The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-22 00:00:00

rences would exist on the subject of the management of these
schools, and as to the moral and religious character of the
teacher. The alteration which was made by the relaxation
of these clauses he thought would be beneficial to the public,
and, instead of increasing the divisions cf the Church, would
have an effect the very reverse.—(Hear, hear.) In '46
there 'had been divisions in consequence of the restriction
laid down by the management clauses; and in '4B reso
lotions were carried against the Government by the National
Society. The same was the case also in 1849. In 1850
Lord Lansdowne said, on the application of Lord Har-
rowby, that he would not object to a Committee if it were
moved far. The consequence was that the agitation par-
tially ceased, because those members of the Church who
bad been deprived of the grant had a prospect of receiving
it. This year, for the first time, the National Society was
in perfect harmony with the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, that being the case, it was very desirable that they
should give to the members of the Church the power of en-
dowing the school upon their own opinions, and that they
should not be deprived of a portion of the grant. The
clauses introduced by the late Government, he con-
tended, had been a source of great division among
members of the Church. He be ieved with the Noble
Lord that the Church of England had its elements of
weakness, as well as of strength. He thought its element
of weakness of late years was to be attributed to the great
discouragement it met with from the Government, and he
considered they would be increasing its elements of strength
if they were permitted to give encouragement in the way
they proposed.—(Hear, hear.) That wss the object of the
minute they had introduced, and the effect of it would be
for the first time to place them on a footing of equality
(Hear.) He therefore said, give them freedom of action in
the construction of their schools. The policy on which they
proposed to act was wise in itself and its consequences, and
he firmly believed, if it had the effect of allaying the diffe-
rences which had arisen in the Church, no greater boon
could possibly be conferred on it.— (Hear.)
Sir H. VERNEY said one important question wasayhetber
the schools authorised and supported by Parliament were
good for those who went to them to receive instruction. It
was their duty to see that the children in those schools should
receive the education that was intended. He felt certain
that it was because the Church lived in the affections of the
people that it existed, but its usefulness would not be in-
creased by giving more power to the clergy, but by uniting
them with the laity.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said he agreed with a previous speaker
as to the immense importance of the subject of education,
and of everything belonging to it. 'Were it not for the im-
portance of the subject he should have been surprised at the
exaggerated terms which had been used with reference to this
particular minute. After all that he had heard of satisfac-
tion on the one side, and of alarm on the other, the case ap-
peared to him to be not altogether unlike that of the moun-
tain and the mouse. He confessed he felt a difficulty with
respect to the construction of some parts of the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary. He did not
see how they could maintain the doctrine that unlimited
freedom should be given to founders of schools to choose the
terms on which they should be conducted. The change
which had been made in the minute did not appear to him
to be unreasonable. The Noble Lord had spoken of
the danger of investing the clergyman with a power of de-
ciding as to the moral conduct of the schoolmaster; but the
same thing might ,be said with reference to the question
of religion. Previously a discretion was given to the cler-
gyman with reference to the teaching, and now it was pro-
posed to submit it to the conduct of the teacher. He did
not think that that was an unreasonable extension. He
agreed with the Noble Lord that the laity should have as
large a share as possible in the management of the Church
schools. He thought that to give up the Committee alto-
gether would be on evil ; but he believed that under these
relaxations they might very often have a Committee con-
stituted where, but for these relaxations, they might not
have had one at all. Now, with regard to the question of
power to suspend temporarily in cases of scandal, it might be
right to have that power exercised ; but then again, it might
be abused by the clergyman. As to the importance and duty
of elevating the character of the schoolmaster, if it was in-
tended to do any such thing, some security should attach to
hie.position.—(Hear, hear.) Wheu he (Mr. Gladstone)
spoke of security, he meant that in order to effect that they
should do a great deal more than they could eflect by means
of the minutes of the Privy Council. These minutes were
after all, nerely experimental, and he should say he alto-
gether differed from the opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Home Secretary in thinking that the honour of Parliament
was ple ged to these minutes. To which of them he wished
to know was the honour of Parliament so pledged? They had
new minutes every year. W hat he (Mr. Gladstone) took
to be the case was this—that, by the tabours of the Privy
Council, they were feeling their way to a system of educa-
tion which, when developed, ought to come under the
view of Parliament in all particulars and details, and
that then was the time to be availed of to afford security
to the masters of those schools.—(Hear.) If they wished
to have a high class of schoolmasters, these men should not
be subject to be dismissed at the dictum of any individual.—
(Hear.) Therefore he did not think it too much to say
that the situation of schoolmaster was not sufficiently secure
under these minutes.—( Hear.) In such an experimental
condition, they should look into the schools as a whole. Tne
question was not whether they could provide against every
case of abuse; and, however many might differ from the
clergy, and think them over-strict, he had no doubt that
the great majority of the clergy—entirely irrespective of
party distinctions—were in earnest in reference to religious
education.—(Hear.) That schools might be deprived of
their masters he regarded as a very good objection in
the abstract ; but would it not be better to have a
school brought to a stand still in its operations than to have
it conducted by a man whose practices and general demea-
nour were a disgrace to the community ?—(Hear. hear.)
There was no class of men throughout the country who had
a deeper anxiety in the keeping open of their schools than
the clergy, and therefore the objection that the school might
be brought to a stand-still by the dismissal of the Master
was more an objection in the abstract than it ever would be
in practical effect.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he should say
he (Mr. Gladstone) saw no ground for impeaching these
minutes. It might be considered unwise were Government
to introduce any fundamental changes; but he saw no such
changes in these provisions to intimate an animus on their
part.—( Hear, hear.) He recognised the principle that it was
the duty of a State to take care how the public funds should
be expended ; and looking at these provisions on their merits
he could not find cause to censure them.—(Hear, hear.)
Whether, then, the present Government or any other Go-
vernment was in office, if, whilst the principle of public con-
trout was steadily adhered to, these questions of detail
would be dealt with in a liberal spirit, he hoped that Mem-
bers of that House who possessed great influence would not
increase the difficulties of the questions by attaching exag-
gerated importance to those changes now before them, or to
any other changes of a similar nature that might hereafter
be introduced.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME was always of opinion that these schools
could never go on harmoniously, unless the committees and
the clergy went band in hand. lie had, he should say,
found amongst the clergy a disposition to exact more power
than laymen were inclined to allow them. He felt certain
that unless they secured competent schoolmasters, as well
by good salaries as by assurance against the caprices of the
clergy, education would not be advanced in this country.—
(Hear, hear.) By the present proceedings he thought the
Government were sowing the seeds of discord, and that all
harmony of feeling and action would be destroyed as a con-
sequence..--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. MILES said that the Committee of Privy Council
on Education and the National Society were not acting to-
gether harmoniously. The system had therefore not worked
well, and these alterations had been made to obviate those
inconveniences. He thanked the Committee of Privy Council
for allowing these alterations to be made, as they entirely did
away with the jealousies entertained of their superintendence
by the National Society.
Sir H. VERNEY was understood to say, in explanation,
that he wished the clergymen and the Privy Council to be
arbiters of the propriety of the removal of the schoolmaster,
and not the bishop.
Mr. J. ABEL SMITH said that these minutes extended
the power of the clergyman, and that, in the present state of
the Church, was objectionable. He was a dissentient from
these changes, and he did not think that they would work
beneficially. He wished to know the causes which led the
Government to make these alterations, so important and so
extensive in their nature. In the speech of the Secretary
of State (Mr. Walpole) that was entirely omitted. He
thought there was a design in that omission, and conceal-
ment. He looked upon this course with the greatest pain
and apprehension. He thought this step would be injurious
to the Church which it professed to benefit. The conse-
quences would be to weaken the real power of the clergy-
men, and widely to extend the seeds of jealousy and ill will.
He denied that there had been dissension between the Com-
mittee of Privy Council and the National Society. There
had, indeed, been dissension between the committee of the
National Society and the Privy Council, but the National
Society itself, by a large majority, had approved of the
management clauses. They said they were,_ upon the whole
sound and judicious. Would the Hon. Gentleman, in the
face of the paper he held in his hand, and bearing the signa-
tures of the majority of the National Socieiy, venture to say,
that the society was in favour of these changes? There
was harmony in the meeting this year, but, looking at the
ground of the harmony—namely, the withdrawal of the re-
solution by the Archdeacon of Taunton—there was no ground
to refer this harmony to the changes under discussion. If
these alterations had been submitted to the Archdeacon,. there
Might have been some grounds for this supposition.
Mr. P. SCROPE said the word religious was better than
the word " moral" upon this subject, and that the latter
word would introduce great uncertainty. He believed that
the alterations in the minutes would cause great dissatisfac-
tion, because indicating a distrust of the laity
Mr. SLANEY said he objected to the alterations, as tend-
ing to produce a preponderance of the clerical over the lay
element in the Church. The whole subject of education
must ere long be considered and settled by Parliament on a
principle of
public rating, by means of merely enabling sta-
tutes for separate education.
Mr. J. EVANS said the address presented to the Arch-
bishop of Canterbury represented that the priestly power in
the Church ought not to be increased, and that if it were,
there would be a great secession from the National Society.
He considered the alterations in the minute extremely im-
portant and objectionable.
The discussion then dropped.
GRAND JURY (METROPOLITAN DISTRICT) BILL.
Sir J. GRAHAM alluded to this Bill as of great impor-
tance, and as one which he must oppose at some length.
Under these circumstances, he hoped it would not be pressed
further this session.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he believed that the
alteration of the law the Bill was to introduce would be of
great benefit, and he regretted that it was to be opposed by
the Right Hon. Gentleman. As it was so, however, it
Would be impossible to carry it forward at this period of the
.t
session, and he must reluctantly consent to withdraw 0 _
BUSI NESS THE HOUSE.—THE PROROGATI N.
Mr. J. WILSON said he had been appealed to not to
bring forward to-day his motion as to the state of the sugar
colonies, in order to facilitate the conclusion of the business
of the House. He was anxious to assent to the suggestion,
and would only beg that, if possible, he might have some
opportunity to bring the question before the House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—Sir, I have
bad representations from both sides of the House that its
business should be terminated as soon as possible.—(Hear,
bear.) These representations have come quite as often from
)dembers opposed to the Government as from our own sup-
Porters—(Hear, bear,)—and it isnot for our own convenience
alone that we are anxious to accede to the suggestion.—
lllear.) Under these circumstances I have appealed to
Members on both sides having notices on the paper not to
Press them —( Hear.) I think that there is a prospect of
concluding the business of the Howe by the end of this
Week if we proceed in the course I have chalked out.— (Hear,
bear.) I cannot therefore enter into any arrangement with
the lion. Member as to bringing forward this subject: and
I.llollgh I admit its great importance, I hope he will postpone
" till next session.
11r. WILSON assented.
The Militia Ballot Suspension Bill, as amended, was con-
sidered and agreed to ; as also was the Militia Pay Bill.
THE PATENT LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
This Bill went into Committee.
On clause 26,
ROUN DELL PALMER gave notice that, unless the
'Aevernraent themselves proposed to alter this Bill in the