The Sun.
London, England, 1858-03-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON SATURDAY EVENING MARCEI 13, 15NR

ime, five at a time of way and peace, or six while there
waspeace. He was at a loss to reconcile the restriction
with tb e dictates of wisdom or justice, small as the residue
of the required time might be, whatever the amount of his
energy or ospacity, his courage or zeal, ho had neither
appeal nor redress. The reserved list was his destina-
tion, and that of two many instances of a similar exclu-
sion which excited universal regret, and enlisted the
widest public sympathy. The hardship was increased
by the frequent reappointment of the same officer to
commands. By their death the country was debarred
the advantages it expected from their experience, while
it was deprived of the services of their survivors, who
had been unduly and capriciously denied the opportunity
of that employment for which they bad in vain reiterated
the most earnest desire. The easy and obvious redress,
if the present system continued in force, was to allow the
time spent by a commander in actual service to qualify
for the flag on the active list. (Hear.) The Navy List
was surcharged with the names of men who despaired of
promotion. In the Royal Artillery, Engineers, Marines,
as well as regiments of the Cavalry and the line, the
officers destitute of patronage and means of purchase, by
perseverance in the service, could attain the highest
rank, while the gray-headed lieutenant of the navy was
a proverb of neglect and hopelessness, and a standing
reproach to the administration of our national profession.
(Hear.) He assured the committee that in offering these
observations ha was actuated by no personal motive, but
so long as he had a seat in that house, on whatever side
be sat —and he had had a very comfortable seat on the
Opposition side for about fik e and a half years—(a laugh)
—he should do his utmost to maintain the welfare of the
naval profession, because he believed that the prosperity
e
cilintrYf
was inseparably bound up with it. The
bon, it Lambeth had as usual remarked upon
the number th. membernumber of admirals on the list ; but those gallant
men had deserved well of their country—they had fought
her bat' lee in time of war, and surely no generous mind
would grudge them that which they had so well earned.
If it would be any satisfaction, however, to the hon.
member for Lambeth, he could tell him that those brave
men were being fast removed from among us, and that
not many of them would much longer enjoy the pittance
which they had so nobly won. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. TOWNSEND, who had given notice of his intention
to urge upon the Government the propriety of increasing
the wages of the d3ckyard labourers from 13s. to 16s, per
week, said that his notice applied more particularly to vote
No. but as he understood that there might be a long de-
lay before that vote would come on, he trusted that he
might be allowed to bring before the committee the claims
of the dockyard labourers upon the present occasion.
The CHAIRMAN said that it would be quite irregular
to discuss an item in vote No. 8 in the present stage of the
estimates, and the hon. gentleman was therefore out of
order.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 1,000,0031. on account of the wages of sea•
men and marines,
S WILLOUGHBY said that as the committee had

cone to an agreement to waive all discussion niCiii the
present occasion, it was not his intention to raise one ; but
he gave notice that on a future occasion he should call at-
tention to a mode of preceding by which, as it appeared to
him, the estimates were rendered of no avail whatever.
In the years 18564857 the grant, including the supple-
mentary estimates for No. 10, naval stores, for the building
of ships, &c., had been exceeded by 516,4521. without any
authority from Parliament. That was a subject to which
on a future occasion he should call attention ; but in the
meantime he wanted an assurance from his hon. friend at
the head of the Admiralty that all moneys voted for a
special service should be applied to that service and to that
service alone. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. WOOD said that that the circumstance to which
the hon. baronet referred had occurred when he (Sir. C.
Wood was at the Admiralty, and it would be his duty
therefore to explain it when the hon. baronet should direct
attention to it more in detail. He would only now observe
that the course which was then taken was under the pro-
visions of an Act of Parliament, and ho had no doubt that
he should he able to satisfy the house that there had boon
no irregularity in the proceeding.
Sir J. PARINGTON said that the particular subject to
which his hon. friend referred was one entirely between
his hon. friend and the ric'ht hon. gentleman opposite. In
answer to the appeal of his right hon. friend he had no
hesitation in saying that he entirely concurred in the prin-
ciple that money ought to be strictly applied to the pur-
poses for which it was voted. Under the terms of the Ap-
propriation Act considerable latitude was allowed with
respect to the appropriation of grants ; but how far it
might be desirable to amend the terms of that Act he was
not prepared to say.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that a clause had been
introduced into the Appropriation Act,—clause 26,—by
whose authority he knew not, which entirely upset the
whole system of appropriation.
Mr. J. WILSON said the hon. baronet was entirely
mistaken about the clause to which he referred, and which
was numbered 27 and not 26, in the Appropriation Act.
That clause was originally inserted in the Act long before
either the hon. baronet or himself had a seat in Parliament.
The Act was discussed clause by clause, and the clause
alluded to was unanimously adopted. It would be in the
recollection of the committee that last year's estimates
were taken in two separate sessions, part before and part
after the dissolution. The same thing occurred in 1841,
and as it was doubted whether the estimates granted pre-
viously to the dissolution could he applied to the service of
that year, a short Act was passed in the Christmas session,
declaring that the votes of the two sessions should bo
treated as applicable to the service of the entire year. The.
clause to which the hon. baronet referred was inserted in
the Appropriation Act of last session.
Mr. VT. WILLIAMS believed that, the clause was a very
mischievous one. Ile opposed it, last session, and would
have in fisted on a division if he had had any hope of
success.

Sir C. WOOD was anxious to prevent a false I
impression being male on the public, mind by
' this discussion. In old times the whole of the naval vote
was considered by the Government of the day to be appli-
cable to any purpose. When Sir J. Graham was First
Lord of the Admiralty, in 183,), he brought the subject be-
ra the house and induced them to effect a change. Hon.
gentlemen must know perfectly well that it was altogether
impossible to estimate accurately the expenditure under
each head. If the house desired to prevent any surplus
being applied to any purpose but that for which it was
voted, it would be necessary for them to vote much larger
sums under each head than the Government thought re-
quisite at the time of proposing the estimates. That would
be a very inconvenient course ; moreover, it was rendered
unnecessary by the change effected by Sir J. Graham,
which secured to the country a detailed expenditure of the
sums that might be voted in excess.
After a few words from Sir 11. WlLLOtioetuv, condem-
natory of the 26th clause of the Appropriation Act, under
which any vote of last year might be applied to such pur-
poses as the Government might direct,
Mr. BENTINCK expressed his concurrence in the ob-
servations of the hon. and gallant member for Christchurch
we
ii
sat
twe
raweyd by
as to the false economy pursued by this country for some
years past, by which millions of money had been wasted.
He contended that the naval department
tmpeonstsicbolnyldnenseovnervebre.
efficiently oJnductediweihuntthtibl_etyn could nothnetislysttehme
nofavy plawciansg, c
lii
ka
vilia
thnes
army,
in
ar
inaty was, positionsdd administered
which
men of competent professional
knowledge. He also contended that the principle of re-
sponsibility was not enforced against the Board of Admi-
ralty. There was a total want of system in the depart-
ment, and the responsibility was so divided that it was
merely nominal. Another objection to the present system
these absurdities of the system
was the constant changing of the Lords of the Admiralty,
ad
soonby
He hoped the time
would
Oaf A
ll
would be abolished.
Mr. LINDSAY was of opinion that the important
position of First Lord of the Admiralty was better filled by
o cc ne
ar
arrive
v change h a
wnbgeen
a civilian than it would be by a naval man, because the
former would probably be able, as having no professional
predilections, to take larger views than the latter. He by
no means wished to decry professional experience, but the
First Lord of the Admiralty ee present was assisted by
naval lords of great experience. There was one thing in
the management of late Boards of the Admiralty which
had frequently astonished him, and that was the non-em-
ployment of the magnificent screw ships which formed part
of the naval force of the country as guardships, instead of
the inferior class of ships at present so employed. Every
practical man was aware that a ship deteriorated more
when laid up in ordinnxy than when employed on active
service, and independently even of that consideration he
believed that the finest ships in the service ought to be em-
ployed as flagships at the various ports, to be prepared in
case of any sudden emergency either for defensive opera-
tions or to go to sea. Ho hoped that the right hon. gentle-
man the First Lord of the Admiralty would take into
consideration the suggestion which he had thrown out.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE quite agreed with what had
fallen from the hon. gentleman who had lest addressed the
house in reference to employing a better class of ships as
guardships ; but he could not help sayinc, that in his
opinion that branch of the naval administration of the
country which related to the construction of ships was in
a most anomalous condition. (Hear.) Ships for the Royal
navy were constructed without any reference to those
princip • lea of shipbuilding which obtained in the merchant
service, and which were proved to be the sound principles
for obtaining speed combined with safety. A class of
frigates had only lately been construoted of which he would
take the Diadem as an example ; that ship had cost an oiler-
mous sum of money in the endeavours to force her through
the water, a thing which, from the appearance of her, it ap-
peared almost impossible to effect ; but at last, at an enor-
mous expense, she was forced through the water at the rate
of 12 knots an hour. He considered that the plans of ships
to be built ought to be submitted to a committee of prac-
tical men, and, even if they were laid before that house,
there was enough practical experience in that house to
prevent such blunders recurring as had already been CODI.
mitted. He understood that a new frigate, the Orlando,
was expected to prove much superior t) her predecessors,
but the experiment which had been required to arrive at
her model, lengthening ships 4 or 5 feet at a time instead
of 50 feet, had been most costly. For his own part ho did
not think that the Board of Admiralty would ever be pro-
perly managed by a civilian, for no civilian could be ex-
pected to know anything about the matter —(a laugh)—and
under the guidance of •
civilians a suer of money had been
wasted which would have sufficed to construct two navies.
(Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to, as were the following votes
OD account :-
450,000/. towards defra • the of the victual-
lingprig expenses
70,0001. for the salaries of officers and the contingent
expenses of the Admiralt ffi
6 ),000/. towards
y-oce.
defraying the expanses of the coast-
sil and naval coast
volunteers.
30,000/, for the ,
salaries of officers connected with the
scientific department of the navy.
70,000/. for the salaries
of officers and the contingent
expanses of her Majeste'e naval establishment at home.
10,000/. for the the naval establishments
expellees of
abroad.
On the vote of 450
/. on account for the wages of
artificers employed in the dockyard,
Sir F. SMITH urged upon the right hon. gentleman at
the he, c.of the eldwiralty the propriety of giving to the
artific .- employed higher wages, as it was impossible to
secure the services of the most efficient men without giving
them an adequate remuneration.
Admiral WALCOTT desired to impress the same view
upon the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. TOWNSEND wished to press upon the attention of
the Government and of the committee the propriety of
raising the pay of the labourers in our dockyards from
15s. to 15s. per week. Th© wages allowed to the same less than
class of men in private establishments was not
18s. per week ; and when they remembered how
liberal
they were in voting pensions and allowances to illustrious
personages, it could not surely be said that the country
could not afford to give to a body of poor man whose ser-
vices wale so essential in maintaining the national honour,
He had reason
"a fair day's wage for a fair day's Wock."