The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-07 00:00:00

Mr. HUME said the Chlncellor of the Exchequer had
raisiaterpreted what had fall: from him. Ho did not
complain of the Right Hon. Gentleman's inattention, but
of the general inattention of the House at the moment.
Re referred to the noise and crowding of Hon. Members
at the bar, and to the inattention of the officer whose
duty it was to prevent the confusiou. If one Sergeant-
at-Arras was not enough let them have two or three.—
(Cheers and laughter.)
Mr. W. BROWN hoped they might he allowed to
Proceed with the business be';ore them.
Mr. HUME said that on one condition he would not
divide—viz., let all those gentlemen on the floor of the
Rouse at the bar go to dinner.—(Laughter.)
The Hon. Members referred to having withdrawn to
their places,
Mr. HUME said that he would now withdraw his
motion, and he hoped Hon. Gentlemen would be better
conducted.
Mr- EVVA.RT then proceeded to addreso the?C')lni
mittee. contending for the necessity Bill.
question consolicLitinga
all
Militia Acts before proceeding with the present
question was a poor man's question; for the work-
ing man Could not be supposed to understand all the
WAxecrtes
braesfed
re referred to in the or the proviprovisionsvisns which
uupisointetchoensesolidation was effeeteti, they were
q
Acts. He contended, therefore,
ulna thejustified in opposing by every legitimate meatis the pass-
ing of the Bill.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Hume's amendmen; ... 82
Against it ... 165
Majority ... _B3
The amendment was accordingly lost.
Mr. M. GIBSON then moved to insert the words
"deputy-lieutenant" after the word "appointed," in line
20 of this clause. The deputy-lieutenants would have to
decide on claims, to exemption from service in the mi-
litia; they were invested, therefore, with judicial
powers. What he (Mr. Gibson) contended for was
that the choice of persons for the duties of deputy
lieutenant should not be confined to persons having
2001. a year landed estate. The amendment
went to abolish the property qualification for deputy-
lieutenants; and if it were not adopted he (Mr. Gibson)
should move a proviso making individuals with a cer-
tain amount of personal property el'gible to that office.
He should also propose to abolish the property qualifi-
cation as regarded majors in the militia and officers
above that rank, on the ground that he did not see what
landed property had to do with military talent and effi•
ciency._

Sir J.
TYRELL did not understand the repeated at-
tacks of the Manchester gentlemen on the landed in-
terest —(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman was
formerly a landed' proprietor in the county of Suffolk
himself, and ho was now pat forward to prove the pug-
nacity of the lauded interest. He (Sir J. Tvrell) should
feel no jealousy, if the Right Hon. Gentleman made so
many bales of cotton a qualification; and he was willing,
to enter into a treaty of commerce with him on the sub-
ject. But he could not understand why these absurd at-
tacks—he was going to say—were made on the landed
interest, except it was fur the purposes of the hustings.
These motions were neither useful nor advantageous,
and he hoped they would be discontinued.
Sir J. WALSH. said that deputy-lieutenants were not
necessarily part of the militia; he therefore thought the
amendment, wtes not in enter.
Mr. BERNAL decided that it was in order.
Mr. WALPOLE thought the amendment proposed
would not work satisfactorily; he could not, therefore,
consent to it; but he agreed with mush that the Right
lien. Gentleman had said on the subject of the personal
qualification, and he should not object to the proviso, as
regarded officers, if it was fixed at 2001, a year personal
qualification.
Mr. HUME said, it would be better to leave the ap-
pointment of all officers to the discretion of the lord-
lieutenant.
Lord PALMERSTON considered it would be very
essential to the militia service to have one field officer
who had served in the line. He, therefore, thought that
service in the army should be tantamount to a qualifi-
cation.
Mr. WALPOLE said that was already in the Bi.l.
Ms. NE WDEGATE thought it highly inadvisable
that the deputy lieutenants should not be locally ac-
quainted wills the county through residence.
After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT,
sekr• WALPOLE said the lord-lieutenant would have
eee e Power of appointing a military man without any qua-
attication, and also the power of appointing, in case the
gelaended proviso which he (Mr Walpole) suggested
was adopted, individuals possessing personal as v.ell as
real estate of a certain amount.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
qualification should be put upon the same basis as
the Parliamentary qualification.
mUr. PACKS said landed properly generally implied idence
; whereas the possessor of personal property
ght be absent when his services were most needed.
net' LWART said that personal property was recog-
g;' as a qualification in certain counties and cities—
stol and York for instance.
Sir B. COLE BROOKE was of opinion that the ap-
ro)r•sattsants in question should be left entirely to the
a lieutenants of counties.
Sir P. THESIGER said there would be a difficulty in
ease _of the descent of personal property.
After some further discussion,
Colonel SIB I'HORP said, as so much difference of
Pinion existed with respect to the mode of qualification,
elvereetlid be advisable if the Right Hon. Gentleman the
sidertarY
for the Home Department postponed the con-
ration of of that part of the Bill.
entir
al • 111.131 E thought the qualification ought to be left
ely with the lord lieutenant. con ispute on this
whole of nelly showed the neceseity of olidating the
Ili.the statutes on the subject.
meat agreed toGieS°N sa-cl he understood that Govern-
Would the
'would withdraw Principle of his amendments, he
stood
eAT them on that understanding.
T°RNLY- GENERAL said, it must be under-
,. that a different qualification would be required for
under-
different reeks.
The
it was CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
1,,„ esimportant that the deputy lieutenant should
be
~/1.1 al iy cenne
ficeti cted by qualification. At present the qua -
I. on was irrespective of locality. He did not see how
he mould make an exception in the present case.
fere • BRIGHT thought it was unjust to have a dif-
.ha at amount of qualification for different ranks. He
lific ation
Government would abolish the gradation qua-
, and fix the qcation at a moderate sum.
eaTile CHANCELLOttua ot the EXCHEQUER did not
bladder the militia service was a pure military service.
e'te thought that some difference in the
Wag ordualification
aught to be retained. q
SEYMOUR hoped the question of promotion
still reserved by Government. He trusted that pro-
tam would be attainable without specific qualification.
Mr. WALPOLE reel property qualification,
said, whatever was the amount of
ceptpersonal Government would now ac-
he__ qualification. The lord-lieutenant would
ve Power to appoint one officer from the line '
to a
Zihigher post in the militia without reference to qualifica-
tion (we understood).
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 4, after discussion, was agreed to.
On clause 5 being proposed, in answer to an objection
by. Mr. W. WILLIAMS,
• Mr. WALPOLE said it was requisite the Crown
should have the appointment of the sergeants (we un-
derstood.) The militia must be drilled by regular ser-
geants to become effective.
After a few words from Mr. Williams, Colonel Sib-
Mr. '
Sib-
thorp, and Sir C. Burrell,
Y. but wt:isuirdg
GdPin, said that WALPOLE,the sergeants reply to a question put by Colonel
regular army, elents would be taken from the
Wag: back to the army
drilling of the atter the
be taken between the enrol over: A distinction might
the militia. He intended to
enrolment and the embodiment of
that during the time a eush .
move a Proviso to the clause,
embodiment the commanding
officer should have the appointments of
non-com-
missioned officers under him, the
Sir G. GREY was in favour of the Crown
retaining
the power ot appointing the non-commissioned officers.
The more the Crown possoesed such a power the more
efficient would be the force. .
agreed to
The clause was thenthe.
Clause 6was amended,
effect tah4at all officersiggeation of Mr.
'WALPOLE, to theholding
regular militia now
commissions in the should, subject to
might, afterwards be
such regulations as meg made by the
ecretary of State, continue to hold such commiseions
In the militia to be raised. The Right Hon, and
Learn,added,
d Gentleman thathe had stated the na-
ture of the clause and the alteration, in order to
correct an impress.; on that prevailed in the country,
that the old militia officers were to be deprived of their
rants..
seovide tht ex-
; Mr. ROBHOUSE—Does the clau pile._ a
they e may
officersng "shall be" continued, or t.
continued?
continued. A great
Mr. WALPOLE-46 May be" co
nouns' and an
of the officers were now 70
yearse
°PPortunity of retiring would be afforded ef
them.
The clause was then agreed to.
On the next clause, notice on the
Mr. CIIARTERIS said ho had placed a
aner relative to the number of men, and as that notice
had some reference to the clause, he hoped the
Commit-
tee
k would allow him to state the general groundssled agreed
that placed it on the paper. The House seemedt a
great
diversity
some measure of defence was required, bll
real
persity of opinion existed as to what constituted
tiefenee. Having gone into Committee on the present
'4l, they had to consider whether the provisions of
el!
'lsere
It
Such as to render it an effective measure of defenc
.' was essential, in the first place, that they should come
See a clear understanding as to the nature and character
of the danger against which we had to guard ourselves.
"'lt' need hardly remind the House that with respect to a
net
whlghbouring country we were not now in the position in
steam we were at the commencement of the century.
t "mos had undoubtedly facilitated the concentration of
.risaePs and attack, and be believed that in proportion to
'le facility of attack would be its probability. They
Ought, therefore, to consider whether the measure
Would provide a force capable of resisting an invading
army of regular troops, The opinion of most mili-
tary men was that a militia, drilled only for
daystwenty-
one
- in the year, was a force utterly incompetent to
°Pet the attack of regular troops. The Bill proposed
that 80,000 men should be drilled twenty-one days in
each year. But in his opinion it would be better that
they should limit the number of men to 40,000 or 50,000,
and that those men should be more efficiently trained.
tl.Le would, therefore, suggest to his Right Hon. Friend,
`Se Secretary for the home Department., that they
should raise but 40,000 or 50,000 men, and that those
;nen should be drilled fifty-six days in the first year,rie andb
e
tan days in each of the tour following Years' -
heved that under that arrangement they would effect
•
in the five years a saving to the amount of one-third
of
the expense which would be incurred under the-Govern
meat proposal. He wished farther to observe that he
sought they would do well to remove the compulsory
en
Imams from the Bill,-....(gear, htm..)lie hoped 1118