The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-08 00:00:00

LONDON, SATURDAY E V EATING,

SUN,

(Mr. J. Locke) condemned political appointments,
with reference to the bench. In the list of bribers in
1852 he found the name of Mr. Thomas White Collard,
and that gentleman had recently been appointed a ma-
gistrate. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE denied that the Lord Chancellor was
actuated by political feelings in making his appointments.
The appointment of magistrates for Canterbury
Were made on the recommendation of the in-
habitants. The Lord Chancellor at that time did not
know that Mr. Pout's name was in the schedule of the
commissioners, but as soon as the Lori Chancellor's at-
tention was directed to Mr. Pout's name by the notice
on the paper' he referred to the schedules and
then found Mr. Pout's and Mr. Collard's names
there. Immediately on making the discovery, the noble
and learned lord sent down to Canterbury to say that be
should expect these gentlemen to resign. (Cheers.) No
answer had been returned when he (Ur. Walpole)
entered the house ; but he had every reason to believe
the resignations weuhl be sent in. If tha resignations
be not sent in, the L -rd Chancellor, he bad no doubt,
would take steps to render the administration of
justice pure in that borough. The right hon. gentle-
man defended the conduct of the Lord Chancellor from
making political appointments, and read a list of magis-
trates for a number of beroughe, in which the majority
were Liberals, and his appointments had only had a ten-
dency to bring hack the balance of parties. (Hear.) -
Mr. J. BRIGHT said the list just read only went to
show that the present Lord Chancellor was following
in the footsteps of his predecessor— (cheers, and no,
no) —and was endeavouring to balance accounts.
(Rear, hear, and laughter.) He condemned the present
mode of appointing magistrates. 011 every occasion
when there was a change of Ministry there was a
scrambled to put men on the bench to balance, as it was
called, political parties, and, in consequence, unfit men
f ten got on the bench. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. JOLINSTONE defended the nominations by
the Lord Chancellor of magistrates for the city of Can-
terbury. They had been recommended by the mayor and
by himself, to whom they were personally known. He
had quite forgotten that the two names mentioned had
been named with the commissioners' report.
Mr. ROEBUCK adverted to a case where all the
names recommended by the Conservative party were
adopted by the thea Lord Chancellor, and those recom-
mended by the town council were pesesd over.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN protested against the partial course
pursued by the Government.
Mr. 0. STANLEY complained of the number of ma-
gistrates lately created.
Mr. HARDY contended that it was high time the
unfair preponderance which formerly existed should he
put an end to.
Mr. WHITESIDE said the old Government had
allowed an alderman named Brent to remain on the
beach at Canterbury, though he had been mentioned in
the same report as the two persons referred to. More
than this, he had been made a deputy-lieutenant for the
county.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE contended that the case of
Mr. Brent was a totally different one. Hs bad been
:lade a deputy-lieutenant by the late Lord Cowper in
1852 ' • while the commission on the bribery in Canter-
bury did not sit till 1853.
THE GREAT BELL AND THE STATUE OF
RICHARD CCEUR DE LEON.

Mr. HANKEY asked the Cnief Commissioner of
Works what progress had been mode in the recasting
the bell for the cock tower, and when it was probable
tnat the clock would be completed. Also, what was the
intention of the Government respecting the erection of
the statee of Richard Cceur de Lion, by Baron Maro-
chetti, purchased 1w public subscription, and presented
to the nation in 1856.
Lord V. TEAPEST called the attention of the First
Commissioner of Works to the erection of a statue to
Dr. Jenner in Trafalgar-square, which he (the noble
ter '•) considered was not an eligible site fer such a statue.
He asked the noble lord if the site was selected by him
or the right hon. baronet his predecessor in office.
Lord ELCHO raid it was desirable that be should
know if to r Majesty's Gove-rnment bad laid down any
fixed principles fir the erection of statues in the metro-
polis. Dr. Jenner's statue was in a line with that of
S.r C. Napier, and he wished to know if they were to
have a line along Trafalgare.quere, and whether it was
to le two deep like the Eeg!ise formation,or three deep,
l,ke that of the French formation ? (Laughter.)
Lord J. MANNERS said he had been informed that
the great bell was cast, and would, in all probability, be
ready for the Clock Tower in a few days. A vote was
to he taken this session for the co upletion of the palace
of Wes,rninster, and he had no doubt the Olock Tower
would s )on be completed, and the bell fixed in its pro-
per position, He had every "reason for believing that
the new hell possessed a remarkably fine tone. (Hear.)
With regard to the statue of Richard Coeur de Lion, he
bael been inf ironed that the committee of fine arts and
Sir C. Eastlake were unable to agree on a euiteble site in
1856, and nothing further had been done in the matter.
He thought with the diversity of opinion that appeared
to exist between bon. members in matters of art, that
there would be one difficulty in deciding on the suit-
able spot where to place the statue, agreeable to al par-
ties. (Hear, hear.) Tue site for Dr. Jenner's statue was
graired by the late Government, and when he was in-
torued of it, and application male for instruction to be
given for its erection, he though,. it his duty tocarry out
.he arraegeinent that had been entered into. (Hear.)
The Government had no general control over the erec-
i.ru of statues in the metropolis, bt.t they bad over the
erection in Trafalgar-square. The erection of Dr. Jen-
net's statue was, he believed, a part of thi general
sehe.me to place three or four eta ues in a line along Tra-
felgar square. There was to be a statue on the other side
cirr,..sponding to that of Jenner's, and one of General
Havelock was to be placed on the other side, corres-
ponding to Clat of S.r C. Napier. (dear.)
Sir W. FRASER said as the lets bell was popularly
known as " Big Ban," he wished t know if it was the
intention of the noble lorl (Lerd J. Manners) to centinue
that name to the new bell, or give it a new one ? If the
latter, he (Sir W. Fraser) suggested it should be called
" Little John."
The subket then dropped.
EXPENSES OF VOTERS.
Mr. Sergeant DEASY called the attention of the house
to the present state of the law relating to the payment of
the travelling expenses of voters at parliamentary elec-
tions. He took the occasion to express his regret that his
remarks in reference to this subject on a former occasion
had been miseo,strued. by Lord Wensleydale. He regret-
ted exceedin;ly that such an erroneous impression as ep-
rio hadeer ed to exist should have beereraised by the observation
The matter then dropped.
THE CAGLIARI.

Mr. KINGLAKE asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer when her Majesty's Government would cause to be
presented to the house a copy of the despatch referred to
by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs on Tuesday
last, as having been received by her Majesty's Governmeot,
stating that the Government of Sardinia cordially accepted
the despatch of Lor 1 Malmesbury and were prepared to
act in accordance with the suggestion of that despatch,
and the spirit of the protocol of the 14th April; and also
for a copy of the above despatch of Lord Malmesbury ? He
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reconsi ler his
decision of last night to produ e those papers. On the 14th
January he brought forward a motion in reference to this
subject, which resulted in the discharge of the two Eng-
lish engineers. In the course of the Easter recess certain
documeats in reference to the subject were laid upon the
table of the house, an I amongst them was an extratuli-
n try despatch of Lo .d Malmosbury, in which he took the
singular and unusual course of narrating to the Sardinian
Government the particulars of a mistake that had been
made at the Chancellery of the Minister of Turin, which
lied produced so much astonishment, for no one could
have believed that a foreign Minister would barn taken
the pains to have reviewed a despatch signed by a Minister
of this country, accredited to a foreien court, unless there
was a strong detsrmination on the part of the Government
to recede from the line of policy in Heated by the mistaken
despatch. (Hear, hear.) Accordingly there had been a very
general belief in the public mint that it was the intention
of her Majesty's Government to abandon Sardinia to her
fate, and he was bound to say that the statement of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer last night had tended strongly
in his wind to confirm the imeression, and to lead him to
believe that he was entitled to deprecate such a policy.
( Hear, hear.) One circemstance, he thought, was patent lo
ell--viz., that all the dementia made by Sardinia to the
Ne apolitan Government were made by her, upon the insti-
gation of the British Government, through Lord Clarendon,
when be held the seals of the Foreign-office. (Hear, bear.)
He (Mr. Kinglake) considered this country was, in conse-
quence, bound in good faith to afford Serdinia genuine and
hearty support, an I finding that opinion was participated
in by a large number of hon. members, he put his present
motion upon the paper. After alluding to the obstacles
that had prevented his bringing it forward on an earlier
day, he said the other night the house were led to be-
lieve that Sardinia had attained her object, and, conse-
qusatly, that this motion was unnecessary; but on the
next day they were assailed with rumours that the state-
ment referred to the right hon. gentleman the Under Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs was ,omewlit overdrawn, to the
extent that Sardinia was satisfied with the proposals made
to her, and last night that was followed up by the refusal
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to present certain
papers, on the ground that negotiations were pending, end
that their production would be dangerous to the carrying
ou of the negotia' ions then going on, notwithstanding that
two days before the house was led to believe that all mat-
te- s of difficulty had been arranged. (Hear.) In consequence
of that statement the debate impending was intercepted,
arid as other papers in connection with the transaction had
been laid upon the table of the house, he considered it was
the duty of her Majesty's Government to complete them,
Itv consenting to the production of copies of the despatches
he risked for. He was at least entitled to know which of
the two answers to which he had referred wore correct. If
the negotiations had ended in the satisfactory manner
stated on a former occasion by the hon. gentleman the
Under Secretary of state for Foreign Affairs, then he
should be happy to withdraw his motion ; but if other-
wise, as he was led to believe by the refusal of the Chan-
csllor of the Exchequer, he considered himself bound to
press his motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER congratu-
late I the hon. gentleman and the house that he had at bast
ma le his sleech on Sardinia. (Laughter.) And when the
w
.ahhi
eev renl
Sardinianai
correct o
hon.he gentleman asked whose version was to be accepted--
ing
fcvir
nia ere
,nss
oli
ont
til the
tiThheen
bd e7gr positionS.e de ctrooe tfsaary affairstho trhhe isomp
eds
cei
tld-f
had
not observe any inconsistency between the two sta,teneen'
and
was prepared to maintain that theywere exactly
in accordance with each other. (Rear.) The.
the house was a simple but a very serious qone.ueticiriiii
friend the Under Secretary was perfectly justified in the
s!a'eineet made by him the other night. What was that
statement ? That Sardinia had accepted the proposition
made by his noble friend at the head of the Foreign De-
pertinent, in the despatch to Count C.:.vc or. v' c., 91,f, this
vexed question should be referred to arbitration, under the
wise an i beneficent protocol of the conference at Paris.
That was the statement made by his hon. friend, who
world thought it be received with satisfaction. But the
horse should remember this, that having agreed with Sar-
st nia ai to the course to be taken, it was not to be supposed
that all the difficulties were solved, although there was f r-
tunately a complete understanding between Sardinia and
this country as to the course to be pursued. Let the house
•
reffsct for one moment on the importance of the questions
remaining for consideration, The question of indemnity

and the question of mediation were both involved in the
negotiations which were about to commence, and no two
subjects of diplomacy were mere delicate or difficult. If
the house had no confidence in the management of this
matter by the Ministers, let it sty so distinctly, and the
Government would then understand the position in which
they were placed. (Hear.) But he asserted that the papers
alluded to could not be given without serious detriment to
the public service; and he, for one, would not incur the re-
' sponsibiiity arising from their production. (Hear.) He
would ask the house whether whaa had already taken place
with respect to the misunderstandarg between Sardinia and
Naples, and the relations of this country with the affair,
had been such as to disentitle the Government to the con-
fidence of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) On their accession to
office they found the matter in a complicated and difficult
position. He believed they had treated those affairs with
prudence, and not without success. Whatever they had
attempted toaccomplish they had succeeded in doing. They
were prepared to the utmost of their ability, and with every
necessary devotion of time and thought to the business, to
bring it to a complete and satisfactory conclusion. But
their labours would be seriously interfered with if the
House of Commons should refuse to extend to them that
confidence to which they were entitled, and he must again
decline to produce the papers which had been asked far by
the hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if in the opinion of the
right hon. gentleman these papers could not be produced
without detriment to the public service, it would be impos-
sible for his hen. and learned friend to press his motion.
(Hear.) He did not think the hens, had any reason to be
dissatisfied with the course which Government had hitherto
taken on the subject. (Hear, hear.) In dealing with this
affair two great objects ought to be kept in view ; one of
them was not to desert Sardinia, but to endeavour to ob-
tain for her that redress to which she was in equity and in
jt rs
was to
oe
mightsettle
scarcely of less consequence,
without bringing about hostilities
v
themselves
all over Italy. (Hear.) It
wi
tcs entitled;el e
the matter
extend
ma thet t
er other,
appeared to him that the course which the Government had
pursued was a judicious one, and he trusted their efforts
would be successful. (Heger.) There was another point to
which he wished to direct the attentionof the Government.
The engineers had been liberated from the hardships and
cruelties to which they had been subjected; but while the
contemplated mediation and areitratiou weregoing on what
was to become of the crew of the Cagliari, who were sub-
jected to the same kind of treatment which the engineers
had formerly received ? (Hear.) He did not think it con-
sistent with justice to allow these men to be detained in
prison during the negotiations, which might extend over a
very long period. He bad heard that an intention existed to
libertve the crew, and should be glad if the Government
could give any satisfactory information on the subject.
(Hear, hear.) Before sitting down he wished to este the
right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary when the com-
mission with regard to the question would be appointed ?
Mr. WALPOLE replied that it would be appointed very
speedily.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said he was afraid he could not
give the noble lord any satisfactory ; i.Je, sea ie. en the su'a-
ject to which he had referred. The efforts of this country to
assist Sardinia were not limited to the mere question of the
ship, but extended also to the crew. Beyond that assurance
he was unable to give the noble lord any information. The
hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Kinglake) seemed entirely
to have misunderstood the object with which he addressed
a few words to the house on Tues lay night, It was not
his intention to make any announcement of the complete
contents of the despatch, or to create the impression that
ho was doing so. The hon. member had a notice on the
paper with reference to the Cagliari. That question re-
quired to be treated with the greatest delicacy, and was
one of the gravest that could arise, for it affected not only
this country but the general peace of Europe. He was,
therefore, anxious to make a statement which he believed
would be so far satisfactory as to induce the hon. gentle.
man not to press his motion on the attention of the house ;
and accordingly stated that the proposition of his noble
friend (Lord Malmesbary) had satisfied the Sardinian
Government. The hon. gentleman had alluded to rumours
which had repelled him on the following morning which
tended to show the statemsnt to belincorrect. From whence
Pie hon. gentleman obtained that information it was diffi-
cult to say. Such rumours certainly did not come from
an English source, and he regretted that statements should
be made by persons who were not in a situation as British
subjects in the house or elsewhere to establish their allega-
tions. (Hear.) With respect to the conclusion which
the hon. gentleman had drawn from the despatch, he could
only say that nothing was further from the intentions of
the Government, and that neither now nor at any past
time, nor, he hoped, at any future time, would they take
any stop whatever to justify the impression that they
would willingly abandon an ally in the hour of danger.
Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced that the conversation which
had taken place had cleared up the misunderstanding
which had previously existed, for he had certainly laboured
tinder the same impression as the hon. and learned gentle-
man (Hr. Kinglake) with respect to the rem arks of the
hon. Under Secretary. He was glad to hear that the Go-
vernment had taken into their con,ideration the case of the
unfortunate crew of the Cagliari, and that their co-opera-
tion extended to the men as well as to the ship. In relation
to that part of the negotiation, he trusted they would
not fail to bear in mind the imp rtance of the element of
time, because by delay and protraction any com'nunica-
tions relating to the crew were a voluntary ruling of the
lEclotori edge, ttaihnoeni
.maegLaa ibneeas the efforts
rrt
hretahre.)ci and
city of
quite views o
agreed
of
withSd ar
theiui e
nobleand
of London in his remarks with
, reference to the course which the government had pier
sued. But he thought the despatch of Lord Maluaesbury
did not do full justice to the views of her Majesty's Go
vernment. On reading the despatch of Lord Malrnesbury
explaining the error of Mr. Ecekine, which ha .l led to con-
, siderable inaccuracy in the farm of instruction, he was led
to infer that Lord Melmesbury did not intend to actin the
spirit of the letter of Sir J. Hudson. The error was a grio-
vousand unhappy one, but he trusted that the merits and
exemplary conduct of a faithful public servant would not
be forgotten. (11.• a-.) The result of an examination of the
document had led him (Ur. Gladstone) to this conclusion,
that the obligation of England to §ardiuia did not depend
upon an erroneously expressed note, but on the letter of
Lord Clarendon, dated toe 9th of I)ac. ant the letter of
Sir J. Hudson, dated the sth of Jan. The obligation arose
out of the note of Lord Clarendon, and not out of any error
on the part of Mr. Erskine, or any oversight on the pert of
hcittwitSothohivamriatsrisiginJreumatoc..
ievrtafitlHeotlhwurpoef:uarorrattltisihni
oacsil:na thisi.
shoultld
ja,,s)s
u. vv,hl ae
be
groundwork
n broughtl jll st ee
beforeot of
t thehe
the government vvo eoc rer nle enaugn:
oai
ttt
nayn
way
atyh
be
er therefore,
di in
pmoankai
sn making
atkhiinsg statement,ext exception
the noise
uLta
ht
tAeaHr Es
createdt (xowoch,hioe qtowubeays
a ru indistinctlylh
of
members h heard i
fromi n conse-
quence
th the
house) y t
hthat
whenhe
th agreede
presentith the
found this question in a
go-
vernment came into office th'ey
difficult position. (Hear, hear.) He congratulated them
an the success they bad heretofore obtained in behalf of
our two countrymen. But he could not understand why
the government should not have gone further. All we
knew was that her Majesty's government had offered what
they called their good offices to the Sardinian govern-
ment, and that the question was t be referred to a foreign
power. Tire documents before them showed that these
negotiations had been con !acted in the most unsatisfactory
manner possible.
Mr. CIIAWFORD observed that they had Lord Malm2s-
bury's despatch, entering into the details of the error com-
mitted by Mr. Erskine at Turin, aunt they had the digni-
fied and proper remonstrance of the Sar tinier, Minister,
but they were not informed whether any reply had been
made to the Sardinian Minister. He thought the house
ought to know whether her Majesty's Government dis-
sented from the observations of the Sardinian Minister or
not. Then they bad all read the debate in the Sardinian
Chamber on the Daforesta Bill, in which England was
charged with deserting Sardinia, on which the house ought
to have some explanations from her Majesty's Government.
Ho hoped that her Majesty's Government would cordially
co-operate with the Sardinian Geverament in this matter.