The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-02 00:00:00

THE

existing law of the land, and as to whom the British asylum to refugees fleeing from the
teoffteicettsenodf
tphoeliirticraiglhctonto-
Government might take steps. But it was not likeotheorf
• subsequent communications from the Governmentseenfe \a'ffuoLrid'ntlB;:tnidiospviotuallidryn. ot
.13)it e rtelaidayt was not the whole case.
den,- They were not satisfied with merely seeking an asylum
Russia, Austrie, and Prussia, or the Germanic
tofaEndngtolarddistausrba Lmheeatnrsan°-f
tion-an application to do more than the law would' enablerightand
here,a d r p
. dr That
werelya s thethe
points strong
which point
.but tolcosteet used the
,t,shtemptyretaegcatiiinsi
to the French Government to explain the nature and justintent qtauki,elnitivn):otfh,f,isierefigorneigconupnotwrieerss.
of that communication. Now, Sir, when these
tions were made to me I stated that the, represents-FrenchGo- our law did not meet as regarded foreigners. But if any
vernment had
at different times possessed powers foreigner or Englishman were to be, guilty of similar 'sets
granted by Alien Acts, but that these powers never against England, he would be guilty of treason oi• sedition,
went to the object to which they wished the action of so that they were, in fact, carrying out sedition and treason
the British Government to be directed-(Hear, hear)- against their own Governments. T• is was an • anomaly of
that England cook care of her own tranquillity, and
Bever which toreien Governments had a right to complain. He
pretended to look after that of other countries-(Hear, hear) (SirJ. Walsh) was net prepared to enact laws to meet this
-that they would look after their own interest, and that the case, but he was of opinion that there was a stronger prima
power given by former Alien Acts wouldi he
that the facie case on the part of foreign powers than Gentlemen .. -
op-
Government was enabled to seed out of the country any posite were ready to admire There was a gross abuse of the
foreigners whose presence in the cow try was dangerous to hospitality of this country on the part of refugees, and their
this country, and detrimental to its internal tranquillity- sense of propriety ought to induce them to abstain from acts
(Hear, hear)-and that it was in vain for them to ask us to which involved the chance of perilling friendly relations
do that which not only the present law did not enable us to between their own countries and that which had given them
do, but to disenable us to do that fur which no further Act shelter. He had no sympathy with most of those refugees
could be asked from Parliament,
Parliament would who had done much by their acts to put an end to Constitu
consult to give.- (Hear. ) But, took the liberty of tional monarc all ee hy aver Europe, and if this country afforded
and no
no
pa
I
stating, further, that I thought there was great exaggeration them an asylutheitn'tras not necessaryp also to afford them its
• of the dangers which could arise to any foreign country from sympathy
the presence here of any foreign refugees. Sir, there is Mr. V. SMITH concurred with the Right Hon. Gentleman
• nothing, it seems to roe, upon which Walpole), opinion goes so far (Mr. Wal ile ' , and with the Noble Lord (Palmerston),
beyond fact as in the idea that refugees can effect any con- that if an angry) discussion on this subject had been brought
siderable mischief in the country from which they have to a satisfactory close, it was unwise to revive it.-(Hear,
fled. Why, how are they to do it- By exciting discontent hear.) The motion of the lion. Member for Pontefract,
through letters or other incentives to insurrection. The however, was intended to elicit a little information from the
effect of a cause depends not only on the cause itself, but Government, and he (Mr. V. Smith) desired to extract a
very much on the condition of the thing on which that little more. What he wanted to know was, whether
cause is to operate. Sir, a slight spark may blow up a British subjects had been subjected to any additional incon-
p weer magazine; while a blazing torch will burn out venience in consequence of non-compliance on the part of
haormless on a turnpike-road.-(Cheers and laughter.) If our Government with the demands made upon them?
a country be in a state of internal or suppressed discontent, With regard to the Austrian correspondence, he must say be
alight indications may augment it, and produce an explo- thought it rather an unusual prectice to compliment a new
sion t but if the country be well governed, and if the people Government upon its accession to office. Prince Schwer zen-
be satisfied and contented, little proclamations and commu- berg. however, seemed to think otherwise; and he (Mr.
. nications which may be received from refugees will be as V. Smith) supposed that " Dear Derby," and nut "Ce
harmless as waste paper.-(Hear, hear.) I endeavoured cher Aberdeen," would henceforward be the formal ex-
with great deference to impress that idea on foreign Govern- .pression of that statesman when addressing dispatches to this
ments, who then represented that perhaps these refugees country.-( A laugh. )
might send money ! Why, good heavens, Sir!-the money Mr. B. COCHRANE said that it appeared that the Aus-
which these unhappy refugees have, who are living in trian Government had only placed British travellers under
leedesings in back alleys, many of them even of the lowest the same regulations as these of other countries. He corn-
class, and can mousy ray for their subsistence-(Hear, hear) plained of the tone and language adopted by several Hon.
-is there any danger likely to aoee to foreign Governments Members in the present debate, and contended that such a
from .money sent by such persons?-=( Hear, hear, eea a manner of discussing foreign affairs was calculated to do.
laugh.) Then, Sir, I was told, " See, here are notes issued serious lb j ury to our relations with foreign powers. He.con- ,
by Mazzini, for 50 francs each, in return for money depo- tended that the dispatch of the Austrian Minister, which
sited, and to be repaid when an Italian Unitive Republic was said to contain a "menace," was written just after a
shall be established."-(Laughter.) Why, Sir, I did not speech d -livered by M. Mazzini, in which be spoke " of
think that danger from this source was very imminent.- establishing an organisation, to spread through England the
(Hear, hear.) Then, again, it was said that a banker had facts relating to the struggles and sufferings of Italy, and so
received an application from some of those parties to open an that she might receive a moral assistance In those struggles."
account with him. But, Sir, up to that time not a farthing Austria had cause to be alarmed, if she supposed such an
had been paid to that account. -. (Laughter.) Then it was organisation was on foot. He thought that the conduct of
said that if money could not be sent arms might go. And no ' Englishmen to General Haynau, conduct which.was atonce
doubt one did hear of some 200 muskets destined for these cowardly and inhospitable, was quite parallel with the con
purposes. But how are the refugees to get arms (in any duct of the Austrian troops in. Tuscany.-( Hear, hear.) .He
- formidable quantity) unless they can get money ?-(Hear.) was astonished at this motion proceeding from his.. Hon. •
• And Ido not think that notes payable on such an eventuality Friend, who had always been received most hospitably at the
• as I have described are likely to send arms in quantities at Courts which he now took upon himself to attack.
all considerable into foreign countries.-(Hear, hear, and a Sir H. VERNieY was understood to say that the whole
laugh.) Besides, the arms are articles which it is ex- English nation ought to be grateful to the Noble Lord, the
tremely difficult to smuggle; and any country is, of course, Member for Tiverton, mainly in consequence of whose con-
' bound to look after its own interests, and to give orders to duct it was that the cases mentioned that evening, of in-
prevent the arms from being imported.--( Hear, hear.) juries aid insults to British subjects abroad, were exceptions
'• Well, then, if their letters will not produce revolution ; if and not the rule. The Noble Lord was competent above all
their money is not forthcoming; and if their arms are next men to give advice on such a subject as this; and he (Sir
to nothing, it is said they may send men. But the moment H. Verney) hoped that the Hon. Member for Pontefract
'• any foreigner begins to enrol men in this country for the would act upon the suggestion which had been offered him.
purpose of military occupations in another, we have a law to -(Hear, hear.)
prevent those practices.--(Hear.) They cannot be concealed; Mr. HENLEY, after some preliminary observations, said
• you are enabled by the law (a law which no doubt the Go- he believed that any Government existing in this country
vernment would execute) to put down such proceedings must always act upon the principle that British subjects, in
• against a friendly power.-( Hear, bear.) And, Sir, I felt it any part of the world, must be carefully protected. The
. my duty to point out to those foreign Governments that al- Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) had referred, in humourous
,though it was not entirely unnatural, considering the dif- terms, to the Austrian dispatch, in which complimentary
ferent organization of continental countries from ours, that language was used in respect to Lord Derby's Government;
they shiand feel these apprehensions, that, besides our not but that dispatch must be reed in reference to the declare-
being able. to relieve them., there was not so much toundetion tion of the present Government as no their foreign policy,
• for them as , they appeared to imagine; and that, however, and not in reference to the pre.erence ot the Austrian Go-
there had been granted (as was stated ia 1848) a consider- vernment of any one set of gentlemen over any other set
able number of passports by the British consuls or diplomatic of Gentlemen sitting as Ministers -(Hear.) As regarded
agents to persons not British subjects, I thought it was right the dispatch up, n ..hick the Hun. Member for Pontefract
to do so. It was done in a time of great commotion in had laid so much stress, as c,mveying a menace, he (Mr.
Euri pe; and the passports were given to persons ef all states Henley) considered that it applied nut to British eubjncts.
-to Royalists of France, Republicans at,Rome, and Hunga- proper but to persons travelling abroad with English pass-
,. rians in the east of Europe; to every man, in fact, who was purts and, so tar as he knew, tie believed that no iucoo-
flying from imminent danger, and wishing to withdraw him- venience had arisen to any one British subject in cense-
, self from that country in which his presence might create had
of the intimation ut the Austrian Government. lie
• disturbance-( Hear, hear)-and they were assisted by the only, in conclusion, to say that the best way of dealing
British Government, not only as an act of great charity to with the motion, would be as suggested by the Noble Lord,
the individuals themselves, but as contributing much to the the Memoer fur Tiverton; and he therefore begged to move
tranquillity of the countries in which it was done. (Hear, tue previous question.
hear.)• As to Rome, for instance, a case much commented Mr. SI. MILNES replied, consenting to obey the direc-
'upon, especially by continental governments, the British tion of the Noble Lord, and to comply with what appeared
consul there, and the French c. nsul gave passports which to be the general wish of the House. in reply to tee re-
enabled two thousand men to quit Rome, who, if they had marks ot the Hon. Member for Bridport (Sir. B. Cochrane),
remained there, must either have been a source of great he:had to observe that the Huh. Member was somewhat
disturbance, or must have been supported by the charity of in error as to the hospitality which he (Mr. M. Milues)
the city, and the authorities of Rome not only desired that it had received from foreign courts, tor on his last visit to the,.
should be done, but urged the consuls to assist them in g-t- continent he had been stopped and prevented entering
Ling rid of these persons, although it was afterwards the Austriau dominions. That circumstance had, of course,
made a frequent subject of reproach, especially to the consul however, nothing to do with his political. conduct on this
of this country. It was an act done not upon his own respon- occasion.
_sibility, but on the desire of the authorities; it was perfectly The previous question was then put and agreed te,
justifiable, and I felt it my duty to approve of it.-(Cheers HARWICH. . .t. d....
e
from the Liberals.) At the same time, it is true that the Sir D. L. EVANS, pursuant .o notice, moved for leave to
Austrian Government might think that some of the pass- introduce A Bill, with a view to the appointment of 'a Cdrike
ports might get into other hands, or that some persons mission to inquire into the existence of bribery in the bo-
to whom they were given might seek to return under rough of Harwich. The Bill would be word for word, with
•• cover of them. I was not disposed to find fault with thecuange of names, with the Bill passed last session in refer-
., Austrian Government for establishing, with regard to
passports, this general regulation, that foreigners wish-
- to show, was even a more flagitious case
passports granted by the authorities of their own aence to-St. Albans. The cede of Harwich, htehawhasthaptreopta. prepared
rag to enter into the Austrian dominions should Albans, and there was this difference that •pieiti existed in
have'
. countries, countersigned by some representative of the this case which had nudtzinetsetdraitniotghtehSet.prelacietiacues
the Bill was passed, nehase bribery.w tien
Austrian Government. - (Hear, hear.) I think that ever
Government is entitled to make such regulations as to the was occul ied by any of the other suspected boroughs.
3' Harwich, indeed, was even in a oUeiti position than
admission of foreigners as it may think consistent with its When he had last brought this euoject beiore the House,
own security, if those regulations are liberally enforced which was imtneoiately upon the accession ot the present
twtthout vexatious severity; and I think that other coun- Government to office, the lion. Siemer for the lini-
nes are bound to acquiesce in them.-(Hear.) There was versify of Oxford (Sir R. Inglis) had charged him
an attempt made indeed to compel the British Government and his f tends with a mere factious desire to annoy
to establish in regard to our passports those picturesque de- and impede the new Ministry. It was sufficient to say,
ecriptions which some of the foreign passports contain-(A
laugh).--.a •delineation of the features or figure which the • iu reply to the charge, that he had moved in the mat-
-111..
• dividual who bears a passport may boast of-(Laughter)-
bu I ter last- year, avid had then sought what he was seeking
now. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Judge
t declined to follow that example, and said that, Advocate had ii:et called attention to Harwich ; and upon
. ,although it was imagined that we were fond of sitting for our the motion of that Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman for a
portraits it was to painters, and not to passport-drawers; and
so, Sir, I did not comply with the wishes of foreign govern- Cmoomottneixttteeendhieng(st'ihreDinegLoi.r.)E. anot aamliettihde-
111.wonts in this respect. But, Sir, it appears from the papers elections for Members for Harwich to the present Perlis-
time a ntsh)ehcaidr cluing gs
teasut eccle s
.. inch have been laid before the House that there was at one merit If; therefore, there was .ny imputation in this busi-
. time a determined intention, on the part especially of the
Austrian '
Government, to retaliate on British travellers with •b bl •• consequence of his
undue
. severity in regard to passports of admission into
Learned Gentleman who, pro a yin
ness, *it applied not' to him, but to the Right Hun. and
onerous official Austrian territories-to retaliate on the British Govern- to Harwich corruption, the evidence was
went for not doing that which foreign Governments must laugh.). regardlnnlike
i duties, no longer took an interest in it.-(A
Wiese's hero, he euffered from an
know it cannot do by law, and never could get a law to so copious, that, .
enable it to do.-(Hear, bear.) Now, Sir, I think that was " embarras des ric s .
In 1d42 occurred the " compro-
farther back than ten years.
he •ses." He would,
a perfectly proper thing for mention in this House.-' Hear, however, not go
beer miss, which led
• ) I think my Hon. Friend was right in calling the se- ed Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roe-
rious attention of Parliament to a menace which I think it ot the lion. and Learn
to the celebrated ' Compromise Committee"
Was so -unbecoming a foreign Government to make, and as and again, in
in 1851 there was an election and a petition , unfitting for the British Government to receive. Sir, upon
buck). In 1848 there was an election and a
.petition. Early
this subject, there are parts of these papers, especially the from 1831 to 1811 by 411
conclusion, on which I would make a few remarks. 1 am The population had decreaas‘yel
Mayt 1851, there was another election and another petition.
the number •of the voters had
alluding to that amicable and Arcadian dialogue- (Laughter ) persons; but, strange to
-which has parsed, it appears, between the Austrian Go- had happened to no other borough.
vernment and the present Ministry since their accession to within ten, years, which had
inereased. This borough had been convicted of bribery twice
Mr. Attwood, then a Mem-
. ofilce.-(" Hear, hear," and laughter from the Liberals.) Ire the Committee of I
Sir, it is delightful and worthy of Virgil to see the beautiful ber of the House,
andsaid he should want 2,00td.
Mr. Curran came to him,
• • compliments and amiable feelings interchanged between
thethe compro-
was examined,- and he stated that
two parties.- (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Sir, I must say I • could mice. "I thought it an extra • ordinary proposal," said . r.
_ not read those dispatches without a smile.- m.--- .
to carry out the arrangement entered into on . _
said 111 r.
• (tiear, hear.) And there were circumstances which took say, that the petition was to be
, place when the present Government was formed which did rested." He went, on to
and
Attwood, •' hut I gave him the 2,00 a, aed there the matter
not dime. •h in
is my mind the disposition to smile.-(Hear, knowledge that electors were
hearasked if he had any
, and laughter.) I allude to the joy which the Austrian un being
withdrawn, and that Major Beresford was to vacate;
tiovernrnent expressed at the total change of men aid of money paid. He cOuncils which no knowledge of it, except through the
sort .
gird.then took place.-(Hear, hear, and laughter.) bribed to vote for him and Major Berestordi he said he had
leohite Ids very amusing, many things considered.and
la' gli° was carried oti. Die next. eleciiun was in 1847,
and le as he said these words, laughed heartily,
rpm had doubt whatever, it was notorious that this or
• But thtteHouse cordially participated in his merriment.]
Mr. Attwood wa‘s cam ink; on similar " was another which me as to a word
which was point struck . . .
un at Harwich,
he would observe, that at the time these chimps were going
• id about Mr.
opera-
for divi •
, I think, written_ hastily; and is ithout opportunity tions atLyme 6
and their &tugs at St. Albans,
Edwards and Sir. Blegg, .
diving' into the depths of Rymer and consulting our an-
dent treaties, Though I have great respect for Austria, andnot merely a
. _do not wish to undervelue the utility of her alliance to Eng- the agent of Mr. Attwood.
but they were mere pieneiestier.umroreesdwwasith Sir. Moss,
• ~ land, or to detract from the antiquity of that alliance (ex-
candidates. Mr. Sloss arrived
. sending* I think, as far back as i 68d - I cannot carry it Political. opinions, of his
._
giver of bribes to a great extent, but an exponent of the
. , eigptvihexier), I think the application of the words "oldest ally" that .
diateipublished Address, in which he stated
rather inadvertently
. --d ear, . from the pen of the Government an
at Harwich on the 15111 of June, 1847, and he imin:.-
. sine, withe-seeing that we had a treaty, offensive and defen-
ho would support their trade, reduce their
. Ithiuk thatrtueal as early as the year 1373.-( Bear.) And "Ida, "who would
AttwoYod,,and another gentleman would seek their suf-
de, rodt laowever ancient an alliance with Austria may ttudial can shand north of Europe." When questioned in the church-rates, and establisti an intercourse between the
. earlyte„od ow that hers extends so far back as that port •
Cum-
,, an „amt. . and not only was there a treaty binding us to ce defensi to a few individuals the hope that their
mittee, Mr. Moss said before he published the address he
acted upon ho defensive but in two years afterwards it was had held out a hope
~ _
the
by with' d
°wit." a force to Portugal to assist her in the
although Auaatn'y that he had a list of 33
by our early and faithful am sure that we should not pass ehurch-rates would be paid for them. At page zo of
" Bluebook," Mr. Curran stated
more than 3,0001. for their votes.
laugh)-and the Court of Portugal-(A electors, to whom he
yet on many e6casions,
fromna haa been very valuable to us,
2/. 31 or 5/. each.
, the Will and inclinations ot tctrcumstances, independent of Albans, • where the electors got some , ..,
This, therefore, was paid
more monstrous case than bt.
was at different times
regard t the election of
in
thehe Austrian Government, it Here they averaged more than IUOI. each.. That was the
break away et l•
polled to orn the en
course of the last war corn- election of 1842. Thee, with
eo
.4 .
taken -(Sarcastic cheers, and tau ht.
k gagementa sbe had under- 1847, the Committee reported, " That th 1. st election, so
a. Friend
Now then, Sir, I think that the 62,4_e:r torom the Liberals.) far as
Gentleman the Secretary for thelnah f the Right Hon. void. Resolved,,. that the said John Attwood, Es q., was by
regarded the election of Juba Attwood, Esq., WAS
setisfactory in 'regard me Department was
. oot quite so
1 tion of my lion Lo the poitit to which dence went to show that about 9,000/. was spent on that oc-
his agents guilty ot bribery at the said election?' Tue got-
- especially the resolution u
of
G Points, as it was Cagan. Since then there had been two or three elections
t distinctly (I e - rears' d fll h • but t unseatedf bribery were not gone into,
• upon the disposition the overnmeutt Th
my Hen. Friend poin.s . may cam_ u ion of or arwic ,
•thout He had shown that
sively) to the intentions of foreign teovera tt say exclu- the Members being wt .
reply of the Right Hon.
Government, and a difftesZ
Gentleman tells us *rat
on a groeeest corruption prevailed at St. Albans; that it had
are the in- been twice convicted ot bribery within two years. He ap-
tentions of thd British Govern
d h travellers, the other t
• the first referring to English
willing to int, pealed to the House to allow him to introduce this Bill, and
1 am
refugees. Still, however.° fareign he thought that every one who had the morality and good
tate- throegovent of the people at heart would join in granting
even more largely than ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
believing that now there isan him permission e asked.
the words of it appear to go, • of Au • a Mr. H KER SEYMER, hoped the Hon. and Gallant
i p les-(Sarcastic cheers
Government which appears, in the. opinion stria, to MemberH. would excuse him if he endeavoured to stop the
• • sympathise more fully with her its further progress of his measure. Why was not r
relations have
from the Opposition) -than the IPartieric Administration did.
•it appears that now, at least, amicable • .14:rw in the enjment of its two Members? HarwichA
end election of the two Members, which took place last
• been restored which we were told had year, the • d
ly nove because --was di)ruu ge-his Right Hon, Friedd the Judge Advocate
; preceding five years (I can say this more free c sted
December but from practices, de_ with a petition, complaining not of corrupt
not existed in the
it appears now that it dates not from Decem nt of interference and intimidating `practices by
.- • February)-as it appears that now there is such a friendly her hhiesty's late Government, and he gave notice of a mo-
nrimitt
ot oppose. The Committee was appointed,
feeling-such a .morn it confidence established betweesn
atnhde
otioonvefronrmaecontaid
n ee. which he was bound to say the late
, English and Austrian Governments-(Sarcastic cheers and
consequence of the lateness of the
• • laughter)-so that there is now no danger for British but it did nothie
practised
into a- careful scrutiny, and
travellers in Austrian dominions. I venture to suggest
ainttee of last session, over which he had
• . •to my Honourable Friend ( Mr. Milues) that he may
. dlairik this discussion has sufficiently accomplished his etheseshioonn.ouTr hofe per°elffist°"7
should not have known IV, it Was inapossible that they purposes in bringing his motion forward-(Hear, hear)- ,
if bribery had been
s took place withou lie believed that every few
. and, therefore, if the Government think it better, with a election briber
an extent as to justify diatr Y occurring, but not to
view to those considerations, of which the Government such
he was a friend to ortea"cillsement. But do not
must be the best judges, that this resolution should not be suppose that
in bribery.-er7 and there
ment conservative
and corruption. ere
adopted,-if it would be considered by the Austrian Govern- was nothing.
e derived from local
toutecorruption. There
ment as a rebuke for offences that have ceased to exist, and • was influent:
impartial exercise of mag " melt:inn, arid from the
that it would render less satisfactory the relations between , just and
but it was at the mere
vdunftie9" . This was
`the two Governments, I should suggest to my Hon. Friend legitimate influence,
Club with -' any man who
question w o
that if the Government think it better to move the ' •sent down by the Reform
previous was a be, of .
that Mr. Coppock ovetdes dvereigns.
question than to agree to the motion (I presume, of course, • He believed, however,
In
the Committee it MI 'timated his
that they would not attempt to negative it, since it con- power of corruption.
exercised, but there din there-
tains a statement which no one can deny), if they should was considerable influence
ecall for rho 't not
the
t as to
think fit to move the previous qnestion, -I
should really . pear such a case of bribery
have been corrupted, and
recommend to my Hon. Friend not to go to a division, but ; House. One voter was proved to
Id now state, as far as de
acquiesce in that mode of disposing ot the very proper and his vote was struck off. He we u
present, what
Sir was not
useful motion be has brought forward. - (Cheers.) could, as the Hon. Member for
It seemed there was a
Sir J. WALK," hoped that the lion. Member for Ponte- , took place in the other Committee.
fract would adopt the suggestion of the Noble Lord. He ; foolish custom at Harwich to destroy the pol 1. irg . booths as
occasion they
was sorry that the motion had been brought forward, as it soon as the polling was over, and on that
that
had only caused speeches and a discussion which would pro- i were so anxious to commence their work of destruction
invalidated the
duce irritation and interrupt the friendly relations existing they were five minutes too soon, and they
Corn-
• -• between this country and foreign nations. He was not so election. That was all the case they had before the . .
certain that foreign countries had not some grounds for the mittee. It was • said that it was a small borough. Caine
- demands they had so perseveringly pressed with regard to was a small borough, and Caine was under influence.
ref gees, As the state of things abroad was- new more set- Arundel was a small borough, and Arundel was under in-
dperhaps that was the reason that these demands were fluence; and there were many more. He could name
not so strongly pressed, and he rejoiced to see that a subject some that belonged to those who sat on his side of the
which might have afforded reasonable grounds for a case of House. The Noble Lord, the late First Minister, brought in
war with England had been considered by foreign powers a Bill to remedy what he considered this evil; but the Noble
••• With reference to the laws ,of England and public opinion . Lord saw no reason why Harwich should be treated differ-
..-..here, and they had not pressed demands which might have ; ently from other boroughs, nor did he. Were they prepared
prowl 111004 y to us,, Na Busligasall Visiiild Ivitut. ail 09 .do wwgils ogler .b9r9ughuldilt- Um yilatir i? 09 *ii
••.....,...1.1

1..

LONDON,

wards Harwich? He had stated that if the Hon. and Gal-
lant Menth'r succeeded in hi 9 motion, he would make a
similar motion respecting the borough of Leicester; but the
114. n. Member for that borough assured him that no bribery
took place at the last election; and he believed him. None
took place at the last election for Harwich; and if they did
not bear unjustly upon Harwich, he would not make his
motion respecting Leicester. • .
Mr. CLAY said it mattered little to him whether the cor-
ruption at Harwich was promoted by the late Government,
or by any individual. He hoped for the credit of all admi-
nistrations that they would join in putting an end to such
disgraceful doings In a matter of this kind notoriety was
all they required to induce them to act: He had it
on the authority of a gentleman intimately acquainted
with the place, that in 1841 two men, father and son, re-
ceived between them 1,0001. They bought large barges with
the money, and were audacious enough to name one of them
The Attwood. • The other he did not know the name of,
but it might be The Plumper. In other cases voters were
made so drunk that they never got sober again, bat died
drunk. He believed that by issuing Commissions to inquire
into boroughs; where it was believed that bribery had been
practised, would do more good to promote purity of eleCtion
than anything they had dune to effect that object during tne
last century.-

Mr. BA4SHAW observed that what he had said were his
genuine convictions, and though the Hon. and taallant Gen-
tleman had raised a laugh at his expense, his words would be
found to be true: Tne best course which the House could
pursue would be to issue the writ for Harwich at the next
general election, and let the borough be tried by its conduct
then. It the constituency were wise people they would know
how to act. (Loud laughter,)
Mr. Secretary WALPOLE opposed the motion. What
was asked for was, that the House should issue a Commis-
sion, with enormous and unconstitutional powers, which in
many respects would supersede the law of the land.—
(Hear, hear.) Such a Commission, he thought, ought never
to be granted except in a clear case of corruption recently
and distinctly alleged. —(Cheers.) If they agreed to the
motion they would give to a majority of that Howie a power
to deal with boroughs and counties that might be, opposed
to their 'views, to which he could never consent.—(Cheers.)
The authorities dpon which this case rested were those of
.Sudbury and St, Albans, but he begged the House to bear
in mind bow greatly both these precedents differed from
the case before
.them. In Sudbury the bribery was so
great that out of the 276 electors who polled for Mr.
Dyce Sombre, no fewer than 20,5 were proved to have
been bribed; and the commissioners reported that they
believed the bribery must have been carried to a much
greater extent,- because, at the rate of 71. per head, that
would not have. accounted for the 3,0001. which had been
sent to the borough for the purpose of corrupting the
voters. The casp of St. Albans was still stronger. Accord-
in to Mr. Coppock to bribe or to "bleed" was the general
practice, and Alderman Carden said the political opinions of
most of the constituent's were in their breeches' pockets.—
(Laughter.) The Commissioners in this case also reported
that the practice was not occasional or partial, but general
and systematic., Out of 290 voters who polled for one
of the 'candidate's, only 30 were supposed to have been un-
bribed ; and out of 276 who had voted on the other side,
186 were clearly bribed. In both cases there was thus
shown to be universal corruption, and it was proved to have
occurred at the election which had just taken place; but in
the case of Harwich, the Honourable and Gallant Member
had gone back as far as 1842, and had only come down as
late as 1847 or 1848. There might have been bribery in
both cases, but then there was bribery at Leicester, in the
case of which the Committee reported that the system carried
on had been such as to demand the attention of the House.
But would it be just and fair to the Hon. Members for Lei-
cester, because bribery had been proved in 1847, to issue a
commission with enormous and unconstitutional powers, and
then to dispossess them of their seats, and disfranchise the
borough? Where bribery had taken place, it ought imme-
diately to be inquired into; but in the case of Harwich, two
elections had occurred since 18'47, on both of which peti-
tions had been issued, the first 'Of which alleged only a want
of qualification, and the second only intimidation.—(Hear,
hear) He wanted to know then on what principle they
could issue a commission to inquire into this case, without
also inptiring into all other places where Hon. Gentlemen
could get -up and say that notorious bribery had been
practised.--(Hear, hear.) The duty of the House was to
protect the minority,—(Laughter)—and therefore he pro-
tested against a course which might lead to the results
which he had already pointed out.—( Hear, hear.) Besides,
there was also this anomaly. They had disfranchised one
borough ,(St...illbans), of which the Hon. Member still kept
his seat; and.now, they were asking for a parliamentary in-
quiry into another, where no corrupt practices had been
proved. They were keeping open that seat for more then
12 months; but surely the inhabitants of that town were as
much entitled to have a representative in the House as any ,
other borough.—(Hear, hear.) He considered—first, that
they were not entitled at all to institute an inquiry into
any alleged corrupt practices, unless such corruption were
recent; and, secondly, that such inquiries ought to be pro-
deeded with immediately, otherwise they might derive the
country for one
.or two years of its proper number of repre-
sentative-t.—(Hear, hear.) In the present case, however, as
the seat had been . kept open 12 months, and as a general
election was so near at hand—(Cheers)—he did not think it
would be rightp move for a new writ.—(Hear, hear.)
- Mr. J. BELL thouht that the case of St. Albans was bad
enough, without making it any worse than it was.
(Laughter.) He thought it was very severe to exaggerate
the amount of 'its corruption. According to the figures of
the Commissioners' report, there were 200 voters against
irrhQm fhere was no allegation of bribery or corruption, and
therefore the corruption was not universal. With respect to
the•present motion he was in a somewhat difficult position.
If he voted for the proposed Bill. he should vote in opposi-
tion to the argument he had used in favour of St. Albans—
(Laughter)—and if he voted against it he should be appa-
rently voting in favour of corruption.— (Laughter. )
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL objected to the animadversions
which the Hon. Member (Mr. Clay) had cast upon the
Election Committee. He (Mr. O'Connell) had sat upon
two Committees, in both of which the Members were un-
seated—in one of them (the Lincoln case) upon the very
smallest possible amount of evidence that could be considered
sufficient. Of course they were bound to see that the case
was proved according to the law of the land.—(Hear.)
Mr. CLAY had certainly no intention to censure the Com-
mittee, but he slid think that they were not the best tribunals
kir silting evidence, as he thought had been confessed by the
issuing of commissions.--(Hear.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE protested against the idea that the
supposed approach of a general election was any, reason why
a new writ should not be issued. The reason why it had not
been moved for in this case was, because the inquiry had been
pending. How would the evidence of Mr. Coppock have
been obtained but for the St. Albans Commission; and if the
Commission now asked for were issued, no doubt they would
be able to get the evidence of Mr. Attwood, which would in-
duce the House to pass a Bill for the disfranchisement of
Harwich. At all events, if the Commission did not issue, he
(Mr. Duncombe) should certainly move for the new writ,
because he thought an injustice would be done,...if they any
longer suspended it, to a very immaculate and honest bo-
roug h. ( Laugh ter.)
Mr. WALT OLE explained that under the circumstances
he should not move for the writ himself.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. BANKES explained that the petition to the House,
alleging that three of the five voters who constituted the
majority at' the last Harwich election had been intimidated
by the late 'Government, had been placed in his bands by
persons whom he believed to be respectable ; bat he had no
further interest in the matter whatever. At the beginning
of' the present session there had been no petition praying for
a renewal of the inquiry, and therefore, although the same
Government was then in Office, he had not thought it his
duty to press the subject. It was quite true that he had
moved for a Committee, but that was a very different thing
from a Commission. - (Hear, hear.) With regard to the
case of St. Albans, there had been a technical difficulty as
to the adjournment of the Committee, and that had vitiated
their whole proceedings. 8° far was he from wishing to stretch
the power of the Constitution, that he bad voted against that
Commission, thinkir,g that its powers should be intrusted to
Members of that House; and he wished they had been so.
The House would have stood higher bad that inquiry been con-
ducted by its members. That Commission had shaken their
juriadietipu, , and had tended to invalidate the decisions of
' their Committees. At present he saw no ground for the pro-
posed Commission. Had a Committee been proposed sup-
, orte t by such a petition as he - had presented, he would
have voted for it.. If the lion. Member for Finsbury would
move the issue of the writ for Harwich, he would vote
with him. .
Mr. DEEDES said he had acted as chairman of the
second Harwich Election Committee. No evidence as to
bribery was laid before them, nor was any conclusion come
to on thit subject. The Committee's decision was founded
entuely on a point of law, as to whether the poll was kept
open the,proper time—whether it had been interrupted by
itnpropet4. violence—and whether the returning officer had
taken the steps he ought to have .taken. The Committee
thought. he had not done so, and consequently deemed it a
void eleCtion._ It had been said, if the borough was so iin-
maculate_ why should it object to an inquiry ? That might
be made an argument for a Commission in any case where
there was no complaint whatever.' Fla could not help think-
ing that ~Harwich was rather hardly dealt with, and he saw
no reason why a writ should not issue. It was altogether an
unfair proceeding,
Sir DE LACY EVANS, in reply,.said he. as not aware
that the minority bad any such. peculiar claims to consider-
ation as hid been urged by the Home Secretary; he had
always understood that the majority decided everything.
Re justified the appointment of the Commission by reference
to, the case of St. Albans, and contended that great benefit
had resulted therefrom.

Ur. RUEBUCK.thought the proposal for a Commission
came rather too late, The inquiry at .St. Albans had been
instituted merely to enable the House to arrive at the facts;
and upon these facts the Bill brought in by the Noble Lord
(Russell), and taken up by the present Government was
founded. He could not vote• in favour of this Commission;
and he thought, they ought not to allow that night to pass
without issuing the writ. lie would have voted for this mo-
tion had it been made a year ago. Now, the best 'thing
they could do was to let Harwich have another trial to
save itself from condemnation. He had no doubt it was a
corrupt place -a year ago; but the motion came too late.
T he House then divided when there appeared—.
For the motion
Against it ...
Majority against the motion... —4l
_ _

Mr. T. DINCOMBE said, as it had been decided that
no inquiry should take place, the House had no right to dis-
franchise the borough; either for a week, for two weeks, or
a month. He therefore moved that the Speaker should
issue his warrant to the clerk of the crown, directing a writ
to iSSUE)- for the borough of Harwich, in the room of 'Mr.
Crawford.

Mr. BRIGHT said this motion seemed to follow somewhat
naturally from the course taken by the Government, but
there was no necessity that it should follow so immediately.
A former attempt had been made to move this writ, and the
` House hid thonght that it should be suspended forsome time
longer, for some cause not very clearly explained ; but there
.was an understanding that notice should be given before the
writ was moved. After a debate which was not supposed to
have any special reference to the motion, and after the pre-
vious discussion and understanding, it would not be fair
that that motion should be consented to. Considering the
suddenness of the proposition, and that many Members had
left'the House, having no idea whatever that any such mo-
tion would be submitted, he hoped it would be withdrawn,
and notice givcn of it for a future day. It would be better
to put it off till after the holidays. lie moved, as an amend-
?merit, that the debate should be adjourned.
o the unnecessary and
S►r D L. EVANS seconded the amendment.
inptairucJe• TYRELL said that was another most unfortunate
Hon. improper interference of the
mancheeGentle'rnan opposite. It appeared to him that the
tion of theor
loped the House would not accede to the dicta •
thing. ZlSF.hool were determined to have a finger in every-
brimmed opposition—(" Oh, oh," and
laught,r)
opposition to the uncle hoped the House would not act in
ar. BROTHEZron: the motion just made.
(Hear, that no writ was to issue
the Hon. MeMber for Finsbur n moved
iesaarrhdzythoddtetteuar:asi the liberal party having
ts)Eif aorvyva
declared
Harwicheoevilared
that was con-
, ,
jwwcueirsrlititnl
ti
eort
t bout
joinedo, tNids
Esuuewi
issue, although
D.ontE i cue ,An—plro
Ep
uh
that the
The Hon. lleinwa.s.
Der to 141911Viterl 491Ters. Was mire pradeut ter 40
not tit to return a literaber.—( ear, jaw.)
.