The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-27 00:00:00

Inaba) them to increase their forces. But how stood the
facts? So fa; was there from being any just ground to
Republic
hostility, that the President of the French
tteeublie had written to the different. powers of Europe
giving expeeseem to the most pacific intentions, which
were seconded by a reduction of tee National Guard.
That did not look like purposing
to use a large utilitery
force of regular troops abroad; and in the French navy
there was malaria:: beyond ordinary activity. There v.as
nothing, then, to show there was any danger to thia
country from 'abroad, and whenever anon danger
Bileuld appear, immitiont the people would readi.y. give
the executive the means of defence.—(Hear, hear.) But
there was a danger from letting the executive of this
country have a larger disposable military force than the
eiteutastances of the country.reqeired. .Give the.. _exe•
°lttive the power' of garrisonirg the United Kingdom
with a militia, while they had 30,000 or 40,000t0
regular troops to &pare, aura they might then adopt
tone with foreign powers which would bring aboutah )tthh
very war they new affected to deplore. 'c
experience of history showed that it was deetgs and the.
to
entrust the Executive of Eewith too Log
gland eae
a
tart' power; but there were no facts to show that,ed to
eyla •
tut any cause or dispute
England had been eubject
Sudden invasion from a friendly power. Telluric, of in-
toion, he (air. Gibson) bad, in 1848. then that &viand
greatest diffi
Wag
in persuading a French g n
"8 not likely to interfere withthet'tia;u'rma of government
Which France had then adopted, by landing troops on
the continent. That gentleman
there were two
things
England would never said,
do—she would not repeal i
the navigation laws, nor ever cease to interfere with the
form
a o. government on the continent; and he added
teat all the fuss which was then made in this coun.try
Was for the purpose of putting the people in a fighting
444, to further the old pulley of all Governments of
this country. He (Mr. Gibson) mentioned this
toove that net. only Eeglishmen, but also Frenchmen,
11)ight suspect ,invasion, and indulge in unf tweed
fear on the subject of internatienel iuterfarence.
But the House was told that it was necessary to do
tourething to waken up the martial spirit of the people,
enervated by a long piece; and that the only my an' or
effecting this .object was to call out the notate On
that point heaweuld read an extract from Sir Janice
Mackintosh ',respecting the mental spirit of the country.
[The Hun. Gentleman then read the passage in quo's-
lion, which was to the of et that a free 'Aaron like Eeet-
land, full of power and full of order, a:tautened in itself
all the essential elements of an army. That the people
of England had accordingly proved that in time of ne, d
they could be a nation o• warriors, ,hough they were not
a people of soldiery, and that fa-ern n were brave be-
cause they relied on themselves 3 With regard to the
Manic which had been a.luded to, h. (Mr. Gibson) would
add to the valuable quotation made by the Hon. Baronet
the Member for Tamwerth another from the same
authority—:that ef the late Sir R. Pet 1. in r• f. renew to the
Pitnic of 1848. On the 26th of February, 1848. Sir R. F eel
4,41 that after the panic which bed pitor.ilsd, he was
Mad to find the alarm of ineasion had ub tad—that he
Was rebeved when be la-ned it was pot the ietentiee
:If the Goverement to make any increase in tae melt
TY and naval force of the count y.
The Noble Lord the
thember for Londiat also. said. when the panic• sees over,
at though he hail heard much of the iesufficieney of
e force of the country, the contrary was the case
;`ttist the country was it a state of as wrest strength
required to he, and that it had nothing to tear trim
jaa, suedes outbreak or hostilities in any .cparte.r. He
r• Gibsan) was iold that he ciught to bow to tee
'-:tbority of disieguishe d men on this point, slid he
rini willing to do so; but when one pointed out me
tittiraceand another own erl out another, he e uld, net
oeteide which to bow to. In tact, no two of them were
hittateet on the sut‘jr-ct. A la -e Leld of the Admi •
tYr for instance, had said that evening that an in-
e4se in the military tree of the country was but
the Led, and that with 4 000 men and boys added to
1/-13"3. he 'would underteke to make all sea. The
en. and Gallant General who moved the amereitneet
fositibled the nea-ssity of any ineretoe in the ulna:are
i)preo •of the country. Tteretore, though it
Comm te-
e eautoPtuou., as the Noble Lord the Fast a-
tttrher of Works steed, in a private member to en-
fllle an opinion on the suhket of the widens'
anew,e when all the authornies disagreed with
kt janother on the point. he was compelled
udge for himself. A' late Secretary at War
n
Ih said that the House and the country knew no-
g about the netional def
erces. ard that a prtlitei-
ttY inquiry was, therefere, ric cessary. A mere con-
tted mess—in
,fact, a more unsatisfectory cou-
p for the war party--one mitre mel an-
ii°lYr one more humiliating, one more a-
e;et°tY: it was difficult to conceive. Retorting ton t trhe
eetits of the question, what was supposed to be done?
bounty of 61. was to be given, and the Noble Member
131:: Tiverton said that such was his contidence in the
nilTli! of England that those men who should receive
`tmty would come when they were wanted. Be
Of it,' vr.k;) admired the generous, confining spirit
Noble Lord, but he could not coincide with
14— in his conclusions—more especially as the Hon•
taezilhet for West Kent had stated that in his regiment
I°it
Ine there were no fewer than 800 desertions, and as it
k. a proved fact that botwhstending the terrible
ketilatimerit-awarded ii
to desertion, not less than 53,000
ieriode.i- deserted from the regular army in the short
th ten Years• To rely, therefore, on seeing (strain
ose
men who had' once undergone the severity of mili-
tary displine
Mr. Gi6inroWa9, to say the least of it, nut wise. He
v'ould - , doubted, however, whether bounty men
tact ;
for obtainable at all in the manufacturing die
r the
at wages were larger than the bounty. In
tballetavr the ballot would be bad recourse to. But the
trott
thta:israp.proupreeteeomuspeiroi)pmtioenzt,which would take men
°lithe par' and leave their families
eonseri t. 'et; and it there was a justification for that
ion
tou e
bporwea:ivnieugmilitary cases, the same justifications x-
iitertlef,P
men to serve in the navy. Such a
sot
• r, if it was at any time justifiable, was
slaters now when, according to the statements of Mi-
the p4st and present, the countryin the meat
Bill bul:aoSaible refatiens with all foreign states. The
01Generfore,the House would take peole back to the time
this 8-u-brie las though the feelings of the country on
qib.__,Jeet had entirely changed since then. He (Mr.o-
itati'aapa or inqanoe, doubted it I ersona of strong r •
ben. '111125 Would serve even if drawn, seeiag thatricemen
%area of religion had no business in tee army. Wt,a",
to p,,l,°°uld be done with tie( ea? Would they be cut
ego r Then, as:aie, supposing men with such fey 1-
10 be willing to rely -, were they to be brought, into
liertat't with the bounty men, ;,p-esons for the most
tare Who had hat it characters, and who
ke_ too idle or too vicious to work ? Were young
nut' religiously and morally educated to be
toad in puelic-houses ;slan with these men, and
41141 0) herd together in beer-shops and such ?
heer2l4would it not be a wrong end an injuetica to
thetese""P.'keepera and publicans to bale!, ueon the m
tem 'O,OOO men, venom they would have to supply with
114,tinatice at a very reduced ;rate ? In every light,
AT,'"hre,,under which the' question was viewee, though
4,0-111 b. fore the House might be fitted tor the times of
tee George
111., it was not suitabl., for the advanced intelit-
ta:le of the reign of Vicorta. The-Ever, Hem Score-
ea! for the Colonies bad referred to toe militia or the
tt.d .
tort . States in support of the measure;
.but be fagot
,„114te the exact nature of the institution. It was (lily
ti4;4_ ster of the inhabitants capable of bearing arms three
pear a year, at which there was no eninpulsion ap-
Kyr, further then-a-trifling fine of 75 cents. Li the six
Eleand .S wes, towor r the militia had been we-
011_ttia1 y laughed out of exiaeuct. To tell E,glana that
The Was au ewe-aanle. to folioes was therefore, lichculous.
Blaine,,tae army of she d '
k consisted onlv --"States, from, California to
were resident thartills:li.9. 000 .nien, while persons who
the uniform elf seeZntY Years had never seen
,tates militia as an eiaearp.te Tia quote the United
94. r. Gib-on) a.title eo. Zdt Erlgland gave him
ettilittle more to the
thtormtvion conveyed by the
t,tettn. Some years sinee• tea scregtll Hen. Gentle-
tbs. aubt. and their
‘Joited States bad addressed
.the hi heat
eirouLarrYtat War .of the
14tlitae, office rsin the States on
tl'aPlies were uniformly adv. tae to the
a-la officers, General Cadwallader, militiaiee, One of
oaliultotofthveinse;;, Awart;•-
a;ad"the effect of the musters on the morals ot te!pvetsonilae•
kat most injurious,, for that riot, drunkenness, mud tin ae'telity were the order of thmeilditaayryatp
;get said the mtletia, in a
()Ile than useless,inasmuch as these visa,
Were
%eh
o insubordination °nlr f and vice Tne,sama teatico,,;,,y
He (Mr. Gibson) fait stronely
13-I:‘36rne by the others.
amaabtibject, end he wished to exprees himself strongly,
tits `lcflea should bear in mind that they wferittenngialag to
thft hp some 13,000 or 14,000 young men
Yorkshire alone—the seat of theh principalw.uld be no
acture
'teen • a of this country—and tbat
444 interrtiption to Ale predictive tinisdustry of the
themselves,
aeteac!) and no 'light injustice to the men
large earn-,
144 "ohla beecOmpelled thereby to
ee'e4hd nerbeent lose. al tog, then 411estl h therefore, h thieoirr"eomiedloyments.
4let edY- °Pe
eit
RE that the measure would
healed • RBERT .said the Right Hon. Gentleman
"tate
oflae nitlitie as as aggreesive tur. e
e conducive to a
eopton the
Ictatga warfare; ho (Mr. S. Herber),
Toe
ttletilt43%.,vievverl. it as a measure purely_ of peace.
bun. Gentlemen :poke of the two Militia B.Tfshaiss
(24r. Et'en passed 'deflate; a period cif fetes ign war
'Nre b' aerberes) recollection served hie! right th
alai pe tt re
"th passed , in periods ef peace—ehe Bill of 1786,
comerneneetnera of the peace which loilowed the
tt of the American war. and the 42,1 George 111.,
oe;41,11 1802, after the conclusion of the war, which
toe:in the year preceding. The facts were not, there-
eone contorinity with the statements of the Right
tide
ont'vntl•baan. . The Elan. Member for Tamworth had
7t),Ple-in'rldaY, Lilal. there were three ways by which
„Nee,' a prl2o4s3.Bttite, could judge of she necessity.ot
vlope e roessurea. The first, was the sensitive remifi-
a the winto,ree, which vibrated ail over the country
8 herat aceeta of Oeuger. The Han. Mater said
to thethe
which wade overwhelming efforts to
lete...,,Yoblie more rapid information than the Govern-
es, 'nera was commerce, and there was diplomacy.
' ith rep
k ethwer reaped to 00111CDPTCP, he very much doubted
'lie "I/interest would chair!), ineicate the state of
taacteta..; w- veer e -or war. Capital hop d to the last
• e.",,`al.ellee "01,1 not, leave its usual eh:valeta unfit
"tots "`"•and experience proved Viet in all wars which
,44,4111'4.iYu1y tni. v.. nation, commerce was the first to
;itte. VlTlburgOra s" Zabel of vessels in laostia
itte ,eat. 0, therefore, he did nut think commerce. was a
'ttio Null he weuldtake the res-
We "Ilan , . urea wake the lien.
re stn melte glee its waren)* But to what
411 f, we to
--'•• ...ad we not had warning enough in
tin ,
kNi he thought "van too much—tor it
elm thet the hostile. criticise:in and the essump • were aokaititewhich • h
- OLf
uuktl3Ced. those -Warnings,
ccund
to:t thr„v and textremely iejunicious. For be held
httl!tir,.....„;,ltatiosa was the nest juge of it 4 et.vn internal
I,t 4eign "3' Iv Airei nee:rainy referited the criiicieres of
thee I.r
el,e. tithes- on peaks or on s) steers of go-
ut,
11 awe_ Every nation cuneidered that it was their
.."88
Ihtil with their ovnalumaf gaernmentf

and to chastise parties it guilty. A guat @vl.l in r
neighbouring country might he produced from this
cause. There might be this reason alkged fur our ctiti-
cisna, that we did not sympathise with tho operations of
the French nation. But that was no reason Why We
should doubt that the French nation were perfectly con-

tent with their present form of government, and 'with
the person whom they had appointed to the highest
post. Wiih regard to diplomscy, in that he admitted he
bad more cassflienee, because its duty eras to inform itserf
of the state of rAaticais with foreign powers. Any want of
vigilance or duo exercise of elution would be sure to be
visited wish censure. That department acted under
heavy responsibility, and when then fue he found. that
two Governments hasi-callel on the country to consent
to -a Militia Act, he' felt he could -not rainse 'his asisent
to it.—(Hear, hear) The Noble Lord (Lord Palmer
ston) spike of the difference in our iustilar position.
He would not expatiate on that observation. S. • long
as the wind blew from the west, and it-did this for threa
parts of the a ear—(Lauginer)----certainly the wind had
lately-blown from the east nearly a quarter-of a year,
b.it there were three still to come, and the - wind might
change—hot it esed,' to be,- so long as the wind 'bkiiw
from the west, all whO had the responsibility & gusfrd-.
ing our coast, by s--curing the safety of the
might sleep in
pesce--that time bad gone by. We hart
at present a navy pro-eminent hi efficiency throughout
the world. France had is powerful navy, and was the
maritime power next in importance to Great Britain. It_
it
,
Was said, however, that the French navy was inferior
nucub rs, and,
-
perhaps he might add, skill;bubit, had the
advantage over our vessels, scattered over the world, ca
concentration. France had only one important station
to guard, the Mediterranean station. She could aloe
carry materials of war from her magazines and
delo s with more facility. We must alsO not leave ou
t'f account, in calculating the pn.bability of a war, tb,
port, from which an invading
force might her sent; an'we must also see how far our defenda are complete;
end where thee are placed as
protection to our coasts
We had a navy in a very efficient state—in a greatei
in
state of efficiency than ever was known, He agreed
that opinion; bat our navy was our first lime, anc
if that - wore brok,n through it b,catne them ti
consider what force they had to cam pensats
tor that disaster, and to resist oppression csn our shores
—(Hear, hear.) A return which bad been much us; 0
in deba;e—moved for, he believed, by the Hon. Member
far Montrose—gave, as be would show, a very Llse im-
pression of the amount of force in our posseission to rs -
sist invasion. The return was maved for in an unusuia
;rm, for the Hots. Ms-,caber moved for a retcru of shs
largest amount si force in full pay at presplat the to
turn showed a fore. of 51,000 f.Deli end 17,000 artillery,
making a total of 63 000 men. Now, the usual returi,s
always distinguished rank and fib, from servants, band,
and Carnal-'e.,, which t gether formed a considerabi
hody of o. ens,Tne new return did nothing cif the sort and
was th.-re,,,re a delusion so tar as 68,000 athgesi
se, ce ass asset!. med. The p"nsionrrs were set down at
16 000-9 000 or 10,000 of this number - were in Eng
In 1, Ireland, ;;r Sc-tland, end w.-re the umost the;
could be r. ckon, d upon.' Marines ashore were steted to
be 5,000, bet when war approached what would beeom,
ot these 5,000 met ?—(flear, bear) It was t base to at
we dep,nerti upon for mer.ning our steam-fleet. Hs a
essuld they be re 11;40-d em; iug the clefetaters tishon
-(He :r h. ar.) Then 5,000 set down tar coast guard
dssubaat whether the r, v.-nue could dtapeu
w;th ;heir service. Then the doeliyaid men in time ;
war, he gucpecced, cold not be spared rein the ship,'
awe, —(Hear, hear.) The Irish conssahul ry were tsa
sheusano strossg wed a most s fficient body el. men. Bu
ne would ask she H,,,se wt;ether the state of Ireland wu

ouch—whetber war would make such ts dtff, erten in tha
,rate as to romi,,r it Safe or prudent to withdraw tits

body of men?—(ll,ar, hear.) For the metropolitan po
bee seven thou•and was set down; but he suspected ih,
men would be wanted for their beats in London,—(flesr.
hear.) When these bodies of men Iv, re enumerated, h.
wonnered the country police and gamekeepers were not
at the same titre added, because they were jut as avah-
obi- as the bodies he had enumerated, anti more easy it,
be got at. He would state the am Uot of force we reell)
did vases% for defence aguinst invasion. We had, witt-
ariillety, about sixty- tevrn 'thousand men. From the:
number must be (I, duct-d twenty-two thoutand, tht-
number of troops in Ireland; for he &tinted wheth,;
in the e•:se of war, we could withtirsw those troop
row Ireland. This left us forty-five thousand men

Fr7tm this number we must deduct the sick, the
oeberters, the recruits, officers' serrants, an(
others not produeeable in line, fie would put tbe
umber at one-seven h. Competent fficers had va-
ried between one-fifth and one-eighth ; he, however,
took the number at one-seventh, and that lett us wirt
38,000 men. From tbi-t number must be deducted 5 00(1
for tne d.-fence of the Cbannel islands, Guernsey. Jersey,
&c Tnete were other deducti, ns, which vrowd r. due
the available number to 29,000; but to this nunane,
must be added-the pecsionete, snich, after deduc•ing thr
old and unserviceable pen toners, would give an additior
of between 7,000 and 8 000 wee, making the effectiv,
strength for defence about 37 140 men. But then er,
must have men to (Wenn our forts and arsenals. Ports
mouth would r. quire 5,000 men, Plymouth 5,000 men.
P,,mb,oke 3 000. Then there was Sheerhesl,
Cnterham.
Woolwich, Deptford, Putfleet, and Tilbury. which WOW-
require at least 10,000 men. Its short, with yetiniant.,
anti constabulary, he did not think, including infantr)

and cavalry , sveeuuld dept-nd on more than 28,000 mei
tor deenee. Now, this, wa., not a force that m'ght b.

conisidered as peritct in tfficiency. It would be-toutic
to be cJwposi d of Emall bodies utiaccuAciard to act to-

getrer, and not, theiettore, to efficient as if trained an(
dismplined to act in concert. It must also be
recollected that in Great Britain there wet,

constant demands for troops to aid the civi
power. In large and populous districts, should war b.
declared, trade would receive is cheek, employment would
c. ate, food wuu:d rise. Wt uld the workman, not alto•
gether tractable in peace, rest tractable in war, with al.
no d.sconteme aggravated? By denuding these ccuritie f
of the small force now required, Government would rut
great risks. He wanted to ask the House to consider ba
what methods this deficiecey of &fence was to be met?
The Noble Lord the Member for London proposed en
augmentation of the pensioners, but be thought th,
number of pensioners was not capable of any very great
augmentation; in fact, if an increase, instead of a de-
crease, as anticipated by the late Secretary at War,
was anticipated, he thought the hope would prove a delu-
sien. The Noble Lord did not object to 10,000 embodied
militia. S 'me Hon. Gentleman proposed an augments-
teen of the regular army. There was a particular school
which objected to a standing army, but the standing army
received an almost unanimity of praise. The -regular
soldier was more effieient, but his cost was much more
than the militiaman. The question to decide was whe-
ther the greater efficiency of the regular soldier was com-
pensated ny the greater outlay. The obj,,ct to look at was
which was the best and cheapest peace establishment—
the best able co tie enlarged to a war establishment if the
necessity should arise—which was the most suscep-
tible of enlargement, a standing army without the asi.ist-
&ince, or with the assistance of. a militia, suppose war
wad to take place, and it became requisite to enlarge tie
army to 80 000 men ? In 18-16 the largest number of
stediere were enlisted iu one year, to meet the demand.
owing to wars in India; the numberealisted was between
22;000.and 23,000 men. To Weep a force of 12,000
men to 80,000, would, at that rate, require three years.
Now, we lend this experience with militia, that in the
last war 100,000 miOiett volunteered into the line. These
men wound nut have tteen had if they had not been its
the militta. In 1813, 19,000 militia went into
the regular army. Ho would ask was it not part of the
system to depend on the milida tor recruiting the army ?
In battles in Portugal cud in Europe, the militia
occupied, important poets. The bottle of Wa:elloO
was gained with only about 18,000 regular infantry,
the rest of the British troops being militia drafted into
the line. He stated these things to show that it was not
proper to call the militia a useless force. It was said
by some Hoe. Member that it was not advisable to train
men for. the militia, as that system would tend to
create a dangerous population. Other flonouraulti
Members said militia could not be turned to account in
case of invasion. Beth these arguments he thought
could not be tenable. As far as the Bill went; he re
gretted that both Bills were not consolidate;. Several
parts might bs improved, bat as they were discussing
the principle, he would not go into details. In the
first piece, he considered the force required might be
got by volunteers. The experience of 1809-10.11 12
and 13 proved that militia, could be raised by bounty.
The ballet was used in the country, but in London the
militia, was raised by bounty and not by ballot. The
opo, Member for Manchester said that was in the
tl.dark ag.Ja of
But so recently as 1831
coletu.icpirooa George.r 111.
dlesex by b eissd 1,100 then in the county of Mid;
why
the
same
and not by ballot. Ho did not see
Which
th,l, .
ha:ditities should not now exist. No sys.
rem seas
opinion as to the deadtaiMilseuul7
. %vithout • • its disadvantages. Toe question
of danger to decide respected the baltince
and
Without giving any
of a sie as the principle of it was the
.the Bill tie should give it
hits hea.ty details
es: ablish went
forcien :11)atetimcc.regneonungy.h
itno
meet the wants of
the militia
(*tett:rule° turuYd e s
tact, be loeked en it as
dila, ry—of honour—ot eveentiatihr4"9 of P"Pel't)'—uf in_
that constituted the
he feared e'rving
0f
wateele of the nation.—(lle,,,,',..l)' unPt
luxuries which f 11
w pay the price, they they were unwilling
the protec.
g great w a and the,
et ,1,:in0.)__..., i 5
iki Eiar. ) 1,4
17,
ha:,
, too true that a nation
w, seta, fowl(' it a difficult matter to
ilia, religion of
make thesacrifices'"
ngness to
requisite to pi eservo IT. But it would be d i A g r a e,ui .1' would be a great stigma on their boated civilization, ift
they showed themselves so enervated by luxury as to for-
get
and if they tount
country. to the ititushti.o)wusedanadn
theirmake those eirorts—attt,ndt d with some mconvenienee
their duty
he would admit—xi place their country in such a state ai
defence as wetial secere it against attempts to invade it.
—(Hear, henna 1 He hoped they would not show them-
vedless
settle a like the people in Holy
Writ, who-
laud being good, the liinvetiecare r came
and quiet, but 'NIP , s i
d. fieer, hear.) They had,
and put them to the swoi —(
611 t j -‘CI, advertised their
by their diicu-sions on the
ot the's. Governments
weeklies*. aaid trough the mouth -s
had prueleuned the ace.. ssity for souse addittotial military
force; and having done so, it they t(11 back without
making an attempt to reein-AY the d which they
eficteecy
would
be
b:ai ILA only adurat,d, bat procietsued, terry
guilty of tressott to the welt,re Of their cc,untry.
,
Us. S rAN FORD had ii,tene,l to the able ,I.ud 00'
q tent spettch of ch., tiegtot LI ,n. G-uo.--m- IL , but wished
he had t xplitilied what Was the epecies of danger we e,., '
they were called
on to guard against. It wus out of the
question to believe that the -French could ever meditate
tee canqueat of England, with the view of la rmanently
settling themselves in it. "I he danger apprehended,
therefore-, was some sort of incursion, tor the purpose of
mischief and plunder. Every man would admit, t hat we
should take seeps to guard the country against such a
danger; and the question Was, whether a militia force
was this one best calculated to meet the itmel-gency. his
own opinion. Was rather in favour of increasing the re-
gular armyi. but -as- au protoaal of that kind had been

made, rind not wishing to throw obstacles iu the way of
the present measnre, ho should not refuge giving it his
humble supporr.--(Hear.)•
Mr. H. BERKELEY thought that in the present date
Of Europe we ought to take:measures for preeecting our
country; but ho wee epreised to the eallieg out the
Teat WAS a step which was viewed with alarm
and jealoesy by a lavge. portion of the corneentiiey. He
hu-sv that they would infinitely prefer increasing the
regular army to prying a force upon whieh. no do-
ne.enco could be placid. The better and more agree-
able course woeld be to increase the army.and to man
lee navy. He objected on moral and 'morel -grounds- to
th 3 militia being called nut. He- herd heard magistrates •
cemplain of the great increase'of crime that. toak place.
ecete• tee last embodiment of-militia,- inecortrequnice-ofd
he class of persons discharged. Attention otight 'to he
eeid to the putting of efficient weapons into the hands of •
• ior seldiere. find' else 'to the improving of our steam
navy. Volunteer forces should he enceurateed, and they.
should be allowed' to; make themelves acquainted with
the use- of the modern rifle. A volUnteer force and a
~mall increase of the army would, in his opinion, super.
erde the necessity of a militia,Wand he thought itwould
ne- advisable to dismount our yeomanry corps end make
riflemen of them. •
Sir C. BURRELL was of opinion that a militia was
he best force that could be. organised- atetie:Presen't
moment, and that it would be the least expensive to the
country.
Mr. ROEBUCK 'said, that as the representative of a
large manufacturing- population, be thought it right. Co
,-xpress his opinion upon that important subject. There
were two points raised by that disctission. ' Tholitat was
whether vere was any necessity at all at the present
moment for increasing our 'national defences; and the
cond was, what was the first triode of effecting that in-
ii ease, if any nicessiry for it xisted? With respect to
he first point he should state th:3 he b-lieved great una-
eunity or e•pinion prevailed among the generality of po-
iticisns. He had formerly thought that the Noble Lord
he Member for London had been of that epinien
(Loud cries of `'"Hear, hear," from the ministerial
pouches) He found that Right Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
ire were of that opinion. He understood that the neces-
sity in their tei lief was immediete—that there was some-
ning abroad which rendered" it necQseary for them to
alto immediate steps for the national defence. So the
4oble Lord the Member for' London had also thought

—(Elear, hear)—nand he had, thereupon propoiied a
ll•litia Bill. But after hn had left office, and another
Militia Bill had been proposed by abo,ber Government
ne Noble Lord tippear.ed to have modified his pre-con-
d opinion, and to have come to the concltrion that
ahatever might be the necessity for measures of defence,
hat necessity was not immediate. He (Mr. Roebuck)
,heved that there was a vague manner of talking about
riat question. He wadted to know out of what that
:rce3sity arose? How was it that all of them, with the
ecceoon of the members of one particular school, when
talking together in private upon that sutject, spoke only
of one people end pointed only at one men—the people,
tie people of France—the man, the President of the
Feench R ,public. Tney all knew unfortunately that
aere was a feeling among the French people which a
scl man might take advantage of; and they all said,
,nd he for tis part believed, that that :bad man was
t present in power ic, France.—(Some 'low murmurs
nd Marks of di approbation). - It visa all very well to
ni et to such an avaw,l; but what, he vvouid ask, did
• ey say to one another in private?—(Hear. hear.)
!'hay all stid to one another - that'there was at present
power in France a man who Lind arrive at his po,ition
•y breaking through all the ordinary sanctions by which
ea ,n we bound; they said to one another that he had
ached that position, and that be maintained it solely
Iy fostering many of the prejadic-s of his countrymen;
cud they said to one another,. that of those prejadices
iee of the strongest unfortunately was a jealousy of this
ountry. The person to whom he referred had at the
'resent moment a large army; on the opinion of that
my his power rested: and they all felt that his popu• •
larify with that army might be indefinitely increased by
~vaoing Eegland.—(Elear, hear.) That was the &Ili-
elty before them. Had not that been the meaning of
r,rie statement of the Noble Lard the Member for London
ellen he had brought forward his Militia Bill, 'although.
bal.not stated it? And .was not that the meaning of
,ose who hal introduced the present measure? What
_ _

-c-re they aft aid of? They had not been afraid before
848, and before the present President had arrived at
fit-, head of :he G,,vernment of France.
Nlr, M. GIBSON here observed that a Militia Bill
oven in r Awed before that period.
Mr. ROEBUCK contitined—He said that although
that measure had been propounded before, they bad had
,o elear idea of denger—none of that panic which bad
tt late been so mach takt,d of—until the events to which
ie had referred. And then came the question—sup
insing there was a man in an, position which he bad
ittscribed—let it be a phantasy if they liked—supposing
ttero was a powerful army of 500.000 men in a country
hithin 26 miles of our shores—supposing there aas in
hat country a people jealous and desirous of revenge fee
tfa.t reverses—supposing they huff arrived at a period of
he world when the means of military aggression had
teen immeasirebly increased—then came the question,
"'hat were they to do under those circumstances? Al-
; isioas Ltd been made to the events of the year 1804.
t that tune there had been ruling in France a
rind, gigeotic almost beyond the conception of
clan, the first of generals the world had ever
and cocumarAing an army whose ix-
dloits bad never been surpassed. Iu that year, by
he mere accident that Villeneuve had not been

'old enough to proceed up the Channel, Napoleon had
een prevented from attempting to invades our 'Flores.
de had bad under his command 60,000 men, whom he
:ould bwe put on board a flotilla in twenty minutes;
oid, as he had hicaselt stated, all that he had wanted for
in invasion of England had been that he should have
thuild the Channel tree for twenty-tour hours. But the
'ortune of this country had prevailed, and he had not had
he twenty-four hours. But had not steam since given
hese twenty-four hours, if the men and the army should
,gala be found? Some people, however, told him that in
the midst of those circumstances he ought to advocate
the doctrine of peace upon all, occasions. But he wanted
to know why he was saved Ns he walked along the
suaista fr m beine robbed and knocked down?—(Hear,
aed laughter) he owe his safety to the principles
id' the Gtispel, or t , the int, rlerence of the police?—(Re-
Dewed cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter.) For his
'part he believed that peace was promoted by a person's
making himself exceedingly formidable to any body
who might attack him.—(Hear, hear.) He bad received
a pamphlet, in which it was stated that if the French
invaded us we ought to remain perfectly peaceable. and
let the invaders grow ashamed of themselves, and retire
in a state of absolute contusion.--(Hear, hear, and
:slighter.) That was the sort of view which the Hon.
Member :tor the Wsst Riding (Nit. Cobden) took of
he subject —(Renewed laughter.) He-wanted to know
eliether, if human nature was wilat it bad always been,
laoger did not at present exist in this country, and
whether it would not be reasonable to provide against
Thei had here riches, almost beyond the riches Of
tinagination; and if they were sot prepared to protect
their riches, bow could au army in a neighbe
ex-
country; powerful almost beyond conception,
petted to resist the temptation to become invaders? He
did not doubt the goodness of human nature; but read-
iog histoiy, he found that every nation that had been
rich and weak had succumbed. He wanted to see this
country pirochtiming and practicing peace and justice.
but at the same time saying "
" Touch me if you dare.
—(Hear, hear) How disastrous would be the
consequences not only to England, but to mankind
in general, if, a marauding army were to encamp
in Lonion.—(Hear, hear.) And when he was told that
that Was not likely to happen, let him state thiS fact—
that L'inckon was the only capital in Earoptain which a
French army had not planted its standards.—(Hear.)
It wa, all very well to talk of peace; but that army had
roamed over Europe, checked only by the frost first, anal
then by England; and the French people were at pre-
sent more desirous than ever to have their revenge.
'Contemplating that question, not as an Englishnian, but
as One interested in the des ivies of humanity, he said
that the friends of peace ought to afford their aid in
the effort to strengthen Et Weed for the purposes of
peace itself.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that Ultra was
danger, and that that danger ought to be presided
against. But ho felt persuaded that the beat mode of
attaining that object would be in the first place to make.
our own army and navy properly available.—(Hear.)
A large pertion of our navy was at present °wising
in the nednerrenean.—(Hear, hear.) Why should it
be there? If there was any danger to England, he'
wanted to 'know why the great masa of our naval force
wee. not in the Channel? He wanted to know, in the
next place, why our colonies were so governed that our
great military establishments were abroad.—(Hear,
hear.) If these two questions should be satisfactorily
answered, he should afterwards proceed to consider
what was the best mode of meeting immediate danger,
if it should exist. It was his opinion that fighting was
very much like every other business, and, that ho who
was bred to it would fight best.—(Hear, hear.) He had
not much faith in the military capacity of what was
called a militia.--(Hear, bear.)' The Noble Lord the
Member for London had said that the art of war bad
been wonderfully improved of late years; and he (Mr.
Roebuck) should say he believed that there had never
bten so great a distinction between a rabble and an army
as at the present day. If, thereforee there were any
danger to England, and any necessity for increasing
our defences, he should say that after seeing
that our present forces were properly employed,
we ought 'to increase our national army. It was
said there 'was a danger is a standing , army, and
further say that France was pointed to as an exemplification of
tahtat danger. But he believed that the army of France
of
mor-
row to the Englishat it
present ; expressed the opinions of the people
waswas
told that theE"
ranee., and that the Government established there
ct
exactly what the French people wanted. lie should
a large increase were made to- mor-
aim-9, he, for one, should have no
fuht that LIM Noble Isor
fear for the liberties
England.—(Hear, hear.) But he
Yelnittrston), notwitla confess that
&fete° best moue of providing tor the national
would be to
Lord the Member for Tiverton (Lord
subject he should have the militia. Now upon that
human manse, had x6landiug all his long experience of
he bad been surprised to
b wuouat,hnt;iya belief that those who
under the present
hl37iles would, whop wdtPoLirdhlel'itebly
onc,, bbs,elfiound for the must
put
ptera,,tetnt7ttr,o3l)o"awtso.uld
accept. the
bountye that the crass
evvri4bt
hti
jot eibetr oat,
time
f
ithweuld be per-
rer in the
and he couinld ntilho(t)
:L;0411,0,fm oranueswk,otuel,d
would be the persons most -likely" to be io'unngder? they
ctheir,t,akinlythlttcoultdi,,erneot
arses
eeve
twenty
men
believed, however, that he
Hewn who could be of that opinion. But what would
e
be the use or men if they Would not be forthcoming
them, if they. pleased, add 10,000
couldwhen suggest another plan by,which they could obtain
the adVantages of a re/Oar army and the numbers to be
and let them then
foorullOi .0-06 mielni ittiOalhL;rteghlar Briny;

accept the services of volunteers, to he eerull, d as rifle
clubs. Whet ceutd het the ultitetion to thus enrolment?
Those were not a rabble, who could be regarded as the
enemies of law end order--they were persans who would
bring with them their own rifle:,—who would have a
portion of their time todeteette to eecestaity training;
and they might have 100,000 such men.—(ileart•heer.)
Under all the circumstances of ;he catat he felt that ho
ought to oppose the Bill of the Goveininent. He agreed
;with them that tit= re Wes verger, anchimaiediett-: deluge!.
But he said that the dertge'r, such as it was, was nht,ntit''
by the 8i11... There wee, ,a. eleer 'and defii-itte mode of
proceeding rhich they ought to •adoptt while the mi-
lithe 'which t they proposed let feetablish' wohld,
tlieveclehe mischievous„—(Gear.)-
Mr.
W ALPOltE,,is'aid—l ' agree With the- Ilont and
Learned Gentleman who has jest addressd the House,
that there are two obj t etione raised- to' this measure, one,
hoafs7bheieenh ahr4gBebeedentn tilicrgtr4' cnf'dbenle.6b7l.•dralei,ll;l•lftliv‘b'hlieh o.iPt.'hl:Pern:2bi:ll.:
think, unfairly. Ititthe first plaCe, it ' has been denied.
: that there is any necessity for such' a Measure as thihe
incorder .that yeti nisy'put this great' Itingdont in a tires
per state of defence; and stebndly is Contended, that,
..hat,
.
even assuming such a neoeseity to exist," this 'is ' not the
mode nor is this the time in' which that object can bo
best secured. Now I believe the necessity is "proved,.
ro not -from the cireeblatiee. to ',abut the Hon., an 4,,
niLnoeteareareendneGaigpehhroatoltibijaningit:ettssucecatorly-dd ,
Learned Gentleman, Oftitn ithenediateitivesion of theta
iCia--oi
ooniitohot.ielidne eopanuo)
stuseri
batibliloetyrae,
nitedf
free shores. ' The Honourable and Learned Gentleman 'I
will recollect that a Militia Billeyes proposed long before
the present President of France had been
placed in the
position which he 'now occupies. It was, proposed in 1
tee year 1847 by the Government of- Sir R Peel; it
was proposed by the ' Government of the Noble Lord
(lirti J. Russell) in the years-1847 and 18-18; and.
it is, thereoreeidle to contend- that this measure is
now brought forward 'from. it featn of 'any particular
circumstances -which' have' recently taken place in
Franc'.--(Hear, hear.)
Then, how is that necessity
proved? Is it proetelein the . first pletee by this fact,
which has been admitted by an Ben.and Gallant General
who opposed the mete ure, that the highest authorities,
and ' they t
naval and military, think that something ought vibe done
:quitted _ to, ensure that
tor the better &fence of the kingdom. Secondly, it has
been admitted by successive administratiuns that it as a
duty cast upon the Government teti'ee that the country
.4Ve ,all, found
pro-
itshatin -soam.estthaitoeg omfordeelitancie
proved by the circumstances to which the Noble Lord
tection than tats hitherto been done.
application to
ttos
the Member for Tiverton more than once in
y alluded to, that
take poila,eaes.nTrehei,s,ee
to navigation,
eaves a means by which an incur-1
the
ee course of thosfse
steam, and-
o.foordoiblits
tint], if not an invasion, might be much
more easily
brought within the range of probabilities than ever
it was before, and one cons' quence of
which was,
noteithstandiettahesuggestiobsof the Hon. and Learned
parreoproes.es.onsßwetitchhepor, oisvei,tahceakint);:ey:tthinetYG°fr-f,olitlisn.ll
Gentleman, that no navy, however
turd without a covering force on. the land, te protect. you
rous, Could be certain at all timtnotastaiffePltyll. ;tut ft: Ile:
btoeergrueaualaledeese-
fsem that invasion welch you tat' may
am surprised that any
Gentleman
who moved the amendment,
second time this day six meuths you can meet that iiet
t'etthe colonies.
cetsity either by a re distribatioe or r.-concentration of
the arm', or by drawing
might pa!, upon paper
Sir, I think bo h these pr tpodtient have been met in the
t 60 000 men lauded
course of the debate'.. I twit I.
officer, much less one of the great experience of. the
Gallant General, should tako the view that he has
adopted. I should not be surprised if a mere civilian
snatythem to httee
hid s arted the idea that' you
we will 5,e( whether these men
men of the coast-guard,
.
o6iati-(i)loloonuoor.tmsbh'e'onr;ee as andd, y"tpdoladefend our shares. I think that if
the merle, ncy should arise it will be found that you
gannet denude Ireland any more then you can the colo-
nies of their troops. You are bound to protect that
country us well as this: The -20,000 men in Ireland
did not say 4 word about
emsubsittdrebrne:ninwtheleirseh.
oviTicill.eb
3,5:060
the lion. Member for North
. .
Wi.lts to-night, must-protect our revenue` in war as well
as in peace. .
Sir DE LACY EVANS—I
the coast-guard. '
tleman who seconded the amendment. [An Hon.
Mr. WALPOLE—WeII, then, it was the Hon. Gen.
Member, " No, ne."] Then with. regard to the 10,000
dockyard battalion, all these would be required for
other. purposes; and in short, I. contend that the esti-
mate ,I made when- I proposed- the Bill was not only
Then it is said
not exaggerated, but that anybOdy who will go through
them more than once, will admit that they are under-
estimated, and I reptat again that you could not get
teen in this way to meet, tin enemy'
you can take troops from the colonies; but the same
necessity exists for keeping troops there as in Ireland.
You cannot leave the extremities undefended any more
than the citadel.—(gear, hoer.) Prove to use that the
force in the colonies it too large; and I shall be quite
ready to bring them home. But that is a question which
should be discussed on its own merits, tied not upon
this question. It you take the 40,000 men now in
the colonies, you will, I think, find it difficult to
put your finger on a colony treat which you can bring
any great body of troops. In some of those colonies
our fellow•countryntsia have gone out as emigrants, and
we are bound to protect them. In other colonies we are
surrounded by foreigners and require to be on the alert.
In others we are hounded by large and powerful coun-
tries, and it would not be safe to leave them undefended.
But the greater number of those will be found to consist
of military stations, such as Gibraltar, Malta, the lo-
nian Islands, the Cape, the Bermudas, Labusn, &c., and
the garrisons could not be withdrawn. -I think I have
shown that a necessity exists for the theature I have
brought forward. I thiek I have shown that you cannot
meet that necessity either by a redistribution or a recon-
ct-ntration of your existing forces, or by withdrawing
them from the colonieS. Something was said by the
eh
aasr are
beenall tot'sai
said
peace,ef
or if we Hon. Gentleman opposite as to the best way of meeting
these matters, by encouraging and promoting the 'arts
can;hes.t. andway thereforeo aia .
7there
tain that peace is always to be pr: pared for war.
There is no other way in which you can meet itn and as
Icifthpinaltc,e. asW
for those who, as has been somewhat qUaintly said,
think that by taking away all right anchpower of self-
preservatiou, and leaving mankind in as defenceless a
state as when they came into the world, I wish them no
harm or scarcely greater than that when they are attacked
they shoul i feel the force. of their own. •argument.—
(Laughter.) Assuming that the
necessity exists of pro-
viding some means of defence—what is the best means
of providing lor our defence?. There are. several means
suggested. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemau suggests
an increaie of the navy—other ticiii. Genthimen suggest
an increase of the army—the IT
—on.' Gentleman who se-
conded tee amendment suggested eh increaseofthe -
sioaerst he Gallant Gentleman i e.
the volunteers, while the Noble Lottrests an increasebs
to the local militia. Now .etith regard aradctually goes
increasetk
of the navy. [Mr. Roebuck--" I said the to the
then I shall go to the army i bat I .a a arnsy."] well
has been answered over and
over again.
that propotition
egein. Suppose we
had coma down to the House and •
proposed an increase
would. of 20,000 to the army, What
mild you have said?
o Hare is a constitutional Goveee
who want a largo standing army_
meat. Here are men
wish to assert military power iti
thins
rsr© people who
tbe .Way in which . we should have country. ' That ise
old argument is now used, pat -been met, and the
!3
in-
crease the army—not because we rise we want to
because, they want to oppose the Entend to do solult
ul.—(Ceers.) t
thete are two objections to this
t . coarse--first if you go
ea increasing your army, ;other. Coe t • 'll do the
Same—they will make preparations t n ries en
and
o meet
each will go on increasing e
.4) such Soars,
t
length they will be an incuatheaaae••a_ott.
countryexetent . that.oa.
stead of a defence. The; secaeett th
'ha objection stilli
eteengere and has been often mad often-'urged. is
The
Rouse of Commons would not stand for many years a
large increase of the army, metes_
a it is shown nthat a
large increase of the army is wanted for tau emergency,
1111 emergency,
and not to meet a contiFgerkeY Which Pay not rise for
months or years. It was observed by
_the - Right Ho-
mineable Gentleman the late - Sir Robert Peel that
this country has het end cold fire as regards foreign
countries. During the het_ fits, than the liouse was ex-
tremely liberal-e-a cold fit then came an, and there was.
economy, even to parsimony. Sir, .that.: is
-not the way
in which a groat country like this ought to bgoverned.
--(Cheers.) If you want a force to. protect
ourselves,
you must have one that, will be always read y d hand.
You may say, as was said by the••GiiilitucCl Colonel
) onel be-
hind me, " Well, you are going to call out
but that is not the object." It is- to
.have thecmilitia,
body of men, partly drilled, equipped,and
reane 'ient
ing their duties, and under the: control of . the'', ffi tr o Imre,
know-
in case an emergency arises. These are
which justify the estatitistunenttof a militia as contradis-
tinguithed froth those who justify an increase of the
army. The next suggestion is a large addition to !le
pensioners. We are - told that there are. 63,000
pensioners in-Eagle:ad and Ireland. In England there
are 43,000, but tenet does thet 14oulin think is the a
ge
of those pensioners?, Many ..-of 41'44
—hat% been
disabled by wounds and long service; but out of the whole
43,000 not more than 1,860 are under the age of 40.
(aear.) Over the age of 70 there are no lase than 4,800.
Nor do I think it would be tale to draw these men away,
when you hove an opportunity of calling iu the serviced
of younger and abler men. , .
Mr. RICH rose amidst loud cries of " Order!"
" Chair 1" He was anxious to explain. The proposal
he made referred not to drawing pensioners. from the o d
staff at present in existeueer but thote who would he
withdrawn from the regular army. , .
Mr. WALPOLE—I, shall now procced.to the next
suggestion, the eneoerageusent • . O.. f tine
volunteers.
You could never have en efficient body of volunteers.
The principle of the volunteer system was that any
one or every one of them were at liberty -to go away
from the service. So long as. .entnutiataa and
patriotism, and the sense or itnmediate danger
prevailed, they would be efficient enough ; but the
moment it passes away--eI will not say the moment their
patriotism passes away—the : meensnt the enthusiesta
passes away the necessity of continuing the volunteers
is gone, aid you cannot rely upon- them as en efficient
permanent force. But it is always a
.p Tatar topic that
ot drattiog up n the spirit and enthusiasm of the people.
We all legatbut e upon that;
• remember the words that
were used in the beguntnig t f ihe debate; remember tte
words used by the Duke of Wellington in his important
letter, in which he Lap, " We hear a great deal of the
spirit of the people of England, for which no man has a
higher respect than I have; but unorganiztal, undisci-
/Aimed, without systematic subdrdinatien, established and
well underthood—this spirit, when-exposed to the fire of
muskets and firelocks . and the-- pray of sabres and
bayonets of disciplined troops, would only expose thsen
to confusion and defeat.".—(CheattO "
Now I ge to the
last proposition—namely, ire proposition of the Noble
Lord for carrying his own plan of a local militia.—(er,

; I laugh.) The Noble Lord will forgive MO for tryie .thst I
siethink he has rather highly coloured his owt; lege and
I put cur plan too machin the shade. He wisel3-.4
_. that our
plan is oppreos- ively severe, while his is the contrary—
he- i t s well adapteo to secure men of spirit, courage,
and moral energy, while ours is merely eulculated to h
atilt mercenaries, who would tette the bounty end then
melee their: wny to the .United States. That is the cO-
- the Neble.Lord puts upon it; and I am sorry to
do away atith that imposing statement, but :the tact is•
not I);irnn Out. a careful comparison of tae two inea-
sinw!. - First, with regaed,to the ,bellet., In the Noble.
Lore'e Bill evety isserananst be drawnt by balioatuniess.
there ere a auffieieet number of volunteers. In our plan
the men are not drawn for service' but -are einvited by
means of a bounty; and therefore his plan is More se-
vere. By the. Noble, Lord's plan the men were drawn
from a limited number—in the first year between' the
agsteof'2o and 23 and in each successive year between
-2.0-and 21. By our plata if we get to the ballot, which
we probably never shall require, the men are drawn
• between. the ages of 18 and 35. It requirisi very
little reasonieg to show that the pressure of the ,system
over a smaller space roust be much more severe.— (Maw.)
With regard to the discipline, I must 'say- that I was
Femewhat surprised at the statement made by the Noble
Lord. By his plan the men were to be trained 28 days
ieethe.first year and 14 days every year. By our plan
they were to be drilled 21 days, with a power to extend
tae _time of drill to even weeks in case of eesessity;
and in thiSevent of its not being necessary, or if there.
was en eitra dethand for labour, then only threedays in
the year. • I think- that shelve that our plan is not
So severe. Then, with regard to the courage, energy,
anerspirit of the Noble Lord's militia, sad the reckless,
'vagebond character of ours, I should be glad to know
bow. the Noble Lord by his plan gets his men endowed
veith that high moral courage. He casts lots for them;
and it may fall upon the wt ak as well althe strong, upon
the immoral as well as the moral, and in fact there is no
guarantee that ho can get. these men of high moral cou-
rage. Ido think that the probability is, that by our
plsii the more bold, and independent, and enter-
.
prhaeg men will offer their services, and probably we
shall get a better class of men then those for whom
lots. are cast. But there has been some mistake in
this pin of the measure. It has been said over and over
again in this lime, and outside doors, that here you are
throwing money to 5,000 or 6,000 men, who must be of
the most reckless character, and who will decamp, and
there is no security that we shall have their services
when they are wanted. But those who make the state-
ment cannot have read our Bill. It will be found that the
bounty is given to the volunteers, subject to certain con-
ditions imposed by the Secretary at War. It will be
fund that the names and places of residence of these
men must be regis.ered and transmitted to the clerk of
the peace of the county. The Secretary at War bas the
power Of prescribing the node in which the bounties are
to, be paid, whether beforehand, or annually, or monthly.
All that is left to the discretion of the Executive Go-
vernmi:nt, so that they may not be imposed upon.. I
hope I have disposed of the exception of the Honourable
and Gallant Gentleman that the bounty we are
vffeiiug will be thrown into the hands of men who
will decamp with it; but I think, independently
of this, that it is a great reflection upon the poeple of
this country that 80 000 m, n would be found to accept
the bounty of 41, 51., or 61., for the sake of going away
with it.—(Hear, h,ar.) 'The whole of this line of urgu
went, it is remarkable, has been tned by the representa-
tives of what is called the popular side.—(Loud cheers.)
I do not believe it, nor do I believe that tbey ,believe it
themselves, but they use it as an In-gement against the
Militia Bill. I think I have proved that the Billwf the
Noble, Lord is nor so geed as that which we have brought
forward, and was not so popular as nuts will be with the
country, or as Iff ctive for its purpose. But I do not
epeak without authority. Within the week I have re-
ceived a letter from the adjutant of a militia regiment
in
Suffolk, stating that seventy men had already expressed
their intention to volunteer their services, and he had no
doubt that the regiment would be made up in a fortnight.
--(Cbenrs.) The same statement had been made from
the midland districts; and I believe, it the 811 l be
allowed' to pass into a law, you will find, instead of that
cppressivo ballot which has been so complained of at
public meetings, that there will be no necessity for hav-
ing recourse to it. And here I may remind you that
even if the number is not filled up in the first year, there
is no compulsion to put the ballot in force; hot a per-
missive power p given by the Queen in Council that it I
may be exercised. There is another observation that
has been made. It has been said that this is not the
time to bring the measure forward. But what would
have been said if we had not brought it forward and any
misfortune had befallen the country?--(Hear.) You
had passed a resolution that a Bill should be brought in;
and If we had not brought in the Bill, and war had been
declared by any possible contingency, you would have
teamed us justly, and have said that, as Ministers, we
deserved to be impeached.—(Hear, hear.) You have no
right, therefore, to complain of the Bill being brought
in.—(Hesr, hear.) Sir, Ido not say that if you reject
the bill coo until; to put the militia laws into operatioie
by means in which the ballot would be resorted to with
all its rigour—(Hear)—but I do say that if the emer-
gency arose in which there would be necessity to have
recourse to that force, you would be bound—any Go-
Government would be bound—to suspend the suspend.

ing law relating to the militia, and to put it in force,
to obtain a sufficient number of men to defend the
country.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, do not say that
this is an oppressive measure.—(Hear, hear.) It is a
measure mnig itiog the law.—(Hear.) The language
of mitigation was thought of from the first section
to the last.—(Hear, hear.) I defy you to find a
single severe clause in it I—(Hear, hear.) If that be
so, I leave the measure with some degree of confidence
to the judgment of the House and of the country—(Hear,
hear,) I think I have shown you that it was necessary
to make some increase of our national defences, and
that the other modes which have been suggested are not
so good as that we have proposed.—(Hear' hear.)
I am confident you will find if you reject it, and there
shall be occasion of urgency, you would have to put the
militia laws in force with all the rigour of the ballot.—
(dear, hear.) But if you accept it now—improve it if
you please in the Committee—yon are alleviating and
mitigating the rigour of the laws, instead of enforcing
awn, on the people, bt °Luse you aro by your regulation
proceeding upon the principle of voluntary enlistment
end voluntary service, instead of hating recourse to the
compulsory conscription, to which in some circumstances
you might be otherwise compelled to have recourse.
Sir DE LACY EVANS rose, but was not allowed to
reply
A division took place. and the numbers were—
For the second reading 315
For the amendtn.nt 165
Majority for the second reading —Be
The announcement was received with loud eheer.
SECRETARY OF BANKRUPTS' OFFICE
ABOLITION BILL.
This Bill passed through Commiree
LOAN SOCIETIES BILL, -
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
HIGHWAY RATES BILL.
This Bill wee read a second time.
REFRESHMENT TO VOTERS.
Sir E. 13UX CON moved for leave to Meg in a Bill
to allow candidates to give refreshment to voters at
county elections to a limited amount.
Er. THORNELY opposed the motion on the ground
that such a permission would not be legitimately
exercised
Sir J. TYRELL said, to his own certain know-
ledge, there were two lawyers canvassing in Essex
upon the strength of this Bill.—(Laughter.) He thought
it would have been much better for the Hon. Gcutle-
man to have postponed this measure until they had the
experience of the approaching election.
Mr. ADDERLEY supported the motion for leave to
bring in this Bill, because he thought it was a measure
most necessary to have passed before the approaching
election, with the view of drawing a legal distinction
between reasonable refreshment and bribery.
Mr. AGLJONBY said he was determined to give
every stage of this measure the utmost opposition, for
be believed, if carried, it would have a meet demoralis-
ing effect upon the constituencies,
Mr. CHRISTOPHER said that it was most desirable
for Hon. ,Menabers to wait until they saw the Bill before
they. discussed it.. It was tint fair that they should place
the electors in a worse position when they came to vote
then they were in when they. were at home. The trea-
sure was one, be *believed, that merely proposed to give
the electors. at county elections simple refreshment
when they travelled some distance to the poll.
Sir B. BUXTON said that the Bill merely proposed
that the voters at county elections should receive re-
freshment within the value of 2s. 6J.
The IVI&STER of the ROLLS declared his decided
opposition teethe measure, which he thought was calcu-
lated to encourage a system of bribery, under the disguise
of what was called reasonable refreshment.
Lord GALWAY was understood to say that the
measure, if passed at all, ought not to be confined to
counties.
Sir B. HALL opposed proceeded with such a discus-
sion at that advanced hour of the night, and moved an
adjournment of the debate.
Mr..ANSTEY was opposed to the principle of the
measure, which would encourage the worst practices at
elections.
Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped the motion for adjour;
ment would not be pressed to a division, seeing
atvne
when the debate came ou again, they would oalyhwhichs
repetition of speeches upon the provisions of a Bill
lion. Gentlemen had not seen. It was the opinion of
iny Hon. Members whom he had conceitera:d upon the
subject that some each measure as this would be most
effective in suppressing corruption at elections.
Riding
re-
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that in the Westaßt
tdhie
eec.
freshment tickets had been issued to L
lions by tho consent of both parties.
debate
at Pave would he
trusted the
debate would not b© adjourned, bat tb
given to bring in the Bill, so that.Llhoann•4l
and be better
.crabers might
shortly have a copy of it in their •
enabled to form an opinion of its details.
Mr. MULLINGS contended that theedissusr
anofdruefgrerseha-t
ment tickets would be a saving of !xP
elections.
He
• preventive of treating and corruption I
should vote for the introductio
Mr. BELL—It' treating d was to be permitt« dat elec-
tions at all it bad better be -one openly than sneakingly.
So far from increasing, he believed the 13111 would check
corruption At auctions.
The motion fur the adjournment . of the debate was
then withdrawn, and the House divided on the question
that leave be given to bring in the Bill, when there tip-
. gearedr--
... 58
For the motion ...
Against it ... •.• -• ..„ 19
Majority ••• —39
The Bill was subeeqaently brought
Mr. MULLINGS moved that the petition at the se.
Diary of attorney e, solicitors, proc.,urs, end ;
poratecl by chdrters
of King William the 'Fourth and
Queen Victoria (presented 23), be ,printed viitih
the votes.