiTicatli.
hed': te :toil
eaaoteotsui holombylet.i
tween 15,000 and 16,000 of our sailors now upon the Afri- lieve they will agree with mae where
have nourreiguliptotno
can and the East India and China stations. While I think be done with the utmost practicable
it will be satisfactory to the committee to hear of the (Hear.) With my short tenure of officree
strength of these squadrons, I shall not conceal from them imply anything that might appear to bo a
that the position of this country at home has not been preceding Adrninistiations, but I must owei:ni
fully satisfactory. I think it far better to make this impression that our dockyards are not conduct have
tin
avowal and ask Parliament to deal with it as they think that strict regard to economy which pis
del with
fit than to attempt to conceal facts which must be known (Hear, hear.) I hope the committee
to every Government in Europe, and are, I believe, only stand what I mean. I think it is ono of the first udnutr
unknown to members of this house. (Hear, hear.) Until of any Minister who is intrusted with the affairs of the
within a very recent period we possessed no ships of war navy to conduct those affairs wth the moat r gni econoni
which were not employed on foreign stations or in distant , that is consistent with efficiency, (Hear, hear.) Extravay-
portions of the empire. We had as a consequence no vessels gance does not promote efficiency. (Hear, hear.) Idu not
the services of which could be madeimniediately available. intend to imply that in proposing 12,190 men for the ser-
Now, however, we have in our harbours some of the most vice of the clock 'arils, the late Government laid them-
noble ships that ever floated upon the ocoan-(betir) -and selves open to a charge of extravagance. I am unwilling
we are adding rapidly to their number. (Hear.) I cannot, to propose without the clearest conviction of its naceasity
nevertheless, too emphatically call upon the committee to a vote which has no precedent in our naval estimates. I
bear in mind that ships are quite useless unless wo have greatly respect the desire of the hon. member for Lambeth
the means wherewith to man them, (Hear, hear.) To the for economy, but I think his idea that we can now go hack
difficulties by which this important question is beset every to the naval estimates of the time of the Duke of Welling-
one who has filled the poet which I have now the honour ton or of Lord Grey is quite chimerical. (Hearn Groat
to occupy has had his attention most earnestly direeted• changes have taken place since then in our carat system
I have said that we have now in our harbours some of and I aui perfectly convinced that we cannot go back to the'
itallfeormmostthneobleshis that over floated, but then I must naval establishment of former. rla,ys. Lot me remini the
they are not ready committeef .that owing to the want of mot hon. gentleman and the committee of the wonderful change
for instor immediate service, The Renown, made in late years in the size of our men-of-war. (Hear,
anern is at present lying
.at Spithead with one fn. hear.) It was only the other day -
that our large nne-of-
gate and two corvettes ;udeuat she is not as yet fully manned, battle ships, such as the Neptune, Caledonia, Britannia,
notwithstanding that e
cure the r«misite number o7urs have been made to pro- and St. Vincent, which we thought the grandest ever
months. We have the Marlbmore
onufoolf her for the last four launched, were only 2,60 tons, but what is the tonnage of
Portsmouth har-
bour, waiting to relieve the RoyDael:Annlpti)eonritt inthe Mediter- our first-rate ships now ? The Duke of Wellington, Marl-
racerin, and the Euryalus atborough, Royal Albert, and the ship
ships of theirrespective classes which were evere two
finest
380') or 4,009 tons. I saw last week on the cloaks at
ctioonnstructed Portsmouth a new ship, the Victoria, which will
lately launched are
but they are unable to proceed to their destine
to the want of men. Although, therefore, the ntusuCingt exceed them. At this moment there is a 32-gun ligrrieeaettely,
men for the service of the present year exceeds thautovmorbte:lr the _Diadem, which le 2,500 tons-that is to say, n illiu
lest year, still it actually falls short by 1,300 of the 1r0) tons of the size of our three-deckers some years ago.
required to man the vessels now in commission in our liar- These great changes in the size of our ships m mit necessarily
hours. (Hear, hear.) While, however, I make that state-
i aami
alnig
i:Epdcascastorthmeee apsin
atanenstarhi
expenditure dpdst;ocyaft
issao
ourni ) proportionate dockyards,psotre tai
mo n
into et
o
meat, I think I may confidently say that in some important
the exception, but now all our new
respects this country is in a better position with respect to increaseourN e
navy, ye .i in the
hsfewtebeeylera' inrnst
ip . I b hove whichmmittee ie scarcely
bower the introduction of
the manning of her navy than that in which she stood
801:08 time since, and I believe it requires nothing more' aware of the
givenntoormtCLP
than a fair degree of liberality upon the part of the Hoqse steam has
navy of England. I hold in
of Commons to place that important subject epon it most ;my hand a return showing th aggregate
years. In 1644, onl 1
lam also bound in justice our ships in a series of
1.8`) th 1 et year before the
horse-power o
aetisfactery footing. (Cheers )
y 4 years ago,
to the three Administrations which have immediately pie- thet power was 23,379. In me e a

Russian war, it was 44,250; and now, in 1858, it has risen • had never heard such a good and clear speech as that just
to 99,512. The committee will bear in mind the gigantic delivered. (Hear, hear.) He had spoken so well of the
expenditure and the vast additional labour occasioned by propriety of maintaining and keeping up the discipline
this change. I am sure the hon. member for Lambeth of the navy and its efficiency, that he might almost have
himself will admit it is absolutely impossible to construct supposed him a sailor himself. (A. laugh.) The right hon.
and repair our present .gigantic steamships in the same baronet had also gone far to do away with the stupid no-
dockyards in which were constructed and repaired our tion that it was improper to discuss these naval estimates
smaller sailing ships of some years ago. In the course for fear foreigners might make use of the informatiod to
of the last six years the machinery for our ships and our our injury.
The right hon. baronet had stated that the
dockyards has cost us no less than 3,687,0001. Of navy never was in a bettor condition. That was the state-
course, the Russian war was the main cause of that went made by all First Lords of the Admiralty, neverthe-
expeaditure ; but we cannot maintain our navy in a less he quite agreed with the statement to-night, that we
proper condition without incurring an expenditure to never had so fine a navy, or a better set of ships than at
which we have hitherto been unaccustomed. I have this moment. (Rear, hear.) But the navy never would
already expressed my regret that the late Government have reached that state of efficiency if they hal no discus-
took, under pressure, a step which deprived us of 3,600 aims upon its management. There was, it might be re-
of our seamen, and I no less regret that under the membered, first, the old Navy Board ; then there was a
same pressu: e they threw out of commission seven or eight surveyor appointed, who built ships without any bottoms.
ships and several frigates last year, every one of which is (A laugh.) They had the old " tin pot" system ; hut then
now being refitted for commission at great expense to the came the appointment of that excellent officer Sir Baldwin
country. Ido not blame the late Government for having Walker, the present Surveyor-General of the Navy, than
done so, and, in fact, admit that lam responsible for bay- whom, if they searched the country over, they could not
ing contributed to the pressure under which they acted ; find a better. They had only to look at the stripe he had
but if ever there was a case of penny wise and pound fool- sent ow, to see how much the country was indebted to
ish, it was that throwing out of commission ships upon him. Upon the efficiency of the navy they might be well
which we are now spending thousands upon thousands to satisfied, they bad four screw ships of the line, of 800-
put them in sailing order. (Hear.) The whole strength of horse power— the Marlborough, the Royal Sovereign,
our dockyards is now being applied to therepair of those Conqueror, and Renown. They had ono of 70)-horse
ships which were last year thrown out of commission. I power—the Duke of Wellington. They had six screw
am therefore justified in saying that the present pressure ships of 600-horse power, three ships of 500 horse power,
upon oar dockyards is exceptional, and that increases my and five from 400 to 450-horse power. All these ships
reluctance to propose an unprecedented amount of force in were afloat, ant that was the state of their steam navy.
our dockyards until lam satisfied of its necessity. I can- Brat they had also others repairing, converting, snit build-
not touch this part of the question without requesting the ing. Of these they bad two ships (the Victoria and the
attention of the committee to a subject which I know has Howe) each of 1,000-horse power; five ships of 800-
for several years attracted the attention of naval men as it horse power, and seven ships from 600 to 400-horse
has that of the present Government during the short time power. The house would readily suppose that to be a
they hare been in o nee. I allude to that most objection- very tine navy ; but, notwithstan ling that, he dis g-
able and unwise practice of commissioning our ships for proven of discontinuing the arming and building of ships,
only three years. (Rear, hear.) It is most costly and most for the French Government were on the alert, as they
injurious to discipline. In proof of that I beg to state a few would see freed the following list of the French navy,
facts as to the refitting of two of our largest line-of-battle which he had received from a French naval officer, of
sailing ships. I have not been able to ascertain the cost of which those in commission in February, 1858, were—Bre-
refitting steamships ; but no doubt it is greater than that tagne, 130 guns; Algesiras, 90 guns ; Aroole, 01 guns ;
of refitting sailing ships. I have here a statement of the Eylau, 90 guns; Prince Jerome, 90 guns; Ulm, 90 guns;
expense of refitting the Queen from the time of her first Austerlitz, 90 guns; Tage, 90 guns; Donawerth, 80 guns;
commission in 1815 down to 1452, and of refitting the Tourville, 80 guns. The Fiend' had two ships afloat of
Rodney, one of our largestsailing ships, from her first corn-
-114 guns, and one of 130 guns. Altogether they bait 23
mission iu 1840 down to the last year she was in commis- large screw ships of the line afloat, and 15 repairing. con-
sion, viz., 1e56, and this is the result :—The expense of venting, or building. Now, although that fleet might not
each refitting the Queen was 19,9231. and of each refitting be so strong as the British, they should recollect that they
the Rodney 22,9961. So that the mean expense of refitting often required two or three fleets to watch one fleet, so as
each of them wee 21,45tt. If each of them were refitted to . revent it from doing mischief. There should be no re-
three times in 10 years each cost three times that amount : laxation in building screw ships, for sailing vessels were now
and if refitted twice each cost twice that sum. We find that of no use whatever ; but while they were building these
the mere saving of one refittal of one of such ships in eo fine ships, it was necessary to give one caution more—viz ,
years is a saving of 21,452/. ; and if to this we add the that they must recollect that probably in ten years' time
additional cost of refitting steam-ships we shall easily per- they would be superseded by new and improved arrl more
ceive that the country would save a vast amount of money formidable armaments. Ships would be built with it ,n
if the practice of commissioning for merely three years, sines and iron batteries against which, if they brought an
which necessitates such constant refittings, were abolished, ordinary three-decker such as they wore now building, she
(Hear.) It is notorious that our large line-of-battle ships would be entirely useless. Let thorn take a frigate of 30
are not refitted in less than nine months, and that some of guns anti fit her up as he had suggested, and then put
our best naval officers are not satisfied unless the line-of- one of their present tbree-deekers against her with all her
battle ship to which they may have been commissioned armament, and let them fire away, and see which would
requires one year and a-half for refitting. In this way get the beet of it. (A laugh.) Yes, hon. gentlemen might
half the time for which a ship is commissioned is often lost, taught, but it was nevertheless true. The right hon. be-
so that we find we are not only losing money by the system, ronet had said truly that ships were not the navy, and
but that a large portion of the time for which ships are that was true. La men they they were deficient, and al-
commissioned is taken up ie petting them into proper though it had been denied, an order had been issued in
order. A point arises here which cannot but be regarded May, 1857, by the First Lord of the Admiralty, giving per-
as one of considerable importance. If we ware to adopt mission for men and boys to discharge themselves from the
permanently the system of commissioning ships for four navy. That was to be blamed; nevertheless the PrimeMini-
years—my own feeling would be for five years—but, at ster rather than the Admiralty was in fault for that step.
any rate, if we wore to allow the rule of commissioning The Prime Min inter should hare come down to the house
ships for a longer time than at present, one of the results and showed the necessity of keeping this fine force afloat.
would necessarily be to produce a material effect on the The Secret ry of the Admiralty had given as a reason for
taht
ee
oFfrtehnec hF LI,
iaaveyh. a
aHer C
Sir.
C.
a Woodlei er)
thhaids the
pointedlarg
outlarge fo rtcheaoaft
hPeeasirtir Ton aheednPuraleereotsf eofffitcheersedlEiesterrisbouftetdhaemnoavnyithe( fsiheiapre
would be diminished in proportion to the extension of the in 1856, The boo, awl gallant officer next complained of
period of commission, and this raises a question which we the improper discharge of men who had come forward in
are bound seriously to consider. lam not prepared defini- our hour of need, and whose places, when thus diseharged,
tively to announce the intentions of the Government on it was difficult to fill when occasion arose. The next error
the subject, but I think it is unquestionably one of those of the Government which he pointed out was, that they
grave questions connected with the administration of the had not in many places screw ships iostea lof sailing yes-
navy which we are called on to consider, and I may say eels in commission, whereas screw ships, he contended,
that it will receive our best attention. We are bound to ought always to have the preference. When he had stated
take care, not only of the pay and position of the officers, this last session he was pooh poohed ; but before the late
but also of their efficiency, and to promote their efficiency Government went out they had begun to act upon this
it is desirable that they should be able to go to sea for a principle, and he WsB glad to find that the present Govern-
fair term of service. We think a longer period of went would do the same. All the best ships should be fully
service than at present should be established, but at the manned, so that when a ship was out in commission she
same time we see the difficulty arising from the position of could go alongside the flagship and receive her first draft of
the officers. We hope, however, to be able at no distant men and marines, and by this means she might be got
time to effect the improvement we desire in such a way ready for sea iu one month instead of lying five months.
as to promote economy without injuring the prospects of The men to be drafted from the flatship would be contiou-
those gallant officers whose best interests we are al ~ays ous service men ; but it was always best to allow them the
bound to keep in view, (Hear.) In further illustration opportunity of volunteering if passible. If the crews of
of what I have said I may mention that there are at this ships were reduced, instead of being fully 'd off t
moment nine ships in dock, not one of which has been in saving would be effected. Certain vessels which he a Crest
commission more than three years, and they have all been were paid off in 51,y 1856, an lon the 2) hof Junonamed
commission. .t, te
remitted at great cost to the country. If the system of five news arrived of the r'ebell, '
.on in India. If that fleet had
years' commission had been acted on, not one of these ships not been paid off they might have taken out the need have been fitted up as they had been at so great an drafted half their men, ant in less than4B hoursgtehnes'
expense. (Hear, hear.) Having stated our views as to the could have asst out 10,003 or 12,000 men out to India);
system of commission, I shall now direct the attention of and let them fancy how many lives the timely arrival t f
the committee to what I must call the unprecedented est.i- such a fleet would have caved. (Haaw, hear.) Not only
mate of 12,190 men for the dockyards. I believe the so, but, this could have been done at a total cost of some
largest dockyard establishment ever voted by Parliament 4,000/. to 6,000/ , instead of paying at the rate of 40/. tir
was that of last year—viz , 10,850 men, being the same as , 50/. a head as we had done. He next combated the as
ser-
had been voted in 1856-7; but now in 1853 the late Go- l tion that it, was unnecessary to give the sailors bounty, and
swim:rent proposed to vote 12,190 men. I cannot help pointed out the good effects arising from the bounty given
thinking that, on the whole, these excessive votes for dock- to soldiers. He complained of the abolition of the good
yard establishments have been subject to irregulerity. I l conduct pay given to seamen who had conducted them-
beg to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman the selves satisiactoril
member for Halifax (Sir C Wood) to the fact that this yon foreign stations, and asserted that
faith should in every particular be kept with the mere
question of dockyard establishments was the subject of Patty officers should be allowed not ',illy the stripes but,
inquiry before a committee of the House of Commons in the pay which attacheil to them. With respect to the
18IS, and that that committee made a distinct recommen- coast guerd, the present number eves 7,380, who were sup-
dation that there should be a permanent dockyard osta- Posed to be composed of the best class of seamen. But
blishruent of 9,621 men, which recommendation was an- after serving five years in the coast guard they were not
thorized by an order in Council passed in 1850. Notwith- obliged to come forward to serve again ; and what was a
standing that order in Council, however, we had last year man worth when for fifteen years be ha I been comfortably
an establishment of 10,850 men, and this year we have had located on shore? (Hear, hear.) If the coast guard were
a proposal for 12,190 men. Now, I cannot but think that obliged to serve a portion of their time they wrestld volun-
it would be better either to repeal the order in Council or teer ; but at present they could get their pensions without
to have an annual order in Council passed, and thus to go doing so. In the Baltic campaign he had found tha coast
on in a business-like manner, than to be exceeding the guards and Welsh seamen most deserving men always
fixed number of 9,621 men, thus practically setting aside , striving to snstaiu
proper discipline , nil he was , y
glad that
the order alt ,gather. (Hear, hear.) It is not the intern. l all the coast guard men for the future were to be s-amen,
tion of the Government to ask in the present vete but this n-nilli not he time a?! at or,c—. Lie d2iil of titty-
for more than 10,e-0) being Cie :Jew : :sr last yeer.°l eigtt ditye was not en digh, and measures should be titken
The committee will see that for the reasons I some time to secure greater efficiency. In case of emergency, France
age mentioned the present pressure on our dockyards just now would be able to man her fleet before we cotrid
is exceptional. I am of opinion that, notwithstend_ man ours. We must have a Channel Squadron, and man
ing what I have said as to the increase of our ships, it--(hear, hear)—and if our present estimates would not
the establishment will be found to be sufficient. do, we must have others. Whet we wanted was is Minis-
What I propose, then, is that, instead of increasing the ter who would come down to the House of Commons anti
establishment, we should take a vote of 50,0001. to be say, " Unless you give nee money enough to man the Chan-
spent on hired labour, and in making up extra hours. I eel fleet, you roust get some one else to rule the country,
ought terstate that during the last three or four years, for I won't." (Laughte, and cheers.) If a Minister were
when we have had an establishment of 10,850 men, that to matte such e speech as that, ho would be cheered from
number has been exceeded by the employment of hired . one end of the house to the other, and from one end of the
labourers, sometimes to the extent of 400 or 500 men. My country to the other. (Hear, hear.) He believed they
proposal now, however, is that 50,0,01. shall be expended might now look forward to better days. (Hear hear. The
on hired labour. This is 100,000/. more than the vote of constitution of the Admiralty wanted ,
reforming. The
last year • but the actual increase is only 50,0001., there Admiralty was now under a First Lord who ought to be a
being a diminution of 50,000/. upon the amount proposed Secretary of State. He had five advisers at the Admiralty
by the late Government. (Hear, hear.) I must ado this andfive other advisers at Somerset-house. The Comp-
remark, however, that if at the close of the summer we troller of. the Victuallieg department, the Surveyor of the
find that the money taken for tLis purpose is not enough, ' Navy, the Accountant-General, and the Storkeeper-Gene-
I shall have no hesitation in coming to the house before ral—theme ere at nernereet-house; and the gallant admiral
Parliament prorogues to ask for other 50,0001 rather than Paid a high compliment to the character and efficiency of
that any injury should accrue to the public service. (Hear, each of them. He urged that they should be allowed to
hear.) The next vote to which I shall refer is that fur perform their ovvn duties and be meda responsible for them.
naval stores. The vote for naval 'stores in 1857-3 was The First Lord of the Admiral 'y and his two naval ad-
-1,395,450/. The vote proposed by the late Government visers should look after the discipline of the fleet and all
for 1858-9 was 1,164,7421. From this increased vote the the public establishments. If he wished to man a fleet of
present Government proposes to deduct 7 e 00)/ (Hear, say ten sail of the line, his course would be sanple enough.
hear.) This sum of 75,0001 is divided into three items, He would write to the Surveyor of the Navy to get ten
Jn the first place, there is 15,0001, which it is proposed to sail of the line ready; to the Comptroller of the Victual-
take off what are canoe general stores, There ie next Eng i epartinent, to get provisions ready for ten sail of the
10,0001. for ships to be built by contract or procured by line; to the Storekeeper-General to provide stores fur ten
purchase. I cannot learn from all the inquiry I can make sail of the line ; and to the Physician Of the net, to pro-
that there is any prospect either of buintieg chips by con- vide medical officers. But the present plan of sending
tract or of purchasing them, so that there scenic to be no Lords of the Admiralty doo'n to Somerset House wet as
necessity for any such sum. (Hear, hear.) The largest much as to tell them that they were all rogues, and that
portion of the amount deducted is 50,0001. for steam ma- they had no confidence in them—(laughter —and there-
chinery. The vote proposee by the late Government for fora they sent a Lord of the Admiralty to look after and
steam machinery was 300,0001. We propose, es I have control them. Let a commission be appointed to inquire
stated, to reduce it by 50,000/ , mating the whole sum into the management of the navy, and if it reported that
250,00. 1. (Hear, hear.) Dur.ine the last six years it was well managed, let it rentlin as it was ; but if it re-
we have expended nearly 4,000,00,4. on steam machinery. ported that it was not well managed, no one would then
Now, I eay, let us by all means expend as much money venture to deny that it was time some change was male.
On steam machinery' as may be really required ; but As an illustration of the operation of the present routine,
I beneve that all the ships now being prepared the gallant admiral related the correspolideec 3to which he
for launching this year may be completed, and yet was subjected on being, the other day, appointed a full
a reduction of 50,009/. be effected. (Hear, hear ) admiral. The Secretary of the Admiralty senthim a writ-
Before quitting thie subject I wish to state th,,t, the Govern ten letter, telling him he WAs an admiral and then sent
went are of 0. Mien that, considering the cnornTous amount hitu a printed letter to tell him ho was an admiral.
of property which the country has acquired by au expendi- (Laughter.) Then came a letter signed by two Lords ef
ture of nearly 4,0 0,000/., including the present vote, we . the Admiralty to toll him that he was an admiral. (lie--
are bound to see that it is properly cared for and that the newel laughter) He then received a letter, telling him to
country receives the fullest benefit from it, It is therefore , hoist his flag, aril subsequently another letter, tell-ilia him
our intention to issue a small cermuis ion of scientific men ; to lower his fl g, with other communications from the
to investigate the condition of the machinery, and to re- 1 Accountant-General and the Admiral at Ports outh.
port upon the best coarse to be taken with regard to it. ! (Laughter.) It was rill nonsense. (Cheers and laualhter ).
Ido not mean to imply that there is any neglect on the i He thought now that there was some chance of taught
part of those who are charged with it. On the c ntrary, I being looked into and amended. Ile was lid to learn
during the short visit I recently made to the d.ockyord ! that there were men enough in the shipicorn
gin. home to
everything I saw was of a nature to convince me thet the l man the Channel fleet, and that if not, the Firsi Lord of
greatest care is taken of it; but Ido not thine that any. the Admiralty would come down to the house to ask for
thing but good can arise from the dockyard officials being I more men. [Sir J. Pakington here gave, across the table,
ma le aware that they are liable to have their conduct oc- some verbel explanaJoe which wo could Lot catch.] Sir
casionally overlooked and supervised, and it is only a wise C. Napier continuo t, by observing that he was glad at all
caution on our parts to institute some inquiry as to the events that we were to have a Channel fleet—(hear, hear,
best means of preserving in an efficient state that which and cheery)—and concluded with an expression of his
Las coat the country so much money. (Hear, hear ) The gratitude to the house for having listened with so much
next vote is vote 11, for new works. The vote in 1857-8 attention to his observations, which he feared were to
was 578,415 e—the late Government proposed to make it many members somewhat tiresome.
for this year 694,615/., but after having carefully gone SirJ. PAKINGTONsaid the hon. and gallant admiral had
through all the items, it app.,ars to us that it may be re- reminded him of an orniesion, . The number of volunteers
(laced to 585,8621, which will be a saving on the original at present enrolled was 5,80); of that number 4,600 had
estimate of 108,756/. When we get to the vote in corn. been actually taken on heart ship----(hear, hear)—and were
mittee I shall be prepare:l to give further explanations in well practised in gunnery. (Gh6ers )
regard to it, but it consists of a great many small items, Sir CHARLES WOODwhose enure observations
, op
and I will only now allude to three of the largest-25,0 Cl.' Ira'e inaudible in the gallery and greeted with loud
for the purchase of land near Devenport, 15,000/. for the cries of " Speak up, speak d%" s ii,i were The right hon. goad
of land near Hasler, and 15,00 1. for the dockyard tleman opposite in the observations he had made regard-
at Malta. lam not prepared to say that these votes may ing the paying off of the continuous service, appeared
not ultimately be lessened, but having inquired very entirely to forget the circumstances antler which that step
closely into the works inj each "se, I do not see any had been taken. He would remind the committee that in
reason why this money should be taken this year, or that Jaimary, 1857, when the estimates were proposed, wo were
any harm will be produced by the postponement of the in a state of the most profound peace with every European
vote. The next vote on which we effect, a reduction i„.ete power, ;me the number of men then proposed to the house
17, for,the transport service. In 1e57-8 207,500/. was voted for the naval establishment was 33,000, which, for a peace
under this head, and the late Government proposed this establishment, certainly could root be said to be small, it
year to take 495,0001. The great difference between these being consitlerabty ;
hi excess of any number ever voted
two sums exists only in appearance and not in reality, for before, except in 1853, when the country was in actual art-
the vote of last year was found to be greatly insufficient, ticipetion of war. In the month of April, 18 7, the num
and 200,C001., I think, ha ito be taken out of a surn voted her of men was aet u
u -tr 7,000 in excess of what the House
for the Chinese ear, and therefore fairly applicable to the of Commons hail sanctioned, it being then 40,000, and it
conveyance of troops to China, to make up the deficiency, would, he thought, be in the ecollecon of the committee
The present government are of opinion that we may riluce that the le.i,lors of all the rt
parties, the present Chan-
this vote by 85,000e-45,000t. on freight, and 40000/. on cellor of the Ezelacquer, anger tahonoble lord the mewl) w for
the saving in coals consequent on that reduction,' Wear° the City of Lorlen, for instance . . strongly urged upon the
euabled to do this by paying off several of the hir d steam- Government the necessity of e omy and retrenchment.
transports employe,' ire China,' the places of which will he Under those
circuaraten-ces it was incumbent upon the
supplied by her Majesty's troopships. The general result, Government,
as sPoodily as possible, to brieg down the
then, is this on vote Bwe propose a reduction of 5),0001, ; number of men to what had been voted by the House of
on vote 10, or 75,000/. ;on vote 11, of 108,756/. ;on vote Commons, which was accordingly drone in the month of
17, of 85,00 M—the whole reduction as compared with the May, by allowing a certain number of continuous service
estimates of the late government being 318,7561. no men who were anxious to the service to do so.
excess of the original estimates over those of let 7-S Iva, Notwithstanding that r l' leave
the excess over
:Feet ii g, however,o
932,6011., not including the packet service, but the retitle- the numbers ye ted NvasP dmains
the
ill about 3,00 , an certainly.
titans which we make bring that excess down to 613,815/. right honourable gentl was in no way ju
. ernan opposite. .
Ihave now stated the general results at which her Ma jest 's fled in regarding the -
ch of faith. Nor was t step as a branch
~. _
Government have arrived as clearly and concisely Y I it, th° 1
as as e ion and gallant admiral supposed, any tits
could without au - e - - 5' aPP-aranc., I hop©, of censuring the ceuregement to the gallant
tine service men themselves •
views of the late Government, but solely with the °eject of for in many cases they to his own knowledge, accepted'
explaining to the committee what I conscientiously believe their discharge upon one aide is
he deck as continuous
to be required by the service of the country. (Hear, hear.) service teen, but re-entered the
vice on tha other at a,
In the office which I have the honour to hold lam assisted lower rate of remuneration tbutsewrithout the condition of
by some of the ablest and roost distinguished officers, at d 10 years' compulsory service 1 which they were in the
I may say for them, as well as for myself, that we have but first-earned cispacity boond 'an )yd
with regard to the pay.
one object in view, to secure economy, to avoid Unnecessary mug. Off the ships, there was a; reduction at the end of the
expenditur©, but, above all, to maintain the naval force of war, under circumstancespromising a lasting and
pro-
England at the poiut which is required for the honour, found peace, so far as it was
ossible at that time to form
m i
t
dignity, and safety of the country. (Hear, hear.) The a judgment, and so tuated Pher Maesty's Government
concluded by moving the first vote, that the could have had no r b pretext for keeping all those
hon. baronet
emote, le pretext
naval force for the year InsB be 59,380 mon and boys. ships in commission. Tire hon. and gallant member urged
Sir CHARLES NAPIER said, that of all the states that had they been kept in commission troops might, hi We
meats he had heard flow First Lords of the Admiealty, he been sF•nt, with great expedition to Inlia: Into that ques.

tion it was not his intention at present to enter, but the
only mede by which ships could be made available for
such unforeseen necessities would be the somewhat costly
plan of keeping up in dine of peace a wer establishment.
If such a policy was desired, or would be sanctioned by the
House of Commons, he felt sure that there would have
been no difficulty either on his own part or on that of the
right hon. gentleman now at the head of the Admiralty, in
keeping up an efficient fleet, and getting the requisite
number of men for the service • but it would involve vast
and endless expense, such as the house would hardly sanc-
tion. As far as the naval branch of the service was con-
cerned, the late Government had maintained a larger peace
establishment than was ever before proposed. He had to
thank the right hon. gentleman for the mention made by
him of the encouraeement given by the late Government
to the coast-guard service and the naval volunteers. It had
always been a matter of great difficulty to maintain such
a body of men in efficient order, as a reserve in times of
emergency, and to this point he hal devoted a great deal
of attention. Such a body of men now existed, and he
could not butregard it as the greatest boon to the count, y.
He did not wish to take the credit of it himself, for
his predecessors were equally entitled to do so. It
had been the subject of much care, and the result
had realised all the expectations he had ever formed
respecting it. (Hear, hear.) During the last year the
coast-guard amounted to ~000 men, of whom 2,30.1 were
civilians. These last had subsequently fallen to 1,600, or,
in other words, there had been au addition of 60) seamen
to that tsrauch of the service, and in the course of the last
year be had inspected a large number of them, and he was
bound to say that a finer or abler body of men he had
never seen in his life. They had a reserve of 5,000 picked
seamen, who served at least five years each, and they
formed the best possible nucleus of a first class naval esta-
blishment. He was sorry to fin I that the right hon. gen-
tleman proposed a reduction of 10,0001. for the additional
accommodation required far these men. It was indispen-
sable that the accommodation should be made complete,
and that the men should be well treated, The naval coast
volunteers formed the cheapest and most efficient branch
of the service, and the results from their incorporation ex-
ceeded all expectation. He regretted to find that an alte-
ration of the votes 8 and 10 was propose I. (Hear, bear.)
It was not necessary, in his opiniou, to reduce by :,0,0.01.
the estimate for wages, and 59,0e0/. for 8t d 9.111. Ship build-
ing purposes. (Hear ) The increase in the number of hands
WAS continue l down to March last, and the reductions
wer • effected slowly. When the number was reduced to
what it had been at the beginning of the war, be thought
he had amply provided for the adequate performance of
all the work, yet he was surprised to tied that from every
yard there was a cry that the work was getting behind
hand, and from no yard was that cry louder than it was
from that of Portsmouth. Under these circumstances, the
reduction now proposed took him by surprise., especially as
it was well understood that if we are to keep our maritime
supremacy, we must maintain our naval establishments in
a thou: ugh state of efficiency. Sailing ships would now he
no longer employed in warfare, and when he was at the
Admiralty, he had been most desirous of gis in.b an impetus
to that portion of the dockyard ri uties. It was for that rea-
son he proposed au increase of 100,0001. iu the last estimate,
and a corresponding increase of 8,000 ruse. Ho was a firm
believer in the alliance, but the effect of their ceasing to
build would be felt five years hence, and who could say
what would be the state of things five years hence? He
was opposed, then, to the reduction of the votes for build-
ing ships, and the purchase of steam machinery. During
the Russian war they built a largo number of ships iu
private yards, which, for vessels ot inferior tonnage, could
be lone more cheaply than in the dockyards. Indeed, the
builders must have lost money by the transaction, for
they did the work without regard to expense, under the
pressor, of a great national emergency. Larger vessels
could not be so advantageou'ly guilt in private yards, for
it would not suit the purposes of many builders to keep
large timber in stock, His objection extended, moreover,
to the mode in which the reduction was to be made. Ia
ordinary times the wages of dockyard labourers were kept
a little below the wages given in private yards, but the
men bad regular employment, and some other advantages,
so that a constant supply of shipwrights was had. Iu
private yards 12s. a oay was often given to shipwrights,
and they could not hope to be able to compete with them.
It was good policy, titer ore, to maintain, during peace as
many men as would do the ordinary work at ordinary pay,
and to employ their resources in increasing both the work
and the pay in time of war. If the right hon. gentleman,
then, expensed that power in time of peace, he might de-
pend upon it that, having made a reduction then, he
would net be able to make the increase during war. He
obj- &fel, likewise, to his reductions to the extent of
15,000/. for hemp and other stores. The right hon. gentle-
mail, he thought, was also unwise in delaying the pur-
sheets of land for dockyard purposes, for by so doing he
would find that he was increasing the ultimate outlay.
He hoped the riebt hon. gentleman would take into consi-
deration the points he had submitted to him, and the only
object of which was to secure the maintenance of the
navy in a state of efficiency.
Mr. H. DRITMAIOND said that the right hon. gentle-
man had spoken of the folly of keeping up the expenses ot
war in time of peace. As a general pr .position, there was
no denying that ; but what was the meaning precisely of
a war establishment and being in a -tate of peace, and
keepiug up your relative position with other nations Y
(Hear-, and laughter.) In all those questions it was not
necessary that there should be a declaration of war. A
gentleman in the country was more likely to quarrel with
a neighbour than with some ono who lived in another
country; and so, if we quarrelled at all, it would most
probably be with a neighbour. Now, who was our nearest
neighbour? Was he a t.ull, slow, heavy, matter-of-fact,
red-tapist sort of gentleman like ourselves or the Germans?
Trey need not fear a sudden attack from the Germans, but
this was a lively gentleman. (Hear, and laughter.) They
.oust judge of his probable future conduct by his east, and
in times past be had acted by coups de main. Would he
make a declaration of war, and then give them a month's
notice to bring their coast-guards on board their ships?
Never. He was much too wise a wan; he understood his
business too well. Now, it ought to be observed that a
maritime force was not an essential condition of any coun-
try but this, France was not a whit weaker for losing Tra-
falgar but if we lost the mastery of the sea, there was an
end of us; or if our ships of war were prevented from
coming from Plymouth to P. rtsmouth, or from Ports.
month to the Them s, it would be all the s true. We must
be ready for action at all times. Yet it was a pity they
world not believe fair-spoken honest people. He believed
the Emperor of the French was above b .are with us, and
over sine he had come to the Throne he had acted toward
us in the most straightforward marine'. He quite agreed
with the right hon. gentleman the late Lord of the Admi-
ralty in many of the reasons be had shown against the re-
duction in the estimates, and concurred with him in the
opinion that any cutting down of our naval defences under
present circumstances was a most unwise economy.
Mr. CORRY, in replying to the various otjections,
regretted that these men had been discharged from the
crevice. Objectiun had been taken to the reduction of
50,0001. iu the wages of the artificers, but he theught his
right hole friend hail been misunderstood on this subject.
There was no chance of the work falling short of its due
amount in the dockyard, but if such contingency was
likely to arise, the Government would ask for an additional
vote. The plan of permitting men to work overtime was
iutended to operate temporarily, not permanently. He wes
much impressed with the Importance of increased activity
in repairing and building ships of the line, more especially
screw ships. Of late years there had been a diminution in
the number of ships of the line ; but the cost of building
these armed vessels was considerably greater than in for-
mer years. He fully agreed in the opinion that the work
in the dockyards ought not to be relaxed. The reduction
in the amount asked for hemp had been made in accord-
ance with the report of the Storekeeper-General.
Sir G. PD.:IIE LL should leave the question of the e•-
niality or informality of these revised votes to be settled
between the present anal the late First Lord of the Athol.
ralty. But he rejeice.i to fin lit announced from the Trea-
sury bench that many of those reforms for which he hail
contended for so many years, were to be carried out. The
pr,sant First Lord bat frankly declared that ho would
listen to complaints, and he had no doubt that the case of
the half-pay officers of Greenwich Hospital would receive
eensideratitn. But he feared that the co .tinuous service
men wer. likely still to labour under a disadvantage The
services of those m
.e„, raised into importance by his friend
Sir G. Berkeley, had been much misunderstood. These
men, on the cessation of the Crimean war, had entered the
merchant service with the consent of the Admiralty, but
when they again tried to enter the royal navy they wets,
met with all kinds of difficnlties. The First Lord had
8' e ken of the difficulty of raising men in Portsmouth.
(i.No, no," from Sir J. Paitington.) The real difficulty
3y in the standard of height set up. All our sailors did
not like to servo for five cr ten years, and this operated
prejudicially to the raising of men. On the subject of the
vote for our cruisers on the coasts of Cube and Africa lie
a hope that as increased sums on this account
were asked, an assurance would be given that what was
done was done with a view to the extinction of the abo
minable trade in slaves. He had long urged that gur
boats should supersede the ships of large draught, whir
could not navigate some of these waters. The honourab.
and gallant admiral also contended for the necessity ,
limiting the Board of Admiralty to naval men.
Mr. BENTINCK Lad listened to the speech of the Firs
Lord with considerable pleasure, believing it to be the file
indication that improvement was to take place in the ac
ministration of the navy. He regretted that reduction
likely to affect our naval efficiency were in coots 1.1 flatiOr
' although the Government had frankly stated that thee.
reductions would not be persisted in if they were fount
prejudicial. He rejoiced to hear that for the future w,
ought to have an efficient squadron. (Haar, hear.) Be
this country, if it deserved its reputation, ought fo ba
prepared for emergencies. As a matter of counnet cis
prudence he aske.t whether it would not be wise to pro
vide against even the c. mtingency of the lauding of foreigt
troops on our shores. (Hear.) The-late First Lord noe
spoke of the necessity of our keeping up our naval de-
fences, but he did not think that the right hon. gentlernao's
Administration had acted up to tbia newly-born zeal.
With regard to the means of raising men, he feared they
would fail if the continuous service system were aban-
doned. He rejoiced that the present deiraa, had not been
defaced by any OD oof those absurd cries for economy which
were rife sown years ago. He had no hesitation in saying
that owing to the previous parsimony, 30,( 00,000/. or
40,100,0)01. had been wasted in the course of the Russian
war. But h shoul I despair of an efficient administration
of naval affairs so long as the Board of Admiralty was the
focus of political patronage, and civilians ruled its destinies.
Admiral WALCOTT sincerely hoped that the reductions
propos d might not impair tbo service, and relied on the
promise of tide First Lord, that he would proceed with
caution; but he coul.l not but think that retrenchment at
this moment was unwise. It would be well for the future to
adapt our naval strength to that which might be opposed to
us, but this could not be done by Luilding only one class of
ships. He had no ft ar of invasion. (Hear, hear.) The
Thames alone would supply us with men to line our southern
coast to meet the invader if he came. (Hear, hear.) Still a
state of preparation was the best safeguard against war.
(Hear, hear.) He implored the house to maintain an efficient
navy, at order to avoid any possible disaster.
Lord CLARENCE PAGET thought it would be wise for
the Government to pause in the construction of enormous
battle ships. He did not believe the French were acting in
the constructim of ships. ['hey were waiting to see what
we should do. He did rat believe that in any future wars
lino-of-battle ships would take any prominent part. He be-
lieved that in ten years there would be no three-deckers, and
t •erefore he thought a wasteful expenditure to go on build-
ing such , hips, lie recomtneuded the ristit hon. gentleman
to call the naval officers together, and consult them as to the
best means of constructing ships, and what ships shout f be
sOstituted for line-of-battle ships. There was a fallacy at
the Admiralty, that the navy did not desire to carry troops.
Why that was a libel on the navy. They considered it a
great honour to carry troops. What was required Was an
improved construction of ships. The ,hi. s ought to be con
strutted to carry sixteen (la's's' coals and six months' pro-
visions for 500 men, and such ships could be constructed.
WWI regard to manning the navy, ho thought that when men
were sent home to their friends after the return of a ship to
port they should be taken back to that ship after the expira-
tion of their leave of absence, and not sent to str oige ships,
whore they became what the tailors called s,tupidiNale

ries." The men ought to feel that their ship was their home.
The men and officer in the navy should he like the men and
officers in a regiment. He was of opinion that it would be
wi e to introduce the competitive system into the navy with
rega d to cadets.
Lord PALMERSTON said he entirely agreed in the great
importance of having an efficient naval service. It was ab-
solutely necessary for our security that our navy should be
in an efficient condition. There were three great naval powers
—France, Russia, and the United States—all of them almost
without colonial establishments—all of them so far indepen-
dent of naval war, that eeen naval roversesdid not materially
affect them ; while on the other hand, our insular position
made naval protection essential for our security, and we had
vast colonial possessions scattered over the face of the globe,
all which required naval protection for their defence. In
coosiderine, however, what should be the application of the
funds which parliament might place at the disposal of the
government for naval purposes, it seemed to him that, be-
tween the provi ing of a large number of men, and the
providing of what might, be called the materials of , efenec,
preference should be given in ordinary tines, to the latter
over the former of those demands. In periods when there
was no immediate danger, if the amount of our shipping and
the state of our dockyards and stores was not such as it
ought to be, it was a more wise and prudent application of
the funds at the d sposal of government to apply them in
building ships, in organising dockyards, and in filling them
with stores, rather than in having a greater number of
men actually employed. And the reason was obvious.
We were not ,t all the more secure next year in consequence
of havieg had a greater number of sailors employed this
year ; but we were moi e secure next year if in the present
year we increased the number of our ships, and placed
onr dockyards and stores in a better and more efficient
condition. That was the pried. le on ehich the late Govern-
ment ha i acted. Last year, when the war with Russia was
over, there was a great dem ind, not only iu that house, but
throughout the country, for the cessatio i of the war income
tax. That rendered it necessary for the Government to re-
duce the aeiount applicable to the war services ; and Sir
Charles Wood had properly judged that it was better to re-
duce the number of mea actually employed, and to go on
with those other applications of public money to which he
had alluded. Therefore, when they were told that it was an
unwise and imps udent act to reduce the number of men last
year, he said that it was the inevitable result of Government
acting in deference to the opinion of Parliament and of the
country. It had been said that a prime minister ought to
come down to that house and say that he required a certain
amount of money to be given for naval purposes. It was all
very well for a minister to hold hat lan uage ; but when it
was the opinion of Parliament and the country that certain
taxes ehould cease, it was vain for Government to urge their
continuance, for no satisfactory resalt would be attained.
On the contrary, it was the duty of a Government to submit
to the opinion of Parliament and the country, and make the
most prudent application of the monies placed at their dis-
posal. Applying that principle to the clam the present Go-
vernment was about to adopt, he confessed he thou ;lit that
that course was not the wisest and most prudent for the iete-
rests of the country, They were right in saying that there ought
to be a Channel fleet, and that there ought to be the number of
men which they proposed. But the proposed reductions iu
the amount of ship building, of stores to be provided, and
of improvements and t nlargemeuts in the dockyards,
were imprudent reductions. He could not conceive that
there could be any financial necessity for those reductions ;
because it was impossible to imagine, when the Chancellor
of the Exchequer produced his budget, that that difference
in the xpenditure could make any material difference in the
means by which he might provide for' the supplies of the
year. The last speaker had said that the building of line-of-
battle ships was an antiquated prejudice. But until other
nations had abandoned that prejudice, it could not be called
antiquated ; and it would be very imprudent in this country
to act on another principle, and not provide an adequate sup-
ply of liue-of-battle ships when France and Russia were
strengthening their fleet with ships of that descriptioa. rho
noble lord s id ho was informed by naval officers in France
that they considered line-of-battle shies useless, and that it
was much better to have smaller vessels. He was not sure
that opinions cowing from the naval service of other coun-
tries were exactly the opinions by which the government of
the country ought to be guided. (Hear, and laughter.) Per-
haps, if the noble lord had had to advise the French Admi-
ralty, he might have said,—`• Your government ought not to
increase your line-of-battle ships; gunboats are tle- things
you want. Our government may pursue a different course,
but it is better for you to have few line-of-battle ships, or
none at all." (Laughter.) As long as other naval powers
employed an increasing ; umber of line-of-battle ships, it
was essential that we should provide ourselves with ships
of that description. It might be quite true, as ho stated,
that though great improvements had been made of late
years in the construction of ships, greater still remained to
be made, mere especially in the points to which he ad-
verted, the construction of the prows of ships and those lines
which would best cut the eat r. (Hear, hear.) No doubt
those improvements might be made ; but he hoped the Go-
vernment would not be led away, even by the opinion of the
noble lord, to discontinue the provision of line-of-battle ships
adequate to cope with those provided by other nations.
They knew that the French Government were taking measures
which in a few years would give them a fleet of screw line-of.
battle ships very little in erior to those we should have at the
same time -(hear, hear)—also that the Russian Government
were constructing as fast as they could a formidable number
of line-of-battle ships. It would be extremely imprudent in
this c suntry to lay aside the idea of augmenting the very in-
adequate number of line-of-battle ships which we now had.
The application of the pr, polling screw as the moving power
had rendered it necessary to rebuild in a manner the whole
fleet of this con try ; and the expense of rebuilding a screw
ship of war, as well as of working it, was much more than
that which attached to sailing vessels. He therefor., hoped
that the Government would reconsider the course which they
.tended to pursue. The First Lord had stated that if it
were found in the course of the session that suer • money was
required for these purposes, ho would come down to Par-
liament with a supplementary estimate. But when the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had submitted his budget, and
made his financial arrangements, it would be exceedingly in-
convenient if, at a later period of the session, any department
should e4,,,,e clown to Parliament with an estimate for services
which had not been provided for by the Chancellor of the Re.
chequer. It ev..s well known to those who had attended to
the matter, that our dockyards were inconveniently small.
Cherbourg alone was as large as many of our dockyar Is taken
together. (Bear. The increased length of ships consequent
upon the application of the •c. ew, had been such that very
few of our dockyards would hold the large line- tliattle ships
that were built. It was, therefore, very nece sary to increase
their size. We required factories for steam machinery, be-
cause the machinery by which the screw was driven wee liable
to perpetual accidents, and unless we had the means of re-
pairing losses, and supplying new ships with steam machinery,
it was in vain to build the ships. Tho right hon. gentleman
had stated that ships were of no use without men. That was
perfectly true ; but men were of no use without ships —(hear)
—although risen could be procured in a much shorter time
than that in which it was possible to build ships. The most
pressing and urgent application of funds to the naval Service
must be in providing those things which, when once provide I,
remait ed, rather than in employing men, who after the year
was over did not add to our strength unless the same number
were again voted. There was a power to take land by jurf
assessment for the purposes of military defences, but there
was no such power for land taken for dockyards ; and if they
gale up the purchases that had been made, at a future time
they might n t be able to have them at all, or only at a very
enhanced price. He therefore considered that the Government
had taken au injudicious course in the reductions they had
made on these estimates; they would bett• r consult the inte-
rests of the country by proposing them iu their original form.
Sir JAMES. ELPHINSTONE thought the principle of
steam propulsion of ships of war at present in its infancy.
He had observed that up to a certain point of speed they
could supply the propulsion at a comp ratively small cost ;
but to gain a single knot of increased speed would necessi-
tate an increase of double the expenditure. This was a sub-
ject, therefore, that required close inquiry. He considered
the gunboats were a complete failure, as they would neither
sail nor steam. They ought to have been mort trboats. If
they had been properly constructed they migh. have been
new employed on the coast of Africa.
Sir J. PAKINGTON bad only a few words to say in reply.
It was with sincere pleasure he had listened to the observa-
tions of the noble lord the m tuber for Sandwich, and being
aware of the high standing of the noble lord in his profession,
he would give th • utmost weight to all his suggestions. The
noble lord'complaieed that the Diadem c ,uld only carry four
days' coal. He beloved she could carry six eays' coal, but
ho must remind the noble. lord it .+as not desirable that,these
yes els should proceed at full power The screw was intended
to be only auxiliary except on pressing emergencies. Then
the noble lord said they ought not to go on building line-of-
battle ships He could not agree with him in the , opini•.,n.
As long as line-of-battle ships of great s eam power were built
by other n .tions, i would not be wise in England to aban-
don them altogether. (Hear, hear.) The wisest coarse was
to build as many as were suffieieet for their own protection,
but not to enter into a race of competition with other countries.
That would be most unwise. Let us take care of ourselves,
and if we set the example of reduction, ho believed that
m.: other nations would follow in the same course. He had not
ch ' intended to advert to the question of the comparative forces
tie in England and France, and should have been sorry to ay
of one word that would give rise to the idea that the Geyer,-
meet entertained the slightest feeling of alarm. They felt
-st th tat this moment, as at ether moments, England ought to
lit be prepared, and ought to be adequately protected ; but then
d. nothing could be more erroneous than to inspire a feeling of
DR general alarm. Therefore, he honfessed he had not deemed
it desirable to enter into the comparison w ich the right
se hon. baronet opposite had done. As he had chosen to do so,
however, he (Sir J. Pakington) was bound to say that the
,e t hon. gentleman's statement was not perfectly correct.
it The right hon. gentleman had st-te , that wo possessed but
,e two line-of-battle ships more than the French, and this was
ie strictly true if we took the ships that were ae ually- built,
y.. ,and altogether excluded what were called the block-s' ips.
n But although he quite agreed that those block.3hips ought to
'• be superseded as soon as possible by better ones, and that
they were not ships which he could wish to send out to
• compete with the navy of other countries, still we could not
altogether exclude them from our calculations. Out of these
nine block ships, four or five were cert iuly in very good
condition. They did good service during the Russian
wir in the' Baltic. They were two-deck ships, of 60
guns each, and he thought that in a calculation of this
. kind it would be decidedly wrong to exclude them ; but they
would be excluded altogether if it were asserted that we had
only two line-of-battle ships more than the French. Now, if
we did that which we were fully entitled to do—namely, in-
clude the ships building as well as the ships afloat, still ex-
cluding tho block-ships, the difference between Fraece and
England was much more in our favour than the right hon.
gentleman had stated. But the right hon. gentleman had
fallen into another error. He had also stated that the French
ships were more powerful than ours. It was true that the
aggregate horse-power of the French steamboats was greater
than our own • but there was another mode of comparison
which was perhaps more conclusive that that. It was to
done, compareit wouldthe a
be found
ram n t s
of
that thet
the
owo numberfleets
gan
a d
athis h we ere
be-
lieved also the weight of the guns, but undoubtedly the num-
m
ber of the guns in the English fleet was very much greater
than that in the French fleet, and far beyond the relative ra-
portion iu the number of ships. The same held good in re-
spect of the frigates. Our superiority over the French navy
in frigates was still more decided than in line-of-battle ships
(Hear.) He must now be allowed to say a few words with re-
gard to the statement which bad fallen from the right hon.
gentleman (Sir C. Wood), and the noble lord the member
for Tiverton, as to the reduction proposed to be made in
vote 8. The noble lord had made use of the expression that
the Government were about to suspend—to put an end to—
the building of ships ; and the right lion. gentleman had held
very much the same language.' Now, that was a perfectly
er, °aeons view of the propus ils made by her Majesty's Go-
vernmeut. They had no such intention. On the contrary,
their proposals would, for the next six months, carry on the
dockyard establishments upon precisely the ame footing
that they had been 'placed by the late government. The only
difference w s, that the present government proposed to effect
chat object by continuing theiameperwa ent establishments
and taking 50.000/. fen expend ture in hired labour, not in
task and job work. The right hon. gentleman seemed to
think that it was intend d to spend the money in task and
job-work. Not-at all. It was pr. posed to spend it iu hired
la,our. Why, what w.ts the courso which the righ. hon. gen-
tleman himself hail aci4tecif When wo were in the height e 0 f

the Russian war in 1855, 1856, 1857, the late government did
not come down with a proposal of 12.000 men for the dock-
yards ; on the contrary, they contented themselves with the
very same establish ant wnieh t ey now proposed. How did
they make up the difference By hired lab ur. That was the
resource to which the right hon. gentleman himse:f had
turned ; and it was the res uree to which the present govern-
ment proposed to turn, in order to meet an accidental pres-
sure. If itproved to be an accidental pressure, they would be
justified in the course they had adopted ; if it did not then
the won .d be free to take the course which he had indicated
of coming down t, Parliament later in the session, and asking
for an increase of the vote. He hoped and believed there
would be no such necessity ; but if the necessity did arise, he
did not think it would be for the noble lord to object to it,
considering that it was the c ur e which his own go-
vernment had taken last year, when they were obliged to
come down at the end of the session and apply to Parliament
for an additional grant of 310 men. (Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to the question of steam machinery, he utterly denied
that the Government were open to the slightest charge of
neglecting our national def noes He had not propostd any
reductions without first making the most careful inquiries,
and really ascertaining that he 50,000/. was not required for
the efficiency of the service ; that the grant he proposed to
take would be enough to cover all necessary expenditure, pro.
vide all the engines for the ships about to be launched, and
still leave a margin—(hear' hear) —and he thought ho should
no be justified in asking Parliament for more money than
the necessity required. (Hear, hear.) The only point that
remained to be noticed was the extension of the dockyards.
The item of 15,00;)l. for the purchase of land for naval bar-
racks at Gosport, ha thought, might be postponed, seeing
that the Government had already a qu ntity of land there
whic had not yet be n made any Lee of. The noble lord
was well aware that the state of the Rutile finances was net
such as to justify him in asking other than necessary votes.
These votes he did not consider to be necessary at present,
and therefore he had only done his duty in pos poning them.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir CHARLES Vf,)OD, in explanation, said that the state.
ment which he ha.l made in reference to the " block " ships
ia the service was, that although not as efficient ys the line of
battle shies, they were still perfectly good and serviceable
ships. Ho held in his hand a statement prepared for him,
showing that the number of ships afloat of screw line of
battle ships were 25 for England, and 23 for France ; and
that the number of ships of the line afloat were for England
42 and for France 10.
Mr. HORSHAM said the right hon. baronet the First ford
of t •e Admiralty began his statement that evening by saying
that he adopted the statements of the late Government ; and
he (Mr. Horsman) confessed he was glad the house had, in
some respects, heard so encouraging a statement from the
right hon. baronet. It was, however, a serious reflection,
when they were told that, nAwithstanding their boasted
pride of having the largest navy in the world, they yet had
not the command of the sea.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had
been made to France, and he hoped that the existing Go-
vernment of that country would long continue ; but whether
it continue or not, it was necessary that the, naval power of
this coenti7 should be in a condition, as the right hon. baronet had said, to be prepared for any emergency —(Hear, hear )
They knew that in the days of the French Republic, a ,
French admiral had asked for a fleet that he might invade
England. They were now in France making the; greatest
naval progress and preparations; and they could not forget
in this country that Napoleon the First had said he would not ask more than forty-eight hours command of the fleet in the
Channel, He .(Mr. Horsman) did not say that that was
cause for alarm, but he must say that it ought to operate as a
suggestion for precautions on the part of her Majesty's Go-
vernment, and he begged to add that there w,s much in the
statement of the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the
Admiralty that night, of which he entirely approved.
Mr. KINNAIRD agreed in the necessity of being prep,red
but there was one item in the v tee to which he thought the
attention of the Committee ought to be directed, and that
was the halt-pay list. That list hung as a dead weight upon
the resources of the nation, and some means ought, in his
opinion, to be devised to place it on a more satisfactory footing
in rel tion to the resources and interests of the country.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the right hon. baronet the First Lord
of the Admiralty had thrown r dicule upon the statements
made by him that evening ; but he was prepared to substan.
tiate all that he had expressed on the subject.
The question was then put, and the vote for 59,380 men
was agreed to.
A sum of 1,401,599/ towards completing the charges
necessary for defraying the wages to seamen was next
agreed to
577,3671. for completing the charges necessary for the
seamen and marines, was, after a few words from Mr. WIL.
LIAMS, also agreed to; as was also a sum of 70,4391. for completing the sum necess try for the payment of officers,
The CHAIRMAN, on the suggestion of Mr. WYKEEEAM
MARTIN, outained leave to report progress, and to sit again.
The House resumed

THE BUDGET.
In reply to Lord PALMERSTON,
Mr DISRAELI said it was the intention of the Government
to proceed with the navy esti Gates on niday, and, if possible
they would also proceed with the army estimates the same
evening ; but at all events the budget would be brought on
OIL Monday.
THE CUSTOM'S DUTIES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
OATHS BILL.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL this bill waft
re td a third time.
CASHEL ELECTION.
Cn the motion of Mr. BAGWELL, the adjourned debate
on this subject was ordered to be discharged.
THE LOAN SOCIETIES BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
Mr. HENLEY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to effect an
exchinge between the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital
and the Governor and Company of Chelsea Waterworks, of
lands in the parishes of St. George's, Hanover-square, and
St. Margaret's, Westminster.
The bill was read a first time.
The House then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.

PABLIAMENTAAY DIVISION.

OUSE OF CO VI MONS—Aram 12.
SPPLY.
Order for Committee read; motion made, and question
proposed, " That the Speaker do now leave the chair :"
Amendment proposed, to leave oat the word " That".to
the end of the question, in order to and the words “the
army and navy estimates be referred to a select commit.
tee," instead thereof : Question put, " That the 'words
proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The
house divided—Ayes, 161; Noes, 24.
1 Adderley, C. B. AYES-161. ,
' Forester, Col. Moffat, G.
I Bantle, H. Frazer, Sir W. Mowbray, J. R.
1 BAIL E Gard. It. Naas, Loru
' Baring, A. Gaskell, J.
.Napier, Sir rt.
Baring, T. Gavin, Major Newport, Viscount
haring, T. G. Ginrd, Earl of Nisbet, R. P.
Bernard, T. Gilpin, Col. 11. Packe, C.
Beaumont, W. Gladstone, W. Paget, Lord C.
Beecrott, G. Glyn, G. Pakington, Sir
Bennet, Capt. P. Glyn, G. Palmer, It. J.
Bentinck, U.
Black, Adam Gregory, W. Pahnerston, Viscount
Bonham-Carter Grenfell, C. P. Patten, Col.
Bovill ,J. Grey, R. Pechell, Sir G. .
, W. Griffith, C. Peel, Gen.
Brand, H. B. re,BramleNfoor J. Hall, Sir Benjamin Peyensey, Viscount
Bridges,
Hamilton, Lord Claud Proby, G.
Brown,Sir B. Hamilton, G. A. Puller, Christopher
Bruc W.
major Hamilton, Capt. Ridley, George
Bucke,. Hankey, T. Robertson, P.
BYng ley, Gen..
U. C. Harcourt, G. G. Russell, Lwd J.
' G Hardcast.e, Joseph Rust, James
Caird, J.
Hardy, G. Scholetleld, W.
Campbell, R. Hay, Lord John Sclater, George
Carden, Sir It. W. Hay ter, W Scott, Major
Cartwright, H. Headlam, T. Shelley-, Sir J.
Zia vendish, W.
Claik J. Henley, J. Smith, J. A.
Close, ,
AL
HoAgsoo K. Smith, Sir F.
Co
Holford, 'R. Spooner, R.
Codrin bbold
ton, J. C Dope, xi lexander Stanhope, J.
, Gen. Horsrnan, E. Stanley,
Colin, T. Hotham, Lord
Stuart, Coionel
Lord
Con ngham, Lord F. Inglis, 'John sturt, U.
Corry, H. V. L. Jervoise, Sir J.
Thompson,
it ()ramrod,mpson, E. ii. J. Johnston H. B. Trelawny, sir J.
Dalglish, R. Kinglake, A. Vane, Lord H.
Davie, Sir H. R. F. Ktnnaird, A. Vanslt tart, W.
Diliwyn, L. L. Knatchbull, W. Verner, Sir W.
Disraeli, B. Knatchhull-Haguessen Verney, Sir H.
Dod, J. Knox, Col. B. W. Waddington, H. -
Dodson, J. Lennox, Lord H. G. Walcott, Admiral
Drummond, H. Leslie, C. f. Walpole. S.
Buncombe, A. Liddell, H. G. W
ickham, John
Egerton, Vi, Lindsay, W. Wickham, 11.
Eicho, Lord Lovaine, Lord Williams, S.r W.
Ellice, E.
Lowe, it. Willoughby, Sir IL
Elphinstone, Sir J. Lygon, Hon. F. Wise, J.
Enalyn, Viscount Macarthy, Alex. Wood, Sir C.
Estcourt, T. Macaulay, Kenneth Woods, Henry
F." 114, Crum M'Clintock, John Wynne, J. A.
Farqu.har, Sir M.
Fellowes, E Matins, Richard Yorke, E.
B. Mangles, R. D.
Fitzgerald, W. R. S. Mangles. C num.
Fitzgerald, J. Manners, Lord .1. Fitzroy, rienry Melgu
Forde, Colonel nd, Lord Jolliffe, Sir W.
MiLer, Taverner Whitmore. li.
NOES-2i. •
Boweßyr. G. Harris, J. D. Sheridan, H. B.
, J.
33
Ingram, H. Smith, J. B.
Cox, W. Langton, H. G. Smith A.
Cn ,
tslley. F. i ocke, Julio Syk
banns. M. Morris, D. Tit es, Colonel
e, W. Ewart, J.
.blicoll, D. White, James
i'ox W. I. O'Donoghoe, The
Gilpin, C. Pease, Henry Williams. W.
TELLS'S
Gregson, Samuel Roebuck, J. Kershaw, J.

[ADVERTISEMENT.]—HoIIoway's. Pillo an admirable
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their efficacy in curiug bile, indigestion, flatulency, sick
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They invigorate the body, strengthen the faculties of the
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—Sold by all druggists, and at Professor Holloway's
Establishment 244, Strand, London.

•
BIRTHS.
Cecm—On the 11th inst., at 9, Park-cresceut, Lady Robert
Cecil, of a daughter.

DELAmenr—On the 6th inst., at St. Truchand, Brittany, the
wife of Colonel C. H. De'amain, C. 8., of a son.
Nlco On the 10th inst., at 5,. Hyde-park-terrace, Mrs.
Dyce Nicol, of a son.
SHAhaSrRP—On the 11th inst., at Richmond, the wife of John
Cles Sharpe, Esq., of Pleet-street, London, banker, of
a SOU.

MARRIAGES.
HARRIS—SUTHERLAND—On the 10th inst., at St. Paurs,Torkft
place, Edinburgh, Joseph Harris, Esq., of Bishoprgats
Churchyard, LoLdon soliclor, to Alexandrina, only stir-
viving child of the late Alexander Sutherland, Esq., of
Edinburgh.
YuLa-13ssr —At St. Martin's-in the.F (Ada, Major-Genera/
Yule, Royal Engineer., to the Hon. Ann Louisa Best, only
daughter of Lord Wynford.

DEATH S.
Mimi:m-0n the 10th inst., Joseph Addison, Esq., of Dean's
Yard, Westminster, barrister-at-lavr, and Bencher of the
Inner Temple.
BEALE—In July last, at Lucknow, from a wound received on
the 11th, Mr. Benson Wood Beale, the eldest sou of Mrs.
th Bealsamee, 1, IL:ch
ti
Woomich-common. Nearly at
children. e , died Mr. B. W. Beale's wife and his two
.
DUNNING—On t e 10th inst., Joseph Dunning, Esq., Elm-
wood Lodge, Leeds, aged 66.
JONES -On the 10th inst., at 7, Connaught-square, Hy le.
park, Wiliam, Jones, Esq.
MumaN—On the 11th inst., at. Pinner-grove, Arthur Henry,
youngest son of Sir W. Milman, Bart., aged 3.

_ _ _
0/4DoN Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG,
of No. 112, Strand. Printer, at The Sun Office, No.
112, Strand, in the Precinct of-the Savoy, in the eoUcty
of Afidd!eser, Tuesday, April 13, 1858.