The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-05 00:00:00

THE SUN,

au
reser of ships and of men employed upon
tech, ' therefore, the House would
lie
hoped,
From not listen to any plea of secrecy. the opeech
ha the "Tes`miustsr (Sir
Ileia. and 'Gallant Me f_it, I, .
_t
,as
-, a Lacy. Evans), it seated appear that this ceae ry v;
as
▪ defended and had a .strengae.rdisposablo military
hewer even than Franca. Lock t the crarriswis wh;eh
up "a that country—that of
I was necessary te keep 1
I`)aris with 70,000 men, and 83 others which
,requires
elle_°Ps, and then take into acceuat the irregu:Ar gen.
asraterie, and it seeine.d,
that France had not at her dis-
tend 180,000. men available for any purpose of invasion.
After 1835 and 1836 the regular foracel2oc the army,
liettrY, and ordnance was for :.even 1',842. This
year it was 161,592, being an increasel.ea' of
of4o 000 men
over the amount of force during theDukeWelling-
Government. Oar artiileey and engineersn
b_ad. be, en,
doubled during the last seven w ICh he a'a
withcomplain. Their number wyaaB3_B7oooooadruurianrgy tubsecdwator
with France, and now it was 15,0"•
reueist of 26,000 or 27,000 seamen and
.marines under
hadbake of Wellington's Administration.
,N_re,w,
ow,(e,
7," 44000 seam-n and marines, and yet we %.e tI,
the country was not adequately defendellmicionithac
1844 the Duke of Wellington took the alarm, coin-yeal
a.,
mission was appeieted to inqaire_initioait,L'eg4s'taat.:,,.. of
other:;l
national deleuces. Captain Sir I: I ..in the Nerth
tutted the whole coast of Eagletel, Ire
;m
to he L eters-end, and they neele a report.
r•
it when the Geallant Captain wasi tiumntdn, i
,r) (
cofficial
.a n examinationfer-
Y 4 Committee upstairs he suited
him
to
illeleu had been laid before him that. induced
Thu Gellant
bAslieve that there was danger of invasion.
'Ancor (Major Beresfurti) wished the House to believe,
belluie we were able to land at New Orleans 6,000 or
t.°°° men, when we had five or six days to do it in, and
iWere eaststers-of the sea gall the t
could be lulled on the English coastie, that 60,000 men
m when we had ships
to look after thera.—(Hear, bear.) Hew could 60.000
neon,_ be collected and thrown our shore without
cur obtaining some hiformatio:P(o:fairtheir coaling? Ile
R. Peel) that the
nr‘l4l3ed with the Hon. Baronet
the would have some intimation of the danger from
e
."
press, from commerce,. or from diplomacy, an . ,
agreedTb with him in calling this an " ignominious panic. '
ene,Rionimission on the National Defences had recom-
mended an outlay of 2,500,0001. or p,000,0001., which
e": 11 been laid out in improving our harbours and coast
defences, which money be believed had been entirely
Then, in addition to steam-basins and
andthese defettae.s we had a regular force of 161,000 men,
"irregular force of 54,000, as hied been shown
,by_ bnis
.
return, making -
Thou th -in all. upwards of 2.00,000 armee me
er° Was the city and metropolitan police, 8,780;
the rest of the police force in England and Wales„ 2 I_ 49,
sad 12,000 Irish e. natabulary ; making together
more
than 20,000 men, who, added to the regular and irregu-
lar troops,
in constituted altogether a force of 237,517 men
arras in the service of their country. A force of
56,500 men would be amply sufficient for colonial Ber-
l)", and that would leave 180,000 men avilable for the
"fence 'of their country. The Duke of Wellington's
authority had been quoted on the other side. But if
they Claimed the Noble Duke as their authority, they
t/Ught to adopt his remedy. The
.Duke of Wellington
a
eiecoramendedehe Government to ruse an organized and
"liaoiruned fotce for each of the three kingdoms equal in
11;,uoant to that maintained during the late war. Yet the
u
Paltry were content with proposing this petty and
seuiry force of 80,000 men for England, lenaovinpganS.cco.tla.n,d_
and Ireland unprovided for. There was no
Ministries
otrtinees
rutrY It was only the late andpr
chequer
were panic-stricken. The Chancellor of the Ex•
'atquer iu his able and eloquenaspeech on Friday, said
e
co as unwise to impose a tax to which the feeling of h
untry was opposed. slim., ••. . Let the Government act in the
cbjeeetSpirit with regard to the present Bill, which was
La, tenable to the great body of the people. If the
4" should not be passed the hop and advertisement duty
ght Be repealed to-morrow.
DOSlr, CHARTER'S said he wished to take that op-
eertunitY of expressing his astonishment at the self-
ufident manner in which the Hon. Member for Mon-
ea° and his friends enunciated their opinions on
mill-
lo).',
omatters.—(llear, hear.) Any person who listened
2° se gentlemen would suppose that they not only
hopolised all the intelligence of the country, but
~
lee : ,fileY likewise monopolised all its professional
a -w`edge. In the year 1803 Mr. Wyndham had made
aa!Peeeli, of which many portions were extremelye bad
vocable to the present state of that question. 11 had
ofd that they had been told daily of the impracticability
~ invasion by many eminent lawyers, by many sound
trines, many country gentlemen, many respectabled
neerchants, many intelligent manufacturers, n
ttalituelYee"ry handsome women—( A. laugh) —while
tar that persons
.. from whom they did not
opinion were our soldiers. and sailors.
same (Mr. Charteris) confessed that he did not feel the
ter-se corlfidence in his own judgment on military mat-
which.t. those gentlemen appeared to feel In mill-
"`Y neuters he was disposed to bow to the opinions of
roii
ielbr Mary men without attributing those opinions to the
he eilitY of age or to interested h
motives.—()Tear,
teolit Ile believed that the gentlemen who opposed the
eccLull for going into Committee on hatßill were not
, hbneta rh.
e)
11,7/led by public feeling out of d_oorsm.
beifoLteight be petitions agtthotshee
korea that a large portion of p e teiatisoHanresta;r referred
i,: to the compulsory clauses than to the Bill itself.
aetiotuntsbe statements in the press, and from other indi-
. tintf al, cif
Public opinion, it was reasonable to conclude
coi,,,..e,eling of insecurity prevailed on the subject of
eo,:attonal defences. He, hoped they would go into
tt
cod make
on the Bill with '_as little delay as possible,
tb- eirere it as complete and effective a measure as they
ole,
m. (Boar, hear.)
4 ther MITCHELL dissented from the statement made
welate First Lord of the Admiralty, that our noamvy.
tpearet:ra, Played to a great extent in defending our
immediately
theacfore.. With respect to the question mor
the , the House, he would prefer an augmentation of
he 'egular army to the embodiment of the militia and
believed that the House of Commons would never r rile-.
rutsotte maintain an amount of force. which the Guyer
f?r tae necessary
Might declare cn its responsibility to be
tie, e defence of the country. The Right Hon. Gen-
atcart the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them. the
to e,r night that their direct taxation should be extended
air`tired;
classes of people. In that principle he_
use" i
was
dir::,/rtd; but the proposal now before the I!
a tf-YePposed to such a system. Suppose ita claorrritehde,
roi„oble Lord with 100,0001. a year, it drawn na .
_,,
I,l:!itia, Would find a substitute at a cost of by LW
50/11 a man employed in a factory, and earning only
his
tt l'jubyaeatirtui te, would have to pay exactly
.the same sum for
if he wished to provide one.—(Bear,
ties, Rat
t)
Nov, this he called gross inequality and injus-
Metre
anif, instead of ,
80 000 militia, they were to
-mho addition of 20,000 men to the standing army
help expense of which might be by adding one-
-1 ti,_ 4 Per cent• to the income-tax—the working man
*coil income-tax was extended to incomes of 501.,
Lord hare to ay ss. for the increase, while the Noble
inr,- WOuld have to pay 5001-o:tear, hear.) He looked
a;iiill ,the coat of our national defences as an insurance,
etic,,,,irt was just that the amount paid by individuals
ta;ukhe in proportion to the extent of the property
he had to be protected. The Bill before the House
feltri:Ratti*4 as fraught with injustice, and therefore he
atruaelf bound to give it his most decided opposition.
Air, ters
tee •-see,WPER said the amendment before the House
th 1 aupported the Honourable Members for
.I.° West Ridingby and Montrose, because they ri eical e
of •e" the idea of a. panic on the subject
lat• urvali° and beved such a thing to be
mom
rteifaii-"ese
'°•11, eli
Now there were two ways in which in-
ter. aught be possible. It might be phi sically and ma-
eistalk7 so, and that was a point which should be. d. e-
-6.1`1 on military and naval grounds. Or the condition
aucrign countries and of Europe generally might be
eia, :e.potioinprevent invasion being attempted, an.d.t is
-zit was one wo.shieh might be judged of by politicians,
" which- the Honourable Member for the
West Riding and hie friends might very properly
fa
e their opinions.—(Hear, hear.) But the. Hon.
fleleber for the West Riding was charmed with the
'uea of having his opinion on tbe military part of the
question placed above that of the Duke of Wellington.—
hp ear, hear.) As to the possibility of an invasion,
~,:awever, be thought the House could only look to the
tiles
expressed by those men who had made the princi-
l'es and practice of war their study, and who were ac-
t
seemed to the embarkation and disembarkation of
Lroopeeee(Hear, bear.) Almost every such authority
had declared that there was no-such imossibility of in-
b u t faradsan ter greatod
Tertelonats the Hon. Member and his
-‘tlt °flisY the Duke of Wellington,
°facers who had served under him, and also those who
had
-- been engaged iumore recent wars, were of this (Ti-
na) .
cnk•-e(Flear.) And they meld appeal not only to the
XrarrY of English but of French officers also. The
ta°l3. Member here read an extract from the pamphlet of
it'e trines do Joinville, in which . he suggested that
-"ekreer •
ht,,, s might be employed for landing troops in Eng.
iii and subjecting this country to all the "loses and
--tie • e
ili lugs of war; and then . asked the Honourable
tatlbber , for the, West Riding whether he had
0ra,...t confidence in the forbearancetheaynd civility.
a; 'rrench officers as to 'suppose that
eOO4ll/11ble of doing that which a prince of the blood habit;
• and deliberately proposed?-7(nelar,
00 nnt steamers start the
morning appear
ittteruelecement of the night, and before
Mig4
. • from opposite shore haetatrhe)
rtiotille part of our coast,. and burn and destroy one or
there of our seaport towns, to the great humiliation of
-"tour and dignity of England?—(Einar,
Repeated Would reference had been made to the defencehad that
be made by our navy; but, though he the
hear.)
ofc",,tiluplieit reliance on the valour skill, and successrnnre
totue navy—and though he believed it never was _
no.
toes than at the present moment—yet he wonld
o!,
tesuitthe anfencoof the country to one description 1
fe;.:a MIY; ho would rather have two strings to his.
jui.%se that-the one could be used if the other was in-
vica'n" or inismanaged.—(Hear.) If lion. Gentlemen
of /-; !PPosed this measure consulted the naval officers
offiero'neo, they would find that every one of those
Do ':,111 Wes convinced that invasion of this country was
taah'hate•—(Elear, hear.) It was therefore absurd to tell
a,,:rose that the idea of invasion was visionary, when
of e; '°unti all the officers, not only of this country, but
co -a ranee, declaring that it was a thing of possible co-
‘2,l4llshiticni.—(tlear.) It had been declared that this
;11„utrY was insufficiently defunded,and if the opposi-
ba.." t° the present measure should succeed, would itnot
e '0 it tendency to lead foreign powers to make the
rttempt to invade it?—(Hear.) There were some things
41 the Bill of which he did not approve; but at the same
v:Ila. it would give such an increased force as he thought
„tend place the country in a state of safety, end his iin-
lees:lie,
for " was, thet the mere establishment of the militia
was oe would secure the object they had in view, which
(a t° 'Prevent tin invasion being even attempted.—
rya4l%) The Hon. Member for the West Riding, and
I,e ere, seemed to imagine that they would best promote
b-le° by diminishing the military fore- sof the countryt;
at there were two ways in which peace might be se.ug.he
utibta, one was by submitting to aggressors, anedlnt.ll
(ner by being strong enough to overcome th
alit'
11"19 Re }elieTett that ley supporting the li'

litie Bill he should be best maintaining the interests of
pace; and that the true principles of peace would be
, best 0.11.110 out by making this country strong, and
! by seeing it and the whole eivilizsd world from the
nun and miser.), which would follow if the greatness
and &en of England were destroyed by a hostile
inveelon.—( /leer.)
Mr. CL&Y sincerely. thought that this country was'
never so little exposed to an iuvasien as at the present
moment; but if he were told by military nuthorities that
he was wrong in this opinion, then he asked what were
the best means of defending the country? Now, he had
not heard one of those military authorities in that
House heartily support the Bill as affording the best
means of defending the country; and an Hon. and Gal-
lant Ad.eiral, who spoke the other night, thought the
best means of defence was by the organization and in-
crease of our naval force. He thought the Government
would act wisely in encouraging the formation of vo-
lunteer rill; corps; for their orgaaizetion would intro-
duce among the penple a military spirit and feeling of
self dependence, which would constitute the best gua-
rantee for she defence of the nation.
Lord PALMERSTON and Mr. WAKLEY rose together,
but tee latter gave say in consequence of the general
Celle for Loot Palmerston." .
Lord PALMERSTON, who was greeted with cheers,
then said—l can assure the nous° that leh ell detain
thins but a very few minutes. I should not have pre-
euated to athness theta on this eutsjoot its the present
stage of the debate, but, havieg been elluiltd to so fre-
quently by some lion. Members, I cannot reconcile it
to myself not to bey a few words in reference, r
can ecereely. . say in uuswer, to what they have done
rue the honour to say. The only reply I can
make to the assertions of my Honourable Friends is to
meet Assertion by counter-assertion—(Uear, hear)—and
their denial of ray opinions by an equally strong denial
of theirs.—(Hear, hoar.) The only answer they made
to my observations oa a former occasion watt to express
surprise that those observations should have fallen from
me, and to declare their confident belief that they were
unfounded. The Hon. Member for Menehester and the
Hon. Member for the West Riding are firmly convinced
that au invasion of this country by the forces of France
is utterly impossible, and, believing that to be impossible,
they think it the height of absurdity for this country to
make any preparation to guard against an impossible
event. I think, on the contrary, such an event in cer-
tain cases pessible, to use no stronger word, and I think
it the duty of the country to make preparation to guard
against such a danger.—(Hear, hear.) The country will
judge between those Hon. Gentlemen and me.—(Hear,
bear.) Ic lam wrong, and-if the' advice I give is fol-
lowed, at all events the country is safe.---(Loud cheers.)
If they are wrong, and the advice they give is followed,
the country may be ruined.—(Renewed cheers.) They
dispute authority; they will not receive the opinion
of officers of great experience, of sailors who understand
their profession, of men who have practically faced the
danger, which they call on this country to provide
against. These gentlemen, whose habits of life have
been conversant with the peaceful arts, with manufac-
tures and industry, who know nothing of war or the
chances of war—(Cheers)—who know nothing of the
means by which war is carried on, or by which it is re-
sisted—these gentlemen wish to lull the country into a
feeling of security, and to prevent it from taking any
means to provide for its defence.—(Cheers.) But they
have disputed the English authorities. We have heard
just now from an Hon. Friend of mine that the opinion
of foreign authorities correspond exactly with those of
the English authorities. But I have heard an opinion
expressed by a very high foreign authority beating upon
this question. I have heard, and I believe it, that the
late King of the French, when he visited this country
after that dispute which arose upon the qUestion about
Tahiti—and it is not inopportune or irrelevant to
remind the House that upon
_that occasion, when
this country was on the point of being engaged
totally unprepared in war, that the men who were
the loudest in those declamations that were likely
to bring on a rupture were the very men who
are now preaching peace —(Great cheering from the
Ministerial side),--I have heard, I say, that upon that
occasion the King of the French, rejoicing in the peace-
ful termination of that dispute, said, however, that he
bad been told by his generals at the time that .if a rup-
ture had taken place they would have undertaken that
within a week they would have been in London.—
(Hear, hear.) That may have some weight with those
who despise the opinions of English generals and ad-
mirals.—(Hear, hear.) Much misrepresentation, Sir,
has occurred of things that have been stated by those
who agree Hon ar opindionsa former in the Secretary t course ofo
the
this
debate. My Frien
Admiralty is supposed to have stated that the French
bare in the Channel a force stronger than we could at
the present time muster there. My Hon. Friend did not
state that. What he said I apprehend was this—that the
French, by the means they have of easily and quickly
transmitting from the Mediterranean either the crews of
the vessels they have there, or the ships themselves,
would have the opportunity and mans, within a very
short period of time, of placing in the Channel a su-
perior force than we in the outset of the war should be
able to collect.—(Hear, hear.) I have been supposed to
say that the expense of 15,000 regular troops would not
be greater than that of 80,000 militiamen, and
I think my Hon. Friend who made that allusion just
now seemed to mix up with this question the expense of
the ballot. What I said was this—that the annual cost
of maintaining 80,000 militiamen during the 20 or 28
days they might be trained and exercised would not be
greater than the expense that might bo incurred of
maintaining 15,000 regular troops all the year round,
and it was my opinion we should contribute better to
our contingent means of defence if we had the power of
calling out 80,000 men within a week than by adding
15,000 to the regular troops. But my Hon. Friend
challenged me to say-when thie House had refused to
the Government the force which the Government
thought necessary for the defence of the country. For-
tunately this House has not yielded to those very ener-
getic appeals we have heard from my Hon. Friend the
Member for the West Riding and others, to reduce the
very limited feted which we have deemed sufficient,
from time to time, for the immediate emergencies of
the service.—(Bear, hear.) But I would put it to
them what would be their expectation of success of
a motion of this kind, if the Government had pro-
posed an addition of 20,000 or 30,000 men to the
regular army, and at the end of two years they had
been able to say—" You obtained this force under the
panic of invasion; there has been no invasion, and you
ought no longer to continue an expense which experi-
ence has proved to b 3 wholly unnecessary?"—(Hear,
hear.) I have the greatest possible respect for opinions
which are sincere,, and are founded upon deep conviction,
and therefore I am far from thinking with anything like
disrespect of those opinions which I believe to be at the
bottom of much of the opposition which has been given
to the motion now under discussion.—(Heat', hear.)
Those opinions and convictions have not been fully and
broadly stated by those who have taken part in this de-
bate; but they have been broadly and fully stated in a
pamphlet I hold in my band, and which is not unworthy
the consideration of gentlemen who have turned their
attention to this subject. It is a pamphlet ably written,
—written evidently with a deep and serious conviction of
the principle therein laid down,—that it is contrary to the
Christian religion to do violence to any man, even to
your enemy.—(clear.) The object of this pamphlet, then,
is to show that it is the Christian daty of this country to
be conquered by France.—(Cheers and great laughter.) It
is in the shape of a dialogue, exceedingly amusing,
between gentlemen engaged in a tefle club or in the
duty of soldiers—a very odd duty of soldiers certainly—
but one of the speakers in this dialogue paints in very
vivid colours the results of an 'unopposed invasion. He
says, "I grant you 250,000 men may come over from
France to this country. 'I said that 50,000 or 60,000 men
might come, but the writer of this pamphlet goes far be
llyond
my calculation—(A laugh)—but he says, " they wi
come unopposed, they will take possession of London, they
will seiz a the Bank, where they will not find 18,000,0001.,
but they will levy contributions.on all the inhabitants of
London—(Laughter)—Parliament will be swept away;
the courts of justice will be abolished; the French Gene-
rals will issue edicts; there will be a new Parliament,
eonsisting of Freachmen—(Roars of laughter)—the Code
Napoleon will be substituted for the law of England--
(Laughter)--the Stivereign will live like a private indi-
vidual in Scotland—(Great laughter)—the Government,
of course, will be annihilated, the country will be en-
tirely governed by this French army who is to invade
it; but," says this writer, " what does it signify 2
(Great laughter)—tve shall go on working our mills—
(Great ironical cheering from the Ministerial side, and
counter cheers) we shall stand behind our counters and
sell our, wares in our shops—(Cheering continued)---,
pmeoonpoley.„_must cat, they will want clothing, we shallaup-
ply them with their wants, and we shall go on making
twonleo mma;deesl/c (meGsvornooesefayntth tocheering and laughter.) One might
say, if that even, should ever happen to those gentlemen
ohnseovyoymbeiryg
israhwteeifilinli
ii-dhcananot
iwsunnahpleai
nsp,epsy_application
'Sic vos non vobis vellera fortis ores,"
--(Hear, hear, and laughter)—and the sheep would not
fail to be eaten upgoes
on tol say that that state of things
by the wolves.—(Hear, hear.) Then
this pamphlet
would, astonish the whole
the world.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) At first
they
would think there was
an ambush laid for them; eayruld creep on, no am-
bush would be discovered; and
begin of- Christian feeling
thinki of
ce the t
among those 250,000 men, Some then there would be
removedtime, after some
think and deep reflection, who would
wonderful spectacle of a nation
o
without
a foreign foe; and in the course of resistance
fifty or more millions sterling.had been
this country to France, the French would
from
e
•
ter-
ribly ashamed of their position—(Great laughter)—
—of the very ridiculous position in which they had
placed themselves that they would all go buk.to
France and leave this country to its own resources; nay,
so deeply would the sense of their rirliculoua position (~0
impressed on their minds—and we know that the French
people are most susceptt
•ble of ridicule--that they would
0001. sterling which
offer to send us back those 50 000 , oh
r baners, mechants,
they had taken from
our
be doner eosin; awe should
men; and then they wou d k
h • ld
s oa mae-
show them a more glorious example—we
it —(Reare of laughter.)
nanimously refuse to take .
Yet I firmly believe this is written in sincere and
it of ridicule.
sober earnest, and not at all in the spir
h, but, if he
—(A laugh.) My Lion. Friend may laug
will read the pamphlet, ho will see there is through-
out a tone of sober seriousness which convinces line
that those who wrote it are, in point of fact, that party
at whose instigation much of the oppotition made to
this measure is raised. Now, then, the House and
the country arc to determine between two alternetives—
whether they will, as required by the party from whom
this pamphlet emanates, voluntarily submit this country
to the miseries and iniquities —for or those are the words
used—of a conquest by France
atonement for
the sins this country has in f
as a just ,
former times committed by
waging war—for that is the ground on which this pre-
ceeding is urged—(llear, he
ent, I nay, ale to determine
—the country and Parlia-
Be whether they will become

LONDON,

the victims of that system of submission which is re.
coked by those whose organs, I must suppose and be-
le( ve, aro resisting this measure in this Heuse—or whe-
ther they are stilt sue:l...dandy wedded to their ancient
notion; of independence and self-vindication which would
lead them to resist a foreign invader and provide all
necessar means by which, if that =invasion of the
country chould ever hewer, it might be sufficiently re-
elled.—(Loud cheers.)
p Mr. WAKLEY regretted that the. Noble Lord, gifted
as he was with such gigantic, powers.of intellect, should
hero so fallen from his position as to have quoted such
detesteble trash as he had just read frOm a pamphlet.—
(Oh, oh.) He (Ma Wakley) strongly suspected that
this trash had been published in a lunatic asylum, and
he recommended the Noble Lord to pay a visit to it, for
he would admire the institution and the persons he found
in it.—(Oh, oh.) Surely thereemust be something going
on in the great Whig family to induce the Noble Lord
to act in this manner; it was only matter of wearier,*
however, that it hatd held so long together, considering
the heterogeneous and evraordinary materials of which_
it was (temp teed. Bat why hid not the Noble Lerd
acted upon the opinion Of the King of the French, and
increased our army in IS 14, if it needed augmentation?
Teem could be no msuuderetanclieg the racer with
which elm. Gentlemen oppeeite hid received that pas-
tag() of the blockhead petuphlr leer in which hespoke of
" working of the mille.."--e(lronicel cheers.) , But
there had been something potent in the working of these
milli; for they had ground a party of Prtectionists into
a party of Free-trade :re.—(Oh, and laughter.) Hon.
Gentlemen might make wry flees, far the op :ration was
no doubt torturing, but they had confessed as much.—
(Oh, oh.) The budget was one proot, and tee workers
of mills had accomplished the tranalorraation.--(Cheers.)
Tne Honourab!e Gentleman contieuid—You- (point-
ing to the Opposition benches) must not repudiihe the
mills, nor your master, Richard Cobden—a geeater man
than any of ye:n—(oe, oh.) Why, lam sure no Hon.
Gentleman opposite considers that. an offensive remark.
I say that Richard Cobden is one of the greatest men
who ever lived, and you are his disciples.—(Oh oh.) I
expect a great deal of effrontery from Hon. Gentlemen
opposite; but do not be ungrateful to that great man,
your mentor, Richard Cobden.—(Oh, oh.) They had
examples enough to show the evils arising from arma-
ments. Did they believe the liberties of any country
were safe that had large armaments? Soldiers had
brains, and no country was safe that relied upon armed
men. He complained that Hon. Members on both sides
of the Houie had been pointing out all thenooks and
creeks by which a foreign foe could safely reach and
land in England. But they had really no fears on the
subject. They knew that the population would rise as
one man and defend the liberties they held so dear, and
the Sovereign thy loved so well. The Government must
know that they would not get skilled mechanics to enter
the militia—they would not leave their work to /like
a shilling a day—they 'would get none but the farm-
labourers. and after a few day.' training they would send
them back much - worse than before. If they were so
wealthy—it free trade had given 'them so large an
amount of spare 'capital, why should they not, instead of
expending it in putting instruments of death. into the
hands of the people, expend it in educating them? He
believed that the Bill would be fOUild as mischievous as
it was unpopular, and he sheuld give it his most strenu-
ous opposition.
Colonel THOMPSON thought the proceedings of the
House were approaching closely to a burlesque. He
did not believe that any of the persons who were in-
terested in the promotion of the principles of free trade
would hive written such a pamphlet as that quoted from
by the Noble Lerd. He was ready to admit that a
danger had existed, but it had passed away. He be-
lieved they would have simple notice of -any attempt at
assault or invasioneand although the despotic ruler of
the French might be" desirous
.of an assault upon
England, he believed the people of France would not
now co-operate with him in such a perilous undertaking.
He believed, also, that a volunteer rifle corps, of a small
numerical strength,. would be far more efficient than a
large body of local militia. That was the opinion of all
military men of any experience.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said he would be able to show
before he sat down that if the pamphlet quoted by the
,
Noble Lord was another Punch, there were more
Punches in the (louse.—(Great laughter.) That would
probably add much to the liveliness of the debate, and
he was sure they would receive the announcement with
eatisfec ion that the printer was a candidate for the.seat
of his Hon. Friend Mr. Hall for the city of Perth.-
-(Loud laughter.) He regretted that the Noble Lord,
the late bead of the Government, had not produced
something better after six years than this halt-hatched
egg, and given them soma better means of defence. The
Militia Bill was not applicable to their present position,
but it was the only one their rulers brought before
them, and they must either vote for it or reject
it, and go undefended. He agreed with the Ho-
nourable Member for the West Riding that there
might be a better distribution of their forces. He
did not think they required troops in the north, and
suggested they ought all to be moved down to the
southern counties. There was no occasion for troops in
the large manufacturing towns to trample upon the peo-
ple.—(A laugh.) Nay, if the Hon. Gentleman would
enter into a treaty with the_ President of the French to
enter the Mersey instead of the Thames, ho did 'not
know whether he should not vote against the Bill.
He was not sure a small invasion would not do
them a great deal of good. They were in a con-
di•ion like that of the overgrown spoiled boy, when all
wished that somebody would give the fellow a good
licking. lie thought it would do the country a great
deal of good to get a good licking.—(Great laughter.)
if an invading army appeared, he believed these mills,
which had done such wonderful things, would 8009 cease
working. Now (said Mr. Drummond) they were a very
rich people—they bragged of their wealth—but they
were thought much richer than they really were; and
they advertised the fact that they did not intend to de-
fend themselves. Why, their refusal to do so was just
as much as to say to the French, " Come over and plun-
der us, for we shall not resiet."—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS next rose, but was very indis-
tinctly heard in consequence of the noes() that prevailed
in the Reuse. He wes understood to observe that the
Hon. Member for Finsbury had stated that no justifica-
tion was offered for this measure. He (Lord J. Manners)
should, however, have thought that the opinions pro-
nounced by the most eminent men in the country upon
this subject might have had weight even with the Hon.
Member for Finsbury. He must remind the House hf the
necessity under which this measure was proceeded with—
viz., the House had pronounced by its vote that a Bill
should be introduced for the organization of the militia,
and it was in obedience to that vote that tho present
measure was brought in. The greatest obj
were urged against the increase of then rmy and nav
edy.
Under these circumstances, it being grally admitt
that the defences of the country were in a most defective
state, the Government were of opinion that the addi-
tional forces required could be best obtained with due
regard to the best interests of the country by
the adop-
tion of the present measure—a measure that walculateas less
hostile to the feelings of the people, and better cd
to meet the objects they had in view, than any other
course which they could take. The Government, there-
fore, confidently asked the House to reject the amend-
ment.—( Rear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I wish to state, in the
first place, that I cannot vote for the amendment now
proposed, because I think it desirable, the House having
decided by a very large majority in favour of the second
reading, that we should proceed in Committee to dis-
cuss the various clauses and provisions of this Bill.
But whilst I cannot agree with many of the statements
made in the very able speech of the Hon. Member for
the West Riding, I must at the same time protest
against the formula put forward by the Noble Lord the
Member for Tiverton. The Noble Lord says that there
is this alternative—" If you vote for this Bill you will
at least be safe, whilst if you vote_ for the amendment'
you may possibly be ruined." Sir, the whole of my obh
jections against this Bill are comprised in this, that it will
not make you safe. I agree with the Noble Lord, not as to
the extent of the danger, not as to the sadden nature of
the attack that he seems to apprehend, but as to the
necessity for providing against dangers which, in the
event of war, must be greater than they were at former
periods. The Government, undoubtedly, has fairly un-
dertaken the execution of the wish of this House, as ex.
pressed in its resolution, that a Bill should be brought
in; but I have considered this matter as well as I could
before the second' reading, with the view of ascertaining
whether it was possible for me to propose such amend-
ments in Committee as would render the Bill much more
.efficient as a means of defence for the country, andit
_seemed to me that while I might perhaps succeed in de-
felting some of its clauses, I could hardly be successful
in inserting other clauses and other provisions that
would give strength and efficiency to the measure: I
therefore came to the conclusion that it would be better
that the Bill should at once he rejected, in 'order that the
Government might provide a better force for the defence
of the country.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) • I need not
allude to the various other means that hate been sug-
gested by different Members of this House, and some of
them by myself, as being more adapted to secure the
peace of the country. If this Bill had not been enter-
tained by the. House, I feel not the slightest doubt if
the Government had thought it necessary to resort to
some of those other means, that. there are hardly any
of them that are not better than the present Bill.—(Oh.)
I see Gentlemen doubt my opinion; but really though I
have heard the Bill very much defended in this House,
I hardly heard any one of experience, still less
any person of military experience, say that they
thought this measure would be effective.—(Hear, hear.)
Gentlemen seem to doubt what I have stated; but I
shall put to the Gentlemen the following case, in order
,that Gentlemen may bring home to their minds the in-
efficiency of the measure which the Noble Lord the
Member for Tieertou says is to make this country safe-,
south coast,
—(Hear, hear.) If the small regular force be 11,3 in
part of
creased no one can doubt that if a war were to break out
separate
apr person otuh
ein f
forces
s ile situationwouol ed
boem ma
tr:inedetro.
.)eihicieccf wouldnouthhel
neighbourhood of London and between Loudon .and ,the
docks, andhroc
ted against that organized suddenlytvoaict tiny
IV se an invasion, took place in a
oorrniwa,enli
ePn Pembroke
bfor,orckpe,
suppose 5,000 men of this raw militia were
-Now o
one b i vo that such a force would be suffi-
hed. Ce tlll ry ,
Cient to send against that French force, and if that were
thiaoteaffesautffitveci.eruitafotricheetholsaentnd
told
dainst them this Bill will not
that the measure, that we
the
nature, and that
proposed to introduce is one of a
difference be-
au), question that may ho raised asslintod
There'wise and
d coupledentientirely
yw with
from
tweeu a local militia and a regular militl'athih one
o spirit
gsitereewmataeiaimarpcigoonrhtstaineatiend.t with such a statement of n 3
statement—namely,
that which
Houseunebileh that
and patriotism, that a majority of thisrefused
the regular militia except from motives of
leave to me to bring in a Bill, founded upon a principle
of kcal militia; and, on the other hand, that. linceolgllCl
faction.-- (gear, hear.) I own I cannot see
opposenottty
and
there is 01104 very convincing in this statement,—