The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-21 00:00:00

to cause an inquiry to be made into the conduct of Mr. theological subjects if it were at all possible to avoid it.
Bennett at Ktseingen, and the whole matter to be in- lie, however, concurred with the Right Hen. Gentleman
vestigated. Who teed just sat eleesn, that a case had been mate out
Lord J. RUSSET,L said, he trusted that the state- which not. only invited put el....mended inquiry.s--(ll,ir,
meat jtiet made by the Right Honourable Gentleman op. hear.) For if any inieister be instituted into a beim flee
posits would be the'meens of relieving the greater per- , of the Church while he waa in factoOr was likely to be,
tion of the Members of that Ileum) from considerable ! a member of some other Christian communion,, it was a
embarrassment.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it imps- state of things which ought-neo be 411Pw64!: ,And 4
sible to deny that this was a subject upon which this 1 the law he not strong enough toeereyent en.* an abuse,
House had a right to demand tin explenation. Re could iit ought to made strong enough --(Hee.r,,hear.) The
Hon. Friend ! Hon. Member for Warwickshire (Ur. Spooner) said, by
not agree in the opinion expressed hy his
the Member for, the University of Oxford (Sir R. FT. ' moving the previous question they were, shelving. the
Inglis). when it appeared to him that he would exclude 'main proposition; that was not the case. ' 'By the course
tlis House from any right of inquiry in respect to I they were taking they were simply saying thet the
matters of this nature.—(hear, hear.) This, Hens() i question shetild not now, be put., Chia was an important
was a party to the passing of the Act of Uniformity, end centideration in reference to the motion before the a-fuse.
at that time Protestant Dissenters were members of it. Let him cell the Hon. Member attention to the facts
and .he was not (pito sure bat Roman Catholics might connected with it. A niteioo stood on the netice-hOok
of Uniformity having been pissed by
have at in it.—(No, no.) But at all events, the Act for a fortnight or more, by which it'wes intimated that
them, this House the Hon. Member for CoCkermouth. was geittg to call
had a right to ask whether the persons who were ap- attention to the institution. of Mr. .„ Bennett to the
NeW, until ye4terdey 'the House.
pointed ministers vier,
eyordidE faithful members of the vicaraee of Frome.
ae Churchfact,
th negoltabn3dl—onTear, hear) —or whether, in wai-na'aware. of the precise intention of' the Honour.
,
to some other • • M h . for Co •kermouth.--e(Hear hear) So
Chrietien cum- ante em r r s, .
munity. Ravine tiles -
, us established their right to make little was he (Mr. Walpole) aware of them, that he asked
such
inquiry,
he owned he felt the dff 1 toe •
greatest i eat ty in gees io t. n of many of hie own friends, end the': were
proceedine.
,to exercise it—a difficulty arising both in utterly unconscious the motion of the Hon. Gentleman
respect to the node in which the inTiiry was to be ex- was about to take the turn it assumed in consequence of
ereisecl, and to tee conseqeences to which it might ilia- the notice given by him lAiit night.' Ha meutimied the'se.
neately lead. He could not but feel that if a Commission feats in common tairness and justice to thoie parties whe
were appointed, which had no greater powers than were were implicated by the speech addressed thin evening by
now allowed to the Crown, and ehich could not be had the lion. Member to that House,' to show that they
explaining without a special Act of Parliament, they might rather . ought to be allowed a proper' opportunity of
. ,
provoke hostile refusals to answer, and make dissensions- the facts and cirennestances-of the' case as far as they
between teis branch of the Leeisletnie .and a portion of related to them. He referred to the Bishop-of London,
the, clergy of the Church of England.--(Hear, hear.) the Bishop of Bath and Wells, end the patron of the
He could not but fear also, feet after such interference living. Under these circumstances. he asked if the moy:
the remedy would be found insufficient. He felt, I.ke. ing If the preCious questiou was uotehe prewr course
wise, the want of that assistance which they had in fore to take. Hi. would follow it up by saying., 'het in een-
mer times, in the presence of those Members of the sequence of the ehtervetions of his Noble Friend oppo-
House who were particularly qualified to give an opinion site, supported as they were by the Right Henoureble
upon such a question. They wanted informadon upon Gentleman the. Member for the University of Oxford,
those points upon which the Right lion. Gentlemen the • that the Government wouldin a friendly spirit institute
Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed himself in doubt such an 'inquiry at was suggested in reference to the
and besitaien—namely, how far an appeal would lie institution of Mr. Bsnuett to the living of ' Frome, and ,
from the Bishop of Bath and Wells to the Archbishop particularly in reference to' the question whether the
of Canterbury, and how far the late could be brought law could be made to meet the evil of which they to .
to bear in matters of this kind. He must say generally eomplained.—(lear, beer.) Mote than that
that they were, in a great degree, uninformed he hardly thought the Government could he galled
upon those points. In respect to what the upon to undertake. The. Heusa might call upon them
Right Honourable Gentleman opposite had last men- to do that, and the Government would be prepared to
tioned, the circumstances under which the case came obey that call.—(Hear, hear.) Ile thought that this was

before the Bishop of Bath and Wells were at present
unknown to the House. It might be said by some Hon.
Members that that furnished an additional reason for
inquiry. He concurred in that opinion, but at the same
time he owned he felt the greatest hesitation-in proceed-
ing to give a vote in favour of an address to the Crown
for an inquiry that was to begin with the House of Com-
mons. It. as the Hight Hen. Genilemau who spoke last
said, it was a proper subject for inquiry, and that there
ought to be a full inquiry made into it, he telt the better
course would be to wait until some of the Ministers of
the Crown were able to ascertain more of the facts, and
to obtain such expl.nations as they might think fit to
ask for in the most frienliy spitic, and trot with a view
to anything like accusation and impeachaaent. If they
made such inquiry, they would then be in a much better
position to consider in their places in the House of Com-
mons whet course, under the circumstances of. the case,
they ought to take. Ho could not but think that it
might be finally the duty of the Ministers of the Crown
—not to make new laws upon the subject—but to pro-
vide for the more easy operation of the laws already in
existence. Those vino were most learned on the sub-
ject had informed, him that the roints of the
greatest difficulty were in ascertaining what those
means were which should be resorted to for re-
dress. The whole subject being one of transcendent
importance, and fraught with consequences so serious, he
should certainly, for nis own part, be inclined to hesitate
before giving a formal v to upon the subject, and as the
case at present stood he thought it better to leave the
matter in the hands of the Ministers of the Crown to
consider what steps should be taken, and whether any
more facts could be ascertained to ,be laid before the
House. Until these steps were taken he could not
assent to be a party to an address to the Crown.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said, a question had been
asked whether subjects of this nature could properly be
brought before the House. On one p ilea it was evident
that this House alone was the proper tribunal to discuss
such matters; and that was, in asserting the rights of
the laity against the usurpation of the priesthood. He
was now contending against things, and not against
persons. He cared little whether a man called himself
a Papist or a Protestant—he was against that man who
said that the priests were the Church.—(Hear, hear.)
Whatever might be the lapse of time that had occurred,
the original law was unquestiont bly this, and he believed
that the present law nom was, that no person could be
appointed over any flock in the Church without that
flock by some means testifying their acquiescence to such
appointment. That was the point they had to maintain,
and unless they maintained that all their motions and
commissions were utterly useless.
Mr. SPOONER thought that the case would be much
worse, and the consequences most serious, if, when they
were told the facts which were then disclosed, they, the
Commons of England, were to say that these facts should
not be entertained by them—they would meet the mo-
tion at once with the previous question.—(Hear.) HQ
agreed with the Right H an. Gentleman the Secretary for
ihe Colonies that the inquiry was one that ought to be
raised, and must be disposed of. But was it disposing of
it to say that he would not entertain it? He said fear-
lessly that that was not the way the country would con-
sent to have such an important question treated The
turn which the discussion had taken exhibited a tendency
to leave out the main points submitted to them. The
facts of the case, which, according to the statement of
the Hon. Member for Cockermouth, could be easily
proved, were these—that a professed clergyman of
the Church of England, who was dismissed by his
bishop, or rather whose resignation was obtained urn
certain terms, which convoyed the opinion of the
Bishop of London 'of his being unfaithful to his •
Church, had been living abroad for several months,
during which time he was in the daily, habit of at-
tending the Roman Catholic masses; that that man
was now acting as a Protestant clergyman, having 'been
instituted by a Protestant bishop to preside over a Pro-
testant corigregaion.—(llear.) He tidied whether such
a statement as that made in that House was suffi il.nt to
justify them in voting for the previous question? He,
for one, could do no such thing; neither could he absent
himself from such a division, as he believed others wore
about to do; that was not his habit. His constituents
had a right to know his opinions, and their opinions' •
should be represented by him in that House. If the
que,tion go to a division, he must vote for the motion
of the Hon. Member for Cockermouth. But it was yet
in the power of the Government to take the proper
course. They had already gone half way—he wished •
that they would go the whole way. He wished them to
say that they had made out a strong prima facie case,
into which the House of Commons wes bound to inquire;
and they might then ask them to pause in such inquiry,
because they did not think the mode now proposed was
the most s tfectual one for the purpose of such inquiry—
that they themselves would enter into au inquiry, and
would reef i:emend the Crown to take immediate steps
for such inquiry, and that they would come to Parlia-
ment for additional powers if they thought it necessary
to do so, in order to remedy that which was a great
and is growing evil. That was the course which the
Government ought to take, and not to meet the proposi-
tion by moving the previous question.
Mr. MANGLES said that his Hon. Friend the
Member for Cockermouth did not ask the House to
turn its into a tribunal for this inquiry, but merely
wished by his proposition to put the matter in a proper
channel for a full and searching investigation. He
thought that the real weakness of the Church consisted
in the concealment, of such facts. In his opinion, the
strongest point for an inquiry was whether the Bishop
of B,th and Wells did institute Mr. Bennett with the full
knowledge of his recorded unfaithfulness. He would,
however, recommend his Hon. Friend to withdraw his
motion, as they bad received a plain, explicit, and un-
mistakeable pledge that a bona fide and searching inquiry
would be instituter%

; the proper way of proceeding, in order that Lull justice
to all parties might be done, and not by an address to
the Crown, founded upon what was after all uncertain
information. In Order, then, that the question might
be simply and satisfactorily investigated, the Govern-
ment were anxious to carry out the inquiry in the spirit
suggested by the Noble Lerd,.if they were permitted to
-do so.—(Eleir, hear.) • .
Lord R. GROSVENOR said that but for the promise
which had been made by-the Right Hon. Gentlemsn
' (Mr. Walpole) on behalf of the G ,vernment, he should
have felt it to be his citify to vote f,r the motion of the
Hon. Member 'for Coelternaituth (Mr. Horsman) ; but
efter the proarse had be, n mido that the subject whiCh
had to-night been brought before the [louse should be
thoroughly investigated. and in a friendly mantier, by
the Government, and that they would then come forward
and state whether or not it was desirable that the law
should be altered, he trusted the Hun. Member would
not press his motion to a divisi )n.
Mr. AGLIONBY toped the opinions of those Hon.
Members who agreed with hie Hon. Colleague in think•
ing that an inquiry was demanded in this matter, which
was one certainly of great heportance to the nation,
would be shoem to the public by a division upon 'the
subject. He could not concur with the Noble Lord who
spoke last, when • he said he was satisfied' wit the speedi
of the [Lime Secretary—(Hear, hear.) For his part, he
should like to know, first, when the leptiry was to 'be
made, by whom it was to be made, and when the House
would have an opportunity of considering and decidieg
upon the report of such an inquiry. So far from being
satisfied, then, his previous dissatisfacrion was only in-
creased by the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
From tne Chancellor of the Exchequer he heard not a
word about the concession of an inquiry. Oa the con-
trary, the Right Hon. Gentleman said the House of Com-
mons was not a fit place for theological controversy, and
that it was inconvenient to discuss these questions there.
True, it want not the place for theological controversy;
bur, in his opinion, it was the place of all others in which
ae appeal ought to be made for au inquiry; and bethought
the House would not be doing its duty to the country if,
it did not express its wish and determination that at in-
quiry should be made —(Cheers.) He hoped, there-
fore, thet his Hon. Colleague would divide.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HOUSMAN (in reply) said he had not the
smallest difficulty in deciding as to the course which it
was his duty to pursue, though he had certainly some
difficulty in• reconciling the various reasons which had
bsen urged upon him for adopting a different course.—
(Hear, hear.) Before noticing them, however he must
be permitted to say one word with regard to .the extra-
ordinary attack, he might (it'll it, which had been made
against him by the Right Hon. Member for the Univer"-
sity of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone). That Right Hon.
Gentleman set out brobserving that, at the proper time,
he would be prepared to impugn and disprove some of
hise(Mr, Horsman's) most important statements. Now,
considering that these statements had been made in the
presence of the assembled House of Commons, he
thought the proper time for confuting them was the time
at which they were made, and that the proper company
in which to confute them was the company in which
they were made.—(Cheers.) But the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman did not think it a convenient time, and wished
to postpone his ceufutation to a more appropriate
season.—(Hear.) He (Mr. ilorsman) invited the Right
Ilooourable Gen.lein.ti to confute ht.. statements. 0!
said the Right Hun. Gentleman, "I will do so now ;"
and he thereupon proceeded to notice one of those
statements, but left all the others untouched. In ee-
cleavouring to show, however, how capable he (Mr.
Hotsman) was of misquoting, the Right Hon. Geittie-
man was himself guilty of one of the grossest miequota-
tions he ,hid ever heard in • that House.—(No.) Ile
would prove it —(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
said that he (Mr. llorstioan) had stated that the
me-
morialists called upon the Bishop of Bath and Wells to
institute an inquiry, and that to that
had
o petitionhlr a
chteervde
the Answer which he (Mr_ Foreman)
as a haughty answer—an answer which breathed the
spirit of Leud.---(Cheers.) Now, it so happened that he
did not apply these expte,sione to the answer which
was returned to the memorial. but to the answer which
was returned to the second letter addressed to the
*Bishop of Bath and Wells. He had stated that that se-
cond letter of the Bishop well deserved to be charac-
terised as he (Hr I:larvae:o had characterised it. Tnat
letter was an answer to a meek and reasonable request
to give the parties 14 days more• delay, and it was that.
`anew er which he had • designated as haughty. and as,
brewhing the spirit of Laud.—(Cheers.) He asked then,
whether the Right Honourable Gentleman had not made
a charge 'which he himself must feel was totally un-
becoming his p sition in that Howe?—(Cheers.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman said that he (Mr Roraima) must
be aware that he had not honestly quoted the 'documents
which he had brought la, fore the House. What was the
me-suing 'of that? Did he mean that, holding a document
in his hand, be (Mr. Uorinan) had falsified its reading
to the'House; the Right Hon. Gentleman having a coun-
terpart of that document in his own hind the time,
and being fortunately able to detect it?—(Crieers.) Was
that the Right Hon. Gentleman's ;wailing?' But he
would not pursue the subject further. He would leave
it to the Right Hon. Gentleman and the House to say
whether, for the statement he had made, he deserved an
accusation which he should be eshatned to make against
the Right Hon. Gentleman or any other Member of that
Houss,—(Cheers.) Of the manner in which his motion
had been treated by other Hon. Gentlemen who had
taken part in the debate he bad not the smallest dis-
position to complain. He must admit, as the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had observed, that the motion was
an embarrassing one. It was equally true that every-
thing connected with those questions which respected
the Established Church, and which so much agitated
the country, was most embarrassing. But what was
that Church of England of which they had been speak-

Mr. GLAD) CONE said that they had heard a long
series of allegations from the Hon. Member for Cocker-
mouth stated with great ability. It seas not, in his
opinion, at that moment fitting that these allegations
should he examined into. He was hound to say, from
a partial knowledge of the case, that ho disputed, and
he was ready to ..confute, many of the allegations
made by the lion. Member, and to show that lie had not
Tien correctly quoted the documents to which he re-
ttear:r:d. This challenge he was ready at that moment to
pwr_ii:y:ooff Theutha Tlon. Member tells him to do so. He
would do m 0 so,me oat! d wTohuel diiceoen.fine Gentleman himself onlystated to
tonehat casethe
rbeisfu
ialeacilldtooapautesce.
ethpaentidtiWoneelrlas,,
wasin aaskmeoddetsot
inquire, but that the haughty prelate of B
atand
n and
consider
Wellsan humble
and
Now ho (Mr. Gladstone) held in
Frome, who Wacasethlet, published by a Mr. Crutwell, of
Mr. Bennett, and formerly adverse to the appointment of
rial referred to, distisugeotlemate in quoting the memo-
was not to consider steecji7 stated that the prayer of it
the institution of Mr. puire, but it was, not to grant
whether " to consider andrPett,
lle wanted to know
as to refuse institution to mel:enre" was the same thing
the Hon. Member in thinking ti
jantett. Heconcarred with
most serious. If a man who pretentdhPse allegations were
of the Church of England was in e
ad to be a clergyman
member of the. Church of Rome. ction or in heart a
such a man d
condign punishment. However inexpedient i eserved
make that House the scene of theelogioei dit was to
this was still a question which could )3,careai
Y ct3ssion,
eluded from their consideration. He. however,roleiz"
the purpose of declaring his obj, ction to all vague or inr
definite pledges. • It
was right that they should know
what the is-tie of these proc,edior was to be. Nothing
would induce him to agree to a motion calling upon the
Crown to do in a formal manner what he knew it would.
fail in if it attempted to do it. But, at the same time, he
admitted that a most serious question was raised—
namely, whether the Bishop of ritseh and Wells, in pro-
ceeding to institute Mr. Bk.itiett to the living of Frome,
had acted according teAbe letter and spirit of the law.
As !het was the seeestinn, of course the whole conduct
of Mr. Bennett wai relevant to that. It appeared, then,
to him, that the 'Government, instead of agreeing to en':
address to the Crown, must, in a friendly spirit, make
such an investigation into the facts as would enable them
to judge what further steps should be taken in the
matter. lie for one had for a long time felt that the
eceleseastical law was in A most def ctive and imperfect
condition in respect to a case which, though a rare one,
was yet a possible case—numely, that in which it might
b o necessary to pet the law in motion against a B!shop
for the purpose of t
in, y i., him up to his duty. Ho fully
concurn d in the sugges ion of the Noble Lord the
Memeer for London,
Mr, WALPOLE said it weft. to iae._ deprecated. the.
viitkiiig the aßifie a CopiD2Oßi the arena for dimming

ing ? Was it not it Church that had been established
by Act of Parliament ? Did it not rest upon an Act of
Parliament ? Did not its ministers receive their privi-
leges-and pay under, an Act of Parliament ? And if the
Parliament of England had established a church, with a
staff of ministers for the propagation of a particular
faith, and the teaching of certain doctrines, and it it
were alleged that the men who were the agents and
servants of that.church Ased their priviliges and their
power to teach very different doctrines, then he wanted
to know whether the Parliament, which had established
that Church far certain purposes, was not in reality
the very tribunal' to consider whether those purposes
had been answered or not ?—(Cheers.) The R•ght
Hon. Gentleman the. Chancellor of the Exchequer said
that the motion, was.. very vague and indefinite
in its character. Of course he . (Mr. Horsman) was
quite prepared, in bringing forward an ecclesiastical
question' for the consideration of the House of Com-
mons, to find it met as a question of great difficulty,
delicacy, and embarrassment. He knew well, that the
first ground, which would be taken was the technicality
of his motion. He knew that if he had proposed a Com-
mission it would have been objected to, and that the very
03,4iititei"eritdolYsit "P°n
Nitsothing
else thin
fact of its being a definite course would have laid it open
to difficulty. Wnat did be do then? lie proposed
merely that her Arajeity, as head of the Church, should
be petitioned by this House graciously to institute an
inquiry—that inquiry being, of course, carried on in the
manner which hat been suggested on that (the Opposi-
tion) side of the' Elouse, upon the advice, and under the
responsibility' and direction, of the Ddinisters of the
Crown.—(Hear,' hear.) fie proposed that the Hause of
puotimatnis bhodtd 'address her Majesty for au inviry;
obl.on ho left ttsohnize'euhlmdttieiidrzeo otfuoinpiry expressly open to the
~ , nor was
itti fovrertnlacneeHntlou;:t.towlisc' dictate f°rihhiealin t°whseutgsjrLdl4e the
iserptilow::-11
mode of . „.. • •• • . ,to • 9 should
quirY" the L'lllrY'
an
their
inquire to institute that
purposely
inquiry in
most efficient and
le: tu biry,ll!.:7(cerilte his inoien expressly and
a mariner as they, might . deem
quc,,stionwe.e
b andut ;throe
must
as rt ::: •btd,r• ;„,:ehti:otiteollt!:anenttdrlo,,
ari:t:li esivteenriryne t fa.
theirurl)l, e
tae!,
rpheanaewndedrsas,
11Mieisters in-
stituted the inqui
---fer he knew well what
inquiry?,
and
had to do was to
the
a Parlia-
" friendly in
alt (Rear' hear.) It
tthheesyewa• "uftreideitiodlsytiaieorri;4l:;)
wanted was a judicial inquiry. this thous®
iilnaquiry he
smeettininarf.ipooctoma
ci_a,taright
provided the
ment iTistituted such an inquiry, ho w„ m , •1„ . . ern-
to demand a judicial inquiry, and
(3t WHIM, to
judicial inquiry would ha satisfactory,
~,dteYhebeerusg.:neoliireistoin
especially after"
the admission of the Government that ~ the, citleStiQa
leave the mltter in their hvids.'
to rut .where it tie • ' •
ought not: to be Seffsred ; thaf it
was t9c• important to be 14 there. Under these fair.

ctimstances 'he did not think ho should be doing his duty
if he consented- to withdraw the motion.—(Cheers.)
lie had hrtmeht it .forward with a specific purpose,
b 'cause he felt that the evil wee growing and ought to
be met ; tied hevieg done this he should certainly press
it to a division.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. GLADS-TONlOrwas sure the House would feel
that, after what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman,
some t tees necessary on his Dart.—(Hear.)The Hon. Gentleman had stated that he (Mr. Gladstone)
had charged him with not beving quoted "honestly" a
document to which he had referred in the course of his
speech. Now his (Mr.. Gladstone's) memory might err,
like that of others; but his recollection was strong that
he had never used such- en offensive or improper word.
—(Hear, hear.) If he had used it, he would be the
first to apologise for having, dune so; but he had not
used the. weird " honestly,' and he bad merely charged
the Right Hon. Gero-lernan with not having quoted cor-
)rectly.—(llear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR .of the EXCHEQUER ex-
eleiced that Mr. llorseaen had very mute, mistaken
What he had addressild to the. House. Ile (the Chan•
cellor of the Exch.-quer) had never denied fur one mo-
ment the grave importance of the _
SU j ct which the
l 3 e. Gentleman
h'-c1 h -rung% forward. In fact he had
stated that it wee
iMPeseihiseto exaggerate its import-
ance.(Flear, hear.) Het observations were addressed
to this—that he did not toe) that the proposition which
the , Hon. Gentleman had made would meet the
difficulties with which they had to contend; that the
ciecumstanees on which he had dilated were very ics-
perfectly known. to Hen. atemeee„f that House;
and, listening, with great, attention to the Honourable
Gentleman's statement, he acknowledged at once, its
vast imaiertanee, at the sanie 'gine that he said it did not
appear to him that the proposition of the Hon. Gentle-
matt was one which would meet the difficulty; but he
had no wish whatever to convey to the House the im-
pression that he-did net hinaselt feel the absolute neces
sity of inquiry. When the Hen. Gentleman said that a
" friendly inquiry" had been offered but that he re"
Exchequer) must tell him that the difficulty which he
qeired a " judicial inquireee
felt when he first rose, and which he still continued to
he (the Chancellor of. the
feel, was that he did not see linv at present advised a
t
judicial inquiry could be instituted. He would not talk
he could not promise
a judicial: it:Autry. All he could say was that there
.
of a friendly inquiry, bu certainly
~hould be a bond fide inquiry;. andsunder the circum
Gentleman ought to ask her Nea
T ;
esty's Government to
do.--(flear.)-- The subject brought before the House-
Important as it was—wits surrounded with difficulties.
stances of the case, he thought that was all the Hon.
-
No person could ountend that There Were means of insti.
the part of the Government that the
tuting a judicial-inquiry as at. present'advised, and he
couldn
e inquiryu
tnan
s
The 'louse divided, when there appeared—
Fur Mr. Horeman's 80
Against it •-• ••• ... 100
tn shouldci Ye
s say
a alleged:—([leer.)
og bd.—(Elear.)
a bond fide inquiry into the grave air
Majority against the motion —2O
• FOREIGN REFUGEES.
Lord DUDLEY aTUART, pursuant to notice, rose
to make the toll- motion:---"•Copies" or extracts (it
soy communications-which hove passed between the Go-
verneeetit of this coentryeand Turkey, and Other foreign
the Hungariaa and
Governments,•respecting,
other refu-
gees detained as Ktutayah, from the date of the las
dispatch on this subject, a copy of which has been laid
before this House up to the present time (its continuation
of papers already presented to Parliament)." It would
be in the reaullection of the,House that very early it,
1850 he drew their' attention to the events which' had
taken place in-Hungary and Turkey, and
particuiarly to
the demand made, as he thought most Unjustifiably, by
the Governments of Austria and Russia upon the Sultan
for the surrender-of certain refugees,'
who, after having
taken part in the struggle which had then recently pre-
vailed for. the liberty and independence of Hungary,
nod sought an asylum in the territory of turkey. The
Noble Lord the Member for • Tiverton, after stating his
opinion on those ' transactions, agreed to lay 'on the
table of the House a selection from the dispatches
which had passed between those different Govern-
ments. A very considerable time elapsed before those.
papers were forthcoming, and it was not until-1851, after
he had reminded his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) of
his promise, that the'promise was fulfilled. His Noble
Ehisnd then laid on the table two dispatches, one. or
which related to the refugees who had been shut up in
Turkeyee Ili present motion. only contemplated a con-
tinuation of those dispatches. -All that he asked was, that
inasmuch as this correspondence only came down to
April, 1850. that they-should-have other papers laid on
the table which would bring down •the correspondence to
the time of the liberation- of those refugees on the Ist o'
September last. The Noble Lord atlhe head of the late
Government had said, that if those papers were laid nu
the table of the-House they_ would prove that the British
Government had in reality. done that which the Ameri-
can Government claimed to have done, namely, to have
effected the liberation of the captives of liiutayrith. The
present Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he (Lord D.
Stuart) applied to him ou this subject, very obligingly
said he could not think there would be any objection to
the 'produetien of thoie• papers, but that ho must
consult the Foreign- office before he could consent
to their production. He (Lord 'D. Stuart) had since
tearnt with regret that the Right Honourable Gentle-
man would feel it • his dtity to oppose this motion. Ile
was at a loss neknow on what grounds such a motiot,
could be resisted. lt was well known that when the re-
fug, es from Hungary sought shelter in Turkey, the Go
vernmente of Austria and Rtissia addressed to the Sul-
tan a demand at which the feelings of all Europe re-
volted, that those refugees should be delivered up to tie
veugeence or those Governments; and if the ISritist,
Gov, rument had been so iestrumental, as was repro-
rented, in proeuric,, the liberation of the. captives, that
of itself was a sufficient . reason . why the dispatches it,
question should be laid ou the table of the house. 11
was very glad that England and the United States were
United an the liberation of Kossuth and the other refu-
gees; and he did nut at all. Waist to detract from the
merits of the United Stutter in what they had done; but
his belief was that- thettlossissippi might have remainto
at the Derdaitellee till thii tone it it had not been fie
the energetic representatipna made upon the subject be
the British Government. If the papers he asked for
were -granted, this fact would be established—if thee
ivereeirithheld the House and the country would have a
right to complain that they did not receive the information
to.which they were entitled.' 'The papers ought to be
given for the justification of the Noble Lord the Member
for Tiverton; and while he did net want to impute per-
sonal Receives in the attempt to withhold the papers, he
must say there did appdar to be' something like a want
of generosity to the late Government in now withhold-
ing them. The only reason that could be given, for
withholoing them was, that it might be unpleasant to the
Governments of Austria and of Russia to have it shown
that the representations. of the British ambassador at.
Constantinople were attended with more weight than
theirs were; and further,-that these papers might show
great vacillation on the 'part of the Porte as to 'the
liberation of the refugees'. 'But he thought these reasons
were not of weight sufficient.to yestify the withholding
of these papers, and therefore he 'would move the reso-
lution of which he had given notice.
• Mr. HUME seconded the motion, on the ground that
the people of this Country had taken a great interest in
this question, and had held meetings on the subject from
one end of the country to the other, calling on the Go-
vernment to interfere on 'behalf of these' refugees. He
thought, therefore; the papers ought to be given, in or-
der to show that the confidehce of the people had not
been misplaced, but that the Government had exerted
themselves to carry out the wishes of the 'people.
Lord PALMERSTON—A. 3 I am much Concerned in
the correspondence to which my Noble Friend has al-
luded, perhaps I may be permitted to take the earliest
opportu ynit after the quelation has been put to state that,
so far as lam concerned! and I believe I may say also
for the Government of which I was then a member, that
we have no objection to granting the motion of my
Noble Friend. it is a fact known to all the world that
these refugees wore detained in Turkey for a eonsiderable
portion of time, against the natural wishes of the
Turkish Government, but in deference to the apprehen-
sions and the wishes of the Government of Austria. I
am not hero to blame or to find fault with the Govern-
ment of Austria ..for the feelings they entertained with
regard to these persons.—(Rear.) They did entertain a
feeling of alarm, which WAS no doubt sincere; but it was
the opinion of her Mejesty'a Government that Austria
had no right to dictate to the Porte in what manner the
Sultan should exercise the- right, of
hospitality towards
Persons who had committed no offence against Turkey,
and that he was entitled, if he chose, to set those
refugees
free. The British GovernMent did, by my intervention
and by the exertions of her. MeHty's ambassador at
Constantinople,- repeatedly and constantly
urge upon the
Porte to give way to its'sewn- inelinations, and to permit
these refugees to leave Turkey. Of course everybody
who knows the relative strength of Turkey and her
powerful neighbour twill at once see that, with every dis-
position to act upon the generous feelings of the Suit ,n,
there-were nevertheless considerations. of prudence and
policy which interfered with his free choice in a matter
of this kind, and it became therefore
important for
Turkey that it should be able to all in support of the
wishes of its own Government the urgency of a foreign
t
Government pressing upon them to do that which they
felt to be just and proper. In what. degree the Aimed-.
can Government contributed to, produce this result, I
am not able to state,. -No doubt, it exercised its influence
to accomplish the same purpose which we laboured to
achieve, but the correspondence* ill show what was done
by the Brats • • h Government.- That is al I which the House
is concerned to know. I have
e_s. only further to say, that
by a careful seleetion
of the papers-- of the dispatches
the -replies from
from the Foreign-office, and
what her Ma-
jesty's ambeisadar—it willEfforts
ti what success of the British Gevernaientean
th.n,
that
s attended
thote eff oda, without containing al, i g would be
tiff-es:eve to the feelings distressieg.r toit thes opinions of
the Governments eider of Austriei Russo,, I shell
; of m urietel. -
therefore •upliort the motnon 3:LitN
X
The CHANCELLOR of the CEIEQUER --The.
s,a.ed
Noble Lord who made this metion•fh
gapers j'Ye."
truly
that I held the opinion, a 'pries 0 .
having been
placed on the stable of the•House' with regard to a coin.
• df; hce; it was Upon the
pitied diplomatic correspon
' d
011C0
whole dcsirsble that the sequel of flat correspondence
should be given, but that ou a subsequent occasion I
told the Nettle Lord thereafter- itiquimeg' at the Foreign.
office, I' had reasen to doubtewhet
her that would a
'prudent course. I can assure the Noble Lord that be
w -
any desire to e did not arrive at. that conclusion trem._
Clear, tract from the,merits of our predecessors nowt);
a, d
hear.)
' The,
.fact is, there had been,. as is well K greet
•
deal, Of acrimonious, feeling on the existing _ subject
bet rreefi the various': COarts • which were mixed up in
ny
`feelings of acrimony this question. - Happily, all those
- are now allayed. There is new aa-
between undentandhig as
there has been soarsfw time past,the Courts
of Constantinople and of Vienna, and it was apprehended
bth—tii chit, upon the whole, it weali be better that this
Mal Qf 001704011d0E108, which. was fraught with petufia