The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-30 00:00:00

FRIDAY

1858. •

insist on your amendment, which strikes out that abso-
lute and imperative condition imposed on the Crown of
selecting for cadetships in the scientific branches of the
army those persons who may have most distinguished l
themselves at the exaniinatioe, and that, too, in the ex-
act order in which they have so distinguished them-
selves. (Hear.) There is another clause as to which
the House of Commons seems to have shared the titisap•
prehensions entertained by some of your lordships. I
allude to clause 54, which was much discused here, and
which requires that whenever any order directing acoial
hostilities to be commenced shall be issued, the feet of
its issue shall be communicated to both Houses of Par-
Lament, In the original provision the communication
to Parliament was to be made within one month from
the date of sending out the order ; but your lortlehips
amended it to three months if Parliament should be sit-
ting, adding at the same time the word, "unless such
order shall be revoked or suspended." If Parliament
was not sitting, then the communication was to be made
within a month after its next meeting. Perhaps the
clause is not sufficiently explicit, because the intention
is that if at the end of three months Parliament should
not be sitting, then within three months after the re-
sumption uf its deliberations the notice in question
should be given. But the House of Commons seems to
have thought the first and second conditions inconsistent
with each other, and it says that the period of three
months does not harmonise with the one month after
the meeting of Parliament, which meeting may take
place immediately after the issue of the order contem-
plated by the clause. That misconstruction existed in
this house, and I regret that words were not inserted
to make the meaning clearer ; but the grounds stated
f r allowing an interval of three months after the
declaration of hostilities were really such as it
would be impossible for the House of Commons to
resist or overlook. These grounds were that the or-
ders might be sent out to India—and recollect it is
with India you are dealing for the commence-
ment of hostilities. They could not be received within
a month in that country, and after their receipt circum-
stances might possibly arise which would prevent the
Governor-General, either from reasons of discretion or
actual inability, from carrying those orders into effect.
He might send home word, "It is quite clear we shall
have to engage in warlike operations, but it is necessary
to tempori-e ; I have not at command sufficient military
resources, and I shall not be prepared to execute your
orders within the next two months." In the meantime,
however, before it was possible to send back this answer
to this country—nay, even before the order itself could
reach India—the clause as it first stood required the fact
that such an order had been issued to be promulgated
and laid before Parliament. The consequence of that
would be that the next mail would take out to India
no as that directions had been given to commence hoseill-
ties, and every country against which such hostilities bad
been ordered would have ample notice of your intention
to make war upon them, although your own Governor-
General mighthave told you that fortwo or three months
he would not be prepared to act upon your instructions. '
Thus, you would be actually giving your enemy, or
rather your intended enemy, full warning of wbat you
were going to do, while at the same time your own instru-
ments had not the means of giving immediate effect to
your directions. No one, therefore, can, I think, doubt
the propriety of the alteration made by your hardships
to cause the fact of such an order having been sent out to
be announced to Pariament not within one month, but
within three issonths after its issue, so as to afford time
for communicating with India, and learning whether or
not theto would be any difficulty in promulgating the
order. Your lordships, as I have already said, have also
inserted in thie clause words providing that if such orders
were suspended or revoked, th• n it would be unneces-
sary to lay them before Parlatment at all. Clearly, if
'hey are not to be acted upon, it would be unwise to in•
form the pers .ns with whom you have to deal that you
ever intended to declare war against them. The clause
then enacts hat these orders shall be communicated to
Parliament, if it is then sitting, within three months.
This wiil give the Government three menthe' grace, at
the expiration of which they will be bound to lay the
order-, they have issued bet ;re Parliament. If, however,
after that interval has elapsed Parliament should not be
sitting, then the Government wal have had the advan-
tage of the three months already given them for the
issue and promulgation of the order, and as soon as the
Legislature re-assembles, or within one month alter its
re-as-embliog, it will be incumbent on them to com-
municate to it the fact that the hostilities had been
ordered. I propose that the clause shad provide 'het
the order shall be communicated to both Houses of Par•
liaisient within three months after the sending of such
order if Parliament is sitting, and if Parliament is not
sitting at the end of such three months, then within one
month next after the meeting of Parliament. That, I
think, would carry out what were your lordship; a ten-
tione. (Hear, hear.) It removes the obvious miscon-
etruction which the House of Commons has pot upon
the clause. With that alteration I think they would be
of opinion that the clause is reasonable and just. I
shell, therefore, my lords, propose, with regard to clause
54, that we do insist upon your lordships' amendments
as altered by the amendment which I prepese to insert
in it. My lords, these are all the objections which the
House of Cainmene have made to the amendments made
by your lordships in the India Bill, and I thought
it more convenient that I should make a general state-
ment with regard to them rather than make a separate
statement on each. My prop nation, therefore, is
not to insist upon your amendments with regard to
the first aed second of these amendments, and also
with regard to the third, so far as it relates to the civil

service, but to insist upon your lordships' amendment,
and to submit it again to the further and more
rate consideration of the House of Commons with re-
gard to cadetships iu the scientific branches of the mili-
tary service ; and also to insist upon your lordships'
amendment with another amendment ( f a clause which
I cannot but think has been mi-apprehended and mis-
understood by the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE—I do not rise for the purpose of

objecting to the course proposed by the noble earl. In
the first place, I entirely agree to the very judicious
course which, under the present circumstances, he has
proposed that we shall take ; and in the second place,
the session is so nearly at an end that I agree with the
noble earl it would be perfectly idle to insist upon all
our amendments. At the same time I cannot help ad-
vetting to the strange conduct of the Government with
regard to this bill. The noble earl, by the fact of his
beihg Prime Minister and leader of this house, by the
exercise of that influence which a Government always
exercises at the end of a session, is virtually master of
the proceedings of this house, and in that capacity I
think he is necessarily bound to watch over the dignity
and propriety of the proceedings of this house. I do
not wish to wandei from the question before the house,
but to illustrate my meaning I roust allude to another
question, which was very recently discussed by this
house—l allude to the Jewish question. In that case
we followed implicitly what was laid down by the noble
earl as the most proper course to be adopted. We on
this side of the houie remonstrated strongly against
certain proceedings connected with the Jewish question
as likely to throw ridicule and a certain amount
of discredit on this house. As soon as the pro,.
ceedings were closed here public opinion certainly
was expressed in every possible way in the
sense that we expected. Of course there was no
help for that. But when the inatteiecame before the
House of Commons we found in the report of their pro-
ceedings that every side of the house agreed in the ob-
jection we had made, and I think this house, as a body,
had a right to expect that some of the members of that
Government which induced us to take the course we
did should have vindicated that course in some manner,
instead of which two of the noble earl's colleagues in th 3
other house remained perfectly silent, and one of the
Secretaries of State expressed his regret that, the House
of Lords having taken a course which they thought
' wrong, did not, at least, act in a straightforward manner.
With regard to that clause to which the third amend-
ment refers, and which relates to competitive examina-
tion, an amendment was proposed to which I strongly
objected. The noble earl said the House of Commons
bad adopted on that sutject a course which he did not
think judicious. But it was not a private member of
the House of Commons who proposed that course. That
clause was proposed by one of the members of her Ma.
jesty's Government, the President of the Board of Con-
trol, and, therefore, by one who was bound to be in
accord with the opinions of the Government on the sub-
ject. When the amendment was proposed I objected
strongly, on the first blush, that it was an amendment
which appeared to me to take away the whole security
which was thought necessary by the President of the
Board of Control. But I was met by what ap-
peared to me a very fair argument a' the time—
that while practically it would not interfere with open
competition as le admission to the civil service it would
at the same time save a great constitutional principle
and prevent an encroachmeet on the prerogative of the
Crown. And to that this house yielded. I
strongly objected to the amendment with regard
to the re-constitution of what will practically be
a secret committee ; but I felt that the noble
earl's authori y on the opposite side was strongly in fa-
vour of the amendment, and I urged every reason which
appeared to me why it was most desirable not to fetter
the Secretary of State. The amendment, however, being
proposed by the noble earl, was naturally carried. Now,
if this amendment was worth anything, it was to have
been expected that her Majesty's Government wculd have
made some effort to complete that which was the work
of the Prime Minister. But not a bit of it. If I am to
believe the reports of the proceedings of the other House
the President of the. Board of Control voted against this
amendment, and stated that in his opinion the amend-
ment was perfectly indefensible. (Hear, hear ) Well,
then, I come to the nest clause. What the House of
C31110:10119 have done with regard to it, I think, rather
bears me out in what I took the liberty of pointing out
on each successive clause connected with patronage—
teat whereas a great outcry was raised against the late
Government as to the imaginary amount of patronage
ehieh they were about to tramfer to themselves, every
single change that has taken place under the direction of
her Majesty's present Government has been to increase
the patronage conferred upon the Secretary of State ;
and; therefore, j am not surprised that the House of
Commons should have insisted on some check being re-
tained upon the exercise of patronage. If your lord-
ships had adopted the course which we on this side of
the House suggested, and which was so strongly sup-
ported by the noble earl the late President of the Board
of Control, you would not now be obliged to abandon
your amendment as to the nomination of the members of
the Councils or the Governor-General and Governors
respectively. I think the House has some reason to com-
plain that that confident communication which they
should for their own sake have maintained has not, at.
all events, been maintained between the members of the

Government sitting in each House in order to keep
up that ceneistency between the proceedings of the
two Melees which, I think, is most importan'• to the
dignity and honour of both Houses of Parliament. With
respect to the amendment proposed by the noble earl as
to competitive exaininati n, I must say that I feel some
pride that the noble earl, after having opposed my
amendment, should now be the person to oppose one
portion of the amendment of the House of C immons.
With regard to the last amendments, I can only say I
feel very grateful to the noble earl for having so very
clearly stated the reasons why we during two stages of
the bill pressed upon him those alterations, and which I
am glad to say, except with a verbal amendment, he in-
tends now to insist upon. I have stated why we on this
side of the house think we have good reason to complain
of the condact of the Government with respect to this
bill, but at the same time it is far from my intention to
object to the course proposed by the noble earl.
Lord CAMPBELL was perfectly astonished at the
passionate affectien which the House of Commove had
recently shown for competitive examination. They had
actually gone wild on that subj rot. (Laughter.) Com-
petitive examination might most usefully be applied to
the House of Commons itself. (Renewed laughter ) He
thought discriminating examination was far preferable to
competitive examination. The former system was
applied even to the judges of the supreme court of
justice in Scotland. He should propose a sort of dis-
criminating examination for the House of Ceenmons ;
and, instead of hon. members in that house pushing their
passion for competitive examination to such an extrava-
gant degree as even to interfere with the prerogative of
the Crown in the appointment to military commands, he
recommended that they should direct their minds to con-
sidering whether a discriminating examination in their
own cases might not be desirable. (Hear, and a laugh.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH —Although I per-
ceive with the greatest possible concern and regret the
amendments which have been made by the House of
Commons, I do not feel disposed to comment upon what
took place in that house with respect to them. I admit
that on all great questions the largest amount of ability
is displayed by the gentlemen who lead the debates in
that house, and, although I most deeply regret the opi-
nion which appears to be generally entertained there
with respect to competitive examinations, yet I should
be sorry.to attribute to the members of the other house
any but the most conscientious convictions of duty in
adhering to their opinion. I shall nut trouble your lord-
ships with any general observations, but shall proceed
at once to the questions at issue. If it be true, as the
House of Commons state, with regard to the first point,
that it is impossible to defend the amendment which
your lordships have made, I can only regret that the
Hearse of Commons did not give better reasons for in-
sisting on the bill as it stood when they sent it up to
your lordships ; for I find that they declare, in the first
place, that the submitting of the secret despatches to
two members of the Council would tend to divide the
responsibility of the Minister. My lords, it could no
by possibility have that effect, because the members of
the secret o memittee are constituted only for the purpose
of inspecting the secret despatches, and they would have
ne power of objecting to those despatches or of pre-
venting their being sent They would have no other
power, in fact, than that of offering in a copious and
confidential manner their opinions with respect to them
if they happened to differ from the Minister. I will
give you an example, the application of which I am
sure you will admit. The other day I wrote a
de,patch with regard to Lord Canning's proclama-
tion. That despatch was in the hands of the secret
committee for six days. No objection was takes to ia
and no representation was made to me on the subject ;
leu, if I had 'stated that as a reason for my responsi-
bility being considered to be divided—if I had endea-
voured to shelter myself under the circumstance of that
despatch having been sumitted to the Secret Committee,
I don't know what the result of such an excuse might
have had with your lordships, but I know that I should
leave been considered generally to have acted in a spirit
of poltroonery. Jt would have been said that I had not
the slightest ground to stand upon, that my responsibility
was complete, and that the circumstance of the despatch
having been submitted to the Secret Committee in no
way relieved me of that responsibility. (Hear.) It is said
that the hill will create a new Secret Cemnaittee, which,
under the new form of government will not be necessary.
But. my lords, the real change effected by this bil in the
practical government of India is not great. With the ex-
ception of the use of the Queen's name, which I deem
very valuable, and the nomination by the Crown of the
Gevernor-General and Governors, there. is no great prac-
tical alteration in the mode of governing India, especially
since it has been determined to continue in the Council
half of the existing Court. How, then, can it be said
that the slight change which has taken place affords any
reason for discontinuing the Secret Committee ? Ia my-
opinion, there is no change; however great, in the go-
vernment of India which could have dispensed with the
necessity for submitting the secret despatches to some
second mind. This is the real value of the committee.
It is advisable in the course of human nature for any
man, be he whom he may, to submit everything of great
importance that he writes to some one other mind. Be
that mind an inferior mind, let the person possessing it
have no power whatever over h•s proceedings, still there
is an advantage in being compelled so to communicate;
and that advantage I desire to maintain. (Freer.) Re-
member, my lords, that this provision for a Secret Com-
mittee was inserted in the original law for the govern-
ment of India by no common men; but that it was put
there by Mr. Pitt and the first Mr. Dundee, two of the
ablest men who ever swayed the councils of this country.
Be assured that they did not do it without good reason.
The President of the Board of Control had then, as
now, colleagues to whom he could refer ; but it was
thought advisable that persons connected with India,
and who could understand the real bearings of the case,
shouli at all times have despatches of importance sub-
mitted to them, and should have the power of expressing
an opinion with regard to them. These were my rea-
sons for desiring the introduction of that amendment.
However, I agree with my noble friend that it is not of
so muoh importance as that it would be desirable to risk
the passing of this measure by insisting upon it in oppo-
sition to the opinion of the other house. But then comes
another amendment of far greater importance, which, in
reality, goes to the whole constitution of the Indian
government, and I confess that it is with very great
regret that I find that my noble friend does not intend
to insist upon it. The House of Common. say that it le
undesirable to increase the patronage of the Minister
without providing a check upon its exercise ; but in
this bill they have greatly increased the patronage of
the Minister without any check whatever. They have
given him the power of creating the Governor-General,
the Governors, and the members of the Council also.
They have given him a great increase of patronage in
the disposition of the establishment of the India House
and likewise in the nomination to cadetships, without
' any check at all. But that on which I insisted is not
patronage. Appointments to the Council in India are
not appointments which a Government would e er ven-
ture to look on in the lignt of patronage. They will only
he made in the exertese of the highest function of the
' executive Government—that of providing the very best
persons to assist in carrying on the most impor•
cant branches of administration in India. No Go-
vernment would ever venture in the way of a job, upon
appointments of that dcHoription. But this I know,
that it is most desirable that there should not be a

double government ;n India. Under the bill as it stands
now the Government name the Governor-General, while
tee Council will name the councillors of the Governor-
General. The Council may take total.y different views
with respect to the most important matters from those
taken by the Governor-General. Beaten here, by the

power of the Secretary of State in the Council, they may,
through their appointments to the Council in India,
very materially affect the conduct of public affairs ; for,
recollect that the Governor-General, though he has the
power of overruling his Council in extreme cases affecting
the highest interests and safety of the State, has cot the
power which is given to the Secretary of State by this
bill of overruling his Council on all occasions. It is only
in extreme cases that he can do so, and there might be
in his Council gentlemen opposed to the Governer-
General who might reduce h:s authority to contempt by
c mtinually thwarting him ; yet the power of appoint
ing those gentlemen you leave to the Council here. I
think this a most material error. I hen always deemed
it necessary that all persons in India should look to the
head of the Government alone, or, if not to him, to the
head of the Government here. What would be the posi-
tion of my noble friend near me if the principle proposed
to be applied to the Governor-General were carried out
in my noble friend's caee—and if he, placed by favour
of her Majesty's confidence in the position of First Mi-
nister of the Crown, were to have all his colleagues
chosen by the noble lords who now sit opposite? (" Hear,
hear," and a laueh.) Yet that is exactly the position in
which you place the Governor-General of India, who has
to conduct matters as important as those which fall to
the lot of my noble friend. I think, therefore, that this
is a most serious error in the constitution of the new
Government of India, and that it perpetuates all the
vices of the old administration. You re-appoint to the
Council half of the existing Court of Directors, with
all their traditional policy, and you enable them to
appoint the councillors of the Governor-General although
it is notorious that according to their old prjudices
every Governor-General is regarded as an enemy un-
less he adopts a course of subserviency to the
Court. cannot agree, therefore, with the Commons in
their objection to this stains. - It would he idle to think
of dividing the house upon the subject, but I cannot give
my assent to it because I believe that it will lead to great
evils. Then comes a very important question with re-
spect to which my noble friend concedes one-half, and
insists upon his own amendment as to the other half.
When he makes a distinction between the military and
civil services I think he has good ground to stand upon,
There is a material difference between them. When com-
petitive examination was first established for the Civil
Service, I admitted that there was considerable advan-
tage in disconnecting the Civil Service from the Court of
Directors, and that advantage still will continue to extet
to a certain extent although the Court will bays become
a Council. Feeling, therefore, that a great political as
well as social revolution is thereby accomplished in
India, I do not object to my noble friend's determina-
tion not to insist un his amendment on this point, but I
rejoice that he insists upon it in the other. My lords, I
cannot but regret that the House of Commons has fallen
into what appears to me a dangerous error with respect
to open competitive examination as the only road by
which for the future ethic:he-eon is to be obtained into the .
military service of India. (Hear.) I am quite sure that
there is not only in the House of Commons, but also out
of doors, a great error as to the classes which are to be
benefited and injured by this great innovation. The
stablishmtnt of competitive examination does not in the
smallest degree affect your lordships' house—it does not
affect your relatives or connections, nor the connections
of the great landed gentry of the country, I regret to

say that members of your lordships' house and of the
other h-use and the first gentry in the country, have
net erelesvour,d—except in very rare_ ca es— o obtain
fur their sons situations in the service of the Indian Ge--
verc went. I regret it oeeply, because I know it is by far
the best field which any man can have fur the exercise of
his abili, iee, and it aft )rds the highest rewards for the
display of the hiehe-t virtues. I regret that this
house has not participated in the glory which has been
rsfiscted by late events on the servants of the Indian
Goverernent. But I desire, my lords, to retain these ap-
pointments in the class which has hitherto held them.
That class is the class of educated gentlemen which oc-
cupies the centre of society, which extends on the one
side to the confines of the class whi, h lives by buying and
selling, and on the other to the class of which your lord-
so.ips are members—persons who have the means of pro-
vi ling for their sons otherwise than by professions of a
lucrative description, of doing that for them which I
think is the greatest misfortune than can befall any man
—enabling them to live in idleness. (Hear.) This class
embraces clergymen, country gentlemen ofsmall incomes,
lawyers and all the learned professions, officers in the
army and navy, and all that great class of persons hay-
ieg a mediocrity of fortune, but of the highest and most
cultivated ihtsllect. It is from that class which it is in-
tended by this clause to take away these appointments:
In sanctioning this principle Parliament. has introduced
propet4 qualification for eppointments in the public
service, because there is no doubt that it is by paying
hi ,4111 y those who cram candidates for these appointments
that they will be obtained. It is only by the expenditure
of large sums in this way that it will be possible for the
future to enter the service, and the gentlemen who have
hitherto obtained appointments have not the means of
metering this expenditure. But the education obtained
in these cramming colleges is not the highest species of
education—that which is obtained at home by the exam-
ple and conversation of good parents is by far the highest.
You cannot compare for a moment the education which
the tms of clergymen and officers get with the education
obta•ned by the sons of rich grocers or linendrapers,
who will be successful in these competitive examina-
tions. Depend upon it this is a great and most in.
jurious social revolution. I cannot view it in any
other light. I look upon it as fraught with the
greatest danger, and I do trust that the House of
Commons, on reconsidering its present opinion, will
be induced to acquiesce in this amendment. I rejoice
that for the present my noble friend will insist upon
the amendment which he made in committee, though
that amendment is not altogether sati.factory to me., I
vote against the whole clause. I desire to maintain the
Indian army as it is, to draw it altogether from the same
sources, which are perennial founts of everything that is
noble, and everything tba, is virtuous. (Hear, hear.)
Can we desire to have men in the public service superior
to those who have he derived from that source?
(Rear, hear.) It is now, to ), when the scientific branches
of these services have in the highest degree distin-
guished themselves and performed the greatest public
service, that we are to change altogether the system
by which appointments are made, to deprive them of the
hope of being followed in the same noble career by their
cons, to destroy their prospects of being able to provide
for their families, and not only thus to i jure them,
hut, as they must understand it, to ii.ffict on them a
great offence. These, my lords, have always been my
opinions, and it is impossible for me to refrain from ex-
pressing them. (Rear, hear.)
Their lordships then resolved not to insist on their
amendments on clauses 27, 28, 29 30. and 32 ; but to
'chat on their amendment on clause 34 (relating to the
sdmiesien to the scientific branche,.).
0o consideration of the Commons' reasons for dis-
agreeing with their lordships' ameriUme .ts on the Turn-
p ke Trusts Arrangement Bill, and tl,e Vaccination (Ire-
land) Biel, it wins resolved not to insist upon the amend-
mevtg.

The Art-Unions' Indemnity Bill was read a third
time and passed.

Tile R;formatory Scho li (Ireland) Bill was read a
thirl tiwe.

The rer,rt of amendments on the Metropolitan Local
Nlanagernent Bill was received,
The Draughts on Hankers Act Amendment Bill was
read a third time and passed.
On bringing up the report, without amendments, on
the Civil Bilis, &c. (Ireland), Act Awenduient Bitl, a
,Lort di,cu:sion took place, but ultimately the amend-
a,ents were agrH.d to, and the report was received.
NEW WRITS BILL.
_

This bill was read a third time and paned, with two
amendm,nti proposed by 1,-,rd EVERSLET.
VACANT SPACE AT ST. PAUL'S.

The Earl of FIARRINGTON, who had a notice on
the paper to put a question to the Government respect-
ing tit, plot of Lr. uud on the east. side of St. Paul's,
winch was adverti,ed to be butt on, said he would
postpone his que-tion in the meantime, when
The Earl of DERBY Paid it was no use putting
any i-uch question, as the Government had no infor-
mation whatever on the sut.j.ct. (A laugh.)
PASSING TOLLS.

Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY, having presented
a petition from merchants, shipowners, &c., of South
Shields, relating to passing tolls and local dues, asked
whether it was the intention of the Government to intro-
duce any measure upon the subject during next session I
Tae Earl of DONOUGH MORE, without pledging
himself upon the subject, hrped to be able to introduce
such a measure in the ensuing session of Parliament.
Their lordships then adjourned.