The Sun.
London, England, 1864-03-11 00:00:00

appoint Henry Carleton Thomas, now serving as a tempo-
rary clerk in Portsmouth Dockyard after 8 years' service in
the same capacity at Malta, to a permanent clerk Asp on the
establishment at home; and asked the Secre'ary to the
Admiralty whether the case might be reconsidered.
FRENCH ARTILLERY.
Mr. DAMER asked whether there had been any trial in
this country of the French breech-loading cannon, firing
301bs spherical shot and 601bs cylindrical shell, which have,
by French accounts, answered so well, piercing 41 inches of
iron at 1,000 yards.
MINISTERIAL REPLIES.
Lord C. PAGET, in reply to the last speaker, said that
there had been no trials in this country of the French gun
to which he alluded, and it was much up to doubt whether
the gun was so powerful as had been stated. In answer to
the right hon. gentleman the member for Droitwich (Sir
J. Pakington) he had to state that Mr. Thomas was tem-
porarily, and not continuously, employed in the High Court
of Admiralty at Malta. The Duke of Somerset was anxious
that he should be placed upon the establishment,and allowed
him to be examined by the Civil Service Commission. He
failed, however, in the test qualification, and,under these cir-
cumstances, the Duke of Somerset had no alternative but to
reject his application for a permanent clerkship. His grace
would have been glad if the rules had allowed him to place
Mr. Thomas on the establishment. As to the eamplainta
raised by the hon. member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphin-
stone),'respecting the sending out of the gunboat Lively, the
case was simply this—There was a fearful gale in the North
Sea; a larganuraber of trawling-boats were missing, and every
urgent application was made to the Admiralty to send a
vessel to save the lives of the crews, The only vessels then
in readiness were the Medusa, a fair-sized paddle-steamer
and two gunboats. The application proceeded from the cor-
poration of Hull, and he believed some other borough in the
north ; and what, he would ask, would hon. members have
said if the Admiralty had refused to send the ships ? Well,
the ships were sent out, and the gunboat Lively, when near
the coast of Holland, was caught in a severe gale, which
carried away her foremast, and she was lost. The sending
out of these vessels had been brought forward as a grave
accusation against the Admiralty ; but he need only say that
the step was taken at the desire of the Duke of Somerset,
who was willing to accept the whole responsibility of it. He
need not allude particularly to the circumstance which in-
duced the Admiralty to require the services of the Prince
Consort. Reports were in circulation that certain vessels in
the Mersey were about to put to sea, and the Prince Con-
sort was sent to prevent their doing so. Unfortunately, the
moment she left Devonport there came on a gale, and, in
running up the Irish Channel, she was met by one of the
heaviest gales which had occurred for many years. The
vessel rolled; but that was a peculiarity of armour-ships.
In the Race of Holyhead she shipped a good deal of water,
and the officers were afraid to put into Holyhead. By this
time the water was over the engine-room floor, and the cap-
tain, finding he could not bear up for Holyhead, ran for
Dublin. For a certain time the vessel lay to and did not take
in a drop water, but when she was again forced against the
sea she again shipped a great deal, and when they arrived
at Dublin they were extremely glad to get their anchors
down. Now, in armour ships they did not like to make holes
in the armour plates, and consequently the scuppers were
nct of the ordinary kind, and the consequence was there was
no free exit for the water. In fact, it was an experiment,
which failed. When the vessel returned he examined her
himself, and it was plain there had been no strain, as was
in the first instance conjectured, and literally the damage
done to the vessel in the gale was under £l,OOO. She was
afterwards put into dock, and a considerable sum of money
was expended upon her, which, however, had nothing
whatever to do with the accident, but had reference to the
prevention of galvanic action between the copper bottom
and the armour plating. As to the question put by the hon.
member for Bristol (Mr, H. Berkeley), it would lead the
house to believe that for some time past the Americans had
armed their ships more efficiently than we had. The hon.
gentleman, however, was entirely mistaken, for we had had
for a great number of years past shells for every kind of
broadside gun in our navy. In that respect we had not
been behind the Americans, although they certainly had
placed mote yeliance than we did on guns adapted for shells
only. The Americans attached great importance to what
they call "smashing effects"—(a laugh)—and did not attri-
bute great importance to a very high initial velocity. We,
on the contrary, had always attached great importance to
guns of great range. On introducing the navy estimates, he
had stated that the Admiralty were not satisfied with the
100. pounder Armstrong gun, but let it not be supposed that
they condemned it en tote. In the attack on Kagosima a
100-pounder was used on board the flag-ship, and the com-
plaints were that the vent-pieces blew out ; and, what was
worse, in one instance the vent-piece jammed, and conse-
quently the gun was rendered nor* de combat. But, at the
same time, it was stated that the precision of these guns
and the precision of the bursting of the shells was some-
thing marvellous. On board some of the ships, however,
they did not report so favourably. After carefully reading
the whole of the reports, he felt disposed to admit that
there were great defects in the guns, though he could not
conceal from himself that they also possessed great merits.
However, under the circumstances, not being satisfied
with the position of matters, the Duke of Somerset ap•
plied to Lord Herb.:rt for a good and simple smooth-bore
gun for the use of the navy. He proposed that the gun
should be limited to 61 tons, as the Admiralty considered
that that was the limit which a seagoing ship should carry
as a broadside. In reply, the War Office told them they
could give the navy a 9-inch gun, smooth-bore, carrying
spherical shot weighing 110 pounds. No doubt they were
satisfied with that gun for a time, for it pierced 51-inch
plates; and accordingly a requisition was made to the War
Office for a supply of them, in order to arm the navy. Still,
not being ultimately satisfied, they decided upon arming the
Minotaur and Bellerophon experimentally with 300-poun-
ders, weighing 12 tons, and carrying spherical shot of 150
pounds. Honourable gentlemen might say that Parrott's
and Brook's guns were both superior to those adopted by
the Admiralty. Well, he was not prepared to say whether
they were or not. As regarded America, his honest
opinion was that neither country could say which had had
the best of it in the matter of guns ; but, as regarded France,
his belief was that they were more advanced than France.
However, with respect to America, they had been enabled
to send out a very intelligent officer, who would be afforded
the opportunity of looking through their factories, and
ascertaining what gun they preferred. At the same time,
notwithstanding all that had been said out of doors, he very
much doubted whether any country was more advanced
than they were in the matter of their artillery.
General PEEL could not admit that the War Department
should be made responsible for the arming of the navy.; it
was for the navy to decide for themselves what was the best
gun to be adopted. He declared the 12 -pounder Armstrong
to be the best field gun in the world, and that the 40-poun-
der Armstrongs were equally satisfactory. He, however,
blamed the War Department for having ordered so many
as 500 of the 110-pounders, without sufficient inquiry as to
the value of the gun.
Lord LOVAINE, reverting to the case of Mr. Thomas,
complained that it was very hard that that gentleman's
promotion should have been interfered with, after a
continuous service of eight years in one department.
Sir F. BARING argued that when a temporary clerk had
been employed in a department for a number of years, and
his superiors reported satisfactorily of him, he ought not to
be subjected to any further test in order to entitle him to
promotion. (Hear, hear.) After all, the proof of the pud-
ding was in the eating.
Sir F. SMITH, having been a member of the ordnance
select committee, could state that the committee had not
been able to get guns from Mr. Whitworth wherewith to
make the necessary experiments. He also declared that the
Armstrong guns had not produced the effects hoped for, and
they had no guns of a large calibre on which they could rely.
He thought the 110-pounders might prove a very useful
gun if they could be made sufficiently safe.
THE ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
In reply to Mr. H. SEYMOUR,
Sir G. GREY said the Government had no hopes of being
able to introduce a measure for the reform of the ecclesias-
tical courts during the present session ; but the Lord Chan-
cellor did hope to bring in a bill for the reform of the
registries.
The house then went into committee of supply on the
NAVY ESTIMATES.
The first vote was for a sum of £1,275,316, to defray the
wages of artificers in her Majesty's establishments at home,
The vote was put and passed sub sikntia. However,
On the next vote, which was for a sum of £69,205, to de-
fray the wages of artificers abroad,
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY rose, and complained that the
last vote had been put without almost any one being aware of
it, and that the civil lord (Mr. Stanafeld) had not made his
promised statement accounting for the increase in the vote.
11r. LINDSAY moved that the chairman report pro-
gress, as the vote had been taken without the fulfilment
of the distinct pledge given by the Government that full
explanations would be previously made.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE seconded the amendment.
Mr. MASSEY said he had put the vote ire the usual way.
Unless it was desirous to move the reduction of the vote, it
would be competent for the civil lord to make whatever ex-
planations were necessary upon the amendment now before
the committee.
Sir J. PAKINGTON did not attribute any blame to the
chairman, but was surprised at the rapidity with which that
vote had been placed in his hands. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER regretted
that a miscarriage had occurred, and suggested that the vet •
should be recommitted on a future evening, and considered
in the usual way.
Mr. BRIGHT—This is not what has been called a mis-
carriage. It seems to me to have very much the appearance
of a trick. (Hear, hear,) Ido not know who is guilty of
it, but 1 do not think the hon member for Halifax would, on
his own mere notion, have taken the course which has been
taken. My hon. friend and I were in our places, and yet
this million of money was slipped through without our
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be some difficulty, I do not think the proper way will be to
report progress, and take the discussion of the vote on a
future evening. The last thing a Government should do is
to take advantage of the house on a question of money and
a vote of this kind. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words with Mr, WILLIAMS,