The Sun.
London, England, 1855-07-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 7, 1855,

to the conduct of the police on that occasion. (Hear, I letter. He had, however, sent a copy of the letter to Dr.
hear.) The honourable member (Mr. Buncombe) pre. 1 Hall and called for his answer to it.
sinned that the inquiry was to be conducted ! Me. DUNDAS wished to say a few words in the way of
explanation. A short while ago, in the beat of debate, he
miler the auspices of the Home-office, or eer the our- I
eiv.laneicntrayed into an expression to which a different
veillance of the police ; but such was certainly not his I
meaning I
convey.
Ho therefore reeretted having made use ' had been attached than that which he wished
of thehed to
(Sir G. Grey's) view wen he first proposed the inquiry;
and further, the hon. member had acted very unjustly I expression. (Bear, hear.)
~ What he had meant to say was
in leaving it to be inferred that the inquiry would be
simply this, that he hoped the right hon. baronet at the
'
one of a partial and unsatisfactory nature. Ho (Sir G. head of the Home Department would not spare any effort
Grey) pledged himself that the inquiry should be con- to maintain peace and order on Sunday next.
ducted in a manner which would be perfectly satisfare Mr. F. PEEL, replying to Lord W. Graham, said the
tory to _ the public. In justice to the police, he i principle upon which the compensation was granted was
felt bound to say that if the public went to the
simply this, the War-office first ascertained if the horse
I
htoadthbeeentlsoi!t in the public service, and that being proved
Park for the purpose of conducting themselves
dis-
properly and peaceably the police would protect them ;
cover whatsi •
was
nont
1.(1)0f the
valuell inn:. s rile, stepsan were taken to
imal. (Hear, hear.)
bat if they went there for a contrary purpose, the police, With regard to what had fallen from the hon. Member
they might depend, would be ever ready to do their duty (Mr. Stafford), there could be no doubt that if the letter
without fear either of intimidation or misrepresentation. of the army surgeon was to be believed the hospitals in the
After a few words from Mr. DUNCOMBE in reply, Crimea must be in a most discreditable state ; but at the
Col. LINDSAY, in defence of the soldiers alluded to, same time it was impossible for him to give any answer to
said that soldiers would never be found opposing the the allegations until he had had an opportunity of refer-
olice in the execution of their duty. (Hear, hear.) ring
them to Dr. Hall and the other heads of the me-
p Mr.J W. FOX said there was no blame whatever
dical department in the East. From the communications,
.
attached to the soldiers ;but when the promised inquiry however, which had been received from the Crimea, Go-
vernment were led to suppose that the hospitals were well
took place he should be prepared to furnish the names of supplied with everything that was necessary, while as for the
several' respectable men, who were witnesses to the attack of the 18th, a report had been received from Dr. Hall
police striking old inoffensive men, walking quietly which represented that every precaution was taken in an-
along, and also striking women and children. One ticipation of that event. He therefore could hardly bring
gentleman, a clergyman, was walking accidentally himself to believe that the statement of this regimental
along, and he told him (Mr. Fox) that he saw the surgeon could be borne out ; but, as he had already men -
police strike people with great and unprovoked fury, tioned, Government had sent out a copy of the letter to
and when he (the clergyman) began to address the Dr. Hall, and called upon him to furnish some explanation
police, remonstrating with them, there was such about it. As to what had fallen frem the hon. member for
a threatening attitude assumed by the police Edinburgh, he could add nothing. to what he stated on the
same subject' last week,ptsmbciithe migh state that. since then
towards him that he thought it more prudentbeen made forremoving the mi-
te make a rapid retyeat. He would take that oppor- litia from arrangements had
turtity of saying that he had received a communication DIPLOMATIC SERVICE.
from Houndsditch relative to the statements made in
On the motion for going into committee of supply,
that house by the hon. member for Dorsetshire (Mr. Mr. EWART called attention to the propriety of este-
Ker Seymer), as to the sales that take place there on blishing some test in the examination for candidates who
the Sunday, and stating that those sales afforded a wished to obtain employment in the diplomatic or consular'
cheap and ready mode of purchhse by persons who service.
could not attend such places on other days.. (Hear, and Lord PALMERSTON said the subject had been under
a laugh.) consideration, but as yet no definite plan had been fixed on.
Mr. KER SEYMER said the statement he bad made ACCIDENTS BY MACHINERY.
with reference to Houndsditch fair had not been contra- A conversation took place on the motion of Col. Dunne
dieted, but rather corroborated. As to the existence of for the production of papers connected with the death of a
Houndsditch fair, without any reference to the workman in a mill at Oldham from unfenced machinery.
Sunday Trading Bill, it was a disgrace to the metro- -The Government had no objection to give the papers, and
polls. . Mr. Heywood, Mr. Fox, Mr. Cheetham, and others de-
Mr. BOWYER bore his testimony, from personal fended the conduct of the masters and blamed the med-
dlin interference of Parament with he
observation, to the extreme brutality of the police on factog ries. In the end, theli papers were tgrantmed.anagement of
Sunday last in Hyde-park. THE NEGOTIATIONS AT VIENNA.
OFFICERS' INCOME TAX. Mr. GIBSON rose to ask for explanations from the Go-
Mr. H. BAILLIE asked the First Lord of the 'garment relative tothe opposition of her Majesty's Minis-
Treasury whether he was disposed to take into conei-
ters to the views of their colleague, the late British pleni-
deration the question that officers upon foreign service
should be exempted (as was now the case in India) from potentiary at the Vienna conferences, in reference to the
payment of income tax. plan proposed by Austria to be submitted to Russia for
Mr. S. KNOX, before the question was answered, the purpose of putting "an end to Russian preponderance
asked whether the additional pay of ls. per day was to in the Black Sea," as stated in the circular addressed by
be given to the soldiers who had served, and were Count Buol to the diplomatic agents of Austria, dated Vi-
serving in the Crimea I enna, May 25. Tee right hon. gentleman said he had made
Mr. BENTINCK deprecated the course adopted of some inquiries on Monday last relative to the policyof her
asking questions similar to this, and that of the hon. Majesty's v Government in the Eest' and to a certain statement
member for Finsbury, in which latter case the feelings of '
made in a diplomatic circular which had been published in
the people were more likely to be inflamed than sub-
dued. With various continental newspapers. Ho was afraid the course he
regard to the probable disturbance on
Sunday next, in Hyde-park, if_ such took place, he then took did not harmonise with the feelings of the house,
thought it would be attributable more to the ill-advised although it might be technically within ther rules, consi-
remarks of the hon. member for Finsbury than the con- dering the subject which had just been brought undertheir
duct of the Home Secretary. notice. But if he had committed any breach of their rules
Mr. DUNDAS bore his testimony to the forbearance of decorum he now begged to apologise for having done so.
of the police on Sunday last, in driving the canaille back and to state that he had no intention in any way to dis-
from the carriage way. The police could do no other garage the chez-eater of the late commander-in-chief, or to
than they had in driving those rascally boys who assem- manifest indifference to the motion under consideration at
bled there, yelling at every person who passed in a car- the time. (Hear.) The Prime Minister then said that he
liege: The majority of persons assembled were youths, would not be led into a discussion which would rouse the
under 20 years of age. He advised the Government, on venom of the peace party. [Lord PALMERSTON- " No, I
the next occasion,.to avail themselves of a 6-pounder. said ' hostility.' "] He had never mentioned the peace
Mr. WILLIAMS honed the ineluilY would be a strip- party in his inquiries, which would, perhape, have more
appropriately proceeded from a member of the war party,
gent one, when it would be found the conduct of the
as they related to the proceedings of the Government dur-
police was disgraceful.
' ine the recent occurrences at Vienna, and to matters upon
Lord PALMERSTON, in reply to Mr. Baillie s ques-
wEich every member of Parliament,
t, whether he be-
tion, said the reason why the Indian officers did not pay longed to the war or to the peace party, had a right to
the income tax • was on account of their being explanation. The noble lord the member for London ac-
paid out of the revenue of the India cused him of having misrepresented facts, and if that
company. Officers on active service have a field allow- were so it was quite fitting that he should be set right ;
ante besides their pay more than the amount of the in- but he should be the last man in the house to make
come tax to meet the additional expenses of the cam- any intentional misrepresentation, and he should be
paign, and that. field allowance was proposed to be ex- happy to retract any statements be had made which
tended to the men at the amount of 6d. per day, which were proved to be incorrect. His statements were
founded on public documents which had appeared in the
would allow them to have some extra comforts, and make newspapers—authorities, no doubt, not so good as actual
provision for their families. access to the papers in the Foreign-office, but still the only
Mr. ROEBUCK—I rise, sir, to speak upon a very ones within his reach. He complained that during the
serious matter. Words have been used by those who late debates, when the house was invited to come to a most
should not have uttered them—words have been spoken important decision as to the future prosecution of the war,
in this house which should not be used by any English they had not been treated with the consideration and
gentleman. The hon. member for Linlithgowshire has openness they had a right to expect, and that they had not
recommended to the right hon. gentleman the use of six- been put in possession of all the occurrences which had
pounders against the peopie—(hear, hear)— transpired at Vienna, or with the real opinions of her
more than that I thought military force should be used.
Mr. G. DUNDAS (interrupting)—l did not intend Xfajesty's Government, which they were entitled to hear,
•ihoerder thatt they miiginhatubsevreidd
was
a .Ntvileacrotnhcalr conclusion.
Mr. ROEBUCK The hon. member has apologised - came to
cooamlointaosthat vote if imporatasnit clear
thatthZ
wouylde
for his words. now peeped out indirectly through public documents from
The SPEAKER—The established rule of the house is other countries had been put into their possession—if they
that if exception is taken to words used by any hon. , had been told, forinstance, that the British plenipotentiary
member in the course of debate, a motion should be atVienna differed fromthePrimeMinister, that the British
made to have the words taken down immediately. plenipotentiary thought that proposals had been made
which promised an honourable and safe solution of the dis-
Mr. ROEBUCK—I rose, sir, to make that motion.
pute between England and Russia? If they had been told
(Order.) at the same time that this proposition had not been sub-
The SPE4KER—Whatever words may have been witted to Russia, in consequence of the refusal of the noble
spoken, they should not be taken exception to after that lord's colleagues to take that course, would not many mem-
time. I bers have hesitated before coming to the conclusion at
Mr. ROEBUCK—I rose immediately with the in- which they arrived, those facts not being before them?
tention of moving that the hon. member's words be taken At any rate, if that wore the case—and he had a right to
down, but I yielded to the hon. member for Lambeth, presume that it was—they were now entitled to a frank
who proceeded to address the house. Ithink that no man and candid avowal of the opinions of the members of the
who feels as an Englishman—that no gentleman in this' Administration of the policy they wore pursuing in the
house—should make use of any such expression as that. East, and of the objects they were seeking to accomplish..
He had observed that since the commencement of the war
made by the hon. member for Linlithgow hire. (Loud
almost every prediction to which the Government hail lent
cheers,) First, the hon. member called the people their sanction had been falsified. Whether he looked to
' canaille ;" then he took exception to their free enjoy- their alliances, to their military operations, or to their avowed
ment of the parks of this metropolis ; and then be called - objects in the prosecution of the war, in almost every case
on the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State to the events had been the very reverse of the predictions and
make use of six-pounders against them. (Great cheering:) announcements of the Administration. Why, Sebastopol
The people of this metropolis believed themselves un- was to fall last year; soon after Sir C. Napier arrived in the
justly treated. Ido not think that the noble lord the Baltic the First Lord of the Admiralty stated, in reply to a
member for Middlesex acted unwisely in withdrawing his question of whether Cronstadt had been taken, that he had
noxious bill as he did, though lam not a friend to any not yet received official information of that fact. (Laugh-
ter.) Then with regard to their alliances, with what coun-
course that would be yielding to clamour. (Hear.) But
tries were they now associated ? Yet, they had been told
that was a different thing from the course which is re- that Austria was to be their active ally, that Prussia was
commended by the hon. member—that of using six- to act with them, that Sweden was eager to lend her forces
pounders against the inhabitants of this metropolis. It for their assistance. Then, with regard to the avowed ob-
is all very well for the hon. gentleman to say that he did jects of the war, after they had been told by the Duke of
not mean what he said, but surely he has arrived at Newcastle, in a despatch, that no safe and honourable
years of discretion. (A. laugh.) As the Speaker has peace could be concluded without the fall of Sebastopol,
decided that the words cannot now be taken down, I did not a member of the
o the of which t
Government now inhe duke
will not make the motion which I had intended. was a member, and alsopower,
STEAM-POSTAL COMMUNICATION WITH go to Vienna for the very purpose of making peace, with-
out a word about the fall of Sebastopol, or making that
' AUSTRALIA.
Sir J. PAKINGTON asked the Secretary of State for condition a sine qua non? What, then, was the object of
the war? Sometimes it was the fall of Sebastopol,
the Colonies whether he had received copies of a circular
sometimes it was merely the obtainment from the Go-
of the-Governors of the Australian colonies, containing the
vernmont of Russia of a stipulation, written on a piece
description of a plan for the establishment of regular steam
of paper, which every member of the house thought
postal communications with these colonies ?
would not be worth a straw as a security, but could
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that the Treasury had under
their control and management the mails for Australia, and only be intended to humiliate and insult the enemy with
managementwhom they were contending. Not one of t e extravagant
that his hon. friend the Secretary for the Treasury would
expectations that the Government had sanctioned had been
state what arrangements were in operation or in contem-
realised. They had sanctioned the folly which had been
plation.
of mails by the talked about a war for liberty, for the restoration of
Mr. WILSON said that the arrangement Poland, and the independence of Hungary, but the House
Cape of Good Hope had been abandoned, but with respect was still in doubt as to what was the object of the war,
to communications every two months by India they were
and the nature of the policy the Government were pursuing
not abandoned, but only suspended in consequence of the
Peninsular and Oriental Company not having ships to per- and he felt, seeing the blood they were lavishly expending
form the service. A proposal had been made by the Tree- and the. treasure they were. wasting, that he was but die.
charging one of his first duties as a member of Parliament
surf to the Peninsular and Oriental Company for mailsadvantages
yet month to the Australian colonies, but no answer had as when he incessantly asked them what were the.
they proposed to confer on the people. of this country in
yet been received. The subject would not be lost sight of,
and he could assure the right hon. gentleman that the Go- consideration of the enormous sacrifices which they called
upon the people to make. The Times newspaper said that
vernment felt a lively interest in the establishment of a
tlp© object of the war was so clear that a labouring man could
satisfactory arrangement, and a desire for a monthly co-
define it. But, although he had been always an xious to obtain
neunication with our Australian colonies. (Hear.) tom-
information on the subject, he had been unable to get at the
'COMPENSATION FOR PRICE OF COMMISSIONS, object of the war. If a labouring man were to ask him what
Mr. RICH brought under the notice of the house the was the object of the war, and for what purpose he had
heavy charge and serious consequences that may ensue from been called upon to make the sacrifices ho was now making
grants to the widows of officers killed in action, as compen-
—to deny his children education, to curtail the comforts
sation for the price of the commissions which their husbands of his humble home—the only answer he could make would
may have purchased. He complained that when, on the bo that the British Government were endeavouring to at-
occasion of his making a motion relative to the sale and pur- tack the Ottoman empire more completely to the equili-
chase of commissions in the army, on Tuesday last, he had brium of Europe, and to put an end to the preponderance
been counted out, the bell had not been rung, as was the of Russia in the Black Sea, and that it was worth while for
rule. However, he promised that he would next year bring labouring men to make what sacrifices they could to assist
forward the question of these purchases and sales, and show in accomplishing those objects. Ho believed that the Go-
that the system was worn out, and injurious to the service, vernruent had never told the country what their real ob-
ject was in the prosecution of this war. They were drifted
and that it could be abolished without adding to the public
expense. He understood that the Government proposed into it, and they kept drifting on. If ever they had a di-
to grant a sum of money equivalent to the price of the vided Government in connection with the carrying on of
commission; but be could not gather from the explanation this war, it was his conscientious belief that they had a
given by the noble lord whether that equivalent should be divided Government now; and if success depended on
given to officers only who had purchased their commissions, having a clear and united opinion in- the Government in
or whether it was to be given to officers generally. The such a matter es that of carrying on a great war, he saw
house was bound to consider the question as involving a sufficient division of opinion in the present Government
new principle and involving a great expense. He did not to make success extremely problematical. To prove that
see how the noble lord could confine these grants to officers there was such a division in the Government, he need only
killed in action, or how he could exclude officers who died refer to the despatch addressed by Count Buol to the diffe-
of their wounds, or officers who had been seriously wounded rent German Powers after the twelfth conference at
and came home, or those who died of exposure' who were Vienna—not the conference which finally concluded the
frozen, or struck by ,the sun. (Hear.) He did not see negotiations, but that at which the negotiations were
how these officers could be, excepted from the benefit of broken off. Count Buol stated, without any opposing re-
this arrangement. Then it would be dangerous to draw mark from either of the plenipotentiaries present, that al-
such a line of demarcation between officers who purchased though the propositions made by Russia might not be the
their commissions and those who did not. He begged the most desirable mode of settling the question in dispute,
noble lord at the head of the Government to give some and might not satisfy the third basis of the negotiations,
explanation on this question. still he thought the proposition contained the elements of
Mr. HEADLANI said that this was a proposal which solution, and that, in his opinion, it was especially the
originated from a motion of his, and though he did not duty of Austria to endeavour to find out a plan of ap-
think the Government proposal was as fair to officers as preaching Russia's proposal which should satisfy the third
it should be, he was glad they had done something. He point, and thus enable peace to be re-established between
had received more than one application from the friends the belligerents on the basis of the four points. Count Buol
of deceased officers, and it was due to them that the deci- eta—
sion of the Government should be at once made known. n If, since the outbreak of hostilities, there was any one
Lord PALMERSTON said that the arrangements moment when more than at another the restoration of peace
which his noble friend tihe Secretary of War contemplated might be considered probable, it was the moment when Lord
were being put into shape, and there was found groat cliff- John Russell and M. Drouyn de Lhuys left our capital.
culty in carrying them into operation equitably. He The conferences, it is true, had only led to the rejection of
could assure hon. members that no unnecessary delay the propositions made by the belligerent Powers, but upon
would be permitted in forming the general orders on this both sides it appeared to be admitted that these propositions
subject. (Hear.) offered the elements of peace; and we were not only able to
Lord W. GRAHAM asked the Under-Secretary of declare without opposition that we believed ourselves especi-
War whether the regulation for the compensation to offi- ally called to occupy ourselves in seeking out the means of an
core for the loss of their horses had been amended? He approximation, but we also put forward a draught of an ulti-
found that some officers of the highest rank received 501. matum, which was to be sent to St. Petersburg, and which
eath for the loss of their chargers, that a colonel received we considered not inadmissible by Russia, since an immediate
351., a major 271., and a lieutenant 231. He should have limitation of Russia's sovereign rights in the Black Sea was
thought that a uniform sum for the loss of chargers would avoided, but which at the same time seemed so completely
be the fairest plan. Then he found that General Penne- to satisfy the object of the third stipulation, and put an end
father received 14 guineas for the loss of a hack, whilst to Russian preponderance in the Black Sea, that the before-
Lieutenant Hopkins only received 1/. 10s. for the loss of named Ministers of France and England, in confidential in-
his. terviews, showed themselves decidedly inclined towards our
In answer to Colonel Knox, proposal, and undertook to recommend the same to their Go-
Lord PALMERSTON said it was intended to increase This plan of an ultima-
the soldier's pay while he was in the field by the rate of 6d. tum, therejection of which by Russia we declared ourselves
a day, with facilities afforded to him, as in the navy, to '
vernmen'ts with all their influence.
P ready to make a casusbelii, consisted of two distinct proposi-
send the mosey to his friends. tions, of which the Russian Government was to take its
THE WOUNDED BEFORE SEBASTOPOL.
choice."
Mr. STAFFORD called the attention of the Government
hsatmhee as had been laid before
kinddetails of the propositions.
to a letter from an army surgeon, which appeared in the He need
were
t muchgo t through otuhees
columns of a contemporary, detailing instances of great ne-
lect in the preparations made in the field hospitals for the the house. The circular proceeded thus
greception of the wounded in the attack on the 18th. He " Lord John Russell, before leaving Vienna, was made
asked whether the Government meant to take any steps in acquainted by verbal communication with these proposals.
consequence of this letter ? The French Minister, M. Drouyn de l'Huys, who left Vienna
me, PEEL read a letter from .Dr. Hall, detailing the some days later, received a written copy of our plan, and un-
preparations that were made for the care of the wounded dertook to submit it to the examination of his Sovereign and
on the morning of the 18th, and how well they worked. also to bring it before the British Government. It is untie-
Thin Way a 0911tradiOtiOn to the an egatione contained in the _ cessary to speak here 0 regret with which, very soot

the armed force of Turkey was not one-tenth of that which
Russia possesses. Added to this was an additional source
of difficulty—namely, that some 10.000,000 of the subjects
of Turkey were of the religious faith of the Emperor o'
Russia, and had been taught assiduously to look to the
Emperor of Russia for protection. It has always appear° l
to me that the task upon which we entered was a most dif-
ficult one. I do not think it will take long to show in what
respect it was difficult, and I think I can mention some
difficulties which both in war and in peace must attend
the attainment of the object which we have in view.
Some persons of high military authority thought at the
beginning of the war that it would be quite sufficient, and
that it would be the most effective means of defence for
Turkey, if lines were drawn from the Black Sea to the Sea of
Marmon,. somewhat resembling the famous lines of Torres
Vedras But the circumstances were totally different. The
Duke of Wellington was enabled to defend the lines of
Torres Vedras because the population were generally op-
posed to the invasion, and thelonger the invaders stayed in
the country the weaker their army became, and the less able
to obtain supplies. But if Russia had crossed the Balkan
and had arrived within 20 miles of Constantinople, she
would have had the means of raising an insurrection
throughout the Christian population of the Turkish pro-
vinces, and she would have been strengthened every day
and every week in her attempt to destroy the independence
of Turkey. (Hear.) And new let us see what were the
difficulties that would have occurred in a time of peace.
We have had some discussions on former occasions with
respect to the Principalities. Those Principalities are in-
habited by Christians, and it has been said, naturally
enough, "Make a Christian State there, and thereby esta-
blish a barrier against Russia." But the Russian interest
is strong in these provinces, and there are so many persons
who are bound to Russia by the strongest ties that to
make an independent Stato there would only have
been to strengthen Russia, and to enable her to
pursue her projects with greater security. (Hear,
hear.) If, on the other hand, you give to Turkey all
she used to have, and admitted the Turkish army into the
principalities, you might secure their independence. Con-
sidering these things and many other questions of a similar
nature, it has always appeared to me that the end of this
war must be not merely a treaty between the belligerents
on one side—namely. France, Great Britain, and Turkey—
and Russia on the other, but that there must be a general
treaty in which the Powers of Europe could take part, and
in which each should give a fair security for the mainte-
nance of the integrity and independence of Turkey. Having
taken that view, it is obvious that I must consider the co-
operation of Austria as being of the highest value. That the
co-operation of Austria would be of great value during war
no one will deny. If at the present moment the Austrian
array were advancing into Bessarabia, 40,000 or 50,000
Russian troops would be unable to march into the Crimea;
if it were operating on the side of Galicia, that again would
prevent the Russian force from being sent from Poland to
the seat of war. And, Sir; in the ?arrangements to be made
with regard to peace, I believe that the alliance and co-
operation of Austria would be at the least as effective and
at the least as necessary. The pathway by which Russia
could send her land armies to the attack of Turkey is
across the Danube, by the side of the Austrian provinces,
and through the Balkan. That is the way in which, on
more than one occasion, she has attempted to invade Tur-
key, and it is the road by which, on the last occasion, hav-
ing crossed the Balkan, the Russian army reached Adrian-
ople. But if Austria undertook, in alliance with France
and Great Britain, to prevent any such aggression, and to
oppose it by the force of arms, and if France and Great
Britain on their side had sufficient means of opposing a
naval aggression, we should then, to use the language of
Mr. Fox, which was quoted the other night by the hon.
gentleman the member for West Riding, " make it the
interest of Russia to maintain peace." I quite agree with
the opinion expressed in the extract read by the hon. gen-
tleman from Mr. Fox, that the best security against ag-
gression is the interest of a Power to maintain peace.
[Mr. Cobden.—" The only security."] The honourable
gentleman says, " the only security," but that is
a phrase liable to some qualification. I have al-
ways considered that, whatever arrangements may
be made for the security of Turkey in order to
have a durable peace, we ought to have Austria
and Prussia and the States of Germany parties to a gene-
ral alliance, by which Turkey would be secured from aggres-
sion. (Hear.) I now come to the mission with which I
was charged to Vienna. It appeared to me—and I remem-
ber that I expressed that opinion very strongly to Lord
Cowley, her Majesty's ambassador at Paris—that I should
be able to ascertain what it was that Austria and Prussia
were ready to agree to. At the same time I thought that,
whatever might be the effect of the negotiations, it would
not be possible to come to any decision at Vienna, but
that it must be left to the Governments of France and
Great Britain to decide ultimately whether there were any
terms which they could assent to as terms on which to
conclude a safe and honourable peace. Upon my arrival
at Vienna there were, of course, two kinds of negotiations
to be entered into. There was the negotiation which was
to be conducted in conferences, and in conferences only,
between the three belligerent Powers and Austria, who
had signed the treaty of the 2d of December, and Russia.
That was one part of the business upon hich we were
to enter. But the other, and perhaps the more important
part, was to ascertain by repeated interviews and discus-
sions the views of the Austrian Government, and endea-
vour either to procure her assistance in concluding peace,
or to discover the terms upon which she would make an
ultimatum to Russia. I find that a very few days after
my arrival at Vienna—so early as the 7th of March—l
discussed with Count Buol as well as with the French
Minister then resident there, Baron Bourqueney, and the
English envoy, the various stipulations which came under
the denomination of the four points. Upon the mention
of the third point the French and English plenipoten-
tiaries declared that it appeared to us that the best
solution of that point was to obtain from Russia a
limitation of her forces in the Black Sea. We stated
that if that limitation were agreed to, the general rule
of the treaty of 1841—namely, the closing of the
Straits—might be maintained. We stated that it
would then be possible to withdraw the armies and
fleets from the Black Sea, because there would no
longer exist the preponderance of Russia—there would
no longer exist a standing menace to Turkey. Count Buol
so far agreed that he said, "Undoubtedly that is the best
solution of the third point. Undoubtedly the best security
you can have is the limitation of the Russian fleet. But,"
he added, " there is another solution, and that would be,
instead of weakening Russia, to strengthen Turkey. It is
the opinion of the Austrian Government that the third
point may be carried into effect either in ono mode or the
other. The proposal you make is undoubtedly the best; we
should be very glad to see it assented to by Russia ; in the
conference we shall give it every support, but we will not
say that we do not reserve to ourselves the power of pro-
posing the other mode—namely, instead of a limitation of
Russian force, to have a counterpoise on the part of the
allies." So far, sir—and, indeed, I would say not only so
far, but throughout- I have no complaint to make, as the
right hon. gentleman supposes the Government to make, of
treachery against Austria. (Hear.) Her conduct I find
fault with—perhaps very great fault in some respects—but
I think there has been no treachery and no bad faith in the
matter. I think she was entitled to say, as a Power which
had not gone to war, as a Power which was at peace with
Russia, We will ends our to seek for the solution of
those difficulties by the attainment of all the four points,
which we consider necessary for peace, but we do not bind
ourselves to one particular mode of obtaining one of those
points. We think ourselves at liberty to propose another
I mode, and if that other shall be found sufficient, we will
not rely solely upon the one which you propound." I could
net but say that I thought the Austrian Government wore
wrong in their supposition that the second mode of solu-
tion was as good as the first. I stated objections, and I
stated them over and over again at repeated interviews
with Count Baol—objections which are obvious enough—
to the propositions he made. One objection is, that
Great Britain and France might not al ways be dis-
posed to go to the considerable expense which would be
necessary in order to maintain a fleet in the Black
Sea which could be at all reckoned as a counterpoise
to the Russian fleet. Another objection is, that it would
obviously be placing Turkey, as it were, under the imme-
diate protection of those two Powers, aid would thereby
in some respects weaken her position. But a third objec-
tion—which I still think a very strong ono- is, that three
or four fleets—the fleets of Turkey, assisted by those of
France, England, and Austria on the one side, and the fleet
of Russia on the other—would have all the appearance of a
competition for preponderance, and would thereby weaken
the general feeling in the solidity and duration of peace.
Well, discussions went on, as the house has seen by the
papers which have been laid before Parliament. The Aus-
trian Government, through Count Buol and Baron Pro-
kesch, its representatives at the conference, supported
with great force of argument the propositions which
were made for limitation, or else for making the Black
Sea a commercial sea. I should say, however, with re-
spect to this last proposition, that it was not cordially
adopted by the Austrian Government, but they did cor-
dially adopt the proposal and support the arguments iu
favour of limitation, which I was orciered by my instruc-
tions to put forward. The right hon. gentleman, having
read several extracts from Count Buol's circular, strangely
enough said ho would not read the particular propositions
which Austria made, but he left it to the house to believe
or to infer that those propositions were the same which
were made by Russia. Now, I think a very few minutes
would suffice to show that, whether they were satisfactory
or unsatisfactory, whether they were adequate or inade-
quate, they were totally different from those of Russia.
The proposal of Russia at the time when I was at Vienna
was, that the fleets of all the Powers, their armed vessels,
should have liberty to go through the Straits. The prop°,
sition they made after I left Vienna was that the closing of
the Straits should be maintained as a principle, and that
Turkey should have the power of calling on her allies when
she pleased to send her fleets there. Now, the Austrian
proposition does not at all resemble these two, upon which
I was not arguing, for they have been discussed in the
house upon former occasions, and the house, by a very
great majority, were of opinion that they were inade-
quate. The Austrian proposal was founded upon that
which Count Buol had made to us when we first had an
interview with him. He proposed, in the first place, that
the rule of 1841 should be maintained, but that it should
be maintained with exceptions in favour of the allies, and
with no exceptions in favour of Russia. Thus, according
to that principle—which I certainly very much doubt
whether Russia was at that time prepared to adopt—there
would have been the power on certain occasions of sending
armed vessels—ships of the lino - belonging to France, Great
Britain, and Austria into the Black Sea, while there would
have been no power on the part of Russia of sending her
vessels either from the Black Sea into the Mediterranean or
of sending vessels fromthe Baltic into the Mediterranean and
from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea. The passage, in
short, would have been entirely closed to Russia ; it would
not be closed topowers which had not establishments in the
Black Sea. The particular mode in which the proposal was
to be carried into effect was this. (I do not conceive it is a
proposition on the part of Austria to be considered by her
allies, and of course the details were not finally settled.)
What she proposed was that, supposing—which seems to
have been ascertained by Admiral Lyons—that Russia had
six sail of the line in the Black Sea, while she had that
number and no more, England, France, and Austria should
each maintain two frigates in the Black Sea, and have
power to renew them from time to time. If Russia should
increase her force—for instance, if she should augment her
fleet from six to eight sail of the line--then half the num-
ber maintained by Russia might be maintained by the
three allied Powers, so that, while Turkey would have
eight sail of the line as an equivalent to the eight of Rus-
sia, England would have four and France four at the same
time. elt was proposed in the same way that if Russia
should continue to augment her force—for instance, if she
had 12 sail of the line—each of the maritime Powers
should have six, while Austria would, of course, have
her own naval force, and thus we should maintain a
counterpoise in regard to Russia. But, in addition to
this, Count Buol was ready, as I was told verbally on the
day before I left Vienna, to agree to the treaty which he
mentions in this circular between Austria, Great Britain,
and France, by which they should agree to give a guaran-
tee for the independence and integrity of Turkey. That
was a point on which I had laboured during the time I
was at Vienna. When I first saw Count Buol, I told him
my general opinion, with regard to the limitation of the

after, we received intelligence, not of the hoped for accept-
ance of England ani France, but, instead, the opposition of
the English Ministers to the -views of their colleague, and of
the resolution or the Emperor Napoleon to relinquish the ser-
vices of the Minister who had just won the admiration and
the confidence of the Austrian Court."
If this dorrument contained a correct account of what
occurred, it would seem that at the very moment when the
Government were asking Parliament to agree to carry on
the war with vigour, the noble lord the member for
the city of London believed that the war was not a matter
of necessity, but that the means of soletioa were in his
hands, and that it was only for him to submit the proposal
which had been made to his Government, and thereby
enable the belligerents to settle the question in an honour-
able and satisfactory manner. Was not this a question,
then, sufficiently grave to claim the attention of Parlia-
tneut ? Were they prepared to say that there was any
man who wished war to be carried on one instant longer
than necessity required, however anxious he might have
been in the first instance to take up arms ? It appeared
to him that the noble lord the member for the city of Lon-
don went to Vienna with the bona fide intention of malc-;
ing an honourable peace. He (Mr. Gibson) approved en-
tirely of the declaration made by that noble lord ; it was
a declaration of a statesman, and one which it was worthy
of an English Minister to make, when he said that the only
terms of peace which were desirable were those that were
consistent at once with the honour of Russia and
sufficient for the security of Europo. In that spirit it
appeared to him the noble lord was prepared to act ; but
his instructions, as he said, were exhausted. His col-
leagues appeared to entertain different views. They seemed
to desire to avoid the chance of making peace at Vienna,
and of preventing the noble lord from accomplishing what
he (Mr. Gibson) believed the noble lord earnestly desired
to accomplish—the putting an end to these unfortunate
hostilities. It was known that M. Drouyn de Lhuys thought
it impossible for him any longer to hold the office he had
hitherto held in the French Government after the opinions
ho had expressed at Vienna, and which opinions were pre-
cisely similar to those which had also been expressed by the
noble lord the member for the city of London. Therefore
was it that he (Mr. Gibson) asked how could that noble lord
reconcile the retention of office in the present Government
if ho still retained the opinions he expressed at Vienna ?
If, indeed, the noble lord had changed those opinions, and
if he no longer thought that the terms proposed by Austria
ought to be submitted to the consideration of the British
Government, lot him frankly avow that change of opinion;
and if the noble lord did so he (Mr. Gibson) would not have
one word more to say on the subject: But he could not sit
silent while he saw the noble lord attached to a Govern-
ment which was pledged to the carrying on of a war for
the purpose of crippling Ruesia, being thoroughly con-
scious that that noble lord must believe that the war had
been carried on beyond the necessity of the ease, and there-
fore at a wanton sacrifice of the blood and treasure of this
country. They had been led to believe that some difficul-
ties had arisen in connection with this het proposal at
Vienna with our ally. Was it so? Was it, or not, the fact
that the Emperor of the French, wishing to-act in strict
accordance with this country, announced to hie ministerthat
if the British Government would agree to the proposition of
Austria being submitted to Russia as an ultimatum, he was
willing to acquiesce ? That had been asserted in the presence
of the British Minister, and it had not been contradicted.
It was stated by the honourable member for the West
Riding, and also by the right hon. baronet the member for
Carlisle. The right hon. gentleman said, " The Emperor
of the French was not unwilling to accept it; he proposed
to the English Government that it should be accepted;
and that its rejection took place in consequence of the in-
fluence of the English Government being exerted against
it, and that consequently M. Drouyn de Lhnys, who thought
it acceptable, had retired from the Council of the Empe-
ror." If these assertions were incorrect, it was high time
that the Government should put tie country straight, for
rumours of this kind must be pernicious if not founded on
fact. With regard to the zeal of Austria in her alliance
with this country, he confessed that he was no admirer of
Austrian institutions ; but he believed that the feeling en-
tertained with respect to Austria having been treacherous,
and of having failed to fulfil her engagements with this
country, had chiefly arisen from our having entertained ex-
tras agent expectations of what Austria was prepared to
undertake—expectations which the Government of England
ought to have known were not sufficiently well founded.
He had referred to all the documents and to all the treaties
to which Austria had been in any way a party, and he did
not find in any of them a single paragraph to sustain such
expectations. There was not a word throughout the proto-
cols or the treaties which pledged Austria to do anything
which she bad failed to do. He attributed, therefore, this
expression of disappointment to that habit which England
seemed to have of supposing that other countries were
equally ready to draw the sword in questions in which they
were not concerned as she herself was, and that Austria
and Prussia, and those various countries with which they
were allied, must of necessity see this war in the same point
of view as it was seen by Great 'Britain. The Austrian
Government, by the treaty of December, 1851, pledged it-
self to endeavour to make peace by reasonable negotiations.
He contended that Austria had fulfilled that engagement.
What were the terms of the treaty between Austria, Eng-
land, and France ? They were these
" Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Ireland, his Majesty the Emperor of Austria,
and his Majesty the Emperor of the French, being animated
with the desire of terminating the present war at the earliest
possible moment, by the re-establishment of a general peace
ou solid bases, affording to the whole of Europe every gua-
rantee against the return of the complications which have so
unhappily disturbed its repose. . • . - The high con-
tracting parties refer to the declarations contained in the
protocols of the 9th of April and tie 23d of May of the present
year, and in the notes exchanged on the Sth of August last."
The allusion to these papers was merely a reference to the
four points as bases of negotiation; and it appeared to
him that the only engagement Austria entered into was to
endeavour to assist England and France in negotiating a
peace and submitting proposals which, in its opinion,
would be considered reasonable by the Emperor of Russia,
with the view of settling the dispute ; and, in ease of the
failure of these negotiations, all that Austria bound herself
to do was to "deliberate without delay upon effectual
means for obtaining the - object of their alliance." He
thought the most effectual means of obtaining the object of
that alliance was to submit to Russia the propositions
which Austria had drawn up, and which were approved
by the plenipotentiaries sent to Vienna by the various
Powers. What possible fault, then, could be found with
Austria? She submitted a plan which was apoved by
the plenipotentiaries; but the plenipotentiaries were
thrown over by their respective Governments, who turned
round upon Austria because she did not draw the sword,
and complained that she had broken her engagement. He
was afraid that, before this war terminated, there would
be charges of treachery in other quarters. He did not be-
lieve thy were going to uphold the integrity and inde-
pendence of the Ottoman empire', and he cautioned the
Prime Minister that a day of retribution would come. If
the expedition to the Crimea should end in signal disaster,
the Government might endeavour—as Governments had
done on former occasions—to throw the blame upon their
generals and admirals, but in the end the responsibility
would be fixed upon the executive Government, who were
alone responsible for that expedition. They sent out our
troops, contrary to the advice of their bast generals and ad-
mirals ; they had sacrificed the flower of the British army
—(hear)—they had sacrificed millions of the public trea-
sure ; they had concealed from Parliament material facts
which transpired at the conferences of Vienna, and which
it was necessary Parliament should know for the guidance
of their opinion ; and he must say the course they were
pursuing seemed to him calculated to inspire want of con-
fidence in the Administration, and led him to tho conclu-
sion that they were destined to bring great disasters upon
the country, and his belief was that the country would
visit those disasters upon their heads.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I am very glad the right hon, gen-
tleman has now made his imputations upon the conduct of
the Government at a time when those imputations can be
answered. I certainly was surprised when, the other day,
upon an occasion which I should have thought would have
induced the right hon. gentleman to refrain from bringing
before the house any question that coald occasion contro-
versy, he introduced a topic of this ,nature and made
serious charges against the Government. Wore it not for
the remark of Mr. Grattan, that persons are very often
tempted to make observations by the impropriety of the
occasion—(a laugh)—l should hardly have thought the
right hon. gentleman would have taken such an opportu-
nity of making his statement. As, however, the right hon.
gentleman has brotight forward the subject now upon go-
ing into committee of supply, I cannot but own that he is
fully entitled to explanation, and that the correspondence
which has taken place with the Austrian Government on
this great question fitly deserves to obtain the atten-
tion of the house. Before I enter into that question, I
must refer to the right hon. gentleman's affirmation
that we have been disappointed in all our predictions,
and that the objects of the war are such as ho has
been pleased to describe. Now, so far from being dis-
appointed by the events of the war, I will say that;
although the, siege of Sebastopol has not hitherto been at-
tended with the success we anticipated, yet that the re-
' pulse of Russia at the siege of Silistria, the evacuation of
the Danubian provinces, and the consent of Russia to aban-
don entirely and for ever all those special treaties which
gave her the pretence for interfering with Turkey, were
successes far beyond those which we had hoped to accom-
plish in so short a time. But then the right hon. gentle-
man says we believed that Cronstadt would fall immedi-
ately, and he founds this assertion upon the declaration of
the First Lord of the Admiralty.that he had no official in-
telligence of the fact. How the right hon. gentleman could
have formed upon such a statement the conclusion that we
expected to hear of the immediate fall of Cronstadt, is cer-
tainly beyond my comprehension. The right hon. gentle-
man went on to say that we proposed the restoration of
Poland and the independence of Hungary as two of the
objects of the war. We have never promised or held out
hopes of the restoration of Poland, for we have always
considered, in conformity with the declaration of the
First Lord of the Treasury, that, if that restoration
be accomplished at all, it will be accomplished by Austria.
Being on terms of intimacy with many Poles, when
they have spoken to use on this subject I have always told
thom, "If Austria will take your part, and should consider
the restoration of Poland attainable, you may
enter-
tain some hopes of accomplising such a result, but do not France will alone u
imagine that England and then
ndertake to
accomplish it." I stated recently to a Polish nobleman, of
whose friendship any one may be proud, that I had no con-
ception that England and France would attempt the re-
storation of Poland, and that, if they did not attempt it, I
thought it would be the greatest crime to encourage expec-
tations which must be disappointed. Then with regard to
the independence of Hungary, I must say that it would
eee smptuos
haveto
obtain
bbtemei nn
the most
independence and seeking the alliance of Austria, we had sought
of Hungary. when negotiating with
Hungary. It has been
stated that one of the objects of the war was to effect the
independence of HungarY, but no such object has ever been
put forward by her Majesty's Government. (Hear, hear.)
u
The right honourable gentleman says he should find great
difficuly in explaining to a labouring man the objects
of the war, but it fortunately happens—for I have no doubt
the hon. gentleman is right in his statement—that the la-
bouring men, the artisans, the country have throughout
had a very clear conception of what the objects of the war
are. (Hear.) They know that the war was entered into
to prevent the further aggrandisement of Russia, to pro-
tect the territory and to maintain the independence of
Turkey. The masses of the people have never deceived
themselves with regard to the object of the war—(hear)—
and, as to the accomplishment of that object, I must con-
fess that, before we entered into war, and up to the pre-
sent time, I have always thought it an object of very great
difficulty, and only to be attained by great efforts. I
have thought so, because, as every one may conceive,
Russia is enormously powerful, her population is ani-
mated and strengthened by repeated successes, and for
centuries past she has, by
treaties, been continually
adding something to her power. urkey, on the con-
trary, is a Power which has of late years been crippled and
wealoned--.-so much 80 itieed, that when the war began

fleet according to my instructions; but I said I thought
that, before the whole of these transactions were closed, it
would be very desirable to have security for the future by
an alliance between the three Powers. Count Bnol was of
opinion that it would be better to have an article in the
general treaty making Russia a party to that guarantee.
I was of a different opinion, but Count Buol maintained
his opinion, as I maintained mine. The day before I
left Vienna I was informed that Count Buol had come
to the opinion that he has suggested hero in his circu-
lar, that it was desirable that the three Powers should
enter into a united treaty of defence of Turkey, secur-
ing her independence and integrity. (Hear, hear.) It
was, of course, understood that Prussia might be a party to
that treaty, and that thereby greater security would be
obtained for the observance of that treaty. It appeared to
me that these two provisions did contain a security for
Turkey for the future. It appeared to me, if we had made
this arrangement with respect to the admission of ships of
war in the Black Sea, that Russia, so far from increasing
her fleet to its size before the commencement of the war,
would abstain from maintaining more than six ships of the
line, replacing them, if she thought proper, by larger and
stronger vessels, but not attempting to have a large fleet in
the Black Sea; for nothing could so tend to diminish the
opinion of the power of Russia in the East as the observa-
tion that other fleets, especially those of France and Great
Britain, were present in the Black Sea as a check and a
counterpoise to her fleet. On the other hand, the security
on the land side against the advances of Russia by armies
similar to those which advanced in 1828 and 1829 would
have been obtained by the general treaty, and by the
consciousness that Russia would have that, no sooner
did she attempt to do that which she has done within the
last two years and occupy the provinces of Turkey, than
such astep would ba equivalent to a declaration of war
against all the great powers of Europe. In this manner I
certainly thought that the Austrian plan of counterpoise
was inferior to the plan of limitation that we proposed,
yet it might boa mode of concluding the war with honour
to the Allied Powers, and that it would give—l will not
say a certainty—but a very fair prospect of the duration
of peace. (" Hear, hear," from Mr.. Gibson.) The right
hon. gentleman asks me whether I have changed that opin-
ion. Sir, I have not changed that opinion. I think that
those terms were calculated either, on the one side, to
secure Austria to us in the war, or, on the other, to ob-
tain a peace which, although it might be unpopular,
would have been a peace that would have afforded secu-
rity for the future. In making these propositions, the
Austrian Government declared that they were ready to
make them an ultimatum—that is to say, they were ready
to send this alternative to St. Petersburg—either that Russ
sia should consent to that plan of countrpoise that I have
described, or that she should consent to limit her naval
forces in the Black Sea to the number existing at the time
that these propositions were accepted. It was supposed that
Russia had no more than six sail of the line left, and, that
she would consent to a condition made with Turkey,
but inserted in a treaty made with all the Powers that
she would not increase her naval force beyond that
number. I have already stated that the Russian Min-
ister would not consent to the limitation, and that this
plan was at once refused. With respect to the other the
assent of Russia was more doubtful, but it was thought
that Russia might have agreed to that proposition. If
Russia refused both propositions the Austrian Minister
was to have orders to leave St. Petersburg in eight hours,
the military convention with France was to be signed, and
the Austrian army was to be concentrated and placed
in such a position that it could commence the war at any
moment. The Austrian Government did not promise
that an immediate declaration of war should be made,
but it declared that it would regard the rejection of its
proposition as a casus Belli. The Austrian Minister said
that it would bring on the war, and I have no doubt that
unless Russia had yielded at the last moment it would
have led to a war between Austria and Russia. Well, sir,
I have stated that there may be something in my own re-
collection of what took place which differs from that of
Count Buol, but I have no doubt that the statement of
Count Buol is in the main an accurate account of what I did
at Vienna. I said that I had no instructions that would
enable me to agree to such terms, and that the instructions
I had would lead me to suppose that such terms would not be
accepted ; but I said that my own opinion was that they
ought to be and might be accepted ; and I said to Count
Buol that I could assure him, and that he could convey that
assurance to the Emperor of Austria, that I would lay the
case before the Cabinet of this country, and that I would
use my best endeavours to put these propositions in such a
light that they might hope for their adoption. (Hear.)
That promise I certainly performed. I stated to my Go-
vernment every detail of the propositions of which I was
the bearer. I said that I had not the written propositions,
but that, if they should be considered fit to form a basis
for agreement, I had no doubt the Austrian Minister at
this Court would furnish all the details of the articles to
be proposed. I must say that the proposition was delibe-
rately considered by the Cabinet. Everything that I stated
had, I must say, due weight, and was fairly placed in op-
position to the disadvantages of such a peace. The Go-
vernment came to the conclusion that the peace proposed
would not be a safe peace, and that they could not recom-
mend its adoption. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman
says that he has heard from my right hon. friend the mem-
ber for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) that the French Govern-
ment were disposed to accept these terms, but that they
had been induced by the rejection of them by this Govern-
ment to refuse to accept them. M. Drouyn de I'Hnys ren-
dered a report to the Emperor of the French, stating the
advantage of the terms to be such as I have described;
but the Emperor would not accept his advice, and, before
he know the decision of the English Government, he deter-
mined to change his Minister and to reject the proposal of
Austria, as not affording a sufficient foundation fur peace.
Ere therefore refused to adopt the proposal. I am not going
to enter into the case of Austria, and how far it was a good
case or not. I have stated the case as fairly as I can, and
the house can judge for itself. The Austrian Government
then declared that they wore ready to carry into effect the
four points, but that they did not think the third point
admitted of only one solution, and that the two Govera-
meuts of France and Great Britain had sufficient security
on this point—that they wore ready to make a proposal to
Russia, but that since that proposal had been rejected by
the Allied Governments they no longer considered them-
selves bound to propose it, and that they were no longer
bound by the treaty of the 2il of December to go to war
with Russia. I believe in strictness those terms do admit
the construction that they are bound to go to war with
Russia. But the house will remember, when that treaty
was first mentioned, I rather opposed the general view
that Austria was bound at once to go to war with Russia
upon that treaty, and I said she was bound only to take
steps to carry into effect the four points. I think the two
Governments May call upon Austria to perform her engage-
ments ; but I think that, even if it is not a good case, and
even if it is not a sufficient case, for Austria, at least there
is much to be said in favour of the propositions which the
Austrian Ministers declared they were ready to make as an
ultimatum. (Hear.) Now, sir, the right hon. gentleman
asked a question, undoubtedly personal to myself, but
which he is fairly entitled to ask, and which I consider I
am bound to answer. The right honourable gentleman
now asks how, having had those opinions, if I had not
changed them—if I had not taken a totally altered view—
how could I remain in office in the present Administra-
tion ? (Hear.) I think in the first place that if I had left
office upon the decision of her Majesty's Government
which I have mentioned, I should not have been acting
consistently with that which I have repeatedly declared to
be the main guide of my conduct. In the last resort, when
it came to that great question of whether the proposal be-
fore us should be received or not, it was for the two Go-
vernments, and not for a plenipotentiary, to decide. And
if not for a plenipotentiary, neither was it for me to decide,
as having been employed in those negotiations, and as hav-
ing been a member of the Cabinet. But I must say that,
if I had thought that, having held that opinion, and being
overruled upon a question of such great importance, it was
my duty to tender my resignation to her Majesty, I con-
sider the circumstances of the time would have forbidden
my doing so. I must now refer to that which has taken
place since the commencement of this session, and which I
think must impress every man who takes part in public
affairs with very grave reflections. There have been several
changes since the commencement of this session. I myself
resigned my office at the commencement of this session,
upon the ground that I could not resist the appointment of
a committee of inquiry. A vote of this house induced
Lord Aberdeen and his colleagues generally to resign their
offices a few days afterwards. Lord Derby was called to
attend upon her Majesty, and he thought (I believe with
very sound judgment) that, unless he obtained the assist-
ance of some of Lord Aberdeen's colleagues— especially my
noble friend (Lord Palmerston) and the right hon. gentle-
man the member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Glad-
, stone)—he could not obey her Majesty's commands and
form a Government which promised stability. I found
myself 'unable to form a Government when it was proposed
to me. My noble friend (Lord Palmerston) formed a Govern-
ment, and he obtained the assistance of some of those col-
leagues of Lord Aberdeen to whom I have referred. But in
a few days they resigned office upon the ground, the very op-
posite of that whicl had taken, that the committee of in-
quiry, proposed by the hon. and learned member for
Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) was about to be granted. It
cannot be denied, sir, I think, that these circumstances
have given an appearance of instability to our councils—
an appearance of instability which ought above all things
to be avoided ; but, more than that, it was impossible for
me not to perceive, though at a distance, thetendency that
there was to cry down all authority, to distrust all persons
in whom the Administration might be placed. If there was
one man more than another whom the country thought
ought to be intrusted wilh the supreme place in the coun-
cils of the Sovereign it was my noble friend who is now
First Lord of the Treasury, and yet no sooner had that ap-
pointment taken place, and, as far as I can see, with no
other reason than that held a place of authority in her
Majesty's Councils, he became subject to the most violent
attacks and a very general endeavour was made to run
down his Administration and to deprive him of power.
(Hear, hear.) This was net the effect of the extreme vio-
lence of parties. Far from it. It would be wrong if I ac-
cused the great body of the Opposition of such conduct,
but it did show the tendency of the public mind—a
tendency much to be feared—to run down all authority, to
distrust all persons who might be the depositories of power,
and to give way to a restless desire for something different
without exactly knowing what.. Now, Sir, I did conceive
that in that state of the public mind, whatever might be
my sentiments as to a great question—and a very great
question it was—it was my duty to give every support to
my noble friend, and I am sure that if I had then left
office, though I might have promised him every support, it
would have increased that instability to which I have made
allusion—it would have been considered as a symptom and
precursor of other changes. I believe that, whether it regards
our popition abroad, or whether it regards our position at
home, it is the duty of the members of the Cabinet of my
noble friend to consider, as well as they are able, the position
of affairs; to make the best decisions which they can; for the
minority to yield to the majority, if there is a minority
or a majority; for an individual to defer iii9p;::barruulec
sen-
timents to those of the Cabinet in general ; and, to
believe
efbeneve
it to this house to decide whether or not ths
be trusted with the conduct of
oppfosumibtelilloisrcireaasifftosierrsh
ab
timeibm rarjete
that
atasyt,
that my noble friend and those who act
wiatdministrative
conducthom her Ma'
' we qualified to make those changes in our
affairs, to make those reforms which the
business may require as any set
may call to her councils. I believeite
11'. Ma eiYnn into
f to
llif
the :Lis:
persuasion will be fixed in theGl3o
ge Were to
would be a very great misfotrottusineohilan
take place, unless it were athe raen who
del
Will
given to them
power, they
are opposed to her Majest/c'r
think they will bo tho betsod every Su
ought to every
hey a , involvin h
Sup n h pp Rion gf
such great
con-
nfider!tc:etere
in the execution of their duty. I not say that these
internal
fat
eonnEd England in
aiinnttehne.
her inter
con-
se qu ees,affairs—importantbearn
go ars,
world, bearing IR
ave not
ante of her i ic
gear.)tut i n
have cost us many painful
reflections.,ve made the best decision which,
lights, 1 have bet
with my ested. able to make. That decision
ti
may be cont. t
taaY be said by many that I be-
Irneaedryeattao agree to these terms—not officially,
atwas recommendhaving
of my country when I told Count
them to the Government. It may be
Bbt
saidruua tyo ltetodhl
so declared my concurrence, I ought to
have persisted to the end, and to have resigned office im.