The Sun.
London, England, 1864-03-08 00:00:00

of the scheme to which I now invite the attention of the
house. Taking it for granted that very serious and ex-
tensive evils exist, the two main questions to which I wish
to ask the attention of the house are, first of all, is the
plan which we propose a safe plan ? and, secondly, does it in-
volve injustice to any one ? As regards safety, I think we
have some claims to confidence. I would not say that if I
urged it on behalf of myself, of any particular party, or of
any particular Government; but the fact is, that the whole
excellence of the arrangements under which recent measures
had been framed is due not to us but to the able men con-
nected with the permanent public service of the country—
such men as Sir Alex, Spearman, Mr. Chetwynd, of the
Post-office, and, above all, of that indefatigable and most
able public servant, Mr. Scudamore. These are men in
whose judgment I feel very great confidence with regard to
the practical question of the safety of these particular ar-
rangements, and in whom I think the house will also be
disposed to confide. The house may fairly feel great jea-
lousy on this subject, but I will say that I am willing, in
any way, to meet every objection—first, by such explana-
tions as are in lay power to offer ; and, secondly, to provide
in the bill that no rule which may be adopted for the pur-
pose of giving effect to the provisions of this act shall be
subjected to the scrutiny and approval of the house in the
same manner as the minutes of the Council of Education.
The subject is one which admits of ample and general dis-
cussion. It is quite easy to see in what manner the danger
may arise in the working of a schema of this kind. It may
arise from fraud with respect to the evidence of lives—
(hear, hear) ; and, secondly, it way arise from personation.
There are parts of the country—which I will not now point
out more particularly—where the inhabitants are such
adepts in the business of personation, that some insurance
offices decline to have anything to do with them. (A laugh.)
Bat I now wish to call attention to what I think a funda-
mental distinction between the business which it is pro-
posed to undertake, at the option of the people and on the
part of the Government, and the ordinary business of life
assurance companies. Let me ask the particular attention of
the house to the question of the supposed difficulty that we
are to have in dealing with the lives of the labouring classes.
If insurances are not to exceed £lOO, they must be ex-
clusively insurances of the labouring classes. We exclude
children and persons under the age of 16 years altogether,
because the lives of children and persons of 16 years of age
admit of great uncertainty and fraud; and that is a depart-
ment we do not think it would be wise or safe to undertake.
Practically, the persons who will insure with us are fathers
of families—the labouring men of the country. Is it a
difficult thing to ascertain the value of the lives of the
labouring men of the country ? It is not. In the first place,
we have the means of obtaining the necessary information.
We have the certificates of medical men who are the medi-
cal officers attached to the guardians of the poor, and who
are themselves officers of the State. So far as medical means
go, we have all that can be desired. But what I venture to
state, and to state boldly, is that, although the ascertain-
ment of life in the higher classes of society is a matter of

great subtlety and difficulty, requiring the application of the

highest medical skill, and afterwards a jealous scrutiny, yet
the value of lite in the case of labouring men is a matter
comparatively simple. (No, no.) You have these three
things, all of them matters easily ascertainable. The first
is as to age—that is matter of fact and not of opinion ;
second, as to employment—that is also matter of fact and
not of or inion ; and thirdly, as to whether the man is a
sober man or a drunkard. Ido not mean to say that in
every case you know the value of the life, but I say that
generally you know the value of the life, and in a manner
perfectly sufficient for safely working your tables. I had
lately an opportunity of discussing the subject with an
eminent member of the medical profession in London,
who was himself the medical consulting officer of two
insurance offices. I asked him whether that was the case.
He said it was, and, speaking merely of certificates sent
from the country, he used these words—ln the case of
industrial insurances `ewe scarcely look at our medical

papers : " thus distinctly affirming the proposition that
in the cases of the labouring classes the employment and
general character are palpable and known to all the world,
and are, in the long run, a sufficient and satisfactory test.
We have some experience already, because we have been

working our system of saving banks for some time,, where
there is certainly some temptation to personation, but not a
single case of the kind has arisen. My belief is that, com-
paring a Government department with the case of an in-
surance office of a large description—l do not speak of
friendly societies, which are local in their character—l say
distinctly, the means enjoyed by the Government officers of
ascertaining the value of life are very superior to those of
insurance offices, because the man who insures with the
Government has every means of having his identity tested,
The Government have in these matters natural allies in

those persons who are best acquainted with the condition of
the labouring classes throughout the country—the clergy-
man, the Dissenting minister, the magistrate, the poor law
guardians, the registrars, and last, but not least, the em-
ployers of labour. Through these persons it is perfectly easy
for the Government to defend themselves against the risk
of fraud. It appears to me this is not a very difficult mattcr
as far as regards safety. It has been carefully eonsieered
how far such a system could be worked, and I admit here

we stand in a different position from that in which we are
placed under the existing law, where the deferred annuity
required to,be purchased is itself looked to as security. But
undoubtedly all the inquiry I can make convince me that
the ascertainment of the value of the lives of labouring men
is, as a general rule, easy and simple, and that, as relates to

fraud by means of personation, it has not been found to pre,
sent any vital difficulty in the way of existing secieties,
whereas it would be easier for us to cope with it. With re-
gard to taking bad live 4, let us see what occurs in the cue
of existing societies. They have agents all over the country,
and, to induce those agents to draw lives in their nets, they
offer them 25 per cent. upon all the premiums they obtain,
exclusive of fees. There are societies with hundreds and
thousands of members existing under your auspices,
authorised and subsidised by you, who are drawing lives
into assurance in connection with themselves by giving to
their agents 25 per cent, upon the whole of the premiums,
which is a larger sum than ought to cover twice the ex-
pense of a well-managed insurance society. But what is
the effect of this with respect to fraud an personation ? The
agent goes into a certain district or village, and, with so
large a commission, you cannot expect him to be very scru-
pulous in the selection of good lives. (Hear, hear.) So
much for the safety of these operations. The next question
is, whether this is a measure which can be undertaken

iustly with respect to those parties who are now performing

the business of insurance. There are three classes of so-
cieties which it is necessary to take into view. The first is
the case of the principal insurance societies ; the second are

the minor insurance societies, who have but a limited range
of business, or who deal exclusively with industrial pre-
miums ; and the third are friendly societies. The question
is whether this proposal is a just proposal, and whether it
can possibly trench upon the domain of those societies. It
would be invidious to define the offices coming under the
category of insurance societies ; but those acquainted with
mercantile pursuits have no difficulty in distinguishing the
several societies. We know what is their attitude with re-
gard to this proposal—it is one either of neutrality or favour.
They do not desire small business, and they know the busi-
ness of the Government must be small. First of all, be-
cause the sums pointed out in the bill are small; and, se-
condly, because they assume that no Government is likely
over to think it rational to inte fore with assurance business,
probably so called ; and, thirdly, because, if Government
made the demand, Parliament would not accede to it. But,
farther, if both the Government and the Parliament were
to accede to such a proposal, it would not be in the power
of the State to shake the position of many of the
insurance societies which now exist. These societies do
not desire small busines,, as I can show by reference
to the Post-office. In that department there is a
system of insurance among the minor offices ; and although
the collection of the premiums, which constitutes the heavi-
est charge in insurance offices was undertaken by the Post-
office, yet there was soma difficulty in getting ono of the
superior offices to undertake the business. the following
offices declined to undertake it—the Sun, the Atlas, the
National Provident, the Scottish Equitable, the Amicable,
and the flock. That shows that business of this kind is of
no value to such offices. I will now, without going into
details, state a few facts in connection with soma of these
offices ; the first point is the date, the second is the premium
income, and the third is the accumulations. The Standard
office, which was founded in 1825, has a premium income of
£247,000, and its accumulations amount to £2,133,000, or
nine years' premium income. The University Life Insur-
ance Office, established in 1825, has an income of £14,000 a
year, its capital is £600,000, and its accumulations amount
to £780,000, or 17 years' premium income. The London
and Provincial Law Society, founded in 1544, has an amount
insured equal to a milion and a half; its premium income
is £16,000, and its accumulations £ 220,000, or 18 years' in-
come. The Lancashire, founded in 1852, has a premium
income of £23,000, and its accumulations are £856,000, or
about four years' income. The right hon. gentleman, for
the purpose of showing the feeling with which the large
offices regarded the Government measure, read a short
extract from a speech delivered by the chairman of the
Standard Insurance Company, who predicted very fa-
vourable things of the Government measure, which was
calculated to bring insurance within the reach of all. I
come :low to the cansideration of industrial business in
connection with the minor societies. The house will un-
derstand that industrial insurances are distinguished from
insurances in general. Those depend upon monthly or
weekly premiums, whereas the general insurance offices
depended upon yearly, half•yearly, or quarterly. The in-
dustrial business is carried' on upon a very small scale.
I do not doubt that there are excellent societies dealing
with industrial business but they do not make provision for
the wants of the population at large. You may find an in-
surance society in this or that particular district ; but what
I have to look in the face is that there are all over the
country insurance societies inviting persons by means of
agents, whom I cannot call anything but preachers and
denominational ministers, to whom a commission of 25 per
cent. is given, and we may expect that such a reward as this
is calculated to unlock the iciest tongue, and make these
agents eloquent in praises of the societies to which they be-
long. (Hear, hear.) Ido not question that there may be
societies living simply upon industrial business which are
good and sound. What cause have they to be afraid of
Government competition ? What can we do which will
give uan unfair advantage over theca ? Iu the fret place,