The Sun.
London, England, 1858-04-13 00:00:00

SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 12, 18.58

Russian war, it was 44,250 ; and now, in 1858, it has risen
to 99,512. The committee will bear in mind the gigantic
expenditure and the vast additional labour occasioned by
this change. I am sure the hon. member for Lambe h
himself will admit it is abso utely impossible to construct
and repair our present gigantic steamships in the same
dockyards in which were constructed and repaired our
smaller sailing ships of some years ago. In the course
of the last six years the machinery for our ships and our
dockyards has cost us no less than 3,687,0001. Of
course, the Russian war was the main cause of that
expenditure ; but we cannot maintain our navy in a
proper condition without incurring an expenditure to
which we have hitherto been unaccustomed. I have

had never beard such a good and clear speech as that just
delivered. (Hear, bear.) He had spoken so well of the
propriety of maintaining and keeping up the discipline
of the navy and its efficiency, that he might almost have
supposed him a sailor himself. (A. laugh.) The right horn
baronet had also gone far to do away with the stupid no-
tion that it was improper to discuss these naval estimates
for fear foreigners might make use of the informatiod to
our injury. The right hon. baronet had stated that the
navy never was in a better condition. That was the state-
ment made by all First Lords of the Admiralty, neverthe-
less he quite agreed with the statement to-night, that we
never had so fine a navy, or a better set of ships than at
this moment. (Hoar, hear.) But the navy never would
have reached that state of efficiency if they had no discus-
sions upon its management. There was, it might be re-
membered, first, the old Navy Boatel ; then there was a
surveyor appointed, who built ship without any bnttoms.
(A. laugh.) They had the old " tin pot" system ; but then
came the appointment of that excellent officer Sir Baldwin
Walker, the present Surveyor-General of the Navy, than
whom, if they searched the country over, they could not
find a better. They had only to look at the ships he had
sent out, to see how much the country was indebted to
him. 'Upon the efficiency of the navy they might be well
satisfied. They had four screw ships of the line, of 803-
horse power--the Marlborough, the Royal sovereign,
Conqueror, and Renown. They had one of 70)-horse
power—the Duke of Wellington. They had six screw
ships of 600-horse power, three ships of 500 horse power,
and five from 400 to 459-horse power. All these ship,
were afloat, aryl that was the state of their steam navy.
But they had also others repairing, converting, en" build-
ing. Of these they had two ships (the Victoria and the
Howe) each of 1,090-horsepo fromwer 0
five ship
tshieps 40o0f.ho80risle
power.se power,
The wer,
-
horse
heonudse wouldseven chips
re adily suppose that to be
very fine navy ; but, notwithsten Hug that, he die p-
proved of discontinuing the arming and building of ships
for the French Goverurnent were on the alert, as they
would see trout the following list of the French navy,
which he had received from a French naval officer, of
which those in commission in February, 1838, were—Bre-
tagne, 130 guns ; Algesiras, 90 guns ; Arcole, at guns ;
Eylau, 90 guns; Prince .femme, 90 guns; Ulm, 90 guns;
Austerlitz, 90 guns; Tage, 90 guns; Donawerth, 80 guns;
Tourville, 80 guns. The Fleece had two ships afloat of
114 guns, and one of 130 guns. Altogether they had 23
large screw ships of the line afloat, and 15 repairing, con-
verting, or building. Now, although that fleet might not
be so strong as the British, they should recollect that they
often required two or three fleets to watch one fleet, so as
to : revent it from doing mischief. There should be no re-
laxation in building screw ships, for sailing vessels were now
of no use whatever ; but while they were building these
fine ships, it was necessary to give one caution more—via ,
that they must recollect that probably in ten years' time
they would be superseded by new and improved and more
formidable armaments. Ships would be built with iron
sides and iron batteries against which, if they brought an
ordinary threeelecker such as they were now building, she
would be entirely useless. Let them take a frigate of 30
guns and fit her up as he had suggested, and then put
one of their present three-deekers against her with all her
armament, and let them fire away, and see which would
get the best of it. (A. laugh.) Yes, hon. gentlemen might
laught, but it was nevertheless true. The right hon. ba-
ronet had said truly that ships were not the navy, and
that was true. Io men they they were deficient, and al-
though it had been denied, an order bad been issued in
May, 1857, by the First Lord of the Admiralty, giving per-
mission for men and boys to discharge themselves from the
navy. That was to be blamed; nevertheless the Prime Mini-
sterrather than the Admiralty was in fault for that step.
The Prime Miuister sliould have come down to the house
and showed the necessity of keeping this fine force afloat.
The Secret cry of the Admiralty had given as a reason for
this the large force of the French navy. He (Sir C. Napier)
had pointed out the stateof the Fr inch navy to Sir C. Wood
in 1856, The hoe. goad gallant officer next complained of
the improper discharge of men who had come forward in
.our hour of need, and whose places, when thus discharged,
it was difficult to fill when occasion arose. The next error
of the Government which he pointed out was, that they
had not in many places screw ships instead of sailing ves-
sels in commission, whereas screw ships, he contended,
ought always to have tho preference. When he had stated
this last session he was pooh poohed ; but before the late
Government went out they had begun to act upon this
principle, and he was glad to find that the present Govern-
ment would do the same. All the best ships should be fully
manned, so that when a ship was ut in commission she
could go alongside the flaeship and receive her first draft of
men and marines, and by this means she might be got
ready for sea iu one month instead of lying five months.
The men to be drafted from the flagship would be continu-
ous service men ; but it was always best to allow them the
opportunity of volunteering if possible. If the crews of
ships were reduced, instead of being fully paid off, a great
saving would be effected. Certain vessels which he named
were paid off in M ay, 1856, and on the 20th of June the
news arrived of the rebellion in India. If that fleet lead
not been paid off they might have taken out the guns,
drafted half their men, and in less than 48 hours they
could have sent out 10,003 or 12,000 men out to India;
and let them fancy how many lives the timely arrival of
such a fleet would have saved. (Haar, hear.) Not only
89, but this could have been done at a total cost of some
4,0001. to 6,000/ , instead of paying at the rate of 401. or
501. a head as we had done. He next combated the asser-
tion that it was nun messary to give the sailors bounty, and
pointed out the good effects arising from the bounty given
to soldiers. He complained of the abolition of the good
conduct pay given to seamen who had conducted them-
selves satisfactorily on foreign stations, and asserted that
faith should iu every particular be kept with the men.
Petty officers should be allowed nut only the stripes but
the pay which attached to them. With respect to the
coast guard, the present number was 7,380, who were sup-
posed to be composed of the best class of seamen. But
after serving five years in the coast guard they were not
obliged to come forward to serve again ; and what was a
man worth when for fifteen years he bail been comfortably
located on shore? (Hear, hear.) If the coast guard were
obliged to serve a portion of their time they would volun-
teer ; but at present they could get their pensions without
cluing so. In the Baltic campaign he had found the coast
guards and Welsh seamen most deserving men, always
striving to sustain proper discipline, and he was glad that
r all the coast guard men for the future were to be seamen,
r but this could not be done all at once. The drill of ufty-
eight days was not enough, and measures should be taken
to secure greater efficiency. In case of emergency, France
just now would be able to man her fleet before we could
man ours. We must have a Channel Squadron, and man
it—(hear, hear)—and if our present estimates would not
do, we must hove others. What we wanted was a alieis-
ter who would come down to the House of Commons and
say, " Unless you give me money enough to man the Chan-
nel fleet, you must get some one else to rule the country,
ford won't." (Laeghte, and chess.) Tf a, MiListcr were
to make such a speech as that, he would be cheered from
one end of the house to the other, and from one end of the
country to the other. (Hear, hear.) He believed they
might now look forward to better days. (Hear, hear.) The
constitution of the Admiralty wanted reforming. The
Admiralty was now under a First Lord who ought to be a
Secretary of State. He had five advisers at the Admiralty
and five other advisors at Somerset-house. The Comp-
troller of.the Victualling department, the Surveyor of the
Navy, the Accountant-General, and the Storkeeper-Gene-
ral—thme are at Somerset-house; and the gallant admiral
paid a high compliment to the character and efficiency of
each of them. He urged that they should be allowed to
perform teueir own duties and be made responsible for them.
The First Lord of the Admiralty and his two naval ad-
visers should look after the discipline of the fleet and all
the public establishments. If he wished to man a fleet of
aay ten sail of the line, his course would be simple enough.
the
st Physiciane:ier:iato,rylf,gplittohoti
IrtoF)eo.: like eat;
f,citora); pro-
vide He would write to the Surveyor of the Navy to get ten
sail of the lino ready ; to the Comptroller of the Victual-
ling empartinent, to get provisions ready for ten sad of the
line; to the Storekeeper-General to provide stores for ten
sail of the line ; and tecoooefmthitranhe
medical officers. But the present plan of sending
Lords of the Admiralty down to Somerset House was as
much as to tell them that they were all rogues, and that
there-
foretc enyt
rthohlaettyl h
esneroon
.tc on ni
,fie dt
Lordea
re
into the management of the navy anti if it reported that
it was well managed, let it remain as it was ; but if it re-
ported that it was not well managed, no one would then
venture to deny that it was time some change was ma Is.
As an illustration of the operation of the present routine,
an
him admiral,
he
was ande n then
is reen
ol .
f
tho gallant rommal related the correspondent 3 to which he
was subjected on being, the ether day, appointed a full
admiral. The Secretary of the Admiralty sent him a writ-
hteilleatteprr,itnetlelt latter ring ll
m
(Laughter.) Then came a letter signed by two Lordsadt
the Admiralty to tell him that he was au admiral. (Re-
newedlaughter) He then received a letter, telling him to
hoist his flag, and subsequently another letter, telling him
to lower his fl ,g, with other communications from the
Accountant-General and the Admiral at Portsmouth.
(Laughter.) It was all nonsense. (Cheers and laughter.)
He thought now that there was some chance of matters
being looked into and amended. He was gl id to learn
that there were men enough in the ships coming home to
man the Channel fleet, and that if not, the First Lord Of
the Admiralty woul.l come down to the house to ask for
more men. [Sir J. Pakington here gave, across the table,
some verbal explanation which we could not catch.] Sir
C. Napier continued, by observing that he was glad at all
events that we were to have a Channel fleet—(hear, hear,
and cheers) —and concluded with an expression of his
gratitude to the hou-e for having listened with so much
aetention to his observations, which he feared were to
many members so:newha,t tiresome.
SirJ. YAKINGTON said the hon. and gallant admiral had
reminded him of an omission. The number of volunteers
at present enrolled was 5,800; of that number 4,600 had
been actually taken on beard ship—(hear, hear)—and were
well practiced io gunnery. (Cheers )
Sir CHARLES WOOD, whose opening observations
were inaudible in the gallery
"said—The right hoe. and were ereeted with loud
cries of " Speak up, speak
gen-
tleman opposite in the observations ho bad made regard-
ing _
the paying off of the continuous service, appeared
entirely to forgot the circumstances under which that step
had been taken. Ho would remind the committee that in
January, 1857, when the estimates were proP°"d' we were
in a state of the most profound peace with every t,he Europeanhouse
power, and the number of men then proposed to
for the n oval establishment was 33,000,
uler
which, for a peace
being considerab'y in excess of any number ever voted
en.
establishment, certainly could rot be said to be small, it
before, except in 1853, when the country was
in
actualthe num-
ticipet ion of war. In the month of April,
40 000 and it
House
of Commons had sanctioned, it beiog.then P .ee
would, he thought, be in the recollection of the committee
n itt
num-
ber of men was actu 7,000 in excess of what the
for
Chan-
cellor of the Ezchequer, and the noble lore the member
that the leaders of all the
urged upon the
the City of Louden, for instance, strongly
Government the necessity of economy and retrenchment.
nt upon the
Under these circumstances it was incumbent
lown the
Government, as speedily as possible, to bring
e House of
number of men to what had been voted by t
the month of
groat parties, the present
Commons, which was accordingly
men who were anxious to leave the servhree d
over
Notwithstanding thatproceedirg, however,
texcesse
the
the numbers vc.ted was still about 3,000, and certainly
May, by allowing a certain numberdiOnfecointihuor.tios seorviscoe
faith. ,
an Nor was
it, as the hon and gallant admiral supp y
in regarding that step as a breach o
edis-
dos_ h
.es
right honourable gentleman opposite wafs in no way Justi-
fied
knowledge, accepted
their discharge upon one side of
for in many cases they, to his own
e
deck as 'continuous
the
couragernent to the continuous service mon t erns 1 ,
service hien, but re-entered the service on the other at a
lower rato of remuneration, but without
th
they were in e
10 years' compulsory service, by which
d to the pay-
first-named capacity bound ; and with regae
en,
1 of the
ing off the ships, there was a reduction theateastiog
the condition of
and pro-
found under circumstances promising 1
ty's Government
a judgment, and so situated, her )leiee .
those
could have had no reasonable pretext for keeping all
found peace, so fur as it was possible at that time to form
ships in commission. The hon. and gallant member urged
that had they been kept in comnsis,don troops might him.)
been sent with great expedition to India. Into that ques-

already expressed my regret that the late Government
took, under pressure, a step which deprived us of 3,C00
of our seamen, and I no less regret that under the
same pressure they threw out of commission seven or eight
ships and several frigates last year, every one of which is
now being refitted for commission at great expense to the
country. Ido not blame the late Government for having
done so, and, in fact, admit that I am responsible for hav-
ing contributed to the pressure under which they acted ;
but if ever there was a case of penny wise and pound fool-
ish, it was that throwing out of commission ships upon
which we are now spending thousands upon thousands to
put them in sailing order. (Hear.) The whole strength of
our dockyards is now being applied to therepair of those
ships which were last year thrown out of commission. I

am therefore justified in saying that the present pressure
upon our dockyards is exceptional, and that increases my
reluctance to propose an unprecedented amount of force in
our dockyards until I am satisfied of its necessity. I can-
not touch this part of the question without requesting the
attention of the committee to a subject which I know has
for several yeses attracted the attention of naval men as it
bas that of the present Government during the abort time
they have been in office. I allude to that most objection-
able and unwise practice of commissioning our ships for
only three years. (Hear, hear.) It is most costly and most
injurious to discipline. In proof of that I beg to state a few
facts as to the refitting of two of our largest line-of-battle
sailing ships. I have not been able to ascertain the cost of
refitting steamships ; hut no doubt it is greater than that
of refitting sailing ships. I have here a statement of the
expense of refitting the Queen from the time of her first
commission in 1815 down to 1'52, and of refitting the
Rodney, one of our largest sailing ships, from her first com-
mission iu 184) down to the last year she was in commis-
sion, viz., 1656, and this is the result :—The expense of
each refitting the Queen was 19,923/. and of each refitting
the Rodney 22,9961. So that the mean expense of refitting
each of them was 21,4571. If each of them were refitted
three times in 10 years each cost three times that amount :
and if refitted twice each cost twice that sum. We find that
the mere saving of one refittal of one of such ships in le
years is a saving of 21,452/. ; and if to this we add the
additional cost of refitting steam-ships we shall easily per-
ceive that the country would save a vast amount of money
if the practice of commissioning for merely three years,
which necessitates such constant refittings, were abolished.
(Hear.) It is notorious that our large line-of-battle ships
are not refitted in less than nine months, and that some of
our best naval officers are not satisfied unless the line-of-
battle ship to which they may have been commissioned
requires one year and a-half for refitting. In this way
half the time for which a shipis commissioned is often lost,
so that we find we are not only losing money by the system,
but that a large portion of the time for which ships are
commissioned is taken up is putting them into proper
order. A point arises here which cannot but be regarded
as one of considerable importance. If we were to adopt
permanently the system of commissioning ships for four
years—my own feeling would be for five years—but, at
any rate, if we were to allow the rule of commissioning
ships for a longer time than at present, one of the results
would necessarily be to produce a material effect on the
position and prospects of the officers of the navy. (Ffear,
hear.) The number of officers distributed among the ships
would be diminished in proportion to the extension of the
period of commission, and this raises a question which we
are bound seriously to consider. I am not prepared defini•
tively to announce the intentions of the Government on
the subject, but I think it is unquestionably one of those
grave questions connected with the administration of the
navy which we are called on to consider, and I may say
that it will receive our best attention. We are boon I to
take care, not only of the pay and position of the officers,
but also of their efficiency, and to promote their efficiency
it is desirable that they should be able to go to sea for a
fair term of service. We think a longer period of
service than at present should be established, but at the
same time we see the difficulty arising from the position of
the officers. We hope, however, to be able at no distant
time to effect the improvement we desire in such a way
as to promote economy without injuring the prospects of
those pliant officers whose best iutorests we are al a•ays
bound to keep in view. (Hear.) In further illustration
of what I have said I may mention that there are at this
moment nine ships in dock, not one of which has been in
commission more than three years, and they have all been
refitted at great cost to the country. If the system of five
years' commission had been acted on, not one of these ships
need have been fitted up as they had been at so great an
expense. (Hear, hear.) Having stated our views as to the
system of commission, I shall now direct the attention of
the committee to what I must call the unprecedented esti-
mate of 12,190 men for the dockyards. I believe th 3
largest dockyard establishment ever voted by Parliament
was that of last year—viz , 10,850 men, being the same as
had been voted in 1856-7; but now in 1853 the late Go-
vernment proposed to vote 12,190 men. I cannot help
thinking that, on the whole, these excessive votes for dock-
yard establishments have been subject to irregularity. I
beg to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman the
member for Halifax (Sir C Wood) to the fact that this
question of dockyard establishments was the subject ef
inquiry before a committee of the House of Commons in
181, and that that committee made a distinct recommen-
dation that there :hould be a permanent dockyard esta-
blishment of 9,621 men, which recommendation was au-
thorized by an order in Council passed in 1850. Notwith-
staneing that order in Council, however, we had last year
an establishment of 10,850 men, and this year we have had
a proposal for 12,190 men. Now, I cannot but think that
it would be better either to repeal the order in Council or
to have an annual order in Council passed, and thus to go
on in a business-like manner, than to be exceeding the
fixed number of 9,621 men, thus practically setting aside
the order altogether. (Hoer, hear.) It is not the inten-
tion of the Government to ask in the present vote
for more than 10,850, being the same as last year.
The committee will see that for the reasons I some time
ago mentioned the present pressure on our dockyards
is exceptional. I am of opinion that, notwithstand-
ing what I have said as to the increase of our ships,
the establishment will be found to be sufficient.
What I propose, then, is that, instead of increasing the
establishment, we should take a vote of 50,0001. to be
spent on hired labour, and in making up extra hours. I
ought to state that during the last three or four years,
when we hare hid ao teitels:ishaisaiL ea 10,6;3 men, that
number has been exceeded by the employment of hired
labourers, sometimes to the extent of 400 or 500 men. My
proposal now, however, i 3 that 50,0 01. shall be expended
on hired labour. This is 100,0001. more than the vote of
last yea • but the actual increase is only 50,0001., there
being a diminution of 50,000/. upon the amount proposed
by the late Government. (Hear, hear.) I must add this
remark, however, that if at the close of the summer we
find that the money taken for this purpose is not enough,
I shall have no hesitation in coating to the house before
Parliamentthat
any
iinjury
ury proroguesshouldt
ao
caesk
tu
ef or
to other
ep
u5b01,020,3
e/r
vriacteh. e(rHt
ehaarn,
hear.) The next vote to which I shall refer is that for
naval stores. The vote for naval stores in 1857-8 was
1,395,4501. The vote proposed by the late Government
for 1858-9 was 1,164,7421. From this increased vote the
present Government proposes to deduct 7 eOOOl (Hear,
hear.) This sum of 75,0001 is divided into three items.
In the first place, there is 15,0001. which it is proposed to
take off whet are called general stores. There is next
10,0001. for ships to be built by contract or procured by
purchase. I cannot learn from all the inquiry I can make
that there is any prospect either of building ships by con-
tract or of purchasing them, so that there seems to be no
necessity for any such sum. (Hear, hear.) The largest
portion of the amount deducted is 50,000/. for steam ma-
chinery. The vote proposed by the late Government for
steam machinery was 300,0001. We propose, as I have
stated, to reduce it by 50,000/., making the whole sum
250,00.1. (Hear, hear.) During the last six years
we have expended nearly 4,000,000/. on steam machinery.
Now, I say, let us by all means expend as much money
on steam machinery as may be really required ; but
I beiove that all the ships now being prepared
for launching this year may be completed, and yet
a reduction of 50,0031. be effected. (Hear, hear )
Before quitting this subject I wish to state that the Govern
meat are of o, iuion that, considering the enormous amount
of property which the country has acquired by au expendi-
ture of nearly 4,0,0,0001., including the present veto, we
are bound to see that it is properly cared for, and that the
country receives the fullest benefit from it. It is therefore
our intention to issue a small commis ion of scientific men
to investigate the condition of the machinery, and to re-
port upon the best course to be taken with regard to it.
I do not mean to imply that there is any neglect on the
part of those who are charged with it. On the 0, ntrary,
during the short visit I recently made to the dockyard
everything I saw was of a nature to convince me that the
greatest care is taken of it; but I do not thine that any-
thing but good can arise from the dockyard officials being
male aware that they aro liable to have their conduct oc-
casionally overlooked and supervised, sod it is only a wise
elution on our parts to institute some inquiry as ito the
best means of preserving in an efficient state that which
has cost the country so much money. (Elear, hear ) The
next vote is vote 11, for new works. The vote in 1857.8
was 578,4151.—the late Government proposed to make it
for this year 694,61 q., but after having carefully gone
through all the items, it appears to us that it may be re-
duced to 585,8621, which will be a saving on the original
estimate of 108,756/. When we get to the vote in com-
mittee I shall be prepared to give further explanations iu
regard to it, but it consists of a great many small items,
and I will only now allude to three of the largest-25 o''ol.
for the purchase of land near Davenport, 15,000/. for the
purchose of land near Haslar, and-15,00 1. for the dockyard
at Malta. I am not prepared to say that these votes may
not ultimately be lessened, hut having inquired very
closely into the works inj each case, I do not see any
reason why this money should be taken this year, or that
any harm will be produced by the postponement of the
vote, The next vote on which we effect a reduction is vote
17, for,the transport sot vice. In 1557-8 207,5001. was voted
under this head, and the late Government proposed this
year to take 495,0001. The great difference between these
two sums exists only in appearance and not in reality, for
the vote of last year was found to be greatly insufficient,
and 200,000/., I think, ha i to be taken oat of a stun voted
for the Chinese war, and therefore fairly ;applicable to the
conveyance of troops to China, to maim up the deficiency.
The present government are of that we may reduce
this vote by 85,000/.-45,0001. on freight, and 40,0001. on
tauhepnp
the saving in coals consequent on that reduction. We are
eolon7a,rboolfetdBestl,oothdo this by paying off several of the bird steam-
transports employed
this 13y
oahoitien-7rsMt,
voteoh aejoewlBs.
lat,7yo'olesenpt
rrrevoodoopuptoecss
the;
oapins.
employed in China, the places of which will be
aof reductionOhmBe,
wointhvtolitee
estimates of the late government besireio 318,7561. The
excess of the original estimates thoseg
932,6017., not including the over of 3 1-8 was
reduc-
tions which we make bring packet service, but the reduc-
I have now stated the generalthatexcess dowu to 613,8 E/.
Government have arrived as p7gase
r6noelef.dr,e.,
,roeoos result,
t,;
resultsl at which her Majesty's
could without any appearance, cleallrely and concisely as I
views of the late Government, but solely' of
cen'uring the
with the ce ect of
explaining to the committee what I coec •
to be required by the service of the country.
stioir sly believe
In the office which I have the honour to oil ear, hear.)
am assisted
by some of the ablest and most distinguished
officers and
I may say for them, as well as for myself, that we hav'e but
one object in view, to secure economy, to avoid unnecessary
expenditure, but, above all, to maintain the naval force of
England the point which is required for the honour,
dignity, and safety of the country. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. baronet concluded by moving the first vote, that the
naval force for the year 1,458 be 59,380 men and boys.
Sir CHARLE
NAPIER said, that of all the state.
mints he had heard trona First Lords of the Admiralty, he

tion it was not his intention at present to enter, but the
only mode by which ships could be made available for
.4nch unforeseen necessities would be the some. hat costly

plan of keeping up iu time of peace a wsr establishment.
ff such a policy was desired, or would be sanotioned by the
House of Commons, he felt sure that there would have
been no difficulty either on his own part or on that of the
right hon. gentleman now at the head of the Admiralty, in
keeping up an efficient fleet, and getting the requisite
number of men for the service • but it would involve vast
and endless expense, such as the house would hardly sanc-
tion. As far as the naval branch of the service was con-
cerned, the late Government had maintained a larger peace
establishment than was ever before proposed. He had to
thank the right hon. gentleman for the mention made by
:rim of the encouragement given by the late Government
o the coast-guard service and the naval volunteers. It had
always been a matter of great difficulty to maintain such
a body of men in efficient order, as a reserve in times of
emergency, awl to this point he had devoted a great deal
of attention. Such a body of men now existed, and he
could not but regerd has the greatest boon to the country.
He did not wish to take the credit of it himself, for
his predecessors were equally entitled to do so. It
had been the subject of much care, and the result
had realised all the expectations he bad ever formed
respecting it. (Hear, hear.) During the last year the
ce ti
a- gnus! r dTamountedThese
htao, d
eoboos e
qmueenn, t
loyf
fallen l
eont
0,0 2,3,00 were
in other words, there had been au addition of 600 seamen
to that trench of the service, awl in the course of the last
year he had inspected a large number of them, and he was
hound to say th .t a finer or abler body of men he had
never seen in his life. They had a reserve of 6,000 picked
seamen, who served at least five years each, and they
torneed the best possible nucleus of a first class naval esta-
irlishment. He was sorry to fin I that the right hon. gen-
leman proposed a reduction of 10,0001. for the additional
,ccommodation required for these men. It was indispen-
sable that the accommodation should be made complete,
and that the men should be well treated, The naval coast
volunteers formed the cheapest and most efficient branch
of the service, and the results from their incorporation ex-
ceeded all expectation. He regretted to find that an alte-
ration of the votes 8 and 10 was propose I. (Hear, hear.)
It was not necessary, in his opinion, to reduce by i'so,o 01.
the estimate for wages, and 59,01)0/. for steamship build-
ing purposes. (Hear ) Th increase in the number of hands
was continue.' down to March last, anti the reductions
were effected slowly. When the number was reduced to
what it had been at the beginning of the war, he thought
be had amply provided for the adequate performance of
all the work, yet he was surprised to find that from every
yard there was a cry that the work was getting behind
hand, and from no yard was that cry lender than it was
' from that of Portsmouth. Under these circumstances, the
reduction now proposed took him by surprise, especially as
it was well understood that if we are to keep our maritime
supremacy, we must maintain our naval establishments in
a thorough state of efficiency. Sailing ships would now be
no longer employed in warfare, and when he was at the
Admiralty, he had been most desirous of giving an impetus
to that portion of the dockyard d titles. It was for that rea-
son he proposed an increase of 100,0001. iu thelest estimate,
end a corresponding, increase of si,ooo men. He was a firm
believer in the alliance, but the effect of their cea-ing to
build would be felt five years helve, and who could say
what would be the state of things five years hence? He
was opposed, then, to the reduction of the votes for build-
ing ships, and the purchase of steam machinery. During
the Russian war they built a largo number of ships in
private yards, which, for vessels of inferior tonnage, could
be done more cheaply than in the dockyards. Indeed, the
builders must have lost money by the transaction, for
they did the work without regard to expense, under the
pressure of a great national emergency. Larger vessels
could not be so advantageously built in private yards, for
it would not suit the purposes of many builders to keep
large timber in stock, His objection extended, moreover,
to the mode in which the reduction was to be made. In
ordinary times the wages of dockyard labourers were kept
a little below the wages given in private yards, but the
men had regular employment, and some other advantages,
so that a constant supply of shipwrights was had. Iu
private yards 12s. a day was often given to shipwrights,
and they would not hope to be able to compete with them.
It was good policy, theresre, to maintain, during peace as
many men as would do the ordinary work at ordinary pay,
and to employ their resources in increasing both the work
and the pay in time of war. If the right hon. gentleman,
then, expel led that power in time of peace, he might de-
pend upon it that, having made a reduction then, he
would not be able to make the increase during war. He
trj '.std, likewise, to his reductions to the extent of
15,0001. for hemp and other stores. The right hon. gentle-
man, he thought, was also unwise in delaying the pur-
.'ha-e of land for dockyard purposes, for by so doing he
would find that he was increasing the ultimate outlay.
He hoped the right hon. gentleman would take into consi-
deration the points he had submitted to him, anti the only
object of which was to secure the maintenance of the
navy in a state of efficiency.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said that the right hon. gentle-
man had. spoken of the folly of keeping up the expenses of
war in time of peace. As a general proposition, there was
no denying that ; but what was the meaning precisely of
a war establishment and being in a tate of peace, and
keeping up your relative position with other nations f
(Hear, and laughter.) In all those questions it was not
necessary that there should be a declaration of war. A
gentleman iu the country was more likely to quarrel with
a neighbour than with some one who lived in another
country ; and so, if we quarrelled at all, it would moat
probably be with a neighbour. Now who was our nearest
neighbour? Was he a eull, slow, lieavy, matter-of-fact,
red-tapist sort of gentleman like ourselves or the Germans?
They need not fear a sudden attack from the Germans, but
this was a lively gentleman. (Rear, and laughter.) They
roust judge of his probable future conduct by his nest, and
in times past he hr.d acted by coups de main. Would he
make a declaration of war, and then give them a month's
notice to bring their coastguards on board their ships?
Never. He was much too wise a man ; he understood his
business too well. Now, it ought to be observed that a
maritime force was not an essential condition of any coun-
try but this, France was not a whit weaker for losing Tra-
falgar ; but if we lost the mastery of the sea, there was an
end of us; or if our ships of war were prevented from
coming from Plymouth to Portsmouth, or from Porta-
-1 mouth to the Thames, it would be all the same. We must
be ready for action at all times. Yet it was a pity they
weld not believe fair-spoken honest people. He believed
the Emperor of the French was above board with us, and
ever since he had come to the Throne he had acted toward
us in the most straightforward manner. He quite agreed
with the right hon. gentleman the late Lord of the Admi-
ralty in many of the reasons he had shown against the re-
duction in the estimates, and concurred with him in the
opinion that any cutting down of our naval defences under
present circumstances was a most unwise economy.
Mr. CURRY, in replying to the various objections,
regretted that these men had been discharged from the
service. Objection had been taken to the reduction of
his
tight hOOO. in the wages
thlo.
friend
ha of
been
e theen artificers,
misunderstood
k f
such
b ul i
eihnut falling
es hnh cl to
contingencyrt htl
o,isgiuthbe t
ewdeuais
t es.
aTelteoreen wt
inntoh
the chance hdaencekey
aorfdtheb
ewtorikf
likely to arise, the Government would ask for an additional
vote. The plan of permitting men to work overtime was
intended to operate temporarily, not permanently. tie was
much impressed with the importance of increased activity
in repairing and building ships of the line, more especially
screw ships. Of late years there had been a diminution in
the number of ships of the line ; but the cost of building
these armed vessels was considerably greater than in for-
mer years. He fully agreed in the opinion that the work
in the dockyards ought not to be relaxed. The reduction
in the amount asked for hemp had been made in accord-
ance with the report of the Storekeeper-General.
Sir G. PECHELL should leave the question of the for-
mality or informality of these revised votes to be settled
between the present and the late First Lord of the Mini
ralty. But he rejoiced to find it announced from the Trea-
sury bench that many of those reforms for which he had
eentearied for so many years, were to be carried out. The
present First Lord had frankly declared that he would
listen to complaints, and he had no doubt that the case of
the half-pey officers of Greenwich Hospital would receive
censideration. But he feared that the co tinuoue service
men Wen likely still to lab .ur under a disadvantage The
services oLthose men, raised into importance by his friend
Sir G. Berkeley, had been much misunderstood. These
tuen, on the cessation of the Crimean war, had entered the
againvmerchantservice
triedwith
tthe
enterconsent of the
e navye !ul rtahletyy , l
whenut
were
met w
kinds of difficulties. The First Lord had
spoken of the difficulty of raising men in Portsmouth.
(" No, no," from Sir J. Fakingtou.) The real difficulty
lay in the stasidarri of height set up. All our sailors did
not like to serve for five or ten years, and this operated
with they
ailer
of Cube and
thisA.frice he
prejudicially to the raising of men. On the subject of the
1 sums account
on
ewxePrereLked, an assurance would be given that. what was
done with a view to the extinction of the abo-
done was
• bier trade iu slaves. He had long urged that gun-
boats o forse
(Irma cruisers
hope
thoant
theai n coastsc
e s e
Id not navigate some of these waters. The honourable
could
gallant admiral also contended for the necessity of
and
limiting the Board of Admiralty to naval men.
tale should supersede the ships of large draught, which
Mr. BENTINCK bad listened to the speech of the First
Lord with considerable pleasure, believing it to be the first
indication that imp, ovement was to take plans in the ad-
ministration of the nave. He regretted that reductions
likely to affect our naval efficiency were in contemplation,
although the Government had frankly stated that these
reductions would not be persisted in if they were found
prejudicial. He rejoiced to hear that for the future we
ought to have an efficient squadron, (Hear, hear.) But
this conertry, if it deserved its reputation, ought fo be
prepared for emergencies. As a matter of commercial
prudence he asked whether it would not be wise to pro-
vide against even the contingency of the landing of foreign
troops on our shores. (Hear.) The late First Lord now
spoke of the necessity of our keeping up our naval de-
fences, but he did not think that the right hon. gentleman's
Administration had acted up to this newly-born zeal.
With regard to the means of raising men, he feared they
would fail if the continuous service system were aban-
doned. He rejoiced that the present debate had not been
defaced by any oneof thoce absurd cries for economy which
were rife some years ago. He had no hesitation in saying
th
At
naval, owing
inff
40,000,030/. had been wasted in the course of the Russian
war. But he should despair of an efficient administration
of the
r
focus of political patronage, and civilians ruled its destinies.
Admiral WALCOTT sincerely hoped that the reductions
propos d might net impair the service, and relied on the
promise of tie First Lord, that he would proceed with
caution ; but he could not but think that retrenchment at
this moment was ' unwise. It would be well for the future to
adapt our naval strength to that which might be opposed to
us, but this could not be done by building only one class of
ships. He had no fear of invasion. (Hear, hear.) The
Thames alone would supply us with men to line our southern
coast to meet the invader if he came. (Hear, hear.) Still a
state of preparation was the best safeguard against war.
(Hear, hear.) He implored the house to maintain an efficient
navy, in order to avoid any possible disaster.
Lerd CLARENCE PAGET thought it would be wise for
the Government to pause in the construction of enormous
battle ships. He did not believe the French were acting in
the construction of ships. they were waiting to see what
we should do. He did nst believe that in any future wars
line-of-battle ships would teas any prominent part.
He be-
lieved that in ten years there would be no three-deckers, and
t .erefore he thought a wasteful expenditure to go on build-
ing such ships. He recommended the right bon. gentleman
to call the naval officers together, and consult them as to the
best means of constructing ships, and what ships should be
substituted for line-of-battle ships. There was a fal:acy at
the Admiralty that the navy did not desire to carry troops.
Why, that was a libel on the navy. They considered it a
great honour to carry troops. What was required was an
improved construction of ships. The chi s ought to be con.
structed to carry sixteen days' coals and six months' pro-
visions for 500 men, and such ships could be constructed.
With regard to manning the navy, he thought that when men
were sent home to their friends after the return of a ship to
port they should be taken back to that ship after the expira-
tion of their leave of absence, and not sent to str 'nge ships,
where they beeame what the Sailors called " ktupid-nume•

Lord PALMERSTON said he entirely agreed in the great
importance of having an efficient naval service. It was ab-
solutely necessary for our security that our navy should be
in an efficient condition. There were three great naval powers
—France, Russia, and the United States—all of them almost
without colonial establishments—all of them so far indepen-
dent of naval war, that even naval reversesdid not materially
affect them ; while on the other hand, our insular position
made naval protection essential for our security, and we had
vast colonial possessions scattered over the face of the globe,
all which required naval protection for their defence. In
considerine, however, what should be the application of the
funds which parliament might place at the disposal of the
government for naval purposes, it seemed to him that, be-
tween the provi ing of a large number of men, and the
providing of what might be called the materials of oefence,
preference should be given in ordinary tines, to the latter
over the former of those demands. In periods when there
was no immediate danger, if the amount of our shipping and
the state of our dockyards and stores was not such as it
ought to be, it was a more wise and prudent application of
the funds at the d sposal of government to apply them in
building ships, in organising dockyards, and in filling them
with stores, rather than in having a greater number of
men actually employed. And the reason was obvious.
We were not et all the more secure next year in consequence
of having had a greater number of sailors employed this
year ; but we were mote secure next year if ie the present
year we increased the number of our ships, and placed
our dockyards and stores in a better and more efficient
condition. That was the prii cie le on e hick the late Govern-
ment ha l acted. Last year, when the war with Russia was
over, there was a great item md, not only in that house, but
throughout the country, for the cessatioe of the war income
tax. That render() iit necessary for the Government to re-
duce the a.oount applicable to the war services ; and Sir.
Charles Wood had properly judged that it was better to re-
duce the number of men actually employed, and to go on
with those other applications of public money to which he
had alluded. Therefore, when they were told that it was an
unwise and imprudent act to reduce the number of men last
year, he said that it was the inevitable result of Government
acting in deference to the opinion of Parliament and of the
country. It had been said that a prime minister ough • to
come down to that house and say that he required a certain
amount of money to be given for naval purposes It was all
very well for a minister to hold hat lan_ uage ; but when it
was the opinion of Parliament and the country that certain
taxes should cease, it was vain for Government to urge their
continuance, fur no satisfactory result would be attained.
On the contrary, it was the duty of a Government to submit
to the opinion of Parliament and the country, ...IA make the
most prudent application of the :monies placed at their dis-
posal. Applying that principle to the course tdo present Go-
vernment was about to adopt, he confessed he thou ;IA that
that course was not the wisest and most prudent for the is te-
restsof the country, They were right in saying that there ought
to be a Channel fleet, and that there ought to be the number of
men whirls they proposed. But the proposed reductions in
the amount of ship building, of stores to be provided, and
of improvements and ulargements in the dockyards,
were imprudeut reductions. He could not conceive that
there could be any financial necessity for those reductions ;
because it was impossible to imagine, when the Chancellor
of the Exchequer produced his budget, that that difference
in the . xpencliture could make any material difference in the
means by which ho might provide fur the supplies of the
year. The lest speaker Lad said that the building of line-of-
battle ships was an antiquated prejudice. But until other
nations had abandoned that prejudice, it could not be called
antiquated ; and it would be very imprudent in this country
to act on another principle, and not provide an adequate sup-
ply of line-of-battle ships when France and Russia were
strengthening their fleet with ships of that descriotioa rhe
noble lord s ,id he was informed by naval officers in France
that they considered line-of-battle shies useless, and that it
was much better to have smaller vessels. He was not sure
that opinions coning from the naval service of other coun-
tries were exactly the opinions by which the government of
the country ought to be guided. (Hear, and laughter.) Per-
haps, if the noble lord had had to advise the French Admi-
ralty, he might have said,—" Your government ought not to
increase your line-of-battlo ships; gunboats are the things
you want. Our government may pursue a different course,
but it is better for you to have few line-of-battle ships, or
none at all." (Laughter.) As long as other naval powers
employed an increasing t umber oe line-of-battle ships, it
was essential that we should provide ourselves with ships
of that description. It might be quite true, as he stated,
that though great improvements had been made of late
years in the construction of ships, greater still remained to
be made, more especially in the points to which he ad-
verted, the construction of the-pro .vs of ships and those lines
which would best cut the wat T. (Hear, hear.) No doub:,
those improvements might be made ; but he hoped the Go-
vernment would not be led away, even by the opinion of the
noble lord, to discontinue the provision of line-of-battle ships
adequate to cope with those provided by other nations.
They knew that the French Government were taking measures
which in a few years would give them a fleet of screw line-of-
battle ships very little in crier "to those we should have at the
same time --(hear, hear)—also that the Rus-ian Government
were constructing as fast as they could a formidable number
of line-of-battle ships. It would be extremely imprudent in
this country to lay aside the idea of augmenting the very in-
adequate Dumber of line-of-battle ships which we now had.
The application of the pr 'polling screw as the moving power
had rendered it necessary to rebuild in a manner the whole
fleet of this cou, try ; and the expense of rebuitding a screw
ship of war, as well as of working it, was much more than
that which attached to sailing vessels He therefore hoped
that the Government would reconsider the course which they
i Oended to pursue. The First Lord had stated that if it
were found in the course of the session that tool. money was
required for these purposes, he would come down to Par-
liament with a supplementary estimate. But when the
Chancellor of the 'Exchequer had submitted his budget, and
made his financial arrangements, it would be exceedingly in-
convenient if, at a later period of the session, any department
should co use down to Parliament with au stimate for services
which had not been provided for by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. It ev..s well known to those w:to had attended to
the matter, that our dockyards were inconveniently small.
Cherbourg alone was as large as many of' our dockyar 'a taken
bogether. (llear. The increased length of ships eemsequent
upon the application of the ;c: ew, had been such tout very
few of our dockyards would hold the large Lne- f-battle ships
that were built. It wes, therefore, very nice sary to increase
their size. We required factories for steam machinery,
cause the machinery by which the screw was driven wee liable
to perp tual accidents, and unless we had the means of re-
pairing losses, and supplying new ships with steam machinery,
it was in vain to build the ships. The right hoe gentleman
had stated that ships were of no use without men. That was
perfectly true ; but men were of no use without ships —(hear)
—although mete could be procured in a much shorter time
than that in which it was possible to build ships. The most
pressing and urgent application of funds to the naval -ervice
must be iu providing those things which, when once provide
remained, rathei than in employing men, who after the year
was over did not add to our strength unless the same nember
were again voted. There was a power to take laud by jury
assesseaent for the purposes of military defences, but there
was no such power for land taken for dockyards ; and if they
gave up the purchases that had been made, at a future time
they might n -t be able to have them at all, or only at a very
enhanced price. He therefore considered that ;he Government
had taken an injudicious course in the reductions they had
made on these estimates ; they would bett r consult the inte-
rests of the country by proposing them in their original form.
Sir JAMES ELPHINSTONE thought the principle of
steam propulsion of ships of war at present in its infancy.
He had observed that up to a certain point of speed they
could supply the propulsion at a comp ratively small cost ;
but to gain a single knot of increased speed would necessi-
tate an increase of double the expenditure, This was a sub-
ject, therefore, that required doe° inquiry. He considered
the gunboats were a complete failure, as they would neither
sail nor steam. They ought to have been mort trboats. If
they had been properly constructed they migh, have been
now employed on the coast of Africa.
Sir J. PAKINGTON had only a few words to say in reply.
It was with sincere pleasure lie had listened to the observe.-
tions of the noble lord the en mber for Sandwich, and being
aware of the high standing of the noble lord in his profession,
lie would give th utmost weight to all his suggestions. The
I noble lord complained that the Diadem c ,ulcl only carry four
days' coal. He believed she could carry six ..ays' coal, but
ho must remind the noble lord it aas not desirable that these
vessels should proceed at full power The screw was intended
to be only auxiliary except on pressing emergencies. Then
the noble lord said they ought not to go on building line-of-
battle ships He could not agree with him in the . opinion.
As long as line-of-battle ships of great s.eam power were built
by other n :tions, i would not be wise in England to aban-
don them altogether. (Hear. hear.) The wisest coarse was
to build as many as wore suffi.Seet for their owe( protection,
but not to enter into a race of competition with other countries.
That would be most unwise. Let us take care of ourselves,
and if we set the example of reduction, he believed that
other nations would follow in the same course. He had not
intended to advert to the qu, stion of the comparative forces
in England and France, and should have been sorry to ay
one word that would give rise to the idea that the Govern-
; met t entertained the slightest feeling of alarm. They felt
that at this moment, as at ether moments, England ought to
be prepared, and ought to bo adequately protected ; but then
nothing could be more erroneous than to inspire a feeling of
general alarm. Therefore, he confessed he had not deemed
it desirable to enter into the comparison weich the right
hon. baronet opposite had done. As he had chosen to do so,
however, he (Sir J. Pakiugton) was bound to say that the
pie t hon. gentleman's statement was not perfectly correct.
The right hon. gentleman had stet4ei that we possessed but
two line-of-battle ships more than the French, and this was
strictly true if we took the ships that were ac ually built,
and altogether excluded what were called the block-slips.
But although ho quite agreed that those bloclopehips ought to
be superseded as soon as possible by better ones, and that
they were not ships which he could wish to send out to
compete with the nevy of other countries, still we could not
altogether exclude them from our calculations. Out of these
nine block ships, four or five were cert-inly in very good
condition. They did good service during the Russian
war in the Baltic. They Were two-deck ships, of 60
guns each, and he .thought that in a calculation of this
kind it would be decidedly wrong to exclude them ; but they
would bo excluded altogether if it were asserted that we had
only two line-of-battle ships more than the French. Now, if
we did that which we were fully entitled ,o do—namely, in-
clude the ships building as well as the ships afloat, still ex-
cluding the block-ships, the difference between France and
England was much more in our favour than the right hon.
gentleman had stated. But the right hon. gentleman had
fallen into another error. He had also stated that the French
ships were more powerful than ours. It was true that the
aggregate horse-power of the French steamboats was greater
than our own ; but there was another mode of comparison
which was perhaps more conclusive that that. It was to
compare the armam nts of the two fleets ;. and if this wero
done, it would be found that the number o' g ns, and he be-
lieved also the weight of the guns, but undoubtedly the num-
ber of the gnus in the English fleet was very much greater
than that in the French fleet, and far beyond the relative re-
portion in the number of ships. The same held good in re-
spect of the frigates. Our superiority over the French navy
in frigates was still more decided than in line-of-battle ships
(Hear.) He must now be allowed to say a few words with re-
gard to the statement which had fallen from the right hon.
gentleman (Sir C. Wood), and the noble lord the member
for Tiverton, as to the reduction proposed to be made in
vote 8. The noble lord had made use of the expression that
the Government were about to suspend—to put an end to—
the building of ships ' • and the right hon. gentleman had held
very much the same language. Now, that was a perfectly
ereoneons view of the propos ds made by her Majesty's Go-
vernment. They had no such intention. On the contrary,
their proposals would, for the next six months, carry on the
dockyard establishments upon precisely the ame footing
that they had been Placed by the late government. The only
difference ve • s, that the present government proposed to effect
that object by continuing the same penile cut establishments
and taking 50.0001. for expend ture in hired labour, not in
task and job-work. The right hon. gentleman seemed to
think that it was intend dto spend the money in task and
job-work. Nut at all. It was proposed to spend it iu hired
labour, Why, what was the course which the right hon, gen-
tleman himself had adopted? When We were in the hoightp f

ries." The men ought to feel that their ship was their home, the Russian war in 1855, 1856, 1857, the late government did
The men and officer in the navy should he like the men and not come down with a proposal of 12.000 men for the dock-
officers in a regiment. He was of opini.in that ,t wou d be i yards ; on the contrary, they conten. ed themselves with the
wi eto introduce the competitive system into the navy with I very same establish ent wnich t ey now proposed. How did
rega d to cadets, they make up the diffe euce ? By hired lab ur. That was the

resource to - which the right hon. gentleman himse.f had
turned ; and it was the res urce to w .ich the present govern-
ment proposed to turn, i n order to meet an accidental pres-
sure. If it proved to be an accidental pressure, they would be
justified in the course they had adopted ; if it did not then
they would be free to take the course which he had indicated
of coming down to Parliament later in the session and asking
for an increase of the vote. He hoped• and believed there
would be no such necessity ; but if.the necessity did arise, he
did not think it would be for the noble lord to object to it,
considering that it was the c ur e which his own go-
vernment had taken last year, when they were obliged to
come down at the end of the session and apply to Parliament
for an additi.mal grant of 310 men, (Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to the question of steam machinery, he utterly denied
that the Government were open to the slightest charge of
neglecting our national def aces He had not proposed any
reductions without first making the most careful inquiries,
and really ascertaining that i he 50,000/. was not required for
the efficiency of the service; that the grant he proposed to
take would be enough to cover all necessary expenditure, pro.
vide all the engines for the ships about to be launched, and
still leave a margin—(hear, hear) —and he thought he should
no be justified in asking Parliament for more money then
the necessity required. (Hear, hear) The only point that
remained to bo noticed was the extension of the dockyards.
The item of 15,00 for the purchase of land for naval bar-
racks at Gosport, he thought, might be postponed, seeing
that the Government had already a qu •atity of laud there
whic , had not yet be n made any use of. The noble lord
was well aware that the state of the public finances was not
such as to justify him in asking other than necessary votes.
These votes he did not consider to be necessary at present,
and therefore he had only done his duty in pos poning them.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir CHARLES W- )OD, in explanation, said that the state-
ment which ho ha .l made iu reference to the " block " ships
in the service was, that although not as efficient ys the line of
battle shies, they were still perfectly good and serviceable
ships. He held in his baud a statement prepared for him,
showing that the number of ships afloat of screw line of
b ittle ships were 25 for England, and 23 for France ; and
that the number of ships of the line afloat were for England
42 and for France 10.
Mr. HORSHAM said the right hon. baronet the First Lord
of t' .-e Admiralty began his statement that evening by saying
that he adopted the statements of the late Government ; and
he (Mr. Horsman) confessed he was glad the house bad, in
some respects, heard so encouraging a statement from the
right hon. baronet. It was, however, a serious reflection,
when they were told that, n itwithatanding their boasted.
pride of hiving the largest navy in the world, they yet bad
not the command of the sea.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had
been made to France, and ho hoped that the existing Go-
vernment of that country would long continue ; but whether
it continue or not, it was necessary that the naval power of
this co intry should be in a condition, as the right hon baronet
had said, to be prepared for any emergency —(Hear, hear )
They knew that in the days of the French Republic, a
French admiral had asked for a fleet that he might invade
England. They were now in France making the: greatest
naval progress and preparations; and they c add not forget
in this country that Napoleon the First had said he would not
ask more than forty-eight hours command of the fleet in the
Channel. He (Mr. Horsman) did not say that that was
cause for alarm, but he must say that it ought to operate as a
suggestion for precautions on the part of her Majesty's Go-
vernment, and he begged to add that there w e much in the
statement of the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the
Admiralty that night, of which he entirely approved,
Mr. KINNAIRD agreed in the necessity of being prop'red
bet there was one item in the v tee to which he thought the
attention of the Committee ought to be directed, and that
was the halt-pay list. That list hung as a dead weight upon
the resources of the nation, and some means ought, in his
opinion, to be devised to place it on a more satisfactory footing
in rel tion to the resources and interests of the country.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the right lion, baronet the First Lord
of the Admiralty had thrown r dicule upon the statements
made by him that evening ; but he was prepared to substan-
tiate all that he had expressed on the slit ject.
The question was then put, and the vote for 59,350 men
was agreed to.
A sum of 1,401,5991 towards completing the charges
necessary for defraying the wages to seamen was next
agreed to
577,3671. for completing the charges necessary for the
seamen and marines, was, after a few words from Mr. WIL-
LIAMS, also agreed to; as was also a sum of 70,439:. for
completing the sum necess try for the payment of officers.
The CH AIRMAN, on the suggestion of Mr. WYKEHAM
MARTIN, o tained leave to report progress, and to sit again.
The House resumed
THE BUDGET.
In reply to Lord PALMERSTON,
Mr DISRAELI said it was the intention of the Government
to proceed with the navy estimates on Friday, and, if possible
they would also proceed with the army estimates the same
evening ; but at all events the budget wou.d be brought on
on Monday.
THE CUSTOM'S DUTIES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
OATHS BILL.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL this bill was
read a third time.
CASHEL ELECTION.
Ca the motion of Mr. BAGWELL, the adjourned debate
on this subject was ordered to be discharged.
THE LOAN SOCIETIES BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
Mr. HENLEY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to effect an
exchange between the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital
and the Governor and Company of Chelsea Waterworks, of
lands in the parishes of St. iieorge's, Hanover-square, and
St. Margaret's, Westminster.
The bill was read a first time.
The House then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.

PAhLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-APRIL 12.
SUPPLY.

Order for Committee read ; motion made, and question
proposed, "That the Speaker do now leave the chair"
Amendment proposed, to leave oat the word " That" to
the end of the question, in order to aid the words " the
army and navy estimates be referred to a select commit-
tee," instead the►eof : Question put, " That the words
proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The
house divided—Ayes, 161; Noes, 24.

Adderley, C. B.
Baillie, 11.
Ball, E
Baring, A.
Baring, T.
Baring, T. G.
Bernard, T.
Beaumont, W.
Beecroit, G.
Bennet, Capt. P.
Kentinck, G.
Black, Adam
Bonham-Carter, J.
Bovill, W.
Bramley- Moore, J.
Brand, H. B. W.
Bridges, Sir B.
brown, W.
Bruce, sjor
Buckley, Gen.
Byng, G. H. C.
Caird, J.
Campbell, R.
Carden, Sir K. W.
Cartwright, H.
Javendish, W.
Clai k, J.
Close, M.
Cobbuld, J.O
Coarington, Gen.
Collins, T•
Conyngham, Lord F.
Corry, H. C. L.
Crauturd, E. IL J.
Dalglish, B.
Davie, sir IL R. F.
Dillwyn, L. L.
Disraeli, B.
Lod, J.
Dodson, J.
Drummond, H.
buncombe. A.
Egerton, W.
Etch°, Lord
Ellice, E.
Elpbinstone, Sir J.
Emiyn, Viscount
Estcourt, T.
Ea lug, Crum
Farquhar, Sir M.
Folowee, E.
Fitzgerald, W. R. S.
Fitzgerald, J.
Fitzroy, deny
Forde, Colonel

AXES-161.
Forester, Col. Moffat, G.
Frazer, Sir IV. Mowbray, J. R.
Gard. R. Naas, Lore
Gaskell. J. Napier, Sir C.
Gavin, Major New Port, Viscount
Gifford, Earl of Nisbet, R. P.
Gilpin, Col. H. Packe, C.
Gladstone, W. Paget, Lord C.
Glyn, G. Pakington, Sir J.
Glyn, G. Palmer, R.
Gregory, W. Palmerston, Viscount
Grenfell, C. P. Patten, Col.
Grey, R. Pechell, Sir G.
Griffith, C. Peel, Gen.
Hall, Sir Benjamin Pevensey, Viscount
Hamilton, Lord Claud Proby, G.
Hamilton, U. A. Puiler, Christopher
Hamilton, Capt. Ridley, George
Hankey, T. Robertson, P.
Harcourt, G. G. Russell, Lord J.
Hardcast.e, Joseph Rust, James
Hardy, G. Scholefield, W.
Hay, Lord John Sclater, George
Ray ter, W. Scott, Major
Headlam, T. Shelley, Sir I.
Henley, J. Smith, J. A.
Hodgson' K. Smith, Sir P.
Hoff°, d, R. Spooner, it.
Hope, Alexander Stanhope, J.
foreman, E. Stanley, Lord
Hotham, Lord Stuart, Colonel
Inglis, John stud, 11.
Jervoise, Sir J. Thompson, General
Johnstone, U. 13. Trelawny, Sir J.
Kinglake, A. Vane, Lord H.
Kiunaird, A. Vansittart, W.
Knatchbull, W. Verner, Sir W.
Knatchbull-liaguesien Verney, Sir H.
Knox, Col. B. W. Waddington H.
Lennox, Lord 11. G. Walcott, AdmiraL;
Leslie, C. P. Walpole. S. •
Liddell, H. G. Warre, John
Lindsay, W. Wickham. H.
Lovaine, Lord Williams, S;r W.
Lowe, it. Willoughby, Sir H.
Lygon, Hon. F. Wise, J.
Macarthy, Alex. Wood, Sir C.
Macaulay, Kenneth Woods, Henry
M'Clinteck, John Wynne, J. A.
Malin% Richard Yorke, E.
Mangles, R. 1).
Mangles, C
Manners, Lord J.
Melgund, Lord Jolliffe, Sir W.
Miter, Taverner Whitmore, H.
NOES 2 4.
Harris, J. D.
Ingram, H.
Langton, H. G.
I ocke, John
Morris, D.
Nicoll, D.
O'Donoghoe, The
Pease, Henry
Roebuck, J.

TELLERS.

Bowyer. G.
Brady, J.
Col, W.
Cr,isaley. F.
Daum M.
E wart, J.
"ox W. J.
Gilpin, C.
Gregeon, Samuel

Sheridan, 11. B.
Smith, J. B.
Smith, A.
Sykes, Colonel
Tite, W.
White, James

TELLYIS.
Williams, W.
Kershaw, J.

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