The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-08 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 7.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
LAW OF EVIDENCE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Lord LYNDHURST, with reference to this Bill,
stated that having communicated with the law authorities
of Scotland, who were desirous of securing some further
evidence as to the manner in which the late alterations
in the law of evidence worked in England, he should not,
therefore, at present persevere in the motion of which he
had given notice, to insert certain words in the Bill,
with a view to extending the whole of these alterations
to the law of Scotland.
Lord BROUGHAM approved of the postponement of
the Noble Lord's motion for the present session, but he
hoped it would not be understood that the Scotch
lawyers were opposed to the principles of the alteration;
they merely wished to have a little more insight into its
working in this country.
Lord CAMPBELL said he hoped to see the whole of
these alterations introduced into the Scotch law during
the next sessioD.
After a few words from Lord DlaetTo and Lord LYND.
HURST the subject dropped.
PETITIONS.
Lord BROUGHAM presented petitions from the
Chamber of Commerce at Norwich and other places in
favour of the Patent Law Amendment Bill; from St.
Andrew's, praying to be exempted from the Burghs
(Scotland) Bill; from articled clerks of a place in York-
shire, praying to be allowed to practise in county,courts;
and from an individual, praying for copyhold enfran-
ehisement.
Lord CRANWORTH presented a petition praying
for copyhold enfranchisement.
CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL.
At the request of the Earl of DERBY,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE agreed that this. Bill
should be read a second time to-morrow, pro forma, and
that the discussion on it should be taken on going into
Committee on Monday next.
The Earl of DERBY gave notice that, supposing the
Militia Bill were brought up from the other House to-
night or to-morrow night, he should propose the second
reading on to-morrow (Tuesday) week.
BURGHS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
• On the motion of the Earl of MINTO, the report on
this Bill, with amendments, was received and agreed to.
The Earl of ELLESMERE presented a petition from
the inhabitants of Manchester on the subject of the
present system of poor-relief, and praying for the in-
troduction of a system of productive labour for paupers.
The, petition referred to a subject of great, magnitude and
importance, and he wished to call the attention of the
House and the Government to the feet that the desire
expressed in the petition was largely entertained by the
country. He did not wish, however, to be considered as
supporting the views of the petitioners.
Lord MONTEAGLE said the question was very po-
pular with those who only viewed one side of the sub-
ject. He objected to turning the poor-law unions into a
great
rt m a
few
sort of manufactories, as unjust to the honest, industri-
ous, and self-supporting labourers, who by such a system
would be exposed to unjust competition with persons who
must at any rate be supported.• The partial adoption of
ther sftyt
e e
had depreciated the wages of labour in this
metropolis to a very great and unnatural extent.
words from the Earl of DONOUGH-
MORE, which were inaudible in the gallery,
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
THE PROPOSED HALIFAX AND QUEBEC

RAILWAY.

Earl GREY rose, pursuant to notice,to ask the Under
Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it was the
intention of her Majesty's Government to lay on the
table of the-House any further correspondence relating
to the proposed construction of a railway between Hali-
fax and Quebec. In asking the question of which he
had given notice, he would only say a few words in ex-
planation. Their Lordships would remember that mach
interest had been taken in the subject of the proposed
construction of a railway from Halifax to Quebec. Some
years ago,
when the Noble Earl opposite filled the office
of Colonial Secretary, he received addresses from the
colonies .on the subject, and officers of the royal
engineers were appointed to explore the country and re-
port as to the line they might think best for the con-
struction of the railway. That report was received
in 1848, when it was his (Earl Grey's) duty
to transmit it to the governors of the colonies
affected by it. In the spring of 1849 Lord Elgin,
the Governor of Canada, sent certain resolutions
of the executive council of that colony to him pro-
posing that the great work contemplated should be un-
dertaken on certain terms by this country. That pro-
posal was very liberal, and he had no doubt that it would
have met with the concurrence • of the other two pro-
vinces, but at the same time the adoption of that mea-
sure would have involved the expenditure of a large sum
of money by this country; and at that time, looking to
the financial condition of this country, it was not con-
sidered advisable by the Government that the measure
should be assented to; accordingly, with considerable
reluctance, the proposal was declined. In the autumn of
the following year the Lieutenant-Governor of Nova
Scotia (Sir John Harvey) deputed to this country a
member of the Executive Council (Mr. Howe), with
whom he (Earl Grey) had frequent communications.
That gentleman proposed that a loan on behalf of the
province of Nova Scotia of 800,0001. should be
raised by the province with a guarantee by this
country, which would enable it to be raised at a
lower rate of interest. The assistance asked for was
the credit of this country only, not the advance of the
money. That proposal was considered by himself and
his colleagues as exceedingly reasonable, and accord-
ingly in March, last year, intimation was given to Lord
Elgin, and to the Lieutenant-Governors of Nova Scotia
and New Brunswick that if the three provinces would
divide among themselves the expense of constructing
this railway. and would undertake to execute the work,
the Government would recommend to Parliament that
perrt.; b
the guarantee of the British Treasury should be given,
which would effect a saving of 2f.per cent. in the rate
of
province,utwith
the
unassisted,
guaranteect o d obtainof the
Btrhie
money .
tish Treasury, at 3i per cent. The dispatches contain-
ing this decision were sent over in March, 1851; and in
making this statement to
a interest.
t 6 Thec e
the governors, he informed
them that her Majesty's Government did not insist that
the line recommended by Major Robinson should be
adopted; but all they insisted on was that it should be a
line passing entirely through British territories, and that
any deviation from Major Robinson's line ahoud be sub-
ject to the approval of the Government. Since that date,
various communications had taken place; and shortly
before leaving office he had received an intimation that
the assemblies of the three provinces had agreed upon
the principle on which the expense of constructing this
great work should he divided among them. At the same
time, it was quite a different line from that which Major
Robinson recommended should be adopted. He had
been informed that Mr. Mucks, a member of the Legis-
live Council of Canada, Mr. Challoner, a member of the
Legislative Council of New Brunswick, and Mr. Howes,
as the representative of Nova Scotia, would be sent
to this country to communicate with the Govern-
ment, end to ascertain whether the proposal would
be acceded to. To this communication he answered,
that while he regretted Major Robinson's line bad
not been adopted, the Government would be quite
prepared to consider as to sanctioning the line now
proposed ; and he was sanguine that that would
have led to the construction of that great national work.
The establishment of a railway communication between
the three provinces on British territory was an object of
the very highest national importance.--(Hear, hear.)
Without that, the permanence of their connexion was ex-
tremely problematical. It was therefore with great dis-
appointment he had learnt, from an answer reported to
have been given in the other House of Parliament, that
the communication between her Majesty's present ad-
visers and the very able and intelligent gentlemen who
came from the colonies had not led to a satisfaotory re-
sult, and not only
that the proposal had been rejected,
but rejected in a manner which, judging from a letter
that had appeared in the papers, had given rise to feel-
ings of great
excitement- and would render it improbable
that the communication could ever be established. As
from the answer given in the other House it appeared the
negotiation was brought to an end, he hoped the whole
correspondence Would be laid at an early date on the
table of that House. He was sure it was a subject which
well deserved The
attention of their Lordships, and ought
to receive it at the earliest
said
moment.
The Earl of
e,ERBY said as he bad for several years
taken a very deep p interest in the successful conclusion of
the negotiation for connecting by railway the three Bri-
tish provinces, he would answer the question and state-
ment of the Noble Earl opposite, although the question
had been add Noble Lord behind him (Lord
Colchester), as
to the
"ter), as belonging to his department,-though it
was by no means a question of colonial interest only.—
(Clear, hear.) The Noble Earl bad made two charges
against the Government—first, as to the substance of the
negotiation being broken off; and next as to the manner
in which it had been' broken off. He would deal with
the last charge He had certainly read with some
surprise
n
the etter referred to by the Noble Earl, dated
Ist of -ay, from Mr. Hincks. That gentleman com-
plained that the deputation bad been kept waiting fur
about seven weeks 'Without being able to get any definite
answer on the subject on which they were in attendance,
and said that it would be impossible for them to make
much longer delay. Mr. Hinoks had arrived in this
M
country on the 15th or 16th of arch • he had frequent
interviews with the head of the Colonial Department
(Sir J. Pakington); but Mr. Challoner, the representa-
tive of New Brunswick, had not then arrived, and Mr.
Eicswea had not yet arrived. Mr. Challoner did not
arrive till about the 15th of April; and on the 20th
either he or Mr. Hineks bad an interview with
Lord Colchester at the Colonial office. That Noble
Lord, being newly in office, had not -had his at-
tention previously called to the matter. Between the
20th and 26th he (Lord Derby) received a letter from
Mr. Mocks stating what had passed at the Colonial-
office, and requesting an early interview; and this was
the memorandum he had made for his private secretary:
—" Give him an early appointment, the matter is one
eof
very great importance; bat I should wish, if possible,
to see together with Mr. Mucks the representatives on
this matter of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia." He
and Sir S. Pakington saw Mr. Hincks and Mr. Challoner
on the 30th of April. He then learnt for the first time
that the Legislatures of the different provinces had
passed Bills in favour of this scheme; those Bills had
not been received by the Colonial department, and had
only been in possession of the deputation twenty-four
hours. He also learnt for the first time that the inten-
tion was to deviate very considerably from a line which
it was most desirable should be taken; and the deviation
was to such an extent, that though literally and really
wirs within British- territory, it might jusLas well
have been on United States territory, for any desirable'
purpose thet it would fulfil. Sir J. Pakington stated in
very strong terms, his disappointment at the line vary-
ing so much from that of Major Robinson, and that
that must weigh_ very materially in Ray tiegibi9u

of the Government. Ho was, therefore, a little sur-
prised, having stated to Mr. Hincks and Mr. Challoner
that the whole subject should be brought immediately
under the consideration of the Government, that ho
himself would" explain the papers and communicate
them to his colleagues, and that they would take the
earliest possible opportunity of signifying their decision
—this having taken place on the 30th of April—to find
the letter the Noble Earl had adverted to in the papers
dated on the following morning. In that letter Mr.
Hincks said—" In the interview we had yesterday we
were given to understand by his Lordship that he would
examine the various papers on the subject of the rail-
way, and would see us again after the arrival of Mr.
Howes from Nova Scotia. I left his Lordship in the confi-
dent hope that we should receive an early communication
of the intentions of her Majesty's Government." Such was
certainly his intention; but Mr. Hincks having had an
interview with him at three o'clock on Thursday, tho
30th of April, he could hardly-suppose the Government
would be able to give him an intimation of their inten-
tion before the following morning, when that letter was
written.—(Hear, hear.)
.He added, tlat from what had
passed in the House of Commons on the same evening,
he felt it his duty to the province, whose interests were
intrusted to his care, to explain frankly to the Govern-
ment that it would be quite impossible for Canada to
continue any longer a negotiation which had already in-
volved her in much trouble, and which would materially
retard other arrangements that might be made for the
construction of the railway. After this, he would ask
their Lordships candidly on which side was the obstruc-
tion—on the part of the representatives of Canada
or on the part of the Government. He (Mr. Hincks)
went on to.. say that he had not been sent to
i England as an humble suitor, and he most respect-
fully requested a -final answer by the 15th inst., when,
if the Government were unable, either from want of
time, or the necessity of consulting Parliament, to come
to a decision by that period, he begged it to be under-
stood that Canada withdrew from the present negotia-
tion, aid he should deem it his duty to enter into ar-
rangements which would put it out of the power of the
provinces to negotiate on the present basis. He (Lord
Derby) had every respect for the representatives of Ca-
nada, New_Brunswick, and Nova Scotia; but when a
plan was laid before the Government involving an ex-
penditure of seven millions, which they were asked to
guarantee, 'it was somewhat too much for a gentleman
to use ;the terms contained in that• letter, and say that
Canada would withdraw from an arrangement from
whieh, it and the British provinces were to derive the
greatest benefit.—(Hear, hear.) Though a little sur-
prise& at the tone of this letter, he (Lord Derby) had
not (Inferred executing the promise he had made to Mr.
Hinckh. He had brought the matter before a Cabinet
Counqil, at which it was fully and deliberately
discusied; and it was with great regret they had
come to the conclusion that it was not to the admin.
vents eof the provinces that they should sanction the
i propo ed line, inasmuch as it forfeited the very main ad-
yenta es which led them in the first instance to be anxi-
ous *its promotion. That communication was made
to M 4 Hincks about the 16th or 17th of the same month.
Sir JJ Pakington had considered it the most respectful
course to write his dispatches first to the governors of
the colonies, and then to communicate them to the repre-
sente,Oves of the colonies in this country. In the mean-
time,'on the 13th, he (Lord Derby) had received an ap-
plicaiion from another society, who were desirous of en
grafting a scheme of emigration on the general scheme
of the railway known to be in contemplation by the Go-
vernment; and on the 15th he gave an answer, thee from
recent communications great doubts had arisen whether
the negotiations pending between the Government and
the ciolonial legislatures were likely to lead to the con-
struction of the railway in, question; and it appeared that
the Colonial deputies had first learned from the secretary
to this society that the plan was not approved by the
Government. As far as personal respect was concerned,
nothing could have been more cordial and attentive than
Sir 4. Pakington's treatment of these gentlemen. lie
received them at his own house; gave them invitations
to her Majesty's ball, invited them to dinner, and con-
stantly saw them on the same terms as the Secretary of
State would have received any Ministers accredited from
foreign powers. As to the substance of the negotiation,
he would say that the Government had been most anxie
ions to see it carried out; and he had been active in
pressing it on the late Government. Bat he thought a
better course than giving a guarantee would have been
to make a grant of the waste lands through which the
line passed. He meant not to say that the . guarantee
would not have been redeemed by the provinces, though
the contribution might have pressed very hard on the
province of New Brunswick. Nevertheless, ho had been
quite willing to leave the construction of the line to the
colonial Legislatures, giving the desired guarantee, pro-
vided it was so constructed, as to secure those advantages
which were promised from it. The Noble Earl admitted
that it was a sine qua non that the line should be car-
ried through British territory. It was not a slight de-
viation that was now proposed. Bat the great object was
in oonnection with the scheme of emigration, to have
opened up a large tract of country in New Brunswick
available for emigrants ; but this had been lost sight of.
(Here the Noble Earl described the course of the line, as
originally proposed, and the deviations, which could
only be understood by reference to a plan.) Major Ro-
binson's line, he observed, had always been taken ai the
basis of a negotiation ; but the proposed line, instead of
making the circuit of the northern and eastern coast,
made two right angles, passed by St. John's, and was
carried farther to the west. It was true that by this
scheme there would be a less length of railway to be
constructed ; but Major Robinson's line would
not involve a greater distance between Halifax and
Qeebec. The line by St. John's might offer greater
commercial advantages, but it abandoned the scheme of
opening up New Brunswick to emigrants. The
St. John's line, for nearly its whole length, ran
within a few miles of the United States territory, and
there was no security that it would not pass on the
United States side of the St. John's River. Such a rail-
way, in an open undefended country, would not differ in
the least, in the event of war, from a_raiway carried
through the United States territory.
rt-e(dLI ftirat ,
es hear.)
It
tended far more to open up the United
off
than
the
British territory; and in some, parts it by the
rapid torrent of the St. John a giver from communica-
tion with the British territory. Under these circum-
stances the Government did not think the project one
which so 'carried out imperial objects as to justify them
in giving a guarantee for the proposed
hhd_ave undertaken
expenditure by
the colonial leg isitlreee.tilionsuting Parliament would
w
have been highlylegislatures.—(Hear.) T
such a liabilityviatiibu
improper, and he doubted whether Par-
liament would have sanctioned it. However much he
might prefer the plan of granting waste lands, he would
not have hesitated to recommend a guarantee
-had the
line been such as to securee thosehad re
roettheerradn.d
Omaorethiemee-
portant„ objects to which he
grounds the Government bad thought it their duty to
inform the governors of the provinces that they were
compelled, with regret, to refuse the guarantee, believing
that the line did not promote really and truly British
objects. The Government had nothing to conceal, and
production of the
there would be no opposition to the
papers.—(Hear, hear.)
Earl GREY said he had not meant to bring any charge
for the abandonment against the Governmenthathe Noble Lord of the
project. After w had said, he would
add a few words to the_ negotiation. Having formerly
had much communication with Mr. Hincks, he had
always found him frank and straightforward in all his
dealings; and it was to be regretted that two persons
of such weight and station in the province as Mr.
Hincks and Mr. Challoner should have learned the
decision of the Government from a subordinate officer.
It was only a short lime since the Emigration Commis-
sioners had thought it necessary to put an advertisement
into the
papers, cautioning the public not to listen to
schemes put forth :by
this person without adequate
authority ; but he (the Noble Earl) was quite ready
to admit that the manner in which the decision of the
Government had been communicated to the delegates
had been the result of accident. The really important
point in tho matter, however, was that a line of railway
communication should be established in the British ter-
ritory.. No doubt the line of Major Robinson would
have been infinitely preferable in many respects; but as
the railway would have to be constructed by the colo-
nists themselves, with the assistance only of the credit
of this country, it was but natural that they should pre-
fer the line which offered the greatest commercial ad-
vantages.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that it would
have swallowed up the whole of the surplus revenue of
the colony; but he thought that, directly and indirectly,
the returns of the railway would have* covered the in-
tereet.—(Hear, hear.) On the 20th of February, he
(Earl Grey) had hurriedly written to Lord Elgin, on
the eve of the departure of the mail, stating that it
had not been possible for him to consult his col-
leagues, but that, as far as his own opinion went,
though he greatly preferred Major Robinson's line,
it would be better that the line which the pro-
vinces had been with auch great difficulty brought to
agree to should be made, rather than that there should
be no railway at all.=-(Hear.) The line of the colonists
would certainly be more insecure in case of war; but in
the time of peace it would have offered us tho great ad-
vantage of an independent mail, as well as great facilities
for the conveyance of our troops.—(hear.) With re-
spect to the papers, ho should certainly prefer to move
for their production.
Earl FITZWILLIAM looked on the question of whe-
ther any offence had been. given to the delegates as a
matter of little importance compared with that of whether
there should be a line of railway from one of ' the At-
lantic ports to connect the provinces of Lower and
Upper Canada, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia. He
very much regretted the course which her Majesty's
Government had thought it right to pursue; because the
Federal Government of the United States gave great
encouragement to such projects, and he should greatly
deprecate anything that would lead the colonists to
draw an unfavourable contrast between the conduct of
the mother country and of the United States.—(Hear).
The question of annexation was already discussed iu
Canada, and though he was far from thinking that it
was at all in the ascendancy, yet the subject was ono
that half a century ago could nut have been broached in
the colony.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, therefore, that
it was very undesirable to thwart the opirdon of the co-
lony; and, besides, whatever line should be chosen, it
would beopen to the objection of being near the Ame-
rican frontier. The line along the valley of 'the St.
Lawrence would be within only twenty-five miles from
the northern frontier of the United States.
The Earl of DERBY—But the line of the St. John
would pass within three miles of the frontier.—(Hear.)
Earl FITZ WILLIAM—At all events, the objection
was only one of amount, and he very much doubted
whether the one railway would be much more securenino
the case of war than the other.—(Hear,
hearl.le) idea
should think in a matter of very great reg
should be created in the provincial mind trheat.ti;hie•ge.l.isiins.
of the colony were disregarded, or treated as ?_farl.l slight 1.7_
pertance; and he trusted that the Noble
eu is future
head of the Government would so shop Au
i