The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-02 00:00:00

FRIDAY EVENING,

of the council should be entitled to a pension who kad
not served ten years.
Mr. GREGSON did not think the whole time of the
members of the council would be required. They would
only have to attend the board once a week, and he
thought 5001. a year would be sufficient. For that
and the patronage attached to the office, he thought
efficient men would be found.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that, although the members of the council would have
to meet once a week in a council, a daily attendance of
many hours would be required of them in addition.
There were many men who were not habitually resident
in London, who would be very efficient members of the
council, and their compulsory residence would entail
upon them great expense.
Mr. V. SMITH said if first•rate men were to be ap-
pointed members of the council, 1,2001. or oven 2,0001.
a year would int be too large a sum for them, as they
would be equal to privy councillors and men holding
hi?h office in the State. Bu. be did not think
that would be the condition .of the council. The
Directors of the East India Company were in possession
of 5001. a year with patronage ; and he never heard that
those gentlemen complained of the inadequacy of their
salaries. If the East India Directors elected four of the
gentlemen already Directors who would not attend more
than once a week from their other pursuits, 5001 a year
would be enough for them ; while for: the nominees
of the Crown he admitted 1,2001. a year would not be
too much. •
Lord STANLEY thought two scales of salary objec—
tionable. It was not the intention of the bill to bind the-
persons appointed on the council to give up the whole'
of their time and to abandon every other support; but
it would be expected of them that they should glVe
up as much time as the performance of the duties would

kr. LOWE said the only difficulty the committee
was in was that they were called upon to asssess the
salAry for duties on the nature of which they had no in-
ferina:ien. If the duties were to be those of the C iurt
of Directors he thought 5001. a-year would be sufficient,
but if the dneies were to be these of a permanent
secretary in a puelic office he considered that 1,200/.
iseyear would be by no means exorbitant. He deplored
the reckless manner in which mo .ey was squandered
away in that house—money that would spread education
over whole districts and mi igate the horrors of
a perverse religion, and ail this to be wrung out of
the sweat and blood of a miserably oppressed people.
(Hear, hear.)
C done' SYKES (Director) spoke of the vast amount
of business theDireceors of the Eset India Company bad
to discharge. He considered 8001. or 1,0001. aye :r
would be sufficient, and that it should be considered an
honorarium
Mr. M. MILNES considered 1 2001. a year not too
much for the members of the council,
Mr, WHITE thought the work would be as well done
by men at 5001 a year as at 1,2001 a year.
Mr. WILLIAMS considered 5001. a year salary suf-
ficient, especially as the patronage was valued in 1853 as
worth 6,080/. Reeear. (Oh, Oh I) The finances of
India were in that embarrassed state that, if they a ,n•
tinned tht.i pr .iligate system of expenditure, the re--
'eon:oes of E gland would bo called upon to meet it, and
they would tave to tax the people of England to make
up the defici,ney of India.
Lord,JoaN,l3.-USSELL considered the,deeisiod bf
the committee, giving parroeage to the council, and dei
priviegeeletneifreemeeeate in that. house, had greatlyir,
ereased the difficultiee of the subject. If the °einem Of
the hon, member for Lambeth was correct in reference
te the patronage, he (Lord J. Pi:seen) feared it would
reeeit injueouelv to India On the whole, he thought
1,2001, a-year was not too much if they were tole:lye
the best men, and guard against the misapplication of
the, patronage,
Sir J GRAHAM said, that the bill and the amend-
tuente, coupled, with the statements of the members of
her filejesty'a Government, he presumed the contic,l
would have daily
,duties to discharge. (Hear.) It ap•
peered to him teat it was the inteneme of her Her Ma.
j sityi Government to divide the work into committees
sot j-ct to the direction of the Provident of the Cituncil.
The impression on the minds of hon. members with re
fereuce to the bid was ihat if eleceed to the cruneil they
must devete their ...hole time to the dutiea of their office,
and he had beet, informed by Captain Sheppard, at pre-
sent a director, chairman of the Hudson's Bey Comp my
d deputy chairman of the Trinity 11 teal, that if Le were

e!oeted memberol the cJuncil be shou:d consider himself
bound to resign Viose tvio offices. (Lien, hear ) He
bad no dire to spend ore rupee more than was necei-
&;,ry, to advauce . the happiness of the people of
iudia' and he thought unthiug would conduce more
t,, wards the attainwent of tbst ojeet than by having
rceil constituted Government in this conotty. On the
*bole, be considered the sum named in the bill not too
much for the members of the council, understanding
Oat the devnVon of time meant such reasonable attend..
anc,t as thr PresideNt of the Council might requiro.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCFIEQUER said it
_ _

was not desirable to introduce into the bill words

rividly preventing the members of the council from per-
f 'min other duties, but to leave it to the President of
the Council to deuce their duties and alendance, ac-
cording to the necessities of the case. The di-p,sal of

their• time to the duCes of the office would not preclude
the members of the council from attending to other
• duties, It would, however, be a matter of election,
whether gentlemen would place theirtimeat the di• petal
of the office, or adhere to their counting-houses
duties in a rigid manner. He thought, -however, the
members of toe council,- altio-mgh called on to place
their time at the disposal of their "fficee, would
permit them to maintain, in a modified form, their
relation with the pursuits that had heretofore
entirely absot bed their lives. He c•wsidered a salary cf
1,2001. a•}•ear by no means too much. The subjt.ct was
a very difficult one. They had beard many sums men-
tioned, and the bon. memberfor Aberdeen bad said thNt
whilst 800/, a-year would be at, honorarium, 1,200/,
a-year would be an insult. (Hear, beer, and laughter.)
He considered the metnbers of the council ought not to
be paid less than the Lords of the Treasury. (Divide.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS c .nsidered the difficulty of fixing
the amount of ralary arose from the large number of
mut:cilium He supported the.ctllTA named by the Go-
vetnment in the hil', but sugpsted a modification el
the clause, to the effect that the sum should not txceed
1,2001., which would enable the Government at any
Suture time to adapt the paiary to the actual duties
hereat,er t.' be discharged by the members of the
council.

Lord STANLEY. said it was better to fix the sum,
and if it was found hereafter there was a diminu ion of
duties, be thought it would be better for the Gwarn•
went of. the day to come to Parliament for a bill to rd-
duce the members of the council rather than provide in
the hill for a reduction of sal+iy.
After some further conversation, Mr. COLLIER ex-
pressed his wish L.) withdra w his amendment, but it was
objected to by the committee.
. . -

-After a few words frmn Mr. Cenineham, Sir E. Perry,
Sir J. Elphbastone, Mr. L me, Mr. C. x, and Mr.
Elliott,
e-
The committee divided. The numbers we r*— -
For the amendment
Against it "
Majority --167
The &awe, after some further discussion fixing the
salary at 1,2001. a-year, was agreed to.
On clause 14, which provides retiring pensions after
10 years' service,
Sir F. BARING urged there should be a uniformity
of retiring pensions. A man should not be induced to
continue in office longer than he was capable of effi-
ciently discharging the chalet., with a view of obtaining
a large pension. ,
Mr. RICH Moved, as an amendment, that the period
of retirement should be at the end of 15 years instead
of 10 years,
Lord STANLEY &fended the clause. Many men
might be practically incapable of discharging' the duties
at the end of 10 years ; whilst others might be able to
do so at the end of 15 years. It was to meet the firmer
case that the clause had been drawn an,.l. the distinction
in amount made. There was as rauch.objection and
abuse in getting men to resign, as there was in induc.ng
them to hold office for the kigher pension ; but he
thought the proposal in the clause was one that the com-
mittee might agree to.
Mr. GLADSTONE objected to pension., except in
cases where the country had had the benefit of she
whole of a man's services. He objewed to men coming
back from India in the enjoyment ef pensions in respect
of services rendered in tha country being put into offices,
giving theta new titles, and after a shore-period of ger-,
vice giving them claim to accumulation p•nsinee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said it
was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to
appoint men at present in tne enjoyment of Pensions for
services in India. The object of the clause was to pre-
vent men who were disabl-d alter a certain period, and
were unable to perform their duties, from hanging on to
their situations and their salaries to the detriment of the
government of India.
Lord STANLEY said if the committee would take
the clause as is stood, down to 5001. after 10 years' ser-
vice, he was ready to consent to the omission from the
bill of the remainder of the clause.
After some further-discussion, in Which Dlr. Ayrton,
Mr. Elliott, and Mr. Mangles took parr,
Tne clause, amended as suggested by T
Stanley,
was agreed to, a proviso being added relative to the
reduction of the number of the council when Parliament
might think fit.
On the motion that &sues 14, as amended stan', part
of the bill,
Mr. GLA.DSTONE said that at present, in reference
to the directors of the East India. Company, her Ma-
jest's Government bad power to compel the resignation
of a director from physical incapacity, and he was not
disposed to surrender that princiPle- Lae thesught some
provision' should be introduced into the bid, retaining
that power relative to the number of the council.
Lord STANLEY said it was provided for in the bill,
by an address from both }louses Of Parliameet to the
Crown for that purpose.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought it objectionable.
Mr. RICH said he would take the sense of the com-
mittee on the dance.
The committee divided. ?he numbers wete—
Yir the clause as amended............ 199.
, Against it ... . .......... .... ........... 101
Majority .................
..... _9B
The clause, as amended, was agreed .to.
Clause 15, regulating the ad m iuistrative estab!ishments
of the Hume Government, gave rise to some discuses a,
and the clause, after some verbal amendments, was
agreed to.

Clauses 16, 17, and 18, were agreed to with venial
amendtnents.
Clause 19 was under consideration, wLen
The Commidee suspended its sitting at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock, and Iroceeded a:th
the further consideration of the bill,

(LEFT SITTII, a.)