The Sun.
London, England, 1864-02-26 00:00:00

both as to armour plating and guns. At the present time
we have came to the conclusion that 6t tons is the utmost
limit of each gun which a ship can carry in her broad-
side. A communication on the subject took place
between Mr. Whitworth and the Duke of Somerset, which
resulted in the latter informing the bite lamented Lord Her-
bert that he required a smooth-bored gun, about G. tons, to
carry from 25 to 331bs. of powder and a 100 lb. projectile. A
gun was accordingly prepared 6.1 to 61 tons in weight, carry-
ing a spherical projectile of 1001bs weight and 301bs of pow-
der. That gun was very successful, Several of those guns
have been ordered, and we expect that they will all be re-
ceived by July next. But much about the same time the
Admiralty thought that they ought also to have rifled guns,
limited, however, to the same weight, and accordingly a gun
called the " Lord Frederick" has been ordered, and is about
to have a trial. In addition, such has been the success of the
300 pounder gun—which, in fact, is a 1501 b smooth bore
gun—that we have placed four of them on board the Mino-
taur ; ten on board the Bellerophon ; five on board the
Royal Saxon ; and four on the Prince Albert. As to the
Bellerophon target, it has been fired at by Mr. Whit worth
with a 7-inch gun--at what distance lam not quite certain
—but as yet the Bellerophon remains a virgin target. In
our experiments we have consumed 117 targets and five or
six target-ships ; that is a proof that such experiments can-
not be made except at a great cost; but it also proves how
serious has been the attention which the Admiralty have
devoted to the production of the best ships and, upon
the whole, I may state we have been very successful. (Hear,
hear.) I now pass to vote 11, which relates to docks and
basins. The vote shows a considerable increase. We are
building large works at Chatham, and we propose to make
a great basin at Portsmouth, very similar to the one which
has been enlarged at Chatham ; but this is so important a
work that I shall think it right to move for a select com-
mittee to report upon the subject. At the same time,
where the dockyards can be reduced, that it is to be done.
For example, it is no longer considered necessary to main-
tain a dock at Deal, and the same is to be said of the dock
at Leith. And likewise it is proposed to do away with the
dock at Deptford, when the works at Chatham are finished.
I will not go into any particulars with respect to the dock at
Malta, as we are to have a special discussion on the matter,
but when that discussion comes on I shall be perfectly ready
to defend the course of the Government. The noble lord
then explained that he did not state on a former evening, as
he had been in one quarter reported to have done, that the
Royal Oak and the Resistance had actually been docked
at Malta. Re of course knew quite well that those ships
had been only just ordered out, and therefore that they
could not want I epairs. What he stated was that those
ships could be docked at Malta. In conclusion, the noble
lord stated that it was, with great satisfaction he was able
to announce tt.at there would be an increase in the rate on
acz..catilii or the pay of officers, in consequence of a proposal
to improve the pay of all ranks of officers in the navy, in-
cluding the petty officers. (Cheers )
On the first vote of 42,874,647, on account of 71,950
seamen and marines

Sir 4, PAKINGTON expressed his astonishment that
in the present state of affairs on the Continent and in Ame-
rica the Government should have thought it desirable to
propose a reduction of 4,050 men and boys. Any diminu-
tion of force, whether in navy or army, was calculated to
impress ott the great Powers he belief, already too general,
that the louder we talked the less disposed were we to act.
There was obvious danger of this course producing a pain-
ful sentiment on both sides the Atlantic, and he could not
refrain, therefore, from doubting whether the present was
the moment which the Government ought to have chosen
to propose any reduction of our naval and military resources.
He concurred in the policy of maintaining the Naval Re-
serve, and of drawing on the mercantile marine when ne-
cessary ; but no mistake could be greater than that of re-
placing these boys, who were likely to become the most
valuable seamen in the fleet, by any accidental addition
that might be derived from the mercantile service. Nothing
in the statement of the noble lord had gratified him more
than the announcement that 2,510 men and boys were held
in reserve in any ships that might require to be manned.
He also expressed his unqualified satisfaction at the deci-
sion of the Admiralty to ask a vote of £2,000 for the esta-
blishment of a school of naval architecture, but charged the
department of the Government with want of caution in
having covered the Minotaur, and Agincourt, and the
Northumberland—the most costly ships that has ever
been added to the navy—with armour which had turned
out defective and inferior.

Sir M. VETO criticised the administration of nava]
affairs, and observed that the one great want in the depart-
ment was a master miad.

Mr. LAIRD pointed out the necessity of providing ade-
quate dock and basin accommodation for large steam ships,
both at home and in some of the colonies.

Captain BERKELEY regarded the reduction in the
number of men and boys as merely nominal, for the number
to be borne on the books would be as large as ever.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE disapproved of the contem-
plated reduction, and urged that temporary barracks should
be erected at the various ports whilst permanent naval bar-
racks were being constructed.

Captain TALBOT concurred with Mr. Laird in opinion
that the importance of increasing the dock and basin ac-
commodation could not be over estimated. At present it
was utterly insufficient to meet the demands that must arise
in the event of a war.

Mr. STANSFELD said the reason that a vote of only
£27,000 was taken for the Chatham works was that no more
than that sum could be usefully expended on the present
works, lie was quite aware that at the first blush it might
seem extraordinary that one of the first results of recent
dockyard investigation should 00 an increase on dockyard
expenditure. But at that late period of the evening it was
impossible to enter upon the requisite explanations,
Mr. LINDSAY said that under these circumstances he
would move that the committee should report progress. He
thought they should hear these explanations before the
general discussion on the estimates was closed.
Lord PALMERSTON truLted that the house would vote
the number of men required for the navy. Any discussion
on dockyard expenditure could be taken on subsequent
votes.

After a few Words from Mr. LINDSAY and Sir J,
the committee divided, when there were,s
FOr repo' Ling progress . ..... 4 • 4 SI
Against
Majority
—3
The result was received with some cheering on the Con-
servative benches,

The chairman then reported progress and the house
resumed.

Leave was given to Mr. EtAxn to bring in a bill to
amend the 'aw relating t) grand juries in Ireland; also to
Mr. ADDERLEY a bill to consolidate the Penal Servitude
Acts for England and Scotland.
Several returns were ordered, and the house adjourned at
ten minutes past one o'clock.
PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

DEFEAT OF THE GOVERNMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEB. 15.
NAVY ESTIMATES.

In committee of supply, motion made and question pro-
posed, "That 71,950 men and boys be employed for the
sea and coastguard services for the year ending on the
31st day of March, 1865, including 18,000 royal marines."
Whereupon motion made and question put, " That the
Chairman do report progress. and ask leave to sit again."
The committee divided—Ayes, 31; Noes, 28.

AYES —3l.
Adderley, C. B. Gore, J. R. 0. Naas, Lord
Baritelot, Col. Grogan, Sir E. I'eto, Sir M.
Berkeley, C. Hamilton, 1. T. Smith, Augustus
Blake, J. A. Hennessy, J. P. Somes, Joseph
Bridges, Sir B. Heyg,ate, %V. U. Talbot, Hon: W. C.
Cargill, W. Laird, J. Verner, E. W.
Dalglish, Robert Lawson, W. 'Yorke, J. It.
Dickson, Col. Leader, N.
Dunne, Col. Lewis, Harvey TELLERS.
Elphinstone, Sir J. Lonofield, Robert
Fermoy, Lord Macdonogh, F. Lindsay, W. S.
George, John Maxwell, Col. Hay, Sir J.

• NOES —2B.
Berkeley, H. Headlam, Thus. E. Ponsonby, A.
Bruce, H. A. Heathcote, Sir W. Russell, Sir Wm.
Cardwell, Rt. Hn. E. Herbert, H. A. Stansfeld, J.
Colthurst, Sir G. Kingscote, Col. Villiers, Rt. Hon. C.
Dodson, John G. Lyon, Hon. F. Walpole, S. H.
Dull; R. Martin, J. White, L.
Evans, T. W. O'Conor Don, The
Gavin, Major O'Hag an, T.
Gladstone, W. E. Paget, Lord C. E.
Grey, Sir G. Palmerston, Viset. Brand, H. B.
Hartington,Marquis Peel, F. Dunbar, Sir Win.

ERRATUM —ln the division on Tuesday, on the steam
rams at Birkenhead, the name of Lord A. Hervey F hou'd
have appeared among the Noes, instead of that of Mr. It. B.
Harvey, the latter hon. member having voted with the
Ayes.

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