The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-18 00:00:00

vernment, therefore, could very well affird to Risk?)
some r. cognition of the rights of conscience. He trussed
the House would listen to the dictates of jestice, and
not call upon that individual to do the daty of a soldier
to whom it refused the rights of a citizen.—(Hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE said the Hon. Gentleman had ad-
vocated
his proviso oa two groirnd,-; the first, that
everybody compelled to serve in the militia should have
the rigtes of citizenship extended to him, and the se-
cond that there were certain persons who objected to
military service altogether, and who would, therefore, be
injured by the operation of this Bill. With regard to
the first, whether the rights of citizenship should be
conferred on those who were required to serve in the
militia, that was too largo a question to be discussed on
that Bill. It could only be discussed as part of a large
measure which embraced all points connected with the
circumstances under which persons should serve—what
regulations they should be under—what their occupa-
tions. and whether having so served they should be en-
titled to have a vote for the county. But the way in
which the Hon. Gentlemen had worded his proviso pat
it criito out of the power of the Committee to admit it,
e.s if admitted it could only be as part of a more ex-
tended measure. The effect of such a clause would be
to narrow the basis of the militia very materially, and
to throw the pressure on particular classes. Tnis was
so serious a matter that it could not be entertained for
a moment. Then, as to the Honourable Gentleman's
second objection—that persons who conscientiously
ohjected to servo would decline to serve, and would
thereby lose their rights of citizenship. But he appre-
hended there was a much graver question mooted in the
last matter. For if it was to be considered a good ob-
jection that persons were to be excused who had a re-
ligious objection to military service—then they ought
to be disposed to extend the principle, and say, " We will
not contribute our services personally, and we will refuse
to pay towards getting others to do that which on con-
scientious grounds we decline to do." If conscientioua'
scruples were to be admitted, they would be equally
urged with equal force, whether as respected person or
purse. The question was so much larger than was in-
tended by the proviso, and as the effect of it would be
to narrow the basis of the militia to the great injury of
the country, he felt convinced the House would refuse to
adopt it.
Mr. MO WATT was not surprised at the anxiety felt
by the Government to shtfile by any means through the
Bill.—(Hear, hear, and Ohl) He acquitted the Hon.
Gentleman opposite of having originated such a mass of
contradictions and absurdities as were contained within
the four corners of the Act. He should like Govern-
ment to explain why Ireland was excluded from the Bill.
He could not fancy the reason why the Government had
not thought tight to trust the people of Ireland with
arms in time of peace; but why Scotland, also, had been
excluded, he could not understand. For such a trum-
pery measure of defence as the present, it was not worth
while to incite the popular hatred against the very name
of a militia. The only persons who would enrol them-
selves in the proposed militia would belong to the dan-
gerous classes, and they would be found good for little
or nothing. The Bill was disgraceful not only to the
Government bat to the House; and he thought the Right
Hon. Secretary for the Home Department ought to re-
consider the proposed proviso, if he was sincere in saying
that he wished to obtain a class of men on whom de-
pendence could be placed.
The O'GORMAN MAHON said he only rose to pro-
test against the remark of the Lion. Member with re-
ference to Ireland. The Hon. Member had only re-
peated the unfair and illiberal assertion, which had from
time to time found its way into some of the newspapers
of the country. He could not understand upon what
grounds a proposition which had been originated by the
last Government, and supported by the present, could be
designated as odious and disgraceful. When the lion.
Member insinuated that Ireland had been omitted from
the measure because her Majesty could not trust the
Irish people with arms, he could only say that if her
Majesty was under that apprehension it must have arisen
from some misinformation from persons having the same
opinions as the lion. Member. The English nation
would do injustice to Ireland if they believed that every
man in Ireland would not rise in arms if' the country was
invaded.—(Hear, hear.) He thought they ought all to
endeavour to make a measure which had been declared
necessary for the common weal as perfect as possible.
Mr. MO WATT said the Hon. Member was mistaken
in supposing that he had spoken of her Majesty.
The O'GORMAN AARON'Her Majesty's Govern-
ment.
Mr. MOWATT said that the Hon. Member ought to
have addressed his complaint to the Government, for all
that he (Mr. Mowatt) bad stated was a wish that the
Government should state why they had thought the
people of Ireland could not be trusted with arms.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Hon.
Member who had just sat down had stated that the Go-
vernment were anxious to shuffle through this Bill. If
that were so there was no one so determined to disap-
point them as the lion. Member, for ho had done all
he could to prevent the clause being carried. The Hon.
Member had also stated that he was ashamed to be found
night after night taking part in the' discussion. The
remedy for that was so obvious that he was surprised
that the Hon. Member had not shown his sense of
shame by adopting it.—(A laugh.) With respect to the
proviso, he objected to it on the ground that it made a
most invidious distinction between different classes of
her Mjesty's subjects. Every subject was interested
in the defence of the nation, and yet the
proviso almost raised the inference that only
those persons entitled to vote for Members of
Parliament were interested in that defence. That
portion of the community entitled to the right of voting
wan surely not the least respectable part. According to
the Hon. Member for Falmouth, none but the lowest
vagabonds would enter the milit e, and yet the proposal
of the lion. Member for Oldham would comp:l many of
the respectable classes of the community to associate
themselves and serve with those vagabonds. He objected,
the rAxe, to the proposal on these sufficient grounds.
But he had another objection to it. A misapprehension
existed with regard to the rights of the subjects of this
country. There was a distinction between political and
civil rights. With a view to good government, certain
classes were entrusted with political rights, not granted
to others. All classes, however, were entitled to the
same civil rights; therefore all were tipsily interested in
the detente of those rights. The objection of his Right
Hon. Friend the Secretary of State that the proviso
would narrow the basis upon which the defence of the
country ought to rest, and that it would limit the number
of citizens who might be compelled to serve, was con-
clusive.—(llear.) He could scarcely understand the
reason put for ward by the Hon. Member for Oldham in
favour of his proviso on the ground of conscientious
scruples. Ho was the last person to object to well-
founded scruples, but he did not see how the proviso
would protect persons who had such scruples from being
called on to serve or find a substitute.

Mr. FOX explained, with reference to those persons
who conscientiously objected to the use of arms, that
his motion would so far protect them, for being on the
electoral list they might withdraw their name, and thus
avoid being c illrd on to serve.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL did not think •it
would be desirable or reasonable to allow persons to es-
cape from serving their country in that or any other
way. There were many who had conscientious objec-
tions to paying taxes, and thousands of objections might
be taken to the performance of duties which all classes
wore bound to fulfil. But, if these objections were to be
taken into account, every obligation might be frittered
away; and on these grounds he hoped the Committee
wooed not entertain the proviso.
Mr. HUME thought the proviso open to objection,
and suggested to his lion. Friend to alter it so as to pro-
vide that every person who should be drawn by ballot
and should serve in the militia should be entitled to
have his name entered on the list of Parliamentary elec-
tors in the borough cr county in which he resides. .
The O'GORMAN MAHON explained.
Mr. PACKE objected to the proviso of the Honour-
able Member for Oldham. The ballot would necessarily
be harsh under any circumstances, but that proviso
would increase its harshness tenfold.
Mr. FOX said he could not accede to the suggestion
of his Hun. Friend the Member for Montrose, because
he did not think that the fact of a person having been
engaged in the military service offered the best ground
for an extension of the franchise. He should not press
to a division the proviso he had moved after the opi-
nions which had been expressed on the subject by those
Hon. Members to whom he had looked for support.
Mr. M. GIBSON said he wished to ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Homo
Department whether he meant to give the Committee
an opportunity of considering his proposed list of ex-
emptions by bringing that list under their consideration.
Gibson) believed that the exemptions contained
in
be Found
42d of George 111., would not in many instances
Mr-
suitable at the present day.
M
x era
p. 0
nAgL PTOhLaEt
Isisati d
comprisedthat he would
Peers readwho the
were l
dis-
charging
i s tof
public
in
in the other House of Parliament;
opeurshoanlsf-spearvi;n
served four years in the
officers serving or having
other forces of the Crown; officers
geoneat"
universities; cleprgettycnaeb:nm;ainslpaieetairaisa;ornirnseasildieenentsmedenatboetpareeeacthhe;
constables and officers;. articled clerks and ap-
prentices; seamen and
em-
ployed in the dockyards gunwards of the Ordnance;
persons free of the Company atermen, and any
poor man who had more than eofch7lmdebriOrnpienrswonesdlock
not understand why a
and luteteblroanvlcellcieartsaiannlyy
Mr. M. GIBSON said he could
Peer should not purchase a substitute
atnexemption.
other member of the community,
Bat wlal
take the sense of the Committee against that
o
It was also proposed that every poor
more than one child should be exempted.ehad
Gibson) wished to know who was to be considered a
poor man?
Sir C. BIIII,RELL—A day labourer.
Mr. M. GIBSON continued—lt appeared that water-
men were also to be exempted. But watermen had been
superseded by the engineersand other persons employed
in steamers; and it was to that latter class rather than
to watermen that any such favour ought to be granted.
There was to be a further exemption on behalf of
resident members of the universities. But he could not
understand why persons who resided in the universiti
should
for their own amusement, as sometimes happened, r
not be obliged to purchase substitutes. He should also
observe that he could not see why that exemption should
be confined to members of the universities of Oxford Hon.
Cambridge. Ho would sugget to the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment the propriety of reconsidering the whole of that
subject, and embodying his views with respect to it in a
separate clause.
Mr. WALPOLE said that any Hon. Member who
mibghetohjettotheproposal of the
amGpolve opportunity
nointyth:
subject of exemption would have f
bringing forward any amendment he might think
proper.
Mr. BRIGHT said, ho did not see why medical men
5149414 act be el"WPteas as be believed thane was no

THE SUN,