The Sun.
London, England, 1864-04-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF COMMONS—This Day,

The SPEAKER toik the chair at 12 o'clock.
BARNSTAPLE ELECTION COMMITTEE.
The following members were called to the table and
sworn as a committee to try the validity of the late return
for Barnstaple, viz. :—Sir F. Goldemid, Mr, Dunlop, Mr.
Humphrey, Mr. Howes, and Mr. S. Booth.
COUNTY FRANCHISE BILL.

Mr. LOCKE KING moved the second reading of this
bill, with respect to which he said there was such an unani-
mity of opinion amongst the leaders of the house. The
justice of the measure had also been admitted by
gentlemen who had for five and twenty years kbeen
recognised as party leaders in that house. There was
an urgent demand for an extension of the franchise, and
however it might be realised, a bill of a similar nature to
that now under their attention must pass. There had been
many attempts certainly to extend the franchise, but up to
the present time all endeavours to accomplish such a desir-
able object had failed. The bill of 1852 was the result of a
Government defeat—it attempted a compromise and
failed. Then again there were the bills of 1854 and 1859,
which, also, were both unsatisfactory. The bill of 1860,
which might be regarded as the bill of the noble lord
at the head of her Majesty's Government, had disap-
peared like a child—a child badly nursed—it had
never been allowed to take the air, it had never
been ventilated, and its disappearance had been un-
accountable. There was no new principle laid down in the
bill now under attention. There was no novelty in it to
bo urged for the first time, the principle had been admitted
in 1862, and the only question was whether the limit, which
in 1852 was fixed at £5O, should be now restricted to £lO.
The present bill was not merely to add more members
to the electoral roll, but it proposed to allow enlarged
trade, increased intelligence, and a vast number of inte-
rests to be represented in that house, which were now
entirely shut out. He did not believe that the
bill would enlarge the county constituencies to
the extent it was said, viz., 250,000 ; but, even if it did, it
would only be doing that which was but common justice to
the increased intelligence of the ccunty constituencies. It
was said by all parties that a £5O qualification was t .o high,
and that a £lo one was too low; but both parties, he
maintained, were committed to that sum, and he thought
it was too late now to effect any compromise. The
house, he contended, was committed to reform by the
pledges of its leaders—(bear, hear)—and if it post-
poned or further delayed it, the house, be con-
sidered, would be lowering itself in the eyes of
the country. (Hear, hear.) Many of the members have
been elected solely on the cry of reform, and the present
Government had been placed in office solely to obtain re-
form or to do the boat thej could for it. He should like
to know whether chucking a bill on the table, and
getting it erinted—(hear)—was doing all that could be
done towards obtaining reforms. (Hear, hear.) lie felt
the time was come when it was absolutely necessary some-
thing should be done, and he accordingly begged leave to
move the second reading of the bill.
Mr. AUGUSTUS SMITH thought the measure a dan-
gerous and impolitic one, and therefore he should move the
previous question, as an amendment to the motion of the
hon. gentleman who had just sat down. The result of the
bill would be to swamp the town constitutions, whilst the
whole of the present nomination boroughs which amount
in number to about 66, would remain precisely as they
existed. That objection ho should have thought would have
been quite sufficient to ensure the rejection of the bill, but
apart from that there were other and serious °Notions
why the measure should not receive the sanction of the
house.
Mr. KNIGHTLEY said the house was for about the
20th time engaged in a flat, stale, and unprofit-
able discussion which would lead to no practical
result, and he believed had only been brought
forward by the hon. member opposite in order to give him-
self and his friends something to talk about at the next
general election. In his opinion the bill was neither a
liberal one nor a step in the right direction, but, on the
contrary, it was one opposed to all the fundamental prin-
ciples of reform ever laid down, and one that oould not but
be productive of the most endless confusion. It was said
that the working classes, by their education and intelligence
were entitled to admission to the franchise. (Hear.) That
might be true in boroughs, for which the hon. member did
not propose to legislate, but it was not true in counties, to
which the provisions of the bill now under discussion solely
applied. It was said that the country gentlemen were not
the friends of the working classes, but if the division lists
were examined, it would be found that the Ten Hours Bill,
the Factories Bill, the Bleaching Works Bill, and many
other measures which mainly benefited and improved the
condition of the working class, have been carried by the
votes of the country gentlemen. He opposed the present
bill because he thought it would injure the rural districts.
Viscount ENFIELD thought that much embarrassment
was occasioned by discussion on this bill. He did not think
the measure would at all effect the object proposed. He
must say he was not prepared to vote for a £lO county fran-
chise, but one fixing it at £2O should have his cordial support.
The late Lord Herbert was of opinion that that sum was the
proper sum to fix it at, and he entirely subscribed to that
opinion. He wished to extend the county franchise, but
not degrade it; and although ho could not approve of the
motion of the bon. gentleman who had moved the previous
question, he should in committee move that the qualifica-
tion under the bill should be £2O, instead of £lO.
Lord it. MONTAGU opposed the bill.
Lord HENLEY regretted the bill had not been allowed
to pees the house without encountering such opposition,
because he looked upon it as a step in the right direction,
and on the whole beneficial. If the bill was rejected, he
hoped the present discussion would bo found of great aer •
vice in assisting the framing of a better and more general
measure.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said he should vote for the previ-
ous question, because the house was asked to take a leap in
the dark. He objected to the bill because in effect it pro •
posed a uniformity of franchise of both county and borough.
He represented a largo number of 40s. freeholders, who, if
this bill passed, would be entirely swamped, together with
the tenant farmers. He, however, thought the people of
the country ought to have a fuller representation in that
house, but the way to accomplish that was not by bit-by-
bit reform, such as was proposed by this bill.
Mr. WARNER, although he did not approve of the bill
as it stood, thought it would be wise to allow it to go into
committee with a view to improving it. He should, there-
fore, vote for the second reading of the bill. After it had
passed that stage it could be referred to a select committee,
where the whole of its provisions could be minutely in-
quired into and discussed.
Mr. BENTINCK opposed the bill. He thought it
would destroy the representation of the counties as they
now exist. Ile appealed to representatives of the rural
constituencies to join in securing the rejection of the bill.
Mr. NEATE denied that the rural districts were not
properly represented in that house. He believed that three-
fourths of the country was in the hands cf the landed aris-
tocracy. He agreed with the noble lord who in the early
part of the debate expressed an opinion that £2O would be
the proper sum at which to fix the county franchise.
Mr. TREIIEARNE, in a somewhat discureivo first
speech, expressed an opinion in favour of a £2O franchise
for counties. He looked upon the present bill as merely an
attempt to revive a my of reform on the eve of a general
election, with which certain rams might be enabled to

meet the country. He did not think there had been much
argument on the other side of the house in favour of the
bill, but there had been a great deal of begging the
question.

Mr. PEASE highly approved of the bill, and expressed
his intention of giving it his most hearty support.

Sir J. 'WALSH said he believed there was no sincerity
at all in the support given to the bill by the opposite side
of the house, because scarcely any of the hon. gentlemen
who bad expressed their intention of voting for the second
reading had done so without some sort of objection to the
measure. At the present time it seemed utterly unnec-
cessary to proceed with the subject, and therefore he hoped
the house would reject the motion for the second reading
of the bill.

Mr. COLLINS said he had a motion on the paper for
the rejection of the bill altogether, but rather than put the
house to the trouble of two divisions he should vote for
the previous question. He thought the measure a mis-
chievous one, and one that only received but a very quali-
fied support from its most ardent friends.
Lord PALMERSTON said ho thought there might be
some advantageous change made in the county franchise,
but he could not bring himself to vote for the £lO fran-
chise, as laid down in the bill of his hon. friend.
Therefore, in committee be should not feel called upon to
support the proposition. The object of all parliamentary
change should be to procure an equal apportionment of the
trading and commerciAl and the agricultural interests. He
confessed it would have been advisable not to have mooted
the question at present, as there was no desire for great and
organic changes other than those which had already been
effected. What improvements had been madein the condition
of the country, which had been attendant on a liberal, com-
mercial, and political policy, had been effected by the Par-
liament as now constituted, and therefore the people of this
country did not seek any change in its constitution.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
Ayes
Noes
Majority --27
The bill was consequently lost.
TRESPASS (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. BAGWELL moved that the house resolve itself
into committee this day six months.
Mr GORE and Mr DAWSON supported the motion for
going into committee.

Mr. BRIGII r thought the bill would be attended with
the worst consequences in Ireland, and would only increase
the number of deadly encounters occasioned by the illegal
pursuit of game. He therefore heped the house would
reject it. •

Mr "WHITESIDE, on the contrary, thought the measure
a very useful one, and likely to be of great service. He
therefore should support it.

Sir R. PEEL ■aid he had assented to the second reading
of the bill on the understanding that its provisions should
be modified in committee. He had given notice of some
amendments, one of which was to reduce the penalties to
those inflicted for the same offence in England.

Captain ARCIIDALL said poachers in Ireland were
very different from those in England. Poachers in
Ireland was principally carried on by the sub inspectors of
police. (Laughter.)

The house divided, when there appeared—
For going into committee 153
Against it
Majority
The house then went into committee and immediately
reported progress.

REGISTRATION OF COUNTY VOTERS (IRE-
LAND) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
The other orders of thy day were then disposed of find the
house adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening,
THE CASE OF GEORGE HALL.

The Earl of CARNARVON moved that an humble ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty for copies of correspondence
relative to George Hall, convicted of murder at the War-
wick Assizes and respited on the 13th of March. The
noble earl said he did not object to the decision of the Secre-
tary of State itself,but to the mode in which it was arrived at,
In this case the Secretary of State had stated that a par-
ticular thing should not be done, and yet within a fort-
night, without the slightest intention, the exact thing to
which he had objected was done.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took on himself all the
responsibility of the decision as to the disposal of Townley
after his removal to a lunatic asylum. He has also been
consulted by Sir G. Grey in the case of Hall, and taking
only the legal view of the evidence he had advised the deci-
sion announced in the first communication to the Birming-
ham magistrates. But he, nevertheless, felt glad that Sir
G. Grey subsequently revoked that decision on other than
legal grounds, as there were, no doubt, circumstances
the case that in general opinion reduced the murder to
homicide of the degree of manslaughter, and the execution
of the criminal would have shocked the community. Every
allowance should be made for the peculiar position of a
Secretary of State who succeeded to the effico with all its
traditions and rules of proceeding that had grown up in a
long series of years. He exercised a power that under the
present system must be considerably affected by personal
disposition. A stern man would probab,y resist a pressure
to which one of gentler temper would yield. The preroga-
tive of the Crown must of course be maintained unimpaired,
but he wished the Secretary of State could be assisted in
his decisions by some authorised body that could act on
more distinct principles. The whole subject was difficult
and important, and deserved the serious attention of the
Legislature. As to the motion, he would give Lord Car-
narvon every information on the case, but the communica-
tions to him were almost private letters which it would not
be expedient to publish.
The motion was withdrawn, and their lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening,
INDIAN OFFICERS.

Captain JERVIS drew the attention of the house to the
report of the royal commission on the subject of the memo-
rials of Indian officers, and moved that the assurance in
regard to the pensions and allowances of officers in the East
India Company's service should not be departed from for
the future, and that in those cases where it had been
unjustly departed from full reparation should be made to
the parties affected.
Colonel SYKES supported the motion. The hon. and
gallant member entered into a rather lengthy statement in
reference to the subject, and contended that the claims of
the officers in question should be taken into the considera-
tion of Parlianint.
Sir C. WOOD said he admitted that these officers were
entitled to the most complete and liberal justice on the part
of the Government. The whole measure of amalgamation
had been sanctioned by the highest authorities, including
the law officers of the Crown, and it had entailed a large
annual charge. nip a small minority of the officers
affected by the change had any ground whatever of com-
plaint. Although promotion in the Company's army had
been by regimental seniority, this rule was liable to excep-
tions, as where reductions were made, and a large reduction
of the native army had been made since the mutiny. In
conclusion, he intimated that a revision of the scheme was
under the consideration of the Government in concert with
the military authorities.
Captain JERVIS thereupon consented to withdraw his
resolution.
Some further discussion took place, when the motion was
withdrawn.
REPORTS OF SCHOOL INSPECTORS.
Lord R. CECIL moved a resolution that the mutilation
of the reports of her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools, and
the exclusion from them of statements and opinions adverse
to the educational views entertained by the Committee of
Commtttee of Council, while matter favourable to them
was admitted, were vi dations of the understanding under
which the appointment of the inspectors had been originally
sanctioned by Parliament, and tended entirely to destroy the
value of their reports. He supposed cases in which the
practice alluded to might be employed, and asked the house
whether it could trust reports thus exreirgated.
The motion was seconded by Mr. WALTER, who ob-
served that this matter was of a very serious character
The Inspectors were not mere correspondents of the Com-
mittee of Council, but men eminently competent to advise
and inform the house upon the subject. He had reason to
know, he said, that while opinions adverse to the views he
(Mr. Walter) entertained were allowed to appear in Re-
ports, the opinion of an Inspector favourable to his views
had been struck out. This was not fair play.
Mr. LOWE said he was not aware at the case referred
to by Mr. Walter. The Inspectors received instructions
for their guidance in their reports, and if they inserted
improper matter they did not obey their instructions, and
they were required to bring their reports into conformity
with them. They applied the rules and principles of the
committee themselves; the work was that of the Inspector
himself. The charge of mutilating the reports was there-
fore groundless, and the mode in which they were laid be-
fore the house was no violation of any understanding. He
hoped the house would not consent to the resolution.
Mr. W. FORSTER said it had been always understood
that the house was to have the fullest information as to the
distribution of the Educational Grant, and this was a time
when they wanted all the information they could get as to
how this largo grant was spent, with the practical sugges-
tions of the Inspectors.
After a few remarks from Mr. LIDDELL,
Sir G. GREY said that his right hon, friend in the caurse
of his speech had adverted to the practice of other depart-
ments. Ho felt bound to say, as the result of experience,
that it was absolutely necessary that the head of a depart-
ment should exercise some degree of control over the reports
of their inspectors. (Hear, hear.) He had had occasion
some time ago to call the attention of a certain class of in-
spectors connected with the Home-office to the character of
their reports. If no control were exercised they would have
inspectors writing essays at the public expellee.
The house then divided—
For the motion ~
Against it
The announcement of the numbers was received with ;cud
cheering from the Opposition benches.
Mr, D. G:all; FIT. 1-1 moved for lcave to bring in a :Ail to

afford shareholders in joint-stock companies facilities for
voting by means of voting papers.

The motion was seconded by Mr. HADFIELD, and
agreed to.

Mr. DILLWYN called attention to the insufficiency and
' inconvenience of the temporary Museum for Inventions fAt
.youth Kensington, and of the Patent. office in Southampton..
bu ildings, when the house was counted out at three minutes
past S o'clock.