The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 8, 1858,

to establish the whole principle of the Indian army and
the Indian Government in direct violation of the Bill of
Rights. He would not further demand the assent of
the committee. He submitted these views perfectly
bona fide. The question before then was not whether
they would refrain altogether from legislation, but whe-
ther they would persevere in an attempt at final legisla-
tien, when it was impossible any legislation could be
final or eatisfectory. The hon. and learned member for
Sheffield :teed not be afraid ; even if this resolution was
adopted, the hon. and learned gentleman would have
abundance cf discussion on his
i proposal, and ample op-
portenity of bringing it to an issue. He submitted his
view with confidence to the house. Ho believed he pro-
pos,cl as much as could be done with safety. It made a
considerable change, and that in harmony with the vote
to which the house had arrived. If they thought fit at a
future period to proceed further, his motion would form
no impediment. On the contrary, it would give them
some practical experience—(hear)—of the mode of
carrying Into operation the union of the executive mini-
ster with an independent council. After twelve months
they would be in a much better position to arrive at a
desleitive solution of the questiou of Indian legislation.
What was the object of the extraordinary haste ! They
were told it was to have the benefit of the authority of
the Crown in India. By his proposal they would have
the benefit of that authority. They were told it was
desirable to make Parliameist more cognisant of Indian
affairs, to bring the public opinion of England to bear
on them, and inspire the people with a deeper feeling of
the responsibilities they had contracted. What was
required to direct the attention of the people of Eng-
land to that country, so long as mail after mail
brought tidings of new bodies of insurgents in arms,
of new disturbances in the districts that had been
re-occupied ; so long as each mail tFlls that the
best blood of England is being spent in war, under
all the disadvantages of the hot season. There was
no danger that the attention of the British people would
not be kept directed to it. There was only one other
ground for proceeding with legislation at this moment.
It might have happened that the whole administrative
system had broken down. So far from that being the
case, however, he was honestly bound to say that the
system of government in Leadenhall-street could not be
considered to have broken down as an administrative
system. It might be that as a nation we were not en-
dowed with administrative talents. He had no special
leaning towards the East India Company. All hie as-
sociations were with the ordinary machinery of govern-
ment ; but he must say that the government of the East
India Company and the Government of the Crown had
been tested as administrations under circumstances of
great suddenness and great pressure, and he must say
that the East India Company, so far from having failed,
had discharged their duties in a manner to entitle them
to the la-ting gratitude of the country. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer had lamented the want of information
in the house and country. That was the case. He would
put a test to the committee. Had any one of them heard
any gentleman say, "If you want to get up the Indi
question, read the debates?" On the contrary, he had
heard rather irreverent remarks, that they had dogma-
tised without knowledge, and marched forward without
considering whether they had before them a path or a
precipice. He did not find any one incline to give them
the credit they obtained on that subject uf showing they
)were masters of their business and knew what they were
ghee. He had ventured to introduce his views to the
house as involving no party difference, no personal con-
sideration, but as his honest opinion after candid con-
sideration. So far as his intention and convictions were
concerned be had honestly attempted to give effect to the
lodgment of the house—so far as it had already been
dectared—and to carry out the important changes they
had Jecided on. He believed ha had suggested the course
best advted to the maintenance of their own dignity,
and mutt in consonance with their duty and obligation
to maintain, study, and promote the interests of the
people of Engle/ed. (Loud cheers.)
Lord STANLEY said,—Kn swing as I do, and know •
legs as this house does, the power with which the right
bon. gentleman treats every subject with which he has
to deal—knowing the sympathy which such an amend-
ment as that he has put on the paper could not f ill to
command in this house—knowing, moreover, how easy
it is, even for those gifted with far inferior powers, to
nssign on almost any subject plausible reasons in favour
of delay and in favour of hesitation with reference to any
decided course which it has been proposed to take, I
cannot be surprised that the speech of the right hon.
gentleman should have produced, as undoubtedly it has
done, a considerable impression on the house. (Hear )
But though I quite allow that the object and purpose of
the right hon. gentleman's amendment are different in
come respects from the objects and purposes formerly
submitted in the same spirit to the house, yet I could
not but think, when I listened to the right hon. gentle.
man, that some of the arguments he most strenously
employed were arguments which I had heard before, and
that at no distant date. (Hear, hear.) The right hon.
gentleman dwelt on the time at which we propose to
make this change, on the disturbed state of affairs is
India, on the dangers of party spirit, and on the com-
plexity and intricacy of the subject with which we have
to deal. These topics and arguments have all been
touched on before ; they were all urged by the noble
lord the member for Durham (Lord H. Vane) some six
weeks ago ; and what was the decision at which the
house arrived After a debate of scarcely two hours, the
the proposition then made in favour of postponing the
discussion of this subject was negatived, not by a hare
majority, but by one of the most overwhelming majori-
ties ever recorded in this house. (Hear, hear.) What
are the oLjections to preceding with the meaeura of
the Government I The right hon. gentleman objects to
proceeding with it at this time of the year, and he has re-
ferred to a late motion male in this house as indicating
the spirit in which it is likely Indian affairs will be dis-
cussed. He has adverted also to the continuance of the
vier is India, and he has told us of the great intricacies
and difficulties of the question. Now, with regard to
the question of time, I will not go back beyond the pre-
ceoent of 1856, though I may just mention in passing
that on almost all former occasions when this house
entered upon the renewal of the East India charter the
duty was undertaken at a period of the year quite as
advanced as this. (Hear, hear.) But to go no further
back than 1556, I may remind the house that though
the question of the Home Government of India was not
then dealt with in so comprehensive a manner as now,
yet in the bill introduced by the right hon. gentleman
the member for Halifax no slight or unimportant changes
were imported into the system of government, (Hear,
hear.) Let me also remind the house that we are now
beginning anew to deal with this subject. We have had
before us ever since February the plan of the late Go-
vernment. Since December last we have had intimations
of that plan being in progress, for we were then told that
Indian affairs would call for our most serious considera-
tion. Ever since that time, and, indeed, for months
before, every newspaper and every review has been full
of the subject, and the public mind has been called, as it
never was before, by occurrences of the most dreadful
kind, to consider the question of Indian administration.
(Hear, hear.) I venture to repeat what I said on a for-
mer occasion, that I do not believe you can ever have
a snore favourable occasion than the present to consider
this subject. It would be a strange alt fission cf
utakne,s and incapacity if, after S:X months' deficitive
notice, and after the attention of al, England has been
called for twelve months to Indian affairs, we were now
ta-declare that we were incompetent to make a perma-
nent et ttlernent—l do not say of the whole Indian ques
tion, but a settlement of that part of the question with
which alone we are called to deal. The right hon. gen-
tleman speaks of the effect and influence of party spirit
on this question. The noble lord the member for

Durham six weeks ado pr-ceded hint on that topic;
but the noble lord V.:B tnenuhr for Durham tad not the

adva❑tong. of some event.; which have since occurred.

The right hoe. gentleman referred t, a late event, the
memory of which is fresh with na all, as affording an

unfavourable i❑dication of the manner in which Indian
questions ate treatetrin this flume. Übinembering tha:
event—remembering the debate that took place, and the
conclusion the house came to, I am inclined, from pre-
cisely the same premises, to draw a precisely opposite
conelusion. I think many were led at that time to sup.
port the Government of the day from a scrupulous desire
not in any manner to bring India within the scope of
party conflizt in this house. (hear) With regard to the
state of the insurrection in India I have no wish to mis-
lead the house. I agree with the right hon. gentleman
when he ua that the war now being waged in India
is not at an end. I agree with him that, though the
wort is new over, the war is far from being at an end.
arn_afraid in some district-s, though it may not be a war
eritous to the empire, that those military operations
will be long. I tear that they will be harassing to the
troopa, and may involve a considerable sacrifice of valu-

But how far, and to what extent, does that
state of affairs impede oar proceedings in the work of re-
construction of the home government of India I (Rear.)
For 12 months that war has raged, for six months the
%thole question has been open, and it has been publicly

a'nnonneed, on the highest authority, that the .existing

Systbm of the Indian Government at'home i■ discredited'

as there-
been any complaint—has it been cud that
the effect r.,f that announcement has been to impe 'e the
o-,tryingonof operations in India or to ditnini-1 the
public
eorguitlernauit of t
hoso who are employed-3 The right hon.
appeals d to the noble lord the member for
Tiverton, and asked whether, if the noble lord Thad known
the diniens,inn,4l4 have
disturbance in India was about
to assume, ~
I,avta proceeded with his proposed
course of legisl ttion 8.u,,,e stand in a different position
from that in which the noble,,‘ 1 n-s 1 stood. The noble lord
thought, and I am far tro
that the state of
o,ffAirs in 11)&14 required greater Lim,
puromptitude in carring
or, the Indian business at homer one of the rea•
4 i0:1 1: 12
rcourse of legisla-
tions alleged by him for enteritinog
tion, W d are in a different
our power to deal with this meteor au It i* not in
the
question
not been raised. (ffe:sr.) The question has had
been raised,
and the confidence of all persons in the system and m
chaniem by which the administration of Indian affairs ---e-
-tome is carried on has been diminished. • It seems
ato
me that the only manner of restoring that confidence—.
and it ie nirar more important than ever that it should he
felt in the administration of Indian affairs—is to close up
ajain tie speedily u possible, and as permanently as poe-

Bible, that part of the question which has been opened.
(Hear, hear.) The right hon,, gentleman spoke of the
complexity and difficulty of this Indian question. lam
far from denyielg that it is a most difficult and intricate
pr iblem ; but I think the right hon. gentleman has con-
founded two things which are essentially distinct—
nemely, the administration of Indian affairs in India,
arid the composition of that body which in this country
is to exercise a general direction and control over the
Indian Government. The right hon. gentleman has
opened some of the widest questions with which a states•
man can possibly be called to deal. He has told us of
the necessity of giving an open career to the natives of
India and of elevating them in the social scale ; he has
told us how social improvement is necessarily connected
with some degree of political power ; and with all that
he said on that subject, and with the high authority he
quoted to confirm his opinion, I fully and entirely con,
cur. But I agree with him also when he says—and
there he seemed to be replying to his own argument—
that the present is not the time to deal with those par-
ticular questions, because, at present, when feelings of
hostility exist against our Government on the part of the
native population, to raise such questions would only
exasperate the enneitp already existing, and, therefore,
that that was not a part of the Indian subject with which
it was possible to deal at the present moment. Again,
he told us of the relations between the military services
of India and England. He sail that the relation
between the English and the Indian armies was not
noticed in any of the resolutions before the coun-
try. Undoubtedly it was not so noticed, and that
for precisely the reason which be alleges. There is
an inquiry at present going on, or about to commence,
on the subject of the reorganization of the native army
in India. A larger and more general inquiry on the
relations between the army employed in India and the
Executive here will be carried on in this House. A full
investigation will be entered on in reference to that sub-
ject, and when that investigation is completed we shall
be prepared to give the result to the public. Bat the
right hon. gentleman throughout his argument proceed-
ed on an assumption in which I should regret if the
House were to share. He assumed, if we were to go
over the questions connected with the Indian adminis-
tration and attempt to settle any such questions per-
manently now, that so soon as the Bill which we shall
shortly bring in was passed the House would refuse to
reopen any part of the Indian subject, ands door would
be closed against all future reform. I should deeply
regret if such were likely to be the case ; but I am sure
that if at one and the same time, and in one and the
same measure, any Government were to attempt to
deal with all those questions touching the political
staks of the native population, the relations between
the native and European armies, and those between the
Governor-General and the Executive here, the result
would be that no measure would be passed, and pro-
bably the whole session would be consumed by fruitless
discussion, while the recollections which it would leave
behind would probably operate powerfully to prevent
any future Minister or any Parliament undertaking to
deal with the subject in a comprehensive manner.
(Hear.) The right hon. gentleman has stated the ob-
jections which he entertains to the course proposed by
the Government, and I must state in a few words what
are the objections which I entertain to the course pur-
sued by him. The right hon. gentleman wishes to con-
stitute the present Court of Directors a Ceuncil for ad-
ministering the Government of India in the name of the
Queen, under the superintendence of a responsible
Minister of the Crown, until the end of the next session
of Parliament. In the first place and principally I object
to any such mode of proceeduro because it seems to me that
you would place those who were to compose -uch a council
in3a singularly false and inconvenient position. (Hear.)
You would tell them that they were doomed, and their
term of power would aeon expire, that no efforts they
could make, no energy they could show, and no public
spirit they could display would avail to prolong that
term of power. (Hear) Would not the inevitatle
effect of placinn such men, however able and laborious,
in a position like that, be to a great extent to diminish
the zeal and energy with which the public business would
he carried on t (Cheers.) But it is not merely as re-
gards the directors themselves that I think the proposal
objectionable. You must also look to the effect it would
pro ince on the public mind. (Hear.) When you say
a certain body whom you would intrust with consider.
able power is to lose that power at the end of a not very
lengthened term,—when you say openly or by implice-
t ion, that the enly reason they are allewec to continua
in the possession of power for that short term is the diffi-
culty of finding a substitute, the effect must ne to impair
the cnnidence which the public will feei in them, and to
discredit them before thereyes both of England and of
India. (Cheers.) We have ourselves experienced the
inconvedience which is apt to arise when there eccurs in
our Parliamentary Government a period during which
Ministers only hold office until their successors are ap•
pointed ; and we have found that during two or three
weeks or even a month all public business comes to a
standstill, and great inconvenience has accrued to the
publice service; and I must say that, in my opinion,
we should be creating a similar inconvenience, but upon
an infinit•-ly larger scale and at a most dangerous tfme,
,f we, by telling the Court of Directors that they might
hold their tenure of power until the end of next session,
were to make them a discredited body, while at the
same time we announced to Were that the only reason
which induced us to continue power in their hands was
our unwillingness at the present time to lay down any
scheme for the permanent Government of India. (Hear.)
If we were to adopt that course at this critical
period in our Indian affairs we should certainly discredit
tie East India Company, for, while leaving in
their hands a great administrative authority, we should
nevertheless tell them that we intended, and that at no
v. ry distant period, to deprive them of that authority,
and that because we disapproved of the system upon
which they wielded it. The intention of the right hon.
gentleman undoubtedly is to do away with that which
is thought by some to cause a great part of the inconve-
nience which has been complained of—l mean the ex'st-
erice of a double government and the existing system of
separate offices. Now, I do not think that the plan sug-
gested in the resolutions of the right hon. gentleman
even effects the object which he wishes to effect. All
that the proposal of the right hon. gentleman amounts
to is, not that the Board of Control should be abolished
—not that the President of the Board of Control for the

time being should assume the fanctis,ns of President of
the Council in Leadenhall-street ; but he proposes to re-
tain the two offices and the present system of communi-
cation between them, but to give the President of the
Board of Control, whenever he might be so inclined, an
optional power of going to Leadenball-street, and being
when there, the Chairman of the Court of Directors.
Now, looking at that substantive proposition, I cannot
conceive that it could effect any economy of time or sav-
ing of labour, or that it would be productive of any good
to the public service. At present the chairman of the
Court of Directors is invested with great powers, and
consequently with great responsibility, and certainly his
authority would be impaired if he were only to be chair-
man when the President of the Board of Control did net
happen to come down and assume his !unctione. I do
not think that such a plan would conduce to the goad
working of the department, but that is a question of de-
tail, and I do not wish to rest upon it ; but my objec-
tion to the proposal before the house plainly and briefly
is that it does not attempt any permanent settlement of
the question. When I talk of a permanent settlement, I
don't mean to say that, when we have arranged the
epestpee between Leadenhall-street and Cannon-row, we
shall have made any very great progress in reforming
local administration in India —a subject, doubtless,
which requires great care and attention ; but, so far as
regards that part of legislation for India with which we
at present propose to deal, I confidently hope that even
at this period, and notwithstanding the delays which
have taken place, we shall be able during the present
eseion to come to a permanent settlement of the ques-
Ition. (Cheers.)
Sir C. LEWIS' concurred with the noble lord the
President of the Board of Trade in the opinion that this
amendment was a repetition of the one brought forward
by the honourable member br the county of Durham.
The motion was a dilatory one, and could lead to no
advancement in the question before the committee. But
if these resolutions were agreed to, they would lead prac-
tically to very serious results. If the board of directors
,sere to act as a council, they must cease to act as direc-
t.ors, and must give up their independence of character.
If They were to place', as was proposed, the board of
eirect ire in joxtapo6itien with the President of the
Board of Centrel, this wenld solve the whole question
v!.iela the house was caked upon to decide as to the
Ir n and constitution of the proposed council. The
second resolution was not consistent with the first, and
could not be adopted if the first were agreed to. He
hoped, therefore, that the co-naulittee would not hesitate
to proceed with the resolutions before the house, which
were, at all events, practical and consistent. (Hear,
hear.) He said that that house was perfectly competent
to deal with the whole subject of Indian legislation, and
if they were to wait until next year or the following year
en o, n
fine:greed li g tw
himselfosuol df a
rbferotmh r
tohwi
nnk
ionng
tthb
aet
tshuebrjee ct
was.
an
ye
iwnotnildeealrawttaesr,thhae
thiliffiisCounltlyy
,t ht
ho
eugcho to
si ttiwthetsiopne rfoefc
tlhyecvl eaasrt.
India Company had remained so long, and lie trusted
that a thorough reform was now
about sweep it away.
Mr. LIDDELL did not think it was fair to the amend-
ment to describe it as a mere mwethhyodwoafsi it iostponhing the
übject of Indian legislation.
the amendment to bring the council' was
Indiannonedearagaeren-
.ponsible Minister ? The amendment involved very c mei •
derable change, but it waasnd achiatnwgaeswohniclhy was
now foundedth
a that
th oe y
cc en
safety. A great change had lately come over the
op
the danger in which they
ere beginning
o f that
thouse,
see
might
be involved in entering upon Indian legislation. Was
teens ever a moment when the machine of Governmeet
was charged with a weight of duty so overrun as at the
present moment, and would it not be dangerous to at .p
o even f.r a inoinent ? In every scheme that had been
er,po,3eil the erineiple of a council was embraced. T,.,t
ce log toe cane, tell it more reasonable than the amend-
which ten old continue
ei nt of the tieht lion. gr.:11'1_111).ln,
a council which hal proved itself experienced and faith-
fol, The noble lord the member for Tiverton had said
;hat there was a greet deal in a name, and therefore he
ei op imed to ietreduee the ietme of the Q 1 en. But how
see the name of the Qu .en been introduced ? WO,
',y- the Oude proclamation. Would the, forcibly inhere
ontidenee in the people Of ledie ? The name of the
ii:est India Board was well known in India, and there-
fere be should unhesita'iugly give his support to the
amendment.

Mr. DRUMMQND said his objection to the two
bills which had been before the house was, that they di
not touch the government of India. There had been
some bocce pocus about the home government, bat
what he considered as the government of India was that
which was best for the people of India. He did not
hulk the country was well instructed upon what had
Wean going on in the Indian legislature. There was pro-
toned ignorance, too, as to the conduct of the English to

the natives of India. He read the opinions of Sir F.
Shore, who stated that the natives were treated by the
English with the utmost superciliousness. Few English-
men returned the salute of a native, and they never
spoke to them with civiiity. All servants, natives, were
treated with the greatest harshness by the English.
The origin of this was, that it was supposed to
be the best means of keeping up the dignity of the
English. The treatment by the English was tyran-
nical and brutal. All these statements were corrobo-
rated by Lord William Bentinck. Was it to be
supposed that these things did not rankle in the minds
of the natives ? The Italian maxim applied as
much to India as anywhere else—" Vengeance sleeps,
but never dies." There was dissatisfaction enough in
India for half a dozen rebellions. Was not torture
practised in every British province by the lower subor-
dinates of the Government ? There could be no doubt
of it, notwithstanding the denial of Sir James Hogg,
Mr. Mangles, and Mr. Elliot. And what was the law
applied to the ratives I Why, it was a foreign lan-
guage, and was administered by foreign officials, and
one of the panaceas for the government of India was to
send out more English lawyers. The fact was India
was looked upon as a country to be exploited for the
civil service. If India was continued to 133 looked upon
as merely a country for plunder, we should assuredly
lose it ultimately. He thought it would be wise at once
to issue a proclamation in the Queen's name, and take
potsersion of Oude in her name. That would create
the belief in the native mind that the Government would
be carried on for the happiness of the people.
Mr. CUMMING BRUCE had always been extremely
anxious that the Queen's name should be introduced
into the Government of India. He thought the first
Council for India should be the Council of the East
India Company. The noble lord had said that the
house would stultify itself by adopting the amendment,
but he (Mr. C. Bruce) denied that public expectati, n
would be much disappointed by delay. He could not
agree with the honourable member for Pontefract that
the East India Company had been treated with any dis-
respect either by the present Government or that r.f the
noble lord the member for Tiverton. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer had spoken of its labours is terms of
the highest commendation, comparing it with the great
Venetian Republic, He should c'rdially support the
amendment, and if it were rejected should press his own
which was kindred in spirit. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LOWE expressed himself at a loss to understand
the bearing of the amendment. Its terms were
vague, and it was difficult to ascertain the re-
lations which were to subsist between the Minister
and the Court of Directors in the new provi-
sional Government. The amendment proposed to
maintain the powers of the Board of Control, But ho
could they be preserved without preserving the correla-
tive powers of the East India Company. The right hon.
gentleman proposed that despatches should first be sub-
mitted to a committee, and then be referred to the full
Court of Directors. This was the course at present ; but
if repeated under this proposal how would that intolera-
Lie delay now complained of be obviated ? No ground
had been laid by the right hon. gentleman for his specific
scheme, or why a provisional government should be
adopted instead cf a permanent one. Nothing had been
advanced why delay was preferable to action. The only
reason urged in favour of the change was, that delay
would give an oppn" unity for procuring information on
the subject of India generally. The proposal of the right
hon. gentleman would aggravate instead of removing the
difficulties to be encountered ; his proposition was a tem-
p irary measure, opening up a vast number of embarrass-
no; questions without rattling any of them. It would be
better to face these difficulties manfully, and not sanc-
tion a provisional ooverntnent, which would have neither
he prestige-of the old ono nor anything to recommend
it in itself. (Hear.)
Mr. A. MILLS thought that in the face of the multi-
plicity (I amendments on the paper, brief speeches would ,
be preferable to long ones. (Bear.) Without impugning
the grammatical accuracy of the amendments of the right
hon. gentleman, he doubted whether any clause could be
framed to carry out his intentions. He gathered from
the amendments that it was intended that the board of
directors and the Board of Control ehoul l be vo far amal-
gamated as that the evils of the double government
stionid he obviated. He could not see, ho sever, how
these evils would be removed by enabling the President
of the Board of Control occasionally to preside at the
ren etings of the C mncil. (Hear, hear.) He deprecated
delay in grappling with this question, believing the
same difficulties which had now to be met would be
rife two years hence. It the measure passed with the
amendments now proposed, it would still only be an ini-
tiatory step towards a scheme for the government of
India. He expressed his extreme reluctance in being
unable to support the proposition of the right hon. gen-
tleman, on the ground of the necessity for an immediate
and comprehensive legislation. (Hear, hear.)
Col. SYKE3 said the proposition of his right hon.
friend to call in the present board of directors to the aid
of the Minister was a very simple one. The administra•
tive capacities cf the present board of directors had been
sneered at, but 15 out of the 18 were intimately ac-
quainted with the affairs of India. This sneer, therefore,
might be sent to that limbo to which other paradoxes
uttered on this question had been consigned. (A. laugh.)
Urging the claims of the present form of government,
he maintained that the Court of Proprietors as; a safety.
valve for the discontent which might from time to time
ari e in India, and which if dealt with in Parliament
would be made the pivot for party strife. He combatted
the statements of the horn member for Surrey with re-
spect to the character of the European population in
India. If their conduct had been such as had been de-
scribed, they would have been chased out of India long
ago. If the hoc. member for Surrey were to attend one

of the Addiscornbe meetings, and the weekly meeting of
the committee, he would find that the pupils were en-
jsined in the strongest terms to aist in a kind spirit to
the natives of India when they went out there. Parlia-
ment was about to change a ferns of government under
which 181 millions of the natives of India had been
ruled, but these millions had never been consulted in
the slightest manner oa the subject of the patronage to
be exercise! under the new scheme of government. The
hon. and gallant member read the opinions of two or
three native Indians on passing events in this country,
which bad been recently forwarded to him. A Parsee, a
man of wealth and education, whose family had been con.
nested with Bombay ever since its transference from the
Portuguese, declared to him, in a late communication,
that the English Parliament were proceeding in ignorance
of the real state of affairs i❑ India, and expressed a hope
that the English Government would not, with regard to
India, follow the example of their colonial mismanage-
ment. This Parsee warned the Parliament of the danger
of interfering with caste, and recommended the Eoglish
Government to reform their own social regulations be-
f ire meddling with those of India, Were not the people
themselves to be consulted, and was it not fair that the
wishes of the 120 millions they were to legislate for
should be cousn'tsd Was that not necessary to con-
ciliate them F In India, before an act was passed, a no-
tice was given in the Government Gazette, and an interval
of three months was allowed that the desires of the people
flr ,uld be ascertained. Why, then, should a question
affecting their interests be pa-sed letstily without con-
sulting them ! If the population of India were consulted,
nine-tenths of them would be found to be adverse to the
prop)sed measures. He hoped they would consider this
point, and not take a course which would exclude further
discussion. Let time be given for distrust to subside.
Mr. BOVILL reminded the house that a resolution
bad been passed that it was e-sentiail that there should
be some legislation for India, and members on both sides
concurred in that opinion. It was because the resolution
of Mr. Gladstone promoted delay that he opposed it,
It appeared impossible that any bill should pass both
houses after the resolutions had been discussed. The
fist suestion for them to decide bad been whether the
rule of the East India Cimpany should continue, and it
Lad been agreed that they should proceed to legislate.
The principle had been affirmed by two Governments
end by a majority that there should be a council. The
principal difficulty was as to the constitution of that
council. He proceeded to analyse the several proposi-
tions which had been made. There would be an ample
opportunity for the opinions of the people of India to be
taken. He supportel the original resolution.

Mr. D. SE.tSIOUR. could not understand the argu-
ment that the tendency of the resolution of the right
.hon. gentlein in would lead to a calming of the pub-
lic mind in India. They bad decided on a change, and
it would be injurious to adjourn the settlement of the
qua ition for 18 months. Who was to aasser despatches!
A divided authority would be a cau•e of great inconve-
nience. The hon. member for Aberdeen had said that
the press had unsettled the public mind in India. Did
not his !Teach unsettle their minds still more when he
said there had bee❑ public meetings and that it was in-
tended to interfere with their religion I Would he not
do more to calorit if be said that in the Legislature there
bad been no such speeches They knew that there was
no authority above that of this house. Must they not
have seen in the debates in this house that we had no
disposition to an interference with their religion, and
that we were actuated by a Christian spirit I The direc-
tors of the East India Company had not been actuated
by such a spirit. The people of India would not believe

that we, who were so devoted to our own religious liberty,
would intet fere with theirs. He was sorry that there bad
been an estrangement of I•tta between the eepoys and
their officers. The house was pledged to legislation, and
he wondered that a motion was proposed so opposite to
the expressed opinion of the house. We should show
the natives th.:t we were determined and resolute, and
would not hastily discuss the question for the sake of

our recreation a month hence. Ho therefore hoped the

house would not consent to the adjournment.
The house then divide:), whoa the number 3 were—
For the original motion 265
For the amendment
Majority —l49
THE INDIAN COUNCIL.
Mr. ROEBUCK then addressed the committee in op-
wirdtion to the ciuncil. /le s tid—W re I to consult

ly the probabilities of success in the proposition I
lilve to make, I eh. ul I certainly be vaunted, for I am
tolerably sure there will be an immense majority
against it. But that to mo is no new thing. I have
brought forwarl many propsiti )11s, which were at fit-4
ejected, hut which afterwards became the.,cieed of this
uouse. (Hear, hear.) Some years ago I contended for
a particular c lurse being followed in our colonial
policy, and was always outvoted, but a time came
when that which hal beea BO often raj acted, almost
Nith scorn, became the creed of the Colonial Minister.
(Erear, hear.) I am not daunted, therefore, at the pros-
pect of a large majority against me. (guar.) This hou.e
has resolved—first, that the G.,vernment of India shall
be transferred from the Court of Directors to the Crown;
next it has decided that the power of the-Crown shall be
exercised by a Minister of State; and now it is pre-
pose to give to that Minister of State a council to aid

and counsel him. It is against this laet proposition that
I now address the house. I must remind the house of a
distinction to which allusion has been made to-night, but
not sufficiently dwelt upon-1 moan the distinction be-
tween the Government of India that is in England, and
the Government that is in India. With this last point
we have now nothing to do—the resolution before us
concerns Vie Home Government of India only, and the
question we have to answer is, whether there shall be a
Secretary of State by himself alone, and responsible for
his own acts, or whether ho shall he aided by a council.
I adhere to the first. I say that a single Secretary of
State, responsible for all his acts, and being himself his
own guide and counsellor, ought to be alone the Gover-
nor of Indii. I hold this view, first, on account of the
mental and moral benefit which a scan derives from act•
ing alone. lie has a more distinct and pressing interest
in what he has to do than a man who shares his respon-
sibility with others, and therefore mentally and morally
he is a stronger man, and better able to carry on the gc-
verninont with vigour. (Hear) I have heard it said,
" Why, under your plan, only fancy India governed by
the right hon. gentleman the member for Northampton."
(A. laugh.) Well, we have seen India governed by the
right hon. gentleman the member for Northampton, and
governed without responsibility. But lam told the days
of responsibility are over, and that we don't now deprive
Ministers of their heads, but of their places. (A. laugh.)
I have, however, seen three notable instances of the
results of responsibility. I have seen the Government
of Lord Aberdeen turned out because the people of
England thought their honour was not safe in their
hands. I have seen the Government of the noble lord
the member for Tiverton turned out of power for the
same reason. I have seen the almighty power of this
house hurl him from his place
" headlong flaming from th' ethereal sky,
With hideous' ruin and combustion, down
To bottomless perdition."
(A laugh.) I have seen, on this very business of India,
a President of the Board of Control driven from power
simply by the Expression of opinion—not by a resolu-
tion---iu this house and out of doors, and that within a
few weeks past. Shall any man tell me, then, that there
is no responsibility ? Aye, but it is said, there was at
that time, when he wag so driven from power, a Board
of Directors. Does not everybody know that the Board
of Directors was at that time destroyed, and that the
vary fact of his being responsible wan because he acted
by himself alone I And did he not say that he acted
by himself, without their consent and without consulta-
tion with them, and that he was answerable for his con-
duct / And did not the house and the country accept
that statement, and punish him for hie conduct ? I
don't say the house or the country was right; but what
I say is that, believing he was so responsible, they
punished hint for his act. This is the only constitutional
responsibility in fact, and the milder manners of modern
times, which do not allow us to cut off the heads of Mi-
nisters—(:s laugh)—by allowing us to displace them
make them responsible to us for their acts. But, it may
be said, a Council is necessary for the purpose of afford-
ing advice. Well, then, we have to consider the Coun-
cil which is to aid this Indian Minister, first, as to the
men from whom it is to be derived ; next, as to the
manner of its election ; then as to its tenure of office ;
and again, as to its power. With respect to the men
from whom it is to be derived, I have in this house
spoken of the class who are generally called " Old
Indians." lam told that a large proportion of the men
who are to assist and advise this Minister of the Crown
are to be selected from that class of Old Indians. The
right honourable gentleman the member for the
University f Oxford made upon me a somewhat weak
joke. Ho said, "The hon. and learned gentleman takes
exception exactly to tho to men who have some means of
acquiring knowledge." lam going to speak of old In-
dians, but not of my own authority, and the right hon.
gentleman roust pardon me if I say his authority in mat-
ters of Government is not possessed of any great weight.
(A laugh.) Invariably have I found the right hon, gen-
tleman opposing almost all the advances made by man-
kind since I have been in his house. (Oh, oh.) I recol-
lect that, upon that very question of colonial adminis-
tration, among my most formidable opponents was the
right hon. gentleman. I think he also opposed the
free trade measure. Bat it is not for me to
say that the right hon. gentleman has not many claims
to the admiration of this house. (Cheers.) He has a most
captivating eloquence, but he wants judgment to guide
he (Laughter.) In fact, his mind is like a tangled web.
It ie a thing inarvello.ue to look at, but utterly useless
for any practical purpose. (A. laugh ) I am going to put
against his authority that of a very different man, who
deeply dived into all human thoughts, who ransacked
human nature, iu order to understand and guide it. I
neean Mill, the historian of British India. You are told
to consider the advantage you would derive from framing
a Council of Old Indians for the guidance of the Indian
Minister ; and I would have you recollect the mode in
which the Anglo-Indian acquires knowledge. He goes
out to India a youth and has very little power of acquir-
ing a knowledge of mankind. He studies a language or
two. He is segregated from his own class, and sent at
once to govern, Now, Mil', in the preface to his history,
discusses the question of the advantages which the his-
torian of British India woul I derive from going to In-
dia, and says that the powers of observation in every in-
dividual are exceedingly limited, and it is only by com-
bining the observation of a number of individuals that
a competent knowledge of any extensive subject can
be acquired. Now, let us recollect that our domi-
nions in India extend from the Himalayas to Cape Co-
morin. There are, I believe, in that space 20 different
nations, all speaking very different languages, and all
having very different customs, as different as Italy is
from Denmark ' • and I would suppose a traveller going to
Italy was called on to legislate for Danmark. You know
what that would mean. For the same reason a man who
had passed his life in the Punjab would be as unable to
legislate for Travancore as a man living in Naples would
be to legielate for Denmark. My hon. friend the member
for Surrey quoted opinioes concerning the moral c indi-
tion of gentlemen who have gone to India, but I have
only to do now with their intellectual character. Lord
Teignmouth pints out in emphatic language the diffi-
culty of acquiring a requisite amount of knowledge to
enable us to govern India by reminding his readers of
the magnitude of our acquisitions there, the character of
the people placed under our dominion, their difference of
language, their dissimilarity in other respects, aid that
we began our rule in the country in ignorance of its
former government. I could also quote to the same end
the authority of Lord H. Bentinck, Sir H. Stachey, Sir
J. Malcalra, and other distinguished men—in short, that
of all the men of mind who have gene to India. I do not
mean to say that the mere going to India totally unfits
a man for governing India, but I say, that taking the
mass of men who have gone there, the mere fact of a man
having been in India gives him no greater power of go-
verning that c ,untry than he could have acquired by
study and reflec:ion at home, and, in fact, not so much so
far as regards knowledge of the feeings and habits of the
people. Now, Sir, I come to the question, by whom is
the proposed Council to be selected ? It is said partly by
the Crown and partly by election. Now, if I know any-
thing of this house—and I have had a long experience in
it—l am confident that the doctrine of ulectiou in this
matter will not be received—in short, that it will be
scoute l ; and the real feet will be that the appointment to
this Council will be in the hands of the Ministers of the
Crown, for when we say that it will be in the hands of
the Crown, we mean that it will be in the hands of the
responsible advisers of the Crown. "Oh," but says the
right hon. gentleman " that will be an enormous power
to confer upon a Minister," Now, what power is it
proposed to confer on the Minister'? Why it is pro-
posed to confer on the Government of the day the power
of electing persons who will be screens to those who
elect them, and for that reason I object to any ono hav-
ing such power of election ; but at the same time, if it
is determined to confer upon any one that power of elec-
tion, I think that the person who is responsible to this
lactase is as likely to be a good elector as any holder of
so much India stock. (Bean) The right hon. gentleman
member f r the University of Oxford has proposed to
form the Council from the existing Board of Directors.
Now, the existing Board of Directors has been elected
by the holders of India stock, and I would ask the house
do you consider that gentlemen so elected would be
more responsible or would be better chosen than persons
chosen literally by this house i I say literally chosen
by this house, because it is by this house that the Mini-
ster is chosen by whom the Council is to be chosen, and
therefore it is by this house, in the last resort, that the
Council would be chosen ; and I ask you if you consider
that holders of India stock form a better elective body
than this house? (Hear.) Oh, but it is said you are
putting lilt ) the hands of the Government of the day a
vast engine of corruption. Now, as regards the gees-
tion of the virtue of this house, in the first place I do
not think that the mere appintinent of 10 or 12 persona
to hold office for six or simen.yeara svanniafford a means
of corruption that this house could not withstand. Then
we are told that the appointments to all positions in the
army and civil service would be in the hands of the
Minister, and that that would exercise a corrupt influ-
ence over this house, for that we could not resist the
blandishments of a Meister armed with such a power.
Now, if there is the least honest sincerity in this objec-
tion, the house will sae at once how easily it is got rid of
by the mode which I should suggest. I would suggest
that all first appointments in India should be bestowed
upen the principle of fair and open competition.
(Hear, hear.) Do not let me be misunderstood. I
would have a clear, open,
honest competition. Say
there are 20 places to be given a nay. Well,-
I would allow every man capable of making an ap-
plication in writing to undergo the trial and be exit
mined. Let there be no pretence, as there is now, of
compellieg persons to beg to be placed on the list for
examination, but let it be competent for every man who
is willing to do so to put his name clown and be Ell-
wined, even If teens should be LOCO competitors for the
20 vacant offices. That, to my mind, is the only fair
mode of empl ying the principle of competition, and
that would, I think, take all power of corruption out of
the hands cf the Ministers. I no .w exile to the ques-
ion of the tare f newhich the Council is to be appointed.
Sorne say that the appointment should be f r life, others
t n years, :aid ()lists f six years. Now, the fast
of electing nienviers i f the Council for six years would
deprive them of all responsibility, while at the same time
the Minister f,r In lin would be an irresponsible Minis-
,er. pond upon it that if you adopt that principle
you will abolish all reAp.msibility in the government of
" I,ja ; if yet' give the Minister of the Crown the aid
:and assist mace, of a C rancil you will take responsibility
from him and destroy his p nver of governing India. I
have now passed over the questions as regards the per-
sons to be ellcted, aed the persons by whom they are to
be elected, end I come now to the question as regards
the powers which it is intended to give to the Council.
ft is said by seine that the connection between the
Minister and the Council ought to be something like the
connection bet ween the Governor-General and his Coun-
cil, that he should take the advice of the Council, and
act upon it. Now, that would be to deprive the Minis-
ter of all reqpong ibility, and I don t think that a majority
of this house would wish to see the establishment of a
,

Council to control the Minister. The effect of such a
Council would be to shroud the Minister when in the
wrong, and to hamper him when in the right—(bear)—
for if wrong his responsibility would be taken away, and
when right he would be afraid to act in cases where it
might be said that he was acting contrary to the opinions
of 10 or 12 persons associated with him. I know that
such would be the case from what has occurred
since I have been a member of this house. We have
been told that the President of the Board of Con-
trol is really the Governor of India, and that is the
fact, and that he may do as he pleases. Now, I upon
one occasion moved a vote of censure upon the President
of the Board of Control, and what course was adopted
by the East India Directors who were members of this
house ? Time out of mind I had heard them say that
they had nothing whatever to do with the war in Aff-
ghanistan, and yet when I moved a vote of censure upon
the President of the Beard of Control iu connection with
that war, all the directors who were members of this
house voted against me. Now, that is a very striking
fact, and I may say that they have upon all occasions
shielded themselves under the system of non-responsibi-
lity. I remember an attach which I made upon Sir J.
Hobhouse and the noble lord the member for Tivertos,
and upon that occasion two or three of the members of
the Court of Directors spoke and voted against me.
Still, then I ask, what could be the responsibility felt or
acted upon by the Council! To connect the Minister to
whom the government of India may be intrusted with
such a Council would be like putting wine into water,
an operation by which both the wine and the water are
spoilt. (Hear, and a laugh.) Having stated ray objec-
tions, and the ground for them, I do not wish to detain
the house, but there is one point to which I wish to re-
fer. I know that I shalt have very high authorities
against me, and. among others, that of the noble lord
near me (Lord J. Russell) ; but the noble lord, like the
right hon. gentleman the member for the University of
Oxford, is no great authority, to my mind, in matters
of legislation. (Clear.) From the very outset of my po-
litical life I have found the noble lord in opposition.
He always puts me in mind of what we lawyers term "a
case lawyer." He knows very well whit has been done,
but he never knows what ought to be done. (A laugh.)
He is a capital pilot in the shoals and cross-currents of
party life, but put him out into the open sea and he has
neither compass nor chart. (Renewed laughter.) There-
fore, sir, having found the noble lord so often in opposi-
tion, it is with some satisfaction that on this occasion I
see him in opposition to myself. In fact, if upon the first
blush of this proposal he bad thought I was right, I
should have been disposed to think I was wrong. This is
a frank avowal. (Laughter and cheers.) I hope the
noble lord will not take it amiss that I have make this
statement,, lam quite sure that his good nature and
good feeling will go with me. (A laugh.) I move, sir,
that the word " Council" be omitted.
Lord STANLEY.—Although the question of Coun-
cil or no Council is one of the most important which can
be raised in the course of these discussions, it is one with
regard to which the argument lies in a very narrow com-
pass. (Hear, hear.) There are only two grounds upon
which objections can be taken to the appointment of a
Council. One of them was not noticed by the hon. and
learned member, and I think the committee will not
attach much importance to it, I mean that of expense.
I do not apprehend that where the question of the
efficiency of the home government of India is concerned
the committee will be inclined to attach much import-
ance to the expenditure of 10,0001. or 15,000/. more or
lees. The whole queetion, therefore, turns upon the
point—whether the appointment of a Council will, as
the hon, and learned member contends, diminish the re
sponsibility of the Minister. (Hear, hear.) Is the re-
sponsibility of the Minister necessarily incomplete if
there is a Council to assist him ? That, I apprehend,
depend upon the relations to be established between the
Minister and the Council. In the main those relations
are very simple. The Council is bound to give advice,
and the Minister is bound to hear, but he is not bound
to take it. It is for him to decide whether he will take
or reject it, and whether he takes it or rej sets it he will
equally act upon Ins own responsibnity. But then it is
said that if this Council is compoeed of persons eminent
for their knowledge of Indian affairs he will shelter him-
sal under the authority of their opinions. My answer
to that is, that the Minister will not have it in his power
to shelter himself more under the opinions advanced
by eminent persons being members of his Council
than he would if they did not stand in that relation
to him. (Hear, hear.) No doubt any Minister whose
measures were attacked would be very glad to bring
forward in his defence the opinions and authority
of men eminent as Indian statesmen. That is a
degree of shelter which he would obtain from the autho-
rity of such persons, whether they are his colleagues in
administration or not, but any other protection it is ex-
pressly provided that he shall not receive. What then
is this council intended to do ? To supply that special
departmental knowledge which it is utterly impossible
that any public man trained in the ordinary school of
English administration can possess upon purely Indian
questions. (Hear) And now let me ask the committee
what will be the result of negativing the appointment of
the Col cil 1 Doea any member of this house really
imagine that, upon any one of those multiarioue ques-
tions which come before the Deeetors of the East India
Company and the Board of Control, the Minister will
depend upon his own exclusive and unassisted judgment
formed simply upon reading the papers, and a knowledge
of the facts I Why, everyone knows that he can't. He
must rely to some extent—that, I admit, is inevitable—
upon the advice which he receives from his Council. If
he does not, he will have to depend upon that of other
persons who will be councillors in fact, though not in
name—upon the advice of the permanent officials of his
department. (hear, hear.) The hon. member says
that the members of this Council will, in reality, be irre-
sponsible Ministers for India. I answer, that their
position in that respect will be in no respect different
from that of those other irresponsible advisers whom
every head of a department habitually and necessarily
consults upon matters of departmental knowledge of
which he has no previous official experience. The only
difference is that by placing these gentlemen in a more
eminent position, by bringing them more before the
public, you will obtain for that branch of the service
men of high reputation, who have filled offices of greater
distinction than you could place in a position of direct
subordination to the Minister. I have not heard it from
the hon. and learned gentleman, but elsewhere I have
frequently heard a parallel drawn bet wren the Indian
administration and that of the Colonial department ;
and I will for one moment ask the house to inquire
how far these two administrations resemble each
other. Under the Colonial department there
are altogether about 7,000,000 of persons, of whom you
may say that, speaking roughly, 3.500,000, the popula-
tion of British North America and Australia, manage
their own affairs with very little reference to the depart-
ment at home. Under the Indian department you have,
I will not venture to say what number of persons, be-
cause I never heard two statements on the subject,
either in this house or out of it, which agreed, but putting
it eta very moderate estimate, if I were to say 140,000,000
that would be 20 times the number who are under the
Colonial Department, and that under a Government which
is of a very absolute kind. (Flear.) Then the hon. and
learned gentleman raises agreat objection to those whom
he cells 'Old Indians," and assumes that they must ex-
clusively compose this Council. -He said that there might
be eminent men among their number, but that the mass
of them knew very littl) more of Indian affairs than if they
had never been in the country. I will not stop to inquire
how much of that proposition is true and how much it is
exaggerated, and for this reason, that those whom we hope
to include in the proposed Council will be not the mass
of those who have served in India, but those whom the
hon. and learned gentleman himself admits constitute
the eminent exceptions, We have heard the worst and
the blackest side of the Anglo-Indian character stated
to-night, and I dare say there may be, as applied to a
small fraction of those who serve in India, some truth
in the description ; but we must not forget that the ser-
vice which he has so criticised has in former times pro-
duced men like Malcolm, Munroe, and Elphinstone. It
can hardly be said that men like Sir John Lawrence, Sir
H. Lawrence, if he had live-I, and Sir James Outram,
whose names are at this moment before the people of
England, are incapable of offering advice to an Indian
Administration. (Hear.) The special gain of surround-
ing the Minister for Indian affairs with men of this class
will be that you will obtain, what you can get in no other
way, that kind of knowledge which comes from personal
c intact with the natives of India, and personal experience
of what are their habits and feelings. There is, I hope, no
fear that any one undertaking the business of this de-
partment will come to it with any other than good in-
tentions, or any than a sincere desire to promote the
welfare of the natives of India ; but, unluckily, when
you are dealing with alien races, differing very much
among themselves, more mischief may be done with the
roost sincerely benevolent intentions, and by carrying
out plans which are abstractedly good, than perhaps in
any other way, or by any other error into which an
Indian statesman is likely to fall. (Hear, hear ) Again,
the hon. and learned member said that each member of
the Council will only represent some one particular part
of India, and therefore his special knowledge will be
quite useless as applied to questions affecting any other
part of the country. This is to some extent true, and
it is a very fine, and to my mind a conclusive argument
against unduly limiting the number of the proposed
Council. (hear, hear.) You do require to have, if
p itsible, each Presidency and each department of the
public service in India represented in any Council
which you are to conetitute ; but on that point I would
just observe that it may very often happen that some
persons well be competent as regards more than one
pant of India, and in more than one department ; be-
ceuie if you look into the career of most of the eminent
men who have served in Indio, you will find that they
have not serve,f all tie tens in one branch of the ser-
vice, or in one part of the c'eur.try, but have been
transferred from one poet f difficulty to another, some-
times in ono part cf India and sometimes in another,
according as the pressure and emergency of the public
service was greatest. Now, as to patronage, I shou.id
not propose to constitute a Council simply fir the pur-
pise of absorbing a certain amount of patronage which
could not ho oilier wise diliosoti ef, but there being other
reasons for its creation, I think it is werth to CDii-
si,ler how materially its existence will assist you in the
settlement of that difficult part of ,s queetien. I knew
of only two modes of dsalieg with portion of the
Indian patronage which has to be exercised in England,
and which is mainly military. Either you must vest itallin
the Minister—a °ours ) which en his account is very much
to be deprecated, and to which this house would not
readily assent—or you roust opal it altogether to au in-
tellectual and literary composition,—a mode of pro-
cedure excellent, I think, as regards the civil servile,
'and one which I cordially supeorted when its introduc-
tion was proposed by the right hon. gentleman opposite
in 1853, and when on many siies it was strenuously op.
posed,—a mode of prcceedure applicable also, I doubt

not, to the scientific branches of any service, whether
civil or military, but one upon which, I think, you
cannot AO implicitly and universally rely when it is a
question of giving away those simple military appoint •
merit, for which really one must acknowledge that high
intellectual qualifications are not those particularly re-
quired. I am far from raying that open competition
should not be introduced in the Indian service. I only
request the committee to consider how little experience
we have of that principle, how much it is" still an ex-
periment—that it is an experiment of which in a few
years mere we shall be able to see the results as exhi-
bited in the working of our civil service ; and then I ask
them whether it is not premature, whether it would not
be trusting too much to theory, to say at once and in
one sweeping measure, that the sole mode of entering
upon the non-scientific branches in India should be after
undergoing an intellectual and scit ntifie. examination. I
believe it to be a good and sound principle, but, like all
good and eound principles, it may be pushed too far.
(Hear.) I think, thee, if there are objections to at once
throwing op-u the whole patronage, if not the only
mode, still the most convenient way to deal with the
difficulty is to increase the responsibility of those who
administer it. They will be men—if the Council be con-
stituted as we hops it will be—who will ho perfectly in-
dependent of the Minister of the day or of any Minister,
—men with no desire for j ,bbery—men whose habits
arid inclinations will lead them to consider alone the
public advantage. Ido not see any more satisfactory
mode of disposing cf the patronage. These are the
grounds upon which I oppose the hon. and learned
gentleman's proposition. Whether you style them
councillors or clerks, there will always be persons
permanently employed in that department, whose
ad eta, every Minister will at least feel bound se-
fously to consider. In that way we got rid of the
patronage difficulty; and I feel that if you constitute a
council, as you may, with a due admixture, tempering
the Indian with the neutral element, you will accomplish
the end we all have in view. (Cheers.)
Mr. C. BRITCS wished to make one remark with re-
gard to an observation of the hon. and learned member
for Sheffield. The hon. member referred to the Affghan
war in support of his views, but the facts were a complete
refutation of his argument. Just before the Affghan war
broke out Lord Heytesbury was appointed to the govern-
ment of India by the late Sir R. Peel. The Government
which succeeded Sir R. Peel thought fit to cancel that ap-
pointment and to appoint an estimable and well-inten-
tioned noblemad in his place. That appointment was made
solely on party grounds, and from the want of administra-
tive abilities on the part of the well-intentioned nobleman
so appointed sprung the Affghan war.
The amendment was put and negatived without a
division.

THE COURT OF DIRECTORS AS THE COUNCIL.
Mr. LINDSAY then moved to leave out the words after
" appointment," and to insert " and that the Court of
Directors be the first council for India." He was of opi-
nion that the executive of India should be in the hands of
the Secretary of State ; but the East India Company had
proved such able administrators, and their land and sea
transport service was so well managed, that he thought
they should remain the first council for India. If his pro-
position were adopted it would get rid of clause 6,7,
and 8.
Lord STANLEY said he did not dissent from the com-
pliment which the hon. gentleman paid to the present Court
of Directors, for whatever faults might be found with the
system on which the Indian Government had been carried
on, he never said a word which was not friendly to
those who administered that system. (Hear, hear.) But
ho thought the motion of the hon, member was prema-
ture, for the committee had not yet settled for how long
a period the office was to be held. Some were to be held
for life and others of a longer or shorter period, and it
would not be right for the Government or for the house to
say, we offer you these offices, but we cannot tell you
whether or not you are to hold them for life, or for a term
of years. In 18d3 the vested.right of the Court of Direc-
tors would cease altogether, and though he would not bind
himself by any pledge, if the nomination was left in the
hands of the Crown the Government would not be pre-
cluded from accepting the very valuable assistance of some
of those who now carried on the government of the East
India Company. (Hear.)
"Lord J. RUSSELL said he wished to say a few words on
the general course of proceeding rather than the motion be-
fore the house. He should suggest that at this period of
the year, it would be advisable, after agreeing to the prin-
cipal resolutions, to proceed to a bill. (Hear, hear.) With
that view he wished to state that he should propose not
only the awe ndinont of.whishhe had given notice, that the
council should not consist of more than twelve, but he
would also propose that the whole be appointed by the
Crown. The resolutions of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer did not fix the time for which the members of the
council should be appointed ; but if the noble lord wished
he could raise that question on his motion. Then there
was the question of patronage, which was an important
one. If they had these few points settled, he thought it
would be desirable to proceed by bill, without waiting to
go through the whole of the resolutions. He agreed with
the noble lord that the Crown should be at liberty to
avail itself of the ability of any members of the present
Court of Directors. He should state what lie thought
ought to be the whole constitution of the council. (Hear.)
Lord DUNKELLIN bore testimony from personal ex-
perience,lto the efficiency of the land transport service in
India. (Hear.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the real question was,
what power the council was to have ?
Lord STANLEY said the proposition forshortening the
resolutions was ono which it was the intention of his right
hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have pro-
posed. Perhaps it would be convenient if he wera to state
that the government were agreed that the council should
consist of not less than 12, but that did not include the
Secretary of State. (Cries of "Not more than 12.")
Mr. C. BRUCE said lee had a proposition that the coun-
cil should not consist of less than 24.
The motion of Mr. Lindsay was then negatived without
a division.
Lord STANLEY said he was willing it should stand that
the council ehonle consist of 12.
Mr. ROEBUCK sane that " not less than 12" might
me an that the council was to consist of 100.
Col. SYKES moved that the chairman report progress.
(Hear, hear, and oh.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that as
the committee seemed disposed to adopt the resolution, he
hoped the hon. gentleman would not press his motion.
THE NUMBER OF COUNCIL.
Lord PALMERSTON said that many hon. members
might think that 12 was too large a number.
...4-leircl STANLEY, in reply, said that many also thought
that 12 was too small a number.
Col. SYKES said he should divide the committee if he
had not an opportunity of proposing that the number
should be 18.
The motion for reporting progress was then put and
negatived.
Mr. T. BARING said the change which the government
seemed disposed to adopt was a most serious one. The re-
solution proposed that the council should consist of not
more than 18 nor less than 12 members, the number to be
decided according to the duties of the council, but no inti-
mation had been given what those duties were to be—whe-
ther the members were to be clerks or advisers. The go-
vernment without any notice or intimation of a change in
their opinion, wished to carry into effect a complete change
in the system. That the government should, after having
deliberately made aproposition, make so sudden a change,
was an inconsistency for which he could not account.
(Cheers.) It would be better to defer the limitation until
the duties of the council were defined.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought his
hone friend had misunderstood the character of the resolu-
tion. The object of the resolution was not to obtain a de-
finite decision but to elicit the opinion of the house upon
the point. The government thought there ought to be a
council and not an inconsiderable council, and asked the
house to say whether it should not be less than 12 nor more
than 18. It was necessary to arrive at some result in order
to place a bill on the table which would contain a definite
conclusion. It appeared to be the opinion of the committee
that it would, be desirable to fix the number of the council
at 12. (" Hoar, hear," and " No, no.") It would advance
the progress of the measure to come to a decided resolution
on the subject,
Mr. V. SMITH was of opinion that the number ought
to be defined in the bill, and that the committee ought to
confine itself to saying that the number should not be more
than 12. (Laughter.)
Mr. C. BRUCE could not agree with the Chancellor of
the Exchequer that the opinion of the committee was in
favour of fixing the number at 12. He thought 13 was the
least number that ought to be adopted. If the proposition
before the committee should be adopted it would preclude
him from proposing that the number be 18.
Lord PALMERSTON said the question before the com-
mittee involved a most important principle. It was
neither more nor less than this—whether, when the change
took place, the government of India should take place in
London or in India. If the details of the government of
India were to be transacted in London, the council ought
to be a large one ; but if the interference of the govern•
anent in Loudon was to be restricted to narrow limits, a
much smaller number would be more convenient. It was
natural that a trading company should exercise a close
supervision over all its transactions in India. But
that was not the manner in which parliament considered
the dependencies of the crown ought to be governed,
and if parliament thought the duties of the council
should be confined to general matters and not to petails,
a large council would be trOublesome; and a small one
much more convenient. Instead of attempting to fix the
number he thought it would be better to leave the number
to be fixed by the bill after the functions of the council
had been fully considered. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed in the general principle laid
down by his noble friend (Lord Palmerston). Heretofore a
great quantity of details had been gonethroughinthis
country. The change now proposed could not take effect
for some time to come, and if there should be a small
council at first, there might be such a mass of paper that
it would be almost impossible to deal with them. He
thought the proposal of the noble lord (Stanley), that the
council should consist of 12, a vary good one, and that the
crown ought to have the power of diminishing the number
to ten or eight. (Hear.)
Mr. C. BRUCE said the council would be a kind of court
of appeal in Indian affairs, and that the business could not
be carried on with a less number than 18.

Mr. T. BARING appealed to the justice of the Govern-
. no,nt to consider this question, which was a most serious
one. Theyhal agreed to reduce the number of the council
tc.l2
without any notice or explanation whatever. On the
decision of the committee on this point depended the ques-
tion whether the power of the government in India should
be increased and the directi,n and supervision of the Go-
vernment at home should be diminished. There had been
no discussion as to the exact number ; it was to have been
supposed -e that the Government, having rnaturod the reso-
lution, prepared to abide by it, and if they were
g o
forreerleuce the Pinnber, he trusted they would allow
time
discussion. (11e,r.)
itiinog n,
to
were
M-. P. O'BRIEN considered the Government wore in an
unhappy position between the hon, member for Hunting-
don, an ell member of their party, on ono side—(question)
--and the noble lord the member fur the city of London,
%eh., hid got them out of the scrape before, on the other.
(Loud cries of " Question ") He was speaking as to the
constitution of the council, a most important subject, and
bill. gentlemen hal no right to call "Question." " Cries
of " Qeestion" and "Divide.”)
Sir G. GREY thought the committee ought not to be
called on to fix the number until they knew the duties of
the council, and how it was to be composed. Ho would
suggest to the right hon. gentleman to omit all reference
to the number, and leave it to be decided in committee on
the bill.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no
doubt he would facilitate tho passinc, of tho resolution by
adopting the suggestion of.the righChon. baronet; and if
ho were to treat all the other resolutions the same way he
might pass them that evening ; but the result would be,
they would have to renew all the discussion during the