The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-04 00:00:00

important. information, which were now paid out of it. I The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
With the exception of last year, there had not been since that the Government had no interest iu pressing the
1822 30 small a sum voted for secret service. The Hon. vote; but it had been cust,mrtry to allow precedence to
Baronet must bear in mind the great increase of the re- : the estimate for the British Museum. They could have
nations of that country with all
parts of the world, and put it first on the paper; but then they ewuld have de-
the multiplication of all those causes which required in- stroyed the privilege which it was the pride of the Hon.
formation to be obtained. That being the case, the Gentleman to avail himself of. The late Sir R. Peel
country had no right to look with suspicion on the vote and the Noble Lord (Lord J. Ressell), and greeter au-
for secret service. In a country of the great power and L 11061,14,3 than he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
had always accorded this privilege to the. Hon.
importance of England much less was expended for was, Secret service than in many of the large states efEurope Member for the Uuiversity (Sic R. H. Inglis) or America, as trustee
and that, he thought, was rather a cause for of the Museum.
self-congratulation as indicating the stability of their in. After e, few mores from Mr. L teBOUCHER,E,
stitntions. In addition to what he had stated, it must he Mr. STANFORD complained of the new arrangement
mentioned that not a single shilling could be expended by which the three classes of the atteudants of the Mu-
ptexseam had been amalgamated with ce under the warrant of a Secretary of State. Every reference to salary,
Secretary was personally responsible for the money ex- and thus an etteudant commencing
now under the new
Fended in his department; and, looking at
the timeliness arriangoerient at a minimum salary of 501. would not at-
Of
,9103 sum, the imparter= of the service, the manner in bin the maxentim salary of 1501. for a considerably
Which it read expended,
and the vouchers offored. at the longer eriod of yes r. n under th old sstem. Audit•office, with the securities for good administration Mr. GOULBUIIN e&d that theree y was no ground for
thereby insured, he could not think the vote could be dissatisfaction to the atiandaets under the new arrange-
' looked Upon with suspicion.—(flear, hear.) went, which had been adopted by the trustees in confer-
, Colonel SIBTHORP said it was the nature of a mity with the recommendations of the report of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to expend monoy, end his Committee of that ileum. That at-rang-meat was that
objections were not removed by what the Right lion, the etteedants should be paid by salary instead of by
Gentleman had stated. leas, and that, in accordance with the principle adopted
The CHANCE nor: of the EXCHEQUER said, on in most of the public offices, persons appointed to offices,
the contrary, the duty of a Chancellor of the Exchequer as attendants, should enter iu the lowest clads, from
Was to oppose the expenditure of money as far as he which they could rise by intelligence and ability to the
could.—(A laugh.) highest class. But the trustees, in making that arrange-
as
Mr. SCULLY did not think any account was required, went, stated that it would not apply to those .who had
they all knew how the money was expended. He been appeinted under tee old syotere.
Would ask seriously whether it was the Practice of the Mr. ANSTEY objected to the vote being taken out of
present Government to expend money in the payment its
lace. It was No. 12 on the votes, and i was on this
of editors of newpspaper in Ireland? The public and the occasion taken as No. 2.
t
Irish Members certainly had a right to expect that that Sir R. H INGLIS said time answer of hießleht Hon.
'should not be done again, although it was said to have Friend the Member fur the University of Cate bridge was
.4een expended in the cause of " lew and order."
a
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no pseelrft:etcbtelyresfoartiesraocutotrhye. i
nHdeu
i(gSeinr
cRe .OHf
t.hlengHlios)usteh;rew n dhimhe
"limitation in assuring the Hon. Member that her Ma- honed the Hon. and Learned Member would not think it
iesty's present Government had no intention of making necessary to interrupt the discussion.
`ally investment of that sort in the cause of "law and Viscount DUNCAN, for one, had not anticipated that
order."--(A laugh.) He appreciated probably as much vote No. 12 would be taken before vote No. 10.
as anybody in that Home could the influence of the After a few words from Mr. W. Williams, Mr. Star.-
' liress, but he had always observed this, that no newspa- ford, and Mr. Scully,
,Per whose support was worth having could be obtained Mr. ANSTEY moved that the Chairman should re-
by the employment of corrupt means. Could
hear.) port progress.
Mr. MACGREGOR understood that those payments The motion was, however, withdrawn.
-to the Irish newspapers were made, not out of the pub- 164,577/. for education in Ireland.
lie money, but out of the Lord- Lieutenant's private In rally to Mr. FOX,
Purse--(No, rw.)
Mr. NV ALPOLE said the system of education in Ire-
Sir DE LACY EVANS said, out of whatever fend land was intended to be a combined system. In Ire-
it was was expended, there could be no doubt that it was ex- vouring to carry it out certain membersof the Established
endedß for the geed of ' Ireland.—(Oh, and cries of Church complained that they were not partakers in that
) That he believed was the general opinion. grant. Another obj-ctinn was that every minister
The vote was then agreed to. of the Established Church who objected to tho
Oa the vote of 216,5091. for stationery, printing, and grant was precluded from any chance of participation in
binding for the various public offices-
Sir it. There were serious objrctions to the system, and
G. PECHELL objected to the large amount of the the answer of the Government was, that certainly, for
vote. In the dockyards ships were pulled to pieces for the purpose of encouraging education, they intended to
he sake of rebuilding them, and in the poor-Jaw office encourage applications from clergymen of the &ta-
uter:: tees far too much scribbling is constant corres- blished Church, as well as others, in respect to partici-
Pondenee,
pating in this grout, without at all excluding others,
Mr. G. HAMILTON said there had been careful Sir J. GRAHAM said it had been his misfortune to
economy in the stationery department; the vote had been (liar froni. the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
dins‘ -•
dins every year.—Vote agreed to. Dublin University (Mr. G. A. Hamilton) on former
elle next vote was 21,0001. for law charges, salaries, occasions with reference to this vote, but when he so
A • in the office of Solicitor of the Treasury:— differed from him he had to defend a measure of a
!....gr .
eeu to. former colleague of his, the present head of
The next vote was 17,7001. for sheriff's expenses, the the Government; and the injustice, if there
4t e
tru--olencAgreedies of
to. fees, and office of Queeit's Remembrancer, were injustice in the matter, as alleged by the parties
n adverse to the grant, was an injustice which was well
lt
D u• next vote was 8,5301. for expenses of Insolvent weighed from time to time. When the Earl of Derby
enters Courts. was his (Sir. J. Graham's) colleague, he was not only
ce...4r2- WILLIAMS suggested that the duties of these the author, but the steady defender and supporter of
uLert wrotehould be discharged by the caunty court judgee. this measure; and he never admitted that there was any
agreed to. injustice in the mixed grant.—(" Hear, hoar," from the
inccin. e next vote was 121,163/. for law expenses in Scot- Irish Members.)
Mr. WALPOLE had not stated there was injustice in
6eetlzd. COWAN observed upon the item for procurators the mixed grant. What ho said was, that it was an in-
.thou '. that it had increased instead of diminished, justice that those who objected on couscientious motives
wati fib they were now paid by fixed salary, which it to the mode in which the grant was distributed, were
penretuonght would have the effect of decreasing the ex- precluded from the chances of preferment merely be-
cause they did not give the system their support.
l. r. G. A. HAMILTON said the salaries had been Sir J. GRAHAM had understood the Right Hon.
et; on an average of five years' fees, and the Gentleman to take two objections—the last of which was
the office only took effect lifter the present holders of not with reference to the grant, but to the distribution of
ttetnee vacated; it was entirely prospective. patronage. The other allegation was, that there was in-
eeotri.) WILLIAMS remarked on an item of 1,000/. for justice in the mixed system of education itself, in which
...".r. _ Bills, of which only five had been brought into 1,700 of the clergy of the Established Church could not
rlitrnent lest year. This was a small item, but the participate. Now, he (Sir J. Graham) confidently eon-
Zg eeate of such items caused an increase of 40,0001. on tenth d, as the Earl of Derby had hitherto confidently con.
. etatt a dyhole vote over last year's estimate. There was a tended, that if they departed from this system of
educe-
iryt disperity too between this arid the corresponding tion, based on its present principle—it they attempted to
we tor Ireland.
rectify that injustice, which, according to the Secretary
I,‘„Lalr• G. A. HAMILTON said the supposed increase of State, was inherent in a system of mixed education—
. erthenly apparent,. As to the item of 1,000/, the result they must come at once to separate grants in proportion
e arrangement . the gement had been a payment of 17,000/. to to the population of Ireland, in which case he was very
et. Consolidated Fund.
much mistaken if, the Established Church of Ireland
par',W.ILLIAI4B said this only showed that less vvas would gain materially by the change. This was
b. !ins year for doing nothing. not, however, the moment for discussing this question
The
agreed to.
further.—(Hear, hear.) As to the other point— distri-.
prodsiele next vote was 57,710/. for expenses for criminal button of patronage—the observation of the Right A/relations and other law charges in Ireland.
lion. Gentleman did not certainly apply to the Govern-
twee.: WILLIAMS again observed on the disparity be- meet of the late Sir Robert Peel, inasmuch as that Go-
"WA 1.4 this vote and the last, although more crime was vernment felt it to be its duty to recommend for promo-
iriotd eaist in Ireland. Lion to the episcopal bench in Ireland three bishops who,
to agreed, Iv . to. if he mistook not, were unfortunately as he thought, op-
itilituliu,ext vote WaS 36,5001, for the metropolitan police posed to the system of mixed education, and who, al-
kr. Vil, ' . though they were elevated to the episcopal bench by the
the p r ILL I A 141 S animadverted upon this vote, and advice of Sir Robert Peel, nevertheless thought proper
Paid a°Puftion of the expenses of the force which was to use their episcopal patronage against that system.
kr.
(!Tiot the local rater. Lord EBRINGTON—When the Right Hon. Gentle-
agreed to RAMILTON explained, and the vote was man (Mr. Wi;Ipole) spoke of the exclusion of the clergy
The o_•
of the Established Church from all hope of preferment,
tue,i„
Paid eXt vote vim 240,000/. for certain charges for- he seemed to forget the enormous amount of patronage
It out of the county rates.— Agreed to. in the hands of the bishops of the Established Church
of eriatz.t rote was 16,1961. fur expensos of inspectors in Ireland, and a great part of which had, in past times,
been sedulously employed by them for the encourage-
-oakr' WILLIAMS
observed that the estimate was not reent of resistance to that combined system of education
atindi ern, at it ought to be. He also observed on the which successive Governments, down to the present time,
atelieed .""utio (if to labours of the prisoners. For in- had thouttht it their duty to defend.
onl in Mille,
yl/ eoll the net amount of profits was Mr. LABOUCHERE admitted that it was not'con-
th ' Per labour'
e pwsee ,ereas in America the produce of venient to discuss the question at that moment; but
balanc. era paid all the expanses and left a having the deepest sense of the importance to Ireland of
bit Mr. SL „
the mixed system of education, he could not refrain
natr '''''EY remarked that free labour was worth from stating that he had heard with alarm the languages
111% 'eo
America. ' hadh 'd by the Secretary of
whichbeen ei State that
Zat.. se-44141skliMS7--No, it is not. night; and he entreated the Government to take care
the Prise es wid said the difficulty was in preventing bow they tampered with a system of education on the
free lie 4er3' labour from coming into competition with maintenance 04 which the future prospects of Ireland
Si-our _to el
I
iet inn 'al..) essentially depended. .
pads
h__ v zdRNEY thought that in the prisons, the Mr. WALPOLE was in the recollection of the Com-
teat _
auleat of prisoners was not sufficiently severe,
so mittee, but he did not think one word had escaped from
tee_
.P roes of ten rather desired to be sent there. The him from which it could beinferred that the combined eystol
totrctg prisons was to deter from crineo, but how would tem of education was intended to be superseded —(Hear.)
(if p,.• J-et be attained if persons were, not at all afraid On the contrary, he said, in answer to the Noble Lord the
•weei?
kr. Member for London, on a previous evening, tome weeks
the SCULLY said, on the contrary, he considered ago, that there was no intention on the part' of Govern-
great ob-
teterna . Ject of prisons was not punishment, but went to interfere with the combined system of national
telly mottoll ; and this object was ( tarried out wonder- education in Ireland. He said then, as he said to-night,
reformed he Continent, so that pre o. tiers left the prisons that he thought, when a grant of public money was made
e,,_ and improved, and seldom visited them. It for purposes of education, that it was bat reasonable
tega on this ground desirable to encourage the useful
ozl)Bl.o.yment of the prisoners, espe &Ally every portion of the community should receive a share
the younger of that grant—(Cheers)—and that it was worthy of
kir. ANSTEY said he found. that the expense of consideration whether those who, by conscientious mo-
hole were alarmingly on the more:test Some time ago tives, were excluded from a share of that grant at this
e e .
h..... °Patntee had been appointed, the report of which moment, should not be included in it in future?—
eal, however, produced no practical result, but which (Cheers.) He also went on to say—on the ground of
er0e.,.3
la '''',l why the expense of prisons increased. The fault injusde th the did think it was an injustice, when
the '.members°aof the Church of Ireland from conscientious
on Principally with the magistrate s„ who too easily motives objected to that grant, but were found agreeing
heti," of " moral improvement," dispensed with thye,
sugunldalbleothfer questites of eneral olic, that the
law—fluduthnnls imposed. Some limit should be placed b
nuo-te dg patronage
they woulrde
moral iin—is POw"
of
the magistrau. Wherever thea merely on t the t grounds sy s
te
In that
of
prejudicePorr °Meat system had bele n followed to the mixed edueation. That he believed was all he said—
increased. Prtion . discipline, expo.inses of gaols had that was all he meant to say—and he did not think one
Mr• leemon word fell from him to the effect that the Government
lbatory prince said that in his owns country the refer- intended to supersede in any way the system of eduea-
tbat with.lticiee
V had been successfully carried out, and tion in Ireland.—(Lear, hear.)
%a, rrcitten the last six or eight yea:et criminals, having Sir J. GRAHAM—The Right Hon. Gentleman had
tine. 4
pU their appearance, rarely :made their appear- told the Committee what the Government did not in-
etr esecond time.
tend to do, and he now asked him, as a matter which
kid '").`4IINEY deprecated the employment of prism
workh to the people of Ireland was next in importance only to
dismsom use labour at rates of remuneration which the question (Maynooth) recently brought before the
i._
~.. independent labour.
House by the lion. Member for North Warwickshire
Set. r W• JOLLIFFE remarked that the increase ob-
_eats, .
(Mr. , what was the intention of the Govern-
eteastfte In the estimate was to be ascribed to the in- •
16431 difficulty experienced in disposing of our con-
meat with a view to remedy the injustice of which the
Ut there was every reason to anticipate the - Right Hon. Gentleman stated complaint was made. He
test?4B4f,.l Working of the new system. sac- wanted to knew wherein was the injustice in the present
of
pa hh BURRELL defended the patting prisoners mode of distributing the vote? He understood the Right
e.inrittterative employment. Hon. Gentleman to state that, in his opinion, as now dis-
tributed under the mixed system, there was an injustice,
katec tndt SCOSELL was of opinion that if the refer- and that that injustice ought to be remedied. It was not
sesaoY sYstem was to be made effective it would be ne-At unreasonable, therefore, to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
Prese'eY to make the prison diet less attractive.
alupet,rt the food supplied in some of our prisons was man, since he was of opinion there was a practical in-
justice in the present mode of distribution, and intended,
0 111 to that enjoyed by the independent labourer,
on the
h •part of the Government, to adhere to a common
%to ' u• BELL took the same view; and after a brief
ersatiou sc erne of education, and to one general mode, how he
intended the members of the Established Church should
etitea STANFORD, deprecated tho leniency shown to
. Mr.o b still retainod.
participate in this 'grant, and the mixed sys'tem of edu-
defe,"24B in the Reading and other model prisons, but
lhat3e,d their employment at their trades on the ground
WALPOLE could not do better than repeat the
-.eh:, tesaened the local rates. observation he made in reply to the question of the
Noble 'Lord the Member for. the City. of London on a
04 ~"te was then agreed to. • •
former night.
der rote of 261,522/. to defray the charges of Go-of considerationoWhtehtahteorceasion he said it was worthy
oseet
ktr. prisons and convict establishments at home.,
might not be applied to thesseemmeempebretrisehof the rite ANSTEY expressed his belief that the punish-
England and others in. irelaud—for there weereCthohetuhregcrhrsa °inn;
eaptieet,of transportation had proved a failure, the more,
Ireland who equatiy objected to the mode of distribu-
&eld 'ally since the discovery of the Australian gold
gen—whether some pot.tion of the grant might not be
el.
applied to those who
.sl,r.om conscientious motives ob-
Ir 'ST.A wt.
~,,, • -,.............„,y said that
jetted to the noble in which it was at present distributed
.._-uhaider carefully the the Government ought to.
taenweinetea„ ofi causes which had led to the im
uernher of persons criminal in this country. In 1805, the
part of the Government as to the mode in which thatthe
deserved
but he never intiutentd'that there was an • plan '
wince "
tl:itl or admitted tem btnezdaand Wales committed to
was to be done. He meant thate the quesitionvy
o.oo_
it in 1821, it was 16,500
had ;,was ~ , 40, and in
; in 4,600; in 1815, it was
consideration.—(Flear, hear.) The term of e -
'el
het intended to apply to the refusal of preferment 1848, it was 30,300. Crime
httio2a.es increased three theses as fast as their PoPu° paronage to porsoas merely on the ground thaetnttllaneyd
teritis.of The Government ought to look to the improve- would not give their adhesion to the mixed system of
elutes the minds ott. ylionntho, also of those of the working education in Ireland. That was an injustice of 'which
~,,_ , and the pro ect
_f t heir health in great towns.
..4•ne vote was then agreed to. he thought they had a right to complain, and in answer
&se ,
att.. Ono/. was granted for defraying tbe exnnn to the question of the Right Hon, Barmiet he might say
-detnses that the remedyfor that injustice the
was to distribute
it "iding the maintenance of prisoners in county gaols, ' Phil%
the nthropie instituions, and in lunatic asylums and patronage fairly .
favour of, the combined sys-
amongst those who dissented from, as
expenseslo attending, the removal of convicts.
1,041/ ' well as those who were in
believed
and he that the
With , • was granted to defray the expenses connected distributed since her Majesty's
253'LLe transportation of convicts. patronage had been so__ , _
tem of national education,
Convict- Was then proposed to defray the expenses of present Government had come into, P. 0 wer.—(Lleer.)
'he establishments in the colonies. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON w.is quite prepared to pro-
'''. ANSllnOre EY complained of this vote being 70,0004 pose the vote, under the
. eof what
full understandi in the House, in consequence Sir than it was last year.on that there was a
that it
v
fell from h. Right time ago,
Iva, . JOLIFFE said that the increase in the vote 0. .18 Hon. Friendimpresssiome
beencauscd b• testablishments which had -55
for. lithe new convict rani tention of Government to take the vote into
considon, and
Zar. v",led Western Australis. whether the . to adopt so
had ta ten
vitts t ILLIAMS comlained that the cost for con- upon h' , 'resell
I.3;stesu which Sir J. Graham ,
in th'iu Western Australia t times what it was 0- to assert, was a united sys,em
IS
county
to enter into
r not, for that w me means of ascertainking
Su. a.„y.
renee of opinion prevatstileadPinoinltrilepnodri.—w(hlliceharrteievated)iftH.';
!Clst k„. 4--AIC-INGTON explained that the increised was unwilling - lathlitettf' by the present being the first year of the es-
-I.lPvat i —(An ironical cheer from th
t laret„. -- in \An stern Australia which was built fore Irish elernbers)—bocilt'su.
a ht..eu men should be proceeded with .on a Tics'
be thotr ht that all tbi , 4 discussion, upon the subj, et
eat trid,t, number of convicts than 't
occupied it; hie that 6 1.- h • ,ugsconsidered, it was not clesira-
tete, " exPeuse would t a present • •.-,• hd in sec- Yeti's. 0 course be diumtela e tion of this nature at thet particularreement —(ntear,
ettefitcti vote was then agreed t hear.) Ile repeated, ho was quite will
in - -mg to propose the
vote upon the understanding, which b - •
° nth" L'allen* to, us also was 160,0004 tor
e believed the
House had corns to, that the Governme t • • •
n ' nal signified
and furo.ar
°I. `' "" of 52'3431' for the fmlarleS tolti !'N-Pen'es ,oe nieeititei et' teldoe rite, ele poem-win one ete _ .
te attend: Tau:mate
sue we,
out
of
itsaLIiTAXIS complained that the vote was taken system was a coattaiued system. or note te.. r ,:3s
orders lof considering whether some mode might not. be- de-
-1

vised by which to remove the conscientious objec-
tions entertained be a considerable portion of the in&q.
bers of the Established Church in Ireland. With re-
g tad to the course which ho himself bed taken upon the
question, he rem aatetred stating in that House, on one
occasion, that thesystem of education in Ireland was
one of the institutions of the country, and that, consi-
dering the uumber of -schools in connexion with it, it
would not be consistent with what was right and just to
divide the House against it, but that he thought such
modification might be introduced into it as, without sub-
verting tae system, would remedy the injustice of which
a large proportion of the Protestant population of Ire-
land complained.
Mr. KEOGH said that tho two Right Hon. Members
for Dublin Ideivexeity (Mr. Napier and Mr. G. A. Ha-
milton) had been most consistent, determined, and un-
changeable opponents of the system of national educa-
tion andohat if the first-named Hon. Gen-
tlealati present, he would not okay his (Mr.
Keoghde) assertion that he had been also one of the
most bitter o:its opponents. The Hon. Member who
had just addressed the Committee stated that ho was in
favour of a " modification" of the system, but that was
exactly. the same expression which was applied to
every other subject—religious, social, commercial,
or political, upon which Honourable Gentlemen ()1:1 the
Treasury benches had to touch.—(Hear, hear.) Ho as.
serted that two-thirds of the Derbyite candidates in Ire-
land had dettinetly pledged themselves not to support
national education as it existed—not to support May-
noeth—but to repeal the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill of
last session.—( Hear.) This, he wetted admit, was per-
haps only a modification. But what was the modifica-
tion that was:wanted ? He knew that Government dealt
in negatives, end that they could enumerate a long
catalogue of thiege they did not mean to do, but he
wanted to know what they meant to do? He had heard
that it was easential to have consistency in public men.
It had been generally admitted that the Noble Lord at
the head of the Goveroment bad formed and marked out
the present system .of national education in Ireland.
But when the H.enourable Gentleman the Member for
the Universil brought the same question forward
some time back, the Noble Lord (Lord George Ben-
tinck) was the principal speaker aeainst the motion,
and that system of which Lord Derby was the reputed
author. He wanted to know whether that was to
be considered in the light of a modification? If every-
thing was to be subject .to modification—Maynooth—our
commercial system—and- the present question, the most
important question possible to the people f Ireland,
then he was bound to say there was no confidence to be
placed in public men, and the sooner the present gentle.
men who held caps vacated their posts the better it
wou:d be for their consistency and the country.
Mr. WEIITESIDE vindicated the consistency of the
Right Hon. Gentleman. He considered, however, that
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Keogh) ought
to have avoided thb argument:are ad kominem, as, if he
did not mistake, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
entered puolic life as- a member of a Conservative
body, and as a Conservative.—(Hear.) A change had
" come o'er the spirit of his dream" and the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who had joined a totally opposite
party, now, advocated totally opposite principles with
as much talent and as much honesty as he had for-
merly advocated Conservative principles.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hight Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon, and
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in their remarks had
used the term the people of Ireland. If the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman meant to assert that he represented
the entire population of Ireland, ho must beg to dissent,
and though he was desirous of paying due respect to the
Roman Catholic people of Ireland, yet he must, at the
same time, declare that the Protestant and Presbyterian
part of Ireland were entitled to the attention of that
House, for they represented a large proportion of the
wealth, intelligence, and commerce of that part of the
empire. What had been stated respecting the act of Sir
R. Peel, in promoting eminent men to the episcopate in
Ireland from England, formed a strong circumstance in
favour of the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary of State for the Home Department that this
question ought to be reconsidered, and that something
ought to be done whereby 1,700 members of the Established
Church in Ireland might be able in their parish schools
to reed the Scriptures. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Sir J. Graham) read the debate on the question, he
would have seen that one of the most 'learned of those
prelates (the Bishop of Ossory) had not asked for a re-
versal of the syatem, but had recommended a reconsider-
ation of it, so as to allow clergymen of the Established
Church in Irelaad tai do as clergymen of the Established
Church did in England. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
the Secretary of the Home Department, had not dis-
entitled himself to the respect of the Roman Catholic
people of Ireland for what he desired to do. The Right
Hon. Gentleman did not desire to withdraw a sixpence
of the grant from the Roman Catholics; but he wished
to devise some change which in his (Mr. Whiteside's)
belief, if carried out,. would improve the system both in
Ireland and Scotland. He begged to remind Hon.
Gentlemen that out of the number of pupils in the na-
tional schools there were between 36,000 sired 40,000
pupils members of the Church of Rome.
Mr. KEOGH begged leave to answer the statement
made so openly by the Honourable and Learned Gentle.
man, that die eMr. Keogh) had entered that House as a
supporter of the Conservative party. Now he had
very frequently heard that same statement-made, but
not at such a time and in ruch a manner as to permit
him to give an explanation and contradiction. It
ought to be known to the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman, as it was certainly known to many Hon. and
Right Hon. Gentlemen whom he was addressing, that
such a statement was wholly and entirely unfounded.
The Hon. and Learned Member for the University of
Dublin knew that the-statement was untrue; he had the
most entire and perfect reliance on that Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's honour, believing that no consideration
alin:
erw.picihieceon:
n swooteauldueinddicutenetehdimanted trtarvuetlh oenuit
tered that House at a peculiar time—he entered it when
codfnedth.—at(
to be a supporter of the Right Hon. Baronet the late
Member for Tamworth was to place himself in a position
of great unpopularity in Ireland. He believed he was
the only Mari in the country who ventured to put him-
self in that
.position. He would, however, claim no
cow's° he should pursue, and be followed that course.
merit on that ground. Conscience dictated to him the
Replaced prominently in his addresses, which appeared
in every newspaper in Dublin, the fact that he
avowed himself to be a distinct, direct, nnequivo-
eating supporter of the commercial and political
policy recommended by the Right Hon. Baronet, and
that Right Hon. Baronet having been driven from power
by those Hon. Gentlemen whom he saw opposite by s
combination which it was unnecessary to describe,
was perfectly prepared to support the policy that Right
Hon. Baronet advocated. He might say the records of
that House and the recollections of Hon. Members would
prove that to that commercial policy ever since he had en-
tered that House he had firmly and continuously ad-
hered ; and further, that he had never given a vote in
contravention to that policy.—(Hear.) He should be
sorry to recriminate with Hon. and Learned Gentlemen,
but, as far as his policy and consistency were concerned,
he would say for himself that he never was the person to
go into private quarters and private circles and hold
himself out as the supporter of a policy he afterwards op-
posed. He did not profess in early life to be an advocate of
a reform in the representation of the people. Ho never
held out to the people that be preferred republican to
monarchial principles. He did not go down amongst a
portion of the people of Ireland, with whom republican
principles wore a matter of history, and hold himself out
as a person prepared to carry those principlei to their
uttermpat limit.—(Hear.) Ile took his principles from
a more moderate level. He saw the Right Hon. Baronet
tho Member for Tamworth was prepared to do justibe
to the people of Ireland, and he gave him his eupport.
He now declared his honest conviction to be that the
Right Hon. Baronet was worthy of support. He had
sat in that House for five years, and the records of the
House would bear out the assertion he now made. The
Noble Lord, once the leader of the party opposite, had
admitted to him that he had not entered the House as a
Protectionist and turned . Free-trader. He had de-
clared he was a Free-trader. He adhered to that
opinion, and if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
reflected ho would not have dwelt eon such topics, the
more especially if he looked to the Hon. Gentlemen who
sat on his left.

ported, and whether they thought it should be permanent,
or Whether they were in favour of modifying it, they
were all prepared at present to support it as it existed.
It could not be--supported without the passing of this
vote, and he therefore hoped the Committee would
agree to it.
After a few words-from Aft w. WILLIAMS, the
vote was aereed to.
The CHAIRMA.N then reported progress, and ob-
tained leave to sit-again this day.
THE CO ANION LAW PROCEDURE BILL.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL having moved the
second reading of this Bill,
Sir A. 'COCKBURN expressed his regret that one of
the most important features in the measure, us recom-
mended in the report of the Commissioners, had been
opt in the House of Lords, but by certain
authorities out of that House. The feature to which be
struck out of it,
alluded was the provision for getting rid of what was
technically known as forms of actions which were, he
believed, too often a stumbling blocit, in the way of
justice. But, at thO same time, ho felt: persuaded that
the Bill, even as it stood, would' be found one of the most
important measures of legal reform which had been le-
trodaced during the last -half
century. He should, how-
ever, add that that was, in his opinion, only a first in-
stalment of what ought' to be accomplished in that
direction. They had yet a good deal to do before they
could remove all the technical difficulties which
formed such serious obstacles to the due admi-
nistration of justice. Ho believed that they should go
further than they had, ever yet attempted to go,
and that they ought to
appoint a farther
Commission--a mixed Commission of the common law.
and equity members of the profession—for the purpose
of inquiring into the propriety of amalgathating the two
systems, and effecting a general codification of our laws.
He had no hesitation in seeing that those laws were at
present in a state which was disgraceful to a civilised
country.—(llear, hear.) They were a sealed book to the
subject and it would require the whole life
o
self acquainted with them.—(Hear,r,
a man of
tomake realm,
himself
. the
hear.) It was not enough that they should improve their
procedure; they ought to codify their laws, and to make
them intelligible to the people.—(Hear, hear.)
The Bill was then read a second time, and was ordered
to be committed on Monday next.
THE MASTER IN CHANCERY ABOLITION

Mr. WHITESIDE said, that if the Hon. and Learned
Member asserted that he had expressed anti-monarchi-
cal opinions at any time of his life, he could only tell
him it was a fiction. During the twenty years he had
been at the bar, he had always supported what he be-
lieved to ba sound Conservative principles. The Hon.
and Lesrned Member had only done what some of his
countrymen had done before him, and had drawn on his
imagination for his facts.—(A laugh.)
Sir J. TYRELL regretted that the discussion had de-
generated into a personal debate. He did not think
the Hon. and Learned Member for Athlone was in a
condition to lecture Protestant gentlemen on that side
of the House, or the Government, on consistency or mo-
difications of opinion, unless he could show that he him-
self had been consistent in his personal conduct as a
Member of that House. He had a strong recollection
that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman entered that House
taking on himself the " moderate level" of the Carbon
Club. How came it, then, that the Hon. and Learned
Member was now on the other side? The fact was, that
the Hon. and Learned Member looked up to a superior
power—to the Synod of Thurles and to his Holiness
the Pope, both of whom had denounced the mixed sys-
tem of education as taught in the colleges recently es•
tebliahed in Ireland. If injustice were done to a largo
portion of the Protestant people of Ireland by the mixed
system of education in question, it was not surely im-
proper in the Government to consider a remedy for that
inj us tie°. —(l3 win )
Mr. ANSTEY said the question before them was not
the consistency of Hon. Members but what the Minister
meant by modification. Modification was understood by
the Duk© of Richmondethers of the party opposite
to mean this restoration o
on andf protection, and he wished to
know what modification meant as applied to the national
Ireland, system of education in
He wished to know if
a sum necessary to support the 1,700 sectarian Church
schools were subtracted from the grant whether a cor-
responding sum would be given, to the sectarian schools
of the Church of Rome.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERb wished
to remind the Committee of She questionthem.
That question was the vote far the combined
education in Ireland, and as that vote had been re"ep°2eed
0 of
by the Government, an i as far as he could collectP Hon
Gentle,non opposite were prepared to maintain that sp...
tem, the best tntog they could do in the present state of
Parliament would be to support the vote.—(Hear, hear.)
A groat deal had been said es to the intentions of the
Government on Ibis subject. He might be permitted to
inform those lion. Members who had addressed the
Corraniltee, that when the Government had to propose
mpg, in a sulject of so much importance as that
any e le .
teie o Tee (to ,o in a U,,MMIL:'a
of '1:11.4 were all anxious that the
combined' system el` education should be properly sup-

FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 4,

reasons had altered their opinion. The existing tele-
graph had not occasionally done its work so well as
could hs wished, but representations were instantly and
properly attended to.

C. W. SIEMENS, C.E., spoke to the system of
sub-humous telegraphs in Prussia. The first cost of
the under-ground system, of which there were 30 miles
in Berlin, would be de rer than the suspensory system,
but quite as efficient.
Mr. W. IL 6miTH, news agent, Strand, had had large
experience in connexion with the working of the elec-
tric telegraph, and considered it was now done as effec-
tively as it could be by a large system with regard to
correctness and dispatch. The Electric Telegraph Com-
pany supplied the provincial papers with the earliest and
most important intelligence at far less than any reporter
apdr
veagatAtnatgocuouusldararffaontgdontoendto
withit. Hibies
company.
The adya mutually
The committee hero adjourned.

BUSINESS. OF THE SESSION,

It has been fondly believed for some time that some-
where about the third week in this month our distracted
and worn-out Legislature would be released from its un-
profitable toils. Government having pledged itself to
appeal to the people at the earliest possible opportunity,
that pledge was interpreted to mean that by the end of
June, at the very latest' we should be saying "yes" or
"nu" to the question of Free Trade, by the choice of our
representatives. Lord Derby, in popular estimation the
very pink of chivalry, was party to this arrangement,
aud, if the terms were not very precise, it was presumed
that ho would be all the more anxious that there should
he no disappointment. It is scarcely necessary to ssy
how widely this polineal understanding entered into all
public and private affairs; how many eager consitucn-
cies were preparing to fight it out in July, and how
many, both caedidates and electors, were ceicaleting
on a holyday in August. They who cherished
these delusions will find by the proceedings in the
Commons last night how little trust is to be re-
posed in that proverbially rotten foundation—a Ministe-
rial promise. Instead of three weeks, which were to
suffice for the few odds and ends that remained after the
settlement of the Militia Bill, there is at least work for
three months, even if the whole of that time is to be
rescued from idle debates, and realized for the business
of the nation. The melancholy fact has been gradually
dawning on the minds of those who ventured to count
the notices on the list, and the measures on their way
from the Upper House, but there is a general feeling
that to announce a danger is to precipitate it; and even
now, when we talk of business to be done by the Com-
mons, we shall be thought to assume rather unnecessa-
rily that it will be done, and that the House is under an
obligation to do it. Hence the small amount of confessed
alarm and suspicion awakened by the growing tail of
Parliamentary arrears, and hence the very great alarm
and the more than suspicion which the portentous sum
total will now certainly inspire.
It required no ordinary mind to grasp the enumera-
tion of the Herculean catalogue, and pat it before the
public in a tangible form. Few, if any, bat Sir James
Graham, could so much as tell the House of Commons
what it has to do during the next three weeks. The
occasion was given him by a speech on the conduct of
public business by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
which that ingenious gentleman managed to construct
in the form of an urgent appeal to all sides of the House
not to make unnecessary motions, nor to introduce irre-
levant topics, but to assist Ministers in their laudable
desire to get through the necessary work of the session
with the utmost possible dispatch. Sir James Graham,
with his usual suavity of manner and strength of par•
expedite public business, but retaliated their
pose, did not dispute the anxiety of Ministers to
plea for forbearance by asking a like regard for human
capabilities in the selection of the measures to be pressed
as of urgent necessity. The list of measures so pressed
is absolutely overwhelming, and we almost recoil from
the sight. We can only venture to point out the heads
of this gigantic review;—" There are no less than 27
orders of the day,' " says Sir James, " upon the paper
of to.day." There are four notices of motion to be
made before going into a Committee of Supply, with
little prospect of such motions diminishing, now that
independent Members are allowed fewer opportunities of
making their own suggestions, There is the Common
Law Procedure Bill, with 230 clauses, and requiring the
tiniest discussion both on its principles and on its details.
There are two Bills, the results of a commission,
in which Sir James had a place, for the aboli-
tion of the Masters' offices and the improvement of the
mode of administering justice in equity. There is a
Bill relating to suitors in Chancery, and another for the
alteration of the law respecting wills. The New Zea-
-1 land Bill it had been proposed to take this morning, but
as this morning there is to be a Committee upstairs on
the renewal of the East India Company's Charter, and
another on the repression of crime and outrage in Ire.
land, the New Zealand Bill could not possibly have
justice done to it at an hour already so preoccupied.
There is a Bill which happens to be just now of great
importance, on the " hereditary casual revenues."
Then there is a Colonial Bishops Bill, a Bishopric of
Quebec Bill, "and a New Zealand Bishopric Bill,
severally involving the most interesting and delicate
questions, such as " clergy reserves" and episoopal
jurisdiction. There are the renewals of the Eng-
lish and Irish Poor-law Board, and various other
important renewals that must be made, and cannot be
made without considerable discussion. Then the Ad-
miralty has introduced a Bill to alter the entire mode
of paying her Majesty's fleet. There is the Metropolis
Buildings Bill, with 79 clauses; an Extramural Inter-
ment Bill repealing the last, and professing to be a sub-
stitute for it; a Water Supply Bill, and a Sewers Bill;
and there are 200 votes still to be taken in Committee of
Supply. Meanwhile, with all this mountaih of work to
be dispatched in some fifteen or twenty working days,
Ministers themselves have. created a pest that devours
days by wholesale, that takes a morning at a meal, and
question, at the rate hitherto allowed to it,
attacks the next day with unabated appetite. The
Maynooth
would itself suffice tor the whole session, and while it is
in hand it is useless to reckon on any part of this mass
of real business being properly discharged.
With Sir James Graham we cannot but admit that
many, nay most, of these measures are necessary; and
we also remember that almost invariably at the end of
there is such an accumu-
lations
sjait
fle
n a
on IBillslo abt
another.etfho er
Parliament,eßbeugtiat hneinpresent
s e that a
casetthe
hasy ts painful this unavoidably
peculiarity, that Ministers stand pledged to wind up
the session as quickly as they could, but have, notwith-
standing, caught at every opportunity and pretence of
delay. Entirely through them Maynooth has become
the constant, or, at least, the intermittent plague of the
House, for without their encouragement Mr. Spooner
would long since have collapsed to his.usual dimensions.
It is quite transparent, and all but admitted, that they
think it their game to keep Parliament sitting, doing
something or nothing, as long as possible. There aro
certain things that must be done, and that must be done
in a hurry; so, if Ministers contrive to leave them out

of sight just now, and amuse the House meanwhile,
they will appear to be relieved of the odium of delay.
The whole House of Commons will be compromised in
the last push, and few will consider whose fault it is that

matters have come to that extremity.

A® to the mea

sures of legal reform, certainly we should have wished
to see them made laws as early as possible, but all con-
..

siderations must give way to the paramount importance
of our constitutional rule,—Government by a majority,
and, we may add, to the not less important rule of poli-
tical honour and veracity." If these measurts cannot be

canvassed and sifted as they deserve in .the course o 1

this month, they had better be postponed to the long
session which is to begin in the autumn, and to be con-
tinued, with a simple adjournment over the Christmas
holydays. To-night, or at all events on Monday, we
are to have from our Chancellor of the Exchequer an
account of the wonderful method in which all this busi-
ness is to be safely and thoroughly dispatched. We
shall then see whether Ministers really contemplate ex-
tending this do-nothing session to its usual length. If
we are rightly informed, however, they have long since
given up that idea, and we may still expect a dissolu-
tion in the present month.— Tim'es.