The Sun.
London, England, 1867-03-22 00:00:00

HIE SUN, LO.NI ON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 22, 1867.

other officers of the same rank and standing have higher
claims. Lord Hardwicke, an old and distinguished ad-
miral, and a former colleague of the right hon. baronet,
had such a claim to consideration. (Oh.) I find that

Lieut. Wood did not serve his time as a flag-lieutenant,

and, therefore, he was promoted contrary to the re-
gulations, but on the merits of the distinguished nobleman
whose son he was. (Laughter.) He (Sir John Hay) could
_ .

bear testimony to the merits of both Lieutenants Wood

and Yorke, who were midshipmen of his. When the
papers are laid on the table it will be seen that the right
hon. baronet's promotion was perfectly fair and reasonable.
Mr. GLADSTONE—This question has assumed an
aspect of considerable gravity. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
gentleman (Mr. Tracey) impugned the conduct of the late
First Lord of the Admiralty with respect to a particular
promotion, and ho defends himself by stating that the
course he pursued is parallel to that of the former First
Lord, connected with the previous Administration. The
hon. member for Honiton (Mr. Cochrane) expresses the

opinion that my hon. friend (Mr. Tracey) has taken up
this question only as a matter of political partisanship.

My hon. and gallant friend who has just sat down (Sir J.
Hay) made a speech which was satisfactory in that part

where he said the information asked for would not be

withheld, but a speech which 1 cannot pass over, because
in a part of it he laid down a principle of promotion in the

navy to which it would be a most serious matter for this
house to consent. (Hear, hear.) If heard in silence, it
might imply that the house accepted the statement that
the sons of gentlemen of distinction might on that ground,

without offence, be carried over the heads of their seniors
in service and equals in merit. (Hear, hear.) That ap-

pears to be a statement exceedingly grave in its character.

Ilear, hear.) After hearing the speech of the member for

,he Tower Hamlets (Mr. Airton), 1 think it would be wise

to follow the suggestion of the member for Pontefract
(Mr. Childers)—(No, no)—because the effect of producing
the papers would be that the attention of the whole house

would be drawn to the subject. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The right hon. gentleman seems

be under the impression that I admitted the promotion

of Lieutenant Yorke to be an objectionable promotion,
and that I defended it on the ground that the Duke of
Somerset had made similar promotions. What I intended
to say was, that I believed the promotion of Lieut. Yorke

to be quite consistent with the interests of the naval ser-
vice, but that that promotion had been made the subject
fur Parliamentary attack, while other still stronger cases
_ _ .

of the Duke of Somerset's bad been left unnoticed. (Hear.)

Serjeant GASELEE protested against the doctrine that
an officer is to be promoted because he happens to be the
son of a peer. (Cries of " Divide.")
. . .

Mr. TRACEY asked for leave to withdraw his motion,
on the ground that the papers may give additional evi-
dence, and gave notice he would again call the attention

of the House to the subject.

The motion was then withdrawn.
NAVAL ENGINEERS.
Sir E. DERING called attention to the position of naval
engineers, and complained of the distinction drawn to their
disadvantage between them and all other officers in the
navy. An engineer, he said, has to serve fourteen years
before he can become chief engineer ; but for that long
period ho is allowed to count only four years. The result
is that he cannot get to the top of the list until ho is 56
years of age, and he must then retire at 60. That is un
just, and they should therefore, like the assistant-surgeons,
be allowed to count the vi hole of the time which they have
served. With respect to pay,the hon. baronet recommended
that the increase, which now took place at intervals of five
years, should be extended proportionably over each year,
and that the inspectors of machinery should be allowed
half-pay ; and, in conclusion, ho asked why the names of
the naval engineers were not inserted in the Navy List?
Lord 11. LENNOX replied that the question of half-
pay to inspectors of machinery has been under the con-
sideration of the board, but that no decision has yet boon
come to upo❑ it. With respect to engineers_beiug allowed
to count their full time, they differ in this respect from
officers of a like grade—assistant-surgeon, chaplain, and
naval instructor—that they are educated at the expense
of the State, and there is, therefore, no idea of claim being
allowed. For the rest, they obtain the rank of commander
after 15 years' service, and the names of those in the upper
grades appear in the Navy List.
ROMAN CATHOLICS IN THE NAVY.

Mr. O'REILLY called-
attention to the provision for the
spiritual wants of Roman Catholics in the royal navy, and
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how far the recom-
mendations approved of by Sir J. Pakingion in his letter to
Lord Derby, dated 1859, have been carried out ? In bring-
ing the subject before the house the hon. gentleman stated
that of the total vote of £39,500 for chaplains in the navy
only £540, or less than 3 per cent., is allotted to Roman
Catholics, although the number of men of that persuasion
in the service has varied from 12} to 10 par cent. He urged
that the sum in question is altogether inadequate, and that
better provision should be made for the spiritual wants of
Roman Catholics in the navy.
PAY OF LABOURERS IN THE DOCKYARDS.

Mr. OT WAY wished to say 'hat, having had opportuni-
ties of conferring with the engineers of the navy, and
knowing how grateful they were for the favours which had
been conferred upon them, they would regard it as a great
boon to have their names included in the Navy List. But
the question he rose more particularly to ask the noble lord
was whether the augmentation of pay granted by the late
Board of Admiralty to the labourers who were receiving
only 13s. a week was limited to that class, or whether it
was extended to other classes of labourers?
Mr. WHALLEY said ho had no objection that Roman
Catholic chaplains in the navy should receive such adequate
remuneration as would render them m.oreamenable to the
rules and discipline of the navy than the Roman Catholic
chaplains in prisons had proved themselves to be. The
question, however, which he wished to put to the noble
lord was one of more importance than mere pay, and this
was, whether Roman Catholic services in the navy were
to be regulated by the importunity of their applications to
the department and the power they exercised in that house
or according to the exigencies of the navy ?
Lord H. LENNOX said he would first answer the ques-
tion of the hon. member for Peterborough, and his answer
was this, that with regard to the appointment of Roman
Catholic chaplains the Admiralty would be solely guided
by the exigencies of the service, believing that the best
way to render men loyal and obedient was to instruct them

in the principles of their religion. (Hear, hear.) With
regard to the spiritual wants of Roman Catholic sailors,
he was glad to be able to assure thehon. and gallant mem-
ber for Longford that the recommendations contained in
Sir JuhnPukiugtou's letter were carried out as far as prac-
ticable both afloat and on shore. The case of the three
chaplains at Sheerness, Portsmouth, and Devonport was
under the consideration of the Admiralty, and it was only
just that men who devoted their whole time to the Roman
Catholic sailors at these ports should. have some retiring

pension when old age or infirmity rendered thorn unfit for
active duty. In answer to the hon. member for Chatham,
an increase is proposed to bring up the pay of different
classes of dockyard labourers to 2s. 4d. a day, at a whole
cost of .£7,750 to the courtry, and no money could be better
bestowed. (Tlpar, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said it would be convenient for
the house to know, after what had occurred that evening,
that the consideration of the Mutiny Bill will be postponed
till Thursday next. (Hear, bear.)
THE NAVY ESTIMATES.

The house then went into committee on the Navy
Estimates.
On the first vote of £2,900,952 for 67,300 men, including
coastguards and marines,
Mr. CHILDERS entered into a minute criticism of
the estimates. The largo increase in the navy estimates is
the more serious when taken into account with the largo
general increase of our expenditure of £40,233,834 for
army, navy, civil, and revenue departments, as compared
with the £38,182,855 asked last year, when we had the
two windfalls of £500,000 from New Zealand, and nearly
the same sum from the Chinese indemnity. Practically
three millions more will have to be found than were asked
for by the last Government, and it is therefore of the
utmost importance to consider whether wo may not incur
risk of a serious financial crisis. In the course of his
review he admitted the expediency of some of the items of
increase, as in the number of boys and trained gunners
under the branch of personal charges. But the increased
charges for Woolwich cannot be justified in view of the
ultimate changes contemplated there. He disapproved of
the expenditure of £42,000 a year on Greenwich Hospital,
where there are now only 380 old men and women; he
complained of the slow progress made in the construction
of the two iron-clads, Hercules and Monarch ; and ho
particularly censured the Admiralty for attempting to
build in one year 35 light craft, ranging from 700 tons
down to China gunboats, and for building at the same
time two unarmoured ships, one of which is large enough
for 600 men. Ile then proceeded to speak of the fleets re-
quired for home stations and colonial stations, and those
for the protection of English commerce abroad. Our true
policy would be to strengthen our home fleet in a manner
to meet the approval of the house. The hon. member pro-
ceeded to show the force on the various stations in 1846,
1856, and at the present time, and then suggested a reduc-
tion of 2,Boo:men in China, the East Indies, and Australia,
700 men on the West Coast of Africa, 2,400 men on the
North American and West Indian station, 300 men on
the South Eastern American station, and 1,000 men in the
Pacific, altogether a reduction of 7,200. for that it pro-
posed t • substitute a much more popular force, namely an
increase to our home strength by the formation of a flying
home squadron of 2,500 to 3,500 men, in six or seven fast
ships, part armoured and part not, of nearly equal sailing
powers, rendezvousing at Lisbon, having two flags, and
employment for two admirals, and ready at a moment's
notice to be sent to any part of the world where our per-
manent force was not sufficiently strong. We have thirty
admirals employed, paid £32,700 ; 370 admirals unemployed,
paid £155,700 ; 114 post captains employed, paid £85,500 ;
and 646 unemployed, paid £149,800; 128 commanders
employed afloat, paid £51,700 ; 65 employed ashore, paid
,£23,7U0; and 1,040 unemployed, paid £117,600; one
general of marines employed, paid £1,400 ; and 42 unem-
vployed, paid £26,500 ; in all, 321 employed, at a cost of
£195,300 ; and 2,045 unemployed, at a cost of £449,000.
(Laughter.) The remedy is to buy out men when they
are younger and wish to retire, or are useless, by paying

a sum down. (Hear, hear.) The money can be got
through the National Debt Commissioners, and need not
come into the estimates. These remarks he made in no
unfriendly spirit; and, as a matter of form, he moved that
vote 1 be reduced by 2,000 men.
Mr. CORRY had no doubt his right hon. friend who
prepared the estimates will justify himself on the general
question. The number of naval cadets was erroneously
stated by his noble friend, who omitted the second-class
cadets, retained to keep up the rank of masters in the navy
—most necessary to the well-being and safety of our ships.
(Hear, hear.) It would be very undesirable to increase
the number of artificers, which is too small, by reducing
the number of so important a force as the Royal Marines.
The deficient expenditure at Chatham and Portsmouth
dockyards arises from the commercial pressure of last
year, in consequence of which the late Board of Admiralty
could not complete the contracts, and several are yet un-
completed. It is very necessary that these works should
be completed. The American navy contains several
vessels of enormous speed, and two vessels of the
Inconstant class are as few as we ought to have. The
completion of the Hercules arises from some of her iron
being found defective ; and that of the Monarch by an
accident in the yard where she is being built. .The
building of so many small vessels in one year is rendered
necessary by the removal of 151 screw ships and 73 sailing
ships from the efficient list since 1860, and the fact that
none had been supplied to take their place. It is neces-
sary to keep up both the Channel and the foreign squadron.
In China we have a large trade to protect, and pirates to
watch and capture; fourteen treaty ports; and in
Japan five treaty ports. The squadron has 4,000 men, and
he wished the number could be reduced. The number of
men on foreign stations, exclusive of the Mediterranean,
last year and this year, has been 19,000, which is less than
any year since 1860 ; and since 1862 there has been a re-
duction of 8,000. He will pay attention to the subject,
with the wish to reduce the number if practicable. Foreign
squadrons are useful in keeping up the skill of officers and
; and to keep a large fleet in the channel would excite
the ivalry of neighbouring nations. He would bo happy,
if possible, to improve the state of the lists. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SAMUDA complained that only £570,000 of the suns
asked for is to be applied to the augmentation of the iron-
clad fleet, and said that money voted last year for ironclad
vessels has been used for other purposes. The rotten wood
and composite vessels ought to be replaced by ironclads ;
but the lilliputiau navy has been increased at the expense
of the ironclad navy. He disapproved of the proposal to
sell the old wooden ships, and stated that they were cap-
able of being covered with si-inch plate, and of carrying a
sufficient armament, and turrets, with a free board of 10
feet. The cost of such conversion would be £lOO,OOO each
ship, and the work could be completed within six months.
They should, therefore, be retained as a reserve in case of
emergency. He approved of the proposal to build two
armour-plated vessels of 3,700 tons, but he complained that.
the Admiralty had no stability or certainty in their plans,
citing in corroboration of the statement that we have as
many as six classes of ironclads, and that two more are
about to be added to the list. He also condemned the policy
buildingof
and
any p 3
ship which was to rely upon sped for
safety,pointed
out that if the proposed ship —the Incon-
stant —came into collision with a vessel of the class of the
Agincourt, which had accomplished more than 15 knots,
she would be sunk in a few minutes. For these reasons
he entreated the Admiralty to rely upon their own judg-
ment, and not to be led away by what other nations might
be doing.
Admiral WALCOT recommended that we should build
no more large ships but confine our efforts to the construc-
tion of vessels of 4,000 tons, which were every way more
handy and useful. With respect to naval expenditure,
there have been since 1837 no lass than 17 First Lords of
the Admiralty and 15 Secretaries; and economy under
such a fluctuation of opinion was impossible.
Sir M. PETO was .glad to learn from the statement
made by the noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty, the
other evening, that taere is to be a decrease in the repairs
of vessels, as it is an indication that the board intend to
pursue a wiser policy for the future. It is perfectly im-
possible to construct vessels of a compound character so as
to render them permanent and efficient. With regard to
tho store department, he always felt that until it was com-
bined with the Controller's department, and both placed
uuder the responsibility of that officer, they could not ex-
pect to arrive at such a system of management as would
ensure efficiency and economy. He was rather surprised
to have heard the hot, member for Pontefract say that the
purchase of timber was the result of the pressure of the
House of Commons, when in point of fact the money so
expended was diverted from the purpose for which it was
distinctly voted by Parliament—namely, for the construc-
tion of iron-clad vessels. That was an error which he
hoped no Board of Admiralty would again venture to re-
peat. The next point to which he wished to call attention
was the iron ballast. A great portion of it consisted of
Swedish iron, and was worth about £4 a ton. Aa regards
the dockyards, the Admiralty ought to have the advice of
practical men. The time has come for consideration
whether we might not combine with friendly nations for
the protection of trade, and so economise the expenditure
for some of our foreign squadrons.
Sir J. PAKINGTON expressed satisfaction at the tem-
perate tone in the criticism of the estimates. Iu the great
changes necessary it was impossible to avoid a consider-
able increase of expenditure. An objection was made to
the proposal to sell old ships, on the ground that they
might be converted in emergency to use ; but we have now
from 90 to 100 old lino-of-battle ships and frigates lying in
our ports practically useless. The old ships are maintained
at no less a cost than a thousand a year, and though some
of them would be serviceable as hoapitals, it would have
been more useful to send many of them to market, whore
they would have realised probably £2C0,000. As for wooden
ships, they may be a valuable addition to the navy. The
United States are building six of a large class. The French
are building some with the same object, namely, to have
vessels of great speed, capable of keeping the sea as cruisers,
and also able, as far as guns go, to carry heavy armour,
The Government have considered it much more economi-
cal to build vessels of a new type than to expend money
ienxpreenpadiilt.iunrge nolfdosuhr ips.As to the policy of reducing the
foreign squadron, the fact is there has
been a great reduction in the number of mon and tonnage
employed iu the last seven years ; and a reduction in each
year. In 1860 we employed on all our foreign staticns
35,768 men and 189,800 tons; 1861, 33,500 moil and
202,000 tens ; 1862, 48,900 men awl 209,000 tons ; 1863,
33.500 men and 187,000 tons; 1864, 32,200 men and 190,000
tons ; 1865, 28,000 men and 173,600 tons ; audlB66, 27,000
men and 167,000 tons ; and for the present year the num-
bers are 24,800 men and 160,000 tons. The same result is
observable with respect to the West African squadron. It
is curious that hon. gentlemen only found out the cost of
these establishments after breathing the invigorating air
cf the opposite side of the house. The immense expendi-
ture on the retired list is to be regretted. It began with the
great war, and men cannot be thrown over who are on it.
The plan suggested by the honanember for Pontefract is not
new. Another plan was to be cautious, to introduce no
larger proportion of officers than is required. The late
Board of Admiralty were not so cautious as they migh t
have been. The present board have limited the number of
cadets and assistant clerks admitted. In reply to Mr.
Childers, he said the prevention of promotion among
cadets does not arise front the aggregate number, but from
the number of a particular class.

Mr.STANSFELD moved that the chairman report pro-
gress.
Mr. CORRY agreed. Ile said the flag-ship on the West
Coast of Africa is too large, but a smaller could not be
sent at the time, and a smaller will be sent as soon as pos-
sible.

The motion was agreed to, and the chairman reported
progress.
The Lyon King of Arms Bill passed through committee.
Mr. M'EVOY moved for leave to bring in a bill to re-
peal the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Mr. O'REILLY and Sir G. BOWYER deprecated the intro-
duction of the bill at the present moment unless there were
a certain prospect of a practical result being attained, and
they mentioned that this was the opinion of the leading
Roman Catholic prelates.
Mr. GLADS LONE, though ready to support the repeal
of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, held it to be of little use to
raise this question unless Mr. M'Evoy had an assurance
that the bill would be supported by the Government.
No member of the Government was present to give an
answer, and a longeonversation followed, in which various
Irish members supported the view taken by Mr. O'Reilly,
and urged delay. Ultimately, leave was given to bring in
the bill, and it was read a first time.
The house was counted out, by a division on a motion
by Mr. Lows to refer the petition of Mr. Webb Shields,
C.E., to a select committee, at 2 o'clock

month the work of building the piers, Nos. 1 and 2,
of the bridge had made considerable advance, and I
that the masonry and brickwork was now in parts
up to and above high-water level, and was as to the
mode of execution perfectly satisfactory. The works
in connexion with the caisson of No. 3 pier remained
in the same state as at the date of last report. Of
pier No. 4 the work of sinking the caissons was pro-
ceeding. One of them was now down within about
four feet of the full depth. The progress with that
pier had been slower than he had hoped, in conse-
quence of the number of old piles and a bed of
cemented stones in and around its site, and which
caused great trouble. The bottom of another of
the caissons of the old bridge had been raised and
cleared away during the mouth, and the staging
and centering of the first arch, that next the
Surrey shore, was making progress, and the iron
arched ribs were now beginning to arrive at the works.
Mr. Lawley, chairman of the Local Government
and Taxation Committee, moved the adoption of a
report prepared by them, containing a census of the
number of persons engaged, occupied, or employed
daily in the city of London and also of the num-
ber of persons resorting to the city daily. In that
day census, he said, facts had come out which he
trusted would in future tend to better legislation
with regard to the city, for it had been of late years
placed at a great disadvantage by the night returns
of its population, made and published by the autho-
rity of Parliament, those night returns and the fal-
lacious reasoning upon them having led to many
mistakes in legislation. The city population, from
the census of 1861, bad been assumed to be 113,000;
but that was its night or sleeping population only,
and it had been ascertained that 273,000 people re-
sorted to it daily in the pursuit of business, and one-
half male adult population of London, or 500,000
souls, entered within its precincts every day. The
Registrar-General's return, so far as regarded the
city, was full of fallacies from beginning to end, and
a popular writer, adopting the figures contained in
it, had stated the city proper was year by year de-
creasing. Nothing could be more erroneous. How
was it, he asked, that the Government employed
persons so willfully blind, or who so continuously
misrepresented facts in relation to the city? Dr.
Farr, on being asked in a committee of the House
of Commons how many of the members of the cor-
poration of London resided and slept in the city, re-
plied that almost all of them did, the truth being
that only 35 of them slept and resided in it, 163 of
them in other parts of the metropolis. Again, ac-
cording to the census of 1861 only one city appren-
tice slept in the city—(a laugh)—the facts being
that on premises connected with the two printing
offices of Messrs. Spottiswoode, i❑ which the census
tables were printed, there were 148 resident appren-
tices ; that there were 1,762 apprentices to freemen
recorded in the Chamber of London, and that itwas
estimated the city apprentices enrolled and unenrolled
were at least 3,000. Notwithstanding that, only
one sleeping apprentice in the city found his way
into the census of 1861. Further, in that census there
were recorded as sleeping in the city 9 bankers, no
underwriters,and 32 stockbrokers; 44 farmers, 4 farm
bailiffs, 28 gardeners, 6 fishermen, and 1 shepherd;
showing, according to the Registrar-General, that
the city stood at the head of the agricultural districts
of England, as regarded the cultivation of the soil,
there being 44 farmers to the square mile. (A laugh.)
The number of inhabited houses removed since 1811
and the number said to be uninhabited in 1861 were
represented as equal to all the houses in the three
cities of Chichester, Wells, and Ely. That was
assumed to imply decay in the city, yet the rentals
had increased between 1811 and 1866 from £564,243
to £2,109,935, or about 273 per cent., and the fewer
houses of 1866 were worth more than the more
numerous houses of 1811 by £38,617,000. In the
30 years from 1771 to 1801 the increase of rateable
value in the city was 11 per cent. ; in the 30 years
between 1801 and 1831 it was 56 per cent. ; in the
30 years between 1831 and 1866 it was 61 per cent.,
and in the six years between 1861 and 1866 it was
64 per cent. All that surely afforded no signs of
decay. The Customs duties paid in the city of Lon-
don exceeded those paid in the rest of the kingdom,
and the trading profits under Schedule D in the city
exceeded those of all the rest of the metropolis. Again,
the census of 1861, which had been taken as a basis

for estimating the criminal position of the city, made
the city more criminal than any district of the king-
dom—so much so, that every registered inhabitant
must on the average have been convicted of crime at

least three times in the course of his or her life. (A
laugh.) Mr. Elias Davis questioned both the accu-
racy of in some respects and the necessity for the
census taken by the corporation, and suggested, amid
some uproar, that it be sent to the British Museum,
if it were only to show upon what worthless objects
the Common Council spent its funds. The report
was adopted. The Court declined to agree to a re-
port of the Guildhall Improvement Committee, em-
bodying a plan and estimate for a proposed new
library at Guildhall, at an expense, exclusive of
fittings, of £25,000. On the recommendation of
one of their committee they passed a resolution
granting to Mr. Chambers, the Common Sergeant, an
allowance of £550 a year, in consideration of his
acting as judge iu the Mayor's Court, in conse-
quence of the increase of business, and on his ceas-
ing to practise as counsel in that court. The Court,
on the recommendation of the Coal, Corn, and Fi-
nance Committee, voted £lO5 to the Working Men's
Educational Union ; £2lO to the Shipwrecked
Fishermen and Mariners' Royal Benevolent Society ;
and 250 guineas towards the building fund of the
Field-lane Ragged Schools and Night Refuges.
The meeting was then adjourned.