The Sun.
London, England, 1803-04-29 00:00:00

CAPE OF COOD 1-10i'E..

Lord POLICSTONE rose, pursuant to the no.
tree' he had to move for certain Papers, with
a view of obtaining Information respelling, the
Events that have occurred at the Cape of Good
1-lope. Ile vvi,hed, before lie.mide the Motion, to
observe thai he had no wish, by this Motion, to
interfere with the Negotiations which were now
carrying on between the G.rvernMent of this Coun„
try and france ; nor hitd be any wish to call for any
Information which, under the present circumstances
His Majesty's Ministers might think it improper to
ve ; though, perhaps,it might not be improper if the
ifon,e were torcall for such information, with a view
of rescuing the business out of the weak hands in
which it was now }laced. But as it was not his
wish to tit ge on a dir.ussiori upon the general subj.eB
of the Negotiation, if. His Majesty's Ministers
would say that the produaion of the Papers he now
called for, would in any degree interfere with the
Negotiation that was pending, he would immediate,
lv withdraw his Motion, and drop it altogether.
if. however, this assurance was not given, he would
persist in the MotiOn. There was another thing
which he wished to premise, and that was, that in
discussing this subjeti, he should be obliged tore_
fer to u species of information which he was sorry
to be obliged to rt.t,:r to, viz. the French Papers.
Considering the ignorance in which the Public had
been for some time kept, upon what was going
for Ward, Gentlemen must either be content to know
nothing, or to have recourse to the French Papers
for the official documents which they contained. The
reason why he wished the produEtion of the Orders

which had been sent out relative to the Care of Good •
Hope was,; that the House should really know what
the fa& was. He had heard that at differentlimes
different Orders had been sent out : at. one time-it was.'"
determined to give it up, and at another it Was tir'be--
kept, without any reason whatever being assigned far'
it. After the signature of the Treaty of Peace, orders
were sent out to deliver up the Cape; afterwards,-
in the month of Oaober last, when there was a con-
siderable ferment in consequence of the Invasion of
Switzerland by France, orders were sent 'Out that
the Cape shoohl not be given up. He did not know
these circomstances from any offi9ial account. pub-
lished by His Majesty's Ministers, but from the ac-
counts published in the French Papers. In point of
fact we did not keep the Cape—it was a kind of re.
capture, and there was a regular capitulation. He
was anxious that the country should be acquainted
with all the frets upon this subjett, because it proved
such a wavering in the Councils of this Country,
that the
_House had a right to full information upon
the subject. There was another reason why he wish-
ed for the production of the orders which had been
sent out, and the dispatches which had been received,
and -that was, to have an opportunity of comparing
dates. He wanted to compare the date of the Dis-
patches which informed Ministers" of the detention
of the Cape, .with the date of His Majesty's Mes.-
loge to that House, because he did believe that
those Dispatches conduced to the Message, and the
consequent Armament. The King's Mes Sage was::
delivered on-the Bth of .March, stating that discus-
sions were pending between this Country and France,
and that Armaments were preparing in the Ports of
France and Holland. - The French Official Paper de,
nied that any discussions were pending, and indeed
he did not see what discussions could be going on
except with regard to the Cape. As to the Arma..,
ments in the French Ports, they were nothing more
than had been carrying on . for some time. But it. 1,
was generally supposed that the discussions were re.
lathe to the Island of Malta. Upon this point he
wished to observe, that in the expose of the French
Government, in which they gave an account of the
"situation of the Country, it was stated that the
English still retained possession of Alexandria and
Malta, but that the Ships which were to convey home
the Garrisons of those places, hail arrived in the
Mediterranean. In the correspondence between
Sir A. Ball and Mons. Busy, it
,was contended by
the latter, that the English had, as long ago as the
month of June last, consented that the Grand Master
should be eleaed by the Pope, which had been done;
and that as 'to the guarantee of the great Powers
of •Europe, they were to he solicited to guarantee
the independence of the Island, but that such a
guarantee was not absolutely necessary. He did
not state this aS his opinion upon this, question, be.
cause this was not the proper time to enter into it,
though he had formed a decided opinion upon it.
He did not urge this with a view to extra& in.
formation from Ministers, but to shrew that the
discussion could not be about Malta, and cause.
courtly to strengthen his argument for the pro-
duaion of the papers relative to the Cape of Good
Hope. He again repeated, that if ,Ministers would
state, that any Public inconvenience would arise
from the produaion of the information he required,
he would not press his motion, but if they did not
state that, he should move,

" That there he laid betbrc. this I louse a Copy, or Copies,
of all Orders sent to the Cape of Good Hope, respeding the
surrender of that Colony, since the signatta,: of the Treaty
of Peace with the French Republic,. together with a Copy,
or Copies, of all Dispatches relative to the Surrender or l)e.
tention of that Colony', as received by the Commanders of
British Forces by L and or Sea there, aniL the tinies when they
weir received from His Majesty's Ilinistcrs.
" Also, an 2,cLount of all 15iscussion, it any, which has
taken place between His Majesty's Nlinisteis and the French
Government, respelling that Colony, since the sigmiture of
the Treaty, previous to the last order sent out for the sur.
render or the same."

TheCHANCELLOR of ale. EXC HEQUE R said,
the Noble Lord must .forgive him if he,(iliserved,
iliac there was a strange inconsistency between his
4ecl,atation at the commencement of his speech, and
► the arguments which he had tAed in the course of
it—The Noble Lord stated begi'libitig of his
speech, that he did not wish. to•fi.ring forlttard in his
motion the general points which tiNtiflie supposed
to be in discussion at present between this Country
;u France, more especially as an Hon. Gentleman
had given notice of a Motion which would embrace
the whole subject. After making this declaration,
the Noble Lord bestowed a conSiderable pari of his
speech to prove thit Me only subjea in dispute
between. this Country and France must be the Cape
of Good Hope, and in the concluding part of his
Motion, he-desired to know what were the dis.
cushions going on between this Country and Frike
relative to the Cape. So that the Noble Lord first
declared that he did not want to extract information
respecting the discushiOns now going on; then' he
endeavoured to prove that the only discussion going
on must be about the Cape ; 'artcl lastly 'he moved,
for an account of the discussions which were going on
respeding the Cape. He was, therefore, he thriught,
justified in stating, that there was a considerable
degree of inconsistency between the professions-and
_the Speech of the Noble Lord. But surely if the
Noble Lord had been aware of the general accepta.
tion of the notice which had been given by an Hon.
Member (Col. PATTEN), which embraced every Ob.
jet of public concern, he would have abstained
from any specific Motion. He really had enter_
tained a hope.that, under the present circumstances,
such Motions as the present would not have been •
made. He was by no means-dispoied to deny that
the subject to which the Noble Lord's Motion re.
ferred, was one upon which the' House had a right
to exped Information and
,gx:plltlation. It was
one. upon .which. His Majetty.'s Ministers were
anxious to give information, when it could be done
Without prejudice to the Public Service. With this
view of the subject he could not
,consent to negative
the Motion : on the other hand, lie cOuld not accede
to it, because it would require ex,Aanations that
,could not be given under the present_Circumstances,
without inconvenience to the.Pubile Service, Aie
should therefore move the Order of the Day, or the
previous question; he was inclined to prefer the
former, because he could not approve of the form of
the Motion. He should therefore move the ,Oitkr
of the Day, declaring again, that there was
clination on the part of His Majesty's Ministers-to
keep back any information that could throw any
light upon the subjea, when that information could

'he properly given, With regard to the form of the
Motion, he suggested to. the Noble Lord whether
it would not be better to put it into the form elan
Adaress to His Majesty.

Lord FOLKSTONE said, if it was more con.
sistent with the fOrMs of the House, he had no ob-
jeetion to move it in the shape of an Address.
Mr. WINDHAM said, he merely rose to re-
mark, in answer to wbathad-fallen from the Right
Hon. Gentleman, who had censured his Noble Friend
for some supposed inconsistency in his Speech, that
there appeared to'him no ground for such a charge.
His /46131C.Frien4lid not say, that he would not
press hitoMotifin,if it had any connelion with the
discussion ving on between this .Country -and
France, he had merely said, that he would not press
fur the disclosure of any information. that might be
prejudicial to the Public Interest. He was there-
fore at liberty to conjeCture what were the points
now in negotiation. With regard to the notice
which had been given by an Hon. Member, he did
not consider that as any argument against his Noble
Friend's Motion, on the contrary, if the general
subject was to be discussed,, it was a strong rcasdn
why as much previous information should be ob.
tained as possible. If Ministers would state that
the produftioti of this Infortnation'would he itTu.
riot's, in that case the House must wait until the
proper time when the Information could be given,
resting, in the mean time upon the Responsibility
of Ministers.

Lord 1-I.4WKESBURY said, he was not in the
House at the commencement of the Noble Lord's
speech, but certainly he had very se.tious objeffions
to the Motion as it was Worded, and conneded with
what he had heard of the Noble Lord's speech. He
had stared that it was not his intention to embarrass
the Negotiation, and yet the latter part of the Mo.
tion went to call for information respecting the dis-
cruisions relative to the Cape. Now if this was one
of the silbjeas now under discussion, as the Noble
Lord supposed, it would be impossible to produce
the information. required by the Motion, without
going into explanations of other points which might
be in discussion. He did hope that under the
present circumstances, detached. Motions of this
sort would :not have been brought forward.---
The House' and ,
the Country had a right to ex
,pea
pea all the information that could be given as to
the way in which the afttirs of the Country had
been managed for some time past. But the way of
obtaining that information, and of forming a good
judgment upon it was, to have the whole subjed
before them at once, and not by taking up detached
and uncenneded points. Conformably with that
principle he thought it would have been better to
wait until a communication was made, or until some
general motion was made which would'bring the
whole, subjea at once before the House. He begged
before he sat down, to observe, in reply to what
had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman who
spoke last, that his Right Hon. Friend had not said
the production of the papers moved for would be
prejudicial, he had merely said, that the production
of those Papers might lead to discussion and ea_
planation which might be productive of Public In-
convenience. It was not proposed to negative the
Motion, it might therefore be brought forward at,
any future time.
Lord FOLKSTONE spoke shortly in reply, he
said, he was not bound by any notice which might
have been given by any other Member, and ob,
served, that great inconvenience might result from
the praffice of giving notices of Motions.

Mr. FOX said, that there was.no want of can-
doux, as he conceived, imputable to .the. Noble
Lord who had brought forward the Motion now,
for the manner in which he had done it ;• but al-
though he felt that impression, he could not support
the Motion at present, and herose for the purpose
of stating in a kw words, why he should concur in
'the motion for the previous question, 'or in' any
other that Might he the beer iniide of setting it
aside for the present. IN agreed with the Noble
Lord in what he had stated about the Cape. It
‘,4s a subjea;fit to be examined—he apprehended
tlfat everybody was ready to agree to that prop°.
t;itii n. litirthe qUestion was, whether that exami-
nation Should be on this day or. oot ? If the House
had agreed to the Motion fhr an Inquiry into the
State of the Nation, then the Inquiry now pro.
posed would have been fit as a part of that general
Inquiry, ; because that would be entering into the
, detail of a matter, the principle of which had been
admitted. But whether in the present state of the
Nation, the liOuse °ugh; now to enter into an
Inquiry into the conduct of the King's Ministers,
respeeting the Cape.,..,-whether it was the best 'mode
to take a view of that'question, as the Noble L rd's
Motion pointed out,.or to wait until the House had
'decided on the general question of an Inquiry into
the State of the Nation, was for the House to de.
termine: Now, upon that point, he had. no (lA.
cult)! whatever. There was another. consideration
which was, in his opinion, preliminary to this
The general State of the Nation, in the first place ;
secondly,
.perhaps, the conduct which led to the
situation in which. we are.—These general points
ought, as he conceived, to be disposed of, before
any question in detail should be discussed. This
appeared to. him to be obvious. If it should be
the opinion of the House, it is not fit at this mu-
ment to enter into an Inquiry into the State of the
Nation, then, undoubtedly, the present Motion
will'have been premature, inasmuch as it must be
improper to enter on a detailed part of an Inquiry,
the whole of which should, in the opinion of the
House, have been unfit-.-if the whole ought to be
tiegativq, undoubtedly a part oUit could not pro.
krlY he efitertained. If, on the other hand, the
House should agree to institute an Inquiry into the
State of the, Nation, there this Motion, as a part of
the detail of that Inquiry, would beCome a very
proper and a very important part. As to the ge-
neral' subject of Inquiry; his opinion was, as it
generally had been, that the House, of Commons
ought not to be timid in asking questions of Mi.
nisters, neither should it screen itself from the exe-
cution of its duty by desiring Ministers,
and rely.
on their responsibility, to do theirs. He had
al 'ays been of opinion, that the !louse .should take
spun itself the task of advising the Crown in almost
all cases .whatever of difEcuity.therefore if tie
House should, as he was inclined to wish, enter
into an I.tquiry into the State of the Nation, this