The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-17 00:00:00

TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17, 1852

efficiency was. He hoped gentlemen had matured a plan for
manning the navy. The present Bill gave them a good op-
portunity of cousi,Tering the saject. Tl:e reason why he
had no: brought r)rward a measure on the subject last ses-
sion w:-.s bee..iusQ the Hon:;e was so much occupied with the
nurcantile marine measure.

Sir F. BARING thought he should be, able on an enrly
day to bring in a measure on the subject, and hoped the Hon.
and Gallant Member would therefore postpone any motion
with regard to it.

Mr. S. HERBERT bore testimony to the fact stated by
the. Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, that the opinion
which he had expressed to-night on the subject of the
militia was no new opinion,
for when he (Mr. Herbert) held
the office of Secretary of
War the Noble Lord frequently
questioned him on the subject. Those questions had not
been without effect, for the late Government became so fully
persuaded of the necessity of taking some steps in the mat-
ter, that at the desire of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Ripon, then Secretary for the Home Department, and of
the late Sir Robert Peel, he (Mr. Herbert) drew
up a Bill for the revising of the militia laws, with the view
of bringing the subject before Parliament. He was glad the
Government had taken the matter in hand. It was most
impolitic and ve.y uneconomical to place the country in au
alternate state of panic and economy. He quite agreed with
the Hon. Gentleman that the military service of the country
should beorganised, so that the greatest efficiency should bo
had fur the money expended. In a country like this, and
with the prejudices and feelings that existed on the subject,
t was impossible to have a standing' army
so large as might
be necessary. Recourse, therefore, must be had to some
method by which the services of large masses might be ob-
tained without the necessity of maintaining them all the
year round. It appeared to him that some inconvenience
might arise from the Government having dealt with the
local rather than with the general militia. The local
militia differed from the general militia in many points, but
the distinguishing point between them was, that the local
could not be moved out of their counties except in cases
of invasion or, of an apprehension of invasion. There
appeared to him, therefore, this objection, that ex-
actly at the time when invasion was apprehended, and
when negociations were most critical and delicate, it might
be wished to move troops down to the coast, which, if done,
would look very like a declaration of war. If the militia
were embodied on the principle of the regular militia, that
need not be done, but as the proposal stood, it would in a
case of emergency tend to the inconvenience he had pointed
out. He certainly regretted to hear the Right Hon. Gentle-
man state that the Government were willing to refer the
subject to a Select Committee. He thought the question
was one which the Government ought to deal with on their
own responsibility, and must protest against making the
House of Commons, instead of the Ministry, responsible for
the measnre.—( Hear.)
Sir G. GREY said that the essential distinction between
the local militia and the general militia was that the one was
offensive and the other defensive. All that they sought to do
by this proposal was to provide for the defence of the country
against invasion. During the last war the regular militia
was established in order to leave every soldier free, not for
the purposes of internal defence, but for carrying on a war
on the Continent; and it was well known to all that that
militia did duty in the United Kingdom and in Ireland as
soldiers, and was also available as a means of recruit-
ing the regular army. But the present measure was pro-
posed with no such intention. No foreign war was anti-
cipated in which this country must take a part. If such a
case should recur Parliament would be called upon to take
the means necessary to maintain the honour and interests of
the country. All that they had at present in view was to
provide a defence against fbreign invasion, and the local
militia appeared to be a force suitable for that purpose.
The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the calling
out the local militia might .endanger negociations and lead
to war.
Mr. S. HERBERT—The moving of them down to the
coast from one county to another.
complain, because it
Sir G. GREY asked if the moving of the regular militia
any
yt
country.
the Right Hon.
would not have the same effect? The object the Govern-
ment had in view was purely defensive, and was one of
couldwhLi cohr dnnoPot
Baronet as to a matter of fact. The Right Hon. Baronet
stated that towards the end of last year the regular militia
Ab Le foreignAu isre used
nationtsTo s aggressively cius hl d e d j
to
o againststicyo
correct
did all the military duty within the kingdom, and enabled
the Government to send all the regular troops abroad. Now,
the fact was that in January, 1814, there were of regular
militia in the United Kingdom 82,000, and of regular
troops 55,000. All the regular troops, therefore, were not
sent abroad.
Sir G. GREY did not intend to assert that every soldier
had been sent abroad at the period referred to ; but it was
evident that if they had not had the 82,000 regular militia
they must have had as many soldiers to supply their places.
Mr. K. SEYMER hoped the Noble Lord would adopt the
suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Wilts, and not refer so important a matter as the proposal
to a Select Committee. He differed entirely from the Hon.
Member for the West Riding as to the feeling of the people
of England on the subject. He did not allude to the opinions
of that portion of them who were members of peace societies,
or to their platform orators; but to the great bulk of the
people.
Mr. OSBORNE felt the inconvenience of discussing a
measure not actually before them. He should not have
presumed to offer a remark at this stage of the measure if
he bad not felt it necessary to express his dissent from
some observations made by an Hon. Member for whom he
had a great respect, and with whom he frequently voted.
With the observations made by the Hon. Member for the
West Riding at the commencement of his speech he entirely
agreed. If danger was apprehended from a foreign power,
the most natural thing to be done was to call home our
fleet lying idle in the Tagus. (An Hon. Member—lt has
come home.) He (Mr. Osborne) should conclude it was still
at the Tagus unless assured to the contrary by some autho-
rity. But while he agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member
for the West Riding on the necessity of bringing home that
fleet, and protecting the Channel, he must say that he
never found his Hon. Friend so provoking or so aggressive
as when he talked of peace.—(A laugh.) He regretted it,
because in other things the services he had rendered had
been great, but on the subject of peace he seemed to
have a most unfortunate monomania.—(A laugh.) His
Honourable Friend had actually said, that so great
was his confidence in the morale of the French army,
he did not believe they would make an attack on this
country. Had his Hon. Friend confidence in troops who had
so lately made such fusillades on the Boulevards at Paris?
Did his Hon. Friend suppose that St. Arnaud, or any of
their generals who had taken part in the late scenes, would
hesitate to attack this country—they who had not hesitated
to break through all law, human, and he might say, divine,
and who had placed the leaders of their own Legislature
under arrest ?—(Hear, hear.) If his Hon. Friend had con-
fidence in such an army, he (Mr. Oaborne) had not. He
was neither an alarmist nor an economist, but he looked
upon the Government as responsible for the safety of the
country. He should not now discuss the question of calling
out the militia; but he must say that no foreign power could
object to any measure which this country might take if
purely of a defensive character. His Hon. Friend the Member
for the West Riding had stated that one of his objections to
the proposal was the paying so small a sum as 10d. a day
to the militia so called out. Now, on that ground, he did
support the proposal ; for he was in favour of the cheapest
defence possible. He thought the Noble Lord had completely
answered the objections made with respect to Ireland. and he
agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for
Wiltshire, that the measure should not be referred to a
Select Committee, but ought to rest on the responsibility of
the Government.
Mr. COBDEN, in explanation, said be had often observed
that if an Hon. Member was at a loss for arguments he often
found out one upon misrepresentations of what another Mem-
ber had said. His Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex
had charged him with having said that the French army had
too mach honour

Mr. OSBORNE—MoraIe.
country. Now, what he
Mr. COBDEN—had too much morale to invade this
Gentlemen had spoken of 12,000 d orw 15,000 French troops
landing on our shores without declaration of war, he had
said that that would be buccaneering, g and that he did not
--When Hon.
think officers would be found in the army to head
such an expedition—(Ohs oh)
—without be hanged
at once.
and that if they did,
Friend held anyroid
hshisaareson.invrF
Mr. OSBORNE thought his • d bad substan-
tiated lion. Friend
what he had stated. Tie knew not whether his Hon.
andw,l.l.e„araje--stnitak.othn,ouatsthaetyhdiewsclaration of war,
slice°
who had violated the Co •inr
anomt.—an
to maintain.
Constitution he had sworn
--(Hear.) Really his Hon. Friend's
faculty of logical
de-
duction seemed to fail him wheneverquestion of peace or
the
war was talked of.—(Laughter.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in .)
ernedn French
feel roe! inwdadye
a whier across the table, in
answer to the Right Hon. the Member for Wilts, was un-
derstood to say that he only te
refer the Bill to a
Select Committee, for the proposed
its details
Purpose of being con- ,
sidered ; the principle of course was for the House to discuss. i
Mr: TRRLAWNY said a
few aswords _
in support of the
Bill, conceiving it to be
one whicheven a Radical Reformer
might support.
Mr. ALCOCK said that considering the present state of
France he should aupport the Ain! He could not help
making use of the present opportnn-
vurge upon Govern-
ment the necessity of attending —it' to "
to the arms supplied to our
soldiers. Ile believed they were
to those supplied
inferior
to the troops of Prussia, France, Be; India, or Algiers.
He would refer Hon. Members to articlegium, in the New
Quarterly for November, 1841, theyifan v"shed for proof of
the inferiority of the muskets of o Idleirs to the jezails of
the Affghans. It was absolutely
necessaryur SO
that the military
authorities should turn their attentionthe subject. He
to .
believed one reason why our arms was to
be found in the prohibition in favourwere so inferior
our gun-makers
of
which existed against the importation of arms of foreign ma-
nufacture.
Mr. HUME felt bound to correct the statement of the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Honourable
Gentleman The
Gentleman had referred to an article written ten years ago,
and seemed to be unaware that in conse
quence of the Com-
mittee which had sat on this subject
British service had been changed within the musket of the
and that the muskets used by the Afrgbae last dvehyeaarsli
been changed. These things ought to be
known,
army ad
and the
public ought to be disabused of the opinion thatlown,
of
the arms
the soldiers were now inefficient. Sir 11., Vivian sent
commissioned officer to every country in Europe had
on
_ to report
the subject, and bring home specimens etf
the best muskets.
Those arms had been brought home and tried, and the Ord-
nance department had directed the best
of them to be
selected for the British army- The whole of the flint muskets
had been changed for percussion, and a vote of 150,0001. had
been granted for the supply of new arrna. The Hon. Gen-
tleman ought not, therefore, to frighten old women by stat-
ing that the muskets of our troops would not fire. With re-
gard to the present panic and the propose I before them, he
thought that some of the language which had been held on
the subject would almost warrant a fortification of the whole
coast, and the building of Martell° towers, and the digging
of entrenchments on every hill. If a militia was necessary
let the whole of the militia laws be consolidated, and the
regular militia called out. He did no t see the justice of
throwing the burden on persor-s of twenty-one or twenty-two
years of age. Every one between the piers of eighteen and
forty-five should ;be balloted for.' f TT
, --enr, hear.) His age
would exempt him, but he only. wished he, was again at that
age, even with
the chance of being drawn for the militia.
Captain „r SCOBELL believed that so for as e kept
our
sea and had ebips of a suf ticiently large size
supremacy at
the country would be -
to protect our shores safe. He was
element of Etem f
not alarmed at the new , . er it was of as
in defence as in attack . With
power which
much use
thought it almost i •
mpossible for a
steam would give he
hostile force to approach our
in _ shores with out being attacked.
At the same time he concurred the suggestions which had
been thrown out as to the prudence of call ing home our fleet.
If due precautions were taken with reaper t to our navy, they
might rest assured that there would neve r be a hostile force
on our shores. It was no easy mat-
terof any strength landed
like this, with a population double
to invade a country
what it was in 1803. Our shipswereteamers equal in size to those
of any other nation, and ou.r.s _ , tl tough susceptible of
cope with those of at Ay other power. We
improvement, could
had, also, the security that the embarkation of any force in the
ports of France must be a work of days, and would beknown
ed to the
to our consuls, and comraunicat _ Government here.
Dir. ANSThY the reminded il
Qll. Gel:Wel:OM that if our

population had doubled since 1803, it was one which had not
been used to arms, and WAS in that respect unwarlike. He
hoped that henceforth the pernicious system of passing an-
nually the Militia Suspension Bill would cease, and that re-
course tr,ml,l be had to the constitutional ftn-ce of a militia,
a force sufficient to repel all dread of invasion, acd yet not
sufficient to inspire the country with a,,y of that alarm
which would arise from a large addition to our standing
army. He (Mr. Anstey) thought there ought to be no dif-
ference between our laws and those of the Channel Islands
in that respect, where all were bound to serve in self-de-
fence, and they were thus saved from being subjected. to the
expense of maintaining a standing army: Therefore, with
ti,view of reducing our standing army, he should like to see
a similar system adopted, and he believed the establishment
of a good militia was cheaper and safer than any other sort.
of force. Such a measure as the present he considered
was wanting, and when they came to consider the de-
tails in Committee, any objections that might be enter-
tained towards the proposition of the Noble Lard might be
fully stated.

The CHAIRMAN then asked whether it was agreed to
that they should move the House for leave to bring in a Bill
to amend the present militia laws?
Hr. HUME considered it would be better to repeal all the
old laws, and bring in a Bill consolidating them in one Act
Of Parliament. Ile would ask the Noble Lord whether that
would not be the better mode of proceeding?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL suggested that it would be more
advisable, before entering upon any discussion, to wait
until they saw the Bill the Right Ilonourablo Gentleman
had spoken of.
The House then resumed.

The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave
:o bring i❑ the Bill.
SUITORS IN CHANCERY RELIEF BILL.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the second reading
of the above Bill.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that it was a most important
measure. It was one for the abolition of fees to certain
officers of the court, and at the same time it gave a power to
the Lord Chancellor to issue stamps from the stamp-office to
supply the place of those fees. He wished to know from the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite what limit was
placed to the Lord Chancellor's power in respect of that dis-
cretion placed in his hands ? It should be remembered that
they were thus parting with a power which was one of a
most serious character—namely, that of taxing the subject.
They knew that the Court of Chancery levied very large
sums annually. He also wished to know why it was
that one class of officers were to be paid out of fees or
stamps, and another out of the Consolidated Fund ? The
present was a time when he thought the whole financial
system cf the Court of Chancery should be placed on a solid
basis. However, it appeared to him that the present Bill
would put that system in as complicated a state as it at
present stood, so far as raising money was concerned. Up
to the present moment the annual expenses of the Court of
Chancery were about 200,0001., and therefore, on consider-
ing a measure like that, he contended that the House was
bound to see that the money was raised in the best possible
manner.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he had endeavoured,
in introducing that Bill, to explain, in the best manner he
could, the various provisions in it. He thought he had
clearly shown that its effect would be materially to simplify
and nut complicate the present financial system of that
court. There were about 90 officers now, who were paid in
330 payments; and, in lieu of that, it was proposed by the
present Bill to have payments made by means of stamps.
The Hon. Baronet asked him what limits it was proposed to
set to the power of issuing stamps. In reply he had to say
that the first object in view was to put an end at once to
such a number of small payments, and it was
advisable that they should be concentrated at some
particular point of each case. That was the reason wby it
er
si
nt
ygi
osi.nnrbksgr
been
Henneii 1
inetleuergrahopre
doepßhgounoii
acrrsl
regretted
itheatgodee
dt°
fixingwas
the
et o 0
tg give
taxation,th e L Lord
the
exact them pwohweenr oftt
would be most expedient could only be ascertained by ex-
perience and practice. It was said that some of the salaries
were to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, while others
were still to be continued out of the stamp duties. He did
not think any other arrangement would be a just one, for the
reasons he had stated in introducing that Bill to the House.
It was manifestly the duty of the Government to provide
for whatever expenses might arise from the necessity of ad-
judicating upon conflicting rights. The judges and officers
connected with the court, therefore, were properly paid out
of the Consolidated Fund. But there was another branch of
the Court of Chancery which was purely administrative, and
which did not come under the same reasons. Many persons
might wish, for their private convenience, to place their
affairs in the Court of Chancery; and it was only right and
fair that they should contribute to the expenses which their
own convenience or business caused. As he had stated when
he introduced the Bill, he believed that about 107,000/. a
year would be saved to the suitors by the proposed measure.
Sir J. GRAHAM did not rise for the purpose of opposing
the second reading of the Bill, having formerly given his ap-
probation to a similar proposition. On the contrary, he had
heard with much satisfaction the statement of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who brought it before the House. That
was not the moment to enter into the details of the Bill,
which should be done in Committee. He merely rose, there-
fore, to put a question to the Hon. and Learned Attorney-
General on the subject before them. The House would re-
collect that on the 27th of June last they had agreed to an
address to her Majesty, praying that two gentlemen not of
the legal profession might be added to the Chancery Com-
mission already appointed. The address further went on to
request " that her Majesty would be graciously, pleased to
cause instructions to be given to the said Commissioners to
direct their attention to the business of the masters in ordi-
nary of the Court of Chancery, with a view to ascertain
whether the expenses of their offices might not be ma-
terially lessened, if not done away with."—(Hear, hear.)
In accordance with the prayer of that address, the Hon.
Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and himself (Sir
J. Graham) had been added to that Commission. In obe-
dience to the directions of the Commission, they had turned
their attention to all the general matters connected there-
with, but particularly to that point which the House had more
especially noticed. The Commission consisted, amongst other
individuals, of two vice-chancellors, three members of the
Chancery bar, and several of the judges, oesides my Honour-
abfe Friend behind me (Hr. Henley), and myself. It would
appear that the composition of the Commission was some-
what heterogeneous. Nevertheless, the report to which
they had agreed had been signed by all unanimously. They
had reported with respect to that particular point to which
he had referred, that no additional Masters in Chancery ought
to be appointed - (Dear, hear)—that the masters now in office
should occupy their time exclusively in the winding up the
business at present before them—(Hear, hear)—and that in
future the judges in chamber should do the business formerly
performed by the masters.- (Hear.) Now he had been
delighted to see that in accordance with some of the pare-
Igor Majesty's
He was fully aware of all the circumstances which would ne-
ghrisaPinhsteonft
binoc
eeoi s
not,
thought
might
however,iounl yfgo causethEtnb tgeh aaahntddedetovlhpeha
the carrying
c adpd
it not that he had to state his surprise that the Lord Chan-
celloranother place his hope that the recommendations with re-
spect to the masters, in the report of the Commissioners,
if it were so, for the recommendation in question he consi-
dered was the key-atone of all the rest.—(Hear, hear.) And
be satisfactory to the people of England more than any
other suggestion made.—( Hear.) He rose, therefore, chiefly
to ask whether the Lord Chancellor had made up his mind
on that part of the report, or whether it
this
go.
expressed
xcsh
tal ipoi
ouieenol
sdns webdwe°
woulduegoirl in
another
or not was approved
of by him? If there were any questions of
be considered, he could say that he would be one of the last
men in the world to see gentlemen occupying the positions
of the Masters in Chancery treated with anything like harsh-
ness or injustice.—(Hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it appeared to him
that the observations of the Lord Chancellor were misun-
derstood. That Noble and Learned Lord had been placed
in the unusual position of being obliged to make answers to
questions which were put to him with respect to the de-
tails of other measures. That was not regular or usual
when a future opportunity would be afforded for discus..
sing those details. If any impressions had gone abroad,
caused by the supposed statement of the Noble and
Learned Lord, that there had been any delay on the part
of the Government in carrying into effect the Bill founded
on the instructions of the Committee, he could assure the
House that no possible delay beyond the ordinary delay
had occurred. He could say that a most erroneous im-
fnttopii
IttnFrhhae
scaartheitteeaunnstßvptuhdeiogil had a
that
announcedet
subject.
im-
pression, like that he alluded to, had been produced, if
any such existed. All that the Noble and Learned Lord in-
tended to state was, when asked whether he had definitively
made up his mind with respect to the whole of the clauses of
a Bill not before Parliament, that it was extremely incon-
venient for him to give his decided opinion on such a
matter, and he therefore declined stating whether or not he
had made up his mind on any particular point until the Bill
was actually before the House. But the Noble and Learned
Lord had stated,when the reportwas made, that he was most
anxious to carry out the Bill founded on the report of the
Committee of the House. It was only four days before the
assembling of Parliament that the report of the commission
had been placed in the Noble Lord's hands, and immediately
after he had given directions to have a Bill drawn in accord-
ance with that report. He (the Solicitor-General) had been
allowed to communicatethe general opinion of the Commis-
sion before the final resolution had been come to; and when
he had told him that the office of the masters was under
consideration, he had at first said that he would not recom-
mend their abolition; but as soon as he was aware what the
exact report of the Commissioners was, the Noble and.
Learned Lord had given immediate directions for the prepara-
tion of a Bill in accordance with the recommendations of the
report. It was only when they came to frame a Bill that the
time had arrived to test its details; and it was to that state
of things that the Lord Chancellor's remarks applied. Until
he saw the Bill in a certain shape he said he could not state
how far the Act would have his approbation or not. That
the Bill would carry out all the recommendations of the
Co
ssmmissioners re ,he had no doubt whatsoever ; and he could
au the Right Hon. Baronet that there would be no delay
in its preparation.
Mr. HENLEY said he had heard with great pleasure the
statement of the Solicitor-General, supposing he had under-
if
der
i-f
stood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman properly.. For
he caught the meaning of his words aright, it was this—
that
the statement of the Lord Chancellor had reference not to
to
that particular point of the report of the Commissioners
which allusion had been made, but to some details of a
mea-
sure which might be proposed to carry out the same object.
nment were
His mind was then so far relieved that q
- °verof the Com-
determined to carry out the recommendations
missioners. at th a head of the
Sir G. GREY said his Noble Frien
culd do would be
Government thought the best thing he p
of the intention to
to give as early a notice as possiblet
of the Commission.
bring in a Bill founded on the repor
hewould say that the
With respect to that Commission,
realest possible assist-
legal portion of it had derived the g
ance from the other gentlemen who had been associated with
them.—(Hear.)
time, and ordered to be
The Bill was then read a second

hich tusk
ireegtehawt in c
--- -
committed.
ST. ALBANS DISFRANCISEMENT BILL.
Sir GEORGE GREY moved for leave to bring in a Bill,
of which he had given notice for the disfranchisement of
tli
an
erg:
ueesiorlylte,hcartonwdt
Thrown
ieparreotchaeewe daw a y
of a c 0
the Borough of St. Alban's. The Right Hon. Baronet said,
it would not be necessary that he should state, at any length,
the grounds upon which be made this motion. The 11
pcgoluaucelnedc
aperfectlytof the e
lastonse-
wo
besl
investigation, it pas.sed an Act in the course of last complete
the preamble of which stated, that corruptracti session'
• • the borough of St. Albans.
prevailed in By that
ces had long
Commissioners were appointed, with full pow Act three
witnesses and and
documents. Of the powers for calling
of that Accostand of the Commission appeint4umplet situceza
had the m gratifying proof in the book under , they
which contained the evidence they had taken,"w before him,
their report upon it, and which had been together with
ment. The Commissioners stated thatn laid before Parlia-
their inquiry with a view to ascertain they commenced
rupt practices were confined to few whether those cor-
they were the result of a cases only, or whether
system '
which had long prevailed in the b atic
course of corruption,
it was general, a nd was the orough. They. found that
election for the borough memb usual accompaniment of an
the Rome with re Ading extensive Members. He would not trouble
extracts from their report,

I as it had been in the hands of Members for a considerable
time, but would merely allude to some of the snore striking
facts which they had detailed, and which were abundantly
established by the evidence. They stated that the number
of electors, consisting of 101. freeholders and scot-add-lot
voters, we; 483, of whom 380 voted. They gave the sum
expended upon the election as .17,0001, of which they
calculated that at least three-fourths was spent in
bribery. Politics, they said, had no influence whatever
in these elections, great numbers of the voters being
ready to dispose of their votes fur money placed in their
hands. The Commissioners, at page 27 of their report,
added same other matters, and amongst these they
exonerated the gentry and clergy from having partici-
pated in the corruption. He passed over, however, that
portion of the report which related to individuals; as it was
in evidence before the Commission, and as the Act of Par-
liament indemnified them. no proceedings would be taken
against them on account of their statements. As regarded
the practice itself, the Commissioners report states that it
had long prevailed in the borough of St. Albans, and that
bribery to a great extent bad been systematically carried on.
The conviction which must force itself, therefore, on the
mind of any one who gave attention to this evidence, and
report was, that corruption in this borough had prevailed to
an extent almost unprecedented, and fur a considerable
length of time. That being so, the only cure they had to
propose was the disfranchisement of the borough. This was
not a new course. It was the remedy which Parliament had
had in contemplation, in the event of the result proving such
as it had proved. He, therefore, trusted that there would be
no objection to the motion he had to make, viz., for leave to
bring in a Bill for the disfranchisement of the borough of St.
Albans. He should not at that time take notice of the
amendment of his Hon, and Gallant Friend the Blember for
Westminster; as he understood that the Hon. and Gallant
Gentleman did not intend pressing it.
Sir D. L. EVANS believed there were ample grounds
for the motion which he had proposed to bring forward, but
he was aware that a technical objection would be made to
it, that no commission had sat to inquire into the practices
of the borough to which his motion referred; but there had
been a Committee to inquire into the corruption that had
taken place in Harwich, and it was his impression that if a
commission were appointed to inquire into the practices
that prevailed there, instead of a lesser case than at St.
Albans, greater corruption would be found in Harwich, and
more ingrained in the constituency. The Committee over
which the Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield bad pre-
sided had done all that a commission appointed by the
Crown could do, and therefore, instead of proposing as an
amendment on that occasion the motion of which he had
given notice, he should to-morrow (this day) move that no
new writ should be issued for Harwich without ten days'
notice, which would afford an opportunity of taking the
sense of the House upon the propriety of that borough being
disfranchised.
Mr. SEYMER said, that the borough of Harwich being
unrepresented in that House—(Cries of " No, no")—and he
having been the chairman of a Committee that had sat to in-
quire into the votes given on the election for that borough,
he must say that of bribery and corruption there was only a
very slight trace—he could not say more—(A laugh)—there
was one case in which some thought that the election was
influenced by corrupt practices, but that was the only case.
He did not say that the Members were immaculate
(" Hear," and laughter),--but at all events they were pru-
dent—(Laughter),—and that prudence ought to serve them
in good stead. There was no proof of corruption, and,
that being so, he thought that, having no representative
in that House, the borough ought to have some considera-
tion.—( Hear.)
Mr. BAGSHAW said that no one doubted that up to 1841
the greatest possible corruption did exist at the elections for
the borough of Harwich; but he emphatically denied that
anything of the sort had taken place since that time.—(A
laugh.) Could anything show it more than the circumstance
of Sir J. Hobhouse's having been nominated for the borough,
and being returned for it without having ever seen the place ?
but, unquestionably, from that time to the present, nothing
in the shape of corruption had existed in the borough, and
he was delighted to find that the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Westminster would move for a commission to inquire into
the corrupt practices alleged to prevail there, as the bad odour
and bad character of the borough would be at once ob-
literated, and it would shine out with greater lustre than
before.—(Laugh ter.)
Sir J. WILLOUGHBY had himself not long since repre-
sented Harwich, and he could testify there was, at that time,
nothing like the corruption existing in the borough which
was imputed to it on the other side of the House.
Mr. ROEBUCK wanted to prelude a sham. There could
be no doubt that downright corruption existed at Harwich,
but the point was, that the House should keep in mind that
there was no real difference between the corruption of the
poor, and perhaps ignorant voter, who sold his own vote for
a SL-note, and the whole sale corruption of the rich proprie-
tor, who sold his nomination borough for 2,000/.—(Hear,
hear)—except, indeed, that the criminality of the latter to-
wards the country was ti:e far greater of the two. He
trusted that this point would not be lost sight of in the pro-
gress of the new Reform Bill, and that the House would not
permit the sham of disfranchisiog a et-irrupt borough, because
a couple of hundred men did th ere in small what the rich
nobleman or commoner did in large, and on his own sole ac-
count, in his nomination borough,. and let the nomination
boroughs escape.—( Hear, bear.)
Lord D. STUART did not conceive that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Harwich had at all mended the matter on behalf of
the nest of corruption which he represented. He heartily
concurred in his Hon. and Learned Friend's hope, that the
House would get rid of nomination boroughs as well as of
simply corrupt boroughs.
Mr. BELL rose, and was loudly called upol to proceed,
whiih he was about to do, when he sat down again, and said
he would reserve what he had to say.
Mr. WHITESIDE asked whether the attention of the
Right Hon. Baronet had been directed to that part of the St.
Albans evidence which stated that Government places had
been the reward of persons who had committed corruption on
behalf of reform candidates? (Hear.)
Sir G. GREY was ignorant of any such rewards having
been given by the Government to which he belonged for
any such corrupt practices, but the evidence referred sb
having been given on oath it was not for him, of course, to
question it.
Lord C. HAMILTON wanted to know whether Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, who had such a horror of corruption in
relation to all who sat on the benches opposite to them, had
ever heard of Mr. Coppock—(Hear, hear)—that remarkably
active member of the Reform Club—(Hear, hear)—who,
whenever a new writ was moved, was sure to repair by spe-
cial train to the vacant borough, for purposes which the St.
Albans evidence fully developed. - (Hear, hear.) He should
be glad to know whether the virtuously indignant members
of the Reform Club had ever, individually or collectively,
taken any steps to put a atop to the operations which Mr.
Coppock had notoriously been engaged in for the last 15
years.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK begged to inform the Noble Lord that he,
for one, had had nothing to do with Mr. Coppock in any of
his elections, and that Mr. Coppock would never have dared
to come where he was a candidate, pretending to be on his
side. He had stood always on his own ground; and, as to
his expenses, which in relation to his elections had never
gone a farthing beyond the bona fide legitimate expenses, he
had, in each case, been distinctly told by those who had
elected him that he was in no degree to consider himself
called upon to meet them.
Lord C. HAMILTON—Is not the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman a Member of the Reform Club ?
Mr. ROE BUCK—Yee, I am ; but I never go there. (A
laugh.)
Mr. SPOONER said, that the question which had been
put to the Government merited a fuller and more serious
answer. The Right Hon. Gentleman had probably not
missed this evidence of Mr. Coppock :
"You have told us, which no doubt is the fact, that you
have had great experience with regard to contest in dif-
ferent boroughs upon the Liberal side; have you, as a
matter of fact—we do not ask any details or any names—
exerted yourself to obtain places for those who have sery
you on those occasions, either under Government or elsZr-
where ?—I have exerted myself on every occasion to serve
those to whom I considered myself indebted. But in that
particular way of obtaining a place ? Not more in that way
than in any other way. Have you in that way ?—I have
taken people into my own office ; I have placed them in
other people's offices; I have got them situations on rail-
ways, and I have got them situations anywhere. Have you
got them situations under Government in any one case ?—I
certainly have been the means of recommending people to
situations under Government. And they have obtained
them ultimately ?—I have had clerks in my own office who
have had situations from Government. That is rather
avoiding the question P—Forgive me for saying this; you
are putting a question to me upon a subject as to which, you
know, there is a positive legal punishment attached to it;
you may say that here nothing will attach to it; but, as in
connexion with St. Albans I negative it entirely, I really
think you should not ask me that question so generally a
that; but I will answer it if you choose, The certificate
that we shall give you will hold you harmless from all
te
~.
con-
sequences of any sort or kind, civil or criminal_
following
question aware of that. [The short-handwriter reads dothe 1
not ask anfory
question Have you, as a matter of fact—
I
details or any names—exerted yourself to .obtain places
those who have served you on those occasions either under
Government or elsewhere ?']—Certainly I have exerted my.
self to serve parties who have served me."
If the Government did not remove the impression produced
by this evidence the country would believe them to be fore-
most among the promoters of corruption.
Sir G. GREY did not know what other answer he could
give than he had already given.
Mr. BELL had desired, on various occasions, when this
unfortunate a matter—(Laughter)—had been before the
House, to take part in the debate, but he had always been
dissuaded by some person or other, so that for the last fifteeneen
months he had
an incubus hanging over him, which he had
The
ws
nand. ;stood g,
ande )h
had no opportunity ofheaxdplbaeineinngmai
course he had taken
been supposed either indifferent on the matter or unabelheatdo
afford a satisfactory explanation of his conduct. Just now,
again, when about to offer some remarks to the House, it
had been suggested to him to hold his tongue—(A laugh)—
and to take his own
but he was determined now to act upon his own judgment,
course.— (R ear,hear, and a laugh.) He
had admitted the expediesnacyieeettwhhisilabstaining from address-
ing the House on the h
pending, and while a number of
other persons judicial
hiensqi
du
ei re yh wi
eats
self, engaged in this unlucky trausacti
being compromised ; but no on, were capable of
such reasons now existed for
restraining the explanation which he had so long desired
to make to the Rouse. Before he said anything about the
borough of St. Albans, ;he
events, to clear himself f wished in some degree, at all
from the extreme severity of the
accusations which had pressed upon him, and from the im-
putation that it was with his eyes open he had plunged
into this affair, and knowing all the circumstances of the
case before him.—(A laugh )
looking It was all very easy for gen-
tlemen,for it on ground all the details of which had
been by close research mapped out, to point out what should
have been avoided, and where the' difficulties and dangers
lay, but he had had no such advantage when be set out in
the matter.—(A laugh.) It was perfectly clear that he had
committed one grave error, and that was in going down to
St. Albans at all.—(Great laughter.) But bow was he to
have known that the belief on which he had been led to act
was a fallacy ?—(Laughter.) Was there not ground for him
to suppose that in going down he should not be opposed,
seeing that the three parties in the borough had each,
through its representative, requested him to go down?
(Laughter.) In his ignorance of the borough and of the
politics of the people there, when he found all three parties
saying they were willing to support him, surely it was not
for him to suppose that any disputes about secondary mat-
ters--(Laughter)—would set any of these people against him
when he had got down amongst them. (Laughter.)
Having once embarked on the battle-field, having pledged
himself to go to the poll. having canvassed the electors
vigorously in order to secure a position as soon as pos-
sible—(Great laughter), —it was too late for him tr,
retreat; there was no opportunity of retracing his stepo,
or of extricating himself from the dilemma in which be
found himself. He must confess, he had not been lons
in
the borough before tome very strong suspicions came !.nto
his head—(Laughter)—but then he had not conceived it to
be his duty to ferret out all the details of the proceedings
(Great laughter.) He understood it was not usual for can-
didates to dive into every act of every agent who might be
employed—( Laughter)—but that it was simply the busmess
of the candidate to canvass the constituency, in order to