The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-21 00:00:00

THE SUN,

to cause an inquiry to be inside into the conduct of
B?nivet at Kissingen, and the whole matter to be in-
vestizeted.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, he trusted that the state-
ment just made by the Right Honourable Gentleman op-
posite would be the means of relieving the greater por-
tion of the Members of that lion:w frcan censiderable
embarrassment.—(aear, hear.) He thought it impos•
sible to deny that this was a subject upon which this
House had a right to demand an explanation. He could
not agree in the opinion expressed he his Hon. Friend
the Memher for the University of Oxford (Sir R. H.
Inglis). when it appeared to him that he would exclude
this House from any right of itiviry in respect to
matters of this nature.—(Hear. hear.) This House
was a party to the pasing of the Act of Uniformity, and
at that time Protestant Dissenters were members of it,
and he was not q cite sure but Roman Cethelies might
have sat in no.) But at all events, the Act
of Uniformity having been passed by them, this Hausa
had a right to ask whether the persons who were ap-
pointed ministers were faithful members of the
Church of England—(Hear, hear) —or . whether, in
tact, they did not belong to some other Christian com-
munity. hiving thus established their right to matte
such inquiry, he owned he felt the greatest difficulty in
proceeding to exercise it—a difficulty arising both in
respect to the mode in which the inquiry was to be ex-
ercised, and to the consequences to which it might ulti-
mately lead. HP could not hut feel that if a Commission
were appointed, which had no greater powers than were
nom allowed to the Crown, and , hich could not be had
without a special Act of Parliament, they might rather
provoke hostile refusals t ) answer, and metre dissensions
between this branch of the Legislature and a portion of
the clergy of the Church of England.—(Hear, hear.)
He could not but fear, also, lest after such interference
the remedy would be found insufficient. He felt, like-
wise, the want of that assistance which they had in for-
mer times, in the presence of those Members of the
House who ware particularly qualified to give an opinion
upon such a question. They wanted information upon
those points upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed himself in doubt
and hesitation—namely, how far an appeal would lie
from the Bishop of Bath and Wells to the Archbishop
of Canterbury, and how far the law could be brought
to bear in matters of this kind. He must say
that they were, in a great degree, uninformed
upon those points. In respect to what the
Right Honourable Gentleman opposite had last men-
tioned, the circumstances under which the case came
before the Bishop of Bath and Wells were at present
unknown to the House. It might be said by some Hon.
Members that that furnished an additional reason for
inquiry. He concurred in that opinion, but at the same
time he owned he felt the greatest hesitation in proceed-
ing to give a vote in favour of an address to the Crown
for an inquiry that was to begin with the House of Com-
mons. It. as the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last
said, it was a proper sutiject for inquiry, and that there
ought to be a full inquiry made into it, he telt the better
course would be to wait until some of the Ministers of
the Crown were able to ascertain more of the facts, and
to obtain such explanations as they might think tit to
ask for in the most friendly spirit, and not with a view
to anything like accusation and impeachment. It' they
made such inquiry, they would then be in a much better
position to consider in their places in the House of Com-
mons what course, under the circumstances of the case,
they ought to take. He could not but think that it
might be finally the duty of the Ministers of the Crown
—not to make new laws upon the subject—but to pro-
vide for the more essy operation of the laws already in
existence. Those woo were most learned on the sub-
ject had informed him that the points of the
greatest difficulty were in ascertaining what those
means were which should be resorted to for re-
dress. The whole subject being one of transcendent
importance, and fraught with consequences so serious, he
should certainly, for his own part, be inclined to hesitate
before giving a formal vote upon the subject, and as the
case at present. stood he thought it better to leave the
matter in the bands of the Ministers of the Crown to
consider what steps should be taken, and whether any
more facts could be ascertained to be laid before the
House. Until these steps were taken he could not
assent to be a party to an address to the Cro an.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said, a question had been
asked whether subjects of this nature could properly be
brought before the House. Oa one Riot it was evident
that this House alone was the proper tribunal to discuss
such matters; and that was, in asserting the rights of
the laity against the usurpation Of the priesthood. He
was now contending against things, and not against
persons. He cared little whether a man called himself
a Papist or a Protestant—he was against that man who
said that the priests were the Church.—(Hear, bear.)
Whatever might be the lapse of time that had occurred,
the original law was unquestient bly this, and he believed
that the present law now was, that no person could be
appointed over any flock in the Church without that
thick by some means testifying their acquiescence to such
appointment. That was the point they had to maintain,
and unless they maintained that all their motions and
commissions were utterly useless.
Mr. SPOONER thought that the case would be much
worse, and the consequences most serious, if, when they
were told the facts which were then disclosed, they, the
Commons of England, were to say that these facts should
not be entertained by them—they would meet the mo-
tion at once with the previous question.—(Hear.) He
agreed with the Right Hen. Gentleman the Secretary for
the Colonies that the inquiry was one that ought to be
raised, and must be disposed of. But was it disposing of
it to say that be would not entertain it? He said fear-
lessly that that was not the way the country would con-
sent to have such an important question treated. The
turn which the discussion had taken exhibited a tendency
to leave out the main points submitted to them. The
facts of the case, which, according to the statement of
the Hon. Member for Cockermouth, could be easily

proved, were these—that a professed clergyman of
the Church of Eugland, who was dismissed by his
bishop, or . rather whose resignation was obtained upon
certain terms, which conveyed the opinion of the
Bishop of London of his being unfaithful to his.
Church, had been living abroad for several months,
during which time he was ,in the daily, habit of at-
tending the Roman Catholic masses; that that man
was now acting as a Protestant clergyman, baying been
instituted by a Protestant bishop to preside over a Pro-
testant oongregrion.—(Hear.) He asked whetter such
a statement as that made in that House was sufficient to
justify them in voting for the previous questi.in?
for one, could do no such thing; neither could he absent
himself from such a division, as he believed others were
about to do; that was not his habit. His constituents
had a right to know his opinions, and their opinions
should be represented by him in that House. If the
que,tien go to a division, he must vote for the motion
of the Hon. Member for Cockermouth. But it was yet
in the power of the Goverment to take the proper.
course. They had already gone half way—he wished
that they would go the whole way. He wished them to
say that they had made out a strong prima facie case,
into which the House of Commons was billed to inquire;
and they might then ask them to pause in such inquiry.
because they did net think the mode now proposed was
the most effectual one for the purpose of such inquiry—
that they themselves would cuter into an inquiry, and
would recommend the Crown to take immediate steps
for such inquiry, and that they would come to Parlia-
ment for additional powers if they thought it necessary
to do so, in order to remedy that which was a greAt
and a growing evil. That was the course which the
Government ought to take, and not to meet the proposi-
tion by moving the previous question.
Mr. MANGLES said that his Hon. Friend the
Member for Cockermouth did not ask the House to

turn itself into a tribunal for this inquiry, but merely
whiled by his proposition to put the matter in a proper
channel for a full and searching investigation. He
thought that the real weakness of the Church consisted
in the concealment of such facts. In bis opinion, the
strongest point for an inquiry was whether the Bishop
of B Ala and Wells d►d institute Mr. Bennett with the full
knowledge of his recorded unfaithfulness. He would,
however, recommend his Hon. Friend to withdraw his
motion, as they had receiver) a plain, explicit, and un-
mistakeable pled:,e that a bona fide and searching inquiry
would b,4 institute i.

Mr. GLADS I'ONE said that they had heard a long
series of allegations from the Hon. Member for Cocke r-
mouth stated with great ability. It was not, in his
opinion, at that moment fitting that these allegations
should be examined into. He was bound to say, from
a partial knowledge of the case, that he disputed, and
he was ready to confute, many of the allegations
take up.
made by the Hon. Member, and to show that he had not
even correctly quoted the documents to which he re-
ferred.
thatulrt do so, and
This chalieno4 he was ready at that moment to
The aon Member tells him to do so. He
prayer of
inquire,.but that would confine himselt only to one' case
Bishop
ofmoment, The Hon. Gentleman stated that the
Baththe and Wells, in a modest and humble
reload to me petitioners, was asked to consider and
. the haughty prelate of Bath and Wells
Is,
nwn he
tot:Ny:l7l"i published by a Mr. Crutwell, of
his hand a Zu_e!e.e. Now be Oir. Glldaton-) held in
tort' adverse to the appointment of
sir.
rial referred th, distiBtifit"l
utlenaxe, in quoting. the memo-
was not to Coosldpr and ?' stated that the prayer of it
the institution of Xi.. AVlire, but it was, not to grant
whether "to consider andeinunet-t. He wanted to know
as to rt fuse institution to Vis..ii:ture" was the same thing
the Hon. Member in thinking,th.
()nett. Hecencurred with
most serious. It' a man who 1 these allegations were
pretended to be -
of the Church of England was in motion a clergyman
member of the Church of Rome, such a or in heart a
condign puniahaaPnt. However inexpedimenT iletterved
make that House the scene of theoisg "
iota discussion,wto
this was still a question which could scarcely bea
eluded trom their cansideratiobn.
.He, however, rose for
the purpose of declaring his
.o
.i , , c t
that
3n t o all vague or in-
definite pledges. It was right they should know
what the is,ue of these prGctedingq was to be. Nothing
would induce him to agree to a motion cslling upon tta
Crown to do in a formal winner what he knew it would
the same time. he
fail in if it attempted to do it. But, at n
was
raise
admitted that a most serious cilestinjd 4 _
namely, whether the Bishop of Bath a of Wells,
in -Fropeoe,ro
ceeling to institute Mr. ifainett to the living
had acted according to the letter and spirit of the law.
As that was the question, of course the whole cauluct
.
en,
of Mr. Bennett was relevant to that. It appeared, th
to him, that the Government, instead of agreeing to an
address to the Crown, must, in a friendly spirit, make
such an investigation into the facts as would enable them
to judge what further steps should be taken in the
matter. He for one had for a leng time felt that the
ecclesiastical law was in a most defrotive and imperfect
condition in respect to a case which, though a .rare one,
was yet a possible case—namely, that in which it might
be necessary to put the law in motion against a Bishop
for the purpose of tying him up to his duty. He hilly
isoneurr, d in, the sugges ion of the Noble Lord the
Menaher far London.
Mr. WALPOLE said it was to bdeprecated
e the
wisk*Ati jipsto of Cogillang UN Will for cliovuosiDg
.

LONDON,

theological subjects if it were at all possible to avoid it.
He, however, concurred with the Right Hon. Gentleman
who hed jest eat down, that a case had been ma-`e out
which not only invited but dsmanded inquiry.--(II-er,
hear.) For if any minister be instituted into a benefice
of the Church while he was iu fact, or was likely to be,
a member of some other Christian communion, it was
state of things which ought not to be allowed. And if
the law be not strong enough to prevent such an abuse,
it ought to be made strong enough —(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member for Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) said, by
moving the previous question - they were shelving the
main proposition; that was not the nese. By the course
they were vatting they were simply saying that the
question should not now be put. f his was an important
consideratien in reference to the motion before the House..
Let him cell the Hon. Merabet'a . attention to the facts
connected with it. A motion stood on the notice-book
for a fortnight or more, by. whick,it was intimated that
the Hone Member for Coekerinouth was going to call
attention to the institution- of Mr. Bennett to the
vicarage of Frome. Now, until ,yesterday. tna House
was not aware of the precise intention of the Honour-,
able Member for Cockermouth.—(Hear, hear) So
little was be (Hr. Walpole) aware of teem, thet he asked
the question of many of his own friends, and they were
utterly unconscious the motion of the Hon: Gentleman
was about to take the turn it assumed in consequence of
the notice given by him last night. He mentioaed these
facts in common fairness and justice to those parties who
were implicated by the speech addressed that evening by
the lien. Member to that House, to show that they
ought to be allowed a Proper opportunity of explaining
the facts and circumstances of the case as far as they
related to them. He referred to the Bishop of London,
the Bishop of Bath and Wells, and the patron of the
living. Under these circumstances. he asked if the move.
ing of the previous question_wes not the proper course
to take. He would follow it up by saying, that in con-
sequence of the observations of his Noble Friend oppo-
site, supported as they were by the Right Henourable
Gay leman the Member for -the University of Oxford,
that the Government would in a friendly spirit institute
such an inquiry as was suggested in reference to the
institution of Mr. Bennett to the living of Frome, tied
particularly in reference to the question whether the
law could be made to meet the evil of which they so
generally complained.—(Bear. hear.) More than that
he hardly thought the Government could be called
upon to undertake. The • House , might call, upon them
to do that, and the Government. would be prepared to
obey that cal.l.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that this was
the proper way of proceeding, in order that full.justiee
to all parties might be done, and not by an address to
the Crown, founded upon what was after all uncertain
information. In order, then, that the question might
be simply and satisfactorily investigated, the Govern-
ment were anxious to carry out the iequiry.iu the spirit,
suggested by the Noble Lord, if they were permitted to
do so —(Heir. hear.)
Lord R. GROSVENOR said that but for the promise
which had been made by the 13,,ght,Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Walpole) on behalf of the G«.veroment, he should
have felt it to be his dte y to vote fir the motion of the
Hon. Member for Coekermouth (Mr. Horsman).; but
after the promise had be« n made that the stabjedt which
had to-night been brought before the House should be
thoroughly investigated, and in a friendly manner, by
the Government, and that they would then come forward
and state whether or not it was. desirable that the law
should be altered, he trusted- the Hon. Member would
not press his motion to a division.
Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the opinions of those lion.
Members who agreed with his Hon. Colleague in think-
ing that an inquiry was demanded in this matter, which
was one certainly of great importance to the nation,
would be shown to the public by a division upon the
subject. He could not concur with the Nohle,Lerd who
spoke last, when he said .he was satisfied wit , the speech
of the flume Secretary—(Hear, hear.) Fer his part, he
should like to know, first, when the inquiry was to be
made, by whom it was to be made, and when the House
would have an opportunity of considering and deciding

upona_ the report of such an inquiry. So far from being
satisfied, then, his previous dissatisfaction was only in-
creased by the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
From the Chancellor of the.Exahequer he heard not a
twraord ryiabth‘e)ußcitghhetcHonucne.sGsioen ,f
n;le nm4anisTid.iitr O
Cho
House
the
se .n
of
cc,oro•-
mons .was not a fit place for i heological controversy, and
that it was inconvenient to discuss these caleitieue there.
True, it was not the place for theologies! controversy;
but, in his opinion, it was the place of all others in which
an appeal ought to be made for an inquiry; and he thought
the House would not be doing its duty to the country if
it did not express its wish and determination that an in-
quiry should be made —(Cheers.) He hoped, there-
fore, that his Hon. Colleague wield divide,—(Cheers.)
Me HORSMA.N (in reply) said he had not the
smallest difficulty in deciding as to the course which it
was his duty to pursue, though he had certainly some.
difficulty in reconciling the various reasons which bad
b •en urged upon him for adopting a different course.—
(Hear, hear.) Before noticing them, however, he must
be permitted to say one word with regerd to the extra-
ordinary attack, he might call it, weich had been made
against him by the Right Hon. Member for the Univer-
sity of Oxford (Hr. Gladstone). That Right Hon.
Gentleman set out by observing that, at the proper time,
he would be prepared to impugn and disprove some of
his (Mr. Horeman's) most important statements. Now,
considering that these statements had been made in the
presence of the assembled House of Commons, he
thought the proper time for confuting them was the time
at, which they were made, and that the proper company
in which to confute them was the comp any in which
they were made.—(Cheers.) But the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman did not think it a convenient time, and wished
to postpone his coufutation to a more appropriate
season.—(H,ar.) He (Mr. Horsman) invited the Right
Honourable Gentleman to confute his statements. 01
said the Right Hon. Gentleman, "I will do so now ;"
and he thereupon proceeded to . notice one of those
statements, but left all the others untouched. In en-
deavouring to show, however. how capable he (Mr.
Horsman) was of misquoting, the Right Hon. Geutie-
man was himself guilty of ODO of the grosseseanatquota-
dons he had ever heard inthaßtiglhlotuunseo.—.
u nem
house.--(Nu.), liane
would prove it —(Cheers.) 'The
acid that he (Mr. Horsman) bad stated that the me-
morialists called upon the Bishop of Bath and. Wells to
institute an inquiry, and that to that petition he pee
the answer which he (Ur. Horsman) bad characterised,
as a haughty answer—an answer which breathed the
spirit of Laud.—(Cheers.) Now it so happened that he
did not apply these expteysions to the answer which
was returned to the memorial. bat to the answer which
was returned to the second letter addressed to the ,
Bishop of Bath and Wells. He had stated that that see'
oond letter of the Bishop well deserved to be chatac._
tensed as he (Mr. Elorsrnats) hai characterised it. That.,
letter was an answer to a meek and reasonable request
to give the parties 14 days more delay, and it; was that
answer which he had designated as haughty, and es
breathing the spirit of Loud.—(Cheers.) He aked then,
whether the Right Honourable Gentleman had not mane
a charge which he himself must feel was totally On-
becoming his position in that House?—(Cheers.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman
,seid theahe (Mr Horsman) must
be aware that he had not honestly quoted the documents
which he had brought before the House. What was the
meaning of that? Did ho mean that, holding a document
in his hand, he (Mr, Hotamian) had falsified its reading
to the llouseethe Right Hon. Gentleman having a eouu-
terpart of that document in his own hand at the time,
and being fortunately able to detect it?—(Cheers.) Was
that the Right Hon. Gentleman's meaning?' But he
would not pursue the subject further. 119 would leave.
it to the Right inn. Gentleman and the house to sat,
whether, for the statement he had made, he deseraad an
sccueatioe which he should be ashamed to make against
the Right Hon. Gentleman or any other Member of that
Houss.—(Cheers.) Of the mintier in which his motion
had been treated by other Hon. Gentlemen who lead
taken part in the debate he bad not the smallest dis-
position to complain. He must admit, as the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had observed, that the motion was .
an embarrassing one. It was equally true that every-
thing einflected with those questions which respected
the Established Church, and which so much agitated
the country, was most embarrassing. But what was
that Church of England of which they had been speak-
ing ? Was it not a Church that had been established
by Act of Parliament ? Did it not rest upon an Act of
Parliament ? Did not its ministers receive their privi-
leges and pay under an Act of Parliament ? And if the
Parliament of England had established a church, with a
staff of ministers for the propagation of a particular
faith, and the teaching of certain doctrines, and it it
were alleged that the men who were the agents-and
servants of that church used their priviliges and their
powet to teach very
_different doctrines, then he wanted
to know whether the Parliament, which bad establivheci
that Church for certain purposes, was not in reality
the very tribunal to consider whether those purposes
bad been - answered or not ?—(Cheers.) The Right
Hon.' Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said
that the motion was very vague and indefinite
the
in its character. Of coarse he <Mr. Horsman) was
quite prepared; in bringing forward an ecclesiastical
question for the consideration of the House of Com-
mons, to find it met as a question of great difficulty,
delicacy, and embarrassment. He knew well. that the
first ground which would be taken'vvas the technicality
of his motion. He knew that if he had proposed ta Com-
mission it would have been objected to, and that the very
fact of its being a definite course would have laid it open
to difficulty. What did be do then? He prOposed
merely that her Majesty, as head of the Church, should
be petitioned by this House graciously to • institute an
inquiry—that .inquiry being, of °Ours-, carried on in the
manner which had been euggested on that (the Opp'oai-
to
for
stihdo ref the House, upon the advice, and under the
giir
T:epihsert;vio
cioniqon:i responsibilityrubiit :I:tas.e t
Baoaurvireiahtte
hear.)
. ) direction,H e
proposedo f the • Ministers sttheer ofsil() u s
ethe
ro*vn.......(Flear, hear.) He proposed that the Hkiusa of
Commons should 'address her Majesty for an inqairy;
but he left the mode_ of inquiry expressly open to the
Government, It was not for him to suggest, nor wee
tuse to dictate to them, what should be the
advicette r lf
mode
. airiscretiovvitie.rfn(Ce
411 try they agreed 'to an" in
wouldtohid
kabve
'it
fn" their`
_0 what t"
mpanuodrspttohesr:lyleal.:::::d Crown to institute that
a mit;nanneri 'haiss,titt.l,ly,ii mexigpthetsoydeatz
stituted the tuqd'ye..:: blite.eihts.e.)i'erif fMulilreiLtipeorsweiires
but it must not' h e it in their hands,
i'hhfeersyiee.
wnda,,lnyftreiidnegitoujilsyrtyi:i...4o3lquiqueeepsatett)ll:wlrotere.
_.l:Se(en,terk:e,tiiyar:rywtecirimweihnat
setra
e notnarfoot 0
ma
m"iftrtei eentdol ysitin.
upon it: . end get a Parlia-
wanted was a judicial inquiry.it The inquiry -h
to demand a judicial inquiry, sad
mega will?verl.l7
leave the Matter in their handi,. Nothing ei... mg te
....1 satilfa6.l._,_ .... ~0 than meat
-
ment instituted such an incpiry, he way
jUdicialinquiry would u • wrYt aspeeateek alter
the arfiniiieion Of - the Government' that 'the' ejeastii..„
ought not to be suffered 'to Teat where it was that it
$o wo isiptutat 19 be lefo time. Vutlet, tiicio yip:
• . ~.. ... _ . .. ..,.. - •
. , ... „... _ ..... . _ provided
ieldde toh hear.)
0,:d6 o
awrai
sotl
eott:

1 cumstances he did not think he should be doing his duty
if ho consented to withdraw _ the motion.—(Cbeerse)
He had brought it forwerd with a specific purpose,
h cause he. telt that the .evil was-growing and ought to
' be met ; and heving,doee this. he should certainly press
it to is division.—(Loud cheers,) . , • -
Mr. GLADS.CONE was sure the House would feel
that, after what had fallen from .the Hon. Gentlemen,
some explanation was necessary on his part.—(Hear.)
The Hore.Gentleman had stated that he (lrealadstotte)
bad charged him with not having quoted." honestly". a
document to which he had referred in the course of het,
speech. Now his (111 r. Gladstone's) memory might err.
like that of others; but his recollection was strong that
he had never used swab an offensive or improper word.
. - , . - - - ' • '
--s(Elear, hear.) If he had used it, ,- he would be the
first to ap .logise for having doneetio; but he had .not
used the word " honestly," and he - had merely charged-
the Right lion.,Gentlemun,with not having quoted cor-
rectly.t-(Hear; hear..) .
•The. GHINCELLOR ofetthe, EXCHEQUER ex- •
.eleined,.thtw Are H.:ire:nen had very. Entice. mistaken
What he had uddressed to Owl-louses ,He (the,Chae•
eullor of thnExchtpter) hid never denied for one me-.
meat the grave -imeortence vof the subject which the
1-n,brought forward. in feet he had
stated
was impossible to exaggerate its import-
ance.—(Hear, hear.) the observutious . were addressed
to this-that he did not see that the propoaition which
e that it Gentleman
had
the Hon, ;--Gentleman had made would meet . the
, difficulties with ;which they had to contend; , that the
circumstances on which he had dilated were very im-
perfectly known to H ei.
Members of that House;
and, listening with great attention ,to the Honourtae.
Gentlemae's statement, he acknowledged at once it,.
vest importance, at the same time that he said it did not
appear to him that the propositioir of the Hon. Gent's-
man was one which would meet the difficulty; but he
had no, wish, whatever to cone,y -
to the House the im-
pression that he did not hiuneelt feel the absolute neces-
sity of inquiry. :When the Bore Gentleman said that a
" friendly inquiry" bad beet) offered, but that he re-
quired a " judicial inquiry,. he (the Chancellor of the
felt when he first rose, and which he still continued to
feel, was that he did noteee-eo, at present advised a
Exchequer) must tell tom that the difficulty which he
judicial inquiry coulclsbe instituted. He would not talk
of a friendly inquiry, but certainly
he could nut promise
a judicial inquiry. All.. he could say was that there
should be a bona- fide inquiry; and, under the circum-
stances of the case, he thought that was all the Hon.
Gent Majesty's
Gentleman- ought to ask her Government to
do.—(Hear.) The subject brought before the House—
important .as it waS*evils surrounded. with difficulties.
shouldk i o
hon. the
a bonii fide inquiry into the grave.cir-
part of the Government that
-the
No person %mkt oentend that there were means of insti-
tutihg a judicial inquiry as et present advised, and be
could onlys
curnstanees alleged.--(hear.)
The House divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Horsman's motion...
... 80
.
Against it ... -- ••• .... 100 •
Copies
between the Go-
Meierity against the motion ... —2or
FOREIGN REFUGEE& • ,
Lord DUDLEY STUART, put suant to notice rose
,
Pies or extracts of
ltey, and other foreign
Hungarian wed other refit-
gees detained at Ktutayah, from the date .of the last.
dispatch on this subject, a copy of which has been laid
Governments,vatoenrl'nmcommunications makeetheof t°hlli'sjwincountry
which
respecting motion:—
iahnebdall7Teunnp: i
before this House up-to the present time (in continuation
of papers already presented to Parliament). ,
i L would
be in the recollection of the House that very early in
1850 he drew their attention to the events... which had
taken place in Hungary and Turkeyeend particularly to
the demand made, as he thought most
Oujustifia,bly,.by
the Governments of. Austria and Russia upon the Sultan
for the surrender of certain retueeesewhos after havute
taken part in the struggle which had then recently . pre-
agreed to lay on the
- different Govern-
it rindependence
from°f 'lt
hot ief 1..
kd: lei: Hungary,atch e s
n'
ps afterel befores taYt
in
g thoselhhi The
soughthV:idledtor tahne. asylumlhet.t y ina and
de
terr
Noble Lord the Member for Tired()
table
eionof onthothtileontsreanasascettio"ouotiso,n ,
mwheincths. hAad
vepryassceodasbideetwraabelne-iiimb.oeseela
papers were forthcoming, and was not until 1851, after
had been shut up in
he had remintledais Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) of
, .
came down to
his
si
.e-t d promise,tben that
tchne . Pehrnehatisanblelswol.u.idfilislepdalnhElesi,B one of
which releted to the refugees who
Turkey, ' His present motion only contemplated a con-
tinuation of these diapers:hese-All that. he asked was,tisai.
inasmuch as this. correspondence only
. April, 1850, that they should have other papers laid on
tee table which would bring down the correspondence to
the time of the hberation of those refugees on the Ist o;
September last. The Noble Lord at the head of the late
the table of the House they would prove that the British
Government had said, that if these pspeyi were laid oh
Government had in reality done that which the Ameri-
can Government claimed to have done, I).4meit'i to have
effected the liberation of the captives of Kiutayah. Tin-
present Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he (Lord D.
Stuart) applied to him on this subject, very obligingly
said he could not think there would be any objection u,
the production of them, papers, but that be .must
consult the Foreign office befOre he could consent
;
to their production. He (Lord D. Stuart) had since
learnnigh regcet that, the Eight
Honourable Gentle.
man would feel it . his duty to oppose this motion. Ho
was at a loss to know on what grounds such a motion
could be resisted. It was well known that when the re-
fugses from Hungary sought shelter in Turkey, the Go-
vernments of Austria and Russia addressed to the Sul-
tan a demand at which the feelings of all Europe re-
volted, that these refugees.ahould be delivered up to Lb,
vengeance of. those Governments; and if the British
Government had been so instrumental,. as was repre-
sented, in procuring the liberation of the captives, that
of itself eas a sufficient reason why the dispatches in
question should be laid on the table of the House. Eta
was very glad that England and. the United States were
united in the liberation of Kossuth and the other refu-
gees; anti, he did not at, all, want to detract from the
merits of the I.Teitect'Srateeen what they.' hid done; but
his belief that the Miseissippi might have remained
at tbe,rjardaneil,reseetations made ,upen.the subject by
es till' his time if it had not been for
the energetic rep
the 4rifimh Government..Government..lf the papers he asked for
were granted, this fact would be established—if they
were
.withheld the HAIN, anti the country -would have a
right to complain that they did not receiie the information
to which they were entitled.- The papers ought to, be
given
ior
Tifvoer t r
tohne
;aodw justificationniie ho theef
did
not NobleWe
nLto
to
h
od timeolln
teempbeer.t
sonalSmotives in the attempt to Withhold.the papers, he
must saytherti did appear to be soinething like a want
'of generosity to the. late Governinent in now withhold!.
log therne The. only reason that could be given for
withholding them was, that it might be unpleasant to,the
Governmeuts of Austria. and of •Russia to have it shown
that the representattens of the British ambasstidor at
Constantinople were attended with mere- weight than
theirs were; and further, that, these papera might ele
great vecillation on the 'part of the Porte as to the
.. -
sit these pspers, and therefore.
lwitecretttautioetneoff
weight
'aihetintguefseac;iouttutt'oE.,
jeutslatibiyughtlitethweieteithreoalosolongs
lution of which he had given /mice.
Mr. HUME seconded, be motion, on the ground' that
the people of this country had taken a great interest in
this question, and had held tneetings on the subject from
countryo
nt o
behalfthe oilihe;:hel;el3iingrivrcug4hete.hese. r.
eGns °o
e-
der to show that. be confidenco of the pdoele had' hot
onevthe ornuegbedit it
tht°he re interferee
f, the . papers
been misplaced, but, hats the
.Governmeet had exerted
ought to be given, in or-
themselves to parry_Out the wishes ofehe peOple. „'
Lord PALNERtiTON743 ISara nsuah concernea in
the correspondence to which -
MY Noble ,Friend haseal-
ma3t be Permitted. to take the earliest
question lads been put to state that,
So far us I am cencerned, arid
a fact Itiowu to ell the world that
Ihelieve I may say also
I was then a member, that
tfix:ouPedroPtbh°;:hrae'etvupFeG::rnirio'h:Yv. 1
lartd!o.9nrbtmjeirexen,ntt:hiit
soeonf : wt
to
ige lir a n . : _ g
"n the motion of my
these refuges-were detained in Turkey for a considerable
portion of titne, against the' "natural wishei of the
Turkish Goverement, but in deference to the apprehen-
sions and the wishesof _the Government of Austria. I
am not here to blame or to find 'fatilt with the Govern-
"lintle they entertained with
persons.-.- (gear.) .(---eilre) They did entertain a
feeling of alarm, which was no doubt sincere; .btieit Was
the opinion of- her Majestra GovernMent that Austria
had no right to dictate to . the Porte in what manner the
Offence against Turkey,
no offence
to set those refugees
regardas entoftoAtu43etsreia for the
Sultan should exercise the rights of hospitality towards
my intervention
and 'by the exertions of her ler ;
--sst sty's ambassador et
fapineetrdes.t°hnasTt who
owß
bailaristis'bcentitled,ul'n'ltitiie Government did,
constantly urge upon the
Turkey' and her
Porte to give way to its own inclinations, and. o permit
these refugees to leave Turkey... of _
Constantinople, repeatedly and
course, everybody
feln ighbour will at once see that, with every dis-
positionpower .- e relative strength of
upon the generous feelings of the Sultan,
onsiderati -
there were,nevertheless e
h. t?". °F. prudence and
policy which ifiteriered withis. free choice in a matter
of this ..kinci, and it ,became to. therefore important' for
Turkey that it should'be obi ;
ot tbao (ge in support of the
Wishes of its own .Government ,ttoireney of a foreign
Government 'westing
e uPon in what d
do that which they,
felt to be just and proper. . ,
.egree the Ameris
.contributed to Produce this result,
can Government &else it toter ' - I
am not able to state. No. . - .
~etied its influence
"same pup ,which we
to accomplish the p.,rc 0
will laboured to
achieve, but the correspotid • e
' That is . w what was done
' h lacivernment. all.whtch the House
by the Bettis
..
I hate only the ' ' -
is concerned to know.. - e
.r to say, that
' dion 'of the VaPera— foreo
the dispatches
by a caieful seise . the
~ tie ,___,. , _
' ffice an°,- "P'tes from her' Ma
from the Foreign;-office, '
I b seep whet vir ' - jesty's ambissacioreeit wil . es _ .
..t„
su era thn effort
of the British Government., tleltown,hie, eteeea attend&
those off tido, ',without eontaid,.!sli sit'",gr 4 b
~ to the" would be
off +naive to the feelings or al.
; e '.f. Auntie or` aisio.piniotis of
the Governments* either 0
,o(o,37,x,,,bieltpri4d.i
.1114.11
"there fore support the motion I ee..EiCCHEQU.
The CHANCELLOR of
tiort hits Ste ett ER e-The
'Noble Lord,who, wade thissenct ie. ' 'eery truly
- a kries cq pupara heti° been
`that- I. held the opinion, ,
Itcdscil with regttrctio g
placed On the_ tab4l, of the . 4.11;., .i.
__ . a nnni.,
onaeLcv,t -i "".t. wee upon the
plettAeltplomatic eOrresp .
.ei .4.64
oorresiie
rd _ ,
;whole desirsble that the u
B'%...ie;'fiiiii7seqqet 'oce'''ellee
should be given,, but that. 04 kniring at the paosion I
'told the N.Aile'Lerdthist;' after7 " Whether. that would be
'Office, I had reassed,o; dou,htie
the Noble Lordiiha e Ile'
-prudent course,
,"1" can ai.ll ,
, n lroin ally desire' t that
-
did net arrive Cr that entictuste d .
c. . _ e 0 e_
..ee.ssors--(Hear, heel. r
trace fremethe merits- of our pre ,
's is well knovin' t *--
' The fact is,' there had heell.• .aeiietehi, on the a great
deaf of acrimonious feeling .
latch-Were mixed Subject..
'''
between the ;variotie. Courts.
Iv- e- feelings of 'a ii- in
this question. Happily, all tiles
nod undertit. acrimony '
ate now itteYeti. Thero,il ticiir f,g,
bitweeti th'l7l‘ inglkls
there has, been for,sontetirna:peet;edit
Wit , e Courts
of Constantinople 'mid of litrielitta, fr.'
s Id bte appreireisded
wou e ettelethut ' thin.
by us thet,ilp es the vsholeeit tau hi In - •
11,3§Qf gOiregEktudeute, which AI ~ A th pemiftg