The Sun.
London, England, 1867-03-19 00:00:00

61 those who by the laws we propose are qualified to
vote, and I do not think it is our business to act the part
of electioneering agents and make estimates, always of
the most speculative character, as to the amount of per-
sons who we think will have a vote. That is not the
business of Ministers in Parliament ; we are to see what,

under the laws of this country, is the opportunity
afforded of voting. And allow me to remind the house
/of the tone of the arguments always used by those who
are great promoters of an increased franchise.
They are always counting the number of the population,
that there are so many millions of the population who
have no vote at all. Well, now, I say that it is the busi-

. _
tress of the House of Commons to ascertain as far as they

can the number who under these laws will be admitted,
and not the number who may be tempted to register their

suffrage. Their business is to pass laws under which they
can safely determine the classes upon whom for the good
of the commonwealth the suffrage may he conferred. I say
that under the present arrangement there is not a man, be
lie a ratepayer under £lO, or a compound householder, who
may not be qualified under the bill which 1 am now asking
leave to introduce to exercise the suffrage. The whole of
the 723,000 are qualified. It is their business, if they
choose, to invest themselves with that responsible privi-
lege. Under the new borough franchises, to which I must
afterwards revert, the number of voters will be 68,000.
As to the number of direct tax-payers who probably

would vote in boroughs, the public departments have no
means of offering to the house any recent information upon

the subject, and it would probably take months to obtain
it ; but the number would be very considerable. I should
think myself, forming an estimate and making due allow-
ance for the increase of property and assessed taxpayers,

probably at the rate of 23 per cent., since Mr. Macaulay's
returns were made to the house, I should think the number
that would be qualified in boroughs would greatly exceed
200,000. (Murmurs.) Under the educational franchise I

calculate in boroughs 35,000 would be qualified, 25,000
fundholders, and 45,000 in savings banks. There is a return
now before the house with regard to savings banks which is
very instructive, and contains the result whi h I have just
anticipated—the number of male depositors of £5O and up-
wards in saving banks. I remember that the right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), than whom no oue can bo
better acquainted on the subject, expressed an opinion last
year that probably, if that suffrage were adopted, it would
be found to prevail more in the country than in towns. It
appears, however, that the male depositors of £5O and up-
wards in boroughs amount to 72,000, and in the counties
to only 24,000 ; but in the number which I have taken, of
45,0()0, some allowance ought to be made for a speculative
estimate. You will therefore qualify in the borough con-
stituencies more than a million of persons. Wo are told
that they will not exercise the great right which we offer
them. I repeat that I regret to hoar that ; but I venture
to doubt whether the statement is correct. In our opinion
it is simply the duty of the house so to deal with this ques-
tion as that those who are qualified to exercise the suffrage
should have the opportunity—(Opposition cheers) —and
that the duty of Parliament ceases when we have accom-

plished that.
An Hon. MEMBER on the Opposition side here rose to
put a question, but resumed his seat amid loud cries of

" Order."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I will now
proceed to consider the question of the county franchise.
We propose that these new franchises shall be ex-
tended to the counties; but, in consequence of the differ-
ence in circumstances between counties and boroughs, we
do not propose that, under any circumstances, anybody
shall exercise two votes. And now I come to the amount
of the occupation franchise in counties. Sir, when I last
made some observations to the house upon this question, I
stated that her Majesty's Government thought, upon the
whole, that the county qualification had better be placed
at £2O rating, being the principle which ran through the
whole of the scheme, When I made that statement, I
made it with a feeling on the part of the Government that
the opinion of the House of Commons ought to be eon-
suited on the subject—(hear, from the Ministerial benches)
and they were of opinion also that the house had
never had a fair opportunity of coming to any de-
cided judgment upon the matter. (Murmurs.) When the
question was first originated about the reduction of the oc-
cupation franchise in counties, and the hon. member for
Surrey came forward with a proposition to reduce it to
£lO, the house was always asked to consider it in an iso-
lated manner. Now, we hold —and I think the house has
long come to the conclusion—that none of these questions
of suffrage and those of an analogous character can be con-
sidered only in an isolated manner. They depend on each
other ; and therefore I look upon the whole of these debates
upon the reduction of the franchise to £lO in counties to
have been quite beside the subject ; and 1 think the best
proof of the accuracy of that opinion is this, that they were
barren of consequences. Last year, when a Reform Bill was
before the house, and when the mind of the house was ac-
customed to consider in all its details and ramifications the
principle of parliamentary representation, there was a fair
opportunity when this question might have been discussed
in a satisfactory manner, and brought to a satisfactory set-
thineut. But it has always been a most unfortunate ques-
tion;; and never was it more unfortunate than on that
occasion, because it so happened that a great party scone
and division took place in the beginning of the evening
which had been destined for its discussion. It was brought
on in a languid house—(Oh, oh, laughter andcounter cheers
from the Ministerialists)—and a very thin house, although
it was decided by a very full house. That is another thing.
It wasdiscussed in a very unsatisfactory and feeblemanner.
I am perfectly impartial, because I took part in the debate
—(laughter)—but it was altogether conducted in a manner
which the largeness of the question did not warrant. A de-
cision was arrived at, but the majority was a very slight
one, and it was decided upon a principle which the result
• of the session showed was not the conviction of the House
of Commons. (Cries of "No, no," from the Opposition,
and counter cheers.) Well, if the House of Commons
meant anything last year, it meant that rating should bo
the principle of the franchise, and that was accepted by the
country as one of the soundest decisions that the House of
Commons ever came to. (Ministerial cheers.) Therefore
we should have been glad if the question had been calmly
and completely discussed ; and whatever the opinion of the
house might have been, we should have felt was a wise and
proper decision. But on the present occasion, bringing for-
ward a complete theasure, and wishing, as far as we possibly
can, to offer definite and definitive positions for considera-
tion of the house, her Majesty's Government have consi-
dered this question of the county occupation franchise very
much, and on the whole they believe the qualification that
would be most advantageous and most satisfactory to the
country would be a £l5 rating, and that is the 'qualifica-
tion included in the bill. That would qualify, in addition
to occupiers, 171,000 voters. There would be also in the
counties 40,000 savings banks voters, 25,000 fund-holders,
and 41,000 education franchises, which is a franchise which
would be chiefly enjoyed in the country, and a very largo
amount of direct tax-payers, probably 150,000 or 160,000.
There would therefore be—although no doubt many of
these might have double qualifications—an addition, at
the least, to the county franchise of upwards of 300,000.
1 have thus brought before the house that which is at no
time a very entertaining subject, and especially so at the
present time, when the conclusions have been somewhat
foregone ; but I hope 1 have placed before it with some
-clearness the propositions which the Government have to
make. (Cheers.) There is another part of the subject of
very great interest, upon which, although I am anxious
to touch upon nothing that is not necessary, it is
requisite that I should make some observations, and
that is the distribution of seats. (Hear, hear.)
Now that is a question of very great interest to the
public mind. (Hear, hear.) There are members on both
sides of the house who take a very deep interest in it.
(Laughter.) The proposition which 1 made on a previous
occasion has been described as one quite inadequate to the
circumstances of the country, the requirements of the
public voice, and the general necessities of the case.
(Hear, hear.) Well, lam perfectly ready to meet these
objections, not that I wish to entrap the house on an oc-
casion like this into a controversy, but I have no doubt
there will be other opportunities for going more into de-
tail. It is said that there ought to have been a much
larger scheme of disfranchisement—that, at the very least,
every town with not above 10,000 population should lose
a member. Some people say, " You might have gone
further"—(hear, hear) —namely, that a third member
should be given to many places, and that by the process
of disfranchisement and cumulative votes, at last per-
fect representation of the people would be accom-
plished. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, we have given that
subject that great consideration which it deserves. My
own opinion is that the votaries of this now system
aro not very numerous in the country, and I doubt
whether they are very numerous in this house. (A. laugh.)
But they are no doubt many of them men of distinguished
ability, of high character, and gentlemen whose opinions
upon every public subject will command and demand
attention. There is no doubt that a very great noise has
been made. (Hear, hear.) Whatever number has upheld
these opinions there is no doubt that a very great noise has
been made iu the country as to these three-cornered con-
stituencies and cumulative votes—blessings only to be
obtained by a large disfranchisement of the borough mem-
bers. Well, sir, I admit that as far as leading articles and
letters in the newspapers aro concerned the question is
settled. But I have always observed with respect tolead-
ing titles and letters in the newspapers— I speak
advisedly, for I have written leading articles my self
(laughter) —that the distinguishing characteristic of them
is this, that they always assume that there is only one side
of the question. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) And I
think they are very wise in their generation, because I
take it that if they did not make that assumption nobody
for a moment would read them. (Hear, hear.) If the
question of three-cornered constituencies and cumulative
votes be brought under the consideration of the house, I
will, and there are others near me who will, meet it fully,
frankly, and fairly. At the same time lam sure that those
who hold those opinions have a right to know the views
of the Government respecting them ; and therefore I say
having considered the question—l am sure without preju-
dice, completely and thoroughly tested it on every point,
and tried it from every quarter—our opinion is that the
scheme is erroneous in principle, and would be pernicious
in practice. (Ministerial cheers.) On this question there
are only two courses to follow, U you wish to improve the