The Sun.
London, England, 1864-01-05 00:00:00

soners, but in the report of the House of Lords' committee
it appeared that in some cases, exclusive of other labour,
prisoners were employed nearly nine hours on the treadmill.
He, therefore, thought the proposition of the noble earl ex-
tremely moderate. (Hear, hear.)
Mr ESDAILE said the only desire of the Court was to show
a proper feeling of respect to the committee which had pre-
sented such an able report, and to visiting justices, who had
always so ably discharged their duty. (Hear. hear.) He
would suggf st that the Court should express their thanks
to the committee for the report which they had presented,
and refer that report to the visiting justices to carry it out
in their descretion from time to time as they might think fit.

to remain there." (Hear, hear, and laughter). Now, it
was not desirable that such an impression should get
abroad amongst the labouring classes. Offenders ought to
receive the punishment to which they were sentenced, and
not be better treated than an honest man earning Bs. a
week and supporting himself and his family by his own
honest industry. (Hear, hear.)
Lord H. CHOLMONDELEY, after a few remarks in ex-
planation, withdrew his first and third resolution, and the
second and fourth were put to the vote, the number of the
magistrates being recorded,
Lord EVERSLEY, on casting up the number, declared them
to be—
For Lord Carnarvon's motion
For the amendment l9

(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BEACH, M.P., said the noble earl bad invited the
justices to reconsider the present system. The visiting
justices had shown a desire to enter calmly into the details
of the recommendations which had been made, in most of
which details the chairman of the visiting justices commit-
tee had acquiesced. There were several matters in which
great latitude was left to the justices. The question of plank
beds mutt be left to their discretion., and as to instruc-
tion in the evenings, he thought they might try whether
it would operate beneficially, and then report to the Court
The resolution did not order them to carry out any details.
They were simply called upon to carry the recommenda-
tions contained in the report into effect to the best of their
ability and power; and he was sure that no one would
have any reason to complain of their want of zeal and dis-
cretion in carrying out these recommendations. He thought
the report ought to be adopted as it stood, sufficient latitude
being left to the justices to exercise their )wn discretion in
the matter. (Hear, hear.)
Lord HEYTESBURY expressed his concurrence in the
views of the last speaker.
Mr. BERNARD said one of the evils complained of by the
Lords' committee was the want of uniformity in prison dis-
cipline, and he did not think that the adoption of the report
would at all tend to remove that difficulty. If the report
should be adopted in its entirety, in what situation would
some of the prisons be? Prisoners tried at Winchester and
sent to Portsmouth or Southampton would receive very
different sorts of punishment from those imprisoned at Win •
cheater. If the discipline recommended by the noble earl
was proper it ought to be adopted generally. He believed
that the Secretary for the Home Department was taking
some steps in the matter, for he had directed returns to be
made with respect to the diet in prisons ; and, under these
circumstances, he would suggest the propriety of postponing
the further consideration of the matter for the present.
Mr. SCLATER BOOTH, M.P., believed that the time had
arrived for making prison discipline more stringent, and felt
greatly obliged to the noble earl for the part which he had
taken in the matter, but felt that great deference was due
to the opinions of the gentlemen who had had the ma-
nagement of the prison for so matt' years, and the Court
ought not to come to a vote which would place them in an
unpleasant position. (Hear, hear.) He should be glad if
the Court could separate without coming to a vote. If not,
he felt that the visiting justices had a great claim on his
support. So far from the amendments being antagonistic,
he was surprised to find the visiting justices so ready to
concur in the recommendations contained in the report,
and to try the experiments recommended with regard
to diet and labour. Whether it was worth while to ask
the Court to allow them to exercise their discretion
with regard to the four points contained in the amendment,
or whether they might assume that the Court would grant
that discretion, he was not prepared to say. It might be
assumed that the Court would not bind them with respect
to every detail, and would view with forbearance any ob-
servations which they might make. But if they insisted on
the amendments being adopted he should not oppose them.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. GORDON believed that it was the wish of the
Court that the report should be carried oat within the lati-
tude indicated by the amendment. Whether the object
would be obtained by the adoption of the motion with that
understanding, or whether it would be better to adopt the
amendments, might be a matter of arrangement. But if
the carrying of the amendment would be equivalent to the
rejection of the report, he would vote for the original mo-
tion. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CARNARVON congratulated the Court on the
moderate tone which the discussion had assumed. Various
propositions had been mape with the view of bringing
about a complete agreement, and the Court must be satis-
fied if it obtained an agreement in reality, and not look too
much to technical agreement in words. It had been sug-
gested that the consideration of the report should be de-
layed until some steps were taken by a central authority.
It was hardly necessary to discuss that point. The Court
was of opinion that some action ougnt to be taken, and if
they were to wait until the Secretary of State proposed a
uniform system, they would have to wait a very long time.
(Rear, hear.) A proposition had been made that the report
should be referred to the visiting justices for them to re•
port upon.
Mr. EsDAILE said what he had suggested was that the
justices should take into consideration the report of the
special committee, and carry out such parts of it as they
should deem advisable, and report thereon from time to

Majority —2B
The original motion was, therefore, carried ; and, the
other business having been disposed of,

The Court adjourned.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer in

Flintshire.

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It is now pretty generally known that during thz:".
past few months a movement has taken place to itz
commemorate the three-hundredth birthday of Shek-
speare—April 23, 1861—by liqieg the first stone of
a monument to the immortal bard in some conspi-
cuous part of London. In order to effect this object
in a manner in some degree worthy of Shakspeare
and of the country, a committee of noblemen and
gentlemen have charged themselves with the duty
of inviting the patronage of her Majesty, the presi-
dency of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales,
the co-operation of corporate bodies, special com-
mittees, and eminent men of ail ranks and profes-
sions. The list of vice-presidents already enrolled
cllnpriso the following, erwnent names :—The
Areh-
'bi,hop of Canterbury, Lori. Primate of all England;
the 114,-.3.(1 Arcbbi3hop of 17.c,r1:; th',. Lord Archbishop
of Dublin; the Duke of Devonshire, Chr,ziedlor of
the University of Clmbridge ; Lord Broighcsaa end
Chancellor of the University oft' Edinburgh ;
the Duke of Manchester, Chairman of Gimmittee;
Earl Granville, K.G., Lord President of the Pr;vy
Council ; the Right Hon. Sir Frederick Pollock,
Lord Chief baron of the Exchequer; the Earl of
Carlisle, K.G., Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; Earl
Stanhope, President of the Society of Ant queries;
General Sabine, President of the Royal Society :
Sir C. L. Eastlake, President of the Royal Academy
of Arts ; the Right Hon. the Lord Ma: or of Lon-
don, the Right Hon. Sir E. Bulwer Lytton, Bart.,
M.P., Charles Dickens, Esq., W. C. Macready, Esq.,
Alfred Tennyson, Esq,, Poet Laureate. The secre-
taries and treasurers are as follows :—General se-
cretaries—W. Hepworth Dixon, Esc., F.S.A.,
J.
0. Halliwell, Esq., F.R.S.; Colonial secretaries—
Sir Charles Nicholson, Bart., Sir Richard Graves-
Macdonnell, C.B. ; Dramatic secretariese—J. Stir-
ling Coyne, Esq., Westland Marston, Esq., LL.D. ;
Literary secretaries-1. C. Jeaffreson, Esq., H. N.
Barnett, Esq.; Secretaries for committees-in. aid—
Frederick Haines, Esq,, F.S.A., G. Linemas
Banks, Esq; Foreign secretaries—Ernest de Bun-
sen, Esq., Antonio Panizzi, Esq. ; Treasurers—Sir
Richard Charles Kirby, C. 8., William Tite, Esq.,
M.P., F. W. Cosens, Esq. The general committee,
already numbering upwards of 400 members, in-
cludes names the most eminent in literature, art,
science, law, the church, diplomacy, and commerce.
Up to the present the meetings of the committee
have been strictly of a private character. Yester-
day afternoon the members met at the rooms of the
Society of Arts, Adelphi. Amongst those present
were the secretaries and some 50 members of the

general committee.
On the motion of W. HEPWORTH DIXON, Esq.,
Mr. Bracebridge, of Stratford-upon-Avon, was voted
to the chair.
FRED. HAINES, EEq., read the minutes of the
meeting of Dec. 7. Pert of the proceedings of this
meeting was a motion for inviting the late Mr.
Thackeray to become one of the vice-presidents ;
which motion, on a mere matter of form, was op-
posed and negatived by a vote of 22 to 9.
On the motion that these minutes oe confirmed,
Mr. VIZITELLY opposed it on the ground that the
numbers had been inaccurately recorded, as more
than 9 had been in favour of the proposition to in-
vite Mr. Thackeray to become one of the vice-presi-
cents. His amendment, however, was not seconded.
W. HEPWORTH DIXON, Eq,, said before the
minutes were confirmed he would submit a sugges-
tion which the meeting might or might not adopt.
He for one should infinitely ;egret that there should
remain on the records of a committee like theirs any
such entry as that to which reference had been made.
(Hear.) That proposition, he believed, was m .de
in
haste. It was said, on one side, that there was a
misapprehension with regard to the character of it.
He was perfectly certain that under the circum-
stances all regretted that it had been made. (Hear,
hear.) He expressed en individual opinion when
he said that be never thought of contesting Mr.
Thackeray's high claims or his right to any place
on that committee to which they thought pro-
per to appoint him. He believed the whole
thing had arisen in a misapprehension about
the form in which the invitation should be
sent. He would therefore propose that the chair-
man be authorised to erase that entry from the
minntes before confirming them, so that the bock
which would certainly acme day be deposited in the
British Museum, and remain as a permanent record
of the committee, should not bear on the face of it
an entry which was the result of haste, and which
was certainly a matter of very profound regret.
(Hear, beer.)
Mr. GEORGE CRUIESHANK seconded the resolu-
tion.

A lengthened discussion took place on this propo-
sition, in which Mr. Bell, Mr. Ottley, Mr. Theodore
Martin, Mr, Vzitelly, Mr. Gruneisen, Mr. Tcmiins,
and Mr. Stirling Coyne took part. The •:ieepest
regret was expressed on all hands that such
an entry should under the lamentable cir-
cumstances of Mr. Thackeray's death, have
been made, and there was a general coecura
rence in the statement of Mr. Dixon, that it had
occurred on a mere question of form as to whether
Mr. Thackeray should be invited to become a vice-
president before it was known whether he would be
willing to accept. It was thought that the case
should be met by a declaratory resolution, and not
by an erasure of the minutes. In this view the
minutes were first confirmed by the meeting, and
then C. L. Gruneisen, Esq., submitted the following
resolution, which being duly seconded, was, after
considerable discussion, eventually carried ; " That
the general committee deeply deplore the premature
decease of Mr. Thackeray, and regret that circum-
stances should have occurred to prevent the enrol-
ment of his name in the list of vice-presidents.
W. HEPWORTH DIXON, Esq., then announced
the following additions to the committee since the
last meeting:—To the list of vice-presidents—Earl
Granville, K.G., and the Lord Mayor. To the Com-
mittee—The Right Hon. the Lord Provost of Eciin-
burgh, the Mayor of Arundel, the Mayor of Bolton,
tNlaie.playorfeastsE.CosrtiiiiGc.h.,e.wiTsdthwaeorrinar,lletanhsse Recorder of Durham,
the Mayor of Kendal, the Mayor of Northumber-
land, the Sheriff of Mid-Lothian; the Provost of
Stirling, Sir Robert Phillimore, Q.C. D.C.L.,
Queen's Advocate; the Hon. the Chief Justice
of British Guiana, Sir Richard Hill, K.C.8.,
Col. de Bathe, Sir F. Madden, K.H., P.R.S., J. B.
‘,DI\ an.uo.Dvdmi ep,
eE,hpr
tiv:Ea:rys.l.oqAni
FE. 1.
Arnold,
Dol , t
oFE Smith,.GsS go.
Hugh
d.
James
ca Hhnim‘e.
vsi G.
pc.t De La RED:risVEolociaesfr::::icisEgyosE:h:os
dgErtsd, Esq.,
qgratijj
Hood, ,
Lawrence,win
Esq., John C. Leighton, Esq., Theodore
Martin, Esq., G. W. Martin, Esq., Alfred Mellon,
Esq., H. A. Wright, E-q., James Anderson, Esq.,
Rev, Thomas Corser, George Petrie, Esq., LL.D.,
James Spence, Esq., Liverpool, George King, Esq.
He said he had also to submit to them a report on
the general state of the committee, an exposition of
its ideas and of its organisation, with a view to
making the first public statement which they had
ever yet attempted up to the present time. All their
meetings had been private, and nothing had been
allowed to transpire except through the accredited
secretaries, who had been appointed to report such
official formal facts as they were instructed to do.
The question of publicity had to a great extent,
however, been taker. out of their hands, as some of
the members Lad made matter of public report the
common transactions of this private committee. It
had become absolutely nectssory, therefore, for the
committee itself to assume publicity. It was pro•
posed that a public statement should be made of
their ideas and organisation, which statement he
wuuld submit to them for their ultimate adoption.
The hon. gentleman then read an address, setting
forth the ideas and organisation of the commito e,
as at present existing, a resume of their opLrstion,a,
and a classified list of the most eminent members.
Another long discussion of no public interest
took place on this report, resulting in its being re-
ferred back to the executive committee by the fol-
me
idraftttee report
rpt uh twf
forthwith
printed, and a copy-
ward
awrid n g resolutionn behalf - -f
" the
sent That
committee
the
to each member of the
general •
committee, and that this meeting stand ad-
journed until Mon
too
Monday next to consider the same.
The meeting thereupon adjourned.
t m