The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-18 00:00:00

JUICE 18, I@s.

without any project of reform being put forward even as
"looming iu the distance."—(Hear, hear.)
Lord CIiANWORTH sincerely hoped the Noble Lord
would net consent to withdraw the Bill.—(" Hear, hear,"
from Lord Wodehouse.) lie rejoiced to hear that that
was not the Noble Lord's intention. Although the meA-
sure proposed to deal with that which was undoubtedly
a very small matter, it was nevertheless an acknow-
ledgPd abuse, acknowledged to be so by six Right Rev.
Prelates who were upon the
Commission; and the re-
moval of it, so far from interfering with the great reform
contemplated by Government to be made hereafter would,
in his (Lord Cranworth's) opinion, clear the way for and
facilitate the passing of such a measure.—(Rear, hear.)
But he bad a further reason why ho thought the 13111
should pass now, and it was that the arguments of the
Bishop of Oxford went to the assertion of the doctrine
that there ought to be ecclesiastical jurisdiction over lay-
men. Now, at a period like the present, when so much
was said respecting the " encroachments" of ecclesiasti-
cal jurisdiction upon the civil rights of the country, he
felt that he should bo guilty of a neglect of his duty if
he did not rise and enter his protest against the doctrine
which inevitably flowed from the words of tho Right
R Reverend Prelate. For this reason, then, if for no
other, he trusted his Noble Friend would persevere with
the Bill.—(Cheers.)
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading
Against it

... 45
... 80
... -35

Majority ...
The Bill was therefore lost.
On the motion of the Ea' of DESART, the Passen-
gers' Act Amendment Bill was read a second time.

ENFRANCHISEMENT OF COPYHOLDS BILL.

The House having gono into Committee on this Bill,

Lord LYNDHUIt'ir rose and drew attention to the
circumstance that when the Bill was read a second time
by their Lordships, and his Noble and Learned Friend
on the woolsack proposed to refer it to a Select Commit-
tee, his Noble and Learned Friend opposite (Lord
Campbell) expressed a doubt of the good faith with
which that motion was made, and declared that his
Noble and Learned Friend's object was to get rid of the
Bill altogether. Now, as the Bill was originally framed,
there could be no doubt that, if passed in that shape, its
operation would have been most injurious alike to the
lords and tenants of copyholds. But by taking the course
which the Lord Chancellor did, and referring the mea-
sure to a Select Committee, its blemishes had been re-
moved, and it was likely to prove a much more useful
and valuable measure than it would otherwise have been.
As a member of the Committee he (Lord Lyndhurst)
wished to bear his testimony to these facts, and to thank
his Noble and Learned Friend for the course he had
adopted.—(Hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL said that if, when the Bill was
read a second time, he had thought there was a bond fide
intention to pass it in the present session of Parlia-
ment, he should not for one moment have doubted that
the proper course was to refer it to a Select Committee of
their Lordships House. He had always applauded that
mode of proceeding in this House, particularly in refe-
rence to Bills which were directed to effect alterations in
the law. It was the course which ho himself had uni-
formly pursued; and he repeated, that if he had ima-
gined, when the second reading of the Bill was moved,
that it was the intention of his Noble and Learned
Friend that it should pass daring the present session, he
should not have objected to the proposal to refer it to
a Select Committee. Let him remind their Lordships,
however, that on that occasion his Noble and Learned
Friend said that the measure was wrong both in its prin-
ciple and its details.—(Hear, hear.) He rejoiced that
the Bill had been referred to a Select Committee, and no
doubt it now came before their Lordships in a greatly
improved shape.—(Hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR had hoped that his
Noble and Learned Friend would have withdrawn the
censure which he had thought proper to pass upon him—
namely, that, in proposing to refer the Bill to a Select
Committee, he professed one thing and meant another.
Now, he (the Lord Chancellor) considered that it was
his duty, at all times, to tell their Lordships what were
the real and sincere opinions he entertained upon any
measure which might come before the House, and that
he was not first to ascertain whether those opinions were
popular or unpopular.—(Hear, hear.) On the second
reading of this Bill, his Noble and Learned Friend
said that he did not object to its being referred to
a Select Committee ; but what he objectod to was,
that the motion for so referring it was made indi-
rectly for the purpose of defeating the measure. That
his Noble and Learned Friend repeated over and over
again. Now, helbegged to say that he had never changed
his opinion with regard to this measure. He looked
upon it simply as a choice of evils. Public opinion had
called for a remedy for an evil which no one denied;
and he contended that Parliament could not pass a mea-
sure upon the subject without inflicting considerable
injury upon a large class of persons. He was prepared,
however, so far as it lay in his power, to render this as
good a measure as it could be made, and to lessen the
evils which were inevitable under any circumstances:
but take what care they might in passing this measure
they would not be able to prevent a great mass of abso-
lute evil and distress falling upon a great number of
persons. The members of the Committee had but one
object in view, and that was to make the Bill as perfect
as possible. In the endeavour to accomplish that ob-
ject, they had adopted several additional clauses, and
made alterations in almost every one of the original
provisions; and they had been most anxious to protect,
as far as they could, the poorer class of copyhold te-
nants.—(Hear.)
The Earl of STRADBROKE said it would have been
perfectly impossible to pass the Bill in the shape in
which it originally came from the House of Commons;
and he was confident that, in proposing that it should
be referred to a Select Committee, it was never the in-
tention of the Lord Chancellor to throw out the Bill.

Lord BEAUMONT bore his testimony to the pains
taken by the Noble and Learned Lords to make the Bill
of a practicable shape. A more difficult question to
deal with it was scarcely possible to imagine; but he
believed the Committee had completely succeeded, and
that the Bill was now in a state to do the least harm
and the most good of any Bill that could be framed.
Lord CRANWORTH said from the first moment the
Committee met until the last, when the Bill assumed the
shape in which it was now presented to their Lordships,
there bad been the most unremitting and impartial en-
deavours on the part of the members to do justice be-
tween the parties whose interests were affected that he
had ever seen in the whole course of his life; and, not-
withstanding he thought he saw sometimes an almost
ridiculous sensitiveness respecting the rights of the
tenants, he believed that the interests on both sides had
been as fairly arranged as possible.—(Hear, hear.)
The Bill was then passed through Committee.
On the motion of Lord CRAN WORTH, the Trus-
tees' Act Extension Bill was read a second time.

present on a former occasion when the Bill was dis-
cussed, he wished to make one remark in answer to the
observation of the Noble Marquis opposite, that 56 days'
' training would not make efficient soldiers. If the Noble
Marquis meant that it would not make them es efficient
as the Guards or soldiers of the line, he agreed with him,
but he should feel ashamed of any regiment if after 56
days' drill they were not fit for fighting behind stone
walls at Portsmouth. The Bill permitted colonels to en-
list not merely raw recruits, but men who had served,
and there were many in the country who had been in
the army for four or five years, and who would no doubt
gladly enlist into the militia. He was glad to find that
officers who had been in the army and iu the India ser-
vice were to be permitted to be captains and major 3 of
militia. There could be no doubt that recruits would
more willingly follow such leaders than they would coun-
try gentlemen. To a certain extent the present Bill would
answer. It was a step in the right direction, though it
did
not go so far as he could wish. If he bad to face
the Chasseurs do Vincennes in Sussex, ho would cer-
tainly Prefer being at the head of a regiment of the
would give
of the line, for he felt pretty sure that they
give as good .account of them as our Infantry
assvurs of the
In whatever way the - of the militia was be-
Lieutenant. He bed received would
patronage
stowed, ho hoped t'
did
of
the
Cil
6n
Imperial Guard at Waterloo.
fantry regiment, an offie,
for the office of the
ura_Feived about seventy applications__
give none of it to Lords
cl.letant of the Sussex Light Iti-
would in
ne
vacant at present.
Viscount HARDINGE, ' which was unfortunately
said that the drillincy
the line, who would' returngofavtehesamtiislfitaicatiwoanstoovtehre. manaenwageredtobay I%ite°rbgleeanLt's)rodi
In
case
the line alter the drilling
to go back to the militia re.iinerhe
every facility would be given them 1:' militia regiment,
colonel eoTy Of these sergeants
wareuired. He
Horse Gusrdi
thought, however, that after the militiat
ldbewaerge raelawtaydsistcooubreagseelmecetnetd tfprom men if the
iful embodied,
it
sergeantswnn
(t)11
therefore, after the militia were drilled ande line, and,
the appointment of sergeants would embodied,
rest with the
colonels.
The clause (6) as amended was then agreed to.
Clauses up to 25 were agreed to, with verbal _amend_
meats.
On clause 26,

The Marquis of SALISBURY proposed an amend-
ment to the Effect that the Queen should be empowered
to keep the militia in the field for training and drill for
a period not exceeding fifty-six days, and not less than
three days, each year.
Viscount HARDINGE (in reply, as we supposed, to
some remarks of the Earl of Stradbroke) said, that in
early life he had been engaged in training Portuguese
soldiers, and thirty days were found sufficient to fit a
recruit for the ranks. He had consulted with a friend
of his, now a commanding officer in the Guards, and
who had served during the whole of last war, and his
statement was, that after thirty-five days' drill recruits
were sent into the ranks. At present, during peace,
recruits were drilled sixty-five days; but the reason of
that was that there was time to spare, and because it
was not thought right to the recruit to place him noon
responsible and important guards before he was tho-
roughly disciplined. A recruit might be perfectly well
trained for infantry purposes in thirty-five days.
A NOBLE LORD having, as we understood, suggested
a more extended drill than that provided for in the Bill,
The Earl of DERBY remarked that other considera-

tions were involved in the clause than the comparative
efficiency of the recruits. There was the amount of the
expense, and the pressure on the population, to be con-
sidered; and as the House of Commons had agreed to
the clause, after having maturely considered those points,
he was inclined to agree to it as it stood, with reference
to the period of twenty-one days.
The clause was then agreed to.
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed
to without alteration, after which the House resumed.
The General Board of Health Bill was read a third
time, and passed.

The Turnpike Trusts Arrangement Bill went through
Committee.

The Scutch Mills for Flax (Ireland) Bill went through
Committee.

..PENINSULAR AND WATERLOO
LIEUTENANTS,

The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from
200 officers, lieutenants of the Peninsular and Waterloo
campaigns, the greater number of whom were wounded
and suffering severely. They were on the retired list, and
did not wish to put the country. to any additional ex-
pense; but certainly their services entitled them to the
boon which they now sought, which was that they should
be gazetted to the rank of brevet captains.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table; and their
Lordships then adjourned.