The Sun.
London, England, 1864-05-11 00:00:00

TAXATION.

Mr. JAKES WHITE moved for a Select Committee to
inquire bit° the operation and incidence of our present Fis-
cal STlttem, and to consider and report if any and what
resumes could be devised to secure a more equitable ad.
instment of the burden of imperial taxation. He contended
that the repugnance which the people of this country felt
to the operation of the system of taxation was to a convic-
tion that it was unjust. He contended also that the greatest
advantages would result from the inquiries of the commit-
tee he proposed, and he dwelt on the admitted dissatisfac-
tion with which the principle on which the inccme tax was
levied, which calls for a remedy, although he did not deny
that this impost would, in all probability, be necessarily
permanent. Having adverted to the pressure of indirect
taxation on the working classes through the operation of
the customs and excise, which he considered was unduly
sevsre, he argued that before there was any diminution of
the duty on spirits, the duty should be entirely remitted on
tea and sugar so largely consumed, and so indispensable to
the comforts of the working classes. He contrasted the
principle which prevailed on the Continent with that in
this country, and cited statistics to show that in the
former it was the class who could beat afford it that were

most heavily taxed.
Mr. P. URQUHART believed that a system of direct
taxation would benefit not only the working classes, but
the landed proprietors alas. Unless some reduction were
made, he feared that emigration to the colonies would be
sought as a relief by the people of this country from the
fiscal burdens imposed upon them, and that the national
prosperity would consequently decline. The tiaae, he be-
lieved, had come when they might benefit the working
classes without injuring others, and he therefore seconded
the motion of his hon, friend the member for Brighton.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, rising
after a momentary pause, said the fact that no other member
had risen to address the house showed there was hardly
existing in the house that degree of interest on so vast a
question which would enable hon. members to grapple
with the enormous labour the inquiry seemed to propose.
The motion of the hon. member for Brighton had no relk-
tion or resemblance to the ordinary proposals for a com-
mittee, but went far beyond the usual motions. The speech
of the hon member sketched out a still further province of
labour. The consideration of any one of the proposals he
had touched upon would involve very serious responsibility,
and it did appear to him that his hon. friend would lay upon
the committee an amount of duty which would inevitably
break their backs. His hon. friend proposed to inquire into
every branch of taxation and revenue, and in every point of
view in which it was capable of being pursued. He would
investigate the operation of each tax as it bore upon each of
-the three kingdoms, and upon each class of society, in each
country. He would discuss the great and important distinc-
tion between direct ani indirect taxation. He aimed not
only at fiscal but at statistical inquiry. He would not be
satisfied unless the committee brought back a final and con-
elu.ive account of the capital value of the whole property
of the country, it, annual income, and the annual increment
of that inceme. desired also to investigate the fiscal

system of every foreign country. That was not an exag-
gerated statement of the duties he proposed for the commit-
tee, Such a scheme, the right hon. gentlema ntended,
was impracticable. If the hon. gentleman expected
such an investigation to be made, he must t reek up his
scheme to pieces, and be content to deal with one or some
manageable number of the different raere')ers of the entire
body of topics which he bad started. The lien. gentleman
seemed to think that there existed in this country chronic
discontent, an ineradicable disposition to escape the payment
of taxes. He seemed to think that was a phenomenon pe-
culiar to ourselves, due not to any original or prevalent vice
or infirmity of mankind, but due rather to taults of our fiscal
system, which were capable of being corrected by judi-
cious legislation. There, again, he differed from the hon.
member. Whether it was the approach of age which
chilled a man's views of life and human nature he could
net 'cell, but he confessed he did entertain a lower esti-
mate of human nature than the hon. gentleman in this re-
aliect. lie was afraid that, labour as we might, patch and
cobble as we might, make and mend as we might, we should
never got rid of that disposition with a large portion of man-
kind yet cherished to reduce to a minimum the sum which
as individuals they contributed to the necessities of the state.
(Laughter.) His hon. friend thought this disease was local,
temporary, and peculiar. He (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) held that it was cosmopolitan, everlasting, univer-
sal. and to be found in every country in the world where
taxes were paid or levied. In fact, that no country in the
world would be found free from this most pestilent disease.
Happily, our system had undergone a signal change during
the last 20 or 30 thirty years. He was by no means of
opinion, however, that nothing remained to be done. The
hon. gentleman argued that from the great reduction which
had taken place in direct taxation, it might go on progres-
sively to its extinction, From one point of view direct
taxation had immense advantages. It took nothing from
the community but what it put into the treasury, while in-
direct taxation took a great deal more from the individual
than ever came into the exchequer. But what was the use
of knowing that, when they had not to devise a theory, but
to meet daily wants, pay the daily charges upon the public
purse, and when they had to deal with the flesh and blood of
mankind ? In addition to 13 millions of local taxation, we
had to raise from 65 to 70 millions for imperial purposes,
The practicability of adopting direct taxation inraising such
a sum might be disputed in debating clubs as long as they
pleased, but towards which they could make no even sen-
sible approximation by any measure which:a British Minister
could propose in the British Parliament, and for which a Bri-
tish Minister would be responsible. Let it not be suPPoSed
that it was easy to define what was direct and was Indirect
taxation. No one had been more anxious to reodce this im-
post than Sir R. Peel—but towards the eld of his life__
speaking, of course,of a time of peace-I,e was of opinion that
direct taxation had very nearly ar:firoached its limits, His
(the Chancellor of the ExcheAuer's) experience as finance
Minister was that not a fe..ngle day passed without his re-
ceiving cases illustrating the difficulty of levying of the
taxes, and he spc):.e within the mark when he said that,
though our dire of taxation formed a small part of the public
income, at 'least 49 .50ths of all the trouble, the personal
vexation* annoyance, and discontent incident to the pay-
ment cde money for purposes of the State arose out of direct
taxation, He grantel that 25 years ago matters were diffe-
rent, because at that time our commercial and fiscal sys-
tems were complicated, and full of every sort of inconveni-
ent arrangement; then our fiscal laws at every stage inter-
fered with, thwarted, billed, perplexed, and annoyed the
operations of industry. The constant labours of the house
had altered that state of things, and he believed now there
was no vexation or annoyance connected with the payment
of indirect taxes. He quite agreed as to the benefit which
had resulted. to the landed interest from our recent com-
mercial policy, but they must remember that that policy
had not consisted in the extirpation of indirect taxation.
It had, indeed, been often so described. But let the facts
always be borne in mind, that at the present time our in-
direct taxation was more vigorous and productive than ever.
(Hear.) His hon. friend proposed a property tax of one
quarter per cent. That really seemed so mild a proposition
that no one could feel any dtNeulty in acceding to a con" •
mittee which was to end in a proposition of so moderate a
character. That propcsition, which seemed soinnocent, was
really an income tax of 10 per aent. on the landed property
of the country. No doubt the landed proprietors would be
able to pay that tax in time of war; but if the proposal was
submitted to him as one of fiscal reform, he would naturally
inquire whether others were paying in the same propor-
tion. The hon. gentleman said the property of the country
was 8,000 millions; but he seemed to forget that included
every table and chair in every cottage in the country.
How would the hon. gentleman '<set over the preliminary
difficulty of valuation ? The hon. gentleman had re-
ferred to the Northern States of America, but he found
in the New York Almanac a list cf every person who
had a house, with the amount of his property. That pro-
perty had, however, gone through a sweating-down process
before being enumerated; for though there were, no doubt,
merchant princes in New York, not one of them was de-
scribed as being wort :a £l,OOO. If this process were adopted
the hon. gentlem-Aros 8,000 millions would shrink to 2,000
millions, and '.:ne a per cent. would have to be raised in pro-
portion; e,O that, instead of an income of 10 per cent. he
would 'nave to levy one of 20 or 30 per cent. (Hear, hear.)
H.e (the right hen. gentleman) thought they ought to avoid
the risk of holding out any expectation to Parliament or to
the country which there was not a reasonable expectation of
being fulfilled. It would therefore be wise to avoid any
fundamental charges in taxation which were not required
by justice, and which were not practicable. It was better
not to talk too largely about the removal of certain taxes
until they had laid the basis for such an operation by pro-
viding materials to deal with. He hoped the hon. gentleman
would be satisfied with the opportunity he had had of mak-
ing his views known to the house and to the country, and
that he would not press his motion to a division. (Hi ar.)
Mr. O'REILLY thought the motion indicated a sound
line of investigation, and one adapted for a committee of
the house. The time had arrived when they were no longer
in a state of experiment, and when they might reasonably
investigate the fiscal principles which experience had proved
to be so sound. The committee ought to investigate the
proportion of direct to indirect taxation, and should report
what change might be made in the present proportion. He
felt assured that such an inquiry would satisfy the public
mind to a great extent that our present system of taxation
was not so unjust as some persons imagined. He hoped
that if his hon. friend brought forward his motion in another
session, he would confine the terms of the reference to the
general question of taxation.

After a few remarks from Mr. EWALT,
Mr. WHITE withdrew the motion.
INNS OF COURT.

Sir G. BOWYER obtained leave to introduce a bill to
enable the benchers of the Inns of Court to appoint judicial
committees in certain cases, and to give the necessary
powers to such committees.
TREASURE TROVE.

Sir J. C. JERVOISE moved that an address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously
pleased to cause lull information to be given to the house
on the subject of treasure trove ; and further, that she
would cause such measures to be taken as would tend to
make the enforcement of the rights of the Crown more uni-
form and more consistent with the legitimate claims of the
owners of property where objects of interest and value are
discovered for which no owner can be found. The hon.
member adverted to the small amount of attention which
the subject had excited until late years, and brought his
retrospect down to the police order issued in 1860. He was
proceeding with his remarks, when
An HON. MEMBER moved that the house be coented, and
there being only 24 members present,
The house adjourned at half past 7 o'clock.

Mme. Meyerbeer has left Paris far Germany.
Just before her departure, she received a letter of condolence
from the Princess Royal of Prussia.
THE ORDER OF AMARANTA.—It was said indeed
that the English order of the Garter gave Christina
the idea of an order of her own, When Charles 11. was
in exile, he showed his bad taste by sending the Garter
to Charles Gustavus. Christina, who wished to stand
well with Cromwell, refused to let the Prince accept it,
and said that "she would not let any member of her
flock be marked by the hand of a stranger," but the cir-
cumstance seemed to have suggested her order of the
Amaranta. Christina had chosen this name for herself at
the fete; it signifies immortal. The new oilier consisted of
15 ladies and 15 gentlemen, and they all dined with the
Queen at one of her country houses every Saturday, The
rules were not less fanciful than the origin of the Amaranta.
The Queen, seated on her throne, received the intended
knight, who was supported by his godfathers in chivalry.
The aspirant knelt and swore between the Queen's hands,
to be faithful and to maintain the interests of the Order.
Those who were unmarried, swore that they would never
marry; those who were already married, swore that they
would not contract the bonds of wedlock a second time.
After the administration of the oath, they were invested
with the insignia, which was made of gold and diamonds,
and represented a double A.A. intertwined, and a band with
the inscription, " Dolce nella memoria,"—lfemoirs of
Christina Queen of Sweden.

Persons who have been in the habit of paying weekly as
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formation given on application; or by letteraddressed, with
a stamped envelope, to Messrs. Watts and Co.,C 12, Beaufort-
buildings, Strand, London, MG, where mein rs are en-
:oiled daily between 10 and 4; Saturdays, 10 anGt
[ADVERTISEMENT.]—E olio way's Ointwent.—All varie-
ties of ulcerations, sores, wounds, and eruptions can be
cured by the diligent use of this cooling, soothing, and
healing unguent. The old and often failing fashion of
strapping edges of ulcers together with plaster has entirely
given way before the more reasonable treatment of Hollo-
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wound with sound and healthy granulations • these gra-
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contract, harden, and immediately become covered with a
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ointment diminishes the inflammation, cause the unhealthy
discharges first to grow thick, and then to cease, when the
swelling disappears, and the natural shape is restored.

The Cause of Garibaldi's Departure from
England,

DEPUTATION TO THE CHANCELLOR OF THE
EXCHEQUER.

Yesterday afternoon the Chancellor of the Exchequer re-
ceived, by invitation, at his official residence in Downing-
street, a deputation from the City and Working Men's
Garibaldi Committees, for the purpose of affording them, if
they desired, any further explanations as to the part he had
taken in connection with the departure of General Garibaldi
from this country. The deputation consisted of Mr Beales,
the chairman. and Messrs. J. R. Taylor, W. Sheen, and B.
Langley (of the City); and Mr E. Odgers and Mr R.
Hartwell, the secretary of the Working Men's Committee.
Mr BEALES said the deputation had attended in conse-
quence of understanding that he (Mr Gladstone) desired to
make to them some statements on the subject of the de-
paiture of General Garibaldi.

Mr GLADSTONE—WeII, there are certain wrong impres-
sions floating about which I am desirous of placing in a cor-
rect light, and I desire to put myself, as it were, in the wit-
ness-box, and state all I know upon the subject, to render a
true account of the matter so far as I am concerned. In the
first place, I would remark that the report I have seen in
the daily papers, purported to be made by Mr Shaen, at a
public meeting on Saturday, is, so far as I am concerned,
very incorrect—in fact, entirely untrue in every particular.
At the same time, I do not for one moment impute to Mr
Shaen that he stated anything but what he believed to be
true. I am ready to answer any question that mey be put
to me, or at once to enter into a narrative of the part I took
in the matter in question.
Mr SHAEN—WiII Mr Gladstone state in detail to what
part of my statement he objects, I did not make that state-
ments entirely on facts within my personal knowledge, but
some of them were made upon the authority of old and inti-
mate friends of Garibaldi, whose names I am prepared to
give, who were in constant personal communication with
him up to the moment of his leaving England. Immedi•
ately on its being rumoured that Garibaldi was going to
leave England without visiting the country, Mr Joseph
Cowen, jun., of Newcastle-on-Tyne, one of Gen. Garibaldi'a
oldest and most intimate friends in this country, was tele-
graphed to London. He came up on the Tuesday evening,
and had a private interview of one hour with the General,
in which the whole subject connected with his departure
was discussed. Mr Cowen on leaving the General called
on ;ale, and told me what had taken place. lat once drew
up a statement in accordance with what Mr Cowen had
told me, and submitted it to that gentleman, who confirmed
it as correct. That paper contained the principal statement
I made on Saturday last.
Mr GLADSTONE—I again say I do not wish it to be under-
stood I attribute any wilful untruths to Mr Sheen or to any
other gentleman, Perhaps it may be more desirable for me
to state the exact part I took in the transaction. I will
begin with the meeting or conference at Stafford House on
Sunday evening, the 17th of April, for of what is said by Mr
Shaen to have transpired previous to that, I have no personal
knowledge. On the evening in question I made one of
eight gentlemen who assembled at Stafford House by in-
vitation. Besides myself, there were present—the Duke of
Sutherland, Lord Shaftesbury, Mr Seely, M.P., Signor
Negretti, General Ebor, Mr Stansfeld, M.P., and Colonel
Peard. We had Dr. Fergusson's letter before us, and upon
that letter we came to a unanimous conclusion that it
would be exceedingly perilous for the General to go through
his programme. The question then arose, who should
make this proposition to the General. I was suggested, but
declined. General Ebor and Colonel Peard at last
volunteered, and they accordingly went into the Gene-
ral's room, and stated the conclusion to which his
friends had come, On the return of those gentlemen, they
said the General wished to see me, and I went into his room
alone, and had a long conversation with him in Italian.
What I stated in the House of Commons to have oocurred at
that interview is correct. I told the General I thought his
health would be endangered if he carried out his programme,
and that my own impression was confirmed by the letter of
Dr. Fergusson. I urged him at any rate to confine his visits
to two or three of the larger towns. I diet not say that about
the reception attributed to me in Mr. Shaun's speech.
What I said was that such a munificent reception was not
in the nature of things likely to bear repetition. With re-
spect to anything said about the Government wishing him
to go, or that complications would arise if he did not, it was
not true. Nothing was said that could be so construed,
There was nothing of a political character in the conversa-
tion. So far from, as has been stated, shifting my ground
several times and returning to the attack, all that I said I
said at once and continuously, Not one syllable about the
desire of the Government that the General should leave
escaped my lips, and I contess that I was never more asto-
nished—though I have been often really astonished—than
when I read in print what was stated to have taken place.
All that I said or did was to urge the General. net to peril
his health, and in giving that advice I was, in a great mea-
sure, guided by the letter of Dr. Fergusson. The General
heard me with much attention, acknowledged that he felt
great exhaustion, and said that as there would be conside-
rable difficulty in selecting two or three towns to visit out
of the number on his list, he should give up the towns
altogether. He also added that as his only motive in
coming to England was to thank the Government and the
people for the assistance and sympathy they had given to
his ce,untry, and as that had b-en accomplished he had better
now return, and take another opportunity of visiting the
English provinces. I can safely say nothing else transpired
between myself and the General of the slightest importance.
Mr, SHAEN—WhiIe I am willing to accept the Chancel-
lor's explanation I am prepared to say that the General
himself was under the impression, and remained so up to
the time he left England, that the Government wished him
to be off. He expressed himself so to me and to all
his friends. I said to him, "I think the Government
will regret their conduct after you have left, if not before."
The reply of the General was " If the Government feel re-
gret, there is time between this and Friday to remove it."
There could be no doubt as to the impression entertained by
Garibaldi, for on my putting the question to him he said he
did not consider the explanation made by Lord Palmerston
in the House of Commons released him, and that it had
now become a question between the English Government
and the English people: It was certainly possible that,

although Mr. Gladstone had not introduced the name of
the Government, Garibaldi had derived his impression from
the fact of his having been urged to terminate his visit by

one whom he knew to be an influential member of the Go.
vernment.

Mr. GLADSTONE—Of course I cannot be held responsible
for a man's impressions, If General Garibaldi was under
that impression I am extremely sorry for it.
Mr. BEALES thought it was impossible to doubt the state-
ment made by Mr. Gladstone, but had no doubt he would
admit it was highly desirable, both for the sake of the
Government and himself, that the matter should be fully
cleared up.
Mr. ODGERS thought it strange that the very parties who
had been instrumental in leading Garibaldi into one con-
tinued round of receptions and parties from morning until
night should, on the eve of his departing to go amongst the
people, become suddenly so solicitous about his health. The
General had told him personally, after all this fuss had been
made about Dr. Fergusson's letter, that he had never been
in better health in his life. If his health had been affected
they could not charge that upon the working classes, as the
aristocracy bad pretty well kept him to themselves.

Mr. GLADSTONE—I must repeat, I acted entirely and in
good faith upon Dr. Ferguson's letter.

Mr. B. LANGLEY—The letter was not a diagnosis, but a
prognosis; it was one of prophecy only.
Mr. J. R. TAYLOR-012 every occasion Garibaldi struck
out from all the statements and addresses wi itten for him all
allusions to the bad state of his health. He thought this a
significant fact.
Mr, BEALES—At least we may arrive at the conclusion
that the sudden departure of the General was caused by
other parties, and was not his own wish.

Mr. GLADSTONE—I do not admit that.
Mr. B. LANGLEY—There still remains the awkward fact
of Dr. Fergusson's letter. Why was it written, or at whose
orders? It must have been asked for by some one. It was
in direct contradiction of the letter of Garibaldi's own phy-
sician.

Mr. GLADSTONE—Th!s is a question that concerns Dr.
Fergusson.

Bin B. LANGLEY said it appeared to him that Mr. Glad-
stone had unconsciously allowed himself to be made use of
by other parties for the purpose.

Mr. GLADSTONE—I cannot admit that. I think the
General acted wisely in going as he did, with the intention
of returning at a more convenient period.

Mr. SHAEN said there could be no doubt that at the time
Lord Shaftesbury and Mr. R innaird were leaving Mr.
Seely's house on the Sunday, that gentleman said to them,
"The first thing is to get FerguFson's letter." This was
said in the hearing of Mr. Richardson, the secretary of the
City Committee. This looked as if there was a plot in
progress.

Mr. GLADS TONE—AII I can say'is, I am perfectly igno-
rant of the circumstances under which Dr. Fergusson's
letter was written. I only acted upon it in good faith, and
it was in accordance with my own feelings on the matter.
Some further remarks having been made by Messrs.
Taylor, Hartwell, and Beales, as to the words, ".Obliged
to leave," used in Garibaldi's letter to the City Committee,
but in whose conclusion the Chancellor of the Exchequer
could not agree,

Mr. GLADSTONE again assured the deputation he had
stated all he knew. He had nothing to conceal, and was
happy to have had the opportunity of making this expla-
nation.

The deputation then retired, the interview having lasted
one hour and a quarter.

A letter from Toulon says :—" The effects of the
events in the South of Algeria have been felt as far
as the bagne at this port, where they have so excited the
ardour of the Arab convicts that two evenings ago one of
them, doubtless taking the arid plains of Castigneau for a
part of the Sahara, endeavoured to effect his escape, but
very soon met with the bayonet of a sentry. On being
brought back, bound hand and foot, the Arab attempted to
excuse his conduct by saying that the religion of Mahomet
imposed on him the obligation of going to defend the tents
of his tribe. A slight bastinado was administered to him
to calm his exaggerated patriotism,"