The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-20 00:00:00

TUESDAY EVENINGAPRIL 20, 1858.
THE SUN, LONDON,

Mr. WARRE wished to know if the right hen; gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer could ley upon the
table any return of the result of the succession duty. Ho
reared that the colculations of the right hon. gentleman,
in reference to the revenue to be derived from the Post-
office, would not be realised, but he must say that he could
see no objection to the equalisation of the duty upon Eng-
lish and Irish spirits.
Mr. M`MAHON said that the proposal to increase the
duty on Irish spirits from es. 2d. to Ss. was a very large
tete. and would be severely felt by the dealers in spirits in
4jeland. He trusted that, whatever arrangements would
be made on the subject, that the Government would accede
to thesuggestion of the hon. member for the city of Cork,
dealers
not lay the increased duty on the stock of the retail
:ealets in spirits. He trusted that the duty would not have
retrospective operation.
, Mr. lIALINS concurred in all the proposals of the right
gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) except
`me- They had now a Parliamentary assurance that there
Would be no increase in the income-tax ; but that on the
18etorarY, the orig arrangement for its extinction in
_ would be carried out. Thise announcement would be
received with satisfaction by the country, for the tax was
.I,‘ most detestable one. The only objection he had to the
budget related to the pen stamp on cheques, for he be-
lieved it would • f with the monetary transactions
of country,
intersere
abMouru. T°.llonetTßYß. lEN said the right hon. gentleman was
e ausedttomake Ireland pay for the deficit caused iu the re-
venue by England. According as they had found an in-
a° in the duty on spirits in Ireland beyond a certain point,
con same proportion smuggling and all its injurious
st sequences increased. The force which formerly re•
wined smuggling was now stone away with, and the land
Was thrown open to a renewal of this illicit trade. He
!eared the result in lieland would not be beneficial. It
tiTeared to him that this was a gross financial wrong im-
posed upon Ireland for the general good.
es 'lat.- DODSON said the farmer had to pay the duty on
te'"°l2s, whether his circumstances were prosperous or the
'erse Ho had hoped that the promise of former years,
that this tax should be reduced or diminished, would not
have been forgotten. He was disappointed that this sub-
Ject had been overlooked.
Mr. E. BALL said that the interest of hop-growers was
not the question before the house, but the question was
Whether the property and income tax should be gradually
done away with. The country weald receive the announce-
ments of the right hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the
.s.srchequer) on this subject with unqualified satisfaction.
"as' s would rather have preferred an increase of taxation on
spirits generally than the plan actually proposed by the
Government. As to the proposed duty on cheques, he
thought that where twenty cheques were now drawn
Ire would in future, if this new tax were imposed, be
13feilatrYedy.at; and the result would be that they would require
a large increase in the monetary circulation, which he
Would be attended with inconvenience to the
tountr
Mr. GLYN said the right hon. gentleman bad exercised
tv very wise discretion as to the mode in which he proposed
Pay off the existing liabilities of the country, and also
regard to the new taxation, except the proposed duty
..,
n cheques, to which ho would ask the right hon. gentle-
Men to give further consideration. (Hear.) If this pro-
Posed penny stamp on thecheques was proposed, it would in-
terfere with the duty on receipts. Therefore, iu point of
q
fact, what the right hon. gentleman would gain by the new
duty on cheques, he would lose by the reduction that
;would take place in the amount of duty from receipts. But
the serious objection to this proposal was that it would in-
terfere with the small circulation of the country. In all
tile small towns, both in the agricultural and manufacturing
districts, the process of keeping accounts during the last
fifteen or twenty years had i .creased enormously. If that
bad not been so, it would have been impossible for the
circulating medium to have carried on the business of the
country. There was now hardly a small farmer who did
hot keep his cheque-book and an account at his banker's,
upon whom cheques so low as for 21. and 3/. were drawn.
if the right hon. gentleman kept these facts in view, he
Would find that his gain would be so small as not to coin-
Pensate for the incenveniences to which it would subject
the public. He (Mr. Glyn) had said nothing about Lon-
don, from which, no doubt, to-morrow or next day, he
Would have representations enough. To stockbrokers and
others the inconvenience would be moat serious. Thou-
'lands of cheques were drawn by Stock Exchange gentle-
roan in the course of a day, but the great difficulty was the
inconvenience which would be felt in small country towns.
Mr. INGRAM said he must express his astonishment
at bearing no proposal whatever for a reduction or revision
of the paper duties. This had been a subject spoken of
Year by year, and the evils which fl.,wed from the opera-
tion of this tax pointed out. Some honourable members
Wished for a reduction of the hop duty, and others to get
rid of the malt duty; but he thought the paper duty as
slf ppressive, and more injarious in its operation than either.
they wanted a new tax, why not impose a penny in the
Pound upon all property in the country, say once in ten
years? (A. laugh.) Honourable members might laugh, but
theres.s might be a worse proposal than that (Hear, hear.)
rte hoped that some portion of this budget would be re-
'viewed, with the object of getting rid of the paper duty,
Which affected not only the trade but the education of the
country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BIGWEaLLse fromsaidhethdeidpnroopt
otsheiankamuutych increase of
revenue would arise
The duty on spirits was an Irish question, andohnechtheoqe.ugehs.t
the effect of imposing an additional duty on spirits in that
country would only be to deteriorate the article.
Mr. BAXTER, in reference to the spirit duties, sail
the.people of Scotland were perfectly satisfied with the
law
as it stood at the present moment in that country.
They would not find in all Scotland 10) persons who would
sh to go back to the old system. Ho begged te express
his general concurrence in the financial scheme developed
in the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which.
be thought exhibited great pru reuse and discretion, eon•
sidering the circumstances of the country, and he hoped
that both now, and in all future stages, it would meet
With the concurrence of the house.
Mr- PULLER said it was only last week that a country
banker, with whom he was conversing, pointed out to him
the great injustice and inconvenience which the country
bankers sustained owing to the exemption of London
cheques from the penny stamp; for sometimes be (the
banker in question) put three penny stamps upon 100 or
200 cheques every day. It might be a matter of coneidern-
%lon for the house us to whether the banking system of this
and whether
!?untry had not been carried too far, and our circuloating
ediuna too much contracted , it was not
g •to the extension of the banking system, and the
contraction of our currency, that the late panic fell so
severely on the country-
,p_irle,r. STEWART congratulated the Chancellor of the
Pequer on not increasing the income-tax. He was
glad that, for a paltry million he had not taken n step so
obnoxious to the country. could no reason what-
Evar
Nvh Hesee .
With 3' sreiand should not be put upon a perfect equality
England in regard to the spirit duties. As to draft

stamps he could see no reason whatever for the exemption
whichnow existed.
Mr. GLADSTONE, who was listened to with marked
attention, said—Sir, lam glad to hear, from the general
tone of conversation this evening that the feeling of the
house is favourable to the general spirit of the proposals of
the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
With respect to the imposition of the penny stamp on all
cheques, I am aware that this is a point upon which much
difference of opinion has existed. I have not doubt that
the information whieh the Chancellor of the Exchequer
will receive, both from London and from the country,
supplied by those who are moat competent to give a
practical opinion, will enlarge the means of forming
a correct judgment. which he already possesses, and will
enable him to persevere with this part of his
proposal on a still fuller knowledge of the question,
or to withdraw it without any discredit. (Hear.) Under
the circumstance supposed, it would be no discredit to
withdraw it. (Hear.) With respect to the equalisation
of the spirit duties, I feel bound to tender my thanks to
the right hon. gentleman. I can well recollect that upon
every occasion that the increase of the spirit duties in Ire-
land has been proposed by a Minister of Finance, there
have been many dismal vaticinations preferred by Irish
members. (Hear, and laughter.) We have been told that
the only consequence would be an immense increase of
illicit distillation, and a total failure of any anticipations
which might have been entertained in regard to an aug-
mentation of the revenue. (Hear.) In 1812, those who
thus prophesied, uttered their prophecies with perfect
truth. Sir R. Peel proposed an increase of duty amount-
ing to ls. per gallon ; and it will be in the recollection of
the house that that ls. duty was remitted in 1843, on ac-
count of a decided belief that it furnished a stimulus to
illicit distillation. It was nateral that similar anticipa-
tions should again be entertained. I was myself the first
person ten years later, to revive the proposal to augment
that duty, because I had arrived at the conclusion that
those evils which had formerly defeated the measure could
then be contended with and overcome. Our success on
that occasion was perfect, and my right hon. friend oppo-
site, who raised the Irish spirit duty to the point at which
it now stands, has found out on all occasions his expecta-
tions from that increase justified. (Hear.) It is time we
should remove what is a blot and a mischief in our fiscal
arrangements, and establish a uniform rate. It is a prac-
tical question as to whether there may not still be a point
at which you might revive illicit distillation ; but no
doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer has conferred on
that subject with the heads of the revenue department,
and there are no persons in this country more competent to
give him information upon which he may found his judg-
ment with the utmost reliance. I trust the time has
come when the landlords of Ireland, acting on more
enlightened views than formerly, are prepared to unite
heartily with the Government in setting themselves
against illicit distillation—(hear, hear)—because it is on
their influence we must very much depend for the success
of this measure. I rejoice to see that in Scotland it has
been the co-operation of the landlords with the Govern-
ment in discouatenancing illicit distillation that has led
almost to the extinction of that vicious and demoralising
practice inthat country. (Hear, hear.) As to the larger
portion of the deficiency which is connected with the ob-
ligation to discharge the public debt, of course I cannot
pretend to look-with sanguine hope and pleasure upon ar-
rangements, tho substance and pith of which consists iu
postponing the obligation to discharge it. It would have
been infinitely more gratifying to me if the Government had
been in a condition, and the house in a disposition to take
some bolder measure for the purpose of liquidating that
during the present year. At the same time we must not
expect too much from the Government. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.) We must not, however, expect from them more
than can fairly be thought to lie within their power.
(Hear.) Looking at the political division of parties, the
events of last year, and the mode in which this deficiency
has been brought about, I do not feel that I, for one, have
any right to complain. (Hear, hear.) Much has been said
to-night on the subject of the income-tax, and the right
hon. gentleman, perhaps, if he had thought fit to make the
proposal, might have btained the sanction of the com-
mittee to some augmentation of the income-tax. But the
right hon. gentleman has distinctly, on this occasion, as on
some former occasions, expressed his own conviction, and
the conviction of his Government, that it is desirable that
we should not, if we can avoid it, disappoint the expecta-
tions of the country—that the period will soon arrive when
the income tax will reach its determination. I con-
cur in those views of the right honourable gentle-
man, and I can appreciate the disposition which the
Government has shown to avoid preferring a request for
the augmentation of the income tax at the present time,
although the pressure upon them, and the inducements
to such a course have been considerable, because they are
unwilling to raise in the country the belief that those rea-
sonable expectations are to be disappointed. (Hear.) There
are gentlemen in this house, as appears from the discussion
to-night, who look forward with eagerness and desire to
the extinction of the income tax. But let us not forget
that which is a matter of the greatest weight and import-
ance—if these expectations are ever to be practically rea-
lised—viz , that the real impediment to the extinction of
the income tax does not consist in the change of circum-
stances which has occurred since 1853, in connection with
the war. It is true that the war has made a permanent ad-
dition to your burdens to the extent of about a million
and a quarter per annum perhaps, but no one will say
that the change of the circumstances of the country to
that extent is a sufficient cause for the postponement of
those expectations which we have taught the people to en-
tertain with regard to the extinction of the income tax.
That really resides in the expenditure of the country. Be-
fore 1852 the expenditurewas . 0 or 51 millions per annum.
Since that time we have thrown into the statement the
cost of collecting the revenue, and probably if we were to
estimate cost we should say the expenditure of the country
was 54 or 55 millions per annum. But, Sir, what is the
expenditure of the country now. My right hon. friend
and his colleagues have effected some reductions, and apart
from all charges connected with the reduction of the debt,
I understood him to say that he estima'ed at 63,600,0001.
the regular and ordinary expenditure of this country for
the year. (Hear.) If then we have made an augmentation
in the permanent expenditure amounting to 8 or 9 millions
a year, out of which only 21 millions is connected with the
permanent and annual charge entailed by war, it neces-
sarily follows that we have some 7 or 8 millions a year
added to the permanent expenditure of the country during
the period referred to, apart from war obligations, and if
there be such an additional expenditure, it needs no wizard
to determine where we are to find the true obstacle to the
extinction of the income tax. (Applause.) Amongst
the various hon, gentlemen who have addressed us, one
has cried out for the extinction of the paper duty, another
for the abo ition of the hop duty, and another for the ex-
tinction of the malt tax. Some of these claims are reason-
aisle, and some of them are unreasonable. But owing to
the state of our expenditure, we are not only precluded
from reducing the debt, but we are likewise precluded
from carrying forward those beneficial changes in our com-
mercial legislation—of which some yet remain to be accom-
plished—which have proved of such immense benefit and
advantage to all classes of this country. At the present
moment it would be unreasonable to make large demands
upon the Government. (Hear, bear.) The right hon.
gentleman says truly that a real reduction of the expeudi
Lure, if it be voted wisely and safely, must bo voted deli-
berately ; and it is but fair that the Government should
ask for the leisure of the recess in order to be able to give
its attentioe properly to such a subject. (Hear.) But let
us place it fairly and fully before our own minds. More
than ever lot us consider that, if we mean the extinction
of the income tax, we must seriously review the whole
subject of the expenditure of the country. (Hear, hear.)
I do hope that the circumstances of the country may be
favourable to it when the right hon. gentleman and his col-
leagues come to consider the subject, and I trust that
when the Government shall again meet Parliament in
another session, :after the recess, we may find that wo aro
not only disposed in words to recognise our obligations to
the country on the subject of the income tax, but that we
have some prospect of bringing the scale of our expenditure
down to such dimensions as may give a practical character
to our expectations, and enable us to cherish reasonable
hope of being able to confer on the country, at an early
date, the realisation of that inestimable benefit. (Hear.)
Mr. SLANEY said, if the right hon. gentleman (Ur.
Gladstone) hoped that they were to gat rid of the income
tax without adding to their taxation in any other shape, he
cordially joined with him ; but if they took the income
tax, and placed an equal amount of taxation on articles of
consumption, that would be a great hardship to the
humbler classes, whose consumption of taxable articles
was larger iu proportion than in the case of the more opu-
lent classes. (Hear, hear.) He congratulated the right lion.
gentleman (Hr. Disraeli) on his able financial statement,
and expressed his general concurrence in the sentiments
he hart expressed, except in so far as he had understood
him to hope for the cessation of the income-tax, although
it should be partially or altogether substituted by taxes of
another nature.
Mr. NE WD EGATE had been a member of the income-
tax committee, and as such bad soma knowledge of the sub-
ject, anti ho felt convinced that the people of this country
would never be satisfied till that odious impost was totally
abolished. (Hear, hear.) As to the substitutes for the tax,
that was a largo question which would well engage the
attention of the Government during the recess. He thought
the Government, for its financial scheme, was entitled to
the thanks of the country. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had understood his position, the position of the Go-
vernment, and the expectations which the country enter-
tained. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CARD WELL said be was sorry he ceuld not alto-
gether concur in the manner in which the right hon. gen-
tleman proposed to treat the two millions of Exchequer.
bonds. Those bonds were raised to anticipate a half-year
of the war income-tax, and if they wore to be remitted, it
should be out of the income-tax, and. it was before the
expiration of the income-tax that they could alone expect
to do so. If ho understood the right hon. gentleman
aright, they were to have a re.borrowing, with a declining
income-tax, the debt to be thrown ou the years 18i1 and
1863. Well, if we could not afford the repayment now,
what would be our position then? No doubt, as com-
pered with this year, there would bs a gain of three
millions; for there would be the falling in of the Long
Annuities, amounting to two millions, and an additional
taxation of ono million. On the other hand, however, the
income-tax would have ceased, and that amounted to
more than six millions. That year, therefore, would be
worse by three millions than this. With respect to the
proposal to lay an increased duty on spirits, that
was a proposal which ovary one must cordially approve,
and which their friends from Ireland had only opposed
with a qualified degree of opposition which was to be ex-
pected from representatives of the country. With respect
to another point, the stamp duty on cheques, it must be
admitted that, to a Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was
a most inviting proposal, espscially as the receipt tax had
turned out so satisfactory. There would be a great resis-
tance to it, however, and he should not be at all surprised
ifdidnot
happyultimately pass into law. On the whole,
however, ho was
to concur in the proposals of the
right hon. gentleman ; and ha could only have wished that
he had retained an income-tax of 2d for one year longer,
whichonl bonds,
would have met the payment of the Exchequer-
b s, and provided for the total extinction of the income-
tax in 1860
Mr. M. T. BASS said he cool I not join in the anticipa-
tions of the extinction of the income-tax in 1860, nor did
he believe that, if well regulated, it would be objectionable.
Indeed, hefeswheuldbescs,oarry to see the income-tax entirely
removed from out fi
foraKendal had talk' .system. His object in rising was
words witeheinreedgatto-dhitmo
thatthe Eitthaemhpoiliumtyemon.
tobe
mem-
ber say
cheques, is to which .i.
taken but side of the question into
view.wa
s a pie:
bonwy thatstarn
pi et.
1(..2e1ar. Bass) had drawn a
morning
seemed ha.;
cheque in Staffordshire
LiintLton that cheque
abe paid in Staffordshire on a draft for such
should
whereas a cheque drawn in London for I,ooer shaolnuuoldnlate
exempt from all duty. (Hear, hear.) Ho quite approved
of the proposal.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said his piincipal objection to the
financial statement of the right hon. gentleman was the
great increase of expenditure. The amount of the budget
of 1552-3, when the Earl of Derby was Prime Minister,
was 5),790,000/ , yet in a time of peace that sum had been
increased to 63,000,000/., and making every allowance for
the cost of collection of the revenue, there was still an in

crease of 7,700,0001. He was sorry, too, that the right hon.
gentleman had not made provision for the payment of
the 2,000,0001. Bonds, and the extinction of the income-
tax. In that respect be considered the policy of the right
hon. gentle Pan, in adding to the debt in time of peace,
was extremely objectionable. He approved of the duty on
cheques, and could have wished that the right hon. gentle-
man bad imposed a probate duty on real estate. Such a
duty would have realised 2,000,000/.
Sir F. BARING said that expectations having been held
out to the country that the income-tax was to be removed,
the financial arrangements of the right hon. gentleman
admitted those expectations to be valid, as regarded the
great party whom he led, and the house adopted the repre-
sentation. That, to his mind, was a great advantage,
and so great a one, that he should have been prepared to
support the right hon. gentleman in proposing taxes of a
more objectionable nature than those which he had pro-
posed for the purpose of obtaining it. (Hear, hear.) His
right hon. friend the member for Oxford said he should
have preferred to retain an income-tax of 2d. one year
longer, in order to pay off the Exchequer Bonds. He
(Sir F. Baring) was not prepared to say that, finan-
cially, that was better. Moreover, if it had effected its
object, it would have been at the expense of a breach of
faith. Financial pledges were not always redeemed, but
in his judgment it was a great object to observe rigidly a
pledge so made. His hon. friend who had just sat down
had spoken of the desirableness of effecting economical re-
ductions in the estimates, but there was scarcely the time
for a Government, just entered upon office as it was, to go
through the estimates for that purpose. He quite agreed
however, with the right hon. gentleman the member for
the University of Oxford, that the taking off of an income-
tax depended on the reduction of expenditure. Perfect
efficiency in the public service was quite consistent with
economy, and was not al ways to be measuredby the amount
of money expended.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I shall not long detain the com-
mittee, but I cannot help adverting to one or two observhona-
tions that have been made, es; ecially by the right .
member for Oxford city. I confess, too, I cannot agree
with the hon. member for Lambeth that is a time in
which the Government could have reduced the expenditure
below the amount now proposed. Considering the revolt in
India and the state of affairs generally, I think the expen-
diture is reduced as much as it is possible it could be re-
duced—under the circumstances. There is one step which
the Government have taken—no doubt adopting the inten-
tions of their predecessors—that causes rue regret, the dis-
embodiment of the militia. (Hear.) I believe that which
was called into action last year to be the best and most
effective force we can have. I therefore regret it is now to
be disbanded. (Hear, hear.) As to the manner in which
the right hon. gentleman proposes to meet the expenditure
of the year. With respect to his equalisation of the spirit
duties, that seems to me to be a very wise measure ; and
I think Irish members, although bound to object—(a
laugh) still felt the force of his observations upon that
subject. As to the duties upon stamps and checks, more
consideration is required, but I de not think they will
create such embarrassment as has been supposed. There
may, however, be objections of detail which are not
yet apparent. There is one thing in which I agree with
the right hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Cardwell). Of
course I do not mean to say in what manner the money
should be raised to pay the Exchequer-bonds or to con-
tinue the Sinking Fund—that is especially a difficulty for
the Chancellor of the Exchequer—(a laugh)—but I own,
without at all maintaining the wisdom of establishing the
Sinking Fund, I think it would have been a good example
if this country had been called upox to pay off in this year
some of the debt incurred by the last war. (Hoar, bear.)
My right hon. friend has said that se two million Ex-
chequer-bonds were to pay off a debthe
inurred before the
taxes were imposed in the first year of the war. It has
always appeared to me that when a country enters into
wer—and the doctrine is applicable to this as much as to
any other country—it is a groat temptation to be
able to raise thirty or forty millions at once, and if
only the interest of that sum is charged upon the pre.
sent generation it will willingly accept that burden
and leave the greater one to posterity. It appears
to me that the intention was that we were to pay each
year a certain portion of the expenses of the war. The
plan of the right hon. gentleman does away with that ob-
ligation. The nation acquiesced in that war, and if we
had paid off a part of our debt we should have shown our
opinion of the necessity of the war, and that we were wil-
ling to bear our burden on account of it ; when welcome
to 1863 the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day will
naturally say, "This is not an obligation incurred by us ;
we may as well leave it to posterity, and put it in the great
mass of debt; let it be a part of the National Debt—we
will provide for the interest, and that is the extent of our
obligation." I certainly do regret that we are about to
repudiate that obligation, as I think it would have shown
a good example if we had prayed our readiness to meet
our liabilities on account of the war we ourselves had
waged. We are now paying, as the right hon. gentleman
just observed, 23,000,0001. a-year for the debts incurred
by our ancestors. The/ found it so easy to raise loans
upon the best terms, and to leave us to discharge the ob-
ligation of re-payment ; lam sorry the right hon. gen-
tleman has not thought proper to teach the present gene-
ration a better lesson. (Hear.)
Mr. WHITE said the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
referre I to Cbina in order to explain a possible expendi-
ture, but he (Mr. White) thought the right hon. gentle-
man might be perfectly tranquil on that score, as the costs
of the late war were paid with the utmost facility by
China, to the extent of 21,00,000 dole. ; and so upon the
present occasion, if those now representing this country in
China knew their position they would be enabled to make
proper arrangements for trade which would insure us
against any ultimate loss on that gccount. All moneys
which the China war had cost, or might coat, should be
regarded in the light of money lent rather than as money
spent, because the expansion of trade which would follow
upon judicious arrangements would more than repay to
the imperial revenue any indemnification which might be
exacted from them for the cost of the war.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —I must
thank the house for the courteous and candid manner in
which it has received the propositions which, on the part
of the Government, I have had the honour of submitting.
The position in which we found ourselves was one of great
difficulty, as every hoe. gentleman has recognised, and ono
in which it would have been impossible for us to have
dealt with these matters had we not trusted to the indul-
gence of the house. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. mem-
ber for Oxford (Mr. Cardwell) has expressed a wish, in
which, financially, I quite sympathise, that we had been
able to pay off the two million bonds, but the right hon.
member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring) has replied so well
to that wi=le, and has explained so completely my feelings,
that I need not dwell upon that point. We had to consider
whether it was a matter of high policy or not that we should
announce to the country that what it believed to be the com-
pact of 1853—and which, at all events, we know was a
solemn engagement--should be carried into effect or not.
It seemed to me, after mature deliberation upon the course
which we had resolved upon, that it should be carried out
in a manner that would not lead on the part of the nation
to any suspicion ; that the country should not imagine that
what we proposed was only for the moment and for the
occasion—that it was only to be a semblance of fidelity,
and not the fact. It appeared therefore to be necessary that
we should make an arrangement with respect to the Ex-
chequer bonds, which should prevent the inference being
drawn that we were preparing to throw impediments in
the way which would render the sincere carrying out of
that policy impossible. I cannot share the apprehensions
which wore expressed by the right hon. gentleman upon
nve
that head ; for although the income-tax in 1360 may
ha
ceased— as I hope it will—l cannot believe that the re-
sources of the country will not be able to meet
the claim of 1,000,000/e a year for two 3 ears. Has
the right honourable gentleman no confidence in the pro-
gress of the prosperity of the country ? Does he sup-
pose that four or five years are to pass over oar h
we are
eads,
an that our resources will not so increase, unless
1
visited with some great calamity—such as a war or a famine
—that we shall be enabled to meet such a demand with per-
fect facility ? He has no confidence in increased revenue, in
increased retrenchment, and in that Sycee silver which was
promised by the hon. member for Plymouth. (Hear, and
a laugh.) I, sir, live confidence that these bonds will be
met by the revenue of the year, and that they never will
became a part of the permanent' debt of the country ; and I
have the greater confidence, because I believe that there will
be a ready disposition on the part of the nation to support
sound financial views if they find that in this matter Par-
liament has kept faith with them. (Hear, hear.) It will
be necessary to have a vote of Committee in Supply for the
purpose of those bonds, and I have prepared a resolution
which I propose to move to-night. That must be followed
by a Committee of Ways and Means on Wednesday, and
I trust that the house will not object to our taking that
course. (Hear.) I have listened to all that has been urged
with regard to the two new taxes which I have proposed
and, with respect to the first of them I must say that I
think that the general expression of feeling on the part of
the Irish members appears to be most genuine and good-
natured, for I cannot believe that the opposition they have
shown arises from anything more than a desire to exhibit
that eloquence which characterises them, and in which I
candidly confess they excel both Englishmen and Scotch-
men. (Hear, and a laugh.) I am sure they will find on re-
flection, however, that the measure is really calculated for
the benefit of their country. One hon. gentleman alarmed
me by stating that the policy which I was pursuing would
open the door to smuggling; but I can have no apprehen-
!don —with the aid,of the constabulary, to whom will be
confide I the duties of the late revenue police of Ireland—
that smuggling will increase. The right hon. gentleman
the member for the University of Oxford did me the jus-
tice to suppose that I would not take the rasponsibilty of
introducing this proposition to Parliameet, had T not, after
careful research, satisfied myself that there was no proba-
bility of there being any recurrence to illicit distillation
rpa aomi
ssoeeldn
at I ran edb
edi ulnittyi
teurdpe
distillation
tratei
Irll
atr
thi
in Ireland. We have three times since 187)3, I think,
ad, eonfo.o fwt
.hpor(sioeo.
aohan t
hassphieri t nes ho—ta ntbl 'gee nawghhg receahgr
not ascribe that especially to the constabulary force, but
I ask is there no change in Ireland? (Hear, hoar.) Isn't
there a higher tone, a greater sense of duty and love of
order in Ireland; and isn't it true that things that were
done 25 years ago in that country no man would think of
doing at the present time—not merely because the moral
sense of the country is higher, but because its material pros-
perity has also improved ? (Hear.) Ireland has risen. She
stands much higher, both in the material and the moral
scale, and I am satisfied that the result of this change will
whenit is understood, receive the approbation of the Irish
people. It is not in my power to consent to postponing
the resolution on the subject, but the hon. member for
Cork will lose nothing by that. It must appear hereafter
in the shape of a bill, and he will have every Parlia-
mentary opportunity of discussing it; but I trust that we
shall hear no more of opposition, and that the Irish
members generally will give it a generous support. (Hear,
hear.) With respect to the stamp upon checks, I must
inform the hon. member for Kendall, who seems to think
that Chancellors of the Exchequer bring forward mea-
sures without giving them the least previous consideration,
that I have endeavoured to make myself master of all the
objections that can be urged to that proposition. They
have been urged before ; and, nevertheless' a res elution
leactioning a similar measure has been passed_ No doubt

Th w
eth i aibllotefitaitheevemryattieufr
Oramliaatioonn the u hThe same honourable gentleman has great doubts of the
accuracy of my estimate respecting ;the returns from
7senloibmrayrsythrey
the Post-office. Now, that was a subject on which I
n
did not presume to exercise any discretion. It is a depart-
ment on which it was impossible for me to form any opi-
nien, and I entirely depended, therefore, upon a gentleman
who has the management of that department, and who,
for thorough knowledge of the subject and for general in-
telligence, is scarcely equalled in the country. If the hon.
gentleman were to hear the manner in which that gentle-
man explains the apparent defalcation this year, and calcu-
lates upon the sum of 3,200,6001., which is the sum that I
have fixed on, for next year, I am sure that he would feel
that I was justified in adopting that amount. The hon.
member for East Sussex has made an attack upon me for
the 'oemtemptuous manner, as he said, in which I had
treated the hop duties.
Mr. DODSON was understood to explain that what he
had said was that his constituents would not think that
justice had been done to them by omitting to deal with the
hop duties.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER continued.
—Well, to be accused of not doing justice is certainly not a
compliment ; but I ask how could I, with a balance-sheet
such as I had to submit to the committee, enter into the
question of the hop duties or of any other duties to be re-
pealed ? (Hear, hear.) What encouragement have I to
deal with the hop duties ? I once attempted to do so and
I was unsuccessful. (" Hear," and a laugh.) Since then I
have received what I may call a " monster deputation,"
which included almost everygentleman in Kent and Sussex.
I received them, of course, with great pleasure, and felt
highly honoured by their visit; but the primary and cardinal
point of their policy was that no remission of thehop.duty
short of its total repeal was for a moment to be attempted.
Under those circumstances I could hardly suppose that the
hon. member for Sussex could have contemplated that I
could hold out to him or to his constituents any expectation
of being able to afford them that relief which they sought,
anti I may add that I have too much confidence in the
courtesy of those gentlemen of Kent and Sussex who waited
upon me on the occasion to which 1 have referred to be-
lieve for a moment that they could fancy I was dis-
posed to treat their claims with contemptuous silence.
(Hear, hear.) That they are a suffering class at this mo-
ment I entertain no doubt; but unfortunately there are
many such classes and districts throughout the country,
and I cannot help thinking that with a deficit of 4,000,0001.
before us it is a somewhat unreasonable proposition to
make that I should entirely repeal the hop duties, because
nothing short of their total abolition will, I am informed,
meet thedifficulties of the question. (Hear, hear.) Now,
the hon. member for Dec ()report (Mr. Wilson) has com-
mented upon the statement which I made this evening,
and has stated that he does not feel much confidence in my
es' imates with reference to the Customs, and still less with
rospeet to those which I have made in the case of the Ex-
cise. He seems to be of opinion that there has been an
extraordinary addition to the revenue daring the past year
in the shape of spirit duties, for which I ought not to
take credit in framing the estimates for 1858-9. Now,
under the head of Excise for the year which has just
elapsed appears an amount which 'may be called extra-
ordinary, but I doubt whether the hon. gentleman
was correct in attributing the existence of that amount
entirely, or even mainly, to the duties upon spirits. For
my part, I believe it arose from the malt duties to an ex-
tent upon which we cannot now calculate ; but, be that as
it may, I altogether differ from the hon. gentleman as to
the principle upon which the estimates ought to be framed.
I think, indeed, that in order to illustrate the financial
position of the country, it is essential to call the attention
of the house to some particulars connected with the va-
rious branches of our revenue for the year which may have
just expired, but I must at the same time maintain that
the only sound course to pursue in dealing with the depart.
ments such as the Customs and the Excise is to flame your
estimates in accordance with that which you believe will
be the probable consumption for the year for which you
are about to provide. (Hear.) You must not argue in this
crude manner that, because last year 18,0 ,o,oeo/. were
obtained from a particular source, you would be justi-
fied in estimating the revenue from that source for the
next year at 18,230,0e0/. (Hear, hear.) Upon the
contrary, you must take article by article, and frame your
estimate upon the probable consumption of that article
within the year for which it is your object to make provi-
rnsi
which
ait
cu
he in ohnuaogvher
et
laatpoiedeetxbeerfcirs
provi-
sion. I cannot, therefore, concur with the hon. gentleman
in the opinion that extraordinary and eccentric circum-
stances, such as those to which he has called the attention
oI
f,
estimates othe
coc course, shape which the estimates ought to assume. (Hear, hear.)
disposedce
the
hift
committee.
o influence
ht tkt from
ou. po
tak-
ingpn thone upon myself the responsibility of having framed the
the contrary, I to the fullest extent accept and em brace
them ; but I may add that I have been empowered to
state upon the authority of those gentlemen upon whose
knowledge and experience I and every gentleman who
holds the position which I have the honour to occupy must
place the utmost dependence—that there is notafieure
which I have submitted to the committee which has not
their fullest sanction. (Hear.) I have had documents
containing a general view of the state of the country, its
trade and manufactures, sent to ins by persons who hold
influential but still subordinate positions to those emi-
nent gentlemen to whom 1 allude, and who take a much
more sanguine view in reference to the Customs than I
have thought I should be justified in taking as the basis
of the calculation which I have made. My object has been
to lay before the committee estimate which I conceived to
be fair, temperate, and cautious. (Hear.) I have the utmost
confidence in the progressive prosperity of the country.
(Hear.) Ido not look forward to any sudden or violent
change in that respect ; but I anticipate that steady and
gradual improvement will continue to take place which, if
no calamity should befall us, will, with the blessing of
Divine Providence, Ca ise our rag u cos next year to assume
a more satisfactory aspect. (Hear.) It remains for me only
to thank the committee once more for the indulgence which
it has extended towards me this evening, en indulgence
which I can assure you I deeply feel. (Loud cheers.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked what change the right
ho e gentleman proposed to make in reference to Exche-
quer-bonds ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQURRe-It is my
intention, when the bill founded upon these resolutions is
before the house, to bring under its notice the accounts of
the appropriation of the public money, and I shall then
state what are the measures we propose to bring forward on
the subject generally, and what the course is which we re-
commend to be taken in the case of Exchequer bills.
Various resolutions embodying, the proposals contained
in the financial statement were then put and agreed to,
and the hews resume 1.
THE RgCALL OF LORD HOWDEN.
Sir DE LACY KVANe then proceeded to call the atten-
tion of the house to the subject of the recall of Lord How-
den from Madrid. It was, he said, generally thought that
Spain was in a most deploralle state. This might be so ;
but he expressed his confident opinion that there was no
country in Europa which during the last ten or twelve
years had made greater material progress than that coun-
try. However difficult were the circumstances of the
country, it still enjoyed the form of a constitutional go-
vernment, and it was most important that our policy with
respect to that country should not be of a retrogressive
character. The Quadruple Tr
sty, from which such good
results had been obtained, should not be suffered to bo de-
parted from. Since the present Government had come into
office some important changes had been made in the diplo-
matic service at Vienna and St. Petersburg. whore our
representatives had previously expressed their determina-
tion to resign. This was not, however, the case with Lord
Howden at Madrid, whose recall had produced the greatest
astonishment to all parties in Spain. No one in that
country was aware of the causes of the recall of Lord
How:ten. All the organs of publie opinion, of every shade
of politics, had expressed their regret at the recall. What
rendered the case still more remarkable was the recall of
the French Minister, Turgot, at the same moment as
Lord Howden. He should like, therefore, to know on
what grounds this removal had been made, and he had no
personal interest whatever in the matter. Ho thought
it most important that some information should be
given to the country on the subject. He could not but re-
gard the recall of that nobleman as an unpopular act on
the part of the Government, and he trusted that the right
hon. gentleman would be able to state that. this change
had not been made in consequence of the dictation of any
foreign Court (Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. FITZ .r.IERILD said there was not the slightest
justification for any of the insinuations of the hon. and
gallant member, and he could not but think that the course
proposed was an almost unprecedented one. (Oh, oh, and
ironical cheers.) The hon. and gallant member had said
that coincident with the recall of Lord Howden there had
been the recall of the Marquis of Target. Ile was confident
that no representations on the subject had been made by
the Cabinet of France, and if such had been made, he was
confident that they would not be listened to for a moment
by her Majesty's Government. It was perfectly true that
the recall of Lord Howden was rather abrupt, inasmuch
aa it was first announced by the telegraph ; bat thee upon
the same day that the telegraph was sent to him, a private
letter to the same effect was forwarded to him by his noble
friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, couched in as
courteous language as it was posaible to use. The only
reason why the telegraph was employed in the first in-
stance was to present the intimation of the earliest an-
nouncement of his recall reaching Lord Howden through
other channels than her Majesty's Government. He could
add that although in recalling Lord Howden, his noble
frieud only exercised what was his undoubted right, ho
did not thereby intend to cast any ceusuro upon him.
(Hear, hear.) All that he intended to convey by
the act was the expression of an opinion that, under the
peculiar circumstances of the moment, England would be
better served by having a different representative at the
Court of Madrid. As far the supposition thet iu taking
this step her Majesty's Government had a secret intention
of promoting certain dynastic changes in Spain, he could
only say that no such absurd idea had ever been entertained
by the Government. And certainly if they had entertained
such a notice), it was not to the Court of Denmark they
would have gone to select the instrunant of their policy.
No, they would have looked elsewhere, instead of appoint-
ing to the rest ono of the most clearsightod and accom-
pli,hed servants of the Crown. (Hear.)
- Lord PALMERSTON quite agreed to the general prin-
ciple laid dovn by the hoe. gentleman, that with regard
to the diplomatic appointments it was expedient that the
advisers of tle Crown should be at liberty to choose their
own diplomatio agents. At the same time he did not think
the present Government as the boat entitled of all others
to maintain tie principle, because he remembered that the
noble lord at the head of the Government had called upon
Parliament or; a former occasion, and with some success,
to interfere with regard to the freedom of the Government
of the day in choosing their own agents at very important
foreign posts. On the other baud, with regard to the man-
ner in which ports Howden had been recalled, he could not
say that he thought the explanation of the honourable gen-
tleman at all satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) He did not
question the act of the Government, but he must declare
his inability o recognise the necessity his recall
being communicate 1 to Lord Howden in so absu pt a man-
ner. It certainly seemed strange to make the announce•
ment by, as it were, an electrical shock,in order to proven'
-; eble

I shall he 1r miny complaints and there will be many the contents of a 'courteous and amiable letter froai oozing
letters and deputations with respect to it. All that , out. He should have imaginedthe F.)reign-office know how
I am prepared for ; but is it possible to propose any ' to keep their secrets better than that house. Ile felt it due
addition to taxation without undergoing that ordeal? The ' to Lord Howdm to boar testimony to the great ability
question is,—ls it just and will it be beneficial? As to its with which he lad discharged his important duties during
justice, I propose to do that which is the first principle of a long course of time at Madrid ; end therefore, both upon
legislation in finance—l propose to put an end to an ex- private and public grounds, he lamented the necessity for
emptier). As to the result of the measure, all that I can placing the truEt in other handy. (Hear, hear.)
say is, " try it." (Rear, and a laugh.) When it is neces- Mr. KER said that whatever might be the merits of
sary to rare revenue, and a measure is proposed which is Lord Howden, it was beyond the possibility of dispute that
just in principle,-I think that the best way of settling all the Minister appointed to succeed him was one of the ablest
k disputes as to the result is to try it. (Heti%) So much public servants kt the disposal of the Crown.
with respect to the two new taxes which I propose ; but , The house thin went into Committee of
1 there have been some miscellaneous observations and ap-
SUPPLY.
peals ma-le to myself in the course of the discussion which The f rat vote Taken was for a sum of 2,00),000/. to pay
it would be a want of courtesy not to notice. The hon. off Exchequer-bts during the currant year.
member for Ripon has declared that there is considerable The next vote agreed to was for a sum of 34,671.., to
mystery connected with what accrues from the succession
duty, and he asked if I would object to lay a return before wages of labourers in the mail establishments abroad.
the house of what was obtained from that source. The
1
complete the aiaount necessary for the payment of the
The next vote was for a sum of 789,7421., to complete the
honourable member, however, will find all the informa- sum voted for relit stores, steam machin.ry, outfits, &c.
tion that he requires in the annual financial accounts. Admiral BUNCOMBE though the re(tuction which had

tairakseehciiruapjtloeaHcseuNpupnpldyAeroKfthirNirsoohyTeearodsN
wastor wfalse economy ; amo -
merit of emergency it might be impossible to obtain an
saides the reduction had only
been made to the vote after the most protracted delibera-
tion on the part of the Board of Admiralty, and that the
vote had been kept open till the last moment with that
view.
Lord ELCHO, although not having the smallest preten-
sions to the character of a sailor, must warn the committee
from approving of a suggestion given upon a former even-
ing by the gallant admiral opposite (Sir C. Napier). The
gallant admiral had expressed a strong opinion in favour
of the very ships whose sides should be plated with iron
for war purposes. Now he believed the adoption of such
a policy would be, to say the least, very questionable.
During the late war the French had employed a ship of
that character before Kimburn, and it certainly had not
proved itself shot proof. If wrought iron shot were fired
at wrought iron plates the effect would be the same as
under the present system. Even the repeated discharge
of cast iron shot against such a surface had the effect of
splintering the inside timber coating of the ship to such
an extent as greatly to endanger the lives of the seamen.
Sir C. NAPIER hoped the Admiralty world lose no
time in trying the experiment of wooden-sided vessels
against vessels coated with wrought-iron plates. They had
plenty of old three-deckers applicable for the purpose.
Mr. LINDSAY thought that some means ought to be
devised for -enabling the House of Commons to form an
opinion as to the character and size of the ships that were
being built. The votes ought to set out such details, as
there were plenty of gentlemen having seats in that house
who were capable of forming proper notions on the
building of ships. We were building large ships for no reason
that he could learn, except that France was building large
ships, and the reason given by France was that England was
building large ships. He could imagine a small ship
capable of sinking half a dozen large ones, which could not
touch her. (Hear.) If she could go one knot an hour
faster, and throw shot five hundred yards further,h
would render them utterly worthless. He should advise
that this building of large ships cease, and offer a premium
for designs of ships to give a greater speed, with greatest
amount of stowage, &e. We should endeavour to get ships
of the greatest speed, and then they would leave every-
thing behind them. (A laugh.) He then alluded to the
recent improvements in anchors, as an example of the re-
sult of a competition similar in principle to what he sug-
gested. The Admiralty anchor was found by the committee
of 1853 to be the worst in use, and yet they had continued
to use it to that day. Trotman's was the anchor then
stated to be the best. We were losing a large amount of
money by continuing to use the antiquated anchors which
had been declared to be the worst. He thought it advis-
able in all cases to adopt the principle of public competi-
tion, and that without pledge to accept the lowest tender.
In many eases it might even be better to accept the lowest
tinder.
Lord C. PAGET differed widely from the opinion of
his noble friend. Ho referred to the opinion of Mr.
Moorsom as to the comparative merits of iron and wooden
sided ships as to the resistance to shot. There was a
limit to the size of shot, and if they could get a vessel
able to resist shots of a little more than eight inches, which
was the most they expected to get, that might be con-
sidered as shot proof, at least as regarded horizontal
shots, and would resist cast-iron shells. Guns of
snore than eight inches calibre were unmanageable and
dangerous to the ship. Thus we had arrived at the limit
of the size of the shot, but not at thelimit of the strength
of a ship's side. If a four inch iron casing weal resist an
eight inch shot, then a casing of six inches might be con-
sidered sufficient for all purposes.
Mr. WARRE said the vessels sent out to China wire
not intended for solong a journey, audit was by agaod pro-
vidence that they had arrived safe. He would throw out
a suggestion eshether it was worth while to subject them
to the risk of a journey home. The engines might be
taken out. If one of them was lost on the passage hcnae
in bad weather, the loss would be greater than if all were
left. It was clear we were on the eve of great naval im-
provements. He referred to the committee before which
Lord Carlisle gave evidence, when he said that if we wore
at war with ships moved by steam machinery, which was
now used for every other species of vessel, there was no
knowing what the expenses of such warfare would be.
Sir F. SMITH observed in reference to improvements
in warfare, that the Marquis of Anglesea had first eng-
gested the introduction of the Minie rifle.
Lord PALMERSTON said that Lord Vivian was the
first person who drew the attention of Government to
the improvement of the means of warfare, though Lord
Anglesea had afterwards taken up the matter with more
practical results.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said that in the case of iron
vessels every one who bad been on board of one of them
must come to the opinion that the vibration to which
they would be subject would render them useless in a few
years
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked:what security the com-
mittee had as to the amount that would be spent in stores ?
Without some such assurance he did not see the use of all
their discussion. Supposing a surplus on last year's votes,
would he think himself justified in using that, or would he
pledge himself that only the sums voted would be used.
Enormous sums of money were wasted in the purchase and
sale of stores. It was perfectly astounding that her Ma-
jesty's Government appeared to be the hugest dealers in
stores in the world. He believed it was a serious item of
Bost. It came out in a committee that many of their old
stores were in point of fact new stores. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. SMITH related the circumstances under which
he had communicated, with Sir J. Burgoyne and the
Marquis of Anglesea on the subject of the Minie rifle. He
was aware of the merits of Lord Vivian in connection with
this subject.
Lord ELCFIO said that he bad only asserted that Lord
Tiardinge had suggested the introduction of a lighter.
weapon.
Captain VIVIAN remembered to have formerly seen
in the room of Lord Vivian when in office samples of all
the arms in use in Europe. Lord Vivian was the first
parson who introduced the two-groove rifle in the army.
The irtieie invention consisted of an improvement in the
hall, and not in the rifle, which was precisely similar to
the two-groove rifle. He did not wish to detract from
the merit of those who had .introduced the present
weapon, especially for having placed it in the hands of the
common soldier—(hear, hear) ;--but the noble lord the
member for Tiverton was quite justified when he claimed
for Lord Vivian the merit of having first drawn attention
to the subject. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON could give no pledge that these
estimates would not be exceeded, nor could he give any
assurance that moneys appropriated for one purpose could
under any circumstances, be applied to others. He had
hoard no complaint with respect to the amount of timber
in the dockyards. Perhaps the best thing that could be
done with regard to gunboats would be to make them
available for useful purposes in whatever part of the word
they might temporarily come into disuse. He admitted
that the question of cutting down our three-deckers
hon to
single ships had been mooted. (Hear, hear.) The .
and gallant member for Southwark and others had
doubt
sug-
gested a duel between the two classes of ships. No
the hon. and gallant admiral was prepared to tak
Bue the
command of one of the opposing vessels. (A laugh.) t
who was to command the other ?
Sir C. NAPIER —The First Lord of the Admiralty.
(Laughter.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—No doubt. (Laughter.) But,
to spa* more seriously, he assured the house that the
question was now under the consideration of the Surveyor
of the Navy.. (Near, bear.)
Mr. W. AVILLIA.MS complained of the large sums ex-
pended for these purposes. The votes for this year were
more than 2,000,0301., and dwell,' the last six years they
had reached the enormous sum o(20,030,030/.
o amount
Mr. BENTINCK. commented upon the larg
Atka as to
H Willoughby's in-
terrogatory as to what had been done with respect to the
expended
them sry. s
tt system which
apwoini
teahnDetshhooe anchors,
sale of old stores. uf for
ti information
Con. CODRINGTON urged the more continued use of
the Minie rifle.
Sir C. WOOD (who had been indirectly appealed to)
re-urgededAdmiralty ask
asked
di
said that he had not brought down papers with him which
would have thrown a light upon what had been done as to
the sale of old stores ; but he replied generally, that only
such stores bad been sold which were in disuse for the par-
ticular purposes for which they had been intended, and
which would be converted to other purposes.
Sir J. PAKINGTON thought this answer conclusive ;
and replying to Mr. Bentinck's question, said he believed
thatTrotman's anchor had not come into general use, owing
to the existence of great numbers on the old construction
in use. (Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house
resumed.

LOAN SOCIETIES BILL
This bill was recd a third time and passed.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 2) BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
this bill be taken on Friday.
Mr. HORS,IAN suggested the discharge of the order.
(No, no.) As the house had resolved to proceed by resole-
t iens, it would be better to take this course, thus leaving
the house unfettered. Proceedings would be facilitated by
discharging the order.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the
objection now raised rather technical than material. There
wore two bills before the house, and on the whole it ap-
peared to him that the objection was technical; and that
unless both bills were withdrawn, it might be inconvenient
to take the course recommended. He believed the course
he proposed was according to precedent. It had already
been agreed to consider the resolutions on Monday, and he
thought it far bettor to suspend both bills until the opinion
of the house as to the principle of the two measures had
been affirmed. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON hoped that the course proposed
by the Government would not be construed into an affir-
mation of the principle of No. 2 Bill. It was yet for the
house to determine whether the proceeding by resolution
was the more advisable course.
Mr. AYRTON suggested the withdrawal of No. 2 Bill,
as the Government in their resolutions ran so counter to

the principle of their measure.
The second reading of the bill wag then postponed till
Monday.
POOR LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. CROSS obtained leave to bring is a bill to amai
the act 59th Geo. 111., cap. 1?, " to amend the laws for
the relief of the poor.
The house then adjourned at 20 minutes after twelve.

AQUATICS.

TRADESMAN'S FOUR-OARED RACE,

The members of the Pimlico and ChelsQa Unity
Rowing Club opened their season yesterday evening in a
four-eared race for money prizes from Putney to Batter•
spa-btidge, the following being the results

Whit:-1

Mr. Baker.
Mr. Bette.

Mr. F. L'dyftrO.
Mr. a Liayard.

Cole, C. xwain
Red-0

Mr. Blythe.
Mr. Cooper.

Mr. R mea.
Mr. Reid.

Fox, daxwaio.
Blue— 0.

Mr. Stovell. —...., _.
Mr. Redgrove. Mr. Witcher.
Mr. W. Cuiack.
liallday, Ccozwain.
It was from end to end one of the finest raCavin Tg
r
seen. Rtql and Wbito went away together, Red h
a blight lead, which they kept all the vvay down, not
bfing clear to Batteroea ; there R,,,-1 ar.d 'White ceijon
ally folded, and it v.. a, given in by the umpire to White.
13,!;1 cane in fiat by half-a-length, and White headed
Wue by the same distance, the I.ttter having met with a
slight accident.

(From the Tomes.)
We are all of us familiar with the buoyancy of our re-
venue, the elasticity of our resources, the fertility of our
productive powers, and such phrases or facts ; but there
is one quality of the British Exchequer which has hardly
had due justice, and which appears to want even a name.
Something can always be " rummaged " out of the Ex-
chequer by a good search into all its holes and corners,—
enough to supply the present emergency. There aro house-
wives and households with an eccentric sort of thrift who
delight to play at hide and seek with money—generally in
small sums, sometimes in a larger way. So, when a sud-
den demand is made--when, towards the end of the quar-
ter, the baker loses patience—there is the money in the
desk, and the silver in the purse, and the collection in the
missionary box—of course to be repaid—and Miss Lucy's
hoard of fourpenny-pieces, and the balance of the unsettled
account with Unale William, and the old guineas, and the
foreign coins, and other odds and ends, making up a won-
derful sum, considering the petty scale of the several
items. In fact, an idea of affluence is produced by the
review of sums which a month ago it would have been
thought ridiculous, if not sacrilegious, to touch. The
present Chancellor of the Exchequer appears to have bad
his eye first on these relies of old thrift and wrecks of specu-
lative finance. Instead of drawing deeper on the inexhaust-
ible and increasing resources of the country, or laying on:a
huge tax, he pulls down from its dusty shelf the time-ho-
noured Sinking Fund, and lays his profane hands on Mr.
Glad,tones's pet scheme of finance,—the Exchequer-bonds.
Why should we pretend to pay our debts, he asks, when
we havn't a surplus ? Why should we not renew
a running bond if there is the the same need of it now as
ever ? The truth is, we must face a deficit of four millions
this year. It is caused not by the decrease of the revenue,
which. in spite of untoward circumstances, continues to such
increase; not, in great measure, by increase of expenditure;
but by our professed obligation to pay old debts and the the t.
cessation of taxes. After the repeated resolution of the
now
country and the legislature to get rid of the Income-tax,
of the
Mr. Disraeli will not propose to put off further the reduc- autho
tion of 2d. in the pound. So he makes out his budget as autho
follows : Postpone the operation of the Sinking Fund • "2'
'
that is good for a million and a-half. Renew till 1860 the that I
two millions Exchequer-bonds now falling in. The balance State,
of rather more than half a million he makes up by equalis- relatii
hag the Irish and English Spirit Duties ; and he proposes are or
to obtain a surplus by putting a penny stamp on bankers' India
checks, which he expects to produce .300,0001. a-year. of Pr
The only feature of importance in this speech is the the a,
Chancellor of the Exchequer's view of Sinking Funds and
generallyof all attempts at &regular system of repayingdebts. Ind„ir
The right practice, and the only eound system he appears to
consider that which is really no system at all, applying the
the annual earplug to the reduction of the debt. Certainly,
every other system has hitherto proved a delusion, and
scarcely pretends to be more. For the proof of this we
have only to follow the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his
review of the several systems at work. Last year we were
actually paying off a quarter of a million of the national
debt by the operation of the general Sinking Fund ; we are
now paying a million and a half a-year by the operation of
the War Sinking Fund to pay the debt of the late war;
and this year two millions of Exchequer-bonds, which are
only a terminable form of national debt, fall due. All
these three processes are founded on the supposition of a
revenue exceeding the expenditure. It was anticipated
that they would be ; aid out of revenue; and, could it have
been shown that when the time came we should have to
borrow for the purpose of carrying out any one of these
three measures it would not have passed the house. Yet, in
fact, we have had to go into debt, and aro doing so still,
for the very purpose of making these repayments of debt ;
sad, like met silents trading without capital, we are simply
borrowing with the left hand as much as we pay with
the right. Such a practice cannot be justified in theory.
The system of, a fixed ',annual repayment of debt was, as
Mr. Disraeli observes, in the great war in the be-
ginning of the century, and utterly failed. It has
always proved a loss, as in order to pay our debts,
we have borrowed on woes° terms. The cnly question is
the moral effect. Mr. Disraeli thinks it ha 1. It makes us
imagine wo are reducing our debt when we are doing no-
thing of the kind. It also confuses and falsifies the public
accounts, telling us on ono side of them that there is a sur-
plus, on the other that there is a cloaca. The supposed
good moral effect of the practice is the national admission
of the duty, and the prescription of an exact amount. The
frequent disregard f.nd consequent inutility of a self-
imposed law does not prove it a had one. Such rules are
addressed to those who have the strength to observe them.
The B. itish public clearly has not that strength ; perhaps
circumstances do not leave it the power. Is such a moral
rule, then, as a Sinking Fund applicable to our case The
question is hardly one for mere abstract considerations. If
it can bo shown that owing to the operation of the general
Sinking Fund, or any other, we have repaid more debt
than we should have done otherwise, that is a reason for
retaining some such system. If no such results can be
shoe n, let us fall back oa our national honesty and thrift,
and have no Sinking Fund.
The Budget itself is a very practical question. How are
we to meet a deficit of four millions? Whatever may be
said of the moral effect of a Sicking Fund, or any system
whatever for the repayment or the determination of our
debts, that moral effect must be in abeyance unless we are
I actually dimi uishing the debt. This was not the case last year,
nor does the Chancellor of the Exchequer expect it will be
this year. Ho proposes simply that, as we are not actually
repaying, we must suspend the nominal process of repay-
ment.lr G. Lewis admits this to a c2rtain extent. The
two millions of Exchequer-bonds-he appears to regard as a
financial cap riment,,based oil the supposition of an increas-
ing surplus, and therefore now a failure, or, at least, not
yet successful. Let them be renewed till 1860, or any more
convenient time. But ho maintains the moral duty of im-
mediately repaying the debt contracted by the late war,
end is therefore against borrowing again to repay the
million and a half now payable under the War Sinking
Fund. There is much force in the distinction, and S'r G.
Louis is entitled to make it with authority. Mr. Gladstone
broadly maintains that the deficit may he met by roducieg
the expenditure. This opens a very large question, and
takes us away from the Budget a; together. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer confesses that he is not himself in a posi-
ticn to dictate the expenditure necessary for the defence
of the country under present circumstances. The scale of
our army and navy, of our ships and fortifications,
depends on matters beyond his control. Everything
here augurs expense. England is an expensive country.
A House of Commons which, at a moment's warn-
ing, throws down the gauntlet to a man at the
head of six hundred thousand soldiers, and a navy
scarcely less than our own, is an expensive body. The
system of trial by jury which produced the acquittal of
Bernard is an expensive institution. It must not only
be surrounded by the ocean, but backed by a good army
and navy. We may set down the professed conspirator
IMMI dealer in fulminating powder and grenades himself at
a million a year to the country. Luxuries of this high
class and this piquant flavour must he paid for. Aeh ong
national sentiment and the habit of feeling a deep interest
in the affairs of all other nations must be expensive. We
could hardly wish it otherwise. Who cares for cheap
benevolence, cheap patriotism, or cheap virtue of any
kind ? Now, wo are a great nation, and cannot do it
cheap. So we cannot follow Mr. Gladstone's advice just
now. At all events, we must wait till his own Parliamen-
tary tactics arc no longer of a sort to entail additions to
our national defencv.

S. That such Secretary of State shall be responsible
.-..0e government of India and the transaction of busi-
ness in the United Kingdom relat7eg tLereto in the same
manner and to the same extent as any of her Majesty's
Principal Secretaries of State are responsible in the
several departments over which they preside.
" 4. That, in order to assist such Secretary of State
in the discharge of his duties, it is expedient that a
council be appointed of not less than twelve nor more
than eighteen members.
"5. That, in order to secure the greatert amount of
knowledge and experience in the management of the
affairs of India, it is advisable that the principle portion
of the members of the council shall have served in India
for a term of years to bel;_erited by statute.
" 6. That, with a view to the efficiency an I indepen-
dence of the Council, it is expedient that it should be
partly nominated and partly elected.
" 7. That the members of the nominated portion of the
Cc.eincd shall be selected "ny her Majesty, subject, as
general rule, to the quel ficat;on above expressed, and
one-half at' least ot the elected members shall possess the
like TaalPettion.
" S. Tnat the members of the elected portion of the
Council shall be chosen by a constituency composed of
persons a dko have previously held military commissions
or civil aplointrnents in Itlia, in her Majesty's service
er in th et Of the Government of India, or who may pod-
sees a d.rect interest, to an amount to be specified, in
some propirty charged or secured on the revenues or
territories of India.
"9. That the Council shall be presided over by the
Secretary 'of State, or by some member of the C.,uncil
to be nominateThyhina Vice-Preodent.
" 10. Tibet arrangements sha 1 be made from time to
time by the S ,cretary of State and the Council for tire
tueetinge of the Council, for the made of procedure at
such meeting, and for the distribution and transaction
of bu-iness.
" 11. That all despatches, letters, orders, and com-
municat.onA shall be addressed to the Secretary f State,
and shhti be open to the in-pe„;tion of ev ry member of
the Council, erre, pt such ac are no .v by law addressed to
the Secret Committee of the Court of Directors.
"12. That the recommendation cf Fersons for Er,t
appointments shall be made to ha. Maje,ty by the Se-
cretary f State, with the concurrence of the Council ;
and the same rules shall be observed in the making ot
such recommendations as have been fel:owed by the
Court cf threctere in the making of such aepointrneete.
"13. Thet, for the purpose of ascertaining the fi:nere
f persons for the several appoi, tments fur which they
way he so recommended, the same rules f r the examina-
tion of cadets and of ch,rkb shall be adhered to which
are now followed by the Court of Directors of the India
Company, until the same be altered by the Secretary of
8 ate and Council of India.
"14. That provision shall be made for transferring to
the Crewe all the real and personal property of the
Company, except their capital stock, and the dividend
thereon, so as to yes-, the Caine in her Majesty,
for the purposes of the Government of India ; for con-
tinuing eliarg,! on the reveuuei of India alone of the
dividend on the capital stock of the said Company until
the redemption thereof, end cf all the territorial and
other debts and engagements which are payable by the
Company out of the revenues of India; for auditing the
ecce;ul,t3 annually before Parliament ; and fee securing
the preference given Ly the 3d and 4th of William IV.
to the dividends on tle capital stock of the said Com-
pany and the right e f the said company to demand he
redemption of such dividends, and their right on the
Security Fond undiminished and unaffected by the
transfer to the Crown of the direct government cf her
Mejesty'e Indian possessions."

NAVAL AND MILITARY INTELLIGENCE.

(Frew the Daily Ncws.)
Mr. Disraeli's Financial Statement has, at all events,
the merit of being neither very complicated nor unreason-
ably diffuse. A certain amplitude of manner and redun-
dance of expression appear, by the general consent of all
Chancellors of the Exchequer, to be regarded as absolutely
indispensable in addressing the Committee of Ways and
Means. If our income exceeds our expenditure, it should,
of course, be appropriated to the liquidation of debt ;
but to incur debt in order to pay off debt is an ope-
ration hardly less objectionable in the case of govern-
ments than it is ruinous in the case of individuals. By thus
suspending the War Sinking Fund and deferring the pee
riod for the liquidation of the Exchequer Bonds, Mr
Disraeli sweeps away 3,5C0 000/. of his 4,000,0e0/. defi-*
ciency. He has still 500,0001. remaining to provide for
before he can make both ends meet.
His mode of accomplising this very necessary purpose is
by imposing two now taxes. By the first he equalises the
duty on Irish and British spirits ; raising it on the former
from 63. 2d. a gallon to Bs., the duty now imposed on the
latter. The calculated produce of this increase of duty is
500,0001., the exact sum wanted for filling up the deficit.
In order, however, to be quite sure about the matter, and
to secure a little elbowroom, Mr. Disraeli falls back upon
a device, familiar to more than wee of his predecessors, of
imposing a penny stamp on all bankers' cheques.
Such is the financial scheme of the now Chancellor of
the Exchequer. The imposition of new taxes, however
small in amount, is necessarily unpalatable to the classes
more immediately affected by them. That the banking
interest should protest against the penny stamp on drafts
was of course to be expected, but it is difficult to conceive
how a tax so trifling can seriously impede the current of
those payments which are principally made by cheque.
In disclaiming all intention of seeking to re-impose the
lapsed 2.1. of the income tax, Mr. Disraeinas probably se-
cured the substantial popularity of his budget. A voi y ge-
neral apprehension had come to ba entertained that the
exigencies of the public service would render such a re-im-
position almost indispensable. Happily the elasticity of the
national resources has proved far greater than under all
circumstances could have been expected ; and had the re-
mitted portion of the tax been renewed, the estimates
would have shown a considerable surplus. Mr. Disraeli
has, we think, shown a wise discretion in not unnecessa-
rily resorting to a resource so generally odione as a re-im-
posed income tax. A Budget that, rather than replace on
the whole middle class of the throe kingdoms a burden
they had just shaken off, imposes a new duty on Irish
spirits and a p Amy stamp on bankers' cheques, ought to
have more to hope from the support of the many than to
apprehend from the clamour of the few. Apart from the
Banking and Whisky interest, the reception given to Mr.
Disraeli's Budget by the House of Commons was on the
whole favourable; and the new Administration may, ac-
cording to present appearances, feel some confidence that
they have contrived to extaicato themselves without dis-
credit from ono of the moat formidable passages of the
nd session.

(From, the Morning Herald )
The meet satisfactory feature in this most satisfactory
budget is of course the adherence to the compact entered
into in 1853 by Mr. Gladstone for the gradual re duetion
of the income-tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer de-
serves great credit for having, under every disadvantage,
adhered to that arrangement. A declining revenue arrldiano
increasing expenditure would not tempt Mr. Disraeli
violate the compact that had been made with the la:.
of
The financial statement was well received en ,!
Exchequer had been pleged to make such aina
.0
y""
the house. Mr. Ball
l" thought that fey `u
meet to the house as that which had beienne.p.:., a
____.
right hoe. gentleman—namely, that theenpi!„,
atb,inac,nmKern't
dually progressive and ultiwateloysao ti
meats. This was ne
of the property tax was to be -b
vejTe.t feelings of gratitude
would be received with I,ho Ilirt i 6; Glyn
,(.111e. I:eyitthi
ee.
"couldnot help
moftvece,iixouthehsee
was sure
the kingdoin.,:
right hon• gentleman
e ee's.e discretion both in his mode of pro- i
expressing 3 tthtohuegltt3tthcenirlugltr tillia(
his satisfactione
n" had shere.nde-btslend also in his mode of dealing with
aiding f"r ~ Mr. Baxter " had to express his en-
the new tv.xation: measures proposed that
Chancellor of the
by the Exchequer. He thought
evening
tire concurrence in the financial
they were characterised by great prudence and dis,cretion,
oid„ieg the circumstances of the country, and that
they would receive the approbation of the house." Mr.
Gladstone " was glad to perceive, from the tore mil fe 1.
jog of the hous,,, that it was favourabie to the general spirit
of the proposals of the right hon. gentleman the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer." Sir F. Baring approved, T.,-,rd J.
Russell ventured up el qualified praise, and even Mr. W.
Williams spoke in terms of congratulation. Such was the
reception to the Budget accorded by members sitting on
the opposition benches, and independent gentlemen ; and

,~~
.-~ ."~

THE INDIA _RESOLUTIONS. .9mai ..c.-11toTT
' M : (en:lzgw...aro: than,
HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY' Aran:2ll; '"IP6
"Mr, Chancellor of the Exchequer Gov Ogiotc3 oT
ment of •,
India,—To move that this house will' upon ;rrliclay' the
30th day of this inst. April, resolve itself into aoom-
cnittee to consider the Act of the 16th and 17th of Vic. ,r!"
toria, cap. to provide for the government of India.' ',,4:7°,C:i;t2.
"RESOLUTIONS TO BE PROPOSED BY THE CHANCELLOR 01P 1'`61,1-`ILA
THE EXCHEQUER ON THE 30TH OF APRIL. r•LS:
"1. That, as the territories under the government of oT
the East India Company are by law to remain under cremes
government only until Parliament shall other wise
,eovli i
e, this house is of opinion that it is expedient that - -71,
ransfer of such government to the Crown should
ake place, in order that the direct superintendence
whole empire may be placed under one executive
That for this purpose it is expedient to provide
her Majesty, by one of her Principal Secretaries of
1, shall have and perform all the powers and duties
ng to the government and revenues of India which
• may be now exercised and performed by the East
Company, or by the Court of Directors or Court
)prietors of the said company, either alone or with
probation of the Commissioners for the Affairs of

uc~ta~

Yesterday orders were received by the officers
in command of the Ist, 2d, and 3d battalions of
infantry at Chathain Garrison, directing reinforce-
men. s, to the number of nearly 1,000 men, selected
from the Bth (the King's), 10th. 19th, 20th, 23d,
24th, 29th, 32d, 35th, 43d, 52d, 53d, Glst, 70th,
75th, 81st, 84th, and 94th Regiments, to be held
in readiness to embark for India.
Colon-1 IL W. Pat Ice, commanding the Chatham
division of Royal Marine Light Infantry, has re-
ceived ordeis for the companies of Royal Marine
Artillery under his command to proceed to join
their head-quarters at Portsmouth.
Yesterday 20 non-commissioned officers, belong-
ing to the Esct India Company's Sappers and
Miner,, who have been undergoing a course of
instruction, at Chatham, in sapping and mining,
left Brompton tarracks for the purpose of em-
barking at Gravesend for India.
Four screw gun-boats, built by order of the
Brazilian Government for coast and river service in
'that country, steamed d ,wn to Greenhithe on
Saturday on trial of machinery, and were swung
for the adjustment of compasses, &c. They are
under orders to sAil to morrow for Plymouth, and,
after coaling, they will prcceel tp the Brazils.
They will shortly be followed by four others, under
construction at Blackwall and Northfleet. The
armament of each boat is to consist of six guns
and a compl-ment of 200 min. Admiral the Mar-
quis de Lisboa, who is specially charged with the
supervision of the order, has taken great pains in
their equipment, and has directed that each vessel
is to carry two boats, to be fitted with Clifford's
lowering gear, as in use in our own service. They
are intended to form a flotilla of ten vessels, two of
which, it is said, are ordered to be built in France.
The steam store-transport Dee arrived at Wool-
wich on Sunday, and was yesterday hauled into
basin to undergo some alterations and additions to
the super-heating apparatus on board. She is
ordered to ship boiler,,, &c., for the 80-gun screw-
ship Lion, at Devonport.
The freightship Irene yesterday commenced ship-
ping war stores from Woolwich for Colombo.

are surprising remedies 1, r bad legs and all kindsevery [ADVERTISEMENT.]--Holloway's Ointment
wounds. The sale of these invaluable medicinefsionf
their
part of the werld is the most convincing
efficacy in curing bad legs, anPilolsf
diseases of the skin. Thousands of personaeured
by their use,
these dreadful unladie; have been it is a fact, be-
and
after every other means had failed'
e, however obstinate
yond all doubt, that there is no case, ell wounds,pesrocoffrosovfiuol;,fraolud
I be cured by these
wonderful medicines ; thereforedhy
all druggists, and at Prc.
or long standing, but wa
mcdittely try th,eni. I
Report ou cures
lAnyzarisz. .
n from Du ary s
interesting inform:am
sia), Flatulency, Constipation, Ner.
lessor
yi. pa pb yß the
to quote fll ic t
e tdh ea h flul 11
io
w ii mn
:
of Indigestion ( y_
Debility, without medicine by Du
aDnadsPeEiver Complaints, Cough, Asthma'
" Aribica Food : Eight years' dyspep.
Revalenta . .
Barry's
n ss, debility, with cramps, spasms, and nausea,
f2.ja,ribt'ircv-usiyie servant had consulted the advice of many,
hior,e- ---havelfectually removed by Du Barry's Revalenta
I shall be happy to
vC°Olniss'unii3pitlijo°nu,s'
W. - LAVELL, Ridling-
answer Norfolk. From the Dowager Countess of Castle-
tou Rectory,
humanity,
bh bile, great
esgutraridet
A-ara.biebacaeFuyoodingiuniraiesv. ef r
Rsehvo.rt
jotiimiNe. v v
stuart.—Cure 52,612. Rosstrevor, County of Down, Ireland,
9th December, 1854.—The Dowager Countess of Castlestuart
feels induced, in the interest of suffering
thathort
aDfitioi:al l Barry's
medicines excellent
iit evai
failed,eii t a ,0
fAirialbdiigcaestoonod,
lin,6om9.y_
nervousness and irritability, of many years' standing. This
lucluiricsThreweill yearsbe
food deserves the confidence of all sufferers, and may be con-
sideredn answered.ei.v ou s
liac s
s; realCwui
Cure
with
blessing,pNa ixi o.s cheerfully
e
neck and left arm, and
general debility, which rendered my life very miserable,
has been radically removed by Du Barry's Revalenta Arabica
Food. ALEXANDER STUART, Archdeacon of Ross, Siabbereen.
Supported by testimonials from the following celebrated Pro.
lessors of Chemistry: Dr. A. Ure; Dr. Shorland; Dr. Harvey;
Dr. Campbell ; Dr. Gattiker ; Dr. Wurzer ; Dr. Ingram ;
Lord Stuart de Decies; the Dowager Countess of Castiestuart;
Major Gen. Thomas King, and many other respectable per
sons, whose health has been restored by it, after all other
means of cure ball failed. Suitably packed with full instruo.
tions, In canisters, 11b. 2s, 9d.; 21b. 4s. 6d.; 51b. I.ls. ;
121 b. 225. The 121 b canisters are sent cart iagea tifFeecoc,
77,
ccipt of Post-office order. Barry Du Barry, d
" geabinst the fear.
. a.ncollor Sir
William Page Wood granted an Injunction urn
imitating " Ds
ful dangers of spurious imitations.--The
V 1
cethe 10th March,
Regent-street, London. Important Cautiona
1854, against Alfred Hooper Nevill for
Barry's Revalenta Arabica Food. '