The Sun.
London, England, 1852-12-11 00:00:00

852.

were going to attack—(hear) ; and I certainly did ima-
gine that, when a person of such influence, and the
organ of his party rose, a trial would have been taken upon
the issue, which I certainly, representing the Govern-
ment, should extremely deprecate. One hon. gentleman,
although he sits on the opposite benches, made an ex-
cellent speech in favour of the policy of the Government ;
and we certainly manifested no desire to throw any ob-
stacle to the due progress of public business. . Sonic
other hon. gentlemen expressed their opinions upon this
subject, and then the right hon. gentleman the member
for the University of Oxford rose and entered into argu-
ments which, if I answered in detail, would lead me to a
complete vindication of the policy of the Government,
and certainly entirely prevent you, sir, from leaving the
chair with the view of the house resolving itself into
committee. I must refrain from any replies in detail to
the right hon. gentleman. (Hoar, hear.) The right
lion. gentleman has made one charge against me.
He said that my estimated surplus was a fictitious
surplus. He said that it is entirely the produce of
borrowed money. I do not think that this is exactly the
time when I ought to go into a minute detail upon that
subject. I can only say that it appears to me that the
right bon. gentleman has addressed the house in com-
plete ignorance of the facts hearing upon this question
—(loud cheers)—and that, instead of its being borrowed
money, it is money that has been paid out of the revenue
of the country.
Mr. GLADSTONE—Hear, hear.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No
other course could have been taken. I think I shall
show to the satisfaction of the country that not one
shilling of that money is borrowed money. (Hear,
hear.) I think I shall show that I have good reasons
for the course which I recommend. I hope that I shall
be able to obtain a sanction of the estimate that I have
offered to the house ; and I also hope to be able to lay
before the house certain facts which will lead to a great
improvement in the mode in which we keep the public
accounts of this country. I ant persuaded when my
statement comes to be laid fairly before the house, I shall
establish, to the satisfaction of; I believe, the majority
of this house, that the course I am recommending is a salu-
tary course. (Ministerial cheers.) Well, then, sir, the
right hon. gentleman appears to he offended that I did
not adopt the advice which lie offered to me the other
night on this subject. No man had a greater respect
than I have for the right hon. gentleman. There is no
man probably in this house who is more ready than my-
self to admit his abilities, but I do not think that I am
treating hint disrespectively when I say that in conduct-
ing the business of the Government I shall follow that
course which I myself think is right. (Cheers.) -Sir,
the right hon. gentleman has alluded to the course which
I took with reference to the income and property tax
when that tax was only voted for a year. Sir, I think
the cases are perfectly dissimilar. When I brought for-
ward that motion, the income and property tax was re-
ferred to a committee. (Hear, hear.) It was then under
the investigation of a committee. It was extremely doubt-
ful what would be the result of the inquiries of that com-
mittee, or rather, I should say, the impression was that
the report of that committee would probably be fatal to the
continuance of the income and property tax. There is not a
single person in this house, wherever he may sit, or what-
ever may be his opinions, who has the slightest doubt that
a sum of money equal to that produced by the income and
property tax will be produced this year by a 13,w of the same
kind. (Hear, hear.) Whether the principles which I
la;d down, or those laid down by the resolution submitted
by the my hon. friend the member for Montrose, will be
adopted, may be a question, but that a sum of 5,000,0001.
or more will be raised this year by the income and property
tax no man has the slightest doubt. (Hear.) Well then,
the right hon. gentleman says I ought to take the
course which is usually taken by Chancellors of the E -
chequer on bringing forward financial statements. Now,
I want to know whether there is any similarity between
the circumstances under which the present Government is
placed, and the ordinary position of a Chancellor of the
Exchequer, who has to bring forward the ordinary finan-
cial statement of the year ? Why, have we not been
taunted from the very beginning by complaints that we were
evading the bringing forward of our measures. (Ministerial
cheers) And the most vulgar insinuations not heard, of
course, in this house, were made, that we were clinging to
office, and evading its responsibility. But we came forward
and indicated the policy that we reconnnended. The policy
that we recommended was, at least, at distinct policy. We
said we wished to assimilate the financial system of this
country to the new commercial system which is now
universally acknowledged and established. I had, on
the part of the Government, to bring forward the mea-
sures wh;ch they thought necessary for that purpose ;
and I am taunted and told that I ought to have followed
the miserable routine of commonplace circumstances.
(Ministerial cheers and. Opposition laughter.) I ant per-
suaded that the course I have taken is the right course.
I feel persuaded that we ought not to avoid a fair and
frank encounter 'on the policy that we reconmiend. We
have endeavoured to place that policy without reserve
before the house. There is nothing that we less shrink
from than the decision ; 'and I hope, sir, now that you
are about to leave the chair, a decision will soon he
arrived at. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE wished to ask the Chancellor
of the Exchequer one question. He understood on a
former occasion that the right honourable gentleman
stated that her Majesty's Ministers intended to stand or
fall by the financial scheme which he then proposed
—that the house was to accept or reject the budget,
the whole budget, and nothing but the budget ?
He (Mr. Duncombe) therefore inferred that they
were not now about to resolve theniselves into com-
mittee for the purpose of amending the budget, but that
it must either be swallowed or rejected as a whole.
(Laughter.) Was he right in putting that construction
upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement ?
(Divide.) Did the right hon. gentleman intend to treat
that house as a deliberative assembly, and permit them
to amend his budget ? If he did, then, he (Mr. Dun-
combe would not persist in dividing the house. (Divide.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I rise to say that, as my hon.
friend has stated a doubt whether he shall divide the
house, if he thinks proper to divide the house, I cannot
take that course with him ; but I shall be ready to go
into a committee of the whole house upon the proposition
of the right hon. gentleman. I will only say, therefore,
that I suppose he will expect that when we go into com-
mittee we shall not merely discuss the single proposition
which may be before the house, but that, having un-
folded a plan on Friday last, and having for fully five
hours explained the policy of the Government, he must
expect that the whole of the plan shall be discussed when
we go into committee. I certainly do not find fault
with the right hon. gentleman for having brought
forward a plan which he thinks for the benefit of
the country. He has certainly redeemed his pledge
that no time should be lost in bringing it forward, and I
must say, that with portions of it I agree, however much
I object to the greater part of it.
Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would give an answer to the question of his
honourable friend the member for Finsbury—(divide)--
as on the answer to that question might depend a con-
siderable number of votes on that (the Opposition) side
of the house. He had no wish to vote with his honour-
able friend the member for Finsbury if he was mistaken
in the construction which he had put upon the Chancey
for of the Exchequer's statement upon former occasions
but it was an insult to that house, and to the country -
[the honourable and gallant gentleman being here in
terrupted by loud cries for a division, exclaimed, amid
repeated bursts of laughter—" I observe that the hon.
member for Sunderland (Mr. Hudson) is interrupting
me at an hour of the evening (half-past six o'clock) when
he has no excuse for such conduct," and resumed}—but
it was an insult to that house, and to the country, to be
told that the budget must be accepted as proposed by
the Government. He called upon the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to give a distinct answer to the question of
his honourable Friend the member for Finsbury, and in
the event of his refusal, he advised Mr. Duncouribe to
divide the house. He hoped that if the house went to
to a division, honourable members would testify by their
votes their opinion of the conduct of the Government on
this important occasion. (Hear, and much confusion.)
Mr. HUDSON rose, amidst s scene of considerable
disorder, and said—Having been personally alluded to
by the hon. member for Middlesex (Mr. 13. Osborne), I
get up to answer his imputation. Ido not understand
his imputation, nor do I understand what he means
when he chooses to make use of such language. The
mputations which he throws upon me it is his custom
o throw upon others as well ; but I tell him there is no-
body who more defies his imputations than I do—
Jaughter)- and there is no man who is more ready
to meet him here or elsewhere than I am. (Confusion,
and cries of "Order." I am sure I do not intend to
he out of order ; but I cannot understand what the
hon. member means. I have now done with the hon.

member.
Mr. B. OSBORNE—Oh ! I accept your apology.
(Laughter.)
Mr. HUDSON—I am not unwilling to return any
friendship the hon. member may think fit to express,
but I trust the hon. member will not again indulge 111
any suchirOarks as he has made to-night. I now wish
to address myself to the main question—(a laugh)—
namely, whether this motion should be withdrawn or
not. I think that the lion. member, having made it, is
bound to divide upon it, and, for my part, ''l am quite
ready to go to a division on the question.
Mr. HUME was of opinion that the question to which
the hon. members for Finsbury and Middlesex were so
anxious to obtain a reply had been answered already.
He apprehended that it was perfectly understood, on
both sides of the house, that upon each and every one of
the votes proposed by the Government, whether with
respect to the house tax, the malt tax, or the tea duties,
hon. members were to have an opportunity in committee
of submitting any amendments they pleased. (Hear,
hear.) He trusted that, under these eircumstmices, his
hon. friends would .perceive that the very best course
that the house could pursue was to go, with as little de-
lay as possible, into a committee of ways and means.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,--I beg
the house to believe that I have no desire to ansswe r,
otherwise than in the most satisfactory manner
ln
power, any qu,ptions that any hon. member may think
fit to put to 'me. (Cheers.) I thought there was t
most distinct understanding on all sides of the housel
as to the course to be pursued on this subject ; and
if I had had any doubt as to the existence of such
an understanding, it would' have been. dispelled by the
remarks which have fallen this evening from the noble
lord the member for London, who appeared
as well aware of the true state of to be quite
se
could be at this side of the house. With.arespectasany one
to the
statement I had the honour to make thisda
am sensible that it may have been too long, ir wmteiekl
it was
not longer that I felt it consistent withugm, y duty to-
wards the house and the country to make it ; but, when