The Sun.
London, England, 1864-11-07 00:00:00

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end to these divergences was to exchange fresh:
explanations in presence of the Emperor, This is
what we did yesterday morning.
We opened the conference by reading the report
of M. Nigra, and I communicated my despatches,
to which his Majesty deigned to give his nppreba.,
tion. The Italian Minister subsequently read a
letter which he had addressed on the 30th of the
same month to the Minister for Foreign Aftdra of
King Victor Emmanuel, and which, while laying
down the engagements contracted by the Turin
Cabinet, replies to the observations which his de.
patch of the 1,5:h of September had su4gested to
me. I restated our former expianationi, and again
took up the examination of the various points
summed up in my despatch of the 3'3o', which I
confirm, and to which I refer. We were agreed
upon e!uh of thESO points, and nave stated the fact
in a telegraphic desp ,tch,w hich the Minister of Italy
immediately forwarded to his Clurt.-1 am, ,

PRICF ...4d.
STAMPED ....sd.

America only exists upon Yankee sufferance, and
will fall into the Federal Union as soon as it is
worth the while of the Federal Governwent to seize
it, are rapidly converting the former indifference of
the colonists into indignation and aversion.

The Convention of the 15th of September.

-

The Monitcur publishes the following :

" The documents communicated to the Italian
Parliament have been the subject of comments in
the French as well as in the foreign press which
tended to misrepresent the meaning of the Corivents
lion of the 15th of September. The Government of
the Emperor and that of the King of Italy have
found it necessary to assure themselves of the con-
formity of their views by a new exchange of commu-
nications. The documents which we publish prove
the perfect good faith of the explanations recipre.
cally given on the subject, and the agreement which
has resulted therefrom."

DROUYN D 4 LFIUYS."

:REUTER'S kXPRESS.)

PARIS, Nov. G.
The following telegram and despatch have just
been publiehea here :

" TELFGEAM SENT TO HIS EXCELLENCY GENERAL LA
MARMORA BY THE ITALIAN MINISTER, WITH THE
AUTHORIZATION OF THE FRENQII GOVERNMENT.

The llioniteur then gives Chevalier Nigra's de-
spatch, which has already appeared in our columns,
and the following despatches from M. Drouyn de
Lhuys:—

" Paris, Nor. 1.

"My despatch of the 15th of September has given
rise to various interpretations, which have caused
the despatches of the Emperor's Minister for Foreign
Affairs. It follows from the loyal explanations which
have been exchanged between his Excellency and
myself that if the King's Government confines itself
before the Chamber within the limits of my de-
spatch of the 15th of September, completed by my
despatch of the 30th of October, it will not be dia%
avowed by the Imperial Government.

" THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE EMPEROR

TO M. LE BARON DE MALARET) MINISTER OF FRANCE
AT TURIN.

" Paris, Oct. 30, 1864.
" Monsier le Baron,—Yesterday I invited M. to
Chevalier Nigra to an interview.to speak to him re•
specting his despatch of Sept. 15. I commenced
by reading to him the note which I had addressed
to you, which you will have communicated to Gene.
ral La Marmora, as well as to M. Minghetti, and
which is the simple summary of a conversation
which I had a few days previously with the Minis-
ter of Italy.
" In the actual situation of affairs the Cabinet of
Turin has alone the right to speak. While it was
presenting its diplomatic documents to the Parlia•
went, we maintained a silence the motives for which
it must have appreciated; we did not wish, by
giving publicity to a contradictory discussion on
the meaning of the Convention, to throw obstacles
in its way, or to deprive it of the merit of any loyal
declarations of which it might desire to have the in-
itiative. But our reserve and our discretion towards
the public imposed upon us the imperative duty of
entering without reticence into au exchange of ideas
with the Italian Government, so as to dissipate
equivocations, prevent misunderstandings, and
give to the acts of the 15th of September an
interpretation which the two contracting parties
could admit.

" NIGRA."

'DESPATCH ADDRESSED TO HIS EXCELLENCY GENERAL
LA MARMORA, MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS, BY
THE ITALIAN MINISTER AT PARIS.
" M. le Ministre,—ln accordance with the tele-
gram your Excellency did me the honour to for ward
upon the 28th inst., to inform me on the communi-
cation made to you by the French Minister at Tarin
upon the subject of my despatch of the 15h of Sep-
tember, I went yesterday to the Imperial Minister
for Foreign Affairs, and had a long explanation

with him.
"His Excellency M. Drouyn de Lhuys admitted
to me loyally that what was in my despatch was
true. But he added that, from the French point
of view, the contents of my despatch ought to be
completed in several points.
"I will give your Excellency an account of the
observations of M. Drouyn de Lhuys and of my
replies :
" 1. The Imperial Minister for Foreign Affairs
thinks, first, that my despatch has not sufficiently
pointed out the difference existing between the pro-
ject of the Count de Cavour and the Convention.
I replied that the original project of the Count de
Cavour having been inserted textually in my de-
spatch, the difference between the two documents
must naturally be apparent upon reading them and
by comparison:; that further I had pointed out with
much exactness the modifications made in the origi.
nal text, particularly that referring to the formation
of the Pontificial army and the far more important
change respecting the transfer of the seat of the
Italian Government. I have indicated with suffi-
cient clearness in my despatch that the fact of the
transfer of the capital has been considered by the
Imperial Government as a sine qua non condition of
the signing of the Convention.
"2. M. Drouyn de Lbuys thinks that to speak
of aspirations after having renounced violent means
of going to Rome is to give rise to the supposition
among parties that underhand ways (voles souter.
raines) are kept in reserve. I replied that nothing
in my despatch could give rise to such an intetpretc.-
tiod—that we 11:,d expressly reserved the national
t• at !JUL u
tied their course and their elict—that I should
have considered it en insult to my Government to
admit even for a single instant the necessity of an
explanation in this respect. There is nothing in
common between the underhand ways cf shich M.
Drouyn de Lhuys specks and the moral forces of
civiliz Alen and progress to which we appeal for
obtaining a reconciliation between Italy and the

" I therefore felt it necessary to tell M. Nigra
that, though I did not raise any doubt as to the per-
fect sincerity of his intentions, nor even as to the
accuracy of the facts contained in his report, never-
theless I could not conceal the fact that in my opinion
that document does not fully give the features of the
negotiation, nor the meaning which we attach, and
which the Italian Government itself must attach, to
the engagements which have resulted from it. To
prove this it willsuffice to state the impression which
it has produced on both sides of the Alps. News-
papers of every shade of opinion have drawn con-
clusions from it as much opposed to our intentions
as tt.ey are to those of the Ministers of King Victor
Emmanuel. This despatch, interpreted in a similar
sense by the passions of the different parties, has be-
come the text of congratulations and reproaches
which it must be the desire of both Governments
alike to reject. Whence this confusion, unless it arises
from the ambiguity cf a few vague expressions, the
dangers of which in this mater we had frequently
pointed out beforehand? In those words, 'rights
of the nation . . . national a,pirations; despite the
care shown in the selection of the language, every
Wall riaua NN Dut DU 'lopes or what he tears. JJallUt-
less it is somewhat diffimit to explain how Italian
royalty might find itself some day at Itlme When it
seemingly forbids itself to go there ; for such con-
ctuaions do not naturally emanate from the perusal
of a convention which stipulates for the transfer of
the capital of the kingdom to Florence, snd for tilt-
guarantee of the Pontifical territory egainst any
armed aggression. Opinion is, nevertheless, led

Papacy.
3. M. Drouyn de Lhuys has called attention to
the fact that it was declared upon both sides at the
conferences that no previous arrangement ought to
be made for the case in which, notwithstanding the
legal execution of the Convention on the part of
Italy and France, the Pontifical Government might
no longer be able to subsist by itself, and would
render its existence impossible ; that this eventus
ality would have constituted a new situation indea
pendent of the Convention and beyond the antici-
pations of the contracting parties. The two Goa
vernments reserved to themselves, in the event of
this case occurring, full liberty of action upon
either side.
" This reservation mentioned by his Excellency
is perfectly correct, and I took care to communia
cate it at the proper time to the King's Govern..
ment. But I have not considered that I was bound
to repeat it in a despatch destined for publicity, for
two reasons. In the first place, the Plenipoten-
tiaries having admitted that they could not, and
ought not to, preoccupy themselves with an even-
tuality of this nature, equal reason would seem to
exist for my adopting the same course in my des-
patch ; in the second place, I felt a repugnance to
bring under public discussion the prospect of the fall
of the Pontifical Government by its own fault and
importance. This eventuality is certainly possible,
but, if we must now look future eventualities in the
face, we should prefer to rest our ideas upon that of
a possible reconciliation between the Papacy and
Italy. I ought to add, further, that M. Drouyn de
Lhuys, in making this remark, did not intend to
complain that it had not been explained in my des-
patch of the 15th of September. His Excellency
told me that he has rather been desirous of giving
some kind of reply to the journals which have coma
mented upon that document. M. Drouyn de Lhuys
entirely partakes our opinion upon the propriety of
not entering into a discussion as to a future even•
tuality, which the contracting parties had not to
take into consideration.
" Lastly, M. Drouyn de Lhuys would have wished
my despatch to have contained the explanation of
what we understand by national aspirations. I replied
to his Excellency that it did contain that explana-
tion, and that I had taken care to point out recent
ciliation between Italy and the Papacy upon the
principle of a free Church in a free State as the
object of our aspirations. The reserve of these
aspirations having been made expressly and in the
terms which I textually quoted, I had nothing to
add upon this subject.
" You will see from 'what I have explained to
you, M. le Ministre, that even after the remarks
of the hon. Imperial. Minister for Foreign Affairs,
the contents of my despatch remain unchanged..
Your Excellency will no doubt, equally with nape
self, take the fullest account of M. Drouyn de
Lhuys' observations, as I have had the honour to
explain them to you. But Ido not think them of
a nature to invalidate what I have COLS • t• I Call 1011 S y
stated in my report, which I maintain in its in.;
tegrity.
" That which I have just written is not intended
to be published. But if the French Government
should think fit to publish the Notes which have
been lately communicated to you by the Minister
of France, I request your Excellency to give equal
publicity to this despatch.
" Receive the assurances, &c.,
NIGRA."

astray by such subtle problems. Events must
settle them. Good faith as well as prudence
will not admit of their being prematurely
resolved by vain hypotheses. Thus, I am far
from attributing any such attempt either to the
Court of Turin or to M. le Chevalier Nigra. I
point out the necessity of preventing even the sup.
position of such a thing by the precision and clear-
ness of official declarations. With this object in
view I have given in my correspondence, and chal-
lenged, in my interviews, all the explanations ne.
cessary to put aside rash or prejudicial deductions.
" Those explanations arc 'summed up in the fol-
lowing propositions ;
"1. Among the violent means which Italy has
promised not to have recourse to (s'est interclit
l'emploi) must be reckoned the machinations of
revolutionary agents upon the Pontifical territory,
as also any agitation tending to produce insurrec•
tionary movements.
" 2. As regards the moral means of which she
has reserved to herself the use, they consist solely
in the forces of civilisation and progress.
"3. The only aspirations which the Court of
Turin considers as legitimate are those the object of
which is the reconciliation with the Papacy.
" 4. The transfer of the capital is a solemn pledge
given to France. It is neither a provisional expe•
dient nor a halting place on the road to Rome. To
suppress the pledge would be to annul the contract.
" 5. The propositions of Count Cavour in 1861 did
not contain this clause relative to the capital; more-
over, they limited the army of the Holy Father to a
fixed figure, and assigned a delay of 15 days for the
departure of our troops. The great differences be-
tween those propositions and the arrangements of
the month of September cannot be overlooked.
" 6. The case of a revolution which should burst
out suddenly at Rome has not been provided for by
the Convention. In regard to such an eventuality
France reserves to herself freedom of action.
" 7. The Turin Cabinet maintains the policy of
Count Cavour. Now, that illustrious man declared
that Rome could not be united to Italy and become
its capital except with the consent of France.
" Such are, M. le Baron, the different points dis-
cussed in my conversations with M. le Chevalier
Nigra, and upon which, it seemed to me, we shared
the same opinion. Certainly, Ido not pretend that
he ought to have inserted those supplementary ex-
planations in his report. Still less do I wish to
reproach him for not having in that document pro-
tested against the use of fraudulent means, nor fore•
seen the fall of the Pontifical power by an internal
insurrection, not caused by foreign intrigue. I
agreed with the Minister of Italy, as my corre-
spondence shows, that there are certain previsions
which the dignity of the contracting parties and a
feeling of delicacy do not allow to be inserted in
diplomatic documents. Too much precaution, under
certain circumstances, becomes an insult. But, let
me repeat it, when through general formulas vague
vistas are allowed to glimmer, every man takes
his own view of them, and explains them accord.
ing to his own heart's desire; what has not
been said is supposed to be underetood, and
extreme parties read between the lines of your
despatches what their
.passions dictate. This is
why we earnestly wish that light may shine forth
in the midst of this darkness in the discussion which
is abcut to take place in the Italian Parliament.--1
am, &c., " DROUYN DE LIMB."

"THE MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS TO BARON
MALARET, MINISTER OP FRAICE AT TURIN.
" Paris, Nov. 2.

HomEwARD AMERICAN MAIL STEAMERS.--
There ara three steamers due at Liverpool this
week with the American mails, as follow: —The Hiber-
nian, from Quebec, on the 29th ult., and the City of Wash-
ington, with corresponding dates from New York, may ho
expected to arrive—the former off Greencastle and the
off Queenstown—in the course of Wednesday. Tho
Cunard steamer Scotia, with dates from New York to the
2d iuet., will nu doubt reach Queenstown on Friday even-
, ing or early on aturclby morning.

"M. le Baron,—The Minister of Italy conveyed
to me three days ago, in the name of General La
Marmora, his desire to reconcile the meaning given
to the Convention by the Italian Legation in its
report of the 15th of September with that which I
had myself explained in my former despatches. The
conversations of which I gave you an account on the