The Sun.
London, England, 1858-06-05 00:00:00

1-f3-5-87---

clearing up the title, theexpenseed which, when the pro- interesting and valuable contents of the British Museum,
porty was divided into small holdings, was as great as the National Gallery, and our other national collections.
value of the hand. He dutnet think it would be wise to add (Hear, hear.)
a branch to the Court of Chancery fin- dealing with this , Sir J. SHELLEY had listened to the speech of the
class Of property, while they had all the machinery for an I Chancellor of the Exchequer with great pleasure, and
independent and an inexpensive tribunal. He should sup- I hoped they would hear no more of removing the National
port the motion for going into committee. I Gallery to Kensington. (Hear, hear.) The trustees of the
Sir E. PERRY believed that the history of the Encum- British Museum were not to blame for the non-opening of
bered Estates Court showed it to be the most successful the institution on Sunday, which was the act of the house
instance of law reform that had been witnessed in modern itself ; but he thought the Museum might be kept open to
times. But the success was attributable to the work being a later hour on week days.
done by the commissioners themselves instead of its being Mr. CO WPER did not think that the artisans of Lon•
deputed to masters and clerks, and to the rule they had don were so hard worked that they could not pay a visit
laid down, that mere matters of form were never to be al- to the British Museum in the course of the six working
lowed to interfere with justice. But instead of this satis- days of the week. They could, at all events, visit it if it
factory court the right hon. gentleman proposed to estab- were open in the evening of those days. It was said that
lish a court of the same rank and position as the Court of if the Museum were lighted up in the evening there would
Chancery—to raise the salaries of the judges—to give them .be great danger of its being destroyed by fire, but careful
clerks anclian expensive establishment—the result of which watching and reservoirs of water would prevent such a
Ihe believed would be to destroy the efficiency of the catastrophe. If the library were not to be opened to the
tribunal, working classes in the evening, the trustees, who had many
Mr. MONSELL expressed his gratitude to the right , duplicate copies which they did not want and desired to
hon. and learned gentleman for introducing this measure, get rid of, ought at least to be empowered to give them to
and he hoped it would be proceeded with as rapidly as mechanics' institutions.
possible. There was nothing he should more deprecate Mr. AYRTON did not wish to enter upon the subject of
than the referring this bill to a select committee, which opening the British Museum on Sundays, as it had been
would be composed principally of lawyers. He thought decided by a large majority that it should not be opened.
the bill so good that it would be most unwise to risk its But ho desired to state that all the inhabitants of the me-
being injured by the alteration which a select committee tropolis would hear with very great satisfaction that we
so composed would be likely to make. The various sugges- were going to get rid of the Kensington-gore establish-
tions which had been made were all matters of detail which ment. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the minds of all
might be well discussed in committee of the whole house. people would be greatly relieved when they heard that the
Col. GREVILLE also thought the right hon. and consideration of that question was to be no longer ember-
learned gentleman was entitled to the thanks of the house raised by the peculiar ideas of some people in relation to
and the country for introducing this measure. The Encum- that Property. But he hoped that the Chancellor of the
bared Estates Court had worked beneficially, and the time Exchequer would take care that he should not be over-
had arrived when the benefit of the parliamentary title reached in the bargain. (A laugh.) He thought the right
should be extended to unencumbered as well as to encum. hon. gentleman would do well before he concluded the
bered estates. The 15th clause was open to objection, be- bargain, to call in some person cognisant of the value of
cause, the court being permanent, he did not see what ob- land in the neighbourhood in questian, in order that the
ject the proprietor could have in obtaining the Parliamen- public might receive fall value before they relinquished
tary title until he wanted to sell his estate. There was their part cf the property. He hoped that care would be
other objections, bat they all referred to points of detail, taken to secure to the public payment not only of theprin-
with which the committee of the whole house on the bill cipal, but of the interest that had accrued. He was glad
would be perfectly competent to deal. that the question of the National Gallery might now be
Mr. WHITESIDE was happy to be able to inform the discussed irrespective of that particular estate. He had no
house that the bad not received a single communication doubt that a desirable site would be easily found in the
from Ireland against the bill. (Hear, hear.) The bill cer- centre of the metropolis for the erection of a National
tainly was the result of the very best consideration which Gallery.
the Government could give to the subject. The power Mr. JACKSON hoped the Government would inform
given to the new court was not to organise the establish- the house distinctly as to the terms on which the partner.
ment of Chancery suits, but to effect the sale of estates. If ship in the Kensington property was to be dissolved.
the house when in committee should object to the clauses Mr. KINNAIRD believed that the land in the theme-
' appointing the conveyancing clerks, he would be quite diate vicinity of the plot of ground in question had this
willing to have the clauses struck out. At the same time, year increased at least three times in value. He trusted
he thought it would turn out that the house would be of that nothing would be done to alter the vote to which the
opinion it would be well to retain them. With regard to house came against the opening of the British Museum on
Mr. Hargraves, he had only to say that a clause would be Sundays, but that it would be opened during some of the
introduced into the bill declaring that should that gentle- other days of the week at such hours as would enable the
man be appointed to any other office under the Crown of working classes to visit it.
greater or as great emolument as the retiring salary allowed The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
to him, that salary would forthwith cease. With respect would be better to refrain from going into details on the
to the ease olMr. Flanagan, of course the Treasury would Kensington property until he introduced a measure upon
adequately provide for the claims of that gentleman. it. (Hear, hear.) He might, however, observe with re-
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD then withdrew his amend- spect to the statement of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Kin-
inept, and the house wont into committee on the bill pro naird) as to the increase in the value of land in the neigh-
forma, for the insertion of certain verbal amendments and bourhood in question, that that increase had taken place
with a view to the bill being reprinted. with regard to land for building purposes ; but the land
The house having resumed, immediately went into com-
purchased by the Royal Commissioners could only be used
mittee of supply. for the original corporation—viz., for the purposes of art.
THE BRITISH MUSEUM. Mr. CON INGHAM submitted that the British Museum
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to move the estimates for the ought to be opened to the working classes five or six days
British Museum. The increase in this year's vote was in the week. The state of the Museum might truly be said
12,8301. The increase was owing to several causes. In the to represent the state of civilisation and mental culture.
first place, the increase of salaries, secondly that the ap- t No one who walked through the thoroughfares of the me•
pointment of a new officer, the keeper of the mineralogies ; tropolis, and saw the frightful monuments of celebrated
and thirdly, to the augmentation in the amount to be men, could help regretting that those who had to decide
voted for the purchase of books. The sum that would upon the erection of those monuments did not take the
henceforth be asked each year for that purpose would be trouble to visit the museum and inspect the wonderful an-
-10,0 ;'Ol. The noble lord concluded by moving the vote of cient monuments there. Had they done so, they could
79,2751. for the purpose of the museum. never have sanctioned such solecisms and deformities as
schwemit eh
hadsom some satisfaction tisfigavcetinon up, thatbe lee
cauhieeahrde
Sir J. TRELAWNY asked whether any steps were were to be seen at Hyde-park-corner and Trafalgar-square.
(Roar, hear.)
the h
Be arro.)
m pltto wasn
being taken to admit the working classes to the museum
on Sundays after divine service ?(Roar,
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the trustees had any was instrumental in preventing the removal of the pictures
power in this respect, or that if they had, they would exer- in the National Gallery beyond the reach of- the inhabi-
cise it to open the museum upon the Sabbath. (Hear.) tants of the metropolis. If the Royal Academy were re-
Sir J. TRELAWNY pressed the justice of throwing moved from Trafalgar-square the National Gallery would
the museum open to the working classes on Sundays. be large enough to contain all those pictures for which there
Mr. GLADSTONE said that the House of Commons, was now no room. We had expended 10,0001. for pictures
not the trustees of the museum, should determine the which we had not room to exhibit. When the estimates
large question of throwing open public buildings on the for the National Gallery came on he would take the sense
Sabbath. (Hear, hear.) of the committee upon that mismanagement.
Sir J. TRELAWNY would take an opportunity of test- Lord ELCHO thought that if any justification were
ing the sense of the House of Commons on this question. needed of the observations which had fallen from him in
Lord ELCHO referred to the want of space at present reference i. the British Museum it was to be found in the
felt in the British Museum for the various collections. speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He might also
Some beautiful specimens of marble had recently arrived be permitted to say that he was extremely glad to hear
from Halicarnassus, and there was no place to put them in. from the right hon. gentleman that there was an end of the
He recommended that the collections of natural history— long•debated question of the site of the National Gallery.
nany of which were duplicated, and in some cases tripli- The vote was then agreed to, as were also one of 26,8374
cated—should be removed from the Museum. Dispersed for new buildings, and one of 5,0001. for purchases.
over the metropolis were several collections of mineral The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the
produce; and it would be a great advantage to systematise
house resumed:
them. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
took a deep interest in the subject, would grapple with it.
Mr. GREGORY fully bore out the complaint of the
noble lord as to the deficiency of space for additions to the
collections.. The hon. gentleman also stated his intention
of pressing on the house the expediency of inaugurating
lectures in the museum for the benefit of the middle class,
Mr. DUFF put in a plea for an augmentation of the
salaries of the second class of officers in the Museum. The
experiment of lecturing by Professor Owen had been at-
tended with distinguished success. These minor officers
were also well qualified to lecture on the various subjects
with which they were daily made familiar.
Sir P. EGERTON expressed a hope that some facilities
might be afforded to the working classes on certain days,
to view the treasures of the Museum.
Mr. TITE was of opinion that the natural history col-
lection might be removed with advantage to the Lirnean
collection. He asked the noble lord the member for Lon-
don whether greater notoriety could not be given to the
various munificent bequests which were constantly being
made to the museum? He thought the question of salaries
ought to be left to the managers of the museum.
sir J. TRELAWNY urged that the museum should be
opened three days in the week, after the working hours of
the artisan, and that on Sundays the working classes
should be admitted to that portion of the picture collec-
tion illustrative of Scripture history.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the-question of opening
the Museum on Sundays was a matter for Parliament to
settle. The Mediaeval collection, perhaps, might be re-
moved with advantage, but others it would not be advan-
tageous to remove. The trustees had considered the pro-
position of throwing the Museum open in the evening, and
had come to the conclusion that by adopting that course
there would be a great danger of fire. In the summer,
however, the hours during which the working classes could
view the Museum had been enlarged.
Mr. J. LOCKE pressed the hardship of depriving the
working classes of the opportunities of visiting these idify-
ing collections on the only day at their unlimited disposal.
Saturday half-holidays were a farce, if the men were
mulcted of their pay on those days. He believed that the
feeling of the house was in favour of opening the Museum
on Sundays, and he hoped they would give practical ex-
pression to it, notwithstanding the counter feeling amongst
certain constituencies.
Mr. GLADSTONE reminded the hon. member that the
house had already expressed an emphatic opinion against
throwing the Museum open on the Sabbath. With regard
to the case of 'the minor officers of the Museum, the fact
was that their salaries had some time ago been augmented.
The question of methodising the various collections was
too large a one to be dealt with in the present discussion.
His own opinion was that ultimately the collections would
have to be separated.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed with
the right hon. gentleman that the time would come —in-
deed, he might say had come—when they must consider
the question of how the public collections of this country
could most effectively be arranged. This was a question
which could no longer be avoided. He was not at all pre-
pared to say that the consideration of the question should
be postponed. Committees and royal commissions had
completely fulfilled their tasks; all the information re-
quired upon the subject was in the possession of the house,
and what was wanted was a determination to avail them-
selves of that information, in order to act upon it. He
felt it was the duty of the Executive Government not to
shrink from the question of the British Museum, as that
would probably be the first establishment that would com-
pel them to come to some solution of the difficulty. It
was in the various, almost the universal, character of that
collection that the difficulties which the house had now to
contend with found their principal origin, and he was
afraid they would not be able to encounter the obstacles in
their path until they simplified the contents of the Mu-
seum. If they maintained the various collections of which
the Museum consisted in a manner to preserve their cha-
racter as first-rate collections, it was impossible that they
could keep them under the same roof. The only condition
under which they could keep them under the same roof
was that they should become separate collections, a con-
clusion which the nation would not readily sanction.
(Hear.) Allusion had been made to the frequent and mu-
nificent efforts which the country had made at intervals
to obtain proper sites. Without space nothing effective
could be done, and it was the want of space that had been
the cause of the scattered position of our collections, and
of our being unable to effect that convenient arrange-
ment which was so necessary for the public accommoda-
tion. A great effort was made six years ago, when
he proposed that the House of Commons should vote
a stun of 180,0001. in aid of a sum of equal amount,
which was the balance left from the receipts obtained at
the Great Exhibition of 1851. With that united sum,
amounting to upwards,. f 300,0001., an extensive portion of
land at Kensington was purchased, with the idea that there
would be an opportunity of our scattered collections find-
ing a home where they might be seen to great advantage
by the public. That site had been held by the Royal Com-
missioners on behalf of the public ; but it was useless to
disguise the fact that the expectations which the house
indulged in when it voted 180,0001. had been entirely dis-
appointed. (Hear) The partnership between the Exhibi-
tion Commissioners and the House, though conceived in a
right spirit, bad not been fruitful of results. Objections
had been raised to the site itself, as being at too great a
distance from the centre of the metropolis ; other causes
had operated in the same direction, and the result had been
that, though a considerable period had elapsed since the
purchase of the Kensington estate, few of the greet objects
contemplated had b en accomplished. Indeed, the only one
had been a temporary museum of science and art, but the
success of that establishment had- not, .as perhaps might
have been expected, induced the public generally to change
their opinion upon the main question. The question now
was, what, under these circumstances, was best to be done ?
He had to state that the Exhibition Commissioners had
made a proposition to the Government which he thought
deserved the attention of the house. It was to dissolve the
partnership which bad been so barren of results. The
Commissioners called upon the Government, in the first
place, to assist them in carrying out the original scheme,
but the Government did not find themselves hi a position
to do so, ead then the commissioners proposed that they
should repay to the country the sum of 180,0001. voted by
the Holies of Commons six years ago, with a moiety of all
rents received during the interval. On the part of the
Government he had assented to that proposition, subject,
of course, to the approval of the House. He believed
they would find it a prudent and advantageous arrange-
ment. (Hear, hear, hear.) The Royal Commissioners
would thus become the sole proprietors of the land
at Kensington, seal would be able to devote it to the
purposes of science and art. There would be an en lof
all those jealousies which hae so long prevailed, and all
intention or power of placing the National Gallery at Ken-
sington would of course be given up. (Hear.) If the house
agreed to that arrangement, which it would soon be his
duty to bring more formally under their notice, they would
then have to consider the question of the National Gallery
without reference to the site at Kensington-gore. (Hear.)
Thus would terminate an old and painful controversy.
(Hear.) He trusted that the discussion which had taken
pl ice would convince the house and the country of the
necessity of encountering difficulties which could no longer
be procrastinated,- and that some satisfactory arrangement
would soon be made for the accommodation of the highly-

SUPPLY REPORT.

Mr. FITZROY brought up the report of the Committee
of Supply.

On the question that the first resolution, granting a sum
of 46,130/. for solicitor.' charges, including Mint prosecu-
tions, be agreed to.

Mr. HAMILTON took occasion to state—several quell.
tions, he said, having been put to him in reference to the
balance of those votes now lying to the credit of the cliff&
rent services in the Exchequor—that, as a member of the
committee upon public moneys, he entirely approved the
suggestions which it had made. It would no doubt be
desirable to carry into effect the recommendations of the
Committee on Public Moneys as soon as possible, but there
were great practical difficulties in the way of doing se.
and more especially in reference to those votes which were
taken not in accordance with the actual sum spent daring
the year. In certain votes that were taken the sum voted
became chargeable for the service for which it was voted.
without any reference to time, so that where there was a
surplus in one year the sum asked for in the next year did
not represent the sum expended. It was not so with the
votes for the army and navy, for the sums voted for those
services were restricted as regarded the time for which
they were voted to one year, and any balance which there
might be was returned to the Exchequer, and before the
recommendation of the committee could be carried into
effect the same system which prevailed with regard to the
navy and army estimates ought to be extended to the
civil service estimates. Another difficulty was that the
civil estimates were voted after the expiration of the
financial year, and therefore it was necessary to provide for
the period between the end of the financial year and the
time when the votes were taken. The hon. gentleman thou
proceeded to show by reference to the estimates, that in
various votes the actual sum required for the service of
the year was not the sum specified in the vote, and con•
eluded his observations by expressing his hope that hie
right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
be able, during the present session, to propose some men'
sure by wbicia some of the proposals of the committee
would be carried into execution. (Hear, hear.)
A conversation ensued, in which Mr. WILSON*, Sir g•
WILLOUGHBY, and Mr. RIDLEY took part, on the eer
gestions of the right hon. gentleman.
On the vote, including a sum for the Law Clerks' Re'
gister-office Edinburgh,
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said that he had given.notiaa of
his intention to move that the vote be recommitted.
Since the decision of the house last night importantpaPerg
ware laid upon the table, and it was essential that theY
should be in the hands of members before the vote vrei
finally determined. He begged to move that.the vote be
re-committed.

Sir J. TRELAWNY moved that the house adjourn.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped that
the hon. baronet would not interfere with the progress O
votes in supply.
Sir J. TRELAWNY did not wish to do so, but be
understood that the salary of the Law Clerk Register wail
open to immense objection, and he wished to stop it.
After a few words from Mr. COWAN and Mr. Wlrr
SON, the amendment was withdrawn, and the resolution
proposed by Mr. Hamilton was agreed to.
The remaining resolutions were also-agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.
This bill was committed pro forma.
OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITIES

ESTATES, &e., BILL. ---
This bill was read a third time and passed.
HAINAULT FOREST (ALLOTMENT OF
COMMONS) BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered, and ordered to be
read a third time.

GENERAL POST-OFFICE (EDINBURGH).
Lord J MANNERS obtained leave to bring in a bill to
empower the commissioners of her Majesty's works, &c., to
acquire property for the erection of a new General Post'
office in Edinburgh.
The house adjourned at half-past one.

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