The Sun.
London, England, 1852-12-07 00:00:00

„1
troY Plot of land which ever could be purchased in this me-
to testi.. (Hear, hear.) Hereafter, if it should be submitted
tags
house that it was a convenient site among other
4;1,53 for the National Gallery, which must be rempved.
I,l;!`shere or other, for at present there was not a single
(h 7.1., where works of art could be deposited in safety—
qs,:rt would be for the house fairly to consider that
All Lien, and it would be entirely under their control.
ttiB"e Wished the house now to do was to agree to vote
'ttrlnlsof 150,0001., which he desired to see underith, e
Ns,' et a Minister of the Crown, according to the asr-
Ps'or,ll'ed in the commissioners' report. He had never
as t,;(1 that the house should vote a sum of money to
rbe.
titZts'i';;,eut of the control of a Minister of the Crov
on
tlielersi,e,to the house. They had heard some remarks
the
ISpakt7l's•• It was the locality to which not only
of th "lca of this metropolis, but the whole population
he 6 this
Kingdom resorted not two years ago,
trtire could not believe that if the inducement
hos equal. the locality would be found convenient.. The
kiatPetilber for East Surrey seemed to imagine this wastiie
gte,'lmpt to force a feeling for fine pictures amoeng
the
Ilisto;,ceranninity, when the fact was the refercnenc
oft e
oassni•'.Pictures was a very subordinate ports
Iclts pictures
report. The scheme they recommended
tisnut,caither more nor less than to give an industrial educa-
elssio the
People, and to bring the influence of sciepce,
piaSSIY, and of art upon the manufacturing production.
to th 4 asore practicable more important, and more ur.gent
hear, Lulterests of the country could not be conceived.
rB7,.esur.) This land was, in fact, virtually purchased,
48pliss-XlLe commissioners had entered upon a contract for
tentsZste,, with the confident expectation that Parha-
uhes-71,' Lne country would assist them. (Hear, heal.)
lass -c"e,Purchase was fully completed, all further plans
'are ti:eselve the consideration of the house, andheWa3
'clue would not consent to raising any buildings,
the
ass,” elPenditure, without a very rigid scrutiny into all
the ,A..'ageraelltS, and taking care that the whole talent of
e -I:4ll,trY should be brought into public competition.
s"UHarso' ts'ears) He hoped the committee would agree to
By doing so they would not agree to any exh-
t„
z• af:,:re beyond the purchase of valuable property, why
jfrier might be dealt with as Parliament should think
Pear, hear.)
ts hs • SMITH complained that the Chancellor of the
thee,4;isq,iler had not answered the question satisfactorily of
1 t -7,,Le lord the member for Totnes. The estimate was
44Ooptiveu,ced intheusual form, no detail was given, and
s„,e' the property they were about to purchase was.
Able%-ung. They ought to have information of the pro
wosfesurther sums which would be required, and who
torcicoe responsible for the expenditure.
the 'EYMOUR said they had not yet heard what was
slaclitstr. ntity of ground to be purchased, or what portion
Sthe made over to the public.
resILAY wished to know if a conditional contract had
ts-"ered into for all the land, because it was reported
seLewner of a small portion of the land, four acres
70,000/. for it, and said nothing should induce
The© take a farthing less. (Oh, oh.)
41ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
Ther\v-4 treated with the contempt it deserved. (Hear.)
ksegehnAwaa no conditional agreement whatever. Seventy
sad 117 been purchased by the surplus of the Exhibition,
i'„arelt;ece, commissioners offered to give the whole of their
Nets ; to the public, provided the nation would assist
(lift AI the object they had in view. There could be no
t~aCtlealt. in ma
ngements satisfactory to the house
eentrol and manaeement, but he wished it to be dis-
aSALubderstood that *the whole of the land purchased
s•V sr,given to the public. (Hear, hear.)
'44 1,-."-)3dE was satisfied with the assurance that the
(1/2.0 1/4ould be under the control of a Minister of the
iSs:3, but hoped the vote would be postponed until the
WO of the
property was before the committee.
'IIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
dialao be very convenient if the committee would now
Were,,,, 0001 the vote. The country would understand they
"u°sta3ring 150,0001. and receiving property worth
thy. "4 . CHAMBERS was at a loss to know whether
e/'e contributing to the purchase of 70 or 140 acres.
baet,4,'"ellded to vote against the proposition, because he
oseeepot what was to be done with the money. It was
mss
to which
desirous that the committee should know the
which the land would be devoted, whether it
tl'Aoslsl.-'erect proposed to a building on it, or whether it was
e -‘1 to use te land for nothing/. (Hear, and a laugh.)
qaisi`l'Prehended this was only the commencement of
thia 8 for larger sums for the erection of buildings upon
11sister of land. He would not concur in any vote
the Ttatormation was not given of the appropriation of
hS'3is ressueY. (Hear, hear.)
"ticiert ',I (YUNG suggested that the Government should
4at sf4,a,se to produce the maps before the money was paid
4, Aft. ~,"'S„e Exchequer.
Th,,".-KEENE thought the vote would be unanimous if
krs, was before the committee.
s • LOCKE, having a strong opinion on the prin.
4. St tha vote, was induced to enter his protest against
'"1101„, did not agree with the hon. gentleman opposite,
s't given them a very low estimate of the character
Lats„ Vstun len and nr did he attribute their great perfection
industrial skill to the Government schools
t"3,,,,oiti:r countries. He had no objection to one of the pro-
iPkee u... 3 Made in the course of the discussion, that mor•s
4,•'at wanted for the exhibition of some of our excel-
t'eatssi°l'"is of art ; but if it was intended to introduce a
~,-.,scatool in which degrees were to be established, and
4ach Which individuals might be excluded—(hear, hear)-
7,the Polytechnic School at Paris—he felt bound to
teal
th,"" voice against such a proposition. It might
.be
'aolesn Was only the first vote, and that it was only in-
'est, Im-Lor the purchase of land, but he apprehended that
Nlgeent other votes which would follow, and the
strefuen mcesa of which he dreaded.
Pete,i COWAN suggested that the vote should be post-
toss the
the plan in its details was more completely be-
At comnittee
thought if an institution was intended
Usts-'ssto the Polytechnic School in France, as the hon.
%her "' for Honiton (Mr. Locke) seemed to apprehend,
ostie Wel'
ould be great danger in sanctioning the vote with-
hutther inquiry.
40,Z8 CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQUER said the
tett gentleman opposite (Mr. Locke) made a startling m-
ite?, for which there was not the slightest foundation,
Isntiassed an argument against the vote which the hon.
ktelban already approved of. He (the Chancellor of the
oktrener) had heard of the hon. member's suggestion re-
*l,,thltbsg this school for the first time ; and ho could say
1/414C,?,m05t perfect confidenc, that there was not the
imaginable ground for it (cheers).
11.1.- vote was then agreed to without a division.
OitRAL OF THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON.
0,;(10.
Nig; next vote proposed was that a sum not exceeding
Should be granted for defraying the funeral ex-
hita °f the Duke of Wellington.
read,lultilEA thought the house ought to have anaccounet.
4,7aolese-s". the expenses of the funeral, before they pr
'Pk °0 this vote • indeed, if reports out of doors were
Was not certain that they ought not to have a corn-
ea appointed to examine into many of the items of the
it,tilet's• A. HAMILTON said he could assure the honour-
'Use -'stesialher for Montrose that immediately after
.the
ksossr-4,°ok place means were taken to collect the various
~Nclst-S-", and he held in his hand an abstract of those se-
nt, .rse.,° far as he had been able to obtain them. The
items were as follows :—Accounts in reference to
tart.P.ablic works, 25,000/. ; the Lord Chamberlain and
his ti,7•rshal, 33,0001. ; and expenses connected with mov-
tro, troops, 8500/
(exclusive of the cost of lodging the
IthOf e Prior to 'the 'funeral, not yet ascertained). Thee
gtesses's" the accounts which had been received up to that
amounted to 47,000/. ; and he believed the total
" 'would not amount to 80,0001. He could assure
est °,-;oe that ev ry care should be taken to enforce the
esn;.itegid and Iris' economy in the settlement of those
lot,ttottlarelees,l`ll:s-ussiy
inixteYrreSdT;UAßT said he was second to no man
ires'eheration he felt for the illustrious hero whom they
but he had to complain throughout
ih,11(1e1:3•11(Illet of the Government in this business—first,
Zk4e lug the funeral, and next, in refusing the request
afOre 418i8 honourable friend the member for Montrose
slcich "ue funeral for an estimate of the expenses, and
t'hu_otits",B not even ready now. It would have been more.
s son Ito have d ferred asking for the money until
the ee",,,,,itbateassas complete.e He was not prepared to say
ZDeCur a Was excessive—(hear, hear)—but 80,0001. did
tZal, very large sum. He should be dm' posed to be. li-
OusvB" far as he was concerned, when they were voting
°ll:auch an occasion ; but when it was borne in
ts_'•oo•
otrait the funeral of Nelson cost the country only
i
sm4t aura a mustsay there was a wide difference between
411. ss. d the cine they were now called on to vote. He
know
whether the expenses of foreign visitors of
kerehTtl the occion of the feral
whether were includ
theyed
ist,:fon d Chamberlain's acco
iunttun or
he woweed to be provided for n the vote of 80,000/ ?
connected with
14.,11.intleralsow advert to a circumstance
NI% Thou which hadnepersonally great
givenments on the day of the
rah
ls
wseregsuchheas to arrangements
d general approbation,
act t aluect credit on all concerned, it was a dep.lorable
Its-,"hel• ia,:se._ few days before several persons lost their lives
(littesaarla ess of the people to pay their respects towards
th,t oh, fr of the departed hero at Chelsea H. ospital.
osster of °ln the Ministerial benches.) Was iutmtsltisenneea
oU eoB,:urPrise that he should advert to
lei that ec the lives of at least three of histefensllscoirwte-hcereseat livesures
ght sinvcea3lon ? It was only justice
precautions had been
e)4'
suer
been
preserved if
greaterby those who were
t:Al',?,llBil4 better arrangements male
th'" 41bsi e He did not wish to say more—(cheers from
t•
th sterialista)--except to express his very great regre
I;:ieLkettgeueral success of everything connected with that
-"er " was marred by that most deplorable event which
_ arras
se
ssZu.,lsl J. ••g ments might have prevented.
MANNERS said, having been responsible for a
tosZre of the arrangements to which the noble
committee
elception he could assure him and the
uPos °l)a the fird
bk. he Was moment a public fu.neral was determined
e 4 • bssmost anxious that an estimate. should be pre-
nit? for ba" 141:1 found, on inquiry, that, owing to the limited.
Its ' atlq t:„iig the great preparations which were re ui-
A°ssitr novel nature of. the service, it was perfectlyg
4444 be pia_
e, arrive at an estimate on which any reliance
bee Wha e:n.".• (Hear, hear.) So far as his part of the busi-
Re: ierned, the heads of all e expenditure had
erall 64, and he believed the noble lord and the house
ssllse, bs'YtnivreeVid.shortly have an opportunity of testing the
kilor Which
had been incurred. In the department
esh_ubt of t, ue (Lord John Manners) presided, a great
nine and the most assiduous labour had been
gre:',Pnte Only with the view of carryingout the ar-
eas; tuteeob at the most effective manner, but with the
Vvas'eu• (si-c'ulY consistent with the importance of the op-
seF Peassieear, hear.) He repeated he did not think it
11.1pce es, ,(I.° Prepare beforehand an estimate upon which
as:. 11•Isn.' bb.Pla. placed.
eh ef said if the house was not furnished with an
the actual expenses that had been incurred, he
s'alisteri,;le the house. (Shouts of " Oh, oh," from the
obsbe enenches.)
ss!ervasiossa-NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER made an
tTi7..attienedut across the table, but it was lost in the uproar
ti
he Ny.0.4113:, the hon. member for Montrose's intimation
bat r• S. cA.Tlide the committee.
?was reee,'-._'-c-ER then endeavoured to address the house,
. Was unable Sy with such loud cries of " Oh, oh," that
and -dant
eg he su proceed. After the apse of several
ask moved that the chairman doh report progress,
rl r• litleassve_to sit again. (Oh, oh.)
wa.alt; said the house was acting in a most die-
;Neste as in Land if the Government would not keep their
eed wiTT;er
.ordpr, it would be quite impossible to
port the business. (Oh, oh.) He felt bound to sup-
on!!!•• ,I'l°l-itil3,u4S)! his hon. friend.
"Y or then rose, but his remarks were
hiBst discord ed amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh !" and the
trostegret a!tt noises. We understood him to express
agreed anatthe course taken by the hon. member for Mon-
Ilia hope that the resolution would have been
ghte without a dissentient voice. (Oh, oh, and
sis r)
bhetixtgivlliPg arcssaid he had no objection to the hon. mem-
eoa *4 a trustueque for the amount out of his own pocket,
-4eht to ~ ee for the public, he (Mr. Hume) could not
,be Course now Pursued. (Oh, oh')

Mr. HUDSON—The hon. member talks a
for as much lnout giving a
cheue. I will give a cheque as w ill.
(Roars of laughter.)
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but *ono
took place. On our re-admission.
Mr. CARTER was found on his legs, but not one word
in ten reached the gallery. He complained that the sum
asked for was a great deal too much. (Oh, oh.) He was,
however, almost surprised the Government were content
with so little as 80,0001. Judging from the temper of the
house, and the manner in which the other sums had been
voted, they might have obtained twice as much. (Oh, oh.)
A good deal was formerly said about precedent ; but in-
stead of the Government confining themselves to the pre-
cedent of Nelson's funeral, they required five times as
much. (Oh, oh.) What was the use of consulting a pre-
, cedent if they were to multiply it by five? (Laughter.)
Following the same course, if another public funeral should
take place, they might ask the country for 400,000. (Oh,
oh, and laughter.)
Colonel SIBTHORP had heard scarcely anything that
had fallen from the hon. member' but he understood him
to have used the word " metal." Now in some metal there
was a great deal of dross, and he thought the metal alluded
to by the hon. member would never circulate through the
United Kingdom. (Laughter.) There was not a man or
woman in the country who would not gladly give their
penny to testify their veneration for one of the greatest
men who ever lived. (Hear, hear.)
The amendment was then by leave withdrawn.
Lord D. STUART wished to know if the expenses of the
foreign officers of distinction attending the funeral were
included in the 80,0001.
Mr. HAMILTON was not aware whether any expense
had been incurred for foreign officers, but if that was the
case he believed it to be included in the vote. (Hear.)
Mr. CARTER said he also had a question to ask. (Oh,
oh.) What was the cost of the funeral car ? (Oh, oh.)
No answer was returned to the question, and the resolu-
tion was put and agreed to.
The Chairman then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again.
TENANTS' COMPENSATION (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day having been read for the purpose of
postponing the second reading of this and the other Irish
law bills introduced by the Attorney-General for Ireland,
Mr. KEOGH wished the honourable and learned gentle.
man to give the house some opportunity of discussing these
bills, two of which were of the most objectionable nature,
during the present week. One of these bills was so
objectionable that he did not believe it would receive
the sanction of fifty members. The honourable and
learned gentleman had been negotiating a postponement,
but the Irish members were anxious to test his sincerity
and consistency in the form of his bills as soon as possible.
(Hear, hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND said if
the honourable and learned gentleman in reality enter-
tained any objection to these bills he should have put an
honest notice on the paper that they be read a second time
this day six months. (Hear, hear.) He understood there
would be no objection to the principle of the bills. The
fourth bill, the Landlord and Tenant Right Bill, was sub-
stantially the same as that which had been introduced for
the last three sessions. (Mr. Keogh : Certainly not.) His
intention was to have postponed the bills, in order that they
might be considered during the recess, but he was quite
prepared to bring them on for discussion at any time.
(Hear. hear.)
Ultimately the second reading was fixed for to-day.
The West India Colonies, &c., Loans Act Amendment
Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Commons Inclosure Bill went through committee.
STAMP DUTIES ON NEWSPAPERS.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in moving for leave to
bring in a bill to amend the law relating to stamp duties
on newspapers, observed that the schedule in the act of
George 111. defined newspapers to be papers containing
public news, intelligences, or occurrences published within
the United Kingdom, or any remarks or observations
thereon, or such as were published periodically, or in parts
or numbers, or at intervals, not exceeding 26 days. There
was a publication called the " Household Narrative,"
published by Bradbury and Evans, of which Mr. Dickens
was the author, and it was the opinion of the Stamp-office
that that paper, although published at intervals of not less
than 26 days was liable to stamp-duty ; and accordingly
an information was filed against the publisher to recover
the penalties and duties incurred, the object being to
obtain a decision of the court as to whether the publi-
cations were liable to stamp duty or not. The case
was argued before the Court of Exchequer. Three
judges were of opinion that the publication was not liable
to stamp duty ; the fourth, Mr. Baron Parke, being of
opinion that it was. The difference of opinion between
the judges turned entirely upon the question whether the
definitions that he had read to the house were distinct and
separate definitions, or whether the third was merely a
qualification of the first. The three judges were of
opinion that the third was merely a qualification, and that
therefore no publication was a newspaper which was not
published at intervals of less than 26 days, Mr. Baron
Parke being of a different opinion. This argument took
place before the present Government came into office.
When he came into office, he found that the law officers
who preceded him were of opinion that the decision of the
Court of Exchequer was not satisfactory, and that it was
necessary to take the opinion of a higher court on the sub-
ject. He certainly quite agreed in the course adopted by
his predecessors. And whatever might have been his
opinion, he should certainly have felt it his duty to follow
the course which they had pointed out, and therefore the
appeal to the Court of Exchequer Chamber was deter-
mined upon. His right honourable friend the Chancellor
of the Exchequer thought, however, that it was right
to adhere to the opinion which was expressed by
the majority of the Court of Exchequer, and he was
extremely desirous, both for the sake of the public
and to prevent litigation, that a measure should
be introduced to support the opinion of the ma-
jority of the Court of Exchequer. This bill had, there-
fore, been introduced, which repealed that part of the
schedule to which he had called attention, and gave such
a definition of a newspaper as would exclude from the
operation of the stamp duties publications published at in-
tervals of not less than 26 days. He trusted that no hon.
gentleman would on this occasion enter into the discussion
of the general question of what were called the taxes on
knowledge, and that he would be allowed to introduce and
pass through all its stages as rapidly as possible a measure
which was calculated to be of so much public benefit.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that he wished first to advert to
a point of form. The learned Attorney-General said that
he was going to introduce a bill to declare what a news-
paper was in such a way as to exclude from the operation
of the present Newspaper Stamp Act certain monthly pub-
lications. He (Mr. Gibson) thought, however, that the de-
finition which the learned gentleman had given would ex-
tend the operation of the Stamp Act to publications which
were not now liable to duty ; and if that were so, he presumed
that the house should resolve itself into a committee upon
the newspaper stamp laws before the bill was introduced.
He thought that the proposed bill would extend the opera-
tion of the Stamp Act, because, from the Attorney-General's
remarks it appeared that no papers were for the future to be
considered newspapers which were published at a longer
interval than once in 26 days, but that all papers published
at less intervals than 26 days were to be considered news-
papers. Now all papers of more than two sheets, and at a
higher price than 6d., might now be published more fre-
quently than once in 26 days, without being liable to
stamp duty. These 9 however, would be brought under
the operation of the Stamp Act by the new definition
given by the Attorney-General, and therefore he thought
that the introduction of the bill should be preceded by a
committee of the whole house. Great injustice had been
done to small newspaper proprietors throughout the country
whose papers had been suppressed by letters from the In-
land Revenue-office. When, however, they proceeded
against Mr. Dickens, a gentleman of great influence and
popularity, they were frightened out of their proceedings,
and brought in a bill to declare that these publications
never had been newspapers. What compensation did
they intend to offer to those persons whose papers
had been suppressed on the ground that they were
newspapers ? (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He was con-
vinced that when the new bill came to be discussed it
would appear that the new definition of a newspaper was
just as unsound as the old one ; and, if under it they prose-
cuted persons for publishing unstamped papers, they would
again be obliged to introduce a new declaratory bill. In a
future stage of the bill he should feel it his duty to point
out how completely inadequate this bill would be to define
what was a newspaper. In conclusion he begged to ask
the opinion of the Speaker upon the point of form to which
he had alluded ?
The SPEAKER said that no doubt, if the effect of the
bill was to impose an additional stamp duty, it should be
introduced by a committee of the whole home ; it was,
however, impossible for him to say whether this would be
its effect until it was introduced, and he had an opportu-
nity of examining it.
Mr. GIBSON asked whether it would not bo better for
the Attorney-General to keep himself on the safe side, and
to move the bill in a committee of the whole house ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL remarked that, in his
opinion, the bill would not bring within the definition of
newspapers publications not now liable to the stamp duties.
He would, therefore, take his chance, and introduce the
bill then.
Leave was then given to- introduce the bill, which was
forthwith brought in by the Attorney-General.
RAILWAY AMALGAMATION.

Kr. HENLEY then moved for a select committee to
consider the principle of amalgamation, as applied to rail-
way and canal bills about to be brought under the conside-
raton of Parliament. No doubt the house was aware
that there were at present public notices given for a very
considerable number of railway bills, he believed for 150 or
160,amongst which were more thantwenty which were called
amalgamation bills. Some of these were of so extensive
a character that the house had not hitherto had to deal with
similar questions of anything like equal importance. It
was not necessary for him to call the attention of the
house to the vast magnitude and importance of this
subject, because it would be evident to every one
who considered this matter at all, that, if these
amalgamations went on they would lay the foundation of a
state of things which at no very distant period would
force the house to consider whether the whole locomotion
of the kingdom should or should not pass, or bo liable to
pass, into one and the same management. For if the
amalgamations proposed this year were allowed to be car-
ried into effect, there would be !2:1 natural tendency on the
part of the groups thus formed to coalesce again, and to go
on in this way until all the railways were united in one
concern. The first practical question to which they had
to turn their attention was, what was to become of these
bills when they were sent, in the ordinary course of pro-
ceedings in the house, before the select committees ?
He thought every one would agree with him, that it
would hardly do to let matters of such vast importance
go for discussion to any five gentlemen without some
general view having been taken beforehand, and some
general rinciple or regulation having been laid down, by
which either in the shape of standing orders or other-
wise) t e attention of these several select committees
might be drawn to particular points, and they might be
desirre to express an opinion upon, or to call the
attention of the house to those particular points as
they arose in detail. Of course, if the house agreed to
appoint such a committee as he recommended, the first
point which they would have to consider
mation was the prelimi-
nary question whether these large amalgamations shou be
sanctioned or not. Of course it would naturally occur to
honourable members what power the railways had of effect-
ing these amalgamations by arrangements concluded with-
out reference to the house, and it would be a question for
them to consider whether such an arrangement, over which
they had no control, might not press much more severely
upon the public than if they were made under the sanction
and upon
the conditions laid down by Parliament. Sup-
pose it should be considered prudent not to negative amal-
gamations, but to place them under sound regulations, the
course of inquiry would naturally branch into three or four