The Sun.
London, England, 1804-06-15 00:00:00

ADDITIONAL FORCE DEFENCE BILL.

The CHANcELLoR of the ExcHEQuEit moved
the Order of the Day for taking the Bill into fur-
ther consideration, and that it be re-committed to a
Comenitttee of the whale House. He added, prevLus
to the SPEAKER'S leaving the Chair, that the distil-
*bution of this Force was to be proportioned in the
same manner as that of the Army of Reserve, ac-.
cording to the number of persons of military age in
each County, on the original principle of the diitri-
hution of the Militia. That 5.1.,000 men, which
were to be raised for England under this Aft, would
therefore be distributed in the same proportion as
the 40,000 Militia which was still to be kept up.
On the Clause for transferring to this Force the
men due by the and the Army of Reserve,
Mr. JOHNSTONE rose, and said, he objetted
to the Clause alluded'to, not from his being one of
those who disapproved of the Bill in Iwo, from the
circumstances under which the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. PITT) had come into office, but because
he thought the Bill totally nugatory, inadequate
to the objects i‘n view,
.and unworthy of the great
talents which that Right Hon. Gentleman' possess.'
ed. It commanded the people to do that which it
was impossible they could be able to do; it com-
manded them to raise a certain number of men
forthwith. He wished Gentlemen to advert to what
had taken place in regard to the Army of Re-
serve. That body of men were nearly 9000 defi-
cient of their number. A great part of that defi.
ciency originated in the Counties of Middlesex,
Surrey, Kent, and Essex ; and he contended, that it
arose not from any want of zeal on the part of the
Parishes to complete their numbers, they having
used every possible exertion. If Parishes were not
able to raise men, by granting Bounties of 401. or
501. how was it possible that the House should flat..
ter itself that they would be enabled to raise them
by the low Bounties suggested by that Bill I What-
ever influence the Parish Officers possessed, it was
only to be found in the internal parts of the Coun-
try. It was impossible to suppose that Parish Offi.
cers, or Church-Wardens could be instrumental in
raising men in the City of London, while in the
County of Middlesex alone, there was actually a
deficiency of 1800 men for the Army of Reserve ;
a circumstance which, he thought, arose from so
many of the inhabitants not having a fixed and per-
manent residence when the Ballots took place.—
There could not be any possible remedy in that par-
ticular, while at the same time the short space of 40
days, after the first meeting of the Lieutenancy,
was all that was allowed to raise the men : that was
a circumstance which increased the hardship in an
excessive degree, by exposing Parishes to a fine of
201. for each deficiency. He suggested, therefore,
that some further alteration should be made as to
those particulars.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, he drew perfeetly opposite conclusions from
those of the Hon. Gentleman with resped to the
word " forthwith." Although that word.was used
in that particular Clause, yet the time and manner
in which the men were to be raised, was regulated
by the subsequent Clauses. It ought to have been
considered, whether or not the chance of raising
men was increased or diminished. It would some..
what surprize the House to understand, that the ex-
perience they had had of the Army of Reserve was
exceedingly favourable towards the accomplishment
of what was proposed by this Bill. The total number
required by the late Aa. of Parliament alluded to,
was between 33,0D0 and 3.4,000 men. The num-
ber at-Wally raised since that Att passed, during last
Session, had been 31,758 men. There were, there.
fore, only about zOOO deficient of the intended
number of the Army of Reserve in England. Was
there then any other mode which could be adopted
for the purpose of raising men with greater expedi-
tion ? That deficiency arose from various causes.—
There were 175 z men discharged as unfit for the •
service, and 590 had died, which was only a pro-
portion of two men in every hundred, which did
not equal the ordinary bills of mortality... The re..
mainder of the deficiency arose from desertion,
owing to the enormous competition and high boon.
ties. The fundamental object of the Bill was to de-
stroy high bounties, to make the men more effec-
tive, and to remedy the difficulties which had oc.'
curred in the execution of the Army of Reserve Att.
Although particular distrias, such as London and
Middlebex, &c. might require particular local pro-
visions, it did not argue that the means of the
Country in general were not sufficient far the ac.
complishment of this Act. As to the shortness of
the time allowed for that purpose, it was certainly
necessary and desirable to execute the object as
soon as possible ; and it was well known, that in
every' piece of business, the fixing of a precise
and short period of time was attended with consi-
derable advantages in point of aaivity and exertion,
while a long one proved the cause of much listlis-
ness and supineness.

Mr. JOHNSTONE said, he really was inclined
to think that the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last had been endeavouring to pay a handsome pane-
gyric to a Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. ADDING.
Torsi) near him, by the favourable account he had
given of the Army of Reserve A. What he (Mr.
joHNsToNO had intended to express was, his doubt.
fulness how it could be possible to raise such a num-
ber of men at a bounty of seven guineas, while in
the space of five months there had only been an in-
crease to the Army of Reserve of Soo men, when
large bounties were granted.
Mr. WINDHAM s;iid, he could not rightly.un.e
derstand why the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
PITT) appeared thus to be taking all the benefits
of the Army of Reserve Aft, notwithstanding
his former sentiments regarding it. It put him in
mind of the Ancit rat Britons, who thought they suc-
ceeded to all the virrocs of the enemy they had kill-
-4A Lugh to the high bounties, he ob-
served, that if the memory of them could be entirely
done away, the present measures might have a
greater influence. It was necessary, theref re, to
consider whit c!;',7.fi the remembrince of nigh b
ties thigh ',
!,tub.ible tittle whic!: the
aod the

men could be raised, ere fines were imposed for de-
linquency. It was impossible to do away that ob-
jedion :—the Army of Reserve Bill was totally in.
applicable to this one' which was new, and of Which
we had had no experience. The principles of the
one were totally different from those of the other,
and therefore it was improper to argue from what
,had been done, while we were considering what was
to be done. In regard to the Army of Reserve, it
- was a fad, that the Recruiting Officers were often
obliged to give way, because they could not get men ;
they were forced to take those who had been rejea.
ed by the Regiments of the Line. It was not there-
fore to be argued that the men raised were all"good
who were not rejefted, because there had been a
great number of them whom no Officer would have
taken, had he found means to procure better. As
to the deaths which had occurred amongst them,
there was no proportion which, under all the cir-
cumstanCes, could bear a comparison with the Or-
dinary Bills of Nlortality. The' inference to be
drawn from the statement made by the Right Hon.
Gentleman, would be, that men procured in such
a manner as they had been, the most infamous, the
most diseased, and most debauched classes of people,
were completely cured ; and that a Bounty of pl.
or +oh 'to people of that description was favourable
to human life. It was one of the.objeaions to this
Bill, that Crimps must be had recourse to, as one of
the modes to form a completion of the Force pro-
posed to he raised.
Mr. JEKYLL objeaed to the interference of
the Inspe&or with that ancient (Ace, the Deputy_
Lieutenant, so well known in this Country in the
early commission of array. This person is intro-
duced to controul the Deputy-Lieutenant, who had
been a Military Officer. The name of a Military
Inspector was improperly applied ; he ought to be
distinguished under the title of a Military Inqui-
sitor.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that the
Hon. Gentleman was mistaken, as the Inspedor was
assigned no judicial fundions ; those remained en-
tire with the Deputy-Lieutenant. The objea of
the Inspector was not to interfere and to obstrut,
but to relieve the Deputy-Lieutenant in the dis-
charge of a difficult duty.
Sir W. YOUNG observed, that this Inspe6lor
was to be sent down to intrude himself at the table
of business, in his charaEer as an Officer of the
Crown, and yet he is said not to possess any con.
troul. He is ereded or degraded into the charader
of a spy and an informer, and yet, it is said, he is
to have no influence on their proceedings.
Mr. ROSE said, that he had long had the honour
of ailing in the capacity of Deputy-Lieutenant, and
instead of finding any Officer of this description to
interfere, he considered they ever accelerated the
business of the Public ; and whether in the characters
of Adjutants-General, or of Inspetors, he had been
always happy to receive their assistance.
Lord TEMPLE rose to declare, that of all the
Clauses of the present objeaionable Bill, there was
none more so than that now under consideration.
The Deputy-Lieutenants were obliged to have a
very important qualification from the County in
which they aded ; the misfortune was, that a ser-
jeant, a corporal, or a private, in the charader of
Inspedor-General, might be obtruded upon them,
and upon the County, without any such qualification.
The Deputy-Lieutenant would not be very much
inclined to encourage such an intruder, and if this
were the only impolitic Clause, the error was so
gross, and the evil so prominent, that it was suffi-
cient to condemn the whole of the Bill.

The CHANCELLOR tf the EXCHEQUER
was not surprised that the Noble Lord had stated so
strongly his objection to this particular Clause, and
he would do him the justice to say, that he would
preserve the same consistency in his opposition to
the whole contents of the Bill. A Learned Gentle-
man (Mr. JEKYLL), had introduced into his speech
some ancient lore from the British Annals, which
had little application to the present subjeCt. Next,
the Learned and Hon. Gentleman introduced a sort
of epigramatic wit, in an allusion to military In-
speetors, and Ecclesiastical Inquisitors. He was al_
. ways happy to see this pleasing talent exercised in
a private and familiar intercourse, but it was, per-
haps, less suited to the gravity and dignity of public
debate in the Councils of the Nation. Thence tol.
lowed some inveaive against himself (Mr. PITT),
on which he was least of all inclined to remark.—
But to return to the Noble Lord, who .thought
a Corporal or a Private might be employed in
this important duty, yet the Noble Lord would
be aware, that no man was likely to be appoint-
ed to this important station but one of the highest
military rank, with whom the Noble Lord, or
the proudest man in the Country—( A general
laugh !)—would sit down with petted satistaaion.
All we ask is, that the Thputy-Lieutenant should
receive the best information from the highest au-
thority, and that being so prepared, he may exercise
his own discretion. This was all the insult with
which he was chargeable, and it will perhaps he mat-
ter of astonishment to the House, that while this
flagrant enormity darkened the face.of this Bill, the
third reading was proceeded to, without the objec.
don having once before occurred to the Noble Lord,
An Hon. Friend of his had alluded to a certain bar.
barous nation, whibli was supposed to have derived
its virtuous habits, by a sort of transmigration, from
the souls of the enemy who lay dead on the field.
That Hon. Friend (Mr. WINDHAM) partakes in no
respect of this savage charafter. True it is, that
he has vanquished one enemy (the late Minister),
but he has not derived those advantages in the field
of battle which he expeCted ; and if the same civi-
lized spirit were not exhibited that was suited to
~his general disposition and character, it -might be
attributed to this disappointment.
Mr. HOE HOUSE said a few words, to which the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQUER made a short re-

Mr. GEORGE V ANS ITTARTsaid, he was at a
meeting of the Justices for the County where he re-
sided, and it was the general opinion on that
cccasion, that not a single man would be raised by
the Parishes, excepting in some insulated cases,
where the unfortunate candidate for military life
was either doomed to a gaol, or a halter.—( A gene-
ral laugh !)
Lord TEMPLE objected to the returns made of
men unfit for the service, and noticed an instance of

one man who was considered disqualified becJwe ht,
was fifty instead of forty.eight years old, ail( of
another, merely because he was unsightly, rAr 'l'3:
he could not see, but that he could not be seen
his Officer with complaisance.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
that it must at all times be the interest of Gower'''.
ment to avoid unnecessary objections.
Mr. B ATHURST mentioned three instances of
persons admitted who had ruptures,
merely bec:iq,e
they could at in a Military capacity with the assist:
ance of trusses ; and this was passed over, althougra.
the oath required them to depose, that the men were
not subjed ro that complaint.
Mr. FOX said, the objedions to the Bill were
so numerous and so weighty, that it could bardir
proceed. A power is given to the Commanding
Officer to dicharge the men sent by the Parishes'
which was equivalent to enabling that Officer to im-
pose a fine ; and he inquired if it -were consisteuc
with the prudence of the House to enable a MilitarY
Officer, by this political expedient, to levy a tax
the British People ?
The CH A NC ELLOR cfthe EXCHEQUER said'
it was not to be supposed that a Military Officer'
thus placed in a situation of high trust, would vex;
atiously injure the Army, and render incomPlle
the particular Regiment he might command• ,
would be opposed to every motive of duty and In.
clinatiun.

Mr. FOX did not imagine a House of CorntrOt's
would be satisfied with such an answer. Yougiv:
(says the Minister) to Military Officers the pow,,;
to impose a Tax upon the People, but it is to Jr'
twas t
htel oirt
cc oonnssitsirteunetnfidelity os
fthe lOia
dangerous e ;
presumed it will not be the subjed. of I,.)use."„rs
reposeto fid e
Ide n ce.
Mr. SHE RID AY contended, it was the interest
of the Army to intliel the fine upon the parishes. 1:1
the parochial regulations, 71. or tot. was to be pai,,
by the Overseers for Recruits, but if the Officer would
not admit this candidate for the ranks, lie (the Oiliced
was to have zol. from the parish to supplY the V3'
cancy ; and, to use the words of a Noble Lord
(TEMPLE, a much less unsightly man might be ob..
tained for this extravagant bounty-
A desultory conversation now took place, in which
the last speaker
and Mr. WM. DUNDAS bore the
principal parts.
Mr..GREY said that the Bill was absolutely
in-
corrigible the parochial scheme was absurd and
contradiaory.
To show the probability of disputOs
between these Inspedurs and the Deputy.Lieute*
nants, he mentioned an anecdote respefting a strong
young healthy recruit in the County he represented'
He received under the Army of Reserve Bill a bounty
of about fifty guineas; the con equence was, that ha
was in a constant state of debauchery for a consiu.ehs
able time : one evening, dead drunk, he lay in fot,
road, exposed to a heavy rain : a violent infif"hem
tion of his eyes ensued, and he lost one of t tho
entirely. In this. situation lie was rejeaed by the
Inspector, whose determination was resisted ang,
Deputy-Lieutenant. This might be consideref the,
of those unsightly cases within the meaning°ludea
Noble Lord (TEMPLE). Mr. Gast CO— a..
with observing, that the burthen thrown on the ..
12-',4
rishes' under the present Bill would be severe* ill
would ultimately fall on the Landed 'raciest of t
Country.
The remaining Clauses of the Bill were then g
through, in the course of which a variety of detail
and explanation occurred, in which the princl-P.,
speakers were, Messrs. PITT, Fox, SHER.ID;474
GREY, FITZPATRICK, BATHURsT, MUILRI9,

Ltsoist, &c. .
Mr. SHERIDAN asked if the Right HOD. th°
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 11411 d it in 4°,1";
ternplation to introduce a similar Bill into Ireland
Mr. PITT replied, that most probably 011,1‘4,,°,11e:
day, he should submit a Proposition to the Wm- "
respelling the mode in which it was intended g° hl
°oi
ply the principle of the present Bill to that Pall
the United Kingdom. 1.-- he 104
The SPEAKER having resumed the Chair, ught
port of the Committee was ordered to be br°—
up to-morrow, „ of the
Mr. JOHNSTONE moved for an Acco-r- cite erve
deficiencies the quota for the Army °,l r„,ti
and Militia, distinguishing the different
Adjourned at half past Eleven o'Clock•

ARgivs'