The Sun.
London, England, 1864-02-26 00:00:00

I am not sure about Denmark and Sweden, and in .once-
; irksome indeed. The Admiralty, by a regulation which has
pence the proposal has not been concluded. just come into operation, has determined to allow 700 or 800
0C C UPAT lON OF JUTLAND. servants to supply the place of 2,000 boys. This only ac-
In reply to Lord J. MANNERS, counts for part of the reduction of the number of boys We
Lord PALMERSTON said what has be ,n heard about propose, instead of giving ships second-class boys, there shall
Jutland is that tee troops had entered t , out on the repro- be only one, and that a first-class, of boys on board a man-of-
sentation made at Berlin, it was at,..ed that the war. We propose to keep up the training ships for second-
occupation was not only against the wish but the class boys, but, instead of entering them at fifteen years and a
actual instruction of the Government, and the commander- half, they will pass through a course of nautical education in-
in-chief would be reprimanded. At the same time, how- stead of being servants. We calculate that with 2,000 boys
ever, it was stated that the occupation of the place was a less we shall not altogether supply the vacancy that will fol-
great strategic operation, and would be continued. (Laugh. low in the number of men who have risen from the ranks of
te,.) The Prussian and German Powers say they will ad- the boys, We have found that the vast number of boys we
here to the Treaty of 1852, and maintain the integrity of have had in the navy has led to this—that the navy is almost
they ha. Ve62124,. ~,,f 1172.0 W mat 4,,, Daniell WOrChY. With regard to the German Diet, shut out from the merchant service. This is not desirable.
the
„i. , 4,44,1 tz; send a representative to the confe I (Hear.) In our fleet we have 25,000 seamen; and it is curious
Pey will do, that when we eliminate artificers, stokers, and marines, it
rence, but I ~.0 "'iv
--, 14•/%3TY ESTOUTES• leaves oaly that number of actual blue jackets. The waste
Tllk. . -
into committee of ;$41p1;,-- on the of these men is about 12 per cent. ; and out of 93,000 a vast
On the motion for going:.
navy estimates, Propertipn ere couttnnona service men. We are going to
Mr. LINDSAY addressed the house at some length, and take this year 1,000 boys instead of 9,000; and, from the
complained of the want of economy ig, the construct!on statistics we ha-ye been able to gather up since we have had
vessels in the public dockyards. He cited the recommen• this establishment, we find that 7,000 boys will supply
dations of the lords commissioners on this subject, and con- about 2,000 seamen annually. I have said the waste of sea-
eluded by moving an amendment that the gngestions in mien is -;:06()Q, That leaves 1,000 to be supplied from other
their report should be adopted. sources, and ate think there should be an opening for at
Sir F. SMITH opposed the amendment. leapt that nnmber cowing in from the merchant service. I
Aord C. PAGET defended the course which the Moil- am not at 01 prepared to say we shall nor come and ask for
ralty 11::‘d adopted in reference to the subject. wore boys, but we believe 7,000 v. ill keep up the navy to its

Sir J. WA .12,-.4" also brought under notice the inadequacy
of our naval preparations to the Frozen t exigencies of
political affairs; and moved that, in the opinion of the
house, the great changes in naval warfare, and the critical
state of oar foreign relations, required the most vigorous
and immediate national efforts on *scale calculated to main-
tain the maritime supremacy of England,
Col. DUNNE likewise called attention to the recent
treaties for the cession of the lonian Islands to the kingdom
of Greece, and the engagements made with Great Britain in
respect to pensions granted to British subjects for services
under the lonian Government.

presen.
number—yet, if we require more boys, I era sure
the house will grant our request. I will now state to the
committee the reason why we reduced 1,500 coastguard men.
We have paid off vlt4fp, the last two years 13,305 men.
These men had, in the first yeeksf leave. They
had then the choice or becoming continuous service men or
of leaving the service. They might go for a year in the
coastguard ships, or a year in the harbour ships, in
order that they might have a year's relaxation after a long
voyage. I<Zow see what a curious creature a sailor is. Out
of the 13,305 men we have paid ofi, only 1,00 have volun-
_

teered for harbour ships and about 1,000 for the coastguard

After a short debate, in which €ir F. Smith, Admiral
Walcott, and Col. Sykes took part, explanations were made
by Mr. C. Forteacue and Lord C. Paget, and ultimately the
resolutions moved. by Mr. Lindsay and Sir J. Walsh were
withdrawn.

ships, and the remainder took six weeks' leave and went to
sea again. Therefore, so far as the wants of the country
are concerned, the coastguard ships may be reduced to a
certain ew.te4t, yg4 tht is the reason we have reduced the
estimates that come I,ind,er the earue bead as these 1,500

POLAND.

men. I should like to give the committee ty proof of the
changes that have taken place within the last few years
with regard to the manning of ships ordered for service. In
a remarkable, comprehensive, and admirable speech from
my right ton. friend the member for Droitwich when First
Lord of the Admiralty, in moving the naval estimates in
the year 1859, he spoke of the difficulty they had in man-
ning their ships. The Renown took 172 days after she had
been commissioned before she could get to sea, and the
Marlborough 129 days; and it was generally six months
before amps were fit for sea after they were commissioned.
The right hon. baronet Said theae words—s" 113 W I ask the
house whether the ingenuity of man could devise anything
more humiliating or more calculated to impress foreign na-
tions with the conviction of the decay of the naval power of
England than the fact of our ships of war remaining in port
four, five, or six months, altogether unable to obtain their
complement of seamen ?" These were the words of
the right hon. baronet in 1859. Let me show you how
things are in 1863. Last year, on April 14, we commis-
sioned the Ariadne, a heavy frigate, and she was ready on
May 17, or little more than a month. On April 27 we
commissioned the Royal Oak, a heavy aimour-piated ship,
and she was ready for sea on June 5. The Liverpool
was ready in about a fortnight after being commissioned.
The Conqueror, a 90-gun ship wap ready for sea in just
three weeks ; the Gibraltar, commissioned on the 12th of
September, was at sea on the 28th of September; the Aurora
was commissioned on the 18th November, and was at sea
en,the 11th /december. On the 17th January in this year,
we Commissioned the Duncan, and she was ready on the
21st Farts?ry ; the Heetoe, armour frigate, was ready in a
month; and the Prince Consort, heavy artnoqr Ship, com-
missioned on the 14th of January, was ready on the sth
Febrnary. So that searcely a ship was more than a month
and that detention was not Cor want of men, but to give the
men an opportunity of getting !.ieelr traps on board, and
making themselves comfortable before going to sea.
Admirable, however, as the organisation is now, J frankly
own that, with the engineers, who have just been put on
a better footing, we hope the new arrangements will
produce a better class of men for that service.
I admit the present is an exceptional time. There has
been a great demand for men all over the country ; trade is
flourishing, and every kind of skilled artisan is in demand,
and fetches high wages. Therefore our complaint of want
of artisans may be only temporary. The fact is Wd have no
organisation, and we want a corps of artificers for the fleet
stel2ar to that which they have in the army. It is a quese
tion of pe:Stade, shillings, and pence; but I am quite sure it
is absolutely ne:essarY that our fleet, particularly in these
days of armour-plate '4 ships, should be supplied with first-
rate artificers, of which, ;
,em sorry to say, we have great
lack at present.—[Sir J. PIRA:coION—YOU mean sea-going
artificers ?]—Yes. We have in the ports assel in ships fitting
out 2,510. We consider that to be rather below Dur figure.
The fact is a great many ells a are on Oleir way home, and
we shall bring that number no doubt up to about 3,000,
which is what we generally have ready to put on board
ship. I must take great pride in stating that the conduct
of our seamen is annually improving. A kind of education
is now given, and that, with better pay, and more cotof• rt
and convenience, has given them a higher social position.
In 1858 one-fifth of the seamen wore good conduct badges;
in the following year one-fourth; and in evory year there is
a larger number wearing these badges. One half of our
seamen make allotments to their families, and that is a
test of their respectability. There is one point upon which
I wish to address a few words to the committee with regard
to the condition of the seamen. As regards mortality
and general health, I do not think that there are any pub-
lic servants in the worl I can show better than the English
navy. But there is a class of disease, especially about our
home ports--(hear, hear)—which is so frightful, and the
loss we sustain is so great—(hear, hear)—that I do hope
the Government will be able to propose some measure
on the subject. (Hear, hear.) 'We subscribe largely to
female lock hospitals, and, when appealed to, we increase
our subscriptions. The naval votes show this; but, Sir,
more is wanted. I honestly maintain, if you keep a mass
of young men together in these ports, you are bound to
protect them. I can say no more now. My hon, friend
the member for Bedford undertook some time ago to pre •
side over a committee, upon which several able gentlemen
were appointed. They made a report, but that is a re-
port I dare not lay ou the table of the house. If any
hon. gentleman would like to see that report, I shall be
glad to show it. I can say no more on that painful subject,
but I thought it my duty to lay it before the committee.
Referring then to the Royal Naval Reserve, the noble
lord said that they were clearly to be taken into account
as an important portion of the defences of the country,
more particularly when we see that in a prospect of ewer-
' gency the men are ready to serve under the flag. 1 hold
in oey hand a report on the seamen of the Royal Naval
Reserve, from Capt. Gardner, inspector of the Royal Naval
Reserve, dated Feb. 13, who said—" I consider it right, in
addition, to send in a report of the inspection of the Royal
Naval Reserve on board her Majesty's ship President, and
to call your attention to the following statement made to me
by Commander Mold, which is of so satisfactory a nature
with respect to the conduct of men who have been under
drill since July, 1862, During that time 4,258 men have
been drilled, out of that number only 53 have been punished
by fines, principally for being absent from drill and for get
ting drunk, and only two for insubordination." I think
that speaks for itself, as showing what an orderly and re-
spectable body of seamen have entered the reserve. The
comptroller-general of the Coastguard, in his last minute to
the Admiralty, states that he had inspected them himself,
and that nothing could possibly be better than their gun
drill. That shows what a valuable body of men the reserve
is, and surely they must bo taken into consideration when
forming the estimates. With regard to the officers, lam
glad to say that an order in council will, I trust, be issued
in a few days containing du' regulations for officers of the
Naval Reserve, giving them, under certain circumstances,
when they become perfect in drill, a reduction in the num-
ber of days of drill. I believe that one of the few complaints
made is against the constant return of drill. Passing now
from the vote for the Admiralty, No. 3, I will address my-
self to the scientific vote, No. 5, The right hon. gentleman
opposite will be glad to hear that the Government aro going
to carry out a system which I hope will provide an efficient
school of naval architects. The difficulty we had was as
to the whereabouts of this school. It' it were put into a
Government building, we thought it would look too much
like a Government school, and that it would be consi•
dered by the public as too much under the power of the
Admiralty. What we felt was, that, if we could ensure
proper instruction for our own students, we should gladly
see all the private trade, and the public generally, take
up this school as a good national institution. The way we
set about it was this : Lord Granville, who is at the head
of the Science and Art Department at South Kensington,
immediately took great interest in it, He desired Mr. Cole
to communicate with the Admiralty, and immediately set
at our disposal proper apartments, combining model and
class rooms, and, in short, everything we desired to have.
In consultation with Mr, Woolley, the Government inspec-
tor of schools, and Mr. Cole, it was determined that there
should be constructors and lecturers on chemistry and
physical science and the properties of all the materials used
in shipbuilding—such as wood, iron, copper; that during
the winter months they should be located at South Ken-
sington, where they could undergo all this theoretical edu-
cation ; and that, during the summer, they should attend
the dockyards under such instructors as might be deter-
mined upon, and that Government students should be upon
the same terms and footing as pupils of private establish-
ments. All that we required was a guarantee that our own
pupils shall be instructed in such matters as we thought
judicious for her Majesty's service, and that private pupils
should undergo such a course as the officers of Science and
Art may determine. I propose now to pass over to the greatest
votes of all. Votes 8,9, and 10 are our great shipbuilding
votes. Perhaps I may say generally that in the vote for the
storekeeper's department there is a reduction of £169,951,
which is due to our being now in a satisfactory position as
regards all our principal naval stores. Then again in the
second section, the comptroller's vote, there is a reduction
of £195,137. That reduction is owing to the fact that we
are, r(okiAg Ivry grot progrgo is gig argiggc-plOt9d

Mr. HENNESS' then rose to put a question to the
noble lord at the head of the Government on a subject he
had before brought under the notic 3 Of the house, It seemed
that a despatch was sent to Prince Gortachakoff, containing
something similar to the declaration made by the noble earl
at the head of Foreign Affairs in his spe,wh of Blairgowrie,
and that that despatch had been subsequently officially
transmitted to Prince Gortachakoff. The question he had
to ask was, had that despatch been sent to any other Minis-
ters in Europe, especially had it been sent to Lord bloom-
field, and then communicated in its complete form to Count
Rechberg ? He wished to know whether, assuming that he
was right in stating that the despatch had been so commu-
nicated to Count Rechberg, the house was entitled to receive
it. It was very unusual for a Minister of State in sending
a despatch to one Government to send a copy of it to other
Governments. But Lord Russell in his Polish policy chose
to take that course, and consentaneously sent to three other
Governments the despatch which was placed in the hands
of Prince Gortschakoff. The despatch coming to Count
Rechberg, arr:ved by telegraph at St. Petersburg before the
official despatch, and Herr von Bismark attached so much
importance to it that he was inclined to think it would
make a casus belli. He should like to know whether there
had been any correspondence between the Prussian Govern-
ment and our Government, with respect to this altered de-
spatch, and, if so, whether Herr von Bismark's despatches
would be given in fall to the house. His question to the
noble lord was, whether the despatch was to be found in its
complete form in the portfolios of any of the Foreign
Ministers ; and, secondly, whether the Prussian Govern-
ment bad entered into any correspondence on the subject
with the English Government, and, if so, whether the noble
lord would produce it.
Lord PALMERSTON—I am afraid I can only repeat
what I stated on a former oecasion,namely,that her Majesty's
Gekernment are responsible to this house to give every infor-
mation as to any communications which may take place
with foreign Governments with respect to our foreign policy,
tut it is not our duty to state to this house what change may
have been made or intended to be made trom time to time,
before or after a despatch may have been communicated to
any of our Ministers abroad. I believe that the despatch
which was communicated officially to Prince Gortachakoff
has been laid on the table.

Mr. HENNESSY—As altered ?
Lord PALMERSTON—And that ig the despatch by
which we abide.

NAVY ESTIMATES.

The house then went into committee on the navy esti.
mates, Mr. Massey in the chair.

Lord C. PAGET, in rising to move the navy estimates,
said—l wish to express my regret that I had not an oppor-
tunity of answering the observations of the hon. baronet ;
and it was only because I thought that his motion was post-
poned that I moved the Speaker to leave the chair; and,
without intending any disrespect to him with regard to the
interesting remarks which were made by the hon, baronet,
I can only say it is the great desire of her Majesty's Govern-
ment that the navy should be maintained in a manner worthy
the dignity of the country; and I think it will be seen that
exertions have been made from year to year to sec omplish
this object. It was well said by a gallant officer on this
side that we might go too fast ; while the hon. baronet op-
posite said we went too slow; but I think I can show that
we have preserved the mean between the two. Before I
address myself to the estimates I will allude to some altera-
tions in the form of them, arising our of the recommenda-
tions of the committee on public accounts. At page 3 the
net cost of the navy will be found, after deducting from
the gross estimates the annual repayments. For the
year 1862-3 these repayments amounted to £297,000 odd ;
for the present year the amount is £273,000 ; and for
next year, 1861-5, which is only a mere estimate, is is given
as £263,00) odd. So that the public can now know the net
cost of the navy ; and that generally the net cost is about a
quarter of a million less than that presented to Parliament.
There ie another alteration, and this is the form of vote No.
2. That vote has been remodelled this year, also on the re-
commendation of the same committee. If hon. members
will turn to page 105 in the appendix, they will find the vote
in its old form, and will thus be able to compare item by
item the vote of last year with the present. The alteration
is in order that the estimates may be given in the same form
as in the annual detailed account. I will now turn to the
estimates themselves, For the year 1864-5 they amounted
to £10,432,6'..0; last year the amount was £10,736,032,
being a reduction of £303,422 for the coining
year, irrespective of other matters to which I
shall have to advert. The way this reduction
has been brought about is in the reduction of the p,ersonne/
of the navy and in the materiel of the navy, qualified by a
considerable increase for workmanship and wages in the
dockyards. There is also a small increase in the vote for
public works, and a considerable increase, I am sorry to say,
in the army vote, owing to the unhappy state of affairs in
New Zealand and China. I will first take the personnel,
and group together votes No. 1, referring to pay, No. 2, re-
ferring to victuals, and No. 12, relating to medicines, &c.
We propose this year a reduction of 500 seamen in the fleet.
1,500 coastguard men, and 2,000 boys—that is to say, we
propose to take together 71,950 men and boys, against 76,000
in the present year. The marines remain at 18,000 men.
There is a small reduction of 50 civilians connected with the
coastguard—old men, who are being gradually superan-
nuated, making the total reduction 4,050 men and boys I
am quite aware that some hon. members are alarmed at
these reductions, and I am not at all prepared to say, look-
ing at the gate of affairs, that it would be at all advisable
for this country to retrograde in her naval defences; but so
far from our naval forces retrograding, I think I can show
they are making progress, notwithstanding these reductions.
There has been no reduction, in point of fact, as in page 101
will be seen the number of men maintained during every
month last year, and the reduction has been gradually going
on for several months. I will read to the committee a state-
ment which will show that the fears of the hon. baronet op-
posite are unfounded. Oa the let of February last year we
had 11 line-of-battle ships in commission ; on the Ist of
February this year we had 10 line-of-battle ships. L ;st
year we had 4 armour• plated ships; on the Ist of February
this year we had 7 armour-plated ships. Last year we had

41 frigates ; this year we have 42 frigates. Last year we had
93 sloops and gun• vessels : this year we have 99. Making
a total of 153 sea-going ships this year, against 1511ast year
—only a small increase in number, but a great increase
in power by the armour-plated ships. We have, besides,
that a vast number of steam ships, station ships, floating

batteries, store ships, coastguard ships, troop ships, and

gunboats, the whole fleet amounting to 243, against 236 last
year. I think I may state that as a proof we have not re-

duced our fleet to the extent supposed. Then how have we

been able to reduce our men? One reason is, we employ

armour-plated ships in lieu of lino-of-battle ships. There is

another reason, and it is very interesting because it shows
what a great change is coming over the navy. In former
days no captain of a ship was allowed, except under most
urgent circumstances, to discharge an objectionable man.

IL was supposed that, if officers were allowed to discharge
objectionable men, a premium was put on bad conduct,
and that the ships would be unmanageable. It is
very difficult to get rid of a bad man ; he
must be flogged over and over again ; but the
Admiralty has discovered it to be the best policy
to allow the captain to get rid of objectionable men, and
under that arrangement there has been going on a process
of weeding the fleet, which has been of immense advantage
to the navy. We ware enabled to do this because the service
is opulent ; and that will account for the decrease of 1,500
men, The committee will expect me to give some explana-
tion upon the reduction of the boys. (Hear, hear.) It is
within the last three or four years I came down to ask for
an increase of th;e
yneutmwbeer
porfobpooyses,
twhhtao
yaeraer the
to
rneudrusceerythoof
not make good servants, and they have
asked the Admiralty tog ive them proper servants, the same
numbertt
hheatllo thecay ablybn
y,vosyoo On the one hand, the officers complain
do .
as were retained by officers in the army. That was a griev-
ance, and was one that was perfectly just, On the other
hand, the second-class boys who come into the navy dislike,
as a rule, to do the duty of servants ; they wished to learn
their wutical duties, aucl fwd that at a taw u eery