The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-02 00:00:00

from any of our foreign Ministers, he d immediately
dent belief that the Emperor is now as firmly resolved as
forwarded them to his successor in officeb,aandhehadn toot he ever has been—as firmlyresolved as her Majesty's Go
vernment certainly are—to maintain
replied to them except to remove misapprehensions as
the course to be pursued by her
Mahest
This was too grave matterinvaluableto
coun-
verument. to be lightly tries; and if that alliance has been preserved and that
this
passed over, because, instead of its being simply a post- cordial feeling restored after the temporary cloud which
prandial speech, it partook ofja manifestot o the ea' ion that
recent events cast upon them, although we may perhaps
there existed in this country a cabal of Englishmen and claim some credit for the course we have pursued in
foreigners as bad as that of Charles 11., which embraced country, the praise, I repeat, is mainly due to the sound
the worst period of our history and the greatest national Judgment)
• •
the loyalty, and the good faith of that distin-
depravity. He (Lord Clarendon) could not imagine
guished man the Emperor of the French. Now, my
anything more likely to outrage the feelings of the people
lords, passing from the language which the Chancellor
of this country against her Majesty's late Government of the Exchequer is said to have inappropriately used
than for the people to imagine that they had been with respect to the state of
intoour relations with France
leagued with foreigners to bring about such nefarious
opposite proceeded to the next passage of the Bucking-
political objects, and he called Upon the noble lord to
8..
when the Government came office, my noble friend
give an explicit explanation to that part of the right
Exchequer took credit to
hon. gentleman's speech. ham hire speech, viz., that in which the Chancellor of the
e theyag. The Earl of DERBY—Before my noble friend sat npuort,suledthwiintkh, r
eugnedr unduly yt 0
down I thought he was going to conclude with some ot
the eu engineersßnjrnistitelyh'f or
theh col utrhs ee
of State for Foreign Affairs is en-
motion ; and I now hardly know in what manner I friend the Secretary.
friend
The noble earl has stated most trely t at nhy ho le
used cessfully, for the purpose of
should treat the observations he has made, and whether titled to every credit for the course he pursued and the
he used, and suo
I must not in the first instance intreat the indulgence of
means
sring the liberation of these two men ;and the noble
the house if I imitate the irregularity of my noble friend
earlp has said with great candour that, although unfor-
who has made a long speech without any apparent ob- tunately the Government
the real position of the case
with which he was connected
ject that I can perceive, unless, indeed, it be to make a
were
itwas tooquiteignorancein
late to interfere with sufficient effect,
of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) However, I have to of
personal attack on my right hon. friend the Chancellor
untilet they did what they could to procure some mitigation
the sufferings endured by our fellow-countrymen.
Yet
thank my noble friend for having given me intimation Now, Ido not deny that the noble earl during the pe-
gof his intention to bring under the notice of riod he held the seals of the Foreign Department did
yotir lordships, however irregularly, the speech delivered make various representations, and did toa certain extent
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer after a dinner given obtain from the Neapolitan Government a mitigation of
to him by his constituents ; because, though the course
cent and unconvicted men had been condemned, viz., a the severer portion of that punishment to which inno-
pursued seems to be elevating, perhaps, that post-gran- long and painful imprisonment. But, my lords, I must
be permitted to say that the state of ignorance to which
dial speech to the dignity of a State paper—(laughter)—
yei it has caused me to have the great gratification of thenoble earlrefers as his excuse for not having done more
again reading with more attention the whole of that did not exist later, aocerding to his own statement,
very able and amusing discourse. (Hear, and laughter.)
than the month of December,
Government took place. whereas it was not till
February that the change of
Perhaps my noble friend, in order to put himself in order
will move that a copy of that important State During the last days of the administration of the Foreign
paper be Department by noble earl he undoubtedly request:d
laid on the table of the house. (Laughter.) Of course of the Neapolitan Government that one of the engineers,
when the discussion is ended he would be prepared to whose mind had given way under the severity of the
withdraw the moti ,n, but such a motion would be the punishment to which he had
consequence of the state of his intellect, be withdrawn
been exposed, should, in
legitimate conclusion of the somewhat illegitimate course
from the rigorous captivity to which he had been sub-
he has pursued- (Hear, and laughter.) However, in con- jetted, and should be transferred to the British Hospital
sequence of the notice given me by my noble friend, I, at Naples, where the British Consul was himself to be
following the example of great authorities in another security for his production, whenever required, and where
place, and to prevent the possibility of mistake, obtained the
suggested the Neapolitan Government
mightplace a noble earl
guard to prevent the possibility of his
escpe. That is the position in which, upon succeeding to
a copy of the speech in question and made it my duty
ga
the administration of affairs, we found these two unfor-
authenticity of every expression, lam ready to adopt tunate individuals—(hear, hear)—one of them still in
the report, which proceeds from a quarter which is gene- prison and still subject to all the hardships of prison life,
rally correct in its version of public speeches, and to as-
and the other, whose reason had given way under the
slime it to be the speech delivered by the Chancellor of severity of his sufferings, withdrawn from prison and
Placed in an hospital under a guard, or at least the noble
the Exchequer. And now I must be permitted to say earl having suggested that he should be placed under a
that, if on the part of my right hon. friend there guard to prevent the possibility of his escape, the British
has been any indiscretion in the course of this Consul giving personal security for his appearing to tin-
post-prandial speech, in entering upon the un-
when
trial dergo hisial his mind should be restored. (Hear.)
necessary discussion of topics which had better Now, my lords, in another place—if I may follow the
not been entered into at all, it sinks into insignificance noble earl in a very slight degree in the irregularity
as compared with the indiscretion which my noble friend which he has committed—a very different line of defence
has been adopted. The noble viscount lately at the head
has exhibited in the manner in which he has dealt with
of the Government ventured, if I am not misinformed,
that, too, not before a constituency, not at a fstive
questions of the utmost delicacy and importance ; and upon the statement that the liberation, if not of both, at
least of one of those engineers was due, not to her Ma-
meeting, not in the natural exultation of a great Parlia- jesty's present Government, but to the efforts and ro,mon-
mentary sucoess achieved by his party, but in his place strances of her Majesty's late Government. That is a
in the House of Lords, where he has deliberately and on
purpose raked up the recollection of various transac• statement made, nut by the noble lord opposite—he has
lions which, to my mind, for the interest of Euro made a very different statement—but by the noble
pe had viscount who was at the head of the late Government.
better been consigned to oblivion. (Hear.) Ido not The Earl of CLARENDON—My noble friend the
come forward for the purpose of concurriog in every sin- member for Tiverton never said that both the engineers
gle expression or every single word which may have been were liberated in consequence of the remonstrances of
used, if, indeed, they all were used by my right hon. the late Government.
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but lam pre- The Earl of DERBY—I said one, if not both ;but this
pared to answer the challenge cf my noble friend with shows upon a small scale the inconvenience of these
respect.to many parts of his charge against my right irregular references to what persons have said, or are
hon. friend. It is said that my right hon. friend, in the supposed to have sai2, in the other House of Parliament.
first instance, stated that we were at the time we sue•
ceased to the Government in a position in which the Now, my lords, the nobie viscount lately at the head of
the Government is a person of very advanced age, very
possibility of a war with France was net only cf months vigorous for his age, vigorous beyond the ordinary race
and weeks but of hours. Now, my noble friend opposite of mortals—(a laugh)—but the first sign of advancing
has entered into a long and laboured explanation on this age is generally a slight failure of memory, and to that
subject, and into a somewhat unnecessary discussion, as
growing infirmity, I think, is to be attributed the as-
it appears to me, of all the circumstances which attended
tounding statement that the members of the late Go-
a very critical period of the alliance between France and
vernment, and not those of the present, are the persons
England, and he has sought to involve my right hon,
to whom one at least of these engineers is indebted for
friend in a contradiction, referring, again, irregularlyhis lib: ration from a Neapolitan prison. (Hear.) As
fur
that purpose, to a statement said to have been made by that statement has been made, let me remind your lord-
my right hon. friend in another place. My noble friend ships of the facts. It was on the 15th Feb. that the
has done me the honour to refer to the speech I had the
honour to deliver at the opening of Parliament, noble earl opposite preferred the request to which I have
in which already referred—viz., that one of the engineers, whose
I stated, after the atrocious attack on the life of the Em- peior, that I thought it a matter of great importance our good will towards France mind h d given way—there was nothing said of the other
, -e-should be transferred from a prison to an hospital,
that a measure should if possible be introduced which
with the view of testing ,
there to be kept under a guard, the British consul giv-
, ini
should at all events have the appearance, if not the effect
might be called upon to underattendancego his trial. That was
of putting a check on the machinations of those
persons one of the last acts of the Administration of the noble
is this country who so grossly abused the hospita'ity cad. When the present Government came into office,
proof
they enjoyed here which should net only be a my noble friend the S.cretary of State for Foreign Affa.ra
of our anxiety f.r the preservation of the life of the Emperor, lost no time in despatching Mr. Lyons to Naples, not
good feeling b ween the G but also for the
se maintenance
of of that be undervalued in the slightest degree the energy,
France and the activity, and the ability which had been shown pre-
England. I think that my noble friend will hardly viously by the acting consul, Mr. Barber, but because
venueur to say that when I made that statement in this he naturally thought that a person filling an important
e had not expressed in the strongest terms his diplomatic situation, though not at Naples, would pro-
apprehensions with respect to the relations between bably have more influence with the Neapolitan Govern-
England and France in case no measure of that kind ment. W, m lrds, it wai not until thelBth March
should be introduced into the IL wise Parliament. that Signorell Carafy e, o
in consequence of strong repre,enta.
(Hear, hear.) Ido not desire nor will I attempt to re- thins made by Mr. Lyons on the 16th, communicated
peat private conversations, but my noble friend opposite the intelligence that the King of Naples, out of defe-
will not, I think, deny that he himself, not many days rence, as he stated, to the British Government, was
before the debate, stated to me the very critical posi• willing to permit the unconditional return of the engi-
tion of our relations with France, and the dangers—the neer Watt, on account of the state of his health, to this
magnitude of which be could not foresee—if nostep were country instead of being kept in Naples ; and shortly
taken by the British Government to soothe the irritated afterwards, from the same alleged motive—deference to
feelings of the French people. Upon that statement, the British . Government—a similar indulgence was
and being desirous of supporting the Government and granted to the other captive, whose health, though not
of maintaining the alliance with France, which I knew
his mind, had also given way under the severity of his
to be at that time in danger, I did make the statement suffering-. (Ilear, hear.) Her Majesty's present Go-
to which my noble friend has alluded ; but what my vernment had thus the happiness of seeing restored—l
right hon. friend has stated is,—tbat it was not at the shall not say to health—but to their country and their
period when the late Government was in office that friends, these uofortunats men, although during the
there was danger of a rupture with France, but when whole period i f the administration of the Foreign De-
refMS present Government succeeded to office, upon the partment by the noble earl opposite no sups had been
ection and abandonment of the measure introduced taken fir the purpose, at all events, of procuring or
by the late Government—spontaneously and without promoting their liberation. (Cheers.) These, my lords,
pressure (for lam willing to adopt the statement of my are the facts of the case, and again I say, without refer-
noble friend)—to the passing of which it was notorious ring to the precise terms, which were perhaps a little in-
that the greatest importance was attached in Francs— fisted, used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in de-
when, I say, it was suddenly found impossible that that scribing the effects produced, that I think my right hon.
measure should be proceeded with, and when the expec- friend was fully jeqified in claiming for himself and his
tations of legislation of so delicate a subject raised by colleagues the credit of having effected the restoration is
the late Government fall to the ground and the most their families and friends of these two unfortunate men,
irritating language was held on this and the other side after their long and cruel captivity in a Neapolitan pri-
of the Channel, Ido not hesitate to say, that if it had son. (Cheers.) Now, my lords, the noble earl opposite,
not been for great prudence and moderation on the part not satisfied with the contrast which we are entitled to
of those charged with the management of affairs, both draw between the course pursued by the present Go.
here and in France—it is impossible to deny that there vernment and that adopted by her ,sty's l ad-
was most serious and imminent danger of an immediate
visers, has the confidence to go a step Maj
further and t ateo
say
rupture between the two countries. And if there were
that Mr. Disraeli ought at all events to have been en-
not, I wish the noble earl will explain why it was that :shied to state that these persona had obtained an on that that very question of Milner Gibson's in the other ditional release, and that the indemnity which he admits
house notices were freely circulated to the friends of we have very properly asked on their behalf has been
the then Government, to the effect that if his conceded by the Go7erntr est of Naples. The question of
motion should be unhappily adopt d there was imminent indemnity is one which, as ne friend we knows
danger of war with France ? Wear.) If there was no is under discussion between thio noble
country and Naples., such danger those notices should not have issued. I see We have made a claim and mean to support it. With
that my noble friend is taking a note of what I say. I I regard to the other question, my noble fob ed (Lord
do not mean to state that loess notices were put in Malmesbury) has been able to inform the nle earl op-
and apparently on posite that the release of the engineers haa been absolute,
writing, but language was freely held,
authority on the part of those who used, and whose busi- entire, and unconditional. My lords, I said I would Lot
ness it was to bring down voters to support the policy of comment upon every particular expression attributed to
the then Government. (Hear.) I say, then, that aiLr the I my light hon, friend, nor defend any language which
measure of the late Government had fallen to the ground, I might appear exaggerated. Ido not think, if speeches
and af.er the late Government, which had induced the I made on occasions like this are to be brought under so-
French Government to expect the passing of the measure, t Hens discussion in both houses of Parliament, and are to
retired from office, there was a feeling of the greatest pos- I
be made the subjects of motions or of debates equivalent
Bible irritation arising from the whole of these transac- to motions for two nights longer in ono house, and for a
tions ; and it was not possible to say, without overstrain- considerable space of time on another night in the
fag expressions that certain rupture and possible war other house—l do not think that her Majesty's late Go..
between England and France might be a question not of vernment are those who ought minutely to criticise par-
weeks or days but of hours ? (hear,) B:fore going fur- ticular forms cf expression, or to complain of any little
they I must say that my noble friend has, lam quite indiscretion of language or of sentiment which may have
sure, unintentionally misstated the course pursued by the been committed even by a Minister of the Crown in a
Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to the bill, to postprandial speech upon a festive occasion. (Cheers.) I
which be has alluded, The noble earl Fait that oe the could point to one or two instances—one more remote
first introduction of the bill it met with the warm and tend the other not very dislant —in which language has
ee ,
nog uallueu approval and support of the Chancellor of the been held which, if subjected to the test of severe criti-
Exchequer- My noble friend's memory is somewhat de- cism and Parliamentary investigation, and if the speeches
festive, for, unless mine is at fault, I beheve that that in which it occurred had been treated' as State papers, as
measure received the sanction of a large body of the that of my right hon. friend has been by my noble friend
House of Commons as a meek of respect to the French oosite, would have been found not to be such as was
Government and of good will towards France; but the bests alculated to secure and maintain perfect harmony
Chancellor of the Exchequer did not allow the opportu- between this and other countries. (Hear.) My nobie
pity to pass without stating that he supported the intro-
friend opposite has cleverly and ingeniously coloured
duction of the bid on those specific grounds, and he some portions of the speech cf my noble friend. I car-
pto himself the right of fully considering the tainiy should not have expected him to make more than
a passing allusion from which it was impossible to re-
course he should pursue on the second reading of the ledl
if it should ever arrive at a second reading. So much for frain—to that gradually dissolving view—to the bursting
the "cordial support," to use the language of my noble of that great bubble—to that breaking up of the ice of the
pa
inade
ettahnes
garnadd indications
w i t
hdra
wo of 1 what
o n ew
bays
friend opposite, afforded by the Chancellor of the Exche-h Neva, which took p'ace with sudden violence, after
qu e r to a bill which was afterwards not withdrawn, out
goingvariousto cracks
take
abandoned on the second reading. Well, my lords,
say that the Government were entitled to some degree of one, of single cards from that arecarfully constructed edit
commendation for the temperate and moderate course by fire of pasteboard, until at last that which it had cost
which they sought to smooth down the angry feeling some, persons so much pains to build up collapsed in a
which existed in this country, and to remove a portion single moment, came to nothing, and fell to the grounO,
of that formidable irritation which prevailed on. the to the utter and irretrievable confusion of its authoes. ;A
I
other side cf the channel. But, my lords, I would be laugh.) I did not expect the noble earl to comment on
guilty of a gross injustice—l wou'd be acting in a man- that part of my
right hon, friend'sdo not
spew). nee wholly unworthy of the position which I hold, of the know whether he read it with so much amusement as I
place in which I stand, and of the audience whom lam did ; but greater than my amusement was my conviction
addressing—if I did not say that by far the greater por- of its truthfulness. I felt eminently convinced that,
tion of' the credit which is due for preventing that possi- great as was the wit, great as was the clehernese, great
ble rupture, and that probable alienation between the as was the humour of that most graphic description,
two countries, is due to the firmness, to the good sense, that which most peculiarly appertained to it was un-
to the Judgment, and to the cordial attachment to the deniable truth. (Hear, hear, hear.)
There was no ex.
British alliance which, under all circumstances, have aggeration even of eejeurieg, for no exaggeration could
cane at which—l shall
beim manifested by the il'ustrious man who rules over be app'ied to that matchless s .
the empire hf Fria (Cheers.) My lords it would have remand en it to the lost day cf my Ibad 1 f;.— the good
been impossible tonrcae.m.an to maintain mein firmly, more fortune to be present. But,
honourably, m
hon. friend to which, as
my lords, there was one
dignity of
this
sore consistently, with more regard to the part of the speech of n,y right
country and to the d' ,nit of his own, be wag making a running comment, taking down its ua-
-6 y'
cordial ge,the
than the Emperor of the French has 'done the al- due pretensions and rebuking its
fiance which bassi) long. and so happily subsisted between noble earl opposite might have referred. Why did he
the t wo countries •
, and it is to
hhis,intimate knots ledge of not say something on the subject of finance. ? There
this country—a knowled e
many of his countrymen,g wilt, Which is 1"
oiler" pcsiessed by were three topics to which my right hoc. friend specially
misconceive and misconstruequently are apt to referred, and with which he summed up his speed!'.
perception Whiaceitkiohns—that is to be These were foreign affairs, the position in which we
attributed the just perm
hase had of the found them, and that in which we stand now ; the
difficulties under which the Goeernmenet
uellbeure finances of the country, the position in which we found
and of the obstacles which existed to the fr rest of
. them, and that which they now occupy ; and the policy
not unnatural wishes and desires oa his part, w ile ,is
to his loyalty,and •
owing to his good sense,to his good which her Majesty's Government have recommended for
India. These were the three topics upon which my
faith that he has given full play to thatd accurate percep- right hon. friend in his celebrated speech at Slough took
lion of the real pos:ticn of affairs, sad hcoasuanbtstai"l from credit to the Government. Upon two of them my noble
sot friend opposne has ventured to join issue ; upon the
pressing claims to which he felt this
hrei,cieloitaiedt
lid would not assent, and the pi., sting of 7
third he has been discreetly and totally silent. Ho did
believed would have be n prajudici 41 to thatgood uniduerY not reenteon as one of the merits which were claimed by
standing which happily preset 11 let A eta the two coon- 1.1):i right hon. friend—and of course by not disputing it
tries, (Cheers )My lads, I vaiture to express my confi .he admits the validity of the claim—those financial fir-
.

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY E V ENING, J UNE 2, 1858.

had neglected to take that course. (Hear.) the noble
earl has gone over many parts of the Slough speech
which were not alluded to by my noble friend. He has
adverted, among other things, to Mr. Disraeli's amusing
description of the scene in the other House of Parliament
on the conclusion of the Indian debate on the night of
Monday week. I can assure the noble earl that on reading
that part of the right hon. gentleman's speech, I was as
highly entertained as be appears to have been. I was
then travelling in a railway carriage, and I handed
the paper containing the report to one of the noble
lord's supporters, and pointing his attention to that
part of the speech, I remarked that it was one of the
most amusing fictions that I had ever read in my life.
(A. laugh.) But the noble earl stated that he was par-
ticularly delighted with the truth of that description.
(Hear, hear.) Now, it did not strike me in that way,
and I certainly don't think the public who read the
speech, and the explanation of it given by the right
hon. gentleman himself, will take the same view of its
truth as the noble earl has done. (A. laugh.) Mr.
Disraeli in his speech at Slough indulged in a feeling of
self-glorification as to his financial measures ; but I
think if there is one point more than another on which
that speech may be challenged, it is that very part of it.
(Cheers.) One would have thought on reading his speech
that the late Government had reduced the country to
irretrievable ruin and that the present government had
stepped in and set everything to rights. (A. laugh.)
But how have they done this ? Why on the very simple
principle of not muddling away their money in paying
their debts (laughter), and postponing to a future oc-
casion those liabilities which it would have been more
statesmanlike to meet in a more bold and direct manner.
(Cheers.) The noble earl also claimed credit for a re-
duction of the rate of interest on Exchequetnbille, but
ho might as well have taken credit for the glorious sun
which has shone this day (a laugh), for that reduction
of interest is owing to the improved state of the country,
and one government is no more entitled to boast of it
than another. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend first
asked this question of the noble earl, whether he would
subscribe to the statement of Mr. Disraeli, that the
question of a war between this country and France was
one not of days but of hours on the accession of the pre-
sent government. The noble earl endeavoured to meet
that question with the very greatest difficulty. He was
determined not to abandon the defence of an absent friend,
yet that is a question which he more or less evaded.
The noble earl says be is justified in saying so, because
the late Government brought the whole matter into con-
fusion by not carrying the bill with which they had
tantalised the French Government, and thus created the
difficulty of the position. Bat whose fault was it that
we did not carry the bill ? (Hear.) The noble earl said
that Mr. Disraeli guarded himself in the approval which
he gave of the bill in the first instance, but what did the
Chancellor of Ireland ? What did Mr. Walpole ? They
followed the same course as the noble earl had done in
indicating and urging upon the Government the very bill,
and more than the bill, which we afterwards introduced,
and which was thrown out upon a similar motion to one
they had previously opposed—l will not say in conse-
quence of, but in strange coincidence with the fact that
a large number of Liberals voted against the bill, and
that a junction with those Liberals would be the means
of putting the then Government in a minority. The noble
earl talked of "tantalising" the French Government.
Now, I think that although credit is due to the late Go-
vernment for the manner in which they conducted all
affairs, yet special credit is due to them for their manage-
ment of foreign affairs, and for their forbearance from
raising questions that might endanger our relations with
foreign Powers. Now the question is at rest, but I may
ask the noble earl, who talks of tantalising the French
Government, what has become of the bill which he said
would depend upon the answer which Count Walewski
might return to the Government despatch,
Tne Earl of DERBY—I said nothing of the sort. I
said that when we received the answer it would be time
enough to decide upon the course we should pursue.
Earl GRANVILLE—WeII, surely that colons to the
same thing. (A laugh,) Another question asked by my
noble friend was as to the explanation of a most serious
accusation brought against some individuals of having
formed a cab,l wi:h some foreigners with a view to up-
setting the Queen's Government. To that question the
noble earl has given no answer—no hypothesis presented
itself to him, and he declared he would not enter
into it. I, therefore, have a right to believe that either
the noble earl does not understand what his colleague
has stated, or, understanding it, ho entirely repudiates
the charge as false and unfounded. (Hear.) The next
question touched upon by the noble earl was India, and
upon that subject there is but one point to which I would
refer. The noble earl says that no one in either house,
whether a friend of Lord Canning or not, has dared to
rise and defend the proclamation. Now, I deny that to
be the fact. (Hear, hear.) I say there are those who
are convinced the proclamation was perfectly right, but
who have said they could not defend that mis representa-
tion of the proclamation which was put forth by those
who attacked Lord Canning. lam prepared to abide
by that declaration. (Hear, hear.) As to the whole
case of India lam happy to say that Lord Canning's
' characterstards too high to be affected by any post-pran-
dial speech uttered in a tavern at Slough. The provider
of the entertainment, as I sea by the papers, was mine
host "Bragg." (Loud laughter.) I say no such
speech can affect the high position of Lord Canning. I
have heard the noble earl declare his intention of sup-
porting Lord Canning, and I place the fullest confidence
in that declaration, and if supported by the Government
of the present day, and by the public opinion of the
country, I believe Lord Canning will require no defence
from speeches 'such as that we have been oonsiderirg.
(Rear, hear.) Ido not know that there was anything
further that fell from the noble earl which requires
ienithened comment from me, but I must express my
thanks to my noble friend who, by his temperate, mode-
rate, and conclusive speech has afforded us an opportu-
nity not only cf demolishing the statements made at the
famous Slough dinner, but also of enlightening the pub-
lic upon a point upon which serious misconceptions had
existed. (Cheers-)

rangements to which in a position of great and anticie
pated difficulty we have had the rare merit of obtaining
universal, or almost universal, assent. My noble friend
will certainly recollect that the late Government were
about to enter upon the discussion of the budget with no
very sanguine anticipations as to the resources of the
country, or as to the view which might be taken of the
measures which they intended to submit to Parliament.
If I am correctly informed, no mode of rectifying the
disorder of the finances occurred to them better than
that which would not have been a very popular measure
—a considerable increase of the incame-tax. The late
Government, and—if there are such persons as the
members of a cabal—the cabal, or those who, in the
house or out of the house, Englishmen or foreigners,
were looking forward to the destruction of the present
Ministry immediately on its formation, anticipated
that the budget would be the inevitable destruction of
this incompetent Government. (Hear, bear.) It was
said, " They have succeeded by an accident in ousting
the late Government and getting into place for a mo-
ment, but it is only for 48 hours." (Cheers,) That was
the language held, " Don't be alarmed, this is nothing
serious, it is but an affair of 48 hours." Eight and forty
hours elapsed, and then it was, "You will see that
the whole thing will fall to the ground, and then will be
that glorious and mach longed for restoration" which is
the main object of noble lords opposite. (A. laugh.)
Weeks elapsed and there was no indication of the desired
consummation, and then it was said, " But there is the
budget, they never can get over that. We know the
state in which the finances were when we left office.
(Renewed laughter.) We are very well out of it, leaving
our successors to deal with the budget, which we know,
that we should have found an insurmountabledifficulty.'
We did deal with the budget, and dealt with it in such a
manner that, without violating public faith, carrying on
the promised reduction of that most obnoxious income-
tax,—which the late Government had intended to main-
tain, if not to increase,—we, by the addition of taxes,
not large in amount, not very important, and to which
few persons took any objection, made such an arrange-
ment as to secure for ourselves a fair surplus for the
year. (Hear, hear.) My lords, may Igo a little
further ? May I take the liberty of mentioning an-
other transaction which has not come under public
notice ? I refer to the issue of Exchequer-bills. The
Exchequer-bills cf last year bore interest at 2d. per
diem. 14,000,0001. of bills had to be reissued during
the present year, and they have been placed at such
a reduced rate of interest as, upon a sum of 517,0001.
paid for interest, amounts to a saving of not less than
214,0001, or two-fifths of the whole amount. (Hear,
hear.) I cannot say how much of that reduction is to
be ascribed to the possibility of raising money on more
advantageous terms than last year ; but it is either to
the good management or to the good fortune of my
right hon. friend that it is to be ascribed that the coun-
try has enjoyed the advantage of this great saving.
(Hear, hear.) The last topic into which I shall follow
my noble friend, because I will not deal with personal
matters—l will not deal with those questions of in-
trigues and cabals, whether foreign or domestic—l will
not deal with those questions of the means, more or less
unscrupulous, which have been resorted to for the pur-
pose of opposing and placing obstacles in the way of the
existing Government without a'reasonable hope of form-
ing a Ministry to replace it ;—I will proceed to a mat-
ter, in adverting to which, I think, the noble earl oppo-
site has done grievous injustice to the intention and
even to the plain language of my right hon. friend, by
supposing that the reference to India was meant as an
ungenerous and ungentlemanlike attack upon the cha-
racter, the conduct, and the policy of Lord Canning.
What was the language used by my right hon. friend ?
He did not say that we had reconstructed our Indian
empire, as he was represented by my noble friend to
have said. What he did say was that we had laid
down a policy for India which we believed would be
the means of reconstructing its social condition, and
that that was a policy of considerate and discriminatheig
amnesty in preference to ono of confiscation, of violence,
and of massacre. Now, Ido not believe that my right
bon. friend intended to convey, nor do I think that he
can be taken to have conveyed, the charge against Lord
Canning that he was in favour of a policy of tie-discri-
minating violence and massacre. (Hear.) Lord Canning
did undoubtedly, by the proclamation of which so
much has been said in this country, give colour to
the oi.inion that it was his intention to adopt a principle
of very extensive confiscation ; but a, principle of violence,
a principle of massacre, never, I am sure, entered the
mind of my noble friend the noble viscount at the head
of the Government of India, and was never imputed to
him by my right hon. friend. But it is notorious to every
one that the atrocities which were committed in the
earlier period of what I may now call the late revolt in
India had excited in the minds of people in this country,
had excited in the minds of civilians and of military
men in India, a fierceness and a desire for savage ven-
geance, which Lord Canning was the first to deprecate
—(hear)—and which it appeared to her Majesty's Go-
vernment to be most important to put down ; and, not
the period when we were remonstrating against the
course which Lord Canning was, by his proclamation,
apparently about to pursue, but one month before, and
immediately upon our accession to office, we impressed
upuu the Governor General, not for his own guidance,
but to a-sure him of our support, that we recommended
a principle cf generous forbearance, of leniency, and of
discriminating amnesty in preference to that principle
of universal violence and general massacre which we
knew was too much pressed upon him by many of those,
both military men and civilians, by whom he was sur-
rounded. (Hear.) My lords, I say this, that when my
right hon. friend was speaking of the course which the
Government had pursued, or intended to pursue ; when
he was vindicating our conduct before his assembled con-
stituents: when Le was taking credit for those things
for which he thought the Government could fairly
claim praise, there was no subject upon which be
1
might more confidenily appeal to the 'general good feel-
ing, to the sound sense, and to the deliberate
cenvicticns of the people of this c untry in favour, of
our policy than when he said we• had laid
down as the rule for the government of India discrimi-
native amnesty in contradistinction to universal c inae-
cation, massacre, and violence. (Hear.) And if my
noble friend quarrels with the expression that that policy,
so declared, had obtained the approval of England and
the admiration of Europe, "the admiration of Europe"
might perhaps have been a theoretical addition to that
which I believe to be the simple and naked truth. That
policy has at all events obtained the unqualified ap-
proval of the people of England ; and it is a remarkable
circumstance that in the whole course of the discussions
on :this question in this and the other House of Ta !la-
ment, while many persons have blamed, and many more
have regretted, the publication of the private despatch
to Lord Canning, their is no human being in this or the
other House of Parliament who has ventured to stand
up in his place and, as against the principles and doctrines
laid down in that degpatcb, to maintain and uphold the
doctrines and principles apparently laid down in the pro-
clamation of Lord Canning. (Cheers.) Even the friends
lof Lard Canning in this house have stated distinctly
that if such were the meaning to be attached to the pro-
clamation no terms would be too strong to use in con-
dernnatim of it ; and in the other house no human being
has risen for the purpose of defending the proclamation
itself in the plain, natural sense which, in the absence of
any explanation, it necessarily bore in the minds of her
Majesty's Government. (Cheer..) Well, then the noble
earl adverts to the censure which has been passed iu bit.
Europe with regnrd to the transactions relating to the The Earl of MALMESBURY—,The noble earl says
Kingdom of Oude. My lords you are quite aware the danger would arise if we did not go on with the bill.
that the language used on that subject was used Lot the country know that the noble earl who was de.
in a despatch which was intended to meet the eye privet of office because the nation did not choose to Elf.:-
of the Governor-General alone, and that all the mit to his bill—let them know that the noble earl is still
cireuenstaoces there stated were so stated hr of the same mind, and if he were aeain in office he would
the - purpose of showing to Lord Caroling, the reintroduce that bill. I say it was no fiction on the part
broad line en' distinction which ought to be drawn of the Chancellor of the Excheeil„. to say
between those misouine I followers of the deposed moment he referred to was a most dangerame crisis for
King of Oude and the rest of the population.. My lords, the alliance between England and Prance. Another oh-
that the
I cannot bat regret that my noble friend opposite should, servation cf the noble earl we
in-
in
the exercise cf his discretion, have again referred to correct. Ile stated that be heard
s extraordinary and
and believed that the
and gives additional publicity to statements and to French ambassador hail corn
arguments used in a very different sense, and that Ploined of a breach of faith.
he Lord CLARENDON—I said no such thing; I said
has used them in a manner which I feel will much aggra- it was the talk of the town.
vase the danger of miscoro truction put upon the private The Earl r f MA.LMESBURY—If the noble earl did
despatch. I can emphatically say, except with regard not believe it, why did he mention a ? This house does
to the policy of confiscation, which we disapprove, and not usually occupy itself in discus;-.13g rumours. But I
except as vialeece and massacre might, though not in- am glad to be able to declare that Vie rumour is not cur-
tentionally, be the consequence of a protracted resistance reef. jt is only two days ago that ie a jeurnal supposed
arising out of that confiscation on the part of persons to be ietimateiy cennected with the late Premier it was
driven to despair, it was not the intention of my right stated that it was in consequence of a breach of faith on
hon. friend, and lam sure it is not the intention cf her our part that Count Persigny quitted this country. I
Majesty's Government, in the slightest degree to impute have no hesitation in saying that is:completely incorrect,
to Lord Canning or to cast in his teeth that revengful, and M. de Persieny would be the first to join me in the
barbarous, and bloodthirsty spirit which, on the con- declaration. It was nothing done, said, or written by
trary, he has bean the first to reprobate, but which it was this Government which caused him to L,avethis country,
absolutely necessary, if we wished to give Lord Canning but some di agreement with his principal in Paris. There
a real support, should take the earliest opportunity of die- is only one other point upon which I e ish to say a fe w
couragiug. (Cheers.) I think I have gone through all the words, and that is the question of the English engineers
topics contained in the statement of my noble friend to at Naples. In the speech of the noble viscount in another
which it is necessary or becoming in me to refer. I place he is reported to have said, "As regards one of
must say that, although I have not shrank from explain• , those men, he had been set free and banded over to the
ins and vindicating the statements made and the lan- care of the British Consul before the change of Ministry
guage held by my right hon. friend, not in every perti- occurred ; but had b, en rescued from the dungeons they
cular term, but in substance and fact, and although bad previouily occupied and placed in a comparatively
Ido not deny that the language of public men holding light place of confini anent before the present Govern-
high office is to be more carefu'ly and closely watched meat came into ofEoe." Now, my lords, we found both
and criticised than the language of those hold- these men being tried for their lives, and as regards one
iog less responsible appointments, yet I do think that i of these men I will read an extract from a comneunica-
although the language used and the opinions cx- tion from Mr. Lyons, dated March 24 :—" Park has
pressed by my right hon. friend might have called forth this day been released from prisons upon bail." One of
sonic casual criticism, and a passing notice from these them was deprived of his reason, anti the other broken
who disapproved them, a great deal more has been made in health, but since we have been in office they have both
of this speech than is consistent with the dignity of been unconditionally liberated by tile Neapolitan Go-
either of the houses, or with the importance of the ques- vernment. I suppose, my lords, Ye, ought to be ex-
tions to which it refers. (Cheers ) I have not, how- tramely thankful for the lesson on the neeessity of cul -
ever, shrunk from vindicating an absent friend, and I tivating habits of public discretion which we have this
think my noble friend might have done vveil to recollect evening received; but I would beg the noble lord, at
that that hoe, gentleman en two successive evenings has whose hands we have been favoured with so much good
been attacked on the same subject in his place in Par advice, to bear in mind for the faturethe common maxim
lisanent, where he had a right to speak, and that he has which saes teat those who live in crystal'palaces should
there teen to his oonents! first one and then the not throw etenes. (A laugh.) [A noble lord—" In glass
other, such an explanation and such an answer as neither houses."]
-My noble f, mead
may live in a glass house,
they nor the country will speedily forget. (Loud cheers.) but lam not quite sure that it may not with more pro-
Earl GR
earl in a solemn
ANVILLE—The noble
Goverement that he in a rystal palace, for he is
and manner has expressed lis surprise that my noble absolutely upon ail sidessurrounded by glass. (
friend (the Earl of Clarendon) should have exhibited hear, and laughter.) I recollect a time, and that no very
which had much better be forgotten. But, I ask, was el
such an amount of indiscretion as to rake up old events distant period, when the noble lord seemed completely
which to have forgotten—lshorill perhaps rather say despised
es cf discretion which have tranight been so
it my noble friend's fault that he raked up those events ---;lhostejortuale recommend for the adoption of public men.
which the leader of the Government in the other House (efline‘ara.) W-e
mustall remember how that alliance, open
of Parliament made the grounds of a speech delivered at which the no' le viscount to whom 1 allude set so high a
value, was greatly imperilled by the indi-creet language
ciikmi
neeedtirnegp
oorftehri s 3, constituents,
replete
within the presence of highly
foolish char es against
which he uaud, and how some taro years ago, at a Lord
my noble friend and all those connected with the late Mayor's dinner, he made a speech which called for ex-
Government ? (Cheers) I contend that planation upon the pert of the French GovernMent.
my noble friend (Hear, hear.) Fortunately for the fable lord the French
a simple ear- ambassador happened at the time to be absent in Paris,
native
oo of tfhaecrt
8: oaunrds et
ot to
show
wrs uwehtehrae
than
tgriuvteh lay. (Hear.) and was not present at the dinrer, for if he had been he
must have Lit it to be his duty to walk out of the room.
I think my noble friend was more than justified in the
course be has taken, and that it would have been a de-
(Cheers.) There was also another occasion on which, if 1
mistake not, tko noble viscount showed an equal core
reliction of his duty to this house and the public if he tempt for those rules of dipacretion of which the noble

earl opposite is so earnest an advocate. Your lordships
have seen that address—worse than a speech, because it
was written—to the electors of Tiverton, in which so
much good taste and good feeling were displayed, and in
which the noble viscount thought proper to brand the
majority of the members of both Houses of Parliament
as men who were ready to make the disgrace of their
country a stepping stone to office. (Cheers.) Now, I
cannot help thinking that a noble earl who serves under
a leader who is accustomed to make use of such language
as that might very well have refrained from inflicting; on
us that severe castigation which he has this evening ad-
ministered. (Cheers.) For my part I am of opinion that
nothing has been said by my right hon. friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer in the speech in question which
taken line by line or word by word, can either in tone
or taste, or in its tendency to produce grave public con-
sequences, be justly charged with being equally open to
reprehension as much which has fallen from Lord Pal-
merston himself. (Cheers.)
Lord STANLEY of AL DERLEY, referring to the
question which had been put by the noble earl who had
just spoken as to whether her Majesty's late Go-
vernment would, if they were to return to office to.
morrow, proceed with the Conspiracy Bill, said he had
no hesitation in stating that they would proceed with
that measure, and quite as little hesitation in expressing
his opinion that they must, in persevering in that course,
receive the support of the noble earl at the bead of the
Government, who had observed, after his accession to
office, that the proper time to deal with such a measure
was after a fitting answer had been returned to the de-
spatch of Count Walewski. He might alao remind their
lordships that the present Secretary of State for the
Home Department had, in the discussion which had
taken place upon the bill in the other house of Parlia-
men', deeared it to be his determination—the honour
of England having, as he deemed it to bo necessary, been
in the first instance vindicated by means of an answer
to the despatch of the French Government—to give his
cordial support to the bill before the house. (Hear.)
It was under those circumstances clear, he thought, that
the colleagues of the noble earl must aid in the passing of
a measure, of which he seemed to entertain so great a
horror, should it ever be introduced. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped, and their lordships ad-
journed at a quarter to 8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
—Ayr and Dalmellington Railway ; Birkenhead Im-
provement Commissioners (Bondholders' Arrangements);
Cromford and High Peak Railway ; East Kent Rail-
way (Dover Extension) ; Manchester Corporation
Water ' • Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Rail-
way (Newton to Compstall); Newport, Abergavenny,
and Herd rd Railway; and Tra,nore Embankment.
MANCHESTER, SHEFFIELD AND LINCOLN-
SHIRE AND GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY
BILL. •
` Mr. SPOONER moved that the minutes of the pro-
ceeding 4 of the committee on the Manchester, Sheffield,
and Lincolnshire and Great Northern Railway Com-
panies Bill, in Group 8 of Railway and Canal Bills, be
printed, at the expense of the parties applying for the
same, and distributed with the votes ; that the minutes
of the evidence taken before the said committee be laid
before this house. —Agreed to.
The South Devon and Tavistock Railway Bill was
further considered and ordered to be read a third time.
CHURCH OF ENGLAND SPECIAL SERVICES

BILL.
Mr. DEEDES moved that the order of the day for
the second reading of the Church of England Special
Services Bill be read, fcr the purpose of being die-
char. ed. (11Par, hear.)—Agreed to.
Mr. DEEDES then moved that the bill be withdrawn.
—Agreed to.

HAINAULT FOREST.
Mr. CAIRD gave notice that, on this day month, he
should call the attenti )n cf the house to the expendi-
ture that had been incurred by the Woods and Forests,
in reference to Hainault Forest.
THE ISLAND OF JERSEY.
Mr. HADFIELD aelvd the Secretary of State for
the Home Department whether it was the intention of
her Majesty's Government to carry out the recommen-
dations of the commit-sinners, appointed in 1846, for the
reform of the criminal laws of the island of Jersey,
and to abolish the R )yal Court in that island,
which the said commis,ioners, in said year, declared
not to be deserving of public confidence : Whether
it was their intention to issue a commission of in-
quiry into the civil laws of Jersey and the mode of ad-
ministering them, in accordance with the declared inten-
tion and promise of Government in the year 1845, by
the then Home Secretary ; or whether it was their in-
tention to take any measures forassimilating the la we of
Jersey to the laws of England ?
Mr. WALPOLE sad the attention of the Secretary
of State had been, and always would bs, called to many
groat and grievous defects in the law of Jersey, and steps
would be taken for their improvement. An order in
council had failed to enforce the recommendation of the
commissioners, and the only way in which it could be
done wou!d be by an act of Parliament, which, in all
probability, would be to bring the house into collision
with the states of Jersey, which was not desirable.
STAMPS ON CHEQUES.
Mr. NICOLL. asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
if his attention had been directed to the commercial in•
convenience likely to be caused by bankers refusing to
honour cheques when drawers had omitted to write their
initials on adhesive stamps, but which were otherwise
cancelled, sufficiently to accord with the intention of the
act, and if it was contemplated to enable persons who had
give❑ valuable consideration for such checks to attach,
or to cancel, adhesive staraps in lieu of the drawers ;
also, if it would be promptly sought to amend the law
relating to crossed checks, so as to make the crossing to
a banker an essential part of the check.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the practice of the Bank of England was to
refuse payment of a check without the stamp
was cancelled. With regard to the latter part
of the question her Majesty's Government bad no
intention to propose any alteration in the law. Where
a stamp was virtually canceled, so that it could not be
used again, the Bank of England always paid the
cheque. The matter of cross cheques would, in all pro-
bability, settle itself.

The Earl of MALMESBURY—There are only one
or two points, chiefly relating to our foreign affairs,
upon which I wish to touch, because I think the noble
earl (Clarendon) bas incorrectly stated the facts relating
to them. It appears to me somewhat absurd that we
should have criticisms upon a speech delivered at a pub-
lic dinner—upon a speech which the noble earl did not
hear, but an explanation of which be asks from my noble
friend, who also did not hear it. When explanations
were asked in the other house, it was only reasonable
and fair, because the person who uttered the speech was
present in that house, and could speak for himself ; but
to ask those oho knew nothing of the speech to explain
its expressions is absurd. The noble earl has alluded to
one part of that speech, in which reference was made to
disa-reements which exi3ted three months ago between
tbislienverninerit and the Government of France. Now,
Position of the two coun-
tries was
saas cituite
that correctriarticu toia say the
as most critical —that we
were up)n the verge of war, for ashen I saw the French
ambassador, upon my taking office, I found that ho re-
garded the position of fairs as ore of the gravest dan-
ger, and he nevzr saw me without expressing his belief
in distinct terms that we had arrived at a crisis of most
;rominent, clanger.
Lord CLAItENDON—If you dd not go on with the

THE CORMACKS.
Mr. BRADY asked whether tht re was any truth in a
statement which had appeared in the Irish journals, to
the effect that a person named Burke, the principal evi-
dence in the case of the Cormacks, lately executed at
Thurles for the murder of Mr, Mils, had since confessed,
while in tha bands cf the authorities, that his evidence
upon their trial bad been fal,e, and given under coer-
cion ; whether any investigations had taken place into
the circumstances, and what bad s:nce been done with
Burke?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND be-
lieved no such confession had been made by Burke. In-
vestilaticns had been made into the statement, but it
had ins,-n found to be unfounded. He declined to„state
where Burke now was. He had no doubt Burke was
protected by the police till he left Ireland.

Newgate every editor of a newspaper who charged hon.
members with partiality they would soon not have a
prison large enough to bold them. (Hear, and laughter.)
This was not an offence of sufficient gravity for Mr.
Wilkes to be sent to Newgate. It also partook
of the character of partizanship. (Hear, hear) He
(Mr. Gibson) had lately been charged of partisanship in
supporting Lord Derby's Government—(hear, hear, and
laughter)—but he should not think of calling an editor
of a newspaper for such a charge. He had no objec-
tion to Mr. Wilkes being called to the bar of the house,
and asked if he retracted or not the whole of the article
in question.
Mr. DOUVERIE supported the amendment of the
Solicitor-General.
Mr. ROEBUCK, whilst expressing hie contempt for
anything the press might say of him, urged that the
gravity of the offence charged against Mr. Wilkes was
such that he ought not to be discharged without making
a full retractation of the `charges containedlin the article
iii question.
Mr. GLADSTONE drew a distinction between cor-
rupt partisanship and partisanship. It was often their
pleasure to read attacks in the press on their partisan-
ship—(laughter)—which no doubt were open to actions
in a court of law, but hon. gentlemen, instead
of taking that course, were content to rest on
the general feeling of the people against such
attacks. He admitted it was necessary the press should
have groat powers (but they ought to be guarded), in
order to protect the rights and liberties of the people,
and he cautioned the house how they proceeded in such
cases as this, where the charge of corrupt motives had
been withdrawn.
The Solicitor-General's amendment was carried, and
the matter stands over.
CAPTAIN PEEL.
Admiral WALCOTT inquired whether the Admiralty
had received any official information in reference to the
melancholy death of Captain Peel /
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that no information bad
been received beyond that which appeared in the news-
papers yesterday.
,
MILITARY DEPATMENTS.
Captain VIVIAN called the attention of the house to
the necessity of more clearly defining the responsibility
and duties of the various military departments, and
moved the following resolution :—"That, although the
recent consolidation of the different departments of Ord•
nance, Commissariat, and Secretary of War has, to a
certain extent, improved the general administration of
military affairs, a divided resaa neibility still exists ; and
that, in order to promote greater efficiency, the depart-
ments of the Horse Guards and War-office should be
placed under the control of one responsible minister."
General PEEL was of opinion that the existing sys-
tem was more calculated to prove beneficial to the army
than the plan recommenqed by hie hon. and gallant
friend. At present the Horse Guards acted free alto-
gether from party bias, which could hardly be the case
with a minister who would have to retire on every
change of Government. He therefore opposed the motion.
Lord A. V, TEMPEST contended that the present
organisation of the army was not what it ought to be,
and advocated the necessity cf placing it on a similar
footing to that of the navy.
Mr. HORSMAN supported the motion.
Mr. B. JOHNSTONE also supported the motion, be-
ing opposed to divided responsibility. It was said that
two heads were better than one, but in the case of the
army he preferred one head, for then they would know
on whom the responsibility would rest. At present he
was sent from the War-office to the Horse Guards, and
from the Horse Guards to the War-office, without being
able to find out which of those departments should have
given him the information ho required.
Sir F. SMITH approved of the present arrangement,
for which the Minister of War was really responsible.
Mr. S. HERBERT was opposed to the motion, which
would in effect place the duties of the Commander-in-
Chief in the hands of a civilian. He did not think that
there was a divided responsibility at the present moment,
for the Secretary of State fir War was responsible for
everything connected with the army.
Colonel NORTH also opposed the motion.
Sir ffl. CODRINGTON thought the present system
superior to any which had been suggested in the course
of the discussion.
Lord PALMERSTON opposed the motion, thinking
that the lioe of demarcation between the two offices was
sufficiently definite, and that to give the power to a civi-
lian would be destructive of the interests of the service.
The house then divided—
For the resolution lO6
Against it
Majority in favourof the resolution --2
The result was received with immense cheering on the
back benches on the Opposition side of the house.
THT SUEZ CANAL.
Mr. ROEBUCK called the.attention of the house to
the subject of the Suez Canal, and inoved—" That in
the opinion of this house the power and influence of this
country ought not to be used in order to induce the Sul-
tan to withhold his assent to the project of making a
canal across the Isthmus of Suez." The hon, and learned
gentleman said his motion related only to a canal; but
involved in that question was nothing less than the hon-
our of England. He contended that it was for the inte-
rest of England more than of any other country that the
Suez Canal should be made, and that Lord Palmerston
was wrong in using the influence of this country to in-
duce the Sultan to withhold his sanction to the plan,
under the plea that the project was that of a French
company. He believed that this policy had more to do in
weakening the cordial feeling between this country and
Franca than any. ping else which had occurred likely to
cause estrangement.
Mr. GRIFFITH moved, as an amendment, "That in
any course that this house may sanction in furtherance
of the construction of such a canal, it is expedient that
care be taken that the despotic powers of the Egyptian
Government be not allowed to be made use of by the
promoters of such project to obtain the required labour
from the 'faith' at an inadequate remuneration, by
those compulsory means familiar t ) the practice of that
Government, so as to produce the effects of slavery under
the guise of paid labour."
Lord HADDO thought the amendment was a very
uncourteous one to the ruler of Egypt, and should, there
fore, not be adopted by the house.
Mr. STEPHENSON said that Mr. Roebuck had
dealt in generalities, not in facts. He did not believe
that the engineering difficulties could be overcome, and if
they could, he much doubted if the canal would be found
to be the shortest way to India, for it never could cam.
pete with the railway.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD opposed the motion on poli-
tical grounds, in which the interests of this country were
deeply interested, for it was scarcely good policy to give
to other countries such facilities of reaching our East
Indian possessione.
Mr. M. GIBSON regret'ed that the present Govern-
ment had in this instance adopted the policy of Lord
Palno,rston, and asked if Government would lay the
correspondence upon the subject between this country
and Turkey upon the table ?
Lord PALMERSTON said he did not mean to retire
finally. (A laugh.) Mr. Roebuck bad complained that he
could not learn the reasons which had induced the Go-
vernment to oppose his scheme ; but those reasons had
been fatly .steted in the house. It was one of the greatest
bubbles that had ever been attempted to be imposed on the
credulity of this country. (hear, hear.) Though it might
be made at a great sacrifice of money and human life, as
regarded remuneration it was nothing less than a bubble.
Tao public hmetings referred to by Mr. Gibson were no-
thing like opontanooug expressions of opinion ; they had
bean got up by the promoter. oi the scheme, and though
they had produced resolutions, the necessary subscrip-
t ! tions had not been forthcoming. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
e Stephenson bad explained the difficulty of subsisting the
id labourers employed on such a work ;he had also shown
that even if the canal were made the progress would be
quicker by the railway than it could be by the canal As
i the winds blew f irsix months in one direction, the passage
. of vessels in the other would be seriously obstructed. It
was quite a mistake to say that the Government had
been employed 15 years in preventing the Sultan from
acceding to this measure ; but the Government of Turkey
was as much opposed to it as was the Government of
England. Knowing that the Ottoman Government was
pressed by other powers to sanction the scheme, the
Government of this country had sought to dissuade
them. Mr. Gibson was for maintaining the independ-
ence of Turkey, but he said nothing of the integrity of
Turkey, which was quite as essential to be preserved.
We had sent out expeditions for that object; and every
year that passed showed more strongly the necessity of
maintaining the connection of Turkey and Egypt, and
preventing Egypt from fading into the hands of ary
power opposed to us. (Hear, hear.) Since the siege
of Alexandria, every point of the coast of Egypt had
been most scientifically fortified by engineers and funds
supplied by another country. Were an army of 20,000
men to occupy that line of forts, Egypt would bo per-
fectly impregnable to any army from Turkey. There
remained only one passage for a Turkish army into
Egypt, along the shores of the Mediterranean ; and the
object of this scheme was to bar that passage. Were the
ruler desirous to shake off his allegiance to Turkey, the
existence of this canal would greatly favour the object,
and render the retention of Egypt by Turkey much
more precarious. That was the argument which the
Government of this country had urged on Turkey. It
was also contrary to the interest of England that this
canal should be made, which might be barred to this
country, our sbfps being sent round by the Cape, while
it was open to another power, and gave them ready access
to India. (Hear, hear.) We should not shut our eyes
to these facts, though we might not be actually within
a few hours of war. (A laugh.) After this scheme had
been practically scouted by all the commercial men of
the country—(no)—Yes, " damned with faint praise."
The only result of affirming tais resolution would be to
give a " parliamentary title" to the scheme and send
up the ebares in the market. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
the house would not be deluded into any such cour-e,
but would believe that there would not have been a con-
tinued opposition bysuccseoive Governments unless the
scheme were really opposed to the interests of the coun-
try. (Hear ) ,

EWART said that the scheme was regarded
as a bubble in Liverpool, where he believed a single
share would not be subscribed for.
Mr. GLADSTONE contended that it was not for
the house to decide whether the scheme was or was not
a bubble. The question was, whether they should put
an end to this vici,ms system of arbitrary and gratuitous
reasons against it ? By those reasons the intere.t of Eng-
land was put in oppc &Lion to tlat.of the world, and all
Europe denounced cur op/cm:Lion as unwarrantable and
selfish. He denied that the connection of Turkey and
Egypt depended upon marching an army across the
Isthmus ef Suez. By opposing the scheme, on the ground
of opening new dangers to India, they put the interests
of oar Indian empire against those of mankind. How
i2reat would have been the advantage to us if this canal
had been open last Tar, to facilitate the transmission of
our troops. It would bo England who would obtain the
control of the canal, as the first maritime nation in the .