The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-10 00:00:00

as to the estimate they might be disposed to form of the
feelings of the people. it seemed to him that they ought
to avoid above all things the suspicion, which he was afraid
they were likely to incur, of dealing falsely, and pretend-
ing to make a large enfranchisement, and at the same time
of taking care to give a small one. His own opinion was
that they might do anything with the people of England if
they were treated honestly and above-board ; but fraud, dis-
simulation, circuitous methods, would have no effect.
(Oh, oh, and cheers.) He spoke of legislative fraud ;
they might call it what they liked. He was afraid
plenty of people would be found who would em-
ploy stronger words. He did not use the word in
any personal sense ; he gave gentlemen opposite the same
credit with regard to their motives, intentions, and rules of
personal action as he claimed for himself. He would, how-
ever, withdraw the word " fraud " altogether. Any ad-
justment of provisions in anAct of Parliament which should
produce upon the public mind, as these provisions were now
widely producing, the impression and the conviction that
Parliament was paltering in a double sense with the people
of England—professing to give that which it meant in sub-
stance, as to the far greater part, to withhold—instead of
being a settlement of the question of Reform, would be a
blow to the honour and credit of the Legislature, and a
serious injury to the institutions of the country. (Cheers.)
Lord J. Nr.iNNERS and Mr. Maasu supported the amend-
ment.

Mr. GREENE, in a humorous speech, recommended
the Opposition to withdraw their hostility to the bill, and
predicted that if they did not they would be defeated by a
large majority.

Mr. WHITBREAD urged that the proposition, if agreed
to, would be tantamount to inflicting a fine on the land-
lord, who, in his turn, would recoup himself by raising the
rent on his tenant.

Mr. KENDALL supported and Mr. FAWCETT opposed the
amendment, the latter arguing that its immediate effect
would be to fau the flames of agitation out of doors.

After some observations from Mr. GOLDNEY,
Mr. J. B. SMITH expressed his intention to support the
amendment, chiefly on the ground that as the house was
about to admit a new class of voters to the franchise they
were entitled to make terms with them, and to say that if
the compound householder did not discharge all the duties
of citizenship he was not entitled to all its privileges.
Mr. LOWE commented upon the unsubstantial principles
upon which the bill was based, and asked with what show
of consistency could the Government insist upon the per-
sonal payment of rates when they were ready to admit
the lodger, who bore no portion of the public burden, and
discharged none of the duties of citizenship.

Mr. BRIGHT -I shall neither entertain nor weary the
house with any condemnation of the acts under which land-
lords compounded their rates. We have had a good deal of
that, and my hon. friend near me has been particularly
strong upon it. lam willing to accept the fact that in 170
boroughs in England and Wales the practice of compound-
ing exist; more or less ; and I agree with the right hon.
member for South Lancashire that it is something in favour
of the system that gradually, under a permissive bill, not
less than 5,000 parishes in England and Wales have adopted
the system ; and I am unwilling rudely, without knowing
enough of it, to condemn it for the purpose of framing an
excuse fora measure which, taken in connexion with that
system, I hold to be one of the most extraordinary, and
one of the most unequal and one of the most unjust that
was ever offered to the English House of Commons by any
Ministry. (Laughter and cheers.) Gentlemen must re-
member that, whether they on that side of the house, or
whether I and those on this side of the house may be right,
this is a very serious question we are discussing ; and con-
sidering the mistakes you made last year you must at
least be a little modest. (Laughter, and hear.) You may
fairly, at any rate, consider the arguments which may ope-
rate against your present views. Now, will the house fol-
low mo just a little on this one point ? The Chancellor of
the Exchequer has stated, in answer to questions from
Scotch members, that in the Scotch bill the franchise will
be so arranged that it will be practically household suf-
frage throughout all the boroughs of Scotland ; the only
question will be that the franchise will not be extended
to the persons under XI rental whose rates aro not paid
by the occupier. In fact., I believe occupiers are not
rated in any way below £4 ; but above LI to every
person who pays his rates the franchise will be given.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that he made no statement in regard to the £1 line.
Mr. BRIGHT.—I did not intend to say that the right
hon. geutleman had made such a statement. I only said
that ho propoSed in Scotland to extend what he called the
principle of the bill, and what followed was merely an
explanatory remark of my own. (Hear, hear.) By and
by a bill will be introduced for Ireland, but no promise
will be given in regard to the mode in which the franchise
will be arranged. Irish members toll me that in that coun-
try, to a point of £1 rating, the rates are paid by the land-
lord—(hoar, hear)—and to above £4 half the rate is paid
by the landlord and half by the tenant ; and I ought to
li-we said further, that in Scotland half the rate is paid by
0/a landlord and half by the tenant. In England there
are 29 boroughs that will be practically about in the same
position, and in which the franchise will be very largely
extended ; so that we have the principle of the bill of the
right hon. gentlemen applying, I presume, to Ireland, but
certainly to Scotland, and certainly to 29 boroughs iu Eng-
land, without the enormous and most unfortunate halite-
tions which the same bill will apply to 170 other boroughs
in England and Wales. 1 do not believe the right hon. gen-
tleman or his Government would have proposed this plan
if th-y had known when it was first thought of that this
result would be attained. lam inclined to agree with the
right hon. gentlethen the member for Caine (Mr. Lowe)
that this is a misfortune attending their bill which the
right hon. gentleman probably wished did not exist to so
great an extent as it was now found to do. But I have main-
tained from the beginning of these discussions that there is
no real difficulty in accommodating this matter, and being
equally just to all the boroughs. It seems t o me something
like a pedantic perseverance, by which the Government or
the right hon. gentlemen, for ho appears to be the Govern-
ment—(laughter) -stands by a proposition which I believe
he would not have made if ho had seen the return which
the Secretary to the Treasury obtained some time ago, and
which he must know as well as any man in this House
know; that it is utterly incapable of defence, and that it
never can subsist for a single Parliament as it now
i.
I am not now pleading for any particular point to which
you extend the suffrage; I am pleading only for equality
and fairness in this matter—(hear, hear)—and I say you
cannot afford—notwithstanding what my hon. friend said,
that Parliament has no right, and cannot exercise the
power without injury to itself and the country—to pass
a bill guilty of such enormous inequality and injustice.
(Oh, oh, and cheers.) If any hon. gentleman says there is
no inequality, let him stand up and show it to be so. I
argue that the remedy is simple and very easy, and that that
remedy to a very large extent will be found in the amend-
ment to this clause which has been proposed by my hon.
friend tho member for Oldham. The words which the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer proposes to introduce are objected to
because they prevent the subsequent adoption of the amend-
ments, and we aro really on these words discussing that
amendment as if it were not really before us. 1 say there
are 29 boroughs in England and Wales which under this
bill you treat with great liberality, and there are 170 which
you treat with a niggardliness, and I say with an injustice
which will be found to be intolerable, and which I believe
it is not statesmanlike or right on the part of the house so
to treat. (Hear, hear.) If you were to adopt the proposi-
tion of the hon. member for Oldham, I will tell the house
what would exactly follow, if you take population for
population iu the 29 boroughs and in the 170 boroughs,
you would find that the number of electors that would
ultimately come upon the roll in the 170 boroughs would
not vary more than three par cent. from the number that
would come on the roll by this bill in the 29 boroughs ;
and if it can be shown that the proposition of the member
forOldham would so balance the whole case with that jus-
tice you are now dealing out to the 29 boroughs, I ask the
house whether it. is not worth while, when you wish to
settle a matter which has disturbed you for many years, to
persuade the government and the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to accept the proposition of the hon. member for
Oldham, and thus make what we all know it would be, and
what we all know the present plan will not be, a just and
final settlement of the question. (Hear, hear.) I have
sometimes given honourable gentlemen opposite a little
advice. (Laughter.) I shall not give them any advice
to-night. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) But
I may make one or two remarks to them which may not
berwithout some force. (Hear, hear.) I think I have shown
that reason demands some change in the proposition of
the Government. (No, no, and hear, hear.) Hon. gen-
tlemen have advanced so far that that terrible spectre of
household suffrage has no terrors for them. Hon. gentle-
men' opposite from Scotland even can regard it as ad-
vancing on them without fear ; and English members on
that side of the house have now learnt that, after all, it is
not a thing greatly to bo dreaded. The change that has
come over you has been more remarkable than I have wit-
nessed before since I have had a seat in this houss.
(Cheers and laughter.) But you will forgive me me if I
wonder at it. (Hear.) Then, having made that changs,
what I want you to do is to carry it out into action, so
that at least you may not have made a sacrifice of this con-
cession for nothing. But if I turn to the bench below me
here,The gentlemen who sit on it, with some others.at this
end of the house, have also, I presume, made some change.
(Hear.) They have advanced, lam told and believe it,
though Lord Russell has for many years held that house-
hold suffrage was a wise foundation for the franchise. See
ing, then, that all those who have been accustomed in past
times to follow his standard are quite willing now to assist
hon. gentlemen opposite in establishing that basis for
borough; if the house is unanimous for household suf-
frage, who should we not act upon that conviction ? My
hon. friend near me (Mr. J. B. Smith) says they ought to
pay less poor rates. If we were discussing poor rates his
observation would be pertinent, but it is the very opposite
in a discussion of this matter. The people of Birmingham
have a right to claim the same just and equal treatment
as will be given to those of Stockport and Sheffield. There
may bemen who are willing to follow Ministers in any pro-
position they may make—(cries of " Question" from the
Ministerial benched) -but I should-be ashamed of myself,
and I hope the hour, if it should ever come, when I defend
a measure like this, so unjust—(oh, oh)—to the great majo-
rity of the tow in England and Wales, may be the blot