The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 2, 1858.

dent belief that the Emperor is now as firmly resolved as
he ever has been—as firmly resolved as her Majesty's Go
vernment certainly are—to maintain, to support, and to
strengthen that alliance which is invaluableto both coun-
tries; and if that alliance has been preserved and that
cordial feeling restored after the temporary cloud which
recent events cast upon them, although we may perhaps
claim some credit for the course we have pursued in this
country, the praise, I repeat, is mainly due to the sound
judgment, the loyalty, and the good faith of that distin-
guished man the Emperor of the French. Now, my
lords, passing from the language which the Chancellor
of the Exchequer is said to have inappropriately used
with respect to the state of our relations with France
when the Government came into office, my noble friend
opposite proceeded to the next passage of the Bucking.•
hamshire speech, viz,, that in which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer took credit to himself and to his colleagues,
not, I think, unduly or unjustly, for the course they
pursued with regard to the British engineers of the Cag-
liari. The noble earl has stated most truly that my noble
friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is en-
titled to every credit for the course he pursued and the
means he used, and used successfully, for the purpose of
procuring the liberation of these two men ; and the noble
earl has said with great candour that, although unfer-
twastely the Government with which he was connected
were quite in ignorance of the real position of the case
until it was too late to interfere with sufficient effect,
yet they did what they could to procure some mitigation
of the sufferings endured by our fellow-countrymen.
Now, I do not deny that the noble earl during the pe-
riod he held the seals of the Foreign Department did
make various representations, and did toa certain extent
obtain from the Neapolitan Government a mitigation of
the severer portion of that punishment to which inno-
cent and unconvicted men had been condemned, viz., a
long and painful imprisonment. But, my lords, I must
be permitted to say that the state of ignorance to which
thenoble earlrefere as his excuse for not having done more
did not exist later, accerding to his own statement,
than the month of December, whereas it was not till
February that the change of Government took place.
During the last days of the administration of the Foreign
Department by the noble earl he undoubtedly requested
of the Neapolitan Government that one of the engineers,
whose mind had given way under the severity of the
punishment to which he had been exposed, should, in
consequence of the state of his intellect, be withdrawn
from the rigorous captivity to which he had been sub-
jected, and should be transferred to the British Hospital
at Naples', where the British Consul was himself to be
security for his production, whenever required, and where
the noble earl suggested the Neapolitan Government
might place a guard to prevent the possibility of his
escape. That is the position in which, upon succeeding to
the administration of affairs, we found these two unfor-
tunate individuals—(bear, hear)—one of them still in
prison and still subject to all the hardships of prison life,
and the other, whose reason had given way under the
severity of his sufferings, withdrawn from prison and
placed in an hospital under a guard, or at least the noble
earl having suggested that he should be placed under a
guard to prevent the possibility of his escape, the British
Consul giving personal security for his appearing to un-
dergo hie trial when his mind should be restored. (Hear.)
Now, my lords, in another place—if I may follow the
noble earl in a very slight degree in the irregularity
which he has committed—a very different line of defence
ha, been adopted. The noble viscount lately at the head
of the Government ventured, if I am not misheformed,
upon the statement that the liberation, if not of both, at
least of one of those engineers was due, not to her Ma-
jesty's present Government, but to the efforts and remon-
strances of her Majesty's late Government. That is a
statement made, not by the noble lord opposite—he has
made a very different statement—but by the noble
viscount who was at the head of the late Government.
The Earl of CLARENDON—My noble friend the
member for Tiverton never said that both the engineers
were liberated in consequence of the remonstrances of
the late Government.
The Earl of DERBY—I said one, if not both ; but this
shows upon a small scale the inconvenience of these
irregular references to what persons have said, or are
supposed to have said, in the other House of Pa-liament.
Now, my lords, the noble viscount lately at the head of
the Government is a person of very advanced age, very
vigorous for his age, vigorous beyond the ordinary race
of mortals—(e laugh)—but the first sign of advancing
age is generally a slight failure of memory, and to that
growing infirmity, I think, is to be attributed the as-
tounding statement that the members of the late G.).
vernment, and not those of the present, are the persons
to whom one at least of these engineers is indebted for
his liberation from a Neapolitan prison. (Hear.) As
that statement has been made, let me remind your lord-
ships of the facts. It was on the 15th Feb. that the
noble earl opposite preferred the request to which I Lave
already referred—viz., that one of the engineers, whose
mind h d given way—there was nothing said of the other
-should be transferred from a prison to an hospital,
there to be kept tinder a guard, the British consul giv-
ing personal security for his attendance whenever be
might be called upon to undergo his trial. That was
one of the last acts of the Administration of the noble
earl. When the present Government came into office,
my noble friend the S cretary of State for Foreign Affa, re
lost no time in despatching Mr. Lyons to Naples, not
that he undervalued in the slightest degree the energy,
the activity, and the ability which bad been shown pre-
viously by the acting consul, Mr. Barbar, but because
be naturally thought that a person filling an important
diplomatic situation, though not at Naples, would pro-
bably have more influence with the Neapolitan Govern-
ment. Well, my lords, it was not until the 18th March
that Signor Carafa, in consequence of strong repre-enta•
thins made by Mr. Lyons on the 16;,h, catainunicated
the intelligence that the King of Naples, out of defe-
Irence, as he stated, to the British Government, was
willing to permit the unconditional return of the engi-
neer Watt, on account of the state of his health, to this
country instead of being kept in Naples; and shortly
afterwards, from the same alleged motive—deference to
the British Government—a similar indulgence was
granted to the other captive, whose health, though not
his mind, had also given way under the severity of his
suffering'. (Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's present Go-
vernment had thus the happiness of seeing restored—l
shall not say to health—but to their country and their
friends, these unfortunate men, although during the
whole period ( f the administration of the Foreign De-
partment. by the noble earl opposite no steps had been
taken fo the purpose, at all events, of procuring or
promoting their liberation. (Cheers.) These, my lords,
are the facts of the case, and again I say, without refer-
ring to the precise terms, which were perhaps a little in-
flated, used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in de-
scribing the effects produced, that I think my right hon.
friend was fully jxetified in claiming for himself and his
colleagues the credit of having effected the restoration to
their families and friends of these two unfortunate men,
after their long and cruel captivity in a Neapolitan pri-
son. (Cheers.) Now, my lords, the noble earl opposite,
not satisfied with the contrast which we are entitled to
draw between the course pursued by the present Go.
vernment and that adopted by her Majesty's late ad-
visers, has the confidence to go a step further and to say
that Mr. Disraeli ought at all events to have been en-
abled to state that these persons had obtained an uncon-
ditional tolease, and that the indemnity which he admits
we have very properly asked on their behalf has been
conceded by the Government of Naples. The question of
indemnity is one which, as my noble friend well knows,
is under discussion between this country and Naples.
We have made a claim and mean to support it. With
regard to the other question, my noble friend (Lord
Malenesbury) has been able to inform the noble earl op-
posite that the release of the engineers has been absolute,
enure, and unconditional. My lords, I said-I would not
comment upon every particular expression attributed to
my right hon. friend, nor defend any language which
might appear exaggerated. I do. not think, if speeches
made en occasions like this are to be brought under co-
ricus discussion in both houses of Parliament, and are to
be made the subjects of motions or of debates equivalent
to motions for two nights longer in one house, and fur a
considerable space of time on another night in the
other house—l do not think that her Majesty's late G. 1.•
vernment are those who ought minutely to criticise par-
ticular forms of expression, or to complain of any little
indiscretion of language or of sentiment which may have
been committed even by a Minister of the Crown in a
postprandial speech upon a festive occasion. (Cheers.) I
coul i paint to one or two instances—one more remote
and the other not very dis'ant—in which language has
been held which, if subjected to the test of severs criti-
cism and Parliamentary investigation, and if the speeches
in which it Occurred had been treated as State papers, as
that of my right hon. friend has been by my noble friend
opposite, would have been feund not to be such as was
best calculated to secure and maintain perfect harmony
between this and other countries. (Hear.) My noble
friend opposite has cleverly and ingeniously coloured
some portions of the speech of my noble friend. I cer-
atapinalsysisalegoanilidasniaoat
_hafrvaemexwpehcitcehd i
thimwastoimmpaaksesimblooretothan
re-
frain—to that gradually dissolving view—to the bursting
of that great bubble—to that breaking up of the ice of the
Neva, which took place with sudden violence, a'trr
various cracks and groans and indications of what war;
g place—the graduel withdrawal, one by
one, ofsintgalee
cards from that carefully constructed edi-
fice of pasteboard, until at last that which it had emit
s one persons so much pains to build up collapsed in a
single moment, came to nothing, and fell to the groun 1,
to the utter and irretrievable confusion of its authxi. A
laugh.) I did not expect the noble earl to comment on
that part of ray right hon. friend's speech. I do not
know whether he read it with so much amusement as I
did ; but greater than my amusement was my conviction
of its truthfulness. I felt eminently convinced the.,
great as was the wit, great as was the cleverness, great
as was the humour of that most graphic description,
that which most peculiarly appertained to it was un-
deniable truth. (Hear, hear, hen-.) There was no ix.
sggeration even of colouring, for no exaggeration coule
be app fed to that matchless some at s diiuh —I 'hail
r:naeml er it to the list day ( f my I fe—l had the go, d
fortto eto be present. But, my lords, there was 00,
-part of the speech of n.y right hon. friend t. which, tsr
he was making a running comment, taking down its uro
due pretensions and rebuking its boastful language, toe
nob'e earl opposite might have referred. Why did I- e
riot say something on tie subject of fiance ? fifer'
were threelopics to which try right hoe. friend sec al'y
referred, and with which be eumm,d up his sin se. .
These were foreign affairs, the position 111 winch e e
found them, and that in which we stand no e• ; the
finances of tie country, the position in which we found
teem, and that which they now occupy ; and the policy
which her Majesty's Government have recommended for
India These were the three topics upon which try
right hon. friend in his cehebrated speech at Slough took
credit to the Government. Upon two of them my noble
friend opposite has ventured to join issue ; upon tie
third
zyt r,
al hge eha
tthi
boa
on
, b, .
a es
fe
rani
ne
nediscreetlyda f
tah:d o ef o
e ma
rnci
tdsu
wtr Os
ietiacb)
hlyy
sns.
oei l
tr de
en cti
si
pa
ium Ht i
eng
eddi i,
ityd
lie admits the validity of the claim—those financial ar-

.~,

rangements to which in a position of great and antici.
pated difficulty we have had the rare merit of obtaining
universal, or almost universal, assent. My noble friend
will certainly recollect that the late Government were
about to enter upon the discussion of the budget with no
very sanguine anticipations as to the resources of the
country, or as to the view which might be taken of the
measures which they intended to submit to Parliament.
If I am correctly informed, no mode of rectifying the
disorder of the finances occurred to them better than
that which would not have been a very popular measure
—a considerable increase of the hie:me-tax. The late
Government, and—if there are such persons as the
members of a cabal—the cabal, or those who, in the
house or out of the house, Euglishmen or foreigners,
were looking forward to the destruction of the present
Ministry immediately on its formation, anticipated
that the budget would be the inevitable destruction of
this incompetent Government. (Hear, hear.) It was
said, " They have succeeded by an accident in ousting
the late Government and getting into place for a mo-
ment, but it is only for 48 hours." (Cheers.) That was
the language held, " Don't be alarmed, this is nothing
serious, it is but an affair of 48 hours." Eight and forty
hears elapsed, and then it wag, " You will see that
the whole thing will fall to the ground, and then will be
that glorious and much longed for restoration" which is
the main object of noble lords opposite. (A laugh.)
Weeks elapsed and there was no indication of the desired
consummation, and then it was said, " But there is the
budget, they never can get over that. We know the
state in which the finances were when we left office.
(Renewed laughter.) We are very well out of it, leaving
our successors to deal with the budget, which we know,
that we should have found an insurmountable difficulty.'
We did deal with the budget, and dealt with it in such a
manner that, without violating public faith, carrying on
the promised reduction of that most obnoxious income-
tax,--which the late Government had intended to main-
tain, if not to increase,—we, by the addition of tars,
not large in amount, not very important, arid to whiele
few persons took any objection, made such an arrange-
ment as to secure for ourselves a fair surplus for the
year. (Hear, hear.) My lords, may Igo a little
further ? May I take the liberty of mentioning an-
other transaction which has not come under public
notice ? I refer to the issue of Exchequer-bills. The
Exchequer bills t.f last year bore interest at 24d. per
diem. 14,000,000/. of bills had to be reissued during
the present year, and they have been placed at such
a reduced rate of interest as, upon a sum of 517,000/.
paid for interest, amounts to a saving of not less than
214,0001, or two-fifths of the whole amount. (Hear,
hear.) I cannot say how much of that reduction is to
be ascribed to the possibility of raising money on more
advantage,us terms than last year ; but it is either to
the good management or to the good fortune of my
right hon. friend that it is to be ascribed that the coun-
try has enjoyed the advantage of this great saving.
(Hear, hear.) The last topic into which I shall follow
my noble friend, becausel will not deal with personal
matters—l will not deal with those questions if in-
trigues and cabals, whether foreign or domestic—l will
not deal with those questions of the means, more or less
unscrupulous, which have been resorted to for the pur-
pose of opposing and placing obstacles in the way of the
existing Government without areasonable hope of form-
ing a Ministry to replace it ;—I will proceed to a mat
ter, in adverting to which, I think, the noble earl oppo-
cite has done grievous injustice to the intention and
even to the plain language of my right hon, friend, by
supposing that the reference to India was meant as an
ungenerous and ungentlemanlike attack upon the cha-
racter, the conduct, and the policy of Lord Canning.
What was the language used by my right hon. friend ?
He did not say that we bad reconstructed our Indian
empire, as he was represented by toy noble friend to
have said. What he did say was that we had laid
down a policy for India which we believed would be
the means of reconstructing its social condition, and
that that was a policy of considerate and discriminatiN
amnesty is preference to one of confiscation, of violence,
and of massacre. Now, Ido not believe that my right
hon. friend intended to convey, nor do I think that he
can be taken to have conveyed, the charge against Lord
Canning that he was in favour of a policy of undiscri-
minating violence and massacre. (Hear.) Lord Canning
did undoubtedly, by the proclamation of which so
much has been said in this country, give colour to
the opinion that it was his intention to adopt a principle
of very t xtensive confiscation ; but a principle of violence,
a principle of massacre, never, I am sure, entered the
mind of my noble friend the noble viscount at the head
of the Government of India, and was never imputed to
him by my right hon. friend. But it is notorious to every
one that the atrocities which were committed in the
earlier period of what I may now call the late revolt in
India had excited in the minds of people in this country,
had excited in the minds of civilians and of military
men in India, a fierceness and a desire for savage ven-
geance, which Lord Canning was the first to deprecate
—(hear)—and which it appeared to her Majesty's Go-
vernment to be moat impertai.t to put down ; and, not
the period when we were remonstrating against the
course which Lcrd Canning was, by his proclamation,
apparently about to pursue, but one month before, and
immediately upon our accession to office, we impressed
upon the Governor General, not for his own guidance,
but to a-sure him of our support, that we recommended
a principle of generous forbearance, of leniency, and of
discriminating amnesty in preference to that principle
of universal vicleec i and general massacre which we
knew was too much pressed upon him by many of those,
both military men and civilians, by whom be was sur-
roended. (Hear.) My lords, I say this, that when my
right hon. friend was speaking of. the course which the
Government had pursued, or intended to pursue ; when
he was vindicating our conduct before his assembled c,n-

. stituents; when Le was taking credit for those things
, for which be thought the Government could fairly
claim praise, there was no subject upon which be
might more coefiJently appeal to the general good feel-
ing, to the sound sense, and to the deliberate
convictions of the people of this c untry in favour, of
our policy than when he said we had laid
down as the rule for the government of India discrimi-
native amnesty in contradistinction to universal c ,nfis-
cation, massacre, and violence. (Hear.) And if my
noble friend quarrels with the expression that that policy,
so declared, had obtained the approval of England and
the admiration of Europe, " the admiration of Europe"
might perhaps have been a theoretical addition to that
which I believe to be the simple and naked truth. That
policy has at all events obtained the unqualified ap-
proval of the people of England ; and it is a remarkable
circumstance that in the whole course of the discussions
on 'this question in this and the other House of Fa lia-
ment, while many persons have blamed, and many more
have regretted, the publication of the private despatch
to Lord Canning, their is no human being in this or the
other House of Parliament who has ventured to stand
up in his place and, as against the principles and docti ioes
laid down in that desparcb, to maintain and uphold the
doctrines and principles apparently•laid down in the pro-
clamation of Lord Canning. (Cheers.) Even the friends
of Lord Canning in this house have stated distinct!),
that if such were the meaning to be attached to the 'pro-
clamation no terms would be too strong to use in con-
demnathn of it ; and in the other house no human being
has risen for the purpose of defending the proclamation
itself in the plain, natural sense which, in the absence of
any explenation, it necessarily bore in the minds of her
Majesty's Government. (Cheers.) Well, then the noble
earl adverts to the censure which has been passed in
Europe with regard to the transactions relating to the
Kingdocn of Oude. My lords you are quite aware
that the language used on that subject was used
in a despatch which was intended to meet the eye
of the Governor-General alone, and that all the
circumstances there stated were so stated hr
the purpose of showing to Lord Canning, the
broad line or distittc:ion which ought to be drawn
between those misguidel followers of the deposed
King of Oude and the rest of the population. My lords,
I cannot but regret that my noble friend opposite should,
in the exercise of his discretion, have again referred to
and given additional publicity to statements and to
arguments used in a very different sense, and that he
has used them in a manner which I feel will much aggra-
vate the danger of tniscon,truction put upon the private
despatch. I can emphatically say, except with regard
to the policy of confiscation, which we disapprove, and
except as violence and massacre might, though not in-
; tentionAlly, be the consequence of a protracted resistance
arising out of that confiscation on the part of persons
driven to despair, it was not the intention of my right
hon. friend, and I and sure it is not the intention of bur
Majesty's Government, in the slightest degree to impute
to-Lord Canning or to east in his teeth that revengful,
barbarous, and bloodthirsty spirit which on the con-
trary, he has been the first to reprobate, but which it was
absolute'y necessary, if we wished to give Lord Canning
a real support, should take the earliest opportunity of dim-
couraging. (Cheere.) I thiak I have gone through all the
topics contained in the statement of my noble friend to
which it is necrusary or becoming in me to refer. I
must say that, although I have not shrunk from explain•
ing and vindicating the statements made and the lan-
guage held by my right hon. friend, not in every parti-
cular term, but in substance and fact, and although
I do not deny that the language of public men holdine
high office is to be resorts carefu ly and closely watched
and criticised than the language of those hold-
ing less responsible appointments, yet I do think that
although the language used and the opinions ex-
pressed by my right hon. friend night have coiled forth
some casual criticism, and a passing notice }rim those
who disapproved them, a great deal more has been made
of this speech than is consistent with the dignil of
.ither r f the house., or with the importance of the ques-
tines to which it refers. (Cheers ) ' I have not, how-
ever, shrunk from vindicating an absent friend, and 1
think my noble friend might have done well to recollect
that that hon. gentleman on two successive evenings has
beer, attacked ou the same subject in his place in Par
liament, %here he had a right to speak, and that he ha:;
there given to hie opponent, first one and tin. n the
other, such an exp!ar.ation and such art answer a- neither
they nor the country will speedily forget. (Loud cheers.)
E It 1 G RA. ..:4 VILLE—The noble earl in a solemn tone

and macner has expressed I is surprise that my nobld
friend (he Earl of Clarendon) ahead have exhibited
such an amount of indscretion as'to rake up old events
which had touch better be for; otters, But, I ask, was
it my noble flieo's fault that he raked up those ever to
which the fader of the Government in the other Home
of Parliament made the grounds of a speech delivered at
'a meeting of his constiter•nts, in the presence of highly
killed reporters, and replete with foolish charges against
my noble friend and all those connected with the late
Government ? (Cheers) I contend that my noble friend
had no other course to pursue than to give a-aimple nar-
rative of face, and to show where the truth lay. (Hear.)
I think,my noble friend was more thin jUstified
course be has taken, and that it would have been kde-
reliction. of his duty to this house and the public jibe

had neglected to take that course. (Hear.) The noble
earl has gone over many parts of the Slough speech
which were not alluded to by my noble friend. He has
adverted, among other things, to Mr. Disraeli's amusing
description of the scene in the other House of Parliament
on the conclusion of the Indian debate on the night of
Monday week. I can assure the noble earl that on reading
that part of the r:ght hon. gentleman's speech, I was as
highly entertained as he appears to have been. I was
then traveling in a railway carriage, and I handed
the paper containing the report to ono of the noble
lord's suppertere, and peinting his attention to that
part of the speech, I remarked that it was one of the
most amusing fictions that I had ever read in my life.
(A. laugh.) But the noble earl stated that he was par-
ticularly delighted with the truth of that description.
(Hear, bear.) Now, it did not strike me in that way,
and I certainly don't think the public who read the
speech, and the explanation of it given by the right
hon. gentleman hi.nself, will take the Fame view of its
truth as the noble earl has done. (A laugh.) Mr.
Disraeli in hia speech at Slough indulged in a feeling of
self-glorification as to his financial measures ; but I
think if there is one point more than another on which
that speech may be challenged, it is that very part of it.
(Cheers.) One would have thought on reading his speech
that the late Government had reduced the country to
irretrievable ruin and that the present goverfiment had
stepped in and Fet everything to rights. (A. laugh.)
But how have they done this ? Why on the very simple
principle of not muddling away their money in paying
their debts (laughter), and postponing to a future oc-
casion those liabilities which it would have been more
stet ;manlike to meet in a more bold and direct manner.
(Cheers.) The noble earl also claimed credit for a re-
duction of the rate of interest on Exchequetebills, but
he might as well have taken credit for the glorious sun
which has shone this day (a laugh), for that reduction
of interest is owing to the improved state of the country,
and one government is no more entitled to boast of it
than another. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend first
asked this question of the noble earl, whether he would
subscribe to the statement of Mr. Disraeli, that the
question of a war between this country and France was
one not of days but of hours on the accession of the pre-
sent government. The noble earl endeavoured to meet
that question with the very greatest difficulty. He was
determined not to abandon the defence of an absent friend,
yet that is a question which he more or lees evaded.
The noble earl says he is jus'ified in saying so, because
the late Government brought the whole matter into con-
fusion by not carrying the bill with which they had
tantalised the French Government, and thus created the
difficulty of the position. But whose fault was it that
we did not carry the bill ? (Hear.) The noble earl raid
that Mr. Disraeli guarded himself in the approval which
he gave of the bill in the first instance, but what did The
Chancellor of Ireland ? What did Mr. Walpole ? They
fellowed the same sours° as the noble earl had done in
indicating and urging upon the Government the very bill,
and more than the bill, which we afterwards introduced,
and which was thrown out upon a similar motion to one
they had previously opposed—l will not say in conse-
quence ot, but in strange coincidence with the fact that
a large number of Liberals voted against the bill, and
that a junction with those Liberals would be the means
of putting the then Government in a minority. The noble
eeil talked of " tentalising " the French Government.
Now, I think that although credit is due to the late Go-
vernment for the manner in which they conducted all
affaire, yet special credit is due to them for their manage-
ment of foreign affairs, and for their forbearance from
raising questions that might endanger our relations with
foreign Powers. Now the q.uestion is at rest, but I way
ask the noble earl, who talks of tantalising the French
Government, what has become of the bill which he said
would depend upon the answer which Count Walewski
might return to the Government despatch,
Tee Earl of DERBY—I said nothing of the sort. I
said that when we received the answer it would be time
enough to decide upon the course we should pursue.
Earl GR C—Well, surely that comes to the
same thing. (A. laugh.) Another question asked by my
noble friend was as to the explanation of a most serious
accusation brought against some individuals of having
formed a cabel with some foreigners with a view to up-
setting the Queen's Government. To that question the
noble earl has given ❑o answer—no hypothesis presented
itself to him, and he declared he would not enter
into it. I, therefore, have a right to believe that either
the noble earl does not understand what his colleague
has stated, or, understanding it, he entirely repudiates
the charge as false and unfounded. (Hear.) The next
question touched upon by the noble earl was India, and
upon that subject there is but one point to which I would

refer. The noble earl says that no one in either house,
whether a friend of Lord Canning or not, has dared to
rise and defend the proclamation. Now, I deny that to
be the fact. ([fear, hear.) I say there are those who
are convinced the proclamation was perfectly right, but
who have said they could not defend that mit representa-
tion cf the proclamation which was put forth by those
who attacked Lord Canning. lam prepared to abide
by that declaration. (Hear, hear.) As to the whole
ea-ic of India lam happy to say that Lord Canning's
characterstands too high to be affected by any post-pran-
dial speech uttered in a tavern at Slough. The provider
of the entertainment, as I sea by the papers, was mine
host "Braga." (Loud laughter.) I say no such
speech can affect the high position of Lord Canning. I
have heard the noble earl declare his intention of sup-
porting Lord Canning, and I place the fullest confidence
in that declaration, and if supported by the Government
of the present day, and by the public opinion of the
country, I believe Lord Canning will require no defence
from speeches such as that we have been considering.
(Hear, hear.) Ido not know that there was anything
further that fell from the noble earl which requires
lengthened comment from me, but I must express my
thanks to my noble friend who, by his temperate, mode-
rate, and conclusive speech hiss aff)rded us an opportu-
nity not only of demolishing the statements made at the
famous Slough dinner, but also of enlightening the pub-
lic upon a Riirit upon which serious misconceptions had
existed. (Cheers-)

The Earl of MALMESBURY—There are only one
or two points, chiefly relating to our foreign affairs,
upon which I wish to touch, because I think the noble
earl (Clarendon) has incorrectly stated the facts relating
to them. It appears to me somewhat absurd that we
should have criticisms upon a speech delivered at a pub-
lic dinner—upon a speech which the noble earl did not
hear, but an explanation of which he asks from my noble
friend, who also did not hoar it. When explanations
were asked in the other house, it was only reasonable
and fair, because the person who uttered the speech was
present in that house, and could steak for himself ; but
to ask those who knew nothing of the speech to explain
its expressions is absurd. The noble earl has alluded to
one part of that speech, in which reference was made to
disrweernents which existed three mouths ago between
this Government and the Government of France. Now,
it was qui e correct to say the position of the two coun-
tries at that particular time was rrost critical—that we
were upon the verge of war, for when I saw the French
tang
gs
as ote of the gravest dan-
ger, I found that he re-
ag
am rbd sds at dh or,
r ,
position upont
,yf
and he never saw me without expressing his belief
in distinct terms that we bad arrived at a crisis of most
imminent danger.
Lord CLARENDON—If you lid not go on with the
bill.

The Earl of MALMESBUR 1"--The noble earl says
the danger would arise if we did not go on with tbs bill.
Let the country know that the noble earl who was de•
prived of office because the nation did not choose to sub-
mit to his bill—let them know tiat the noble earl is still
of the same mind, and if he were again in office he would
it vas no fiction on the part
reintrodw:e that hill. I say
of the Chancellor of the Ex6equer to say that the
moment he reArred t was a most dangerous crisis fur
the alliance between England and France. Another ob-
servation cf the noble earl was extraordinary and in-
correct. He stated that he beird and believed that the
French.ambassador had_cornolained of a breach if faith.

Lord CLARENDON—I &Aid no such thing; I said
it was the talk of the town.

The Earl rf LMESBURY—If the noble earl did
not believe it, why did he mention it ? This house does
not usually occupy itself in discussing rumours. But I
am glad to be able to declara that the rumour is not cor-
rect. ,It is only two days age that in a journal supposed
to be intimately cmnected with the late Premier it was
state• that it was in cansequence of a breach o; faith on
our part that Count Persigcy quitted this country. I
have no hesitation in saying that is:completely incorrect,
and M. de Perßig,ny would he the first to join me in the
declaration. It was nothicg done, said, or written by
this Government which named him to leave this country,

but some di agreement witi his principal in Paris. There
is only one other point open which I 'a isle to say a few
words, and that is the que:tion of the English engineers
at N,iples. In the speech cf the noble viscount in another
place be is reported to br.ve said, " As regards one of
those men, he had been set free and handed over to the
care of the British Consul before the change of Ministry
occurred ; but had lo,en re-,cued from the dungeons they
had pro7ioudy occ 'pied and placed in a comparatively
light place of courntrntrit before the present Govern-
client came into office." Nos,my lords,
these men being tried fir their lives, and we found both
as regards one
of these men I will read an extract from a coinmunica-
tion from Mr. Lyons, dated March 24 :—" Park has
this day been rehased from prison uponbail." Ode o!
th9in wad deprived of his reason, and the other broken
in heal h, but since we have been in (Zee they have both
been urconditionaliy liberated by
the Neapolitan Go
vernincrit. I suppose, my lords, we ought to be tx-
trainely thankful for the lesson on the neeessity of cul•
•
tivatiois: Lia!,its of pcblic discretion which we have tlis
evei.ing received; bat I would beg tho noble lord, at
whese hands we lime been f tvoured with so Ingch vod

advice, to hear in mind for the faturethe common maxim
which says that tho4a who live in crystal 'palaces should
not throw Ft A. laugh.) [A noble lord—" In glass
hou es."] My n01,1,3•1.n-rid may live in a gays house,
hut I aria pot (vitt sure that it may nut with more pro-
priety be sail of tie noble lord at the head of the late
(.43v,r,rne.it that he lives in a crysial palace, for he is
absolutely upon ail sides surrounded by glass. ([tear,
bear, and Ir,u,:lltk.r.) I recollect a tme, and that no very
distant peri,d, the nchle lord seemed completely
to have f,:rgotteti —I should perhars rather say despised
—those rubs of discretion which have tc-:ight been so

_ -
43Tophltio &Ily recommend fir the a,:iow ion of public men.
(Hear.) We me,tall remember ho .e that alliancP, upe n
the not 1e vi-count to whew I al!uile set so high a
value, was greatly imperilled by the indi,creet langua4e
wbLh he used, aud how some two yeer4 ago, at a Lord
Mayor's dii n• r, be made a speech whi. h called f,..r ex•
planation upon the part of the French Government.
(Hear, hear.) Fortunately for the noble lord the French
ambassador happened at the time to be absent in Paris.
and was not present at the dint er, for if he had been he
must have felt. it to he his duty to walk out of the room
•

(Cheery.) 'Fiero was also another occasion on which, if I
mistake not, tLe noble viscount showed an equal con•
tempt fur those' rules of discretion of which the noble

earl opposite is so earnest an a3vocate. Your lordehipe
have seen that address —worse than a speech, because it
was written—to the electors of Tiverton, in which so
much good taste and good feeling were displayed, and i❑
which the noble viscount thought proper to brand the
majority of the members of both Houses of Parliament
as men who were ready to make the disgrace of their
country a stepping stone to office. (Cheers.) Now, I
cannot help thinking that a noble earl who serves under
a leader who is accustomed to make use of Buell language
as that might very well have refrained from inflicting on
us that severe castigation which he has this evening ad-
ministered. (Cheers.) For my part I am of opinion that
nothing has been said by my right hon. friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer in the speech in question which
taken line by line or word by word, can either in tone
or taste, or in its tendency to produce grave public con-
sequences, be justly charged with being equally open to
reprehension as much which has fallen frem Lord Pal-
merston himself. (Cheers.)
__

Lord STANLEY of AL.DERLEY, referring to the
question which had been put by the noble earl who bad
just spoken as to whether her Majesty's late Go-
vernment would, if they were to return to office to-
morrow, proceed with the Conspiracy Bill, said he had
no hesitation in stating that they would proceed with
that measure, and quite as little hesitation in expressing
his opinion that they must, in persevering in that course,
receive the support of the noble earl at the head of the
Government, who had observed, after his accession to
office, that the proper time to deal with such a measure
was after a fitting answer had been returned to the de-
spatch of Count Walewski. He might also remind their
lordships that the present Secretary of State for the
Home Department had, in the discussion which bad
takes place upin the bill in the other house of Parlia-
ment, declared it to be Lis determination—the honour
of England having, as he deemed it to be necessary, been
in the first instance vindicated by means of an answer
to the despatch of the French Government—to give hie
cordial support to the bill before the house. (Hear.)
It was under those circumstances clear, be thought, that
the colleagues of the noble earl must aid in the passing of
a measure, of which he seemed to entertain so great a
horror, should it ever be introduced. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped, and their lordships ad-
journed at a quarter to 8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. —(YESTERDAY. )
The SPECAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a third time and passed
—Ayr and Dalmellington Railway ; Birkenhead Im-
provement Commissioners (Bondholders' Arrangements);
Cromford and High Peak Railway; East Kent Rail-
way (Dover Extension) ; Manchester Corpora'ion
Water; Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Rail-
way (Newton to Compstall) ; Newport, Abergavenny,
and Hera ,rd Railway ; and Tramore Ernb tukment.
MANCHESTER, SHEFFIELD, AND LINCOLN-
SHIRE AND GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY
BTL L.

Mr. SPOONER maved that the minutes of the pro-
ceedingi of the committee on the Manchester, Sheffield,
and Lincolnshire and Great Northern Railway Com-
panies Bill, in Group 8 of Railway and Canal Bills, be
printed, at the expense of the parties applying for the
same, and distributed with the votes ; that th© minutes
of the evidence taken before the said committee be laid
before this house. —Agreed to.
The South Devon and Tavistock Railway Bill was
further considered aad ordered to be read a third time.
CHURCH OF ENGLAND SPECIAL SERVICES
BILL.

Mr. DEEDES moved that the order of the day for
the second reading of the Church of England Special
Services 13111 be read, f,r the purpose of being dis-
charged. (Hear, hear.)—Agreed to.
Mr. DEEDES then moved that the bill be withdrawn.
—Agreed to.

Newgato every editor of o neecepep r who charged loon,
members with partiality they would soon not have a
prison large enough to hold them. (gear, and laughter.)
This was not an offence of sufficient gravity for Mr.
Vv likes to be sent to Newgate. It also partook
of the character of partizanship. (Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Gibson) bad lately been charged of partisanship in
supporting Lord Derby's Government—(hear, hear, and
laughter)—but he should not think r f calling an editor
of a newspaper fir 'such a charge. He had no objec-
tion to Mr. Wilkes being called to the bar of the house,
and asked if he retracted or not the whole of the article
in question.
Mr. BOUVERIE supported the amendment of the
Solicitor General.
Mr. ROEBUCK, whilst expressing his contempt for
anything the press might say of him, urged that the
gravity of the offence charged against Mr. Wilkes was
such that he ought not to be discharged without making
a full retractation of theScharges containedjin the article
in question.
Mr. GLADSTONE drew a distinction between cor-
rupt partisanship and partisanship. It was often their
pleasure to read attacks in the press on their partisan-
ship—(laughter)—which no doubt were open to actions
in a court of law, but hon. gentlemen, instead
of taking that course, were content to rest on
the general feeling of the people against such
attacks. He admitted it was necessary the press should
have great powers (but they ought to be guarded), in
order to protect the rights and liberties of the people,
and he cautioned the house how they proceeded in such
cases as this, where the charge of corrupt motives had
been withdrawn.
The Solicitor-General's amendment was carried, and
the matter stands over.
CAPTAIN PEEL
Admiral WALCOTT inquired whether the Admiralty
had received any official information in reference to the
melancholy death of Captain Peel ?
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that no information bad
been received beyond that which appeared in the news-
papers yesterday.
MILITARY DEPATMENTS.
Captain VIVIAN called the attention of the house to
the necessity of more clearly defining the responsibility
and duties of the various military departments, and
moved the following resolution :—"That, although the
recent consolidation of the different departments of Ord•
nance, Commissariat, and Secretary of War has, to a
certain extent, improved the general administration of
military affairs, a divided reap nsibility still exists ; and
tbat. in order to promote greater efficiency, the depart-
ments of the Horse Guards and War-office should be
placed under the control of one responsible minister."
General PEEL was of opinion that the existing sys-
tem was more calculated to prove beneficial to the army
than the plan recommended by his hon. and gallant
friend. At present the Horse Guards acted free alto-
gether from party bias, which could hardly be the case
with a minister who would have to retire on every
change of Government. He therefore opposed the motion.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST contended that the present
organisation of the army was not what it ought to be,
and advocated the necessity cf placing it on a similar
footing to that of the navy,
Mr. HORSMAN supported the motion.
Mr. B. JOHNSTONE also supported the motion, b
ing opposed to divided responsibility. It was said that
two heads were better than one, but in the case of the
army he preferred one head, for then they would know
on whom the responsibility would rest. At present he
was sent from the War-office to the Horse Guards, and
from the Horse Guards to the War-office, without being
able to find out which of those departments should have
given him the information he required.
Sir F. SMITH approved of the present arrangement,
for which the Minister of War was really responsible.
Mr. S. HERBERT was opposed to the motion, which
would in effect place the duties of the Commander-in-
Chief in the hands of a civilian. He did not think that
there was a divided responsibility at the present moment,
for the Secretary of State for War was responsible for
everything connected with the army.
Colonel NORTH also oppesed the motion.
Sir IV. CODRINGTON thought the present system
superior to any which had been suggested in the course
of the discussion.
Lord PALMERSTON opposed the motion, thinking
that the line of demarcation between the two offices was
sufficiently definite, and that to give the power to a civi-
lian would be des'ructive of the interests of the service.
The house then divided—
For the resolution lO6
Against it
Majority in favourof the resolution —2
The result was received with immense cheering on the
back benches on the Opposition aide of the house.
THT SUEZ CANAL.
Mr. ROEBUCK called the attention of the house to
the subject of the Suez Canal, and moved--"ThatJ in
the opinion of this house the power and influence of this
country ought not to be used in order to induce the Sul-
tan to withhold his assent to the project of making a
canal across the Isthmus of Suez." Thu hon. and learned
gentleman said his motion related only to a canal; but
involved in that question was nothing less -than the hon-
our of England. He contended that it was fur the inte-
reet of England more than of any other country that the
Suez Canal should be made, and that Lord Palmerston
was wrong in using the influence of this country to in-
duce the Sultan to withhold his sanction to the plan,
under the plea that the pr ject was that of a French
company., He believed that this policy had more to do in
we tkening the cordial feeling between this country and
France than any king else which had occurred likely to
cause Ee.trangement.
Mr. GRIFFITH moved, as an amendment, "That in
any course that this house may sanction in furtherance
of the construction of such a canal, it is expedient that
care be taken that the despotic powers of the Egyptian
Government be not allowed to he made use of by the
promoters of such project to obtain the required labour
from the 'faille' eat an inadequate remuneration, by
those compulsory means familiar t r the practice of that
Government, so as to produce the effects of slavery under
the guise of paid labour."
Lord HADDO thought the amendment was a very
uncourteous one to the ruler of Egypt, and should, there-
fore, not be adopted by the house.
Mr. STEPHENSON said that Mr. Roebuck had
dealt in generalities, not in facts. He did not believe
that the engineering difficulties could be overcome, and if
they could, he much doubted if the canal would be found
to be the shortest way to India, for it never could com-
pete with the railway.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD opposed the motion on poli-
tical grounds, in which the interests of this country were
deeply interested, for it was scarcely good policy to give
to other countries such facilities of reaching our East
Indian possession?.
Mr. M. GIBSON regretted that the present Govern.
ment had in this instance adopted the policy of Lott]
Palm: rston, and asked if Government would lay the
correspondence upon the subject between this country
and Turkey upon the table ?
Lord PALMERSTON said he did not mean to retire
finally. (A laugh.) Mr. Roebuck had complained that he
could not learn the reasons which had induced the Go-
vernment to oppose his scheme ; but those reasons had
been filly stated in the house. It was one of the greatest
bubbles that had ever been attempted to be imposed on the
credulity of this country. (Hear, hear.) Though it might
be made at a great sacrifice of money and human life, as
regarded remuneration it was nothing less than a bubble.
Tao public meetings referred to by Mr. Gibson were no-
thing like spontaneous expressions of opinion ; they bad
been got up be tie promoters of the scheme, and though
they had produced resolutions, the necessary subscrip-
tions had not been forthcoming. (Hear, hear.) Mr,
Stephenson had explained the difficulty of subsisting the
labourers employed on such a work ; he bad also shown
that even if the canal were made the progress would be
quicker by the railway than it could be by the canal As
the winds blew f a-eix months in one direction, the passage
of vessels in the other would be seriously obstructed. It
was quite a mistake to say that the Government had
been employed 15 years in preventing the Sultan from
acceding to this measure ; but the Government of Turkey
was as much opposed to it as was the Government of
England. Knowing that tire Ottoman Government was
pressed by other powers to sanction the scheme, the
Government of this country had sought to dissuade
them. Mr. Gibson was for maintaining the independ•
ence of Turkey, but he said nothing of the integrity of
Turkey, which was quite as essential to be preserved.
We had sent out expeditions for that object; and every
year that passed showed more strongly the necessity of
maintaining the connection of Turkey and Egypt, and
preventing Egypt from feeling into the hands of any
power opposed to us. (Hear, hear.) Since the siege
of Alexandria, every point of the coast of Egypt bad
been most scientifically fortified by ensineers and funds
supplied by another country. Were an army of 20,000
men to occupy that line of forts, Egypt would be per-
fectly impregnable to any army from Turkey. There
remained only one passage for a Turkish army into
B2ypt, along the shores of the Mediterranean ; and the
object of this scheme was to bar that passage. Were the
ruler desirous to shake off his aregiance to Turkey, the
existence of this canal would greatly favour the object,
and render the retention of Egypt by Turkey much
more precarious. That was the argument which the
Government of this country had urged on Turkey. It
was also contrary to the interest of England that this
canal should be made, which might be barred to this
country, our ships being sent round by the Cape, while
it was open to another power, and gave them ready access
to India. (Hear, hear.) We should not shut our eyes
to these facts, though we might not be actually within
a few hours of war. (A laugh.) After this scheme had
been practically scouted by all the commercial men of
he country—(co)—Yes, "damned with faint praise."
The only result
.eif affirming this resolution would be to
give a " pailiameutary title" to the scheme, and send
up the shares in the market. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
the house would not be deluded into Ai y such cour-e,
but would believe that there would not have been a con-
tinued opposition by successive Governments unless the
scheme were really opposed to the interests of the cow.-
try. (Hear )
Mr. J. E WART said that the scheme was regarded
as a bubble in Liverpool, where he believed a single
share would not be subscribed for.

Mr. GLADSIONE contended that it was not f,r
the house to decade whether the scheme was or was not
a bubble. The question WAS, whether they should put
an end to thie vici -ius system of arbitrary and gratuitous
masons against it ? By those reasons the intera:t of Eng-
land was put in odp,sition to that of the world, arid all
Europe denounced our opposition as unwarrantable and
seiti,h. He denied that the conbection of Turkey and
Egypt depended upon marching an army across the
Isthmus c f Stu z. 'By opposing the scheme, on the ground
of °doping new dangers to India, they put the interests
of oar Indian empire against those of inaokind. How
;Nat would have been the advabtage to us if this canal
had been open last rar, to facilitate-the transmission of
our troops. It would be England who would obtain the
control of the canal, as the first maritime nation in the

world. Let them not attempt to follow a policy which
tbey must abandon in time.
_ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER asked
what evid-nee there was that the power and influence of
England had been exercised in a manner that called for
a resolution of that house ? One would suppose that
means had been taken to constrain the Sultan to with-
hold his consent to the project, or that there were papers
on the table, showing an intention of taking such a
course ? There was no evidence of that sort. When Go-
vernment thought the project was of an injurious ten-
dency, it was not an undue interference to oppose it; and
he was unaware of any step of the late or present Govern-
ment to constrain the Sultan. To pass this resolution
would be to give the sanction of this house to the pro-
ject, and whatever their ultimate opinion, it would be
unwise to bind themself to a project of doubtful, and in
the opinion of many, a pernicious measure. They should
not leave out of sight the feelings of the Turkish Govern-
ment. It had been assumed that they were either neu-
tral or favourable. But the discussion had been a series
of assumptions; that Turkey was constrained by England,
that foreign nations were against us, &c. They were
told not to take a course hostile to France, but there
bad been on the part of France no expression of feeling
of that decided character which bad been implied. The
French Government had not desired to give to their
own opinion any weight beyond what it was entitled to
in fair argument. There were grave political considera-
tions in the question which must not be made light of.
He would not say that political considerations must not
sometimes yield to moral considerations, and if he could
see that the general felicity of mankind would be so
much advanced no doubt the political considerations
must yield. But these were speculations, and the poli-
tical reasons were facts. The integrity of Turkey would
be affected, and the Turkish Government were acutely
sensitive to the danger. It would also entail the neces-
sity of vastly increased armaments on our part, which
was a point worth considering in opposition to philan-
thropic results of a doubtful nature. (Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was clear that great
power and influence had been used by the late Govern-
ment to induce the Sultan to withhold his consent.
(Hear.) It bad always been avowed, by Lord Palmer-
ston, and was not even now denied. If this were a
bubble project, if there were insurmountable physical
obstacles, and if the Sultan of his own accord objected,
there was no need for the power and influence of Eng-
land to be used against it. As to the alleged injury to
English interests, he contended that in peace our policy
was that of the purest competition in trade, and in wars
whatever would be the Effect of a canal, the same would
apply to a railway.

• Mr. H. DRITiIMOND supported the policiy which
had been hitherto pursued by various Governments of
this country, for he believed it to be the true British
policy. He therefore opposed the motion.
Mr. BRIGHT asked if the correspondence would be
produced, as in that case Mr. Roebuck might be in-
duced to withdraw big motion.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ha
would answer the question if put to him this day.
After some observations from Mr. ROEBUCK in reply,
the amendment of Mr. Griffith was negatived without
Idivision, and the house then divided on the original
motion :
Ayes
Noes
Majority against Mr. Roebuck's motion---228
CHEQUES UPON BANKERS.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL introduced a bill
altering the law with reference to cheques upon bankers.
LANDED ESTATES IN IRELAND.
Mr. Bf7Tr obtained leave to introduce a bill simplify-
ing the titles to landed estates in Ireland.
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL,
Sir J. TRELAWNEY moved that this bill be read A
third time.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND moved that the debate be ad•
journed (it was half-past one o'clock).
Sir J. TRELAWNY said the subject had been tho-
roughly discussed, and there was therefore no reason
why they should not even at that advanced hour read
the bill a third time. (Cheers.)
Mr. NE WDEGATE supported the motion for ad- .
journment, and declared it to be his opinion that gen-
tlemen opposite had come to the determination of en-
deavouring to overthrow that august assembly tha
House of Lords by an exhibition of brute force. (Ob,
oh, and laughter.)
Mr. BRIGHT thought it was perfectly useless to ad'
journ the debate, as the result would be the same in the
end.

Mr. GLADSTONE thought it only reasonable that
the motion for adjournment should be acceded to.
Lord J. RUSSELL also supported the proposal for
the adjournment, although he was quite ready to divide
then. In any case, it seemed to him that there was but
little chance of the bill becoming law during the pre-
sent session. (Cries of Divide.)
Mr. ROEBUCK wanted t ) know whether th• Go-
vernment could give a day for continuing the debate if
they consented to its adjournment for the present ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ccr•
tainly joined in the opinion that it was unreasonable to
a•k the houso to divide upon so important a question at
such an hour. At the same time he could not give 1111)
a day for the adjourned debate. (Oh, oh.)
Mr. HUGUESSEN contilered any further discussion
a mere farce.
The house then divided—
Ayes .
Noes
150

Majority against adjournment... 47
Mr. F. HITYtE moved that the house do now adjourn.
(" Oh, ob.")
Mr. COLLIER pronounced the opposition to the bill
to be factious. (Cheers.)
Sir J. TRELA.%VNEY declared himself determined to
prcoeed with the bill that night. (Cheers.)
Mr. DRUMMOND, although perfectly aware the
bill must ultimately be carried, would persevere in rap-
porting the motion for adjournment.
Sir C. NAPIER would promise his hon. friend who
had charge of the bill, that if necessary he would stay in
his place until 10 o'clock in the morning to support Wins
(Loud cheers).
After a long discussion, in: which a great number of
members took part,
The house divided—
Ayes ...
Noes

TS
136

Majority against adjournment... 58
Mr. S. ESTCOITRT then proposed that the debate
should be adjourned until Tuesday next at 12 o'clock,
which was agreed to.
The house then adjourned at 20 minutes to three.