The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-08 00:00:00

TUESDAY r; EVENING,

the weight attaching to his name in the senate of his coun-
try, that if we did not take care we should bring represen-
tative government itself into disrepute, and that it would
_
appear that we could not transact our business, I say that 1
have drawn from the session which is now closing a very
different conclusion and a very opposite moral.—(Cheers.)
I would rather adduce what has been done in this House and
the manner in which it has been done—l would rather ad-
duce it as an argument in favour of representative govern-
ment, in favour, at least of the mode in which representa-
tive government is carried on in this country, than bring
it forward as an argument which should lead us to believe
that the reputation of representative government is in danger..
—(Cheers.) Sir I will not 'dilate . upon the fact that we
have been enabled already to
,pass through the House of
Commons 37 Government' measures, '2O of which have al-,
ready become law ; but when I recall to House the cir-
cumstances of the session, that a change of Government
took place; and when-I remind the House of the party feel-
ings which under such circumstances naturally revived,
of the great delay of business which from such circum-
stancesaimet necessarily occur, and the fact that I and my
colleagues only on the 15th of March were enabled to resume
our seats in this Haase, think it tells very much (as I said
before) for the good sense and good temper of the House
of Commons that we have been permitted by their aid
to carry out to nearly a conclusion so" many
important
meisures.—(Cheers.) Sir, I" remember 'some years ago,
when I sat on: the other side of the House, under the.guid-
sues and advice of that distinguished man Lord George
'I Be*tinck, and when took a part in public affairs, which
I wet not, but for the too great indulgence of my friends, cal-'
culated to occupy, it
,became my duty to sum up the results
of the longest session, that I believe the House of Commons
ever yet experienceda- session of more than ten continuous
months, concluding in the month of September, 1848. There
were at that time the same *charges made as ,to the
ciencv of the House' of Comtnons. At that time you were
told' that the accumulation of ' business was intolerable, aed
that it was proved in' a -manner which every one ought to
view with alarm that a-representative Government could
no longer deal with the affairs of a great community. Sir,
it was my duty then, after a careful analysis of all, the mo-
tions and all the measures of that remarkable session—it
was my duty, then-to`vindicate the conduct. and character of
the House of Commons.—(Hear hear.) It was my
duty.
also to endeavour to prove that which I gave my , reasons for
believing—that it was to weakness of the Ministry, and
not to theinefficiencybf the House—l-Meer, hear) --
me that
lamentable state of affairs *as (ein
In the present in-
stance, Ido not think it necessary for to ascribe the• pie-
sent state of public business either to the weakness of the
Ministry or to the inefficiencrof
the House of Commons, be-
cause I maintain that'the position of public business at such
a period, and after a session so broken up and disturbed,
never was more satisfactory.—(Cheers.) I said that I claim
no credit. for the Ministry for this result, but I can say this
most sincerely for them—that we have endeavoured by sedu-
lous attention to the business which we had to discharge—we
have received from the House of Comrades, even from our
have endeavoured to merit the generous support which we
The motion for the discharge of the second reading of the
Metropolitan Baildinws Act was then pia and agreed to.
. 'THE- euLITIA BILL.
Mr. L. HEYWORTII presented a petition from 7,595
young men of London, and, two petitions from Rochester and
Chatham, against the Militia Bill.

Mr. RICH claimed the attention of the House while he
replied to the attacks made upon those Hon. Gentlemen Who,
having, voted in ' favoue 'of a local 'Militia Bill, had felt it
their (lists to oppoielhe general Militia Bill new before the
House. A most unfair use bad been made of the charge of
opposed the Government
measure.
the grounds upon which this measure 'had been introduced
The --i-Ipine Secretary had
its adopecin. The grounds upon which the measure was to the House, ,the meaSdre itself, and
abroad, and said that
the ofco mstheeciHnenoucseis toof
referred in-
troducedt were
imminentsnarly
from.
in the event of invasion, and after providing for the safety
of our ports and arsenals, only 25,000-men 'would reinain
available for the defence of the country. Ti, a: :
• ...8 uintissiOnlis
it had proceeded had dispelled both allegations. 'The danger
had been given up; both- by words - and deeds, the number
of men-to be raised hadbeen reduced in number, and ,the
Government; had declined to take advantage of the offers,
made to them by.volunteer corps. It' was said the marines
could not be counted as available for the defence of the
country, because, in the event of attack, they 'would be tame
barked on board the fleet. Now, the danger to be guarded.
against was from a sudden and unforeseen 'attack upon •ourl
shores by an enemy. before we were aware of their intention
to effect a landing. • In such an event it would be the height
of imprudence to send•our'Marines from' Woolwich and from
our arsenals. and-they- must therefore be included in any
estimate of our disposable- force.' The Home Secretary had
also excluded -Ireland and the force in • that country; but •
Ireland was as much part and parcel of the United Kingdom
as Yorkshire or Middlesex, and we were bound to defend it,
and Ireland was ' bound ,to come to our defence, in
the event of invasion; Troops had been dispatched from
Dublin to our .inanufactureng districts when they
were in a disturbed state, and the Hight Honourable Gen-
tleman was, therefoie, bound to include Ireland, which, it
should be remembered, contained 12,000 constabulary trained
to the use of arms, and who were therefore available for
the defence of that country. Honourable Members, in
dealing with the disposability of our forces, had assumed that
we were legislating with regard to a large and comprehene
sive invasion of this-country; Such as would imply the com-
mand of. the Channel fleet, and an amount of preparation on
the part of the enemywhich would give us full time, to make
counter pre orations. In such 'e case the allocation of 10,000
men to the Thames, 5,000 to Pertsineuth, and an eqFal. turn-
ber to Plymouth, would be mere mystificatioft and mthleading.
The attack to which:we would' be liable being sudden'and un-
foreseen, there would be imbecility as well as cowardice in
locking up our troops in garrison instead of sending them to
meet the'enemy. It had beeniurged that those who opposed
this Bill were reckless of the defence of the country; but the
best refutation of that imputation was to point to the various
alternatives which • had been proposed as substitutes for this
measure. The Noble Lord the Member for London had sug-
gested' a local militia, a measure more in accordance with the
constitutional precedent, more comprehensive in its operation,
and by which the men would be more easily found. That
alternative had, however, been. rejected. So had the recom-
mendation of the, organization of volunteer corps, and the more
important suggestion of those who preferred the addition of
10,000 or 15,000 men to.the regular army. The Honourable
and Gallant Member for Westminster (Sir De Lacy Evans)
had shown how a force of 4,000 infantry and artillery might
bs brought home from the colonies, and made available for
the defence of the country; -but the Government refused to
of Certainly
adding
when they were consulting about
their' military defences, it did
appear to him to amount to infatuation to attempt to blindly
raise a body of men, ho were totally incaable of doing the
thelis t listen
bestt o
means him.
most important duty they were about top entrust to them,
and which duty, indeed, they acknowledged they would not
give ethem ti
me to learn th discharge, whereas they
regularmight
readil ge tormY, ;the '
and obtdisciplined and easily recruited
array,` a • ea„e efficient body of
trained soldiers: • Why should 'they consolidate and
' not •
remodel thnt army of reserve which they
already possessed,
for the pension and battalion system did really constitute an
army of reserve.? For a here
: -- ..pension of difficulty, a
the :.Government might' without difficulty, raise
10,000: or 15,000 mete from
35 years of,
rn 28 to
age, who had all served ten or twelve years in the regular
grmy, n
a d thns obtain a • . of prime
n efficient force
soldiers before the raw levies of the intended militia had
mastered the goose-step. 'The
h sbe Deco.
- gap. that would t n . ,
sioned in the army could easily 'be fi u b recruiting.
It might be said' that this would be - dad ' .
Pn the regular
army of the best men •; but the d ' erre'
which this xiii,
was demanded was -eith or imaginary.
for
If merely
imaginary, it. might be atone e r. ised. If real,
to retain a man in England to di ntrely dismal].
opt important
duty of a ,soldier, that of' defenesien discharge the
country in the'Ks.:
prehension. of danger, could net b g his
tude of language
be called 'robbing the' army of y,. any lati, e
____;ees. He
maintained that by holdiug the 'a
I at man s erv""
f this half-
pension for half service they Inducement o
could f a large and
thus onn
most efficient difficult of reserve from-
the• regular army; ,
there would be no y wh p;„0 recruits,
atever in proea--
becauie the service el:mid easily hethat
popular .
rendered so
dismissal from it, instead °feather. , re
a boon, would
be esteemed a punishment: . b
s__lvregardeed
h Gasvernmen't only
hoped' to get 30,000 or 40,000 u
railiti t • Government
first year by
the bounty. They would hen to
0 amen in
the ballot, and
they would find in, the present
tteraresort toe
h üblic mind
that the practical evils of the bceper of t ‘ p
not be endured. 1
He had pointed out how they t would
obtain _e,
tu 000 or
12,000, men at once for an _ could
seee,—(Hear.)
Now . there were 30,000 pen:irraonrof reserve.-(Hear.)
.
16,000 to
Hp° of whom ' were ' 'of the -
efirsrift -class.; Of these
: could obtain • from
they Ip,ooo 12,00 U under'
fifty Nears of rage;' and th • 'l° ..
ese • added •to the others,
would furnish at least 24,000 youne. ee
nd prime soldiers,
infinitely preferable to 35,000 or 40:06-0en and
militia-
men. By
.the system of halrepensi
.linshort service they
could obtain 6,000 or 8,000 moree toen ever
ons for ,
v year from tne
regulararmy, and in a few in f " w would get too
this couetry. They act they
m any
P th emigration', enld, however, most judi-
ciousiy .
encourag- • e
or ood and'steady soldiers
and then' families to. the colonies.
~g
This- 9no theory, it
already hepractice. .Ameasueeil a wa
been adopted
was of 'the -Ordnance a already
by the Master
eta -New.. Zealand' ,lad
' which 'about 2,000
soldiers were gent
might raise 100flA". Australia, And North
America. We might raise '— or 12,000 men in this man-
andnee for the colonies, which would
Pew
e -glad to receive e em,
we might keep up the small •
enabled non. for political reasons.
Thus we would be . grclidually to Withdraw our own'
troops from the colonies, and to disband them when they
arrived in this country. lle had therefor •t d out a mode
might -establish an e e porn e
by which we
reserve composed
of prime sOldiers between and 35 years ne ' -if it was
thought necessary to maintain a force • so. , age. .
amount;
and the cost of clothing, arming; and
ruling
wouldtthttrisebstitutes,
amongst many, which had been propelled irtatead of this Bill.
But the Government chose' to adhere tothe original
old
militia- iorce of the Country? and sdid that thee -Bil t
1 was a s ep
in the right direction. ,Now, the old militia force was essen-
tially locel in,all respects. It wes raised and drilled tempo-
itshire, and
rarity in each coanty or shire, was neverunless moved out of
own county
broke out, amid th e_Ptlonal circumstances.
Waii however,
county to county, and from kingdom to .
kingdom, and, in
tial a second fact,,they beceme *Osten_
_...1)* annyee.so much so,
that in the year 1808 -the Government of the day formed
and organ'is'ed, out' of theold Vblimteer corpe of the year 1793
and 1804, a local classes, militia, composed of all
-asses, and trained
them round-their own homes.. That local militia was the true
representative of the old militia force of this t .coun, .
Now,
what would be the efficiency of the proposedlT militia
under the command ofethe
.Home-office? In the case of
invasion there were two methods byvhich
the regular troops
could be reinforced—either by additional regular troops, or
by the subordinate co .operation of regularly drilled batta-
lions, gathered by general volunteenng and levy en masse.
Both measures were highly beneficial, and in
case of ewer-'
gency highly necessary but they were essentially-distinct.
The one forceejoined the regular ermy, acted with it instan-
taneously, and afforded: time for the other force to be trained
disciplined. His objection to this Bill was, e
, that it and
mum-es, and was, like most of their leg' -
founded these two resources,
is •
vous compromise. It would
lation, ainost mischie never fur-
nishld t '
—lie won no say an army, In such, a
a body of troop,
several requirements essential• ' ee
force there were
whichWerethese : that it
sto its eiir<
ciency ; among
t,_
that it should be easily should be fit for
garrisonandtiell duty
it should have some cortnestld certainly
assembled—and Now, the
connexion with the
of the country.
' it Of the regular army , he Chancellor
spirit hit
t't
r had told •is cons 1 uents eat the hustings of the Exchemie . . .
d militia would be cheapbopular and- efficient. 1
that the pro Pose
But would this be so a have ? What would the militia h in com-
mon with the
regular troops? ,Nothing but • a red coat and discipline. Then, would it be opera-
tive? military
a semblance of told that without the ballot it
They were told
e, '
.. would- not
be popular? Tothis question the very
Thee, would it
ila was the reply. But,' to go beyond that
necessity lei a ballot
lee'bade Honourable Members look at ' the petitions which
House upon the ' subject. aby the Jed. Of these.
had been receive
of the ,measure, one ; one; signed-, as '
there Wag; ire- favour
`boys • in Derb - ,-
by fifteen:there were
he understood, • presented thatY' • "
lusive of those . night-IX.,
against-it--ext
them amounting in number to nearly
with signatures to
a quarter of a millions_(
Sear, hear.) So much for the
of which the Chancellor of ate
popularity of the measure,
Exchequer his Buckinghamshire ti-
- had boasted` toi

tuents. lie appealed from Philip in Buckinghamshire to
Philip in that Rouse.—(A laugh.) But he passed on to
ask, where were these men to he found for the militia?
It appeared to him that the demand for 80,00 would in
two years most dangerously affect the recruiting of the
army, and greatly narrow the surface whence those who
constituted our regular forces—our army, navy, and marines
—were to be derived. These militiamen were to be quartered
in provincial town:, in public-houses. Would not their 2s.
a day, subject to the expenses they would necessarily incur,
be lower wages practically than those given to a Dorsetshire
labourer? They would come once, perhaps, out of curiosity,
but it would be found very difficult to catch them a second
time. And they were to be drilled for three weeks, and
then suffered to roam about the country. Why, before they
could be called together again, they would have travelled
from one end of the country to the other=perhaps out of
the country. They might have got good, permanent, and
profitable employment at Liverpool or Manchester, or some-
where miles away. Would it not be cruel to drag them back
from that to their muster-roll for three weeks, so throwing
them out of work and losing them their engagements? And
what would this three weeks do for them? Would it make
them soldiers? Never; never so long as the Government
gave them only the discipline and only the Will which by
their,Bill they were prepared to do. The Chancellor of the
'Exchequer himself, taking Me common-sense view of the
question, had said on the evening of the 6th of May that it
would be madness to suppose these men capable of contend-
ing successfully with the armed legions of Algiers, of the
Caucasus. But was it not precisely against such disciplined
troops that they would have to contend?—(llear. ) Then
what was the use of the measure? Ile had shown that these
troops—these militiamen, he would not call them troops—
would be with difficulty collected, and when collected would
be fit for nothing—totally unfit, as had been confessed, to
resist a disciplined foreign invasion. These were the tests
to which it ought to be applied. 'But there was still the
argument that the militia, though not efficient for itself, was
so indirectly, inasmuch as it increased the efficiency of the
regular army, The whole of the regular army- we could
make available to defend our shores was 25,000, and it was

proposed to take 80,000 militiamen to make them more effi-
cient. He asked was it not monstrous for them to put this
country to the expense, the harassment, and the disorgani-
sation of doing thus,for the army what our present policemen
and pensioners, if organised, could do quite as well? He
asked, why should they not reject the measure? The neces-
sary consequence of their doing so would be a most desirable
one—that they should have time for calmer reflection. He
trusted, therefore, that Honourable Gentlemen =would con-
sider this, and would not fall into the silly delusion that it
was better to do something, anything, no matter what, than

not to legislate at all and at once upon the matter. It was
against such an error that he wished most especially to
guard them when he said that in their haste they might do
such wrong as would prevent them from doing right
hereafter. He asked them to take time for consideration.

Out of the mists of this discussion had already loomed the

• plain fact that we possessed 65,000 regular troops within
these three kingdoms. That stood ont clear from their dis-
cussion, and no man could deny it. Then they had 40,000
in dockyard and pensioner battalions ; 40,000 yeomanry and
constabulary. They had a navy which had never yet been
baffled or discomfited; they had about 1,300 steam-ships
capable of bearing guns. He asked, therefore for some pause.
He thought the public might sleep in peace (Hear)—and
this question be postponed for another year, and for more
ample investigation. At all events it ought not to be dis-
cussed on the eve of a dissolution, and under the auspices of
a provisional Government. The question, they must all feel,
had been sufficiently before the public to be certain to be
taken up in the next Parliament. Was it not reasonable to
suppose that it would be much better settled then than at
present? The subject of our steam navy, and the reserved
forces of our army and navy, bore most materially on this
question. On those questions a Committee was to be
moved for by his Hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for
Westminster, who was most anxious for an inquiry into the
condition of our steam navy and marine, and to know how
far the latter were applicable, in case of need, for purposes
of war. He again asked the •House to deal deliberately
and not hastily with this question; to refer it from a pro-
visional Government to an established one, and from a dying
Parliament to a living one. He concluded by moving that
the Bill be read that day six months.
Mr. MACKINNON seconded the amendment. In the
year 1642 this very question was before the House of Com-
mons, and on that occasion the measure was strongly opposed
by Hyde, afterwards Lord Clarendon—a man of high autho-
rity upon it. With regard to the expediency of this force,
he was not aware if any benefit had arisen from calling out
the militia. Was it, therefore, wise in the Government of
this country to decide upon calling out a militia force of
eighty thousand men, the more especially as offers had been
made by men who had a stake in the country to enrol them-
selves as volunteers? If they looked back to the two last
revolutions in France, they would find that they had been
effected principally by men who had been accustomed to the
use of arms. He did not mean to say that they had any
reason to be apprehensive of such a result in this country
from the embodiment of a militia ; but the fact he had alluded
to could not escape observation. If they really apprehended
any danger of an invasion, he would ask them why they
should not, in preference, increase their army and navy?
Suppose a force of forty thousand men invaded their coasts,
the invading force would be over half the country before a
militiacould be called together. Under all the circumstances,
he saw no use in their proceeding with this hasty measure,
and he felt that it would be more in accordance with the feel-
ings
of the country, that the further consideration of this Bill
should be postponed till that day three months.
Lord H. VANE would vote for the third reading, and
eventually for the motion of the Hon. Member for Lam-
beth, to omit the compulsory clauses. He agreed with the
mover and seconder of the amendment that this measure
had evoked a considerable spirit of hostility throughout the
country, but that was not a sufficient reason for negativing
it, if that House thought it necessary for the honour and
safety of the country. Looking at the fact that the pre-
ceding Government were pledged to some measure of the
kind, and that the present Government had introduced it
on their executive responsibility, he could not feel justified
in wholly opposing the Bill, but at the same time must ex-
press his regret that the Government insisted on the ballot-
tin; clause, which it would be his duty to oppose.
Mr. MACGREGOR said that public opinion out of doors
was entirely against the Bill, and therefore he wondered at
the hardihood of the Government in going to the country on
such a measure. In London the people had no apprelien-

sion when the funds were beyond par, and when enormous

sums of money were leaving every day for investment in
the public works of France. He believed that there never
was a period in the history of the latter country when they
were so desirous of maintaining amicable relations with us,
and he knew that the President felt that nothing could be so
dangerous to the stability of his own power as any rupture
with England. As to the other three great Powers—Russia,
Austria, and Prussia—their policy, especially since the death
of Prince Schwarzenberg, was one of peace, and of com-
pact defence, not against the French President, but against
the eventualities of another revolution. In such a state of
things, he thought that a more impolitic Bill had never
been introduced into that house.—(Hear, hear.) If in-
creased force were necessary, he would willingly consent
to the addition of 5,000 men to our marine force, and that
would be a much better defence than a body of men who
would only be bad soldiers and worse citizens. With
these views he felt bound to oppose the further progress of
the Bill.

-----
Mr..IIEADLAM intended to vote against the third read-
ing, and hoped that the House would concur with him in
rejecting the measure. At the same time he was willing to
admit that the Government had some excuse in the public
clamour, and in the act of their predecessors, and that in
their difficulty they had produced a measure as little objec-
tionable as poss:ble, but it was only an argument against
any measure of the description, that nothing better could
be produced. His objection to the voluntary portion of
this Bill was that it proposed to raise a regular force on
the least economical principle. He was willing to admit
that there was some argument for increased defence in the
improvement of- modern science and the increased facilities
of transit. He did not believe that there was any hostile
feeling towards us on the part of France; and if there were,
this Bill was so inefficient that it was a mere waste of
money. For these reasons he should give his vote against

the measure.
Mr: EWART said it was a paramount and insurmount-
able objection to a Ministerial measure that itf was
.inefh-
cient ; and this was so. Let the necessity
an increase
additional
defence be proved, and he would consent
He
e believed
d of
the regular army and of the artillery.
compared with past wars, future wars—from which II that,
defend us—would be infinitely more destructive. He Heaven
tended .that a militia force was not suited to the, tin-lee-own;
lived in. Adam Smith described it as a most barbarous
force ; and if the force was inapplicable to this country in
his time, it was much more so now. To constitute the best
military force, the principle of division of labour must be
acted upon, which was in favour of a standing army. He
was also opposed to this Bill, because it had two other Acts
engrafted upon it, that of George 111. and the Mutiny
nti Act,
which would authorise flogging in the militia. llef
that enlightened foreigners were disapproving of a militia
force in Prussia and Austria, and they said that it
would
found inapplicable here ; but taking the opinion of military
men men in our own country, they were all in favour of an aug-
mentation of the regular army. Considering that this Bill
would give neither a good nor an efficient force, he should
vote against it.
Sir H. VERNEY said the Bill would be useful as a
means of training the population to arms, which was
one of the most satisfactory measures of national defence
that could be adopted. He hoped the Secretory at War
would make such regulations as would prevent the ad-
mission of persons of bad character into the force. He
trusted encouragement would be given to the rifle corps,
who would prove most valuable soldiers. It was desirable
that the army should be increased by some rifle regiments.
He thought the guns formerly mounted in the s
manned.
towers ought to be replaced there, and tho tower
This might be done at a very trifling expense. The aug-
mentation in eaterl marines and navy was proportion-
ally much gr than in our own. It was said that ma-
rines were principally used for the protection of commerce,
but it should be remembered that France had very little
commerce to protect. There. were means of defence avail-
able to this country in its mercantile marine force; each
vessel might be made to carry one or more swivel guns
they and
this species of defence might also he applied to all har-
on the coast. Supposing the opponents of the ill to
be mistaken, and that the last and the present Gov9rnßment
were right in the apprehensions they entertained, it could
not be denied that this Bill would conduce to the safety of
the country. So long as we were assailable, it was the most
imperative duty of the Government to bringe
safety of the forward such
measures as they thought necessary for he
country; and to neglect to do so would expose them to na-
tional infamy. The Hon. Member for the West Riding had
said the question of national defences ought fo be submitted
to a Committee or, Commission ; and he hoped the -
ment would not lose sight of that suggestion.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said it appeared as
if the Go-
vernment had abandoned to the Hon. Member for Bedford
the defence of this Bill, and the responsibility of passing it
into law.—(Hear, hear.) . And he must add that if there
were no other reasons for the measure than those that had
been adduced by the Lion. Baronet, then the dislike with
which the country now regardedi: the
measure
heard a was
mu nore war-
t likely
to be lessened in future. He had never
like speech expressed iu blander terms than that which was
just concluded by the Hon. Baronet. Not content with
voting for the third reading of this Bill, the Hon. Gentle-
man called upon the Miuisters. to put the Martell° towers
in order—to produce the swivel. guns that had been laid
up since the last. war,. and then they might laugh to
scorn a French invasion.—(Hear, hear, and laughter )
He had been obliged to refer to what was t,aid argue Hi
Hon. Member for Bedford for want of any other
ments in favour of the measure ; and, whatever objec-
tions he might have to the. principle of this Bill, he wouldj
confess at once that he did not found those objections on the
views and principles of the Peace Society. But,at the
same time, he hoped he would never be found to under-
value the exertions or to impeach the motives of that truly
benevolent body of men. It was very easy to deride the
,
efforts and to laugh at the theories of those men but he
would remind Honourable Gentlemen that they thought so
novel and enthusiastic the products of a distempered ima-
gination were promoted by
some of the wisest andreatest
men of ancient times; by no less a person than Plato,
passing by the divine founder of our religion and coming
ing

,o ia.~`~ociar