The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-10 00:00:00

IMPJRIAI

:AMEN T

ROUSE OF COMMONS, June 9.

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
EPISCOPAL AND CA PIT ULAR REVENUES,
&e. BILL.

The Marquis of BLANDFORD moved the second
reatling of this Bill.
Mr. WALPOLE considered the state of the session
woil not admit of their going into a discussion upon a
me are of this extensive nature, even if there
was nothing in the provisions calling for particular ob-
jection. Since the Bill had been introduced he had con-
sulted the highest authorities in the Church, as well as
others who took an interest in the subject, and he was
now prepared to say the. Government would undertake
the consideration of the state of the cathedral bodies and
institutions, so as to place them generally on a more
satisfactory footing, and to make them more practically
useful than they were at present in regard to spiritual
instruction and education. Under those circumstances
he hoped the Noble Lord would consent to the order for
,the second reading, being now read and discharged.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD said he had ex-
peoted that the Government would have made some de-
claration with regard to the Bill.
Jar. WALPOLE did not think the House ought to
"dame the Government to any details,—(flear.)
Mr. SLANEY heard the statement or the Secretary
for the Home Department with great satisfaction, and
he trusted the Noble Lord would accept his offer and
withdraw the Bill.
After a few words from Sir B. BRYDGES,
Mr. WALPOLE pointed out the four heads of the
BIC and said it was the wish of the Government to re-
lieve as much as possible those who held high offices
in the Church from all duties of a worldly
.and tem-
poral nature.—(Hear, hear.) The spirit in which
the Government proposed to proceed was to con-
sider whether these great cathedral establishments
_
might not be more fully restored to the high and holy
purposes for which they were originally founded and
endowed, viz., as temples for the daily worship of the
councils to assist
Almighty Being, as seats of learning, as
the bishops in several matters relating to their dioceses, and
beingae
h o 1 thet e
general Church
conoecting links between the higher and lower of
the clergy. so as to bring the
whole body
in perfect harmony.—(Cheers.) That
t
view of the Government, he thought it would be prema-
ture for the Howe to prejuslge the question by binding
Shem to any particular details.—(Hear.)
Lord EBRINGTON was
glad to hear that the Go-
vernment intended to take the whole subject of the Bill
into their serious consideration.
,Sir R. Hs INGLI3 thanked the Secretary for the Home
Department for the general view he had given of the in-
tentions of the Government, and concurred in the de-
sirableness of not continuing the present discussion now
'het there was a general opinion in the House that the
BRI ought not to be pressed.
' Lord R. GROSVENOR also expressed his gratifies-
con at hearing the declaration of the Right Hon. Gen-
Stamen.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS hoped, in any measure which
might be proposed, provision would be made to prevent
any clergyman being appointed to a bishopric in Wales
who was not acquainted with the Welsh language.
Sir BENJAMIN HALL considered that unless the
management of ecclesiastical property was placed in
Commission, and the salaries of Bishops and other
functionaries in the Church, the existing abuses
would still be continued. He hoped the Govern-
ment would see there was a disposition and de-
termination an the part of the laity to insist not
only on reforms in the manner in which the
ecclesiastical body performed their duties, but that
a full and searching inquiry should be instituted
into the temporalities of the Church, not with the
view of depriving her real and efficient servants
of good and sufficient incomes, but with the intention of
effecting necessary reforms. If the Government did not
yield to the voice out of doors, and propose a measure
well calculated to remedy abases in the Church, matters
would come to a much more serious pass than was now
contemplated.
Mr. HORSMAN said, though the Noble Lord would
act judiciously in not pressing the Bill, he thought they
should have an opportunity to discuss the subject, in
order that the Government might know what was the
deneral opinion of the House. It was impossible to
elay the question, for the ecclesiastical system was ap-
proaching a crisis, and if the Government shrunk from
the danger and tried to remedy the abuses the time for re-
form would soon pass away. Public opinion was already
matured and explicit as to the condition of the cathedral
establishments, as to the management of episcopal and
oapitular estates, and as to the present condition of the
episcopate. A fixed income for bishops was infinitely
preferable to the existing system of payment; and as
the Queen had given up her estates in return for an
annual vote, and as judges and other public function-
aries were paid by a fixed salary, he saw no reason why
the episcopal body should object to receive their
incomes from the Crown or a Royal Commission.
Ecclesiastical law was the exception to the reform which
had taken place in all other branches of the law, and that
because it had been left in the hands of the Bishops
themselves, who had proved that they were ill adapted
for that duty. The principle of reform of existing
abuses must meet with the general concurrence of the
House, and the abases existing is the ecclesiastical law
matt be reformed in spite of tee dignitaries of the Church.
Mr. OSWALD was of opinion that no reform
really beneficial to the Church of England
could take place without the concurrence cf that
Church itself. By the Constitiation of this country, the
Church of England had had a corporate body of its own
members to regulate its own effeirs and it was the duty
of the House to provide for the efficiency of that body,
but, at the same time, no good cud would be attained by
Parliamentary Commite_es attempting to regulate the
affairs of the Church. It should be remembered that the
Church of England was only a part of the great Angli-
can Chuseb, and that in all other parts of th© world
where that system obtained, representative assemblies,
duly constituted, existed, and this materia;ly prevented
what in Engl and was frequently called priestcraft. It
was his strong opinion that this House had nu right to
interfere with the in:ernal affairs of the Church of Eng-
land.

Mr. S. HERBERT thought the Noble Lord would do
well to frankly acclat the proposed of the Government.
The conciliatory tone and moderation of view of the
Secretary for the Home Department convinced him
there was no man in whose hands they might better
trust this important question for adjudication.—(Hear.)
But the subject was obviously beset by very great diffi-
culties, and if the Government attempted to deal with
it they must exercise very great forbearance. The
questions to be considered were, the extension of the
episcopate, the diminution in the number of chapters,
the abolition of the office of dean, and likewise the
restitution to the chapters of the especial duties which they
were originally intended to perform. He was not one
who thought the proposed increase of the episcopate
was too large, but there was a strong objection in that
House to augment the number of Biseops in the House
of Lords, and most of the modes suggested for carrying
out the increase were open to objections. In regard to
the payment of Bishops, he thought the system, as it
now stood, was meet objectionable, for in fact they were
merely land agents to the Ecclesiastical Commission over
largo estates, from which they derived no benefit be-
yond the fixed income of their sees, and the qaantity of
secular business imposed upon them could have no other
effect than toisolate them from the other ranks of the
ic clergy.tAs to the request that no one should be insti-
tuted
thue a benefice in Wales except he under-
stood Welsh language, he thought that more
likely to interfere with the vested rights of patrons.
But still if vested interests were considered in a too
eeolestie
lawyer-lal reiike sporte.t it would considerably interfere with
Tho Marquis of BLANDFORD noticed briefly some
of the points urged in the.
eourse of the discussion, and
repeated the explanation as to the object and scope of
the Bill, which. he laki given on a former occasion, ob-
serving that, in
.oruaerh te maintaM the unity of the
Church, he had tho_ge tit necessary to preserve its epis-
cflattateehe
Ihry intimating that, in
c°1)11 elleuhrgtoef.whHat healconconsequ from the Government,
g
he would withdraw the Bill.
The order of the day was then read and dischar ed.
MANAGEMENT CLAUSES OR TRE COM MITTEE
ON EDUCATION.
Sr R. H. INGLIS asked the s"rtt srY of State for
the Heine Department, whethe r th ,
"
? Committee of Privy
auncil on Education was prepared to %dole
an
on of the management disuses? Y relax-
Mr.. WALPOL said the Committeete man Prepared a
had
minute, admitting the relaxation of h
fn one respect, which was a very
tim e a
portsein‘igtilt outclauses
; ,ed
copy of it would be laid on the ab,
sBoona ne it was
finally settled.
Sir it. H. INGLIS—Then, is it not settled?
Mr. WALPOLE—The wording i 3 not settled,
. COUNTY ELBC ritoNs POLLS BILL. •
On the motion of Lord R. GROSVENOR for going
into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. PACKE moved that the House go into Committee
can ibis Bill this day six months. He denied that the
excuse, that bribery was practised on the second day of
county elections, Was a true one. There were in England
awl Wales 79 county elections, and as at a general elec-
tion they would al take place within a few days of each
other the effect of this Bill would be to disfranchise a
yea number of county electors, which it was whispered
the ill was intended to do by a side-wind. The Noble
Lor
.had given notice that it was his intention to enlarge
the time from four to six o'clock; but he would ask,
would it not often happen that the poll would 130
taken for a couple of hours in the dark, and he need not
point out the abuses to which this practice would lead.
The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon had, on
a former occasion, voted against a measure of this sort,
as indeed had the Hon. Member for the West Riding
of Yorkshire (Mr. Denison), whose name he was now
surprised to see at the back of the Bill. He saw, too,
that the name of the Hon. Member for Manchester
(Mr. Bright was at the back of this Bill • and he, too,
when Mgriaber for Durham, had spoken against
and opposed this Bill in a former session. If
.likie Noble Lord would consent to bring up
a clause to enable non-resident voters to vote by proxy,
he would have no objection to support the Bill. As it
stood, however, ho should move that the House go into
Committee on the Bill this day six months.
Mr. H. BAILLIE was proceeding to say fiat as the
county which he ilepresented (Inverness-shire) was pe-
culiarly circumstanced, he hoped if he made out a case
he should obtain the assent of the Noble Lord to exempt
that county from the Bill, vfhen, being informed that the
Bill did not extend to Scotland,' he gave way to
since the
Mr. ALCOCK, who said that increased
swigs d locomotion he thought -
whatever in taking the polls in counties in one day.
Mr. WALPOLZ said he thought this qaestion most
ihaterially affected the county Members, and it would be
better to leave it to then!, rather'l
h thaie to take it by % Government question. ' fre souiTll6% therefore,' be
a$
disposed to oppese going into Committee, bat he must