The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-03 00:00:00

they had already in some quarters passed those limits. It

was with much regret that he looked to the possession of
Peshawar and of any country on the right bank of the
Indus, above Kalabagh, where the navigation of the Indus
from the sea ceased. He looked also with regret upon most
of the annexations obtained 20 years ago from the Court of
Ave, with the exception of the annexation of Arracan ; but
of this he was quite sure, that beyond their present terri-
torial limits it would be the last proof of political insanity
to pass. The danger, in a military empire such as India
was and must ever remain, was greater far in the sta-
tionary than in the progressive state. His apprehensions
now arose from the insolence of office, which even in his
time had led to one insurrection, from disregard of military
duties, from the absence of due consideration for the native
officers and troops, and, above all, from the forgetfulness of
that great principle by which their Indian empire had been
acquired—respect for the religious prejudices and for the
social happiness of the people.—(Hear.) These were the
dangers of a stationary state, and were, in his opinion,
greater far than any danger they had encountered in the
progressive state of the ample dominions which they now
possessed in India. When he came to consider what they
should do under these circumstances, and what alterations,
it any, they should make in the present system of the
government of India, he assumed with his Noble Friend
one point as absolutely settled seventy years ago
namely, that the patronage of India was severed for
ever from the Crown. He willingly acquiesced in that
as a settled point, because he believed it was equally
conducive to the advantage of this country and of India;
but, at the same time, he was of opinion that much might be
done by Parliament for the purpose of improving the admi-
nistration of patronage. He would at once distinctly declare
that in his opinion there was no object Parliament could have
in view so important as that of sending to India the very
best persons both for the military and the civil departments,
for their character was practically the Government of India.
He was willing to admit another principle, though he did so
with very considerable reluctance—namely, that it was ne-
cessary to continue the system of double government. He
did not approve of that system ; he saw all its mischiefs ; he
saw how directly it led to delay in the transaction of busi-
ness, occasionally to very great embarrassment, and neces-
sarilytb great
tdregart
disregard
of
absenceeconomy; of but,
above all that, it
involved practically aall real responsibility
on the part of the home authorities. He would only at the
present moment touch upon those organic changes which it
seemed to him expedient to introduce for the purpose of
leading to the improved government of India. He admitted
that in the course of the last twenty years much had
been done. It would be hard indeed if India alone
should not have shared in the universal progress
bhtobweedvbebr,e by
ye
the improvements he would
touched upon the organic
of the world. But much remained to be done, and he
thoughtsuggest. much
B
changes he would desire to see introduced, he would shortly
state those alterations in the present law which it would be
expedient to introduce, even if they were prepared to ;main-
tain the Court of Directors and the Board of Control as
elomre might
they now were, and to conduct the Government precisely
upon the principles upon which it now rested. Ile would
first suggest that it would be highly expedient that the
Board ca Control should have the same power over the home
treasury es they had over the treasury in India. At present
the Board had no such power. Whatever information the
Board of Control might have with respect to any intended
misappropriation of the public revenue of hells, they were
powerless for the purpose of
preventing it. He believed that
if the Court of Directors were to give an order to the Bank
to divide among them the whole of the balance the Com-
pany might have there, the Board of Control had no power
whatever to prevent such a division. He would ask their
Lordships to look at the establishment of the East India
House, and compare it with the establishments of the Crown,
either with regard to numbers or emoluments. He believed
the number of persons employed at this moment at the
East India House was equal to the number employed in all
the departments of all the Secretaries of State. If, however,
they only looked at the emoluments these persons received,
he apprehended it woull be found that there was a very wide
space for economical reductions. Such was the extrava-
gance of thesesemolumsnts, that he recollected being told,
more than 20 years ago, when he first went to the Board
of Control, that a gentleman, whose only recommendation
was that he had written some ver-
y bad novels, which had
failed, but who bad a sort of knack for writing, had been
employed by the court, at a salary of 2,0001. a year, to
write the controversial letters the court might have to ad-
dress to the Board of Control. For his (Lord Ellen-
borough's) part, he was charmed with the correspondence;
for, such were the literary abilities of this gentleman, that
his letters, especially when altered and amended by 24 other
gentlemen, did not interpose very great die cuities in the
way of the person who was called upon to answer them.—
(A laugh.) He would further suggest that the audit of the
accounts of the East India Company should not be entiuely
dependent upon themselves, but that an independent audi-
tor should be appointed by the Crown. He saw
no reason why the officer who held such an im-
portant situation Should not be as independent as
the Noble Lord who was auditor of the Treasury. He
thought the duty of the auditor should be not merely to see
that there was authority for every payment, but that every
payment was, according to the strict appropriati ei in the
Act of Parliament, for the service of the government of
India. He did not hesitate to say that payments had been
made which were inconsistent with that appropriation, and
which, from his understanding of the Act of Parliament,
were illegal. Another alteration which he thought would
be productive of very great public advantage would be to
give to the Crown the absolute power of nominating the
Commanders-in-Chief of the army in India, and not merely
of the army of India, but of the armies of both the presi-
dencies. He would give the Crown the power of appointing
the Commanders-in-Chief of both the royal and the native
armies, and would suggest that they should (as we under-
stood) be ex-officio members of the Council. He knew of
one occasion—and there might be many—in which the East
India Company had prevented the appointment of the officer
who had been thought most fit in the judgment of the Crown
to command the army, and that was a power they ought
not to have. He thought it a great scandal and a great
abuse. He recollected, too, that on anothor occasion
the most extraordinary—he might say, indeed, with-
out any imputation of using language too strong,
the most impudent—representations had been made
against the appointment of the late Earl of Dalhousie
to the command of the army, because, forsooth, the Chair-
man of the Court of Directors, Mr. Astell, took a different
view of the Noble Lord's conduct when Governor of Lower
Canada from that which had been taken of it by Mr. Hus-
kisson, the Colonial Secretary. Now, he conceived that
those were representations which the Court of Directors
ought not to have power to make. Again, he remembered
another occasion on which representations had been made
to him against the appointment of a most pliant officer, on
the ground that he was addicted to habits of drunkenness.
These representations were investigated, and proved to be
utterly false, and yet he (Lord Ellenborough) had, as repre-
sentative of the Crown, to make answer in reference to these
charges to the Board of Control. Such things, in his
opinion, ought not to be. And further, he thought it ab-
solutely necessary, especially under the present circum-
stances of India, which demanded, in order to insure its
safety, a very large increase of European troops, and a very
great diminution of the native forces, and that there
should be substitued for the civil police, which was ut-
terly inefficient, a military police, IV h
0 would perform
many of the duties now executed by the native soldier—
he said it was absolutely necessary that the Crown
should possess without any control on the part of
the Board of Directors the unrestricted power of sending
out as many of the regular troops as was thought fit.
At present the Crown could not send oat more than 20,000
without the consent of the board, which was contrary to
reason and to public policy, inasmuch as the Crown was re-
sponsible for the safety of India, and on the Crown should rest
the decision of the number of troops to be maintained there.
He thought, also, it would be very expedient that the Crown
should possess the power of giving a negative in the appoint-
ment of members of the council. He was far from saying
those gentlemen had not been properly appointed, but in the
new circumstances and position of the country it was most
expedient and necessary, in isis judgment, that every mem-
ber of the militia as well as of the civil service should
look to the Crown as the source of honour and authority.—
(Hear, bear.) He did not propose any alteration should
take place in the mode of appointment of the Governor-
General. There were practical advantages in the present
arrangement, and under all the circumstances it secured
the best appointments. No doubt there had been occasions
on which the Government had been inconveniently pressed by
the request of one of their own friends, whom they would not
wish to disoblige, while, at the same time, they would be re-
luctant to trust the government of India into his hands. lie
knew that there had been an occasion in which the intervention
of the Court of Directors had been found convenient to Go-
vernment in this respect, and, seeing no practical inconve-
nience whatever in the present system, he ahould certainly
propose no alteration. But be expressed his opinion, and
to it he undoubtedly adhered, that the appointment not only
of the Governor-General, but of the governors of subordi-
nate provinces, and their continuance in office, should depend
upon the Crown. They might,;
with great advantage to the
country and to the service, improve the position of the
Governor-General, and increase his means of usefulness, by
placing him on such a footing that he should not be depend-
ent on two masters—that he should be no longer left in a
condition in which he was liable to be accused by the one,
and be recalled by the other. They might also greatly im-
prove his public usefulness, by improving the composition of
the council with which he acted. At present there was no
member of the Bombay or Madras services on the council ;
and yet Acts were sent fume Bombay and Madras to the
Governor and Council, which alone had legislative power
and many measures were prepared by them with respect to
which the Government of India was practically iu darkness,
having no means of obtaining information about them. He
thought it would greatly conduce to the improvement of
legislation, and much assist the Governor-General in respect
to questions of this nature, if he had representatives of each
of those provinces in his council. He did not know that it
would be advisable to make any alteration in the law, or
in the practice by which the Governor-General of India
was nominated Governor of Bengal at the same time; but
he thought it would be high;
--Y conducive to the due dis-
charge of his public duties that the governor should divest
himself of the government of Bengal; and vest it in one of
his council. He really had not time no matter what labours
he might take upon himself, to disc'harge all the duties that
devolved upon him. His Noble Friend had spoken of the
provision of the Act of 1833, by which an extraordinary
member of the council was appointed. It had always ap-
peared to him that a great practical improvement might be
made in the selection of that individual. Hitherto he had
been on all occasions a member of the legal profession, and
as such the gentleman appointed considered himself to be
sent out as the legislator of India , and from the day of his
arrival to the day of his departure he used all his efforts to
alter the law, and to change the legislation of a great empire.
Now, even the most enlightened- British lawyer suddenly
thrown into the midst of Calcutta was not the man most
qualified to devise those laws by which the people of India
were to be governed. But by using that provision of 1833 in
a different manner they might
give great assistance to the Go-
vernor-General. He thought the selection of a gentleman from
that grade out of which gentlemen were mostly taken for the
office of Under-Secretary of State would be the greatest as-
sistance to the Governor and Council. Such a person would
be able to direct his fresh English mind to subjects
pressed upon the Governor-General by individuals with
Indian prejudices, and, having a person of European reputa-
tion to consult with, it would be to the mind of the
Governor-Geaeral the greatest possible relief. He could
assure their Lordships there was nothing in India which
pressed so heavily on the Governor-General as having
no other mind to which he could have recourse, and
being obliged to do everything from his own thought
' and will, without the opportunity of obtaining any aid
whatever, in the formation of hia projects. The Governor-
General might obtain facts, but be could not get opinions;
and there really was nothing more calculated to unnerve
a man than this constant pressure upon his mental powers.
Enlarged as the council would be by the addition of the
members from Bombay and Madras, it would on that ac-
count, if not on general grounds, be extremely desirable
that there should be no ambiguity with respect to the
privileges of the Governor-General, who overruled the
opinions of the council. lie believed that by a somewhat
strained interpretation of the law, which it was alone for
the Governor-General to make, he might now perhaps over-
rule the decisions of the mina, but that was a matter

which should not be left in any doubt whatever, and the
Governor-General should be enabled on all occasions to

exercise that power, because he alone was responsible for his
opinion and for the result of his conduct. There was also
another matter which should be left without the smallest

ambiguity, and that was the power of the Governor- Ganeral
to leave his council and to proceed into the interior. Under
the law of 1833, that had been done by resolution of the
council, but in his opinion it was still in the power of the
Governor-General to leave his council and act in the pro-
vinces by virtue of the authority he had by the law previous
to 1833, as had been done by Lord Wellesley and others;
but the question was one of such extreme importance that it
should not be left till it was settled beyond all doubt. Per-
haps it might be advisable that he should say a word with
regard to a question which was much agitated in India, and
had been discussed at home—the change in the seat of Go-
vernment. He recollected very well in 1823 and 1830, when
it had been his duty to consider what measures should be
taken in that direction, having communicated with the Noble
Duke (the Duke of Wellington), then at the head of the Go-
vernment, on the subject, and he considered the reasoning of
the Noble Duke for continuing the seat of Government at
Calcutta at that time perfectly unanswerable. He had been
asked, "Could not the Government be conducted from Simla?"
" Yea," he had answered," just as the Government of Rome
was conducted from Carthage, and with the same results."
The Noble Lord (the Earl of Derby) had left him nothing
to add in his description of the Court of Proprie-
tors. The 1,800 gentlemen who had votes in the Court re-
presented each their 1,000/. stock, and nothing else. They
had no other connexion with India, and had no more to do
with it than the proprietors of Bank or any other stock. He
saw from an inspection of the East India Register the Noble
Earl had somewhat overrated the number of native proprie-
tors in the Court. Omitting 335 with the letters " W. S."
after their names—which meant " widow" and " spinster"—
( Laughter) -ard many gentlemen of the Jewish persuasion,
some of whom having purchased stock to a considerable ex-
tent had four votes each, he had endeavoured to see what the
proportion oi persons really connected with India was to the
number of proprietors; and he feared that if he estimated
them at 300, or one-sixth of the whole, he would go to the
utmost possible extent. Now, let them consider not only the
composition of the Court of Proprietors, but the manner in
which the persons composing it were, distributed, and how
they were under the influence of certain families and certain
firms. They would see the result was that certain families
and firms could practically decide the election of the direc-
tors ; and, as the constituency was so very numerous and
scattered, no person desiring to be a director could gain ad-
mission to the board without having gone through the
most elaborate and most disagreeable canvass, extending
in general over a period of seven or eight years, and with-
out sustaining one defeat, or more. He remembered asking
a friend of his why he took so much trouble to be a director,
and the reply showed him the whole secret of the matter.
"Why," said he, "my friends have been supporting me so
long, they now expect me to go on that I may do some-
thing for them in consequence of their long adherence to
me." In that answer their Lordships saw what was really
the whole working of the system. And what were the
results? He wished he could think they were what his
Noble Friend stated. His Noble Friend said that twenty-one
out of the thirty directors were of distinction in the service
of India. Now, he (Lord Ellenborough) had bean ac-
quainted with the Indian service ever since 1823—his eye
had never been off it—and he had given more attention to
the names and persons engaged in it than most of their
Lordships, and probably than most other persons; but, on
referring to the list, he found there were only four out of
the thirty directors who had any Indian reputation. He
did not mean to say there were nut many respectable persons
who, having been many years on the direction, had ob-
tained in England a certain knowledge of Indian affairs,
but not one of them had been fit, when first appointed,
and, whatever their knowledge now, it gave them no
weight in India. They might have made one voyage to
India, or have seen the country in a dauk journey, but, prac-
tically, they knew nothing of India; no one could have any
confidence in their advice, and, when they adopted resolu-
tions, they had not that weight in India which would be
given to them if the ccurt were really composed of Indians.
He ventured to propose to his Lordship that he should con-
sider whether it might not be expedient very materially to
extend the constituency by which the court was elected;
and he thought he could show the representative body would
be greatly improved by his suggestion. The directors of
the East India company—a commercial company in a state
of suspeuded animation—had no necessary connexion what-
ever with the government of India. He would willingly
leave to the present proprietors of East India Stock, with
the power of giving proxies and their other privileges, the
right to vote for the election of directors. He would take
every precaution for the due transmission to England
of the necessary funds to pay interest on the stock and
bonds, but the payment might be made by the Bank, just
as well as the payment of the Three per Cents. He thought,
however, it would be advisable and expelient that
Indian experience should intervene in the election of the
persons charged with the direction of Indian affairs • and,
with that object, he proposed that, in addition to the pro-
prietors of stock, all officers, civil or military, who had
served in the native or European services, or the civil ser-
vice and courts of law for 10 years, should have votes for
the election of the directors. All the relations between the
Court of Directors and the Council of India would remain
the same as now, and no alteration would take place be-
tween the Court of Directors and the Board of Control, but
the Court itself would be elected by an enlarged constituency.
The addition thus made would be equal to the present num-
ber of the constituents, and, considering the number of
retired officers, and the persons on furlough, the elective body
would just be doubled. The constituency would be greatly
improved, as he thought, by receiving a thoroughly Indian
character, and by its being extended so much that personal
canvass would become impossible, and that persons desi
rous of becoming, directors might be elected, not after a
tedious delay, and on various grounds, but on the score
of services, and at once, while their recollections of India
were fresh, and their faculties vigorous and unimpaired.
Another alteration he would suggest was, that the number
of members constituting the Court of Directors should be
reduced—from 24 to 12; not that he meant to say that no
Cabinet Council consisting of 24 persons could by possibi-
lity transact business; or that no body of men exceeding 12
could with convenience transact business of a highly im-
portant, confidential, and political character. But he looked
in this alteration for that which he thought should be the
foundation, of all their improvements—an improvement in
the administration of patronage. If the patronage were
divided among twelve, instead of being distributed among
twenty-four, what would be the consequence? Their Lord-
ships might recollect what was said by Lord Bacon—that
charity, when dispersed, hardly watered the ground where
it had first been a pool ;" so patronage, wheu dispersed,
would hardly water the ground where it had first been
a poo •
1 In this case there must be filled, not one pool
only, but thirty pools, before there could be an overflow of
patronage to be distributed among those who were deserving
of it for the services they had rendered. Some of those
pools were large indeed. He recollected looking over a list
of persons on whom patronage had been bestowed, and he
saw the names of fourteen gentlemen who all rejoiced in the
same surname, and which was exactly the same name as that
of one of the directors; and he bad not the slightest doubt
that every one of them was a member of the same family.
It was not only that those persons who were entitled to
have this patronage exercised in their favour did not obtain
it, but by the present system on which it was dispensed the
relations of the 24 directors were scattered over the whole
face of India, which most materially interfered with the due
exercise of authority there. It was to enable those 12 per-
sons, with this much larger amount of patronage, to be dis-
tributed among those who deserved it, that he, among
other reasons, proposed the reduction of the number of
the Court of Directors. He had sometimes read in the
newspapers accounts of the extraordinary liberality with
which Mr. This or Mr. That had given his patronage to the
son of this or that deserving officer. Now, he had seen a
great deal of those officers, and had often heard their com-
plaints, and the expression of their utter hopelesseess of
obtaining the least favour from the directors for the benefit
of their families. He had known them leave India in a
most desponding state of mind, because no provision was
made for their children. He recollected a most striking case.
It was that of an officer who had most ably distinguished
himself in General Sir George Pollock 's army. He was an
officer on whom he (the Earl of Ellenborough) had felt it
not only his duty but his privilege, as the Governor-General
of India, to confer honour. He recollected that officer
coming to him and saying to him,—"l cannot get a cadet-
ship for my only son ; all my desire is to get him into the
service; I have made applications to the directors, but
every one of them has been in vain ; and my son will now
soon be of that age in which he will hardly be able to get
a regiment in the Royal army." Such was the case of this
meritorious officer. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had
placed the case of this young man before his Noble Friend
the Noble Duke ; and thus the case of the son of one of the
most deserving officers in the company's service was at pre-
sent under the consideration of the Noble Duke, simply for
the purpose of being permitted to purchase a commission in
her Majesty's service, he having been unable to obtain an
appointment from any of the directorsof the East India Com-
pany I What were the feelings of the father of that youth?
His desire was to send his son to the scene in which he him-
self had acted so long and so meritorious a part ; but this he
was debarred from doing by the present system of the dis-
tribution of patronage. He (the Earl of Ellenborough)
trusted that the alteration which he proposed would obviate
that evil. Again, he could see no reason whatever why a pro-
portion of the cadetships, and a proportion of the writerships,
should not be saleable like commissions in her Majesty'a army
at a fixed price. He could not understand why a practice
should exist by which the whole of the aristocracy of Eng-
land, almost without exception—he did not mean their
Lerdahips only, but all persons of the highest rank and for-
tune in the country, who did not happen to be acquainted
with a directsr of the East India Company—that they and
their sons should for ever be excluded from the most dis-
tinguished service to which any young man could aspire to
belong. It seemed to him,to be a public wrong, and calcu-
lated to do great public mischief. But, happen what might,
he thought it most desirable that at least one-fourth of the
cadetships and writerships should be exposed to sale at a
fixed sum. Let him not omit to say that he thought it not
only highly expedient, but absolutely necessary,
_that the
Governor-General should have the power, or assigning his
reasons, of taking officers from military service and placing
them in the civil service of the Company. The total number
of all the civil servants in India was about 800. Those
gentlemen were generally the immediate relations and
friends of the directors of the East India Company. They
went to India to rise in succession, and at last to exercise
the highest functions, whatever their fitness, in the govern-
ment of an empire containing, as kis Noble Friend had stated,
150,000,000 of people. It was contrary to reason that those
800 young men so selected should be capable of exe-
cuting those important duties. He held with Lord Wil-
liam Bentinck, who said that 800 angels could not per
form the functions of Government in India under such cir-
cumstances. It was preposterous. But if the Governor-
General had the power of selecting officers from the army to
become civil servants, he would be able to avail himself not
only of the services of those 800 persons, but of the services
of more than 5,000, every one of whom would be competent
to perform the duties required of him by the Government, he
having been destined for such an office. In point of fact,
the best administrators of Government in India had been mi-
litary men who bad risen in that country by means of
having had intrusted to them the administration of con-
quered or ceded territories. He did not agree with those
who thought that a portion of the cadetships and writer.
ships should be offered as a reward to the most distinguished.
scholars in the schools belonging to the company. He said
so on this ground, that the knowledge acquired fro
was of no use in India. The giving of great user in the different schools might be of great to
troops
but it would be of greet disservice to Ina' the schools,
If they had to select a boy to lead their ja.—(11"1.0
`itchlaeyr,
notthe
difficulties, would they take the best under
most solitary bockworm the school, or wouldBC
rather choose the boy who was moswthretuarkable for his in-
fluence over Iris schoolfellowe, and
manage them ? There was notbi
s that
o hit eew best how to
which could be learned from bookng, -0 would repeat it,
man for a situation in India. That ashicheo
wasu ld qualify
India, besides a kno eledee of lrequiredaniyn
dustry and au aptitude tor aTai,g„es:,,l%,ras,vatin untiring
in-
were practically found to Jet' tow awn
.Possess; but,
required, was that which Id
could not be gathered from books
decision of character, moral
Raote mor. courage, firmness in

the face of the public, and a determination, happen what
might to himself, to do his duty at once to the country of his '
birth and also to the country of his adoption. Those were
the qualities they wanted in India, but they were not to be
met with merely among those who most distinguished
themselves at school. He confessed he felt a very deepin-
terest in the question then before their Lordships. He had
made India the subject of his earliest thoughts, and that now
for 21 years. He might, indeed, say that his whole public life
had practically been devoted to India. He would tell them
again that India had arrived at the most critical period
of its history—at one of those periods in the history of
a state in which it was absolutely necessary carefully to
look back and carefully to look forward, in order to as-
certain whether those measures and that policy which had
assisted, or at least had not impeded their progress, were
likely to be equally efficacious for the purpose of preventing
their fall. He felt satisfied that it was wholly on the spirit
in which the government of India was conducted, on the
temper in which its power was administered, on the consi-
deration with which they treated, not the native army only,
but the whole of the native population, that it was on their
perseverance in, and adherence to, those principles, and on
their attention to the religion, and the prejudies, and the
social habits of the people, by which hitherto their Govern-
ment in India had been permitted to exist,--and it was on
these feelings and this conduct alone that that perilous em-
pire could be preserved. Perilous it was called by Lord
Wellesley at a very early period of his acquaintance with
India; much more perilous was it now. It was net one
which had its roots in the affections of the people. It had
not its roots in the perfection of its institutions. It
exhibited nothing to the people which they could un-
derstand, or admire, or love. He was made deeply
sensible of this even under the most favourable circum-
stances in which that Government could be presented to the
natives of India. Ile did, therefore, entreat his Noble Friend.
and he entreated their Lordships and the Parliament. when
considering what should be done in this great emergency,
and what constitution should be given to India for the pur-
pose of forming it, if they could, into an integral part of the
British empire (for he could not bear to consider it possible
that England should ever be separated from that country ; it
was not yet separated, and never could be, if the same
ability was used for preserving it as was used for obtaining
it)— but he entreated their Lordship, when considering
this great question, not to allow the mere matter of conve-
nience in carrying the measure through Parliament, or any
consideration of matters which ought to be below the
notice of high-minded statesmen when dealing with the
future happiness of a great people,—he entreated them not
to allow any considerations or feelings of that kind to pre-
vent them from doing that which was just by the people of
India, that which was just by the people of England, and
that which might make their name memorable tor ever in
India, and establish their empire in the gratitude and
affections of the people of that country for real blessings
conferred.

The motion was then agreed to; and
On the motion of the Earl of DERBY, the following
Noble Lords were nominated to the Committee, viz. :—The
Lord Privy Seal, the Marquis of Lansdowne, the Marquis
of Normanby, the Marquis of Tweeddale, the Duke of Mon.
trose, the Earl of Derby, Earl Grey, the Earl of Harrow by,
the Earl of Ellenborough, Earl Stradbruke, Earl Delaware,
the Earl of Powis, the Earl of Mansfield, the Earl of Carlisle,
the Earl of Albemarle, Viscount Hardioge, Viscount Gough,
Viscount Canning, the Bishop of Oxford, Lord Colchester,
Lord Broughton, the Duke of Argyll, Lord Ashburton, Lord
Colville, Lord Elphinstone, Lord Glenelg, Lord Stanley of
Alderley, Lord Wodehouse, Lord Monteagle, the Marquis of
Sligo, and Lord Monteagle of Brandon.
On the motion of the Earl of LONSDALE, the Indemnity
Bill was read a second time.

GRANT TO THE COLLEGE OF MAYNOOTII.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE rose to ask the Noble Earl
the First Lord of the Treasury, whether her Majesty's Go-
vernment contemplated any change of policy with regard to
the maintenance of the College of Maynooth. The grant to
Maynooth College rested upon an annual vote in the miscel•
laneous estimates of about 8,000/. or 9,000/. until 1845, when
the vote was converted by Act of Parliament into a perma-
nent charge upon the consolidated fund. This measure ori-
ginated with a Government of which the Noble Earl (Derby)
was one of the most distinguished members. The subject
was very maturely and very deliberately considered. It oc-
cupied fourteen nights' debate iu the House of Commons,
and five nights' debate in their Lordships' House. On the
third night in that House the last speaker was the Noble
Earl now at the head of her Majesty's Government. The
late Earl Charleville had, in the course of the debate, said
that the Government should not abuse his confidence, and
he reminded the Noble Earl that he (the Earl of Charle-
ville) was one of those who bad placed him in 'power.
The Noble Earl, at that time sitting under another title in
that House, expressed the regret her Majesty's Ministers
would feel in losing the confidence of those who had called
that Government to power, but that those considerations
would not weigh so much on the minds of the Government
as the still higher duty which they owed to their country
and their God. The Noble Earl closed that speech—a
speech which occupied ten pages of Hansard—by calling
upon the House, as statesmen and as Christians, to pass that
measure. He had mentioned this to show the deep interest
which was at that time felt by the Noble Earl on the subject
of the Maynooth grant. Under other circumstances he
should have considered the question of which he (the Earl of
Albemarle) had given notice to have been one of superero-
gation, if it had not been fur the suspicion which appeared to
have been conveyed to the public mind, and for the distrust
and uncertainty which prevailed concerning almost all the
measures contemplated by the present Government. Her
Majesty's Ministers seemed to want a fixity of purpose and
of principle. There seemed a tendency on their parts to
shift off the responsibility from their own shoulders, and to
leave all questions to be carried by agitation out of doors.
It was for this reason that he came forward to ask the
question of the Noble Earl. But perhaps it would have
ben unnecessary for him to put the question, but
from the ambiguous and unsatisfactory answer which
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given to a
Similar question in the other House of Parliament.
What he (the Earl of Albemarle) wished to elicit from the
Noble Earl was some distinct acknowledgment of his policy;
because it appeared to him that the question of the Maynooth
grant came under the same category as that of free trade in
corn.—(Laughter.) He considered they were both placed
up to a public bidding, and were to bo knocked down to the
highest bidder. In the case of corn the question was put
to the Protectionists and Free-traders of this country ; and as
to the grant to Maynooth, it was put to the Catholics and
Procestdnts of Ireland. The one wag an appeal to the En-
glish constituency, the other an appeal to the Irish consti-
tuency. But her Majesty's Government would have some
difficulties to encounter on both questions. What said the
Secretary to the Treasury to his supporters? The report
stated that the speaker (meaning the Secretary to the Trea-
sury) then referred to his votes on the Maynooth grant, and
stated his determination in future to give his unqualfied op-
position to any grant to the Romish Church that might be
proposed in any mode whatever, whenever, and by whom-
soever. He would ask the Noble Earl at the head of the
Government whether that was the language of a subordinate
or an insubordinate officer ?—(Laughter. ) The Noble Earl
concluded by putting his question.
The Earl of DERBY—The Noble Earl will excuse me if I
do not think it necessary to follow him in the reasons which
he has given for patting this question to me. I shall confine
myself simply to answering that question. I beg to state
to the Noble Earl that her Majesty's Government has no
present intention of proposing to Parliament any interference
with the Act which was passed to grant an endowment to
the College of Maynooth in the year 1845. The Noble Earl
must allow me to add, and I do it with great regret—that
the highly objectionable course which has been pursued by a
large body of the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, and
the aggressive attitude which they of late years have taken,
have added materially to the difficulty of defending an en-
dowment which was intended for the purpose of maintaining
peace and goodwill, for the purpose of binding the clergy
of the Church of Rome to the State by ties of gratitude for
material assistance afforded them; gratitude fur the good-
will shown towards them ; in short, for the purpose of bind-
ing them by the ties of loyalty, contentment, and peace-
fulness.—(Hear, hear.)
Their Lordships then adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, April 2.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
PRIVATE BILLS.
Tho two following Bills were read a third time and
passed:—

Barnsley Gas Bill.
Bristol and Liter Railway (Yeovil Branch) Bill.
The following Bills were considered and ordered to
be engrossed:—
British Empire Mutual Life Assurance Company Bill.
Derby Gas Bill.
Lancaster Waterworks Cemetery and Gas Bill.
Medina River Navigation Bill.
METROPOLIS WATER BIL
Viscount EBRINGTON moved thatL the petition
of members of the Metropolitan Sanitary Asso-
ciation, being water consumers and ratepayers
within the metropolis, be referred to the Committee on
the Metropolis Water. Supply Bill; and that it be an
instruction to the said Committee to hear the parties
who have signed the said petition, in pursuance of the
prayer thereof; and that the said petitioners be exempted
from the payment of fees. That the following Members
be added to the Committee on the said Bill:—Lord John
Manners, Sir J.Johnstone, Sir W. Clay, Mr. Mowatt, Mr.
Lushington, Mr. Cochrane, and Viscount Ebrington,
The Noble Lord slid if he consulted his own conveni-
ence he should take no further trouble in this matter,
but it was for the interest of the public that this motion
should be made; and with the consent of his colleagues
in the former Commission of Sewers he now brought the
subject again before the House.
Mr. MO WATT seconded the motion.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN resisted it, and declared
that the motion ought to have been made last year,
before the subject was referred to the consideration
whetheritttheeeB:
of a Select Committee. This motion, in fact, came too
late, and he, therefore, hoped the House would not
e;
ueothideer c
con-
sent to upset all that had yet been done intoholisuT.att
It
ty
was,tl ie Committeehowever, f
for
rf
tthe
use to
do
Selectiono and
took a different view to the Committee of Sol
if the Noble Lord persevered with the m '
Selection )
, and
certainly divide upon it. motion he should
Lord SEYMOUR was also of
opinion 1'
whi h that the motion
was intended to re-open a question
year and he should therefore onn -°••• Wlie settled last
Mr. MO WATT said, all the re" it.
was to report against the Goeer -oromittce did last year
broke up before it had Closed meet scheme, and as it
termination of the session h its labours, owing to the,
stand why the motionsh ' e was at a loss to under-
in his opinion, was onid be opposed. 'The 'notion,
a perfectly reasonable proposition,
and until hey was
some stronger reasons against it
than had yet lPen Mr. B. DE mTc, urged he should give it his.sapport.
Oared that thede. house would be guilty of an act of great
injustice if they agreed to it.
Lord J, MANNERS hoped the resolution would not
be Persevered with, and then the House would have a
chance of receiving an excellent and conclusive report
upon this water question before the close of the session.
After a few words from Viscount EBRINGTON the
motion was negatived without a division.
PETITIONS.

Sir J. HOPE presented a petition against the May.
nootb grant.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition. from Lincoln
College, to be exempted from the operation of
L9rd MELGUND presented a petition from Glasgow
theol Cegnea'r prayingitabl ' r rusts Bill.
in favour of sPeular education.
Mr. B. SMITH presented a petition in favour of
()van p'nnv postage,
Mr. REY:\ OLDS oresentA t wo pr,titions from
~,anty, in favour of th, T.
night Bill.
Mr. J. CLAY presented a petition from Hull against
the Charitable Trusts Act.
STAFFORD presented a petition from a place io

Northamptonshire complaining of agricultural distret.
and prayiez for relief.
Mr. SLANEY presented a large numbs,.' of Petitio 09
from various parts of the country in favour ofthei
legalising industrial partnerships; also, a pet. '"in c(n
the inhabitants of Brentfold, praying for a r.
the law rplating to the transfer and mortgage of "1110.
Mr. MILES presented a paition against the Maj
grant. _ .

Mr. LIE ADL AM presented a petition from the lot
prated Law Society, praying for the repeal of tto
attorneys' cPitificate duty (Ili we understood).
Alr. MO W A.TT presented a petition from Fslmot tth
against tie Militia Bill.
Mr. lIUME presented a petition from St. Andre WS
against the Bill for reducing the number of councill re
in Scotch boroughs.
Lord JOtiN RUSSELL presented several petition 16
fiom Essex in favour of the repeal of the malt-tax.
Mr. NEWDEG ATE presented a petition from th
Protestant Association, against the Maynooth grant, am
similar petitions from various places in Warwickshire.
Lord HARRY VANE presented two petitions from
Stockton, one against the Militia Bill, and the other in
favour of ocean penny postage.
Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a petition from
Marylobone, praying fur the repeal of all taxes on
knowledge.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
visa to interfere with any discussion which the House
ght think proper to raise. on going into Committ,ee of
bupply next Monday, with regard to the conduct of
the Government, but he did not wish any misconception
unnecessarily to continue on a salkje2t of some import-
ance, and he wished now to enter into some explana-
tion upon the subject to which the Noble
Lord had just adverted —(Cheers.) From his
acquaintance with " the views and opinions of
the First Minister of the Crown, he had no hesitation
in saying, without waiting until Monday, that a very great
misconception had existed during the last two or three
days as to the intention of the First Minister, and that
he certainly never intended in any way to convey any
meaning to the House or the country that his opinions
on the subject of a dissolution of Parliament
were in the slightest degree changed (Hear,
bear)—and that it was now, as it was formerly,
the intention of the Government, so soon as
those measures were passed which were necessary for the
service of her Majesty and what they consilered the
security and good government of the realm, humbly to
counsel her Majesty to dissolve the existing
.Parliament.
—(Hear, bear)—and they would do so with the lull in-
tention of recommending her Majesty to meet the lift.,
Parliament during the course of the present year, under
circumstances which would give an ample and complete
opportunity to the new Parliament to decide on the
character and policy of the existing Government. He
i
iniste rial cheers )
thought that was all they could say.—(lBl
They never for a moment hesitated n that intention.
—(Hear, hear.) As for any Government pledging
themselves •to recommenddissolution of Par-
liament at a specific period, he was sure
that no person or Member who had ever been a
servant of her Majesty would approve of such a course.
It was impossible to say the particular hour, day, or
week, or even month, at which they would pledge
themselves to recommend a dissolution.—(liear.) Cir-
cumstances,
as he had said before, might render
impolitic if not impossible the fulfilment of
such an undertaking. All he. said was, that
after the business which they deemed absolutely
necessary and indispensable had been terminated, they
should humbly. recommend her Majesty to dissolve the
present Parhament—e(Cheers from the Govern-
ment benches)—and as he wished no misconcep-
tion to exist on the subject, he should add,
with the full intention of recommending her Majesty to
summon the new Parliament during the present year.
—(Hear, hear.) Of course ho meant a bond fide sit-
ting, so that the policy of the Government might
be decided upon. He now only repeated what
he had previously attempted to convey to the House,
and. what he was sure was the intention of the First
Minister to communicate in another place. These were
the decisions and intentions they always had; and after
the declarations which were made he should not have
thought it was necessary to
,repeat them again to the
House.—(Loud Ministerial cheers.)
Mr. HUME thought the statement of the Right Hon.
Gentleman would be. satisfactory to all parties, and
suggested, in order that no further doubt might be
entertained, • that he . should state what were the
Measures the Government deemed necessary„—(Hear.)

The motion for adjournment until Monday was then
agreed :o.

HARWICH WRIT.

Mr. T. DUNCOMI3IMoved that Mr. Speaker do issue
his warrant to the clerk of the Crown to make out a writ for
the election of a bureess to serve in this present Parliament
for the borough of Harwich, in the room of Robert Wigram
Crawford, Esq , whose election has been determined to be
void. The Hon. Member said that when he made this mo-
tion on the previous evening, it was under the impression
that it was acceptable to that (the Opposition) side of the
Rouse, but be now found that the case was otherwise. He
Maintained that they were bound either to insist on inquiry
or to consent to the issuing of the writ. The report of the last
Committee contained no charge of corruption ; there was no
notice for an inquiry. Under such circumstances the H. use
would establish a dangerous preesdent by refusing to issue
the writ; a Minister, with a subservient majority at com-
mand, might take advantage of such a precedent to withhold
a writ for his own purpose for any length of time. The Right
Ron. Gentleman (Mr. Walpole) had stated that one reason
Why he had not advocated the issuing of the writ was, that
he did not wish the Government to be liable to the imputa-
tion of taking advantage of their position to obtain an addi-
tional supporter. That was a delicate scruple which he had
never witnessed before, and he hoped the wear an :1 tear of
(Ada' life would not remove such delicate sensibility -
-(Laughter.) He was told that his motion was to be op-
posed to prevent Sir Fitzroy Kelly from being returned. He
had nothing-in the world to do with that.—(Ministerial
cheers.) He would not even deprive the rotten borough of
Harwich of its electoral rights.— (Hear, hear.)
The question having been put,
Mr. BOUVERIE moved as an amendment that no war-
rant should issue during the present session. He dissented
from the Hon. Member's statement that the House had but
two courses to pursue—either to inquire or to issue the writ;
they might upon their own knowledge suspend the issuing
of the writ.—(Hear, hear.) They all knew the facts of the
case with regard to this borough without any more inquiry.
Suspension under such circumstances was quite a constitu-
tional practice. He had made a note of several cases. In
1700 it was ordered by the House, without a division, that
no writ should be issued during that session in the town of
Winchelsea; in 1714, there was a similar order with regard
to Clitheroe ; and there were many other cases of the same
kind. It could not, therefore, be said that what he now
proposed was unconstitutional. As Parliament would be
dissolved in two or three months, the result of issuing the
Writ would be, that there would be the most abominable cor-
ruption without any possibility of a remedy in sufficient time;
whereas its suspension would give the borough an opportu-
nity of becoming pure.
Mr. NEW DEGATE thought it very unjust that small
boroughs should be sacrificed on the shrine of a morbid sen-
sibility about corruption. If the inquiry were universal, not Leicester only, but even London would come under candem-
anon. It wasproved before the county court at Greenwich
that Mr. Salomona.hy his asenn:, gate orders for 0.40rg0-ox-
Panditure at public-houses, and that he escaped payment
through a statement that it would expose him to the opera-
tion of the Bribery Act.
the Sir DE L. EVANS did not think that the character of
tenant.farmers was concerned in the question before the
Rouse. - (Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. New-
negate) complained of the morbid sensibility of gentlemen
on that (the Opposition) side of the House with regard to
corruption, but the Government supported by the Hon.
Gentleman and his friends had also introduced a Bill for the
Purpose of putting down corrupt practices at elections. The
ease of Harwich was a very peculiar one; in no other ho-
rough had such malpractices been committed. The Right
ote Gentleman ( Hr. Walpole) was unable on the previous
rer.ting to, point out a single case of a similar gross charac-
the rT, but u the House had thought fit to refuse its assent to
motion for inquiry, he did not think there was a fair
Strntel for suspending the writ.—(Hear.)
Mr. K SEYMER said that there was no proof of corrup-
Zteltsit the recent electiona for the borough. Allegations in
lon petitions were not evidence.—(Hear, hear.) With
regard to the former cases of corruption there had been a con-
donationwri: of the offence by the House allowing the re-issuo of
Mr. Divide, divide.")
. • ROEBUCK had in 1812 moved for a Committee to in-
cipturoorefionfto the case of Harwich. Before that Committee full
adduced ;the'extensive corruption having been practised was
founded a and. on the report of that Committee he had
should n motion, that the writ for the borough of Harwich
tearaot
else re-issued. That motion was refused. Ten
had
pms,e,,Paal since that time, no further bribery had
again refused an inquiry into the state of the case had been
the writ 70, and yet the House was now asked to suspend
suspension 4no ground of the former malpractices. The
the sooner lot the writ was a most improper proceeding, and
Mr. lIRIGTI'I7 stopped the better. - (Hear, hear. )
come of the me as at a loss to understand what had be-
Roebuck). In 187 Y of his Hon. and Learned Friend ( Mr.
of bribery at the 11 Mr. Attwood was unseated on account
was something eetion in the year 1847 (Hear.) There
Ron. Friend the Meet lhoeical sequence in the motion of his
Rouse had refused to— Member tor Finstmry, who said that as the
grant the inquiry they ought to allow
the writ to be issued. But as the question could not be
troaiamed.ineLthe fsorthcoming election, the House ought not
enen;TgonlLlet*.ePoeisible for- any malpractices that might
fore subinieluttniog of the writ, and he should there-
port the aneend..._._!'as the duty of the Government te sup-
Sir R H. Wailtg
said it was the duty of Parliament on
the occasion oe va
of it up ; exeePtions weW, at once to provide for the filling
There had been no special Only made on special reports.
had been proved
aeince4B427Port of bribery, because none
pned under these
it was most unjust and
inir.ro
Of the writ.—ear.) rto continue the suspension
Mr. COBB(OLD supported the issuing
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the of the writ.
the Member for the University oe oxfo'll,lt, Hun. Gentleman
iSS an unparliamsntary Proceedin nnaudaisipyokseunspof this
writs had been from 1596 down
to the present time
With regard ode' teended,
except in a
and the issue of Writs directed not to be
solong nae,lpte,ri e(iwas
full House.--(Hear, hear.)
instance of corruption before the House he ow particular
some doubt, but as the writ.ha.d. been
racticai reason had been e he
did not see that any,
discontinuing the suspension. When
.be office urged for
concert with his Right
issaed, he'
Hon.
.Friend g (oSfirthGe.
-writ.
in
Y), agreed
to oppose the motion for the
opinion, as it Wergthlit
he had seen no reason to change his
opinion of the House that the writ should he
the Member for Ammar-
Would suggest to his Hon. Friend
hock to withdraw his amendment to the motion before the
Rouse.--( Hear, hear.)
„Mr. HUME was surprised at the course taken
abtyanthye..
Rouse, though he certaialy ought not to be surprised
thing. which occurred there.— (A laugh.) It was
notorious
that the last elections were attended by as great an amount
of bribery as the former.—(No, no.) It was true that the
last election was not set aside on the ground of bribery—
(Divide, divide) —but there was no doubt that bribery had
of
.
Prevailed, and he thought, therefore, that the suspension
the writ should be continued.—(Divide.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL considered the Noble Lord
a high Parliamentary authority, but the precedents which
he (Lord John Russell) had mentioned were all prior to
the passing of the Grenville Act. Was the Noble Lord pre-
pared to favour the House with any precedent applicable to
the peculiar circumstances? It was perfectly true that
in 1842 there was a strong representation submitted to the
House on the subject of bribery in Harwich, but the House
refused to make any inquiry into the circumstances, de-
claring that they were not sufficient to justify disfranchise-
ment.—(Hear,, hear.) If ever there was a condonation of
an offence, it was the conduct of Parliament towards Har-
wich.—(Hear, hear.) In 1847 an election took place for
Harwich, into which an inquiry took place. Mr. Attwood
was unseated by the report of the Committee. An Act of
Parliament had been previously passed, under the auspices
of the Noble Lord the Member for London, by which an
election committee was empowered to make inquiry into any
Charges of bribery which might be made and withdrawn,
or which were supposed not to have been-bona fide
prosecute& No such evidence, however, was taken
or required to he taken by the Committee which
sat in 1847 on the Harwich electioan,r for no allegations of bribery were made.—(gear,
hear.) He could not understand, therefore, why the House
Should have taken the extraordinary course of suspending
the writ. Since 1847 no acts of bribery had taken place,
the House had refused to issue a Commission of Inquiry, and
he thought it was the duty of the House to allow the
borough its representative.—(Hear, hear.) If they did not,
they would commit' an act of injustice. The :Noble Lord
said he had seen no reason to change his opinion, and yet he
suggested to the Hon. Member for Kilmarnock to withdraw
his amendment, and allow the writ to be issued. He (the
•!_ttorney•Goneral) did not think such a course consistent.
The Government would support the issuing of the writ.
Mr. ANSTEY said a few words, which from the general
ones of "Divide," and '• Oh, oh I" were quite inaudible.
DAM hi *Ural* lb.-A.4TM; Wil9 WM =able