The Sun.
London, England, 1858-05-04 00:00:00

which our resources had recoverer; therrise,ves from rheas-
r ression under which they laboured in November last.
H, ,gr.ed with Cie hon. g4ritleman nppn.it- that they
ought rot to look with de-poncielrcy to the future, but
Viet they had every reason to indulge, if not in sanguine
exoectattons at least in no unfavourable forebodings.
(Elear, hear.) With regard to his hnn. friend's (Sir H.
Willoughby%) suggestion on the subjeot of converting
the Exchequer Bond, into Exchequer Bills, he must re-
mind him that the Exchequer Bill market was a very
sensitive one, and that this was not a time at which to
venture upon any rash experiments. (Cheers.)
Mr. CAYLEY made some observations on the finan-
cial measures of Sir R. Peel.
Mr. NV. EWART opposed the principle of the stamp
upon cheques, and objected to the budget as not con-
formable with sound principles.
• The bill was then read a second time.
STAMP DUTIES ON DRAFTS BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. T. BARING said that a few days ago, he pre-
sented a petition against this bill from a body of men
whose transactions and character were second to none
i❑ the kingdom, the members of the Stock Exchange,
who opposed it as contrary to the sound principles of
taxation. He was so unwilling to do anything that
would disturb the budget that be should not take any
active part in the matter, but he did share the doubts of
the pettioners as to the soundness of principle of such a
tax. What reconciled him to it was that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer took it for the purpose of making a
surplus. He said that he wanted a surplus. Every
Chancellor liked a surplus, and the house were seldom
unwilling to give it, and so that he might not be left
destitute, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, "Give
me a penny." (A laugh.) Tne appeal was so touching
that he was inclined to say, " Take 2d. at once." (A
laugh.) It might be thought that the stamp would fall
on the bankers, who were a rich claw, but they were a
shrewd class, and had determined to put it on the cue-
omer. It was a tax on correct accounts. It was true
it was a very smell tax, but itswould cause much in-
convenience. Mr. Si, ney Smith had given an amusing
account of the life of an Englishman, from hi-
taxed cradle to his taxed grave. (An hon. member :
You mean Brougham.) He be.ieved it was Sidney Smith,
but there was room now for a history of commerce
which was built up on staveps from beginning to end.
Fie eugge,ted that cheques which had passed the clear.
ing-house, and were paid on the day of date, should be
exempted.
Mr. GREAVES did not intend to oppose the tax, bu,
he thought it would operate as a check upon the drawing
of cheques ; and it was to be regretted that it was nit
withheld till after the committee, who were considering;
the whole subject, bad reported. Sill, he so approved
of the general provisions of the budget that he would
not oppose it. There bad been a meeting of bankers on
the sulj -et, and they bad resolved not to oppose the tax,
but they hoped that more time would be allowed before
it passed through committee, in order that some incon-
venience-. might he obviated.
Mr. RAI PER s tid the tax was one as little objec-
tionable as any that could be proposed. He did not
share in the apprehensions that it would act as a check
on the banking system. The present system had pre-
vailed so long that the public were too familiar with it
advantages to give them up fir the sake of a penny.
(Hear.) In Scotland, where the sy,tem was older than
in England, there von: not only no opposition, but some
expression of feeling in its favour. He thought it would
act as a hardship to no one. Perhaps in a few places in
the country, where the cheque system was as yet rather
an innovation, a large cheque might be occasionally sub-
stituted for several statelier one.. That might also be the
case in some of the larger houses, which were even more
close-fisted and short-sighted. (A. laugh.) The objection
that it would do so generally was one which came ill
from bankers, because, if that were so, 11Npy would save
the labour of a certain number of clerks, so that it would
be, in face, a saving. But, what they were really afraid
of was, that some liberal banker should offer, as an ad
vantage to the customer, to pay for the stamps, in which
case they would all have to follow the example, and it
would become a tax on them. _ _

Mr. TURNER had presented a petition from a consi-
derable number of bankers and merchants at Manches-
ter, who 01-jected to this as a step in the wrong direc-
tion. It was a tax on commerce. Its only merit was
its smallne-s, but it would be a tax, and would tend,
though be could not say to what extent, to restrict
the use of the cheque. The latter was a conve-
nient and economical substitute for the circulat-
ing medium, and the restriction would compel the
use of a larger quantity of the precious metals. He did
not think so large a revenue as was expected would arise
from the tax, as instead of taking a receipt for the sum paid
by means of a cheque, the person drawing it would after-
wards get it back from his bankers to serve as a receipt.
Sir G. B. PECHELL asked whether the cheques issued
by loan societies would come under the operation of this
bill ? By their special act they were exempted from all
stamp duties.

Ali. WILLIAMS did not share in the objection to this
tax, or think it would be a restriction on trade. Of course
all taxes were objectionable, and nobody objected to them
more than tradesmen; but the reduction of other taxes,
including the receipt stamps, and the reduction of the
postage to a uniform rate, were recent improvements
which quite compensated for that.
Mr. J. E WART suggested that postage stamps should
be used for this purpose.

Colonel SYKLS ;u4gested a stamp on tradesmen's bills
above 109._ (A laugh)

After a few words from Mr. DENT,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the bill had been opposed by gentlemen who said that they
objected on principle, as it introduced restrictions on com-
merce, but the fact was that the bill only sought to extend
a principle which was already part of the law of the land.
(Hear, hear.) That being so, the exemption could not be
justified on any principle whatever, and ought no longer
to be permitted to exist. (Hear.) The law was that every
backer's cheque should pay a stamp, and he need not now
discuas the principle of the exemption in favour of
cheques drawn within a circle'of 15 miles from the Imnk
at which the cheque was payable, for no one had at-
tempted to vindicate it. (Hear, hear.) Objections had
been raised on the part of the gentlemen of the Stock Ex-
change, and if there was any body of her Majesty's snb•
jects more remarkable for ingenuity than another, it was
the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange. (:1 laugh.) Accord-
ing to the arguments of that acute and ingenious body of
gentlemen, they would suffer injury and inconvenience from
the tax, which they at the same time said they could evade.
(Hear, and laughter.) He had that confidence in the in-
genuity of the members of the Stock Exchange, that he
had no doubt they could. (A. laugh.) While he was sure
that they would not care much about the impost of ld., he
had no doubt that if they had any artificial arrangements
which the stamp would interfere with, they would adapt
themselves to circumstances, so as to get rid of the incon-
venience. But, if so, where was the injustice to them ?
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) And if, •n the other hand,
they find it more convenient to use a stamp, where then
was the injustice of making them pay a penny for that
convenience? (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It was, in fact,
a tax on convenience, not on luxury—(hear, hear)—and
when they remembered the great reduction in their income
tax, and reflected that Government could not reduce and
finally extinguish the income tax unless the revenue of the
country was substantially built up by means like the pre-
sent, he was sure they would soon cease to murmur about
the stamp. (Hear, hear.) As to the complaint that oom-
merce was restricted by a system of stamps, ke would re-
mind them that by this new system of taxation by stamps
there was no interest that had been so much benefited as
commerce. (Hear, hear.) Commerce had benefited most
by the reduction of the rates of postage, and the hon.
member who raised the objection being perhaps the greatest
among commercial men, he might be said to have profited
the most. (Laughter, and hear, hear.) The suggestions
which had been thrown out were such as could not be con-
sidered now, as they did not affect the principle of .the
measure, but they might he brought before the committee,
who would, no doubt, fairly consider them, though he
, could not hold out any promise that he would sanction
them. In answer to the hose. and gallant member for
Brighton (Sir G. Pechell) he could only say that if benefit
societies enjoyed any exemption it would not be interfered
with by this act. [Sir G. Pechell—l said loan societies.]
He believed he had entered as much as was necessary at
this stage into the question; he did not understand that
there was any serious objection on principle. He was glad
to hear from the hon member for Montrose that the peo-
ple of Scotland— another class of her Majesty's subjects,
probably not inferior in acuteness and ingenuity to the
gentlemen of the Stock Exchange--(a laugh)—approved of
the measure. (Heat, hear.) He should now ask the house
to sanction the second rea ling of the bill.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Friday.
In reference to Mr. Ewart's inquiry as to postage-
stamps,

Die CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that the question had been considered, and there were
very great difficulties, but it was not entirely decided, and
he should speak on the subject in committee.
THE INDIAN QUESTION.

The debate on the Indian resolutions was then resumed.
Mr. AYRTON, in rising to move the amendment of
which he had given notice, said that he did not think that
the nature of the existing Government was understood.
In his amendment he proposed the substitution of the
words " Minister of the Crown" for more precise terms,
because, though be did not wish to enter into a merely ver-
bal discussion, he felt that if the name was of any value
at all, it was as being consonant with the nature of the
office, and they could not give a name till they bad settled
the duties and practice of the office. He should therefore
propose that the fixing of the title of the Minister should
be left to those whose duty it would be to bring in s bill
founded on those resolutions, though of course it should be
a Minister equal in rank to a Secretary of State. (Hear.)
He should also propose the insertion of words to set forth
the purpose of the resolution, this being the only one in
which the purpose was not explained. Being anxious,
then, to secure individual responsibility in themembers of
council, and a controlling influence over the acts of the
Minister, he should propose in resolution No. 2 to leave
out after the first word " that," and insert "in order to
ensure the administration of such Government with duo
care, caution, and efficiency, all the powers and duties now
vested in the East India Company, the Court of Direc-
tors, or the Court of Proprietors of the said Company,
either Mom, or with the approbation of the Commissioners
for the affairs of India, shall be exercised and performed
by a Minister of the Crown in council."
Lord STANLEY—I confess that when I heard the
speech of the hon. and learned gentleman I felt some sur-
prise on recollecting the votes which he gave—first, on the
introduction of the bill of the noble lord (Palmerston),
and, secondly, on the proposition which was submitted to
us on Friday last, for the whole of the hon. gentleman's
speech to-night was, in its practical effect, an argument in
favour
of the Government of India as now carried on by the
secrecy East India Company, and against the conduct of such Go-
vernment by a Minister of the Crown. (Hear, hear.) He
goutlhdeaGttoenvedrnhmis eandtmtionia.
ooffththe rcirsek of leiacvhi
the the
v,
stration ; of his practical irresponsibility for his actions ;
has
Minister; spoken
and of the danger which would result from such secrecy
and irresponsibility. If I had so little faith as the hon.
and learned gentleman appears to have in the efficacy of a
Parliamentary check, and of the control to be exercised by
this house, I confess I should have thought twice, and
should have hesitated long, before I consented to vote for
a transfer of the government of India to a Minister of the
Crown. Now, what is the object which the hon. gentle-
man proposes to attain ? He wishes the duties of the
Home Government of India to be performed by a Minister
of the Crown in council. It is true the hon. and learned
1 member drew a distinction between the acts of A Minister