The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-05 00:00:00

1852.

out of 15,000, which were generally at home, and to
these numbers they might add 5,300 marines. He wee,
however, told that he ought not to compute the officers,
the non commissioned officers and the bend. Ile wanted
to know why they should not be included in the force
which constituted a combatant army? If he had made
these deductions ha would be compelled to make similar
deductions from the army of the enemy. As yet he (Sir
de Lacy Evans) had said nothing about the 13,000
mounted yeomanry in this country. He considered,
however, that they were a very good force, and believed
that they would prove very troublesome customers in the
flank and rear of an invading army. With regard to the
French army, they were not, as had been stated,
400,000. The French estimates showed that they were
369,000, and from that number was to be deducted
70,000 men for Algiers; so that here at once were
100 000 men struck off this reputed force of 400 000.
Then, again, if he followed the practice which was
adopted with reference to the estimates for our own
army, he should have to deduct from the remaining
300,000 the officers, non-commissioned officers, drum-
mers, and trumpeters-and these stood as follows:-
Officers, 16,000; non-commissioned cfficers, 22,500; and
drummers and trumpeters, 23,000. In the next place,
he must &duet 21,000 Bens d'armes, who were
a sort of local police force, and not available for an in-
vading expedition. But if they were to be taken as
forming pert of the army, he saw no reason why we
should not also count the 10,000 or 12,000 police in Ire-
land, who were better soldiers, in his opinion, than any
troops the French could bring against us. Allowing,
therefore, these deductions, and others on account of the
sick-list, the French army would be reduced to 200,000
men. Did Hon. Gentlemen think, however, that the
whole even of this force was available for any sudden
exigency? No such thing. For of that number 100,000
men would be required for the garrison towns, and still
leave the important forts of Strasburg, Belfort, Metz,
Lille, and other places, without a garrison; and if all
these were properly garrisoned, he did not think 30,000
men could be sent as an invading force against this coun-
try. With regard to the measure of her Majesty's
Ministers, he thought the force it proposed to raise was
a delusive force, that the Militia Bill of the late Govern-
ment was a less objectionable measure, and that in the
present state of the public mind a much more substan-
tial and effective addition might be made to our national
defences. As to war with France he did not think there
was the least probability of such an event occurring.
The fact was that since the year 1848 the French had
gone on reducing their army, and whereas it numbered
in that year 502,000 men, it was now but 369,000, so
that the amount of reduction in three years only was not
less than 132,000 men.
Mr. BERESFORD observed, that the original state-
ment upon the subject of the army we could bring into
the field was made by the Home Secretary, who, not
without due consideration, and desirous to state the
highest amount available e placed it at 25,000. The Hon.
and Gallant M= .tuber (Sir D. L. Evans) placed it at
85,000; that included the officers, whom it was not
usual to reckon in official returns, but this could easily
be allowed for. The Hon. and Gallant Member in-
cluded the army in Ireland; the late Prime Minister the
other night excluded that from the force available for the
defence of Great Britain, and stated that co man re-
sponsible for the government of this country or for the
defence of Ireland would withdraw a man from Ireland
in case of invasion here; and in that ho (Mr. Beresford)
agreed, and should exclude the 21,000 rank and file in
Ireland. The same reason would apply to the armed
police-a most efficient force, raised from the lower
classes there irrespective of creed, proving that
men might be trusted with arms and relied upon in the
case of need.-(Hear, hear.) But if that force was
necessary in Ireland now, in time of peace, it would be
equally necessary there in case of invasion.-(Hear,
hear.) There would be a great difficulty in bring-
ing over from Ireland the pensioners, of whom nearly
6,000 were in that country ; they would make
excellent troops in well chosen positions, but
they were not troops of such activity as would
make it desirable to remove them here and bring
them into the field. Then, leaving out the Irish force,
we should have in England 39,172 men. That included
5,029 cavalry; but the southern portion of England was
not that description of country where cavalry would be
exceedingly available to repel an invasion. Deducting
the cavalry, therefore, there would remain 34,143 in-
fantry, artillery, sappers and miners, and foot guards.
Now, on an average of six regiments in this country and
Ireland, it was found that, including recruits at drill,
there were about 205, or nearly one-fourth of the esta-
blishment, non-efficient; deducting the recruits (at this
moment very numerous) it was only 142, or one-sixth;
one-fifth would be a fair deduction to make to find the
number that could be brought into the field effective,
and this would reduce the available infantry and artil-
lery to 27,314. Now, the Hon. and Gallant Member
was severe upon the Right Hon. Member for Sough
Wilts for taking upon himself to sketch the distribution
of the army, but he (Mr. Beresford) must do it. He
could not mention higher authority than that of the
Noble and Gallant Duke commanding the army, the
Noble and Gallant Officer at the head of the ordnance,
and the Gallant Officer at the head of the engineers.
The highest amounts of force which they respec-
tively calculated as necessary in case of invasion,
for holding arsenals and ports, were 33,000
infantry and artillery, 30,000, and 28,000. Taking
the last of these estimates, there would be required
for Jersey, Guernsey, and Alderney, 5,000 men; for the
Thames, including Sheerness, Tilbury, the Tower,
Deptford, Woolwich, 8,000 men; for Dover and its
dependencies, 2,000; for Portsmouth, 5.000; and for
Plymouth, 5,000; for Pembroke and other detached
places, 3,000. Adding the pensioners to the artillery
and infantry, an available force would be made up of
34,280 rank and file; and, deducting 28,000, the force
necessary for the defence of the arsenals and ports, there
would remain of infantry and artillery available for other
purposes 6,280 rank and file. There remained the
cavalry, which would not bn so efficient a force to meet
an enemy in the southern part of England on account of
the enclosures; adding 4,023 cavalry and 261 sappers
and miners to the 6,280 infantry, there would be 10,564
rank and file to meet an invading force. It must be al-
lowed that 10,500 men did not constitute a proper and
available force to meet an invasion. How, then, it would
be asked, would you make up an available force? He
would reply, by this very militia. By the existence of
such a force they would be enabled to hold the garrisons
and forts to which he had referred. The militia, whom
some called a rabble, were Englishmen, fit with
the addition of soldiers, to maintain those places.
They were an available force of infantry for that pur-
pose; and it was to get a proper and available force' for
the field that the militia was desirable. If the Noble
Lord the late First Minister of the Crown found out in
April that there were 90,000 or 100,000 men available
for the defences of the country, why did he not make
the discovery in January or February, when ho was
digesting a Militia Bill? It could not be supposed that
it was necessary for him to go into Opposition to ascer-
tain the available force at the service of the Government.
The Hon. Member for Richmond suggested another and
larger view; he made his force 200,000 men.
Mr. RICH remarked that the force he stated was that
which might be available if the additions he suggested
were made.
Mr. BERESFORD would acknowledge in that case
that the militia would be useless. But it was not an
ideal force that was wanted. He would not have it said
that this was not a military nation. Whore was the
country whose soldiers showed more devotion as well as
subordination? Those men who, on board the Birken-
head, did not flinch amid the terrors of the vasty deep,
would not fail amid the excitement of the battle-field.
It had been said that one great source of safety to
the country would be this difficulty of disembarkation;
and that in Montego Bay, which took ten days,
had been cited. It did not appear why, because that
disembarkation took ten days, a disembarkation on the
English coast should take ten days. First, the French
coast was near; secondly, steam power could be applied;
thirdly, on th disembarkation at Montego Bayther
there
was a heavy surf. One would think the Hon. and _ Gal-
lant Member (Sir D. L. Evans) was not aware (the Hon.
and Gallant Member, he was sure, however, was aware)
of a disembarkation made in 1814 in North Ann rice,
when an army under General Resas landed in one day,
the 19th of August, commenced its march on the 20th,
marched on the 21st, 22d, and 23d, and, having marched
60 miles, fought on the 24th an action and gained_ vic-
tory. That would show that it was not very difficult for an
English army to disembark in one day; and he trusted
that the Hon. and Gallant Member had not forgotten the
services rendered by Lieutenant Evans as Quartermaster
General on that occasion-had not forgotten his own
services. Tho practice of the Hon. and Gallant Member
sserevlmed better than his theory, his action in the field than
his counsel in the Senate. In the same year a disem-
darkation took place near New Orleans, which began
at six in the morning; 4,500 men were landed by
twelve o'clock, and engaged in action, after a march
of seven miles, at four P.M. If English troops
could disembark in so short a space, so might
others. Ho would not enter on the question of an
augmentation of the army, but he did not believe
that an augmentation could or would be retained. An
addition of 15,000 men, which was not sufficient for the
garrisons, would cost 600,0001. the first year, and
525,0001. the second, whereas the whole expense
for the
militia, the first year, would be 350,000/. only. This force
had received the sanction of the highest military autho-
rities. The old militia papers justified the expectation
that a great body of men would enter the service for the
bounty. He could not see why it should be supposed that
men would not be forthcoming in greater numbers than
at the time to which he referred, for the population had
to
increased. Ho did not think it would be necessary
recur to the ballot. Neither did he believe the militia
of
would interfere with recruiting for thearmy Some
the finest bodies of recruits during
the
alleged impossi-
bility Peninsular war
were sent from the militia. As to the
bility of making men taken fromt
good soldiers, he would refer tehe the p'ough or loom
rapidity
with which,
in 1813, Napoleon, after the loss of his army in Reufs
sia,
raised a force in Januaryhed or the
of those men in
Germany in the month of
orfe
of
beginning
Fe-
bruary, and, having
MLaurcizhe,ef.ougyvhtitahnedeaw.benemineltihee.
following May the battle
sioned officers from the line the force to be raised would
lotions work, if necessary. He
be able to do great and
n gerviCe
believed that v
was more likely to create
independence olluay s
tcharacter
r among the men than the con-
• don of the ballot, nor could he admit it was any
hardshipscrip to call on people to take up erms in defence of
their homes and their country. That was an oblige-
tion which rested on all citizens, and it was a slur on
Englishmen to say they were opposed to a Bill of this
nature, every clause in which was of a mitigated cha-
racter, brought forward as it had been by the Govern-
ment in the honest desire to do their duty and in the
determination to show they would not leave this country
incapable of defence.-(Hear.)
Mr. MACGREGOR believed the statements of the Hon.
and Gallant Member (Sir 1). L. Evans) would be cre-
dited generally, not only by this country, but on the
continent. There Was no necessity for the Dill before

the House. All the States of Europe had been dimie
Dishing their ermies ever since 1848, under the pressure
of tioeneial ,mo.rra -smerits, ant the French nation in
par teller haft bets stated by Marshal Sot& to have
bee ene averse to war and military service. It' the army
of the country was insufficient for its defence, the people
would demand new estimates. He contended that the
statements made on a former occasion by the Secretary
of the Admiralty were not correct, and that, so far
from being interior to other States in our naval power,
our fleet was much greater than that of France or Russia,
added to which there was en enormous mercantile
steam navy, capable of defeeding our shores in
time of peace Those whom he represented de-
teved the very idea of a number of people
being led away from
.their homes as volunteers
for a period of four or six weeks, knowing that
it would drmaraliz them much more than if they
enlisted in the regular army ; and, if there existed a
nee, saity for an increased militel y force, it would be far
better at one' to increase the ri ruler standing army.
Sir F. BARING was anxious to ata'e why he should
vote against the amendment. The Secretary of the Ad'
miralty had stated that he considered it inconvenient for
the public service to furnish the information called for
by the lion. Member. He (Sir P. Boring's) own expe-
rience led him to concur in that opinion. He had him-
s-lf on former occasions declined giving returns of a
much less specific nature thin those now asked for.
When the department of the Government which was re-
sponsible declint dto furnish such returns, it was never
tee practice to compel the production of them. These
were just the returns an enemy (if there were
any) would be anxious to obtain. He was aware that it
would be said that an enemy could get the same informa-
tion elsewhere. So let him. lie admitted that the publi-
city of the press in this country did enable parties abroad
to get a knowledge of the proceedings of the English Go-
vernraent which could not let obtained concerning the
proceedings of foreign Governments by us. But let us
not get into the practice of furnishing foreign countries
with every inforinetion they were anxious to obtain.
But that was not the main object of the amendment;
The Hon. Member for Manchester frankly eta"
last night that he supported the amendment with a view
to get rid of the Bill altogether. He (Sir F. Baring)
voted for the second reading of the Bill. Without en-
tering into the war question, he might observe that be
had concurred with the most eminent military authori-
ties—with the Government of Sir R. Peel, with that of
his Noble Friend (Lard J. Russell), and with the pre-
sent Government—as to the inadequacy of our present
military defences. There might he exaggeration in the
statements its to any immediate danger, but the ques-
tion really was, whether their defences were sufficient to
secure them against invasion. lie admitted that it was
for the interest of every country to keep at pew°, es"
among the rest that it was for the interest of the Prot'
dent at the head of the French Government to do so;
but he was aeraid, judging from the history of the world,
that the argument which the Hun. Member for Mee-
chester had urged a' to the impossibility of France en-
tertaining the notion of invading this country was scarce'y.
to be relied on. He would rather have the assurance that
we were in a position to defend ourselves. Even supnos:
ing the return were granted, he could not see what would
be gained by it. With great respect to the Hon. Member
(Hr. Cobden), he dia not believe he would, even then, be
in possession of sufficient knowledge of public affairs to
enable hint to judge of what would be a proper distribue
tion of the British fleet. It was the duty of the Govern-
ment to propos3 to Parliament the force which they con
It
sidered adequate for the protection of the country.
was rare indeed that Parliament took upon itself the I,°:
sponsibility of reusing to grant that force which the
Government required. But when the force bad been
granted it was fur the Government to apply it in a a;
nor best calcu'ated to carry into effect that defence for
which they were responsible. He should very much Ter:
gret to see Parliament dictating to the Government
eisl
what manner the ships 'constituting the fleet of la
country should be distributed. Without the necessary
information, it was impossible that any Hon. Member
should be able to form a judgment es to the distribution
of our ships. He was afraid the Honourable Gentleman
would not gain much by the adoption of Berne of the
proposal which he had made. It was not possible (50
we understood the Right Honourable Baronet to say) to
call all the line of battle ships home and station them t,
the Channel. The Honourable Gentleman appeared to
be under the impression that we had a :r eat naval force
abroad, without being of any use whatever. The goll•
Gentleman could not be aware of the number of apPli'
cations by the commercial interests abroad for protee;
tion. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that one °1
the main reasons why our merchants wore not injured
,
in some of the South American States was because the
people of those States knew that our ships would not
permit those merchants to be injured. He was glad .
avail himself of this opportunity of expressing his appro'
batiun of the good judgment and discretion which our,
naval officers had «xercised in some of the States of
south America. The lion. Gentleman had also bug'
gested that ships sta.ioned in the East Indies should be
recalled. All he (Sir F. Baring) would say with regard
~
to the present mode of employing those ships was, ttis
nothing conduced more to the spread of civilization
G
throughout the world than the keeping safe the hialevv_ll
of commerce—the sea. With regard to the Af.r,a7;
squadron, he would not now touch upon it. He did not
believe the people' would at present consent to irit,b_afile,
that squadron, and when the Chancellor of the
quer the other night made, in his free trade oPeeichich
(Cheers)—an allusion to the great advantages
Fuger,
had arien from the reduction of the duty e-„ eof
he (Sir F. Baring) rt fleeted with some degre
satisfaction that that result was in a g "
reat degree 0
and
be attributed to the exertions of that squad' et
that when ho left office the slave trade was The
lower ebb than it had been fur many a long
Hon. Gentleman, in commenting upon some observe
toed
he (Sir F. Baring) made on a former eccasien, orPe oat
to have misunderstood him. lie (Sir F. Bering) ye of
occasion, expressed his doubts as to the expediencuYnds
year.
_dons
keeping up a large fleet in the Ctiaunel. The grb°, eb-
of his doubts were these,—he apprehended that Lte,
ject of their navel defence was to secure their own sal'2,
but, at the same time, to do so by means the least Tbat
dlesome and offeesive possible to other parties.
Qtr
was the mode in which those Rho were anxious for
tb
own safety, and also for peace, would distributeersas"ri
force they had at command. Here be must rke last
upon a misunderstanding of what was stated bltuber
Secretary but one of the Admiralty, the Hon. Meant
for Tyrone (Mr. Curry.) If that Hon. Gentl, man
_3l 0f
to state that there was a superiority in the Chttneir F.
the French over the English force, then be ( seas
Baring) entirely differed from the Hon. Gentle
sees
as to the fact. But the Honourable Gentleman
speaking of the whole force of the -thr:rai-el,
in the Mediterranean, as well as in the Cv!., the
and was comparing it with the British force i_LLedy
Channel only. Now, he (Sir F. Baring) stated dishtifleft
and deliberately the' at the time and before el° was
office, and even so early' as in December last, there s
EO
ample power in the English force for manning sbiPcotn"
as to secure to us a sup, riority in the Channel, as
ion in
pared, not with the French ships then in commission the
the Channel, for there were hardly any, bat with .
French ships in port. With regard to the plan fer,te wd to
zing the ships which he had proposed, he regreii,efe
find that it was considered by the Admiralty to barn, if
fieient. He should have had no reason to amp, e timethey thought the plan wrong, had they wished toe.niae;
to consider it, and postponed the adoption of theialty
but )se did regret that two officers of the Min hot-
should have condemned (and one of them in strong,,,elf
guage, too) that plan, and yet that the AdmiraltifYeret 0 if
should nut have abandoned it. Abandon the scheme they,
you please, but don't say you will try the plan, an", in of
in the House of Commons, systematically coeleaberne
it. lie did not consider that fair play to any °-
that might be preposed.—(llear.) • ed the
Captain DUNCOMBE was sorry to have rales., b-
indignation of the Right Hon. Gentleman hYeu.c sec-
servations with respect to,the legacy left to tuehl of
censors by the late Board of' Admiralty, in the 5-6'''rbe
the proposal for a reserve force for the navy' vat however, would remember that those °"e been
tions, made in the course of a preceding debate, hs,'leed-
called forth by the speech of a Gallant Admiraietinaide
mind Berkeley), ono of the Right Hon. Geetniroolf.
Colleagues, who evidently coedemned the plan res 6
—Wear, hear.) the present Board saw
difficulty very
the
roposed by ,
in carrying out the scheme as P not sane
late Admiralty, seeing that the proposition was No on°
tioned by any officers employed iu the
subject, hoaever, had had greater considerate
_t_earci
this, or had been more maturely weighed, and t
had perceived that there would be a very greaftadettlaribe
service.
on
_Lan
navy. If the Right Hon. Gentleman accused in carrying it out so as to promote the welfare r °f rd
"ce.
sideretion of the scheme bad not yet been ahandd
ir
of any double-faced dealing, he would state that tn°
The Noble Duke at the head of the Board had cot 'Jtteody
with experienced officers n
and willing to curry the plan out to the fullest wtblia
0.. the subject, and svea3 eat it'
x
it could be proved to be for the benefit of the P'
service.—(Hear.)
office at the dm and
Sir F. BARING was not aware that he had used,
was
did not intend to use, any words the effect of which ere
imputation upon the honour of those wh°,‘„,,elf
now Airalty. He thought it tothfrsow
tiec have
necessary to make this explanation, which th f the
been rendered necessary by a mistake on the part
Hon. Gentleman opposite. first
Mr. HUME, having when this Militia Bill was e.
proposed by the Noble Lord then at the head of her' •nal
jesty's Government stated his objections to the Priricbilch
of the Bill, as not being consonant to the age 'fi
at
we lived, and contrary to the feelings of the country
large, had intended to content himself with that opfiuncht
tion and with voting against it on these grow
one of its stages; hut there had been the
in every
extraordinary statements made in the course ofe cow
debates that had ensued, and allegations (as he eof
ceived) so utterly preposterous, that he ecn,„„ me
allow this opportunity to pass without ventutinl.ore
state the view he took cf the question nOW the
information
the House.
which was He couldsou notht in conce
theivreturn ""e botoeed
g u
for by the lion. Member for the West Riding ldos the
called unnecessary. Ho admitted that the effec_t.cof,,
motion would be to postpone the Bill,
like manner, was to postpone it until the present tete
as to invasion had left both the present and I"' a
oiled Oa
Cabinet.—(Hear, hear.) The panic which prer
the subject of our national defences had beenvveu:, and
and his onle!
sort of cholera, for it came and nobody knew_ 1°,,-;tit he
taeling,T)
went away and nobody
believed that, whatever might be the state
doors;
the House, there was no such alarm out
and it wild
knew bow.—(A laugtcif)
petitions had been presented vgeinet the Bill,a
the de3tire
most desirable to postpone it until we ha
tion to the
this return would be to give informa „co
grant
information. The House had been gravely told the- t°
• been kept secret, that iu the appe
enemy, but, so fur was similar infuse:nation .txl3l3toj'ol3
having wowreport of the Naval Committee of 1843 they that
n£o o
1-
; nq:lid le
find given the number of ships from 1828.
year, the Et5t10133 the ships were Q 0

le-
ple
ere
3st
ey
1e
far

ald
►d-
for
for
Pc"