The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-11 00:00:00

SUN,

JUN■ 11,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, June 10.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'clock.

PETITIONS.

The Earl of SHAFTESI3URY presented petitions,
from Bolton against the Militia Bill ; from several me-
tropolitan parishes against betting-houses, and a number
of petitions, from different places in the United King-
dom, against the Maynooth grant.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from certain
lords of manors, in Somersetshire, in favour of the en-
franchisement of copyholds.
Lord MONTEAGLE presented two petitions, from
Limerick against the Ecclesiastical Titles Act.
The Earl of ABERDEEN presented a petition from
Paisley to the same effect; also a petition from Jamaica,
praying for relief to the distressed interests of the island.
The Apprehension of Deserters from Foreign Ships
Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Lord COLCHESTER the Differen-
tial Dues Bill passed through Committee.
On the motion of the Earl of SEIAFTESBURY the
General Board of Health Bill was read a seeond time.
On the motion of Lard COLCHESTER the Public
Works Bill passed through Committee.
LAW OF EVIDENCE (SCOTLAND) BILL.

On the motion for the thirdreading of this Bill,
Lord BROUGHAM said it was quite impossible,
supposing that this Bill passed, that the law of
evidence in Scotland should remain for long in the con-
dition in which it would be placed by the Bill. He hoped
that the whole law of evidence as it now stood in Eng-
land would very soon be extended to Scotland.
After a few words from the Earl of MINTO and Lord
CAMPBELL, the Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of the Earl of HARROWBY, the In-
dustrial and Provident Societies Bill passed through
Committee.

LOCAL TAXATION.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM rose, pursuant to notice, to
present a petition from the Wellingborough Union
(Northamptonshire), on the subject of local taxation.
The question was one of considerable importance at the
present moment, and, taken in connexion with a re-
markable document which had been recently published
by a member of her Majesty's Government, was of
especial interest. The. document to which he alluded
was one of very great importance; bat emanating, as it
did, from the Minister who was specially charged with
the administration of the finances of the country, the
interest and value attaching to it could not be too highly
appreciated. The document to which he referred had
appeared in the usual channel of information; it had
attached to it the name of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, and it stated that " in preparing the financial state-
ment for the year, it was officially represented to me
that I must contemplate, in estimating the produce of the
income-tax, a diminution of rent not much less in
amount than 5,000,0001. sterling." But then he went on
to state, and this was a remarkable passage to which he
(Earl Fitz reilliam) was desirous of drawing their Lord-
ships' attention, that " practically speaking, in this coun-
try rent has become a return for the capital invested in
the improvement of land; that laws to secure a return
for such investment are not for a moment to be
tolerated " a most important admission—a most
remarkable expression from so high a quarter—" not
for a moment to be tolerated"—their Lordships would
observe that it was not a question of present policy, but
whether such laws ought to be "tolerated;" that "laws
to secure a return for such investment are not for a mo-
ment to be tolerated, but laws which, by imposing un-
equal taxes, discourage that investment, are, irrespective
of their injustice, highly impolitic; for nothing contri-
butes more to the enduring prosperity of a country than
the natural deposit of its surplus capital in the improve-
ment of its soil. Justice to the land, in all systems of
finance, is equally the interest of the proprietor and the
farmer, but it is also equally the interest of the commu-
nity." There could be no doubt that justice to every
class of society was the interest of the community.—
(Hear, hear.) But, passing on, he came to the •follow-
inte paragraph, which was one of very remarkable im-
port, and which he desired particularly to impress on
their Lordships' minds:—" Every principle of abstract
justice, and every consideration of high policy, counsel
that the producer should be treated as fairly as the co re-
sumer, and intimate that when the native producer is
thrown into unrestricted competition with external rivals
it is the duty of the Legislature;in every way to diminish,
certainly not to increase, the coat of production. It is
the intention cf her Majesty's Ministers"—let their
Lordships observe that—" it is the intention of her
Majesty's Ministers to recommend to Parliament, as
soon us it is in their power, measures which may effect
this end." He (Earl Fitz williem) trusted that it was
the intention of her Majesty's Ministers also to carefully
consider the means by which they proposed to accom-
plish that end.—(Cheers.) They were then told what
were the means for accomplishing it. "One of the
soundest means, among others, by which this result may
be accomplished, is a revision of our taxation." Now
here they had the general proposition laid down that
they were to have a total revision of taxation, and it
might be wise and desirable to do that, and 'the results
of such a revision might perhaps be perfect justice to
all. But he would take leave to say that any great
and extensive changes by which burdens which
had hitherto been imposed upon ono class of
the ccmmunity were transferred to another class of
the community ought not to be lightly undertaken, or
undertaken without a full and careful consideration
of all the consequences that might ensue from alopting
such a step. The document then went on to say—" The
times are favourable to such an undertaking; juster
notions of taxation are more prevalent than heretofore;
powerful agencies are stirring, which have introduced
new phenomena into finance, and altered the complexion
of the fiscal world, and the possibility of greatly relieving
the burdens of the community, both by adjustment and
reduction, seems to loom in the future." Undoubtedly,
if any means could be adopted by which a reduction of
taxation could be effected it would be exceedingly de-
sirable. But he (the Earl Fitz william) was not one
of those who were very sanguine with regard to the *pos-
sible results of any such measure, and he would now warn
his friends at Wellingborough, who had done him the
honour of intrusting him with their petition, not to be
too sanguine in their expectation of any benefit they
might desire from a general revision of taxation.—(Heat)
The Noble Earl then laid the petition on the table.
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the second re-
port from the Select Committee on the Parliament Office
and office of Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, was
considered and agreed to.
WEST INDIAN DISTRESS.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the
Judges of the Supreme Court of Judicature, the Vice-
Chancellor, the Master in Ordinary to the Court of
Chancery, the Chairman of Quarter Sessions, and other
leaders of the legal profession in the island of Jamaica,
representing the distress under which that island, in
common with the other West India islands, was now
labouring under. The petitioners spoke of the dirni.
nished value of property, and the consequent impove-
rished state of the proprietors. They state that although
the actual amount of crime had not increased, yet that
offences against the person, comprising fights and as-
saults, were greatly on the increase, as exhibited in the
returns of the criminal courts. _
.The petitioners be.
lieved that the state of things which they were suffer-
ing from was attributable to the Act of 1846, reducing
the differential duties on sugar, and expressed a hope
that their Lordships would adopt such steps as would al-
leviate their sufferings. He felt it to he his duty to read
the statement of the petitioners, and while he differed
from them in the economical view of the question, he
must agree with them that the effect_ of the Act of 1846
was to increase the slave trade in the Spanish colonies
and the Brazils. •
Earl GREY could not agree with the Noble and
Learned Lord that the Act of 1846 had the effect which
the petitioners attributed to it. On the contrary, he be-
lieved that it very materially, in conjunction with the
squadron on the African coast, diminished it. The
papers which had been laid on the table showed that
slavery during the last five years, as compared with the
five preceding years, had very much diminished; and at
that moment the parties in Cuba were so satisfied with
what they saw resulting from free labour, that they
were taking measures for, the introduction of 8,000
Chinese labourers.
The Bishop of OXFORD laboured under the inability
to maintain silence when he •heard the sentiments just
uttered by the Noble Earl. and those also given ex-
pression to by the Noble and Learned Lord (Brougham).
He could not allow the statement of the Noble Earl to
pass without protesting against it, believing, as ho did,
that the statement contained in the petition presented by
the Noble and Learned Lord, attributing their distress
to the Act of 1846, was correct. He believed that the

necessary aspect of that Act w:ss to give a great
stimulus to the increase of slcvery, the demoralization
of the people, and the promotion of the produce

of slave grown sugar in the Brazils. Slaves continmA
to be largely imported from Africa, showing clearly oue
of the bad effects of the Act of 1846. The Noble Earl

had told them, however, that the introduction of Chinese

about- into Cuba was attributable to the Act of 1846,
but he must protest against the arguments of the Noble
Earl, and against the cause of justice being defeated on
this great and most important question.
Lord BROUGHAM presented another petition to the
same effect, from the President and Associates of the
College of Surgeons in Jamaica.
Lord BROUGHAM, in presenting a petition from
the Board of Council, and Council of the Assembly of
Antigua, complaining of distress, said the inhabitants of
that island were deserving of the respectful attention of
their Lordships, seeing that they had the distinguished
honour of emancipating their slaves, without waiting for
the operation of the "apprenticeship" clause. The pe-
titioners prayed that the House would take into their
serious consideration what steps could be adopted for
the alleviation of the sufferings of the people of the
island, and would to Heaven that he could see any
chance of the Legislature of this country beingacbalreretdo
afford them effectual relief, for he entirely eu
that they were most deserving of it.
The Bishop of OXFORD presented a
frompetition on the
same subject, and with a similar prayer,
colo-
nists of British Guiana, in which the pet the
tioners de-
clared that the single Act of 1846 had not only ruined
them, but encouraged the slave trade.
The Earl of HARR P
° WBY
petition from
the colonists of the Mauritius,srtieen
showing
gltahat the impor-
tation of coolies had been accomplished to a considerable
extent, and at a vary considerable expense, arid praying
for the further introduction of free labour into the
colony. The Noble Earl also presented a memorial
from the island of St. K
of the evils arising to itt's'
West Indies, complaining
the
morals of the population from
recent legislation, and praying the House to adopt some
remedy to effect an improved state of the law
The Earl of DERBY begged to presenatll d m
a.
on the same subject from the clergy memorial
tions in the island of Jamaica. The petitioners of ebno°re ites-
timony not only to the distress from which the island
Wag fitiffering, but .to the negro population lapsing

1852

into a state of consequent immorality. The petition
was signed by 69 clergymen of the Church of England,
and 83 clergymen of other d. nemina.ions, including,
Westeyans, Baptists, independents, and Roman Catho•
lies, all concurring that the negro population were re-
, pidly lapsing into their former state of igooranee and
I vice, and that the evil was attributable to the Act of
1846. The petitioners hoped that their Lordships would
apply some remedy to relieve them from the injurious
operations of the Differential Duties Act. The effect
of that Act, the petitioners submitted, exposed them to
a most unequal competition. There was no question
but sugar could be produced more easily and less ex-
pensively by slave than free labour, and it certainly
seemed advisable that their Lordships should take the
case of the petitioners into consideration, with a view
of adopting some course that would place the West
Indies in a better position than they were at present.
He confessed he entertained the most serious apprehen-
sions, in consequence of the distress from which the co-
lonists were suffering, and the consequent demoraliza-
tion of the negro population.
Earl GREY—The Noble Earl had said that the de-
moralization of the negro population was to be attri-
buted to the Act of 1846. Their Lordships would allow
hire to make a few observations in reply to the Noble
Earl. There had been papers laid on the table of tht ir
Lordships' House in abundance, which showed that the
Act of 1846 had not been the cause of the result attri-
buted to it. He had the testimony of officers in the
highest position in the West Indies to that effect, and
that all the evils now stated were in full operation before
the measure came into operation, the falling back of the
negroes from a state of civilization included. The
country was .so favourable in its production, that the
negroes finding that they coul3, on the produce of two
days, live the rest of the week without working, became
idle; and as a remedy to obviate that evil, it was con •
Mend that to lower the price of sugar would have the
effect of lowering wages, and cause the negro to labour
more for his subsistence. The anticipations thus formed
had been realised, and it was now found that in every
one of the colonies the negroes laboured more, and that
the produce of 1851 exceeded that of 1850 in every one
of the colonies. Now that was the way in which the an-
ticipations of the Act of 1846 had been realised. He
asserted on a former occasion what he advanced now—
that the evils complained of had not been increased by
the Act of 1846,
The Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND was understood
to say that since he had come into office the Admiral in
command on the West India station had reported to him
that all the evils complained of were attributable to tho
Act of 1846.

The Bishop of OXFORD was sensible of the diffi-
culty of discussing a measure like this incidentally. The
Noble Earl's argument was, that the real distress in the
West India colonies was not attributable to the Act of
1846; and the Noble Earl then went on to say that the
negroes, in the first instance, were overpaid, and did
not care to labour more than two days in the week, and
that therefore a reduction was thought desirable, as a
means to cause them to labour more. Now, that was the
argument of the Noble Earl; but in his (the Bishop of
Oxford's) opinion, the Noble Earl's argument was no
answer to the evils complained of. They gave their de-
liberate opinion that as they saw things under their own
eyes, :the Act of 1846, instead of producing the
desired effect, had led almost to the lapse of this whole
people iato barbarism. There was a universal belief
that it was impossible to compete with free labour.
There was also an impression amongst capitalists
throughout Europe that they could not offer any satis-
factory security for the investment of capital. There-
fore they could obtain no advances for the improvement
of their manufacture, or their estates and machinery.
Capitalists did not hesitate to make large investments
in Cuba and Brazilian estates, which benefited in conse-
quence, while Jamaica was euffering from the want of
them. He felt the difficulty of dealing with this subject.
It seemed to him that what they were doing with one
hand, they were undoing with the other. While they
were preventing the slave trade in Africa, and the intro-
duction of slaves into our colonies on the one hand, they
were on the other stimulating the production of slave-
grown sugar in the Brazils and Cuba.
Earl GREY denied that there was any want of em-
ployment in Jamaica from a decrease in the manufacture
of sugar. The quantity of sugar produced in the colony
bad increased, and was increasing. But wages, he ad-
mitted, had fallen some 15 or 20 per cent. His argu-
ment was, that their security was so bad that they could
not got capital for improvements. However, notwith-
standing the indisposition of the planters to adept them-
selves to the existing state of things, and the dependence
upon the supposition of a return to protection, there had
ceen more improvements in the colony during the last
five or six years than during the preceding twenty or
thirty yearn.
The Earl of HARROWBY read a paper, showing
the increase in the production of sugar in the Brazils
and in Cuba. During the last ten years it had increased
in the Brazils from 82,000 tons to 235,000 tons, and in
Cuba, from 63,000 to 111,000 tons. Upon the average
of years it appeared that, with some few exceptions,
there had been a gradual decrease in the produetion of
sugar in Jamaica. They had also exported machinery
to the Havannah and Cuba, which would not have been
done if they could have obtained a profitable return from
their estates.
Lord STANLEY (of AleTerley), who was nearly in-
audible, was understood to say, that since emancipation
the cultivation of sugar had increased in Europe, and
that had tended to decrease the price of sugar in the
market. He thought more was made of the effect of
the Act of 1846 than was justly deducible from its
opera'ion.

The conversation then dropped, and their Lordships
adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 10.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
NAVAL RESERVE.
Sir F. BARING said he wished to know what was
to be done witn the sum which had been voted in the
estimates for the naval reserve. He understood that
the Admiralty had considered their plan, and had relin-
quished ell idea of carrying it out. Did they intend to
apply ti 40,0001. which had been voted for this par-
pose to keeping up a force larger than that for which
they had taken a vote? If he were rightly informed he
believed that they would find, if tha Admiralty went on
in the system they were now pursuing, that the esti-
mates which they had taken would not cover their ex-
penses. There were rumours afloat that there was no sur-
plus at all, and he should be glad to know if there was
any foundation for it.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed
with the opinion that had been expressed respecting the
Accountant-General. There was no foundation in the
report that the rate of expenditure exceeded the Pali-
mate.—(Hear.) He would not enter into any discussion
respecting the navy reserves, but the House might rest
satisfied that the Admiralty expenditure would not ex-
ceed the amount justified by the estimate which had
been voted by the Bosses—([fear, hear.) A great de-
mand had been made upon the Admiralty in consequence
of the gold discoveries, but no increase would be made
in the number of men, should such an increase ulti-
mately become necessary, until the matters requiring it
had been fully explained to Parliament.—(Hear.)
Sir F. BARING wished to know if the rate et expen-
diture had exceeded that of last year?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
he had already stated that it had not.—(llear, hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS was glad to hear that. Ho was
quite ready to vote money to make the navy efficient,
provided the money was properly applied.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House
went into Committee on the question that 4,4691. be
voted for the miscellaneous allowances on the civil list.
Mr. ANSTEY objected to several items comprised in
the estimate, and moved that the vote be reduced to
2,669/. The items which ho principally objected to were
700/. for poor French refugee clergy, 3001. for poor
French refugee laity,ll7s/. for charitable and other allow-
ances-formerly paid from the civil list, and 400/. for the
College of St. David's, Lampeter, in aid of the expendi-
ture of the college. His objection to the grant of 400/.
to St. David's College was founded on his con-
viction that the students at that college received no
efficient instruction in the Welsh language. It was also
a sectarian establishment, and for that reason ought not
to be supported by the public money. He considered
that, under the present circumstances of the college,
the coming forward to ask for this grant must be con-
sidered fraudulent.
Mr. HAMILTON would offer a few explanations on
the subjects to which the Hon. Member had referred,
though, if ho had consulted the report of the Select
Committee on that subject, he would have obtained the
information he seemed to require. With regard to the
vote for the French refugees, it might be referred back as
far as the time of the revocation of the edict of Nantes,
and in his opinion to evoke that grant now would be an
act of great hardship and injustice. In respect of the
grant of 89/. 9s. to the Bishop of Sodor and Man, it
was also a very ancient one, having been made so for
back as the year 1766. The subject of the vote to St.
David's College had been already so fully discussed that
it was unnecessary for him to enter into the question,
but he must say, that he did not consider that the Hon.
Member had shown sufficient reason for discontinuing
this grant.
Mr. BOOKER considered the charges made by the
Hon. Member for Youghal entirely untenable. This
opinion was formed upon personal knowledge of the
subject. With regard to the allegations of the Hon.
Member, that the returns of the college had been frau-
dulent, he would read a letter from the vice-principal of
the college: (The Hon. Member then read a letter, with
the view of showing that there had never been
even a momentary concealment.) Interested as
he was in the subject, he should not lave
considered himself to be doing his duty if he had silently
listened to the allegations so recklessly made.
Sir BENJAMIN HALL considered that the allege-
lions of the Honourable Member for Youghal were
managers
in the main correct. He would defy
had been gross mismanagement
of the college to produce the returns aekethdefe
proving that there
d that the
considered in the affairs of the college. r without
letter read by his lion. Friend
notion that fraudulent returns had
the exercises in the
on ono occasion been showfnthte
thoaftstt.heuyavwide,er.o
arßdaethheecreoecamrraideed. olutt
had
sent
students, candidates for
Welsh language of some
boradckinaastiosnp,cchimadenbseeton
perfect knowledge of the
Wpracticel parpoees a
necessary. The Roma% Catholics
had established a Jesuit college, froth
the
ee illiterateo
principal
unless he be so conversan't withte
which they go forth to
Permit a single man to '
fn eNhohr North languagetVwalieils elawlea
preach
as to be a useful instructor of the pevie
janguagtEehem:rheNpeemeoauyldbenoP'thredo.neile the lion. Baronet's
among whom
place with his actions in other parts of
itl:::igZlitriyn.thiHs e was convinced that any imformation
upon the expenditure of the college could easily be
obtained.

Mr. BOOKER c'nnsidered that the Welsh -education
in the coil; ;:;e W perft.ctly efficient.
After a iew words from Mr. LOVEDEN and Mr. AN-
STET,

Mr. J. WILLIAMS said—As a native of the country,
he could not record a silent vote. Ile felt deeply for the
education in that college, and in a fechag of interest in
that colh ge he wculd yield to no Member of that House,
but he considered that an account ought to be demanded
of the expendhure of the funds of the college.
Mr. HUME thought that if the Government were to
turn their attention to the subject, they would find great
abuses existing which it was their duty to remedy.
The ammittee then divided, when there appeared--
For the amendment ... ▪ 26
Against it ... •
113 '
Majority... —B7
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 1,6914 for the Foundling Hospital was then
agreed to. _

A vote of 9.783/. for the House of Industry, Dublin,
was agreed to after some discussion.
The CHAIRMAN then rcportcd progress, and the House
resumed.

In ankwer to a question from Mr. KEOGH,.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCLIEqUER, said Le
did not iotend to proceed with the Crime and Outrage
Bill after taic;ve o'clock to-night.
The House then adjourned until Six o'clock.

The House resumed at Six o'cl(ck.
MESSAG;L; FROM THE LORDS.
A messenger from the Loris brought up the follow°
ing Bills, to which their Lordships bad agreed:—
Registraeiou of Births, Deaths, and Ale.rr.aoes.
South aisex Estuary and Reclamation.
Laacaster Water woeks, Cemetery, and Gas, without
amendment.
Londonderry Bridge (No. 2).
&stern Counties Railway (Power to use the East
Anglian Railways, &c.), with an amendment.
Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway.
London and North-Western Railway (No. 2).
Londonderry Bridge (No. 1).
Tyne Improvement, with amendments.
THE REV. MR. BENNETT.
Sir W. P. WOOD intimated that he had received 11
communication from the Bishop of London, stating in
reply to certain remarks which he (Sir W. P. Wood)
made in the recent debate on the institution
of Mr. Bennett to the living of Frome, that
the memorandum disapproving of the Rev. Gentleman's
conduct was not contained in a private letter accomps"
nying the certificate, but was added by him (the Bishop)
to the bottom of the certificate itself.
KAFIR WAR.—WITHDRAWAL OF EXTRA,
VOTE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
in consequence of the expense of the Kafir war
having been much less than he anticipated, and in
consequence of the Treasury minute that no ex-
penditure should take place for extraordinary
military establishments until the resources for ordinary
military expenditure were exhausted, he had thesatisfao-
lion to inform the House that he did not feel it
necessary to call for the vote of 200,0001., which be
thought it his duty to place before the House when be
made his financial statement.—(Hear, hear.)
MR. F. O'CONNOR.
Mr. J. BELL said he thought proper. to inform the
House that he had placed in the hands of the Sergeant-
at-Arms two certificates which confirmed the opi•
nion he (Mr. J. Bell) had expressed yesterday, that
the Honourable Member who was in his custody
required medical advice. He thought it his dull
to take this step, for he believed the Honourable
Member was in an unsound state of mind, and that.
it was only proper the House should be in possession of
facts on medical authority, more particularly as the
medical and legal professions were at issue as 10
the precise line of demarcation between sound'
ness and unsoundness of mind. It therefore became
an important question where the line was to In
drawn. He made this statement not as q : friend 0.1
the Hon. Member—indeed he had been informed he
had no friends—but because he considered it was de-
sirable the facts should be known, in order that justice
might be done.
No observation was made in reply to the Hon. Mem-
ber by the Govo*nroont.
DUTY ON CARRIAGES.
On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Sir DE LACY EVANS moved that the House do
resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, with
a view to the modificatiation of the carriage duties. fie
believed the effect of that would be to increase the re-
venue.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
he question hsd been brought before the House that
morning. He begged to say that he would take the
matter into his consideration, with a view to what be
believed to be the interests of all parties ; but during
the present session it would be impossible to consider
the question.
Mr. AGLIONBY supported the vote, and the House
then divided, when there appeared--
For the motion... ... ... 17
AVtill3t it ••• ••• ••• ••• 57
Majority against the motion —4O
bUPPLY.,
'1 he house then went into a Committee of Supply.
6001. for the Fe mile Hospital, Dublin, and 600/. for the
Female Orphan Hodge, Dahlia, were agreed to.
1,5001. for the Westmoreland Lock Hospital.
1,0501. for Stephen's Hospital, Dublin.
2,660/. for the Fever Hospital, Cork-street, Dublin.
3501. for the Hospital for Incurables.
33,5601. for Nun-contorming, Seceding, and Protes-
tant Ministers.
Mr. ANSTEY said he now wished to call the atten-
tion of the Committee to the no, orious vote called the
I?egiztm &num, upon the subject of which be complained
Lieu no information had been given. He believed that
the great bulk of the Dissenting ministers of Ireland did
not themselves require this grant, and that the Presby-
terian congregations had petitioned that House against
its entinti'neO• Ho believed the object of the Maanooth
grant,
e prthenteofitiiuonn of religion, Regius: d o nruem,
ioann,d other similar grants, was
b
curing the got d opinion of the lower fweorr theclas purposeses.Th of so
-
curing
byteriens rejected the grant with scorn; the existence of
it was a source of discord and suspicion among them.
was believed that the most worthy objects werenot
selected, and that their orthodoxy (in the Scoto-Calvle
tic sense) was not consulted. They represented that the
grant, therefore, was made use of to pervert members of
their body from the original profession of Geneva. Hew,'
ever, ho considered that all endowments or grants, casual
is.
I
or permanent, for religious purposes, should cease. He
therefore should move the rejection of the vote, and
divide against it.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said the Hon. Member could
know little of the Presbyterian body if he supposed they
could be bribed by such a vote.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ANSTEY—I never said so.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said he had so understood the
Hon. Member, and begged to deny it. The fact was,
that at the time of James 1., when a body of Presby-
terians came from Scotland, it was stiputated that there
should be a public grant for their ministers. This
arrangement had repeatedly been recognised by Parlia-
ment, and he was persuaded it would not be disturbed.
—(Hear, hear.) It was not true that there had been
any application from the Presbyterians of Ireland to dis-
continue the grant; and Parliament would hardly with-
draw from them so long-continued an assistance.
Captain JONES asserted that the Hon. Member for
Youghat had made a most unfounded statement in re-
presenting that the Presbyterians required their loyalty
to be secured by bribes.—(Hear, hear.) The efforts of
their ministers were most assiduous to maintain order
and peace.—(Hear, hear.) Let the Presbyteroniasauntiohdcuoogliounhnoto-
ties be compered with others as to the state of crime, or
the cost of constabulary.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said the objection to the vote involved no
(TLhaeugohb
jteecr.t)ionlttowaits theo vote had been begun in
imputation upon the character of the Presbyterians, for
was
all men would take public money if they could get it
nnEe.pogiapnrdit;clpWlea.B
it
right
that
the
Dissentersw e r so pbtlipaid
days of James, but times had much altered since then.
bw )hdeyn
noneof by
his own doctor.—(A laugb.) Government in Ireland,
Protestants should have religious
n pey for his own parson,
Tfhe .Fgrre.asnbtys,t
Presbyterians
ah°
had not? Let every me as for
to pay their own clergy, as other religious classes
should. No less than 520 clergymen were paid out of
this vote—a paltry pittance for each—which it was dis-
creditable that so rich a body should allow their clergy
to receive.
. Mr. STANFORD said ho thought the Hon. Member
had spoken a great deal of common sense. But he con-
fessed that he often found himself placed in a very em-
barrassing position with respect to votes in Committee
of Supply, by reason of the anomalies comprised in the
British C "fonstau tt"
on.—(llear, hear.) He was in favour
of an Established Church, but it was hardly consistent
to support it, and at the same time to support votes for
the maintenance of other religious communities. Resew
no good reason for the vote, and if it were carried to a
division, he must vote against it. It was most monstroaS
to call upon Members to uphold an Established Church,
and also to vote public money to keep tip religious sects
opposed to it.—(Near.) It was time that some consis-
tent and sensible course should be taken upon the sub-
ject; and ho should pursue such a course in the present
instance.
Mr. FOX considered no sound reason ha'l been given
for the grant. It had risen from 8,0001. to 38,0001.
And so much was it viewed with aversion in the Pres-
byterian body, that ministers sometimes had been come'
pelled to relinquish it or resign their posts. One objece
Lion to the grant was that it was distributed in proportion
to the number of congregations, which, of course, was la
great inducement to constant division of congregations.
The grant also tended to depress the proper zeal of the
who
Presbyterians in supporting their rea t•gion. t o h se
are 1 ths grant hal scruples in receiving it; and
one who was t98,;(1 with inconsistency dpon his own
principles, said his CO lseienee went against it as a
minister of religion, but he considered that he received
it as a polilLian.—(A laugh.)
opinion, W. PROSSER said ail these grants were, in his
injurious to the religious denominations ens,
owed and to the religious character of the State; for
the State to endow half a dozen religions wag really al-
most tantamount to practical infidelity.—(Hear, hear.)
There were great anomalies on the subject, and no clear
principle established. In England a religion was estab-
lished which was considered true, and was also the reli-
gion of the majority. In Scotland a religion was estab-
lished altogether different, and in Ireland one which
Was only the religion of the minority. No principle was
followed, therefore; neither the truth of a religion nor
its being that of the majority.—(Hear.) The state
.1
of
win •
the Irish Church being so anomalous, he could not
it existed hastily alter the position of other religl3att
communities.—(Hear.) The whole questionrecteire
investigation and adjustment upon sound and statesman
like principles.
AI:la Tot,
AIL WILLIAM opposed $l4O Er4ai, a pimm