The Sun.
London, England, 1864-06-04 00:00:00

RAILWAY COMPANIES.

Lord STANLEY moved that so much of the standing
order 142 as prohibited railway companies owning or using
steam vessele, harbours, and docks be repealed. lie pro •
posed that these questions should be referred to a committee
upstairs, and he believed that the order as it now
stood would not be beneficial to the pablic interests. That
order was made under circumstances totally different to the
present, and he denied that the E fg2ct of the alteratLn which
he proposed would give, as was contended, a monopoly to
the railway companies. He could not see how it concerned
Parliament or the public whether vessels or dock should be
held by railway companies or any other bodies so long as
truffle was facilitated.

Mr. BARROW asked the house to pause before consent-
ing to this alteration. He was very anxious for this stand-
ing order being agreed to some years ago, in order to
prevent a monopoly on the part of railway companies,
which he thought was a subject in which the house should
justly interfere. He strongly objected also to railway
companies having such extensive powers as this order was
intended to limit, without any reference to Parliament.

Mr. CLAY objected to the motion of the noble lord, and
denied that this order prohibited railway proprietors be-
coming shipowners, but merely imposed on them the onus
of showing the necessity of what they desired as a matter
of public convenience. He considered that the repeal
of this order would go further than it proposed, as it would
convey an intimation to railway companiet that the powers
which they sought would be pedal wherever they
were required, instead of throwing on them the
necessity of showing that such powers would
be exercised for the public interest. He defied any one who
had read the evidence before the committee to come logically
to the conclusion that by giving railway compar.les these
extensive powers the interests of the public would be pro-
moted.

Mr. HODSON said that if he thought the repeal of this
order would have the effect of injuring the shipping inte•
rest, he would not advocate it, Iy:a he contended that
such would not be the result. tfe considered, however,
that in regard to the purche.eo of shipping, or any other
property, the shareholde-ia of railways should have the
right of restricting tiv.;tr directors in making purcb:des of
such property. Tr
—'4der all the circumstances he -felt bound
to support the tr.etion of the noble lord.
Sir H, CAI tiNS was opposed to tb
prosed, and cited trio evidence adducedbetore thealteration committee op how
that the effect of the standing Order being pealed would
re
be to i:irive steamship owners out of tha field altogether, and,
therefore, virtually create a nrempol
Y whiokl would not
conduce to the benefit of the public.
GIBSON said the c..se was simply that com-
plaints had been made Parliament which led to
the appointment of a rjoramittee, which, after delibera-
tion, recommended the adoption of the course
which the nob',e lord (Stanley) now advocated. It
was asserted 'oy the complainants that the declared policy
of the hP:ase was different to its practice. Since 1548 the
Prect'..ce of Parliament had been to grant powers to public
cr
dmpanies--

An Ho N., MEMBER—SometiDaes to refuse them.
Mr. M. GlBSON—Sometimes to refuse them. (A
laugh,) What the noble lord (Stanley) asked was merely
to repeal an order that was calculated to mislead the coun-
try.

After soma discussion, the r;Action was negatived without
a division,

ILLTREATMENr OF MISSIONARIES IN
ABYSSINIA.

Mr. H. SEYMOUR asked the Under Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs what information her Majesty's Govern--
rnent had received relat,;ng to the ill-treatment of missionaries
in Abyssinia, and the imprisonment of her Majesty's con-
eta there by Ki Theodorus ; and what steps her Majesty's
Government h3.d taken in consequence,
Mr' LAY A.RD said, that efforts were being made to
effect the ),
beratiou of the Consul, and the other matter had
revEhve'), the attention of the Government.
GREENWICH HOSPITAL.
n the_ order for going into committee of supply,
Sir J HAY moved a resolution to the effect that it was
desirable that the Admiralty should adopt the recommen•
dations of the Royal Commission of 1860, confirmed by the
report of Richard Bromley, one of the present commis•
sioners, old by the letter of Mroiral Sir James Gordon, the
governor of Greenwich Hospital, that the present system of
doubt© government be abolished, as a remedy for the abuses
ivb MI had arisen under that system.
"1: he motion was seconded by Mr LIDDELL, who com-
Viained of the Government for neglecting to carry out the
recommendations of the commissioners. He could never
understand how it was that the hospital had not been go-
verned at Greenwich, and he believed the abolition of the
double government would bring the a fllire of the institution
into harmonious working, and effect a considerable saving
of c%penditure.

Mr ADAM E upported the motion, and urged that to make
IGrienwich Hospital what it ought to be, it was nceeseary
not only that the double government should coast., but that
the institution should aeeume thocharz.cter of an infirmary
as well as an asylum,

Mr CITILDERS, whilst can iouing tho house not to act
with precipitation, admitted that a stringent menfure of
reform was ni!cessary, as the expense of management was
far too high, but every attention was paid to the comfort of
the pensioner •s. It we‘s now intended by the Government to
pr4pose to I admissions to the hospital to thcee who
were incapalAe, in consequence of age or infirmity, of main-
tainine thorriselves outside its walls. Thus the institution

would be an infirmary for the sick and a receptacle for those
whose out-pensions were insufficient for their subsistence.
It was also proposed to add to the out-pensions of men
who had reached a certain age; to abolish the double
government, :and appoint a chief officer to p-elide over the
affairs of the hospital, and to do away wan tl e residential
civil and military appointments of the ins': tu on at the end
of five years, but not to do so without giviaz fair compen-
sats:on. The hon. gentleman shadowed out the probable
effect of these changes in a financial point of view, and
intimated that the plan would be matured in the recess and
a measure brought before the house early in the nest session
of Parliament.
Sir J. PAKINGTON was glad the Government had
arrived at a conclusion upon this important question, and
so far as it appeared to him the principle on which the Ad-
miralty proposed to act was a sound one. With respect to
the double government of the hospital, the house, he was
sure, would be gratified at hesAng that the system was to
be put an end to ; but he could no regard the pro-
posal to reduce the miP;cary appoinments to a period of five
years without feeltlgs of doubt and jealousy.
In answer to INTL-. CORRY,
Lord C. i'AGET said that among the appointments that
were to terminate at the end of five years were the offices
of governor and lieutenant-governor of the hospital. He
added that he should shortly lay upon the table the memo.,
randum of the First Lard containing the details of the
scheme ; and that hereafter Greenwich Hospital would be
placed on the same footing as Hasler and other hospitals,
with a superintendent and sufficient officers to maintain
discipline in the establishment.
Sir J. HAY expressed his satisfaction at the statement
made by Mr. Childers, and his motion was then withdrawn.
SCOTCH PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.

Sir J. FERGUSSON moved for a select committee to
inquire how far the number of the members of the ad-
ministration charged with the conduct of the affairs of
Scotland, and having seats in Parliament, is commensu-
rate with the requ'zements of that part of the United
Kingdom. The lion, baronet argued that the Lord
Advocate, the member of the Government to whom the
conduct of the Scotch business was entrusted, being a
practicing lawyer, and having other avocations elsewhere,
had not time to introduce measures of the magnitude and
importance that were necessary ; that the mode in which
Scotch bills were prepared, considered, and passed was not
satisfactory; and that the political functions of the Lord
Advocate ought not to be exercised by a practising lawyer,
The motion having been seconded by Mr CAIRD,
Mr E. P. BOUVERIE contended that the management
of Scotch business under the present system was satisfac-
tory to the members from Scotland, and that there was no
necessity for any change.

The LORD ADVOCATE, in opposing the motion and
answering the objections of Sir J. Fergusson, said that
although it was true the holder of his office was a practising
lawyer, it was also certain that during the session of Par-
liament he must, to a great extent, throw his private prac •
tice to the winds, and with few and rare exceptions he him-
self had acted upon that principle. The right hon. gentle-
man then enumerated the many important measures affect-
ing Scotland that had become law in recent years, in order
to show that the interests of the country had not been
neglected by the executive, Further, if he compared those
measures with others of the same magnitude and impor-
tance for England, the proof that Scotch legislation was
not crude or defective was to be seen in the fact that there
were SO few instances in which it had been questioned in
the courts of law. The functions of the Lord Advocate
were no doubt numerous and responsible, but he considered
that they were not beyond the powers of one man with
reasonable diligence and assiduity to perform.
Mr SMOLLETT urged that large reforms were necessary
in the Court of session, the Sheriffs' Courts, and in the laws
relating to marriage, succession, and domicile in Scotland ;
but complained that, when on a previous occasion he drew
attention to these subjects, the Lord Advocate told him that
he had better take them in hand himself. In his opinion,
Scotchmen required that the law on these points should be
assimilated to that of England. If a Secretary of State were
appointed for Scotland they might hope to see him deal
with questions of that sort, but as long as the whole con-
duct of the Scotch business in Parliament was entrusted to
the Lard Advocate they would never have any large legal
reforms such as the country demanded.
After some observations from Mr. CIRNEGIE and Mr.
ROBERTSON,

Mr. MIME believed that the appointment of a select
committee would bring out no new facts or be of any good
whatever. He suggested, therefore, that the motion should
be withdrawn.

Sir W. DUNBAR remarked that long experience had
convinced him that no change cr,uld be beneficially intro-
duced in the mode of conducting Scotch business in that
house. In his opinion it was managed very satisfactorily,
and he attributed that circumstance to the friendly inter•
course which was maintained between the Lord Alvocate
and the Scotch members.

The motion was then withdrawn,
THE DAY OF PAYMENT OF THE OCTOBER
DIVIDENT)S.
Mr. R. MILLS asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether for the convenience of the public he would make
an arrangement by which the dividends on the Government
annuities, payable at the Bank of England in the month of
October, should be paid on the Bth day of that month, the
same as in the case of the months of January, April, and
July. The hon. member based his application on the ground
that many infirm persons, forgetting that the o,:tober divi-
dends are not paid until tho 13th, came as usual on the Sth
of the month, and had their labour for their pains.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the 13th of October had been the dividend day ever since
the Bank of England had been established, and he was not
aware that any very large number of persons were disap-
pointed by making the mistake referred to. He should have
pleasure in acceding to the wish of the hon. member, but
for one matter of considerable importance. Tho house was
was aware that the September quarter was one of extremely
weak receipt. The September quarter would always be a
weak quarter. The great mass of cur payments were con-
centrated upon four periods of the year, which are partially
connected wif h the four quarter-days of the Exchequer, and
partly with the four days for the payment of dividends at
the Bank of England, which were very near them. Con.se-
quentl,7 the public funds accumulated, there came a heavy
Inessure, and the whole or nearly the whole of the balances
were exhausted. Therefore, if we were to increase that
pressure at any of those quarter-days, e should compel the
public either to increase its demands on the Bank of Eng-
land for deficiency bills, or else to have a large amount of
money in hands at that particular time. his hon, friend
might perhaps think the difference very small, but that
would not be so, for the proposed change would have the
effect of diminishing the quarter's revenue by nearly a
million. Under the circumstances, therefore, he could not
give a pledge to alt
...1 the law with regard to dividends.

EPPING FOREST.
Ur rr...OII.IIENS asked the Secretary to the Treasury
rliether her Majesty's Government intended to take any
steps to carry ont, completely or partially, the recommenda-
tions contained in the report of the select committee on
Royal forests in Essex of last session; whether any en-
croachments or enclosures had been reported to have been
made within the forests since the date of that report; and,
ii so, whether they had taken place on portions of the
forest wherein the rights of the Crown had been sold or not,
He would also move for copy of any orders or correspond..
ence regarding inclosures in the Royal forest in Essex
since, or in consequence of, the report of the select com-
mittee of last session.

Mr F. PEEL said it was desirable that the rights of
the Crown over Epping Forest should be clearly under-
stood. The forestal right of the Crown was simply a
right to feed deer; and as there were no deer in the forest,
the right of the Crown merely amounted to a right of
preventing fences being put up and keeping the forest an
unenclosed waste. The select committee on forests had re-
ported in favour of the Crown disposing of this right, which
was accordingly done, and at present there only remained
3,000 acres over which the Crown exercised any control.
The committee of last year had also recommended that por-
tions of the forest should be set apart for public recreation
grounds, but they did not state how the cost of making a
public, park was to be maintained. If that difficulty wore
overcome, the recommendation might be carried out. He
believed there had been no encroachments or inclosures
since the committee made their report, nor had any report
been made respecting the forest since that time, with the
exception of one from the Commissioners of Woods, which
was at present under consideration.
Mr. PEACOCK E thought the right hon. gentleman had
underrated the importance of the forestal rights of the
Crown, for upon their preservation depended the power of
keeping open spaces for the recreation of the inhabitants of
this crowded metropolis. When the hon. gentleman the
Secretary of the Treasury stated that no enclosures had
taken place in the forest since the committee had reported,
he could only say that the Government were badly informed
on the subject. He had himself gone down to Epping
Forest a fortnight ago, and he found that a portion of it
near Woodford Wells was inclosed, the place which used
to be the greatest resort of the public for the purposes of
recreation. He thought it would be well to send down a
commission to the spot to see what portion should be set
apart for recreation, and, if necessary, that the freeholds
should be purchased.
Mr. WATLINGTON dwelt upon the importance of pro-
Carving portions of the forest for the enjoyment of the pope •
lation of the eastern parts of the metropolis, who went there
in crowds on Saturdays and Mondays, and on other days
during the summer season. He thought that the rights'of
the people had been very much interfered with by the legal,
and sometimes illegal, enclosures which were constantly
taking place.

Mr. COX complained that, since the report of the com-
mittee, enclosures had taken place and were taking place,
and he thought it was the duty of the Government to pro-
tect
loth riZlita of the Crown and the rights of the
people.

Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER slid there
NV:18 ono proposition upon which they were all agreed—
that this question Was in a state which was vary unsatis-
factory. The majority of the committee recommandcd,
amongst other things, that the sanction of Parliament was
to be obtained for enclosing portions of the forest, and
that, where the rights of parties were interested provision
should be made for purchasing those rights. But who was

to find the purchase money ? The house should remember I
the estates of the Crown were only vested in the publ;- -
Its f life ; and that the duty of

-... ttS

tenon, .or . •
of Woods and Forests was tir, vommislioners
aNcninlster that estate as ether
landlords admintf,,exed their estates, the address of last
year, b:wever, was calculated to inflict considerable injury
upon the corpus of the Crown estate. Moreover, the public
were not the people of London—the public were the people
of the three kingdoms ; and were the people of all the other
towns in the country entitled to make similar claims upon
the Consolidated Fund ? Don't let them look at a narrow
corner of the question. Let them look to what the State had
done for the people of London. The sole effect of the ad-
dress of last year had been to prevent the Government from
selling those forestal rights ; and the consequence was those
rights were enjoyed without the permission of Government.
Governtient was not justified in appointing commissioners
for ate purpose of getting rid of responsibility. "Unless they
Were prepared to entrust a definite object to a commission,
they ought not to be appointed. But, independently of that,
the house had entrusted to the Metropolitan Board of Works
the business of providing for such wants on the part of the
metropolis, and therefore the Government would not be
justified in taking upon itself functions which had been
conferred upon another body,

Sir J, SHELLEY thought the right hon. gentleman was
mistaken with respect to the powers of the Metropolitan
Board of Works—they had no power of taking any lands
beyond their jurisdiction. All that was now asked for was
that Government should prevent any encroachments upon
these forests.
Mr, TORRENS then withdrew his motion.
PROMOTION IN THE NAVY.

Sir L. PALK moved that the house resolve itself into a
committee to consider of an humble address to be presented
to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased
to give directions for putting the staff captains, commanders,
and masters of the Royal navy upon an equality in pay,
rank, and eligibility for receiving marks of distinction, with
any other class of officers in that service,
Sir J. PAKINGTON said it was not his intention to
make any observations respecting the case of the masters,
but he wished to submit to the Admiralty whether the
question of his hon. friend did not open a question of a far
wider character. (Hear, hear,) A supplementary estimate
had been brought forward, in which provision was made for
captains and flag officers, but the plan was not satisfactory
to the officers affected by it, It was also a serious defect
that there were several classes of officers which were not
touched by it at all. He submitted that the time was
come when the subject should be dealt with in a more ex-
tensive manner than it had been in the supplementary esti-
mates, and he hoped his noble friend (Lord C. Paget)
would inform the house whether there would be any ob-
jection to refer the matter to a Royal commission. (Hear,
hear.)
Colonel EDWARDS supported the motion.
_ _

Mr. C. BERKELEY thought, as the committee last year
had no power to inquire into queetion of pay, and consider-
ing the state of the lists, the suggestion of the right hon.
baronet was well worthy of consideration.

Sir W. MILES hoped the Secretary of the Admiralty
would make this concession. He thought there was no class
in the navy that required more consideration than that of
the masters. He trusted that the claims of these meritorious
officers might be taken into consideration by a Royal corn-

mission.

Mr. AYRTON said he hoped that the house would
not too hastily adopt the suggestion that had been
made. The real question was, whether the inducements at
present heid out by the Royal Navy were sufficient to
secure as efficient class of officers for her Majesty's set-
vice. He believed that they were ; and, therefore, could
not see the necessity for these constant applications on the
i part of the officers for an increase of pay. lie hoped the
country would be satisfied with what had been done by the
committee of last year.
Mr. Alderman ROSE thought the masters had a real
grievance, which ought to be considered by the house.
Mr, T. HANKEY was of opinion that if the House of
Commons were to be made a court of appeal for grievances
which ought to be remedied by the officers of the Crown,
great inconvenience would ensue. So long as the services
of the country were efficiently discharged, it was the duty
of the house to watch the expeniture of the Government,
Mr. FERRAND vindicated the right of the masters to
appeal to the house if they had a grievance. Were they to
strike, as had been recommended the other night by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER called
upon the hon. gentleman to prove his statement.
Mr. FERRAND apologised if he had misrepresented
the right hon. gentleman. At any rate, the right hon.
gentleman had justified strikes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed
his dissent.
Lord C. PAGET was hardly prepared to say whether
the Gevernment would recommend the appointment of a
Royal Commission. The masters had been invited to state
their grievances, and he was prepared to repeat what he
stated a few nights ago, that it was not the question of pay
so much as their social rank and position that they com-
plained of. The committee recommended that some higher
rank should be given to them, and this the Admiralty had
carried out. There were still some grievances about com-
parative rank; but the House of Commons was not the
place for the discussion of these subject,, and he would
implore the house to leave all these matters in the hands of
the Admiralty, who were responsible for them, The noble
lord compared the pay received by masters with the pay
received by lieutenants and commanders, and contended
that there could be no grievance on the part of the mas-
ters as regarded their pay. Of all classes of officers in
the navy, his sympathy was, perhaps, most with the DIM •
ters, who were, in his opinion, the most useful class of men ;
but he was sorry they should come before the house with
this grievance.
Sir J, ELPHINSTONE defended the claims of the
masters, who were well deserving of the consideration of
the house, and said it was absurd to suppose that the offi-
cers of the navy should be silent on the subject of their
grievances, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed
out to the artisan that the way to obtain an increase of
wages was by a" strike." The right hon. gentleman might
rely upon it that the matter would not be allowed to drop
until justice was done.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repudiated
the practice of transferring to commissioners the duties, and
declared that the administration of public patronage would
become foul and corrupt if it were exercised upon the loose
and arbitrary principles contended for that evening.
After some observations from Mr. Corry, Sir J, Hay, and
Mr. Hennessy, the amendment was withdrawn, and the
house went into committee of supply pro
,forma.
The Banking for Co-partnership and the College of Phy-
sicians Bills were road a third time and passed,
The Burials Registration Bill was read a second time.
Mr. FE RRAND obtained leave to introduce a bill to
amend the Act compensating the families of persons killed
by accident.
The house adjourned at five minutes to two o'clock.

THE SOUTH SEA ISLANDS.—The commerce of the
Society Islands is growing. They now export fish,
mother-of-pearl, pearls, sea snails, cocoa nut oil, fibres, and
fecula of pia, vanilla, sugar, coffee, alcohol made of kawa,
and rat-ear mushrooms. The rat-ear mushrooms are sold
for 200 dole. a tun. These and the sea snail are shipped to
Chi na. —Panama Star.

THE BANK RATE OF DISCOUNT.—A parliamen-
tary return shows the several changes in the Bank rate of
discount from the beginning of the year 1846 to the present
time. In the earlier years of the series the changes were
vex), few ; there was but one in the year 1846, one in 1849,
one in ISSO, none in 1851. Since 1854 the fluctuations have
teen much more frequent, The rate of discount was altered
seven times in 1855, eight times in 1856, nine times in 1857,
six times in 1858, five times in 1859, eleven times in 1860,
eleven times in 1861, five times in 1862, twelve times in
1863, and six times in little more than a third of 1864
namely, up to the sth of May. The highest rate in the list
was 10 per cent., which prevailed in 1657, from Lord
Mayor's-day to the day before Christmas. The lowest rate
was 2 per cent., which prevailed during the greater part of
the year 1852, and for three months of the summer and
autumn of 1862.

Persons in debt may obtain instant protection against
imprisonment or seizure of their goods, and an entire release
from all debts and liabilities without publicity, by application
to Messrs. Marshall, solicitors of the Court of Bankruptcy,
Charges under £5 payable by easy instalments. Offices—
(established 1830),12, Hatton-garden. City branch —6, Moor
gate-street, Bank.—ADVT.
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