The Sun.
London, England, 1864-02-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 26, 1864.

ships which we are building by contract, and also in our
steam engines. There is a new item in the vote for which
I must ask the sanction of the committee. We propose to
build six gunboats on the twin screw principle. They
are to be of 700 tons, and to carry two powerful guns.
They will be armour-plated to the water-line, and have a
limited space on the upper deck to carry these guns.
e expect in this way a very handy class of vessels for
rivers, at a light draught of water. Fm this purpose we
shall ask for £64,000 this year, leaving the rest—the whole
cost being £120,000. That is the only new thing we pro-
pose to do by way of shipbuilding by contract during the
coming year. Adverting now to the increase of £162,400 in
vote 8, for workmanship, I wish to state why I ask you to
agree to that vote. I may state here that the number of our
armoured ships built and building are 25, exclusive of the
gunboats to which I have adverted. Ot these there are
seven in commission, six that can be ready by the middle of
this year, and six more that can be ready by the end of the
year, the remaining six, which will be ready in the course
of next year, making up the 25 armour ships. This time
last year we had 21, showing that we have added to the
navy four armour ships during the year. What a marvellous
creation it is that, in the course of five years, we should
have completed 21 of these armour ships. I will now deal
with vote 8, which has reference to the workmanship in the
dockyards, to show the grounds on which I ask this in-
crease. I will make a comparison between what we have
done during the past year and what we propose to do in the
next year. 1 will state a return of the rates and tonnage of
armour ships which have seen built between April 1 and
Dec. 31, 1863. The armour ships equal 5,807 tons, the
non-armour ships, 683 tons. Now, what we propose to do
in the coming year is to build of armour ships 13,604
tons, and of non-armour ships 4,404 tons. We have in
our dockyards seven armour ships under construction,
and we propose to keep our dockyards very much more
active in the way of construction than during the past
year. With regard to non-armour ships, we aro going
to build a new class of vessels, capable of doing such ser-
vice to their ownere as the Alabama. We are desirous of
building such vessels of great speed for the purpose of
cruising, to replace the smaller vessels. The next subject
for which we shall require an increased vote is for the re-
pairs and refitting of vessels. I wish to state that the con-
dition of oar non-armour ships is not so satisfactory as I
could wish. The activity in the production of armour-
plated ships has prevented us keeping up our repairs as
they ought to be, In the next year we expect to commis-
sion sixty-four ships, which meens that the sixty-four ships
they will relieve must come into our hands for thorough re-
pair. Our ordinary reliefs amount to fifty-five ships, against
the sixty-four this year. There is another increase arising
from the demand for drill ships. lam glad of this
demand, because it shows our reserves are in a healthy
state, but it all represents a large amount of labour in
the dockyards. There is another item of expense arising
from our being in a state of transition with regard to
steam engines and boilers, Every say there are new in-
ventions, such as super-heating, surface-condensation,
diminished consumption of fuel, and a variety of matters
which will tend ultimately to give greater speed to our ships
with economy of fuel, but in the meantime we have to alter
the engines at great expense, and these things are perpe-
tually getting out of order. This represents an annual
proportionate increase in the vote. There ha's also been an
increase of 24 per cent, in the outlay for the comfort and
convenience of officers and seamen, for such items as ven-
tilation, cabins, furniture, and other charges, which repre-
sent a large increase ir the work of the dockyards. Hon.
gentlemen suppose that, lecause we have now armour-
plated ships, we need not keep such large fleets at
sea. That does not enable us to reduce our squadrons a
bit. This return shows that out of the foreign squadrons
of 156 ships not less than 113 were detached single
ships. Now, it would be impossible to have for such ser-
vice 119 armour-plated shies ; so that you must have a large
number of small vessels. That is why you require to keep
up your dockyards and your large stores of wood, copper,
and other things. When gentlemen say, " Build iron ships ;
they will never get out of repair," I ,cannot resist giving
you the case of an iron ship—not that I consider it conclu•
sive, but simply to show fleet there are great disadvantages
to contend with in iron sh ps—the Idegasra, one of our iron
transports, which had only been seven months out of docks,
and continually making voyages. They suddenly found
that they could get no steam. They were rendered per-
fectly helpless, If a man of war had been after her, she
would have been taken to a certainty. It was found that
this had been caused by her supply pipes getting choked
up by shell-fish, so that they could get no steam. That is
one of the illustrations of the difficulties of iron ships. I
should like to ask the hon. member for Birkenhead (Mr.
Laird) whether the " 290," which his son built, could have
cruised as she has done, and captured the vast number of
vessels she has, if she had Leen an iron ship. Why, she
roust have been in dock half a dozen times. I wish to show
the progress which this country has made in constructing
armour-plated ships from the Warrior to the Bellerophon,
which is now building. The Bellerophon is a most remark-
able vessel, and this is what it is expected she will do : She
is of 4,200 tons burden, against 6,000 tons of the Warrior,
and she will carry plates 6 inches of iron in thickness along
her entire length, and one inch and a half of steel ; and she
will throw a broadside of three-quarters of a ton of iron
and steel. During !he Last fout or five years the Govern-
ment were forced to proceed, and they had no time to see
whether one class of ships would answer better than ano-
ther. Within that period the exertions of the French dock-
yards were enormous, and we were induced to order the
construction of the Black Prince. Bat it occurred to us
that such vessels had one great defect—they were very well
adapted to catch other ships, but they were useless in a
melee, because they could not turn quickly enough, It was
therefore determined to build the Resistance and the De-
fence, which were of about 4,010 tons burden. They were
certainly smaller, cheaper, and handier than the Black
Prince; but then, unfortunately, they had much less speed.
Well, you cannot have everything. And now it occurred
to us that all these vessels possessed one defect, and that
was the very limited area for fighting, During all this time
it should be borne in mind, we had only to contend against
the 68-pounder and 110-pounder Armstrong gun, and all
the world now knows that the pivot of the whole thing is
the guns. At that time it was considered that a vessel
would be impregnable for all practical purposes if she could
withstand the 68-pound and 110-pound Armstrong guns;
for though Mr. Whitworth had shown the marvellous
penetrating power of his gun, yet we had no
gun to equal the 68 -pounder and 110-pounder guns.
Aber the Hector and the Veliant had been built, the Go-
vernment thought the time had come when we ought to
have some check upon contractors, and that we ought to
construct one of these armour plated ships in one of our own
yards. Chatham dock was accordingly fixed upon, and I
think all will concur that that was a very wise step on the
part of the Government. The Achilles was accordingly laid
down at Chatham. At this time it became necessary that
we should ascertain what was the best quality of iron, and
that we should have a series of experiments as regards that
metal, and a committee was therefore appointed by the Ad-
miralty, and requested to inquire fully and report upon the
matter. One of the firstthings which thecommittee proposed
was that we should build with thicker plates and less backing,
by which means we should get greater strength and other ad-
vantages. The Government having considered the whole
question said it was necessary that we should have a perfect
man-of-war, combining the highest possible speed with the
greatest fighting power, and armour-plated throughout.
Three ships were consequently ordered to be armed with
sk-inch plates, as the committee had recommended. Now,
it is perfectly true that the 51-inch plates did not succeed,
but at that time our knowledge of the manufacture of plates
was more limited than it is now. About the same time the
house urged upon us that it was absolutely necessary that
and
nhawd
eficvoenlsini
considered
ships in course of construction,hi ip
sW eh
t e
twheey srlicoeuulilidgboeoqnuibeukillydicnogmpleted, so it was resolved to build
five more—the Royal Oak, the Prince Consort, the Cale-
donian, the Royal A:bert, and the Asia. Ido not believe
any of our ships are impenetrable against the guns which
have since been invented, but they were the best we
could build at that time. One great defect of the armour
plated ships was their enormous size, and to remedy this
drawback Captain Coles undertook to construct a cupola
ship of 2,500 tons, and wss accordingly ordered by the Ad •
miralty to construct such vessel. It was important to note
this took place before we received intelligence of the con-
test between the Monitor and the Merrimao. The Royal
Sovereign was cut down, and I have no doubt that during
this discussion the Admiralty will be blamed for not finish-
ing that vessel, That, however, is not due to any fault of
the Admiralty, but to the circumstance that there have
been great difficulties is getting ready the plates and the
component parts of the turrets. For it was Captain
Coles's earnest desire to alter and improve his vessels
as he went along. (Fear, hear.) I think it only fair
that these facts should be stated, but I do not blame
Capt. Coles. On the contrary, I think we ought to get
the very best article he can produce. This year Mr. Reed
came to the Admiralty end proposed to build a vessel much
smaller, handier, cheaper, and safer, and completely armour
plated. He said our first object should be to make the water
line safe, even at the expense of some fighting qualities.
(Hear, hear.) Accordingly he c instructed two ships, and I
can assure the committee we have every reason to be satis-
fied with them. I will now inform the house what the Go-
vernment has done since the discussions of last year. First
we commenced two wooden ships, the Lord Clyde and the
Lord Warden, which wilt have considerable speed and a
heavy battery. They ate iron plated throughout, and they
have this advantage—they have not only 41 inch plates,
but also an inch and a half inside the backing of the plates,
thus giving them superior qualities for resisting
shot and shell. Thenthere is a small line-of-
battle ship, the Zealoes, built from Mr. Reed's principle.
There is also one which, if it succeeds, will be one of the
most remarkable 'hips in our navy : it is called the Pallas-
The vessel is of a very remarkable form, adopted from the
French. She will be the fastest ship in the
the navy, and she.
Bellero-
phon, which, while throwing the heaviest broadside of any
ship we shall have, will at the same time have speed nearly
y
carries a very limited battery. Then there is
if not quite equal to the Pallas. Altogether, d
there are
twenty-five ships building. And now I must advert to
the question of guns, for that is the pivot which the
whole question turns. Now, in dealing with guns.
it is important that we should wholly separate ships
from forts, because in ships we are limited to weights:

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

DEFEAT OF THE GOVERNMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEB. 25.
NAVY ESTIMATES.

both as to armour plating and guns. At the present time
we have come to the conclusion that GI tons is the utmost
I limit of each gun which a ship can carry in her broad-
side. A communication on the subject took place
between Mr. Whitworth and the Duke of Somerset, which
resulted in the latter informing the late lamented Lord Her-
bert that he required a smooth-bored gun, about 61 tons, to
carry from 25 to nibs. of powder and a 100 lb. projectile. A
gun was accordingly prepared 64 to 61 tons in weight, carry-
ing a spherical projectile of 1001bs weight and 301bs of pow-
der. That gun was very successful, Several of those guns
have been ordered, and we expect that they will all be re-
ceived by July next. But much about the same time the
Admiralty thought that they ought also to have rifled guns,
limited, however, to the same weight, and accordingly a gun
called the "Lord Frederick" has been ordered, and is about
to have a trial. In addition, such has been the success of the
300 pounder gun—which, in fact, is a 1501 b smooth bore
gun—that we have placed four of them on board the Mino•
taur ; ten on board the Bellerophon ; five on board the
Royal Saxon; and four on the Prince Albert. As to the
Bellerophon target, it has been fired at by Mr. Whitworth
with a 7-inch gun--at what distance I am not quite certain
—but as yet the Bellerophon remains a virgin target. In
our experiments we have consumed 117 targets and five or
six target-ships ; that is a proof that such experiments can-
not be made except at a great cost; but it also proves how
serious has been the attention which the Admiralty have
devoted to the production of the best ships and, upon
the whole, I may state we have been very successful. (Hear,
hear.) I now pass to vote 11, which relates to docks and
basins. The vote shows a considerable increase. We are
building large works at Chatham, and we propose to make
a great basin at Portsmouth, very similar to the one which
has been enlarged at Chatham ; but this is so important a
work that I shall think it right to move for a select com-
mittee to report upon the subject. At the same time,
where the dockyards can be reduced, that it is to be done.
For example, it is no longer considered necessary to main-
tain a dock at Deal, and the same is to be said of the dock
at Leith. And likewise it is proposed to do away with the
dock at Deptford, when the works at Chatham are finished.
I will not go into any particulars with respect to the dock at
Malta, as we are to have a special discussion on the matter,
but when that discussion comes on I shall be perfectly ready
to defend the course of the Government. The noble lord
then explained that he did not state on a former evening, as
he had been in one quarter reported to have done, that the
Royal Oak and the Resistance had actually been docked
at Malta. He of course knew quite well that those ships
had been only just ordered out, and therefore that they
could not want repairs. What he stated was that those
ships could be docked at Malta. In conclusion, the noble
lord stated that it was with great satisfaction he was able
to announce that there would be an increase in the rate on
account of the pay of officers, in consequence of a proposal
to improve the pay of all ranks of officers in the navy, in-
cluding the petty officers. (Cheers )
On the first vote of £2,874,617, on account of 71,950
seamen and marines.

Sir J. PAKINGTON expressed his astonishment that
in the present state of affairs on the Continent and in Ame-
rica the Government should have thought it desirable to
propose a reduction of 4,050 men and boys. Any diminu-
tion of force, whether in navy or army, was calculated to
impress on the great Powers the belief, already too general,
that the louder we talked the less disposed were we to act.
There was obvious danger of this course producing a pain-
ful sentiment on both sides the Atlantic, and he could not
refrain, therefore, from doubting whether the present was
the moment which the Government ought to have chosen
to propose any reduction of our naval and military resources.
He concurred in the policy of maintaining the Naval Re-
serve, and of drawing on the mercantile marine when ne-
cessary; but no mistake could be greater than that of re-
placing these boys, who wore likely to become the most
valuable seamen in the fleet, by any accidental addition
that might be derived from the mercantile service. Nothing
in the statement of the noble lord had gratified him more
than the announcement that 2,510 men and boys were held
in reserve in any ships that might require to be manned.
He also expressed his unqualified satisfaction at the deci-
sion of the Admiralty to ask a vote of £2,000 for the esta-
blishment of a school of naval architecture, but charged,the
department of the Government with want of caution in
having covered the Minotaur, and Agincourt, and the
Northumberland—the most costly ships that has ever
been added to the navy—with armour which had turned
out defective and inferior.

Sir M. VETO criticised the administration of naval
affairs, and observed that the one great want in the depart.
went was a master mind.

Mr. LAIRD pointed out the necessity of providing ado.
quate dock and basin accommodation for large steam ships,
both at home end in some of the colonies.

Captain BERKELEY regarded the reduction in the
number of men and boys as merely nominal, for the number
to be borne on the books would ba as large as ever.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE disapproved of the contem-
plated reduction, and urged that temporary barracks should
be erected at the various ports whilst permanent naval bar-
racks were being constructed.

Captain TALBOT concurred with Mr. Laird in opinion
that the importance of increasing the dock and basin ac-
commodation could not be over estimated. At present it
was utterly insufficient to meet the demands that must arise
in the event of a war.

Mr. STANSFELD said the reason that a vote of only
£27,000 w,ts taken for the Chatham works was that no more
than that sum could be usefully expended on the present
works. He was quite aware that at the first blush it might
seem extraordinary that one of the first results of recent
dockyard investigation should De an increase on dockyard
expenditure. But at that late period of the evening it was
impossible to enter upon the requisite explanations.

Mr. LINDSAY said that under these circumstances he
would move that the committee should report progress. He
thought they should hear these explanations before the
general discussion on the estimates was closed.
Lord PALMERSTON trutted that the house would vote
the number of men required for the navy. Any discussion
on dockyard expenditure could be taken on subsequent
votes.

After a few words from Mr. LINDSAY and Sir J, HAY
the committee divided, when there were—
For reporting progress
Against ... .
Majority
The result was received with some cheering on the Con-
servative benches.

The chairman then reported progress and the house
resumed.

Leave was given to Mr. BLAKE to bring in a bill to
amend the law relating to grand juries in Ireland; also to
Mr. ADDERLEY a bill to consolidate the Penal Servitude
Acta for England and Scotland.

Several returns were ordered, and the house adjourned at
ten minutes past onF. o'clock.

In committee of supply, motion made and question pro-
posed, "That 71,950 men and boys be employed for the
sea and coastguard services for the year ending on the
31st day of March, 1865, including 18,000 royal marines."
Whereupon motion made and question put, " That the
Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."
The committee divided—Ayes, 31; Noes, 28.

AYES —3l.
Adderley, C. B. Gore, J. R. 0. Naas, Lord
Barttelot, Col. Grogan, Sir E. Peto, Sir M.
Berkeley, C. Hamilton, I. T. Smith, Augustus
Blake, J. A. Hennessy, J. P. Somes, Joseph
Bridges, Sir B. Heygate, W. IJ, Talbot, Hon. W. C.
Cargill, W. Laird, J. Verner, E. W.
Dalglish, Robert Lawson, W. Yorke, J. R.
Dickson, Col. . Leader, N.
Dunne, Col. Lewis, Harvey TELLERS.
Elphinstone, Sir J. Longtield, Robert
germoy, Lord Macdonogh, F. Lindsay, W. S.
George, John Maxwell, Col. Hay, Sir J.

NOES —2B.
Berkeley, H. Headlam, Thus. E. Ponsonby, A.
Bruce, H. A. Heathcote, Sir W. Russell, Sir Wm.
Cardwell, Et. Ern. E. Herbert, H. A. Stansfeld, J.
Colthurst, Sir G. Kingscote, Col. Villiers, Et. Hon. C.
Dodson, John G. Lygon, Hon. F. Walpole, S. H.
Duff, H. Martin, J. White, L.
Evans, T. W. O'Conor Don, The
Gavin, Major o'Hagan, T. TELLERS.
Gladstone, W. E. Paget, Lord C. E.
Grey, Sir G. Palmerston, Viset. Brand, H. B.
Hartington,Marquis Peel, F. Dunbar, Sir Wm.

ERRATUM.-411 the division on Tuesday, on tho steam
rams at Birkenhead, the name of Lord A. Hervey ehou!d
have appeared among the Noes, instead of that of Mr, R. B.
Harvey, the latter hon. member having voted with the
Ayes.

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