The Sun.
London, England, 1852-01-07 00:00:00

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said,
of which his Lordship
r.
the Noble Lord how this measure affected the great prin-
ciMi lolfi.cißviklYaNnEdßreWligOiOoDliberty,sus
.lied always been the stanch advocate. Four years ego
he had the honour of addressing a memorial from Man-
chester to the Marquis of Lansdowne, in favour of the
adoption of a national system of education, from which
he would read an extract to his Lordship. It was as fol-
lows:—" That your memorialists would rejoice, above
all, to see established throughout the country a compre-
hensive scheme of national education, by which the great
mass of the people would be provided with sound mental,
industrial, or moral training—the children of different
faiths taught in the same school their common duties,
and the spirit of mutual respect and toleration—and in-
struction iu the religious principles of particular deno-
mina;ions left to the teachers of each denomination."
With reference to this association, he had only lately
become a member of it; but he believed the provisions
of the measure now submitted to his Lordship's conside-
ration were entirely in accordance with those principles
to which he had understood Lord Lansdowne to give the
saecii en of his approval.
Mr. W. J. Fox, M.P., said he wished just to notice
the great affinity, he thought he might say the identity
of this scheme of education wish the plan already so suc-
cessfully carried on iu Ireland under the direction of the
Government. Thu arrangement proposed in the schools
was as lamely as possible the same; there was the same
separation of secular from religious instruction, and the
same attempt at combination of persons of different reli-
gious opinions; and, in the view of the projectors of
this scheme, the result would be the elevation of educa-
tion itself. So long as the schoolmaster was merely a
sort of journeyman minister or clergyman, they should
scarely expect that secular instruction should attain to
that high character which it was so desirable it shoUld
assume. The differences between this and the Irish
system were chiefly, if not exc:usively, those which re-
lated to the rating and to local management; but, as to
the schools themselves, they wished to adopt the regu-
lations followed in the Irish school.. The object of the
deputation was, therefore, to raise English eaucation to
the standard of Irish education, there being this differ-
ence between the cases, that the criminal returns for
Ireland showed the effichncy of the schools there in the
continued decrease in the per centage of criminals who
received instruction, while no such result was obtained
in this part of the kingdom; and us they had otters
heard of " justice to Ireland;' he hoped in this matter
it would not be too much to ask for justice to England.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—l have a very few remarks
to trouble you with on this subject; but in the first
place, let me say I think the country is indebted to you,
gentlemen, who are making an effort on behalf of educa-
tion. I have very long felt that the state of education
in this country is not anch as we should be proud of,
and indeed such as we ought almost to be ashamed of;
and, therefore, I think any gentlemen who have com-
bined for the purpose of improving the education of the
country, whether they succeed or fail in that object, de-
serve credit for making the attempt itself. Of course
there is no privaie end to be obtained in that attempt,
and your labours can only be for the advantage of the
country itself. With regard to anything further, I
have to state that I must not be understood as express-
ing the opinion of the Government, which has not come
to any decision on this subject at the present moment,
and, I may say that any of the remarks which I may
myself make on the subject must be taken as subject to
further consideration and reflection by myself. The
question mentioned by some gentlemen as to the Govern-
ment proposing a scheme of national education is
one that requires to be very deeply considered before
it is adopted. The Government of Lord Melbourne
once proposed what they thought might be an improve-
ment in thegreat system of education; and that; was only
carried in the House of Commons, in a Committee of
the whole House, by a majority of two. Sir James
Graham, again, under the Government of Sir R. Peel,
proposed a scheme of public education, and afterwards
made alterations and concessions in the plan—and very
properly made them—to meet objections; but at last he
was obliged to abandon the measure altogether. Upon
the whole, there are circumstances which show the diffi-
culty in the way of the Government proposing a scheme
of national education. My own opinion is that the
question is advancing to a solution; but I know it is the
opinion of Lord Lansdowne, and it is also my own, that
the question is not at present in such a state as to be
ripe for the Government undertaking it; and under-
Liking it prematurely would be more likely to mar the
object than to promote it. So far, then, as to
the Government. With regard to your particu-
lar scheme, I wish not to say much about
it; but I wish, gentlemen, to consider—and I think
the Government would be obliged to consider, if they
undertook it—what the state of the country is, and what
the opinion of the public would be regarding it. When
there were only Sunday-schools existing in the country
for the poorer classes, the British and Fosfeign School
Society attempted to establish a more general system of
daily instruction. They made it necessary in their
schools that instruction in the Bible should be given,
they refused to accept any creeds, catechism:, or any
thing that would exclude those who agreed to the read-
ing of tho Bible; but that evidently included religious
instruction. When the National School Society was
set up, they required instruction not only in the Bible,
but instruction in the Liturgy and the Catechism of the
Church of England. There have been, also a groat
many schools established by the Wesleyan body, who
re quire that the whole of the Bible shall be read in those
schools, and are not only against excluding religious in-
struction, but against the r.-acting of portions only of the
Scriptures. That shows that the tendency of all those
different societies, and I might add the Corgregatioun-
lists and others; and the employment of the sums they
have colleted have all been directed io combine reli-
gious with secular instruction. And I think, though it is
a system that may be changed, you Few not emit the;
fact us tin important eltmint in the consideration of the
schools which already exist. It isirreposed by this Bill
to combine the maintenance of the new schools with the
t.cb4Ads now t xistieg. That would be very much a
matter tit detail, and would depend upon whether they
could be maintained in a way to which these societies
would agree. I think that at present certainly the gene-
ral opinion of the country is iu favour of a comnination
of religious with secular instru,tion. Perhaps I may
have sonic prejudices myself on this subject. I have very
leag belonged to the British and Foreign School Society,
and have very much adopted their views on this subject;
but that may be a prejudice. Mr. Fox says, and says
very truly, that this scheme is very similar to that
scheme which the Government has adopted, and which
is in force in Ireland, and has worked very successfully.
But I think it hardly follows that although it is the hest
for this country.
Ireland that it would be the best tor
That, I think, is a point which may be disputed. I do not
wish to say anything further with regard to this particu-
lar scheme. There is one thing, however,
to,, that I have seen
with great satisfaction, with_ regardte Manchester. Al-
thoughb protest
I hold in infliand,of the Society of
Local Education Lill, yet I think it is
Friends against the t
bathave been laid before me
evident from the
facts e not
that their objections
are
to
directed to the principle
of a local rate, butnr
Ithink the particular provisions
of the Bill itself; a
of
d there Seems to be in Man-
chester a great majoritythose who pay rates who
aro willing to concur in paying rates for the improvement
of education. I think that is a very encouraging cir-
cumstance, because men in general do not say they are
to pay more than they
ready now pay ; and their being
willing to paY rates for educational purposes proves the
estimation in which they hold education, and the great
binefits to be derived from it. I wish only further to
say, that I hope you will go on with your scheme, with-
out, of course, pledging me self to any part that I can
take on the subject, but because I think that even fai-
lures in schemes of this kind produce much good ; and
with regard to the scheme of Sir J. Graham, to which
I have referred, although it was met by a great deal
of opposition sad clamour at first, yet the ul-
tirmete result was that great efforts were made
to promote education, and great advantages
ensued from that attempt. I will certainly say
further that I do not share in the opinion of those who
think that there is any hostility between secular and
religious instruction. My opinion certainly is, that if
the whole country was to say " We must give up all
hope of combining religious with secular instruction;
it is in vain to attempt it any more, and we can only by
general consent give secular instruction," I am con-
vinced that so far from that beiag hostile to religious
instruction it would prepare the minds of the pupils who
received this secular instruction for the reception of re-
ligious instruction, and would make them better able to
understand that which the ministers of religion would
themselves have to communicate to them. By giving
them secular instruction, however, you may seek to
convey it, you cannot fail to lead the mind to lore and
venerate the Deity, whose wisdom and beneficence are
seen in the works of creation; and to love our neigh-
bours—not to mention those great moral doctrines which,
although not religion itself, cannot fail to prepare the
minds of children, as I have said, for the reception of
its great principles, when afterwards brought
under the
inculcation of religion.
The Rev. Dr. BEARD said, in relation to a remark of
•
Lord John Russell, that the Bible was used in the British
and Foreign Society schools—the Bible was not e
ded
of the
'
from the schools by any provision of the
Bill
association, which gave the power of choosingschool-
books to the school committees; and if those committees
be introduced.
resolved on introducing the Bible, it would
a majority of
In regard to his Lordship's statement,
thata rate for
ratepayers had given their consent to National Public
educa-
tion, ho (Dr. Beard) might state that
that those who were
School Association having thought
as those who were to
to receive the education, as well,bto gone beyond the
pay for it, should be consulted,
b among their supporters
ratepayers; and while they a
epayers,
they
had
received
many of the largest of the t
f theirr Bill 55,000 signatures.
to n petition on behalf o
The deputationeh
bowed their acknowledgments to
rew.
his Lordship, enhd

lion. Henry Labouchere, Presi-
dent the
,len-.fleil. The
ABOUCHERIS —Oll
Monday evening
dent of the Board 0" Trade,, was entertained at dinner by
party included Captain
Beechey (wo accollalbarnes Mr. Labouchere on his visit to
the Venerable Archdeacon Brooks, Sir Thomas
Liverpool),
Bernard Birch, Bart., and nearly fifty other gentlemen, prin-
nerchats connected witl th
ENTERTAINFItEhNetTRigh7 Ma. L
1 e port. Mr. Labouchere
is
the mayor guest during his stay in this town. We
understand that the Right lion. Gentleman expects to de-
pertn Wednesday (this day) for Manchester.—Liverpool
diercury.
ticripeall:yla:vor,
,t 3
- - -

()REIGN VINEGAR.—Mr. Cornewall Lewis has
been directed by the Lords of the Treasury to authorise the
Commissioners of Customs to place foreign vinegar under the
same regulations as wine, with respect to allowances for na-
tural waste, in cases where the vinegar may be exported, and
thereby relieve the parties from the trouble and expense Of
passing entries for payment of trifling sums on account of such
deficiencies.
GRAttn SURREY TIDAL DOCK.—Amongst other
measures proposed for the improvement and accommoda-
tion of the Thames navigation, a new plan is annonnoed
for the construction of a large tidal dock on the Slrrey IQ*
L of the river.