The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, _LONDON, FRI FDA EVENING, MAY 4 1855

i wore superseded by officers in the Queen's service, but I
am informed that it arose from the number of officers on
the staff appointments, and that the change was necessary,
in order that the regiments in India should be made the
more efficient. With reference to the next question—
namely, the bounty given to the recruits, that is a subject
to which my attention was called by the Commander-in
Chief when the act was first introduced. My noble friend
asked if it was intended to sanction the principle that, men
enlisting under the new act should receive he same bounty
as the men who enlisted under the act of 1847. After ma-
turely considering the subject—taking into view the fact
that the men enlisted under the act of 1e47 were enlisted
at the age of 18 for 10 or 12 years, that they had the op-
portunity, after 5 years' service, of acquiring an addition
to their pay for good eervice, and that they had the oppor-
tunity, after the expiration of their first term of
service, of re-engaging themselves for a second period ;
taking also into consideration that none of these ad-
vantages will accrue to the men who enlist at the age of
24 for a service of two or three years, that the men who
would enlist would probably be between the ages of 24 and
35, who, from their habits of labour, would be, oven it
not efficiently drilled, efficient as strong men—l did not
feel myself justified in giving to those men a lower rate of
bounty. It must be remembered, too, that none of these
regulations are permanent, but may be varied according to
circumstances ; and if I find that that arrangement is such
as to create discontent or prevent the enlistment of young
men of 18 years and upwards, I may consider whether
some alteration may not be required. With regard, my
lords, to a general increase of bounty,lperfectly agree with
the noble earl that an increased bounty Will, at all times,
obtain an increased number of recruits, and probably be
fore very long I may have to propose to your lordships
to increase the bounty in order to augment the army.
But it is natural that I should not wish to take that
course until it is absolutely necessary. With regard
to the question of navvies, it is the intention of
the Government to form a corps of navvies, not for the pus.
pose of working specially in the trenches, but for carrying
on the general work of the army, which has hitherto been
done by the Sappers and Miners and by the private soldiers,
and the execution of which I am sorry to say has hitherto
been detrimental to the health of the men. In order to
obviate the difficulties suggestel, and to carry out the views
of the noble earl of having as many fighting men as pos-
sible at our disposal, it is intended to attach, under the
command of the engineers, a body of navvies of stout work-
ing men, who will be sent out for the purpose of working
either in the trenches or in the camp, as circumstances may
require, while the army is engaged in the siege. No defi-
nite sum has been fixed upon as amount of peyment to
these individuals ; but it is utterly impossible to expect
that men will come from civil employments, either in the
capacity of labourers or of directors, for the usual pay
given to persons in her Majesty's service. I have only this
to say, that I shall endeavour, if I think it for the public
service, to obtain proper men at the lowest possible remu-
neration ; anti I shall not recommend the adoption of any
such corps unless I am convinced that the benefit likely to
result from its adoption will be so great as to counterpoise
the inconvenience that cannot fail to arise from employing
individuals at a higher rate of p. 37 than that paid to the
officers and men belonging to her Mejesty'e service. These
men would be under the command of Major-General Jones;
all the arrangements would be directed entirely by him,
the men being at the same time under the immediate con-
trol of their own superintendents.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the appoint.
ment of her Majesty's officers on the staff of the Indian
army was not an exceptional case, but was in consequence
of the adoption of a new principle ; there must, however,
have been sufficient authority to warrant that alteration
of the rule. No doubt the paucity of officers in the Indian
army might have been the cause of the alteration, but it
certainly involved altogether a now principle.
EMBARK 4TION OF TROOPS TO THE CRIMEA.
The Marquis of SALISBURY rose for the purpose of
repeating the question which he put to the noble lord the
Secretary for War on a previous evening. The noble lord
on that occasion complained that the notice of the question
he (the Marquis of Salisbury) intended to put was not suf-
ficiently explicit. He could assure the noble lord that it
was not from any want of courtesy that he did not in his
notice enter more into detail. The whole matter was
comprised in the very smallest compass, as it was simply
reminding the noble lord what must have passed through
his own office. With regard to what occurred the other
night, their lordships must be convinced of one fact,
namely, that the noble baron knew nothing of the circum-
stances of the case. On that occasion the noble baron laid
the whole blame of the transaction on the quartermaster-
general. ‘Vhether that was just or not it was not for him
to say ; but he thought, after that imputation by the noble
lord, the country had a right to know on whom the blame
might to rest, and who were the parties by whom a
body of troops were despatched for foreign service. He
had always understood that, when the Minister for War
had received her Majesty's commands for such a purpose,
he communicated with the Commander-in• Chief at the
Horse Guards, and that, after conferring together they
made an application to the Admiralty for the transport of
those troops ; the quartermaster-general was then directed
to take measures for their removal. It was essentially ue-
cessary to know who was to blame in this matter, and
why the Guards were sent to Portsmouth for embarkation
before the ship Alma was ready to receive them. The
blame of this transaction had been shifted from one quar-
ter to another until it was impossible to find to whom it
should attach. Ho hoped, therefore, the noble baron would
be able to give their lordships some information on the
subject.
Lord PANMURE said, nothing had been further from
his intention than to contradict anything which the noble
marquis had stated. What he had said was, that he had
heard for the first time from the noble marquis that the
events to which he had called attention had taken place.
If the noble marquis had given him notice of his inten-
tion to call attention to those events, he would have pre-
pared himself to give an explanation of them, and would
have entered into the details of the facts the other, night ;,
but all the notice he had received was, that the noble mar-
quis intended to put a question with regare to the ember-
cation of the Guivds on board the Alma. The noble mar-
quis asked what were the regulations for the embarkation
of troops for foreign service? It rested with the Comman-
der-in-Chief to make arrangements with the Admiralty
and the other authorities as to the embarkation of the
troops that might be required ; and the War Department,
having signified to the Transport Bod the number of
troops that were to embark and the time of the embarka-
tion, the Transport Board provided tonnage for those
troops by the day named. On the 201.1. of March the
Admiralty had notified to the War Department that the
Alma would be ready about the s:h of April to receive
1,420 men. The Alma was fitted at Liverpool, and 421
men of the 18th, 71st, and 50th Regiments were embarked
there ; she then went to Portsmouth to embark the
Guards. She had bee surveyed by the officer attached
to the transport department at Liverpool, and re-
ported to be fitted to carry 1,420 men, and she had also
been passed by Colonel Scott, the inspecting officer at Li-
verpool, its fitted to carry that number. When she went
round to Portsmouth she was reported by the officer there
to be incapable of carrying that number, and he believed
this report arose from the fact that, while at Liverpool
they bad calculated that a certain number of men would
be constantly on deck and upon watch, they had not taken
at hunt tb
ecri
irtciuen
tsbt ae
rnecfe it
e ren
doe t
ec ornms iidneerda tn at
that
io
tb
eP o r s m
vessel oeuotuhl Thene t
carry more than 1,048 men. In consequence of this re-
port, the detachment of the 18th, 71st and 40th Regi-
ments were disembarked at Portsmouth, were marched
into barracks, and remained at the depot waiting for
further orders. His noble friend (Lord Hardinge) re-
minded him that the commanding officer at Liverpool
had written to say that the ship was capable of catry-
ing 1,420 men. After some delay—which he thought had
been somewhat exaggerated—in landing the detachments
and embarking the Guards, the vessel had sailed. A
statement had been made that a large portion of the
baggage of the troops which had disembarked were carried
in the Alma to tee Crimea. He had found, upon inquiry,
that nothing belonging to those troops was carried off, ex-
cept a couple of articles belonging to two officers, and he
those
su
Irretitehl
east
would
f etuhledy
bhaavtel take e
us
emda. 1 1 e
Ts tupa e
rei pains of
tbh of
e en
some mistake with regard to the embarkation of the baggage
belonging,
butnot t
too thet be Guards detachmentuars alreadyof
tbe Guards
Crimea.wh thenichvir it
With
embarked,
regard to the orders and counter orders which had been ,
issued, he bad to state, that two of these counter orders
had arisen from the fact that a storm had taken place at
Portsmouth, which had prevented the Alma from being
brought into a position proper for the embarkation of the
troops, but due notice of this circumstance had been
given to the troops before they had left London. He had
received communications from officers who sailed in the
vessel, to the effect that, whether as regarded their ac-
commodation or that of the men, none of them had ever
experienced more comfort in a transport, nor had the
health of the men ever been a subject of less anxiety than
while they had been on board the Alma. With regard to
another question of the noble marquis, he begged to state,
that it was his impression that every regiment which' had
embarked from this country had embarked with the Millie
rifles. He was happy to state that all the men who em-
barked for the East, whether in regiments or detachments
were, as far as possible, trained to the use of the Minie
rifle. It was desirable to carry on the usualdrill on board
the vessel, and they were armed with the smooth-bore
musket, which they exchanged at Constantinople for the
111inie rifle, which was kept in store there for that purpose
He thought this a sufficient explanation of the circum-
stances ; and he had further to say, that the result of the
inquiries he had made convinced him that the Quarter-
master-General was free from all personal blame in the
matter, and that if any conftsion had taken place it lay
between the district officers at, Livepool and at Ports-
mouth, who had reported differently as to the capa-
city of the ship and the number of men she could
properly carry. There was a desire to send the men
on board as quickly as possible, and if an error bad been
made it was on the right side—namely, to adopt that ar-
rangement which enabled the troops to bo conveyed with
the greatest comfort. The result was that there had been
no corn; laint of overcrowding, and, indeed, none could
arise in this case.
The Earl of HARDWICKE regarded the present discus-
sion as throwing some light °lithe present state of the War
Department. It was curious to see a noble lord entering
upon details connected with a great branch of the service
who had been brought up to civil life (for his having been
bred a soldier was an accident) while the Commander-in-
Chief of the army, who e as one of the most distinguished
soldiers in Europe, and who had all the details of the army
at hie fingers' euds, had to sit by and tutor a civilian us to
what he was to say. The War Department seemed to be
a bit of machinery that would not work. It uppeared
that the Secretary for War wrote to the Transport Board,
and they informed the Admiralty; then the Secretary
for War informed the Commander-in-Chief, and then
the embarkation took place. This seemed to be less simple
than the former mode, when the communication was only
between the Commander-in-Chief and the Admiralty.
Lord PANMURE said that the mode formerly was for
the Secretary of State for the Colonies himself to intimate
to the Admiralty the requirements of the public service.
Earl GREY—The Secretary of State for the Colonies
used to signify to the 'Admiralty that such and such regi-
ments were to be embarked at such a place on such a day.
The Admiralty then made the necessary arrangements.
Earl MINTO would confirm this statement of the former
practice.
The Earl of HARDWICKE had thought that communi-
cations ware at present required between three officers in-
stead of two, as formerly ; but that appeared to be a mis-
take. It was singular that a ship which weuld convey 1,400
men at Liverpool would only convey 1,000 men when she
arrived at Portsmouth. If the troops had embarked at
Liverpool, it seemed that there would have been no over-
crowding ; but when the ship arrived at Portsmouth her
tonnage had so much diminished that she could not con-
vey the same number. Ought there rot to be some clear
definition as to the number of men who were to be em-
barked per ton, and whether they were to be under deck
or not ? He saw a ship of 2,000 tons with a cargo of 4,000
soldiers going from Constantinople to Samoa, but the men
were placed in tiers and fed by others, who went round,
and no wan was allowed to move from hie place. • If this

vessel had started from. Malta, perhaps, not more than
1,800 men would have been put in her.
The conversation then dropped.
The followingbills were read a second time : Belfast and
County Down Railway •
Colchester, Stour Valley, Sad-
bury, and Halstead Railway; Heywood Water; Medical,
Invalid, and General Life Assurance Society ; South
Wales Mineral Rrilway ; Vale of Neath Railway; Lau
,:aster Water and Gas • Woolwich Equitable Gas • Grand
Junction Water; and Southwark and Vauxhall Water.
The report of arnenriteents on the jurisdiction of the
-;tannary Court Amendment Bill was received.
LOAN BILL.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY moved the second
reading of this bill.
Lord MONTEAGLE did not wish to thrown difficulty
.n the way of the second reading, bat there were portions
of the bill which would excite remark, and he trusted an
opportunity would he given for this discussion.
Lord RAVENSWORTH asked for the usual indulgence
of their lordships iu rising to address them for the first
time. and said that he might be allowed to express his great
concern that circumstances rendered the presentation and
acceptation of the bill Lefore their lordships Kitimat impera-
tive—he alluded to the failure of those negotiations at
Vienna, which he and the country were led to consider as
evidence of the prolongation of the war. He had hoped, as
peace was the evident wish and interest of all parties, that
some pacific arrangements might have been entered into,
and he deeply regretted that these expectations had been
disappointed. As, however, they had but war in prospect,
it became their duty to turn their attention to the means
by which the war might be carried on. He found that two
burdens of no inconsiderable extent were to be entailed
upon the country, and of these the present bill for raising
by loan 16,000,000 t. formed an important item. The esti-
mates for the present year for carrying on the navy
amounted to more than 16,000,00 J/. ;
almost an equal
sum was required for the army ; the Ordnance esti-
mates were between 7,00.),000/. and 8,000,0001., while
3,000,0001. more were devoted to other military pur-
poses ; the expenditure in the whole amounting to
44,000,000/. The present Loan Bill bad passed the or-
deal in another place, which might be considered more
directly the guardian of the public expenditure, and it
might perhaps be thought presumptuous in him to offer
any remarks on it. He did not, however, wish to offer any
direct opposition to the bill, but at the same time he
must say that it was of a nature to excite some discus.
sion and criticism, and these ware bestowed upon it out. of
doors on the ground that if at the end of the year her Ma-
jesty's Government felt that there would be a deficiency
of 21,000,0001., it was asked would it not have been
better for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have
gone into the market and raised a loan for the full amount
rather than to have coupled with the demand for the loan
other devices for raising the required sum by taxation both
af a direct and of an indirect nature? He was not prepared
to go a'.l lengths with those who objected on these grounds,
out he went so far with them as to feel that this additional
taxation was an earnest. of the apprehension of the Govern-
eieut of an indefinitely prolonged war. If there had been
elly reason for believing that the war would have ceased
n six or twelve months, theft he should have concurred
with those who considered it unwise to resort to this mode
of indirect taxation by levying additional duty on articles
which entered so largely into the consumption of the work-
ing classes, and which would tend to disturb those arrange-
ments in taxation which had been made with the general
consent of the people. If, on the other hand, there was
reason—and he feareat there was too much—to apprehend
that war would be prolonged much beyond 12 months,
then he agreed with the policy which included articles of
general consumption in the means for raising the required
amount to carry on the war. Such he knew were the feel-
ings of the mere tntile classes, and he did not hesitate to
give his sanction to and express his opinion upon them.
He must confess that the prospects before us were dis-
heartening, and express the concern of this country and of
the whole of Europe that negotiations for peace had been
brought to a close; and he only hoped that those mistakes
which had arisen in carrying on the war on the part of the
Government, and that the profuse expenditure of the pub-
lic money without adequate i esults, would also be brought
to a close. (Hear, hear.) He considered that up to this
moment ber Majesty's Government had not taken all the
steps which they might have taken towards bringing the
war to a close. He could not help reverting to this time
last year, when, in the estimates before their lordships,
the expense of carrying troops as far as Malta was contem-
plated, and, at the same time, the expense of the return
of those troops was also estimated. (Hear, hear.) He
could not help recollecting that the noble lord, one
of the meat distinguished members of her Majesty's
Government, in another place, whom he could only de-
scribe as the unsuccessful negotiator of the icterests of this
country at Vienna, seemed last year to entertain it trifling
opinion of the war in which they were about to engage,
and declared that it was so far from being an obj ction to
the reform measure which he introduced, that he con-
sidered it rather favour:No at the same time that they
were entering upon a war with the most colossal Power in
Europe to engage also in the civil war of discussing reform
in Parliament. These considerations would now press on
his mind, because he had seen what the Government had
attempted, and also that they were not even at present
fully aware of the importance of having recourse to all
their resources for the purpose of putting an end to the
war. Although the Government had called on the people
for large supplies, they had as yet neglected to avail them-
selves of other means in their power of distressing the
enemy. The important question relating to the com-
merce of Russia had been brought before their lord-
ships about a week ago; but owing to the limited num-
ber of peers present it did not receive much discussion.
This was a question on which he felt so strongly that he
intended to place a notice of motion on the paper for the
purpose of again bringing this question under their lord-
ships' consideration. Having now shadowed out some of
the main objections entertained to this loan, and in doing
so discharged what he felt to be a duty, he would not tres-
pass further on the attention of their lordships but would
conclude by thanking them for the indulgence which they
had extended to him. s
The bill was then read a second time.

point that I hope that that prudence may be observed
which I think the circumstances pf the case really de-
mand. My reason for saying this is that at the conclusion
of the conferences, or when they were suspended, Count
Buol expressly stated that ho considered that the, means
for obtaining a peace were not wholly exhausted, and
that it would be the special duty of Austria to endea-
vour to discover some mode of attaining that end consist.
ently with the engagements into which she had entered with
the other Powers. My lords, whether any proposal that
may be thus framed will be likely to be satisfactory to her
Majesty's Government, I am sure I cannot venture to say ;
but on a question of such magnitude, as to whether it may
be possible to conclude a wife and honourable peace, I am
persuaded that your lordships will feel that any proposi-
tion that may be made to us should receive a patient and
unprejudiced consideration from her Majesty's Govern-
ment—(hear, hear)—and the more so, as that consideration
is at the same time compatible with the vigorous prosecu-
tion of military operations. (Hear.)
The Earl of DERBY—My lords, I freely admit that the

noble earl ought not to disclose to us anything which might
be prejudicial to the public interests. Nevertheless, I must
be peimitted to say that the statement which he has just
made to your lordships appear, to me of a very unsatis-
factory nature. Undoubtedly, before discussions can
take place in this house upon the present state of public
affairs, it will be necessary that we should have before us
the papers which have been promised, and which I am
glad to find are not alone to contain the mere decisions
and opinions of the various powers that were present at
the conferences, but also the arguments and grounds upon
which those powers based their respective conclusions.
Undoubtedly, also, from such a collection of documents
we may gain considerable light, not only as to what is past
but on what is of still more importance—our prospects for
the future ; but I must say that, although I concur with
the noble earl that no prospect, however slight, of obtain-
ing a safe and honourable peace should be sacrificed by
this country, yet I have heard from him, almost with
feelings of regret, that an extent of forbearance has been
shown on the part of the Allied Powers in regard to their
demand upon Russia, the good policy of which may be
open to serious question. (dear, hear.) The propositions
of the Allies having been totally rejected, and no counter
propositions—at least, none of a reasonable character
—having been offered by the enemy, I must repeat
that I learn with regret that fresh propositions and fresh

negotiations are still in prospect, because I fear that they
can have no other object but that of wasting time and in-
juring the cause of tho Western Powers. I must say, that
I think the propositions which have been made by the
allied Powers to Russia are even now below those which
the requirements of the case demand ; and that the conces-
sions which were made to her, even if they had been ac-
cepted, would have rendered useless—if not worse than use-
less—the great expenditdre of blood and treasure which
England and France have been put since the commencement
of the war. I sincerely hope that the Government of Aus-
tria is earnest in its endeavour to bring about a safe and
honourable peace—l hope it is in earnest in its desire to
fulfil its engagements to support by active assistance the
endeavours of the allies to obtain a satisfactory peace, and
that it intends faithfully to perform obligations the hope
of inducing Austria to contract which has cost England
and France so much of precious time and valuable advan-
tage in their military operations. (Hear, hear.) My lords,
we are now in the second year of this war, and throughout
the whole of its progress we have been told over and over
again that, although it was quite true that her Majesty's
late Government and the members of the present Ministry
-had clung to the hope of peace longer, perhaps, than they
were even justified in doing, yet, that they had at all
events, gained one great and important advantage from
their singular forbearance, patience, and long-suffering—
namely, that they had secured, both as to active measures
and as to negotiations, the co-operation of Austria, and pro-
bably of Prussia also. Well, two years have since elapsed,
and, according to-the statement of the noble earl to-night,
what does that co-operation amount to in the pursuit of
which your vigour and enterprise were altogether checked,
and for the sake of which you adopted a dilatory
course of policy, which must greatly aggravate the mis-
fortunes and calamities of war? At this moment, my
lords, Prussia is excluded altogether, and even stands
in an attitude of scarcely doubtful hostility ; while,
on the other hand Austria, for whose support you have
sacrificed so much, is now effectively an ally of Russia, and
opposed to the policy of the Western Powers. Au trim still
affects to entertain me hope that every means of negotiation
is not yet exhausted, and she proposes by further attempts
at negotiation, to continue—and no doubt with the same
results—the same system of perpetual procrastination and
delay which she has pursued for the last two years. (Hear,
hear.) My lords, we are now in the midst of the second

campaign and it is!), matter of the utmost importance—it
is, in fact, the essential groundwork and basis of all our
future operations that we should precisely know in what
position we stand, not only towards Prussia—for that is al-
ready pretty clear, I think— but towards Austria likewise.

This knowledge must have the greatest influence, not only
upon the course we should take in negotiation, but upon the
military operations of oar army. It must have the greatest
effect upon our conduct and plans to know whether or not
we are to reckon on the hostility, the neutrality, or the
active and cordial co-operation of the power and resources
of Austria, and every day and hour that passes without
our coming to a full and distinct understanding with Aus-
tria, and without our really knowing where we are and
how we stand, seriously aggravates our difficulties and
enormously increases our expenditure and our risks.
(Hear.) Therefore, my lords, although Ido not wish to
press the noble earl to make any statement which he may
consider would be detrimental to the public service, yet I
could not hear the explanation which he has offered ns to-
night, leaving, as it does' all the most important questions
involved in these negotiations in just the same state of un-
certainty, hesitation, and vacillation as they have pre-
sented for so long a period, without expressing my regret
at listening to such an unsatisfactory statement from a
British Minister. This prolorige,l uncertainty is almost
an equal evil to the avowed hostility of Austria; and
therefore, however important it may be for us to lose no
substantial prospect of obtaining a satisfactory peace, I trust
that her Majesty's Government will take care, even al-
though deprived of the advantage of knowing what are the
definitive views and policy of Austria, not to intermit the
most, vigorous exertions for the prosecution of the war,
and not to stiffer themselves to be diverted by these pro-
tracted and almost hopeless and illusory negotiations.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—My lords, it is not pos-
sible for her Majesty's Government to afford the noble earl
. _

opposite the information which he not unnaturally wishes
to gain, with a due regard to the public interests. I trust,
however' that +they will be enabled to furnish it soon; but
after what has fallen from the noble earl, I cannot refrain
from saying on the part of the Government that, althouch
they have had a desire—a desire which indeed it was their
bounden duty to entertain—to secure the co-operation of
Austria, nevertheless they have not been induced, from
any vain hope of securing that important advantage, to
delay the immediate making of those military and naval
preparations which are essential to the proper conduct of
the war. (Hear.) Undoubtedly, no expedient has been
left untried in the endeavour to obtain that degree of
co-operation from other Powers which we had a right to
expect from them ; but during the whole course of the ne-
gotiations, up to the conference which lately took place at
Vienna, certainly not a day has been lost in the advance-
ment of those military preparations and efforts which
might bring the war to a conclusion ; and while I main-
tain that it is our duty to avail ourselves of every fair
chance of effecting so desirable a result as a great European
peace, I equally hold that up to the last moment we ought
to relax none of our exertions for prosecuting the- war
with energy and spirit. With the protocols about to be laid
upon the table your lordships will receive an account of
the arguments, the discussions, and all the collateral trans-
actions by which the agreement, based upon those proto-
cols, was accompanied. Undoubtedly, when they are
laid upon the table, a good opportunity will be afforded
for the consideration of the negotiations which have
taken place, with reference both to the past conduct
of the Government and to the future policy of this
country, having in view the continuance of the war,
if it should be necessary, in . order to prevent
the recurrence of those unfortunate misconceptions
which has thrown Europe into the state in which it is now
placed.

The Earl of MALMESBURY—As I ventured the other
evening to express my humble opinion with regard to the
propositions made to Russia, in the hope of bringing about
a peace, and to state my regret at the probability of a
peace having been diminished by the nature of those pro-
positions, I will not now make any observations upon that
subject. But I think there is some discrepancy between
the statement which my noble friend has made to-night
and that which he made in answer to me about a week ago.
I then understood, both from what was stated by my noble
friend and from what passed in another place, that her Ma-
jesty's Government and the French Government, supported
by Austria, and of course by Turkey, bad proposed to Rus-
sia two alternatives—one, the limitation of her fleet, and
the other the neutrality of the Black Sea. To-night my
noble friend confined himself to a statement that Russia
had not accepted the propositions which had been wade to
her.

The Earl of CLARENDON—I said that the plenipoten-
tiaries of Russia had refused to accapt a proposition which
we thought that country might have accepted with honour
to herself, as well as another proposition, by which the
Black Sea would have been tua-le a neutral sea.
The Earl of MALMESBURY—My noble friend is cor-
rect in saying that he described the plan suggested to Rus-
sia as one quite in unison with her dignity and honour ;
but he did not state what the first alternative was. I
want to know whether it was that the Russian fleet should
be limited.

The Earl of CLARENDON—Yes.
The Earl of MA LMESBURY:—Then it is, as I under-
stood; Russia had the choice of two alternatives, and re-
fused them both. With respect to the papers whi\ch my
noble friend proposes to lay on the table, I hope he will not
confine himself entirely to the protocols, and I am encou-
raged in that hope by an expression used by the noble
marquis. For nearly a year we have had no official know.
ledge of any papers relating to this important subject,
although at different times we have received information
from the public prints, in which I believe many very ela-
borate diplomatic documents have been correctly copied.
Among them are some very able ones emanating from my
noble friend, which cannot, of course, have been obtained
from the Foreign-office, but were probably taken from
foreign newspapers. In one of these papers my noble friend
has given his interpretation of the four points, or rather of
the third point, which, as your lordships are aware, is one
that may be argued upon and explained iu various y
according to the opinions and interests of differentl parties.
I believe I am correct In saying that a very Lea
or statement
has been published of what my noble friend in
an tended by
the third point, and that there afterwards
tion, if not exactly the same, yet. similar in mlotstwroeuspheictbse,
by the French Minister for
public,
very satisfactory to the piubto
os sinceconsidering
the thatbog noon
beginning
gpeorsf
have been communicated to
this
last year with respect question, if my noble
friend would add othe different proctocols as many as
tdiplomatic documents that have passed
possible of
between him tahnedth e Court of Russia, and those documents
would also greatly assist your lordships and the other
Ho
House of Parliament in understanding and taking a cor-
rect view of the protocols.
The Earl of CLARENDON—I hope, after the descrip-
tion my noble friend has given of the desp itch which be
has attributed to me, that it was my despatch—(a laugh)
—but I have no knowledge of such a despatch ever having
bees published, I never saw it or hoard of it, and cer-
tainly I never communicated it to any one. To the best ,
of my belief, the intention expressed by the confe-
rence upon the first day of their meeting, that their pro-
ceedings should be kept secret and nothing that passed

Rhould be published, bats been very- strictly acted upon.
I cannot at this moment undertake to say what papers will
be laid upon the table besides the protocols, but any papers
necessary for the clear understanding of them will be pro-
duced, and I think my noble friend will learn a great deal
more from those protocols than he imagines.
The subject then dropped, and
The house adjourned at 25 minutes after 7 o'clock. •

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
POOR LAW (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Mr. E. ELLICE moved the second reading of the
above bill, which, after a short discussion, was with-
drawn.

SUNDAY TRADING (METROPOLIS) BILL.
The order of the day having been read for the second
reading of this bill,
Lord GROSVENOR presented petitions, signed by
of the m
15,000 personseasure from all parts of the metropolis, in favour
Petitions to the same effect were presented by Sir John
Shelley, from Westminster; Viscount Ebrington, from
Marylebone ; Sir W. Clay, from the Tower Hamlets; Mr.
Montagu Chambers, from Greenwich and Woolwich and
Sir J. Duke, from the city. of London, signed by 9,000
persons.
Lord R. GROSVENOR moved the second reading of
the bill.
Mr.
WILKINSON felt it his duty to offer the objec-
tions he conscientiously entertained to this measure, which
would interfere with all the operations of trrde and inter-
rupt the pursuit of many avocations which had hitherto
been exercised without prejudice to any one, and with
advantage to the community generally. Ho could not
admit that any religious principle was necessarily involved
in this question. He regarded the measure as in fact
directed against the interests of the poor, and going beyond
all propriety of legislation, though he should not insist on
himself dividing the house against it.
Viscount EBRINGTON supported the measure, mainly
on religious grounds, though quite prepared also to a'dvocate
it on the lower grounds of expediency and political economy.
They had been told by Mr. Bianooni that horses which
rested on Sundays did more work in six days than others
did in seven, and he maintained that the repose of the
Sabbath was necessary both for man and beast. The pe-
titions in favour of the bill were mainly signed by those
who were suffering under the operation of the present state
of things, which led to unfair competition between trades-
men, and to injurious treatment of workmen. He believed
the amount of money spent and custom givdn to shop-
keepers would remain unaffected by such a measure as was
now proposed. As regarded the labouring classes, he be-
lieved that six days' work with one day's rest was better
than one continuous round of labour during the week.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD supported the second
reading of the bill, citing in its favour, the committee
which sat upon this subject in 1832. One most important
matter which he recollected on the subject was the bondage
which one class of tradesmen exerted on another in this
question of Sunday trading. Melly persons who would
close their shops on Sunday were obliged to keep them
open in consequence of others keeping theirs open. Now
nothing could be more advantageous than to relieve those
persons from a tyranny most galling to their consciences.
He.was sorry to see that (no doubt, for good reason.) this
bill while dealing with the sale of other articles did not
touch the sale of beer or spirits on Sunday. He congra-
tulated the house on the introduction of this bill, by pas-
sing whicb, he believed, they would take the course most
conducive to the glory of God and the advantage of their
fellow-subjects. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY agreed in the propriety of sending the bill
to a select committee, and he hoped 'that this attempt to
check Sunday trading would be more successful than pre-
vious measures had been. It introduced no new principle,
but merely attempted to remedy certain defects in the ex-
isting law. Under these circumstances h thought the
discussion need not be protracted.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said the working classes had no
desire to desecrate the Sunday, but necessity compelled
them to purchase their provisiens on Sunday morning ;
and, before this measure could work, they must alter the
system of paying wages late on Saturday night, and they
must also improve the dwellings of the poor. He thought
this law, if passed at all, ought to apply to the whole
country. He would prohibit all Sunday trading on all
subjects, and applicable to all parts of the country after 11
o'clock, and he believed that would meet with universal
assent.
Mr JAMES MACGREGOR supported the bill, and he
believed that all the intelligent artisans of the metropolis
wore of the same opinion.
Sir J. SHELLEY objected to the bill being sent to a
select committee. He found that both the tradespeople
and the working cla saes of Westminster were in favour of
the measure, and that it would be beneficial to both.
There were portions of the bill to which he entertained
objections ; but upon the whole he believed it was a ra-
tional and practical measure.
Mr. M. CHAMBERS supported this measure as an effi-
cient means of improving the condition of the working
classes, and especially of compelling masters to pay their
workpeople at a reasonable time on Saturday.
Mr. J. G. PFIILLIMORE objected to certain details of
the bill, but would not divide the house against it.
Mr. HADFIELD urged upon the house the propriety
of putting upon the committee practical men, who under-
stood the system of paying wages early, as that was an
essential point towards the proper working of this bill.
Mr. W. J. Fox opposed, and Mr. KIM supported, the
bill on theological grounds.
Lord R. GROSVENOR in reply, objected to sending
the bill to a select committee, which he was certain would
only give the measure an intramural burial. He under-
took the bill at the instance of the people whose interests
it was intended to affect, and its provisions he might say
were framed under their auspices. He hoped the house
would not insist upon sending the bill to a select com-
mittee.
Mr. MASTERMAN also objected to a select committee ;
after which the bill was read a second time.
Mr. DUNCOMBE then moved that it be referred to a
select committee, which was the usual course in all ques-
tions of this nature.
Mr. WILKINSON seconded the motion.
Sir G. GREY said there was no rule of the house to
send such bills to select committees, and the fate of former
bills did not encourage his noble friend to follow that
course.
Mr. DUNCOMBE withdrew his motion, and the bill
was ordered to be committed on Wednesday, the 13th
June.
LAND AND ASSESSED TAXES DIVISIONS BILL.
Mr. FREWEN moved the second reading of this bill, the
object of which was to facilitate the formation of divisions
for which meetings of commissioners of land or assessed
taxes might be he held in this country, the present boundaries
of divisions being inconvenient to the inh ,bitants of them.
He proposed to give power to the Treasury, upon a state-
ment made by five or more commissioners of land-tax for
any county, to remove a parish from one division to another,
where it might appear advantageous to do so. There were
many cases in which much hardship was experienced from
persons being compelled to go to a great distance to pay
their taxes. The alteration he proposed was that, on a
certain number of local commissioners making a represen-
tation to the Treasury, that they thought a transfer neces-
sary, the Treasury, after making due inquiry, should have
the power to order the alteration to be male. There were
often cases of appeal against what were deemed surcharges,
and every facility should be given in those cases for enabling
the appellant to appear before the local commissioners. He
hoped the Government would offer no opposition to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware that any great inconvenience arose from the
present system, and therefore was not disposed to agree to
the second reading of the bill. What he understood the
bill tolpropose was that it should be competent for the local
commissioners of any one division of a county to apply to
the Treasury for the transfer of a parish from one division
of a county to another, or even to another county ; but, as
the rates varied in different counties, this might be found
a strong objection to the proposed alteration. If, however,
the law were shown to be in any respect defective, he would
be ready to bring in a measure to remedy such defect.
Mr. SPOONER supported the bill, as he thought that
under the present system there existed inconveniences
which, though'not great in number, were very much felt
in individual cases.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the bill
Against it

35
Majority
COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND) BILLS.
Mr. WHITESIDE prefaced his motion for the second
reading of a series of bills for the reform of the Court of
Chancery in Ireland by adverting to the beneficial results
of the reforms introduced into the English Chancery, which
these bills were intended to adapt, mutalis nottandis, to the
former court. The first abolished the triaster's•office alto-
gether. The second amended the practice and course of pro-
ceeding of the court upon the model of the English Court.
The third bill altered the law relating to the appointment
of receivers ; it consisted of matter of law, which was as-
similated to that of England, anti of matter of regulation.
The fourth bill provided for the sales of estates, by en-
grafting upon the reformed Court of Chancery all that was
good in the Encumbered Estates Court about to expire,
and transferting the business of the latter court to the
former, giving it the power to add to its decree of sale a par-
liamentary title. As the business of the Court of Chancery
would by these measures be increased, it was necessary to
provide a local court of appeal, and this was the subject of
the fifth bill, which did not create a new court or a single
new judge, but would afford the suitor an opportunity of
a re-hearing of his cause before the Lord Chancellor, as-
sisted by retired judges. The last bill modified the stamp
duties to meet the altered practice of the Court.
-Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD said, if he thought that legis-
lation was requifed to work out the wonderful reforms
which Mr. Whiteside had described in his exaggerated
speech, he should not oppose these bills; but, believing
that they would not accomplish those results, on the con-
traryt.s that they would have an opposite tendency, 1
Royal Commission was sitting to inquire into the mi..
at this inomedt, and when these bills were inthroed,;nuacbne.4.44
it was his duty to advise the house to reject
did not now exist; abuses, to which he hatelrelnl
ow dealing
Whiteside, however, had described a system
reformed by the act of 1851, and they
were
suggestion con-
with a new system. But there was not.
brought under the
tamed in these bills which bad not beenlast,
and which
aa_n_(ul
(Tele, swt he
raet
notice of the commissioners in Dec 1
they.ll
Whiteside),
ea
sd
kciei r) -,
to. frame a bill upon the re-
portcwualas cir-
culated. notd.
however, that when he came
be should be ready to adopt any-
thingto
He
faosuenerdwiln
the
ee
hpecientleiseesrti(osfors.
of the commissioners
bills, and would give the learned
valuable inth
gentlemen credit ofe it. After a brief review of the bills,
receivers, and for the constit t. ' u ion
alemseavnerethceritcism of thcoosienfpoar:eufgortmheiinrgptrhoevipsrion:esdwuirteh
for the appointment of .
mthiess suggestions contained in a draught report of the com-
loners, ho remarked that he thought the hon. member
of an appellate tribunal,
(ilr. Whiteside) would have acted a wiser part if he had
contented himself with laying the bills on the table pond_
ing the report of the commissioners, and he moved to defer
the second reading of the billsas faormsei:iummonethous.rse,
that the
fur3trhre.rCpArolgßrNesBs osfugthgeesteildl's should be suspended until the
house saw the recommendations of the commissioners.
Mr. MALINS complained of the severe terms and sar-
by
complained Mr. Fitzgerald in his criticism of
castic tone
ils. employi ,
of a draft:
him irregularly,
he contended. commissioners —a confidential document. gH
.thhtee
rdueesp
o fee r
tnmdaoedfdethe
by
bills against the strieturesof Mr. Fitzgerald, and gave them
his mo,st cordial support.
the rd.eßbaEte°Gshaourler heed
ato-
.11r. Wins, and proposed that
commissioners d jtohuernteatleu.ntiHl tehem
effect. Was upon
After some remarks by Mr. HENLEY and report
mo moved to
wt oonf
I Ttzh that
SIDE, the debate was adjourned for a month.
The Dissenters' Marriages Bill was read a second time. The house adjourned at 20 minutes past one o'clock. I

gcr
, 1 I{P
, . i
SP OR TIN 0. INTELLT
_I TAB

CHESTER SPRING MEETIN

THURSDAY.
The Dee Stand. Cup of 50 soya added to a Sweepbtakes
of 5 soya each. The second to receive 10 Bove out of
the stakes. Seven furlongs. 10 subs.
Lord Wilton's Orson, 4 yrs, 7st 10Ib (Ashmall) 1
Mr. Baneroft's Helmet, 4 yrs, Bst (Wells) 2
Mr. Moore's Questionable, 3 yrs, 75t......... (Kendall) 3
The following also ran :—Oetavia, Merry Monk, Rov-
ing Betsy.

Betting-6 to 4 agat Orson, sto 2 agat Helmet. A
fine race in with the first two ended in favour of Orson
by a head, three lengths between the second and third,
Octavia and Testy were fourth and fifth.

The Cheshire Welter Cup, of 100 soya, the rest in 'specie,
by subscription of 20 sous each, 10 fc, and 5 only if de-
clared, with 50 added. Gentlemen riders. Profes-
sionals 7lb extra. Penalties for certain winners. Gros-
venor Course. 12 subs, sof whom pay 5 soya each.
Mr. C. Bevill's Georgium Sides, 3 yrs, Bst 6lb
(Mr. Thompson) 1
Mr. R. Grey's Dalkeitb, 6 yrs, 11st (Mr. Elwes) 2
'Capt. Lane's Ephesus, aged, 11st 131 b (Owner) 3
Betting-5 to 4 agat Georgium Sides, 7to 4 apt
Ephesus. Won by three lengths, same distance between
the second and third.

The Scurry Handicap of 5 soya each, with 30 added.

Three qurters of a mile. 8 subs.
Mr. El wes's Michaelmas Maid, 5 yrs, Bst 51b (Quinton) 1
Lord Wilton's Orson, 4 yrs, 74 91b (A.shmall) 2
Mr. J. B. Morr,s's Polestar, 3 yrs, 6st 61b (Fordham) 3
Falcon and Hothorpe also ran.
13etting-2 to 1 agst Polestar, 5 to 2 agst Orson, and
7to 2 agst Falcon. Michaelmas Maid held the lead
throughout, and won easily by a neck. Three lengths
between the second and third. Falcon was well up with
the latter. Hothorpe and Polestar got badly off.
The pee stakes of 10 soya each, with 200 added ; for
'three-yr-olds ; colts,
second to receive' 50 soya out of the s
Bst 71b • fillies, Bst 21b. The
............... (H.
takes. Grosve-
' nor Course. 56 subs.
Mr. Parker's Noisy, Bst 71b..,
Mr. J. Oaborne's Lord Alfred,•Bst 71b AWells) 3
Mr. J. Osborne's Lady Tatton, 84 (
21b Goatee) 1
(shmall) 2
The following also ran :--Claret Bloong Heather,
and Corcebus. , Blooming
Betting-5 to 4,0 n Corcebus, sto 1 agst Noisy, Bto
1 each agst Claret and Lord Alfred. Lord Alfred
• tarted with the lead, Lady Tatten taking second place,
Noisy th:rd, Claret fourth, Blooming Heather and
Corcebus lying off. At the workhous turn, Noisy took
second place, Lady Tatton going on third, and Claret
fourth. At the T.Y.C. post Corcebus drew up, and
joined Claret, but dropped off after rounding the turn
in the straight. Noisy gained gradually upon Lord
Alfred, challenged him at the Stand, and at last beat him
cleverly by half a length ; three lengths between the
second and third. The others beaten off.
Marquis of Westminster's Plate of 100 sovs, added to a
Handicap Sweepstakes of 10 sovs each. The second
to receive 20 Bova out of the stakes. Penalties for
certain winners. Grosvenor Course. 26 subs.
Mr. F. L. Popham's Jack Sheppard, 3 yrs, Est 41b

nJ 1
Mr. J. M. Stanley's Orinoco, 5 yrs, Bst llb Oninto(Flatman) 2
Mr. J. Merry's Catastrophe. 3 yrs, sst 41b (Cromwell) 3
Quince and Lily also ran.
Betting-5 to 4 agst Orinoco, 2to 1 agst•Jack Shep-
pard, sto 1 agst Lily. Won cleverly by half a length ;
a length between the second and third.