The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-04 00:00:00

"s-,se-sessssess„sse,esssssts-sssss-ss-sysess-s-ss.
ItTartssist inforaastion, which were now paid out of it..
h the exception of last year, there had not been since
1822 60 small a sum voted tor secret service. The Ron.
Baronet mast bear in mind the great increase of the re-
,,tions of hat countrs with ail parts of the worn?, and
Vcie multiplication of oil these CatlsPS which, required in-
ten:laden to be obtained. That being the case, the
country had no right to lock with suspicion on the vote
for secret service. In a country of the great power and
secret
of England much less was expended for
_scret service than in many of the large states f Europe
17,ilimerica, and that, he thought, was rather a cause for
_7! 'congratulation as indicating the stability of their in-
stitutions. In addition to what he had stated, it must he
toent;
.oned that not a single shilling could be expended
eceePt under the warrant of a Secretary of State. Every
Secretary.,, was personally responsible for the money ex-
pended the
in his department; and, looking at the smallness
Issre Sum, the importance of the service, the manner in
---,Leh it was expended, and the vouchers fired at the
Audit-office, with the securities for good administration
ereby insured, he could not think the vote could be
looked upon with suspicion.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said it was the nature of a
Chancellor of the Exchequer to expend money, and his
objections were not removed by what the Right Hon.
Gentleman had stated.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, on
the
Contrary, the duty of a Chancellor of the Exchequer
(1:48, t° oppose the expenditure of money as tar 04 he
coal
laugh.)
Mr. SCULLY did not think any account was required,
1!,8 they all know how the money was expended. He
-"Id ask seriously whether it was the practice of the
Present Government to expend money in the payment
?f editors of newspaper in Ireland? The public and the
Irish Members certainly had a right to expect that that
should not be done again, although it was said to have
been expended in the cause of " law and order."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no
rsitation in assuring the Hon. Member that her Ma-
Jesty's present Government had no intention of making
any investment of that sort in the cause of " law and
order."—(A laugh.) He appreciated probably as much
as anybody in that House could the influence of the
Press, but he had always observed this, that no newspa-
Per whose support was worth having could bo obtained
by the employment of corrupt means.—(Hear hear.)
Mr. MACGREGOR understood that those payments
to the Irish newspapers were made, not out of the pub-
lic money, but out of the Lord-Lieutenant's private
Purse.--(No, no.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS said, out of whatever fund
it was expended, there could be no doubt that it was ex-
pended for the good of Ireland.—(Oh, and cries of
"No.") That he believed was the general opinion.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 216,5091. for stationery, printing, and
binding for the various public offices.
Sir G. PECHELL objected to the large amount of the
vote. In the dockyards ships were pulled to pieces for
the sake of rebuilding them, and in the poor-law office
there was far too much scribbling in constant corres-
pondence.
Mr. G. HAMILTON said there bad been careful
eci?°co in the statione deartment; the vote had been
losinnlibyhing every year.r—y Vo p
te agreed to.
B,_The next vote was 21,000/. for law charges, salaries,
s'• in the office of Solicitor of the Treasury.—
..c.:reed to.
d The next vote was 17,7001. for sheriff's expenses, the
eticiencies of fees, and office of Queen's Remembrancer,
--Agreed to.
Ihe next vote was 8,830/. for expenses of Insolvent
Debtors' Courts.
M. WILLIAMS suggested that the duties of these
01,1„1.:ts should be discharged by the county court judges.
,pte agreed to.
landoe next vote was 121,163/. for law expenses in Scot

decal' COWAN observed upon the item for procurators
that it had increased instead of diminished,
w°ugh they were now paid by fixed salary, which it
Pettl:ss ought would have the effect of decreasing the ex-
e Mr' A. HAMILTON said the salaries had been
nttimated G.
on an average of five years' fees, and the
u,rangetnent only took effect after the present holders of
ekeffiee vacated; it was entirely prospective.
r• WILLIAMS remarked on an item of 1,000/. for
yle.e..tiejt Bills, of which only five had been brought into
,""anaent last year. This was a small item, but the
tll6!rweg,tite of such items. caused an increase of 40,0001. on
pest vote over last year's estimate. There was a
A. dispa o between this and the corresponding
vote folreland
Mr 0, •
A. HAMILTON said the supposed increase
,its °ly apparent. As to the item of 1,0001, the result
thetLe arrangement had been a payment of 17,0001. to
....Consoidated Fund.
parlr. WILLIAMS said this only showed that less was
this year for doing nothing.
vote agreed to.
presne next vote was 57,710/. for expenses for criminal
meentions and other law charges in Ireland.
tureenLLIA.MS again observed on the disparity be.
said tPYni I
vote and the last, although more crime was
to exist in Ireland.
The
agreed to.
iithue next vote was 36,5001. for the metropolitan police
üblin
WILLIAMSthe ~• animadverted upon this vote, and
piiidvr°Portion of the expenses of the force which was
mrout of the local rates.
ag G. 11411ILTON explained, and the vote was
eed to.
ter! h e next vote was 240,0001. for certain charges for-
TIT PEdd out of the county rates.—Agreed to.
of eprisonst vote was 16,196/. for expenses of inspectors
so det YVILLIAMS observed that the estimate was not
smalladed as it ought to be. He also observed on the
stance Produce of the labours of the prisoners. For in-
oh! tin Milbank, the net amount of profits was
the 1/
P Per head, whereas in America the produce of
brlatircips Qners labour paid all the expenses and left a
Ur. SI, A Ni
far more --EY remarked that free labour was worth
—ore ie America.
wrr
Q.„."-LLIA.MS—No, it is not.
the • L."-JANEY Said the difficulty was in preventing
free prisoner labour from coming into competition with
sir glabour.—(iiper.)
.WRITEY thought that in the prisons, the
th,:tiLment of prisoners was not sufficiently severe, so
objeeP4_rpties often rather desired to be sent there. The
thi of prisons was to deter from crime, but how would.
ooject be .
of prisons? attained if persons were not at all afraid
thMr. SCULLY said, on the contrary, ho considered
great object of prisons was not punishment, but
f sea great
; and this object was carried out wonder-
-211137 on the Continent, so that prisoners left the prisons
'efortned and improved, and seldom revisited them. It
Was on this ground desirable to encourage the useful
eroployment of the prisoners, especially the younger
oal-a.

Mr. ANSTEY said he found that the expense of
gaols were alarmingly on the increase. Some time ago
!t Committee had been appointed, the report of which
had, however, produced no practical result, but which
Proved why the expense of prisons increased. The fault
lay principally with the magistrates, who too easily,
Ott signs of " moral improvement," dispensed with the
Punishments imposed. Some limit should be placed by
imv on this power of the magistracy. Wherever the
moral improvement system had been followed to the
Po rejudice of prison discipline, expenses of gaols had
creased.
Mr• PA.CKE said that in his own country the refer-
tmatory
hat witrkr;inciple had been successfully carried out, and
once-,11 the last six or eight years criminals, having
eiade their appearance, rarely made their appear-
titer, a sPeond time.
_ .SLANEY deprecated the employment of prison
workhouse ialemir at rates of remuneration which
displaced independent labour.
Sir W.
JOLLIFFE remarked that the increase ob-
servable in the estimate was to be ascribed to the in-
eviLeassed difficulty experienced in disposing of our con-
„
'!et ; but there was every reason to anticipate the sue-
eaqul Working of the new system.
, Sir
LP r C. BURRELL defended the putting of prisoners
etuunerative employment.
_ Captain SCOBELL was of opinion that if the refer-
:eatery system was to be made effective it would be no-
essarY to make the prison diet less attractive. At
Present the food supplied in some of our prisons was
superior to that enjoyed by the independent labourer.
C MJ. BELL took the same view; and after a brief
°tlversation,
c,?'ir. STANFORD deprecated the leniency shown to
;I"luinals in the Reading and other model prisons, but
:.:fended their employment at their trades on the ground
4that it lessened the local rates.
,The vote was then agreed to.
„ uu the vote of 261,522/. to defray the charges of Go-
'ernment prisons and convict establishments at home,
ANSTEY expressed his belief that the punish-
blent of transportation had proved a failure, the more
Pecially since the discovery of the Australian gold
Mr. SLANEY said that the Government ought to
Consider carefully the C 1111503 which had led to the im-
-lense increase of criminals in this country. In 1805, the
Lumber of persons in England and Wales committed to
gaol or admitted to bail, was 4,600; in 1815, it was
7,800; in 1821, it
was 16,500; in 1831, itin
184 19,600;n
1841, it was 27,740; and in 1848, it was 30,300. Crime
bad thus increased three times
as fast a 3 their popu-
lation. The Government ought to look to the improve-
ment of the minds of Youth, also of those of the working
classes, and the protection of their health in great towns.
The vote was then agreed to.
159,1231. was granted for defraying the expenses
r:tttending the maintenance of prisoners in county gaols,
)31 philanthropic institutions, and in lunatic asylums, and
the expenses attending the removal of convicts.
101,0411, was granted to defray the expenses connected
With the transportation of convicts.
253,5871. was then proposed to defray the expenses of
Convict establishments in the colonies.
Mr. ANSTEY complained of this vote being 70,0001.
More than it was last year.
Sir W. JOLIFFE said that the increase in the vote
was Caused by the new convict establishments which had
been formed in Western Australia.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained that the cost for con-
Western Australia was four times what it was
In this country.
Sir J. PAKING TON explained that the increased
e'fit arose by the present being the first year of the es-
tnablishment in Western Australia, which was built for
larger number of convicts than at present occupied it;
Out thut expense would of course bo diminished in suc-
"ding years.
The vote was then agreed to, as also was 160,0001. for
Public education.
On the vote of 52,3431, for the salaries and Expenses
of the British Museum
°llt
Mr. WlLLlAMScoLiplained that the vote wastaken
of its order