The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-14 00:00:00

that they could not have a Reform Bill ever session,
reform ii session. • measure; and it was under a direct promise that the sub-
Why did the Noble Lord then not carry out this
ect of the small boroughs shou'd be taken into consideration
movement to the fullest possible extent, and then there at an early period that the Bill had been suffered to pass
would have been an end to the agitation on the subject. without an amendment.-(Hear, hear.) The oratory of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman was generally of a very de-
He rejoiced to hear the Learned Lord say that the people
clama tory character,ehad stated that a murderous outrage
without any particular attention to the
of Scotland had made such good use of the franchise. It
details a
was not a privilege but their right, and what he wanted
lovfe sasssi of
committed
hm had
n, where e committed a national school-
enjoy the right. lie only a was the
ished he could live twenty master, leaving it to be inferred that that cause of
facts.
on H a
gistrate on returning from a court
was that they should go a step further, and let every one
years longer to agitate and he a thorn in the side of the the attack, when the fact really was, as the threatening
Noble Lord until he conceded to the 40s. freeholder the notices he had received showed, that the attack was of
right of voting. Still there was some good in this Bill, and one of those agrarian outrages arising out of disputes con-
he should support it. What he wanted, however, was that cerning land.
every municipal voter should have tbe right ot voting Ur. GROGAN was surprised to hear it stated that a
for Members of Parliament, and that there should be promise had been given by the Government to reduce the
franchise from 81. to 51. There was certainly a proposition
only one registration, and ho would not rest
to that effect made on the occasion, but the influence o
until he obtained both these concessions.-(Hear.) the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) was thrown into the scale
The greatest defect in all these Bills was the absence of against it.-(Hear, hear.) So far, then, from any promise
any clause which established triennial Parliaments and being held out to that e ec ~thefacts of the case warranted
effect., t
vote by ballot.-(Hear, hear.) au intention quite the converse.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE wished for some technical Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the Attorney-General
explanationothf
ethdeistiliilsion was proceeded with., which was given by the Lord Ad- for Ireland (Mr. Hatchell) was perfectly justified in what he
vocals, and had said. He had not alluded to any statement that the
Mr. STUART was surprised that such a Bill as this franchise would be reduced from 81. to 51., but to the general
should have been introduced, if, as the Hon. Member for wish expressed on the part of the Irish Members, that a plan
Montrose said, it was likely to give rise to an annual should be introduced into the Bill in question for adding
other towns and boroughs in Ireland, which were declared to
agitation on the subject of reform. He wooed, have a small, but whieh would have a smaller, body of
however, suggest that the representation of the electors under that Bill. In answer to that proposition he
counties of Scotland should be more adequately (Lord J. Russell) had said there were objections to it- that
adjusted to the extent and interests of the population it should not be adopted hastily; but he had promised that it
than it was. Why could not tile counties of Scotland should receive the consideration of the Government. It was
be divided into divisions like those of England? Such to that his Hon. and Learned Friend had alluded; and he
a measure would improve the representation of was perfectly right in hi ~ recollection of the circumstance,
Scotland, and he hoped his suggestion would not be lost and of the views of the Government. Now, when they had,
sight of. in accordance with their determination to deal with the whole
Mr. EWART thought a 51. qualification ought to be subject, to take cognisance of the various measures introduced
from the year 1837 to the present time relating to the repre-
made the measure of voting both in counties and sentation of thie country, they had to consider whether there
boroughs. anything in the Act of 1850 requiring amendment.
Mr. MACGREGOR should support the Bill; but, wltraisswhoanui‘liembbeerreemeatetrhedat that at the time many of the
nevertheless, he thought it tell far short of what Scot- instead of the franchise being
land had a right to expect. He concurred with the Hon. extended it would be restricted by this Bill, for that the 81.
Member for Newark, that the large counties and cities franchise would diminish the number of electors. The Se-
a Scotland might be parcelled out into divisions. cretary for Ireland had a contrary impression ; but when
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. they came to the effects of the measure it appeared that
NEW REFORM BILL FOR IRELAND. whilst by former returns there were 11,993 electors in the
Sir W. SOMERVILLE, in rising to move for leave to boroughs, by the last return there were only 8,040-a reduc-
bring in a Bill to extend the right of voting for Members of tion of nearly 4,000, and coming to each particular borough
they found that the number of electors in each were only as
Parliament, and to amend the laws relating to the repre-
sentation of the people of Ireland, said that the question of follows : -Athlone, 181; Bandon, 209 ; Cashel, 211 ; Col-
raine, 222 ; Dungarvon, 314 ; Ennis, 143 ; elallow. 143 ;
Col-
the Irish franchise having been so recently under the con-
New Ross. 171 ; and Portarlington only 71. So that
sideratiou of the House-(lronical Protectionist cheers),- whether they looked to the general numbers or to the
the Bill he now proposed to introduce would not deal so ex-
particular number of electors in each borough, it seemed
tensively e ith that subject as it would have done were it not
reasonable, when they had the subject under consideration,
for that fact. The Rouse would remember that in the
to make some arrangement by which there should be a
year 1850 (Another ironical cheer),-it was his duty, in
consequence of the almost extinction of the county franchise larger body of electors in the boroughs, and thus there was
in Ireland, to submit for their acceptance a Bill for the a prima fade ground for introducing the measure. He
must say that he thought the discussion on which the
amendment of the representation. The House would also
Hon. and Learned Member for Enniskillen had chose to
remember that at that period the measure to which he alluded
introduce a sneer at the Attorney General for Ireland, with
underwent very} great discussion, and he believed there was
scarcely
a Gentleman in the House who was not a view to producing some laughter in the House, was hardly
fully convinced that the time had arrived when an occasion on which it was decent or proper.-( Hear,
a reform was absolutely necessary of the existing hear.) It was certainly the case that the first law officer of
franchise. At that time the county representation the Crown had gone down to prosecute parsons who, from the
for Ireland gave about 97,000 electors; that was evidence laid before him, he was led to believe was guilty of
to say, there was that number of electors on the register, a most atrocious murder, and it certaiuly had happened that
though the actual number was considerably below it. He no person had been convicted. If there hat' been a failure of
had introduced a Bill in the year 1448 to place the county Justice in that respect, it was a very lamentable subject.-
franchise on a new basis of ratin, but that Bill was subsea
(Hear, hear.) It was one which ought to be a matter of con-
g cern to all Members of that House. If life and property were
quently withdrawn. In 1850 ha introduced it again, and
had the satisfaction, with the concurrence of the House, of rendered less secure in that part of Ireland, it was a subject
finally passing it into a law. The effect of that enactment
-(Rear, hear.)
that should affect every person who heard it, and he did not
being, as he had already
upon the representation of Ireland might now be judged of think it an occasion for an idle sneer at a political opponent.
from the returns which had been laid upon the table of the
House. Previous to the passing of that measure the number Mr. REYNOLDS regretted that the Hon. and Learned
of county electors upon the register in Ireland was 27,000, Member for Enniskillen had introduced gal, and bitterness
into the discussion. He might have taken another oppor-
the bona fide county electors really amounted to. The state tunic of bearing angry testimony against his own country-
of the county franchise there at the present moment was as men; he ought not to have described them as purjurers
observed, a far greater number than
follows : - Instead of the 27,1e0 electors who were on the re- murderers, and unworthy of the enjoyment of civil rights.
gister before the Act of 1350, the effect of that measure had Mr. WHITESIDE-I deny it.
been to increase the number to 135,64 b. --(Hear.) He be- Mr. REYNOLDS-He was glad the Hon. and Learned
of the House, he should now bring in, was not designed to
Gentleman denied it ; but what, then, was his meaning when
lieved, moreover, that the machinery of the Bill had worked
boroughs in he said that if they reduced the qualification for the jury
satisfactorily, therefore the Bill which, with the permission
Panel to Si., Ribbonmen would be empanelled who would
interfere in any way whatever with the county franchise.-
a widely-different aspect. try one another, and then they would see the result? With
(Heard But the state of things with regard to cities and respect to the Bill, why was it not ineorporated with the
English Bill? For Scotland there might be a necessity for
Under the registration system, before the existing law was a separate Bill, because the law of Scotland was so different
Ireland presented
passed, the number of voters upon the register for counties front that of England, but there was no such necessity in
ot chits, and counties of towns, and boroughs in Ireland, the case of Ireland. Why, also, he wished to know, was
was as follows though, as was the case with the county there not a provision relative to freemen voters in large
con-
stituencies, the number of bona fide electors was, in reality, towns. In Dublin there were 4,000 of those freemen, who,
much less. The numbers which appeared at that time on notwithstanding the principle that representation should be
the register were-for counties of cities and counties of towns, based on taxation, could vote without paying any tax what-
-21,863, and for boroughs 11,995; whilst the number of re- ever. The Bill, however, as far as it went was a step in the
gistered electors at present upon the rolls for counties of right direction, and he should support it as such.
cities and counties of towns was 20,253, and for boroughs Mr. C. ANSTEY complained of the different systems of
only 8,046. Thus, so far as the effect of the Bill of 1850 registration in both countries-in Ireland it was self-acting,
was ,concerned, it would be seen that it had not in- while in England it was necessary to make application to
creased the number of voters in these places; but that, on be put on the list of voters. The two countries ought to be
the contrary, a considerable diminution had taken place Put on the same footing in that respect.
as compared with the register of 1850. N 'w, it was Mr. E. B. ROCHE said he approved of the Bill. It
undoubtedly intended that the Act of 1850 should was not common sense to say that a comparative ins•g-
extend the number of voters, but, instead of doing nificant town like Enniskillen should have a voice in that
so a decrease had been the result. The proposal con- Rouse, half as potent as a great agricultural county like
tamed in the Bill, which he hoped, with the permission of Cork. He (Mr. Roche) was glad that an analonous Reform
the House, to introduce this evening, would therefore be to Bill to that of England has been introduced for Ireland;
reduce the borough franchise in Ireland from an Si. for it was a measure very much needed. The limitation to
rating to a 51. rating. It would be further observed, 400 in Ireland, and 500 in England, was practically the
upon reference to the returns on the table of the House,
and that the number in same. He hoped, however, that the Bill for Ireland would
that the number of voters in many of the boroughs ii, be carried through both Houses, pari passe with the English
Bill. He (Mr. Roche) had hoped from the speech of the
tlhreelacnodunwtieass
oefxoctetetedsinaguldy
csomunaltlie;s of towns was in every in Hon. Member for Inverness on the introduction of the
stance above 500. Therefore it was not intended to take English Reform Bill, that a change had come over the
any measures whatever, further than the reduction of the party to which he belonged; but he was afraid from what had
voting gealitication from an 81. to a 61. rating so far as re- fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member who had spoken on
garde the counties of cities and the counties of towns; but as tke other side, that a change had come over them in this
regarded the towns where the number of voters was in many respect, and that not daring to refuse reform for England,
t
instances exceedingly small, it was proposed to apply the they had resolved to make Ireland a battle field to decide
same principle as the Bill brought in by his Noble Friend once more the battles of party in Parliament. He warned
(Lord J. Russell) applied to England-a principle which wathem, however, against that course, which they and their
it
recommended when the BM of 1832 was before the douse- children would regret, and hope]. the Irish Members would
and associate with such boroughs certain towns in their never consent to make an onslaught on the liberties of the
people of Ireland for party purposes. While generally es-
neighbourhood situate in the same or an .djoining county.
pressing his concurrence in the broad principle of the mea-
which would have the effect of greatly increasing the nuns-
sure of the Government, he guarded himself against being
ber of voters. He proposed, therefore, in every instance
held finally committed to it, especially as neither the English
nor Irish 'Reform Bills was before the House. It would,
where the number of electors now upon the register did not
amount to 400 to associate with the parent borough one or
however, receive his most careful consideration. He was not
more towns in its vicinity in the same or the neighbouring
satisfied that the present county franchise in Ireland, for in-
county, and so increase the number of voters. By reference
stance, was satisfactory; for it was based on the valuation
to the returns before the House, it would be seen that this
for the poor-law, and it was well known that there was no
provision of the Bill would affect every borough in Ireland,
with the exception only of Belfast and Newry. He would
auniformityot,theretooref,vhatlehuneantiiofonrmin, thatw hecno
itsun thryasis
not at present enter further into the details of the Bill, and The
was franchise cgoaui could
he considered. lrish county franchise as too high. But
the provisions it contained for registration, polling, and the
still, believin the. measure to be a step in the right direc-
rest of the necessary machinery. The Bill would not be a
tion, he should give it his support.
very long one; and he trusted that the plan it was intended Mr. NAPIER would not have interposed in the debate
to carry out would prove satisfactor top the House. only that some of the views put forward by his Hon. Friends
Ala WHITESIDE said he had no desre to resist the in- the Members for Enniskillen and Inverness had been per-
verted or misunderstood.t The Hon. Member for Inverness
solving the difficult problem of what would best remedy the had notsuggested give every four hundred electors the
evils of Ireland. But he might congratulate the Right Hon. power of representation; for, if that principle was carried out
Baronet upon his being the individual who had discovered how representativesmanoyrdhado en would be elected for London ? The
the necessity of reforming his own Reform Bill, though it
was as yet scarcely twelve months old.-(Laughter.) HeFriend them Member and Learned for Enniskillen; but every
(Mr. Whiteside) had examined the returns relative to the whoknew his Ho
petitions presented to that House, and had found that the one
he _ a_. and Learned Friend knew perfectly
well that was wholly incapable of the construction put
number in favour of the Irish Reform Bill of 1850 amounted c
on his
dobservations.-(H ear, hear.) If he (Mr. Napier) un-
to one, and it was signed by 49 persons, whilst there was one
also presented against it signed by 34-thus giving a ma- derstoo thearight, argumentbadhe only
his Honourable and Learned
jority of 15 in its fa,vour.- (Laughter.) For 1851 he found Friend
he
Nobl3L
Ireland whether was prepared to follow out consistently
the return nil, and he firmly believed that it would be impose
his own principle-namely, to reduce the qualification of a
Bible to find in Ireland any body of individuals, in a respect- juror to that of a u elector, or to enable Si. electors to sit
able position of life, who would set their hands and signs- He (Mr. N
on Juries. .
theapier) cast no reflection on the con-
tures to a petition praying this House, in the present condi-
tion of Ireland, to extend the franchise to the 51. householders. duct of thenevertheless, ueies onthought late trials in the north of Ireland,
He thought so, because they would be of opinion that it was but
_t it a perfectly fair proposition to
consider
to
oe
arlquestion whether the man qualified to return
a measure which would transfer political power from those
sub-
who were best qualified to those who were the worst quail- Memb'nevrsolvinP.F the glory
who would have to deal with
tied to use it.-(Hear.) The Noble Lord had introduced his jbeec ts i
disqualified for thegary and greatness of the empire, should
jury-box, or vice vlosil ? The argu-
English Reform Bill on the ground of the increased circus ientWas a fair argument;
lation of newepapers and periodicals, and the growing intel- fled for one that hs and he (Mr. Napier) was satis-
ligence of the people. But nu such reason as that could be not in the sli hest d Hon. and Learned Friend in using it did
urged in support of this measure for Ireland, for the Noble administrationg of • degree seek to cast any imputation on the
Lord himself had heretofore described the newspapers of the Bill before the House,
in Ireland. - (Hear.) As regarded
louse, he (Mr. Napier) felt bound to say
that country as uniformly advocating sedition and disorder. that he did
That ground failed, therefore, in reference to his (Mr. anticipations with
regard it with any very pleasant
respect to its operation in Ireland. The
W hiteside's) unfortunate country. He readily admitted Noble Lord who governed that country said on a recent oc-
that in Ireland ehere was some increase of knowledge; be- ca .ion that what Ireland wanted was peace and repose-that
cause it had been observed by the police that the Ribbon men' might sit
down and pursue their several occupations
y* This
notices were written in a much better style than ler- calmly. Bill would have a contrary effect to that pre-
merly.-( Loud laughter.)
The spelling was better, the dieted by
the Lord-Lieutenant as a necessary for Ireland.
orthography was more accurate, and, if the Noble Lord took He (Mr. Napier) considered, moreover, that as the qualifica-
the trouble, be would discover the reason of it to be that
It*
tion for
had been last year at its present
some of the schoolmasters
to
Paid out of the national fund had
been the writers.-(Hear, hear.) At this moment a ma• figure,clisurt h)1; the consent of all parties, there was no ground now
In respect of the small constituencies, he did
gistrate in Ireland was suffering the most excruciating not think
the Bill would improve the representation ; at pre-
turture, he having been shot because he had committed a
sent these
croughs did not return the worst members.
schoolmaster to prison for writing Ribbon notices, Mr. M, LLAGLI said the 81. franchise fixed last year
and showing some activity in patting down the had been
Ribbon conepiracies.-(Hear.) The registration under the
On that
subject of a long and bitter debate in that
that occasion the majority of the Irish people
Act of leso had just been completed by the barristers, and House.rotest d ainst the 101. franchise. The Noble Lord saw
110,000 persons added to the constituencies. Now, these
his error,
electors had not yet had the opportunity which a general
told thator, and
hastened to rectify it ; and now they were
the Irish Members submitted to the 81. franchise.
election would give them of exercising their privileges, and aairt y
-two Members for Irish boroughs had voted against
testing the effects of that measure of reform. In particular the" sum of 81. in favour of a lower sum; while '2B Irish
instances of borough elections there had been no corruption,
county Members had voted in the other direction. He con-
because there had been no Coppock.-(Loud laughter.) Yet
therefore
the Right Hon. Baronet now came forward to condemn his 11 ed the Bill a step in the right direction, and he should
_ir.
j give it his support.
own measure, and declare that it was necessary for the
peace of Ireland to reform the Reform Bill. But not only b
of last* YOUNG said his remembrance of the agreement
had there been an increase in the constituencies, but a franchise year was, that the borough franchise and the county
diminution in the Population of Ireland which counted by bound
not assimilating, her alajeety's Government were
millions. What, therefore, constituted the necessity for the . to take up the matter this session. He did not think
present Bill? Who had called for it? Nobody. Who ex- Il
t e union of small towns with the existing small boroughs
pected ; who desired ; who wished for it ? No one. He would be satisfactory in practice as in Ireland; unlike Eng-
protested against the principle of the Bill. The system land, these towns were in general widely apart. Nor did he
of adding towns and boroughs together, for the purpose of believe that the addition of those towns would make the
making up a constituency, had never existed in Ireland dur- borough constituencies any better than they now were ;
mg the five centuries that she had possessed representative inasmuch as they would be formed of people who had lost
institutions_ and the only effect of this alteration would be their land in the country, and who had crowded to these
to give power to those who were the least qualified to use it. towns to live. He was of opinion that it would be far bet.
- ( Hear 1•e Upon one point, be must say, he congratulated ter to give an increased representation to the large towns
Vne Right Baronet. The separation of the Irish from the and boroughs. As regarded the qualification, he had no ob-
geu
Reform Bill was highly judicious, and highly sig. jection to it.
nifical nt also. That, h dee meant whate ' Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
he appre en , ver might
LIGHTI t G THE HOUSE.
be the fate of the English Reform Bill, the Irish Reform Bill, the House be
as a s, Sir J. PAKINGTON then moved that was
pirate measure would be rejected by the good sense .
with candles in the future. If the House
and discernment ' lighted wax
of the House.-( Hear.) There was another
point uthe to be lighted with gas he would prefer that
prefer it to be
Pon which he wished to put a question, either to should
had a horrid
Right Hon. Gentleman or his Hon. and Learned Friend to Dr. Reid;• but if it was not, he
op-At present they
Posite (the Irish Attorney-General), who had just returned, lighted with wax candles.
The plan he proposed
flushed
with his ' f the Special Commission
triumphs, from at
smell in the house, and a bad light.
Mo2aghan would remedy both.
t see how the House could accede
7-(Loud laughter.) In reply to a question which
he la • Mr. BROWNE did nho
bad resolved that the lighting,
.fl_p ~. to his Right Hon. Friend the other evenieg, he was
to the propositioen a t
'tilstatione of the House should
.be under one
i formted that it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
mento introduce a Bill respecting the jury warming, and v n
law of Ireland. and as, moreover, they had ordered Dr. Reid to send
Now, the present jury law in Ireland followed the first Re- person ;
estimates to that effect.
Reid did
form allin Lord dsyatattew said Dr. Reid did not understand the
, and under its provisions the 101. elector became
qualified' --resolutions of the House, whether he was to send in an esti-
aet. also to serve on juries,. Did the Government, then,
the House and library only, or for the Committee
established, en that precedent, mean to lower the qualification then mate for
rooms. He (Lord Seymour) had
ished, and found the new Jury Bill on the basis of the Si. and refreshment advised
franchise, which lutions. It would be inconvenient
Bill? His firm belief was that if that were aenounced nothing now to enter on the question. Besides which wax candles
remained for the weak and the innocent but to prepare for would be of no use if the passages were to be lighted with
death, and for the strong and the powerful to defend them-the carbon, of which Dr.
gas; asßeid complained, would
selves against a confederacy so powerful and united that his come in from the lobby.
Hon Noble
‘,lll. and Learned Friend (Mr. Hatchell, the Attorney- Sir D. NORREYS charged the Lord with recom-
"e "al for Ireland), though accompanied by a corps of mending Dr. Reid to send in such a report as wouldmake
counsel, was unable to obtain the conviction of one man. resolution of
, the . the House ridiculous, because he
Mr 14
• --ATCHELL said the observations off o Hon. and posed to them. was op-
Learned Friend had been made with a double view. He had
d Mr. HERBERT called the attention of the Noble Lord
endeavoured to draw into the discussion some suppose the condition of the strangers' to
expectgallery, where
Bill about •
jurors, and it was most unreasonable to
e"ion mightposibly hear what passed, but could see nothing nearer
that he (Mr. Islatchell)should then enter upon the discuss
than the
might be brought mace on the table. He also complained that-
of a Bill not before the House, and which
also seemed strangers were not accommodated • with any place to wait in,
in or not. The Hon. and Learned Member
had d• but
to intimate that
the Chief in the measure of their lives.
covered some gross inaccuracy or oversight
reforming the Irish representation which was passed a few , After a few words from Mr. S. How.as, and
The I Sir. a • , Mr. Hume,
years ago, and which it was now sought to remedy. , • -ULRIC).
ignorance of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman on : Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say he was in favour
the matter must be attributed to his not having been a ,
hof wax candles
c; hut he thought it would be advisable to
Member of the House at the period referred to. He would ave the wholecase before the House before a decision was
inform him, then, how the case stood. At the period in arrived at.
demand by several of Ike Mr. FOSTER moved for a return of the tolls collected by
question there was a strong
Irish Members that there should be engrafted on the Bill the corporation of the City of London at the several gates
then paind the provisions embodied in the present and avenues of the City for the last three year* eudilcig the