The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-17 00:00:00

SUN,

In the present year not more than 30,000 men would be
required, and the expenses altogether would he under
200,0001, but a larger sum would betaken in order to meet
contingencies. Places would be exempted where there
WI" a large police force drilled and armed, and
Where volunteer corps had been formed.—(Hear, hear.)
In answer to Mr. REYNOLDS,
for
J. RUSSELL said he meant to bring in 0110 Bill
I England and Wales; another Bill would be required
Mr So
%land. He did not mean to raise a local militia
In Ireland.
r. tion REYNOLDS did not know whether the exemp-
of Ireland was intended as a boon or a compliment.
aughter.) He could not certainly accept it as a
toij• i„;P1 ftugu4lient; and certainly if there were need of a local
1,,741 in England, there was still greater need in Ire-
Is where the coasts were more exposed to danger.
In answer to a question from Sir J. PAKINGTON,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the militia of each
/313unty would not be moved from its own county ex-
eept by its own consent, or in case of a foreign invasion.
`r Ur. HU ME had heard the statement of the Noble
-I,ord with great regret. He saw no reason for any
augmentation of the military force, and if there was
t
b° any increase, ho thought it would bo more
,▪ tvantageous to increase rho regular army.—(Heo,r.)
o thought it would be morally add physically injurious
40 the people, dragging them from their home and ens-
-1)10
Meru and engenderiwg iu them military habits and
that
The idea was that we were to have a militia iu order
the
the regular troops might be ready to be sent out of
" country. But where were they to be sent to? Did
213 Y one fancy teat a British soldier would ever again
seen on the continent us an aggressor.
Certainly not, and ho thought that this was the
111. St step of a return to that system which had plunged
the
country into an enormous debt. He should certainly
oppose the proposition to every extent in his power, and
c would give them notice that at a future stage he
should move that every mall called out for the militia
should ever after be entitled to the suffrage.
Colonel THOMPSON could not help thinking that
the country would be too glad to see the Government
doing anything to bo ready, not for what sensible and
intelligent men should do, but for the attempts of hot-
iheadel and rash men. He saw by the public journals'
t'lt the general officers of the French army had re-
ceived orders to hold themselves, both materiel and per-
"nel, ready by the 22d inst. He supposed the order
had reference to the present Ruler of France declaring
tirnaelf Emperor. He might call himself Emperor or
4tatnamouchi if he chose, but if he was master of his
_tlade he would go on until he was stopped; and seeing
yile hostile designs he was said to entertain against
theeigiura there was enough to convince the country of
propriety
of heing prepared for any contingency.
Colonel SII3THORP said that last year when everybody
thought of nothing else but the Great Exhibition—
Laughter)—the French Government and ours were " hail
fellow well met," and French visitors to this country, whe-
ther military or civilian, were allowed to enter and inspect
We dockyards, the Tower, and all the arsenals. Nothing
as spoken of then but reform and retrenchment; now they
:Tem told it was necessary to be prepared for hostilities, and
!fleY were to have a force created which was to add to the
Itsiiluence of the Government and heavily increase the taxa-
e° of the country. From the low tone of voice in which
v, the
noble Lord spoke he had found it impossible to learn
Ze whole of the provisions of the plan, and certainly the
• aner and tone in which it was brought forward threw
'ere.so,at suspicion over the scheme. The old militia might be
Zed out at a less expense, and would constitute a more
'Lcient force.
Sic 11. VERNEY bore testimony to the orderly character
ordisciplined bodies of men generally, and, as an instance,
reotioned that he know a regiment which, at its own ex-
„nos supported a library of 6,000 or 7,000 _volumes. He
eipu(l,Cota however, believe that a force could be made effi-
eo„Tiuy a fortniht's or a mouth's training in the year. He
• have wished the Noble Lord had taken the present
store
of considering the military force, so as to make it
ec attractive to the working classes. He should wish
e Militia to be made a connecting link between the work-
c.lasses and the army, so as to recruit the latter from the
,
e~ili
and the militia from the working classes. At all
j„„erlts, he believed it necessary to organize a local force, not
quit
aggression, but for defence, and nothing could be done in
respect more economically than by creating a local
liZ• tio- If the Government was remiss on that subject, and
'Yla. disaster happened to the country from such remiss-
lens ' the Government would be handed down to posterity
116.1. execration. He (Sir H. V.), in conclusion, expressed
ti..7belief that the people of England would not refuse the
rfit'erase, as an assurance fur the maintenance of all prospe-
4-namely, the security of the country.
c• M. O'CONNELL hoped the Noble Lord would re-
• ider the question of extending the measure to Ireland.
could not see why Ireland should be lett unprotected any
CO) than England. In the county which he represented—
eTals peaceful county—the whole coast line from Bantry
3' to the Shannon was pierced with harbours, wherein
• enemy might put without hindrance, seeing that there
?re only the county constabulary force, and a few coast-
rVird men, some 500 or 600 in number, to resist them. He
Ltsd, therefore, that justice should be done to Ireland, more
trek. ially as the Fren h c had twice succeeded in landing in
Country on former occasions.
COBDE a; said the Hon. Member (Sir H. Verney)
asked whether the people of England would not pay an
auance for the preservation of all they possessed? He
Cobden) had no hesitation in saying that they would—
Whethernec
was essary. The quesion at issue, hwever, was not
I._ an insurance shou
ld the paid by theo people of Eng •
nd, but whether they had not already paid one ; whether
47,were not insured enough? It was like a man being
haply insured in the Phoenix having it proposed to him to
peZe besides in the Royal Exchange. The question for the
isamPriee,of England to ask was, whether they were not amply
ignor:? He maintained they were. It was the custom to
the or pretend to ignore the amount of money spent on
sour
of national defence in this country. The
beeeahtiM was, whether, with the money that had
40.' so spent, ample provision ha 4 been made
i.llst aggression ; whether, in short, a due use
b,..73 made of the forces which the country possessed ? This
ght him (Mr. Cobden) to the amount of the whole
,e`ge for the navy since the close of the war—a period of 37
%ark How much did the House think it was? No less
ph.;411250 millions of money. But as that period might be
14eted to as including too much time, he would take the
eri years—ten years being the average life of a ship.
147, did the account stand on this case? This country had
that time paid, for the wages of artificers in making and
pf7irin__ng ships of war for the use of the naval service, a sum
arstu_
„,000/. ; it had paid 113,400,0001. for the articles and
e,uals used in the construction and repair of such ships;
boin't had aid 3,000,000/. more for repairs and improve-
bea I'S in hereveral dockyards. What would a private ship-
), der say, if after laying out a sum of 23,000,0001. in ten
neer, loud cry was raised at the end of that time that the
At &Wall in a state of inefficiency—that there were no ships
kit. aea—and that the country should apply to a foreign
Vate,„:tstraneous service for its defence against possible in-
c He (Mr. Cobden) maintained that England was
doii-oantly secure as far as the cost went. But what was
*he With the ships? He heard much talk of invasion ; but
theerc, were the fleets? One squadron was up to the present
,9211 the Tagus—he understood it was now ordered home.
Ita;Fie Mediterranean, however, how many large vessels of
thitiZt° say nothing ot the smaller craft—id he House
try? were sunning themselves 1,200 miles from this coun-
He would read the list. There were the
411.•i0n Guns. Guns.
ic .
def4tig ..... .. 91 Bellerophon .....
nee able 5O Phoenix
11
........... .. 110 Trafalgar
120
T 14411"
t did not, as he said, include smaller vessels. Was

;t,-tise- - - - -
,),,,i,..refore, the conduct of rational people to raise a cry of
.atiii'loo, accompanied by a demand for a militia force,
far e their ships, the natural defence of the country, were so
theawaY from home, doing nothing?. But to say nothing of
war in commission, in
th2e ships, the number ofdshhai
ofships
sbours of England, was stall-
tiely-arious naval p.orht.sliatn
to invasions, or at least to prevent
„,„.,,o_ avert any ti'l'eti from being liability
yened unnecessarily on that point.
100, re Were in Sheerness the London, 92 guns; the Water-
th 120 ;
tester, 81;
the Neptune, 120; the Rodney, 102; the Man_
the Blenheim,Portsmouth
hhattlhiaeinte
*„ere were also several large 98, . and others. eir,so.
ships.
In Devon '`re the Victory and the Excellent.
and . rtslmn
%ber in port there were
Milford Haven
the B, including the Impregnable;
11 re were more. In fact,
in the har-
,attie h•
and four frigates lying
poll 8 ips
.there . were ten line-of-
doing
11„,irl! of England, rotting 11 their waters,
aid for a large force of
liZt lug. This
which,c.oitrfy had
Pwaoluld be forthcoming when
lion required.
also,
Teherc
eonwrseer'e line-of-battle ships besides
the West Indies and in the East Indies; though what
Ilse
1,4 t
l' o battle ship could be in Jamaica, or what use
t0i1,4
Made offa line of battle ship in the East Indies, he (Mr.
to en) could not tell., Indeed, he challenged any one to
%,"' that for many years a line-of-battle ship in either place
sas
h. ever called into requisition.
Zia They had of course, all
liarti of attacks on the pirates of the Eastern seas, and Par-
al meat had paid kead-money on a late occasion for the
fighter of 5,000 persons alleged to be pirates • but there
line-of-battle ship employed against
thes:°t been a single
bloody work had been done by
ate Pirates and all the
44%1' 'line-of-battle ships, therefore, lying in
the hag!' To keep 1 of Singapore, or llongkong, was
Inerels;"°nra of Jamaica,
waste of money. This
count; an idle show and a
argum'Y was not afraid of monstrousany attack upon her colonies. The
present demand was that inya-
tiah went in support of the
' land was so near France ;
Vhes..."aB innninent, because
were any danger, conse-
bees:'4 the colonies were 4,000 miles distant from a bucca-
stue",ng expedition. If there d
be done was to order
lying idle and useless
120'11" the first thing that should
N,h''e those large vessels now
eitirhe those
were. The Noble Lord
the opening of the
Bessic,.." antagonism to his speech at
iut himself in a N..
the "' The Noble
had taken great
lih,rtnewaeaper press of this country person-
Lord said on the latter occasion that
had lies
that the news
with the President of France; but that this
1)4 "d in England himself, and knowing.
news-
R° Press a„
opinions of the
as free, and might therefore be licentious, he
newti,,d net take it for granted that the
Eh
oir'PaPers were the opinions of the people
men( C,.„°hien). however, felt bound to say that the
nind.m,H,es.
Putil-c,a,ue by the Noble' Lord that night—the France and to
thebn;,.lll, was ten times more menacing to France .
the ',.Ven Who governed it than all that had been. said byon
...thia;Wapapers, even though. the Noble Lord did no
l'he az aelon speak in the voice of the people of England.
tis„ ' oble Lord, it was true, stated that the force iu quhes;
inn' would not be employed except in case of invasioie uot,
heic'nriginating an elastic force of 80,000 men,. capable
tha expanded into Iro 000 the Noble
.Lord did far more
-4
the
j ' ' took upon himself to lecture, to
Prow, Press, wh;ch he
Itie mi the President and to irritate the Frencl peohapdlen..;
Itifo ar, hear,) But the Noble Lord,
that the French
qcsirrined the House of anything to show
nevertheless,
in-
elitie,lnnent of the present day was not as peacefullyo osi-
Vat, ' towards England as the Noble Leader of the. p
nt P•
nor
1:11--, teadted it to be in the other House of Parliamme_ad:
the
ira`,,_ne one anything to remove from the public i
regarded such
1,,,1',,,_ asion made by the Queen's Speech as
;rVen.c intentions on the part of France—an impressionratio
..".A_ n had made the public funds go up in the sameL
,s
,1_ nn doubt they would go down when tbe Noble
Lord _
I;LOPosition should be made public. The Noble Lord
1,..ae bound to show why there was more danger from
1-14nee now than there in 1848, when the Noble
'Ara was
ultimately
Withdrew proposed to call out the militia, but
the
i that to
On that occasion (1848)
"le 1 ord Id . for the course he proposed
the fa ' a( uesd as oue reason
,„,_ ct that the King of the French, during his long mad I.„4_,ceful reign, had nearly doublcd the number of ship
ill'eur_force in the French navy. On the present occasiont
stole Was no attempt made by the Noble Lend to sh?wna
a__ . was the case. On the contrary, he (Mr. Cobden) 1(4): m the French newspapers—such, at least, as were al-
se,ren to be printed—tbat there syss a talk of laying up
wstiefal. shins of the French nava% Of course that statement
_ a be taken for what it was worth ; hut it was certainly
_lioe, and as certainly the Noble Lord had said nothing of
LTMentation. Another argument used by the Noble Lord
'•" 1648 Was that Frazee had then on foot 2,000,000 of Na-

tional Guards. Tyat argument,' however, was of no force
now, as the National Guard was dissolved. Therefore, on
the Noble Lord's own showing, this country was much less
liable to molestation at the present moment than it was in
1848, when he relinquiphed his own preposition to embody
the militia at that- period. He (Mr. Cobden) was, how
ever, afraid, from the observations of the Honourable and
Gallant Member afor__:B._radford.. in.....retspect to Belgium,
that this country las on the eve of being dragged into
a continental quarrel ;—(Hear)—and that calling out the
militia was preliminary to sending out the regular force to
fight on the Continent for foreign interests. After the lesson
taught to England in the last war, however—after the tree •
chery with which she had been repaid for the lavish expen-
diture of her blood and money'upon foreigd'oations, he (Mr.
Cobden) doubted Verynthch whether, the people of England
would allow any Government whatever, Whig or Tory, to
drag the country into another continental war. If they did,
then they would richly deserve the catastrophe of national
bankruptcy, which would be inevitable in respect of a people
so impervious to sense and so forgetful of the lessons of ex-
perience. With regard to the proposition before the House,
he (Mr. Cobden) had no hesitation in saying that calling out
the militia would be highly unpopular with all classes, espe-
cially with the poor, who could not afford to pay for substi-
tutes ; and he was satisfied that the Noble Lord would see
once again the same public hostility to the measure as he met
with in respect to his measure of 1818. A mere fraction of
the people was proposed to bo taken from their homes and
placed under martial law for no purposes of their own.—
( Ilear.) If 150,000 soldiers were wunted they should be paid
for as such—paid liberally; but to call upon a poor man,
who, perhaps, earned 4s per day, to come from his shop,
and to leave that labour which barely sufficed for
the support of his family, and to place himself under martial
Ilw for Is. or ls. 3d. per day, was, in his (Mr. Cobden's)
opinion, to commit an act of the most flagrant injustice.—
( Hear.) The navy was the national guardian of England.
The Noble Lord had no business to contemplate the possi-
bility of invasion if the navy was properly kept np—an in-
vasion either by a band of brigands or by a regular army.
A Swiss Baron had written about an invasion of England, it
is true, with 150,000 men ; but that matter had been disposed
of by the professional men of this kingdom, who proved that
all the ships owned by France would not suffice for the pur-
pose. Another plan had, however, been put forward by the
Army and Nary Journal—namely, that France might land
from 10,000 to 15,000 men on a given portion or portions of
the coast, which force, though not strong enough to occupy
the country militarily, or effect any important strategical
operations, might nevertheless cause irreparable injury. In
this manner it was urged a buccaneering expedition might
visit the Thames, and levy a Canton ransom on the me-
tropolis. This he (Mr. Cobden), however, looked upon
as a libel upon the French army.—(Laughter.) It would
be an act of piracy at all events, unless a declaration
of war was made. It was said that the French army
was anxious to avenge Waterloo. Hanging 10,000 men,
which, no doubt, would be the fate of such a body of
invaders, would not, however, be a very satisfactory means
of avenging Waterloo. It was also said, that such a force
would burn the ships in the harbours of Englund. If they
did, they would burn at the same time the ships of other na-
tions—America, Dutch, and others, in the ports of this
country also. That, however, would cause all these maritime
state to coalesce, and the nation that performed such an act of
piracy would be hunted, if not from the face of the earth, at
least from the face of the ocean, by these united powers. All
that he (Mr. Cobden) asked was, that the ships of war, which
cost England nearly 8,000,0001. a-year, should be so disposed
of as to satisfy the fears of the timid. As regarded the pre-
sumed intention of their nearest neighbour, England paid
twice as much for her navy as France, and three times as
much as was paid by America, because she was an island
and needed ships to defend her shores; but now. the Govern-
ment, notwithstanding the insular position of England, pro-
posed to call out the militia to protect the country against
invasion. lie (Mr. Cobden) hoped, therefore, that the Noble
Lord would not press his proposition to a division, but would
postpone it so as to give time for the country to decide on
the question. He (Mr. Cobden) had seen a panic manufactured
in 1848, greater even than the present panic, and he had
seen it defeated. The Noble Lord regretted the withdrawal
of his Bill in 1848. Why did he regret it? The leading
organ of public opinion at this moment said, that England
was never safer than when France was under the constitu-
tional government of an Assembly, which she was at that
period. He (Mr. Cobden) hoped the good sense of the
people, therefore, would as effectually resist any attempt to
manufacture a panic now as it did in 1848. It was a cry got
up by certain newspapers, which had nothing else to write
about in the Parliamentary recess, and was not the feeling of
the country.
Viscount PALMERSTON and Mr. F. Maule rose at
the same time; but the latter gave way to the cry of the
House for the former. The Noble Lord said he concurred
with his Hon. and Gallant Friend on the same side of the
House who had expressed his satisfaction that her Majesty's
Government were doing something at last on the subject
then under discussion. His (Viscount Palmerston's) satis-
faction was not, however, founded on any opinion which he
entertained that there was immediate or pressing danger;
or, in fact, any cause which had not existed at former
moments. He trusted that the relations of England with
that country from which danger was most apprehended to
arise were as friendly as they could be, and that no question
was likely to spring up which would expose this country to
any such danger. But the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment knew perfectly well that he (Vicount Palmerston)
had taken the liberty of impressing on him several times
since the year 1846, upon general principles, that it was
necessary for the present safety and lasting interests of
this country that some such measures of precaution should
be taken as those now proposed by the Noble Lord's Go-
vernment, and about to be undertaken. He (Viscount Pal-
merston) had repeatedly renewed his instances, as the Noble
Lord would bear him witness; but difficulties had inter-
vened which prevented their being adopted. He was glad,
however, that these difficulties had disappeared at last. and
that her Majesty's Government were now about to provide in
a more adequate manner for the defence of the country.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken
said that England should not provoke a continental war, or
mix herself in the quarrels of foreign nations; and, as a
general principle, he (Viscount Palmerston) gave that pro-
position his fullest approval. But, as the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government said, England had engagements of
long standing,which might involve her in such dispute, de-
spite even of her own inclination—political engagements
which extended beyond the limits of her own shores.—
(Hear, hear.) She had also commercial interests scattered
widely over the whole globe. There was, in fact, no
country in the world where England had not subjects,
property, or commerce.—(Hear, hear.) And he (Viscount
Palmerston) was bound to say that the questions of the
slightest appearance were very often the most dangerous as
between nations. This was proved in the administration of
Sir Robert Peel when a question of that nature came
to involve the honour and dignity of a neighbouring
country.—(Hear.) lion. Gentleman talked of the danger of
a rupture with France alone, because of her fleet and army;
but the House should bear in mind that France was not the
only power in Europe which possessed a large fleet and a
large army. And if this country was involved in a foreign
war, there was no saying how widely the flame would
spread, or how far those other countries would take advan-
tage of the position of England.—(Hear, hear.) But it was
said that this country being insular, and possessing for that
reason a fleetfor its defenee, the natural defence of England
was the navy- That very insular position, may, however,
in some cases, be the source of danger for this country.
Continental states were acces,sible only by certain roads
which were strongly fortified at the points of entrance by
extensive fortresses. The shores of England, however, were
open for the entire circumference of the island ;
and upon
such an immense extent of space it would be impossible to
foresee where an invading force might land. Then the
Channel was narrow ; and, as Lord Howe said, " the sea
was a wide place." Three days might bring a consider-
able force from distant places, and few be the wiser
of it.—(Hear.) He (Viscount Palmerston) believed
the British navy to be as efficient at this mo-
ment as at any former period of its history ; in-
deed, he believed it to be more efficient. There was a
great amount of valuable stores in the arsenals of this
country, and a great many ships in her dockyards ; but
was that 'any reason that the people of England should
not take all necessary precaution to prevent an enemy
from coming into their ports, and burning the one while
they destroyed the others, before they could be manned to
offer effective resistance? He (Viscount Palmerston)
complained of the exaggeration of his Hon. Friend in enu-
merating the ships in commission in England. The Ex-
cellent, quoted by his Hon. Friend, was only for target
practice, and the Victory was all but a tender—never sent
to sea, and perhaps unfit for other service. But efficient
as the navy undoubtedly was, it would be madness to
rely solely and entirely upon it as regarded the defence
of this country from foreign invasion. It was impossible
for any navy, however effective, to prevent the landing
of a hostile force altogether, considering the short in-
terval which separated the shores of this country—he
would say from France—while on the other and more dis-
tant points to which an expedition might be directed—
Ireland for instance—it would be much more successful in
landing, because those points were necessarily less guarded.
Well, then, if it were necessary to have a land force under
such circumstances, armed men to resist armed men—for as
to fortifications it would be useless to think of fortifying any
points except the arsenals and dockyards, there being no
fortifications like brave men, such as would always be found,
men with strong hearts and sinewy arms—Englishmen—
if, therefore, a large armed force was needed—he hoped it
would not be so, but it always was less so in proportion as a
nation was prepared for resistance, nothing being so tempting
as weakness and incapacity conjoined with great wealth
(Hear)—if it was necessary that this country should have
a force capable of defending their homes and altars against
an invading army, against the incalculable calamity which
even a month's occupation of the country, or any large por-
tion of it, by an invading army would involve—something
like the mode proposed by the Noble Lord seemed to him
fami-
liespte ancteal
peaceful
di
avocationse Gentlemen h t
(Viscount Palmerston) the only plan available for that
purpose,—(gear, hear.) It was mighty well for Honourable
their
r talk o
at
nt hde
teachingb uthardshipsth the people
thempoef takingo pto
oi.
defend
Emnegn
lt
afhrneodimr their
war, or they would notw
did not countryknow h ; fortu-
natelyathweseirteate thae
moment
ttieast
any course to avert it. Gentlemen. who served
course knew what these calamities were • and evenonadrooptahtdi actualonosgef
persons who read with attention the history' of former wars
might form some conception of them; but he (Viscount
Palmerston) could not picture to his mind any greater
calamity as possible than the landing of a hostile force on the
shores of England sufficient to
oufpLt
time. Well,
country
ell
timonr
wasany
large portion of it, for any length
ofim pfoorrtaceilalienee
the regular army sufficient? He was satisfied that the
habits, the feelings, and the finances of the country would
amount
peace,
The United
and organized and
not permffiitcietnhtemto tdoeflasnavde
thean country
peace sufficient
Y, the one thing,
in a time of war.—
(Hear.) What, then, could theyhaavned—.wh
which every country of magnitude
ready
States of
in
force
time o rmoafnwt inar
ttimeu war.--(Haar.)
of
disciplineda
America did not feel the hardship which e complained—
that of being called on to learn the use of arms to defend in
there was 1,000,000 of militia in the United States. Ger-
manycase of need their homes and their country.
did not feel the hardship, and in Prussia there was a
large amount of dormant military force. France had recog-
nised the same principle by partially re-organizing the militia
defence. These countries had followed our example of having a
militia, though we had discontinued the militia of lateyears.
But certainly there was no country having such enormous
wealth, and so many vast interests at stake, which possessed
so little defence against invasion. What was wanted were
men trained, disciplined, and organized in time of peace,
who were only to be assembled for a short time in each
year to learn the practice and movements of the regular
troops. Without this amount of discipline, a body of armed
men, however large, was a mob, not an army.—(Hear.)
What the country required was to have a body of men, who,
on the breaking out of war, would be found under arms
ready to defend their country. A regular militia would
supply that kind of force. They bad had a militia for nearly
two centuries, and he thought, therefore, there could be no
difficulty in the way of organizing that force. He confessed
he did not quite understand the difference raised by the
Noble Lord in reference to the regular and the local militia,
and the preference fur local militia advocated by the Noble
Lord. The Noble Lord said the regular militia was formed
by ballot or by euhetituus. The local militia did not allow

LONDON,

of substitutes except in certain exemptions, but required
personal service. The old militia force was the old consti-
tutional force of the kingdom ; it was trained and officered,
and required to do duty each year for twenty-eight days,
and was prepared to join the regular army in the defence
of the country should war take place. The regular militia
of Great Britain and Ireland was liable to serve in any part
of the United Kingdom. Now he was really astonished
that in any plan for the defence of the realm Ireland
should be left entirely without protection. Local militia,
as advocated by the Noble Lord, would be entirely confined
to Great Britain. Why was not Ireland provided for?
Did Government doubt the loyalty of Ireland ?—(Hear.) He
pledged his existence there would not be found a single
Irishman, if called out to serve, and who had taken the oath
of loyalty to his Sovereign and his country, who would not
lose his life in defence of both.—(Cheers.) For his own
part, he had the greatest confidence in the Irish militia—
they would to a man b 3 found true to their oath and their
Sovereign—and as to their courage, that was sufficiently
known.—(Loud cheers.) If the country was to have a militia
he could not understand why so complicated an arrangement
as that devised by the Noble Lord should be preferred. It
seemed to him that a simple force, like the regular militia,
might be raised at less personal inconvenience The regular
militia permitted substitutes —the regular was available
all over the United Kingdom, whereas the local militia
would only be stationed in county by county, and they
could not be called into action until too late to do essential
service. He would, therefore, respectfully submit to her
Majesty's Government the expediency of leaving out the
word " local" in their Bill. He would suggest they
should simply leave out the word " local," and bring in
a Bill to amend the Acts of 1802, which regulated
the regular militia. There were many other things
to be considered. The system of ballot might be
improved—the infusion of a uumber of half-pay officers
acquainted with the practical duties of the service would
give an efficient tone to the service. The suggestions if
neglected would give the local militia simply the character
of an awkward squad. He did not approve of the plan of
having men by detachments of ten from one place and
twenty from another. They might depend upon it no real
discipline could be given to a body of men unless trained by
battalions—and unless they were practised in those con-
certed movements necessary to be taught, and useful in
action against an enemy. He was exceedingly glad Govern-
ment had come forward with a measure for providing for
the defence of the country by a force of this character. He
was satisfied the militia afforded the best means by which
danger could be averted, and the best force to have recourse
to in case of invasion ; but he considered the measure before
the House was susceptible of improvement, and that the
regular militia ought to be the standard by which the pre-
sent measure should be regulated.—(Cheers.)
Mr. F. MAULE joined heartily in the expressions of
applause with which the House had received the speech of
the Noble Lord, and he rejoiced to hear his Noble Friend
pre-
pared with a militia force for its defence. His Noble Friend
bear testimony ti the necessity of the country being
(Lord Palmerston) thought the proposal of Lord J. Russell
would be benefited by substituting a regular, instead of a
local, militia. That subject, he could assure the Noble
Lord, had undergone mature consideration at the hands of
Government; and, for reason which were perfectly convinc-
ing, it appeared to Government to be the preferable course
to confine the measure to a militia of a local charaeter ra-
ther than to propose a permanent system of militia. The
regular militia was composed principally of substitutes.
Even in time of peace the very act of allowing individuals
to serve by substitute created so much confusion, that should
the service of the men be required abroad, it would be
quite impossible to make them available. This course had,
therefore, been abandoned. The system of regular militia
which permitted substitutes would not work well, especially
in time of war. In the present measure Government did
not profess to go so far as the system of regular militia ; all
they wished to do was to enable a force to be mustered
which was easy of action whenever the necessity should
arrive for having recourse to their service. The local force
proposed to be established was, as he thought, the most
preferable force. By the old system of the regular militia
it would take many weeks before the ballot would be con-
cluded, and some months before the force could be made
available. Government proposed by a local militia not to
extend the system so far as under the old Militia Act.
The expense and the inconvenience of ballot, and taking
married men from their families, would thus be ren-
dered inconsiderable. One of the advantages of com-
bining men of twenty or twenty-three years of age
was that you got them mustered with far more facility
than under the old system. Except in case of invasion, or
rumour of invasion, they were not to be called to serve out
of their locality. This plan he considered was simple, and
easy, and economical, and would produce a force which
would be found essential for the purposes for which it might
be required. The Hon. Member for Montrose had compared
this measure to conscription in France. Now he held it to
be the duty of every man in the country to contribute by all
means in his power to the preservation of the liberties and
interests of his country. The Hon. Member for Montrose,
however, attached the odious name of conscription to such a
duty. Me replied that he considered it was the constitu-
tional obligation of every man to rally round his hearths and
altars; and he considered that by that obligation all men
were bound.—(Cheers.) The inhabitants of twenty to
twenty_three years of age were to be first called upon to
serve their country for four years. During that period they
were not to be taken out of their own localities, except
in case of invasion. They were only to submit to a
drill of fourteen, or at most twenty-eight days. This
was a light duty, and he for one should be disappointed
if such a proposition went to the country to be
hooted as unpopular and as a conscription of the
people. The Hon. Member for the West Riding said
he should prefer the regular army to any other force of the
country. The lion. Member for Montrose would no doubt
oppose the vote for an increase of 4,000 for the army, and
he suspected the Hon. Member for the West Riding would
support him.—( Hear.) The lion. Member for the %Vest
,Riding said nothing was so menacing to France as this pro-
position. He could not understand why there should be any-
thing menacing to any foreign nation in a proposition for
providing means to defend your own country. He could not
understand how an act of self-protection should he menacing
to any country.—(Hear.) He was willing to take his share
of the blame tor not having moved in this direction sooner.
He confessed the time had come, and Government certainly
were remiss in not having taken the steps which they now
took. He anticipated that a foundation was now laid for
establishing a home force, which was never to be called
into the field until there was an absolute necessity for their
services. He could not object to see a portion of the
community trained to arms who had something to lose—
who would not be mere substitutes for other men—substi-
tutes drawn from the dregs of the people, and dangerous
men to be trained to the use of arms. The force which
would now be raised would consist of such men whom it was
right to train to arms for the defence of the country. The
subject would be further entered into when the Bill was
brought forward. The Noble Lord had made some objections
to the details. He would say there was an objection that
the measure should be referred to the consideration of a
select committee upstairs. There was one part to which
he would make a few remarks. The Hon. Member for
Dublin asked if Ireland was to be included in the Bill? He
replied that neither Ireland, nor Scotland formed any por-
tion of the Bill. It was limited to England, as it was to
that part of the United Kingdom it'avas considered essential
to apply the militia system, Ireland was not expected on
account of any doubt about the loyalty of Irishmen; for all
knew if danger threatened this country or the Crown there
was not a single man in Ireland, whatever his religion or
Hear')
Mr. NEWDEGATE, after
po-
litical opinions, but would fly a
country and rally round his Salm len
referringat once t
to hotthe defence
the
dreeeennetemoofrdheisr
o:,ol%ttlird.
notßu Burns binyißsleodrneboy pgiruaitdteiss,
themselves such fallible r
relative
hintdiovlheBh4eatsodh
hoteph ea
did
necessity
hithertod.
et
seo
stHi
provedtt
yho
iufnos
think
prophets et peace. He did not wish
further
orttale
defencean partt
to our
th e questi
territories.st
additional defence was required, but after a careful inquiry
into the subject from those most
Competentadvice he mas convinced of the necessity of supporting the
di in
details.
1852ai
1s t o
he givei n
supported
correct
1848
h e
measure of her Majesty's Government. He did not mean,
opposed however,
theto embodimentgi veh supports
ef the
hteo allii ihae;
the proposition for the militia. He believed some parts of
the present Militia Bill were likely to prove useful, and he
consideredin giving the measure his
support.
protest against the general
rdoing
rose his dutyt()
Mr.r
. E. h
Be. wasßo c
He entirel tone of argument adopted that night.
were act.nge
con-
curred in the eulogium passed by the Noble (Lord
Palmerston) on the loyalty and courage of the Irish people.
But in what they were doing, bringing forward
an act
for the further self-defence of the country, would
Govern-
ment allow him to ask whether they
fairly or prudently towards a people described by the Nobleue
newspapers to Ireland,
Lord as pre-eminently loyal? It was folly to th•-,
lux the acts of
that House would not be canvassed in England, in
and on the Continent. They might be assured that continental
nations would say, " while England is arming ITiertsinelefilarpl
defence against hostility, is there not an important portion or
people, for such a-
the kingdom, either by neglect or design, left undefended?°,,
Let Members speak boldly and plainly. He had seen • h
tit
pain writings and publications in Irish
to invite a French invasion. He had seen with p tending
disgust those publications. He deplored the fact pin
such
things having been written, he deplored the effect and the
act ; but he also deplored the conduct of her Majesty's
vernment in hesitating at arming the Irish
proceeding added a kind of colouring to the base and wicked
attempts and arguments of misguided people. lie did
agree with the views of the Ha n. Member for the not
West
Riding. He believed the voluntary system was the best,
cheapest, and most constitutional mode of defence. If that
were so, in what position was Ireland placed? What the
Noble Lord said was true—the better defended and prepared a
country was, the less was the chance of invasion. But if
they took care that Ireland should not be armed, what was
that but an advertisement to France," Soldiers my be landed
here." Such would be the consequences of excluding Ire-
land from the Bill. There was no doubt Ireland con-
tained a few disaffected men, bat the great majority of the
the ground on which lie calledupon Government. if they
loyal and peaceful Irish
people were as loyal as the people of England. That was
were well affected to her Majesty's
The Bill excluded
subjects, to give them the same means of protecting their
country as they had given to England.
Ireland and Scotland. He hoped, however, like the new
Reform Bills, that they were to have separate Bills to effect
the same object. If not, it would be nothing short of a
declaration to Europe, that the people of Ireland were not
to be depended upon. If they did this they would commit
a great mistake as statesmen, and practically they would
also calumniate the Irish people.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member was wholly
unwarranted in supposing that Ireland had been excluded
from the Bill on account of any distrust in the loyalty of
the people of Ireland. Had Ireland been introduced into
the present Bill it would have created great confusion on
account of the great number of parishes and unions. The
Bill for a local militia was made not to apply to Scotland ;
but Government did not mean thereby to imply distrust of
Scotland, or that the people were not as loyal as the people
of England. Government said this was a local militia Bill,
and they would apply it to England only. There was one
thing that would have to be considered—the police force
employed in the metropolis and the large towns. The ques-
tion to be decided was, whether they should be allowed to
form a part of the quota of militia to be contributed by the
respective districts, or to be exempted from the obligations
of the Militia Act (as we understood.) The Irish constabu-
lary was a fine body of men, they had always behaved well,
and were ready at the call of duty. They numbered 10,000
or 12,000. This body of police would be taken into consi-
deration when a Bill was introduced for Ireland. The ques-
tion was, whether the present Bill would be followed up by
Certainly
bea
Bill
Ha
for either had been now introduced, that resulted from no
want of confidence in the loyalty of the people of those
countries. fßorilllrwel

- Captain HARRIS said it was perfectly disgraceful to have
a panic about invasion every two or three years. Our
commercial relations were larger than those of any other
country, and on that account we required a larger navy.
If we took our rival, with whom at present we were at
peace, it would be found that it had a sufficient line-of-battle
force inmen and guns to cope With us. He could not con-
siderour
ships in harbour as efficient ships, and unless men
w
had to nun them he could iiot pee where their
e to
be