The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS. April 20.
ROY AL ASSENT.
The Royal Assent was given to-day to the Mutiny
Bill and the Marine Mutiny Bill, and several private
Bills. The Lords Commissioners were, the Lord Chan-
cellor, the slerquis of Exeter, and the Marquis of Salis-
bury. Their Lordships then adjourned during plea-ure.
At Five o'clock the LORD CUANCELLOR took his seat
on the Woolsaek.
COUNTY COURT PRACTICE.
The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition
from the attorneys' articled clerks of Westminster, pray-
ing to be allowed to act as advocates in Comity Courts.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES AC T.
The Earl of ABERDEEN presented a petition from
Galway against the Ecclesiastical Titles Act.
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the Law of
Evidence (Scotland) Bill was read a first time.
MAYNOOTH GRANT.
Earl TALBO r presented a petition against the May-
nooth grant.
PATENT LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Lord COLCHESTER, in moving the third reading of
this Bill, stated the alterations which had been intro-
duced into the Bill while in Committee. The nature of
these alterations, however, did not reach the gall( ry.
After a few observations from Lord WALDEGRAVE and
Lord CAMPBELL, the Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Bishopric of Quebec Bill was also read a third
time aad passed.
THE MAYNOOTH GRANT.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE rose to put a
question to the Noble Earl at the head of her Majesty's
Government as to his intention relative to any future
grant to Maynooth. After going into the history of
the original endowment, the Noble Marquis said that
the answer given by the Noble Earl opposite to the
question put by a Noble Lord not now present (Albe-
marle), had been materially disturbed by the speech of
the Solicitor-General (Sir F. Kelly), delivered only a
few days ago, in which that Learned Gentleman stated
that he was ready to concur with the Government,
of which he was a Member, in any step to put an end to
the College of Maynootb, if such a step should
be found necessary upon inquiry, and if the existing
contract and engagements could be got rid of with
honour. With regard to any inquiry, no notice of any
intention of moving for a Committee on the subject had
been given by the Government in either House. There
certainly was a notice of motion for a Committee on the
subject standing on the order-book of the House
of Commons, in the name of Mr. Spooner, but
the proposed object of that Committee was
not to inquire into the existing contracts and engage-
ments with the College of Maynooth, but to inquire into
the nature of the education given at that college. That
was a motion which when made by a Noble Earl
(Roden) not now present, in 1845, the Noble Earl,
now at the head of her Majesty's Government, had op-
posed. This wsa a subject of such great importance
that the Government ought not to leave this country and
Ireland in the dark as to their real intentions ; and if
they had any intention of making an alteration in the
present settlement of the question, it was not on the
hustings but before Parliament that they ought to
deliver them.
The Earl of DERBY said that he thought that the
difficulties of maintaining the endowment to Maynooth
to which he had alluded on a Fevious occasion, would be
greatly increased by the speech of the Noble
Marquis. The Noble Marquis had more
leisure than he had to real newspaper re•
ports, but he must protest against her Majesty's
Government being made responsible for any newspaper
reports of any speech whatever upon the hustings; and
still more for the accuracy of any comments which the
Noble Marquis might make upon that report.
From what ne c mid learn from the Noble Mar
quis of the speech in question, the Solicitor-
General appeared to be of opinion that the set-
tlement of the Maynooth question in 1845 had not pro-
duced all the good effects which had been anti-
cipated from it. In that particular point he
could only say that the Solicitor-General shared
the feeling of a large number of people
He quite agreed with the Noble Marquis that any in-
tention of any alteration ought to be proclaimed before
Parliament, and not cn the hustings, and he could only
repeat his former statement that her Mejesty'e Govern-
ment had no present intention of making may
alteration in the present grant to Maynooth;
hat should circumstances arise to make any such alter-
ation necessary, ample notice would be given in both
Houses, and the Noble Marquis would have full oppor-
tunity of taking any steps which he might think neces-
sary for the purpose of opposing it.
Earl GREY thought that his Noble Friend was en-
titled to a distinct answer to the question which he had
put relative to a most important matter. The Noble
Eerl opposite was a Member of the Government which
had brought forward the Bill of 1845, and in that House
had appealed to their Lordships, as statesmen and as
Christians, not to reject that Bill. If there was a respon-
sitnlityin rejecting the measure when introduced, surely
was greater of rejecting it af'er it had
the land for seven years. The Noble
been the retshpeenslaiwbi loi tfy
Earl had stated that the Government had no present
intention of proposing an alteration, and had laid great
stress on the word
" present." Now he did not ask
the Noble Earl to pledge himself never to repeal the
Act of 1845; but he thought be had a right to ask
the Noble Earl whether the views which he expressed
on the question in 1845 were now altered. Upon that
Without saying
point their Lordships were entitled to an explicit de-
claration. Reference had been made to a speech of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of the prin-
ciple which n h
ought to guide Parliamentary government.
considered, With singular
right in the application which leg had made of those
principles, he must sa • that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had stated them that the Right Hon. Gentleman was
with e3ingular abi iity, and, abstractedly
were all aware of the
eflona now' making to excite h.
slings of the
electors on the als f,ooth question. Go-
vernment were not just' "
-correctn b. 35. Their Lordships
the agitation going
bodies by refusing to expressonamon the different religious
teed in acl'Yirncs to and stimulating
tion
which was exciting
The Noble Earl
taken in supposing that his
the ground of good faith
ther their views on thewer
Noble Friend who had asked
the question had gone the lengthn gup altogether
expressed or implied, as a o continuing the
reason for
grant. There was certainly promise that
the college would not be pall implied
. the Government
Same diafer-einvcine—t a contract,
He hoped • to adopt
the same course on this subject not goingtee
as they had on.
question of a duty on foreign corn, lie hoped they were
not going to avoid the responsibilityd -
a,,:rwoud to be put down.
cided opinion
on the 4 of OXpr ening a e
v vvvJecv, sad that they Iwo not

WrIDNESDAY

going to allow officials connected with the.Govoinment
to go fishing fur a few act's-Catholic votes, while they
themselves avoided committing themselves on the ques-
tion. Such a position would dee a moat unworthy ono
for the Government to stand in, and before the conversa-
tion ended, he hoped the Noble Earl would give them
some clear explanation on the sutject.
The Marquie of CLANRICARDE wished to know
whether there was to be an injury ou the subject?
The Earl of DERI3Y—AII I said was, that the con-
struction to be put on the epeech of the Solicitor Gene-
ral was, that an inquiry was to be moved for, not by the
Government. but by a private Member.
Earl GREY—Does the Noble Earl adhere to the
epinions be expressed in 1845?
The Earl of DERBY—I do not think the question is
one which the Noble Earl has a right to ask er any
other person.—(Cheers) I can only say that I have
been greatly disappointed with the results of the mea-
sure of 1845—(Renewed cheers.)
The Earl of NIINTO—nw Noble Earl has said that
he had no intention, as at present advised, to alter the
arrangement with rasp* et to Maynooth Supposing that
the Noble Earl spoke for himself, I should like to know
whether, in the event of such a proposal coming from
some other quarter, the Noble Earl will be prepared on
the part of tne Government to resist it?
The Earl of DERBY—If the Noble Earl gives notice
of an intention to move for the repeal of the Act of 1845,
I will be prepared to state the course which Government
would pursue.—(Cheers and laughter.)
The Earl of HARROWBY said lie might ask the
Noble Earl (E sal of Minto) if he entertained the
same opinions now which he did in 1845
(Laughter.) For his own part, he wished to see a full
investigation of the sutojeet by
a Committee. The ob-
ject of the endowment was to enure a loyal
Roman Catholic priesthood fur Ireland. The
question in the first place was, had Maynooth pro-
duced a loyal priesthood for Ireland, or was it breeding
up a priesthood, not only for Ireland, but tor the colo-
nies and Englanl also?—(Hear.)
that was so the
question would be materially altered. The withdrawal
of the grant would be a grave step, and be did not say
that it would not be better still to continue it, but he
required investigation. He believed that several misre-
presentations had been made at the time when the Bill
of 1845 was proposed. He did not believe that the po-
verty of the college was such as it had been represented.
He did not believe that the students were suffsring from
the privations stated by Sir Robert Peel, and he had con-
siderable doubts whether the funds for the educatioa of
Roman Catholic priests for Ireland were appropriated
solely for that purpose.—(gear.)
Earl GREY thought the Noble Lord bad taken a
somewhat unusual course.—(A laugh) He
was
not
aware that he had ever expressed an opinion as to the
results of the Act of 1845, At that period he was a
Member of the other House, and he had no recolleution
of ever having made any speech on the subject. Lie had
supported the measure certainly not BO much from any
expe.etation of immediate results, but from its being
held out as a conciliatory measure to the Rom in Ca-
tholics of Ireland, and which he believed would be
accepted by them in that Spirit. He had always thought,
and still thought, that the state of things with
reference to the endowments of the Church of Ireland,
was one which could not, and ought not permanently, to
remain. The great body of the people were Roman
Catholics, and the Church established was one of ex-
treme wealth—(Oh)—he
would not say extreme, but of
great wealth, derived in a great measure from the eu-
dowmenta possessed by the Roman Catholic Church
300, or 400 years ago, and which toe Roman Catholics
thought they ought still to possess. That wealth had,
however, been transferred to the Church of the minority,
and formed the nines for providing religious instruction
for that minority, composesi of the morn wealthy classes
There were at the same time Perliamentary endow
meats for various claeses of Protestant dissenters in Ire-
land, but except the annual grant to Maynooth no pro-
vision was made fir the spiritual instruction of the great.
mass of the people. It appeared to him then, and it
still appeared to him, that this anomalous state of things
ought not to continue. If the situation of matters were
reversed, and Ireland had not a majority of Roman Ca-
tholics, he, as an English Protestant, would not rest con-
tent until he procured the establishment of a different
state of things. It was with such views that he had sup-
ported the measure; but to say he had any confident
opinion that any good system of education would be se-
cured by the establishment of Maynooth, or that he
had any confident opinion the measure would work any
marvellous good, was quite contrary to fact. It was
tendered in that form and he accepted it.—(dear, hear.)
Now, he hoped his Noble Friend would admit he had
pretty clearly explained his opinions. Those opinions
might be right or wrong; but if wrong ho had no.
shrunk from fairly and honestly explaining them. D
wrong he had held them in the other Howie of Parlia-
ment, and the same opinions had uniformly guided him
since he had a seat in their Lordship's House.—(bear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was, like his Noble
Friend (Earl Grey), about taking an unusual course—
he was about to answer a quesi ion which had not been
put to him. His Wish) Friend opposite had said his
question was put to those who supported Sir R. Peel in
his Maynooth policy as to their motives and expecta-
tions in giving that statesman their support. Having
been one of those who had strenuously supported the
measure he felt bound to state, though he did not ex
elude from his consideration the hope the Noble Lord
adverted to, that it would produce a favourable effect on
the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy, it was no,
in the hope of producing that effect that he gave his
support to the measure. He looked to no such bargain
as the Nehle Lord seemed to think was the case. lie
did not adopt from the Noble Lord that ground
assigned ter the measure. but he adopted the
ground assigned by Sir R. Peel, that it was important
to the Protestant people 01 England that the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy should have a good education. Tnis was
an object not dear to ltemu,n Catholics only, but dear to
every member of the communil composing the country
at large, who, not being able to ignore or to prevent the
existence of the Catholic religion in Ireland, had a deep.
common, and lasting interest in educstem being con-
ducted according to the approved forms of the Catholic
Church, and subjtet to the inspection and observation or
the Government authorities. That was the ground on
which he supported the measure—that was the ground
of that statesman—and he should be glad to know if his
Noble Friend (Lord Harrowby) saw any reason for,
changing his opinion in that respect. Ho also supported
the measure on a ground not adverted to by the Noble
Lord, but which he thought important at the time—
namely, that it had bean found necessary for a period of
30 years, by every Minister, and by every Government,
to come down to Parliament, and year after year to raise
the question,
and
to place themselves under the neces-
sity of calling upon Parliament to do that which
Parliament had always been reluctant to do, and
which had always created etrite and opposition; that
he saw in the measure a provision for a standing
grievance and inconvenience which excited strife,
political disputes, and irritation, and that therefore he
for one felt obliged to the Government of the day,
headed by Sir R. Peel, end supported by the Noble Lord
opposite, for the moans they took, as far as lay in their
power, to put an end for ever to these circumstances,
calculated as they were perpetually to renew and keep
open the sense of grievance, which it was the object of
all wise Governments to cover over, to palliate, and,• if
possible, to obliterate. He supported the measure on
those grounds, and seeing as he did the immense import-
ance of avoiding the constant recurrence of mischievous
discussions on the subject iu or out of Parliament, he ad-
jured the Noble Lord and Government not to hastily
adopt a course calculated to lay the foundation once more
for a perpetual renewal of those annual votes and discus-
sions, as must be the case if the old policy was resumed.
If this vote was annually proposed, it would renew and
perpetuate all the evils to which he had alluded. He had
thought it right to state these matters to the House. He
had supported the measure on the grounds he had stated,
and he was prepared to support it again, not because be
thought it would have the affect 01 augmenting the
loyalty of the Roman Catholic priesthood, but because
it was best fur the public at large. Of this he was sure,
that the loyalty of the Catholic priesthood would not be
increased by a withdrawal of the vote.
The Bishop of CASHEL protested against the state-
ment made by the Noble Earl (Earl Grey), that the
Church property was obtained at the Reformation, and
handed over to the Protestant hierarchy. No such
thing happened. Of the Rumen Catholic Btshops at the
Reformation the greater number embraced the Reformed
faith, and continued in their see. It was no more the
fact that the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland were
robbed of their property to be hand, d .over to the Pro-
testant priesthood, than the Roman Catholic priesthood
in England were robbed of their property to have it
handed over to Protestants. The property.in bueb Cases
passed the same way. The Church property in both
countries was not given to the Romatt Catholic clergy
because they were Roman Catholics, but given for the
maintenance of religious truth. The Church of England
and the Church of Ireland stood on the same ground,
and any Noble Lord who stood up and accused the
Protestants of Ireland of robbin-
g the R man Catholics
of Ireland made the same accusation against the F'en•
testents of England. Ne doubt, as the Noble Lord had
said, there was a larger number of Roman Catholics in
Ireland than there were Protestants; bat the Protestant
Church of Ireland had been endeavouring, not without
success, to briiig the light of a purer religion to the
Irish Roman Catholics, It was a singular fact that the+
majority of the people of Ireland who went to the land
of liberty—America—to be freed from the persecutions
of priests and • neighboars. conformed to the Proteleant
Church. From the Quarterly Review he collected these
facts:—The population of America was 23 000,000;
3,000,000 of that number were Irishmen born in Ireland;
4,500,000 were of Irish descent; and of the whole
number of 7,500.000 Irish in America, the annals of the
Propaganda only claimed 1 663 000- thus showing how
many Irishmen received the through
truth the imam-
doe given by Protestant
Earl GREY usemtnisters.
rted his statement was correct respect-
ing the Roman Catholic
Church property is Ireland. The
case of England and Ireland
, i was certainly alike, but with
t
this difference, that in
and the flocks and prelates
went over to the Reformedi religion ; but in Ireland it
Was only the prelates who went over. Ile was one who
conce;ved that Church
property was held, not for the
benefit of the priesthood,
flocks; and he could no,therefore
rfor the benefit of their
pre-
sent arrangement of matters
vvitosreb conceivethat he
.aefictal to the ma's
of the people of Ireland, It was a strange statement,
that which had been wade
b 7 the Right Rev. Prelate
about the large number of Irish
in America who co
formed to the
Protestant religion. He believed the
statement was correct, and the on "ly reason why the same
effect did not occur in •
Ireland was in consequence of the
injustice of the arrangement which had prevailed for
three or four centuries, and watch, bad proved the els-
stael. to tee spread of the ; etner-et tau hs of Protes-
tantism among the
people of Ireland.
The subject then dropped, •
topped, and their
Lordships ad-i
Paned.