The Sun.
London, England, 1867-02-19 00:00:00

THE BEFORAI BILL.

Mr. BAINES asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether in the statement which ho had promised to make,
on going into committee on the representation of the
people, on Monday, the 25th instant, he would specify
the proposed amount of the county and borough fran-
chises ; and whether he could, for the convenience of the
house, give that information on an earlier day.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
hoped the hon. gentleman would not think it discourteous
if,he declined to snorer his inquiry. On Monday next he
should be prepared to answer it.
CHARITABLE BEQUESTS (IRELAND).
Mr. BLAKE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether he Intended introilacing a measure during the
present session to amend the laws relating to charitable
donations and bequests in Ireland; and if so, at what
period the bill would be likely to be furnished to mem-
bers ?
Lord NAAS said the Solicitor-General for Ireland would
introduce a bill on that subject next week.

THE FENIA:NS-IRELAND.

In reply to an hon. member,

Lord /sIAAS said he had no further fuformtion to give
on the subject. Ho had within the last few hours received
i.l.eram statinez that everythiux was quiet in Kerry.
(Hear, hoar.) Ho could now state, with respect to the
numbers, that.iu no one instance was there more than 120
to 130. man assembled.

VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE

BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
SUGAR DUTIES.

The report of the committee on tho reduced sugar du-
ties was brought up and agreed to.
_ _

DUTY ON DOGS.
The report of ;the committee on the reduced duties
payable by the owners of dogs was brought up and re-
ceived.
THE REFORM RESOLUTIONS.

On the motion for the house going into Committee of
Supply,
Mr. AYRT ON rose to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether it would be necessary to proceed with the Com-
mittee on the Representation of the People if ho received
sufficient assurances that no obstacle would be interposed
to his proceeding to a committee on his intended bill for
amending the Laws relating to the Representation of the
People ? He said ho believed there was no disposition
whatever on the part of the members of the Opposition to
make any factious opposition to any Reform measure pro-
posed by the Government, but they were truly desirous to
settle the question, and he put to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer whether, on his receiving, an assurance that
no obstacle would be offered to a bill being allowed to go
into committee, he would not bring in a bill at once.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXC lIEQUER—I am will-
ing to accept the assurance of the hen. gentleman that his
observations are made in no unfriendly spirit to the Go-
vernment, and in a similar spirit I respond to them. I can
assure him that he has mistaken the character of the Ad-
ministration if he fancies they have formed an erroneous or
exaggerated idea of their own importance. They are only
anxious to use such influence as they possess to favour the
advancement of good legislation, and the settlement of this
question, if possible, which has so much occupied the
attention of the Parliament and the country. (Hear.) 1
must say with great respect to the hon. gentleman that 1
cannot think we erred in the course we have adopted.
In taking that course wo have been guided by a strict
adherence to Parliamentary precedents and practice, not
from any superstitious veneration for them, but because we
know our precedents embalm the wisdom and reflect the
sagacity of generations. (Hear, hear.) We thought it abso-
lutely necessary to have recourse to procedure by way of
resolutions; and when I addressed the house a week ago,
if I had confined myself to arguments in favour of that
procedure, and had given the reasons which had induced
the Government to adopt that course, I should have
been strictly in order, and nothing more would have been
reqnired of me. But representations were made to me by
hon. gentlemen on both sides of the house to the effect that
it was desirable that the general character of the resolu-
tions should be known, and that the house should under-
stand whether the resolutions expressed general principles
or went into great details. Therefore, I wished frankly to
explain to the house that the resolutions expressed princi-
ples, and I took the opportunity of vindicating in some de-
gree the course pursued. 1 think it impossible to bring
forward resolutions in legislating on the subject of the re-
presentation of the people in Parliament, except in the way
of expressing principles, and I cannot say we have any
cause to regret the course we have pursued. From all that
has happened since I have reason to believe that the pro -
spect of legislation on this subject has been advanced and
facilitated, and nothing has been said or done by the Go-
vernment, notwithstanding the criticisms offered here and
elsewhere, which the Government have cause to regret or
wish to see altered. Therefore, I hope that the Govern-
ment may be allowed to pursue the course they have se-
lected to follow. They will not pursue that course if they
believed it would lead to delay. (Hear.) On the contrary,
I am convinced that, with that candid reception on the
part of the house on which we now rely, the course adopted
by the Government is one calculated to facilitate tho ulti-
mate settlement of the matters in question. (Hoar, hear.)
The resolutions are on the table of the house. It would
be irregular to enter now into a discussion of their charac-
ter ; and as the hon. gentleman has refrained from it
?-
sing them, I ought also to refrain from doing so ; but this
I may say, that the resolutions express principles, end the
Government will put the house in possession of the. appli-
cation of the principles expressed in the resolutions. Even
in adopting those principles the house may think proper
to apply them in a manner different from that proposed
by the Government, but, at the same time, it
would be most unwise in the Government to lose the ad-
vantage of the discussion which would arise on the reso-
lutions; and we believe that, without occasioning delay, the
passing of the resolutions by the house will greatly facili-
tate the progress of the measure we shall have to intro-
duce. 1 trust that the house, considering the difficulty of
managing this question, will put a charitable construction
on the motives of Ministers, and not believe that they have
had recourse to the procedure they have selected in order
merely to amuse the house for a time, with a view to the
ultimate postponement and prOcrastination of the subject.
They have revived to use their utmost mew ix for-

PRICE ld.
STAMPED sd.

warding Ilic sotjemout of the question ; the•y have put
their hands to the plough, and they will net desist from
the work unless arrested in their labours by the house,
(Cheers.)
M. GLADSTONE said—l am preparel to bestcw that

cheritable construction on the motives of the Ceeernment
for which the right hon. gentleman has made nn appeal,
and I think that the best mode of doing so is to avoid all
reference, of whatever kind, with respeet to the motives
of t ho Government. We are here embarked in a common
cause. I think my hon. friend, who- received jest credit
from the right hon. gentleman for the spirit of his observa-
tions, was so far justified in the course he has taken, inas-
much as ho endeavoured to give expression to the feeling
generally entertained in the house that we are placed in a
position of considerable embarrassment. (Hear, hear.) As
I understand the case, there are in the country and in the
House various currents of feeling with respect to the sub-
ject of Parliamentary reform. Some of these currents are
in opposite directions, and tend to neutralize one another.
Some aro desirous of extensive enfranchisement, others
fearful of it. They are opposed to each other; but I ven-
ture to say there is one powerful and prevailing feeling
which, I think, pervades nearly the whole community
united, and which likewise is reflected faithfully and
generally within these walls without reference to political
opinion, and that is a strong and earnest—l might venture
to say an absor bin g and overpowering—desire that we should
now, withinthelimits of this Session, arrive at length at a
legislative settlement of this question. (Cheers.) There being
that desire in the Lease and the country, it follows that what
we wish for iuclu les this important point likewise, that
the question should be settled if possible by those in power.
(Hear.) It is wholly out of the ability and capacity of any
set of men to conduct the deliberations of this house to a
real and satisfactory issue with respect to' the representa-
tion of the people unless tLey be the responsible advisers
of the Crown. As far as- I am individually concerned, I
have expressed my perfect willingness and earnest desire
to do-operate with the Government for an effeoptedstnd,
above all, an early settlement of the question. (Cheers.)
What we aro anxious for is that the Government should
avail themselves of this favourable state of feeling, and
take all steps to conduct to a practical effect this disposi-
tion so generally prevailing in the house. (Hear, hear.)
The Government have presented resolutions on the subject
of Reform, and I for one have stated a perfect willingness=-
suppressing, I am bound to say, my own strong opinion that
such was nut an expedient course—to accede to the mode
adopted by the Government, and to take no objection on
general grounds to the course of proceeding by resolution.
The right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
gave a special reason for that course, stating in effect—for
I do not pretend to quote his words—that had the Govern-
ment submitted their intentions with respect to Reform in
the Shape of a bill, they might have been met, as on a for-
mer occasion, by the invidious selection of some one point
from among the provisions, and thereby their general and
comprehensive scheme might have been by no very legiti-
mate process got rid of in this house. My hon. friend en-
deavoured to convey to the Government the assurance
that there was not the smallest probability of such a pro-
ceeding, and after what has fallen from the right hon.
gentleman as well as from my hon. friend I cannot help
expressing my strong belief in conformity with his. Sir,
of course it would be presumptuous in me were I to under-
take to bind any gentleman in this house, far less any body
of the members of this house, by the expression of at, opi-
nion of my own beyond the limits to which my personal
communications may have extended; but, at the same
time, the circumstances of this cane are so clear, and they
have assumed a character so historical, that I can hardly
think they leave a doubt on the mind of the Government
or the right hon. gentleman for the apprehension ho has
expressed, and which he has stated led him to the conclu-
sion he has announced. The right hon. gentleman ad-
verted on a former evening iu terms of disparagement and
censure to the proceedings of 1859. I am not bound to de-
fend those proceedings further than to say I do not think
they merited the kindof censure bestowed on theta. That,
however, is. immaterial except so far as to guard me as to
whet I have further to say. The proceedings of 1859,
whether prudent or not, would in my opinion have been
perfectly justifiable had they been taken by a Parliament
that had its heart and its mind earnestly set on legislating
for the purpose of Parliamentary Reform. (Hear, hear.)
But now, with the light that experience affords, it is int-
possible to regard the proceedings of 1853 without includ-
ing in our fC\TinV the proceedings of 1860 ; and taking the
operations of those two years as ono operation—taking the
strong and decisive measure adopted in 1859 together with
the lame and unsatisfactory completion of it in 1860 —I am
certain I cannot misrepresent either the public sentiment,
or the general sentiment of this house, or the sentiment of
the powerful party that oeeupiee there benches, when I say
that these proceedings cannot be repeated. (Hear, hear.)
Therefore the reasons assigned by the right hon. gentleman
for the course he has adopted have disappeared; and'un-
doubtediy it would have been to the a matter of groat
gratification had the right hon. gentleman been disposed to
accede to the suggestion offered to him in no unfriendly
manner by the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets.
From what ho has stated I fear he is not disposed to
accede to that suggestion. For my part, whatever
my regret and concern may be, I du not withdraw from
any assurance I have ventured to give. I do not refuse,
for one, to entertain the method of proeodure by resolu-
tions, but I must observe that at the present moment we
are placed iu a peculiar position, especially with reference
to a peculiar point. We are greatly desirous of prompt pro-
ceedings, and another request was addressed to the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer of a much
more limited character than that which proceeded from my
hon. friend the member for the Tower Hamlets; it was
that we might be favoured upon the earliest day—upon a
day earlier than Monday next—with those additional ex-
planations to which the right hon gentleman has referred,
and which he calls the explanations of the Government re-
solutions which are duo to the house. (Hear, hear.) Sir,
I wont so far bring into question the orders of this house
as to make a single observation on the character of the re-
solutions themselves—as to their being general or precise,
as to their being declarations of principle or of practice,
what they may or may not be ; but this I must observe,
that upon the comparatively narrow point raised by the re-
quest I have just referred to we aro in a position, so far as
I know, without precedent. (Hear, hear.) On Monday
last the right hon gentleman gave us an explanation of the
resolutions. The right hon. gentleman most properly re-
cognised the Parliamentary rule that a measure of such a
character cannot be advantageously considered by the
house immediately after the statement of its principles by
the Minister of the Crown. He proceeded in the same
manner as does every Chancellor of the Exchequer upon
the somewhat analogous question of the financial state-
ment of the year. He submits the financial statement,
but he never asks the assent of the house to that state-
ment until a future day; or if for financial reasons the
affirmation is asked of any particular proposition, it is
always considered a mere formal affirmation, and its
merits remain open to further consideration. That prin-
ciple is well established. We thought we had received
the statement of the right hon. gentleman as to the !
!
propositions of the Government on Monday last, and wt,
thought we should be in a position on the 25th to proceed
with their discussion; but we find now—not to-day only,
but
full xi
onaepre,lvainonutsf occasion,explanation
t.he right ong.h
on. Friday—that
gentleman. have t
Illroet
are
the
ooff
tohneeenxrpoilestnear
tfoofnthisat pl ateexhedneal
ttrioeure,
da tot and the
other s es
moietys in
very day on which we are to be invited to
.consider the
resolutions. Therefore, sir, it appears to me that it was
with consistency and propriety that my hon. friend the
member fur Leeds suggested that, as time is admitted to
be of such value in this matter, and as the principle is re-
cognised that the Ministerial explanations of a plan or pro-
hpoosuisteioben iftufrethmisektnibuedrsoungrlettetsollebc
onin
t thee vetopossession
i of
tt ti ee
accederight
to thathon. limitedgentleman and m
wouldaotdte demand,
leearasthav
have been disposed to
and afford
These explanations, it is quite evident, must be
fvteirys
his explanations on an earlier day than Mondayb
So far as v erV
rare—indeed,
rretuitn explanations.d,
edf don't
recollect(Hear. any example of Minister
in submitting resolutions that are to be adopted in com-
mittee of the house—to introduce them, not by one, baby
two statements of the views of the Government. I am
fearful of treading on tender ground, and, therefore, I con- I
fine these remarks simply to matters of fact, patent to us
all; but I own I am hardly so sanguine as to believe that
it will be possible for the houses after receiving the second
statement of the right hon. gentleman, which must neces-
sarily be a statement in enlargement of the first, and which
may possibly be a statement iu modification of the first—
(hear)-1 do Rot at the present moment see how the house
can be in a position to proceed with advantage to adilsseefi
',R-
e judgment on the Resolutions on Monday next., unless
it be the pleasure of the right hon. gentleman to save, I
think, our time and expedite the progress of business by
favouring us at an earlier period with those explanations
which, as he says, still remain due to the house. Sir, I feel
deeply the responsibility which attaches to us all in the
present state of affairs. I hope that I have endeavoured in I
these remarks to confine myself exclusively and rigidly to
what is connected with prompt and effectual progress in
dealing with this question. The observation I point out is
that I fear a farther delay beyond Monday may have to be
encountered, unlees the right lion. gentleman can accede to
the proposition of my hon. friend the member for Leeds;
that those delays, if multiplied, wig become highly unsa-
tisfactory both to the house and to the country. (Hear )
Having said so much, I leave it to the impartial considera-
tion of the right hon. gentleman and the Government
whether they cannot in some way or other meet the desire
—we think not an uureasouable desire—that without any
avoidable loss of time whatever we should find ourselves

brought to deal practically 'with the great
in the subject of the representation of the itA
hoar.)
The House then went into committee Vit. if
votes were agreed to o
£45,000 for the Blacas collection.
.£165,109 Supplementary Civil Service Estimatestieluda
ins £50,000 for the expenses of the Paris Exhibition.
The house then resumed.
Sic S. ISTORTIICOTE'S bill for substituting a Secretary for
the Vice-President of the Board of Trade was read a second
tine.

The resolutions on the -Sugar Duties were agreoa to,
and the report of the resolution on the Dog Duties was
reported.

Ou the izecond reading of the Trades' Unions Bill,
01,pctions were taken to the composition of the COM-.
I.y Mr. WATKIN and Mr. SAMUELEON, the one r~
marking. titai the working man's friends were in a majo-
rity on it, the other complaining that tho working uteu
were not. represonted directly on it.
Mr. GOSCIIEN reiterated his former objeetion to mixing
up an inquiry into a particular outrag) with one into
general question of political economy. He gave reasons
for believing that the eff,et of these traders' unions on the
conimerce and manufactures of the country had been
greatly exaggerated, and doubted whether it was possible
to regulate the relations between musters and men by
direct legislation.

Mr. ROEBUCK narrated the circumstances of the Shef-
field outrages, which bad been the primary cause of this
Commission, and ridiculed Mr. Goschen's fantastic dis-
tinction between an inquiry into a trade outrage and one
into a question of political economy. The point to be in-
quired into was one of fact—Had these Unions been so
conducted as to be injurious to trade ? The masters said
they had, the men declared they could prove a negative,
and the inquiry could not be prosecuted without the powers
contained iu this bill.

Mr. WALPOLE vindicated the impartial constitution of
tho Commission, and, in reply to an objection from Mr.
F. PoweLL, showed how inexpedient it would bo to extend
the range of the inquiry beyond five years, and to offer an
indemnity to the actual perpetrators of the outrages.
Mr. lIADFIELD and Mr. B. ()amass repeated the com-
plaint that no working man had been placed on the Com-
mission; and Lord acuo, from his own information, as-
sured the house that the working :nen wore anxious that
the bill should pass at once.
The bill was then read a second time.
Sir S. NORTIICOTE introduced a bill for regulating
airjurisdiction of the Admiralty Court, and conferring
Admiralty jurisdiction on the County Courts.
Lord IN.IA.S explained the provisions of two bills, which -- -
he asked leave to introduce, for the improvement of the
relations between Landlords and Tenants in Ireland, pre-
facing his explanation by a brief reference to the 25 unsuc-,
cessful attempts which had been made to legislate. The
failure of those attempts he attributed partly to the extreme
character of some of the projects; but he noticed that of late
years the differences of opiuion had narrowed very
considerably, and it was now agreed that .the griev-
ance to bo remedied was the absence of any ma-
chinery fur compensating tenants who had made im-
provements at their own expense if they left or
were expelled from their tenancies before they had
reaped the benefit of them. The chief objection to Mr. C.
Fortescue's bill of last year was not to its principle so much
as to its machinery, and these bills of his would have the
same result in view, while avoiding the complex machinery
which had boon fatal to the success of other measures.
The first bill, relating to tenants' improvements, was
founded on the principle of the Land Improvements Acts
—which, as he showed, had conferred great benefits on
Ireland—that money lent to be expended by the owner on
improvements should be a charge on the land without re-
ference to the title. It would be confined to six kinds of
improvements -main drainage, reclamation of waste lands,
removal of useless tenements, the making of fences and
farm roads, and the erection of farmhouses. The Lord-
Lieutenant would be empowered to appoint a special com-
missioner of Public Works, who would have the assistance
of the staff of the Board of Works, and who would lay
down rules and regulations for carrying out improvements,
.for the repayment of rent charges, Ac.; and any tenant
who desired to make any of the above-mentioned improve-.
wants would have to present a memorial to the special
commissioner, who would inquire into the character of the
improvement, give notice to the Landlord, and, if the im-
provement were sanctioned, would grant the loan, and
give a certificate making.it a charge- on the land. With
regard to tho three last-mentioned classes of improvements •
the landlord would have a right of dissent. No further
grant would be necessary for the present beyond what had
already been sanctioned by Parliament for public works
in Ireland, and there would be about a million avail-
able for the purposes of the bill. For the repayment of
a loan by half-yearly instalments thirty-five years would
be allowed. In case a tenant should find it more ad-
vantageous to span,' his own money on improvements,
by going through the same forms he would be able
to obtain a certificate from the commissioner, which
would make them a charge on the land, an .1 would put
him in the same position as if he had borrowed the money ;
so that if he wished to leave his land he would receive
what ho bad expended in a lamp sum minus the instal-
ments which he would have repaid had he borrowed the
money. The payments from the incoming tenant would
be spread over a certain number of years, calculated on
the whole term of 35 years allowed for repayment. Having
stated that it would be unnecessary to limit the size of the
holdings to which the bill would apply, and explained its
provisions as to fixtures, Lord Naas concluded by express-
ing his strong conviction that, though it might not settle
the question for ever, the bill would meet most of the just
complaints which had been made.

Mr. C. FORTESCUE donbted.whether the proposal to
loud Government money -to tenants at will in Ireland
would meet with approval, and was of opinion that the
machinery of the bill was too complex to be taken advan-
tage of by many of the poor tenants of Ireland.

The O'Donoghue refused to ne,./.* tho bill as a Perrna
nent settlem.... of the question; an opinion which was
shared by Mr. Blake and Sir P. O'Brien.

Dr. Brady, Colonel Grevillo, and Mr. Gregory gave a
qualified approval of the bill, which was defended by the
new Solicitor-General (Mr. Chatterton).
After some observations from Mr. O'Beirne, Mr. Bear-
den, Mr. Murphy, and Sir F. Ileygate, Lord Naas replied
to various objections, and leave was given to bring in the
bill.

Lord NA AS then introduced his second bill to facilitate
the leasing of land by limited owners in Ireland, by
abolishing certain restrictions and technical formalities no
longer deemed necessary. Ile explained that it was almost
identical with Mr. Fortescue's bill of last session, and
its principle was much the same as that of the Montgomery
Act in Scotland.

Mr. AGAR-ELLIS obtained leave to bring in a bill to
enable contracts to be made between landlord and tenant
for the improvement of laud in Ireland.

The other business was disposed of, and the house ad-
journed at half-past 12 o'clock.

HUNGARY.

PEST!!, Feb. 18.
An Imperial Rescript, dated yesterday, was read
I to-day in both Houses of the HungariAn Diet.
The Rescript announces that the Emperor assents
to the demands embodied iu the Diet's addresses of
January 17th last relative to the reorg knisation of
I the army, and has ordered that the question be ad-
journed for Parliamentary treatment. The Rescript
expresses, however, the hope that the Diet will the
more readily lend their support to the paternal in-
tentions of the Emperor in this respect from a con-
sideration of the urgent necessity that exists for
Ming up the gaps in the different regiments and
entirely remodelling the military forces of the coun-
try. The document proceeds as follows :
" The Diet having declared its resolve to make
every effort for the preservation of the empire, to
draw up such propositions on the subject of com-
mon affairs as should not be opposed to the vital
conditions of the monarchy, and lastly to fulfil cer-
tain articles of the laws of 1848, the Emperor's
doubts at once disappeared, and he now
expects
thatesthe
llungarian constitution. His Majesty xpe
Pragmatic
hrroeamgDmi
promised
Diet
dt
iwci liatftsiucaltfidi
Sanction,
the
address,
nt,
deer nag
rlrrayonf
totuahtne t
ihanerdrocambntine
objects
indemnity
as. . .
et
of the
the
Ministry."

The Rescript concludes as follows :--
"The Emperor desires the integrity of Hungary
and will defend her Constitution, but expects that
his people will also defend the Throne, the Crown,
and the Empire."
The Rescript was received by the Diet with en-
thusiasm. A deputation will be appoiuted to con-
vey to the Emperor the thanks of the nation.

Evening.

It is believed that M. .Scentivany will resign the
Vice-Presidency of the Lower Howe, and that be
will be succeeded by M. Somniscb.
The !timbers of the Left are preparing a counter-
scheme for a settlement of common affairs.
This city is everywhere decked with flags in cele-
bration of the restoration of the Hungarian Con-
stitution. A grand procession by torchlight takes
place this evening.
The Government of the Danubian Principalities
has sent a letter to Count Audrassy, congratulating
Lim upon the arrangement with the Austrian Go•
vernment.

CROATIA.
FIUME, Feb. 18.

The municipal authorities of this town have pro-
hibited the popular festivities which were to have
been held here in honour of the reeoneiliation be-
tween Austria and Hungary,

METROPOLITAN RAILWAY.
-A- GOWER-STREET STATION is the nearest to
E. MOSES and SON'S Establishment, New Oxford-
street, corner of tlart-street.