The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 21, 1858.

Bay Company's
and stating, in reply to .
Charter, anhdisthceortrreasdpeoonfatehnetscoinm
pany
North; :
his
Company'sduty to
contest the legality of the America, that he considered
Hitudns
oonilasrtßsafy
responsibility. Now, the matter
upon their own
_her Majesty's
_
rights ; and 'if they wished to do so they int et do so
one which concerned her Govern.
was
snt and that house, and they ought fully to consider
theirnatter before they proceeded to colonisation. He
said, " They:should surrender such portions of the terri-
tory as were claimed by Canada." Now that was beg-
ging the whole question. Why should such lands be
conceded to the Hudson's Bay Company ? By what
authority were they entitled to them ? It seemed to him
to be a matter which concerned the whole empire, and
not to be confined to the Hudson's Bay Company nor
Canada in particular. If Canada were in possession of the
whole of the vast territory, she would not be able to
manage it. The real question was, whether the Hudson's
Bay Company's door was to be closed to the rest of the
world, or whether it was to be thrown open to the rest
of her Majesty's subjects. The noble lord read, also, a
letter from Mr. Shepherd, referring to the Hudson's Bay
Company's advantages in their trade in furs and various
. other commodities, and having urged that those exclu-
sive advantages in trade operated with them to exclude
the rest of her Majesty's subjects from any participation
in them, he said it seemed to him that her Majesty's Go.
vernment and the House of Commons had a right to in-
vestigate the whole subject. (Hear.) He would, if the
house would allow him, state how the case stood. But
before he did that be begged to remark, that he had
very seldom, out of that house, heard Hudson's Bay
mentioned, without hearing also the terms " sterile, bar-
ren, unfit for colonisation." Now that was an erroneous
impression. (Hear.) It might be true, and no doubt
wan, with respect to some districts, but comparatively
only of a very small portion. Bat it was equally true
that 500,000 square miles of the territory of the com-
pany presented as valuable a tract for colonisation as
any other portion of her Majesty's dominions. (Hear.)
That wasthe nature of the land eastward of the Rocky
Mountains—land abounding in rich prairies, and inter-
sected by great and navigable lakes and rivers. His hon.
and learned friend did not allude to the water commu-
nication, which presented the greatest advantages
for aiding in facilitating the trade and produce of the
country. A great ship canal bad been constructed, and
to encourage those whose enterprise led them to engage
in the work, 170,000 acres of land had been set aside,
which were distributed in portions to them as they pro-
gressed. The sale of those lands by the parties proved
most productive • and he should not think it at all diffi-
cult to set aside large tracts of land on each side of any
great railroad for distribution amongst those who might
be engaged in the enterprise. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
the day was not distant when the scheme which his hon.
and learned friend had shadovied out would be carried
into effect. He would, in a very few words, call atten-
tion to the claims of the Hudson's Bay Company. It
would not be denied that no grant could be valid, if the
grantor had not the right to grant it ; and he thought
he could prove that in the reign of Charles 11. this
country bad no right to snake the grant to the Hudson's
Bay Company. He thought he could prove that the land
was at the time the property of another Christian people,
the subjects of another realm. The company's charter
expressly used the words—" All lands that might be in
possession of the British Crown at the time of the grant."
Now, supposing that to be valid, the treaty of Ryswick
at once and for ever upset it. He wished to act as fairly
' as he possibly could towards the Hudson's Bay Com-
pany ; but it had been said that the property had been
inviolably secured by the grant in the hands of the com-
pany. (Hear.) In 1598, a considerable number of years
' before the charter was granted, Henry IV.. of France,
I made M. Le Roux Lieutenant-Governor of the terri-
tory; and a French writer, so early as 1511, described
the country, indicating possession. The noble viscount,
having traced the history of the company and the char-
ter with great minuteness of detail from the year 1670
down to 1713, contended that the Crown had no right t )
grant the charter to the company, the territory indisput-
ably belonging to France, and not to England. When it
became known in France that the British had for the
first time established themselves on the shores of Hud-
son's 'Bay, orders were given to oust them at all
hazards. It wee not until the year 1713 that England
became indisputably possessed of the territory, the Hud-
son's Bay Company never, until that period, attempting
to interfere with the French trader. The rights of the
Hudson's Bay Company were derived from their mono-
poly of trade, which was granted by the pretended char-
ter, and from their licence of occupation for 21 years,
which would expire next year. With the latter he had
nothing to say. Supposing the charter to be valid, the
subject of the monopoly of trade was open to certain
legal objctions, and in support of this opinion he quoted
from the writings of B!acketone and other eminent au-
thoritier. Hudson's Bay was subject to the same laws
which governed other colonies of her Majesty's doimi-
alone at that time. Monopoly was considered illegal by
the English law, and it was manifest that Charles 11., in
granting an exclusive right to trade, granted that which
was not his. An exclusive licence to trade meant an ex-
clusive licence to po-sess the lives, labour, and liberty of
all the people of that dieriet. They had heard a great
deal about the colonising; spirit of the Hudson's Bay
i Company, but he believed it had been much exaggerated.
lie thanked the house fur having so patiently heard him,
and he deAred to concha le his statement in the memor-
able words of a Canadian legislator—" This was the
noadn;ss of monopoly. Sorely the Hudson's Bay
Company did not expect, by their effete and stupid
charter, be it right or wrong, to shut np for ever the
route of the great West." In that sentiment he full
agreed. Nothing could be better expressed. The
monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company could no
longer be continued, if the people of England were
only awakened to the importance of the subject. He
trusted that the eyes of the public would be opened
to this great question, and that her Majesty's Ministers
woul 1 not be backward in acting on the hints they
had got that evening.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he believed he only expressed
the unanimous feeling' of the house, when he.expressed
the great interest with which he had listened to the dis-
cussion. (gear.) The boo. and learned member for Shef-
field was a veteran in the cause. On this and on other
sulj ens connected with British North America
he had been the expositor of early truths,
most of which bad attained to realieation, and
he (Mr. Gladstone) was convinced that the sub
stance of the history which the hon. and learned mem-
ber bad given, and the opinions he had expressed, were
so sound and just that they must become the bases of
the policy of this country ; and, as a veteran in the
cause, he was sure the hon. and learned gentleman must
have witnessed with pleasure the accession to that cause
that night of one who, though a novice in years, was yet
in knowledge and accomplishments a master of the eulj e:t
(Hear, hear.) If he said no more in reference to the
speech of the noble viscount it was only because that
noble lord had so completely mastered the subject that
it would be presumptuous in him (Slr. Gladstone) to be
profuse in complimen's to one who was so much his
superior. The hen, and learned gentleman divided his
argument int i theee propositions. He urged that the
privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company, about to ex-
pire, ought not to be renewed ; that the' legal validity
of the exclusive rights claimed by the company under
their charter ought to he at once deters-nine Iby process
or law ; and that so much of the territory hitherto held
by the company as might he needed for the purpose of
colonisation ought without delay to be reeumed by the
Government of this country. Of these points it seemed
to him that the most important was the second. In
point of fact, the first and th'rel prepositions, to a con-
siderable eaten% were not only connected with but de-
pendent upon it. The hon. and learned gentleman had
pointed out that much of the conduct of the Hudson's
Bay Company with reference to the resumption of the
land in their territory, on which must depend the issue
of the investigation which he recommended, was unjaz-
tifiable ; and no one could have listened to the speech of
the noble viscount without perceiving that this was a very
serious matter. (Hear, hear.) There-was a large Ina.
tion of the earth with regard to the character cf which
we bad been systematically kept in the dark—(hrar,hear)
by those whose interests alone were concerned in prescrv-
. ing that ignorance. Take only one proof of that assertion.
Let any one read the interesting work of Governor Simp-
son—his " Voyage round the Worlr —written without
any special reference to the Hudson's Bay Company, and
be will find that be gives a glowing description of the
capabilities both agricultural and 'for purposes of eel a
nisation, of much of the territory of the Hudson's Bay
C impany. Well, last year the right bon. gentleman the
rnenib?r for Taunton, then Colonial Secretary, moved for
a oommittee of the house to inquire into the affairs of
the Hudson's Bay Company, and before that committee
questions were raised which seriondy involved the rights
of the company, aid Governor Simpson was called as a
witness. The hon. and learned member for Sbeffiel I then
quoted to him the statements with regard to the capabi
lities of the territory of that country ; beta change came
over the spirit of his dream, and he reported that all who
thought to settle in those inhospitable regions would be
racked with fogs and geld; and when one of the commit-
tee,nthuei t
yGw:i
Wtvhearaiito
)rl
a, inconvenientced althoughi n
re a
net
oudtri if
difficulty
ill
to,yuf ferreted
crheoetnnesdhi
doeeurtahb attemptedli
considerable
bi
nogoek,
to reconcile tie; two account, when before the commit-
tee he wished to prove that it was no use to try to pluck
and lay bare a company winch had nothing to lose. It
was undoubted that a large portion of that territory
L'
admirably adapted for colonisation, and it was e u d.'
certain that the Hudson's Bay Company was the einem;
of colonisation. Ali its views, habits, purposes, and ar-
rangements were not directed to colonisation, but t) of .
jests which required that colonisation should be kept off.
If it was necessary in Scotland, in order to create a deer
park, to clear the sheep from the region, so in the Hud-
eon's Bay territory. in order to the carrying on of the
fur trade, it was indispensab.e that all colo. iation should
he kept off their unyielding region. His noble friend
had shown that the rights of the Hudson's Bay Com•
pany to their territory were at least doubtful. It was at
least dou'Aful whether, when their charter was granted,
the territory did not belong to France. The hon. and
learned member for Sheffi Id had shown that in the
time of William 111. the charter depended on eir-
cueamrss.'anTceisse e xel u which
rive licencehig wash have
but
given
the t
ceased
bou theicriomgpeavneyn
y
only to trade with the Indians: bu
Hudson's Bay Company had been to exclusdineeaslsl torfat4lie 1
a-id yet when their charter was given trade with
thee
Indians was not only contemplated, but other trading I
also, and the trade in minerals especially. His nolla
friend said that the Hudson's Bay Company had written
up in their territory the words, ''No thoroughfare;" and
weereas another usual mode of inscriptien was, "No
a imiesion except 0 s bu,incep," the Hudson's Bay Corn-
ea) ease epc c'ary to exclude all admissionpepahniyaw bad
taason bDE ineSe. (Hear) His noble friend was
i i 'tit vhen he sell that there had been no change in that
respect, and that it was essentially a part of the under-

taking of the company that all human beings, uneon- would be much better to leave the whole matter to her
nected with themselves, should be excluded from their Majesty's Government than to adopt those resolutions.
territory. This was a most interesting question, and , Sir E. B. LYTTON--Sir, it is with some reserve that
though it touched A country mtsch of which was inhos- i I approach the.great and difficult questions involved in
pitable and uninhabitable, there was much of romance '
the resolutions of my hon. and learned friend. The
eaohnonueteitte.d, Although law
you
uw romance ct
he
ewpeeroep
lnotpeople
o f_easilythose
1 . .
Government, as yet, are in the condition of negotiators.
' I the lives they led to the law under which ' Certain distinct propositions, as the right hon. gentle-
theyregions and tauurdnedrofrmo
were placed, there never could be a more serious or man who spoke last told ne, were made to Canada by
a more interesting question. There was one other point the late Government with regard to any districts now
in connection with the charter of the company to which
covered by the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company
he wished to allude. At present the Hudson's Bay Com-
pany
in possession, by virtue of their charter, of a
were
territory extending from the sources of the Saskatchewan And, whatever cause there may be to suppose that
river, a thonsand miles, to the foot of the Rocky Mona- I Canada will reject those proposals, still every motive of
taina. If you admitted the right they claimed by virtue policy, as well as of respect to that great colony would
of their charter and their exclusive right of trading, it
desire that any other scheme for colonisation in us
was still doubtful, looking to the language of the char- make .
may have her sympathy and concurrence.
ter, whether it was intended to give the Hudson's Bay that' region .
Company that vast tract of territory, and whether the (Hear.) Still, Sir, I own that the prohability that
land granted to them was not that on the bay, and on Canada will reject the proposals made to her is so note-
the lakes and rivers in the immediate neighbourhood of rions, and the interests involved in this vast question
the bay. The Hudson's Bay Company did not at first ,
are so great, that I cannot hesitate to state, at least, the
possess themselves of this tract of land extending to the 1
general .
Rocky Mountains, but for 100 years they departed a i
I views by which I venture to think we ought to
...
very little from the bay; and they only spread themselves be guided. ( Hear.) In glancing over the vast regions
over that vast territory when they formed their fortunate devoted to the fur trade, which are loosely said to be as
coalition with the right hon. gentleman the member for large as Europe, the first thought of every intelligent
Coventry. (Hear.) It would appear that serious ques•
En Tishman must be that of humiliation and amaze.
tions in point of law bad been raised against the privi-
leges and rights exercised by the Hudson's Bay Com- Ii it p .
oisible that so great a segment of the earth,
pany, and the opinions of legal authorities had been under the English sceptre, can have so long
taken —he meant the opinions of counsel, not any judi- been abandoned as a desolate hunting ground for
cial decision—a Long others those of Lord Brougham, wandering savages and wild animals ? I put aside, for a
Mr. Sergeant Spankie, and Sir Arthur Pigott, which 1
, moment, excuses of soil and climate ;it is always pre-
bore.,
out the opinions which had been expressed in that
debate. It was said that there was some hardship in sumptuous to decide hastily between man and nature—.
raising this question at the present time ; that the"com- to say what man may or may not do to conquer those
pany had been in possession of these rights for nearly two obstacles of soil and climate which nature may raise
centuries, and though the grant tothem might have been against him. It is enough for us to cling to the grand
originally wrong, yet it bad gradually inured and hard- principle that civilisation should be left to find its own
ened into right by the lapse of time. That was not a
.view which the House of Commons had as yet consented voluntary channels; that we should not force it, but
to recognise, for in 1849 the House of Commons voted should take if. (Hear, hear.) No
care not to obstruct
an address to the Crown praying that legal steps might one can deny that a trade which preserves wild animals
be taken to test the validity of the rights of the corn- and has a direct interest in excluding civilised men does
pany. He (ilr. Gladstone) moved the address in the
house, and he thought that the phrase "legal steps" !obstruct civilisation, if it claims territorial rights in any
district which civilised men are disposed to cultivate and
meant a legal process in an adequate court of law, ac-
bit (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the
cording to the good old constitutional custom which hal ini‘a • . .
existed for 200 years, when companies were found in member for the University of Oxford summed up the
possession of rights which were hostile to the public in- general evidence before our committee in the first two
terests, that those rights were tried in the courts of law,
of a series of resolutions which he proposed to that coin-
, in which the companies were quite competent to defend t
• i
themselves. But the noble earl the Secretary for the Colo-
mittee on
first, that the country capable of colonisa
should 'be withdrawn from the jurisdiction of the Hud-
nies understood theaddressina.different sense, and instead I
sot ho Bay Company ; secondly, that the country in-
of causing judicial process to be adopted, contented himself I
capable of colonisationshould be left to that jurisdiction.
with obtaining from the company a statement of their
In the two abstract principles involved in these propo-
nent parte of course—and on that ex parte state- sitione lies the readiest solution of the grave difficulties
ment he obtained the opinion of the law officers of the that beset the question ;it is the attempt of a practised
Crown, who stated that in the case laid before them they 1 statesman to effect a compromise by which civilisation
saw no reason to question the rights of the company ; may gain all it asks at present, and bumaaity may not
and then it was intheated to a young man who was only preserve to the savages scattered over frozen
struggling to educete hiueself in the University of Glasgow deserts, inaccessible to regular government, the trade on
that it was at his option, as a private individual, to try wench they depend for existence, but guard them from
the question of the rights of the company. (Hear, hear.) the terrible demoralisation produced by rival bribes of
it should, perhaps, be stated that the company never ardent spirit-, and the strife and bloodshed among
showed any disinclination to submit their claims tojadi- themselves, or between themselves and the whites,
cial decision in a court of law. He confessed it appeared which might follow if the administrative machinery
to him that there was a great deal of error in the notion which it is the interest of a trading company to
that the pessestions of the company were consecrated by establish were destroyed before any effective substitute
time. It was a mistake to suppose that the flourishing could be found. These are the reasons which will
monepnly which we now saw was the product of the weigh upon the Government in considering the renewal
charter of Charles 11, For 150 years after that charter of the licerice. They will certainly no; renew the
was granted this body dragged on a feeble ands piritless licence over any part of the Indian territory which pro-
existence. The pretent flourishing monopoly was not the mites early settlement ; but they reserve for farther de-
child of the charter of Charles 11., hut it was the child of liberation whether they will renew it for a limited period
one who understood his business, the right hon. gentle- over the more reuatts and northern regions, taking care
man the meinber fon Coventry--(hear, hear)—whose
should
that the Government shall have always the power to
Bence on this occasion they must all regret, for ho withdraw from that Ecorse any land that may be re-
have been present to have received the honours he had quired for the uses of civilized life ; that they shall retain
gained. (Hear, hear.) But in admitting that you at once all the imperial rights to fisheries and mines, and what,-
stripped the company of its character for antiquity, and I
I ever may call forth human.industry and enterprise in
gave it a character somewhat of modernism. The Poe' pursuits more congenial to our age than that gloomy
sessions of the company as they now stood were recent 1 trade in the skins of animals which seems to carry us
possestione. No one could hold that there was any back to a date before the annals of histcry. Now,
hardship in taking steps to teat the right of the company, although the renewal of the license may possibly form a
althoughgh care should be taken with regard to the msoae part of any fe esh negotiations with the Hudson's Slay
you proceeded. If the company bad right tds Company for arrangements respecting the Red :River
the hon. and learned member for Sheffi:ll had said g Stetletnent ; yet it ought in principle to be considered
they would not be deprived_cif them, except on compheant- apart from much arrangements, and on its own merits.—
sation awarded to them. It might also appear teat
of in lands held as yet o. ly by the Indians does the exclu-
although the company had no great rights in pointliberal sive license or does it not work well for the Indians?
law, in p int of equity there were grounds fur a
.. It is a question wholly distinct from that of the charter;
treatment of their claims, and there might be anetcher the license gives none cf the territ atial rights which the
sity for sone iotermediate mode of dealing with
whos charter asiumesit involves no principle of compwisa-
question ; nor must it be supposed that t ,038
tion in cote of any lands which colonists may require,
wished fey a legal investigation of this question wishedwith
the which
it ought to Le legarded simply as an instrument by
to deal hardly with those who were connected which the Government can effect that safeguard from
company, and who may have invested their property in broil and disorder which in so vast and profitless a win
its undertakings, and who ought to be fairly dealt with. adrness the Government i 3 not able of itself to establish.
But it was clear that the British public had rights in this But, whatever doubts may be entertained as to the
matter. He did not now say that it we were to colonise second proposition of the right hon. gentleman the
this territory our colonisation was to proceed direct from member for Oxford, that Itnd incapable of colonisation
this conotty, or whether we should recogni e Canada as should be left to the jurisdiction of the Hudson's
the medium for carrying out that object. That was an Bay Company, no one can dispute the sours muss of
important question, and one which he would leave to the the first proposition, that the country capable of
consideration of the responsible Ministers of the Crown, celoniaition should be withdrawn frem that jetisdic-
But without inquiring whether Canada or this country tion ; and turniog our eyes from a trade which, unlike
was to undertake the duty of founding this new colony, all other commerce, rests its profits, not on the redemp-
yet he might say that this country had rights in the tion, but on the maintenaece of the vei!deraeep, it must
, matter, and that the necessity of opening this field of cheer ui to see already, in the great border lands of
enterprise imposed duties open us at home. However this hitherto- lotto pitable region, the epening proFpact
leniently we might be inclined to deal with the corn •
pany, we must not allow this enormous obstruction on
the road to a great part of the earth, possessed of sum
vast capabilities, to remain until we had ascertained that
strict law at ,od in the way of its removal. (Hear.)
He came now to the last point which ho wished to bore-
eider,coo-
and that teat, what course was te be taken on the
present occasion. He was sure the hon. and learned
gentleman and the noble viscount would be satisfied with
woull feel that a great deal bad been done towards este-
blithing their case. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Gladstone)
of civilised life, (Hear, heat.) Already, by the Pacific,
, Vanceuverni lelatal has been added to the social cone al u-
nities of mankint. Already, in the large territory which
extends west of the Rocky Mountains, from the Ameri
can frontier up to the skirts of the Russian domains, we
are laying the foundations of what may become,
after, a magnificent abode for the human race, and nos
eastward of the RockyMoure eine, we are invited to see
in the settle sent of the Red River, the nucleus if a new
the effect of their epeechea in the house, and that they
colony, a rampart Against any hostile inroads from the
Americau frontier, and an essential arch, as it were, to
that great viaduct by which we hope one day to coonew
would not be suspected of want of sympathy with the
the hartours of Vancouver with the Gulf of S. La e-
mover and seconder of this motion, if he suggested that
rence. This is the district efft red to Canada, and I think
they would do well to leave the question in the hands of
my hon, and learned friend has good reason to etume
the Government. They had heard the speeches of the
that Canada will decline the task of forming itpr into a
mover and seconder of the motion, and they would re-
colony at her (ten responsibility and charge. If the an-
edge, from what had passed that night, great assistance swer trern Canada be unfavourable, we have two options
towards determining the course tbey should take. If the —either to leave the di• trot, as now, under the jurisdic-
house was to go to a division now, it would tend to tion of the Hudson's B.ey Company, which nothing but
create a f l-,e) impression out of doors, and therefore he absolute necessity should jutity, or to take it into our
should be gratified if the hon. and learned gentleman, own hands and form a colony, which will, no doubt, one
having Interred to the statement of the Minister of the eay constitute a confederate part of a great Canadian
Crown on the subject—unless that statement was en- system, and which might meanwhile, perhepe, be admi-
tirely hostile to his views—would leave it in the hands ni,tere-cl by a Government in concurrence with Canad i. f the Government to deal with this important question. To this there have been two oljections. The tirtt is the
(Cheers.)
presumed expense. This Ido not at present anticipate.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that, when in office, he All healthful colonies shoull be self-supporting, and I
gave this question a great deal of consideration, and bad agree cnith my hen. and Yearned •friend in the general
moved for a committee on the subject. The right bon. theory he advances with so much eloquence and wisdom.
gentleman who had just spoken seemed to think that Colonies will be self-supporting in proportion as you leave
them to raise their own revenues under free institutions
the validity of the charter was the main question to be • • 'thatsuch - I .
The second of as,
considered, but that was not the opinion of the members , peopled by Canadians ; that, owing to the easier access
( f that committee, or even of the right hon. gentleman 1 fr ;m the American frontier, the majority of immigrants
himself at the time. Oa the contrary, he thought he would he A mericanie. Titiiiechjitenctottnt dotes not alarm me.
might say that, almost without exception, it was consie Americanlnthe firs tteprlraicteo,rytaoeusg the
the readiest accesss c,l
e doesfrom nott."
dered expedient to maintain the monopoly of the Hod- follow that thy sta ouli all be Americans. Probably
soo's Batt. Company. He knew that anything like a large netnietre of our own countrymen, especially the
monopoly of trade was very unpopular, bat his duty was Scotch, would flock there, as well as Americans, and as
cot to consider what was unpopular or poplar, but what settledas British colonists is pro-
wasf or Atntricane, once . i't
b'e that they would soon 'sleet ft' their national feel-
light. It was necessary that those immense terri-
ibnag s and interests with the land in which they lived, and
tories should be under the governrnent.of some body cr
the conditions of the Imperial Government. (Hear,
ether in order to
.prevent collisions between the native h:ar.) It has been so aleee 'y in Canada. It would be
radiate and the adventurers who might otherwise fleck so at Red River ; because all history tells us bow soon
to them. The incursion of whits trappers and hunters mere if at all of kindred race, take, as it were, the stamp
colour of the land in which they settle. We, s
and
upon a large scale would not only exterminate the gild
of tf t troth. -
in this
than 16
country, are an instance ie. No less
anintale by which the Indian trappers and hunters lived,
but the Indians themselves in the course of a ver counties in t .is kingdom were given up to the iminiera-
y few tion of the Danes, and probably the great mass of the
years, ne had been the case in corresponding territories ptpulatan in these counties, such as Yorkshire, Lin-'
ia the United States. (Hearn In regard to the ques- eolnshire, Norfolk, ate of Danish origin to this day. Yet
tion of the charier of the thrwson's Bay Company, he in a very short time they became as heartily English and
thou-At it would be a matter of great public convenience as hostile to the Danes of the Bettie as the Angl •-Saxons
if the rights of the company ruder that charter could bo of Kent. Nay, even the Normans, despite their pride
definitively ascertained. For his part he would be glad as a congesting race, despi'e the difference of language,
to sea the whole of the charter done away with, and the became in the third generation as intensely Engieli and
whole of that part of the territory not under cultivation, an i-French in their national feelings as if they had been'
but which was capable of it, colonised. More than 100 nexonTnegns. Ia short, no matter where men come
years ago the Government of that time were anxious to from, place them in ground covered hthe British fles
a certain whether the charter was valid. or not. They overshadowed, though at a distance, by the mild British
referred the question to the law officers of the Crown, sceptre, and they will soon be British in sentiment and
and Lord Mansfield and Sir F. Ryder expressed their feeling. All that I say on this scoredas do not, on account
joint opinion, "that, considering how long the company of such jealousies and fear', obstruct civilisation. Here
had enj :yeti this charter, we do not think it advisable is land fit for settlement ; if civilised men will settle in
for her Majesty'a Government to make any express order it, let them. Never let us mind the difficulties c-f access,
until some authoritative jadgment is de.ivered on the soil, or climate. Leave the difficulties to them. , Nature
ease."
- • and man will fight their own battle and make their own
Mr. ROEBUCK—Hear, hear.
peace. With regard to the fitness of the place itself for
Mr. LABOUCILERE said be was anxious, when in colonisation, I -am contented to take the opinion of the
office, to have the point settled by a court of justice, and Hudson's Bay Company themse lees ;f:r, in a letter from
fur this purpose he applied to Sir Richard B thell and tSe company to Lord Glenelg, February 10, 1837, when
another eminent lawyer, and they told him in converaa- asking for a renewal of the licence, I find it said, " the
tion that they would not recommend proceeding by quo soil and climate of the country of the Red River
weneante against a company of -this description. They settlement are favourable to colonisation; that it was
did not think it light to raise at this period of time the intended that this settlement should be peopled by mi.
question of the general validity of the charter, except so grants from Britain, and that the company hoped to
far as it related to the exclusion from the territory of establish in time a valuable export trade from thence to
a
persons acting in violation of the regulations. After the mother country in wool w
, flax, tallowy and'other re-
g
• leaning consulted English and colonial lawyers, his (Mr. cultural produce." Sanguine hopes !
not realised since
Labounhnre's) opinion was that, so far as territorial 1837 under the auspices of the company, but which may
rights were concerned, the charter was good, but that be more rapidly fairs led when the company withdraws
wee retpect to the territory for which they held a from the place the shadow of its chilling protection.
licence the Crown might interfere. s!..nd bo it observed (Hear.) With regard to the ssfety of a settlement at the
that all the lend they hal(' under a licence was far better Red River from all or iitary attacks that might be made
in soil and climate and more adapted for colonisation, on it from the American quarter, I have a most sails-
and the licence was never given except with the distinct factory report from Sir W. Eyre, the lieutenant-general
reservation on the part of the Crown to establish col e- commanding the forces in British North America. He
me•s to any extent, The bill now before the house with states that "the Red River settlement censitts of about
respect to New Celadouia was a proof of this. It was an , 8,000, of whom 2 000 are Irish, English, and Scotch ;
imperial right to use this vast territory for the benefit of the remaining 6,000 all mostly half-breeds. They are ge-
mankind, and not to shut out any part of it, unless on 1 r.erally good shots, skilled in the use of fire arms, and
grounds of po icy, from persons disposed to coleniee it. good horsemen. A local force or militia cf at least 1,000
He believed that the Hnd-on'a Bay Company had acted I men could besasily organicel and embedie I." The bar-
hu-nanely towards the natives. They had improved the ricks are p:rrectty habitable, and the post defensih'e,
condition of tLo Indian tribes, given them a value in i except against Leavy or inance, which it world be diffi-
their oven eyes, and made them better and useful men. jcut to bring rip against it. Norway is the chief horse
He would say, take away from the Iludsen's Bty Cain-1 depot ,•f the coinpany—the poeition might he mule im-
party any part of the territory that you can celonise, I pregnable. All communica!ion between Inke Superior
but do net throw these vast territories open to ali and the Red River is now, according to Sir G. Simpson,
comers, Such a course would devolve on her Ma- iinpracticabls for any body of troop,. "A few indivi-
jiety's, Government a great amount of responsi- duals might go,
but not any fence.- There id abundance
bill y. Upon the whole, he thought the Hudson's of provisions in the country ;no want need be appre-
Bay Company had answered its purposes, and that, hended ; water is good, wood abun twit. The climate is
with the restrictions be had suggested, it was severe in winter, but healthy at all seas ,es." These
entitled to a renewal of the charter. He could not 1 few extracts may suffice to show that a settlement once
advise the house to cut prematurely the knotty points) established would be safe from danger from without.
suggested by the bon, and learned gentleman's reselu • ; As regards the fur trade in this district, I need ecsrcely
tions. With regard to the first resolution, he (Mr. La- ' say, that if you take the land from the Hudson's Bay
beuchere) suggested that the privileges granted to the Company, the monopoly that goes 'with the land will
Hudson's Bay Company should be continued. As to expire. To attempt to maintain there the monopoly
the second resolution, the law officers of the Crown had ' would be impossib!e, and only give rise to perpetual feuds.
expressed an opinion different from that of the hon. In fact, I must be pardoned if I say that there is good
and learned gentleman ; and as to the thirdresolution,reason to believe that that monopoly has practically in I
that was a truism. - Upon the whole, he thought it a great m.asure ceased to meet in those parts. ...Major

Seton reports from Fort Garry itself—" The Hud-
son's Bay Company have long since abandoned in prac.
tics their pretensions to exclusive trade in this district
and far beyond it." Captain Palliser writes word :
"That monopoly there is unattainable now and for ever
more ; that the people engaged in the illicit trade are in-
habitants of the Indian land, and born on its soil. Most
of them half-breeds, they are British subjects, and what-
ever the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company under the
charter, they think it a very hard case that they should
be debarred from trading in the land of their birth. There
appears to be a shadow of justice in this complaint ; but,
just or not, the opposition exists, an i nothing short of ex-
tirpating the people engaged in it can ever stop it,"
Indeed, this report is eo far confirmed by Mr. Shepherd
himself, on the part of the Hudson's Bay Company, that
he states, in a letter to the Colonial-office :
" That the diversion of the fur trade is carried on by the
inhabitants of the Red River settlement, who, regardless
of the Hudson's Bay Company, conduct an illicit trade in
spirituous liqours and furs in various parts of the country."
I think, therefore, there can be no doubt that when the
company yields the land it must resign the monopoly.
It will be an after consideration by what regulations the
trade should in that case be carried on so as to maintain
order and peace, and respect that considerate humanity
which is due to the Indians. But now comes the diffi-
culty. Tne land we would thus dispose of for colonisa-
tion is within the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company,
and if that charter be valid, the land belongs to the com-
pany, but not the monopoly of the trade, except as in-
cludes the right of ownership to keep others off the land.
The law officers of the late Government, men of very
high distinction, consider—
" That the Crown cannot now, with justice, raise the
question of the general validity of the charter, but that on
every legal principle the company's territorial ownership
of the lands granted. and the rights incident thereto, as,
for example, the right of excluding from their country per-
sons acting in violation of their regulations, ought to be
deemed valid."
While this opinion of the late law officers remains before
us, unexamined by our own law officers, it would be pre-
sumptuous in me to express any opinion of my own. It
is our intention to submit the question to the most care-
ful and deliberate censideration of our law officers, and
ascertain from them whether in equity and justice we
could advise the Crown or recommend to Parliament any
mode by which to facilitate a judicial decision upon this
venerable title-deed. But I am bound in justice to the
company to say that, though it might be very desirable
to try the validity of the charter, it is not absolutely
necessary to do so for any immediate objects of colonisa-
tion. It is but just to the company to say that it has not
hitherto shown itself stubborn or intractable. It does not
say, "You shall not have the land which our charter
covers." It says, on the contrary, "Take whatever land
you please, Heaven forbid we should stand in the way of
civilisation. We are not the fit agents to colonise, we
have not the means for it ; we tried it at Vancouver's,
and are glad to get rid of the experiment; take, then,
whatever land you desire within the range of the charter.
But"—hers comes the critical but !—" we rely on your
honesty ;"—(hear)—in other words, "if you take from
us that which we actually possess without proving that
we have not the right to possess it—we are human beings,
and we expect some kind of compensation." (Hear.)
Seeing all the embarrassments cf this dilemma, I cannot
but admire the skill with which, in pursuance of the re-
port of our committee, the right hon. gentleman the
member for Taunton devised a scheme which was in-
tended to unite the objects we have in view with a tem-
perate conciliation towards the claims of the company.
He proposed to cede this territory to Canada if she
would agree to open a line of communication to it, and
give satisfactory evidence of her intention to take steps
for laying out townships and settling and administering
the affaws of these diets-lets ; and as to the Hudson's
Bay Company, he proposed to renew i's trading
liesece for 21 years over the a i derness cot fitted for
colonisation ; and that three commissioners—one chosen
by Canada, one by the Imperial Government, and one
by the company—should consider and report what, under
all the circumstarwes of the case, might be justly payable
to the company in consequence of such contemplated
annexation, and in respect of property which they might
be required to surrender. Well, if Canada reject these
proposals, our hands are free for fresh negotiations and
unfettered action. Meanwhile, to sum up my answer to
the hon. and learned gentleman, first, I thinle the
licence ought not to be renewed except where civilisa-
tion Las no requirements an 1 law no other inaelinery
but that of the company, Secondly, with regard to
raising the question of the validity of the charter, it will
be submitted to our lax officers, and we can obviously
say nothing one way or other till their opinion is re-
ceived. Thirdly, I grant the expediency of strengthen-
ing our empire in North America by subetitutieg, and
in one connected frontier line, the colonies of Great
Britain for tbe hunting grounds of a trading company.
(Hear.) It is my sincere wish and hope that arrange-
ments for that object may be effected in a spirit of
reasonable conciliation to all parties concerned, and that
we may thus lay the foundatieri of a civil,sed community,
upon those principhs of humanity towards the red men,
and of !valour and honesty toward, the white, which our
civilisation should carry al-tag with it wherever it ex-
tends, as the celeniatre of old carried along with them a
fragment of their native earth, and a light from the altar
of their ancient council hall. (Cheers.) Toe company
have assured us of their desire to meet the necessities
of the case in a rpadt of concession, and I do hope that
early next session we may propose to Parliament arrange-
ments that will receive its approval. In the object be-
fore us we all have a common interest—to fulfil the mis-
,ion of the An 10-Sax m race, in spreading into-lU,r;enee,
freedom, and Christian faith wherever Providence gives
us the dominion rl the soil, and industry and skill
build up citi-s in the desert. (Hear, bear.) Sir, hoping
that what I have said will satin-fy my hon. and learned
friend at least as to the general vie vs of the Govern-
meat, I have only to thank the house for the indulgence
ith which it has heard me. (Cheers.)
Lord J, RUSSELL said the right hon. gentleman
11.) had just sat down had a dEcult tack before him,
and ho was quite sure that the house would be inclined
to give him whatever time he might think necessary in
order to decide on the course of policy alich might seam
most ueeful to the country, and he might say, for the
benefit of mankind. There was one part of the question
which was easy, or at least appareelly easy, but they
had no sooner settled the easy part of the question than
they found themselves in an nl uost in-exalt:sable diffi-
cu'ay. That part which was easy was that part of the
question which his right horn frien6 the member for the
University, the member for Taunton, and the Secretary
of State were all aireed upon. They said there was part
of this. territory that was fit for c,donisation. So far they
were sailing in smooth water, and there were no reeks in
their way, but immediately they got beyond this part of
the question there arose a great number of questions be-
fore the matter could be settled. One question was., how
much was there of this territory which was capable of
colonisation ? They bad next the question, by whom
should this territory be colonawd? Should it be by Cana•
diens, or by emigrants from this country? And they had
then this further question—what were the rights of the
Fludeen'e Bey Company? He believed that the fludsou's
Boy Company considered this entirely as a comm9rcial
speculation. Thi y had not to deal wide a company like
the East India Company, having a dominion and great
power and patronage, whice they did not like to lose.
The Hudson's Bay Company looked only to profit, and
provided that was secured, and that their capital was
replaced, they took no further interest in the question.
There remained that which he was afraid was at the
bottom of the question, which they must solve before
they could go farther in the project they all enter-
tained, namely, what were the legal rights of this
camPa"37 ? The company sail, "Take the whole
territory if you will, but do net let us be unjustly de-
prived what we consider our property." -Well,
but what was their property, and what were their rights?
His right lion. friend (alr. Labouchere) had made propo-
sitions to Canada, to which, it appeared, there was no
nnswer. The question might to be solved, and unless we
took some steps wo might Lays the United States mak-
ing encroachments, and we might not have a f iir gelation
of this question. Well, then, it appeared to him, notwith
standing the opinion of the law officers of the Crown,
that they ought to have the decision of some legal tribu-
nal, bscause the whole quest ion of the Hudson's Bay
Cori; pany depended upon it, If they had no claim to the
territory they had no right to compensation, but if, on
the other hand, they had a claim and Parliament thought
that for the purposes of the country the territory should
be taken from them, then they had a claim for cornpen-
cation which could not be resisted. lie had no doubt that
Lord Mani-field and Sir Dudley Ryder gave what was a
wise opinion in their day., In 1749 they said, "Here is a
charter granted by the Crown ; there is no particular
reason of state why that charter should be disturbed. It
would be an ungracious thing for the Crown to raise the
question, and try to drive out those to whom the Crown
itself has given this privilege." Tbey acted on the prin-
ciple of Sir Robert Walpele, ‘• pieta non movere." But
we had come to a differetnt period—we had come to atime
when these questions were all disturbed, and it was ne-
cessary to get some decision, whether by the Privy Conn •
cil or a court of law, was a poict on which he could give
no epinioc, hut they ought to have some authoritative de-
cision in the first instance as to what tire tights of the
company were. His Iron, and learned friend said in hie
third resolution that so much of the territory as was fit
for colanisation ought to be re,served. Observe, he did not
say :hat the whole teritery stool l be reserved, but so
much of it as might be used for colouisation. Thatseemed
to take it far granted that there was a portion in which
nly furred animals .and a few sea' tared Indians could
find subsistence. What portions were and what were not
fit for colonisation was a question for the ex •cu ive go-
Trineen,. Wi' h rev.rd to the resolution that ides fah.
vilegea of the Milton's Bay Company ought not to be
renewed, ho was quite ith the declaration.
which the right ho-r. gerAtb_man had made. He thought
it f t.l- .t • • the "t ir
• the .1110,4 ire per. • rice v.a.,r1;41_16, of the eerie-
son's Bay Company should be ramertained. The prospect
before us was of immense megnitude. There seas tbe
a hoar question cf the coloniitatioiit of that opuntry fern
Vanceuver'e Iland to the backs of the S-. Lawrence,
and the route ahrig which railroads and other roads
night be kid might depend on Lae decision that might be
taken during the next twelve montas. The questior,
therefore, was of vast importance, and must ccoopy the
attention of Government, and wben the right lion, gen-
leman had matured his plan it would Le well worthy the
attention of the house. He was inclined to think it was
fir better that they should have a separate cola, y than
that they ehould a tech that vest territory to Canada. In
the fiat place tiler° might be a considerable coe, some
roil Lary force might be necessary. If se, Canada would
hardly undertake the expense •of military aid• He
thought it would be worthy_of this country to establish
in that territory two or three cloz,ies, which might in

course of time resemble in some respects the great states
of the American Union.
Mr. A. MILLS contended that it was not desirable
that the charter of the company should be at once dis-
continued in the case of those districts at all events
which were incapable of colonisation. He might also be
permitted to observe that there appeared to him to be
much force in the remark that we ought to do every-
thing in our power to protect the native Indian race,
which his own experience tended to prove was rapidly
becoming extinguished. (Hear.) We should employ
all means to delay at least as much as possible the extinc-
tion of those races. In the spirit of the resolutions he
quite concurred, and would only add that he hoped the
day was not far distant when the legal question that
had been raised should be finally settled. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LOWE thought if it was desirable to take from
the Hu ?son's Bay Company the territory of which they
were possessed, there could be little difficulty in the
matter ; and if the company were not entitled to those
possessions they were not entitled to compensation.
But the Hudson's Bay Company were a trading and
a commercial company, and if by the legislation of that
house their trade should be injured and taken away from
them, then they would be entitled to compensation for
the injury. He confessed there was one thing which he
should much regret to nee, and that was the claims and
rights of the Hudson's Bay Company subinitted to the
decision of a court of law. (Hear, hear.) The Hud-
son's Bay Company had received their charter, with
certain grants of land, from Charles 11., and if, after
having held those lands fcr 200 years, they were now to
be taken from them by an act of Parliament, he must
say that such a proceeding would be a great wrong, and
a wrong of which the Government, should they have
recourse to it, would have great reason to be ashamed.
(Hear, hear.) This he would lay down as a maxim,
that no country ought to form a colony which she was
not able to defend. (Hear, hear.) The right hon.
gentlemen then referred to the evidence of Colonel
Lefroy and other authorities who .had surveyed
the Hudson Bay Company's territory, showing the
manner the company carry on their trade in the
different parts of the territory. (Hear, hear.) The
proposition or scheme for establishing a new colony
would simply, if it were carried out, place a large num,
ber of British subjects in the hands of the American Go-
vernment the first time a war between the two countries
took place. Then again, before a colony was established
there should be some reasonable prospects of its success.
To establish a colony might be matter of policy, but
success must depend on individual interests, and on com-
mercial exertions. What bona fide interest would people
have in going to the Red River settlement ? If they
established a colony there, and failed in tempting people
to proceed thither they would be doing the greatest pis-
sills mischief. It was, in his opinion, quite clear that
it was not desirable to introduce competition into the
fur trade. If they established a colony at the Red River
settlement, which was English in name and American
in spirit, they might be laying the foundation for a war
between England and America.
Mr. GILPIN said that his attention had always been
directed to the condition of the natives under the rule of
the Hudson's Bay Company rather than to the queetisn
of the monopoly or no monopoly of the company. He
was at a loss to understand the personnel of the Hud-
son's Bay Company. Its capital was undoubtedly in
very few hands. Believing that the claims of the com-
pany were illegal, he hoped the resolutions would be
adopted. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KINNAIRD, whilst he agreed with the noble
lord the member for London that the legal questicn
ought to be settled, thought with the hon. member for
Kidderminster that it was most unwise unnaturally to
foster colonisation. He denied the justness of the ale-
gations of cruelty brought against the company. Com-
paring the condition of the natives under the company
with that of those under the Americans, he was of
opinion that the former appeared in a much more favour-
able light.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE adverted to the inconsistency
between the art usnAste of the hon. member for Not-
tingham (Mr. Gilpin:) against the withdrawal f the pro-
tecting influence cf the Hudson's Bay Company, and
Lis recent obj ction to the continued presence of our
squadron on the west coast of Africa. Ile (Jr.N Fur-
tescue) contended that the natives had been treated
with the greatest consideration by the e..?rvants of the
company. The hon, and learned member for Sheffield
had, be thuughtf given a very highly coloured picture of
relations subsisting between the c ‘inpany and the
Indians. If the tie at present in force were severed
rudely he believed that the territory would he valueless
to this country. He thought that the pledge of the
Colonial Secretary that a colony should be established
in the district of the Red River, in the event of the
fai!ure of Canada doing so, a rash one. The best mode
of leading to such a settlement would be by continuing,
under ce.rtain modifications, the powers of the Hudson's
Bay Company.
Mr. C. FITZ WILLIAM maintained that the Hudson's
Bay Company had been hardly dealt with. 17, was not
for people in this country to say what lands khyuld be
colonised.
Mr: WYLD thought that the compromise proposed
by the Government, if fairly carried out, would be ac-
c,ptab:e to the Canadians and to the people of this
country.
Mr. J. D. FITZ GERALD said that the settlement
cf the legal rights of the company lay at the very thresh-
1.. old of the question. The hon. and learned member for
Sheffield and the noble lord the member for London de-
sired to act in a spirit f ju,tice and liberality towards
the Hudson's Bay Company, but before the measure el
jui-rice could be meted cut the rights of the company
Inuit be determined. Re hoped the Government would
put this branch of the question in train fcr decision.
Mr. ROEBUCK, in reply, said he thought the inte-
rest the sot j had created a sufficient justification
for having brought it forward ; but he woul.l not divide
the house on his proposition, as ho should be averse to
be thought in antagonism with the Colonial Secretary,
whose opinions, if not entirely c ;incident with hie own,
were generally in harmony with them. The honourable
and learned gentleman then replied specificali)
to the honourable rnctub, r for Kidderznin,ters
who had led the attack agai, st the resolutions.
He denied the imminence cf the danger of col-
lision with America, which the honourable member had
shadowed out as arising from the necessity of going
through a portion of America to the Red River. The
fact was that the set-lentent could be reached by British
waters. The honourable and learned member then re-
pli,d to the remarks of Mr. Labauchere, contending that
whi e civilisation was better than red civilisa. ion, and
that the question was whetlitr we should by legislation
ace lerate or retard its advane, meat.
Tne motion was then withdrawn.
THE RUSSIAN WAR AND BRITISH
PROPERTY.

Mr. CRAWFORD benel to move, " That an humble
address be present-A to her Majesty, praying that she
Hill be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Coln-
mission to inquire into the complaints made by certain
of her stf jects of the destruction of their property by her
Majesty's forces at Illeaorg„ in the Gulf of Bothnia,
during the recent war with the Emperor of Russia, as
more paiticulady set forth in memorials addressed by
:rlessrs. Mathieeon and Ritter and I‘Lessrs. Henry
Dresser aed Co., to the Lords Ci.mmissioners of the
Treasury." Premising. that the matter involved not
oil.; the intreFes of individuals, but the fair fame of this
coun'ey as a belligerent, he proceeded to state the cir-
cumstances of one of the cases, in which a quantity of
timber, only calculated for building purposes, and net
therefore contraband of war, and which was private and
partly British property, had been destroyed in 1854 by
Admiral Plurnridge. Ho characterised the transaction
as wanton and barbarous, without the slightest justifica-
tion, and in the teeth of the declared policy of cur
Government and of a proclama'ien issued by Admiral
Plornridge himself, the p'ace being quite defenceless.
Mr. ADAMS seconded the motion, He expressed
his regret that the Government had expressed its inten-
tion of opposing toe motion, and he thought that they
had arrived at that conclusion without knowing the real
facts of the case.
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped to satisfy the house that
there were two aides to the question. The G ,vernment,
he said, might have rested their opposition to the motion
on the ground that repeated applications have been made
upon the sulj,ct and rejected. The Government bad
referred the question to the law officers of the Crown,
who had given a decided opinion against the claim for
compensation. He denied that the timber, which had
been destroyed along with a large quantity of pitch and
tar by Admiral Plurnridge, was of a private na!ure ; it
was c )ntiaband of war, the timbi r being fit for the con..
B:ruction of veEsels, and no proof had been offered to the
Admiral that any part cf the property belonged to
British tn&,rehant.,.

Mr. M. GIBSON said he did not mean to argue that
these parties had a legal title to indemnity, bur, be con-
tended that they had a moral, just, and equitable claim
upon the British Government for the loss. It; was well
known that the affair was a mi.take.
Sir C. NAPIER said that Admiral Plumridge had
been perfectly right in the service ho performed. It
had been stated upon authority that 12 gunboats bad
been built at Uleaborg, and ho thought it was unfair
that this matter should be brought before the house
four years after the occurrence.
Mr. NV EGUELIN observed, that the question turned
upon this point—whether the articles were or were not
contraband of war, and all Mr. Crawford asked was a
commission to inquire into the circumstances of the
destruction of the property, and of what it consisted.
Tue SOLICITOR GENERAL remarked, that no
claim had been ma le is either of the cases till 185 d, and
in one ca,,e not till the present year ; and he asked
whether it was right to listen to applications for corn-

pensation go long after the transaction, and when it
was so d.fficult to arrive at the truth. He disputed the
claims, however, upon their merits, maintaining that
the articles destroyed w ere contraband of war.

Mr. CLAY avowed that he advised the delay of the
ellims wad after the terroinatioriot the war.

Th, inn ion was suppoittd by Mr. MALINS and Mr.
PRIG

Mr. CRA.WFO D rcplie(l.
Ividei, and the numbers were—
F. r the motion 65
._Fain-t
105
AN)rity -40
rile hensthe:i pr,:cee,.led to the orders of the day.
CONSOLIDXTED FUND (IPPROPIZIATION)
BILL.

On the mrtion that this bill be read a second time,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY calid attention to a pray, ice
which had prdvsiied of applying portions of a vote which
ha•! been given kr a particular purpose to a tota,'ly dif-
ftrent purpose. -He thertfore submitted that FUCiI au
appropriation shbuld be made by a distinct vu e, so that
the authority of this house over the l üblic money should
be strictly maintained. (I-fear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid
when they went into sorornitLe he would chow that ti e
ben; gentleman bad very much mistaken the practice