The Sun.
London, England, 1867-01-26 00:00:00

DEBATE ON THE BUDGET.

FLORENCE, Jan. 21.
In Friday's sittings of the Chamber of Deputies
--Signor Ferraris proposed that the house should
declare the urgency of the discussion of the Budget.
Baron Ricasoli replied that this proposal fully
coincided with the views of the Government. " Ad-
ministrative questions," continued the Minister,
" are now of the greatest urgensy. In the absence
of my colleague, the 'Minister orFinance, I accept
in his name the proposal of the Honourable Signor
Ferraris, and have to state that nothing but the
necessary time required for printing the bills and
other documents belonging to the Budget will delay
the debate."
Signor Ferraris—l hope that the debate which
will shortly take place will give that satisfaction
and explanation which certainly neither ourselves
nor the nation have derived from the long statement
made by the Honourable Minister of Finance.

The President of the Chamber here requested
Signor Ferraris, in consideration of the Minister's
absence, to defer his remarks until he should be pre-
sent, to which Signor Ferraris agreed.

On the following day, Saturday, 20th inst., the

President communicated the proposal of Signor
Ferraris to the Minister of Finance, who thereupon
addressed the Chamber as follows :—Yesterday,
during my absence, my honourable colleague said in
my name that I would willingly have accepted
Signor Ferraris' proposal. I may say more—l shall
say that I desire that this discussion should take
place as soon as possible. But there is a difficulty
for which lam not responsible. Eight large volumes
have to be printed, and although four printing
establishments are engaged upon the work, I shall
not be able to obtain the proof sheets for a few
days. Now, I should not wish the desires of the
Chamber to be contradictory. It has voted the
discussion of the bill upon the ecclesiastical pro-
perty, and now prefers another debate. As far as
regards myself I accept any debate, provided that
there is no question of that unworthy guerilla
warfare which is barren of good ; but I shall

always prefer those discussions, which, having vital
importance, meet public expectation and avoid any
delay in the application of good and profitable
laws. I believe, gentlemen, that any delay would
be a fault in which I should not wish to be an
accomplice.

Signor Ferraris insisted upon his proposal. Since
the President of the Council had admitted it, the
dignity of the Government and the Chamber
required that they should not return to a question
already decided. He had no wish to lessen the
importance of the matter at issue, but he con-
demned the Minister of Finance for not having re-
cognised the expediency and the urgency of his
proposal. (Applause on the Left.) He complained
also that the Minister should have replied in a
previous sitting to Signor Crispi by presenting five
bills of which the Chamber had as yet not taken
cognisance. " Meanwhile," continued Signor Fer-
raris, " time is passing. The Minister wbo is so
concerned at our financial condition should know
that each day that passes without adopting remedial
measures still further deepens the abyss opening
beneath the feet of the nation, an abyss which not
all his theories will suffice to fill. (Applause on
the Left.) Sacrifices are demanded from the
country ; but the secret lies in the mode of impos-
ing them, and the counsellors of the Crown have
not acquired that secret, because they never go
among the people nor study either their tendencies,
wants, or desires." Signor Ferraris proceeded to
express his belief that the general discussion would
not take place before the 15th of February, and that
no good result would be obtained before the middle
of March. lie censured the idea and the mode of
procedure of Signor Scialoja, and said the country
required facts and not illusions. lie concluded his
speech by proposing the following order of the
day :
" The Chamber, convinced that the country
expects extensive and rigorous economy, and wish-
ing before all to be satisfied that this may be
sufficient to meet the requirements of the public
service, resolves to precede, by the discussion of the
statement of the public debt, any debate upon
the measures proposing to augment the Credit
Budget either by alienation of property or increase
of taxation.

" Yt invites the Government to communicate, as
soon as possible, to the committee the accounts of
the public debt, in order that they may form their
opinion upon the same."
mignor D'Ondes considered that the proposal of
Signor Terraria was neither practicable nor accept-
able, and proposed that the Chamber should proved
to the discussion it migbt decide to be most expedient
without taking account of order or precedent.
After a few words from Signor La Porta, in sup-
port of the motion, the Minister of Finance said :
While the hon. Signor Ferraris complains of the
slowness of the Ministry, he makes a proposal which
defers to the Greek Calends the most important part
of the dicenssioo, and that when the Government
has declared that it desires nothing more than to
discuss its financial projects. This arises either from
a misunderstanding or an erroneous idea. I regret
the proposal of the honourable member, and again
remind the Chamber that it has accepted the motion
of the hon. Signor Crispi, which proposed a few days
ago to discuss with urgency the most important of
the financial measures.
Voices—To the vote, to the vote.
verSni gmneonrt Lf
raonmz a
the, in ai
ml opnugt
atio n s speech,o fd
se egndno er dFtehre Go-
r ar
but was greatly interrupted by the members sitting
on the Left, while:these interruptions were met by
cries of " Go on," " Go on," from the Right.
i explained that since the delay in
priSnit"innogrwCisoruldP prevent the Chamber for some time
from taking the Ministerial prcjects into considera-
tion, and that as it appeared that no practical result
could be expected from the financial discussions before
the middle of March, he wished to place on record
that his proposal was made with no intention of
countenancing delay in discussing the Budget..
Signor Depretis (Minister of Marine) enumerated
the causes to which the delay in the presentation of
the Budget was due, stating that the new political
condition of the country, and the re-organisation
thereby necessitated, had compelled the Ministry
to compile the Budget anew. Ile blamed Signor
Ferraris for the bitter expressions he had used to-
wards the Government, and could not comprehend
the persistence of the Chamber in reproaching the
Government with tardiness.

Signor Ferraris justified himself in reply, and
maintained his proposal.

Signor Lanza protested against a flat contradic-
tion which he was under the impression of having
received from Signor Ferraris.
At this point great diclturbftree tonic place in the
Chamber, and numerous members demanded the
vote.

Signor Villa pointed out that the question at

issue was simply one of order,
great misfortune if the Chamber
should consider it as a Cabinet qu.
the present moment. He maintained that no new
taxes ought to be voted until the country is satisfied
that all possible economies have been effected. For
this reason—which was approved by all the Left--
he supported the motion of Signor Ferraris, and pre-
sented some proposals tending to accelerate the
labours of the investigating committee of the
Budget.
Voices—To the vote, to the vote.
The Minister of Finance—" The question raised
by the hon. Signor Villa is new. (Disturbance and
interruptions.) The Government does not wish or
ask you to defer your vote upon the bills, and de-
sires nothing more than to see approval or diap.-
proval what it proposes to you. But what I cannot
admit is the form of procedure which Signor Ferraris
wishes to impose on me, and this form I reject, and I
say this thus distinctly, in order to be understood by
any who may feign not to understand." These words
gave rise to great disturbance and many protests
from the Left. Various members rose to speak and
for some moments it was impossible to restore order.
When comparative quiet prevailed the President
said—l beg the hon. members to keep silence. Mr.
Minister of Finance, I cannot permit it to be as-
serted by any that there may be any person within
these walls capable of intending and feigning not to
comprehend a statement. (Sensation.)
Signor Scialoja—lf the words I have just spoken
could give offence to any person, I have no difficulty
in withdrawing them, since it is not my custom, as
it was not my intention on the present occasion, to
give any offence. (Applause from all the benches.)
Signor Scialoja, after receiving permission from.
the President, proceeded with his speech, and stated
that he made the motion of Signor Ferraris a Cabi-
net question.
-Signor Lanza—l absolutely reject the Ferraris
motion, and wish the Chamber and the country to
know that I do so. (Disturbance in the House
generally. The President rings his bell several
times.)

Signor Lanza—l reject it as illusory, as injurious,
as contradictory, and as opposed to the welfare of
the nation.
Voices on the Rig:it—Bravo. Very good.
On the Left—No, no. (Disturbance.)
Voices on the Left—You are wrong ; you are
wrong.

Signor Lanza continued his speech with verygreat
warmth, demonstrating the inexpediency of the
Ferraris motion, and said he had heard Signor
Villa state that further reductions to the amount of
100 millions could still be made. (" No, no," from
the Left.)
A Voice—l request to speak on a motion of order.
The disturbance now reached its height, notwith-
standing the repeated efforts of the President to
restore order.

Signor Villa stated that he never intended to
alter the sense of the proposal, and did not, to the
best of his recollection, make the statement attri•
buted to him by Signor Lanza. (The further ob-
servations of Signor Villa were lost in the cries of
" To the vote," " Adjourn," raised from all parts of
the house.)
Signor Bargoni proposed that the Chamber
should pass to the order of the day.
The adjournment was then put to the vote and
approved.

Signor Bargoni—l shall withdraw my motion if
the ;Chamber does not allow me to explain my
motion in proposing it.
Voices—Speak, speak !
Bargoni—l declare that I could not to-day con-
scientiously give my support to an order of the day
implying a vote of want of confidence in the Go-
vernment. I believe that there has been too much
discussion, and that it has rather been a question
of defeating the Ministry than of discussing a pro-
posal. It was for this reason that I made my
motion.

The motion of Signor Bargoni was then se-
conded, and the President announced that he put
it to the vote, which produced a fresh storm of pro-
tests and cries from the Left, the interruption in
this case lasting some minutes.
The President —Having heard the nominal ap-
peal demanded, without statement of the cause, I
append it to the order of the day of Signor Bar-
goni. (Disturbance.)
Signor Viila—l protest. The nominal appeal
was demanded for the Ferraris motion.

Pre.sident—Gentlemen, the order of the day just
now put to the vote has been approved, and it is
impossible to reconsider a vote to the Chamber.

the greatest tumult here arose, protests from the
Left being mingled with derisive laughter from the
Right. In the midst of the confusion the Presi-
dent declared the session closed on account of the
late hour, and the House rose at 6.30 p.m.

NEWSPAPER

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