The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-08 00:00:00

E SUN,

sepiatedly said 'before about the punishment being ins
le gal, and net tined fur British suajshte.
Lent JOCELYN said he did not rise to defend cr.: to
discuss the punishasent of fleggims.—(Hear, hear.) He
heel long deemed it outs which ought only to be inflicted
for clegrcelieg offences—(Hear, hear)—and he believed
it was now only applied to such ()liens:Gs by of tiers in
the army.--(hear, hear) He was persuaded that no
more painful duty could be performed by any effiesr -
than sitting on a court-martial which might find it its
duty to sentence a soldier to this. punishment.—(llear,
hear.) This was not, however, the fitting time or me
cesien to disease that questioo.—(hear, hear.) When
that time.aed -oecazdon arrived, ho should be ready to
unite his voice with those who held flegging not a pu-
nishment to be Inflicted in tieneofposaceetn an
-nd in
(Ile
jaur.s)tice ofs B,t
he begged•t point out the itopni3n
exempting the militia from all :Waffle), to the punishment
to which the regulers were in seine eases subject.---
(Hear.) Now, let it be recollected that the regulars end
the militia might be centened in the seine quertersand
would it lee just th it a soldier coemitting a certain
off pee ,heuld be seirenced to the punishment of fl To.
ging, •arai a raili:hitaan who .committed the same
offeuee be eau-noted from 0--(Flear, hear.) SuselY-
etieh a course wsuld excite the greatest jealousy hc."
tweerh the teo fore--
stthreucp7isthealtehil: flietTne(talioefar'hiihtho.a--r)(7-lllenadr, hoar.) dr;
was true that the Irish constabulary-were not. liable to
hut their pay was.sa far stipe:ioreo
that of the army that, fear of dismiesel was in itself suffi•
cunt to deter from crime. If this were so in the
at;ll.lh corporal penisbment could be dispensed. with; of
course, as it was, it melt be retsinetl, at least in time of
war, or for de railing effences.
Mr. WILLIAMS reminded the Howe that in 1809,
when a member of a heal militie corps was sena:need to
be fl .gged, the whale regiment turned out to prevent
the stritence from being inflicted, and it had to be ex-
ecuted under the sabres of a battalion of German troops.
Mr. CLAY raid his answer to the questien " Would
you inflict the punishment on the regulars and not on
the militia?" was, " I would exempt bob forces from
—(llear, hear)—and one reason why he voted for the
exemption of the militia was, that he believed after such
exemption from it, it would not be retained twelve
months in the army.—(ticar, hear.)
Colonel SALWEY rejoiced to raise his voice against
the retention of the punishment even in the army.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber for Chippenham (Captain BoIdero) somewhat incon-
sistent in now proposing the infliction of corporal pa-
rliament, whereas he had formerly voted against it.
Corporal punishment was the disgrace of tho army, and
ought on every ground to be discountenanced.
Colonel PENNANT, on the contrary, was of opinion
that corporal punishment was necessary for the main-
tenance of discipline. It was only bad soldiers Who
feared the system.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel KNOX was of opinion that corporal punish-
ment ought to be held in terrorem over the regular army
and the militia alike.—(Hoar, hoar.) If the Mutiny
Act were waived, ho did not think any militia could be
got at all; and if, as gentlemen of the Manchester school
contended, only vagabonds would be got to join the force
it would be quite as well to have such n means of en-
forcing discipline at hand.—(llear, and laughter).
Colonel CHATTERTON raid that corporal punish-
ment was only resorted to in very extreme cases; but
thou,ght it ought to be retained as a safeguard.
After a few words from Mr. HODGES,
Mr. WAKLEY said he could see no justice in in-
flicting corporal punishment on the private and letting
the officer go scot-free.—(Oh, oh.) No one could
deny the debasing influence of this mode of punish-
ment. The beet authorities concerted in testifying
that the character of the army had much improved
since the flogging code had been mitigated. The
cases in which the punishment was retained were
most trivial, but so diverse were the definitions,
that the punishment could be inflicted in nums
hatless instances. Leaving out the question of
danger to life, inseparable to such punishment,
he contended that the mind of the soldier must break
down under such a debasing system. As a medical
man he was prepared to assert that fifty lashes could
not be inflicted without jeopardising life, and that
alone ought to bo a reason why the punishment should
be discontinued. He contended that what they called a
lash was a compound instrument of torture, each cons,
taining eight or nine lashes, with knots on each. Whe
were they going to lash? They were taunted on that side
with saying that they would only have the scum of so-
ciety to volunteer; but the Government had said that
they would have none but respectable men, and they
were going to blast the prospects of these men for life,
for no man could ever hold up his head if once subjected
to such degrading punishment. They might all recol-
lect the difficulty they had in inducing the military au-
thorities to deprive soldiers of their bayonets. It was
considered that the soldier was degraded if he went out
without his steel instrument, and many lives were lost
by the system; but in the end public feeling and public
opinion prevailed, and the scalier. was deprived of his
weapon. If they attempted to pass the present measure
in opposition to the feelings and opinions of the people,
they would prepare for themselves a lash which would
inflict neon them continual torture.
Mr. E WART contended that great advantages had
been obtained by the diminution of severe and degrad-
ing ptinishments, and it might be inferred that further
improVement would result from a still further decrease
of those punishment?. The Secretary at War had ex-
pressed himself averse to flogging altogether, and hoped
that he might yet be able to dispense with it. Ho un-
derstood that this degrading punishment would in future
be only inflicted for degrading offences. It was said that
50 lashes were the greatest punishment that could be in-
flicted; but then the punishment was very unequal as
well as degrading. The Han. Gentleman then referred
to a case that had occurred some years previously, in
which a soldier stated that he had been subjected to the
punishment of 500 lashes for a trifling offence, for which
the punishment was altogether inadequate end excessive.
He bud been punished for merely asking the question
" What am I punished for?" Although the House would
not patiently listen to the arguments against the Bill,
they might depend on it the country would give its ver-
dict against tie measure.
Lord JOCELYN said a few words in explanation.
Colonel PEEL begged to state that that was not the
crime for which the man was punished and the Hon.
• Member knew that as well as he did.— (Cheers.)
tiir W. VERNER made a few remarks, which did net
reach the gallery.
Mr. EWARP rose to complain of the remark just
made by the Hon. and Gallant Colonel opposite—namely,
that what he had stated was untrue.
Colonel PEEL—No, no.

Mr, EWART was not saying anything hastily or,
unadvisedly. He understood the Hon. and Gallant
Member to say that what ho had said was untrue, and
that he knew it to b 3 untrue. Ho was sure the Hon.
and Gallant Colonel would, upon consideration, re-
tract it, and it ho did not, he should be obliged to tell
him the truth on the subject.—(Great laughter from
both sides of the House.) Lie should toil him what be
had said was not true.—(Cries of " Order.")
The CH XiII.MAN (Mr. Bernal) said, ho was sure
the Committee would join with him in thinking—
Mr. EWART again rose, somewhat excited, but was
met by cries of " Chair," " Order," &c., and the Hon.
Gentleman resumed his seat.
Colonel PEEL said that the extract read by the Hon.
Gentleman was perfectly true. The evidence was fully gone
into before the coroner, and the case was fully discussed in
that House, as the Hon. Gentleman .must be aware if he
read the debate. The ground referred to by the Honourable
Member was not that upon which the sentence went. He
would recommend the Hon. Gentleman, if he had not already
done so, to read tl: e debate that took place in that House at
the time.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON, amid considerable noise and opposition,
attempted to speak. Ho said that there was evidently a con-
fusion between the two cases. The Hon. and Gallant Gen-
tleman appeared to be under the impression that his lion.
Friend was speaking of White's case.
Colonel PEEL.—Not a bit—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON—Then ho did not understand - (Loud
laughter.) His Hon. Friend said that a person on oath
before a jury stated that for such and such things he un-
derwent the punishment of 100 lashes. Now, it the Hon.
and Gallant Gmtleman could show that that statement was
untrue he was of course at liberty to do so.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Bmoiiv rose to speak, but was unable to obtain a
hearing for several moments. The confusion that pre-
vailed was considerably increased by the circumstance of
Mr. Hume also rising and attempting to speak at the same
,time.

Me. BRIGHT at length was understood to say that his
Hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Mr. Ewart), not
having heard distinctly the observations that had been made
by the Hon and Gallant Colonel, laboured under a wrong
impression as to what had been said in reference to him.
The Hon. and Gallant Member had made no charge whatever
against him. .
a_ Colonele SIBTIIORP said that there was no more honour-
the honourp
Manchester) co urttheavne
ever happened
c o ur court-martial; a rttoi a lh;e
broughtand i fth
he
elrloor Hon. .0
nMeehmeloe Member
wouldfo r
be treated as he deserved.—( Laughter.)
that the
Colonel THOMPSON said that ever since he had had
fact ?—they
which altogether
reafoarseat in that House he had always considered
to
the
ee of corporal punishment was a great bane
and injury
rooted. discipline of the army. What was the
wished to put this facet was
the discipline of the arniy upon a ground
of discipline
before the enemy, when the ob-
servanceof so much importance. He
beforethree-fourths
the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite—namely, that
to his passing this Bill areoes'fourths of the popular objections
wbo were forced by the baltotfr°l° the feeling that the men
,ti uponsa
nc
i 1 l
Wren, questionwould
express
opinion.t e
Mr, HUME said he hoped thtoatsesrOhynleewinoeu:
member
re
oefu subjected tce da
Cabi-
net, corporal punishment.
condition of so many
tobserve a silence
upon it, but
_the depart-.
.I,elot
Mr. WALPOLE said that lie 9
upon the subject from a disinclination toil
he thought it Wd3 a matter that lay score in
meat of the Secretary at War than of
opinion that this should be viewed as a general,' question,wof
whielt could not be satisfactorily determined atthatt
.
-On the abstract question, whether it was adviSable to deo.
I away altogether with corporal Vunislinient,- be was in-
disposedto ,
give an opinion. The House having, how_
ever, passed the Mutiny Act, under which soldiers were
those who
liable to corporal punishment, he thought the only ques_
tion they had to determine was this, shall
were enlisted in the militia be placed upon a better footing
could assent to this
He did not think that the Committee_ e _ !s
then those soldiers who served in. the army ?—(llear.
proviso with the kuowledge of that fact
_befeF them.
Suppose that some of the militia force ware, placed in
ll be, that the
1 gar-
rison with the soldiers of the regular army, if they agreed
nature
1 to the proviso the consequence would
- soldiers of the army
punishment from which thyo mil would feel themselves degraded .
in being'
th
I were freed.—(Hear.) He believed that he was putting e
i.tiameg
liable to corporal n
argument fairly. If they wished to determine this ques-
-1 tion in reference to the militia, they must determine it also
in reference to all their forces, whatever they might be. And
supposing hereafter they entered into the general
upon which he declined then to give an opinion, and that
' they decided corporal punishment was not to be inflicted
in
ne
the.it:fl iaertien(3l,nspoo
long
nthge question
imyeirleititah.eyßhuotuhada
applyto
00ng t tihtea'yiseliloP
upon the army, he then said that it certainly ought not, to
kept it
militia.—(Hear.)
Ur.IIUUL reallucliAl the r 1,
- t 1-1911. Lin4li.llllf+A that

LONDON,

there were two classes which came under the law—the one
those who enlisted voluntarily, and the other those
who were drawn by the ballot. lie contended that the latter
class, at all events, should not be subj:cted to corporal
punish-cent.
Mr: BR IGITT —The 11,,ght Hon. Gentleman would bear. in
mind that the BlUtiny Act contained a clause which expreszly
stated that the provisions- of that Act were not in any case
to be applied to militiarno.n, unless the Act raising tile mi-
litia should specialle place the militiamen under those provi-
sions. Thus the Mutiny Act itself admitted the principle
that there was a difference betwen the force respecting
which that Act was originAllv naF.stol, and the body which
was to be raise', under• this Dill. Farther than that, the
Right Hon. Gentleman would see that the clause which he
had in'roduoed into the Bill, referring to the clause in the
42d George 111., carried the very same distinction -to a cer-
tain lergth, an I only put "theta under the Mutiny AC, ex-
cept so far as regarded life and lirnh. The principle of the
distinction was, therefore, already admits ed, and all he (Mr.
Bright) now proposed was, that there should be added- to
this exception of lire and limb the further exception of flog-
ging—tb; Mutilation of the hack by the use of the laSh.
The Cominittec diVided, and the numbers'were—
-92
Ayes ••. •
Noes _ ••• ••• •- len • •
_ .
•• —lO7,

Majority ...• • •••
• The-proviso was :accordingly* lost. . • •
Mr.-ROEBUCK•then•movml that the Chairman-6 report
progress, and ask leave to sit again.
The motion was agreed to, the Haute resumed, ;and. the
CII.URNIAN reported progress. .• •
Mr. BRiGif asked when theißill would come on 'again?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
would take the Afonday next, after the queStiorii-of
the St. Alban's and Sadbury Disfranchissmett were iU3
posed of.
The Stamp Duties (Ireland) Continuance Bill passed
through Committee • •
PROPERTY-TAX BILL. = •
On the order of the day being read for going into Commit-
tee on this Bill, • . • -
Mr. HUME objected to • going on w:th it at that late
hour.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he never
would have moved a stage of the Bill if he thought there
was any objeztion to it. Nobody was compromised by, ap-
proving of its principle. It had been intrOthiced, on the
understanding, as he thought, that Hon. Gentlemen were to
give every facility to its passing. He meant, if they went
into committee, to introduce a clause which would cause the
law as it referred to schedules A and B, to remain the same
as last year.
The House then went into Committee, and the several
clauses having been agreed to,
The CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER proposed the
clause referred to, the object of which was to provide that
the assessment under schedules A and B should remain the
same as under the Bill of last year. So that there should be
no new assessment.
Mr. BRIGHT—That would produce the same effect as
if the Bill last year had been passed for two years instead
of one.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Just so.

The clause was agreed to.
The House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported
progress.
The Apprehension of Deserters from Foreign Ships Bill
passed through Committee.
The Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages .Bill
passed through CoMmittee.
The Highway. Rates Bill was read a third time and passed,
as also was the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction BiU.
PROCLAMATION FOR ASSEMBLING PARLIAMENT
BILL.
On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK the House went into
Committee on this Bill.
The preamble was postponed.

•
Clause 1.
Dlr. WALPOLE wished the consideration of this clause to
be postponed until it was Ascertained whether 35 days would
be sufficient to assemble the new Parliament. •
Mr. ROEBUCK said the House of Lords would not pass
the Bill if that point had not been settled.
Mr. WALPOLE doubted the fact. There was no objec-
tion on the part of the Government to the principle of the
Bill; all that was desired by them was information. He
therefore moved that the Chairman should report progress.
The motion was agreed to.
Lord J. MANNERS then moved for a Bill to amend the
Act 9th and 10th Viet., c. 39, for the embankment of a por-
tion of the River Thames.—Agreed to.
COUNTY ELECTIONS BILL.

Sir E. BUXTON moved that the County Elections Bill be
read the first time.
Mr. ROEBUCK moved that the house should adjouui.
Mr. WALPOLE said the Bill was not a Government
measure; every gentleman was at liberty to give his vote on
it as he chose.
Mr. COBDEN Totested against the principle of the Bill
as the greatest insult ever offered to the electors of this
country. Ha was glad to find the Government disavowed
it, and he was surprised to find the Hon. Member advocating
corruption. The half-crown tickets sanctioned by the Bill
would be looked upon as a right, while it would not stop
treating, and he hoped the Hon. Member would express his
shame and regret at having introduced it.—(Laughter. )
Lord GALWAY thought the Member for the West
Riding had gone much too far in his remarks. It was usual
and reasonable to give refreshment to voters who had come
from a distance, and he hoped the Bill would be perse-
vered in.
• Mr. ROEBUCK deprecated the imposition of such a tax
upon candidates. If the Bill were carried he should propose
that the expense be placed on the county rates, and not borne
by the candidates. • •
Air. W. BROWN agreed with the Hon. Member for the
West Riding of Yorkshire. The Bill had a most demoralising
tendency.
Mr. K. SEYMER said if the Bill was seen it would obviate
the necessity for throwing away so -much virtuous indigna-
tion. It was preposterous to,suppose that county constituen-
cies could be bribed with 110-a-crown a head.—(A laugh.)
M the law stood, however, no county Member could con-
sider his seat safe; for; if his .agent were seen along with a
voter, he would be liable to a petition. He should, therefore,
support the-motion. •
Lord R. GROSVENOR would oppose the Bill, because he
ic l thought elections were ex pasive enough f!lready..
. . .

Sir J. TY RELL had had some experience in contested
elections, and he thought there should be a clear understand-
ing about giving refreshments. The last time he stood for
Essex there was a serious opinion among the Liberal party
that he and his colleague should be unhorsed, because of this
refreshment, 'which had been arranged with the opposite
committee. It would he desirable if the House decided the
question. lls (Sir J. Tyrell) had no experience of a dry
election; and he was afraid, • although the Bill fame from
the Liberal party--(No, no)—he always thought .the Hon.
Member was a Alembor of the Liberal party.— (No, no.)
The Bill laid down a self-paying principle, and the Man-
chester school always looked to that_point. As a matter of
self-interest he (Sir J. Tyrell) might support the Bill; but
he did it, besides, because human nature was unchanged.
The 'Hon. Membet who introduced the Bill should, above all
others, be the last to countenance a dry election.—( Laughter.)
Sir E.BUXTON said, as far as he was concerned, he
desited perfect 'purity of election, and his reason for intro-
ducing the Bill was, that it was impossible, as the law stood,
for any man to declare his election had been perfectly pure,
seeing that he had to answer for his agents. It was the
fact, that there had always been an agreement in. the \Vest
Riding between the parties, and that these tickets were con-
stantly issued; and he also believed the same state of things
existed in Lancashire. The main reason for the agreement
in North Essex was to keep the multitude of voters within
the law, and to curtail the expense of the election. Taese
agreements were the cause of the introduction of the Bill.
Until human stature was altered, the constituencies would
consider they were conferring a faveur in voting for a candi-
date; and the poorer voters would be discontented if they
were deprived of refreshment. As the law stooed, thelass of
SaMs
punishment was inflicted ou the man who gav a g
ale to an elector, and the man who gave `,:o!. It was.. like
inflicting death for every offence.
Dlr. W. WILLIAMS knew a borough where the influence
of the half-crown was all powerful. A candidate who bad.
refused to give it was denounced in the most unmeasured
terms of vituperation. To pass such a Bill as, that before
the house would be to sanction direct bribery.,_
Mr. BOWKER offered his thanks to the lion. Baronet
for the Bill. His constituency, many thousands in number,
had to come from a distant mountainous country, and it
would be cruelty to prevent them from obtaining refresh-
ments. There would be no purify of election until Mem-
bers made a solemn declaration to that effect at the bar o!
the House.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... • 61
Against it ... ••• "" -
Majority ... •••
The Bill was accordingly negatived.
The House thenadjourned at a Quarter before Two o'clock.

-16

PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEES.
FROME, "YEOVIL, AND WEYMOUTH RAILWAY.—Yesterday
the Committee of the House of Commons passed the preamble
of this company's 13:11, for incorporating and giving powers
to raise capital of 550,000/. and 183,000/. by loan, to con-
struct a railway between FroniP; Yeovil, and Weymouth,
with power to leasa by the Great Western Railway.
EASTERN UNION RAlLWAY.—Yesterday the examiners on
standing orders declared that, is the case of this company's
Bill for additional provision, the standing orders were com-
plied with.
LORD REDESDALE'S COMMITTEE.---oome excellent regula-
tions have been introduced by Lord Rede'sdale, the chairman
of Committees of the House of Lords (assisted: by other Noble
Lords, and Messrs, Smith, Palk, Birch, and Adams, assistant
examiners of Bills), for the prompt prosecution of business,
and it is surprising to find the number of Bills that are dealt
with aad disposed of, between one and five o'clock. Yester-
day their Lordships had eighteen Bills before them.

' Tan LOSS OF Tun BIRKEDIHEAD.A second court-
martial in reference to the loss of the Birkenhead steam-
troop ship, Was held' on board the Victory, at Portsmouth,
yesterda(Friday), to try the remaining officers and ship's
company of that vessel for her loss. . There were pnt on
trial—Mr. William Culhane,,assistant-surgeon ;" Mr. C. It.
Renwick, assistant-engineer of the first class. Mr. Ben-
jamin Barber, assistant-engineer of the third class; Mr. G.
W. S. Hire, clerk; Mr. John Archbold, gunner; and the
whole of the Surviving portion of the crew, comprising
forty-four men, "four boys, and five privates of marines.
Several witnesses having been examined for the defence,
the Judge. Advocate read . the following finding:-;-" That
the Court is of opinion that no blame is. attributable to
Mr. 'John • Archobld or the 'other surviving officers and,
crew of the Birkenhead, tried for the wreck of the said ship,
or for their conduct subsequently thereto; but, on ,the con- ,
•trary, the •court sees reason to admire and applaud the
steadiness shywn by all in the most trying circumstances,
and the conduct of those who were first in the' boats, and
who, to the of their judgment, made every exertion for
the rescue Of-the portion of the crew and passengers who re-
mained.upon the wreck.- In this expression of praise they
desire to ineude those. who have 'been acquitted on the
present and previous courts-martial, and the court cloth fully
t." acquit the said John Archbald and the other surviving
°
and crew of the said ship Birkenbead, and they are
hereby acquitted - d• ~,
...e?.or inieiy. This terminates the in-
quiry int() the circumstance's attending the lozs of the Bir-
kenhead steamer. • .
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