The Sun.
London, England, 1864-06-15 00:00:00

MORTGAGE DEBENTURES BILL.

The report of amendments was brought up.
The Earl of MALNIESBCP,Y moved the addition of a
clause to enable trustees of landed property to invest the
trust funds in the debentures of the proposed companies.

Lord REDESDALE opposed the clause.
A division was called for and partly proceeded with, but
The Earl of MALMESBURY, amidst much laughter,
withdrew the clause, and
The report was read.
The Union Assessment Act Amendment Bill, with some
amendments, passed through committee.

The Ecclesiastical Courts and Registries (Ireland) Bill
passed through committee.

The report of the Public Schools Bill was brought up
and read.

The report of the Scottish Episcopal Clergy Disabilities
Removal Bill was brought up and agreed to.
The Court of Justiciary (Scotland) Bill was read a third
time and passed.
Their lordships then adjourned,

HOUSE OF COMMONS---Yesterday.
The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock.
FACTORIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr BRUCE moved the second reading of this bill. lle
said that between 17,000 and 13,000 children were em-
ployed in the trades with which it was proposed to deal.
The hon. member for Devonport (Mr Ferrand) had stated
that the bill would affect 10,000 persons, but he thought he
should be able to show the hon. member that that was
a mistake, although no doubt the numbers would be in-
creased by the extensions it was proposed to adopt. Ho
Explained the principle on which the bill would act with re-
gard to the ages at which children might be employed, and
met many of the objections which had been urged against
Government. He also read lengthened extracts from the
reports of eminent physicians showing the deterioration of
potters and others from overwork, and the nature of the
work in which they were engaged. The seeds of the disease
were sown in the children, whose labour was far too severe,
It had been urged that the Government ought to have pro-
ceeded under the Mines Inspection Act, which prohibited
children under 12 years of age from being employed. That
would be a very good arrangement if they could secure

children, between 8 and 12, being sent to school, ( L'he
right honourable gentleman read returns to show that
it was not the case). Another objection whirl had been
urged was that under the bi:l they would not be able
to obtain a sufficient number of children to cars), on
the work of manufactures ; but it mast be re•
membered these men were employers of boys themselves,
and it was likely that they would not treat them so
humanely as the employers. He had conclusive evidence
that many of the men neglected their work at the
beginning of the week, and, consequently, at the end of
the week they were obliged to employ boys to make up
their lost tirne,thus rendering the employment of boys larger
than it would otherwise be. Another argument was that the
trades in which children were employed were so numerous
and detached that it would be impossible to enforce the
law. That argument had been used with regard to the
cotton districts, but it had not been found to
be of any use. The right hon. gentleman then
explained how the bill would apply to the lucifer match
trade in which children were employed from six in
the morning till ten at night, being the poorest of the
poor and worst educated of any cllss. From working
in ill ventilated rooms they suffered from most loathsome
disease of the jaws. He also explained the nature of the
percussion cap trade, and other trades to which the bill
would apply.
Mr CR UM•EIVING considered that the bill would
remedy many defects in the existing Factory Acts, and
he hailed its introduction with great satisfaction.

Lord INGESTRE said he did not intend to oppose the
second reading of the bill, but when it was read a se-
cond time he should move that it be referred to a select
committee. He was so anxious that legislation should
take place that he put his opposition, if he might use such
a term, in the mildest form. It was only tc some portions of
the bill which the right hon. gentleman proposed that he
had any objections at d.ll. To the half time system he had a
great objection as being inapplicable to the potteries.
Mr. H. GRENFELL agreed with Lord Ingestre that
the Bill should be referred to a select committee.
Mr WATKIN, in oppoaing the bill, said that the reports
on which the measure was fonnded wer® not correct, as
they were greatly exagger.ated. In support of this state,
ment he cited the authority of an eminent medical man to
works were
show that in certain districts where pottery
being carried on scrofulous diseases were not as rife as they
had been represented. His statement was founded apen
practical knowledge cf the condition of the claw, Whose
interests were involved in this bill, but he wished it to be
understood that the manufacturers, whose views he repre-
sented, were disposed to give effect to any legislative
enactment on the subject that was calculated to remedy en
evil.

Mr ADDERLEY objected to the bill; as introducing a
system that from its expense was opposed to the feelings
of the community at large, as leading to a system of Go-
vernment inspection, than which nothing could be mere
unpopular in this country. He contended that the mode
in which it was proposed to deal with the subject was a
slovenly form of legislating.

After some further discussion the bill was read a second
time.

The house then adjourned, but resumed sitting at six
o'clock.

THE INCOME-TAX.

Mr HUBBARD called attention to the operation and
extent of the direct and indirect taxation now levied, with
especial reference to the Income-tax and to the prospect of
its continuance. After some remarks upon the unpopu-
larity of our taxation, owing, he said, to its want of system
and of justice, he read a statement of the main heads of the
taxation, indirect and direct, and the produce of each. He
compared the advantages and disadvantages of the two
kinds. Many evident advantages were on the side cf in-
direct taxes, but they had some imperfections. On the
other hand, direct taxation had its limits. Assuming that
the Income and Property Tax could not be dispensed with,
this great fiiical engine, he observed, must be managed
truthfully, and he proceeded to reproduce and discuss the
principles of the 0 cheme he had proposed last session, reply-
ing to the objections offered to it by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. He pointed the unjust principles upon which
the existing tax was constructed, and dwelt upon the moral
evils engendered by it, mentioning examples of its demoral-
izing
effects. He was was of opinion that an Income tax
equitably devised would be acceptedrlZthihteiZrZiithe
concluded by moving the following
he
inequalities and injustice attending the operation of the
existing Property and Income Tax dieq.nality it for being
continuously reimpo• ed in its present ,form as one of the
means of levying the national revenue."
Mr WHALLEY supported the motion, contending that
the necessary effect of the Income-tax was to demoralize the
trade of the country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
hat, looking at the state of the house (which had just been
counted), it would appear that it was not desirous that the
motion should be adopted, or that it should undergo a de•
tailed discussion, After noticing the discord between the

views and principles of Mr Hubbard and Mr Whalley,
ho remarked that the plan of the former had not only
never been in operation, but had neve: obtained
the acceptance of any Ministry. His own ob-
jection to it was that it did not propose to get rid of any of
the anomalies of the existing tax, but to displace the present
system and introduce a scheme that had recommended itself
to his mind, but which was totally novel. Mr Hubbard
i had obtained a committee last session on the subject of his
scheme, the judgment of which was adverse to him, and
he had now varied the form of his motion ; but he thought
that the house, recognizing the ill effects of an abstract
resolution, would not be disposed to adopt it. True, them.,
ware great inequalities in the operation of the income-,ax,
but let not the house pass this resolution without having
before it some practical scheme.
Mr BOVILL supported the motion. He denied that this
was a mere abstract resolution. It de:dared the injustice
and inequality of the present form ',A the tax; and should
not an attempt be made to renie,ay them and check the en-
couragement now given to unfair returns ? The Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer did not propose any remedy or suggest
any plan; he asked tile house simply to reject this motion.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE observed that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer ?Lid not ask the house to adopt the income-
tax as a part of the permanent taxation of the country ; if
he did, a motion of this kind might properly be made. The
house ha.a had opportunities of considering this subject,
and propositions made for altering the system had never
rnet with its acceptance. The house should not commit
itself by condemning a tax in an abstract resolution.
After a few words from Mr HUBBIRD in reply, the
motion was negatived upon a division by 67 to 28,
NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Sir H. CAIRNS moved a resolution, "That the rules
, sanctioned by the Commissioners of National Education
in Ireland on the 21st day of November, 1863, are so
far as regards their operation on the aid afforded to convent
and monastic schools, at variance with the principles of
the system of national education." The question, he ob-
served, was one the importance of which could not be over-
stated, the annual grant paid from the public purse amount-
ing to £315,000, and the number of children being 600,000,
and the rules referred to had been condemned by some of
the warmest friends of the system as fundamental changes
in its principles, quite irrespective of religious denomina-
tion. The model schools, which were intended to provide
teachers, had been an object of hostility to the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy, who at the same time had made a demand for
separate training for Roman Catholic teachers. The Board
of Education had nominally refused this grant, but in sulg-
stane,.: they had granted it ; ana the consequence of this
was that if such a concession was made to oue denomina-
tion it must be made to all, and this must lead to separate
education. He proceeded to narrate the proceedings of the
Board with relation to the convent schools, and he read a
description of these schools in a report by Mr Sheridan, a
head inspector (a Roman Catholic), which he thought
should have called for a different kind of action from the
Board. Under the pressure of the Roman clergy, how-
ever, the Board, he contended, had violated the original
rules in regard to the convent schools, and by the rules of
November the Commissioners had departed from the prin-
ciples of the national system, and sanctioned a separate
training establishment paid by the State, the amount given
to the convent schools being withdrawn from the model
schools. The Board had offered a defence of the rules
which he insisted was no justification, but was contra-
dictory and inconsistent with facts; and in their reply
to a letter of Sir R. Peel, complaining of the changes
made by them in the fundamental rules of the sys-
tem, the Commissioners claimed an uncontrolled power over
the public grant. If the house, he said in conclusion, de-
sired to maintain the system of national education in Ire-
land, he called upcn it then to show the Commissioners
that the course they had pursued was not app.-oved by the
house.

The motion was seconded by Mr DAWSON, whogiwould
prefer to the present Board three paid Commissioners.
Mr O'HAGAN, as one of the Commissioners assailed by
Sir 11. Cairns, replied to charges against them which he
declared he knew to be utterly unfounded. The real object
of the accusation was, he said, not the rules of the Board,
but to destroy a great institution and substitute a board of
paid commissioners. He would demonstrate that there had
been no fundamental change in the rules of the Board, or
any change that in any degree conflicted with the principles
of the Board or was at variance with their established prac-
tice. He proceeded to justify the acts of the Commissioners
from au early period in regard to convent schools, which
were known to be in connection with the Board in 1854.
The principle of the Board, which had adapted itself to the
peculiar circumstances of Ireland, without any departure
from the great principle of religious freedom, was to esta-
blish rules and regulations of such a character that there
should be no possibility of proselytism and no interference
with the religion of children. He read testimonies to the
character of the convent schools, and though he admitted
that the report of Mr Sheridan was not favourable to
them, he was encountered by a whole host of other in-
spectors. The model schools were not the sole establish-
ments for the training of teachers; the monitorial system
had been in operation 20 years, and was changed year after
year, and nobody supposed that these were fundamental
changes in the principles of the Board, nor was there
any pretence for such an allegation. As to the model
schools being training establishments for teachers, there
was no authority for this assertion. This was not contem-
plated ; they were intended, as the very name indicated, to
be models for other schools, not for training teachers. Upon
the whole, he contended that, whatever might be the real
object of the motion, the argument in support of it had
failed.

Mr WHITESIDE referred to the Au:nber of protests
(including that of Sir R. Peel) against what he termed an
act of arbitrary power, which had been justified by Mr
O'Hagan. He disputed the theory as to the model schools
propounded by Mr O'Hagan, and complained that these
scho,:ls were in process of destruction by the denunciation
of the Roman Catholic children to be withdrawn and trans-
ferred to the convent schools. He indicated what appeared
to him to be the aim and the effect of these conventual
establishments, and appealed to evidence of their state and
cotdition. The true object of the Romish Church in Ire-
land was, he observed, to effect a complete separation be-
tween Roman Catholics and Protestants.
The debate was then adjourned.
The remaining business having been disposed of, the
house adjourned at twenty minuies to two o'clock.