The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-04 00:00:00

bute to the naval force suddenly available. There were at
Toulon seven ships of the line frilly manned by 6,000 men.
It would be the height of rashness to send those crews round
by sea, but they might be conveyed overland complete. By
»ending their crews overland, the whole of the French navy
in reserve might be directed against our shores. But the
main advantage was in the difference of the distribution of
the French navy as compared with that of England.
This country had most important colonial and mercantile
interests to protect, while those of France were compara-
tively small. The consequence was, that the greater part
of the navy of France was on the shores of France, at the
command of her Government, while the greater part of the
English navy was out of reach, and was unable to give us
any assistance in case of attack upon our shores. (Hear,
hear.) _On the Ist of January, 1852, the distribution of
the naval force cf the two countries was as follows
England had 138 seaegoing ships in commission,exclusive of
packets, with 33,000 men afloat. The French had 137 ships
and 25,000 men. The English ships upon fbreign stations
were 108, with 21,000 men; while the French had, inclod-
ing the Levant, only 57 ships abroad, with 7,000 men.
England, had at home, includ;nz, the Lisbon squadron,
ordered home, 30 shi-:s, with 19,000 men, if their comple-
ments were full, while. the French bad at home, including
the Toulon divhion, 70 ships, with 18,000 men. Toe real
criteri,in was the arn4unt of actu:el force, and the proportioa
was as 33 to 25 betweel England and Franc., but the pro-
portion abroad was as 21 to 7, while in the force at home it
wt as 12 to 18. So that while the total force of
was oss.e-quatter mote than that of Prance, we had abroad
itrlacei
ihtosuei nniete. • - -st
teiheTaota, ,rdeohstel
tbahrl
e.:
three trnies •as great a force, but only two-thirds as great a
gand
member
mob?, rsr,
amen
se ptso
orebro 1
rithiamT6° House would observe
stations. This arose from our sending the greater part of
fign
to
jfao
1.7 foreign ns shti aptshanin sd,
owhile' rtghee • sFhri French 1 s sailing;retained a n 1
hset eWuhno- easels,of their
steamers for the hems station. The French had not a siogie
'elriP of the line, nor a Single steam-frigate, nor even a tast-
eless steam corvette abroad. The largest steam-vessel which
France had upon a foreign station was the smallest class of
corvettes, of which she had only six abroad. England, on
the contrary, maintained the greater part of her most power-
' ful steam-frigates and steam-corvettes abroad. France had
two steam line-of-battle ships, 11 steam-frigates, and 19
corvettes, making 32 in commission, of which only six cor-
vettes were abroad. England had three steam line-of-
battle ships, 12 frigates, and 28 corvettes in commission,
of which only 14 were at home, and 29 abroad. Of the lat-
ter there were one of 800 horse-power, one of 650, four from
500 to 600, seven from 409 to 500, five from 300 to 400,
eleven from 200 to 300 horse-power. Excluding packets,
England had in commission 64 steamers of 18,900 horse-
power, while France had 77 steamers of 17,500 horse-power.
Of steamers ready for commission, England had 31 of 10,500
horse-power, while France had 30 steamers of 82,000
horse-power. The total number of ships in commission and
.ready was, in England, 95, with 29,400 horse-power; and
in France, 107, with 25,700 horse-power. But England had
abroad 47 steamers of 13,300 horse-power, while France
had only 21 steamers of 3,000 horse-power. En ;land
had at home, including the Lisbon squadron, 17 of
5,634 horse-power; while France had no less than 56 of
14,400 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) The merchant steam
navy had been spoken of as useful for the defence of the
country, but when war broke out, if the Government
took a North American, or West Indian, or Mediterra-
nean steamer, how could a communication be kept up
between England and her colonies?—.(Hear, hear.) The
French also, under their maritime system, could man their
navy with greater facility than we could man ours, and
had a large reserve of sailors, well trained, available to be
called upon at any time to serve in the navy. By the last
French register, after deducting the men in the navy in
the merchant service, there were 45,000 liable to be re-
quired of whom about one-half had already served a term of
four years; but we, with a registry of 210.000 seamen, found
it difficult to raise 30,000 men, and all untrained; whereas
the French had enough trained to man the whole reserve.
Under these circumstances it was obvious that we ought not
to trust our national defence exclusively to our navy, and
therefore he was anxious to support this Bill. As to our
land force, his Right Hen. Friend the Member for Wilts had
the other night demolished its supposed efficiency; for it
turned out, that instead of having an army of 103,000, or
even 60,000, we had only somewhere about 20,000 ; and
when Hon. Gentlemen talked of the military defence of our
shores, and our mercantile marine, they should recollect it
was impossible for merchant steamers, our dockyard batta-
lions, or our Royal Marines, to be in two places at once.
The dockyard men were very valuable for the local defence
of our dockyards; but they could not be removed from the
dockyard to the field—(Hear, hear)—and it was the same
with the coast-guard. They would be required for the re-
venue purposes, and, therefore, the steamers could not be
manned with them. The Hon. Member for Westminster claimed
the marines as an auxiliary to the army; but if a war took
place, so far from the marines going to increase the army
we should have 3,000 less, because they would be required
for our ships. For these reasons he thought we ought to
have a Militia Bill, and he preferred that mode, because if
the regular army were increased, after two or three years
passed over it would be reduced; and, secondly, because,
although militiamen might not, in the first instance, he fit
to be trusted in the field, they would take off a great deal of
garrison duty from the regular troops, and leave a larger
number, therefore, for actual service. He trusted, however,
that if this increase of force were agreed to, the Govern-
ment would not relax in their regard for naval defences,
which must be considered as the most important. Upon
that part of the question he, to a certain extent, agreed
with the Hon. Member for the West Riding. lie thought a
great addition might be made to our home squadron,
not so much by reducing the number of ships on foreign
stations as by reducing th force on those stations.—( Hear.)
On some stations steamers of 100 horse power would do as
well as those of 800—( Hear)—for it had happened that in all
our operations since steam was introduced into the navy all
the work had been done by small steamers —(Hear, hear.)
It was s in China, Parana, Burmah, and the other day at
Lagos. He thought we ought to maintain a large squadron
on the home station, and that it was a strange arrangement
that British interests in all parts of the world should be pro-
tected, and those at home neglected. lie hoped, therefore,
the Government would maintain on the home station a re-
spectable squadron. As to the question of national defence,
none could be more important. In that respect he was a com-
plete Protectionist, and he trusted the Government would not
be deterred by any consideration from adopting such measures
as they might think necessary to secure the defence of our
shores.

Mr. CARTER (who, it will be observed, took the oaths
and his seat in the early part of the evening) said, he should
not have so soon addressed the House had it not been that
the session was likely to be so short that he might not have
many chances of speaking.—(LaughNr.) It seemed to him
that the speeches of the two Hon. Gentlemen who had spoken
were no answers to the motion for returns of our naval forces ;
and, indeed, went rather to support it, for they went to show
that the greater part of our naval forces were abroad, and the
obvious inference was that they ought to be brought home.
He certainly did not think the mere fact of the Hon. Member
for the West Riding being a member of the Peace Society a
bar to his forming a just estimate of the position of our mili-
tary establishments. In conclusion, the lion. Member said
he rejoiced that up 'll this, the first occasion of addressing the
House, he Was enabled to, lift up his voice in favour of peace,
and in deprecation of that expensive system of armaments
which had se long oppressed the people of this country.
Captain BOLDERO said that the present motion pre.
tended one thing, but really meant another.—(Hear, hear.)
It was part of the political creed of the Hon. Member (Mr.
Cobden) to oppose all estimates, more particularly those
relating to the military defences of the country--(Hear,
hear)—and whatever might be the nature of the Militia
Bill, that Honourable Member would be found voting against
it. That part of the motion which asked for information as
to the present state of our defences was wholly superfluous.
The Navy List actually supplied all the information that
could be desired. Then, what was the real object of the mo-
tion? Delay. Even had the Government supplied the
required statistics, this motion would have been pressed by
Hon. Gentlemen, who, whilst they clamoured for a dissolue
tion, lost no. opportunity of obstructing public business
—(Hear, hear.) Such factious conduct, he thought, came
with a peculiarly bad grace from the Manchester school.—
(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman the Member for
bianchester. (Mr. M. Gibson) had, the other night, attempted
to fix a charge of inconsistency on the Noble Lord the
Member for London, inasmuch as that, in 1848, he advo-
cated an addition to our standing army, and he deprecated a
similar proceeding in 1852. But in 1848 we had 15,000 more
rank and file than in the beginning of 1852. He (Captain
Boldero) should prefer an addition to the army to having
recourse to the militia, and would adopt the plan suggested,or
by the Honourable and Gallant Officer the Member
Windsor (General Reid) for recruiting in advance!. It for
Windsor
been contended that France was making no mibta_rY pr.e-
parations They had 'recently learned, however,
French Government were augmenting .
the
chasstebuarts the d e
Vincennes by to the militiaervice to
thought that by limiting the term' of force he 7,000 men, and were, forming a local corps of
20,000 men in Algona. With regard five years'
three an advantage would accrnse.
A bounty of 61. or 71.
spread over the latter period would 'yield iel
and this would be felt q a boonuite yhytdhe aboutrural population.
nalawtieoank.,
He agreed with the. hianchesterSch(oHolearth, afrtotnihetrheewuasanno.
immediate cause of fear of invasion.--(
chester party.) The apprehension that existed was founded
on the political state. of France at this moment. And what
was the state cif France? An
unmitigated despotism, backed
by an army of hirelings.
Bat there was no danger of
.
Louis Napoleon invading our
_shores.e
would
oa he did,
ly notdeiede,urheodwever,
and we were only true to ourselves, he
succeed.—(Hear, hear.){
Mr. BRIGHT said, the Secretary to the Admiralty had
taken upon himself felLetr,Roirdiantg, all events
thestosneeerecautrtehtee
information h
lion. Member ,for the we
obtained about naval affairs.—(Hear.)
As the Secretary to the Admiralty had only been in office six
been_ previously_ known to be very pro-
-1
veveersrebdal:inmg naval affairs—(A laugh)—he scarcely
seemed n.
& position to assail the Member for the West Rill'
seemed 'a
Rid-
ing, who, at all events, had for three years been a close at-
tendant upont.h e Committee of that. House which had made
it a special business thoroughly to investigate and master
the
subjeoe—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who had
just spawn said that the object of this motion was delay;
but be contended that it was to place before the House exist-
ing
facts with regard to the means of defence, so that, hay.. ing them plainly before them, the House would be in a better
position to discuss the propriety of any further expenditure
for military purposes. He maintained that it was one of the
most important propositions that could
be submitted
to the House, for it involved this striking
circum-
stance, that it was intended nearly to double the num-
ber of persons who were connected with arms, and notwith-
standing that the preamble of the 42d
of
forth that a military force under the eorge 111. set
command of officers
possessing landed property within Great
tain was essen-
tial to the Constitution, he took the liberty of stating that all
military establishments beyond what could be shown to be
absolutely necessary were contrary to the Constitutionh and
to the spirit of representative institutio
He maintained that the the Gove
measure of Lear, hear.)
hostile to the industry of the country,and rnment was
st
whicihnjuwriooulsdton free-
doin, and that there was no interest
prejudiced by the establishment of a militia, unlessu it not
tuld
be proved to be absolutely necessary for the safety of the
country. He would discuss this question, however, only
upon, the principles of expediency and policy.
asked to spend 350,000/. more. They were
The 15,000,0001. already
voted loft us in a most insecure and perilous position, but
add this 350,000/. and we might rest satisfied that England
was safe from invasion.—(A laugh.) 353,000/. wee the
interest upon a principal sum of 12,000,0001., so that ,
having already invested 1,200,009,000/. of the property of
the country, this le,oooooo/. was to be added to make us
perfectly safe Before they could ask for this money they
were bound to show biro either that there was souse now
danger, or that there load been discovered some insecurity
of which Parliament had been hitherto ignorant. If there
were a new danger, where was it? The Noble Lord the
Member for London had himself dwelt on our peaceful rela-
tions with foreign countries, and the Noble Member
the
Tiverton, and the Right lion. Secretary of State_ feorsamh
Home Department, had been equally emphatic on the
Hon,
and Where, then, was the new all that,
and Learned Member for Sheffield had repudiatedreally did not
danger? The n
and intimated that those distinguished men
mean what they said—that it was a disguise—that the fact
' woe, that they -had- great -fears of an-attackfrora France,