The Sun.
London, England, 1803-07-21 00:00:00

Tube SECIUETAItie at WAR, who 914 ,tbat the
Hon.. Gentleman was going into a discussion quite.
irrelevant to'the question before the House.
Mr. KINNAIRD said, he conceived, lie as in
order. He then made some obServations npon the
Bill, which he considered as, much too complicated,
and hoped it would be simplified in the Cottunittee,
i Mr. SHERIDAN said, he would not detain the
le House a moment. The Hco.Gent lemon who spoke:
I last seemed to misappreheed the principle of the.
Bill, for though.he disapproved of it, he had not
urged ant arguments against it. If the Hon. Gen-
actual-Iliad waited till the Bill had gone through
the Coneinittee, he might have saved himself the
troUble of making many of the observations he had
done. The Lion.. Gentle Man said this Bill was cal-
culated to set • the. minds of the People at ease, and
td make tbein think there was no danger of Inva.
sion. He really could not see how a Bill,which,
for the first time, proposed to arm all the People in
the Country, was a proof that hilinisteee did not
think that any clanger existed ; though certainly,
aftei the Bill was carried into eifed, it would •re.
,move all ground of apprehension from Invasion.
He agreed with a Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr.
Wreeume),:. that the spirit of the People of this
Country was not on a level with the danger with
which they were threatened. He was anxious to
see the Army of the Line completed, and the
tia, and he instanced the case of the Surrey Militia,
the euMbera of which were far from being complete.
The'People of this Country must be made sensible
of their dangerhefore they would come forward ;
he had an opportunity. of knowing that in the part
of the-Conntry in which he had been, an Invasion
was coteeideretle as impritaicable. Nothing, was
mote common in Men's mouths than the old expres-
.sion, if my head does not acts till Bonaparte
comes, it will never nelt.4l He would not take up
more of the time of the House at present, he hoped
the House would go with one heart and and hand to
the consideration teilthis Bill, with a view to make
it es.pet feet as possible, and —that they would set
aside this day for fleet purpose, without entering
into any. disetission about the coniludt of Ministers,
for •which are would be time enough on a future
occasion.
Mr. PITT said, he agreed with the Hon. Mem-
, ter that the further distussion: upon the principle
should at present be suspended-le thought that
the Bill required vey considerable alterations,though
he flotered himself they would not be very difficult
ones to snake. The principal objeetion he had to the
Bill was, that it had no tendency to procure with.
in the time that the exigeocy of .the case required,
a force suited to the danger. With which we were
threatened. But whatever might be the general
ohje4ioos to the Bill, lie took them to be that
the Provisions of the Bill , were not sufficient to
attain its own objed, or that they did novaim
'at the attainment of that tihjeC't in .the best way.
This was certainly fit matter for diienssion in the
Committee, though it was regular to enter into the
discussion in the present stage. One of, the objec.,
tio4S which had been stated to die. Bill was, that it
,did not give sufficient encouragernerit to•volutetary
C.:eltiOnh." He had..hitnself expressed a desire to
give a preference to that species. of .service, and he
thought that epecific provisions were necessary to
point much mere strongly that preference ; Fitt that.
might be done in the Committee. There was a
clause in the Bill the °Wert of which was its accept
of a lea; degree of volunteer service Where that
could be procured, thane that which would be oh-
- tamed under the 'other provisions Of the Bill ;' but
this was a provisioti which, with all'hite attachment
to voliinteer service, he: could nor' wholly approve
He wished ,now 'to go . into the Committee
without further diecussion, tend after the Amend-
filents which Ministers. inter tled 'to preposie, anti
those. which other Gentlemen might suggest, Were,
considtred, if the Bill' waS reit then free from 'ob..
jeCtions, it, won;d.bi then open to every Gentleman
to state .his• opinion upon it, and to move, : if lie
thought proper, that it should be recommitted ;
though he hoped that 'would not 'he 'the case,
cellist: he. was anxious that every passible diiipatcli
should be used. ' '
..111rt !`..ilfielif..o.bet.eeid a few Words
andsaide that tite.Rigbt Hon. Gentl&Mati had mis.
understood
R re also explained, •
•Mr,IIIINDIIAM laid,' it was not very wonder-
IA that his Right Hon, Friend had misunderstOod
the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Seize' tenet) for lie did
not seem to knOW himself on which side of the
question, 'or on which side ''of the House, he was
speaking,; indeed he had of late goqe backward and
forward so Often, that it was natural. He certainly
was not, anxious to- go into the general diecussion
at ehet time, though he was of:opinion that those
Ifiods of discussion, previous to going into a Com.
weee' often attended with very beneficial
effeas. However, as the House seemed anxious to
gointo,the Committee, he would, not detain them
with any further observations' at preseete • -
Mr. D AN said, the Hon. Gentleman had
accused him of inconsistency ; nothing; would 'please
him more than to have that subject And some others
fairly out with the Right Hon. Gentleinao at e pro.
per time.
,
On the question being put, the Bill was ordered
to be recoMmitted, and the House resolved itself'
into.eCommittee ttecerdirigly. • "'
The SECRETARY at IS';;;; then said, that
Nut—
C.Y.try- s,nosv it was tinpesseble to make a
Bill,perfen in the first instance. He had
several'hOwever
material amendments to propose In the
Cununittee, lot the purpose of making the Bill as
Pl'46ti"ble. as possible, Which.inlVir course tae
the object in a nicest:4c l.tk.e the-prcsent. The
principle of the 'Bill was to enable His Majesty efe
'felteaally to exercise -his .preapgative of calling out
his,liege Suhjeets for the detente of the realm;.
For this putpose it was necessary that:they should
tic trained and exercised it was neeeesery also
that they ehotild be eerellede in order that His Ma..
jesty might knew the number of persons, on whom
:te could cail 'in, cast: of emergency.- With respia
to the eubjeett'Ofe-returns, ribsolutely neee-
soy to root 'tint:. that syetem -or Irmo whicth kid
preyailq! Jtip
r! .fit :places._ With /respell oe tee
etime and of cereeeing the Biil int.o.eeteettion,
it roust depend, in Aegreat.measote; on,Geerkrnee
of iellentecte in the countt'y , they must tet their

shoulders to the wheel, and then the Bill would
G., he speedily carried into circa. With respet to
the moile of assembling the persons to be called
out under this Bill, he should propose, that in the
maritime counties, in case of alarm on certain sig-
nals being given, the whole of the first class should
move our, according to dire&ions to be previously
given ; the other, classes might wait till they re-
ceived orders. With respect to Volunteers, he
should propose that not only in all cases where
there should be a sufficient number enrolled in Vo.

lunrcer Corps in any distria to satisfy His Ma.
jesty, but also where a sufficient number of per-
sons volunteered their services to the extent re-
quired by the Aa, that then such Distria should
he exempted from the operation of the compulsory
clauses. The Volunteer Corps formed under the

present Bill must be formed .upon a principle co.
ex:ensive with the objets of the Bill, and it was
intended that they should be compellable to march
to any part of the Kingdom in the event of Inva.
sion. As to the Volunteer Corps already formed
under the Defence Bill passed during the present
Session, he conceived the public faith to be pledged
to them, that they should not be called upon to
march beyond the limits to which they had agreed.
He should also propose some alteration with respel
to the duration of the Bill, and to the time limited
for exercise between Lady Day and Michaelmas,
which he thought ought to be extended. As there
were alto some objeC'tions in Scotland to Sunday.
being mimic the day appointed for the e4ercise'of
training, and for the relief of tender consciences
in general, he 'intended to propose that the Lord
Lieutenant should be empowered to appoint any
other day for that purpose. With respeet to the
second and third succeeding ;lasses, he should also
propose, to give a discretionary power with respeet
totalling them out to exercise.
Lord CASTGEILEAGH wished that a power might
be• given His Majesty to call upon persons- for
their exertions even before the period of 'enroll-
ment.

would be
ado/2r)te.dP/iTjlsvaiildic,h healletoopbed some
jeao
fmeanstheßill
might
be in some measure
,attained.before the Pqiod of
enrollment. lie ' also wished that the process of
enrollment might be Tendered as short as possible.
lie did not like that part of the ph)) of his Right
Hein. Friend (The SP.CRETARY at WAR), which
went to ascertain, first, the number of persons who‘
were willing to Volimteer their services. The fitst
()Ned ought to be, in his opinion, pot to make rese-
palate class of those who were wilting to serve,
but to ascertain the number of those wyo were
willing to outstrip the compulsory clauses of the
Bill, whilst the process of enrollment was at the
same time going -on, What he wished was, that
they should not wait for Volunteers corning forward,
but that the proper officers should go round and en-
rol them at their own doors : he thought this was
inure conformable to the principle's of the Bill, thin
making a separate class.of Volunteers. He wished
that all should be called upon, in the first instance,
.to come forward ;. and though such must be a Mee.
sure uncertain in its effett from its very nature,
yet when the enrollment was completed, those
would be discovered who had kept back, being
liable to be calle: up +n under the present Ball. It
was provided in the Bill as it at present stood, that
if a certain number of Volunteers came forward in
any Distria, satisladory to His Majesty, His Ma.
jesty might suspend the operation of the compulsory
clause& in that-Disttiel. lie wished that the pro.
pertiotiate number of such Volunteers should be
fixed in the Bill, as it would be a guide to the
people in general. He was of opinion that that
number might be fixed at three-fourths,, or, at most,
fuur.fifths of the whole. A probable calculation
with resped to this number might be easily made
by a reference to the returns under the Population
ACt, and to what were called the Tables of Mor.
taiity. He wished also that the time for making
up the
Ttrollment should be rendered as short as
possible, By the Bill a General Meeting of Lieu-
tenancy of each County was to be called
Within ten
days,.at whith orders were to be issued Co the Con,
stables, Which of cotirse would cake up some time in
delivering. The Constables were then to give
notice to tlili'llHeitteholders, and receive returns
within fourteen days. He thought this time might
be shortened to two or three days. Aftet that,
seven days were allowed to the Clerk of the Sub.
division Meeting to make out the Roll for the Ge-
neral Meeting of the Lieutenancy, and fourteen
fur the. Clerk of the General Meeting to make out
an abstract of the Roils to the Secretary of Stare ;
he thought this time might also be shortened. The
whole number of days then taken up in the Bill
amounted to very near sixty, which would go on to
within a very short, period of Michaelmas, so that
not aboVe one Sunday • would remain for exercise.
He thought some of these stages might be got rid of
altogether, and others materially shortened, soar to
make the whole time, necessary for carrying the
Bill into execution about three weeks. ' He hoped
also that with respett to Volunteers
.ceming fur-
ward under this Act, a power would be given to
dispose of their services in the same manner, as
under the compulsory Clauses, and a power Elite.
wise of increasing the Regular Troops in case of
1 emergency from that source ; enough would still re.
main to display jlte gallantry of k;.nglisluxten under
their respective Commanders.
1.-e-ed-, Ce:Ts,gittnuit and Mr, Par severellY
explained.
The SECRETARY at WAR observed, that he
had no objeition to the Lord Lieutenants making a
canvass, In order to see who were ready for vohm-
tary serviceihsind-, who were not ; but there is a
clausein they in 'Which went to the extent wished
for 'by • the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT).
This claust•gives the Government a power to ascer.
Lain The number of persons ready to volunteer their
services to the Clown. He thought that by a
trifling alteration in the clause, His Majesty would
have.a power toaseertain the strength of Voluntary
'Service before the enrollment took place. The
Right Hon. Gentleman wished it to be noderstoOd,
that the Voltintary Service produced by this Bill
Was not to be considered of the same nature, as the
°hi VOlunteer. Corps. lie then stated that the
male population of effettlive young men in this Coun-
try, taking them at one in twenty-four, atoottnted to
between four: and five hundred thousaed L'ersons :

f

lie therefore th .aght the plan recommended h' the
Right Hon. Gentleman,• would be too great a duo.,
on the People.
imppror.veLAmelvntitsENwchticehxplrteadssed beenllis aSitl)Prgg(e)bSirCir of the f
by
Right Hon. Mr. PITT.
Sir JAMES ruLTENEY urged the necessity of bay.,
ing the number of persons enolted as early
,as posoif
ble, that Government.were in want of, and not de•
pend too much on Voluntary Service.
Mr. SHE It/DAN spoke in favour of the measal
adopted by the present Bill, but he could not Ittlr,'s'.
think that the voluntary spirit of the Country wait;
not sufficiently roused. It is now six weeks agg.'" -
since the Lord Lieutenants had authority to coile;r:
the Returns of the different Counties in the king,
darn. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded, co the:
spirit of the Country in the last War ; he observek
that he was in Cumberland when the Lists came routtd,
for persons to enter their name, and what they were'!
willing and equal to for the defence of the Countrk,;
but the manner in which the measure was congtelok,
gave him and his friends, cause, not only of 14"),".,1
nishment but censure, as. it did not inspire tit':
least spirit in the iehabitants to defend their pt
perty and country ; and out of a large body of. t,
sons, (who would, if they had been properlY„CY
couraged, have entered. their .natiL:s„ and have gut
their services to the protedion of tilt Country
scarcely one in twenty gave themselves any trOuhlt
on the sub:tecl, But all this supineness then a,
now, was • pot` the ' iviAt of courage; the da )
was not yet known, not perfeCtly felt, otherw_,;,..
every individual would be regdy to giye his
vice to the Country,
Mr. Strz4tyma said a few words on the.
Mr. lONall.ol thought that those pen'.
would be the most effective Soldiers who h
volunteered their services, as rainy. others w-
enteredthe service, might' have some physical de.
feft, which would •not exempt them the service )10,1,
render them unable for 'efficient duty. . •
Lord 6 AST Z, R E 4011. s.kia, the Bill now ortqC,
consideration of the Committee would not narrow
the-Prefogative of tha.grcpr!, as HiA Majesty. cool :4,
call out hiS subialtsnt..any dne, 'when the Counttf
was in want :heir services only went t 4;:
train a body of I*ll to be, ready. in. case_of 1110:
vasion.

,Lori-i/AWWFSWPY also observed, chat rb
object of the Bill wAt to,t rain the people to. arm
alYl6:iiiewsti7chleurldtl,lilbyßillhfewLaaswi9oefltihteelt.lemod: ngli 1911 i;,
hi'GSeunbei:aE/5 .ToAiXeLFt.4.'l 7.'11 Ot Nhe-saCit°l, he 4ntrY.:had received
Letter from one of ' the most populous Cuuntiea.i4
the Kingdom, which stated, that the Supplementary,
Mriy itlit°ofwßereeserra.%tetwi:ewreiti.:l9suntrdeiodfitcyultioYstakanedthtlel'alti'itehll
A ''
against the Enemy. The 'Hon. gentlern an then pai4 ..:
several compliments 'to different Volunteer. cure
who signalized themselves On various occasions, and
he observed,. that 70 Volunteers were equal 10 100,
':.t7lenit-liftrui.Bl4ChitvileHN,N4:: then.
went over the remarks Made 1/1...'
Iheits,:teld)p,roliationGofe'll:liteerusaenn
Right Hon. Gentleman. (tiMmern.PotTdre)iiivaenidedexbp;eisbsro
The CHANCE.I,4O4 of the EXCii,EQUER ob.' ~
of June last, abeenbl e iinn°l4orni-ina tit. I
Bill, nottilawtitnhcistaaanduianigincig.rricethsisi..l:7alline
had been received. The Right lion. Gnuleinart.
was itifotmeti by
then informed the House,
eltluornn.sGeoin!tillcen;omuvasn:enndf:rioil7n etfib;
anag : Hon, :sGtoen6tole,man behind him, that since the Bill
'pettation of the Returns
who had volunteered their aeroccs,
for the Defence of the Country, to be very eonsi•
derable ; yet l& did not wish entirely to depend ol
this report, WI be prepared at every point.
Mr. N. L ACE Li. ES said, he should wish that ,
we availid ourselves of voluntary service as 11;ttch a'.'
pOSsihle, btit that depended very mach on the sake
which the People Itad of the danger to which .we were .4
exposed. That had been vow announced to, existt
and when it was properly felt he .had no doubt but
that the voluntary.servio would be abuntlant,, for 1,10•..'
had no doubt that., whatever depended otl thitfitt'`Y,
spirit of the People would: be performed weir.. 'f:_: ,-is
Mr. PITT said, he was certainly very desitni!..,
../
of proceeding to the Clauses of. the-Bill .without atjgii
delay, .and to go on through theth io their order.iq
but although the subjea of the Claus; for voluntatf,4'6-., 1
service was nor in 'the first Clause, and although 4,
was propel to proceed to the first Clause withoPs
now entering into any.othar, yet as 'that subject hroCit
now beena good deal.tliscussed, he thought he sluittlt
do better to say a few kvor4l4 uppri that bubjeit at -‘,l
thii time, rather thin dtke it to a further lime, ,
while it was fresh the recolleaion of the Coat....
,
the route particular.
mittee and of his own, and
. upfeo which he hail
entertained l'iy his Right lion. Friend the SgCtly-
blYeeans .mtliseur:e)::l‘aVrertrttOsdon. 1 e;:dthleha;rst place a doubt. was
Tiktt* at N.V.ka, -what was ,the proportion of rhc
`Voluntary Service to whick,he applied, and upon
which
,he, meant to found his 'suggestion ; it •would
be a Mistake..intlevd, if it was supposed that lit
'slo9lo I,tr.T94anyouipegijon of the operation of tlit
litii, ;f iii;c4;..f..y_”,.ths tutu of the first class were made
up by ..otters of yoluoteeT Service:Etat whatever was
the number, on which -he stated no fixed opinion, b'
had rather favour 4 voluntary service,. and that under
the first 'class I but it was supposed that rie wished
-tia:e.rxes-spz alt ..-7,-;:tv eht. Ent- sehm...-fruitt shewint
their voluntary zeal. He expressed a sentiment
upon this' subjed as well as he could consistently
with brevity, that he wished to take the Voitl°'
tary services of thin all. ' Yet it Was said Iliac tilts
Voluntary Services of these men would be ineffica" '
clans, and that it would cause delay to adopt wba,i''
he had proposed. lie Sai:i, on the contrary it woo.
be the meani of saving of time, and he was happy
that the Committee seemed now to be impressed,wit
the idea that he had-thrown out on a former occasico!
tlt.,t the great , 'and. essential question on which Il '
public sality so much depended was that of Savil
tint.? ; but it was said we had not hitherto Vine.
any great number of Volunteers under the Delta'
Bill, and that ! we did 04 obtain many in that vio
...in the last WAT ; on this he hart the satisf.nion _
ltear_ Irtun petted authority, that there trdl he
great force un,'er that part of the Bill which r:d
.lard Volunteer 6eTVICC, but we must not itel'e,
_.
entirely. ou that information, ' fur however the I"

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