The Sun.
London, England, 1852-11-26 00:00:00

ANGE—Tnis DAY.

Gibraltar
Leghorn
Genoa 25 135
Milan ....... .. -
Venice . -
Naples ......•• •• •• •• ••

Palermo .. ...... • • • • • •

Messina .... • • • • • • • • • •

Lisbon......

Oporto

41%
123. N

531,4
531 i

Rio Janeiro ...• •••• • • • •
Buenos Ayres .......• . •
New York,6o day's sight
Philadelphia . •• •
PRICES OF BULLION, PER OZ.
Foreign Gold in Bars 23 17 9
Portugal Gold Coin.. 0 0 0
Spanish Doubloons .. 0 0 0
New Dollars.-- 0 0 0
Silver in bars .. .. .. 0 9 0

.~----sue; ---~,r-

RIDAY EVENIN

IMPERIAL PARLI E Nl'.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—YESTERDAY.
(Continued from our Third Edition of tastinight.)
STATE OF PARTIES.
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to say a few words with
respect to the question raised by his right hon. friend,
and he rose simply in the hope that anything which
might fall from him might not only be of such a charac-
ter as to contribute to the issue of this discussion, such

as should be satisfactory to the great body
of the house, and the best calculated to

promote the undisputed permanence of the
present commercial policy of the country. (Hear, hear.)

lie found that even up to that moment some progress

had been made towards a settlement of the whole ques-
tion, and he ventured to hope that they would agree to
the suggestions of his right hon. friend with regard to
the insertion of certain words in the amendment pro-
posed by the noble lord the member for Tiverton. And
then, although they would not, in point of form,
be entitled to say that either the amendment of the Go-
vernment or the original motion should be withdrawn, yet
if the concession were made they would be entitled to come
to something like a common conclusion. (Hear, hear.)
Now, the whole question that was before them, related
to only two of the changes of policy and feeling
which had taken place in the house, and it

was now proposed in order to perpetuate that policy to
make a change in the first resolution, from the phrase—
"in a great measure," to the word " may." He
did not think that any objections was to be
taken to that change, and therefore he should confine
himself to the words proposed to be inserted in the se-
cond resolution. The question for them to consider was
simply what would be the bearing of those words if
adopted, and the sense and meaning of the resolution so
amended, namely, whether it would be agreeable to the
feelings and wishes of the great body of the house?
For that reason he was favourable to a motion of this
nature, but at the same time he did not think it desira-
ble that the question of compensation should be settled

in a motion directed simply to the purpose of establish-
ing the policy of free trade. He was not willing to pre-
clude the Gooternment by an anticipatory motion from
bringing forward any measures which they might think
fit to bring forward on this subject, He thought the
most acceptable way would be for the house to adopt
that course.

Mr.T. BUNCOMBE said, that for the nine Parlia-
ments during which he had sat in the house, he never
before had seen it so trifled with. First of all, they had
been made fools of, just as if it had been the first of
April, on Monday night last, when the motion for the
call of the house had been abandoned. Ile confessed he

should like to have seen the face of his hon. friend the

member for Montrose when he saw in the papers that
his motion had been withdrawn. (Laughter.) The
quarrel, as he thought, very pretty as it stood originally,
but with these amendments upon amendments, he was
quite of opinion that the country would be puzzled.
There was the original motion of the hon. member for
Wolverhampton, and the amendment of the Government,
and so far the course was plain ; but then came the motion

.. - __— -----
of the noble viscount the member for Tiverton, and now
they had something more recent from Carlisle. (Hear.)
He should like to ask that noble lord how it was that
_ _

he had become possessed of that motion from the-right
hon. gentleman, the member for Carlisle ? (Laughter.)
The conclusion the country would come to on the sub-

ject would be, that the gentlemen below, the
Whigs,---and he heartily wished that Whiggery were
about to be buried with protection—were not yet
ready to occupy the places of the gentlemen opposite.
He supposed the hon. baronet had been re-Whigged for
the occasion. (Laughter.) The best course would be to
take the hon. baronet at his word, and adjourn the
house, to give the right honourable gentlemen
time to settle amicably their little differences.
Mr. CAYLEY said it might be considered presump-
tuous in him to intrude himself into this discussion, but
he was an old soldier in this field of controversy ; he
hoped he had been a consistent one—(hear, hear)—and
he wished now to state his views as to the position they
were now placed in. He could state most sincerely that
ever since the repeal of the corn laws in 1848, he never
for a moment contemplated the re-imposition of them.
(Hear, hear.) He was certain that protection had at
that time got its death-blow, and that it could never be
restored again. (Hear, hear.) He was confident when
the hon. member for Wolverhampton gave notice of such
a motion as the one he had submitted to the house, if he
did not know that there was not the slightest hope of
ever again restoring protection, he was the only man in
that house who did not entertain such an opinion. He
did not, therefore, think it fair that by the hon. and
learned gentleman having submitted such a resolution
to the house, he and others who thought with him,
should be deprived of any outlet. He admitted that
free trade had taken the place of protection, and he
confessed that he should never make an attempt to re-
store protection, or endeavour to get compensation
for those who had suffered from its abolition—(hear,
hear)—and he had not the slightest idea that any mea-
sure of the kind was contemplated. (Hear, hear.) What
he understood by the paragraph in the Queen's Speech,
which had been so much talked of, was that if in ar-
ranging the finances of the country it was found that
taxation pressed unjustly on any particular interest mea
sures would be introduced by the Government for the
purpose of remedying the evil. He, asked no more
than that. He was willing to become amenable to the
law, as it stood, and had no objection to the continuance
of free trade—(hear, hear)—and he, therefore, thought it
unfair that he should have addressed to him the propo-
sition that ho ought to recant every opinion he ever held
and everything he had ever said upon that subject.
(Hear.) Sitting in that house, they had perfect freedom
of person, they had perfect freedom of tongue, and he
was in hopes that a liberal Opposition would have per-
mitted them to have perfect freedom of thought. (Loud
Ministerial cheers.) He did not recant any of his former
opinions. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, he saw
that the country was placed in a dilemma ; and he,
therefore, thought if they wished to benefit the country
they should allow the matter to be finally set at rest.
He was quite willing to accept of the resolution sug-
gested by the noble lord the member for Taunton, with
the additional words suggested by the right hon. baronet
the member for Carlisle, in order that a resolution in
favour of free trade might be placed upon the rolls of
that house and he hoped hon. members would not press
the discussion further. He was placed, then, in a some-
what anomalous position. Ile was an independent
member of the house, and on the free trade question had
done his best to maintain that position. He had never
entertained any rancorous feeling against Sir Robert
Peel, for certainly the last thing in his mind was the
entertaining anything like a personal rancorous feeling
against him. He might have had his doubts as to the
prudence of the course he took to carry out his views,
but that was all. He hoped, therefore, this useless dis-
cussion would be allowed to come to an end by accept-
ing the middle course now submitted.
Mr. ROBERT PALMER Was prepared to give a di-
rect negative to the resolution of the honourable and
learned member for Wolverhampton. In the first place
he could not agree in that part of it which stated that
the act of 1846 was a " wise, just, and beneficial" mea-
sure. He had had some experience in that house, and it
was not likely that he would be made to recant opinions
which for more than 26 years he had there maintained,
by giving his sanction to such a resolution. The
opinions he had formed in respect of protection to native
industry had been held by men
more wise than himself.
He had gathered them from Canning, from Sir Robert
Peel, from the noble lord, the
member for London, and
from the right honourable baronet; the member for
Carlisle ; and though some of these had changed their
opinions, he had not. (Hear' hear.) He was aware
that the sense of the country had been decidedly against
any re-imposition of protective duties, but what he was
more particularly anxious to do was to state that should
the resolution of the noble lord the member for Tiverton
be adopted in place of the resolution of the honourable
member for Wolverhampton, or the amendment of the
Government--and he had as yet heard no word from the
Government what they were to do respecting it—he had
to enter his protest against being a party to it. The
country might be in favour of it, but that was not
enough to cause him to change those opinions he had
held for 25 or 26 years in that house, and the justice of
which he still maintained.
Lord PALMERSTON said he could not but hope
that the conversation which had taken place encouraged
the belief that there was a prospect of the house coming
to a more unanimous conclusion
on the subject than he
had entertained when he suggested his
resolution the
other night. (Hear, hear.) Re
must say that the
remark which had fallen from the
hon. member for the
North Riding of Yorkshire (Mr.
Cayley) did him the
highest credit--(hear, hear)--coming from one of his
standing In that house--one who had maintained an in-
dependent position in respect to the question—one who
throughout this controversy had exhibited good judg-
ment, and as to the soundness of -whose convictions there
was no doubt, but who had yielded them to a sense of
public duty—it was to be hoped that what he had
stated would have influence on others, and lead them to
follow the course which the hon. gentleman had indi-
cated. (Hear.) His hon. friend the member for Fins-
bury (Mr. T. Duncombe) had put to him a question.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The question was
with regard to how he (Lord Palmerston) came by the
resolution of the right hon. baronet the member for
Carlisle. Now, he could assure his hon. friend he came
by it by very lawful means. (Much laughter.) He made
a slight alteration in it—(continued laughter)—for the
of avoiding a discussion on
purpose, as he imagined,
granting compensation to the
a collateral point, as to
agricultural interests, but understanding since then that
the words he had omitted only applied to the future, and
left the case as to the past open, he had no objection to
their being introduced into his resolution, and he thought
he understood the hon. member for the North Riding
to say that he had no objection to their insertion also.—
(Hear' hear.) But his hon. friend, the member for Fins-
bury had put to him another, and a more practical
question. His hon. friend had asked him what would
he do should the motion for the honourable member for
Wolverhampton be rejected, and the amendment of the
Government carried ? Would he put his resolution as
an amendment against that of the Government ? (Hear,
hear.) He could answer that question by asking another.
(Laughter.) Would his hon. friend support him ?
(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE.—Yes, • certainly, against the
Government. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON.—WeII, he could assure his
hon. friend that if he was encouraged with any expecta-
tion of adequate support he should do ao—(hear, hear)

NOVEMBER 26, 18

—and he should hope, from what had already passed,
that if the motion of the hon. member for Wolverhamp-

ton was either withdrawn or negatived, he might ex-
pect a general acquiescence in his resolution, for which,
as the house were aware, they were indebted to his
right hon. friend the member for Carlisle. (Cheers and
laughter.) He hoped both sides of the house would feel
that it was a matter of national importance the question
should be now set at rest. That question was not, as to
what were the opinions of the Government respecting
the justice of the act of 1846, but as to what they had
determined on doing to maintain and carry out that
policy, and if the house should come to a resolution that
it must be maintained and carried out, of course its
reversal was altogether untenable. (Hear, hear.) If, then
a majority of that house had found out that the policy
they had been pursuing was beneficial, let them calm
the public mind—let them set at rest those doubts re-
specting it which might still linger in the breasts of some
parties—let them answer by a resolution of that house
the question put when Parliament was closed, and let
them, as unanimously as possible, affirm that they had

established and recognised that system as the founda-
tion of the commercial legislation of this country.
(Loud cheers.)
Sir L. BULWER said the whole question was in
what form of words they could adopt a resolution on
the subject, which would beat satisfy the people out of
doors. Now he could not assent to the resolution of

the lion. member for Wolverhampton, because it threw
out insinuations as to the motives which had actuated

hon. members on his (the Ministerial) side of the house
in times past. Well, the noble lord, the member for
Tiverton, had suggested a resolution for the puD)ose of
obviating that objection, and coming from one who had
long been accustomed to maintain their national honour
by advancing their political prosperity, he bad no objec-
tion, especially after the speeches of the right hon. gen-
tleman, the member for the University of Oxford (Mr.
Gladstone) and the right hon. baronet the member for
Carlisle, to agree to it. (Hear.) After they had agreed
on the thing that was to be done, it was out of the ques-
tion to be 'nice as to verbal criticism, and in agreeing to
that resolution he did not consider himself prevented
from doing what he could to bring about a fair applica-
tion of that free trade which the agricultural interests
wanted. (Hear.) He, therefore, most cordially agreed
in the remarks which had fallen from the hon. member
for the North Riding, and he hoped that others would
evince the same conciliatory spirit by throwing aside
their party feelings and predilections and let the question
be settled.

- The Marquis of GRANBY and Lord BERNARD rose
at the same time, but the latter giving way, the noble
marquis said he should like to hear from the honourable
and learned member for Wolverhampton, whether he
intended to persevere with his resolutions. (Hear, hear.)
He trusted he would persevere with them. (Cheers and
laughter from the Opposition.) He hoped he would do
so, because he heard the honourable member for Man-
chester declare the other evening that those who pre-
tended to be Free-traders, but were not prepared to vote
with the resolution, that the act of 1846, was " wise,
just, and useful," were no Free-traders at all ; and he
told the honourable member that if he did not divide

the house, it would go out to America, that the present
was a Protectionist Parliament. Last year a similar

motion was proposed, on which occasion he addressed
the house, but had received no answer to his remarks
then, nor had he since. What he was anxious to state
was, that he for one could not agree to any one of the
resolutions which had been submitted to the house.

(Cheers and laughter from the Opposition.) He
totally dissented from them all. (Laughter.) He agreed
with the honourable member for Finsbury, that there
was so much mystification and doubt about the resolu-
tions before them, that as to their meaning he owned he
was completely bankrupt. (Laughter.) If, however,
the debate should continue, he hoped the house would
allow him again to address them, but, if not, he
said once again that he dissented from all the reso-
lutions. (Loud laughter.) He did not think, ad-
mitting generally the prosperity of the country,
he did not think that such prosperity was owing to
recent legislation, but was to be attributed to other
causes, and if it was owing to legislation, it was not
owing to that which recognised a system of free compe-
tition. If, however, the country had been benefited by
the commercial policy pursued of late years—if the
poorer classes were better off now than they were before
the passing of the act of 1846, he did think that some
apology, that some acknowledgement was due to the
memory of the man—(loud cheers)—to the memory of
the man who commenced and carried out that policy,
whose patriotism he for one never doubted, and the
purity of whose motives he never impugned. (Continued
cheering.) He said that if it could be proved, which he
denied, that this policy had been beneficial to the coun-
try, then some acknowledgment was due to his memory
who had carried it out—some acknowledgment that it was
not only patriotic and conscientious, but farseeing and
sagacious. (Loud continued cheering.) Might he ad-
dress himself for one moment to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer—(hear hear, and laughter)—might he tell
him that he cordially agreed with him in what he stated
the other night, when he said that he had never brought
the question of protection before the house? but he was
sure the right hon. gentleman would admit, that at all
events he had been generously and without reserve sup-
ported by the Protectionist party in that house, and
also by the Protectionist party out of doors. (Loud
cheers.) With these few words he would quit the sub-
ject. He was not about to oppose himself to the de-
liberate verdict of the country. (Hear.) It was not his
wish to agitate the country on the question of protection
—(hear)—but entertaining the opinions which he did,
that the present prosperity of the country, which he ad-
mitted was owing to other causes than free trade, he re-
served to himself the right of maintaining those opinions
whenever and wherever he thought proper. (Cheers.)
Mr. H. B. JOHNSTONE considered all the house
had to do was to pass a resolution to the effect that the
system of free trade would not be interfered with. He
must, however, give his vote against the resolution of
the hon. member for Wolverhampton, as he considered
it a direct attack upon the honour of English gentlemen.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said his
hon. friend the member for Berkshire (Mr. R. Palmer)
stated that he had not replied to the question put to him
at a previous part of the discussion. But he confessed
the question was of such a nature that, not calculating
upon it as a contingent in the discussion, he did not
deem it his duty at once to answer it ; and he confessed
he thought the better and more regular course would
have been for the hon. member for Wolverhampton to
have stated what he intended to do respecting it. But,
as he had not done so, he should address the house. His
noble friend the member for Leiceetershire had reminded
him how generously and unreservedly he had been sup-
ported by the protectionist party in that house and out
of it ; and he must say that, however highly he might
consider himself honoured by the confidence that party
had placed in him, he had done everything which his
abilities or his energies could do on behalf of the landed
interest, who, he thought, had been unjustly treated
by recent legislation, as expressed in the amendment
which had been placed upon the table. (Hear, and
cheers.) One would suppose, from some observations
which had been made, that the Protectionist Government
had come down to that house to avow a change in their
opinions. (Hear.) If any one should suppose that, he
had only to state that the opinions of the Government
were the same as ever. (Ministerial cheers.) Here was
a Government which in no way acceded to office on the
question of protection. (Hear, hear.) They said they
would leave that to be decided by a general election, and
the verdict of the country being taken, they would bow
to it. (Hear, hear.) If they had acceded to office for
the purpose of advocating a system of protection—had
dissolved Parliament on that question, and found that
the country would not support them in their advocacy of
it—then they would have resigned their position.
(Cheers.) But he was not aware, from all that had
occurred, that in present circumstances it was their duty
to follow such a course ; but if it was the opinion of a
majority of the house that it was, then the issue would
be speedily tried. (Hear, hear.) He had all along said
that this was a question of taxation. No one had con-
tended that the native industry of the country had a
right to support, unless it was subjected to heavy public
burdens. He considered that such a course should be
pursued as would allow them to enter into competition
with the industry of the world. He would not now
name the course which the Protectionists might have
most conveniently pursued at a former time ; but he felt
that he would not be doing his duty to the party in this
house and out of the house, who had so generously sup-
ported the Government to which he had the honour
to belong, if he did not state that he was prepared
to bring forward measures which would have the effect,
he hoped, of giving them relief from the burdens
which pressed so heavily upon them ; and he hoped that
such measures would meet with the approbation of
Parliament—(hear, hear)—and prove of general ad-
vantage to the community. To the amendments pro-
posed by the right lionourable baronet, the member for
Carlisle (Sir James Graham), and that of the noble lord,
the member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston), he would
not personally offer any opposition, preferring rather to
leave it to the house to decide upon them ; but to the
resolution of the hon. and learned gentleman, the mem-
ber for Wolverhampton, he would offer his most decided
opposition. He had that night heard from the right
hon. baronet, the member for Carlisle, a complete vindi-
cation of that passage in her Majesty's Speech which
had been so severely criticised. The right honourable
baronet had told the house, that although no party was
entitled to compensation for any injury that might have
been alleged to have arisen from the legislation that had
taken place, still that the subject was a most legitimate
one for inquiry. (Hear, hear.) What was the language
expressed in the speech ? Why that if the Parliament
should be of opinion that certain interests were injured
by the legislation that had recently taken place--that
legislation which had contributed to the commercial wel-
fare of the country, the house would take it into consi-
deration—(hear, hear)—and that was the course which
the resolutions which he proposed to lay before the house
were intended to recommend. (Hear, hear.) He
would, when the time would come, state his views to
the house on the subject ; but he did not know that
the question of compensation. had ever been brought
forward. It was impossible that resolutions to that ef-
fect might find some favour in election speeches ; but hon.
gentlemen Night not to have bad• recourse to election
speeches, in order to deduce from them the maxims of
great statesmen, and the
•
ment. (Hear, hear.) Ilpolicy of the Enlish Parlia-