The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-31 00:00:00

SUBALTERNS OF THE ARMY.

Colonel FREESTUN gave notice that early next
session he should call the attention of the house to the
condition of zho :-übalterns of the army.
• In reply to a question from Mr. CRAWFORD,
Mr. HAMILTON said the answer from the Austrian
Government with reference to the telegraph from Corfu
to Alorandria had not yet been received,
BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENT LAWS.
Mr. NICOLL asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
if it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to
lay upon the table of either house the long-promised bill
to amend the law relating to bankruptcy at d insolvency,
so that members might have an opportunity to consider
the same doting the recess.

Toe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
underitood the Lord Chancellor intended to introduce a
bill of this kind that night in the Mai4e of Lords.
TELEGRAPH TO INDIA.

Mr. WILSON asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, what progress had been inade.in arrangements for
andria, and thence to India, since
completing
eaa
n t
,3 telegraphicAiex
he dates of the last papers upon the subj,ct, recently
laid upon the table of the house ?
Trio CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Turkish Government had granted concessions for carry-
ing the telegraph from Alexandria to Aden, and her
Majesty's Government was in communication with that
purpose, with a view of continuing it on from Aden to
Inuia. It the negotiat4ins were concluded he had every
reas ,n to hope and believe that the line would be com-
menced in the autumn. (Hear, hear.)
TRACTION ENGINES.
Sir DE LACY EVANS asked the President of the
jeiria, Board whether it was intended to act on the
strong recommendations by the official authorities at
Woolwich of Bray's and Boydell's traction engines, as
being likely, in the opinion of these authorities, to prove
of utility to the army in India in facilitating the trans-
, and stores.
poLirtoorfdtrsoropAsN, eLrtEilvlerY
letter was written from the Board of Control to the
said, that on 22d of this month a
Directors at the East India II ,use, containing an official
Import on these traction engines, suggesting that four of
them should be sent to India, viz., two to Calcutta and
two to Bombay. Ho had not yet received a reply from
the Court of Directors. There was no doubt as f 0 the
value of the principle of these engines, but there was as
to whether the working construction was fit for Con-
veSiati6t, of bevy stores in India.
THE CASE OF MRS. TURNER.
Mr TITE asked the hon. member for Hereford, as
one of the Commissioners in Lunacy, whether their
attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Turner,
lately a lunatic patient in Acombe House, near York ;
and, if so, what steps had been taken by the commis
eioners in regard thereto.
Colonel CLIFFORD said the attention of the com-
missioners was called to the case through the news•
Papers on Saturday, and on Monday last they instituted
an inquiry int r the circumstances, and commissioners
were now sittingat York f a- that purpose. (Fleur, hear.)

MONUMENT.
Ta.
Works
Lord TERLEC EIWOBa sLkLe di Nt
he TF°irNs t CN!
whether, as he bad announced his intention of causing a
full-sized model of the Wellington monument to be made
by Mr. Stephens, and placed on the proposed site be-
f'ire anything more is finally decided upon, he wouli
give tho public an opportuai,y of viewing the work of
imy ,rber sculptor who might be willing, on his own rc-
F-poasibility, to make a design anti full-sized m.)del
the mor.u..;ent ?
Lord J. MANNERS sail, a looting the noble lore's
c,n,truetimi of my words on the occa,ion referred to, he
answered his question in the negative.
Lard ELCI-1.0 said t e should early nsxt session take
the sense of the house upon the point raised is his eines.
tion.

that, THIS EVENING'S BUSINESS.• -
Tile CHANCELLORcf the EXCHEQUER said
in c: n; of the state of puhlic huiiness, he
proposed to go on with the orders of the day ht ore he
proposed the afijournment of the house till Monday.
Mr. V. SMITH objected, but did not propose any
amendment.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. DILL.

On the motion for considering the Lords' amendments
to this bill,
Mr. V. SMITH rose to ask certain quePtions con-
nected with India, but at that period of the sess'on it was
not his intention to raise a discussion on the affairs of
India, though he certainly regretted that, notwithataud

ing the house had been occupied dui log a great part of
the latter end of the session with the discussion relating
to the government of India, there has, in fact, been no
discussion on their present and future relations with that
part of the empire. The first question he now wished to
put was connected with the position of the army in India
at the present moment. He wished to learn from the noble
lord the President of the Board of Control what was the
amount of the force at present in India. When the late
Government left office it appeared from the best autho-
rities that it was necessary to have 80,000 European
troops in India, and that was about the number calcu-
lated to be there at that time. It was then calculated
that, owing to the insalubrity of the climate, accidents in
warfare, disease, and deaths in action, reinforcements
ought to be provided to the amount of 20,000 in the
course of the year. The noble lord had stated that since
January last 17,000 men had been sent to India ; bat,
as no troops could be added to this establishment of In
die unless upon application of the East India Company,
he wished to know whether the directors of the Com-
pany had applied to the Government to add to the forces
in India owing to advices they had received, and a de-
sire on their part that the establishment should be in-
creased, or whether those 17,000 only constituted the
necessary amount to supply vacancies caused by disease
and deaths is action. That was an important point, be-
cause they really had no information on the subject ex-
cept from the columns of the newspapers. He made no
complaint on that score, because be knew how difficult
it was to get information from India during the hurry con-
sequent upon actions ; but he thought that by this time it
should be known what was the amount of the European
troops and of the rebel troops in that country. They
knew the number of regiments which had mutinied, and
he believed that no additional levies had been added
to the troops which had mutinied, and the Contin-
gents of the native States which had also mutinied. The
last accounts from India appeared to him to be, so far as
they went, very satisfactory, but the house could not
help observing that, though the British arms were vic-
torious everywhere, and though the mutinous troops
were defeated and dispersed, the latter were not de-
stroyed, but rallied agrin, returned to their former
scenes of action, and retook places. Everything indi-
cated, indeed, not only present and immediate resist-
ance, but long and, he feared, protracted resistance.
Therefore, it was desirable that Parliament should be in•
formed what was the actual condition of the British
troops in India, and what additional amount was in-
tended to be sent oat. His next question related to
another important subject, namely, the organiseitou of
the Military Commission which the noble lord had
issued. On a former occasion he observed that the
composition of that commission had been to a certain
degree altered, and that the civil element had been put
on it. That was an important element, and he was sorry
to see it omitted, though no doubt there might be eat is •
factory reasons for the omission. The public, however,
wished to be informed of the nature and powers of the
commission. He was told that the Governor-Gene-
ral had i-sued circulars, through Colonel Durrant,
to procure information, and no doubt the informa-
tion received in answer to those circulars might
be useful in respect to tt e future organisation
of the army. He wished to know what was intended on
that paint. The sepoy element seemed to have broken
down, and some people veer anx:ous to introduce the
Sikhs and Goorkae into the army. Bat those were
troops which required great supervision on the part of
our own troops, and though the Sikhs, cornbinii g with
the English in action, were under present circumstances
poweiful allies, they might be hereafter dangerous ene-
mies. It was, therefore, doubtful whether any ell those
troops could be trusted alone. That was an important
question, as hitherto the British had been able to keep
the country by means of the troops they had con-
quered in action. It the comtnission could really sit at
oresent and go into all these details, it might not be a
bad commission, but if the commission were to be insti-
tuted, for the Government to rely on hereafter, that was
not a course worthy of a British Minister, and one which
he trusted that the noble lord would not pursue. (Hear.)
He hoped that there would be men on the nettle lord's
Council competent to institute a plan for the re-oganisa-
tion of the Indian army much better than any cominis-
-ion. There was plenty of information on the subject,
compri-ing the opinions of Sir H. Lewrence, General
Jacob, aria General Napier. The third subject on which
he wished to obtain information referred to our fiscal 1
relations with India. At an early period of the present'
eeeeionati Act was passed enabling the East India Com-
pany to borrow 8,000 0001. between the time at which
the measure became law and the month of April, 1859.
That Act contained a clause providing that the Com-
pany should present to Parliament at the cot= acemeut
of the next session a statement of their finances, showing
what amount they had borrowed and how much re-
mained in their hands. He thought, however, that the
noble lord might be able to inform the house what
amount the East India Company ad actually borrowed
up to this time, and whether he believed the amount they
were emp wired to bcerow would cover the expenses
likely to be incurred up to the period referred to in
the Act. In order to render this information cam
p!ete, the house ought also to know what amount of
bills had been drawn upon India. The usual practice
was to receive money from m-rchants in this country,
giving them bills upon India, and the transactions of
,his nature amounted to about 4,000,0001. annually.
That system was discontinued when the act was passed,
as it was thought imprudent to draw upon the Indian
finances at a time when money might be urgently re-
quired for the public service. If loans bad been nego-
tiated in India last year more sue essfully than during
he previous year, it was probable that bills were not
drawn upon India ia the usual method ; and he hoped
the noble lord would be able to afford some information
to the house upon that point. The last queetton lie
wished to ask was whether any instructions bad been
sent, or would be sent, to proclaim her Mejesty's name
and authority in India, and to announce the intentions
of the Government as to non-interference with tue re-
ligion of the natives. The noble lord had, on a firmer
occasion, answered the first part of this question, by
stating that it was his intention that a proclamation
establishing government in the Queen's name should be
issued is India. The noble lord did not state whether
such proclamation would be sent from this country, but
if it were not done, ho (Mr. Smith) thought instructions
ought to be given to the Governor-General of India to
ia
ue
greatest importance, upon which misunderstanding
otherapaprrtocolfatnaio the
histl,-letsotiothnat effect
referre wdti t delay. T
othaeusuLject,,fThe,
ipar) operleasign atthi
eo nn
vtehse
oQf
India
cmsida-able change, but differ•
might regard it as a means of introducing and forcing
enmweaii ltie'att thweeeraopnsuriolleytdiaoatninreioosafe:admo'iiuegljrhyt Thet' be put upon it. Souse persons
wasbetbaeere'otepawn?e6dt
such a mis-
anlihereo:stniostt—edtitrai
tthiins
Ch
desirablehrsiostmi Christianity
eittxhypalutaptnohanet
ort triproclamation
nl
shouldid ipreventt
• • of affairs in India there had been a
disinclination to maintain the truth of our own religious
faith, and that too great a deference had been paid to the
countryao ep ri ea lti
ee n
ads mis-
apprehension.
direction
theet
her other
well-founded h
thatre li g itohne oof
othv
eernnamtievnets . 8
hll,,
uel tdbaedr e„fpetr es
ot Inameu
mg hotaintsa, dbv;
pa brol
elamation or otherwise, of declaring that, while they
were fully prepared to maintain the Christian faith, they
would be most jealeue of any interference with the reli-
gion of the natives, and would cautiously guard against
any indiscretion in that respect on the pert of persons
employed in the public service. He thought the noble
lord might fairly take Parliament into his confidence
upon these suijects, for upon him devolved a greater
task than had periaaes fallen to the lot of any Minister
—a task almost as great as that of founding a new
empire in India. In his (Ur. V. Smith's) opinion the
task of those who bad been engaged for two chilturies in
establishing the Indian empire was less difficult than
that which now devolved upon the Briti-h nation of re
establishing that empire, the glory of which had been
destroyed by the late mutiny, although be hoped it
would still continue one of the most important and valu-
able possessions of the British Crown,
Mr. STAPLETON said the noble lord the President
of the Board of Control, in moving the second reading
of the Government of India Bill, had stated that the
arrangemen' 8 then contemplated with reeard to the non-
scientific branches of the Indian army were merely tem-
porary, and that the whole subject of the reorganisation
of than army was to be referred to a commission ; and he
begged to ask whether the members of the Council for
the affairs of India to be appointed by Government
would be appointed subject to any subsequent decision of
Parliament with respect to appointments of cidetships ?
Mr. RICH thought the observations of his right bon.
friend (Mr. V. Smith) implied some distrust with regard
to the proclamation which the noble lord had intimated
his intention of issuing ; but he could only say, from
the declarations which had been made by the noble
lord in the course of the discussions on the India
Bill, that in his opinion Parliament might entertain
full and entire confidence that the noble lord, in deal-
ing with this great subject, would act with firmness and
moderation, and would temper justice with mercy.
His right hoe. friend (tlr. V. Smith) had totaely
ignored a large body of our fellow-subjects in India, who
had, with very trifling exceptions, thr iugheut most try-
ing circumstances maintained their loyalty—the armies
of .Madras and Bombay. (Hear, hear) The right hon.
gentleman had also ignored the loyalty of a number of
the native princes, who had magna• ineously upheld B,i-
tish dominion. (Hear.) He felt confident, however, that
the noble lord, while he a,serted the proud dominion of
En-eland, would at the earns time recogn!ze the loyal
spirit which had been manifested throughout India by
large bodies of our Indian fellow-subjects.
Lord STANLEY—The house is entitled to demand,
and I think the pubtic may fairly expect to receive, some
information upon these important questions to which
thie right hon, member for Northampton (Mr, V. Smith)
has referred ; and I ens glad he has aff tried me an op-
portunity of briefly stating to :he house what I believe
to be the position of aflaira with regard to the points to
which be has cal'el attention. In the first place, I
have been asked as to the extent of the European fore-
at present in India, and I think the right hon. gentl, -
man also inquired whether we could form any estimate
of the strength of those bodi,os of inutoieers to whom
our troops are opposed in the field. Now, upon the latter
point I a-n afraid it is not possible for me, or indeed for
any one even in India, to form an accurate judgment. It
does appear that of late the organized insurrection has
and generally avoicbng confi et
try, eluding pursuit,
se
uv
re
grye
nwhts ear
ree bsecean defeated,
t tered far a
nb t thviTaaet
throughout parties of
thearmed
cooni n
_-
with our troops. Under these circumstances it is utterly
impossible for any ens to say what is the
_strength of

the mutineers. It is probably unkuewn, not only to any
British general, but to any leader of the insurgence.
(Hear, bear.) This is more likely to be the case,
because I learn—not from any official report, bet
from private letters—that at the time when the in-
surrection existed in a more organized form than I
hope is the case at present, recruiting went on ra-
pidly among the insurgents, and that some of the
revolted Sepoy regiments regularly enlisted new re-
cruits, forming in one instance a second battalion, with
a view of preserving in some degree the military order
and discipline to stitch they had been accusteteed in
our service. As to the strength of our European force
I am able to give a more satisfactory answer. ;The rigor
non. gentleman stated a few nights ago that he had seen
some account which represented the effec ive European
force in India as being reduced to 26,000 men. I am
happy to say that that account is very far below the
reality. (Hear, hear.) I have obtained from the War D -
pertinent the la'est return which they possess of ih
strength of the Queen's army, and perhaps the beet
course I can take wilt be to read, not the return al I
have it, but a summary of the totals. The total number
of Europeans in the Queen's army snaposed to be in
India or on their way out was 78 416 ; but. from that it
is fair to say there must be deducted 7,456 men who
were reported sick at the time when these returns were
made, and 11,059 were draughts on their way out.
These troops will probably have arrived at the present
time, and will constitute part of the effective s rength of
the force, which will thus comprise nearly 71,000 men.
The returns are not all of the same date ; some are dated
the let of May, others the Ist of June ; and, of course,
further deduct' s—l am afraid a con- iderab c red ucti
—must be made for ca-uatties since that time. But the
fact remains that the Queen's army at the date of the
latest returns numbered nearly CO 000 effective men,
and about 11,000 draughts on their way out. (Hear.)
With regard to the Company's forces, I have obtained
a memorandum from the East India House, which is
made up partly by ac nal statements of facts and partly
by estimate to the lit of July. It gives a total of
15.855 Company's troops (European). That number is
made up, I should say, by adding tne troops embarked
in June and July, arid now on their way ; but there is
also a deduction of 1,192 for casualties, estimated upon
the proportion of loss which has occurred up to the date
of which we have informatien. I need not say that
no estimate of this kind can be entirely reliable, and
therefore the
.papers which I quote must be looked
upon as forming as approximate calculation only.
We have thus, however, an estimated strength
of 15 800 Company's troops and 71,000 Queen'.
troops (all Europeans), making a total of between
86,000 and 87,000 Europeans ; and it is obvious that,
after the largest deduction which it can be necessary to
make (and I am afraid that deduction must be a heavy
one) for losses sustained by service io the field and by
sickness consequent on exposure since the date to which
these returns refer—after, I say, making the largest anti
most liberal deduction on that acceunt, we may still con
eider that we have between 70 000 and 80,000 effective
men certainly above 70,000.—fur service in India
(Hear.) I was asked by the right hon. eentleman bow
many of the men sent out since January last were, at
the request of the directors of the C -mpany, added to
the establishment in India, distinguishing them, I sup-
Pore, from the number of draughty and recruits ? On
this point I have received a memorandum from the East
India House, dated the 23d of this month, giving e
figures which I quoted in the hmise the otlise day. 1
teen P!:,.3 nearly 17,000 had been sent out between
January and July. Tne exact number I find is 16 730,
and of those all are draughts or recruits except 634 be-
ing eight companies of her Majority'. 57 u Re4imeni.
Toe 16,000 are, therefore, draughts and recruits. Other
regiments have been despatched fr an various parts of
the world. The house will remember that at an early
period of the insurrection application was made—not,
accnrdieg to form, through the Board of Directors here,
but direct y—at the Cape and other places, and there re-
quest's were, from the urgency of the occasion, acceded
io without waiting for orders from home. Witty regard
to the sec end question addresed to the by the right hon.
gentleman, as to the objects of the c nnarission which
is to inquire into the organisation of the Indian
army, thinti I shall best reply by reading the heads
of the inquiry upon which it 13 intended that that com-
miasion shall enter. They a- e
"1. The terms on which the army of the East India
Company are to be transferred to the Crown.
" 2. The permanent force necessary to be maintained in
the Indian provinces respectively after the restoration of
tranquillity.
"3. The proportion which European should bear to
Native troops, in infantry, cavalry, and artillery respec-
tively
" 4. How far the European portion of the army should
be composed of troops of the line. taking India as part of
the regular tour of service, and how ftr of troops raised for
service iu India only.
"5. In connexion with this question the best means of
providing for the periodical relief of the former portion,
and of securing the affieiency of the latter.
"6. Whether it be possible to consolidate the European
forces, so as to allow of exchange from one branch of the
service to the other, and what re_uletions would be neces-
saryand practicable to effect this object with perfect ju tice
to the claims of all officers now in the service of the East
India Company ?
"7. Whether there would be any admixture of Euro-
pean and native forces, either regimentally or by brigade?
"8. Whether the local European force should be kept,
up by draughts and volunteers from the line, or should be,
as at present, separately recruited for in Great Britain ?
"9. Whether it would be possible to raise any regiments
in the colonies, either for temporary or permanent service
in India i

"10. Whether the native forces should be regular or
irregular, or both, and if so, in what proportions?
" 11. Whether any native artillery corps should be
sanctioned?

"12. Whether cadets sent out for service with nativo
troops should in the first instance be attached to European
regiments, to secure uniformity of drill and discipline ?"
Tease are the neads of the inquiry proposed. As to
the reference made to the (noddle& iou which has taken
place in the constitution of the commission, it was origi-
nally considered desirable that, besides the civilians who
are officially to sit upon it, there should be three other
gentlemen of eminence in public life who should give it
the benefit of their experience and of their services ; but
from various circumstances, and more especially oon•
eidering the time of year at which this commissi n was
to sit—the first meeting havine taken place in the
c ,urse of the present week, and the next being fire t for
Tuesday—it was found so difficult to obtain the services
of those who we desire should sit upon the eornnui-tsion
that that part of he scheme was abandoned. It is
quite true that an inquiry—the nature of which I de
not exactly know—upon the same euttject is taking
place in India ; hut though, of course, there are many
advantages in iiistituti, g an investigation of that kind
upon the' spot, one great disadvan age attends it—
namely, that the great majority of those officers whose
services would be most valuable are actively engaged,
and are unable, therefore, to give their attention o it.
Tnis objection does not apply in the same degree to those
who have either retired from the service, or who, on the
ground ,f health, have lately returned from India, and
I am happy to say we have many of that description
whose advice and assistance will be most valuable. Be-
fore I leave the suject of the eommi-sion I will state that
it is not intended and cannot be int eided, to lessen in
any the slightest degree the responsibility which must
devolve upon the Government for the settlement of this
very large question. (Hear, hear.) The ultimate de-
cision, be it what it may, mu-t depend upon the re-
sponsibility of the Government of the day, and the re-
port of the commission of inquiry will carry with it no
other weight than that which is derived from the
eminence of its members, the experience and know-
ledge they bring to bear upon the subject, and the
soundness of the reasons they employ. (Hear, hear.)
I have been told that some arrangements woicia I pro-
posed on the second reading have been departed from,
because patronage which formerly rested with the
direc ors will henceforth be vested in the Crown
Now, in recommending that proposition to the
approval of the house, my wish was to carry on as
far as possible the analogy of the syetein which
actually exists ; and I confess I think the hon. member
who referred to the subject, when he describes the mem-
bers of this Council as being taken entirely from one
claw° of society, whereae members ef the Court of Dew-
tors were taken from quite another, has, to use the
mildest term, entirely ovt ratated the case. Certainly a
large and very valuable section of ail former Courts of
Directors always censiwed of men of ledian service and
experience ; but I m,y remind the house that there is
in the bill as it stands an actual legal provision that a
majority, and something more, of the Council should be
taken from that same class. Then the same hon. mem-
ber asked me whether it was intended that the arrange-
ment with regard to the non-scientific military appoint.
ments should be provisional only, and subject to the
report of the commission, or whether it was i ten led as
a pro:lament arrangement. Now, it is obvious that
what one Act of Parliament has sanctioned another at
any future period can overthrow. As to the objection
that compensation might be claimed where any appoint-
ments of this kind were taken away, we have shown. I
think, what our fee ings are upon that point by the 14th
cleuse of the bill, in which it is stated expressly that if
the Council itself were abolished within 10 years no
claim for compensation could arise. (Hear.) Naturally,
as discussion has gone on we have seen our way more
clearly, but I do not think it is proper—though, of
course, it is in the power of Parliament to deal with the
subject as it will—that any measure taken fof the re-
organization of the Indian army should involve a change
in the manner in which the first app 'intments will be
made. I teink the question of first appoin.mente, and
that of the discipline and reorganization of the army
afterwards, are distinc questions, and that it is quite
possible to deal with the one without touching the other.
Now, with regard to the financial part of the quest on
connected with India. to which the right hon, gentleman
bas referred, 1 think I can test satisfy the wishes of
hon. members by reading an exirac which I have re-
c&ved from the Ea=t India House. That extract states
at,

4` The Indian Loan Act conferred the power
of borrowing
Which has been already used to the extent of „, 4,421,000

Leaving yet available the power of borrowing
Add, R 3,579,000
13111(13 : Unissued portion
of 7,000,001,
May b 3 issued to replace those noti-
fied for discharge
Ditto, to replace those now depo-
sited with Bank of England,
which will be available on loan
being paid off in October, 1858, 1,000,000
------ 2,789,500

May be borrowed on debentures and bonds ,„ £6,368,500
T.lO disbursements of the 11,,me Treasury to
the 31st of January, HO, in excess of the
present cash balance, are estimated at £5,172,201:1
" The means of the Home Treasury are therefore estimated
to be more than adequate to meet, the disbursements until
next session, without including the sums that way roaliged

for Court's bills on India, or from the sale of Exelequer bills
and bonds now in hand (1,598,900%)
" In this estimate the receipts from railway comi.;auies are
not included."

(Eli a , bear) From a consideration of those fienres,
which de not no ode the rec. ipt from railway cemnahieet
I think i- will t e found that no -tie ement which I have
to m•lre in ens eer to the right hoe, gentleman is eatis-
fectory so far as the fina. real part of tee qneetion ie cen-
earned. (Hear, hear.) I new come to the question
which the right hon. gentleman has put to me isi refer-
ence to the proclamation which he id of opinion it would
be desirable to i-sue when the transfer of the govern •
meat of India to the Crown has been completed. In
reply to the right hon. gentleman's observations upon
that point, I can or ly say that, both on account of the
importance of the occasion and also to guard against
misconstruction, I think that th t transfer ought to be
in some manner f virally notified to the people
of India. (Hear, hear.) So far as our interference with
the •el gion of the natives is concerned, I shall content
myself with observing that there is in a recant despatch
cif Lord Eilenborough's, dated the 13th of April, a PaP
sage which I shalt quote, simply because it expresses in
language clear, r and more forcible than any ee wbicb 1
could give utterance my own feelings and that of
Government of which I am a member upon the subjects
(The noble lord then read an extract from the despatch
in qu-stion, stating that the Government would be
guided by a polies of neutrality and good faith in re'
ference to matters affecting the religion of the natives of
India, and most earnestly calling upon all the authorities
in India not to afford the slightest pie
cause for the sus the
ion
that that policy had undergone or would undergo an,
change.) (Hear, hear.) T. ose are the opinions of her
Majeeey's present advisers. (Hear, hear.) That PO;
sag- expieses sentiments in which I fully concur, and
deem it highly desirable that, whether by proclamation
or by some other means, the fullest assurance should he
elven to the natives of Ir dia that the change which
about to take place in the Government of that country ill
not intended to involve any change in the policy of the
Government. (Hear, hear) Wiih regard to the man-
ner in which the announcement in question ought to be
made, I may be prricittecl to say that I do net thinlE it
is usual to put, a- it were, into the mouth of the Geyer-
nor-General of India the words in which it should he
couched, without leavir g to him any discretion ae to the
modification or withholding altogether of any particular
form of expression. That is a point which yet remelt'''.
under he consideration of the Gor.r.ruent ; but I LI
nay that my own individual impres-ion is that the We
advisable tours to take with respect to it would be t°
state in general terms to Lord Canning that which we
wish t • be done, leaving i to his own di-cretinn to ,t 1,":
such languwee as be may deem expedient, (Hear.) .
sus eer to the que-tioa of the right hon.gentleinan on tut-
point therefore is, that there will bean aunouneement
the transfer of the Government of India from the ColnPe%
t the Crown,and that duo care will be taken to assure th
pe pie of that country that the change is not meant to Ini
terfere with their ideas or nabits in regard to matters e
religious belief (Cheers.)
Mr. SPOONER thought that the answer which the
noble lord had just given to the question which bad beeo
put to him by the right hon. gentleman opposite in refe`
rence to the issue of a proclamation was one which mutt
be looked upon as being of considerable in:porta:ay. 11";',a
noble lord state' tLat neutrality in matters of religie,
;
was the principle upon which her Majesty's Minister
were prepared to base the future government of India.
$
Now, if by the word "neutrality" the noble lord nieso f
that no attempt would be made to compel the natives %
that country to become converts to Christianity, to er."t
a policy he could not of ject. But it by the use of thet
term it was intended to t e conveyer to the pee Pie
India that it was a matter of indifference to a Christ';
s.'
Government whether idolatry still continued to Pre:3lo
in a lerg- portion of her Maje•ty's dominion or not, tell&
from the expediency of ad.'ptiog such a course be rnttra
hog to express his dis-ent. He bad beard the noble I°lit,
the member t r Tiverton on a former occasion gieebed
teranee to the conviction that our Indian empire our
been given to us not for the mere gratification of etn.
ambition, and to enable eifferent members of the °as
munity to enter upon a field where they might toniTiet
fortunes, but fez. higher and nobl. r purposes. In, tfaio
sentiment he fully concurred, and he should rnatn„—gt.
that we had not acted in accordance with it in Manue-00
ing our "neutrality" by paying for the maintenahof
and encourageenent of idolatrous practices—sit spil3tbe
which,. he had been ieforined, we were not even 1" the
present moment entirely clear. He was afraid
008
speech of the noble lord ens calculated to create ea ell
misapprehension with . respect to a subject bereiti
ethers the most important, and he could not refry 084
Irons stating it to be his opinion that while we den' otre
that we were prepared to pursue the policy of nut le'
pelting the natives of India to become converts to -
tianity, we should not shrink from p: ()claiming tbeEll'oire
tian religion to be the right one, and from setting ue nee
them the truth in the best and least offensive roas-bi
in which we coull do so—thus taking that coureetrie
which this country might become the honoured ine.4te
meet of carrying out Christianity in conjunction
Christian eivilizetion. (Hear.)
eee of
Mr. ROEBUCK said that nothing but a seerol
public duty could Induce him to enter into such t",P000.
subject as that which was involved in religions 41180 bf
siou. The example had, however, been set -to hie 00
the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, and actin% of
the principle which bad been laid down in a despot° ire
Lord E leuboreugh—tiarn-ly, that as private me 0100
ought not to do that as pnelle men which as public', be
orb alould condemn—he should merely observe this;r is
test assured we should secure more beneficial resn''' 0'
the case of the people of India by conducting our rerel
c-edinost in their regard in accordance with the V.°, of
ertncioples of justce, than by resorting to a P°1„.1"00.)
mi
proselytising or missiarisie ,g in that country. bof
Mr KINNAIRD also regretted that the deePate,
Lord Ellenboiough should have been referred to, aiolf
(Die ht be misunderstood by the country, and it certseesl
did not agree with what had been stated by the noble
at the bead of toe Government. (Hear.) That nob 1!) the
die inc ly stated that he wished to carry out in fool" be
policy which when at the head of the Colonial-eine:oo
carried out in Ceylon, and entirely to d6coorlecce of
Government of this c tuatry with the maintenan (or
idolatrous worship in that country. That was lettilere,
trary to what had fallen from the noble lord the eoite
dent of the Board of Control. He (Mr. Kinnaird) 4001
agreed agreed that the authority of the Government ought
to be brought to bear on matters of religion—(lle,tioa
but the proper course was not neutrality but tolerb t 0
of all religions. Christian converts were se 10°,000
titled to protection and employment as any other P- the
—(hear)—but the complaint was that in I(ic!bich
Christians had not that fair and eqnal justice " told
was extended to all ether sects, and now theytverepiet
there was to be no change in that respect. ode
statement would not be very satisfactory to the 02entecl•
Ile regretted that the question had been we" the
for during the whole of the discussions uPOn pee
home government of India he bad carefully atie,; bee°
from bringing it before the house, but as it had
raised he could oak express his regret that the ;col
lard had not made a statement as plain and di,itiobee4
that which had been made by the noble earl at the
of the Gevernment. (Hear, hear ) 08
Mr. BOWYER could not understand what it We ber)
hon, member for North Warwickshire (Mr. SPrWriai
wanted. There wero already three Protestant biehlot
in India, but the hon. member thought the Goverr.)e 10
iefluence should be used to propagate Christial2l,"
that country.
kind.
Mr. SPOONER—I never said anything of the
eid
Mr. BOWYER, thought the hon. gentleman ha l 6,10 i
the Government ought to show a desire for the sPreit- soot
Christianity—that at should use all its moral iena'reli'
but trot force, for that purpee. But there WAS 0)300'
urinary difficulty which the hon. gentleman had 001
sidered. What kind of Christianity was to be tat(33:obt
(Hear, and laughter.) The hon. gentleman n 0 100
considered hint (\lr. Bowyer) to be little better th be'
r) Hinde idolater—(laughter)—and the hon. men3heviooo
hind him (Mr. Gilpin), although not an idoratero wet'
hardly be received by the hon. member for North the
wickslaire as a Christian. Therefore, before requiri% of
Government to use i s influence for the propalatiagoe
Christianity it would be better to decide what Chrlooo
oily was meant. (Hear.) There was one point etc
winch he should wish to receive some information'to
the eirect dominion of India was to be handed 0;r001
the Crown, he wished so know whether there tv°e„ the
be some style or title added to those possessed 'Jo it!
Crown to show such dominion ? To do so would eof
accordance with histor cal precedents, as in the et;000,
Wales, which having been added to the royal dotoi00 0'
was given in perpetuity as a style to the e dest e 0
toll
the Sovereign. Mien a large portion of Francele
into the hands of the English S vereign the eilieetr
King of France was adopted, and again, when by toeca,
ce stun of James I. to the Erigiish th. one cc:,ite°
canoe under one rulr r the King became ruler of the t'o ea
ll
Kingdom of Great Britain. It might be urged
0,110
objection, that d India were recogni ed among the be 0.1
of the Sovereign the celenies world also wish to
recognised. Lie did nut consider 'hat would be et tbe
edjec ton, as it had never been the cistom to adallopea
styls of a colony unless acquired by conquest. lie 004
some means would be devised of including ludia a
the tit es of Royalty borne by her Majesty. lor4
Col. SYKES said the declaration of the nohlseroto,
would, he believed, do more to remove the dangle pf
distrust which now pervaded the minds of the 10"feese
India than the most brilliant and Contiouousnucoe,:ja
cur areas, He congratulated the noble lord upon, ;RI
claration, upon his liberal feelings, his enlarge' was,
and his generous sentiments. (Hear ) From Pergoicr
experierice he could deny the existence of any Prelortaee
against Carietan converts in India He bad on, .0 Oa
occasions given instances of their employmenb;,,
• lie service and of other advantages being o'eeiebV
pu
upon them. The principle in India had been inl,!.tbett
te select men for the public service according t-rforls
capacity .firr the duties they were required to Per
quite espeo I ive f their religious views or sent:100o
I t bad ale" been the object f the Indian Ginetr°A
far many years to separate itself entire y from idolsiffieet-o
usages and practices. It had given up the Pilgrd frog
•Lt Alnahabad and nad abandoned the lands het orea.,,
Juger remit, value at three Inc • of rupees. Itoie$:11
sr:Eau:ally entirely oisconnect it-ell troin tiler° 00:',6
fleece of idolatrous worship, but it could not,uhe 00%
lie repea ed that the declai in ion of 1,13 a th,P6,
: ird would do more fir us in India than anyoli.b; d'
id Leen eta iken dun ing the whole progress 1'
0
iussion in that house. (Hear.)
atisieu fainted
Mr. Mr. GILPIN txpre-sad his unqualified s trestle.
with the mane, r is which the question had beeutrof °to
by tt a nob:e lo :J. (Hear, bear) Those wh_eia
sired the spread of Cnristianity in India w" 1000.'0
see Christianity kept free from tho e horriblte. wi.ea
winch, whether conimMed by black men °
_nljf ltitch
en, were u tsrly frneign to its nature, area ", to to 10
for a lair field fur those who were dispose.oein ibis'
Christianity for its own sake. He could.not 4'

retrr-
vould
,7tlll