The Sun.
London, England, 1864-02-26 00:00:00

POLAND.

Mr. HENNESSY then rose to put a question to the
noble lord at the head of the Government on a subject he
had before brought under the notic3 of the house. It seemed
that a despatch was sent to Prince Gortschakoff, containing
something similar to the declaration made by the noble earl
at the head of Foreign Affairs in his speech of Blairgowrie,
and that that despatch had been subsequently officially
transmitted to Prince Gortschakoff. The question he had
to ask was, had that despatch been sent to any other Minis-
ters in Europe, especially had it been sent to Lord Bloom-
field, and then communicated in its complete form to Count
Rechberg ? He wished to know whether, assuming that he
was right in stating that the despatch had been so commu-
nicated to Count Rechberg, the house was entitled to receive
it. It was very unusual for a Minister of State in sending
a despatch to one Government to send a copy of it to other
Governments. But Lord Russell in his Polish policy chose
to take that course, and consentaneously sent to three other
Governments the despatch which was placed in the hands
of Prince Gortschakoff. The despatch coming to Count
Rechberg, arrived by telegraph at St. Petersburg before the
official despatch, and Herr von Bismark attached so much
importance to it that he was inclined to think it would
make a cams belli. He should like to know whether there
had been any correspondence between the Prussian Govern-
ment and our Government, with respect to this altered de-
spatch, and, if so, whether Herr von Bismark's despatches
would be given in full to the house. His question to the
noble lord was, whether the despatch was to be found in its
complete form in the portfolios of any of the Foreign
Ministers ; and, secondly, whether the Prussian Govern-
ment had entered into any correspondence on the subject
with the English Government, and, if so, whether the noble
lord would produce it.
Lord PALMERSTON—I am afraid I can only repeat
what I stated on a former occasion,namely, that her Majesty's
Government are responsible to this house to give every infor-
mation as to any communications which may take place
with foreign Governments with respect to our foreign policy,
but it is not our duty to state to this house what change may
have been made or intended to be made from time to time,
before or after a despatch may have been comumnicated to
any of our Ministers abroad. I believe that the despatch
which was communicated officially to Prince Gortschakoff
has been laid on the table.
Mr. HENNESSY—As altered ?
Lord PALMERSTON—And that is the despatch by
which we abide.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
The house then went into committee on the navy esti.
mates, Mr. Massey in the chair.

Lord C. PAGET, in rising to move the navy estimates,
said—l wish to express my regret that I had not an oppor-
tunity of answering the observations of the hon. baronet;
and it was only because I thought that his motion was post-
poned that I moved the Speaker to leave the chair ; and,
without intending any disrespect to him with regard to the
interesting remarks which were made by the hon, baronet,
I can only say it is the great desire of her Majesty's Govern-
ment that the navyshould be maintained in a manner worthy

the dignity of the country; and I think it will be seen that
exertions have been made from year to year to ace omplish
this object. It was well said by a gallant officer on this
side that we might go too fast; while the hon. baronet op-
posite said we went too slow; but I think I can show that
we have preserved the mean between the two. Before I
address myself to the estimates I will allude to some altera-
tions iu the form of them, arising our of the recommenda-
tions of the committee on public accounts. At page 3 the
net cost of the navy will be found, after deducting from
the gross eatimates the annual repayments. For the
year 1862-3 these repayments amounted to £297,000 odd ;
for the present year the amount is £273,000 ; and for
next year, 1861-5, which is only a mere estimate, i is given
as £263,00.1 odd. So that the public can now know the net
coat of the navy; and that generally the net cost is about a
quarter of a million less than that presented to Parliament.
There is another alteration, and this is the farm of vote No.
2. That vote has been remodelled this year, also on the re-
commendation of the same committee. If lion. members
will turn to page 105 in the appendix, they will find the vote
in its old form, and will thus be able to compare item by
item the vote of last year with the present. The alteration
is in order that the estimates may be given in the same form
as in the annual detailed account, I will now turn to the
estimates themselves, For the year 1864-5 they amounted
to £10,432,610; last year the amount was £10,736,032,
being a reduction of £303,422 for the coming
year, irrespective of other matters to which ,I
shall have to advert. The way this reduction
has been brought about is in the reduction of the personnel
of the navy and in the materiel of the navy, qualified by a
considerable increase for workmanship and wages in the
dockyards, There is also a small increase in the vote for
public works, and a considerable increase, I am sorry to say,
in the army vote, owing to the unhappy state of affairs in
New Zealand and China. I will first take the personnel,
and group together votes No. 1, referring to pay, No. 2, re-
ferring to victuals, and No. 12, relating to medicines, &c.
'We propose this year a reduction of .500 seamen in the fleet.
1,500 coastguard men, and 2,000 boys—that is to say, we
propose to take together 71,950 men and boys, against 76,000
in the present year. The marines remain at 18,000 men.
There is a small reduction of 50 civilians connected with the
coastguard—old men, who are being gradually superan-
nuated, making the total reduction 4,050 men and boys. I
am quite aware that some hon. members are alarmed at
these reductions, and I am not at all prepared to say, look-
ing at the state of affairs, that it would be at all advisable
for this country to retrograde in her naval defences ; but so
far from our naval forces retrograding, I think I can show
they are making progress, notwithstanding these reductions.
There has been no reduction, in point of fact, as in page 101
will be seen the number of men maintained during every
month last year, and the reduction has been gradually going
on for several months. I will read to the committee a state-
ment which will show that the fears of the hon. baronet op-
posite are unfounded. On the Ist of February last year we
had 11 line-of-battle ships in commission; on the Ist of
February this year we had 10 line-of-battle ships. Last
year we had 4 armour-plated ships; on the Ist of February
this year we had 7 armour-plated ships. Last year we had
41 frigates ; this year we have 42 frigates. Last year we had
93 sloops and gun- vessels : this year we have 99. Making
a total of 153 sea-going ships this year, against 154 last year
—only a small increase in number, but a great increase
in power by the armour-plated ships. We have, besides,
that a vast number of steam ships, station ships, floating
batteries, store ships, coastguard ships, troop ships, and
gunboats, the whole fleet amounting to 243, against 236 last
year. I think I may state that as a proof we have not re-
duced our fleet to the extent supposed. Then how have we
been able to reduce our men ? One reason is, we employ
armour-plated ships in lieu of line-of-battle ships. There is
another reason, and it is very interesting because it shows
what a great change is coming over the navy. In former
days no captain of a ship was allowed, except under most
urgent circumstances, to discharge an objectionable man.
was supposed that, if officers were allowed to discharge
objectionable men, a premium was put on bad conduct,
arai that the ships would be unmanageable. It is
very difficult to get rid of a bad man ; he
must be flogged over and over again ; but the
Admiralty has discovered it to be the best policy
to allow the captain to get rid of objectionable men, and
under that arrangement there has been going on a process
of weeding the fleet, which has been of immense advantage
' to the navy. We ware enabled to do this because the service
is opulent ; and that will account for the decrease of 1,500
men. The committee will expect me to give some explana •
tion upon the reduction of the boys. (Hear, hear.) It is
within the last three or four Sears I came down to ask for
an increase of the number of boys, who are the nursery of
the Royal navy ; yet we propose this year to reduce the
number by 2,000. On the one hand, the officers complain
that these boys do not make good servants, and they have
asked the Admiralty to give them proper servants, the same
as were retained by officers in the army. That was a griev-
ance, and was one that was perfectly just. On the other
hand, the second-class boys who come into the navy dislike,
as a rule, to do the duty of servants ; they wished to learn
their nautical dutio, and find that waiting at a table is very