The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-02 00:00:00

[P OMR 49. STAMPED 5D .]

tions with Mr. Vernon Smith were to him as President of
the Board of Control, and they. were marked private.
Sir J. Graham—Your correspondence with the Board of
Directors and the President of the Board of Control are
not recorded. Are nct these facts consistent with the
agreement as to secrecy ?
Witness —No ; my communications to Mr. Vernon
Smith were addressed to him private, and I should have
been much surprised to have found any of them on record
at the Board of Control. It was understood that in the
new. Parliament Sir F. Kelly should conduct the proceed-
ings and give the notices. There was an arrangement that
Sir F. Kelly should make the motion, and he (Mr. Butt)'
make a speech urging the claims of Ali Moorad. Mr.
Rolt, a member of
,the house, urged him strongly to
speak, but it was after that that negotiations were opened
with the Board of Control. Mr. Coffey, on behalf of
the Ameer, said the whole question should be placed in
his hands, but he said he would not agree to it, as all he
wanted was that nothing should be done without his
knowledge. Coffey was very distinct in saying that the
Ameer was entirely in his hands; and when it was
suggested to him to open negotiations with the Board of
Control, it was hinted that he might again have the parlia-
mentary control of the question, but the responsibility was
never assumed. He never told Sir J. W. Hogg that ho
would bring the question before
,Parliament during the
session of 1857, witho.ut some concession were made to Ali
Moorad. (This part of the evidence of Sir J. W. Hogg was
read.) He did not say Sir J: W. Hogg had falsely misre-
presented the conversations between them, but he had cer-
tainly entirely misrepresented it. He might have told Sir
J. W. Hogg that the Ameer had been an ill-used man, and
that the directors would be groat fools to allow the question
to be raised in Parliament.
Sir J. Graham—Why ?
Mr. Butt—Because news of the Indian revolt arrived.
S:r J. Graham—ls it not the character of diplomacy to
say one thing and mean another ?
Mr. Butt—l don't' know that it is. What I said I
meant.,
Sir J. Graham—Sir J. Hogg and you urged him to
expedite the business, in order that you might not lose the
session.
Mr. Butt said that those answers had been put into his
mouth. If he had been left to himself he would never have
given such answers.
Sir J. Graham having adverted to some of the questions
which drew forth the replies of Sir J. W. Hogg, said that
many of them were not leading questions, but were per-
fectly fair.
Mr. Butt then said he wished to retract the insinuation
ho had thrown out against Mr. Roebuck.
By Sir J. Graham—He had stipulated with Mr. Vernon
Smith that his canvenations with him rilould bo private
and confidential, although the visits to the Board of Con-
trol were of an official character. He had assured Mr. V.
Smith that if the conversations were in any w,y divulged,
the memorial of Ali Moorad would never be presented.
That was entirely with a view of protecting the interests of
Ali Moorad. He kept Mr. V. Smith's letters to him private,
with the exception of one letter—that which Mrs. Parr said
she saw. Mr. Smith said he was at liberty to give the
general purport of the communications, but that the details
of the communications must be kept secret. It was true
that Mr. Smith's letters to him were now on their way
to India, but none of those letters were of the slightest im-
portance. Ho would not say that if he searched through his
papers in Dublin, which he had not an opportunity of doing,
some of these letters might be found. Whatever might be
the nature of those letters they were not. immediately
available for the use of the committee. On the 12th Aug.,
1857, he banked with Mr. Hurries, west-end banker, but
on the 24th of that month he opened an account with
Messrs. Glyn, who were the hankers to the railway com-
pany of which he was chairman.
Sir J. Graham—Mr. Coffey has stated in his evidence
that it was in July, 1856, and not as you say in August,
that the first offer of 5,000/. was mode to you to advocate
the Ameer's claims iu Parliament. Do you deny that?
Mr. Butt—Most positively. No such offer was ma le to
me directly or indirectly. No words were used which in
any way could be tortured into such an offer. Nothing
was said to me until 1857, when I said that by going to
India I might lose my profession, and probably my seat in
Perliament.
Sir J. Graham—You deny that the offer was made to
you in 1856 ?
Mr. Butt—l am not on my oath. I wish I'-as. But I
state—So help me God it is untrue.
Sir James Graham--Mr. Coffey has stated that in July,
1856, he said to you on the authority of the Ameer, that
-if you succeeded in gaining here the reiteration of his lands
he would give you 5,0001., and that you said you would be
istisfied. Is that true ?
Mr, Butt—lt is positively untrue.
By Sergeant Kinglake—Until the proposal was made to
him to go to India he had no money arrangement with
Mr. Coffey or any other persons relative to the Atneei's
claims. It was about the 31st of June that the pre-
posal was first made to go to India. Mr. Coffey spoke
to him about it in the absence of the Ameer. Th•
Ameer had spoken to him about going out as his agent,
whereupon ho laughed. When Mr. Coffey spoke of it
witness told hint ho could not aff)rd to go as he hod
something to do at home. Mr. Coffey said, " Oh, he
means to give you 10,0301." On the following day the
Ameer came to him, and Mr. Coffey interpreted what he
said, which was to the effect that the Ameer was deter-
mined not to go to India without Mr. Butt under existing
circumstances, and that ho was willing to give him 10,00 N.
That was the first time that he treated it as a serious
matter.

Mr. Sergeant KinglakO read portions of Mr. Coffay's
evi,lenca bearing upon these points, to which Mr. Butt
replied that there was not a word of truth in it.
Sir J. Graham--Did you state to Mr. alangies that if
tho Court of Directors did not make tho concession which
you proposed on the part of Ali Moorad, it would be your
duty to bring the matter before.Parliibment !
Mr. Butt—Thiquostionably not in any conversation.
Sir J. Graham—What was the object of your conamani-
cation ?

Mr. Butt—To obtain a speedy answer.
Sir J. Graham—Mr. Mangles stated that what he un-
derstood you to say was, that if the Court of Directors did
not make the concession you demanded on the part of Ali
Moora,,l, it would be your duty to bring the matter before
Parliament. Is the fact correctly stated by Mr. Mangles ?
Mr. Butt—l told Mr. Mangles that unless the case was
arranged it would be brought before Parliament. I made
that statement on the authority of Mi. Vernon Smith. I
am almost certain that I never said I should bring the
matter before Parliament myself.
Sir J. Graham—Had you the control of the Parliamen-
tary proceedings at that time ?
Mr. Butt—l might have assumed them at any time I
liked.
By Mr. Bright—An appeal to Parliament was contem-
plated throughout the proceedings in the event of other
means failing. He suggested that the matter should be
brought before Parliament directly he heard of the case.
From the beginning he thought the appeal to Parliament
was the only plan to be adopted, and any other course
would only be a waste of time. It was upon that
point mainly that he (witness) differed from the other
advisers of the Ameer. There was no other tri-
bunal that ho knew of than Parliament after appeals to
Cannon-row and Leadenhall-street hal fa'lci. Neither
Mr. V. Smith, Mr. Mangles, Sir J. Hoag, nor any other
parson ever complained that he had put a pressure upon
them in reference to the Ameer's claims, which he had no
right to put. Menacing such persons would be the most
certain way of securing failure.
Mr. George Hastings Otway, Q.C., said that ho knew
Mr. Butt. After Trinity Term, 1857, he had some con-
vei Nation with him about going to India. Mr. Batt told
him of some Lilian prince who had come to England to
obtain a restitution of his territory, and that he was
anxious that some person of character should go with him.
He told him that he was to have 10,00 e/. ; and he advised
him to go. Mr. Butt also spoke to Dr. Stokes on the sub-

j ect.
Mr. David Boys, a member of the Irish bar, said that
towards the latter end of June he had a conversation with
Mr. Butt, at his house in Dublin. Mr. Butt told them all
who were assembled there, that he had an offer to go to
India with a native Prince, to advocate his claims there,
and that he wee to have 10,000/. Mr. Butt coasultel Dr.
Stokes on the subject.
Captain Keys, an officer in the Indian army, said he
remembered a conversation between Ali Moored and Mr.
Butt in the first week of July, 1857. Mr. Butt told him
to ask the Ameer whether he had sent a message that Mr.
Coffey had been cheating him. The Ameer said, no. Mr.
Butt then asked him whether it had been represented to
him that money had been spent on his behalf fcr the
purpose of securing Parliamentary influence, and the
Ameer said it had not. Mr. Batt then told him that
if any one made such representations to him that they
would be false, and if money was so spent it would ruin
his cause, and that if it was done Mr. Butt would have
nothing to do with him. The Ameer replied that he was
not so deficient in sense as to believe such tales as that.
Mr. Butt then caused the Ameer to be asked whether Mr.
Coffey still retained his confidence, when the Ameer said
lie did.
By Mr. Bouverie--Nuthing was said by the Ameerabout
any payment to Mr. Butt.
Mr. James Coffey was called and examined by the
chairman—He and his two brothers, with Mr. Butt,
were engaged in the Ameer's case. He never had any
conversation with either of his brothers in reference to
remuneration to be given to Mr. Butt for his services
on behalf of the Ameer. He never heard that remunera-
tion was proposed to be given to him until within the
last Efortnight. In July, 1857, Mr. Butt told him that
he had an offer to go to India with the Ameer,
a recent
and 3 he concluded that it was
arrange-
ment.witne Hd
did
toldn ot
vni ta for past Fier-
hihmoarth
itnyhtehiwoags
tthoathaivaedlaoae,CdOOL.imbitrot
conclude that it was
vices.Ed wa r d
,Iwn a a none
thereof
ahaiys cr loliVtree ;fiat Tcr, se
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eti
nh
we
a.
witness
brother
Edward ,was there any reference to payment for Alr.
lectie'r he had written to
into a longcomplaining of his
his brother Edward
Butt's past parliamentary
explanation f s
ae r
letter
Mr. that certain matters had been concealed from him
by Mr. Butt, a knowledge of which induced him to change
his opinion, and to exonerate his brother from blame.
The committee shortly after adjourned till. to-morrow
12 o'clock.