The Sun.
London, England, 1864-07-15 00:00:00

and Colonel W ilson Patten. Power to send for
persons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.
The hon. and galls .nt member said that it had been custom-
ary at the close a f the session to reconsider the standing
orders with a view to their improvement, availing themselves
of the experience of the session. There were no less than 505
private bills this session to be decided cl firing the session,
and it was impcissible to get through them in the com-
mittees of OA House of Commons so as to
enable them t,a be dealt with in the other house
in time. Of co urse they had as much right in the House
of Lords to have their standing orders adhered to as they
had in this Louse in regard to private business. It had
been proposed to have a tribunal external to this house to
deal with the facts of any private bills, and to have the
merits .considered by a committee of the house. He did
not feel, when this proposition was made, that he could
accede to it. A proposal had also been made
to reduce the number of members of committees to two.
He was also opposed to that proposal, because he thought
it would disturb public confidence in the decisions of com-
mittees. He thought it would be advisable to have the
number of committees reduced from five to four, and to
give the chairman a double vote in cases of difficulty.
Sir J. SHELLEY said he thought more time should be
given to consider this question. He gave notice that to-
morrow he would move that the hon. baronet, the member
for Eversham (Sir H. Willoughby), and the hon. and learned
member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr Ayrton) be added to
the committee.
Sir L. PALK drew attention to the unnecessary number
of witnesses that were called to prove a particular point,
notwithstanding Cae intimation of the committee that they
were satisfied with reference to that point. The reply vir-
tually of counsel was that the committee would take the
conduct of the bills into their hands. He thought that
this subjcet should be one of the subjects on which the
commit'tee proposed should decide,
After some remarks from Sir J, FERGITSSOIi and Mr

AXIITON,
Mr M. GIBSON said he thought this question should
be referred to the select committee of standing orders.
Mr HODGSON and Mr WHALLEY made a few observa-
tions.

Lord STANLEY advocated the subject being referred to
a select committee, and he considered that reducing the
number of members of a committee to three would give the
members greater responsibility, and be attended with benefit.
There was no necessity for any new regulation relative to
the admission of a number of witnesses to particular points,
as that power was vested in committees. He contended
that the real remedy to meet an evil which was manifest in
regard to private bill legislation, was to extend the hours in
the day on which committees sat, which at present were
about three hours and a half.

Lord E. HOWARD drew attention to the hardships
inflicted in certain districts by bills being promoted for
railways which it was never intended to construct, but
which were intended merely to embarrass landed proprietors
in the neighbourhood.

Lord R. CECIL said that a committee of the house
should have the power to impose costs in the event of
frivolous objections beingade to an undertaking.
Mr MASSEY Agreed with the noble lord (Lord R. Cecil)
as regarded the infliction of costs, and he thought the ex-
periment by the hon. and gallant member (Col. W. Patten)
was entitled to an experiment, although he saw serious dif-
ficulties in dealing with the subject. He thought the house
should have sufficient confidence in the standing orders
committee to allow the subject to be referred to that tribunal,
in order that a national scheme might be agreed on, which
from the zeal and intelligence of this committee might be
expected to obtain the sanction of the house.
Mr SOTHERN ESTCOURT wished his name to be
withdrawn from the committee, which was agreed to.

PRIVATE BILL REFEREES.
On the motion of Col. W. PATTEN, that it was expe-
dient that referees should be constituted under the autho•
rity of this house for the more speedy and econo-
mical decision of certain questions of fact com-
monly arising in the proceedings upon private bills,

the resolution was ordered to be an instruction to the
Standing Orders Commitee.

CAPTAIN DE BURGH.
Mr HANBURY asked the Under Secretary of State for
War, whether Captain Da Burgh should be allowed to
command the Uxbridge Yeomanry Cavalry when charges
which are preferred against him are still unsettled ; and
whether the order for the annual assembling of the
yeomanry can be countermanded until the matters pending
be cleared up ?
The Marquis of HARTINGTON explained that Captain
Do Burgh had satisfied the Lord Lieutenant of the county
in reference to the complaints made of him.
NEW ZEALAND LOAN BILL.
On the order for reading the New Zealand Guarantee of
Loan Bill a second time,
Mr A. MILLS moved as an amendment that the bill be
read a second time that day three months. The hon. mem-
ber said that he had good authority for asserting that, if
the present war lasted until the month of April next, it
would cost the English taxpayer not less than a million and
a half sterling in the course of the year, It further ap-
peared that Mr Ward, the agent for the colony, and the
negotiator of the proposed loan, had frankly confessed that
ho had no power to bind the New Zealand Legislature,
either in respect of the repayment of the loan or the con-
tribution of the colony towards the military expenditure.
The question then was, whether the House of Commons
ought, under these circumstances, to guarantee this million
loan. It was said that the revenue of New Zealand
amounted to £700,000 a year, and that nine tenths of it
were derived from customs. If that were so, why did they
not go into the open market and raise a loan, without
coming in forma pauperis and asking for a guarantee from
Parliament, of whose interference they were always so
jealous, in order to enable them to carry on a war with
reference to the righteousness of which the people of Eng-
land had serious misgivings; and the real cause of which
lay in the greed of the colonists for the acquisition of land.
He hoped the house would n.'et consent to a guarantee, the
consequence of which rarest be to impose upon the mother
country a heavy burden and check that spirit of self-
reliance and national 'vigour which our colonel communi-
ties could only, realise when they had been brought to the
convictioe,. that the burden must be shared by those who
claimPed and enjoyed the privileges of freedom.
'rhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the proposal had been carefully considered by the
Government from a financial point of view, and there
could be no doubt as to the solvency of the colony and its
disposition to fulfil its engagements. The policy of the
war had been approved by the Imperial Government, and
we could not, therefore, justly throw the expense exclusively
upon the colony. New Zealand was the first of our colo
nial possessions that had made any large contribution to-
wards the cost of a war—and the inducements to the Go-
vernment to take part in the loan were, that one-half the
amount would go immediately into the Imperial Exchequer
to pay off existing debts, and that a great improvement
would be effected in the future regulations of the charge for
military assistance.
Mr WHITESIDE contended that in asking Parliament
to guarantee the loan, the Government were bound to ex-
plain their policy, and state whether the war was to be con-
tinned to maintain the honour of the country, or if it was in-
tended to exterminate the natives and distribute their lands
amongst those who were engaged in the accomplishment of
that object.
Mr ROEBUCK reiterated his well-known and oft-ex-
pressed views with respect to the natural repugnance exist-
ing between the white and the brown races, and the inevit-
able disappearance of the latter before the advancing tide of
civilisation, the cupidity of the whites, and the introduction
of those potent agents of Christian colonisation, fire-water
and 'tobacco. If we persisted in the endeavour to maintain
the colony of New Zealand we were also bound to guarantee
this loan and face the direful necessity which had now come
upon us of utterly exterminating the natives—for it was
quite impossible that the European and the Maori could
exist side by side with each other.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY objected to the house mixing
itself up with the financial transactions of New Zealand,
and observed that he understood the gentleman who had
negotiated the loan was connected with a local government
that was no longer in power.
The amendment was also supported by Mr ArrovN.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE hoped, if the loan were agreed to, I
that the mother country would be set free from the system
of making advances to New Zealand out of the Treasury
chest. He would like to know what 'exertions the colonists
themselves had made in their own behalf for the services of
the war.
Mr CARDWELL said he could not subscribe to the
ideas of Mr Roebuck on colonisation. So far as the Mum ice
were concerned, he thought they were an example that the
brown man need not necessarily disappear before the white.
As to the efforts which the colonists had put forth in their
own defence, in the first plaee the entire male population
of the province of Auckland capable of bearing arms had
abandoned the profitable pursuits of industry to defend their
homes against the natives ; and, in the next place, the New
Zealand Assembly had agreed to raise 5,000 military settlers
in that province, and to obtain a loan of three millions for
the purpose upon the guarantee of the Imperial Parliament.
This proposal had come recommended by the approval of
the governor. accompanied by the statement that the
colonists had made all the exertions that could be expected
rom them. Of this amount the Government had consented
to ask the Imperial guarantee of one million, and they did
so after having satisfied themselves that the security was
ample and indisputable.
Mr ADDERLEY thought that, on the whole, the pro-
position s
e however
w,
as cu e
which
the house might fairly sanction.
i
wasreaglatordgeedthaesraepxrceeepetdioennat.blTe,heancodlonhye
trusted it w leid not be
tv:aksenpeervfeeerty plysooslsibvenlet,parneedaudon
theG,overnment seemed to have
by providing a sinking
fund, to prevent ultimate loss to the Imperial treasury.
Sir J. TRELAWNY considered that it was her Ma-
jesty's Ministers, and not the colony, who were at fault for
the present state of things; and he held that it was an un-
dignified course on their part to make war against the
natives simply because one or two officers and a company
of men had been led into an arabresh and attacked. He
hoped the house would reject the bill,
The debate was continued by Mr J. B. Smith, Colonel
Sykes, Mr Whalley (who attributed the New Zealand