The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-20 00:00:00

MARCH 20, 1858.

would be dissolved. It might be replied that it would
rest upeen Indian revenue alone, but he had shown that
long ago, when the Company was a trading company,
the doctrine was recognised that England was bound to
come for ward in seasons of exigency. He knew that
the argument he was now urging was not a popular one,
but be knew also that the noble earl at the head of the
Government did not wish that Parliament should legis-
late is the dark, or that any doubt should exist as to
the effect of the law they were now passing. He had
high authority in support of his views, for the present
Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the debate upon the
India Bill on Feb. 18, said :
" Let me remind the house of the bin now on the table
for raising money for the service of India, and of the effect
on our finance, and on Indian finance, of the proposal of
Government. It is idle any longer to distinguish between
English and Indian finance. If the President of the Indian
Council, a Queen's Mitiistei in Downing-street, should find
it necessary to raise money by a public loan to pay her
Majesty's troops in India, it will be idle when thedividends
are due upon that loan to pretend.to assert that he will be
able to say, if the means are not at hand, The Exchequer
of India is empty, and the revenue of India is alone liable.'
Every gentleman will see in his own mind that such a dis-
tinction as this between the finances of India and the
finances of England cannot be retained for a moment, and
that a blow on British credit at its very source, ansl 'where
the tide is highest, is infallible-aad inevitable."
The right hon. gentleman who had used this language
had expressed in the moat distinct and irrefragable man-
ner the csiac'u ions to which he (Lord Monteagle) had
else come. He could not understand, indeed, by what
process of rea-oning any hon.
Lentleman could satiety
inns. f that the responsibility would not fall upon this
country if there were any deficiency in the revenue -of
India which the Gevernment had not the power of sup-
plying by taxation there. This was a point that required
to be clearly explained, because the Government had no
right to leave those who lent tdoney for India in any
doubt as to the obligatiom for repktineut. He had, thought
it hie duty to address these observations to their lord-
ships, but he would not ask the noble earl for one mo-
ment to postpone the bill, the great importance of which
he freely admitted. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH (who from tanning
ifs back on the gallery was occasionally very indistinctly
heard) said—lf I understand aright the object of the mea-
sure which was proposed by the late Government, and
the object of the measure to be proposed by her Majesty'.
present Government, it is to give to India the benefit of
a cheaper and better government, and if that object
should bo accomplished, undoubtedly the danger to this
country from being called on to assist India in her peeun.
nHrY difficulties
Whatultieswou
Ind ldunbdeerstato be the duty of
very much diminished.
ar, h
the pereon placed at the head of Indian affairs in
this country, whoever he may be, is, that he should
(iae
endeavour so to reduce the expenditure in India as to
make that expenditure come within the revenue. (Hear,
hear.) That is undoubtedly his first duty, and above all
things he must desire, and I trust will succeed in reliev-
ing this country from any burden on account of Indio.
(Hear, hear.) My lords, though the difficulty is very
great, I venture to look forward with Borne degree of
hope to the ultimate result. I recollect that when, neatly
30 years ago, I undertook the duties of the same office
which I now hold the pecuniary difficulties we had to
encounter were similar to those now exp:rienced, and
then, with the assistance and under the advice of the
late Duke of Wellington, in less than two and a half
years we carried into effect a reduction in the expendi-
ture atuonnting to 1,800,0001., a liege portion of whici
was permanent. (Hear, hear.) N o doubt the pecuniary
difficulties arising tali of the present condition of India
are very great. We are compelled, and will be compelled,
to ernpley in that country more then 40 additional bat-
talions of European troops; at least 10, if not many
more, additional regiments of European cavalry ; arid
also a large force of European ar portion of the
army which was formerly in the haulm of the natives.
Undoubtedly this causes a treat addition to the expen-
diture, for the expense of European soldiers is very
nearly equal to three limos that of the native troops. It
is, therefore, perfectly impos-ible for us to effect an
equalisation cf the revenue and expenditure without a
very great reduction cf the native army. (Hear, hear.)
At the present moment that which is passing in my mind
with regard to the army of Berge! is a reduction of 64
battalions ; arid nay noble friend may depend noon it
that if I am to be at the head of this great work, I shall
do it with the determination of succeeding if success be
possible. (Hear, hear.) I know it will be necessary to
make a great reductionnecessary of expenditure, and I am pre-
pared to find that this will be an act of great unpopu-
larity. That will be to me, however, a matter of very
small account. ([leer.) I shall proceed, as I proceeded
before, in the way I have mentioned to your lordehipe,
by endeavouring in every dir ction to make all such re-
ductions as app.osr to me can be made co, sietently with
the pubic intsrese (Hear, hear.) Nly noble friend ob-
terred that this loan differs altogether from the loans
raised in this country—ttat the loans raised in this coun-
,ry aro for a definite old .or. bat that thin is mot, being
for the general expenditure of Ir.dia. But, though dif-
fering in its general character from the loans raised fo-
the service a this country, this loan entirely agree,
with the power of raring money which from time he-
memorial leas been extended to the East India Company.
(Hear, hear.) The East India Company has always had
the power of raising 7,000 COO/. in India, of which bor-
rowing purer a portion remains at the present moment
unexhausted. At this m meat there remains the
poser of borrowing about 1,000,0001. No doubt the
Company has been favoured with a large extension of
the power of borrowing, but all times this has seemed to
Parliament to be perfectly consistent with the public
interests. (Hear.) It is ex remely probable that cir-
cnuntances;arising out of present events may render it
necessary for the Government of India to depend alto-
gether fora time on the means of borrowing, and not on

revenue. (Hear, hear.) My eoble friend han looked
back far 20 years, and t ae mention, d years in which
there has been a purplus of 5,000,0001 and other years
in which the deficiency ban been as high as 15,000,000/. ;
but my noble friend must recollect that those 20 years
embraced four of war with Affehenistan, two of war in
the Punjab, and also, what I certain'y
ca snot call a
costly ear, that of kiei..do. The result a these t ears
was to add many millions o the expenditure. Butif for
the last 10 years of the period ray noble friend has re -
fe-red to there has been apparently added a sum of
7,000,0001., as he states, to tte exdenditure, he should
recollect that during that time t be balances in the
Indian treasury have increased 3,300,0001. ; so that, in
point of fact, the t:Aal increase of debt wee only
3,700,0001. ; and if against the increase of debt he will
place 4,000.0001. or 5,000,000/. expended on public
works, some of which are of a lucrative nature, he will
find tbat the revenue during these last 10 years stands
b tier than it did in the period before. (Hear, hear.)
My noble friend has gone into details with respect to
the lawl and ether portions of the revenue of India. I
speak from recollection, but when I was in India I con-
sidered this question of the lend revenue as closely as
possib'e, and I think the result of myinquiries as regards
Bengal was that the land revenue might be increased
about 100,0001. a-year. As regards the revenue t om
opium, no one can look to it without apprehension, for
various circumstances occurring from time to time may
affect the amount received. I should have mentioned
among the things that affected the Indian revenue in the
period of 10 years to which I referred, the war with
China, which though in one sense it cost India nothing,
occasioned great loss to its revenue, the trade in opium
having been reduced to the extent of 50 per cent. At the
present moment the amount derived from opium is very
large, and the demand for it seems to increase greatly,
for it is an extraordinary fact that, notwithstanding the
large amount of opium now sent to China, the emend
is still extending in that direction. (Hear.) Now, I must
say, on the supposition that we ale enabled to give good
government to India, that I do not see why we should
despair of seeing India hereafter raised to a state of great
prosperity. Itis the most exteneive empire and the
richest in the world. It is traversed in all directions by
noble rivers, which can be made navigable by art. We
are now ti aversing it in all directions by railroads, and
I cannot understand why, with all our European energy
and knowledge and oivilisation, we should not make
it
India as productive as was in the time of Arungz. be.
Ho derived a very large revenue from the portion of In-
dia which he had—as large a revenue, I believe, as we
now derive from the whole coun.try. (Hear.) I confi-
dently look forward to the realisation of that object,
wbicb, if it can be accomplished, will be particularly gra-
tifying to my noble friend, who very naturally takes a
fiscal view of this question, and considers mainly in what
manner the revenue of India is to he raised. I know
that a government gui led by intelligence will do more
for the good of the people than one that acts with injuri-
one parsimony on the one hand,i or unpardonable extra-
vagance on the other, and so mpoveripshroeepotshiengcotuonptrayri
(Hear, hear) I will only venture to say further that I
hope that before a fortnight has elapsed my noble friend
giving
iaivml
nesges et
good
Itheaet
tiwg
roeevehe
thatar ny em teawnkitlei nt
to
setlned
epsthfeor effect, not only of
i
as but of grea:ly im-
proving its revenue. (Rear, hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE—I recollect that at the last
noble earl opposite on the very
stage of the bill my noble friend near me (Lord Mont-
eagelecomplimented the
satisfactory statement which be then made with regard
to India ; but I cannot help thinking that my noble
friend has not to-night followed the text on which le
then preached. (Hear, hear.) There is no doubt that
the finances of India require great attention, and I be-
lieve that a reform in them might be most advanta-
geously carried ou'. 1 the*, even with regard to the
system of accounts, much remains to be done under that
heal. The income of last year has of course suffered
from the rebellion, but I believe come compensation for
that will be found in the fact of the Company having
been released from some of its liabilities. I do trust that
in the reorganisation of the army, although I quite agree
that it will be necessary to increase very much the num-
ebnerthoef Europeanreduce
uoops, it will not be found impossible
on the expenses of the
Indian army. (Hear.) But of one thing I am quite
in and
eeconomy must depend
on rt
the ,
le
(Hear, hear.) If
you once encourage the local Government to believe that
ceaelthati s
Government, that theef realledia.
they have facilities for raising money, not on the secu-
rity of the Indian revenue, but on the security of the
Crown and the Parliament of this country, there will be
encouragements to a lavish expenditure, which will not.

take place if they find they are checked by the difficulty,
of raising loans merely on the security of the Indian Go-
vernment itself. (Hear.) I think this is a most inapor-
twit consideration. The noble lord referred to certain
assistance which had been given by this country to
India at a former period. No one can doubt that cir-
cumstances may arise in which this country might think
fit in some way or other to afford assistance to India ;
but I don't nuderstand how the form of Government at
home can in the slightest degree affect that question. It
appears to me that it would be entirely unreasonable to
raise money now at a higher rata on the security of the
Indian revenue, and then to look afterwards to the Eng-
lish Government for the repayment of the advance. I
believe that could not have been the intention of Sir R.
Peel when he stated, as he did on one occasion, that it
might be necessary for this country to come to the
assistance cf India in a time of great difficulty. I really
have nothing more to Pay in defence of this bill. The
noble earl upon whom has devolved the responsibility
of conducting it through your lordships' heave has dis-
pose lof the arguments raised against the measure. I
entirely deny that by this bill we glee in the slightest
degree any collateral security further than the revenues
of India. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—The noble earl is
quite right. Neither by this bill, nor on any ether
ground, can India evade in the slightest degree the lia-
bility thrown upon it to repay the whole of this loan.
As regards what Sir R. Peel appears to have said, I was
in India at the time he made the speech to which refe-
rence has bean made, and I recollect reading that speech
with complete astonishment. What be could have meant
I cannot understand. I felt .1 was then thoroughly inde-
pendent. I had to pay my own way, and I never had the
slightest chance of obtaining assistance from this coun-
try. What assistance Sir R. Peel could have contem-
plated, I repeat, I cannot understand.
Earl GREY—My lords, I rejoice to find that, with a
single tan ption, there is a general repudiation by your
lordships of the doctrine that by this bill any engagement
whatever can be implied on the partof Parliament to make
ap any deficiency in the revenue of India to provide for
the interest of the loan about to be made. (Hear.) I think
there is no obligation, either moral or otherwise, imposed
on this country to pay the debts of India. If it were
otherwise, what would be the consequence t If you adopt
the principle that this country may be answerable for
debts contracted by India, you must follow it up by
taking care that the whole expenditure of the Indian
Government shall be brought under the consideration of
Parliament, and Parliament must exercise a close scru-
tiny over that expenditure. (Hear, bear.) But more
than that. If taat principle is to be applied to India,
must it not be extended to other dominions of the Crows!
(Hear, hear.) And remember there are derninion3 of
the Crown—such tat Trinidad, the Mauritius, and others,
which do not possess any representative Legislatures. I
contend that the principle is one which we cannot too
Audi iusly guard against admitting either ditectiv cr in-
directly. (Hear.)' I bold that the revenue of India, and
the revenue of India alone, is pledged by this bill.
(Hear, hear.) There are reasons of policy which make
it desirable that English security should not extend to
loans contracted on behalf of India. I think it desir-
able that there should be a great number of persons
in this country who would take an interest in seeing
that the affairs of India are so managed as to con-
duce to the welfare of the native population under our
rule and to the interests of the mother country, and
who would exercise a check on the misgovernment
of India by which the security of private property
might be injurer'. I am persuaded that if Ittl;a,
is properly governed the security it affords for
this loan is a very good one. (Cheers.) I have heard with
great satisfaction the views stated by the noble earl op-
p site (the Earl of Ellenborough). I believe with him the
resources of India are so great that, if properly adminis-
tered, they will furni.h ample means of repaying the debt.
I was glad to hear tbat he looks to the poesibility of re-
ducing the expenditure of India, especial :y the military
exp 'nditure. (Hear.) So, from the fearful ealaoaittes

. e
1 consequent upon the mutiny, we may at least derive this
benefit, that in future tho policy pursued towards India
' will be very different from what it has been heretofore.
We have hithertJ kept up a disproportionate army in
India, not so much for internal purposes as with a view
to meet imaginary external dangers. The real source of
our calamity in India and of our future, danger, is the
warlike policy en which we have acted. I trust we shall
now feel the necessity of keeping our army in India, and
particu!arly the native army, within moderate limits;
and we sea I then adopt the principle of not meddling in
the affairs of our neighbour,' a course which has drawn
us into expensive wars and been the cause of all our
diffieul ies. If the money thrown away on the Affgban
war had been applied to internal improvements,. how fir
it would have gone to increase the security of our posi-
tion in the country and to e,tablieh our influence in the
central parts of Asia. (near, Neer.)
The Maiquis of CLNNIItICA.RDE rernind,ml the
house that in ]773 L1r..1 North comp'aintd of the con-
duct of the East India Company being so oppressive
towards the natives that it was absolutely necessary to
subject it to the control of the Crown, and at the same
time proposed a loan from Parliament to the Company
of 1,400,0001, No doubt, the resources of India, if
properly developed, were fully equal to make it one of
the richest governments, as it was by nature about the
richest empire, in the world. But to attain that end a
very different system of administration must be in-
troduced into that country from that which bad pre.
railed wrier the East India Company. The a ble earl
had referred to the reduction of the army of Bengal, but
the army of Bombay required almost as much looking
into it as what was left of the Bengal army, Indeed, to
effect great reductions the army of all the presidencies
must urv!ergo rnvisior. Nor, indeed, ought their eco-
nomy to be c infined to the military service. The sala-
ries now paid to the civil service of India were in many
instances in the highest degree exorbitant. If the Ad-
ministration of that country was to be put upon a proper
footing, with a view to its being permeated throughout
by British capital and British enterprise, and to its
being really civilised, th:y must establish better larve
and an improved judicial system. This, however, :souls] '
lead to a considei able increase of expense, the means of
defraying which c tuld be supplied only by c vr(ful re-
trenchment in the other branches of the Government.
The noble earl toot( too bright a view of the pro'edele
prosperity of India fir some time ; and when he stated
that at the present moment there was such a demand
for opium in China that the value of that ding had
largely increased, and consequently that our opium
revenue had greatly advanced, he should not forget that
this growing demand in China would most likely induce
the Government of that empire to alter a policy which,
though beneficial, perhaps, to this country, was yet per-
fectly absurd in it,e!f. English credit and English reve-
nue were therefore intimately connected with questions
of Indian fluaLco.
The bill was read a third time and passed.
Their lordships then adj iurneel.