The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-28 00:00:00

AMEN T

render men who passed their whole time in pursuits of
trade and toil competent to control the representation of
a country.—(Hear, hear.) And it was notorious that
large bodies of men were most easily influenced and be-
came often mere mobs. There was a question which
was of great importance, and well worthy of considera-
tion on this subject—that of colonial representation.—
(Hear, hear.) It should be recollected that the facilities
for communication were now greater between the mother
country and some of her colonies than used to exist be-
tween different parts of this country itself.—(Hear, hear.)
And without expressing any opinion upon these various
suggestions, he threw them out for the consideration of
their Lordships and of the country, as entitled to some
attention.—(Hear. hear.)
The Earl of DERBY said—My Lords, my Noble
Friend had no occasion to apologise for bringing under
your Lordships' consideration a subject of great import-
ance, and deriving additional importance from the great
respectability of the names attached to this petition.—
(Hear, hear.) Tho subject, my Lords, is perhaps one
which would more fitly be mooted in the other House;
but, at the same time, my Noble Friend has done good
service in introducing it to the consideration of your
Lordships, of the other House, and of the country.—
(Hear.) Without expressing any positive opinion, I
concur in many of his observations as to the present con-
stitution of tho House of Commons, and the effects pro-
duced by the changes consequent upon the introduction
of the Reform Bill. There has resulted from that mea-
sure, and from the abolition of the absolutely indefensi-
ble system of close boroughs, increased difficulty upon the
part of men not:previously known in the world, and not
possessing peculiar fluency of speech, or profes-
sing extreme views likely to recommend them to
large popular bodies—there has been greater difficulty
in the way of their getting access to the House of Corn-
mons.—(Hear, hear.) I agree also that there were of
old means by which science and the colonial interests
were indirectly represented in Parliament—(Hear,
hear)—and .means by which young men disposed to
avail themselves of the advaneages of a seat in the
House of Commons, not for the purposes of amusement,
but of really entering into the service of the country,
might find admission into that assembly, and there
make for themselves a name and character which might
subsequently recommend them to the notice of larger
constituencies.—(Hear, tear.) And I agree that men
previously unknown, and of moderate and temperate
opinions, may find in these days more difficulty than is
desirable in becoming members of the Legislature.—
(Hear, hear.) I agree further, my Lords, in thinking
tbat it is not right or expedient that everything should
be referred to mere numbers.—(Hear.) In whatever way
you distribute the constituencies there must always be
a large minority to a certain extent unrepresented;
and, indeed, the absolute majority of the country
may not be represented, for the majority of
Members or seats may not represent the majority of
electors—there may be small majorities in some places
one way ceunterbalanced by large majorities in other
places the other way.—(Hear, hear.) But, my Lords,
I do not see in what way, under any system of popular
government, it is possible to escape that difficulty.—
(Hear, hear.) You must be regulated by the aggregate
of votes of the representatives of respective constituen-
cies. 'But I agree that, if it be necessary to make any
new distribution—to fill up vacancies arising from the
alterations which the times may require—it would be-
unwise to look to the single question of numerical ma-
jority—(Hear, hear)—without taking into account the
question of property, and (as far as it can be considered
in legislation) the question of intelligence.—(Hear,
hear.) The numerical majority is that which commends
itself to the popular opinion as one which is most easily
ascertained. Next in difficulty is the question of pro-
perty. But the most difficult is the other—how to se-
cure such a Legislature as shall give a due balance
to intelligence, either in every constituency, or by
system recommended by the petitioners, of
having Members who shall assume exclusively
to represent the intelligence of the country.
My Lords, I am far from saying that, though I think
there is difficulty in introducing that element to a great
extent, it would be desirable to introduce to a greater
degree the principle of representing intelligence and
education apart from mere numbers.—(Hear, hoar.)
Bat I apprehend that there would be considerable diffi-
culty in bringing the principle into practical operation.
To a certain extent it is adopted by the constitution
of the Houso of Commons as it stands, in assigning
seats to the three Universities—of Oxford, Cambridge,
and Dublin; and if there were any other bodies suffi-
ciently numerous (for I think we cannot altogethersover-
look the question of numbers in considering the popular
representation), and sufficiently separate and distinct—
as scientific bodies, for instance—l think such bodies
would have a claim for the consideration of the Govern-
ment in the re-organizetion or amendment of our repre-
sentitive system.—(Hear, hear.) On the part of the Go-
vernment I can assure my Noble Friend that the subject
has not escaped their attention, and on a recent occasion
I anxiously sought for the means of making an addi-
tion to tne constituency. There are, however, I repeat,
great practical difficulties in the way. For instance,
take the case, of the Scotch universities. There are three
or four of them, some the very reverse of numerous, and
all of them together not containing materials for a very
large constituency (supposing we considered only the
graduates), and if we grouped them together for the pur-
pose of representation, the smaller ones might not, per-
haps, consider it a boon, for they might apprehend that
the general interests of science might be overborne by the
particular interests of the larger universities, or their
preponderating opinions on political or other subjects.
Then, agaiue my Lords, there are the inns of court,
bodies ever capable of furnishing a most respectable and
valuable constituency—(Hear, hear)—and probably of
returning to Parliament a very useful Member. It
might be highly honourable to a lawyer to be returned
by these societies rather than by some popular constitu-
ency, receiving his election as a mark of approval on the
part of those belonging to his own profession, and
sitting peculiarly as the representative of the law.
But, my Lords, I must say, that, of all classes,
those who find the least difficulty in obtaining seats in
the House of Commons are theelawyers.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) The tendency seems really to be to that whicb
has been found in other countries productive of mischief
—too great an infusion of professional men in thenepre-
sentation of the people.-(Hear, hear.) For these gen.
tlemen, in '° going circuit,"
have opportunities of making
themselves known—bringing
themselves before the pub-
lie, and forming acquaintances, and acquiring local in-
fluence. Still, my Lords, Ido not say that the inns of
court would not form a constituency entitled to great
consideration. With respect to learned or scientific so-
cieties I am afraid there would be more
of a suggestion ore difficulty. Be-
fore noticing them I must at once di.
otuehnacyve.—a
do of erecting all retiredmilitary
a ItP a
wouldr 1 utm e nt ary
never constituency..._
I perceive has been ma _.
or naval officers into
(Hear, and a l g
aue h.)'United Service" 'Club.—
member for " The . ._ (Laughter.)
as to scientific and learned Now, my Lords, . , be a difficulty so-
wouia
cieties, there
the line between them so as to arrange which of them
' .
d entitled to representation, and there
should be deemed entitled
grouping them '
would be difficulty in together for that
hear.) And, my Lords, lam not sure
purpose.—(Elear,
of the politicalelement.
that the introductionlikely to conduce to
into their
societies would be their harmony.
I Take the cases, for
(Hear, hear.) instance, of the
Colleges of Physicians
and Surgeons. It would be ien-
a Member, and •
possible
to give to each , if they both
returnedto-
one, the result would be, I fear, to cause
gether dissensions between them.
jealousies andbody, I doubt whether it And as to
each particular
the power of
their benefit to
havelean hear)— d returning a Member
of Parliamenn—C
the and whether they would
the worse for infusion of political feeling thus
not be
d It would be impossible to give eachof h
cause •
Member; it would be difficult to d t ese so-
cieties a
of course it raw the line
between them, and
posst 'We to combine them altogether into one body for
e of forming a Parlieme
the Plop" la r for this ntary constituency,
uniting toget e , „ . Purpose the Geographical So-
d the Royal bociety, and the • "
Statistical Society,
cietY, an ,
ical Society, and
and the Botanical
4, ) Moreover, my Lords, although
laugh,) -
a their constitution learned • •
fthese societies
are lor scientific bodies, they
coinprise many persons who have no special claims to
a character for science or learning—(gear, hear)—
of rank deeming it an honour become members
men to ecome members
of them; and if the additional inducement were held oat
of beeonaieg members of a Parliamentary constituency,
the introduction of members for the purpose of thus ac-
quiring votes might ultimately endanger therevious
p
objects of the societies.—(Hear, hear.) The whole ques-
tion, then, as to these institutions is• embarrassed by
great difficulties.—(Hear, hear.) Then, my Lords, as to
the subject of colonial representation; it is one undoub-
tedly of great importance and also of difficulty.—(Hear,
hear.) Bat if the object could be attained—more par-
ticularly sines the alteration of 1833, and the conse-
quent abolition of indirect colonial representation—it
is one well worthy of the consideration of the Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) If by any means such, a
system could be devised as should fairly secure the
representation of different interests, and bring
before Parliament tho questions affecting the material,
sociel, and political welfare of the colonies, a groat ad-
vantage would no doubt be gained.—(Hear, hear.) It
would create an additional tie between the mother coun-
try and the colonies—(Hear)—and secure the advan-
tages now inadequately attained by the exertions of
amateur colonial legislators, who are not always most
discreet, even if the most zealous, advocates of the colo-
nies to which they attach themselves,—(Hear, and a
laugh.) There weuld, however, be considerable diffi-
culty in carrying• out the plan—difficulty as to the mode
in which the returns should be, made, and the manner
in. which the members should,repreeaut separate or con-
current colonial interests.—(Elear, hear.) To have a
member from each colony would of course be practically
impossible, and to arrange the grouping of the coloured
constituencies would be necessarily a matter of great
delicay.--(Hear, hear.) My Lords, I cannot upon
these I
concur
in .a, great portion of the observations of toy Noble
y
Friend. And if I could see my way in any
alterations hereafter made in our representative
system, or any additions to be made
consti-
tuencies—if I could see my way
to
the
to our e
introduction,
in a greater degree, of the element
telligence, I the
should think ter education and
object—difficultin-
as I
deem it to be—well entitled t
gislature.—(lear.) And I o the attention of the Le-
certainly feel that it may be
desirable to to do something
which may neutralise the
prevailing tendency to throw power in the hands of not
the most intelligent or educated classes, but the most nu-
merous—and lam afraid in many cases the most easily
misguided portion of the community. My Lords, I re-
peat, I did not rise to express any positive opinions
even on my own part, still less to express the opinions
of my colleagues; and, perhaps, I have already gone fur-
ther than I ought, but I only desired to convey toy
sense of the importance of the subject.—(Hear.) Myo
Noble Friend has not introduced any proposition
man
this occasion to your Lordships, and, therefore,
will have the
only say that the subject is one which ,
„_____
at nu 0 Aim°
se `best attend= of the Ugyerilaaeut; and th
• - - . .. •• , ..• ..• .. __.

and prop9r occasion, when any definite preposition may
be submitted to your Lordships, they will be ready to
consider it.
The petitions were then laid on the table.
CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE gave notice that ho
should, on Monday week, movo the second reading of
this Bill.

POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS.
The Marquis of CLANRICAIWE gm notice of a
question for the same day respecting our postal arrange-
ments with France.
BUINESS OF THE HOUSE.
The Earl of IDERBY gave notico that he should (to-
day) move the adjournment of the House to Thursday
nezt, and should propose (as there was no measure of a
pressing nature before them) that no business of im-
portance should be taken until Monday week—the ob-
ject of his moving that the House meet on Thursday
being to proceed with crivate business and appeals.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 27.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock,
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following Bills were read a third time and passed:
Beacon field and Redhill Road.
Eaitern Union Railway.

Humber Conservancy r:nd Kingston-upon-Hull Docks.
Kettering and Northampton Road.
Kingston and Sheetbrrige Roads.
Kingston•upon•Hull Dues and Docks.
Manchester 'louse of Recove,ry._

Nene Valley Drainage and Navigation Improvement.
The following Mils were considered and agreed to:—
Corris, Machynlleth, and River Dovey Railway, with
Branches.
Great Western Railway (No. 2).
London and North-Western, and Buckinghamshire

Railways.
Monmouthshire Railway and Canal.
Shrewsbury and Birmingham Railway.
Shrewsbury and Cnester Railway.
Swansea Local Board of Health.

Wycombe Railway.
Clarkson's Estate and the Pimlico Improvement Bills
were read a second time and ordored to be committed.
WEXFORD HARBOUR.

Mr. SULLIVAITmoved that the Wexford Harbour
Improvement Bill be re-committed to the Committee to
whom it was originally referred; that the Committee
have leave to sit and proceed to-morrow, at twelve
o'clock; three selected Members to form a qaorum.
Mr. STAFFORD said the Admiralty would remain
neutral upon this question; they would neither oppose
nor support the motion, but leave it fur the House to de-
cide whether or no the Bill should be re-committed.
Sir WILLIAM MOLES WORTH opposed the mo-
tion as chairman of the former Committee.
After a brief conversation, in which Mr. M'Cullagh,
Mr. Wilson Patten, and Mr. Reynolds took part, the
opposition was withdrawn, and the motion agreed to.
PETITIONS.
Sir JAMES DUKE presented a petition from the
City of London against the Maynooth grant.
Sir W. VERNER presented twenty petitions from
the county of Cavan, in Ireland, to the same effect.
Mr. ELLIS presented a petition from Aylesbury
against church rates.
Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from Warwick-
shire against the Maynooth grant.
Mr. B. CABI3ELL presented a petition in favour of
ocean penny postage.
Mr. REYNOLDS presented a petition from the Irish
League in Manchester, praying for the repeal of the Ec-
clesiastical Titles Act.
Mr. HUME presented apetition from Newbury against
church-rates.
Mr. PORTER presented a petition from Hampshire
against the post horse duty.
Mr. BOOKER presented a petition from Hereford-
shire, praying the House to take steps to secure the in-
spection of nunneries.
Mr. HORSMAN presented a petition from Plymouth,
praying the House to address her Majesty upon the sub-
ject of issuing a commission to revise the Book of Com-
mon Prayer.
Mr. B. CARTER presented a petition from Winches-
ter in favour of ocean penny postage.
Lord D. STUART presented a petition from Maryle-
bone, praying for the repeal of the attorneys' certificate
duty.

• DROPPED ORDERS.
The dropped orders and notices of motion were re-
appointed.

SIGNALS OF DISTRESS.
Mr. MACGREGOR moved for copies of all letters, and
answers thereto, sent from the Admiralty to Mr. Robert
Rettie, the inventor of the coloured lights system of
signals for saving collisions of vessels at sea, showing
signals of distress, ships at anchor, &c., when in Scot-
land and in England, since 1842 to 1852; when be was
entered on board the navy or the books of the Rattler
steam-frigate, and at Woolwich and Portsmouth, where
the various trials took place, under the Go►ernment tof
Sir Robert Peel: and of the various memorials to the
Admiralty from tho different ports and steam navigation
companies for their adoption.—Agreed to.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

A messenger from the Lords brought up the follow-
ing Bills, to which their Lordships have agreed:—
Stock in Trade.
Highway Rates.
Porthdinllaen'and Nanthwynant Roads.
Eastern Counties and Newmarket and Chesterford
Railway Companies.
Southarn to Kineton Road.
Romsey, Broughton, Stockbridge, and Wallop Roads,
without amendment.
Athlone Markets and Customs, with an amendment.
Newmarket Railway.
Lancaster Waterworks, Cemetery, and Gas, with
amendments.
Property-tax Continuance.
York and North Midland and East and West York-
shire Junction Railways.
Dumfries and Maxwelltown Waterworks.
Haw Bridge and Roads.
Bedford and Kimbolton Road.
Deeside Railway, without amendment.
South Essex Estuary and Reclamation, with amend-
ments.

Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ardrossan Railway, with
an amendment.

ACCIDENT IN MINES.
On the motion of Mr. CAYLEY, it was agreed
that a Committee should be appointed to inquire
into the causes of accidents in mines, with the view of
devising some means to render them less frequent.
SENTENCING A BRITISH SUBJECT TO DEATH
Y A FOREIGN R.
Lord DUDLEY ed
STUART wishPOW toE ask the Noble
Lord the Under-Secretary for the Colonies a question, of
which he had given notice, namely, whether theattention
of Government had been called to the case of Mr.
Murray, a gentleman of English descent, whose ances-
tors had served in the British army, and who himselt
had held a commission under the Crown. This gentle-
man, after being imprisoned for a period of two years in
Rome, had suddenly been brought to trial before a secret
tribunal, end sentenced to death for a political offence.
Now, what ho wanted to know was, whether the Go-
vernment intended to take steps to prevent that Sentence
being put in force?—(Hear, hear.)
Lord S LANLEY said it was quite true what the Noble
Lord had stated. Mr. Murray wrs a British subject, and
had formerly served in the army of Rome under the Re-
public. He exchanged that position, however, for the office
of head police agent under the Republic at Ancona,
and while he filled that situation several murders took
place of persons who had been favourable to the cause
of the Pope. It was thought at the time that Mr.
Murray had connived at these murders, and he was
arrested, but afterwards liberated. At the fall,
however, of the Republic he was again arrested,
and remained in prison two years and four
months, at the expiration of which time he was brought
to trial for the previous offence, and sentenced to death.
This came to the knowledge of Mr. More, the British
agent at Ancona, and he, together with Mrd Free-
born, the consul at Rome, sent home to the
Government a history of the whole case. Instructions
were immediately returned to them directing them to
make an effort to obtain his liberation in the event of
their believing that he was innocent of the crime imputed
to him, or, en the other hand, to plead for a mitigation
of his sentence. The unfortunate gentleman had since
been removed from Rome to Ancona, and efforts were
now being made to prevent his sentence being carried
into effmt.—(Rear.)
Lord DUDLEY STUART asked if it was true
,that
Mr. Murray was accused of a political offence only?
Lord STANLEY' said the accusation was that Mr.
c.e
Murray had connived at murder, which
grezdarte.rlltuhamn
Ea paosklietidcailf (
Mr.'ff ne
Murray e—(Dear.)
wasa r
')wtrai:d something
before
secret tribunal?
Lord STANLEY said he was tried before
a special
tribunal.
Mr. HUME wished to know if Mr. Murrayin gaol so long without an
_ remained
y information of the fact be-
ing sent home until recently ?
Lord STANLEY said it undoubtedly was so.
Lord D. STUART
gave notice that he should call
attention to the subject again to-morrow.—(Hear, hear.)
Noble Lord said that- to-morrow he should ask the
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether
any actual communication had taken place between the
Government and the Governor of Ancona with regard
to the case of Mr. Murray.
Lord STANLEY consideredfor that the present it
would be better to drop the subject.
MAYNOO
In reply to a question from MrT
.EL P. HOWARD,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he had voted for the adjournment of the House on
Tuesday, without any reference to the Maynooth tore-
tion, but simply because there were live motions upon
the paper affecting the revenue of the country which he
did not wish to be brought on.—(A laugh.) He did not
vote for the adjournment of h
the House with the s 1 g telt
reference to the Maynooth question, and his views on
that question were identical with those he had expressed
the other day.—(Hear, hear.)
THE LOBOS ISLANDS.
In answer to a question put by Mr. BAGGE,
Lord STANLEY stated that applications had been
frequently made, during the l s year, to the British
Government by merchants and other persons interested
guano trade, to know—first, whether the Lobos
Islands, from which guano was to be obt,ieed, were
held to belong to Peru? secondly, whether British
ships
would be allowed to land there? and thirdly, whether
the British Government intended to send a eh'
of war
there for the
b protection of the trade? And the simple
reply made
that whethery the late and the present Government had
been, the islands were held to bel n t Peru or not, it was certain they did not belong to ng-
land; the British Government h d
no claim upon them,
and it was deemed d n a
anti visable to send any ship of war
these. IC was staid, 911 Lisa
QM )111110, 01*1 these