The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-07 00:00:00

growth of the British Empire, that it had now reached a Queens troops were moved into another territory they
Point when it became a subject of speculation as to ceased to be paid out of the revenues of India.
what power might be intriguing against us. The enemy After a few words from Mr. MANGLES and Colonel
might stand in positive geographical communication SYKES, •
with our frontier, and it had became a serious matter for The word "in," after the words, " her Majesty's
modern statesmen to consider whether an army in forces," was then struck out of the claim ; and the
Europe might not be carried to India. The conse- words, "maintained out of the revenue of" inserted
quence was, that wars had been advisedly for local in- I intnead of the word "in."
fluences, but having far more reference to Europen in- I On the question that the clause as amended stand part
terests, and on that account it was necessary the house ' of the bill,
should seriously contemplate the imposition of such a Lord PALMERSTON said he was astonished at the
restriction as that which ho was about to suggest. He course taken by her Majesty's Government with respect
would refer to two instances of wars in India as illustra- : to this clause, which he thought a very objectionable
tions of his argument. They were the war with Affghan- I one. He should not, however, take a division on the
istan and the war with Persia. What was the political I question, for he knew that that would be useless.
effect of those operations ?. What was the magnitude I (Laughter.)
of the scale on which they were conducted? The The SPEAKER then put the question, that the
war with Affgbanistan was the subject of long pre- , clause, as amended, stand part of the bill ; and, amid
vious consideration ; it was not a sudden unforeseen much laughter, said, " I think the noes have it."
necessity ;it was the fruit of long and deliberate con- The division bell was then rung, the cries of "agreed"
sideration, and if it bad been necessary to appeal to . being very general, while hon. roe'inbers were claming in
Parliament before it was commenced there was no I from the library and dining-rooms. When the question
doubt it could have been done without the least danger had been put after the closing of the doors, the Speaker
or inconvenience. It was entered upon without such a declared that the "ayes" had it. A division, however,
reference, athough a large section of the House of took plane, and the numbers were—
Commons disapproved of it—so much so indeed that at For the clause
one time while it was in progress the right honourable Against it
baronet the member for Carlisle gave notice of his inten- Majority for the clause —lO6
tion to challenge the Minister upon the subject; but, from Lord PALMERSTON then rose to move the follow-
motives of state policy, it was found impossible to bring ing clause—" That so much of this act as relates to the
the motion on, and Parliament was excluded from pro-
nouncing an opinion upon a war that involved the lives nomination, election, duration of service, salaries, and
of as many subjects of the Queen as the Russian war, retired allowances of the councillors shall not continue
and added between 12,000,0001. and 15,000,0001. to the in force longer than for five years from the let of
at present proposed to be constituted was, in hie
debt of India. Let the war have been right and neces- August, 1858." The noble lord said that the council as
opinion,
maxim
fa
one continuationo f
the
po l
iotfi
ea?
we
rdi
toeursb loaf glot va el Italy
nm
statede nt .
that A
sary, it did not matter for his purpose ; that was not his
point. What he said was that it was a matter upon
which Parliament ought to have something to say ; but
no opportunity was afforded for saying it. It was impos-
when it was desired to maintain things as much like
Bible to refer to the judgment of Parliament after the
what they were as possible their name should be
war had commenced. At a much
was made to challenge the judgment later date an attempn
t
changed. (Laughter.) That was what her Majesty's
upon
it, but it failed. With regard to the Persian war, the government were about to do in the case of the Indian
case was still more apparent; it came nearer home by administration. He had no objection to the greater
many degrees to the rights of the British people and the number of the councillors being chosen from amongst
privileges of the house. When the Government of the the directors of the East India Company, who were men
o
day gave orders for their military operations in Persia, of experience in Indian affairs ; but he saw no good rea-
son why the salary of the gentlemen so to be chosen was
they appeared to have felt that it would be unjust to
to be raised from 5001. to 1,5001. a-year, when their
impose on the people of India the entire burden of the
duties were not to be so onerous as they had hitherto
war. Accordingly, they made an arrangement under
been. Again, the East India directors held office for
which the immediate cost of the war was to devolve upon
the limited period of six years, subject to re-election after
the East India Company, but a portion of that cost was
that time. They were liable to retirement into private
to be reimbursed by Parliament. In the autumn of
life without any pension, The councillors under the
1856 the order was sent out for commencing military
new bill were to hold office for life, with a liability to
operations in Persia ; in February, 1857, Parliament
retire after a certain period on a pension of 500/. a-year.
met, but there was no special or direct reference to the These councillors would not have to decide anything ;
war in the speech from the throne or the address, The the cabinet minister would be the party to decide. The
Government were asked whether they inteaded to take councillors would have no responsibility, whereas the
any vote upon it, and they replied that they did not.
directors were responsible to their constituents. There
The Parliament which existed when the war with Persia was little doubt that within two years' time a great deal
was begun was dissolved without its having bad an op-
of the detail business that was at present sent home from
portunity of saying whether it was an assenting party India to be transacted in this country would be done on
to the operations ; and yet it was during the existence the spot, so that the duties of the councillors would be
of that Parliament that the whole expenditure was in- growing less important. He was quite confident tbatils
curred. Again, he would not say one word upon the
government were framing their bill they
was too large a number of councillors. When
policy of the war—he would assume, if they liked, that his
there was a public necessity for all the measures taken. were of opinion that six would be sufficient, but
His doctrine was simply this, they were measures to made the number up to eight in deference to the
which Parliament ought to have been a party. It such opinions of others. Indeed, he thought that the
a precedent were allowed to grow into a practice it tendency of the noble lord's (Lord Stanley's) mind was in
would amount to a perfect nullification of the privileges
the -same direction ;and he likewise was of opinion that
of the House of Commons, which were most vitally cos- 15 would be found too many. He (Lord Palmerston)
netted with the liberties of the people, and therefore he did not, in the clause which he now proposed, ask the
strongly urged upon the house the necessity of placing house to interfere with its former decision in respect of
some restraint in this respect upon the future ac-ion of the council. His object was to enable Parliament to
the Government. He concluded by moving the follow- deal with the council at a future time without being met
ing clause, viz. :—" Except for repelling actual invasion, with the question of " vested interest," or that ef " par-
er under other sudden and urgent necessity, her Ma- liamentary title ;" and under these circumstances he
jeety'e forces in the East Indies shall not be employed thought the Government ought to consent to the inser-
in any military operation beyond the external frontier tion of the cause. (Hear, hear.) . •
of her Majesty's Indira possessions witheut the consent
Lard STANLEY said that, though the noble lord
of Parliament to the purposes thereof."
Lord STANLEY did not rise to reply to the argu- who had just addressed them had stated that he did not
ments of his right hon. friend, but merely to observe that wish to put the house under the necessity of reconsider-
though he did tot quite go the length of his illustrations, ing the question which they had already decided, he
he yet concurred with him in the opinions he had ex• (Lord Palmerston) advocated the insertion of his clause
pressed, and should therefore offer no opposition to the on the ground that it would give the house an oppor-
introduction of the clause. The reason such, a clause
tunity of reconsidering that question within a limited
was not introduced into the original bill was this ; it was
time. (Hear.) Ile objected to the plan which the noble
felt that although such a clause would be valuable an a
declaration of the intentions and opinions of Parliament, lord proposed for giving Parliament au opportunity of
still, as a practical check upon the Minister, it would considering the sueject, and he did so because Perlis-
not have much force. It was a matter of importance, went had an opportunity of considering it, not in five
however, that there should be placed formally on record years, but at the very earliest period at whinh it or any
some notice of the intentions and feelings of Parliament otber portion of the measure now under discussion should
on the subjnet, and as such a declaration he accepted prove inconvenient in practice, if any part of the bill
this clause. Iu that light he regarded it, in that sense should turn out to be so. (Hear.) The noble lord
he accepted it. spoke of keeping the door open for a reconsideration.
airysio Why,tradnosi
Stanley)
yet
r)mheecetoddhnootsouoi door was i 1
atil
and
hear)—but
objection.dt r ,
tuTn,
db
thatet i
rt
thethh ho (Lord
(Hear,
ni e noblyecae r r
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that if this clause was adopt-
hwrtai wishugtg
hot
toephreeeptiu—qtwu open—(hear,
1 s:aet riagloirrna,
ed, it should be c insidered in what way Parliament
should give its consent to an Indian war, in which it was
not necessary to vote supplies'. It was unconstitutional
for Parliament to interfere directly. hear.) He theuelet there was a great objection to fixing
Lord PALMERSTON would not argue the question any definite period at which any particular measure
in rig rd to the past wars to which his right hon. must be dealt with. He remembered to have heard
great complaints that the subject of the B tub Charter
friend (Mr. Gladstone) had alluded, except to observe that was obliged to be brought under discussion at a peal
the war with Persia mere especially was announced teament in the most formal manner in the Qmen -
, s cular time, no matter how important might be the other
Parli
measures which that discussion would interfere with.
speech at the opening of the session, and that any mem-
Five years ago, when the Government of which the noble
her who chose to do so had thus the opportunity afforded
lord eeaa a member brought forward a measure which
to him of raising the question, and taking the opinion of
it was proposed should be reconsitered in 10 years, the
Parliament upon it. He concurred with his right hon.
feeling of the h ,use was imanife,ted against that proposed
friend that it was not in accordance with the principle
reconsiieration. There might be at such a period events
of the constitution to require the assent of Parliament of public moment—there might be a reform bill ; there
to be obtained previews to declaring war. The funda-
might be great questions of organic change; there might
mental principle of the constitution was that tuts declar- be inn jests absoreing the whole public attention; there
ing cf war arid the making of peace tested with the
might ue war imminent orectual; and any or all of these
Crown upon the respensibeity of the advisers of the
circumstances might prevent their giving that attention
Crown, and it would be to introduce a principle dsstrucs
to the topic it deserved. 'the noble lord had said he was
five of the British constitution to maietain that the tea
afraid that vested interests wouli be created under this
sent of Parliament was necessary either for the declaring
bill, and that, therefore, Parliament would be compelled
of war or the waking of peace. (Hear, bear.) I-1
- e was
to pay heavy compensation if it proposed to diminish
astonished, therefore, that the Minister of the CrOWD
the number of the Council or to diminish the amount of
did no: rise and protest against doctrines so inconsistent
their salaries; but if the noble lord would look at the
with the princiPles of the constitution. (Hear.) But apart
last paragraph of clause 14, he would find it was pro-
from the constitutional question, he wiehod to address
sided that if at any time hereafter it should appear ex-
himself for a moment to the wording of the clause. First,
peclient to Parliament to reduce or alter the constitution
his right hon. friend proposed to enact that her Majesty's
of the Count 1, no member of the Council who bad not
forces in the East Indies shall not be empleyed in any
served 10 years should be entitled to compeneation. The
military operations beyond the external portion of her
noble lord then went on to find fault with the provision*
Majesty's Indian possessions without the consent of
of the amendment. He said, "You would continue the
Parliament, except to repel invasion. Now, invasion double government and leave nothing but the same ma-
could only be repelled within the domieions of the coun-
chinery that Existed before." At the beginning of the
try invaded. This part of the clause, therefore, was some- year the noble lord had delivered an interesting speech
thing like what, had it emanated from some hon. gen- on this subject, in which he dwelt with force on the in-
tleman from the other aide of the Channel, would have
convenience and delay and the complexity that was
been called a bull. (A. laugh.) But what was meant
caused to ordinary business from the existence of the
by her 'Majesty's forces in the East Indies ? Was it the two offices, and from the sending to and fro despatches
local army or the Queen's troops, being part of the regu-
one to another, but under the present bill this would not
far army, but stationed in India for the time, that these be the case. The administration of India would be
words were intended to refer ? He imagined that the directly under the Oro en; great facilities were provided
restriction was meant co apply only to the Indian army,
for placing the army on a different footing, and steps
because if not, it would prevent any of the Qaeen's
bad been taken without which measures of subsequent
troops eervine in India from being moved to carry on
reform would be far more difficult of accomplishment.
military operations in other parts of the world without
The noble lord had objected to the number of the Coon-
the previous steps required by the clause. But suppers)
cil, and said that the number of 15 on committees of tee
a war we; to break out with China or with Turkey, and 11, 'u
eof Commons was not found to work well. But
it was found necessary to remove some of the Queen's
was that the experience of the house? Was it not rather
troops serving in India to take part in such war—was it the case that the house usually adopted that number as
intended that those troops should be placed ih regard to
being not too large for practical business ? In point of
their employment on a different footing from the troops fact, the ereater parte the work to be done by the Council
at the Cape, the Mauritius, or any other part of the
would be done by smallcommitteee, and not by the whole
Q-ieen's dominions ? He presumed that that, at all collective body. The noble lord said he thought the
events, was not what the noble lord (Stanley) intended,
members; of the Government would look forward to the
and if not, he would respectfully submit to the noble time when a reduction in the numbers of the council
lord that he bad been eornewhat hasty in adopting this would be desirable, and they had been told that by adopt-
clause, and that it would be well if he would take for- nig the proposed different mode of carrying on the busi-
ther time to consider it. (Hear.) ness of India, they would probably diminish the work of
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The the Government at home. That was a question on which
noble lord says that by the constitution of the country he would pronounce no opinion, either one way or the
the Sovereign alone possesses the power of peace and other. It it turned out that the amount of work to be
war, and therefore he objects to the principle of this transacted at home would be diminished, then it would
clause. No doubt the constitution places in the hands become a question whether the number of the council
of the Crown the power of declaring war and making should not be diminished; although he might mention
peace, but what we have been considering is a state of that they did not look on these members of council, like
affairs which is not under the constitution of this coon- so many clerks, to go through a number of despatches,
try. (Cheers.) Though the power of peace and war rest but they were wanted for the experience they could bring
with the Sovereign, practically the constitution gives to and the advice they would give—for the general admi-
the House of Commons the control in the power of vet- nistrative capability they oneld give to the Government,
ing or withholding the supplies for carrying on war. But and not merely with reference to the amount of manual
in the case of India, if the power of declaring war and labour. He never denied that it might be possible here-
making peace is left with the Sovereign entirely,when that after to-reduce them. Remembering how they were at
power is
. once exercised there are no means of control, this moment actingon conjecture—remembering the diffi.
and a policy might be pursued which might be extremely culty of the experiment to be tried—a Minister might not
injurious to the interes sof the country. The instances be ashamed to eome down to the house, and say that the
to which the noble lord referred as showing the incon- facts of the case had differed from his original anticipa-
venience which might arise from accepting this clause do Lion. (Hear.) He did not think there would be any diffi-
not, in my opinion, apply. The noble lord argued that if culty in a Minister taking such a course, but he did object
any portion of the Queen's troops serving in
in India should to condemn by anticipation a plan which the house had
be wanted to carry on military operations China or in fully sanctioned. (Hear.) If the noble lord thought so
Turkey, we could not, under this clause, so employ them.
badly of it, it was not a question whether it should last
My answer to that is that if the Queen's troops should five y ears, but whether it shoeld be passed into a law at
be so required in China or in Turkey, it must be in ail ; and if that were his opinion, he would have au
consequence of the exercise • of the prerogative of the opportunity on the third reading of the bill, which was
crown under the constitution of this country in declar- not very distant, to ascertain whether that would be
ing war—(hear)—and in that case the Houseof Commons the opinion of the house. (Cheers.)
would have the power of exercising its constitutional Mr. BLIGHT intended to support the proposal of the
privilege by voting or withholding the supplies and con. noble lord the rnemb2r for Tiverton, and indeed the noble
trolling the powers of the crown—(hear, bear)--there- lord the Minister for India had furnished a very strong
fare, although perhaps some alteration may be necessary argument in its favour when he reminded the house that
in the language of the,,clause, lam of opinion that it is the work
they were engaged on was very much founded
not, as the noble lord supposes, an attack upon the pre- ox conjecture. Well, they all knew that, but it was just
for that reason that Parliament should retain
rotative of the crown, but a wise and politic provision. precisely
the power recommended by the noble viscount. But besides
(Cheers.) that, it must bo remembered that the measure had been
Lord J. RUSSELL concurred in the general policy passed by a party which had only made up its mind, upon
of the clause, for the reasons which the right hon. gentle- compulsion, to legislate at all for India. (Hear.) There
man had stated. If the clause passed in its present were, therefore, strong reasons for doubting whether the
form it would prevent the sending of any of her Majesty's bill was likely to promote the future good government_ of
forces in India beyond the frontier without the consent that country. If another Indian convulsion should not
of Parliament, and the delay and publicity consequent
come abouta before that timeit was not wholly impossible
against the government of India
on bringing the matter before Parliament might lead to that the same compl ints
the failure of an operation such as the capture of Java.
might be heard io l 5 years to come. Ho thought, there-
fore, it would be a very wise precaution for Parliament to
Teerefore, whilst agreeing in the policy of the clause,
retain the power of revising the bill. (Hear.)
he thought some alteration was required in the wording. Mr. MACAULAY regardod the proposal of the noble
The SOLICITOLI-GENERAL would submit to the lord as wholly inconsistent with the provisions of the bill
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) whether his already sanctioned.
object might not be effected in a more satisfactory Mr. SMITH said that the objection just urged by his
manner by inserting, instead of the words, "in the East hon. friend would equally applyother alterations
to
any
tthere was great
"maintained out of the revenues of the East they might make in the bill. He thought Indies,"
Indies." (Hear, hear.) force in the remarks of his noble friend in reference to the
Mr. WILSON said, that what he presumed his right constitution of the proposed committee, and he must say
hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) wished to provide was, that that nothing in his opinion could be more extraordinary
than the course taken by Government in reference to it.
a similar check should be bad in the case of Indian wars 1 .
Mr. WHITESIDE thought that the proposal of the
to that which existed in the case cf European wars. He noble lord, as well as tie tine of the right hon. gentleman
thought that object would he hest effected by inserting, was not very complimentary to the house, which had
instead of the words, ,i hen Majesty's forces in the East , shown the greatest industry in framing the bill as it now
Indies," ,3r.0., the words, "the revenues of India shall I stood. Gentlemen of the largest experiexceconeected with
not be employed," &c. India had again and ace,in declared that the number of 15
Mr. GLADSTONE said he bad no objection to make was necessitated by the requirements of the council, and
the alteration suggested by the Solicitor General, which that such a number not too many. The noble was one
hink
be thought would meet the case. He did not t
,( • •effect t provide that at the end of five
lord's propose was in o
years the whole fabric which they had taken such pains to
the alteration suggested by his hon. friend (Mr. Wilson) -
erect should crumble into dust. That, undoubtedly, would
was a desirable one. be the result of the noble lord's proposal, although it was
Lord PALMERSTON would remind his right hon. ushered in by a speech at total variance with any such
I
friend (Mr. Gladstone) that the Queen's troops stationed conclusion. No doubt the argument of the hon. member
in India were paid out of the revenues of that country I
1 for Bine:thigh= was quite consistent, but then the hoe.
as well as those of the Indian army. I gentleman was opposed to the eeistence of a council
the bolles to reject theproposal of
Mr. GLADSTONE observed that the noble lord's at all. Hit called upon _ . .
I
statement was quite correct, but the raurnsnt the the noble i lord awl thus sbow thernselvee enwellieti to
, .. ..