The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-15 00:00:00

be introduced in India itself. (Hear.) He did not put
forward the principle of election as the principle of re-
presentation—(hear)—but simply as a means—an alter-
native means which the house would do well to consider;
by which, for some portion of this council, they might
obtain the services of men who should be at once emi
neat and independent. The only question on which he
need enter, then, was the nature cf the constituency to be
adopted. If any such constituency was formed, be thought
the house would be ready to accept that which already
existed, viz., the Court of East India Proprietors. To
that court might be added a large number of persons who
had an interest in the material and industrial enterprises
which were carried on in India ; as, for instance, the
holding of India railway stock. The proprietors of India
stock entitled to vote amounted, be believed, to 1,600 or
1,700, and the holders of India railway stock to about
2,600. In addition to these, as applying a third element
for the supposed ;constituency, they might take the re-
tired officers of the various branches of the service in
India who had served there for 10 years. Of such officers
• there were resident in this country from 2,600 to 2,700
persons. Thus these. bodies would give a constituency of
from 7,000 to 8,000, so that as regarded numbers a con-
stituency could be found. With regard to the intelligence
of such a constituency, and their competence to perform
the duty which would devolve upon them, he need not
use any argument, for upon that point the committee
could form its own judgment. He would merely observe
that such a constituency would import a large amount
of personal interest into Indian affairs—a large amount
• of experience of Indian administration, and, what was
perhaps of no less importance, an entire freedom from
political bias. If the elective principle was adopted, that
was the general constituency which he should suggest,
and which he would now leave the committee to decide
upon. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the noble lord had made a
very fair statement to the committee on this important
subject, but which did not require any very lengthened
argument. They had, on the one hand, this suggestion
of the noble lord, and on the other they had the
proposition of the appointment of the council by the
Crown—a mode of appointment which the Government
themselves adopted for part of the council. It was the
regular and constitutional mode of appointment in this
monarchy that when appointments to the executive were
made they should be made by the Crown or the respon-
sible Minister of the Crown. (Hear, hear.) When ap-
pointments of this kind were wade, whether of judges or
• other executive officers, everybody knew from whom the
appointment emanated, and by whom advice was given
to the Crown. If an incompetent person was appointed,
the Prime Minister or the head of the department from
whom the appointment issued was responsible. There
was therefore a constitutional security of responsibility
when an unfit appointment was made. By the act of
1853 a certain number of appointments to the East India
Board were given to the Crown. Five appointments
were made under that act, and no one that he was aware
of found fault with the selection made by the Crown.
(Hear.) At all events, the late President of the Board of
Control had not found fault with them nor their other
colleagues at the India Board. He did not know that it
bad ever been said that the appointments of judges, the
heads of the revenue and customs departments had been
unduly made; and for this reason, that the Minister of
the Crown felt that a heavy responsibility rested on him
if an improper selection had been made. The noble lord
pointed out souse of the objections to nomination. Ob-
jections might of course be made to any mode of appoint-
ment, but in all these things they must only balance
convenience and inconvenience. He did not think that
nomination during good behaviour, or for a longer or
shorter term of years, which was the mode of nomination
chosen by the present Government themselves, would be
open to such inconvenience and be so injurious to the
council as the mode now proposed by the Government.
(Hear.) It was one thing to keep up the old machinery
when the old machinery existed, and he could under-
stand the argument of those who said the advantage of
it was so great that they would not risk a change. But
when the house decided that a change was desirable he
ventured to submit to the committee that they ought
to make it complete, and not to take a piece of one sys-
tem and a piece of another system, and try to dovetail
them together. (Hear, hear.) There was consistency
and identity of interests in the old system, when the
East India proprietors were traders, and flourished as
trade prospered, and decayed as trade decayed. But
when, in 1833, this system ceased, and the proprietors
of East India stock had their dividends secured to them
in such a manner that the prosperity or failure of the
Indian trade hardly affected their position, the position
of the East India proprietors became very different.
They had a three per cent, stock in this country, the value
of which depended very much on the prosperity of the
country, but no man would say that the proprietors of
the three per cent, stock should elect a certain number of
the Cabinet of this country. (Hear.) There would be
quite as much incongruity and absurdity in making the
proprietors of the East India stock elect a part of the
Indian Council. The holders of railway stock appeared
to him as little fitted to be electors of the council as the
proprietors of Eest India stock. They never were known
to have taken any part is the government of India; they I
were guaranteed the money they advanced, they bad no j
direct interest in the government of India, and whatever j
interest they had might be supposed to lie in the direc-
tion
of imposing greater burdens so as to secure good
dividends to themselves. With regard to the retired ;
commissioned officers resident in this country, some of 1
that class might take an interest in the affairs of India,
bat the greater part of them, though resident
in India, and serving in India, did not cone
cern themselves, and bad no manner of interest
in the persons who were most competent to govern
India. He understood that there were 400 ladies who
Were proprietors of East India Stock. He had no great,
objection to their introduction, but it was a novel prin-
ciple to introduce into the government of India. (Hear,
hear.) The house had already decided that the system
of governing India should be changed, and he should
consider it a bad augury for the good government in the
future if they took those who had been heretofore the
nominators of the government of India as the future
constituency of India. The committee should consider
the evil which would follow from the proposition. The
directors would have the same share of patronage that
they heretofore had. Persons of very great weight very
much objected to the mode of paying the directors by
patronage. Lord W. Bentinek, Lord Macaulay, and
Mr. Trevelyan, persons of great Indian experience,
protested against their being paid by patronage ; and he
saw by the papers of that day that Sir J. Lawrence was
of opinion that all appointments in India, whether civil
or military, should be made by competitive examination.
He (Lord J. Russell) came to the conclusion that, if the ;
noble lord succeeded in his proposition of naming ten out
of the fifteen, or eight or six, oat of the members of the
council by means of this representative body, he would
be giving rise to a system of corruption which would be
very injurious to the future interests of India. The i
Chancellor of the Exchequer said that this body was so j
numerous and so separate that canvassing would not j
take place ; but there would be means found out of cir-
cula
ting letters and engaging the votes of the consti-
tuency ; and there was danger that the patronage of the
members would be distributed amongst the constituency
that elected them. (Hear, hear.) He was of opinion
that the nomination should be by the Crown, which ap-
pcared to him to be the most effectual mode of securing
the independence ofehe council. (Hear, hear.) The
noble lord concluded by moving that it was expedient
that the members of the council should be nominated by
her Majesty. (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM, who rose at the same time with
Sir E. Perry, said he was sorry to stand between the
house and the hon. and learned gentleman, who had so
much more experience of India, and whose opinions
were more worthy of their attention. He bad
hitherto abstained from obtruding any opinion of his
upon the attention of the committee ; but the vote which
be was now called upon to give he could not give with-
out taking a somewhat more general view of the subject
than was presented by the motion under consideration.
Throughout these discussions he had deliberately voted
in accordance with the opinion that this moment was
most inopportune for changing the system of government
in India. (Hear.) He had therefore voted for the motion
of the hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring) for
the motion of the noble lord the member
for Durham
(Lard H. Vane), and for the motion of his right
horn. frien7l
(Mr. Gladstone). Although he did not wish to e-ar
the question on which the house had already pronounced,
still he could not but remark that the authorities on whom the greatest reliance could safely be placed on such a sub-
ject were opposed to the step they were about to take.
Lord Ellen borough pronounced a decided opinion that the
change at this time was in xpedient. He had no means of
knowing with precision the opinion of Lord Dalhousie,
but he believed confidently that his opinion was opposed
to the change on which they wereabout to enter. But what-
ever might be the opinion of Lord Ellenborough or Lord
Dalhousie, of all men living he entertained a very decided
opinion that the decision and opinion of Mr. Mountetewart
Elpbinstone was that which was mos entitled to their

consideration—(hear, hear)—and his deliberate opinion
was also adverse to proceeding with this measure at

present. (Hear.) With regard to authorities he would
say no more. He did not wish to take a gloomy view
of affairs in India, but still it could not be forgotten
that the mutiny was not at present quelled. (Hear.)
He was afraid there were as many men in arms against
them in the Upper Provinces of India as at the com-
mencement of the outbreak. There were very remark-
able expressions even with respect to the success of our
arms in the correspondence from India. Our success in
India had been compared to the course of a vessel which
cut the waves indeed, but left no trace behind ; and to
the wind blowing over a field of corn which bent before
its impulse, but immediatelyafter wards the corn raised its
head again. They heard by every mail of the capture of
guns, but still there did not appear to be any want of
guns or lack of the; munitions of war on the part of the
mutineers, thus plainly showing that there had been for
a_ length of time a concealment of arms, which were pro-
duced to meet the emergency of the present occasion.
i'l w, counsels taken in fear were generally rash and
d_a,rr,ovau.s. (Hear, hear.) To unship the rudder in a
:16,. 'i,ot ind was an instinctive impulse, but it was most
17)nut.oearQra.,11,4.
Sawed often disastrous. (Hear.) When the
baud was the afir to take the reins out of the coachman's
mind, but a ylost impulse, but it was not presence of
(Hear.) wiaien IV of fear, rashness, and imprudence.
you
would as was tottering, and the empire
was shaken,
find those who were the least
able to build it up the find
tirift to pull down and de•
s troy. (Hear.) But m
gl
'yen to the decision of theting that effect must be
maj,worihty, then came the
question, what is it you desire ?
is your object ? '
what
into ore efficacious
Is it to constitute a deliberative counciti
than that which now exists, or h
greater
promptitude and efficiency to the executifei7
It a.
peared to him that his hon. friend the member for
Birmingham was at that moment the axis ou Which
the political globe of the house revolved—(laughter)._
and that being so, he was brought to the conclusion
that his noble friend the member for Tiverton and

himself were the antipodes—(laughter)—because it
so happened that when the noble lord agreed with the
hon. member for Birmin ham, he (Sir J. Graham) found
himself differing widely from him, whilst when the noble
lord differed from his hon. friend, he found himself con-
stantly agreeing with him. (Laughter.) On the present
occasion, the hon. member for Birmingham dealt most
frankly with the house, for he told them what he desired
us to see, a council constituted as widely different from
the present Court of Directors as possible. His noble
friend—certainly somewhat late in the day—last Friday
announced that he most cordially agreed with the hon.
gentleman in that respect. (Laughter.) Now it was a
most remarkable fact that up to the present time the ex-
isting Court of Directors had no accuser. It was not
only without an accuser, but it was smothered with
compliments from all sides of the house. (Hear, hear.)
Like the victim of ancient fable, it was garlandel with
flowers of rhetoric by the very hands which were raised
to destroy it. (Hear, hear.) So far from wishing to make
the new council as different as possible from the present
Court of Directors, his desire was, since there was to
be a change, that the change should be reduced to a
minimum, and that it should be made in the main as
like the present court as possible. He did nut mean to
offer any vain compliments to any member of that house
but of all the members of that house then present who
best understood this question in all its bearings, he must
say that the right hon. gentleman the member for Hali-
fax (Sir C. Wood) was the man. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir
J. Graham) had the honour of being associated with Lord
Glenelg, with Lord Macaulay, and Sir J. Mackintosh,
in the committee which framed the act of 1833. There
was no novelty present now which was not present to
the committee which framed that act, because the com-
mercial character of the company ceased that very year
and that committee came to the conclusion, which was
adopted by the government of Lord Grey, that it was
inexpedient to take their powers from the East India
Company on the cessation of their commercial existence.
But his right hon. friend the member for Halifax, who
understood the matter clearly in theory and practice,
told the house he was of opinion that a mixed go-
verning council aiding the Minister of the Crown was
indispensable to guide and control the government of
India. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend also said
—and he did not think he would withdraw the opinion
—that " a better council than the East India direc-
tors no man ever had to aid him in the government
of India." (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend the
member for Randor and the noble lord the member for
Tiverton, differing from his right hon, friend the mem-
ber for Halifax, but not possessing his knowledge and
experience, declared the machinery to be cumbrous and
inefficient. Where was the proof of its being cumbrous
and inefficient ? (Hear, hear.) The report of the com-
mittee on transports when presented to the house would
show, if he mistook not, that any delays which took
place did not arise from the Court of Directors. (Hear,
hfar.) His right hon. friend the member for Randor,
in addressing the house upon this question, took an
illustration from mechanics, and said that no machine
was stronger than in its weakest point. Now without
meaning any disrespect to the right hon. gentleman the
member for Northampton, he would ask him where he
thought the weakest point was before the fall of the late
government. (Laughter.) But to come back to the
point that if they were obliged to make a change under
circumstances so alarmieg, it was desirable that the
change should be the minimum consistent with the de-
cision of the house. (Hear, hear.) They had resolved
that the dominion should be transferred to the crown,
and that there should be a council to assist a minister,
and they were to decide how that council was to be con-
stituted. Some persons held that the change to be
made, however small it might be, should be such as
would appear to be part of a great and large design.
He thought, however, that it would be a recommenda-
tion in any proposal that the change it involved was no
great reversal of what now existed, and did not appear
to be part of a great and extensive change. As yet all
the difficulties in India arose from a military mutiny ;
the measures of necessary severity for the punishment
of that may be such as to produce an unfavourable im-
pression on the minds of the people of India, and it
would be a most unfortunate circumstance if they should
be led to believe that there had been any great changes
in the home government of India which would lead to a
reversal of the existing policy. The East India Company,
whatever might be its faults, was imbued with a kno w-
it:lige of the social habits of the people of India, with a
sympathy for the natives, a kindly feeling towards their
prejudices and their errors. If the native mind should be
brought to believe that anygreat change had taken place
is the Government here which amounted to a reversal of
their former policy, that which is now but a military
mutiny might be converted into a struggle between races,
a conflict between black and white, and an alienation of
the whole people from us. The result of such an event
would be the loss of our empire there. All those views
pointed to the conclusion that they ought to be contented
if possible with an inconsiderable change ; that if (to use
the expression of his noble friend) they could build on
the old foundations they would effect all that circum-
stances required. Various plans had been suggested and
different persons had stated the views they were dis-
posed to take, and he therefore thought it right to state
what course he would be inclined to adopt. He was dis-
posed to think that after all it would be well that the
council should consist of a number from 13 to 15, as the
committee had already decided, and that in the first in-
stance the council should be nominated in the bill.
(Hear.) Ho thought the council so nominated should
hold office during good behaviour, which was equivalent
to life ; and that a large or the larger portion of the pre-
sent
Court of Directors should be the persons selected
for nomination on the council. (Hear, hear.) He was of
opinion, to meet the difficulty suggested by the noble
lord (Lord Stanley), that after a service of, say ten years,
the Government should be empowered to grant them a
retiring allowance. He thought also that the salary
should be at least 1,600/. a-year. He was also of opi-
nion—and in this he was sorry to say he differed from
hie noble friend (Lord J. Russell)—that they ought net
to have seats in Parliament. (Hear.) He thought a select
committee ought to be appointed. If they were to have
the requisite promptitude and efficiency, he did not see
how they could dispense with it. The Minister could not
act with promptitude and energy unless there was a se-
cret
committee through which he would act. The noble
lord (Lord J. Russel)) spoke of having them all members
of the Privy Council ; he would, as a distinction, confer
that honour only on the three members of the secret
committee. As to their sitting in Parliament, he must
say his experience of recent debates would lead him to
expeatt if it were allowed, occasional conflicts between
the minister and his council, which would be better
avoided. With regard to the question of patronage, be
thought that the appointment of Governor-General,
governors of the presidencies, and commander-in-chief
ought to be made by the crown. As to the members of
the councils in India, they might be named by the go-
vernment of the day, by the Governor-General, or by
the President and council. As regarded a very large
portion of the general patronage, the question was
already solved. The whole of the civil appointments
were made matter of public) and open competition ; that
privilege ought certainly to be extended to the first
commission in the artillery or engineers, the scientific
corps. With regard to the remainder of the patronage,
he did not Pee any objection to its being exercised by the
minister and council—(hear, hear) —in proportions s ;me-
what the same as at present, the nominees being subject
to an examination to ascertain their fineness. Ile mieht
be wrong, but he held a strong opinion that the plan
which involved the minimum of chancre was most de-
sirable, and still it would effect all the great objects
they had decided on. He had then toconsider how be
was to vote on the question immediately before them.
The principle of election did not enter into the Court of
Directors as at present constituted, and he had already
stated he should recommend that a largo portion of them
be taken for the council to be constituted in the bill. To
that extent, there would be in the first instance an inter-
mixture of the principles of election and nomination.
He was bound to say he was not prepared to carry the
principle of election further. He was prepared on
principle to vote for the resolution as it now stood, but
he could not vote for the seventh resolution. fte had
reason to believe, from the opinions of friends whose

opinions were of the highest value, the late Lord W.
Bentinck and the late Lord Hardinge, that the system
of canvassing, as it has existed up to the present time,
was so disagreeable to the feelings of many men the
best qualified—(hear)—that they would not look for the
once. He feared an extension of the constituency would
only aggravate the evil—(hear)—and aggravate it to
such a degree that first-rate men coming from India
would not expose themselves to a task so disagreeable
and so onerous. He did not wish to say anything harsh
of the present system, but from facts which had come to
his knowledge he believed, such was the pressure on
candidates with respect to patronage, that any upright
and honest man undertaking the canvass should either
sacrifice his intere.t at the expense of his friends or come
under engagements not consistent with purity of conduct.
He would venture to make a suggestion as to the mode
of filling up vacancies. He entertained a very decided
opinion that they ought not to carry the principle of no-
mination by the Crown into full effect. He would rather ,
adopt the opinion of Lord Grey, that the best course
would be for the president and council to agree to three
names to be submitted to the Crown ; before the final
nomination the lames selected by the Crown should be
laid on the table of both houses for say a month, and the
final nomination would not take place if objected to by
one or both houses of Parliament. To that extent he
would retain the principle of nomination and election.
He must say that, if they could not have 'an effective
council exercising a moral control over the minister, they
would be driven, as the hon. member for Sheffield had
prophesied, into the opposite extreme ; and if they could
not have an effective council they would be driven in
hopeless despair to embrace the opposite alternative, and
have a minister solely responsible, with subordinates of
high character and station. It could not be denied that
the government of India bad been mainly conducted in
all its highest features and most important outlines, by
gentlemen who had never themselves been in India, Sir
James Melvin, Mr. Melvill, the two Mr. Mills, and
Mr. Dickinson, were men who had worked the labour-
ing oar. He would prefer a minister with such subor-
dinates, unless they had an independent, effective coun-
cil exercising a moral control. He did not want a sham
of a council, the members of which would open
their mouths like ravens to the minister for their

food, when the terra of their office was about to

expire. He would iufluitely prefer a responsth e min-
ister to such a council. He was desirous of the very
minimum of change. It appeared to him they had
better proceed piecemeal, with a view to making future
changes as experience pointed out. The Court of Di-
rectors, with its prestige in India, and its knowledge of
the subject, would bring in the aid of the new council
that power, experience, and knowledge which would be
the best medium of introducing hereafter future changes.
He believed, on the whole, that the least change would,
in present circumstances, be the most advisable. He
thought they had now arrived at a point when they
not safely pause between two opinions ; they must
her make the least possible change, or go the entirs '