The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-10 00:00:00

(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord has on several occasions
dilated on the wisdom of settling great question% in
!Dements of comparative calm and tranquillity. I think, as
a general principle, that is a wise course; but care should
be taker., in dealing with what may require alteration in the
comm onwaalth, to introdube nothing that is calculated to
excite the passions of great masses of the community.—
( Hear, hear.) It is in the moment of tracquillity, when
passions are not excited and interests are tranquil, that
you should come forward and deal with those interests; but
you are bound to deal with them in such a manner al will not
unnecessarily provoke discussion, so that the settlement may
be—l will not say final, for that is not a term to be used in
human affairs—but such a one as is calculated to be perma-
nent.—(Hear. hear.) So far as I can now form a hasty
opinion, I cannot say that I think the measure ;brought for-
ward by the Noble Lord a very statesmanlike measure. The
Noble Lord says that the 101. householders are in a certain
sense to be disfranchised, and that we are to have 51.
householders on the register. What is the great object of
the Si. franchise? That you should admit the workiug
classes to the exercise of the suffrage. I have always been
the advocate of an industrial suffrage • but I am not satis-
fied that this 5/. franchise will act in that way. lam not to
be persuaded that there was no measure better fitted for
this purpose, no arrangement more apposite and more
calculated to complete this end, than merely lowering
the rating of the rent on which the suffrage de-
pends.—(Hear, hear.) I have here a paper moved for some
years ago by the Hon. Member for Marylebone, which con-
tains a list of the boroughs, with their populations and con-
stituencies, in England. I was anxious to find out the sixty-
seven boroughs, with which the Noble Lord means to deal in
this Bill, and I commenced with the list before me. I began
with Caine; went through what I supposed must be the
sixty-seven boroughs, assuming from the smallness of the
constituencies that those I selected must be the sixty-seven
places which the Noble Lord wishes to disturb. Then,
having exhausted the sixty-seven boroughs, I proceeded
through the list, taking those that, from the number of their
constituencies, I presumed must be exempted from the ope-
ration of the Noble Lord's Bill—those above 500. The first
borough I found on the exempted list was St. Albans.—
(Laughter.) I only mention this to show that in settling
this question we have a great many details to consider. The
merit of a measure like the present depends very much on
its details, and that is the reason why, when a Minister
makes a proposition of this nature, and is not prepared to
lay his Bill on the table —a very strange occurrence cer-
tainly—l think the country have a right to expect that
ample time will be given to consider those details.—
(Hear, hear.) I have thus expressed what I really feel
on the matter. I feel, so far as the two tests I have
referred to go, that I am not prepared on those grounds to
oppose the Bill of the Noble Lord. Upon the greater ground
I reserve my opinion. I have great hesitation as to the
propriety of introducing this measure at all. I have great
doubts whether it is a measure deep enough and compre-
hensive enough'. to deal with a question the Minister has
himself voluntarily raised.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord
ought well to consider that it is of the utmost importance
that questions of this kind should be very maturely consi-
dered before they are decided upon—that it is of the greatest
importance that all measures for the adjustment and ar-
rangement of the suffrage should be of a permanent cha-
racter. The Noble Lord is the last Minister who ought to
doubt the correctness of that principle. I say very frankly
to the Noble Lord that I do not think it is to the credit of
this country, of this House, or of himself as a statesman,
that every year he should alter the franchise of Ireland.
(Hear, and laughter.) I think if the Noble Lord had only
pondered on those subjects a little longer he would have
hardly been in the singular position of having brought for-
ward a Reform Bill only twelve months ago for the kingdom
of Ireland, and now confessing that that measure is perfectly
inadequate to its objects.—(Hear, hear.) I hope it is not
ominous of the measure the Noble Lord is now bringing
forward. I think it will be just as well if gentlemen
on the other side of the House, who exert
themselves to the utmost to get a measure brought
forward, should thoroughly consider what that measure is.
Gentlemen opposite have had experience on this subject.
They received with enthusiasm the Bill of 1832. They de-
nounced everybody who opposed it, and expected that it
would in every respect answer the purpose. Bat they have
lived to find out their mistake, and they should so far profit
from the past, and receive—l will not say with suspicion,
but without passion —the present measure of the Minister.
—;Hear, hear.) Let them remember we are at the c )m-
-mencement of the session, and that we have much to do
with other measures.—(Hear, bear.) Let not Government
allow Parliamentary Reform to divert their attention from
other reforms.—(Hear, hear.) Depend upon it that what-
ever you give with regard to the extension of the franchise,
the great body of the people will not be satisfied if the
greater part or the session is occupied with Parliamentary
reform.--(Hear, hear.) The people out of doors wish to
see the whole question of our colonial government entered
into. They wish to see the principles on which our system
of taxation is established inquired into. The people out of
doors have some anxiety to know whether there will be
legal reform or not.—( Hear, hear.) These questions will
require considerable attention and very laborious amend-
ment of details, and these are reasons why we should not
approach this subject, thrown into our hands so early in the
session. We should try to ascertain what the time requires,
think carefully whether this change be required by the
people, and whether the proposition of the Government is
one of that nature that is calculated to satisfy the country
when obtained.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY had listened, as he always did, with the
deepest attention to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down, and he must confess he was unable to
discover whether he was to be numbered among the sup-
porters or the opponents of the Bill. From some previous
observations it might be implied that he would have been
very glad if an extension of the suffrage had been submitted
by the Government; and now, when an outline of the pro-
posed measure had been given by his Noble Friend, he stated
that to the principle laid down by his Noble Friend he did
not see any objection. Then he asked for a month's delay,
in order that the minute details of the Bill might be consi-
dered by the country and the House. Now, the details of
the measure were questions essentially for the Committee—
such, for example, as whether one borough should be joined
with another, or not. He hoped, therefore, the House would
not consent to the delay proposed by the Honourable
Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with him that
other subjects of great importance would come under the
attention of Paaliament ; and the way to get them before
Parliament would be to have no delay in proceeding
with the Bill now before the House.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Gentleman said it was a very unusual occurrence not to
lay a Bill before the House on the night on which leave was
given to bring it in ; but he believed he was wholly mistaken
as to the precedents in this matter. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Stamford asked a question as to the day
fixed for the second reading; and his Noble Friend in reply
gave a full fortnight, not between the present time and the
second reading, but from the time when the Bill would be in
their hands. Such a period he did not think at all unrea-
sonable. The Hon. Gentleman hinted something about
manoeuvres and tricks with reference to the arrangements
under the Bill, and founded that suspicion on what he said
had notoriously taken place with the Reform Bill of 1832.
What the circumstances were to which the Hon. Gentleman
referred he knew not ; but, if any steps were taken by Minis-
ters that could be called in question, ample opportunities
would be given of stating objections when they considered
the details of the measure.—(Hear, hear.) What he asked
was, that if there were objections to the Bill they should be
manfully stated by its opponents, and that there should be
no attempts to defeat the measure by postponing it till a late
period of the session.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
seemed to speak as if the extension of the franchise to 51.
would have the effect of disfranchising 101. householders.
Mr. DISRAELI—I did not say so.
Sir G. GREY understood the Hon. Member to say so, but
of course if he disclaimed the statement he would make no
remarks upon the subject. The Hon. Gentleman referred to
St. Albans, and read from an old return, which did not ap-
ply to the present state of the constituency of that borough.
He believed, however, that the present state of the consti-
tuency of St. Albans fell within the number which his
Noble Friend had stated as the point within which he pro-
posed boroughs to be dealt with.—(Hear, hear.) In conclu-
sion, he hoped the House would not grant the delay asked
for by the Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir B. HALL said, in previous sessions the Government
had been charged with not bringing forward a measure of
reform, and now the Gentlemen opposite came forward and
said the Noble Lord was too hasty in his proposal, and was
about to cause unnecessary excitement among the people.
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire
called upon the Noble Lord to postpone the Bill for an inde-
finite time—one of the most monstrous propositions he ever
heard.—( Hear.) As the Right Hon. Gentleman had shown,
the material points to be considered were matters of detail,
and they would naturally fall to be considered in Commit-
tee. The Hon. Gentleman opposite said the Bill ought to
have been laid on the table of the House. The Hon. Gen-
tleman was not a Member of the House when the first Re-
form Bill was introduced; but he could tell him that his
Noble Friend was now acting in the sams way as he then
did. On the 10th of March leave was given to bring in the
first Reform Bill, and it was read a first time on the 14th of
March.—(Hear.) That was the very course now proposed
to be taken. Then, when was it read a second time? It
was a measure of much greater importance than the pre-
sent, and yet only seven days after that Bill was brought
into the House the Noble Lord moved that it be read a se-
cond time.—( Hear.) And now, when they had been calling
for reform for years, the Hon. Gentleman opposite got up
and asked that it should be postponed for a whole month I
—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had made use of strong
language with reference to the boundaries of boroughs. The
Hon. Gentleman talked of manoeuvres and proceedings
having taken place in fixing the boundaries in 1832, but
who was the principal party to those manoeuvres ? Lord
Stanley, of whom the Hon. Gentleman was now a follower.
That Noble Lord was one of the principal parties concerned
in the Reform Bill ; he took a most active part as to the
boundaries of the boroughs; and now the Hon. Gentlem.an
taunted the Noble Lord at the head of the Government with
with
regard used discreditable manoeuvres and proceedings
regard to them.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman ought to
recollect with whom he was associated before he cast such
reflections upon his Noble Friend.—( Hear, and a laugh .)
But when he talked of this not being a full and comprehen-
sivemeasure, he (Sir B. Hall) with him. It was not
oin his sense, nor perhaps in that of the Hon. Gentleman,
be-
cause he thought the Hon. Gentleman had been in fav_ourHoef
the ballot and triennial Parliaments.—(A lia )u h
wished those questions had been introduced into it. It would
b he
have made it much fuller and more comprehe
ort at
of the
doubted whether it would have now had the sup,
Hon. Gentleman bpposite.—(Hear.)He must,of the Government
congratulate his Noble Friend at the head however,
on one sign of the times: —that whereas dlB3l—
and he was a Member of the House
stage of the Bill was fought:—he atn tlhBa3to time—everyan
division of the House at a quarter past astether—now there was
remembered, indeed, a
seven in the morning,
and they had 16 or 17 divisions a tog
to be no division.—(Hear.) Hon.
dared not in the face of their constituents
opposite
tin And when the Hon. ents vote against this
Bill being introduced.—(He s
Gentle-
man taunted the Liberal Reformers with voting for this
Bill, did he suppose they :wild le for? They meant to dod vote against it because it
did not give them all they w
nothing of the sort; they would take
more.—(Hear,
oarle.—
all they
tir, hear,ceoauldge get andmmove amendments and try and g
laughter.) He agreed with the Noble Lord in one respect,
that it would be extremely wrong to continue the very small
boroughs. Some papers which he had moved for, and
which, he believed, would be before the House in a day or
two, would illustrate his objec lions on that point. Probably
there would be a schedule attached to theßill,ttnd if there
were the first borough in the schedule beginning with the
letter A should be Arundel, widuhniptysvoofuldmotvhiennge
gti vh
t thaton.
Gentlemen opposite the oppi)rl
town should no longer send Members to Parliament.
(Some Hon. Member suggested that Abingdon came before
Arundel.) Well, whether it wtze Abingdon or Arundel, he
would give Hon.ar Gentlemen the
;
same opportunity.—(Hear.)
For his own pt,
he feared tlaat the scheme of the Noble
Lord, in congregating together towns, would place the coun-
ty constituencies more in the hands of the landlords, and
give the landlords more power over their tenants than at pre-
sent; and they might rely on it, that it would come to that
which Earl Grey spoke of in the House of Lords,—they must
have the ballot to protect the people.—(Hear.) He thought
they ought to have a Reform Bill based on the principle of
the former one—of enfranehi§ement and disfranchisement,