The Sun.
London, England, 1852-12-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS—{YESTERDAY.)
• Their Lordships met at 5 o'clock.
(At.rhe motion of the Duke of NORTHUMBER-
•Lord Lyndhurst presided in the absence of the
Lord Chancellor.
the Duke of NEWCASTLE presented petitions from
l Mechanics' Institutions of Nottingham and Mans-
aeld, praying to be furnished with copies of the reports
and other papers laid before the house.
t. The Earl of St. GERMANS presented a similar peti-
tion from Saltash, and the Duke of Northumberland
ckle from Derby.
INCOME TAX ON IRISH PROPERTY.
; The Earl of WICKLOW moved for returns respect-
'ng the payment of income tax in this country in respect
°.I property in Ireland. The noble lord said that
.28 object in moving for these returns was to re-
re the erroneous impression that property in Ireland
Treiguot pay income tax. The real fact was, that though
Ireland Was nominally exempt from the income tax, yet
thersons residing in this country had to pay the tax for
?ir property in Ireland ; and Irish property, therefore,
144 no inconsiderable amount, though, owing to the
Tanner of making up the accounts and returns, the fact
nenot actually apperr on them. It was much more
tessary that such should no longer be the case, now
hat there was every probability that the income was
about to be proposed as a permanent source of revenue.
pia lordship expressed himself as favourable to the ex-
nslon of the tax to Ireland, provided that such a course
Were Coupled with a removal of other inequalities exist-
mg with regard to the financial burdens of the country.
The Earl of DERBY said—l can have no objection
°ll the part of the Government to lay upon the table the
papers moved for by the noble lord, if they will afford
bun, which I doubt, the information he requires. I re-
!et that my noble friend did not favour me with his pre-
eise 'views before this, in order that by inquiries I might
have ascertained whether the return he desires contains
the desired information. My own impression is, that the
ille°llle tax papers remain on the same footing as they
,
on former returns, and consequently he will not find
aTY distinction drawn between Irish property and colo-
11411' I only speak from a vague recollection of having
seen the income tax returns when presented for my sig-
ilatare- I was obliged to return nil for my property in
I 414", not having received a single shilling from my
estates in that country for the last four or five years ;
but,
on the contrary, I found the balance considerably
the other way, being obliged to remit considerable sums
stead
of receiving them. My lords, I hope you will
ih-lense me from entering into the policy of changing the
Le°nle tax, or of extending it to Ireland. There will be
abundant time for the discussion of the details arising
°tit of the income tax when that measure will be sub-
mitted in the shape of a bill from the other house. The
noble lord has correctly stated the principle he believes
iteo Government to be guided by in the various measures
tight forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He
°as
to correctly stated that it having been deemed expedient
. .
dinumsh to a considerable extent the amount and
pressure of indirect taxation, it follows as a necessary
thnsequence that a considerably increased proportion of
fllle revenue of this country should in future be drawn
ni the sources of direct taxation. (Hear, hear.) The
Si?ble lord has, moreover, correctly interpreted the wish
ti the Government, that as far as jDossible just exemp-
-4°llB should take place, avoiding those only which are
°' founded in justice, and the excuse for which can only
there the impossibility o
of
feir collection. Thus
are a numerous portion needy proprietors who
Ze not exempted so much upon the ground of strict jus-
ele' as upo'n the impolicy, as well as impossibility, of
Fuecting the tax. Subject to the exemptions I have re-
trted to, I quite agree that in direct taxation the exemp-
°llB should be as few as possible, and that the area of
taxation should be as wide, as general, and as equitable
117 Possible. (Hear, hear.) On the part of the Govern-
ent *we have thought it was inexpedient, and, looking
kisTe distressed position of the landed property in Ire-
t7u, that it was inconvenient and impolitic, to subject
t country to the burden of a tax from which she has
one heretofore exempt. The question, after all, is only
Ilse of time. If the income tax is to become a perma-
C 4 source of revenue, it cannot be expedient that so
e a portion of the empire as Ireland should be
Lateulpted from it for more than a temporary. period.
ear, hear.) There was a claim made upon the part of
d e landed. property in Ireland for exemption, and it was
that
that she should be exempted so far as relates to
t description of property which has suffered so severely
the circumstances of late years. (Hear, hear.) The
to question, namely, the extension of direct taxation, subject
this
few exemptions as possible, is the subject which at
Zs moment engages the attention of the House of Com-
Os* It is a question, in the main, which I hope will
solved in the course of the present week. It is a
question of deep and vital importance to the permanent
toterests of the empire. Ido not now speak of any per-
eal consequences from that solution attaching to the
ituivernment, although I am quite sure that your lord-
-4,,,Ps will think that the decision of the House of Cora-
-4,,",„n5) 'whatever it may be, cannot be without important
immediate consequences upon the position of the
ti:vernment itself. But lam speaking upon the ques-
II with relation to the permanent interests of the
gantry, with regard to which I hold the decision of the
°use of Commons to be of the most vital importance.
"ZY lords, I earnestly hope, as soon as practical, Parlia-
Ziellt will relieve the country from the anxiety under
Ircli she now labours, while awaiting the decision of the
°llse of Commons on this question. For, undoubtedly,
not desiring to hurry or accelerate the proceedings of the
C'ther Rouse of Parliament, so as to preclude them from
4ecittl„e or full consideration, not of each petty and minute
au, but of the great and broad principle involved in
tie present deliberations, I think it is of great import-
ee to the country that she should not be kelft long in
alal,sPense as to the course which Parliament will adopt ;
,LLII with regard to the hands by which that system
ill be likely to be carried out. (Hear, hear.) As far
,n the House of Lords is concerned, I regret that, in
4-a,sequence of the discussions which have taken place,
le; tile delay which has occurred— but I do not cora-
ahrl that--that it is necessary for your lord-
to PS to meet, day after day, with little or no business
tat transact, and, after sitting for a few minutes,
fit.e4a, to adjourn. lam anxious, as soon as the decision
aS ":;_e Rouse of Commons shall be pronounced—as soon
b°\'nese resolutions are affirmed, if affirmed they are to
atto release you from what I cannot but consider an
galleeessary attendance. (Hear, hear.) But while the
ab,,estinu, and the questions contingent on it, are still in
la,nce and are still undecided, I should not, I think,
ene„,l°lng my duty to deprive the Crown for any length-
Cm. Period of the possible attendance of this house and
bee other house of Parliament at a time when it might
ain:ileeessary to have recourse to their immediate advice
tp,assistance. (Hear.)
-,-lute returns were then ordered.
MONTEAGLE said that they were not now
Ni,e'erring for the first time into a course of peril, but they
tut.' Persevering in a course of great danger by substi-
Itig the principle of direct for that of indirect taxation.
noble friend the Postmaster-General would remem-
pei that this was not the first time that he had raised his
the rhi protest to this principle. He did not say that
etsc! Should be no direct taxation, but where a revenue
8 A 4,000,000/. had to be raised annually, and where
MO AA
sh,„ ,ouo/. of that was not subject to reduction in any
thje,,he did consider that indirect taxation would be
stn,„.°lltY means to accomplish it without ruinously pres-
ent'', upon the industrious classes. He was not an advo-
tut against direct taxation, but against the entire sub-
pe;titlon of direct for indirect taxation. When the pro-
lt bland income tax was proposed iu 1842, he supported
attZuse he thought it was justified by the circumstances
tieß.:'ng upon its proposal. By a combination of par-
the In the other house last session, it was agreed that
the income tax should be voted for one year only, with
vi,hoi'tinet pledge from the Government that the
cera e subject should be fully gone into by a select
lamlllittee. Was the direct tax, now proposed to be
to r: Perpetual, called for ? The Government was about
11-Peal the, malt tax by one-half. At whose bidding ?
or wad not been demanded by the petitions of the people,
the th earnestness on the part of any one. It, as well
aqsubstitution of a direct tax, were the mere gratuitous
eapar the Government. If ever there was a question
the le of being reasoned to demonstration it was that
Inilirntesent Government were making a sacrifice of two
vronfdan and a half of revenue under circumstances which
Posal„ Yield them no corresponding return. The pro-
Contained in the budget would neither benefit the
Poke nor the lower classes. The Government pro-
but nn°t only to substitute direct for indirect taxation,
natin.: substitute for a direct tax, temporary in its
°Ppo,,L.' one that would be permanent. If the noble earl
Rrent:"e had a personal enemy, he could not wish him a
sure evil than the carrying of the whole of his mea-
payi and being represented in consequence in every tax-
gouszleguse as the author of the hew property and
waste tax, and as a member of a Government which had
i.twaili2,soo,oool. in an act of kindness to a class which
th not benefit. The noble lord concluded by mo. v-
the e following returns :—Detailed accounts showing
Statagtp°BBB and net amounts received of the revenue ofExcise,
e°ll and Taxes during each of the -last ten-years_;_ac
ten , showing the
-amount applied during each of the last
showijears in reduction of the National Debt ; account
the g tile amount advanced and repaid during each
forksl.ast ten years by the Commissioners for Public
alade, account showing the state of the national debt
fr.% t_ ___up to January, 1852, distinguishing permanent
ties 'mlinable debt ; account showing the several du-
last to taxes imposed and repealed during each of the
of eae,s Years, showing the actual or estimated amount
Whetl nd distinguishing the duration of such taxes,
eatlll7., a
Ltemporary or permanent.
e4sarl of DERBY considered it a very inconveni-
Rilnajeeetelfi°lOfe4.thoielinlizai.
tillthieeouaoszuftrietohsti mere motion for papers, to which no
opportunitybeoffe enter
rnatneyr
innotbolea ldoiradeu
'tot.°
:to lahreers eat not evenlt wouldyet
have thehe e
nc othsn sas
ndanevuraaeoihfl-
res'e the
plan if the noble lord had proceeded by
to have condemned, by way of anticipation,
posed
Whole course of policy which the Government pro-
'-eed to/
irtions Pursue, or had waited till the substantive pro-
, itne before their lordships for consideration.
F;NhiLl'red, herefore,. that his noble friend would not
the pren_rrn as treating him with any disrespect if, in
Uoze, eat state of the house (there were about half a
.!:ate drerss present) he declined to enter into an elabo-
ortTl slon of the consequences of the financial po-
aliestue Government. He declined to enter into the
It tai,,,,,Gte the extension of direct taxation, or how far
the e6uuri‘!) considered desirable to rest the revenue of
cillestioa7Y upon direct or indirect taxation. The whole
had been admitted to be merely one of degree,