The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-11 00:00:00

which were now ihrowing Leland into so g,r, at an ex- 4- ens oewi,,,, 4or • I -!'1.,•,•, 'h,- 1 1-..,1,•rd',. 'oo.ea""
cuarneet as an:, man cool.. be; bui. O. fled 0.. f; ti.ae.e, eee enete,. (
_, ,e , .. ~...„.-. ~, ~,nt iestaeez e la
whatever in telling the Right Hon. Gentleman that it ee consequence of the complicated nature of the tenure of
resorted to coercion he would find it to signally fail. It land in Ireland; and therefore he (Mr. Sedleir) hoped
was easy also to say that the Irish people were a nation that her Majeste's Government would give the House an
of assassins and murderers. He denied the assertion. intimation that the law of real property in that country
It was no such thing. It is you (exclaimed the Hon. would be put on a more rational basis before the close of
Members shaking his finger towards the Ministerial the present session of Parliament.
benches) -it is you who are the murderers and assassins Mr. B. OSBORNE said if there was any reason more
—the murderers and assassins of their reputation; urgent than another why something effectual should be
it is you who have scarcely left us anything done in the matter at issue, it was that to, do so would
worth the retaining. The Honourable Member next be to take away a claptrap which was used in Ireland
complained of the operation and effects of the to obtain seats in that House by people who had no
Encumbered Estates Act. That measure was practical knowledge whatever of the land question. lb
dispossessing the great mass of the landlords of Ireland; considered, however, that to support the measure of the
and the class substituted for them was composed of shop- Hon. Member was a waste of time, b, cause the question
keepers, shoemakers, tobacconists, and other tradesmen, that should be dealt with was compensation for improve-
with their 3,0001. or 4,0001. a piece. Regarding the Bill ments. He trusted, therefore, that the Government
of his Hon. Friend as a palliative for the existing state would do something to effect that object; though he was
of things in Ireland, he thought the House of Commons free to admit that they had very little encouragement to
would exhibit but little wisdom if they rejected it with proceed, as regarded the fewness of the suggestions
scorn. It was a rational, a proper, and a reasonable with which they were favoured, as well as the difference
measure; its principle was a principle of justice, and that existed between the views of the several sue'
therefore of peace; and he earnestly called upon the porters of the measure. Notwithstanding this, however,
House not to let that opportunity slip of performing an he (Mr. B. Osborne) believed that the south of Ireland
act of justice to the Irish people. was emerging from the storm, in despite of the violent.
Mr. HUME administered a reproof to Mr. Grattan speeches of the clerical agitators of the north. Al'
for the reckless manner in which he had charged the that an honest men c, uld ask, was compensation for
evils of Ireland upon the present Government. He also improvements made; but the measure of the Hon
condemned the one-sided view of the case as between Member wit; one for the encouragement of the'
landlords and tenants which was placed before the public theories of the Presbyterian agitators of the north
at tenant-right meetings in Ireland. Surely there were of Ireland, whom nothing would content but an
some gentlemen in the House who were capable of ex- entire change in the possession of property altogether,
plaining what it was the Irish people wanted, and what giving the landlords only the quit rent of the soil. There
it was their landlords objected to.—(Cries of w Hear, was, however, a difficulty in speaking out upon this sub-
hear.") Ever since he had kaown Ireland she had been ject in Ireland; but, nevertheless; the Bill of the BO'
in a most unfortunate state from misrule, and he had Member was looked on with great suspicion. That
lotely been in hopes that she was getting better; but it Hon. Gentleman had gone to the south in company
with
appeared that the Hon. Gentleman now complained of the Presbyterian agitators of the north; and anything
a new set of proprietors coming in with their 2,0001. like the language used by them he Cdr. B. Osborne) had
and 3,0001. a-piece, and that they were buying the lands never heard. The language imputed to the Catholic
which formerly lay almost useless, and applying their clergy was mild in comparison. If her Majesty's Go'
capital to their cultivation and improvement. T the his t vernment, therefore, knew their own interest, they s'eu
Hon Member complained of as a robbery and an injus- not let the question tide over this session, especially 00
tice —( t laugh.) Why, if anything were calculated to the eve of a general election. If, however, the notions
regenerate Ireland, surely it was tne introduction into of the Hon. Member for Rochdale on tenant-right were
' that country of men having capital to employ labour.— what he (Mr. B. Osborne) fancied them to be, from ail
(Hear, bear.) That was the very thing Ireland re- he could gather of his speech, he was quite certain the
quired. The Hon. Member complained, too, that the House would never sanction such communistic doctrines
people were being driven away; but if there were more as the Hon. Member propounded; for in no respect din
teen in Ireland than could find employment it was they seem to him (Mr. B. Osborne) to differ from those
manifestly for the benefit of the labourers themselves propounded by M. Proudhon, la propriete c'est
vol.-e'
that the surplus should leave Ireland. In his (Mr. (Hear. hear.) He should like to see an honest tenant'
Hume's) opinion the whole principle of tenant-right, as right Bill—a Bill for the protection of the landlord a'
uhderstoLd in Ireland, was a principle of communism— well as the tenant, seeing that it was well know°
no other than la propriete c'est vol. They ought to an Irish landlord might be considered very lucky
know what was the principle of the Hon. Gentleman's who got a quarter of his rent. He should vat
motion—what it would lead to if it was followed out— much wish a sensible Bill on the subject was introduce";
whether it would lead to the destruction of that property and the Hon. Member for Manchester had, he was i°.
which was the origin of all society. It would be impos- formed, a measure of that nature prepared, which Ile '
sible to propose any plan of tenant-right which would now called on him to produce. Half the coercion Bible
be applicable to the whole of Ireland any more than to for Ireland arose out of the defective state of the laft'
the whole of England. The proprietor of land and the regulating landed property in that country. To aim";
man who sought to hire it should be left at perfect cious alteration in that law he (Mr. B. Osborne) wa
freedom to make their own terms with each other. favourable; and he therefore thought it behoved bee khe
e:
Mr. ROCHE complained that the Government had jesty's Government to declare their intentions, for tl:
done nothing to elucidate the question. The greatest satisfaction of the people of Ireland, and not to gill"'
curse that could betel a country was to be afflicted in out the measure of the Hon. Member.
times of distress with a Government which either could Lord J. RUSSELL—I shall state generally the enures;
not or would not assist it. Nothing could be more fatal pursued by her Msjesty'a Government in respect to 15...
to the true interests of the country than to have recourse question. We found, when we came into office, toed'
te the old, ineffective, and mischievous system of co- certain Bills had been introduced on the subject, du
ercion, as was threatened by the Right Hon. Gentle- these we took as the foundation of those measuro
man (Sir G. Grey). Among the evils that had called which we proposed. In more than one session su.„,"
for immediate redress was the present tyrannical law of sequently my Right Honourable Friend the Secrettlii:o
distraint in Ireland. It acted most oppressively and un- for Ireland introduced Bills having reference to ' 0
jusdy in preventing the tenant from obtaining any question. One, at least, of these was sent befa,reeo,
credit in a commercial sense, without which there could Select Committee of the House, on which were the ee,,eve.
be no prosperity in the country. Let them, then, assi- and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Keogh), the ktr.,
milate the law of distraint in the two countries. Two Member for Carlow, and other lion. Members. "Pa
years ago the Speech from the Throne stated that the Right Hon. Friend the Secretary
law of landlord and tenant was in a most unsatisfactory that Committee with great assiduity, and his report 'toy
state, and recommended its consideration to the Parlia- me was, that after many discussions an agreement tl;
went. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ire- the clauses to be altered and amended was arriveo, lib,
for Ireland atten'en.
land accordingly introduced a Bill on the question with a That Bill proceeded uo further, though it was one„ h,Vii,
great flourish, but it was suffered to hang up day after day I hope, came under the designation of a " sensible Ptiii
during the rest of the session, until at its close it . was though I must say that this was no proof that it-tveti,
sacrificed with the other " innocents." He now asked be acceptable in Ireland—(Laughter)—for this reasitto
the Government, (ben, if they meant to do anything I found it to be the butt of a great agitation in mated
with the question? Let them know what sort of a Go- country, and that the agitators on this question net°6i,,,,
vernment they had for Ireland :if they did not know to it as the perfection of an infamous and oPPreBtre,
the best let them know the worst; but let them not re- measure. That was the way it was met in that coup,
,!pis
ceive such a reply as that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, After this great excitement which had been raisetbo
whieb was in effect tbat he would let the Bill be brought the subject I had an interview with those gentlemento
in and remain before the House far a time, but that no advocated most loudly the rights of the tenants; Waal
further should it go. Nothing could be more unsatis- result was, that it was quite clear the clauses of the,,l'ip
factory than the present state of things; the country would not carry out the object which they beussed
was becoming depopulated ; during the last year a view, and that, consequently, if it was Paeor
quarter of a million of people bad emigrated from Ire- into a law they would call meetings all
L'eect„,
tend to one port of the United States alone (New York), Ireland, and create a great agitation on the SlTtbill
and it the population went on diminishing at that rate, So far from settling the question, therefore, I fan" still
as there was reason to fear, the country would be in a Bill would be the means of exciting the countrYow,
short time a desert. Then there were those shocking more, and it was not pressed forward. It did not f(s.'ite..
aid disgraceful murders which, according to the Tenant- however, that it was not a sensible Bill because the
Joe
Right Association, which was well-informed on the sub- rations that were proposed to be made in it by
relations of wide'
not, in my of the case, t the
jeer, arose solely from the unsatisfactorygentlemendid viewdeal
landlord and tenant. The Government ought to see with the rights of property. The Hon. Baroner lit
ig
whether that statement of the Tenant-Right Association Member for Given has alluded to the sort of tenant" .bat
was founded in fact or not. that exists in the north of Ireland, and I must sal 'OO-
- MOORE said that the history of the present re- I approve of it. But one of the things which those g_ it
lotions between landlord and tenant in Ireland was this: tlemen wished to do with the Bill was to introdee.; 0
between 200 and 300 years ago the forces of England with the force of law into the south of Irelane, wl:e',,ree
had driven the Catholic population of Ireland into Con- has never existed, and where, if introduced as tboi tr3eir
naught, giving them the alternative of Connaught or posed it, the effect would be to take away a part ti, that
hell, as it was said at the time. Since that time the property from the present proprietors of lane
crass.
landlords had scarcely reclaimed an acre, dug a drain, portion of the country, and confer it upon other P rood
built a farmyard, or made a fence, for the improvement You may say that these are tenants who have iu3p
ifr-
of the land. But the people, thus driven out to the un- the land by the judicious expenditure of capital er_Teo 0
cultivated districts, had by their own toil, and with the and there are some I admit to whom this deser'r, 1 la
sweat of their bros.' , reclaimed the howling wilderness; applicable, but the measure proposed
and as they progressed year after year and generati n its application—is was wholesale in its op,,rs 00
after generation, the landlords grasped and confiscated —and consequently it gave advantages '
the 13$(i
the property which the tenants had made, and had driven idle and to the improvident man at . had
them De a
them further into the wilderness, to again reclaim and pease of the landed proprietor, to which ewe,
again to confiscate. Was not that a great moral wrong, no sort of claim whatsoever. t, therefore, adlcoeld
if not a legal one? and what he and those who thought to me to be quite impossible that such a law fts 7be the
with him asked was, that it should be made a legal consent to introduce on the subject would not
trail
wrong—that some protection should be given to that pro- source of peace for the country, but, on the ecestoot;
perty which the toil of the tenant created. Whether the would be the fertile source of agitation and ex irogb t
Bill of his Hon. Friend would have that effect it was for The Hon. Member for Manchester was good Ibisofill
the Helm to decide; but every just and humane man transmit to me certain propositions, the result o:___„,eetev_
was geneet!tio
should be prepared to give the question special conside- observation, as a summary of the means which 71,f rho
ration, and if he had any prejudices on it, to give them themselves to him for the permanent improvetnal"seot is
in favour of the weak and the oppressed. land tenure in Ireland. These propositions,i .be Ow
Sir J. YOUNG, on the part of the large and influen- Ireland. where they were very much approveDeersi clt th_s,
dal class with which be was connected, and who re- members of the Government, by the law offitd sorb
garded the relations of landlord and tenant as in by no Crown, and by other persons of experience sl. wbich.,
means a satisfactory state, repudiated the interpretation rity on the subject; but by reason of the causv:,,to tb,t'f,
which the Hon. Gentleman sought to put on the gees- have stated, they all came to the resolution.otte igloo!
don. He had been unable to hear the speech of the Hon. would not lead to a better state of the relatt
in.' is was
Gentleman who introduced the subject (Mr. Crawford), existed between landlord and tenant in Irelse_u_ssoces?'"
who had certainly paid great attention to the question, therefore, impossible for me under these drone; eV 11;
and for whose integrity he had the highest respect, but undertake to introduce a measure on the sultllce teesPeec
from the mode in which the Hon. Gentleman had ap- then, Icame to the resolution—considering fittosgaelo
preached the question, and from his preconceived no- of the people of Ireland—considering the e'9icieti°Ptbe
Lions upon it, he was hopeless of any satisfactory solu-
of the propositions that had been reade-erc°ool in
tiocsroe
tion of the question being arrived at through his means. fact, all the circumstances of the case, . 0 n oto
The Bill proposed to give the tenant a part ownership in resolution that there would be no advantage propesio
the land—to create, in fact, a divided ownership; and it ducing those measures which alone I cow aself, !so.
dealt with a variety of interests which the Honourable this House on the subject. The questioat;o edge," ic„
Gentleman perhaps did not mesa to touch, and which you come to legislate on it, is one of ingae' olouledenee
it would be most unjust and improper to deal with. The Hon. Member for Carlow said that w 0016. clop.
Compensation to the improving tenant was, he admit- troduce, by means of legislative measure Fie - P.
i•
tell the coo
ted, a question of the deepest importance; but it was between landlord and tenant in Ireland.in oonfideoce
to
fallacious to base any measure for that purpose on the Member, however, that I do notofth_ k
Parliament, bli„fgo'
tenant-right of Ulster, which was supposed, but er- be created in this respect by Act
roneously, to benefit that part of Ireland, and to be it must arise as a necessary .
s romoted on the 00, t lif
connected with its comparative prosperity. He was ciety in which good feeling
landlord,iPand on the other' par
,
well acquainted with th© operation of tenant right; by the conduct, of thet n
an t .
consequence of a state ;par/
, rote'
for in no part of the country was it more firmly the conduct of the
established thee in that with which he was Mr. SADLEIR . saidl the Noble Lord misuriund es'
Ha only decried that the bad laws which 0'
connected; and from his knowledge of its effects, him,
repealed. th°
fisted sheuld be et
he pronounced it an evil to the tenant. For, This, however, liesetuetli
i Lead J.
supposing him a solvent peasant, he, by purchasing the
bottom of the whole question. You cannot Pr", cati
tenant-right of the outgoing tenant, paid what was
legislation a feeling of confidence as regards agr'' 4,601
equivalent to a fine in money, the use and interest of RUSSELL—
property ; it must arise from the satistactory r;gatra
which were lost to him during his occupancy; while if he
where there is no lease, and where the
f of the parties'. Take the case of places i° Wl°
150d10 el
should become insolvent, the fine, or purchase-money hoe
the tenant right, served only as a fund out of whicht
to
tenant conjointly erect buildings of great lionYai ete
landlord was paid the arrears of rent which happened
betack- land, in perfect confidence that neither g,isk ii:
mercial ,
be due. The only person benefited by it advantage of the other. Then, again, ' I;coLei
when the case of Scotland, where lete•es are of a more Pureca oil °clef
could not pay his rent and live, ,and whrso
renting landlord, who let his land so high tthen,hwaats the tenant
out of the price
tenant quitted, paid himself his a_
of the custom of tenant- occupation fora term of 18 or 20 years, brirb'ota fee
of the tenant-right. The origin o
-English settlers there, some and where the tenant en lose,
his calculations of the profit to be deriver, both' ie„
right was the practice of the g
who were engaged in cultivation ot the land dune that period. I uch cel;/
the partit, are satisfied. If,g however, bit
...it, 0
the „e
the
' savings in the
ytt:neyenwnieree making deuce existed, I defy any Government to it frawity+
trade, investing their land in this manner,
two or three hundred years bscek,
ans thet legislative measures —(Hear ) But even it Y° eitflcutio
a prudent investment.
and tenant were to he improved, law • h . will .
' under the erroneous im
the relations of itindi"d aand simplification of the various T' in t e case there be BO end of
landlord
to er
but by the consolidation
stunt hand, such
PIT test 1 not that
b
the subject by a comprequisite farna• buildings. If you say, bowe itaprimej
laws on an he saw near him (Mr. Napier e of the 'O/whew
of a Learned Genders
the
Gentleman
. tenant is absolutely entitled to the vain
the i ~ot
was understood to be
might as well say that
the black-mail of the dlord te 0' ll
Highlands in the matter. Suppose that a lan
ee air ,er 0
of Scotland had proved an advantage to that district, five farms ot 10 acres acres each into euvotiee Ivo be
and ought to have been introduced into acres, will you say that he shall pay com Pen., ,iertoPjeel
the Lowlande.,
ss to hold that tenant-right was a benefit that on; the buildings on each of these farms, ivlleuetros of he
sht to
be extended to the whole of Ireland. will be obliged to knock down the greatest
_Fcf tbeehers
Mr. SADLEIR said the Hon. Baronetappeared in pursuance of his design? This is only etw,_rje, wto
to
misunderstand the Bill. He (M Sadleir)lc s In a country like Ireland particW!' (3' by iili.
r. could not ea I.' ' satiate of of
agree with him that it afforded encourag•,.. litigation is looked upon as a sort of Pesteed
e., oe
dolent tenants. The Hon. Baronet hadement to lex-
people, if you introduce such a measure, n 8 greets., 0
given an
ample of the operation of hof proving the land, you will have continual so:Lereforoal
t e custom in the north things '`' goon :cots
Ireland; but he (Mr. Sadleir ld • flustra- under its provisions. In this state of t Ist• hi f
). Cou give many i
dons of the state of thin south, the end of the last session of Parlianaents the se rot
gs which prevailed in the Bill On . 'Ott SO
where tenants who had spent lar sums on permanent I was not prepared to introduce a _ Bin ,60
improvements were treated loge l tenants in the
year yßut it is asked—if you do not introduce artentleru tael
the Hon. t' of to
l soles of the Encumbered Estates Court, and noticed to —why not permit the Bill of
eewoyer,
~,0000.
elute on the transfer of the properties, all their improve- Pass? Those who ask this questionte,nD"of feat to
',ig
wants being seized by the incoming landlord, and no havei no exact knowl4.3dtgeisofj;)ethetheeness: what
loci 'We brrof
compensation whateveemade. He (Mr,
rsiesnddi efierll was oriits object. But, h
it
that. not only void ill
bound Co say that the Bill of his Hon F veryd
idn s
ici n
Bt ei nlit
ewn,r, us e
Ives, but that we let in (0149 gia ci co
h.ould be
much short of the legal remedy that
hse
freely
admittedalie which° we know nothing of the clauses. .4•Bre boo') toil
i
to meet the evil; but, neverthel
:sat:tidal improvem have clauses of some use and as such we t agree ca
that its adoption would be a su_ . .. . ent to .
into
But I eaerk° I,od, f' 001
t Ireland. He asked, however, who- take it consideration.. k fit Pei': ~ Co ed
the existing state a be tenant-right througue-
m caber for dote
hle that the Government could reject there should
Cher it was poosi . .
the agree the
with
Hon. Baronet the i..-e- !pit op
nothtng in matter themselves?not be 11 be
the measure and do .
then
that not on should such a measure
..
,b,
n, the best thing f
II that was their intentld they
'that whenever it is introduced It ' lie
could do would be to reject it at once; for continued now, but go /
subject would only have the effect of of a temperate character. s tha° tea
d tha • ro 801
suspense on the . Mr. KEOGH said it appeare ,0 int ~,
itation which lay at the foundation of i il)°
increasing that ag ,
Ireland. After Majesty's Government were unwilling ',it' th.e , ,
agrarian crime in the various --e •subject, a"' Frier" ols
all
ade by the Go msasure of their own upon the
lio- • sh°
declarations m _ _ Vernment, however, .
willing to toy with that of his go it icae
when in opposition, and after the various measures which quite p ptiflitOn 18461 te°
Member for Rochdale, leat their o
they had given notice of and even introduced while in
d•ce their government in Ireland• le° ereseeti ere
power, it could not be possible that they would permit preju i.
Prevailed in Ireland more than ?" laelan del
another session to pass without introducing some one or crime pr
g Yeovil) Gentleman the Secretor,' 1 Teirotleced, Dili
other of that series of measures which they had on so
ni-ht that. the Noble Lord's Bill, the° 113.3 passetiou o'
many occasions admitted to be necessary for Ireland. As posed
rho repression $ the 's ,(P
the law stood, all permanent improvements fell on themeasure for the settlement et clued. ci 00,1
occupying tenant, the landlords being unable or unveil- tbat a
d and tenant should be intro bo soye liori
landlord
hog to expend money in that direction; the tenant was, ) Who, then, were the parties ri Noble „,e 01
therefore, naturally attached to the laud, and necessarily bear.'
coquetted with the question? The s ci"" Joe
great the tbe e
-telt that he was in a sort of partnership with the land- himself had also admitted that the roe 01 ti, fro 2'
;lord. It was consequently desirable that some alteration
ohrimme in Ireland, was the uncertaine nature
11°1.,r af°.
should take place in the law as regarded improvements,
tenure and landlord qu, erica. The Na Dill ie
SS it was not to be supposed that an improving tenant .
the time he came into office, brought lu
mould coileent to occupy laud as a yearly tenant without i