The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-26 00:00:00

FRIDAY

The LORD CHANCELLOR again repeated that he did
not expect such an opposition as this to the present clause,
especially as the view which he had taken of the existing
law was perfectly accurate.
Lord BROUGHAM objected to sending the Bill to a Se-
lect Committee, as he doubted if that proceeding would be

productive of any benefit.
The Bill then passed through Committee.
THE EAST INDIA CO%IPANY'S CHARTER.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH inquired if the Noble
Lord at the head of her Majesty's Government was prepared
to fix a day for the consideration of the East India Com-

pany's charter?
The Earl of DERBY replied, that he had already stated
he proposed to take the subject into consideration on Friday,
April 2.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said, he had observed in
one report, and in one only, of the remake in another place
of the Right Hen. Gentlemen the President of the Board of
Control, that it was his intention to state his views on the

subject of the East India charter on proposing the Committee
of Inquiry. He could hardly think his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Hari's), who had been so short a time in office, could
come to any final decision on so important a matter in such
a limited period. It would be a great satisfaction to him
to hear that his Noble Friend at the head of the Govern-

ment was not prepared to commit himself to any specific
arrangement or to the details of any measure in reference
to the East India Government without full inquiry.
The Earl of DERBY said he would state in general terms

the course her Majesty's Government thought it expedient
to take when he brought the subject before their Lordships,
but that he would not feel justified in entering into details
on that occasion, and that his observations would certainly
be of a very general character. He was anxious that the
Government should be guided in their final determination by
the information which was to be derived from the labours of
the Committees of Inquiry.
THE IRISH DEBT.

Lord MONTEAGLE moved for a Select Committee to
which shall be referred the Treasury minutes providing for
the debts due from the counties and unions in Ireland by the
imposition of a consolidated annuity for a period not exceed-
ing forty years. He did not mean to find fault with the
generosity or the prudence displayed by this country, and
the Parliament of this country, with reference to the noble
aid they had extended to Ireland, to enable her to meet
the most distressing calamity that had ever befallen any
country; but the subsequent arrangements which had been
come to with reference to the re-payment of advances to
Ireland itad been productive of great, if not permanent,
inconvenience. One of the mistakes most often heard in
discussion and met with in print was the assertion that
money advanced to Ireland was to be regarded as a gift for
the repayment of which it was useless to look ; whereas the
fact really was, that of the various sums advanced to
Ireland, under the Acts passed for the purpose within the
last few years, and which sums it had been asserted
were not vesy likely to be repaid, no less an amount
than 6,065,879/. had been repaid. And since the poor.
law had been introduced into Ireland, nOtwithcannA;ng
th. npou ,Liu country, sums amount-
ing in the whole to upwards of 7,000,000/. sterling had
been raised by Ireland out of her own resources for the
relief of the distress afflicting her people. Owing to the
peculiar circumstances of Ireland, and her being almost
wholly an agricultural country, the agricultural calamity of
a failure of crops had fallen on her with excessive hardship.
The value of land between 1841 and 1851 in Ireland had
exhibited a considerable decline. In the former year it
was set down at 13,076,000/. ; in 1851 it had fallen to
11,580,000/.—a fall of 1,500,0001., or 10 per cent. on the
whole. This decline in value had been experienced princi-
pally in Connaught and Munster, where, in a valuation of
5,199,0001., the fall was 1,026,0001. In like manner the
population had greatly decreased. In the period between
1641 and 1851 it had decreased 20 per cent., or

1,600,000 souls. Emigration had no - doubt con-
tributed to that result; but the emigration was of a pre-
judicial character, for the persons emigrating carried
away out of the country a greater amount of capital in pro-
portion to the capital of the whole country, than the
number of persons emigrating bore to the whole population
of the country. The consequence of this state of things
was that the country felt most severely the amount of rate
and local taxation, and that pressure was likely to be felt in
augmented degree under the operation of the Treasury minute.
The powers given to the Treasury were extravagant in their
nature. The Act did not provide for any Parliamentary
revision on the subject, and though objections were taken
by certain Noble Lords, and himself amongst the number,
they were precluded from proposing any amendment by the
fact of its being a money Bill. The Act was passed on the
17th of May, and the first minute was issued on the 4th of
June. That minute pointed out the mode in which the
money was to be repaid, as well as established the machinery
for its distribution ; and although the Treasury made the ad-
vances, and no account had been rendered the board of
guardians, yet when these bodies, upon repayment being de-
manded, begged vespectfully to be informed of what the
items consisted, the imputation was thrown out against them
that they refused to pay their just debts. The Noble
Lord then referred to the Labour-rate A.et, under which, he
said, a debt was contracted to the extent of more than
2,000,0001.; but that debt was so excessive that no indi-
vidual in his senses could by possibility have dreamt
that they would have the power of enforcing it. The ex-
penditure was not administered by any local authority
whatever, but by officers of the Government, appointed by
the Government, responsible to the Government, and acting
under the direction and control of the Government; and
there were some Noble Lords now present who well knew
that, when the gentry, landowners, and occupiers felt it ne-
cessary occasionally to call the attention of Government to
the abuses which were prevailing under the public-works
system, so far were they from receiving any of their state-
ments with candour or courtesy, that they were directed to
mind their own business.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He
granted that where there was such an army as 75,000 per-
sons employed, under the authority of 1,500 engineers and
officers, abuses would arise! but he made no imputatioa on
the gentlemen at the head of the Board of Public Works on
that account, for the operations were, undoubtedly, beyond
their management and control. Having observed that his
object in proposing an inquiry was to ascertain whether the
claims advanced were just claims, and in the next place
in what manner the 4,000,0001. sterling had been expended,
the Noble Lord concluded by moving the appointment of a
Committee.
The Earl of DERBY said, with regard to the proposition
for the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the
subject which his Noble Friend had brought under their
Lordships' consideration, he (the Earl of Derby) had no ob-
jection whatever to make. His Noble Friend had stated
very fairly the various charges which he had made against
the powers conferred by the Act of Parliament on the Trea-
sury for carrying on public works in Ireland. In some of
those charges he (the Earl of Derby) was ready to agree. In
the first place his Noble Friend had laid good ground for, at
all events, questioning the propriety of that portion of the
Act which gave encouragement to an extraordinary expen-
diture on the part of the unions, the effect of which would
enable those unions to evade the just repayment of their
debt to the Treasury, no meant that provision of the
Act which declared that the payment of the annuity should
cease whenever the rates, not only in the union, but in any
particular division of the union, should reach to a certain
amount. That was a point which deserved consideration.
Another point was also deserving of consideration, namely,
whether there might not be some allowance made in those
cases where there had been a considerable and unavoidable
waste of money, and where the works themselves had not
been of a beneficial character, nor under the control of any
local authority; though, at the same time, they were works
undertaken to give employment to and to keep alive large
portions of the population, who, if such works had not
been undertaken, would have been left unemployed
and in a state of utter deetitution. He (the Earl of
Derby) also concurred with his Noble Friend in
the opinion that it was but right, when charges were
made by the Government against any particular unions
fur the repayment of advances, that a full account of the
particulars of those charges should be furnished. What
should be deemed a satisfactory account would be matter of
consideration for the Committee. No doubt the Commit-
tee would fairly examine into the case of each
union, and weigh the facts deliberately, both on one
side and the other. He was glad to hear his Noble Friend
state that there was no intention on the part of Ireland to
alrseklatoordaforerjustly due from the people of
Lad actually received valise.
On the other hand, he (the Earl of Derby) could assure his
thehic
h debtthe
they
a
Noble Friend that the Government was quite prepared to
give full consideration to the nature of the claims arising
oat of charges over which the population of Ireland had net
mthissatiofnorofw
been able to exercise any controul ; and to make all due al-
lowance for any abuses which had prevailed in the expendi-
ture of the money which had been advanced to meet those
charges. At the same time, he must beg their Lordships to
bear in mind that, if there had been abuses in the expenditure
of those advances, there had, on the other hand, been very
large sums expended which had produced great good to the
people of Ireland. This fact ought to be set against any
misapplication of moneys which might in other instances
have occurred. It was not because they might prove that
in certain parts of Ireland abuses had prevailed, that, there-
fore, there existed a claim on the part of the whole of Ireland
for a remission of those advances. To the extent of the
abuses he admitted there existed a claim to consideration,
but, on the other side, equal fairness demanded that where
great aid had been supplied to the people of Ireland in their
utmost need, on those portions of the country the Govern-
ment had claims for repayment which neither justice nor
equity could resist. It would be the duty of the Committee
to be appointed to examine and sift these accounts, and
strike a balance fairly and justly between the parties.
Having done so, it would then be their duty to report to
their Lordships the result, with a view to some further Par-
liamentary provision being made on the subject. The Noble
Earl concluded by saying he had no opposition to make to
the present motion.
The Earl of GLENGALL thought the appointment of a
Committee would be regarded with satisfaction in Ireland.
'There was a debt of 4,500,0004 to be paid by the Irish peo-
ple; but 7,500,0001. were claimed, including interest—inte-
rest at rather a Jewish rate. It was morally impossible for
Ireland to sustain the enormous load of taxation imposed on
her. There were counties where 55., 65., or 7s. in the pound
were charged. 58., 65., or 75., in the pound ! Why, where
was the pound? The pound was not there. Whole tracts of
land were left without a beast upon them, or without a blade
of corn. He spoke of counties in the west of Ireland espe-
cially. They could not support their poor, though they levied
as much as possible off the face of the earth. Nobody would
buy in those counties. An Encumbered Estates Act was in-
vented for the purpose of bringing new settlers to those parts.
Those were the very parts to which new settlers had not
gone. A plantation must have been established consist-
ing of new people, and no difficulty in carrying out the un-
ertaking would now arise from the necessity of supplanting
the old population, for the whole population were either
gone to America or were dead. The rates levied were no
test of the wants and requirements of the poor. Last year
there were 780,000 persons in the workhouses, a greater
number absolutely than in 1848. Pauperism might be said
to be increasing. Nobody wanted labourers, because the
cultivation of grain had been given up. The people were
therefore compelled to go into the workhouses, where they
died exactly at the rate of a thousand a-week. And no
wonder; for they got one meal of that nasty filth called
Indian corn," which produced dysentery. That was what
was called supporting the poor through the system of Mr.
Nichols, which had been so lauded as an admirable system.
The existing state of matters was attributable, he repeated,
to the want of employment— to that " displacement of la-
bour " to which Sir R. Peel alluded when he said he did not
believe so large a number of persons could be reduced to
_
indigence and destitution by any cause as "by a au dea
ddisplacement of so large an amount of labour
were
em-
ployed in the cultivation of wheat." There
and
139,000 acres under wheat cultivation in Ire
f 1 300,0001.
less in 1850 than in 1847, involving a value o
From 1841 to 1845 there were transported frosal6reland to
to
England 14,600,000 quarters of grain ; frost 184
uarlterBso
there were exported in like manner 7,b00,
000 cireceding
exactly one-half of the quantity exported in the
.1845,p was
period. The deport of flour from Ireland,
in
Coming to
775,0•0 quarters; in 1850, 168,000 quarters.
the great trade in bacon, the House woulds find,
only that,
09,000. in 1847,
I
Ireland exported 480,000 pigs ; and, in 150
01 or 4,000,0(91.
.
The loss might be estimated at 3°l)o° inh had involved
annually. In the salt provision trade, wh.
St contracts were
hundreds of thousands of pounds, tie gre