The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-14 00:00:00

NATIONAL COLLECTION OF PICTURES.

Lord ELCHO asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer whether the Government intended to take any
steps, during the rfresent session, with a view to provid-
ing increased accommodation fur the national c Alection
of pictures?
The C iIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
sheuld be sorry to say that her Maje,ty's Government
would not take step to inereale the accommodation re-
ferred to, but it was not then in his power to say speci-
fically what were their intentions in this respect. The
matter could not long remain in its present state, but
he was unable to give a specific answer to the question.
SIR JAMES HUDSON AND MR. ERSKINE.
Mr. WISE asked the Under Secretary for Foreign
Affairs whether Sir James Hudson was to remain at
Tura' as her Majesty's Envoy Extraordinary and Minis-
ter Plenipotentiary; and whether it was intended to
recal the Secretary of Legation, Mr. Erskine, from the
sane mission ?

The CHANCELLOR of Via EXCHEQUER said
there was no intention on the part of her Maje.ty's Go-
vernment to recal Sir James Hudson from Turin. (Hear,
bear.) Great services were not to be cancelled by an
act of carelessness, though for the moment it was to be
regretted. (Hear, hear.) With respect to Mr. Erskine,
he had been re: ailed in order to explain his coaduc',
and be had been suspended in consequence.

ARMY RETURNS.
Mr. BAGWELL asked the Secretary f•)r War when
the army returns moved for on the IGth March would be
laid on the table of the hou 4e ?
Gen. PEEL said he h ,ped to ba able to comply with
the request on Friday next at the latest.
STRAITS OF MALACCA, Stc.

In answer to Viscount BURY,
Mr. BAILLIE said that Government would not be
able to turn their attention to this settlement till after
the termination of the Indian outbreak, they being
somewhat connected with that country.
Mr. lIORSMAN thought the matter should be con-
sidered on its own merits, and expressed a hope that
the Government would not delay turning their attm-
tion to it.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE was at Singapore in 1820,
and visited it often during the subsequent 17 years. He
never heard any complaints against the convict popula-
tion. They were indeed a better class of persons than
.the lawless people who emigrated from the neighbouring
islands and countries. He knew a lady at Penang, the
wife of an official gentleman, who always took her, do-
mestic servants from the convicts—(laughter)--and she

informed him that she preferred murderers and thieves.
(Laughter.) Most of the murders were committed
from j.alousy and the objects of their jealousy being re-
-moved she found them excellent domestic servants.
Mr. MANGLES hoped no change would be made
without consulting the East India Company, and espe-
cially the Governor-General of India. If after that her
Majesty's Government considered it desirable to make a
change the East India Company would offer no objec-
tion.

STADE DUES.
Mr. JOHN LEWIS RICARDO moved that an
humble address be presented to her Majesty, respect-
fully representing the injury to British Commerce in-
flicted by the tax levied by Hanover on merchandise and
shipping ascending the river Elbe, under the denomina-
tion of the Stade Dues, and praying that her Majesty
will be pleased to give directions to her Ministers to
give notice of the termination of the Treaty between
the Un ted Kingdom and Hanover, of the 22nd day of
July, 1844, according to the terms of the Bth article of
that Treaty. These dues were a serious impediment to
the commerce of this country. They had been established
800 years ago, under a state of things which had long
passel away. They were paid to Hanover for permis-
sion to navigate the Eloe to Hamburg, for which Ha-
never performed no service whatever. The collection of
the dues compelled vessels to carry two sets of papers,
and amounted, on some kind of goods, to nearly the
cost of the freight, and on other kinds to much more.
He urged the Government to give ❑otice of the abroga-
tion of the treaty under which this iniquitous tax was
leuied, which was a disgrace to the present state of civi-
lisation in the world.

Mr. B. MOORE seconded the motion. rho dues ought
not any longer to be submitted to by this country.
Mr. HENLEY would be very glad to see the toll pro-
perly got rid of, but before notice was given of 'putting an
end to the treaty, the subject should be considered—as the
Sound dues had been—by a committee of that house. The
inquiry would not take very long.
Lord PALMERSTON denied the analogy of these dues
with the Sound dues. It was a question how far the
Stacie dues were legal. This was not a question for a com-
mittee, but for the Executive Government, acting under
the advice of their law officers. On the other hand, we
should carefully see what would be the effect of abrogating
the present law, before we gave notice to terminate it.
He thought that the Government ought soriousiy to con-
sider the question.
Mr. CLAY said that at present much of the trade of
Hamburg with this country was now diverted to Stettin,
a much less convenient locality, in consequence of this tax.
The matter was urgent, and should be dealt with at once.
The evil lay not only in the money payment, but in ithe
delay and inconvenience caused by their collection. "Ho
believe.' that the dues might be bought for 200,0)0/.
Mr. HUTT inveighed against the impolicy and injus-
tice of the toll. Hanover did nothing for the navigation
of the Elbe, which was entirely defrayed by the city of
Hamburg. The only mode of getting rid of the toll was
by buying it up.
Mr. AIILNER GIBSON contended that before ' any
proper conclusion could bo arrived at a committee of in-
quiry was necessary. He hoped that the offer of the Go-
vernment would be accepted. The dues on cotton from
Hull to Hamburg amounted to 128 per cent. upon the
freight.
Mr. BRISCOE thought that the legality of the tolls
should be first ascertained.

Lord ASHLEY thought that the only way of getting
rid of these objectionable dues was by purchase. The
great evil lay in the delay and annoyance.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said that there was no disposi-
tion on the part of the Government to delay bringing
the question to a satisfactory conclusion. Not only on
account of the amount, but of other circumstances, it was
desirable that tine tax should be speedily pnt an end to.
Ho contended that there were many questions connected
with this subject besides that of legality, and that these
could only be properly decided by a committee.
Lord HOTS AM likewise advocated reference to a com.
mate° as the only way of forming a just conclusion.
Mr. J. L. RICARDO, in reply, said that he had not
much confidence in a committee. His facts had not been
refuted, and therefore his motion ought to have been
agreed to. Still, under the circumstances he had no
alternative except to accept the committee, before which
ho should prove all the facts he had advanced.
After a few words in explanation from Lord PALMER-
STON,
Mr. COWPER asked what would be the precise ques-
tion submitted to the committee ?
Mr. HENLEY said that all the facts of the case would
first be ascertained, after which the opinion of the law
of/corset* the Crown would be ascertained.

The motion was withdrawn, after an assurance from
Mr. HENLEY that the Government would propose a com-
mittee.

DESPATCH FROM INDIA.

The CHANOEaolioFti7;aclllCildiill.---Since the
house has been sitting this evening the Secretary of State
has received an important telegram from India, which per-
haps it may be agreeable to the house that I should read.
It is dated Malta' April 13th, and is addressed to Lord
Malnaesbury from Consul-General Reed. (The right hon.
gentleman here road the despatch announcing the capture
of Lucknow amidst loud cheers, which appears at length
in another column.)
RE WARDS TO MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.
Sir J. TREFAAWNY, in submitting the resolution of
which he had given notice, viz. : " That the receipt of any,
species of reward by a member, in consideration of the ex-
ercise of his influence in that capacity, is calculated to
lower the dignity and authority of this house, and ie a high
breach of the privilege of Parliament," said that though
the motion was unquestionably founded upon certain cir-
cumstances which bad recently formed the subject of an
investigation before a select committee of the house, and
the evidence adduced in the course of that inquiry, he did
not propose in any way to impugn the decision to which
that committee had come. He felt that a reform in Par-
liament was necessary as a reform of Parliament. Any pre-
cedent set in that house would be followed by other bodies
in the kingdom.

Lord HoTHA M said that in the opinion of the publio
such acts as those referred to in the resolution had been
committed in that house, and it was necessary to put an
end to that opinion. It was believed that lawyers who
were members of that house received on that account for
ordinary business larger fees than they would otherwise
receive. It was this imputation which he desired to see
destroyed. He thought that no member should be allowed
to interfere in that house in any matter in which ho was
personally interested.
Sir J. GRAHAM did not think that any new resolution
on the subject was requisite. Their present rules were
sufficient, although things were often done which came
close to their violation. Bat the publicity of the transac-
tion would b 3 a check on any flagrant abuse. Many mem-
bers of that house had been avowedly paid agents of the
colonies ; but as this was well known, no ill consequences
ensued. He feared that a new resolution would receive a
wrong construction from the public, and hoped that the
Present discussion would effect the purpose required.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD recommended that the mat-
ter should be left as it was, seeing the difficulty of framing
new resolutions.
Mr. MELLOR said that there was no difficulty in dis-
tinguishing between what was right in the offer made to
lawyers in that house, and what was proposed with a false
and fraudulent intention. He hoped the house would be
satisfied with the discussion. Still if the motion was
pressed he should vote for it.
Mr. R. MANGLES thought that the sense and opinion
of the house ought to be expressed in a manner which
could not be mistaken. Nothing short of this would pre-
vent natives of India from believing that members were
open to bribes.
Mr. W. J. FOX said that not only lawyers but members
interested in railways, and even in constituencies, suffered
their private interests to interfere with their conduct in
that house, He considered that the resolution would be
of great service.

fir. BRIGHT said that former resolutions had been
passed after a member has been found guilty. By passing
the resolution they would only be laying traps for them-
selves without doing any service to the purity of the
house. He opposed new resolutions made without specific
reasons.

Mr. WALPOLE said they should entirely separate the
consideration of the particular subject which had been re-
ferred to the late committee from the resolution before
them. If the hon. baronet intended by it to impeach the
conduct of the hon. member for Youghal, he ought to have
specifically mentioned him. Theycould not refer to the pro-
ceeding before the committee as having probably induced
this motion. The hon. baronet ought to tell them clearly
whether his object was to confirm an old or to establish a
new rule; if the latter was the object he (Ir. Walpole)
thought no such rule was necessary. If the object was to
confirm the old rule he would say the old rule of parlia-
ment was much better left in the breast of the house.
(Hear.) Any attempt to tie it up by new words would
only hamper their future course, and bring under it objects
to which it was never intended to apply. The discussion
had turned a good deal on the rules applicable to members
of the long robe—some rules applied to them, others to all
meruLers. The rule applicable to members of the long robe
was very old—the resolution of 166'6 was perfectly well
known. No member belonging to the legal profession
could be interested in any business pending in parliament,
or likely to be pending. So far was this carried that the
hon. member for Sheffield had been obliged to ask per-
mission to conduct the Sudbury Disfranchisement Bill be-
fcro the other house. Permission was granted, as it was
a public bill. Mr. Charles applied for permission to con-
duct a private bill, but was refused. The late Speaker
laid down the rule that such a permission might be granted
in case of a public bill but nut of a private one. Again,
the rule with regard to parliamentary agents had been
clearly laid down in the case of Mr. Daniel Whittle
Harvey. It was decided he could not transact any busi-
nce-,, or take any share in that of his partner. The rule
was perfectly clear as regarded professional men, and any
person transgressing it was amenable to the house. He
might be reprimanded, censured, or, in a grave case ex-
pel ed. There was no necessity for a new rule with regard
to the legal profession ; and if the resolution was intended
to apply to them they should have been •specially men-
tioned. With regard to the grave question as affecting
members in general, whether belonging to the legal pro-
fession or not, whether they were or ware not now re-
strained by the clearregulation of parliament from receiving
any reward of any sort or kind to influence the exercise of
their parliamentary duties. There was such a rule, and
there was exception to it from the oldest time down to
the present moment. In 1695 the house learned that
certain member., the Speaker amongst them, had
received a large sum of money for their services in
conducting the City of London Orphan Bill. The
house took no notice of the facts, expelled the Speaker,
Sir John Trevor (a gentleman of the long robe he was
sm ry to say), and Mr. Hunt, and reprimanded Mr. Guy.
What was their conduct with regard to the renewal of the
+et India Company's charter? It was ascertained that
10i,000/. had been distributed by the East India Company,
and that a large portion of it had come into the hands of
members. The house did not wait for a resolution, but
settled the matter by expelling some and censuring otherp,
and directed the impeachment of the Duke of Leeds. Ti
resolution of 1695, which was then adopted, did not apply,
and was not inten led to apply, to members, it was directed
against those who were beyond the house; it drew a dis-
tinction between the offer and the acceptance of the money.
The house knew it could deal with its own members.
There was no necessity for this resolution if it was intended
merely to confirm the old rule ; if it was to intro dues a
now one it would only hamper and fetter the house in the
exercise of its discretion on future occasions. It would be
much better to let the house be its own interpreter, and
deal with each particular case on its merits, rather than
hamper themselves with a set of words which would
give rise to a quibble whether any particular case came
'within them or not. He entertained a strong opinion that
beach particular case should be dealt with by itself. That
could be done much more effectually and more readily by
,the house when it arose, than by the adoption of a resolu-
aion which might or might not meet the particular case.
It, would be safer for the house to act on its knows. law

and usage than to introduce a new resolution, whieh was
too limited in one sense and too extended in another. It
was too limited, as it would not meet every case of corrup-
tion, and it was too extended as it would affect the case of a
member who received an honourable testimonial for his ser-
vices. It was not twelve months since an hon. gentleman
bad received such a testimonial ; and it was not many
years ago since an hon. gentleman not now in the
house had received a testimonial for his services in a
great cause. That was a most honourable tribute. (Hear,
hear.) This resolution, instead of checking corrrup-
tion, would put a stop to such honourable testimonials as
these. He trusted the hon. baronet would not press his
resolution, but would be content with the declaration
which he had elicited from all sides of the hoes., of their
determination to uphold its honour and dignity, and not
seek to fetter and cripple them with such a resolution.
Lord PALMERSTON thought that in any matter which
Concerned the honour of members of the house it was most
important that the regulation laid down should be clear
and precise ; a mere vague declaration in such a matter
would only become a trap for tender consciences, whilst it
was no restraint on others. He quite agreed that the rules
of Parliament, as now understood, were quite sufficient
for the purpose for which they were established ; but ho
thought the resolution nlw proposed was objectionable, on
account of the vagueness of the terms in which it was
couched. The objections urged by the hon. member for
Oldham were thought suilleient to make the Government
pause before they adopted such a resolution. If it bore
the extensive construction put upon it, there was really
hardly a function which any member could perform with
respect to any matter connected with his constituents
which would not subject him to the danger of infringing
it. He held as high as anybody could the necessity of
tintainiog the honour of members free from any impu.
tation of corruption, but ho was disposed to think that the
present regulation, wish the discretion which the house
must always possess of judging of the conduct of its mem-
bers, when that conduct came before them, afforded a era&
cient security for the integrity of members, whilst there
would be great danger in the vagueness of the resolution
now proposed. He thought the appeal made to his hon.
friend not to press the motion to a division was an appeal
which be would exercise a wise discretion in acceding to.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. TRELAWNY, in reply, said his resolution would
not apply to testimonials to members for past services.
The resolution of 1695 applied to the offer of a reward, he
wished to extend it to the acceptance. He regretted that
the hon. member for Birmingham had referred to the deci-
sion of the late committee. The hon. gentleman said it
was a direct acquittal. He (Sir J. Trelawny) could not so
consider it ; it was merely adirect negative of the allegation
contained in the petition. He contended the evidence
amply sustained the position he had maintained in his
opening statement. He had been actuated by no feeling
of malice—(hear, hear)—or mere ostentation in bringing
forward this motion. He warned the house that it was a
mistake to suppose that the public at large considered the
recent decision of the committee as a complete decision on
all the points raised, even on the evidence of the hon. mem-
ber for Youghal himself. As he believed the opinion of
the house was against a division, he would beg leave to
withdraw his motion. (Hear.)
The motion was then withdrawn.
THE IRISH JURY SYSTEM.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD obtained leave to introduce a
bill consolidating the laws relative to juries in Ireland.
The bill was subsequently introduced and read a first
time.

ENLISTMENT OF NEGROES.
Mr. LOWE rose to move an address for copy of all in-
structions for the engagement of natives of Africa in the
Indian service ; and for a return of the alterations in the
annual Mutiny Act which such engagements would render
necessary. He thought it most important that the precise
instructions furnished to officers to be employed on this
service should be published, in order to let it be seen that
every care had been taken to prevent the plan degenerating
into a species of slave trade. Ho should like also to be in-
formed of the grounds upon which the conclusion was
come to, that the Kroomen were convertible into good light troops. His motion also referred to the Mutiny Act,
for he was anxious to understand how the Mutiny Act
could be said to have anything to do with the matter ; if
these Kroomen were to be employed for naval purposes,
the naval Mutiny Act had been p seed once and for ever,
a, d therefore the alteration referred to by.a noble lord in
another place could not have had reference to that act ;
but if, on the other hand, they were to be enlisted for the
company'ssery ice, the Military Mutiny Act, not extending
to the forces of the company, no change in the act was re.
quired.
Mr. BAILLIE said it was quite clear that the right hon.
gentleman neither understood the Mutiny Act nor the rules
of Parliament. (Hear.) He was very much surprised that the
right hon. gentleman, who he believed was a lawyer, should
have put such a notice on the paper. He asked for " a return
of the alterations in th© Mutiny Act which such arrange-
ments would have rendered necessary ;" is fact, for a return
of alterations whieh had never been made, and which, in
fact, could not have been made at the time. It was plain that
the right hon. gentleman had never read the Mutiny Act. It
gave authority to enlist and attest recruits in different parts
of the world for her Majesty's service, but it gave no such
authority to the East India Company, and the alteration, if
it could have been made, would have been to give this power
to the East India Company. As regarded the instrueti ne,
the right hon. gentleman should not only have them, but
something more, It would be impossible to understand these
ins ructions without having all the papers relating to the
matter, and ho should, therefore, move as an addition to the
right hon. gentleman's motion, for copies of all letters re-
ceived from Mr. Spence relative to the enlistment of Kroo-
men ; of the memorandum of an interview between the Di-
rectors of the East India Company and Mr. Spence ; and of
all subsequent correspondence on the subject, and for the
memorandum of the amendment required in the Mutiny Act
to enable the East India Company to enlist recruits in the
same manner as her Majesty, (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON —I quite agree in the opinion which
seems to have been entertained by her Majesty'. Government
that it would have been desirable to enlist a negro force for
employment in India. I believe it would have been an expe-
dient arrangement, and I know that that is the opinion of the
Governor-General. They would be exceedingly useful, they
would stand the climate better than Europeans, and would be
free from those objections which applied to native Indian troops
in respect to their peculiar feelings of caste. The difficulty
would he haw to raise a black fore, without giving any in
direct encouragement to a renewal of the slave trade, and I
presume that was the view taken by the Government on this
matter. Ido not know that it was likely we should have
been able to obtain any efficient troops from that coast, for
so far as the information which I have received gees these
Kroomen are generally seafaring men, and are not willing to
Ifyot.
not be from
home.likely tong.
andr r absence
would
no
gage for service in India. Neither my right hon, friend nor
take more
short than
voyages, a tem temporary
myself wish to imply any objection to the principle of raising
black troops for India if proper means had been taken for that
will only
purpose ; what we wish to impress upon the house is that in
raising such a force great care should be taken that no means
be employed which will have the effect of indirectly renewing
the slave trade, (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER I cannot pre-
tend to give any opinion on the capabilities of the Kroomen,
because, though I have had the advantage of recently con-
versing with two gentlemen who have had great personal ex-
perience of the country in which this particular section of
the human race resides, their accounts were unfortunately
very much opposed to each other. (Laughter.) The one
told me that they were a race admirably adapted for naval
warfare; the other that their capital punishment was shoot-
ing with the rifle. One told me that they were perfectly
willing to quit their country for any length of time ; the
other that they could be relied on only for a very short time.
My noble friend at the head of the Board of Control has in
this matter been actuated solely by a feeling of public spirit,
and by a desire to omit no opportunity at a moment of exi-
gency of obtain;ng resources for carrying on the war in whioh
we are engaged in India, and which, from the news we have
received to-night, will, I trust, soon be brought to a success-
ful termination. The noble lord may be perfectly certain
that, however desirous we may have been to raise a black
force for service in India, we should avoid everything which
could in the slightest degree have the appearance even of re-
newing that slave trade which this country has made such
immense sacrifices to put down. The tone of the noble lord
requires no comment, and he has taken a very fair view of
the matter. (Hear.) I think the Secretary of the Board of
Control has made a perfectly sufficient and satisfactory
answer to the observations of the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Lowe), whose tone cert-dnly did not resemble that of the
noble lord, (Hear, hear.)
General THOMPSON believed it was every man's duty to
throw light upon a matter, however insignificant, It was his
misfortune in his time to be a commandant of Kroomen,
and to see something of their qualities. It was his belief
that, unless they were greatly altered, no Krooman ever hit
a mark yet. (Laughter,) He once ordered a field-day of
Kroomen. There was some expectation of an attack by
the natives of the interior. The Kroomen were his baro-
meters—the most timid race in the world. He always
knew there was some danger from the interior when the
Kroomen were buying fowling-pieces. He thought he would
try what use they would make of them, so he had them drawn
up in a loose sort of line, which our ancestors would have
called "a very fil hy line." One at a time ran out in front
al out 30 yards, fired his fowling-piece, and then, like a
prudent man, turned his face to the rear, and ran back
again. (Laughter.) He could not believe but there had been
some desire to pass a joke upon the Goveinment. It was just
as reasonable to propose that a regiment of cuirassiers eh. uld
be raised out of shoemen because of their peculiar adaptation
to the prcelium, aquitatuns, as that Kroomen should be made
into a rifle brigade, (Laughter.)
Mr. LOWE said, he had been rep, ehended by the Secretary
to the Board of Control for his ignorance of Parliamentary
practice, because he said that a bill when it stood for a third
reading should he recommitted and amendments introduced.
He reasserted that statement. By a recent order the house
had given up its power of amending bills subst.intially on a
third reading, but they could recommit a bill and place it for
a third reading on a future day. It might not have been
worth while to mention it but for the unmerited contradiction
of the hon. gentleman.

The original motion was withdrawn, and the motion of the
Secretary to the Board of Control was agreed to,
The report of the Committee of Supply was brought up and
agreed to.

CUSTOMS' DUTIES BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
The house adjourned at a few minutes bawl 10 o'clock.

BIRTHS.

BE C;CII—On the 9th inst., at Blackheath-park, the wife of
William Philip Beech, of a daughter.
NORBORY—On the 11th inst. at Sherridge House, near
Malvern, the Hon. Mrs. Norbury, of a daughter.
ROSENBERG —On the tith inst., at Dresden, the Baroness
0. G. You Rosenberg, of a son.

MARRIAGES.
CHEFFINS—CRAVEN—On the 13th inst., at St. Andrew's,
Holborn, Charles Richard Cheffins, of Southampton-
buildings, and Bridge-road, St. John's-wood, to Mary
Ann, youngest daughter of Joshua Craven, EN of
Prospect-houso, Thornton Bradford, Yorkshire.
SMITH LEACH —On the 13th inst., at St. James's,
Paddington, by the Rev. R. W. Fitzpatrick, M.A.,
William Henry Smith, jun., Esq , only son of W. 11.
Smith, Esq., of 27, Glocester-square, Hyde-park, to
Emily, relict of the late Benjn. A über Leach, Esq., and
eldest daughter of Frederick Dawes Danvers, Esq.
DEATHS.
BATTIER—On the 12th inst., at Morden College, Black.
heath, Mr. Charles Battier, Esq , aged 80.
BLACKET--O❑ the 1 ith inst., Anne, wife of Mr. John
Blacket, of Brixton-hill, and late of the Ward of Far•
ringdon Without, aged 80.
COBDEN—A t Dunford, Midhurst, Frederic W. Cobden,
Esq., aged 58,

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