The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 27, 1858.

LINES LEASED AT FIXED RENTALS.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION. •

account that which with all respect to you, Sir, I
may describe as a more important consideration,
namely, what would be the effect of the vote of the
House of Commons upon public opinion in England and
in India. And although when the question of the intro-
duction of the noble lord's bill was brought before the
house it was the opinion of those who then became re-
sponsible for the conduct of affairs that the amendment
was a wise and prudent one—although, with scarcely
an exception, those who now form the Administration
in this house bad voted in favour of that amendment
—still it was impossible to avoid the responsibility
of action under the new circumstances which then
presented themselves for our consideration. (Ersarr
hear.) Now, difficult as was the position in which we
found ourselves, I cannot, upon reflection, help thick-
ing that we could have taken no other course than that
which we pursued. lam of opinion that it would be
impossible under those circumstances to evade offering
to the notice of the House of Commons that scheme
of government for India which, upon the whole,
we thought would be most advantageous to that
country. We acted upon that conviction, and the house
will permit me to observe that there was some similarity,
but great differences, between the scheme of the noble
lord opposite and that which her Majesty's Ministers
submitted to its consideration. (Hear, hear.) They re-
sembled one another in one particular. They both pro-
posed that the government of India, so far as it was con-
ducted in this country, should be carried on by a sole
and responsible Minister, who should possess an undi-
vided authority. The noble lord proposed in addition
that there should be a certain limited number of indivi-
deals nominated by the Crown, who should be called the
Council of this Minister. We, upon the other hand,
proposed the appointment of a Minister with undivided
authority, who should be solely responsible for the ad-
ministration of the affairs of India, and who should
be assisted in the conduct of those affairs by a Coun-
cil which, in point of number and of the quality of
the materials of which it was composed, should not be
merely a council in name. (Hear.) Now, I would call
the attention of the house to what in the consideration on
Friday next of the Act of the Queen and of the resolu-
tions which I have laid upon the table ie the main issue
upon which we shall have to decide. There are, no
doubt, a vast number of secondary considerations and
arrangements which will have to be dealt with, some of
which are unquestionably of great importance, such, for
instance, as the distribution ef patronage and questions of
that description ; but at the bottom of thisgreat subject lies
One main issue upon which the attention of the house
ought to be concentrated before it proceeds to the con-
sideration of any of those other matters which will come
under its notice. There are, if I may be permitted to
use the phrase, two schools which have laid down cer-
tain dogmas in accordance with which the new Govern-
ment of India ought, they contend, to be frarnett. The
first is one which boasts of the simplicity of its a, iamq-.-
mentp. Its adherents tell you that there is no difficulty
in nor sVucting a Government for India—that the t.irn-
pier the form of Government you devise for it the better
—that all you have to do is to establish a great officer of
State, with undivided authority and a le responFibility,
sitting in a House of Parliament, and assisted in the ad-
ministra'ion of his office by a few clerks and an Under
Secretary. The principle upon which this school founds
it,; system is ex(rezlely simple ; it is this,—that India
ought to be governed in the same way r,s every other
bpendermy of her Majesty. Now, lat once, and with
all due respect, join issue with that school. (Hear,
hear.) I deny that India ought to be governed in the
8M135 way as any other dependency of her Majesty.
(Hear, hear.) I deny the justice of the analogy drawn
between ti a'. country and other por.iot s of the dominions
of the Cr.).n. (Hear, hear.) India is an empire of
many kingdoms and nations ; an empire inhabited by a
ppulation profesEing different religions, governed by
different laws, influenced by d fferent custerns, and coo-
lta:ning a physical variety of race equal- to that which
exis's in Europe. ;Hear, hear.) Now, from the consi-
deration of these fan's, the conclusion, in my opinion

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inevitably follows, that he who governs ludia ehould he
a man possessing vast and varied information with re-
spect to the subject with which he would have to deal,
and I cannot believe that any English statesman who
might be appointed to the office of Pres Pent of a Coun-
cil for India, or to that of Secretary of State for Lela,
and suddenly and unexpectedly appointed to that office,
owing perhaps to his general reputation and
the possession of great Parliamentary ability, could
possess the requisite information and knowledge for
the efficient discharge of the duties of so important a
position. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, if that be so, he
must consult with somebody ; and the consequence is
that the permanent officers of hisdepartment, his Uridere
Secretary or his clerk, becomes his Council. (Hear.)
Now, I have the greateet respect for the. permanent
civil servants of the Crown. (Hear, hear.) Nuns one
can have been placpcl in communication with that large
and valuable body of her Majesty's servants without en-
tertaining for its members a feeling not only of respect
but in many ins ances of admiration, (Hear, hear.) It
is, however, impossible to deny that if they are in any
respect open to be charged with deficiency, that defi-
eierlcy consists—and, indeed, I may say it is dulcet a
necessary consequence ,f the careers which they have
rma—in the absence of that feeling of responsibility
which e who are trained in this house all m some de-
gree possess. (Hear.) They necessarily live in a school
of peculiar opinious—(hear) —to which they Lc ene
w dded, often from the force of conviction, but some-
times owing to the influence of habit. (Rear, hear.) I
do not, then, believe that this system of the simple
school of suddenly effecting a great revolution, such as
that proposed by the late Prime Minister, and substi-
tuting fer the complicated government that still prevails
n connection with India a Minister of the Croat), an-
aisted by some permanent civil servants, would be found
to be one that would work in a manner satisfactory to
the country. (Cheers.) But then, sir, the adherents Of
this school and they are both active and able to tell us
that it does not signify much whether tuts new Minister
fur India is realty capable from hie knowledge and ex-
perience, or whether even the subordinates to whom he
trusts for the information requisite for the ordinary dis-
charge of the duties of his office are (-Mei- rit,
irtascuuch
as in accordance with a second principle cf their 41.Pct.rne
India must be governed in India. New, I beg the hue
to citneider how much is involved in that phrase.
" India must be governed in India," simply means teat
England is to be ignorant sf India. (Loud c!tecre)
You place the Governor-General in India, it you
adept the principle to which I have just alluded as
the main rule of y ur new policy, in a position of power
which the constitution of this country has not hitherto
contemplated, and which may produce effects upon the
fortunes cf this empire, the maenittele of which it is itn•
nis-ibls to predict. (Cheers.) Why, sir, the Governor-
General of India would under those circumstances, not
checked by any one possessing sufficient knowledge or
authority—which is always the child of knowledge in
this country—hold a position which no despot has at any
.tirne occupied. (Hear, hear.) Conceive for a moment the
career which might tempt an indiciduol pine-d in that
position--a career perhaps of conquest, which might
exercise an immense influence over the finances cif India
—an it fluence which would he sure to react on the finan-
ces of England—no one prepared to c;eck, no one ready
to control him. (Hear.) There may be occasionally com-
plaints of misconduct and mal administration, instances
of the exercise of an arbitrary will upon his part, not to
justifiud ; but if these complaints come home and are
referred to him for explanation, be will give that satis-
factory explanation which superior kno ledge can always
give upon every subject. (Hear.) What power, I would
ask, would your Minister, with undivided au hority at
home, possess to influence a potentate of that descrip•
tien ; and in what position would such a Governor-Gene-
ral of India stand in relation to the Ministry in England,
especially if it were a weak Ministry ? (Hear.) What
an exercise of patronage at his command to sustain a
weak and falling party ! If an inquiry should be insti-
tuted into his conduct how easily might he not in a
moment put a stop to its progress by providing for all
those claimants on Ministerial patronage whom his in-
exhaustible resources could alone satisfy I (Hear.) The
more I reflect upon this simple plan the more I confess
does it appear to me to be dangerous and impracticable.
(Hear.) Well, there is another plan which has been
brought forward, and brought forward in this house in
the form of a bill, and which has been stigmatised as a
cirmplicated plan. I cannot, however, for my part, say
that I think the plan of the noble lord deserves that
epithet. The plan of the noble lord is indeed—souse-
what veiled no doubt and mitigated for form's sake—
the plan of that simple school to which I have adverted
—(hear)—because the Minister of the noble lord would
possess all the Indian patronage, and his despotism in
England would be veiled only by the appointment of
some barren nominees. (Cheers.) Those nominees could
not perform the office of a Council, because each of the
departments to which they would be called upon to direct
their attention would alone demand and fully tax the
powers of a single individual. (Hear.) What we require
in the case of a Council for lonia is that every great
department, the military, the financial, the judicial, each
should be subjected to the control of a committee of in-
fluence and of combined mind. If, however, you have a
Council limited in number and consisting only of a few
nomirovs of the Crown, you will find each department
of our Indian administration under the control of one
tole individual, and that individual, in point of fact, a
clerk or an Under Secretary. (Hear, hear.) The bill
which I had the honour to introduce was of a differerit
character. It was stigmatised as complicated ; in fact,
the chief objection which has been raised against it—one
of invective rather than of reason—has been its compli-
cated character. lam not prepared to agree that that is a
fault in the formation of a government for the adminis-
tration of Ind at. affairs. A great writer has said that
of all the affectations the affectation of simplicity is the
most off naive, and that which is true of composition
or manners is, to my mind equally valid with respect to
political institutions. W by, sir, we have during
the last century had a great many institutions
established in Eur)pe, all of them remarkable
tor their simplicity. They have been tie
children of philosophers of an enlightened age.
They have been formed upon abstract principles—
based upon abstract truths and upon first principles, and
what has been the fate cf those institutions? But our
own constitution is not a simple construction—our con-
stitution is extremely complicated, and yet our own
constitution has worked much better than any of
to
obove
modern inventions. Certainly, lam not pr
in my adhesion to the principle that siatpolirceithaynrs.hiao.uldvvb:
the characteristic of any constitution for d
osition for any'
know that it is very easy to ritdhiscrus
apt)
y government in
government. I do not think
existence—any institution which has long flourished,
and which we are perfectly accustomed to regard as a

mere matter of course, which might not be proved VI
be utterly impracticable, although it has been in prac-
tice fir centuries. Now, Ido not know any institution
which appears to us more natural and more simple than
the made in which the general administration of this
country is carried on by a committee of the Privy
Council called the Cabinet. That seems to us the
most natural institution possible, the legitimate pro-
duct of Parliamentary government ; but if it were now
proposed fir the first time, and I were in opposi-
tion, I think I could show that of all absurd invention',
of all impracticable suggestions, that was the most ridi-
culous. I should say, "Only think of taking men out
of one House of Parliament, and then taking men out of
the other House—these two houses being assemblies be-
tween which there is not by any means entire sympathy,
but which are, on the contrary, often in conflict. Only
think of making a man a Cabiuet Minister because he a.
connected with the agricultural interest, another be-
cause he is connected with the mercantile interest ; only
think of making a man a Cabinet Minister because he
can make a speech." (Laughter.) Every one would
say directly, "This is a form of government the most
absurd ever known, it cannot wcrlc, and the person
who would propose it is not entitled to the public confi-
dence." But if it be added that the Government of
the country thus constituted shall consist only of men
who sit in the House of Lords or the House of Co-n-
-mons, what declamation would there not be against such
a special qualification ? Wou d it not be said, "That
is a plan by which you prevent many clever men who
shoul f be in the Government from forming a part
of it. The absurd and heterogeneous institution yeti
propose would shut out Mr. Hallam, Mr. Grote, and
Mr. Mill—it is totally impossible such an institution
should work at all." Yet it does work on the whole
very satisfactorily. (Hear, and laughter.) Now, Sir,
although I speak with becoming diffiden, e on a subject
like that of the government of India, of which I am
bound to say, from all that has passed during the last
two months, I cannot but feel there does not exist in this
house or in the country that mature opinion—(hear,
hear)—that mature opinion which should accompany,
and always has accompanied in this country, the solu-
tion of a grave question. Still I cannot but agree, from
what I have observed here, that a majority of this
house are in favour of a council to assist the new
Minister of the Crown. But, sir, if they are in fa
-
your of a council, surely they must be in favour of a
real council. (Hear, hear.) Now, that in the present
system of the Government of India in England there
are great faults lam the last man to deny. Many
of them are acknowledged even by the members of that
Government. But that there are also great merits no
one can dispute—(hear, hear)—and it does not require
the assent of this house to prove that point—the
existence and the maintenance of the Indian empire
demonstrate that satisfactorily. What are the qualities
and excellencies of the East India direction, which have
rever been questioned, but which are universally ac-
knowledged ? The knowledge that exists there—(hear)
—the experience that exists there, the aptitude to deal
with all forms and subjects of Inerste administration,
(Hear.) Those are the qualities that made the govern-
ment of the East India Company successful, and which
counteracted the evil effects of delay and divided power.
(Hear.) Therefore. it appears to me that if you resolve
to have a con eel, it should he a real council, and should
possese those elements which the Court of Directors has
been eminent for. (Hear.) I say, in the first place such
a council ought to be numerous. Ido not think that
any one who has investigated with attention all the mat-
ters that corns under !ha consideration of the present
Court of Directors can believe that they could be effi-
ciently dealt with by a limited number of mere notni-
tees, as the untie lord proposed. (Hear.) All those
great subjects of business—to some of which I have al-
luded, and which I nil not weary the house by describ-
ing in demel—carferet eatislictoi ily be ranged under less
than eight distinct !-ends, requiring the aid of c
mmit-
tees to administer there. You may put two or three
subjects together, anti thus reduce the number of cern-
orittees, but there are eieht considerable heads of uuei-
dess which require the intervention of committees—if
we are to have an effective council. Committees for the
government of a dependency so distant provide those
qualities of criticism and control which never can be ex-
pected front a single individual. A tingle individual s a
mere adutinistrstor, and becomes a mere clerk ; but
if you want a council ton roust have c anruittees, and if
y.'u want committees for the management of the affairs
relating to the Indian army, to Indian finance, t Indian
judicial estat-Ishmeuts, to our dealings •sith native
princes, to the home government of India, and other
important subjects, you roust necessarily have a nume-
rous council. (Hear, bear.) Well, if you are prepared
to agree to a council considerable in numbers, are you
prepared at once to say the Crown shall nominate the
whole of them ? I think that would be entrusting to
the Crowp a power which the jealous feeling usually
pervading the house would make us hesitate to concede.
(Hear, hear.) Ido not wish upori this occa,ion to enter
into any inquiry as to what should be the exact number
of the council, but for the sake of argument I will as-
sume that the number should be that proposed in the
bill which I had the hongur of introducing—namely, 18.
Are you prepared to entrut the nomioation of those 18
councillors to the Crown ? (Hear, bear.) I believe such
a course would be unwise and dangerous—one wl I
could never approve. Then you come to the plan of no-
mination, to a certain extent. Let us assume that the
Crown shall nominate one-half the council—say nine.
We proposed that while the Crown should nominate
one-half of the council, security eliould be taken that the
nominees should he efficient men—that is to ray, they
should be men who had large experience of India, that
they ehou'd be men who pox-eased the knewledge which
would enable them to give to the Minister for India in
EA!land complete information upon all subjects which
conic under the notice of the council. We proposed ar-
rangements which would have insured brat he civil ser-
vices of the three presidencies to the great Gevernmeets
and to the great armies cf India should be represented
in this council. It has been alleged that these restric-
tions were unwise. (Hear, beer.) It has been all- ged
that by insisting upon those conditions you must shut
out of the council very able men who otherwi,e might
be placed upon it. Undoubtedly you would. It you
make a general arrangement there may be exc,,ptione
which you will have just reason to regret. But are you
to legislate for oxceptionF ? Are you net to
look at the great object of your I,gishition, which, in
this assumed case, is that the cetincii shall be a real coon •
cil, pox-awing adequate knowledge and experience, ar,d
are you not to take steps to secure that (ilk& ? Are 30u
not to see that the Government upon any question
re
Whig to the Punksh, cr to Schede, or to the Southern
Provinces, shall be certain to find in the council non who
upon those sutjects can give the best and soundest ad-
vice? (fleas, hear.) I think teat was a wise andpru-
dent arrangement. (Hear, hear.) When lam told that
some men might by those means be excluded froni the
coot oil of India, allow me to inform the house what
would be the average number of individuals from whom
a selection c. ul.f ha made, who have been connected
with tire great armies or civil services of that empire.
The number of p,rsons who have filled the highest offices
in India, would probably net be less than 80 ; and are we
to believe that if the Minister for India in this country
had to eel-ct f r each of those special qualifications from
among not less than 80 men who have all occupied the
highest offices in council or in war, he would not be able
to fail men of very dietiereuished merit ? To Fay that he
would not is the rno-t preposterous ceeclu.ion to which
we could arrive. But lam told in tee manifesto of the
East India Company that this proposition was the vi °set
proposition of the kind, because it represented class ie-
terests. Now, I must say I wa-s never more surprist d
than when I heard an objection raised to this plan, which
is not insisted on in the resolutions, though it is quite
open to be proposed in committee. I must say I wit- per-
fectly surprised that on the part of the East India Com-
pany this objection should be urged, that we were by this
plan representing class interests. I have heard in this
house often enough, and in other places, that nothing is
more baneful to a state than class legislation. That I can
uederstand. But what is class legislation ? It means legis-
lation in favour of a class, because in the assembly where
the legislation takes piece that class preponderates. I
agree that that is legislation of the most vicious character.
But the results of the representation of class interests
would not be the same as class legislation is likely to
lead to It would naturally lead to exactly different con-
sequences, inasmuch as the premises are exactly con-
trary ; and I have always heard it maintained that no
principle of popular representation is more sound than
the representation of classes. (Hear, hear.) Is this the
place where we should maintain a different doctrine I
Are not we who are some of us members for counties,
some for towns, and some for universities, all of us re-
presentatives of class interests? And I want to know
what has made our Parliament so Successful and so fa•
mous but the circumstance that it has always been an
assembly which represented class interest'. (Cheers.)
Well, Sir, so far therefore as regards the construe ion of
this Council on the principle of nomination, I do main-
tain that if that principle of nomination be adopted by
the Crown it should be limited, and that if you have a
numerous and real council it should not extend beyond
one moiety of the members of that Council. How are
you to obtain the other ? I mention this subject because
if we can arrive at a conclusion on that point by the
tame whoa we are to decide on the resolutions which wid
soon be before the house we shall find our discussion
much iacilitated. I say, if you have this Council consti-
tuted with a power of nomination by the Crown to be
exercised to the extent of one-half cf it, how are you to
obtain the other I can see no means of obtaining men
of the character necessary for taking part in the govern-
menth of India—men possessing independence and high
qualities, together with experience and special kno
rinci-
ledge, unless you have recourse to the electivei
isP very
pie. (Rear, Lear.) But, Sir, the elective prime p
much objected to. We hear it is unconstitutional
Royal and salaried councillor should be
ireense difficulty
popular voice. Well, Sir, I admit thbeiisrobased
on the un-
-1 encountering any argument
"jeer yet found any deli.-
enistitutonal objection. I have nwevhich, except the term
°.teaCled btyhatthae
eitieti of that epithet.
It
is
oncl7scuesion than anything
" un-English," more baffles
elect a Royal and salaried
else. (A laugh.) That tic) we
dealing with, as practichathe this Bgreat h questionat are
official is anomalous I fry
Are a e not dealing
mfuegnar,denian'tietst anomaly that has
exiled in modern times—the
What is the charecter mEp
aa East
—I
wd India
t is Companythecha!
you not 'suspended the
elective committee .
? (Hear.) What are the members
Executive power of the Crown in order to delegate it t•
' an
meter of its whole career? Have
' of the Court of llfrecters? Are they not in the language
ef your laws the trustees of the Crown, and do they not
receive salaries wheu elected ? And what is there mere
unconstitutional in a royal and salaried council than in
a royal and salaried trustee (Cheers.) Well, I think
that that is an objection against the elective principle
which cannot be maintained. But, if the councillors are
to be elected, by whom should they be elected ? (Hear.)
sir, in the resolutions ou the table we have indicated
one source from which they are to be elected in our opi-
nion, and let me ray one word about that, Now, valet.

i ever may be the faulteeef the East India direction, al
will admit that by "the limited and ridicolouee",as the
noele lord the member for Tiverton described the cone
stituency that produces them, very able and eminent
men have been elected into that council. No man cam
urge it as an argument for the destruction of the East
India Company that the East India directors have been
inefficient men. On the contrary, it is notorious that
those men, elected by this "limited and ridiculous con-
stituency," have been on the average far above the usual
rate of public men in point of ability and; intelligence.
(Hear.) Well, then, we have proposed a constituency to
elect a certain number of persons of a.character analo-
gous to that constituency which at present existseand has
for so long a period produced such efficient representa-
tives, but infinitely improved in two great respeots. In
the first place, it is much more numerous; and in the se-
cond, it is infinitely more varied. I have get a paper berg
with
h;thi
that
side h I shall not trouble the house—drawn up
with great care, which has been placed in my hands since
froml bad the honour of introducing the bill which emanated
otfliethceoahsotuitsuee;nacyndtoit
wahpipeeharwsefrpomrapotsbeil
doeuineir
il
oot Off
tcdhael:lei power
tglaanideia(thnheeacro)
u_nac
do f returningwould
u lld ainm the
remindedelectivenumberhave
my membersbeen
hob
ftrwieesedn 7n,oeoaor aninde,B,
aOlOlO,
of andi t
capital
prietpa rl e s.
'*vested
nyte.esdi
e5d8,;0:01,0130d0i
fe
a
nheown.lgedeniatnlecmo
(Cheers) But there is an objection which I know hag
hem u pd ss
e
annst;itubut what which
is, that it will
,be impossible to canvass theemney,(Hwearc)
the"il ge;era,thaeragrUment used against the Company when we
renewed the charter in 1853 ? True it was that very able
men on the whole were elected by the constituency cha-
racterised by the noble lord (Lord Palmerston) as
" limited and ridiculous ;" but it is not the less true, as
was then urged, that that constituency did entail on
those who solicited their suffrages a condition of affairs
so degrading that the most eminent men would not sub-
mit to it. (Cheers) The difficulty ascribed to our new
constituency is, that it will be impossible to canvass it. I
think that is one of its great recommendations. I think
it would be a great improvement on the existing state of
things that men who aspired to sit in the Indian Conn-
cil should simply issue their addresses to the constituency
and stand on their character, and on that alone. (Cheers.)
In devising the construction of this Royal Council, which
is the great question that must engage the attention,
and the deep attention of this house, if they mean to
legislate with effect for India, we had to consider whe-
ther it was not important to bring the effect of English
opinion upon that special Indian knowledge with which
by the proposition to which I have adverted we had
amply furnished the Council. Unless this could be
effected the inconvenience and the evil were obvious.
Men, it was said, who had served in the military and
civil services in India might he gifted with great intelli-
gence end possess greatknoe ledge, but, born in thenbuses
of a system, they are not sensible of their existence. If,
on the other hand, you send to your Indian Government
Englishmen animated only by English feelings, while on
the one hand you have merely Indian special knowledge
twahnitcshoEf
irig.dliisahfporrotaencytiog
agnhctetwo
hsiecchutrheetyo
to guide your affairs, you cannot obtain that redress
ton
rothaeyinsubffaberi;
On the other hand, if you have a merely English ele-
ment, you have the consequences which must result from
thamennere, liabete, and the laws of the people of the
various nations of India being outraged. You have die-
m b re,ie and disaffection. You must combine both the
conservative and r+ forming eiements so that there may
be a due belaece of the advantages and qualities of both,
especially of lcdian knowledge and English opinion.
(Hoar, hear.) Hew is that to be done ? Who are to
be elected ? You could barely pl'Opoee to elect members
of council from the agricultural interest. The agricul-
tural class has in no respect en inetaet or immediate in-
terest in the welfme f India. If India were lost to-
ram row it would be nothing more to the ag'latltural in-
terest than it weula be to the great body of the people
from the general impoverishment of the community.
' (Hear, Lear.) But there are persons among us who
have an instant and immediate interest in the wellbeing
of India, and to wh nu the good government of India is
an obj-et of the first necessity, because they send their
manufactures to the population of that country, and on
it they must depend for their most important raw mate•
rials. (Hear.) They have a positive, and instant inte-
rest in the good government of India, because they can-
not have the population of that country as good custo-
mers unless they are well governed. (Hear.) Jf there
qe wanieg a plea of the truth and soundness of what I
state, lock at what ha, been the course e f what is called
Indian reform in thh,l country. Where eas the question
of Indian reform first t rought ferward ? Have the peep'e
of England ever cared ono jot about reform in India
No ; and for the simple reason, which I bare 'before
stated to the house, because the pecple of England do
net pay for India—(hear)—because so long as Indian
fiearice is separsned from English finance, and so long as
the people of Erg'and do net pay in consequence c f the
misgovernment of that country, they will care nothing
for Indian reform. (Hear, hear.) But a cry for In-
dian reform did come, and whence from ? • From Lanca-
shire. (Hear.) The people there knew very well that
if the resources of India worn exleauted by unjust and
impolitic verve, that if those resources were not developed
their trade most suffer, and their prosperity be affected,
and therefore it was from that part of the country that
the cry for Indian reform came,. which said, Give us a
Government that will secure for us opulent customers,
and who will return fer cur Inanuf.4ctured articles plenty
of the raw material. (He: r, hear.) Indian reform, though
it involves sonic of the highest c:tnsiderations that can
occupy the minds e f statesmen, and even touch the heart
f nations, has never for a moment occupied the mind
but t f a comparatively diminutive circle—those engaged
in the great seats e f commerce and manufactures in this
country. We therefore thought it was a wise and expedie
ent proposition, as I believe it to be still, to hung repre-
sentatives of these interests into the Indian Council.
(Hear.) I shall not now touch on the constitutional of jec-
tion, because t bat was disposed of in reference to the In-
dian constituencies, and it is not mere unconstitutional
to he elec ed by Indian coninittnencies than by those we
propose in thi4 instance. (Weir.) In coming to the con-
clusien that the great seals of trade should, to a certain
degree, he represented, we could not confine ourselves to
the pedantry of selecting of ly those places that were
most remarkable for their commercial relations with
India. ([leer.) As necanee statesmen e e had to corn i ler
the 6a we of all the three rations of wbich this united
empire is compeentd ; and, first, we proposed that the city
of .Leridon should ho repreeeeted in the ceuncil. We
were not unmindful of the anomalous position of the c ty
of Loudo n with r. geed to its metrepel tan districts ; but
when legieleting on such a matter as this you must take
the ma eriele beene you. (Heat.) The city of London
was the great and ancieut emporium of this country ;
its port he great seat of trade, its relations with Indian
ro:oneerce close and extensive, and if ae had attempted
to deal on a large scale with the n hole rnetrepolitan
population the whole scheme would have fallen to the
grout d. (Hear, hear.) Teen we tick the greatest
commercial city in Scotland—one haVing very large
relations with India. But, indeed, it would be
impossible to make a proposition of any kind without
acknowledging the claims of India. I should like to
know who would have taade a proposi ion to pass over
Ireland. I can fancy the indignant invective with which
such a proposal would have been n ceived ; but inae-
much as we passed over the capital of Scotland the
capital of Ireland could not be offended because it was
not included. (hear.) We took in its stead the great
and prosperous town of Belfast, which at this moment
eras no considerable eelations with India ; but between
all lame manufacturing and commercial towns there is
a sympathy that binds them together—Manchester, for
example sympathizing with Belfast, and Belfast with
Manchester—Liverpool with Glasgow, and Glasgow
again with Liverpool. (Hear.) We proposed to have
these three cities—London, Glasgow, and Belfast—
represented in the council, and to these were added
those special seats of industry that depend more upon
India than any other interest in this country—Man-
chester and Liverpool. (Hear, hear.) Hew can the
representatives of these places be chosen 1 I now come
to the great objection that is felt rather than urged in
this House. It has been suggested to me over and
over again since I made that proposition that in the
Chambers of Commerce and the municipalities of each
of those towns we might have found a sufficient con-
stituency for our purpose. I think I need not inform
the House that this expedient had occurred to us before ;
but no one can maintain that a Chamber of Commerce,
composed as it is of the most fleeting and evanescent
material', can be taken as a constituency. (Hear.) And
as regards the municipalities it was obvious to us that
they would only be the means by which the patronage
of the council would be divided among a small number
of families in the great towns ; and therefore we availed
ourselves of that machinery which was ready at hand,
and which has been stigmatised with so much alacrity in
this House and in other places—viz., tbeat
beard Parliamentaryma
constituencies. (Hear, hear.)
If
havebnut I have heard
arguments against that propositio:
argument. I have
something else which has superseded
atumeiy
and every epithet
beard every phrase of "out upon that proposie
of indignation
pouredhed to whom we wish to commit
tion and upon ther
) Everybody, in every place, and on
that trust.
(Hear) to be astonished that what was
every occasion,
called stew-pounder should for a moment be intrusted
with this franchise. the
(Cheers and laughter from Mi-
nisterial benches.
) Nor can I forget, and never shall I
Imost awe-struck tones one hon. mem-
berforget, the a
to ask rea I d • l •
an serous y desgned tba
rose
is ty should be intrustedy to the freemeni of Liver-
t
oledue(Laughter.) On that subject I would only wish
st•e;_night to offer the result of my reflection and observa-
tion. I cannot for a moment attempt to compete with
that power of sarcasm and invective with which the
great body of the constituency of England, and especially
of the great commercial towns, have been treated by
tee Liberal party. (Cheers and laughter.) But I remem-
ber that some 40 years ago the freemen of Liverpcol
were called upon to exercise their trust and elect a mem-
ber of Parliament, acrd that they sent to this hot it 3 Mr.
Canning. (Cheers.) And what did we do in this house
when we got Mr. Canning here Why, we made him
fee soon a,. possible President of the Board of Control.
(Hear.) And can the freemen cf Liverpool not lee in-
tr with electing a member of the Indian Council,
wh-n a men they did elect was thought trustworthy
enough to b appointed President of the Board of Con-
trol ? ar.) What happened a few years afterwards'
Mr. Canning thought right to retire from office, to quit
those colleagues with whom he had long acted, and,
except retainiuing his seat in Parliament, retired into
private life. There was another election, and the free•
men of Liverpool again returned Mr. Canning, no longer
a Minister, to this house. And what happened then I
Why, his Majesty King George IV.--who
wtasatntnt
impear.
ticularly attracted towards Mr:Canning a
pear"
made him Govarnor-General of India. (Heart . ) hlta p
therefore that the freemen of Liverpool were quiteeaga-
cious and intelligent enough to elect a man competent to
be Governor General of India. But Mr. Canning did
A higher and nobler t.y CI m
not accept that office. •