The Sun.
London, England, 1867-02-16 00:00:00

SCOTCH BUSINESS.

Mr. BAXTER said, by request, he would postpone
giving the notice of the Scotch bills to be introduced,
and who was to take charge of them, the Lord Advocate
not having a seat in that house, until next Thursday.

VACCINATION.
Mr. BRUCE asked the Vice-President of tho Committee
of Council on Education whether it was his intention to
re-introduce the Vaccination Bill, as amended by the se-
lect committee last session.
Mr. CORRY said it was his intention to introduce a bill
on the subject, but it would not be a measure identical
with that prepared last session.
ELECTION OF GUARDIANS.

In reply to Mr. A. PEEL,
HARDY said his attention had not been called to
the subject. Ho was not prepared to propose any alteration
of the law on the subject.

THE REFORM BILL.
Sir A. BULLER asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether, upon Monday, the 25th February, ho would
givo any expl.tuation of the measures which the Govern-
ment were pr,ored to propose for the more effectual pre-
vention of corruption at elections.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
on Monday, the 2,5 th, before moving the resolution of
which he had given notice, he should make a statement
which would meet that and other points involved in the
two other questions which stoodon the paper for thateven-
ing as to plurality of votes and the reduced qualification
for counties and boroughs.
THE INSURRECTION IN CRETE.

Mr. GREGORY, on the motion for going into committee
of supply, moved! for an address for copies of any cor-
respondence between the Foreign Office and foreign
governments on the subject of the insurrection in Crete
and the Turkish fortresses in Servia, and of any reports
from our consular agents on these subjects.
Mr. B. COCHRANE seconded the motion.
Mr. LAYAIID regretted that the hon. member for Cial-

way had brought the question before the house, the more
especially as, according to the last information, the special
commissioner who was sent to Crete had succeeded in bring-
ing about a better feeling, and because representatives of
both the Christian and Mahometan population were pro-
ceeding to Constantinople to state their grievances, with a
view to their redress. Still more was it to be regretted
that the hon. gentleman should have used the language
which he did. Instead of being beneficial to those in re-
ference to whom it was spoken, and whom it was intended
to serve, it would have rather the opposite effect; because,
encouraging them with the hope of intervention, it was
calculated to lead them into fresh disaster and fresh suffer-
ing. (Hear.) But, however that might be, the question
which the house had to consider was this—whether the
grievances under which it was alleged they suffered were
so serious as to justify a civil war ? What were those
grievances? The first grievance the Cretans complained
of was a vexatious system of tithes. Another grievance was
the mode of election to the municipal assemblies. The
Christian population were the solo representatives, and if
they allowed themselves to be bribed it was their own fault.
At all events it was no justification for rebellion. What
were their other grievances as stated in their address to the
Sultan ? They stated they were so oppressed with taxa-
tion that they bad little or nothing left for themselves.
The next was that there wore no roads in the island. But
the want of roads was owing to the Cretans themselves,
who, when the Turkish Government sent Mr. Woodward
to construct roads, refused to contribute the necessary
amount of labour. A further grievance was that the mode of
electingpopular assemblies was defective. The fourth griev-
ance was that the oil sellers were also money lenders, and
that there were no banks. The fifth, sixth, and seventh
were more important. If it were true that Christian
evidence was rejected, that was owing to the neglect
of the Turkish Government in carrying out their
promises to the Christian population ; but the Turks, in
order to remedy the grievance, established over the coun-
try tribunals composed of Greeks and Mahometans ; and
in these tribunals Christian evidence ought to be as accept-
able as any other evidence. With regard to the preparatory
schools the matter rested with the Cretans, but the state
of education among the Turks was as good as that of the
Christians under the Government of Greece. In many
cases liberal grants were given by the Turkish Govern-
ment, the Sultan himself being often a contributor. But
it was obvious that those grievances did not cause the re-
bellion. (Hear, hear.) The Cretans acknowledged as much
to the Greek Consul. The various European Governments
were of the same opinion, with the exception of Russia;
but even Baron Brunnow had recently come to the same
conclusion. It was not for the purpose of obtaining the
redress of those grievances that the Cretans rebelled, but
in order to bring about a reaction of the European Powers
in favour of the Greeks. In order to understand the ques-
tion it was necessary to go a little farther back, and he
hoped the noble lord would lay on the table the reports in
the Foreign Office relating to the state of the island of
Crete in 1858. At that time a rebellion was threatened in
Crete, and some grievances were set forth. Sir Henry
Bulwer sent Mr. Longworthy, a gentleman well acquainted
with the language and habits of the people, to wake in-
quiries, and the result of the inquiry was that the griev-
ances had nothing to do with the threatened rebellion, and
that, so far from the Cretans having any cause of com-
plaint against the Turks, the Turks had reason to com-
plain of the Cretans. There was an intrigue going on in
Crete at the time, and the head-centre of rebellion
was the Greek Consul. Mr. Longworthy's report
satisfied not only the English Ambassador, but
the French and Russian Ambassadors, and the result
was that the exequatur of the Greek consul was re-
voked. For eight years the island enjoyed peace. But
last year there was a great war in Europe, and it was
thought a fitting time to revive the Eastern question, and
invite the Cretans to revolt, and endeavour to obtain their
independence. Such was the origin of this rebellion. It
was instigated at Athens, it was directed from Athens, and
it was supplied by volunteers from there ; and but for this
support the rebellion would have long since ceased. He
had read with great satisfaction the correspondence which
took place between the Foreign-office and Greece. The
noble lord took a wise and statesmanlike course through-
out, and the only course which a responsible Minister
should take. The noble lord had urged upon the Porte
the removal of all just complaints, and the prevention of
the effusion of blood in suppressing the disturbance ; at the
same time he had entered his protest against the course
which Greece had taken, whose object was not to promote
the welfare of the Cretans, but with the view of gaining
additional territory. It was gratifying that other Powers
had come round to the same opinion. Whatever might be
urged against Turkey, it could not be denied that she
acted a good neighbour towards Greece. Turkey might
have aimed a severe blow at Greece, but instead of doing
so she acted a friendly part, and never broke her engage-
ments with that Power. The Turks were not fairly
treated. They were charged with not making concessions
to their Greek subjects, but when they were given only
led to revolt or insurrection. Tho real object of the Cretans
was to dispossess the Mussulmans of their land, and the lan-
guage held by the Greeks and Servians showed that their
object was to drive the Turks out of Europe. That system
bad been carried out in Servia, where no Mussultnan was
allowed to remain. It was most unjuA to deprive these
people of their homes, who had as good a right to them as the
Greek population had to theirs. The question at issue was
not a political but a religious question ; and if the Greeks
could possess sufficient power, they would expel the
Catholic population as well as the Mussulman, unless
they conformed to the Greek Church. It was not to be
supposed that the Mahometans would surrender their
lands and sacrifice their wives and children without a
desperate struggle, and causing such a massacre as the
world never saw. This country had a large Mahometan
population in India, and if the doctrine were put forth that
Turks were not fit to govern Christians they might come
to the conclusion that Christians were not fit to rule Maho-
metans. And anybody looking into the origin of the In-
dian mutiny would see that it was largely influenced by
events which happened in Europe. The only true principle
to observe between Greeks and Turks was to endeavour as
far as possible to have equal justice done to them. Suppose
the Cretans had obtained what they wanted—annexation
to Greece—would they have improved their position one
bit ? The despatches of the noble lord, as well as those of
Mr. Erskine, who had taken rather an unfair view against
the Turks, show that if the insurrection had not been sup-
ported from Greece peace would long ago have been re-
stored, and that the cause of the revolt was the bad feeling
which had arisen between the natives and the volunteers.
If this be so, how can any one wish for the extension of
that painful rule in: this unhappy island ? As for the talk
about the insecurity of life in Crete, there is no ccmplaint
that the whole country is overrun with brigands ; but in
Greece a man can scarcely leave the gates of Athens with-
out meeting them. The island of Zante is kept in a state
of terror by M. Lombardo, that great regenerator of the
lonian Islands, who has men going about the island mur-
dering any one who does not support his plans. Men are
assassinated openly in the streets and in the coffee-houses,
and nobody, knot even the police, dare to interfere. To
say, therefore, that Crete would gain by annexation to
Greece is to say that which can hardly ho proved. The
great difficulty is to find some form of government which
will deal fairly with both Mahometans and Christians.
There are from 70,000 to 75,000 Mahometans who hold
land in Crete, and whom it would be manifestly unfair to
put under Christian rule. You have to deal with two
barbarous races. The only difference is that the Chris-
tians aro more barbarous in their own territories. The
Turks never justify those acts, but attempt to punish
them, while there is scarcely an instance in which the
Greek Government does not defend them. Fifteen
Turks who were taken by the Christians in Epirus were
dipped in pitch and set on fire. Children were carried off
from school, and their ears were cut off and sent to their
parents, with an intimation that unless ransom were paid
their heads would follow. They vialated women, they

ransacked, robbed, and pillaged. Our consuls enter into
correspondence as soon as a Turk kills a Christian; but
when a Christian kills a Turk we hear nothing about it.

Yet the number of atrocities committed by Christians on
Turks is unfortunately greater than the number of those
committed by Turks on Christians ; while the hatred of
the Christians to the Mahometans is such, that if they had
them in their hands a massacre would occur such as the

world has rarely seen. You can never expel the Turkish
population without the general acquiescence of the Euro-
pean Powers; and until these aro prepared to intervene,
it is only doing the Christians incalculable mischief to
interfere in this way. They are increasing in wealth and

intdlligence, and are daily improving their position. Tho
Mahometans are improving also, under the influence of the

public opinion of Europe. The difference in Turkey is

incalculable. Some years ago a Christian could not ride a
horse through the streets of any town. Now the people

are beginning to find that the rights of property must bo
respected; and it is quite certain that, through this gradual
development, the time will come when some measure will
be found to reconcile the interests of both Turks and
Christians in proper and honourable representation.
Mr. DARBY GRIFFITHS said—l agree with the mem-
ber for Southwark that the true policy of this country is
to endeavour to reconcile the conflicting and almost irre-
concilable interests of Servia and Turkey, by making the
action taken i❑ the case of Wallachia an exemplar of the
course to be adopted. The present position of things is
that Turkey holds; as the last remnant of her rule iu Ser-

.... -
via, certain fortresses along the lino of the Danube.— In
all other respects Servia enjoys perfect autonomy. But
these emblems of domination, though entirely useless to
Turkey, are the cause of the greatest irritation and an-
noyance to the Servians, and remain a grave obstacle to
European peace. The demands and the desires of Servia
for the liberation of their country from such possible con-
tingencies as the bombardment of Belgrade in 1862 have
now raached a climax, and if some agreement is not shortly
come to there will be an outbreak, which may very likely
extend to other quarters. It is to be hoped the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs will take example by the course
of France in the affairs of Wallachia, and give the advice
to the Porte which was given on that occasion—to con-
sult the wishes of the population, and yield to their rea-
sonable demands.

Mr. GLADSTONE said—l should be sorry if, with re-
spect to Turkey, we were not to preserve a desire to treat
her with the respect due to any Power which is respon-

sible for any extended government. Tho circumstances of
her provinces and general concerns have placed her in
such a position that wo aro entitled to entertain questions
relating to her internal relations and to her people, such as
it would bo impertinent to entertain with regard to almost
every other country. There is much sense and justice in
what has fallen from the hon. member with regard to the
case of Servia. We cannot expect Turkey to conform to
our opinions—all we can expect is that where she has con-
tracted either literal or moral engagements she should ful-
fil them—that when she has contracted any engagements
she will lend a willing ear to counsels which may be judi-
cious, and aim solely at the promotion of her own inte-
rests. To the issue how far the retention of the interests of
Servia can serve the interests of the Ottoman Govern-
ment, it seems impossible that any but one answer can be
given, and that answer in the negative. 1 am not aware
of any conceivable purpose of utility, whether of police
at home or of defence against foreign Powers, which
Turkey can gain from the military possession of Servia ;
while, on the other hand, the considerable financial
burden which it entails, and the painful points of
contact which it opens between the suzerain autho-
rity and the people of Servia, constitutes a constan-
political danger. The greater part of this interesting dis-
cussion has been spent upon a question which has great
demands on the sympathy and attention of this house—
the still continuing disturbances in Crete. lam hardly able
to subscribe to the proposition that grievances in the
island of Candia have not any concern whatever in the
production of the recent insurrection. On a former occa-
sion I ventured to express a hope that, when her Majesty's
Government laid papers on this subject on the table, those
papers would show to the house and the country that the
Ottoman Government had fulfilled its engagements— I do
not say its written or literal engagements, but its moral
and substantial engagements—to Europe, in regard to its
Christian subjects, which were contained in what is known
as the Humayoun of 1856. I am not able to say, from read-
ing these papers, that those engagements have been ful-
filled. If the noble lord (Stanley) were able to state, as a
Minister of the Crown, with his more extended and ac-
curate knowledge, that Turkey has on the whole com-
pletely and fully complied with the engagements into which
she has entered, I should receive that assurance with great
satisfaction ; because upon that depends the question
whether any portion of the responsibility of these lament-
able occurrences in Crete lies at the door of the persons
who have been themselves immediately concerned in the
outbreak, or at the door of Government. After the speech
to-night of my hon. friend (Mr. Layard) I do not think it
can be said that the rights and claims of the Turkish Go-
vernment are insufficiently urged or insufficiently appre-
hended in this house. The case of Turkey as against
Crete has been better stated by him than in the documents
of the Turkish Government itself in the blue books;
but I should not hesitate to admit that along with
those grievances which turn mainly on the non-exe-
cution of the Humayoun— assuming such grievances to
exist—there has bean the disposition to give scope and
effect to the strong Hellenic feeling which pervades the
majority of the population. I therefore feel what has
been stated with great force by my hon. friend (Mr. La-
yard) and the hon. gentleman (Mr. Gregory), namely, the
extraordinary responsibility which is incurred by those
who in this house deliver sentiments which, going forth--
it may be in a garbled form—to other countries, may be
made the means not only of fomenting disturbances, but,
where they have already arisen, of encouraging the pro-
longation of efforts which, whether right or wrong, arise
out of questions with which we have but little direct con-
cern. For my part I will not venture to say a word which
can have such an effect. But I may state that, so far as
regards the stipulations of the Humayoun, we are not only
entitled to advise Turkey in connection with her own in-
terests, and appeal to her mercy, her humanity, her sense
of dignity, and her desire to be considered a civilised
European Power, but we are entitled to say to her, that the
fulfilment of these stipulations is a matter of moral faith
and obligation which she is absolutely bound to obey, and
that, failing to fulfil them, she must undergo disgrace in
the eyes of the civilised world. Beyond that, I must say,
in justice to the noble lord (Stanley), that he, so far as I
am able to gather the policy of the Government, has been
directed by a spirit of discretion and fairness in the course
he has pursued throughout this matter. I entirely agree
that he was right in determining to enforce an observance
of the laws of neutrality with regard to Candia, even al-
though there might seem to bo a call of humanity the other
way. That call of humanity was a feeling which it was
his duty ,to repress, and he has done so. He was right
and wise in saying that he would not be responsible for
any endeavour to separate Candia from Turkey; but he
has also been wise in pointing out to Turkey, as he has
done in the despatch of the 17th of January, that the true
policy of the Ottoman empire—the only policy by which
it can ever hope to maintain its power in Europe satisfac-
torily to itself, let alone what it may bo to others—is
that of doing full justice to its Christian sub-
jects, and allowing them to feel that, though under the
nominal sway cf a Mussulman Power, they are in the en-
joyment of perfect religious liberty. (Hear, hear.) I can-
not help adding that the conduct and policy pursued by
tke Ottoman Porte, after some brief delay, in the question
of the Danubian Principalities, may I hope become the
basis of that policy of that Government throughout its
European provinces. The difficulty that arises in Candia
may not be met by arrangements applicable elsewhere, be-
cause the circumstances are different; but I am quite sure
that from the firm fulfilment of her engagements we may
hope for the success of such a policy; because I trust we
are justified in saying that Turkey has set an example of
what wo may perhaps call her spontaneous, at any rate her
deliberate and conscientious, adoption of arrangements
with the Danubian Principalities, which tend to promise
in the future the existence of relations between those Prin-
ecnnonidt.uc(iaveeetro,
thchletalrhlitpi epsi nea snsdo f t bhoe thT uasrkci isrhc uGovernment as
sp
Lord STANLEY said—lt is not my wish nor my duty
to take any part in the controversy on the merits and de-
merits of the Turkish and Greek Governments, nor am I
desirous of entering on the foreign policy which England
has in former times pursued. Every generation has its own
policy. It is not even now necessary for me to state the
course which the present Government have thought it
their duty to take. Two questions have arisen—one with
regard to Greece, and one with regard to Servia. As to the
latter my answer will be brief, but I hope it will not be
unsatisfactory. We have, after much deliberation and in
concert with the other Powers, pressed upon Turkey to
make such concessions to what appear to us the natural
and reasonable wishes of the people of Servia, as we hope
may serve to bring about a good understanding. We have
done that in the interests of the Turkish empire, because
it is impossible to doubt that a serious outbreak in Servia
at the present moment would be as great a misfortune as
could possibly befal the Turkish Government. We
have endeavoured to offer that advice in such a man-
ner as to leave to the Porto itself, to whom it most
properly belongs, the initiative making those concessions
which we consider necessary ; because it is obvious they
would lose much of their grace and value if they seemed to
be made at the dictation of any foreign Power. The re-
presentations we have thought it our duty to address have
been made in a spirit of moderation and good sense—in a
spirit fair, friendly, and conciliatory. (Hear, hear.) I hope,
therefore, that these representations will not be wholly
ineffective ; but, as a positive answer has not been received,
the house will agree that while the correspondence is going
on, and the negotiations still pending, it would not con-
duce to the objects we all have in view if the papers were
laid on the table. When the matter is settled I will pro-
duce them. As to the larger and more urgent question of
Crete, it is less necessary to explain the views of the Go-
vernment in detail, because they have been fully stated in
the papers on the table. The question has been asked,
what we consider the real origin of the insurrection. A
more difficult question it is impossible to put on answer. It
is very hard to get at the truth. The impartial witnesses
are few, and the statements from the two sides are not
merely divergent and conflicting, but absolutely and flatly
contradictory. Local grievances have, to some extent, in-
duced it. The administration of Candia has been what wo
consider a good one. What is the precise magnitude of
those local grievances lam utterly unable to answer. But
they have not been the sole causes. From the moment it
became a serious disturbance, it has been a movement,
not for the redress of local abuses, but of a religious and
national character, in favour of total separation from
Turkish control. (Hear, hear.) Such feelings were not
unnatural. The Hellenes—for no doubt the central
movement is in Greece—have seen success attending
other movements for nationality. They have seen Italy
made a nation and Germany to a great extent united; and
it is not unnatural they should think their time has come,
and the excitement has reacted upan them. As to acts
of cruelty and barbarity, I am afraid there have been
many on both sides, and that it will always happen
where a country is semi-barbarous. Where there are
wars of religion and of race, it is impossible such acts of
atrocity should not occur. I fear the blame must be equally
divided, but pass no judgment upon the matter. One must
not trust all native report from tho interior of Crete. These

scenes have been very seldom witnessed except by the com-
batants themselves, who are not in a frame of mind to

send impartial reports. The story of women and children
being allured to the shore by Turkish vessels hoisting the
British flag and then fired upon is entirely denied. (Hear.)
It is not much worse than what happened in the Pirmus—
the attack of the mob on their own volunteers, because they

returned unsuccessful, in which several lives wore lost and

men injured. Whatover acts of cruelty may have been com-
mitted by the irregular troops—and where Albanians are

employed those are sure to happen—there is no evidence
that they have been sanctioned, or oven tolerated, by the
Turkish Government. Prisoners who have fallen into the

hands of Turkish officers have been humanely treated.

After the indulgent criticism of the house on the policy of
the Government, any vindication is unnecessary. With
regard to the decision of the Government when requested
to send ships of war to take off the refugees, we never

made a decision with more reluctance ; but never with a

clearer conviction that it was right, and the only rational

course. It is impossible to know the eagerness with which
the slightest vmptoins of an armed intervention of the

Western Powers was looked for by tho insurgents ; or the

readiness with which any act that could be distorted into

an act of intervention wao caught up by them. (Hear.) Tho