The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-19 00:00:00

Cone which speak to the fact of the proclamation having
been issued, but we have no official communication from
Lord Canning to that effect. (Hear, hear.).
Sir J. PAKINGTON—Jt is in my power to give an
answer to the hon. baronet. I have within the last
few hours seen a gallant officer who arrived from Luck.
now last night, and who before leaving Lucknow had a
conversation with Sir Colin Campbell. In that conver-
sation Sir, Colin Campbell stated to him his opinion of
the proclamation which had arrived. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. WOOD asked whether it was to be under: tood
that the proclamation had arrived, or had been issued at
Luoknow.
Sir J. PAKINGTON was understood to say that
the explanation be had received was that the proclama-
tion had been sent to Lucknow. (Hear, hear.)
Lord A. V. TEMPEST asked the right hon. gentle-
man the late President of the Board of Control whether
he had any objection to produce those parts of the
private letter he had received from Lord Canning which
referred to the subject of the proclamation.
Mr. V. SMITH—I have already stated the substance
of the letter, and also that had I, to the best of my judg•
went and discretion, considered it important enough to
be communicated to the Government, I would have done
so. I did not think any part of the letter important,
and therefore did not send it. (Hear, and oh, oh.)
Lord A. V. TEMPEST said the right hon. gentleman
Lad not answered his question. (Order, order.)
The SPEAKER said the noble lord might put a ques-
ti,n, but was not at liberty to enter into any comment..
Lord A. V. TEMPEST would repeat his question.
Had the right hon. gentleman any objection to lay be-
fore the house those parts of the letter be had received
from Lord Canning which related to the subject of the
proclamation
Mr. V. SMITH—I have already stated the substance
of the letter, and that is the only answer I have to make.
(Ironical cheers.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE rose, amid loud cries of
" order," to make a statement. In order to put himself
in order he said he would move the adjournment of the
house. He understood there wag a gallant officer who
had held a high command in Oude now in town, who
had stated publicly on various occasions that he had bad
communications with officers high in command and with
the Governor-General since the publication of the pro-
clamation. He had also stated what were the impres-
sions on Lord Canning's mind, and the mind of others,
with regard to that subject, and he (Sir J. Elphinstone)
thought it would be desirable to have, if possible, the
substance of that officer's evidence given to the house.
(Oh i and No, r. 0.)
Mr. Y. SMITH thought this a most irregular pro-
ceeding. Why did the hon. gentleman, if he had the
evidence of this gallant officer, not communicate it to
the house himself I . .

The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn.
Mr. DILLWYN asked whether, in the event of the
amendment he had given notice of to the motion of the
right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford being car-
ried, and in effect becoming a substantive motion, it
would receive the support of her Majesty's Govern•
ment. (Oh, oh.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—
I wish to explain to the house the state of business. I
understand we cannot hope to make any arrangement
by which the debate on the Oude question can be re-
sumed to night at any reasonable hour. Ido not think
it would be just to the Government that this discussion
should be recommenced atjithe fag end of a debate.
(Hear.) I understand that the hon. and gallant admiral
(Sir C. Napier) acting, no doubt, from a sense of duty,
declines to give way, and one cannot expect those
gentlemen who precede him on the paper to make a
sacrifice of their position. I think, therefore, that there
is no probability of the adjourned debate occurring to-
night at any reasonable hour, and I confess I am some-
what reconciled to the delay, because there is no pos-
sibility of the house dividing to-night. But I must beg
that, on every practice of courtesy and every principle of
justice, hon. members who have motions on the paper
for Thursday will consent to an arrangement by which
the discussion on the resolutions of the right hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Cardwell) will be resumed at the earliest pos•
sible moment on that day. Thursday is a day in
the occupation of private members, and the hon mem-
ber for Surrey has a motion of the greatest importance
for that day. It is with the greatest reluctance that I
make an appeal to that hon. gentleman to sacrifice the
occasion of bringing forward a matter of so much in-
terest, but my appeal to that hon. member is not made
under light circumstances. (Hear, hear.) I hope,
thertfore, that the hon. member for Surrey, taking all
the circumstances into his consideration —remembering
that a bill of indictment, as it were, has been preferred
against her Majesty's Government--that they are on
their trial, and that we arc, further, on the eve of a re-
cess, will see the necessity that the decision of the bon e
on this subject shall not be unnecessarily postponed.
(Hear.) I cannot but believe that the hon. gentleman,
animated by the sentiments of a generous mind, will
allow the adjourned debate to be resumed on Thursday.
(Hear.) if the hon. gentleman gives his consent Isbell
feel it to be my duty to give him facilities for bringing
on his measure on the earliest practicable occasion.
(Cheers.) If the hon. gentleman consents that the ad-
journed debate shall be resumed on Thursday its termi-
nation must be near at hand, and cannot fail to take
place either on that or the succeeding night. With
regard to the question of the hon. member for Swansea
(Mr. Dillwyn), if the motion of the right hon. gentleman
the member for Oxford is negatived, as I hope it will be
—(a laugh)—l see nothing in the amendment of the
hon. gentleman to which I could not give a willi❑g
consent.

Mr. L. KING, after the appeal made to him, would
postpone hie motio❑ on Thursday. (Hear, hear.)

ADJOURNMENT OVER THE DERBY DAY.

had not been able in the course of the debate to turn to
the recorded debates of the house, but trusting to
memory, subject to correction, he could not speak in
eonfirmation of the right hon. and learned gentleman's
recollection.
Mr. BRlGHT—said the time would come when the
house would have to enter on this question, and others
in connection with it. In reference to legacy duty the
honourable gentleman said he knew a gentleman who
was left an estate in land of about 7001. a-year by a lady
who was no relation to him. That estate at 30 years
purchase was worth 21,0001., and there was about
11,0001. worth of timber on it, making together about
32,000/. Had such an amount of personal property -
been left to him he would have had to pay about 3,2001.
legacy duty, and before the passing of the Succession
Act he would have had nothing to pay on it. Under
the Succession Duties Act, he consulted the officers of
the Government, and asked them what he had to pay.
He was asked his age, and on this the officers turned
to a table of calculations ; his interest was considered
to be worth 7,0001., and he had only to pay 7001. He
(Mr. Bright) would not insult the house by remarking
on the inequality of such taxation. He hoped if the
Chancellor of the Exchequer filled that office next year,
that instead of bringing in a nicely-balanced budget he
would introduce one to the notice of the house that
would deal with such questions. It would receive the
support of the house, and also the support of a large
amount of the people out of doors.
Sir H. WILLOUGHI3Y drew attention to the pecu-
burdens borne by the land, such as poor's rates, county
rates, ?cc., that did not affect personal property.
After some remarks from Sir J. WALSH,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was not disposed then to enter into a full discussion of
the question, neither did he think the house expected
him then to edter into the complicated question. (Hear.)
The great difference that existed between landed and
personal property rendered the application of the pro-
bate duty to land almost impossible. The probate was
a stamp o❑ a document which enabled executors to deal
with personal property, but with regard to the different
character of landed property no stamp was required for
dealing with it, because an heir often succeeded without
any deed, and what was easy with regard to personal pro-
perty was very difficult and almost impossible with regard
to landed property. Personal property was easier of disposal
. for raising the probate duty than was land, and to dis-
pose of a portion of it under such circumstances would
greatly datriorate it in value. Nothing was so difficult
ae to adjust taxation, and the only way in which he
thought au equivalent could be obtained would be by
the renewal of the probate duty altogether, and raising
the legacy and succession duty, but then the practical
effect of that would be to raise those two duties from 10
per cent, to 66 per cent.—a proposition that he thought
would be received with opposition in that house. (Hear.)
The only alternative, then, would be to abolish all gra-
dations of consanguinity and have one uniform rate of 4
or 5 per cant., which would be a proposition equally as
unpopular as the other. It was impossible to deal with
this question without considering all the circumstances
with which it was surrounded, such as local taxation,
poor rate=, Sue, and he thought the hon. member for Bir-
mingham would find his proposition not so simply de-
monstrable. With regard to applying the succession
duty to corporations, he thought great difficulties existed
in carrying it into effect. This calculation was that
there were three successions in a century, and, as cor-
porations never died, the calculation was that they would
pay 301. a century, or 64. Bd. a year ; but the great
question would arise as to the exemptions, and he feared
if they attempted to put the law into execution with re-
gard to corporations, that the estimated 4,500/. revenue
would be more than swallowed up in law expenses to
enforce the payment.
Sir G. C. LEWIS concurred in nearly all that had
fallen from tLe right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. The fault, if any, in not enforcing the
succession duty of the corporation rested with him rather
than the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he had
abstained from enforcing it from the same conclusions
at which the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had come to. The real difficulty in apply-
ing the probate duty to land, was that in order to make
the duty productive, they must first rh-model the law of
wills as it affected real property.
Mr. HENLEY said the real question involved in this
subject had not been touched on by previous speakers.
In considering it it was necessary they should look to
local taxation, the land tax, and also the subject of
stamps on deeds. If a person sold an estate of 30,0001.,
he had to pay a very handsome sum in the shape of a
stamp on the conveyance transferring the land, whereas,
if the sum was in the funds, the fortunate party would
have nothing to pay. That was as clear an anomaly on
the one side as the other, and he believed that when the
subject was looked into that question must also be
examined. He could not let stamps remain on real pro-
perty and not put them on personal property. He,
however, was inclined to believe that the matter, as it
at present stood, was pretty nicely balanced.
Mr- LOCKE KING was glad to find the subject had
been brought under the consideration of the house, and
he should vote for the motion. Tuere was a great amount
of personal property, such as rail way shares, that had to
pay the stamp duty. Ile should shortly bring the subject
under the consideration of Parliament.

the seamen would not stand it—they had got a better
notion of their rights than they formerly had, and they
would resist any attempt to impress a man on board
ship. Formerly the horrors of the system wore very
great. If a wife wanted to get quit of her husband, a
Lather of his son, or a son of his father, they had only to
bribe the pressgang, and the poor victim was forced
into the service. Even the Speaker of the House of
Commons, if he had once got into the hands of the press-
gang, would have found it impossible to get off. (A.
laugh.) They would have paid no attention to his re-
monstrances, or would not have believed him. He knew
something of the subject, for long ago he had been en-
gaged in these transactions himself. (Hear.) Unless
Parliament were prepared to resort to some regular
mode of manning the navy it must again have re-
course to the system of impressment—a system under
which the sailor was subjected to a degree of slavery
which, he contended, ought not to prevail in the case of
any class cf men in a free country like England. But
the real question for the consideration of the house was
what were the best means for manning our navy which
could be adopted ? In order to attain that object, he
thought it expedient that the greatest encouragement
should be held out to those who entered the service. He
would, for instanee, have the pay of the petty officers on
board ship increased, and would alloiv them to rise to
the rank of mate, affording them every facility possible
for obtaining a good e lucation. He felt assured that if
that course were pursued, and the seaman was afforded
the inducement of having within his reach the attain-
ment of rank in the service, the best possible results
would be found to accrue. He did not, however, think
that means which he had just mentioned would be in
themselves quite sufficient to effect the object which he
had in view. An additional encouragement might be
found in the re-establishment upon a better footing of
the merchant seamen's fund, with the management of
which the sailors had become so disgusted that they had
almos! altogether givenur being subscribers. He believed
that fund now received from the Treasury a sum of only
65,0001. per annum, lout if the amount were considerably
increased sailors would be induced to become regular
contributors to the fund, and the means would thus be
furnished of providing pensions for their widows and
orphan!. That much good would thereby be effected be
had no doubt, and his own views as to the expediency of
taking some such step were borne out by the opinion of
a gentleman who was conversant with the subject, and
with whom he had been in communication with respect
to it very recently. A commission had been appointed
in 1853 which had recommended that a bounty should
be given to sailors, but upon that, as well as upon seve-
ral other recommendations of the commission, Parlia-
ment had not thought proper to act. He might further
observe that the authorities by breaking faith with our
seamen had caused a loss of confidence upon their nart
which was calculated to operate most prejudicially. Not
very long ago, for instance, a gratuity used to be given
to sailors for good conduct to the amounts of 61, 71., and
101., but the Admiralty in its wisdom had not hesitated
to take away that trifling boon even from those sailors
who bed entered into the service in the expectation that
they would be entitled to the privilege. (Hear.) He
might also mention that the system prevailed of grant-
ing to the men stripes on their arms as marks of distinc-
tion, each stripe being accompanied with additional pay.
This privilege, however, they withdrew, so that when
the men became petty officers they did not receive more
than before. He believed that lately the Admiralty had
reinstated matters, and had allo wed the petty officers to
gain the stripes, so that this ground of complaint had
been taken away. In 1857 we had as fine a navy--at
least, what remained of it—as could possibly be, yet
numbers of the men who composed our crews entered in
1858 as raw recruits. He was informed that the mer-
chant service only furnished 400 seamen to our Baltic
fleet iu 1854 and 300 in 1855. When the House of Com-
mons was asked to reduce the navy in 1857, and eight
sail of the line were paid off, the continuous service men
who had enlisted for 10 years were not told that they
were turned out, but that they might go if they liked.
The men availed themselves of the privilege very largely.
In 1857 there were 17,432 continuous service men in the
fleet, of whom 2,973 were discharged. However, he did
not approve the 10 years' continuous service system. He
believed that Sir James Graham's plan was wiser—to
enter the sailors fur five years, but he would only take
practically three years' service out of them. If the ships
were kept in commission five years—and their stores
would last that time—the officers might be relieved
every two years or two and a-half years, so that other
officers would have an opportunity cf seeing service.
Otherwise there would be continued the state of things
described by his hon. and gallant friend (Admiral
Walcott), who for 20 years went on his knees to the
Admiralty to allow him to see active service, but in
vain. He would keep the ships constantly moving
about. The soldiers were removed from Gibraltar, to
Malta' the lonian Islands, the West Indies, &c., and he
would do the same with the sailors. He would let them
come home occasionally to see their wives and friends
and have a run on shore. When he first knew the navy
the sailors scarcely knew where the shore was. They
never saw the face of the fair sex, and this was a hor-
rible state of things. (A laugh.) Tao men in the \Vest
India squadron of Sir W. Parker were never ashore for
three years, and utasr fleets were the same. Wnen he
went out in command of a squadron the late Lord Auck-
land a,ked him whether he ought to let the men go
ashore. He said he would let them go ashore, whether
they got drunk or not, for the evil would right itself.
(dear.) When they got to Lisbon the scenes were very
had. He recommended the authorities to put all the
drunken sailors they could find into the guardhouse, and
keep them there for two or three days. The Govern-
ment temp wined, but he resisted. The Queen sent a
meisage to him not to let the sailors come ashore. Still
be persisted, and the result was that in a short time the
men wh ;were allowed to go on shore behaved as well
as the officers. (Hear, bear.) Under the ten years' con-
tinuous service system the tie between the Royal Navy
and the merchant service would be almost severed, be-
cause the vacancies would he so few that they would be
filled up by the begs. But if the men were taken for five
years they woull then probably take their turn in the
merchant service, and tell the men there that the Royal
Navy was not so bad a profession. This would be better
for the navy than ten years' continuous service, which
the men did act like, The late First Lord of the Admi-
ralty said it was true that the men were discharged with
their own cement in 1857, but that they bad passed over
the quarter-deck and entered themselves again for five
years' service. He had ascertained how the case stood,
and he fount that only 63 men had crossed the quarter.
deck and entered again. In 1857 the Admiralty paid off
eight ships of war,ian the ground of economy. It was sup-
posed that a keying of 100,0001. or 150,000/. would be
thereby effected. But those ships could not be put in the
same state wider 200,0001. A ship newly fitted out would
last five year e, but if it were put out of commission at
the end of one or t mu years, there were sure to be cm-
plaints of ikefficiency, and the ship was usually newly
caulked, cippered, masted, and rigged at a great ex.
pence for eery trifling defects. The Act of 1835 was
amended by the Act of 1853. The double bounty was
repealed, End the register was abandoned. He disap-
proved bo;b those alterations, and thought the Act of
1835 woud have been much better amended if the Actof
1853 had merely provided that extra pay should not be
given to warren unless in time of war, and that the men
should becalled out is classes. He did not say that they
should begin the register over again, but some means
ought to be found for enforcing the calling out men by
proelamitioa. (Hear.) The manning of the fleet was as
simple a thing as could possibly be. Supposing the Chan-
nel fleetwas to be composed of ten sail of the line, three
of them should be flagships. He would discharge from
the ship iu time of peace one-half the mariner. Those
marineeshould garrison the whole of the seaport towns,:
In the (vent of war they wouldgo on board again, and
the militia would walk into their places. In a case of
emergeicy they might discharge one watch to another
ship. The cotes -guard men must remain to take care of
the revenue ; but if they called out the Coast Velun-
teera they might, by his plan, muster men enough for
50 sail of the lice within a fortnight, and that force
would be completed in a very short time. He did not
say that Louis Napoleon was going to invade this coun-
try. '3rod forbid ! He hoped he would not, but Louis
Napoton might not be his own master. (Hear.) Tee
Frenes army had lately been increased by 40,000, and
now numbered 500,000 men. According to the repre-
sentaions of the late First Lord of the Admiralty, while
we hid 42 screw ships, France had 40. France had 70,000
trained seamen for fitting out a fleet. A quarrel might
arise. They very nearly had ono the other day and he was
not cuite sure it was overyet. People armed to the teeth
at all poinme could pick a quarrel whenever they pleased.
(Hear.) lie soul I ask the house what position England
world be in if t icy h and teanorrow there were
1540,;'060fotrf tiehipeelisun
be :he etre a en the funds? People would bo running
tin therea nedbya toCeiirear,bl Cherbourg
s. and‘y
ti4aot, Owooouol
would
elect right and lel, but there would be no means c f
defeece. He spoke plainly, because it was quite imma-
twist whether be dil so or not. The French knew
ey
what
vet had in cur ports, just as wed as we knew what they
had in theirs. We .mere in a defenceless state. We
would not pay an insurance for our lives and property.
He believed that if the Prime Minister stood up in his
Disco and said he would not be responsible fur the safety
the
of the kingdom melees there were ten sail of tbelinteo,
Mole c uatry weuld cheer hien from one
end the
dd()tti emr. e in(dear.)
f Parliament, i acceo uennttr,
y did
not d
nor merchants
of London. (Bear) Trio time was come when they ought
tot to defer for a day linger the putting the navy in
proper state. Tile re must both
,f a fleet independent otha
of the coast-guard and of the volunteers, who formed
Ucnhaentt'Ssta ofn d
thei it, nor
city
only a reserve for cases of emergency. If the
French were to make a descent upon our coast
what should e e do ? Tae Commander-in-Chief could
i
nit tike the field with more than 30,000 men, whoa
France had an army e f 500,000 men, a
rd we hal no fleet
to send to meet hers at sea. In order properly to sup-
port the interests and honour of the countryour
ought to be put to sea certain cf victory.
of the of June the Feeech fleet was not manned or
in
the
battle
ships
officered as it ought to have been, owing to the Revolu-
tion ; but, in spite of all this, never was an action Letter
tonight, and the enemy never hauled down their flags
until nearly half their ships' crews were hors sic com-
bat. No.v, the French sailers were as well dis i-
etiried as ours--indeed, better; both men aid officers
wsre c.oe tea t,y employed, au 1 the men, afte e
p'oyment fsr five., years an i :5 were liable to serve
if co led upon. Sure'y lie had trti:t n mgh. to
eaten
6- haweto that it
dboewlenovetscd) us
rave at my diaeoed a proper fleet." He (Sir C. Ne-
ttle:is aihi
on: ,:tee a
nwdh eseavye,r
,h, mul t
cero many ways in which a great •
ner) di•?• no: h ex ravag intrenpiei,st expenditure. There
)
a stop to tee nonsense
r;eo:loaovoel.d;ilig 0 eExavan,;(iplbe;
ihriat,..ibnel,lieved that 20,0001. or
.shish now went on through having an Admiralty at
Wnit~hall, as, d another at Somerset-house. He wanted
cornmiseion to inquire into all those things—not only
,he question of inannirg, but one which would investi-
gate everything in the dockyards, to see how it was that

Captain VIVIAN moved that the house at its rising
adjourn to Thursday. He had no doubt that hou.
members were anxious to have an opportunity of at•
tending to-morrow those amusements which were of
sack importance that they were almost a part of our
constitution. (A. laugh.) He trusted that the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
so often levelled the shafts of his eloquence in that house
would offer no objection to the motion, and that he
would find to-morrow another Toxopholite in another
place. (A. laugh.)
The motion was then agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. BOUVERIE it was ordered,
amid a slight murmur from members of committee, that
committees have leave to sit to-morrow, notwithstand-
ing the adjournment of the house.

Sir J. GRAHAM felt hicuselt bound to oppose the
motion. Ile disagreed with the first part, but agreed
with the latter port, in reference to the succession duties
being enforced again-t corporations. Toe e timate of
Lord Aberdeen's Government was that it would produce
15,0001. and be thought there must be some error with
respect to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's calculation
of 4,500/.
The house then diviied :
For the motion
Against it 172
Majority against the motion ---104

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 19, 1858.

at Hasler 40 or 50 gunboats were so drawn up that they
could not be launched for two months, and inquire also
whether the Admiralty was properly carried on. The
commission should not be composed of Lords of the Ad-
miralty or of any who had served in that capacity, but
of men experienced in the service who were not warped
by red-tape. Such a commission, he believed, would
pay well for the service done ; and he therefore begged
to move,—"Teat an humble address be presented to
her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased
appoint a commission to inquire into the best means of
manning the navy and improving its management, with
a view to reduce its expenditure without impairing its
efficiency."
Mr. LINDSAY • said he believed the difficulty at
present experienced in manning our navy formed one of
the most important subjects to which the attention of
the house could be directed. He confessed it appeared
to him that a committee of the house would form a
better tribunal than a commission for inquiring into the
question. There was a difficulty experienced in the
manning of our ships of war which was not telt in the
manning of our merchant ships. Now that was a ques-
tion which ought to be inquired into by a committee,
which could consider many more important quest ons
relatirg to the subject than a commission could do.
He thought that the inquiry ought to extend to every-
thing connected with the dockyards, which, in his
*pinion, could be placed upon a ranch better footing
than they were at present, and at a less expense (hear).
Admiral BUNCOMBE, who had given notice of an
amendment for the appointment of a select committee in-
stead of a commission, said he thought that a committee
of that house would be better able to elicit information
on the important subject of manning the navy than a
commission. At the present moment there were four
ships, the finest of their class, the Marlborough,
Euryolus, Renown, and Racoon, which were unable to
proceed to their stations for want of men, though the
first two had been in commission three months, and the
last two six months. The time was come when this
subject of manning the navy must be thoroughly inquired
into, and means provided for remedying the deficiencies
which undoubtedly existed in our present system. In
1856, at the end of the Russian war, Sir F. Berkeley
said in that house that the war had thoroughly shown
our weakness in this respect—that we had got to the
end of our tether when" peace was made, and that had
the war continued he should have been puzzled to say
how we should have got on for men. The idea was
most humiliating. (Hear.) If the some voted by that
house were efficiently applied, a general system of man-
ning the navy might be established which would place us
in complete security so far as the supply of seamen was
concerned. He was ❑ot aware until ho came down to
the house that the Government intended to grant a com-
mission, but having put his notice on the paper, he
should move it, and leave it in the hands of the house
to deal with as might seem best. The gallant admiral
concluded by moving as an amendment that a select
committee be appointed to inquire into the best means
of manning the navy and of improving its management,
with a view to reduce its expenditure without impairing
its efPoiency.

I Mr. LINDSAY said he should prefer a select com-
mittee, since the question was far too important to be
I eft to a commission. A Royal commission would to a
certain extent be a secret committee of inquiry. The in-
quiry ought to be extended to everything connected
with the dockyards, in which he believed there was a
great deal of waste labour. (Hear, hear.) He believed
that 10 men in the merchant service would do as much
work as 15 in the Royal navy.
Admiral WALCOTT preferred a commission to a
committee, because thoroughly able naval officers, not
only in, but out of that house, could conduct the inquiry
if a commission were appointed. The question of man•
ning and managing the Royal navy was of momentous
it.terest to the country. Ever since he had become a
menab3r of that house he had from time to time attempted
to impress upon the First Lord of the Admiralty the
importance of 12 sail-of-the line, at all times ready to
defend our coasts against invasion. In former days we
had an abundance of daredevil sailors to protect us in
case of emergency, and he hoped for the future more
attention would be given by the Admiralty to our home
defences. The manning of our navy bad been rendered
more difficult by the introduction of steam into the mer-
cantile navy. Steam had dispensed with the services
of many men in that which used to be the great
nucleus of the Royal navy ; and scarcely any appren-
tices were now to be found in it. Moreover, more
foreigners were now employed in the merchant service,
because they could-be obtained at a cheaper rate than
our own seamen. Nevertheless those who had at heart
the defence of our shores need not be much alarmed, for
he believed that there were in our merchant service
180,000 men. The days of impressment had gone by,
and he was glad of it, for impressment was little loss
than slavery. We were not in so melancholy a condi-
tion as the hon. and gallant admiral had represented with
regard to our navy, but almost every other statement of
his was perfectly true. It was true that in war our
seamen were not allowed to go on shore for three, or
five, or seven years ; but to say that they were never
allowed during those periods to see the face of a woutan
was going a little too far. [Sir C. Napier.—l alluded
to the ships in the Tagus.] Women were allowed tog
on board the ships in the Medit,-rranean and the West
Indies every second day to supply the seamen with
clean c'othes.

L)rd C. PAGET thought that a committee of that
house would be able to procure better evidence than a
Royal commission, which would most likely consist of
very distinguished old naval officers, some of them pro-
baely now belonging to or who had belonged to the Ad-
miralty. He had the greatest respect for them, but
there was a kind of odour of sanctity about them (a
laugh) which would prevent them from receiving the
opinions of younger officers. Another important rea-
son why he should prefer a committee of the house to a
royal commission was the delay which would take place
in the appointment of the latter. There were many
gentlemen io that house well qualified to serve uponi-uch
a committee. There was the hon. member for Norfolk,
a perfect Christopher Columbus. (ek laugh ) Then there
was the hon. member for Ashton, and there were many
naval officers of experience in the house. At the
present moment the country had in the Coast Guard
a perfect defence against any invasion. That was a
force of great utility, haying been recruited as it was
by seamen paid off at the close of the war, and
having been under the able superintendence of Com-
modore Eden. (Hear, hear.) There was, however,
no opportunity for members of that force again going
to sea, and it was must important to consider how its
ranks should be reinforced, for, able and efficient
as it was at present, unless proper means were taken to
reading the Bible with their spectacles on. C. Na.like recruitt
heistes
nr
ea
rfin kpsl,a
iint
emdi
eg
fhntyc ot
hmeegtaol
iconsist of a
admiral
fey
of m
yt
always
[Sir
pierhere
made an observation which did not reeele the
gallery.]Well, he meant no offence, it was proper that
sailors should read their Bibles, but what he meant was
that
taken
nd
tt,)ekrheeefop therefore et
tluo.chtti activity whichsome
the members of the force would become elderly men
and would, consequently, not be possessed of that energy
andi
admirable force in i s present efficient state, In his opin-
ion an improved mode of manning the fleet would not
be at all inconsistent with economy. (Hear.) He as a
n a
steps was s
soh
nessential,l
d be
t a
naval officer was perfectly satisfied with the exertions
which had been made by the right hon. gentleman at the
head of the Admiralty, but he found fault with part of
his administration. In 1852-3 there was a committee of
naval officers appointed to inquire into the question of
manning the navy. They reported that it was desirable
to employ ships of war for the purpose of transport in-
stead of hired vessels, where that could be done without
prejudice to the public servicea;hbfint,ttco g
thoemoirtit,aroencsdeoead rntmo-e by
m a
ndoarn--
tion had never been carried into effect, notwithstanding
the number of shies available for that duty. At Liver-
rep ,
x.:
,nov
el: tlaehnnedtr eye wayofficer,
nhe re a ,
had
al
andi
dr i es -ewDe i
seen
i-
ibattleicnh aews
was
that the steamer ssip
Pacific, of 1,500 tons burden, had been taken up to carry
troops to Ireland, and in the same newspaper he read
that the City of Manchester, a steamer of 2,109 tons,
had been chartered to convey troops to Gibraltar. Now
these were services which could w,ll have been per-
formed by ships of war, and in his opinion the statement
which was sometimes made, that carrying troops inter-
fered with the discipline of a man of war was entirely
without foundation. On the contrary, he thought
ships were employed a larger num-
berof able moreableseamen would be retained in the service
thatof the State. In the estimates of the present year
he found a sum of 495,0001. for the hire of transports.
Now, the estimate this year fir carrying out the recom-
mendations of the committee was 50,0001. If a part of
this useless expenditure of 495,000/. was applied towards
keeping up men-of-war transports, employment would La
ryedeadtt.
nefdi .
naoet
hditHotretouihefitr.dt hadht),luyoln the
os, t
theahA4ewlsuggestedtodbohoeore Albert,
triggers,kw,
oytof
ahor trrin I
de,
lieaes
found for half-pay officers who were now wasting their
b.st years on shore, while a great saving would be
effected in the
p.pisaetdo:i:otrt
ooettmsfgmhmeaebtonot
being
uiteentthrmrhgeaaponcti
alrruidej
Plymouth.
wnernei
dockyardsdwhe
we
former
ukh e
should
, boni
en:as:a:
kept
and 2,500 labourers, the work performed by all of whom
might be done by the sailors of our fleet. He was con-
vinced that, without aiding a shilling to the expenditure
of the country, we might obtain a I trge accession to our
force of regular seamen ; and he trusted that a coua-
ruittee would be appointed to take these matters into
csosidera.ior.

Mr. BENTINCIC contrasted the thinness of the house
on that occasion, when a question involving not the
honour
or the reputation, but the very existence of the
country was under discussion, with the crowded attend•
acme the other evening, when the simple issue was
whether certain gentlemen should sit on one side of the
house or the other. During a porticn of that important
discussion only 15 members were present, though that
assembly was the rerresentative chamber of the firs.
inaritirue nation in the weal. It had been shown
that what was called economy in these matters was
in nine cases out of ten nothing but extravagance
and waste. There was no u:.° blinking the fact,
that when they talked of the necessity of maintain-
ing their naval defences they meant simply this--were
they or were they not in a position to resist attack
from their near,st neighbour ? The exact condition of
our naval defences and everything that passed in our
docliyards were very well known in France, arnl it was
therefore quite idle and absurd to affect any mystifica-
tion about the mater. They had to consider how far
they were able to repel a French invasion, riot that he
anticipate] anything of that kind. The distinguished
min now on the tlrone of. France would, no doubt, do
a I in his power, in the . interest of both countries, to
p .event the outbreak of-hostilities Letween them ; but
he was not omnipotent, and after what had recently or-
eurred in England no snail could say what might be the
rowequenceP of acasualty.
.Notwitheanding what ha]
fallen from the gallant admiral opposite, it was not very
clear how we could at all • times command a sufle:ent
nuinter of seamen for 'nmetiog what was termed an emer-
gency, but which simply ,rneant an invasion, without

maintaining the "continuous service" system. It
appeared that a few months ago we had not a
single vessel in commission that was efficient for
the purposes of defence, and he believed we were
still i❑ an unprotected state. He was in favour of the
appointment of a committee, which he thought would
be the most expeditious mode of inquiry. That inquiry
ought to extend to the constitution of the Board of Ad-
miralty, which was totally inefficient to perform its
duties. The proof of this was furnished by the fact that
that house was now trying to solve the problem of the
manning of the navy. tie entirely concurred in the ob-
servations of his noble and gallant friend (Lord C.
Paget) wi,h regard to the transport service, and was
quite convinced that if he moved for a return of the
oust of that service since the commencement of the Cri-
mean war he should bo able to show that the money
wastefully expended upon it would have been sufficient
to build a navy. He hoped that the present Board of
Admiralty would entirely remodel and re-organise our
transport system. (Hear.)

Sir J. PAKINGTON was sorry that the hon. and gal-
lant member for the East Riding of Yorkshire should
have thought that the Government had been guilty
of any discourtesy with regard to this motion ; but he
certainly did anticipate that another debate, of which
the house was now in the middle, would have occupied
every night this week, and that this question would have
been postponed. Turning to the speech of the lion, and
gallant officer opposite (Sir C. Napier) ho thought that
he had borne rather hardly upon successive Boards of
1 Admiralty when he said that it was in vain for any offi-
cer to approach the hoard, because any representations
from officers of the navy were always treated with indif-
ference. (Hear.) He should himself be exceedingly sorry
to be guilty of any discourtesy either to the gallant
admiral or any other officer of the navy, and from his
experience, which was limited to a very few weeks, he
could not believe that the members of the naval profes•
sioe, who succeeded each other at that board, would show
any disinclination to entertain proposals which might 1
come from such high and justly respected authorities as
the gallant admiral. He honoured the feelings which
had led the hon. and gallant officer to preos this matt :r
upon the attention of Parliament ; he fully admitted the
difficulty, if not danger, to which this country was ex-
posed by attention not having been paid to this subject
earlier, but he thought that the house would do him the
justice to admit that a great part of the speech of the gal-
lant admiral was directed to the topics which he himself
brought under the notice of the house when introducing
the navy estimates. (Hoar.) He then expressed in
strong terms the deep sense which he entertained of the
importance of this subject, and stated how anxious he
felt to find some remedy for the existing state of things.
He then referred to the slowness with which our ships
were manned ; but he was happy to inform his hon. and
gallant friend behind him (Capt. Duncombe) that con-
siderable progress had since been made in completing
the crews of the very ships which he had mentioned.
He a'so alluded to what he thought the very unwise dis-
missal of the continuous service men and the paying off
of ships last year, and to the necessity of recomrnis-
aioning the same ships this year ; and stated the views
of the Government upon that practice of commis-
sioning ships for a short time, which he then and still
thought a most unwise practice, and which he hoped to
amend. He was sure that the gallant admiral and
his hon. and gallant friend behind him would admit that
these were matters which could not be corrected in a
few days or weeks. On the same occasion he stated,
almost in the words of his hon. and gallant friend, that
the defenceless state of our coasts was humiliating and
disgraceful to the country as a naval power. (Hear.)
Since then he had from day to day been endeavouring
in conjunction with the Board of Admiralty to remedy
that state of things, and he hoped with some success.
We had now more ships and men available than we had
at that time, He did not seek to attain impossibilities
by endeavouring to correct in a few weeks evils which
were the result cf the impolicy of years ; what he
aimed at and what he did not despair of accomplishing
was, to put our navy on such a permanent footing that
England should not again suffer the same risk and the
same inconvenience to which she was now exposed.
(Hear.) At the same time he must express the regret
with which he had heard the gallant admiral say that
we had no means of defence and no ships. (Sir
C. Napier said that he had not used such an expression.)
He could assure the gallant admiral that he took his words
down, and they were that we had no defence whatever
and no ship. No doubt he meant that we had no ships in
full commission or in the channel. [Hear, hear, from Sir
C. Napier.] In the ports we had some of the noblest
ships that were ever built. (Hear.) At Sheerness, at
Portsmouth, and at P.yrnouth, we had souse of the no-
blest men-of-war ever launched, which were in the first
condition of steam ordinary and could be prepared for
sea in 48 hours. (Hear.) He was sorry to say that at
this moment we had not the means of manning them so
readily as he could wish, but supposing an emergency
should arise he had that faith in the spirit and energy of
the country that he believed there would be no difficulty
in sending a fleet into the channel at a very short no-
tice. (Hear, hear.) He was very glad to hear trom the
hon. and gallant admiral that lie did not think that this
country would sanction the resort to any compulsory
manning of the navy or any return to the
system of impressment. (Hear, hear.) He did not be-
, lieve the spirit of. the country would bear a return to
that system. (Seer, bear.) The only result of its adop-
tion would be to drive our sailors to other countries,
• and he hoped that we should never sanction any plan
• for manning the navy more stringent than that adopted
for recruiting the army. (Hear, hear.) If, then, we could
not adopt compulsion we must turn to other means, and
must endeavour to put our navy on so;perrnanent a foot-
ing that we might at all times, and under all circuin-
stances, rely upon having a force which should amply
provide for the defence of the country. The real and
practical question was, how that was to be done and
he quite acknowledged that that was a fair subject for
inquiry. When notice of the motion was given he stated
in private conversation with the hon and gallant mem-
ber for Southwark that inquiry had already taken place
to a sufficient extent ; but, upon reconsideration, he
had altered that Opinion, and he would shortly ex-
plain to the house the reason of the change. The
noble lord the member for Sandwich had asked
him whether he had ever seen the report of the
committee of 1852 with respect to the manning
of the navy. To that report he had alluded
at considerable length upon a former occasion,
when he stated what the noble lord would admit to be
the fact, that the report in question was the origin of all
the improvements recently introduced as regarded man-
ning the navy. He thought that the hon. and gallant
member for Southwark had hardly done justice to the
contents of that valuable report. The hon. and gallant
admiral had stated that the recommendations of the com-
mittee with respect to bounties and other matters had
not been carried out, but, with one exception, he had
omitted all reference to those parts of the report which
had been carried into effect. A great deal of what had
fallen from the hon. and gallant officer on the subject of
the continuous service system ho bad heard with regret,
for he had no idea that the gallant admiral disapproved
the system of continuance for 10 years. He believed the
dismissal of 3,000 continuance service men by the late
Government was one of the most unfortunate steps con•
nected with the navy which had ever been taken. The
Board of Admiralty bad been occupied for the last few
weeks in anxious endeavours to give extended effect to
the continuance service system. Their object was to in-
crease the number of continuance service men. They
were also considering measures connected with the sys-
tem of pensions, and were devoting a good deal of atten-
tion to the present state of the petty officers of the navy,
being anxious to adopt a system under which no man
should be allowed to hold rank and pay as a petty officer
unless he had entered for continuance service. It was by
such measures that they hoped to effect their object of
est ablishing a good standing navy. Tee noble,lord the
member for Sandwich had referred to the Royal Albert,
and had recommended that the crew should be held to-
gether. That, however, could not be done until all the
men were entered under the continuance service system.
In addition to that system the country had derived con-
siderable advantage from thecoastguard and naval volun-
teers, The establishment of the corps of naval volun-
teers was entirely o wing to the committee of 1852. It
might be termed a marine militia, and bethought the hon.
and gallant member for Southwark would hardly re-
commend that more compulsion should be resorted to
with respect to it than was now adopted in the case of
the laud militia, at all events until it had been proved
that the present system had failed. At present the vo-
lunteer plan was most successful, and so tar as the naval
volunteers and the Coast-guard were concerned we bad
a reserve which, though not so numerous as it ought to
be, was still very effective. The noble lord tie member
for Sandwich had expressed a fear that the Coastguard
were allowed to become rusty and unsuited to sea ser-
vice. That was a point to which the Board of Admi-
ralty were directing their attention, They hoped to
perfect a system under which the seagoing pokers of
the men should be kept in constant activity. With re-
spect to the three most important points c oenectecl with
the navy—the continuance service system, the Coast-
guard, and the naval volunteers—the committee of 1852
had conferred great benefits upon the country, and had
rendered unnecessary any further inquiry. But there
was one branch of the subject to which the attention of
that committee had not been sufficiently directed—he
meant the value and capabilities of the mercantile marine
as an auxiliary to the Royal navy, and it was here, he
thought, that further inquiry might take place with ad••
vs tege. niece the committee drew up their report consi-
derable changes had occurred in the constitution cf the
mercantile marine, and in consenting to a further in•
quiry ho by no means wished to thri w the slightest
t, wile upon the gallant and very distinguished officer who
a ,nducted the investigation of 1852. It was of the ut-
most importance, however, that means should be found
for making the mercantile marine more useful to the
navy in case of. emergency, and with that view he
thought it desirable that some inquiry should be insti•
toted. Then came the question whether the investiea-
tier) should be intrusted to a comunis-ion or to a cora-
m ttee. He pre fs rred a commission. There was no reason
why a commission, as anticipated by toe noble lord the
member for Sandwich, should consist exclusively
f naval officers and Lords of the Admiralty ; on the
contrary, one of his reasons for preferring a commission
to a committee was that it would enable the country to
ehiain the as.sistaece of geutlonien practically acquainted
with the tee rcantile marine. Besides, it was important
that the inquiry should be carried on and concluded as
eromptly;its possible, and the noble lord the member for
Sandwich was wrong in supposing that delay won d be
h necessary result of a commission. If the house ap-
proved a commission he w old take care that th<re
should be 00 nen( cessary delay in its appeinttnent ; and
when Once appointed it might sit whenever it like:,
witheut reference to holidays or adjournments, and carry
on the inquiry continuously. The result would be that
the public would receive the report with greater prompt-
'Mee than the well-known dilatory proceedings of a cona-