The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-31 00:00:00

which were very moderate, namely, that they should
have such relations with the court of China as would
prevent those complications which were constantly tak-
ing place, then he did not think the cost would exceed the
estimate. The additional force now required would be
about 5,000 men. The cost of transports . would be
about £200,01[0; that sum, ha believed, would be suffi-
cient for the following year, as he anticipated the trans-
ports would be available to bring the troops home at the
termination of hostilities. One of the heaviest items
would be the supply of coal for the expedition, which
he set down at 1150,000. These were the chief items;
but the whole of the navy estimates for this expedition for
next year would be about £680,000. He believed that would
be very near the amount, but he would not pledge himself
to it. With regard to Canton, he hoped the Government
would soon be able to withdraw their troops from it, and at
present the best feeling existed between the people of that
place and the English. He did not want to go further into
the subject, but he trusted the noble earl would not insist
upon having those returns for which he had moved, which
might be only a conjectural estimate, and would be much
more difficult to make out accurately than if the force had
been sent direct from this country. (Hear.)
The Earl of MALMESBURY said he should not enter at
any length into this question, but he thought it was due to
the Government to which he had the honour to have be-
longed to make some observations in reply to what had
fallen from the noble duke. He was particularly anxious
not to make any observations as to the conduct of Mr. Bence,
who was in one of the most difficult positions that ever a
public servant was placed in; but he should not like it to be
thought that by silence he should give his entire approba-
tion to what took place upon that occasion, and after what
the noble duke had said he felt bound to express his opinion
respecting what had passed,. Ile.believed Mr. Bruce fel,
lowed his instruction* most literally in many respects, but
he (the Earl of Maltuesbury) did not expect, when these
instructions were sent out, that hostilities would take place ;
they were founded on the calculation that matters would go
peaceablyon, and no force would be required. Many of
their lordships were acquainted with diplomatic correspond-
ence, and how difficult it was in every case to convey one's
meaning ; and although he did not blame Mr. Bruce for
making his demand on the Chinese authorities, yet he
thought he was guilty of too much precipitation. The ori-
ginal commissioner entered intu a corresrondence with him
when he insisted on the treaty being carried out, and on the
12th of June a courier started for Pekin with Mr. Bruce's
propositions. Now, that courier could not have arrived at
Pekin until the 22d of June, and certainly at least three
days after his arrival would be required for consideration.
But the proceedings on the Peiho commenced on the 25th,
and on the 24th the action took place of which they com-
plained. Under these circumstances, he thought Mr. Bruce
acted m ith too much precipitancy in the matter. He thought
Mr. Bruce ought to have waited till he got an answer from
the Chinese Government. (Hear.) With respect to their
trade not having suffered in China, he could hardly agree
with the noble duke, or think that his argument was quite
logical, except on the post hoc propter hoc principle. But
under all the circumstances he could not find fault with the
Government for this expedition. They were apt to call the
Chinese nation barbarians end the Chinese Government a
barbarian Goverment. That he believed to be a great
mistake. (Hear.) The Chinese Government were any-
thing but barbarians ; on the contrary, they were vet y clever
people, end ought not to be spoken of or treated as barba-
rian. (Hear, hear.) Having sent an ambassador to China
they ought to treat the Emperor of that county, and ob-
serve towards him the same ceremonies with regard to war
and peaceas towards the Emperor of the French or any
other European sovereign. He therefore thought there
ought to be a legitimate declaration of hostilities before they
commenced war. By not doing so, they were exposing any
prisoners of war to great cruelties, and might get into dif-
ficulties about blockades. Ho agreed with the noble duke
that they could not estimate the expenses, and that all they
could do was to ask for money on accornt.
The Earl of ELGIN said that in rising to address their
lordships on this subject, he did not intend by any prema-
ture expression of opinion to fetter tlat discretion which it
was absolutely necessary he should possess, if he was to
achieve any success by his mission to China, but connected
as he was with the recent proceedings in China ho might be
chargeable with want of respect to the house if he were al-
together to remain silent on that occasion. Now, in the
first place, he must remind the noble earl that if Mr. Bruce
had extended his delay beyond the time when he attempted
to move up the river the period would have passed by
within which the treaty was to be ratified. It was perfectly
true that if the Chinese had acted throughout with good
faith ho might have consented to the delay, but that was not
the state of things whisk existed. Whenhe made the treaty
of Tien-tsin, nutting how unwilling the Government of
China was to have a resident Minister at Pekin, he, al-
though firmly of opinion that unless in some shapeof other
they had direct diplomatic relations with the Court of Pekin
they never would have permanent peace with that country,
stated to the Chinese commissioners—and in that he be-
lieved he had the approval of the noble lord opposite—that
if they received with all duo honour and respect her Ma-
jesty's representative, and if they carried out with perfect
fidelity every other clause of the treaty, he should submit
to her Majesty, and t..) the Government, that it would be
dEsirable her Majesty should exercise the option which the
treaty gave her of not having a permanent Minister at the
capital, but of sending one from time to time as circum-
stances might make it necessary. The Chinese therefore
knew that Mr. Bruce was not only coming out, but that the
strongest possible inducement was held out to them to receive
him with respect. If in the face of the bad faith indicated by
the Chinese, and after he had been told that there was no
difficulty in removing the obstacles on the river, Mr. Bruce
had allowed the period within which the treaty was to be
ratified to elapse he would have incurred a heavy responsi-
bility. (Hear.) He would go into the questions raised by the
noble earl (Grey); but he sincerely hoped—nay, he had a
confident expectation—that the result would prove that the
noble earl had taken a most exaggerated view of the liabili-
ties which this unfortunate Chinese war would entail upon
the country. That was a speculative point, however. But
there was a more practical question of the most important
character behind that. It was th;s—what were the measures
by which they could best bring this unfortunate state of
things to a close, and establish such peaceful relations with
China as woad relieve them from the heavy expenditure
which was required for the protection of their trade with
that country ? That was the practical question to which the
noble earl never alluded, and which occupied the attention
of practical men in China, 'whether they were merchants
engaged in trade, or philanthropists, or statesmen. It had
occurred to her Majesty's Government that his return to the
field of action at the present time, in conjunction with Baron
Gros—of whose able and cordial co-operation ;-a negotiating
the treaty of Tien•tsin he could not speak too highly—
might give the Chinese Emperor an opportunity of propos-
ing terms of accommodation, and of intimating that it was
really his intention to early out faithfully and honourably
the stipulations of the treaty of Tien-tsin. When he was
asked if he would proceed to China, he gave the only an-
swer that a servant of the public could give. He was not
insensible to the honour of a seat in her Majesty's councils,
or of the advantages he must forego in proceeding upon this
expedition, but he felt it would not be right that any objec-
tions of that description should prevent him from doing
what it appeared to him his public duty required. (Hear.)
At he same time he felt bound to say that he would not
have undertaken that mission if he felt it implied en the part
of the Government any slight or reflection on his relative
who represented her Majesty in China at present. (Hear.)
He had been assured by her Majesty's Government that was
not the case. He was assured that they felt no want of con-
fidence in his relative, and that the reason for sending him
was that it was supposed he might have some advantage in
dealing with this question, arising firstly from the circu-
stance to which he had already alluded; and, secondly, mbe-
cause he had necessarily better means than his relative could
have of knowing what were the sentiments of the Govern-
ment,. and he mightalso say,afterhis recent visit to Paris, of
knowing what were the sentiments of the French Govern..
meat. His object in going out on this mission should be to
defeat the calculations of his noble friend as to the cast and
evils that would attend this war. They could not return
to the old state of things when they had but one port of
China with which they could trade, and therefore they
should endeavour to put their new relations with China on
the best and safest footing. Ho was afraid it was utterly
impossible to solve many of the difficulties that occurred
between this country and China except by war or acts of
war. Ho was prepared to prove that not a year elapsed since
the ratification of the treaty of Nankin, in which acts of
war had not been committed, and in which even the indivi-
dual consuls at the ports had not taken it upon themselves
to authorise acts of war. It was all very well to say that
they wanted nothing in China but to trade. But unless
there was security for the property of their merchants, there
could be no trade. (Hear.) Summary acts of war, however
unjustifiable from the point of view of international law,
settled in the lapse of a week what it would have taken six
or seven months to obtain if appeals were to be made from
viceroy to viceroy till the case was laid before the authori-
. _ _

_
ties at Pekin. Even that excellent and benevolent gentle-
man, Mr. Alcoek, was obliged to have recourse to such acts.
In proceeding to China his object should be to carry out his
instructions by bringing these difficulties to a close. He was
not so wedded to his own opinions as to press them unneces-
sarily, if opposed to the views of the Cabinet and the feelings
of the people. Ths noble earl who had just spoken said that
we ought to have made a formal declaration of war, but he
did not think his noble friend had considered all the conse-
quences which might follow from adopting such a course.
Apart from minor considerations, a declaration of war would
involve the necessity of inflicting an enormous amount of
misery on that portion of the people of China with whom
they never had any quarrel, and with whom they desired to

remain at peace. The war in the north of China would be
chiefly conducted between the troops on both sides, and
though he did not undervalue the loss of human life even
under these circumstances, the evil consequences would be
less than if they were to make war on the whole population
of China. The dcctrine had been laid down that the best
way of bringing about an accommodation was to put a
pressure on the people, but that was less true of China than
any other country in the world. He hoped the Government
would not be induced, by any pedantic notions, to increase
the evils of a war which all must ss much deplore. (Hear )
The Earl of MALMESBURY said he did nut wish any
further pressure to be put upon the remote population of
China. What lie had said was, that it' war was to be car-
ried on it ought to be preceded by a declaration of war.
This would be done in the case of every other nation in the
world.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he could not re-
fuse himself the gratification of stating publicly that he
thought no public roan was ever called upon to make so
great a sacrifice as the noble earl had been called upon to
make when he was requested to return to China. He was
performing a public duty, and deserved the greatest grati-
tude on the part of the country. (Hear, hear.) It was
impossible to find anywhere any person to whom the
conduct of the negotiations with the Chinese Govern-
ment could be entrusted with so much hope of success,
through peace, as the noble earl. He had conducted the
former negotiations with a degree of ability and capacity
that was rarely found in the possession of any public man;
and it was particularly desirable that he should be again
associated with the same ambassador on the part of France,
with whom his relations had always been those of personal
amity and friendship. (Hear, hear.) Under those circum-
stances he entertained better hopes than he should under
any other of a pacific result of the mission. But he had
great difficulties to encounter; and one of the greatest and
most serious was that, in conducting a war with a view to
peace, we were compelled to co-operate with a Power which
had not our interests nor our views. 'We desired nothing
but peace with honour; he feared that France desired ho-
nour without peace. 'We desired nothing but submission
from the Chinese Emperor; the French had declared that
they desired to chastise. That was a word that ought not
to be admitted into the language of civilised States ; and he
was sure that no feeling of that description animated the
noble earl. It was a sad thing to be compelled to go into a
war in which it was equally to be regretted that we should
have success or defeat. Defeat would bring great loss, but
success, such as might be obtained if military operations
were conducted against Pekin, would produce one of the
greatest and most appalling and extensive calamities with
which the human race had ever been visited. (Hear, hear.)
There was an unfortunate example of this in the dreadful
war of 1842. It could not be doubted that on the advance
of an hostile army towards Pekin with the prospect of oc-
cupying it, every woman and every child would be sacri-
fied to the heartless and barbarous superstition which pre-
vailed amongst the Chinese. Such would be the dreadful
effect of our success in China. Nor could it be doubted that
the occupation of Pekin for a short period would altogether
destroy the authority of the Chinese Government from one
end of the empire to the other, and would give general
triumph to that horrible collection of men, who could hardly
be regarded as human beings, the rebels who for many
years had been desolating that empire. The noble earl had
seen with his own eyes the effect of that dreadful strug-
gle ; and his sentiments of humanity would induce him to
do all he could to preserve the power of the Government,
the upholding of which could alone re .establish prosperity in
China. He had the greatest confidence in the opinion of
the noble earl; but he had never been able to comprehend
the importance which had always been attached to the pre-
sence of a British Minister at Pekin. (Hear.) If he were
admitted there willingly, with a desire on the part of the
Chinese Govetament to have him there for purposes of
communication and advice, and to prevent those calamities
which had occurred due ing war, then, no doubt, his pre-
sence would be of groat value to the Chinese Government
and to ourselves. But if he were forced upon them, he
would be a constant menace and humiliation to the Chinese
Government, and b's presence could not be attended with
benefit. He implored their lordships to rea•l and ponder
the statement of Mr. Alcock, to which reference had been
made; they would then see that unless our own merchants
and people were controlled, there was no hope of per inanent
peace. (Hear, hear.) To that fact more than any other we
might trace all the difficulties that had occurred since the
trade with China was thrown open. So long as merchants
trading to China were under the strict control of the East
India Company there was no war ; and a single ship occa-
sionally visiting Canton was perfectly sulll6ient to protect
our interests. Since that time there had been a continued
succession of wars; and there was not one to which,
directly or indirectly, the reckless avarice of our own people
had not materially contributed. He held this last war to
have been commenced in utter wantonness ; it was unjust,
and was so from the beginning. He held that it was not
lawful to make war for the purpose of making money.
(Hear) It was a crime. 'We had received one grave rebuke
in the progress of our operations since the war began; he
hoped that wo might not receive another and a graver. We
were now in a position in which it was perhaps impossible
to arrest our course ; but it was a position which we had
brought upon ourselves ; it was founded upon wrong ; and
wrong would not continually be protected by Providence.
(Hear, hear.) To hint this was a most distressing subject,
for when in India he became well acquainted with the
character of war in China. There were statements in the
despatches which he then received giving an account of
the sufferings of the people in consequence of the war which
he dared not publish; he did not dare to make known the
horrors which canto to his knowledge in consequence of that
war. It would be difficult for us at any time so to conduct a
war with China as to avoid a repetition of those horrors—
but he felt convinced that the noble earl, seeing the import-
ance of his mission—how deeply it affected the honour and
interests of this country, and the much higher interests of
humanity--would endeavour to the utmost of his power to
bring these sad hostilities to a pacific termination. (Hear.)
Earl GREY said he was convinced that if the Govern-
ment had wished to give the information which he sought
there would not have been the slightest difficulty in pro-
curing it. Their refusal was a plain symptom of the motives
which he had ascribed to the Government. What had a united
force of 20,000 French and English soldiers, arriving in
China in the middle of summer, to do with the protection of
British lives and property at those places where outrages
had taken place ? The Government ought, in sonic shape
or other, to have invited an expression of opinion on the
part of Parliament, when the whole subject could have been
carefully considered. lie hope I that the question wouldbe
brought before them after the recess. In the meantime, he
trusted that their lordships would read the memorandum of
Mr. Alcock. It was impossible for them to do so without
blushing for the honour of England, and feeling how deep
a responsibility this country was incurring by its proceed-
ings in that quarter. Perhaps it was the best course which
they:could adopt to send out the noble earl; but he re-
gretted that it had not been done sooner. He would not
press the motion.

- The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that on no occa-
sion he had been compelled to make an estimate for an ex-
pedition to China ; and he could at least state that it was
perfectly possible, and that it was done in a very short time.
The motion was then withdrawn.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Lord REDESDALE moved—" That no private bill
brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second
time after Tuesday, the 3d day of July next. That no bill
confirming any provisional order of the Board of Health, or
authorising any inclosure of lands under special report of
the Inclosure Commissioners for England and Wales, or for
confirming any scheme of the Charity Commissioners for
England and Wales, shall be read a second time after Tues-
day, the 3d day of July next. That when a bill shall have
passed this house with amendments, these orders shall not
apply to any new bill sent up from the House of Commons
which the chairman of committees shall report to the house
is substantially the same as the bill so amended."

MR. WHITWORTH'S INVENTIONS.
The Earl of CAM PERDOWN asked what steps the Go-
vernment had taken in order to secure for this country the
benefit of Mr. Whitworth's inventions in rifled fire-arms and
projectiles. After claiming indulgence as a new member of
the house, the noble earl stated that he had given this notice
without any communication with Mr. Whitworth. He
brought forward the matter, not as a private grievance, but
as a question of national importance. It was the duty of
the Government to take the earliest opportunity of securing
every new invention in regard to fire-artus. In moving the
army estimates, Mr. S. Herbert had stated that the increase
was partly to be attributed to the necessity of laying in
stores of new arms and projectiles .f war, which the advance
of science had introduced, and which the neighbouring
countries of Europe were rapidly adopting. Acting upon
that principle, very large
,orders had been issued by the
Government for the Armstrong gun. He did not wish to
say a word in disparagement of the admirable invention
Sir Wm. Armstrong ; his guns were superior to any previ•
ously used, and he deserved credit for the improvement ho
had introduced. But he should be glad to have one point ex-
plained. At present Sir W. Armstrong occupied rather an
anomalous position. He had been appointed superintendent
of the royal gun factories, and he was also a contractor for the
guns. In appointing him superintendent of the factories, the
Government could have had no intention of placing in the
hands of Sir William and his firm the monopoly of supplying
those guns. Recently very great improvements had been
made in the artillery invented by Mr. 'Whitworth. Mr.
Whitworth was one of those geniuses who fortunately were
not rare in this country, who, commencing life as a working
man in this metropolis, in the establishment of Messrs.
Maudslay and Co., had worked himself up from receiving
wages to the height of professional reputation. (Hear, hear.)
There was no one more highly looked up to by scientific