The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-03 00:00:00

Pll3 S

council, and their compulsory residence would entail
upon them great expense.
Mr. V. SMITH said if first-rate man were to be ap-
pointed members of the council, 1,2001. or even 2,0001.
a year would not be too large a sum for them, as they
would be equal to privy councillors and men holding
high office in the State. But he did not think
that would be the condition of the council. The
Directors of the East India Company were in possession
of 5001. a year with patronage ; and he never heard that
those gentlemen complained of the inadequacy of their
salaries. If the East India Directors elected four of the
gentlemen already Directors who would not attend more
than once a week from their other pursuits, 5001. a year
would be enough for them ; while for the nominees
of the Crown he admitted 1,2001. a year would not be
too much.
Lord STANLEY thought two scales of salary objec-
tionable. It was not the intention of the bill to bind the
persons appointed on the council to give up the whole
of their time and to abandon every other support; but
et would be expected of them that they should give
tile as much time as the performance of the duties would
req
Mr. LOWE said the only difficulty the committee
was in was that they were called upon to assess the
salary for duties on the nature of which they had no in-
formation. If the duties were to be those of the Court
of Directors he thought 5001. a-year would be sufficient,
but if the duties were to be those of a permanent
secretary in a public office he considered that 1,2001.
a-year would be by no means exorbitant. He deplored
L the reckless manner in which money was squandered
away in that house—money that would spread education
over whole districts and mitigate the horrors of
a perverse religion, and all this to be wrung out of
the sweat and blood of a miserably oppressed people.
(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SYKES (Director) spoke of the vast amount
of business the Directors of the East India Company had
to discharge. He considered 8001. or 1,0001. a year
would be sufficient, and that it should be considered an
honorarium.
Mr. M. MILNES considered 1,2001. a year not too
much for the members of the council.
Mr. WHITE thought the work would be as well done
by men at 5001. a year as at 1,2001. a year.
Mr. WILLIAMS considered 5001. a year salary suf-
ficient, especially as the patronage was valued in 1853 as
worth 6,000/. a-year. (Oh, Oh !) The finances of
India were in that embarrassed state that, if they con-
tinued this profligate system of expenditure, the re-
sources of England would be called upon to meet it, and
they would have to tax the people of England to make
up the deficiency of India.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL considered the decision of
the committee, giving patronage to the council, and de-
pricing them from seats in that house had greatly in-
creased the difficulties of the subject. If the opinion of
the lion, member for Lambeth was correct in reference
to the patronage, he (Lord J. Russell) feared it would
result injuriously to India. On the whole, he thought
1,2001. a-year was not too much if they were to have
the best men, and guard against the misapplication of
the patronage.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that the bill and the amend-
ments, coupled with the statements of the members of
her Majesty's Government, he presumed the council
would have daily duties to discharge. (Hear.) It ap•
peered to him that it was the intention of her tier Ma
jesty's Government to divide the work into committees
subject to the direction of the President of the Council.
Tu,:a,P•t.--7;or thy' minds of hon. members with re-
ference to the bill was nisi it ei..o.ed to the c,ngeil they
must devote their whole time to the duties of their olhue,
and he had been informed by Captain Sheppard, at pre-
sent a director, chairman of the Hudson's Bay Company
and deputy chairman of the Trinity Board, that if he were
elected a inemberof the council he should consider himself
bound to resign those two offices. (Hear, hear.) He
had no desire to spend one rupee more than was neces-
sary, to advance the happiness of the people of
India, and he thought nothing would conduce more
towards the attainment of that object than by having
a well constituted Government in this country. On the
whole, he considered the sum named in the bill not too
much for the members of the council, understanding
that the devotion of time meant such reasonable attend•
ance as the President of the Council might require.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said it
was not desirable to introduce into the bill words
rigidly preventing the members of the council from per-
forming other duties, but to leave it to the President of
the Council to define their duties and attendance, ac-
cording to the necessities of the case. The disposal of
their time to the duties of the office would not preclude
the members of the council from attending to other
duties. It would, however, be a matter of election,
whether gentlemen would place their timeat the disposal
of the office, or adhere to their counting-houses
duties in a rigid manner. Ha thought, however, the
members of the council, although called on to place
their time at the disposal cf their offices, would
permit them to maintain, in a modified form, their
relation with the pursuits that had heretofore
entirely absorbed their lives. He considered a salary cf
1,2001. rayes.r by no means too much. The subject was
a very difficult one. They had heard many sums men-
tioned, and the hon. member for Aberdeen had said that
whilst 8001. a-year would be an honorarium, 1,2001.
a-year would be an insult. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
He considered the members of the council ought not to
be paid less than the Lords of the Treasury. (Divide.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS considered the difficulty of fixing
the amount of salary arose from the large number of
councillors. He supported the sum named by the Go-
vernment in the bill, but suggested a modification of
the clause, to the effect that the BUM should not exceed
1,2001., which would enable the Government at any
future time to adapt the salary to the actual duties
hereafter to be discharged by the members of the
council.
Lord STANLEY said it was better to fix the sum,
and if it was found hereafter there was a diminution of
duties, he thought it would be better for the Govern-
ment of the day to come to Parliament for a bill to re-
duce the members of the council rather than provide in
the bill for a reduction of salary.
After some further conversation, Mr. COLLIER, ex-
pressed his wish to withdraw his amendment, but it was
objected to by the committee.
After a few words from Mr. Coningham, Sir E. Perry,
Sir J. Elphinstone, Mr. Lowe, Mr. Cox, and Mr.
Elliott,
The committee divided. The numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority --167
The clause, after some further discussion fixing the
salary at 1,200/. a-year, was agreed to.
Oa clause 14, which provides retiring pensions after
10 years' service,
Sir F. BARING urged there should be a uniformity
of retiring pensions. A man should not be induced to
continue in office longer than be was capable of effi-
ciently discharging the duties, with a view of obtaining
a large pension.
Mr. RICH moved, as an amendment, that the period
of retirement should be at the end of 15 years instead
of 10 years.
Lord STANLEY defended the clause. Many men
might be practically incapable of discharging the duties
at the end of 10 years ; whilst others might be able to
do so at the end of 15 years. It was to meet the former
case that the clause had been drawn and the distinction
in amount made. There was as much objection and
abuse in getting men to resign, as there was in inducing
them to hold office for the higher pension ; but he
thought the proposal in the clause was one that the com-
mittee might agree to.
Mr. GLADSTONE objected to pension., except in
cases where the country had had the benefit of the
whole of a man's services. He objected to men coming
back from India in the enjoyment of pensions in respect
of services rendered in thae country being put into offices,
giving them new titles, and after a short period of ser•
vice giving them claim to accumulation pensions.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to
appoint men at present in the enjoyment of pensions for
services in India. The object of the clause was to pre-
vent men who were disabled after a certain period, and
were unable to perform their duties, from hanging on to
their situations and their salaries to the detriment of the
government of India.
Lord STANLEY said if the committee would take
the clause as it stood, down to 5001. after 10 years' ser•
vice, he was ready to consent to the omission from the
bill of the remainder of the clause.:
After some further discussion, in which Mr. Ayrton,
Mr. Elliott, and Mr. Mangles took part,
The clause, amended as suggested by Lord Stanley,
was agreed to, a proviso being added relative to the
reduction of the number of the council when Parliament
might think fit.
On the motion that clause 14, as amended, stand part
HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY. of
Me bill,
r. GLADSTONE said that at present, in reference
The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock. to the directors of the East India Company, her Ma-
PRIVATE BUSINESS. jest's Government had power to compel the resignation
The Lords' amendments to the following billy were of a director from physical incapacity, and he was not
baondurS(ocuotnhs-Wolidesatteiornn RofaAilwetaT);
considered and agreed to—Cornwall Railway, London disposed to surrender that principle. He thought some
provision should be introduced into the bill, retaining
Merseyltlerse Docks and Hare
that power.telative to the number of the council.
The Great Southern of India Railway CompanyP Jet'
hour (New Works), Halifax Park and Itn rovemoote Lord STANLEY said it was provided for in the bill,
by an address from both Houses of Parliament to the
Docks and Har-
and the Warrington and Stockport Railway (Capitnal')l Crown for that purees
Bill were read a third time and passed. Mr, &LADS FONE thought it objectionable.
The Holroyd Estate Bill was read a second time. After some further conversation,
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. BILL (No. 2). mittee on the clause.
The house went into committee on this bill, resuming Mr. RICE said lie would take the sense of the com-
The committee divided. The numbers were—
at clause 13 For the clause as amended 199
Mr. COLLIER moved as an amendment that the Against it
members of the council should have 5001. a year each Majority --93
instead of 1,2001., as propo-ed in the bill. The council
reedg
would have great patronage, and with such men as those The clause, as amended, was se-treed to.
Clause 15, regulating theadministrative establishments
who would compose the council a desire to servo their
the Home Government, gave rise to some discussion,
friends would be a greater inducement than mere
oa
greed
Clausesr ed to. to 1
toamendments,Kith verbal
was
salary,
amendments.
l 0,
1 "
Lord STANLEY epposed the amendment. He and the clause,_ alter some,wevreer
and 18
thought 1,200/. a year was not too much for men who
would have to pass the greater part of their time in• • •
Clause 19 was under consul( ratton, when
London. He took that opportunity of stating that he
The Committee suspended its sitting at 4 o'clock.
intended inserting a proviso to the effect that no member The house
of the council should be entltied to a pension who had resurned at six o'clock.
THE UNIVidtSITY OF SCOTLIND DILL.
not served ten year. Col. SYKES pave notice that on the bringing up of the
Mr. GREGSON die not think the whole time of the report on the el-Diversity of Scotland Bill, ho would move
members of the council would be required. They would that the Provost and Council of Aberdeen have leave to be
only have to attend the board once a week, and he heard by council against the bill.
thought 5001. a year would be sufficient. For that MILITARY AND CRIMINAL LAW.
and the patronage attached to the office, he thought Mr. WARREN gave notice that ear
criminal law, and
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said would move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the
criminal law at quarter sessions.
that, although the members of the council would have
to meet once THE BRITISH MUSEUM.
a week in a council, a daily attendance of I Mr. TURNER moved fora copy of any communications
many hours would be required of them in addition. I to the trustees, from the heads of departments in the Bri-
There were many men who were not habitually resident i tish museum, with reference to-the memorial of certain
in London, who would be very efficient members of the 1 assistants on the subject of ealatics, of the 11th day of

••••••••••••••.. - •
the religious services of the Church. (Flettr, For the
interest of the Dissenters themselves and a f all those
who wished the matter settled on lair grow nd, it was
most important not only that the bill should be rejected
by a considerable majority, but that the maje rity should
be so large and overwhelming as to render it manifestly
hopeless to carry a bill for absolute and nec 9nditional
repeal. (Cheers.) He would venture to say tt ) the Dis-
senters on the part of the Church and en the part of her
Majesty's Government that they should be met in the
most friendly and conciliatory spirit ; otherwise they
must stand by the present law. (Eiear.) He v. ,as con-
vinced that the larger the majority against ui \condi-
tional repeal the better prospect there would be of
bringing a'l parties to a reasonable and fair settle meat
of this great and most important question. (H t ar.)
The noble earl concluded by moving that the bill be
a second ti me that day six months.

The Archbishop of CANTERBURY, who spoke verve
indistinctly, was understood to say that some legal
,pro-
vision was absolutely necessary for the support of )
the fabric and the religious services of the church,
he believed that nineAenths of the parishes of the co !Au-
try entertained that opinion. Under the voluntu ry
system the clergy would be placed in a situation
most distressing and galling. He believed that ti ie
change now proposed would, if carried out, be produc-
tive of very great evil, and that the result would be tbs A
the next generation would see many of our churches it
a state of decay and ruin. (Hear, hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE observed that it bad been said,
and said truly, that a great majority of their lordships
had not been committed to any opinion on this question
at all. There were some exceptions—those who had
belonged to the governments of the last twenty years,
and especially to the two last governments, who were
so far committed that they might be supposed to be in-
fluenced by the opinions given by their colleagues in
another place. But the question now assumed another
phase, for they found that for the first time a bill for the
total abolition of church rates had been passed by the
other house. He had carefully and conscientiously con-
sidered the course it was his duty to take, and he had
come to the conclusion that he should vote for the
second reading of this bill, and he believed that the
passing of this bill would be most advantageous fur the
church itself. The law had been laid down by great
authorities that evening. Lord Sr. Leonards laid it
down, to his great surprise, that the church bad the sante
title to church rates that their lordships had to their pri-
vate property. There was no doubt that by the com-
mon law of England there was the right and the duty to
repair the fabric of the church, and that the mode of
doing so was by church rates. But, on the other band,
there was no remedy. To s being the state of the law,
what was the state as regarded the facts ? As their lord-
ships were aware, in a large number of parishes church
I rates were practically and completely abolished.

A Nozeu LORD—In not more than five per cent.
Earl GRANVILLE said the noble lord was referring
to the number of parishes rather than to the popu-
lation. It was not necessary for him to refer to the
bickering and the strife occasioned by this state of
things. He ibelieved that at this moment there was
an organisation which was likely to increase the num-
ber of parishes in which no rate was levied, and by which
the opposition would be extended even to the rural
parishes. Therefore he considered that the longer the
settlement of this question was deferred the more diffi-
cult would they find it to deal with. Printed papers were
c'reulated showing the best way of opposing the levying
or ... sei,e, se dhe believed it. hal arrived at this point. A
calculation was made at the time—be ha:este! it vsea
three years—during which they might successfully op-
pose the payment. He appealed to their lordships whe-
ther this was a state of things which it was desirable
should be continued. Different modes of getting rid of
the difficulty had been proposed. The one proposed by
his noble friend was to abolish church rates altogether,
and to leave the maintenance of the fabrics to voluntary
efforts. He was not so much afraid of the voluntary
principle as some of their lordships who had spoken.
He found the parish churches where church rates were no
longer levied, and the district churches to which church
rates were not applicable, had been better supported than
the chui ones in parishes where the rates were still levied,
and he could not believe that a great and wealthy esta-
blishment like the Church of England, comprising
amongst its members the most wealthy in the land, would
suffer the churohes to fall into decay for want of repair.
As to the character of the opposition to church rates, it
was admitted on all hands that hostility to the established
church did not characterise the whole of the opponents
to church rates, and be believed that a great number of
the dissenters were friendly, and not hostile to the esta-
blished church. He admitted, however, that a portion of
them were diametrically opposed to the established
church, and that they supported this measure as a means
of subverting it. If their lordships rejected this bill, they
would promote the views of the latter party he had re-
ferred to. He did not agree with his noble friend that it
was advisable to pass this measure and suspend its opera-
tion. The speech of the noble earl (Derby) showed him
that be had carefully considered the subject, and he (Lord
Granville) thought the best course was that their lord-
ships should agree to the second reading of the bill, and
that they should go into committee of the whole house
upon it or refer it to a select committee, and if govern-
ment would then take upon themselves to introduce
amendments, that would be a more satisfactory way of
coming to a conclusion on the subject than rejecting the
bill, and waiting for the pledge of the noble lord that Le
would bring in a bill next year. He should therefore
vote for the second reading of the bill, firmly believing
that the sooner they could arrive at a settlement of this
question the better it would be for al parties concerned.
The Bishop of LONDON said in reference to the
voluntary system that many churches had of late been
built in his diocese by voluntary subscriptions. There
was no difficulty in raising money for building them,
but experience had shown there were infinite difficulties
in maintaining them after they were built. Many of
there were now in anything but good repair, and the
curates of them had to supplicate assistance for keeping
them open. Iu poor districts the difficulties were the
greatest, and the impression amougat the poorer classes
was that the abolition of church rates would not benefit
them but the saving would go into the pockets of those
above them. He believed Dissenters had no real hos-
tility to the Established Church ; they knew she was
now as she had been in times past—the bulwark that
defended them against what they feared more than they
did the Established Church ; and when they were
threatened some time since with papal aggression, the
Dissenters of this country looked up to the Established
Church as the protector of religious freedom. All were
agreed it was desirable to settle this question, and he re-
gretted it could nct be done this session ; but the bill
before the house he thought was not likely to attain that
object, and he asked their lordships not to take a step
that would be injurious to the Established Church. With
regard to the committee referred to by the noble duke
who moved the second reading of the bill, the right rev.
prelate said that the noble duke had not given a
correct statement of the decision they came to. It was
true they were in favour of the voluntary system to as-
sist them in providing for spiritual destitution, but it was
not looked to as a means of taking away 300,0001. a
year from the Church, but as a subsidiary to the present
means. (Hear, hear, and "Divide.")
Earl GREY said the labouring population and the
poor had a right to have the churches of this land and
the established religion maintained by the rich.
Lord CAMPBELL thought that to abolish church
rates without a compensating equivalent being proposed,
would be both unjust to the poor and to the Church.
The Earl of GALLOWAY opposed the bill. It would
damage the Church, and introduce great confusion into
the country.
Lord PORTMAN supported the bill. The present
system had failed to suppurt the fabric of the Church ;
therefore, some new system ought to be introduced. He
believed that the time had come for the framing of some
such bill as that now before their lordships.
The Bishop of OXFORD opposed the bill, and warned
their lordships that the true object of those who bad op-
posed the church rates was the destruction of the Church
establishment.
Lord STANLEY ef ALDERLEY supported the bill,
and reminded their lordships that the noble earl at the
head of the Government had formerly extended the very
relit f to the Roman Catholics of Poland which he now
reftlsed to the Dissenters of England.
( after a few w ords from the Doke of SOUERSET,
Their lordships divided—
Content—Present
Proxies - - d

-3G
NOC-COliteDtS..—PrreoSeCt lO9
pxies
78
—lB7

IvLjority against the second read-
of
the bill
Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter past one
o'clock.