The Sun.
London, England, 1864-05-06 00:00:00

SCIENCES.

Mr. GREGORY gave notice that on the civil service
estimates being proceeded with he would move that the sum
proposed for the purpose of science and arts, namely £16,000,
should be reduced.
CORRESPONDENCE ON THE AFFAIRS OF
SIAM.

In reply to Sir J. HAY,
Sir C. WOOD said he had received some further corre-
spondence on the affairs of Siam and Tuanganu, which he
hoped shortly to be able to lay on the table.
TENURE AND IMPROVEMENT OF L LND IN
IRELAND.

Mr. MAGUIRE asked Mr. Attorney-General for Ire-
land, whether he considered the Tenure and Improvement
of Land Act of 1860 a sufficient protection for the Irish
tenant, and a sufficient inducement to the expenditure of
the tenant's capital, labour, and:skill in effecting improve-
ments ; and if he considered the existing law to be deicient,
either as a stimulus to increased exertion or as a
protection for the enjoyment of its results, was he prepared
to advise her Majesty's Government to introduce a measure,
either now or at a future time, with a view to its amend-
ment.
Mr. O'HAGAN said that the present question was one
of a rather novel nature, and he regretted to say that he did
not think the act of 1860 would have the operation indicated
in the question, as it had practically failed in reference to
Ireland, as appeared trom the official report. He could
not give any opinion as to so important a subject as the
present without stating his reasons, which he understood
was cpposed to the practice of the house. As regarded the
other part of the question, he could only say, that in any-
thing he advised he would be dictated by a desire to pro-
mote the interests of Ireland.
MEDIATION OF THE KING OF PORTUGAL IN

to have the yeomanry cavalry without any addition to the
amount of the estimates. He had, therefore, great satisfac-
tion in stating that the yeomanry would be called out this

year, The noble lord also complimented the ye anry on
their efficiency, and said he believed them to be a necessary

auxiliary to the rifle volunteers." (Laughter.) The hon,
member said, in concluding, he considered this an increase

of warlike expenditure in time of peace, and, although the
vote was small, he should oppose ft, because the sum was
not required. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of HARTINGTON observed, that since
the estimate was framed news had arrived that the war in

New Zealand would be concluded sooner than was antici•

pate',. The necessity that existed before for the reduction
of the sum for the yeomanry no longer existed, atd that
WAS the reason of the course taken by the noble lord at the
head of the Government. (Hear.) News had been received

hat day from New Zealand equally, if not more, favourable
n its character. Therefore, the anticipations on which that

vote was added to the estimates had been fully carried out.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS and Colonel
EDWARDS, in favour of the yeomanry, the committee

divided.
For the vote
Against it
Majority for the vote —93
The vote was then agreed to.
The vote of £326,260 for the volunteers, after some dis-
cussion, was agreed to.

The next vote proposed waa £19,850 for enrolled pen-
sioners and the army reserve force. After some discussion
it was agreed to.

On the sum of L 973,031 being proposed for defraying the
expense of the manufacturing. department and materials
for the manufacture of warlike stores,
Lord ELCHO, in remarking upon the large sum for the
manufacture of small arms, said that since 1851 a new
spirit appeared to take possession of the minds of men with
regard to the discovery of the beat small arm for the de-
struction of the human species. The result was that, as
concerned the army of this country, it was, with the excep-
tion, perhaps, of the Prussian army, the beat armed in the
world. The rifle was now the weapon of the British army,
and every marksman was fully aware of its great Alpe-
. _ _

riority over the Brown Bess of former times. He would now
call attention to the broad results arrived at by the Ord-
nance select committee, who had carefully inquired into the

merits of the Whitworth large bore rifle with service am-

munition, and the Enfield rifle. The conclusion at which

the committee had arrived was, that the ordinary Enfield

was inferior to every large-bore rifle they had tried. The
report of the committee condemned the Enfield rifle as re-

garded accuracy beyond the distance of 600 yards—but the

committee at the same time tried another r;fle which took

service ammunition, and was remarkably free from fouling,

viz., the Lancaster oval•bore rifle. He understood that

there were 170,000,000 of ball cartridges in store, and

although the raport of the Ordnance committee
bearing on this matter had
.been issued in No-
vember, 1E62, it had remained a dead letter ever
since in the archives of the War-office. But

in the meantime the manufacture of small arms had not
ceased, for there were sums of money annually voted for the
purpose, and rifles of the condemned description, to the
amount of upwards of £130,00, had been manufactured by
the Government since November, 1862. He was aware
that attention had been drawn to another description of
large-bore rifle, which promised to give better results than
the Lancaster large-bore, and that it was desired to have
another trial of the Enfield. But wby the Government
should think it necessary to have any more trials of the
Enfield he was at a loss to conceive. The Whitworth rifle
used an ammunition totally different from the service, so
that if it were a dopted it would necessitate the loss of the

170,000.000 of ball cartridges, and the adoption of new ma-
chinery. He ventured to think that the Government, as
soon as they saw the rrport of the Ordnance committee,

should have stopped the manufacture of the inferior article
and availed themselves of the Lancaster rifle. There were
great differences of opinion in men's minds about the com-
parative merits of breech-loaders and muzzle-loaders ; but
all the old soldiers he had conversed with on the subject

expressed a preference for the breech-loader. If they sup-
posed that the army of this country were ordered to Den-
mark, everybody would be of opinion that it would be of the
greatest irapOrtance they should be armed with the same
weapon ra the Prussian army, to whom they would be op-
posed. The Prussian army had for many years been armed
with the breech-loader ; and the Emperor of the French was
trying to get the beat breech-loader; and therefore he
thought her 3laksty's Government should direct immediate
attention to the expediency of adopting breech-loaders.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said the result of the
experiments which the Ordnance select committee had
been conducting was, that they considered the Whitworth
small-bore riff; the best military weapon which had come
before them. At the same time, they did not recommeud
a total re-armament of the troops for the present, as that
would necessitate a change in the ammunition; but
8,000 of these arms would be issued, and especially the 60th
Rifles and the Rifle Brigade—regiments quartered in all

parts of the work:—would be armed with them. As for the
Lancaster rifle, it was only superior to the Enfield at dis-
tances exceeding 500 yards. And though upon the whole
the committee were bound to testify that the Lancaster was
the superior weapon, it was the duty of Lord De Grey to
see if that superiority was likely to be mhintained, and to
judge if the competition which had already taken place was
to be final. It was much better to make the trials as full
and complete as possible. He did not allow that Mr.
Lancaster had been badly treated, and in proof of that he
might say that Mr Lancaster had signed a receipt in lull
for all his claims, and that the 'War Department had deter-
mined not to oppose the renewal of his patent. His own
impression was that ultimately both Mr Whitworth's small
bore and large bore would be adopted. As to breech loaders,
it would never do, in the face of the doubts which existed
as to the value of the principle, suddenly to adopt breech
loaders for the general use of the army.
Mr. VIVIAN supported the adoption of breech loaders,
and condemned the slow degrees with which the experi-
ments were being conducted, The large bore Whitworth
Ras just twice as accurate as the Lancaster rifle, which
Lord Eleho blamed the Goverment for not having adopted.
There was another point to which military men attached
great importance, and that was the use of hardened projec-
tiles. Now these could not be used with the Lancaster rifle,
while the Whitworth was admirably adapted for firing them.
He did not think the Government was fairly censurable for
the course they had taken.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought that both the present
and past Governments were to blame for expending large
sums of money before they had made up their minds
which was the best weapon. He also complained of the
increase of the charge of the establishments included in
this vote, and said he would move a reduction of £6,000
upon the vote, being the difference between the sum asked
fur in the present year and that expended on the same de-
partments four years ago. He thought that Government
manufacture was carried too far, ani that many things
were made in the national establishments which might be
more economically obtained by contract. He wished to
know what had become of the enormous sum of money
which had been expended on guns during the last few years,
and especially on Armstrong guns. From 1858 to 1863 two
millions and a half (besides what had been expended on
ammunition) had been expended on these guns. £183,000
had been laid out on 110 -pounders before it was ascertained
whether that class of guns would answer. As a matter of
fact, they turned out ill. Was, then, this £183,000 lost
The hon. barenet concluded by moving the reduction of the
vote by £6,000.
Captain JERVIS said that as improvements went on it
became requisite to keep pace with them. and this neces-
sarily entailed considerable expense, Tne noble lord (Lord
Eleho) had looked at the question o: the small arms more
with regard to target firing thou with reference to use in
the field. The great advantage of the Lancaster rifle was
that it did not require tea constant cleaning which was ne-
cessary for the Enfield and Whitworth rifles.
Mr. COBDEN thought that the hon. baronet the mem-
ber for Evesham had put his finger on a blot when he
traced the growth of our expenditure of late years to
the increase in our establishments, In 1841 we paid
£600,000 for wages in our dockards and for establish-
ment charges, This year we paid £1,300,000, besides
£450,000 for vessels built by contract. In the army
estimates an item for wages and superintendence was
almoet unknown in 1841 ; this year it amounted to
£520,000. The House might depend upon it that when so
large an amount was paid on wages the Goveetsment was
incurring an immense amount of waste because when-
ever. they paid as a Government 4ney would pay an
immensely higher price than eeey would in purchasing
from a private establishme et. Another most serious view
of the question was .!
filet whatever the heads of depart-
ments came for ta that House they were sure to obtain.
(Hear, hese.) Since he came into the House twenty-three
ago they had voted upwards of £500,000,000 under
tyarneehseads of army, navy, and ordnance, and he had never
known an item reduced or even altered in that House.
(Hear' hear.) Some people might say that the discussions
in that House must have an effect, inasmuch as there
was pu •
blicity attending them; but the discussions seemed
no effect whatever on the heads of departments,
who
to havekno w that all they asked for would be granted, and
were consequently encouraged in making their demands,
There was no representative body in the world where there
of Parliament. They had all read of a most important
Was not a right of supervision, except in the English House
vote in Paris, which was subjected to the revision under
the Corps Legislatit; and was considerably reduced. In
America supervision was exercised ; but in the English
House of Commons he never knew one item revised.
With reference to the waste be ventured to say that
much came under the heads of stores and manufacturing
services. (Hoer, hear.) They had sometimes heard
attempts made to show that the Government manufac-
turing establishments could be carried on as cheaply as
private establishments. Now he had friends on his left
and right who were largely
engaged in business; they
had taken some pains in the investigation of the subject ;
and he never heard one man in business who would not
have agreed that the Government wasted one• half in all
they manufactured for themselves. This was not merely
in the nature of the waste from the articles made, but arose
from the Government being their own customers, and
from having a large establishment where they were
constantly obliged to make things, in order to