The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-29 00:00:00

TEE SUN, LS)ND ON, THURSDAY E V ENING, APRIL - 29, 18.58.

IMPERIAL PATILIA.7.SEINT.

ormation, the right hon. gentleman said, according to
the census, there were 230,000 farmers-in Begland, bit
if they were to take in all the occupiers of _five acres of
land there was no kno ring how much that number !eight
be increased, and if they omitted , ending forMs to all
the bakers, butchers, tinkers and tailors who ought OCCUPY
five acres of lai.d, and would by this bill come under the
class of farmers to be filled up, any one so left out would
rend.3r the returns inaccurate. The right hon. gentleman
then onterel at great length into the difficulties of ob-
taining aerate inf qination by the mode of procedure
suggested under the bill ; and in reference to compulsory
returns, said the farmers were ready to do anything if
treated kindly, hu . if they were treated duff :irently
they had a very expressive
phra e of cony-yin; their
dislike—viz , " y.,u none know how awswi,r,t we can
be when we like"—(laughter)—and 'he thoug'lt they
wciald be flund v-ry awkward to deal with in reference
to cosapnlsory returns. Tne returns made through the
machinery proposed would not be- completed till Sep-
tember, when it would be melees far practical
purposes. He was unable to - give an: estimate of
the expense 4 a volan ary re,,urn. Ha urged
the bon. rzentle,nan to accept the advice given by •the
hon. ge.oleman Cale. G.r t wel) and wiLlidea N tt . 0 Li 1.
Accurate information would be invaluable, but inaccu-
rate returns would not be worth the paper on which
they were v.ritten, anl as he thought the Jet er would
be the case he could not agree to the second readiag of
the bill. Accurate returns might be made periodically,
and he thought they might be made at a little expeuie.
When the Cklstli was taken- the ,anie ohjectiOn would
I not be raised to pericelicil returns that exi:sted agalest
annual returns. . a

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The Stu mm took the chair at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bilis were considered and ordered for
third reading :—Brentford Gas ; Gerngal Real ; and
Mare, Hadhana, and Bantingford Rail way.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.
Mr. CAIRD moved the second reading of the bill he
introduced some time since for providing agricultural
statistics throughout England and Wales. He said
he was anxious to divest the matter of all poli-
tical and party bias, and to treat it simply as a
question of economical sciences. He then entered upon
a series of calculations and returns to show what mis-
takes both producers and cinsuiners had fallen into in
consequence of the want of these statistics. An acm-
rate system of agricultural statistics woull he thou ht
prevent those serious alternations in prices which had at
eerioet times prnved so detrimental to the interests
d the country, by leaving au over supply at one
•time and repressing the supply at another. He can-
vassed the statements of hon. members on the report of
'the committee to inqu're into this subject, and said there
was no other class el men the Government had not inter-
fered with to obtain statistics of the trade, but farmers.
The cotton trade was subject to these returns, and be de•
• hied that the operation of the act with reference to
agriculture would be more inquisitorial than the other
trades. Ile considered the most important information
to be obtained was the' average ef corn grown. .It
was the least objectionable mode of ascertainingta
the quantity, and be sugsested it should beci i
oi
en the plan adopted in Ireland. The mercantile
manity of this country must be largely
interestedin
During the last four years no
obtaining these returns.
less than 111,000.0001. had left this country to pay for
food to make up the deficiencies of our harvests, and
from the want of proper information large importations
of rice had taken place during the Lost two years to meet
anticipated deficiencies, which had had the effect no
doubt of lessening the price of corn. With the exeep•
Lion of Spain and Turkey, England was the only coun-
try without statistical infermation relative to agricul-
ture. He proposed the information asked for should be
voluntary, and to show it would be trustworthy,
he instanced the returns that had been made
on that principle during the last ten years in
Ireland and for the past four years in Scotland. In
Yorkshire, where the experiment had been tried, 993/4
per cant. of the returas were filled up. He further re-
ferred to the numeral statistics compiled from voluntary
information. That department of the Board of Trade
was the prOper medium for carrying out the provisions
.of the bill. The occupiers of land might be obtained
- from the rate-books of the various parishes, and the
schedules to be filled up might be passed through the
post-office, and he proposed that relieving officers should
be employed to obtain information withheld by occupier.
He estimated the cost at below t,OOOl. or 10,0001.
Mr. PACE said the farmers had been told this bill
would do them no harm, but they had a right to ask if
it would do them any good. (Hear, hear.) The farmers
of ingland were some years ago reduced to the brink of
ruin by the legislation of the house, and in all measures
affecting their interest they bad a right to demand before.
hand that it should bs proved they were for their benefit
before they were passed. True, these returns were to
be made by voluntary means, but he was very much
afraid that if Parliament adopted a permissive bill an
attempt would soon be male to lender it compul-
sory. He looked upon the bill as the introduction
of the thin edge of the wedge for a compulsory
measure. (Hear, hear.) He objected to the farmers'
affairs being pried into in this manner. No other trader
was subject to such an inquiry into his affairs. He saw
no difference between traders in fields and traders in
houses, and be was at a loss to conceive why farmers
were to be made the exception. If it was of advantage
to the community-that they should know what produce
the farmer possessed, it would be equally as a.dvantaee-
ons that farmers should know the stocks of tradesmen,
whose aricles they consumed, and he asked the house
if they were prepared to legislate accordingly and make
statistics of trade universal. He moved the second read•
ing of the bill this day six months.
Mr. DUCANE seconded the amendment. He ob-
jected to this species of agricultural legislation as being
calculated to mislead the public, by producing a vast
amount of false information. (Hear.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS said there was a peculiarity con-
nected with agricultural statistics ; that if they were to
have them, it would be necessary to create a special
agency for the purpose. (Hear, bear.) It was per-
fectly true that a great mass of statistics were laid
annually on the t tble of the house, but many of them
were obtained incidentally in the collection of the re-
venue, which gave the best possible security for their
accuracy, and were rendered without additional expense,
but there were some returns that could not be made in-
sidentally, such as correct information with reference to
population. The returns in reference to the population
were of the utmost importance, and as they cost from
between 140,0301 to 150,0001. it was desirable
to have them on that account taken .at decimal
periods. He thought the objections raised to agri-
cultural statistics that they caused an inquisitorial
visitation of farmers' property, and a compulsory means
of obtaining information were clap-trap. His objection,
then, was grounded on an opinion that annual statistics
would not be valuable for practical purposes. He had
no objection to a return being made every ten years for
general information. He quoted Mr. Take and Mr.
Newmareh in support of his opinion that agricul-
tural statistics would be useful for discussion, but
not for political purposes. The cost of obtaining
agrichltural statistics in Scotland was about 6,0001. ; in
belled 7,000/. ; and it was estitnated it would be 10,0001.
for Eneland, but he was inclined to believe it would be
touch in excess of that sum to obtain anything like
• accuracy. The yield was different in many parts ef the
intitry arising from various clauses, and in gather-
! ing staistics deductions must be made for such
failures of crops, requiring great care and judgment,
- . and which, after they were made, would no doubt be dis•
puted. If this was to be a purely v ,!notary collection
of statistics there was no nee issity for the bill, and if
that system was to be adopted in England he di l not
roe why, if the house gave the necessary amount of
means, the collection should not be made, as in
Ireland, but he was, however, inclined to consider that
by the sth and 11th clauses the collections under this bill
would be compulsory. He doubted if the statistics,
when obtained, would be worth the sum of money re-
-q sired to obtain them, but if it could be shown they
would be advantageous he would support such a bill as
the present.
Mr. H. DIM NIMOND did not epees, the bill en the
supposition that by so doing he should keep up the price
of the poor man's loaf, but from a belief that no pi acti-
ex: benefit would result from it. The passing of such a
bill would give rise to a great deal of pedantry, and by..
astl-by they would have s°me carious etbnelegist wishing
returns of how many of the yellow-haired Saxons and the
black•haired Normans had continued down to the
present time. (Laughter.) He wished to guard against
the d:ff rence bet reel the,grower c.f c trio aid epeculs-
tees in c ern, and he b died they would never pass a law
that would have the effect of turning the geower t) a
specuietor. (Bear, hear.) The present bill was only a
means to an end,
Mr. CA irtn—Toat'e di that is intended.
Mr. 11. D RU:11 MOis.TD —But it ends with the means.
(Leuehter.) After some other rrmlrks, the hon. eent!e-
man intimated he should oppose the second reading of
the bill.
Mr. A. TURNER, was of opinion that agricultural
statistics might be obtained with as much accuracy and
as ea ily as the manor tctur rs did theirs with reference
to the raw ‘naterial. Manufacturers delighted in obtain-
ing information with regard t t the raw material in then:,
trades, and the cotton rraeufac,nrere kept agents riding
about America to obtain the cachet and best informa-
tion
relative to the cotton crop. He thought it would
be desirable to have the fullest information
relative to the stock in the hands of wholesale and retail
dealers tbroughou tthe kingdom. By knowing the quantity
and price of corn in the country, farmers would be better
able to regulate the sales of their own crops. He knew
many farmers who had retained crops in land from erro
neous informetion when wheat was at 80s. a quarter,
and who had afterwards been obliged to sell them fur
40s. per quarter.- (Hear.)' lie did not ex oect these sta..
tistics would beir3erfect, hut they would afford immense
information, and every year would tend towards attain-
ing perfection. (near.)
Mr. BENTINCK opposed the second reading of the
bill. No practical good would result from this men ore,
but it would produce increased jobbery in corn, and induce
farmers to bccomecornjobhers. He could imagine nothing
so mischievous as turning the corn-grower into the corn-
jobber. He ejected to the making of relieving officers
collectors of statistics from unwilling farmers. It would
teary f r the relieving officer into an authorised spy
ou the farmer, and be productive of muce
mischief and irritation between the parties. He
considered the provisions of the bill irritating, insulting,
and offensive to the farmers.
Mr. LINDSA Y said it bad been asserted by two pre.
'ions speakers that this bill would have the effect
of making farmers speculate in corn. But what, he
asked, was a speculator 1 A speculator was a roan
• who played a game of chance, and the farmer being at
• present iu the dark as to the amount of agricultural pre-
duce in this country he bad to play the game of chance,
cud was in reality a speculator. Oa behalf of the farmer,
hecalled upon the house to enlighten them on this subject,
whieh was of so much impel-tepee to them. He referred
to a memorial presented to Lord Aberdeen when he was
in office relative to the subject, signed by the leading
n.merchants of the City, in which they stated the
i pry it was to the commercial interest that no
agricultural etatisti e' I prevailed in this country. Ile
denied that this was an inquisitorial measure, and as
regarded that and Zs
ts compulsory nature he c mitrasted
its providons with the returns ship iwners were com-
pelled to make.
were
not only compelled
for their
to make returnstonnage of They
and price paid
ships, but else if
any
borrowed on thew. No ao mo"ey had been
v j salon
made by shipowners, from a belief that the
rewtuarsns weveerne
required for the public weal.
After some remarks from Mr. Kea SEvereß and Mr,
BA 33,
Ur. CARDWELL spoke at some lriagth in au p
e
of the bill. He admitted a compulsory measure would
t
fail,
would be to frustrate apd all its tendency the object a FIVE CHILDREN - -
AT ONE BIRTH. On the morning f
'in view, It • would 6e
b impossible for any ex ,• 7vle
d tc, • u ay lam., a woman named Elspet Gordon, residing
'give an accurate account of cropsthrequilre , but it might I!leitnethet, gave birth to three male and two female chil-
be obtained to a great extent on voluntary otthaerytrinesee, • The terse boys were born alive and lived till the
and he suggested that-the-4).0. mover of llshould "o wine' mor
mug, but what is very extraordinary,
withdraw it; leaving it' toAhe executive carry oat 'a
the
ere full growa for the period of all
gestation ; nor is this
similar to those mot Purerieine -
voluntary system of statistics in England boys
a circumstance in the case, one of the
of r •
of Ireland Red AcalarislisL-• • •g actually two f,o t teeth
the woad. Dwhen he came into
Mr. HENLEY did44frapprove the introdnetfon of- wh6, attended the woman,
appy to
the bill, but baying seen its detai:s he much condemned • zfr.), , say, is doing *onderlully Well.--
them.e o 014 t anc,
Speaking of the mode of obtaining voluntary in,

Mr. MILES expr-s,el his surprise that so much op-
positi n had been nisei in that house to agricultural
statistic 3, and he doubted very much if it was sharod in
by the farmers s" enerall yi 1:4 knewmany fartners.who
had no objection to returns tieing made of the_ acreage
of crops sown. What they oaj Icted to was returns
being made of their produce ned stack. All they
required was steady and remunerative prices. (Hear,
hear.) The improvements that had of late taken place
ie agriculture gave beneficial and remunerative prices
where they did not before ex;st. (Hear.) He took a
pleasure and pride in stating that the farmers of Beg-
land had pot their shouliers- to the wheel, and he be-
lieved they were able naw to meet the foreigner in the
English markets. He should support the second mailing
of the bill far asserting the principle, and he called upon
the hon. gentleman to adopt the suggesti in made, that
of leaving to tire Government the mode in which they
should be obtained. He was convinced agricultural
statistics would prove highly beneficial to agrieulture.
(Hear, and c-ies of "Divile.r)
Mr. STANHOPE objected to the bill.
Sir J. SHELLEY' also opposed the bill from its im-
practicable character. He Itooe'd the introducer of the
bill would not press-its second reading.
After some remarks. from Mr. WHITESIDE,

Mr. E. BALL opposed the bill. He defied any go-
verntnent to pass a bill compelling return of stock and
acreable produce. This bill had been shattered to pieces
by the right hon. gentleman (sir. Heoley), and he ad-
vised the bon. member (Nlr. Calrd) to pick, up the
fragments and take them out of the bottle. (Laughter.)
Mr. CAIRO declined to withdraw the bill.. In coin-
mit,ee he should be prepared to submit alterations to
meet the objections raised to it,-or, if preferable, aftr
the house bad affirmed its principle he would leate it to
the Government to carry out.
Afr,er awns remarks in explanation from Mr. WILSON
and Mr. KIM SEVER,

The house divided. The numbers were—
For the motion
Against it
Majority against the second reading --106
The bill was eongequently lost.
JOINT-STOCK BANKING COMPANIES BILL.
On the eecnnd readinv of this bill,
Mr. HEA.DLA.M asked the house to pass the second
reading, and take the discussion on going into commit-
tee. He t00v451 the second reading accoroingly.
Sir J. DUKE moved the adj ,urnment of the debate.
The bill involved an important principle, and he could
not consent to its being then debat-d within half an hour
of the time for the house to adjourn.
The CFIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
remind the house that he had a notice on the paper for
to-morrow, that orders of the day should take precedence
of notices of motions after Thursday, May 13. The hon.
member would, therefore, have an opportunity of bring-
ing the bill forward at an early day.
The motions for adjournment of the'debate and the
second reading were withdrawn, and the second reading
was acci,rdingly postponed.
ROADS, itc. (SCOTLAND) BILL.

Lord ELCIIO na )ve i the second readiug of the bill
pro forma, in order that it might be referred to a select
committee.

Mr. BL&OKBURN suggested the second reading
should be postponed till aft,r the 13th May. _He moved
the adjournment of tie houie to allow the noble lord to
again take that course.
Mr. MONCRIEFF supported the seemd reading of
the bill pro forma.
After some-remarks from Mr. Stirling, Mr. Cowan,
Sir M. S. Stewart, Mr. Ethos, jun., Mr. Buchanan, and
Mr. S:uart,-

Lord ELCFIO postponed ite second reading fir a
week, when he shoul.l make a similar proposition for
referring the 13111 to a select caro.nittf:e.
MEDICAL PROFESSION AND MEDICAL
CORPORATIONS.

Mr. T. DUNCO :BE obtained leave to introdnc, a
bill to define th, rigid of the tnembera of the medical
profewsion, and to protect the public from the abucee of
medical corporations,