The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-30 00:00:00

agrt,

Purse,
ance to the lb.
the hon. gentleman had
Turkey.
.7ud, as he thought, a very
Mr. S. FITZGERA...T.'D said
put a very comprehensive,
unprecedented question to him, ..end he hoped he might,
without giving offence, express a e!qubt whether any
advantage could be derived, either by ;that house or the
country, from putting questions of sucL it vague and
roving character. He could only say, in that no
communication of the character described had been re-
ceived by Government, and the hon. gentleman would
pardon him if, in the absence of any facts, he refrained
from expressing any belief on the subject.
Alderman CUBITT hoped the Secretary of State for
the Home Department would go on with the London
Corporation Bill. (Order.)
THE MANAGEMENT OF THE CROWN LANDS.
Mr. CAIRD rose to call the attention of the house to
the expenditure incurred by the Department of Woods
and Forests on the Crown allotment of Ilainault, and to
move that it is the opinion of this house that the costs cf
management on the Crown allotment of Hainault, since
the date of the act under which it was disafforested, have
been excessive, and that the management generally past
not been satisfactory. The hon. gentleman stated that
last year the Bross income from the Crewe lands was
about 445,0001., and the surplus paid over to the Exche-
quer, after paving expenses, was 284,0001. The late Sec,
retary to the Treasury, in consequence of some observa-
tions made last year, submitted to the house a return of
the entire expenditure on the late forests of Hainaut t and
entire incomefrom timber, and that return appeared to
him to form in a small compass a satisfactory exposition
of the principles Adopted in themaratgereent ef the Crown
estates.. Hainault forest contained about 3,000 acres; it
was about 10 miles from London, and it was former:y
much resorted to by the inhabitants of Landon for re-
creation. It might be questioned whether any pecuniary
advantages of moderate character could compensate
for the loss of such a means of recreation, and of euch an
open space of forest scenery. Previous to enclasure the
income from the forest was 5001. The matter was taken
in hand by the Woods and Forests, and they had cleared
away the timber, dug up the laud, and let • it for farms,
and the gross revenue for 31 years on lease would be
4,240/. per annum. To obtain this, however, 57,0001.
had been expended ; and if that stem had been invested
at 5 per cent., and the 5001. previously derived horn the
forest added to it, it would be found that in a pecuniary
point of view no advantage whatever had been derived
from the change. He thought a wiser selection of land
might have been made, for there were other tracts of
land, on which an expenditure, wisely laid oat, would
have proved advantageous. The act to disafforest
Hainault passed in' 1851, and in 1852, of the 3,000
acres, 1873 were allotted in property to the Crown. In
addition to this the Crown got the timber on the remain-
ing 1,100 acres, which was worth 21,272/. Some years
ago three gentlemen were appointed to inquire into the
management of the royal forests, and they reported that
tbey entirely approved of the maueeement, and they de-
precated the anxiety of the public for an immediate re-
turn, on the ground that the growing timber was caning
to maturity, and would waen it reached that point give a
treed return. They estimated its value at 6001. an acre.
Teeee terees,L4,l grow'rq- to maturity for the last
800 years, and yet they were told ey Lee geetl.neen s - t
down that if they waited 60 or 80 years longer they
would be found in full maturity. The carne thing was
said to Nelson when he complained of the short supply
of ship timber. They had now cut down one of these
ancient forests, and they had netted by the timber 261.
13s. par acre. Of the expenditure of 67,0001., 4,6741.
had been paid for the expenses of the commission, set-
tling compensation, police and law, and the hewing of
timber ; so that deducting this, the net expenditure on
the 1,900 acres allotted to the Crown was 62,9311., or
33/.25.6d.an acre. There was laid out on drainage 18,0001.
odd, cr 101. an acre, which was an expenditure quite inade-
quate. It was said that they xereelimited to do the work
on short time, and that the roots of the trews in the 'round
aiYorded obstruction ; but there works cou'd only be
dotes cheaper when done on a large seals, and there had
been previously expended 15,0001. in grubbing up the
roote. Ile had no hesitation in saying that of the
101. an acre expended for drainage, an outlay of 61. 10 .
an acre would have been sufficient, and therefore on this
item there had been a loss of 6,4001. The farm buildings
cost 14.0901., but the buildings were ill finished, and
((vial aeconetnodation might have been procured for half
the money. On public roads there had been expended
5,200/. for miles, and that was a good road, but there
were 11 miles of ferns road through the fields which had
been constructed at an expense of upwards of 1,0001.
This road was not mere than 10 feet wide, and there was
no cutting more than 3 feet deep, and the gravel was ob-
tained from au adjoining hill. Yet this road, which cast
one-fifth of a modern rail eta y, was so bad that the tenant
was obliged to pat rocks of trees on it to prevent the
carts sticking in the mad. For 4001., instead of 1,0001.,
an infinitely superior road could have been constructed.
There was then 8 4001. for repairs of roads and fences,
8001. of which ought to have been included in the first
contract. The most startling charge of all was for sur-
veyor's coraraissioip and the superintending of the estate.
The estate was 1,900 acres, and the charge was 7,990',
for 3i years, or 1/. 61. per acre per annum. Nor was
this all, for the surveyor was also receiver on the estate,

Sir J. SHELLEY said that in quoting the tenant's
testimony the Uteder-Secretary should recollect that he
had been only two years in the farm, and had lately
;me to the country. His experience, therefore, di not
go fur -much. He also found Fault with the old-fashioned
method of draining with woolen pipes.
Mr. HAMILTON—What he had said was that they
bad to drain through a wool, not with wooden pipes.
(A laugh.)
Sir J. SHELLEY thought that the most convenient
plan would be to sell these small properties. (Rear.)
Sir J. TROLLOPE also thought that the better way
would have beau to sell the and in small allotmente.
He also was of opinion that :ha rate of drainage was
heavy, as in general Si. was the maximum rate, to which
li. might be added fur clearing away the timber.
Mr. J. WILSON said thattie land could not be sold,
because there was an act of Pa-liament to the contrary.
He contended that the money hid out on Hainault Fo-
reet had been a most profitable transaction, as for the
outlay they had obtained an increased rental of 3,700/.
a year, which was as near as possible 9 per cent., on a
lease for 31 years. Great good was done by bringing
these questions before the hones, bat he trusted the
hon.'tnernblor would not press his motion to a diviiion.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY disputed the calculation of
profit, as 5 per coat, must be allowed for interest on ca-
pital. The report of the commissioners appointed by Par-
humen t sho,eed that every possible abuse was committed
in the management of the Crown lands, and therefore it
was for the public advantage that questons like the pre-
sent should be brought before the house. He hoped.
Ico xever, after the discussion that had token place, the
hon. member would not think it necessary to insist on a
division.
Mr. CAIRD, in reply, reasserted that the whole ex-
pense he had mentioned applied to the 3;000 acres, but
whether 67,0001. or 42,000/. the house meet agree that
it was a wasteful expenditure. That the drainage was
inure difficult than usual was contradicted by the fact
that it had all been done by the steam plough, and the
same charge was made to Government foe ordinary ag •
ricultural laud in Sussex. However, he was satisfied
with the discussion he had obtained, aid would not
press his motion to a division.
ENDOWED SCHOOLS (IRELAND )
Mr. KIRLC rose to call the attention ofthe house to
the report of the committee of endowed schools in Ire-
land, and to urge the necessity of prompt remedies being
applied to the evils and abuses which that report dis-
close. The.hon. member entered into a hiaorical retro-
spect of five large classes of schools in Irelind, referring
to the opinions expressed by the commissioners as to the
manner in which they had been conducted from the
tyriod of their several foundations, and tie perversion
re.., their n f "mirth re the pi-teeny left to
them. In 1695 the 7th et Wileiano ill. ace pee ,ede
daring that no person of the Popish relgion should
teach in say of the schools in Ireland. Tois act con-
tinued in force for 86 years, and was repealed at the in-
stance of no lass a person than Howard the philan-
thropist. After the lapse of time, Sir R. Peel appointed
the Clare-street commissioners for educations( purposes.
In 1818, Hr. Grant, afterwards Lord Gleneg, obtained
a grant fur these schools, and at the same time bore
down many of those barriers which interfered with the
freedom of religious instruction in Ireland. The House
of Commons, iu 1824, issued a commission t) consider
the subject, whose report was referred to a select com-
mittee, whose ultimate decision formed the Is=is of the
system of national education in Ireland. In 1835 Mr.
Wise's committee led to the establishment of tie Queen's
C .11agea. The hon. member then gave a summary
of the operation of these five classes of schotee, and the
value of the lands held by the various societies. For 300
years these schools had engaged the attenton of the
Legislature, but they had no: thriven owing to the want
of proper management. The hon. member then com-
pared the ameuat of annual income derived by these
schools with the xtsut of education provided, showing
that the poor had not derived the benefits of which it
was intend -d they should be the r nil i -nts. The evil !ay
in the constitution of the various boards of managenent,
the members being virtually self-elected, and by rea-
son of their other weighty avocations as dignitaries
in the Church and judges of the land, not elig'nle
for. -past which they filled. There was almost
a total absence of any system of audit
these schools. O.oe of these persons acting in tine capa-
city of auditordeclared to the commiesioners that he chi
not know the meaning or the word "assets." (A laugh.)
The hoc. menber then glanced at the national school
system in Ireland, contending that it had worked ad•
alirably, and that it was the only one which could take
root in that country. He altogether denied teat the
soboo:s felling under the appellation of "nwional" were
t,liable the epithet of godless. It was not true that
the Bible woe exciudeti Item these schools. It was
simply optional with the parents of children whether
they should receive a purely secular or a mixsel religious
and secular education. Ile hoped that the national
system wool be retained in all its integrity, although
lie deplored the circumstance that an inevitable cense-
qua ace of the system was materially to limit the teach-
ing of the chutes or the inculcation of science among
the poor cf Ireland. He thought the time for interfe-
rence on the part of the Government had arrived,
although La was prepared himself to suggest a remedy.
The course he would recommend would be the appoint-
ment of a biard in D':blin, in whom should be vested
the sole eeltrol over the property of the e schools, and
to whose deliberation no ex-officio deliberation should
be elegible The middle classes of Ireland had strong
&ekes upon the Governmeet, fir the old seheols open
to them lad been knocked up by the national system of
eduzatioie Prompt action was required in the matter,
and therefore ttleee auttoried schools ought to be made
available as boon as possible for the education of the
middle cle sea of Ireland. (Hear.) The hon. member
eeeenyeeii by moving that in the opinion of the house a
remedy seelit to be applied to the evils pointed out in
{he repute; el the el:dewed school commissioners of Ire-
land

and had a commission on the receipts, The next chary('
wag 1641. 16;. ld. for commission on the sale of 1,9901.
worth of timber, or 8 per cent.; whilst the next char4e,

for selling 1,800/. worth of timber, wam 5 per cent. The
next item wiz )181. for valuing the timber on the crown

allotment, and it was valued at 36,790/., and sold f...r

48,3691., or 12,000/. mcire than the surveyor's estimate.
Bat this was not the only charge en the timber on the

Crown land, for the nexttcharge was 1,182/. for selliug
the timber, so that the wholsebarge on this timbL r was

`2,1001. Teetotal charge on the land wag nearly 8,0001.
for 3i yeara, but he would be bound to find competent
men who would do it for 590/. a-year He would now
proceed to the se,:ond branch of big 'notion —the ut:satib-
_

h.ctory manner of letting, and the subsequent manage-
ment: of the estate. There wr.e evidently no plan
when the improvement commenced, for it was first pro-
posed to let the land for grazing purposes. It Waft clear
that no one would offer much fur the land for that pur-

puce, and accordingly tho attempt to lot the land hr iti4t

purpose was futi:e,

They then determined to drain and

improve it;and, liaving done so, they ht part cf: the land
for 31 years on lease, at 5 , an acre for the first year, 16i,
for the second year, and for the r-sinainder of the term
235. and intere,t upon money laid eat by the Crown iu
improvements. Tae nc xtyear they let the remainderat 9z.
the first year, 14s. the second year, and 40s. for the re-
mainder of the term. The land let on the second occasion

was, too, the worst part of the land, thOugh it fetched
nearly double the rent, Immediately after the second
letting the tenant, who was a very sagacious man with a
large
.capital, determined to alter the inteutiou which
existed when the land was let to him, and turn it all into a
vast market garden. The commiE,sioners assented to this,
but he did not know whether when they assented they
knew that they undertook a great future responsibility.
A market gardener had claims for manure and other
'things at the termination of the lease which sometimes
equalled the value of the fee simple. In addition, if 'the

Lord NAAS readily admitted that it was scarcely
p yssi we to in,roduce a question more worthy the atter,.
Lion of t)e house. There could be no doubt that the
position of intermediate education iu Ireland wad in a
mo-t unsatisfactory state; uud on that account it was
that a commission was appointed by the late Govern-
ment, it oic:er to invest:uate the subject. The commis.
.sioner3 laid before Parliament a moat vnluminoca report,
and that report disolosed a In ,st extraordinary state of
things with regard to these endowments. The commis-
sioners applied their minds with great energy U.. the
subject, and it was quite certain that they had published

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recollected that there w e r t several considerable items o. f ,
sulraieonenudtbe
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The motion was then -agreed to.
supply yet to be voted.
; gardens. There were similar circumstances connected
SMALL ARMF ; AND THE RIFLE,
1 with the Crown lands, for he found upwards of 91. an acre
the Enfield, Whitworth, Jacobs' and other rifles, had been was paid for draining purely agricultural land in Sussex.
SYthKeeExSperaismkeedrit
Ithfoer of War
vfacriuWegaorf
whether
Col.
continued since last see sion, and whether a report of the Not only did this übiquitous surveyor manage all these
results would be laid u pon the table before the close of estates in all parts of the country, but he should say that
the present session ;wh ether the iron cup at the bottom his income for the last year was not lees than 10,0001. lie
could trace payments to the ex-ent of 5,000/., and there
of the Enfield rifle hal l bad been abandoned, and a
wcoden cup substituteel , and whether the wooden cup were sufficient other transactions shown in the report to
might not be disper.sed with. lead him to believe that the total sum realised by the
surveyor from the Woods and Forests Department was,
pointed, "one cal !eel the small arms committee
Gen. PEEL sae 1 there were two committees ap-
pointed, for last year, not much less than 10,000/. This gentle-
,,
and a
roan, Mr. Clapham, was not a man cf great reputation
had to test the re erits of all descriptions of arms
separate commitf.ee, which had to test the relative merits and eminence, and one who had done gocd service to his
country. The commissioners themselves were probably
of the Whitwort b and the Enfield rises. As regarded
the latter commeetee, a delay arose in consequence of to blame, who, from want of practical knowledge
Mr. Whitworth not having furnished the number of themselves, were obliged to lean for support on practi-
rifles that he was asked for last year. With respect to cal men. The truth was that the management of the
the ammunition, Crown property devolved on an irresponsible agent,
hoe could assure the hon. and gallant
They had a double government in this office as well as
gentleman that there was no question of more import-
ance with reference to the efficiency of the Enfield rifle, in iadian matters—there was the commissioners' office
and Mr. Clapham's, The civil list of her Majesty was
and upon the aim nonition would ultimately depend the
real value of that rifle. The iron cup to which he al-
385,000/. a-year, and if they could increase the income
laded had already been done away with, but, at the
of the Crown lands 10 per cent, they would very nearly
balance the civil list, by the income from the Crown
present moment, W was impossible to do away with the
wooden cup. Exp eriments were now going on, and be land". The Crown lands were in great part precisely of
had no doubt the -.result would be that the committee that description which the great landholders had found
so profitable during the last 20 years, and a similar in-
would report in favour of the simple cartridge without
cup or plug. There -was not the slightest doubt that in crease in the value of Crown lands Might have been ob-
some respects the Whitworth rifle was superior to the twined by better arrangement. (Hear.) Ile believed
t
Enfield, but whether it would be found superior in war that he had shown that in the case of Hainault, which
he could not say, was worth little more than the 150th part of the whole
RETIREMENT OF BISHOPS. royal estates, there was a wasteful expenditure of
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY asked the Secretary of State .
21,000/. ; and secondly, that there had been an unwise
dispasal of the property ; and having shown theaa two
for the Home Dept irtment whether it was in the contem-
plation of her Majesty's things, he with confidence asked the house to agree Majesty's Government tointroduce, durin g his resolution. to
the present or the n ext session of Parliament, any general Mr. LINDSAY seconded the motion.
measure to facilitate the retirement of bishops disabled Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said the resolution which
by infirmity or old age. had been proposed embodied a condemnation of the
Mr. WALPOLE said in the present session it was management of the office of Woods and Fore ts in refe-
certainly not the intention of her Majesty's Government
to introduce such a bill. As regarded the future, this recce to this particular estate of Hainault, and the hon.
was one of the most difficult uestions that Parliament member also proposed by that resolution an express c ns-
q demnation of a gentleman who, he must say, was one of
could have to deal with, and therefore he must decline to the most efficient and indefatigable officers in her Ma•
give any pledge until he had turned the question over in esty's vrvice. He would state to the house very
his mind, and considered whether or not anything could tl the •
ohor y circumstances of the case. The hon. mein-
, be done in this matter,
her b lan by ststiag that the resolution referred to the
THE CORPORATION OF LONDON. forest of Hainault, which comprised 3,000 acres, and
Mr. LABOUCHERE would be glad if the right hon. then he proceeded to speak of an expenditure as to the
gentleman would tell them what course the Government Crown allotment of 1,900 Ames. The fact was that the
intended to pursue with regard to the bill relating to forest of Hainault comprised an area of 17,500 acres. In
the Corporation of the City of Londhn. 1851 an act *ail passed appointing commissioners, whose
Mr. WALPOLE said the sight hon. gentleman would functions were to superintend the letting and improving
remember that that was not strictly a Government hill, of the forest. These commissioners took 1,900 sores in
It was a bill introduced by the late Government. He full satisfaction of the Crown rights, except those rights
had given his best assistance with the view of putting it belonging to her Majesty as a commoner, including corn-
into shape, and the other day he tried to get it into pensation for the timber which was not allotted. Tue act
committee, but unfortunately the attempt failed. He directed that the full expenses of thecommissioners should
must now frankly say that in the present due of the be defrayed by the Woods and Forests, si ho werh to be
session he saw hardly any prospect of the hill passing, repaid out of the timber. The hon. member spoke of the
though he very much regretted the opposition which was expenditure on this 1,900 acres, and set it down at
made to the motion for going into committee. , 67,000/. ; but the fact was that the whole expenditure of
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY begged to ask the right hon. reclamation was 42,015/., the remainder being absorbed
gentleman whether he had not since the discussion to by the commissioners and their functions. Tho 42,015/.
which he had referred received from the Common Coun- made just 21/. 15s. an acre, and out of that 11,415/.
oil a communication, agreed to unanimously, praying went for grubbing, which was very heavy in consequence
that the measure might be proceeded with. of the ground being overrun with hornbeam. This came
Mr. WALPOLE stud he had received such a cone- to Cl. 43. the acre. Before the reclamation the land pro-
munication—whether it were unanimous or not ho duced 500/. a-year, but since the reclamation it had been
could not tell—but within two hours after receiving let at 1/. se. an acre, so that the expenditure of 11,4151.
that communication he received another from the Livery had produced that rent. The expenditure was fer drain-
of London, praying that the bill might not be proceeded age, 81. 19.. the acre, which he admitted was heavy. with, (Laughter.) But the grsund was full of tangled roots, and the tenant
AUSTRIA AND THE PORTE. was willing to pay Si. per cent. for the improvements—a
Mr. G. DUFF wised the Under-Secretary of State tolerable proof that the expense was not excessive. The
for Foreign sleeks whether her Majesty's Government third expense was for buildings, for which the tenant
had been informed of, or believed in, the existence of any paid Cl. per cent., and he had received a letter from the
talent, written or verbal, between Austria and the tenant testifying to the success of the buildings and im-
-hereby the former Power engaged to give assict- prevaments, which he said had transrorrned this rough
--*ter in case of an outbreak in European land into a valuable park. With respect to the payment
of the surveyors, 5,8881., of which the hon. member
complained, a great portion of it was for the disafforest-
ing, and the amount for reclamation was only 2,885/. It
was, in fact, only the ordinary charge of 5 per cent. The
property entrusted to the Woods and Forests amounted
to 300,0001. swear, but of that 80,000/, was in fee farm,
and. 90,0001. was ground rent on loug leases, which could
not be interfered with. Under all the circumstances he
trusted that the house would not agree to a motion which
involved a censure on an important branch of the public
s rvice.