The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-21 00:00:00

SUN,

lieve the Noble Lord seriously thought Government had
any mistrust of the loyalty of Ireland, when he must
know that the army was largely recruited with Irish-
men—(Hear)—who had ever been conspicuous fur their
gallantry and loyalty.—(Hear,) As for the plan of
raising the militia by ballot, he could only say the mi-
litia had never beau raised by ballot iu Ireland. If the
Militia Act were repealed, the difference which existed
now in raising militia in England and Ireland would still
be made the wile. If the House permitted the Bill to
he introduced, he thought all the objects of the Noble
Lord would be obtained, and he believed it would place
the defences of the country on a proper footing. He
believed there was a necessity that the country should
be further protected, and Government therefore asked
the House to consent to the further progress of the Bill.
Mr. DEEDES did not think the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. M. Gibson) would advance the content and
happiness of the labouring classes by not having a suffi-
cient force at hand in case of invasion.—(Hear.) He
had listened throughout the debate to all that had fallen
from Members of her Majesty's Government and Hon.
Members on both sides of the House. He did not intend
to effer opposition to the Government measure; but Hon.
Members must judge of the measure introduced by look-
ing at the language used by those who introduced the
measure. The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) did not
appear to speak out distinctly respecting the provisions
he wished to carry out. The Noble Lord dwelt on the
training the men were to receive. If the force was
wanted for any emergency, the sooner that force was
put in an efficient state the better, and the less expensive
it would be for the country. The Noble Lord said he
thought fourteen or twenty•cight days in each year, and
two hours or three hours and a halt per day, would suf-
fice. He looked at the broad, general question, not the
smell niceties of it. If it was necessary to put the
country i❑ a defensive state—he did not wish to go
further than that—it was madness to sit still under real
danger. He had no wish to see a foreign general in his
house, unless by his invitation and to partake of his hos-
pitality. He could not help thinking the Bill as it stood
would not give such an efficient force as was required.
All he wanted was a proper force for an emergency,
and as he believed the amendment of the Noble Lord the
Member for Tiverton would effect that object he sihould
give it his support.
Mr. HUME said when the majority of the House
bad so clearly demonstrated its wishes that the. Bill
should be brought in to carry out the recommendations
of the Committee, he never recollected that any oppo-
sition, as at present, had been raised to that course. He
objected to the amendment, and he also objected. to the
B►ll as unnect ss,ry. If Government wished fur an in-
crease of military defences. it was proper to lay a plan
before the House. The propositio❑ of the Noble Lord
(Lord Palmerston) was certainly very unusual, and one
winch he could not consent to. He should therefore
vote with her Majesty's Ministers. He should do this,
but without admitting the necessity of the Bill; for the
Noble Lord who introduced the Bill had not pointed out
any danger, nor showed any reason for introducing the
Bill. He denied that he wished to leave the country
defenceless. He wished the country to be properly de-
fended. We had spent for years 16,000,0001. on army and
navy. But we were told, with 200,000 regular army, we
were without sufficient defence. We had iilso 230
ships, manned by 39,000 seamen. Taking oar navy
!,or sailors, and our military force, we had 239,000 men

in pay and under arms. This was exclusive of troops
in the colonies and in India. We had at pr. )sent a
greater amount of armed force in these kingdonsa than
ever was the case be:ore, end he therefore did complain
of Hon Gentlemen getting up and stating we were with-
out defence. he considered it was unwise to express an
opinion that we feared an invasion. It was throwing out
a challenge to a country with which we ought to be at
war—(Loud laughter)—he meant ought not to be at war.
He considered it was a monstrous proposition to s:sy we
wanted more defence, when we were already so amply
provided with all kinds and means of defence_ The
country was in a better state of defence now than :it had
ever been, and he saw ao necessity for any eaten:ordi-
nary preparation, unless indeed the Noble Lord had en-
tered into a private negotiation to support some ,of the
continental governments. He should, however, v etc in
favour of the Government on this occasion for the intro-
dnction of their Bill.
Mr. S. HERBERT wished merely to state that the
Right Hon. Member the Home Secretary had misun-
derstood what had fallen from him toe other night on
this subject. He had not argued for a permanent. em-
bodying of the militia, but had merely suggested :that as
they were about to deal with the militia laws they
should deal with them as a whole. The Noble Lord
had stated that ho was willing to accept the ameneemeut,
but' the moment it was proposed the Noble Lord repu-
diated it, and said that its proposers must take t.ho re-
sponsibility of the Bill.—(No, no.) He apprehendieci the
Noble Lord was arguing on a proposal of which the
Hottse was ignorant, but which had been commeasicated
privately to him by the Noble Lord the Member for
Tiverton. The House was not in a similar position, and
had to argue merely from what the Noble Lord had
proposed. All that the Noble Lord the Member fur
Tiverton proposed was, to omit the word " locals" In
dealing with such a question, the House ought ;uot to
take that which was exceptional. In his argument the
other night he had rested it on the convenience of train-
ing, as he thought great advantage would arise :in the
event, or in anticipation of war, iu being able to move
the militia from county to county without embodying
them. He certainly was surprised that the Noble Lord
should not accept the atnendment, omit the word " local"
and admit the word " consolidate."
Lord J. RUS-ALL wished to explain, as the Right
Hon. Gentleinsu had misunderstood him. What he bad
stated was that the Government had a Bill ready on the
subject, and that if the principle of it were adopted it
would be necessary to bring in another Bill after wards
respecting the general militia. With regard to the
local militiia he had stated that they had a measure
ready, whereas the other Bill had never been considered.
The consideration yet might require a week, perhaps a
month, nail therefore he asked leave to withdraw the
present measure, reserving to himself the right to in-
troduce the other Bill.

Colonel THOMPSON, with respect to the apprehen-
sion of danger, would use the words they were all fami-
liar with 1n the story of The Babes in the Wood,—
" Kill him again, Welter, for such a villain cannot be too
dead."—(A laugh.) He could not better explain the
reason why he would vote with the Noble Lord (Pal-
merston). He recollected the doleful looks that were
directed in 1804 towards the Channel for the approach
of the flotilla that did not come. They had great con-
fidence in the militia, then, and they all knew that the re-
gular militia was a highly respectable force; but as to the
local militia, without speaking slightingly of anybody,
they did not know where it was.—(A laugh.) There
were old militia laws that would do very well for their
purpose, with such touches as the lapse of time might
require; but he wished them to bear in mind that the
local militia was of little value as an embryo force.—
(Hear, hear.) Something had been said of Frenchmen
refusing to join invasion. There was not a Frenchman
that dared to refuse, and, what was more there were
very few Frenchmen that would.—(Hear, hear.) Let
them, then, make such preparation as they could, always
hoping that, as in the old war with France, the enemy
they were prepared to repel would disappoint
them by
nut coming.—(Bear hear.)
Mr. MAULE could not allow the House to go to a
division without endeavouring to show the House and
the country the difference between the two principles
now placed before them. The object which the Govern-
ment had in view was to introduce a Bill for amen ding
the law with reference to the local militia, which would
have the effect of. providing for this country at the
cheapest rate, and in a manner less burdensome to the
people, a force which would be most speedily at the
disposal of the Government to protect these shores on
occasions of actual or threatened invasion. For
the last four or five years this was a principle to
which the attention of the Government had been
given—to establish a force similar in constitution to the
local militia of former days, in which a large population
should be trained to the use of arms at a moderate dis-
tance from their residences—and that there should be
in every part of this country a respectable force for the
defence of any locality. It might bo all very well to
disparage the local militia. If they wished to have
another name for it, lot them call it an army of reserve,
if they pleased ; but to all intents and purposes it was
a branch of the service composed of men in their own
localities, and therefore interfered the least with their
employments. But the regular militia was a totally dif-
ferent thing, and he was as distinctly opposed to having
a regular militia in the time of peace as he would be to
Gentlemen, perhaps,
o:. d
any proposition to add 50,000 men to the standing army.
Ho were not aware of the com-
pulsory powers given by the regular Militia Act. That
Act compelled the men selected by ballot to serve either
Personally or by substitute ; they were liable to be em-
partfamilies . any
a n d
of
,tahiboolututonibe removed from their to
cure sin menten;Kingdom ; so that all their avocations
every precaution were
years. Fsirppoesniie might be entirely interrupted for seven
teh. eeairr t gle
moved from their taken to se-
43ight
be married,
encumbrance, yet the very next
lonsoaaried, and if embodied and re-
their Wives ehareeableto the parish. He would therefore
ities many of them might leave
parishes to be chargeablevhether they would like the
ofth the expense of maintain-
ask the country gentlemen
maintain-
the the wives and families
servo as
marched from
should only b:saan embodied militia?
h a force
had recourse recourse to during
as
ahwato wasl wanted
their own localities to
Such a proceeding
the urgent necessities of. war,
during peace was simply suE
ready amount of protection. With respect
dtosecure a
res
His Noblea b
dFtrhi Friend d
ware said all
t)
t England
el a-
sup_
Substi-
tutes in the regular militia, where would a person
purchased, after appearing .at drill for his first twenty_eight
dwaays, en,
not
to
composednest year
of?
cheats,
pose that the 12E11 who were substitutes would
_would not be
honest enough to re-appear to fulfil..t_li
_bargain. lie
(Mr. F. Maul() did not fancy that. all England was come
per-
sons purchased to serve as substitutes were very great
posed of cheats, but he had this opinion, that the
cheats, and iu composing a militia in time of_ peace of
substitutes they would be training to arms the lowest
1 barracks, and subject to
scum
timote' tehtewpaorp,
aubladtitounk.enTinotebe sure, if embodied in
the
constant duty under all the restraints of the Mutiny
Act, these men might, be made as good soldiers as
any, probably; but if the took
class of persons who
took substitutes in time
of peace, they would et
ought not to be trusted with the use of arms, and
g
whose services could not bo obtained when they were
wanted. That was a strong reason for not having re-
course to the regular militia in time of peace. What be
wanted to see established was a force which should be
trained for so many days in each year, and by degrees
becoming large and extensive in its numbers, and which,
mightlike
be yeomanrymade
quite oafs
effectual this
for
awiththel l pberarepat
erkieif trifling
gn
asgo out of
raw levies that could be adopted. On
war on the continent or in any other part of the world,
rendering it necessary to increase the military
this country, this force would form a reserveh. power of
from which
the army or regular militia might be legitimately aug-

mental whenever it should bo found necessary to esta-
blish the latter. In the course of the last war there was
a system of fines by which the men in the local militia
especially were compelled to observe their engagements;
it was a system of fines, which were imposed on the
several parishes to which any defaulters belonged, so
that the parishes were made responsible for the
appearance of the men. With regard to the
non-extension of the operation of the Local
Militia Act to Ireland, he wished to observe
that it never had been extended to Ireland ;
and with regard to the regular militia, such
were the objections to the system of ballot in reference to
Ireland, that the militia in that country were all raised
by heat of drum. In like manner, if the present propo-
sition of the Government should be agreed to, so far
from their being any doubt as to the loyalty of the
people of Ireland, there would be no hesitation in
adopting the same system as had heretofore been
adopted in arming the population of that country for the
protection of its shores, namely, the system of volun-
teer corps.—(Divide, divide.)
Mr. CHARTERIS intended to vote with the Go-
vernment, as he did not think he would be justified,
after all he had heard, in voting to prevent them bring-
ing in the Bill which they thought necessary. If, whoa
the Bill should be on the table, it should seem not
likely
InP"ure, or endeavour to improve is.—(Divide, divide.)
to be effective, the House might then reject the
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For Lord Palmerston's amendment 136
Against it ... ••• ••• ••• 125
Majority against Government —ll
Cheers followed the announcement of the numbers.

Lt,rd J. RUSSELL then rose and said—l consider

:hat the vote to which the House has just come is

tantamount to a refusal, on the part of the majority, to
allow the Government to bring in the Bill which they
have prepared. As this is a matter relating to the
internal defence of the country, and therefore of the
utmost importance, of course I cannot be responsible
for a different Bill, containing other clauses and other
provisions, which I consider injurious. Therefore I
relieve myself from any responsibility with respect to
that measure, and any other Member may be named
by the House to bring in the Bill.
Lord PALMERSTON (who was cheered on his
rising) said—l cannot help expressing my extreme sur-
prise—(Cheers)—at such an abdication by the Govern.
meat of their proper functions in this llouse.—(Cheers.)
I presume that it was not without full deliberation
that the Government felt it their duty to introduce a
measure for the better defence of the realm.—(Hear,
hear.) The only difference of opinion between the
majority of the House and the Government
has been whether the measure should bo founded
on the Act of 42 George III„ or the Act
58 George lll,—whether upon the system of the
regular militia or of the local militia. The Noble Lord
has stated this evening that his measure was so nearly
the same as the arrangements of the regular militia that
it appears to me, and it has appeared to the majority of

this House, not consistent, I may say, with common
sense, to retain the word " local" in the measure. The
Noble Lord admitted substitutes, though the House had
heard an eloquent explanation of the objections to that
system.—(Hear, and laughter.) Ho stated that his plan
would admit of their being called out in the case of war
like the regular militia. It I did not mistake they would
serve in every part of the United Kingdom; and the only
difference was the time for which they were to remain
embodied in case of war. But, I would put it to the
Government whether that is a reason why they should
shrink from the performance of their duty—(Hear, hear)
—and throw up, on account of a temporary and inciden-
tal failure of principle, a measure which they ought not
to have proposed unless they thought it was really essen-
tial to the welfare of the country?—(Cheers.)
The SPEAKER—I should remind the House that at
present there is no question before it.—(Hear.)

Lord J. RUSSELL—After what the Noble Lord has
said, I really think it is incumbent on me to say a few
words in explanation. The Noble Lord has said that
the measure which I explained on a former occasion and
this evening, is so nearly similar to a plan for restoring
and establishing the militia, that ho wonders I should
throw up this measure. If that were the case, I own I
should think it was an unprecedented course, because
there was a certain difference which was only upon
some point with regard to the Bill, that therefore the
majority of this House was to alter the words of the
title of the Bill, and thereby to imply a great change in
it.—(Hear, hear.) lam perfectly sure that if I were to
bring this Bill in on the principle on which the Govern-
ment had decided when the Bill was printed, I should
be told that that was not the Bill that the Noble Lord
had intended, and that other provisions must be intro-
duced. I say is this a position for the; Government to
hold?—(Cheers.) I think I made great admissions
when I said that, with regard to ell the details of the
Bill when it was before the House, I should be ready
not only to listen to any amendments, but even to sub-
mit it to a Select Committee for further consideration.
But, if we are stopped at the very threshold—(Hear,
hear)—if we are told at the very commencement—(Hear)

—that the House have no confidence in our measure—
(Hear, hear)—it is impossible for us to go on with that
measure.—(Hear, hear.) I hear a cheer to that obser-
vation, implying very clearly that the Noble Lord is
wrong in what he said—(Hear, hear)—and that it was
intended by this vote, and by putting the Government in
a minority at a time of very serious import, and with
regard to a very serious question, to show that the ma-
jority of the House had not confidence in our adminis-
tratioe.—(Hear, hear.) I shall now, Sir, conclude with
moving that Mr. Bernal and Lord Viscount Palmerston
do bring in this Bill.—(Cheers and great laughter.)
[The House now presented a scene of great excite-
ment and confusion, the Members forming themselves
into groups, and discussing with great vivacity the new
position of affairs. In the midst of this excitement—]
Sir BENJAMIN HALL rose and said—Sir, I cor-
dially voted in favour of the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government, because I thought that the course pursued
by the Noble Lord (Palmerston) who sits below me is un-
called for and unprecedented. I think it would have
been more convenient, and under all the circumstances
more courteous, to have allowed my Noble Friend to in-
troduce his Bill. But having supported the Noble Lord
on this occasion, I cannot go along with him any further.
I gave my vote in favour of the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government, and I intended also to have given
my vote in the future stages of the Bill—if the ma-
jority had allowed it to be introduced—in conjunc-
tion with the Honourable Member for Montrose.
But I am not at all satisfied with the decision
to which the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government has now come, and I do not think that he
ought to call upon the Noble Lord to bring in the Bill.
—(Cheers.) He has stated to the House that we re-
quire a militia. He, as the head of the Government, has
stated to the House that this country requires farther
defensive measures. Sir, Ido not agree in that. But
if ho has stated to the House that we do require these
further defences, then he ought either to give up the
situation he holds in her Majesty's Councils—(Loud
cheers)—or he ought to introduce his Bill. For my
part I hold that my Noble Friend ought at once to give
up the office which he holds.—(Cheers.) Tho Hon. and
Gallant Colonel the Member for Bradford said, I re-
member, on a former occasion, I have a great horror of
a foreign force landing in this country, but I have a still
greater horror of a Conservative Government being in
power.—(Laughter from the Conservatives.) Sir, I
have no such horror. I should like to see them try
their hands at the Government—(Cheers)—and there-
fore I call on the Noble Lord atonce not only to abandon
the Bill, but to declare that he would no longer preside
over the councils of the nation.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL at once stood up and said
—Sir, I rise to say that I think I made my meaning
sufficiently clear—(Loud Ministerial cheers)—when
said I took it for granted, as the result of the vote of
the House, that the Ministry had no longer the confi-
dence of the House, and that such being the case, I could
no longer continue—(Loud Ministerial cheers prevented
the conclusion of the sentence from being heard, but it
was evident the Noble Lord meant to say that he could
no longer continue to be the responsible adviser of the
Crown.) You, Sir, having said that there was no mo-
tion before the House, I concluded by moving that the
Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, be called on to
bring in a Bill; but, of course, I did not mean to impose
gives toeehrminog'iione
upon him that responsibility.—(Hear. hear.)
a of
filhil to enable The great body of the Members in the House then
Ieft,DIFFERENTIAL
excited by the crisis which occurred.
t DUTIES ON FOREIGN SHIPS.
L A B OhUe
reH
MajestyE R E
tleave w
abolish,os
otherwise than by o
treaty, on condition of reciprocity,
differential duties
ESTABLISHED
n"
ships.
Mr.UCH IN THE COLONIES.
On the motion of
giveeto introduce a Bill GLADSTONE, leave -.was
laity in the colonies, in co
to relieve bishops, clergy, and
doubts
laity
with the Church of
England, from legal
management of their church affairusabilities affecting the.
CHARITABLE
STS.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL in
to bring in a Bill for facilitating and bettermoving for leave
due administration of the charitable trusts
securing the
and Wales, said he intended to go some in England
into the etails of this Bill, but after le"' at length
discussion which had just taken place, and the
which followed, he did not think that he shoe result
be
justified in entering upon any statement of its provisions.
At the same time, he might say that the Bill was etehee
same as that which had been passed by the other branch
of the Legislature last session. It was a Bill of con-
siderable importance, and whoever might be responsible
for its conduct in that House it should have his cordial
support—Oleo'', hear.)