The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-10 00:00:00

vonrable to a large extension of the suffrage should make
their election b tween the Noble Lord's plan and their own.
It was not a compromise that Was proposed to them, but
an intalment that was offered. And the Noble Lord dis-
tinctly pointed to the time when it might be in the power of
the MiLi,ter to propose and of the Parliament to agree to a
mea:nre of further reform. The measure now brought for-
' ; ward was not proposed as a final measure, but as the only
measure that the circumstances (:f the country and of the
hour warrante,l the Noble Lord in hoping would receive the
approbation of Parliament. In agreeing to the present Bill,
there was nothing, therefore, to preclude its supporters from
giving their votes hereafter to a scheme for triennial Par-
liaments and household suffrage. The ballot was necessary
to protect the voter against intimidation, whether exercised
by customers over shopkeepers or by meddling Roman Ca-
tholic pries*s over members of their flock. The proposed
conglomeration of small boroughs in Ireland was a wise
measure. It was also properly proposed to undo the compro-
mise into which the House entered with the House of Lords
last year, and by which the franchise for Irish boroughs was
fixed at 8/. The Noble Lord's plan, however, was defective as
regarded the counties of Ireland. At present those counties
possessed no more than a fair number of voters, but when the
small towns should be withdrawn from the counties and ag-
gregated to the boroughs, the constituencies in many counties
would be reduced one-half, and thrown more than ever into the
hands of proprietors, in whose families the representation
was vested and transmitted as a heritage from father to
son. Of that part of the Bill which related not so much to
P
yforamppraosvteod.theongrtehaet
wquheosleti,onthoef
Breillilgwiouass
support of the friends of Parliamentary libertyentitledm hteeon tcao
theryd i arlel
re-
form, and he was clad to see that the =embers of the
country party were disposed to remember the old conditions
of that party, and to vie with the Noble Lori in the race of
reform.
Mr. TRELAWNY rose and begged to vithdraw an ex-
pression which he had inadvertently used with respect to the
Hon. Member for Inverness...shire.
Sir J. TYRELL observed, that the friends of reform
seemed to find it very difficult to define the principle of the
proposed Bill. Now, he ventured to suggest that if it were
entitled " a Bill for the, continuance of Ler Majesty's pre-
sent Ministers in office," it would not be a bad definition of
its object at least.—(Hear, and laughter.) If one might
judge by the declarations of those who called themselves the
friends of reform, the measure was not likely to give general
satisfaction. The Hon. Member for Bolton denounced it in
toto, whilst the Hon. and Learned Msmber for Youghal
was dissatisfied because it did not substitute the ballot-box
for the confession-box. As far as he could form an opinion
of the measure from the Noble Lord's statement, it appeared
As regarded Essex, in
Bill Was a very harmless
to
which b e
measurerather
ll ainr
dw
indeed.
ee
dhm waslk. milk
Still, a n water
situated,
the
mat affair. B
eh
a si
ur . r e
was
not likely to give
satisfaction to the country generally,
he should feel himself
at liberty to oppose it. The fact wae, as every one knew, the
Noble Lord had brought forward a canvassing measure in
order to keep himself in office, and then, doubting its suc-
cess, at the close of his speech he endeavoured to ingratiate
himself with the Manchester school on the subject of educa-
tion, by the way of throwing out one anchor to windward in
the event of the Government being displaced.
Colonel SIBTHORP claimed credit for having suggested
the 501. clause, which the Marquis of Chandos subsequently
adopted and carried.—(Hear, hear.) He had the honour of
I a seat in the House when the Noble Lord brought forward
the Reform Bill, which was announced to be a final measure.
Now the Noble Lord proposed another Reform Bill, on the
principle of " any port in a storm, and the stress he was
driven to was evident from the very dirty port in which he
I understand, prevails as
period of his official exisand his
had condescended to take refuge
Thefor
isthTeehlberiLeferrdemaining
colleagues had resorted to every species of trick to keep
Lord purposes to move the
themselves in office, but they would soon meet their reward.
Mr W. 0. STANLEY was understood to express his ap-
probation of the measure.
hto tlhre. DtilinSße AntEwLhl
second reading of the Bill. I was, unfortunately, not in the
House when the Noble Lord referred to this subject, but I
understand that the Bill is not ready to be laid upon the '
table. It is customary when a statement of importance,
such as that which the Noble Lord has this evening made,
rchSethmee Noble doubt,
is addressed to the House,
that the Bill on which it pro-
fesses to be founded should be laid on the table at the same
time—(Hear, hear)—but I understand it is the intention
of the Noble Lord not to bring in the Bill until Wednesday •
next.

Lord J. RUSSELL—I will bring in the Bill on Wednes-
day, or, it may be, Thursday. I will then propose that it be
was
veryave the
no
read a second time on Friday fortnight.
Mr. DISRAELI—The Noble Lord's explanation is not
satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) It seems to meimpossible
ckoannsds.
i de r
Theth i s
Noblequestion
rpdr,oaperl
to
doubt, but, before coming to a definite opinion on the subject
it is a necessary preliminary that we should have the Bill
before us. The time to be allowed for the consideration
of the question must of course date from the moment
when the Bill shall be laid on the table. I think a fortnight,
at this period of the session, is not a sufficient time. Sixty-
seven boroughs are to be dealt with, and certain towns are
until
statement til
we have
to be connected with them. The inhabitants of these towns
ought to have an opportunity of making known their views
and feelings on the subject. I believe that much more cone
siderable time than the Noble Lord now proposes to grant
was given when the first Reform Bill was introduced. When
Sir R. Peel introduced the Bill for the repeal of the corn-laws
in P,46, he proposed that more than a fortnight should
elapse before the second reading, in order to allow the
country to express its opinion on the measure. The House
should recollect that not we alone, but the country, should
be allowed a full and fair opportunity of becoming acquainted
with this important measure. In point of detail the Bill
for the repeal of the corn-laws can bear no comparison with
the measure which the Noble Lord has sketched, but which
he is not prepared to lay on the table of the House.— (Hear,
hear.) Even if the Bill were ready to be produced, I think
a month should elapse before the proposal of the second
reading. I say again this time is necessary, not for us, but
for the country—for those who are to be affected by the
Bill. No measure of this kind ever gave content unless it
were accompanied with the power of investigation, and it
may be of rejection. It is a most unsual thing for a Mi-
nister to come forward and make a statement of importance,
introductory of a Bill, without being able to produce the Bill
itself.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") I would object to this
course of proceeding, even if I assumed that the Bill was
delayed by some mere technicality, and that, after the seven-
teen or twenty-seven Cabinet Councils which have been held,
Ministers have_ really made up their minds on the question.
—(A laugh.) But when we know that Ministers continue
to meet daily the case assumes a very different aspect. The
Bill, when produced, may be invested with a great many
details which the Noble Lord has it not in his power to com-
municate to us.—(Hear, hear.)
~ If when the Bill is laid
upon the table we find in it anything which may not agree
with, or be additional to the statement we have been fa-
voured with to-night, that would be a reason for a longer in-
terval between the first and second reading than the Noble
Lord proposes. Considering the importance of the question
—considering that the Minister himself has not
made up his mind, apparently, to the details of
his own measure, I do
not, I think, ask too
much in demanding a longer time for a consideration. I
think it is much better that we should have a month, and
that is not a great deal more than three Parliamentary
weeks, to enable the country to make itself acquainted with
the measure. So far as lam concerned, I sin not disposed
for discussion on the present occasion. I cannot, however,
help congratulating the Parliamentary reformers on the con-
tent with which they seem to have Ic accepted the measure of
the Noble Lord.—(A laugh.) It doesee appear to me, how-
ever, that those gentlemen have shownthem selves satisfied
with very short commons.—(A laugh.) So far as I have
been able to form an opinion, I
must confess that it does
appear that the Noble Lord has, on the
w , one occasion laid down
in this House. My impression is, that there is nothing in
the scheme, as it has been explained to-night, which has a
tendency to disturb, I will not say the balance between the
two great interests of the countrY, but the adjustment that
was made at the time of the Reform Bill of 1832.—( Hear,
hear.) Ido not use the word bthaleanncee'w.' becauseproe
think that balance exists; 1 think
there is a preponderance
in favour of the town and commercial classes in the ad-
justment as then made; but I do not think, so far as I
can form an opinion from merely listening to the oral
serious tendency to disturb
and therefor*
adjustment;
on that ground I feel I 2
-M
considerably relieved.—(Hear,
statement of the Minister,
.that‘‘
he At the same time, I tell the Hon. Member for
Blanchester that I cannot at all agree with his dogma that
the existing adjustment is at all destroyed by boroughs like
Ih
has anynot
Thetford returning two Members and cities like Manchester
returning only two Members. Throu
hout the whole of,the
arguments I have heard on this subject from Gentlemen op-
posite, both here and as reported • m other places, a great fal-
lacythe subject,bas I shall is observale, and pervades all that they bring forward
on be proper d
e to show at the right
time and on the fitting occasion. The Hon. Gentleman has
referred to the case of Thetford and Manchester, and it is
on .lv because he has done so that I enter upon the w W hen th
ect at all no . e that
Gentleman refers to the
has sh
sub-
authority of one who
-own, no doubt, great intelligence
and much industry in ; ;
g-v-ng infor • of these
illation on many .
• ts and then proceeds to found pont ,
upon that information the
fallacy that the population and the property of the great
towns ought to be the test as to representation I must
leave to say that -I do not admit the position.—(Hear, take
, Hear, hear)
The argument that because a boron
two Members therefore Sian' Thetfordegh like re-
turns
hester should return
the number of Members proportionate to its population,
and property, is an inference altogether
ference, indeed, is the other way. It is erroneous. The in-
Thetford should not return two Members, that such places as
ter should return more.—(Hear, hear ) I4ot that Manches-
a paper which has just been brought i
undo hold in my hand
refers to the case of a great northern county, Ty notice. It
are large manufacturing towns mean theYcjiin which there
Cheshire. The population is 217,000, and there
of North
manufacturing towns in the division, macoleattfiere are two
population of 33,000, and the too celebrated Stockport,eld with a
upwards of 80,000, the two towns together hav with
tion of 83,000, which, deducted from the whole tug a popula-
of the northern division of Cheshire, leavas3 Population
the two manufacturing towns, with 83,000 inhabitants,4,ooo. But
turn four Members, while the rural popaha re-
return only two lembers.—(Hear, hear.)
But of 134,000
that the figures as laid down by the Hon. Genti admitting
right, they would only prove that places like Thetfordthat and
Man-
chester should have more.— (Hear, he.) withregardMan-
thismy duty to
Bill if I thought there was any attempt to establiselialler
se the
Pr
ponderance of any particular part of the House, I mustbeforere-
us.—(Hear, hear.) When I see how the Govern-
ment propose to deal with 60 or 70 boroughs when I see
what those boroughs are, and how they are to be
managed under the new arrangement, then I shall
know how to give my opinion.
eßut I shall sup-
pose now that the arrangementslshall as Government have
been made and accomplished. . .
_sumo
, that in 1852,
subjects whim ta
after the experience on these e House has
acquired, any of those not very creditable manoeuvres
as to
the settlement of the boundaries which distinguished the set-
Bill will not very tlement of the first Reform easily occur.--
lieve that an
(Hear, hear.) I cannot be _... . Y.' Party in this
of it, will support a Minister m
House, or out
ment the object of which i
ment of the new boroughs s to support
t,......fi1ear, hear.)
his own party in Parliatnen
both of I have that
in the increasedknowledge the House of
confidence
as to feel that those
,
Commons and the .
ear.
Whether, manoeuvres
cannot be repeated,—(Hear, h ..
the oble Lord , then, I look
sea the Bill as I collect it from , where it ap-
o os d
have a character not pP e to the constitu-
prs to me to
present existing; or whether 1
tional arrangement at
that all arrangements respecting the
assume, which I do.
and execute •
new constituencies will be conceived d in a fair
spirit, Ido nut find on these two pointsCO grounds of opposi.
tion.—_(Hear, hear.) But I reserve
the myself House—to
the full right
--when the subject is fairly before e consider
whether, under the circumstances of the ase,. it was a wise
on the
thing to undertake any measure up subject,
the present measure is and, it it
were a wise thing, whether one so far a
ade-
quately suited to the case. I confess,
a I can form
an opinion—but indeed Ido not feel.bound, till the Bill is
opinion ; in factit 'in my hand, to give any
opinion but an impression I give—the BM does not
seem to me to be one of very questionable propriety.—

TUESDAY EVENING-,