The Sun.
London, England, 1855-07-07 00:00:00

he occupied. The hon. gentleman, by implication, taunts ther they put into office gentlemtheonsewwhhoo onwaeroenhowoldi, t thethe
spirit
my noble friend with being actuated by an unworthy de- other side, or maintain in office
sire to retain political power and political place. Why, does manly and determinedwhich of
theythecounmtaryy
makeisn here orotto be
not the recent conduct of my noble friend acquit him at broken down by the speeches
PP:tithu°
once from any such imputation? Surely the hon. gentleman elsewhere. The country will an
the
full Governmentdet e
r exceptiai
na.
cannot forget that my noble friend voluntarilyresigned office one which will carrya on the war
successful issue, and that it would not
—hear, and a laughn—and went to that position, his conduct tion to carry it
the principles which are advocated by the hon.
in which the hon. gentleman now impugns. Did he not submit for a aintgole week to a Government that was con-
show by that that when he conceived that his public duty ducted uponor
f the IPinest Riding and the members for Man-
was incompatible with the retention of office, he was at
my humble opinion, no blame, but the contrary, once ready to leave office and place himself in a osition mcheemstbeerr, who concur with him. I have only to add that,
consistent with the opinions which he entertained? My
at-
noble friend went as plenipotentiary to Vienna. My noble in
taches to my noble friend for the part Which he has taken
friend returned in the double capacity of plenipotentiary in these transactions. In regard to the conduct of the
the operations of the war, I am
tad a memberof her Majesty's Government. My noble friend Government,. either in declining the proposition made by
convinced that we have only been following that which
entertained opinions which he had stated as to a proposal Austria, or in conducting
which Austria thought she might make with succeasto
is the decided and determined will of the people of this
the Government of Prussia. As plenipotentiary my
noblethe country. Notwithstanding the prophecies of failure and
friend was perfectly right in undertaking to prop"Lehu s calamity which come to us from time to time from gen-
arrangement to his Government, as M. Dronyn e Y
Govern- tlemen on these benches—(below the gangway)—l am
was justified in undertaking to propose it to thed
nor my firmly persuaded that by the help of Providence, and the
ment of France. But neither M. Drouyn de 6 befare justice of our cause, we shall lead this country to a success-
Lhu.
noble friend could undertake to do more thanotho lay
the Aus- ful termination of the struggle in which we are engaged.
their respective Governments the
idea which
ehitwo Govern- We shall then, perhaps, find that the honourable gentle-
trian Government entertained, but
these
of their men will confess themselves to have been as much out in
ments must necessarily have been left
decision upon a question of such vast and d paramount im- their calculations as the honourable gentleman the mem-
portance. My noble friend, member
m ber of the Govern- ber for the West Riding must admit himself to have been
ment, was perfectly entitled to unas a mdertake to represent a when he told us with an air of triumphant exultation that
but it is an entirely he would crumple up the empire of Russia as he would a
novel proposition to say that a member particular measure to his colleague, of a Government, sheet of brown paper. (Cheers.)
he deems worthy of the Mr. ROEBUCK—Sir, it appears to that there are
me
unless every proposition which
d b •
is accepte not, must retire
acceptance of the Government two very separate matters before the house at present. One
such a principle Government .
from it. Why, sir, upon is the character of the noble lord the member for London ;
of t• • b
the smallestperiod time , e•
could hold together forcause twelve or fourteen men, who
are perfectly
the other is the wisdom or fully of the present war. Upon
n
aereed
upon general principles, must necessarily on many occa- the first point I agree with the hon. member for the West
sinus differ in opinion as to particular measures, and the Riding and the right hon. member for Manchester, on the
•which parties can be kept together, or in
only way in nt can act harmoniously, is by the inter- second, I agree with the noble lord at the head of the go-
oe leaving them to a final decision, and vernment. I will endeavour to treat these two questions
those on one side
go-
chang© of opinion,
or the other giving up their particular quite distinctly. The noble lord at the head of the govern-
opinions
for the sake of a common action upon great gene- ment says that in a government composed as a government
sal
principles. The honourable member alto taunts my in this country is, of many persons agreeing in general
noble friend with • th having, since his return, made a speech, in
which he porn
• ted out the ambitious projects of Russia, and men must differ, u
principles, and differing as pon separate.
and individualquestions, there must necessarily be a cern-
the danger to Europe that would arise from the continu- .
once of that system of ambitious policy; and he seems toOn that •t I agree with the noble
promise of opinion.. point
think that there was something inconsistent between the lord: The only difficulty is to know to what extent that
speech and the opinion my noble friend entertained as to a compromise may go. (Hear, hear.) I think noble
thelord
particular project of arrangement. Why, nothing upon the member for London has shown that his view of this
earth could be more consistent. There was nothing in the compromise is one wholly inconsistent with perfect honesty
one at variance with the other. My noble friend might in public men. I will it once address mself to the co nduct
of the noble lord. He joined Lord Aberydeen's administra-
well think that a particular course of arrangement was one
which deserved the consideration of Government ; but he lion. War was declared by that administration. War was
was not on that account the less impressed with the
clan- carried on by that administration, until parliament met at
ger to Europe of the system of an ambitious aggression, the beginning of this year. During the whole.
which has for a long course of time been the policy of Rus- that cabinet had the support of thehthont ty of the noble
sia. My noble friend was perfectly at liberty when these
lord- The public knew nothing of idissensions.
of The autho-
city of the noble lord was given toeveryparticle conduct
questions came to be discussed in this house to restate the
en the part of the administration. 'When parliament met
opinions which, from the beginaingof this discussion, he had I proposed to move a resolution in
.hones. this Then, and
alwaysexpressed. The Government of France, and that of
England, each upon reasons of its thought that
own, the not till then, the noble lord took fright. Ho left his col-
n
in the lurch. It then came out that there had been
the 'leagues
..
proposal of Austria was not one which, under dissensions for a longtime .
ime in that cabinet. And dissensions
the circumstances in which we then stood, it trivial
upon hat ? Upon matters of minor import—upon
was advisable to entertain. The question was w whichreally agreeing on great principles
matters, on men
most anxiously and earnestly considered. The decisioncostitu-
not was might and must differ if governments are to be
come to in a hasty manner or upon light grounds. We i carried on in this country ? No, not at all; but
the etionaly
ueht that the proposal did not hold out to us the future vitalmatter of the war itself. And when I pros
security and reality of peace which we thought ourselves upon the
.math
ble lord left his colleagues, saying
posedthat motion eno
bound, both after having made suchgreat
exertions and that he could not resist the resolution I proposed, because
such great sacrifices ; and in the accounts the two Govern-
he differed with his colleagues upon the conduct of that
ments, equally upon their own reflection, determined that ar Upon what so vital could he have differed as that the?
the proposal wagons which they could not authorise Ass- wee.
r hear.) Should he not, as a man having at
tria to make in their name to Russia. We thought that to heart 'the character of public men—having at heart the
leave in the Black Sea a Russian fleet, capable of indefinite welfare of his country—ought he not, months before, so to
augmentation, with no other security than that England have declared the opinion which he held; and ought he
and France might each, when called upon by the Sultan, not then, and long before, to have deserted that cabinet
send a force equal to half the amount of that of Russia, to which he belonged ? (Hear, hear.) But he did no such
might probably lead totheaccumulation of a vast
maritime thing. He allowed
the army to dwindle down into
force in the Bieck Sea, which, threatening the security of • he allowed sufferings unheard of to be the por-
nothing ; Constantinople, and capable at any moment of carrying
a tion of that army • and he a
allowed that, knowing as he
large land force to the shores of Turkey would, so far from did that the conduct of the war was unworthy of this
establishing a security for peace, on the contrary, give it was in hands unfit to conduct it ; and he
to the relations between the Western Powers and country—that
stood there, and saw melting away under every species of
Turkey on the one hand, and Russia on the other, the
character of an armed truce instead of an unsuspecting disaster, a great and gallant army sent from these shores.
(Hear.) That is the first place which I lay to the door of
peace. The hon. gentleman thinks we have carried on the the noble lord • and I accuse him here, in the face of the
war without knowing the purpose for which it is conducted. Commons of England, of a dereliction of duty as a public
He says that there is no man in the country who knows I man. (Hear, hear.) What is the next? Having left that
what we are fighting for, and the right hon. gentleman cabinet, having seen the struggles to form another, he did
says that he should be at a loss to explain to any ono for not join that other, but he accepted an office as pleni-
what we are contending. Ido not know how far the right potentiary to Vienna. When he got there he found four
hon. gentleman and the hon. member might be able to ex- points agreed upon. Upon the third point great difference
plain it, but this I will undertake to say, that there is of opinion took place between Russia and the Allied
scarcely a peasant in the country who needs any enplane- powers—Austria at last proposing a plan which she sup-
tion, who does not understand what is' the object of the posed contained the elements of peace. The noble lord
war which we are carrying on. The hon. gentleman wishes approved that plan, and confidently stated to Count'Buol
to know, not the object for which the war is to he carried that when he came home he would press it upon the 'Go-
on, but the method in which it is to bo conducted. He wants vernment of her Majesty, and with his authority endea-
to know whether Sebastopol is to be invested ?He wants your to carry it. He came home in the double capacity
know what our army is to do—whether it is to winter in. the of plenipotentiary and Minister of the Crown. In this
Crimea, and what are our plans of operation ? Surely these house those conferences were discussed ; and the very
are not questions which the hon. gentleman expects point upon which the conferences went off came before
Government to answer? I say that the object of the war this house. Different opinions were expresed; but I ask
is to curb the ambitious designs of Russia in regard to this house if anybody ever learned from the noble lord
Turkey, and to establish a stateof things which shall afford
himself the real state of the conferences which he had left
security to Turkey, and through Turkey to Europe, and un- at Vienna? (Hear.) Only to-night has the noble lord
til that is accomplished, I think we shall not have acca m- confessed what really happened. ut after a long dis-
pfished the objects for which the war was undertaken. The cusaion upon that matter, we went tog division upon the
hon, gentleman treats very lightly the results of the opera- third point ; and the noble lord led this house to assume
tinns which have hitherto been undertaken. According to that he agreed fully with his colleagues upon that point.
him, it would seem that nothing has occurred but failure At the time that he so allowed the house to believe he
and. disaster. Why, sir, if any man will compare tbeconeli- had in his own mind a totally different opinion—(hear)—
tion in which Russia was when this warbegan with that in and he had conveyed that different opinion to our ally,
which she is now, if he will compare the advantage.3ll3 13.0-• Austria. (Hear.) Well, air, I want to know whether a
sition in which Russia then stood with that in which she public man could possibly have committed any act which
was now standing—l think every fair and candid mars will was so likely to compromise public men as that ? (Hear.)
confess that great advantages have been gained, and that It is all very well for the noble lord at the head of the Go-
Russia is by no means either politically, diplomatically, or vernment to say that no sooner does a person get into
in a military and naval respect, in the situation in power than he is assailed ; and the noble lord seems to
which she was when the war began. (Hoar, hear.) In think that the voluntary acceptance of power is of so wen-
the Baltic we have cooped up her fleet during two eum- derful virtue that he appears to me to forget the circum-
mere. Bomarsund, which threatened to be another stances under which the noble lord (Russell) actually left
Croustadt, has been entirely destroyed, and Russia has oot office. He left office, first, not being compelled thereunto.
ventured to reoccupy the position. The right hon. gentle- Ho came into office, secondly, when he differed wholly
man (Mr. M., Gibson) says that we boasted that wort could from the Cabinet ho joined upon the most vital of all the
take Cronstadt. We never made any such boast. No lean questions that could be submitted to the Cabinet at the
who knew anything of the strength of that fortress ever time, namely, peace or war. (Hear.) Again, that was no
held out any expectation that our fleet was going to take or trifling matter, but that was the very question upon which
destroy Gronetailte The answer of.ney right hon. friend the the Cabinet was formed. (Hear.) If it bad been a mere
member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham), that he had no accounts matter of internal regulation we should have the people up
of such transactions as those to which the right hon. gen- in arms, and the noble lord himself would have said that
tlernan referred, was no indication that my right hon. friend that this was a matter of principle, and that he could not,
expected Cronstadt to be taken. We have, however, gained therefore, join the other noble lord, differing from bim as
great and important advantage in the Baltic. In the princi- he did upon a matter of principle. Now, I want to know
palities the Russian forces have been expelled. They have what affects the happiness of this country at present more
been expelled, as was very properly stated, not by the ac- than the question of peace or war. You talk of principle;
tion of British and French troops—although the presence is there not principle here? (Hear.) And I ask this house
of those troops at Varna undoubtedly contributed in some again whether there is anything in the conduct of the Go-
degree to the retirement of the Russian forces—but mainly vernment at home at all equal in importance to the con-
by the action of Austria. It is nothing that Austria ivas per- duct of the war at present—(hear)—and whether the ques-
suede(' so far to taken-at with England and France. that by tion of peace or war, is not at the bottom of everything
herengegements with Turkey, and her military position, she now that holds or can hold an administration to-
obtained for Turkey and the allies the total evacuation of gather? (Cheers.) Having said thus much, very feebly
the principaities. That, I say, is a proof that both by expressing the opinion which , I really and sincerely
diplomacy as well as by arms great progress has been made entertain of the conduct of the noble lord. I will
in curbing the ambition of Russia and defeating her plans. address myself to tho second subject,—namely, ' the
The right hon. gentleman said we had talked of the moan- war itself. Mr. Gibson says that he for one can-
cipation of Poland and the independence of Hungary. We not understand the object for which we entered into
never talked of any such thing. The right hon. gentleman this war. I would ask him to take an analogous instance,
dreams and imagines things, and then quietly states them and, though it may seem somewhat a schoolboy illustra-
as if they were acknowledged and notorious facts. tion, I will apply it nevertheless. There was a set of re-
iiir. M. GIBSON—I beg the noble lord's pardon. I publics once upon a time, in the very bosom of which
heard him say distinctly, in reference to his policy, " There arose a power gradually built up, artfully coneocted,
is the condition of Poland, a standing menace to Germany." and eventually usurping dominion in those countries.
Lurfi PALMERSTON—Undoubtedly I did say that the Europe is a similar combination, I may call it, of republics,
nendition of Poland is a standing menace to Germany, but a combination of separatestates, in which there is now, and
Lilliad I ever say that England and France wore going upon has been for some time, rising up a great power, which is
rneade to exel the Russians from Poland ? I accom- likely to overshadow all of them, and acquire dominion
panied the
right ho statement by a further statement, which the
.. over all. The first body to which I have alluded were the
was the 10; gentleman might well have recollected, that it republics of Greece and Philip of Macedon ; the second is
whom th tennan Powers—Austria and Prussia—alone by Europe and Russia. And just in the same way that the
could be ew position could be altered, by whom alone Poland far-n.)11)6, statesmen of Athens pointed out the gradual in-
dis„_
._ rested from the dominion of Russia. I stated crease of power on the part of Philip, so, I say, that the
e"ectly that it •
to undertake was Impossible for England and France far-seeing statesmen of Europe now can point to the over-
Prussia felt tlLech a work. I stated that when Austria and grown power, the gradually increasing power of Russia;
Russia, that wamselves called upon to take the field against and that, as it was the interest of the Athenian Govern-
would endeavonsr ttlle danger from which, no doubt, they ment to oppose Philip, it is our interest to oppose Russia.
to the indepenriene protect themselves in the futnre. As The immediate cause of the war was a flagrant breach of all
gentleman hear raestof Hungary, when did the right hon. the laws of nations en the part of Russia. (Hear, hear.)
was to separate Hunn.. that one of the objects of the war Not the first breach by any means; but the danger had
have ever uttered upeoltartK from Austria ? Every word I at last grown to so gigantic a dimension that even our
iu a contrary sense. e have subject of Hungary has been peace loving country, our peace-valuing country, took
a calamity to Europe if
ti:tated that I should consider it fright, and opposed herself to the aggrandisement of
Austria were to destroy theeAseparation of Hungary from Russia. Sir, in doing this, I say that we have done wisely.
ence of which in the centre ofulrian empire, the exist- (Hear.) We should have done wisely to have done it be-
importance to the general eroPs I consider of great fore. (Hear, hear.) And though we had a great opponent
European community. nes interests and welfare of the in Napoleon, he had a mind comprehensive and foreseeing;
particular questions which doubt„eae I had opinions upon he saw the danger looming in the north, the great power
between Austria and Hungary .YtauT Past were raised circling the pole, and hanging over Europe, threatening
stant stated at any time that I rightde - her with destruction. (Hear.) We at length have seen the
Hungary from Austria could in any na the separation of wisdom of his vaticinations. And when the right hon.
the general welfare of Europe. CertainTy e conducive to gentleman talks of the horrors of war, which we all know,
thing drop from me, or any member of herng:r did any-
, and of the penalties which it imposes upon us, which we all
vernment, that tended in the slightest degree isstY:3 "To- know, it is to drive us from the pursuit of that which our
the assertion of the right hon. gentleman that to warrant jtrant
down great interest tells us we ought to pursue, namely, to
pan dale° of Hungary was any part of object for evliiintle.. put down the power of Russia. (Hear.) lam unable to go
war ag,ainst Russia was undertaken. Well, then, flow do on further with this question. I will only say that I be-
we stand in the Black Sea e Half the fleet of Ruts has Hove that it behoves every man fairly to consider this
been destroyed by her own hand, the rest has been cooped
s question, and if he is entrusted with power over his fellow
up, and, when success shall crown the efforts of our an men, to face it openly and avow his opinions upon it, no
m,
.11 no doubt fall into the power of the allies. The sea of matter what may be the consequence. I agree with the
weeleoff, which was the great source of supply to the Russian right hon. gentleman the member for Manchester that
army in the Crimea, has, by the gallantry and enterprise it is probable that the people will in a short time get tired
e
'ranch military and naval forces, beers b the ve
of the British and ...n
and
the
closed for such purposes, o
_Russianforces in the haveni, to encounter great obloquy. lam prepared. to
in very ;teat dibfiFulty as to the supply both of 'nen
Eat iti:ter it, and, being prepared for it, if disasters should
Crimea are d nrovisions. Therefore, our position ke our army I will boar any portion of that obloquy.
munitions of war an e
when the
atill, look' '
.war commenced Russia
is this—that whereas
I Lordat ;is ing to the honour and safety of the country,
invading the territory of our ally, now, on thet is a just and necessary war.
was actually
ally has been evacuated, and C. AMI
the territory of our
head of the MILTON said that the noble lord at the
contrary. occupying an important position government had told them that every peasant
we, on the contrary, are
The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cob- knot h
vw at was the origin of the but if
in the territory of Russia.
with 30,000 men to conquer giant knew more than those war, so every pea-
dein said, n Can you expect _
000 it happens that there are Treasury benches. Nobo. gentlemen who occupied the
the Crimea ?" Instead of 30. .from the noble lord the s y had even been able to elicit
at
the present moment •
liehtest • e information on the subject.
180,0000 the allies in the Crimea
beyond the pre-' The Government were ho
11,41'd, although the events of the future aretho
e that bete ther they require from Rrh to tell Parliament what fur-
and,
of man, there is every reason ?
pfind ourrs
the member for London o oasis beyond what the noble lord
any great length of time has elapsed weshall
oelves that they were justified at
oonsidered sufficient, and to show
duce in the rations which we are carrying ri moos sacrifices. It was sailitinuine the war at such °nor-
nome gentlemen ...ope
ntendthat it was unwise to send for which the war was under that Turkey was the object
an expedition to I know co From that opinion I en- Turkey. Where were the taken ; but let them look at
tire) y dißaent. the Crimea.
wander in the terra- gised two years ago .
, reforms which had been exile-
tories of the To have an army to
an army into the What et.
as the state of the finances
Bessarabia to ° Russia—to
which
e t provinces All was falling to pieces, and that • provinces of Turkey?
stretch up towards r among those vast
been an act of so much talked about was vitality which had been
the greatest pc,,,Z Mogeow wonm have
object
was to
.00zing away r nnun There
strike at that wh,ee military folly, Tho power
s nothing but despondency and wreck at
' ' was
in the Black sleah was the centre ofthroughout th
Russian minions of the Sultan, and the Turks had fallen e do-
the Crimea and senes,(Hear, bear.) That point was even in our despatches they were not mentioned and that
the difficulties which Whatever may have been
, were looked on less in value than the very beast and they.
no doubt they have been° have had to encounter—ann den. The Government mode a perfect mystery of sthoof bur-
lam of the same opinion %eater than was anticipated— they were seeking, and asked for the confidence of the result
was first planned and erde:t I "when the expedition when they did not show confidence in their own negotiator.
which was to be struck at—that that was the point If lion• members called themselves the representatives of
at Sebastopol that the preponeemint• was in the Crimea and the British people, they ought not to separate until they
Sea could be most effectually p4°e°,er Ruessie in the Black obtained a clear, definite statement from the Government
whatever exertions might be re • and
and that, of the object of the war, of the means by which it was to
required forte'
ment, that was the purpose which ought to
h accomplish- be continued, and what were to be looked upon as sufficient
vied out; and it was to that spot that theßriti-ave beert e tr" rantees
for the peace of Europe. (Hear.)
forces ought to have been directed. Thou
the
oh and French gua
"RAELI—Sir, in a few observations which I
man says that it is time that the Governenenit).". gentle- Mr. DI
Iwillstudiously avoid entering into tee
placed in other hands, and he regrets extremelyBl.lollld be intend io Illa---'
the of the war. This evening is
which he gave by which the gentlemen Opposite We be
ri the conduct
re ma t discussion o
memorable, for revelations--
in the benches which they now occupy ; and I ''ee' memorablel will be long am to infer , and that when next a vote is proposed, which shall have the effect (h 's on the part of a Minister in a very
ear —fo Cession
) r COM-
of bringing them to this side and placing us on that, the In which have probably not been
hon. member will be found among those who aro igh and •Peculiar position,
will- equal' in man. (Hear.) What have we
ing to affirm such a proposition. We shall then have the n Ailed the memory °f.
members of the Peace Society voting to place in power a eare I
int'neight, so unexpectedly, and which,
if I am not
ain-
set of gentlemen who, to their honour, I say, are, as far as Es-s"ane; is dt' • ess so seriously, and so p
es ined to impress we can judge from the language which they have held in fully, the o• • • 9 We have board an ad-
Pullen of t • ten . e
this house, as determined to carry on the war with vigour mission fro his nation
State that
'4 the noble
and energy as are the gentlemen who now occupy these was recently earn , lord the Secretary of
• ' posi-
benches. How far the hon. gentleman and those who act tion of a AliniatePen ny his Sovereign in
smog
ss .m.
-with him may think that by frequent changes of Govern- portent than peatellempotentiary on subjec le 1
ineut they may at last so far shake the confidence of the has admitted, great f,,,7:_r, that after havine
e given, as he
lic in those who have hitherto conducted their affairs, secution of his labour' t the DrO-
r, care .and anxiety - pro
thato
8' he
that in despair the people of this country may turn to them, of the difficulty with vsm arrivedh at a favourable solution..s
I am not of course able to say; but I think they will mind, had accomplished acres 5 Lad to contend, and, in his
find eon. • d
that that speculatien will not answer, and that whe. peace for this country, anti to 'AI would have secure
recornmeAd which to the