The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-30 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 80, 1868.

! the circumstance of his having no one to support him in
the views that he might have. Practically, under the
present system, which was one of election, there was in
1 the court some merchant, some gentleman, who had not
an Indian life before him, and whcoe opinions were not
altogether formed in India. He considered ,it was of
very great advantage to preserve that element in the
council, and it was of much mere importance to do so
now than it was five years ago. There had been a great
increase in our commercial intercourse with the East ;
there had been invested in railways and public works in
India not less than 30,000,0001. in the course of the last
four or five years. Capitalists were beginning to address
themselvei to India, and ho thought it advisable that
they should have in the council for India some persons
with whom the president of the council might advise on
subjects connected with commerce. In the bill of the
present Government care was taken to effect that object.
Tile noble duke had said much on the principle of elec-
tion. On every occasion on which he (the Earl of Ellen-
borough) had spoken on the future government of
India, he bad always insisted on the council being
elected. He should desire to find in that council not
only men eminent in the different services of India,
but the best commercial men who could be discovered.
He knew that, in point of fact, the Government could
not find these men. The only means of obtaining them
was by election. He saw day by day questions put about
India, exhibiting the grossest ignorance of the real state
of that country, which filled him with alarm) and what
he desired was to give to the minister who might have
the charge of India devolving upon him, a council so in-
dependent, so influential, that he might derive great
strength from their support in resisting attacks upon it.
He did not know how they were to obtain such a body
except by election. The system of nomination, however
well exercised, would not create a body which had the
same weight and influence as a body which was elected.
That was his reason for desiring to have the principle
of election carried out in this council. It was no new
opinion of his. He had always looked with a degree
of jealousy, almost morbid, on a newly nominated coun-
cil. He believed that such a council would lead to a
system of jobbing. He would not have jobbed, but he
did not know what others would do who followed him.
The object of having an elected council was to render
it impossible to make that a bad Government which they
wished to be a good Government. His object was to
lay the foundation of a government which would make
India happy, strong, and powerful, and make it so in
connection with this country. He thought that by con-
necting the council of India with some of the great cities
of England he was giving a stability and an influence to
the council which would enable the president of the
council, when he was right, to support his opinions in
Parliament. That might be wrong, but that had been
his object, and he trusted that the friends of the noble
duke, acting in the spirit in which he had spoken to-
night, would feel the absolute neces-ity to legislate on
this subject this year. Depend upon it they must not
trifle with the security of India.
Earl GREY said he was particularly anerious to follow
the noble earl, because, although there was much in his
speech in which he concurred, there was one point on
which he differed both from the noble earl and from the
noble duke—he meant as to the necessity of settling
this question of the borne government of India in the
present year. The House of Commons had considerably
increased the difficulty, but the danger of delay was
nothing compared to the danger of taking a false step.
(Hear.) If they now re-organised the home government
of India upon a wrong principle, in a manner not cal-
culated to work according to their intentions—if they
took a wrong step, it would probably be irreparable. If
he had that conviction before, he must say it had been
strengthene l by the speech of his noble friend below
him. He did not think that the subject had as yet been
so well investigated that any man, be he who he might,
could deal with it with the wisdom which it required. Let
him also say that he thought the danger of delay in re-
organising the home government of India was greatly
exaggerated, becape, after all, it was a mere question as
to the manner in which the authority ef the home
Government was to be exercised over the govern-
ment of India. At this moment the Queen's Govern-
ment was supreme. The President of the Board of
Control exercised a power so large and so cemplete
that his policy must be adopted. The noble earl told
them that ho had acted mast harmoniously with the
directors, that he had no difficulty with them. Now the
only alteration effected by any bill he might introduce
would be some modification of the manner in which the
Cabinet of the day would act on the Indian Govern-
ment. They would not touch materially the constitu-
tion of the Government in India. The people in India
looked exclusively to the Governor-General, and knew
nothing whatever of the authority which was exercised
over him. They were utterly ignorant of the machinery
by which the Court of Directors and the President of
the Board of Control impressed their views on the Go-
vernor-General. All they looked to was the Governor-
General, who, whether a bill was passed or not, would
continue in their eyes to be the ruler of India. There-
fore, he did not apprehend any serious difficulty in India 1
from delay. He did not deny that there would be some.
He did not deny that the introduction of the measures
made it more difficult to pause than if those measures
had not been brought forward, but still he thought the
difficulty was greatly exaggerated, and that it was
nothing at all to the danger arising from precipitation.
Then, he ventured to say that the principle on which
the home government of India should beeconstituted had
hitherto been very little considered, either by the public
or by Parliament. A. few months ago there ran through
the country a sortof general ory,to substitute the power
of the Crown for the power of the East India Company.
That cry rose more from passion than from sober con-
sideration. What people really meant at that time was to
transfer the government of India to the Cabinet of the
day. By the constitution of this country it was abso-
lutely necessary that the head of the Indian department
should hold his office by the uncertain tenure cf a Par-
liamentary majority. It was therefore quite impossible
that the man who held that situation should be trained
to it by long Indian experience ; and to expect a person
of that sort to govern India without assistance, or even
to exercise that control over local administration which
was necessary, seemed to he absurd. He himself had
the honour for five years and a half of holding the offics
of Secretary of State for the Colonies. Many of the
colonies bad representative assemblies, which prevented
the necessity as to them of superintendence as to local
' affairs; but even with that assistance it was impossible
for him to attend to the many and complicated affairs of
all the colonies. India, however, was very much more
extensive than all the colonies combined, and the Secre-
tary of State for India must be as-isted by competent
advisers to exercise effectual control. He quite admitted
that the Imperial Government mu-4 !n the end be su.
preme, but there was a moral control which could only
be exercised by a powerful and thoroughly independent
body, (Hear.) Hitherto the Court of Directors had
been such a b )dy. When he presented the petition be
called their lordship' attention to the fact that in many
cases the East India directors had, when they had found
justice on their side, successfully resisted the wishes of
the Minister of the Crown. He thought it abso-
lutely necessary that the body which was about to be
associated with the minister for India should have
that power. The twit things, responsibility and
power, went together. Even Parliament itself
wanted to have some moral control over the Govern-
ment. The interests of England and India were not
always the rams. There was a well-known case, the
war with Persia—net the recent war, but that of 1849
Their lordships might think that the cost of the war
should he a burden on India, and not on the people of
England. It was essential, therefore, that there should
be some body which was able to exercise au independent
authority, which would be able to state the case of India
in a manner that would demand attention, and to insist
upon justice being done. But how was that to be accom-
plished by the bill of the late government. They were to
have a council of eight persons named by the crown, Only
for eight years, two of them going out annually, so there
would always be in the council two persons going out,
and anxious to be re-appointed, and two who had just
come in, and therefore there would be no check on the
minister. He could not c nacur with the noble sail,
however, in what he said as to the principle of election.
An election was an excellent means of obtaining the opinion
of the electors on matters in which they were concerned,
but he was quite at a loss to know how the electors of
the City of London, for instance, could be expected to
Make a wise choice of a parson to administer the affairs
of India. If they had a numerous constituency of that
sort an election could not be won except by management
out of doors, and which would be liable to abuse. The
great fault of the existing arrangement was the mode of
electing the directors. He thought it worth considering
whether the best course would notibe to adopt avowedly,
and with toms precautions, some system of self-electon,
but subject to the check that the nomination should not
take effect without the approbation of the crown and the
names being laid before both Houses of Parliament.
There were various considerations connected wit's this
subject, which was not yet ripe for legi-lation. It should
be farther discussed not only in Parliament but out of
doors, and hereafter, he believed, it might be dealt
with much more satisfactorily than it could be at
present. Therefore he for One rejoiced at the great
change of opinion which had taken place on this subject.
A little while ago the public seemed to be in favour of a
sudden change in the form of government. That bad
passed away, and it was a very remarkable circernwance
that both the late Government and the present Govern-
moot, in introducing their respective hills for the aboli-
tion of the Eeet, India Company, had tried which could
go furthest in praising that body. And what was the
prospect of legislating this session t Tnoy were now at
the end of April, and the resolutions on which they were
to found a bill were still to be discussed in the House of
Comm 11% and to be discussed in this state of things,
that they bail the present Government proposing one bill,
the head of the present Government proposing another
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This wee quite a chaos of opinion on the subject.
Could they suppose that, in such a stzite of things, they
could legislate on this subject, with that deliberation
which WAS desirable ? He thought that the sooner Go-
vernment abandoned all i
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noble earl said that the present state of things with there-
gard to the futive of India was the fault of the late G-
overnment, be must be pertnitLed to say that his noble
friend was greatly mistaken. (Hear.) The noble earl
seemed to think that the late G werninent had hastily
framed their bill on this subject, Now, he had not had the
great experience of some noble lords, but so far as hia ex-
perience went, he roust say that he never knew a bill so
fully considered as the bill of the late Government on India,

The noble lord (Ellenborough) said that he was always in
favour of an elective council. But in a speech which he
made in that house some time sic he had himself stated
that he should prefer the nominee system. (Ilear.) This
was not an old but a late opinion of the noble earl. In
this very year he bad said that the members of the Bard
of Directors which were nominated by the Government
were worth all the rest.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—That was a bad
constituency ; I provide a good one.
Earl GRANVILLE—WeII, then, it was very strange
thati the noble earl's colleagues should have so soon
abandoned that constituency.

Lord ELLENBOROUG-11---We have not abandoned
the constituenciPs to which I refer.

Earl GRANVILLE—ReaIIy it was very difficult to
follow the noble earl, because in this bill there were so
many constitueuciet all in ex stence at one time. The
noble earl had to-night spoken very highly in favour of
his commercial constituency, and bad stated that great
results would come of availing oneself of their knowledge.
But he (L,rd Granville) remembered that some time
since the noble earl had expressly stated that a council
for India should be well versed in Indian matters, and
he had then asked triumphantly, "Would a man go to
his bankers for information on India ?" (Rear, hear.)
it seemed that the noble earl had forgotten to-
night the statements which he had made on former oc-
casions. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of
going on, he certainly agreed with the noble earl on that
point, for much had now been done towardsthe assump-
tion of the government of India by the Crown, and to
let it go out to that country that the intentions of t>e•
Government had been thwarted at home would be
fraught with great danger to our Indian empire. (Hear,
hear.) There were many other points upon which he
could have addressed their lordships, but at that late
hour be would not venture to weary them. (Hear, hear.)
Ile would only say that he quite believed in the honour
and public spirit of the noble earl opposite--(hear, hear)
—but he must add, that a more dangerous bill than th•
one he had submitted to the house it was impossible to
conceive. (Seer.)

Lord MCaNTEAGLE pointed out to the house that it
was highly inconvenient that their lordships should pro-
ceed with a discussion like the present, when no measure
was before them. He deprecated the discussion of this
question with the meagre information now before the
house. When on former occasions less changes than the
presint were contemplated, greater care bad been taken
to ob'ain conclusive and reliable information. This was
the most difficult solution of the Indian question that
was ever presented to them. Ile believed that the Go-
vernment would come at last to the postponement of the
question, and would not be sorry to arrive at that con-
clusion. He did not believe there was any feeling in the
country in favour t.f legislation. Bill after bill might be
introduced, but he was convinced the result would show
the impracticability Of legislation.
The Marquis of CLANRICA.RDE said hie boble
friend appeared to forget that the pending legislation was
but a preliminary step. What was required was the en-
tire reorganisation of the government of India, and the
filet step towards that was to get rid, of tie Court of
D.rectors, who had hitherto prevented measures of im-
provement from being carried out in India. The cry of
Indian reform had been called a senseless cry ; it was
not a senseless cry ; it arose from the fact that the Bri-
tish felt that they had not derived such advantages from
their magnificent possessions in India as they ought to
have done, and could not do so while the present system
of government continued. The almost unanimous opi-
nion of the public in favour of a change was founded en
a conviction that India hat& been greatly neglected, that
its resources had not been developed, and that the coun-
tee, bad been kept in a disgraceful condition. The com-
mercial-interests would not stand any longer the non-
development of the products of Indie and the want of
efforts to bring them to the aid of onr manufacturers.
There must be changes in the administration of the laws,
fiscal changes, changes in the military organisation; and
were these, he asked, changes to be entrusted to the
hands of those who had brought about the present state
of things? It was now 12 months ago since he proposed
an alteration of the system, and he hoped, after what
had recently occurred, there would be no further delay.
The metton was then agreed to.
Their lordships adjourned at half-past 10.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)
TUE ATTORNEY-GENERAL v. LORD VIVIAN

AND THE PRINCE OF WALES.
Mr. A. SHIM moved fur papers relating to an award
in the cause of " The Attorney-General v. Lord Vivian
and the Prince of Wales."

The motion,afterSO;e remarks from Mr. G. HAMIL.
TON, was ❑egatived.

NON-PAROCHIAL REGISTERS.
On the motion of Mr. HAMILTON, leave was given
to bring in a bill for amending the act concerning non-
parochial registers.

voltrzy tobritto

SUN OFFICE, Seven o'Clock.

SALISBURY R?iCES.—(This Day.)

[BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.]
601. HANDICAP PLATE.
Flying Englishman
Pinsticker
Madame Rachel
Six ran.
LONGFORD CASTLE STAKES.

Bouquet
Snap
Portia

LONGLEA.T STAKES,

Stapleton
Schiedam
Cymba colt
Eight ran.
QUEEN'S PLATE.

Schiedam
Kelpie
Supple Jack
Five ran.
WILTON PARK STAKES.

Joyeuse
Conjuror
Truth colt .....
Six ran.
RAILWAY PLATE,
Rip Van Winkle
Odd Fellow
Joskins

'3

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(This Evening.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the following
bills were read a ,ecantl time: —The Westminster Palace
Hotel Company, and Parley's Estate.
INDIA..
In reply to the Earl GRANVILLE,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said the papers
referred to were six in number, and there was not
the least objection to their production. The Govern-
ment had determined to send out commissioners—one
from the Treasury, one from the Board of Trade, and
one from the Customs—who were to repair to the seve-
ral Presidencies, and each was to ,be 'accom-
panied by a secretary, who should be a clerk
of the Indian Revenue Department. The object
of thecommi-sioners wou d be to look into the whole
system of accounts and revenue in India, and then to
make a report to Government at home, which would
then take what steps they thought fit. There was no
intention whatever of interfering with the powers of the
Governor-General, but by the aid of the commissioners
it was sought to obtain information which could not
otherwise be obtained. The noble earl could have no
conception of the infantile state of the natives of India
with respect to keeping accounts.
OATHS BILL.
On the motion of Lord LYNDHURST, this bill was read
a third time and pissed.
TRANSFER OF LANDS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
LAW Oil' PROPERTY AMENDMENT ACT.
The order of the day for the commital of this bill was
read and discharged, and the bill was ordered to be
referred to a select committee.
TRANSFER OF ESTATES SIMPLIFICATION
BILL.
The order of the day for the third reading of this bill
was read and discharged, and this bill was also ordered
to be referred to a select committee.
EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL.
This bill was reported, with amendments.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(This Evening.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Acton's Naturalisation Act Amendment all was
read a third time and passed.
The following bills were further considered and or-
dered to be read a third time :—E est Suffolk. Railway ;
and London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway (Capi-
tal, &c.)
TEES CONSERVANCY.
Mr. HUDSON moved that the return ordered on the
11th day of February last, relative to the Tees Causer-
vancy, be made forthwith.
After some remarks from Mr. Cayley, Mr. Setheron.
Estcourt, and Mr. Fitzroy, the motion was agreed to.
CADETSHIPS.
Col. FORRESTER, the Controller of the Household,
appeared at the bar with her Majesty's answer to an ad-
dress
voted to her Majesty on the subject of cadet-
ships in the Royal Engmeers and Royal Artillery,
which he real to the heuee. Her Majesty's reply was as
follows—"I have received your dutiful address praying
that no alterations he made in the principle of the existing
arrangements regulating the admission of cadets into the
Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers, and I have given
directions that the subject shall be carefully considered."•
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
INDIA..
Sir E. COPELAND gave notice that he should, on
the house being in committee on the Chancellor of
the Exchequer's resolutions relative to India, move
that the three first resolutions be postponed until the
house had decided on the form of the councel to be named,
the nature of its powers. and also, that he should move
that the council should have powers of separate action,
the appointment of their own chairman, and the in-
dicting of despatches.
THE CADETSHIPS, &c.
Mr. VIVIAN gave notice that ho should on
Monday ask the uoble lord the member for Tiver
ton if the minute sanctioning the recent alteration
at Sandhurst and Woolwich was submitted to the late
Government, and received their approval.
CONSPIRING TO MURDER.
Mr. H. BLAND gave notice of his intention
to introduce a bill for amending the law relating to
eenspiracies and solicitations to murder in Ireland.
(Hear, bear.)
INCOME-TAX.
Mr. Alterman COPELAND moved for a return
stating the names of the parishes or places in which a re-
assessment has been made under the Income Tax Act
since the imposition of the tax in 1842, by reason of the
default of collectors, and showing the_amount of such re-
assessment in each case, and the year in which it was
made.—Agreed to.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
Mr. DEE DES moved for copies of a report, dated
the 21st day of January 1858, made by the Estates Com-
mittee of the Ecclesiastical Commission on the subject of
local claims upon property vested in the commission •
and of the minute of the resolution of the Board, of the
11th day of February, 1858, having reference thereto.
—Agreed to.
THE MILITIA.
In answer to a question from Mr. LABOUCIIRRE,
Mr. WALPOLE said it was not intended to call the
militia out for training before the 30th June, the usual
time for so doine.
MR. JAMES, Q.C., AND DR. BERNARD.
Mr. HUNT asked the S,cretary of State for the Home
Department whether his attention had been called to the
report in the papers of yesterday of a meeting held on
the 28th inst. at St. Martin's-hall, in aid of the "Press
Prosecution Defence Fund, in which one of her Majesty's
counsel was present, and to have taken part in the pro-
ceedings, and also, whether it was competent for Queen's
Counsel to refuse to hold a brief fur the Crown in a State
prosecution.
Mr. WALPOLE said my attention had not been
called to the report in question b fore the hon. member
gave notice of his question. I then, undoubtedly, sent
for the newspapers to see whatwas reported to have taken
place at that meeting, and I need Lot say that I read it
with the utmost astonishment. (Hear, hear.) Since
that time I have been informed by a gentleman of the
house, and a friend of Mr. James, twat, Mr. James did
not attend the meeting in compenv with Dr. Bernard,
but only as an auditor, and was called on to the ptatf,rm
without previous notice, and, I am glad to add, that he
states the report referred to is incorrect. With refer-
ence to that part of the question whether a brief was
offered to Mr. James from the Crown, and whether it is
competent for her Majesty's counsel to refuse to hold a
brief fur the Crown in a State prosecution, I have only
this plain statement of facts to make. First, I have to
state that a Queen's Couns,-1 cannot act in a Crown pro-
secution without licence from the Crown given for that
purpose ; and, sec ,ndly, the Attorney-General wishing
the a,is'ktanca of such criminal lawyers as he thought
advisable in conducting the prosecution of the Crown iu
the late State prosecutions, applied to Mr. James,
through the solicitor to the Treasury, for his assistance,
to which that gentleman replied try letter, which. I now
hold in my hand. He states in his letter---" I have
been retained by the defendant, and I have had consulta-
tions in the case with the counsel and attornies engaged,
and I presume, under these circumstances, the Attorney-
General will not insist on my services." (Cheers.) Now,
I think it right to brine itclearly under the notice ef the
house, as staternints have gone forth to the public
totally contrary to that impression, and which
ought not to be left on the min II:of the public
wish reference to these proceediugs—stateinonts
which I hope are incorrect—that Mr. James stated that
he had rejected a retainer from the Crown in the late
State prosecutione becael4e he believed an obselete act•
of Parliament was sought to be put in f irce to please a •
foreign despot—to bring under the notice of the house
the correspondence that passed between Mr. James and the
solicit )r tothe Treasury, in reference to his defending Dr.
Bernard in the late State prosecution, and I will read the
answer of the Solicitor to the Treasury, given with my
complete sanction, knowledge, and concurrence, to Mr.
James's letter, which I think will show the house that
every possibe opportunity .vas intended at that time to
be offered by the Crown to Dr. Bernard to have such
counsel as he chose to defend him on his trial. (Hear.)
our. Greenwood, the Solicitor to the Treasury, replied to
Mr. James's letter as- follows :--" I have shown 3 co] r

letters to the Attorney-General, and be desires me to
say that he was not aware you had been retained for
Dr. Bernard's trial, still lees that you had conferred
with his counsel and solicitors. He thinks
must be of great disadvantage to the prisoner
now to be deprived of your assistance, acid
would give him just cause of complaint, and there-
fore you ought to be at liberty to go on in his behalf."
(Hear.) I will now read to the house Mr. James's
answer to this letter which I think will satisfy the house
that there must be some strange error or inaccuracy in
the report referred to. Mr. James says, in reply,
" I thank you for your note and I feel the com-
pliment paid to me by the Attorney-General." (Hear,
hear.) I wi'l only add the licence for Mr. James to
defend Dr. Bernard was immediately given, aed I hope
when this plai❑ statement goes forth to the country the
people will see that the Crown on no occasion in this
kingdom deprives a prisoner of the assistance of any
learned counsel he may desire to have to defend him on
his trial (Hear, hear.)
CO M MUN IC ATION BETWEEN BAYSWATER
AND SOUTH KENSINGTON.
Mr. MACKINNON asked whether there was any
intention to accommodate the public by opening a com-
munication between Bayswater and South Kensington ;
and if so, in what mannet?

Lord J. MANNERS said the cost of such a commu-
nication would be about 60,0001., and he was not pre-
pared to ask Parliament to grant such an outlay for that
purpose.

EXECUTION IN CHINA.
Mr. ROBERTSON said that in the overland Friend
of China of the 12th of March, 1858, there was an
account of the execution of a woman at Canton, with
many horrid details. He asked the Under-Secretary for
Foreign Affairs if such executions took place under the
sentence of any tribunal under our official superintend-
ence, and if they were carried into effect with or without
foreign official sanction ?
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said her Majesty's Govern-
ment had received ❑o information from Lord Elgin of
the character referred to. Of course if such information
came to their knowledge it would be their duty to use
their best ende6.vours to prevent i-s recurrence.