The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-11 00:00:00

act of the Chamberlain was a breach of privilege,' Sir, I certainly did not expect ever to hear the claims of
but ho would make inquiries into the matter.—(flear, ! this constituency derided by Liberal Members.—(Hear,
hear.) It certainly was for the convenience of hear.) Her Majesty's Govern .meut propose to raceme
Members that the stand should be restored, and he would mend to the House that two of those seats shall be ap-
see if some arrangement could not he made which should pertioned to the West Riding of Yorkshire.—(Cheers.)
be agreeable to all parties. The constituency of the West Riding of Yorkshire is, as
-MINIE RIFLE. lion. Gentlemen are aware, about 37,000. Generally
In reply to Mr. W. 0. STANLEY, speaking, the representation of the county has been, as
Colonel DUNNE said the Minio rifle had not clearly far as the great material interests are concerned, neu-
been proved to be the best; its advantage consisted in the tralised, in the opinions of its Members, in this House.
amount of ammunition it required, and the Master of The agricultural or manufacturing interests have gene-
the. Ordnance had directed some experiments to be rally sent Members into the House of Commons ot such
made with it.—(Hear.) The order which bad been opposite political opinions in reference to these great in-
given for a quantity to a Birmingham house was authe- terests, that they have sustained a nicely-balanced power
rised by the late Government, and not by her Majesty's upon the important subjects connected with these inte-
present advisers.—(Hear.) rests.—(Hear.) But on remarkable occasions, when po-
PAYMASTER'i ANT) PURSERS. pular feeling has been much excited, that has happened
Sir GEORGE PECHELL wished to inquire of the which has generally happened under such circumstances
Secretary of the Admiralty what progress has been made —namely, although the parties in this great district are
towards the arrangement for a new mode of keeping nicely balanced, popular opinion has just given the decid-
the accounts of the paymasters and pursers, and whether ing impulse to the election, and two Members ot the
the report of the Committee would be laid before the same opinion have been sent here as representatives,
House. as in 1811, for example; and a moiety of this
Mr. STAFFORD said the report had been received, great constituency has been practically disfranchised.
and the practice recommended would be speedily adopted. —(Hear, hear.) Sir, under these circumstances, it the
There would be no objection to lay the report upon the two Members were to be given without providing for
table.—(flear.) these difficulties, it is very probable that the same result
BOARD OF HEALTH. would frequently occur under similar circumstances, and
Mr. VIVIAN wished to ask the Commissioner of you would have four Members returned fir the county
Works whether her Majesty') Government had in pre- by a similar casting majority, and of the same opinions
paration any measure for empowering local boards of as those returned in 1841. You have had two lalembers
health to provide means of burial in their districts where in the House profesaing Conservative opinions, who have
the existing burial accommodation was insufficient; and been returned by a small majority. Fur instance, the
whether they had any intention of introiucing any mea- constituency being 37,000, I think the two Conservative
sure for that purpose? Members elected in 1841 were returned by a majority
Lord JOHN MANNERS said a Bill was in prepare- barely exceeding 1,000. Under such circumstances her
tion, but there was little chance of legislating on the Majesty's Government think the best curse to recoua-
subject this session, mend is that the West Riding of Yorkshire should be di-
BETTING LISTS. vided.—(Hear, hear.) And if the House will permit
Mr. STANFORD wished to ts,le the Secretary for me to lay before them the reasons which have induced
the Home Department if his attention had been drawn to us to recommend that course, and the method by which
the rapid increase of a species of low gambling houses in we propose to carry out this division in order to effect
all parts of the metropolis, styled "betting houses," with that object, I will at once proceed to do so.—(Hear,
a view to any legislative remedy ? hear.) Sir, when we had arrived at this conclusion of
Mr. WALPOLE said his attention had been called recommending to the House the division of the West
to the subject, but ho was not prepared to state yet Riding of Yorkshire into two, e:leh of which can be
whether Government was disposed to interfere in the represented by two Members, we naturally supposed
matter.—(Hear. hear.) that that division could be effected by availing our-
THE UNIVERSITY COMMISSION. selves of what I may call the natural and leading

Lord J. RUSSELL wished to know when the report
of the University Commission would be laid on the
table?

divisions of the hundreds, or as they are called in
the West Riding, the wapentakes. There are ten wspen"
takes, and by a division of these we naturally think that

Mr. WALPOLE said it was in the hands of the prin-
ter, and it would be kid bafore the House immediately.
ASSIGNMENT OF THE FORFEITED SEATS OF
ST. ALBANS AND SUDBURY.
The orders of the day having been gone through pro
forma,

our o►,ject can be effected. Bat when we examine the
divisions of them we find that they present difficulties
that are insurmountable. For example, one wapentuke
or hundred oat of the ten possesses at this moment more
than one-third of the whole consti:nency. It was, there-
fore, found impossible that we could recommend such

division. There are other reasons to prevent such tt
division, which at the present moment I do not thinls it
necessary to trouble the House by detailing. We find
it impossible under such circumstances to effect a proper
division by availing ourselves of the natural districts of
the county. That being the case, we thought the diffi-
culties might be overcome by establishing a division of
the west siding by means of the polling-places. But 0
it is in the power of the justices in their court of quarter
sessions to change these districts at their will, the House
will see that we are again baffled in effecting such all
arrangement, for a division of this character would not
afford us any permanent boundary. We, therefore+
think it impossible to effect our object by the
present system of Electoral divisions. A suggest(
es°
has, however, been made to us to meet the dim"
culty; it is one which I observe has transpired---
Ido not regret it; but it has led to some of the most
unfounded and ludicrous representations that have ever
been circulated. It was represented to us that the
county megistrates of the West Riding, for county Pu,"
p ,ses, at this very time and for some period back, fit:lw
ing the necessity of dividing the West Riding, have con-
structed a division of the riding; and we were recom-
mended to consider that division. It appears that they
have not yet formally adopted this arrangement, buC
they have frequently discussed it amongst themselves,
and it has been received with great favour by gentlemen
of different opinions in the county. I have this plan nor/
before me. It proposes to take the simple and intent
gible boundary of the Midland Railway, which I thin"
I can show to the House is one entitled to their eonsi-
deration.—(Cheers.) The Midland Railway would enter
the West Riding from the county of Derby, it would then
lead to Skipton; then turning towards Cole, it proceeds
until it meets the town of Manchester. This division
would thus effect the constituency. All that part of the
country lying south and west of the line, we shall pro:
pose to call the southern division of the county; and all
that part lying north and east, we propose to call the
northern division of the west riding. Wherever a towns
ship intersects this line, we propose that it shall
belong to the northern division, in order that no such
township should be divided or overlooked in this ar-
rangement. The effect of the constituency in each Of
these divisions as to numbers will then be this—the con-
stituency of the northern division will amount to 17,965.
and that of the southern division 18,785.—(Cheerink)
Now I have considered, with some attention, a criticism
that has met my eye, and which, I confess, in the liVe_l;
ness of its remarks, reminded me of some observe:lm
which I have heard elsewhere. I find the great genus
brought against this project is founded upon tbisobjeetion
—that the northern division we have thus merited Oot
composed of an agricultural constituency. Now, °°un
say for myself—and I offer this as a remark rather tha
as an argument—if the 17,000 or 18,000 of the consti-
tuency in this division be composed of persons most in:
tern sted in agriculture, I see no reason why they should
not be represented in this House as well as any other
constituency within the kingdom.—(Hear, bear.) NO
more, I cannot understand why an objection should be
made to 17,900 persons forming a constituency in this
northern division being represented by a person con'
connected with the agricultural interest, any more than
the 18,900 in the southern division being represented by
a person intimately connected with manufacture. I really
think that 17,000 or 18,000 independent electors in rh,e
county have a right to choose those Members they shill
most entitled to their confidence.—(Hear, hear.) 1311 f
it should be observed if the division have the effect i'9,„
making one portion of the West Riding almost Plirevile
agricultural—it that were true, in the same way
leave the other division, the southern division,
entiroeij
manufacturing; and therefore it might be equally
g be
ues-
jected to us that we take a contracted view of this
Lion in reference to this latter division, for it lipig" for
said that by such an arrangement the Hon. Tel toe
the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) will be its repress bat
tive for life, for we are giving him a constituency
that
is entirely devoted to him—(Hear. hear)—in I.ll°t' ee
the Hon. Member for the West Riding will
presentative of a constituency in which no element of_
opposition exists.—(Hear, hear.) Well, if the resu_esf
this arrangement be that the Hon. Member for the W
Riding shall have a permanent seat in this House. ,I
be the re'
cannot say that I shall regret it. I confess that I show"
be sorry to see him absent from this House. Where
a man has the power of influencing public opinion it
is, in my mind, much better that be should be resPon:
sible for his conduct in an assembly like this than that
he should exercise his great talents in other scenes, To
dependently of his responsibility as a Member of t"
British House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) In the Ina(
of the county magistrates which expresses their plan....
perceive that the division therein marked out is made
connexion with a simple and intelligible line of refloat'
although a manufacturing town. 7
by which Leeds, 0
throwinto the northern division. We propose to foe,
low that intelligible line of railway, and to leave Lee':
in its natural position—the northern division. Such
en;
division may, no doubt, prevent Leeds exercising its due
authority in connexion with the interests of the southern
division. The southern division is entirely Inelititaileac'
i turing; it, therefore, wants no assistance whatever re—
Leeds, and by allowing it to remain in the nortberd
division we shall be promoting the enterprise 811.
energy of a great manufacturing town working to
northern
as i t ough
division
itvoi s
iboen,
large agricultural district. We propose that Leeds'
as ewleectisohnal
to Wakefield, its former the election tog°
rive, to be
for the southern division.--(Hear, hear.) I mentiosl
11
these details because I wish to show that we have real .
no selfish nor sinister design in making this recomeeeil.i
dation.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, we thought it but respect;
to Parliament and the country that we should exerli?ged
florleatho
into and consider well all the plans that could bed
ert;go
to effect the object which we have in view. We 1190 essi"
it due to this House to bring forward our plan s, e for
tuned that we could confidently recommend that Pus to
your adoption which we consider more advantege°,,oes-
the community at large. But this, after all, is Besi,hall
tion for the Committee of this House. Although and
endeavour to support the views of the Government' en
although I shall be prepared to express to the 1-I"us 'end
another occasion, the minute details of this Plsens'r the
all those reasons which I think can be urged we
adoption of this line of demarcation—(Hear)osneettr,
have no other object in view but that there shall be the
tied into effect that plan which is most agreeable Notry.
House, as well as most advantageous to the °°u
ere
And if any gentleman can show to the House that tbe
can be a line of demarcation more advantageous t° fair
community—more just in its conception—ono m°reesalto:
,
in its application, and more beneficial in its 'Pell
her ]]Majesty's Government will be but too
sios
pleased to support it.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Lyhich
remains for me to express to the House the views- a to
her Majesty's Government have adopted in regsr to
the two other seats that aro vacant. With reglered
the two other seats that are vacant, we have cons
sees
that on the whole we cannot he guided in the Pr° at•
instance by a better principle than that I have
tempted to express. I would remind Hon. Go2"`t the
that the question we have to consider now is not 0"
large question of Parliamentary reform—it iS therof
portent question of completing the proper num': 011
Members in this House, with a due deference b° We
existing arrangements in respect to the franchise. _A to
must, then, apportion these seats with a due regsrtmot
our existing Parliamentary arrangements.h°Pivith
when this subject is discussed it will be viewed
may
conviction of the truth of that observation. There
„,sectl
be gentlemen who disapprove of the present ;Lased.
upon which the constituencies of the country ar Tegitis
Different opinions upon such a question may beat
these
mately maintained and powerfully advocated.
ce arises
questions do not enter into this discussion, schtesiv_,eet
from the necessity of having to apportion thos
to the
seats with due regard to all existing arrangementstd 11" ee
the franchise, and with a due rege erse
specs to of co. _
number of voters throughout the country, which wheri
must form a most material clement in our inquieoev___,,et
called upon to decide upon the apporti test
we are
these as a
of those coats,—(Hear, hear.) Taking . woe°
of the relative claims of the different places to iretc_esee,
representation—taking as a test the degree 0f their
Lion which they at present possess—taking', I ern
relative claims, and making such claims depeel s
eche
their present relative representation, I find among
aideruble number of constituencies of counties au n
Of
fabtitaerwi
roughs the city of Westalinoter, with CO

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved for leave to bring in a Bill to assign the seats
forfeited by the disfranchisement of the boroughs of
Sudbury and St. Albans. He said that when he as-
sumed his seat, after his election, he stated to the
House, in reply to the Honourable Member for
Wolverhampton, the general policy of the Government,
and the course they intended to pursue for the dispatch
of the business before the House. He stated then that
though it was the intention of the Government to
counsel her Majesty to dissolve the present Parlia-
ment, they were not prepared to give that advice
until those measures were passed which the exigency
of the public service required, or which the Government
considered of paramount importance. He did not men-
tion all the necessary measures which would be brought
in, but he stated there were three of paramount
importance : tat—one with reference to the internal
defence of the country; second, another to carry into
effect the recommendations fora reform in Chancery;
and lastly, he added that the Government intended,
when the Bill for the disfranchisement of St. Albans
passed, they would ask the House to com-
plete the constitutional number which formed the
aggregate of the House of Commons. He confessed he
was surprised and individually pained to hear it in-
sinuated that in proposing this Bill he had taken the
House by surprise, and committed, he would not say a
breach of trust, thougn that accusation had met his eye, but
tampered with that honourable understanding which ex-
isted between the Government and the House. He was
not conscious of having acted in any other
than a perfectly straightforward manner. He
trusted this explanation would acquit him of
any charge inconsistent with his position,
as a Minister.—(Hear, hear.) The Government
thought it was highly expedient that the seats vacated
should be filled up before the dissolution. Honourable
Members opposite might ask what particular magic
there was in the number of 658 Members?
He confessed he would be somewhat perplexed to defend
the cabalistic charge as to that fixed number. The
foundation of all arrangements, however, consisted in
prescription created by experience and sanctioned
by custom. Prescription was the most im-
portant element of liberty and progress; and
though he did not yield to any principle of superstition,
he was of opinion that the time had not arrived when
prescription could be lightly treated by the House of
Commons. The violation of prescription was an element
of disturbance—it led to discontent, offered a premium to
extravagant prejudices, and invited men to hazardous
objects and scheme., and were it for no other reason
than these he would warn the House against that which
was becoming a continuous and systematic deficiency in
the aggregate number of the Members of the House.
If the Government followed their own inclinations, he
hardly knew a subject which they might not more pro-
perly evade than the present, which was essentially in-
vidious. They did no; propose this measure to lengthen
the duration of Parliament, but because they consi-
dered it of great importance that the constitutional
number of Members should be completed before the
dissolution.—(Hear, hear.) The impending dissolution,
instead of being a reason against the Bill, was the
strongest argument in favour of making some ars
rangement. That unfortunate jealousy existing be-
tween town and country gave rise to a tendency
to consider whether other elements for forming a consti-
tuency might not be devised than those which had hitherto
formed the elements of the electoral body. Many plans
for that purpose had been suggested, which were en-
titled to very great respect. the Hon. Member fur
Malden had given notice of a motion for apportioning
two to ats to the University of London. That pro-
position would not give rise to any prejudice in his
mind, but on the contrary excited his interest
and sympathy. He could not but admire the idea of
permitting science and learning to exercise the popular
suffrage, but when the question was examined, the diffi-
culties in the way were not inconsiderable. The plan,
however, was so plausa,ble to the reason and ceptivating
to the imagination, that he could easily understand its
exciting the public interest and receiving the public ap-
probation. The Royal Society, for instance, wes a very
ancient institution; it was founded by a king, and
had been composed of some of the greatest
men England have ever produced, and of whom
their fellow-subjects were moat proud. Though he ad-
mitted the great attainments of this eminent body, he
thought the elements of which it was composed
would not be conducive to a proper representation.
—(Hear.) If such a principle were carried out
there was no reason why it should not be extended to
the zoological, geological, ethnological, and other similar
societies.—(Leughter.) In fact, they would place it in
the power of any body of men who gave themselves a
scientific name to claim the franchise.—(Hear, hear.)
The difficulties were too great to be contended against.
He did not wish to impugn or to trench on the privileges
of those societies, but it they looked at their constitution
they would find that they were generally self-elected bodies.
They had also considered the claim of the London Uni-
versity, and they did not find that circumstances pre-
vailedot there to entitle it to the concession. It wassv to
not
yet yet fully developed, nor was it sufficiently ex
justify the claim, and it must therefore be passed by.ss
Another proposition which had been made to them was
to concede one Member; to the fouris •
lof court wouldnns of court.
No doubt the Members of the four nn
make up a considerable constituency. Their members
occupied a conspicuous position in history, and many of
them had often found their way into Parliament
where they had rendered the country great
service; but there was a prejudice, which he did not
share, against the too considerable appearance of lawyers
in the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear and a laugh.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman
then contd' nued—l. beg to
say, Sir,. that I do not share it, because I remember how
much of our liberty is owing to our law, and is founded
upon our law, and that lawyers have been the greatest
champions of the rights of the people of England. I
confess I am surprised, therefore, at the existence of a
prejudice such as this.—(Hear.) When I recollect that
the lawyers have been, not only the great assertors of
English liberties, but also the greatest ornaments of the
House of Commons; when I recollect that Sir Edward
Coke and Lord Bacon both sat in this House; when I
recollect the revered age of Mr. gulden and Lot d Somers,
and in after days the golden eloquence of Mansfield and
the majestic virtues of Romilly; when I recollect that
the descendants of many of these eminent men it is still
our pride and boast to remember are sitting in this as-
sembly, I cannot, I confess, agree in a prejudice which
I think is totally unwarranted by facts.—(Cheers.) It
would not do, I am perfectly aware, for her Majesty's
Government to propose, unless the proposition were at-
tended by some identical or analagous projects, to allot
one or more of the four vacant seats to the inns of court;
therefore, on the part of her Majesty's Government,
after the most painful consideration, and with the
most ample desire to introduce constituencies.g founded
noled
upon these elements, and believing that they might
con-
tribute to the increased reputation of this lemlely, I
must renounce at present any attemptf to forma's
consti-
tuency out of those interesting, but, I
elements.—(Hear, hear.) Under
these circumstances,
impracticable
circumstances,
Sir, I have now to place before the House the results of
the next step in the investigations
by the Government
which,
upon this subject, and the couto on the whole,
they think it best for the
Houser to tollow, in or,'er to
accomplish that which they deem one of the highest
duties of the House—namely,ey, to complete its constitu-
tional numbers previous to
to s the impending dissolution.
Wear, hear.) W
first to consider where we
should seek for the elements of a new constituercy, to
whose trust we could confide the possession of the nc-
blest privileges which freemen can exercise. We have
considered that the relative claims of different portions
of the community very much depend upon the relative
degree of representation that they now possess; and
that that relative degree of representation could not,
on the whole, be more fairly tested than by
ascertaining the number of the existing consti-
tuencies, and the numbers of the population by whom
those existing constituencies are, as it were, fed,
supplied, and maintained. And in looking over
the different constituencies of this country, guided
by this principle, there is one constituency, the
claims of which seem to her Majesty's Government to be
paramount, and that is the constituency of the West
Riding of Yorkshire.—(oh, oh, and laughter from the
Oppeaition, and hear, hear from the bliniaterial benches.)