The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-12 00:00:00

Church. You can do much to break it up, by acting in a
spirit of kindness, forbearance, and generosity."—(Cheers.)
Thee reason why I recapitulate this brief history of the May-
tooth grant is to call back the attention of the House to the
purpose for which the grant was made, to consider how far
those purposes have answered to justify a continuation of the
grant as it is, and a refusal of any inquiry. The three pur-
poses for which the grant was made, the House will remem-
ber are these :—To secure a well-educated, loyal, and domes-
tic priesthood ; to provide funds for the instruction of that
priesthood, which the Roman Catholics were supposed to be
too poor to provide for themselves, in order that the priest-
hood might be brought up in a manner suitable to their holy
office, and the position they would afterwards fill; and to
break up by generosity that formidable conspiracy—(An
Honourable Member —" Confederacy ;" and " Hear, hear,"
from Irish Members)—to break up that formidable con-
federacy which existed in Ireland against the British
Government and the British connexion. These were the
objects for which that grant was made and perpetuated.
Well, then, I ask, has the grant in any instance answered
the purpose for which it was given ?—(Hear, hear.) That
is a question which I think you are bound to answer for
yourselves before you determine whether any Committee of
inquiry is necessary or not. Has the grant, or has it not, pro-
vided a well-educated, loyal, and domestic priesthood for the
people of Ireland? It may have done so up to a certain
:point, but observe what rumour says, for I am not going to
give any opinion of my own upon the subject.—(Derisive
cheers from the Irish Members.) What I say is this, that
there is strong reason to believe that many of the priesthood
educated in that college are members of different orders, who
are sent out to different countries, and who do not remain a
domestic priesthood in Ireland.—(Cheers.) And, it I am
right in my conclusion, I say that it is a material ground
for us to go upon before we decide at once to withdraw the
grant made for giving a domestic priesthood to Ireland, to
see if it be applied for the purpose of giving a priesthood to
other countries, and to inquire whether we are spending Eng-
lish money for such purposes.—(Loud Ministerial cheers.)
But, independendently of that, has or has not the character
of the priesthood changed of late years? I suspect the an-
swer must be instead of domestic influence, foreign influence
has more weight with the priesthood in Ireland.—(Loud
cheers.) I think we shall find that the priesthood of Ire-
land, instead of confining themselves, as they ought to do
to the purpose of extending and supporting their own re-
ligion and their oa n religious views, have, in fact, proved
of an aggressive character, which does constitute what Sir
R. Peel calls a confederacy—l will not say a formidable
confederacy—against the British Crown and the British
connexion. - (Cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr.. G. H.
Moore]. I allude more particularly to what has taken place
since Dr. Cullen was raised to the primacy of the Roman
Catholic Church. The character of the priesthood of Ireland
has been materially changed by that measure. When the
Roman Catholics desired emancipation in the year 1814, I
can produce proofs to you, from the highest authority, that
sthey then laid it down as a proposition which they wished
tthe Government to believe, that the domestic priesthood of
tele country would not be superseded by foreign bishopu
being brought over. Since we have had Dr. Cullen in Ire-
land, we have had foreign influence exercised there, and
events so recent as in the last year will show that the cha-
racter of the education of the priesthood in Ireland has not
been so domestic as the promoters of this grant no doubt an-
ticipated.—(Hear, hear.) If this be so, Ido not say it is a
justification for you to take away the grant, but I do say it
is a justification for you to make the inquiry, in order that
the facts— if they be not as I have conjectured—may be
rightly interpreted.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the
:second point—namely, the poverty under which the col-
lege was labouring, and the reason, therefore, for
giving an extended grant to that college. I remem-
ber when that Act was brought in it was accompanied
by a Bill, brought in by the Right Honourable Baronet the
Member for Ripon, for establishing the Queen's Colleges in
Ireland. Those two acts must be taken together, as part of
one measure. They were simultaneously introduced; they
were intended to have one object; they were proposed with
one view. That object and that view was a national and
'domestic one. It was to heal religious differences, to bring
-Roman Catholics and Protestants into one common scheme
of education, where asperities might be worn off, where con-
ciliation might be encouraged, where friendship and good
-feeling might spring up, and where all differences, which
have unhappily afflicted that unhappy country, might be
brought to an end.— (Hear, hear.) How has that suc-
ceeded? Since Dr. Cullen was appointed Primate of Ireland
there has been a synod at Thurles, and the decrees of that
synod have been confirmed by the Court of Rome, and by
those decrees no Roman Catholic bishop is allowed to have
any place in any of those colleges; no ecclesiastic is allowed
to be a professor or dean in those colleges; and the laity
were recommended at least, though not actually enjoined, to
abstain from sending their children to them. —(" Hear,
hear," from Mr. G. H. Moore.) The Honourable
Gentleman cheers, but what is the inference which
the House and the country will draw from it? The infe-
rence is, that the object which my Right Hon. Friend had
in bringing in those Bills, and the object of the legis-
lature in passing them—the benevolent and conciliatory ob-
ject has been defeated and destroyed by those who are acting
tinder foreign influence.—(Loud Ministerial cheers.) But
that is not all. Since that has happened, you (addressing
the Hon. Member) have endeavoured to establish colleges of
your own. If you establish those colleges of your own, you
cannot complain if we say it is for the purpose of separating
Boman Catholics from Protestants—(No, no)—of keeping
education from the laity—(No, no)—and of keeping the
priesthood under foreign influence, by ultramontane laws.—
(Emphatic cries of " No, no," order, and cheers.) The last
point is the most material one. Sir Robert Peel said he sent
forth this grant as a messenger of peace, that he sent it, as
the Honourable -Member for North Warwickshire had said,
in a liberal and confiding spirit—that he intended it to
settle great religious differences, and to break up this
formidable confederacy. I ask any man who hears me whe-
ther the grant has had that effect—whether the system of
education there established has accomplished its object—
whether some of the best supporters of that Act have not
felt in the greatest degree disappointed at the failure of the
results intended to flow from it?—(Hear, hear.) We feel
our disappointment all the more bitter, because we have no
means of bringing about those beneficial and peaceful re-
sults which I firmly believe was the object of Sir Robert
Peel's Government to bring about, when those two Acts
were introduced.—(Hear, hear.) There is one answer which
by anticipation I must notice, and it is the same as is con-
tained in the proposed amendment of the Honourable Mem-
ber for Kerry, that visitors of the College are appointed to
inquire into the management, discipline, and government of
the college, and therefore no inquiry by a Committee is
mecessary. Has the Honourable Member referred year
after year to the reports of those visitors? Does he know
whether the inquiries of the visitors will answer
the object of the Honourable Member for North War-
wickshire? I will take the last of these reports, and it
is a very good sample of the whole of them. The report
goes into any complaints by the president, any complaints
by the superiors or professors, any complaints by the students ;
then as to the oath of allegiance being taken by the
students, and then into the detail of the number and duties
of the professors ; then as to any change or alteration of
the college discipline or any improvement in the system of
education within its walls. The visitors wound up by saying
they bad concluded the necessary inquiries, and the House
would see all the inquiries which they considered necessary
'were inquiries which had nothing whatever to do with the
subject under discuSsion. I think that the inquiry ought to
be granted upon the three grounds to which I have adverted,
for, seeing as I do, or at least as I think I do, that the con-
ditions upon which this grant was made have not been ade-
quately or completely fulfilled, and seeing that the reason
for which it was made are no longer existing to the same ex-
tent as they were when it was made, since we hear that
funds are forthcoming to endow other colleges opposed to tha
system we intended to establish ; and seeing that the objects
Sir Robert Peel had in view—those peaceful, loyal, domestic
objects—have not been accomplished as Parliament hoped
they would be accomplished, I think the country has a right
to ask, and Parliament is bound to concede, some inquiry.—
(Loud Ministerial cheers.) Unless I have been anticipated
by the cheers of Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who seem
to think I am shrinking trom an avowal of my own opinions
hear)—I wish those opinions to abide the result of
that inquiry. I did not wish and I do not wish to prejudge
the question.—(Derisive cheers.) I repeat it again I did
not wish and Ido not wish to prejudge the question. The
result of that inquiry may be a complete withdrawal or abo-
lition of that grant, or such changes as may be easily con-
ceived would amount to the abolition of the grant. From all
this I frankly say on the part of myself and on the part of
the Government, we do not wish to be precluded, but we
wish that there should be such an inquiry that the whole
question.may be investigated, and so settled at some future
dy, when the faets are known and ascertained, as to carry
outa the intentions of the Legislature, and contribute, as far
may be, to the peace and
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNEperity of the country.
English constituency, h e said, as he represented an
attempted
have consulted his general
convenience, and have to evade the question
brought forward tow-nightiot thelire Honourable Gentleman the
Member for North
on
this motion as a mean attempt
Honourable
rßainste asa he
no-Poperylooked
cry—u.p
(Loud cheers)—upon which Gentlemen might
go to the hustings, he would not forh one instant shrink from
expressing his opinion, nor
dleorooto
hwnnhattnhee ceoonn-.
sidered base fanaticism, even I(schhoueeelpd:oi.nt
fidence of his constituency.— The Honourable
Member for North Warwickshire commenced speech upon
this subject, as he always commenced it, with assurances
the greatest goodwill and love towards his Roman Catholeicf
fellow-subjects; but in his next breath he followeal it up by
telling the House, they professed a creedsubversive
allegiance and injurious to morality. The House ha of
heard
and therefore he need not follow the Hon. Member in all
quotations he had made from casuists and text books, but
be, for one, objected to the motion of the Honourable Mem-
ber, because, when he remembered the course he (Mr.
Spooner) had always pursued, and the unmeasured length
of denunciation in which be had always indulged
with regard to his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects. he (Mr.
Osborne) was persuaded the appointment of the Committee
would be only to confirm a foregone conclusion.—.(Hear,
hear.) When the Hon. Member for North Warwickshire
called upon the House to inquire into the system of educa-
tion pursued in this college, it was not for the purpose of
inquiring into the system of education, but for the purposee
of destroying the Roman Catholic system of religion..ll -
/soda eat Rome had been the constant cry of the Honour-
able Member.—(Hear, hear.) He cheers that and yet •he
loves his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects.—(Cheers from the
Irish Members.) The Honourable Member had been re-
peating toh-antig.ht what he rehearsed in 1845, with this dif-
ference,resist; now 1845 there was a great muster in power to
it into action. If
fiends were there and were about .to carry
at the anything could have increased his sur-
prisespeech uttered b
conduct of the present Government it was the
Under
the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment.a
bitter enmity_rethe voice of conciliation he concealed
Member for North of " Hear, hear.) The Honourable
from Sir Robert Peel's speech,
quoted several extracts
remembered right, the s
peech, as to this inquiry. But if he
amendment, the same Honourable Member supported an
as the motion he now made, and the
answer of Sir Robert Peel was
and the power in the hands olnalte the power of the visitors,
andte Lord-Lieutenant, were
quite sufficient for the purpose to any inquiry, it
would only increase animosity t as
between Roman Catholics and
Protestants, not only in Ireland, but in this country.—
(Cheers.) And now he (Mr. Osborne
the course
pursued by the then supporters of Sir Osborne) came
to t
Peel and the
Should
be a
present members of the Government ; and if he
little tedious in reading extracts not perhaps
learned divines, but probably from as great statesmen, he
fromsuch
must throw himself upon the indulgence of the House.
lion. Member for Youghal had read to them the p • The
Lord Stanley in June. 1845, and what he said upon
of
an
amendment proposed by the Earl of Roden. When Lord
-Derby—Lord Stanley upon that occasion—took that view,
what did Mr. Pakington, the present Secretary of State,
for the Colonies, think ? "He did not think it in-
consistent with hls duty as a Churchman to give
t-e. endowment of Maynooth his support—nbt a
cold
or hesitating support—not , a reluctant support
extracted by party ties, but a cordial and willing
support, founded on deep conviction, first, that they must
not venture to have Maynooth on its present footing ;
secondly, that this measure was called for as a step in that
wise and conciliatory policy
toward
Government should attempt to carrys lorutel."—(Hear, hear.)
Ireland which every
He (Mr. Osborne) did
apt Res the Secretary for the Colonies

in his place, and probably his opinions upon religious sub- sum. The entire public income of Ireland, including church
sects had undergone as much change as his opinions upon revenues and other sources, amounted to 5,000,0001. per
saccharine matters.—CHeat, and ha
laugh.) Now, he was in annum; and of this sum one million was given to the
a position to carry out those wise and conciliatory measures Protestant clergy, and 38,0001. to the Presbyterians, and
be so much admired,—(Renewed laughter.) Talking of the only 26,000/. to the Roman Catholics; and yet they had the
character of the Irish priests having changed, and accusing barefaced presumption to come down to the House and tell
them of a want of allegiance to the present Sovereign, what them ;that Otis paltry grant was given from Protestant
said the Noble Lord who was supposed alone to represent the funds.—(Laughter try
c He said it was Roman
chivalry in this House? —the Noble Lord, the First Commis- Catholic money; that it was a ease of restitution ; and that
sinner of Woods and Forests, when if all parties had their just right the Protestant Church
"As free as nature first made man, would not be endowed as it was that day. He warned the
And wild in woods the naked savage ran." Hon. Member for North Warwickshire, who professed such
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) In one of the best speeches he great and exceeding love for the Protestant Church of Ire.
ever delivered, and he had spoken many good ones, he said : land, that if there was one step more fraught with mischief
"The cry is raised, ' The Church is in danger.' I admit that to that church than another, it was the step he had taken
it is; but not from this grant to Maynooth, nor from the to-night, and in which he was supported by the Right Hon.
Vatican, nor from the Jesuits, that the Irish Church is in the Home Secretary.—(Cheers. ) The Hon. Member for
peril; it is from herself; from her own self-willed and dis- North Warwickshire talked of the various sums which had
obedient laity that she is in danger. They who would have been given to the Roman Catholic Church. He held in hie 1
her isolate herself from the rest of Catholic Christendom, hand a list of the sums which had been given to that church
fraternize with the Puritan, and denounce priestcraft with from the Union down to 1845. And now let the House see
the Presbyterian ! I admit the Church to be in danger. I the treatment which the Roman Catholics had received
am irresistibly reminded of the dying words of the martyred at the hands of this House, and the rigorous
Laud on the scaffold. They may who list trace all the glory, spirit with which
they had treated Ireland. Since
renown, and magnificence of the old English monarchy to thet Union 5,207,000/. had been given to the Estab-
the Dutch conquest of 1688, even in the penal code and Pro- ished Church. The Presbyterian Dissenters had received
testant ascendancy the safeguards of the empire; but, for 1,0 i 9,0001. ; and let the House hear, and blush at the
myself, I claim a liberty to mount higher, and to act iu beggarly votes that had been given to the Roman Catholics,
1845 as though win jun ' 111. had died Stadtholder of Hol- all they had received was the sum of 375,0001. When the
land."—(Hear, hear.) Is he Ong to act in 1852 as if Hon. Gentleman summed up his speech he told the House
William of range had died S'tadtholder of Holland ? to beware how they endowed error. When he (Mr. Osborne)
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord proceeded with some very heard that, he could not help being reminded at the words of
Mr. Grattan in 1797, who warned the Protestant clergymen
pretty poetry:— to beware how they used such language as the Hon. Gentle-
" The priests, those gentle priests and good,
man had now used, and reminded them that it was not de-
Their fathers loved to hear, cent for them to say, give us all the good things in the
Sole type below, midst work and woe,
name of God, and nothing to the others.—(Cheers.) What-
Of the God whom they revere."
" Acknowledge frankly, and at once, that power which ever his views might be with regard to the amendment of
you admit to be so great, and which hitherto, with a fatal the Hon. Member for Youghal and the abstract justice of en-
obstinacy, you pretended to ignore. Accredit a minister dewing any religious denomination, he certainly would never
to the and
laughter.) a Nuncio at St. James's be a party to begin with his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects.
—(Cheers and ger . • • . With every feeling of If the House really intended to enter into this subject, let
tonfide as a Churchman, that I am not acting disloyally them have an immediate inquiry into the funds of the
wards the Church in sanctioning this measure, and, as a blished Church, and the .Regium Donum of the Presbyterians
statesman, that I am promoting the best interests of my as well as of the Roman Catholic Church. But lie would
country, I give my vote for the permanent endowment of best no party to this attempt to prop up theting rotten
the College of Maynooth." Those were the opinions of two sym of
RomanPr Catholics.test
l He would
permanent endowment of Maynooth. But there was an- party cry of the Government with which to go to the
other member of the present Cabinet who consistently op- hustings—a Government acting upon the doctrine of com-
posed this grant—the present Chancellor of the Exchequer— promise and expediency, which had been preached on a late
the man who carried brains with him.—(A laugh) He occasion at the Mansion-house, and was now to be practised
(Mr. Osborne) must crave their forbearance; though after in St. Stephen's. He rested his opposition on the high ground
the polemics they had had introduced by the reverend gen- of truth and justice. If any one took it on the low ground
tleman—(Loud laughter)—he begged the Hon. Gentleman's of economy, he would remind them that it was hardly con-
pardon—introduced by the Hon. Gentleman, the House sietent in them to complain of their want of national defences
might be inclined to manifest some little impatience, but he —to propose to add to the expenses of the country by en-
begged their attention to this speech of the Chancellor of rolling 80,000 militiamen, while at the same time they were
the Exchequer, because it was upon this speeecb denuding themselves of their best national defences—the
that he based his opposition to the present mo- confidence and the good will of- the people of Ireland. The
tion. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Right Hon. Secretary, of all-men, .had no business to assent
Disraeli) was quarrelling not with Maynooth, but with to this motion—he bad forsaken his position as a Minister of
Sir Robert Peel.- et
lie in a speech delivered on the 1 lth of the British Crown, to become the Minister of a mere party
April, 1845, and he believed that was the first occasion when of fanatics (Cheers.) He realised the prophecy of that
the Right Hon. Gentleman totally fell out with Sir R. Peel. truly great man the late Mr. Sheil,• who said, in 1845. that
The Right Hon. Gentleman opposed the present endowment, if this country should ever fall so low as that Sir Robert
but not upon the grounds taken by the Hon. Member for Peel should be succeeded by a Minister who would pander
North Warwickshire. He had no feeling in common with to the base passions of religious bigotry in this country, a
the Hon. Gentleman; for, in fact, the Right Hon. Gentle- party would arise in Ireland of which they had little concep-
man (Mr. Disraeli) was asleep during the delivery of the
Hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Spooner's) speech—not in a Tree- tion—a party who would call for the repeal of the Union,
sury sleep, but in a bona fide sleep, if the Right Honourable not on futile grounds, but because that statesman had
abdicated the position of a Minister, and had split up the
Gentleman ever did sleep.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) "I empire by pandering to the fanatical passions of a portion of
oppose this Bill on account of the manner in which it has
the people.—(Loud cheers.)
been introduced, and on account of the men by whom it is The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I beg the
. -
brought forward Are we to be told, that be- indulgence of the House for a moment, while I speak to a
cause those men have crossed the floor of the House, and point to which reference has been made by the Hon. Gentle-
have abandoned with their former seats their former Profes- man who has just sat down. The Hon. Gentleman quoted
sions, are we to be told these men's actions are to remain from a speech of mine which he said was delivered in 1815,
uncriticised and unopposed, because they tell us to look to
the merits of their measures, and to forget themselves and and added that in consequence of what he found in that
speech he founded his opposition to this motion. There
their former protestations ?—(Hear.) Let us endeavour to could be no mistake as to the particular speech referred to,
put an end to the misconception and subterfuge which now because he very courteously gave the date of it, the 11th of
surround us.—(Cheers.) You have permitted men to April, 1845, to my Right Hon. Friend ; nor could there be 11
in
Opp Oppes
any mistake as to the particular speech intended, be-
gain power, and enter place, and then carry
cause ho said the speech impugned the intentions of the then
exactly the reverse to those which they professed in o-
Ministry. The Hon. Gentleman then quoted what he called
sition—(Hear, hear)—and you are reconciled to this proce-
a graphic description of the state of Ireland, and to which
dure by being persuaded that by carrying measures which
the House listened with attention. Now, there is nothing
you disapprove of and they pretend to disrelish, they are
of what the Hon. Gentleman quoted in that speech ;both my
making what they call the 'boa bargain' for you. The
Right Hon. Friend and myself have gone over it, and there
Parliamentary course is for this House to have the advantage
is not a syllable of what the Hon. Gentleman quoted in the
of a Government formed on distinct principles.—(Loud
h he referred to us.—(Hear, hear.)
cheers.) Here is a Minister who habitually brings forward speec
that it is to be found in page 36i of " Hansard." If
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE-4 reiterate my statement
as his own measures those schemes and proposals which he
bitterly denounced and
, the Right Hon. Gentleman wishes to get off in his usual
cheers.) Let me ask the ad oppossd in Opposition.—(Renewed
mirers of this ' best-bargain
quibbling way—(Laughter,
beg pardon—in his usual ingenious way—(Cheers, and
system how they think the Right Honourable Gentle
—(Laughter, and loud cries of " Oh, oh")
man would have acted in Opposition ?" "Let us tell per-
sons in high places that cunning is not caution, and that cries of " Oh")--I may state that the last extract I quoted
habitual perfidy is not high policy of State."—(Loud is to be found in a speech delivered by him on February 16,
cheers.) And in all his (Mr. Osborne's) reading he 1844, and surely the Hon. Gentleman will not now eat his
own words.—(oh, oh.)
never read anything so graphic as the Right Hon. Gentle-
Gentleman professed to quote from a speech; delivered•on the
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Hon.
man's definition of the state of Ireland, and upon that state-
meat he grounded his opposition to the present motion. He
(Mr. Disraeli) said, "The present condition of Ireland was to 1 lth April, 1845, on the subject of Maynuoth.--(Loud
found in the speech of April 1 lth ; and now the Honourable
be traced not to Protestantism, but to Puritanism--(llear.) cheers.) I said there was no passage of the kind to be
They would see a a teeming population, which, with reference
Gentleman says the quotation is to be found in a speech de-
to the cultivated soil, was denser to the square mile than
livered on the 16th of February, 1844. But what has that
that of China, created solely by agriculture, with none of
speech to do with the argument I used on the subject of
those sources of wealth which. are developed with civilize-
Maynooth in 1845, and when the Honourable Gentleman
lion, and sustained consequently upon the lowest coneeiv-
alleged I used a statement on which he grounded his oppo-
able diet, so that in case of failure they had no other means
of subsistence upon which they could fall back. That dense sit
of Bfr .
A. HOPE, who was almost inaudible, was understood
population in extreme distress inhabited an island where
to protest against a motion founded on quotations from
.
there was an Established Church, which was not their
church, and a territorial aristocracy, the richest of whom studies connected with a system of faith which had existed
lived in distant capitals. Thus they had a starving popula-
reposed the endowment of Maynooth. The Hon. Member
for centuries before that illustrious statesman Sir R. Peel
tion, an absentee aristocracy, and an alien Church, and, in 13
ligd occupied two mortal hours in re-echoing the old charges
addition, the weakest Executive in the world. That was the
against the Catholics, and cui bono? The only result of such
Irish question."— (Cheers.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman,
conduct must be to drive to desperation 6,000,000 or
apostrophizing Sir Robert Peel, and even then foreseeing, as
7,000,000 of our fellow-subjects, already smarting under the
he (Mr. B. Osborne) predicted at the time, that he would
insulting legislation of last session. Only six days ago the
one day be Minister—he said, "The monent you have a strong
House heard with pleasure the Secretary for the Colonies
Executive, a just Administration, and ecclesiastical equality,
lay down the sensible and statesmanlike dictum, that no
you will have order and peace in Ireland."—(Loud cheers.)
difference should exist between the European and native in-
( Here Mr. Walpole was about to leave the House, when the
Hon. Gentleman exclaimed—As the Right Hon. Gentleman habitants of New Zealand as regarded the enjoyment of civil
is going to find the volume, I will give him the date before he rights, and now it was proposed to treat the Roman Catholics
goes.—(Laughter.) He will find it in a speech delivered April of Ireland with less liberality than was displayed towards
11, 1845.) He continued—lt was because there was no the New Zealanders. As far as he could tell, the College of
ecclesiastical equality at this moment that he refused to be a Maynooth had answered its purpose; but, nevertheless, it
party in aiming this one-sided blow at his Roman Catholic was to be offered up as a sacrifice to the spirit of the Dur-
fellow-countrymen. He could not look at this question in ham letter—to the designing speculation to which the late
the light of a common endowment. He looked at it in the Prime Minister—in the most petty days of a Ministry un-
light and as of the nature of a restitution. These were the Paralled in pettiness—had recourse with the view of prop-
words used in this House by a Noble Lord, who was now Ping
Mr. NEWDEGATE said the Hon. Gentleman who last
his failing power.— (Hear.)
Sandon, who represented Liverpool ; and they were' used also
member of another House—the Earl of Harrowby, then Lord
addressed the House had not once touched the question be-
by the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London. fore it. The Hon. Member for Middlesex had made an
tion. He hoped the Noble Lord still looked upon it in that
The Noble Lord looked upon it then in the light of a restitu- amusing speech, but he showed himself throughout to' be •,
light, and that he would not consent—though he had been ignorant of the whole question at issue. Amongst the quo-
he would not consent to be a party in aim this direct
quoted to-night along with Cassabuchis - (Lauhter)—that tations which the Hon. Gentleman made, was one which
treated unfairly the Right Hen. the Chancellor of the Ex-
the prejudices of Englishmen, some of whom might be to the Right Hon. Gentleman.--( Hear, from an Hon. Mem-
insult at the Roman Catholics, that he would not pander to chequer. It was shown that the extraet read did not apply
ext election— he hoped the Noble Lord woUld not pander extract.—(Mr. Monsen, we believe, "it doesnot require it.")
hnonest, but many of whom were merely scheming for the ber.) Perhaps the Hon. Member would improve the
that he would resist the motion.—(Hear, hear.) He could not cowardly motion. He had icing been proud of his colleague,
to the base feelings of these fanatics and schemers and The Motion made by his Hon. Colleague was designated a
understand ad arty talking of the hive they bore to the Ito- sion ; fdr, although struck - &Own that day, and driven ovee,
but he was never so proud of him as he was on that occa-
man Catholics, at the same time that they -addressed them in he vet, rather than forego the opPortunity of bringing fdr-
terms such as were used by the Hon. Member for North ward the motion before the House, came down to the House
Warwickshire, followed, as he was, in milder language at all hazards, and brought forward the question relative
though in the same spirit, by the Right lion, the Home to Maynooth, with that ability for which be- was so re-
Secretary. If they entered into a political union with Ire. markable.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") And this was the
land, the mass of whose population were Roman Ca- man that was taunted .with cowardice.— (Hear, hear.)
tholics, they were bound to put the priesthood of that The motion was met by an amendment by the Honourable
people en a footing of equality with the Protestante. If
Parliament would not do that—if they refused to give to motion by aside -wind.--(Flear, hear.) It was said that
Member for Youghal, whose object was to get rid of the
Irishmen their just rights—then he said they were bound Sir Robert Peel opposed a motion for inquiry into Maynooth
to dissolve the Union. But they had no right to come College in 1845. But were 'there no reasons since 1845
down to this House, and while they gave 35,000/. as a that would warrant an inquiry into the system of education
.Regium Donum to the Presbyterians, refuse this paltry vote at ,Maynooth, even it there was no ground for doing so in
of 26,0001. to the Roman Catholics, and thus offer another that year? He asked the Honourable Member for Athlone
insult to the feelings of the mass of the population. Bu', if he could deny this fact?
said the Hon. Gentleman, in the true pulpit-ground style of the College of Maynooth in that House, in reference
of oratory, I object to the propagation of error, and the to Den's Theology, said be was no more to be bound to
The late Mr. Shell, in speaking
Hon. Gentleman quoted a great many extracts, which they
all had the misery of hearing, from a variety of books, some every text in Coke or Blackstone.—(Elear, hear.) But
defend every text in a college book than he was to defend
of which were not text -books of Maynooth at all. At one
the Right Honourable Gentleman added that if there was
time he feared the Hon. Gentleman was about to quote any doubt as regarded the teaching in Maynooth, why,
the whole works of Thomas Aquinas, who wrote let an inquiry be instituted into the matter, and every
140 volumes —(Laughter.) He also quoted from the works
Catholic Member would support a motion to that effect.
of a M. Bailie, whose name the Honourable Gentleman Well, that was all the motion before the House pro-
pronounced in such a manner that some Gentlemen thought posed. But Mr. Sheil was dead, and so was Dr. Murray.
it was Henry Balla, a Member of this House—(Laughter.) But they had still Dr. M.Hale and the Defence Asso-
He (Mr. Osborne) must protest against such a course. This elation, and they had, too, Mr. Cahill, who called on the
House had no right to have its time wasted, its attention Catholics of Ireland to bide their time in the event of
distracted, and the worst Passions of the people excited by foreign invasion.—(Hear, hear.) The motion of his Hon.
the speech of the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman
had no business to make this House a rostrum from which
to address his North Warwickshire constituents.—(Hear, Friend left the House no option. After the facts stated by
his Hon. Friend—supported, as his motion was, by the feel-
hear.) The Hon. Gentleman was followed by the Noble propositionin of the country—it would be impossible to negative the
before the House. The :110nonrable Gentleman
Lord the Member for Woodstock, whose abilities no one would
deny, and he had no doubt that when the Noble Lord had then proceeded to contend that the system pursued at May-
nooth made the priests tyrants over the people, who were
a little more information, and had read more of the books
whch they were all told they ought to study, he would not now flying to America away from the influence of the priests ;
and it was a fact, that the Catholics, when they went to
come to the conclusions at which he now appeared to have
arrived. But when the Noble Lord said he refused to pro- P
America; left the Church in which they were brought up, and
arson over to Protestantism.—(oh.) These facts could not
pagate error, he asked him how he would get over the fact
that in many of our colonies—in Malta, in Gibraltar, in the be denied. The priests of Ireland were now setting their
faces against emigration. To show the desire of the priests
Mauritius, and in Canada—Roman Catholicism was for domination, he need only refer to the scene which took
guaranteed by direct votes of this House ? If they was
at a dinner given to the Hon. Member for Athlone. It
looked at all their colonies, from India to Newfound- was arranged that a gentleman named Roach should return
land, they would find that this House had guaranteed thanks for the press, but the priests insisted on Mr. Lucas
the establishment of Roman Catholicism. -Even in being heard in reply to the toast. Now, Mr. Lucas was the
Ireland they would find that 280 chaplains-of work- editor of the Tablet, which, he hesitated not to say, was
houses were paid and supported by direct votes of this filled with most disgraceful libels. He hoped the House
would
House. Nay, if he remembered rightly, the Government of support the motion.
Gen-
the day founded in 1833 a Hindoo college for the propagation
joHindonism. He wondered if the Hon. Gentleman was as Mr. MONSELL would passby the speech of the Hon. Gen-
tthe( et
nbyotthsleep.
11 acquainted with the Hindoo system of divinity as he tleman with but a single remark respecting his allusion to
the Rev. Mr, Meehan, He (Mr. Monsell) would pledge him-
professed to be with Roman Catholicism? What was the self that the wordi quoted by the Hon. Gentleman were never
pronounced those House to think of the odour of that sanctity which strained
Maynooth gnat and swallowed the Brahminieal camel? used by the Rev. Mr. Meehan.
at May
h,
anhdatetwere they to think of a system which Mr. NE WDEGATE, amid loud cries of " Order," said
nies that were y
doctrines to be damnable that were taught made'
he would establish the accuracy of the statement he had
Were they Maynooth,
suppose that
the very indecent practisedceremo-
nies at Benares ? (Continued cheering.)
"meMr. MONSELL was certain the words were never used.
the HfoonlioGweenr Gentleman
Hanomfoer North Lary He vi as surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman the •Secre-
tary— whotpary for the Home Department should, considering his high
the only member of the Cabinet
Warwickshire,
together with
his speech— (Laughter)— Position, have ratified by his statement the abusive harangue
that was
had greater respectwafyorw
wasnaoos- than they had for Roman
Ilan
during his
made against one-third of her Majesty's subjects by the Hon.
No ; but itMember for North Warwickshire.— (Hear, hear, from the
Catholics? Opposition benches.) It was quite manifest that the object
they were -to treat India as because they knew that if of the motion was not to inquire into Maynooth, bUt to
great empire would very speedily they treated Ireland this diminish the number of Roman Catholic clergymen. But
(Cheers) But then theßight totter to its foundations.— what was the conduct of every other country where there
that the character of the Roman cnaotshtrable Secretary said was a minority professing a creed different from the rest of
changed, and from his language he left the priesthood was the people? Why, in every instance that minority was
that they had been among the chief condueeHt House to imagine treated with consideration. They had schools granted for
section in 1848. Had the Right Hon. Gentle
tors of the instils- their children, and their clergymen were supported at the
pains to inquire into the statistics of Maynoonitr? taken the expense of the state. Why did not England, which made
aware that Primate Cullen was not brought Up at Maynooth
as he such loud professions of civil and religious liberty, do the
at all? Was be aware that in that unfortunate-conrooth same? Why, after taking away from the Roman Catholics
or conspiracy, or whatever he might choose to call izderacy of Ireland the funds given by their ancestors for religious
was only one priest connected with Mavnooth who at, thereail purposes, should the English people now attempt to take
sympathised in it, and that was Father ken on? Yet' ihe nwotaat,llloso this miserable grant of 26,000/, a year? He did
Right Hon. Gentleman bad the indecency to come'forward on' thosewhok the present Tories were following the example of
and tell them that he was for •
the eve of a general election, . in that House, that the -
an inquiry, because the Maynooth priests were disloyal, and • the same principles' . Tories of the present day professed
abetted rebellion. Was he aware, on the other hand, tht ego.. But Mr ma
which the Whigs did a hundred years
rnished many sympathisers with ciety w ' naulaY, in reply, remarked that " so-
Trinity College, Dublin, fu hat the
tail was
so constantly advan • '
Smith O'Brien ? (Hear.) Was he aware tat famous was now where' the h cing in knowledge that the
song which rang through all Ireland— . . ago, but the head ead had been some geneeations
" Who fears to speak of '98," distance." Neither ' and the tail were still at an equal
Pitt, Percival,
Trinity College?— vehemence against the Roman nor Lord Clare, whose
was the production of a man educated atcould deny, would if living, Catholic` religidn nobody
•at all, let it not
(Hear, hear.) If there was to be an inquiry
ynooth. He (Mr Mof the
be College-let
a one-sided inquiry ; let them go to Trinityhimself alone-=would He( Mr. .----cmeell)— and he spoke for
be
themadopted at all their places of not oppose th
see what was the system
education,—(Cheers.) f made by the
n•—e Cheers.) But a great point was rawith Maynooth was everything connected
Hon. Member by the it investigated and i '
Secretary,
for North Warwickshire, followed
of would be seen that the institution nquiredinto the more
lime
that they had no right to give the mony
Protestants for the endowment of error. Now he at once founders. Ile had received letter,the intentions of the
Arch-
denieda from the Catholic
that this was He
denied altogether Protestant money.—(Cheers.)bishop of Armagh, expressive of his .opinidn
that the money so given to Mayneoth was should not be opposed, because everything that the •
connected motion
in any sense Protestant money, He held in his hand a list the College of Maynooth was as - public as nssh et Ith
of the public revenue
the sth of January, isetised in Ireland for the year ending nothing done that could fear investigation. Thep onlyle' and
total amount was 3,50010 from which it appeared that the i ninon he would make on the subject was, that the Crn ?Am'
tariff of taxation, it , 00/. sterling, and on examining the , should be a fair one, and he trusted that a majority mittee
of
would be fthe
PoPulation contributed by _ ound that the Roman Catholic House would take care that those persons who prejudged the
tar the larger proportion of that , queetiOn elaeuld be excluded from the Committee.

stitutions. But, notwithstanding that direction, when
the Commission came to report, they prominently and, I
think, wisely stated :—" 'We did not consider that it fell
within our province to examine into the tenets of the Roman
Catholic religion, except when they,f appeared to be connected
with the civil duties and relations Roman Catholics, either
towards the State or towards their fellow-subjects." I con-
fess it appears to me that these wordimpartially and pre-
cisely state the scope of this inquiry. You are entitled to in-
quire into the system of education, of Roman Catholic
teaching, so far as it touches " the 'ciovnidduties and relations"
of the inmates of the college. Be that you are not en-
titled to go, and into the domain of theology you should be
precluded from entering.—(Hear, hear.) This is the spirit
and intention in which former Acts of Parliament have been
framed. But I understood the Hon. Membera
visitatorial for North
Warwickshire to contend for something like
power with respect to the system of the Roman
of May-
Church as taught and exercised in the College
nooth. I understand it to be the gist of his argumcen Mthay-
at
the Committee should have power to inquire into that
sys-
tem.
But I say, on the contrary, that if you want to fulfil
and adhere to the intentions of the Legislature, you have ne
right to touch that, except where the system bears uponthe
question of civil obedience and the relations of Roman
Catholics towards their fellow-subjects. What, however,
are the provisions of the Acts which have been passed s
The Act of 1795 appointed trustees with visitatorial power?
The Irish Parliament again in 1800 constituted one body of
trustees to hold the property, and another to exercise the
visitaterial power. In the Act of 1845 that power was
continued, but the superior power of Parliament was re-
served a special provision being inserted enabling the Lord
Lieutenant to order a special visitation. The Act of 1845
contained the reservation that the reports of the
visitors should be annually laid on the table of both Houses
of Parliament. I consider that reservation to have been a
distinct recognition of the principle that the intention of
Parliament was to reserve its own full and unimpaired
rights over the institution which it had founded, and that
therefore (setting apart the policy of the case), it is plain
you are exercising a power to which you are entitled in
appointing a Committee.--(hear, hear.) But the Hon.
Member for North Warwickshire was quite in error when he
represented, or intended to represent, that Parliament had
appointed no means of visiting the college with respect to
Roman Catholic discipline and instruction, and that,
therefore, it was the duty of Parliament to step in with
this Select Committee. On the contrary, if be reads the
Acts he cannot fail to perceive that Parliament has consti-
tuted a visitatorial power for specific purposes, and that
that power is final. In the Act of 1800, and the Act of
1845, Parliament stated that any matter which regarded
the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion, doctrine, and dis-
cipline, should not be touched by the body of visitors at
large, but by Roman Catholic visitors exclusively. No-
thing, I think, can be more clear than the statutes and
precedents with regard to this question—nothing can be
more clear than that Parliament, when it entered into these
arrangements, did not intend to place the members of the
Roman Catholic Church perpetually on tenter-hooks, and
bring it into opposition with the religious sentiments of the
people of this country. Parliament approached the sub-
ject in a statesmanlike spirit. It proceeded in the belief that
the Roman Catholic religion was a system well known
in history—was a system whose merits had been tested by
a sufficiently long experience to enable Parliament to say
aye or nay to the question whether it would have relations
with it or not. Proceeding in that spirit, Parliament
did not condescend to accompany the boon with
insufferable conditions, and degrading and painful
reservations, but it provided a security against
the assaults of theological rivalry, and respected the
feelings and doctrines of those persons for whom the endow-
ment was intended. Parliament has left to us a clear pat-
tern and clear rules by which we should now direct .our
course. It is in conformity with those rules that I consent
to the inquiry of the Hon. Member for North Warwickshire.
But I assent to it with the strongest expression of my opi•
mon, that we should proceed on the principle of former years,
namely, that of placing this great and important interna-
tional question, not in private and individual hands, but un-
der the control and responsibility of the Executive Govern-
ment. I think, in obedience to that principle, we ought to
make our inquiry bond fide into the application of the Par-
liamentary grant for purposes which fall within the visita-
tion which Parliament has provided, adhering at the same
time to the terms and spirit of thoe important enactments
which do not permit any Select Committee to depart from
that spirit and those terms.— (Cheers.)
Mr. GRATTAN and Sir R. INGLIS rose together, and al-
though the latter Hon. Gentleman was strongly called for, '
he gave way to the lion. Member for the county of Meath.
The Hon. Gentleman said he was surprised at the course
taken by the Govern-tient on this question; they werawrong
in their principles, their premises, and their conclusions.—(A
laugh.) Parliament came to a settlement—an Irish settle-
ment—when they thought Ireland was going over to France,
and now they thought she might go again in the same direc-
tion they again interposed. They knew nothing of what
they were about.—(A laugh.) It was said that Maynooth
educated such a superabundance of priests that it afforded a
supply for the continent ; whereas the fact was, that of the
priests actually found necessary for the instruction of the
Roman Catholic population of Ireland, no fewer than 149
had been educated on the continent. They talked of loyalty;
what did they mean by loyalty ? What loyalty had their
ancestors shown to the unfortunate'monarch James II.? As
to the oath of allegiance, the best oath of allegiance they
could administer to the Roman Catholic clergy would be a
system of good government.
Sir R. H. INGLIS said that his Right Hon. Colleague,
while admitting that there was no compact or contract be-
tween the Imperial Legislature and the College of Maynooth
which at all precluded the Imperial Legislature from acting
as it might think fit towards that college, had prevented any.
They must take care what they did in the matter, because if
they withdrew the grant to Maynooth, they must also
re-arrange the whole ecclesiastical system in Ireland; the
proposition had been vehemently cheered by the Gentlemen
sitting immediately behind his Right Hon. Friend, because
they foresaw in it the further confiscation of the property of
that Church—a confiscation begun some fifteen years ago,
and which they would fain complete. Confiscation, he
would readily believe, was not in the mind of his Right lion.
Friend, but it was prominently in the mind of his Right
Hen. Friend's cheerers.—(Hear, hear.) His Right Hon.
Friend spoke of Maynooth as' having been established by
Act of Parliament, and so had the Great Western Railway
or the Eastern Counties Railway; but Maynooth was not
so established till the last seven years. Afterwards he
admitted the case stood upon different ground, but up
to 1845 there was no shadow of a foundation for the
claim as a right ; and now it was perfectly within the
discretion of Parliament to pass a Bill to repeal the Act.
But that was not the object of the present motion. The Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department, in a speech, the
language, tone, and manner of which were most temperate
and judicious, had clearly shown that the existing system
of visitatorial inquiry did not in the slightest degree touch
the object which the Hon. Member for North Warwickshire
wished to bring before the House—that it was limited almost
entirely to the external fabric of the establishment, and did
not effect the vital essence of the motion.—(Hear. hear.)
He (Sir R. Inglis) objected to the present motion, however,
that on the 11th of May, with the prospect of a dissolution
imminent in the course of the next three weeks or a month,
it was not desirable to engage in such an inquiry as was con-
templated. Still, when he saw that the leaders of both
parties and the Hon. Member for the county of Limerick
concurred in that motion, he should vote for it as a recogni-
tion of the principle of inquiry, though he believed, that
nothing more could result from it this session.
Mr HUME believed it was the sound policy of this
country to conciliateelreland, and to remove all causes of
discontent, so as to make her; as she ought to be, a tower of
strength to England, instead of being, as she had been, a
source of weakness. The present proposition deserved a
much more serious consideration than it had received. It
was not a common inquiry that was proposed. We had given
to the Irish people an establishment in which they might
educate priests for their own religion, but Parliament had
never prescribed to them in what manner they should teach.
—(Hear.) For some time past they had been considering
how best to strengthen the defences of the country, and, he
asked, was it wise at such a time to press this motion, see-
ing that every Irish Member who had spoken regarded it as
calculated to promole increased discontent in that country ?
He looked upon the motion as most' ill-timed and most un-
just, as tending to persecution and not to information, and
he should, therefore, vote against it.—(llear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I rite for the purpose of
stating very shortly the grounds why I constitute one of
those exceptions, which my Honourable Friend by me was
at a loss to find, who is prepared not to agree to this motion.
It is my intention, if the House divides, to vote both
against the amendment and the original motion.—(Hear,
hear.) Sir, I think that this House is entering on a very
unwise and dangerous course.—(Hear, hear.) I think they
are entering on a course which, if a Committee be granted,
must either end in a nullity or in very dangerous conse-
quences. I think that no ground was laid for the motion of
the Honourable Member for North Warwickshire in the
speech which he made. I think, of that speech, that it
certainly does bring to mind the opinion entertained by
some, that the shades of departed men are wont to hover
over the scenes of their earthly occupations ; and if the shade
of Dr. Duigenan had been hovering over this debate, I can
imagine the grim delight with which his spectre would have
surveyed the scene.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I thought
we had got back to the times when the Catholic question
was debated, and that they were not discussing the inci-
dental and single question of the endowment of the College
of Maypooth; for what was the line of argument which the
lion. Member for North Warwickshire adopted? Did he go
into any details of the system of education at Maynooth
Jo—oaf
a system of education peculiar to that establishment?
he tell us what were the doctrines inculcated by the lecturers
in what way the course of education was likely to defeat the
purposes for which the establishment was framed? If he
did, I must confess that those parts of his speech did not
catch my attention, but I did hear long and elaborate die-
sertations on the fundamental doctrines of the Catholic
Hon.c c I'
gion ; I did hear quotations from writers whom the
_burn.
Gentleman described as the Bacons of the Catholic C
and I presume, therefore, that the main round on which
this inquiry is proposed by him is, that hag
rbelieeeliegsi,ona,ndornaot
doubt sincerely, that there are in theCatho r
least in Catholic authorities, tenets which he coonsoitdreyr.s toI
do
at variance with the welfare of a Protestant co
e.te
sore, if
not like to enter into that question, but I ain q
that were a question fit to be entered on,btahtfttititneins
bneotprboy.
an inquiry into the College of Maynooth t
as stated that one
perly entertained.— (Hear, hear.)
great evil intended to be remedied— power of Intramontane
tained still to be prevailing—is the.ltanwe which is ascer-
and foreign influences and authorietieceoilnleglreeloafnDdi.
ayßnuoot,tbsh?a_ll
we remedy that by abolishing th
recatlofoftbthoesegrwabnot
and I am entitled to say that the
from the College of Maynooth is the
withdrob
support this motion, because
—Hear,
that was fairly avowed by the
hear. ) He put the
Noble Lord who secondedd "This is the first step; and the
question fairly.
object I had in view is tVet.entire withdrawal of the grant,
law." Then, what is to be
and the repeal of the
the result of that? Youexis arei-- to drive your the Irish Catholic
imbued with Ultramontane doctrines priests to be educated abro a d.! and will y come
from abroad less
and foreign influences than if they had been educated
It is absurd to suppose
arise from such a proceed-
at Maynooth? --(Cheers.)
that such a result can
told also that some of those
ing. When we were
k are educated at Maynooth, instead of being employed
o
in Ireland, are sent elsewhere, I think that has been
answered by my
lion. Friend the Member for Mayo, who
ired for the
showed that the total number of priests re qu
supply of Ireland was greater than the number educated at
Maynooth.—(Flear, hear.) As to the conduct of the Irish
bishops, with which great fault has so justly been found, I
cannot see the connexion between that and the endowment
of the College of Maynooth; but we cannot shut our eyes
to the real cause of this motion, and to the real motives by
which it has been:suggested. This motion arises from the
feeling out of doors which has been unfortunately raised
among the Protestant portion of the people of this country
at what I shall not shrink from characterizing as the aggress
sive and violent proceedings of the Church of R0me......
(Cheers.) I do not wonder that these proceedings should
have produced a deep impression of resentment—nay, of
indignation, on the part of the Protestant portion of
the community; but don't—because the Church of Rome
has done that of which the people of England have a
just right to complain—don't, I say, punish the Catho-
lic youth of Ireland who are intended for the priest..

Mr. JAMES DUFF said he should vote for the motion
with the addition of the words proposed by Mr. Heywood.
Mr. MOORE said it had been already called to the atten-
tion of the House that the Hon. Member for North War-
wickshire had placed a notice on the paper to repeal the
Maynooth grant. However, he now appeared to have
altered that intention, coming, as he did, down to that
House with a speech savouring of Exeter-hall, and a mo-
tion savouring still more strongly of Downing-street.-
(Hear.) What was the principle prevailing out of doors
The principle was, that it was not expedient or wise that the
people of this country should be taxed for the maintenance
of a religion which they did not believe to be true. That
was a broad and dear basis to go upon, and one in which
the people of Ireland would entirely concur. But what
need was there of inquiry to establish that? Was there
any person who denied that the religion taught at May-
nooth was unbdieved in by the people of this country.
It had been stated that the object in founding the College
of Maynooth was to preserve the Irish clergy from the
taint of Ultramontanism by educating there in their own 1
country. If so, that object had wonderfully succeeded, for
it would be impossible to find a body of men more racy of
the soil, or more thoroughly incorporated with the people
than the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland -(Hear, hear.)
Six years ago the Government of this country obtained a
rescript from Rome, the intention of which was to fetter
the Irish. ecclesiastics in their political privileges ; and the
press of this country was most Ultramontane in its attacks
on the Irish clergy because of their disobedience to the Court
of Rome.-(Laughter, and cheers from the Opposition.)
Again, Et was only the other day that a Peer of England
was fou.nd clandestinely engaged in supplicating the influ-
ence of the Holy See as regarded the obstinacy of the Irish
priesthood.-(Hear, hear.) If the object of that House was
to denationalise or to unpopularise the Irish clergy, it had
commen.ced at the wrong end. The Irish clergy had for
years been the leaders of the people, for this reason-that
the people had no other leaders. The laws of this country
made it penal to teach a Roman Catholic to read or write;
but the clergy, nevertheless, came in and taught them how
to live and die.-(Hear, hear.) The laws of this country
attempted to make Roman Catholics savages and serfs; but
the cler,gy intervened, they marshalled them into a nation,
and taugert them to be a people.-(Hear, bear.) Let the
State change its policy-let it come over and lead the people,
and the clergy would most willingly deliver up the keys of
the citadel.---( Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE-Sir, I propose to give my vote in
favour of the motion introduced by the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for North Warwickshire. But the subject is of
importance, and I differ so widely in the spirit of the speech
with which the Hen. Gentleman has introduced and re-
commended his motion, that I cannot suffer it to be put
to the vote in silence-(Hear, hear.) Sir, I am not here
to conte‘ace that Parliament is bound by any compact to the
maintenance of the Act that secures this endowment. Ido
not now raise the question of what is due to those indivi-
duals who are indebted to the maintenance of this college for
a livelihood. I speak of the permanent maintenance of the
grant ; an d I disclaim all doctrines of compact.--(Elear, hear.)
But, Sir, I must add, it appears to me that unless you can
show by proofs that the objects and purposes of the endow-
ment have failed, and that the expectations You entertained .
have been frustrated-unless you can show all these, then
prudence* and justice demand the maintenance of the
endowment.-(Hear, hear.) It appears to me that
if failures cannot be shown-and I must say it would be
a subject .of very grave and serious apprehension if this
failure wire shown, because I confess I am surprised at the
manner and tone in which the question has been approached
-that the grant ought not to be withdrawn.-(Heat)
It
appears to me that Hon. Gentlemen seem to think it a small
matter to withdraw this endowment, but they forget that its
importance is not measured by
the figures that designate its
endowment. They forget it is of material service as regards
the arrangements existing between England and Ireland.-
(Hear.) For my owu part I do not say if this endow-
ment can be shown to be mischievous, and the expectations
formed h ave failed, that it ought to be maintained ; but I do
venture eo say that if Parliament withdraws the endowment,
it must be prepared to enter into the whole subject, and be
prepared. to reconstruct the ecclesiastical arrangements.-
(Hear.) I am not speaking of what is right or what is
wrong--I am not speaking of what is to be desired or what
is to be deprecated. For no own part, I deeply deplore
the series of changes into which such a course would pre-
cipitate us. But having these anticipations of the conse-
quences of such a policy, if we begin in the form which I fear
the Hon. Member for North Warwickshire would propose, I
think it is but honest that I should state them to the House.
(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I must sty it appears to me that
no serious case has been made out to prove the failure of
years since this endowment was en-
this endowment.-(Hear, hear.) We have not yet corn-
correct in saying that not a single
pi laertgeoad.thelctyhciloekofiseavmen
student interested in the particular course of theology taught
rgyement_has left Maynooth who entered the college
of the endowment ; and I am sure, Sir,
atsio the atthsee
enlargement
no reasonable man could expect that this endowment was to
act by magic on the sentiments and habits of a whole gene-
ration and an entire people. It is painful for me to hear the
language in which parts of the history of Ireland and circum-
stances in the state of Ireland have been referred' to in `the
course of this night's debate. Nothing is more easy, God
knows, than to make inflammatory and exaspera-
ting statements with • regard to the condition ,of
that unhappy country, and nothing is more easy
han to retaliate upon those
,statements. They may
draw cheers and counter-cheere, and may gratify feelings of
zealots and partizans, but what does all this contribute.to the
peace and happiness of the ceuntry ?-(Hear, hear.) There
was a timeeSir, when the preamble of one of the Acts passed '
in the Irish Parliament relating to the militia was framed
something after this manner : I do not quote the exact
words, but give the substance-" Whereas the Popish. inha-
bitants of this country have often broken out rebellion,
in
and whereas it is most probable that the said inhabitants
,
will again and in a future time rebel ; therefore he it en-
acted -." , Sir, I hoped that the spirit which dictated these
words was no onger represented within these walls. But
when I heard the Honourable Member for North
War-
wickshire speak of the priests of Maynooth and their re-
lation with sedition and rebellion, I could not but feel
the danger we ran,
unless' we put a guard upon our-
selves when approaching such inflaming questions, of
being hurried back into a temper of mind which in our
cooler moments we should deprecate, and of hazarding
disastrous consequences to the country which in those cooler
moments we should deprecate. Sir, I think the Hon. Mem-
ber has mentioned points, and I think also there are other
points which might form legitimate sucjects for Parliamen-
tary inquiry in connection with the College of Maynooth.
taken place at a somewhat !atilt eriotn It appears to me
that nothing can be more entirelyPconsonant with wisdom
two or three years, quiry to have
than that you should wait at least until the pupils, in some
, have successfully
training, in order to attain some practical experience of
their pastoral efficiency, and their general conduct as
compared 'with that of the older priests reared under
the former system. This course, I think, it would be wise
to follow, for at gone through their
Present the evidence on which we could
proceed is scarcely ripe. At the same time, when a motion
is made, we must not only consider the expediency which
dictated it, bat take it large view of the Public interests, and
the consequences which might follow from resisting it.
(Hear, hear:) I confess, therefore, that I think my naus
Friend, who spoke lately from the opposite bench, acted
wisely when he counselled, ethe strong feeling
there was in this country in,
airinsideri
ofieciuiryt
that it is
for the interest of Maynoothtran that obstacles should not ' be
thrown in the w
• aY• If it be true, as has been alleged, that
the establishment is extravagantly rue,
large-4f it be true
(although, I believe,
there
e 'deuce to show) that
at Maynooth there are his no
ea evidence to show) that
isoman Catholic . are the means not only of educating
Roman Catholic priests flit!. Ireland,inne bat that there is a sur-
plus ler England and the
col.that, 1
say, ought not
to be. Whether that b canes
' however, the subject is
one of legitimate in eso or not,ntitled to inquire
whether the 26 000 e quiese We .are g
judiciously,
' a year is •economically, .
and effectively cmployed for the ' r °set; which Parliament
intended. Ney, morel i.
say PahePn allegations such as
those to which the Hon. Member for North W arwickshire
has referred with respect to thevil teaching at Maynooth, as
to civil duties and obligati of 11 hence, Ido not think
the slightest disposition obligations
" show to withhold in-
quiry, although 1 would be sho .
Hon.
confess my own belief that the .
Member would fled that - that point inquiry
would end ' where it
the Honourable ,
Member has spoken of
thebean. Sit',
repor, of the Commis-
sioners of Education made in- 1827, but I doubt
whether he has discharged the duty of wading through it. If
he
had
had thinka he would have found that these Commis-
sioners -a- sounded th ph of teaching with respect
to oaths ; and I doubt whether h will attain different con
clusions than those arrived.-at e b these Commissioners.
These are points wee
• eeehenay be inquyired into ; but I confess
when el pass from these poiut to the eneral tone and spirit
of the speech of the honourables e g
Gentleman,
I must say it
appears to me that he -
.
• 1•S main charge against Maynooth was,
that in it are inculcated the d ' sof the Roman
Catholic faith.--(Ueale hear.) sir,
triwnaes
and is a question
of the gravest charecter whether ' Parliament should enter
into relations with the Roman_
subject. But the quest' Church on that
Catholic .
ion does not depend upon an exams-
nation of minute details, highest
legislative wisdom and at It is a queetio • n for the
referred to the inquiry a ought not to be
statesmanship, and , .
And here I come to the lili report of any Select Committee.
on this inquiry. No, in which must be imposed
Now, 1 the firsthat the
t place, I find Hon.Gentleman who moved the •
meluiry, and the Noble Lord who
seconded him, both looked
means (theirblihin
upon this inquiry simply as a
made up minds ; and Certain charges on which they had
, as a first step in the process, they
propose a repeal of the Act and the withdrawal of the grant.
I hope, Sir, the Hon. Ge m
ntle
-an willnot think I am treat-
ing him with disrespect, when I Select Committee,
appointed en the motion of a Hon. say that a
views' like these, must not b Gentleman who expresses
a Considered a _Select Committee
to be entrusted to his guidance. '-
1 presume to say that the
subject is too large, and too important- d to a
Committee which should be , to be referred
individual►member.-(Hear under the guidance of. any
, hear.) It is a great national
question whether we shall or shallnotwithdraw_ the
endowment of Maynooth. It is
time ought tie be dealt with by the at all
a question which t .
Executive Governmen ,
and I would venture to claim that
pro-
posed`shall likewise be conducted the inquiry now
under the immediate
superintendence and responsibility of the Executive Govern-
ment.--(Hear, hear.) We are here, Sir, to do impartial
justice-to consider alike England, Scotland, and Ireland.
tt is consistent with tl7justice that we should institute in- 1
quiry into the state f the Couee of Maynooth, and the
system of education there. But t would not be consistent
with justice that the conduct of such an inquiry should be
entrusted to any Member of Parliament, however eminent
and however great his gifts, whose
Mind is pledged to a
foregone conclusion. It is not consistent with justice that
should be conducted under such •
inquiry which it is auspices. There is
another limitation.
in the nature o
which se founded f the subject. I conceive
that the inquiry ought not to be into the general character
of the doctrine, or the worship and exercise of the Roman
Catholic religion as practised in the College of Maynooth.- i
(Hear, hear.) Such an
,inquiry, 1 contend, aught not to be
entrusted to a Select Committee.
I have used the words
"discipline," and "
" doctrine," exercise" of the Roman.
Catholic religion, as these are the wide and comprehensive
words contained in the statute. Nor are we without prece-
dent tin . this can. ,The Honourable _Gentleman proposes
that we should inquire into the system of education at May-
nooth, and I fully grant that you may place a construction
words "system of education," if not ruled and
upon these.,
se of Acts of Parliament b
limited by thaw n _ . , y the sense of
by the precedents bearing on the case. I
the country,
these words the lionourabl Gentleman
grant that under e
might be able to introduce such a largeness of theological
would satiety even all appetites in that
direction.-(e-
investigation as
ti ear) Sir,
bear.) But, this is not
the first time
that there has
been inquiry. In 1827 you had the report of
a Royal the
Commission upon College of Maynooth, and
what were the
vieWe contained in the report, and the A
maser
cir-
cumstances which the Commissioners acted? I will
instructions were quite as large as the Honour-
show that the ecouldwish. The Crown- • • •
• -Ise.
able Member bin
the Corankis ion, having recited the address of the House of
Commons, and nominated, the individuals, directed them to
inquire into the nature and extentof the instructions afforded
titutions in Ireland established for the
by the several ins
. and maintained either in whole or in
purpose of education
fund..
They were to • ' into
inquire the
part from the public
nature and extent of theinstruction -

hood.—(E fear, hear.) I contend that it would be not
only unju st but impolitic to do so; because you would
thereby in diet an injury upon yourselves; you would aggra-
vate th• e very evil, ono of the circumstances connected
with wh .ich is the cause of the anger which is at present felt
in many • parts of the country.—(Hear, hear.) I must say
that thi s motion appears to me a motion of vengeance—
(Cheers )—and as a motion of vengeance I think it impolitic.
(Hear, hear.) And it is not only because it is a vin-
dictive netition that I think it an impolitic motion, but be-
cause it is at variance with all those principles of sound na-
tional policy upon which the Government and Parliament of
this cot tntry has hitherto acted in regard to this question. It
is upon that ground—that broad and general ground - that
I am prepared to resist the motion which is now about to be
proposed to the House. My view of the question is not
altered by the very proper and honourable offer which has
been made by the Catholic Members of this House on the
part of the Catholic priesthood of Ireland, to lay the institu-
tion open t o the fullest and freest inquiry. No ground, in
my opinion, has been laid for an inquiry at all at this parti-
cular mom ent. I don't dispute the right of the House to in-
quire. An y institution which is supported in any degree
by public 'money must submit to inquiry, if sufficient ground
is laid for .making the inquiry. There may be ground in
this case, oft not; lam not able to speak as to that. Ali I
contend fur is, that no ground for it has been laid in any-
thing which has been stated in the course of the present de-
bate. But, if inquiry be thought to be necessary, a Right
Hon. Friend of mine has pointed out that there exists an-
other authcsrity under Government capable of making it;
and I must say that in my humble opinion there is no ma-
chinery for making an inquiry of this kind to utterly ob-
jectionable as a Committee of the douse of Commons.—
(Hear, hero.) Why, we should have fifteen gentlemen
sitting up stairs, summoning
before them the different
officers
the varying
of Maynootb, and examining them according
o
Zitherspirit
each member of the Cfaonincymittaene!
be cotaduared with all that respectful hich
abstinence s'
tl" ofe
inqientirlyuirwyoulodf
becomes an inquiry se deeply and
intimately connected with
the religious opinions of men differing
probably in creed
from their examiners, and, if so, you would notg tat the
results which the promoters cf the motion wish -•oe -tt • •
- ,
or it would be conducted upon a different • principle, and
then the result would be that you would have theological
inquiries, which must be highly offensive not only
to the
persons examined but to those who belonged to the same
faith in Ireland ; and I must say that in either
case it
would be most unwise and most inexpedient that the
inquiry should be proceeded with.—(Hear, hear.) But
the people of Ireland will not believe that the mere motive
and object and effect of the motion, if carried, will be to
inquire into the College of Maynooth.—(Hear, hear.) They
will look upon it as the yielding of the House of Commons to
what, if it were not disrespectful so to call the prevalence of
sincere opinion, I would describe as a fanatical cry.--(Hear.)
But the people of Ireland are clearsighted enough to see
that were the Home of Commons to adept this motion
they would be merely yielding to a popular feeling
created by the circumstances of the moment, and if they are
charitable enough not to think that the Members of this
House have yielded to that cry, or that many persons who
are going to vote for this motion have not been much moved
thereto by considerations of the approaching election, they
will be giving them greater credit than in my conscience I
think they desorve.—(Cheers and laughter.) I again say
that if any Members of this House shall call for a division
on this motion, I shall think it my duty to vote against it,
and that I earnestly hope, in spite of the handsome offer on
the part of the Catholic Members to submit the institution
to the fullest inquiry, the House will either resist the motion
altogether, or, if an inquiry be thought expedient, that that
inquiry will be conducted by the Commissioners appointed by
Government, because it is obvious that a subject of such a
delicate nature, involving questions so deeply affecting the
interests of a large Portion of the community, is not a sub-
ject suited to the rough handling of the Members of a Select
Committe of this Howe.—(Cheers.)
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY moved the adjournment of the
debate.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
watched the debate with great attention, and it seemed to
him that it had one remarkable characteristic, and that was
that almost every speaker had been of the same opinion,
and, therefore, it seemed to him extremely advisable to
conclude the debate that night, if possible.—(Hear, hear,
and cries of "Adjourn l")
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL had some strong objections to
urge against the motion, and hoped the debate would be ad-
journed to afford him the opportunity of doing so.—(Hear.)
Mr. REYNOLDS said he was anxious, on a great and
important question like that, to hear from the Chief Se-
cretary for Ireland, or in his absence the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the Irish Attorney-General, some explanation of
the speech which had that night been delivered by the
Secretary of State for the Home Department. He wished
to know whether or not the opinions of the organ of the
Irish Government in that House harmonised with the " No-
l'opery', speech of the Home Secretary, because, after having
listened to that speech with attention and pain, he could not
help coinciding with the Noble Lord (Palmerston) in
thinking that the spirit of ancient and the worst times of
bigotry and intolerance had been revived in this discussion.
In conclusion, Mr. Reynolds said he should support the ad-
journment of the debate, and challenged the Hon. Member
for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) to fix an early day

for resuming it.
Mr. DBUDIMOND also supported the adjournment of the
debate. He was one of the few persons in that House who
had served an apprenticeship to the dulness and the endu-
rance of Dr. Duigenan ; but when this debate should be re-
sumed he would prove that a bigotry more fierce than Dr.
Duigenan's was now in full operation in Ireland—the fiercest
that ever Hildebrand delighted in, or the blackest times of
Popery had ever put in action.—(Hear, hear.)
MG KEOGH, after some observations in favour of the
adjournment of the debate, said that, as he. had understood
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in what had fallen from
him at an earlier period of the evening, intended to repudiate
the sentiments which his lion. Friend (Mr. Osborne) had
attributed to him, in order that there might be no mistake on
the subject, he would read to the House the passage in the
Right on. Gentleman's speech to which his Hon. Friend
alluded. The Right Hon. Gentleman was speaking on the
case of Ireland, upon a motion which was brought forward
by the Noble Lord the Member for London (Lord J. Russell).
The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that they had heard a
great deal of Catholic associations, and anti-corn-law leagues,
and political unions; but those things were the consequence
of the people putting the government of the country into the
hands of those who did not know how to wield it; and then,
alluding to the Catholic question, observed—one said it was
a physical question, and another that it was spiritual. Now
it was the absence of an aristocracy, and then the absence of
railroads—it was the Pope one day, the potatoes the next.
But they had a starving population—an absentee aristocracy ;
and what would the stern supporters of the Establishment
say, when the Right Hon. Gentleman added, an alien
church; in addition to the weakest of executives in the
world? Any
one reading of a country in that position, ob-
served the Right Hon. Gentleman, would say at once that
the remedy was revolution. But Ireland, he said, could
not have a revolution, and why? Because it was connected
with another and a more powerful country—her connexien
with England prevented revolution ; and as revolution was
the only remedy, England was placed in the odious posi-
tion of being the cause of all that misery. What, then, he
asked, was the duty of an English Minister? The Right
Hon. Gentleman was then engaged in the duty of hunting
down the man who was then a great English Minister
(Opposition cheers)—and was talking of Parliamentary
middle-men, who bamboozled one party and plundered the
other, and called upon the 'louse to put an end to Parlia-
mentary hypocrisy. Now, if the House still maintained the
inclination to put an end to a Parliamentary hypocrisy, they
would permit him (Mr. Keogh) to put an end to the repre-
sentation that the Hon. and Galiant Member had misrepre-
sented the Right Hon. Gentleman. But he would proceed—
" What was the duty of an English Minister ? To effect by
his policy all those changes which revolution would effect by
force."—(Hear, hear.)
The debate was then adjourned till Wednesday, the 10th
of May.
The Property and Income-tax Bill was further considered
in Committee, and ordered to be read a third time on Friday.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

COURT
CIRCULAR.
Hlghness../ h„ Royt,
Prints Alban
Her Majesty and h'.s Royal
anttigezdneedssbtynoLoprdnohCoslasarolefs
Cla'mitzbrroiyd,a,sev,iseesterday atter•
noon, at her residence in St. Jameinsert, palace.
attended by the
His Royal Highness Prince A_
Marquis of Abcrcorn, Viscountard:
the Hon. Alexander Gordon,
one o'clock, yeetereay
Colonel Francis Seymour, and
le _ dlieiveinitce'nl:l"ct-aCtlanneti
lace at ten minutesßuckingham
,r'it
t ooufn dtahtei o n v
vstone
lace at ten minuteS
se of laying
eet, of the West.
minster
turned to
drive yesterday
mCnntestili hnesses Prince Arthur, and the
before uetd
t°wLs V 0
01
tioe
i:
sco
air 0 :
o'clock.
k- 5.
took t r et he
aot ,
afternoon,
twenty
i e
ther
n oBoen;v fbo buildings
Training
iltdhienl lnstitutionlPa 1?- beforef
ol fa ytgN
Buckinghamat i onl Societyr ttie• .9 a
ai st
ritroiynaaal
open carriage and four. Their Royal
took their usual
morning, in niino of Wales, the Princess Royal, and
Higneases the P
Their Royal ny
aes. 3 r
ses Helena a
3,membersel yesterday, ° f thein Royalth garden afradizte ni ly of Buckingham
Highness Prince Albert rode out on horse-
rethxaeHelaroiotc:ehee.Rero
back yesterday, attended by Lieut.-Colonel Hon. A.
Gordon.
Majesty and his Royal Highness Prince Albert,
with
he
Prince of Wales and Prince Alfred, attended
layjiYeitrseountess Jocelyn, the Honourable 111.ary Seymour,
Lord Pelwarth, Lord Charles Fitzroy, and Lieut.-Colonel
Hon. A.. Gordon, honoured the Royal Italian Opera
with their presence last evening.
Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Rent, attended
by Lady Anna Maria Dawson, Lady Fanny Howard,
and Sir George Couper, honoured her Majesty's Theatre
with her presence last evening.
A deputation, headed by Sir William Gibson Craig,
M.P., Mr. Edward Ellice, M.P., and Mr. Cowan, M.P.,
had an interview with the_Chancellor of the Exchequer
yesterday, at his official residence in Downing-street.
Lord Lyttleton had an interview with the Earl of
Derby yesterday, at his official residence in Downing'
street.
Tho Cambridge University Commission had a meet-
ing yesterday at the official residence of the First Lord
of the Treasury in Downing-street. Present—the Bishos
of Chester, the Dean of Ely, Professor Sedgwinh, a°
the Rev. W. H. Bateson (Secretary).
Lieutenant-Colonel Munday had an interview 7411
Sir John Pakington yesterday at the Colonial•serdceii,
A deputation, headed by Mr. Miles, MP., of
Cardwell, M.P., had an interview with the Chancellor n
the Exchequer yesterday, at his official residence i
Downing-street.

---
DESTRUCTION OP TUE CRYSTALJ.PALACE.---I
sing.
sequence of many thousands of persons in the Unitedt
h Great
dom having been unable to obtain a copy cif ted by the
Exhibition Chart, printed in colours, and P
reaebsucribers and
In COn-
proprietors of the Weekly Dispatch, to their
re-issue has been determined upon,
next, Place on Sunday
the public, in the months of January and Februarysu last, a
to
May 16th. The Chart, which
has
'lumber of persons
revision, shows by simple diagrams
that visited the Exhibition daily,
at the various entrances, the quantityi
sumed ; the names of the Royal C
of the origin of the Palace, And it
order that every individual in the.
statistical reflex of curious and
andi
the demolition of the building,the
enu
of money taken
the amount
frefreshmen con-
take
undergone a careful
in °ssioners ; an account
"ladimensions in feet. In
country may possess this
nteresting results, to mark
to serve as a memento
be delivered gratis to every
of its existence, the Chartwillfthe Dispatch on the day stated.
subscriber and purchaser o
d at four o'clock every Saturday
The Dispatch is publishe_rs. a _way
ii trains leaving London,
morning, in time for the
.in 1 r
Early orders should be given to
and for the morning
Mal
5.0 r country; or to Mr. R. J. Wood,
all newsvenders in town_The news agents will have a copy of
No. 139, Fleet-street.
the Chart with every Dispatch of May 16th.