The Sun.
London, England, 1867-05-14 00:00:00

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THE SUN, LONDON, TUESD A Y EVENING, MAY 14, 1867.

U WELL, JAMES, and CO.,
L-1- By Special Appointment to her Majesty the Queen,
their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess of Wales,
and the principal Courts of Europe.
GOLDSMITHS, JEWELLERS, and SILVERSMITHS,
5, REGENT-STREET, PALL-MALL.

NATIONAL REFORM UNION.—
A GREAT REFORM MEETING will be held in
St. James's Hall, Regent-street and Piccadilly, to-morrow
(Wednesday) Evening, May 13, 18G7, at Eight o'clock,
doors open at Seven, to consider theprescut aspect of the
Government, ll,form Bill.

greatest importance that the bill should go on in com-
mittee with as much rapidity as possible. He re-
gretted that some violent speeches had been made
since they last assembled, and he could not
refra;n from saying that such exhibitions of feeling, only
tended to throw obstacles in the way of a sp'edy settle-
ment of the question. Having made some further
reference to the speeches made on the presentation
of the addresses by the Reform Union to Mr. Gla.l-
stoneonSatunlay,the right honourable gentleman went on
to point out the advantage of avoiding all unnecessary and
exciting observations, because by that means he felt cer-
tain they could only obtain that which was the desire
of All, namely, a good and efficient bill which would
be acceptable to the people. (Hear, hear.) With respect
to the Scotch Reform Bill, it was founded in all
respects on the model of the English one, and,
therefore, be felt he need not refer further
to that part of the bill, but he would proceed to refer to
another portion of the measure, viz., the distribution of
seats'. The number of representatives from Scotland was
now 60, and the Government proposed by the bill to give 7
additional members to that part of the United Kingdom.
With respect to the Universities the bill proposed to give
one member to Edinburgh and one to those of Glasgow and
Aberdeen. As to the counties it was proposed to give
an additional member to Lanarkshire, Ayrshire, and Aber-
deenshire. Glasgow would, by the bill, be divided into
"two divisions—the north sending two members, and
the southern division one member to Parliament ; and an
addithinal member would be given to a new group
of burghs to be formed by the bill. There were various
other details with which he would not trouble the house, but
he hoped the best results would follow the, intreduction
of the bill.
Mr. MONCRIEFF, referring to the proposed borough
franchise, pointed out that the circumstances of the Scotch
horouglis were different from those" of the English
boroughs, and expressed something like alarm at the effect
which would be produced by the application of one un-
varying rule in Scotland, and which would in some respects
be the entire reverse of that which was expected to follow
from it in England. As an example of what was likely to
be the operation of the new franchise, the right hon. and
learned. gentleman observed that, in Edinburgh 8,865 per-
sons would be enfranchised under the Government bill, or
about three times as many as would have been admitted
under the £7 franchiSe of the late Ministry. A significant
cheer from the Conservative benches drew from -the right
hon. gentleman the remark that he did not adduce this fact
with the view of taunting Ministers for coming to what
he believed was a sound and practical conclusion, but be-
cause last year they professed to be terrified at the pro-
posal of a much less extension of the franchise in England.
From the liberality of the measure for Scotland he took
occasion to complain of the more restricted scheme of the
English measure; but, after making some suggestions with
reference to the county franchise, he promised that so far
as he was concerned the details of the bill should meet
candid and fair consideration.
Sir J. FERGUSSON said that the bill was founded not
upon statistics, but upon- the principle expounded by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and endeavoured to allay
Mr. Moncrieff's apprehensions on account of the numbers
who would probably be admitted to the possession of the
borough franchise in Scotland by reminding him that the
great majority of his countrymen were remarkable for
their intelligence, and especially well qualified to exercise
the franchise.

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SAMUEL MORLEY, Esq., in the Chair.
The Meeting will be addressed by John Bright, M.P.,
and the following Memburs of Parliament and other gen-
tlemen are expected to be present :
Edward Baines, Esq., M.P.
Thomas Bazley, Esq., M.P.
Thomas Barnes, Esq., M.P.
John Cheetham, Esq., M.P.
Montagu Chambers, Esq.,
M.P.
W. E. Forster, Esq., M.P.
Professor Fawcett, M.P.
Charles Gilpin, Esq, M.P.
Sir John Gray, M.P.
Thomas Hughes, Esq., M.P.
Mr. Alderman Lusk, M.P.
J. Stuart Mill, Esq., M.P.
Admissi

Gold Ena-mel, and Precious Stones.

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Gold and Silver Work, especially designed for the forth-
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T. Bayley Potter. Esq., M.P.
James Stansfeld, Esq., M.P
Sir John Bowring, Bart.
Sir Henry Hoare, Bert.
W. Vernon Harcourt., Esq.,
Q.C.
Josias Alexander, Esq.
Gregory Foster, Esq.
R. M. Holborn, Esq.
11. C. Hextall, E. q. .
Samuel Pope, Esq.
Mr. Deputy Read, F.S.A.
J. B. Torr, Esq.
ion Free.

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great hall apply to Mr. JOHN M. FOX, at the Hotel, Vale
of Health.

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in the discussion which followed, and in which the
Scotch members bore the principal share, there was
pretty general concurrence of opinion in favour of the
main features of the bill. Mr. Baxter went to the extent
of saying that he rejoiced to be able to support a measure
which conferred upon Scotland so much more extensive a
franchise than the bill of the late Government, whilst Mr:
Grant Duff warmly thanked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer for having brought forward the most liberal proposal
that had ever been put before the house with any chance
of being carried. Mr. B. Cochrane congratulated the Go-
vernment on having produced a scheme which, according
to all appearances, gave satisfaction to both sides of the
house. This remark evoked the first expression of dissent
that was heard. It came from Mr. Dunlop, who hesitated
not to say that the bill would, in his opinion, admit to the
borough frauchise the very worst class of householders.
On the other hand, Mr. Lang frankly and gladly accepted
the new franchise; but objection was taken to the pro-
jected distribution of seats by Sir J. Ogilvy, Sir E. Cole-
brooke, Mr. Bouverie (who represents Kilmarnock, one of
the grouped boroughs intended to be "dissolved"), and
Mr. D. M'Laren, who objected to "weeding out" the newly
created boroughs from the counties and converting the lat-
ter into mere " agricultural preserves."
Mr. GLADSTONE —I rise, sir, for the purpose of point-
ing out to the house that we have not had as yet one
single word of information from an authoritative source on
a question of very great interest to the whole of the three
kingdoms, namely, in what manner the additional seats
proposed to be bestowed upon Scotland are to be obtained.
There is not a single English seat proposed to be dealt with
in the English bill in such a manner as to be made dispos-
able for supplying-the wants of Scotland, and it is hardly
possible to suppose that the right hon. gentleman would
contemplate an augmentation of the number of the house
without having first stated it to the house as a political
proposition of very groat breadthand weight. (Hear, hear.)
I remember when, in 1852, there were tour vacant seats,
and when, Parliament being about to dissolve, there
was an understanding that no question was to be in-
troduced except such as was of a necessary and urgent
character, the right hon. gentleman introduced a bill for
disposing of those four seats, upon the plea, not that this
house consisted of too few members, but that it was neces-
sary to raise the house to the constitutional number of 658.
If the right hon. gentleman attaches so much value to
that number, it only confirms me in my belief that, if he
had intended to increase the number of the house, he would
have stated his,intention ; and we therefore seem to be
thrown upon this alternative, that the seven members
whom he proposes to give to Scotland he intends to take
away from Ireland. (Hoar, hear, and laughter.) Whether
he really does intend anything so cruel as that I do not
know ; but if he should, I hope that he will not succeed in
giving effect to it. (Hear, hear.) We have a right to
know whether an addition is to be made to the number of
the house; and if an addition is to be made to its num-
ber, the question should be submitted to the notice of the
house in such a manner as to enable it to form a proper
and impartial judgment upon the matter, and to distribute
tho additional seats according to the relative claims of
each country. (Hear, hear.) As to the general provisions
of the bill, I have not the least doubt that they will under-
go very thorough investigation; but with respect to the
borough franchise, I feel it necessary to say a few words,
and those not of the same character as the words it has
been my duty to use, and I fear may be again my duty to
use, in reference to the extraordinary proposals which have
been made in regard to England, and which, I admit, the
right hon. gentleman was rightly entitled to consider in
the main as proposals adopted by the house. The plan of
the Government, from £lO downwards, gives within the
limits of Scotland enfranchisement without any invidious
or offensive distinction between man and man. But 1 can-
not help fearing that when we descend to the lower part
of the scale in Scotland, as in England, we get upon some
difficult and dangerous ground. Ido not understand
what answer is to be made to the speech of the hon.
member for Greenock. The right hon. gentleman
is determined to avoid introducing into the
Scotch borough franchise what he calls the hard
line. I have never been able to understand the intensity
of the right hon. gentleman's hostility to the hard line—
(hear, hear)—becaase, although he has undoubtedly con-
structed a plan for the franchise in England, and now in
Scotland, in which there is no such line drawn, yet, after
all, if the principle of the lino be so indefensible in the
case of the occupying householder, how are we to defend
the principle of the line in the case of the occupying
lodger and of the county voter? (Hear, hear,) Now, I
do not deny that there is an amount of advantage in get-
ting rid of it; but will the right hon. gentleman be able
to get rid of it, even in Scotland ? In Scotland, in the case
of all lands and heritages under £4 a year, the name of
tenant is not inscribed on the valuation roll. The pro-
prietor is charged with and pays the assessment, but he
has relief against the tenant and the occupier; and that
being so, will he not have every inducement, inasmuch as
he can do it without the cost of one shilling to himself,
to pay the assessment, not in his own name, but in the
name of the tenant, and in that way to make all the
tenants under .£4 voters, and of course voters subject to
influence? (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, that appears to me to
be a very serious matter, b3cause I do not think it is a. de-
sirable relation to make between landlord and tenant.
(Hear, hear.) Again, by the 42d clause of the Scotch Poor
Law Act, it is lawful for parochial boards to exempt from
assessment any person or class of persons on the ground of
inability to pay ; and thus the right hon. gentleman, in his
anxiety to avoid the hard line, places himself in this diffi-
culty, that it depends upon the parochial board to deter-
mine to what' point the franchise shall descend. (Hear,
hear.) I confess Ido not think that is a satisfactory state
of things. The right hon. gentleman was pleased to make
a flattering allusion to me—it was much more than I ex-
pected or deserved—in referring to the difficulties he ex-
periences in the prosecution of the measure of reform.
On that point I shall say nothing, but I cannot help refer-
ring to the allusion which he made to the speeches deli-
vered out of this House. He said that there appeared in
London, since the House last discussed the question, a re-
giment, a body of persons, whom he described as incen-
diaries.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—ObsoIete
incendiaries. (Laughter.) .

31r. (iLADSiCoIii---laOulduriclentand "superannuatod"

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