The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-21 00:00:00

W Ei)N E iii A.---i:

-77- -

going to allow officiate connected with the Government
to go fishing for a few anti-Catholic votes, while they
themselves avoided committing themselves on the ques-
tion. Such a position would be a most unworthy one
for the Government to stand to, and before the conversa-
tion ended, he hoped the Noble Earl would give them
some clear explanation on the subject.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE wished to know
whether there was to be an injury on the subject?
The Earl of DERBY—AII I said was, that the con-
struction to be put on the speech of the Solicitor Gene-
ral was, that an inquiry was to be moved for, not by the
Government, but by a private Member.
-Earl GREY—Does the Noble Earl adhere to the
opinions he expressed in 1845?
The Earl of DERBY—I do not think the question is
one which the Noble Earl has a right to ask or any
other person,—(Cheers.) I can only say that I have
been greatly disappointed with the results of the mea-
sure of 1845—(Renewed shiers.)
The Earl of MINTO—The Noble Earl has said that
he had no intention, as at present advised, to alter the
arrangement with respect to Maynooth. Supposing that
the Noble Earl spoke for himself, I should like to know
whether, in the event of such a proposal coming from
some other quarter, the Noble Earl will be prepared on
the part of tne Government to resist it?
of Tan he Einteanrtl of
ion DERBY
e—lf forththee Noble Earl
repealofthe Actgiveosf noticelB4 5,
I will be prepared to state the course which Government
would pursue.—(Cheers and laughter.)
The Earl of HARROWBY said he might ask the
Noble Earl (Earl of Minto) if he entertained the
same opinions now • which he did in 1845
(Laughter.) For his own part, he wished to see a full
investigation of the subject by a Committee. The ob-
ject of the endowment was to ensure a loyal
Roman Catholic priesthood for Ireland. The
q place was, had Maynooth pro-
cincesetdio a n in the first
loyal priesthood for Ireland, or was it breeding
up a priesthood, not only for Ireland, but for the colo-
nies and Englan4 also?—(gear.) It that was so the
question would be materially altered. The withdrawal
of the grant would be a grave step, and he did not say
that it would not be better still to continue it, but he
required investigation. He believed that several misre-
presentations had been made at the time when the Bill
of 1845 was proposed. He did not believe that the po-
verty
,of the college was such as it had been represented.
He did not believe that the students were suffering from
the privations stated by Sir Robert Peel, and he had con-
siderable doubts whether the funds for the education of
Roman Catholic priests for Ireland were appropriated
GREYtha thought
tpaorpugoshet— the Noble
Earl
for
Noble Lord had taken a
solelyeo mew ha t unusual course.—(A laugh.) He was not
aware that he had ever expressed an opinion as to the
results of the Act of 1845. At that period he was a
Member of the other House and
on the subject. He had
and ho had no recollection
of ever having made anyspe
supported the measure certainly not so much from any
expectation of immediate results, but from its being
held out as a ceneiliatery measure to the Roman Ca-
tholics of Ireland, and which he believed would be
accepted by them in that spirit. He had always thought,
and still thought; that the state of things with
reference to the endowments of the Church of Ireland,
was one which could not, and ought not permanently, to
remain. The great hody
established was one of of the people were Roman
Catholics, and the Church
ex-
treme wealth—(oh)—he would not say extreme, but of
great wealth, derived in a
great measure from the en-
dowments possessed by the Roman Catholic Church
300, or 400 ye are ago, and which, the Roman Catholics
thought they ought still to possess. That wealth had,
however, been transferred to the Church of the minority,
and formed the means for providing religious instruction
for that minority, composed of the more wealthy classes
There were at the same time Parliamentary endow-
ments for various classes of Protestant dissenters in Ire-
land, but except the annual grant to Maynooth no pro-
vision was made fer the spiritual instruction of the great
mass of the people. It appeared to him then, and it
still appeared to him, that this anomalous state of things
ought not to continue. lf the situation of matters were
t et
reversed, and Ireland had not a majority of Roman
establishment of a different
Ca-
tholics, he, as an Englith Protestant, would not rest con-
tent
untilhe hem state of things. It was with such views that he had sup-
ported s: t°uer7t ;e bd
at to sly he had any confident
opinion that any good system of education would be se-
cured by the establishment of Maynooth, or that he
had any confident opinion the measure would work any
marvellous good, was quite contrary to fact. It was
tendered in that form and he accepted it.—(tlear, hear.)
Now, he hoped his ,Noble Friend would admit he had
pretty clearly explained his opinions. Those opinions
might be right or wrong; but if wrong he had not
shrunk from fairly and honestly explaining them. If
wrong he had held them in the other House of Parlia-
ment, and the dame opinions had uniformly guided him
grace he bad a seat in their Lordship's House.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was, like his Noble
Friend (Earl Grey), about taking an unusual course—
he was about to answer a question which bad not been
put to him. His Noble Friend opposite had said his
question was put to those who supported Sir R. Peel in
his Msynooth policy as to their motives and expecta-
tions in giving that statesman their support. Having
been one of those who had strenuously supported the
measure he felt bound to state, though he did not ex•
cilude from his consideration the hope the Noble Lord
adverted to, that it would produce a favourable effect on
the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy, it was not
in the hope of producing that effect that he gave his
support to the measure. He looked to no such bargain
as the Noble Lord seemed to think was the case. He
did not adopt from the Noble Lord that ground
assigned for the measure, but he adopted the
ground assigned by Sir R. Peel, that it was important
to the Protestant people of England that the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy should have a good education. This was
an object not dear to Roman Catholics only, but dear to
ever t/ member of the community composing the country
at large, who, not being able to ignore or to prevent the
existence of the Catholic religion in Ireland, had a deep,
common, and lasting interest in education being con-
ducted according to the approved forms of the Catholic
Church, and subject to the inspection and observation of
the Government authorities. That was the ground on
which he supported the measure—that was the ground
of that statesman—and he should be glad to know if his
Noble Friend (Lord Harro why) saw any reason for
changing his opinion in that respect. He also supported
the measure on a ground not adverted to by the Noble
Lord, but which he thought important at the time—
namely, that it had been found necessary for a period of
30 years, by every Minister, and by every Government,
to come down to Parliament, and year after year to raise
the question, and to place themselves under the neces-
sity of calling upon Parliament to do that which
Parliament had always been reluctant to do, and
which, bad always created strife and opposition; that
he saw in the measure a provision for a standing
grievance flag inconvenience which excited strife,
political disputes, and irritation, and that therefore he
for one felt oblised to the Government of the day,
headed by Sir R. Peel, and supported by the Noble Lord
opposite, for the menus they took, as far as lay in their
power, to put an end for ever to these circumstances,
calculated as they were perpetually to renew and keep
open the sense of grievance, which it was the object of
all wise Goyernments to cover over, to palliate, and, if
possible, to obliterate. He supported tbe measure on
those grounds, and seeing as he did the immense import-
ance of avoiding the constant recurrence of mischievous
discussions on the subject in or out of Parliament, he ad-
jured Alia Noble Lord and Government not to hastily
adopt a course calculated to lay the foundation once more
for a perpetual renewal of those annual votes and discus-
sions, its must be the case if the old policy was resumed.
If this vote was annuilly proposed, it would renew and
perpetuate all the evils to which he had alluded. He had
thought it right to state these matters to the House. He
had supported the measure on the grounds he had stated,
and he was prepared to support it again, not because he
thought it. would have the affect of augmenting the
loyally of the Reuaan Catholic priesthood, bat because
it was best for "the public at large. Of this he was sure,
that the loyalty of the Catholic priesthood would not be
increased by a withdrawal of the vote.
The Bishop of CA.SHEL protested against the state-
ment made by -the Noble Earl (Earl Grey), that the
Cnurch property was obtained at the Reformation, and
handed over to the Protestant hierarchy. No such
thing happened. Of the R nnen Catholic Bishops at the
Refermatieu the greater number embraced the Reformed
faith, and continued in their sees. It was no more the
fact that the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland were
robed of theitepropereet to be handed over to the Prn-
testant priesthood, than the Roman Catholic priesthood
in England were robbed •of their property to have it
handel over to Protestants. The property in bath cases
passed the same way. The Church property in both
countries was not given to the Roman Catholic clergy
because they tverellt linen Catholics, but given for the
maintenance of religious truth.- The Church of England
and the Church of Ireland stood on the same ground,
and any Noble Lord who stood up and accused the
Protestants of Ireland of robbing the R mean Catholics
of Ireland made the same accusation against the Pro-
testants of Eneland. No doubt, as the Noble Lord had
said, there was a larger number of Roman Catholics in
Ireland than there were Protestants; bat the Protestant
Churph of Ireland had heen endeavouring, not without
success, to brieg the light of a parer religion to the
Irish Roman Catholics. - It was a singular fact that the
majority of the people of Ireland who went to tho land
of liberty—Anserioa—te be freed from the persecutions
of priests and •hb
neig oars, conformed to the Protestant
Church. From the Quarterly Review ho collected these
facts : —Toe population of America was 23,000,000;
3,000,000 of that number were Irishmen born in Ireland;
4,500,000 were of Irish descent; and of the whole
number of 7,500,000 Irish in America, the annals of the
Propaganda only claimed 1,663,000; thus showing how
many Irishmen received the truth through the instruc-
tion given by Protestant ministers.
Earl GREY atssrted his statement was correct respect-
ing the Rumen Catholic Church property in Ireland. The
case of England and Ireland tsas certainly alike, but with
thiS difference, that in England the locks and prelates
went over to the Rsformed religion ; but in Ireland it
was only the prelates who went over. He was one who
conceived that Church property was held, not for the
benefit of the priesthood, but for the benefit of their
flocks; and he could not therefore conceive that the pre-
sent arrangement of matters was beneficial to the mass
of the people of Ireland. It 'was a etrange statement,
that which had been made by the Right Rev. Prelate
about the large number of Irish in America who con-
formed to the Protestant religion. He believed the
statement was.correct, and the only reason why the same
effect did.not Occur in Ireland was in consequence of the
injustiee'pt the arrangement which had prevailed for
, three or four centuries, and which had proved the oh-
' stacle to the spread of the inherent truths of Protes-
tantismamoag the people of Ireland.
Taetolahiret then dropped, and their Lordships ad-
journed.