The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-20 00:00:00

FRIDAY EVENING,

131PERIAL PA RLIAMEN T.

HOUSE OF LORDS. Feb. 19.
The LORD CHA.NCELL to..k his wat on the Woolsack
Fv ,'elock•

SALE OF GUVPOWDER TO THE K AFIRS.
Earl NI 1.14 VIESBURY said he had received a letter
from Ntessrs. Walt ,n and Bushell, stating, in reply to an
I..sertilo made in that Rouse, that though they had
ex-
•rterl gunpowder to the Cape of Good Hope, they were
utirely ignorant of its ultimate destination and use.
They expressed their horror at being supposed guilty of
knowingly telling ammunition and powder to the ene-
mies of the Queen, and declared that such was not the
'act, and that they would take precautions so as to
prevent a further supply passing from their hands to the
KArs.
PETITION OF JAMES HAMILTON STORY.
The Earl of EGLIN FON called the attention of

their Lordships to a petition from iane
etory, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal a
portion of an Act passed in 1804, relating to the Mont
emery estate, and moved that, the petition be referred
,0 two English judges for the purpose of obtaining their
report. He Considered that great injustice bad been
done to Mr. Story in depriving him of his ancestors'
estates in Ireland, and he trusted their Lordships would
not hesitate to accede to his motion. There were pre-
cedents for adopting the course be now proposed, be-
cause their Lordships had passed Bills to correct mis-
takes which hid occurred in previous Acts with regard
to the disposition of estates.
Lord REDESDALE opposed the motion, on the
ground that it was against the invariable practice of
the House to refer Irish Estate Bills to Irish Judges
eely. The Same practice was pursued with regard to
Estate Bills in England and Scotland, and he caw no
reason why it should now be departed from.
After a few words from Earl EGLIN PON,
Lord BROUGHAM said he ea a considerable irregu-
larity in referring the matter to the English Judges.
Re admitted there was great injustice in the case, but
too long a period had elapsed to allow the subject to be
now revived.
Lord BEAUMONT opposed the motion, which was
then withdrawn
THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH was ansieue again
to call the attention of the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne)
to a question he had put to the Government a night or
two ego with reeeect to the preparation of information
to be hid before the Committees on the East India Com-
pany's charter. It he had correctly understood the
Noble Marquis, he said that it would be for Parliament
and the Committees to ask for such information, and not
for the Government, in the first instance, to prepare it.
He should regret such a determination on the part of
the Government, in the first place, because it would
show that they were not alive to the peculiar importance
of the question to be submitted to Parliament—namele,
es to what the future government of India Aleut(' be;
and, secondly, because the absence of such information
would be the cause of great delay. Owing to the greet
difficulty of collecting retures, it was obvious that their
Lordships, if left to themselves, would be able to gather
bat a very slight amount of information, as compared
with the Government. Upon another topic he had un-
derstood the Noble Marquis ;9 say that it was only re-
eently he had ascertained whether certain other infor-
mation wee to be obtained at the Beard of Control or at
the India House. Now the papers were to be had at
both pieces, although the one board had the particular
letter in extenso. If the Noble Marquis had read
these letters he could have had no difficulty in
stating whether they could be laid on the table. The
Noble Marquis had treated it as a personal question
between him (the Earl of Elbnhorough) and the Court
01 Directors; but he (the Earl of Ellenborough) pro-
tested against such an assumption. Was the recall of
Sir H. Smith a personal question only ? He eas sure
the Noble Earl (Grey) did not so consider it, but
that he felt it to be s matter of the deepest public im-
portance; and if Sir H Smith were to send home a
dispatch, justifying his conduct, would the Noble Bed
feel himself justified in suppressing it? Surely not!
Surely such a course would be felt to have Yiolat.d the
plainest principles of justice. He (the Earl of Ellen-
borough) asked, therefore, in justice, not to himself
alone, but the great public interests involved iu the
relitiene between the Court of Directors and the Indian
Government, that the Noble Marquis
r,rqouisifshtohueldwhcoonlesecnotutldo
the production of those papers
not be produced, at all events such extracts as might be
thought, admissible of those communications which had
now been in the posseesion of the Court of Directors for
seven years? What he complained of was, that the
public kne* nothing of the real cause of his dismissal,
and, of course, had been left to infer anything they
liked. If, then, the Noble Marquis had no objection,
he (the Earl of Ellenborougl3) would move for several
documents, especially two letters he had written in de-
fence of the alterations he had made, and a minute of
his on a question of law with respect to the Council of
India.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it would be
competent for the Committee, if they thought they re-
quired further information beyond what would be sub-
mitted by the Government, to call for additional infor-
mation. With regard to the particular information con-
nected with the Noble Earl's recall, it was his desire to

Diu the Noble Earl full justice; and be by no moan.; in-
tended to imply that the question was merely a personal
one, and involving no public interest. On the contrary,
it was obvious that a question as to the recall of a go-
v,rnor or a commander-in-chief must be of the deepest
public interest and importance, and a fit subject for P2r
liameniary investigation and ii,quiry. He submit,ed,
however, that it was not convenient to make any epecilic
inquiry as to this matter, considered separately and by
It had taken plaee some eight years ago—it was

not thought fit by the Government- of the time to
produce any papers upon the subj, ct, and Parliament
had not called for an inquiry. And under these cir-
cumstances, and atter sueitessive Governments had
refused intormation on the matter, it was in,-xpedient
to institute an inciairy esp ciatly with reterence
o ir. But at the same time he quite agreed that
it might be considered as one of the events which had
marked the career of our Indian administration. and
illustrated the relations which had subsisted between
he Government and the Company, and that, th're-
core, it might bo convenistt,
along with any further in-
formation which might be exiled for by the Committee. to
urnish as much information as could be obtained with
respect to the r. call of the Noble Earl; and be (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) should be happy, after comma-
oicaltig with the Noble Earl, to do his utmost to pro-
m )te his object. He had r, cently had the opportunity
of reading such of the INtpers •as were at the Board of
Control, and he had done so with deep interest. Bet he
had to inform the Nub's
tb,tt one of the letters
which he (the &al of Ellenborough) deemed most ma-
terial, did pot exist either at the Board of Control or the
Est India House—the letter containing a lull exposi
tion of the motives and character of the Noble Earl's
conduct in India. That 1-tter, he repeated, was not to
he found in the records of the Government or of the
Company, and there was reason to believe that the
Nufrle Earl (R,P01,), who had been President of the
,30ard of Control at the time, had deeintal it so far pri-
vate as to justify him in taking it away with him when
he left the. India Board (an expression of astonishment
from the Earl of Ellenborough) Under these circum-
stances, whatever course the Noble Lord opposite in-
tended to adopt, he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) should
wish to communicate with him, and also with the Earl
of Ripon, with respect to the information it was de-ir-
able to produce. And he would undertake to commu-
nicate wits that Noble Earl (Ripon) upon the subject.
Meanwhile he hoped the Noble Earl opposite would not
for the present press any motion for papers, but would
reserve the subject for gener4l'cousideration before the
Committee.

The Earl or ELLENBOROUGH said he quite agreed
that the question of his recall should be considered in
conjunction with all the other great events which would
come before parliament in connexion with the adminis-
tration of Indian affairs. He desired to state, however,
that, by law, the Court of Directors had no power what-
ever or sendieg out to India any one single
syllable by
way of direction as to any measure whatever; and yet
they had most strangely continued to do so (a vestige of
a former state of things which had altogether legally
ceased to exist), and had the power of recalling, without
the consent of the Crown, the very officer whom the
Crown judged best fitted to carry into execution the
measures which by the Board of Control the directors
themselves might he compelled to adopt. So monstrous
an anomaly never could have existed in a proper sys-
tem of government. And surely the question whether
such a state of things should continue
ought to come
Before the Commi tee. Heailso thought that there ought,
at the same time, to be brought before them the infor-
mation as to the manner in which this power of recall
had been exercised in his own t use. ut
Yrarliatueet be unanimous in t pdrovieg of ihe exercise
of it in hie case, his opinion would be unaltered, that
the general question should be considered—woe her
ihe power of deciding upon measures to be
adopted should be vested in one body, and the
power of recalling the man appointed to carry them
•B, i veo a nu d "
eut be vested in another? With regard to the state.
ment of the Noble Marquis, that a most important let.
er which he (the Earl of Elenhorough) had written,
was not to be found at the Board of Control, be had
heard that statement with the utmost astontshm“nt. It
was true that he had written it after receiving the order
for his recall ; hut it was a vindication of his coneuct
previous to his recall, while he was in a high public eta-
tien, and it wren undoubtedly 3 public document. Would
any Minister dream of preventing Sir H. Smith from
putting before the country
iu an official form his vindi-
cation of his conduct, in answer to the dispatch of the
Noble Earl opposite conveying his recall? Surely not.
And he must confess be had viewed with indignation
the attempt welch had been made at that time to make
it appear that this letter was a private our. It was a
public document, written by a public man, upon a most
important public measure ; and as such ought to have
been considered. And he had received a promise that
it should be considered. He could show the Noble
Marquis a letter from Earl Ripon. communicating en
i xtraet fri in that letter, and be (the &el vi El-
leubototigb) had, in consequence of en inquiry
he had wade at the Board of Control, ueen
assured that, although only an extract had been in-
cluded in that communication, yet the wbofr,. zn
extols° should he recorded. He considered,
he removal of the document as a great aggravation f
therefore,
he
the injustice with which he bad been treated;
re-
peated that he had always considered the
that it
public one, and had received an assurance it
be considered as such.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE
the appointment of
intimated that on
this day se'nnight he would move
the Committee,
said that he sh old
then make some observations on the present system 4,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH
the Government of India, assuming that the Court of
Directors was retained with powers similar to what they
now possessed.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he did not, for
his part, desire to anticipate the discu,,sion of the subj.ot,
but rather wished that the whole subject sh uld go to
the Committee on th•:. part of the Government unfettered
y any opinion; and that it should not be until after the
Committee .hould have made their inquiry, and pro-
nourxed their judgment, that Parliament shoul, be called
upon to come to any deci,ion.
The Earl of ELLEN BOROUGH said he lisd thought
thtit hi.. slit -nonce ou Indian affairs might be useful to
their Lordships

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he hoped, at
all events, other Noble Lords, not having the advantage
of such experience, would not imitate the Noble Earl's
example.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observed that, about
40 years ago, L+-rd Grenville thought the earliest pos-
sible expression of his opinions upon the subject of im-
portance, and stated them before any question had come
before' the House.

COUNTY COURTS ACT EXTENSION BILL.
L)rd BROUGHAM moved the order of the day for
the coromitt,e upon this Bill.

Lord LYNDHURST rose to state a case of great
hardship which had arisen under the existing Act. A
tradesman sued in the county court for a small bill
amounting to 51., and recovered that sum and also the
15s. allowed for costs under the Act; and which he paid
to the attorney he had employed; and so far was satis-
fied with the result. But a day or two afteraards the
attorney sent him in a Bill for further costs, amounting
to 221 Of course the client was astounded, arid raked
what this meant, as the attorney had received the costa
allowed under the Act. The anseer of the attorney was
" Those were the costs allowed under the Act. for the
proceedings in court. The costs I now claim are the costs
incurred out of court for preparing the case, getting up
evidence, and so on." This explanation was not satisfac-
tory to the plaintiff in the suit, who consequently refused
to pay. The case came before a judge of the courts of
law at Westminster, where a learned judge, whose keen-
ness of vision was most remarkable, declared upon look-
ing at the Act that the attorney was quite right in his
construction of it; and that though he had received the
amount the Act allowed for costs in court, there was
nothing to preclude his recovering a further sum for
costs out of c ,urt. The result was that the attorney re-
covered the bill, though it was taxed down to 11/ 144.,
which his client, the successful suitor, had to pay ; so
that the suitor recovered 5/. at a cost•of nearly 131., and
was about 81. out of pocket.—(Laughter and hear, hear.)
This, however, was not all. If he had sued in the supe-
rior courts of Westminster he could have recovered this
sum from the other party, the defendant; and it was
most just and reasonable that he who lied refused to pay
a ju-t demand should pay the cost of the proceedings re-
sorted to to enforce it.—(Hear, hear.) But according
to this county courts system, the successful suitor, or the
plaintiff who recovered the debt, hal to pay all the costs
of recovering it except the stuall sum of ISa. Seidl a
system at eseed 8 inconsistent with the plainest princi-
ples of justice, that be had deemed it his duty to state
the case with a view to the grievance being remedied.—
(Hear. hear.) He bad no doubt the construction put
upon the Act had surprised those who had drawn it up,
and that they had not anticipated atico an evil; but it
bad nevertheless arisen.
Lord 13ROUG HA NI concurred in the latter observa-
tion ; adding that it was nut at all unusual for judicial
constructions to be put upon Acts 01 Parliament which
the framers of them never had expected. He must say
however, that the whole subject ofcosts was one of :he
most difficult and the most hard to deal with that could
be, conceived.
Lord LYNDHURST did not at all wish to insinuate
that the decisions of the courts of Westminster Hall had
not been quite correct. The Court of Queen's Bench
and the Court of Common Pleas had both so decided.
Lord CA MPBELL said he did not think that his
Noble and Learned Friend would commit such a mis-
take as to censure any decision of the courts of law,
from which an appeal lay to their Lordships as the
last resort. In the d• cision alluded to he had concurred,
and defied any one to come to any other upon the words
of the Act. The meaning of the legislature could of
course only be arrived at from the language the legis-
lature bad employed.—(Hear, hear.) In his judgment,
and that of the two Courts of Queen's Bench and Com-
mon Pleas, the restriction is the Ac applied only to
costs in court, and not to costs of proceedings out
.of
oourt. He certainly thought the subject should be recon-
sidered by the Legislature ; but it was one which would
be found involved in great difficulty, and in which, if
care were not taken, serious injury might easily be done
to the suitor.—(Hear, hear.) Iu many cases it was es-
sential to employ attorneys of respectability and ability
to make investigation, look into long accounts, and so
on; and no one could expect that till this could he done
by such practitioners for so paltry a sum as 15s.—
(Hear, hear.) The result, therefore, of restricting the
entire cost receivable to so small an amount would be to
deprive the suitors of the assistance of respectable and
able practitioners, which was oftea requisite for the pur-
poses of jus,ic-i —(Hear, hear.)
Lord LYNDHURST repeated that he did not intend
to dispute the validity of the decision, although at first
there had been doubt upon the point—the Queen's anch
deciding one way, and the Court of Common Pleas the
other. _ _

Lord CAMPBELL said the Queen's Bench had after-
wards reversed tilt it decision arid concurred with the
Common Pleas in tip. construction he had stated.

Lord LYNDAURST said he quite agreed with his
Noble and L arned Friend that it was often ;I quisite to
employ able and reste-c'able attorneys in the county
courts; but what he complained of was that if such at-
torneys were employe d the cost 01 so employing them
did not tali on the party who ought to pay—namely. the
di fondant who had resislA a just demand.—(t.lear.)
The Earl of DER3Y said it seemed to be agreed
upon that the costs in legal cases stn,uld ba reduced, and
the object of the former County Courts Bill clearly was
10 limit the amount of the expenses, and thereby induce
the suitor to go to an economical court. That was the
inducement ,_even, and it was supposed that they had
gained that advantage by limiting the amount of the
costs. It would now appei.r that this was as unecono-
mical a process as before, and he considered that that
was doing a great injustice to the suitor. The attorney,
it now appeared, might charge any amount of costs he
pleased to the plaintiff.
Lord (3 A M ['BE 1.14—.8 it the costs must be taxA•
.The Eirt of DERBY.—The evil and the injustice
were that the plaintiff, who would be entitled to receive
his c.)st, in a superior court, was not entitled by this
interpretation to receive them in the canal courts. 11l
the superior court these costs were thrown upon the
defendant who was proved to be in the wrong. They
were now considering the propriety of extending the
jurisdiction of those courts, and surely that was a biting
time, before that extrusion was given, to remedy whit,
was an acknowledged evil.—(Hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM doubted the propriety of intro-
ducing gueh an amendment in the present Bill. It was
a measure not to extend the power or jurisdiction of the
county courts, but merely to enable ihe court of Chan-
cery to send certain causes (lowa to these courts which
otherwise would be coosidered in the MAst..r's office.
The Mirculia of LANSDO A 7 NE thought wheu they
were considering the jurisdiction of these courts would
be the right time to tiaktivi the alteration.
L Ord CRANWORTH thought the case was s imewha,
difficult to deal with, laud admitted that it was a .sandal
to justice that the defendant by whose wrong the action
was brought should not be made to pay the costs. There
were, however, many costs which should not be thrown
upon the defendant, which might have arisen from the
plaintiff's default.
Lord CANIPBELL—The Bill was not only for the
extension, but also for the improvement, of these courts,
and the equitable arrangement of these courts would un-
doubtedly be an improvement.
The Earl of DERRY certainly thought it would be
advisable to introduce a clause to explain what the in-
tentions of the Legislature were, and not leave the
public open to fraud and deception. He was satisfied
that if they allowed the present Bill to pass without
dealing with the question of costs, it would be long be-
fore they would have so favourable an opportunity of
doing so again.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM—And the public out of doors
will believe that you have very little desire to amend the
law if you do not do it now.
Lord BROUGHAM had no objection to postpone the
third reading till the early part or next week, in order
that he might have time to consider the question.
Earl GREY said it seemed to him that it would be
more advisable to postpone the report than the third
reading. As a general rule it was highly inconvenient
to introduce clauses on the third reading, and it was the
more necessary as he understood there would be some
difficulty in framing a clause. On these grounds, and
with a view to the general regularity of their proced-
ings, he thought the report ought to be postponed.
Lord BROUGLIA.I4 was disp..sed to concur in what
had fallen from the Noble Earl. He should, therefore,
adjourn the further consideration of the report until he
bail hat' an opportunity of considering the question.
The further consideration of the report was then post-
poned.

LAW OF PATENTS. •
Llrd LYNDiIUttS I`, in presenting a petition from
certain parries, praying for an amendment of the law
regul.ting patents, observed, that under the 818 of last
year a prot,ction W4S grant, d to patente,a for a li-
mited period, and if the Bill for the amendment of the
patent law was not introduced before the expiro ation of
the term of that protection, those parties wuld be
under the re cessity of incurring all the expense of the
present law for the protection of their inventions. He
hoped, therefore, no time would be lost' in introducing
that m,asu,e. lie understood his Noble and Learned
Friend (Lord Brougham) had a Btll noon the suh.pet
similar to :hat of last session, an 1 the Noble Inrd
sVo
ri Crty- Pwr ea ss i coat t on f htis"p., aße eia hd a ofd
lia
e u
'sror
fiaadgm'':vea.wstueti rdoewhfhoeertwhther
..•.„,ngernent
a:
amendment of the patent 13w.
it would not be expedi-nt to come to some
reeptetiog those two Bills.
- Tne Earl art MINTO underAtood from his Noble
Friend the Vice-President of the B
the Bill as all but ready, and Board 4,f Trade that
*v
table very s,orly, would bc laid upon the
Lord BitOUGEAM presented
ebester on the - j sat).ect u petition from Man-
Their Lordships then
ad.foUrn, d.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 19.
The SPEAKER took the Chair, at Four o'clock.
PETI LIONS.
EWART presented a petition, from a place in
Scotland, praying for an alteration in the vagrancy !Awe.
Mr. 4:)UNCOMI}E presented a petition from Fins-
bury against the removal, ti the Crystal Palace.
Mr. R. PALMER presented a petition from a place
in Berkshire agatmc toe Maynooth grant.
Mr. GEACII presented a petition from
Manche!Vr
lgainst the ManchiNter and Salford Educati,n Bill.
Mr. ROCHE presented two petitions fromes
Bill. Cork,
prai ing for the repeal of the Ecclesiastical
: the post'
Several petitieue were presented opals
horse duty.

Mr. SCULLY presented several petitions from Tip-
perary, praying for the repeal of the Ecclesiastical 'fitios
Bid, and in favour of tenant-right,

THE BOROUGH OF HARWICH.
Sir R IT WILLOUGHBY corrected an impression
which had got abroad that be h.d stated that he once
representtql the borough of Flit. wich, and bAitved no
brib9ry had taken place there at .-1, etion.. The fact was
he had never either chre .tly or indirectly tiw a c,nri,-cted
with the borough, and wai unable to say whether bib, ry
existed at elections. What he said was, that he had
been on the Committee which sat to inquire into the
petition against the return for Elarwich, and knew that in
consequence of the disturbance at the elm ion, no bribery
was committed on that particular occasion.
STEAM TO NEWFOUNDLAND.

In reply to Mr. B. COCHRANE,
Mr. F. PEEL stated that the Legislature of New-
foundland had voted an annual grant of 1,0001. for seven
years, towards the establishment of a direct steam
communication between this country and that co-
lony, and a memorial had been sent to the
Imperial Treasury for an additional grant of 5,000/.
a year for the same purpose. The first point for con-
sideration was whether such an expenditure was ju.ti-
fi,d. kll the correspond,oce and information on the
subject had been ret<•rred to the Treasury, and the
matter was at present under consideration.
IRISH MEASURES.

In reply to Mr. GR kCE,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said nn Bill was in prepara-
tion for the amendment of the Irish poor-hw.
In reply to finorher vestion from Mr. KEOGH,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said the Irish R-form Bill
and the Irish Health of Towns Bill were at present in
the hands of the printer, and be expected to be able to
lay them en the table of the House syn.
__ FATE OF THE CRYSTAL PALACE. _

Mr. T. DUNCOVERE d what proceedings had
been taken by the Government in cony-pence of the
address of the House with regard to the Great ExhNi-
tion building. Since the building had ben advertised
for sal,. there were conaiderable apprehensions in the
public mind rhat it would not be allowed ro remain.

Lord SEYMOUR slid in cons. (pence of the resolution
of the House. the Treasury appointed a Commission
consisting of himself and two other persons to take
evidence upon the matter, and to report thereon to the
Treasury. They had completed the inquiry, and the
report had gone into the Treasury.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE inquired of the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government when the report
would be laid on the table, or whether he would give an
assurance that no step would be taken in the matter
until the House had an opportunity of expressing an
opinion as to the continuance or removal of the building.

Lord J. RUSSELL said be would give an answer in
a day or two.

IRISH VALUATION.

Mr. SCULLY WAVE, notice that on the 4th of March
fp+ should call the attention of the House to the press, nt
system of valuation in Ireland, and move the appoint-
ment of a SelectCommi,tee on thy- subject.