The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-31 00:00:00

DEFENCE.

Mr. ANDERSON called the attention of the House
to the report of the Select Committee of session 1849,
appointed " to inquire into the practicability of providing,
by means of the commercial steam marine of the country,
a reserve move the
steam navy, available for the national defence
when required," and intimated he would.
Dion of this House,
safety,
follow-
ing resolution :—" That it is the opinion
that in order the better to provide
and to preserve peace,
for tuu public
to economise the public resources,
navy promptly
it is desirable that measures should
steambe adopted with a
view to render the commercialde
available for the national he
should submit to the House
beenee in ease of emergency. ,
In submitting a subject which was scarcely
this motion
a few practical factsonn
any
matter that they could
second in importaonnsideration. The violent political
recently taken place on the continent
1 in France, had naturally
have under their
excited
changes which hadjy
means of national
of Europe, est' °
with respect to our
some s°lifnitucdasce of a sudden invasion, and the result was
defence in
sate©ment of rifle corps, proposition to
and a
the " militia. This
enrol th° A , however, was beginning at the
wrong 01" Preparations should be made to t
invasion, and to meet the enemy on that l
prevent
an
element whereon
to
we had always boon accustomed e
conquer. There
was a prevalent opinion that the introduction of steam navigation had destroyed advantages wewhich
h formerly
i
possessed in our insular position. That s fallacious.ounery
We were in a better • ' in that wa
position
had been in the history of the country. For every
steam-ship that the French possessed we had twenty.
The United Kingdom possessed 1,300 mercantile
steam-vessels of all classes, amounting to about
300,000 tons, and 100,000 horse power, most of which
could be made available as a defensive force on the
shortest notice. Government should make an arrange-
' meat with a hundred or two of the larger class of coast-
ing steamers, which might be simply and inexpensively
armed so as to furnish a force sufficient to repel any pos-
sible invasion. Steamers of from 400 up to 1,000 tons
might be made to carry two largo traversing guns, 32 or
68-pounders, at an expense of from 50/. to 1501. Of
course he should not include the packet steamers be-
cause they were already fitted up to carry heavy guns,
and Government had power to appropriate them to the
public service whenever it should be deemed necessary.
The owners of these steamers would nc, doubt be wil-
ling enough to make the alterations necessary, the out-
lay being returned by an annual premium. There were
surely sufficient guns in our ordnance stores to supply
200 steamers, and a ship having been surveyed by the
Admiralty and fitted with the sweeps for receiving the
guts, the ordnance should provide the guns and car-
riages, them at the
and place nearest ordnance depot, to
the port from which the vessel usual!) sailed. As to the
manning of the vessels, th . usual crews would be ready 1
enough to volunteer, and, if necessary, crews could he
made up from the coast guard, half-pay t_ ffieers, and our
commercial marine, When be (Mr. Anderson) moved in
1643 fa 4 Ccantuittee to luNiXe into 0313 fitibitOtt it YtitB

stated that it was done with a view to promote some
personal object. But he begged now distinctly to state
that he had no interest in any steam navigation what-
ever, except one company, in e hich the ships were
already under the same regulation that he wished to
apply to many more.—(Hear, hear.) There was a pre-
judice among many naval men that merchant ship`
could not carry guns; but the evidence of the most com-
petent naval authorities examined before the Committee
went to show that nearly all our sett-going steamer°
were capable of carrying arms. He held in his band
the report of the Committee appointed on his motion in
the year 1849, to which he wished to call the attention of
the House. That Committee, after going very
minutely
into the question, and examining a number of witness!e,
said, " The Committee are of opinion that mercantile
steam-ships of all sizes, and the strength necessary for
the reception of such guns as are used in the roll
navy, would be most useful as an auxiliary force for
our national defence, and your Committee do not per-
ceive any difficulty in carrying out such a measure.
That a prompt development of the whole available
maritime resources of the country, in the event °f
sudden hostilities, is most desirable us a means for
the preservation of peace; that the steps necessary to
render such mercantile steamers available for the Per
-
pose, and the remuneration to be given by the public for
taking them and holding them liable for the public
service, must be a matter of arrangement between the
owners and the Government, on which the Committee
do not think it desirable to offer any opinion." Not-
withstanding that report of the Committee, up to this
time nothing had been done by the Government; but as
the subject of national defence was now exciting so
interest, he considered it his duty again to bring w.•••
question before the House.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant
Admiral near him (Admiral Berkeley) stated the other
evening that in the course of twenty-four hours he
could line the Channel with steam-vessels. He (Mr'
Anderson) should be surprised if that could not be done,
seeing that thirty vessels would be sufficient merely to
signal each other, and the private company with which
he was connected could accomplish that object; but what
was required was the collecting a large number of vessels
within hail of each other, so as to operate on one point_
at a very short notice. Such a force would not be used.
for aggressive purposes, but simply to defend the country
against aggression, and the very knowledge of the ex-
istence of a force would be one of the best weans of
guarding against any attempt at aggr essinn.—(llf'r'
hear.) Ho considered the adoption of which
plan nie"h
he had submitted to the House would be very advanta-
geous, and trusted the House would agree to the resole'
Lion which he had already read.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MACKINNON thought it right to say a few
words upon this subject, having had the honour of pre-
siding over the Committee to which the last speaker had
referred.—(Hear, hear.) The report which the Ho-
nourable Member had read was unanimously agreed
to by the Committee, and there could be no
doubt that in the event of a war or threatened
invasion our mercantile marine navy might be rendered
available fur the national service.—(Hear, hear.)
There were ample funds at the disposal of the
Government for rendering it so available and sup"
plying each mercantile steam-vessel with arms and
ammunition. There were no less than 1,230 steam
vessels attached to the mercantile interestof this country,
and if a moiety of that number were rendered fit for
service in case of war, an invasion from any poiecf
e
the compass would be perfectly impossible. P.°
therefore advocated this measure from motives of eee"
fenny, and he thought it the House would only give
the subject a moment's consideration it would
_
see at a glance the feasibility of the
scheme. The idea of blockading the enemies' ports
had long been exploded, for in the event of a gale of wind
arising our ships might be forced to put to sea, and bef.ofot
they could return again to their posts the enemy
mig
embark her troops, and our coast being left unprotected
a landing would not be so impossible as some peo.pl_
imagined. Now it' this scheme were edopted sacea!
danger would be avoided, and he therefore hoped te"
House would agree to the motion. had
Mr. STAFFOR D must do the Hon. Member who
brought forward this important subject the justice to
say that, whatever decision tho House might come
ow_
with regard to this qaestion—whether favourablbeutir.
othereise—his course had been not only plain
ness-like, but entirely removed from all party caonndsidenrai-
tions.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had tur eu
but as an
his attention to the subject, not as a partisan,
Englishman, and he must say that he had never known
a Committee which had paid greater attention to ri
ject, or conducted an inquiry in a more fair and iro "'
Wanner.—(Hear.)
haenhiroru. —5 e
Theoasria)teHofeFriend the
that of foreign powers. His Right Hon.
our would
naval now f
ree proceedas
coti
no p
aa.
rye Pdbaef
withre
43 he
Secretary for the Home Department stated last nightb in
his speech on the Militia Bill the following
of the line, 5 frigates,
number of vessels of war on the home station rn9dsroe_a_cy•
to serve-9 sail other
steamers, and 8 paddle-steamers. There were de'
vessels nearly completed. The whole of our naval
fence on the home station stood thus— 1 sloop,
is re"
Vessels. Men.
9 530
•••
1,544
7 ••
16 • 6,642
•••
.• 11 ... 2,822
• 5 368
Total ...
To these add Hecate (cruising), 160 men; rill „sets
Antelope, 55; Vulcan, 152; making in all 52 V
bore,
and 12,328 men, exclusive of 4,500 Marines on 0.
and coast guard and dockyard battalions; being
gether 29,648 men. In addition he bad to mentionablet
45 ... 11,906
to,
55;
Simoorn and Vulcan, large screw-steamers, each capbe-
of moving a regiment, and several small stealnersision
sides. The whole of her Majesty's ships in comral
were—.

Woolwich ...
Sheerness ...
Portsmouth
Devonport ...
Cork
~,

East Indies and China ... ••• ''' 19
Cape of Good Hope ... ••• •'' 6
Coast of Africa ... "• he
Subsequently to the dismissal of the •Noble Lord t t
_Member for Tiverton, a notion had arisen among
foreign powers that England was inclined to abandono
her efforts for the suppression of the slave tre" '
tether it be wise or unwise to keep
Wheth might fri-
up the A t
can squadron he would not stop to inquire, but he must
be allowed to say, that with regard to the number ~
vessels on the coast of Africa, long they so as'r
lowed to remain there the Admiralty would feel it the'
duty to keep them in an efficient state.—(Hear, beer'?,
He would now proceed to state the number of foreigue
ships in commission, and wished to call the attention 01
the House to this curious document, which had been
prepared with great care and attention. To begin vit
were al
Russia. The number of Russian line-of-battle ship
commission were—in the Baltic, 27; Black See,
making together, 45. Of frigates and corvettes there
,
were—in the Baltic, 12; the Block See, 12; togethere
24. Of brigs, sloops, and schooners there were—in th
Baltic, 15; the Black Sea, 19; together, 34; making a
total of 103. Then, with regard to steam-vessel!,
Russia had in the Baltic 8, and in the Black Sea 6 fn'
gates; of small steamers there were in the Baltic 5, and
in the Black Sea 15; in all 34—the entire naval force
of Russia being 137. He would next take French 5110
in commission, The French had—ot line•of-battle ships,
7; frigates, 11; corvettes, 10; brigs, 11; small vessels,
12; transports, 22; in all 73. Of steam-vessels of 600'
horse power and upwards they had 2; between
500 and 600, 1; between 400 and bOO, 8; be-
tween 300 and 400, 1; between 200 and 300, 151
between 100 and 240, 31; under 100, 8;
in all, 66. The
novel forces iii the three great maritime powers of Eu-
lope were: Line-of-battle ships—Great _Britain, 72;
France, 45; Russia,
45. Frigates—Great J3ritain, 83;
Fiance, 45; Russia, 10. The total Stifling force was.—
Great Britain, 236; France, 257; Russia, 174. Coming
Russia, 8. Of steamers under 200-horse power, Great
to large steamers—Great Britain had 37; France, 61;
Britain had 97; France, 57; Russia, 24. But it should
be remembered that we had also the large Transat-
lanticand it was shown ill a letter from Mr.
steamers;
Turnbull, our Consul at Mi e
ars ll
es 9 e thatone of theso
•
steamers, the Montezuma , carried tn 1848 from Oran to
Port llonduras , from the 20. h to the 24th of April,
1,818 men of the 6th Light Infantry 56th B, inieo
and eg
.....
of the Line, and 195 officer
making 2,013 men altogether. s and crew of the ship_,_
went through these (The Hon. Member; Rho
statistics with great rapidity, then
:entered into some details showing
that it is not 0 • for the purpose of
Profe
pared to resist
possible on all occasions to be folly o
the transport by means.
atoeinin, but he of troops
are tto
unable to re spoke so indistinctly that we With
reference port that portion of his
observations.)
would be
to the st t. .
a times above given he said it w
seen from these figures that ' • Power' fro'
which most one great foreign
was to be feared, stood almost upon en
equal footing with ourselves • and it should never be for-
gotten that the nee ' • in der to cell-
essary preparations or
plete the work of invasion, which formerly would
hellte
occupied a month, could now be accomplished in a nig.hes
and it therefore became of essential importance, " • 10
attack,
House wished to render the coast secure from
see that our navy was placed upon an efficient footinp
Much had been done since the Duke of Wellington, lv.!
1847, warned us of our defenceless state; but still more
remained to be done if the country desired to teach 11,
reign nations that not only an invasion but an attack
upon our coast was impracticable and impossible; 1361" r
had no hesitation in confessing that before manY of ell
r beships of war could be rendered fit for sea, the se-,vel he
of no less than three thousand additional men woni"..h
necessary. The Hon. Gentleman had come forwardly:lo3%
the opinions of several eminent men, showing the 1 ,
portanee of mercantile steamers in cases of erunrgerec_
Before the Committee' which sat upon this Obi":
Captain Chads stated that ho thought it highli neeeL
fiery, as an auxiliary measure, that we should have ntraeL.
cantile steamers to defend our coasts against the num-
ber ber of armed French steamers which would be sent , _
to annoy them in case of war, and he added that
,c,ut
did not think that less than 150 or 200 of the ra.„
powerful vessels would be sufficient for that pure the
Captain Henderson also gave it as his opinion before
of
same Committee, that we ought to have a number id
hen
light fast steamers in the Channel, in case a War 5 ; I
break'both to protect our own trade and to criv
tie
the enemy's vessels. He added, that in the event
.. es
war, the enemy would be sure to. have numberless 1031ge°
and fast steamers, with a small complement Of 6eS our
on hoard, cruising about the Channel and annoying to
ej tO
coasts. These opinions were all of them favours d)
the views of the Hon. Gentlemen, and he (Mr. S'affpercied
had no hesitation in saying that the Admiralty cone.
pot
the principle.—(Hear, hear.) The Admiralty b,.3121, ono
waited fur the motion of the Hen. Geutlemen, neiince
of the first things that they did on coming int 9 r one
was to put themselves in CoilliDUntioll Wlth Pe-soh..
who could supply them with information upon the the
jeer,. The present Board of Admiralty acceded to his
proposition Of the Hon, Member; they acquiesced in;_r,
motion, and desired must sincerely to carry it intone thv 0
—(Hear, near.) But he must be permitted to renli.bich
Honourable Gentleman of the difficulty in which
the Admiralty found themselves, for PS the 0
cdtimmes hid already ptiiiked, thoto w of CO"Se

fund available for immediately carrying out a resolution
of that House upon the subject.—(Hear, bear.) The
expense had been, he thought, underrated by the Hon.
Member; but even that was not the main difficulty. It
wont i be necessary to reserve to the Government the
power of investigating ail the details of the question,
for he apprehended that some difficulty might arise be-
tween naval officers and crews of mercantile steamers
serving together in cases of emergency. The crews
might also probably be unwilling to place themselves
under martial law, and it was here that the chief diffi-
culty lay —(Hear, hear.) He was perfectly certain that
the present Board of Admiralty would rejoice if every
vessel now belonging to any company could be rendered
subservient to purposes of defence, and he was not pre-
pared to say that by strict economy such a desirable re-
sult might not be arrived at without any considerable
increase of expense.—(Hear, hear.) The Admiralty
would carry out the resolution proposed by the Hon.
• Gentleman in the fairest spirit, and in the earnest belief
that it might be brought to a succ ,ssful issue.—(Hear,
hear.) And he thought that the following words of
Mr. Laing before the Committee afforded some encou-
ragement for hoping, that in cases of emergency
no insuperable difficulties would arise on the part of
the. merchant seamen towards rendering the mercantile
marine available for the defence of the country. Mr.
Laing was asked whether he had any means of knowing
what were the views of the merchant seamen and engi-
neers on the subject, and whether they would make any
complaint against being subjected to the rules of the
Queen's service. Mr. Laing replied—" The only proof
that I can give is this. Last year, at a time when there
was disturbance, and no one knew what the result might
be, I received orders to have so many ships in readiness
ss might be required. It never entered into my mind
to ask the crews or engineers any question on the sub-
ject. I merely told them that ships were wanting, and
that we did not know where they were going to, and
they never asked any questions about it, nor exhibited
the least reluctance." It was in no niggard spirit that
the Board of Admiralty accepted the proposition of the
Hon. Member, but in the earnest hope that the defences
thus provided would be found sufficient, and that in these
arrangements a good feeling might be promoted between
the navy and the mercantile marine, so that another
connexion might be formed between those sister branches
of the sea service of the country. The Admiralty ac-
cepted the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman in the
erieit. in which it had been brought forward, and he
, confidently trusted tnat Lee _--la t., fnund
to arise from it —(Hear, bear.)
Captain SCOBELL considered that the statement of
the lion. Member the Secretary to the Admiralty was
very satiaractory, and he thought it would
go far to show that the country was Perfectly safe.—
(Cheers.) The speech should properly have pre-
ceded the debate on the militia last night, for
it would have dissipated the doubts which many
Honourable Members entertained with regard to the
defence of the country. He rejoiced that the
• Admiralty had thought proper to avail themselves of
every means of defence for the purpose of guarding the
British Channel.
Admiral STEWART rejoiced in the employment of
mercantile steamers in cases of emergency, but be
could not shut his eyes to the fact that in the mixed strews
which manned them there might be great difficulty in
obtaining that amount of discipline which was necessary
ould ad
a all vessels employed as a national defence. He
should feel rejoiced at everything that w d to the
cordiality of feeling between the mercantile marble and
the navy. —(Hear, hear.) An Hon. Gentleman had
stated that there were not ships ready to go to sea, but
he overlooked the fact of their screw-vessels; and he
(Admiral Stewart) hoped the day was not distant when
vessels of war would no longer put to sea unaccompanied
by a tender or screw. There was an important ques-
tion asked—" How was the active list to be kept
h reeved
efficient?" That was a very difficult prOb
eolet m•—
ad ffiear,
hear.) He did not say the late Governor
the difficulty, but they had taken an iePgrtant, step
towards the alleviation of the difficulty.--(L:ear, °ear.)
It could scarcely be done by reference to the Years of
the officers, as in other countries, for Lord, Duncan
fought one of his greatest battles at the age o' "renty
years.—(Hear, hear.) Another great problem was the'
manning of the navy and the state of the gunspry. The
gunnery afloat now was as different as;possibl, froln that
in use at the close of the last war—as dieetent aa a
blunderbuss from a rifle. He now anxiously Press
could ed oft
the notice of the Admiralty the fact that they not
pay too much attention to the education of the seamen
gunners of the fleet. He denied there were tyrannicali
officers in the navy at present; the day for that crass of
Bien was passed over, and be asserted the British navy
Was better treated than any other class of met in the
Public service.
Captain HARRIS regarded the statement of the Secr,etary
of the Admiralty as most important, particularly " was
divested of all official reserve. He did not admire
that o-
cial reserve, because the French and Russians were quite
aware of the resources of this country, both by sea and
—(Hear, hear.) The arguments of the Hon. Membert°r
a
Bath was, that we had not a sufficient number of aten
elll-
vessels to prevent the advent of a foreign power t°
shores. And almost in the same breath he said, that eel ",,s
fences were sufficient, He (Captain Harris) was at a less
o
.reconcile these two statements.
Captain SCOBELL had stated that we had a sufficient
number of ships, but that we had not men to man theta,
Captain HARRIS said that was the case, and that !'s
the reason why Parliament was now called upon to poll"
some additional defences, which would be available in CI
of sudden emergency. Ye was truly glad that the Govetl-
. same at the eleventh hour, had proposed to man the DK,
by means of a reserve force. He had himself suggested
plan, and he hoped that in working it out, some margin
Would be left to the Board of Admiralty to lay down sea;
regulations, especially with respect to the service of warrant
officers in the coasting trade as they might deem necessarl;
He was glad that his suggestion as to a naval reserve had
been adopted by the late Board of Admiralty.
Mr. HUME said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stafford) had
satisfactorily proved that our coasts were not so denuded of
protection as had been said. He trusted that the Admiralty
would not allow the practice of sending home ships-of war
to bring bullion merely for the purpose of giving a per
ventage to the captains. The Hon. Admiral (H. Stewart)
had talked of the high feeling of our naval officers, and had
stated ,that they were well affected to our commercial
Marine. How could that be the case when our naval officers
Would not throw out an anchor or a cable to merchant vessel
ix distress without demanding salvage? This was an abuse
Which ought to be remedied. No captain of a French or
American man-of-war ever demanded a, shilling for services
rendered to a merchant vessel, but in this country many of
our officers had sued in the courts to obtain payment from
merchants for services rendered to vessels belonging to them.
An order bad, he understood, been already issued remedying
a portion of this abuse, but he hoped the Government would
complete what they had so well begun in that respect, and
direct that our officers should afford assistant to merchant
vessels in distress without claiming any salvage. He must
state that a very great improvement had of late years
' been effected in the pay, provisions, and accommodations
of our sailors. No difficulty was experience by the ameri-
cans in manning their navy, and he could not conceive
why the English navy should be an exception. He doubted
Much whether the proposed naval reserve would do much
good. If the House considered the statements made in the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stafford), and considered
also the speech made the day before yesterday at Paris by
the President, in which he stated that he wished to cultivate
most amicable relations with other countries—that he in-
tended to reduce the armament of France, and that the law
was re-established—he thought they might dismiss the sub-
ject of a Militia Bill altogether.—(Hear.) Our colonies did
not require ships of war for their protection. It was singular
to notice that no mention had been made in this discussion
of the United States, which, in fact, was the only com-
peting power with us as to a mercantile marine. At the
termination of the Mexican war the United States reduced
their naval establishment in order that they might husband
their resources, so that they might inore effectually employ
them if a war should break out. This was an example that
the Government of this country ought to follow. He wished
to encourage our commercial navy. Let free trade be the
word, and then we should find no difficulty in manning our
navy. He would merely add, that the statements which
he had heard from the Government was extremely satisfac-
tory—(Hear.hear)—for. it evinced on their part an anxious
desire to improve the condition of the navy, and also to at-
tend to practical suggestions made by others.
Mr. W. COWPER wished to refer to one statement which
had been made by his Hen. Friend (Mr. Hame), who ap-
peared to have got rid of his usual good temper when he
spoke in somewhat disparaging terms of the officers of our
navy. Those officers had only received what they were
entitled to receive by the law, and therefore they could not
be blamed for demanding their legal eights. They were
gallant and honourable men, and they collie, not be accused
of being actuated by any grasping or unworthy motives.—
(Hear, hear.) He approved of the system of naval re-
serve, which he thought would furnish a body of
seamen,
.who would be paid and bound to assemble and join
.when required. He considered that blame was no.ititli3s
to be placed on Government for taking into account the
amount of naval strength of foreign powers. Our means
of defence ought to bear some proportion to the means of
attack possessed by foreign powers. He was of opinion
that our defences were not altogether in so satisfactory a
state as they ought to be; for he believed it would be found
that France had relatively a greater naval strength than we
had. He did not think the fear of invasion was such a folly
as had been described. He felt satisfied if we were by any
means dragged into a war with any foreign power, that power
would most certainly attack us by attempting to invade our
shores. Colonel Moore, who had treated the subject
scientifically, was of opinion that any attack upon this
Country would most probably be made in several places
simultaneously, so that if our naval force were concentrated
on any one place, the attacks at the two others would very
likely be most vigorous. It was said that disembarkations
were dangerous things—no doubt; but that did not prove
that they were not likely to be attempted, or that they
might not be successful. For, in war, the most audacious
attacks were often the most successful.
Captain PECHELL said he was sorry he had not heard
the speech of the Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty, but he
understood that the Hon. Gentleman had recommended some
sort of system for the defence of the coast. Now it was
absurd to place guns in a coast town without fortifications;
it was only the way to get the place battered down. Mere
guns were no defence against steamers with projectiles. Did
the Hon. Gentleman then Mean merely to mount guns?
Mr. STAFFORD.—No.
then, mean to fortify the
Captain PECHELL.—Did he,
Coast towns?
Mr. STAFFORD.—No.
Captain PECHELL.— Then what did the Hon. Gentleman
Mean?
Mr. STAFFORD.—As the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
Was not in the House when I spoke, he can scarcely expect
to understand what I said —(Hear, hear.) I said the south-
eastern coast was now defenceless.— ( Hear, hear.)
Captain PECHELL.— Well, let the Hon. Member make
another disposition of the naval force. He hoped such a
system as that of the martello towers would not be recurred
to,. which was nothing more than a system of jobbing
Why, there had been a great ditch dug 30 miles long and
28 feet wide, which was expected to stop a French army
that had crossed the Vistula or the Rhine.—(Laughter.)
however, it was really too bad that Hon. Members should
delay the business of the House by prolonging a discussion of
this sort.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," in the midst of
which the Gallant Gentleman, as if perceiving the applica-
tion of his observation to himself, sat down.)
Mr. ANDERSON shortly replied. He was so gratified
with the extremely satisfactory speech of the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Stafford) that he should withdraw his mo-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He first wished to explain two points.
The expense of the system he proposed would only be about
100004 a year; and the objeet a ilia Bole= Y9ao oopeoihlly

.z..; . t- -

promptitude, in order that the steamers might be ready for
war purposes at a week's notice.
Lord PALMERSTON said he hoped iron steamers would
not be subjected to the system, as they could not be used for
the purposes of war.—( Hear.)
Captain DUNCOMBE said the Admiralty had already ar-
rived at that conclusion.
THE WINE DUTIES.

Mr. ANSTEY moved for a Select Committee to inquire
into the causes of the decline of the revenue derived from
the import duties on wines. He did not mean to contend
that the duties had declined during the last two years, but
that the revenue was less now under high duties than in
former years it had been under low duties. He could prove
that under lower duties the consumption had been greater
and the revenue larger. In 1788-90 the wine trade was
comparatively free. The genius of Mr. Pitt had emancipated
it from many regulations which the prejudices of former
days had imposed. The treaties of 1786 with France had
been made the prelude for remission of the duties, which had
been reduced from 9s. 2d. a gallon to 45. 6d. on French
wines, and 3s. a gallon on Peninsular. And Mr. Pitt then
said, '‘ The reduction on the duty will increase the consump-
tion and afford an opportunity for exporting fabrics in *hich
the capital and navigation of the country arc engaged, and for
disposing of cotton and woollen and hardware manufactures,
as well as increasing our revenue." In 1784-86 the annual
consumption of all wines imported had been 3,350,130 gal-
lons • in 1788.90 (after the reduction of duty) it had risen to
5,742,600 gallons, showing an increase of consumption to
the extent of 2,292,530 gallons, and the revenue had in-
creased 88,586/. In 1791 the consumption was 7,850,000
gallons; in 1849, only 6,437,200 gallons; yet the popula-
tion had doubled in the meantime. In the reign of Charles
11. the duties on wine had been only 4d. or 6d. per gallon,
and in 1669 the consumption was more than 9,000,000 gal-
lons (of imported wines)—more than it had ever been since.
Under the Methuen treaty, in the time of Queen Anne, the
duties bad been increased to about ss. a gallon. In the
period of Mr. Pitt the duties had been reduced, and since
that time had been varied fifteen times. About twenty
years ago, under Mr. Robinson, the duties had been reduced ;
and the consumption had increased from 5,000,000 gallons to
8,000,000 gallons. In 1831 there had been a step towards
improvement by means of the equalisation of duties. But
in 1840 the duties had again been increased, and that in-
crease had continued to the present time, the duty on
French wine being ss. 6d. a gallon. The effect of the dif-
ferential duty in favour of Portuguese wines was, that whereas
that natural price of a pipe of Port would, but for the Oporto
Wine Company, be 101, and even under the monopoly of that
company would be only 204, the duty raised it to 33/. The
effect of the raising of the duty in 1840 had been to decrease
the consumption from 7,486,000 gallons to 6,550,000 gallons ;
and the revenue had declined from 1,849,600/. to 1,790,000/.
In live
..
years following„ the Ahleeetnhuesnatsroe9alt.y,
In
alie
tahvee7vee
annual uulvu.., ~.
_,,..
years following the lowered duties or e. 1.. eon,., the
had been 1,148,755/. ; in the five years following theglealarg
tion of duty under Mr. Robinson the amount had been about
1,500,0004 In the five years following 1839 it had been
1,849,6584 ; and in 1850 the amount had been (after the
increase of the duties) 1,167,9901. From these premises the
Hon. Member contended that the duties should be equalised,
, not by increasing the duties on Portuguese wines, but by di-
minishing the duties on French wines —a course which would
be the more just, since the Portuguese had systematically
disregarded the Methuen treaty. 'deprecating any resort to
an ad valorem duty, as impracticable, or at all events, as
opening the door to fraud, he was of opinion that a duty of
Is. a gallon on French wine, answering as nearly as
possible to the 1 franc octroi duty of France, would
be an equitable daty, and at the same time lead to an
increased consumption of real (not sparious) wine,
and to an accession of revenue. According to a
memorial presented two years ago to the Noble Lord the
Member for the City of London, it appeared that in Paris
the amount of wine consumed at 1 franc duty was at the
rate of 216 bottles per head per annum. Now, assuming the
consumption of wine in this country to be increased to only
the extent of three bottles per head, it would yield a revenue
of three millions, in place of one million and a half now
raised with so much difficulty. Supposing the amount to
be raised to 18 bottles per head (half of the amount con-
sumed in Hamburgh), the revenue would be benefited to
the extent of four millions per annum. Such a revenue
would enable the Government to get rid of much of the
house duty, to reduce those taxes which pressed upon the
comforts of the people, and would lead to a prospective re-
peal of the malt tax.—(Hear, hear.) He hadalreaaldsyo
stated that the monopoly of the Oporto Wine Company
enhanced the price of , wine in Portugal. He might
add that it was intimately connected with the subject-
matter of his motion, for it was well known that excessive
taxation on commodities of this kind not only checked com-
petition, but tended to create an artificial taste for spurious
articles. At the present moment the Portuguese Govern-
ment, by their system of taxing exports, got 350,000/. per
annum more out of the pockets of the people of this coun-
try than they were fairly entitled to. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman concluded by expressing his belief that
the adoption of his motion would lead generally to more
friendly commercial relations between this and other
countries.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman has entered upon a very long and,
as I collect, a very accurate narrative of the history of the
wine trade ; he has sketched it from the period of,the French
treaty of 1787 and has gone back, indeed, to the treaty
of Methuen. I can assure the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man that I entirely sympathise with the policy recom-
mended by Mr. Pitt—a policy founded on a high com-
mercial principle. I recognise the great advantage which
both countries derived from the policy then pursued, but I
may be permitted to say, that the principle adopted by Mr.
Pitt was the principle of reciprocity—(Hear, hear)—and
that although we have at several periods reduced the
duties on French wines, we do not find that France has
manifested the feeling of reciprocity for which we were in-
debted to Mr. Pitt. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman has
also stated some general principles of taxation, to which I
also give my assent. I think with him that reductions of
taxation may lead to increased consumption, but at the same
time I feel bound to take into consideration the circumstances
tinder which that increase of consumption may take place.—
(Rear, hear.) I cannot forget the immediate effect of a
considerable reduction in the wine duties in 1831, and I
therefore think it is necessary, in reference to the revenue of
4,11,e country, to treat the subject with considerable caution.
:ie motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman is not, in my
pinion, accurately expressed. He asks for a Committee to
c'nquire into the cause of th decline in the revenue derived
say that
import duties on weine. Now, it is not accurate to
'',Y that there has been any decline in the revenue so de-
rived.
And to show that I am correct I will place before
the House the last return, only just received of the
State of the wine trade for the last four years—and
eere,
eie Perhaps, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman will pardon
''"- for saying that I think, in order to form an opinion as
to the state of the revenue derived from the import duties
\",a,a.c,3'
tn branch of commerce, it is more practical to look to
,e- times in which we live thanto7.thoee
eoaf the Methuen
Peaty or
ire is a the French treaty of 1787.—(Hear, hear.) Now
ire
return of the quantities of wine retained for home
113sPolstion, and I will first take revenue ; for it is upon
f "Lcline of revenue that the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
r has dwelt. The return is drawn up to the last
IP cut, and, from it, it appears that the amount of duty
re,vf,,,41 on wine in the year 1849 was 1,732,000/. ; in 1850,
1,7771"8524
but.uet is entirely attributable to the large quantities
TiT:. 'LliTte, perceivesn'illlBs i,
821 t
110e0rjel. Is 'aand slightin declinelBs2 for ,
of I°e taken for home consumption by vintners and
licee., " Victuallers in anticipation of the increased con-
-s'l°l by strangers visiting the metropolis to see the
Gret -exhibition. It is a curious circumstance, that all
the rangement made in this respect were ill judged and
led fell great disappointment. Not only our own coun-
tryne congregated in the metropolis, but especially
foreigs, instead of wine drank beer, and particularly
LondtPorter, in enormous quantities.—(Hear, hear, and a
laugh. It is represented to inn officially that the foreigners
drankabileg but London porter, and this accounts for the
appare diminution in the consumption of the year just
conclue• But even in 1851 there was not a general
deereasin the revenue derivable from wine. The diminu-
tion wanly in one article. Especially in anticipation of an
augmen' consumption of that article by foreiner, the trade
with littforesight took port wine out of bond; and it is
only in tt artiele that a diminution appears. Compared
with 18150 d 1850 there is an increase. A considerable
quantity'7ine was taken out of bond in 1850, in anticipa-
tion of th'',hibition. Of French wines taken out of bond,
there weka 1851, 340,000 gallons, and, in 1852, 447,000
ograliloon7:o;o6nalotriisn.
in-
crease the year just ended there is an excess
2,469,000 lops,,s
nOdf: Si
np apishiBs2,
2,winesss3,otohoe;r e
showingwer e , in a
nlB 51,
fore, has bt in the wines of Portugal. Of the wines of
Portugal
lf )tiliC/
out
tllons in 1852. The diminution, there-
were, in 18.2,446,000f0
in 1851, 2).000 gallons; in
ihnolmBseo,co2n,67B7opotoiogna,
gallons;
in
gallons • and in 1852 (showing a
diminution):,s24,ooo gallons. Comparing 1852 with
184
and9,h Lead hooves there is an increase. The Honour-
ableGentleman will see, therefore, that the
terms of his 'tion are not correct.—(Hear' hear.)The
quantities of 'des of all kinds, including Cape, retained
for home coniption during the last four years are ail
follow :—ln 18 there were 6,136,000 gallons • in 1850,
6,251,000 galls
in 1851, 6,437,010 ; and in 1852,
6,280,000; the; year exhibiting an excess over 1849 and
1850, and nearltlualling the great year 1851. Therefore
I again say it iPneous to assert that there has been any
decline in the tulle derived from wine.—(Hear.) Sir,
if the Hon. and arned Gentleman really requires a com-
mittee to inquir",t9 tbe revenue derived from wine, I,'
knowing the assiY which he would bring to bear in the
investigation, whet oppose it.—(Hear, hear.) But it
appears to me that is perfectly master of the facts of the
case, as, no doubt, also a great number of other Gentle-
men in this Hoiri Hear, hear.) The principles of
political eeonomyt;cll the Honourable and Learned
Garernivteleirt mnveooruelet 'Y are familar to most of us, and it
appears to me thath even the Committee he would not
acte results than he has now stated.
Perhaps, therefore, lion. and Learned Gentleman will,
ou consideration, edtisfied with the accurate and able
statement he has gutted to the House, and not press his
motion for a Committ The wine duties must necessarily'
engage the attention a one in considering the collection
of the revenue of thetntry ; but, at the same time, it
appears to me that theire many articles which possess
superior claim to conittion at the hands of the Chan-
cellor of the Excheq than the duties on wine.—
(Hear, hear.) Undoubti it would be very possible to
deal with the duties one We might diminish duties,
and not at the same timjure revenue • but it would be
necessary to proceed witlution. At the same time, I
must repeat my opinion Of import , duties are to be di-
minished, there are manycles which have very superior
claims over the differelvines imported into this
country.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON shat if the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of thrchequer was not now able
to answer the question wl, he (Lord Palmerston) was
about to put to him in conon with something which
had fallen from the Hon.tan'arned .Member who had in-
troduced the motion, he woterhaps furnish the required
information on a future day. 1 Hon. and Learned Friend
(Mr. Anstey) had adverted a great abuse practised at
the Oporto Wine Company ilerence to the wine trade
between Portugal and this cry. Her Majesty's late
Government had had represenns made to them that the
regulations established by the ugues Government with
regard to the Oporto Wine Cony, and the practices of
tro nga at
r representations
eaenniasitenatieldbt iji
that company, were inconsistenth the stipulations of the
treaty of 1842. It was the on of that Government
that these representations were founded, and that im-
pediments and restrictions were Ped upon the exporta-
tion of wine from Portugal, an its importation to
onweanegfisttt::
ira:
itact4ahtdehe
time t
o article
tah te
whicho
Govern-
mentf
h theo
treaty.th i this
o country,
PortugalS
established between
(Lord Palmerston) ceased to be SerY of State for Fo-
rueliegntwAoffaiorvs,earnnmuenndtesrstt
eneral election had
taken place in Portugal, the Portug Government would
remedy the abuse cornpliined of - thiller by some altera-
ti nieby the executive Government, ci
some new law to
be proposed to the Cortex. the practio the Oporto Com-
pany should be placed in harmony wit regulations of the
treaty to which he had referred. Ile`?ound to say that
the Cloyerniuelit of Portugal not only Ittgil that the re-

f~ ~y~

gulations complained of were at variance with the stipula-
t►ons of the treaty, but Rated their willingness to make the
two harmonize. He should be glad to hear what was the
state of tho communications between the two Governments
on this subject at the present moment, and whether the Por-
tuguese Government had taken any steps towards redeeming
the pledge they had given?
Mr. HENLEY said that communications on this subject
were at this moment being carried on between the Govern-
ment of this country and that of Portugal; that her Ma-
jesty's. Ministers fully appreciated the importance of the
question, and that no pains should be spared to bring it to a
satisfactory conclusion.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. ANSTEY said he felt obliged to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer for his courtesy, and would so modify his
motion that it should simply be for a " Committee to
inquire into the revenue at present derived from wine
duties."
The motion, in its altered shape, was then agreed to.
THE BALLOT.

Mr. H. BERKELEY then rose to bring forward his mo•
Lion in reference to the ballot. He said that they had before
them the prospect of an immediate general election.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not know whether his Hon. Friends cheered
for joy ; at all events, it was a prospect full in their view,
and with that election all the glaring faults of their electoral
system would be brought into full play. The electors would
be soon exposed to the realities of those evils which he had
been endeavouring for several years, though feebly, to por-
tray. He asked the House for permission to bring in a Bill
with a view to alleviate those evils. They had last year a
great influx of foreigners from every part of the globe visit-
ing this country, and they found us a quiet steady people
who were very much attached to order. Let the same visit-
ors but come here in a few months hence and they would find
us in the midst of the most admired disorder. They would
find us engaged in a kind of electoral saturnalia, and
when they witnessed the riot, drunkenness, and debau-
chery that would then exist-. that tyrannical intimida-
tion that takes place on such occasions, they might be
induced to fancy that they had got amongst a nation of
madmen. If ever an election bid fair to be marked with
violence, the election- that was about to take place would
have that attribute. A rich and powerful party, after a
lapse of several years, had just obtained power—ihey have
just raised the honied bowl to their lips, and it depended
upon the general election to determine whether they shall
drain it to the dregs, or they shall be obliged to hand
it over to, others. A fearful straggle will, no doubt, take
place, and already the note of preparation has gone forth—
already crowds of low attorneys have crept from the police
and bankruptcy courts (where they have been hitherto
engaged wringing their fees from the hands of poverty and
vice), to become electioneering agents in the ranks of the
wealthy and the noble. What was the nature of their
agency? It was a certain inquiry into the lives of the
electors, in order to find out their misfortunes and liabilities;
and the develish ingenuity with which they create screws
from electors a dishonest and unwilling vote
was almost beyona if such was the agency, what
was the attorney? Their trade was to elector's con-
science—their means, the elector's misery— their em-
ployers, the HouSe of Lords—the result, the House of Corn-
mons. —(Hear, hear.) If any persons were bold enough to
deny that potition, and to take up the cudgels in such a
quarrel, he would refer them to their own knowledge of the
whole community ; and beyond that he would refer them to
that excellent little work of Mr. Dod, in which they would
find that there were 96 borough Members of Parliament
elected through the direct intervention Peers —(Hear, hear.)
He would refer them also to their own Committees, and to
their own canvassing-books used at their own elections. And
if they wanted further evidence, he would refer them to the
statements which were made in 1842, when he had the ho-
nour of seconding the motion of Mr. Ward—statements en-
tailing the kind of screws that were used at elections,
and quoted from books of candidates in the different
counties and boroughs. He had before him evidence in
support of those statements. He had the analysis of the
evidence that was taken before the Committee that sat in
1835 to inquire into the malversation of the franchise. It
was not the aristocracy alone that were the guilty parties,
but the democracy was to the full as tyrannical as the aris-
tocracy ; and between the two the electoral interest was
condemned to much suffering. He would only quote one
case from that book—that of a man who was dear to their
Protectionist hearts. It was the case of a regular pet
Tory, and withal that of a very honest man, placed
under the bar •of proscription. James Gilbert, in his
examination, stated that he resided in Birmingham, and
was a licensed victualler and wine•merchant, who took
an active part in the election of 1831 for Birmingham.
He said that he canvassed for Richard Spooner, Esq.,
that there was an extensive system of intimidation
practised, by which the votes of the electors were in-
fluenced. He said he was a partisan on the Tory side
—that he had always taken a part in those elections
for a period of 40 years—that he had known instances
within his own knowledge of votes being influenced at
the previous election, and he particularly mentioned three
strong cases. On being asked respecting political unions,
he said he thought that such unions contributed greatly
to the promotion of a system of exclusive dealing, and
that if it were not for such unions Richard Spooner would
never have had a seat in this House. To the question whe-
ther he did not think that many men as strong partisans as
himself would not rather have a system of secret voting, he
said he could not say; he had heard their wives express such
an opinion often; but a good Tory never flinches.—
(Laughter.) He was then asked whether he thought a good
Whig ever flinched. He said he could not tell, for he never
kept company with such gentry.—(Loud laughter.) He
then went on to say that a Tory never preaches about reform,
for it was no good for them to do so; but he preaches gene-
rally that the Church was in danger.—(Renewed laughter. )
The witness, though most reluctant to speak in favour of the
ballot, which he said would not be kept secret, said he be-
lieved it would be a good thing to many if their votes were
unknown. He himself would never advocate it, because he
said he was brought up a Tory, and would rather go to the
workhouse than change his politics. He further stated, that
if they had a system established at that election by which
nobody could know how the electors voted, Mr. Spooner
would have been at once returned; but, as the case was
otherwise, many persons voted against their own opinions.
In conclusion, the witness said that it was certainly very
Lard that an honest man should be injured for conscien-
tiously exercising his privilege. He (Mr. Berkeley) sub-
mitted that that was a tolerably fair account of Birming-
ham, though given nearly twenty years ago. The Right
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, in
the recent debate upon national representation, that " cor-
ruption at elections could net be stopped by law; it must
be done by elevating the tone of the community." It struck
him (Mr. Berkeley) that this was rather a novel position
for the Right Hon. Gentleman to take up, and it would ap-
pear that the Noble Lord the Member for London, and those
Hon. Gentlemen who were endeavouring to legislate against
bribery, have been proceeding in the wrong direction.
Why do they pass those sessional orders against the inter-
ference of Peers at elections if no legislation was to take
place on the subject ? Why should they pass the stringent
Bribery Bill—or why should they occupy themselves in
the futile endeavour to stop the evil it the statement.
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, that they were all wrong, was correct? But
how were they to elevate the tone of the community ? His
Hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham had told them
that out of every election at Birmingham there were 1,000
electors who dared hot go to the poll under their present
system. He asked them, in addition to those electors, to
consider how many refused to be on the registry. They
could then form some opinion as to the frightful curtailment
of the franchise which takes place under this system. At
the last election for Bath 430 electors had stated that they.
dared not go to the -poll, for if they did they should shut
up shop. He now asked the Right. Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell them how the tone of the
community was to be elevated. Now it struck him (Mr.
Berkeley) that the only mode by which this was to be done
was by education. But then they saw men whose education
was superior to the same class in any part of the world—
noblemen and gentlemen—lending themselves to depress the
tone of the community by the practices they encouraged at
elections. He said that this talk about elevating the tone
of the community in the face of such difficulties was a mere
farce; and they could not be surprised if these
honest and rough-handed men would reply to them in the
language of Lord Duberly, " fine words butter no parsnips."
He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would be able to
show the advantages of an elevated tone in the community
to those noblemen who at the last South Nottingham elec-
tion hunted the unfortunate electors out of haystacks, and
afterwards sent them like caged rats to the poll. Why, in-
stead of fixing their attention upon isolated places like St.
Alban's, he might go through the alphabet of boroughs and
towns in which there were similar practices resorted to. He
might quote Bridport, Bristol, Birmingham, Coventry, Car-
low, Cashel, Clonmol, Denbigh, Exeter, Gloucester, Here-
ford, Halifax, Leicester, Leominster, Lyme Regis. \Vestmin-
ster, Youghal. There were also the counties of Cheshire,
Clare, Devon, Denbighshire, Essex, Kerry, Limerick, Water-
ford, Wexford, &c. He should like to know how they were
to improve the electoral system by elevating the tone of
the community in connexion with the course they had re-
cently pursued in reference to Sudbury, St. Alban's, the
Scotch burghs, Harwich, and Gloucester? Why, was it
not a patent fact that this system of demoralization was en-
couraged by the best educated men of the land? He had
now to deal with the speech of his valued Friend the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Perth (Mr. Fox Maule.)
He might have passed him over but that he was patted on
the back by the greet leviathan of the press, who quietly
embalmed him his speech in a leading article. His Right
Hon. Friend gave two reasons for his conduct in reference
to the ballot—the one was for the vote he had given in
favour of it; the other for the part he took against it. The
reason he gave for voting for the ballot was this—that,
although he thought thehallot a bad measure, yet, inasmuch
as there were some ficticious votes in Perth, which he was
unsuccesful in his endeavours to get rid of, he voted for the
ballot by way of a cure. Now that was an extraordinary
mode of legislation. The Right Hon. Gentleman, it
appears, was prepared to give what he considered a
miserably bad measure lc Great Britain and Ireland, in order
to cure a little rascality in Perth. The Right Hon.
Gentleman stated his reasons for voting against the ballot
to be these—that •it had never been the means
of establishing liberty and protecting the freedom
of the press or of defending and maintaining the law.
Now he (Mr. Berkeley) admitted that the ballot did none
of aim things; all it did was to enable the elector to give
an unbiassed, unfettered vote. He believed that such a
ballot-box as they had in the Carlton and Reform Clnb
Houses could secure such a result. The Right
Honourable Gentleman was but raising shadows
for the purpose of knocking them down. Louis
underNthaos l same
eaball
deputies, of a
es,
Napoleon was
most
thosen secret
andP rseosliidde n t
description. o f France
who were considered by some persons
as martyrs, were also elected by the ballot. He claimed,
pn
then, the working of the ballot in France under the late con-
stitution as an example highly in favour of the institution.—
(Ironical cheers) He said that the elections in France were
conducted with admirable order, and that they formed a
strong contrast to the riots and disorder which characterised
the elections in this country. Under the French ballot men
of talent, good conduct, and respectability were elected.
Belgium also afforded a brilliant instance of the working of
the ballot.. In the Chambers there, the aristocracy of birth,
of talent, respectability, and landed. property were strongly
represented. In America, too, the working of the ballot
was perfectly satisfactory.—(ob, oh.) The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with that extra-
ordinary ability and ingenuity which marked all his speeches,
seized upon the facts of a disturbance having taken place
in New York during an election, and quoted a letter
fer the purpose of showing that open bribery and in-
timidation had been there practised—that assaults
were committed by the electors, and the ballot-box, which
he said was the cause of all this, was smashed to pieces. The
Right Hon. Gentleman, with extreme plausibility, lays this
all to the fault of the ballot. Now, having resided for six
years in America, he (Mr. Berkeley) could only say that be
never saw -an election conducted there except with the
greatest order and tranquillity, and in speaking to Americans
he had always heard them hold this language—" We
scarcely want the ballot here, because there is an absence of
bribery and intimidation. But you want it in England, be-
cause you have the law of primogeniture, and the law of
entail, whereby property is accumulated and lodged in the
hands of a few persons, consequently the tyranny. of certain
classes IS felt," . He wptild ask how the Btattniont of the