The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-11 00:00:00

far -as the Committee. was cocerncd, the qn-,sttion
14tood. L eonld not he expected Coat ho (Sir J. PAin7..
ington) cc,:i:d act judicially in.such a matter, and as little
could it ho pect,,d,that the Committeo should view ju-
rro.nscdions so many years ftli;cr their
occurrence.—(l3e r.) Con3idering that:fir four cennoti-
Jive years Lord Grey, Who pad origil..4lly dand-ucted the
transfer, bad expressed no ti34tibficte.ry opinions fri re.
,ference to these mat ter., he (ciir J. :Fat nig ion) shrank at..
till's moment from acceptinc.): the reAponsibitity of arbitra-
tion to which the lion. Baronet invited him.--(hear,.
.bear.) He considered that: his (lazy in promoting this
Bill consisted simply in looking to:the Act of 1847, and
to take care that the New Z2aland Coimpany .should.not
be a loser by an arrangement entered, into undotthtedly.
far the benefit; of the colony.—(Liesr,lrear.) The Hon.
Baronet said, "Leave them strictly to . the Act.'! That.'
seemed a very plausible proposal; but in .fact," it would
not be a jams one,. for this particular clause, in the Act
-relating to the terms to be obtained by the-company? was'
so. ~.defectively anima up that the .moat liberal inter.
pretation was required— iThe clause- said that the pro-
c!';eds of the.sales shall be:divided into three portions=--

first, for emigration;
,next for sutveys; andthe balance
to be apporttoned to the New Zealand Cempany. But
then the clause did not epecify the proportions, and there.
fore the company said, " If you,, turn heeover to: a nave
Legislature with that clause, and with nothing else, we
can't tell what cansouctien they may choose to put upon
it." This was obvious, and indeed it might be that .the
company would get oothieg, inasmuch as the t` balance"
under this clause could be presented-altogether.—(Heat,
beer.) Ho thought Lord: Grey had ..put an equitable
construction on the clause, and thaano one putting such
a construction on it „would give the company less ahan-
what was propoeed—one-tourth,
Mr. V. Stdlf II considered that the New Zealand
Company was altogether a trading company, and as sech
he contended they lied no claim whatever on this coun-
try. They had lost their money—ever 600,0001.—by
this transaction. They were destitute shareholders;
their scrip was at a diecount of 75 by the last accounts.;
but still all these circumstances gave them no claim
hatever. He (Mr. Smith) could see no necessiey to
depart from the Act of 1847, unless it wee that they had,
great distrust in the Legislature which they were about
to confer on that eeleity.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. PEEL said there was no doubt whatever of
the existence of this debt being due, to the; New Zealand
Company. He did not underate.nd the speech of the
Honourable Baronet below him (Sir W. Molesworth).
But it appeared to him (Ur. Peel) as ii it went to in-
validate tho debt 4uo to the company; though the
Honourable Baronet adduced no grounds whatevtr on
which to repudiate it. Iu his Blind the question was as
to how the debt could best be discharged in the least
burdensome manner.—(llear, hear.) It was clear the
Imperial Treasury could not discharge it, neither could
the Company of Now Zealand. The debt was charged
on the lands of New Zealand, and by these lands it
should be discharge. They had two courses before
them at present, one, that suggested by her Majesty's
Ministers; and the other
.that suggested by the
:Hoe.
Baronet the Member for Southwark. Same Hon. Gen-
tlemen seemed to think that the Government plan was
one-sided, and in favour of the company;.whilst it ap-
peared to him (Mr. Peel) not to be unattended with
considerable sacrifice en the .part of the New Zealand
Company. The late Government pointed out the way
to expending the land fund of the colony in other modes•l,
of improvement betides surveys and emigration; and of
these the local legislature, under their new powers,
would no doubt avail themselves; such, for instance, as
the opening up and improving new districts, forming
roads and other puhlic works; and in these respects the
colony derived great advantages from the arrangements
which had been made by Government—advantages
which justified Government in making them.
Mr. MANGLES complained that charges bad ,been
raked up, after an interval of five years, against. the
company, though Lord Grey had investigated the whole
in a Judicial capacity, cud had honourably acquitted the
company. It was impossible for gentlemen and men of
honour to sit silent when they heard themselves arraigned
on such charges. Ho was as anxious as any one, that'
the whale of the papers connected with the transaction
st
ehaosu ludn
wb
iani dg eof odroe the
tHh
ionugs e .
which t the
mgshatm
de tl ismy t
ee
passing of this Bill. The company had been charged
with obtaining the Act of 1847 by false representations.
To negative this it was only necessary to state that the
whole of the negotiations had passed through the hands
Of the late Mr..CharleS Buller.—(llear, hear.) lie had
before him a letter from that gentleman, 'stating that he
had examined the whole of the legal opinions, and be-
lieved them to be well founded. He was able to • speak
with the greatest absence of
ioflifcaeunel3nt•
ite a director
anything og
alik 3o
eB3fpersonalhothteNew
Hleoen
rel
ing, inasmuch as'heshoandadnotthetalikeonn'.thßearsolingehtt;esbtuptart
whenin
thesezaia
ntransactions.Hen—
had b
Bthaeen°lfoundPanY f
it convenient to retire. He (Mr. Mangles),
howeher, would not so treat his former colleagues, in
whose integrity he had the fullest confidence.—(Hear,
hear.) All they asked for was, that they should give
them some better security for what they already pos-
6esKcu.....(gear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE had seldom seen the House oc-
cupied with a subject which seemed to be more distaste-
ful to theme--(Hear, hear.) Nevertheless, the matter
wee one of extreme difficulty and delicacy; and they
ought not to let the Bill pass without a strong endeavour
to arrive at a just conclusion.—(Fear, hear.) There
were four ways of proceeding open to them. First,
there was the plan of the Government, who proposed to •
carry over to the Colonial Legislature the control of the
waste lands in the island, subject to the obligation of
paying ss. per acre to the New Zealand Company. The
second plan was similar, except that the amount to be
paid should be one-fourth of the price instead of ss.
Tno third plan was that of the Honourable Baronet, who
proposed to give the control to the Legisleture, but to
leave the claims of the company as they stood. The
fourth plan was one that had not yet been mentioned
in the Committee, ,but which he understood was to
have been brought forward,-namely, that they should
postpone the whole matter until another- year.—
(Hear, hear,) Nowt he objected to both the two first
plats as being more than the New Zealand Company
were entitled to uader the • Act of 1847.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought that• they ought not• to damage,
the position of the company, but, en the other hand,
they ought not to put is in a better position at the ex-
pense of the, colony.—(Hear.) The company relied
upon a letter of Lord Grey; but the Noble Lard had
hen:.)hadno
right to fix the claims of the company.—(aar
The statute gave him no such power. 'Thu-Act of
Parliament said that the expense of surveying 'and emi-
gration should be defrayed, and the rate was to be
fixed according to the exigencies of the public service.,
The Secretary 5.2 0- f htate, therefore, went beyond his
power when he determined what the law had left un-
determined. The Secretary of State might have cora-
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr, • Gladstone) was' desirous of
,mitted,haims
Isieblef,rabluatnheoczludsn.ot bind the public faith.—
consent to either of the two firPsr
making
tewouol,dhonwo-t •
ever, might be combined, namely, that the company
should have one-fourth, provided that it should never
exceed Sc. per acre.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend
plan.e, b l but
The e
(Sir W. Molesworth) had brought certain charges
against the company,
but he (Mr. Gladstone) could not
join in censuring the conduct of the Honourable Baro-
net. The most that could be said against him was that
'
be had chosen to vindicate the public interests against
himself as 000 of thefornier directors of the company.
The charge was that the compact upon which the company
stood had been obtained by fraudulent representations;
athnedirifctlaaiemlisoinn a very
Hon. Baronet proved his
iscase, it would leave
hear.) At the same time the Committee t(lla
oheavrt;
the means given theta of making a full and complete
answer to those charges. At all events, ha (Mr. Glad.
stone) would not be guilty •of any act of injustice to
them.—(Hear, hear.). There was one other course open: •
to them, and that was the.postponement of the whole
matter. Upon this subject he felt a great difficulty in
coming to a decision. He should bo reluctant to make
the proposhism useless the opinion of the. Committee
. were in favOur of it, and until he knew the sentiments of
several Hon. Members who had taken a great interest
in the question, and .particularly until- he knew-those
of the Right Hon. Baroaetthe :Member for Ripon. Tho
proposal of the Hon. Baronet (Sir W. Molesworth)
would be decidedly uttjusnte the company, while on the .
:other hand the postpenement would be just to the co-
lony, and would be a great relief to the Government
and the Committee. • -
Mr. J. A. SMITH was at a loss to understand why
the Hon. Baronet should have brought forward such
charges against the company without informing his
former colleague of his intention. Those charges were
entirely undeserved, and so was the Hon. Baronet's
treatment of the company, who would have been ready
to have given him the most complete information on any
points respecting which he might have desired it:—
(Hear, hear.) In the present state of the session he de-
spaired of a settlement which could either be satisfactory
to the House or to the New Zealand Company, and he
was prepared heartily to support a proposal for the post-
ponement of this land question for another year, on the
understanding .that there should be a Committee of the
House to examine the claims and position of the New
Zealand Comp-my. They had, as he maintained honestly,
to the best of their ability, in difficult circumstances, dis-•
charged their duty to the public and to • the proprietors,
and they ought to have an opportunity. of being freed
from those charges which the lion. Member for South-
wark had brought against them, and their claims
'should be settled on an equitable construction of the
Act of: 1847.
Sir J.IPAK,INGTON said he could not consent to se-
parate the land &awes, to handing over the land fund to
the colouialt legisktture without the claims of the New
Zealand .Coma patty being first provided for, or to strik-
hug the land:clauses:altogether out of the Bill.
WaMO.LESWORTH • said the directors of the
NervQ,,aZd?;loatuda.nCyoii:pt aHy b.ado'noe contradicted one single
allegation thact he had brouteht against them. He should
be r um tune eto,meet them and sustain
Ali. his allegations.
714° 4atendinente was . them:: negatived without a
divSveiesi4nr;d: verbal; chnendnients were : then made in 'the
cleuse, and on the propositionho insert theords "one-
-.
fourth part of the sum paid by t hepurchaser in Inspect
of every such sale or, alienation,. • .
, Sir W. MO LESWORTH • . moved ,to: cubatitute the
worts "one tonth",instead of.one-fourth.
,LO-I:::weree
Sir J. FAKING TON .said that . the circumstances
under which one-tenth ofnhe proceeds
‘;previously offeeed to the New Zealand Company, were
totally distinct from those under which the one-fourth
was given them,
Mr. AGLIONBY submitted that the measure offered
to the company was much shorter than they had a right
to expect.
The amendment was then negatived without a
division.
Sir J. pakington's preposition.was then agreed to.
its 0141)*TONE then moved to insert the words