The Sun.
London, England, 1864-02-23 00:00:00

tory state of affairs. We must take some means by which we
I can have authentic information before us, by which these
papers may be placed upon the table, and we must obtain
some explanation of the negotiations which her Majesty's
Government have commenced and conducted unsuccess-
fully without any communication to Parliament, and which
must unquestionably, in their character and conduct, greatly
affect the course of future events. (Loud Opposition cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Sir, I do
not know whether the right hon. gentleman judges well in
the tone in which ho refers to the absence of my noble
friend from the house. (Cheers.) Because most certainly
if there has been any man who ever occupied the dignified
position of my noble friend in the annals of this country
who has been most unsparing in the sacrifice of his own
comfort—(renewed cheers)—even to the serious risk of his
health—being ready at all times to place himself on this
bench whenever he could serve the country—that man is
my noble friend. (Cheers.) It may perhaps occur to the
impartial auditors of the speech of the right hon. gentleman
that it is a matter of some difficulty to know what the ob-
ject of that speech was. The right hon. gentleman—a mas-
ter of political fireworks—had no difficulty in producing at
a moment's notice any amount of display—(laughter)—but
these are matters of grave consideration—(Opposition
cheers, and counter cheers)—and those who speak like my
noble friend at the head of the Government, and like my
hon. friend the able representative of the Foreign Depart-
ment in this house, are bound to consider that their busi
ness is not so much to imagine how they can say smart
things for the satisfaction of those who sit behind them—
(cries of "Oh" from the Opposition benches)—as how they
can hold the language which is most compatible with the
dignity of the country, and least calculated to compromise
it in the eyes of foreign nations in periods of difficulty.
(Cheers, and counter cheers.) I therefore entirely renounce
all efforts to follow the right hon. gentleman in his brilliant
career; but endeavouring to extract from the speech of the
right hon. gentleman the few practical matters to which it
refers, I would reply to them as follows. The real substra-
tum of that speech appears to be the non-production of
papers—that the papers relative to Danish affairs were not
ready for production at the opening of Parliament. That
was explained by my noble friend in another place, and
the fact that these papers were not ready for production
was accounted for by a reference to the undoubted and
uniform rules of Parliament, with regard to negotiations
which have not reached any settlement, and at the same
time my noble friend at the ',pea a the Government,
and my hon. friend near me (Mr. Layard), express
their regret at the inconvenience which had occurred,
made a promise, which every effort has been used to
fulfil, that the preparation of these papers should be
accelerated by the employment of all the labour and re-
sources at the command of the Foreign-office. Well, be-
yond that expression of regret, and beyond that promise, I
do not know what it was in their power to do. The right
hon. gentleman referred to the cases of papers relating to
negotiations preceding the Crimean war, but he referred to a
case hardly relevant to the issue. In the interesting and
difficult question connected with the present unhappy colli-
sion between Germany and Denmark—or rather the pre-
sent unhappy aggression of Austria and Prussia upon Den-
mark—(hear, hear)—Great Britain has been a friendly by-
stander. In the negotiation preceding the Crimean war
Great Britain was a principal, and one of the two Great
Powers engaged in carrying that matter to an issue, which
ended in hostilities upon a gigantic scale. The right hon.
gentleman says that my noble friend assumed the charac-
ter of a mediator, and stated that in that character he had
made the suggestion of an armistice between the contend-
ing parties. It is quite true that, encouraged by various
considerations, that suggestion of an armistice was made;
but it is not true that that suggestion was made in the cha-
racter of a mediator. It was necessary to give effect—l will
not say to the arguments, but to the taunts of the right
gon. gentleman—that ho should invent that circumstance
in order to give point to his remarks, because it enabled him
to say that that which was done in the character of media-
tor must have been done with the expectation of sncless.
And now, said the right hon. gentleman, I will point out
how it has not succeeded. Now, the fact is, that the sug-
gestion was not made in the character of mediator ; it was
a mere suggestion entitled to attention; it was done in a
friendly spirit ; it was done in co-operation with other
Powers animated by a like spirit ; and whether a proposal,
judicious in itself, of that nature is accepted by the con-
tending parties or is not, my belief is that it will be appre-
ciated by the country. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman
complains that her Majesty's Government have not given
information upon, doubtless, the very interesting and im-
portant question whether the Prussian forces have or have
not evacuated Jutland. The simple reason they have not
given that information is that they do not happen to possess
it. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman is, I will not
say terribly behind the age, but he seems to forget the fun-
damental difference which has been made by the introduc-
tion of the telegraph, and that the information conveyed
by that measure is not always correct, and is sometimes al-
together erroneous. But still information of a most interest-
character on many important subjects is conveyed to the
public—the chance-readers of newspapers—before it is in
the hands of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary.
Her Majesty's Government have received communications
with respect to the evacuation of Jutland, but they have not
been of a character so clear and conclusive as to justify them
in saying anything about them to the house, and I think
that her Majesty's government would be grossly departing
from their duty if in their anxiety to convey to the house
the earliest intelligence they were careless of the full cor-
rectness of the information they had to give. (Cheers.)
Lord R. CECIL urged that the house was entitled to
know howfar the honour of England had been compromised.
Mr. B. OSBORNE—It occurs to me that that intelli-
gent foreigner who is sometimes supposed to sit under the
gallery of this house, on the present occasion would be
much puzzled to discover that this is the British House of
Commons. For it would seem to him, as to a great number
of the people of this country, that a more docile set of in-
struments never sat upon these benches. Why, what are
we about to do at the present minute ? War is raging in the
north of Europe ; men are losing their lives by thousands ;
and our Government has explained itself to-night, or rather
it has not explained itself to -night. For though the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer taunted the right hon. gentleman
opposite with being a master of fireworks, still his fire-
works left some light. (Hear, and laughter.) But the right
hon. gentleman, answering for the Government, succeeded
in doing a thing which I thought almost impossible, namely,
in making more confused the Schleswig. Holstein question
—(laughter)—for whether at this instant we are media-
tors for Denmark, or friendly bystanders between the
two parties, I defy any man to understand. (Hear,
hear.) What is the position of this house? War
is raging in America, war is raging in Denmark, and there
is a report that Denmark proper has been attacked by
Prussia—and how is the House of Commons treated ? What
information have we as to the policy of the Government—
as to their past policy or their present intentions ? (Cheers.)
Why, there is not a single paper of any importance upon
the table. (Hear, hear.) If it is true that time is of the
greatest importance to Denmark, it would seem to be no
less true that time is of the greatest importance to her Ma-
jesty's Ministers—(hear, hear)—and that they are deter-
mined not to give us the information we want, but to wait
for the chapter of accidents—possibly, as was said by Sir
Abel Handy, "until the fire goes out of itself." (Laughter
and cheers.) That is the position of the Government. And
what is the position of the House ? Here we come sweating
to our places day by day, having nothing to do when we are
in our places on the home policy, but asking questions on
the foreign poLicy of this country ; and the house has never
yet had an answer what that foreign policy was. We have
no sort of information, even while our friendly allies are
being butchered, and we standing by as cold bystanders,
teeing no measures, as far as the House of Commons knows;
the First Minister of the Crown using language of intimi-
dation and menace ; so that this country is reduced to a
position that in every foreign print shop an Englishman is
represented as an object of ridicule; and yet Government
comes down complacently—at least, I dare say in a few
minutes the noble lord the Secretary of the Admiralty
will come down, and move a vote for a reduction of the
naval estimates ; while, if there be any truth in the ap-
pearance of things, or any ground for the threats of the
Prime Minister, we ought at least to be preparing for a
continental war. Well, Sir, I say if this be a House of
Commons with common spirit, do not let us be satisfied
with merely getting up and using language—as the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer very properly says, " throwing
up a few harmless fireworks "—but let us have a vote.
Now, Sir, I feel so strongly the humiliating position in
which this house is placed—(hear)—that, if I meet with
any encouragement, I will now move a vote which will
prove whether these are harmless fireworks which aro being
let off, and will clear up the fog which hangs on the Trea-
sury bench. (Opposition cheers.) I say, sir, that we have
no business to vote these navy estimates with a reduction of
5,000 men Med boys. We have no business to come to the
consideration of this vital subject until we know the posi-
tion of the country with regard to Germany and Denmark.
(Opposition cheers.) Therefore, if I meet with any common
support—unless my hon. friend the President of the Board
of Trade will get up and give some explanation of the
Schleswig-Holstein question—(laughter)—which he is said
to be so peculiarly master of—(laugnter)—unless that hap-
pens, I shall move that these navy estimates be postponed
until the papers relating to Schleswig-Holstein and Ger-
many be laid on the table of the house. I move that those
estimates be postponed to this day three weeks.
Sir J. HAY seconded the motion.

were—

Sir F. SMITH thought it was quito necessary that a post-
ponement should take place, on the ground that sufficient
time had not been given to examine those estimates and the
three volumes which had accompanied them. (Cries of
"Divide.")
Lord C. PAGET said that exactly the same course was
taken with regard to the naval estimates this year as last
year, and that members had had the same time to consider
the question.

Mr. ROEBUCK did not wish the house to be misled.
The question was whether they wore to know anything
about Denmark. (llear.) It was not only the naval esti-
mates; it was the Government—(hear)—and if they were
put in a minority on the present occasion they all distinctly
understood what would be the necessary consequence thereof.
(Laughter.)
Mr. OSBORNE—Nothing at all.
Mr, ROEBUCK—That was the understanding clearly.

THE SIJN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING,

If this question were earned, it was quite clear to the house
and the country that the House of Commons had no further
confidence in the Government of the country as regarded
its foreign policy. As far as he himself was concerned, that
was his opinion ; and many gentlemen in that house were
of the same opinion, and if they had courage in their hearts
they would vote in favour of the motion of the hon. gentle-
man opposite. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. GLADSTONE—If there be any fog near to my hon.
friend (Hr. Osborne), or anywhere else, it is desirable that
it should be dispelled before the house gives a vote. The
construction which has been put upon that vote by the hon.
and learned member for Sheffield I am not prepared to say
is an untrue construction. It is certainly a fundamental,
though an ordinary, part of the business of the country
that is standing for discussion to-night, merely that we
should go into a committee of supply to consider the navy
estimates. My hon. friend has taken a step perhaps the
strongest any gentleman could take by a directly hostile
motion against the Government, without any notice what-
ever—(loud cheers from both sides of the house)—and my
hon. friend who rallies us on our state of darkness appears
to me to be hardly in the clearer condition of understanding
himself, when on a sudden he undercook to propose this
motion, because, Sir, there are no new facts before the house.
(Ironical cheers from the Opposition.) The position in which
my hon. frienl now finds himself is this, that the papers
relating to Danish negotiations have not been produced.
That is a fact which was perfectly within the knowledge of
my hon. friend at the time when the notice was given that
her Majesty's Jovernment to-night would propose to pro-
ceed with the ordinary business of the country. Ho has
thought fit to challenge that course of proceeding, Perhaps
my hon. friend may say—(divide)—that he wishes to declare
his want of confidence in the foreign policy of the Govern-
ment, and my ion. friend the member for Sheffield, with
perfect frankness and fairness, has placed his motion on
that ground. But, to return to my point, it was due to my
hon. friend himself, it was due to her Majesty's Government,
that if a motion was to be taken and vote taken impeaching
the foreign polity of the Government,and declaring a want
of confidence ii that foreign policy on the part of this
house, notice should have been given. (Cheers) There-
fore, when I meet the taunts of my hon, friend about the
state of darknessin which Ministers are placed by express-
ing a doubt that its own mind is not in the clearest state,
it is because I tilt,* that his proposal is not consistent with
the rules of Parliament ; and if he entertains that intention,
he ought to allow the members of the House of Commons
to be aware of it. And if my hon. friend is disposed to give
notice of such a motior, or if my hon. and learned friend
opposite feels that dispisition, I can only say that no per-
sons will be more ready to join issue on that subject than
those who compose her Majesty's Government. (Cheers.)
Mr. OSBORDE, rising to explain, said—lt is totally
impossible for me, or any other gentleman in this house, to
know what the foreign policy of the Government is, until
these papers are presented. (Cries of "Divide" and
" Order.")
Mr. DISRAELI—The house is placed in a position of a
critical kind. (A laugh.) Although the hon. gentleman
opposite may thick it extremely amusing, I doubt whether
those whom he si s next to are of that temperament or vein.
I never concealed, especially of late, my opinion of the
foreign policy of ler Majesty's Government, and I should
never be afraid, it any issue were placed before us,of giving
my opinion and ratting on that opinion by vote—but I cer•
tainly do think it is of the greatest importance that, what-
ever may be the result, the Government should wat say that
the decision was errived at by a surprise. (Hear, hear.) It
seems to me of tin utmost importance that there should be
fair notice of the ntention of the house, and that a verdict
should not be talon at this time, especially in the absence
of the head of the Government. (Cheers.) It is perfectly
open for the hon, and gallant member and the hon, and
learned member fir Sheffield to give notice of any motion
they like. They act quite independently of myself and
my friends, and if they do not give notice of any
motion I cannot doubt, in the present state of Europe,
that an opportunity will be afforded to the house of
Commons, unless they relinquish all their rights and obli-
gations of expressing an opinion, and that soon, on the
foreign policy of the Government. I cannot conceive that
this opportunity pill not be afforded, Papers are laid on
the table on all matters under negotiation, and they form
the case of the Government; and it is to the advantage of
the Government that those papers which are produced
should be placed tapon the table of this house. Certainly,
this year we have been placed in a position in which we
have never been placed before. (Hear, hear.) We are
deprived of papers which should have been before the house,
and therefore I am not surprised at the temper and dispo-
sition of the house under such circumstances; and alter to-
night the Government must feel that it is absolutely neces-
sary, in order to reed the difficulties of this case, no longer
to offer apologies, which have been ai nausea in administered
to the house. I cannot doubt that the papers will be on the
table of the house coon. When they are on the table, it
seems improbable that the house can refrain from giving a
verdict one way or the other on those papers, Ido entreat
the house calmly to consider its position. It is possible that
an advantage might be gained over the Government; but,
assuming that, will it be satisfactory to us to-morrow to
find that a verdict against the Government has been so
gained on their foreign policy without any notice, and in the
absence of the chief Minister of the Crown ? (Cheers.) I
hope soon to see the cLief Minister of the Crown amongst
us. The right hon. gentleman:the Chancellor of the
Ex-
chequer seemed to intimate what was the cause of the
absence of the noble lord ; but it has not reached me
through the usual means of social information that the
absence of the noble lord was caused by indisposition.
Sir G. GREY—That is so.

Mr. DISRAELI—I very much regret it, because, under
all the circumstances, the presence of the noble lord is a
source of groat satisfaction ; but it would have been easy
to have intimated that to the house ; and I say this as an
additional reason why the house should not come to a deci-
sion upon that vote which would be :accepted by the Go-
vernment as a verdict upon their foreign podcy. I condemn
that policy, not merely as relates to Denmark and Germany
only, but I think it a deplorable and disastrous policy,
which has reduced the infiLence and lowered the dignity of
this country, But the Huse of Commons should come to
this conclusion after ample discussion, after an appeal to
sufficient documents, and after all those matters which give
solemnity and force to a decision, and which would give
solemnity and force to their verdict. That verdict ought
not to be obtained by surprise, without discussion, which it
seems the present disposition of the house would do; and
therefore I do trust the hon. and gallant member, who, I
think in a very spirited manner—(laughter)—made this
proposition, will upon reflection feel that it will not be with-
out benefit to the conduct of public business to withdraw his
motion; but if he persists, he will really prevent that very
result he most desires, namely, that the foreign policy of
the Government should bo fairly considered, deliberated,
and decided. (Cheers.)
Sir G. GREY said no ono more than the Government de•
sired that the deliberate opinion of the House of Commons--
and through the House of Commons the country—should be
expressed on the foreign policy of the Government. He
entirely concurred with the right hon. gentleman, that to
come to a vote on that question, when the hon. gentleman
said he did not know what that policy was, was a proceed-
ing unworthy of the House of Commons. His hon. friend
had said the Danish papers would be laid on the table at
the earliest possible moment, and then he hoped the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Osborne) would give notice of a motion on
the foreign policy of the Government. With regard to his
noble friend at the head of the Government, he had called
on him that morning and found him suffering from a cold
—which was hardly surprising, considering the state of the
weather—and a slight attack of gout ; and the noble lord told
him that, subject to the opinion of his physician, he intended
to be in the House of Commons that night, and he hoped ho
would be shortly there. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CLAY and Mr. KINQL.Kri insisted that the motion,
of Mr. Osborne was not intended to pledge the House to an
opinion as to the foreign policy of the Government, since it
was matter of complaint that the house know nothing of
that policy.
The discussion was continued by Lord R. Montagu, Lord
Dunkellin, Lord Ingestro, Mr. Walter, Mr, Neate, Mr.
Laird, and other members.

The House then divided, when the right hon. gentleman
the member for Bucks and a large number of the Conserva-
tive members left the house, to avoid voting. The numbers

For Mr. Oaborne's motion
Against it
Majority .. —163
THE MALTA DOCK.

Captain TALBOT, who had given notice of a motion
(which he was precluded from making by a point of form),
—" That the project of constructing a dock at the head of
the Marsa at Malta be abandoned, and that the site at the
head of the French Creek, recommended by Admiral Sir
William Martin and Vice-Admiral Codrington, be selected
for that purpose,"—called the attention of the house to the
subject, complaining of the conduct of the Admiralty in
the matter, and fortifying his complaint by a great variety
of details, showing the disadvantages of the Mares, and the
advantages of the French Creek.

Lord C. PAGET, after defending himself against charges
of misstatement brought aganst him by Captain Talbot,
and justifying the course taken by the Admiralty, ob-
served that this was not the proper time to discuss the
question, an engineer having been sent out, and till his re-
port was received he asked the house to delay the expres-
sion of its opinion.
Sir J. PAKINGTON thought that this was a time to
discuss the question; they wanted no more reparts of
engineers, and be hoped the opinion of the house would be
taken upon it before more money was thrown away.
After some observations and statements by Mr. C. For-
tescue, Captain Jervis, Sir J. Hay, Mr. "Whitbread, and
Mr. Addington, the subject dropped.
Mr. LINDSAY called attention to the report of the
Commissioners appointed in IS6O to inquire into the con-
trol and management of her Majesty's naval yards, with
the view of suggesting that the recommendations of the
Commissioners ought to be carried into effect. He read
some of the recommendations of the,Royal Commissioners,
and asked what had been done to carry them out, and if
nothing had been done, he asked the reason why.
Mr. BENTINCK said all the recommendations of the
Commissioners might be included in one—an alteration in