The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-10 00:00:00

TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY lO, 1852.

(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord has on several occasions
dilated on the wisdom of settling great questions in
: m eleents of comparative calm and tranquillity. I think, as
a general principle, that is a wise course; but care should
be team, in sealing with what may require alteration in the
commonwealth, to introdube nothing that is tabulated to
excite the passions of great masses of the canrounitv.—
! ( Hear, hear.) It is in the moment of tranquillity, when
passions arc not excited and interests are tranquil, that
you should come forward and deal with those interests; but
s
you are bound to deal with them in such a manner at will not
ea r fi.unnecessarily provoke discussion, so that the settlement may
be will
not
ha y
)nal,so for that
as atislnootana
now
wm
ftoorta
ben used in
human affairs—but such a one as is calculated to be perma-
nent.—(Hear.opinion, I cannot say that I think the measure brought for-
ward by the Noble Lord a very
statesmanlike measure. The
Noble Lord says that the 101. householders aro in a certain
sense to be disfranchised, and that we are to have 51.
householders on the register. What is the great object of
the 51. franchise? -That you should admit the werkiug
classes to the exercise of the suffrage. I have always been
the advocate of an industrial suffrage; but I am not satin-
tied that this 51. franchise will act in that way. lam net to
be persuaded that there was no measure better fitted for
this purpose, no arrangement more apposite and more
calculated to complete this end, than merely lowering
the rating of the rent on which the suffrage de-
pends.—(Hear, hear.) I have here a paper moved for some
years ago by the Hon. Member for Marylebone, which con-
tains a list of the boroughs, with their populations and con- '
stituencies, in England. I was anxious to find out the sixty-
seven boroughs, with which the Noble Lord means to deal in
this Bill, and I commenced with the list before me. I began
with Caine; went through what I supposed must be the
sixty-seven boroughs, assuming from the smallness of the
constituencies that those I selected must be the sixty-seven
places which the Noble Lord wishes to disturb. Then,
having exhausted the sixty-seven boroughs, I proceeded
through the list, taking those that, from the number of their
constituencies, I presumed must be exempted from the ope-
ration of the Noble Lord's Bill—those above 500. The first
borough I found on the exempted list was St. Albans.—
(Laughter.) I only mention this to show that in settling
this question we have a great many details to consider. The
merit of a measure like the present depends very much on
its details, and that is the reason why, when a Minister
makes a proposition of this nature, and is not prepared to
lay his Bill on the table—a very strange occurrence cer-
tainly—l think the country have a right to expect that
ample time will be given to consider those details.—
(Hear, hear.) I have thus expressed what I really feel
.on the matter. I feel, so far as the two tests I have
referred to go, that I am not prepared on those grounds to
oppose the. Bill of the Noble Lord. Upon the greater ground
I reserve my opinion. I have great hesitation as to the
propriety of introducing this measure at all. I have great
doubts whether it is a measure deep enough and compre-
hensive enough to deal with a question the Minister has
himself voluntarily raised.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord
ought well to consider that it is of the utmost importance
that questions of this kind should be very maturely consi-
dered before they are decided upon—that it is of the greatest
importance that all measures for the adjustment and ar-
rangement of the suffrage should be of a permanent cha-
racter. The Noble Lord is the last Minister who ought to
doubt the correctness of that principle. I say very frankly
to the Noble Lord that I do not think it is to the credit of
this country, of this House, or of himself as a statesman,
that every year he should alter the franchise of Ireland.—
(Hear, and laughter.) I think if the Noble Lord had only
pondered on those subjects a little longer he would have
hardly been in the singular position of having brought for-
ward a Reform Bill only twelve months ago for the kingdom
of Ireland, and now confessing that that measure is perfectly
inadequate to its objects.—(Hear, hear.) I hope it is not
ominous of the measure the Noble Lord is now bringing
forward. I think it will be just as well if gentlemen
on the other side of the House, who exert
themselves to the utmost to get a measure brought
forward, should thoroughly consider what that measure is.
Gentlemen opposite have had experience on this subject.
They received with enthusiasm the Bill of 1832. They de-
nounced everybody who opposed it, and expected that it
would in every respect answer the purpose. But they have
lived to find out their mistake, and they should so far profit
from the past, and receive—l will not say with suspicion,
but without passion—the present measure of the Minister.
—(Hear, hear.) Let them remember we are at the com-
mencement of the session, and that we have much to do
with other measures.—(Hear, hear.) Let not Government
allow Parliamentary Reform to divert their attention from
other reforms.—(Hear, hear..) Depend upon it that what-
ever you give with regard to the extension of the franchise,
the great body of the people will not be satisfied if the
greater part or the session is occupied with Parliamentary
reform.—(Hear, hear.) The people out of doors wish to
see the whole question of our colonial government entered
into. They wish to see the principles on which our system
of taxation is established inquired into. The people out of
doors 'have some anxiety to know whether there will be
legal reform or not.—(Hear, hear.) These questions will
require considerable attention and very laborious amend-
ment of details, and these are reasons why we should not
approach this subject, thrown into our hands so early in the
session. We should try to ascertain what the time requires,
think carefully whether this change be required by the
people, and whether the proposition of the Government is
one of that nature that is calculated to satisfy the country
when obtained.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY had listened, as he always did, with the
deepest attention to the speech ,of the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down, and he must confess he was unable to
discover whether he was to be numbered among the sup-
porters or the opponents of the Bill. From some previous
observations it might be implied that he would have been
very glad if an extension of the suffrage had been submitted
by the Government; and now,. when an outline of the pro-
posed measure had been given by his Noble Friend, he stated
that to the principle laid dowel by his Noble Friend he did
not see any objection. Then he asked for a month's delay,
in order that the minute details of the Bill might be consi-
dered by the country and the Rouse. Now, the details of
the measure were questions eat entially for the Committee—
such, for example, as whether cane borough should be joined
with another, or not. He hope d, therefore, the House would
not consent to the delay proposed by the Honourable
Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) ;He agreed with him that
other subjects of great importance would come under the
attention of Paaliament ; and the way to get them before
Parliament would be to home no delay in proceeding
with the Bill now before the House.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Gentleman said it was a ,rery unusual occurrence not to
lay a Bill before the House on the night on which leave was
given to bring it in; but he believed he was wholly mistaken
as to the precedents in this matter. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Stamford naked a question as to the day
fixed for the second reading; and his Noble Friend in reply
gave a full fortnight, not between the present time and the
second reading, but from the ti me when the Bill would be in
their hands. Such a period h a did not think at all unrea-
sonable. The Hon. Gentlem an hinted something about
manoeuvres and tricks with reference to the arrangements
under the Bill, and founded that suspicion on what he said
had notoriously taken place with the Reform Bill of 1832.
What the circumstances were Ito which the lien. Gentleman
referred he knew not ; but, if any steps were taken by Minis-
ters that could be called in question, ample opportunities
would be given of stating obj ections when they considered
the details of the measure.—(,Hear, hear.) 'What he asked
was, that if there were objections to the Bill they should be
manfully stated by its oppone ats, and that there should be
no attempts to defeat the mea lure by postponing it till a late
period of the session.—(Hear,. hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
seemed to speak as if the extension of the franchise to 5/.
would have the effect of disfrt inchising 101. householders.
Mr. DISRAELI—I did not: say so.
Sir G. GREY understood the Hon. Member to say so, but
of course if he disclaimed the statement he would make no
remarks upon the subject. T fie Hon. Gentleman referred to
St. Albans, and read from an old return, which did not ap-
ply to the present state of the constituency of that borough.
He believed, however, that the present state of the consti-
tuency of St. Albans fell within the number which his
Noble Friend had stated as the point within which he pro-
posed boroughs to be dealt with.—(Hear, hear.) In conclu-
sion, he hoped the House would not grant the delay asked
for by the lion. Gentleman.--(Hear, hear.)
Sir B. HALL said, in previous sessions the Government
bad been charged with not bringing forward a measure of
reform, and now the Gentlemen opposite came forward and
said the Noble Lord was too hasty in his proposal, and was
about to cause unnecessary e:scitement among the people.
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. lallember for Buckinghamshire
called upon the Noble Lord to postpone the Bill for an inde-
finite time—one of the most in onstrous propositions he ever
heard.—(Hear.) As the Right Hon. Gentleman had shown,
the material points to be considered were matters of detail,
and they would naturally fall, to be considered in Commit-
tee. The Hon. Gentleman opposite said the Bill ought to
have been laid on the table of the House. The Hon. Gen-
tleman was not a Member of the House when the first Re-
form Bill was introduced ; but he could tell him that his
Noble. Friend was now acting in the same way as he then
did. On the 10th of March leave was given to bring in the
first Reform Bill, and it was read a first time on the 14th of
March.—(Hear.) That was the very course now proposed
to be taken. Then, when was it read a second time? It
Wise a measure of much greater importance than the pre-
sent, and yet only seven days after that Bill was brought
into the House the Noble Lord moved that it be read a se-
cond time.—(Hear.) And now, when they had been calling
for reform for years, the Hon. Gentleman opposite got up
and asked that it should be postponed for a whole month !
—(llear.) The Hon. Gentleman had made use of strong
language with reference to the boundaries of boroughs. The
Hon. Gentleman talked of manceuvres and proceedings
having taken -place in fixing the boundaries in 1.32, but
who was the principal party 'to those manoeuvres ? Lord
Stanley, of whom the Hon. G netleman was now a follower.
That Noble Lord was one of the principal parties concerned
in the Reform Bill ; he took a most active part as to the
boundaries of the boroughs ; and now the Hon. Gentleman
taunted the Noble Lord at the head of the Government withvt
having used discreditable manoeuvres h't and proceedings ttho
regard to them.—(Hear.) Tf to Hon. Gentleman oug
recollect with whom he was associated before he cast suchh.
reflections upon his Noble Friend.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
But when he talked of this not being a full and comprehen-
sive measure, he (Sir B. Hall) ?greed with him. It was not so
in his sense, nor perhaps in that of the lion. Gentleman,
.
be-
cause he thought the Hon. Gentleman
had bee urn in avo
A laugh.) He
the ballot and triennial Pariliaments.—(
wished those questions had been. introduced into it. It would
bat he
have made it much fuller and more comprehensav
ort of the
doubted whether it would have now had the supp
however,
Gentleman opposite.—(:"clear.) He must,e Government
congratulate his Noble Friend at the heado 1830 and 1831
on one sign of the times : - that -whereas
in f th
and he was a Member of the House at that time—every
embered, inched, a
stage of the Bill was foughte—he
seren in the morning,
division of the House at a quarter past
ther—now there was
Hon and they had 16 or 17 divisions altege
Gentlemen opposite
to be no division. —( Hear.)
n
dared not in the face of their constituentswhen the Hon. vote against this
Bill being introduced.—(Hear.)
.And
with for
Gentle-
man taunted the Liberal Refer
niers
dvote against it bvotingecausethis it
Bill, did he suppose they "avou
l ish ed for? They meant to do
did not give them all they w
wand
take all they could get and
nothing of the sort; they would take all they could get amid
move amendments and try and
get more.—(Hear, hear, and
move amendments and
witha the' Noble Lord in one respect,
laughter.) He agreed
that it would be extremely wrong to continue the very small
whichers he had moved for, and
boroughs. Some pa
l) be before the House
, in a day or
which, he believed, would
eaaections on that point. Probably
two, would illustrate his J
teed to the Bill, and if
there would be a schedule
atta
in the chedul beginningthere
with the
were the first borough e
and he would
letter A should be Arundel,then give Hon.
opposite the oppor atnity of
Gentlemen moving that that
send
town should no longer d Members to Parliament.
TT Member suggeste that Abingdon
(Somewhether it came before
Arundel.) We"'ce I
mendh
wereAbingdon or Arundel, he
would give Hon. —ent emn e same opportunity.—(Hear.)
For his own part, he f that the scheme of the Noble
Lord, in congregating together towns, would place the coun-
ty constituencies more in the hands of the landlords, and
giv
give the landlords more power over their tenants than at pre-
sent; and they might rely on it that it would come to that
which Earl Grey spoke of in the House of Lords,—they must
have the ballot to protect the i?eapje._(Hear.) He thought
they ought to have a Reform Bill based on the principle of
the former one—of enfranchimement and disfranchisement,

and when they had miserable little boroughs like those re-
ferred to by his Hon. Friend the I.\lecalyT for Inverness, they
ought to be disfranchised. The llon. Gentleman had taken
very good care to show up sortie of the boroughs repre-
sented b 3 Hon. Ciente:men on his (Sir B. llall's)'Side of the
House. Bat were there ware represented by Hon. Gentlemen
opposite? Were there not Nyilion, Chris'cturch,
Buckingham, Helstone, Huntingdon, and Stamford? He'
tiro:iglu this state of things was disgraceful to the countrN
( Hear, hear)---ard that the first principle of the Ilec;rni
Bill ought to be to disfranchise those small boroughs, and
then to add protection to the voters. lie could nut quite
understand why the county constituencies should be put on a
different footing from those of the boroughs—(Hear)—why in
a borough there should be a 10/. franchise and a 21. franchise,
and yet in counties there should only be a 20/. franchise?
Was-it a compliment to the voters in towns, to show they
were so much more intelligent and enlightened, that a man
who had a property to the extent of a year was qualified
to vote, while a farmer who rented property of less than 201. a
year was not qualified to vote? But there was a greater
anomaly than that. Was the Irish farmer so much more en-
lightened a character than the English farmer? And why
was the former, with a 12/. holding, to have a vote, when
the farmer in this country could only have it for a 201. hold-
ing?—(Hear, hear.) He thought there should be the same
qualification in towns as in counties.--(Hear, hear.) It
might be said that that would give more influence to the
landlords; bur, as he had said before, then give the people
the ballot.—(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House
with any details, but would thank the Noble Lord for bring-
ing in the Bill, and hoped he would not admit of any delay ;
and, when the Hon. Gentleman opposite spoke of the people
being anxious for law reform, for an inquiry into the colo-
nial system and the taxation of the country, he entirely
agreed with him, but would suggest whether the best
way
of shortening the business of the House would
not
be by making their speeches as short as they
could, and then they would have plenty of time to pro-
ceed with the great questions to which the Hon. Gentleman
had referred.

After a few words from Lord NEWPORT, which were not
heard distinctly in the gallery,
Lord D. STUART said that out of doors this measure
would not be regarded by the people as sufficiently full
and
comprehensive. The boroughmongers—the proprietors of
such boroughs as Gatton and Old Sarum—were trembling,
lest they should be deprived of that unrighteous power and
influence which they had held so long, and which they still
exercised for corrupt purposes, and therefore they had
come down in large numbers to that House to defend their
boroughs.—(Hear, hear.) He could not say that this mea-
sure would give to the country great satisfaction. It would
not come up to the wishes and desires of the people at large.
—(Hear.) It certainly did not satisfy him or agree with his
notions ; for, in the first place, it was not based on any great
principle.—(Hear.) He admitted it would extend the
franchise, and so tar would be of benefit, but it was to be an
extension only from 101. to 51., drawing an arbitrary line
and based upon no principle. The Noble Lord had repu-
diated the doctrine of the finality of the Reform Bill by
bringing in this new measure of reform, and he must have
been perfectly conscious that this could not be a final mea-
sure.—( Hear.) He believed it could only be considered as
an instalment. As to the change the Noble Lord proposed
to introduce into the constituencies, he thought it would be
productive of very small advantage, and would not give the
people a true and efficient representation. He feared that
those in whose hands the Noble Lord proposed to place the
franchise were not likely to be free agents, and that
therefore it would only be giving additional power to the
landlords. He thought that for a full representation of the
people there must be a much larger extension of the fran-
chise) than the Noble Lord proposed, and that there could be
none unless the people were efficiently protected in the ex-
ercise of their rights.—(Hear, hear.) And in speaking of
the rights of the people he could not help noticing an ex-
pression of the Noble Lord, used by him early in his speech.
The Noble Lord said he thought it was time to extend the
franchise as a reward to the people. He did not think that
was a proper and statesmanlike view of the subject. If it
was for the advantage of the country or of its inhabitants
that they should have the suffrage they ought to have it for
great political reasons; but if it was not for the advantage
of the country then it ought to be withheld. The Noble
Lord appeared not to he satisfied with the small boroughs
as they now existed; but he (Lord D. Stuart) had great
doubt of the propriety of the course pursued by the Noble
Lord with respect to them. He would warn the House not
to suppose, when a borough was either so corrupt or a no-
minee borough in the hands of some great proprietor, that
adding to it some neighbouring town or towns would make it
necessarily an open and a free borough. He thought that in
some instances the contrary would be the case. He woul
refer to one—the borough of Arundel, which he had once the
honour of representing. In the Reform Bin it was proposed
to add to that borough the neighbouring port cf -Little-
hampton. The Noble Lord would recollect what had oc-
curred. A great objection was made to the proposed
arrangement by the inhabit ants of Arundel. The proposal
was not by any means ono of the discreditable tricks and
contrivances alluded to by. the Hon. Member for Bucking-
hamshire, by which it was attempted to place influence in
the hands of the partizans of the Noble Lord at the head (.1
the Government. It. was said that the intention was to con-
solidate the power of the great proprietor in the neighbour-
hood—the Duke of Norfolk ; but that proposal was
resisted by the inhabitants of Arundel, because they

thought it would make Arundel a complete nominee
borough in the hands of the Duke, inasmuch as he
held very considerable property in the town of Arundel, but
had not complete power over it, whilst the whole town of
Littlehampton belonged to him, and the borough therefore
would have been entirely in his power. He was afraid such
things would happen when two or three small towns were
taken together, and therefore he could not think that
such a plan would have the effect of giving to the
people the full and free representation they ought to have.
The Noble Lord had omitted to mention one matter which
out of doors was considered of great importance—the short-
ening of the duration of Parliament, a proceeding which was
altogether essential to the rendering the representation of
the people what it ought to be, by rendering the representa-
tives earlier responsible to the people. He would repeat
that he regarded this measure as far from calculated to
satisfy the just expectations of the country. But, inasmuch
as it was a step in the right direction, as it destroyed for
ever the doctrine of finality, as it recognised that some-
thing ought to be done for the improvement of the repre-
sentation, he was ready to accept it as an instalment, with
the full purpose in his own mind to obtain still more so
soon as practicable• He trusted that the Noble Lord would
not listen to the insidious suggestions made to him for delay-
ing the measure, on the part of men who, had he taken a
different course, would themselves have been the first to re-
proach him with dilatoriness, and with a want of earnestness
of purpose—(Hear, hear)—and he trusted, at the same time,
that those who supported the Bill would also apply their
efforts to make it more practically efficient.
Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL would not, on this occa-
sion, enter into the general character of the measure; but,
as an Irish representative and a Roman Catholic, he begged
to express his grateful thanks to the Noble Lord for having
done away with the present most insulting system of oaths
a relief which would be warmly appreciated in Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) He trusted the Noble Lord would carry the
new principle beyond the walls of Parliament. He begged
to ask the Noble Lord whether there would be a separate Bill
for Ireland ?

Lord J. RUSSELL said that a separate Bill for Irelaud
would be brought forward on Friday.
After a few words from Captain HARRIS,
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
The House adjourned at Half .past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 9.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Ealing,
Praying for the enfranchisement of copyhold tenure.
BRIBERY OATHS.

Lord BROUGHAM, seeing his Noble Friend the Presi-
dent of the Council, whose recent indisposition he greatly
lamented, once more in his place, would take the liberty of
putting a question to him. The Noble and Learned Lord,
who spoke in a tone of voice very indistinctly heard in the
gallery, then proceeded to give a summary of the oaths
which had recently been proposed by himself and others for
the prevention of bribery at elections. They were all in one
point or another defective; but much of the evil had been
cured by the Evidence Bill, which he had himself introduced
into the statute-book ; for now both the sitting Member and
the unsuccessful candidate for a seat were both liable to be
examined on oath, subject, no doubt, to their refusal to an-
swer any question which might criminate themselves, and to
the consequences criminatory of themselves which might
result from their silence. Unquestionably, however, some-
thing more than the Evidence Bill was wanted to render
the law for the prevention of bribery perfect. He, there-
fore, hoped that her Majesty's Ministers would take the
subject under their consideration, as many instances
had occurred of late which confirmed rather than created
the existence of great bribery at elections. He had a strong
notion that a bill might now easily be produced which, with
the Evidence Bill, would put a stop to these corrupt Prrte
tices. The true course to be taken in order to ellatitur
bribery would be to exact from every Member of Pta,r y
hPeimnt.,
on his taking his seat, a declaration that he had nuor b
promised
self or his agents, directly or indirectly, giyal
used or pro-
money or any other valuable thing to, or h
miser! to use any influence to procure a place or pension for,
and that he was
any voter who had voted at his election,isoide on his behalf
wholly ignorant of any gift or prom
wholly dis-
hy any such person to such voter, and that he h
believed that any such thing had been done on his behalt';
and furthermore to bind himself by a solemn promise not to
pay any one thing, or to fulfil any one promise, or to do
eha f . payment,
he
any-
thinge whatsoever to carry into execution theor
the
succeerrdd
promise, or engagement of his agents in his b
same declaration should also be exacted frol
e be
unsuccess-
ful candidate at the election for the seat, in
in ousting the sitting Member. That was a declaration
which he thought that no man would undertake to °ln In
unless he were convinced that no illegal practices had been
committed at his • election. The Noble and Learned Lord
concluded without asking any question, if we heard him
correctly.
The BLarquis of LANSDOWNE said that it would give
him the highest satisfaction it any effectuul remedy could be
provided for the corruption now prevalent at elections, for
certainly- nothing effectual had yet been done. lie had also
high satisfaction in informing his Noble and Learned Friend
that the subject had already engaged the attention of her
Majesty 'k3 Government; and a notice upon it had either been
given already, or would be given that very night, in the
other Rouse of Parliament. here was a fixed determina-
tion on the part of her Majesty's Government to bring these
corrupt and demoralizing practices to a speedy end.
Lord BROUGHAM had great satisfaction in hearing that
a notice of motion on this subject had either been given
already or would be given that 'night by her Majesty's Go-
vename nt. Had he known of that notice he would not have
Said out word on this subject to their Lordships. no
hoped and trusted that there was sufficient virtue in the
other House of Porliament not to evade a
sduty on this
point.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
In reply to a request from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH postponed till Monday,
next the questions which he had intended to ask on this sub-
ject on Tuesday (this day).
STATE OF IRELAND.
The Earl of RODEN gave notice that he would, to-mor-
row, put a question to the Government with reference to
the melancholy state of the disturbed districts in the north
of Ireland. If the answer Which he might receive should
prove unsatisfactory, he should feel it his duty to bring the
state of that part of the country under their Lordships' con-
sideration.
REFORM OF THE COMMON L&W.
The LORD CHANCELLOR wished to move the second
reading of the Common Law Procedure Bill. This was one
of the Bills which bad been mentioned in her Majesty's
Speech, and was founded on the recommendation of the Com-
missioners, who bad well considered the reforms which
might be introduced into the procedure of the conamon law.
Their. Lordships were, doubtless, aware of the distinctions
which existed between that branch of the law by which
rights were determined, and that branch which regulated
the course of procedure by which those rights were pre-
sented for litigation. The
ter branch of the law, and it was addressed to remedy those present Bill belonged to the pre-
sented
and deficiences which were nerany and with hose
s-
tice complained of. The present
systemge of procedure ori-
ginated ill a remote period. It was now InAPPrOPriate tO,

and inconsistent with the changes of the time ii
lived, and it produced conscquencett precVa
site of those which its origin .:I frame:, interet
pally, there was no such thing as written pleadio
tiiu"s, but a system of oral pleading then e:
party Lrou,.:slit :An action he cam, into cowl-.
case, and then the defendant's counsel either r
iectic.n in point of form, or disputed th;
merits. The objection, if it were merZt.
sees decided instantly, and if the decision
the plaintiff, application to amend was
diately, and after such amendment was made the dere..
was called upon to answer the case upon its merits. When
the defendant had pleaded to the action and the objection of
the plaintiff's counsel to that plea, if any were made, had
been taken down by the officer of the court, the pleadings
were put in a proper shape, and the issue which the jury
had to decide upon when the day of trial came was arranged.
In later times, when the legal basiness had so increased, it
was found impossible any longer to have a form of oral
pleading. The declaration accordingly was prepared in
writing, and the defendant had time given him to answer
the allegations which it contained. It bad frequently hap-
pened that when the objections to a declaration were of a
mere formal nature, that those objections were not argued
and
determined upon for six or twelve months after the
declaration had been, filed. That was one of the great
objections to the present system of procedure, for it fre-
quently happened that a mere frivolous objection would
delay applied
cause considerable delay. The observation with regard
to
in equally
a cause.t('the ulterior
pro-
ceedingsthe which
were
taken Their Lord-
ships would perceive how differently •
mere formal objec-
tions were dealt with in times past to what they
were at present. In very early times all cases were
tried in Westminster Hall, but in the.r
of Henry I. a
took statute was passed by which a circuit t eign
H
place once a year;
and in the reign of Edward 111. the statute was passed which
had reference to the sittings at Nisi P • rins, and the assizes
were directed to be held twice a year by that statute. Still,
in form, the case was apparently tried in Westminster, be-
cause the jury who belonged to the county in which the
action was to be tried were summoned as if to attend in
Westminster Hall; but they did not attend, and were only
actually summoned when the judge went the circuit. In
the year 1846 there had been 146,000 writs issued; 2 per
cent. of the whole were tried, 5 per cent. went as far as the
declaration, and 7 per cent. never reached even that stage;
so that in one-half of the cases in which writs were issued
the dispute was settled before the time arrived for entering
an appearance to a declaration. The vast majority of cases
in which writs were issued were for undisputed debts. The
present Bill sought to diminish the expense connected with
the earlier stage of a cause. The present Bill travelled
through every stage of the suit. It provided that when a writ
was issued it should be endorsed, which endorsement should
state how much was claimed for the debt and how much
for costs, thereby giving the defendant notice in an
early part of the proceedings what was the amount the pay-
ment of which he had to object to. If the defendant did
not appear to the action judgment was to be signed upon
the writ without the expense of a declaration, or of an in-
terlocutory judgment, or a final judgment, according to the
nature of the action. By the present state of things the
declaration gave a defendant no material information, and
its abolition in these cases would be no loss, but a great
benefit. The present Bill also did away with technical ob-
jections, which their Lordships were aware were not connected
in any way with the material points in the case. There
were numerous other objections, called special demurrers,
which consisted of objections taken at an earlier stage of
the case. There was a statute which had been passed
which required that technical objections should be stated in
the form of special demurrer, and should be kept separate from
any demurrer which applied to the real merits of the case.
By the present system special demurrers remained for many
months on the paper before they were disposed of. There
were also many steps in the proceeding which did not form
the subject of a special demurrer, and which might not be
noticed until the defendant either moved in arrest of judg-
ment or for a writ of error, and in those cases he could stop
the whole proceedings at the time when the plaintiff thought
that he should get justice done him. The present Bill
would allow no writ of error unless the objection were taken
in an early stage of the cause. It was not to be expected that
a Bill of this extent could be framed so as to be free from all
objections. The motive of its introduction was to remove
much of that odium which belonged to the present system of
the procedure at common law, and he believed it would go
far to secure that object.
Lord LYNDHURST said that no reasonable person could
object to the Bill being read a second time. The Bill was
the result of many months of labour and assiduity on the
part of those who had it in their power to make it as perfect
as possible. The objection he entertained to the measure
related to points of detail, which could be amended in Com-
mittee. There was, however, one question to which he
would wish to have a satisfactory reply. The county courts
had been established for some years. He was told that since
the jurisdiction was extended to 50/. no less than 5,000
causes of between 201. and 50/. had been tried in five months,
being at the rate of 12,000 causes a year, and the decisions
in each case had given satisfaction. Now, he could not
understand why the simple machinery of the county courts
could not be applied to the superior courts of common
law in ordinary cases, where the superior judges could decide
them.

Lord BROUGHAM said he entirely concurred with his
Noble and Learned Friend who had just sat down, that the
proper course to take would be to give the Bill a second read-
ing, and to reserve all matter of detail for the Committee.
He agreed in the eulogium which the Noble Lord who bad
just spoke had passed upon the county courts; but with re-
spect to the question of still further extending their jurisdic-
tion, that was a subject on which he was not prepared to pro-
nounce an opinion.
Lord LYNDHURST said the Noble and Learned Lord had
entirely mistaken his meaning. He had not said that he de-
sired to see the jurisdiction of the county courts extended to
large sums; but what he said was, that he could not under-
stand why the simple machinery of the county courts could
not be applied in the superior courts to the same class of
actions.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM apologised to the Noble and Learned
Lord, but he had understood him to intimate an opinion
that the jurisdiction of the county courts might advan-
tageously be extended to causes of 2001. and 3001. The
present was a period when extensive reforms of the law
were required by the country. He thought those reforms
might be made extensively and with advantage to the
public. He could not express his feelings on the subject
more appropriately than by reading the language of Lord
Denman, who, on being referred to for his opinion on the
law reforms now proposed, replied as follows :—" The present
crisis cannot fail to suggest considerations of the highest im-
portance. There are the appearances of an attempt to esta-
blish order en absolute power, and to teach mankind the les-
son that the will of one may be most safely intrusted with
the interests of all. But if there be any truth in moral
reasoning, or in long experience, all know that without the
basis of law no solid fabric of order can possibly be reared or
any security given for the rights which even the best-minded
man and the best-designed decrees may pretend to confer, It
appears to be the peculiar vocation of England to exhibit to
the nations of the world a steady Government and peaceable,
because contented, people; and that content must not be
looked for, since it cannot and ought not to exist where the
press is ree and the people but moderately enlightened.
whilst a single grievance is wilfully retained after exposure."
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he was not aware of the
course of proceeding in the county courts after the declara-
tion had been filed, but he was certain that any recommenda-
tions or suggestions which might fall from the Noble and
Learned Lord (Lord Lyndhurst) would be received with re-
spect and consideration by the public.
INe
had perused ENGLAND.
Lord SFlsome ,ORRAENIGGFNoR REFUGEESsaid
that
h do-
cuments which had been published, and which .contained
the remonstrances of some foreign Governments against the
manner in which certain refugees had been received in this
country. The first of tthese remonstrances was from the
President of the French Republic, and was dated on the 29th
day of last October, which was shortly before the late Se-
cretary for Foreign Affairs quitted
to doffice. A long time had
wished
elapsed since then, and he ask the Noble Lord who
had succeeded Lord Palmerston whether any answer was
returned by Lord Palmerston to those remonstrances ; and if
so. what the nature of the reply was ?
in him to
_go at any length into the subject.
Earl GRANVILLE said, having so lately succeeded the
Noble Viscount (Palmerston) he thought it would not be
given any
entrrgance be could not state, but it he had remained
the Noble Viscount had answertothe
he had no doubt it would
hrt‘.evaemevhoeoemnt
ahsiccorded with the one which he (Earl Granville) had
in office, and had sent a reply,
given.ie
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH wished to know whether
the late Secretary for Foreign Affsirs had given him any ex-
planation with respectin twohtilache conversation which be had had
Earl GRANVILLE said with M. Walewski
otcleooanntv?erwshateinon
Lhoerdhapd
Palmerston
quitted
office, he had given of the conduct of Louisouis Na
statement with respect to ouvrernelahtii
but he had made no mention of his
relations
a n
scwmo
intoivis
conversation
te
igonrn
caownodint
with
rlucid,ime a
Walewski.
THE CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL AND THE PA-
Lord LYNDIIU RST eaid he wished
TENT LAW AMEN, Mto call the attention
ENT.
of the House to the state of the business which was now
before it. In the House of Commons there were seven or
eight imnortant BUN, which no doubt would become law
during the present session ; whilst; with the exception of the
Bill relating to the amendment of the patent law, which had
been read a second time that evening, there was not a single
Bill before the House. Some people thought that the House
of Lords was a sort of House of revision of the Bills passed
in the House of Commons, but that was quite a mistake.
He was surprised that the Charitable Trusts Bill, which
was brought forward last session, had not been re-
introduced. There was also another important Bill which
was introduced last session, viz., the Patent Law Amend-
ment Bill, which went down to the House of Com-
mons and nearly became the law of the land. It was
thought that from the nature of the Bill it was better that
it, should be introduced first in the other House, but after
some consi 'eration that proposal wcs rejected. Some forty
or fifty amendments had been made in the Reuse of Com-
mons to that Bill; one of which wes to do away with the
affixing the great seal to patents, a proposition which ex-
cited the displeasure of his Noble and Learned Friend on the
Woolsack. Owing to the number of amendments to the Bill,
it had only been returned to their Lordships' House the day
before Parliament was prorogued, and consequently was lost
for the session, there hei,,g no time to consider the amend-
ments which had been made. They had now now to go
over the details of the Bills which were lost last session
again. Such would be the case with the Charitable Trusts
Bill, and the;l3ill for the amendment of the patent law.
He begged to ask, therefore, whether his Noble and
Learned Friend on the Woolsack could not introduce the
Charitable Trusts Bill, and some Noble Lord on the
other side of the House the Patent Law Amendment Bill,
into their Lordships' House to prevent further loss of time ?
eanaidndition
The LORD CHANCgEhLtL right,
gl :ht tthh e
restrainli'lai
infringing
Patent Le aw
proceedingsAmend-
mentiune.
heof suggested
law
to
grantth
to
,red with great care, and when the
Bill had been prep
Bill was brought under hisan.ocotiacret
of one clause, authorising
injunc-
tion when it was thou
of parties who might be charged'to their Lordships ,rli2ging a patent.
The Bill was brought in House as early as
it could be; but, after it went down to the other House, it
was so entirely altered that, at the late period at which it
ossible th
it was imp at it could be re-consi-
was returned.
ession. In some communications he had had wi h
der
last
on the esubect he had
is colleagus
l Bills which had proposed to bring into
that house al in theo previous session
of Co the House mons but •
passed not their Lordships'
r introduce i h
House, an- - n t-e House of Commons such
Bills as might have nassed their Lordships' House but not
the other House of Parliament ; and dun er that arrange-
ment the Patent Bill was intended to have been brought
into their Lordship,' 'Luse.
A communication, how-
ever, had been made to the Government, which led them to
strenuously suppose that the Bill would beopposed is
the ether House, unless * a Committee were
pointed to inquire generally into the subject. Some very
influential members of the House of Commons, who were
extremely competent to give their judgment upon the ques-
tion, desired to have this Committee; and no time would be
lost in forwarding the Bill. The Charitable Trusts Bill had
passed that House last session, and had been fully discussed
both upstairs and down, and it was therefore deemed ex„

.1171 •••
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73.1, -- OP
Ara.

LOYAL PRINCESS'S THEATRE, OXFORD-mTR.EET.
Onder the Management,.)l Mr. C. gee'.
THIS EVENDTti.
Will be performed, the Flay of THE IRON CHEST. Principal
characters by Messrs. C. Kean, Harley, Ryder, Addison, Meadows,
C. Fisher, and Cathcart ; Misses Mary Keeley, Murray, and Frank-
land.
After which, the Operetta of the SWISS COTTAGE (as acted at
Windsor Castle by Royal Command), in which Mr. and Mrs. Keeley
and Mr. A. Wigan will appear.
With a new grand Christmas Pantomime, entitled HARLEQUIN
BILL Y TAYLOR ; or, The Flying Datchman and the King of Rs,-
ritongo. Harlequin, Mr. Cormact ; Clown, Mr. Flesmore ; Panta-
loon, Mr. Paulo ; and Columbine, Miss Desborough.

KuYAL LYCEUX THEATIL6.
Under the Management 01 Madame Vestris.
THIS EVENING,
Will be performed
THE GAME OF SPECULATION. Principal characters by
Messrs. C. Mathews, F. Matthews, R. Roxby, B. Baker ; Mrs. C.
Born, and :Sfiss M. Oliver.
To conelnee with
A• new and original Fairy Extravaganza, by J. R. Manche, Esq.,
!dined THE PRINCE OF HAPPY LAND ; or, The Fawn in the
Forest. Characters by Madame Vestris, 311.33 St. George, Miss
Lanza, Miss Martindale, Miss Grove, Miss Ellis, Miss Rosins Wright,
Messrs. F. Matthew?, B. Baker, Suter, Horneastie, Butler, and
'Vernon.

ROYAL OLYMPIC lIIEAME.
...eases and Mans.,,,er, Mr. W. Farrcc,
Etvill be THIS EVE YANG,
31r. Inizo Inkhorn, Performed A CONSPIRATOR IN SPITE OF HIMSELF.
horn, Mr. Farren ; Tiffin, Mr. Cempton ; Hastings,
Mr' W. Farren, Jun., Bertha, bliss L. Hard
ss ow ;
Bartlett. Margaret, Mrs
After which AN ORGANIC AFFECTION.
To conclude with RED RUFUS ; or, Harlequin Fact, Fiction, and
Red R Fancy.
--utus, Mr. Shalders ; Clown, Mr. Edwards; Harlequin,
Mr. Forrest; Pantaloon, Mr. Tanner; Columbine, Miss Lees.

,XCH'A PLAYHOusE A
ST RAND TLI EA tax,.
Le`'see•
The
rf /I„,r- W.eBft -Co-rF. LAND, Liverpool.
"T_
Th.! Theatre in London.
Will be performed a
Farce, entitled CIRCUMSTANTIAL
EVIDENCE. Characters by
misses Marshall and Maskell. Messrs. Rogers, Belton, Rower*
To be followed by THE TWELVE LABOURS OF HERCULES.
To be followed by a new Chinese burl
-
RI 'S DAUGHTER , or, Willow PatterneelUe'
Called
THE MiLNDA-
Messrs. J. Reeve, Rogers, Romer, Attwood, Characters by
Marshall, Sanders, Bell, Eglinton, and Ma.skell Hudspeth ; Mesdames
After which, The JUVENILE PARTY.
r_tt :rices of admission are arrang,,c 10113 w
4s;
toxes (lint circle), 35.; (second circle), :—Orchestra stalls.
bb opened at Hali-past Six, and Is.
to Pertormanc" to
eoirtmetieu at Seven precisely.
A jeamd price will be taken to the Boxes only at „.
140 o'clock
—ore drew, 25.; ee,cond circle, Is,
private Boxes One Guinea and .1 Half each.
stage Manager, Mr. E. Stirling.

AS I0-v 5 ROYAL AM F iIITIIE
ty and his
Under ~be Fatroaaffe 01 a3rr,o,
51. ies R°vt. Highness
Proprietor and Manager, Mr. W. Batty.
The most successful and popular Theatre in London.
Tips FVENI.N‘s,
Will be performed a Magnificent Spectacle, entitled BLUEBEARD ; or, Female Curiosity, In which will be introduced a pair of
highly-trained Elephants, male and female, allowed to be the most
docile pair ever brought into Europe.
.tatty's Inimitable Scenes of the Arena, combining talent
of the highest ener, both Native and Forelem.
With the nv,st popular and only Eolestrian Pantomime In London,
entitled MR. and MISS. BRIGGS ; or, Punch's Festival Mirth,
Wit, and Jollity. T-4
Pantaloon, Mr. Ru—carknategnuitn'e3lorwr.nlia, who will in the
Ars,:tehya;r Csoel ul
snio q Avery ;
course of each evening play a number of favourite airs on the
B>ck Etarmonicon.
Tickets to ba had at the Box-offlce from Eleven till Four daily.
Stage Maaa4zr, .°.lr. T. Thoinnsc n•

HIGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE.
LIU DAY —Mornin; 8 in. after 5 Evening 31 min after 5
i-Itoazow—Horning 54 min. after 5 ;Evening 15 min atter 6

THE WEATHEB.,—;zu-N OFFICE, FEBRUARY 10.
THERMOMETER, nt THE &UDE.
41—highest since n3on yesterday.
30 —lowest this morning and during the night.
38 —this day, at noon.
Bißoramma, 29•85; a rise of more than half an inch since
yesterday.
WIND N. to N.N.E.—strong squalls,with occasional showers
of hail, rain, and snow ; heavy fall of snow for half an
hour in the morning.