The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-17 00:00:00

THE SUN,

tional Guards. That argument, however, was of no force
now, as the National Guard was dissolved. 'therefore, on
the Noble Lord's own showing, this country was mach less
liable to moles ation at the present freemen; than it was in
184 S, when he relirepti•lted his owe proposition to tnibody
the militia at that period. 11e ( Mr. Cobden) was, how•
ever, afraid, from the observations of the Honourable fled
Gallant Member for Bradford in respect to Belgium,
that this country was on the eve of being dragged into
a continental quarrel;—,Hear)—and that calling out the
militia was preliminary to sending out the regular force to
fight on the Continent for foreign interests. After the lesson
taught to England in the last war, however—after the trea•
chary with which she had been repaid for the lavish expen-
diture of her blood and money upon foreign nations, he (Mr.
Cobden) doubted very much whether the people of England
would allow any Government whatever, Whig or Tory, to
drag the country into another continental war. If they did,
then they would richly deserve the catastrophe of national
bankruptcy, which would be inevitable in respect of a people
so impervious to sense and so forgetful of the lessons of ex- 1
perience. With regard to the proposition before the House,
he (Mr. Cobden) had no hesitation in saying that calling out
the militia would be highly unpopular with all classes, (spe-
cially with the poor, who could not afford to pay for substi-
tutes; and he was satisfied that the Noble Laid would see
once again the same public hostility to the measure as he met
with in respect to his measure of 18 ;8. A mere traction of
the people was proposed to be taken from their homes and
placed under martial law for ,no purposes of their own.—
(Hear.) If 150,000 soldiers were wunted they should be paid
for as such—paid liberally; but to call upon a poor man,
who, perhaps, earned 4s per day, to come from his shop,
and to leave that labour which barely sufficed for
the support of his family, and to place himself under martial
law for ls. or Is. 3d. per day, was, in his (Mr. Cobden's)
opinion, to commit an act of the most flagrant injustice.—
( Hear.) The navy was the national guardian of England.
The Noble Lord had no business to contemplate thepossi-
bility of invasion if the navy was properly kept up—an in- '
vasion either by a band of brigands or bfa regular army.
A Swiss Baron had written about an invasion of England, 'it
is true, with 150,000 men ; but that matter had been disposed
of by the professional men of this kingdom, who proved that
all the ships owned by France would not, suffice for the pur-
pose. Another plan had, however, been put forward by the
Army and Nary Journal—namely, that France might land
from 10,000 to 15,000 men on a given portion or portions of
the coast, which force, though nut strong enough to occupy
the country militarily, or effect any important strategical
operations, might nevertheless cause irreparable injury. In
this manner it was urged a buccaneering expedition might
visit the Thames, and levy a Canton ransom on the me-
tropolis. This he (Mr. Cobden), however, • looked upon
as a libel upon the French army.—(Laughter.) It would
be an act of piracy at all events, unless a declaration
of war was made. It was said that the French army
was anxious to avenge Waterloo. Hanging 10,000 men,
which, no doubt, would be the fate of such a body of
invaders, would not, however, be a very satisfactory means
or avenging Waterloo. It was also said, that such a force
would burn the ships in the harbours of Englund. If they
did, they would burn at the same time the ships of other na-
tions—America, Dutch, and others, in °the ports of this
country also. That, however, would cause all these maritime
state to coalesce, and the nation that performed such an act of
piracy would be hunted, if not from the face of the earth, at
least from the face of the ocean, by these ueited powers. All
that he (Mr. Cobden) asked was, that the ships of war, which
cost England nearly 8,000,000/. a-year, should be so disposed
of as to satisfy the fears of the timid. As regarded the pre-
sumed intention of their nearest neighbour, England paid
twice as much for her navy as France, anti three times as
much as was paid by America, because she was au island
and needed ships to defend her shores; but now, the Govern-
ment, notwithstanding the insular position of England, pro-
posed to call out the militia to protect the country against
invasion. He (Mr. Cobden) hoped, therefore, that the Noble
Lord would not press his proposition to a division, but would
postpone it so as to give time for the country to decide on
the question. He (Mr. Cobden) had seen a panic manufactured
in 1848, greater even than the present panic, and he had
seen it defeated. The Noble Lord regretted the withdrawal
of his Bill in 1848. Why did he regret it? The leading
organ of public opinion at this moment said, that England
was never safer than when France was under the constitu-
tional government of an Assembly, which she was at that
period. He (Mr. Cobden) hoped the good sense of the
people, therefore, would as effectually resist any attempt to
manufacture a panic now as it did in 184 S. It was a cry got
up by certain newspapers, which had nothing else to write
about in the Parliamentary recess, and was not the feeling of
the country.
Viscount PALMERSTON and Mr. F. Manic rose at
the same time; but the latter gave way to the cry of the
House for the former. The Noble Lord said he concurred
with his lion. and Gallant Friend on the same side of the
House who had expressed his satisfaction that her Majesty's
Government were doing something at last on the subject
then under discussion. His (Viscount Palmerston's) satis-
faction was not, however, founded on any opinion which he
entertained that there was immediate or pressing danger;
or, in fact, any cause which had not existed at former
moments. He trusted that the relations of England with
that country from which danger was most apprehended to
arise were as friendly as they could be, and that no question
ee as likely to spring up which would expose this country to
any such danger. But the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment knew perfectly well that he (Vicount Palmerston)
had taken the liberty of impressing on him several times
since the year 1846, upon general principles, that it was
necessary for the present safety and lasting interests of
this country that some such measures of precaution should
be taken as those now proposed by the Noble Lord's Go-
vernment, and about to be undertaken. He (Viscount Pal-
merston) had repeatedly renewed his instances, as the Noble
Lord would beat him witness; but difficulties had inter-
vened which prevented their being adopted. He was glad,
however, that these difficulties had disappeared at last. and
that her Majesty's Government were now about to provide in
a more adequate manner for the defence of the country.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken
said that England should not provoke a continental war, or
mix herself in the quarrels of foreign nations; and, as a
general principle, he (Viscount Palmerston) gave that pro-
position his fnllest approval. But, as the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government said, England had engagements of
long standing, which might involve her in such dispute, de-
spite even of her own inclination—political engagements
which extended beyond the limits of her own shores.—
( Ilear, hear.) She had also commercial interests scattered
widely over the whole globe. There was, in fact, no
country iu the world where England had not subjects,
property, or commerce.—(Hear, hear. And he (Viscount
)
Palmerston) was bound to say that the questions of the
slightest appearance were very often the most dangerous as
between nations. This was proved in the administration of
Sir Robert Peel when a question of that nature came
to involve the honour and dignity of a neighbouring
country.—(Hear.) Hon. Gentleman talked of the danger of
a rupture with France alone, because of her fleet and army;
but the House should bear in mind that France was not the
only power in Europe which possessed a large fleet and a
large army. And if this country was involved in a foreign
war, there was no saying how widely the flame would
spread, or how far those other countries would take advan-
tage of the position of England.—(Hear, hear.) But it was
said that this country being insular, and possessing for that
reason a fieetfor its defence, the natural defence of England
was the navy. That very insular position, may, however,
in some cases, be the source of danger for this country.
Continental states • were accessible only by certain roads
which were strongly fortified at the points of entrance by
extensive fortresses. The shores of England, however, were
open for the entire circumference of the island ; and upon
such an immense extent of space it would be impossible to
foresee where an invading force might land. Then the
Channel was narrow; and, as Lord Howe said, " the sea
was a wide place." Three days might bring a consider-
able force from distant places, and few be the wiser
of it.—(Hear.) He (Viscount Palmerston) believed
the British navy to be as efficient at this mo-
ment as at any former period of its history ; in-
deed, he believed it to be more efficient. There was a
great amount of valuable stores in the arsenals of this
country, and a great many ships in her dockyards ; but
was that any reason that the people of England should
not take all necessary .precaution to prevent an enemy
from coming into their ports, and burning the one while
they destroyed the others, before they could be manned to
offer effective resistance?' lie (Viscount Palmerston)
complained of the exaggeration of his lion. Friend in enu-
merating the ships in commission in England. The Ex-
cellent, quoted by his Hon. Friend,
was only for target
practice, and the 'Victory was all but a tender—never sent
to sea, and perhaps unfit for other service. But efficient
as the navy undoubtedly was, it Would be madness to
rely solely and entirely upon it as regarded the defence
of this country from foreign invasion. It was impossible
for any navy, however effective, to prevent the landing
of a hostile force altogether, considering the short in-
terval which separated the shores of this country—he
would say from France—while on the other and more dis-
tant points to which an expedition might be directed—
Ireland for instance— it would be much more successful in
landing, because those points were necessarily less guarded.
Well, then, if it were necessary to have a land force under
such circumstances, armed men to resist armed men—for as
to fortifications it would be useless to think of fortifying any
points except the arsenals and dockyards, there being no
fortifications like brave men, such as would always he found,
men with strong hearts and sinewy arms Englishmen—
if, therefore, a large armed force was needed—he hoped it
would not be so, but it always was less so in proportion as a
nation was prepared for resistance, nothing Wing so tempting
as weakness and incapacity conjoined with great wealth
( Hear)—if it was necessary that this country should have
alikfoerce capable of defending their homes and altars against
an invading army, against the incalculable calamity which
even a month's occupation of the country, or any large por-
tion of it, by an invading army would involve—something
peactehruel,:to:cee proposed by the Noble Lord seemed to him
(Viscount Palmerston) the only plan available for that
Tat rl e
nately did Culloteakr, hear.) It was mighty well for Honourable
Gentlemen to talk of the hardships of taking men from their
course
war, or
knew
nheew
donanotws
know what
with attention
and
eta
ttt
calamitiesee
nr
tciehor teaching gt h ttehh
weehmi s
tt
oo r defend e foe
of
d theirformer
f awma ir-s
country ; but the people of England fortu-
Y would not •
hesitate a moment at adopting
el
any corneae to avert it
puelirgsohnts who read their country
thani:l the landing of Gentlemen who served abroad of
ercea;lamanitdiesevoefn
conceptionot of them ; but he (Viscount
calamity
lammeirtsyt oans )
possiblecoul d
fh
ai s h
oms
ti
inl
ed
forcean go restern th the
occupy the country, or any
e satisfied that the
shores of England sufficient to
of
he
country
ee nltv,hoVriunlagds,
"lint of force in time of
large portion of it, for an lenth
in a time of
the regular army sufficient?
nothah
permitts, the feelings,the m
t oand the finamnco
have an a
peace have—why
(Hear.)
which every country of magnitude and importance had al_
ready a force dormant in time of peace, and organized and
The United
called on to learn the use of arms to defend in
s ip of which we complained
that of being
disciplined in time of war.—d(hHear.)
America did not feel the har
and their country. He
case of need their homes believed
there was a
Ger-
many did not feel the hardship, a
there was 1,000,000 of militia UnitediundtneinrriissiaSates. Ger-
n izin the militia
the same principle by partially legof h. •
large amount of dormant military force.re.o re-organizing
had recog-
nisedeying a
defence. These countries had followed our ex.aln.p
militia, though we had discontinued the
But certainly there was no country having such enormous
militia of lateyears.
wealth, and so many vast interests at stake, which possessed
so little defence agaist invasion. What was wanted were
men trained, disciplined, and organized in time of peace
who were only to be assembled for a short time in each
year to learn the practice and movements of the regular
troops. Without this amount of discip
an army.—( line, a body of alined
men, however large, was a mob , not
What the country required was to have a body who,
of men,
f
on the breaking out of war, would be found under arms
ready to defend their country, A regular militia would
supply that kind of force. They had had a militia for nearly
le
two centuries, and be thought, therefore, there could be no
difficulty in the way of organizing that force. lie confessed
he did not quite understand the difference raised by the
LeTphreef Noble
ee
Lfoorrdlo sc:ild
Noble Lord in reference to the regular and the local militia,
and
ordt.li
the militiarzgaudlavrecmatieli(tliabywtahsefoNrmobelde
by ballot or by substitute. The local militia did not allow

LONDON,

of substitutes except in certain exemptions, but required
personal service. The old militia force was the old consti-
tational Three of the kingdom ; it was trained and officered,
and required to do duty each year for twenty-eight days,
and was prepared to join the regular army in the defence
of the country should war take place. '1 he regular militia
of Great Britain and Ireland was liable to serve in any part
of the United Kingdom. Now he was really astonished
that in any plan for the defence of the realm Ireland
should be left entirely without protection. Local militia,
as advocated by tho Noble Lord, would be entirely confined
to Great Britain. Why was not Ireland provided for?
Did Government doubt the loyalty of Ireland ?---(Hear.) He
pledged his existence there would not be found a siPgle
Irishman, if called out to serve, and who had taken the oath
of loyalty to his Sovereign and his country, who would not
lose his life in defence of both.—(Cheers.) For his own
part, he had the greatest confidence in the Irish militia—
they would to a man b 3 found true to their oath and their
Sovereign—and as to their courage, that was sufficiently
known.—(Loud cheers.) If the country was to have a militia
be could not understand why so complicated au arrangement
as that devised by the Noble Lord should be preferred. It
seemed to him that a simple force, like the regular militia,
might be raised at; less personal inconvenience. The regular
militia permitted substitutes—the regular was available
all over the United Kingdom, whereas the local militia
would only be stationed in county by county, and they
could not he called into action until too late to do essential
service. He would, therefore, respectfully submit to her
Majesty's Government the expediency of leaving :out the
word " local" in their Bill. He would suggest they
should simply leave out the word " local," and bring in
a Bill to amend the Acts of 1802, which regulated
the regular militia. There were many other things
to be considered. The system of ballot might be
improved—the infusion of a uumber of half-pay officers
acquainted with the practical duties of the service would
give an efficient tone to the service. The suggestions if
neglected would give the local militia simply the character
of an awkward squad. He did not approve of the plan of
having men by detachments of ten from one place and
twenty from another. They might depend upon it no real
discipline could be given to a body of men unless trained by
battalions—and unless they were practised in those con-
certed movements necessary to be taught, and useful in
action against an enemy. He was exceedingly glad Govern-
ment had come forward with a measure for providing for
the defence of the country by a force of this character. He
was satisfied the militia afforded the best means by which
danger could be averted, and the best force to have recourse
to in case of invasion ; but he considered the measure before
the House was susceptible of improvement, and that the
regular militia ought to be the standard by which the pre-
sent measure should be regulated.—(Cheers.)
Mr. F. DIAULE joined beadily in the expressions of
applause with which the House had received the speech of
the Noble Lord, and he rejoiced to hear his Noble Friend
bear testimony to the necessity of the country being pre-
pared with a militia force for its defence. His Noble Friend
(-Lord Palmerston) thought the proposal of Lord J. Russell
would be benefited by substituting a regular, instead of a
local, militia. That subject, he could assure the Noble
Lord, had undergone mature consideration at the hands of
Government; and, for reason which were perfectly convinc-
ing, it appeared to Government to be the preferable course
to confine the measure to a militia of a local character ra-
ther than to propose a permanent system of militia. The
regular militia was composed principally of substitutes.
Even in time of peace the very act of allowing individuals
to serve by substitute created so much confusion, that should
the service of the men be required abroad, it would be
quite impossible to make them available. This course had,
therefore, been abandonei. The system of regular militia
which permitted substitutes would not work well, especially
in time of war. In the present measure Government did
not profess to go so far as the system of regular militia ; all
they wished to do was to enable a force to be mustered
which was easy of action whenever the necessity should
arrive for having recourse to their service. The local force
proposed to be established was, as he thought, the most
preferable force. By the old system of the regular militia
it would take many weeks before the ballot would be con-
cluded, and some months before the force could be made
available. Government proposed by a local militia not to
extend the system so far as under the old Militia Act.
The expense and the inconvenience of ballot, and taking
married men from their families, would thus be ren-
dered inconsiderable. One of the advantages of com-
bining men of twenty or twenty-three years of age
was that you got them mustered with far more facility
than under the old system. Except in case of invasion, or
rumour of invasion, they were not to be called to serve out
of their locality. This plan he considered was simple, and
easy, and economical, and would produce a force which
would be found essential for the purposes for which it might
be required. The Hon. Member for Montrose had compared
this measure to conscription in France. Now he held it to
be the duty of every man in the country to contribute by all
means in his power to the preservation of the liberties and
interests of his country. The Hon. Member for Montrose,
however, attached the odious name of conscription to such
duty. He replied that he considered it was the constitu-
tional obligation of every man to rally round his hearths and
altars; and he considered that by that obligation all men
were bound.—(Cheers.) The inhabitants of twenty to
twenty-three years of age were to be first called upon to
serve their country for four years. During that period they
were not to be taken out of their own localities, except
in case of invasion. They were only to submit to a
drill of fourteen, or at most twenty-eight days. This
was a light duty, and he for one should be disappointed
if such a proposition went to the country to be
hooted as unpopular and as a conscription of the
people. The Hon. Member for the West Riding said
he should prefer the regular army to any other force of the
country. The Hon. Member for Montrose would no doubt
oppose the vote for an increase of 4,000 for the army, and
he suspected the Hon. Member for the West Riding would
support him.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for the West
Riding said nothing was so menacing to France as this pro-
position. He could not understand why there should be any-
thing menacing to any foreign nation in a proposition for
providing means to defend your own country. He could not
understand how an act of self•protection should he menacing
to any country.—( Hear.) Lie was willing to take his share
of the blame tbr not having moved in this direction sooner.
He confessed the time had come, and Government certainly
were remiss in not having taken the steps which they now
took. He anticipated that a foundation was now laid for
establishing a home force, which was never to be called
into the field until there was an absolute necessity for their
services. He could not object to see a portion of the
community trained to arms who had something to lose—
who would not be mere substitutes for other men—substi-
tutes drawn from the dregs of the people, and dangerous
men to be trained to the use of arms. The force which
would now be raised would consist of such men whom it was
right to train to arms for the defence of the country. The
subject would be further entered into when the Bill was
brought forward. The Noble Lord had made some objections
to the details. He would say there was an objection that
the measure should be referred to the consideration of a
select committee upstairs. There was one part to which
he would make a few remarks. The Hon. Member for
Dublin asked if Ireland was to be included in the Bill? He
replied that neither Ireland, nor Scotland formed any por-
tion of the Bill. It was limited to England, as it was to
that part of the United Kingdom it was considered essential
to apply the militia system. Ireland was not expected on
account of any doubt about the loyalty of Irishmen; for all
knew it danger threatened this country or the Crown there
was not a single man in Ireland, whatever his religion or po-
litical opinions, but would fly at once to the defence of his
country and rally round his Sovereign.—(Hear,)
Mr. NEWDEGATE, after referring to the recent murder
of Mr. Burns by Borneo pirates, said he hoped the House
would not be misled by gu'dei who had hitherto proved
themselves such fallible prophets of peace. He did not wish
to take any part in the question relative to the necessity for
further defence to our territories. In 1848 he did not think
additional defence was required, but after a careful inquiry
into the subject from those most competent to give correct
advice he was convinced of the necessity of supporting the
measure of her Majesty's Government. He did not mean,
however, to give his support to all the details. In 1848 he
opposed the embodiment of the militia • in 1852 he supported
the proposition for the militia. He believed some parts of
the present Militia Bill were likely to prove useful, and he
considered he was doing his duty in giving the measure his
support.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE rose to protest against the general
tone of argument adopted ' that night. He entirely con-
curred in the eulogium passed by the Noble Lord (Lord
Palmerston) on the loyalty and courage of the Irish people.
But in what they were doing, bringing forward an act
fur the further self-defence of the country, would Govern-
ment allow him to ask whether they were acting quite
fairly or prudently towards a people described by the Noble
Lord as pre-eminently loyal? It was folly to think the acts of
that House would not be canvassed in England, in Ireland,
and on the Continent. They might be assured that continental
nations would say, "while England is arming herself for
defence against hostility, is there not an important portion of
the kingdom, either by neglect or design, left undefended?"
Let Members speak boldly and plainly. He had seen with
pain writings and publications in Irish newspapers tending
to invite a French invasion. He bad seen with pain and
disgust those publications. He deplored the fact of such
things having been written, he deplored the effect and the
act ; but he also deplored the conduct of her Majesty's Go-
vernment in hesitating at arming the Irish people, for such a
proceeding added a kind of colouring to the base and wicked
attempts and arguments of misguided people. He did not
agree with the views of the Hon. Member for the West
Riding. He believed the voluntary system was the best,
cheapest, and most constitutional mode of defence. If that
were so, in what position was Ireland placed? What the
Noble Lord said was true—the better defended and prepared a
country was, the less was the chance of invasion. But if
they took care that Ireland should not be armed, what was
that but an advertisement to France," Soldiers my be landed
here." Such would be the consequgiaces of excluding Ire-
land from the Bill. There was n doubt Ireland con-
tained a fe a disaffected men, but the great majority of the
thepeo Government. they
and peaceful Irish
pglerawaaerdeeanswlodcahl th
he caellpedeopulpeoonf England. That twas
were well affected to her Majesty's loyal
England. The Bill excluded
hoped, however, like the new
Ireland and Scotland. He
cs bajaetcrt3s, ,
at os
they
ye
had them g
itvheen staome means of protecting their
of Ireland were not
declaration to Europe, that the people
It theefo
sr
ammße i 10l sb, that e
If ny wt, eirte
wt
ao
al have b see pna
er
taht ei
aßillsh tor
te fleef c
at
also calumniate the Irish people.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member was wholly
tao be
great
eat dependedmsta
ep oaus.
sltafttetneyend,i dandthipsratchteicyalwlyout c
lhdeyowmomulidt
thed
people of Ireland. Had Ireland been introduced into
unwarranttedßill ionn saucpoopuosnitngofthanaty Ireland bad
in
tbheee nl
oeyxaciltu; eodf
the present Bill it would have created great confusion on
bftaotunl
ridtn
gtGah
toehpvyaae
trrwtnwomouof
account of the great number of parishes and unions. The
Bill for a local militia was made not to apply to Scotland;
Scotland, or that the people were not as loyal as the people
Government
hdt
apply
did not mean thereby to imply distrust of
teolfonnEp
employed
lebaden
in the
decided
domv
was,eert nr
metropolis
ihts
whether
hni dedr this was a local militia Bill,
hciauvoet
quota
t of
to
o militiabEngland
considered—the
respective districts, or to be exempted from
the
theyt o largesbheo towns.ulcontributedd
was a fine body of men, The tTh.eheporobellwiicgeaasftoioorennees
e
and were ready at the call of duty. They numbered
b allowed
T h e
bylgoe theotso-o
of the Militia Act (as we understood.) Irish constabu-
larywas brought they had always behaved well,
consi-
deration when a Bill was introducedwouflod be taken into
rlreland. The ques-
tionor 12,000. This body of police
was, whether the present Bill would beht followed up by
other Bills. Certainly if a Bill
there would also be a Bill for Ireland; and for Scotland
for either had been now introduced, that resultedough no Bill
from no
want of confidence in the loyalty of the people of those
countries.
Captain HARRIS said it was perfectly disgraceful to have
a panic 'about invasion every two or three years. Our
commercial relations were larger than those of any other
country, and on that account we required a larger navy.
If we took our rival, with whom at present we were at
peace, it would be found that it had a sufficient line-of-battle
force in men and guns to cope with us. lie could not con-
eider our ships in harbour as efficient ships, and unless men
were to be had to mail them he could pot eee where their