The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-03 00:00:00

SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 3, 1852.

inconvenience. But when we come to the legislative power t
of the Court of Directors, great as it may appear, and great
as undoubtedly is the influence they exercise, their legislative
power dwindles down to nothing ; for not only have the Court
of Proprietors no power, by a unanimous vote, to issue a single
order, but the Court of Directors can issue no order with re-
gard to the legislation or government of India without the
consent of the Crown signified through the President of
the Board of Control. They have no power of issuing a
single dispatch, and more, no power of refusing the issuing
of a single dispatch, which the President of the Board of
Control may think it his duty to insist upon their transmit-
ting. If the President of the Board of Control sends to the
Court of Directors a dispatch upon a particular subject, and
they refuse to deal with that question, he may then, in one
fortnight, compel the transmission of that disp4h ; and the
single exception is the very improbable one, in which the
orders of the President of the Board of Control may be con-
trary to law, in which case the Court of Directors hold
that they have an appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench,
to know whether they ought or not to execute those orders.
But, further, supposing, in dealing with one particular
question, the Court of Directors should think fit to
send particular instructions, and the dispatch bearing those
orders and instructions, when submitted to the President of
the Board of Control, should be by him disapproved of, not only
are they compelled not to send out the dispatch they
intended, but the Board of Control exercises the power
of altogether modifying and altering the dispatch, so as,
if it thought fit, to reverse the whole sense and meaning of
the inetructions- and, under the hand of the Board, to give
instructions altogether at variance with those which they
desire to go out to the authorities as having the fiat of the
fresident of the Board of Control, in whom, after what I
have said, your Lordships will see that, virtually, the admi-
nistration of the affairs of India in this country is vested.—
(Hear, hear.) The constitution of the Board of Control
has undergone alterations since it was established in 1784;
the last, in 1883, at the time of the last Act of Parliament,
by which, instead of three paid commissioners and secreta-
ries, it became what it now is, having a President and two
secretaries sitting in Parliament. That has been the consti-
ution of the Board of Control since 1833, and in that Board,
actically speaking, the whole administration of the affairs
of India rests.—(Hear, hear.) When looking, then, to
the working of this anomalous machine, conducted in the
first place, apparently by directors, elected by a body of
proprietors who have little or no interest in the affairs of
toiir

the country which the directors are to govern—conducted
again by those directors under the control of the President
of the Board of Control, and thereby reduced to be in fact
a subordinate Government board the question naturally
suggests itself, to what purpose is it to continue this complex
and anomalous machinery? Why not vest the nominal autho-
rity in the same hands which are now possessed of the real ?
and why not dispense altogether with the unneceasat y in-
tervention of the Board of Directors? That is a very im-
portant question, and one which the Committee will have
carefully and seriously to consider. I think, for my own
part, that very valid and strong reasons may be given for
not departing from the practical working of that which we
.find in existence.—(Hear, hear.) But it is undoubtedly a
question which will be open to the consideration and judg-
ment of the Committee; and they ought to be satisfied, if
they recommend the continuance of this system, either that
it is one which in itself works well, or else that it
works, at all events, better than any modification or
alteration which can be introduced, by giving a more direct
power to the Government.—(Hear, hear.) I ought to men-
tion that, independent of the Court of Proprietors and
Court of Directors, there is also the " Secret Committee,"
which is charged with all negotiations andaffairs which have
to be transacted with the native princes, as well as other
business which it may be thought expedient to preserve in
secrecy. This Secret Committee consists of the chairman
and deputy-chairman, with, I think, the senior member of
the Court of Directors, and, in conjunction with the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control, this Committee administers
practically all those affairs which come under the political
head to which I have adverted, of negotiations or dealings
with foreign princes.—(llea, hear.) Now, I think it may
not be a waste of your Lordships' time if we just see how this
system has practically operated in India, and what has been
the progress made there since 1834; I have spoken hitherto,
of course, only of that operation of the machinery which is
limited to this country. In India, I think, up to 1833, the
three presidencies were distinct and separate. By the Act
of 1833 it was contemplated to give to the Presidency of
Bengal an overruling and preponderating influence and su-
preme authority over the other two. I think it was even con-
templated at that time that the Council of Bengal should be
a sort of ambulatory council, sent the different presidencies
under their rule for the administration of their affairs : that
practically has not been the case. The Governor-General in
council has administered the affairs of the Presidency of
Bengal.—(Hear.) In 1833 there was also a proposition. for
the institution of another presidency, of Agra; but that
was done away with, and I. believe since that time there
has been a Lieutenant-Governor for that district.—(Hear.)
, Now, undoubtedly the Government of India has been, and I
think for many y
ears must be, that which has been spoken
of is terms of praise by a Noble Friend of mine, whom I
do not see in his place (Earl Fitzwilliam)—"a mild
desPotism." I apprehend none of your Lordships would
dream that the time has arrived at which popular institu-
tions can be applied to the government of India—(Bear,
hear)—and that, practically speaking, it is necessary that
the power of governing these vast dominions, subject to
the control of the Government at home, should be vested,
as it is at present, in the separate councils, and, more
especially, in the supreme authority of the Governor-
General in council. In the formation of that council,
however, in 1893, there was for the first time introduced
a new element, by the addition of a new coun-
cillor, not in the civil service of the company.
Previously to that, I think, it consisted of the Go-
vernor-General, the Commander of the Forces (not neces-
sarily, I think), and three other members of the civil ser-
vice • with them was associated by the Act of 1833 a fourth
appointed directly by the Crown, and charged
with peculiar to ions, but having only the power to at-
tend the deliberations of that council when they entered upon
the discussion of judicial and legislative business.—(Hear.)
Now, I do not lay any stress upon the extent of territory
acquired by the Company since 1834, because I am by no
means sure that the acquisition of all that territory was by
any means an unmixed advantage, and I am sure that the
possession of great portions of it was forced upon a very re-
luctant Government by circumstances over which they ex-
ercised no control ; but the • Pict is that since the
, . .•

last time this question came before Parliament
.here has been added to the territories of the
company an area of no less than 165,000 square miles,
comprising a population of 8,380,000. In the course
of that time it has been necessary, no doubt, mate-
rially to augment the expenditure and establishment of the
Indian service, but I am happy to say that with the ad-
vance of that establishment, although I confess there has
been a certain addition to the annual interest of the debt,
the revenue has increased from 18,500,0001. in 1834, in round
numbers, to about 25,000,0091. in 1849-50, while the
charge has increased from 18,600,0001. (rather in excess of
the revenue) to 24,806,00e1. in 1849.50 (being rather below
the revenue); the estimated charge for 1850-51 is (we under-
stood) somewhat in excess, arising from circumstances which
it is not necessary to detail. But I think it will be gratify-
ing to your Lordships to learn that, while there has been an
increase in the territories of the company, and an increase of
revenue equal to the increased charge to be borne, the com-
mercial prosperity has made rapid and immense strides
during that period. I hold in my hand an account—l will
not trouble your Lordships except by stating the first and
last years of this return—l find the tonnage of British ves-
sels between this country and India stands thus :—The ar-
rivals in 1834.35 were 108,000 tons ; in 1849-50, 252,000
tons. The departures in 1834-35, 83,776 tons; in 1849.50,
280,897 tons. The imports. in round numbers, had risen
from 61,000,000 r. —6,000,000/., in 1834-5, to 12,000,0001.
in 1848-9, the last year for which there is a return ; and
the exports of India have, iu the same time, increased
from 8,000,0001. to 18,000,0001 (Hear, hear.) In the
course of that time it is not only the material and commer-
cial prosperity of India which has made rapid strides—it is
not only that large territory has been added to your do-
minions, and new nations subjected to your sway, but I am
happy to say, that in the arts of peace there has been a great
and salutgLy increa.se.—(liear, hear.) With regard to that
which 1 ?I:rust look upon as one of the most leading objects,
though it is an establishment which has to contend with
many obstacles, and work its way gradually through a mass
of ignorance and superstition and of conflicting difficulties,
which render its advance slow and almost imperceptible, it is
satisfactory to know that, whereas through the whole of the
vest territories of India there were only employed in the
service of the company 31 chaplains, of the Church of Eng-
land, in 1813, when the episcopal authority was first intro-
duced, in 1832 there were a bishop and 76 clergymen. The
Act of 1833 multiplied the number of bishops, assigning its
bishop to each separate presidency. There are now, instead
as in 1812, or 76, as in 1832, three bishops,
of the ministers of the Scotch Church.—( Hear,
and no less than 130 chaplains of the Church of England,
improvements which have taken
hear.)
iv and gradually introduced, since 1834,
place, cautious, and gradually ionfd3cipecilhid()ern' tthe great social .
hfitrstahpdlaeacer,nesthtat
attention which
has
of
been the object of the
1 cannot but mention,
this :country, viz.,
' the total and entire abolition of
in
nconthstae
yet, by an Act
great difficulties had to be encountered,oth
slavery throughout its dominions ; and, although
Passed in 1813 in India,
taken as in the rest er Majesty's. do-
`—ear, bear-) Another not less gratifying change has
do-
minions, slavery was at once and completely abolished.—
in India. In 1833 it was contemplated to establish, and
examining into thewhole- system
Pe-Lee with regard to the administration of justice
there was established, a legal commission for the purpose of
—the whole spatland civil law, and reporting
of jurisprudence in India,
sal of the ena.
generally their opini with a to the necessary altera-
tions. is iu,,,,
yotr
have
regal. .
courts and the courts 1 of the Company.
The Crown co Tlder the control
justice and two puisne
ve to mstinguish between the Crown
to of a chief
judges; I believe, practical
for some time consisted of
• and a single judge.
These have very large and chief
justice
and re-
cently, since 1833, there haveezti7
ally, in two presidencies,. they have
e thinkjurisdiction;
under
the control of the Co been introduced, I
if I make any errors "PallY'..4 must beg pardon
with which I have not broneakilZy upon a suyect
ere
have been established • minor courts familiar,—t
courts in this country, for the ,like the county
in matters of small amount. But, alt of adjudicating
sent oat in 1833 sat for some time, ate. laboured
the Commission
triously, and produced a most elaborat laboured very indus-
at the present moment, I believe und:% code, which is
the Governor of India, that corn,
mion, the consideration of
cuestances, did not enter upon the sc•rom various cir-
of the extensive subject committed to icon; of the whole
lieve, it has been permitted to lapse, the v gradually,ci Iryibne.
upon it not being filled up, and the abour haa sineace d c ---g
upon the members of council appointed under thecychreods
1833. But there are also courts of justice of various gArcatia.:
Cone and ranks authorized to deal with questions of -aeinua-
amounts and moment, with more or less of appellate' v noga tion. I ought not to waste your Lordships' time byja'
you details respecting theZillah Courts and the Suddenother courts, and the various gradations of jurisdiction, but
that to which I desire to point your attention is, that in
the course of the period which has elapsed since 1833
there has been a very great interest in that which
I look upon as a matter of signal importance, viz., the
employment of the natives of India themselves in the
minor courts, and extending considerably the judicial authoe
city conferred upon those courts. - (Hear, hear.) I have said
that 1 think the time is far from being come at which anything
Wee popular institutions should be conferred upon any por-
tion of India ; but of this I am quite sure, that this is your
bounden duty in the interests of humanity, of benevolence,
and of morality and religioa—that as far and as fast as you
can do it safely, wisely, and prudently, the inhabitants of
l India should be gradually entrusted with more and more of
the superintendence of their own internal affairs, under the
control of British authority, and learning to respect that
authority which is vested in the law, and which they see
judietiOnsly and firmly enforced.. temperately enforced also,
be the superior British authority, which they may by long
habit and practice learn to imitate, and, I would hope, even
to surpass. And even if that gradual admission of the In-
dian race . to the benefits of self-government, slowly and
cautiously, should have the effect, not of consolidating and
extending the great fabric of British dominion which. has
been built up, but of leading a people accustomed to self- 1
government -
to desire so.' nething more of control over their
PALM alt as their j Adicial again 37( Heir, hear)-4 aay- I.

that, even if the gigantic power of Britain over India should
in the course of years—but centuries must first elapse—
fall to the ground by the operation of their own hands,
it would have been an achievement worthy of a nation like
this to have rescued the native population from the state of
ignorance, superstition, and debasement in which we found a
large portion of them sunk, and to have placed them, at the
expiration of the period of our dominion, in the capacity of
administering the affairs of their own country as an inde-
pendent nation; but, under the influence of those laws, those
principles, and those sound maxims which they ought ever
to entertain gratitude to this country for having with care
and pains instilled into their hearts.—(Cheers.) My Lords,
I say this is not a work of months, or of years, it may be
of centuries; but, though we may not live to see it, that
does not absolve us from the duty, while we carefully abstain
from placing in the hands of an ignorant population power
which they are incapable of wielding for their own benefit—
it does not absolve us from the obligation of endeavouring to
raise that population in the social scale, and care-
fully to intrust them with such an amount of
the administration of their own local affairs as
not to their detriment but to their benefit, they
may safely be enabled to carry. on.—(Hear, hear.) The
whole of the details of the judicial arrangement, and the
extent to which the admission of natives has gone, every
detail which Parliament may desire, will freely be laid be-
fore the Committee, should it be your Lordships' pleasure
to appoint one to inquire into the working of the existing
system. There will also be laid before you matters of not
less importance than those which I have enumerated—the
steps that have been taken for promoting the material pros-
perity of the country, the improvement of the communica-
tions, the formation of roads and canals, the clearing of the
country, the irrigation of districts which, from the want of
it, were subject to all the horrors of periodical famine -there
will be set before you, and it will be for you to consider
whether the directors of the East India Company, under
the control and superintendence of the Government here,
and through the administration of the various Governors-
General who since Ite33 have held the supreme power
in the country, have or have not been faithful and
efficient stewards of the great interests committed to
their charge.—(Hear, hear.) It will then be for you,
having inquired into the practical working of the existing
system, to consider how far it is wise to continue, either
in the whole or in part - how far altogether to abrogate--
how far to alter or to modify in detail— the system which
at present prevails. But, undoubtedly, one principal
point which you will have to consider is, whether there
be advantage or detriment to the public service in retaining
that intervening authority between the Board of Control,
or the Government of the day, and the people or Govern-
ment of India, which now subsists in the Court of Directors.
The Court of Directors have little substantial power,
but their functions are neither few nor unimportant. They
meet weekly for the purpose of considering and replying to
the various dispatches which are received from the Go-
vernor-General of India in council, and from the various
committees by which the affairs of government are con-
ducted in India. They give to her Majesty's Government
.en all occasions their willing and cordial co-operation and
assistance. I believe the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of
Ellenborough), and all those who have filled the high situa-
tion which he lately occupied, will cordially and readily ac-
knowledge how much advantage they have derived in the
administration of the affairs of India from the talents, abili-
ties, and experience of those gentlemen with whom they
have been brought into contact, and by whose advice they
have been in many respects guided. But, as I said before,
the Court of Directors, if they have no substantial power,
have a large amount of patronage. - Now, is it desirable, or
is it not, that that patronage should rest in the hands which
now hold it? Is it desirable that the patronage of an
empire like India, extensive as it is, and comprising every
variety of employment, should be vested in those who now
exercise it, or should be placed in the hands of the servants
of the Crown, changing from time to time according to the
political changes in this country? In the first place, my
Lords, I think that to bestow upon the Government of the
day the whole amount of the patronage of India would be to
place a very dangerous and unconstitutional amount of power
—( Hear, hear)—practically in the hands of irresponsible
Ministers. I am quite sure that no Minister of the Crown,
andhowever
sincere honestbis desiremight t
ob be d
mh iisn
iisntteern ttiho na
that
, paantdr
ohnoawgeev
feorr t
tr
hu ee
benefit of India, could administer• it with as much know-
ledgegarne
ad t
majorityexigencies
oof of
whomthe
mately as
ys, tantheees
a and personally connected with the affairs of India.
permanent o f the
hear)—and who have an accurate knowledge of
the country, of its legislation, and of its inhabitants.—
(Hear, hear.) I have said that the Board of Directors con-
sists at this time of thirty gentlemen—that is, including the
six who went out last year; and the fact is, that of these
thirty gentlemen—although there is no necessary qualifica-
tion except that of being the possessor of a certain amount
of stock—of these thirty gentlemen there are no less
than twenty-one in office at this moment, who have
served the Company with distinction in the various
branches of the civil service and who bring, conse-
quently to the discussion of Indian affairs tke whole of
their experience and knowledge with regard to the condi-
tion and requirements of that country. With regard to art
empire like India, it is a matter of infinite importance that
the controlling power should, as far as possible, be kept aloof
from political squabbles and party quarrels.—(Hear, hear.)
That object, as is well known, is practically obtained by the
system which now prevails; for, although undoubtedly there
may be, and there are, influences connected with the patron-
age of that depatment which may connect it in a certain way
with political considerations, yet it is notorious that, although
the politics of the Directors, some of whom have seats in the
Legislature, are of various shades, there is no political bear-
ing whatever influencing their conduct with respect to the
affairs of India. But is there no further advantage with re-
gard to the selection of those who are to form the civil ser-
vice of India? The civil service of India is a service alto-
gether apart. Be it the civil service or the military service
of India, it is a profession taken up at the earliest age; and,
to become qualified for that profession, to rise in that pro-
fession, to receive the honours of that profession, is the first
and early ambit ion of the youngest cadet or writer who goes
out to India. Now, there surely is a great advantage in this
respect with regard to India. 1 know, with regard to the
colonial administration, with which I was long familiar, how
great is the disadvantage arisingifrom the impossibility, within
the limited scale of each colony, of finding persons in the colony,
or connected with it, properly acquainted with the colony,
and able satisfactorily t 3 assist in conducting its affairs. But
the small; scale of each of these colonies—the small scale, com-
paratively speaking, even of the Colonial Department alto-
gether—independently of the widely different interests of
different colonies, precludes the possibility of setting aside
such a school for colonial service as is wisely and most bene-
ficially set aside by existing arrangements with regard to
the Indian service. Nor do I think it is a matter of any
complaint, a matter of any grievance, a matter to be de-
plored, much less condemned—nay, on the contrary, I
think it is the snbject of congratulation and rejoicing—if
we find a man who, at the age of 15 or 16, has entered the
East India Company's service, who has been himself edu-
cated for the special service of that company in establish-
ments maintained, and most liberally maintained—at the
expense of the company itself, whose fitness to enter upon
his duties has been tested by an examination, the strictness
of which has been much increased, before he was even per-
mitted to go out to the scene of his future life, who had
spent the best years of his life in India, who takes a deep
interest in the affairs of that country—though, like all Eng-
lishmen, he has always looked forward to the period when he
might return to this land, which he never ceases to con-
sider as his home,—who, upon his return, brings with him
Indian recollections and Indian interests, and can apply to
the administration of the affairs of India the knowledge and
experience which he has there acquired, while, at the same
time, he obtains personal distinction and reward for his past
services by a seat in the direction,—l consider that, so far
from its being cause of regret, it is a subject of congratula-
tion that there are the means of bringing forward within
this country a body of men so formed and constituted to
advise and assist the Government.—(Hear, tear.) It is
also a matter of congratulation and rejoicing that, at the
close of his life, each of the old and faithful servants of the
company has,
by the exercise of his patronage, the means of
introducing to the same honourable career, and launching
upon the same creditable course, his own son, or nephew, or
grandson, in whom may be instilled, from their earliest
years, a love for and an interest in India, and who may be
prepared to run the course which he who gives the appoint-
ment has honourably and creditably run before. There
must be, and always are, wherever you vast patronage, in-
dividual cases of it's abuse. But this I believe, that if by
holding out a premium—a most cheap premium—for the in-
valuable services of the men who serve you, I had almost
said, without any other reward, for I believe their service is
almost gratuitous—if you can obtain such advantages by
giving to those best qualified, from their knowledge of
India, to exercise patronage, the advantage of that patron-
age, it is for the service of this country and for the benefit
of India; and if those gentlemen do apply such patronage,
in some instances, to place in the Indian service those in
whom they have near and personal interest, I say that it is
not a corrupt exercise of patronage - (Hear, hear) —it is not
an exercise of patronage which ought to be deplored and
condemned, but, on the contrary, it is an exercise of patron-
age, as I believe, best calculated to promote the welfare
and advantage of India. This subject, however,
is one which your Lordships must consider, if
von consent to the appointment of this Committee.
'You will have to consider whether any modification should
be introduced in the existing system, and upon the part of
her Majesty's Government there will be no indisposition to
lay before the Committee, in the fullest detail, all the infer-
illation they may desire with regard to the working of the
existing machinery, whether in the political, in the judicial,
or in the social system of India, in order that your Lordships
may have the means of coming to a deliberate and impartial
decision upon that vast and momentous question—namely,
by what means, and by what instrumentality (remembering
that this is no party, no political question—it is a question
of empire), the great and important interests of that over-
whelming empire of India can best be promoted and most
steadily advanced. I will not further detain your Lordships
with any further expression of opinion on my own part, be-
cause I concur with the Noble Earl opposite in the caution
which he gave both to me and to my Right Hon. Friend at
the head of the department, that we should not hastily pledge
ourselves with regard to any specific course. I certainly en-
tertain a strong opinion as to the course of policy which it
may be desirable for Parliament to pursue, but that question
will rest is the hands of Parliament. By the reports of the
Committees of this and the other House of Parliament her
Majesty's Government are ready to be guided in the course
they. will pursue; and to those Committees must be deputed
the important task of considering how the affairs of India
shall heretifter be best conducted.—(Cheers
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observe that his Noble
d, .)
Friend had described with very general correctness the sys-
tem upon which the government of India was at present con-
ducted, The Noble Earl, at the commencement of his
before P
speech, had taken occasion to correct a very general error of
common parlance, by which the question nowar I'
ev
mentae described as being a question of the "renewal" of
afterwards
his Noble Friend, entering as he had done with
between
the East India Company's charter. He was surprised that
ler.
DY.great correctness into the relations the Court
of Ireetors and the Board of Control, bad not also avoided
the very general error in common parlance, by which the
ClllPanY was described as governing India. The Company
liamentary
might nominally reign, but the Company did not govern
Di-
rectors had, in point of fset, been no more than the council of
the Board of Control ; and what Parliament had now to con-
sider was, whether it was expedient still to continue that Par-
For about seventy years the Court of Di-
fiction, or whether it might
not be better to adopt
a more direct course for the government of India. He did
not know.whether his Noble Friend, who bad spoken of the
po-
sition ' •
htaiekhenildniato hhiasaconmsiaddeeratdiaonrietghe verythe
peculiar po-
on in which that The destruction of
country now stood..
the Seikh power had the position of India.
Before the deatruet* altogether changed
last twenty
and there was ion. of that power .
they had a greet rival,
t
every
reason to expect, at no distan day, a
most serious conflict for in India. That rival,
however, was n supremacy
in which Rome
uestrOyed, arid they stoop in the position
stood after destruction of Carthage,
twhen, all fear of rival • the .
in the field having been removed,
those evils began tooerat to the destruction of
public liberty, to the ruin Aerate led
and to the
I ultimate annihilation of the commonwealth, d
Lo 'empire, They had now arrived
'at a position when the 8 b d
:AY could not with safety go eyon
their prevent torritom •
unti, weed, in hie own.opuumi

I they had already in some quarters passed those limits. It
' was with much regret that ha looked to the possession of
Peshawar and of any country on the right bank of the
Indus, above Kalabagh, where the navigation of the Indus
from the sea ceased. He looked also with regret upon most
of the annexations obtained 20 years ago from the Court of
Ava, with the exception of the annexation of Arracan ; but
of this be was quite sure, that beyond their present terri-
torial limits it would ba the last proof of political insanity
to pass. The danger, in a military empire such as India
was and must ever remain, was greater far in the sta-
tionary than in the progressive state. His apprehensions
now arose from the insolence of office, which even in his
time had led to one insurrection, from disregard of military
duties, from the absence of due consideration for the native
,officers and troops, and, above all, from the forgetfulness of
that great principle by which their Indian empire had been
'acquired—respect for the religious
prejudices and for the
'social happiness of the people.—(Hear.) These were the
dangers of a stationary state, and were, in his opinion,
greater far than any danger they bad encountered in the
progressive state of the ample dominions which they now
possessed in India. When he came to consider what they
should do under these circumstances, and what alterations,
it any, they should make in the present system of the
government of India, he assumed with his Noble Friend
one point as absolutely settled seventy years ago
namely, that the patronage of India was severed for
ever from the Crown. He willingly acquiesced in that
as a settled point, because he believed it was equally
conducive to the advantage of this country and of India;
but, at the same time, he was of opinion that much might be
done by Parliament for the purpose of improving the admi-
nistration of patronage. He would at once distinctly declare
that in his opinion there was no object Parliament could have
admit another principle, though he did so
reluctance
in view so important as that of sending to India the very
best persons both for the military and the civil departments,
for their character was practically the Government of India.
lie
eth was
very wiclolinnsgidteoraabdlme
—namely, that it was ne-
cessary to continue the system of double government. He
did not approve of that system; he saw all ita.mischiefs ; he transaction of saw how directly it led to delay in the '
busi-
ness,w occasionally to very great embarrassment, and neces-
parity to great disregard of economy; but, above all that, it
involved practically a total absence of all real responsibility
on the part of the home authorities. He would only at the
present moment touch upon those organic changes which it
eeemed to him expedient to introduce for the purpose ot
'ending to the improved government of India. He admitted
that in the coarse of the last twenty years much had
been done. It would be hard indeed . if India alone
should not have shared in
the universal progress
of the world. But much remained to be done, and he
thought much might be done by the improvements he would
Suggest. Before, however, he touched upon the organic
changes he would desire to see introduced, he would shortly
state those alterations in the present law which it would be
expedient to introduce, even if they were prepared to main-
tain the Court of Directors and the Board of Control as
they now were, and to conduct the Government precisely
upon the principles upon which it now rested. 'He would
first suggest that it would be highly expedient that the
Board ot Control should have the same power over the home
treasury as they had over the treasury in India. At present
the Board had no such power. Whatever information the
Board of Control might have with respect to any intended
misappropriation of the public revenue of India, they were
powerless for the purpose of preventing it. He believed that
if the Court of Directors were to give an order to the Bank
to divide among them the whole
of the balance the Com-
pany might have there, the Board of Control had no power
whatever to prevent such a division. He would ask their
Lordships to look at the establishment of the East India
House, and compare it with the establishments of the Crown,
either with regard to numbers or emoluments. He believed
the number of persons employed at this moment at the
East India House was equal to the number employed in all
the departments of all the Secretaries of State. If, however,
they only looked at the emoluments these persons received,
he apprehended it would be found that there was a very wide
space for economical reductions. Such was the extrava-
gance of these,,emoluments, that he recollected being told,
more than 20 years ago, when he first went to the Board
of Control, that a gentleman, whose only recommendation
was that he bad written some very bad novels, which had
failed, but who had a sort of knack for writing, had been
employed by the court, at a salary of 2,0001. a year, to
write the controversial letters the court might have to ad-
dress to the Board of Control. For his (Lord Ellen-
borough's) part, he was charmed with the correspondence;
for, such were the literary abilities of this gentleman, that
his letters, especially When altered and amended by 24 other
gentlemen, did not interpose very great dittculties in the
way of the person who was called upon to answer them.
(A laugh.) He would further suggest that the audit of the
accounts of the East India Company should not be entirely
dependent upon themselves, but that an independent audi-
tor should be appointed by the Crown. He saw
no reason why the officer who held such an im.
portant situation should not be as independent as
the Noble Lord who was auditor of the Treasury. He
tfiought the duty of the auditor should be not merely to see
that there was authority for every payment, but that every
payment was, according to the strict appropriation in the
Act of Parliament, for the service of the government of
India. He did not hesitate to say that payments had been
made which were inconsistent with that appropriation, and
which, from his understanding of the Act of Parliament,
were illegal. Another alteration which he thought would
be productive of very great public advantage would be to
give to the Crown the absolute power of nominating the
Commanders-in-Chief of the army in India, and not merely
of the army of India, but of the armies of both the presi-
dencies. He would give the Crown the power of appointing
the Commanders-in-Chief of both the royal and the native
armies, and would suggest that they should (as we under-
stood) be ex-ogicio members of the Council. He knew of
one occasion—and there might be many—in which the East
India Company had prevented the appointment of the officer
who had been thought most fit in the judgment of the Crown
to command the army, and that was a power they ought
not to have. He thought it a great scandal and a great
abuse. lie recollected, too, that on anothor occasion
the most extraordinary—he might say, indeed, with-
out any imputation of using language too strong,
the most impudent—representations had been made
against the appointment of the late Earl of Dalhousie
to the command of the army, because, forsooth, the Chair-
man of the Court of Direetors, Mr. Astell, took a different
view of the Noble Lord's conduct when Governor of Lower
Canada from that which had been taken of it by Mr. Hus-
kisson, the Colonial Secretary. Now, he conceived that
those were representations which the Court of Directors
ought not to have power to make. Again, he remembered
another occasion on which representations had been made
to him against the appointment of a most pliant officer, ou
the ground that he was addicted to habits of drunkenness.
These representations were investigated, and proved to be
utterly false, and yet he (Lord Ellenborough) had, as repre-
sentative of the Crown, to make answer in reference to these
charges to the Board of Control. Such things, in his
opinion, ought not to be. And further, he thought it ab-
solutely necessary, especially under the present circum-
stances of India, which demanded, in order to insure its
safety, a very large increase of European troops, and a very
great diminution of the native forces, and that there
should be substitued for the civil nee
-ea, which was ut-
terly inefficient, a military police, who would perform
many of the duties now executed by the native soldier—
he said it was absolutely necessary that the Crown
should possess without any control on the part of
the Board of Directors the unrestricted power of sending
out as many of the regular troops as was thought fit.
At present the Crown could not send out more than 20,000
without the consent of the board, which was contrary to
reason and to public policy. inasmuch as the Crown was re-
sponsible for the safety of India, and on the Crown should rest
the decision of the number of troops to be maintained there.
He thought, also, it would be very expedient that the Crown
should possess the power of giving a negative in the appoint-
ment of members of the council.
He was far from saying
those gentlemen had not been properly appointed, but in the
new circumstances and position of the country it was most
expedient and necessary, in his judgment, that every mem-
ber of the militia as well as of the civil service should
look to the Crown as the source of honour and authority.—
( Rear, hear.) Ile did not propose any alteration should
take place in the mode of appointment of the Governor-
General. There were practical advantages in the present
arrangement, and under all the circumstances it secured
the best appointments. No doubt there had been occasions
on which toe Government had been inconveniently pressed by
the request of one of their own friends, whom they would not
wish to disoblige, while, at the same time they would be re-
luctant to trust the government of India into his hands. He
knew that there had been an occasion in which the intervention
of the Court of Directors had been found convenient to Go-
vernment in this respect, and, seeing g no practical inconve-
nience whatever in the present system, he should certainly
propose no alteration. But be expressed his opinion, and
to it he undoubtedly adhered, that the appointment not only
of the Governor-General, but of the governors of subordi-
nate provinces, and their continuance in office, should depend
upon the Crown. They might, with great advantage to the
country and to the service, improve the position of the
Governor-General, and increase his means of usefulness. by
placing him on such a footing that he should not be depend-
ent on two masters—that he should be no longer left in a
condition in which he was liable to be accused by the one,
and be recalled by the other. They might also greatly im-
prove his public usefulness, by improving the composition of
the council with which he acted, At present there was no
member of the Bombay or Madras services on the council ;
and yet Acts were sent from Bombay and Madras to the
Governor and Council, Which alone had legislative power;
and many measures were prepared by them with respect, to
which the Government of India was practically in darkness,
having no means of obtaining information about them. He
thought it would greatly conduce to the improvement of
legislation, and much assist the Governor-General in respect
to questions of this nature, if he had representatives of each
of those provinces in his council. He did not know that it
would be advisable to make any alteration in the law, or
in the practice by which the Governor-General of India
was nominated Governor of Bengal at the same time; but
he thought it would
highly conduciVe to the due dis-
charge of his public duties that the governor should divest
himself of the government of Bengal, and vest it in one of
his council. He really had not time, no matter what labours
he might take upon himself to discharge all the duties that
devolved upon him. His Noble Friend had spoken of the
provision of the Act of 1833, by which an extraordinary
member of the council was appointed. It had always ap-
peared to him that a great practical improvement might be
made in the selection of that individual. Hitherto he had
been on all occasions a member of the legal profession, and
as such the gentleman appointed considered himself to be
sent out as the legislator
of India, and from the day of his
arrival tO the day of his departure he used all his efforts to
alter the law, an to change the legislation of a great empire.
Now, even the moat enlightened British lawyer suddenly
thrown into the
midst of Calcutta was not the man most
qualified to devise those laws by which the people of India
were to be goterned. But by using that provision of 1833 in
a different manner tlsmight give great assistance to the Go-
vernor-General. He thouht the selection of a gentleman from
that grade out of which gentlemen were mostly taken for the
office of Under Secretary of State would be the greatest as-
sistance to the Governor and Council. Such a person would
be able to direct his fresh English mind to subjects
Pressed upon the Governor-General by individuals with
Indian prejudices, and, having a person of European reputa-
tion to consult with, it would be to the mind of the
Governor-General the greatest possible relief. He could
assure their Lordships there was nothing in India which
pressed so heavily on the Governor-General as having
no other mind to which he could have recourse, and
being obliged to do everything from his own thought
and will, without the tunity of obtaining any aid
opp or
whatever, in the formation of his projects. The Governor-
General might obtain facto, but he could not get opinions;
and there really was nothing more calculated to onnerve
a man than this constant pressure upon hie mental powers.
Enlarged as the council would be by the addition of the:
members from Bombay and Madras, it would on that ac-
count, if not on general grounds. be extremely desirable
that there should be no ambiguity with respect to the
privileges of the Governor-General, who overruled the
opinions of the council. He believed that by a somewhat
at:rained interpretation of the law, which it was alone tor
the Governor-General to make, he might now perhaps over.
rule the decision of the. concili but that WU a matter

which should not be left in any doubt whatever, and the
Governor-General should be enabled on all occasions to
exercise that power, because he alone was responsible for his
npinn n and for the result of his conduct. There was also
another matter which should be left without the smallest
ambiguity, and that was the power of the Governor-Gsneral
to leave his council and to proceed into the interior. Under
the law of 1833, that had been done by resolution of the
council, but in his opinion it was still in the power of the
Governor-General to leave his council and act in the pro-
vinces by virtue of the authority he had by the law previous
to 1833, as had been done by Lord Wellesley and others;
but the question was one of such extreme importance that it
should not be left till it was settled beyond all doubt. Per-
haps it might be advisable that he should say a word with
regard to a question which was much agitated in India, and
had been discussed at home—the change in the seat of Go-
vernment. He recollected very well in 1823 and 1830, when
it had been his duty to consider what measures should be
taken in that direction, having communicated with the Noble
'Nike (the Duke of Wellington), then at the head of the Go-
vernment, on the subject, and he considered the reason ng of
the Noble Duke for continuing the seat of Government at
Calcutta at that time perfectly unanswerable. He had been
asked, "Could not the Government be conducted from Simla ?"
Yes," he had answered," just as the Government of Rome
was conducted from Carthage, and with the same results."
The Noble Lord (the Earl of Derby) had left him nothing
to add in his description of the Court of Proprie-
tors. The 1,800 gentlemen who had votes in the Court re-
presented each their 1,0001. stock, and nothing else. They
had no other connexion with India, and had no more to do
with it than the proprietors of Bank or any other stock. He
saw from an inspection of the East India Register the Noble
Earl had somewhat overrated the number of native proprie-
tors in the Court. Omitting 335 with the letters " W. S."
after their names—which meant " widow" and "spinster"—
(Laughter) -and many gentlemen of the Jewish persuasion,
some of whom having purchased stock to a considerable ex-
tent had four votes each, he had endeavoured to see what the
proportion of persons really connected with India was to the
number of proprietors; and he feared that if he estimated
them at 300, or one-sixth of the whole, he would go to the
utmost possible extent. Now. let them consider not only the
composition of the Court of Proprietors, but the manner in
which the persons composing it were distributed, and how
they were under the influence of certain families and certain
firms. They would see the result was that certain families
and firms could practically decide the election of the direc-
tors; and, as the constituency was so very numerous and
scattered, no person desiring to be a director could gain ad-
mission to the board without hiving gone through the
most elaborate and most disagreeable canvass, extending
in general over a period of seven or eight years, and with-
out sustaining one defeat, or more. He remembered asking
a friend of his why he took so much trouble to be a director,
and the reply showed him the whole secret of the matter.
"Why," said he, " my friends have been supporting me so
long, they noW expect me to go on that I may do some-
thing for them in consequence of their long adherence to
me." In that answer their Lordships saw what was really
the whole Working of the system, And what were the
results? He wished he could think they were what his
Noble Friend stated. His Noble Friend said that twenty-one
out of the thirty directors were of distinction in the service
of India. Now, he (Lord Ellenborough) bad been ac-
quainted with the Indian service ever since 1828—his eye
had never been off it—and he had given more attention to
the names and persons engaged in it than most of their
Lordships, and probably than most other persons; but, on
referring to the list, 'he found there were only four out of
the thirty directors who had any Indian reputation. lie
did not mean, to say there were not many respectable persons
who, having been many Years on the directiOn, had ob-
tained in England a certain knowledge of Indian affairs,
but not one of them had been fit, when first appointed,
and, whatever their knowledge now, it gave them no
weight in India.' They might have made one voyage to
India, or have seen the country in a dauk journey, but, prac-
tically, they knew nothing of -India; no one could have any
confidence in their advice, and, when they adopted resolu-
tions, they had not that weight in India which would be
given to them if tbi court were really composed of Indians.
He ventured to propose to his Lordship that he should con-
sider whether it might not be expedient very materially to
extend the constituency by which the court was elected;
and he thought he could show the representative body would
be greatly improved by his suggestion. The directors of
the East India company—a commercial company in a state
of suspended animation—had no necessary connexion what-
ever with the government of India. lie would willingly
leave to the present proprietors of East India Stock, with
the power of giving proxies and their other privileges, the
right to vote for the election of directors. He would take
every precaution for the due transmission to England
of the necessary funds to pay interest on the stock and
bonds, bat the payment might be made by the Bank, just
as well as the payment of the Three per Cents. He thought,
however, it would be advisable and expedient that
Indian experience should intervene in the election of the
persons charged with .the' direCtion of Indian affairs; and,
with that object, he proposed that, in addition to the pro-
prietors of stock, all officers, civil or military, who had
served in' the native 'or European services; or the civil ser-
vice and coutts of law tor 10 years, should have votes for
the election of the directors. All the relations between the
Court of Directors and the Council of India would remain
the same as now, and no alteration would take place be-
tween the Court of Directors and the Board of Control, but
the Court itself would be elected by an enlarged constituency.
The addition thus made would be equal to the present num-
ber of the constituents, and, Considering the cumber of
retired officers, and thespersonson furlough, the elective body
would just be doubled. The constituency would be greatly
improved, as he thought, by receiving a thoroughly Indian
character, and by its being extended 'so much that personal
canvass would become impossible, and that persons desi-
rous of becoming directors might be elected, not after a
tedious delay, and on various grounds, bat on the score
of services, and at once, While their recollections of India
were fresh, and their faculties vigorous and unimpaired.
Another alteration he would 'suggest was, that the number
of members constituting the Court of Directors should be
reduced—from 24 to 12; riot that he meant to say that no
Cabinet Council consisting of 24 persons could by possibi-
lity transact business; or that no body of men exceeding 12
could with convenience transact business of a highly im-
portant, confidential, and political character. But he looked
in this alteration for that which he thought should be the
foundation of all their imp ovements —an improvement in
the administration of patronage. s If the patronage were
divided among twelve, instead of being distributed among
twenty-four, what would be the consequence? Their Lord-
ships might recollect what was said by Lord Bacon—that
"charity, when dispersed, hardly watered the ground where
it bad first been a pool ;" so patronage, when dispersed,
would hardly water the ground where it had first been
a pool. In this case there must be filled, not one pool
only, but thirty pools, before there could be an overflow of
patronage to be distributed among those who were deserving
of it for the services they had rendered. Some of those
pools were large indeed. He recollected ,looking over a list
of persons on whom patronage had been bestowed, and he
saw the names of fourteen gentlemen who all rejoiced in the
same surname, and which was exactly the same name as that
of one of the directors; and he had not the slightest doubt
that every one of them was a member of the same family.
It was not only that those persons who were entitled to
have this patronage exercised in their favour did not obtain
it, but by the present system on which it was dispensed the
relations of the 24 directors were scattered over the whole
face of India, which most materially interfered with the due
exercise of authority there. It was to enable those 12 per-
sons, with this much larger amount of patronage, to be dis-
tributed among those who deserved it, that he, among
other reasons, proposed the reduction sf the number of
the Court of Directors. He had sometimes read in the
newspapers accounts of the extraordinary liberality with
which Mr. This or Mr. That had given his patronage to the
son of this or that deserving officer. Now, be had seen a
great deal of those officers, and had often heard their com-
plaints, and the expression of their utter hopelessness of
obtaining the least favour from the directors for the benefit
of their families. He bad known them leave India in a
most desponding state of mind, because no provision was
made for their children. He recollected a most striking case.
It was that of an officer who had most ably distinguished
himself in General Sir George Pollock's army. He was an
officer on whom he ( the Earl of Ellenborough) had felt it
not only his duty but his privilege, as the Governor-General
of India, to confer honour. He recollected that officer
coming tolim and sayieg to him,—" I cannot get a cadet-
ship for my only son; all my desire is to get him into the
service; I have made applications to the directors, but
every one of them has been in vain ; and my son will now
soon be of that age 'in which he will hardly be able to get
a regiment in the Royal army." Such was the case of this
meritorious officer. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had
placed the case of this young man before his Noble Friend
the Noble Duke • and thus the case of the son of one of the
most deserving Officers in the company's service was at pre-
sent under the consideration of the Noble Duke, simply for
the purpose of being permitted to purchase a commission in
her Majesty's service, he having been unable to obtain an
appointment from any of the directors of the East India Com-
pany 1 What were the feelings of the father of that youth?
His desire was to send his son to the scene in which he him-
self had acted so long and so meritorious a part; but this he
was debarred from doing by the present system of the dis-
tribution of patronage. He (the Earl of Ellenborough)
trusted that the alteration which he proposed would obviate
that evil. Again, he could see no reason whatever why a pro-
portion of the cadetships, and a proportion of the writerships,
should not be saleable like commissions in her Majesty's army
at a fixed price. He could not understand why a practice
should exist by which the whole of the aristocracy of Eng-
land, almost without exception—be did not mean their
Lordships only, but all persons of the highest rank and for-
tune in the country, who did not happen to be acquainted
with a director of the East India Company—that they and
their sons should for ever be excluded from the most dis-
tinguished service to which any young man could aspire to
belong. It seemed to him to be a public wrong, and calcu-
lated to do great public mischief. But, happen what might,
he thought it most desirable that at least one-fourth of the
cadetships and writerships should be exposed to sale at a
fixed sum. Let him not omit to say that he thought it not
only highly expedient, but absolutely necessary,
_that the
Governor-General should have the power, or assigning his
reasons, of taking officers from military service and placing
them in the civil service of the Company. The total number
of all the civil servants in India was about 800. Those
gentlemen were generally the immediate relations and
friends of the directors of the Eaat India Company. They
went to India to rise in succession, and at last to exercise
the highest functions, whatever their fitness, in the govern-
ment of an empire containing, as his Noble Friend had stated,
150,000,000 of people. It was contrary to reason that those
800 young men so selected should be capable of exe-
cuting those important duties. He held with Lord Wil-
liam Bentinck,, who said that 800 angels could not per
form the functions of Government in India under such cir-
cumstances. It was preposterous. But if the Governor-
General had the power of selecting officers from the army to
become civil servants, he would be able to avail himself not
only of the services of those 800 persons, but of the services
of more than 5,000, every one of whom would be competent
to perform the duties required of him by the liovernment, he
having been destined for such an office. In point of fact
the best administrators of Government in India had been
mi-
litary men who had risen in that country by mean
having had intrusted to them the administration
of sof
con-
quered or ceded territories. He did not agree
with those
who thought that a portion of the cadetships and Writer-
ships should be offered as a reward to the
most distinguished
tared from books
scholars in the schools beloging to the Company' so on this ground, that then knowledgofethaocqs lie said
was of no use in India. The giving
stcoh boyso
olschools,
in the different schools might be of great useeretowatrhdes
but it would be of great disservice to India.—(Hear.)
If they had to select a boy to lead their troops under
difficulties, would they take the best scholar, the
most solitary bookworm the school or would they not_
rather choose' the boY who Was
Most remarkable
fluence over his schoolfellow for his in-
manage them ? There So and who keew best how to
which could be learned f
was nothing, he would repeat it,
fons books
man for situation in India. That which
that could qualify any
India, besides a knowledge was required' its
of languages, was an untiring in
busines, -
dustry and an aptitude for
public bus which few men
we re Practically found to possess
• but, above all, what was
required, was that which could not be gathered from books
fr—euelh detitiou of character, moral courage, fumutia ill
.. s

I the face of the public, and a determination, happen what
might to himself, to do his duty at once to the country of his
birth and also to the country of his adoption. Those were
the qualities they wanted in India, but they were not to be
met with merely among those who most distinguished
themselves at school. He confessed be felt a very deep in-
terest in the question then before their Lerdship& lie had
made India the subject of his earliest thoughts, and that now
for 21 years. He might, indeed, say that his whole public life
had practically been devoted to India. He would tell them
again that India had arrived at the most critical period
of its history—at one of those periods in the history of
a state in which it was absolutely necessary carefully to
look back and carefully to look forward, in order to as-
certain whether those measures and that policy which had
assisted, or at least had not impeded their progress, were
likely to be eqnal'y efficacious for the purpose of preventing
their fall. He felt satisfied that it was wholly on the spirit
in which the government of India was conducted, on the
temper in which its power was administered, on the consi-
deration with which they treeted, not the native army only,
but the whole of the native population, that it was on their
perseverance in, and adherence to, those principles, and on
their attention to the religion, and the prejudies, and the,
social habits of the people, by which hitherto their Govern-
ment in India had been permitted to exist,—.and it was on
these feelings and this conduct alone that that perilous em-
pire could be preserved. Perilous it was called by Lord
Wellesley at a very early period of his acquaintance with
India; much more perilous was it now. It was n.t one
which had its rots in the affections of the people. It had
not its roots in the perfection of its institutions. It
exhibited nothing to the people which they could un-
derstand, or admire, or love. He was made deeply
sensible of this even under the most favourable circum-
stances in which that Government could be presented to the
natives of India. He did, therefore, entreat his Noble Friend,
and he entreated their Lordships and the Parliament. when
considering what should be done in this great emergency,
and what constitution should be given to India for the pur-
pose of forming it, if they could, into an integral part of the
British empire (for he could not bear to consider it possible
that England should ever be separated from that country ; it
was not yet separated, and never could be, if the same
ability was used for preserving it as was used for obtaining
it)- but he entreated their Lordships, when considering
this great question, not to allow the mere matter of conve-
nience in carrying the measure through Parliament, or any
consideration of matters which ought to be below the
notice of high-minded statesmen when dealing with the
future happiness of a great people,—he entreated them not
to allow any considerations or feelings of that kind to pre•
vent them from doing that which was just by the people of
India, that which was just by the people of England, and
that which might make their name memorable for ever in
India, and establish their empire in the gratitude and
effeetions of the people of that country for real blessings
conferred.
The motion was then agreed to ; and
Oa the motion of the Earl of DERBY, the following
Noble Lords were nominated to the Committee, viz. :—The
Lord Privy Seal, the Marquis of Lansdowne. the Marquis
of Normanby, the Marquis of Tweeddale, the Duke of Mon-
trose, the Earl of Derby, Earl Grey, the Earl of Harrowby,
the Earl of Ellenborough, Earl Stradbreke, Earl Delawarre,
the Earl of Yowls, the Earl of Mansfield, the Earl of Carlisle,
the Earl of Albemarle, Viscount Hardinge, Viscount Gough,
Viscount Canning, the Bishop of Oxford, Lord Colchester,
Lord Broughton, the Duke of Argyll, Lord Ashburton, Lord
Colville, Lord Elpbinstone, Lord Glenelg, Lord Stanley of
+klderley, Lord Wodehouse, Lord Monteagle, the Marquis of
Sligo, and Lord Monteagle of Brandon.
On the motion of the Earl of LONSDALE, the Indemnity
Bill was read a second time.
GRANT TO THE COLLEGE OF MAYNOOTH.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE rose to ask the Noble Earl
the First Lord of the Treasury, whether her Majesty's Go-
vernment contemplated any change of policy with regard to
the maintenance of the College of Maynooth. The grant to
Maynooth College rested upon an annual vote in the miscel-
laneous estimates of about 8,0001. or 9,0001. until 1345, when
the vote was converted by Act of Parliament into a perma-
nent charge upon the consolidated fund. This measure ori-
ginated with a Government of which the Noble Earl (Derby)
was one of the most distinguished members. The subject
was very maturely and very deliberately considered. It oc-
cupied fourteen nights' debate in the House of Commons,
and five nights' debate in their Lordships' House. On the
third night in that House the last speaker was the Noble
Earl now at the head of her Majesty's Government. The
late Earl Charleville had, in the course of the debate, said
that the Government should not abuse his confidence, and
he reminded the Noble Earl that he (the Earl of Charle-
ville) was one of those who had placed him in power.
The Noble Earl, at that time sitting under another title in
that House, expressed the regret her Majesty's Ministers
would feel in losing the confidence of those who had called
that Government to rower, but that those considerations
would not weigh so much on the minds of the Government
as the still higher duty which they owed to their country
and their God. The Noble Earl closed that speech—a
Speech which occupied ten pages of Hansard—by calling
ripon the House, as statesmen and as Christians, to pass that
measure. He had mentioned this to show the deep interest
which was at that time felt by the Noble Earl on the subject
of the Maynooth grant. Under other circumstances he
should have considered the question of which he (the Earl of
Albemarle) had given notice to have been one of superero-
gation, if it had not been fur the suspicion which appeared to
have been conveyed to the public mind, and for the distrust
and uncertainty which prevailed concerning almost all the
measures contemplated by the present Government. Her
Majesty's Ministers seemed to want a fixity of purpose and
of principle. There seemed a tendency on their parts to
shift off the responsibility from their own shoulders, and to
leave all questions to be carried by agitation out of doors.
It was for this reason that he came forward to ask the
question of the Noble Earl. But perhaps it would have
been unnecessary for him to put the question, but
from the ambiguous and unsatisfactory answer which
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given to a
similar question in the other House of Parliament.
What he (the Earl of Albemarle) wished to elicit from the
Noble Earl was some distinct acknowledgment of his policy;
because it appeared to him that the question of the Maynooth
grant came under the same category as that of free trade in
corn.—(Laughter.) He considered they were both placed
up to a public bidding, and were to be knocked down to the
highest bidder. In the case of corn the question was put
to the Protectionists and Free-traders of this country ; and as
to the grant to Maynooth, it was put to the Catholics and
Protestants of Ireland. The one was an appeal to the En-
glish constituency, the other an appeal to the Irish consti-
tuency. But her Majesty'a Government would have some
difficulties to encounter on ,both questions. What said the
Secretary to the Treasury to his supporters? The report
stated that the speaker (meaning the Secretary to the Trea-
sury) then referred to his votes on the Maynooth grant, and
stated his determination in future to give his unqualfied op-
position to any grant to the Romiati Church that might be
proposed in any mode whatever, whenever, and by whom-
soever. He would ask the Noble Earl at the head of the
Government whether that was the language of a subordinate
or an insubordinate officer P —(Laughter.) The Noble Earl
concluded by putting his question.
The Earl of DERBY—The Noble Earl will excuse me if I
do not think it necessary to follow him in the reasons which
he has given for putting this question to use. I shall confine
myself simply to answering that question. I beg to state
to the Noble Earl that her Majesty's Government has no
present intention of proposing to Parliament any interference
with the Act which was passed to grant an endowment to
the College of Maynooth in the year 1845, The Noble Earl
must allow me to add, and I do it with great regret—that
the highly objectionable course which has been pursued by a
huge body of the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, and
the aggressive attitude which they of late years have taken,
have added materially to the difficulty of defending an en-
dowment which was intended for the purpose of maintaining
peace and goodwill, for the purpose of binding the clergy
of the Church of Rome to the State by ties of gratitude for
material assistance afforded them; gratitude for the good-
will shown towards them ; in short, for the purpose of bind-
ing them by the ties of loyalty, contentment, and peace-
fatness.—(hear, hear.)
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 2.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
PRIVATE BILLS.
The two following Bills were read a third time and
passed:—
Barnsley Gas Bill.
Bristol and Exter Railway (Yeovil Branch) Bill.
The following Bills were considered and ordered to
be engrossed:—
British Empire Mutual Life Assurance Company Bill.
Derby Gas Bill.
Lancaster Waterworks Cemetery and Gas Bill.
Medina River Navigation Bill.
METROPOLIS WATER BILL
Viscount EBRINGTON moved that the petition
of members of the Metropolitan Sanitary Asso-
ciation, being water consumers and ratepayers
within the metropolis, be referred to the Committee on
the Metropolis Water Supply Bill; and that it be an
instruction to the said Committee to beer the parties
who have signed the said petition, in pursuance of the
prayer thereof; and that the said petitioners be exempted
from the payment of fees. That the following Members
be added to the Committee on the said Bill:—Lord John
Manners, Sir J.Johnatone, Sir W. Clay, Mr. Mowatt, Mr.
Lushington, Mr. Cuchrene, and Viscount Ebrington.
The Noble Lord said if he consulted his own conveni-
ence he should take no further trouble in this matter,
but it was for the interest of the public that this motion
should be made; and with the consent of his colleagues
and declared
in the former Commission of Sewers he now brought the
subject again before the House.
thei inn ade
considerationi ast
ear
Mr. MO WATT seconded the motion.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN resisted it,
motion
wae
referred
e rhave
red beent
e
beforethat t h teh e subject
of a Select Committee. This motion,
late, and he, therefore, hoped the House fact, came too
would.not con-
sent to upset all that had yet been done •
.by the Committee of Selection and other in this matter
It was, however, for the House to or Corninittees.
took a different view to the Committ decide whether they if the Noble Lord persevered with the of
Selection, and
certainly divide upon it, e motion, he should
Lord SEYMOUR was also of
was intended to re-open a qil • opinion that the motion
estion which was settled last
year and he should therei
Mr. MO WATT said, ore oppose it.
all the PI *ttee did
,OMO2I last year
was to report against the Gand as it
overnment scheme, .
broke up before
shad closed its labours, owing to the
termination of the •
ession he was at a loss to under-
stand why the motionshould' beopposed. The motion,
in his opinion, was a
perfectlyreasonable proposition,
and until he heard stronger reasons against it
than
been some
b ld give it his support.
Mr.
had Yet urged he Bou .
E. DENISON opposed the motion, and de•
elated that the House would be guilty of an act of great
injustice if they agreed to it.
Lord J. MANNERS hoped the resolution would not
with, and then the House would have a
be persevered
chance of receiving an excellent and conclusive report
upon this water question before the close of the session.
After a few words from Viscount EBRINGTON the
motion was negatived without a division.
• PETITIONS. !

sir J. HOPE presented a petition against the May-
nootb grant.
Sir K. H. INGLIS presented a petitioa from Lincoln
College, praying to be exempted from the operation of
the Charitable Trusts Bill.
Lord MELGUND presented a petition from Glasgow
in favour of secular education.
Mr. B. SMITH presented a petition in favour of
ocean penny postage.
Mr. REYNOLDS presented two petitions from Lon-
donderry county, in favour of the Tenant Right Bill,
Mr. J. CLAY presented a petition from Hull against
the Charitable Trusts Aot,
Mr. 51AITORDRosent44 • peal= frODI
_ 11:1