The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ELOUSE OF LORDS.-....(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
M 5 o'clock.
Lord BELPER presented petitions from Atherstone,
Sherborne, Derby, Glossop, Thropiton, and Kirkby, in
favour of the legalization of marriage with a deceased
wife's sister.
The Doke of RICHMOND present e I a petition from
places in Aberdeen, against the fis,ion of the colleges as
proposed in the Scotch Universities Bill.
PRIVATE BUSIN
On the motion of Lord REDESDALZ the Manchester
South Junction and Altrincham Railway (No. 2) ; the
Warrington and Stockport Railway ; Limerick and
Castle Connell Railway hills were read a second time.
The Hesketh Marsh, North Yorkshire and Cleveland
Rail way. London and North-ostern ElAilway (Addi-
and
tional Works). St. Leonard's (WShoreditcb) Parish,
Stockton and Middlesborough, and Yarns Water Bills,
were read a third time and passed.
THE EX-KING OF OIJDE.
The Marquii of CLANRICARDE asked whether
the statement by the President of the Board of Control
in the Souse of Commons, that the ex-King of Oude
was now a prisoner in Fort William, and was about to
be broucbt to trial, was correctly stated.
Earl DERBY said the answer given in the other
house to the question was not altogether incorrectly re-
ported. The King of °ult., a prisoner of the East
ladia Company, was now confined at Calcut'a,
under suspicion of having promoted the revolt. Upon
the result of the investigation—which would be a more
correct term than criminal trial—as to how tar he might
be implicated in the revelf., would depend the nature of
the measures to be adopted against him.
CHESTER AND HOLYHEAD RAILWAY.

facilities of continunicAtion which now existed between
this country and India. He would therefore keep the
government of India out of Parliament as fir as possible.
(Hear, hear.) But t'.is measure wouli really diminish
the responsibility of the Indian Minister, because he
would be fettered by the existence and by the control of
his council. If the Secretary of State was outvoted in the
Council on some question or plan of Indian government,
he wouli, in stating the plan in the House of Commons,
indicate to his friends that though he was moving the
~.

This bill wag read a third time after a few words from
Lora COLCHIMER, who said the three companies
bad undertaken the contract for the conveyance of the
wails to Dublin for a term of 14 years, and Lord
REDEEMALE who said he was not altogether satisfied that
the right4of the public had been sufficient'y protected
by this bill, but as the noble lord the Postmaster-Gene-
ral had moved the third reading he did not ftel justified

Plan, it was not his—that he was overruled in the Coun •
cll. (Hear, bear.) Tne C)uncil might obj et to the Stcre•
tary of State taking matters out of their cognisance.
That had been said to him when at the Board of Con-

trol ♦ery frequently ; and what was his answer —" I
don't think so ; you are quite wrong." (Laughter.) There
was civility on both Rider., and there was an end of it.
But that would not be the case no-v with these gentle-

men, who had their friends in Parliament, in the City,
and everywhere. (Hear.) If this bill passed it would
create that form of government which bad been con-
demned by all authorities on government—an imperittin
in imperio. (Hear, hear) Though the members of the
Council themselves might net sit in Parliament, there
was nothing to prevent their sons, or sone-in-law, or
fathers-in-law from doing so. (A laugh.) For the 15 who
could not sit there might be 30 nearly connected with
them who could sit in Parliament, and could do the
work better than themselves. The more they consi-
dered this scheme the less likely did it appear to hold
together. He did not say that he was sure it would
fail. He did not want it to fail. It wag adangerous thing
to prophesy about what was to happen to-morrow or
at home. It was a safer course to predict what was to
happen in 100 years, or in Armenia or some distant part
of the world. (A laugh.) All he said was that if the
measure did succeed, it would succeed against the ex-
perience of all the men be had ever heard talk on the
subject, against the experience of the country, and
against their lordship? experience with reference to other
matters. It was said, "Would you trust one man with
the Government of 180 millions of people ?" Why,
they trusted the noble earl (Derby) with the Govern-
ment of a great many more than 130 millions ; one man
was responsible for the government of the whole empire.
(Hear, hear.) He selected his Cabinet on that prin-
ciple ;so would the Secretary of State for India. It
there was anything which the Prime Minister could not
settle offhand the Cabinet would be assembled. He
(Lord Broughton) would rather trust one intelligent,
honest man with the management of affairs with which
be had been previously properly acquainted,. than be
would trust half-a-dosen men. The Secretary of Sate
woad have no difficulty in getting a staff about him.
He might easily get a sufficient number to advise and
assist, not to thwart him, but to give opinions ; in this
way, if a proper choice were made of the secretary, the
government of India would be conducted as well as
human prudence could devise. (Hear, hear.) The
notion of the necessity of a Council had arisen from the
functions of the old Court cf Directors. Did their lord-
ships think-the despatches were written by the Court of
Directors or any of them 1 When he was at the B )ard
of Control they always recognised certain hands, and
knew, or thought they knew, who wrote each of the
despatches, as well as if they had stood behind the gen-
tleman's chair while he was doing it. It was one of the
great merits of the Court of Directors which ought to be
recorded and never forgotten, that they chose good ser•
rants and wise servants. (Hear, hear.) Did their lord-
ships ever know a foolish person choose wise servants ?
Never. The servants of the court were as good men as
were ever found for the performance of their functions,
and those men were available now. Mr. John Mill
was alive—(hears hear)—so were many others ;
he mentioned Mr. Mill because he was a well-
known and distinguished man. (Hear.) There were
others at the Board of Control whose assistance would
be most valuable. Upon great questions of peace or war,
the Secretary of State would of course summon his
Cabinet, and take their opinions and advice. He would
ask how matters were conducted at the Board of Ad-
miralty 1 He had been toid that the experiment had
been tried of conduetiog all the business by a board in-
stead of by the first lord ; but when they met they fell
asleep. Sometimes one man did not agree with the first
lord, and threatened to talk him out. (Laughter.) There
was such a thing, he believed, as the Treasury Board ;
he should like to know bow often that board met. They
might do seroccasionally ; but he was told that it was
not a real, consultative, deliberative board. If the
Treasury did not require a board, why should the Secre-
tary of India require one! Surely, if anybody needed
others to share his responsibility, the master of the
British dominions for the time being, the le-st Lord of
the Treasury, must do so. It was certain that the Sscre-
tary of State for India riever would derive from such a
council as the bill proposed any light or knowledge that
he could not get from others, without the embarrassment
of a deliberative council. He entreated the noble earl
(Derby) to reconsider this question, if there was any
chance of doing eo. It was perpetuating the worst part
of the old East India Company. The proposed council
would be like the phosaix, that
"Soared and shined, another and the same."

in opposing the measure.
CON VOCATION.
Lord REDESDALE moved for copies of the Acts of
Convocation in the province of Canterbury at the session
cf the 29th. of June, 1855, and 6th of Feb., 1857, so far
as relates to any communication to be made to the
C 'avocation of York, or the President of the same, to-
gether with the replies to such communication., or
either of them. Also a copy of the Quen's writ to the
Archbishop of York, directing the assembling of the
Convocation of the province on the 10th of December
lest.
The Bishop of RIPON said he had been appointed
by the prelates of the province of York to offer
some explanation .on the subject to which the noble
lord bad referred. He denied that any com-
munication had taken place between the prelates
cf the two provinces between .Tune, 1855, and Feb.
1857. He bad no objection also to the production of
the Queen's writ, but he was at a loss to con-
ceive what object there was in view in obtaining
its production, except that it was to raise the whole
question as to how far the Archbishop of York was jus-
tified in the course he had persevered in with respect to
the convocation at York.
The Bishop of LONDON said the noble lord de-
manded papers that did not and never had existed. In
the drawing up of the first part of the noble lord's mo •
tion, although he did not believe such to be his intention,
it appeared to cast a slur upon a right reverend prelate,
who was pursuing his labours in a strictly correct man-
ner, and who had not departed in the slightest from
numerous precedents which existed on the point.
After a few words from the Bishops of Oxford, Carlisle,
and Chichester,
Lord REDESDALE withdrew his motion.
REVISION OF THE LITURGY.

Lord EMMY presented a petition from the laity in
favour of a revision of the Liturgy.
The Medical Practitioners Bill was read a second time.
The Stipendiary Magistrates Bill was read a second

time.
The Oopybold Acts Amendment Bill was read a
second time.
The Titles to Land (Scotland) Bill, the- Copyright of
Designs Bill, and the Four Courts (Dublin) Extension
Bill were severally read a second time.
The New General Post-office (Edinburgh) Bill went
through committee.
The Militia Ballots Suspension Bill was read a second
time.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
On clause seven, which refers to the constitution o
the Council,
Lord BROUGHTON said that this clause was of the
essence of the bill. He rejoiced at the abolition of the
East India Company, and thought that the proposition
to have a single Minister to administer the government
of India would be a good substitute for the present sys-
tem. He collected from the speech of his noble friend
last night, that a great change had taken place in his
opinion, in reference 10 the appointment of a Council,
and that he might modify this clause if he had to propose
the scheme again to the house. The present form of
home Government was no doubt liable to obj-ctions of
se 'welt every man must be aware, on the ground ut delay,
and differences of opinion, between the authorities of
Cannon-row and Leadenhall-street. The shots they fired
at each other, however. were sped from a distance, and
were cooled by time. But when this new Council was
.formed what would be the degree of antagonism—and
-antagonism there must be if the Council was to be of any
good—when they met under the same roof and at the
same board, and bad to fire across the table ? (Laughter.)
-Unless some means could be devised for making this
Council, he would not say a little more peaceable, but
at all events a little more practical, their lordships should
not pass this clause. He was sure of that. He was op-
posed to acy Council at all ; but if be were for a Council
it would not be for this Council, which was constructed
in a manner that was calculated to ensure the greatest
quantity of strife and difference of opinion. (Hear.)
Some of the members were to be East Indian - ervants—
some were to be chosen by the Crown, and some not.
He did not see how the objection of the noble earl oppo-
site (E:lenborougb) was to be got rid of, when it pleased
God to remove any of the members, and the Council had
to be refreshed. The Secretary of Sore woul f probably
be a person who entertained some general principles of
government, such principles as were likely to be enter-
tained by a person reared amongA the institutions of this
country. But when he proposed some scheme to the
Council for the government of India, the member of the
Council acquainted with Bengal would i ay, "This won't
do at all for Bengal ; I know more about Bengal than
you." The members who were acquainted with Ma tras
and Bombay would say the same, and there would be
the Secretary of State alone in the midst of these gen•
thonen, every one of whom would be better acquainted
with India. than himself. (Hear, hear.) Those who were
acquamted with the system of Indian government must
be aware that the great vice of Indian servants was that
of making what were called rninutes—minuses which it
took hours to read and- days to write. (Laughter.) Sup-
pose a member of the Connell to be in a minority, he
would record his objeotions in a minute. He would not
be satisfied, and would proceed thus. He would seek out
some member of Parliament and say, " I am in a mino-
rity in the CJancil on such a question ; most good men
are—(laughter)—the case is a good one ; I can kelp you
if you like to make a speech. (Laughter.) I wrote a
minute of My objections ; Mr. S9-snd-so says it is one of
the cleverest he ever read." (Laughter.) The member
was ambitions—most members used to be, he did not
know if they were new—(laughter)—and be replied,
" Wi.l you let me have it." The member of Council sap
" No,• I cannot ; but it is a clever document, take my
word f a it ; ask in your place for a copy." Toe Govern
ment of the day would be obliged to say, " We cannot
refuse this minute. Under a Parliamentary Government
the opinions of the minority should be known at least, if
not acted upon." Tne document was produced, it was
read, it was cl ver ; it was submitted to Sir J. Graham,
or some of those clever fellows in the house— (laughter)
—and be was asked what was to be done, fur the case

The Earl of DERBY said tbak the noble lord had
made a very amusing speech, and if it had been made on
the second reading of the bill ne owe would have said a
word against it.
Lord BROUG EITON —This clause is about the council?
The Earl of DERRY—Bat they were now discussaing
the bill clause by clause, and it was contrary to all order,
',pm a clause which constituted the tiottacil,, to discuss
everything relating to that council. This was entirely be-
si le the question, which was whether a council should be
established for the advice and assistance of the Secretary
of State. The noble lord had said that because the Trea-
sury Board acd the Board of Admiralty did not meet as
boards, there was no reason why the Secretary of
State for India should have a Council to assist him. But
the Council proposed was upon a totally different footing
from any of the boards ref,rred to. The Secretary of
State would allot the business among the different mem-
bers in such a manner as be thought most convenient for
the public service. (Hear, hear.) Special power was '
given to the Secretary of State to divide the Council into
committees for the despatch of business, and to obtain the
assi Lance and advice of the most competent persons. The
questions of how the Council was to be constituted, what
should be its duties and so on, would be discussed on the
different clauses; but the question raised by the noble lord
was—should the Secretary of State have a Council at
all. It was true this was a main principle of the bill ; and
if upon one question more than another there had been
a universal agreement in both houses, it was this—that
it was expedient that the Minister for India should be as-
si,ted by such a Council to a certain d-gree.-The bill of
the late Government proposed a Council ef eight mem-
bers, to set ve for 10 years. By the bill introduced when
Lord Ellenborough was at the B card of Control the Coun-
cil was to consist of 18 members; they would of coulee
have divided their duties. But that the Secretary of State
for India should have the means of resorting, net unoffi-
cially but officially, to persons of great experience and
knowledge on all subjects connected with India was a
principle that had been adapted and laid down by almost
all me 1 of any eminence who bad been called on to dis-
cuss the question. He wholly denies! that this Council
was a recurrence, or anything like a recurrence, to the
double Government which had existed under the former
system. The evil of that double Government was this—
that there were two separate and entirely distinct au' ho-
cities, each of which ficpre,sed an independent opinion
--that these authorities wore frequently brought into
coefict or collision—and that it required voluminous
correspondence and a great deal ef time to settle their
differences and obtain their entire concurrence and con-
sent. Here there was no such doable Government, no such
conflict of authorities. The Council was not an authority
adverse to or competing with the Secretary ef State. Its
duties were precise and limited ; they were limited, ex-
cspt in particular cases, to giving advice and opinion to
the Secretary of State ; and that advice and opinion he
was at liberty to adopt or reject as he thought fit. There
was nothing to fetter or diminish in the slightest degree
the responsibility which he owed to Parliament, He
agreed with the nob'e lord that it was desirable in prac-
tice that the aff sirs of India should, as far as pos-ibte,
be withdra en from the we' kly and daily discussion in
Parliament; and the most probable way of doing that
was to surround the S-cretary of State with a body of
persons of eminence and distinction, of knowledge and
experience, to whom with reeard to every question he
had it in his power to apply, not for authority, but for
opinion
perfect and that advice and opinion would
r
knowledge-of-ilie subject. Tile
advice vii
iciefTi and
w i
twith
a
principle of council or no council was all that was in-
volved in this clause ; upon that principle rested the
main provieions of the bill ; and he trusted that their
lordships would not reject a clause which had been
almest unanimously agreed to by the other house, and
a principle which had the sanction of every authority.
The Duke of SOMERSET said they might properly
discuss the question of council or no ceuncil on the
clause now before the committee. He denied that the
scheme of a council bed been approved by
all partied- In
the other house there had been every sort of opinion as
to the constitution t,f the council—how they were to be
anpeinted—how long they were to . serve—and what
should be their duties. (Hear.) It was proposed that
the council should meet weekly, or when summoned by
the Secretary of State, though he believed the latter
power was now taken away. It was doubtful whether
they would see any of the despatches that came from
India, and the Secretary of State might avoid basing
anything to do with them. He might give an order
which might lead to war ; but to obtain money he must
go to his council, and bow could he obtain money with-
out telling them what it was for t (Hear.) The remit of
dividing the council into committees would
f r uf
uld,bietohrnaio
that each
c antnittee would be continually din
respecting its own department, as they might be called
on to advise at the next meeting of the council. He ob-
jected to the provision which debarred tho members of
the Council from sitting in Parliament. Their presence
there might be desirable on those occasions when some
' independent member of the other house took up with
great zeal the cause of some native prince. Suppo-e that
Sir Colin Campbell returned, as he hoped he wouid,and
made a statement as to the organisation of the Indian
arm, what weight would the members of the C trticil—a
number of old men—have against such an authority as
that I He thought it would be a great convenierce if
they could get rid of this Council, and all the clauses
connected with it, (Hear, hear) The House of Com-
mons had passed the bill with the idea that they were
making the Secretary cf State responsible ; but when-
et,
the
oee rwe
al; i
essence
nwu
claein
(tt, ehf det
there
ee o
ben
billy
d, hi
wveii
dtwheadosu ctnol na nt raogl
el
divided emd e boryte,stphwoenh Csi
70bhuani,tvcyai l
5,..
The bill would work with much greater vigour if all tne
clauses relating to the Council were struck out. He
would therefore move that this clause should be omitted
from the bill.
Ritilt.uEtioanlsoof
wohhea'etewteedretcoaltlehde
, c ilultneeicEeagrolecoif4Ay LtoßiEtslscloA.n
„ Ow Indiana." These were men who had always,
in and out of Parliament, declared that system to be
perfection which hid exploded iu rebellion. He did not

was a bard one. He said, " Make a motion, and we will
see what we can do." A meeting of some 20 members
took pLaceeein some- house or other--it might be the
Crown and Anchor; the posts were assigned to eacl3
" you are to bring forward this paint, you this, and so
on. Do not abuse the Governor-General, for he is my
friend ; but abuse the S.cretary of State ; he is an un-
fair man, and he is not of our party ; abuse him."
(Laughter.) Ha could assure their lordship he was not
exaggerating what was a very possible case. He agreed
with the noble lord opposite that this might not occur
in the first Council. The first members would probably
meet with general approbation, and things would go on
smoothly for a time ; but that would not continue—it
could not continue. Did any one ever find 15 men in a
room even at a party of pleasure svho agreed altogether?
(Laughter.) If out of the 15 there was one disagreeable
man be would spoil the whole party. (Laughter.) That
happened in matters of amusement. But what might be
the consequence if, when matters of government, when
the best interests of the country were depending on the
result? What was vulgarly hut well called an " ill-condi-
tioned" fellow got amongst the par ty.r (Hear.) The conse-
quencs would probably be this. One member of the
Council would.say, " You cannot agree with use, 1 can-
not agree with you; no one can agree with that fellow,
let us band over the decision to the Secretary of State."
That must be the only mode of settlement, or nothing
would be done, (Hear, hear.) These inconveniences
were so entirely felt by the framers of this bill that they
had most judiciously deprived the Council of a great
part of its power?, for they gave the Secretary of State
power to act without the Council in some cases, and by
the 25th clause they empowered him to act even against
the Council. (Hear, hear.) That was wise and proper if
there was to be a Council at all. The effects of a bad
plan and a bad project might be got rid of by having no
project or plan at all.
The great objection made to the
existing system was what was calved its double govern-
ment. Now, there was no double goverrenent in the
present system, unless a man riding on horseback, with
au old woman behind him, might be called a double
government. (Laughter )
The Earl of DERBY—Which was the old woman?
Laughter.)
Lord BROUGHTON—Nut the noble earl, certainly.
(Laughter.) This so called double government was no
double government. But the double government was
brought back by this bill. One of the great inconve
niences r f the present system was said to be thie, that
Parliamentcould not interfere as much in the government
of India as it could ;f there was a single responsible
Minister. Now, be thought that one of the great ad-
vantages of the present syeteru was that it prevented the
perpetual introduction of Indian questions in Parliament.
(Rev) Ihat wee hie decided opinion. They could not
govern India on thebe terms, espeoially Rich theilicreased

altogether share in the panegyrics which had been be-
stowed upon the Board of Directors ; but, at all events,
they-had not selected old Indians for their servants.
Many years ago Lord Buckinghamshire found the direc-
tors could not write their deqpatches, and it was at his
su,lgestion that the "examiners" had been appoiet-d, by
whom the government of India had ever since been vir-
tuelly carried on. (Hear, hear.) What wag an old Indian?
It was a person who had a great knowledge of a very
small locality, who knew very little about the rest of
India, and was altogether ignorant of European politico.
It was the very want of the Europern element in the
, government of India which had led to our recent disas-
ters. The old Indians by whom affairs were conducted
had never been 50 miles out of Calcutta in their lives,
and they thought the rest of the Indian people were like
those docile creatures by whom they were surrounded.
They had, therefore, madly attempted to strip the pro-
prietors of the north-western provinces of their lands,
and the country had had to deplore the result. For this
reason alone he (the noble eari) felt that he was fully
entitled to vote for he amendment. (Cheers.)
Lord MONTEAGLE objected greatly to the exclusion
of members of the council from Parliament. As uming,
what was certainly a great deal to allow, tbat the couc-
eill re would all be the best men tbat could be selected,
the very success which attended the efforts to create a
good council would deprive Parliament of the 15 men
who would best be able to guide its deliberations on In-
dian affairs. (Hear.) Noble lords near him seemed to
be so overcome by the difficul iee they had to encounter,
that they had actually been driven to recommend a sys-
tem of despotism for the government of our Eastern em-
pire. The house must not suppose that the use of a
board was merely to sit as a body. The business might
be distributed amongst its members, and in that manner
it might be admirably performed. (Hear,) Besides,
they must remember that they were not dealing with a
department, but with a great empire ; and the compari-
sons which had been made had, therefore, no foundation
at all. What was now proposed by the noble duke was,
that one official should unite in his own person the func-
tions of a financial, a war, a domestic, and a f .reign
minister. The idea seemed to him (Lord Monteagle) to
be absurd. (Hear.) The noble earl had talked dispa-
ragingly of old Indians ; but what was the complaint
they made against the company in 183? Why, that it
did not elect old Indians for its directors ; but chose to
confer the honour upon city magnates, great bankers,
and gentlemen of that description. What would their
lordships not give to have an old Indian like Mount-
, stuart Elpbinatone, or -the late Sir Thomas Monroe
amongst them that evening I Let them, therefore, hear
no more of the cry against old Indians. (Hear.) He
confessed that lie felt some alarm when he heard this new
doctrine of government by a Secretary of State. He was
for a council—a council partly nominated and partly
chosen by election. He saw otherwise no resource but
a despotism, and the idea of a despotism drove him to
Parliamentary interference, which he was satisfied was
fraught with still greater dangers to the peace and secu-
rity of our Indian possessions. (Hear.)
Lord WODEHOUSE said the bill was neither more
nor lees than a co nprotnise between those who were for
a controlling Council and those who were for an absolute
Minister. The clauses of the bill negatived each other
on that principle. The practical result would be a bar-
renness of power, and that would lead to a want of power,-
which practically was the greatest evil- that should be
guarded against. In that counterbalance of power they
would neither have an efficient council nor an efficient

profession, from which any gain or profit may arise."
The Earl of HARDWICKE supported the clause as
it stood.
After a short conversation the house divided, when
there appeared—
For the amendment• 35
Against GO
Majority —2s
The clause was then agreed to, as were the clauses up
to 20.
Clauses 18 to 26 were agreed to with some verbal
amendments,
On clause 27, which relates to the sending out of secret
despat chee,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that it bad
always been the practice for these despatches to be com-
municated to three persons—the chairman of the lona
of Directors, the deputy-chairman, and one other direc-
tor. He thought they ought at least to be communicated
to one person.
The Earl of DERBY promised that an alteration to
this effect should be made in bringing up the report.
Earl GRANVILLE did not think that any further
check was necessary, as on all important matters the
Indian Minster would c)mmunicate with the Cabinet
of which he was a member.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE was in favour of the al-
teration proposed by Lord Ellenborough.
The clause was agreed to, as was clause 28.
Oa clause 29,
Earl GRANVILLE suggested that the Governor-
General should retain the power of appointing his own
C mncil.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that what the
Governor-General wanted was a representative Council.
The Earl of DERBY promised to reconsider the
question.
Clauses 30 and 31 were agreed to.
On clause 33,
The Bishop of OXFORD moved a proviso vesting the
right of nominating to the chaplaincies in India in
future alternately in the Secretary of State for India
audio the bishop of the diocese in which the chaplaincy
is situated.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH bore testimony to
the excellence of the clergy in India ; and he saw no
reaeon for altering the p-esent system, for he could place
suite as much confidence in a Secretary of State as in the
Board of Directors.
The Bishop of. LONDON supported the amendment.
In point of fact the clause as it stood created the greatest
possible change, for it transferred to the Secretary of
State the appointment of all the chaplains, whereas the
Government had never yet had any such patronage.
While anxious to respect the rights of our heathen fel-
low-subjects, he should be glad to see some recognition
of our own religion in the present bill.
The Earl of DERBY thought it would be better to
preserve the present status of the Indian chaplains,
:namely, as mere stipendiaries of the Indian CI ,vernment.
great inconvenience had been felt, both at the Foreign
and the Ooibnia'l,ofilte;'•from distant chaplains being de-
pendent on their bishop, and from there being thus a
conflict of authorities.
The Bishop of OXFORD, in reply, said that in the
cases referred to the chaplains were dependent not on
bishops upon the spot, but on a bishop in this country.
He did not see, therefore, that there was any ground for
the argument of the noble earl.
The amendment was nevertheless not persisted in, and
the clause was agreed to.
The CHAIRMIN then reported progress, two or three
bills were advanced a stage, and their lordships rose at
half past 12.

Minister.
Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE was not pre-
pared to vote for the exclusion of the Council altogether,
nor was he, on the other hand, prepared to go to the full
extent of the bill. With respect to the number of the
Council, he thought-that a Council of five or seven would
be much more effective than so large a number.
Lord ASHBURTON said that the want of security
that any particular line of policy on the part of the East
India Company would be permanently pursued had ope-
rated very injuriously on the minds of the native princes
and the people of India. As the Government had en.
croached continually upon the powers of the East India
Company, the cerapany had set themselves with all their
hearts to secure the services of the ablest men to aid
them in maintaining their position, and hence the dis-
tinguished ability by which the servants of the India
Company had almost uniformly been characterised ; but
be contended that when this new Council wasestablished
a new department would be created differing in no ma-
terial point from the Home-office or any other public
department, and the abilities of its officials, conse-
quently, could not reasonably be expected, under the
circumstances, to be superior to the abilities of the offi-
cials of the Home-office, or of any other public depart-
ment now in existence.
Lord BEEPER, in defence of the Council, said it
would be monstrous to entrust the, whole affairs of India
to the Secretary of State—a single member who knew
little or nothing practically of Indian affa'rs. He ap-
proved of there being a Council whom the Secretary was
bound to consult—men of intelligence and of practical
experience in India—but he would leave the ultimate deci-
sion of matters in the bands of the Minister, checked by
his responsibility to Parliament, and by the record of
the minutes of members of the council who dissented
from his acts.
Earl GRANVILLE made some explanations in rela-
tion to a former speech. He stated that although he.
, personally objected to a council, he would nevertheless
advise his noble friend not to press this matter to is divi-
sion, and he would also advise the Government not. to •
send back the bill to the other house without the oeun-
cil, as it was a point of the-highest importance that. thee
bill should be passed this session.
The Marquis of CLANRICARNE said he did not
doubt that the Secretary of State would be provided with
an efficient staff, but he thought the Government had
not sufficiently informed the house as to what they ex-
pected would be the result of the working of the arrange-
ment. He could not expect that it would long last on
its present footing, but in order to make it last a little
longer he should wove to insert in the clause the words
"not wore than," which would make 15 the maximum,
and allow the council to be reduced as vacancies occurred.
The Ferri of DERBY said that the number of 15 had
been proposed by the Government simply because they
were assured that that was the smallest number that
could execute the functions that would devolve upon it.
If the amendment of the noble marquis were adopted it
would utterly prevent any subsequent modification of
the arrangement. It would be far better to leave the mat-
ter to the future deliberation of Parliament, for which
there was a provision, and he hoped the noble marquis
would not persist in an opposition which was really
directed as much against the measure of the Govern-
ment of which he was a member as against that under
consideration.
The amendment was negatived without a division,
and the clause agreed to.
On clause 8, relative to the nominative members,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII observed that the
average age of the members of the council weull be
60 years, making 900 years for the whole. He did not see
why men five or six years older should not be elected by
them, as the past directors of the company would be. Ile
heard there was an advantage in putting wine in a cellar
for five or siz ye?rs, but he did not think the principle
applied in the case of an old man being put on the shelf,
with a view to hie returning to business.
The clause was agreed to.
0' clause I,
Tae E trl of DERBY said he should be willing to in-
troduce a clause into the bill for the purpose of main-
taining the balance between the elective and nominative
member..
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 10,
The Rid Of SHAFTESBURY moved an amendment
to the effect that the members of council should not only
be men of Indian experience, but that they should have
returned from India during the last ten years.
The clause was agreed to.
Oa clause 11 beine proposed,
The Eirl of ECIANBOROUGH objected to the
clause, as it appointed gentlemen to the Council for life.
The effect of this would be, that not one of these gentle-
men would resign at the end of ten years, at which period
the members of the Council were entitled to pensions,
for the purpose of inducing any one of them who had be-
come incapable to resign, but he was sure that not one
of them would resign at the end of ten veers. (A laugh.)
He therefore suggested that the periOd should be five
years when those gentlemen could re, ign.
The Earl of DERBY sail it was usual to appoint
gentlemen to political offices during good behaviour, and
he thought that, practically, a gentleman entitled to—re-
sign upon a pension at the end of a given period would
be induced to do so if he f 'tend himself incapable for the
performance of his duties.
Earl GRANVILLE supported the suggestion of the
noble earl opposite (*he Earl of Ellephorough).
After a few words from Lord DENuaN, the clause was
agreed to.
On clause 12 being proposed,
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said that if they passed
this chime by. which persons who were to be appointed
, members of the Council would be e*eluded from seats in
, Parliament, they would practically exclude some of the
most efficient persons from the Council. By it Lord
Dalhousie, Sir C. Campbell—who no doubt would be
raised to the peerage—and Ruch like persons, would he
ineligible to seats at the Council. He begged, therefore,
to propose that three of the members should be eligible
to seats in Parliament.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE hoped the noble earl at
the head of the Government would concede the princip'e of
his noble friend's amendment, for if they did not they
would shut out from the Council someof the very best men
that could be selected for that body, as able and intelli-
gent men, after passing their lives in India, had a great
desire upon their return home to be in Parliament. Why,
then, should such persons be declared to be ineligible to
sit on the Council to he formed under this ? The
to a
plarrignecripoluemVlll3etr,waonuildhe arpeaplilyy ttoh otuhgr ehet w
thatouldalalptphley mem-
bers of the Council ought to be eligible to seate in Per-
After a few words from the Duke of MARL-
BOROUGM,
The Earl of ELLEN BO 110 UGH expressed a hope
that the noble earl at the head of the Government would
adhere to the clause as it stood, and he believed that the
proposed alteration would lead to great inconvenience.
Earl GRANVILLE thought they ought to know
whether the members of Council were to give up the
whole of their time to the business of their office.
Tae Earl of DERBY said the intention of the Govern-
, went was that these gentlemen should not be dillettanti
members of the Council, but should give adequate
'time to their duties, and consider those duties to
be the first and primary object. As to the clause
in question, the question really was between absolute
admission and absolute exclusion. It had been very
fully discussed in the other house, and the argument
which carried most weight was, that if those gentlemen
were allowed to sit in Parliament, great facilities would
be given for ministerial corruption. No limitation as to
number was possible, and having, therefore, to choose

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YEATERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair shortty after 12 o'clock.
PItIVATE BUSINESS.

Davidson's Estate Bill was read a second time.

The Lards' ainendmmts to the following private bills
------
were considered and agreed to :—Birkenhead Improve-
ment Commissioners (Gas and Water) Bill ; Oxford,
Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway Bill, and
Windsor Now R lad Bill.
CORRUPT PRACTICES PREVENTION ACT

' . stating that
between absolute admission and absolute exclusion, he I appeared at the bar of the house with
eeterencie
preferred the latter. gracious answer relative to an address w.
Is November,
The Earl cf CLARENDON wished to know whether , the discontintfance of the service on the 5
any member who at the time of his appointment or elec. ' the 314:0f January, and the 29th of May,
tion migbt be en-4;10d in trading or banking would be 'it should receive the careful consideration v, 'bia its ins:
obliged to give it up, ae persons appointed to under-secrc- portance demanded. .
tarythies or sim•lar offiess were now compelled to do ? SUPERANNUATION BILL. ' • -
The Earl of Derby replied they could not continua In reply to a question from Mr. WILSON,
any business requiring a degree of personal attention The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUI IR said IA
whieb would interfere with the duties of their office, bet declined to state the course he should purse a vvi..a re-
he could not admit that a man should be disqualified ference to this bill, as it must depend on tl se state of
because he was an eminent merchant, or a great banker, public business. He fixed Tuesday next for I he motion
or a sleeping partner in a great brewery. of the hon. and learned nsemb•r for Sheffield, relativeto
The Earl of CL kRENDON said the same rule ought the Hudson's Bay Company, and the hon. o &ember for
then to be applied to the offices he had mentioned. London, relative to the destruction of propel ty belong-
The Earl of ELLENBO ROUGH thought that if they ing to British merchants in the Gulf of Both ilia during
were to have a Council entirely devoted to their duties, I the late war.
they ought to retain no interest which could possibly be THE BILLETING SYSTEM.
affected by their official acts. (Hear, hear.) General CODR[NGTON asked the Sf iertntary of
The Marquis of CLA.NRICA.RDE believed it was a State for War whether the Government inten,ded to take'
fact that four million of supplies were now annually con- any steps for the purpose of carrying o utthe rec Emmen-
tracted for in London which could be more advantage- clarions of the select committee on the Billeting system ?
ously obtained in Calcutta, but the object was to keep General PEEL said it was not their in tentiol Ito make
up the City influence. any alteration this session. He would, howe vor, take
The 'Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said the Council care to render the system as little incons'eniei it as pos-
would have constantly to decide questions affecting the sible during its continuance.
interest of every man engaged in trade, and they ought THE TURKISH MEDALS.
to be above all suspicion. Mr. OSBORNE inquired of the Secretary of State for
Earl GRA.NTILLE considered that when the salary War when the medal protn'sed by the Turkic h Govern-
was so much increased, the members might fairly be went was likely to be distributed to the offices a and men
called on to devote themselves exclusively to their office. who served in, the Crimean campaign ?
If the objection of his noble friend was valid, what be- General -PEEL said the delay had arises 1 from the
came of that portion of his noble friend's own plan which number. '4,000, that had to .be supplied. A. 9 soon as
proposed to have representatives of five great cowmen- her Majesty's Government received them front Turkey,
cial cities in the council ? they should be distributed without loss of time.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE thought it would be best SLAVE TRADE.
to have the members free from even the suspicion of. On the motion for adjournment till Monday,
pecuniary advantage. Mr. HUTT gave notice that early next mission. he
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the go- should submit a motion relative to the slave trade.
vernment of India was essentially a government of re- DUBLIN METROPOLITAN POLIO s -
cords as had been remarked by a noble lord opposite, Mr. COGAN moved for a copy of all letters a 5.1,1 re-
who had been himself President of the Board of Control, ports of Colonel Brown and Mr. O'Ferrall to the ICieh
Everything was reported home, and the documents Government in December and January last, in referenc..`
passed through the various departments. He could to the organisation orthe Dublin Metropolitan Police.
assure their lorddhips that if every member of the Council The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND en-
were to attend every day for four or five hours there tered into an explanation on the subject. He said no
would be ample business for them to do. The great correspondence had passed between these parties and the
difficulty was to have all the details and records before Government. They had only each sent in a report. He
them which were necessary, in order to arrive at a sound thought it would be injury to the service to produce
conclusion, them.
(Here that portion of the ceiling fell in which is re- After some discussion, in which Mr. J. D. Fitzgerald,
ferred to is another column.) Lord Naas, and Mr. P. O'Brien took part, the subject
Earl GRANVILLE moved the insertion of the words dropped.
"Nor bold or carry on any other business, trade, or ST. BERNARD'S REFORMATORY.
_ .

Mr. SPOONER asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether he bed made any inquiry
into a statement whiei appeared in the public papers,
relative to a feast having been given to the convict chil-
dren in the St. Bernard's Rebrmatory, and what has
been the answer to such inquiry; whether the Reforma-
tory at St. Bernard's receives public grants on account
of such convicts ; whether other children not convicts
are received at St. Bernard's • and if so, whether the
convicts associate with such children ? If the Secretary
of State will lay on the table of the house a return of the
names of such convicts, where they were convicted, and
whether the parents of such convicts have contributed
towards the maintenance of their children in that Refor-
matory, and to what amount ?
Mr. WALPOLE said there would be no objection to
produce the return asked for. As soon as his attention
was called to the feast accompanied with a dress ball,
given to the children, that appeared in the public papers,
he caused inquiries to be made, and the result was that
an assurance had been given to him that such an oc-
currence should not be repeated. The Reformatory re-
ceived public grants, and children not criminals were in
the Reformatory. The return would give the honourable
member all the information he required.
SALE OF POISONS BILL.
Mr. WALPOLE announced his intention to with-
draw this bill this session.
THE LADIES' GALLERY.
Major EDWARDS moved that the temporary experi-
mental alteration in the central compartment of the
ladies' gallery, with some immaterial modification, having
been generally approved, a similar change should be made
in the side compartments, and the whole permanently
completed under the superintendence of Sir Charles
Barry.
The SPEAKER informed the gallant member he
could not then move a resolution.
Maier EDWARDS then put it in the shape of a ques-
tion.
Mr. MALINS said the alterations that bad already
been made in the ladies' gallery were forthe worse, and
he hoped they would not be extended as asked. He be-
lieved the only inconvenience the ladies had suffered
arose from the seats being too narrow for the prevailing
Mae of the dresses. (Laughter.)
Mr. CLAY suggested that a committee had better be
appointed to examine the only evidence who could give
an opinion on the subject.
The subject then dropped.
EPPING FOREST.
Mr. HANBURY asked the First Commissioner of
Works whether he was aware that some of the Crown
rights of Epping Forest which were nearest to London
and most frequented, had been sold by the. Government
during the last few months; and called the attention of
the-house to the importance of securing the yet unenclosed
portions of Epping Forest for the recreation of the in-
habitants of the metropelie.
Mr. HAMILTON said the question should have been
addressed to him. He would make inquiry, and give an
answer on a future day.
EJIWENSES IN CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS.
Mr. PHILLIPS oalled the attention of her Majesty's
Government to the expediency of an early settlement of
the scale of expenses allowed in connection with criminal
prosecutions.