The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, tiESDAIi" EVENING, JULY 21, IfM,

lord the toreign Sec.etary, and he thought the Government
were justified in urging the six points upon Russia, but in
common with others he dJubted whether Poland would be
satisfied with them.
Mr. C. BEAUMONT, who rose amid loud cries for Lord
Palmerstcti dtnounced the cruelties of Gen. Mouravieff,
but declined to slippc?t the motion, lest it should be re-
garded as a want of confident in her Majesty's Govern-
ment.

Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, my right hon. friend who
has made this motion made a speech marked by his usual
ability, but as he went along it appeared to me that it
was not consistent with itself, and still less with the mo-
tion with which he concluded. It struck me that the
gist of the speech was that mere diplomatic representations
were unavailing unless followed by force—(hear, hear)—and
he seemed also to me to deny the power of public opinion.
Now, I have always thought, and the praise which he gave
to my noble friend for having obtained the concurrence of
most of the States of Europe in representations to Russia,
implies that he thinks also that the force of public opinion
is often almost equal to the force of arms ; and there is no
doubt that the force of public opinion is a most powerful
engine upon the conduct either of men or governments
That which has happened is a striking proof, because in the
discussion which took place in 1831-2, the Russian Govern-
ment of that day denied that we had any right to remon-
strate upon the affairs of Poland. They said that Russia
had conquered Poland alter the revolution, that that con-
quest annulled all the engagements of the treaty of 1815,
and that we were then interfering in a manner which con -
cerned the internal affairs of Russia, and had no right to
meddle with that which belonged to the empire alone. Now,
the ground taken by Russia is entirely different. Yielding,
no doubt, to the joint opinions of so many of the different
Powers of Eur, pe, Russia says she is willing to enter into
a discussion of the affairs of Poland within the limits and
upon the ground of the Treaty of Vienna. I say that is a
great step gained in the discussion with Russia, and that it
does afford a prospect of a better condition of things in
Poland than the former ground taken by Russia entitled us
to expect. The noble lord then referred to the mode in
which Russia became possessed of Poland in 1815, and the
unsuccessful revolution of 1831, and continued : We are
told that there is no alternative now but either remaining
perfectly passive, or insisting upon the establishment of
Poland within its ancient limits. Well, if all the Powers of
Europe were prepared to immediately go to war with Rus-
sia, to compel her to restore everything which has been
taken from Poland, then I could understand that it might be
thought desirable that the object of such combination should
be the establishment of the kingdom of Poland ;
but it is quite clear that that cannot be accomplished by
I,ersuasion, and can only be accomplished by force. But
the only ground upon which we, or any of the other
European powers, are entitled as a matter of international
right to speak to Russia in regard to the treatment of
Poland, is the Treaty of Vienna. That treaty entitles us
to require that certain arrangements shall be established
within Poland ; but the moment you go beyond it, and re-
quire Russia to constitute Poland a i.eparate kingdom, you
throw down the Treaty of Vienna. You have no right
on which such a demand can be made, and it can only be
enforced by war, and successful war. But the Powers of
Europe are not prepared to take that course, though the
right hon. gentleman's speech goes to the length, as I un-
derstand it, of urging such a course, and does not tally with
his resolution. The resolution wishes us to declare that

the Treaty of Vienna is at an end, which will dispossess
ourselves of the right of remonstrance with Russia; and
how we are by that to assist Poland I am at a loss to un-
derstand. We are now entitled to represent to Russia that
she has not fulfilled her treaty conditions towards Poland,
but the moment we say the treaty is at an end, Russia will
accept it and say that Poiand is hers by conquest, and that
she has as much right to govern Poland in the way she
thinks best as she has any other part of her great empire.
(Hear, hear.) So far from that being of any advantage
to the Poles, it would only hand them over tied hand
and foot, to be dealt with according to the pleasure of
General Mouravieff. (Hear, hear.) It would therefore
be a most " lame and impotent conclusion" to agree to
the right hon. gentleman's motion. It was impossible
for her Majesty's Government to remain silent and do
nothing for the Poles. The opinion of this house, of
the country, and of Europe called for some remonstrance
to be made, and I hold it is at variance with the ordinary
transaction of human affairs to say that you will not ne-
gotiate or remonstrate unless you are prepared to have
recourse to arms if you do not obtain by negotiation the
object you are endeavouring to accomplish. (Hear, hear.)
Much, however, was to be gained without having recourse
to such an extreme course. Her Majesty's Government
had done that which was required by public opinion in this
country, and the necessity of the case. We did what we
had a right to do under the Treaty of Vienna, and obtained
the concurrence of the other States of Europe in urging on
Russia a milder course with regard to Poland. It has been
said it will be no satisfaction to Poland if that result is at-
tained, but I cannot see any great foundation for that state-
ment, because her condition must be very much improved

if we establish that condition of things which existed before
the treaty of Vienna. It has been said that we suggested
an armistice that was impracticable; but can any one look
and see the cruelties that are being committed on both sides,
and the loss of life that is occurring, and not wish to see an
end put to those hostilities ? If Russia had agreed to it, I
think there would have been no difficulty about the matter,
because the Polish revolutionary party, who wished to be
represented at the Congress could, no doubt, have been
treated with for an armistice, and I cannot but think that
if an armistice had been agreed to by Russia it would have

resulted in a cessation of the effusion of blood. (Hear, hear.)
I feel eertain that the right hon. gentleman did not expect
her Majesty's Government to state what course they may
think it right to follow in this matter, and the only thing I
can state is that, as we made our communication to the
Russian Government with Austria and France, it will be
our duty to communicate with them upon the answer which
each of the three powers has received from the Russian
Government ; and I am persuaded that the course we may
take—whatever that may be—will be such as will meet with
the approbation of the house. (Hear, hear.)
After some remarks from Mr. HORSMAN in reply, who
said he considered it would be unreasonable then, in con-
sequence of her Majesty's Government having just received
the answer from Russia, to state their intentions upon it,
and that a wrong construction had been put upon the terms
of his motion, he asked to be allowed to withdraw it.
The motion was then withdrawn.
SUPPLY.
The report of supply was bruught up and agreed to.
WAYS AN MEANS.

The report of Ways and Means was also brought up and
agreed to.

TELEGRAPHS BILL.

The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered.

Upon the motion of Mr. GIBSON, the Lords' amend
ments to clause 9 were disagreed to, and some other amend
ments were added.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
The Railway Clauses, Waterworks Clauses, Turnpike Acts
Continuance, Expiring Laws Continuance, Petty Sessions
(Ireland), and Poisoned Grain, &c., Prohibiti, ns Bills.

The Anchors and Chain Cable Bill was withdrawn.

Several other bills were advanced a stage.
THE CHIEF CONSTRUCTOR OF THE NAVY.
Mr. FERRAND moved for returns of the age and length
of service of Mr. E. J. Reed, who has been appointed chief
constructor of the navy. The hon. member looked upon
the appointment as a gross job, and as one that was injuri-
ous to the old officers of the dockyards,
Lord C. PAGET refused the returns, and defended the
appointment.
The house divided. The motion was rejected by 23 to 14.
On the motion of Mr. FERRAND, seconded by Mr.
HENNESSY, leave was refused to the Government to
bring in a bill to reduce the duty on spirits to be used in
arts and manufactures in the United Kingdom.
A bill to provide superannuation allowances for Poor-law
officers was brought in by Mr. Villiers.
The Appropriation Bill was also brought in, and the
house adjourned at half-past two o'clock.

WASHINGTON IRVING'S CALL TO THE BAR.—
Students for admission to the bar had in New York the
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Those who officiated at Irving's call boggled a little, con-
scientiously, when they came to his name. " Martin," said
one to the other, " I think he knows a little law." " Make
it stronger, Joe," was the reply--" damned little :" with
which compliment he passed.— Quarterly Review.
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