The Sun.
London, England, 1864-04-09 00:00:00

scriptions upon the tombstones, that was a matter with re-

spect to which the Government had no right to interfere. If
real names were not inscribed upon the graves, r o doubt
that might be productive of inconvenience in cases where it

migb t be necessary to establish a title to p-01 erty. But
they all knew the inconvenience was mach greater when

no names at all were inscribedupon them, and there was no
law in this country compelling the erection of tombstones.
Tho hon. member had nest referred to the undue influence

vhich had been brought to bear upon the gentleman al-
luded to by Mr. Smee to induce him to part with his pro-

per ty.

Well, it might or might not be true that such in-

fluence had been used. If it had been, there were numerous

precedents on record to prove that the law was powerful to
deal with cases of the kind ; and indeed he had been informed
that proceedings were now being taken with respect to this
very will, founded upon the allegations in the petition of

Mr. Smee.

Mr, NEWDEGAT E said it had been found that the law
was ineffective to meet the case.

Sir G. GREY said that must be because there was no
undue influence exercised. (Hear, hear.) He must say

that no ground whatever had been made out for the ap-
pointment of the committee—that no good could come from
it ; on the contrary, that it might give rise to discussiois
and disputes which had much better be avoided. (Hear,
hear.)

Lord C. HOWARD deprecated religious discussions in
that house, but if they were brought forward they ought to

be accompanied with the same gentlemanly feeling that
prevailed when other questions were brought under the
notice of the house, and which generally pervaded all ranks
of life to some extent. Even before prize fighters com-
menced their pugilistic encounter they shook hands with
some degree of formality. On this occasion a most violent
attack had been made upon the family with which he was
closely related. Yet no intimation was given to him that it

was about to be made. Assertions had been made which

were opposed to the truth, and calumnies had been thrown
out not only against the gentlemen who lived at the Ora-
tory, but by implication on himself, he being a member of
the family to which he had alluded. The attack had come

from theother side of the house, and what he had to say was
in detente; and he therefore hoped the house would permit
him, with as much discretion as he could use, to reply,
though he had no wish to express himself too strongly on the

slanders that had been uttered on the other side of the house.
The hon. member for North Warwickshire identified him-
self with this petition, and one of the statements was that
the family of the Duke of Norfolk was in close communica-
tion with the members of the order, and assisted them in
their various schemes, and it went on to say that young
men of position and wealth were concealed from their friends
by members of the order. That was in fact saying that the

family with which he had the honour of being connected
was engaged with others in conspiracy, in fraud, and in

concealment, He should not further mention this, because
he believed he had many friends—valued friends—amongst

all religious persuasions, and he was sure there was not one
person in the country, unless it was the hon. gentleman,
who would give him or his friends or any one of them
credit for bearing a part in such disgraceful and unheard-
of proceedings. Then there came another clause in this
petition, in which it was stated that the heir of the Duke of
Norfolk, and, he thought it said, his brother, had been seen
assisting in ecclesiastical garments in the public perform-
ance of service there, The hon. member for North War-
wickshire said he belonged to the University of Oxford, he
(Lord E. Howard) belonged to the University of Cam-
bridge, and he was in the habit when he went to the chapel
of the university of being clad in a surplice, and he should
suppose the hon. gentleman had also worn a surplice on
those occasions, and was there anything disgraceful i n
that ? And if he wore a surplice why might not other
people in a public church, like the Oratory at Brompton,
do so. He had seen his nephew assisting there, and he
had got a little boy grown up to that age when one's
feelings are bound up so much, to an age when he pro-
mised to be the hope of one's family or the prop to
one's declining years, Persons were good enough to
commend his appearance and disposition, and all that,
and he was proud to say that that little boy also assisted
his nephew in the garments on which the hon. gentleman
had made such observations. That little boy died within a
very short period of his assisting at this public service of
their Church,!and he could tell the hon. gentleman, so far
from being ashamed of it, it was a great comfort to him that
he had been allowed at the solicitation of his mother, to
pay that small mead of respect to his Maker. He had
passed to a purer and a better wild, where there was cer-
tainly no malignity like that to which his family had been
that night exposed ; and he did not believe that little boy
would have a less bright place there because he paid his
mead of respect to his Maker on earth, Nor did he believe
his mother, who was also gone, had a less bright place theme
because it was at her request that he paid that mead of
praise. He had had to sustain the grief of these two losses
within the short space of 20 months, coupled with the loss
of the father of the young duke, a most excellent man and
the best of brothers. (Hear, hear.) That grief was to be
ripped open by the hon. gentleman, who had as it were
ripped off the lids of the coffins of those who were gone, to
be held up to public execration, because a person such as
Mr. Smee chose to allege impossibilities and untruths in a
petition for which the hon, gentleman became sponsor in
that house. Having said this much as personal to himself,
although he was not undertaking the defence of the Oratory,
it was fair that he should advert to sorsething that had
dropped from the hon. member for North 'Warwickshire,
He mentioned the case of a Mr. Harrison. Now. Mr. Har-
rison was brought to the Oratory by an elder brother, who
was an officer in the army. He became, no doubt, a
convrt under such circumstances, and he returned to the
Westminster School the same night, and shortly after-
wards to his father. Hs was surprised that a gentleman
in the position of a county member should endeavour to
influence a case, by animadversion in that house, which
was before the ordinary tribunals of the country. Whatever
the will was he knew nothing of it; it was in its proper
place, and he had no doubt it would be properly disposed of
by the authorities in whose presence it now stood. As to
the register of deaths, a name on a tombstone was of no
value; but the proof of death was to be found in the register
kept by a proper officer. Ho now passed from the petition,
to which he need not further allude; but he invited the
attention of his hon. friend whilst he replied to the flagiti-
ous attack which had been made upon him. The hon.
gentleman (Mr. Newdegate) had some scruples of conscience
as to the letter addressed to the Duchess of Norfolk from
Finsbury-circus ; but his scruples only extended t 3 the ad-
dress and not to the contents of the letter, he saying it
should have been addressed to two gentlemen whom he
called guardians, bat who held no such position.
Mr. NE WDEGATE—I said trustees.
Lord C, HOWARD—As to Mr. Hutchinson's money,
the amount of which had been exaggerated, he was a just
and a charitable man, and had a right to dispose of it as ho
liked. No one would blame him for devoting his property
to charitable or religious purposes, to which people fre-
quently gave their money and their lives. 'Well, he must
deny that the duchess had had the smallest share in this
calumny, which had been so improperly brought before the
house, and which he must say in some measure the hon.
gentleman identified himself. Ho must have known of
these letters being written.
Mr. NEWDEGATE—I knew not one single thing
about it.
Lord C. HOWARD continued. He hoped this would
be a caution to the hon. gentleman in future as to what
company he trusted himself in, and what use might be
sought to be made by others of one who was a member of
one of the largest interests in England. Really, a gentle-
man of his age—(laughter)—they heard of young men
going into the metropolis and being taken advantage of by
persons here and there. This did happen, but the house
would allow him to suggest, in the most friendly way, that
if the hon. gentleman had not been prudent hitherto, he
should in future have some little introduction, and see who
the persons were who sought to father their views upon him
and lead him into practices whioh he himself would depre-
cate. That paper accused the duchess of the prospective
murder of her daughter by immuring her in a certain con-
vent. That young lady was his niece, and he never saw a
person so anxious to enter into the order, knowing well its
scope and practices, as she was. There were many young
w omen who like her never could be happy in the tumult
and disturbance of the world. The hon. gentleman had
said that they should respect the feelings of others as Pro-
testants. Had the hon. gentleman respected their feelings
as Catholics when he stated that he disapproved of the letter
being addressed to the duchess, but not its contents. That
letter said her grace stood by the grave of his relative in a
sort of ecstasy; that was not attributing the most praise-
worthy motives to her grace, who seemed to have gone to
the funeral to take part in the ceremony that was being per-
formed on the solemn occasion. And then as to the increase
in the number of converts; the fact was that in 999 cases
out of 1000 these converts simply consisted of two or three
nuns, who were invited into the neighbourhood to teach a
school which some philanthropic gentleman had founded.
There were those—and probably the hon. gentleman
amongst the number—who accused the Catholics of keep-
ing their poor in ignorance ;and yet they threw every ob-
stacle in the way of their educating them. He apologised
to the house for the statement which he had made ; it had
been most painful to him. If the sorrows whichoppressed
one more than one could describe were to be raked up in this
way before the public one must come to the house and in
one's place defend himself from. such attacks. Unfortu-
nately his famiiy had been diminished very considerably of
late, but he was happy that he was spared to defend them
from the calumnies which he had hoped that no member of
this house would have lent himself to. His family could
wish the hon. member (Mr. Newdegate) no harm; they
would wish; that he might see the error of his ways, and as
he became an older he might become a wiser and a juster
man. Thanking the house most cordially for the reception
they had given him, and convinced that the British public
would know where to bestow its sympathy and its judgment
—a judgment, although it might be misled at times, was in
the main sound and healthy—he left the case with the fullest
confidence in their hands. (Cheers.)
Mr. O'IIA.GAN said it was perfectly notorious that, in
every probate cella in Ireland, as well as in England, cases
were continually occurring on the ground that spiritual in-
fluence had been exercised, and on that ground the verdict
was sometimes set aside. The hon. and learned gentleman
proceeded to say that Mr. Hutchinson had a fortune of
£30,000, over which he had had entire control during his