The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-21 00:00:00

tYN

lieve the Noble Lord seriously thought Government bad
any mistrust of the loyalty of Ireland, when he must
know that the army was largely recruited with.lrish-
men—(llear)—who had ever been conspicuous fur their
gallantry and loyalty.—(Llear.) As for the plan of
raising the.militia by ballot, be could only say the mi-
litia had never been raised by ballot in Ireland. If the
Militia Act were repealed, the difference which existed
now in raising militia in England and Ireland would still
be made the same. If the House permitted the Bill to
be introduced, he thought till the objects of the Noble
Lord would be obtained, and he believed it would place
the defences of the country
on a proper footing. He
believed there was a necessity that the country should.
be further protected, and Government therefore asked
the House to consent to the further progress of the Bill.
Mr. DEEDES did not think the Right Hon. Gentle-
mand
happ
happiness of.
oTf,L theG itsbounu)rwi
nesu
eld
la
saedsv abtay c
no
ot the
vc'ionngt e
an ts
uaffin
cient force at hand in ease of invasion.—(dear.) He
had listened throughout the debate to all that hod fallen
from Members of her Majesty's Government and Hon.
Members on both sides of the House. He did not intend
to effer opposition to the Government measure; but Hon.
Members must judge of the measure introduced by look-
ing at the language used by those who introduced the
measure. The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russ{ ID did not
appear to speck out distinctly respecting the provisions
he wished to carry out. The Noble Lord dwelt on the
training the men were to receive. If the force WWI
wanted for any emergency, the sooner that force was
put in au efficient state the better, and the leei expensive
it would be for the country. Tho Noble Lord said he
thought fourteen or twenty eight days in each year, and
two hours or three hours and a halt per day, would suf-
fice. He loiled at the broad, general question, not the
small niceties of it. If it was necessary to put the
country in a defensive state—he did not wish to go
further than that—it was madness to sit still'under real
danger. He had no with to see a foreign general in his
house, unless by his invitation and to partake of his hos-
pitality. He could not help thinking the Bill as it stood
would not give such an efficient force as was required.
All ho wanted teas a proper force for an emergency,
and as he believed tho amendment of the Noble Lord the
Member for Tiverton would effect that object he should
give it his support.
Mr. HUME said when the majority of the House
had so clearly demonstrated its wishes that the Bill
should be brought in to carry out the recommendations
of the Committee, ho never recollected that any. oppo-
sition, as at present, had been raised to that course. He
objected to the amendment, and he also objected to the
Bill as unnecesssry. If .Government wished for an in-
crease of military defences, it was proper to lay a plan
before the House. The proposition of the Noble Lord
(Lord Palmerston) was certainly very unusual, and'one
which he could nut consent to. He should therefore
vote with her Majesty's Ministers. He should do this,
but without admitting the necessity of the Bill; for the
Noble Lord who introduced the,Bill had not pointed out
any danger, nor showed any reason for introducing the
Bill. He denied that he wished to leave the country
defenceless. Ho wished the country to bo properly de-
fended. We had spent for years 16,000,000/. on army and
navy. But we were told, with 200,000 regular army, we
were without sufficient defence. We had also 230
ships, manned by 39,000 seamen. Taking our navy
our sailors, and our military force, we had 239,000 men

in pay and under arms. This was exclusive of troops
in the colonies and in India. We had at present a
greater amount of armed force in these kingdoms than
ever was the case be!ore, and he therefore did complain
of Hon. Gentlemen getting up and stating we were with-
oat defence. He considered it was unwise to express an
opinion that we feared an invasion. It was throwing out
a challenge to a country wi h which we ought to be at
war—(Loud laughter)—he meant ought not to be at war.
He considered it was a monstrous proposition to say we
wanted more defence; when we were already so amply
provided with all kinds and means of defence. The
country was in a better state of defence now than it had
ever been, and he saw Bo necessity for any extraordi-
nary preparation, unless indeed the Noble Lord had en-
tered into a private negotiation to support some of the
continental governments. He should, however, vote in
favour of the Government on this occasion for the intro-
duction of their Bill.

------. ---
Mr. S. HERBERT wished merely to state that the
Right Hon. Member the Home Secretary had misun-
derstood what had fallen from him too other night on

this subject. He had not argued for a permanent em-
bodying of the militia, but bad merely suggested that as
they were about to deal with the militia laws they
should deal with them as a whole. The Noble Lord
had stated that he was willing to accept the amendment,
but' the moment it was proposed the Noble Lord repu-
diated it, and said that its proposers must take the re-
sponsibility of the Bill.—(No, no.) He apprehendeci the
Noble Lord was arguing on a proposal of which the
House was ignorant, but which had been communicated
-privately to him by the Noble Lord the Member for
Tiverton. The House was not in a similar position, and
had to argue merely from what the Noble Lord had
proposed. All that the Nuble Lord the Member for
Tiverton proposed was,
to omit the word " local." In
dealing with such a question, the House ought not to
take that which was exceptional. In his argument the
other night he had rested it on the convenience of train-
ing, as he thought great advantage would arise in the
event, or in anticipation of war, in being able to move
the militia from county to county without embodying
them. He certainly was surprised that the Noble Lord
should not accept the amendment, omit the word " local"
and admit the word " consolidate."

Lord J. RUSSELL wished to explain, as the Right
Hon. Gentleman had misunderstood him. What he had
stated was that the Government had a Bill ready on the
subject, and that if the principle of it were adopted it
would be necessary to bring in another Bill afterwards
respecting the general militia. With regard to the
local militia he had stated that they had a measure
ready, whereas the other Bill had never been considered.
The consideration yet might require a week, perhaps a
month, and therefore ho asked leave to withdraw the
present measure, reserving to himself the right to in-
troduce the other Bill.

Colonel THOMPSON, with respect to the apprehen-
sion of danger, would use the words they were all fami-
liar with in thel story of The Babes in the Wood,—
" Kill him again, Walter, for such a villain canni)t'be too
dead."—(A laugh.) He could not bettor explain the
reason why be would vote with the Noble Lord (Pal-
merston). Ho recollected the doleful looks that were
directed in 1804 towards the Channel for the approach
of the flotilla that did not come. They
had great con-
fidence in the militia, then, and they allknew that the re-
gular militia was a highly respectable force; but as to the
local militia, without speaking slightingly of anybody,
they did not know where it wae.--:(A laugh.) There
were old militia laws that would do very well for their
purpose, with such touches as the lapse of time might
require; but he wished them to bear in mind that the
',cal militia was of little value as an embryo force.—
(Hear, hear.) Something had been said of Frenchmen
refusing to join invasion. There was not a Frenchman
that dart d to refuse, and, what was more there were
very few Frenchmen that would.—(Hear, hear.) Let
them, then, make such preparation as they could, always
hoping that, as in the old war with France, the enemy
they were prepared to repel would disappoint them by
not coining.—(Hear hear.)
Mr. MAULE could nut allow the House to go to a
division without endeaiouring to show the House and
the country the difference between the two principles
now placed before them. The object which the Govern-
ment had in view was to introduce a Bill for amending
the law with reference to the local militia, which would
have the effect of providing for this country at the
cheapest rate, and in a manner less burdensome to the
people, a force which would be most speedily at the
disposal of the Government to protect these shores on
occasions of actual or threatened invasion. For
the last four or five years this was a principle to
which the attention of the Government had- been
given— to establish a force similar in constitution to the
local militia of former days,. in which a large population
should be trained to the use of arms at a moderate dis-
tance from their residences—and that there' should be
in every part of this country a respectable force for the
defence of any locality. It might be all very well to
disparage the local militia. It they wished to have
another name for it, let them call it an army of reserve,
if they pleased ; but to all intents and purposes it was
a branch of the service composed of m,,n in their own
localities, and therefore interfered the least with their
employments. But the regular militia was a totally dif-
ferent thing, and he was as distinctly opposed to having
a regular militia in the time of peace as ho would be to
personally
any propo:ition to add 50,000 men to the standing army.
andto
non. Gentlemen, perhaps, were not aware of the com-
pulsory powers given by the regular Militia Act. That
Act compelled the men selected by ballot to serve either
years. moots
or by substitute ; they were liable to be em-
bodiedalight be
part of thebe removed from their families to any
employcee United Kingdom ; so that all their avocations
cure single
and
might be entirely interrupted for seven
gentle localities
moved from their lotucalrried'
men
wgitehvery precaution were taken to se-
out encumbrance, yet the very next
ggentle
year they
ithskeirthweicveeusncthryar and if embodied and re-
many of them might leave
inoenthe palish. He would therefore
withwhether they would like the
parishes to be chargeablethe expense of maintain-
ing the wives and familiesseorfvemailitiamen marched from
be
had
saaT embodied militia?
recoursew to during
such a force as waetuwlcala wanted
their own localities to
Such a proceeding should only be
the urgent necessities of and
oady amount of protection. With respect t recur© a
during peace was simply
tutes in the regular militia, where would a person pur-
chased,substi-
after nppearing at drill for his first twentan
days, be next year? His Noble Friend said twenty _eight
all England
was not composed of cheats, and they were not to sup-
pose that the men who were substitutes would not be
pear to fulfil their bargain. honest enough to rc-appear He
(Mr. F. Msute) did not fancy that all England was com-
posed of cheats, but he had this opinion, that the per-
sons purchased to serve as substitutes were very great
cheats, and in composing a militia in time of peace of
substitutes they would bo training to arms the lowest
scum of the population. To be sure, if embodied in
the time of war, and taken into barracks. and bubject to
constant duty under all the restraints ci the Mutiny
Act, these men might be made as good soldiers as
any, probably; but if they took substitutes in time
of peace, they would ge, a class of persons who
ought not to be trusted with the use of arms, and
whose services could not be obtained when they were
Hunted. That was a strong reason for not having re-
course to the regular militia in time cf peace. What he
waned to see established was a force which should be
trained for so many days in each year, and by degrees
s numbers, and which,
like large and extensive in its numbers, hl"c 11,
like the yeomanry of this country, with a trifling drill
might be made quite as effectual for all
raw levies that could be adopted. Oli
the
breaking purposes as any
out of
war on the continent or in any other
part
rendering it necessary to increase the military of the world,
this country, this fince would form a reserve trom whPower. of
ich
the army or regular militia might be
legitimately aug-

LONDON,

mented whenever it should be found necessary to.esta.-
blish the latter. In the course of the last war there was
a system of fines by which the men in the local militia,
especially were compelled to observe their engagements;
it was
asystemof fines, which were imposed on the
several parishes to which any defaulters belonged, so
that the
,parishes were made responsible for the
appearance of the men. With regard to the
non-extension of the operation of the Local
Militia Act to Ireland, he wished to observe
that it never had been extended to Ireland ;
and with regard to the regular militia, such
were the objections to the system of ballot in reference to
Ireland, that the militia in that country were all raised
by beat of drum. In like manner, if the present propo-
sition of the Government should be agreed to, so far
from their being any doubt as to the loyalty of the
people 'of Ireland, there would be no hesitation in
adopting the same system as had heretofore been
adopted. in arming the population of that country for the
protection of its shores, namely, the system of volun-
teer corps.—(Divide, divide.)
Mr. CFIA.RTERIS intended to vote with the Go-
vernment, as, he did not think he would be justified,
after all he hied heard, in voting to prevent them bring-
ing in the Bill which they thought necessary. If, when
the Bill should be on the table, it should seem not
likely to be effective, the House might then reject the
theroure. or endeavour to improve it.—(Divide, divide.)
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For Lord Palmerston's amendment 136
Against it ... ..• ... 125
•
• Majority against Government —ll
Cheers followed the announcement of the numbers.

Lord J. RUSSELL then rose and said—l consider

that the vote to which the House has just come is
tantamount to a refusal, on the part of the majority, to
allow the Government to bring in the Bill which they
have prepared. As this is a matter relating to the
internal defence of the country, and therefore of the
utmost importance, of course I cannot be responsible
for a different Bill, containing other clauses and other
provisions, which I consider injurious. Therefore I
relieve myself from any responsibility with respect to

that measure, and any other Member may be named
by the House to bring in the Bill,
Lord PALMERSTON (who was cheered on his
rising) said—l cannot help expressing my extreme sur-
prise—(Cheers)—at such an abdication by the Govern.
ment of their proper functions in this House.—(Cheers.)
I presunae that it was not without full deliberation
that the Government felt it their duty to introduce a
measure for the better defence of the realm.—(Hear,
hear.) The only difference of opinion between the
majority of the House and the Government
has been whether the measure should be founded
on the Act of 42 George 111., or the Act
58 George lll.—whether upon the system, of the
regular militia or of the local militia. The Noble Lord
has stated this evening that his measure was so nearly
the same as the arrangements of the regular militia that
it appears to me, and it bas appeared to the majority of
this House, not consistent, I may say, with common
sense, to retain the word " local" in the measure. The
Noble Lord admitted substitutes, though the House had
heard an eloquent explanation of the objections to that
system,—(Hear, and laughter.) He stated that his plan
would admit of their being called out in the case of war
like the regular militia. It I did not mistake they would
serve in every part of the United Kingdom; and the only
difference was the time for which they were to remain
embodied in case of war. But, I would put it to the
Government whether that is a reason why they should
shrink from the performance of their duty—(Hear, hear)

—and throw up, on account of a temporary and inciden-
*tat failure of principle, a measure which they ought not
to have proposed unless they thought it was really essen-
tial to the welfare of the country ?—(Cheers )
The SPEAKER—I should remind the House that at
present there is no question before it.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL--.-After what the Noble Lord has
said, I really think it is incumbent on me to say a few
words in explanation. The Noble Lord has said that
the measure which I explained on a former occasion and
this evening, is so nearly similar to a plan for restoring
and establishing the militia, that he wonders I should
throw up this measure. If that were the case, I own I
should think it was an unprecedented course, because
there was a certain difference which was only upon
some point with regard to the Bill, that therefore the
.majority of this House was to alter the words of the
title of the Bill, and thereby to imply a great change in
it.--(Hear, hear.) lam perfectly sure that if I were to
bring this Bill in on the principle on which the Govern-
ment had decided when the Bill was printed, I should
be told that that was not the Bill that the Noble Lord
I had intended, and that other provisions must be intro-
duced. I say is this a position for the: Government to
hold?—(Cheers.) I think I made great admissions
when I said that, with regard to all the details of the
Bill when it was before the House, I should be ready
not only to listen to any amendments, but even to sub-
mit it to a Select Committee for further consideration.
But, if we are stopped at the very threshold—(Hear,
hear)—if we are told at the very commencement—(Hear)
—that the House have no confidence in our measure—
(Hear, hear)—it is impossible for us to go on with that
measure.—(Hear, hear.) I hear a cheer to that obser-
vation, implying very clearly that the Noble Lord is
wrong in what he said—(Hear, hear)—and that it was
intended by this vote, and by putting the Government in
a minority at a time of very serious import, and with
regard to a very serious question, to show that the ma-
jority of the House had not confidence in our adminis-
tration.—(Hear, hsear.) I shall now, Sir, conclude with
moving that Mr. Bernal and 'Lord Viscount Palmerston
do bring-in this Bill.—(Cheers and great laughter.)
[ the House now
presented a scene of great excite-
ment and confusion, the Members forming themselves
into groups, and discussing with great vivacity the new
position of affairs. In the midst of this excitement—]
Sir BENJAMIN HALL rose and said—Sir, I cor-
dially voted in favour of the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government, because I thought that the course pursued
by the Noble Lord (Palmerston) who sits below me is un-
called for and unprecedented. I think it would have
been more convenient, and under all the cireumstances
more courteous, to have allowed my Noble Friend to in-
troduce his Bill. But having supported the Noble Lord
on this occasion, I cannot go along with him any further.
I gave my vote in favour of the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government, and I intended also to have given
my vote in the future stages of the Bill—if the ma-
jority had allowed it to be introduced—in conjunc-
tion with the Honourable Member for Montrose.
But I am not at all satisfied with the decision
to which the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government has now come, and I do not think that he
ought to call upon the Noble Lord to bring in the Bill.
—(Cheers.)* He has elated to the House that we re-
quire a militia. He, as the head of the Government, has
stated to the House that this country requires farther
defensive measures. Sir, Ido not agree in that. But
if he hiss stated to the House that we do require these
further, defences, then he ought either to give up the
situation he holds in her Majesty's Councils—(Loud
cheers)—or he ought to introduce his Bill. For my
part I hold that my Noble Friend ought at once to give
up the office which he holds.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and
Gallant Colonel the Member for Bradford said,. I re-
member, on a former occasion, I have a great horror of
a foreign force landing in this country, but I have a still
greater horror of a Conservative Government being in
power.—(Laughter from the Conservatives.) Sir, I
have no such horror. I should like to see them try
their hands at the Government—(Cheers)—and there-
fore I call on the Noble Lord atonce not only to abandon
the Bill, but to declare that he would no longer preside
over the councils of the nation.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL at once stood up and said
—Sir, I rise to say that I think I made my meaning
sufficiently clear—(Loud Ministerial cheers)—when I
said I took it for granted, as the result of the vote of
the House, that the Ministry had no longer the confi-
dence of the House, and that such being the case, I could
no longer continue—(Loud Ministerial cheers prevented
the conclusion of the sentence from being heard, but it
was evident the Noble Lord meant to say that he could
no longer continue to be the responsible adviser of the
Crown.) You, Sir, having said that there was no mo-
tion before the House, I concluded by moving that the
Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, be called on to
bring in a Bill; but, of course, I did not mean to impose
upon him that responsibility.—(Hear. hear.)
left, great body of the Members in the House then
motion
jr.eloai excited by
Limb hEie,sA crisisoß oN
uwFcholi ci.REhERoI occurred.
uNr r e.
SHIPS.
hvo w e
motion
aont bon
ato.rßfe
mn
rt
0.
bring in a Bill to enable her Majesty to abolish,
gogDI rfreee
nanr:itioeb evidentlyr
o't
introduce
diffOentetnilteial duties on on
ESTABLISHED CHUZI6-1611111
condition of leave was
LADS TONE,
in
communion
bishops, clergy, and
THE COLONIES. rekcaireciprocity,
°wl t;was.
8,
laity in the colonies',
England, from legal doubts orundliositatbsvith the Church of
ItUiSliTeties t
nee affecting
se ing the
e
management of their church affairs.,i,CHARITABLE
at length
e• for leave
interestingtil
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL in S'
—ll England
to bring in a Bill for facilitating and buluvin
duo administration of the charitable trust i
heof itnhtiesn dßeidi tob
but
to
after somewhatth
andinto
discussionWthael edetails
had just taken place, and
which followed, he did cot think that he shoeuld
justified in entering upon any statement of its provisions.sublet
At the same time, he might say that the Bill vvasth
same as that which had been passed by the other branch
of the Legislature last session. It was a Bill Of co-
siderable importance, and whoever might be responsible
, for its conduct in that House it should have his cordial
support.— (Hear, hear.)