The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-07 00:00:00

Mr. HUME Said the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
Misinterpreted what had fallen from him. He did net
complain of the Right Hon. Gentleman's inattention, but
of the general inattention of the House at the moment.
lie referred to the noise and crowding of Hon. Members
at the bar, and to the inattention of the officer whose
duty it was to prevent the confusion. If one Sergeant-
at-Arms was not enough let them have two or three.—
(Cheers and laughter.)
Mr. W. BROWN hoped they might be allowed to
proceed with the hu,iuess before them.
Mr. HUME said that on one condition he would not
divide—viz., let all those gentlemen on the floor of the
House at the bar go to dinner.—(Laughter.)
The Hon. Members referred to having withdrawn to
their places,
Mr. HUME said that he would now withdraw his
motion, and he hoped Hon. Gentlemen would be better
conducted.
Mr. E WART then proceeded to address the,,Conii-i
mittee, contending for the necessity of consolidatingaial.
the Militia Acts before proceeding with the present 'The question was a poor man's question; for the
work-
ing men could not be supposed to understand all. the.c.
Acts referred to in the Bill, or the provivo3aerwe,n,o'hon
were based upon these Acts. He contended, th •
were
until the requisite consolidation was effected, they
justified in opposing by every legitimate means the pass-
ing of the Bill.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Hume's amendment ... 82
Against it ... 165
Majority .. —B3
The amendment was accordingly lost.
Mr. M. GIBSON then moved to insert the words
"deputy-lieutenant" after the word " appointed," in line
20 of this clause. The deputy-lieutenants would have to
decide on claims to exemption from service In the mi-
litia; tbey were invested, therefore, with judicial
powers. What he (Mr. Gibson) contended for was
that the choice of persona for the duties of deputy
lieutenant should not be confined to persons having
2001. a year landed estate. The amendment
went to abolish the property qualification for deputy-
lieutenants; and it it were not adoeved he (Mr. Gibson)
should move a proviso making individuals with a cer-
tain amount of personal property eligible to that office.
He should also propose to abolish the property queha"
cation as regarded majors in the militia and officers
above that rank, on the ground that he did not see what
landed property had to do with military talent and effi-
ciency.
Sir J. TYRELL did not understand the repeated at-
tacks of the Manchester gentlemen on the landed in-
terest —(llear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman was
formerly a landed proprietor in the county of Suffolk
himself, and he was now put forward to prove the pug-
nacity of the landed interest. He (Sir J. Tyrell) should
feel no jealousy if the Right Hon. Gentleman made so
many bales of cotton a qualification; and he was willing
to enter iato a treaty of commerce with him on the sub-
ject. But he could not understand why these absurd at-
tacks—he was going to say—were made on the landed
interest, except it was for the purposes of the hustings.
These motions were neither useful nor advantageous,
and he hoped they would be discontinued.
Sir J. WALSH. said that deputy-lieutenants were not
necessarily part of the militia; he therefore thought the
amendment was not in order.
Mr. BERNAL decided that it was in order.
Mr. WALPOLE thought the amendment proposed
would not work satisfactorily; ho could not, therefore,
consent to it; but he agreed with much that the Right
lion. Gentleman had said on the subject of the personal
qualification and he should not object to the proviso, as
regarded officers, if it was fixed at 2001. a year personal
qualification.
Mr. HUME said, it would be better to leave the ap-
pointmnt of all officers to the discretion of the lord-
lieutenant.
Lord PALMERSTON considered it would be very
essential to the militia service to have one field officer
neo had served in the line. He, therefore, thought that
rvice in the army should be tantamount to a qualifi-
cation.
Mr' WALPOLE said that was already in the
9Mr' NE WDEGATE thought it highly inadvisable
eputy-lieutenants should not be locally ac-
intet the
deputy-lieutenants
with the county through residence.
After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT,
Mr' WALPOLE said the lord-lieutenant would have
hfie—
eehwer of appointing a military man without any qua-
a at'°n, and also the power of appointing, in case the
wtnended proviso which he (Mr Walpole) suggested
_as adopted, individuals possessing personal as well as
(eat estate of a certain amount.
the k
The
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the II,'"
a ation should e ut upon the same basis as
arliarnentary qualifibcatipon.
m!r• PACKE said landed property generally implied
'"ence; whereas the possessor of personal property
ight be absent when his services were most needed.
t. Mr. EWART said that personal property was recog-
Illed asa qualification in certain counties and cities—
ri atol and York for instance.
Sir E. COLE BROOKE was of opinion that the ap-
pointments in question should be left entirely to the
lords lieutenants of counties.
Sir P. THESIGER said there would be a difficulty in
Case of the descent of personal property.
After some further discussion,
Colonel SIBTHORP said, as so much difference of
iti▪ hnion existed with respect to the mode of qualification,
e, w°llld be advisable if the Right Hon. Gentleman the
_ecretary for the Home Department postponed the con-
sideration of that part of the Bill.
Mr. HUME thought the qualification ought to be left
entire] with the lord lieutenant. The dispute on this
clause only showed the necessity of consolidating the
Whole of the statutes on the subject.
Mr. M. GIBSON said, as he understood that Govern-
ment agreed to the principle of his amendments, he
Would withdraw them on that understanding.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, it must. be under-
stood that a different qualification would be required for
different ranks.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
it was important that the deputy lieutenant should be
'Deafly connected by qualification. At present the quali-
fication was irrespective of locality. He did not see how
'4O could make an exception in the present case.
f ille• BRIGHT thought it was unjust to have a dif-
17en t amount of qualification for different ranks. Be
„oeed Government would abolish the gradation qua-
nfication, and fix the qualification at a m.derate sum.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
consider,„ the militia service was a pure military service.
'a thought that some difference in the qualification
ought to be retained.
Lord SEYMOUR hoped the question of promotion
was still reserved by Government. He trusted that pro-
heotion "would be attainable without specific qualification.
r_ Mr. WALPOLE said, whatever was the amount of
_eal property qualification, Government would now ac-
rpt personal qualification. The lord-lieutenant would
higher
Power to appoint one officer from the line to a
..""on :Igher post in th
erstood) e militia without reference to qualifica-
(vve und.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 4, after discussion, was agreed to.
• by On clause 5 being proposed, in answer to an objection
Mr. W. WILLIAMS,
Mr. WALPOLE said it was requisite the Crown
should have the appointment of the sergeants (we un-
derstood.) The militia must be drilled by regular ser-
geants to become effective.
After a few words from Mr. Williams, Colonel Sib-
thorp, and Sir C. Burrell
Mr. WALPOLE', in reply to a question put by Colonel
Gilpin, said that the sergeants would ld betaken from the
regular army, but would go back
to the army after the
drilling of the militia was over. A distinction might
be taken between the enrolment and the embodiment of
the militia. He intended to move a Proviso
to the clause,
that during the time of embodiment the commanding
officer should have the appointments of the non-com-
missioned officers under him.
Sir G. GREY was in favour of the Crown retaining
the power of appointing the non-commissioned officers.
The more the Crown possessed such a power the more
efficient would be the force.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 6 was amended, at the suggestion of Mr.
WALPOLE, to the effect that all officers now holding
Commissions in the regular militia should, subject to
%itch regulations as might afterwards be made by the
Secretary of State, continue to hold such commissions
to the militia to be raised. The Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman added, that he had stated the na-
ture of the clause and the alteration, in
country,order
o
correct an impression that
prevailed
that the old militia officers were to be deprived of their
seek.
Mr. 110BHOUSE—Does the clause prat theyvideth,m
a,teayx -
ibeng officers "shall be" continued, or
t
':
.cottinued? A great
nine
Jur. WALPOLE—"May be" continued.
of age, and an
e el of the officers were now 70 years_
'PPortunity of retiring would be afforded them.
The clause was then agreed to.
On the next clause.
e
Pa
CHARTERIS said he had placed a notice on the,
had
Per relative to the number of men, and as
that notic
k
dsotne reference to the clause, he hoped the Commit-
tee
would allow him to state the general grounds why he
tt;bad placed it on the paper. The House seemed agreed
d testaneh,ieeters:ittny ° measure of defence was required, but agreat
of opinion existed as to what constituted , real
• Having gone into Committee on
.the present
Were such as to render it an effective measure of defence.
It
was essential in the first place, that they should come
,eeelear understanding as to the nature and character
'ne 'danger against which we had to guard ourselves.
need hardly remind the House that with respect to a
we:lit/3°llring country we were not now in the position in
St we were at the commencement of the ceutury.
t 0 na,s`n had undoubtedly facilitated the concentration of
the'-'1,1 and attack, and he believed that in proportion to
0 'acting of attack would be its probability. They
ipught, therefore, to consider whether the measure
Zold' provide a force capable of resisting an invading
.!". Yof regular troops, The opinion of most
Men was that a militia, drilled only for twenty-
;3l:l(l days in the year, was a force utterly incompetent to
etchBo,ooo
the attack of regular troops. The Bill proposed
80,000 men should be drilled twenty-one days in
ti Year. But in his opinion it would be better that
al,ey should limit the number of men to 40,000 or 50,000,
that those men should be more efficiently trained.
ti.,e Would, therefore, suggest to his Right Hon. Friend,
Secretary for the Home Department, that they
oatti raise but 40,000 or 50,000 men, and that those
min should he drilled fifty-six days in the first year, and
e
'eia
pevedays in each of the tour following years. Ho
d that under that arrangement they would effect,
4:: me five years a saving to the amount sof one-third of
re expense which would be incurred under the Govern-
e
tit proposal. He wished further to ob verve that he
eel.o.li_ght they would. do well to remove the compulsory
naves trona the 13111.--(seir, hem %) He hoped his