The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-19 00:00:00

CRIMINAL LUNATICS.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY, after presenting a
petition from the county of Leicester on this subject,
rose to move that a humble address be presented to her
Majesty praying that her Majesty will be graciously
pleased to take into her consideration the expediency of
the establishment of a state asylum for the care and
custody of those who are denominated " criminal luna-
tics." The Noble Earl proceeded to say that the sub-
ject he was about to introduce could not be novel to
their Lordships. Thu care and custody of criminal
lunatics had been a matter of great interest, and con-
siderable care and attention had been bestowed by ma-
gistrates in various parts of the country to the improve-
ment of their asylums. Their attention had been
drawn to the fact that the presence of criminal lunatics
was a very great bar to the improvement of asylums.
The grievance had become intolerable; and he had been
requested to bring the subject before their Lordships.
He must, in the first place, exonerate the magis-
trates, because they had protested repeatedly against
this practice. He must also exonerate the Com-
missioners of Lunacy, because they had reported
at great length to the Lord Chancellor on the
subject, and proposed a remedy for the evil. More-
over, they had corresponded with the Secretary of
State, pointing out the great evils that had arisen
from the present system. The term " criminal luna-
tics" perhaps seemed to involve something of a con-
tradiction; but it was the ordinary and received term,
and it embraced every class and description of persons
and crime from the miserable idiot who had perpetrated
some enormous act of violence up to the case of the per-
sons who approached insanity, who simulated insanity,
and were perhaps in possession of their senses at the
time they committed the offence with which they had
been charged. The criminal lunatics might be divided
into four classes: the first consisted of those who bad
actually become lunatic, at the time fixed for their trial.
The second class was composed of those who, being sane
at the time of their trial, were, by a special verdict,
found to be insane at the time of committing the offence.
The third cities were persons who had become lunatic
after sentence had been passed upon them. Now, there
was a fourth class of persons who were confined under
summary conviction—vagrants, and persons convicted
for want of sureties, and who had become insane. The
laws whereby these parties a ere dealt with and their
detention fixed, were contained in three statutes, viz.,
the 39th and 40th Geo, 111., the Ist and 2d of Vie ,
and the 3d and 4th of Vie. The Noble Earl ex-
plained the nature of those statutes, and proceeded
to sty that there was another class of lunatics,
which consisted of persons who might be in danger
of committing some offence. Formerly any magis-
Vat- might commit them to a gaol or a place of custody;
but by a late Act it required that two justices mouldcommit such person, and that he should be committed,
not to a gaol, but sent to a lunatic asylum or a place of
safe custody. None of these parties, except those com-
mitted by the magistrates, could be liberated without
the authority of the Secretary of State. Now, he
would state the number of criminal lunatics. The total
number of criminal lunatics in England and Wales was
439,360 males, and 79 females. But their Lordships
must observe, that when they came to look at the num-
bers, and exemined the offences with which the lunatics
were charged, they would find that the offences were
against life, and under that head they included, not
only simple assaults, but everything that was directed at
life—shooting, cutting, and maiming—their Lordships
would find that, for those offences, the number was 138;
for offences against property and against the person, some
of the latter being of the grossest description, the num-
ber was 188, 163 males and 25 females. The number of
persons convicted of misdemenour was 48; and of those
committe-d for want of sureties, and who had otherwise
become insane, 43. Their Lordships must not suppose
that although those persons were committed for
want of sureties, they were not dangerous persons,
as he should show that many of them were most
dangerous. Now, these criminal lunatics were distri-
buted in various as} lutes, and were maintained by the
Government. In Bethlem Hospital there were main-
tained at the Government expense 103 criminal lunatics.
At an asylum near Salisbury there were 57. The ge-
neral treatment of these patients be would next refer
to. The House might judge, in some measure, the evil
effect produce d by the presence of these patients among
the other lunatics. Let their Lordships consider the
former life and habits of these parties, who were desig-
nated criminal lunatics. They had pursued a lung course
of evil and profligacy, of theft and murder; and the
House must recollect that the lunacy under which they
laboured was often the effect of their own excesses; and
their Lordships would imagine such patients being in-
troduced among the quiet, orderly, timid, and sensitive
lunatics in an asylum, because many of the lunatics were
well-conducted patients—very timid and sensitive, and
the predominant feeling in all their minds was, that the
place they were confined in was a prison, and that they
were sent there for punishment. Upon being associated
with notorious persons, who had committed crimes of
that description, such a feeling was strengthened; their
minds were worked upon; and the impression whioh
was thus produced upon them alone tended to
retard their recovery. But, that their Lordships might
form some estimate of the characters of these persons
who were confined in such places, he would state some
of the offences which they had committed. In the asee
lum at Manchester there was a violent man who had

committed a murder. The next case was fur an assault
—an attempt to shoot a clergyman; the next was a case
of stabbing; and another party was described as
treache-
rous, malignant, and revengeful; another hadstabbed
would not,
his brother, and so on. Their Lordahi
then, wonder at the strong language of
of se cri-
perintendents against the further detentionts
in
toldinary
thP3omvwedical su-
mind. lunatics along with other patien . .
asylum, and a
asylums. He had an extract of the opinions of the
medical superintendents of every pleubmleic,
and they were
great many of those of private
the opinions of eminent
associate persons branded
and exupsyerienced men. Now,
they said it was unjust that the conduct of
°lunatics;
violent; that their
with offences with other
life, were injurious
criminal lunatics
was
freci
o u o
eruenetlryseve7
habits, from their
imother patients; that it was neces-
sary, pernicious to Lb')
of their presence, to exercise
sary, invVseeng
and firmness; and that the whole
greater
and order of the asylum was interfered with
disclipine
They said the effect was to expose the lunatics them-
„lves to taunts, and that they were irritated when they
other persons liberated and they themselves de-
tained;
chat they endeavoured to escape, and induce
others ;
others to assist them; and that these patients monopo-
lised an undue share of care. But they added this ia-
planatory sentence, which completely destroyed the
other parts of the evidence—" We have always taken
care to conceal from the other patients the fact that the
persons they were confined with were criminal lunatics."
Then, in the report of that admirable institution, the flan-
well asylum, it was stated that the prisoner in the gaol
knew he could not escape, but the criminal lunatic
thought he might escape from the asylum; and he,
therefore, simulated insanity in order to get into the
asylum. There was this peculiarity about insane per-
sons, that they were wholly unable to combine, but they
would follow others. Now the remedy that he
proposed for this state of things was that there
should be a sate asylum for the separatei
_
care and custody of those persons called
criminal lunatics. This remedy, ho thought, was
uni-
versally recommended by the medical superintendents.
There There were many questions which it would be necessa y
to discuss before such a measure could be brought beton
their Lordships. In the first place, they _would have to
consider whether it should be inaintgined by the 'tate

1852.

or by local rates, and whether some di,cretionary power
should not be give n to the Secretary of S:sste as to the ,
liberation of the prisoners. The law said, that no party
confined as a criminal lunatic could be liberated mikes
two medical men woeld certify that such party was of
sound mind. Now, there were many persons whom they
could certify might be liberated with pertt ct set:eye but
whom they (teeth not eertdy to be of sound wird. ii•ey
would have there ore to consider whet her each person*
should he lioe.rwed. And, moreover, they would have
to consider, sooner or later, how far the plea of insanity
was to be admitted. 'Detre could be no doubt there was
in the present day a great tendency, both with judges
and juries, to admit that plea. There were, he befiew d,
persona who openly avowed that they could do what
they pleased. They felt that whatever offence
they might commit, they had the plea of previoMa in-
sanity to save them from the consequences, and that all
they had to fear was confinement for life. The Noble
Lord concluded by moving the resolution, that a
humble address be presented to her Majesty, to cause
inquiries to be made as to the expediency of esta-
blishing a state asylum for the confinement of lunatic
priseuent.
Lord BERNERS said, reluctant as he was to trespass
on their Lordships' time, he felt it his duty, as one of
the chairmen of patter seatione, in the county of
Leicester, to state that the petition was agreed to uncut-
mously, by one of the fullest benches he had ever seen in
the county.
The Earl of DERBY said the Noble Earl who had
introduced this subject could have no necessity for
making any apology for directing their Lordships' attune
lion to a matter of considerable and deep importance,
because for a long period he had devoted his unremitting
attention to matters, some of them of the most repul-
sive character, with a view of ameliorating the condition '
of his fellow-creatures. Nor did he suppose that any
of their Lordships would be disposed for a moment
to undervalue the immense improvements which had
of late years been introduced in the system of
treating lunatics. He believed there had been no greater
improvement within the last few years in any science
than in that of alleviating the condition of insane per-
sons. He believed that the sufferings of such persons
had been greatly diminished, and that there had been
great gain in the proportion recovered, and therefore ho
was quite sure that neither on his part nor on that of
their Lordships, could there be any des re to interfere in
the slightest degree with the humane system of treating
lunatics. But he confessed he was at a loss to see the
connexion which his Noble Friend appeared to find be-
tween the existence of that treatment, which was gene-
rally followed in lunatic asylums in this country, with
the peculiar question that he had brought under the con-
eideration of the House. His Noble Friend adverted to
that which was undoubtedly an anomaly; an expression
which he might almost say was a contradiction in terms.
To say that a man was a criminal, was to say that he
was responsible for his actions; and to say that he was
a lunatic, was to say that he was irresponsible; and,
therefore, he saw some difficulty iu drawing a
line which his Noble Friend seemed inclined to draw
between criminal lunatics and other lunatics. Ho
thought it would be necessary to apply the same prin-
ciple that ho applied to criminal lunatics to all those
who were violent and dangerous, for the only difference
was, that one of them had committed that which, if ho bad
been in a sane state of mind, would have made him liable
to punishment, and another was in the same condition
of mind, but had not had the opportunity of doing that
which would make him liable to punishment. He was
at a loss to understand on what principle the law had
been regulated as to the two classes—these who were
dealt with by the 39th and 40th George 111., namely,
persons who had been found not guilty of the offence.
on which they were charged on the ground of insanity,
and those who, under similar circumstances, bad Been
similarly dealt, with under the Aet of the 3d and 4:h of
the Queen, and persons who before trial had been found
in fact to be lunatic, and thereupon, without being tried
and without the necessity at the verdict of a jury, had
been, by the authority of two magistrates, and with tee
sanction ef two medical men, traneterred to a lunatic
asylum. He was unable to account for the distinction with
which theses two classes of persons were treate I. There
were between 450 and 470 of all descriptions of cri-
minal lunatics, and et thee about 100 were maintained
in the two wings of Bethlehem Hospital which were
built specially tor the confinement of criminal lunatics,
at the expense of the country, and these lunatic, confined
there were maintained at the expense of thecountry,
and there wore a number maintained also at the expense
of the Government at an asylum at Fisherham (as we
b yth
respectivee
e u
understood), near Salisbury. There were others that
country,were
w distributedhe
we
were
3n
asylumsmoaithnetarined
ties in which the asylum was, or by the parishes to
which they belonged. There could be no ground for
this distinction. He was clearly of opinion that the
charge of criminal lunatics ought not to fall on the
county or the parish, but ought to fell on the country
generally. Therefore, ho did not pretend to say that he
thought the existing law was in a satisfactory condition,
or that it did not stand in need of some amendment. He
thought the maintenance of these criminals was an ex-
pense that might justly and rightly fall on the public
funds. But when they came to that point they ought
also to consider how difficult it was to stop there,
and how they could draw the lino between criminal
lunatics and violent and dangerous lunatics.
His Noble Friend said that the presence of
these criminal lunatics among those who were merely la-
bouring under harmless delusions was injurious to both
parties. He agreed with him—but where was the county
lunatic asylum in which they were so mixed together?
If they were, it was against all the rules governing
lunatic asylums. The Noble Lord moved for an ad-
dress, because if he brought a Bill in teat House it would
be an infringement of the privileges of the House of
Commons, inasmuch as it would involve the application
of a sum of money fur the maintenance of these esta-
blishments. Surely, if that were the case, an address
to the Crown recommending such establishments was
equally open to objection.
The Earl of SH FESBURY—No; for an inquiry
to consider the expediency.
The Earl of DERBY proceeded. Going no further on
that subject, he said that until they had fully consi-
dered all the consequences, all the difficulty of drawing
the distinction between the two classes, while he quite
agreed with the Noble Earl that it might be expedient
and desirable to itiquire into the law relating to the
oustony of lunatics, he thought it would be exceedingly
undesirable to pledge their Lordships with regard to
one portion, and not the most material portion of an
alteration in the law. The expense of building the two
wings at Bethlehem must have been considerable; the
cost of the maintenance of the lunatics there was 34/
103. a head per annum; at Fisherham it was 301.; aid
its other institutions, he believed it was about 261. In
addition to the increased expenditure of maintenance,
which would, in all probability, be the consequence of a
Government establishment, the cost of such a building
as his Noble Friend contemplated would probably be
more than 50,0001, and might be near 100,0001.; and he
did not see why, in well regulated county asylums, they
might not effect the object by classifying criminal luna-
tics, as well as they could effect it in any states asylum.
The subj. ct had been considered by a former Govern-
ment, and would be considered by the present, and he
hoped that his Noble Friend would be satisfied with the
assurance, on the part of the Government, that this sub-
ject should not be lost sight of, and that he would not
think it necessary to call on their Lordships to pledge
the House on the subject.
Lord ORA'S WOR EH said he hoped, after the assu-
rance of the Noble Earl who h .d just sat down, that his
Noble Friend would not object to withdraw the motion.
His Noble Friend stated some doubts whether the whole
law on the subject of the plea of insanity was not alto-
gether on an unsatisfactory footing. His Noble Friend
said it was the habit, both of judges and juries, to avoid
responsibility by allowing this plea. Perhaps, as having
had the honour, for a long number of years, of filling
the station of ono of the judges administering criminal
justice, he (Lord Cranworth) might be supposed to speak
with some prejudice; but Ise must eenscientiously say
that he thought his Noble Friend was quite wrong
re-
' supposing that there was the least bias of
tthhoe
olotinntdrsrrey,
' ferred to in the minds of the judges. On
bound to
it was the feeling of the judges that they
wetreendency of
stand as a sort of obstacle to the frequentddgar,
hear.)
juries to shirk their responsibilities. (LI
tHheathatdhaftouwnads this in
now raised was
on the bench. As the quefsuoll; brethren
sureren
consideration, it
about to be taken
idle
ototo
i nu
nhiivseor
hseerd an opinion as
practice,ie„i.i,ong oafndh hise
might be worse thano_
the
alteration of the law ought
to what the character f
studied the subject, he did not hessi-
to be; but,
decided opinion that the question of
ot to bo trusted to the decision of the
hear.)
)nacy of a person being triedtoibe
The evils arising from leaving
ta te
lunacyt o
oughtex p express as
nay
juries.—(Bear. h
the question of t
question of guilty or not
gritty were very great; and, as theivr,oLui)ds-dschoimpsprkonmeiws'e,
mixed up with the simple
it frequently happened that a jury
their difficulty by acquitting a prisoner on the ground of
itnnswa.nhiitcyh.e asA ha t(hLisorbdaPePreannewdorilith)numbeless instances
believed, there was
no ground whatever for the conclusion as to the in-
sanity.—(llear, hear.)
_His proposal to remedy this evil
was this: Cases in the criminal courts should be tried
distinctly in reference to the fact, guilty or not guilty,
of the offer' • -3 an
umanlnge
•
grills to
being permitted to the
jury, on finding a
to observe upen their be-
lief of the insanity; this question would afterwards pro-
perly come to be inquired into before another tribunal
which should be free from the prejudices which so doubt
did operate upon ordinary juries. What this tribunal
should be—whether composed of the Secretary of State,
and some other high functionary, or of medical
men—he would not now say, but that tribunal, he was
convinced, ought not to be an ordinary jury.—(Hear,
hear.) At present, because juries were permitted to de-
cide on the lunacy of a criminal. there were continual
violations of oaths. And this ought to be stopped; for
it defeated the ends of justice.—(Haar, hear.) What had
been stated by his Noble Friend convinced him that
nothing could be more mischievous than to mix criminal
lunatics with other lunatics. There was not, perhaps a
distinction in genus between criminal lunatics and other
lunatics, except in this: that, lunacy being pre-eminently
a malady of the mind and of the imagination, the ming-
ling of a lunatic who had committed no crime with per-
son,,, guilty of crones had a tendency to retied recovery.
The Noble Lord opposite had said triat there was a con-
fusion in terms in speekitig of " criminal lunatics." No
doubt there was; hut he (Lord Cran worth) should like
to knew, in those classes, how many were criminals and
how many were lunatics.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The error of expression was in using the word "lunatic,"
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY replied, expressing
his satisfaction with the speeches of Lords Derby and
Cranworth, and consenting to withdraw the motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn, and their
/ Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF CWIMONS, March 18.
The brzAratts took the Clutix if; kogr ,

NEW MEMBER.
Mr. COG AN timk the oaths and his seat for Kildare, in
tl.w room of Lord Naas.
OXFORD, WORCESTER, AND WOLVERIIANIP-
TON RAILWAY.
Mr. DU PRE moved the >ccotid reading of this Bill,
and said the i..ehemo which it embraced was highly
d by Ishdhoicier on the line. It bad, is
tact, met with the univi-rsal assent of all elaises•
The Bitt w read a second time and ordered to be
committed.

PETI PIONS.
Colonel SIB:110RP prey:-rated a petition from the
postmasters of Lotcoln, praying for the immediate re-
peal of ; be peat-horse duty.
Mr. S. CR A IA FOR!) presented petitions from several
Irish counties in favour of his Tenant Right Bill.
Several petitions were presented in favour of an au
justnarnt of the burdens that press unduly upon tbe
agrMr,iculturel i!.t,rest.
BRIGHT itresentcd a petition from Manchester
in favour of Parliamentary reform, and especially fro)"
ing
Mfor vote by 13111;:t.
r. DIVETI' presented a similar petition from
Exeter.
Sir G. PECHELL presented a petition from Brighter'
praying for the rep al of the taxes on knowledge•
golm‘edrar.
paglaißn
,Ut Nl :.he.,EMSap rueosoeinhtegdraan . petition
boDthir. in ‘f*Va.v:of the rli
WILLIAMS.,Sry presented
.all petition from L 5133.
macy .
Sir W I LLI ANI MOLES Vi RTH presented a Petiti°ll
from the Newfoundland National As!embly,Prgingr thoaf
[louse to pas tl
a law to invest them with the fee-
lucsl self-government. t:I ,n 1
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from Pert-11-an
resident in Manchester having en income of les4o
al
1501. a year, stating that as they had felt the 'idea
t-ff,cts of cheap bread which free trade haben' d
gl
them, they hoped the House would not scrulbe
in extending the income-tax to th‘rm der-
Hon. Gentleman also presented a petition from StrPd, .
land, praying for the repeal of the taxes on knowk dogs
Mr. COWAN presented several petitions from 15
ti-
places in Scotland against the income-tax.
ftfoiroorntsh
the
irgenpeedalboyf thethe LmoarydnPo
or Provost
grant.st ofG lesgew 1
I)6l°lYeiv
e itiee9
Mr. HUME presented a large number of re(' he
m parishes in Suffolk, praying for the rePc-- °f t
malt-tax.

On the motion of MARBLE ILl„lABRfaCtioitp, a ret
of
the marble arch, sass
arn
ordered of themoo
expensesu attendant upon the r,..„,b50
Palace. and the alterations of 13016."-'0

miLNNOETsICES OF MOTIONS• fortnight
Mr.
M. gave notice that ibis day cjr
he should bring forward a resolution respecting tlleseb•
reepondence with iho Austrian Government on
toe
ject of toreign rt fueeee,
Mr. D'EYNCOURT gave notice that
fortnight he should move for leave to bring lu
shorten the duration of Parliament,. as estlf
Sir H. W. BARRON gave notice that WI ',lle dis'
day he would call the attention of the House t° '
tress d condition of theof
people Ireland. , rtniglit
Mr. HEYWOOD gave notice that this day '°,-, .901
he should move a resolution to the effect that the ,-/orf). the
Palace be retained and devoted to the purposes
instruction and amusement of the people.
RETURNS. ref sea:
On the motion of Mr. AN DERSON, 3 11
0"
sgreed to of the registered number of steam-17°6
to of allt_li!t
stliDieurlietYo
the Ist of January, 1852.
On the motion of Mr. ANSTEY, a return Was s egreeci
permanently endowed out of the public reventre-• el-
a andit reeod to otte
rellgasEauaineaDdß,ur
ioratelii:N,soisos), educational,ha d b e
aa or cc flu at r
di toll e
• On the motion
OUniTniaTAced
Colonel It Asti toUPON
officer
idAhßGovernment
in nbI,BRITISH
ll
lss tlePaeiPei :11 f:' istiocar et
pFiti '
zeo:.:1;;;Low:
oi
or
ii;
moetthiteionti-_,dltahl ABROAD. , hich
quantityo of M . Go.
fT,I-cloOttiAls fuSON, a re.htuciravoi
t
by the Austrian authorities. The letter w°,s bee to
alsie'deted4
Florence on the 111 h of this month. 110 w16;00 0i
know whether the Government were in 00°56'
any in6)rmation respecting the transactioe? „ said he
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUr''' British
believed it was quite incorrect that 6 „fa bi
officer in full uniform had been cut down at Lfg-,,,-,a to
the Aus,rian authorities. Information had reac". brig
Government that a petty officer in the Marine9'we 09
on leave at Leghorn, hid been extremely raal"lsel the
the Tuscan police. The ceptaic of her Majesty e T,e-„ilett,
Firebrand immediately communicated with Mr. ''''-erter
the British Minister at Florence. Considerable nvd the
pondence had taken place between Mr. Scsrlett !ll,ltoese
Austrian Government, and the head of the 'ci boo
police, who was involved in the transaction! it°f•nrcao'
imprisoned for eight days. That was all the ill -
Lion that had reached the Government. ~ iOO2l/1,
Lord PAL el ERSTON wished to put S Cl'elt,l roe.-
some way connected with this affair. Some cous-ed ebr
time ego an unmanly outrage, of a very aggrgaTrevos firi,
ratter, was made upon a British subject•
e oeiteen'
attack by an armed officer at the head of acireTcjobed
on en unarmed British subject at Floreece, tleeftieted
to know whether the Tuse;an Government had leftists
any punishment upon the officer who bad 5° .""00- bad
ducted himself, or whether any other reparatt
been made to the British Crown? 011E3 ref
The CHANCELLOR of the ENCO - „ct'ce °,
minded the Noble L eel that he bad uot eiven -0104'
had insisted upon reparation from
his question, but he had to reply that tb Ga°nleGoverfr
went. The correspondence which had passed vvoi the
belie e,
prof,:ching to aEp e • ‘,' p and be
ee y termila,lo ,
ri
___alearq ,be
result would bo saisf.ctory to the haAlse• soon ter .
Lord J. RUSSELL a- ked whether reParalteirroveut?
injury had let en promised by the Tosco Ou'lgiz said b°
The CHANCELLOR of the ENCIIEQ r pIY if the
should be able to give a more satisfactory re Ply
Noble Lord would give notice of his erlesi°l3.
the Two
_ow.
t° re°
INCOMEINCOME-TAN'X. need
Mr. HUME wished to know if it was intended veer?
fit w the Income-tax Committee lequirY ~.,OfTTInEs old 13°
The CHANCELLOR of the e.:CCUE`'4'
,hould have no ehjection to such a preceediner•
IRISH VALUATIONS.
In rply to Mr. SCULLY. tateatbsll
Thee ATTORNEY. GENER AL for Ireland a ~, i, 131
t was the intention of Government to introry
Mr. HUME said the
on the subject of the tax va,luatioi s in Irelan •
t'
THE ESTIMATES. A thetas
House air'
had' ads "te- $.....,.cnett _..
and money for the navy in an extraordinary Di.;_no in r°
ference to the income-tax, which would he wanted to know wt.nt was intended to b 0 "eordy.
Id expiro su,id due
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQOEB st obtell,
notice would be given of any financial stateol, iouglw
should hereafter be made by the Government --('''.
.8
IRISH SAVINGS BANNS. . go,
Mr. REYNOLDS then rose to move that tbi6e..jogo!,
do, on Tuesday, the 23d day of March,reselveitsel',o of,
Committee, to consider of the losses sustained bY ,I.l'e,eoa
ferers in the late Cuffe-street Savings Bank, llab't, Abe
to move that an humble address be presented to b'h„, li,
Gracious Majesty, praying that her Majesty tolid to
pleased to teke into her Royal consideration% to es"
grant them a componsa•ion for their losses, Bea 4 the
sure her Majesty that this House will make go„,oece
same. Ina former session he had the honour or 'itee
&letting her Majesty'e Ministers on this very sit 'Dee
hut the defeat was not followed by a request frotod,;s
Mai sr), that he should form a Ministry.—(Hear. 6,";et
or., I
laugh.) He might as well confess at once that the 000. ..
of this motion ht
to recover the balance of 50,treet •
Geverntnent of Ida°
erll:h9e7ldedmeaP:lit:orts aosfanthaectCouiff
ceb'...rciiroi't
and 1850; and eve
were aware of the insolvency of the bank ion% -aters
pt from the dePuo"jads
through motives of public policy, mr iliftle ttd
b'tl‘3l)'uhateLeakhs' crisis a:7nci'elucita't:mellre,oat(tioli ugthitt. wals'heke
the Co:mmittee. whi°_ 6,01),,1‘f:
iwlßbi sa,
)4f
taotst. , s thaiaeSt e 4
m9n
meant t
before
b toehf
kingdom.
ad
opmaa
:is: egTane
and
!I.llaco..dar,uteho:;iocodytirph:
fit
Ici
to:::00".,
plain 0
said, if the
banks
hnterm
cellor of the Ex h
make out was a been disclosed to es -
tors it might hove produced
the had. m " public Pate dceall
fraudulent ne 1. he; the bank f;,.1 e Ch
end tb° eie°
bed bee" el
h I wyers and aymen had
legally • n equer for the time hewg depoil 1
liable for the payment of the or/
re the defalcationswere known.--(flear.' enitit'),°
that the depositorgiven - tof the Po°
s fought to be paid ou . fact fit
exchequer and an instalment of 30,0001. bad In clo°'
paid to so
thern.—(Hear, hear.) There could be ,ed then,
tthen of the justice of this case, and he conteuu3o,ooo';
he time had arrived when the other esr;io
ought to be made good by the State.--(Llenerli,
At this bank the deficiency in the amount
,piped "i
was 56,229/ 16s. 4d. The number which dire ceibere'
it as their erobec
vidend of 10s. in the pound was 1,927, and tilt,f;bll;
'which was occasioned by the insolvency of cobir li
thought tueosgoe
would bo understood when ho stated that "..veg .0
soufmthseofdempoosni(tlorsinwetrheedePosttl y welof
females,inetituiwonh,o' by
preparing for a rainy day. However, bY 'be 7' Old :41
the authorities on this side of the Chaeue:c 011,e „ 4
frauds committed on the other side, tile 7:Piled
of the bank was suppressed, and the poor Peleder",s3,
themselves victimized in 1848. It had boa olv 00
that the insolvency of the bank was known fr° by t
and that the fact had been sup ressed °lir,'
P bile P bete
Commissioners
on the grounds of Pu, ,ion t ia
as they feared if it got into circeles eid
bP" 0
would be a run upon all siwilurojo gict.g•l'
Ireland. He had always treated the 30,00
00 isr‘,o
the unfortunate depositors by the House 35 Poe
went, not as is final settlement of their clai; grtnoe
the Commissioners sacrificed their moneY ''n.te to 110
of public policy the House ought in justlacoula tie
given ample compensation. The Hotienrrbe pe ;,,i
act on the principle of charity. 're- sol'ifieel
were either entitled to the whole or theY fin'Aitiel'ber
if not entitled to the whole, the House w.,06 ~It- itiel33
in voting them a single ehilting The Ll•')".
. ot
'3,
concluded by moving the resolution. Eft erl
The CHANCELLOR, of the EX.CrIELe-tii b eYiett
this was one of th.,se distressing cases with oLiecrertoes
Member sympa'hised. No doubt a cousiderau:er elf'o,3f
Cl her M ,)t,ty' subjects beleneinte to the poocaffe ,e
ver
had B'Si-red very much by the failure of the PI% ie
Bank. He was surprised t,,,at when 1.110 11.6trsti°i 111 e
was so indignant with branches of the Adrut°tees ° ov
Ireland, he toad spared the mating, rs and tr,9l,„!rant, ells
bank, whose conduct was certainly as ,ii 7.,e0r.) 00
infamous as could well be imagined.—(ll",-'it 014 013
did not think any one could contend tb3°, sod Illweel
duty of the Government .to come foro:aru or, tioo
bail ,tO.-
amends for the wait tit 8 illSt" ctetee I.
of faith of the memigers of therr 0ter',1,00,."
The only ground the Ilona, could Ino'e 'u• 004- 'et
. ... etre 40 t ~i
in the Cuff ..street Bank was the rctillar ,r,6 ' „00,,
which distinguished it from other eoe,J,',e ceo.feotilt
30,0001. was brought forward lo).: 11;-- 6e4biioOF
and attoepted by din itiOoritY, DI rape
went of the %toil tioi. Ue OA

re'
of
aleol
fern'
s 'or
I the

o
ir?
id.ll°

Kith
o 13/11°

tile°
le
004
ip r 0
e
bid ci.jiti
Abt°,l
g"'

soidf
; evel
_ortioe,
Volo°%s
etre
5 Der
V 0 ii
.0°
$De
aeod
it 00
r.) 00
0 00
000::
tntt
fl"
r el
00
Ptscair°'
dOavr

t

-

whether strictly the Government were justified in
Malting any grant; but eeein.: that 30,0001. had already
been voted, he telt, though sympathising as much as any
Member with the sufferers, bound to oppose the motion
of the Hon. Member.
Mr. HERBERT thought that as the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer could no:
yet have h :d time to consider all the details of the ques-
tion, it would have been better if the Hon. Member for
Dublin' bad delayed a little bridging um question for-
ward. Ile did not deny thet, in the present case, the
loss had arisen from the want of ability and want of
honesty on the part of the trustees; but it ought to to
recollected that the Act passed by the House in 1844
bad taken away the responsibility of the trustees, and
had not given any protection to the depositors against
Want of none,ty on the part of trustees. He admitted
that there was no case in which depositors in savings banks
had been compensated by the Government in case of
failure; but he might remind the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer that compensation had been granted to the suf-
ferers by the Exchequer- bill frauds of 1842. True, they
were rich merchants, and not poor men. He had heard
with satisfaction that the whole subject was to receive
the attention of the Government. That being the case,
he would advise the Hon. Member for Dublin to with-
drew his motion for the present.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND re-
commended' the Hon. M mber for Dublin to withdraw
the motion, and said a few words in explanation of the
Opinions he had expressed on the question. He still re-
tained those opinions, and had formed them in conse-
quence,of the admissions iu the report that the Commis'
stoners for the Reduction of the National Debt had not
exercised the powers with which they were entrusted.
No question was of mote importance to the community
than that of savings barks, and ho rejoiced to know that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was about to direct
his attention to the subject. Be hoped-indeed he had
reason to believe—that arrangements were in contempla-
tion for ptitting those institutions on a basis which would
give that security to depositors to which they were en-
titled. Under these circumstances he recommended
the Honourable Member for Dublin not to press the
motion to a division.
Mr. feljelE concurred with the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, that the loss in this case had arisen
from the fault of the public officers. That being the
case, the responsibility in his opinion fell ultimately on
the Government. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had told them that the whole question would be consi-
dered, he recommended the Hen, Member for Dublin to
Withdraw his motion.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY was one of those who had
objected to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer posing
any, grant of Public money on the ground of charity.
The Commissioners for the Reduction of the National
Debt had neglected their duty in allowing the bank to re-
ceive deposits when they ought to have known that it was
insolvent. Having already voted 30,0001., the Howe
• Was bound, he thought, to vole the remaining 34,000/.
Ile would divide with the Hon. Member for Dublin if
'he essed his motion to a division, but after what had
been said he would advise the Hon. Gentleman to with.
draw' it.
Mr. SCULLY thought the motion was one which
could not with justice be resisted. The report of the
Committee showed that the Cuffec-street Savings Bank
Stood in a different position from the other cases of
savings banks which bad failed. The grant of 30 000/.
in 1850 'was an admission that such was the case. There
Were the same grounds now as in that year, for grant-
ing compensation, and if the Hon. Member divided he
Should vote with Mtn.
Mr. GROGAN said he had heard with much plea-
Sure the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that the whole question of the savings banks was to
friesconsidered be
by the Government, but he regretted to
find the Right Huts. Gentleman declaring that be re-
garded the case of the depositors in the Cuffe-street
Savings Bank as finally settled by the grant of 30,0001.
If it had been thought right to grant that sum, tie was
•at a loss to conceive why the remaining 10s. in the
pound should be refused. His Hun. Colleague might
have brought that question prematurely before the
House. but that circumstance could not effect the justice
Of the case.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said it appeared to him to be
moat desirable that the Government should without any
delay take into their consideraaion the expediency of
milking a change in the existing law with respect to
• laving* banks, in order to protect the public as well as
depositors.
Mr. REYNOLDS replied. If the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would give him an assurance that he would,
during the present session of Parliament, reconsider that
question without pledging himself to any particular
course with respect to it, be (Mr. Reynolds) should not
Press his motion to a division; but without some such
assurance on the part of the Night Hon. Gentleman, he
should deem it his duty to divide the House on the ques-
tion. He found on the benches opposite seven Hon.
Members who had voted with him on that subject in the
)rear 1850. Among them was the Noble Lord the Mere-
Der for Tyrone (Lord C. Hamilton), the Hon. and Gal-
lant Colonel the Member for Portarlington (Colonel
Dunne), the Honourable Member for the University of
Dublin (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), and the colleague of that
Honourable Member, the Attorney-General for Ireland.
The latter Honourable and Learned Gentleman
had promised his constituents at the period of his
re-election that be would continue to advocate the
claim of those depositors; he had also pledged himself
to him (Mr. Reynolds) that he would second that mo-
tion, and like an honourable and honest man he had
that evening redeemed his pledge. He regretted to find
that the eloquence of the first law officer of the Crown
in Ireland appeared to have produced so little effect on
the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and he could not help
expressing a hope that her Msjesty's Ministers would
listen to their Irish advisers, whenever the counsel they
might give should be of a benevolent character.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... ..• ... 40
Against it
• Majority against the motion —129
INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT PARTNER-
SHIPS.
Mr. SLANEY, after having presented two petitions
'froni'Leeds and another place in favour of a messure for
legalising the formation of industrial and provident part-
nerships, proceeded to move for leave to introduce a
.Eill for the purpose of carrying out that object. He
laid it was mest desirable to afford the middle and
,poorer classes the means of safely investing their
savings for their own benefit. That subject had al-
ready attracted on several occasions the consideration
of the House. In the course of the last session he bad
obtained a Committee which had inquired into the law
of partnership, and the obstacles which that law threw
in the way of investments by the humbler classes, and
that Committee had recommended the removal of those
obstacles. Under the existing system if a number of
Poor people were to put their savings together, and if
any single person among them were to take hold of the
Partnership property, there was no tribunal before
which he could be brought to answer for his misdeed,
and there was no mode by which any dispute between
the parties could be decided. His object was to devise
a remedy for that evil. He asked that the provisions
of the Friendly Society Act, the 13th and 14th of Vic-
toria, might be extended to the industrial and provident
partnerships among the bumbler clss'es.
• On the motion of an Hose MEMBER the House was
here counted ; but it having been ascertained that
there were 40 Members present the sitting 'Was con-

tinned: •
Mr. SLANEY then concluded by moving for leave
to bring in the Bill.
The motion having been seconded,
ever to ' allo
Mr. WA.LPOLE said there was no objection what-
' 6he itiblr W the Hon. Gentleman to bring in a Bill on
t t, the details of which could be discussed at a
future
1402'9E3 IZ.
5 Iteenrclingly given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. EwAit,,UBLIC LIBRARIES.
mittee on putdie red the re-appointment of a Com-
ing further returns ribraries, for the purpose of print-
ing to public libraries abroad.—
agreed to.
ARTERIAL DRAINAGE—IRELAND.
Cdr. FRENCH, in Mmoving fur leave to bring in a Bill
to amend the Acts relating to
pite arterial drainage in Ire-
land, observed that the s' at present in operation in
that country gave great dissatisfaction,preenut in "ateo half the existing
suspension. . He
works being at
Lllttinisters to the
would
leavo to
begged the attention of her Diajests,
state of the law; and, whether htew
bring in this Bill or not, his object
her Majesty's Government would turn b e gained if
choir attention

to it. LOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
The CHANCE the
of the
subject had been under the consideration
:vernment, as he had found papers referring toat late t
on
Corning into office. His Right Hon. Friend the Attor-
ney-General for Ireland was fully aware of the import-
• ance of the subject, and be (the Chancellor of the Ez_
Chequer) could assure the Hon. Gentleman opposite that
the matter would not fail to engage the attention of her
Majesty's Ministers.
Mr. FRENCH then withdrew his motion.
_ THE LATE ATTACK ON LAGOS.
Mr. HUME moved for copies of the instructions Of
M
the Lords of the Admiralty, dated the 14th day
of Oc-
tober, 1851, to Commodore Bruce, or the officer in com-
mand of her Majesty's ships of war on the west coast of
Africa, with copies or extracts of all treaties and corre-
spondence, to show the nature of the alliance with the
African,chief Akitoge; also copies or extracts of the
instructions to Mr. Consul BPecroft, by which he assem-
bled 500 natives under the chief Akitoge to join her
Majesty's forces in the war against Lagos; and copies of
such dispatches as will show the causes of the war with
that chief. Of the proclamation of war against Kosoko,
the chief or king at Lagos; and an account of the num•
ber of officers and men killed and wounded in the
several actions at or near that town in December, 1851.
Of the proclamation or offer of reward for tbo capture
of Kosoko. And copies or extracts of the dispatches
from the Admiralty and Foreign-office in answer to
Commodore Bruce's and Mr. B ,ecrott's letters ; and
also of the orders for hoisting the British colours
at Lagos.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
there was no objection whatever to granting the papers
moved for by the Hon. Gentleman.
SIR J. BROOKE.
Mr. HUME moved that an humble address be pre-
thlted to her Majesty for a copy of a letter from Mr.
....-Lobert Burns to Lord Palmerston, dated Singapore,
June 28 1851, with its enclosures, complaining of the
obstructions and discouragements he had received to his
commercial affairs in Borneo at the bands of her Ma-
jesty's Commissioner and Consul-General to the Sultan
snd independent chiefs of Borneo, while prosecuting his
lawful commercial proceedings in that country, together
With a copy of any answers thereto.
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND said, the Hon. Gentle-
tclan a few nights ago had given notice of a motion
himilar to the present, but that motion contained a state-
nOi , the fact, .The,egme opentio vas

..~.:~ .~

THE

performed by the Hon. Gentleman several timer last
year. He kept continual motions on the paper relating
to the conduct of Sir James Bro,ke, 'and upon the same
principle, he supposed, that calumny, like flattery, should
be laid on thick enough, so that some of it at last might
stick, he had contrived to keep that gentleman's name be-
fore the House until the end of the session. The Hon.
Gentleman had had the kindness and urbanity to write
him a private letter to beg him to take the earliest op-
portunity, when this stfrj.ct came before the House, to
make some amend erespeoting some observations which he
(Mr. Drummond) had made t,:s applied to a Mr. Miles
last year. He replied to the lion. Gentleman in general
terms that be would not do that justice to Mr. Miles
which the Hon. Gentleman had requested him to do, but
he would do that justice to Mr. Miles in his place in
that House whenever an opportunity occurred, Re-
peatedly bad he sought that opportunity, but never had
he been Ghle to get one; and be was not now going to apo-
logise, or extenuate, or deny one word he bad said last
year; on the contrary, he had only insinuated last year,
and now he was going to assert positively-0. laugh)—
that the letter of this Miles, which the Elonourable
Gentleman published in the papers, and which he (Mr.
Drummond) proved to the Hon. Gentleman in that
House was a forgerys--(" No," from Mr. flume)—he
proved it to be a forgery, for he showed from the hand-
writing of that gentleman—a gentleman ho would not
call him-(A laugh)—of that man—that he could neither
spell nor write. Nevertheless, that false testimony the
Hon. Gentleman made use of, and never had he ex-
plained either to Sir J. Brooke or to that House why
he brought forward that false testimony. He (Mr.
Drummond) thought he had asserted that Miles, upon
whose information the lion, Gentleman relied, was a
runaway convict. He insinuated it before; he now
said it and he said that Miles was worse—that he was
a thoroughly worthless fellow—(Hear, and. a laugh)—
and he would now proceed to prove what he had stated.
He had an affidavit by a Mr. Henry Adams, which was
as follows:

"Western Austraia, Perth, Oct. 10, 1851.

"I, Henry Adams, late of Adelaide, in the province of
South Australia, but now of the colony of Western Aus-
tralia, master mariner, master and owner of the schoOner
Unknown, solemnly &Oar@ as follows:—That is to say,
that I was, in the police force in the province of. South
Australia for about 15 months; that a perscn who passed
by the name of Peter Loyd kept a house of ill fame called
the Scotch Thistle; that the police force always had their
eyes on the said Peter Loyd as he was coesidered livery
bad character, and that the Scotch Thistle was frequently
searched by the police for stolen goods, and for persona
suspected of robberies; that I saw a man called William
Miller accuse the said Peter Loyd openly upon a race-
cuurse in South Australia of having picked his pocket,
when several bystanders declared they had seen the theft
committed by the said Peter Loyd, and when I saw the
said Peter Loyd return the said William Miller the sum
of 35., being the amount alleged to have been stolen from
him on that occasion by the said Peter Loyd; that the
stores of Messrs. Murray and Gregg, of Adelaide, were
robbed, and that there was very strong grouted for sus-
pecting the robbery had been committed by the said
Peer Loyd, acid a man named Ring; that, accord-
ingly a reward was offered by the local Government for
their apprehension, and the p dice were sent in search of
them, but were un.ble to arrest them, as they rode to
Cape Jervis, and suco eded in getting on board a vessel
shortly before the arrival of the police in pursuit; that I
knew him, Peter Loyd, well during his residence in Ade-
laide, and that he there lived with a woman who passed
as his wife, and who escafed with him from Cape Jervis;
that I heard this woman state that he, Peter Loyd, was
a runaway convict: that did not again see the said
Peter Loyd until the year 1844, when he arrived at
Freemantle, in the said colony of West Australia as
owner of the Buffalo, from Singapore, and passed under
the name of William Henry Miles; that I at once recog-
nised him, and could not be mistaken as to his identity ;
that I than heard be was about to be married to
a daughter of Mr. Wickstsad, who kept a public-
house at Fremantle, and that I conceived it to be my
duty to, and I accordingly did, communicate to Mr.
Wickatead what I knew of the said Peter Loyd or Wil-
liam Henry Miles, and particularly that I had reason
to believe he was then a rationed man; that I afterwards
met at Singapore several persona who informed me that
the woman whom I had formerly known as the wife of
the said P. Loyd, or W. H. Miles, at Adelaide, and also
Mrs, Miles, the daughter of the said M Wicks
r.ead,
whom the said P. Loyd or W. H. Miles d at
Freemantle aforesaid, hod both been resident at Singa-
pore together; but I did not on that occasion see the
said P. Loyd or W. 11. Miles, as he was then at La-
buan, where I learned he had gone to lease or work a
coal mine.
(Signed) "H. E. ADAMS.
" Subscribed by the abov.natned H. E. Adams in my
presence,
1851.
at. Perth, Western Australia, this 10th day of
October,
(Signed) W. H. Mecxre, J.P.,
" Commissioner of the Civil Court of Western
Australia, and Chairman of the Court of
Quarter Sessions."
It was upon the authority of that man that the Hon.
Gentleman brought forward all his charges against Sir
J. Brooke last year—(" No!" from Mr.liume)—and that
was the man whom the Hon. Gentleman called upon
him, on the authority of a respectable London merchant
to do justice to. The respectable London merchant
stood godfather for the respectability of Peter Loyd, a
partner in his veracity and in his respectability. Would
the Hon. Gentleman be so good as to tell the House who
was that respectable English merchant? Respectable!
—yes, a man that kept a gig.—(A laugh.)
Mr. HUME hoped the non. Gentleman who had just
spoken would tell the House where he had got the docu-
ment from which he had just read. For himself, he
would say that he did not believe a word of the allega-
tions contained in it. He had stated to the hap. Gen-
tleman, that as be had in his place calumniaa d Mr.
Miles, he thought it was an act of justice to explain it,
and he asked the lion. Gentleman whether he had seen
the proceedings that had taken place in the court at Sin-
gapore for a libel, in consequence of the statement
mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. Miles's letter
was given to him by a merchant on whose authdrity he
relied, and he published it on that authority—the autho-
rity of a respectable English merchant in this country.
,The Honourable Gentleman had on a former occasion
produced a document, and said that Mr. Miles could not
write. The letter, c:rtainly, was badly spelt; and, if
that was a type of what that individual could write, he
should say it was not very creditable. But, how did
that letter get into the possession of the Hon. Gentle-
man ? Was it stolen when the troops made the attack
which had been referred to at the suggestion of Sir J.
Brooke ? end did that Hon. Gentleman know that Mr.
Miles had brought an action in the Court of Singapore
against Sir J. Brooke or his agent ? In the opinion of
the judge at Singapore the real libeller was the Hon.
Member for Surrey. As ti Sir James Brooke, his con-
duct bad continued as monstrous as it had begun. Be-
fore any satisfaction had been made for his previous
excesses, Sir James Brooke, on the 31st of July, had
an ambush laid for 4 000 persons, whim, in order to
create a pretext for plundering them, be chose to call
pirate, whereas they were not pirates, nor anything of
the ,ort. 01 those 4.000 persons 500 were barbarously
slaughtered, and 1,500 to re or less injured. oFoorvetrhne-
mits,;acre and injuries of these poor people the
meat had to pay 20,700/. ; yet no inquiry was to be
granted into this barbel us and disgraceful outrage.
An HON. MEMBER here moved that the House be
counted; and, it being fouud that only thirty-three
Members were present,
The Howe atiEight o'clock stood adjourned till this day

SUN,

THE AUSTRALIAN COLONIES
AND TRANSPORTATION,
A large deputation of mercantile rnd other gentlemen gentlemen
connected with the Australian colonies had an interview
with the Right Hon. Sir J. Pskington on Wednesday,-at
the. Colonial-cffice, on the subject of transportation.
There wore present—Sir W. Molesworth, M P., Mr.
Ewart, M.P., Mr. Adderley, M,P., and Mr. Chishohn
Anstey, M.P.; and the following gentlemen, represen-
ting the four colonies of New South: Wales, Van Die-
men's Land, Victoria, and South Australia:—Meieffs. R.
Brooke, C. McLachlan, E. Gore, W. Jackson, S. Ken-
nard, G. H. Denaldson, W. Fanning, A. .Michie, W.
Walker, J. A. Jackson, T. S. Atkine, J. C. King, G.
Morphett—Bolton, and James Alexander.
Sir W. MOLESWORTII, after introducing the gentle-
men present, observed that they sought this interview in
coast queues of having heard that several ships containing
convicts were about to sail for Hobart Town, and they
would intrent Sir J. Pekin gton to stop the sailing of
these vessels, and not to transport any more convicts
to Van Diecneu's Lend in opposition to the wishes
of the inhabitants of that and the other Australian
colonies, a:td in violation of the promise of the
British Government that transportation to Van Die-
men's Land should be abolished. Sir. William then
referred to the particulars of that promise, the dis-
content its non-fulfilment had produced, and the nume-
rous petitions received during
the last five years from
the bishop, archdeacons, clergy of all denominations, pa-
rents and guardians, women', and, in short, the vast ma-
jority of the inhabitants. All the other colonies sympa-
thised with Van Diemen's Land; and they also knew
that, in c. nsequence of the overstocking of Van Dieinen's
Land with convicts, transportation to that colony was, in
fact, transporation to all the colonies. A great Austra-
lasian League had been formed, and was supported by
leading men in all the colonies. Large Meetings had
been held, not only in Van Diemen's Land, but in Syde
any, Paramatta, Melbourne, Geelong, and Adelaide, at
which resolutions complaining of the breach of faith of
the British Government were carried by acclamation.
FfOtri one of these meetings ho (Sir William),had this
year presented a 'petition to the House of Commons,
signed by the Metropolitan Bishop of Sydney, the
Roman Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, and by 8,900
persons. He had another petition, as numerously
sinned, still to present. On the 29th July last a large
public meeting bad been held at Sydney, and an
addreie to her Majesty was agreed to, praying the
dismissal of the Secretary of St ate for the
Colonies in consequence of his continuing to
send convicts to Van Diemen's Land. Since then the L -
gishsture of New South Wales had unanimously passed
a resolution against transportation to any of the Austra-
lian colonies. He was informed that all the members
elected to serve under the now constitution for Van Die-
men's Land were pledged to oppose transpcirtation.
Lastly, the few respectable persons who were in favour
of the convict system had become anti-trinsportationists
in consequence of the gold discoveries, for they consi-
dered it madness to send convicts to an El Dorado, and
one of the surest means of encouraging crime. He as-
sured Sir J. Pakington that the Australian colonies
were on the eve of becoming, potent States; their inha-
bitants were inclined to be thoroughly attached and de-
votedly loyal to the British Empire. They would long
entertain those feelings if wisely and prudently governed;
but the continuation of transportation would soon
destroy those feelings of attachment and loyalty.
Mr. EWART begged to remind Sir J. Pakington that
he (Mr. Ewart) had attended at the Colonial-Office
with a highly respectable deputation of colonists, on
this very subject, as far back as the year 1846, when
they had the honour of urging on the then Secre-
tary of State a consideration of the fearful condition- of
Van Diemen's Lsnd,in conseqaenee of the excess of the
convict population there. Tnat deputetion he believed,
had induced the then Government to suspend for two
years further transportation to that colony—a measure
which was generally considered to be merely prelimi-
nary to the total discontinuance of the system. The
time, therefore, had now arrived when the subject.
should be definitively settled to the satisfaction of the
colonists—a result which he regretted to say had been
by far too long delayed.
Mr. AnnEneEr followed, urging on the Secretary of
State: the paramount importance of the Government
keeping faith with the colonists, and vindicating its
own credit by acting up to the promise which had been
made to them by Lord Grey that transportation should
be discontinued. That it would not be honest to neg-
lect to do so. He referred to the great and universal
excitement among the colonists upon die Subject, and to
the extensive organisation by means of " the Australa-
sian League." Ho urged the policy of at once Owl-
doning a course as unstatesmanlike as it would prove
abortive, and further perseverance in which would only
exasperate the Australian colonies, and eventually lead
to an organised resistance, similar to that which had
been successfully carried out by the colonists of the
Cape ; and he expressed his firm belief that if the Bri-
tish Government- suffered one other such defeat as had
been sustained in the cese of that colony, it would go
far to destroy our colonial empire. In his opinion it
was a consideration that transcended all others, and
compared with which all suggestions of possible embar-
rassment or inconvenience to Governments sank into ab-
solute insignificance—that this great country should up-
hold its character by honestly and faithfully keeping all
its engagements with every one of its dependencies.
Mr. ANSTEY had also participated in the movement
referred to by Mr. Ewart in 1846, and had hoped for a
successful result long before this. He had every motive
to induce him to co-operate on such an occasion, as he

had immediate family connexions in two of the colonies.
His brother had lately contested successfully the repre-
sentation of an important constituency in Van Diemen's
Land, and corroborated the statements of Sir W. Moles-
worth. He had last year presented a petition to the
House of Commons of a very interesting character from
the native born colonists of the island, and it would here-
after be his duty to draw the attention of the House to
the important statements it contained. He forcibly
urged the claims of the colony on the immediate atten-
tion of her Majesty's Government; and observed, that
if the active agitation hitherto carried on against trans-
portation in Van Diemen's Land had of late abated, it
was because the recent gold discoveries in the adjacent
colony of Port Philip bad led to the belief that it would
be wholly impossible to continue it any longer.in face of
such an event. _ _

Mr. WICRIE begged to offer, as a New SoUth Wales
colonist of nine year.' experience,
commencing in 1841,
his unqualified corroboration of every statement which
had been urged by Sir W. Molesworth and Mr. Adder-
ley. Tne attendance that day of gentlemen from almost
every Australasian colony was induced by the all impor-
tant fact, that although the five ships that had been
montioncd by Sir W. Molesworth were nominally des-
tined tor Van Diemen's Land exclusively, the convicts
carried out by those vessels would very soon be dispersed
throughout New South Wales, Port Philip, and South
Australia. It was matter of notoriety that for years past
Van Dlernen's Land had been so saturated with the felon
population that a practice had for some time past pre-
vailed at Hobart Town (under the sanction of the Go-
vernment) of granting conditional pardons, permitting
prisoners, very soon after their arrival from England, to
proceed as free men to any of the neighbouring settle-
ments. The effect of this practice was merely to con-
vert Van Diemen's Land into a conduit pipe through.
which felons were poured by hundreds into the neigh-
bAiring colonies, and the latter consequently suf-
fered all the evils, without any of the mitigations
which had accompanied the former direct transporta-
tion to New South Wales. It had not a little asto-
nished the colonists, generally, to find that Lord Grey
had actually relied on and put forward—they trusted
from nsibapprehension alone—one of these very evils of
his own system as evidence of the groundlessness of the
universal opposition to further transportation. His Lord-
ship had cited the criminal statistics of the free colony
of South Australia as showing the offences against the
law to be there in almost, it not quite, as large propor-
tion as in Van Diemen's Land itself. The fact was, as
any official in the judicial establishment of South Aus-
tralia could inform his Lordship, at least three-fourths of
the convictions in that colony were of convicts who had
come over from Van Diemen's Laud—and this was a
fact of colonial notoriety. The same observation would
equally apply to New South Wales and Port Philip.
Upon the whole, therefore, the latter colonists were so
all but unanimous in deprecating a recurrence to a state
of things such as obtained down to the year 1840—
when it was unsafe to travel alone two miles out of Syd-
ney—that the colonists of New South Wales alone had
petitioned, to the number of 35,000, against a resump-
tion of transportation, and only 525 petitions were in
favour of it; these latter too—few as they were—includ-
ing all the dependents that some few flock masters,
chiefly anxious for labour of any kind, might be able to
muster. No acts of violence had as yet ensued, but.it
was evident to every colonist that, among the vast and
mixed congregation of people making to the gold fields
of New SOuth Wales and Port Philip, a large admix-
ture of convicts must inevitably lead to scenes of bloody
outrage that would disgrace the English name through-
out the world.
Mr. J. A. JACKSON observed that_ he had that morn,

mg received by the Overland mail a letter from Van
Di-men's Land, which corroborated the intelligence•re-
ceived by way of Sydney, of the elections having beep
favourable to the anti-transportationists—the members
for Hobart Town, the capital, being no other than the
president and treasurer of " the League" in Vim
Diemen'd Land. The Government had thus, in the
most constitutional way, the opinion of the colonists on
transportation. .Mr. Jackson proceeded to show that-the
colonists had little alternative now between ruining
themselves or employing convicts; and, therefore, their
employment of convicts was not conclusive that—tishad
grew
.to man's estate,
been alleged—they had begun to change their minds,
L transportation were at an end, their land fund would
be applicable to sending out free labour; they would
minty in South Awusotu.r
receive hick many of the free people who had been
driven out of the island, and the native lads, as they
all the crime committed
their birth.
[ trated
Mr. G.
Aue ~. MORPHETT (brother of the first Speaker of the
1 nladi
Australia
rep retained
resentedin thethat
l land
nearly
free colony had been r
had become South Australia was perpe-
meieneognieed in different Acts of Par-
founthel as a free
by old convicts;
colony, and whose character as a
effect a receptacle for a largo
and this colony, originally
aiie7uelintt'obt • Although the colonists had hitherto
borne this infliction, and their
loyalty,
yet there was a limit to human was unimpaired,
extent of crime committed in South
Australia by men
endurance. The great
who had been convicts had been much
•by the Learned Judges of the Supreme remarked upon
pretne Court in that
colony.
Mr. KING observed that the Noble Lord lately at the
head of the Colonial Department had, on
sion, when he had had the honour of an interviewrecent Qua -
his Lordship, observed that the criminal returns
rn with
Van
a"
Diemen's Land would bear a not very nut' 8 of
urabl comparison with even those of the originally free
colony
of 8 mat Australia. Mr. King adduced
some vary ria.,
maditibie 114tiitiCIS on this 14 t
LI btk 90 1 PhOlYillg bQW en.
. . .

'

tirelyrerrcrneons the Noble Lord's views Were With re-
spect to.it., :
Sir J. PAKINGTON,iII reply, expressed his gratification
at listening to the statements of.so: many gentlemen so
well qualified to express their COM-A& on the very im-
portant subject-of transportation, and with which there
was n'o 'person better acquainted than the Hon. Baronet
Sir. William,Molesworth. He had himself devoted much
attentioiVas a Member of Parliament, to the general
subject
_ef punishments, though not, he confessed, to
transportation in particular. With respect to the report
of five convict vessels being ordered for Van aensen'a
Land. there was a mistake in this; four only were under
orders, and this, he believed, was from an inadvertence
on the part ofthe'Noble Lord,' his predecessor.' He (Sir
John) had alresdy arranged for diverting one of those
vessels in-nnether direction, and he hoped to do so with
another. As regarded the alleged breach of faith, it
was clear he,'(Sir John) wasp not responsible on this
head. He could assure the gentlemen present that the
importance of the subject of transportation was duly
appreCiated ' by
him, and would receive his utmost
consideration. He would, however, state (slew facts,
as he. found them on his accession to office. Western
Australia petitioned for convicts, and the settlers
in Moreton Bsy - petitioned for them, and sought.
separation from New South Wales, for the purpose of
receiving convicts. A petition had been lately received
from 144 landholders
in Van Diemen's Land,
praying the continuance of a modified system
of transportation. He merely stated these as facts, not
denying that. there was nndotahtedly a very great feeling
of oppoeition fe the continuance of transportation. Then
he would ask whether the objection to transportation did
not rather apply to the system as it existed formerly—
to the ",gang system?" As regarded at once
_meeting
the wishes of the gentlenken present, he thought they
would see; so recent as was his accession• to office, that
it aiotild be impossible at present to do more than assure,
them that thensubject should engage his early attention,
'find that heave & much iodebted to the gentlemen present,
for expressing.their-views respecting it.
Sir W. M9nEstworeris thanked the Right Hon. Gentle-
man on behalf of .the deputation, for the courtesy of his
'
reception, and for baying at least arrested the sailieg of
two of Abe convict' ships destined for Van Diemen'a
Land; but there was one subject upon which he would
beg leave to add very few 'words. Sir J. Pakington
Mightuot.be responsible for the breach of faith commit-
ted towards the colonists, but a breach of faith commit-
ted towards the State was the breach of faith of the Go-
vernment. The colonists knew no individuals. They
knew that the British Government had pledged itself
to a particular act, and the British Government, by,
whemeaemeadaiinistered, was responsible for its per-
formancee .
The deputation then retired, favourably impressed
with the rnarinerpf their reception.

it be that of
The majority of mankind think the right 'of private
judgment either „wholly inapplicable to political ques-
tions, or only to be called into exercise as a last recourse.
Of course, there is a species of what
10els,TCE-.
may be almost
respectable
somepeeta
bdliesicilni
drink, It
steep in natural
the man who at
crisisnthalilsepdraenseinaatalon a superior mind or
name. u°,:lpspoyme venerable junta
Russell, or that
of Derby, or that of Cobden, or that of some h l'
ot er po o•
tician leading or seeking a party. at is
one's work set one, to eat, pleasant to have
comforte ipni pin leaninghi s fai t h
and healthy proportions, and, when one wakes .ne,
p to
ciguueis,bewdhether
be told what to do. It saves a world of anxiety to fall
into line, and to know that one's conduct will be guided,
explained, and; if necessary, defended, by competent
authority. When the guisaof loyalty is
thrown over
this mental subserviency, the satisfaction and the il-
lusion are complete. It is h very true that they who
resign the pains of 'independence may occasionally
be disturbed with a disagreeable presentiment. They
may find themselves approaching a 'rock, a shoal,
or aet. - abyss, without seeing hobo they are to
-escape e 'and the alarms of, those who don't think
for themselves ate nut always imaginary. As they
say, however, that brace
creatures cannot suffer _ any-
thing like human anguish because their
anticipations
are momentary, faint, and without the sense of respon-
sibility, we presume that the sufferings of a thorough
partisan must be tempered to his moderate capacity of
endurance. But all this time we are expatiating on a
happiness : which .can never bo ours. Though we can
admire our acknOwledged statesmen, of whatever school,
and even ouregiettapolitical chiefs, yet we can never
feel it our vocation to adhere without reserve to any one
Government, hnwever feeble, however intractable, or
perverse. • The British people does not; neither do we.
Much is,due to _a meritorious party, but still more is
due to the country, and there mast and do arise occa-
sions when a blind affection to party is little less than
an Abnegation of .patriotism. Should matters come to
that pass that no one party will suffer for one day the
ascendancy of another, even tinder the humblest and
safest- cottlittotts;-it is evidefit that we are far on oar
road, if not to atititrchy and ruin, at least to serious neg-
lects and disasters. .If,public opinion and its organs are
worth anything in this country, and if they have any
province' at all, it surely is for them to inculcate such a
mutual forbearance of parties as shall at least avert a
disruption of society and a consequent shipwreck of the
State.
such is the position of affairs, such the danger, and
such we conceive to be cur duty at this juncture. As
long as the Russell Administration was possible, we
gave it our support; and, were it possible to-morrow,
we should spare no pains to restore it. Could its
strength be renewed by new men or new measures, with
the hope of something more than a temporary relief or
an illusive popularity, we should, as we have done be-
fore, do all in our power to give it a fresh term of ex-
istence.. But painful and repeated experience leaves no
doubt that it answers: no good purpose whatever—not
even a factious
,purpose—to attempt the resuscitation of
an effete Cabinet. You may as easily make an old man
young again as impart a second youth to a Government
which has exhausted its strength, its opportunities, its
friendshipe, its measures, its ideas, its prestige without,
and its resources • within. The infusion of new blood
and the Substitution of new limbs are metaphors which
only express too aptly the utter iteposeibitity of those
fancied remedies. We never conceive it oar duty
to give: 'impracticable can
l s advice, after the
manner of the doctor whoat' use
es
only of his bill or his
fee. Others may; ifitim thinks
l bread into pills, or
please, rot
label vials of. coloured wY cabalistic terms, but
ater with
we really cannot afforddelusions which time
to practisel
must discover. We c recommend the
British public to go
basic annot hOnbat y.r
We cannot
tell them that what was etodthle old thitthn
gw.ill be alive
next; or that the palaiediTithaoantuar will enter at our
summons a Hyperion or a Hyacinth. As little can we
connive at the supposition that the great forms of this
meiestic Constitution;; including the
es
venerable palladium
of Royalty, are to he liereed for the tablishmeet of a
new Administration, for the imme-
diate re- estebli h
a ment of the old (me on a safer footing.
We might excuse tricks upon party, for, as our new
rulers have not been nice is their warfare upon
others, they deserve Tittle favour return; but we must
in
..
protest against tricks and
on the Constitution on the
'Crown. • ':
B let us
But
Forbearance, fair play,
toleration, are one thin t'ti enthu-
siasm, are another. It "cadence'
sYceePnaot Y'
going to
show the tow Ministera the
erue that we a3r
nt after they
have been' In
to enter. door the in, -
that
we do not
think statesmen should d' lt
ishtrues l s, the House
ne Commons veil
mad the isgrace teem•e ve
sorted to, a
atle'the country worst arts of faction be re-
d to think of re-
volution, merely; simply, f t the ridiculoua
purpose t 4 dragging try, and solely or
a. gain the clique which only the
other day -went out of But ins •i
itsown accord.
that WO htive said nearly cannot thiek the) ng
po-
sition of the new Government all.,
We
nment either veryhonourable, or
very triunipha,uti or even simple and clear. We cannot
regard wikh confide/10
tensions. We
can
hardly
either their power or their in-
definite parley. Brill less
trust them for having any
t do we think that they have
the promise of that ?dies. which, on the vulgarest
considerations, we all
In the first place, there us require in a Government.
ere is nothing very honourable in
an appeal to the forbearance, whether that forbearance
bo to the Minister or
the country. That forbearance is
only to be exercised not to the weakness, but still more
to the character, of the t Party. We are to bear meekly
_Y which is not only beholden to
our forbearance, but
is
offender. also in the position of a great
Having for several years obstinately
refused its adhesion to a great, beneficent, sad irrever-
sible act—laving pursued
the illustrious author of that
act with insatiable malignity, and having for all that
power period excluded from its own boasted Conserva-
tive principles merely to
ePitimish the man, it has no
w claims to our respect. to swallow not only the
Government but our own feelings, :gilt and we have to swal-
low them voluntarily, for the eof the common weal.
And when we ask what the. Goa
vernment is to do for all
this, or ake rather what we
to do, the estimate of its hope and expect it
dignity falls still lower.
It is to perform a great rcP iatory and peni-
tential act. It has to renounce
that
Protection far
which, with some abatement latterly,it has been so
long strug a ling. 'lt has to recant
selfish and invete-
rate error.e. itehas ta,set the country free, not from the
fear tot Vroteetiiin;' but from' the nif
faetiatisielass oakositione That this tsanee of a stupid and
t 4 a substantial benefit
worth some forhe d aran, and some
do not
to our na-
tural and honourable feelings, we dh not at all question,
and, as a teledeOf the future, we T 1 with satisfaction
Lord • Derby'rttier abandonment the Navigation
Laws last Monday eveuing. - But all this winding-up of
controversies, this confession of errore this allaying of
prejudices, this surrender of long.contested positions, is.
more " humble and useful" than dignified; and, when it
is done,, adds but little in the nature of,
to the Claims of, the party; for to pardon positive merits
a penitent is
one thing-Lto admit him into our confluence is another.
The ferbearance which we have inculcated, and which
we desire to observe, is wholly irrespective opi-
nions as to the power, or even the intentions,
of our
ions' of the Go-
vernment. Bottt its power and its intention limited
by the nature of its origin, and the very terms of
its ex-
istence. The pledges fione which Lord Derby and his
celleagues have been gradually emancipating themselves,
and from which they now evidently wish to be entirely
relieved, are by no means the chief obstacle to their
power. Besides the pledges of the leaders, there are the
ithe passions, and the suppose
• prejudices, d interests of
tho followers—things much more substantial and &est!.
nit() than any mere expressions', however distinct and
solemn. A. large and powerful interest has been flat-
tered, coaxed, exasperated•these many .
years into an
f its net •
extravagant conceit e .ural rights and its po-
litical -initial"; it has been. taught to rely on its
own superior intelligence, and to distrust every states-
man who Ventuecd to address it in the language of rev
soneend eoinmota sense, ta• to put it on a level with other
' interests:' ;It nOtv remains to be seeia whether the 'agri
culturists will readily conform to the more moderate tone
"and-the more senOble standard of political right adoPted
by their Conservative chiefs. After a six yearsseoession
• from the ommenwelvithi! op they easily puss to, the.