The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-02 00:00:00

,E SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY

EVENING, JULY 2, 1858.

had been that he had given notice of extensive amend-
ments, which removed every objection with respect
both to patronage and to the expenditure of revenue.
(Hear, hear.) But his object in rising at present was to
moos a single point with reference to the principle of
election as it stood in the clause under consideration.
Immediately after the words which the committee
bad just passed, "or having been theretofore such
directors," he wished to insert the words " not being
nominees of the Crown." He desired that the elective
principle should be sustained as much as possible ; but
there was no security in the clause that five out of the
seven members of Council whom the Court of Directors
were to select might not be nominees of the Crown, and,
as the first vacancy would be filled up by another nomi-
nee, it was quite possible that at the very Commence-
ment 14 out of the 15 members of Council would be
nominees of the Crown. His amendment would obviate
that result, which none could desire, and be therefore
hoped it would receive the assent of the committee.
Lord STANLEY agreed with the right hon. baronet
'that the discussion the other evening upon the third
clause had been productive of advantage, inasmuch as it
had shown the necessity of providing some further secu-
rity than existed in the bill against financial abuses.
(Hear, hear.) The Government would be ready at all
times to receive any suggestion from the right hon.
baronet with that respect to which it was entitled ; but
the proposition which he had now made did not seem to
be calculated to carry out the object for which it was
intended. It was clear that the elected members of the
Council would cease to be nominees from the moment of
their election. Because a man bad been once nomi-
nated by the Crown to a certain office it did not follow,
if he were subsequently elected to the same office, that
he would remain for life a nominee of the Crown. (Hear,
hear.) If the Government had not thought that the
Court of Directors were fitted to be intrusted with the
powers of electing seven independent members of the
Conned they would not have conferred such power upon
them ; but, having come to the conclusion that they
ought to be so trusted, they wished to leave their die-
cretion as unfettered as possible. (Hear, bear.)
The amendment was negatived without a division,
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to submit to the Government
the propriety of an alteration in the relative numbers r f
the nominated and elected members of Council. The
tenure cf good behaviour, unless carefully watched and
guarded. had a very great tendency to lapse into sine-
cure. It was proposed in the formation of the Council
to secure something like a balance between election and
nomination ; but the plan adopted in the bill might
tend to the appointment of a large preponderance cf
nominees, since vacanciei were to be filled up alternately
by nomination by the Crown and by election by the
Council, in which the nominee members constituted the
majority. He therefore proposed that instead of seven
members elected by the directors, the number should be
ten ; and, if that proposition were agreed to, he should
afterwards move that five members should be nominated
by the Crown instead of eight.
Lord STANLEY said that if the proposition of the
right hon. member for the University of Oxford were
carried, a small minority of the Council comparatively
would be nominated, and the maj )rity would be elected
by the process of self-election. When it was sa'd that,
as the ball stood, the elec ion would be carried by par-
sons the majority of whom were nominated by the
Crown, he must remind the committee that those nomi-
nees were appointed for life, and would therefore be in-
dependent of any Minister. The oljeet of the bill was
to strike a balance between the nominated and elected
members, and he did think that object would be attained
by the division of the Council into 10 elected and five
nominated moral:era.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that, of curse, the desire of
the committ-e was to have, as far as possible, an indepeu•
dent Council, and he believed that the persons nom-
nated by the Crown for life, and devoting their minds to
Indian business, would be independent of the Govern-
ment. He should therefore vote in favour of that part
of the clause which the right hon. member for the Uni-
ve,sity f Oxford ❑ow proposed to alter.
Mr.C.FORTESCUE trusted that the committee would
no! consent to increase the number of the elected mem-
ber 3.

tier E. PERRY inquired whether the Government
would introduce into the bill a provision declaring that
none but gentlemen capable of devoting their whole
time to the bindoese should be members of the council ?
Lord STANLEY said, thatas members of the council
would receive large salaries and have the disposal of a
considerable amount of patronage, it was reasonable to
expect that they would devote their time to the perfor-
mance cf the public duties assigned to them. That would
be the understanding, but he did not propose to insert in
the bill any restriction in the choice of the directors.
The nominated members would be appointed on that
understimdinoe
Mr. GLADSTONE suggested that the Government
should take poser in the bill to reduce the number of
the Council whe❑ vacancies occurred, if it should be
found that for the transaction of business so large a
number of members as was now proposed was not re-
quired.
Mr. V. SMITH observed that most of the directors
had some other business to attend to, either being
bankers or connected with public companies. %Vali re-
gard to the salaries of members of the Council he thought
those members who were nominated, and who devoted
their whole time to the duties of their office, would fully
deserve 1,2001. a-year, while the elected members, who
would probably be engaged in commercial occupations,
would be overpaid it they received that amount. in his
opinion some rule should be laid down as to the time
which the elected members should devote to their duties,
inctead of leaving the matter entirely to the honour of
iadividuale He wished to know if two or three mem-
bers of the Coon. it died how the vacancies were to be
supplied, letmauae under the system proposed the propor-
tions of the Cmncii might fur a time bo disturbed.
Mr. AYRTON believed that there were eo statutory
regulations which prohibited pmsoes in public offices
from engaging in other occupations, and his impression
was that the only iofiaence which could be brought to
bear, in Case of any misconduct in this respect, was that
which was exercised by Parliament upon the Govern-
ment, and by the Government upon the persons who
ueld public offices.
Mr. W. VANSITTART hoped that if the members
of the Council were to receive salaries of 1,200/: a year
the suggestion of the hon. and learned member for Da•
voriport would be adopted,
Sir G. LE WV, said that in the case of the members
of Council for India, some adequate security ought to
be taken that they would bona fide devote their whole
time to the service of the Crown,
Lord STANLEY said the understanding would be
that persons who accepted the position of raembers cf
Caunc 1 should do so on condition that they devoted
their whole time to the duties which they were called
upon to discharge. He would have no objection to pr
pose the insertion irr the bill of a clause to effect
that object, if he could satisfy himself that it would be
p ssible to frame a clause which would meet every case
that might arim. Many members of that house were
aware that not only subordinate officers in . the Govern•
Lomat, but a gentleman who had held a very important
position in a former Administration, had been partners
in mercantile establishments. He believed that the gen-
tleman to whom he referred took no active part in the
management of the establishment, .with which he was
connected, and that the partnership was merely nominal,
but, undoubtedly, ho was a partner ; and he (Lord Stan-
ley) did not know what right the house would have to
say that a geotleman in such a position should not be
capable cf holding an appointment intim public ser-
vice. The gentlemen who might camp )se the Citified
for India would accept their appointments on the under-
standing that they were to devote their whole time
to their official duties, and as there would be a power of
removing them fir misconduct, a breach of that under-
standing would undoubtedly be held to he a violation of
of their contract under the terms of the bill. With re-
gard to the number of the Council the Government
might no doubt be empowered to reduce them if they
were found t mi numerous to do the work of the Council,
but such a power had better be left in the bands of Par•
liar/lent, He did not wish to pronounce any opinion
upon the question. If a necessity should arise ;fur
making any alterat;on in that respect nothing could be
easier than for the Micister to come to the house and
propose a remedy. They had been told that they ought
to insert a proviso limiting the choice of the Crow❑ to
those who were not members of that house ; but he did
not think that that was either a necessary or an ade-
quate security. Tne Government would be infinitely
wore injured by the appoietanent of a person from un-
worthy motives than they, could be benefitted by his
votes in that house. 3:Co--Government ought to be left
free to cbocee such as they saw beet adapted to do the
work of the Council. With respem: to the objection of
the right here gentleman opposite, that no provision had
been made fur the elected and the nominated members
dying alternately, be did-not know how to guard against
the possible disparity of numbers suggested by the right
hon. gentleman. All that the Government could do
was to take care that at the outset the arrangement as
between the two classes—the nominated and the elected
—should be a fair one. They could not do anything
more c►lculated to make a Council of this kind work
badly than establishing a permanent distinction between
the elected and the nominated members. (Hear.)
Sir E.PERRY tenders ood that it was the int,?ntion of
the noble lord that the members of the Council should
not be engaged in any other business, but as the noble
lon seemed to think that there would be a difficulty
in framing a clause to secure that, he begged to suggest
that some such words as those in the Act of 1793,
whereby all theme employed in the service of the East
India Company were prohibited from attending to any
other busirmss, should be added to the clause.

Sir G. C. LEWIS apprehended that the object of that
act was to prevent servants of the East India Company,
while it was a trading compo.ny,- from personally engag.
log in any other business. (Hear, hear.) If any words
were necesrary he thought that those in the order,' of
the Poor Law C raorniuianers requiring persons employed
by a Poor Law union to devote ail their time to its
service should be adapted to the case of the Council.
Mr. T. BARING said if any provision against the
members of the Council being employed in any other
bus:ne: a were inserted the noble lord miizht bo driven to
appoint men who could do no other buine,F; than that
of the Council. (Bear, hear, and a laugh) He did not
think that the C ,uncil should be axoluded from seats in
that house. Advisers acd not were dello were what
they wanted.; ..
Toe SOLICITC.R-GENERAL reminded the com-
mittee that what his nods friend had said with respect
to the employment of their time by the Council was

_ ._.._.. _
simply this,—that it wa txpeot,d that the time of every
person who joined the CJuncil should be at the disposal
of the Council, But to frame a clausa by which every
member of the Council would be botind to he eogned
in no trade or traffics whatever was a very different mat-
ter. Such an arrangement with regard to the Govern-
ment would have deprived the country a few years ago
of the services of one of its most able men, inasmuch as
be was a member of a mercantile firm at the same time