The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-08 00:00:00

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that no ono except military or naval ofliecrs could form
an opinion on a matter of this kind. 1113 0"Nil beln f Wee
that the punishment was unnecessary, erel that if ver
inflicted it would arise from the incompetency of the
offiters in command as Much as from the depravity or
insubordination of the men. It had been asserted that
the-punishment was often necessary in an army on the
march; but it ought to be recolketed that the militia
Would not be engaged in any foreign war, and would not
be exposed to those temptadons and to :hose atrocious
acts which had occurred in our array in the Peninsula.
The militia was altogether a home force, and would be
formed. of men of a higher and more respectable cha•
teeter than the soldiers of the army of former times.
lie felt eortain that the house would see that that which
had been thought eectesary in the Militia Act of 1802,
*was not necessary in a Militia Aet fur 1852. It often
happened that men of an irritable temper had the c')m-
Mand of a regiment, and he did not think it right that
Such men should have the power of punishing soldiers
by flogging for immortality or a :light neglect of duty.
The House might recollect the case of the soldier in the
Scotch Greys who was flogged in 1834. Since that.
time ho had had the happinees of the acquaintance of
that man.—( A leugh ) ile could tell IL.n. 'Members that
that men had written works which weetd last as long as
the English language itself, and had written a history of
his own life as grapnio as any narrative of Dsfoe.—
(lean) He WAS quite certain that if any case of
flogging should occur in the militia it would cawe a feel-
ing of disgust. He proposed his proviso with tee inten-
fiefs of asking the House to agree that the militia should
under no circumstances be liable to the punishment of
the lash. He might remirid the House that when the
number of lashes was reduced to fifty, the Duke of
Wellington stated that Ito hoped to live to see the
punishment of flagging in the army entirely abolished.
-(hear, hear.) He hop d that the House would take
the first step, and abolish it with respect to the 80,000
militia it was proposed to enrol. He had, therefore, to
move his proviso.
Colonel THOMPSON seconded the motion.
Mr. BERESFORD slid that he concurred with the
Hon. Member for Manchester in one observation, and
hoped that he himself should live to see corporal punish-
ment entirely done away with in the army. Ile did not
express that hope in consequence of anything that had
fallen from the Hon. Member. The House might recollect
that when he addressed the House on Tuesday last he
stated that during-the time he was in the army there
was no single duty he had to perform so painful to his
feelings, and he believed to those of his brother officer:,
51 that of ordering corporal punishment. Since then a
great change had been made, and corporal punishment in
the army had almost ceased. The proviso of the Hon.
Member, however, proposed to do away with the punish •
meat altogether in the militia, and would leave a military
force to be embodied without giving the powers which
had been always considered necessary for ensuring disci-
pline. He had that morning looked into some returns of
the amount of flogging in the English army during the
last year, and had found that only 197 punishments had
been inflicted in the who's) British army at home and
abroad. That army consisted of 148 regiments and
battalions, and the number of punishments daring one
year had been in the proportion of only three out of
4,000 men. That showed that a great alteration had
taken place in the discipline of the army, arising, no
doubt, partly from the more kindly and paternal
Spirit in which it had been commanded, and partly
'from a superior class of men who entered it. It, there-
fore, 80,000 militia were called out for 21 days,
they had no right to assume that the number
corporally punished would be greater than in the army,
and consequently that the number would not exceed four
or five case during the whole time they were out. There
efts exaggeration, therefore, in the agitation which had
peen got up against the use of the lash. It was some-
What remarkable that those who maintained that in no
case should there be a power of inflicting corporal
Punishment in the militia were the very persons who
openly told the House that the militia would consist of
the very scum of society.—(Cheers.) If the militia were
' exempted from the provisions of the Mutiny Act with
regard to flogging, the army would feel aggrieved, and
the House having pasted the Militia Bill, there would be
cue law for the army and another for the militia, if the
present proviso were agreed to.
Mr. BRIGHT said the Hon. and Gallant Member had
,Mistaken the nature of the proviso. It did not go the
length of exempting the militia from the terms of the
Mutiny Act, except with regard to flagging.
Mr. BERESFORD contended that if the provision
with respect to punishment were struck out of the Mutiny
Act, it would no longer remain the Mutiny Act,—(Hear,
ear.) The lion. Member had stated soldiers were
liable to be punished with the lash for immorality and
!legleet of duty. The lash of late years had been only
iteflieted for very serious offences. The Hon. Member
.(!r Manchester had stated that punishments were in-
!hated on men for no fault of theirs, but because of the
irascibility of their officers. That was not the case, for
lt court-martial composed of officers sworn to do justice
between the Sovereign and the criminal, should first de-
' Blare that criminal guilty.—(flcar, hear.) The case of
Z7Ahites of the 7th Hussars, had been referred to, and he
been pronounced a " murdered man" by the Hon.
• "neer. He regretted that the Hot. Gentleman had
not examined into the case before he used the expression.
iettr, hear.) White had been guilty of a most violent
• breach of discipline. He struck a non-commissioned
44tcer with a.poker, and with such violence as nearly to
cause his death.—(Hear, hear.) He was tried by a dis-
trict court. martial, in compliance with the directions of
t
Horse Guards, composed of thirteen officers drawn
from several localities, and sentenced to receive 150
!tithe& The punishment was inflicted, after which ho
Was taken to the hospital, where he remained from the
lath
Juno to the 4th or sth July. He even improved
1.10 much as to have left the Hospital, but he suddenly
took ill and died. On the circumstance being re-
Ported. at the Horse Guards, two surgeons were sent
"ewn to assist in the inquiry as to the cause of death,
It_ ad these gentlemen declare on their professional repu-
tation that the man had not died of the corporal punish-
.l,%tit inflicted on him, but an inherent disease.—(Hear.)
He believed that even in the case of a militia, or of any
ese where men were embodied and arms placed in
their hands, it was necessary to reserve their punish-
ment ; :but it did not follow that it would be used ex-
cept in cases of absolute necessity.—(flear, hear.) He
did not think the Hon. Gentleman had made out a case
to induce
them to abolish this punishment, and ho
therefore hoped the Committee would not accept the
Mr. T. APCULLAGII referred to the Irish constabu-
'arY--as loyal and gallant a body of men as could be
found—and considered that as they were exempted from
such degrading punishment, so also should their militia.
htrLENNARD thought the time had arrived when
this degrading punishment should be removed, both as
regarded the army and navy.—(Hear, hear.) • As a
matter of policy it should not be enforced at present,
When they were seeking the enrolment of men by means
of voluntary enlistment, otherwise, all men of self-respect
. would bo deterred from volunteering.—(Hear.)
Captain BOLDER() could not admit the justice of the
comparison as between the Irish police and the militia.—
(llear, hear.) If soldiers could be pieced on the same
footing as police, then indeed they might abolish flog-
ging. But the soldier, for a shilling a day, was not—
either in point of morality, conduct, or education—what
the policeman at 18s a week was.—(Hear, hear.) Give
the soldier 3s. a day, and then they could abolish flog-
ging. He rejoiced that for five successive sessions he
united with Hon. Gentlemen who brought the whole
question of corporal punishment before the House, with
a view to its abolition or great mitigation.—(Lican) Ho
rejoiced equally when the mandate of that great man,
the . Commander-in-Chief, reduced the punishment,
which
termedmi reedouetir''n the Hon. Member for Manchester
Gentleman caodmvrtso.caetilse."
punishment.'Since that period no Hon.
the further mitigation or abolition
of the
the public given up Thespeaking had given up writing, and
question was regarded asinsgc about it; and, in fact, the
the Lion. Gentleman the Member until now revived by
edrisfeohraMr.raenchester. The
militia had the same 'duties to
regu-
lars. Ought the latter to be subjected _as the 0
ted to corporal
exempted? Would
punishments and the former to u
that be just?—Ulcer, hear.) The
Yeomanry were vo-
lunteer corps, and yet were aobject to this punishment
under the Mutiny Act. He knew a member of is yeo-
manry corps whe
esa.s
.C3l3l,i.neuted; so of the volunteer
sentenced to the punish-
ment, though it
corps when embodied ti
_saw yesterday the Horse
Guards—that gallant body of met among whom
• ought they to be subject crime
was almost unknown; to the
• punishment, and the militia exempted, whom it had
been said would be a set of scamps and vagabonds?—
(Loud Cries of "Hear.") There was no reason why we
should now re-agitate the general questton • and ho hoped
the House would settle it by a decisive division.
" Mr. ROEBUCK was astonished at the speech of the
Gallant Gentleman.
don't care if you are.
Captain BOLDERO—I
e Mr. ROEBUCK—The boldness of that declaration
: uoes not remove my ustoniehment, The Gallant Gen-
tlegaan has been for years advocating
the abolition of
• 11
• °Rging in the army.
Captain BOLDERO—I ssaidab abolition or mitigation.
--(Load cheers.) eiiter.) What
Mr. ROEBUCK—Mitigation!—(Lau„
that the
dogs,,e that mean?—(Load laughter.) It means
untsh-
"ung is to be retained, and the infliction of the p
then
toent made as unfrequent as possible. FlOgging,•'
- Was to be retained, and to be inflicted on the militia,
NO, to be invited -0 were voluntarily to enlist! The Gal-
last Gentleman had been labouring to exempt the reg
tar troops from the punishment, and not having sac-
* seeded, sought-to subject the militia to it. Ile (Mr. itleci
buck) contended that the militia were not a force whit:
"ClUired Bach a punishment at all. Were honest and
respectable, men wanted-in the force? If so, ought they
t be liable 'to the degradation of flogging?—(Hear.)
((,)
they
any bat the rabble and refuse he expected—if
. :3Y were to be liable to the punishment?—(hear, hear.)
„
. he voluntary enlistment would not succeed on such a
,Iph's_tem, and the ballot would never be endured.
ii°
f People would not bear such a punishment; and
Y attempt to maintain the militia by such means
o brute force would fail. The punishment of
the stri
Pes—that infernal punishtment.—(A. laugh, occa-
sioned by the peculiar manner and tone of the Hon.
entlenazn.) Well, I realty am surprised— (Renewed
)—I am surprised that in an assembly of English
gentle a laugh and a sneer should be elicited by an
etdusion to the punishment of stripes, and that the Right
tton. Secretary of War should set the example.
I?tr- BERESFORD—I beg the Learned Member's
Pardon.
• Mie,ROEBUCK —I beg the Right Hon. Gentleman's
~pardon, I believe it was the Right lion. Gentleman
the Clerk of the Ordnance, who sits next him.
Colonel DUNNE—I beg to say I laughed, but not at
the punishment of stripes.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—OnIy at the mention of it, I sup-
. ‘Prise•—(ob.) I am surprised that in a assembly of
.g_entlemen this should be matter for laughter.--(Oh, oh.)
Isettined m what 11° bad
a um wont on to VP%