The Sun.
London, England, 1864-08-20 00:00:00

ncbie earl to whom we also owe a great deal. I say we owe
him a debt if it is only for one thing—that we are not at
war with :he United States. It is now three ,e cur years
since that terrible struggle has been going on, an errcr
of the smallest kind might have been the causs of a terrible
war between Great Bri..ain and the Ua el States. He
has acted with a degree of tact, coura.;e, coolness, and
calmness, and conciliation where proder, but, at the
same time, firmness where necessary. The result has
been that he has, in some way or another, done that
which was almost the most difficult thing conceivable,
viz:, he has kept this country at peace. (Hear.) Now a
great deal is said about intervention, and whether this
country ought to interfere, or ought not, in foreign affairs.
Ido not think you can draw a very strong line. Ido not
think you can say that in no case whatever should we in-
tervene, and I am of opinion that the occasions should be
very rare when we intervene in au foreign matters ; yet,
at the same time, from the experience I have had, I could
not say that in no case whatever would I interfere in
foreign affairs. (Hear, hear.) And I say this with special
reference to several instances which have occurred of late
(Hear, hear.) [The speaker illustrated his meaning by
reference to Denmark, Italy, and Poland, and then
Proceeded to allude to the Ashantee affair and New
Zealand. With reference to the latter he said—
The whole disturbance now going on at New Zealand
arises more or less out of the rapacity of the colonists
for land. They are discontented with what they have

got, and are always trying to get more, and the

Governor of New Zealand, before the present Governor Grey,
instead of treating the natives in accordance with the terms
of the treaty called the Treaty of Waitangi—namely, upon
a footing of having the rights and privileges of English
subjects—they were treated on an altogether different sys-

tem, and in fact with different laws ; or rather the laws
were broken in their case, which laws would have held good
with Englishmen, and their land was taken from them by
force. Well, they ceased to believe in us. The New
Zealand people are not savages in the sense in which many
men are savages on the African coasts. They have their
own schools, their own ministers of religion, their own
churches, and in fact they are a highly civilised people when
you consider the difficulties against which they have to con-
tend. (Hear, hear.) They ars not to be treated as savages.
(Hear, hear.) They perfectly understand what they are
about, but they cease to believe in us because they have
been treated with the greatest possible injustice ; and a more
heroic people I do not believe exist on the face of the earth,
(Hear, hear, and applause.) We shall have a great deal

more trouble, I am afraid, with New Zealand land, as I
said before, it is a very likely thing that 2d in the pound
will be added to the income tax in consequence of this mis-
management of colonial affairs. It is owing to mar system,
that we do not interfere until after the mischief had been
done, and an attempt to punish those who held office for
their conduct is simply useless, and we are obliged to go
on with new men. There is a class of subjects in the HOUSE
of Commons which I believe are more interesting than
any others at the present time. I have spoken of the
ballot on former occasions. Although there are a great
many interested in that class of subject, yet there is
another class far more interesting to a number of people
in England now than at any other time, I mean espe-
cially matters connected with the liberation of the
human conscience. There are subjects of this sort
arising every day, not only outside the Church of Eng-
land. Dies are intolerant at subscriptions for mere form
sake. They will not be coerced according to another man's
will. They will have a will of their own, so to speak. This
is expressed by the manner in which various bills are
brought into Parliament—for instance, there was the Uni-
versity Tests' Act, the Act of Uniformity Amendments
Bill, and various other measures, which have been from
time to time introduced. Amongst others there is a bill
which I had the honour of introducing myself, and which
will very likely come on again, I mean the Affirmation Bill.
(Hear, hear.) This bill will have the effect of relieving
those ministers in the Church or out of the Church who
conscientiously object to read the burial service—and others
who have an objection to the retention of parts of the
Liturgy. Some of those are conscientious men—most of
them are men who have a very strong belief in the sub-
stance of the matter to which our Liturgy has relation ; but
at the same time they cannot bear the tyranny to which
they are exposed in being compelled to accept doctrines
which they cannot believe in. Soule years ago people took
these things very lightly. Ido not think that 100 years
ago a minister would even have thought a second time
about the question,but he would have accepted it--of course
with a good living. I have had the pleasure this session of
voting in favour of those measures, and I think you will
find I have voted in the same sense as I have heretofore
done. These are subjects which earnest men care more
about at present, and a very large section do not care about
subjects of suffrage and the ballot. In speaking of the
ballot I must say I am still strongly in favour of that mea-
sure—(applause)—and I must say this of the ballot, that
it is a very curious thing, I have noticed that nearly always
a defeated candidate becomes favourable to the ballot—(hear
hear)---or if he was not exoctly in favour of it
before, but had a sneaking kind of liking for it, he
becomes all of a sudden a great convert to it. lam not
quite sure whether a learned gentleman recently defeated
in this county did not confess that he was more strongly in
favour of the ballot after the result of the election. I will
not mention his name, but if he will allow me, as an old
member of Parliament, to give him a hint, I venture to
offer him one from this arena, and that is, let him recon-
sider the question °laurel'. rates ; and I think, in another
year, if there is a dissolution, his chance will, possibly, come
nearer success—(hear, and applause)--because it has been
shown that compromise is hopeless. But now, with regard
to the ballot--which, I say, people are so apt to become
converts to—Lord Palmerston, I think, spoke of the ballot
as all nonsense ; but I cannot see why secret voting can be
all nonsense, when you consider that the men who votes,
votes in the interest of the public, and the public ought to
protect those who are performing any good for the sake of
the public. If Lord Palmerston says nobody ought to do
anything in secret, and that everything should be done
open and aboveboard, I will ask him what he should say if
I was to propose that all the Cabinet Councils should be
subject to the inspection of the public ? (Hear, hear, and
applause.) It might be very useful and instructive to us

have heard remarks that in respect to some great contro-
versy on foreign affairs the Cabinet has been divided in the
proportion of six to seven. Frequently one'hears of this
sort of thing, and it may be very instructive to the British
public to know what the reasons were for inducing those
changes in their opinions—why it is that a Minister is one
day for war, and the next day he comes into the Houle of
Commons and votes for peace ; or, being in favour of peace
comes down and votes for war. (ifear_hear.) It will not do
to say that in no case shall secresy be permissible, where a
very great interest is involved in the preservation of secresy.
How about secret diplomacy ? One half the mischief we
have suffered from our national debt is said to be due to
secret diplomacy. I know that is the theory of some. I
have no doubt some of the Ministers are very strongly in
favour of it, but when we come to secret diplomacy as re-
gards the ballot, for protection, then we find those men who
are so much for eecresy saying, "No ; we must have it all
open and aboveboard." Still, lam bound to say the ballot
is not a subject which is advocated with a great degree of
earnestness in the House of Commons, I venture to say so.
I will tell you what occurs behind the scenes. I have been
present at many ballot debates, and I have noted that there
is rather a tendency to amusement from beginning to end.
There are very few speakers--perhaps two or three—and
those having spoken you hear the cry of " Divide, divide,"
in order that it may be over before the victualling hour of
half-past seven. That does not look like a question about
which the people are very much interested, and if the elec■
tors believe the ballot is a measure that will do good service
to the liberal cause they must alter the constitution of the
House of Commons. They must require the house to be
more sincere and resolute as regards measures which affect
their support. At the present time I can assure you it is
not the case that the ballot is looked upon with any strong
feeling, and I believe a great number of Liberals, who are
not in their hearts opposed to the ballot, are very shaky
with regard to some of the reasons in favour of it. I tell
you the truth. I have been a ballot man after an investi-
gation of the subject for a great many years. (Applause.)
I took pains to analyse the subject somewhat about twenty-
one years ago, and I have taken pains to form my own
opinion, and I cannot but think that all parties would re-
ceive advantage from th 3 adoption of the ballot—(applause)
—therefore lam not going to be feichless to it. (Renewed
applause.)

Aa ELECTOR. asked the hoa baronet for his opinion en
the law relating to Scotch marriages, having special refer-
ence to the late Yelverton case.

Sir J. TRELAWNY replied—That is rather a difficult
question for me, I not being a Scotchtuan. I will confess
that the authorities are very strong on both sides, even in
House of Lords. I cannot see how I can pronounce a very
satisfactory opinion on so delicate a legal point—(hear, hear)
—but I must say I think the marriage law is in a very un-
satisfactory condition—(hear;—because we find that a mar •
riage appears good in Ireland when celebrated according to
the rites of the Catholic Church, and not good in England,
and perhaps neither good in England or Ireland, yet good
in Scotland. Such a condition of affairs as to the uncer-
tainty of the law, I think, leads to great immorality, and if
I saw any way to any steps being taken to remedy the evil
I should only be too anxious to assist my friend in the views
he evidently holds. (Hear, hear.)
A vote of confluence in the hon. baronet was afterwards
passed.

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