The Sun.
London, England, 1863-03-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—Last Evening.
The Lord Chancellor took his seat at the usual hour.
POLAND.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY gave notice that he would,
to-morrow, present a petition from a meeting lately held in
the Guildhall on the subject of Poland.

PETITIONS.
Lord CHELMSFORD presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Bermuda complaining of the competition al-
lowed to exist with Cuban slave-grown sugar.

The Earl of DERBY presented a petition from Tosteth
against the sale of intoxicating liquors.

The Archbishop of YORK presented several petitions
rom places in hiS dioc se.

GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY (NEW METROPO-
LITAN STATION) BILL.
The motion for resuming the adjourned debate on this
bill having been read,

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said he had already
spoken on this subject, but he thought the best speech that
could be made was to read the 17th section, in page 6, of
Colonel Yolland's report, (" Hear, hear," from the Earl
of Derby,) He moved that the bill be read a second time
that day six months.

Earl GRAN VILLE said it would be very unsatisfactory
to postpone all the bills for the metropolitan railways till next
session, because they would not be in a better position then
than now. What he thought best was to have a committee
appointed to inquire into all these bills, and report upon the
general scheme of metropolitan railways, and point out
what bills they thought ought to be passed and those that
ought to stand over for their consideration next session.

Earl GREY approved of such a course, as the subject
could not be well considered this session, and ought not to
be taken up with reference to bills by particular companies.
The subject deserved a scientific consideration, such as it could
not be expected a committee of the house could give it. The
railway scheme of the metropolis ought to be under the super-
intendence of some public body like the Metropolitan Board
of Works, who might let out particular portions of the work
to existing or other railway companies. It was not for the
house to appoint a committee, but the Government were
bound to accept the responsibility of introducing some
general measure. In the meantime he did not think it
would be safe to press any of the bills this session.
The Duke of SJMERSET paid the noble lord said that
the Board of Works were to settle the scheme of metropoli-
tan railwa, s, and afterwards the public were to make them ;
but he should like to know whether they would do so. He
sup/mated the proposal for a committee to repot t upon the
general scheme, This would prevent any injustice being
done to any particular line.

The Earl of DERBY reminded the house that the ques-
tion und'..,r consideration was the second reading of the bill,
Ampl.e time had been given since the first objections to the
tin, five weeks ago, to enable the company to refute these
objections, but no answer had been given. The case was left
where it stood, and the report of Col. Yolland substantiated
every objection he (the Earl of Derby) had made to the
bill. Not only w,s it to run parallel to another line already
sanctioned, and take up the open space in Finsbury-circus,
but from the level at which it was to be brought in to the
terminus-19 feet above the surface—it would be of no use
in completing the Metropolitan Railway, by which com-
munication with the north and south was to be effected,
since the other schemes proposed had their terminus at
Finsbury many feet below the surface. The object o: ap-
pointing a Royal Commission was not to lay down any
particular principle for an intercommunication between all
the railways north and south without changing car-
riages. In the meantime he had not the slightest hesitation
in saying that the objectionable lines should not be allowed
to pass. (Hear, hear.)

Lord EBURY said that the report of Colonel Yolland
had quite convinced himthat the bill before the house ought
not to be allowed to pass, and not only that, but nearly all
the metropolitan railway bills were equally objectionable.
As to the two plans before the house, for the appointment
either of a scientific commission or a committee of their
lordships' house, he thought there would be great difficul-
ties attending the working of a Royal commission; and he
considered that it would be better to allow a committee to
report upon what bills now before Parliament might safely
be passed. He would have all the rejected bills sent before
tbo Board of Trade for Clime' Yolland to prepare a report,
and they would then be in a good position next session to
deal with the whole question.

The Earl of MALMESB URY did not see how Lord
Ebury's plan could be carried out without laying all the
bills before the committee.

Earl GRANVILLE considered the report of Colonel
Yolland a most valuable document. He repeated his argu-
ments in favour of the appointment of a committee. Parlia-
ment had great powers in dealing with private bills, and he
thought the house ought to show itself willing to take the
trouble of examining carefully into the merits of each par-
ticular case. Be gave notice that after the Easter recess he
would move the appointment of a committee of their lord,
ships' house to take the question into consideration.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that they
ought to have both a committee to deal with the bills now
before Parliament, and a commission subsequently to deal
with the question at large.
After a few word from Lord CHELMSFORD,

The bill was ordered to be read a second time that day
six months.

THE MUTINY BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
TOBACCO DUTIES BILL.

Earl GRANVILLE moved the second reading of this
bill.

The standing orders were suspended, and tho bill was
passed through committee, read a third time, and passed.
BIRTHS AND DEATHS REGISTRATION (IRE-

LAND) BILL.

The Earl of ST. GERMANS moved the report of amend-
ments on this bill, which was read a second time.
POST-OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS.

Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY moved that the house
should go into committee on the Post Office Savings Banks
Bill.

Lord REDESDALE moved, as an amendmait, that
where transfers of deposits made by minors from local sav-
ings banks to Post-office savings banks should be under con-
sideration, the power of effecting the transfer should not be
left in the hands of parents, but in the hands of the trustees
or guardians of the local savings banks, who would be ac-
quainted with the circumstances, He also objected to the
fourth clause, which provided for the conversion into annui-
ties of funds lodged in savings banks.
The house then went into committee on the bill.
The clauses were agreed to, and progress was reported.
ECCLESIASTICAL PATRONAGE.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he rose with
some anxiety to call attention to a question of great im-
portance. They were all aware that great ecclesiastical
patronage was vested in the Lord Chancellor. It was
difficult to trace the origin of the right which was thus
vested in the Lord Chancellor and Lord Privy Seal. As
car.y as the rules of Parliament, in the reign of Edward
111., the right of the Lord Chancellor to present to all
livings of 20 marks and under was ackn-mledged in the
Rolls as undoubted. Subsequently, probably about the
reign of Henry VIII., when the denomination of money
was altered, £2O became substituted for 20 marks, But the
right of the Lord Chancellor to dispense patronage to all
Clown livings not exceeding £2O was undoubtedly an un•
contested one. He mentioned this, because it was material
for him to show that he was not about to take away any of
the patronage of the Crown; for if thelanguage were cour-
teous, which it would not be. the Crown might be considered
the trustee of the Lord Chancellor with respect to those
livings. With regard to all other Crown livings, the Pre-
mier takes the pleasure of the Crown; but when the Lord
Chancellor presented, he took it as his right, without con-
sulting the pleasure of the Crown. The appointment was
couched in language so peculiar, that he would repeat
the words of the writ. It ran thus : " The presentation
as of right doth to the Lord Chancellor belong." Such
was the origin of the right of the Lord Chancellor. These
livings were numerous, but many of them were in very
unfavourable districts, where there were no resident pro-
rietors. Livings that were small, and that were situ-
Lted in places where there were no resident proprietors,
lore an unfavourable comparison with other livings equally
small, but which had proprietors, who were interested in
them. They suffered from want of attention, from want
of schools and parsonages. Moved by these considerations,
be had selected out of the number of small livings in his
Patronage 320 of the smallest. The object of the measure
he
was about to propose was to ask their lordships to enable
11,:mto sell the advowsons of these livings, on definite terms,
ir the
etPurpose of
applying the purchase money to the aug-
mtaion of the livings. The result would be that, instead
of these 320 livings being held in the barren hands of the
Lord Chancellor, they would, ho 11,' ed become vested in
;i2O landed proprietors, each one of whom would have an
e a
additional interest in the welfare of th Establiehcd Church.
The Ecclesiastical Commissioners had rule that, if any
proprietor would advance any sum up to £l,OOO for the aug-
mentation of the value of a living, they would add another
£l,OOO or similar sum to that advanced by the proprietor.
He therefore proposed that when the LordChaneel or should
rneive the first instalment of £5OO he would, to theexstuenmt
of a limited number of livings in the year, carry that
of £5OO to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and theywould
add another sum of £5OO to it The £l,OOO would then be
laid out in the purchase of an annuity at 3i per cent. Thus
the first £5OO paid for the purchase of the advowson would
be at once productive of £3.5 yearly, to bo added to the
value of the living ; and when the other sum of £5OO of the
purchase money should become due by the living falling
vacant, it would be applied in a similar way, or in the pur-
chase of debentures, tithe-rent charges, or in Government
:,ecuritic., to be appropriated to the augmentation of the
Ile hoped therefore in those cases each of these
small livings would be augmented by the purchase money
to the extent of two-thirds, or of least one half, of their
annual value. He offered the alternative of granting a
rent charge at 5 per cent. in lieu of paying the money at
Once; such rent charge to be charged on adequate freehold
or copyhold property. The result would 1)J that, instead
of paying the first moiety, the purchaser would grant de-
bentures to the amount of £25 a year; and, in respect to
the second moiety, he would grant debentures for the MUD
which that moiety would amount to at compound interest