The Sun.
London, England, 1852-12-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENII`srG DECEMBER, 7, 1852.

posing a test on him when he took office in 1834-35.
(Hear, hear.) But in the first reformed Parliament Sir
R. Peel took the earliest opportunity of declaring that
he accepted the Reform Act as the irrevocable settle-
ment of a great constitutional question. (Hear, hear.)
Therefore there was no parallel between the position of
Sir Robert Peel in 1834-35 and the present position of
the noble earl at the head of the Government. (Hear,
hear.) The noble earl had ventured on somewhat deli-
cate and dangerous ground when he pointed out, to
the mover of the amendment and to other noble lords
the various periods when they abandoned the prin-
ciples of protection and turned Free-traders ; and,
though the noble earl ended by saying, " God forbid
that I should taunt anybody for a change of opinion !"
yet, by another allusion to the course taken by Sir
R. Peel and his colleagues in 1846, he appeared de-
sirous of expressing an opinion that there had been some
dereliction of duty, and some infraction of political
principle in the course then pursued. (Hear, hear.) The
noble earl said that he certainly objected, and still did,
to the manner in which, and the men by whom, the mea-
sure of 1846 was carried. He (the Duke of Newcastle)
did not deny, any more than Sir R. Peel or any of his
Government denied, a change of opinion, but the com-
plaint against the noble earl was that he had not changed
his opinion. If the noble earl had come forward and
said that his opinion had changed at the 11th or 12th,
or, it might be said the 13th, hour, then the present re-
solution would be unnecessary, He should then feel it
no more necessary to bind the Government than he
should to bind their lordships' house, which had never
swerved in any vote from the course of free trade during
the last 10 years. [Here the Earl of Derby made some
observation.] He repeated the words " during the last
ten years ;" for from 1842 to the present year there was
no instance in which that house had attempted to reverse
the course of free trade. In 1842 the whole of the
tariff was carried in their lordships' house either with
no division or by considerable majorities. The repeal of
the corn laws in 1846 was carried, notwithstanding the
strong opposition and eloquent speech of the noble earl
opposite, uner the guidance of that great and illustrious
man, whose warning voice would not again be heard in
difficulty and danger. (Hear, hear.) In the same year the
alteration of the sugar duties was carried, the noble earl
opposite declining to divide the house ; and two years
later, in spite of the noble earl's opposition, the repeal
of the navigation laws was carried by a strong thajority.
From that time to the present, notwithstanding all the
speeches made in that house, and the violent attacks on
the course pursued—though they were told that ruin had
overtaken the country, and that their ooureo was most
disastrous notwithstanding all this, that house had
never swerved from the free-trade course. (Hear, hear.)
Therefore, any resolution, as far as that house was con-
cerned, merely expressing adherence to principles from
which the house had never swerved, was unnecessary,
and the only reason for passing the resolution, though a
milk-and-water one, would be that it might be binding
on the Government and the noble earl, whose course had
altered, but whose opinion he had himself stated to re-
main unchanged. If it were the desire of the house to
adopt the proposal of the noble earl on the cross benches
(the Earl of Harrowby), he should be unwilling to pro-
tract the discussion, being satisfied that whatever resolu-
tion might be passed by the house, the great cause of
free trade and enlightened commercial policy was per-
fectly safe, because its principles were based on the im-
mutable grounds of justice. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BEAUMONT, in reference to what had fallen
from Lord Stran,gford, said they did not want the noble
lord, the member for Tiverton, in that house, because
his genius was present there, for the noble lord on the
cross benches had proposed an amendment which ap-
peared to be approved of by all parties. (Laughter.) He
expressed his willingness to withdraw his own amend-
ment. •

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE consented to the
alteration of the resolution as proposed by the Earl of
Harro wby.
The Earl of DERBY, in expressing his concurrence.
in this arrangement, observed that it was a curious
coincidence that in both houses the different parties had
been brought more in harmony by a resolution inter-
posed. (Laughter.)
The resolution, as altered by the Earl of Harrowby,
was then agreed to, in the following terms :
" That this house adheres to the commercial system
recently established, and would view with regret any
renewed attempt to disturb its operation, or impede its
future course."
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE desired that it
should be entered on the journals that the resolution
was passed nent. dis. (Hear, and laughter.)
GREECE.

Lord STANLEY of Alderley, pursuant to notice, in-
quired of the Government whether there was any ob-
jection to lay before Parliament a copy of the protocol
signed by England and the four great European powers
respecting the canton of Neufchatel ; and also of the

convention between England, Russia, France, Bavaria,
and Greece, for the settlement of the succession of the
throne of Greece ; and to ask a question respecting a
report that there had been some recent changes in the
political relations of the territory of Montenegro ?
The Earl of MALMESBURY— My lords, with
respect to the first question put to me by the noble
baron, I can only make to him the same reply that
I did last session. Negotiations have not been pro-
ceeded with subsequently to that period, and the
protocols to which he alludes have not been prepared
to be laid upon the table of your lordships' house ;
but they give her Majesty's Ministers the power
of choosing their own time to begin these nego-
tiations. The prevent dope not appear to hor Ma-
jesty's Government to be a proper time for entering
into these negotiations, and the other parties who have

signed the pr—otocols are of the same opinion as her Ma-
jesty's Government upon that point. With respect to
the treaty relating to the Greek possession which has
just been signed between the four powers, it will be in
your lordships' recollection that when the independence
of Greece was accomplished, it was considered an object
of great importance that the dynasty should be secured
to that people, and that the succession of that dynasty in
a regular line should be guaranteed by the contracting
powers of Russia, France, and England. After the dy-
nasty had been secured, and Greek independence made
safe, the Greeks themselves framed a constitution, and
the articles in that constitution declared that no future
King of Greece should be of any religion but the Greek
faith. It is known to your lordships that the present
King of Greece Was brought up from his childhood in the
Roman Catholic religion, the consequence of which is,
that the treaty has never been enforced. It ap-
peared desirable that the same guarantee should ex-
tend so far as the constitutional wishes of the Greek
people were embodied in their constitution, and that the
three powers should guarantee to the Greek people that
the future King of Greece should be of their own faith, as
well as the dynasty which had been guaranteed to the
Greek nation in 1832. It became necessary, therefore,
to accomplish this end, and to revise the treaty of 1832,
for the purpose of rendering it more in accordance with
the 40th article of the constitution. Her Majesty's
Government thereupon invited the Courts of Russia and
France to join them in the endeavour to accomplish that
object, and the three courts together have revised the
treaty and signed the convention accordingly. But I
believe I am in order when I say that it is not the cus-
tom to lay such treaties upon the table until the act of
ratification has taken place. The last of the questions
of which the noble baron has given me notice is, whether
any change has been effected in the state of the
political relations of that wild country situated
on the borders of Albania, and called Montenegro.
I believe that since her Majesty's present Govern-
ment have come into office there has been no change
whatever in the state of those relations. The chief
of that country bears a double title. He is the head of
the Greek Church in his own country, and he is also the
temporal sovereign of that country. But, as head of
the Greek Church in his own country, he is under the

jurisdiction of the Emperor of Russia, who, your lord-
ships know, is looked upon as the head of the whole
Greek Church. The chief of Montenegro has, therefore,
been, as his ancestors have been before him, to the Court
of St. Petersburgh, to receive the sanction of the Em-
peror to his episcopal jurisdiction and titles at Monte-
negro.. With respect to the independence of that coun-
try, whatever may be the opinion of different persons
upon that question, it seems to be a question rather for
antiquaries than for Cabinets to settle. But the prac-
tical fact is, that it has been an independent country
something like 250 years—and although various at-
tempts have been made by the Porte upon its in-
dependence, they have only lost large armies in the
effort to subjugate it, and he believed that, in
its present practical position, it remained, as far as
possible, the same now that it was 200 years ago.
THE FRENCH EMPIRE.
The NOBLE EARL then continued as follows—Having
thus answered the question of the noble baron, it now
becomes my duty to announce to your lordships an event
which you must have all long since expected but which
is not diminished in importance by the circumstance
that it has been so long expected and foreseen. I allude
to a notification which has been made to her Majesty's
Government by the Secretary of State for Foreign ,
Af-
fairs at Paris, announcing that the French people have
determined to change the constitution of their govern-
ment from a republic to an empire, and to attach to the
Prince President of the Republic the imperial dignity of
Emperor. That notification was made to me on Thurs•
day last, and having been communicated by me to her
Majesty's Government, her Majesty's servants have
thought it right, without further delay or hesitation, to
advise her Majesty cordially to accept and recognise the
new constitution selected by the French people for their

own government. My lords, it has been, as yourlordship;
know, our usual policy for the last twenty-two years—
indeed ever since the revolution of 1830 in Paris— to

acknowledge the constitutional doctrine that a people
ihnatverfere
earingehe of attocny chose their
power!r own sovereign ;
and the sovereign
having withoutsoerio
ethe
having been freely chosen by them, that that sovereign
or ruler, or by whltever name he may be called, being
de facto ruler of his country, should be recognised by
the sovereign of this. If there may have been formerly
any doubt existing as to what was the distinct will of a
nation in the respect to the choice of their sovereign—if
we have doubted for one moment the distinct intention
of a people at any former time—upon this occasion, my
lords, it is perfectly impossible to mistake their un-
doubted determination—three times in the most solemn
7—three times expressed for the same person, in
tNaviierni(illo at public manner, perhaps, of which history can
an example. At the revolution of 1848,
republic succeeded to the monarchy of Louis
Philippe,
the present Emperor of France was resid-
ingimportance, usuali n
canvasstll country,
sdrihes.na
yt
oa, takes s plwentace oavte relNeveittiho
elections
noneof theomfin o r
fwectituhalnmotabginngitubduetelsheiswhnearme
e;_hae
went over, I may
name so great in France that it is evidently infused with
a magic which has an effect upon the people that experi-
ence only has been able to make Europe understand.

We caa always comprehend how the fate of Napoleon,
so chequered as it was and such a picture of immense
glory and immense misfortune as it presented, was
exactly calculated to raise all the sympathies and in-
terests of human nature ; and we cannot, therefore,
wonder that it made a lasting impression upon the
people over whom he ruled so long and so greatly. But,
my lords, it is scarcely possible for any person in any
European state out of France to suppose that the
prestige of that name remains so long, so steadily, and
so strongly, that thirty-seven years after his abdication,
his nephew should have appeared in three different
characters before the French people within the course
of four years—first offering himself without any of
the necessaries of courts or governments to assist him—
first, as simple President of the French Republic with a
Chamber ; secondly, as absolute President of the French
Republic without any constitutional form of government ;
and thirdly, as Emperor of the same people :—first,
elected by six millions—next elected by seven millions—
and lastly, elected by nearly eight millions, a number
that would form almost the entire male adult population
of France. The present is not the time to speculate upon
the reasons for this extraordinary exhibition of senti-
ment and conviction on the part of the French people.
But I think that if we hate long lost sight of the power
of that name in France, it has been because we have not
sufficiently observed that up to this moment, in the
chances and changes which have taken place in the
government of that country, only one part of her
population was consulted. It was in Paris alone
that those changes have taken place. It was in Paris
alone that the fates of Louis Philippe and Charles
X. were determined. It was by the voice of the Pari-
sians alone that the republic was established in the year
1848, and although both forms of government successively
met with the silent approbation of the country, yet on
no one occasion until the President of the Republic was
elected in 1848, were the whole mass of the French
people consulted with regard to what form of govern-
ment they preferred, or what manner of man they sought.
In the mass or the French people one recollection—one
only, and one strong partiality prevails ; and I think it
is not difficult to understand why this should be. In
1815, at the time of the Restoration, the French army—
an enormous French army—was disbanded. It was
poured back again upon the hearths of the population.
The prisoners of war returned from all parts of the world
in thousands and tens of thousands, and I believe I am
not exaggerating the number when I say that, perhaps
400,000, or from that to half a million of men, with one
fixed idea in their minds, and with one—l may call it—
worship fixed in their hearts, then returned to their
homes. For 20 or 30 years afterwards they talked and
they thought but of one man ; and they thought and
they spoke of him as the great idol of their imagina-
tion • and though they need hardly have exaggerated

be opened to competition. The old bed of the brieige
would be considerably enlarged, and the, existing
bridge would be kept until the new one was completed
for traffic.

In answer to a question from Mr. V. SMITH,
The NOBLE LORD said, that lateral additions would
be made to the present bridge, which would remain while
the new bridge was being erected.
• PETITIONS.

Mr. T. DUNCONIBE presented two petitions from
Finsbury in favor of the repeal of the taxes on knowledge.
Sir J. SHELLEY presented a similar petition from a
recent meeting at Exeter Hall.
GRA.7gD JURIES.

In reply to Mr. T. IYUNCOMBE,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was his inten-
tion, immediately after the recess, to re-introduce the bill
for the abolition of grand juries within the metropolitan
police district.
RECENT POOR LAW ORDER.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the Chief Commis-
sioner of the Poor Law Board, whether any instructional
letter or other document accompanied the poor law or-
der of the 25th day of August, 1852, on out-door relief,
which was addressed to 110 unions ; and, if any such
letter or document, whether he would place a copy of
the same on the table of the house : also, whether there
was any information in the poor law office as to pay-
ments to persons " out of work," or "in aid of wages,"
out of the poor rate, in any unions in England and
Wales ; and, if any, whether he would place a copy of
such information on the table of the house.

Sir J. TROLLOPE said, an instructional letter dated
25th August, had been issued by the board, in regard to
their recent order with respect to out-door relief, and it
was now on the table of the house, and would shortly be
printed. As to the other question, he would have
no objection to lay on the table all the information
which had been received by the board, if the right hon.
gentleman moved for it.
WEST GLOUCESTER ELECTION.
After short discussion, the petition complaining of
the proceedings at the last election for West Gloucester,
was Withdrawn on the ground of informality.
PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
Mr. EWART inquired of the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, whether it was the intention of
her Majesty's Government to propose the appointment
of a commission to inquire into the state of our public
schools, with a view to extending and otherwise improv-
ing the system of instruction in the same.
Mr. WALPOLE said, it was not the intention of Go-
vernment.

The'Hox. MEMBER then gave notice that on an early
day he would call the attention of the house to the sub-
ject.

ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND).
Mr. MONSELL asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, whether it was the intention ofthe Go-
vernment to introduce any measure during the present
session for the continnanoe of the Encumbsred Estates
Court in Ireland.
Mr. WALPOLE said that the subject was under
the consideration of tne Government, but he might give
an assurance that they had no intention of abridging
the powers that existed at present for the disposal of
estates in Ireland.
RAILWAYS IN INDIA.
Sir H. MADDOCK asked the President of the
Board of Control, whether it was intended to encourage
by a guarantee such as had been afforded to other rail-
way undertakings in India, or by any other means, the
early commencement of a line of railroad between Alla-
habad and Delhi.

Mr. HERRIES said, the Court of Directors as well
as the Goverment had directed their attention to the
matter, but as yet had come to no definite decision as to
granting a guarantee.

the law was concerned. Incomes derivable from the
funds paid the tax in England, and Ireland was only ex-
empted. through a clause which had been introduced into
the in cc nue tax. Government not only believed that they
were ,i4.ght in law, but that their recommendations
were f 'founded in justice. He should, therefore, be pre-
pared to lay on the table, either to-night or to-morrow,
resolutions based upon the bold financial scheme sha-
dowed: forth on Friday. Of course, he could not expect
the ho use to dispose of all those resolutions at this time
of yea sr ; but Government was quite ready to stand or
fall upon any single one of them. Their policy must be
taken a s a whole, and on Friday next they should call
upon th e house to decide for or against it in the committee
which xvould be taken on the tea duties and the house
tax. fl lean)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could conceive no graver
matter -than that which had just been brought before the
house ; and when the proper time arrived, he should be
prepared fully to discuss it, well knowing the danger of
making any alteration in the principles of taxation
which had been established by several successive
Parliaa tents. It would be, however, for the Go-
vernm nt to select which subject they would wish
the horuse to pronounce upon first, but he thought
before they proceeded to make any reductions in
the tax es the house ought to be called upon to vote
the way s and means by which the deficiency should be
made up.
Mr. ,GOULBURN took exception to the argument
taken -al 0 by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and con-
tended that it would be a violation of the contract which
had be en entered into with the public creditor to require
funded property in Ireland to pay income tax. With
respect to the tea duties, there would be no diffi-
culty in dealing with that question in a com-
mittee of the whole house, but with regard to the
other question of increasing the house tax, that could
only be done in a committee of ways and means.
Sir C. WOOD said, the house could proceed to re-
duce t'ne tea duties by way of bill, but the other matter
of the house tax could only be dealt with in Committee
of Ways and Means. He thought, under these cir-
cumstances, the Budget ought to be treated as a whole
on Priday next, though they might single out one
resolution upon which to take the discussion.
Mr. WALPOLE said the Government could not
bring -the whole of the resolutions before the house on
Friday, but they proposed to take the opinion of the
house on the reduction of the tea duties and the exten-
sion of the house tax, which involved the whole financial
policy of the Government.
Sir J. V. SHELLEY did not think there was any
necessity for pressing the house-tax to an immediate
decision, as before any reduction of taxation could take
place the re-imposition of the income tax must be
decided on.
Lord JOHN MANNERS said, the deficit in the tea
duti•as would be about made up by the increase in the
house-tax, and he was at a loss to understand what
objection there could be to taking both questions to-
grAher. (Hear, bear.) Doubling the house-tax
'ould only produce about half a million next
year, while the reduction in the tea-duties would
cause a loss to the revenue of 400,0001. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT said what ho and his friend ob-
jected to was, they could not consent to reduce
taxes until they had decided upon the question of
the income tax, which was at present one of the main
soursces of the revenue. (Hear, hear.) It was folly
for the house to pledge itself to reduce taxes until they
had decided upon other ways and means, which must
expire in due course, unless some resolution was taken
by the house.
Mr. E. DENISON took the same view of the matter
as the last speaker.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY also thought the imposition
of the house tax, if it were necessary, should form the
end, and nob the commencement, of their financial legis
lation.

Mr. MACGREGOR said the income tax must be
r settled in the first instance, or the finances of the coun-
try would be thrown into a state of confusion and un-
certainty.
The report was then received.
EXCHEQUER BILLS.
Mr. WILLIAMS inquired what was to be the rate of
exchequer bills.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the rate was not yet fixed, but he would announce it as
soon as it was necessary. Since he had been in office it
had only been fixed once, and that was in the month of
May last, when he had reduced it, and thus saved the
country 37,0001. per annum.
SUPPLY.
The order of the day was then read for the house resolv-
ing itself into committee of supply. On the question that
the Speaker do leave the chair
Mr. HUME said he understood the proposition to be sub-
mitted to the committee included a sum of 435,000/. • viz.,
113,0001. for the navy supplementary estimate, 92,0001. for
the ordnance supplementary estimate, 150,0001. for the
National Gallery, and 80,0001. for the expenses attending
the funeral of the Duke of Wellington. He complained
that the recommendations of the committees on the naval
and ordnance services had not been properly earned out, and
said that the manner in which our ships were built, and
afterwards cut down, or otherwiAe altered, was most dis-
graceful. The time had come when some alteration was
absolutely necessary. Our army and navy cost together be-
tween 12,000,0001. and 13,000,0001. A large portion of that
expenditure was altogether unnecessary, and when no effi-
cient efforts were made to diminish the expenditure in these
departments, it was the duty of the house to pause before it
consented to add anything to the taxation of the country.
(Hear, hear.) Before making auy advances, the hoUse ought
to be in possession of the plans of the Government. Within
the last few years upwards of 2,000,000 had been
laid out in fortifications, and other constructions
which were perfectly useless. The house ought to profit
by experience, and not vote away money in this manner.
The committee on naval affairs had decided that 100 ad-
Mirals were quite sufficient ; but 150 were kept up, and
fresh ones promoted almost every day for no useful purpose
whatever. (Hear, hear.) He believed the navy was never
in a more efficient state than after the right hon. baronet
near him (Sir J. Graham) had reduced the expenditure
nearly 1,000,0001. in one year. (Hear, hear.) Why were
our ships scattered all over the ocean if there was any truth
in the statement that we were in imminent danger at home ?
He believed that Napoleon 111. would find the strength of
his Government to consist in peace, and that the stability
of the institutions of that country would be best main-
tained by the encouragement of free trade. (Hear, hear.)
With respect to the grant for the National Gallery, no in-
formation whatever had been laid before the house ; and
until some information was afforded by the right honour-
'able gentleman he should object to any grant whatever.
The removal of the pictures to Kensington-gardens, where
they could be of very little use, was under the management
of a particular clique, and he thought tho circumstances
altogether very suspicious. He would put it to the house
whether such a grant was called for at the time when they
were asked to double the house tax. (Cheers.) Then with
regard to the expenses of the funeral, before any vote was
taken a full statement of all the expenses incurred ought
to be submitted to the house. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
was no vote before the house for building a National Gal-
lery. The only vote to be brought forward was for the
purchase of land under rather peculiar circumstances, a
portion of which might certainly be subsequently devoted
to the erection of a National Gallery. But that had no-
thing to do with the question now before the house. When
that vote come on he should take the liberty of laying be-
fore the committee the reasons which had induced the Go-
vernment to ask the house to vote a sum equal to that
which, was to be contributed by the commissioners of the
Great Exhibition for purposes of great national interest and
importance. There was no specific vote for the National
Gallery, and the only object of the vote was the purchase
of the land to which he had alluded. With regard to the
funeral of the great man now at rest, he begged
to remind the house of the taunt thrown out that
the expenditure would probably be a quarter of a mil-
lion. It was very desirable to vote the necessary supply at
once, by which means the accounts could be brought to a
close and no inconsiderable amount saved. (Hear, hear.)
A detailed statement would be laid on the table showing
how every shilling had been expended. He certainly had
stated that he should be prepared, on a fitting occasion, to
bring forward the views of the Government on administra-
tive reform ; but, before doing so, it would be necessary to
dispose of these financial measures. It was impossible to
embark in questions of such magnitude and importance
before disposing of the financial measures which ho had
submitted to the house. (Hear, hear.) If the house
should be opinion that it was necessary to place the coun-
try in an efficient state of defence, he trusted his hon.
friend the Secretary of the Admiralty would at once be
allowed to proceed with his statement.
The house then resolved itself into committee—Mr. W
PATTEN in the chair.

Mr. A. STAFFORD said he trusted, after the remarks
of his right hon. friend, he should not be expected to in,
cumber the question now before the committee with any
reference to those reforms, however earnestly they might be
desired, and however essential they might be to the services
of the country, because he considered no time more inoppor-
tune for such discussion than the proposition for a supple-
mentary vote, such as that which he was now about to
propose. In bringing forward this'estimate, it was not his
wish to cast any imputation on the Board of Admiralty, or
the gentlemen who had preceded the present Government
in that office. When they adopted the estimates of the
late Government, they did so in no party or unworthy
spirit, believing them to be amply sufficient, and, unless
circumstances had considerably changed, they would not
have changed that opinion. In bringing these estimates
before the house, he admitted the right of the house, gene-
rally speaking, to an explanation as to the objects to which
it was intended to apply them. On the other hand, if he
entered into details, which might be desirable on an esti-
mate at the commencement of the financial year, he might
be led into a discussion extremely inconvenient, and must
therefore decline doing so. He would begin with the ex-
pression of his most earnest desire, in which honourable
gentlemen opposite would all share, for the maintenance
of perfect peace in Europe and throughout the world
(Hear, hoar.) He brought forward these estimates
so completely independent of any one particular
power or particular nation, that he would not be led
into the naval estimates of any one country, or refer
to any country that might be supposed to be affected by
them. (Hear, hear.) He brought them forward in the
spirit and in the earnest hope of universal peace. The two
supplementary estimates which he had now to submit to
the committee were, first, 113,0001., for 5,000 additional
seamen and 1,500 marines; and secondly, 100,0001. for the
necessary expenses of steam machinery for naval purposes.
On looking back to the cost of our steam machinery, it was
impossible to deny that enormous grants had been made
under that head. Let the committee remember the cir-
cumstances under which these sums were granted from year
to year. In the first place, the Government were called
upon to establish a paddle-wheel fleet, and now they were
obliged to provide a screw fleet. It would be found, how-
ever, by any honourable member who took the trouble to
inquire into the matter, that not only in the Govern-
ment establishments, but in every private dockyard,
enormous expenses had been incurred, which could
not possibly be avoided, because it was only by such
an expenditure that the efficiency cf the different kinds
of steam vessels could be ascertained. He was sure
that it would not be contended that, when the paddle-
wheel fleet had been built, and it was discovered that a
screw fleet would answer better, we ought to have gone to
no further expense. He believed thil the expense which
had been incurrred was not to be attributed to wilful ex-
travagance, as had been asserted, or to the love of change
on the part of the Admiralty, but to the new inventions
which were perpetually forced upon their notice; and which
imposed upon the Admiralty the necessity of making ex-

periments. It had been his good fortune during the re-
cess, to enjoy a trip to the Mediterranean, where he saw
the evolutions of the Mediterranean fleet, under the com-
mand of Admiral Dundas; and it was impossible for any
one not to perceive, when sailing vessels were compared
with screw steamers, that it was absolutely necessary, un-
less some new mechanical power were discovered, that
screw steamers should be the future of our navy as well as
of our mercantile marine. The paddle-wheel was not only
exposed to the fire of the enemy, but took up so much space
as to interfere with the guns which might be brought to
bear upon an adversary's vessel, and consequently, hence-
forth, we must recognise the combined power of the screw
and sail as the future of our navy. In order that the com-
mittee might have some notion of the comparative expense
of screw steamers and sailing vessels, a paper had
been drawn up, which he would read to the house.
The comparison was drawn between a ninety-gun
sailing vessel and a ninety-gun screw steamer of 500-
horse power, The first cost of the sailing vessel was
108,0001., while the cost of the screw was 151,0001., and
the annual expense of the sailing vessel was 44,3501. while
the screw steamer cost annually 51,6781. In the annual
expense alone, therefore; without saying anything of first
cost, the screw steamer exceeded the sailing vessel by 20
per cent. The hon. gentleman opposite said we must have
retrenchment in our dockyards. He thought it would bo
found that the present Government would not be remiss in
that particular in future, and that as regarded the past,
they had not been insensible to the necessity for making
proper reductions ; but, as he had said before, this was not
the time to discuss these matters. All that he wished
the house to be aware of was, that they must look
forward to an expensive future, unless they wished the
British navy to be inferior to those of other countries.
He now came to the question of the number of men.
The Government proposed to ask for 5,000 additional
seamen, and 1,500 marines for four calendar months ;
but in order to make the sum which would be required
as small as possible, the Government would assume
that for the first two months only half the num-
ber of seamen and marines would be raised. At the
same time, he was happy to state that the rumours which
were circulated of the difficulty of getting men to join
her Majesty's ships were highly exaggerated, though the
house must not disguise from itself that at present the Bri-
tish sailor was the most conspicuous article in the market.
Tho Government had not only to meet the competition of
the mercantile marine and the attractions of the gold re-
gions, but of every other navy in the world, and therefore
it was absolutely incumbent upon us to do everything that
would promote his comfort, and tempt him to remain in
the naval service. His right hon. friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer observed, on Friday last, that the seaman
was now often turned adrift just when his services became
most useful ; and in alluding to a committee which had
been engaged in considering this subject, and which had
collected much valuable information, he expressed a hope
that this committee would suggest certain reforms. He
(Mr. Stafford), however, wished to say that not one of these
5,000 additional men would be asked to join the ships of her
Majesty under any other restriction or condition than those
which were now in force. The honourable and gallant
admiral opposite (Sir G. Pechell) knew that nothing was
more distasteful to the seamen of the royal navy than to be
transferred from one ship to another. Besides, it was neces-
sary to consult not only the comforts of sailors, but their
feelings and fancies. They were a most curious body of
men, and if it once got noised abroad at Portsmouth or
Plymouth that any change in the present regulations was
contemplated, he believed that the Government would not
get 100 men in six months to join the service. With re-
gard to the fleet which the Admiralty proposed to raise,
and which he trusted the house would enable it to raise
without delay, they intended that it should be stationed in
the Channel, cruising, of course, occasionally up and down
for exercise. At the Nore they proposed to place three
frigates and five steamers ; at Plymouth, four sail-of-the-
line and, five steamers ; and at Portsmouth, five sail-of-the-
line; two frigates, and six large steamers. Considering the
exposed nature of the coast, and not forgettinhf Osborne and
the hopes and loyal sympathies which often centred there,:
ho thought this would not be loOked'upoh-its too largo
force for the defence of our own shores, At present. the'
Admiralty had not exceeded the number of men' voted,
which was about half a dozen above
.hose,, actually. in, the
naval service. So far, therefore, thornvernment had kept
itself strictly within the limits prMOribed, bitt,;groY•felt
that the time had come when the Channel defences must'
be placed in an efficient conditions, and :in doing _this the
Government did it with a fervent prayer for peace, the sin-
cerity of which was evidenced by tbe conduct, of , England
ever since the last shot was fired at Waterloo.. , (Hear,
hear.) The Government did not desire to interfere with
the internal policy of any country, but they wished that
the poorest of the Queen's subjects in the most distant
quarters of the globe should feel that the British flag was
his security and his safety. They felt that we ought to
have a fleet to protect those merchant vessels, which, what-
ever might be said of their superior sailing qualities and
the derision with which they looked down upon men-of-
war, were constantly applying to the Admiralty for
security to the British flag. Lastly, he asked the house
for this additional force in order to prevent any hostile
foot from treading on these shores, or, if such an event
should happen, to insure that the contest should be short
and decisive. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving
an addition of 5,000 seamen and 1,500 marines to the naval
forces of her Majesty.
Mr. HUME had always declared his objections to the
building of more ships than we could employ; and now it
was discovered, after laying out millions of money upon
war steamers, that they would not answer the purpose,
and therefore a new fleet of screw steamers was necessary.
That ought to show us the folly of which we had been
guilty for so many years of keeping up such enormous
establishments. We had been throwing away two
millions yearly upon our dockyards, and he really
thought that it might be a question whether we ought
not to build our ships by contract. He himself should be
disposed to object to all additional votes for the navy
until all the recommendations of the committee upstairs
had been adopted, until our ships had been brought home
from foreign stations, where they were only doing mis-
chief, and until all useless officers had been placed on a
retired list. We continued to keep up the number of 150
admirals, although we did not employ 20 of them. He did
not know whether it would be of much use, but he pro-
tested against the vote altogether.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the question before
the committee related to the raising of 5,000 additional
seamen and 1,500 marines. That question had no connec-
tion with those to which the bon. member for Montrose
had referred, such as the expenditure in the dock-yards
and the age of the admirals. He conceived that these
topics might be fitly discussed when the naval estimates
came under consideration, and then it would be for the
members of the late and of the present Government
to state their views upon these subjects. But this
was a proposal to raise 5,000 more sailors and 1,500
more marines, and he must say that such a proposal had
his warm assent. (Hear, hear.) He believed that it was
right and necessary to provide a sufficient defence for
this islana, which was the citadel of a vast empire, and he
was very glad that her Majesty's Government, having been
persuaded that such a force was necessary, had not shrunk
from proposing it. He believed that so far from its being
an upopular vote, the nation would gladly learn that it had
been carried, and he for one gave it his cordial assent.
(Hear.) _
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said, that on many occasions he had
opposed any addition to our naval forces, but in deference
to public opinion he should offer no opposition to this vote.
He trusted, however, that the people would now be satisfied
that the defences of the country were placed on a perfectly
secure footing, and that no further expense would be in-
curred. He suggested that captains of vessels should not
have the power of inflicting corporal puuishin ent without a
court-martial, and that savings banks should be established
in the navy as well as in the army.
Sir G. PECHELL remarked that no one doubted the ne-
cessity of strengthening our defences ; but the hon. gentle-
man the Secretary of the Admiralty had. not told the
house what had been done with the money which had
been already voted. He believed that at no period of the
history of the navy had it been in better condition than at
present. The Government had asked for 5,000 men, but
the obtaining of those men would very much depend on
the course which the Government might pursue. He be-
believed that the sailors were very much dissatisfied at
present on account of the stoppage of grog, and that was a
very delicate question when sailors were concerned.
Proper steps should be taken to regulate promotion among
them, and they should be given to understand that their
position should not be made worse than that. of any other
service in the world.

Mr. STAFFORD said that 38,000/. had certainly been
voted on a late occasion ; but at the same time an under-
standing was given that it should be maintained for the
purpose of a naval reserve. It had not, therefore, been
used. at all, nor was it the intention of the present board to
avail themselves of it.

In reply to Sir G. PECHELL,
Mr. STAFFORD said that these 5,000 men now asked
for were to have their choice of their ship, and when they
had chosen it were not to be removed from it.
Mr. SCOBELL congratulated the house and the country
that at last they were about to take the right means for
our national defence, and he had always held that they had
reason to complain, when they were discussing the ques-
tion of defences last .year, that the militia force was put in
advance of recruiting the navy, and using those natural
means for the safety of the country which Providence had
given us. He was glad the motion before the house seemed
to be cordially accepted on all sides. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KUNTZ rose to call the attention of the house to a
circumstance ho had heard that morning with respect to
the ordnance. He understood that her Majesty's Ministry
were going to increase the artillery. [lt was here suggested
to the honourable member that the appropriate time for
the consideration of this question had not yet arrived,
whereupon he desisted.]
The motion was then agreed to.
The next vote was 100,0001. for the necessary expenses
of steam machinery for naval purposes during the year
ending sth April,•lBs3.
Mr. STAFFORD explained that the number of men at
present employed, with the additional 5,000 demanded,
would man the fleet and leave a reserve.
Mr. MACGREGOR was of opinion that a thorough re-
form should be introduced into our naval dockyards, and al-
though he acquitted the Admiralty of blame, he was con-
vinced that the people looked with suspicion on the changes
which were ever taking place. He thought that the pre-
sent strength of our naval force, if it were well managed,
was greater than that of the whole of Europe, and that
the proposed increase was therefore unnecessary.
Captain DIINCOMBE stated that the vote was required
for machinery to complete the vessels now in existence,
and that two-thirds of the sum demanded would be spent
amongst the constituents of the hon. gentleman. (Laughter. )
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT would say that the unani-
mous vote of the house proved the sense of the country on
this matter ; and that however determined the people of
England might be that their affairs should be managed
with economy, they were prepared to make any sacrifice
in order to put this country, according to the opinions of
r
the Government, in a perfect state of defence. (H ea ,
hear.)

The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was for 73,9711. to defray the charge of
wages which shall come in course of payment in the four
calendar months ending March 31, 1853, for 700 additional
royal marines to be employed on shore, and for the cloth-

ing and necessaries of the same.
Mr. SCOBELL suggested that it would be worth while
in the Admiralty to allow three or four of our greatest
shipbuilders to build some of the first-class frigates re-
quired, merely giving them the tonnage, and permitting
them to build after their own fashion; for we had certainly
not yet arrived at tho perfection of shipbuilding, and our
vessels were far less swift and had less room than the French

vessels.
The vote was then agreed to.
The vote of 37,9291. for victualling stores for 5,000 addi-
tional seamen and 800 royal marines, for four calendar
months, was next put and agreed to.

ORISNANCE ESTIMATES.
Colonel DUNNE, in moving for these estimates, said
that amongst the defences of the country none was more
important than the artillery, an increase in which was now

410
asked. The proposition of the Government was,hsroo of
most modest—they would only move for an sciktt thr
2,000 men and 1,000 horses. He might mention Tollit•
only opportunities which they had for drilling the-nit*
tillery in field practice were in Woolwich and in
and that these being found inefficient, they pi.' or 06
addition of 1,000 horses. The cost of maintai
and horses for three months would be about 70,8:Pf:i itot
next vote was for ammunition 2,700/., and the t 10001;
was for the purchase of new heavy iron ordnaloe,, to Dr
making the total sum demanded for this branch °-
vice 92,6581. ceroonafil
Mr. MUNTZ complained that the practice' •v-- id -
the artillery at Woolwich was perfectly useless, tfloio6
right angles with the Thames, so that considerable tl
the practice took place, lest the shots should °6,0113
shipping in the river. He had heard that 60,01"'' ~I,lll°
be required for the purchase of ground which vg
available for practice, but he thought this sum w°
well
Col. D expended.
UNNE fully concurred in the statementl3 in
...ow(
the hon. gentleman, and intimated that the Gov't 03"
had already entered into negotiations for the pure'
some land at Shoeburyness as a practice ground. 00,
j
Mr. HUME observed that it Wag a great reflec ta'Lolo
former Governments that such a state of things
to
have continued so long without and endeavour
the defect. The house had now to thank the honopf;
man Mr. Muntz for having brought the matter foroci
It was disgraceful to the authorities that such aly toF
things should exist, and that public money sh°T.,
recklessley squandered. They talked of enjoying te"2,101
ings of peace, but they were called upon t° PAY'
expenses incidental to a war. mos° tito
Mr. WILLIAMS saw no reason for an -ale- t.
artillery, as they were 2,000 stronger than they A'S
for the
HUME last 15 years. .0
Mr. inquired hew it was that so large -
101. was named in the estimate for bounty.
...„0
Col. DUNNE replied that the actual b°""%',Fy
amounted to Si. 15s. 6d.-31. was travelling exile
there were other charges included in the 10/• t
a
Ott!,
Sir. J. F. SMITH expressed his opinion
tillery arm of the service ought to be maintained
of the greatest possible strength and efficieneY•
Captain SCOBELL said that at present the stre for'
artillery amounted to about 15,000 men. It T,t
ll`gto
which, above all others, he believed, they °ll,l' its p
in an effective state ; but he was of opinion th°, to I
sent strength was sufficient. He would be willinv 'Ai
the horses and ammunition asked for, but not ell r
Colonel DUNNE observed that the artilleryoo
at present 12,000 men. °l'6 ,t
Captain PECIIELL begged to suggest that 00
guns in store should be either used or sold. of , 46
The vote was then agreed to : as was also a vote of 2,', tr
for providing forage for 1,000 horses, and "te °
for additional labour in making up ammunition j
A sum not exceeding 14,0001. was proposed toffee
for defraying the expenses of purchasing iron or {,
pr
rectles . b ing (
Captain PECHELL objected to this sum as
sive.
In rel

ly to an observation of Mr. HUME, ,al'
Sir F. SMITH observed that all the log"„ir t.
troy d
the service were now armed with 10-inch guns- v 4,1 ofi
cently 8-inch guns had been used, but all fat 1'
were of opinion that the larger guns were "I
serviceable.
The vote was then agreed to.
. NATIONAL GALLERY. R sai`%4o
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ-,TRi
will take this opportunity of correcting an irePres-i°,
regard to the next vote which has been erroneoct;',
ted by the honourable member for 3fontrose•
ices
vote for a sum of considerable amount, netm
0111
150,0001., for building a National Gallery. I e'
to the house the circuraitancess under which her i,'
Government propose dila vote.l There is no doubt telt: stn
time is ninv come .:when we =rust study more the
vlo
education of the people of this Country,' nos 1,4
bring the influences' of `science and art to hear 14" r
lduction more than they have prevailed until the eF,
time. (Hear.) A great revolution had taken rin 1'
ar
those circumstances which gave superiority
ereito
factures. (Hear.) Hitherto this country has sv
very great supremacy by its command over the re
its
real. But daily the raw material becomes more eci .s ,
in price from the new system of locomotion. It 101
OlX°'
f our I
possible any longer to sustain the supremacy °- v)f 1
factures by merely having the supreme comnialla_:,°g'
dto
raw material, and the intellectual element is beC(
le•
of the most important elements of competVon. • E
•
hear.) This was felt very much during the Greaciill
tion, and I believe I may say it was the result w.
arrived at by those who on that occasion oorcis 0(r
impartiality the office of examining the produethfls o
countries. They arrived at this result, which it t
necessary at that time ostentatiously to ann°ullet:' 0 ft:o
we wished to maintain our superiority in
the
duction, we must remember that the intellectual et ,f,14,;
must be more studied and cultivated than her% aifcore(Hear, hear, hear.) It was found that in many co ary
there was a superiority in science, and that from so
agencies there was a power of competition with •„ii
te
had only a superior power over the raw Inc 7,1
support our industry, which showed that th6eal
had arrived when we must consider about end /04,
the means of maintaining our superiority. aleft,
Now, sir, in all the countries of Europe this great "
."oe
long been recognised. There is not a town of allY,ueclel,
in which there is not a school, in which the in' Yi!A
Pr or
science and art is not brought to bear upon in°st,h
tions, and there is not a capital in Europe in W"-.4fier Iji
is not an industrial university. (Hear.) Now, to fi
been no deficiency of means or of feeling in this coi.ast
many- years. It is a very curious fact that, althoug',:ret
not succeeded in bringing to bear the influence 0,1;r1"
science upon manufacturing skill with any effect/ "la ;,1
count the number of institutions which are devoted
,4
great metropolis to the cultivation of art and scieLlef‘i
the amount of money that is expended for mid
them, by voluntary contributions, we shall ware
they exhibit a sum of not fewer than one bleeps ci
number, which are maintained at an anima' eit.fa
about 160,0001. The nation also contributes t.utir
nearly 100,0001. in support of considerable ins t'
such as the British Museum and the National 011;
which, added together, make up a sum of about a 'jib 71
of a million annually expended for the very plirPe_rsfe
be
unfortunately have never been effected. (-ntun,''' jaw
The question has naturally arisen why, with stic'seies
tions of the wish of the people to cultivate art an' 0
shown and proved by their readiness to expend 9413te0d
such a large sum of money, still any systematical
to bring to bear the influence of science and ofP'S
manufacturing industry has never been cane, .d r;;0, 1::14
The result of the experience of the Great Extu°7„,.."e
,31 „r
the result of what has taken place in other coneT,„bil°'sl
a conviction entertained not only by many Men e , nO,
phic mind, but also by many men of practical!'"scer"o.,
the time hid come when it was necessary tho,,cieece,iit
great effort should be made, and that the in'Arolg'l9
science and art upon productions should be of iv
more systematically to bear. The attention le t,tei
Royal Commissioners was attracted to the
and here permit me to observe how deeply ifigllllo
the people of this country are to his Rays,' 007,if
Prince Albert for his unceasing solicitude for the Pro,'
of art in all its branches. (Hear, hear.) The itc:„Y„ or ;0,0
missioners found themselves, after a terminate
Great Exhibition, in the possession of a surplus
than 150,0001. ; besides that they had as a c°ll`'.A vivo(
from the exhibitors from foreign states what serv°3l,oo,,
foundation of an extraordinary museum, the],ejoil,a
which is now not less than 9,0001. The CO of 1;0
therefore, being more conscious than any other hedge;"
in this country of our great deficiency in thelert P 0
and of the absolute necessity of making some e_.,"°;.,j,
to consider whether the opportunity had not arrin ttleA
they might probably give some great impulse „„ ° f
oun
tional feeling, and propose to lay the f datie-• in to
complete industrial education of which we 32.-4,
They had to consider what was the reason tac''',isiftto
country, where we should havg supposed there °:;r4
many facilities for developing such an education),,i,fac',,d
e
hitherto been so unsuccessful and without any se' due
results in that respect. And they found, afbei tf' eta
sideration, that it was to be attributed mainly.e-te
causes—to want of system, and to want of spa "t he
hear)—and I think it may be really said that to hay i~
cause) the first ought to be attributed. W,. ..„,eotref
number of institutions scattered over this great
in none of which can the objects of those instii,'-otisjj
sufficiently or satisfactorily developed from Nvan"..,frectc
And while from this cause they cannot fulfil se' ing
the object for which they were instituted, theiriu%srP,o
tered in different positions prevents any uniteu„nighlo'
by which their concentrate& efforts might be ilitatif
bear. If you examine some of the principal ins.," vte°
both those founded by individuals and those Ferri/ foil-t 4
the nation, you will find always one complaint- I-thatelo,
to the Royal Society, for example, you will fin
many years there has been a constant appeal to gliiice"i
more accommodation, and more room for the fto tot
the objects which they have in view. If of
Royal Academy, you will find that during icl-nts,
summer months, a time most favourable to stuue,„ropo
schools are obliged to be closed on account of thecii Doti pr
tions for the annual exhibitions. (Hear.) I ntaisli
mind honourable gentlemen of the state of the P.L't-
seum at this moment. I had the honour to-day Own att '
ing at and receiving a deputation, and that depute' wool oi
before us facts which are probably notorious t°,,,,ee,,ci
able gentlemen in this house, though perhaps thefthe Jl
ea much impressed with them as we were but )311
t ,l
is, that, at this moment, we have not room in the or
Museum, which is in fact a collection of wort
,700, ie
subjects, for one single branch of literature or
.„,-sc,itesai:b
art. (Hear, hear.) The library of the British AL 11
now increasing at the rate of 16,000 volumes a 37; no
in less than 30 years the collection, which qt ie slot
amounts to 500,000 volumes, will be doubled.lry tit
lutely necessary that we should find accomrao iibra-ge
that for if we once cease to increase the nations.' be is y
links will be wanting in the chain which will nev,.errt
plied. (Hear, hear.) We have collections °I is olly
science at this moment stowed in cellars, and sch_„„°°aer
sign are obliged to meet in different places andl"'",oa
ferent roofs. If you go to the National Galled''4o.,hl°'ll'
find the collection of pictures, which is not sonti
might be, because there is no proper receptacle for `::1 of 1 c.t
tions absolutely stowed in different buildings, instc7ololl'3
ing under the same roof, and forming a complete sellito p ffpo
which, by affording means of tracing the different se
nt in of
different ages, might supply a test of our advancone:siblasn, t
present age. The Royal Commissioners, being en,r,- e eneo
all this, thought that the time had come whenerb
must be made to concentrate all these scattere'„„
for the great object of industrial education. (Ilea tetc'er
They considered that they should establish one sYeO
arrangement, and for this purpose that they Or of s';`,'",
come the great deficiency arising frOm the wan,,l, IslB
cient space. With this view they have pern''"„sicia°_,o
spot I think eminently suited for the object, a Cc Cri" of
portion of land very near that spot where the 1,01 4
Palace originally rose. They have expended
,1,11,e,t,1i0ark.,-
money which remained as a surplus of the contr!lysty's 'oet
the Exhibition, and they appealed to her gairohae,i,,et
vernment whether they would recommend to -L to 1.0
that the State should contribute an equal s,Ouse vfoA
which they thus expended for this object. Then° obtocle
recollect that this was the last opportunity for our tte
that, the want of which has hitherto raade
tempts for bringing art and science to pvea`the wa:es
education of the people nugatory,—nani_e,,q,,tgeja °`;pot
of space. Another opportunity may e°l'.,;ng th'
in this 'rapidly-increasing city for obt!iieue,it of _4ll
where there is so large a space for the develoyont,ps
agree to contribute an equal sum, making thg o
we should then be in possession of a space purposes we have in view. If the House ofeUtheroo.sv,Orlielyt
would allow us to bring to bear the milieu ~,Ativ
science and art through all their &nag And