The Sun.
London, England, 1858-11-16 00:00:00

Seymour had propounded to the meeting. He (Mr.
Jones) was desirous of aiding in bringing about a
cordial union :between the middle and working
classes, whom some politicians had characterised,
erroneously as he thought, as natural enemies.
Manhood suffrage was a measure which he (Mr.
Jones) and those with whom he acted were resolved
to carry. Mr. Seymour had said he would give a
vote to every male adult who was the occupier of a
house or part of a house in cities and boroughs
having a certain population and upwards. But
Mr. Seymour appeared to overlook the fact that his
plan would go to withhold the right of voting from
millions of the population in certain boroughs
which he would disfranchise on the ground that
their population iu each case was less than 7,000.
(" Hear, hear," and a voice " They would vote for
the counties.") Again, Mr. Seymour held that no
man should have a vote who could not read and
write. He (Mr. Jones) would wish to see every
man capable at the least of reading and writing ;
but he was also in favour of every man having a
vote, whether or not he could read and write. What
was education ? It was not reading and writing, or
a knowledge of Greek and Latin ; the true educa-•
tion was to feel the right, and then to have the
will to do it. He had seen many a man who could
neither read nor write, and who, nevertheless, had.
more sense in his little finger, and more honesty in
his great heart, than many a peer of the realin. It
was curious to see men, after toying with rose-
water Reform Bills, falling back more or less on the
principles of the people's charter. He exhorted the
meeting, with all the solemnity and all the earnest-
ness in his power, never to permit themselves. to
swerve or vacillate in their demand for manhood
suffrage—never to tolerate any extension of the
franchise that did not give a vote to every man of
21 years of age, of sound mind, and not undergoing
Ipunishment for any crime. He contended, besides
—and this was a new argument—that every man
ought to have full power and control over his own
vote. So long as that vote was based on an occu-
pation or a rating qualification, it was not the
voter's own property, but that of the man to whom
the house belonged. Excepting the two cases of
freeholders and leaseholders, every man's vote un-
der such a system would be in the power of his
landlord. With working men short tenancies were
the order of the day ; they held houses at weekly
or monthly rents, and many of them from their own
employers ; and if the occupation of a house or the
payment of rent was to qualify in such cases, the
working man would be in the power of his land-
lord or his employer, and his vote would not be free.
Therefore, he contended that nothing short of man-
hood suffrage, coupled with the ballot, would be
satisfactory to the great body of the people. He
submitted that the tendency of Mr. Locke
King's Bill would be still more to strengthen
the hands of the aristocracy. A £lO house in a
rural district was equal to a £6O house in London
or. a £3O house in a large manufacturing town ;
and did any of them think that working-
men lived in £lO houses in the rural villages ?
(" No," and a laugh.) No; it was the small shop-
keepers, who were more dependent on the squire or
the parson than the .250 tenants-at-will, and who
would be coerced beyond control by the, landed
aristocracy. He would say, in conclusion, that he
desired to see this Reform Bill, whenever it was
propounded to Parliament, carried out without
riot, bloodshed, or violence of any kind. He be-
lieved that any popular movement which was
sullied-by riot or violence hardly ever came to a
successful termination ; and that any right of the
people gained by physical force rarely gave satis-
faction.- He trusted, at the same time, that. the
spirit of the people would be far different from
what it had been. He believed that their submis-
sive disposition had been a contumely and a dis-
grace. Abject, mean, and slavish, they had en-
dured too far, and deferred too long the vindication
of their rights. It had been their fiunkeyism—
(cheers)—their toadyism of the higher and piddle
classes—of broadcloth instead of corduroy
,and fus-
tian, which made those who trampled on them de-
spise them while they did so. He honoured the
working men because they were the foundation of
our national greatness ; and he would counsel them
to be no longer patient and submissive, but in calm
majestic energy to gather their concentrated force
together, and make one grand effort for the achieve-
ment of their political emancipation. (Cheers.)
Several other speakers addressed the meeting, and
the proceedings did not terminate till a late hour.

come with safety. This was the practice with Bel-
gium...and. the United States,- and it would be a
shame if we did not follow the example. Then, as '
to passing tolls. The objection to their abolition
was taken that it would interfere with some private
rights, and could only be done by giving notice, as
in the case of a private Act of Parliament. As they
werc.told this last year and the year before, he
hoped that. Parliament .had found it their duty to
give the necessary.notice. Then the Trinity House
of Newcastle.had no right to accumulate funds at
all ; all they had to do was to get that which was
requisite to maintain the lights; the pilots—a body
amen he could never speak of without admiration
oii ht to: have charge of them. There was some
vaTue m an Old name, and he • believed the people
intended to act in the • Corporation of the Trinity
House' were practically interested in the navigation
.of the river. The usurpation of the Trinity House
'ofNeweastle was perfectly indefensible ; and he
did not know why Sunderland should be called a
creek of Newcastle. Sunderland was a great
thriving town, and really an example of maritime
enterprise to all towns,"and ought not to be obliged
to be governed under the license of some people in
Ne*castle, who did not possess one-fifth part of
their shipping. This was an abuse which was un-.
endurable, and though it did not concern them it
must no doubt be rectified. With respect to stamps:
and insurances,.every .tax on insurance was a tax
on industry and providence, and the tax on the in-
surance of property was generally this, a tax which
might be reduced. Then, as to the shipowners' lia-
bility in respect to passengers, he would be glad
anuin to take the same course he took with
his
friend Mr. Alderman Robinson. He trusted
that the long: time he had had the pleasure of
having experience of them, and the frankness of
the communications with which the shipowners
had at all times favoured- him, would not leave
him under any doubt as to what he should gladly
dO to the best of his power whenever they gave him
instructions, or whenever, by his residence in Lon-
don, he could see anything which it might be for
their interest to prosecute. The only qualification
which it was necessary to give to that declaration
was in the statement of 'what in his opinion was
the grand result of those measures of free trade to
which. he had alluded ; but he trusted that, without
being called upon to do anything which might
trenc upon that, they would be able next time
they met not only to say there had been a natural
revival of commerce, and that they were receiving
something like remuneration for the enterprise and
capital engaged in the trade, but that some of those
grievances which really affected them, more from
a sense of injustice than the actual pressure of the
payment, had been entirely abolished. (Applause.)

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVEN'iNG, NOVEMBER 16, 1858.

whole statements agreed, and the sta+mment of the
tne ova; s 'Last bill was before
learned Recorder agreed with the Test. (Hear.)
By the masterly statement. of 'An Holt in the
thatHou saessoefmbly,
an Commons,im wpillessilio h
produced upon
those members who heard it, and :I:believe upon the
Secretary of State for the Home 'Department, that
that part of the proposed bill Which went to the
spoliation of the corporation, to take from its
revenues without any compensa ,tion would not for
a moment hold water, and the t all was dropped, and
I believe that the present I.ecretary of State is
anxious, whilst he gives alfrl attention to a due
measure of reform, to avoid o,a the other hand any-
thing like spoliation or undu'q attacking corporal
tions which shall sap the To undations upon which
property is held. As state d in the report, he ins,
tends to bring in the bill a s it came from the select,
committee of the House of. Commons in the last ses-.
sion. The language is, " a Lill founded upon that,"
arid the Secretary of State, a'esirous as he is to hear
the reasons and consult the wishes of the citizens
of London, invites you to send him an acj,
credited deputation in order that he may learn!
your wishes, and, if possible, mould a bill to!
suit what is' just to you and what the public exi-i
gencies reqUire. We believe that he will not
attempt that which we d eOgnate spoliation -and'
injustice ; that he will not take from our property'
without giving us an equi talent; and that he will
_ncfl so reduce the number of this court as was pro-
posed by the bill. (Rear, hear.) There are a:
number of other ameliarations which are worth
listening to if you would give the committee power
to approach him in that. spirit. Does the report
ask to give us any undefined powers? These very;
powers were given to us:i in June last. If the court
are desirous of having such a measure as shall meet
the public objects in. view, and at the same time
not unduly damage orr depress this ancient corpora-
tion, they will agree with the committee in their
report. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. L. TAYLOR- —I think the committee are
acting- prematurely in bringing up this report.
Their principal object in meeting to-day is to take
the sense of the court as to the propriety of the
corporatien introducing a bill of their own. If it
had not been for tha .t feeling on the part of the
committee they would not have brought up a report
asking for the powers which it contains. It appears
to me that it will be time enough for this court to
give powers to the committee when they have the
bill before them ; but at the present moment
.the
committee are asking- that this court shall place in
their hands the entire power of determining, what
course they shall purl, lie, and what they shall accept
on the part of the corporation in reference to any
reform. There can be no doubt whatever that if
once the committee have the power to deal with
the Government upon the question of reform, the
court will never recall that power, and the com-
mittee will act as if 'they were the whole court.
(Hear, hear.) I repeat, wait until the bill is pro-
duced, because no power that you can place •in
the hands 'of a committee, who will delegate their
power to a deputation, will have the least effect
upon the minister in. respect to the prepara-
tion of the bill. I think it of the utmost im-
portance that a conference should take place
with the Government, and I believe that a mutual
understanding will result therefrom. I think it
would be unwise to stand and let the Government
deal with 'us as it thinks proper. I think that
we should do all in our power -to get such a
reform bill as the majority think is best ; but upon
such a_ vital question as that of the protection of
our property, I think it of the utmost consequence
that we should endeavour to obtain interviews with
the minister, and urge him to protect the interests
of the citizens of London. (Hear,, hear.) I be-
lieve that the court have great confidence in the
committee, but it is unwise to delegate to any ssec-
tion the whole power of the court. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BLAKE said it ought to be reniembered that
a bill that emanated from the minister could not be
laid before the court till it was first introduced in
the House of Commons, and it would then be too
late to discuss its provisions. He trusted that the
gentlemen who had for years advocated reform in
that court would not from any petty jealousy take
from the instruments which they themselves had
createdthe means of effecting good. (Hear.)
Mr. BESLEY hoped that the report would be
unanimously agreed to.
Mr. YOUNG was in favour of the amendment.
Mr. GRESHAM did not like the idea of giving
absolute power to the committee
,to deal with the
Government.
-Mr. DE JERSEY said he did not think that the
corporation ought to defer the consideration of the
matter till the Government bill was brought before
them, but that they themselves ought to meet the
Government, and endeavour to convince them that
the court was anxious for all necessary reforms.
Alderman CUBITT—a take it for granted that this
court does desire that this great question should be
settled. I will just remind the court that when
the bill was ttr committee; and just before it left, it
had got all those parts which apply properly to the
reform of the corporation into a condition which
was very nearly such as we could have assented to,
but after having got through all those parts we
then came to the great fiscal question, by which the
City was to have been deprived of a large amount
of property, and there we felt it our duty to make
a stand. It was in consequence of that that the bill
was thrown out. We are now told by the Secretary
of State for the Home Department that the bill which
he feels it his duty to bring in will be founded upon
what I understand to be similar to the bill brought
before the House of Commons last year. After we
had been battling in the committee-room for a con-
siderable time—having reported to the Court of
Common Council from time to time—the Court of
Common Council at length, in order to carry it
through with the least possible delay, did invest
the committee with power to make the best ar-
rangement it possibly could, and it only did not
make that arrangement because it could not do so
without sacrificing the interests of the 'city of Lon-
don, and therefore, although it had the power, the
Court of Common Council having given it the
power, it felt that it must not increase that power.
It refrained,therefore, and it recommended that the
bill be opposed, and it was opposed ; it was opposed
successfully, and was withdrawn. Well, now, as I
said, we are really. desirous—l am sure that the
whole corporation is really desirous—that this great
question should be settled, and that the greater
number of the corporation are satisfied that some-
thing in the way of reform should be done. Surely,
then, the sooner it is done the better, and the way
to get this carried through and soon will be to have
an understanding with the Minister while he is yet
drawing a bill. (Hear, hear.) It seems to me that
upon that question will depend whether we are to
have another conflict in the House of Commons.
If the bill is drawn and laid on the table of the
House of Commons without our having had an op-
portunity of reading it in any way, I am satisfied
that it must be a bill which you must oppose, and
then we shall have to enter upon another session of
Parliament with another conflict before us, with no
sort of notion of how long that may be carried on.
I think that the Court of Common Council might
very safely delegate these powers to portions of its
own body such as havebeen appointed for this pur-
pose. Ido most earnestly hope that the court will
agree with the committee intheir report. (Cheers.)
Deputy HARRISON said the committee proposed
that the court should transfer to them the entire
power of the corporation with reference to sugges-
tions for their reform—that the committee should
have an uncontrollable, power to pledge him and
every member of the court. The suggestion of
the amendment was, that the committee should be
_required to report to the court any arrangement
that they Might-be able' to suggest. "Committees
had hitherto never been allowed to pledge the court
to anything, but had come with details and sug-
gestions which were submitted to the court. It was
the bounden duty of the court to see any provisions
before they were agreed to. Under these circum-
stances he felt it his duty to support the amend-
ment.
Deputy LOTT trusted that the court would con-
tinue to repose confidence in the committee.
Mr. T. H. FRY said, he considered that the cor-
poration had arrived at the most critical period of
its history. The government asked the corporation
to confer with them, for the purpose of seeing whe-
ther the government and the City could agree to
the provisions of a bill which would satisfy both
parties. The very necessity of the conference was,
that both parties should be accredited. If the
committee had no credentials, the minister would
introduce a bill of his own. The Home Secretary
was anxious to bring in a bill that should satisfy
the corporation, and if the present opportunity
were not embraced of conferring with the govern-
ment previous to the introduction of the bill, one of
the best opportunities of framing a measure suitable
to the requirements of the time, honourable to the
City of London, and satisfactory to the country,
would be lost. (Hear, hear.) Ile trusted that the
report would be carried unanimously.
After some further discussion, the amendment
was.put and carried by a large majority.
Mr. Cox called for a division, when there ap-
peared—

For the affirmative
For the negative
The amendment was then pui as the original
motion and carried.
PUBLIC DRINKING FOUNTAINS.

Mr. ANDERTONifiVeI;tiCe of the following mo-
tion :—" That it be referred to the City Lands
Committee to examine and report upon the desira-
bility of erecting for the benefit of the working and
labouring classes public drinking fountains within
the City of London, with power to confer with the
Commissioner's 'of Sewers thereon, and if necessary

the Metropolitan Board of Works. And should
the same be found desirable, then to ascertain the
sites where they would be most convenient and
useful. Also the probable cost of the erection of
each of such fountains, and the probable annual ex-
pense of maintaining the same when erected, and
to suggest the means for defraying the costs and
charges of erecting and supporting the same, whe-
ther by voluntary contributions or otherwise, and
if by voluntary contributions that this Court do
subscribe towards the same such sum as the Court
may hereafter in its wisdom think fit."
The Court adjourned.