The Sun.
London, England, 1864-07-13 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening.

The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock.
HIGHWAYS ACT AMENDMENT (RECOM-
MITTED) BILL.

Tha house went into committee on this bill

On the motion that the preamble should be postponed,

Mr THOMPSON said that the present state of highway
management was most unsatisfactory. To prove this he
mentioned that it had been found necessary to substitute
another bill in 1862 for that of 1855. They were now called
on to rescind the former. He thought that no practical re-
sult would arise until that act was rescinded compulsory
instead of optional.

Clauses 1 to 19 inclusive were agreed to after a short dis-
cussion.

Oa clause 20,
Mr KENDALL moved an amendment to the effect that
parishes should be compelled to refence in their neighbour-
hoods if necessary.
Sir G. GREY said that unless they were already liable
these words would not render them so.

The amendment was withdrawn, and the clause was
agreed to, as were clauses to 23.

On clause 24,

Mr. H. FEN WICK moved the omission of the words
" without a keeper," the object of which was to prevent
cattle being turned out on the highways for pasturage.
These highways were intended for the use of the public,
and eonverting them into grazing ground was a direct per•
Version from their legitimate purposes.
After some discussion, the committee divided—
For the amendment .... 42
Against it

Majority

It was then moved that the words " Sach highways not
being more than 30 feet wide" should be added, but it was
wi:hdrawn.

Sir B, LEIGHTON moved that the words of the clause
should not apply to any existing rights of pasturage on the
sides of roads.

Lord HENLEY said that the effect of the provision pro-
posed by the hon. baronet would be to nullify the clause
altogether, for there were no road upon which rights did
not exist.

The amendment was agreed to without a division. The
clause, with some other amendments, was then adopted
without further discussion.

There was some further discussion on subsequent clauses,
and some verbal amendments were introduced.
Tho bill was ordered to be reported, and at 10 minutes to
4 o'clock the sitting was suspended.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT AND THE
SLAVE TRADE.

Mr HLRDCASTLE asked the First Lord of the Trea-
sury whether the Brazilian Government had fAfilled
their obligations with regard to the Africans liberated by
British cruisers, as to whom Earl Russell stated in a de-
spatch of June 6, 1863, that "some thousands of negroes,
captured in slave trading vessels, and decreed many years
ago by the mixed commission at Rio to be entitled to free-
dom, are, there is good reason to believe, up to the present
time held in bondage, contrary to law and in violation of
treaty engagements,"

Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I am sorry to be obliged to
Bey the conduct of the Brazilian Government with regard to
the slave trade has invariably been marked by the greatest
violation of treaty engagements. It led, as everybody
knows, to the passing of the Act of 1845, and afterwards to
the proceedings under that act in 1852. Their conduct as
regards the emancipadoes has been as flagrant a violation
of their engagements as any other part of their conduct
with regard to the slave trade. Upon this slave trade a
mixed commission was appointed in Brazil, combined of
British and Brazilian judges, and they were to decree the
liberty of negroes found in the slave trading vessels which
might have been condemned as such by the mixed court.
These delivered negroes were entitled to be free, but the
Brazilian Government said they would require preparation
for freedom, and it was provided that they should be sub-
ject to a master for
zilian Government, some by
years. Some were kept by the Bra-
e private master; and we have
reason to believe none of them ever obtained that freedom
which they desired. This
has been the subject of frequent
representations by the British Government, but these re-
presentations have not been attended to. We, have asked for
a list of these negroes, and have not been able to obtain it;
but the Brazilian Government have stated that there are
measures by which the negroes may obtain their freedom by
their own act. I will state what those measures are, in order
that the house may see how far they as e in accordance with
the views of Government. In the first place, the negro is to
ask from the chief clerk the attestation that hie 14 years
have expired. Then he is to petition the Minister of Jus-
tice. 3d. The Minister of Justice refers the petitioner to
the Judge of Orphans. 4th. The Judge of Orphans gives
information, and sends the petitioner to the Minister of
Justice. sth, The Minister of Justice refers the petitioner
to the chief of police. 6th. The chief of police refers the
petitioner to the general Guardian of Negroes. 7th. The
Guardian of Negroes refers the petitioner to the chief of
police. Bth. The chief of police refers the petitioner to the
governor of the House of Correction. (A laugh.) 9th, The
governor of the House of Correction gives information, and
send the petitioner back to the chief of police. (Laughter.)
10th. The chief of police gives information, and sends back
the petitioner to the office of the Secretary of Justice. 11th
—(laughter)—The Secretary of Justice makes a procedure
of the information, which has been passod by the Minister
of Justice himself. Well, then, 12th, the Minister of Jus-
tice causes letters of freedom to be administered to the man.
Now, you would think all is done and the man is free, Far
from that. 13th. The petitioner is referred to the judge
with his letter. 14th. Re is sent to the chi of of police. 15th,

The judge refers the petitioner to his own clerk, and orders
letters of freedom to be given, but keeps the letter until
the party has paid the respective emoluments to the officers
engaged in these proceedings. 16th. lie is made over to
the chief of police. 17th. The chief of police ccmmunicates
with the governor of the House of Correctior, , and orders
the applicant to appear before him. 18 .4. The governor
sends for him—that is, for the applicant—it d the chief of
police designates his future place of residence ; for he is not
allowed to go where he likes as a free man, but is fixed to a
particular spot. 19. The chief of police communicates with
chief of divisional police at the place designated, and hands
the applicant to that officer, 20th. The chief of the provin-
cial police hands him over to the chief of police at Rio, and
he is removed from the place where for 14 years he had
been residing, and had established connections. All the
treaties we have made to obtain justice for the emancipados
have failed, and we have not been able to obtain any list of
them. We know that when the slave of one of the owners
died, the emancipado was put in his place, and it was re-
ported that the emancipado had died, and not the slave.
Mr S. FITZGERALD would like to know whether these
20 steps were pointed out in the Brazilian documents, or
whether the noble lord had obtained from other sources the
explanation of the course by which the emancipado should
be freed. With respect to the Brazilian Government, he
would ask whether that Government had not put down the
slave trade, and whether Lord Brougham, than whom no
warmer advocate of emancipation existed, had not expressed
his gratitude to that Government?
Lord PALMERSTON—This string has not been
obtained from the Government. I extracted it from a
Brazilian newspaper, which gave it as an official document,
and I believe it is correct. With regard to the other
question of the hon. member, the Brazilian Government
have of late years, since 1852, put an end to the slave trade.
That has been by compulsion, not by conviction. The Act
of 1845 was long a dead letter. In 1551-2 the provisions of
that Act were brought into force, and I believe from that
time to this the Brazilian slave trade has been put an end
to. They gave fresh orders to their officers, and, in spite
of bribes to them, I believe that from that time to this the
Brazilian slave trade has ceased. I take great credit to
myself for having brought about that.
Mr BRIGHT protested against the noble lord making a
speech on a matter of this nature, where other members
could not reply. He should move the adjournment of the
house, in order to make one or two observations upon it.
He was not aware that a question was going to be put
upon that subject that night—but on a previous occasion
the noble lord had stated much the same as he had stated
that evening. He would like to know whether the noble
lord was not aware of the opinion of Lord Aberdeen
that the Brazilian Act ought to bs repudiated. That Act,
he meant to say, was one of the greatest offences to the
Brazilian Government, Legislature, and people ; and he
might quote the opinion of the late Lord Truro, who
was no mean lawyer, that a more unjustifiable Act, and
one more in defiance of international law, never was
passed by any legislature. If that were so, and if the
state of things upon which that Act was justified had en-
tirely passed away, and if, as we knew the relations of
this country with Brazil had been of a most unpleasant
kind from the time of the pasting of this Act, and if we
knew that until that Act was repealed the relations between
the two countries would have no chance of being placed upon
a proper basis, he thought the noble lord should give up his
adherence to what was originally an indefensible law. And
he should think, after the vote of last week, when, if the
house did not come to a vote of censure, at least he never
knew an occasion upon which they had approached more
nearly to it, and never did he know an occasion where the
house had denounced so strongly the irritating and offensive
policy of the Foreign Office—(hear, hear)—the noble lord
might have learned something from that ; and if the noble
lord would consent even now to repeal an Act which had
no reference to the existing state of things, but which as
long as it was maintained was certain to produce bitterness
between this country and Brazil—a nation with whom we
had extensive relations, which might be more extensive if
we had a Government ready to meet them in a friendly
spirit—he believed he would be carrying out the opinion
prevailing in that house, and the opinion prevailing among
all classes of this country who had anything to de with
Brazil and its people. It might be too late to do anything
of the kind this session, but if the noble lord was not pre-
pared to do so at the beginning of next session, he hoped
some hon. member would move for a committee to examine
into the question, and he believed no committee of that
house would support the policy of the noble lord. Between
this and next session no doubt there would be affairs before
the Foreign Office relating to Brazil and the King of Por..
tugal. If so, the noble lord need not wait until next session,
but he might promise what he would do in order to esta-
blish friendly relations between England and Brazil.

Sir J. ELPHINSTONE would support the appoint-
ment of a committee, but would not have its labours
confined entirely to the trade with Brazil. At this time
the situation of our troops on the unhealthy coast of
Africa, where vast numbers of them were dying of fever,
was perfectly appalling. (Hear, hear.) The answers they
had heard from the Government were most evasive ; but
nevertheless ha believed the troops were dying from starve-
tion, and the country was is a state of famine. These were
questions calling for the consideration of Parliament, and
which could not long be deferred. Another question which
forced itself upon the attention of the Government, and
which could not long be avoided, was that the maintenance
of the squadron on that coast cost £60,003 per annum, and
there was not one of the ships, except the commodore's,
which could go more than eight knots. As he understood,
blockade slave-runners were now employed in the slave
trade, and these vessels had simply to turn their heads to
the wind to escape from our cruisers. Well, these were our
best cruisers on the coast of Africa, and it wasrfor the house
to say what means had we, should any difficulty arise with
a foreign country, to protect the commerce of this country.
Vessels of the Confederate States of America, carrying a
earn were able to make 15 or 16 knots, while our ships,
upon which depended the protection of our commerce in
time of war, could not make above eight knots.
Mr S. FITZGERALD endorsed moss cordially every
word which had been said by the hon. member for Birming-
ham, and expressed the regret which all in the house must
feel on seeing that the noble lord took every opportunity of
making an attack of this kind upon a Government with
which for years, until lately, we had held most friendly re-
lations. The answer of the noble lord was simply an
amplification of the last despatch sent by the noble lord at
the head of the Foreign office to the Brazilian Government,
who bad not, so far as that house was aware, yet sent a
reply to it. Re entirely agreed with all that had fallen from
the hon. member for Birmingham.

Lord PALMERSTON said he dill not think he was open
to the reproaches of the hon, gentleman, as he did not
vofunteer that statement. Ile (Lord Palmerston) was asked
a question, and the answer involved a statement which he
knew to be true. It would be useless for the hon. gentle-
man to deny its truth. He (Mr Fitzgerald) knew better.
(Hear, hear.) Therefore it was not worthy of him—
Mr FITZGERALD—I have said I did not know it.

Lord PALMERSTON—Then I am sorry you are so
ignorant. (Cries of Oh, oh.) What I stated is to be found
in papers which are laid upon tha table of the house. The
noble lord proceeded to say that with regard to the remarks
of the hon. member for Birmingham and the hon. gentle•
man opposite, he would only remark that the act was the
exact counterpart of an act which it had been his (Lord
paltnerston's) duty to propose to the house in regard to
Portugal, and which, therefore, must have been approved
of by tae law cfficers of two different Governments. The
justification of the acts was that Portugal and Brazil had
each, by the treaty of 1826, pledged the honour of their re-
spective countries to abolish the slave trade; that they
failed to fulfil t2aeir engagements ; and it was therefore
thought we ought to use our power in order to compel the
observance of the treaty. Everybody was aware that the
slave trade in Brazil amototed to a landing of about 7,000
negroes every year, and it wos easy to imagine the misery
and suffering that was thereby caused. Everybody was also
aware that since the year 1815 thd English Government
and the English nation had determie ad to put an end to
that abominable trade. (Hear, hear.) He maintained,
then, that the goodness of the object justified the means
which the Government had from time to tin se taken for
putting down that crime; and he was convinced that if the
act were repealed the Brazilian slave trade would revive, as
it had in the case of Spain and Cuba. Spain was bound
by treaty to abolish the slave trade. That, indeed, was
the only reward we asked for our assistance in the war of
independence. Eat what was the result ? Why, they
had heard in that house, time atter time, that the slave
trade to Cuba was carried on in spite of the treaty.
Then, take another example that of Portugal. She,
too, had made a slave treaty, but she still consented to
the exportation of slaves from her settlements in Africa.
Now, in France, not only the slave trade, but slavery
itself, was nominally abolished ; and yet, notwithstanding
this, about two years ago the slave trade was to all intents
and Purposes begun and carried on for some time under ties
pretext of exporting
free labourers from Africa, The hon.
gentleman was correct in saying that the act had not been
enforced since 1852 ; but he (Lord Palmeraton) was quits
aware that it was still a thorn in the side of the BraTailians.
It was an impediment to those who wished to carry on the
slave trade, and a reproach to those who did not. For his
part, he attached so much importance to it that, greatly as
he valued the friendship of the Brazilians, yet it these were
put into the two scales of the balance—the abolition of the
slave trade and the friendship of Brazil—he would sacrifice
the friendslaip of Brazil. (dear, hear.)
Lord J. rdANNERS wished to know why the noble lord
did not act in the Clllll9 manner with regard to Spain.
(Hear, hear,) The fact was that. he dared not. (Hear.)
Be Would not enter into the question at any length, but he
could not help protesting
against the language which had
been made use of by the noble lord towards an independent
member. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J, HAY said that before the debate closed he wished
to say a few words upon what had fallen from the hon.
member for Portsmouth on the subject of the attempts
which had been ma de to suppress the slave trade on the
coast of Africa. We anaintaaned upon that coast a squadron
of 18 steam vessels, and he believed that only one of them
—viz,, the Rattles uake—
was capable of going
101 knots an
hour. The other day he was informed four of these vessels
gave chase to a alai Ter, but they could not succeed in effect-
ing her capture. Ile wished to know whether such a state
of things was to be continued.

Lord C. FAQ said he thought that his hon. friers'

had made a very exaggerated statement to the house.
All he could say was that no acccunts, so far as he was
aware, had been received of our steamers chasing slavers
and not being able to catch them.
Sir J. PAKINGTON observed that the noble lord (Pal-
merston) had first of all imputed to his hon. friend (Mr
Fitzgerald) that he must have known the reverse of what
he was stating to have been the truth; and he followed
that by rebuking his hon. friend for his great ignorance.
(Hear, hear.) He would like to know when the papers to
which the noble lord had alluded were laid upon the table
of the house.

Mr LAYA.RD said he was not at the moment able to
state that.
The motion was then withdrawn.
RAILWAY TRAVELLING.

Mr B. COCHRANE asked the President of the Board
of Trade whether, with the view of protecting the public, it
would not be possible to compel the railway companies to
introduce into the carriage some mode of communicating
with the guards.
Mr M. GIBSON replied that no doubt it would be possi-
ble to compel the railway companies to introduce some
oceans of enabling passengers to communicate with the
guards, but he greatly doubted the expediency of doing so.
He did not intend to propose to Parliament any measure on
the subject.
THE FLAGSHIP IN THE MEDITERRANEAN.

Sir J. HAY asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if
there were auy truth In the rumour that a wooden three
decker was being fitted for the new flagship in the Mediter-
ranean, and whether the Admiralty considered it prudent
to employ a ship of that description on so important a duty.
Lord C. PAGET said it was true that the Victoria, a
wooden three decker, was about to be sent to the Mediterra-
nean. It was the intention of the Admiralty to fit out some
of the large iron plated vessels as flagships, but at present
they thought the Victoria was quite equal to the duties
required of a flagship.