The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-03 00:00:00

to defend himself in the House, wished, as chairman of the
Committee of 1848, to state that there was no allegations of
bribery made before it; and that at the conclusion of
the proceedings the counsel for the petitioners in the strongest
terms disclaimed the intention of imputing bribery
.to the
sitting Member.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MOWATT begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Walpole), who supported the Bill for the purpose of
disfrachising St. Albans, what difference there was between
that borough and Harwich?--( Hear) He did not gee any
difference in the cases of Harwich and St. Albans, and if one
was disfranchised why not the other? (Divide.)
Mr. BOUVERIE said that, in compliance with the sug-
gestion of the Noble Lord, he would withdraw hi.) amend-
ment.
Amendment withdrawn. The original motion for the
issuing of the writ was then agreed to.
RE-PAYMENT OF ADVANCES (IRELAND).
On the order of the day for the second reading of the
above Bill,

used to me these words—" It is on your part neither courteous
nor courageous." To that I replied—" Courageous is not a
word to be used in that way in this House." And then, Sir,
I left the House.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. ANSTEY—The Hon. Member is perfectly correct in
the report he has made of my words. But he has omitted
the circumstance which gives those words a meaning. He
crossed over to this side of the House when I was endea-
vonring to ascertain the nature of the attack made upon me
during my absence ; 'and, in an excited manner, the Hon.
Member said to me, " You have come back, and you should
have been here to defend your borough." I said, " That is
no business of yours." He said, "It is." And then I
said, " To make an attack on me in my absence for a neg-
lect of duty was neither courteous nor courageous." Those
were the words I used and those were the reasons for using
them.
An Hog. MEMBER—But withdraw then--withdraw
them.
Mr. ANSTEY—I do everything, of course, due from me

—Mr. F. FRENCH complained of the manner in which to the House.
Ireland had been treated with regard to these advances, as Mr. MAHER—Oh, but that won't do at all.—(Roars of
calculated to destroy her industry and depopulate her laughter.)
shores. He begged to recal their attention to the mode in Mr. ANSTEY—If any explanation is necessary lam
which the Irish Poor-law had been established. The report perfectly willing to give it. But Ido not understand that
of the original Committee was disregarded, and Mr. Nichols the offensive language, or the offensive manner of the Hon.
was sent over, and in six weeks settled the question. Mr. Member has been explained, or even alluded to; and under
Nichols stated that under no circumstances would more • those circumstances the House will really see that it is not
than 100 workhouses be necessary, whereas at this for me to speak fiat.—(Oh, oh.)
moment there were 163. He stated that 312,000/. The SPEAKER—Is the House to understand from the
would be the greatest annual expense, but that in ordi- Hon. Member for Youghal that the Hoa. Member does not
nary years 208,0001. would be sufficient. It was unneces- mean anything personally offensive to the Hon. Member for
sary to say how far this estimate bad been exceeded. With Meath?—( Hear, hear.)
respect to the items for which the Bill legislated, he ob- Mr. A STEY (after some hesitation and in a very
jetted to the first of 1,200,0001., but the second he believed solemn voice)—l mean, Sir, nothing personally offensive to
had been useful and fairly appropriated. Neither did he any man.—(Roars of laughter.)
think there was any objection to the third, but he thought The SPEAKER—Is the Hen. Member for Meath satisfied
it should not be called up until the works were completed. with that explanation?
The Hon. Member proceeded to read some figures, from Mr. GRATTAN—The Hon. Member says he does not mean
which he argued that the Commissioners of Works had anything persenally effensive to any man. Now, lam a man;
taken 1,073,0001. more than they had furnished any vouchers and I am therefore quite satisfied.—(Great laughter and
for, or than had appeared on the face of their own accounts. tremendous cheers from Mr. O'Flaherty and the O'Gorman
They had stated that the amount of employment given in Mahon.)
1847 might be represented by 13 millions of people em- The O'GORMAN MAHON (who rose amid cries of "No,
Alloyed one day, and for that they charged 4,500,000 L, no," "Sit down")—Sir, I wish only to make one observation
which would give 6s. 11d. a day for each person; a most i that may be of some use. I have to express a hope that
preposterous overcharge.—( Hear, hear.) In one case they my Hon. Friend opposite ( Mr. J. Clements) will at once pro-
had charged for labour in the barony of Newcastle, county coed with his address, , and this additional hope that the
of Limerick, which bad been presented for, but never per- House will never again degrade itself by entering into such
formed. He maintained the 2i millions would have been - personal matters as have occupied us during the last five mi-
ample for all the expenses of 1847. He contended that Ire- nutes.—(Cheers and laughter.)
land was worthy of consideration, seeing that she had paid The "scene" then closed; but it was some time before the
94 per cent. of all that had been previously assessed. She indications of excitement and amazement subsided.
had repaid 7,413,413/, since the famine, and therefore could Mr. cLEmE&Ts renewed his address to the House; but,
not be charged with any wish to evade just demands. The in the prevalent " buzz" we did not catch his few remaining
rateable value of property in Ireland was not more than about remarks.
nine millions and a half, while the local taxation amounted to Mr. G. MOORE would not support the motion of the
about three millions and a half, and the average total tax- Hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. F. French); and he be-
ation in England was 2s. 31 in the pound, while that of lieved that the Hon. Member had only proposed the mo-
Ireland was 6s. Bd. The effect of the famine ought, and he tion for the purpose of obtaining' the opportunity of making
hoped would be, considered by the Government,' for an a speech. He would not either find any fault with the
amount of capital equal to 00 millions had . been lost peeeent Government. Tho oonduce of the Hoverument had
to Ireland. Since that time, 21 millions had been paid been exceedingly frank and straightforward. They had
for food imported, and seven millions had been expended done all that could 'have been expected from them, and
on the poor. Under these circumstances, could Ireland much more than was to have been expected from the late
bear a fresh tax like this? One-fourth of her population Government.—( Hear, hear.) But he should like to know
had left her, and if this tax was pressed, the diminution how far the financial arrangements of the late Government,
would be more rapid than ever. A Committee of in- and on which thie Bill was founded, had met with the ap-
quiry
of the other House was now sitting on the subject of this probation of the present Government ?—(Hear, hear.) The
Bill, and he thought it ought to be impended till the opinion whole country party of Ireland—all the supporters of the 1
of that Committee was declared. Any money that Ireland present Government—were unanimous in complaining that
was indebted would be better applied to develop her re- they were wronged in this matter.—(Hear, hear.) They
sources, either by railways or some such means, and he demanded investigation into ' the circumstances, which
hoped the Government would duly consider the effect of investigation they thought would bear out their case; and
passing this measure. He should move that the Bill be read they appealed with ail the more confidence to the Chancellor
a second time that day six months. of the Exchequer, knowing that his opinions, as heretofore
After a few words from Mr. O'FLAHERTY, expressed, as regarded the burdens on land, so entirely
Mr. GRA.TTAN said, that Ireland had been wronged and accorded with their own.—(Hear, hear.) It was not many
plundered there be no doubt. The Right Hon. Gentleman years ago since the Right Hon. Gentleman, supported on
the Chancellor of the Exchequer smiled, but he (Mr. Grattan) the occasion by the whole of his party, had proposed that
did not complain of him as he was no party to it. What he a very considerable portion of the relief of the pauperism of
wanted to know was where the money had gone to? He Ireland should be paid out of the consolidated fund. The
was sorry that the Hon. Members for elontrose and Man- argument urged at the time, in opposition to the Right
cheater, besides all those Members who opposed the Irish Hon. Gentleman, was that local supervision was necessary to
Members on this subject, had all left the House. Ireland economy, and that local supervision would be superseded by
had been charged with a sum of four millions; but what a centralised system of relief. ' But such an argument had
had she got by it ? Had the poor been fed, or the people kept no application whatever to a case in which the relief had
at home, or their moral condition improved? Certainly not. been governed and administered by a centralised authority
The poor-law had failed in its objects, besides which in 1849, alone, and in which local supervision and local authority
the expense attendant on it had been four times as great as it was were entirely excluded from control of the funds, or from in-
in the year it was passed, the year of the failure of the potato terfereuce with the expenditure.— (Hear, hear.) He did
crop, which was the alleged cause or its necessity. Look hope that the present Government would act, in regard to
at the sum charged for workhouses. His Hon. Friend the this subject, in conformity with their recorded votes and
Member for Roscommon had quoted a case from Limerick, opinions.—(Hearehear.)
and he (Mr. Grattan) would quote a case from Youghal. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I wish to
He was sorry the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Mem- recall the attention of the House to the real question before
ber for Youghal was absent, but he who was always making us. The Bill before us is really a Bill of indemnity, and the
speeches calculated to get popularity was no doubt so sure facts are these. The late Government, with, under the cir-
of his election in the next Parliament that he did not care
cuinstances, a wise discretion, performed certain
to hear aeything about his present borough. A sum of acts which the law did not justify. They em-
-9,0001. had been advanced to build a poorhouse at Youghal, bodied in a Treasury minute measures which they
capable of containing 900 initiates. This was to be paid to deemed necessary in a period of exigency; and it
the Poor-law Commissioners on the 9th of October, 1851; should be recollected that all the propositions on that mi.
but by a sealed order of the Commissioners, dated in Sep- nute, though they may not have been so comprehensive as
tember, 1851, they declared the first instalment to be due in may have been desired, or so extensive as some persons may
that month, or 16 days earlier than the 9th Oct., on which
have hoped, were all propositions of arrangements of a reme-
the sum had been granted. To this day not a single stone of dial and mitigatory nature. Whatever may be the dife
the house was built Would not this be enough to excite
ferences of opinion on the great question whieh has been
the indignation of so irascible a gentleman as the lion. and touched upon in the course of this debate, namely, the rela-
Learned Member for Youghal, and, if he had not been ab- tions that should exist between England and Ireland with
sent, no doubt they would have had a suitable speech from reference to claims made under remarkable' and I may say
him, accompanied by those remarkable gesticulations with unprecedented circumstances, which will be fresh in the
which he was accustomed to " Adonise" himself.— recollection - of all ' present, there can be' but one
(Laughter.) In the workhouses in Ireland the people died sentiment as to the character of the measures with
at the rate of 1,000 a week. He hoped the Government which the Bill under discussion is connected. They
would adopt a plan he would recommend, which was, to di- were remedial measures—they were measures devised
rest the Hon. and Learned Member for Portarlington, who to soften, to ameliorate, and to relieve; and there-
held an office in the Or Dance to, order out a park of ar- fore I could not have imagined that a Bill like this
tillery, and blow every workhouse in Ireland down. - would have met with any opposition in this House, and
(Laughter.) That was the only way to keep the people least of all could I have conceived that an amendment, to
alive—(Laughter)—and to have peace; but, as it was, they read that Bill a second time this day six months, would
were killing the people at the rate of 1,000 a week under the have come from Ireland, and from the Member fur an Irish
special care of Mr. Nicholas. The Hon. Gentleman then county.—(Cheers.) We can lay no claim to any credit in
went through parts of the Bill, which he declared no one connexion with this Bill save the humble credit of not
could understand, and inquired whether any part of the shrinking from doing justice to those who have preceded
us. The Bill was prepared by the late Government; it was
ben. millions was to be remitted, or if it was all to be
submitted tb my consideration when I first entered office by
paid back by annuities? If so, he did not know how it was
to be done. my predecessor; and it appeared to me that it was more
Mr. CLEMENTS was not anxious to get rid of the work- than a just, that it was an equitable and a kind Bill. It did
houses or the poor-law, but to see them work out the ob- not appear to me that in sanctioning it I gave any general
jects intended by them, and therefore be wished to exa- opinion upon the large question of the state of Ireland. It
mine this Bill. Re purpose era. to leaalieo o treaeery _simply appeared to me notwithstanding the peculiar circum-
minute of last year, which proposed that in every case in stances of the session, and notwithstanding the 'anxiety
which the expense of any union reached 4s. in the pound, which we felt not to crowd the, paper with numerous Bills,
the repayment of the advances should be so adjusted as not but merely to carry out the measures which .were abso-
to cause this sum of 4s. in the pound to be exceeded. Even lutely necessary, that this was an absolutely necessary
if this were so, when the county cess of 2s. in ' the pound measure, and that it was what might be passed without op-
was added to it, raised the local taxation to 6s. in the pound, position, and even with warm feelings on the part of Irish
while in England the average was not quite 2s. 6d. in . the Members.—(Cheers.) It is unnecessary for me to vindicate
pound. He was not one who would repudiate the payment this measure. I have not heard as yet a murmur against
of advances, if it were practicable, but he complained that it. It is not pretended that this is a Bill to add
the treasury had kept the House and the people of England to the taxation of Ireland. The relief which it secures may
in the dark as to the real state of things.— (The Hon. Gen- be less extensive than is desired, but it is a measure of
tleman was proceeding to comment on the report .ot Sir Chas. relief, and it stands on its own merits. Those who support
Trevelyan, when he was interrupted by) it are in no way pledged not to consider the larger question,
Mr. TRELAWNY, who said—l rise to order. I have over- and it is therefore quite needless for me to vindicate a law
heard words pass between two Hon. Members which are not a portion of which has been challenged, questioned, or
calculated to lead to a breach of the peace. . criticised. Some Hon. Gentlemen have intimated that they
[lt will be necessary to explain,. that while Mr. Clements would have-preferred that the whole question should have
was speaking Mr. Anstey entered the House, and after ad- been considered, through the medium of some larger propo-
dressing several Members, evidently inctuiring what had sition. All I can answer is that this is a proposition founded
been said with respect to him by Mr. Grattan daring his upon an examination of the facts, and as a direct remedy to
absence, took his seat on the first Opposition bench by the a certain extent for a peculiar and overpowering grievance.
table. Mr. Grattan crossed the House and sat down next Those who support it are not stopped from bringing forward
Mr. Anstey. Some animated conversation passed between their general views on the subject ; but I cannot understand
them, after which Mr. Grattan rose and left the House. Mr. that any one conld desire that the passing of this Bill should
Trelawny then rose to order.] be postponed, as suggested by the Hon. Momber for Roscom-
Sir A. COCKBURN said he had been an unwilling hearer mon. The Hone Member for Mayo (Mr. Moore) has made an
of words passing between the Hon. Members for Youghal appeal to me, couched in very ornate and courteous language,
and Meath, which he thought required that they should be which I cannot comply with, because I cannot see that it
called on to state that what had passed between them should bears any reference to the question before us. It is enough
go no further.—( Hear, hear.) for me to say that I shall always be ready to uphold gene-
The SPEAKER said that the proper course was to order rally those opinions with respect to taxation to which the
the Hon. Member for Meath to appear in his place.--(Cries Hon. Gentleman ,has referred. But , I must say, not by parti-
of "Go en.") The attention of the House had been called cular acts.—(Hear.) Such principles as I have laid down I
to the likelihood of a breach of the peace being intended be- trust I shell always assert, being convinced of their justice,
tween two Hon. Members, and the proper course was that a and feeling convinced that if applied in a spirit of justice
motion should be made, calling on the Hon. Member for they would conduce to the advantage of the community.--
Meath to attend in his place. (Cheers.) Undoubtedly,' in the consideration of a question-
Sir A. COCKBURN I beg to move that-- of thae kind Ireland is not to be omitted.—(Loud cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was about to I have never considered the question of local taxation and
rise to make that motion, and he begged to second it. omitted the question of Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) On the
Mr. O'FLAHERTY could see no reason for ordering the contrary, I, have always kept , the question of Ireland
Hon. Member for Meath to appear in his place. An Hon. befoie the House, and I have shown how Ireland has suf-
Gentleman had drawn the attention of the House to circum- fered from an inequitable system of local taxation.—
stances of which at present they knew nothing, and they (Loud cheers.) With regard to the general condition of
had been called to decide upon the effect of certain words lrelind—as to the distrese under which she labours; as to
when they had not heard what they were.—( Hear.) He those burdensome engagements incurred in consequence of
would not on such grounds vote for any Gentleman's being an unprecedented • combination of circumstances, from
called to the bar. which she has not yet successfully emerged—l have no he-
Mr. LABOUCHERE could conceive no other course for sitation in saying that there is, on the part of her Majesty's
the House to pursue than to assent to the motion of the Right Government, n sincere desire to review the state of
Hon. ' Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli). An Hon. Member had Ireland in a comprehensive manner, with the hope of
risen, and had informed the House that he bad heard the supplying some effective remedies to those social grie-
Hon. Members in his neighbourhood make use of language vances of which theie has been such loud complaint.—
which was calculated to lead to a breach of the.peace. (Cheers.) But I must tell the Hon. Member for Mayo that
Mr. O'FLAHERTY—Aye, aye; but what language? that:is a task which is not to be undertaken in a hurried
The O'GORMAN MAHON Who knows anything manner—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Moore)—and it certainly
about it? cannot be done in a session in which on every occasion her
Mr. LABOUCHERE continued—And, under these cir- Majesty's Government, like other Governments, are exposed
cumstances, the House would do right in insisting upon the to being " worried."—(Laughter. )• In serener hours we may
presence of one of the Hon. Gentlemen implicated. be able to survey the circumstances like statesmen, and to see
At this point in the "scene," Mr. GRATTAN re-entered the different bearings of all these various questions one
the House, and took his seat, upon the other; and with such opportunity I. should cer-
Sir A. COCKBURN begged that the Hon. Gentlemen tainly feel it to be the duty of the present Government—and
opposite (Mr. O'Flaherty and the O'Gorman Mahon) I should certainly exact it from . any Government, as one
would not hold him responsible for having first drawn the of paramount urgency—to consider the social grievances of
attention of the House to this matter. IL wasahe Hon. Ireland, with the object of applying adequate remedies.—
Gentleman behind him (Mr. Trelawny) who had first asked (Cheers.) It was no idle boast of my Right Hon. and
the interference of the Speaker • and on the circumstance Learned Friend (Mr. Napier), on Wednesday, when he said
being mentioned, he (Sir A. Cockburn) had thought himself that we were prepared to deal with the long-vexed question
sitting Upon to state what he had heard. He had been ef Jandlord and tenant. That is a subject which had
atteed in
I:`‘etiag next to the two Hon. Gentlemen who had quarrelled ; engaged his attention long before the formation of the
eieriateeedn and heard what had passed ; and, haying been so present Government, and, undoubtedly, there is much
had actoehelnhad stated what he had known, and afterwards anxiety to settle that .great controversy.—(Cheers.)
manner
moving euha't the manner pointed out by the Speaker, by • But that also is a question unconnected with the present one.
the Hon. Member for Meath be called upon to It is an easy thing to come forward to this table and to pro-
ception Gable urlace. The words originated in some miscon- pose votes of money to necessitous proprietors. That, how.
in
wh.part of the lion. Member for Youghal as to the ever, is not to my mind the manner in which we should
ratter not tetnether him in h. leh the
Is abse . Hon. Member for Meath had spoken of deal with burdens oh land. We must view that question
the Hon. Member
that
yo
and those words were perhaps of a cha- under its various aspects. We must endeavour to penetrate
near Sir A. e ockburn. ) r
prelee —(Hear, from Hon. Members the deepest recesses of the question, and to grapple with all
Meath intimated that Those words had been resented by its most complicated relations. It is quite useless to attempt
natural to
eeuethali and the Hon. Member for to relieve the proprietor or even the occupier in Ireland
the walls of the House, ee Gould carry his resentment beyond either from the burden of an imperial loan or from the
therefor the Hon. Member of lust to be misunderstood. 'weeenalet,
tte, indeed, in a manner not weight of local taxation unless, at the same time, the tenure
for Tavistock (Mr. Trelawny) g land is placed in a more rational and satisfactory
cockhulenorted to the Speaker what state—unless all those questions which arise from the tenure
pccourtr.redithweas(SvirerAi
?ntweas bound to confirm of land are, at the same time, put in a position which may
is which both the Hon. Gen
ht
haed re°
Gentlemen one rfere in such a matter, offer some chance of a more satisfactory state than that
men entitled to respect, and in which (Mr. were gentle- which for many years has been experienced in that country.
ceeded the other so greatly in years. - It is with those feelings the Government are anxious to deal
Sir P. NUGENT begged that- the Rouse with whateis called the " Irish question ;" and when we have
• se would
stand that be bad followed his Hon. Friend the me under- aspects,rtunity of viewing that question in all its various
Meath out of the House with the intention of ee.mber for and in all its relations, we are prepared to consider
with his Hon. Friend Mate th • e whole question of the local taxation of that country, and
tees right. His argument
said in
,
H was tha
anything that bad been said in the Ouse ought to bet of the particular burdens under which society now labours.
answered in the House ; and he bad asked his bon. Frien We shall do it with an earnest desire to do what we can to
to return to his place and await the answer which the Hon. alleniate the condition of that country, and to remove the
Member for Youghal might think fit to make. His Ron.
treal sources of social grievances. This, however, has nothing
had
odo with the •
Friend had returned to his place, and so far matters responsible Bill before the House. For that Bill we are
been settled, and the House would know what answer the
measures undertaken only officially. It is a Bill of indemnity for
Hon. Member for Youghal would make. i grateful undertaken for the relief of a class which is less
than might have
Mr. TRELAWNY accepted all the responsibility of inter- circumstancesl been anticipated; and under these
faring in this most unpleasant matter. He h P
o ed he had ceive.that this I hope Hon. Members from Ireland will per-
not done wrong.—(Several 'lrish Members—" Very Wrong, 1 sion of th •s not the happiest opportunity for •
e characterwhich a discus-
in Mr. MONSEL
very wrong.") He had acted with the hope of pre rating 1 h „ w
has prevailed.—(Hear.)
.-. would look
further conseqeences.—(Several Irish Members— Pooh.") 1 of t e promises which the Hanxiously for the realisation
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member for Meath having this Bill was a• remission, ore had just heard. No doubt
. returned to his place, it is necessary to withdraw the motion ' there should be za general _ not.it was very desirable that
made in reference to him. At the same time the House .on which that remission /ease° u
based, naltion of the prieciples
will require to hear something from the Hen. Members that to the people of Ireland that they should was of importance
neither Hon. Member will proceed further in regard to this tinct declaration from a member of the r have some dis-
matter. ing the principle on which this Bill w founded.overnment respect -
matter.
Mr. GRATTAN—I am very sorry, for the sake of the an almost miraculous resurrection ioasthe There was
House, that anything lam connected with should take up parts of Ireland, and he trusted that the Governmentcondition of some
its time. I addressed the House •in reference to the Hon. not do anything to tures , t its
progress—(Rear.)
would
Member for Youghal, without intending give offence. ' Mr. ROCHE regretted that nothing a.
to any as done
Seeing the Hon.
on. Member afterwards making Inquiries in relief to the suffering people of Ireland. If the to give
this House, as to what I hadsaid, • f Ireland they ought to express it
aeoyernment
offered him the document res
1 from which I hadquoted, Th -
crossed over to bins sad hada policy or
pecting the Youghal Union, i Sir H. W. BARRON
"eulvn, the Hon. Member lion. Member should N. said he was rather ess
OM Bur frankly.
Prised that the
eele the Pr Gowerumeht to declare
. . . . . .
. . _