The Sun.
London, England, 1858-07-28 00:00:00

BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
METROPOLIS LOCAL MANAGEMENT ACT

AMENDMENT BILL.

The Earl of DERBY, in moving the second reading
of this bill, said that the bill was of considerable
importance, and as those who were aware of the state
of the river would acknowledge, one of great urgency.
The bill was of that kind that it did not involve the ne-
cessity of entering into a discussion of the various
schemes which had been proposed for the purification of
the river. The first queetion to be considered was as to
the mode of raising the necessary funds for purifying the
Thames. It was said on the one hand that it was unfair
to the metropolis to call on it to bear alone the expense
of this work, and on the other it was contended that it
would be uwair to the community at large that any por-
tion of the expense should be borne by the general pub-
lic. If Government contributed aid from from the public
funds fur this work in the metropolis he did not see bow
they could refuse similar aid to Edinburgh, Dublin, and
other large towns. He believed that works similar to
these which it was intended to apply to the metropolis
had been carried out on a similar scale in Leicester, and
he believed were about being carried out in Glasgow. It
did not seem to him that the work was beyond the re-
sources of a great and wealthy metropolis like London.
If the principle was adopted that the metropolis should
pay for the work, it followed almost as a necessary con-
sequence that the control and direction cf the works
should be entrusted to persons who had the confidence
of the metropolis itself, and as there existed a board
elected by the ratepayers of the metropolis it seemed to
the House of Commons that they should be the persons
to carry out the intentions of Parliament with regard to
the purification of the river. That board since its original
nstitution bad not been very effective or operative,
but it roust be said that the Metropolitan Board of
Works had neither an absolute discretion nor the means
of carrying out the works—they and the Government
authorities holding different opietions as to the best mode
of prece e ling. He thought that it aboard of this kind
was constituted at all it was necessary in the first place
that they should be entrusted with sufficient funds for
effec kg the purposes thiq had to perform, and in the
next place pat, subjest to the responsibility waich they
owed to the ratepayers, they should be int tiered with
as little as possible by any extraneous authority.
It was thought more wise not to encutrilwr the board
wi h any limitation as to where the outfall was to take
place, but to leave the utmost possible latitude to the
board. There could be little doubt he believed, that the
nuisance of the river had been aggravated by the opera-
tions on the sewers for sanitary purposes, which had
taken place last year, Those operations had no doubt
improved the sewers of London, but by collecting all
the filth of the metrop-lis, and pouring it into the river,
the river became a public nuisance. The Board of Works
were by this bill constitw ed the sole authority fer execut-
ing the works for the purification of the river. It was
generally understood, though there was no express provi-
sion to that effect in the bill, that the modus operandi
was to be by means of in' ercepting sewers,. whereby the
sewage MO not to he allowed to fa 1 into the river until it
had undergone the process of deodorisation. It would be
most desirable if the two processes of deodorisation and
of preserving the tertilteing properties of the sewage
could be combined, and theattention of science ought to
be at once directed to this subject, for it seemed an incre-
dible fact, that whilst they were purchasing and import-
kg manures at great expense from distant countries,
they were poisoning and polluting the Thames by throw-
, ing into it vast quantities of manure, the value of which
could hardly be exaggerated. (Hear.) In order to enable
the board to carry out these great works provhion was
made in the bill for raising by a rate of 31. in the pound
on the various districts of the metropolis a sum of
3,000,0001. The bill proposed to a certain extent, to
pledge the credit cf the government, 93 as to enable the
board to borrow, on security of the rates, on more ad-
vantageeus terms than they would otherwise be able to
do. It also provided that the Exchequer Loan Commie-
sioners should be empowered to advance from time to
time, sums of money on security of the rates. These were
the simple provisions of the bill as sent upfront the other
house and they were of such a nature that he apprehended
it would be impossible for their lordships to introduce
any amendetents, because the whole bill was one of a pe-
cuniary character, making pecuniary arrangements for
carrying oat this great work. At the same One he did
not suppose that their lordships would be disposed to
obstruct a work which all admitted to be necessary at
the present moment—a work which would be carried out
through the instrumentality of the Metropolitan Board,
under tie control of popular opinion and the overseeing
of the ratepayers, and. also under the control of the G.-
vernment, in regard to the execution of the works. It
must be admitted that this to a certain extent was an
experiment. But the Board of Works had fully consi-
dered the question for two or three years ; they had the
assistance of very able engineers ; and they expressed
confidence that by the plan which they intended to adopt
they should be enabled to restore the river, at all,
several
years to some portion of that purity which
it
possei"ndterfreeredl
years ago, and which had been so lamentably f
with by the present system of sewage.
He the are
asked their lordshipe to give a second reading to this bill.
The Duke cf NEWCASTLE said that though the bill
did not contain any scheme, it practically adopted one,
by imposing the duty upon the Meero_ pt lita.n.Board, who
bad th it own scheme. Without deternamkg whether
their scheme Cr some other was the best, Le was glad
that anything should be done ; far even a step in the
wrong direction would lead
the expense
better. He
concurred in the propriety of expense being thrown
on the metropolis; but as to the popular principle being
adopted, it was the very minimum of that principle.
The representation of the ratepayers by the Metropolitan
Board was the very minimum of representation, The
members were chosen by vestries, not by the ratepayers;
and there was a second and even a third election, by
which the number was reduced to 43. By this meats
the amount of responsibility to the ratepayers was ex-
tremely sma'l. Having conferred these large power
n the board they would soon find it necessary to alter
the constitution of the body, so as to Lava a proper re-
presentation of the whole metropolis. One great vice
of the present board was its large number. He feared
that a body of forty-three gentlemen would never arrive
at any satisfactory conclusi-n, and that they would con-
tinue to deserve the nick-name they had gained—
"the Board of Words." He regretted that the bill did
not contain some provision empowering the board to ap-
point c)mmittees of six or even three members. the
original bill Government reserved a right of inspection
and control ; but that provision had been removed. He
regretted to find that clauses had been introduced re-
serving ail the rghts of the conservators of the Thames,
thereby giving the sole power over the river to a body
representing a small portion of the metropolis. The
Government had rightly abandoned its own power of
interference, but a control and veto was now given to the
Lord Mayor and Corporation of London. The Lord
Mayor recently stated that be had long prayed that he
might fill that office when Lord Derby was Prime Mi-
nister—(a laugh)—but in the I eig,ht of his piety he could
never have contemplated such extraordinary power,
being couferred'en himself and colleagues. By the pro-
visions of the bill the corporation would have power to,
thwart everything that was done by the Metropolitan
Board. He hoped the Government would reconsider
those clauses.
Lord CRANWORTIT said ea' it would be extreme?'
nriz t to those living down the river that the Legislator,
should, as it were, indicate the point at which the sewage
of London should' be discharg d into the river. The in.
habitants of Erith and other places found the nuisance
suffic'ently great already. There was a clatise to the effect_
that the board should not create a nuisance, but hefeared
that this would not be prevented by-deodorisation.
Earl GRANVILLE was understood to say that the

clauses referred to by Lord Cranworth bad been struck
one of the bill,

DBAFTS ON BANKERS LAW AMENDMENT

• BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second
reading Of thi hill, gave a short summary of its provi-
sions, which are now well known. The act of 1856,
which was thought to have furnished a complete security
as to crossed cheques, had been put to the test at the
latter end of last year, when a cheque was stolen from*
letter and the crossing obliterated. Toe -corn is then de-
cided that the crossing was not a material part of the
cheque ; and thus the intentions of the Legislature were
entirely frustrated. Hence the necessity for the present
measure. The fourth clause had been introduced Lir the
protection of bankers, in cases where there was no trace
of the crossing of a cheque having been obliterated. He
skought this a very reasonable and proper protection, as
the bill imposed additional responsibility on bankers. In
nice cases out of ten cheques got into improper hands
through the ncgliizence of the drawer.
Lord OVERSTONE, who spoke with his back to the
gallery, was understood to express his approval of the
bill. He earnestly hoped that the Government would
not yield to the representations that bad been made to
them azainst the protection which was given to bankers
by the fourth clause of the bill.
After a few words from the Earl-et DONOUSHUORS
and Lord CRANWOBTH, the bill was read a second time.
MILITIA (SERVICE ABROAD) ACT CONTI-
NUANCE BILL.
The Earl of DERBY moved the second reading of this
bill, and briefly stated its object. He referred to the satis-
factery progress of recruiting for the regular army. In
the last ten months not less than 60,000 men bad been
recruited ; and at tLcs present time, notwithstanding the
season, they were recruiting at the rate of 3,000 a
month. As many of these recruits had not attained their
full strength it was not thought desirable to send them
at once on foreign service, where they would be exposed
to vicissitudes of climate ; the bi:l therefore enabled the
War-office to substitute for them some of the more sea-
soned men now in tee militia.
The bill was then read a second tim".
MILITIA ACT (No. 2) CONTINUANCE BILL.
This bill was then read a second time.
CORRUPT PRACTICES PREVENTION ACT
CONTINUANCE BILL.

The Earl of HARDWICKE moved the second read-
ing of the bill. The object, he said, was to give those
who had the franchise the power of enjoying it, by re-
quiring the candidate to convey the elector to the poll,
without making to him any money payment. This had
became a necessity, unless means cuuld have been devised
of bringing polling places to the doors of the voter..
This bill was intendsd to r-rn •ey a crc..,, (2.
,2orzeuct:ng .n tLc.:LiOD, and there was nothing like en-
scuragermnt to corruption in it.

Earl GItANVILLE thought that tie noble earl had
not succeeded in givieg their lordships a very clear ex•
planation of this measure. He wished to make an earnest
appeal to the noble earl at the head of the Government
to reduce this to a mere continuance bill. It was now a
continuance bill, but with one or two amendments, and
one amendment was very important, its object being to
enact that that which had been considered bribery for
many years should no longer be such. Of course the
matter would affect both sides equally, and therefore it
ought to be treated without any party feeling at all.
(Hear, hear.) He well recollected that when a very Mani.
Lr clause was strenuously endeavoured to be introduced
into a measure four or five years ago it was rejected by an
overwhelming majority, and Lords Brougham and
Campbell took an active part in the matter, entirely con-
curring in their views. This matter had been very much
canvassed in the -House of Commons, and it now came
be'ere their lordships on the last day when it was pos-
bible that by th• standing orders it could be read a second
time, so as to be passed this session. He did not wish
to go much into the matter of the amendment, but he
would say that there was no doubt some advantage in
conveying voters to the poll, especially in some consti-
tuencies, though there were, on the other hand, great
di=advantages. He knew that there was a provision
in the bill intended to obviate some of the inconve-
nience by providing that the voter might be offered
the means of c ,nveyarice, but not the money to pay
for it. It was perfectly certain that under this
bill the expenses of elections would be enormously in-
creased, if every voter thought that he had a legal right
to be conveyed to the pall. Feeling that this was a sub-
ject which should be referred to a select committee, and
as a bill was to be introduced by the Government to
deal with the whole question next session, he trusted
that the noble earl would make this a mere continuance

The Earl of DERBY was afraid that he could not
accede to the proposition made to him. His noble friend
was well aware that this matter had occupied the atten-
tion of the House of Commons for a considerable time,
and had been much discussed there. It certainly was
the intention of the Homo Secretary to bring in a much
more extensive measure, embracing the whole question,
and involving points upon which there was much more
difference of opinion than upon this. Toe present bill,
how ever, settled a point of law upan which there had
been fora long time very much doubt, and he believed
there had been conflicting decisions in two courts ; and in
one case the judgment had been reversed by a superior
court. Tnere was considerable difficulty amen the highest
authorities as to whether or not it was legal to carry a voter
to the poll,end it was a question of very consid rable im-
portance. This bill proceeded in the most equitable manner.
Though there might be an increase of expense in some
cases by allowing voter., to be carried to the poll,yet if they
were not allowed to be conveyed there would be a prac-
tical disfranchisement of a large portion of some consti-
,uetc'es. There were many voters who had not the
means to defray the expense of travelling a long distance.
His noble friend said that this would be giving a legal
right to be carried to the poll, but that was not the fact ;
the bill only gave the candidate power, if be saw fit, of
conveyirg the voter to the poll. It would be carrying
the doctrine of bribery a very long way to make that
come within it. He thought that this was a question
which it was desirable should be settled, and he believed
that the House of Commons bad settled it consistently
with equity and round policy, end he did not propose to
at andon the decision to which they had come.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE thought that his noble
friend was quite wrong in calling this a settlement of the
question. (Hear.) Tne Home Secretary, in the House
f Commons, expressly Stated that it was no settlement
at all, and he said more than once that in next session it
was his intention to bring in another bill, and to refer the
subject to a committee. He thought it was impossible
that at this period of the session they could do better
than pass a mere continuance bill. What took place four
of five years ago had been referred to. On that occasion
the matter came before the house a week or tvvo before
the close of the session ; and he felt so strongly in refe-
rence to introducing a similar clause to this that he moved
its omission, arid that motion was carried by a majority
of 34 to 4. There bad been many instances of bribery
through the hiring of conveyances ; and another inconve-
nience from this clause might be, that the candidate who
was in the field first, having a lerbe amount of money,
would hire the whole conveyances existing in the locality
and so prevent b:s opponent getting his voters to the
poll. His noble friend spoke of this as a Satisfactory ad-
justment of the questiou ; but how was it such an adjust:
fluent I It might be an adjustment of the question ia
reference to voters near the polling place ; but how could
they provide conveyance for a voter at a distance__is with-
out having an agent there fir the purpose ftH great
objection if there
to the bill, however, was that would.leggarlisaet
the carrying of voters at all. It
.was true.
might disfranchise some
they might
to the Expense or
would
provision
no t
pu
tau!
• to the poll. 'Was there any harm in
vwoatse rnso wt" shuocwh
trouble of going
d;eranchising those persons ? They eheu!d inculcate on
the voter; he moral duty of exercising his trust by voting..
The Duke of SOMERSET thought it undesirable
that the candidate should pay the expense of carrying
voters] to the poll, and that at all events this matter
snood nc t be ,settled without thefe having been an in-
geirye It was said, on the other hand, that they might
dish at, chile voters, but it would be a still greater evil
to bribe a man to vote by carrying him to the poll. This
system of conveyance would be a great means of bribery.
Men would go on journeys to see their friends when they.
knew that an election was coming cn, and so be brought
back at the expense of the candidate. He hoped Viet
the noble earl would postpone this °lama., and al.ow it to
be considered next year.
Lord EBURY also earnestly entreated the noble earl
to make th s a mere continuance bill. The clause as to
oniveyance of vote r 3 was called a settlement of the goes.
Lion ; but he hoped it never would be set.led in this way.
This way of settling it would lead to great demoralisa-
tion, and there were many constituencies where almost
every voter would apply for a conveyance. He would
Ok the question, why should a candidate be saddled
with the pereonal expenses of the voter? The voter
should pay his own personal expenses, and the remainder
of the expense should be defrayed by the borough or
celerity. If this clause passed many voters would ask for
conveyance who would not before have done so, because
there was a legal right to have conveyance, and every
one of these voters would demoralise themselves.
The bill was then read a second time.
The Earl of DERBY proprsed that the bill should go
into committee t' -morrow (Wednesday).
Alter some discussion, however, it was arranged that
this stage of the measure should be postponed until
Tuvday, with the understanding that the report should
be brought up the same day, and the discussion be pro-
eat ded with immediately.
The Civil Bills, &0., (Ireland) Aet Amendment Bill
was read a second time.

The Judgments (Ireland) Act Amendment Bill 114
read a second time.
The New Writs Bill was read a second time.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter past 9.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY•)
The SPEAKER took the obair at 12 o'clock.

NEW WRITS.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE moved for new wvrai
Devon and North Cheshire, the former Y. Buller,
tees fornt bySo South
dreds by Sir 3. X.
acceptance of the Chiltern Hun
Sir. W. T. Egerton.
The motion was agreed to.
Ind the latter by the appointment to a similar office of
The Lords' amendments to the South Wales Railway
(new railway, &c.) bill and the Vale of Towy Railway
';ill, were considered and agreed to.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Colonel WILSON PATTEN called attention to the
,tarding ordprA of the hrtr:Q t, 11l ::. •.i..v to some ita-
,eee,v.-:meutF, lie adverted particularly to the difficulties
la the way of railway committees, and recommended
,be appointment of five permanent chairmen. He had
had communications with gentlemen bf experience in
the house, and he was happy to say that three moot
,xperienced chairmen bad agreed to serve.
Lord R. CECIL concurred in the view expressed by
Colonel Patten, and considered that the majority of
members were unfit for such committee dutiece A 8 wers.
inpooed upon them. With regard to private bid inn&

evidence was taken, and one witness, Mr. Denison,
the chairman of the Great Northern Railway, recom-
mended that the jurisdiction should be taken away
from the house altogether. It frequently happened that
members of the committee, from ignorance of the man•
ner of conducting investigations in courts of justice,
pursued lines of examination wholly irrelevant, and
they allowed counsel to play all sorts of tricks with
them. Occasionally a member of the committee struck
up a mare's nest, and detained a witness a day and a
half, although the expenses to the parties amounted to
2001. or 3001. a year. Permanent chairmen would have
to sit 50 days in the session, four times a day, and he
• thought it was only just that they should receive com-
pensation for their labours.
Mr. D. GRIFFITHS complained that in these com-
mittees counsel received enormous and unreasonable fees,
and rushed about from one committee to another. He
trusted that that system would receive a check, espe-
cially as the counsel practising before Parliamentary
committees were not required to be so astute, or their
legal talents so perfect, as those who practised in courts
of justice.
Sir D. NORREYS thought that gentlemen degraded
themselves by the centralisation of business in that
house. He believed that much of that business might
be transacted in their various counties, at a very much
smaller expense than was incurred in bringing it to
London.
Col. WILSON PATTEN hoped the day would never
come when members of that house would be paid for
their parliamentary services.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXO HEQUER promised
that the attention of the Government should be called
to the report of the committee appointed for the revision
of tine standing orders.
Colonel PATTEN moved, that this house will not in-
sist on its privileges with regard to any clauses in pri-
vate bills sent down from the House of Lords which re-
fer to tolls and charges for services performed, and are
not in the nature of a tax.
The motion was agreed to.
_ GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.

On the order for the consideration of the Lords Amend-
ments on this bill,
Colonel SYKES moved as an amendment that they
be considered this day three months. The East India
Company had gainel an empire which Alexander the
Great or Augustus Casar might have envied, and
he thought, therefore, it might have been re-
spected by the Government instead of seekingits
extinction. He had been for a long time con-
nected with the company, and he could say that
there had always been a desire to prevent war,
annexation, and extensions, and that what had been
done had been forged upon them by the home Go-
vernment, and they had been obliged to confirm the acts
of the home Government against their better convic-
tions. With those exceptions, there bad not been a
failure in its administrative power. Millions of men and
abundance of stores had been conveyed to India, and he
held that there had not been a single_ failure, and, so
far as he was aware, not a complaint. The directors,
he maintained, had been actuated by the best intentions
to ensure to the people of India their rights, privileges,
and justice. (Rear, hear.) It could not be contended
that the Company was responsible for the Indian mutiny,
which arose from the fact that a certain number of

gallant men preferred death to dishonour, and would
not do that which was opposed to their reli-
gious convictions. That spirit rapidly ran through
the army of Bengal, and speedily made it a mass of
mutiny. The bill crushed a court which enabled the
people to come before the public with their complaints,
and which put an end to party strife in that house on
Indian affairs—strife which he contended bad been a
disgrace to the British character. What was the
present state of India! Everything must succumb
to our arms there, but it was like putting
a man's finger upon a globule of quicksilver.
He thought he had got it under his power, but
only let him look around, and he would see 20
globules starting on every side. That was the exact
state of India at present in reference to our military ope-
rations there. He believed that the present state of this
question was the result of a mistake. Some mendacious

papers had stated that there was a determination on the

part of the public that the authority of 'the company
should be transferred to the Crown. Many members of
that house believed those statements, and hence the
large division which took place on the question. He
might remind the house that there were at that moment
481 petitions before the house in reference to India. Of
these 126 were for the removal of the system of caste,
89 were against idolatry, and 145 were for the extension
of Christianity. So that there were 360 petitions closely
touching the feelings of the people. (Hear, hear.)
He believed that in this movement the natives of India
would come to the conclusion that the Government
was not caring for them, and that the only object they
bad in view was to secure the patronage which would
fail into their hands as a result of this transfer of power.
That would necessarily tend to increase the distrust of
the English Government which so extensively prevailed
in India. The result of all this was that there was in
India at the present time a more dangerous enemy then
the mutineers in India, and that was a want of confi-
dence on the part of the people. He would say, let ttes
missionaries in India parsue their arduous and, he had
no doubt, beneficial labours.. They were doing good,
for they were unsuspected, not being connected, with the
Government. There were 460 of them, of all denomi-
nations, labouring in various parts of the country, to
which they had free access, but if they once had the
official prestige of Government they would be the worst
enemies India ever had. He would say, in conclusion,
that the Government should endeavour to respect the
prejudices of the people of India, as far as they were
reasonable and just, and that they should mark the
transfer of power to the Crown by a discriminating am-
nesty. Unless these things were done, there wool l he no
peace in India, and no safety for our dominions. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. MANGLES defended the civil service of the
East India Company, which he considered had been
treated with undue disrespect in that house. He had been
connected with it for many years, and he could bear
testimony to the fact that it had always been guided
with a view to the benefit of India. (Hear.) He complained
that in a previous debate Mr, Bright had asserted
that the company had laboured from a chronic defi-
ciency, a statement which he most positively denied.
The same hon. gentleman had also asserted that the
land revenue was a most oppressive system of taxation,
but the facts he believed would prove most undeniably
that it was a most moderate system of taxation, and
that it was cheerfully borne. The assessments had been
continually reduced in a manner which was satisfactory
to the people, and without any positive loss of revenue.
The hon. gentleman repeated the conviction he has fre-
quently expressed on former occasions, that, with few
and unimportant exceptions, the late outbreak was a
military rebellion, and he held, as a general rule, that
the remark was perfectly true—" Where no Sepoys, no
insurrection." Reverting to the civil service, be denied
that the men who composed it were overpaid. It was
not to be expected that men would go to India for the
same salaries they would accept amongst their friends
at home. If they offered the men connected with the
civil service in India half the salaries they now had for
work in India, that civil service would be very soon
denuded of its best men. (Hear.) He made an earnest
appeal to the noble lord at the head of the India de-
partment that, in apportioning the rewards for recent
services in India, military success should not be the
Bole claim, and that those men should not be forgotten
who had saved us from military successes by preserving
the peace of their respective districts. (Hear, hear.)
Amongst these he might mention such men as Edwards,
Chamberlain, and Cotton. He hoped that government
would abstain from interference with the religion of the
people of India, and that in this respect the government
would hold the scales equally between all. The Hindoos,
so far from having a dread, had a great respect for the
missionaries, so long as they knew that they were
acting an independent part, and were unconnected
with the Government. (Hear, hear.) He did not believe
that the noble lord the member for Tiverton regretted
that he had ever meddled with the East India Com-
pany, and that if the past could be forgotten,
there were very few members in that house who
would care to revive what had been done in reference
to the new government of India. An eminent writer bad
remarked, that to form a new government for India was
as difficult a task as to build a tree, and he believed those
who bad meddled with Indian matters of late had found
this tree-building a very difficult operation. (Hear.)
Mr. WARREN thought that in the bill a mighty-
stride nad been made on a momentous branch of legis-
lation, and that the highest credit was due to Lord John
Russell for making the whole house a party to legisla-
tion in ilia -respect by proceeding by resolutien, thus
clearing the way from all party considerations, and from
all appearance of faction. (Hear, hear.) He was of opi-
nion that they might now look for a rapid extension of
Christianity in India, but that civilisation, he considered,
should be based on Christian principle, and that all undue
concessions should be withdrawn.
Mr. V. SMITH expressed a hope that the house
would go into the consideration of the Lords' amend-
ments without going into the general question. He
would not, therefore, put the questions ha had proposed
to the noble lord (the President of the Board of Con-
trol), as the noble lord had stated that he (M:r.
Smith) should 'have an opportnnity of making a
statement on the subject on Friday next. The ques-
tions were as follows : Whether the 17,000 men
sent to India since Jenuaey last included any troops re-
quested to be added to the establishment in India by the
directors of the East India Company? Whether he will
state the terms and objects of the commission
into the reorganisation of the Indian a to 2 inquire
WhatA
is the amount borrowed under the Indian Loan
of this session, and whether the amountAct
of allowedw
to be borrowed under the act will cover the expenses
of the current year, or if bills are now
upon India in the usual method ; and, whether any in-
stractione have been sent, or will be sent, to proclaim
ber Majesty's name and authority in India, and to an-
nounce the intentions of the government 53 to non-
interference with the religion of the natives ? The right
hon. gentleman stated briefly the reasons which had in-
duced Lord Palmerston's administration to interfere
with the question of Indian government.
Lord J. RUSSELL, adverting to a remark of Mr.
Mangles, that he did not expect much longer to be a
member, of the house, in anticipation of hie election as a
member of the new Indian Council, expressed his regret
that the members of that body were prohibited from
Bitting in the House or Commons.
General THOMPSON looked upon legislation at
present for India as a csonming madness. It was
like the commander of a vessel changing his to eer dad
in a gale of wind. He had no hesitation in saying that
if a Mahommedan should come to that table to be sworn
be would introduce him, for he believed there was very
little difference between the religions of Mahommedans
land Christians.
Col. SYKES withdrew his amendment, and the house
proceeded to a consideration of the Lords' amendments.
. Upon the addition made by the Lords to clause 27,

" That no such order shall be sent without having been
previously oemmunicated to the Vice-President and one
other member from time to time to be selected by the
Secretary of State,
Lord J. RUSSELL said the amendment in his opinion
did not provide that security which was intended by the
Lords, and he therefore proposed that the following
words be substituted, " That no such order shall be
sent without having been previously communicated to a
committee consisting of the Vice-President and four
other members to be selected from time to time by the
Secretary of State, and the opinion of the committee in
respect to such order shall have been given in writing."
Lord STANLEY said it was no easy task to defend
the amendment made by the Lords, but the same objec-
tion the noble lord took to the amendment applied with
equal force to his proposition. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM was opposed to the Lords' Amend-
ment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
if the noble lord would withdraw his amendment he
would not support that made by the Lords. (Hear,
hear.) He thought the words as they originally stood in
the bill far preferable to either amendment.
Mr. MANGLES approved of the amendment made
by the Peers.
Sir J. COLEBROOKE thought no security would
be given by compelling the Minister to communicate his
despatches to members of a council appointed by himself.
Mr. BOWYER thought the amendment of the noble
lord the member for London was a great improvement
of the Lords' Amendment, although he was of opinion
that the number of the committee as suggested by him
was rather too numerous—three members of the commit.
tee he thought would be sufficient. The amendment,
however, of the noble lord, taken altogether, was a very
useful one, and, in the event of a division, be should give
it his support.
After a few words from Mr. A. MILLS,
Mr. V. SMITH locked upon the amendments as mere
sham. One of the main objects of the bill was to get
rid of the secret committee altogether ; but both
amendments were in fact to reconstruct that secret
committee, He looked upon the proposed committee as
a most cumbrous and inconvenieut hamper upon the
Secretary of State. He thought that either the commit-
tee ought to be open to be whole Council, or else to rely
upon the sole responsibility of the Secretary of State.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN said the object was to have a re-
sponsible Minister to administer Indian affairs. If
the Minister was to be responsible, what need was there
of his having any advice from the Council ? In his
opinion the amendment entirely took away the responsi•
bility of the minister. He hoped the house would not
agree to the amendment.
Mr. WILSON said he believed the amendment of the
Lords would provide a check upon the Minister, and if
that Minister had hitherto been under the necessity of
citisa:tir,, even ccc r.-lemhzr cf. thc, C3ti-c:1, the d,3p:..tch
of Lord Ellenborough would never have been sent out to
India.

Lord PALMERSTON said the foundation of the
measure was, that for the present Government organisa-
tion should be substituted the single responsibility of tl-e
Minister of the Crown ; and the amendment of the
Lords, and the proposition of the noble lord the member
for the City of London, were opposed to that princ'ple.
He greatly objected to its being made compulsory upon
the Minister to communicate his despatches to any par-
ticular person who was not a member of the Cabinet.
Such a proposition was, in effect, shackling the Cabi-
net. He hoped the house would reject the amendment
altogether. (Divide, divide.)
The SPEAKER then put the amendment of Lord John
Russell from the chair, and it was negatived without a
division.
On the question that the amendment made by the
Lords be agreed to,
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the Lords' amendment 3B
Against it
M,jority --68
The amendment was consequently rejected.
The next amendment, by which the Lords sought to
vest the patronage in the Secretary of State in Council,
was opposed by
Sir J. GRAHAM, who said the effect of the alterations
_ _

would be to invest the whole of the Indian patronage
in the Seeretary of State, subject only to a prote-t from
the Council. As the bill went up to the Lords it was
proposed that the patronage should be vested in the Se-
cretary of State, with the concurrence of the majority of
the Council, and he thought they should either restore
the words "with the concurrence of a majority of the
Council," which were struck out in the Lords, or to vest
it entirely in her Majasty.
Lord STANLEY said he could not defend the Lords'
amendment.
The amendment was rejected without a division.
The next amendment of the Lords to the same clause
was objected to on the same ground, and rejected.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
would be convenient if he was now to move the adjourn-
ment of the debate until six o'clock.
The motion was put from the chair and agreed to
INTERNATIONAL PATENT RIGHT BILL.
This ladl passed through c ,minittee.
ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS BY COQ-.
MITTEE BILL.

This bill passed through eprnmittee.
The sitting was then suspended.
The house reQu riled at six o'clock.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
CEIURCFI RATES.

' Sir A. ELTON to move the following resolutions early
next session :—" Ist, That this house, con-idering that
the law cf church rates is productive of frtquent strife
and litigation, and has become a dead letter in an increas-
ing number of parishes, deems it advisable to prohibit
the levying of church rates except for payment of exist-
ing charges on the rates, and to confide the maint, nance
of the fabric of the church to the zeal and liberality of
the cler4y and laity ; 2ad. That in order to afford every
facility for the free exercise of that zeal and libera ity, it
is expedient that i❑ every parish the incumbent and
churchwardens should form a corporation, wi.h power.
n )twithetanding the morttaain laws, to take and to hold
property granted, devised, or bequeathed for the pur-
poses of providing for the maintenance of the parish
church, and to administer the monies thenca arising, as
well as all funds annually contributed, for defraying,
church expenses. 3rdly. Twat the authority of the pre-
sent vestry in every parish, with reference to the parish
church, should be transferred to anew vestry to be named
the church vestry,' on consent of parishioners ordinarily
worshipping in the parish church and usually contribut-
'ag towards defraying the coat of the repairs, the present
vestry retaining its authority in secular affaiv. 4thly.
Tbat churchwardens should be chosen exclusively
from the members of the church vestry, and should cease
to be overseers. stbly. That all deeds for giving effect
to the purposes of these resolutions should be free from
stamp duty."
Mr. C. BUTLER, on the part of Mr. Alcnck, gave
notice of his intention, early next session, to introduce
a measura for the commutation of church rates.
PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE.

Mr. WILSON gave notice that early next session he
should move for a select commitree to inquire into the
state of the funded and unfunded debt, and the public
income and expenditure, with a view to the adoption of
a system of di,charging in time of peace obligations con.,
tracted in time of war.