The Sun.
London, England, 1864-07-02 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P.

HMIS'S OF LORDS—Last Evening,
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at the usual 'hour.

THIRD READINGS.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Anthony O'Reilly's Estate, Crieff and Methven Junction
and Branch Railway, Finchley, Wellesden, and Acton
Railway, and Londonderry Improvement.
JAPAN.
Earl GREY then rose to move the resolutions relative
to this subject, which have already appeared in The Sun.
The nohle earl said he thought the time had arrived when
the relations of the country with Japan should be taken
etexuestly• into consideration, and he had ventured to bring
forward the said resolutions. They did not imply cen-
sure on the Government, not because he approved of
their policy—tar otherwise. What was already done could
not be undone, but he felt that if he could induce their lord-
ships to come to an expression of their opinion upon the
matter by agreeing to his resolutions it would in a great
measure tend to diminish the dangers that might arise.
He had advisedly abstained from stating in his resolutions
the details of the modifications which he desired, because he
did not think it was for Parliament but for the Government
to lay down the details of our policy. The present seemed
to him a very favourable time for negotiations, because after
the recent destruction of Kagosima it was impassible the
Japanese should misconstrue our motives. It is desirable
for our own sake that we should enter on suchnegotiations
because although he did not think that we were so defence-
less as the Foreign Secretary seemed to think the other
night—(hear, hear)—it was still not desirable for us at th 3
present time to engage in warlike operations at a distance.
The first modification which ought to be made in the existing
treaty was the abolition of the clause which exempted Bri-
tish subjects in-Japan from the jurisdiction of the Japanese
law. But even if the principle of extra territoriality as ap-
plied ternesr subjects was retained at all, its application
should be confined within the narrow space required for
carrying on our trade. And within those limits means far
more effectual than existed at present should be provided for
the punishment of Englishmen who were guilty of outrages
against the Japanese. It was desirable to reduce and sim-
plify as much as possible the conditions of our treaty with
Japan, because there would then be a far greater chance
than at present that it would be observed. After adverting
to the amount of our naval force in the Chmese and Ja-
panese waters, the noble earl dwelt upon the expediency of
reducing it materially, both on account of the expense which
it entailed upon us, and on account of its tendency to keep
np a state of irritation between ourselves and the people of
those countries. It was in vain to expect that a profitable
commerce could be carried on, except between nations who
entertained mutual goodwill tor each other; and that could
never exist between England and Japan so long as the pre-
sent treaty was maintained. The noble earl concluded by
moving the adoption of an address to her Majesty.
Earl RUSSELL complained that the noble earl had
thrown very little light upon the means which he thought
ought to be adopted in order to improve our intercourse
with Japan. The noble earl aimed at subverting our whole
policy, in regard not only to Japan and China, but to all
Eastern nations. It was not true that our treaty with Japan
was extorted by intimidation on the part of Lord Elgin.
That noble lord had only a frigate and two gunboats with
him at the time, a force hardly sufficient for any such pur-
pose. Besides, other nations had made such treaties with
Japan before ; and others, again, had done so since. And
what had been the fruits of that treaty ? That in the course
' of a few years a foreign commerce to the extent of seven
'Milieus annually had sprung up with Japan. Did his noble
fiiend desire to stop that? Certainly not, for he said he de-
sired to see our commerce extended, but this could not be
done if we abandoned the treaty under which our present
commerce had sprung up. Then the noble lord objected to
the extra-territoriality clause under which British subjects
resident in Japan were placed under British and not Japa-
nese law. Bat such a clause was found in all our treaties
with Oriental nations. And it was necessary that we should
have a clause. For the laws of Japan were of a sanguinary
character; and what, he would ask, would be said in Eng-
land if we heard of English merchants being tortured or
disembowelled, or their relatives put to death by the Japa-
nese ? He thought that that would be far more likely to
lead to war than the present system. He deeply regretted
that the behaviour of Englishmen in Japan, as in China
and in India, was •very often of a very unsatisfactory cha-
racter. He had received only that morning a letter from Sir
F. Bruce, in which he complained of the insolence, the dis-
regard of native feeling, the want of courtesy, displayed by
Englishmen towards Chinese. These faults, and the disputes
and collisions to which they gave rise, could not be cured or
avoided by any alterations in our treaties. All that could be
done was to let Englishmen who offended know that they
would not be supported in improper and overbearing conduct
towards the natives ; and he trusted in timelthis wold lead
to an improvement in their bearing. England and English
policy was not responsible for the dissensions which pre-
vailed in China between the Tycoon, the Mikado, and the
Daimios. They arose from the desire of each of these indi•
viduals or classes to obtain ascendancy over the others. The
noble earl had severely blamed the conduct of Government
in exacting reparation for the murder of Mr Richardson ;
but he (Earl Russell) did not see the matter in that light.
Mr Richardson at the time of his murder was on a road
where by treaty he had a perfect right to be. The Govern-
ment thought that requited reparation; and as it was re-
fused, we took two vessels belonging to hint. Thereupon
his batteries opened fire; and he apprehended that when
that was done our fleet had no alternative but to return it.
They could not run away. And it had since turned out
that very few persons except the soldiers in the batteries
were killed ; while the town of Kagosima had been rebuilt,
and was now handsomer than ever. The result of the action
at Kagosima had been to impress upon the mind of Prince
Satsuma's followers a salutary conviction of our strength ;
and the Prince himself had since displayed towards us the
mow friendly feeling He believed, for his own part, that
a serious war was much more likely to arise from our suffer •
ing murders and outrages committed against Englishmen to
pass with impunity, than from premptly and fit mly exacting
reparation when it was due to us. His noble friend had
dwelt upon the mechanical ingenuity of the Japanese, and
ho hoped their tendency to profit by European inventions
would lead to friendly intercourse between us. He (Earl
Russell) did not, however, think that a proposition on our
part to alter the existing treaties would have that effect. So
far from conciliating the Japanese, it would lead them to
think we were weak and were afraid of them. And it was cer-
tain that if such an impression were entertained peace would
not be preserved. They certainly had not heard from the
noble earl (Earl Grey) of any modifications in those trea-
ties which could be advantageously effected. He was afraid
that for some time to come it would be necessary to keep a
considerable naval force in the Japanese waters. It was quite
possible that one of the Japanese parties would try to drive
foreigners out of the country. But he did not think that
we ought to suffer the stipulations of our treaty to he thus
overridden, and a stop to be thus put to an intercourse ad-
vantageous both to Japan and to ourselves. All that we
could do was not to alter and modify our treaties ; but to go
on steadily, quietly, and firmly, standing upon our rights,
and improving our friendly relations as far as possible. He
was quite certain that no good would be done by departing
from the principles which had hitherto governed our deal-
ings with Eastern nations. (Hear, hear.)
The Bishop of OXFORD had listened with great disap-
pointment to Earl Russell's speech. It did not remove any
of the apprehensions which had been excited in his mind
by Earl Grey's address. There could be no doubt that the
treaty of 1858 was made by the Japanese under a fear of
our power. This was distinctly stated by Sir Rutherford
Alcock, who also said that there was no party whatever in
Japan, which was favourable to foreign commerce, or to
permitting foreigners to enter the country. Nay, more ;
according to the same eminent authority, the distaste for
foreigners had deepened since the ports had been opened.
It might be true that Prince Satsuma had behaved towards
us
irea more friendly manner since the destruction of Kago-
toms ; but the fact was, that he and the other Daimioswere
preparing armaments and maturing projects for vengeance.
And so in the meantime both he and they naturally refrained I
from offending us. The most enlightened amongst the Ja-
Pause urged upon us that even if our measures were right,
we were attempting to go too fast, and to introduce changes
for which the Japanese were not prepared. He believed
that the effect of the policy we were at present pursuing
must, although ere did not intend it, be to reduce Japan to
a state of ungoverned anarchy- He did not believe that,
apart from our interference, there was any such dissen-
sion amongst the hiikaae the Tycoon, and the Daimios, as
was likely to interfere with the good government and
prosperity of the country. What would become of our
trade if Japan by our
policy were reduced to anarchy ? lie
felt with Earl Grey that, on the eternal principles, we had
no right, in the sight of God, to force on an independent
people by force of arms a commerce which they refused.
Ile believed that if we disregarded
Janice and violated right
retribution would be certain to overtake as.
The Duke of SOMERSET was understood to say that
whether or not the treaty of 1858 was obtained by force,
we could not go back to the state of things which
existed
previously ; not did he think that it was dt sirable M attempt
t.! make a new treaty. If we proposed to do anything of
the kind, it would, he believed, almost inevitably lead to
war. The noble earl had asserted that the English under-
tack to protect British subjects in every part of Japan, but
such was not the fact, as the protection only Extended to '
Yokohama and other places. It was also a mistake to
suppose that the Daimios had an objection to trade. The
truth was, that they were not averse to trade, but they
thought they ought to get some of the profits of it. Now,
as the old treats' could not be enforced, what would be the
Use of negotiating another? We had already secured
certain rights in Japan, which the Japanese themselves
admitted. So far from the burning of their towns having
had an evil effect, it had produced the best results, K ego-
sima was rebuilt in a few days. He had heard on trust-
worthy authority, that an establiShment for the education
of young ladies which was burnt down on the Monday was
built up again on the following Friday. (A laugh.) It
NV33 very difficult for us to deal with the Japanese, as we
were almost entirely ignorant of their habits and prejti-
dica. He thought our beat course would be to adhere to