The Sun.
London, England, 1864-03-11 00:00:00

THE PENAL SERVITUDE BILL.

In reply to Sir J. PAKINOTON,
Str Ci. GREY said the farther consideration of this bil
should stand over until Thursday next.
THE GOVERNMENT ANNUITIES BILL.—STATE-
MENTS OF THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EX-
CHEQUER.

Mr. SHERIDAN drew the attention .of the house to
the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
in regard to the British Provident Society, which
he opined were quite unfounded. That society was estab-
li,ditd only eight years, and had regularly registered their
balance sheets. The action to which the right hon. gen-
tleman referred was not an issue sent to a jury, but merely
a question tried before the Court of Chancery between the
offi2ial manager and a shareholder, and there was no
foundation for the statement that the shareholders of
the society were cbliged to apply to the Court of Chancery
for protection for their policies. He vindicated himself from
personal allusions which had been made to him, and he
trusted ho should not again be called on to make any
further statement on this subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ha
would refer to the documents on which his statements had
been founded, and, if in error, be would
be prepared to cor-
rect himself.

THE STATE OF THE NAVY*
Mr. H. BERKELEY drew the sttentia of the house
to the defective state of the armament of °th''
said that au improvement had taken place irithe aavY.
He
dbt oildti
a theirng
of ships, but he could not say the same with regard
armament, which he contended was in a defective
He contrasted the superiority in this department ofa the.
Russian Russian and American nations, referring particularly to
the feats performed by the Alabama and of the Russians
during the Crimean war. He strongly condemned the
wholesale adoption of the Armstrong guns, and entered
into different details in illustration of his views.
TILE PRINCE CONSORT AND THE LIVELY.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE asked the Secretary to the Ad-
miraity the circumstances under which her Majesty's ship
the Prince Consort was ordered to Liverpool in November
last, the state of the ship when the orders reached Devon-
port, and various other particulars. The boa. baronet also
asked some questions relating to her Majesty's gunboat the
Lively, which had been ordered last November to the North
Sea, to relieve certain vessels which were blown about by
the heavy gales which prevailed at that time. The result
was what might be expected would befal a vessel so totally
unfit for performing such a duty as the Lively. He wished
to know who was responsible for the loss of this vessel, and
for sending the Prince Consort to Liverpool, when in an in-
complete state, by which she was put in jeopardy. He be-
lieved that both vessels were sent on those expeditions, the
one to oblige probably a member of Parliament, and the
other for the purpose of "bunkum," to show the Americans
that there was a determination to detain the steam rams.
(A laugh.)
CASE OF HENRY CARLETON THONIA.S.

Sir J, PAKINGTON called the attention of the house
the circumstances under which the Admiratty refused to

appoint Henry Carleton Thomas, now serving as a tempo•

rary clerk in Portsmouth Dockyard after 8 years' service in
tie same capciry at Malta, to a permanent clerk pon the
establishment at home; and asked the Secre to the
Admiralty whether the case might ba reconsil d.
FREN H ARTILLERY.
Mr. DAM ER asked wh.,ther there had • any trial in
this country at the French breech-loadinz: firing
SOlbs spherical shot and 601bs cylindrical shell, which have,

_ •
by French accounts, answered so well, piercing 41 inches of
iron at 1,000 yards.
MINISTERIAL REPLIES,

Lord C. PAGET, in reply to the last speaker, said that
there had been no trials in this country of the French gun
to which he alluded, and it was much up to doubt whether
the gun was so powerful as had been stated. In answer to
the right hon. gentleman the member for Droitwich (Sir
J. Pakington) he had to state that Mr. Thomas was tem-
porarily, and not continuously, employed in the High Court
of Admiralty at Malta. The Duke of Somerset was anxious
that he should be placed upon the establishment,and allowed
him to be examined by the Civil Service Commission. He
failed, however, in the test qualification, and,under these cir-
cumstances, the Duke of Somerset had no alternative but to
reject his application for a permanent clerkship. His grace
would have been glad if the rules had allowed him to place
Mr. Thomas on the establishment. As to the camplaints
raised by the hon. member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphin-
stone),yespecting the sendfieg out of the gunboat Lively, the
case Nos simply this—There was a fearful gale in the North
Sea; a large'r_kurnber of trawling- boats were missing,and a very
urgent application was made to the Admiralty to send a
vessel to save the liveg of the crews. The only vessels then
in readiness were the Medtoa, a fair-sized paddle-steamer
and two gunboats. The application proceeded from the cor-
poration of Hull, and he believed some other borough in the
north ; and what, he would ask, would hon. members have
said if the Admiralty had refused to send the ships ? Well,
the ships were sent out, and the gunboat Lively, when near
the coast of Holland, was caught in a severe gale, which
carried away her foremast, and she was lost. The sending
out of these vessels had been brought forward as a grave
accusation against the Admiralty ; but he need only say that
the step was taken at the desire of the Duke of Somerset,
who was willing to accept the whole responsibility of it. He
need not allude particularly to the circumstance which in-
duced the Admiralty to require the services of the Prince
Consort. Reports were in circulation that certain vessels in
the Mersey were about to put to sea, and the Prince Con-
sort was sent to prevent their doing so, Unfortunately, the
moment she left Devonport there came on a gale, and, in
running up the Irish Channel, she was met by one of the
heaviest gales which had occurred for many years. The
vessel rolled; but that was a peculiarity of armour ships.
In the Race of Holyhead she shipped a good deal of water,
and the officers were afraid to put into Holyhead. By this
time the water was over the engine-room door, and the cap-
tain, finding he could not bear up for Holyhead, ran for
Dublin. For a certain time the vessel lay to and did not take
in a drop water, but when she was again forced against the
sea she again shipped a great deal, and when they arrived
at Dublin they were extremely glad to get their anchors
down. Now, in armour ships they did not like to make holes
in the armour plates, and consequently the scuppers were
net of the ordinary kind, and the consequence wag there was
no free exit for the water. In fact, it was an experiment,
which failed. When the vessel returned he examined her
himself, and it was plain there had been no strain, as was
in the first instance conjectured, and literally the damage
done to the vessel in the gale was under £l,OOO. She was
afterwards put into dock, and a considerable sum of money
was expended upon her, which, however, had nothing
whatever to do with the accident, but had reference to the
prevention of galvanic action between the copper bottom
and the armour plating. As to the question put by the hon.
member for Bristol (Mr. H. Berkeley), it would lead the
house to believe that for some time past the Americans had
armed their ships more efficiently than we had. The hon.
gentleman, however, was entirely mistaken, for we had had
for a great number of years past shells for every kind of
broadside gun in our navy. In that respect we had not
been behind the Americans, although they certainly had
placed more reliance than we did on guns adapted for shells
only. Tho Americans attached great importance to what
they call "smashing efficts"—(a laugh)—and did not attri-
bute great importance to a very high initial velocity. We,
on the contrary, had always attached great importance to
guns of great range. On introducing the navy estimates, he
had stated that the Admiralty were not satisfied with the
100-pounder Armstrong gun, but let it not be supposed that
they condemned it m tote. In the attack on Kagosima a
100-pounder was used on board the flag-ship, and the com-
plaints were that the vent-pieces blew out ; and, what was
worse, in one instance the vent-piece jammed, and conse-
quently the gun was rendered hors de combat. But, at the
same time, it was stated that the precision of these guns
and the precision of the bursting of the shells was some-
thing marvellous. On board some of the ships, however,
they did not report so favourably. After carefully reading
the whole of the reports, he felt
.disposed to admit that
there were great defects in the guns, though he could not
conceal from himself that they also possessed great merits.
However, under the circumstances, not being satisfied
with the position of suattera, the Duke of Somerset ap-
plied to Lord Herbert for a good and simple smooth-bore
gun for the use of the navy. He proposed that the gun
should be limited to 61 tone, as the Admiralty considered
that that was the limit which a seagoing ship should carry
as a broadside. In reply, the War Office told them they
could give the navy a 9-inch gun, smooth-bore, carrying
spherical shot weighing 110 pounds. No doubt they were
satisfied with that guu for a time, for it pierced si-inch
plates; and accordingly a requisition was made to the War
Office for a supply of them, in order to arm the navy. Still,
not being ultimately satisfied, they decided upon arming the
Minotaur and Bellerophon experimentally with 300-poun-
ders, weighing 12 tons, and carrying spherical shot of 150
pounds. Honourable gentlemen might say that Parrott's
and Brook's guns were both superior to those adopted by
the Admiralty. Well, he was not prepared to say whether
they were or not. As regarded America, his honest
opinion was that neither country could say which had had
the best of it in the matter of guns ; but, as regarded France,
his belief was that they were more advanced than France.
However, with respect to America, they had been enabled
to send out a very intelligent cfficer, who would be afforded
the opportunity of looking through their factories, and
ascertaining what gun they preferred. At the same time,
notwithstanding all that had been said out of doors, he very
much doubted whether any country was more advanced
than they were in the matter of their artillery.

General PEEL could not admit that the War Department
should be made responsible for the arming of the navy ; it
was for the navy to decide for themselves what was the best
gun to be adopted. He declared the 12 •pounder Armstrong
to be the best field gun in the world, and that the 40-poun-
der Armstrongs were equally satisfactory. He, however,
blamed the War Department for having ordered so many
as 500 of the 110-pounders, without sufficient inquiry as to
he value of the gun.

3.ord LOVAISTE, reverting to the case of Mr. Thomas,
complained that it was very hard that that gentleman's
promotion should have been interfered with, after a
continuous service of eight years in one deprtment.
_ _

Sir F. BARING argued that when a temporary clerk had
been employed in a department for a number of years, and
his superiors reported satisfactorily of him, he ought not to
be subjected to any further test in order to entitle him to
promotion. (Hear, hear.) After all, the proof of the pud-
ding was in the eating.
Sir F. SMITH, having been a member of the ordnance
select committee, could state that the committee had not
been able to get.guns from Mr. Whitworth wherewith to
make the necessary experiments. He also declared that the
Armstrong guns had not produced the effects hoped for, and
they had no guns of a large calibre on which they could rely.
He thought the 110-pounders mi_,,ht prove a very useful
xun if they could be made sufficiently safe.
THE ECCLESIAS TICAL COURTS.

In reply to Mr. H. SEYMOUR,
Sir G. GREY said the Government had no hopes of being
able to introduce a measure for the reform of the ecclesias-
tical courts daring the present session ; but the Lord Chan-
cellor did hope to bring in a bill for the reform of the
registries.

The house then went into committee of supply on the
NAVY ESTIMATES.

The first vote was for a sum of £1,275,316, to defray the
wages of artificers in her Majesty's establishments at home,
The vote was put and passed sub silottict. However,
On the next vote, which was for a sum of £69,205, to de-
fray the wages of artiti;ers abroad,
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY rose, and complained that the
last vote had been put without almost any one being aware of
it, and that the civil lord (Mr. Stansfeld) had not made hie
promised statement accounting for the increase in the vote.
Mr. LINDSAY moved that the chairman report pro-
gress, as the vote had been taken without the fulfilment
of the distinct pledge given by the Government that full
explanations would be previously made.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE seconded the amendment.
Mr. MA.SSEY said he had put the vote in the usual way.
Unless it was desirous to move the reduction of the vote, it
would be competent for the civil lord to make whatever ex-
planations were necessary upon the amendment now before

the commit'ee.
Sir J. PAXINGTON did not attribute any blame to the
chairman, but was surprised at the rapidity with which that
vote had been placed in his hands. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER regretted
that a miscarriage had occurred, and suggested that the vote
should be recommitted on a future evening, and considered
in the usual way.
Mr. BRIGHT—This is not what has been called a mis-
carriage. It seems to me to have very much the appearance
of a trick. (Hear, hear,) Ido not know wh) is guilty of
it, but I do not think the hon member fur Halifax would, on
his own mere notion, have taken the course which has been
taken. My hon. friend and I were in our places, and yet
this million of money was slipped through without our
noticing it, although the lion member was understood to be
ready to begin his speech. Certainly there is in this some-
thing very insulting to the house ; and although there may
Le some difficulty, I do not think the proper way will be to
report progress, and take the discussion of
the vote on a
a Government future evening. The last thing should do is
to take advantage of the house on a question of money and
a vote of this kind. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words with Mr. WILLIAMS,
Mr. LINDSAY said he must press his motioll to report

THE SITN, LO

progress, inasmuch as it would bring the house back to the
position it was in when vote No. 8 was taken.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. member for Birmingham had made use of language
which he thought was not easily justified. The hon. mem-
ber, he thought, should not make use of the terms " trick "
and " insniti.•,g to the house," when a misfortune or
mistake occurred, unless he were prepared to say to wham
he applied these terms. After what had passed he would
not proceed with the navy estimates that night, but it was
necessary that the vote should be passed in order to obtain
the Act of Appropriation, which must be agreed to before
the Easter recess. (No, no.)
After a brief conversation, the motion for reporting pro-

gress was withdrawn, on the understanding that no more
votes on the navy estimates should be taken that night, and
that vote No. 8 should on a subsequent evening be recom-
mitted. with a view of hearing Mr. Stansfeld's statement,
and fur discussion on it.
THE SCHELDT DUES.

Mr. F. PEEL moved a vote of £179,000 for the redemp-
tion of the Scheldt toll. A treaty had been made by the
Powers of Europe, but more especially between Holland
and Belgium, for the purpose of relieving vessels navigating
the Scheldt from the tolls, and a sum equal to £1,450 was
paid by Belgium, she receiving from the different countries
of Europe about £900,000 according to their relative inte-
rests in the navigation of the Scheldt, as represented by
their respective amounts of shipping on that river. By a
treaty of 1839 the Belgian Government undertook to pay
the toll itself, and to reimburse the Government of Holland
in the same manner as if it had the toll on the vessels going
up. ,This arrangement had continued in force , but for some
time past Belgium had complained of the increasing sum
annually required to satisfy Holland, and had represented
that if this continued she must leave other countries to
pay the toll fer themselves. The tolls had increased from
1,449,000 f in 1856 to 2,176,000 f in 1861, which was the last
year of which he had any returns. The amount of toll charged
for British vessels had increased in the same proportion, and
from 200,000 f in 1851, had risen to 536,000 f in 1837, and
668,000 f in 1861. 'l'he share which this country was to
contribute was £350,000 or thereabouts. Belgium having
to pay these dues for foreign ships, had compensated herself
by levying heavy tonnage and pilotage dues. In considera-
tion, however, of the Scheldt dues being redeemed, she had
consented to ',remit the tonnage dues altogether, and to
greatly reduce the pilotage and harbour dues in her ports'
The direct relief afforded by these deductions and remis .
sions provided for in the treaty of commerce would be
£5,000 a year. It was proposed that, of the amount to be
paid by England, one moiety should be paid during the
present year, and one moiety in the second year.
Mr. A. SMITH asked for certain explanations in
regard to the Scheldt dues, and replies were given by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The vote was then agreed to.

The Marquis of lIARTINGTON then brought in a sup-
plemental army estimate for army services for the year
1863.4, The principal item in it was one of £119,892 for
disallowances made by the India Office in respect to troops
serving in India from the year 1854 to 1861. In the latter
year the payment of a capitation allowance on our troops
serving iu that country commenced; and from that period
there would, he believed, be no difficulty in settling the
accounts of each year within the year. Previously it was,
however, impossibls to close the accounts within the year.
A sum of £401,000 had been received from the India Board
in settlement for past claims against them in respect to the
army, but it was impossible for the War Office to take credit
for this, and it was necessary to take a vote for the £119,000
with which we were debited. The war in New Zealand had
been the cause of nearly the whole of the remainder of the
vote, which amounted altogether to £109,000. This was due
to the increase in pay and regimental allowances to the
troops serving there ; to extensive purchases of horses for
the cavalry and military train; and to heavy commissariat
expenses, caused by the high price of provisions and the
large sums which had to be paid for lodging the troops and
for providing storehouses. The noble marquis then moved
the vote of £409,000.

Mr, WILLIAMS commented upon the expense entailed
upon this country by founding colonies, for the establish-
ment of which it was requisite to take the property of savage

tribes

Sir H. WII LOUGHBY asked if they were to understand
that the accounts between the War Office and the India
Office were now finally closed ?
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said that they were
closed up to the year 1861. The sum included in the esti-
mates of the present year which was due to the war in New
Zealand was about £300,000.
The supplemental vote of £409,000 was then agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS.
In committee of ways and means,

Mr. PEEL moved the following resolutions :-1. That,
towards making good the supply granted to her Majesty,
for the service of the year ending March 31, 1861, tho sum
of £584,650 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. 2. That,
towards making good the supply granted to her Majesty,
the sum of £1,500,000 be granted out of the Consolidated
Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
The resolutions were agreed to.
THE MUTINY BILL.

The house then went into committee on this bill.
Clauses 1 to 21 inclusive were agreed to.
On clause 22, which sanctioned the infliction of the
punishment of flogging,
Mr. COX moved the omiss'on of the clause. He believed
that this punishment was brutal and demoralising. Nor was
it necessary for the maintenance of discipline. For the dis-
cipline of the French and Austrian artnif s was quite as god
as that of our own ; and yet in neither of these armies was
there any corporal punishment. Certainly, if it is resorted
to at all, it should only be for serious offences. But the
fact is that men were now flogged for the most trivial
offences. In one instance during the last year a man re-
ceived 40 stripes for the use of bad language. Why, if
every member of that house who used bad language were
to be flogged, how many of them would escape corporal
punishment ? (Laughter.) While a civilian who corn •
mitted a theft was only punished with imprisonment, a
soldier was subjected to lashes inflicting marks upon him
for life, This ought not to be. The infliction of this pun-
ishment was an outrage upon our c vilisation and our
Christianity; and it was utterly inconsistent with the sup-
port which we gave to the Northern States of America for
relieving the negro from the lash, or with the indignation
which we poured out upon Russia for the use of the knout.
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the motion. It was dis-
graceful to allow the infliction of this punishment upon
men whom we regarded as the pride and honour of the
country, He thought the committee would be doing a thing
highly creditable in assenting to the motion of the hon.
gentleman.
Mr, AYRTON observed that at one time as many as
2,000 lashes wore inflicted upon the soldier, and when pro-
posals were made for a diminution of the number the same
arguments were resorted to in support of corporal punish-
meat that were heard to-day. But the maxim number of
lashes had been since reduced to fifty, and yet the charac-
ter and discipline of the British army had suffered no detri-
ment in consequence. In India flogging was not allowed
in the native army, and the native soldier was in the bait
of pointing with scorn at the English soldier, because he
was subjected to the lash, which was a state of things that
ought never to exist in that country.
Mr. WHITE also supported the amendment,
The Marquis of HARTINGTON reminded the house

that the British army was largely recruited from the most
degraded classes of the community,and said unless a soldier
had proved himself a man of incorrigibly bad character he
was never subjected to the lash. The total number of such
punishments in the army had materially decreased within
the last few years.
Mr. BASS suggested a remedy that the bad characters
in the army should be got rid of without flogging, and not
flogged first and dismissed afterwards.
Major STUART, whilst expressing dislike of the use of

the lash, was of opinion that there were many cases, which
he indicated, in which no other punishment would be
sufficient.

Mr. COX having briefly replied,
The committee divided, and the amendment was nega,

tived by 45 to 42. The clause was then agreed to.
Mr. COX neat moved the omission of clause 2G, relating
to the punishment of branding, which he denounced as even
a more brutal and degrading punishment than flogging.
The proposal led to a warm and animated discussion, in
the course of which Mr. HE ADLAM (she Judge Advocate
General) said that whatever sympathy he might havo with
the gentlemen who had spoken against flogging, ho could
not help thinking that a good deal of zeal and humane sen-
timent had been wasted in reference to branding, for the
fact was that it inflicted little or no oair at all. It was re-
sorted to in consequence of men of bad character on being
dismissed from one regiment enlisting into another for the
sake of the bounty money. He considered, therefore, that
the punishment was necessary and indispensable.
Mr. BRIGHT observed that almost the only other coun-
try in which branding was practised was the slave States of
America, and there the negro was marked with the name
of his owner. He warned the house that this country was
approaching a revolution in regard to labour, in consequence
of the extent to which emigratioU was being carried on.
The demand for labour was even now overrunning the sup-
ply, Wages would probably rise very much, even in the
agricultural districts, and that being the case they would
by and bye find greater difficulty in recruiting the army
than at the present moment. To maintain our Indian army
alone 10,000 recruits were required annually; and he should
recommend that the army should be made as little distaste-
ful and as honourable as possible to those who took service
in it.

Colonel KNOX said there were men in the army whom
it was impossible to control without having recourse to the
most coercive measures. So far as branding was concerned
it was resorted to to protect the State from a fraudulent
transaction.
Captain JERVIS stated that there were very many offi-
cers opposed to the infliction of these punishments, unless
for cowardice or misconduct in the face of the enemy; and
he himself would bo glad to dispense with them, provided
an equally efficacious substitute could be found, and the
House of Commons would vote a sum of money equivalent
to the amount which the reenlistment of deserters would
be sure to entail upon the country.
The CIIANCI4I4OII, of SW LXCHLRITER comi-