The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON TUESDAY EVENING,

ancient immemorial law of England that peers had no
right whatever to interfere ,vith elections, and they never
bad voted at them. (Oh !) Noble lords had several times
tendered their names, but they had never been accepted
by the revising barristers, The resolution of the House of
Commons was, therefore, only a declaration of the law.
With regard to the propoi ml, therefore, to proceed on
the resolution of the Hon se of Commons, it had always
met with his most vio7,ent opposition ; and about this
time last year he had left :his circuit to come to town and
protest against it. if Emelt a course had been followed, he
should have had no hesitation in directing juries from his
judgment-seat to disrega rd the Commons' resolution,
But if the bill were passed the same authority would be
given to the resolution as i t it were a portion of the eta.
tuteitself. (Hear.) He should recommend their lordships
to content themselves with the present measure, to let
the other bill drop, and nex t year to repeal the oath of
abjuration. That oath wa a never thought of till the
time of William 111., and it I was only intended for the
security of the new dynasty. At the present time, how
ever, there was no one that lid not regard with loyalty
and veneration the dynasty upon the throne, and he saw
no reason why they should c oettinue the oath. (Hear.)
Lord LYNDHURST said tt gat so far as he understood
the amendments promised b y his noble friend, the bill
would be in substance preci rely the same as that which
he had himself introduced. With regard to the present
bill, certain alterations in it would be absolutely neces-
sary. He could not conceive that the noble and gallant
earl vas the author of the rams are. It must have pro-
ceeded from some other source. His noble and gallant
friend would have gone right •to the maik, instead of
adopting the circui,•us and in volved language of this
bill. He presumed his noble fri end had consulted some
professional a'teser—some gentl amen who had been in
the habit of being paid by the r iumber of words he em-
ployed. (A. laugh.) This learned gentleman had abso-
lutely drawn.the billiwithout taki tg the trouble of looking
at the oath of abjuration. The clause proposed to omit
the words, " and I make this declaration on the true
faith of a Christian," words which did not exist in the
oath of abjuration, but which this learned person had
copied from the bill that had core up to them from the
House of Commons. (Hear.) He (Lord Lyndhurst)
had drawn his pen through all the words in the clause
that were superfluous, and the result was as follows :--
" Either House of Parliament may resolve that any per-
son who professes the Jewish religion, in taking such
oath may omit the words on the true faith of a Chris-
tian,'..and that the taking and subscribing such oath shall
have the same effect as the taking and subscribing the
oath of abjuration in the form now required by law.'
(Hear.) In reducing the clause to this form he had
struck out four lines of rubbish at the beginning ; then
two lines more; then four lines more; then two lines
more ; and then two lines more—all of which answered
no end whatever, except to extend the clause. (Hear.)
After a few words from the Earl of LrcAN, who
was understood to agree to the bill now going through
;,ze 'e qr,!cr tint the amendments pro-
posed by the noble and learned lord might he printed,
The bill passed through committee, and was ordered
to be recommitted on Thursday.
In answer to a question from a NOBLE LORD,
Lord LYNDHURST said he had postponed his' own
bill sine die.

The County Courts District Bill passed through com•
mittee.

The Chinese Passengers Act (1855) Amendment Bill
also passed through committee.
The report of amendments to the Hainault Forest
(Allotment .of Commons) Bill was brought up and
agreed to.

The rcport of amendments to the Durham County
Palatine Jurisdiction Bill was likewise brought up and
agreed to.

Tee County Management Bill was read a third time
and passed.

Ttisir lordships then adjonpned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SrEAKEtt took the chair at four o'clock.

NEW ME ÜBE R.
Mr. Coxs took the oaths and his seat for East Nor-
folk.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
—Clyde Navigation, Limerick and Castle Connell Rail-
way, Manchester South Junction and Altrincham Rail•
way (No. 2), Tees Conservancy, and Warrington and
Stockport Railway.
QUEEN'S COLLEGES (IRELAND).
Mr. FAGAN asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether the report of the commissioners appointed to
inquire into the state and condition of the Queen's
Colleges would be laid on the table of the house during
the present session ?
Lord NAAS said it would ; but he feared, from what
he had heard, it would not be till almost its close.
INDIA RILL—SELECT COMMITTEE.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL gave notice that on the
bringing up of the report on the India Bill he should
move the omission of clauses 27 and 2S, relating to the
secret committee. (Hear, hear.)
TRAFFIC THROUGH ST. JAMES'S PARK.
Major SIBTHORP asked the First Commissioner of
Works whether (in the event of there being no vald ob-
jection) he would take early steps for promoting the
convenience of the public, by permitting private car-
riages and public cabs, under the same restrictions as are
now in farce between the Marlborough and Buckingham
Palace Gates, to go through St. James's-park, and out
at the south-eastern gate, near Storey's-gate, into the
Birdcage-walk f
Lord J. MANNERS said he bad no power in the
matter. After the decided opinion expressed by the
committee who sat two years since on the subject, he
thought it would be inexpedient for him to recommend
further facilities for traffic through the Park.
• SUPPLY OF GUANO.
Mr. SCOTT asked the Secretary of State for the
Colonies whether any recent communication had been
received by her Majesty's Government on the subject
of guano on the Kooria IVlooria Islands : and whether
there was any objection to lay on the table of the house
the papers relating thereto, in continuation of those pre-
sented in August last.
Sir E. B. LYTTON said recent communications had
been received in reference to this subject, which he would
lay on the table of the house.
THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT.

Mr. S. WORTLEY gave notice that on the first sup-
ply night he should call attention to the proposed arrange-
ments for the erection of a monument to the memory of
the late Duke of Wellington.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. (No. 3) BILL.

On clause 33, a postponed clause,
Mr. MONSELL called attention to the omission of
the continuance of Addisoombe College as a place for
training cadets.
Lord STANLEY said the words had been purposely
omitted from the bill, because it was thought better to
lay down the principle of the bill, and leave the details
to he decided on hereafter more at leisure. He ex-
pressed the opinion of the Government that it Was de-
sirable those who went out as cadets should have served
some time in a military college, and he believed Addis.
combe had admirably answered the purposes for which
it was established.
After some remarks from an HON. MEMBER,

The clause, after some amendment, was agreed to.
Ciause 35, a new clause, provides that one-tenth of
the whole number of persons to be recommended in one
year shall be given to the sons of persons who have
served in India.

After some remarks from Mr. BLACKBURN and Mr.
Mat as,
Col. SYKES said the principle involved in the clause
had been often attempted by the East India Directors,
but the difficulty was of ascertaining who had the best
c:aims, and it had in consequence broken down, and
been Aandoned by them. There was no necessity for
the clause. The patronage might be left to the council
unbiassed and untrammelled in any manner how they
should dispense it.

Mr. V. SMITH said this clause would establish here-
ditary offices, if carried out universally. It would be a
good principle to carry out in cases where men had dis-
tinguished themselves, and he suggested an alteration in
the clause to that effect.

Sir E. Colabrooke, Sir F. Smith, Sir H. RawHawn,
and Col. Sykes having addressed the committee on the
clause,
Lord STANLEY defended its retention in the bill.
He apprehended there would be no difficulty in carrying
the clause into effect other than that the number
of deserving claimants might be greater than the
vancancies to be filled up. That was the case
in almost every case where patronage had to be
dispensed. The way to get over the difficulty he
had referred to was by adopting a limited competi-
tion in such cases. Since he had been c.innec:ed with
Indian affairs he had seen sufficient to be convinced
there were a class of Indian officers who would look
upon this clause as the most valuable reward they could
look forward to for their children.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE suggested the words after
served in India " with distinction" should be added.
The CHANCELLOR of the ErCHEQUER said it
was objectionable to limit it in the manner proposed ; it
would be better to leave it to the discretion of the com-
mittee.

The e!ause was then added to the bill.
On clause 35, a new clause, providing that all persons
to be recommended for military cadetships shall be no-
minated by the Secretary of State and members of the
Council, so that out of 11 nominations the Secretary of
State shall have two, and each member shall have one,
but no person sonorainated shall be recommended un-
less the nomination be approved of by the Secretary of
State in Council,
Sir E. PERRY opposed the clause.
Lord STANLEYidefended the claim.
Sir U. ItAwraNsos and Mr. LOWE opposed the clause.
After some remarks from Cal. SYKES, the committee
divided. Tne numbers were—
For the clause ............................. 165
Against it .... 91

Majority
The dance was added to the bill
The Ninaining (-.eparate) clauses were then agraed ts.
Mr. ELLIOT proposed to bring up a clause. He
feared chat as the bill was now framed it would be im-
possible to keep up the proper relative proportion in the
council, and therefore he proposad that a clause be in-
serted, remedying the difficulty.
Lord STANLEY opposed the ciauqe. There was
just as great a chance of the elected members obtaining
the majority as the crown nominees. He did not wish
to see any distinction kept up between the two classes
of Dm:ubei a .li. ca.•mert, of their election.
Mr. V. SMITH said that the intention bf
was that there should be eight nominated and seven
elected members, and to preserve that proportion was
the object of his hon. friend's clause. At present there
were nominated and elected members in the Court of

74

Directors, and he had never heard of there being any
invidious distinction kept up between them.
Mr. ELLIOT said that the first elected member that
died would cause the numbers to become nine and six,
which would be contrary to the intentions of Parlia-
ment,
Sir F. SMITH said that the second election would
neutralise the inequality pointed out by the honourable
member.
Lord J. RUSSELL supported the clause, and recom-
mended the noble lord to consent to its adoption.
The clause was put, and negatived without a division.
Mr. CAMPBELL moved the insertion of the follow
ing clause :—" That with a view to enabling the Secre-
tary of State for War and the Commander-in-Chief of the
army for the time being to have proper cognisance of the
constitution and organisation of our army in India, they
are hereby appointed ex-officio members of the council
for India."
Lord STANLEY opposed the clause as premature.
The whole subject would be referred to a commission of
inquiry during the recess, and the result ,of their labours
would be placed before the house at the commencement
of the next session.
Mr. V. SMITH asked whether there would be any
objection to laying a copy of the commission on the
table.
Lord STANLEY would take some opportunity of
explaining the nature of the commission.
The clangs was withdrawn.
Mr. FAGAN begged to call the attention of the com•
mittee to the claims of Colonel Frith, of the Bengal
army, to compensation for pecuniary losses sustained by
him in connection with a regulation relating to the native
army of Oude. He had a clause on the paper which
would explain to the committee what the nature of Col.
Frith's claim was. By a treaty passed in 1781 the East
India Company agreed to withdraw their troops, and to
allow the native prince to sub ititute his own troops, pro-
vided they were commanded by a British officer. Colonel
Frith received the appointment, acd there was a consider-
able sum of money due to him in relation to it. He was in-
duced to raise a sum of money in order to liquidate arrears
of pay that were due to the troops, and the object of the
clause which be (Mr. Fagan) begged to submit to the con-
sideration of the committee was, to obtain for him that
compensation to which he was justly entitled. The sum
due to Col. Frith for the money he bad raised was about
30,000/ , and that suns was admitted to be due to him.
He had shown that the debt was fairly and honestly due,
and he contended that the time had come for the just
consideration of the claim. The case should be disposed
of one way or the other, and the best mode of doing so
was by the introduction of the clause he now proposed.
Lord STANLEY declined going into the details of
the case brought forward by the bon. member, inasmuch
as it would be impossible to do justice to it in a discus-
sion on the bill. He admitted that there might be some
valid claims against the former Government of Oude,
and that the transference of that government to the East
India Company did carry with it a certain degree of re-
sponsibility ; but he submitted that the settlement of
LlaVat3 end Use tritionnle by which such settlement
should take place, could nut propeily ni a-
sure of this kind—to provide for the future government
of India. Nor did he believe that the proposal of the
hon. member was the best for carrying out the object he
had in view. This class of claims, he believed, would be
best inquired into by a commission upon the spot, and
he understood that there was au idea to appoint such a
commission. In that case it would be obviously incon-
venient to have another tribunal here to take up any in•
dividnal case, or any number of cases. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT remarked that though it had often
been admitted that some tribunal should be established
to deal with these cases, no attempt had been made to
create such a tribunal—and the noble lord, though he
admitted the want, gave no distinct pledge that it would
be supplied. He (Ur. Bright) did not think a com-
mission would be the most- suitable tribunal, which he
though ought rather to be formed of a certain number
of judges of the land acting under the responsibility
of their high office. But as it appeared to him, the
government of India had always been afraid of any
such tribunal being constituted, because they knew that
there were many oases in which injustice had been done,
and that they might have to refund large sums of
money, which was just what they were most anxious to
avoid.
Mr. GLADSTONE, so far from blaming the East
India Company for resisting the claim referred to by the
hon. member, considered that they were entitled to great
credit for having, regardless of personal consequences,
resisted that and other similar claims in the interest of
the people of India.
After a few words from Mr. V. SMITH and Colonel
STKES,

Mr:FAGAN consented to withdraw the clause, and
withdrawn it was accordingly.
Mr. GLADSTONE and Mr. D. SEYMOUR postponed the
clauses of which they had given notice until the bring-
ing up of the report.
The preamble was then agreed to, and the house re-
sumed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply
to Lord J. Russell, stated that the report would be
taken tomorrow (this) afternoon, and that the bill would
be reprinted in the evening.
UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the question that this bill, as amended, be con-
sidered,
Col. SYKES moved that the magistrates and council
of the city of Aberdeen be heard by themselves or by
counsel against the bill.
The LORD ADVOCATE said, when he (the Lord
Advocate) had the honour of being made Lord Rector
of the University of Aberdeen, he was esker), as any
person occupying that position would have been asked,
what were his opinions with regard to the union. To
that question he replied by saying that he had only
turned his attention to it in a very general way; but,
from what he understood of it, he was inclined to the
opinion that the universities should be united, and the
colleg,s separated. He had occasion to study the mat-
ter subsequently, however, with the view of being ex-
amined before a committee, and he then came to an
opposite conclusion, though that which he had mentioned
to the house was really that which he formed at the time
to his appointment as rector, with the best information
which he then po sessed. He would, then, leave it to
the house to say whether he had not acted more honestly
in acting upon the opinion which, upon mature reflec-
tion, he had been led to form, than in continuing to pro-
fess that which he no longer thought. (Hear,. hear.)
The motion was negatived without a division.
Mr. GLADSTONE moved to insert before clause 15
the following words :—" If her Majesty shall be pleased,
at any time within the duration of the commission, to
grant a charter for the founation of a National Uni-
versity for Scotland, the Scottish Universities named in
this act or any of them, may, if they shall think fit, sur-
render to the Commissioners the power of examining
for and of granting degrees, with or without the excep-
tion of degrees in theology, and to become colleges, one
or more, as the case may be, of the said National
University."
The motion was agreed 'to.
Mr. DUNLOP moved a clause for relieving the prin.
' cipals and certain professors from their exemption from
the operation of the act of 1153.
The LORD ADVOCATE objected to the clause as
it now stood, but would not have done so had the hon.
gentleman proposed that the question, as regarded
Aberdeen, should be left to the commissioners. (Hear.)
He did not think his hon. and learned friend the mem-
ber for Greenock would come forward to disturb the
arrangement that had been made under the act, unless
he had strong reasons for doing so.
After a few words from Mr. DUNLOP and Lord
DUNIAN,
Lord ELCHO said a compromise was made on the
former occasion when the subject of tests was before
the house, which, he thought, should not now be dis-
turbed ; and he woud therefore support the views of the
learned lord.

Mr. BLACKBURN entertained a similar opinion.
After a few words from the LORD ADVOCAT/C in ex-
planation, the house divided, when the numbers were—
For the clause ...
Against it 5B
Majority for the clause —24
The clause was then agreed to, and was ordered to be
added to the bill.

Mr. DUNLOP then moved the insertion of another
clause to the effect that no distinction should hencefor-
ward be recognised among the professors of Glasgow
University.
Mr. BLACKBURN hoped the house would not agree
to this c'auso.

Mr. BUCItANAN said the change recommended by
his hon, and learned friend (Mr. Dunlop) was one quite
in accordance with the feelings of the citizens of Glas-
iocv, who were deeply interested Fir the prosperity of the
University.
The LORD ADVOCATE supported the clause be-
cause it went on the principle of putting, in future, all
the professors of colleges on the same footing, and t'ar,t
would have a great effect of removing heartburnings and
Jealousies.

- The clatte was then agreed to, and added to the bill.
On the clause being proposed, appointing the number
of the commission,
Mr. CAIRD moved that the name of Mr. Dunlop, the
member for Greenock, be added to the list.
After Rome discussion the name was inserted.
Col. SYKES, in page 9, clause 16, moved to insert
"that a faculty of arts being such as shall afford a course
of education sufficient to qualify students to be examined
for degrees in arts, shall ho maintained in each of the
said King's College and Marisehal College."
After a fee, observations from Lord HADDO,
Toe LORD ADVOCATE said that the difference
between the clauses as they stood and this amendment
was very small indeed. Toe Clauses provided that the
commissioners should determine the number of pro-
' fessorr, with a discretion as to what was necessary in
other cases, of which this was one. He thought it was
better to leave thir to the discretion of the comruissioners.
He must, therefore, oppose the motion.
The house then divided—
Fur the amendment .. 47
Against it 142
Majority
Mr. BAXTER moved the following proviso to the
clause :—" Provided also, that it shall not be lawful for
the Commies'' nere to apply any portion of such moneys
for the salaries of principals or professors required to
subscribe a religious test, and not included iu the pro-
visions of the 16th and 17th Victoria, chap. 89."
Mr. ELLICE, jun., defied the ingenuity of any man
to say there was anything ,unfair in the bill new before
the house. It was, iu his opinion, a bill entirely free
front all sectarian character, and was free, also, from
anything whatever of prejudice. (Hear, hear.) He
should, therefore, meet the proviso of his hon. friend
~ith his most decided opposition. He certainly saw a
gr.wing t tTisolnaical choirs in this
house, as in the case of Ireland, and LittviLg
them, to be consistent, he felt that he could not support 1
any distinct vote for them in this case ; but he, never.