The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-07 00:00:00

THE

Right Hon. Friend would make some concession upon
that subject, because he believed the greater pert, if not
the whole of the unpopularity of that measure was
owing to the insertion of those clauses.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN asked the Hon. Member whether
he meant to mesee any amendment ?
Mr. CEIARTERIS replied in the negative. He merely
wished to offer a suggestion.
Mr. WALPOLE said that as his Hon. Friend had
adverted to the 16th clause, which provided for the en-
forcement of the ballot, while they had under their con-
sideration the 7th clause, he (Mr. Walpole) would take
that opportunity of announcing the intention of the Go•
vernment upon that subject. The great object of the
Government was to raise the required number of men by
voluntary enlistment, if they could properly do so. They
looked upon that as a great experiment, and they there-
fore proposed that the ballot should not be put in force
until the last day of the present year. Un !or that ar-
rangement they would have six or eight months to see
how far they could raise the men by voluntary enlist-
ment. Parliament and the country would by that means
be able to judge of the experiment, and the results to
which it might lead. The new Parliament would meet
before
afoirleinthtoe machinery the ballot should have been put
a
Hear)—and they would have a
full opportunity of stopping that machinery it it should
be found unnecessary to have recourse to it. The Go-
vernment were not anxious to have recourse to the
ballot, but, on the contrary, were desirous of avoiding
it if possible. Lot him remind the Committee that
if the Bill were not passed, and if it should
be found necessary to have recourse to the ballot be-
tween the present time and the meeting of Parliament,
they would have no means of raising the men that
would be required, except by removing the Ballot Sus-
pension Act, and resorting to the 42d of George
Hoe.
Friend, Fie could not approve of the suggestion of his
Friend, that the proposed number Of men should be les-
sened by one-half, and that the period for drilling should
he greatly increased. He believed that the measure as
it stood would combine the two great advantages of
giving ' them a sufficient force for any emergency, and
raising that force with as little disturbance as possible of
the ordinary occupations of the people. He proposed,
however, to amend the wording of that clause by sub-
stituting for the words "there shall be raised," the fol-
lowing words—" it shall be lawful to raise."
Lord JOCELYN expressed his disapproval of the
proposal of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Charteris). The
highest authorities upon that subject had expressed
their belief that 70,000 or 80,000 men were the smallest
number which could form an efficient force. He did not
expect that that Bill would give them any perfecdy-
trained and effective troops; but it would enable the '
Government to know where they could lay their hands
on a body of men who would be found extremely useful
in an emergency. He would suggest to his Right Hon.
Friend the Secretary for the Home Department a mode
by which the efficiency of the force might be very consi-
derably increased. Under the Queen's warrant soldiers
were at present allowed to purchase their discharge on
payment of a certain sum, graduated according to the
amount of service they might have performed. It appeared
to him that it would be very desirable to allow those
men to purchase their discharge at a lower rate, on
condition of their enrolling themselves in the militia,
while they should receive the same bounty as other
volunteers. He believed that the number of soldiers
who purchased their discharge amounted annually to
about 1,600; and it was evident that those men who
had undergone a regular military training might add
greatly to the efficiency of the militia force. Ho thought
that the men themselves would not be unwilling to avail
themselves of that arrangement, and he had also reason
to think that it would meet with the approval of military
authorities.
Mr. WALPOLE having here proposed that the blank
in the clause should be filled up with the words" eighty
thousand,"
Wr. M. GIBSON said that as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man lead announced his intention of postponing the ope-
rations of the ballot until after the meeting of the next
Parliament, there could be no practical use in asking the
House at present to vote for the enactment of the ballot.
It that measure could not be enforced until after the
meeting of the new Parliament, why should it be enacted
in the meantime? And why should they commit them-
selves to a principle without any necessity ? And if they
were to postpone one-half of the Bill, why should they
not also postpone the other halt? Why should they,
to use a common saying, " make two bites of a
cherry?" They proposed to raise 80,000 militiamen,
and they had got, at the lowest computation, 67.000 re-
gular troops within the United Kingdom. Now the
Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had informed them
that in the month of January, 1814, during the height
of the French war, they had in the United Kingdom
only 80,000 militiamen and 56,000 regular troops; so
that it was at present proposed that they should have a
larger force in time of peace thou they had during the
height of the French war. Was that reasonable? They
told him of the danger of attack; but his apprehension
arose from the danger of an aggression on the part of
this country.—(Laughter, and cries of "Oh, oh.") That
apprehension was at least justified by past events, while
the theory of an unexpected attack to be made on us by
a friendly nation was unsupported by any facts in the
history of this country. His theory that the English
Government might pursue an interfering policy in
Europe was based, not on the doctrines of the Peace
Society, but on events which had already actually taken
place. If a foreigner of intelligence heard Ministers
talking of the chastity of our women, or the wealth
of our merchants being in danger from France, he
would believe England was about to embark on
an aggressive policy. This was not a time to
get up debates imputing to France concealed designs
of attack, and awakening her jealousies and fears.
He would not speak of the press; but such a course pur-
sued by men of eminence and Ministers of State was
calculated to bring on war. He could suggest no course
more likely to produce such a result—gentlemen going
down to the House of Commons and making speeches—
(Loud ironical cheering)—and without any facts—(Re-
newed cheers)—imputing bad motives to a friendly
power.—(Continued cheering.) There was not a pretext
for this measure; for the Noble Lord the Member for
Tiverton had declared that when he had left the Foreign
Office there was perfect tranquillity,—(Hear.) The
militia were to be raised first by bounty. When the
wen, however, had the money, how were they to be
secured? To lavish such an immense sum on so large a
number of men, and without any effective means of se-
curing their services, was really most unreasonable. Was
there to be a vague abuse on the character of the En-
glish people, and their disposition to fulfil their engage-
ments?—(Loud cheers.) It would be far better to with-
draw the measure for more mature consideration on this
and other points.—( Hear, hear.) As to steam it was all
nonsense, for the question remained just where it was
before as to disembarkation. Stem enabled a hostile foe
to cross the sea quicker, but not to land more easily; and
on the other hand, enabled us to transport our means of
defence more rapidly by railway. He should certainly
take the sense of the House on this proposition of 80,000,
men.

Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I do not rise to discuss
whose speeches are most calculated to promote hostili-
ties with foreign countries—(Loud cheers)—or encou-
rage and invite invasion.—(Renewed cheers.) I leave
that to the decision of the public.—(Continued cheers.)
Bat the Right Hon. Gentleman has misrepresented what
I said on a former occasion.—(Hear, hear.) He repre-
sented me to have stated that in January, 1814, we had
80,000 militia—[Mr. GIBSON-82,000] —and 56,000 re-
gular troops in the United Kingdom, and that therefore
the proposal now made for 80,000 militia and 56,000 re-
gular troops—[Hr. GIBSON-67,000]—will place the
country precisely in the same situation as in 1814. But,
Sir, my Right Hon. Friend appears to be ignorant of
the difference between an enrolled and an embodied mi-
litia—(Hear, hear.) What I said was that, in 1814, we
had not 80,000, but 89,000—(11ear, hear)—militia—not
enrolled only, but embodied—(Hear, hear)—armed and
under discipline all the year round, and in all respects
like the regular troops.—(Hear, hear.) That is not what
is proposed now.—(Hear, hear.) It is not proposed to
have a militia even of 80,000 embodied, but only en-
roiled.—(Hear, hear.) The parallel, therefore, totally
fails.—(Hear, hear.) The cases are utterly different.—
(Hear, hear.) And, Sir, it is to be remembered that
though 1814 was a year of war, the French had plenty
of employment in other parts of the world—(Hear, hear)
—and probably there was never a year in which there
was less chance of invasion.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GIBSON said he would, of course, submit to
the Noble Lord's correction as to the numbers of the
militia in 1814; but the Noble Lord had not contra-
dicted the other part of the statement, that in 1814 there
were
only 56,000 regular troops in the United Kingdom,
whereas now there were 67,000, though that was a time
of war and this was a time of peace.—(Hear, hear.)
Then invasion was probable, now it was improbable.—
(Hear, hear.)The Noble Lord said the militia were
not to be embodied.
—(No, no.) Then what
it was only to be on paper.
at was it to be?—(Oh, oh.) If it
were not to be embodied,was riettlyfethere could be no emergency
and no hurry. It
absurd to pay the bounty
money merriceely for enrolmenct. Why the 61. just amounted
Who could ex ect
to p of a
theass&
men g
to
to America.—(Oh, oh.)
peo come batik when it was
wanted to embody them? They could be off to America.
expected back again, why
—(Oh, oh.) If they could be
we might as well let all our
absence.(Divde) military go on leave of
Mr. F. SCOTT said that foreigners would naturally
suppose that the people of this country were GO degraded
that they would even take money to defend it with the
design of abandoning it—(Hear, hear)—and that, there-
fore, it was utterly defenceless.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing
could be more calculated to invite invasion and induce
attack.—(Hear, hear.) He deprecated such speeches, as
tending to produce much mischief and create bad im-
pressions both at home and abroad.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME entered into some observations about the
,6 country gentlemen" being the cause of taxation, and
taunted them with complaining of agricultural distress,
and at the same time countenancing a cryof `` i,nva-
sion," which produced the present measure, imposint, ad-
ditional burdens upon the people. If bnta measure were
carried it would be by the aid of the county Members,
who were Iseretufore crying out for Government relief
from the heavy burdens that pressed upon them.
Mr. W. MILES was per'coqy astonished that
gentle-
men who called on the Government to name a day for
dissolution should get up and deliver themselves of set
speeches, evidently intended for the socr)nd reading, in-
stead of confinirg themselves to the particular clause of
the Bill before the Committee.—(Hear.) If they were
to discuss the clauses le them strictly do so, but net make
speeches de omnibus rebus et guibusdatn uliis.—([;ear.)
Mr. RICH objected that so large a number as 50,000
men, out of the requisite 80,000, sheuld be raised in the
present year by bounty. They apprehended danger or
they did nut. He wished to know, in case of an emer-
gency occurring, if they would prefer to rely on these
50,000 men, to an addition of 15,000 regular troops to
the arms ?—(Hear, and divide.)
Mr. J. EV NNS could not fancy gentlemen acting as
her Majesty's Government were about to act, if they

SITN,

really were under a sense of danger. They would raise
50,000 men this year by bounty if they could get them;
bu. if they coull not, they would do without them. The
compulsory clause was put off to the nexl. year; why not
postpone the whole matter? What was to become of
the country in the interim?—(Hear, hear.) Who could
tell it the invasion would not take place in the foggy
nights hetween this and Christmas,—(Hear, and laughter.)
Mr. WYLD opposed the Bill, as, in his opinion, its
only effect would be to place in the hands of the Govern-
ment a large amount of patronage.—(Oa, oh.)
After a few words from Colonel THOMPSON, who
also opposed the
Mr. COBDEN thought the statement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, that the Government would not be able to
put measure s this mea into force this year, a sufficient reason
for reporting progress. If this Bill could not compel
service in the militia, it was totally inefficient. He
should like to know what course the Noble Lord the
Member for Tiverton meant to take, after his assertion
that we might be invaded by 60,000 men from
Cherbourg in one night. But he (Mr. Cobden) totally
denied that in Lancashire, Yorkshire, or Middlesex '
there could be got together volunteers at 61. a
head; for men would not be found to leave their work
on such an errand. A more ridiculous waste of time
and money than this measure would entail he could not
conceive; and, considering the altered state of circum-
stances, and the necessity of letting the public out of
doors know what they had been doing, he trusted they
would now consent to report progress.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
not now stop to inquire whether the people of England
were the " vagabonds" they had been described to be by
the Hon. Member, or the " clod hoppers," as they had
been characterised by the Hon. Member for Man-
chester.—(flear, hear.) It was somewhat remarkable,
that Hon. Gentlemen, who were so often appealing to
popular sympathy, and who boasted so of the privilege
of representing the people, should never speak of the
masses except in terms of contempt and contumely.—
(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Colleague of the Member
for Manchester said that none but vagabonds would
enlist in the service, because the people were rapidly
emigrating from this country. Probably the Right
Hon. Gentleman might know something of the cause
of that emigration.—(Hear, hear.) When the motion
for reporting progress was made, he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) was anxious to know on what ground
Hon. Gentlemen contended that the whole principle of
the Bill had undergone a change.—(Hear.) Now, the
Bill was brought in on the principle of voluntary enlist-
ment, and he must say, after due deliberation and con-
sideration, and after receiving mach information upon
the subject, her Majesty's Government were satisfied
that a sufficient force by that plan could be got together.
—(Hear, hear.) From the principle of voluntary en-
listment there had been no departure.—(Hear, bear.)
And now. as to what his Right Honourable Friend the
Home Secretary had said with regard to the ballot;
under ordinary circumstances it would take four months
to bring the ballot into full play.—(Hear, hear.) His
Right Hon. Friend, with the sanction of his colleagues,
and in deference to the House and the country—in an-
ticipation of another Parliament meeting within the
year—offered to insert a date in the Bill which would
secure to the new Parliament the power of interfering
if this point of the ballot was considered a cause of ap-
prehension and likely to lead to unpopularity.—(Hear,
hear.) The offer made, then, could not be considered in
the slightest degree a deviation from the principle of the
measure, or from the policy which dictated it.—(Hear,
hear.) It was, he would not say a concession, but a dis-
position to meet an objection which might be made.
The assertion, therefore, of the Honourable Member
for the West Riding, that any change had
been made in the principle of the Bill, was one of
those exaggerations to which the Hon. Member so
often and so felicitously had recourse—(Hear, hear)—
which, under other circumstances, had found consider-
able success, but which he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) trusted would not meet with so happy a result
on the present occasion.—(Hear and cheers.) This Bill
sought to establish a militia on the voluntary principle,
and that principle had been adopted in the conviction
that it was practicable.—(Hear, hear.) The Govern-
ment believed that principle would succeed, but in hav-
ing recourse to the ballot they did not practically deviate
from the plan first sketched.—(Hear, hear.) The bal-
lot would not be brought into operation, and by that
time the new Parliament would meet. The measure
was never intended to produce a disciplined force which
should be able to encounter the disciplined forces of the
great states of Europe; and the attempt to compare
such a force to the legions of Algiers or the armies of
the Caucasus was one which, he trusted, the Committee
would not encourage.—(Hear, hear.) This was a first
attempt to habituate the people of this country more to
the use of arms than heretofore. Irresistible circum-
stances had rendered such a policy necessary.—(Hear.)
If this Bill passed, although it would not produce a
force which coul t meet the veteran armies of the world,
it would lay the foundation of a constitutional system
of national defence.—(Cheers.)
Mr. COBDEN repelled with indignation the insinua-
tions of the Right Hon. Gentleman—(oh)—who had
charged him with having accused the people of this
country with being vagabonds.--(0h.) He had too
much respect for the people of England to believe that
they would accept the bounty, and turn soldiers for 21
days. What he said was, that the people of Yorkshire,
Lancashire, and Middlesex, were too profitably employed
to engatte themselves in such a manner. The mechanics
and artisans would not accept the bounty, and the men
they were likely to get would be the " vagabondage" of
the country.—(Oh, oh.)
Colonel SIB I'HORP trusted the lion. Member's con-
stituents would remember the epithet applied to them.
Bat the lion. Member would not think it politic to call
them " vagabonds" on the busting.
Mr. BRIGHT said the Chancellor of the Exchequer
seemed to think they we% e making an unnecessary noise
and turmoil upon the question, when it was the fact that
he had made changes of importance in the Bill. The
House and the country, however, was of a different
opinion. He contended that a very important change had
been made, if not in the principle, at least in the details
and circumstances of the measure, Instead of making
himself absolutely certain that be could raise a force of
even 10,000 men, he leaves the defences of the country to
the chapter of accidents, and puts off the ballot to the
end of the year. The opinion of the most eminent mili-
tary men was that they could not raise the requisite
force by volunteering. They had entirely shifted their
ground, and abandoned that of urgency and danger,
and postponed all active measures till the 31st Decem-
ber. The Right lion. Gentleman was unwilling to go
to the country upon the question of free trade —(Ques-
tion.) He wished to appeal on the principles of his gene-
ral policy, and, as the present measure was one of gene-
ral policy, he thought that portion of the Bill at least
which referred to the ballot ought to be postponed till
the electors would have an opportunity of pronouncing
an opinion upon it. The Right lion. Gentleman said
the object VC a s to accustom the people of this country
more to the use of arms. He denied that that was tra-
velling in the right direction; and if there was anything
more than another that had rivetted the chains of
Europa, it was placing in the hands of these despotic
rulers large armies to crush the liberties of the people.
If that was the direction the Right Hon. Gentleman
meant to proceed in, he would be regarded as one of
the most mischievous rulers that that country had ever
known.—(Oh, oh!) He trusted he would withdraw
from the Bill the clauses that referred to the ballot, and
leave them to the consideration of another Parliament.
Mr. WALPOLE was not surprised that Hon. Gentle-
men opposite would not receive the repeated assurances
of the Government that they did not intend to have re-
course to compulsory service, unless they failed in ob-
taining voluntary tenders. The ballot, he repeated,
would not bo put into operation until they were assured
that the voluntary enlistment would fail. The announce-
ment he had made was strictly in accordance with what
he had stated from the commencement—unless in case
of a threatened invasion the machinery for the ballot
would not be called into operation.—(Hear, hear.) That
was the whole announcement he had made, and it was
ceneietent with everything he had previously said. The
proposition of a Militia Bill was not brought forward
from any apprehension of invasion, but on the general
principle that a country like that should not be left in a
state of undefence; and since there really was no appre-
hension of an invasion, that was the best time to provide
against danger, by a measure of provident precaution,
where no alarm or jealousy could be reasonably excited.
After a few words from Mr. BASS,
Mr. CHARTERIS said he would not have ventured
to have brought forward a motion on this subject unless
he had consulted the opinions of some eminent military
men, who thought that 40,000 regular troops would be
more efficient than 80,000 militiamen. But inasmuch
as the Hon. Member for Manchester had taken up the
motion, ho felt himself in such a position that if the
Hon. Member persisted in his amendment he would sup-
port him.
Mr. HEYWORTH supported the amendment.
Mr. OSW ALD said that even when the Noble Lord
the Member for Tiverton, instead of turning the other
cheek, smote the Noble Lord the Member for London
under the fifth rib—(Laughter)—he was not tempted to
join the onslaught. Inasmuch as the House had de-
clared by a majority of about 150 in favour of the se-
cond reading, he would bow to that decision, and al-
though he was by no moans favourable to the present
Government, he would support them in the present in-
stance.
Mr. M. GIBSON said, that all he proposed was that
the word " eighty" be struck out, leaving it to any
lion. Member to propose to fill up the blank as he
pleased.

c what
ted t o
the
-
Mr.S. EVANS said, that as the principle of the Bill
tia:.s ri
l affirmedbeoetudisposed
by a large majority of the House, he
v to
support an amendment that was
calculated
that principle.
Mr. T. VPCUL..donsraitte: destroy
ACM appealed to the Chairman to
state
questionthen d
irveiadleltyi , waswhe
when
that e
rweaaspbpeefaorreedt—b e
House.
et
The
Ayes
Noes --
Maj;;itv
—led up :v.../..ith tfhle.:word-21503`67‘
The blank was then filled •••
elill.hty
tho second blank be
thousaul "
Mr. WALPOLE moved that
thousand" as the number
t‘h‘aefitlifirst yn
edamr.ent to propose, ob-
fiofllemdeunptwo iitifet
rtahiesewdotrodrs
further at that hour of the night,
and moved that the Chairman should
icci't,lera.
tßollpirGocaecTo,i,,liagaying
report progress,
and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. HUME said that as the House had settled the
total number of men to be raised under the Bill, he had
no objoction to fill up the second blank with the words
" fifty theusand" for one year; but he hoped the motion
of the Hon. Member for Manchester would be acceded
to by the Goveroment.
The CLIA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
understand the propriety of deferring further discussion,
if it were objected to fill up the second blank for the