The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 17.

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
MANCHESTER AND SALFORD EDUCATION

BILL.
Mr. BROTHERTON, on moving the second reading
of this Bill, said as he was anxious that all persons
should be fairly heard, he did not object to the petitions
which had been presented; but he reminded the House
that they ought to have been submitted to the Private
Bill-office.—(Hear.) He would not delay the House by
expatiating on the importance of education, for it was
admitted on all hands that it was necessary to extend
education in the country, but he would frankly state
the origin of the Bill and the circumstances in which it
was placed. There were three parties in the towns of
Manchester and Salford aoxious to promote the cause of
education; and they d.ffered as to the best means of
accomplishing that object—one party being for
religious education, another for secular educa-
tion, and a third for voluntary education. The
Bill was supported by a very large number of rate-
payers. No less than 40,000 rate-payers in the
two townships had signed petitions in favour
of the measure. The Town Council of Man-
chester had, however, thrown out the Bill by a ma-
jority of 32 to 22, but the Tow❑ Council of Salford had
approved of it by a majority of 17 to 14. The majority
of 17 paid 9,2432 in local rates, and the mi-
nority only 1,8261., showing clearly that the
feeling of the rate-payers was in favour of
taxing themselves for the purposes of education. It had
been objected that this was more of a public than a pri-
vate Bill, but the promoters had despaired of seeing a
general measure passed applicable to the whole king-
dom, and the necessity for education in Manchester and
Salford was so great that they deemed it advisable to
propose a scheme of their own, which would not only
not infringe upon the consciences of any, but be gene-
rally acceptable to the ratepayers. If the House agreed
to the second reading, the Bill might be referred to a
Select Committee, or, when the report was brought up,
it might be submitted to a Committee of the
whole House, and then treated in all respects as a
public Bill.—(Hear.) He considered that the towns of
Manchester and Salford bad done themselves immortal
honour in setting so noble an example to the kingdom,
and of showing that they sincerely desired to promote
education.—(Cheers.) All they wished was a system of
education suitable for the working classes, supported
by local rates, and under local management. The
amount of remuneration to be given under the Bill de-
pended entirely upon the number of scholars, the prin-
ciple being to pay in proportion to the work done. The
Hon. Member concluded by moving the second reading
of the Bill.

Mr. M. GIBSON said he intended to take a rather
unusual but not an irregular course with regard to the
Bill. He meant to move an amendment, to leave out
all the words after the word " that," for the purpose of
adding a resolution, to this effect—" That a Select Com-
mittee be appointed to inquire into the state of education
in the municipal boroughs of Manchester and Salford,
and adjoining townships, and to ascertain whether it is
advisable to make any further proposition, and in what
manner, for the education of the inhabitants
within such boroughs and townships, by means
of local rates to be raised within the same."
He made this amendment, because the measure, as a
private Bill, was extraordinary. It was, no doubt, tech-
nically within the rules of the House. It possessed
one peculiar distinctive character of a private Bill
—eat., that it was limited in application to par-
ticular parties and to a particular locality
—and persons who wished to legislate in that
way might, undoubtedly, proceed with such a Bill as a
private Bill. But ha hoped to have the Speaker's ap-
proval of a different view of the question. It had been
the object of the House, for some time past, to
limit the number of objects for which special
applications were made for private Bills ; and
it had passed general and comprehensive laws
of which particular localities could avail themselves by
complying with the conditions which they set out. Now,
if education was made one of the objects for which spe-
cial applickions were to be made, such a course would
not be consistent with the past proceedings of the
House.—(Hear.) If every town in England applied
for its own particular Education Bill, there would con-
stantly he revived religious subjects which would lead to
prolonged discussions in the House. The reasonable way
to deal with the question of education was for Parlia-
ment to decide ou the general principles of a measure ap-
plicable to the whole community, and then to allow
particular localities to avail themselves of that measure
if they complied with is conditions. So great a change
in the public policy as that of sanedoning the formation
of free schools for secular education, supported by local
rates, without a preliminary Parliamentary inquiry,
was never attempted before, and he asked
the House not to accede to so novel a principle
until such an inquiey had been instituted.
This was a measure involving far more than the ques-
tion of levying local rates for the purpose of education;
it involved the great principle of how children should
be educated, whether in the Catholic or Protestant reli-
gion, and upon that point neither the corporation of
Salford or Manchester had yet pronounced on opinion.—
(Haar, hear.) There was one iniuential body in Man-
chester for whom this Bill made no provision whatever,
except it was that they would have to con-
tribute to the rates—(A laugh)—while, in reference
to the Roman Catholics, they could only avail themselves
of the provisions of the Bill by allowing the authorised
version of the Scriptures to be used in their schools.—
(Hear, hear.) It was not necessary for him to go through
all the provisions of the Bill, because that was a subject
which ought to be left to the consideration of the Coin-
mittee.—(flear, hear.) He admitted that the pro-
moters of this measure were deserving of great
credit for the trouble and expense which they
had brought to the service of this momentous
*Digestion, and he should be sorry if their efforts ulti-
mately produced no legislative results, but many
disagreeable consequences would be spared to them if
the Home would only adopt the course which ho re-
commeseded.—(Hear, hear.) 1., was from no hostility to
a plan of supporting education out of local rates that
he moved this amendment, it was not in the spirit of op-
posing rating for education that he now pro-
posed this course, but in the present state of
public affairs it was hopeless to think the promoters
could succeed in carrying their Bill this session.—
(Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, with the view of en-
abling them :e husband their funds to be used iu the
future that he proposed this second course of disposing
of the question now.—(clear, hear.) Let not
the House be led away by the petitions
which had been presented en the subject of this
Bill, because many parties had signed those petitions
under the erroneous impression that they were signing
petitions in favour of national education.—(Hear, hear.)
The majority of the people were. anxious tor a Parlia-
mentary inquiry on the subject-of this Bill—nothing
more; and he hoped the House would not sanction the
principle which the Bill contained, but agree at once to
the plan which he had suggested.
Mr. ROEBUCK seconded the amendment, but he
did so upon a much narrower ground than that which
had induced his Right Hon. Friend to propose it. He
objected to the Bill befog considered in the light of a
private Bill; it was far too extensive to be placed in that
category; but if technically it wae a private Bill,
he
should be glad to hear some one draw
the line where a Bill ceased io partake of a private cha-
racter.—(Bear, hear.) This he contended was no private
Bill at all, and therefore he insisted that it ought to be
stopped limine.—(l..kar, hear.) Great public prin-
ciples were involved in this Bill; it involved private
interest, but actually embracedthe ' no
andrl great, wide question
of national educeuee religious prejudice,
at a loss to understand how' the andbewas
mearvernment could allow
it to go on 53 a Private Bin._
Mr. WALPOLE wished hear.)
stateto the individual
opinion which he entertained upon the subject of the
Bill,
and the course which he desired the House to
take.—( Hear, hear) Ittch credit was due to
the promoters of tll Bill, not only for endeavouring
to secure education for the people or' Man-
chester, but for founding their scheme, not upon
but a religious basis.
not be read a
a secular, (Behr, hear.) He
thought, however, that the Bill could
second time, though with some slight anediamanas he
could see no objection to the adoption of the amendment.
—(Hear, hear.) Ho did not egrev with those who
declared that this was not a Private Bill,
for, accerding to the delinition of the stand.
ing criers, this was essentially . a private Bin.
--(Hear, hear.) But he did tot hbrot to. the
Bill
upon the ground of its not heir a strehli private Bill,
easy(' to deal with a
but because it proposed ia a 7/rtv ate •
great public question, and ii it were allowed to pass ft
might be made a dengereus precedeno—(Hear, bear.)
There were four great principles involved in this Bill: the
first would be fouod in the 64th clause, which propoied
to levy a rate, tee second, in clauses 29 and 31, which
would make al! schools free, and specified the system of
education to be adopted, the third, in clause 69, which
gave the rate-payers power to appropriate the rate to the
schools, but not to dispose of the surplus if there
should happen to be any, while, in clauses /75,
76, and 85, provision wee made that the
authorised version of the Scriptures only should be
used in these schools-see( He er, hear.) o Now, these were
four great. principles, and before the House, could be
called upon to affirm ;them, they ought to be, well dis-
cussed and considered intsConstnitteeaset(Hear, hear.)
For t, instance, he doubted the • expedieucy
removing the. responsibility . from a parent of
providing for the education - of his child,
while with regard to the provision making the
schools free, he put it to the House whether that was a.
principle which it ought to es rent. to without a great
public discussion.—(llear, hear.) The cher two prin-
ciPiesof they were adopted, would iWroduce all the
grievances of the church-rate wi,beut the necessity for
it. At present caureb-retes pressed heavily upon
some ela3aes, and the third piiet4le would only tend
to increase the evil.--(llear, hear.) With regard so
the lass principle of this Bill, he wae firmly convinced
that ably Wtb:s.tion, to be eatabitshed by 13,V should be
based upon religion, end se tar therefore he was fa-
vourable to the last principle, but seeing that
none of ~hoe principles ouglit to be adopted without
previous discussion, he felt that !ho best course to be
adopted was to refer out the Bill, hut the whole question,
to the consideration of the Select Committer'.—(clear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought this course was the
best th,3 ilouee could adopt_
(Heat', hear.) He did
not agr, a with' all that the last bipeier had said, but
uch of it, and he concurred with him
he did agree With In
malt() this a public rather
that it .woulC),*•.hetkr
than a priyate question.—( far, hear.) It was, of the
letmeet importance that questions educative should be
restricted to public and not suffered ° a
lobo embraced brtho ,eirced,in.
Private Bills.—(11-ear, hear.) Luelteette
cumstaticeaeof the case, however, he thought this Bill
might lii+V been, tiead a second tine and
-
referred to a
Select Committee, provided it was afterwards to 'be
!Moldered in a Committee of the whole Rowe,
but

as the matter now stood ho felt that the better course
was to pass the amendment.—(Hear, hear.) Had this
been simply a question of whether the Bill should pus
or not, he certainly should have voted for the se-
cond reading, but those who resisted the measure
did not desire to carry their opp2tition
to the extent of negativing the principle of the Bill, but
they simply wished that the Bill should be framed upon
a more extended basis, and to that suggestion he could
not have the slightest objection.—(Hear, hear.) H. e
agreed with the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite
that some of the principles of
.the Bill, if
adopted, would seriously interfere with many of
our schools that were now maintained
upon the voluntary
principle, but some proviso might be introduced into the
Bill which should meet that case.—(Hear, hear.) With
regard to the last principle of the Bill, he felt the diffi-
culty of deciding upon soma religious system of educa-
tion in which all parties could agree, but he thought
it might be provided that the children of Roman
Catholics should be exempted from attendiag the religious
department of the schools. It would be unjust to the
Catholic and to the Jew to compel them to contribute
towards the support of a school which imposed such
ditties upon their children as they could not con-
scientiously perform, and he saw no differ-
ence between forcing a Roman Catholic to read
the Old Testament or forcing a Jew to confine
himself to the New.—(Hear, hear.) But these were
points of detail which must be loft for the consideration
of the Select Committee. And again thanking those
who had brought this Bill forward, he concluded by re-
commending the House to agree to the amendment
without any modification whatever.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CARDWELL rose to answer the appeal which
had been made to him by the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite. Though he had not been intrusted with the
conduct of this Bill, he still had taken great interest in it.
If the promoters of the Bill reaped no further reward for
their laborious exertions than the present discussion, their
meritorious exertions would have been fully rewarded.
They were much indebted to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary of State for the Home Department,
and the Noble Lord the late Prime Minister, for the
light which they had thrown on this subject. They were
all agreed that the Bill should be referred to a Select
Committee, and that the subject should have a full and
fair inquiry. Ihe Bill in the mean time was to rest at
its present stage; and he was quite prepared to say that
the House was in a position at present to agree to the
principle of the Bill ; and the promoters of it were not
at all likely to seek to attain from the course which it was
now proposed to take any surreptitious acknowledgment
of that nature. The fullest justice had been done to the
Bill, and to the merits of the people of M ?Manchester in
seeking to obtain for themselves some settled and effica-
cious scheme of education. There ought,- therefore, to
be no heartburnings on the subject, and he hoped that
all would unite in agreeing in the expediency of the
course now pursued.
Mr. W. PATTEN thought it would be a wise course
for the promoters of this Bill to accede to the proposi-
tion which had been made to them; but at the same
time he must say that the efforts of the promoters of
the Bill were certainly not in such a good train for
obtaining the desired result now as they had before been.
The promoters of the Bill had not the slightest objection
to a full and fair inquiry, but he thought that some pro-
vision ought to be taken that the opponents, as well as
the promoters of the Bill, should not be put to any ex-
pense in appearing before a Committee.
Mr. BROTHERTON had great pleasure in acceding
to the proposition which had been made, and he would
ask that the second reading of the Bill be deferred until
this day six months.
Sir R. H. INGLIS said that the doctrine which he
held was that the education of the country was vested in
the Church established by the State, and nothing he
had heard had induced him to depart from that
opinion. The Noble Lord the late Prime Minister had
laid it down as his opinion that all education ought to be
religious, and be (Sir R. Inglis) thought that if the
country were to. be taxed for the purpose of affording
religious education to the people, it ought to be an edu-
cation in accordance with the religion established and
recognised by the State.
Mr. FOX agreed that if money was to be raised by
taxation for the purpose of inculcating religious educa-
tion it ought to be in accordance with the religion of
the Church, but that was not the principle of the Bill. i
He agreed that an inquiry
so general and universal as
it was proposed to be would be of no use. With regard
to the Bill itself ho regretted that it did not appear to
provide any improvement in the quality of education as
well as the quantity. It was well known that the great
mass of schools in their particular locality were any-
thing but a desirable condition and wore not able to
afford an education up to the wants of the community.
Col. THOMPSON thought that the great object was
to got over the religious antipathies of the different
classes of the community to contributing any money to
the religious education of those opposed to them.
Mr. SLANEY hoped that one part of their labours
would be to inquire into the propriety of exempting
those persons from taxation who entertained religious
scruples on the subject, and who could show that they
contributed to the education of their own religious de-
nomination.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the second
reading of the Bill postponed until that day month.
The motion for the appointment of a Select Com-
mittee to inquire into the condition of education in
Manchester and Salford, and to report on the best
means fur improving the same, was then agreed to.
PHARMACY BILL.
Mr. ELLIS presented seven petitions in favour of this
Bill.

Lieutenant-Colonel BOYLE presented a petition from
Frome to a similar effect.
Mr. J. BELL, in moving the second reading of the
Bill, presented a petition from the President and Coun-
cil of the Royal College of Surgeons in favour of it;
also a petition to the same effect from the principal me-
dical men of the metropolis. This last petition in parti-
cular, he thought, would remove the objection which
had been raised by the Hon. Member for Montrose, and
other Honourable Members, that there was no ne-
cessity for the Bill. Formerly the compounding of
physician's prescriptions had been performed by
apothecaries; but when that body had been transformed
into medical men, that duty had been taken up by the
chemists. Several efforts had been made to amalgamate
this body with some established body, but it was found im-
possible, and ultimately they were formed by royal charter
into the Pharmaceutical Society. This society, however,
had at present no powers to prevent persons assuming the
name and functions of chemists without possessing the
abilities and education requisite for such an important
duty. It was proposed by this Bill to render it unlaw-
ful for any person for the future to assume the profession
of a pharmaceutical chemist without having gone
through a certain examination, and received a certificate
of fitness. It was not, however, proposed to interfere
with the vested interests of any persons, and there was
a clause in it exempting all persons who had already
embarked in the business. It was not his intention
either to interfere with the medical profession,
and there was another clause which exempted
that body from the operation of the Bill.— (Hear.)
The Bill was confiued entirely to chemists and drug-
gists, who were the persons who dispensed medical pre-
scriptions without belonging to the medical profession,
or acting under the authority of any recognised body.
The penal clauses of the Bill were not of a stringent
nature, in fact the', were mild prohibitions against
any person aseuntiug the name of a pharma-
ceuticel chemist without proper authority, and
the 13i11 itself was a guarantee to the public that
all persons belonging to the body were properly quali-
fied to discharge their duties. Ho was aware that ob-
jections would be offered to the Bill, the first of which
was that it would raise an obstruction to medical reform.
Now, the distinguishing feature of the measure was that
it had no relation whatever to the medical body,
and that while dealing only with chemists
and druggists, it left the medical body entirely
at ltberty to make what regulations they
pleased to meet the alterations _which would be made.
The second objection was, that too much power was left
in the hands of the Pharmaceutical Society, and it was
said, that the Secretary of State ought to have a super-
vision over all the bye-laws of the society, and that none
should become valid without his sanction. Tne Bill
which he had introduced last session had contained such a
provision; but the then Secretary of State showed such a
disinclination to go into the ma.ter, owing probably to the
experience which he had had of the difficulty of dealing
with medical matters, that he had thought it better not
to fetter the Bill with such a clause, and in its place had
inserted a provision that no by-law should become valid
without the sanction of a special meeting of the Pharma-
ceutic:el Society. Again, it was urged by the medical
mbediee of Scotland that as their diplomas included phar-
acy their lieeutiates ought to be placed on the same
with those who had passed an examination of the
Phartn_ace eutical
had et Intention of
Board in this. country., Now, he
their bodies preventing the licentiatesfrf
It was
objected om acting as pharmaceutical chemists.
that the definition_ pharmaceutical
wouid
boats, but thataredxeleueap
belonging to medical or surgical
master and w
rted by the
lions had been introduced by the
of the society of chemists, and
suppo
His conviction Was, prtohvaincial medical association.
traeikf
e, the Bill passed, in
fete years it would
phamazeutica. great improvements
in the body
01,11401,chemists;ltvioel( be the
notwith-
the prohibitory
standiug
person who wished to becomethechmeaas
of inducing every
proper
.scieetifio aTheemeist
would protect the übr x-
to pass through a education.
aminltion required
and incompetence, and would tla lc against
ignorance t an education
, hicht by means of
turntsh persons
the groundwork o
nrc-se
perseverance and the tx . I ot theirelent and genius,
would make them useful tothe_ public and creditable
to the country. fie therefore hoped no objection would
by offered to the second reading.
Mr. WALPOLE considered before the uouse
gave
its azsent to the pi incipleof of the Bill they ought to
the Pharmaceutical (now
nne
eo hing more of the coestitutio
Li
Society which was invested with such great
,elect powers. Co-
m sug-
gest( that the Bill should be referred to b a
tnittee, and in the event of such a Committee being up.
witittd, he would suggest the propri:ey of some altera-
due in the second claute, which gave powers to the
society for'the formation of bye-laws and regulations
Which he thought ought not t.i bo given unless the
society was placed under 8J13103 supervision and control.
[Jo also thought that great difficulties would arise under
the 15th clause, which subjected persons to penalties if
they used the name of pharmaceutical chemist withuut
being properly registered.
Mr. BOUVERIE objected to the Bill because it would
give a monopoly to a chartered company of which they
knew nothing. The real object ot it was to turn chemists
and druggists into apothecaries.
and to enable the body
of pharmaceutical chemists to obtain a larger revenue
than they now derived.
Mr. BELL intimated that he would accede to the
suggestion of the Secretary of State for the Hume De-
-0111E144e°.
partment for sendingspie Bill to a el Committee.
The I3ill was then read a second time on that under-
standing.