The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-11 00:00:00

TILE

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standing rest upon a narrow ground. Ou the contrary,
it was stated and obtained in viedicetion of a principle
prectical object of the
ch'figthheesthimghoenaset ein't"uss.ac: itn-i'vilit:'eicetion of the c sneete.
tional principle that a Goverament at issue with the ex-
isting Parliament upon acerdinal point of its policy was
bound to take one of two alternatives—either to resign
office es course which no oee recommended under the cir-
cumstances), or else to appal to the people. Bat there
was another object which Parliament lied in view, and
that was to discheage its solemn duty to that great prin-
ciple of commercial policy which they were bound to
see well brought homo to haven, and at the earliest
moment.—(Bear.) It was a fallacy against which every
man ought to guard, that because with the present Go-
vernment in power, the principles of the commercial po-
licy of the country had not been altered by auv positive
measure, they were to rent sa isfied. It would bo no
fulfilment, but an abandonment, of their duty to be con-
tented that the matter should so. remain. It had been
admitted on the other side that it was a solemn duty upon
them all to bring the matter to a spsody and final issue.
That could only be done by an appeal to the people by
dissolution; sad, therefore, in asking a dtseuluti et it wo
not for any party object, but it was berme, if there
WAS one duty more ineumb than auother at the pre-
sent time upon that large mejerity of the llonos of
C ,:tim..)ns who lied on repsated oseesions testified their
opiei eel in favour of, and given their cordiel adleettes
to the princleles of free trade—it was that they should
net be contented, whatever might ba said ot the ex•
istenco of Lb. Ministry, to leevu thus° principles to
°xis: epen sufferance—to the chapter of accidents, that
t'my should Istsve them as matters mew. etood, in the
guerdietelip o'w-who:nu whose own iecauatious, withl
e
out doubt or disguise, wro opposed to them—( ,ar,
hear)—but that they should, expedite tho process ladleh
the Prime Minister bad justly and fairly proposed;
namely, the process of obtaining the deliberate judgment
of the concituenciee with regard to the principles of
their commercial legislation; and having so obtained it,
that they should then find them in a condition to lay
down a course of policy by which they meant to be
guided, and that if they foiled the public averse to the
policy which
they had hitherto pursued, then that they
should frankly and finally own that state ot facts, so that
at length this groat controversy might be at length defi-
nitively ended, and the machinery of the constitution
might fall into its usual course and order. This was
a question which was not applicable to the merits of
the Right Honourable Gentleman as to other pro-
posal; and not involving any animadversions of an
acrimonious character on his conduct. It was a
question strictly relating to the introduction of a
Bill and to the inquiry as to whether that Bill
ought to be entertained at all. Inasmuch, then, as he
bad clearly shown there was no constitutional ground or
claim for the introduction of the question at the present
moment, he thought it right also to point out the great
inconvenience attending its introduction. It was a
sound canon of Parliamentary practice, that, except
under immediate urgency, the eve of a dissolution of
Parliament was the worst moment for the introduction
ot measures like this affecting the constituencies, for it
was a moment at which local partialities and personal
interests were most alive, and at which it was most diffi-
cult for Members of the House of Commons to give a
deliberate and dispassionate judgment. But, beyond
that, this was a question with regard to which two
essential conditions for its consideration entirely failed
them. The first was, although the scale of the subject
was a small one—although it might appear not a serious
matter what should be done with so insignificant a
fraction of their representation as that -of four
seats out of 658, yet it was plain it was a
question of the highest importance, and de-
serving the most serious consideration ; and,
above all others, it ought to be approached once for all,
and then should be finally settled. Those seats ought
not to be held up to the people as a prize for every man
to snatch at. The matter ought to be decided, not in
a provisional and unsettled state of things like the pre-
, sent, but when they had got an Administration in full
possession of political power. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had himself already seen and mentioned some in-
dications and dispositions of all parties unrepresented, or
not sufficiently represented, to catch at the possession of
those vacant seats. These were claims which ought not to
be decided haphazard, nor by accidental.: divisions, in
consequence of parties being nearly balanced, nor in a
disorganized state of the House of Commons. But the
proposal ought to be made with the authority of a
strong Executive; and, once seriously entered upon,
it ought not to leave the table of the House until a
definitive conclusion had been arrived at. There were
moreover, great difficulties in the case which the Right
Ilan. Gentleman had hardly adverted to, which per-
haps be had found it necessary to pass by. When they
satin the multitude of parties who could make a plau-
sible claim to those seats, they were bound to consider
what was due to them and to the feelings which they en-
tertained. He did not say they could please them all,
but they were bound to satisfy them all that they had
had a fair hearing of their case; and he put it to the
Right Hon. Gentleman whether this moribund Parlia-
ment was in a position to give a fair hearing to all their
different claims. The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded
to some of them—to the universities—and he stated the
case of the universities of Scotland as entitled to respect
and approbation; but the upshot of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman's speech was, that for want of machinery,
for want of degrees, he had toregone the idea of enter-
taining the claims of that university. But the members
of that university could say that the degrees were but
the certificates of attendance, and that these could be ob-
tain, d by some other means; and that if the conditions
for conferring the representation on the universities of
Scotland were fixed, these conditions could be readily
satisfied. He e.id not pre judge; but if ail the parties
were to he fairly heard, they could hardly sa-
tisfy the universities of Scotland that they should
be passed by because there was no regisiation
of degrees in existence amongst them. He said
the came with respect to the inns of court; and
also with respect to another class of claimants—the un-
eofranchised towns.—(gear, hear.) He did not enter
into the question whether the university and the inns of
court, as representing the elucation and intelligence of
the country, or the uneufranchised towns, or the old
constituencies should receive those seats. But this he
did say, it was their duty caret (Illy to examine and in-
vestigate the question—to enter upon it when they , had
a free choice—not to precipitate the determination of
it. The late Government has proposed to bestow them
upon Burnley and Birkenhead. He had never examined
these particular claims; he said nothing about them;
but it would be rather hard if they passed them by,
and if they legislated at a period when they could not
possibly have time to entertain them. Nor could they
expect that the people of Burnley or Birkenhead 'would
be satisfied with the verdict of the House of Commons
if they wore determined, without any consideration of
their claims, to go to an issue upon the question at a
time when it was impossible they could entertain
those claims. There seemed to be in the Right Hon.
Gentleman's mind something which he had not stated—
some secret about the constitutional number of the Mem-
bers of that House which he bad not been able to fathom.
All he could say, then, was, that, having consulted their
history and the laws on the statute-book, it appeared to
him upon the clearest evidence that there was not any
constitutional virtue attaching to the number 653. Any
opinion that there was such was the purest fiction that
ever entered the mind of man. It was a matter of no-
toriety that during the last eight years—during three
Administrations, with a general election intervening—
they had fallen short of that supposed constitutional
number; and such being the case, he put it to the [louse
was it necessarily a matter of constitutional importance
to proceed with this measure—while, on the other hand,
he lied shown it was not a constitutional practice on the
eve of a dissolution to proceed with measures which were
not of immediate urgency. So far, then, from the pre-
sent time being advisable, it was the worst and most in-
convenient that could be selected for the decision of the
question, while he had proved that their decision could
not give satisfaction to many claimants upon the fran-
chise whom they were bound to hear, or to the public at
large, who view with much interest the disposal of a
question pertaining to the representative system of this
country. He moved that the House do pass to the
orders of the day.—(Cheers.)
After a short pause, during which no Member rose,
he Renee divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... l4B
For the amendment
—B6

Majority
The proposition of the Government was seoordingly
,ost.

THE MILITIA.
The House then went into Committee on the Militia
Bill, resuming at clause 7.
Mr. HUME said this clause contained the essence of
the Bill, which was the creation of a reserved force of
80,000 men. Believing that the money would be wasted,
be moved that the Chairman should report progress;
and he hoped the House would agree with him that this
question should be referred to a uew Parliament.
Mr. WALPOLE said the proposition was not very
reasonable. The Bill had been repeatedly affirmed. Ho
hoped therefore the decision on one case would not be
the guide to another.
Mr. HUME would, under these circumstances, take
the sense of the Houso upon the clause.
Mr. BRIGHT said, the two- staternen ts made the other
night by the Home Secretary and the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, respecting these 80 000 men, altogether al-
tered the circumstances of the case. The division that
had just
taken place was not unexpected, nor, he be-
lieved, unsought by the Government. The House curie
to a division with one speech on each side. Such a
majority of 04,
circumstance was unprecedented. A
bad pronounced egainst
nthnettimro,goerneeent,ifi
.Lts proved
that the Govertnno
at
didT Righjt y the cnHon. Home Lecroeftatig
House of Co
said this wasinainendifferente' be
question, and that majorities of
the House had p
ressed their ateent to the principle.
It was a diffslent question,
but he denied that the majo-
e
the principle of the Bill. A question of
rides were on
oinvolving expenditure of
such great importane..,onot.
money, an
and 80,000 men, for
three-quarters of a with
martial purposes,
Parliament like the witn the ballot in perspective, should
not be decided in a dislocated
pre-
sent. Referring to the speech
iht) considered it alto-
e speech of Lord Derby at the
Mans
getheion-house, r
a peace speec;
only fur his own
Arnbassedcla speaking not
he
h
(gra.nd ther speech of the French
Govern-
ment, but for the whole corps dtplomatique, was a most
satisfactory assurance that nut only was there no ques-
tion in dispute with France and other countries but
n
there was, in fact, perfect amity. If those
distiguis bed
men could be believed, what should be though
Government for urging forward such a measure as this
any
of the '
—a measure of a more dangerous character than y
that had been proposed since 1815. The course now
_
takieg by the Government was one the best calculated
to produce the result which they professed to avoid.
One of the Ministers of the French President had stated
t's) an English gentleman in Paris that nothing was more
calculated to excite ill-feeling in Frazee than the dm-
C 45"5-4" ggin:Cil ju.r6riktmint aid ill this country
•

SUN,

on the eulj-ct of this Bill. The same Minister had pre-
eented by his own power the insertion of extracts from I
u speeches, f r tee puroote of er erentiog heat iii
the mind of the French people on• the sueject. LTeder
the-e cireurnsteeeee he thouebt the Committee should
riot he caked ta divide on tee clause; but that, ref,er the
division artnigh-, the Bill &hould at least be postponed
for a few days until it should be reconsidered by the
Cabinet, it it was not postponed until the assembling of
the new Parliament.
:Jr. J. BELL agreed with the Hoe. Member that the
eireurnstences of the case had changed since the intro-
duction of this Bill. Triere had been positive evidence
since then of the fallacy of the feers that had prevailed.
If the French Piesident elesired t r invade this country,
he would have token adventagr of tire period when this
country was left without a Government. lie hoped,
therefore. the House would eceede to the proposition of
the Hon. Member for Manchester.
Mr. FOX said there was one remarkeele change since
the introduction of the Bill. It bad been stated that
two successive Governments hod given their assent to
the measure. leading to the ie;eletice that they were in
possession of privete information; got the Noble Lord
at the head of the lute Government hid eieelared Ids ,
conviction that, there was no imuaell see or urgent din.
Hear" from Lord J. Russell)—while • the pre
w:et tir,vernment feel poepened the urgent prineiplo of
the 13111—namely, the hal tot —to the close of the y. ar.
Ihe inevitable conclusioo was, therefore, that no den.
ger existed, anti that there could be no public wrong
in postponing the measure emit the uext Parliament.
He (Mr. Fox) was of opinion that this measure was the
prelude of a change of policy es respected the foreign
relations of this country, and for rocking it more of a
military power. It was, therefore, a measure which
ahould not be entertained by a moribenal Parliament.
the cone;ry would regard us an ominous C mjumeion
the revival of protection end of a mili.ary force, in the
nature of an arrny.ef reserve. On grounds of prudence
her Majesty's Government would do well to have this
Bill postponed.
Mr. WALI'OLE declined to enter on the general ar-
gument, not from any disrespect to the Hon. Member
for Manchester, but because the principle of the mea-
sure had been frequently discussed. The clause before
the Committee had been debated during two nights, and
there bad been more than one division upon it. Under
these circumstances, he thought the Committee could
take no other course than that of proceeding with it;
and the Hon. Member for Montrose would see that
there was no ground, therefore, for his motion. The
lion. Member for Oldham would, however, remember
that the urgency of the measure was declared by him
(Mr. Walpole) not to be the ballot, but voluntary en-
listment. He hoped thenHouee would, therefore, go on
with the clause, which -had been twice before discussed,
and on which there had been three divisions.
Mr. HUME only wished that Parliament would not
enter on such a large expenditure as 80,000 men in-
volved at the present moment, but defer it until after the
general election.
Mr. FORBBS could not see what an addition to the
Parliamentary representation had to do with the dee
fence of the country. Ho might be wrote; as to the
nature of the danger, but he certainly did think there
was all the less of it when the country was prepared.
He could not understand the objection of Hon. Gentle-
men opposite to the militio, whoa he considered their
antagonism to standing armies. The militia was con-
stituted on a far better footing than the National Guard
of France, or the militia of America. He (Mr. Forbes)
would ratner pay taxes than have contributions levied
on him, either directly by foreign bayonets, or indi-
rectly in the form of a forced loan. He would not be a
party to defeating the Bill in any shape whatever, be-
cause he believed it to be absolutely necessary.
Mr. WAKLEY thought the discussion of this Bill
should be persisted in until her Majesty's Government
were convinced of its inappropriateness. The vote of
that night had changed the circumstances; the Govern-
ment had sustained a defeat on a strictly Government
measure. In a House of 382 Members the Government
were absolutely in a minority of 86. He would ask every
constitutional Member whether an instance existed of a
Bhiell. could He
putw ouhldis asfikng theer
oa
Government who so completely wanted the confidence of
the House being entrusted with the conduct of such an
any
he
constitutional EI
precedent? Ho denied that the
cimhepqourtearnitf
precedent could be
found. Well, then, in that case it was the duty of the
people's representatives to discuss the principle of the
Bill. The Bill was dreaded and abhorred by
Was it a Bill which the minority
ought to allow to pass?
Ile did not care about being charged with acting with a
factious party in obstructing this measure; he was satis-
fied with the consciousness of meaning to do his duty
to his country honestly and fairly. When the Bill
was first introduced by the Noble Lord (Lord J. Rus-
sell) he bad implored the Noble Lord to show any suffi-
cient reason for such a Bill. He had heard no reason
stated. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite bad also
assigned no reason why this Bill was more needed in
1852 than in 1842. He was for peace all over the world;
but it appeared to be the wish of the supporters and
framers of the Bill to produce as many provocativea to
war as possible. As far as France- was concerned, he
saw no symptoms of a warlike character. The French
had had enough of disturbance; they apparently wanted
nothing now but peace, and he believed the present ge-
neration of French people would not be anxious to go to
war. Such a Bill as the one before the House ought to
be obstructed, and defeated if possible, by every mode
which the forms of the House would admit of. The
Government aught not to press forward the Bill this
session; but if they did force the Bill through Parlia-
, ment by the aid of a tyrannical majority, then, he ha-
ltered, they would not very much like what would be
said at the hustings of their conduct.
Mr. WALPOLE—The Hon. Gentleman had com-

menced his speech by saying that GlVernerit were in a
minority, and a Government in a minority ought not to
advise the Crown to raise 50,000 men for defensive pur-
poses; and he concluded his speech by telling G ,vern-
went they ought not to go on with a tyrennical In ijerity
against the a ishes of the people, who, he believed, were
decidedly against the Bill. Now, if it be a fict that Go-
vernment were in a majority, and that the Houle, by a
majority, had confirmed the principle of the Bill, was it
not right that the Bill should be proceeded with ?
(ilear, hear.) The House were agreed upon the princi-
ple of the Bai, and they were now called upon to con-
sider the details. The Hon. Member might show that
the principle of the Bill was had, but that principle
having been affirmed, ho would nut discuss it then. If
the Hon. Member was right in his argument, the proper
time would be to discuss the principle at the third reading.
Mr. B. ELLIS well knew the effect that the former
Militia Bill bad on the rural population. He was satis-
fied the proposed "army of reserve" would produce simi-
-lar effects when the term of enrolment expired. They
would return to their homes and former occupations to
deprave.nnd demoralise the:population.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said the Hon. Member (Mr.
Fir ekley) had spoken of the division against the Go-
vernment. The persons, he believed, who were most •
surprised at that division were those who supported the
amendment. A great number of MembPra had left the
House, not anticipating a division. It was with the
greatest difficulty he got into the House in time to give
his vote, and there were several Members in the lobby
in a state of consternation because they could not get in.
Ho deeply lamented the division, He thought the proposi-
tion of Government was pertectly fair and liberal, and he
would tell Hon. Members who had professed liberal po-
litics that they could not have taken a more unpopular
merle than that of voting against the Government mea-
sure. It was said by El.. n. Gentlemen opposite that
they must not pass measures of importance 10 a mori-
bund Parliament, but by their acts they desired to pro-
vide an incomplete Parliament to carry important mea-
sure& lion. Members opposite argued that the votes
of Members representing large constituencies ought to
tell for more than ono vote each. .All their argument
turned against them—because by the recent division
they declared that the representation should not be more
equally distributed.—(Hear, hear.) Now with re-
spect to the militia measure, the Honourable Member
(NIT. Ellis) said he objected to it because of the grievous
moral effects it would produce on the population. The
lion. Member said he remembered the consequences
which resulted from the last local militia. This Bill,
however, wait not intended to be a local Militia Bill.
But it appeared there were special circumstances which
made the Hon. Member abhor both a militia or an army.
['hose reasons were doubtless very creditable to the Hoe.
Gentleman; he deprecates a resort to arms, bo deprecates
military power altogether, and of course he deprecates a
militia. But on account of those special ;reasons the
lion. Member was not at liberty to give an unbiassed
opinion. The Hon. Member came to the discussion with
a foregone conclusion. And though the lion. Member
was justly entitled to give an opinion, still that opinion
must stand singly.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to
dividing the House, he trusted they would not have
another snap division—(Bear, hear)—like wbat had just
taken place. Ho trusted the House would • not permit
the principle of the 13i11 to be mutilated in- Committee,
which they had already sanctioned. The principle had
over and over again been confirmed; it was vain, there-
fore, to expect to defeat the measure—it could only :be
uselessly obstructed.
Air. ROEBUCK would just look at the recent divi-
sion, so that the House might understand the fact. The
numbers were 234 for, 184 against; the pairs were 80—
.and these together made a total of 462 Members. Now,
462 was a large portion of that House, though it had
been said many went away not expecting a division;
that argument might operate on both sides—so that there
was an end of the Hon. Gentleman's snap division.
The fact was, that the Hon. Gentleman knew the ma.,
jority of that House was cgainst the Government on
that question. The opinion of the House was, and ;is,
that the present Government ought simply to pass those
measures necessary for the good government of the
country; to defer all other measures, 'and to bring the
Parliament to an end. He readily acknowledged that on
e
th
Bu
t
Lordas hhoaudti
since
hvybc yae
11hiititia Bill a majority of the House was vgainst him.
which
ehnederstood how (hut was. First, the Administra-
tionich preceded the present
a similar Bill, and Government introduced
the
a large portion of their supporters
wberoeaken loose. from his fetters (we under-
stood), they gave. But the Noble
aasonliattigiteßpiollr,tiootir
Therain wt
stood), and
Militia Bill.oaftthleealistonthseis,
representing a
large section
were strongiy against all Militia • of the population, who
addressing Government in consequence
Bills. They were now
vote, by which their minority wan
of the recent
to view. And they said, "Wb as remarkably brought
tended to do? Da_ just enough to ntoot do what you in-
business until you can go fairly before the on the public
and when you get another Parliament, edcoonstituences,
what
con-
stitutional Government ought to do."—(Hear, a
suppouing Government were in a majority on thishareß.),
they would still he crippled; for they who were in a mi-
nority would turn round and say, " Any Government
beaten as you are, as a constitutional Government,
ought to resign." It was clear Government could not
escape from the difficulty, except on the principle that
.thEy would qpeal to tao country, If Governukout told
- ,_•

them that, then he yielded. But Government said, "It
is. true we are beaten, but it is in a Liouso of Commons
that is not ours, rind that, we does not properly
represent the people of the country."—(ilear.) To that
he replied, if you pass tho Bill you are shattered and
shaken by your position, you will be unable to do that
which is right in the next Parliameat in consequence of
your false psition. The Right Honourable Gentle-
man was hampered by his position—ho was bound by
one set of opinions, while he was dolt alt he could to
maintain the opinions of . Gentlemen b, hind him. The
Right H in. Gentleman was not at the. presmt moment
in a straightforward course, and he could tell the Go-
vernment they could not on that account govern the
country. The Hight Hon. Gentleman may be in a ma-
jority on the Bill, but he was in a minority as far as the
[louse was concerned; he could not, therefor", maintain
tight prineiples--he could not govern the country en
fixed principles. He did not care who came forward and
told him Government were right on this qaPEtion, and
that they had a majority in that Rouse—:itin it was clear.
Government were playing .3 false gstoe, their nuthority
vv,is shaken, and they could riot do is hat was right. In
a constiiutional point of view ho contended Government
(might to withdraw not only this all, but every 13ill ex-
cept the Mutiny Bill and the Bills requisite fur the army
and navy services. The Hume hal in oot4N,ce
the greater portion of those ineasnrcs, rw I therefore the
bait thing the Right Hon. Gentleman ceull do for him-
self and the country was to hriog:the matter to a close
to withdraw this Bili—and then if th.: country Was
wil-
ling to have
I', they would enable Geuerntuent not only
:upportie~ the
peculiar
ecuolri
,ry lr
viewstllt B
0: Ifl
iti)eu but
aalrlve, Llt7%‘l, fa
hich thr
c Ru lot lion.
GeArktch.e_nritiE%,b7eol,iimicirr.
E repeated that Brea`
the supporters of Government were shioreoattit
nu
irnern bar
the of
late division. As far as the measure was concerned, be
again stated that the House, by a great majority, had
already determined' that some such measure of defence
should pass, and he therefore trusted her Mai"tis Go-
vernm for if the an• ent would persevere;Geutlernen
had wished the session tube brought to a close, why dial
they.not select. some opportunity before of defeating the
Government?

Sheffield had explained the division satisfactorily.
Mr, REYNOLDS thought the Hon. Member for
and
hid shown that 462 Members was a large portion of that
House. He would account for the opposition he in-
tended to offer to the Bill. Re had been told if the clause
were rejected, it would endanger the Bill; 'that was a
strong inducement for him to endeavour to
get . that
clause rejected. The HOD. and Learned Gentleman (Mr.
f
Whiteside) had been very
et-ego-eat in the laudation of a
militia. Why, then, did the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man not extend the benefit to Ireland? Why should
England have a militia and not Ireland? He bad
always heard, at least from cooks, that what was
sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander; but
here all the sauce was given to the goose, and none to
the gander—(Laughter.) Ireland, however, though left
out of the Bill, was included le the more important part
of it—for Ireland would have to
Pay her share of the
burden—(Hear, hear.) The Icon,Gentleman here re-
ferred to the Kafir war, and adverted to the item in
the Budget of 600,000/. for the expense of that war.
He had lately askei a friend who .had just returned from
Kafirland what notions the Kafirs entertained of Chris-
tianity. His reply was, that ono part of the Kafirs con-
sidered Christianity meant brandy and tobacco, for it was
through the agency of brandy and tobacco that conver-
sions were attempted to be made. Another part of the
Kafirs considered that Christianity meant burning corn,
stealing of cattle, abusing women, and slaughtering one
another. Now he would ask the House, was it lot time
to put an end to all this bloodshed and expense? He
contended that a Militia Bill was not needed,
and that Government were not justified in inflicting
it on the country. He thought the bounty
would be a premium on emigration to America.
The men were to be drilled for twenty-one days, and
then to be set at liberty to go where they liked. That
was called providing for the defence of the country.
He might refer the Committee to the_authority of Paley
for the reasons why that eel( brated philosopher thought
a regular military force preferable to a militia for the
defence of the country. He had not heard a single ar-
gument from Hon. Members opposite in favour of the
Bill. If the public prints were to be believed, no one
could apprehend any danger from France. The Presi-
dent seemed to be occupied in consolidating his power,
in promoting schemes for the improvement of France by
railroads, drainage, education, and other peaceful works,
and in breaking down that terrible band of men, the
leaders of the Red Republicans. It was quite true that
the present Bill had been supported by large majorities,
but majorities were not always in the right; and it
ought not to be forgotten that there were many lieute-
nantsd of counties in that House who would have a great
deal of patronage under the Bill, if it became law. He
thought the Bill unwarranted and uncalled for.
leablcurn.gSoAfNthDeßS
Bill-though said
h he
h he did
ad voted for the secanct
not approve of all its
details—and he had done so on the ground that addi-
tional defenees were necessary. His impression had
been that the best mode of providing that defence would
have been by an addition to the regular army and by
voluntary corps; but the speech of the Noble Lord the
Member for Tiverton bad convinced him that the best
mode would be the means proposed by the present mea-
sure. tie did not at all approve of the compulsory
clauses, and ho had to suggest to ills Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Secretary for the Home Department whether
it would not bo advisable to get rid of these clauses. He
felt satisfied that it would be imposstblo to carry into
effect these clauses in the part of the country he canto
from (the West Riding), and would recommend their
withdrawal.
.Mr. MOWATT said that without the compulsory
clauses there wunlii be co meaus of ensuring any force
at all. Ho was one of those who thought that Our de-
fences were not in a satisfactory stet'', and that we
wore not sufficiently protected against probable danger.
For years he' had entertained_he might almost say
the conviction—ghat this country was exposed to the
risks of aggressions of a warillo character, and that
these were risks which ought not to be allowed to
hang over them. Iu the course of the debate many
military autherities had been referred to, bat ho had out
heard any one assert that thew military authorities
could not provide for the defence of the country if the
expenditure of the 16,000,000/, voted for military pur-
pose.) were left to them political consi-
derations. His justifie ' • - • ,riet the present
etion in voting aga- '
13111 was the manner • which our regular forces were
in whi
distributed in different lel We seemed
parts of the wor •
to distribute our forces at oar extremities, and to
Y
leave ourselves exposed to a ere e thrust at our heart.
y
An additional reason wh he voted against the measure
was his opinion that the present Government were not
the persons to bring for ward this
eat as they measure, more espe-
cially after such a defeat had that night -
sus-
tained.
After a few words from I'4r-
the Crawford, Mr. Brown,
and Mr. G. Thompson against -Bill,
divided The Committee then7ided
wh
en
there appeared—
).
For reporting progress , 85
ogress ... •••
Against it 156
•••
, ... OD.
Majority against the motion
0 gallery we found
—7l
On our return to the ' 'n
d
Mr. HUME moving the • • of the clause, and
complaihing of the contra omission
the
conduct of' the
Chancellor of the Exche contrast which _
his
party on that
occasion presented to. the(leer and or
whichthey had pursued
course
on the Opposition benches,
The. QiIANCELLwe
of'
" the EXCHEQUER said
the Ilon. Goutleman had - h (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) had on
formerstated that C
occasions always been
ready to oppose every pro F ofcocra
thesi
expenditure of
puhlic money. But that waspthution for wherever the
credit, tee honour, and tho not'
so;
of the country were
security
involved, he had never ions for expen-
diture.—(Cheers. °1,3 ) As he was
esed PreP"sl__e,, to oppose
grants of public money to was
thenotprepar o
diridende to the
disbursement. creditor, co he was P 437 dto oppose any
of publie tunot prepare'
delete© of the
country.— (Hear, hear.) uneY . for the
thing more
on the clause, which had belle would
discussionsy.o gariag
two nightd: He believed thatti under
olic
then re-
quired was a declaration or what.
the •
•
Mr. HUME said that the honour end the interests of
n
the country were not at etake.o that occasion. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had otter
I, failed ee establish
any such position—(Langhter, -erica,of " Oh, oh")
—and it was on that groued that and
the measure. He would he ho (11r.H4cuet) opposedt
any proposal which was ba„%ueo of the
necessityfirst oosfunippalt.
tabling the public credit, But
tnhtbe
rebefore them
was only a means of endangering e that credit.—(Hear,
hear.) All profligate Governments exhausted the public
resources by unnecessary expecdita.
Laughter, and
general marks of disapprobation 'ie .---(Ministerial
n. the .
benches.) If Hon. Gentlemen 0
way ho should be obliged to that
coovenpoaite went on in.
eain that the Chair-
man should" leave the chair, because he was not to be
bullied.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) told
If he were
that he was anxious to destroy the
should throw back the charge. ,e public credit, he
believed"h he had done
as much as any man to preserve the public • •
credtt—
(Hear, hear)—and their credit would iaog perhaps be in
the in which it was if he had, not '
. state inter fered.—(A
leugh.) Those who knew g nothin at all about the matter
were laughing, but he pardoned them. n dCI not
want to quarrel with the Chancellor of the Exechl
he wanted to keep his coffers full. He (perk
was ashamed ot
the course pursued in that matter by many Members
with whom ho had lung been in the h •
' ' e
but Whigs and Tories had agreed abit of
on that that r''
waste the public money money. Ho would occasiondiv hto
Committee against the proposal to enrol and tete
80,000 additional men as part of the a e keep up
e rmanent armed
force of this country.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the clause ... ...
••• 169
Against it ... ••• ...
...
82
Majority for the clause
... 87
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
On clams 8, which empowers the Queen fu Council to
fix the quotas in the different counties from which the
force is to be drawn,
Mr. M. GIBSON asked for information as to who
were strictly liable to serve. He understood that any
poor man with more than one child could claim ex-
emption.
Mr. WALPOLE said that exemption would be
claimed under the 42d of George 111. ,
rhe words of this
clause were in conformity with that Act.
Mr. COBDEN doubted if gentlemen were at all ac-
quainted with the provisions of the Act in question.
Mr. WALPOLE said that this clause provided for the
contingency of the voluntary enlistment not producing
the requisite number of men. If the ballot were put
into operation every person of a certain age and height
would be liable to serve, and exerePtien would be claimed
under the statute to which be referred.
Mr. M. GIBSON thought it would be well to post-
pone this clause until the compulsory clauses came under
consideWration.
MA ALPOLE said here was "'ling in the clause