The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-27 00:00:00

EVEN

TUEQ '*
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accept the services of volunteers, to be enrolled as rifle
clubs. What could be the objection to that enrolment?
Those were not a rabble, who could be regarded us the
enemies of law and order—they were persons who would
bring with them their own rifles—who would have a
portion of their time to devote to the necessary treinieg;
and they might have 100,000 such men.—(Bear, hear.)
Under all the circumstances of the case, he felt that he
ought to oppose the Bill of the Government. He egraud
with them that there was danger, and immediate danger.
But he said that the danger, such as it was, was net met
by the Bill. There was a clear and definite mode of
ipireovceede,dbieng;shchicihevotuhlo(ungohatr.)to adopt; while th© mi-
litia which they proposed to establish would, he be
Mr. W ALPOLE said—l agree with the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who has just addressed the House.
that there axe tero objections raised to this measure, one
of which has been argued more faintly, while the other
has been argued much, more boldly; but both of them, I
think, unfa. irly. In the first place, it has been denied
that there le any necessity for such el measure as this,
1 in order' that you may put this great kingdom in a pee-
per state of defence; and secondly it is contended, that,
even assuming such a necessity to exist, this is not the
mode nor is this the time in which that object can be
best secured. Now I believe the necessity is proved,
not from the circumstances to which the Hen. and
Learned Gentleman has alluded—not because there is
in n neighbouring country a supposed possibility, if
not even a probability according to the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman, of an immediate ievasioa of these.
free shores. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman
will recollect that a Militia Bill was proposed long before
the present President of France had been placed in the
position which he now occupies. It was proposed in
the year 1847 by the Government of Sir I.Z. Peel; it
was proposed by the . Government of the Noble Lord
(Lord J. Russell) in the years 1847 and 1848; end
it is, therefore, idle to contend that this measure is
now brought forward from a fear of any particular
circumstances which have recently taken place in
France.—(Hear, hear.) Then, how is that necessity
proved? Is it proved, in the first place,
by this fact,
which has been admitted by an Hon. and Gallant General
who opposed the measure, that the highest authorities,
naval and military, think that something ought to be done
for the better defence of the kingdom. Secondly, it has
boon admitted by successive administrations that it is a
duty cast upon the Government to see that the country
is in a state of defence, and they have
all found
that something more is required to ensure that pro-
tection than has hitherto been done. Thirdly, it is
proved by the circumstances to which the Noble Lord
the Member for Tiverton more than once in
the course of these debates forcibly alluded to, that
the discovery of steam, and its application to
to navigation, was a means by which an incur-
sion, if not an invasion, might be much more easily
brought within the range ne probabilities than ever
it was before, and one consequence of which was,
not withstanding the suggestions of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, that no navy, however powerful or nume-
rous, could be certain at all times safely, if acting alone
and without a covering force on the land, to protect you
from that invasion which you say may take place. These
are reasons which prove the necessity of the measure we
propose. But, then, it is said by the Gallant Gentleman
who moved the amendment, that if the Bill be read a
second time this day six months you can meet that ne-
cessity either by a re-distribution or re-concentration of
the army, or by drawing a portion from the colonies.
Sir, I think both these propositions have been met in the
course of the debate. I own I am surprised that any
officer, much less one of the great experience of the
Gallant General, should take the view that he has
adopted. I should not be surprised if a mere civilian
had warted
re 60,000 men, and plant them to meet 60,000 men lauded
on ou
say we will see ei bather these men
stheod thes andi dea that you might put upon paper
will not be ready to defend our shores. I think that if
the emergency should arise it will be found that you
cannot denude Ireland any more than you can the colo-
as well as this. The 20,000 men in Ireland
nies of their troops. You are bound to protect that
country
must remain there. The 5,000 men of the coast-guard,
a
shownby the Hon. Member for North
vissour revenue in war as well
NS—I did not say a word about
the coast-guard.
M
a iihlntasdp
to-night,
obafeneein.
g h wellt, n
1 ust
Sir DE LACY EVA protectthen, it was the Hon. Gen-
tletiaarn
Member, " No, ne."] Then with regard to the 10,000
dockyard battalion, all .these would be required for
WwAhoLPsClecLoEnd—Well,
thile,
amendment. [An Hon.
other purposes; and in short, I contend that the esti-
mate I made when I proposed the Bill was not only
not exaggerated, but that anybody who will go through
them more than once, will admit that they are under-
estimated, and I repeat again that you could not get
men in this way to meet an enemy. Then it is said
you can take troops from the colonies; but the same
necessity exists for keeping troops there as in Ireland.
You cannot leave the extremities undefended any more
than the citadel.--(Hear, hoar.) Prove to me that the
force in the colonies is too large, and I shall be quite
ready to bring them home. But that is a question which
should be discussed on its own merits, and not upon
this question. If you take the 40,000 men now in
the colonies, you will, I think, find it difficult to
put your finger on a colony from which you can bring
any great body of troops. In some of those colonies
our fellow-countrymen have gone out as emigrants, and
we are hound to protect them. In other colonies we are
surrounded by foreigners and require to be on the alert.
In others we are bounded by large and powerful coun-
tries, and it would not be safe to leave them undefended.
But the greater number of those will be found to consist
of military stations, such as Gibraltar, Malta, the lo-
nian Islands, the Cape, the Bermudas, Labuan, &e., and
the garrisons could not be withdrawn. I think I have
shown that a necessity exists for the measure I have
brought forward. I think I have shown that you cannot
meet that necessity either by a redistribution or a recon-
c3ntration of your existing forces, or by withdrawing
them from the colonies. Something was said by the
Hon. Gentleman opposite as to the best way of meeting
those matters, by encouraging and promoting the arts
of peace. We are, all for peace, if we can; and therefore
I think, as has been said before, the best way to main-
tain that peace is. always to be prepared for war.
There is no other way in which you can meet it; and as
for those who, as has been somewhat quaintly said,
think that by taking away all right and power of self-
preservation, and leaving mankind in as defenceless a
state as when they Cann) into the world, I wish them no
harm or scarcely greater than that when they are attacked
they should feel the force of their own argument,—
(Laughter.) Assuming that the necessity exists of pro-
viding some means of defence--what is the best means
of providing for our defence? There are several means
suggested. The lion. and Learned Gentleman suggests
an increase of the navy—other Hon. Gentlemen suggest
an increase of the army _,,,the Hon. Gentleman who se-
conded the amendment suggested an increase of the pen-
sioners—the Gallant Gentleman suggests an increase of
the volunteers, while the Noble Lord actually goes back
to the local imilitia. No*; with regard to the increase
of the navy. [Mr. RoebuCk—" I said the army." 3 Well
then I shall go to, the army; but I think
has been answered over . and over again. Suppose we
had come down to the House and proposed an increase
of 20,000 to the army,. what would you have said?
" Here is a constitutional Government. Here are men
who want a large standing army—here are people who
wish to assert military power in this country: That is
the way in which we should have been met, and the
old argument is now used, not because we want to in-
crease the army—..net because we intend to do so—but
because they want to oppose the Bill.—(Cheers.) But
there are two objections to this course—first, if you go
on increasing your army, other countries will do the
same—they will make preparations to meet yours, and
each will go on increasing to such an extent that at
length they will be an encumbrance to the country in-
stead of a defence. The second objection is still
stronger, and has been often and often urged. The
House of Commons would not stand for many years a
largo increase of the. army, unless it is shown that a
large increase of the army is wanted for an emergency,
and not to meet a contingency which may. not rise for
months or years. It was observed by the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman the late Sir Robert Peel that
this country has hot and cold fits as regards foreign
countries. During the hot fits, then the House was ex-
tremely liberal—a cold fit then came on, and there was
economy, even to
parsimony, Sir, that is not the way
in which a great country' like this ought to be governed.
—(Cheers.) If you wantnt force to protect yourselves,
you must have one that will be always ready and at hand.
You may say, as was said by the Gallant Colonel be-
hind me, " Well, you are going to call out the militia,
but that is not the object." It is to have an efficient
body of man, partly drilled, equipped, and ready, know-
ing their duties, and under the control of their officers,
in ease an emergency arises.
These are the grounds
which justify the establishment of a militia as contradis-
tingnished from those who, justify an increase of the
army. The next suggestion is a large addition to de
pensioners. We are told that there are 63,000
pensioners in England and Ireland. In England there
are 43,000, but what does the n
—ouse think is the age
of those . pensioners? Many of
them have been
disabled by wounds and long service; but out of the whole
43,000 not more than 1,860 are under the age of 40.
(Hear.) Over the age of 70 there are no less than 4,800.
Nor do I think it would be fair to draw these men away,
when you have an opportunity of calling in the services
of younger and abler men.
Mr. RICH - roes amidst loud cries of " Order!"
" Chair!" He was anxious to explain. The proposal
he made referred not to drawing pensioners from the &d
staff at present in existence, but those who would be
withdrawn from the regular army,
Mr. WALPOLE—I shall now proceed to the next
suggestion, the encouragement of the volunteers.
You could never have an efficient body of volunteers.
The principle of the volunteer system was that any
one or every one of theta were at liberty to go away
from the service. So long as enthusiasm and
patriotism, and the sense of immediate danger
prevailed, they would be efficient enough ; but the
moment it passes aya—l y wjll not say the moment their
patriotism passes away—the moment the enthusiasm
passes away the necessity of continuing the volunteers
is gone, and you .. l cannot rely upon them as an efficient
permanent force. .Bat it is .a ways a popular topic that
of drawing upon the spirit and enthusiasm of the people.
We all agree upon. that; but remember the words that
were used in the begairnig cf the debate; remember tl,e
words used by the Duke of Wellington in his important
letter, in which he says, " We hear a great deal of the
'spirit of the people of England, for which no man has a
higher respect than I have; but unorganized, undisci-
' [dined, without systematic. subordination, established and
well understood—this spirit, when exposed to the fire of
muskets and firelocks and the array of sabres and
bayonets of disciplined troops, would only expose them
to confusion and defeat. --(Cheers.) Now I go to the
lest proposition—namely, the proposition of the Noble
Lord for carrying. his owa plan of a local militia—(A.

P ILJ

laugh.) The Noble Lord will forgive me for saying that I
think ho has rather highly coloured his own plan, and f
pot our plan too much in the shade. Ho said that cur
plan is oppressively revere, while his is the contrary—
that his is well adapted to recurs men of spirit, courage,
and moral energy, while ours is merely calculated to eh-
tairi mercenaries, who would take the bounty and than
make their way to the United States. That is Ihe co-
louring the Noble Lord puts upon it; and I am sorry to
do away. with that imposing statement, but the tact is
not bore out be a careful comparison of V.:O two mea-
sures. First, with regard to the ballot. the Noble
Lord's Bill every man must be drawn by ballot, unless
there are a sufficient number of volunteers. In our plan
the men are not drawn for service, hut are invited by
means of a bounty; and therefore his plan is more se-
vere. By the Noble Lord's plan the men were drawn
from a limited number—in the first year between the
ages of 20 and 23, and in each successive year between '
20 and 21. By our play, if we get to the ballot, which
we probably never shall require, the men are drawn
between the ages of 18 and 35. It requires; eery
little reasoning to show that the pressure ot the system
over a smaller space must ho much more severe.— (lleen)
With regard to the discipline, I must say :hat I was
somewhat surprised at the statement made by the Noble
Lord. By his plan the men were to be trained 28 days
in the first year and 14 days every year. By our plan
they were to be drilled 21 days, with a power to extend
the time of drill to seven weeks in care of necessity;
and in the event of its not being neceshiry, or if there
was an extra demand for labour, then only three days in
the year. I thick that shows that our plan is not quite
so aavere. Then, with :agatd to the courage, energy,
and spirit of the Noble Lord's militia, earl the neklesa,
vagabond character ot ours, I should be glad to know
hew the Noble Lord by his plan gets his men endowed
with that high moral courage. He casts lots for them;
and it may fall upon the weak as well as the strong, upon
the immoral as well as the moral, and in fact there is no
guarantee that he can get these men of high moral cou-
rage. 'I do think that the probability is, that by our
plan the more bold, and independent, and enter-
prising men will offer their services, and probably wo
shall get a better class of men than those for whom
lots are cast. But there has been some mistake in
this part of the measure. It has been said over and over
again in this House, and outside doors, that here you are
throwing money to 5,000 or 6,900,men, who must be of
the most reckless character,. and who will decamp, and
there is no secuitiq that'we shall have their services
when they are wanted. But those who make the state-
ment cannot have read our Bill. It will bo found that the
bounty is given to the volunteers, subject to certain con-
ditions imposed by the Secretary at War. It will be
found that the names and places of residence of these
men must be registered and transmitted to the clerk of
the peace of the county. The Secretary at War has the
power of prescribing the mode in which the bounties are
to be paid, whether beforehand, or annually, or monthly.

All that is left to the discretion of the Executive Go-
vernment, so that they may not be imposed upon. I
hope I have disposed of the exception of the Honourable
and Gallant Gentleman that the bounty we are
offering will be thrown into the hands of men who
will decamp with it; but I think, independently
of this, that it is a great reflection upon the poeple of
this country that 80,000 men would be found to accept
the bounty of 41,, 51., or 61., for the sake of going away
with it,—(Hear, hear.) The whole of this line of argu-
ment, it is remarkable, has been used by the representa-
tives of what is called the popular side.—(Loud cheers.)
I do not believe it, nor do I believe that they believe it
themselves, but they use it as an argument against the
Militia Bill. I think I have proved that the Bill of the
Noble Lord is not so good as that which we have brought
forward, and was not so popular as ours will be with the
country, or as effective for its purpose. But I do not
speak without authority. Within the week I have re-
ceived a letter from the adjutant of a militia regiment in
Suffolk, stating that seventy men had already expressed
their intention to volunteer their services, and he had no
doubt that the regiment would be made up in a fortnight.
—(Chears.) The same statement had been made from
the midland districts; and I believe, if the Bill be
allowed to pass into a law, you will find, instead of that
oppressive ballot which has been so complained of at
public meetings, that there will be no necessity for hav-
ing recourse to it. And here I may remind you that
even if the number is not filled up in the first year, there
is no compulsion to put the ballot in force; but a per-
missive power is given by the Queen in Council that it
may be exercised. There is another observation that
has been made. It has been said that this is not the
time to bring the measure forward. But what would
have been said if we had not brought it forward and any
misfortune had befallen the country?—(Hear.) You
had passed a resolution that a Bill should be brought in;
and if we had not brought in the Bill, and war had been
declared by any possible contingency, you would have
blamed us justly, and have said that, as Ministers, we
deserved to be impeached.—(Hear, hear.) You have no
right, therefore, to complain of the Bill being brought
in.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, Ido not say that if you reject
the Bill we ought to put the militia laws into operation
by means in which the ballot would be resorted to with
all its rigour—(Hear)—but I do say that if the emer-
gency arose in which there would be necessity to have
recourse to that force, you would be bound—any Go-
Government would be bound—to suspend the suspend.
ing law relating to the militia, and to put it in force,
to obtain a I. ufficient number of men to defend tho
country.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, do not say that
this is an oppressive measure.—(Hear, hear.) It is a
measure mitigating the law.—(dear.) The language
of mitigation was thought of from the first section
to the hst.—(Hear, hear.) I defy you to find a
single severe clause in it !—(Hear, hear.) If that be
80, I leave the measure with some degree of confidence
to the judgment of the House and of the country—(Hear,
hear.) I think I have shown you that it was necessary
to make some increase of our national defences, and
that the other modes which have been suggested are not
so good as that we have proposed.—(He aa hear.)
I am confident you will find if you rejeot it, and there
shall be occasion of urgency, you would have to put the
militia laws in force with all the rigour of the ballot.—
(Hear, hear.) But if you accept it now—improve it if
you please in the Committee—you are alleviating and
mitigating the rigour of the laws, instead of enforcing
them on the people, bt cause you are by your regulation
proceeding upon the principle of voluntary enlistment
and voluntary service, instead of having recourse to the
compulsory conscription, to which in some circumstances
you might be otherwise compelled to have recourse.
Sir DE LACY EVANS rose, but was not allowed to
reply.
A division took place, and the numbers were—
For the second reading 315
For the amendment ••• 165
•••
Majority for the second reading ... —l5O
The annotnecement was received with loud cheers.
SECRETARY OF BANKRUPTS' OFFICE
ABOLITION BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
LOAN SOCIETIES BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
HIGHWAY RATES BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
REFRESHMENT TO VOTERS.
Sir E. BUXTON moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to allow candidates to give refreshment to voters at
county elections to a limited amount.
Mr. THORNELY opposed the motion on the ground
that such a permission would not be legitimately
exercised
Sir J. TYRELL said, to his own certain know-
ledge, there were two lawyers canvassing in Essex
upon the strength of this Bill,-(Laughter.) He thought
it would have been much better for the Hon. Gentle-
man to have postponed this measure until they had the
experience of the approaching election.
Mr. ADDERLEY supported the motion for leave to
bring in this Bill, because he thought it was a measure
most necessary to have passed before the approaching
election, with the view of drawing a legal distinction
between reasonable refreshment and bribery.
Mr. AGLJONBY said he was determined to give
every stage of this measure the utmost opposition, for
he believed, if carried, it would have a most demoralis-
ing effect upon the constituencies,
Mr. CHRISTOPHER said that it was most desirable
for Hon. Members to wait until they saw the Bill before
they discussed it. It was not fair that they should place
the electors in a worse position when they came to vote
than they were, in when they were at home. The mea-
sure was one, he believed, that merely proposed to give
the electors at county elections simple refreshment
when they travelled some distance to the poll.
Sir E. BUXTON said that the Bill merely proposed
that ;the voters at county elections should receive re-
freshment within the value of 2s. 6d.
The MASTER of the ROLLS declared 'his decided
opposition to the measure, which he thought was calcu-
lated to encourage a system of bribery, under the disguise
of what was called reasonable refreshment.
Lord GALWAY was understood to say that the
measure, if passed at all, ought not to be confined to
counties.
Sir B. HALL opposed proceeded with such a discus-
sion at that advanced hour of the night, and moved an
adjournment of the debate.
Mr. ANSTEY was opposed to the principloetwoefsthaet
measure, which would encourage the worst pre
elections.
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped the
wmotio: fosreesi
j t rhatn
ment would not be pressed to a division, seeing
only
have a
when the debate came on again, th9t 1
repetition of speechesupon the prlevt owl ()ans s
tohf a
eßpiilnl
twhich
lion. Gentlemen had not seen.
bad consulted upon the
many Hon. Members whom he
a
subject that some such measur
effective in suppressing
thatcorruptioenthatthees this
el o
ctinWestsld be most
Riding
re-
Mr. S. WORTLEY said.
to
es.
voters at th
trust e elec-
tions
d the
freshment tickets bad beenissue
by the consent otif. both p,
th
given to bring in arti
but that leave would he
debate would not bee Bialourocd
1 so that Hon. Members might
shortly have a
copy of it in their hands, and be better
enabled to form an opininotenofeditsthdaettathile issue of refresh-
s.
Mr. MULLINGS contended f
cor'rupn atexpense,.tio elections.- He
molt tickets would be and o and a ereat
preventive of treating avine
should vote for the introduction of the Bill.
Mr. BELL—
If treating was to be permitted at elec-
tions at all it bad better be done openly than sneakingly.
So far from increasing, ho believed the Bill would check
corruption at elections.
The motion for the adjournment Gf the debate was
then withdrawn, and the House divided on the question
that leave be given to bring in the Bill, when there ap•
peered—
For the motion
Against it ••
Majority

•• •• •

... -39

The Bill was subsequently brought in.
S moved that the petition of tho se-
Mr. MULLING
ciety of attorneys, solicitors, proctors, and others, incor-
porated by charters of King William the Fourth and
Qaeen Victoria (presented April 23), bo printed with
the votes.