The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-12 00:00:00

measure going to that extent, only with a few subsidiary al-
terations required to carry it into effect, would most mate-
rially eonduceto the peaceful and satisfactory settlement of
the difficulties in which they were involved. He had always
stated that he considered a council of India essential to its
good government, but that council should be thoroughly
independent—(hear) —and he considered that at least a por-
tion of it should be of an elective character. The petitioners,
the proprietors of East India stock, had themselves caused
the danger which now threatened the Company—they had
caused it by their mode of electing directors. If they had
been actuated by public spirit, and, looking around them
for the ablest men and those of the highest reputation in
the Indian service, had placed them among the directors,
no government would have dared to touch them, and they
would have conciliated the affections and commanded the
approbation and confidence of the country. It was because
they had departed from that rule—because they had been
led by private interests, and had given to canvass what they
ought to have given to services—that danger now threatened
them. It was this misconduct on their part which had
' enabled her Majesty's Government, without any material
opposition, to introduce in the court at the last settlement
six members to be appointed by the Crown. Although
he might question the manner in which the power had
been exercised on one or two occasions, yet every one must
admit that there was more strength, more reputation,
more that could be trusted in the five directors appointed
by the Crown, than in the whole of the other thirteen ;
of the thirteen only three had any claim at the time of
their election on account of services in India ; several of
them of course had since acquired knowledge and practice
which rendered them competent. One of the best mem-
bers of tho court he ever know was a captain of a ship, who
knew nothing of India but what he saw from the dock of
his vessel; but, being an honest and able man, he soon
became an excellent director. He considered the present
time peculiarly inopportune for the consideration of this
question. If indeed there had been any obstruction on
the part of the court to the measures of the government
foe reinforcing the army—if they had not made themselves
ancillary in all respects to the objects of the government,
then there would have been a necessity for an instant alte-
ration. If in such a case he were in the Ministry, he would
have called the Parliament together instanter, and made
a change in order to save India. But he had never heard
even a suggestion that such was the case. Indeed it was
impossible to conceive it could. Tho court must have
known the danger, and he was convinced the Government
had some influence in the court, and had only to intimate
a wish to have it at once adopted. It was evident that
such was the case ; for by the present law, if the Govern-
ment sent more than 24,000—except at the request of the
Company—they should pay for them. The noble baron
could not move one man or one gun without sending to the
India-house to get the board to go through the form of
asking for them. When the bill of 1853 was before the
house he differed from his friends, and wished it should
pass; he saw that war was looming, and advised them to
set their house in order, and not be forced to discuss so
important a measure when their attention was distracted
by war. The next year the Crimean war broke out ; Go-
vernment was pledged to introduce a measure of reform,
but withdrew it, on the ground that it could not be properly
considered. They were now involved in a much greater
war. (Hear.) With insufficient forces they were strug-
gling with a greater enemy, and yet at this moment they
ware required to reconstruct the whole government of
India, and also to consider that very reform bill; they
were desired to take to pieces the whole constitution of the
government of India, and at the same time take to pieces
that most important part of the constitution of this coun-
try which regulated the election of the House of Commons,
(Hear.) He knew very well what the result would be.
When the bill was brought in it would be debated much
more than the Government imagined. In the mean-
time they would be compelled by the unanimous
clamour of the attorneys, who were more interested
in reform thou anybody else ; by the press, which
they influenced ; and by the pressure from a few earnest
men, to hiring in a measure of reform. When that was
done the passion of all f arties would be so much excited
that attention would no longer be paid to the details of the
measure for regulating the Government of India, and while
they were involved in a party quarrel the Government of
India would slip from their hands. (Hear.) Before they
engaged in the consideration of this measure he entreated
them to consider what their position in India really was.
They had been told fortnight after fortnight, as each tele-
graphic message had arrived, that the head of the mutiny
was broken, that it was crushed, yet the mutiny still ex-
isted. They had just heard that Sir Colin Campbell had
taken Furruckabad. He had reason to know what was the
exact force under the Commander-in-Chief, under General
Outrun, and under Col. Seaton, on Dee. 7. At that date
the total force with Sir C. Campbell was 11,0J0 men, ex-
clueive of the artillery, who served 36 guns. From that
period till Deo. 20, 230 men a day were forwarded from
Calcutta by daks. All these would have arrived by the
day Furruckabad was taken. Ho had left two regiments
at Benares, so that the whole force at his disposal for field
operations would he at the outside 17,500 men. The Go-
vernor General of India may have shown energy and ability
(parliament said he had, and Parliament must be right) in
summoning to his aid as may troops as possible, and in
providing land carriage for the detachments mentioned,
but these qualities had not enabled him to provide G,500
with the carriage, without which they could not move. In
point of fact, Sir Colin Campbell, after his victory, was
detained a whole fortnight at Cawnpore, because he had
not the means of moving. Did it appear that a single one
of the new cavalry regiments was yet mounted ? Had
they a single horse fit for service ? Was a single one
of the batteries sent out yet horsed Elephants were
essential during the rains, yet not a single elephant
tvas sent up till the rains were over. In dry weather
camels were very useful. They might have mounted cavalry
armed with lances on there ; but no camels were pro-
vided. If they could not have got horses, even bullocks
would have been useful. They were told it was a mutiny
and not a revolution, and yet at this moment Sir C. Camp-
bell held nothing on the left bank of the Ganges above
Allahabad. Between Allahabad and Benares he held
nothing but the high road OH which his detachments moved.
They held nothing ou the right bank of the Jumna. The
whole of Central India was up against them, and the armies
even of the princes who had remained faithful had revolted
against their masters. A column under Colonel Durant
had done excellent service, and relieved Neemuch ; but
they had no force able to clear the right bank of the Nei,
b udda. Saugor had never been relieved. They had lately
heard of an outbreak at Oodypore ; they would be obliged
all through Central India not merely to relieve their garri
sons, but also to appear in force to re-establish the autho-
rity of those princes who had remained faithful to them.
For all this they required an army which they had not now.
He should like to know what measures were being takes
to ensure a continuous supply of a number of men sufficient
to execute the measures which were absolutely necessary
to restore their authority and put down the enemy. The
noble baron bad told them there was a continuous supply
of 1,000 men a month • but he doubted whether such was
the case. Their first duty was to re-establish their empire
and authority of the princes who had been faithful. When
that was done, and they stood sovereign in the country, it
would be time to think of framing a new government.
That had always been his opinion, and he trusted it would
become that of her Majesty's Government. They had to
contend not merely with mutiny but with a revolution.
He wished he could think it was only a moony. If it were,
as soon as the enemy was put down in the field the whole
country ought to have returned to its former condition.
But did any man think that during any existing life,
Eegliehman, still less an Englishwoman, would be
aide to pass through the country with the feeling of
security and reality of security which they had enjoyed
for the last one hundred years? Tho beau'siful con-
fidence between them and the natives lead gone,
he would not say for ever, but it had gone during
the life of living men. When they read the in-
teresting, but painful letters written by persons who had
fled for their lives, they could not doubt the people were
against them ; they were hunted from village to village,
stripped, forced to fly, and but rarely found a faithful ze-
minder to shelter them. It was not a mere hunting of
them ; the fiendish atrocities committed were such as had
never been heard of before. He had read of men being
tortured, he had read of injuries done to women, but never
in his life before had he road of cruelties practised on chil-
dren. They had heard of children dyieg of thirst under
the sun of India, and not allowed to take a drop of wa'er
from a village well. Such intense international hatred
must have proceeded from some deeply seated cause. He
believed there was such a cause, and on a future occasion
he would give their lordships his views on it. One circum-
stance was the apprehension excited in the natives by the
spirit of proselytism which was abroad, not directly sahc-
tinned by the Government, but which, being practised by
persons in high office and high authority, assumed all the
appearance and carried all the weight of a Government
act. He was himself well aware that the resumption of
rent-free tenures had involved in many cases the privation
of property inherited from distant ancestors. He believed
also that the recent further annexaelons and the disap-
pearance of the only remaining power in rivalry might
have greatly increased that feeling of contempt for the
natives laid to the charge of their countrymen. He knew
that feeling had produced a mutiny in Bundelcund ,and it
might have tended to produce this. He dial not know that
the substitution of the Queen's name might effect this
feeling in the heart of the civil service, but he believed it
would have the effect of producing in the officers a better
spirit of obedience to authority. He only knew two men
in the country of whom he could not say they were those,
" qui namselota interpretare magic quam sequi mallent."
Many of those gentlemen, when they get an order, con-
sider and discuss it, and at length send out a report against
an order, an order which ought to have been executed
long before. He believed the substitution of the name of
the crown would in this respect have a great effect. (Hear,
hear.) Even under present circumstances the evil wee less
than under the old system of appointment to the civil per-
vics by the directors. When there was a close connection
between officers and the individual members of the board,
they often ventured to disobey an order, especially if the
Governor-General was not popular with the court, trusting
that they would he protected at home. (Hear.) He be-
lieved a change of system, and the introduction of the
Queen's name, would be particularly gratifying to the na-
tive princes. He would venture to suggest to her Majesty's
Government that they should set aside for future mature
consideration the details of a general measure for altering
the relations between the Board of Directors and the army,
and content themselves with a simple measure to provide
for the use of the Queen's name in the administration of
the government, with a few not very important alterations,
necessary corollaries to the change. He always looked with
great distrust on any attempt to extemporise constitutions;
time and God's providence alone made constitutions; men
with self-sufficient arrogance thought they could throw ofe
constitutions to make happy millions of their fellows
crestures, but they wore haffled by the providence which
despised their infinite smallness. In the Indian govern-
ment there was much more of practice than of law ; any
attempt to carry out the law would bring the government
to a standstill. Mr. Dandas, when he found his measure
eeeild net werk, adopted the system that he found. To
make a good government they should look to the practice
of farmer times much more than to any endeavour to make
a perfect constitution. Tho Court of Directors, in their I
petition, described a perfect council of India, and then said,
" We ourselves aro the great and noble model, such as an
able President of the Board of Control would desire."
rho coun oil which he would suggest to aid the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control or Secretary of State, as
the case might be, should be elective, and might pos.
eeis,at.ntheeryil.s.ed constituency, and contain re-
stte,,bnreit,f,litriebv
retashna.netlioNtvoaofsndlyon e leecaiidh administration
rptirsets idency, but of each
in
time each\vo
would
presidency.e
consideration, so that they would be enabled so to
.filter end lee )rove the Government that it should tend to
fee •
(Closers.) desired to found—an eternal empire in India.

Lord .A.BINGEIt said that so far as he could understand
the plan of the Government, it was to assimilate the
Board of Contra' to the system of administration pursued
in other colonies. Re could not but look on such a ohange
with fauspicion! Let them look to the history of India io
_ •

- -
the last century and a-half, and compare its rise in pro-
verity and greatness with the fate of other colonies under
the undiluted system of colonial government. During that
period the Colonial-office had lost the North American
colonies, driven Canada to rebellion, and excited them to
war at the Cape • it appeared to him that if this system
was to be introduced into the government of India, the
loss of India was inevitable. Probably many causes con-
curred to produce the present calamitous state of India ;
but no one he thought could doubt that the annexation of
Oude was the proximate cause of the existing state of
things. Was that annexation the act of the Governor-
General or the Board of Control, or the joint act of the
Board of Control and the Court of Directors ? He pro-
fessed entire ignorance ; and the public were in ignorance
on the subject, and yet it was of importance that they
should know the real facts in order to arrive at a right
decision as to the cause of these calamities. He hoped the
Government would, for this reason, countenance the pro-
duction of this correspondence. The annexation of the
Punjaub and Pegu were carried into execution with great
ability and facility, but it did not follow from this that
the annexation of Oude would be equally successful. The
noble lord concluded by moving for the correspondence
between the Court of Directors, the Board of Control, and
the late Governor-General of India, relating to the annexa-
tion of Oude; and the correspondence between the said
board and the directors on the same subject.
Earl STANFIOPE said he did not rise for the purpose of
opposing the motion, bat on a point of order. He wished
to know whether the petition that had been presented by
the noble earl—the merits of which in point of style and
ability were admitted both by him and the noble duke—
should not be printed for the general information of the
house. Ho begged to suggest to the Government that the
petition be panted and circulated for the use of their
lordships.
Earl GRANVILLE said there was a doubt about the
rule of the house on the point, hut the rule generally fol-
lowed was, petitions should not be printed, and there was
the less occasion for it on the present occasion because there
was no member of the house who would not have the peti-
tion in print, if he had not had it already. With regard to
the subject generally, he would not enter upon it in the
present state of the house, and even if it had been fuller,
he should not feel any great necessity for doing so, after
the singularly able and temperate speech of the noble duke.
If that were the proper time, however, there wore some
arguments of the noble earl (Grey) which he thought he
could confute, and some of his facts which he could show
to be without foundation, as, for instance, the statement
that the Afghan war had been disapproved of by the
Court of Directors. [Earl Grey here made an observation
which did not reach the gallery.] His noble friend, how-
ever, with his usual good Sense, did not concur in the only
prayer of the petition, namely, that there should be an in-
quiry. If there was to be any change at all, he was of
opinion that the sooner it took place the better. lie was
extremely glad to hear from the noble earl opposite, whose
remarks were of great importance and deserved the utmost
consideration of the house, the declaration that nothing
would have greater effect in India at the present moment
than the Queen's name. He could not conceive anything
more desirable and seasonable than that at the moment of
incipient pacification, measures should be taken here which
the noble earl told them would have the most soothing
effect on the whole population of Tuella, ensure the more
ready obedience of European subjects there, and be grate-
ful to the native princes of India. (Hear, hear.) This
was the reason why her Majesty's 6-overnment thought it
necessary to bring a measure before the house. They
thought it right, not as was generally supposed, to change
the whole government of India—but to introduce a mea-
sure for the simplification of that government by the in-
troduction Queen's name, and altering a system
which
h of the
intheoryand
practice was admitted to be most
faulty. He hoped both houses of Parliament would well
weigh the alternative—either of carrying this measure,
which was not to destroy the India House, but to remove
the Court of Directors, retaining the services of such men
as the noble earl opposite referred to, and affording the
people of India the advantage of being governed in the
Queen's name, or of having the government of India still
conducted by that company, after the clamour which had
been raised against it—after it had been condemned in a
long and matured speech by the leader of the Conservative
party in the other house—and after the opinions which
had been delivered by the best followers of Sir R. Peel.
He could not conceive anything more calculated to create
an injurious impression in the minds of the people of In-
dia, and on the subjects of the crown in India, than that
sort of delay which would leave ambiguity existing as to
the future government of India, and the measures of the
government open to attacks on all sides.
Tho Earl of DERBY said the state of the house was
certainly not such as to encourage a continuation of the I
discussion, but still he was induced to rise by the state-
ment which had just been made by the noble earl opposite.
He must say that if it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government to do nothing more on the present occasion
than what was stated by the noble earl—though at the
present time and under existing circumstances he did not
mean to say it would be judicious even to do that— but if
it really were the intention of her Majesty's Government
to make a more alteration of form, and not one of substance
1 in the government of India, they kept the country and the
East India Company in the most profound ignorance, and
created unnecessary alarm by the intimation which they
gave to the East India Company that it was their inten-
tion to abolish the double government of India. Could any
man suppose, after such an intimation, that the inten-
tion of her Majesty's government was to do nothing more
than make an alteration in point of form—that the
existing state of things was to be left untouched, with this
difference cnly, that the government of India was to be
conducted in the name of the Crown and not of the Com-
pany ? If this was all that was really intended in the first
instance, her Majesty's governmeat must be fit subjects for
a lunatic asylum in not explaining their views more clearly
to the East India Company. When her Majesty, in the
speech from the throne. told them that the affairs of India
would require their serious consideration, and recotn-
mended them to their serious attention, did the govern-
ment intend to move for a committee, or were they going
to legislate ou their owe responsibility ? Neither the East
India Compamy nor the country could say what they were
going to do. In a short time, however, they gave notice
that they were going to do away with the double govern-
ment ; and when the East India Company very naturally
asked what the government were goiieg to substitute for it,
the government replied, " We have told you that we are
going to do away with the double government, but what
the government have in contemplation it will be time
enough for you to know when parliament meets." If they
meant to do nothing more than what they were now given
to understand it was their intention to do, he insist say
they created great and unnecessary alarm, and treated the
East India Company with the greatest want of courtesy. If
the measure was to be an insignificant anti formal one they
they expectevde,rtnhme.Yenn:::
should have told the East India Company that fact, which
would have removed a great deal of the apprehension which
prevailed. But the real
would
factul submit;was,
nt;he /yb:rueitdbfinrnootlitiignlstigntotfwhoort
forward
ea diffi-
culties irnd
selves what they wero to met. They had not made uphtotehafrae.il:r
minds before parliament met. They then made up their
minds to an extensive measure to wahnidchhtahweyaseixnp,eepcatreeddthtoe
immense and immediate
East I ngdriea,,
tCompanygreater
than
friend ogpeporasiitgehtdee
oisbeialeee
tkandefipol miserableamrut toloti ef i
her
aenorntr
icmg
anticipate
isaitelges
fit,shcthe intention
Government.
advent, ee which his noble fiend (the Earl of Ellen-
borough) looked for from the substitution of the name
of the Queen for that of the company. At all events, whe-
ther that were so or not, it was most unfortunate that her
Majesty's government should have taken upon themselves
to introduce at this moment, and under present circum-
stances, any change at all. (Hear.) If the state of India
f India
ware indeed in a state of incipient pacification; if peace
ariserib described
were restoi ed, and ou: supremacy re-established, ho could
turnoddeurcsttiaonndotfhtaht g ;tai etean'isv anta
name as the dispenser of mercy
were snob as his noble
and the restorer of concord. But he was sure the govern-
ment deceived themselves and the public if they persuaded
themselves, or soughtto persuade the country, that they
had arrived at that stage in which it could be said that our
victory was complete, and thatpacification had commenced.
For his own part, whether the measure was great or small,
he deprecated the introduction of such a question and the
rising of differences between her Majesty's government and
the East India Company at the present moment. The
circumstances were sufficiently grave, the position
sufficiently difficult, and the state of affairs sufficiently
critical, to engross the whole and undivided attention of
the government and the East India Company for Oise pur-
pose of putting down the existing revolt, and restoring the
protmrapilteitiainliti t
supremacy of the crown and the company ; and yet it was
at such a moment, and under such circumstances, that her
Majesty's government thought fit to introduce a subject
which was sure to excite differences, and distract the at-
iention of the government and the East India Company
fenergetic action which
wasroth
that common,
to India. (Hear.) It
appeared perfect madness to raise the question at this
required
to restore
time. He understood from the noble earl that the mea-
sure was one of a much lees serious character than was
supposed ; but any measure regarding the government of
India would require serious and mature deliberation ; but
ho believed the pubic was not then prepared for a measure
of this kind, nor was that the period in whiOk it could bo
safety and properly introduced.
The motion was then agreed to, and their lordships ad-
journed at half-past 8,

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
NEW WRITS.
Oa the motion of Nir. 1121.YTER a new wr:t was
granted for Wicklow
(County) in the room of Lord Mil.
tun, called to the Upper House as Lord Fita,villiam.
PETITIONS.
Several petitioLa Were pre.ented relative to the pro-
posed change in the Government of India.

- - -------
EDUCATION (ENGLAND.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON rcse to move the following rsso'u-
tion :—• That an humble address bo presented to her Ma-
jBeiosty,tothiantqusihiee:iwintou
tbheegraprecsieonutslsytapteleoafsedpoptuoliasrsueedauccaotmi?mniisn-
England, and whether the present system is or is not suffi-
cient for its object; and to consider and report what changes,
if any, are required for the extension of sound and cheap
elementary instruction to all classes of the people." Ho said
he was personally reluctant again to 'invite the attention of
th 3 house to the question of national oducaticu, and ho hoped
the house would believe that in doing so ho was only ear:Wed
by a sense of public duty. He well knew the disinc'inatiou
the house had to hear a subject repeatedly brought forward
by t'r.e same person, but he treated they would boar in mind
that tliough this was no .part; subject, nor- of-any political
bea.ing in a party sense, it was a subject directly affecting in
the hiOiest sense a most numerous a helple s class of our
fellow-subjects. In submitting his proposition for the appro-
val of a newly--elected House of Commons, ho should not
enter into a detailed statement as formerly, with a view to
establish the educational deficiency that exist' d in this coun-
t' y. The statements he put forth on a former occasion with
r.speet to that deficiency had never been contradicted, and
he proposed on the present occasion to base his argument of
defieie .cy on them. On a former occasion he referred to the
statements of chaplains of gaols, and amongst them to the
statement of the Rev. Mr Clay, of Preston, who stated that
40 per cent. of V_ e prisoners committal to Preston gaol word
ignorant of the name of our Saviour, and from 60 to 70 per
cent. were ignorant of the name of the Queen. He also stated
-the ignorance of an immense number of the children in the
Lond(..n workhouses, as well as those in the workhorses of
Birmiugham, Manchester, and other large places, obtained
from the oficial statements of the inspectors of schools, The
Deal of Hereford also spoke of the great ignorance that
existed in Bath and Wells, Wiltshire, and other places, and
as they had not been contradicted be (Sir J. Pakington)
had a right to say they were correct. That rev, gentleman
often lamented the ignorance that prevailed both in the rural
- districts and the towns, the want of schools, and the lava.
_ .

cieney of those in existence. lie had been asked what was
the necessity of a commission of inquiry, when all the infor-
mation they desired was to be found in the reports of the
oft report
last
year,
a h
re,
was Government inspector—but his answer was that he needed
calletdhaatttoefritthieonße t
vo.,
no stronger evidence in support of an inquiry than the re-
ports
inMr. Stewart, the Government inspector for Cambridgeshire,
Huntingdonshire, Bedfordshire, Herefordshire, and Bucking-
contained
tbe
blue-book The
firs
hamshire, at pages 446 and 447, wherein he spoke of the dif-
ficulty that existed in remote agricultural districts for the
advancement of education, and the insufficiency of the Go-
vernment grants for the demands of the various districts re-
quiring help. The Rev. Mr. Wood, the Government inspec-
tor for Berkshire, gave a similar statement ; and Mr. Mit-
chell, the Government inspector for Norfolk, Suffolk, and
Essex, reported that out of 205 schools, 41 were excellent,
35 were so bad that it would be a great a Ivantsge to stop
them, and 129 were more or less efficient—some progressing,
others retrograding. He did not know how the Government
proposed to meet his motion, but he had based it on the re-
ports of their inspectors, whom he presumed were trust-
worthy, and would 'melee contradicted or disputed by the
Government. (Hear.) In his (Sir .T.Pakington's) own neigh-
bourhood, Mr. I3ellair expressed his regret at the partial ex-
tent of education there. In very many places, both in town
and country the schools were inefficient, and it was much to
be desired that an inquiry should take place into the edu-
cational deficiencies of the country, from thestatements being
so vague and coat adictory that it was almost impossible to
arrive at a proximation of the truth. The right hon. baronet
read a letter ho had that morning received from the Rev.
Mr. Stone, of Bethnal-greeu, stating that a school in the
new parish of St. James's, Bethnal-green, for 200 bays, had
been obliged to be closed for two years for want of funds,'and
there was no chance of its being re-opened. In reference to
the funds of schools, Mr. Watkins, inspector of York, on a
former occasion, stated that he had divided England ieto
twenty-two educational districts, and there were only two out
of that where the expenditure did not exceed the income. In
1855-56 the excess of expenditure over income was G per cent.
and in 1856.57 it had increased to 71 or 8 per cent. Another
point which attracted attention was the early age at which
children loft school—an overwhelming proportion of them
were under 10 years of ago, and what was worse the number
increased from year to year. From a return furnished him
by the Secretary to the Educational Board, he found that the
children at school, above 10 years of age from 1850 to 1857
inclusive, was 37 and a fraction per cent. ; in 1852 it was 39
and a fraction, brit every other year it had decree' ed unti
it had sunk from 37 and a fraction to 27 and a fraction
from " Johnson's Atlas of Physical Geography," he found
that:out of a list of 17 countries, showing the estimated per-
centage of the populaticn between 7 and 14 years of age re-
ceiving instruction in those different countries, he was sorry
to find England stood tenth on the list—(hear)—the highest
was Saxony, where, within a slight fraction, the whole of the
children of the above; ages were at school. In the United
States and New England, they were 95 per cent; in Holland
94 per cont. ; and then came Prussia, Switzerland, Denmark,
Sweden and Norway, Belgium, Austria, and then England,
which only amounted to 45 per cent. The same contrast was
preseutedby other portions of our own country, for Scotland
stands very far above England in that respect. In Canada
an admirable system of education existed, and in Australia
the people were most anxious to establish a sound system of
education that should reach all parts of the population.
The question of education was regarded less within the
walls of that house than any part of the kingdom which
he attributed to their being too prone to devote
their attention to party struggles than to direct
their attention to those matters that only affected the welfare
andlinterests of the people apart from sneh party struggles.
(Hear, hear.) A strong feeling was entertained out of doors
on the question, not by noisy politicians, who were striving
to promote political changes, but an important class of persons
who constituted public opinion on this question, and to which
he deferred ; in support of which ho referred to the educa-
tional conference held last summer, and presided over ty
Prince Albert, for the devising means for preventing children
leaving school at an early age. He (Sir J. Pakington) believed
they must look to the half-time system for a remedy both in
towns and agricultural districts. He considered it could be
carried out successfully, and he alluded to its adoption by
the lion, member for Nottingham and Lord Hatherton in the
country districts. He also appealed to the noble lords (Rus-
sell and Stanley), and also to the hon, members for Hullers-
field in reference to the interest expressed in the question of
education, at a meeting for the promotion of social science,
presided over by Lord Brougham. If he had established
that the educational state of the country was unsatisfactory,
and out of doors great interest was felt in the question, he
was justified in asking the house to join him in his endeavour
to solve this difficult question ; and then arose the question.
in what manner it could best be done, In asking for an in-
quiry into the subject, he did not consider he was
was
from his former
expressed opinion that the house compe-
tent to do so ; but it was perfectly clear the GOTC!nment were
not disposed to do so, as he thought they ought (and in say.
ing that he begged to remark that he was not censuring the
Government, because any other Government would feel
equally indisposed to do so,) (Hear.) In 1855 and 1857 he
attempted to legislate on the question, but he failed from acci-
dental causes. In 1855 he was unable to go to a division and
take the sense of the house on the question from want of
time, and in 1857 he was prevented by the dissoltution of Par-
liament. But in the intervening year the noble lord the
member for London brought forward his bill, which was de-
feated, more from feelings of opposition and prejudice rather
than reason and argument. He believed that had the house
gone to a division, though the prieciples were sound, they
would have been defeated. As the question now stood there
was no immediate prospect of legislation, and the question
was, whether they should leave it as it now was, or whether
they might fairly and reasonably expect that the present sys-
tem under the Commit' eo of Council and grants of Parlia-
ment, would so grow and expand that they might look to that
system as sufficient for the educational requirements of the
country. Ho was as conscious as any man could be of the
great advantages derived from the Committee of Conned, and
had hailed with satisfaction their grants, and the extent to
which they hal fostered and encouraged education, In 1856
the noble lord the member for London said it was not the ob-
ject of those who founded the system of the committee of
council that that system should supersede all local efforts, but
that it should rather form a nucleus of an educational move-
ment. In that statement he (Sir J. Pakington) concurred :
but he still considerd it questionable whether that system
could be carried much further. He believed that for the future
the amount of the grant would bo increased by 100,000/., but
if the system was to be extended, the number of inspectors
would jiave greatly to be increased. Would not this augmen-
tation lead to centralisation? (Hear, hear, from 31r. Henley.)
He doubted whether the powers of the committee of council
were not greater now than they ought to be, The expenditure
of so largo a sum of money, spread over so large an area, must
inevitably, ho thought, baffle a proper supervision. Minute
and complicated arrangetneirs connected with the distribution
of the grant would not work advantageously. The present
system he might characterise as half a system, and ho should
like to see it more nearly approximated to the poor-law sys-
tem, into which local superintendence largely entered. In-
quiry, ho contended, was desirable en these grounds, but
It was also called for by reason of the length of time whiek
had elapsed since the question of public education had been
the subject of Parliamentary inquiry. There had been insole"-
in 1818 at the instance of Lord Brougham, whose exertions
deserved all praise. Inquiry was also made in 1834-5 ; but
since 1852, when a committee sat on the Manchester and Sal-
ford Bill, public iuvestigation had rot taken place. The last
committee had dealt rather with a subject of local than of
national importance. Believing that inquiry was loudly called
for, he had the alternative of a commission or of a committee.
By asking for a committee ho might, perhaps, have obtained
a greater share in directing its deliberations, and pressing
them forward; but the collection of evidence was a matter in-
volving considerable time, and all such inquiries were inure or
less tinged with the opinions and views of individual mem-
bers. A commission, on the other band, wuitid pruse,rate its
labours with the assistance of Government. There was a con-
siderable analogy between the reference to the Poor-law Com-
mission of 1833 and that which ho now asked the house to
grant. Much advantage had arisen from the former commis-
sion, the Government of the day having immediately fouudod
a measure of lasting benefit upon its report. The only differ-
ence between the former eorumission and the ono he asked was
that the former was the spontaneous act of the Minister of the
Crown, whilst the present commission was asked by one not
an habitual supporter of the Government of the day. Ho
hoped the Government would rise superior to any considera-
tiou of this kind, and that they would grant, in the great in
terests of popular education, the commission, (Cheers.)
Lord STANLEY seconded the motion.

Mr. HARDY complimented the right honourable baronet
the member for Droitwich upon the moderation which
had marked his speech ; but the real question at issue was,
whether the present system of education had gradually
advanced that boon in the country, and whether as much
progress had been made as could reasonably be expected.
Ile believed that education had ramified of late years, and
that in proportion es the educating class improved the con-
dition of the poorer classes would also improve. The present
comtnissieuers of education were obtaiuiug more knowledge
respecting education, and adding to the niamb,r and improv-
ing the character of our schools. They had already as much
information as was wanted, and wore not to rest their opinions
on the report of a commission. They could best improve edu-
cation by their own efforts in their respective localities. If,
as was said, the matter was not ripe for legislation, the rea-
son was the country- did not want legislation.

Mr. lIADFIELD moved an amendment to the resolution
to the effect that the commission should he appointed to in-
quire whethar tho education should be wholly secular or
wholly religious, or partly the one and partly the other ; and
if religious, what religion they would recommend. The right
hon, baronet appeared alw rye determined to make out that
thwe was a great want of education in the country. But what
were the facts! During the last year 544,000,00 letter:4 of
all sorts passed through the Post-office, and this eat/mous
amount of c nfidenco must afford evidence of how well the
People were educated, and if the existing systoot were con-
tinued for a few years longer, he felt confident that the num-
bers of letters pas.iug through the Post-offie r would not be
less than a thousand millions in the year. There were in the
different Sunday and day schools in the country not less than
3,591,000 scholars, and this out of a total p vulation of
18,030,000. The number of scholars was greatly Increasing,
and the next census would, he believed, exhibit a most sur-
prising increase iu the number of teachers and scholars. The
increased circulation of the newspapers was also another proof
of the extent of education in the country. Tll3 Sunday schools
of the country were doing an immense amount of good, and
they would be seriously endangered by any act of the G >vent-
moot which would bring it ioto anything like opposition to
the conduct of those very excellent establishments, in which
the working classes felt so much interest, and in which they
reposed a large amount of confidence. (Hoar, hear,)
Mr. GILPIN seconded the amendment,
Mr. ACKROYD expressed himself favourable to the pro•
posed commission, and thou4ht that such a mode of inquiry
would be more preferable than one by means of a committee.
Believing that the inquiries of the commission would be
attended with benefit to the cause of education, h• should
feel great pleasure in giving his suppo t to the resolution of
the right hon, baronet the member for Droitwish (Hear.)
Mr. A. B. HOPE could not make up Iris mind to believe
that the practical effect of the proposed resolution would be
any other than an addition of a bulky blue-book to the
numerous other works of a similar class under which the
shelves of public and private libraries already groaned.
There was already a huge Tower of Babel of educational
literature, and the effect of the appoiu ing of this commission
would be only to add another coping stone to the already
bulky and useless pile. (Hear, hear.) He believed that if the
commission were appointed it would only endorse the pr,:sent
system of education, which had been found to work so well
and so practically.

?Ir. RICHARDSON said that if the motion had applied to
Ireland he should have given it his most strenuous opposi-
tion.

sionf INv.. oluVidje-oreX said it
h Lad
nsssnaine(eldreticioamt
mtheenedoaitiliouniss-
and then those conclusions and recommendations had beet;
vigorouely assailed. Now he saw no reason at all why they
tocerta'cod nelu been
sio a
should anticipate such recommendationi. This was a com-
mission of inquiry, and he was content to wait the results of
that inquiry.

Mr. ADDERLEY said the house had been anxious to hear
the opinions of the Government. When the right hon. baro-
net proposed his resolution he (Mr. Adderley) was called on
to weigh the proposition whether the present system of edu-
cation had been advantageous or detrimental, and he was in.
cline(' to beliovs that the present Ustcra iircatQd well,

Supposing, however, they were to have an inquiry, he con-
sidered they ha i a sufficient organisation in inspectors for
the purpose without the appointment of a commission that
would entail an immense expense. Allusion had been made
to the Poor-law Commissions, and he would remind the house
that it cost the country 50,000/.—a smaller sum than such a
roving commission as this would cost. The present inspectors,
he thought, might give them all the information they needed,
They were a large body needlessly multiplied from every sect
of religion, having its inspector iu every locality, and much
of the time was occupied in writing vicious reports, three-
fourths of the contents being essays on theories of education,
and each vieing with the other in producing the best compo-
sition, which often leads them to make the most ridiculous
propositions. He thought they relied in that house too much
on statistics. He was much averse to them, for they were
will-o'-the-wisps flitting about a question to deceive. He con-
sidered the best thing the house could do was to extend the
present system, which must be considered au advance in na-
tional education. The system was no doubt started too high,
but that defect had been seen, and was now being remedied.
He hoped the house would not grant the commission without
a division, and in the event of its being granted they should
be instructed to examine into the middle-class schools. (Hear,
bear.) Ho thought there it would be found to be a mass of
endowments belonging to them misapplied, and he instanced
the case of a person receiving 1001. to 200/, with a pupil.
(Hear.)
Mr. COWPER said he had no wish to impede the spread
of information, or to stand in the way of procuring all the in-
formation possible ; but there was something in the terms of
the motion that made it difficult to accede to it. An inquiry
into the half-time system, and many other branches, was very
desirable : but he did not think the inspectors could be em-
ployed in obtaining the required information, for there were
no superabundant inspectors, but, in fact, they were over-
worked. The schools under inspection were fairly represented
in the reports before Parliament; but there was no means of
giving the information required relative to middle-class
schools. The present system was sufficient for its objects,
and he thought it was not desirable to enter into a
consideration of any others, as the terms of the motion
implied. It was a system that lied grown and entwined itself
into the habits, feelings, and dispositions of the people, and
whatever its defects it was well fitted for the English people.
By the terms of this motion the commission would be bound
to hear all parties who wished to give evidence in favour of
the German system or other continental systems, as well as on
special denominational and secular systems. (Hear.) It was
not t eat the house wanted to inquire into, but how the pre-
sent system could be more extended and more used, an object
which he thought the motion would fail to accomplish. Could
the terms of the resolution be confined to that, much of the
objection to it would be removed, because he thought, how-
ever expensive the commission might be, the house would not
refuse to grant the necessary feuds on a subject of to much
magnitude and vital interest to the nation. (Hear, hear.)
Much valuable information might be obtained from various
societies, but the only complete information as regarded the
numbers, dm. at school, could only be got by a census, for
which they had only threa years to wait. One of the greatest
evils was the early age at which children left school, their
irregular attendance, and the indifference of parents to con-
tinue their children at school, but he believed we were not
worse in that respect than France. The demand for child
labour was so pressing and urgent that he despaired of being
able to produce a measure by which the children of working
classes might be kept to school, except of a compulsory cha-
racter, which in all probability that house would not sanction.
(Hear, hear.) The education of the working classes ought not
to finish with elementary schools. They were useful in lay-
ing the foundation of au education that should be continued
in after years by attending night schools. The Privy Coun-
cil was giving assistance in that manner, and it had met
with considerable success, e,pecially in Loudon. Two con-
ditions, however, were necessary to bo observed—viz., care.
ful classification of students, and instruction such as those
frequenting the schools desired. That was being
followed with success at King's College, where
the students selected their topics of education, and it was
remarkable that those least expected were chosen, such as
French and Latin. (Hear.) With regard to school accom-
modation they had more than was made use of. They had
school accommodation for 870,000, but there were only
570,000 children attending the schools. The Privy Council
felt that the progress of education was consistent with the
permanent grants made by that house, By the returns made
-to the National Society, it appeared that though the schools
diminished, the scholars increased, showing that the schools
kept by inefficient persons were giving way to larger and bet-
ter conducted ewes He defended the house from the ch ergo
of indifference to the subject made by the right hon. baronet,
and said that ho thought there was less indifference on the
part of the religious bodies and the Government than amongst
the great bulk of the holders of property and the middle
classes, He was opposed to the imposition of a rate as likely
to retard rather than advance edueation. He suggested that
the rightlhon, baronet should amend his resolutiou so as to
omit the part with reference to considering a change of the
present system.
Mr. HENLEY said ho concurred in the remark of the right
hon. gentleman, and regretted that a similar appeal he had
made to the right hon. baronet had been unsuccessful.
Another point was this. They all knew that in this metro-
polis there were a vast number of children who neither went
to school nor to work, and these were the children to whom
attention ought in the first instance to be directed. Those
who went to school at all were of course iu a much happier
situation than those who never wont to school at all. Now,
what was the likeliest mode of getting at those children? He
believed that a commission was not tho right method, but
that humbler methods should be adopted. It was very diffi-
cult toget behind the scenes in those cases, and almost impos-
sible to get at the seasons why their parents did not avail
themselves of the advantages offered to them. He thought
that those zealous men-who were employed by the home mis.
sionary societies would be more likely to achieve that object
than any commissioners, however able they might be.
He should be very glad if his right honourable friend (Sir J.
Pakington) could agree with the Government in a schema.
for he believed that a mere general scheme must result in
mere secular teaching. It had been so in America, and it
would be so here. He could not help seeing many things
going on which should snake the friends of religious educe-
tion very cautious. Ho did not mean that doctrinal teach.
ing should bo given at mere specified homes. If the friends or
religious education allowed themselves to be driven into t te
corner they would give up their case. The master should be
an intelligentoarnest man, who would take every o tportunity
of turning his teaching to advantage. If children lied or
stole, as children would do, he should tell them that those
vices were contrary to the commands of God, and if they
wore ill-natured, he should remind them that they should be
kindly-affectioned ono to another, for that was the command
of Christ. If a man was directed to teach no religion, ko
would toll a child who stole that ho must steal no more for
fear of the big policeman, and that would be the basis of his
morality. (Near.) These were reasons why he was afraid
of any of these general schemes, and why he would rathar
deem op those systems which were in force, and which were
tending to great good. He hoped the right hon.. baronet
(Sir J. Pakington) would consent to limit his se:eeme in the
way the-right hon. gentlemen (Mr. Cowper had suggested.
Lord J. RUSSELL had hoped that the way in which the
right honourable baronet had introduced his asthma would
have secured for it general consent. He would remark that
the opposition was a renewal of the opposition that had been
offered to every proposal for extending education. When
Lord Brougham propounded his scheme every possible objec-
tion was made to it, and it was alleged that his intention was
to rob children of all religious instruction. When he (Lord J.
Russell) and the Marquis of Lansdowne proposed a scheme se-
curing grants from the Committee of Privy Council, strong
opposition was offered to it, and they were only enabled to
carry it by a majority of two. (Hear.) But he now found an
honourable gentleman on the opposite side, who spoke at the
beginning of the present debate, acknowledging how good
these minutes of council were, and urging that it was the
duly of Conservatives not to disturb them, (Hear.) It was
the lot of many who made these attempts to advance educa-_
tion to be violently opposed, and to find soon after that the
schemes they bad successfully ostabliseecl had become part of
the institutions of the country, and all parties urged that it
was the duty of Parliament to adhere to what had worke 1
so efficiently, (Hear.) Then again the minutes of 1846 met
with very groat apposition throughout the country, and a
vast number of petitions wore presented opine them. Tho
last change that was made, was made by himself and the
right hon. gentleman the member fir the University of Ox-
ford (Mr. Gladstone) who was then Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, sanctioning capitation grants. That was opposed,
not so much on account of a dislike to the principle as because
the scheme was not carried to the extent necessary to pro.
mote the cause of edneation. Ho might remark, as the
foundation of the motion of the right hon, baronet, that the
hon, member for Staffordshire had entirely mistaken the
present system. The hon. gentlema', seemed to think that
inspectors were persons who inspected the whole education
of the country, and that they had only to be gagged to make
them report on the sta'o of education all over Euglancl. Now
the inspectors could make no such inquiry. What the com-
mittee of council had to do was, to assist in the erection and
afterwards in the maintenance of schools where persons were
willing to contribute; but sepposing there were thirty or
forty villages lying together where no applieatioa was made,
those inspectors must remain in entire ignorance of that part
of the country, and could give no detailed report. To this
might bo added, that the whole time of the inspectors was
employed in visiting the schools they were desired to
report upon, and ascertaining what was the amount
of education over which they had superintendence.
There were about 570,000 children who were re-
ceiving education in this way. £hey were told by
Mr. Horace Mann, in his last roport, that there were only
570,000 out of the two millions to whom his reports refer who
were receiving instruction, and, besides these, Mr. Mann re-
ported that there were one million who were at work, and
who did not go to school at all. He made allowance for other
chil hen who were out pocket-picking and thieving, and who
could not be expected to attend school while thus engaged,
(Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Henley) bad
said that children would lie and steal, and that they should
be taught not to steal, because such practices were contrary
to the law of God. He quite agreed with the right non. gen-
tleman ; but why, if that was to be taught in school, should
not other children who were running about the streets and
did not go to school—why were they not to he taught the
same lesson ? (Hear.) If goutlemen denied that it was of
no advantage-to impart a moral and secular instruction, there
was an end of the whole case. There were four or five uillions
of these -children, and the present system extended to
570,000. It was proposed to assist by grants the means of
those who were willing to build schools, but they could hardly
find suit& nt means for that purpose. It was hoped that the
establishment of these schools would lead by example to the
establishment of other schools, and that thus the system
would spread. It was very much in the nature of an experi-
ment, and it was to be seen whether that extension of educa-
tion took place rapidly and generally, or whether it was a
slow process, The system had now been in operation 18
years, and though he must say it had been very successful
with regard to those who wore actually under education, it
had not spread so rapidly or so extensively as could have been
wished. Let him ask hem what was to be done. They were
not making any great progress, for if any one would look to
the increase of the grants, it would be found that that 70,000
which had been added to the 500,000, received in proportion
a far larger amount of grants than the latter number. He
'could see many ways in which education might be bene-
ficially extended. He believed that in many cases the clergy
and ministers of various dissenting sects would be willing to
ask their congregations to contribute to a certain extent, not
complying with all the conditions of the Committee of Privy
Council, but_ still making better schools than at present
existed. Would not that be advantageous ? (Hear, hear.)
They were improving the quality of educat'en, but they must
not lose sight of the quantity, and in places were no progress
had been made might they not inquire whether by grants
they might get extend the present system ? He had heard
many men of practical knowledge urge this point, ono of
them a bishop, That right reverend prelate pointed out to
him there were whole districts in his diocese where there wore
no schools of any value whatever, and he bad heard others
say, who had great practical experience, that when iu these
parishes there were well- conducted schools, the grants of the
Committee of. Privy Council were sufficient ; but that they
might go for milo around aucl not find a tylcral* fichoQL