The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-27 00:00:00

185 S.

mere waiter of course, which might out t e provoi
at !..erly imprectayeolea althooeh it has_ been iii prec-
tice for centuries. Now, Ido not knoe at:`-
which apeeare to t 1 more uaterial and inere simple than
the- m lee ,n which the general administratiiii of this
country is carried on by a committee of the Privy
Cour cil called the Cabinet. That seems to us the
most natural institu,ion possitle, the legitimate pro-
duct-of Peiliamentary government ; but if it were now
prop° ed f r the first time, and I were in
tion, I think I could shoe/ that of alt absurd invention-,
of all impracticable suggestions, that was the most ridi-
culoust. I ehould say, "Only think of taking men out
of one House of Parliament, and then taking men out cf
the other House—these two houses being assemblies be-
tween which there is not by any means entire sympathy,
but which are, on the contrary, often in conflict. Only
think of making a man a Cabinet Minister because be ie
connected with the agricultural interest, another be-
cause he is connected with the mercantile interest ; only
think of making a man a Cabinet Minister because he
can make a speech." (Laughter.) Every ono would
say directly, "This is a form of government the most
absurd ever known, it cannot wcrk, and the person
who would propose it is not entitled to the public confi-
dence." But if it be added that the Government of
the country thus constituted shall consist only of men
who sit in the House of Lords or the House of Colt-
rnone, what declamation would there not be against such
a special qualification? Wouid it not be said, "That
is a plan by which you prevent many clever men eho
shoal i be in the Government from forming a part
of it. The absurd and heterogeneous institution yru
propose would shut out Mr. Hallam, Mr. Grote, and
Mr. Mill—it is totally impossible such an institution
should work at all." Yet it does work on the whole
very Fat sfactorily. (Hear, and laughter.) Now, Sir,
although I ep-ak with becoming diffiden e on a subject
like that of the government of India, of which I am
bound to say, from all that has passed during the last
two months, I cannot but feel there does not exist in this
house er in the country that mature opinion— (hear,
bear)—that mature opinion which should acconsparty,
and always has accompanied in this country, the solu-
tion of a grave question. Still I cannot but agree, from
what I have observed here, tbat a majority of thus
house are in favour of a council to assist the new
Minister of the Crown. But, sir, if they are in fa
your of a council, surely they must be in favour of a
real council. (Hear, hear.) Now, that in the preseet
sy item of the Government of India in England there
are great faults lam the last man to deny. Many
of them are acknowledged even be the members of that
Government. But that there are also great merits no
one can dispute—(hear, bear)—and it does not require
the assent of this house to prove that Iy:int—the
existence and the maieteuence of the Indian empire
demonstrate that satisfactorily. What are the qualities
arid excellencies of the East India direction, which have
',ever been questioned, but which are universally ac-
knowledged! The knowledge that exists there,---(hear)
—the experience that exists there, the aptitude to deal
with all forms and subjects of Indne administration.
(Rear.) Those are the qualities that made the govern-
ment of the East India Company successful, and which
counteracted the evil effects of delay and divided power,
(Hear.) Therefore it appears to me that if you resolve
to have a council, it should be a real council, and should
possess those elements which the Court of Directors has
been eminent for. (Hear.) I say, in the first place such
a council ought to be numerous. Ido net think the
any one who ha- investigated with attentioe ail tie; mat-
ters that come under ha consideration of the present
Court of Directors can believe that they could be effi-
ciently dealt with by a limited number cf mete nomi-
nees, as the noble lord proposed. (Hear.) All those
great subjects of business—to some of which I have al-
luded, and which I wi4 not weary the house by &scrib-
ing in detail—cannot satisfactorily be ranged under less
than eight distinct heads, requiring the aid of c trninit-
teee to administer them. You may put two or three
subjects together, and thus reduce tie number of com-
mittees, hut there are eight considerable heads of out i•
dess which require the intervention of committees—if
we are to have an effective council. Committees for the
government of a depenoenee so distant provide those
qualities of criticism and control which never can be ex-
pected frees a single individual. A -Ingle iudividualis a
mere administrator, and becomes a mere clerk ; but
if you want a council you toast have c fl:PnitteEs, and if
you want committees for the macaeement of the affoiis
relating to-the Indian army, to Indian finance., t Indian
judicial establishments, to our dealings with ea,- iv,
princes, to the home government of India, and oilier
important subjects, you must necessarily have a nume-
rous council. (Hear, hear.) Well, if you are prepar,d
to agree to a council considerable in number=, are you
prepared at once to say the Crown shall nominate the
whole of them ? I think that would be entrusting to
tho Crown a power which the jealeus feeling usually
pervading the house would make us hesitate to concede.
(Rear, hear.) Ido not wish upo:t this occasion to enter
Into any inquiry as to what should be the exact number
of the council, but for the sake of argument I will as-
sume that the number should be that proposed in the
bill which I had the honour of introducing—namely, H.
Are you prepared to entrust the nomination of those 18
councillors to the Crown I Wear, hear.) I believe such
a course would be unwise and dangerous—one vel Lb I
could never approve. Teen you come to the plan of no-
mination, to a certain extent. Let us assume that the
Crown shall nominate one-half the council—say nine.
We proposed that while the Crown should noinipate
one-half of the council, security shoule be takes that the
nominees should be efficient men—that is to say, they
should be men who had largo experience of India, that
they should be men who pos-essed the kn .wledge which
would enable them to give to the Minister for India iu
England complete infermatiee upon ail eultjerets which
corn- under the notice of the council. We reposed ar-
rangements which would have insured that Le civil ser-
vices of the three presidencies to the great Governineets
and to the great armies of India should be represnet,d
in this council. It has been alleged that these restric-
tions were unwise. (Hear, hear.) It has been ell-ged
that by insisting upon those conditions yen roust shut
out of the council very able men .oho otherwise might
be placed upon it. Undoubtedly you would. It you
make a general arrangement there may be e xceptions
which you will have lust reason to regret. But are you
to legislate for exceptions? Are you not to
look at the great object of your legislation, which, in
this assumed case; is that the council shall be a real come.
cil, possessing adequate knowledge and experience, and
are you not to take steps to secure that object ? Ate you
not to see that the Government upon any question re•
lacing to the Punjab, Cr to Saluda, or to -the Soteliern
Provinces, shall be certain to find in the council men w ho
upon those subjects can give the beet and soundest ad-
vice? (Rear, hear.) I think that was a wise aid pru-
dent arratigetuent. (Hear, hear.) When I an) told that 1
some men might by those means be excluded from she
council of India, allow me to inform the buss what
would be the average number of iodividuals from whom
a selection could be made, who have been connected
with the great armies or civil services of that empire.
The number of persons who have filled the highest offices
in Italia would probably not be less than 80 ; and are we
to believe that if the Minister for India in this country
had to told ler each of those special qualifications from
among not less than 80 men who have all occupied the
highest offices in council or in war, he would tot be able
to find men of very distinguished merit ? To say that lie
would not is the most preposterous conclusion to which
we could arrive. But lam told in the manifesto of the
East India Company that this proposition was the worst
proposition of the kind, because it represented class is-
terests. Now, I must say I was never more surprised
than when I heard an objection raised to this pier), which
is not insisted on in the resolutions, though it is quite
open to be proposed in committee. I must say I was per-
fectly surprised that on the part of the East India Com-
pany this objection should be urged, that we were by this
plan representing class interests. I have heard in this
house often enough, and in other places, that nothing is
more baneful to a state than class legislation. That I can
understand. But what is class legislation I It means legis-
lation in favour of a class, because in tine assembly where
the legislation takes piece that class preponderates. I
agree that that is legislation of the most vicious character.
But the results of the representation of class inte:ests
would not be the same as class legislation is likely to
leaf t t. It would naturally lead to exactly different con-
sequences, inasmuch as the premises are exactly con-
trary ; and I have always heard it maintained that no
principle of popular representation is more sound than
the representation of classes. (Hear, hear.) Is this the
place where we should maintem a different doctrine!
Ara not we who are some of us members for comities,
some for towns, and soate for universities, all of us re-
presentatives of class interests ? And I want t, know
what has made our Parliament so successful and so fa-
mug but the circumstance that it has always been an
assembly which represented class interest'. (Cheers.)
Well, Sir, so far therefore as regards the construe ion of
this Council on the principle of nomination, I do main-
tain that if that principle of nomination be adopted by
the Crown it should be limited, and that if yen have a
numerous and real council it should not t xtend beyord
one moiety of the members of that Ceuecil. How are
you to obtain the other I I mention this subject because
If we can arrive at a conclusion on that point by the
time wl* i we are to decide on the resolutions which will
soon be before the house we shall find our discussion
much facilitated. I say, if you have this Council consti-
tuted with a power of nomination by the Crown to be
exercised to the extent of one-half of it, how are you to
obtain the other I can see no means of obtaining men
of the character necessary for taking part in the govern-
menth of India—men possessing independence and high
qualities, together with experience and special
inci.know-
ledge, unless you have recourse to the elective
rsrvery
ple. (Hear, Lear.) But, Sir, the elective princ,
Pr:sel that a
much ot-j cied to. We hear it is unconstitui
trted by the
Royal and salaried councillor should
popular voice. Well, Sir, I admit the i
of encountering any argument which
c n-titut onal objection, I have nev any cedo
uel
fit, y:
than anything
" un-Engesh," more beflies
',Won of that epithet. It is onde; which, lebea'axesceesnedps et° ndt
fiteh term
u,tionet found
else. (A laugh.)len t a
R oßettatl
wanhda t saarlea rivte de
t question ?
al n in seat
practical
reatest anomaly that has
dealing official
waitnbo,masalousTlhtai freely t h
Are we not dealing with the g
existed in modern tines—theh
.hat company—what pyttonuy
not— w
shuastpiesntoheedcht
hae-
East India Company I
Crown order to delegate it 10
arEVbanx.cheetical elective ctoitisivf vetiebt psecoow:Mhheaot committee ealotcftcteateehrree?oefr(tH ear.) What are the members
of the Couit of Directors? Are they not in the language
ef your laws the trustees of the Crown, and do they not
receive salaries when elected ? And what is there me re
unconstitutional in a royal and salaried council than in
a royal and salaried trustee I (Cheers.) Well, I thiek
twhhitchthcaatninoatnbe“mtjaie maintained. But, if the'ihtthee councillors areproiaciple
to be elected, by whom should they be elected ? (Hear.)
Sir, in the resolutions on the table we have indicated
t as source from which they are to be elected in our opi-
cif; and let me say one word about that. Now, ,Ahat-

ever may be tee f.ti't4 of the East India direction, all
will afltui' thl‘t by "tile limited and ridiculous," as the
rt:eieilvt for Tiverton dEscrib,d the con-
Aituerey'that preduces them, very able and eminent
!nen hove been elected into that council. • No man car;
urge it iv; an argument for the destruction of the. East
India Company that the East India direct rs haVe been
ii.etfic-!eue men. On the contrary, it is notorious that
those wen, elected by this "limited and ridiculous con-
stituency." have been on the average tar above the usual
rate e f public men in point of,ability atid intelligence.
(Hear.) Well, then, we have troposed a. constituencji to
elect a certain .rumber ef persons of a characier.analo-r
gous to that constituency which at present(xlstsintlhas
for so long a period produced such efficient representa-
tives, but infinitely improved in two great respenti: Ia
the first glace, it is much more numerous; and in the

coed, it is infinitely more varied. I have got apaperlieta
with which I shall not trouble the house—drawn up
with great care, which has been placed in my hands since
I had the honour of ietroducing the bi.l which emanated
from this side of the house; and it appeals from this
documeet that the constituency to which we proposed
to delegate the power of returning the elective mesUbers
of the Indian Council would in number Lave been he.
tween 7,oooand 8,000, and have represented 59,000,000 Z
apiforfi eel t'F': el r hear
) all a oi'fd as
i t is capital nciwnsvh:eliieztedu'
heedlln) hen.
which
Ca
b(e?rieturs) ged But t
against thereis an
new
is, that it will be impossible to canvass them. (Hear.)
4s hear," says the hen. gentleman ; but what was
the great arumeut used against the Cempany when we
renewed the charter in 1853 ? True it was that very able
men en the whole were elected by the constitueecy
Ineterised by the noble lord (Lord Palmerston) as
" limited and esdiculous ;" but it is not the less. true, as
was then urged, that that constituency did entail on
those who solicited their suff,ages a condition of affairs
so degrading that the most eminent men would not sub-
mit to it. (Cheers) The difficulty ascribed to our new
constituency is, that it will be impossible to canvass it. I
think that is one of its greet recommendations. .1
think
it would be a great improvement on the existing state of
things that men who aspire.l to sit in the Indian Coun-

oil should eimp!y issue their addresses to the constituercy
and stand on their character, and on that alone (Cheers.)
In devising the construction of this Itoyal Council, which
is the great question that must engage the attention,
and the deep attention sf this house, if they mean to
legislate with effect for India, we bad to consider whe-
ther it Nicas tot important to bring the effect of English
pinion upon that special Indian knowledge with which
by the proposition to which I have adverted we had

amply furnished the C,;uncil. "Mess .this could . bra
ffected the inconvenience and the aril were-obvious.
Men, it was said, who had rerved in the military and
civil services in India might be gifted with great intellie
Bence and possess great kno 7% ledge, but, born intim; abufM3
of a system, they are nut sensible of their existence.. If,
on the other hand, you send to your Indian Government
wttE, it, )
(a ge
onegulhi i edEhe tuhu
your
oonl
dust.
brny iaoruffe
protectionaathi ed
affairs,
only;olo eou
rubeegyi
cannot
ptinto
odt Englishes onebes
secure
fpe
ee
el
ti ne
ewo htv i
ee d og
en
i
obtain that
tot the
redress
inhabi-
tants of ledia, for any grievance which they may suffer.
On the other hoed, if you have a merely Euglnit ele-
ment, you have the consequences which must result from
the manners, habits, and the laws of the people of the
various nations of India being outraged. Yoa have die-
tut b nee and di-affection. You must cotnhiue both the
con,ervative and r forming e.ements to that there may
be a due bre!arce of the advantages arid qualities of both,
e;pecially cf Indian knowledge and English opinion.
(Hear, hear.) Itqw is that to be done? Who are to
be elected ? You could hardly propose to elect members
of council from the agricultural interest. The agricul-
tural class has in no respect an ire.tact or immediate in-
terest, in the welf ere c f India. If India were lost to-
morrow it would be nothing more to the agii.tultural in-
terest than it wouli be to the great b3dy of the people
from tho general impoverishment of the community.
11-
‘e.
ea r ,us who
an bear.)instan t Butar)d theimmediaterehre iutertetPelBans in amongthe wellbeing

of India, arid to whom the good government of India is
oljtet of the tint nccßssity, because they send their
manufactures to the population of that cAintry, and on
it they must depend for their moot important raw mate•
riali. (Hear.) They have a positive and instant inte-

rest in the good goverutnent of India, because tilt), can-
not have the ppulation of that country as good oust:-
mars unless they are well governed. (Rear.) If there
qe wawing a proof of the. truth and soundness of what I

state, lock at.what Lai been the cour€e cf what is called

Indian reform in this country. Where was the question
of Indian reform first I rought f irward ? Have the people
of England eves cared one jot about reform in India'?
No ; and fur the simple reason, which I have before
stated to the house, because the people of England do
not pay for India—(hear)—because so long as Indian
finance is sepaiated from English finance, and so longest
the people of Et:Wand do not pay in consequence if the
misgovernment of that country, they will care nothing
for Indian reform. (Hear, hear.) But a cry for In-
dian reform did come, and whence from From Lauca-

. _
,hire. (1-I,ar.) The people thre knew very well that
if the resources of India were exhauvted by unjust and
impolitic wars, that if those resources were not developed
their trade must suffer, and their prosperity be affected,
and tht.,rt fore it was from that part of the cquLtry that
the cry for Indian reform came, which said, Give us a
Government that will Bemire for US opulent customers,
at who will return for our rnanuf,ectured articles plenty
of the raw material. (Dear, hear.) Indian reform, though
it involves some ( f the highest considerations that can
occupy the minds uf statesmen, and even touch the heart

f nations, has never for a moment occupied the mind
but c f a c:auparatively diminutive circ'e—those engaged
in the great seats of commerce and manufactures in this
country. We-therefore thought it, was a wise and expedie
ent proposition, as I believe it to be sti.li, to bring repre-
sentatives of these interests into the Indian Council.
(Hoar.) I shall not now touch on the constitutional objec-
tion, because that was disposed of in reference to the In-
dian constituencies, and it is not mere unconstitutional
to he elec.ed by Indian constittuencies than by those we
propose in this instance. (Hear.) In coming to the con-
clusion that the great seats of trade should, to a certain
degree, be represented, we could not confine ourselves to
toe pedantry of selecting only those places that were
most remarkable for their commercial relations with
India. (Hear.) As became statesmen a e bad to core Ller
the claims of all the three nations of which this united
empire is composed ; and, first, we proposed that the city
of L.;ndon should be represented in the council. We
were not unmindful of the anomalous position of the c ty
of Loud •:n with regard to its metropol tau districts ; but
when legi4Ating on such a matter as this you must take
the Ina trials be!ore you. (dear.) The city of London
was the great and ancient emporium of this country ;
its port '•he great seat of trade, its relations with Indian
commel ce close and extensive, and if we had attempted
to deal on a large scale with the whole metropolitan
population the whole scheme would have fallen to the
ground. (Hear, hear.) Tutu we took the greatest
commercial city in Scotland—one having very large
relations with India. But, indeed, it would be
impossible to make a proposition of any kind without
acknowledging the claims of India. I should like to
know who would have made a proposition to pass over
Ireland. I can fancy the indignant invective with which
such a prop; sal would have been re ceived ; but inas-
much as we passed over the capital of Scotland the
capital of Ireland could not be offended because it was
not included. (Hear.) We took in its stead the great
and prosperous town of Belfast, which at this moment
has no consiocrable relations with India ; but between
all lama manufacturing and commercial towns there is
a sympathy that binds them together—Manchester, for
example, sympathizing with Belfast, and Belfast with
Manchester—Liverpool with Glasgow, and Glasgow
aga'n with Liverpool. (Hear.) We proposed to have
these three cities—London, Glasgow, and Belfast—
represented in the council, and to these were added
those special seats cf industry that depend more upon
India than any other interest in this country—Man-
chester and Liverpool. (dear, hear.) How can the
representatives c f these places be chosen I I now come
to the great objection that is felt rather than urged in
this House. It has been suggested to me over and
over again since I made that proposition that in the
Chambers of Commerce and the municipalities of each
of those towns we might have found a sufficient con-
cy for our purpose. I think I need net inform
the House that this expedient had occurred to us before ;
but no one can maintain that a Chamber of Commerce,
composed as it is of the most fleeting and evanescent
material+, can be taken as a constituency. (Hier.) And
as regards the municipalities it was obvious to us that
they would only be the means by which the patronage
of the council would be divided among a small number
of amities in the great towns ; and therefore.we availed
ourselves of that macilinery which was ready at hand,
and which has been stigmatised with so much alacrity
in
this House and in other places—viz., theoPt able:raid fmntrY
constituencies. (Hear, hear.)
lonav•ehnut I have heard
arguments again, t that
proposition
ded argument. I have
heaheard
somethingeve
reylsephwrVechohf coassnuutPeturnely and every epithet
upon that proposis
° whom we wish to commitof indignation poured
to
ybody, in every place, and on
every occasion,
tion and upon the body
that trust. (Hear.) Eer
dtvotte astonished -that 13
called a t„.pounsedeeTeshould for a moment be wintartuswted
franchise. (Cheers and laughter from the with this rr
Mi-
nisterial benches.) Nor can I forget, arid never shall I
forget, the almost awe-struck tones wish one hon. mem-
ber rose to ask me if I really and seriously designed that
this duty should be intrusted to the freemen of Liver-
pool. (Laughter.) Oct that subject I would only wish
to-night to offer the result of my reflection and observa-
tion. I cannot fir a moment attempt to compete with
that power cf sarcasm and invective with which the
great body of the constituency of England, aid especially
of the great commercial towns, hate been treated by
the Liberal party. (Cheers and laughter.) But I remem-
ber that s,ote 40 years ago the freemen of liverpeol
were ca led upon to exercise their trust and eh ct a mem-
ber of Parliament, and that they sent to this ho,. as Mr.
Cs.nuir g. (Coecrs.) And e hat did we do in this house
when we got Mr. Canning here Why, we made him
as Loon a; possitle President of the Board of Control.
(dear.) And can the freemen cf Liverpool not kiln-
tiu-ted with electing a member of the Indian Council,
when a ram they did elect was thought trustworthy
enough to b! appointed President of the Board of Con-
trol ? (H, ar.) What happened a few years afterwards /
Mr. Canning thought right to retire from office, to quit
those colleagues with whom he had tong acted, and,
except retainining his seat in Parliament, retired into
private life. There was another e.ection, and the free-
men of Liverpool again returned Mr. Canning, no longer
a Minister, to this house. And what happened then !
Why, his Majesty. Bing George IV.—who was not par-
ticuihrly attracted towards Mr. Canning at that time
made IrmGovarnor-Generalof India. (Hear.) It appears
therefore that the freemen of Liverpool were quite saga-
cious arid intelligent enough to elect a man competent to
be Governor General of Judie. But Mr. Canning did
/ not accept that office. A higher and nobler destiny