The Sun.
London, England, 1864-05-06 00:00:00

THE ARMY ESTIMATES.

After some remarks from Sir H. WiLnou*GanY and Mr.
AIiGERSTEIN, the house went into committee of supply on
the army estimates.

On the vote of £262,216, less by' £2,000 than was origi-
nally proposed, for defraying the expense of the medical
department of the army,
Colonel NORTH called attention to the present ineffi-
cient state of the medical department of the army, and ob-
served that, so far from carrying out the recommendations
of the committee of 1858, in favour of having one surgeon
and two assistant-surgeons to every regiment, there were
no less than 200 medical vacancies in the army. The hon.
and gallant member referred to the evidence of the Com-
mander-in-Chief, Sir Richard Airey, and other experienced
offiers of distinction, to show the necessity of having the
medical staff of the army increased ; but such was the state
of things at present, that, although there were 200 vacan-
cies, medical students could not be induced to enter the
service.

The Marquis of lIAR,TINGTGN admitted that there was
considerable difficulty in obtaining, a proper supply of medi-
cal officers for the army, but he could not allow that that
was owing to the provisions of the warrant to which the
gallant colonel (North) had alluded not having been car-
ried into effect. On the contrary, those provisions had been
very fairly given effect to. Re was afraid that if the defi-
ciency was to be met, it must be through the House of Com-
mons granting increased remuneration to the medical
officers of the army.
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of £783,783, for defraying the charge of the
ssembodied militia,

Colonel DUNNE complained that the expenses thrown
on subaltern officers in the militia deterred gentlemen from
joining that branch of the service.
Colonel NORTH said that the forage allowance to
mounted officers in the militia was very inadequate.
Lord ENFIELD said that it was at present very difficult
to obtain subaltern officers in the militia.

The Marquis of HARTINGTON believed that the allow-
ances made to militia regiments for expenses incurred dur-
ing the period they ware out for training were in general
sufficient.

Tho vote was then agreed to.
The vote of £-17,886 for defraying the charge of the
yeomanry cavalry generally was likevfise agreed to.
On the vote of £39,300 for the permanent duty, training,
and exercising of the yeomanry cavalry.
Mr. LAWSON roso to oppose. From hearing the speeches
of the nr,ble lord the Prime Minister and the noble lord the
Under-Secretary of State for War, he had voted against
calling out the yeomanry cavalry this year. A week after-
wards he read a paragraph in the Times
newspaper, stating
that a deputation of yeomanry cavalry officers had waited
on the noble lord, and the noble lord had said that, since
the last vote in the House of Commons, the Government
had carefully considered the subject. Re, (Mr. Lawson)
only regretted that the Government had not "carefully
...onsidered the subject" before calling upon the house to
vote upon it. (Laughter.) " Within the last few days ad-
vices hed been received from New Zealand--(laughter)--
that were so favourable, that the ci9yernment-would, be able

to have the yeomanry cavalry without any addition to the
amount of the estimates. He had, therefore, great satisfac-
tion in stating that the yeomanry would be ca' fed out this
yei,r, The noble lord also complimented the y anrY on
their efficiency, and said he believed them to a necessary
auxiliary to the rifle volnnteers." (Laughter.) The hen,
member said, in concluding, he considered this an increase
of warlike expenditure in time of peace, and, although the
vote was small, he should oppose it, because the sum was
not required. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of HARTINGTON observed, that since
the estimate was framed news had arrived that the war in
New Zealand would be concluded sooner than was antici-
pated. The necessity that existed before for the reduction
of the sum for the yeomanry no longer existed, and that
was the reason of the course taken by the noble lord at the
head of the Government. (Hear.) News had been received
that day from New Zealand equally, if not more, favourable
in its character. Therefore, the anticipations on which that
vote was added to the estimates had been fully carried out.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAms and Colonel
EDWIRDS, in favour of the yeomanry, the committee
divided. _

--•--- -
For the vote
Against it
Majority for the vote —93
The vote was then agreed to.
The vote of £326,260 for the volunteers, after some dis-
cussion, was agreed to.

The next vote proposed was £19,850 for enrolled pen-
sioners and the army reserve force. After some discussion
it was agreed to.

On the sum of £973,031 being proposed for defraying the
expense of the manufacturing department and materials
for the manufacture of warlike stores,
Lord ELCHO, in remarking upon the large sum for the
manufacture of small arms, said that since 1851 a new
spirit appeared to take possession of the minds of men with
regard to the discovery of the best small arm for the de-
struction of the human species. The result was that, as
concerned the army of this country, it was, with the excep-
tion, perhaps, of the Prussian army, the best armed in the
world. The rifle was now the weapon of the British army,
and every marksman was fully aware of its great supe-
riority over the Brown Bess of former times. He would now
call attention to the broad results arrived at by the Ord-
nance select committee, who had carefully inquired into the
merits of the Whitworth large-bore rifle with service am-
munition, and the Enfield rifle. The conclusion at which
the committee had arrived was, that the ordinary Enfield
was inferior to every large-bore rifle they had tried. The
report of the committee condemned the Enfield rifle as re-
garded accuracy beyond the distance of 600 yards—but the
committee at the same time tried another rile which took
service ammunition, and was remarkably free from fouling,
viz., the Lancaster oval-bore rifle. He understood that
there were 170,000,000 of ball cartridges in store, and
although the report of the Ordnance committee
bearing on this matter had :been issued in No-
vember, 1E62, it had remained a dead letter ever
since in the archives of the War-office. But
in the meantime the manufacture of small arms had not
ceased, for there were sums of money annually voted for the
purpose, and rifles of the condemned description, to the
amount of upwards of £130,000, had been manufactured by
the Government since November, 1862. He was aware
that attention had been drawn to another description of
large-bore rifle, which promised to give better results than
the Lancaster large-bore, and that it was desired to have
another trial of the Enfield. But why the Government
should think it necessary to have any more trials of the
Enfield he was at a loss to conceive. The Whitworth rifle
used an ammunition totally different from the service, so
that if it were a dopted it would necessitate the loss of the
170,000.000 of ball cartridges, and the adoption of new ma-
chinery. He ventured to think that the Government, as
soon as they saw the report of the Ordnance committee,
should have stopped the manufacture of the inferior article
and availed themselves of the Lancaster rifle. There were
great differences of opinion in men's minds about the com-
parative merits of breech-loaders and muzzle-loaders; but
all the old soldiers
.he had conversed with on the subject
expressed a preference for tlie breech-loader. If they sup-
posed that the army of this country were ordered to Den-
mark, everybody would be of opinion that it would be of the
greatest importance they should be armed with the same
weapon as the Prussian army, to whom they would be op-
posed. The Prussian army had for many years been armed
with the breech-loader; and the Emperor of the French was
trying to get the best breech-loader; and therefore he
thought her Majesty's Government should direct immediate
attention to the expediency of adopting breech-loaders.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said the result of the
experiments which the Ordnance select committee had
been conducting was, that they considered the Whitworth
small-bore rifle the best military weapon which had come
before them. At the same time, they did not recommend
a total re-armament of the troops for the present, as that
would necessitate a change in the ammunition; but
8,000 of these arms would be issued, and especially the 60th
Rifles and the Rifle Brigade—regiments quartered in all
parts of the work—would be armed with them. As for the
Lancaster rifle, it was only superior to the Enfield at dis-
tances exceeding 500 yards. And though upon the whole
the committee were bound to testify that the Lancaster was
the superior weapon, it was the deity of Lord De Grey to
see if that superiority was likely to be maintained, and to
judge if the competition which had already taken place was
to be final. It was much better to make the trials as full
and complete as possible. He did not allow that Mr.
Lancaster had been badly treated, and in proof of that ha
might say that Mr Lancaster had signed a receipt in full
for all his claims, and that the War Department had deter-
mined not to oppose the renewal of his patent. His own
impression was that ultimately both Mr Whitworth's small
bore and large bore would be adopted. As to breech loaders,
it would never do, in the face of the doubts which existed
as to the value of the principle, suddenly to adopt breech
loader.: for the general use of the army.

Mr. VIVIAN supported the adoption of breech loaders,
and condemned the slew degrees with which the experi-
ments wore being conducted. The large bora Whitworth
was just twice as accurate as the Lancaster rifle, which
Lord Elcho blamed the Goverment for not having adopted.
There was another point to which military men attached
great importance, and that was the use of hardened projec-
tiles. Now these could not be used with the Lancaster rifle,
while the Whitworth was admirably adapted for fir ing them.
lie did not think the Government was fairly censurable for
the course they had taken.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought that both the present
and past Governments were to blame for expending large
sums of money before they had made up their minds
which was the best weapon. He also complained of the
increase of the charge of the establishments included in
this vote, and said he would move a reduction of £6,000
upon the vote, being the difference between the sum asked
for in the present year and that expended on the same de-
partments four years ago. He thought that Guvernment
manufacture was carried too far, and that many things
were made in the national establishments which might be
more economically obtained by contract. He wished to
know what had become of the enormous sum of money
which had been expended on guns during the last few years,
and especially on Armstrong guns. From 1858 to 1863 two
millions and a half (besides what had been expended on
ammunition) had been expended on these guns. £183,000
had been laid out on 110 .pounders before it was ascertained
whether that class of guns would answer. As a matter of
fact, they turned out ill. Was, then, this L 183,000 lost ?
The hon. barenet concluded by moving the reduction of the
vote by £6,000.

Captain JERVIS said that as improvements went on it
became requisite to keep pace with them, and this neces-
sarily entailed considerable expense. The noble lord (Lord
Elcho) had looked at the question of the small arms more
with regard to target firing than with reference to use in
the field. The great advantage of the Lancaster rifle was
that it did not require the constant cleaning which was ne-
cessary for the Enfield and Whitworth rifles.
Mr. COBDEN thought that the hon. baronet the mem-
ber for Evesham had put his finger on a blot when he
traced the growth of our expenditure of late years to
the increase in our establishments. In 1841 we paid
£600,000 for wages in our dockards and for establish-
ment charges, This year we paid £1,300,000, besides
£450,000 for vessels built by contract. In the army
estimates an item for wages and superintendence was
almost unknown in 1841 ; this year it amounted to
£520,000. The House might depend upon it that when so
large an amount was paid on wages the Government was
incurring an immense amount of waste, because when-
ever they paid as a Government they would pay an
immensely higher price than they would in purchasing
from a private establishment. Another most serious view
of the question was :that whatever the heads of depart-
ments came for in that House they were sure to obtain.
(Hear, hear.) Since he came into the House twenty-three
years ago they had voted upwards of £500,000,000 under
the heads of army, navy, and ordnance, and he had never
known an item reduced or even altered in that House.
(Hear. hear.) Some people might say that the discussions
in that House must have an effect, inasmuch as there
w.as publicity attending them; but the discussions seemed
to have no effect whatever on the heads of departments,
who know that all they asked for would be granted, and
were consequently encouraged in making their demands.
There was no representative body in the world where there
was note right of supervision, except in the English House
of Parliament. They had all read of a most important
vote in Paris, which was subjected to the revision under
tike Corps Legislatil, and was considerably reduced. In
Amer ricer supervision was exercised ; but in the English
House of Commons he never knew one item revised.
With r.afercnce to the waste he ventured to say that
much cams under the heads of stores and manufacturing
services. Orlesr, hear.) 'They had sometimes heard
attempts made to show that the Government manufac-
turing establisher. eats could be carried on as cheaply as
private establishme.nte. Now he had Mende on his left
and right who were largely engaged in business; they
had taken some pains in the investigation of the subject;
and he never heard one man in business who would not
have agreed that the Government wasted one. half in all
they manufactured for themselves. This was not merely
in the nature of the waste from the articles made, but arose
from the Government being their own customers, and
from having a large establishment where they were
constantly obliged to make things, in order to