The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-28 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

The Duke of ARGYLL presented a petition praying
for an abolition of tests in the Scotch universities; also
a petition from the borough of Lambeth in favour of
the retention of tho Crystal Palace. The Noble Duke
stated that in the prayer of the latter petition ho en-
tirely concurred,

The Earl of lIARROWBY prese;itEd a petition from
Skipton, in Yorkshire.! in favour of the retention of the
Crystal Palace.
DRAINAGE (IRELAND).
The Earl of ROSSE gave notice that he would on
Monday next move tor a Select Committee to icqui!e
into the operation of the Acts relating to drainage in
Ireland, as administered by the Board of Works.
Their Lordship then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 27.
ELECTIVE FRANCHISE.
(Continued from our Fourth E
Mr. BRIGHT protested against the argument of the
Noble Lord the Member for Colchester, that in bring-
ing forward discussions of this nature they were
obstructing the progress of public business, and delaying
the dissolution of Parliament. He believed that no Govern-
ment business could have come on to-night, even suppos-
ing the motion of the Hon. Member for East Surrey had
been withdrawn. The Noble Lord called this a hack-
neyed subject, but every great question which had been
carried had been treated by Hon. Members opposite as
hackneyed. He considered the question to be of im-
portance with reference to the cowing general election,
when the country would have to decide upon protec,',ion.
He believed that the general feeling in favour of free
trade, in boroughs of any population, was extending to
county constituencies and he had heard that Hereford
and Dorset were likely to elect free-trade candidates.
If the constituencies of counties contain •d the same pro-
portion of population as boroughs did there would no
longer be the discrepancy which exited in public
opinion with regard to the question of protection. In the
West Riding there were 30,000 voters in a population of
sou,ooo, and so long as such an anomaly existed there
would be peril to the Government, the constitution, aye,
and to the very institutions of the country. The great
constituencies were almost unanimous against the Mi-
litia Bill ; and upon country gentlemen, who were first
frightened at French corn, and then at French men,
would rest the responsibility of the expense that militia
would entail. He hailed the present motion as a step
in the direction of that reform which the House had re-
solved to carry out.

Mr. PACKE deprecated the discussion of topics
which had no reference to the motion before the House.
_(Hear, hear.) With regard to one portion nt the
proposal he thought that although one day's polling
might be found sufficient in boroughs, and in cases
where the voters were within a circle of seven miles, it
would be inadequate for counties, to which voters some-
times had to be brought from all parts of the kingdom.
Mr. %VAKLEY asked, if purity was only to be found
in counties, why not give them the ballot? If people
were not to have a vote, they certainly ought not to be
forced to carry a musket. They were called upon to
defend their country, but were yet denied the privileges
of free men.

Mr. BUCK said that, in anticipation of the re
motion, he had caused inquiries to be made in the large
ey swamp
et
district he represented, and had found that th
creation of 101. householders would entir e proposedmp the
4,000 freeholdera He therefore opposed the motion.
Colonel SI3THORP was anxious to extend the fran-
chise es widely ait was conaissent with safety, and would
rather give a s'. franchise to many cities and borough*
than the 101. to others. Speaking generally, he Objected
to a 101. vote to a county, because it was likely to
swamp many important boroughs which now enjoyed
the franchise.—(Hear, hear.) •
Lord J. RUSALL—Sir, I cannot vote against the
present proposition on the ground stated by the Noble
Lord the Member for Colchester (Lord John Manners).
If the Government were to say they wish fur any parti-
cular Tuesday, in order to bring forward their measures,
and thus secure an early dissolution of Parliament, I do
not think any Member would interpose a motion on that
day. As the Government, however, have not only not
asked fer Tuesdays, but seem reluctantly to take the
Thursdays—(On, oh)—I cannot Buy I see any objection
to our now discussing a measure of public importance.
Then, sir, with regard to the nature of the question itself,
it appears to me to be a fair matter fur consideration in
this House what shall be the amount of the occupation
franchise for counties as we have settled that for towns.
The Reform Act contained a clause, introduced by Lord
Chandos, although it may originally have been suggested
by the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln, by which
the county franchise was put at 501. It was proposed
also that 81. should be the franchise for Ireland, but
that proposal was afterwards objected to by the
House of Lords, and the franchise was fixed at
12/.
Such is the law now in force. In the Bill which-
I
in-
troduced in the present year I proposed to reduce ht
-AV. franchise to 201. in English counties.
Sotha
appears to me consistent, not only with thepropositionstit
of different Hon. Members, but with measures sanc-
tioned by Parliament itself, that we should discuss a
measure professing to reduce the occupation franchise in
counties within this country. But I own it appears to
me, considering the vast importance of framing the re-
presentation aright, that Parliament should deal with
counties and boroughs as a whole, and not separately,
and that these franchises should not be altered separately
from time to time. And here I may say that I cannot
differ much from what I utalerstand to be the opinion of
the lion. and Learned Solicitor-General opposite (Sir F.
Kelly). I understand him to have said that he deems
it to be of the utmost importance that the question of
the commercial policy of the country should be set-
. tied, and that Perliament should not proceed to discuss
measures for the reform of the representation until this
question had received the judgment which now awaits
it. But I entirely differ trom him in the statement
that the country is now in a state of ruin
owing to those measures called free-trade measures. I
also differ from the Right lion. Gentleman the Secre-
tary for the Colonies iu thinking that the colonies are
ruined; and I differ from the lion. Member for Scar-
borough (Mr. G. F. Young) when he states that the
shipping interest is in a state of utter prostration. I
believe, on the contrary, that many of these measures
will be considered by the new Parliament and by the
new House of Commons, with the approbation of the
country, to have collectively and individlly tended to
promote the prosperity of the couniry, and that Parlia-
ment will consider it a duty to maintain and extend
those measures.—(Hear, hear, from the opposition.) I
think it desirable that that great question should rcceivo
a solution before we proceed seriously to consider the
state of the representation. I was glad to hear from the
Noble Lord the Member for Colchester, that the present
Government would be ready to coccur in any well-con •
nidered measure of reform is the rerf seuta ion; but I
hope I did not mi.undereatici him when he appeared to
me to say that this was a question very fairly open to
the 09114ideroti4u cf thil or au other karlianacat. Whew,

howtver, we procePd to settle the great quevtion or
commerciA po!icy, which it is so desir,,hlo shi.wd br s'A-
tied one W;.), or o,hvr, I trust tbstL N hie Lord
wdl be
disposA to ,tgr, e with nr:,, in the view I take of thi3

porraie question
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH..QUER—Sir.
the question to which tee Noble L .:d oppoti.e uedresetd
ssems to me io Cie mi,eppre:l, od, a 11 i iro, 5°
tar Sit, it relates to wra! Las taken it n 1 u y N:tle
the Member ;or C,,le'6esier. I co:quirk. Old e I under-
state) my Noble Friend to say that the Goveremeet were
prepared to concur in any measure for reform in this
House—
Lord J. RUSSELL—What T said was that I under-
stood the Noble Lord to say that the Gov, rnment would
concur in or take into their c eisideration a welecon-
entered measure for reform.—(oh, oh.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCEIEQUER—To
concur in and to take into c:)ris!th-ration tire two very
different thinge.—(Hear, hear ) Sit, I should be sorry
that any Government would be permitted to exist we)
were not prepared to consider a measure of such impor-
tance as affected the arratigernent and construction of
this Howie. I have so recently addressed this House on
the sute. ct of reform, that, cvi n if the sacred hour of the
evening was not at hand, I would hesitate to trespass
again upon its attention. But I ajn induced to do so new,
in order that it may not be considered I am desirous er
evading the giving of an opinion upon the question
before us, in consequence of the peculiar circumstances
of the present session of Parliament—(Hear, hear)."
I object to the measure proposed to be brought in by
the Hon. Member for Surrey for various reasons. I ob-
ject to it, in the first place, because it is partial in its
character. I entirely agree in opinion with the Noble
Lord the Member for London, when he said that lie°
representation of the community in this House should
be considered upon an extensive scale, and I am further
of opinion that these attempts made every eession to
after the constituencies of towns, and to readjust the
constituencies of counties, will be found to load to con'
elusions most unsatisfactory.—(Hear.) Sir, this islle
question which must be viewed on a much larger see"'
than that suggested by the Hots. Member for Surrey
But I have another objection to this measure. I have
often said in this House that it is my sincere convieti!!
in the construction of that memorable law, the Bell:111-
Bill of 1832, there was a very great deficiency. Tuet
deficiency was the want of consideration for the rige';
of the working classes to the franchise.—(Hear, heerT
And lam glad to hear the Noble Lord, the author ,
that same Reform Bill, acknowledge that after long
observation he has been induced to adopt thet
opinion—an opinion which he did not at one time CO11•
sider with such favour.—(Bear, hear.) Well, thee,
do not understand if that be admitted a great deficiency
in our system of representation, how this measure 6c)
frequently proposed by the Hon. Member for Surrey
,e,e'
meets the case.—(flear. hear.) Under our old systemhowever, we may choose to consider those arrangeulell-
-I mean the suffrages of freemen. No one can dell;
that the politica! rights of labour were acknowledg`
by our old constitution.—(Hear.) While we virtuellis'
destroyed those rights, the existing rights were pre';;
served; but the fountains which supplied the constilell;:.
encics were destroyed; and we virtually terminatedset"tre
political rights of labour which that class enjoyed. i'°oe
I do not went to maintain at this moment, that tbert.
were not strong reasons for interfering with the
jog arrangements, but I never heard any reason es:.
signed why a more satisfactory al rangement could 0,01,
be substituted in its stead. Sir, I trace much of the tree
satiitsction that prevails on this question, which eelleee4s
itself painfully felt in regard to the Reform Bill of leed.
—I truce it to that omission to which I have referee
Now, what is this remedy offered by those who arrogst:ee
„
to themselves the sole privilege of representing theol",
ing classes, and ot championing their rights? They I'4;
pose as a remedy a lurge-measure sniff oge, whic".
effect amounts to universal suffrage; and their remedy 1510
throw the whole power of the country into the bands 0f
mere class, instead of securing a constitution which give
~
to property itiese rights which it deserves to posses;
and to labour ell those rights it is entitled to enjoe
,
rights, the recogn;tion of which, both legal and poetics'
should be entoiced, and which I believe is one of 111°
main causes of the flourishing condition of this countree
and of the duration of order, both social and political!
(Ilsar, hear.) They, however, propose as a remerlYl
measule which is essentially cluss legislation, because if
would give political power to a class so ntunerous, se,.
asseuted to, would entirely chaege the constitution ef t'
country. Against such a charge lam opposed, becauel
I think it is one that would alter the constitution, end
would produce the most injurious effects upon thee,fro
tune and condition ot the country,—(Hear, hour.)
is no reason why en important question whether an in-
dustrial franchise may not be invented that would gi e
y
satislactiori to those who have a claim to be represents
in the legislation ot the country—that is no ressoli
we should not consider an important question e'c *his
character; and this is a principle which acknowte eleg
long before the Noble Lord acknowledged it, us deler'ibe
the grave consideration of any man responsible iorthis
Government of the country. But now I 1011, ise so
omission, which is now so painfully felt, and is mad g"
much the source of discontent—is it met by theenSeera- f.orre
proposed to be introduced by the Hon. el
Surrey ? On the contrary, while some persons leee
complaining that property is too much represent
o.f
our Constitution, what is the answer of the claituebte ,
labour made by the Hon. Member for Surrey o°Boll
school? Why it is that we will represent property e 00,
more. Sir, I cannot sanction legislation so earl",
and as I believe founded upon principles so vicietaid
say this on the part of myself and my colleagues• et out
so before in this House, and I repeat it DOW till' Pt
feelings upon the subject may not be misconceived cep
we do not associate an extension of the suffreg°l3jef we
sarily with the extension of democratic power' was
well
could see any measure brought forward that vv—if We
matured, and not conceived in political fasbi°ll rtisane
saw a sincere desire manifested to give deserving art with
the exercise of the suffrage in a manner consistent Oat
the maintenance of these institutions, the peesery
of which is cf as much interest to artisans es °eh
other class in the country, we would give 511 600.
proposition our dispassionate and kind considers
ber
But the motion of the Honourable ger° tee
for Surrey is not of that class, and until sect,
measure is brought forward which I think ulc,
the difficulties and exigencies of the case, and theistu
fore entitled to the consideration of Parliament, I 1e.1,,ae
take my stand on the settlement that exists; not ree,,,,
any superstitions reverence to it, but because I
stnposed to the system of, year after year, tampering "ef
the constituencies, which at length become a sourceeties,
political weakness and of national debility.-01
,e 0
hear.) It is the interest of all m
to uphold existiele
wish to maintain good government s
en and of all classes fiP,,
order, sinless they can bring forward a proposition a
.75#
general !Artie
f Gementl satisfaction all will acknowledge is Bards the suffrage that will tend to give
"3"lentterseasttisafancdtiioranPoarntadnet°7
only source of permanent • lion
an"
means we have ef directing our attention to lee° Aof
genera_ ID
upon subjects of
of the community, is that the q d
: ss an
d
tion the we
tioa of the franchise 3hould. be reined upon a eue-,abas
extensive I am not disposed to acknowledge eure
the measure of 1842 is open to all the objections
been urged against it. I have had the satisfaction
witnesaing the Noble Lord himself recegniso the sutio
fancy of that Act. There is no doubt the oulieePenos
which I have referred observable in it, but e meeeese
not as yet heard any practical or satisfectorl If
pointed tint by which that want could be supplied. go
proposition ot such a kind could be brought f"revveeed
which would meet the eifficultiee of the ceee I seeene
listen to it with most reapecoul attention. Let 110 spy .
suppose that on the part ot the Government there "se
bigotted adherence to obsolete forms. Her J~lujes
Ministers have only
good government of the
one ofjocto at heart, and that 'd tte
greatness of this country
country. They wish to see of
tee people increased.—(
franchise be only. sought
political power aad iiiu:rpeihrte,hlehdepauarrr.i)pdotslhe
If the
ftphnireoasibpneatr:igtie o.‘f.
c saillg
comprousisieg
for Surrey
such a change we must give our nditional sled t
of exciting political egitatione
ofre
ueco
h respect •e
the Hon. Member Opposition.l have too touch eats 00
ve
one ot this kind. I must, however, describe it tl° tee
essentially to describe his mo"
understand how,
unsatisfactory and not calculated to meet of
exigencies of the present state of affairs. I can eases
noyance and disturbance, and conduce to no satisfactory
if auccessful, it would lead to much
or permanent settlement of
must give it
my oppoeition—not because this is the le°'
.00
bPssion of Parliament, but I must meet it 111 Luc' 8-e0
manner I would meet it under other circumutaila-
the question. Therefore
namely, by my unqualified opposition.—(Hear.)
Sir B. HALL rose amidst loud cries of " Divesteer
He hoped that, notwithstanding the sanctity of the Jeesee,
which had been referred to, Hon. Members would 0.01.u.e,
him to occupy their attention for only a few mosnent be
(Hear, hear.) At the commencement of the eessiosl3,e9o,s
read in a paper that the Noble Lord at the head oyetesie
present Government bad declared that one of the tj
°bj° a
he had in view in taking office was that there shoe
no further reform in the representation of the Plea ee
He was, therefore, not at all surprised at the oPewlitiooserl
which the Government had given to the present In° WO
But what was the scheme which the Right Hell°l3r:str) sd
Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Excherieesaisei
had shadowed forth to them? Was it a reality, °„,,,r ofaiitt
it merely a miserable claptrap for the hustings?--(ee
hear.) Was the Right lion. Gentleman sineel to
making the statement which he know would go fort
the public? What were the words which the leto -
floe. Gentleman had so pointedly used with referenedafi'
the representation of the people:?—'' The greet e at-
ciency of the Act of 1832 was the want of proPe* tee e.
tention to the rights of the working classes." e‘Yeallyareel
House to collect from that statement that, w"reerwarreee
liement again assembled, Ministers would bring °ye Pee
a measure for the purpose of extending the ellifseralesosi" .1!
the working classes? '• Hear, hear," from the e/Pbees
tion.) Or was it to bo supposed that the Bight Bore
s ins
tlereau opposite, having veered round to the oPini°nnter"
reference to our commercial policy which wer° iseeeaser
tamed on that (the Opposition) side of the 'Thieg
thought this was a convenient opportunity of
forward some new claptrap in order to gain the
i°o3oo
voices of the electors? If the Right Hon. Gen sure
was sincere—.if he intended to bring forward Ille`ta seY
to give the franchise to the working classes, lot hi eve)
so at oece,—(Heer, hear, from the Opposition bele well
Let him say that, in refers rice to this question. re epi'
as with regard to rotes ion he had outgrown eefee he
Lions he eeterfained six months ago, and that we coo
throw overboard protection he would at onncedo of
forward as a Radical Reformer, as he was
ee. efestore,
yore.—(Laughter and cheers from the upy.so 1g
and cries of " Oh," from the Ministerial bentenebeentad
the Right Hcnourable Gentleman meant thole, forth,.
going to give the great franchise he had shadow. lei.or it,
he (Sir fcerja.min Halle
that the would be most thankful for
and would he very glad to find or
lienoureole Gentlemanhqd thri,,Ru vver the_, uyer
-hms In, had expressed to that House over and .60.
Or 141 "
again. The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked r eeops
min with gig franchise sfor

I

1,,
g

P,
,r 1
i"
;i

r
f

the time when the Reform Bill passed no alteration had
taken eLce in the franchise. Twenty years had elapsed
since the peasing of that &11. cid they wit; had the same
50/ franchise in counties, end the sa:x, 10/, fraectese in
towns. There had, therefore, been no alteration of or
tamp ring with th.• Trianon°. A ,ers,nge eropesition
had, however, been made to that House with reference to
the extensioa of tee franchise waieh had not hitherto
been noticed. He alluded t' the proposition made by
the Sdcrelary for the Home D ipirtm9nt with referseee
to the militia franchiae,--(Ctieers. and laughter on the
OPPOsi!ion side, and cries of " Oh!" from. the
.Ministerial
benches.) Hon. Gentlemen might well cry "
(Laughter.) That proposition was Made on a Friday
evening, and so anxious was the Right lion. Gentleman
(Mr. Walpole) that the Noble Lent (Lord J. Russell)
should hear it, that he (Sir B. Hall) was informed that
the Right lion. Gentleman actaaily called the Noble
Lord back into the Rouse that he might hear the pro-
Posed alteration.—(Haar, hear, and a laugh.) The
01 Noble Lord did co 3 back, and was certainty astounded
to.hear the proposition that people of the ci-iss inr
Nosy,
should be placed upon the electoral list. ,
what:was the class of persons which the Government hadw
Proposed to enfranchise, and what was the class of per-
sons whom his Hon. Friend ( \lr. King) proposeds to
Place upon the electoral list? He would tike the
thebeo Re- ccease
o of
two persons claiming. the right of voting
lisitag Barrister. One might be a man of bidghthe anpdolooifo.
dlofty
.denseauour, who bad served his country.
sule, and who wore on his breast decorations won by
hie i
gallantry, but, because he claimed a vote in respect
of a tenement worth 48!. a year, the Barrister would
114 y, f‘ If you had all the glory of the Duke of Welling.
ton, and all the hcaours of
.Lord Nelson, and occupy
a tenement of 481. a year, you are not worthy to be
placed noon the register, according to the present
law." This was the class of persons who would be
enfranchised by the Bill which, his Henourahle Friend
asked_ leave to introduce. But what was the class of per-
sons-who would have been placed upon the register under
the recent proposition of the Government? They might
be told of " after-dinner jokes," but the proposition of
(Mr. Walpole) was delibe-
rately submitted, to the House, and he did not suppose
that Lord Derby would condescend to treat with such
leeity etr question of this importance, or that he would
make a fool of the House of Parliament—(A laugh)—by
putting forth such a proposition, if be did not intend. to
carry it out. Well, another person claiming a vote might
be a loutish clown--perhaps a feeder of pigs in a farm-
yard; averson somewhat similar to the George Seacoal
*he, was tutored by Dogberry. Indeed, he might per-
haps be accosted in the language of Dogberry—" Come
hither, neighbour Seacoal; God bath blessed you with
a good name; to be a well-favoured man is the gift of
fortune, but to write and read comes by nature;" for a
vote for a county, according to the proposition of the
.Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, came by natore.—(A.
laugh.) If such a man was eshe'd for his qualification,
be might say that he had received 61., that be put on a
red coat for some three weeks in each year, that he was
sfeet 2 inches high, and that he was, therefore, entitled
to be placed on the register.—(Cries of " Divide!") All
he (Sir B. Hall) could say was, that if tbe.Government
intended 'to abide by a recent statement of the Noble
Earl (Lord. Derby), that it was his intention there should
be no reform, the House and the country ought to un-
derstand their intentions clearly and 'distinctly. It, on
the other hand, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mt. Disraeli)
liteant to enfranchise the working classes. let him say
se- at once, and ho (Sir Benjamina Hall) would be
.v9ll glad to see a Bill for that purpose laid on the
101e.—(Divide, divide.)
Air. L. KING, in reply, observed that it had been
sigd the measure he proposed would introduce a very
great constitutional change. It would, however, do an
act of
,simple justice, by giving to the inhabitants of
certain localities the right of voting possessed by per-
86ca occupying property of the same value in other lo-
calities; and se far he thought it was desirable that
teconstitutional change should take place. It had
.."4 also said that the object of his measure was
'"Frely to secure representation to property; but
he contended for was, that if property was repre-
sented in one locality it should be represented fairly in
another.
division (for which the House had for some time
aen extremely impatient.) then took place, when these
appeared—
For the motion 149
Against it •-• .. 202 .
Majority against the motion .
... --53 isEivo was then given to Sir W. P. W0411:1 to bring in
a _ Bill to extend the provisions of the Trustees Act,
1850. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman expisined
what were the defects which he wished to remedy, re-
lating (we believe) chiefly to cases in which
inlants, and
bawled women are concerned.

COLONEL OUTRAN.
ANSTEY rose to bring before the Hotise a sub-
leat on which he had given notice of two motions, one
for the production of the papers relating to Colonel Out-
raM'a ease, and the other for an instruction to the Com-
1114tee on Indian Territories to examine Colonel Outram
menhing the alleged corruption of the Bombay Govern-
to t. The Hon. and Learned Member was proceeding
speak upon the first motion, which was for "copies
of the
Papers and correspondence concerning the inves-
-1-44,,4"°„0s made by Colonel Outram, 0.13., into the exist-
Zlsub' corrupt relations between the Guicowar or his
rets and certain officers of the Bombay Government;
lislilaan.ot of the removal of the said officer from
of Resident at Baroda," when
the BAILLIE interrupted him by observing that
papersb he had more than once asked for had arrived
'1,71e last mail, and were under consideration.
tt ANSTEY said he would, however, press his mo-
r,,_°°. ?• He had nothing to do with the way in which the
altoutiction of tho documents might affect the pecuniary
in,er"ts of Colonfl Oatrato• he made his motion in the
„„*"'est of the natives of India, and the service of India,
17,11 this country, the honour of which was involved. The
rained
result of an attempt to stifle inquiry into what yet
"rifled to be known of this case, the main facts of
sileh were notorious, could be, not the evasion of shame
disgrace, but the impunity of the off-rider. He was
",,„"o
:11 proceeding to enter upon the history of the case,
I""`*referrinformer charges of a similar kind in
R„ . gto ; but
AARON. MEMBER rose, and took notice that there were
°7t' 4,.? Members present.
SPEAKER, counted,- and, finding that there were
o
1
4, adjourned the House, at a. Quarter before Eight
Until the next (this) dsy.
Sir . M. T. Smith paired against the Militia Bill with
Kerrison.
~„'.rhe Hon. G. H. Cavendish paired against the Militia
ipl,!with Mr. W. Patten, for.
it- G. Dashwood paired against the second reading of
lo.a: Militia Bill with Mr. G. Berkeley.
Ittr SM. L. RING'S I.IIOTION.
"r,
• Alderman Copolaad, till half-past nine, for, with
_ri. Gooch, Bart , again"
'Mr' Grey for, Lord Barrington against.
kr. Alderman Sidney fnr, H ioe

against.