The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-10 00:00:00

POLAND.

Sir J. FERGUSSON intimated that when the ad-
j ourned debate came on he intended to ask the hon. member
for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) a question.

INDIAN BUDGET.

Sir C. WOOD intimated, in reply to an hon. member,
that he had not yet determined the exact day when he
should call attention to the finances of India.
FORTIFICATIONS (PROVISION FOR EX-
PENSES) BILL.

Lord PALMERSTON moved the second reading of this
bill.

Sir F. SMITH moved, as an amendment, " That no
further expenditure be incurred for the present upon that
part of the project for fortifications which is based on the
assumption that an enemy might land in force and attempt
to besiege Portsmouth and Plymouth, except on such works
as are in a very advanced state of progress." The hon.
baronet commenced by stating that since the question was
before them last year circumstances had not altered in
any essential degree. It was quite evident that if all
these works were completed, upon the scale recom-
mended by the commission, there would be no army left
to take the field against the invaders. But Row, in case
of any invasion from France—which was very unlikely if

England maintained her supremacy at sea—was it not
much more probable that the invading force would march
by the directest route for the capital than turn aside to
destroy a couple of dockyards ? Of the two operations, the
latter would be by far the more difficult. A bombardment
might destroy a certain number of ships and storehouses,
and a certain amount of combustible matter, but it would
not destroy the docks, the wharves, the iron, or the timber;
therefore, for a small compensation, the enemy would incur
an immense risk. He admitted that a dockyard like Pem-
broke would be exposed to a certain amount of danger in
case of war with France, provided the enemy could land
with sufficient force upon our shores, but the experience of
the Crimean war had shown that five days were requisite
for the landing of so small a force as 20,000 infantry, with
artillery and 1,000 horse ; and how then could the French
effect a landing for 100,000 men ? At any rate they would
never attempt to land at Portsmouth ; they might land
much more easily on the coast of Kent, and then they could
take possession of Chatham, Sheerness, and Deptford. At
'Woolwich an enormous amount of stores were collected, and
yet it was not proposed to erect as much as a single redoubt
there. They had been told there was a chance of a bombard-
ment of Portsmouth by vessels entering by Spithead. Now,
he was not prepared to admit that Charleston was a case in
po• int and he hoped the noble lord the Secretary to the Ad-
miralty would state his opinion on the matter. He thought
that, both with regard to the guns employed at Fort Sumter
and the setting of the tide at both harbours, there was no
analogy between them. It was therefore idle to talk of plac-
ing obstructions at Spithead, for they would have a most se-
rious effect upon our own fleet, which would be thus shut
out. Under these circumstances they would have to depend
upon the forts alone, and if these could be made to fulfil the
noble lord's expectations no one would be more rejoiced than
himself. If he could see the:thing in the same light as the noble
lord he would be the last man to oppose the expenditure of
the money; but believing that there never would be any
occasion to use the proposed works, he felt it his duty to
oppose such works as were not in a very advanced state.
Now it appeared that up to the 31st of last March, not a
halfpenny had been laid out on the north-eastern works at
Plymouth, which were estimated to cost £135,000. Surely
it was not too late to step these. In his opinion they should
pause and consider whether they might not adopt a more
economical system, and substitute field works for the per-
manent ones originally recommended. The eastern division
of the works at Chatham had not been advanced during the
year. Would the noble marquis tell him whether any land
had been purchased at Chatham ?
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said he believed that
land had been purchased.
Sir F. SMITH said there was nothing in the papers to
show that the land had been purchased. He thought it was
quite unnecessary to go on with the minor works if it was
intended to complete the works on Portsdown range, for if
an enemy could carry the gigantic works on Portsdown-
hill, it would be an easy matter to destroy the small lines.
The idea of the Duke of Wellington was, not that an enemy
I could come round by Portsdown-hill and attack the dock-
yards of Portsmouth, but that it might be possible for France
to send a fleet into the Solent from the Gosport side, which
by shells and mortars would do serious damage to the dock-
yard. What he wanted, and what the house wanted, was
not to thwart the plans of the noble lord, but to cut down
the expenses to a more economical standard. How could
they imagine than an enemy would laud upon the south-
eastern coast I With the present facilities for the transport
of troops, the whole force of the country could be concen.
trated on the spot within 24 hours. And if they could not
imagine that an enemy would attempt a landing, was it
not a waste of money to construct works upon so extensive
a scale? The Government had departed in many points
from the recommendations of the commission, and why
not give up other works which were only jest begun, and
the value of which was open to very great doubt ?
Nothing had been done et Woolwich, although the com-
mission strongly recommended a redoubt. The commission
had also recommended works at Chatham, but nothing had
been done there. For his own part, although representing
Chatham, he would never think of recommending anything
in the shape of fortifications for that town, for he believed
the idea of invasion was a mere bugbear. (Hear, hear.) He
was sure the noble lord had no personal fears, but that his
fore were for the nation ; but there Wes stuff in the people

of Britain to repel any hostile attack, and the army that
would set foot upon the English shore would find a grave
there, for not a man of them would ever return to his own
country. Was the volunteer force a myth and a sham
From what he saw of that force, he would not be afraid to
see the English shores defended by the volunteers, assisted
by cavalry and artillery, against any force which could be
brought to bear upon them. The landing of an army upon
a foreign shore when opposed was no plaything, as every
one who had witnessed such an operation could testify.
Having looked at this question with great calmness and a
sense of responsibility as a soldier, he felt it his duty to put
upon the paper an amendment which he submitted to the
consideration of the house. As he said before, he did not
want to stop works which were in a forward state; his ob.
ject was to invite the house to consider some more econo-
mical system of defending our shores. The hon. and gallant
gentleman concluded by proposing the amendment which
stood in his name._

Sir D. L. EVANS said he could not agree with the hon.
and gallant colonel who spoke last upon the question of
leaving the defence of our arsenals to the ships of war in the
service. The hon. gentleman seemed to think we were alto-

gether free from incidental dangers, and that we might at
all times depend upon a strong Channel fleet ; but suppose
that fleet, from necessity, should be distributed over the

world to protect our possessions abroad, in what position
shoula we find ourselves ?

The Marquis of HARTINGTON thought it would
have been more convenient if they had postponed the gene-
ral discussion until the bill bad gone into committee, but
that not being the case, he would state that the whole of the
money required had been, or very shortly would be paid.
Out of the £40,000 that had been voted last year only
£20,000 had been spent; but, at the same time, nothing had
happened since to alter the opinions of the Government upon
the genera► question of fortifications. It had been generally

conceded that it would be inexpedient to excleavour to for-
tify the coast all round the country ; but the generalfeeling
as to strengthening the salient points remained,unaltered.
Mr. COBDEN said that, if the question before the house
had been one involving only technical considerations, he
should have been the last to interfere. Upon an inquiry as
to what forts should be erected upon the sea coast com-
manding a particular roadstead or entrance to a harbour, he
should submit Entirely to the opinion of scientific men ; but
that was entirely a new question. The terms of the Royal
Commission upon that subject, giving directions to the com-
missioners as to their duties, expressed that they should es-
.

pecially inquire into all such works of defence as were in-
tended for the protection of the Royal arsenals and dockyards
in case of any hostile attack by foreign enemies by sea or by
land. In a subsequent memorandum it was stated that, in
taking into consideration the condition of Woolwich, they

were bound also to consider the general question of the de-
fences of the metropolis, and Sir Harry Jones had remarked
that the new arsenal, involving as it did a considerable out-
lay for fortifications, should be so situated as to form a

rallying point for the defence of the country in the event

of London falling into the hands of the enemy. That
showed that what was contemplated, was not the protec-
tion of roadsteads and harbcurs, but that the scheme was
based upon the assumption that an enemy had landed in
the country and taken possession of the interior. He wished
to bring that fact under the notice of the house for another
reason, for he should show that the idea was entirely attri-

butable to one person. The commissioners had their in-
structions to report upon a scheme of inland fortifications,

and therefore he did not hold them responsible for its erigin.
He was of opinion that the scheme was entirely attributable
to one person, who, he dared say, was in the mind of every •
body present, and if that one person were absent from the
house, from any cause whatever, he ventured to say that
the scheme wonld not go on. (Hear.) The other day the
scheme was put off because that one person was absent, and
his hon. friend the member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright),

who was sitting by him at the time when notice was given
that the noble lord at the head of the Government could
not attend, rather bluntly remarked to his next neighbour
"that nothing bad could be done unless the Prime Minis-
ter was present." (Laughter.) He was not going to make
any assertion without proof, and when the noble lord (Lord
(Palmerston) thought fit to reply, if he substituted a few
facts and arguments for jests and pleasantries, he (Mr.
Cobden) would be very much obliged to him. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) When he came into the house in 1841 the
noble lord was pursuing the same course that be was now
pursuing with reference to fortifications and defences
against France. It was the peculiar idiosyncrasy of the
noble lord, and it was this, that steam navigation had had
the effect of diminishing the power of England, as in oppo-
sition to the power of France. In June, 1845, he launched
the idea, and in July of the same season declared that
steam had "bridged" the channel. Sir Robt. Peel scoffed
at the idea, and maintained that the demonstration which
England could even then make with her steam navy was
such as would surprise the world. That was Sir Robert
Peel's reply when the noble lord talked of steam bridges,
and what authorities had he ever adduced in the house to
justify the opinion upon which they were acting and
spending millions upon millions of money ? Admiral Ber-
keley in 1848 was opposed to him ; Sir Thomas Hastings,
who at the time was at the head of the gunnery depart-
ment, was opposed to him; Sir C. Napier ridiculed the idea
of invasion, and although the hon. and gallant member for
Westminster made a speech that evening which he (Mr.
Cobden) could not understand, he yet remembered that the
gallant gentleman spoke differently in 1852. But not only
had those authorities separated themselves from the noble
lord, but in 1852, on the subject of the ballot, Earl Russell,
in a very blunt manner, separated from him, declaring that
he could not agree in the fanatical idea of sudden invasion
of the country, which had its origin in panic and not in
reason.

Au HON. MEMBER—And Gibson. (Hear, and laughter
Mr. COBDEN—Yes, Mr. Gibson was also opposed to
the noble lerd—(laughter)—but he (Mr. Cobden) was not
going to quote him as an authority. But when the noble
lord brought forward the subject in 1860, and culminated
in his folly, whom did he quote as an authority ? Sir R.
Peel, who had ridiculed his idea, but whom, nevertheless,
he did not hesitate to misquote in support of his project.
He trusted that the noble lord would now take the oppor-
tunity of correcting the error, and of recalling what could
not but be considered a calumny on an illustrious name.
The noble lord said that steam had given a great advan •
tage to the enemy. But how ? When sailing vessels were
the test of comparison it was supposed that England had
five tons of mercantile shipping to one of France ; but if
they compared their steam mercantile marine with that of
France, it would be found that they had 20 horse power
to one of France. Was it possible, then, that that
could render the country more vulnerable which had
given it a fourfold increase of its strength ? Its superiority
in naval matters depended, as might be seen by a glance
at what was doing in the way of shipbuilding on all their
great rivers in its private dockyards; and it was absurd
to suppose that any Government was so foolish as not to
estimate them at their true value in considering the re-
sources of the nation. (Hear.) Having referred to the fact
that Sir Howard Deuglas, when he gave his approval to
the scheme of fortifications, was 85 years of age, and was
so infirm that he could not be appointed on the commis-
sion, circumstances which detracted from the weight of his
opinion, the hon. member proceeded to say that if, acting
under such guidance, the house surrendered its opinion to
the noble lord, who had no more experience of military
matters than he (Mr. Cobden) had, having never risen to a
higher grade than a captain of militia—(laughter)—it
would prove that it had become effete and worn out. (Hear.)
The noble marquis who had just spoken for the Govern-
ment had voted twice against the project, and he was sorry
to see one so young able to do it so coolly—(laughter)—to
stoutly deny now that which he had so recently twice con-
demned. !He only wished the house could adjourn for one
day to the Southdowns—(hear, hear, and laughter)—and
hold a session under Nelson's monument, and he was quite
sure they would do one of Itwo things—either vote that
those fortresses should be established, or pass a resolution
that Englishmen should never more sing " Rule, Bri-
tannia," or "Ye mariners of England." (Laughter.)
These forts would be only useful after an enemy who had
made himself master of the sea had landed on our coast, for
they had a very high authority that the Southdown forts
could not prevent an enemy from landing. Of what use,
then, he :asked, were those forts, except for our soldiers
to take refuge in whilst the enemy marched to Brighton
or some other place far more pleasant than those forts ?
The hon. and gallant member for Chatham had said it
would take a larger army than this country could
muster to man then* and where then, he asked, was
the necessity for their building solid structures for
time to gnaw away. (Hear, hear.) Hampshire and
Sussex had each 30,000 agricultural labourers, well used
to the spade, and he ventured to assert that in less
than twenty-four hours they could get upwards of 50,000
of them on the Southdown Hills aid throw up mountains
of earthworks. (Hear, hear.) Ho doubted if they could find
in Portsmouth a military or naval man under 50 years of
age—and he made that stipulation—(hear, and laughter)—
who was not only opposed to those forts, but who was dis-
gusted with them, and who felt humiliated at their construc-
tion as a constant reproach and stigma on the manhood of
the ago, and a symbol of our disgrace. (Hear, and laughter.)
And the people of Portsmouth, when they went by railway
to Havant, rode with their backs to the engine, or covered
their faces with their hands, so greatly were they ashamed
of the forts. (Laughter.) Their construction was urged by
some op account of the extended range of our guns, and their
giving us an advantage over the landing of an enemy; but
had not the range of our rifles increased more than our guns?
And he was inclined to believe that 10,000 riflemen, if they
had sufficient time to dig their rifle pits, would be a far better
check to the landing of an enemy than those forts. They
were a disgrace and a dishonour to the ago and to English-
men, and such things were never heard of in former times.
He read an extract from Mr. Pitt's speech in 1804, when
there was really a fear of an invasion, and he proposed to
meet it in four ways; first, by our large ships in deep water;
next, in shallow water, by our flotilla of gunboats ; third, to
prevent the landing of the enemy ; and the fourth, the least
convenient, was to meet him in the field when he had gained
ai landing on English ground. (Hear, hear.) Were 48 then,
i e asked, so degenerated that we required fortifications to
hide our soldiers in. (Hear, hear.) He should vote with the
hon. and gallant member to stop those works which had not
arrived at any great perfection ; but he (Mr. Cobden) consi-
dered that the nearer they were to completion the more de-
'Arable it was they should-be stepped, for the reason that