The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-26 00:00:00

CEYLON.

Lord HOTHA.M inquired whether the Secretary of
State for the Colonies would have any objection to lay
on the table the report of the proceedings of the
Finance Committee of the Executive Connell of
Ceylon 2_

Sir J. PAKINGTON said the report was now in the
Colonial-office, and he had no objection to its being
laid before the House.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS presented a petition from Lam-
beth, signed by 1,641 persons, in favour of Mr. Hume's
motion for Parliamentary reform.
Mr. HUME then rose to move for leave to bring in a Bil
to amend the national representation, by extending the
elective franchise in England and Wales, so that every man
of full age, and not subject to any mental or legal disability,
who shall have been the resident occupier of a house, or of
part of a house as a lodger, for twelve months, and shall
have been duly rated to the poor of that parish for that time,
shall be registered as an elector, and be entitled to vete for
a representative in Parliament. Also, by enacting that
votes shall be taken by ballot, that the duration of Per-
liments shall not exceed three years, and that the
proportion of representatives be made more consis-
tent with the amount of population and property.
He had been placed in considerable difficulty in bringing
forward motions fur reform, in consequence of many Hull
Members, who pretended to be reformers, objecting to vote
on any abetra.t questions. In order to overcome those diffi-
culties, he now proposed to submit to the House a definite
plan, and could not concur in any measure which would not
embrace the points included in his motion. He considered
it necessary to combine with the extension of the suffrage
protection to the voter, so that, if the right of voting should
be extended to him, he should be duly protected in the exer-
cise of that right; for, without such protection, it must be
evident that the vote would not be the vote of the indieidual,
but the vote of the party who might have power or influence
over him.—(Hear.) If such a fear was only visionary he
should be the last man to propose such a measure, but having
witnessed the painful consequences of the influence exercised
by men in power, and by masters over their workmen, he did
not think it possible that anything like a fair representation
of the people could take place without such protection being
afforded. The object of his motion was twofold. In the first
place, he wished to extend the right of voting, for it was
a right, and not a favour, or a privilege; and as it was de-
sirable that it should not rest with the voter himself to re-
gister his vote, he proposed to make it the duty of some
public officer to enrol every man who had been resident in ...
house, or a portion of a house, as a lodger. He wtaxa:_ P:l.,
nion that some of the most valuable and intelligens()
al,sl,'_'.',
the country were lodgers, and must continue to beon,y :vri.ye
Bill would contain a provision by which not )
householder resident for twelve months,
a I lei te pay all
an" .1d e
sident ~for the same period, and rated
laced on the regis-
the assessments to the parish, should be_ P
limit tue duration of
ter. Another object of the Bill was toot. a
long experience
but every lodger re-_
Parliaments. He had in the course of
conducted themselves at
observed how differently Membersu
dt the
t, electors
io
acnads embhi geeht shthnouui:
ht years, be thought the
of giving a member a
ranted
t for three years, in order that
the commencement and at shoes
trust should only be g end of a Parliament. Instead
possessran some check or control over his con-
it
wtßhahseiellas
complete. a p
Ist intentionally, or by mistake, fcrteit
~o
Hmuecdhid;
tmnoiglhitonboeutroaoblliettAlleeemrbetr: could objecto.
Pal objects
or
given. These
hwedreebst,.alefeelpyrinci
ion t a e a .ought forward an a
brought forward
the pledges hent
nehacdas
honis
street proposition.
year
of
theon thel
late
te subject,ur 01,,
e rlso because
buto
lan as could b
p'preeesseent circumstances of the country.
ebitnhretanttigmfihgreliyvna re
imagined,
e' o u l d htahvee pledge
anyfro
from the
Lit
introduced some plan which
would have been satisfactory to the country. But he
had been sadly disappointed, and the country had also been
disappointed; and he was sorry to say that, instead of ful-
filling their promises, the late Government were too ready to
recede from reform. One part of their late plan would cer-
tainly have effected an extension of the suffrage, but it
tbrai
ol Itost;
would not have been effectual, as it did not include the
e vleirey
onehad ore f recently received deputations from 145 dis-
tricts,
extension of whomthe
suffragesaidthey
without should
a r
moreegret to see anydie:
tribution of Members and protection to the electors. lie
was particularly anxious that the House should express
an opinion on the subject of reform, in conse-
quence of a declaration recently made by the Noble Lord
now at the head of the Government. Ile deeply regretted
the course taken by that Noble Lord, who was once such an
excellent Reformer. He considered the Noble Lord at i ne
time the best Church Reformer he had ever met with, for at
one fell swoop he levelled tea bishoprics. The Noble Lord,
after supporting Reform for nineteen years, was not only re-
ceding from his former principles, but abusing those who had
not changed their principles as he had done When he found
any man having recourse to abuse, and making use of nick-
names instead of resorting to reeson, it weakened his belief
in that man's intellects and his honesty.—(Bear, hear, ana
laughter.) The Noble Lord had done him and some of his
Honourable Friends near him a great i.justice by calling them
" demagogues." On looking into Johnson he found the
definition of a demagogue to be " the ringleader of a rabble."
He treated such an appellation with perfect contempt.
He had often been at the head of large numbers of psup;e
but never at the head uf a rabble, and never would be; ol;
the contrary, he lied done everything in his power to
pacify men who had sometimes met in great numbers
smarting under a sense of great injustice. His Honourable
Friends the Members for Manchester were in the same
category as himself, and no doubt would answer for them-
selves. For himself he would throw back th im
putation
N
im utatioi
y
on the Noble Lord, and say it was unworthy of him, whet,
alluding to the meeting in Cho-ham- place, to
sa that it was
attended by nothing but demagogues. He now wished par-
ticularly to direct the attention of the Right 'lmmure. ,lk
Gentleman opposite to some of the observations of the Noble
very alarming. The Noble Lord asked,
Lord, which were
" Will you 4uPPort 4 liGniCrUXV4t which will exert itself, I

b,lc, u 1 i i,, . 1.. ~altia , LIAI, i'..,11 i C1it....1 01 I ...A, C ii•l;*•,‘ u'naylo
encroaching democratic influence in this country Wilich
beut on throwing the whole authority of the country nollh-
fully into the hanos of the masses, practically into the bands
of demagogues and republican", who exercise an influznee
over those unthinking masses? Will you support a tic);
vt.roment which is determined to resist that clatig,,rous o'l
obnoxious influaice, to preserve the influence Sri
prerogative of the Crown, the rights of your Lord-
ships House, and the liberties of a freely-elected 11055
of Commons?" Nrw, how any man of coinoion Bel
could say the 'louse ot Cominues. was freely elected, tiet
rattly repres aced the opinion of the people, he a.pitr --,
imagine. The tact was the very reverse.' The Noble Lori
went on to say—" Tnese are the questions on which, wbes.if
go to the country to make my appeal on behalf 01 Inr" w .
ors t,
and my colleague,, I claim to use the words which the
teLn who stands in the prisoner's dock has a right to env
ploy, but which I do not deem unworthy of the First 111„ina.
Miter of the Crown of the first nation in the world, 813"11;
would t,ll the Noble Lord that he ( illr. Hume)
soy I elect to be tried by God and my countsy 4"-
Nvlio wished to put down the institutions of the count,lli
lie had too often stated the estimation in which he 13, a
those institutions, and was convinced that if properlY acted
upon they would carry out the gre .t object of good goveln:
What were
went-the happiness of the greatest number•
the institutions of which the country was so proud? First,
there was the Queen, the head of the Executive; then there
was the House of Lords, standing perhaps between til
impetuosity of the pore, and, it might be, throes tYvracnri..
ct the Crown. Ile considered that !Italy to be elga-a2ll-
- uot one
stuuted tor the benefit of the community at lar6e, —,,;clis
barrier against that hasty and incaisiderate I,gislation viPd' I
might be carried on by means ot popular agitation, but
not
a%•.iisshhedt to
oi infringe
cfroien figue eu then t privilegee,
and
aid not like to see them interfere with the Other legl';
ptheeermsetsoretehteairndielUistitrepariveileges;..
tive chamber. The House of Commons belong ed House
people, but he would ash= if there was one man in the ire-e f
who would say that. it was a lull sod fair rep
do
the macs ut the peo,rie? If nu man had the courage too
the law every man in this country eras entitled
that, tnen he would say let the $ ete be coudeamed• ):
but they were nut allowed to elect any persons but those P.hes.,
sensing landed estate& In Scotland, however, no such q5'.7
ficatioa was r '-
should not equi.ed, and he did hot see why the ra.e
551,,,ragdont•
be applied to the other parts of the -ao of
He complained of the interference of men of wer -
I' .ers, with the election of Members of H 0-
Cella
mons—he complained the House ,ere
that the mass of the comnatiniti ‘s he
not represented, and asked the House to remedy µt
tbose
present anomalous state of things, to remove
grounds of complaint which excited and
much etiseetisacti°ll
in the minds of the people Hs° "dered alit 5
e cons' to election,
very unjust attack had been mad.
wished to prevent any danger arisingdiscontect
the
which prevailed. Wise men ought fromt fet of Peeecese and
(11.111Alleb3 to remove the causes a in
nenieoets allc`"„„--al"
lead to danger. The country was now in such a 8-elle°ll
himself
Should O. 0
that no one knew when a storm might arise.
a feerieg arise as that which existed in 1842 and 1843, we.,„er
a million of artisans were out of employ meat, much strol%'.
claims would be brought forward, and the most serious Grey
sequences might ensue. He found that in 1792 ae
—um then Lord Gre, nut the presenr—(A:la' gb),, s et
theh ichmthusetLeesgtritsuland thoe who
andpe
ti
tio many
in tii
which
.
commissioned by the so-called Association ot the krieenliseens
the People, consisting of some of the Most distinguisheu t A
aabtuleremwenasi
returns, namely, an extension of the suffrage to •al .°.,,ea
Holders, limitation of Parliaments to three years, -ea
an alteration in the quelificatlen of Members. 113ZaPea-
titioners stated that at that day the House of tole
2,
su society,kea
to gtrooptr esbeeevhue
sr a!
of
intms did not fully and fairly represent the P thief
England in a manner consistently with whatel 'Wed
believed to be the rights of the people. They coined, and
that the electoral franchise was 60 unequally uistribute.scary
In so many instances ciminitted to bodies of men of very
uniteu number;, that the majority ot the House el: b "as
mows was elected be lees than i 5,000 electors. Now, sue
and
i the nature of the complaints that were made at that chlY'oeld
f Hon. Members would referto the debates they avid at
find that the very same objections which were alieg'e, eel'
that time against granting reform were those that wet` Taus
urged in certain quarters, and therefore he was very .nria
,ttiiaL the opinions of such men as the Duke of Richenou
,4,,,` be
Mr. Larebtou, which were there stated, should not he, Lae
overlooked, The Duke of hichumnd stated that one e' aid
sectuniee of the House or Commons was that it sheele
be a representative body freely chosen by the P :lee
themselves, independent of the Crown and Qt the erf, of
cracy, and au-tenable at short intervals to the judgMem" a
ete itli
the constituents. Mr. Lambton said: " The exaltir-f eett
situation of another kingdom are held out to deter aBb vie
unovations of any kind. We say that the reforms whicat to
have iu view are not innovations; cur intention is e to
destroy but to restore; not to displace but to reinstall ,ft
Constitution on its true basis sue legitimate grounds.'
(louse
another occasion the Earl of Chatham declared in the He
of Lords that what he meant by his advocacy of reform W'.7,
to infuse new life into the Constitution ; that his reasons
favour of Parliamentary reform were grounded on an °Peef
rience of twenty-six years, which, whether in or °llLthe
office, bad convinced him that the improvement ot see
House of Commons by the restoration ot the rights of tee
psople was the only remedy for that system of corrupti.....
which had brought the nation to disgrace and PoverY. i
(Hear.) In his (Mr. Hume'e) humble opinion the
.oFat'.
means of enabling this country to bear the conspesttritieue
which would curve upon it ere long from various qu
nra
Was by making that House fully and fairly to represeit;
cons
the mass ot the people, in order that the muuroe-
at large might acquire an interest in our national P
___
perity by having those rights given to them which
_were',
now withheld.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord late
the head of her Majesty's Government had 'stated
trip.
other night that he should continue to support thesaelta er
sion of the sufirage to all men who were Wore
_Jas
tit to exercise it. His (Mr. Hume's) answer at the
e de''
had been that he would not accept as a favour what 11 . ~.
mended as a right, because he considered it to be th_etirrewt
of every free born Englishman to be represented i . s°,
House, and he only drew the line of clistinOtiOn Wherilt,S
+absolutely- reqUlrol It. The Noble Lord had very ca_ alt.!.
admitted that no injurious results had followed from the.aro
forms which had already taken place, and that all neen.7(:r.
would give the question a moment's consideration nititSbte lit'
rive at the conclusion that those reforms had been o
ra_aa.
most advantage to the country during the extra°.
etif',4
changes that had been going on upon the
EnglandJa,'
Europe. He (Mr. Hume) did not believe thet e,d
would have remained quiet, or that the public peaciel.cffsa
have been maintained, if the state of the country „II sls_ the
such in 18-18 as the Noble Lord found it in 1831.
bvellit
contrary,' the changes introduced by the
Reform
Bill
dthat
his opinion, checked the lawless march of democracy---ae ,_.,„,
democratic progress could only be evil when it bearer
theirT"
less, since the people had as good a claim to seek fo
retted
rights as any other class of the community. Be reg
Out/
that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government sh
.i'•_'•_
have concluded his able speech on a recent occasion O,Y.s
saying that no progress could be made by the
cheese' P
towards obtaining their rights without danger to other_
and that he was not prepared to give the suffrage to every
man s,ho had a right to it, but only to those who were fl
to exercise it. He (Mr. Hume) would quote the woreis ''',.
a very high authority with respect to wha the rib
eery
n!
the people were. Btackstone said that upon the true th rY
and genuine principles of liberty every la-member of the cote"
munity, however poor, :heuld have a vote, and that every
man who was supposd to be a free agent ought to have a
voice in the election of the representatives ot the people.
Earl Grey and Lord John Russell ha, quoted that authority
iii IE3I, and it had received the support of several other
fistinguished names. It was upon such grounds that he
(Mr. Hume) asked the House to conceoe those rights. If t
sense of injustice existed, how could any man rest satisfied
while the injustice lasted; and he said that every eh!,
ought to be ready to extend what was just and fair to all
classes of the people, and thus prevent disaffection end dis-
content —(Hear, hear.) In the year LW, 3il .gembers!
fin-ming a majority in that House, were elected by
t,
1 49J
I m'ber.
electors, giving an average of 450 electors for ev: Y .
gisetrerea voters,
Thus, one-filth part of the whole of the t
hhenelreeei a majority in
amounting to 956,000 in number, nieiteo..t
a He would not
the House of Cummons.—(Hear, n
e lists w show the ine-
;rouble the House by referring to the
land,
Engue Would Say
quality Letween Scotlande n:ation did seem to him to be 0
unequal
that tee
end so state a the repterenst,
not only with regard to electors
inconsis
with respect to pro a
perty, that
and populaien, but antited, and he did in reat honourable
great injustice Was coni
the least de • t
Members, if to Was
had sire to carry out the
and to
• see ntry,the impediments
institutions of theta
tou
to its prosperity, loin in supporting his measure.
at a manuleeturin
There was n
;ea competitor, g country which was not
vying with -machines ' in order to obtain the
best cossi-le it produced.for t the
-" manufacture of
articles which,
the
ing inaceine or . country, through what. mac every a re-
mitted his contenbution to the general stuck; lin order
might be wisely that those drafts upon industry ''''l4 '---y seeseage dr
they ought to :have the best possible machines, accordthe to
the example of all het
other man f u actueers (Hear)—and t
~,,
could only be done by • • '
removing the prese,t inequalities. l'
awn were only given
their right-and t cted in the
exercise of those • e, were pro t the)?
rights he would venture to say that
would exercise them properly. The industrious classes WO
atenfold PrOpe ,• ' other
r . ion of taxation to that borne by the
classes of the
community, and, therefore, in order to reforml3.
that House,
try, so Se'
and to enable it to perform its duty to the con._
as to make the laws and taxation just and equiataanthee
they ought to give the people a share in electing lion-sir.
t __d.
independent,. Members. Would any man tell him Or_
flume), looking at the exposure which bad recentlytegen
place, and seeing a candidate become a Member Of that House
who had declared that, if he were put 013 a 9tn'
mittee of Inquiry, he would declare hiraself ill;
gaily elected, that the representation of the Peqz.
was, in any degree, fair or just? After the
that
posure of St.. Albans, and knowing as they did ~
s,
the same syetent existed in at least ninety other borougr.
he could not conceive how any one, having the slight presente
tence to be a reformer, could be satisfied with the i.
state of things.-- (Hear hear.) Unless they granted an, (3,,,e
tension of the suffrage they would leave on the minds of t',
people a conviction that they were unjustly treatede,rup:
when times of danger came they would not join ill th
oafish,
port of those institutions which they believed to be
_asa
and unless the ballot were also given there would be nob Ptrhue
Section for votens.—(Flear, hear.) Whatever 111'00104
result of the division that evening, he was firuilY 't: n of
that before long, when they came to revise the taxa,
; hicih° the
the country, anti to show the unjust position .n Iv a woe
industrious classes were placed, they would appear in
.. be
better state than that of sofs, and that then there woul.ao udo°
reason to regret: that more attempts had not been Maa
...113,
reform the House of Commons. As a friend to the .'
a to
to the Peers, and to the House of Commons, he desirat
0,
see all classes of this country participate in the beneefit.
_at'
reform. His wish was to remove injustice, and to pr 7.......L'
those evils which might arise in times of excitemerand
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) The lion. Member cona Ja4ned
oy moving fur leave to bring in the Bill of which fie
given notice. eel tO
Sir J. WALMSLEY. in seconding the motion, begg the
congratulate his Hon. Friend who had just sat dowu eu.
ese,
earnestness with which he had pursued his even- coi_ely
and on the evident progress which he had made, valve
in the country, but in that House—( Hear, hear) °ad
hundred and twenty Members of which had already
.I', eri`et
in favour of his motion. He (Sir J. Walmsley) dia•,,..
doubt that that number would very shortly be greatly 10.
creased, and he believed it to be merely a que,Aioisfccet,
lime—(Hear)—for the motion itself wes founded on ju
_i,,,
Time corrupt state of the representation had so frequeehlr,
been the subject ot discussion that it would eeem to
eh
....re
most unnecessary to offer a word in support of env ns ir.l',s_,
calculated to ausend or to mitie,ate the evis of such a.*;„
tern. Bet the course which had been pursuewel a
asiri
; etererce to that question, and the meaetneee Lars
had been recently introduced by the Is; ebl a alio
he Member for Londen, induced him (Sir .1°
those
Walttieley) to offer some observations as. to . _ the
ieterins which he believed to be earnestly desred iq
tro-
' Noble Lord in
great m ,jority of the people. When time No „wrn!'
uced his Bill, he (Sir J. eValnesley) had taken the.. hoe the
n%vents .ad
nits to state that he believed that it would ,"' e
support and confidence of the people. Subsequen.ee
was yerY
to some extent justified that observation, and D hod 1214 ill"
glad to find that the .Is.Toble L9td. himself had Wino

Tr r.v. .9; i .Ti TT,I,

other t.sfq 911cPvgted by the 1-I,lnourable M-n*cf, courl'A

. „ .
stand, anti he could never admit the principle ot abstract
righteo-(tliear, hear.) The seconder of the motion had ob-
served that he could mot comprehend on what principle
such and such things were 'permitted in' our Constitution.
Why, we-had not a cut and drieci Constitution-- (Hear, hear,)
-but we tried to perfect it -as much as we could, by means
of the existing machinery. Obey co Oil have genetal prin-
ciple., 11 -wever, althetigh not abstract rie,hts; and nne
general principle should to to trust in trio peaph,.-(Rear,
hear.) It might-be contended that, either from a want of
edunatiim, er.fron" their ehittingebeir residence from, plaCe
to place, or from other causes, portions of the community,
were unfit to exercise the-franchise; but it would be a mon-
strous thing to say that thete ought to be only a million
and a half of voters in the country.-(Hear,' hear.)
The people of Belgium strongly resembled oto- own in two,
essential particulars-in their conversance vuth
.municipal
government, end in their attachment to rel glut). 111 the
deep eeligieus tooth et thy' people of Belgium was found the
best seelfrity tee order and go,.d governinent.• He njoiced '
'that the present' , inceseion bad taken place at this nar-
tieuler moment, althouv,b, on the oilier hand, the, idea that
any Bill on t hie Aubjezt could be passed this session-was quite
out of the 'questa tte- ( Hear, heap) "In support of ttie...e
annual !melons of the Hon. Meonoer for M aor se he had
always declined cemmitting himselr to a p rticul r plan-
( Hear, hear).-wishing' rd. her to affirm' he geneial pr n-
iiiple-of reform; but be would vote for this or shy other
motion which was likely to lead to an extension .on the
franchise. He was ii ,w desirous that the.' Government would
state. not on y what they did not like in the shape of re-.
form, but what they did like, because a Government
mea-
sure might be cairied, whereas - tin independent motion
might fall to the ground. He rejoiced at a past declaration
of the • oble Lord the Member for the city of London ou the
subject of the franchise, but there was also the declaration
in the Speech from the Throne this session; that -the state of
the tepreem tetion was not satiefactory -(Hear, hear.) ' He..
did not think, in the teeth of sech declarations, that any
Government could long exist which oppesied what appeared
to be so essential a measure as reform in the Parliamentary"
representation, anti any Gevernmen. which might succeed
the present would, he thought, whether they liked'
it or not; be compelled to bring in such a measure.
If, at the next general election, the people pro-
nounced for such , reform, he did 'not des
pair. getting it
at the hands of Hon.' Gentlemen opposite. As yet we did
not know how the country would deat•witli the questions of
Meynooth,Protection,and Refortn.-[An Hon. llember-" Or
with anything eisel-aed, therefote, he still had hope in
the Hon. Gentlemen apposite. Without expressing any
opinion upon those other measures contemplated in the
speech of the Hon. Member for Montrose, he claimed to be
allowed a free judgment as to any particular scheme of re-
form; but he confessed he should be dissatisfied with any
... ,rt-tif no n fei to be interrogated, all :the _aavan- ILEA vvtifft/T,WitilgigkoVial-i. He weuldeerge. for the:
Lagee,of the rotten borough system would be reaped without the impossibiiity of carrying such a measure iVrrinii2i--
liament as was contemplated by the Hon. Member fo;
the disadvantages. Governments would te emancipated,
and the formation of administrations facilitated. . Ile con- Montrose, even were the first reading to be agreed on that
nieht, it was not his intention to record his vote either for
fessed, however, that if he followed the profession of aRe
or against the present'motien.
former, he sh, uldlike to reform the House of Lords-(Hear,
heir, from the Liberalts)-which he deemed the weakest part
tHi
roenly.
eaonndeuLr Learned
butne d I
a Gentlemanm airaid who jest seatofdotwhne
plreine-.
Mr. NAPIER-Sir, in much that has fallen from the
of the cOnstitulifineand the one which 'required the most
ttratheisf
attention.--(Hear.) The power of this House had increased,
was increasing. and ought to be diminished- (Hear, hear)- eiples he has advanced ate:strictly. followed out they must,
and he teamed tohteengthen the Lords to withstand i.- la the end, lead to universal suffrage -(Hear, hear.) Since
(Hear.) He particularly wished to put an :end to voting by I have had the honour of a seat in this House I nave had
proavo-(Hear.) Then, again, he thought that no nobleman an opportunity of hearing these questions discussed at great
should have hereditary right to the peerage unless ,the h length dwith
y aii - an great ability. I have heard them discussed
the means of supporting its dignity, .for-there could not be by the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London,and
(.greater misfortune in a country then a pauper nobility.- have felt'ahigh delight an 1 in h ' '
.1 peasure caring from him
(-Heat%) At the same time the Crown ought to have the those sountheonstitutienel expositions which have induceu
powsenie creating peers for' life, in order to raise to the him to vote against those motions of the Hon. Member 11
Upper House men who were likely to be useful there, Montrose, ane others stensta'ntially inthe - ')I. same category
although they might not have the means of transmitting the
. with them.-(Hear, hear ) .1 with agree the H. ,n. and
income necessary tor the maintenance of the dignity. - Learne '
d Gentlemen in hie strictures on the despotism which
Sir P. WOOD- said :if the Chancellor of the Exchequer prevails in some of the countries of the continent. I abhor
had sdtpfed the suggestion thrown out by the noble L-rcl 'rich despotism, and also the liceutieusness and anarchy
(Lord J ,Ruseell) of availing himself of Thursday nights which have takeu root elsewhere; mid I fully acquiesce
for the purposeod carrying on the business of the Govern- in the
,praise he has bestowed ou the British Cone
ment - that 'debt would not bare been censumed with this stitution for the admirable mennerdn which it adapts itself
discussion. st'a'r which, bewever (if the House were not to to the imperfections oh .mankind. But I think, Sir, there are
be engaged upon the supplies) he could scarcely conceive of other modes by which the franchise might be usefully ex.
any more important. Now, he contended that they-were 'ended than by so 'essentiel a change iu the principles iti
called upon to en er into the discusvitin Icy the declaratunn 'he • onetieution as is. now asked tor.--e Hear, •hear.) The
which had been delivered by the Noble Earl (Ear) Derby) in question to be considered is whether the particular mode pro-
snother place, that the principle of his Goverum nt would posed, of lowering the property qualification, is consistent
be to oppose a -barrier to the Power of demagogues, and with the principles of the Constitution, with the maiote-
upheld the Monareby agents, the d enocracy. New what did mince of the Monarchy, and with • the maintenance re that
the Nettle Lord mean by that? What did he niPart by so• hereititery raok which we find in our House ot Peers.-
contrasting the principles of. his Gevernment with those of ( lie r. hear ) I own it is a difficelt ques!ioo to deal eith ;
the Government he had succeeded? Had the late Govern- out Ido not agree with the Hon. aid Learned Gentle:nen
no at at all ado need demecraey tn a bad settee? Inc a boot : nat after the lon qualification of tile Reform Btll, the people
se se it meant insurrection. And there c,rtainly had beet. were ereclud-d taunt acquiring a further trite hise.-(Hear,
two feeble at
at insurrection in the country during neer.) He says" we ought to have confidence in the people;
the late Adininistration one in Ireland under ....r. S. see ought to rely upon their talents, industry, and virtue."
O'Brien, and the other in Eegland under-be would net si en anurecily every man by the exercise of such qualities
say whom.-(A laugh.) And both attempts had been pot may not wily acquire a franchise, but may assist in barna,-
down, one by the energy' of Led Clarendon, the other by •4-iing our tree and happy (Ittlistitutiare-( Hear, hear.) It
the vigilance of the late Home Secretary, sustained by the thessertect that in our constitution as it steeds there is mire.
good sense mid god feeling ,44. large masses ef (he peeve. e,e-ruption, and that i, muet be got rid of: If it, is to e go,
Democracy,was aezagats word, like " protectioe." (Liberal nd ~t, Ido not think it will be by these extravagant. Ina is
cheers.) , It might mean total exclusion of the mune,- h. these mete shifts and contrivances of the ballot .b .x, but
chical elm rat of-tha Conetitution, or it might mean merely throegh the tnedium of education.- Hear.) Secrecy is not
justice to the people., Now on the continent there weie cut) to the EnAlish cbaracter.-(Cheers.) A men may
two classes 'of governments- °mining
,cases .of military
.e dive his vote one way and pretend that he gave it another.
occupation, which, he did not call governments at
en...i, 1 prevent conflict with his landlord, a tenant might avail
, fi t rri,el fof the bell i••
Which these' opposing 'principles' were illustrate]. lii one o , but should we hence have a better
state of
class -in which was developed the high monarchical or des-
franchise thing? Again, do you think that. by lowering the
potic pi overlin Austria or Russia, for instance, en here.,,,, 3ou get into purer atmosphere?-(Hear, hear )
ditary seign, invested with an imaginary perfec ion, t-) lice, contrary, you multiply the power of those who tam-
carried on the Government with such small counsel as .
per wish the bad passions ot the people • and then, where
he chose to call to his assistance, with what was con- is your appeal to,
their confidence?-41,3er, hear.) I
ceived to be -a fostering and paternal hand, providing can understand a professional calling being a test of '
for the happiness of his people, who had nothing to do proerty, as also (as was thrown out in a previous de-
with the Goeernment but to obey, and were not allowed bats), an investment in a savings bank; but in that
to think for themeelves, lest they should discover the case it would pot be an abstract question whether there
ought to be an extension
imposture and...exercise their power-the policy pursuedension of. the franchise or not, be-
by the Governments of this class being that which was cause the franchise would be acquired by all: those whose
expressed in a single sentence once spoken by the Emperor lot
in ustry brought it within their grasp.--( Hear, hear.) That
Francis-" Ido not want learned men, but good subjects, some limitation is necessary is evident from the question
and any little unpleasantness that might arise being sup- frequently asked, whether ladies are to be excluded from the
pressed by military ,force. In the other class of Govern- franchise - (A. laugh)-but the main consideration is, should
ments,. to which our .own belonged, there was an hereditary we not derange the constitution by introducing a lower. IWO-
ualification ?-
sovereign, with a representative assembly and an upper netty q (Hear, hear.) I am not saying I
chamber, composed of persons, from their position, educe- should be averse to an•adjufstment of the constitution; but
Lion:, and property, . best suited for that dignity; andthe 1. dosay, that. by. lowering the property qualification you
bulk of the people, instead' of being prevented from thinking wouldea extend the influence and the power of corruption-
or acting for themselves, were encouraged and- trained to 1-i r, hear)-and that you could not check that corruption
do'so by the municipal and parochial systems on which they by resorting to secret voting.---(Hear, hear)) . I say, let the
had to regulate their local affairs; and thus they were eau- 9seaereise ofd the franchise be open and independent-(Elear,
d for the more important duty of choosing those Whe h lassert, linen
rated : qualification
you do not
shOuld represent them in the Legislature. Now, the prim.- .._ , ~... place the intelligence of the country
plc of the former of these cl3s'es of governments he consi- • u
1 a him position, but swamp it by.mere numbers-that you
tiered the ptinciple of fear; that of the latter econfileuce.- t
pheiapotir
wield
into the hands of designing persons, and permit
(Cheers front the Liberals.) And. on the principle of confi- them ield it to the peril of those instittitious and of that
monarchy, which 1 - •
' the -peoPle• he advocated the enlargement of the trust will ever be bound up with the •
dance in
franchise• He believed that it would be found soon by all peeee and prosperity of this country.-(Cheers.)
nations that. - there-was • •no basis on which Governments • `ll.- In EBUCK said that whilst he, adopted the pre-
could rest except- that •of confidence in the peeple.-- mites and
_conclusion of the argument of his Hon. and
(Hear, hear.)___ Not merely in ,their affections, which learnedeoh _ Friend .the ..late Solicitor-General. (Sir. W. P.
might be influenced by passions and impulses, but in theie '.4Y,
_Qt.), L
-..e was altogether at a loss to account for his deter-
educations-their, power tink tg
of hi iv and actin, mination not to vote upon this eueetion, the lion. and
political ' Learned G -
judging for themselves.and their appreciation of thoseentleinan having admitted that the subject ought
and to be t •
high moral and intellectual qualifications which.ought to
s.. _ ethertainee, and that this was the proper time for con
tits man for taking-a pare in the government of the nation. lo
0_ eright. Twenty seas had. elapsed between the passing
Now, did the Noble Lard (Derby) mean to depart from this . the first Refotin 'Bill and the proposel of the second of
• ' l or to maintain that it ought not to be extended? the Noble Lord' the' alember for London. At the former
princip.e,
rt t .• nof aovernuieut- Period the country was governed by an oligarchy-
Were we to have that mos mons rous .ort . .
i.
of be used the '
an oligarchical 'de . cieracy, under which one wheal out , t word as more significant than ar-
1' fled inen• alone had votes? Such as, stem would T ocracy-bgt under •the reforming band of the Noble
five mil to
I want of confidence in the people; and no Go- Lord, that power had undergone a very great change. The
show a tota 1 , commit landed interest
,nt could stand malty months which shun , . . . was no longer the predominant interest
vtheerniEnnoeet ta•al error committed by one of the greatest men in this country, for by the , Refcrm Bill of 1832 a
who ever held pawer-that in ate grin„ was himself against a re- large portiere of, the manufacturing wealth of. this country
f tie representation of the people. Our whole career wvais admitted to the representation: But the Noble Lord
form o
n f piogret,s i aod were we to stand still ere, end • 1- t y found that he had- no, done enough by his first
'hveatlealeoi°le? Tile arll- Member I.'''. SarreY said the sop- Betorin iii,i-t hat it Was nth. OnflUent tai dieplacn an oh.
f extension uf the suffrage wete 'obliged to admit Irchy--but. that thee were. thousands in, this country
porters it e
danger in it and that the only resource was w losintelligence nod morality-not their lands or the
that there wasdisposition ett the 'people. But were peop e power-derived loom.wealth-demended consideration at the
in the germ
tba' pale of the .Constitution than hand.s of the State. Supposing that to be the opinion of
more.i withindurgiterpoueNetv,,
the Ilieteureble Gentlemen's illus the Noble Led, be (Mr. Rudick) would say that %abet Ives
would have been m tie vaunted was a body of men who represented, first the intelli-
wiria.X,n of the starving aeitnale
before ' reform or repeal gence, an next the good feeling of the country Did any-
ap applicable some yeare ego,
of the .cern laws, as during the disastrous scarcity of hotly pretend to say that the intelligence of the country was
• 1847 when bread, now to be wielded by' those who' possessed land-by those whom the
1817, or more recently m . able Noble Lord
had ton ed. Was -sold fa- lid ;and when be was(Russell) had represented as the "clay inte-
the peoote "It is the hand of Gd, and you mint
rest?" It certainly was not land_ that represented the Intel-
to tell
bear it patiently," which he could not have said had tne crn- hgence of the peepie-
laws not, been repealed. With regent n, the ballot, tilt he An Hon MEldnEn —As much as any other portion of the
need say was the:, Ilk con.tituents wanted it, and that, he cemmunity.-(Elear, hear.)
had voted foe it, and should do so again. It wa3 is
Mr.SRUEBUCK con, inuing I am sure this interruption
said to those who outlawed the extension of the renreeet,- must. come from a persoit representing land, but I still deny
tallies system, .6 Look at France!" tie lied looked at France,
that t, te represeutatives of land interpret the; intelligence of
and considered that the lesson to be-derived from tae e.t.a. the citatory.men hem he ( Mr. Roebuck) would en.
mities of that country was to avoid the errors which had oe.. franthise were those whwcombined whet was called manual
caoned them.. Up to the revoitition of 1786 the Gevern- and intellectual labour-instructed artisees; who, although
merite of France ha , been of tbee despotic or pate nal cha possessed neither wealth nor power, fulfilled -all the condi.
ratter he had described • the people had no psliocai instruc-
tion 1 ti ms of paid citizens. It Was these very men who were ex-
fitting t hem for the functions o' gime nment, or the ex. eluded fom al voise in the gitverntnent of the country. , He
ercise in the franchise O the nobility were exempted from tex- confessed he did not understand the doctrine id abstract
anion under which the massee ot the .community were op- right.--(Hear, hearer He'did not know what it meant to
pre and there arose at last a tremendous insurrection, see, _hat a man had a right to be represented, but of this
?silica which the boutel Thi 'had 'been in a constind state of cbn- he was ceri air, that, unless the intellectual classes were
(ARIA Philippe the principle of conk- repiesented..there could. be no good government. For
fusion.
Even tin ant- i
le had not been acted upon ; the couetry ttie object is good government Those . persons ought to
the peop
oence in _
t. _
.Paris' by ceders sent down to the ne adopted into the constituency. He Would show the
was ruled rum
3 revolution, which bed House they were instructed, they were moral ; and lie
prefects. : Under the last portentou ,
pre • his would then ask who would refuse to recognise their claims?
'he was oing to say •
placed the . President, on- g . : . i Be.was talking ot instructed artisans. A man of that
universe .
throne .there was to be general voting or
t' held. class did not live in a 11)1. house; he lived in lodgings.
tinffra,,,,e ; there had nut been a single public
.mee meeting
th c This would be found to be the case in London and the great
Conceiveof such a change in this.coontry withitut a• pui 1
manufacturii g cities. He wanted such a man to be a con-
meeting to conehler it. ..The fact was, however, the people of
rtu n lie did not o ant him to be a constituent because
.s 1 e
.c. . _
France had not been taught how to exercise political power,
the man would agree with Lim.-it was ten to one he would
and had never known what it was to bow to a menwity- ,
h. .
net-bat he wanted him 'to be a constituent, first, because he
(Hear, h . ' '
, ear)-so that dminority found no better resource was who, by hie honest industry, hadgained lc
is own
than tak*laughter.) This, a . .
mg up 'arias.-( Heir hear and , next, because.he was an instructed man; and,
then, W. 19 the ex ' - ' deter ua Iran_ Positieni
rile pointed to in order to.
me to third, because he was a Moral man. , On account of these
extending the fraanin
us to do so. IL proved I Why, it was rather a
warn- three qualities,: be placed him on a line with any other class
e how unsafe it was to attempt to ex- , . and he said such a man as he had described
dude large classes of the c inutry •
And la ' '
such a course wag at viLT
ple from the representation.
was as worthy to be a constituent as ,any Hon. Member in
Constitution. 'The Relat;inne(l3ripti, and likely to destroy, our
that House was to be a 41ember. Where was the man to tell-
Constitution.
the Constitution, and had it heal removed gross abuses
h,
he Wall noq-e(llear, neer.) Was be to be told by the
had it not done- so some of improved its machinery; and_
Lim
ssor of thousands of acres that they who made alt that
would have been '. awept away by
amost ancient landmarks Passe a ishes England' from every other country in the
was said " All is now quiet and calm.Pehtar convulsion. It. '
distie-e they were not to be deemed worthy of sending a
lion of the representation?" Why ; because raiseii the quese world, that.
Ve townst House? Representatives of lend were
the proper period ta do so; and at no other time
eat was just representeta h t
not land - to, be found in other coun-
it be demanded-
so safely considered. It was a fatal error to withh7lndteli demanded-but of wealth were admitted, but was
eancipation, until the Government which coneeth,thd.olic tries? Re
foundeE in , other countries? But that, which was
bad to confess that they. did so from fear of the con it
.not wealth . , , _
her country in the world except.
se- not to be found la any o.
ces of longer refusing it; and such would have - America-thatbody f a trained to eedure labels, one-
quen - ome mischief iu their hands,
`been the result Of a longer refusal of reform. The Coustitu- client to the law with all the power of
tine ought. to be allowed to go. otn, and expand, and develops and yet obe •ing law ineplicitly-were they to be excluded?
itself: wherever there was lfe there must be progress. It was those 3 persons he i-low pined before that house; he.
desire
had recently saidthey did not constant thlt d H glit not to be repr se
Some persons ae oa. Members whether they ou s
result of the action
changes. But change was the natural
__
had
a living principle in a' state. What changes occurred country from all countries, by the present law-by no inten- •
within the last twelitY Years-in everything except the re- tion on the part of the Legis(ature, or on the part of those
presentative system! The commerce of th
dcountry had who enemosed the law-but by •accident-thie class was
been inordinately developed-(lear, hear),-.-an so had ma- excluded from the rePresentation of the country, and,he was i
nufactureS.-(1-leare)- ,Whole towns had risen up; and to , rebtegoatig; too Inc be asking- thellouse •to'bring theta within
1 re urne epresenta oes to that
one of the-e Birk-ahead), which had not been in existence I the roll of those 'who •t d R brit;,
at the time of the Reform Bill,. inwas propesed tey the lite House. .He had heard a great talk of .demeracy, and
Goverunmet to-extend the franchise, of .which St. Alban'a the dangers of democracy. .He had heard the ,Noble
was to be depriied.. Railways,•again, had everywhere given Lord'e(Lord John Russell) answer the oth •ni ht to the
rise to new towns along their lines. 'And it was not ouly in statetnent made by the Noble Lord at the er g __
'b
' head ot the tio-
mat material development ;that changes had occurred, but moral veratnent: that answer had not quite satisfied him.
and intellectual eelacaeich had greatly advaececl; and the Da ,cremes, as he t biro understood the '
National Society, wnish some years age.. lied only
.400,000 ectruvalent, if he might use the Letin phrese t ntpeun' .was
scholahs, now had upwards of 1,00000. The increase of oPposeil to . plebs' He did not want pl,bs to' •vo -a-
dug
heas
savings banks and mechanics' iesntutea led to the same cone. did not want aristocracy he did.not want an yee7tirnon as
1
elusion. Why,. then, was everything to pi og,ess except the people to govsra ehe wanted:the populus, which a ecrtelde
representative sYstem? ' Atathe time of the Chartist attempt more to our word" nation"-he wanted the nation tonr ti
be knew a body of workmeri engaged ;about that House, itself.--e( Beer, hear.) As for the Noble Lord at the heetivderi f
although they had.-promised to defend it, had declined to the Governnient Comte-2. tOrward and saying he was ' • oppos-d
he sworn, not choosing, as they ssid, to act against their to Democracy, what die lie mean? Did he mean that i'l this
" order"--an ominous and remarkable expression. And count 9'' the artisans had what were called COnnounist pr*
what made them an "order?" Orde, exclusion front the ciples? Not. at ,laall.-(Har he .r.) The naoment a -mien;
franchise•-( Hear, hear.) Give th m the franchise, nd they gained an by his own b, he might be depended
would be transfused nito the rest of the community. The upon to defend the sacredness of property might
hear)-he.
Hoe. Member for Surrey had derided the 10/. er n/• qualie would be rue man to come forward and say, "This is mine-
fibatioos for voting, as having rio principle in them The it is the result of my own honest labour and of my own intel-
principle, however, -was , not in the exact sum chosen. but lest.(Henr, hear ) You will find no thimmunist p
in the ehoOsing of any= sum as a test ; and the 40s. free-. plea received among the artisene of this country.-(Llear,
hold test was almost as old as Parliament itself. At the , hear.) As for the ignorant and benighted labourers of the
same time. he should have .ne 9h.lectitm to some of the 1 agricultural claseee, he (Mx. Roebuck) did not knew what

ever
tion, he (uir J. Via,t.isle) ) recainitten oho to teke
into his serious consideration that part of Parliamentary ro •
form which he had left out of his Bill—a part which, in his
(Sir J. Waltnslev's) opinion, was most important, as any
measure that did not include the protection of the ballot
Would, as far as he could judge. be lightly esteemed by the
People of this country. His first objection to the meastve
of the- Noble Lord was founSed on the.disparny between
the borough and the county franchise. No goood reason
had been alleged, nor did he think that any could
be alleged, why the franchise should be 51 in a borough and
.201. in a county,sand unless Hen. Gentlemen. were (imposed
to admit that the inhabitants of rural districts were less qua-
lified tor the exercise of political rightsthan those of boroughs,
he did trust that they would press torward for an equal mea-
sure of justice for the agricultural as for the manufacturing
districts. The proposition to enfranchise by means or the
403. direct taxation appeared to him to be a step in the right
direction, inasmuch as it recognised taxati ,n to 5e the basis
of representation— ( Heer, hear)—and he trusted that that
principle would be further carried out. But he could not
look upon another , ertion of the Bill with the same favour-
able view. He conceived that the retention of the rate-
paying claws for the qualification of the voter was ‘n un-
mitigated evil, and he thought that the Ho ise would allow
that such a measure as the ratepaying clause had been a
fruitful BOUM° of litigation, chicanery. and fraud, and
that it had been an unnecessary restriction to the right of
voting-(Hear, hear.) It might not be necessary to
increase the number of Members for large towns,
but he could not conceive how the Noble Lord
could. justify the retention of two Members to a small
and insignificant borough, while he refused a Memher to
large, populous, arid important districts. Another feature
of that Bill to which he (Sir J. Walmsley) objected was,
that -it did not remove nominati el boroughs, which were a ,
crying evil.—( Bear, bear.) In his opinion, the interes of
agriculture, commerce, and manufactures we-e
i entical, and
d
upon this broad view of the question aught the electoral
power to be based. He had reterrsd on a former occa-ion to
the numerous demands which had been made by the people
at various periods for enfranchsement. and he ha
of td pointedend
cut cut the acknowledged loyalty and intelligence e
franchised claeses as evidences of their fitness for the exercise
sof political rights. He had also adverted to the patience
and forbearance which had been shown by the people under
what he conceived to be very unnecessary and unjust
treatment, and subsequent thought had convinced him
that reason united with justice in demanding a recon-
_ struction of the electoral system. So far from perceiving
any cause for apprehension in extending the. basis of the
representation, he was persuaded that that was the only.
course by which they could remove the existing causes of
discontent, and the only means by which any Government
could ever obtain the 11111 confidence of the people.—( Hear,
hear.) Twenty years had elapsed since the Reform Bill
• WiLa iptroduced , and, with all its defects, there could beyno _
u WA. ,U 0
removed many flagrant abuses. While , however, ha
fully acknowledged the benefits of that Bill, he could not
shut his eyes to its defects. The evils of the nomination
boroughs were only very partially removed. It was true
that fifty-six rotten boroughs were placed in Schedule A,
but nearly an equal number were retained as a sop to the
oligarchical party; sued, altogether the Reform Bill of 1833
Was one of the most aristocratic measures offered to the
nation. The effects of the Chandos clause, in involving
the occupiers of the soil in a political serfdom,
deaf re-
alone, old. . There were 850,060 houses iu England an als
a ',arise occupants, although assessed . at between
101, and 501. annual value, were totally excluded from
any share in the representation. Surely,
then, they might
fault' ask for a revision of the system which twenty years'
experience had shown to be so ineffective populationclared
.object. Within the last twenty years the lof the
country bad considerably increased, its commerce had ex-
panded, popular intelligence had been more widely diffused,
and our national literature had progressed. But, in broad
, contrast with all this, there had been no advance and no
improvement in our representative institutions Five-sixths
of the adult male population of these realms continued to be,
excluded from all voicfeither in ti analog the laws they had
to obey or in the distribution of the funds of which they
up had
to contribute so large a proportion. A paper oe
the table of the House two sessions ago, stating the number
of electors in the United Kingdom to be 1,050,157 ; beingl
in 30 of the population, or lin . of the adult males. That
gave an average of 1,601) vo' es to each of the 656 Mem-
bers of that House—he said votes rather th anotes electunors,
because many electors had a plurality of v-
der different qualifications, and it was supposed that
the total number of electors did uot excet d three-quarters of
a million. Thus upwards ot six millions of the adult mile
population by the existing system were kept without the pile
of the Constitution ; and there was a grievous and unjust
Monopoly of electoral power in the exclusive hands of a
comparatively small minority of the nation He had said
that the total number of the electo s would give an aver-
age of l,eoo to each member of that Heine ; but the real
fact was that 322 Members, or a clear rnijority, only
represented 430 electors each, whilst the minority re-
presented 2,729 electors each. • Caine with 153 electors
had the same power as Stockport' with 2,400 ; and Man-
chester with 12,000 electors; or Marylebone with 18,0 0,
had no more weight in that House than Thetford with
210 electors, or Knaresborough with 230. Tbnfluence ese facts suffie
-
ciently demonstrated the way in which the i of th
larger boroughs could be neutralise marshallin
that
g the
power of the smaller ones against themd by.
He had said
our representative system had made no advance, but he
believed it had actually retrograded; 184 of our constituen •
ties had a less number of electors now than they had at
former periods. If be were told that the gross number of
electors had increased, he would reply that the increase had
taken place in counties where extraordinary exertions had
been made for special objects, and in the boroughs which
were included in those counties; and that the register for
the English counties showed a decrease of 13,600 electors in
the year 1849-50, as compared with the numbers in 146-7
on
It was said that electoral power ought not to be based
mere numbers; but in truth at present it was neither based
on numbers nor on property, nor on numbers and property
• combined and indeed he could not tell upon what it was
-- based. The statistics given by Mr. Alexander Mackay, in
his pamphlet on Parliamentary Reform, and which he had
never heard controverted, showed that in the year 1841 the
total amount of the poor-rate assessment of the country was
85 millions; and of that sum be steted that 7 millions were
represented in that House by 329 Members, and the remain-
ing 78 millions by 329 Members. What was the practical
tendency of such a system? To render that House subser-
vient to the territorial aristocracy, and, instead •of a real
representation of the people, to make- it a representation of
the peerage, the army, the navy, the Church, and the Cos
'vernment. The taxation of the country was levied unequally,
and tended to restrict the expansion of trade and commerce.
Wherever a barren rock was to be found among our colonial
possessions, a governor, lieutenant-governor, and a costly
staff of useless officials were saddled upon the public purse;
pensions and sinecures were distributed with an unsparing
hand; and a system of Church patronage was administered,
as injurious, he believed, to religion as it was offensive to
the consciences of a large portion of the people. To remedy
these evils—moral, political, and financial—his Honourable
Friend (litr. Hume) had brought forward this measure of
Parliamentary Reform ; and, believing it to be safe, practi-
cable, and constitutional, he should give the motion his
humble but earnest support. There might be those who ap-
prehended dangers and difficulties from a measure which
Sought to add five or six millions of the adult male popula-
tion to the electoral registry of the United Kingdom ; b it
e for his part-he saw no such dangers, . nor apprehended any
such difficulties. There was indeed a danger; but it arose
from a very different source—from the refusal to do justice
to men who not only knew their rights. but knew their
Power to enforce them The present motion only aimed at
correcting abuses whicb time and a vicious system had pro-
, dueed ; and the present period of comparative pros-
Parity and domestic tranquillity appeared to him eminently
calculated for the calm consideration and settlement
of this important question. The only sounds .that they
now heard of the i• justice under which the pa ple
laboured, or believed they laboured, were those of calm re-
monstrance and enlightened reason; but none might venture
to predict how long such a tweet able state • f thicgs
might
continue. The burdens which tee people now bore might
soon become insupportable; the evils that they new endured
might ere long assume en aspect which might drive the
masses to desperation, and they might approach that House
in a temper which all must deprecate but none would be able
to resist. 'Should such a time ever arise— which he pray
the wisdom, of that Howe to avert—then they would see
when too lets the political folly of treating with contumely
the just demand -of millions of their fellow-subjects. By
timely concession to that just demand they would strengthen
the guarantees for public order and popular content, because
the taxes would then be imp os d and the laws made with
the concurrence and c,o;leutof
Mr. H. DRUmmOND said the excuse urged by the two
Hon. Gentlemen who had preceded him for bringing fie ward
the present question was that the country was in a state of
comparative tranquillity. Hon. Gentlemen were anxious to
send the Members o( that House b:ck to their constituents,
and yet they occupied a whole nigut in diacussin a measure
which could not possibly be passed, No g .
less than six gentles
men had brought forward measures for imPeeving toe repre-
sentation, but he trusted, coming hi that shape,
the Gosen-
repudiatecom i t. committed
tr it would not fall into the. rror that had been,
differed from all others that ke• its predecessors. but that they would at
cted
; but
The present measure
eon con-
tained no principle.. The Noble Lord in •his Bill c
the light of voting with a beneficial interest of 10/.
there WAS no more connexion between the right of voting
and 10e than there was between the right of_ voting and 91.
was
.atr.getsvheirthabirseugrda,dathed
tthhee
einxe,ar:
. 193. 6d. The system
sure contained no real pencip
he
laid this down_ sei- a rule,
s Lisa of the elective franchise,
' das the only essential rule, that the exercise
an
of the franchise should be co-extensive with di-
e. rect service to the State. He
would include all
those classes whose pockets the Chancellor of the Exchequer
could reach, all those whom the rate-collector called upon—
' and he would go further and say where a man was too poor
to tempt the rateecollector or the Chancellor of. the Exche-
.• quer, if he had rendered service to the state—as, for instance,
a soldier after his discharge, or a militia-man, he should sa y
Hear.
)
he waaentitled to exercise ,the right of voting. (
One point had had an adventitious "importance conferred
upon it, although it had really nothing to do with the
clues-
. tion—he meant the bal'ot. What could it possibly signify
' to them how the electors voted, whether secretly or openly,
whether standing upon one leg, or upon both ?—(A laugh.)
It seemed to him that that was a question that might be
fairly left to the constituents. He had himself special rea-
sons for preferring the vote by ballot, but he. would not
now enter upon that question. But they must bear in
s mind that when they, added to the electois, as was pro-
Posed by the present measure, they did not add a similar
to a similar thing. It was' not the mere addi ion of electors
' of the same kind, but electors of a very different kind.
He would give an illustration of . what he
lie meanft.
be
:would take the case of the savielgs banks.found by
a return which hi held in his hand that out of 1,000,00,1
' contributors in the savings banks there were only 2.000 who
possessed 2001. and upwards, while there were no less than
677,000 who possessed less than 201. Let them take that as
• a guide or an illustration. In point of fact, who they had
extended the franchise as far as they proposed they would
represent the poverty of the country, and the wealth would
not be fairly represented, bat actually overborne. Ile had
heard other Hon. Members talk of education as the basis
of representetion, but .he could not sea any connexion be-
tween reading, writing, and arithmetic, and the ebctive
franchise. Tice argument, however, showed that they had
• considered the danger of extending the franchise, and try-
ing, by indirect means, to correct the evil. Sluch
of had been
• said of the good old times and of the precticethe Con-
.. stitution--the practice of that House formerly
certa wag
m that no
• one should sit in it unkss he possessed a aount
in land. Land was formerly the only means of possessing
property—trade ben g confined to the Jews, and after-
wards to the Lombardi and the Fleming& Now,
however, things were totally changed—the essential' was
property, the accident was lawn When. the Honour.
able Gentleman brought forward a measure to do away
with the property qttalification one of his arguer me
Was that that House did not regard the sanctity of their
oaths. Thatwas, he thought, a bad syetem.— ( Hear, hear.)
They encouraged the violation of oaths—they encouraged
juries to break their oaths, and to find men not guilty be-
CAW they disapproved of their offeucee being visited with

such as had been appoi,:teci in the ces, St. A ba,t,
eloction. If they had .a standing .Commission he thought
they would soon find out .what Geutlemen were without the,'
necessary property qualification. Let there. be. .a go,:d
Chancery lawyer and a good common-law lawyer ol the
Cominission; and he was bound to 'pay that would make the
Gawniscion effective. If they ha& not that eqaality of ~pro- •
pory !hey would have eqirdity of power, rim; that vra3 as
good. Where there were two animas. one of whom had got
something ,whieh the tither had not, they might deriend upon
it there would be a battle.—(A laugh.) If here werertwo.,
men, the one rich and.the other poor, unless the rich man bad
something to defend him which the.other hid not, there
would be free trade between them prettyquickly —(A laugh.)
They must combine property and power together, for
ctci-
Heal socie y was, constituted on
.the principle of. preserg
:acquired property. What they were to provide against
was not peaceable times. A ship w,is worth nothing that
cod d nolv sa Ihe 11, water: They mu-it have a 001,511.
tutiou that would stand the storms. always hart
been, and there ever would be, 'times when mas,e4' of
starving people Were to-he found, and tbey might depend
on it the severeSt 'moral •anguish any man could endure
was seeing his children starving and himself willim; to work
and unable to oboaie it. They_ might rest assured that toe
suffe, ings of would not be les kern if inflicted by
a constitutional goveroinent t an .hy a Floreni hie desp it.
The interests of the-latided and the other classes were arnat•
gamating every day. For his part he desired to see the
great estates and properties Stihilivided, and the number of
small proprietbrs increased There was inherent in the
nature of things something mote permanent in land then
in manufactures, -Take the ease of a labourer—no m tter
whether he earned five. shillings or five guineas a week,
h had no regard for- anything beyond the ena of
the week—he eat and he, drank the whole of it,
.and there was. an end of the matter.—(Laughter.)
The manufacturers only looked to. their temporary profit ;
but landed proprietors tooked to the permanent val.,e of
their property, and were con inuelly laying out something to
make that value 'greater—( Hear, hear, and " Oh" from th,
OppOsition ) —'though-no dbubt'thei e were exceptions --( Hee,
and a laugh, from the Opposition.) There was, at all events,
this advantage attached to the system of rotten' boroughs,
that they facilitated the return of persons to that House
when it was 'advantageous to have them.—(Bear, hear.)
The Noble Lord lately at the head of the Government had
recently been reproached with the basis ,of his Administra-
tion, and with some truth. But until Hon. Members had to
form a Goverianient they would not know 'the difficulty of
doing so, for it was not enough to find the best man for an
office, but whether some "enlightened" constituency did
tot prefer some empty chatterer. (Hear, and a laugh.) He
howti:ver did not want them to recur to the •' rotten
borough" system, but to suggest that if Ministers, as the
servants of the public, were expected to come ex officio to

they might receive, for fhv o-vccre not educated—their edu-
„,,, .1- , •-•'• tof

facturing Lewes, you would find the artisan, who was the ,
maeefacturer and artisan of his own fortune, would be the !
first to oppose himself to anything like Communist doc-
trins—(tlear)—ar.d if a man could be depended upon he l
could, for the maiatenance of what was called the sacred-
ness of property.--. Ilear, hear.) Then, where was the
objeetio.l to this man? What were the uppesers of the mo-
tion atreiel Hear, hear) .'There
.might he a, sort of
personal antipathy to coming in near contact w lh men evno
had not hitherto had power; but when we came fairly to
eiscu-,s what Was wanted in a constituent Lindy, what was
there in the proposal that should , excite Menu? '1 tie real
proposition was—as for. the ballot and the other points, they
were as dust in the balance as compared to this—
that " every man of full age and not iubjec.. to any mentel
or legal disability" (but it did not rest there, or it would
he,unirersel euffrege), "who shall have been the .resident
occupier of a house or ~pert of a house fie- twelve months,
and rated le the poor of that parish for, that tim..' ehould
be registered as an elector. If it ceuld be wade out
that the coeetituency proposed .could, lead to ; mischief,
ihere wont' be on end of toe case ; but w hat was there
in this to excite alarm ? True, there was a vagibond popu-
lation in every great coinumenY and labourers who were
Ovine, by their labour Item. day to day', and. .
/fleeing about; but they were not iriclueetl, in this prupeei-
time Where was the danger of giving a vote totole reeideet
ioepayer ?—( Ideate:hear.) It would be said, e Oh, but he I
must Itaire ali 1. house." The Noble Lord', (Lord J. Rue-
sell's) Reform Bill brought it down. to 5i.; there were very
few houees under 5/. His. (Mr. R ,ebueles) term labourere, i •
at Os a week, paid 51. a year. by ebould not Si. houee-
eolders vote? Then, in London amid various towns there
were lodgers, and among them there were the most .educaed
and intelligent men; why sbou d not they be admitted?
What was wanted was not only 'to give an ample represen-
tation to this country, but at the •same • time n t to excite
any jealousy or to deeenyiejostice. _ Now among the intel-
,igent artisan- you would find a strong feeling against the
peculiar mark which the Legislature thought fit to consii-
tute a title to. vote. There were thousande—he • was going
to say millions—of persons, who, being lodgers, were tie-
eluded from 'the franchise; but there was not a parish in
which you. would not find persons living as lodgers with
men who were entitled to vote, and who were of a higher
degree of mind and morality and everything else than their
landlords.—(Hea-.) He would not go now into the question
of the ballot. die .was surprised to hear the Attorney-Ge-
neral for Ireland (Mr. Napier) propound the exploded fal-
lacy that the ballot was un•Eeglish. *On-English! Why,
did the Right lion. GenCeman ever vote by, ballot at his
club I If a Member were proposed for admission who
from some social peculiarity was a bore, and whom the
Right lion. Gentleman wished to exclude from his club, he
would vote in such a case by ballot; and yet he would not
allow the same privilege to a man .who was called upon to
vote for a Member of; Parliament, and who, while under the
adened....f. a, person who dealt with. him.
or of a powernoe,-1-an neigtioour, imps-wean to nave an nide. 1
pendent opinion.—( Hear, hear.) Then the Right lion.
Gentleman foisted upon us the wretched argument that the
ballot was un-English. He (Mr. Roebuck) thought we h,d
done with all that long ago. He would be bound the Right
Hon. Gentleman had voted by ballot in his club, and, if so, ,t
he begged him to reflect a little, and ask himself achy he had
done so, and why he did not say to uimself, won't vote
in this un-English way; I don't like it; it is not bold and
open enough for me. I must tell Mr. A, whom I think a •
bare, that I shan't vote for him, that I shall exclude him
from my club; and I won't submit to the degradation of
'secret voting - any longer." -(A laugh.) But the Right
:Hon. Gentleman wanted the influence over the electors which
open voting gave. If not, let bun say so, and then he (51r.
Roebuck) would acknowledge the argument and grapple
with it; but don't Jet him deal with the question by a
sham. or tell the House about the ballot being un-Engiish.
Take a case. He (Mr. Roebuck) was a landlord, and he had
en influence over his tenant Now, what was that in-
fluence? Was it one proceeding from respect? Was it the
influence of a highly • instructed over a less instructed mind?
No; it was the mere influence of a dominant will over the
will of another man. The landlord did not in such a case
come to the tenant, and say, " I think you will find that
Mr. So- an t-So is not a good representative, because of his
opinions," but he seat his agent, who had this message-
- Tell the tenant that this is me will - if he does not vote
as I plea,e he must take the consequence." The Right lion.
Gentian n must believe ore of two things—either he neus
with to retaiu, by means of open voting, the sort of influence
lust d• scribed, or he must suppose that the el: etor ould
become detnoralise . by voting in a manner contrary to his
expressed intention New this, he suppeed, was e hat was
ineeet by un•Eoglise ; the tenant, it was feared, wont
promise his landlord one thing, and do another. But wby
iid the landlord ask him at all?—(Hear, he ,r.) N bode
raked the Right Hoe. Gentleman how he was going to vole
at his club, because, in the ti,st place, it was consideren
that no one had a right to put such a question, arid becaus
in the neat place, the Bight Honourable Gentleman would
not answer the question ii it wale put. Take the case of a
voter ia a ceuuty. A M-tuber was put up. Suppose h,
sees the teuaut, acid the Bight Honourable Gentleman tile
landlord, than whom nobody could be more oppesed in poli
Lies. Give him the ballot and, he.voied as he liked lit
voted against the Member proposed by his Right Hon.
Friend ; but take away the ballot, end let him stand exposed
to all tne influences which the landlord neild bring to bear,
and what was he expected to do? Why, to sacrifice any
itidependent feeling ot his own tuind. This it was which
-.vas un-English—(bear)—that he should be coerced avains,
his will, and compelled to vote against his conscience. As
to the Bill of his Hon. Friend the al,ember for Montrose (Mr.
ti me), when he recollected that there were small bo-
roughs, of which he could find a dozen—he might say 50—
'that should hardly have the population of one borough,
which were yet net better represented than they, he en-
tirely agreed with the greeter part .of his
.Hon. Friend's
propositien. The mind, however, could not help recurring
to the lest propo-al for retorm made by 'the Noble Lord the
Member for the city of London (Lord J Russell), :and cer-
minty, of all the mischievous proposals that were ever pro
pounded to this House, that which proposed to combine,
various small boroughs into one in order that- they should
have a voice in this House, thus conducing in every way to
immorality and to the improper representation of this
country, as the Noble Lord's measure did, was the most mis-
chievous —(Hear, hear.) What would be the immediate.
consequences of it? Why, that every so-called borough
would be made proportionate to a small county. You would
have in it an electioneering attorney, •a committee, and a
canvassing body; and, if the combined boroughs were five,
in number, you would haVe five attorneys, five committees,- -"
five canvassing bodies,-and five separate establishments alto- _
,gether. That woulde five centres of corruption, of ex-
pense, and of uneEnglish coercion.—(Hear hear.) Any
attempt to unite into one eection the small boroughs of this
cometi y, resuscitating that system by destroying which the
Noble Lord attained his great renown, was the most mis-
chievous attempt he had ever heard of. Without going
quite so far as his Hon. Friend did in his last proposition, in _
tae proposed proportioning of the representation to property,
he would be quite satisfied with a large extension of the
constituency of this country, with the ballot as a protection.
At present he wanted to know front the Government whe-
ther they would bring upon the Foii ical stage that portion.
of the population for whom he- found it their individual ca
pacities they were always expressing the most extraordi-
nary consern.—(Elear.) lie did not see how those persons
were to be excluded from tat representation for any length
of time, and he ventured to prophet,'
certainly not many yenrsi would not elap that many months.
se before some Mi-
nister of the Crpwn, more prescient thin the rest of his col-
leagues, would perceive that the peace of this country would
be best secured by giving to the intelligent artisans a voice
in this House; and that we should find those artisans re-
presented here by some new Reform Bill, brought in either
by the Noble Lord the Meimber for the city ot London, or
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, with, no doubt, the
view not only fairly to Secure his own position, but also to
give to the constitution that security which could only be
given if the intelligence and morality of this country were
equitably represented.— (Hear, Divide.)
The C dANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER--Although
the subject does not appear to be so interestiug to the House
as one might have
p
itri Ogpitole,t d —(Ministerial cheers)—I can
cot allow the present
-unity to pass without trespass
moments for a few moente upon
its attention. Aid, Sir. I shall
en eavour to do that which, so tar as I have been enabled
to observe, has not yet been pursued by ary gentleman wle
has preceded me not even by the Hon. Member who brought
torward this resolution—for I will keep to the motion Meer,
the House.—(Hear, hear.) We have had from the Hen.
and Learned Gentleman who has just addre%seit you one o
those dissertations which nu one can make more interestito
than he can en subjects of a Very abstract cher icier ; and w,
have had several speeches from other gentlemenecertattil)
on the subject of Parliamentary reform. But, it appeared to
me that those speeches were maul.), addressed, not to the
motion upon the paper, but rather to that still more elaborat.
though evanescent proposition, which for a mometet excite,:
eo much iti, erect, but which,' with a due regard for the oblt
Lord the Member for the city of London (Lord J., Russell),
I think Hon. Members opposite should have bad the
delicacy not to allude to. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Among those who have addressed the House is the Hot,
and Learned Gentleman the Member for the city 111
Oxford (Sir W. Page Wood), who delivered himself of a
very elaborate speech, which was evidently prepared to eup •
Port a Mii.is erial prep site ‘n—(Cheers and laughter) - and
one co sequence of the train of his argument, and one con-
clusion at which he scented inevit ably to arrive, was, with
singular inconsid euey, the determination not to: vote at al
in favour ot a proposition which for three successive year
he hall supported.—(c' Hear," and a laugh.) :Now, Sir.
when I look et the motion befOre' the House, I see few
propositions- contained in it. With a view to place them
succinctly haute the House, I will just recapitulate them-
We have a proposition to bring in a Intl which, is to extend
the franchise, which is to insure that that franchise, when i'
is exercised, should be taken by means of .the ballot, which
is to secure a triennial election of Parliaments, and which
is to change materially the proportion of repreientatives,
so that they shall be made more consistent with the amount
of population and property, This was the fourth proposi-
tion laid down for our adoption: - I understand from the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion (Sir.
J. Walmsley ) that the proportion of: representatives which
would be deemed • more consistent with the amount of
population and of property is, to use the lenguseee Orthat
Hon. Gentleman, a redistribution which will diminish what
he calls the territorial influence.—(Hear.) I am glad 1 am
stating fairly the qnestion before our consideration; and I
will -now venture to make a few observations upon this
fourth proposition, becnnse it is a more novel topic,
and one exciting perhaps the most interest. Well,.
I deny the positidn which Is assumed by Hon. Gentle-
men opposite I upon that point.—(Hear, hear.) I 'deny
that the proportion of representatives is unfairly arranged
in fairour of that territorial interest.—(Eiear, hear.) I
deny all the positions assumed in that pamphlet which
has been lately circulated and submitted to ,Parliamentary
Criticism. The Hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion
referred to some observations I made on a preceding night,
when we were frequently told that it was . a monstrous ano-
maly that a large town should, return only- two Alembers,
and that a small and almost depopulated borougli should be
repreSented by the same number of Members. t reminded
the Rouse on that occasion of the tact that Chem were.
agricultural, or, if the. Hon. Gentleman prefers the word,
territorial Constituences, vF)3 ith n
experienced the sae injus-
tice, if it be an injustice,,in regard to that distribution of
the representation which Hen. Gentlemen impugn, sold which
'their
impegn because of , peculiar interest an towns.
the," I. put th eir e
casefairly. The case
_instanced
__(Hear,__(Hear,ear,
on na
previous night ,was one which, as it
willref,ai
refer to again, though I have others
to which I amd
ispy a briefw one, I
very es.r,s of calling the attention of
the House
Mind, I am giVing no opinion now upon the
particular .circumstances before us;. I am 'confining
y
,
lf entirely to the endeavour of laying the case
fairly beforethe
is so sa. Yon say that the proportion
of representativesarrange the present .systern that
the townby
population are not fairly represented in our con-
stitntion and-in this House. I deny the accuracy of the
statement. give no opinion upon the expedic incy of any
preponderance being given to country-or to town, in the_Le-
gislatUre but confine myse.f now to mere statem en ts of. fact.
Let me'Call the a tension of the House to the case of North
Cheshire—alear)---sod I invite Hon. Members, while I
(19 59, to WO/ in mind the most advantageolo instances

or four hours have so severely criticised the withdrawn
which have been brought before our notice on the other side 1 versal suffragi-without which, as far as political justice ! from that unfriendly e. (War.) - a Why theyshould for
°pt.! .tteltitr:', tli,reile"la-tetom
of btrlreucibnesr ;Da T!W‘fordp.
mind, .for _ examtOe, if
_trey is concerned, Ido net ace how ,
in
~;.i. Lec,u
~
It N
uu ii ,v , ,
u4ii.,t,
43,0,u can establish the Lallot, _three,
Cho hire we have enly two towns ot great manufacturing von commit a greater iejastice L*1.13/0a li'fai" CUnStita'aSY'
—I
.will
.110 i: imy the a'oandoriel - prepoaition of the late
he unenfranehised Minister, Ido not pretend to undermand. Sitting on ,the
importance-Macclesfield' and Stockport. The total popu- I Classes;* but if you have
,universal n
suffrage you come to esathe side of the house, meeting under the same roof-
lation of the county is 249,000; the total population of the 1 a new constitution-(Heart-you Heart- ,• , eou have, iii feet, the mom- 1 (Cheers)-corabinirig and counci ling together for the same
two towns I have just ea tiled is 92,000. There rein ;ins, ! reiguty of the people, obi& is the • •
Mich principle of the • i ote ere -Meer bear -I should t
have t. o .ght that all these
therefore, as the difference hetweeu the two, 1e6,000. BIM, can eonstitution, no often rereered to andi Amen- ' '-'
'‘'t
' * )
pauegyrieed ee ; cootie would have prevented the slightest allu.sien to
while the two towns, with a population of 92,0e0, return , this House. But' the sovereignty of the People people is not the i the su jectpated thee tlaey would have byoueht forward their
four Members to Parliament, the rural constituency, with. ! constitution of En gland That constitution
156,000, ref , urn only too Members..- Take the cote of South . modified. but it is still the sovereignty of Oa -et
is mitigated toe a - osmon mithent obtruding them refitcoons on the
ed 1 oen mop t „
~
~;icemeu tctoria - tre:sr.o r 1 the Noble Lord, with regard to which we, oa
Cheshire, in which there is only one town, that of Chester. , (Cmate.--s.) "But," saps my Then. Friend,
T• e nopulation of the county is 200,000,• -and the populetiun ' ballot ; we will 110 longer hme tine spun argumentsnst heave the
this
aide, have always shown the most respectful silence.-
of- the town' of Chester 23,000, leaving 178;0e° of the popu- it. We must terminate bribery and corruption.' Ngo,inst I (Hen-, hear, and a laugh.) I should have thought that
v I gentlemen opposite would have considered the privilege they
lation of that county who • are net represented except beg his attention to a paragraph which 'comes from an ' enjoy in having .a high constitutional statesman on the one
by the county Members.' The' town of .Chester, with thither that he will respect, because it is a Transatlantic
its population of 28,' 00, returns two Members ti authority, and proceeds from a country where the people en- ,hand, and the privileee they have on the other of bringing
OM, ,House, while the rural constituency, of 178,000- joy universal suffrage and vote by ballot. Now, this is the forward revolutionary recommendations end plans, and that
returns the same numberom(CLeert.) I will take the case way in which the Governor of New York on the last occa- they would not have deemed it their duty to enter, during
of. South Derbyshire, where there ie only one . censiderable sion addressed tkic. Itegisl mire or that intelligent stet... whole evening, into a criticism of the late Government
toraaure,-( Hear and laughter.) We had some alio-
town, The popotation of Smith Dm-tomire it i MORO, and This woes a "(locum ,nt tt hick. tioubtlete, th y would treat with
1 ''`":s in ide fe a decker Memel the snedict of reform from the
that of the tem), oi e' by 40.1m0 leaving 115, +•0, of the the greatest cumin-ere, ion. for it ems attended with all the
rural p_ohuhatieno That Impute! ion .1 40 OW returns two circumstances which excited their respect and admiration. i intiruesijeolit }yeti et the Government ; but I protest against con-
hlembers,•'and tae rural poeulation of 125.000 returns the Atomics, New York, the ba let-exactly what the H. pa
,e elusions toawit from mere enommetre .petaimaphs in news-
same nummr. I will now tykee North Dereetn. It teem !eine rile ter Slieffield wiinted-oilogovernment ; and here; is i dot
root
consider
must my for mytelf and my eelleagues that ere
the import mit Miens of Darharri, Gi• esOsal, S ;u•li Shields, the ra inner in which the chief of the veltagoverneft addressed 1 mans with ig
-eater an extension of the treechise to be sytiony.
and Suoiteriand. 'rue eitire pepultti in et North Dart:rem is the Legieleture of no lees e. state than New York, when heat.) niattie emtensioa cf democretic powen-o dear,
272,00, including-both the tewit populetion and, the court- it tea assembled,-" The. alarming increase of bribery at ' has Co much moon vaunted Reform Bill, waich no one
try populaden ; and this is an interesti g f iet,• that while popular elections deemed= your ee; ious attention "-.-( Cheers for Montle se --:1141e4 with- prehe ai the Hon. Member
the pop ;laden of the towns is exactly the same as the tied teughter.) This is at New Yerk, re, select, where the but' for the e • 4t
would that Bill have been, I ask,
county popul .ti.,n, yet the impute' ion of the great commer- ballot is in force, -( timers ) The heal of the-State declares When I
8 am told that he (Lent
plot and energy of a Stetley ?-(Chters.)
ciai towns I have named are repre onr
. . , e ed by six Membere, that bribery is increasing to an alarmieg extent, and de- form, I cermet hut Derby) is opposed to ail re-
_ remember—
.while t the purely agricultural eoputAtioni of 136,090--,the- mania the serious atteminn of the Le-(Heer.) bas mlecee,lednie in the PArr,, Arid the Nub Lord who
other Orioiety of Niirth whom are only represented by I will quote some further ext=atte-fieni lee eatne letter it-that it was that L.nteete seat lonia ce held kaimis
tive Members. - (Cteers.') I migh sitl pursue this. I will t orn which I have read thispassage.' I will notion whichadded Lofty iclual who pri p esed a motion
men• one-ninth to th:: c,,risr, 1-
i .
Brits.::.
take tee important - coun te "of li,itt. Ww Kertt has a the name of the writer, t t .l, ueecy of Great
.feceuse am about to quote enly -(Heer, hear.) I repueiate
popul ition of 400.000. It- contains four gteat towns- f ,cri Li, to' •• He* ei t,of t • House,m s 1 .i I - the amertion of the Hon:
, e pooffne. was once a -.comer tots et t einae am. _es friends, that •w -
Chatham: Greenwieh, Maidstone, and Rochester, one of told has filled important situations in the serviu of his Satre- all reform unless we listen Lie i; .e are a party opposed to
these towns having ta imputation- of 100,0(10. The popula- reign- and it I were '0 state his name, it would, lam sure,, belt re us. I will tell the T-1'
~'rn()P'6'i'inns of the kind reef
Lion of the towns is 169,000,- and the remaining rural poph. be received by gentlemen on_ both bides with universal te- I opp...std to-we ate adverse to *-iiii'litien-la'a W.l" we
are
Moon is 228,000, yet the urban population' of 169,000 re- !meet. - You now knew that bribery is not prevented by the prop).ah Mended on such erroneous new and unnecessary
turns etsven Members tO Parliament, while the 2e8.000 Minot, mid yotr*ilefind that it does ref.:pre-vent something sent.- (Cheers.) I
tell
him
that
if:
anyceleulations as the pre-
only return the two ,Members for We'st Kent.-( Loud -Ise. "ledividuelt were not merely be :ten from the polls, any other subject is brought forward, ritiect on this or
cheers. O Yes. but year . after year we bave been told that but were knocked down, beaten, and stabb.-d when proceeding fourieled on more accurate data than the onebePe it will be
it is ni.,st unjust to the to tns - that our representative rys- about their urdiusry occupations in op •n day in distant parts (Bean) What we are opposed to is tampering before us.-
teen is Memorable to territorial influences, and that it is an of the city.- (Hear, hear.) The police appeared to have positary of political power-to constant sift With the de-
ng arid change
artificial means of 'giving preponderince to the, landed in- been utterly inefficient, and the honored thousand citizen sol- ing '
of the depositary of political power as the most '
terest. We never heard a'single word of , these extraordi- diers, of whom the New York papers boasted so much, were thing to a Couetry that' can be conceived.-(Cheers.)
mentions
nary circumstances. We have heard a great many contrasts content to remain at borne - (Laughter)-while a few gangs may talk of tampering with a policy,and
made between the number of representatives returned by of ruffians commanded all the approaches to the polling- things worse; but that which is worse is, tampering with
fen
the great towns- in South Lancashire and the smaller booths, and in one' instance destroyed the ballot-box "- the constituency of England.-(Cheers.) f there li*S-towith
be
boroughs in the south of England. But nOarlitunentary (Laughter.) I find no fault with my non. Friend and others a change,. let it be a change always called for by clear n
Te
Reformer has yet condescended to favour the House with the for recommending the adoption of a new mode of voting in this ceesity -
(Hem-, hear)-and one which is calculated to give
more extended views to which I have now alluded, views country. This is the laud of free discussion, and every one general-I will not say final-hut general and permanent
which I should hope will now be accepted as the result of a is at liberty to recommend what he thinks best, bat it is satisfaction.-(Cheers.) I ask, is the proposition of the
mere extensive and temperate experiencemo(Cheers.) I remarkable that in the instance of the ballot, as in that of Hon. Member for Montrose; the whole facts on the statement
will now appeal to that favoured region any mention of the proposed new distribution of electoral power, the of which it is founded I have shown to be utterly fallacious,
which is so favourably received in this House, and whose, facts on one side only are stated-only a one-sided view is is that a proposition calculated to give such general and
fortunes, commercial, Parliamentary, and political, are not brought before us, and only one class of considerations is permanent satisfaction ?-(hear, bear.) The propo ition
only the subject of so many dscassions in the minestemm emoodminem onemolotemem_nmeae.-hemm)- -I- returnee oho- -of the Noble Lord_at the head of the late Government, is that
Commons.,beitt whim, is itemommommenmememesto many narrative from the destruction of the ballot-box. Teis last one calculated to give general and permanent satisfaction?
leagues, contederatons-(Cheere)-and associations. The outrage upon the freedom - . iof election has very naturally The Noble Lord will confess that, whatever be its merits, it
people of , this part of the country. are celebrated caused extreme t calculated •
to we that general and permanent sa-
fer their ' powers of statistical analysis.--(A laugh.) that brutes The gof the
must be met by brute force, while the Tribune tasmc ion. sense
They . t favour us with the publication -of tracts on, is •
among other things, the profits that the colonels who thus trampled upon the highestt 'who will say that if thatproposition had been
privilege that a free man one
.brought
of regiments gain by clothing their soldiers, and they are as can enjoy, should have been shot like dogs by the freemen fairly under discussion, it would have received the concur-
go:tinted with the most minute details. But they have never whom their hireling souls thus villanonsly insolted."- rence of the House.-(Hear, hear.) Wecannot sanction the
called. the attention of the people to these facts. - (Cheers.) (Great laughter and cheering.) Now, I beg my Hon. proposition of the lion. Gentleman or his friends.- And may
Here is the case of North Lancashire. There are four consi- Friend to observe that while, by the confession of no less we not flatter ourselves that be will consider these things-
derable towns in -;forth Lancashire-Blackburn, Clitheroe, 'a personage than the Governor of the great state of New that he will investigate them, and calmly consider the im-
Lancaster, said Preston. -The population of North Lanes- York, the ballot does not prevent bribery, it is likewise -
portent information from the other side of the Atlantic which
shire is upwards of 4e0,000. -These foar towns out of that perfectly inefficient for the prevention of scenes of I •
• have given him, and that next year-with a health,
only take 143,000, leaving for the rural c institnencies a horrible intimidation, such as we cannot even conceive in spirit, and energy which I hope he will long enjoy-
population of 316.000. The four -towns return seven Mem- this country, men being beaten and stabbed at the polling- (Cheers) shall find him •
- we .
coming forward more temperate
bars, and the rural constituencies return only two Members booth. - (Hear, hear) My correspondent, for whom I know in his
views and more eful in his arguments ?-(Hear).
--t Hear, hear.) I will take the case of South Lancashire. my Hon. Friend entertains personally the highest conside- Till we have propositions different character b h.f t
of a
It has a population of Lbeo,ooo, under the new census. I ration, gives some further inf rmation respecting the ward I shall stand by the settlereeet made in 1831-(Cheers
will take all the towns, the noblest seats of modern industry influence of the ballot, and I must confess that what lam and counter cheers)-nut because it was a settlement made
-Aston, Bolton, Bury, Liverpool, Blanchester, Oldham. about to quote is really humiliating. "We understand by this party for our ' t
Rechdale, Salford, Warrington Wigan. The population of that the Whig committee of the Bth Ward"-I ought, against our interests; interests-for, on the contrary, it was
these boroughs is 1,000,000, being two-thirds -of the whole ' however, in justice to remind the House that the Whig the country has been well governed-(Hear, I am bound to se , that
-population of the county, and the remaining third- consists party in America is not identified with the party in this those who find fault with the °N-erned-(llear, hear - aad
arrangement, which I o not,
of the. rural population. Yet the million of manufac- country of which the Noble Lord opposite is the distinguished are bound to show that under thata
turing population in this proud county of South Lance- chief and hereditary ornament-i• We understand that the has been misgoverned.-(Hear, herarrangeTent the country
shire are.' represented by ffiteen e Members, while Whig committee of the Bth Ward and other wards have though many of the laws pained are laws In my
opinion,
could not have
the rural population, which is half as great, is represented offered 100 dollars to every man who can secure twenty approved, the arrangement has proved satisfactory and the
by only two Members. lam sure the H use have heard such democratic votes for the Whig tickets on election day."- preponderance of sentiment in the country imthat
long, frequent, and repeated complaints of the injustice (Cheers and laughter.) "This money has been partially the country has been well governed.-(Cheers.) under
done to.towns, and the preference given to, the agricultural raised by the most shameful extortions from the office holders scarcely one of the great questions agitated in the country
is
interim, that they will not feel that lam abusing their pa- of the party It is said that every policeman in the ire met, ig which, in this Parliament, has not been andtr
tience by these details-(Cheers , from the Ministerial districts has been taxed fifteen dollars towards defraying theretore when gentlemen come forward with new proposi-
benches ) I will therefore take the county of East Nor- the expenses of the election - (Continued laughter.) By tiona, if they cannot show that the present construction of
folk, in which their are two great towns. East Norfolk Mile means the Whigs seek to- crush every in ependent this House is calculated o favour misgovernment, and at
has a pap 'lemon of 250,0 0. Norwich and Yill mouth has feeling in the voter, and to make him the mere tool of party he same time are unable to place before us any clear and
a• population of less than 00,1100. Yet the 99,t 00 persons With the tummy procured in this manner political hacks are coherent scheme that promises a more ameliorative system, I
in the manufacturing towns and the seaport are represented sent to buy up the votes ot the poorer, and yet more depot- must uphold the system that exists, though I believe it one
eye tour Members, while the agricultural populmicer of East dent classes in those wards. (Cheers and laughter.) This that was conceived in no fri ndly spirit to the Try party.-
Norfelk, nearly deuele its amount, are ogle represented by payment of 101 dollars to every man who can procure 20 (Rear, hear.) But it i, one by which reme diet ir fluences
awe elembers.-(Gtreers.) I now approa•Ci Yorkshire, and democratic ~ vo:es for t , Weig ticket is certainty intolerable, have been experienced under th-
good sense and support of
teat is the has comity I will quete. I will first begin with tied I have been particular in bringing it under the notice of the People. of England, and under wttieh our institutions have
Eist Yoroehire. The Bast Ridieg has a poptiletion of my Men. Friend, in order that he may empley the great in- flourished-institutions which, I believe, are absolutely ne-
-2 1,0 0, and co,.taitis two towns, one, Hull, a port of great flume•t he possesses not only in England, but on the other ems ry, not only o the ereatnes.s of this country, but to the
in, ortance The town population ot the East Riding s:de of the Atlanic, in preventing democrats electors lkill; treedern of the pe•ple.- (Great cheering.)
is 94.000, represented by foar Meeteers. The rural Urito;d to Vote fir anything so bad as the " Whig ticket."- Mr. H. BERKELEY, who teas :emelt wholly inaudible
population, 1 V.,000, ere represented 'by only. half (Laughter.) All this iniquity is practised under the opera- from the buzz of cenvereation in the M ,-,L,e, g
atevee would al toetia.
that amount -(lltar,- hear.) The West Ili 'mg re 'jou of that very - system which my Heneurable Filmed nation relative 'o, tit, ballet He stated th h la-
that
and it I were to seek en instance to show- says is the only me ins of preventing br.b is, a;d which serve the more particular expression of his views till a !Inure
hat the distribution of representetion is not made with any the Elonouraole Member fir Britoil would, perstoele us ito •lay, when he brougto on win motion on the subject,
:mere to promote or retain the preponderance of tee landed adopt assn ittfallible mede of preveetirg itttimidat on.- jected to the ballot, b,,iog ed up with any other question
interest, I shituld reek it in the West Riding, that is so (Cheers.) I MU.StAll'ne one paragraph' more.' beciuse it re- whatever. The Right - Hoe. Gentleman had alluded to a
m i the te -ofour diseueions, There are nine pork,
to legislarime ant hority. In the 'exeeri•-nce of New disturbance in New Yeak and to the ballombox being
rrequent y su jeet
considerable towne in the West Riding-Leeds, Sheffield, York, at least, the ballot has been proved ioefficfeitt for the brole-n, but he would give the House another piece of infor-
Bradford, Halifax. Hudderefield, Wakefield, and others. purpose ot preventing bribery at elections; and the folio*• matien tram enteric-:, and that was, that in the eouthere, or
Tim entire population of the West Riding is 1,300,000. The ing p,eamme and resolution have been presented to the As ,ri-t.....retio States of the Ueion, they were seeking to get
town population is 500, 00, and the rural population semuly :-" Whereas the use of money at elections, for the rid o`tte ba lot, I ec.use the friends of the abolition of
aOO,OOO. The town population are represented .by sixt -en purpose of influencing and corrupting electors, is an in- ee.very took protectte, under the ballot, and the enemies of
Memb ors, although they are only 5000th) in number, wbile creasing slid dangerous evil, and the bestowment. or offer, Abolition bad no means of detecting their votes.-(Bear.)
the rural population of 8011,000 are representedt not by sixteen promise or reception of money, or compensation in any fur in, Mr. OSBORNE congratulated the Helms and thtough
Members, bat be two.-(Loud cheers fro n the
.Ministerial should be made good and sufficient grounds for the challenge th •m the country on this, that whatever evasions or rays-
denchesn This is a summary of what I have just stated. and rejection of a vote; but, whereas doubts exist as to the laic:ohms might have gene forth (hiring the last week, upon
In Smith Lancashire esteem the :borough population every conetitutionelitnof tO lew itisfranchieette an elector, there- one noint the Chanceller of the Exchequer bad been euffi-
-70,000 perilous have a representative, and every 257,00 e of fore, resolved, 'Teat the Committee on the judiciaty be and enemy expeeit,m( Olean beer.) Treeing in the footsteps
--the rural population have a representative. •In the West are hereby requested to examine and report whether, in of the most iiluettioue warder of the age, the Righ Hon.
Riding of Yorkshire every 32,000 of the populition of the their opinion; a law conformable to the foregoing prea able Gentleman, after much circumlocution, bad formally de-
Riding
ns have a Member, and every 400,000 of the agricultural would be a violation of any Provision of the Constitution clued the intention of the Government to - abide by the
population have a similar advantage.-(Hear, hear.) I know of this State.'" Let not oar countrymen run away with Reform Act of 1831.-(Cheers.) He had announced that
it may be said, and it 'will -be --midi unless I answer the idea that corruption is the necessary 'consequence of Her Majesty's Government did not intend to move on witq
it by anticipation, "You have made out a very good co- the old mode by which we give our votes in this coun- the spirit of the age --(No, no)--that they looked upon the
lourable case in favour of your views; but you have selected try.-(Hear, hear.) - I believe it to be a growing senti- Reform Bill as a final measure-that the old finality dodge
five or six important but partial instances." Sir, I have'an- meat in the conviction of Englishmen that corruption is was to be renewed, and that come what might the Govern-
ticipated that objection, and I have tested. the matter in ano- the consequence of men not being properly brought upe went would give no reform in Parliament.- (Hear, hear.)
ther manner, which it must be admitted is a fair mode. -(Hear, hear.) You may pass laws ostensibly to pre- The Right Hon. Gentleman said he would certainly give the
Here I have a catalogue of the population of every town in vent , corruption in countries where nothing is secret, country no reform in this Parliament tier in the Parliament
England which has a population of not less than 20,000. or in countries where nothing is open; but corruption cannot to come.-(Cries of " No, no," from the back. Ministerial
There are 77 towns in this 16t, beginning with Ashton and be stopped by law; it can only be stopped by elevating the benches.). He knew it was the intention of times ardent
ending with York, with a population, many of them, much tone of the community, and making men ashamed of the Reformera who cried " no" to give the country a farther
exceeding 20,000. They include almost all the seats of cern- thing itself•-(Cheers.) You must seek for an antidote to measure of reform, but unfortunately they were not in the
Me me and manufacturing industry, and they include a popu- corruption in that direction and not in new-fangled sys era Cabinet. Let there be no mistake on this point, that the
lation of 6,200,C00, who are represented by 133 Members. of election. I say, further, that the tone of the community present Cabinet was satisfied with the settlement in 1831-
•There• are - several • towns - which do -not possess popu- in which we live is becoming elevated. Every successive (No, n •)-and that they would be no party to give reform a
lations of 20,000, but which are considerable places, quarter of a century shows a decrease of corruption. No further trial- The Right Hon. Gentleman had commenced
.the seats of commerce, and which ought to he in- man who knows anything of the tone of public life a hundred his speech by attacking the speech of the Hon. Member for
serted in any list of the' kind, although they dp not pos. years ago can hesitate to admit that corruption then ascended the University of Oxford-(No, no, and a laugh)-he
sess populations of quite 20,000, such as Lowestoft and much higher in society than it does at present. You have b:'gged the Hon. Gentleman's pardon-be (Sire. Wood) had
Lynn Regis, I have added abOut 30 of these boroughs to driveu corruption from the higher classes. In Proportion as not descended to that yet- he was the Member of a popular
the 77 boroughs, all of which have a population of 20,000, education extends, men become more pure, and when the o nstituency-the Member for the city of Oxfird, and the
end some of them a vast and immensely increased pepala- same influences come into operation among the inferior Right Hon. Gentleman said it was a speech to be made
don.. The population of these 107 large towne, and strictly classes you may hope to obtain a result which it is for the upon the resolution to be moved by the Noble Lord
borohgh COnitittlendee, is more than 6,500,000, represented interest of all classes should be accomplished.-(Cheers.) I (Lord J. Russell); but lee (Mr. Osborne) would leave it
.by 187 Members. The result of this analysis is the Mllow- have noticed what I conceive to be ram Hon. Friend's total to the House, it the speech of the Chancellor of the Exche-
ing :- If these Members represent EMOO,OOO, about half the failure to prove, that the proportion of representatives is net quer was not also directed to that very motion.-(No, no.)
population, taking the population of the country at consistent with the different clams of population. I think I He wcuid not weary the Reuse by heading through the
1,7,000,000, that remaining portion of the community are have shown that nothing can be more erroneous than dreary mass of confused statistics which the Right Hon.
represented by Members barely exceeding in number the the opinion 83 prevalent in a portion of this Home Gehtleman had thought it his duty as Chancellor of the Eon
Members representing this catalogue of towns.-(Hear.) I and thecountrtt that the landed interest possesses an undue chequer to bring before them in order to show that the
find that the population of these boroughs have 35,000 per- preponderince in this House. I think I have also shown, agricultural constituencies were not fairly represented, while
sons to every Member of this House, and that the popu- by reference to figures 'bearing official sanction which are boroughs and towns had a greater proportion of represents.
lation of the rest of England, the rural populalion, have open to everybody, that it is almost impossible to distribute tires. But he told the Right Hun. Gentleman that, on his
36,000 for every Member.-(Cheers.) So that, 'taking this the electoral power more justly than is done at present own showing, he was bound to bring in a Reform Bill to re_
complete and comprehensive view, when you come to a between he two great classes which represent the town and move the injustice done to what he called the territorial ' in.
fair distribution of the representation-between the land and country. I also venture to think that I have offered my terest. But be had no such Slesign ,• he had omitted, too, all
the town population, you have only between each a differ- lion. 'Friend some reasons for doubting whether as much mention of Ireland; and he (Mr. Osborne) feared that
ence of 1,000 in the proportiota of the popalation.-(Hear.). corruption and intimidation may not prevail under a system was going to legislate for that country on very
In both cases, in the case of the urban and the rural and of secret voting as we have ever experienced under the -principles. - (Oh, oh I) Without being enamoured of the
different
landed population, you have a less difference in the number systern which exists in this country.-( Hear, hear.) I have motion of tam lion. Memeer for Montrese to
of persons represented by each Member than has been quoted further given' some reasons for supposing that my Hon. country into districts,
he was so far diesatisfitof . map this
by Mr. Mackay. Whether you look to the town or country Friend and those about him should hesitate, with their pre- of 1831, which her Majesty's Government had pronounced
the Bill
population, they are, therefore, more amply represented in sent constitetional doctrines, to recommend short Parlia- to be final-No !no 1)-that Le would y pronounced
it-par-
this House thau is laid down in the pamphlet that has meats. (Hear, hear.) I next come to the PrOpo,i- ticularly for the latter part of the pro vote for,
men alluded to as the proper exemptar and type of represen- thin, that the franchise • ought to be very much ex• proportion of reeresentatives be made l'''sition, " that the
tetion in t his House. Having examined this subject so far, 'tended ; and on this I have one olmervation to make. 'he amount • f population and pro ert rnore consistent with
I have arrived at a different conclusion MOM that .of my Viewing this question with perfect impartiality, I trust. Gen.leman said he would makeP 3h" The Right Hon.
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose- I think that his sta- I have been much struck by the great exagge'ration which ee ballot; and had referred a colourable case against
tistics, and the statistics of his school, are founded upon pervades the statfirnents made by my Hon. Friend and York. He did not object to the riots in New
iartial instances, and supported by fantaBtie c.imbinationS his associates. I remember last session to have heard a dii inail, taking the eme i,f meerica but , g
to the Pi ht Hon. Gentle-
which convey erroneous impressions that do not justify the tinguished Member of this House-one who is in the last of select the American tariff, b , he wished he
in the
„they that he edvocatee.-(Cheers.) All the doe upon ot addressing it wit' ; great ability, and with sufficient coed- constioitien of ~ te, nu
a. but take what was good
Was the
.vhielt he his relied appear to me completely illusory, dense in his cause and himself-1 mean the Hon_ Membei mbancellor of the Exeee 3 - Lemma cheers)
elections
.n.l, as the facts to which I have appealed are f.,r M euchre. er ask this gatee ion :-" Is tee sy - tem to do ,
vas carried On in tme tomer content with the O
st.
the case
:pen to all, and may be tOund in the books in endured in which only one 1: seven of the
in
popufatfoi. of Harwich, the bet '
t ntre ? led be rememberl t r-General
•timtnechatee sit F 'Jug 1 for which the So im o
Ms library, I shall be surpri,ed to find him main- enjeys the Tranchise?"-(Tutnultuouhs ea•rhe”erft
rsogm th e 0 • s ' Kelly) was a carld.
raining his pothion that- in the distribution of the rer tel owed this appeal; ami •
'' ' }heard tell; sentiment them nut n iated. because the
rthe hustings as
electors catned atv''
immentation the, town population is not justly. teemed in Mom) Ay; I say so. 1“u c eere
that -I
' ne adult in' 1 ti''
heir perquisites -, and it oterieas that riots bap-
retpect to a comparison with the country PoPol -diem- you cheer it now. Is
.it trueon y.. • a e ~
~,,,en in t I
seta. .
ewes net. e, i
... lion ? 60 far
tratmteme? Here are th figures, let us ex- 1 °I Ltiolariti duttim al ie°
(Cheers ) It appears to nit, Sir, that this is a postmen that seven enjoys the telt as 184
aMr was prepared before the puttlica. o ee eC r rti teeobtairicd by. t . fence
can no linger' be supp itted..-(Cheers. ) Going to the next amine them'. Thie p i t ieffi Id ha I , the- exis of
toopoeititre, my Mote Friend asus to
• teaks
a heel) yet
e. .ieve compared with the elect() e! uPlO-in • and nomiiiie ha- -on Gentleman that
east the duration of Parliament ought. not to exceed Ahem ceu,us of 1841, which 11T the evil. lint a'could 11 tee Right H •
years. Sir, I have no inveterate prejudice to shorter Par- lists of Great Britain fur 1'42-3. he prop
rtfionB Inuit eel- Ise , ut ee felt
have
ballot. Both sides
Ottumwa' I have often said in this Hottee that triennial dently be niush ahour the satne as they would have been h I . people were &lei-miled to
and be confessed that he be-
Parliainents were always supported by the Tory Party, had availed ins sell of the census of i 8 t 1 for the purpose e -
...ere to ha blamed for this.
• ry were to be traced back
stem
of Pub,
that statement has been received with scoffine by Hon. Gen- comparison. The electors' for 'meet Britain in 18 i 2 O wore
,eveti, if this 6YAt''-id to found to Mein with the Wbig
i Lateen opposite, who do not condescend to pay much regard 941,782,. and the adult males were, in 1341, 5,96 I eme, .fe its soLree, it v"ou! Intone, who were obliged to re-
to any other history than that in which they form such dise - which' gives, instead of 1 voter in 7, 1 voter in 5, omit itch pr- yin the time 'it
means of oi. po the iiAlueticets
tinguished charactersem(Cheers and, laughter.) But there fractione. - ( Hear.) But from the 4,9a1.045 adult 111.1: 'rttoit as thehoearne.3.l
(Criee Ili .‘ Hear, bean") The fact
is no doubt that the change in our manners, whi‘h. has ;in- some deductions must' be made. For the tomy -atm ' \ u'aring °gains": was tinc(re in the deeire of putting down
meased the busineis of the Reuse of Commons, is an ele• abroad and in Ireland, and (or the navy and merchantnuv. Nas, f,either,,l),6_?; had ,‘
h beau Sincere th- e Would have edomed
Merit that must be taken into consideration when you wish men afloat I deduct )0,650, which leaves • the adult soh- e iberY, ballot te. e 0 e, oh) ,to protect the people, tiet Only
ro ascertain the proper duration of Parliaments. Bet, popatetion at 4,791,39 n Then I deduct 35.0:0 f ,the male mite by, . , and corruptiono but from intimieation, which
lest at home 111 0,9 for the nay and r army tom bribe e
remembering, what has happened here during the e ~ . e merchant Beam,,, ~. ,.„., rife than those. The Member for the University
fertnight. lam filled with astonishment to hear the. 74
Re- _ _,149 for airnemome, pensioners, mee ammo eras In".
paupers, BSc, rapier)made the stereotypedobjection
eon e r. old
lunatics arm ,t Da • .
formers and Liberals come forward in favour of triennial prisoners, and 161,354 for domestic th t't l lo r b What
tesvente,
,wh at. .0 this asietron a i You eneariger the Monarc y.
from
Parliaments. What have they told ns this year? One ways excepted any scheme of refortn. (Me: are
ead endangered the Monarchy in France? Wee it not that a,
member of the Government is very anxious to bring forward Then I deduct the re lens of the r, heani
+on of 31°00,000 had only 230,000 electors? And here
Population °, -
, 26, and na,.
a measure which be considers of the utmost importance for reduce the adult population to little mote ' .4'
r 3'
29 566. he mutt express his semprise to hear the Chancellor of the
the security and geed government of ' the realm. Bet what Thus, instead of lin7, it is, by the fie than 4,1 . Eon-mitter ftefine the Sovereignty of the country to be in
table in
• -
~ -Why, you are bringing forward a measure official retinae, only lin 4. -cue er, ,ores on oulr
moat go Queen Victoria ; and had the Right Hon. Gentleman been
are we told?
Parliament Cheers and laughter.) further. Those bold statetnents , hear.) But . -• on that (the Opposition) side of the House, he would,
in the last year of a . (
.i-(A. of-I 11 not call them sitting
You would legislate in a condemned. Parhament
the demagogues,- after what we have heard from 7" the motoßlem- no doubt have defined the Stvereignty as consisting in
idligh:y It. can't be heard of. You ought. to counsel ber for Montrose-but the bold t Hn
Gentlemen Queen, Lords, and Commons.- (Oh, oh.) Thu Right
Sovereign to prorogue and dissolve the -Path . ,
ament as some as having dwindled do "temeflts of
o . Elul Honourable Gentleman had objected to the aecresy of. the
wn to tine that I have no an
possible." But if in the last year of a Parliament so much population of 4,129,566, to u ' I tore! body, ballot. ,He ought to have been the last man in the
is lost, should have, if my Hon• Friend's proposition gives lin 4 1
ItUral House to have done so, considering he was a member of
time we - ask what am Ito do with the agrien
h --and if thet yet heard a Government which was shrouded in secrecy The
were adopted, duennial Parliaments-(A laugh)--and, ) , . and urban labourers?...in
) I have no t
old and favourite scheme of, annual Parliaments were again that the Hon. Gentleman ear,
hear.friends, while they motet Mayncoth cry was to be used es a claptrap to go
put forward and' adopted, Meta dmuld. h Ave . annual Parlia- plain that •only lin and his
exercise of the franchise, to the hustings-(Hear, hear) - and her Majesty's Govern-
laincondemned Parhaments-(A laugh) - 7 have the give a vote to the uncut would not speak their minds upon it, but he' could
meats; that is to say, • have any wish,under system, to
and the Commons of England could never presume to legis- 1,435,412 e any is country.-(Hear, hear.) tell them it would become a very serious question for them,
would cease to
late, because they would be dissolved, and
~ I' oever heard 0
P asantty spread over t 5
is
that kind. Well, then, -(Qaestion, question.) The Hon. Member for Deblin
bold assertion of
exist In the very year they met. The third! proposition if I deduct lie
f oro 4,129,566, I have remaining University knew nothing of the efficacy of the ballot-he
of my Honourable Friend is the recommendation of the only 2,6e0 these
labourers
from the electoral body, is had no poor men to deal with who might be swayedby some
,154, which as
su or nearly lin 3.-(Hear, hear.) attorney, or by some one who could put the screw on him,
vote by ballot. Now, it is always the case that the man. lin 2 and-
nor of taking the votes can never be considered as an But - a fraction of 86,
the statements we have always but the representatives of popular constituencea knew what
abstract question. You must . necessarily look at the heard- what a difference.t
..../flear, lime e
e What a difference hose he were.-(Divide, divide I) Wh-,
tes you have to take.. If you have to take a very large from on this subsc 1 l y had they
made at Manchester and at Leetle I not seen it stated in all the papers that at a late election the
Ott - the statements
number of rotes; or if you bare, .on. the contrary, a very Fassociations .at LiVerpool or any- agents wrote to say that if the tenants did tot vote for Mr.
small number, the method by which you will recommend From those of reform
.onee a difference from the statements enede Frewen they mast not expect the lendlords to deduct from
them to be taken necessarily assumes a different character. mhere else! • m
h I-(Bear, Bear.)_
e What a difference from their rents ?He could have wished that the motion hoe been
With a limited constituency the ballot. may, be a very con- in
PeelP T'enttss'of those erratic orators who, during the iong put in a Letter form, but he would vote for it now, as he
stitutioeal measure; but are. Hon, e:Gentlemen prepared to the batestatements
astounded all- the world!-Hear,( bear.) In_ had voted for similar motions before. If the Noble Lord
t the ballot on this condemn ?. Well, 1 will vacation,
Boweabsolutely-little more and his party, who said they toek offi. barriers to demo-
accept assumestead a one in . . , c
Jo
n includtng 1,5 ,000 cf labourers, who cracy, instead of taleino
that they. are not prepared se to accept it, and. that they - ' aly, eye of t ereeelves as barriers-
Oat e ou -
would not recommend vote by.hallot with the panent con- .NT
one of yon have unequivocally proposed to enfranei i. et wore sometimes swept away by the waves of democracy
stifuency.-(A. • cry of " ties") .You are not?-(Cees no(tCbeers.) It appears to me, then, that the propositions tee would join Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House
" Yes," from the Opposition benches.) I h heard I' of
-th House ate crude, that they do not bring with them (Ironical cheers and lot; titer malting a channel for the
have tc- fore e facts, and democratic w -
night oligarchy, but I never heard
of an
A, ..,,h1;.,, ,, of a more canning prod' of investigation, are not in accordance with
has , SA e, very sure was he that, so far from weaken-
and successful "eviec's to "1-7," au oligarchy than to 'nve tdo ndi. indicate that degree of research which the House ing Queen, Lords, and Commons, the Noble Lord, if he pro-
a limited number °I persons-IX" the suffrage- and to 1 a right to expect in all matters of this kind. (Hear, he r.) ,party treated and r r 1
, -Operiy trusted the people, would 10
them from inspection, from criticism, and controla on guardthe part rt, appears' to me that they are based on statistical errors strengilwring both this and the other House of Parliament.
of the untith'enehised millions about whom We here beard L.O mere flagrant than their political blunders, and that we Lord J• RUS'SELL -- Sir, I heat so often addressed you
much -(Loud cheers from the Ministerial be
No, I cannot, whatever may be our opinion of the policy rem m- on the subject of the motion now before the House, that I
do not believe from the speeches of m Hon. Friend the mended, approve of it, founded as it is on such en.°l2ec!us shall not think it hecess,ry, neither would it be agreeable to
Member for Montrose end other parties on that.side of the and imperfect data. - (Hear, hear.) - I am not. one of' those the House, to go at any length into the several propositions
House, that they sincerely desire to see the' -
P-esint coasts- who think, that because I disapprove of a proposition which my ao
monourable Friend has introduced. It appears
tuency vote by 'ballot
• They always say that an • extension brought forward in this immature manner, lam bound to ' Bille, Sir, the si '
mple question is, whether the adoption of a
of the franchise is a necessary concomitant of the vote by oppose every proposition.brought forward to remedy griev- founded on the principles contained in my Hooottrable
ballon-( Hear,' hear). But where do they draw the vances connected with the representation of the people.- Friend's propositions would conduce to the good government
line ?-(Rear. ) Where is the line to be drawn, if they . (Hear, hear.) There has been yery free criticism on the ,of the country, and on that proposition I have come most
admit that the franchise is a right? If you,
say that other side by the new supporters of the Noble Lord of the clearly to the opinion that it would not conduce to the good
yen do not want to draw the' line, and tel us " I measure which he proposed when he was a Minister of the government of the country.-(Loud cheers.) I believe that
have submitted to these restrictions in deference to the Crown.- (Hear, hear.) I think a sense of decency, if it you had a different distribution-which, however, bas
prejudices of Other persons -if You •vf ial to have aui- nothing else, ettoold hate led those gentlemen to I°4;ga - not been chalked out by De/ tl9ll9lllAble ..reiendeebne Bun