The Sun.
London, England, 1864-05-06 00:00:00

THE ARMY ESTIMATES.

After some remarks from Sir H. Winimuomyr and Mr.
ANGERSTEIN, the house went into committee of supply on
the army estimates.
On the vote of £262,216, less by £2,000 than was origi-
nally proposed, for defraying the expense of the medical
department of the army,
Colonel NORTH callod attention to the present ineffi-
cient state of the medical department of the army, and ob-
served that, so far from carrying out the recommendations
of the committee of 1858, in favour of having one surgeon
and two assistant-surgeons to every regiment, there were
no less than 200 medical vacancies in the army. The hon.
and gallant member referred to the evidence of the Com-
mander-in-Chief, Sir Richard Airey, and other experienced
offiozs of distinction, to show the necessity of having the
medical staff of the army increased ; but such was the state
of things at present, that, although there were 200 vacan-
cies, medical students could not he induced to enter the
service.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON admitted that there was
considerable difficulty in obtaining a proper supply of medi-
cal officers for the army, but he could not allow that that
was owing to the provisions of the warrant to which the
gallant colonel (North) had alluded not having been car-
ried into effect. On the contrary, those provisions had been
very fairly given effect to. He was afraid that if the defi-
ciency was to be met, it must be through the House of Com-
mons granting increased remuneration to the medical
officers of the army.
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of £783,783,
for defraying the charge of the
disembodied militia,

Colonel DUNNE complained that the expenses thrown
on anbaltern officers in the militia deterred gentlemen from
joining that branch of the service.
Colonel Noma said that the forage allowance to
mounted officers in the militia was very inadequate.
Lord ENFIELD said that it was at present very difficult
to obtain subaltern officers in the militia.
The Marquis of II A ItT IN GTO N believed that the allow-
ances made to militia regiments for expenses incurred dur-
ing the period they were out for training were in general
sufficient.
The vote was then agreed to.
The vote of E 17,886 for defraying the charge of the
yeomanry cavalry generally was like% ise agreed to.
On the vote of £39,3G0 for the permanent duty, training,
and exercising of the yeomanry cavalry,
Mr. LM W SON rose to oppose. Fr om h paring the speeches
of the noble lord the Prime Minister and the noble lord the
Under-Secretary of State for War, he had voted against

calling out the yeomanry cavalry this year. A week after-
wards he read a paragraph in the Times newspaper, stating
that a deputation of yeomanry cavalry officers had waited
on the noble lord, and the noble lord had said that, since
the last vote in the House of Commons, the Government
had carefully considered the subject. Ho (Mr. Lawson)
only regretted that the Government had not "carefully
considered the subject" before calling upon the house to
vote upon it. (Laughter.) " Within the last few days ad-
♦ices lied been received from New Zealand—(laughter)—
that were so favourable, that the Government would be able

to have the yeomanry cavalry without any addition to the
amount of the estimates. He had, therefore, great satisfac-
tion in stating that the yeomanry would be called out this

year, The noble lord also complimented tho ye,m anry on
their efficiency, and said he believed them to be a necessary

auxiliary to the rifle volunteers." (Laughter.) The lion,

member said, in concluding, he considered this an increase
of warlike expenditure in time of peace, and, although the
vote was small, he should oppose it, because the sum was
not required., (Hear, hear.)
The Mar quis of HARTINGTON observed, that since
the estimr.te was framed news had arrived that the war in
New Zealand would be concluded sooner than was antici-

pated. The necessity that existed before for the reduction
of eie sum for the yeomanry no longer existed, and that
sv'As the reason of the course taken by the noble lord at the

head of the Government. (Hear.) News had been received

that day from New Zealand equally, if not more, favourable
in its character. Therefore, the anticipations on which that

vote was added to the estimates had been fully carried out.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS and Colonel

ED WARDS, in favour of the yeomanry, the committee

divided.
For the vote
Against it
Majority for the vote —93
The vote was then agreed to.
The vote of £326,260 for the volunteers, after some dis-

cession, was agreed to.
The neat vote proposed waa £49,850 for enrolled pen-
sioners and the army reserve force. After some discussion
it was agreed to.
On the sum of L 973,031 being proposed for defraying the
expense of the manufacturing department and materials
for the manufacture of warlike stores,
Lord ELCHO, in remarking upon the large sum for the
manufacture of small arms, said that since 1851 a new
spirit appeared to take possession of the minds of men with
regard to the discovery of the best small arm for the de-
struction of the human species. The result was that, as
concerned the army of tkis country, it was, with the excep-
tion, perhaps, of the Prussian army, the best armed in the
world. The rifle was now the weapon of the British army,
and every marksman was fully aware of its great supe-
riority over the Brown Bess of former times. He would now
call attention to the broad results arrived at by the Ord-
nance select committee, who had carefully inquired into the
merits of the Whitworth large-bore rifle with service am-
munition, and the Enfield rifle. The conclusion at which
the committee had arrived was, that the ordinary Enfield
was inferior to every large-bore rifle they had tried. The
report of the committee condemned the Enfield rifle as re-
garded accuracy beyond the distance of 600 yards—but the
committee at the same time tried another r.fle which took
service ammunition, and was remarkably free from fouling,
vlz., the Lancaster oval-bore rifle. He understood that
there were 170,000,000 of ball cartridges in store, and

although the report of the Ordnance committee
bearing on this matter had
.been issued in No-
vember, 1862, it had remained a dead letter ever
since in the archives of the War-office. But
in the meantime the manufacture of small arms had not

ceased, for there were sums of money annually voted for the
purpose, and rifles of the condemned description, to the
amount of upwards of £130,000, had been manufactured by
the Government since November, 1862. He was aware
that attention had been drawn to another description of
large-bore ri&, which promised to give better results than
the Lancaster large-bore, at.d that it was desired to have
another trial of the Enfield. But why the Government

should thiak it necessary to have any more trials of the
Enfield he was at a loss to conceive. The Whitworth rifle

used an ammunition totally different from the service, so

that if it were a dopted it wculd necessitate the loss of the
170,000.000 of ball cartridges, and the adoption of new ma-
chinery. He ventured to think that the Government, as
soon as they saw the report of the Ordnance committee,

should have stopped the manufacture of the inferior article
and availed themselves of the Lancaster rifle. There were
great differences of opinion in urea's minds about the com-
parative merits of breech-loaders and muzzle-loaders ; but
all the old soldiers he had conversed with on the subject
expressed a preference for the breech-loader. If they sup-
posed that the army of this country were ordered to Den-
mark, everybody would be of opinion that it would be of the
greatest importance they should be armed with the same
weapon as the Prussian army, to whom they would be op-
posed. The Prussian army had for many years been armed
with the breech-loader ; and the Emperor of the Freneh was
trying to get the best breech-loader; and therefore he
thought her Majesty's Government should direct immediate
attention to the expediency of adopting breech-loaders.

The Marquis of HARTINGTON said the result of the
experiments which the Ordnance select committee had
been conducting was, that they considered the Whitworth
small-bore rifle the best military weapon which had come
before them. At the same time, they did not Lecommeud
a total re-armament of the troops for the present, as that
would necesitate a change in the ammunition; but
8,000 of these arms would be issued, and especially the 60th
Rises and the Rifle Brigade—regiments quartered in all
parts of the work—would be armed with them. As for the
Lancaster rifle, it was only superior to the Enfield at dis-
tances exceeding 500 yards. And though upon the whole
the committee were bound to testify that the Lancaster was
the superior weapon, it was the duty of Lord Do Grey to
see it that superiority was likely to be maintained, and to
judge if the competition which had already taken place was
to be final. It was much bet ter to make the trials as full
and complete as possible. Ho did not allow that Mr.
Lancaster had been badly treated, and in proof of that he
might say that Mr Lancaster had signed a receipt in full
for all his claims, and that the War Department had deter-
mined not to oppose the renewal of his patent. His own
impression was that ultimately both Mr Whitworth's small
bore and large bore would be adopted. As to breech loaders,
it would never do, in the face of the doubts which existed
as to the value of the principle, suddenly to adopt breech
loaders for the general use of the army.
Mr. VIVIAN supported the adoption of breech loaders,
and condemned the slew degrees with which the experi-
ments were being conducted, The large bore Whitworth
was just twice as accurate as the Lancaster rifle, which
Lord Elcho blamed the Geverment for not having adopted.
There was another point to which military men attached
great importance, and that was the use of hardened projec-
tiles. Now these could not be used with the Lancaster rifle,
while the Whitworth was admirably adapted for firing them.
He did not think the Government was fairly censurable for
the course they had taken.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought that both the present
and past Governments were to blame for expending large
sums of money before they had made up their minds
which was the best weapon. He also complained of the
increase of the charge of the establishments included in
this vote, and said he would move a reduction of £6,000
upon the vote, being the difference between the sum asked
for in the present year and that expended on the same de-
partments four years ago. He thought that Government
manufacture was carried too far, and that many things
were made in the national establishments which might be
more economically obtained by contract. He wished to
know what hal become of the enormous sum of money
which had been expended on guns during the last few years,
and especially on Armstrong guns. From 1858 to 1863 two
millions and a half (besides what had been expended o,
ammunition) had been expended on these guns. £183,000
had been laid out on 110 •pounders before it was ascertained
whether that class of guns would answer. As a matter of
fact, they turned out ill. Was, then, this £183,000 lost?
The hon. barenet concluded by moving the reduction of the
vote by £6,000.
Captain JERVIS said that as improvements went on it
became requisite to keep pace with them, and this neces-
sarily entailed considerable expense, The noble lord (Lord
Elcho) had looked at the question of the small arms more
with regard to target firing than with reference to use in
the field. The great advantage of the Lancaster rifle was
that it did not require the constant cleaning which was ne-
cessary for the Enfield and Whitworth rifles.
Mr. COBDEN thought that the hon, baronet the mem-
ber for Evesham had put his finger on a blot when he
traced the growth of our expenditure of late years to
the increase in our establishments. In 1841 we paid
£600,000 for wages in our dockards and for establish-
ment charges, This year we paid £1,300,000, besides
£450,000 for vessels built by contract. In the army
estimates an item for wages and superintendence was
almost unknown in 1841 ; this year it amounted to
£520,000, The House might depend upon it that when so
large an amount was paid on wages the Government was
incurring an immense amount of waste, because when-
ever they paid as a Government they would pay an
immensely higher price than they would in purchasing
from a private establishment. Another most serious view
of the question was :that whatever the heads of depart-
ments came for in that House they were sure to obtain.
(Hear, hear.) Since he came into the House twenty-three
years ago they had voted upwards of £500,000,000 under
the heads of army, navy, and ordnance, and he had never
known an item reduced or even altered in that House.
(Hear. hear.) Some people might say that the discussions
in that House must have an effect, inasmuch as there
was publicity attending them ; but the discussions seemed
to have no effect whatever on the heads of departments,
who knew that all they asked for would be granted, and
were consequently encouraged in making their demands.
There was no representative body in the world where there
was not a right of supervision, except in the English House
f Parliament. They had all read of a most important
which was subjected to the revision under
vthoetecionrpFsas
Lrieg,
islatif, and was considerably reduced. In
America supervision was exercised ; but in the English
House of Commons he never knew one item revised.
With reference to the wake he ventured to say that
much Came under the heads of stores and manufacturing
hey had sometimes heard
1. services. (Hear, hear.)
attempts made to show that the Government manufac-
turing establishments could be carried on as cheaply as
private establishments. Now be had friends on his left
and right who were largely engaged in business; they
had taken some pains in the investigation of the subject;
and he never heard one man in business who would not
have agreed that the Government wasted one, half in all
they manufactured for themselves. This was not merely
in the nature of the waste from the articles made, but arose
from the Government being their own customers, and
from having a large establishment where they were
constantly obligcd to make things, in order to