The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-27 00:00:00

EASTERN ARCHIPELAGO COMPANY.

Mr. MACGREGOR moved for copies of all correspondence
between the Board of Trade and Mr. Wise respecting the
charter of the Eastern Archipelago Company during the
year 1847.
Mr. HENLEY said a considerable amount of cor-

respondence took place between the company and
the Board of Trade before the charter was
granted, but as litigation was now going on in the courts
of law for setting aside the charter, on the ground that it had
been obtained by fraud, he did not think it right to lay be-
fore the House any documents which might bear on a ques-
tion between private 'parties, which was still pending.
After a few words of explanation, the amendment was
withdrawn, and the House went into Committee.
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Colonel DUNNE rose to introduce the Ordnance Esti-
mates to the Committee, and, in doing so, he remarked that
the estimates themselves were so clear, as they appeared upon
the votes, that they required no explanation whatever,
(Hear, hear.) The estimates he need hardly observe were
prepared by his predecessors in office, and they appeared to
him to have been prepared with a due and proper
attention to economy.— (Hear, hear.) The ordnance service
was never in a more efficient state than it was at present,
and, notwithstanding, there had been an increase
in the number of men in all the other items
of the estimates, with the exception of No. 9,
which related to the survey of Scotland, which this
year was increased by 10,0001, the votes were reduced.—
(Hear, hear.) The increase in the number of
men would of course necessitate an increase
in the expenditure ; but, on the whole, the
estimates showed a reduction upon those of last year. (Hear,
hear.) He concluded by moving that the number of men
for artillery and. ordnance be voted at 15,582.—(Hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS admitted that the ordnance was in a
state of great efficiency, while the estimates showed a reduc-
tion over those of last year, but as compared with 1835,
they had increased from 1,152,0001. to 2,470.000/., which
he thought was a disgraceful circumstance.—(Haar, hear.)
The fact was the military services of this country were
wretchedly managed, and general officers who were receiv-
ing large sums from the State in the shape of pay were
allowed to augment.their incomes by taking the clothing con-
tracts of their different regiments.—(Hear, hear.) That
was a system which the Committee ought to
insist should at once be put a atop to, and he demanded that
it should be done now.—(Hear, hear.) The commissary
estimates, which should consist of one item only, he
found were divided into two, and he was strongly
ir.clined to suspect the Treasury exercised no control
over these estimates, or it would have taken care that the
recommendations which were made by the Commission of
1837 were fully carried out.—(Hear, hear.) Had that been
done, the estimates would have been immediately reduced,
and the foundation for a rigid system of economy established
for the future.— (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE had no answer to make to the observa-
tions of the Hon. Gentleman, but he was glad to learn from
him that he intended to offer no opposition to the estimates.
—(Hear.) With regard to his last remark, however, he begged
to assure the Hon. Member that many of the recommenda-
tions had been carried into effeet.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. A. SMITH again took the opportunity of pressing
upon the Government the propriety of doing something to
increase the comforts of the soldier while in barracks.

Colonel DUNNE said he was ready to give that subject
his best attention, but the Hon. Member would see, that as
the matter would involve an increase of expense, it was one
which the Committee ought themselves to deal with.— ( Hear.)
Colonel AN SON assured the Committee that these estimates
had been prepared with a due attention to economy, and so
Hon. Members would find if they would only take:ths trouble
to :examine before discussing them.--(Hear.) They could
be easily understood, and ha his:Hon. Friend the Member
for Lambeth taken the trouble to make himself master of
them he would not haue fallen into the error of supposing
that the estimate this year exhibited an extravagant in-
crease over those of 1835. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said many important changes might
be made both in the army and the ordnance
with great advantage to the public service ;
but, nevertheless, as the estimates were not those of the
Present Government, he would make no opposition to them.
—(Hear, hear.) He would, however, recommend the War
Department to turn its attention to the improvements which
had been suggested, and see if they could not
be carried into effact.—(Hear, hear.) At all events, unless
they did so they would not obtain the estimates so easily
as they were getting them now, for in no department was
there more room for economy and improvement than in
that of the army and ordnance.
After a few words from Mr. EWART, the vote was agreed
to, as was also a money vote for the pay of the men,
am unting to 749,2541.

296,5561. for the Commissariat and Barrack supplies.
75,589/. for Ordnance Offices, Tower, and Pall-mall.
283,313/. for the salaries and contingencies of establish-
ments in the United Kingdom and the colonies.
121,616!. for the wages of artificers, labourers, and others.
A vote of 176,453/. having been proposed for Ordnance
stores for land and sea service,

Mr. HUME said that complaints had been made that the
guns which we used were not serviceable; and he thought
that we ought not to be remiss in placing in the hands of our
soldiers the best means of defence wi h which they could be
supplied. But he understood from the public prints that
that had not hitherto been done.

Colonel DUNNE said that he had found no indication of
any neglect upon the point among the proper authorities.
Since the year 1850 the Noble Duke the Commander-in-
Chief had turned his attention to the subject; and the pre-
sent Master-General of the Ordnance was continuing the
experiments which had been instituted for the purpose
of ascertaining what were the best fire-arms. He (Colonel
Dunne) had no doubt but our soldiers would be armd.
other
country.
General ANSON said that misrepresentations bsoad-
ut forth upon that subject which he felt reqnrimresd in
from flint
ce. In the year 1838 we had chand our a
had been deemed
some
no-
t been
to percussion locks • and the musketswhich
on such a sub.i.,_t
most efficient by the highest authoritie! p
u this country. yr c
ber
had been adoted, and were still in use m
ery Bon. Ur'.
percussion musket, and ev
liar description
had a simple
ece the soldier
mast be aware that for military serviceasked why
It was frequently
as any private gentle-
shouldof arm was required.
foiling-Piepeculiar service •
not have as good a
o through a _ ,
man. But the soldier had to g
holt
. private gentlemen, and
form - danger of accidents from
he had harder work to per
to
the
his fire-arms were exposede exempt. In the years 1816 and
which other fire-arms were
introduced on the continent in the
1847 some novelties were
and after some experiments had
of fire-arms;
manufactureof testing their utility they had
the purpose
been made for
ther hastily, as he thought, by certain fo-
reign adopted raents.
Of these novelties the principal was
reig Governrn
at the breech, which had been
• sket loaded adopted,
thena
understood, by the Prussian Government only.
as he
t had supplied 10 000
That Gaveyamen , or 12,000 of their
musket.
ith that The invention was a
troops w
very ingenious one, and to any
.one not conversant with 1 would
mi-
litary serviceappear that such a weapon would
~,ive a great advantage to the soldiers who employed it, in
gonsrquence of the much greater rapidity with which it
enabled him to discharge his fire. But ho believed it had
been found so inefficient in the Prussian army that the
Prussian Goverianent had ceased to furnish their troops with
it. In the year 1847 the attention of the authorities at the
Ordnance department and at the Horse Guards had been
directed to the improvement of our arms, and his Noble
Friend the late- head of the Ordnance department and the
Noble Duke the Commander-in-Chief had formed a Com-
mittee, consisting 'of the most competent officers, for the
purpose of inquiring into the matter, and receiving any pro-
posals that might be made for the improvement of the mus-
kets placed in the hands of our soldiers. That Committee
had met at various periods since the year 18,7. They had
!Age trial of eeyerel descriptions of nwalteta logicled at the

breech, produced by seven different makers. But
all those muskets had failed. They could no lotk,er be
worked after they had been tried for twenty round., ie con-
sequence of an escape of gas, or of some derangement
in the fixed machinery • and yet they had been made of the
very best materials. Since that time various other inven-
tions had appeared—there were, for instance, the muskets of
the Chasseurs de Vincennes, which he understood had re-
cently been supplanted by the Minie muskets. Those lat-
ter arms had been tried at Woolwich, and had there been
found to succeed. But he believed that we ought not has-
tily to adopt any of those improvements. Complaints had
been made of the great weight of our muskets and of the
great incovenience which they caused to our soldiers; and
it had been said that a musket with a small bore would be
as effective as a musket with a large one. But the Noble
Duke the Commander-in-Chief had always maintained very
strongly, and had told him over and over again, that he felt
indebted in a great measure for the success of his armies in
foreign countries to the weight and the size of the bore in
our muskets. He (General Anson) found that the French
were endeavouring to make their muskets of as large a bore
as ours, and they felt satisfied of the greater efficiency of
our muskets. He would not say that we were
bound to adhere to the size of our bore; for it was at
present ascertained that the weight of the ball was all
that was required, and that, although the bore might not
be as large as formerly, it would be as efficient as ever if it
were to carry the same weight of lead. Attacks had been
daily been directed against the Government for not having
taken that subject into their serious consideration. And he
would venture to say that there was not at this moment an
army in Europe, or in the world, that could beat our troops
with their present arms. He was satisfied that, although
they might not load so quickly, and although they might
not have so deadly an aim at five or six hundred yard, as
the troops of some other countries—he was satisfied that,
with their present arms in their hands, they would be found
superior to any other soldiers in the world. He should
observe that it would be ridiculous to suppose that two
armies could fight at a distance of five or six hundred yards.
Much more depended on the discipline of the troops than on
anything else. They had been told they did not give suffi-
cient ammunition practice to their troops; but if the troops
made use of the quantity of ammunition given them, small
though it was, there could be no cause of complaint. He
entirely agreed with Hon. Gentlemen who said this country
should keep at peace with other nations. He more than agreed
with them, because he thought this country was bound to
set the example.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir W. CLAY was glad to find the possibility acknow-
ledged of obtaining something less cumbrous for the soldiery
than the musket now in use.—(Heer, hear.) He wished to
call the attention of the Committee to one matter, namely,
that when the military were furnished with better arms,
they should be practised in the use of them.—( Hear, hear.)
At present, the allowance of ball cartridge for practice was
only thirty rounds per man per annum, or little more than
one opportunity of firing one shot at a mark in every fort-
night.—(Hear, hear.) As to the bravery of the Brit sh
troops, there could be no second opinion, but then the autho-
ritiea would be grsativ to blame if th&v left nyfrvthinz to the
gallantry and discipline of the troops without properly arming
them also.—(Hear, hear.) The House and the authorities
were bound to see that in return for his bravery, the soldier
should have the very best arms with which to defend himself.
Mr. F. MAULE was glad to find that the opinion re-
garding the inefficiency of the arms used by the British
troops had fallen off very much, However, from what had
been stated by the Hon. Gentleman who last addressed the
House. it was clear the impression was not altogether
removed. He (Mr. F. Maule) was of opinion that a better
description of arm than that used at present was not as
yet found ; and, therefore, he hoped the House would not

be led away by reports of new inventions and modern inno-
vations. Of course he had no objection that a portion of
their regiments should be equipped with this new arm; but
that the whole force should be supplied with it, he hoped
would not take place If it should—apart from the expense
and caution attending it —their arms might oalculate on
more reverses than victories. With regard to ball practice,
he should say that in order to perfect the troops in that
branch of their duty it was necessary they should have places
set apart for the exercise, which they had not at present,
seeing the localities in which their barracks were situated.
He thought it would be a great improvement if such places
were procured; but as to the general condition of their
troops, he believed he might say they never possessed a more
efficient army than at present.— (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE could aesure the House that the Master
General of Ordnance was using the greatest possible caution
in reference to the adoption of the newly-improved arm, and
also that it was not the ietentioa to arm the whole army
with that description of fire-arm.—(Hear, hear.) The
Master General had also directed his attention to the matter
of, ball practice, and would do everything in his power to
improve it.—(Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 449 0-28/. for works, buildings, and repairs,
Mr. 11 UME called attention to the expenditure in the
Channel Islands, and suggested that a survey cf the works
now in progress at Jersey and Alderney should be made. In
his opinion they were only throwing thousands into the sea.
He had also to complain that a sum of 45,0001. had been ex-
pended at Portsmouth, on the authority of the Secretary of
State, but not authorised by Parliament.
Colonel DUNNE said he would make inquiry into the
subject.
General ANSON said the works were commenced on the
express recommendation of the committee of ordnance esti-
mates, and he hoped the House would agree to works that
had been already sanctioned.
Mr. HUME thought the Secretary of State, except in
cases of emergency, should not be authorised to commence
the erection of fortifications without the previous sanction of
Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
General ANSON —These works had the deliberate con-
sideration of the Government. Bat of course the House can
now reject them if it should please.
Mr. iVALPOLE said all that had been done was this.
Before the estimate was submitted to Parliament sanction
had been given to the proposal of the estimate, but not to
its adoption by the Secretary of State, with a view that its
should be subsequently submitted to the consideration
of the House.—(Hear, hear.) That was all that had
been done.
General ANSON—No works are commenced until sanc-
tioned by this House.
Mr. HUME could state that evidence existed to prove
the very opposite.
Mr. WYLD hoped some attention would be given to the
defenceless state of the coast from Bristol southward.
Colonel DUNNE replied the Master General had his at •
tention already directed to that portion of the coast.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 107,907/. for the scientific branch of the
ordnance,

Mr. WYLD hoped the officers in general and military
students would be engaged in the work of surveying. It
was the case in all the armies of Europe with the exception
of the English.
Sir D. NORREYS hoped the one-inch map, which was
found to be of great value in Ireland, would be speedily pub-
lished.
After a few words from Mr. EWART and Mr. CHAR-
TE RIS,

Colonel DUNNE said the six-inch map, now completed,
was about to be reduced to one inch, which would be found
very beneficial to Ireland, particularly as regarded geolo-
gical purposes. He should be happy to support any measure
which would tend to improve the scientific education of the
officers of the army.
General ANSON thought it would be very desirable that
these maps should be rendered more generally available to
the public, and sold at a rate which would produce some-
thing to the Exchequer.
Mr. CHARTERIS said the Committee had examined a
number of engineers and other persons, who had given it as
their opinion that the six-inch scale was too large for prac-
tical purposes, and that the one-inch scale would be the
most advisa3le to adopt. The saving, by adopting the latter
scale, would be about 500,000/.
Sir D. NORREYS said all the persons who had con-
sidered the subject in Ireland were of opinion that the six-
inch scale was the best for practical purposes. It would be
easy to reduce the large to the small scale, but it would be
impossible to enlarge the small scale if the survey was ever
made upon the one-inch scale.
Mr. COWAN said he had the honour of serving on the
Committee, and the evidence in favour of the one-inch scale
was overwhelming. There was a prospect now of the sur-
vey being completed in ten years, but if the six- h
was adhered to it would not be completed for half
-ai-nceen t scaler
y .

After a few words from Mr. HOME,
Colonel DUNNE said no doubt the six-inch scale was
found very convenient for proprietors, but it never was in-
tended for their exclusive benefit.
The vote wes then cgreed to, as also a vote of 172,356/.
to defray the expense of the non-effective service, military
and civil.
Mr. HAMILTON then moved a vote 0f447,602/. to defray
the charges of the commissariat establishment. He ob-
served that the vote was a considerable reduction on that
of last year, notwithstanding that there was an increase of
49,7761. in the vote for the Cape of Good Hope, owing to
the particular circumstances in which that colony was
placed, and an additional vote of 6,2761. for Western Aus-
tralia, for the establishment of a convict depot.
The vote was then agreed to, as was also 43,599/. for the
half-pay pensions,:and allowances of the commissariat esta-
blishment.
The House then resumed.
EXCHEQUER-BILLS. .
Mr. HAMILTON then moved that the House resdooln
itself into Committee of Ways and Means, which being
redone
lobwyepsrtivraattee
Hiceono.f
tMheemyebaerrlymoEvxecdhtehciaaterl.7b,9iitoool.. be raised for the
stherev
chthee-
qiils4lr.r.billllsU(AllEiikdin)q,uwirehdicahs
heto htehleievraetde
to
of
bientheirgehsteronthEaxn
public had a righ. to expect? .
possible.
Mr. HAMILTON said he believed it iti wasper thee ecent.
t .
Mr. HUME said that money never was so
_low as it was at
present, and he believed that the bills 2 would sell very well
at Id., for capital could be
parties. • The
Government had to rake the price of the
ought to bills
when money was dear, and ought to lower them whet.
1 money
was cheap.
Alderman THOMPSON agreed that the public
have money as cheap as possible, but also thought
was very inconvenient to vary the rate of • that it
Exche-
quer bills too often.—(Hear, hear.) N •
interest on
to have Exchequer bills at Nothing was worse than
Bills of exchange might very likely
a discount, or even
, at par.
rates, but they ran fir shorter be obtainable at low
If the late Chancellor of the Exchequer
periods than Exchequer Bills.
of interest some time since xchequer had reduced the rate
might safely have d the result had shown that he
risk, and it was one so; still then would have been
thought that always a a
at the p nice and delicate question, and he
acted most
Mr. HUME prudently in not taking such a step.
said the bills were now at a premium of 77+.,
and think ,
the bringing it was right to have such interest. On
forward at,
,atit.ip of the report he should bring the subject
The resolution was
then
... agreed to, and the House resumed.

MUTINY BILL.
Mr. BERESFORD moved the second reading of the Mu-
tiny Bill.—Agreed to.
Mr. HAMILTON moved the Marine Mutiny Bill, which
also passed that stage.
COPYRIGHT LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr. HENLEY moved the report on this Bill, which was
received and agreed to.
ST. ALBAN'S DISFRANCHISEbIENT BILL.

This Bill was read a third time and passed.
APPREIIESION OF
_DESERTERS BILL.

On the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. ANSTEY rase to oppose it. He said it was a Bill to
enable her Majesty to carry into effect arrangements with
certain foreign powers for the apprehension of deserters
from skips coming to this country. The preamble stated
that such arrangements had been concluded. With what
powers? Perhaps with the Czar of Russia. Some years
ago several Polish sailors deserted from a Russian ship
of war, and escaped to this country, where they were pro-
tectedagainst pursuit. Such was the sort of case to which
this Bill would apply, and in which the unfortunate men
would be delivered up to what might often be certain death.
If such " arrangements had been made as the preamb'e re-
ferred to, they were disgraceful to this country. Who were
these " foreign powers?" Was Austria one, or the present
usurper of Fra"" by at WM tlic Wilmot hold out to