The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-07 00:00:00

SUN,

114. lIITME said the Chancellor,of the Exchequer had
nalsiuterprete,l what had fallen from him. He did not
complain of the Right Hon. Gentleman's inattention, hut
of th© general inattention of the House at the moment.
Ile referred to the noise and crowding of Hon. Members
at the bar, and to the inattention of the officer whose
duty it was to prevent the confusion. If one Sergeant-
at-Arms was not enough let them have two or three.—
(Cheers and laughter.)
I.lr. W. BROWN hoped they might be allowed to
Proceed with the business before them.
Mr. HUME said that on one conditon he would not
divide—viz., let ell those gentlemen on the floor of the
house at the bar go to dinner.—(Lsughter.)
The Hon. Members referred to having withdrawn to
their places.
Mr. HUME sail that he would now withdraw his
motion, and he hoped Hen. Gentlemen would be better
conducted.
Mr. EWART then proceeded to address the,vCom-
mittee, contending fur the necessity of consolidating aii
the Militia Acts before proceeding with the present Bill.
The question was a poor man's estion; for the work-
ing man could nut be supposedu to understand all the
Acts referred to in the Bill, or the provisions which
were based upon these Acts. He contended, therefore,
until the requisite consolidation was effected, they were
justified in opposing by every legitimate means the pass-
ing of the Bill.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—

82
165
-83

For Mr. Hume's amendment
Against it ... ..•
Majority ...
The amendment was accordingly lost.
Mr. M. GIBSON then moved to insert the words
"deputy-lieutenant" after the word „appointed," in line
20 of this clause. The deputy-lieutenants would have to
decide on claims to exemption from service in the mi-
litia; they were invested, therefore, with judicial
powers. What he (Mr. Gibson) contended for was
that the choice of persons for the duties of deputy
lieutenant should not be confined to persons having
2001. a year landed estate, The amendment
went to abolish the property qualification fer deputy-
lieutenants; and if it were not adopred he (Mr. Gibson)
should move a proviso making individuals with a cer-
tain amount of personal property eligible to that office•
should also propose to abolish the property qualifi-
cation as regarded majors in the militia and officers
above that rank, on the ground that ho did not see what
landed property had to do with military talent and effi-
ciency.
Sir J. TYRELL did not understand the repeated at-
tacks of the Manchester gentlemen on the landed in-
terest —(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman was
formerly a landed proprietor in the county of Suffolk
himself, and ho was now put forward to prove the pug-
tacity.of the landed interest. He (Sir J. Tvrell) should
feel no jealousy if the Right Hon. Gentleman made so
blither bales of cotton a qualificscion; and he was willing
to enter into a treaty of commerce with him on the sub-
ject. But he could not understand why these absurd at-
tacks—he was going to say—were made on the landed
interest, except it was for the purposes of the hustings.
These motions were neither useful nor advantegeous,
and he hoped they would be discontinued.
Bit J. WALSEI said that deputy-lieutenants were not
necessarily part of the militia; he therefore thought the
amendment was not in order.
Mr. BERNAL decided that it was in order.
Mr. WALPOLE thought the amendment proposed
Would not work satisfactorily; he could not, therefore,
consent to it; but he agreed with much that the Right
110 c. Gentleman had said on the subject of the personal
qualification, and he should not object to the proviso, as
regarded dicers, if it was fixed at 2001. a year personal
qualification.
Mn HUME said, it wou!d be better to leave the ap-
pointment of all officers to the discretion of the lord-
lieutenant.
Lord PALMERSTON considered it would be very
essential to the militia service to have one field officer
Who had served in the line. He, therefore. thought that
service in the army should be tantamount to a qualifi-
cation.
Mr.itt WALPOLE said that was already in the Bi 1.
"tr.
NE WDEGATE thought it highly inadvisable
that the deputy-lieutenants should not be locally ac-
quainted with the county through residence.
After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT,
til,lr. WALPOLE said the lord-lieutenant would have
Power of appointing a military man without any gee-
nue catton, and also the power of eppointing, in cilia the
I:ended proviso which he (Mr Walpele) suggested
as adopted, individuals possessing personal as *ell as
real estate of a certain amount.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the qualification should be put upon the same basis as
the
Parliamentary qualification.
Mre PACKE acid landed property generally implied
ielice; whereas the possessor of personal property
might be absent when his services were most needed.
M•„: EWART said that personal property was reeog-
B • as a qualification in certain counties and cities—
ristol and York for instance.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE was of opinion that the ap-
pointments in question should be left entirely to the
'ores lieutenants of counties.
Sir P. THESIGER said there would bo a difficulty in
case of the descent of personal property.
After some further discussion,
0 Colonel SIBTHORP said, as so much difference of
pinion existed with respect to the mode of qualification,
it would be advisable if the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary for the Home Department postponed the con-
sideration of that part of the Bill.
Mr. HUME thought the qualification ought to be left
Entirely with the lord lieutenant. The dispute on this
clause only showed the necessity of consolidating the
Whole of the statutes on the subject.
Mr. M. GIBSON said, as he understood that Govern-
ment agreed to the principle of his amendments, he
would withdraw them on that understanding.
The ATTORNEY- GENERAL said, it must be under-
stood that a different qualification would be required for
different ranks.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
it was important that the deputy lieutenant should be
locally connected by qualification. At present the quali-
ficationt was irrespective of locality. He did not see how
he could make an exception in the present case.
Mr. BRIGHT thought it was unjust to have a dif-
ferent amount of qualification for different ranks. He
hoped Government would abolish the gradation qua-
lification, and fix the qualification at a moderate sum.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
consider the militia service was a pure military service.
tie thought that some difference in the qualification
°tight to be retained.
Lord SEYMOUR hoped the question of promotion
Was still reserved by Government. He trusted that pro-
Motion would he attainable without specific qualification.
Mr. WALPOLE said, whatever was the amount of
real property qualification, Government would now ac-
' Pt personal qualification. The lord-lieutenant would
"are power to appoint one officer from the line to a
higher post in the militia without reference to qualifica-
tion (we understood).
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 4, after discussion, was agreed to.
On clause 5 being proposed, in answer to an objection
by Mr. W. WILLIAMS,
Mr. WALPOLE said it was requisite the Crown
should have the appointment of the sergeants (we un-
derstood.) The militia must be drilled by regular ser-
geants to become effective.
After a few words from Mr. Williams,Colonel Sib-
therp, and Sir C. Burrell
Mr. WALPOLE, in replysergeants to a question put by Colonel
would be taken from the
regular army, but would go back to the army atter the
drilling of the militia was over. A distinction might
be taken between the enrolment and the embodiment of
the militia. He intended to move a proviso to the clause,
that during the time of embodiment the commanding
officer should hacommandingappointments of the non-com-
missioned officers under him.
Sir G. GREY. was in favour of the Crown retaining
the power of eppointing the non-commissioned officers.
The more the Crown possessed such a power the more
efficient would bo the force.
bggestion of Mr.
The clause was then agreed to.h
Clause 6 was amended,
WALPOLE, to the effect holdingtalatamtitlailteliaosffisuhbeursidnoV3.
earcoaissione in the regular subject to
Auch regulations as might afterwards be made-
commissions Secretary of State, continue to hold The such commissions
Hon. and
-and
tri the militia to be raised.
he had stated the na-
ture-laearned Gentleman added,
of the clause and thatthe alteration, in order to
correct an impression that prevailed in the country,
that the old militia officers were to be deprived of their
tank.-
lause nrovide that ex-
z Mr. ROBHOUSE—Does to c „he_ may
bung officers "shall be" continued, or teat t e
Mr. WALL'OLE—" May be" f
age, and
many of the officers were now 70 years of age, continued. A great
.a n
manynPliertunity of retiring would be afforded them.
The clause was then agreed to.
On the next clause,
Mr. CHARTERIS said ho had placed a noticet clean
notice
taper relative to the number of men, and as thatommit.
Commit-
tee Some reference to the clause, he hoped the.o
had
would allow him to state the general grounds why why he
agreed
that Placed it on the paper. The House seemed
e"t "nee measure of defence was required, but a
uiversity of opinion existed as to what constituted real
defen, great.
Bill s'e.
Having gone into Committee ou
.the present
, they had to consider whether the provisions of it
Were such as to render it an effective measure of defence.
It Was essential, in the first place, that they should come
,`
top a clear understanding as to the nature and character
31:11e danger against which we had to guard ourselves.
need hardly remind the House that with respect to a
neighbouring country we were not now in the position in
which we were at the commencement of the century.
Steam had undoubtedly facilitated the concentration of
t
I.°°Ps and attack, and he believed that in proportion to
the
nee facility of attack would be its probability. They
ell ht, therefore, to consider whether the measure
Would provide a force capable of resisting an invading
army of regular troops, The opinion of most mili-
tary
men was that a militia, drilled only for twenty-
°rift days in the year, was a force utterly incompetent to
repel the attack of regular troops. The Bill proposed
that 80,000 men should be drilled twenty-one days in
each year. But in his opinion it would bo better that
they should limit the number of men to 40,000 or 50,000,
and that those men should be more efficiently trained.
IT
-0 would, therefore, suggest to his Right Hon. Friend,
the Secretary for the Home Department, that they
should raise but 40,000 or 50,000 men, and that those
Men should be drilled fifty-six days in the first year, and
ten days in each of the four following years. Ha be
!toyed that under that arrangement they would effect
in the five years a saving to the amount of one-third of
the expellee which would be incurred under the Govern-
ment proposal. He wished further to observe that he
thought they would do well to remove the compulsory
clattaeti irons the Bill,—(Hoar, hear.) hoped his

THE

Right Hon. Friend would make some concession upon
that subject, because he believed the greater part, if no'
of that measure W 9.4
otiw'einwe htoolethoefinthsearthOtr oPfatittleisteYclause.s.—(flear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN asked the Hhh. Member whether
he meant to move any amendment
Mr. CHARTERIS replied in the negative. Ho merely
wished to offer a suggestion.
Mr. WALPOLE said that as his Hon. Friend had
adverted to the 16th clause, which provided for the en-
forcement of the ballet, while they had under their con-
sideration the 7th clause, he (Mr. Walpole) would take
that opportunity of announcing the intention of the Go•
vernment upon that subject. The great object of the
Government was to raise the required number of men by
voluntary enlistment, if they could properly do so. They
looked upon that as a great experiment, and they there-
fore proposed that the ballot should not be put in force
until the last day of the present year. Under that ar-
rangement they would have Fix or eight months to see
how tar they could raise the men by v tlantary enlist-
ment. Parliament and the country would by that means
be able to judge of the experiment, and the results to
which it might lead. The now Parliament would meet
before the machinery of the ballot should have been put
at all into operation—(Hear)—arei they would have a
full opportunity
of stopping that machinery it it should
be found uenccessary to have recourse to it. The Go-
vernment were not anxious to have recourse to the
ballot, but, on the contras y, were desirous of avoiding
it if possible. Let him remind the Committee that
if the Bill were not passed, and if it should
be found necessary to have recourse to the ballot be-
tween the present time and the meeting of Parliament,
they would have no means of raising the men that
would be required, except by removing the Ballot Sus-
;tension Act, and resorting to the 42d of George 111.
171.9 could not approve of the suggestion ofhis Hon.
Fricod, that the proposed number of men should be les-
sened by one-half, and that the period for drilling should
be greatly increased. He believed that the measure as
it stood would combine the two great vantages of
giving them a sufficient force for any emergency, and
raising that force with as little disturbance as possible of
the ordinary occupations of the people. Ha proposed,
however, to amend the wording of that clause by sub-
stituting for the words "there shall be raised," the fol-
lowing words—" it shall be lawful to raise."
Lord JOCELYN expressed his disapproval of the
proposal of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Charteris). The
highest authorities upon that subject had expressed
their belief that 70,000 or 80,000 men were the smallest
number which could form an efficient force. He did not
expect that that Bill would give them any perfectly-
trained and effective troops; but it would enable the
Government to know where they could lay their hands
on a body of men who would be found extrsmely useful
in an emergency. He would suggest to his Right Hon.
Friend the Secretary for the Home Department a mode
by which the efficiency of the force might b very consie
derably increased. Under the Queen's warrant soldiers
were at present allowed to purchase their discharge on
pa} ment of a certain sum, graduated according to the
amount of service they might have performed. It appeared
to him that it would be very desirable to allow those
men to purchase their discharge at a lower rate. on
condition of their enrolling themselves in the militia,
while they should receive the same bounty as other
volunteers. He believed that the number of soldiers
who purchased their discharge amounted annually to
about 1,600; and it wet evident that those men who
had undergone a regular military training might add
greatly to the efficiency of the militia force. He thought
that the men themselves would not he unwilling to avail
themselves of that arrangement, and he had also reason
to think that it would meet with the approval of military
authorities.
Ltir. WALPOLE having here proposed that the blank
in the clause should be filled up with the words " eighty
thousand,"
Mr. M. GIBSON said that as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man bad announced his intention of postponing the ope-
rations of the ballot until after the meeting of the next
Parliament, there could he no practical use in asking the
House at present to vote for the enactment of the ballot.
If that measure could not be enforced 'mil after the
meeting of the new Parliament, why should it be enacted
in the meantime? And why should they commit them-
selves to a principle without any necessity ? And if they
were to postpone one-half of the Bill. why should they
not ego postpone the other half? Why should they,
to use a common saying, " make two bites of a
cherry?" Thy proposed to raise 80,000 militiamen,
end they bad got, at the lowest computation, 67.000 re-
gular troops within the United Kingdom. Now the
Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had informed them
that in the month of January, 1814, during the height
of the French war, they had in the United Kingdom
only 80,000 militiamen and 56.000 regular troops; so
that it was at present proposed that they should have a
larger force in time of peace then they had during the
height of the French war. Was that reasonable? They
told him of the danger of attack; but his apprehension
arose from the danger of an aggression on the part of
this country.—(Laughter, and cries of "Oh, oh,") That
apprehension was at least justified by past events, while
the theory of an unexpected attack to be made on us by
it friendly nation was unsupported by any facts in the
history of this country. His theory that the English
Government might pursue en interfering policy in
Europe was based, not on the doctrines of the Peace
Society, but on events which had already actually taken
place. If a foreigner of intelligence heard Ministers
talking of the chastity of our women, or the wealth
1 of our merchants being in danger from France, he
would believe England was about to embark on
an aggressive policy. This was not a time to
get up debates imputing to France concealed designs
of attack, and awakening her jealousies and fears.
He would not speak of the press; but such a course pur-
sued by men of eminence and Ministers of State was
calculated to bring on war. He could suggest no course
more likely to produce such a result—gentlemen going
down to the House of Commons and making speeches—
(Loud ironical cheering)—and without any facts—(Re-
newed cheers)—imputing, bad motives to a friendly
power.—(Continued cheering.) There was not a pretext
for this measure; for the Noble Lord the Member for
Tiverton had declared that when he had left the Foreign
Office there was perfect tranquillity.—(Hear.) The
militia were to be raised first by bounty. When the
men, however, had the money, how were they to be
secured? To lavish such an immense sum on so large a
number of men, and without any effective means of se-
curing their services, was really most unreasonable. Was
there to be a vacua abuse ea the charaeter of the En-
glish people, and their disposition to tulfil their engage-
ments?—(Loud cheers.) It would be far better to with-
draw the measure for more mature consideration on this
and other points.—( Hear, hear.) As to steam it was all
nonsense, for the question remained just where it was
before as to disembarkation. Steam enateled a hostile foe
to cross the sea quicker, hut not to land more easily; and
on the other hand, enabled us to transport our means of
defence more rapidly by railway. He should certainly
take the sense of the House on this proposition of 80,000
men.
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I do not rise to discuss
whose speeches are most calculated to promote hostili-
ties with foreign countries—(Laud cheers)—or encou-
rage and invite invasion.—(Renewed cheers.) I leave
that to the decision of the eublic.—(Continued cheers.)
But the Right Hon. Gentleman has misrepresented what
I said ors a former occasion.— (Hear, hear.) He repre-
sented ma to have stated that in January, 1814, we had
80,000 militia—[Mr. GIBsoN-82,000] —and 56,000 re-
gular troops in the United Kingdom, and that therefore
toe proposal now ma to for 80,000 militia and 56,000 re-
gular troops—[Mr. GIBSON-67,000]—will place the
country precisely in the same situation as in 1814. But,
Sir, my Right Hon. Friend appears to be ignorant of
the difference between an enrolled end an embodied mi-
litie—( dear, hear.) What I said was that, in 1814, we
had not 80,000, but 89,000—(Hear, hear)—militia—not
enrolled only, but embodied—(Hear, hear)—armed and
under discipline all the year round, and in ail respects
like the regular troops.—(Hear, hear.) That is not what
is proposed now.—(Hear, hear.) It is not proposed to
have a militia even of 80,000 embodied, but only en-
rolled.—(Hear, hear.) The parallel, therefore, totally
fails.—(Hear, hear.) The cases are utterly different.—
(Hear, hear,) And, Sir, it is to be remembered that
though 1814 was a year of war, the French had plenty
of employment in other parts of the world—(Hear, hear)
—and probably there was never a year in which there
was less chance of invasion.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GIBSON said he would, of coarse, submit to
the Noble Lord's correction as to the numbers of the
militia in 1814; hut the Noble Lord bad not contra-
dicted the other part of the statement, that in 1814 there
were only 56.000 regular troops in the United Kingdom,
whereas now there were 67,000, though that was a time
of war and this was a time of peace.—(Hear, hear.)
invasion was probable, now it was improbable.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord said the militia were
td
not to be embodied. Then it was only to be on paper.
—(No, no.) Then what
was it to be?—(Oh, oh.) If it
were not to be embodied, there
arebcinourd to payldbeno ethmeebrgoeunnctyy
and no hurry. It was eri
to t moneyhe mperrieeloy foofr
a
p enrolment. Why the 6/. just amounted
passageen America.—(oh, oh .)
m
Who could expect the to come back when it was
They could be off to America.
expected back again, why
military go on leave of
wanted to embody them?
bouer
--wo(Oniht,gohht.)as Iwf
etlhleylectoualldi
taoodfaeondd
tihtawt:
Mr. F. SCOTT said that foreigners woulsclo
absence.--(Divide.)
degraded
that naturallyd
t h etrhee-
suppose that the people of this country wore
design defenceless .—(Hear, that
thoefy:aonudldoneivnegnittte(limeaorn,ehye
e was utterly def . (Hear, hear.) Nothing
iOre, 1
Could be invite invasion more calculated ton and induce
attack.—(Hear, hear.) He deprecated such speeches,
much mischief and Crean, hhht as
pressions both at
tending to produceh
home end abroad.—(Hear.)
d into some titobservaons about the
Mr. HUM.. entered
cause f xation, anti
" country gentlemen" being the
I 'nne' of agricultural distress,
taunted them with.comp ,
inienancrag a cry of inva-
sion," at the same Valle COI
the pres 'eat measure, imposing
:don," which produced
If this measure were
ad-
ditional burdens upon the people'
id o the conty Members,
carried it would be by the a
out or
f
fog G relief
who were heretofore crying
.
nth,-
ly astonished that g
from the heavy burdens that pressed upon them
Mr. W. MILES was perfectly t
•
men who called on the Government to name a day for
dissolution should get up and deliver themselves of set
speeches, evidently intended for the second reading, _
in-
stead of confinirg themselves to the particular clause of
the Bill before the Committee.—(Hear.) If they were
to discuss the clauses let them strictly do se, but not make
speeches de omnibus rebus et quibusdant aliis.—(llear.)
Mr. RICH objected that so large a number as 50,000
men, out of the requisite 80,000, should be raised in the
present year by bouutv. They apprehended danger or
they did not. He wished to know, in case of an emer-
gency occurring, if tbey would prefer to rely on these
50,000 men, to an addition of 15,000 regular troops to
the army?—(Hear, and divide.)
Mr. J. EV &NS could not fancy gentlemen acting as
her Majesty's Government were “bout to act, if they

really were under a sense of danger. They would raise
150,n00 men this year by bounty if they could get them;
E, it they could not, they would do without them. The
compulsory clause was put off to the next year; why not
postpone the whole matter? What was to become of
the country in the interim?—(Hen:, hear.) Who could
tell if the invasion weeld not take place in the foggy
nights between this and Christmas.—(Hear, end laughter.)
Mr. WYLD opposed the Bill, as, in his opinion, its
only effect would be to place in the hands of the Govern-
ment a large amount of patronage.—(Oh, oh.)
After a few words from Colonel THOMPSON, who
also opposed the Bill,
Mr. COBDEN thought the statement of the Right
Hou. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the dome
Deportment, that the Government would not be able to
put this measure into force this year, a sufficient reason
for reporting progress. If this Bill could not compel
service in the militia, it was totally inefficient. Ho
should like to know what course the Noble Lord the
Member for Tiverton meant to take, after his assertion
that we might be invaded by 60,000 men from
Cherbourg in one night. But ho (Mr. Cobden) totally
denied that in Lancashire, Yorkshire, or Middlesex
there could be got together volunteers at 61. a
head; for men would not be found to leave their work
on such an errand. A more ridiculous waste of time
and money than this measure would entail he could not
conceive; and, considering the altered state of circum-
stanees, and the necessity of letting the public out of
doors know what they had been doing, he trusted they
would now consent to report progress..
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
not now stop to inquire whether the people of England
were the " vagabonds" they had been described to be by
the Hon. Member, or the " clod hoppers," as they had
been characterised by the Hon. Member for Man-
chester.—(Hear, hear.) It was somewhat remarkable,
that Hon. Gentlemen, who were so often appealing to
popular sympathy, and who boasted so of the privilege
of representing the people, should never speak of the
masses except in terms of contempt and contumely.—
(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Colleague of the Member
for Manchester said that none but vagabonds would
enlist in the service, because the people were rapidly
emigrating from this country. Probably the Right
Hon. Gentleman alight know something of the cause
of that emigration.—(Haar, hear.) When the motion
for reporting progress was made, he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) was anxious to know on what ground
Hon. Gentlemen contended that the whole principle of
the Bill had undergone a change.—(Hear.) Now, the
Bill was brought in on the principle of voluntary enlist-
ment, and he must say, after due deliberation and con-
sideration, and after receiving mach information upon
the subject, her Majesty's Government were satisfied
that a sufficient force by that plan could be got together.
--(Hear, hear.) From the principle of voluntary en-
listment there had been no departure.—(Hear, hear.)
And now, as to what his Right Honourable Friend the
Home Secretary had acid with regard to the ballot;
under ordinary circumstances it would take four months
to bring the ballot into full play.—(Hear, hear.) His
Right Hon. Friend, with the sanction of his colleagues,
and in deference to the House and the country—in an-
ticipation of another Parliament meeting within the
year—offered to insert a date in the Bill which would
secure to the new Parliament the power of interfering
if this point of the ballot was considered a cause of ap-
prehensien and likely to lead to unpopularity.—(Hear,
hear.) The offer made, then, could not be considered in
the slightest degree a deviation from the principle of the
measure, or from the policy which dictated it.—(Hear,
hear.) It was, he would not say a concession, but a dis-
position to meet an objection which might be made.
The assertion, therefore, of the Honourable Member
for the West Riding, that any change had
been made in the principle of the Bill, was one of
those exaggerations to which the Hon. Member so
often and so felicitously bad recourse—(Hear, hear;—
which, under other circumstances, had found consider-
able success, but which he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) trusted would not meet with so happy a result
on the present eccation.—(Hear and cheers.) This Bill
sought to establish a militia on the voluntary principle,
and that principle had been adopted in the conviction
that it was practicable.—(Hear, hear.) The Govern-
ment believed that principle would succeed, but in hav-
ing recourse to the ballot they did not practically deviate
from the plan first sketched.—(Hear, hear.) The bal-
lot would not be brought into operation, and by that
time the new Parliament would meet. The measure
was never intended to produce a disciplined force which
should be able to encounter the disciplined forces of the
great states of Europe; and the attempt to compare
such a force to the legions of Algiers or the armies of
the Caucasus was one which, he trusted, the Committee
would not encourage.—(Hear, hear.) This was a first
attempt to habituate the people of this country more to
the use of arms than heretofore. Irresistible circum-
stances had rendered such a policy necessary.—(Hear.)
If this Bill passed, although it would not produce a
force which could meet the veteran armies of the world,
it would lay the foundation of a constitutional system
i of national defence.—(Cheers.)
Mr. COBDEN repelled with indignation the insinua-
tions of the Right Hon. Gentleman—(Oh)—who had
charged him with having accused the people of this
country with being vagabonds.—(oll.) Be had too
much respect for the people of England to believe that
they would accept the bounty, and turn soldiers for 21
days. What he said was, that the people of Yorkshire,
Lancashire, and Middlesex, were too profitably employed
to engage themselves in such a manner. The mechanics
and artisans would not accept the bounty, and the men
they were likely to get would bo the " vagabondage" of
the country.—(Oh, oh.)
Colonel SIBI'IIORP trusted the Hon. Member's con-
stituents would remember the epithet applied to them.
But the Hon. Member would not think it politic to call
them " vagabonds" on the busting.
Mr. BRIGHT said the Chancellor of the Exchequer
seemed to think they weie making an unnecessary noise
and turmoil upon the question, when it was the fact that
he had made changes of importance in the Bill. The
House and the country, however, was of a different
opinion. He contended that a very important change had
been made, if not in the principle, at least in the details
and circumstances of the measure. Instead of making
himself absolutely certain that he could raise a force of
even 10,000 men, he leaves the defences of the country to
the chapter of accidents, and puts off the ballot to the
end of the year. The opinion of the most eminent mili-
tary men was that they could not raise the requisite
force by volunteering. They had entirely shifted their
ground, and abandoned that of urgency and danger,
and postponed all active measures till the 31st Decem-
ber. The Right Hon. Gentleman was unwilling to go
to the country upon the question of free trade
his (Ques
lion.) HO wished to appeal on the principles of gene-
ral policy, and, as the present measure was one of gene-
ral policy, he thought that portion of the Bill at least
which referred to the ballot ought to be postponed till
the electors would have an opportunity of
pronouncing
an opinion upon it. The Right Hon. Gentleman said
the object Was to accustom the people of this country,
more to the use of arms. He denied that that was tra-
velling in the right direction; and if there was anything
more than another that had rivetted the chains of
Europe, it was placing in the bands of these despotic
rulers large armies to crush the liberties of the people.
If that was the direction the Right Hon. Gentleman
meant to proceed in, he would be regarded as one of
the most mischievous rulers that that couotry had ever
known.—(Oh, eh!) He trusted he would withdraw
from the Bill the clauses that referred to the ballot, and
leave them to th© consideration of another Parliament.
Mr. WALPOLE was not surprised that Hon. Gentle-
men opposite would not receive the repeated assurances'
of the Government that they did not intend to have re-
course to compulsory service, unless they failed in ob-
taining voluntary tenders. The ballot, he repeated,
would not be put into operation until they were assured
that the voluntary enlistment would fail. The announce-
ment he had made was strictly in accordance with what
he had stated from the commencement—unless in case
of a threatened invasion the machinery for the ballot
would not be called into operation.—(Hear, hear.) Thet
was the whole announcement he had made, and it was
consistent with everything he had previously said. The
proposition of a Militia Bill was not brought forward
from any apprehension of invasion, but on the general
principle that a country like that should not be left in a
state of uudefence; and since there really was no appre-
hension of an invasion, that was the best time to provide
against danger, by a measure of provident precaution,
where no alarm or jealousy could be reasonably excited.
After a few words tram Mr. BASS,
Mr. CHARTERIS said he would not have ventured
to have brought forward a motion on this subject unless
he had consulted the opinions of some eminent military
men, who thought that 40,000 regular troops would be
more efficient than 80,000 militiamen. But inasmuch
as the Hon, Member for Manchester had taken up the
motion, ho felt himself in such a position that if the
Hon. Member persisted in his amendment he would sup-
port him.
Mr. HEY WORTH supported the amendment.
Mr. OSWALD said that even when the Noble Lord
the Member for Tiverton, instead of turning the other
cheek, smote the Noble Lord the Member for London
under the fifth rib—(Lauehter)—he was not tempted to
j the onslaught. Inasmuch as the House had de-
clared by a majority of about 150 in favour of the se-
cond reading, he would bow to that decision, and al-
though he was by no means favourable to the present
Government, he would support them in the present in-

stance.
Mr. M. GIBSON said, that all he proposed was than
the word " eighty" be struck out, leaving it to any
Hon. Member to propose to fill up the black as he
pleased.
Mr. J. EVANS said, that as the principle of the Bill
hstaadmtebrew.eThnitlffitih,cremed by a large majority of the House, he
was not, disposed to support an amendment that was
T.
calculated to destroy that principle.
UgLeLesAtieGreflraepapileyalwedastotbetthewCashbaeeririmae tb
Chairman to
House.
The Committee then divided, when there appnred—
Aye::
1N bss
Noes
Majoritywes tthen e 131
T h
filled up with the words " eighty
11°uisre.31)Nd b
IVALPOLE moved that the second blank be
of men to be raised for the fiaaatrnhtms tees
thatyear.hnhdolumo lu amendment
MLA up with the words " fifty thousand" as the number
erthreopaeodpfrrsttoebppt
etrolosebged,irgeobsbst:
j:
:Mat e rolci -
otov BRlGHT,epdrethateeed
the i
ehga
avcf;ebnharagair,
that as
Chairman
amnr 3
utou:diallarnkulimiLje!Eotfoa asiidt
men to be raised under the Bill, ho had
uo objection to fill up the second blank with the words
" fifty tbousad'' foroeryear;
Manchesterbut he hwoopurd tbhee
accededmot
i cn
of the hens Member
to by the Gov,-rnment.
o ELL R of the EXCHEQUER could
understand the propriety of deferring further discussion,
blank
if it were objected to fill up the se
The CHANCELLOR