The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-14 00:00:00

STATE OF THE SERPENTINE.

Sir J. Y. SHELLEY said that he had intimated to
the Government that when the estimates with reference
to the parks were before the house, he should recom-
mend that a vote should be taken for cleansing the Ser-
pentine. During the hot weather it was &most as great
a nuisance as the Thames itself. The parks wero under
the control of the Government, and it was inconsistent
with their duty to permit the continuauce of such a large
stagnant pool, the stench from which extended all over
Park-lane and Hyde Park-gardens. Much of the water
of the Serpentine came from the overflow of one of the
London sewers, and from the drainage of the Kilburn
Cemetery. Considering that thousands of persons bathed
there every morning, its purification was of the greatest
importance. The experiment tried on the water in St.
James's Park by Sir Benj. Hall had proved eminently
successful, and as the expense would be comparatively
trilling, ho trusted the Serpentine would be treated in a
similar manner. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS 'aid the hon. member was under
a delusion with regard to the land he had mentioned. Up
to that moment he (Lord J. Manners) had received no
offer of any kind for the land, and he was afraid he
could hold out no hope he would receive any until the
offensive open sewer which bounded it was effectually
-covered in. He ha-ft-made a representatiOn to-the Metro-
politan Board of Works on the subject, and their answer
was, that when the general system of metropolitan drain-
age was adopted, the sewer would be covered in. When
that was done, the land would be put in a situation for
sale, and he hal reason to hope it would then become a
popular investment for building purposes. Of course.
when that event took place, it would be his duty to sell
the land fur what terms he could obtain. Bat it must
not be supposed that there would be a surplus to enable
them to do anything with the toile. There had been ex-
pended upon Battersea Park the sum of 200 0001.. and
the interest would make an addition of 58,0001. There
bad been obtained 65,0001. for the sale of land to the
railway. The total sum to be provided for was about
290,0001., and be could not hold out a hope that there
would be any surplus suffic:ent to enable them to make
any diminution in the charge for the tolls. With respect
to the question by the hoe, member for Westminster,
he could state that, since the application of lime, people
had been seen to drink water from the Serpentine out
of the palms of their hands—a circumstance that had not
occurred for many years. So marvellous had been the
application of lime, that he applied to the Treasury for
additional advances to make farther application of lime
to the Serpentine. The subject of rectifying the
Serpentine was now under the consideration of Govern-
ment, but the hon. member was quite right in pointing
out that, till the evil results of the sewer at the north
end were remedied, it would be in vain to incur any
large expenditure for improving the Serpentine. He
hoped the Metropolitan Board of Works, or the district
board, would settle the sewer question effectually,
Mr. W. ‘VILLIAM.S paid he thought the proposition
of the hon. member for Surrey (ttlr. Wilcock) was a very
reasonable one. It was only just and fair the, the
public should know what could be obtained for this
land, and it was not likely the noble lord would receive
any offer until it wee put up for sale.

STAMP DUTIES.
Mr. HADFIELD said it was clear that there ought
to be a revision of the stamp duties. He should like to
know what Government meant to do as regarded the
duty upon insurance against fire. He had presented
several petitions on the subject, in which it was set forta
that by a reduction of the duty the revenue would be
much improved.

Mr. HAMILTON said it wag the iutentiou of saovern

ment to take the revision of the stamp duties generally
into consideration.

SUPPLY.

The house then went into Committee of Supply—Mr.
Fitzroy in the chair.
On the vote of 3.5G81. being proposed to pay a por-
tion of the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners,
Mr. HUGGESSEN objected to the vote, which be
thought ought to be borne by the commission, and paid
out of the surplus fuud.
Mr. WALPOLE defended the vote, and said it would
be a great hardship to deduct such a sum out of the
surplus, which went to increase the amount of email
livinge.
Mr. WILSON said it was the intention of the late
Government to have considered the propriety of discon-
tinuing the vote atter this present year.
Mr. HADFIELD opposed the vote, and said a church
establishment of six millions a year ought surely to bear
so paltry a sum as the present vote.
Mr. DEEDES supported the vote, and said more than
double the sum was expended by the commission upon
works which benefited the public.
Mr. LABOUCEIERE said it was true the public
might gain advantage, but primarily the gain was to the
Church ; and he contended that the Church should bear
the expense. He should, however, support the vote for
the present year.
.Mr. V. SMITH was chairman of a committee on esti-
mates in 1848, and that committee recommended that
the commission should pay its own expenses. They did
not belong to the public, but the Church, and the latter
ought to pay them.
Mr. A. SM.ITII moved that the whole vote be re-
duced by a sum of 3,0001.
Upon which the committee divided, when the numbers
were—

For the vote
For the amendment
Majority —6
The vote was then agreed to.
The ntr, vote was 16,3001. for the C .arity Commis-
sioners.—Passed. . .

On a vote of 20,0001. for the Encumbered Estates
Commissioners in Ireland,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote, as a bill was
now passing through the house to abolish that court.
Mr. HAMILTON replied that the ♦ote was neces-
sary to pay the expenses to be incurred up to Novem-
ber next.

Vote agreed to.
The next vote was 11,402/. for the expenses of several
temporary commissioners.
Mr. LOCKE KING objected to the expenses incurred
by the Commission for Consolidating the Statute Law,
which, though in existence for many years, really did
nothing to effect the object they bad in view. The bun-
and learned gentleman, now the Attorney General, pro-
mised, in 1856, that he would effect that consolidation
in 18 months, and yet nothing was done up to the pre-
sent moment. In 1859, several bills were laid on the
table of the House of Lords but were not proceeded with,
and when introduced again in 1857, though they came
down to this house, onlypassed a second reading. An enor •
mous sum of money had been spent by this commission.
The first, appointed in 1815, cost 50,000/, and the present
cornmission,which did nothing, cost nearly 20,0001. In
conclusion, he moved that a sum of 1,861/ , the expenses
of the Statute Law Commission, be struck out, with a
view of discontinuing it altogether.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought the whole
country was deeply interested in the labours of the com-
mission. In the last 200 years the condition of their
statute law was complained of as being in a most de-
plorable condition, yet nothing was done. From 1816
down to the present day, no less than 11 commissions
sat on the subject, presided over by such eminent men
as Sir S. Romilly, Lord Brougham, Lord Tenterden, and
others, and many valuable reports and suggestions made
on the subject. The statute book consisted, as they all
know, of a vast collection of statutes of the different
reigns ; and many of those statutes contained matter
most opposite in spirit and meaning. He could quote
the language of judges, who complained that such was
the state of their statute book it was impossible for any
man, however learned he might be, to know what
the law of his country was. (Hear, hear.) There
were 40 volumes of statutes, and of those there were at
least 80 which contained statutes which were really ob-
solete; and of 15,000 or 18,000 public general statutes,
some 6,000 or 7,000 were really obsolete. He thought
an embodiment might be made of those statutes in 14 or
15 acts of Parliament, which would give a most satis-
factory consolidation to their statute law. The hon.
and learned gentleman than recalled the attention of
the committee to the circumstances connected with
the mien of the commission appointed to inquire
into the state of the statute law, and having paid
marked compliments to some of the members of that
commission, said down to the year 1853, after a
lapse of 250 years, and an expenditure of 200,0001.,
no successful efforts were made to consolidate
the statute law. Since then, however, the Statute
Law Commissioners had issued four reports on the
statute law, indicating that they had selected
matter out of which a satisfactory consolidation
of the laws had been drawn up. Dawn to that year
there was not a single consolidated act submitted to
Parliament; but between the year 1853 and the latter
end of 185!, the Statute Law Commissioners had worked
and prepared no less than 93 pills, embracing, he might
say, all the most important subjects of the statute law
of Great Britain. Bills had been prepared by the Go-
vernment to be laid on the table of the house ; and those
hills would have been laid on the table before now, but
that it was deemed desirable to submit the wool; scheme
first to a select committee of the house. It was thought
by many eminent men, and amongst them by the late
Attorney-General, now Chief Justice of the Common
Pleas, doubtful whether any scheme of consolidation of
the statute law would be successful, and particularly
seeing that all attempts to consolidate those laws had
hitherto failed, and defied the efforts of the most en-
lightened men ; and, following out his opinion, he
thought that some one portion of the statute law should
be selected for the experiment ; and he truly remarked,
"If you succeed in that, you may also succeed in conso-
lidating other branches of the statute law." The chal-
lenge was accepted. Several learned men applied them-
selves to the work, and among others the late Lord
Chancellor (Lord Cranworth) assisted in it, and by com-
mon consent the criminal law was chosen, and it was
thought if they could simplify that they could reduce the
40 volumes of the statute law to four, and they could
reduce the 40,000 statutes to a few simple consolidated
laws. Among those who deserved to be mentioned, in
connection with this great work, were Mr. Bellingden
Kerr and Mr. Grieves, who, associated with Lord
Wensleydale and other eminent men, reduced the whole
of those laws into nine bills to be submitted to Parlia-
ment. Those bills bad been laid on the table of. the
House of Lords, but it was thought advisable not to
proceed with them until they were first submitted to a
select committee of the House of Commons, who were to
report upon the whole subject of consolidation. It was
due to the late Government to say that they bad given
every encouragement to the commission to promote and
advance the whole scheme of consolidation. The whole
of the
however, passed away, owing to
a m
circumstances, without anything being
combination
h lne sectiontio e of
e f 1857,
done ; and it remained for him now to bring the subject
again before Parliament. (Hear, hear.) To stop the
progress of that work, after so much bad been accom-
p'ishei, would be to do a great public evil, which he did
not think the house would sanction. He could only
ask the house to pass the criminal code, and at an early
period of next session the scheme would be put in pro•
aress for effecting an entire c msolidation of the statute
law. He hoped that a little tine and confidence would
be given to the Statute L sly Commission.
on eandha
addddo somethingne
Mr. M‘MAHON said the work of consolidation was
only
iyhjorUg Ph°dt that greater the existence of the commission, and
t greater progress would be made if a
principle and plan were fixed upon, and then the whole
nothingte but
i take
responsibility thrown upon the hon. and learned gentle-
man.
subject they had selected was the simplest of all, and if
up Sir
the hills were anything like perfect they would have
Ilitol'beeeert c
Pomeeml,iess bill,irs
been laid upon the table long since. He looked at the
bills as they came from the House of Lords, and he was
sure the hon. and learned gentleman would be ashamed
to submit them to the house as models of consolidation.
While they went on with the present system they would
never make progress with the work of consolidation.
They should throw the responsibility upon the hon. and
learned gentleman and then there would be some chance
of progress.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped
the house would not go on considering this subject of
the bills which would be brought before them next week.
They should not be diverted from the subject before
the committee, which was the very moderate expense of
this commission.

Mr. BAINES said that whatever result might follow
from the laboirs of the commission it was undeniable
that the materials they had collected must be of the
greatest possible service, and, therefore, their time would
not be wasted. They were engaged in providing an index
of all the acts and parts of acts now in progress, and
that alone would be a valuable work and likely to be of
the most essential public service. He thought the Sta-
tute Law Commission was deserving of the confidence
and approbation of the public. (Cries of " Divide.")
Mr. MELLON said there had been only one paid corn
missioner in the commission since 1853, and was the
keepirg up of that payment a likely mode of getting the
work completed t He thought if they declined to sanc-
tion that vote it would be a significant hint to the com-
mission.

Mr. BUTT thought that they were bestowing great
labour and wasting large sums of money upon that
which, for any practical purposes, would never be of any
use. His hen. and learned friend told him that if they
gave him 18 months they would see the work done; but
be had told him that if he had 18 years given him the
work would not 'oe done. If so long had been taken
with eight bills, how long a period would be required to
dispose of 93 bills? (Hear.) The subject was beset with
such insurmountable difficulties, that they could never be
overcome.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND said
that the labours of the commission bad been attended
with great advantage to the public. He never under-
stood that 93 bills were to be laid on the table of the
house at once to dispose of. It would be a wrong step to
dispose summarily of the labours of that commission.

The committee then divided—
For the amendment 52
Against 85
Majority
The vote was then agreed to.
26,1981., salaries of the Patent-offics.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS protested against the large sala-
ries paid to th© officers and clerks, who had really no•
thing to do. Am,n2. those thus overpaid were the Attor
my and Solicitor-General for England and the Attorney
and Solicitor-General for Ireland. The patent free ought
to be reduced. They were taken out of the packets of
many very poor men. He moved the reduction of the

vote by 4,000/. of the sums paid to tl le law officers of the
Crown under the Patent Law Ame ndment Ac.t.
Mr. WALPOLE referred to the reductions which
were made in this department in 1852. Them were no
two men in the country more worked than the Attorney
and Solicitor-General, and their services deserved to be
well remunerated. He did not believe that the fees paid
to those officers were anything like those which they
would receive from the public.
Mr. GILPIN advocated the payment of public officers
by salaries instead of fees ; but trusted the hon. member
for Lambeth would not divide the committee on this
question, as he considered that the remuneration pro-
posed to be voted to the Attorney and Solicitor-General
was not larger than he knew they deserved.
After a short conversation, in which Sir G. C. Lewis,
Mr. Cairns, and Mr. Cox took part, _ _

Mr. WILLIAMS hoped the Government would agree
to consider the subject before they met again. If they
gave a promise to that effect, he would withdraw his
amendment.
Alter some observations frt m the ATTORNEY•GENE-
RAL, the amendment was negatived without a divisi-n.
The next item was 26,1981. for fees, salaries, expenses,
and compensation payable under the Patent Law
Amendment Act (15th and 16th Vie., c. 83).
111 r. MELLOR complained of the vote for the museum
of patented inventions at Kensington.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL defended the vote,
which bad been rendered necessary by the removal of
the patent models and library which were formerly in
Chancery-lane, and which had been very useful to the
working classes and skilled artisans of this country.
The money was well laid out.
Mr. DILL%VYN said that he quite approved of a
museum of patented inventions, but he thought that
Kensington was a ♦ery inappropriate place for such a
museum.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that there was
much truth in that remark, but the fact was they got
the acoommodation free at Kensington, and they had at
present no funds to provide a place elsewhere.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
commissioners had agreed to receive the collection of
patents at Kensington till a hotter place could be pro-
vided, but a plan was now under consideration for pla-
cing it in a totally different locality. (Hear.) In reply
to Mr, Greer, the right hon. gentleman stated that the
curator of this museum, he believed, held no other office
in the Kensington Institute.
The vote was then agreed to.
Fishery Board, Scotland, 13,8221.
Mr. WHITE moved teat this vote bo expunged, on
the ground that the branding of those herrings might be
dispensed without injury to any one,
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said that it had been in-
tended to withdraw this vote in relation to the branding
of herrings, but it could not be done in time for the pre-
sent session. Many, however, thought it would be in-
expedient to abolish suddenly a practice which had so
beg prevailed.
After some observations from Mr. Cox,
Mr. WHITE amended his motion by retaining the
portion of the vote which related to pensions, reducing
the vote to 2,160/.
After some concersation, the committee divided, and
there appeared—
For the vote
For the amendment
--61

Majority

The amendment Was lost, and the vote agreed to.
2,0001. was voted for Trustees of Manufactures, Scot-
land.
5,0041. for Commissioners of Highland roads and
bridges.
Mr. COX opposed this motion, on the ground that
persons in the metropolis had no right to be taxed for
roads they were never likely to use.
Mr. COLLINS said he objected to the paying for
metropolitan improvements out of the Consolidated
Fund, and on the same principle he would object to a
vote for local improvements in Scotland.
The committee then divided, and there appeared—
For the vote
Against it
Majority... 45
2,0001. was voted for bounties on slaves and tonnage
of slave vessels.
The next was a vote of 900/. for the translation and
publication of the ancient laws of Ireland.
Mr. HAMILTON said this work bad been already
commenced, and found to be so valuable and interesting
that it was resolved to ask for a further vote on account
of it.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said it was a work of great
historical interest, and ought to be proceeded with.
The vote was agreed to.
1,000/. was next voted for coats incidental to process-
servers in Ireland.
The next vote was one of 55,900/. for Merchant
Seamen's Fund pensions.
Mr. HENLEY explained, in answer to a question
from Sir Charles Napier, that this vote was consequent
upon the winding up of the fund, but that parties would
be allowed to contribute to increase the pensions.
The vote was agreed to.
17,8501. was voted for revising barristers, Mr. WAL-
POLE stating that that sum included the whole charge.
3,0001. was voted for the inspection of burial-grounds,
and 1,3501. for the charge of certain professors in the
University of Cambridge.
Oe a vote of 27,9001. for lighthouses abroad,
Mr. HENLEY said that the object of it was simply
to carry out certain works for the convenience of the
merchant service, which the house, iu its liberality, had
already undertaken. The work had been imposed upon
the Board of Trade, and, though the: board had no en-
gineering facilities, it must get through the work as
li best it could.
The vote was agreed to.
The next vote was 20,0001. for the improvement of
the Kaffirs.
Sir J. THELAWNY objected to the vote, oh,erving
that we had expended money enough upon the Kaffirs,
without effect, and that the colony of the Cape had done
nothing in the same direction. He quoted a letter from
the Governor of the colony against the vote, and con-
cluded by moving that it be disallowed.
Lord STANLEY said that the Government had en.
dea.voured to redeem the pledge originally given for the
reduction of this vote, and it lead been put down at
20,000/. instead of 40,0001.
Sir D. NORREYS hoped the hon. baronet would
persevere in his resistance to this vote. Ho thought Sir
George Grey was not entitled to the least consideration
from tne house, and the only way to put a stop to his
repeated demands on the house was sternly to refuse to
accede to the present one. If Sir G. Grey could not go-
vern the colony without coming to the house for aid, the
sooner we got rid of Sir G. Grey and of Kaffraria the
better. (Cheer: and laughter.)
111 T. LAEOUCH.ERE vindicated the conduct of Sir
G. Grey at the Cape,
After a few words from Mr. Evart, Mr. D. Nicoll,
and CJI. French, the committee divided, when the num-
bers were—
For the vote
Against it
Majerity —l47
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was 29,940/. on account of the Treasury
cheque.
2,000/. was next proposed for the collection in the
National Portrait Gallery.
Mr. BRISCOE objected to the vote, and moved as
an amendment that it should be omitted.
The CEIANCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER de•
fended the vote, and said that many of the works in the
Gallery were works of high art. When completed the
collection would be one most gratifying to the country.
Mr. BYNG bore testimony to the value and interest
of the collection.

Toe vote was then agreed to.
The Welt vote proposed was 2,0001. for expenses to
inquire into the effects of the cholera in the West Indies;
and, after a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS and Mr.
HAMILTON, the vute was agreed to.
The next vote was 1,6001. for a Board of Survey.
Sir D. NORREYS objected to the vote, and, after
some conversation, the committee divided, when the
numbers were—
For the vote
Against it
Majority --27
The vote was agreed to.
6,318/, for public offices in Belfast was agreed to.
The next vote was 15,0001., to enable the Commis-
sioners of Public Works in Ireland to purchase certain
houses and buildings to extend the Four Courts.
Atter some conversation the vote was agreed to.
The next votes were :-
5,000/. far the National Gallery in Dublin,
1,0001. for the Royal Dublin Sniety,
10.0001. for an Industrial Museum in Edinburgh,
2,0001. for the Industrial Insti ution in the same city,
7,5001. for a Generai Registry Office in the same place,
2001. for a General Repository of Public Records in
Edinburgh.
Agreed to.
On a vote of 6,0001. for the Nelson Column, Trafalgar-
square,
Mr. D. GRIFFITHS expressed a hope that around
the pedestal of the column four rod lions would be
placed at each corner to give it effect—(a laugb)—or, at
all events, bronze lions. (Laughter.)
The CHANCE I,LOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
material to form the lions was not yet decided on, but
the hon. member's suggestion would be taken into con-
sideration. He for one had no objection that bronze
lions should be placed round the pedestal, but he looked
with great apprehension on four red lions being placed
there. (Laughter.)
On the vote that 8,836/, be allowed for examining the
p'an of the main drainage of the metropolis,
Mr. COX said that this was an important question.,
and it was too lete to discuss it at that moment.

The CH4NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped
they would he allowed to proceed with the odtimate.
The amendment was then negatived, without a di_
vision.

Mr. COX protested against payii.g 9,0001. for the ex.
amination of the plan. It appeared that a plan had
been submitted by the Board of Works to the Obi« f
Commissioner (Sir B. Hall), and that right hon. gentle-
man had appointed gentlemen to examine it, and to find
fault with it, and the result was this great expenditure.
Sir B. HALL said it was quite true that a plan bad
been submitted to him in reference to the drainage of the
metropolis by the Metropolitan Board of Works, and in
accordance with what be felt to be his duty be Ina ap-
pointed three gentlemenof eminence, namely, Mr. Simp-
son, Captain Gordon, and Mr. Blackwell, to examine
this plan. Captain Gordon had made no charge for his
labours, and Mr. Simpson and Mr. Blackwell bad
charged only 1,500. for the duty
which they had per-
formed, and this sum he did not thiuk was too much.
The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cos) said that he had instructed
the gentlemen in question to find fault with the plan.
He said that it was a great mistake for the
.honourable
gentleman to say to, and he called upon the 11013. gentle-

man for his authority for this statement. t(Hear, hear.)
He tSir B. Hall) gave no instruction xvha Lever on the
subject. He admitted that the sum befr re the 13310
was a large one, but they must recollect exit the Work
to be ex cured was a great one, and 'l%at great care
ought to be taken before the Gov: nis:ott was cony
witted to it. 'lois was his jUStiriCatiOti i r h aving taken
the ciurse which he had pursued in the mar..ter.
Mr. S. WORTLEY thought it was the, duty of the
Government to place the metropolis under proper mall"
agement. London was too large to be rrw,naged by one
body. it was at the same time too much Vaal the Metro-
politan Board should be controlled by a public officer,
who might know nothing whatever of the question. At
the same time he was grateful to the righ t hon. gentle.
man (Sir B. Hal:) for the improvements which he bad
made in the metropolis, and especially for Those carried
out by him at the west end of the to An.
Mr. COX said he never meant to cast arty imputation
whatever upon the right hon. baronet (Sir .B. Or
from the manner in which he had performed his duty,
he entertained a high opinion of the right lion. gentle-
man's administrative powers.
The amendment was withdrawn, and th a vote agreed
to.

Mr. NV ILLIAMS moved that the Ch airman report
progress, and ask IPave to sit again.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped
the house would be allowed to proceed with the remain-
ing votes.

It wan, however, ultimately arranged that the Chair•
man should report progree, and this having• been done
the house resumed.

CIVIL BILLS, &o. (IRELAND) BILL.
The adjourned debate on this bill, after a few word 4
from Mr. Walpole, Mr. B. Osborne, Mr.. Whiteside,
and Mr. Cogan, was postponed.
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES' ACT AMIINDMENT