The Sun.
London, England, 1858-02-12 00:00:00

Supposing, however, they were to have an inquiry, he con-
sidered they ha i a sufficient organisation in inspectors for
the purpose without the appointment of a commission that
would entail an immense expense. Allusion had been made
to the Poor-law Commissions, and he would remind the house
that it cost the country 50,0001.—a smaller sum than such a
roving commission as this would cost. The present inspectors,
he thought, might give them all the information they needed.
They were a large body needlessly multiplied from every sect
of religion, having its inspector in every locality, and much
of the time was occupied in writing vicious reports, three-
fourths of the contents being essays on theories of education,
and each vieing with the other in producing the best compo-
sition, which often leads them to make the most ridiculous
propositions. Ho thought they relied in that house too much
on statistics. Ho was much avenge to them, for they wore
will-o'-the-wisps flitting about a question to deceive. He con-
sidered the best thing the house could do was to extend the
present system, which must be considered au advance in na-
tional education. The system was no doubt started too high,
but that defect had been seen, and was now being remedied.
He hoped the house would not grant the commission without
a division, and in the event of its being granted they should
be instructed to examine into the middle-class schools. (Hear,
hear.) Ho thought there it would be found to be a mass of
endowments belonging to them misapplied, and ho instanced
the case of a person receiving 1001. to 2001. with a pupil.
(Hear.)
Mr. COWPER said he had no wish to impede the spread
•f information, or to stand in the way of procuring all the in-
formation passible ; but there was something in the terms of
the motion that made it difficult to accede to it. An inquiry
into the half-time system, and many other branches, was very
desirable : but he did not think the inspectors could be em-
ployed in obtaining the required information, for there were
no superabundant inspectors, but, in fact, they were over-
worked. The schools under inspection were fairly represented
in the reports before Parliament; but there was no means of
giving the information required relative to middle-class
schools. The present system was sufficient for its objects,
and he thought it was not desirable to enter into a
consideration of any others, as the terms of the motion
implied. It was a system that hid grown and entwined itself
into the habits, feelings, and dispositions of the people, and
whatever i:s defects it was well fitted for the English people.
By the terms of this motion the commission would be bound
to hear all parties who wished to give evidence in favour of
the German system or other continental systems, as well as on
special denominational and secular systems. (Hear.) It was
not t sat the house wanted to inquire into, but how tho pre-
sent system could be more extended and more used, an object
which he thought the motion would fail to accomplish. Could
the terms of the resolution be confined to that, much of the
objection to it would be removed, because he thought, how-
ever expensive the commission might be, the house would not
refuse to grant the necessary funds on a subject of so much
magnitude and vital interest to the nation. (Hear, hear.)
Much valuable information might be obtained from various
societies, but the only complete information as regarded the
numbers, die, at school, could only bo got by a census, for
which they had only three years to wait. One of the greatest
evils was the early age at which children left school, their
irregular attendance, and the indifference of parents to con-
tinue their children at school, but he believed we were not
worse in that respect than France. The demand for child
labour was so pressing and urgent that he despaired of being
able to produce a measure by which the children of working
classes might be kept to school, except of a compulsory cha-
racter, which in all probability that house would not sanction.
(Hear, hog.) The education of the working classes ought not
to finish with elementary schools. They were useful in lay-
ing the foundation of an education that should be continued
in after years by attending night schools. The Privy Coun-
cil was giving assistance in that manner, and it had met
with considerable success, especially in Loudon. Two con-
ditions, however, were necessary to be observed—viz., care-
ful classification of students, and instruction such as those
frequenting the schools desired. That was being
followed with success at King's College, where
the students selected their topics of education, and it was
remarkable that those least expected were chosen, such as
French and Latin. (Hear) With regard to school accom-
modation they had more than was made use of. They had
school accommodation for 870,000, but there wore only
570,000 children attending the
schools. The Privy Council
felt that the progress of education was consistent with the
permanent grants made by that house. By the returns made
to the National Society, it appeared that though the schools
diminished, the scholars increased, showing that the schools
kept by inefficient persons were giving way to larger and bet-
ter conducted ones He defended the house from the charge
of indifference to the subject made by the right hon. baronet,
and said that he thought there was less indifference on the
part of the religious bodies and the Government than amongst
the great bulk of the holders of property and the middle
classes. He was opposed to the imposition of a rate as likely
to retard rather than advance education. He suggested that
the rightlhon, baronet should amend his resolution so as to
omit the part with reference to considering a change of the
present system.
Mr. HENLEY said he concurred in the remark of the right
hon. gentleman, and regretted that a similar appeal he had
made to the right hon. baronet had been unsuccessful.
Anther point was this. They all knew that in this metro-
polis there were a vast number of children who neither went
to school nor to work, and these were the children to whom
attention ought in the first instance to be directed. Those
who went to school at all were of course in a much happier
situation than those who never wont to school at all. Now,
what was the likeliest mode of getting at those children! Ho
believed that a commission was not the right method, but
that humbler methods should be adopted. It was very diffi-
cult toget behind the scenes in those cases, and almost impos-
sible to get at the seasons why their parents did not avail
themselves of the advantages offered to them. He thought
that those zealous men who were employed by the home mis-
sionary societies would be more likely to achieve that object
than any commissioners, however able they might be.
He should be very glad if his right honourable friend (Sir J.
Pakington) could agree with the Government in a scheme.
for he believed that a mere general scheme must result in
mere secular teaching. It had been so in America, and it
would be so here. He could not help seeing many things
going on which should make the friends of religions educa-
tion very cautious. He did not mean that doctrinal teach-
ing should be given at mere specified hours. If the friends of
religious education allowed themselves to be driven into t e
corner they would give up their case. The master should be
an intelligent earnest man, who would take every o eportunity
of turning his teaching to advantage. If children lied or
stole, as children would do, he should tell them that those
vices were contrary to the commands of God, and if they
were ill-natured, he should remind them that they should be
kindly-affectioued one to another, for that was the command
of Christ. If a man was directed to teach no religion, he
would tell a child who stole that he must steal no more for
fear of the big policeman, and that would be the basis of his
morality. (Hear.) These were reasons why he was afraid
of any of these general schemes, and why he would rather
dove op those systems which were in force, and which were
tending to great good. He hoped
,the right hon, baronet
(Sir J. Pakington) would consent to limit his scheme in the
way the right hon. gentlemen (Mr. Cowper) had suggested.
Lord J. RUSSELL had hoped that the way in which the
right honourable baronet had introduced his scheme would
have secured for it general consent. He would remark that
propounded for extending education. When his scheme every possible objec-
tion opposition was a renewal of the opposition that had been.
oLffoerrde d
Broughamto every
proposal
tion was made to it, and it was alleged that his intention was
to rob children of ail religious instruction. When lie (Lord J.
Russell) and the Marquis of Lansdowne proposed a scheme se-
curing grants from the Committee of Privy Council, strong
opposition was offered to it, and they Were Only enabled to
carry it by a majority of two. (Hear.) But he now found an
honourable gentleman on the opposite side, who spoke at the
beginning of the present debate, acknowledging how good
duly these
ofminutes
Conservatives
of council
not disturb
the lot of massy who made these attempts to advance educe-
were
and
urging
them. (Hear.) It was that it was the
tion to be violently opposed, and to find soon after that the
schemes they had successfully established had become part of
the institutions of the country, and all parties urged that it
was the duty of Parliament to adhere to what had worked
so efficiently. (Hear.) Then again the minutes of 1846 met
with very great eppositien throughout the country, and a
vast number of petitions were presented again'; them. The
last change that was made, was made by himself and the
right hon. gentleman the member fir the University of Ox-
ford (Mr. Gladstone) who was then Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, sanctioning capitation grants. That was opposed,
not so much on account of a dislike to the principle as because
the scheare was not carried to the extent necessary to pro-
mote the cause of education. He might remark, as the
fuundatiou of the motion of the right hon. baronet, that the
hon. member for Staffordshire had entirely mistaken the
present system. The hon. gentleman seemed to think that
inspectors were persons who inspected the whole education
of the country, and thee they had only to be gagged to make
them report on the state of education all over England. Now
the inspectors could make uo such inquiry. What the com-
mittee of council had to do was, to assist in the erection and
afterwards in the maintenance of schools where persons were
willing to contribute ; but supposing there were thirty or
forty villages lying together where no application was made,
those inspectors must remain in entire ignorance 01 that part
of the country, and could give no detailed report. To this
might be added, that the whole time of the inspectors was
employed in visiting the schools they were desired to
report upon, and ascertaining what was the amount
of education over_ which they had superintendence.
There were about 570,000 children who were re-
ceiving education in this way. They were told by
Mr. Horace Mann, is his last report, that there were only
570,000 out of the two millions to whom his reports refer who
were receiving instruction, and, besides these, Mr. Mann re-
ported that there were one million who were at work, and
who dal not go to school at all, He made allowance for other
chil leen who were out pocket-picking and thieving, and who
could not bo expected to attend school while thus engaged.
(Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Henley) had
said that children would lie and steal, and that they should
be taught not to steal, because such practices were contrary
to the law of God, He euito agreed with the right hon. gen-
tleman ; but why, if that was to be taught in school, should
not other children who were running about the streets and
did not go to school— why were they not to be taught the
sane lesson ? (Hear.) If gentlemen denied that it was of
no advantage to impart a moral and secular instruction, there
was an end of the whole case. There were four or five trillions
of these children, and the present system extended to
570,000. It was proposed to assist by grants the means of
those who were willing to build schools, but they could hardly
fled sulfa& nt means for that purpose, It was hoped that the
establishment of these schools would lead by example to the
establishment of ether schools, arid that thus the system
would spread. It was es
much'in the nature of an experi-
ment, and it was to be seen whether that extension of educa-
tion took 1
Pelee rapidly and generally, or whether it was a
slow process. The system had now been in operation 18
years, and though he must say it had been very successful
with regard to those who were actually under education, it
had not spread so rapidly or so extensively as could have been
wished. Let him ask hem what was to be done. They were
not making any great progress, for if any one would look to
the increase of the ,grants, it would be found that that 70,000
which had been added to the 500,000, received in proportion
a far larger amount of grants than the latter number. He
could see many
ways in which education might be bene-
ficially extended. He believed that in many cases the clergy
and ministers of various dissenting sects would be willing to
ask their congregations to contribute to a certain extent, not
complying with all the conditions of the Committee of Privy
Council, but still making better schools than at present
existed. Would not that bo advantageous ? (Hear, hear.)
They were improving the quality of education, but they must
not lose sight of the quantity, and in places were no progress
had been made might they not inquire whether by giants
they might not extend the present system? Ho had heardf
many men of practical knowledge urge this point, one
them a bishop. That right reverend prolate point°d out
to
him there were whole districts in his diocese where there we
re
no schools of any value whatever, and ho had othershoarddiothese
say, who had great practical experience, that when
parishes there were well• conducted schools, the grants of
the
Council
Committee of Privy
were sufficient ; but that they.
might go for Mile§ Around gucl net find a tolerable school,