The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAREIAAIEN'T

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR took Lis seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
INDIAN OFFICERS—BOUNTIES.—NAVVIES FOR

THE CRIMEA.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUG H. —My lords, as I see the
noble lord the Minister for War in his place, I wish toask
him a question which relates to a subject which has ex-
cited a great deal of interest. The first question relates to
the position of the officers of the army of the East India
Company as compared with that of the officers in the ser-
vice of her Majesty's army. A memorandum, dated the
25th of. April, has appeared in the Gazette, which states
that--

"In order to remove any doubt which may exist as to
the rank and precedence of the officers of the Hon. East
India Company's Service, it is her Majesty's pleasure that
officers of the Hon. Elst India Company's Service, whose
commissions shall be signed by authorities duly deputed to
do so by her Majesty, shall have rank and precedence with
officers of her Majesty's regular army, according to the
dates of their commission, in all parts of her Majesty's do-
minions or elsewhere."

Now, the officers of the Indian army have by common
courtesy held in this country the same rank and precedence
as the officers of the army of the Queen, and no dout,t it
will be agreeable to them to hwie their right to such rank
and precedence properly established, instead of merely
bolding it by courtesy ; but what I wish to know is if this
memorandum relates merely to their position in society;
because, if so, I should have thought that it would have
more properly proceeded from the office of the Earl Mar-
shal, or of the Lord Chambe.lain, than from the War-
office. I cannot help feeling that, this memorandum, in-
stead of raising hopes of further advantage to the officers
of the Indian army, will rather tend to disappoint hopes
which may have been entertained that the Government
were prepared to go further, and to give to all officers
holding brevet rank in India the same brevet rank in her
Majesty's dominions here and elsewhere. Your lordships
must be aware that from the year 1838, for nearly ten
years, a great war raged in our Indian dominions, and
that, therefore, theufficers of the Indian service have had
the opportunity of making themselves acquainted with the
practice and science of war—an advantage which has
not been enjoyed by the officers of her Majesty's army,
with the exceptiori of those who have served in India.
I rejoice, my lords, that there are some officers in the
army in the Crimea who have seen service in India. Gene-
ral Simpson, the bead of the staff, General Pennefathor,
General Sir Colin Campbell, all holding high command,
and enjoying to a considerable extent the confidence of
those under their command, and also Col. M Murdo, the
head of the land transport service, and Col. Harding, the
Commandant at Balaklava, who is, I believe, no relation
of my noble add gallant friend opposite—all these officers
have seen service in India, and all of them acquired a
knowledge of war under the late Sir C. Napier. There are
other officers also who have enjoyed similar opportunities
of acquiring a knowledge of their profession, and who
` have commanded with distinction brigades which con-
tained regiments of her Majesty's troops, and who have
obtained great distinction in the Qui.rtermaster-General's
Department: It appears to me to be contrary to all reason
that, when we have at our disposal officers who have ac-
quired distinction in command where war has been carried
on on a great scale, we should decline to :wall our-
selves of their services, and..should employ the services
of officers who, whatever may be their' claim to dis•
tinction, have had no opportimity of showing any talent
for war. It cannot surely be held that to appoint Indian
officers to command would be an invasion of the privileges
of her Majesty's service. At a recbnt period, and contrary
to all former rule, a regulation of the East In iia Company
had been made, permitting officers of her Majesty's service
to hold staff appointments of a particular description, and
not less than 12 officers of that service now hold appoint-
ments which they could not formerly have held. Why,
then, should there not be a reciprocity, and Indian
officers be admitted to staff appointments us officers of her
Majesty's service are admitted to such appointments in
India? I cannot conceal from myself, nor do I think
that any of your lordships can be blind to the fact, that
a great and growing feeling of dissatisfaction exists
throughout the country with regard to the conduct of
the war, and that feeling is assuming
,preportions which
are extremely alarming; and I much fear that,
unless it be determined by her Majesty's Govern-
ment to place the fittest men in command of all the
divisions and brigades of the army and in situations on the
staff—l much fear, I say, that a feeling will grow up with
respect to persons in authority—(hear, hear) —and which
will be fatal not only to her Majesty's Government, but
which will go much further, and which will endanger the
constitutionuf Government itself. (Heat, hear.) I wish
to ask the noble lord another question, relating to a dif-
ferent subject. I see there is a memorandum, dated April
30, which raises the bounty give❑ to men enlisting for two
years to the same amount as that given to men enlisting
for a longer period. Now, with regard to that memoran-
duin, I wish to know whether it is to be understood as
establishing the principle that the bounty given to men
who enlist for a longer period is to be the same as given to
men who enlist for two years only ? If that be so, I fear
that the result will be that all persons who are desirous
of enlisting will enlist for this shout period, because, at
the end of that period, they will have the option of
engaging for a longer service, and with the certainty
of receiving some further bounty. It seems to me,
too, that men who enlist for the longer period settle
down better to the work and become better soldiers than

those who enlist for two years only, and I would therefore
prefer enlisting men for the longer period But of this I
am quite sure—that if the same bAunty is given to men
who enlist for two years as to those who enlist for a longer
period, all will be desirous of enlisting for two years. I
think that when this memorandum was issued it would
have been advisable to notify that, if the bounty given to
men enlisting for two years was to be r deed to the same
amount as that given to men enlisting for the longer period

the bounty of wen enlisting for t:.; longer period would
also be increased. I fear, however, that the treble lord
has made the same mistake with regard to the bounty
offsrel as was made in the cttse of the militia, and the
consequences of which we all so deeply deplore. My
own impression is that, if instead of offering the
limited bounty of 20s. upon re-attestation, a higher
bounty ha l been offered, a very lane numb ,r of men would
nave been retained in the ranks of the militia who have
now returned to. their homes. There i, another point to
which I wish to call the attention of the noble lord. I
am toll that steps have been taken to engage the services
of 1,000 navvies to work in the trenches, awl that these
navvies are to be place.i under a gentleman who is to have
a salary of 2,0001. a year, that is a sal try which, within
761., is equal to that of a liedenant-general, and superior '
by about 2001. to the salary of the officers attached to the
quartermaster-general's department. I take it for granted
that those navvies will not consent to serve for the same
pay as that given to the Sappers and Miners, and it is a
matter of serious consideration whether men employed in
the same duties and exposed to the same clanger should be
paid at ditlereut rates. What I desire to know is, whe-
ther it is true that it is intended to form a corps of this

description; and, if so, whether it is to be of a military
or civil character? I can hardly imagine it can be of
a civil' character, because it must be employed under
fire like the rest of the troops ; but if it be of a mili-
tary character, what rank is to be given to this gen-
tleman who is to be rewarded with a salary which sur-
passes that of any officer on the quartermaster-general's
staff; what difference is there to be between this body of
1,003 men and the Sappers and Miners ; what authority is
to be given to the officers commanding them; and under
what authority are he men to serve?

Lord PANNILME—My lords,, upon former occasions I
have had to complain that when questions were asked no-
tice was not given beforehand of the subject to which noble
. _

lords intended to refer, but I am bound to state that in all
cases in which questions have been addressed to me by the
noble earl cpposite I have always received the fullest in-
formation respecting the intended question and the nature
and extent of the 'answer which he expected to receive.
This has enabled me not only to meet the noble earl in the
same spirit evinced by him to myself, but also to give four
lordships the fullest information in my power noon the
subjects to which he so ably refers. With reference to the
question which the noble earl has addressed to me on the
subject of Indian officers, I may state that the memoran-
dum to which he adverts goes no further in its spirit than
it does in its letter—namely, to confer upon those officers a
suitable position and authority, which has hitherto been
recognised by courtesy, but with respect to Which some
doubt previously existed. No one can rejoice more than I
do at any mark of favour bestowed upon officers of the
Indian army,and no one would be more unwilling than my-
self to say anything which tends to detract from the praise
which is due to them. They have for a very long period
maintained the honour of the British name throughout the
vast territory in which' that army has served, they have
maintained the integrity of the Indian portion of the em-
pire, and they have assisted in extending it ; still it is my
opinion, as well as that of many others, that the services
and distinctions of the Indian officers have been somewhat
unfairly used to put in the back ground, by comparison,
the services and distinctions of the officers of the Queen's
'service. I think, in a military paint of view, the opportu-
nities those officers have had of practically learning the art
of war have certainly given them great advantages; but I
do not hold that those advantages ought to entitle them to
more. than fair consideration, and they should not be used
as an argument to prevent us from giving the officers in
the Queen's service the fair opportunities which that ser-
vice affords of showing whether they are able t...) carry out
in practice the military knowledge whisdi they already pos-
sess in theory. I cannot see,my lords, because tha Indian
officers have already carved with their swords the way to
military distinction why the same opportunities should be
denied to the Queen's officers of carving with their swords
the way to rhe same military distinctions. I have seen it
stated that the officers in the Queen's service are now classed
in two classes—the Peniusulars, who are said to be too old
to be effective, and the Know-nothings, who are too young.
That is not a fair mode of treating the officers of her Ma-
jesty's army; for, preserving my opinion that the services
which are roost calculated to advance the interests of the
country ought to betaken advantage of, I know of no reason
why well educate fl and well trained British officers should

not be al!owed to go into active service in connection with
the establishment. I am 110. t one of those who would adopt
the course of confining the services of the Aims of the
e
Queen's army, whether belongint, to the establishment or
to the Indian itrtny— for they are alike the Queet's soldiers
—and I am not narrow-minded enough to think that we
ought to snake a distinction between the officers of the two
services. Although progress in thew" matters is slow, it is
also sure, anti as an instance of the manner in which the
subject is treated, I may refer to the fact that in the act of
last session the office of Commander-in-Chief of the Indian
army was thrown open to the officers of tho Ea
stof staff
a
Company's service. With regard to the question
situations, to which the noble earl has alluded, I am given
to understand that, snore staffo than from any other.
cause, it happens that the sta4tuations in England were
so numerous that they have been filled by officers of the In-
dian Willy, very much to the detriment of the performance
of the regimental duties of that army ; and it was found
necessary to rocali some of those officers to their regimental
duties and fill their places by officers of the Queen's army.
'Those are the circumstances I am told, which form the
ground of the statement which the . noble earl has just
made. I do not believe that the officers of the Indian arm?