The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-17 00:00:00

T.

./VEN ING,

TUESDAY

efficiency was. He hoped gentlemen had matur, rd a plan for
manning the navy. The present Bill gave them t a good op-
portunity of considering the subject. The rear on why he
had not brought forward a measure on the subj ect last ses-
sion was because the House was so much occupit d with the
mercantile marine measure.
Sir F. BARING thought he should be able , a an early
day to bring in a measure on the subject, and hop, sd the Hon.
and Gallant Member would therefore postpone oily
motion
with regard to it.
Mr. S. HERBERT bore testimony to the fact stated by
the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, that the opinion
which he bad expressed to-night on the subj jact of the
militia was no new opinion, for when he (Mr. He ,bert) held
the office of Secretary of War the Noble Lord frequently
questioned him on the subject. Those question ea had not
been without effect, for the late Government beta ate so fully
persuaded of the necessity of taking some steps i 3 the mat-
ter, that at the desire of the Right Hon. Baronet t ie Member
for Ripon, than Secretary for the Home Departm ant, and of
the late Sir Robert Peel, he (Mr. Hen test) drew
up a Bill for the revising of the militia laws, wit 6t the view
of bringing the subject before Parliament. Hew as glad the
Government had taken the matter in hand. It was most
impolitic and very uneconomical to place the con :try- in an
alternate state of panic and economy. He quite a greed with
the llon. Gentleman that the military service of t 3c country
should be organised, so that the greatest efficienc) • should be
had for the money expended. In a country like ; this, and
with the prejudices and feelings that existed on t he subject,
t was impossible to have a standing army so lard .st as might
be necessary. Recourse, therefore, must be he 4 to some
method by which the services of large masses mi ght be ob-
tained without the necessity of maintaining the en all the
year round. It appeared to him that 'some inc envenience
might arise from the Government having dealt . with the
local rather than with the general militia. The local
militia differed from the general militia in many points, but
the distingeishieg point between them was, the t the local
could not be moved out of their counties exce pt in cases
of invasion or of an apprehension of invasi on. There
appeared to him, therefore, this objection, that ex-
actly at the time when invasion was appreh ended, and
when negociations were most critical and delicab it it might
be wished to move troops down to the coast, whi ch, if done,
would look very like a declaration of war. If t he militia
were embodied on the principle of the regular in that
need not be done, but as the proposal stood, it would in a
case of emergency tend to the inconvenience he h ad pointed
out. He certainly regretted to hear the Right Ho D. Gentle-
man state that the Government were willing to • refer the
subject to a Select Committee. He thought th, 3 question
was one which the Government ought to deal wit It on their
own responsibility, and must protest against m eking the
House of Commons, instead of the Ministry, resp onsible for
the measure.—(Hear.)
Sir G. GREY said that the essential distinctio a between
the local militia and the general militia was that tl to one was
offensive and the other defensive. All that they so tight to do
by this proposal was to provide for the defence of ti se country
against invasion. During the last war the regul tar militia
was established in order to leave every soldier fr ee, not for
the purposes of internal defence, but for carryin; ; on a war
on the Continent; and it was well known to all that that
militia did duty in the United Kingdom and in Ireland as
soldiers, and was also available as a means o f recruit-
ing the regular army. But the present measure was pro-
posed with no such intention. No foreign war was anti-
cipated in which this country must take a part. If such a
case should recur Parliament would be called up, to to take
the means necessary to maintain the honour and i; oterests of
the country. All that they had at present in vie rev was to
provide a defence against foreign invasion, and the local
militia appeared to be a force suitable for that purpose.
The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that tl so calling
out the local militia might :endanger negociations and lead
to war.
Mr. S. HERBERT—The moving of them don a to the
coast from one county to another.
Sir G. GREY asked if the moving of the reguls 3r militia
would not have the same effect? The object the Govern-
ment had in view was purely defensive, and was; one of
which no foreign nation could justly complain, b :cause it
could not be used aggressively against any country..
Lord PALMERSTON wished to correct the Rig ;ht Hon.
Baronet as to a matter of fact. The Right Hon. Baronet
stated that towards the end of last year the regulr tr militia
did all the military duty within the kingdom, and! enabled
the Government to send all the regular troops abroa d.. Now,
the fact was that in January, 1814, there were of: regular
militia in the United Kingdom 82,000, and o f regular
troops 55,000. All the regular troops, therefore, were not
sent abroad.
Sir G. GREY did not intend to assert that ever y soldier
had been sent abroad at the period referred to ; b at it was
evident that if they had not had the 82,000 regul; tr militia
they must have had as many soldiers to supply their: places.
Mr. K. SEYMER hoped the Noble Lord would adopt the
suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the M; unber for
Wilts, and not refer so important a matter as the proposal
to a Select Committee. lie differed entirely from the Hon.
Member for the West Riding as to the feeling of t, he people
of England on the subject. He did not allude to the, opinions
of that portion of them who were members of peace societies,
or to their platform orators ; but to the great bulk of the
people.
Mr. OSBORNE felt the inconvenience of discuasing a
measure not actually before them. He should mot have
presumed to offer a remark at this stage of the measure if
he had not felt it necessary to express his dissent from
some observations made by an Hon. Member for svh om he
had a great respect, and with whom he frequently voted.
With the observations made by the Hon. Member for the
West Riding at the commencement of his speech he entirely
agreed. If danger was apprehended from a foreign. power,
the most natural thing to be done was to call home our
fleet lying idle in the Tagus. (An Hon. Member—lt has
come home.) He (Mr. Osborne) shotild conclude it was still
at the Tagus unless assured to the contrary by som a autho-
rity. But while he agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member
for the West Riding on the necessity of bringing home that
fleet, and protecting the Channel, he must say that he
never found his Hon. Friend so provoking or so aggressive
as when he talked of peace.—(A laugh.) He regretted it,
because in other things the services he had rende red had
been great, but on the subject of peace he seemed to
have a most unfortunate monomania. —(A laugh.) His
Honourable Friend had actually said, that so, great
was his confidence in the morale of tho French army,
he did not believe they would make an attack on this
country. Had his Hon. Friend confidence in troops wbo had
so lately made such fusillades on the Boulevards at Paris?
Did his lion. Friend suppose that St. Arnaud, or any of
their generals who bad taken part in the late scenes, would
hesitate to attack this country—they who had not hesitated
to break through all law, human, and he might say, divine,
and who had placed the leaders of their own Legislature
under arrest ?—(Hear, hear.) If his Hon. Friend had con-
fidence in such an army, he (Mr. Osborne) had not. He
was neither an alarmist nor an economist, but he looked
upon the Government as responsible for the safety of the
country. He should not now discuss the question of calling
out the militia; but he must say that no foreign power could
object to any measure which this country might take if
purely of a defensive character. His Hon. Friend the Member
for the West Riding had stated that one of his objections to
the proposal was the paying so email a sum as 10d. a day
to the militia so called out. Now, on that ground, he did
support the proposal ; for he was in favour of the cheapest
defence possible. He thought the Noble Lord had completely
answered the objections made with respect to Ireland, and he
agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Wiltshire, that the measure should not be referred to a
Select Committee, but ought to rest on the responsibility of
the Government.

Mr. COBDEN, in explanation, said he bad often observed
that if an Hon. Member was at a loss for arguments be often
found out one upon misrepresentations of what another Mem-
ber had said. His Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex
had charged him with having said that the French army had
too mach honour

.._
Dlr. OSBORNE—MoraIe.
Mr. COBDEN—had too much morale to invade this
country. Now, what he had said was this :—When Hon.
Gentlemen bad spoken of 12,000 or 15,000 French troops
landing on our shores without a declaration of war, he had
said that that would be buccaneering, and that he did not
think officers would be found in the French army to head
such an expedition—(Oh, 010_...
) without a declaration of war,
and that if they did, and were taken, they would be hanged
at once.
Mr. OSBORNE thought his lion. Friend had substan-
tiated what he had stated. lie knew not whether his Hon.
Friend held any
.shares in French railways or not.—
(Laugh
ter.) Did his Hon. Friend feel confidence in a man
who had violated the onstitution he had sworn to maintain.
—(Hear-) Really his lion. Friend's faculty of logical de-
duction seemed to fail him whenever the question of peace or
war WAS talked of.—(Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL, in a whisper across the table, in
answer to the Right lion. the Member for Wilts, was un-
derstood Select Committee,. for the purpose of its details being con-
sidered proposed to refer the Bill to a
course was for the House to discuss.
TRELAWNI said a few words in support of the
Mr• . •
Bill, conceiving it to be one which even a Radical Reformer
sidered; trohisapyritnheaipt
lh?eefonl
should support the Bill. He could not help
might sup,ol , .
the present opportunity to urge upon Govern-
ms. ALLOGh- said that considering the present state of
necessity of attending to the arms supplied to our
soldiers. He believed they were inferior to those supplied
to the troops of Prussia, France, Belgium, India, or Algiers.
He would refer Hon. Members to an article in the New
for November, 1841, if they wished for proof of
Quarterly
making
France
Govern-
ment nk ti ntghheue 5 e 0 f
the inferiority of the muskets of our soldiers to the jezails of
turn their attention to the subject. He
It was absolutely necessary that the military
theau t
believed authorities
prohibitionnuse3h.roeualselon why our arms were so inferior was to
against theimportation of arms of foreign ma-
nufacture.
which
ifound x
iisntetdh e
Mr. HUME felt bound
to correct the statement of the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. The Honourable
Gentleman had referred to an article written ten years ago,
and seemed to be unaware that inconsequence of the Com-
mitteewsehrilc,lircebabdadsbateen changed within the last five years,
on this subject every musket of the
British
the
and that the muskets used by the Affghan army had all
been changed. These things ought to be known, and the
public ought to be disaburd. of the opinion that the arms of
the soldiers were now inefficient. Sir
.H. Vivian had sent a
commissioned officer to every country in Europe to report on
of the best muskets.
Those arms had been brought home and tried, and the Ord-
nance department had directed the best of them to be
selected for the British army- The whole of the flint muskets
had been changed for percussion, and a vote of 150 0001. had
been granted for the supply
subject, and bring home specimens
of new. arms, , ~,
The lion. Gen-
tleman ought not, therefore, to frighten old women by stat-
ing that the muskets of our troops would not fire. With re-
ilitia was necessary
re-
gard to the present panic and the proposal before them, he
thought that some of the language whiela,haadndbreneen held on
lie
offfid not see the justice of
the subject would. almost warrant a fortification of the whole
coofaesntiraenndchtmbe,nbtusilodninegveorfylkhlailrlt.ellolftoawemr
et.rsoris twenty-One or let the whole of the militia laws be consolidated, and the
gmtfhliefibau,rcdaellnedonovn
twenty-two
years of age. Every one between the years of eighteen and
trhegrouwlairn
forty-five should the balloted f0r...7 (Haar, hear.) His age
would exempt him, but he only. wished he was again at that
age, even with the chance of being drawn for the militia.
Captain SCOBELL believed that so long as we kept our
supremacy at sea and had ships of a sufficiently
large size
to protect our shores the country would be safe. He was
not alarmed at the new element of steam, for it was of as
much use in defence as in attack. With the, power which
steam would give he thought it almost impossible for a
hostile force to approach our shores without. being attacked.
At the same time he concurred in the suggestions which had
been thrown out as to the prudence of calling home our fleet.
if due precautions were taken with respect to our navy, they
might rest assured that there would never be a hostile force
of any strength landed on our shores. It was no easy mat-
ter_ this, with a
to invade a country like. Population double
what it was in 1803. Our ships were equal in size to those
of any other nation, and our steamers, though susceptible of
improvement, could cope with those of any other power. We
had, also, the security that the embarkation of any force in the
iports of France must be a work of days, and would be known
to our consuls, and communicated to the Government here.
Mr. ANSTEY reminded the Hon. Gentleman that if our

population had doubled since 1803, it was one which had not
been used to arms, and was in that respect unwarlike. He
hoped that henceforth the pernicious system of passing au-
nually the Militia Suspension Bill would cease, and that re-
course would be had to the constitutional force of a militia,
a force sufficient to repel all dread of invasion, and yet not
sufficient to inspire the country with any of that alarm
which would arise from a large addition to our standing
army. He (Mr. Anstey) thought there ought to be no dif-
ference between our laws and those of the Channel Islands
in that respect, where all were bound to serve in self-de-
fence, and they were thus saved from being subjected to the
expense of maintaining a standing army. Therefore, with
a view of reducing our standing army, he should like to see
a similar system adopted, and he believed the establishment
of a good militia was cheaper and safer than any other sort
of force. Such a measure as the present he considered
was wanting, and when they came to consider the de-
tails in Committee, any objections that might be enter-
tained towards the proposition of the Noble Lord might be
fully stated.
The CHAIRMAN then asked whether it was agreed to
that they should move the House for leave to bring in a Bill
to amend the present militia laws?
Mr. HUME considered it would be better to repeal all the
old laws, and bring in a till consolidating them in one Act
of Parliament. He would ask the Noble Lord whether that
would not be the better mode of proceeding?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL suggested that it would be more
advisable, before entering upon any discussion, to wait
until they saw the Bill the Right honourable Gentleman
had spoken of.
The House then resumed.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave
to bring in the Bill.
SUITORS IN CHANCERY RELIEF BILL.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the second reading
of the above Bill.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY said that it was a most important
measure. It was one for the abolition of fees to certain
officers of the court, and at the same time it gave a power to
the Lord Chancellor to issue stamps from the stamp-office to
snpply the place of those fees. He wished to know from the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite what limit was
placed to the Lord Chancellor's power in respect bf that dis-
cretion placed in his hands ? It should be remembered that
they were thus parting with a power which was one of a
most serious character—namely, that of taxing the subject.
They knew that the Court of Chancery levied very large
sums annually. He also wished to know why it was
that one class of officers were to be paid out of fees or
stamps, and another out of the Consolidated Fund ? The
present was a time when he thought the whole financial
system of the Court of Chancery should be placed on a solid
basis. However, it appeared to him that the present Bill
would put that system in as complicated a state as it at
present stood, so far as raising money was concerned. Up
to the present moment the annual expenses of the Court of
Chancery were about 200,0001., and therefore, on consider-
ing a measure like that, he contended that the House was
bound to see that the money was raised in the best possible
manner.
The SOLICITOR-GENRAL said he had endeavoured,
in introducing that Bill, to explain, in the best manner he
could, the various provisions in it. He thought he had
clearly shown that its effect would be materially to simplify
and not complicate the present financial system of that
court. There were about 90 officers now, who were paid in
330 payments ; and, in lieu of that, it was proposed by the
present Bill to have payments made by means of stamps.
The Hon. Baronet asked him what limits it was proposed to
set to the power of issuing stamps. In reply he had to say
that the first object in view was to put an end at once to
such a number of small payments, and it was
advisable that they should be concentrated at some
particular point of each case. That was the reason why it
was proposed to give the Lord Chancellor the power of
fixing the time of taxation, and the exact time when it
would be most expedient could only be ascertained by ex-
perience and practice. It was said that some of the salaries
were to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, while others
were still to be continued out of the stamp duties. He did
not think any other arrangement would be a just one, for the
reasons he had stated in introducing that Bill to the House.
It was manifestly the duty of the Government to provide
for whatever expenses might arise from the necessity of ad-
judicating upon conflicting rights. The judges and officers
connected with the court, therefore, were properly paid out
of the Consolidated Fund. But there was another branch of
the Court of Chancery which was purely administrative, and
which did not come under the same reasons. Many persons
might wish, for their private convenience, to place their
affairs in the Court of Chancery; and it was only right and
fair that they should contribute to the expenses which their
own convenience or business caused. As he had stated when
he introduced the Bill, he believed that about 107,0001. a
year would be saved to the suitors by the proposed measure.
Sir J. GRAHAM did not rise for the purpose of opposing
the second reading of the Bill, having formerly given his ap-
probation to a similar proposition. On the contrary, he had
heard with much satisfaction the statement of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who brought it before the House. That
was not the moment to enter into the details of the Bill,
which should be done in Committee. He merely rose, there-
fore, to put a question to the Hon. and Learned Attorney-
General on the subject before them. The House would re-
collect that on the 27th of Jane last they had agreed to an
address to her Majesty, praying that two gentlemen not of
the legal profession might be added to the Chancery Com-
mission already appointed. The address further went on to
request " that her Majesty would be graciously pleased to
cause instructions to be given to the said Commissioners to
direct their attention to the business of the masters in ordi-
nary of the Court of Chancery, with a view to ascertain
whether the expenses of their offices might not be ma-
terially lessened, if not done away with."—(Hear, hear.)
In accordance with the prayer of that address, the Hon.
Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and himself (Sir
J. Graham) had been added to that Commission. In obe-
dience to the directions of the Commission, thay had turned
their attention to all the general matters connected there-
with, but particularly to that point which the House had more
especially noticed. The Commission consisted, amongst other
individuals, of two vice-chancellors, three members of the
Chancery bar, and several of the judges, oesides my Honour-
abfe Friend behind me (Hr. Henley), and myself. It would
appear that the composition of the Conimission was some-
what heterogeneous. Nevertheless, the report to which
they had agreed had been signed by all unanimously. They
had reported with respect to that particular point to which
he had referred, that no additional Masters in Chancery ought
to be appointed - ( Hear, hear)—that the masters now in office
should occupy their time exclusively in the winding up the
business at present before them—(Hear, hear)—and that in
future the judges in chamber should do the business formerly
performed by the masters. - (Hear.) Now he had been
delighted to see that in accordance with some of the para-
graphs of her Majesty's speech his Hon. Friend had announced
his intention of bringing in a Bill at once upon that subject.
He was fully aware of all the circumstances which would ne-
cessarily cause delay in introducing that Bill. He would
not, however, have spoken upon the present occasion were
it not that he had to state his surprise that the Lord Chan-
cellor of England had been reported to have expressed in
another place his hope that the recommendations with re-
spect to the masters, in the report of the Commissioners,
might not be adopted. He regretted that this should be so,
if it were so, for the recommendation in question he consi-
dered was the key-atone of all the rest.—(Hear, hear.) And
he thought that the carrying out of that suggestion would
be satisfactory to the people of England more than any
other suggestion made.—( Hear.) He rose, therefore chiefly
to ask whether the Lord Chancellor had made up his mind
en that part of the report, or whether or not it was approved
of by him? If there were any questions of salary or duty to
be considered, he could say that he would be one of the last
men in the world to see gentlemen occupying the positions
of the Masters in Chancery treated with anything like harsh-
ness or injustice.—(Hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it appeared to him
that the observations of the Lord Chancellor were misun-
derstood. That Noble and Learned Lord had been placed
in the unusual position of being obliged to make answers to
questions which were put to him with respect to the de-
tails of other measures. That was not regular or usual
when a future opportunity would be afforded for discus.
sing those details. If any impressions had gone abroad,
caused by the supposed statement of the Noble and
Learned Lord, that there had been any delay on the part
of the Government in carrying into effect the Bill founded
on the instructions of the Committee, he could assure the
House that no possible delay beyond the ordinary delay
had occurred. He could say that a most erroneous
pression, like that he alluded to, had been produced, if
any such existed. All that the Noble and Learned Lord in-
tended to state was, when asked whether he had definitively
made up his mind with respect to the whole of the clauses of
a Bill not before Parliament, that it was extremely incon-
venient for him to give his decided opinion on such a
matter, and he therefore declined stating whether or not he
had made up his mind on any particular point until the Bill
was actually before the House. But the Noble and Learned
Lord had stated,when the report was made, that he was most
anxious to carry out the Bill founded on the report of the
Committee of the House. It was only four days before the
assembling of Parliament that the report of the commission
had been placed in the Noble Lord's hands, and immediately
after he had given directions to have a Bill drawn in accord-
ance with that report. He (the Solicitor-General) had been
allowed to communicate the general opinion of the Commis-
sion before the final resolution had been come to; .and when
he had told him that the office of the masters was under
consideration, he had at first said that he would not recom-
mend their abolition; but as soon as he was aware what the
exact report of the Commissioners was, the Noble and
Learned Lord had given immediate directions for the prepara-
tion of a Bill in accordance with the recommendations of the
report. It was only when they came to frame a Bill that the
time had arrived to test its details ; and it was to that state
of things that the Lord Chancellor's remarks applied. Until
he saw the Bill in a certain shape he said he could not state
how far the Act would have his approbation or not. That
the Bill would carry out all the recommendations of the
Commissioners, he had no doubt whatsoever ; and he ceuld
assure the Right Hon. Baronet that there would be no delay
in its preparation.
Mr. HENLEY said he had heard with great pleasure the
statement of the Solicitor-General, supposing he had underi-f
stood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman properly. For
he caught the meaning of his words aright, it was this—that
the statement of the Lord Chancellor had reference not to
that particular point of the report of the Commissioners to
which allusion had been made, 'but to some details of a
mea-
sure which might be proposed to carry out the same object.
His mind was then so far relieved that Government were
determined to carry out the recommendations of the Com-
missioners. head of the
Sir G. GREY said his Noble Friend at
Government thought the best thing he
do would
to
to give as early a notice as possible of the intention
bring in a Bill founded on the report of the Commission.
With respect to that Commission, he would
o say thatassist-
legal the
portion of it had derived the greatest
ance from the other gentlemen who had been associated with
them.—( Hear.)
and ordered to be
The Bill was then read a second time,
committed. BILL..
ST. ALBANS DISFRANCISEMEYT
Sir GEORGE GREY moved for leave to bring in a Bill,
of which he had given notice for the disfranchisement_ of
the Borough of St. Alban
The Right Hon. Baronet said,
it would not be necessary that he should state,
at any Tho length,Hseoo
the grounds upon which he made this motion.
that
sttook
which
ha
could perfectly well recollect the proceeding
place at the last inquiry, and were aware in conse-
quence of the obstacles thrown in the way of a complete
investigation, it passed an Act in the course of last session,
the preamble of which stated, that corrupt practices had long
prevailed in the borough of St.
Albans. BythatfAorctoatlhlinrege
Commissioners were appointed, with full powers
witnesses and examining documents. Of the complete success,
of that Act, and of the Commission appointed under it, they
had the most gratifying proof in the book now before him,
which contained the evidence they had taken, together with
their report upon it, and which had been laid before Parlia-
ment. The Commissioners stated that they commenced
their inquiry with a view to ascertain whether those cor-
rupt practices were confined to few cases only, or whether
they were the result of a systematic course of corruption,
which had long prevailed in the borough. They found that
it was general, and was the usual accompaniment of an
election for the borough Members. He would not trouble
the House with reading extensive extracts from their report,

17, 4652

as it had been in the hands of Members for a considerable
time, beat would merely allude to some of the more striking
facts which they had detailed, and which were abundantly
established by the evidence. They stated that the number
of electors, consisting of 101. freeholders and scot-and-lot
voters, was 483, of whom 380 voted. They gave the sum
expended upon the election as 37,000 e, of which they
calculated that at least three-fourths was spent in
bribery. Politics, they said, had no influence whatever
in these elections, great numbers of the voters being
ready to dispose of their votes for money placed in their
hands. The Commissioners, at page 27 of their report,
added some other matters, and amongst these they
exonerated the gentry and clergy from having partici-
pated in the corruption. He passed over, however, that
portion of the report which related to individuals ; as it was
in evidence before the Commission, and as the Act of Par-
liament indemnified them, no proceedings would be taken
against them on account of their statements. As regarded
the practice itself, the Commissioners' report states that it
had long prevailed in the borough of St. Albans, and that
bribery to a great extent bad been systematically carried on.
The conviction which must force itself, there-fore, on the
mind of any one who gave attention to this evidence, and
report was, that corruption in this borough had prevailed to
an extent almost unprecedented, and for a considerable
length of time. That being se, the only cure they bad to
propose was the disfranchisement of the borough. This was
not a new course. It was the remedy which Parliament had
had in contemplation, in the event of the result proving such
as it had proved. He, these fore, trusted that there would be
no objection to the motion he had to snake, viz., for !cave to
bring in a Bill for the disfranchisement of the borough of St.
Albans. He should not at that tine take notice of the
amendment of his Hon, and Gallant Friend the Member fur
Westminster; as he understood that tee Hen. and Gallant
Gentleman did not intend pressing it.
Sir D. L. EVANS believed there were ample grounds
for the motion which he had proposed to bring forward, but
it,he was aware that a technical objection would be made to
s i o n
inquirehad sat
nt to
o inquire
t h e referred;
corruption
i
btt ht e
therepracticestha t
h hadad
been
of
en a that
the
borough
Committee
n towhich his i
tomotion
taken place in Harwich, anti it was his impression that if a
commission were appointed to inquire into the practices
that prevailed there, instead of a lesser cssee than at St.
Albans, greater corruption would be found in war ich, and
more ingrained in the constituency. The Committee over
which the Hon- and Learned Member for Sheffield had
pre-
sided had done all that a commission appointed bthe
y
Crown could do, and therefore, instead of proposing es an
amendment on that occasion the motion of which he had
given notice, he should to-morrow (this day) move that no
new writ should be issued for Harwich without ten days'
notice, which would afford an opportunity of taking the
sense of the House upon the propriety of that borough being
disfranchised.
Mr. SEYMER said, that the borough of Harwich being
unrepresented in that House—(Cries of " No, no")—and he
having been the chairman of a Committee that had sat to in-
quire into the votes given on the election for that borough,
he must say that of bribery and corruption there was only a
very slight-trace—he could not say more—(A laugh)—there
was one case iu which some thought that the election was
influenced by corrupt practices, but that was the wily case.
He did not say that the Members were immaculate
(" Hear," and laughter),—but at all events they were pru-
dent—(Laughter),—and that prudence ought to serve them
in good stead. There was no proof of corruption, and,
that being so, he thought that, having no representative
in that House, the borough ought to have some considera-
tion.—( Hear.)
Mr. BAGSHAW said that no one doubted that up to 1841
the greatest possible corruption did exist at the elections for
the borough of Harwich; but he emphatically denied that
anything of the sort had taken place since that time.—(A
laugh.) Could anything show it more than the circumstance
of Sir J. Hobhouse's having been nominated for the borough,
and being returned for it without having ever seen the place ?
but, unquestionably, from that time to the present, nothing
11 in the shape of corruption had existed in the borough, and
he was delighted to find that the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Westminster would move for a commission to inquire into
the corrupt practices alleged to prevail there, as the bad odour
and bad character of the borough would be at once ob-
literated, and it would shine out with greater lustre than
before.—(Laughter.)
Sir J. WILLOUGHBY had himself not long since repre-
sented Harwich, and he could testify there was, at that time,
nothing like the corruption existing in the borough which
was imputed to it on the other side of the House.
Mr. ROEBUCK wanted to prelude a sham. There could
be no doubt that downright corruption existed at Harwich,
but the point was, that the House should keep in mind that
there was no real difference between the corruption of the
poor, and perhaps ignorant voter, who sold his own vote for
a 51.-note, and the whole sale corruption of the rich proprie-
tor, who sold his nomination borough for 2,000/.—(Hear,
hear)—except, indeed, that the criminality of the latter to-
wards the country was the far greater of the two. He
trusted that this point would not be lost sight of in the pro-
gress of the new Reform Bill, and that the House would not
permit the sham of disfranchising a corrupt borough, because
a couple of hundred men did there in small what the rich
nobleman or commoner did in large, and on bis own sole ac-
count,, in his nomination borough, and let the nomination
boroughs escape.—( Hear hear.)
Lord D. STUART did not conceive that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Harwich had at all mended the matter on behalf of
the nest of corruption which he represented. He heartily
concurred in his Hon. and Learned Friend's hope, that the
House would get rid of nomination boroughs as well as of
simply corrupt boroughs.
Mr. BELL rose, and was loudly called upon to proceed,
which he was about to do, when he sat down again, and said
he would reserve what he had to say.
Mr. WHITESIDE asked whether the attention'of the
Right Hon. Baronet had been directed to that part of the St.
Albans evidence which stated that Government places had
been the reward of persons who had committed corruption on
behalf of reform candidates? (Hear.)
Sir G. GREY was ignorant of any such rewards having
been given by the Government to which he belonged for
any such corrupt practices, but the evidence referred to
having been given on oath it was not for him, of course, to
question it.
Lord C. HAMILTON wanted to know whether Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, who had such a horror of corruption in
relation to all who sat on the benches opposite to them, had
ever heard of Mr. Coppock—(Hear, hear)—that remarkably
active member of the Reform Club—(Hear, hear)—who,
whenever a new writ was moved, was sure to repair by spe-
cial train to the vacant borough, for purposes which the St.
Albans evidence fully developed. (Hear, hear.) He should
be glad to know whether the virtuously indignant members
of the Reform Club had ever, individually or collectively,
taken any steps to put a atop to the operations which Mr.
Coppock had notoriously been engaged in for the last 15
years.—(Hear, hear.) _

Mr. ROEBUCK begged to inform the Noble Lord that he,
for one, had had nothing to do with Mr. Coppock in any of
his elections, and that Mr. Coppock would never have dared
to come where he was a candidate, pretending to be on his
side. He had stood always on his own ground ; and, as to
his expenses, which in relation to his elections had never
gone a farthing beyond the bona fide legitimate expenses, he
had, in each case, been distinctly told by those who had
elected him that he was in no degree to consider himself
called upon to meet them.
Lord C. HAMILTON—Is not the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman a Member of the Reform Club?
- -

Mr. ROEBUCK—Yes, I am ; but I never go there. (A
laugh.)
Mr. SPOONER said, that the question which had been
put to the Government merited a fuller and more serious
answer. The Right llon. Gentleman had probably not
missed this evidence of Mr. Coppock :
" You have told us, which no doubt is the fact, that you
have had great experience with regard to contest in dif-
ferent boroughs upon the Liberal side; have you, as a
matter of fact—we do not ask any details or any names—
exerted yourself to obtain places for those who have served
you on those occasions, either under Government or else-
where?—l have exerted myself on every occasion to serve
those to whom I considered myself indebted. But in that
particular way of obtaining a place ?—Not more in that way
than in any other way. Have you in that way ?—I have
taken people into my own office ; I have placed them in
other people's offices; I have got them situations on rail-
ways, and I have got them situations anywhere. Have you
got them situations under Government in any one case ?—I
certainly have been the means of recommending people to
situations under Government. And they have obtained
them ultimately ?—I have had clerks in my own office who
have had situations from Government. That is rather
avoiding the question ?—Forgive me for saying this; you
are putting a question to me upon a subject as to which, You
know, there is a positive legal punishment attached to it;
you may say that here nothing will attach to it; but, as in
connexion with St. Albans 1 negative it entirely, I really
think you should not ask me that question so generally as
that; but I will answer it if you choose, The certificate
that we shall give you will hold you harmless 'll a?
-"I am
sequences of any sort or kind, civil or crimina
following
aware of that. [The short-handwriter reads the
question Have you, as a matter of fact--I
details or any names—exerted yourself to
those who have served you on those occasions either under
Government or elsewhere?']—Certainly Ive exerted my-
habtdaoin not ask any
places for
my-
self to serve parties who have served
Pthem
country would believe to be by this evidence the
If the Government did not remove thmeeiin session produced
fore-
most among the promoters of corruption.
Sir G. GREY did not know what other answer he could
give than he had already given.
Mr. BELL had desired, on various occasions, when this
unfortunate a matter—(Laughter)--had been before the
House, to take part in the debate, but he had always been
dissuaded by some person or other, so that for the lastdwghhitcer.ff he t had
n
months he had an mcubus hanging over him,
e
gmaiwandy— (Lau
efstoo , and he had
choaudrnseo
hoepphoardtutnakitym of plheaxdbainn
sueein
been supposed either indifferent on the matter or unable to
affordagin aw satisfactory s faabcotuo
about
y to oexplanationffer some
ofremarks to the House, it
his conduct. Just now,
had been suggested to him to hold his tongue—(A laugh)—
but, he was determined now to act
had admitted the expediency of his and to take his own course.—(Rearhssr,
upon his own judgment,
and a laugh.) He
pending, and while a numberabstaining from address-
ings abs
the House on the subject
self, engaged in this unluc while a judicial inquiry was
ky o f
an othersße t
io
n personswer
were
capable besidesh i him-
self,
being compromised
thethe enxpeluasnea.tioßnefworheichhe harue.dhaadny
; but no suchtr
reason's now existed for
troestmraaiknein
there d
restraininggto rhinlognagboduesti
borough of St. Albans, :he wished in some degree, at all
events, to clear himself from the extreme severity of the
accusations which had pressed upon him, and from the im-
putation that it was with his eyes open he had plunged
into this affair, and knowing all the circumstances of the
case before him.—(A laugh.) It was all very easy for gen-
tlemen, looking for it on ground all the details of which had
been by close research mapped out, to point out what should
have been avoided, and where the difficulties and dangers
lay, but he had had no such advantage when be set out in
the matter.—(A laugh.) It was perfectly clear that he had
committed one grave error, and that was in going down to
St. Albans at all.—(Great laughter.) But how was he to
have known that the belief on which he had been led to act
was a fallacy ?—(Laughter.) Was there not ground for him
to suppose that, in going down he should not be opposed,
seeing that the three parties in the borough had each,
through its representative, requested him to go down? -
(Laughter. ) In his ignorance of the borough and of the
politics of the people there, when he found all three parties
saying they were willing to support him, surely it was not
for him to suppose that any disputes about secondary mat -
ters—(Laughter)—would set any of these people against him
when he had got down amongst them. (Laughter.)
Having once embarked on the battle-field, having pledged
himself to go to ' the poll, having canvassed the. electors
vigorously in order to secure a position as soon as pos-
sible—(Great laughter), —it was too late for him to
retreat; there was no opportunity of retracing his steps,
or of extricating himself from the dilemma iu which he
found himself. He must confess, he had not been long in
the borough before some very strong suspicions came into
his head—(Laughter)—but then he had not conceived it to
be his duty to ferret out all the details of the proceedings'—
(Great laughter.) He understood it was not usual for can-
didates to dive into every act of every agent whoe
might be
employed—( Laughter)—but that it was sunP.Y
I th business
of the candidate to canvass the constituency, in order to in-

me;

sure his election; and this was the course which
(Laughter.) He had since found himself to have b een Badly
deceived in various respects. For instance, there were
1 electors who had questioned him and cross-questioned him
for half an hour together, and when the electors so quest ion-
ing him had gone away as his supporters, be had imaEined
i that he had done t ;all by his arguments-(Laughter)-
whereas it had transpired in evidence that these parties had
been corrupted, and had merely interrogated him and argued
with him in order to keep him in the dark as to their ps'oceed.
ings.-(Great laughter.) There was one particular consi-
deration which had not made him a free agent, though he
might have had strong suspicions that something im-
proper was going on-(Laughter)-that he was in the field
and occupying a place which would otherwise have been oc-
cupied by another individual belonging to his party, to the
Liberal party-(Laughter) -and he was told he was respon-
sible for the principles on which he went down, that was to
say, Liberal principles- (Laughter)- and he could not,
therefore, back out, even had he been so disposed.-
(Laughter.) He might mention that when he spoke of going
down to St. Albans on the principles of " a party," he was
not alluding to the Government, for the report that he had
gone down as the Government candidate had no foundation
id fact, and it was right that he should take that opportunity
of contradicting it. He fully exonerated the Government
from any participation whatever in the transaction, and in
fict, it was the Government that bad been pursuing him
from the period of the election to the present time. More-
over, it was they who were bringing in a Bill to disfranchise
whatever
to
say
ihoe
he
ixs oenl
oe
cr ad h
Lma forgo
hint
obra)v i nig
ea
the borough and from that and every other circumstance,
had ya
d participationnothing
her
respecting himself in this matter, but with regard to the
borough, lie felt in a rather responsible and delicate posi.
tioa -first, as the representative of the borough, and,
secondly, as having a case to defend for which it
was impossible to offer a defence.-(Renewed laughter.)
But still, that being the case, he thought that
the only course which he ought to pursue was to
point out the injustice of carrying to such an extreme
a measure with reference to one single borough, when it had
been proved before the Commission at St. Albans that the
same system generally prevailed in a great many other bo-
roughs throughout the kingdom. The object of the Com-
mission had been to investigate the system of corruption
and to take means of putting an end to it, and he must say
that the Act of Parliament which had been passed for that
purpose was the most sensible and efficacious measure which
had ever been passed in reference to bribery and corruption
-(Hear)-and he believed that if a similar Act were ap-
plied to every other borough in the kingdom, it would do
more towards putting an end to those practices than any-
thing that had ever been done.-(Hear, hear.) He must
say, however, if that House, instead of taking that general,
fair, and consistent course, were to be content with
making St. Albans the scapegoat, and grafting' upon it
the sins of every Member of that House, upon the suppo-
sition that by exterminating that one borough the House
would be left perfectly pure, that such a course would be
not only a delusion, but an injustice.-(Hear, hear.) A
few days ago he had gone over the House of Correction-
(Loud laughter) - and he saw there 150 prisoners. He
knew at the same time that there were about 40,000 outside
as bad as those who were in, but rather more cunning.
Now, if Lliemt 40,000 .trer. to linid a mee • trig, and to pass a
resolution that, for the sake of making themselves stand well
with the public, they should hang those 150 who happened
to be in the prison, then, he conceived, that those 40,00()
would be taking a course similar to that which the House
was taking in disfranchising St. Albans, and leaving all the
other boroughs of the kingdom as they were.-(Laughter
and cheers.) He considered that under these circumstances,
as representative of the borough, and being sure that unless
he advocated its cause, other people would not, it was quite
proper that he should come forward and oppose the proposed
Bill to the best ofa his ability, and he put it to the con-
sciences of other Honourable Members who knew what
elections were better than he, whether it were right to
single out St. Albans in this manner? He was told that
the extravagance which he had indulged in was such as
ought to have left no doubt upon his mind of the nature of
the transactions that were going on. He begged to say that
at the time of the election he was not aware of the amount
that was being expended, and even if he had, comparing it
with the amounts which he constantly heard spoken of,
there was nothing extraordinary in it. He had heard it
said, " Here is an Hon. Member who has paid 60,0001. for his
election," and " Here is another who paid 50,000/.," and
another he had himself heard state that his election had cost
him 40,0001., while they all knew that elections costing from
5,0001. to 10,0001. were as plentiful as blackberries. Now,
he had had the excitement of an election, the luxury of a
petition, and the further indulgence of a commission, and the
sum total of his expenses had not exceeded 4,3001.-(Cheers
and laughter.) Under these circumstances, he thought it
was unfair to charge him with any extraordinary extrava-
gance; and Hon. Members who knew what elections were
ought to know better than to be so exceedingly severe on
I St. Albans.-(Laughter.) It was true that the system did
appear to be exceedingly corrupt when every detail WB3
made clear, but how would it be, if the same principles were
applied to cases where 60,0001. had been expended ?-(Hear,
hear.) He was not desirous of making any personal remarks,
but he thought it only fair, having been singled out in this
way, in consequence of the inexperience of himself and the
imprudence of those who had conducted his election (which
constituted the chief distinction between himself and
others), that he should represent the circumstances of
the case, and do all he could to place it in a fair position.
It certainly appeared remarkably corrupt for a person to
pay a sum of money for his election, but ,they found others
who, instead of paying a sum down, spread it over seven
years, and at the end of that time walked over the course
and entered the House perfect patterns of purity. What
difference, he asked, was there in principle between these
two cases?-(Hear, hear.) If an agent at an election
treated an elector with a mutton chop and a glass of ale,
he was liable to a penalty, and the Member might be un-
seated; but if a Member of Parliament, during the period
of the Exhibition, for example, issued cards to all the
electors, inviting them to his mansion in town to enjoy
his hospitality, even though it were in anticipation of an
election, that was perfect purity and perfect hospitality.-
(Hear, hear ) He might mention many other cases where
the principles were precisely the same, although they differed
in appearance. - (Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP had been charged with corruption
because he had exercised Christian charity towards a
Christian people. He had been charged with giving away
coals. lie had done so, and he would do it again.-(Hear,
hear.) But what was the situation of the Government?
Ile talked of Greenwich. Had the Government had nothing
to do with that election?-(Hear, bear.) Would the Noble
Lord say that he had not sanctioned many acts which
amounted to bribery, and that he had not unduly Influenced
boroughs and counties-aye, and a city, too? The tact was,
that the Government found fault with humble individuals
for acts of charity, and if they would not vote for the Noble
Lord's party they soon got a broad hint that they were not
wanted.-(A laugh. )
Mr. ANSTEY said there were two Members of that
House who were connected with that borough, the fate of
which was to be decided by the Bill. One of them, the
junior Member, had been heard at considerable length,
and he thought it only just that the senior Member, far
more experienced in the affairs of the borough, should also
favour the House with a statement. He believed there
were other boroughs in a predicament similar to that of St.
Albans, and thought that all might be provided for by a
general Bill.
Mr. REPTON, in answer to a very general call from both
sides of the House, said that the House having, daring the
last session, appointed a commission to inquire into the cir-
cumstances connected with the last election for St. Albans,
and that commission having made its report, he felt that no
course was open to him but to bow to that report.-(Hear.)
that the He thought the report perfectly just, and t
Commis-
sioners had come to a fair and proper can l Hear
)
As regarded his own share in the matter, he had only to say
r the second time to re-
that in 1847 he became a candidate fo
d
present St. Albans in Parliament, an
sdeterminedin to resist
bribery and corruption by every means
his agent. sowlelre. e declined it even when strongly on the day of polling thatworlit
to the poll, and felt convinced8
mhi behalf. The Commissioners put-
bery was being used and he answered frankly that he be-
that question to hoton
ractised.-(Hear h ) T ear. en days
lieved bribery had bee P
bills were brought to him, and his legalnotbelieving that
he was
adviser told him
honour h d• h
y then,lse arged them immedi-
bound to pa
th declared publ. lc y and ivately that he I would
again enme a candidate for St. Albans
not
bew
upon by the
house for
.-(Hear, hear.)
He had been called
a statement; he
made it, and he
had now had nothing further to say, but that
ongentleman the word of a he had stated the truth.
Mr. G. THOMPSON said that it was hardly fair to
Euro Mr. Coppock so severely, while they left out many
others who had been engaged in precisely similar practices.
As a member of the Reform Club, and knowing a great
number of its members, he (Mr. Thompson) could say that a
very large proportion of those members were totally uncon-
nected with Mr. Coppock, and knew nothing of his proceed-
ings.-(Hear, hear.) To the majority of the members of the
club, the revelations of the St. Albans Commission were en-
tirely new, but admitting that the fact had not been so, he
believed there were other associations not very far off that
countenanced not very dissimilar practices. In short he bad
been told that it was not a very unusual thing for the gen-
tleman who had been namedito confer with a gentleman
holding a similar position to himself in the association to
which he had alluded.-(Hear, hear.) It appeared that
such a system had prevailed ever since the passing of the
last Reform Bill, and had been found absolutely necessary.
What he was anxious to see was suck a measure originated
as should for the future avoid all necessity for such instru-
mentality.-(Hear, hear.)
Leave was then given to introduce the Bill.
MR. COPPOCK.

On the question that the Bill be brought in by Sir G.
GREY and the ATTORNEY.GRNERAL,

--.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he wished to say a few words upon
this, for the Government were effected by it. As:far as they
had evidence upon the subject, this Mr. Coppock was in the
immediate confidence of the Government.—(Loud cheers
from the Opposition.) He was informed that the Noble
Lord opposite (Lord C. Hamilton), who had put a question
to him, had not intended to imply that he (Mr. Roebuck)
was at all implicated with Mr. Coppock, or that Mr. CAT-
pock had dared to interfere with him, but merely that he
was connected with a club of which Mr. Coppock also was a
member; and upon that he asked,—" Have you, who arae.a
purist, done anything, after the declaration that was mad
form Club ?" His answer to that question
by Mr. Coppock, to get rid of him as a member ofwimthe
thliae-t
the Reform
in social life he was a member of
twice a- ear ;
Club. He went there once or perhaps
connected with it, beyond taking
he asked Hon. Gen..
but, of the internal working of that club, or of anything
but,
table, he knew nothing; and
tlemen present whether the appealm aich had been mad
which
Edwards nothing
said
that f
there that
"11elwr. Coppock saiddvivat
ipbrloeomytmheerntotpoposbe
ig:v en
to him was a fair one? He
to put Mr. Cop Peek to
went on there ; but he was now going.
the test, and the Government 111s°_r.
he was employed by somebodY•
was an insinuation of a Government
to his son. He wanted Mr. C"PP° , the ° (Pointing to
satisfaction of examining .
the bar of the House, 1 ion).
should like to have that satisfaction if
—(Hear, hear.) lie s't for he did not belie
the House would or J.
- anitu newed cheers fr
tvernloudmecankteeetrmso
ve in the purity
He bad not had the saamtisfa
of the Govern at
e _ . om the Opposition.)
they were working a sham,
He believed that and that they
St. Albans, a sort of scaegoat to be sent into
were making o take off the sins of the Coppock.
he wilderness t . Administration. He
twanted to know if the House would support him in bring-
ing Mr. Coppock to that bar, in order that they might have
a different sort of revelation from that which had been eli-
cited by the Commissioners, capital as that was—(Hear)--..
but still they might reap some advantage from it. He wished
the House to support him in that amendment, and he felt
sure the Government would not oppose it—(lronical cheers)
—because, if they did, it might be insinuated that theyknew
themselves to be guilty—(Cheers)—and he was sure that
they would not allow such an insinuation to pass.—( Hear )
He wished to bring Mr. Coppock to the bar, in order
to learn from him what his communications with the Go-
vernment were, and who it was that told him that he had
the power to dispense the favours of Government. Mr.
Coppock would no doubt be able to enlighten them upon
those points. Hon. Members were at present in the dark on
the subject. Would they allow the House to go into Com-
mittee upon this Bill in the dark ?—(Hear, hear.) Would