The Sun.
London, England, 1864-03-11 00:00:00

THE ST' N, LO

progress, inasmuch as it would bring the house back to the
position it was in when vote No, 8 was taken.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. member for Birmingham had made use of language
which he thought was not easily justified. The hon. mem-
ber, he thought, should not make use of the terms " trick "
and "insulting to the house," when a misfortune or
mistake occurred, unless he were prepared to say to whom
he applied these terms. After what had passed he would
not proceed with the navy estimates that night, but it was
necessary that the vote should be passed in order to obtain
the Act of Appropriation, which mast be agreed to before
the Easter recess. (No, no.)
After a brief conversation, the motion for reporting pro-
gress was withdrawn, on the understanding that no more
votes on the navy estimates should be taken that night, and
that vote No. 8 should on a subsequent evening be recom-
mitted. with a view of hearing Mr. Stansfeld's statement,
and for discussion on it.
THE SCHELDT DUES.
Mr. F. PEEL moved a vote of £179,000 for the redemp-
tion of the Scheldt toll. A treaty had been made by the
Powers of Europe, but more especially between Holland
and Belgium, for the purpose of relieving vessels navigating
the Scheldt from the tolls, and a sum equal to £1,450 was
paid by Belgium, she receiving from the different countries
of Europe about £900,000 according to their relative inte-
rests in the navigation of the Scheldt, as represented by
their respective amounts of shipping on that river. By a
treaty of 1839 the Belgian Government undertook to pay
the toll itself, and to reimburse the Government of Holland
in the same manner as if it had the toll on the vessels going
up. This arrangement had continued in force , but for some
time past Belgium had complained of the increasing sum
annually required to satisfy Holland, and had represented
that if this continued she must leave other countries to
pay the toll far themselves. The tolls had increased from
1,449,000 f in 1856 to 2,176,000 f in 1861, which was the last
year of which he had any returns. The amount of toll charged
for British vessels had increased in the same proportion, and
from 200,000 f in 1851, had risen to 536,000 f in 1857, and
663,0001 in 1861, The share which this country was to
contribute was £350,000 or thereabouts. Belgium having
to pay these dues for foreign ships, had compensated herself
by levying heavy tonnage and pilotage dues. In considera-
tion, however, of the Scheldt dues being redeemed, she had
consented to ;remit the tonnage dues altogether, and to
greatly reduce the pilotage and harbour dues in her ports.
The direct relief afforded by these deductions and remis
sions provided for in the treaty of commerce would be
£5,000 a year. It was proposed that, of the amount to be
paid by England, one moiety should be paid during the
present year, and one moiety in the second year.
Mr. A. SMITH asked for certain explanations in
regard to the Scheldt dues, and replies were given by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The vote was then agreed to.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON then brought in a sup-
plemental army estimate for army services for the year
1863.4. The principal item in it was one of £119,892 for
disallowances made by the India Office in respect to troops
serving in India from the year 1854 to 1861, In the latter
year the payment of a capitation allowance on our troops
serving its that country commenced ; and from that period
there would, he believed, be no difficulty in settling the
accounts of each year within the year. Previously it was,
however, impossibls to close the accounts within the year.
A sum of £401,000 had been received from the India Board
in settlement for past claims against them in respect to the
army, but it was impossible for the 'War Office to take credit
for this, and it was necessary to take a vote for the £119,000
with which we were debited. The war in New Zealand had
been the cause of nearly the whole of the remainder of the
vote, which amounted altogether to £409,000. This was due
to the increase in pay and regimental allowances to the
troops serving there ; to extensive purchases of horses for
the cavalry and military train; and to heavy commissariat
expenses, caused by the high price of provisions and the
large sums which had to be paid for lodging the troops and
for providing storehouses. The noble marquis then moved
the vote of £409,000.
Mr. WILLIAMS commented upon the expense entailed
upon this country by founding colonies, for the establish-
ment of which it was requisite to take the property of savage
tribes.
Sir H. WTI LOUGHBY asked if they were to understand
that the accounts between the War Office and the India
Office were now finally closed ?
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said that they were
closed up to the year 1861. The sum included in the esti-
mates of the present year which was due to the war in New
Zealand was about £300,000.
The supplemental vote of £409,000 was then agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS.
In committee of ways and means,
Mr. PEEL moved the following resolutions :-1. That,
towards making good the supply granted to her Majesty,
for the service of the year ending March 31, 1864, the sum
of £584,650 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. 2, That,
towards making good the supply granted to her Majesty,
the sum of £4,500,000 be granted out of the Consolidated
Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
The resolutions were agreed to.
THE MUTINY BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
Clauses 1 to 21 inclusive were agreed to.
On clause 22, which sanctioned the infliction of the
punishment of flogging,
Mr. COX moved the omission of the clause. He believed
that this punishment was brutal and demoralising. Nor was
it necessary for the maintenance of discipline. For the dis-
cipline of the French and Austrian armies was quite as good
as that of our own ; and yet in neither of these armies was
there any corporal punishment, Certainly, if it is resorted
to at all, it should only be for serious offences. But the
fast is that men were now dogged for the most trivial
offences. In one instance during the last year a man re-
ceived 40 stripes for the use of bad language. Why, if
every member of that house who used bad language were
to be flogged, how many of them would escape corporal
punishment? (Laughter.) While a civilian who com••
mitted a theft was only punished with imprisonment, a
soldier was subjected to lashes inflicting marks upon him
for life, This ought not to be. The infliction of this pun-
ishment was an outrage upon our c vilisation and our
Christianity; and it was utterly inconsistent with the sup-
port which we gave to the Northern States of America for
relieving the negro from the lash, or with the indignation
which we poured out upon Russia for the use of the knout.
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the motion. It was dis-
graceful to allow the infliction of this punishment upon
men whom we regarded as the pride and honour of the
country, He thought the committee would be doing a thing
highly creditable in assenting to the motion of the hon.
gentleman.
Mr, AYRTON observed that at one time as many as
2,000 lashes were inflicted upon the soldier, and when pro-
posals were made for a diminution of the number the same
arguments were resorted to in support of corporal punish-
ment that were heard to-day. But the maxim number of
lashes had been since reduced to fifty, and yet the charac-
ter and discipline of the British army had suffered no detri-
ment in consequence. In India flogging was not allowed
in the native army, and the native soldier was in the habit
of pointing with scorn at the English soldier, because he
was subjected to the lash, which was a state of things that
ought never to exist in that country.
Mr. WHITE also supported the amendment.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON reminded the house
that the British army was largely recruited from the most
degraded classes of the community,and said unless a soldier
had proved himself a man of incorrigibly bad character he
was never subjected to the lash. The total number of such
punishments in the army had materially decreased within
the last few years.
Mr. BASS suggested a remedy that the bad characters
in the army should be got rid of without flogging, and not
flogged first and dismissed afterwards.
Major STUART, whilst expressing dislike of the use of
the lash, was of opinion that there were many cases, which
he indicated, in which no other punishment would be
sufficient.
Mr. COX having briefly replied,
The committee divided, and the amendment was nega-
tived by 45 to 42. The clause was then agreed to.
Mr. COX next moved the omission of clause 26, relating
to the punishment of branding, which he denounced as even
a more brutal and degrading punishment than flogging.
The proposal led to a warm and animated discussion, in
the course of which Mr. HE ADLAM ('he Judge Advocate
General) said that whatever sympathy he might have with
the gentlemen who had spoken against flogging, he could
not help thinking that a good deal of zeal and humane sen-
timent had been wasted in reference to branding, for the
fact was that it inflicted little or no vain at all. It was re •
sorted to in consequence of men of bad character on being
dismissed from one regiment enlisting into another for the
sake of the bounty money. He considered, therefore, that
the punishment was necessary and indispensable.
Mr. BRIGHT observed that almost the only other coun-
try in which branding was practised was the slave States of
America, and there the negro was marked with the name
of his owner. He warned the house that this country was
approaching a revolution in regard to labour, in consequence
of the extent to which emigration was being carried on.
The demand for labour was even now overrunning the sup-
ply. Wages would probably rise very much, even in the
agricultural districts, and that being the case they would
by and bye find greater difficulty in recruiting the army
than at the present moment. To maintain our Indian army
alone 10,000 recruits were required annually ; and he should
recommend that the army should be made as little distaste-
ful and as honourable as possible to those who took service
in it.

Colonel KNOX said there were men in the army whom
it was impossible to control without having recourse to the
most coercive measures. So far as branding was concerned
it was resorted to to protect the State from a fraudulent
transaction.
Captain IS stated that there were very many offi-
cersopp
osejdEßto Ithe infliction of these punishments, unless
for cowardice or misconduct in the face of the enemy ; and
he himself would be glad to dispense with them, provided
an equally efficacious substitute could be found, and the
House of Commons would vote a sum of money equivalent
to the amount which the re-enlistment of deserters would
be sure to entail upon the country.
T nn of VYMTV(ITTVR