The Sun.
London, England, 1864-05-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 7, 1864,

part of tho Irish people was spontaneous or not ? Until the
small German Powers had moved in the matter, there was
no enthusiasm felt for the Prince of Augustenburg in the
duchies; but of course when the German armies entered,
and drove out everybody favourable to Denmark, there was
wonderful unanimity on the part of those who remained for
the dominant side. (Oh.)
Mr. LAYARD said he would confine himself to answer-
ing the questions of his hon. friend, but ho would premise
that if the doctrine he had laid down—namely, that that
country was as populous now as she was at the time of
her dismemberment—were to prevail, it would be diffi-
cult to tell what the condition of Europe would become.
His hon. friend had not accurately quoted what he had said
on a former occasion with regard to the Estates of Holstein
and Schleswig, He 'nad not on that occasion pronounced
any absolute option as to whether or not the Estates had
the power to "discuss constitutional questions. What he had
said was, that it was supposed their powers were confined to
tho o.iscussion of local questions. His hon. friend had also
imputed to him the assertion that the Diet had not objected
to the question of the succession ; but the fact was, that
when Earl Russell made his proposal in 1862, that proposal
was accepted by the Diet as a satisfactory arrangement.
With regard to the spontaneity of the movement in the
duchies, it was manifest from the documents before him that
it had been brought about by German agents. What was
the testimony of Consul Renault on the point ? Consul
Renault stated that he had never heard any sentiment ex-
pressed against the King of Denmark, but, on the contrary,
the people said that if he had the power he had the will to
make his people happy and contented; and with the ex-
ception of the large landed proprietors there were but few
people in the duchies desirous of a separation from Denmark,
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Layard) maintained that the feel-
ing of the great majority of the people was in favour of Den-
mark; although he would not deny that they had certain
grievances. Her Majesty's Government had always repre-
sented to Denmark that she had not fulfilled her promises,
but was it because Denmark had not fulfilled her promises
that this country should not take her part ? What he main-
tained was that Austria, Prussia, and Germany, having ob..
tained all they had a right to ask before the war commenced,
for them to go to war under such circumstances was a glaring
and manifest injustice. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Grosvenor had
not been sent into the duchies to inquire as to the feelings of
the inhabitants. Ou the contrary, Mr. Buchanan had
warned her Majesty's Government against relying upon
the conclusions of that gentleman. As far as Mr. Grosvenor
was concerned, his conclusions were no evidence one way or
another. But, according to the information which hal
reached him (Mr. Layard) —indeed, it was a matter of
notoriety—there was certainly no desire in Schleswig to
elect the Prince of Augustenburg, or to separate entirely
from Denmark. That was the impression of all who took
the trouble to inquire into the true facts of the case. He
thought it was desirable at that stage of the proceedings to
avoid entering into fresh matters, as well as everything that
might impede the restoration of peace; and for that reason
also, he should object to the production of the papers
moved for.

Lord R. CECIL said, before the house passed from the
question, he desired to enter his protest, Although the
enormous majority of that house sympathised with Denmark
in this struggle—(cheers)—members had thought it wiser
in the existing negotiations, not to impede whatever ehane4
existed for the restoration of peace by entering with, un-
necessary vehemence into the discussions which
were got
-..hisanderstood
up. But he feared that reticence had been
by the hen, member for Buckingham H.Verney) and
the other partisans of Germany in tb house, whom, how-
ever, they might count upon tb_i;ir fingers—(cheers)—but
who, by their skill in ingenr.4. ty, had contrived to give the
people cut of doors a false
was a German party and delusive impression that there
in the House of Commons. (Loud
cheers.)
He wc.hld confine himself to trusting that no
one out of doo
is would entertain the impression that be-
cause the ;gild and chimerical statements of those gentle-
men wr.,re not contradicted, that therefore they were ad-
wit',ed. The discussion upon the subject could not be
taken until the negotiations were brought to a conclusion,
or without exposing to additional dangers those with whose
sufferings they most heartily sympathised. (Cheers.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE rejoiced in the speech of the
noble
lord, and expressed his conviction that, were it not for the
sea—on which England once had some power—the State of
Denmark would be swept out of the category of nations.
Sir H. VERNEY denied that he had expressed any sym-
pathy with Austria or Prussia, but only with tho inhabi-
tants of the duchies. (Oh, c 4.)
The motion was then withdrav,u.
UNDER-SECRETART.
-ES INDEMNITY BILL.
This bill passed thro,:igh committee,
LOCAL GOFER:NIMENr SUPPLEMENTAL ACT.
This bill was 'read a third time and passed.

NAVAL AGENCY DISTRIBUTION.
This hill, as amended, was considered.
VPPLY.

The report of supply was brought up and agreed to.
CHIEF RENTS, IRELAND (STAMPS).
This bill passed through committee.
INTOXICATING LIQUORS (SALES ON SUNDAYS)
Mr. SOMES, in moving for leave to bring in this bill,
said that the principal objection to the measure last year
had been closing public-houses all day on Sunday. In the
present measure he proposed to give the people facilities for
obtaining their dinner and supper beer by allowing the
public-ho'ases to be opened from 1 to 2 o'clock, and from 8
to 9o' dock in the evening. The bill, he said, was for the
beeiefit of working men and their families, many of whom
themselves prayed for this measure. Individually he
doubted whether the concession he now proposed would be
for their advantage. He made them, however, in deference
to the expressed opinion of the house, on whom he left the
responsibility of accepting or rejecting the measure.
Mr. PEASE seconded the motion, reminding the b-ee,
that the chief difficulty which philanthropic and rot'
:eiou
institutions had to contend with was the drinkir4
customsof the country. He hoped the house wot
l'fa agree to the
motion, for if they did they would fi
the clauses were not so objections in committee that
rights as many hon gentlemen N%ith regard to private
Mr. ROEBUCK woe seemed to imagine.
.: Id not detain the house for many
minutes, for there ware two thing
be brief—one tb s which compelled him to
:e lateness of the hour, and the other the
fact that th introduction of a bill was supposed to be a mere
matter '-ef courtesy. Ho had no financial hatred to this
me".eure ; his only desire was to protect his countrymen in
'che fair enjoyment of their rights and liberties. (Hear, hear.)
As for the question of courtesy, he begged the house to re-
collect that though the present was said to be a different bill
from that which was decided last year, it was in reality the
same. (Cries of " No, no," and cheers.) Hon. gentlemen
might cey "No, no," but before he had done he would prove
" yes." (A laugh.) The ground of this bill was two-
told. There was a body of people in this country who were
Sabbatarians; there was also a body of teetotallers. These
two muddy streams had concentrated. (A. laugh.) Running
side by side for a long time, they had at la2t united their
waters, and now they formed one foaming, muddy river,
which it was difficult to stem and very disagreeable to see.
[An Hon. Member—" And to smell." ii Aye, and to smell.
(Laughter.) These two sets of people had joined their forces
on the present occasion. Why did he oppose them ? First
and foremost, because this was a law for the poor and not
for the rich. (Cheers.) A rich, well-to-do man could have
his own beer or wine in his own house, he could draw his
beer or uncork his wine when he chose, but that was not
the case with a poor man. (Hear, hear.) Parliament
began with fiscal regulations. It had put a tax upon malt,
and he had always voted with the Chancellor of the Ex.
chequer on that subject, but he had always felt that he was
preventing the poor man having his own bear in his own
house and driving him to the publichouse. (Hear, hear.)
He wished the house to understand that every man who
went into a publichouse was not a tippler. (Cheers.) The
poor man who was compelled to go to the publichouse was
like the gentleman who sent down his butler for his glass
of wine when he wanted it. (Hear, hear.) If the hon.
member for Hull and his friends were really in earnest—if
they were anything more than canting hypocrites—(laugh-
ter)—they would propose a law for the rich as well as the
poor. (Cheers.) Not only would they shut up every pub-
lichouse—not only would they shut up the Star and Garter
at Richmond, and the Trafalgar at Greenwich, but they
would also shut up every club in London. (Cheers.) Would
they dare to introduce a bill for that purpose ? If not, how
could they presume to say they were the friends of morality
and justice ? (Hear, hear.) He spat upon their paltry pre-
tence. (Cheers and laughter.) He had no hesitation in
saying that those who were endeavouring to bring in this
bill under the guise of being the protectors of morality were
merely carrying out their own individual views respecting
the enjoyments of others. (Hear, hear.) "We are virtu-
ous," they exclaimed, "and therefore you shall have no
more cakes and ale." (Cheers.) The introduction of this
bill would create dissension throughout England. (Cries of
"No, no," and cheers.) "Yes, yes ;" it would create the
necessity on the part of those who thought as he did of
sifting the sentiments of the people of England, as they did
last year. The seconder of the motion had talked of repre-
senting a large constituency. He represented a still larger
constituency, and he oppose e the bill, (Hear, hear.) Last
session he presented a petition signed by 20,000 people, and
when he went down among his constituents during the year
what occurred ? Several gentlemen came to' him and said,
" Oh, this is a people's measure, and you must support it."
His reply was, Prove that to me and I will vote for the
bill." They had a meeting in the open air, and it was car-
ried against them by a majority of thousands. (Hear, hear.)
So much for this being a popular measuie. He represented
a set of hard working men who were confined to a smoky
town all the week, and, as he said to these gentlemen, if he
lived in Sheffield he should be very glad to get out on a
Sunday to breath a mouthful of fresh air. A working man
who had expended his week in hard labour was naturally
glad to get out of Sheffield for a few hours on Sunday, but
if the hon. gentleman's bill passed he would find the door
of every publichouse shut against Lim, The man was not
necessarily a tippler. What right had they to say to t',,t
man that ho should only have his luncheon at 1 oeelock
and not at 3, if he liked it best then ? Publichous'es in the country were only open now from Ito 3, and from 5 to 11.
What harm was there in that ? A working m
an in London
went out on Sunday for a few hours' recreaeion, and then
these sour gentlemen turned round on him., and said " You
ought to be at church." (Hear.) That was their creed--
that if they kept a man out of the publiclouse they sent him
to &lurch. If a rose were religiously inclined be went to