The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-17 00:00:00

THE MARGARET AND JESSIE .

In reply to Mr. S. FITZGERALD,

Mr. LAYARD stated that no further information had
been received with regard to the case of the Margaret and
Jessie.

IRISH RECORDS.
On the motion of going into committee of supply,
llr. MONSELL called attention to the unsatisfactory

manner in which the Irish records were being collected and
translated, and moved for a return of the moneys voted for
the purpose in the three countries.
Colonel DU NNE supported the motion.
Mr. F. PEEL defended the appointment of the calen-
derer, Mr. Morrin, who was selects-d upon the recommen-
dation of the Master of the Rolls--but he agreed with his
hon and pliant friend opposite (Col. Dunne) that Mr.
Morrin had made a mistake in forgetting the maxim, " Ne
sutor ultra crepidam," and that it was certain comments
which he bad introduced in the preface and notes to his
calf ndar that had caused all his trouble. He could, how-
ever, inform his right hon. friend that a more suitable re-
cord office was about to be constructed in Dublin, and that
the publication of Irish records upon a more extended plan
was dependent upon all the records being brought under
one roof.

After some observations from Mr. GEORGE and the AT
TORNEY-GENERAL f r Ireland,
Mr. MONSELL withdrew his mtion.
BRAZIL.

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Mr. S. FITZGERALD, in calling attention to the pre-
sent relations of this country with Brazil, and especially to
the recent rupture of dipiomatic intercourse with that Go
vernment, expressed his regret that the state of public busi-
ness should have compelled him to defer the motion so long.
He was very sensible, looking to the state of the benches and
the period of the session, that he was acting rather in oppe•
sition to the wishes of the house in bringing forward the
question ; but considering the important interests that were
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diplo-
matic intercourse with this country. This in itself was an
important event. It was the protest of a weak Power against
the conduct of a great and powerful State; it was the pro-
test of a country that was well aware that in material re-
sources and in military and naval strength it was not in a
position tee measure strength with the Power with which it
had a controversy, and it was a formal and open step in the
face of the world against the conduct of a country which
had acted in the spirit ef oppression towards it. Brazil had
adopted a course of policy which had won the respect of the
other nations ot the world. She had paid this country the
compliment of having modelled her institutions atter the
English m- del; and she had gained the confidence of the
commercial world so much, that English merchants directed
their attention to trade w•thßrazil as one of great importance.
One of the consequences arising out of the policy of her Ma-
jesty's Government towards thetcountrywould be to bring into
power the party who were adverse to English interests. He
would dismiss from consideration all that had been said in
former debates about the contradictory statements about the
wreck and plunder of the Prince of Wales, and would con-
fine himself to the course taken by her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and the proceedings of Mr. Christie. In the first.
place, he wished to call the attention of the house to the fact
that it was the representative of this country at the Paris
Conferences who proposed that, when a dispute arose be-
tween two Powers, recourse should be had to the arbitration
of a third and impartial Power before resorting to arms.
That was the proposal of the British Government at the
Paris Conferences, and yet, with strange inconsistency, this
country was the first to depart from it in the ease of Brazil;
and the Under- Secretary for Foreign Affairs had in a former
debate justified this departure on the grout d that this coun-
try, being the party offended, could not propose arbitration,
and that the offer should come from the Brazilian Govern-
ment. He would now come to the instructions forwarded
by Lord Russell to Mr. Christie with reference to arbitra-
tion On the Bth October Lord Russell sent a despatch to
Mr. Christie, instructing him to demand a sum of £5,500
for the goods destroyed, and £1,025 for freight. But ulei
merely the noble lord, having some misgivings arising from
what had taken place at the Paris Conferences, a• nt a
second despatch on the 4th of November, in which he in-
structed Mr. Christie that, if arbitration was proposed by
the Brazilian Government, he was to accept it. But al-
though Mr. Christie was in possession of ;he two despatches
—the second clearly superseding the first—yet, notwith-
standing this fact, he addressed a demand to the Brazilian
Government based almost in the identical words of Lord
Russell's first despatch. (Hear.) The Brazilian Govern-
meet declining to propose arbitration upon those terms, Mr
Christie at length took the extreme course of instructing the
English Admiral to have rece urse to reprisals; and it was
utt the morning after the ships had been sent to make re-
prisals, and when the reprisals had actually been made,
that Mr. Christie informed the Brazilian Government that
h would be necessary for him to take forcible measures for
obtaining reparation. They had this fact before them
that, although Mr. Christie was in possession of instruc-
tions which would enable him to get out of the complica-
tions, still, so desirous was he of "reading a lesson to the
Brazilian Governmen..," to use his own words, that he had
recourse to forcible measures. He thought it was a grave
charge against the Government that, instead of censuring
our representative at Brazil for keeping back his despatch,
and thereby reading a lesson, as he said, to the Brazilians,
they had supported him in all he had done. The only
attempt at excuse on the part of Mr. Christie was that it
had been necessary to keep secret his arrangements with
the British Admiral, and how had he kept them secret.?
Why that the Brazilian Minister anew nothing of what had
been intended until the Britisu ships of war had actually
been engaged in making reprisals and insulting the flag ot
the Brazilian Government. His nest point was with r, gard
to the compensation for the the Prince of Wales, and there
he wished to observe that he meant to say nothing against
the Queen's Advocate (whose acquaintance he had the
honour to possess), because he believed that the documtni
that had been produced in his name could not have emanated
from him, the rule being that the law officers of the Crow!.
should never make public the opinions they were asked to
give. He should like, however, to know what facts and
documents had been placed before that learned gentleman
when asked tor his opinion. He held in his hand the mani-
fest at the vessel in question, and he found that the claim
stated by her Majesty's slovernment on behalf of Mr.
Stevens at £5,500, came down to £3,000. 01 that value
he (Mr. Fitzgerald) had had the opinion of an eminent
mercha t in the Brazilian trade, that only about £BOO
worth could ever have been got on shore. (Hear.) But
the most extraordinary claim that was probably ever
put forward, not only by the British Government
but by any reasonable beings under the sun, was
a charge ot £s4o for "possible murders." (Hear, hear.)
I here had been no proof whatever that anybody had been
murdered at all, and it was just as possible that there had
been no murders; but, supposing there had, how had that
particular amount of damages been assessed ? The most
curious part of the business, however, and that which, if it
were not a very serious matter, would be positively ridicu-
lous, was the mode of nistributing the money claimed should
it have been paid. It might have been supposed that it
should go to the relatives of the murdered men, but they
were not known, nor was it known that any men han been
murdered Strangely enough, the whole of the money -vas
proposed to be divided amongst those who had suffered by
the wreck. ( Hear ) Ualess something was done to smooth
down the difficulties, he feared that the distress in the north
would be greatly aggravated by the crippling of our com-
merce with Brazil ; and therefore he was anxious for her
Majesty's Government to take some course that would lead
to the renewal of friendly relations with that country. He
suggested that the same conciliatory conduct should be pur
sued towards Brazil that had been adopted towarus Rera-
guay ; but he was afraid the secret of the matter was that
her Majesty's Government could afford to bully at eio,
when it was too expensive to do so at Paraguay. Were,
however, her Majesty's Government to change that spirit
of hostility that had for years past actuated their conduct
towards Brazil, it would be more becoming, more advanta-
geous, and, he ventured to think, more honourable to the
character of the country. He charged the noble lord at the
head of the Government with being more responsible than
any other person for that spirit of hostility towards Brazil.
The Aberdeen Act was a great mistahe, and ought to be
repealed. And Lord Aberdeen, before his doath, regretted
that he had ever consented to its passing, and had expressed
a hope that it would be repealed, But what was the noble
lord's position with regard to that Act with Brazil ? Depu-
tation after dei utation had waited upon the noble lord with
reference to it.
Lord PALMERSTON—No.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said ho had been informed so by
a gentleman who had waited upon the noble lord.
Lord PALM ERST ON—When ?
Mr. S.
FITZGERALD said he
was unable to state when.
He would make mui • •
licti
es, and if wrong he would give the
noble lord the advantage
of it. He charged the Govern-
ment with acting in a more hostile spirit towards Brazil
than they had towards
Spainsla for
neglecting treaty obliga-
tions with regard to theslave trade. Spain had received
money on the distinct stipulatio
the slave trade. The hon. gent et
athat it should put down
with having written to Brae. Wirth !a charged E srl Russell
a week after the en-
forcement of reprisals, one of the bitterest
reference to liberating neves,'
in the i despatches, with
a ils. which his
lordship, with his very bitter pen, had eve
fact, that despatch was very much in the spiritr written. In
of
women quarrelling—the one having the last word:w roakoi ld
up all she could collect for years past, and throwing theng
most bitter scandal she could find against her opponent.
Her Majesty's Government had the means of making ad-
vances towards the Brazi inn government, and he had
reason to believe they would be favourably received ; and
if they repealed the Aberdeen act nothing would give more
satisfaction to the Brazilian people. He hoped her Ma-
jesty's Government would not proceed as they had done,
sanctioning conduct that was adverse and contrary to what
they had given, and enforcing demands which were in them-
selves ridiculous and absurd, but do their best to renew
twee° relations with Brazil which had existed for so many
years to
the
honour of toe country. He moved formally for
a copy of the manifest of the barque Prince of Wales.
Mr. LAYARD said he did not clearly understand what
object his hon. friend had in view in bringing the subject
of Brazil again before the house. The question had been
'discuased and amply ventilated in the house and in
place on many occasions. They had heard from
tthhee
dos
gentleman very great words. He had talked about
sarac.eand dishonour of the country. and had applied
to the Government every term of reproach; but he (Mr.
Layard) should confess that when he saw a question in

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