The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-14 00:00:00

some other occupant of the woolsack. (Laughter.) The
object of the bill was in the first instance to give immu-
nity to reports of Parliamentary proceedings, and next
to protect the public press to a certain extent in the
publication of the proceedings at meetings of a particu-
lar description. Were their lordships prepared to say
that in, secula seculorunt they would invite reporters to
attend, and would allow reports of their proceedings to
go forth to the public; but that they would leave
the proprietors of newspapers liable to ba sued by
civil action, or imprisoned upon criminal information,
for the faithful discharge of this duty ? Did the pro-
posal to change this state of things involve so vicious a
principle that their lordships would refuse a second
reading to the bill ? Would they refuse to en-
tertain any proposition for giving protection to the pub-
lic press in the publication of faithful reports of prtceed-
ings at public meetings, and were the proprietors of
newspapers to despair of obtaining any remedy or redress
for the grievances of which they now complained t His
noble and learned friend had greatly misunderstood the
object of the second clause, for he (Lord Campbell) had
always regarded as wholly inadmissible the claim that
complete immunity should be given with regard to
everything that was said at every public meeting, and
the clause applied exclusively to cases where no loss or
damage was sustained. He foresaw what the fate of the
bill would be, but he had discharged his duty in bring-
ing the subject under their lordships' consideration.
Their lordships then divided, when there were—
Content 7
Not Content
Majority' —23
The bill was consequently lost.
' The house adjourned at 9 o'clock.

uttered in and debate published, an action might now be
brought against the newspaper, and the party aggrieved
would have an opportunity of vindicating his character,
or the newspaper might justify the alleged slander. if
the statement were correct the newspaper might
plead the truth in justification, and it would be an
answer to the action. He could suppose a member
of Parliament acting honourably and faithfully in
the discharge of his duty, and yet if this bill passed he
might commit a great wrong and an irreparable injury
against an individual. He might mention a case whch
had recently occurred before the Privy Council. Pro-
ceedings were taken there in which certain respectable
merchants of the City of London were charged with have
ing been implicated in certain slave trade transactions.
The matter was discussed before the Privy Council,
which took time for consideration. He had reason to
know that the publication of these proceedings was in-
jurious to the credit and character of these persons, and
it was only when they were entirely acquitted from all
partic;pation in this infamous traffic—when strong obser
vations were passed upon the proceedings of the Crown,
which was saddled with the costs—that their character
was vindicated. Now, suppose some member of their
lordships' house, whose bosom burnt within him at any
mention of the traffic in slaves, should assume that some
reTectable merchant had been implicated in the traffic,
and should break out jute indignant reproach at the con-
duct of that party. As long as it was confined to that
or the other House of Parliament the injury would not
be great, but on the following morning all that had
been said flew to every part of the c untry, it was taken
tip by all the country newspapers, and the character of
these perfectly innocent persons would be completely
destroyed, and they might be irreparably injured. If
this bill were passed they would have no opportunity of
vindicating their characters, and all the redress that
could be afforded to them would be the insertion in all
the newspapers which bad published the slander of some
letter contradicting it. Perhaps the newspapers might
say that from press of matter they were unable to insert
such a letter, and the consequence of this measure which
his noble and learned friend deliberately proposed to that
house would be that the persons would be irretrievably
ruined, and wholly without a remedy. He could not but
feel that thit would be a most dangerous innovation and
a most mischievous change of a law which, even accords
iog to the evidence adduced before the select com-
mittee of their lordships, had afforded sufficient protec
tion to the proprietors of newspapers, at the same time
that it bad not left the characters of individuals wholly
defenceless. (Hear.) With reference to the other part
of the bill, which related to the reporting of proceedings
at public meetings, it was necessary to advert to the
distinction between oral and written slander. It was
perfectly true that for words spoken no action could be
maintained unless they charged some indictable offence,
with the single exception of cases in which it could be
shown that special damage had resulted fiestas the speak-
ing of the words. His noble and learned friend did not
propose to abolish that distinction ; indeed, tee report of
the select committee condemned any such alteration.
That report said,—
To meet this objection it has been proposed to do away
with the distinction between verbal and written slander, or to
make the speaker at a public meeting al ays liable for all
true printed reports of his speech, but we think that such al-
terations of the law are unnecessary and would be inexpe-
dient."

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SrEAYER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Caledonian Railway (Dalmarnock branch) Bil
wa4 read a third time and passed.
BORDER COUNTIES RAILWAY BILL.

Mr. C. FORSTER moved that the minutes of the evi-
dence taken before the Border Counties Railway Bill in
session 1854 be referred to the committee on group 13 of
Railway and Canal Bile, in reference to the Border
Counties Railway.—Agreed to.
ADMIRALTY PROMISES.

Mr. E, BA.TI: presented a petition from the Rev.
Mr. Mabberley, of Suffolk, stating, that on his making
certain communications to the Admiralty be was to re-
ceive 100,0001.. He had made the communication, but
had not received the mon,y in return. (Laughter.)
ASSIZE ACCO MMODATION.

Mr. M`MA.LION gave notice that he should on this
day fortnight move the appointment of a committee to
inquire into th;3 expediency of increasing the number of
assizes for the disposal of civil business.

THE COUNTY FRANCHISE.
Mr. LOCKE KING gave notice that he should on
this day fortnight move for leave to introduce a bill for
assimilating the borough and county franchise. (Hear

WHITECROSS-STREET PRISON.
Mr. SHERIDAN gave notice that he should on
Thursday move for copies of the correspondence, if any,
that had passed between the city authorities and the
Home-office, relative to the new regulations adopted for
Whitecross-street Prison.

THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER.
Mr. RICARDO gave notice that he should on this
day fortnight present a petition from the inhabitants of
Henloy, complaining of the manner in which the Duchy
of Lancaster was conducting mining operations in the
neighbourhood, and he should move the appointment of
a select committee to inquire into the complaint and
report thereon.

He must be permitted upon the subject of these reports
of public meetings to quote the words of his noble and
learned friend (Lord Campbell) himself—words not tit-
tered in that house, but used in the course of the inquiry
which had given rise to this discussion. His noble and
learned friend said,—
" If this plea is good, a fair account of what takes place
may be published, whatever harm the publication may do to
private character, provided it take place at a meeting of a
publie nature—a aide description, embracing all kinds of
moetiogs, from a county meeting to a parish meeting. At
such meetings things na,y well be said very irrelevant to the
subject in hand, yet very calumnious. In what an unhappy
situation a calumniated person weal I bo if a calumny might
be) ti Wished, and yet he could not bring an action and chal-
lenge t he publishers to prove its truth, !"
Hear.) That was the opinion of his noble and learned
riend, who now proposed to legalise the publication of
all reports of what took place at a meeting lawfully at-
semleled.
Lord CAMPBELL.—Net ee.
The LORD CHANCELLOR.--His noble and learned
/ riend must forgive him. He would find it was so, be-
cause under his qualification no party was entitled to
recover unless he could prove loss and damage. Now,
that, M his noble and learned friend knew, meant pecu•
wary loss and damage ; the consequence of which would
, be that in 99 oases out of 100 the person who was ca
lumniated at a public meeting would be deprived of his
remedy, because he could not show that he bad sue-
, tained such loss and damage. Suppose that a person not
in trade was charged with some gross breach of morality,
or with being guilty of some falsehood—an imputation
upon the character of an honourable man, which was
much more painful and much more destructive to his NEW CHELSEA. BRIDGE.
reputation then if be could show that he had sustained Mr. BRADY asked the Chief Commissioner of Works
damage to the amount of thousands and thousands of if he was aware that foot passengers entering on the new
pounds by the slander. Were they to take so mean a Chelsea bridge were compelled to pass over whether
view of the value of rephtation that it was to be weighed they desired it or not, and then to pay a second toll to
by a quantity of gold ? He trusted that in this country be allowed to return ; and if so, whether he purposed
a man's reputation would never be considered other than taking any steps to remedy the inconvenience?
the dearest of his possessions. It had been suggested Lord JOHN MANNERS said he was aware of the
that the bill should be committed, with the view of intro- arrangements referred to, which were entered into with a
(hieing into it an amendment constituting the person view of consulting the public convenience. (Laughter.)
who published the agent of him who uttered the worde• When he mentioned that 30,000 persons went over Chet-
Of euch a course he could not approve. After the sea New Bridge on Sunday last, the house would see
humorous description' which had been given by a noble that to permit passengers to go partly over the bridge
and learned lord who had left the House of the great and then to return, would be a great public inconve-
number of public meetings which had been omitted from nience. (Hear, hear.) If the public convenience had
the definition contained in this bill, he thought that if the not been consulted by the arrangements that had been
bill ever went into committee hisnoblefriend would find made they would be altered. (Hear, hear.) Enquiries
that the difficulties in it's way were so great as to be in- were being made into the subject.
surmountable even by his great power of overcoming THE PARKS.
obstacles. (Hear.) Under these circumstances he could Mr. WILLIAM EWART inquired of the First Com-
not consistently with his position give a silent vote on miseioner of Public Works if there was any objection to
this subject, nor could he, after the most careful atten- give the public the benefit of an increased number of
Con, accede to the sugeestion of his noble and learned seats round the larger trees in Kensington-gardens and
figsgg. He did not find that there was any real grie- Hyde-park
1 vanes in the existing state of the law. His noble and Lord J. MANNERS said that arrangements had
' learned friend had utterly failed to establish his case, and been made for giving tne accommodation asked for before
be read a second time. the notice of the hon, gentleman was put upon the paper.
therefore
orheeftshro) bill ought not to
A vote would be proposed in the estimates for carrying
Lord CRANWORTH thought that although this bill them out.
might not b 3 adopted in its integrity, it at least con- TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION IN THE
tained the germ and foundation of a proper remedy. As MEDITERRANEAN.
to the reporting of Parliamentary proceedings, he doubted Mr. CRAW FORD asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
very much whether they were not proceeding altogether chequer, whether any arrangements had been concluded
upon a fallacy. He did not believe that the character of or were now under the consideration of Her Majesty's
a person calumniated in Parliament was likely to be
eli.elyßu t for that report he might Government, for extending the Mediterranean System of
damnified by the slander being reported ; on the con- Telegraphs to Alexandria, and for bringing India into
to affordhimthehest means telegraphic communication with this country by the way
to rf s
refutintheg
report
the o
hwaars k
of the Red Sea, or by any other route ; whe her, in tee
never know of the calumny. With regard to the reports event of such arrangements having been resolved upon,
of pubic meetings, it was said that there Lad been no Her Majesty's Government will lay upon the table of
oasis of herl-h p. Teere had been one case, and, in his the House the correspondence in reference thereto I
opinion, it was the duty of their lerdshipe, when the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
principle of the law could not be justified, to act upon a that no arrangements had as yet been concluded to
single instance. It was a great hardship to the publisher effect the objects to which the hon. gentleman referred,
of a Durham newspaper that ho should have to pay but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was in hope',
4001. broinee he had published something which was that in a very short time arrangements embracing all the
actually stated at a public meeting held with reference obj-cts referred to would be concluded. (Hear, hear.)
to the improvemeet of the town of Hartlepool. And Mr. CRAWFORD complained that the Chancellor
what had happened in that instance might, and most of the Exchequer had not informed the hon-e it he would
likely weuld, hepi ea in many others, lie did not, bow- lay the correspondence on the table of tie house, and
ever, think that oral should be treated in the same also if he would lay at the same time en the table of the
manner as written slander. Such a rule would give rise house the estimates for carrying out the undertaking.
to disgratefel pelt fogging, as was exemplified in the law The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be
books of the reigns of James I. and "ries Ie when wee unable to undertake to lay the papers asked f.)r on
many questions were raised as to whether such and such the table becau-e they did not exist, although they pro-
words were not slanderous so as to subject the person bably would at some future stage of the proceedings.
uttering them to au action. in
eee was glad that, whether When the arrangements were concluded he should have
by judge-made law or otherwise we had escaped from no objection to produce them.
those thfficuitie3; and, practically speaking, oral slender Mr. WYLD asked if negotiations wore going on
was not a ground of action. It and been said that there between this country an I Austria for carrying out te-
was little distinction between the act of directing libel• legraphic communication?
lous words to be published and that of uttering suck The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
words orally in public with the knowledge that they would be better if honourable members would
would be published. But under this bill the injured to hero to the rules laid down f,r the guidanc of the
I party would bring his action against the pubhsher, who house in putting questions by first givint notice of
might plead that the report was a true and faithful one, them, and thereby simply confining themselves to the
made without malice. He would not encourage the no• inquiries made, because inconvenience resulted from
tion that they ought to legislate on a mere theory ; but those divergences. He had, no difficulty, however, in
when a certain amount of practical evil had already then answering the question. Arrangements were
resulted from the state of the law it would not be wise pending between her Majesty's Government and the
to overlook what had occurred, and wait till further Austrian Government, but he might be permitted to say
mirchief arose before applying a remedy. He therefore that the part of the original plan giving a monopoly to
hoped that their lordships would read the bill a second Austria did net roan part of the present negotiation.
time. . Mr. CRAWFORD gave notice that he would on this
Lord CAMPBELL rose to reply, when he was in- day week submit a motion on the subject.
terrupted by NATIONAL COLLECTION OF PICTURES.
The Earl of DERBY, who reminded the noble and Lord ELCHO asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
learned lord that ho had already addressed the house at quer whether the Government intended to take any
considerable length, and that on the motion for a second steps, during the present session, with a view to provid-
reading he had no right to a reply. ing increased accommodation for the national collection
Lord CAMPBELL was not aware of any instance in of pictures?
which the courtesy of a hearing in reply had been refused The CSIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
in such a case ; yet if the noble earl was not content with Should .be sorry to say that her Maje-ty's Government
having overwhelming numbers on his side, but insisted would not take steps to increase the accommodation re-
that there should also be no argument, of course there ferred to, but it was not then in his power to say speci-
was no remedy for it. He should be most willing, if rurally what were their intentions in respect. The
the this
the bill was read a second time, to refer it again to a matter could not long remain in its present state, but
committee ; but it should be remembered that the he was unable to give a specific answer to the question.
measure had already been carried by a fair majority
SIR JAMES HUDSON AND MR. ERSKINE.
in the select committee. Under those circumstances
Mr. WISE asked the Under SweeterY for Foreign
would their lordships affirm that it was so vicious in
Affairs whether Sir James Hudson was to remain at
Principle that they could not hope to improve it at
.baniy
Tur n as her Majesty's Envoy Extraordinary and Minis-
subsequent stage ? The powerful speech of the nu a
ter Plenipotentiary and ' it intended ;
; whecner was o
and learned lord, whose Jocular observations had en-
recal the Secretar of Leation, Mr. Erskine, from the
livened a very dull debate, was to a great extent
sa
no
mission 2 y g
favourable to the measure. It had pleased the noble and The CHANCELLOR of the EXC HEQUER said
learned lord to assume that all meetings not included I
there was no intention on the part of her Majesty's Go-
in the third cause, and among others those of Convoca-
'comment to recal Sir James Hudson from Turin. (Hear.
tion, were unlawful, New, it so happwied teat
min the
hear.) Great services were not to be cancelled by an
C'
committee he had himself proposed to include veer.-
act of carelessness, though for the moment it was to be
ti°n—(3 lant4l;),--but ho was out-voted, on the ground
re $ With to Mr.
ratted.g ( ear hear.) respect Erskine,
that it was disrespectful to suppose that anything
p 3112 his conduct,
he had been eailed i order to ex I •
r n .
libellous could fall from the members of so grave
and he had been suspended in consequence.
and venerable a body. His reply to that had been that
he bad heard right rev. prelates use very sharps words ARMY RETURNS.
Mr. BAGWELL asked the Secretary for War when
in the House of Lords. To have enumerated meetings
the . for on the 16th March would be
for the purpose ef raisin., a monument to an illustrious
laid arm moved
general, or the meetings at Exeter Hall, to which refer-
, on t e table of the house ?
a - ' Gen. PEEL said he hoped to be able to comply with
once had been made, might, he thought, have been deemed
indecorous; but, if desirable, they might yet be included the request on Friday next at the latest.
in the bill when in committee. His noble and learned STRAITS OF MALACCA, &c.
friend on the woolsack had done him the honour of re- In answer to Viscount Busty,
ferring to some of the measures which he (Lord Campbell Mr. BAILLIE said that Government would not he
le'
had had the good f•irtune to orijnate and to carry into able to ten n their attention to this sett , ire it till ofsafer k
they being
law, and among others the act for preventing the sale of the termination of the Indian outbrea ,
obscene publications. His noble and learned friend must I somewhat connected with that country.
be aware thai that measure was assailed even with more Mr. HORSMAN thought the matter should be con-
bitterness than the bill now before their lordships, and sidered on its own merits, and expressed
their tt a en-
ridicule. That bill, however, received the sanction of tion to it.
their lordships and of the other house, and it was admit- Sir J. ELPIIINSTONE was at Singapore in 1820,
ted by his noble and learned friend, and by other cmi- and visited it, often during the subsequent 17 years. He
tient lawyers, that it had operated most beneficially. If , never heard any complaints against the convict popula-
the preiomt bill should pries and la come the law of the ' tion. They were indeed a better class of persons than
land, be believed is mug, t receive as high corminendatiun thr: lawless people who emigrated from the
neighbouring
from soma future occupant of the woolsack. It was im- islands and countries. He knew a
lady
at Penang, the
possible to foresee what might happen, and in the course wife of an
official gentleman, who always took her do
of the year this measure might receive the approval of mestlc servants from the convicts—(laughter)—and she

PASSPORTS.
Mr. M. MILNES gave ni•tice that he should on
Friday put a question to the Government relative to the
new pasoplrt regulations adopted in Belgium, and the
inconvenience of obtaining passports at the Foreign-
office.

DISTRESS IN DONEGAL.
Mr. BAGWELL gave notice that he should on
Thursday, the 22d inst., move for a select committee to
inquire into the destitution existing in Donegal.
MILITIA SURGEONS.
Mr. BRADY asked the Secretary for War if a me-
morial bad been received by him from the militia sur-
geons of the embodied regiments, asking to be placed
on a permanent footing ; and, if so, what were the in-
tentions of the Government on the subject
General PEEL said he had received the memorial
referred to, but he regretted to ray ho was obliged to in-
form the memorialists that under present circumstances
he could not accede to increase the present expenses of
the militia amounting to 269,0001. by granting their
request.

EAST INDIA (REVENUES, &c.)
Mr. H. BAILLIE moved for a number cf returns
connected with the East India revenue 4, which were
agreed
,to.