The Sun.
London, England, 1852-12-17 00:00:00

residing in' Ireland, and yet there was no other deer- in that recommendation, was I justified in recommending
ence between the two, for the Irish fundholder could that the repayments should take their place in the ways
transfer his stocks to the English funds when he pleased, and means ? These are the two issues in this matter bo-
and the owner of English funds could do the same with fore the committee; I trust I have stated them fairly.
regard to the Irish funds. The rule laid down by Sir R.
I Peel was, that no deduction was to be made to the Irish must advert briefly to the origin of this department of
d
the Public Works Loan Commission, which on the former
fundholder when in Ireland, but when the fund crossed
the Channel a deduction was to be made. It was with occasion I adverted to cursorily. I observed then that this
that exemption the Chancellor of the Exchequerproposed department had its origin in circumstances exactly the re-
to deal. Then came the interesting and constitutional verse of those under which it now exists, and was occa-
question of whether they ought or ought not to subject,the sioned by causes which now no longer operate. At the
101. householders to the tax paid by the 201. house- Peace, there being a surplus population and a deficient ca-
holders, and he had been unable to discover a shadow of
j
argument during this debate to justify the Parliament of pital, the labour-market throughout the country being sud-
this country in exempting that class from the operation
denly disturbed, and the labourers let loose on society, the
of a tax which was admitted to be a just one, which was amount of unemployed •
labour being aggravated by a body
established because it was a wise mode of obtaining re- of 200,000 seamen and soldiers all at once disbanded, the
venue, admitted of no evasion and was
easel collected. Government of that day felt it necessary to take some ef-
y
(Hear.) No clear or satisfactory argument had been fectual and artificial means of employing that surplus
offered to show that it was a constitutional thine- that population. It is not necessary for us to enter into any
some 350,000 electors, holding political power, should discussion as to the policy or impollcy of such a proceeding.
net contribute to the direct taxation of the country. Probably political economists might not approve of it—
(Cheers.) The hon. and learned gentleman (Sir A. probably statesmen under circumstances so urgent, though
Cockburn) had said that they contributed something to
they might not approve of it, might have been forced to
indirect taxation. Well, but so did the 20/, house-
was founded, which, by the credit
holders ; and upon what principle were the 10/. house-
have recourse to such a measure. But under that impres-
holders to possess the franchise, and outvote the former, sloe-
th, t establishment when they did not pay direct taxes ? Upon what prin- of Exchequer-bills issued by the State, raised money and
employed '
ciple was a large body of men holding supreme• political that money in what is called "public works."
power enabling them to tax other people—why were they That system went on for, I think, nearly 15 years. Nearly
not to be equally taxed themselves ? Mr. M'Culloch had 3,000,0001. of Exchequer-bills had been issued, and those
been quoted upon this subject, and this write; in the which had been so issued for that purpose were not of so
course of his observations upon the house tax, made a favourable a character in the market as the usual sup-
reflection bearing upon the very point before the commit-
tee, recording an opinion, ply of Exchequer-bills ; and it was found necessary
would dissent, that he wasfrom which no unprejudiced or convenient to terminate the system. In the year
man in this country
u
to apprehend why or wherefore the political Erse:-
t 1842, the point from which we depart, the account wasakel of that fund. appearedlt at that time that in round
were at the same time to be exempt from contributing to
chile was to be given to the 10/. householders, while they
numbers the sum of 3,000,0001. had been raised by Exche-
the house tax. (Cheers.) No authority could be quoted suer bills thus issued ; that of that sum 2,000,0001. had
against this opinion, and if this, as he believed, were the been paid off, and that 1,046,0001. remained at that time
great question now before them, why should the hon. " unsettled," if I may use the expression ; and to close the
and learned gentleman imagine that he would argue the transaction they were funded. From that period, by act
committee out of their convictions by telling them that of Parliament, it was arranged that instead of loans raised
the 101. householders were so averse to the proposition, on Exchequer-bills, the same commissioners, for the same
and certain boroughs so objected to it, that the members purpose, should receive a sum of money to the amount of
for those places would be afraid to look their constituents 360,000/. a year from the consolidated fund. The sum
in the face if they voted for the increase of the tax ? This
which we have to deal with is 300,0001., for by a subsequent
principle, if carried out, would be a deadly blow to Par-
arrangement 60,0001., a portion of that sum, was transferred
presentations representation
ions
would ; but he trusted that such re.
not influence the committee, and to the use of Ireland only for public works ; and with that
that, if they were of opinion that the tax was a just one, Ido not propose to deal. I hope to put before the com-
they would vote for extending it, and would not be af- mittee clearly these dry details. Well, now, sir, the right
fected by other considerations than by a sense of what lion. member for Carlisle has dilated in almost moving
was due to their own judgment, their own self-respect, terms upon the benefit of that fund, especially to the corers.
and to the good of their country. (Cheers.) try-gentlemen. He has eulogised its good administeetas„
Lord DR UIVILANRIG reminded the committee that the unpaid commissioners, whose respectable
'and re-
the Scotch agriculturists, at least, had not been in the by
-
spected names he read to the committee; not should he
habit of publicly asking for relief in consequence of le,gis-
have forgotten, though he omitted it I am sure only from
lative changes, and he would appeal to hon. members
whether Scotland deserved to be singled out in order inadvertence, to have recorded, also, the, tames of the re-
whose perform-
to be victimised by this budget, for the purpose of al- spected officials connected with that'
be overlooked lowing the right hon. gentleman to extend to some few ance of their duties should not, I e;asnk,
bo upon other sub-
and favoured localities remission of the malt tax ? (Oh, this moment, whatever our opinien may
oh !) Yes, but he objected to an extension of the jects. lam willing to adr.at that as far as those unpaid
house tax to enable the Government reduce half the commissioners and those sedulous officials are concerned,
duty upon malt. Up to the present moment few
farmers in Scotland paid the house tax, but now very there are few blots in che administration during a long pe-
rind of that fund by them. On the contrary, I think they
few would escape either that or the income tax. The have deported tnemselves with unimpeachable asshl
budget seemed to him open to great objection, and it and care. Sir, the right hon. gentleman passing oin,uhas
should' have his opposition. (Hear.) dilated upon the importance of this fund, especially to the
Colonel BL AIR believed the budget as a whole had country gentlemen. With this fund, accordine in him
been favourably received in Scotland_at least it had ericlges were built, union workhouses were erected, lunatic'
been so in the county he represented, which was not svlerme aed public gaols arose- -
one of the smallest in that country. (Rosa) He de- Sir J. GRAHAM : I said "workhouses enlarged," no 4
nied that there was anything like compensation in th -Ht."
scheme beyond what the farmers had a right, in any
adjustment of taxation, to expect---(" hear hear," from
the opposition)—and lie was by no means sure they
would be satisfied with that. (Loud cries of " hear.
hear," from the same side.) But this he could say, that
the farmers would not begin the agitation. (Cheers.)
Mr. G. H. MOORE said with regard to the consoli-
dated annuities a great fraud had been exercised some-
where, and the charge rested between the Irish
candidates and her Majesty's Government. The gentle-
men of Ireland were indignant at this matte; while the
landlords and farmers of Ireland mainly concurred with
him in the expression of opinion he was now uttering,
and he had no hesitation in telling Irish members oppo-
site that if they succeeded in extending the income tax
to Ireland they should never contest an Irish constitu-
ency again. (Hear, hear.) Hitherto they had suc-
ceeded in contesting the constituencies of the sister
kingdom under false pretences and in canvassing Irish
gentlemen under false pro Mises, but he had this conso-
lation, that if they should be instrumental in carrying
this budget it would be universally said in Ireland, and
truly said too, that they had deserted the interest of
their country for the purposes of faction.
Mr. PEACOCK concurred with the spirit of the
resolution, but he reserved to himself the right of here-
after resisting its details if they were not amended.
With regard to the extension of the income tax to Ire-
land, it was manifestly unjust to confine it to incomes
derivable from the funds ; it should be extended alike
to land and property as well as the funds,
Ile should oppose the repeal of half the malt tax, be-
cause it would injure the revenue without in any way
benefiting the consumer. In fact, he agreed with the
hon. member for Cambridgeshire, who the other day
chanted the dirge of protection—and no more appropri-
ate mourner could have been found—and who, while
doing so, took occasion to observe that any benefit the
farmers might derive from this part of the budget would
be more than counterbalanced by the diminution in the
Import duties upon foreign malt. (Hear, hear.) So car
as the house tax was concerned, he had no objection
whatever to extending it to 101. householders. Taxa-
tion and representation should be made, as far as pos-
sible, co-existent ; and while the 101. householder was
invested with :ale franchise, he could see no reason why
he should not be called upon to contribute to the house
tax like his neighbour, whose rent was 201. a year.
(Hear, hear.) There was an analogy between the posi-
tion of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and that
of Sir Robert Peel in 1842. Both proposed to reduce
taxation upon articles of consumption at once, and to
leave it for the future to impose a tax like the income
tax or the house tax to make up the deficiency in the
/venue. The plan was successful in 1842, and he firmly
believed it would succeed in the present instance. (Hear,
hear.)
Sir F. BARING concurred with Sir C. Wood and
Mr- Goulburn in thinking that the reduction of the malt
duty would produce but little benefit ; that the surplus
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a very doubtful
one ; that the application of the income tax to the Irish
funds was a breach of public faith ; and that the finances
of the country would be left by the budget in a position
not sufficiently secure. He discussed with considerable
fulness the principles and details of the house tax, and
then examined the proposed modifications of the income
tax, pointing at various practical anomalies and incon-
gruities in their application to different species of in-
come, and he contended that, if there was an honest
intention on the part of the Government to carry out
their principles, the resolutions must be withdrawn and
reconstructed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who was
received with loud cheering from the Ministerial benches,
said,—After four nights of criticism, conducted by some of
the most considerable reputations in this house, on the
propositions that I have laid on the table of the committee,
I now rise to vindicate those propositions. (Hear, hear.)
If in the observations, which I will endeavour to condense
as much as Isan, I omit any remarks which have been
urged against those propositions, I hope the committee
will ascribe that negligence to inadvertence, and not to
design. Having listened with all the respect and attention
naturally due to such words from such lips, I can con-
scientiously say that I have listened to nothing that, in my
opinion, has successfully impugned the policy which I
recommended—(hear, hear)—and I am prepared to meet
the objections which have been urged, and to show to the
committee that those objections are entirely unfounded
and illusory. (Hear, hear.) When, with the great in-
dulgence of the house on Friday week, I attempted to
make a general exposition of the policy of the Government
—when, exhausting, lam conscious, the patience of the
house, as well as myself—(hear, hear)—l endeavoured in
the fulfilment of my duty to give, not estimates, but such
information as was necessary as to the effect of the extra-
ordinary expenditure and the extraordinary resources that
I anticipate on the revenue of next year and the year im-
erkediately following. I did not enter into these details
which are necessary to substantiate the accuracy of what I
stated ; I felt that at that moment the house was too
exhausted to listen to those details; I felt that I should
undergo the scrutiny of persons well competent to in-
eval.istdate that accuracy, if inaccuracy could be proved to
withl 'th"d I felt that I should have the opportunity,
"tici %Permission of the house, of answering such
first Zee in due time, (Hear.) I will, therefore, in the
' address myself to estimate whi h I ad
generally as eo the c e
•effect of thet se he
alterations on the revenue
of the two
will apply myself in
which are under discussion ; and I
the first instance, to the two impor-
tant arraialme't"f my course, and of the policy which I
recommend, whichere made principally by the right hon.
member for Halifax. eaad
which,
I will address myself to
that sum of 400,000 s
to
the ,eounder the name of repay-
ments, I recommend
aurnittee to adopt and to
part of the ways sanction as
year. That proposed course was at
onces of the impending
right hon. member for the Universsey,andaenaonneed ley the
guage and in a tone somewhat unusaas,
oortasiailled in lan-
Parliamentary, by the right hon. member
for
rinaylifnaoxt very
instead of addressing his observations to you, air h; r,
dressed, throughout his speech, his observations to
'neo fo
On a subsequent occasion, a right hon. gentleraae_
aygsreat
authority in this house—entered with minuteness, and with
the advantage which days of meditation on the subject"
gave him, into the same topic, enlarging
minuteness which was not observed in the attack of the
right hon. member for the University, and scorned by the
right hon. member for Halifax. These three great autho-
rities have combined to influence the opinion of the com-
mittee on the subject. lam not sure whether a third ex-
Chancellor of the Exchequer has touched on it, for, unfor-
tunately, I was absent from the house during part of the
time ho was addressing the committee. Probably, how-
however, he did not spare me any more than his right hon.
friends have done. It is for sue to treat the subject—if the
committee will, as I have no doubt after these attacks it
will, give me its kind and patient attention—(hear,
hear)—in a manner to show that the proposition I made
have a very different character and complexion from what
the committee has been taught to believe. (Hear, hear.)
There are two points in this subject before the house ; first,
was I justified in recommending that the establishment in
question should be abolished ? Secondly, if I was justified

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—IV ell. en-
a-gecl ; the right hon. gentleman may have the benefit of
ea cosrection. (A laugh.) Certainly he talked of that
lied circulating to the constant advantage of the landed
interest, and he asked, "If that assistance is withdrawn,
a-hat are they to do ?" " Why has he touched it," said the
right hon. gentleman ; " not a single shilling has boon lest
—why has he touched it ?" Now, sir, of a fund of this
nature there is one observation to make of an abstract cha-
racter, which should not be omitted. This fund proposed
to offer to lend money at a higher rate of interest than the
rate prevailing in what is called " the money market."
According to the right hon. member for Halifax that was
in order that the money market should not be disturbed.
(A laugh.) The rules of the loan fund were these—that
for all undertakings in which profit was concerned 5 per
cent. was to be charged, and for all undertakings in which
Profit was not concerned 4 per cent. only was to be charged.
The first and natural consequence of any department lend-
in.. money at a higher rate of interest than the natural rate
of the money market is, that the first-rate securities will
not apply, for first-rate securities will not pay 5 per cent.
or 4 per cent. if they can get their money at 34 per cent. ;
Pad if your funds are employed the chance is that your
security is second-rate security. (Hear, hear.) Well now,
sir, I have here ample information as to the manner in
which those funds were employed as regards the country
gentlemen ; but I have no wish to enter into any details
to show that in many instances those advances might not or
ought not to have been made. At this moment the country
gentlemen are not applying for any great amount of that
fond, for the reason which my right hon. friend the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department adverted to the
other evening--viz., that they cannot afford to pay so high
a rate of interest for the loan which is afforded them.
(Cheers.) But, sir, the objection to this department has
nothing to do with the circumstances on the surface, to
which the right hon. member for Carlisle has adverted, and
only adverted. The question is one of a much deeper cha-
racter, and now, perhaps, the committee will permit me to
inform them under what circumstances and by what rea-
son my attention was drawn tothis loan fund. Sir, I found
in revising the public accounts of the country a department,
and a department of no great mark, with a very large bal-
ance of the public money unemployed, amounting, when it
first attracted my attention, and I believe at this moment,
to upwards of 380,0001., lying perfectly idiL It is no doubt
a rule, which I should think no gentleman opposite will
iaupugn, that large balances of the public money lying idle
are a feature which ought not to be encouraged, and which
ought to be inquired into. But I found that with the large
amount of balance there was a law in existence that per-
emptorily every quarter of a year increased it by the sum
of 90,0001., less the amount paid to Ireland; and it became
therefore my duty to inquire why so large a balance re-
mained unproductive--what was the object of thatbalance
—what had been effected by that fund, and what might be
the consequences of its remaining in its present state? The
right hon. baronet said, in a manner which he did not in
any way qualify—which, in fact, was almost the basis of
his appeal, if not of his argument—that not a single shil-
ling had been lost—that under the innocent managementof
those respected names which he appealed to, and those
worthy officials whose services I have presumed to notice,
the simple country gentlemen have been benefited—that
that revolving fund had raised our gaols and enlarged our
unions, and after 30 or 40 years' experience, not a single
shilling mind you has been lost—" Why does he touch it?"
(Cheers.) Now I must inform the committeethat the riarl'iti
hon. gentleman, in the minute statementwhich he gave a:: this
department, omitted all the most important facts.o I doubt
not, sir, that if a fund had been intrusted or:iy_ t
respect-
able unpaid commissioners of such habits era life as were re-
ferred to by the right hon. gentleman. devoted only to the
worthy and laudable purposes whicta the right hon. gentle-
man described as the sole object of its investment, I doubt
not that though there might have been an occasional job
unconsciously perpetrated, and an occasional bad security
inadvertently taken, r.,G that no very serious consequences
world have elapsed. (Renewed cheers,) But, sir, with so
convenient a fund. at their disposal, there was another party
to interfere be-aide the respectable commissioners, and the
fund has baen employed for purposes very different from
those of ray hon. friends near me—the country gnceentl
of England. (Cheers) With these large bala and
funds another influence has interfered, very- briefly alluded
luded
to iry one of those right hon. gentlemen who have spoken
on. the subject. "We all know how convenient it is to the
Minister," said the right hon gentleman, " to have at a par-
ticular moment such a fund at his command ;" and I will
show the committee how convenient it has been to the
Minister to have that fund at his command. (Cheers from
the Ministerialists.) And I will show to the committee
what flagrant misappropriation there has been of the funds
of this country, and how immense an amount of money has
been squandered away, virtually without the cognizance and
control of Parliament, and entirely by the machinery of this
Public Works Loan Fund. Now, sir, "it is excessively
convenient," says the right hon. gentleman. There are mo-
ments when even I, with my brief experience of office,
which seems so much envied—(cheers)—when even I may
experience the convenience of such a fund. Well, I don't
know what I may come to ' • but certainly, during the short
period that I have had the honour of presiding over
the Exchequer, I had not the slightest idea that I was to
avail myself of such an opportunity. (A laugh.) This,
now, is the way in which my predecessors have availed
themselves of such opportunities. I shall put the question
simply before the committee, whether they think that a
department ought to be encouraged for the reasons urged
by the right hon. member for Carlisle, or whether I have
taken a judicious course in attempting to terminate its
existence. I leave that to the decision of the committee.
Now, air, iat ar.a-aapiaaaa tar., the Mimeter of the days
make no charge of any Minister of any party—m observa-
tions are general—how the Minister of the day hay has availed
himself of the public funds, virtually, as I shall show you,
without the cognisance of Parliament, and how immense
sums have been squandered without even the hon. member
for Montrose, I believe, being aware of it. (A laugh,)
Now, I take a case, and there are many other illustrations
lof the same thing. I take the case of the Thames Tunnel.
I Now, there is a body of ingenious men who resolve to make
a tunnel under the Thames. Well, it is a great triumph,
of scientific enterprise, and much to the honour of the Eng-
lish character, that such an undertaking should have been
entered into without, of course, the slightest chance of ever
getting the smallest interest for the money. It is only in
England that such things are undertaken, and such enter-
prises encouraged. (A laugh.) However, there are mo-
ments when even the most enthusiastic in the enterprise
begin to think that public assistance is required. Ap-
peals are made to the Minister. Those appeals are
stengthened and supported by powerful Parliamentary in-
fluence. A bill is brought into Parliament on a sub-
ject which interests nobody, and it allows the undertakers
of that public enterprise, the members of a public com-
pany, to raise money. Who of the 650 members has an
eye on a bill of that kind ? Probably not five men in the
house, unless they are directors of the company, are
aware of it. That bill contains a clause permitting the
Lords of the Treasury to advance from the Public Works
Loan Fund a sum by way of loan to carry out the projects
of that company. The bill is passed. Being passed the
Promoters go to the Treasury—I am now speaking of the
Thames Tunnel Company—they go to the Treasury by vir-
tue of that clause. The Lords of the Treasury advance, by
Way ofloan, through the machinery of the Public Works
Loan Fund, no less a sum than 250 ,0001. to the Thames
paid
Tunnel—(cheers)—notshilling of which has ever been re-
or a can ever be repaid—(hear, hear)—and on which, I
ah,el_ie,v_e2oOnanly A per cent., which is received probably as an
Treasury,
isr;aemto the tunnel, has ever been given to the
that_
to oom whichmiatPuneratm.'rzhbaleitepslenasnaty,ii) wit.with regard to the syste is
ohdie.vHidouosaelsohfaCvooma mrigonhst toto
do
o
thgrefatc:f folly If a Minister comes forward and
e Thmmons to vote 250,000/, to make a
.at least we have the glory of
l.for thee, aject, and though you may think
;tartostrinnetglh2ellsonlid,eooo7
that 259,0001. might be employed.more useful, elevating
Ind rational-purpose ;at least there istrleu opportunity of
pa ies of the house.
4p pealing to the reason and the s
lem no one is the least
(Hear, hear.) But under thistOs
4 yeseim e,
rbsu.
)t oNow l etnhti
s?
aa-are that 250,000/. is lent.
It is a grant in the shape of a loan.
is one of the cases by which 2450,000/. and its accumulated
I will give one
interest have been lost to the country.
snore instance, and it is one of recent interest, lam

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVIINING,

ashamed to say that I have been a member of Parliament
during the time in which this instance occurred, and I
dare say a vast majority were. Its date is from 1847 to
1850, and it makes me blush even at this moment. (A
laugh.) Now, this is well deserving the attention of the
committee, because there is no reason why almost this very
night or the next night the same operation may not be
going on—there is not the least reason why under this ma-
chinery we may not every week be voting 100,0001. of the
public money without a single member being cognizant of
it. The case which I will now call your attention to is that
of Battersea Park. (Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, lam far
from saying that it may not be the duty of the Govern-
ment toestablish parks for the community. Ido not want
to enter into that great question now ; but I think it is a
question whether the inhabitants of the district should not
at least contribute their quota, and whether it may not
be perfectly legitimate, in a great metropolis like this,
that the central authority should aid in a purpose which
contributes to the ornament and health of the general
population. (Hear, hear.) It is perfectly legitimate for
the Minister to come forward and propose a vote of
150,0001., or even more, to make a park at Battersea or
anywhere else. The house in such an event has the ques-
tion fairly before it, and may consider it in all its details,
and if it sanction it, although the speculation may be im-
provident, and the object not worth the investment, yet
no one can complain or the result. Let me inform the
committee what occurred in the case of Battersea-park.
A bill was brought into Parliament, as usual, empowering
certain individuals to buy land at Battersea, and to make a
park. A clause was put into the bill—not compulsory, mind
you, but permissive—to enable the Lords cf the Treasury,
if they thought fit, to advance from the Public Works Loan
Fund such a sum as they might think proper for the ad-
vancement of the object in question. The projectors of Bat-
tersea-park, with that bill which nobody had ever seen, and
that clause—(a right hon. member, "It was a public bill")
—yes, a public bill, of course, but it does not follow foam
that that five persons in the house knew what was go egg on
—(hear, hear)—they go the Treasury, and whet-. occurs ?
They have an advance from the Treasury of. 150,000/.
don't ask who was the Chancellor of th:d Exchequer that
sanctioned that, notwithstanding ft
sae interruption that
was raised. That is a statistics.:, fact ; and, of all the
speculations that man ever egg-,„„ed in,
no speculation was
ever so absurd as that of Battersea Park. The persons
who undertook the enter-use were totally ignorant of all
the circumstances with. -which they had to deal. They
purchased a great der' -
which they left so rile , s of land, and made arrangements by
return that
ght a margin to the Government as a
21)
ful, before r th,-,
ears must elapse, even if they are success-
receive any rents ; and the slight margin
that is left
,all never defray the sum that is already due
for !,coorsealated. interest ; for, mind you, they must be
r, per cent. to the Public Works Loan Fund all the
tim's*--that is to say, acknowledging a debt which they
rseser pay. The interest is added up every half-year, and
it now amounts, I think, to 12,0001. (Hear, hear,) Now,
Sir, I will not go further into any details of other instances.
I have only done my duty in bringing them before the
committee. I have here in my hand, from the year 1824
till 1840, a catalogue of parallel instances, and the whole
additional amount is very little short of 100,0001.. every
shilling of which has been lost to the country. (Cheers.)
"Not a single shilling has been lost," said the right hon.
gentleman. "Why has he touched it?" (Renewed cheers.)
Well, I've given him now the " reason why "—(cheers)—
and I think the committee will agree, whatever they
may think of the further merits of the question, that
in stopping a system so iniquitous I was only doing my
duty as a guardian of the public purse. Yet this is the
system which. according to the right hon. gentleman, is
administered by Lord Overstone and lent to the country
gentlemen—(loud cheers from the Ministerialists)—all for
building lunatic asylums at 4 per cent.. which the Secre-
tary of State tells you the county of Worcester can build
at 3 per cent. In fact, irresneetive of the flagrant .
rcam-
stances which I have brought before the committee. time
had virtually done that for the Public Works Loan Fund,
which an indignant Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to
have done long ago. A loan fund lending at 5 and 4 per
cent., founded upon the assumption that there was surplus
labour and deficient capital in an age when there was a
deficiency of labour and a plethora of capital, really had
come to its natural on d ; and that is the cause of those
large balances which must necessarily be swollen each
quarter by the increment from the Exchequtr. They have.
in fact with these rapidly accumulating funds, been led
almost to force their leans upon the Irish railways. But
here the Commissioners come into play, and take care that
the security shall be of the best description. And that
which has happened within a very recent period will per-
haps astonish the house; but such is the effect of the pre-
sent, acid I believe the permanent state of the money mar-
ket, that an Irish railway company that had asked for
the assistance of a very large sum indeed, have announced
they will not take the loan, because they find they have
a good security, and can receive assistance in the way of
an ordinary loan. (Hear, hear.) Under these circum-
stances I felt it my duty to bring before the attention of
my colleagues the state of this department--(hear)—and I
called to their notice, that not only was there this waste of
public money, but that there was no security against its
continuance. That waste, too, has taken place during a
period of several years when you have not been able to
siren up your courago to vote 150,0001. for a National
Gallery—(hear, hear)—and we came to a conclusion that
it would be a good thing to relieve the censolidated fund
from this annual charge, and stop the machinery by which
such a ruinous and unprincipled waste of the public money
took place. (Hear.) Then the question arose, what were
we to do with the repayments which every year came in
when the issue was stopped, and which repayments t
placed in my estimate at 409,000/. The right hen. gentle-
man the member for the University of Cambridge seemed
to correct me as to the sum paid being 330,000/. ; but he
confused the issue from the consolidated fund with the
re,ayments in a way that, with his experience as a Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, I was astonished to hear ; but the
fact is that the annual amount issued•from the consolidated
fund is no measure of the amount of repayments.
But the queition arose, what were we to do with
these repayments? Were we to pay this 400,009/. into
the balance of the Exchequer ? That Was the first
question. It is of the utmost importance that the
balance of the Exchequer should be high. That is a
very great principle. But, after all, the balances in the
Exchequer are nothing more than balances of the nation
with its bankers, and the same rule must apply with a
nation and its banker as with a private individual and his
banker. (Hear.) Whether you bank with Messrs. brum-
mond or with the Bank of England, neither Would allow
you any interest on those balances. It is Necessary, there-
fore, for the nation, as for a private individual, to have a
good, ample, and sufficient balance ; but it is inexpedient
to have an excessive balance, and the consequence has been
th!tt the highest authorities, those most favourable to re-
taining a sufficient balance in the exchequer,have laid doyen
what may be considered even as a rule and regulation for
the amount of such balance, There is a certain point
which it is considered most inexpedient your balance in the
Exchequer should surfeseunt. The state of your balances
in the Exchequer it this :—They had long ago arrived at
year of egreat,
that point, at Present they exceed it, and have done so for
some time, Ever since 1842, with the exception of tint
startling, and unexpected vicissibides, the
balsz"ces in the Exchequer have been very high, and higher
than recommended by the highest authorities. The proof
et that is that certainly, with the exception of 1848 and
1849, never, from the period I have mentioned, has there
been any occasion to borrow money to receive any ac-
commodation from our bankers—that is to say, at the
the end of every quarter, when the dividends were
about to be paid, there has always been in the Bank a
balance sufficient to discharge the claims of the public cre-
ditor, and leave a sum ample enough for all the contin-
gencies of the nation. Since 1849, with one exception,
when I think a sum of, 4001. or 5001. was paid for deficiency
bills, and that only from a technical mistake, we have never
been under the necessity of appealing to our bankers. The
committee will then understand, that if the 400,000/. had
been paid in to the balance of the Exchequer, it would in
the present state of affairs have been just the same as
locking up that sum in an iron chest—(hearl—it stenld
have been immovable and unprofitable, (Mar, hear.)
I must ask the indulgence of the committee while
I enter into these details. Treasury finance is a subject
with which the house is not very versant, but I hope
the house will not think me presumptuous in attempt-
ing to instruct them upon it. I was not born and bred
a Chancellor of the Exchequer—I am one of the Parlia-
mentary-rabble--(hear, and laughter)—but I trust, after
all the observations I have made, it will be seen that I
do know something on this subject. (Hear, hear.) I
think it is quite clear that the right hon. gentleman the
member for Halifax was not in favour of 400 000/.
Exche-
quer, eitshisownunpyrooufitatlat
;wbhuent bthroeugrihgthtinhtoon.the
being paid in to the balance of the Exchequer, because
E xcgentlemanhe-
says, " The proper thing to do with it is this
,
the ' right
ought to go to reduce the debt."
And
hon. gentleman the member for the
'University of
Cambridge echoes that—and lam 'glad to hear
that admission, because the Government think the same.
(Hear, and a laugh.) In a recent transaction, 1,000,000/•
debt was created by funding Exchequer-bills in 1842, and,
therefore, say theright hon. baronet and the right hon. gen-
tleman, you ought to reduce the debt, both being against
this sum being paid in to the balance of the Exchequer.
Now, let us examine this question of the reduction of the
debt. Upon this subject there is very great ignotance pre
valent in this house. I have been asked mvself, " What do you leave for the reduction of the debt ?In your finan-
cial statement you have left nothing.' The mode, method,
and means by which the sinking fund is acted upon, and
the public debt of the eemitry is liuidn.ted, does not de-
pend on the will of the Minister, or acr
vote of the House of
Commons :it is provided for by the Legislature. The law
has prescribed the method by which you reduce the public
debt of this country. There is only one way to reduce it, and the law has prescribed this—l beg the attention of the
house, because this is a vital point—(hear, hear)—the law,
I say, prescribes that every quarter an account shall be
taken of our income and expenditure at the Treasury the
surplus shall be ascertained, and one-fourth of that
it surplus
shall be instantly devoted to the liquidation of the
public eht, or to the action of the sinking fund. It is nothing in the discretion of the Minister, or of a single House of Par-
Han-lent ; the law is inexorable and imperative. It is
totally impossible one can act on the debt and reduce it,
unless you bring money into the ways and means. (Hear,
hear.) It is only in such a way it can enter into the bal-
ance struck of income and expenditure, and that the sur-
plus can be ascertained, and one-fourth of the surplus ap-
propriated to the reduction of the debt. (Hear, hear.)
And now I will show you how I have acted on the debt in
the way in which I have recommended Parliament to deal
with this 400,0001, of repayments. The house will assume,
for the sake of my argument, that my surplus for the com-
ing year is an annual one. I will show the house how that
surplus will stand. The account or income and expendi-
ture is taken at the end of the first quarter of the financial
year. The surplus is 400,0001. One fourth of that is im-
mediately devoted to the reduction of the debt. The
same ceremony takes place every three months—the same
action takes place on the surplue of 400,0001., and at the
end of the year the whole of the 400,000/. is devoted to
the reduction of the debt. (Hear, hear.) And in three
years' time, all things remaining the same, and the repay-
ments entering into the Treasury, the whole of that sum
of funded Exchequer-bills of 1,000,000/., and the accumu-
lated interest, will be liquidated, and the public debt
reduced by that amount. (Hear, hear.) There is no other
way of acting on the public debt or reducing it. By the
course I have recommended I have put an end to a disas-
trous waste of public money. In the second place, I have
relieved the consolidated fund from an annual payment
of 300,0001. ; and, in the third place, I have laid the founda-
tion of a reduction of the public debt by that 1,000,0001.,
and all its accumulations. (Hear, hear.) Then the ques-
tion assumes a very different character when this is ex-
plained ; but this is only an account of what I have done.
Let us see what great authorities have said on this subject.
Hitherto, as I have put the case, the house may be of
opinion that I have acted discreetly or wisely, hut unpre-
cedentedly. After the criticisms I have been subjected to
before, let me inform the house what was the opinion on
this subject of the highest authorities. In 1822 a select
committee was appointed to inquire into the public ac-
counts, and to recommend the means y which the k
of those accounts might be improved ;b and to that commit-

tea we are indebted, with scarcely any exception, for all the
forms of public accounts that now prevail. What was the
rcommendation of the committee of 1822 with regard to
these advances f.nd repayments ? That committee, formed
of the most distinguished men, concentrating their atten-
tion upon this sole subject, specifically recommended that
all advances and repayments should enter into the accounts
of income and expenditure--(cheers)—and for six years
the advances and repayments figure in the public accounts.
It may be said tier° was another committee of public ac-
counts in 1828, and that they took a different view. That
would not invalitate the high authority of the committee
of 1822 ; it woult not deprive me of the authority that the
course I have taken is not unprecedented, because I have
proved that it Wrii: practised for six years. But let us in-
quire what was the opinion of the committee of 1828.
They recommended that it would be more convenient that
advances and repayments should be kept in separate ac-
counts from those of the income and expenditure. But I
am informed, and I believe correctly, by a most distin-
guished member of that committee, that the recommenda-
tion did not arise at all from any difference of opinion in
the principles brought into controversy on this subject,
and they added this to their-recommendation, that when-
ever the issues were stopped and the accounts were closed,
then the general account was to be taken, and they were
to revert to their aid position in the public accounts. Well,
Sir, I now approach the second great arraignment of my
financial statement that was made by the right hon. mem-
ber for Halifax with respect to the grave mistake that I
had Made in the estimate for the year after next, as to the
deficiency which would accrue to the revenue from the
proposed semi-repeal of the malt duty. (Hear, hear.)
The house will recollect that I placed in my estimate as
the loss which I believed would occur in the year 1854-5
from the alteration of the malt duty the sum of 1,700,0001.
The right hon. member for Halifax said the loss on the
malt duty must be at least 2,500,0001., taking, of course,
the most depreciatory view of the result of the re-
duction of the duty. He placed the duty as low as
200,0001., and he said, " You will get 200,0001. by your
Scotch drawback, and other things, which will reduce the
loss to 2,100,0001."
Sir C. WOOD—I gave you credit for 200,0001.
Mr. DISRAELI—That is what I stated. (Cheers.)
But the funds, the obstinate funds—(a laugh)—are above
par, when they ought to be at a discount, and the national
credit is good. (Laughter.) Now, when I brought under
the consideration of the committee the subject of the re-
peal of the malt tax, I said that the Government had fol-
lowed in their treatment of that tax the recommendation of
the Royal Commissioners ofExcise Inquiry, presided over by
Sir H. Parnell, in 1832. The recommendation of those com-
missioners was, that in case there was ever free trade in
barley, one-half the malt tax should be repealed, and that
the Scotch and Irish drawbacks should be terminated. In
the interval, since that commission sat, the Irish have
voluntarily renounced their drawback. The commissioners
further recommended that, when free trade in barley was
established, and the malt tax was reduced to one-half, an
end should be put to the enormous and preposterous system
of credit given to maltsters. I said that we wished to follow
the recommendation of those eminent men the members of
the Excise Commission as nearly as possible ; but we
thought it lii[thly important, in following the recom-
mendation of the commission as to the reduction of the
credit given to the maltsters, that the trade should not
be disturbed. We felt that the whole system was vicious
in principle and pernicious in practice, and that it was
absolutely necessary to make some considerable change.
That subject has been for some time under our consideration.
Our object was to put an end to, or to modify, the system
which grew out of circumstances totally different from
those of the age in which we live, and, while we placed
the conduct of the trade neon a much more healthy and
satisfactory bais, not to disturb the trade. Well, assisted
by those able gentlemen, many of whom, I dare say, are
wall known to members of this house, whose aid has been
most valuable to me, we completed the plan which we con-
sidered to be right, but the effect of the new system upon
which the credit of the maltster is to be placed, though, in
my opinion, it will not in any way disturb the trade, will
have an immediate influence upon the revenue. In the
year 1854-55 there will be a sum of 600,0001. paid to the •
revenue, which, if this system were not reformed, would
nob he obtained. Now, what did I do under these cir-
cumstances ? Assuming that the loss from the semi-repeal
of the malt tax would be 2,500,009 f., I deducted from that
amount the sum which, as I have just stated, was reported
to me upon the very best authority as that which would
be gained, and which would reduce the loss to 1,900,000/.
Then the sum of 200,0001. taken from the Scotch draw-
back would further reduce it to 1,700,0001. ; and as I was
not making a formal estimate, in dealing with a time so
remote, I did not make any allowance for that increased
consumption which was mentioned by the right honour-
able gentleman. (Hear, hear.) If I had made an allow-
ance for the increased consumption the sum would have
been only 1,500,0001., according to the estimate of
the right honourable gentleman, and if I had made an
allowance according to the estimate which was given me
by the highest authorities in the trade it would have been
much loss. But, as I have never made any estimate since
I have had the honour of addressing this house, which has
not been very prudential and moderate, instead of the
sum which I was authorised to calculate upon, I only men-
tioned 400,000/. ; but upon the estimate I ffered to the
house the other day, if I had chosen to take into conside-
ration the increase of consumption, which at so remote a
period I did not choose to place before them, the surplus
upon the year Would have been 800,0001. The right hon.
member for Cambridge University said that I had made
another mistake with reference to the malt drawback.
Now, in ascertaining the malt drawback, I look with great
deference to those gentlemen who have been Chancellors
of the Exchequer, and who now rise and shake their heads
at me. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) After all, there is
only one way of carrying on the public business. When a
question of this kind is put before us, we must obtain the
very best information that we can get from the highest and
most authentic quarters, and must exercise our own judg-
ment upon the facts placed before us. (Cheers.) Well,
the highest authorities—men whose information upon
this subject none can rival, and whose intelligence and
integrity of character none can surpass—men to whom I
am indebted for their able and generous assistance,
differing from me in political opinion As many of them
do—(hear, hearHunited in recommending me to take
one-third of the stock as the amount upon which I should
pay drawback on the 10th of October, and the sum I was
recommended to take, as a very safe estimate of the Meet-int
of drawback, calculated by those who are perfectly
acquainted with all the principal maltsters of the country,
was 880,0001. Well, according to my usual habit I took
that amount as the vtinimunt and this is what eacited the
hilarious eloquence of the right hon. member Lor the Uni-
versity. "But why fix the 10th of October?" said an hon.
member on the other side. " Here is the whole plot,"
said some hon. gentleman ; "if we can only find out why
the Government fix upon the lath of October, we shall be
able at once to put an end to all this financial sophistica-
tion." (Hear, and a laugh.) An hon. gentleman Who is
a great accession to our debatestor think it is a very
fortnnate circumstance in such au assembly that we should
have gentlemen, on whichever aide they may sit, like the
hon. and learned member for Kidderminster fgt. TAnsie),
who has shown, on the rare oecaeiciliS oil which he has
addressed the house) 'considerable information—seemed
to possess oil este point information superior to that of
any other hon. member, I allude to the subject of
brewing. (A laugh.) I ain surprised that air lton, gen-
tleman who seemed SO Complete a master of the art of
brewing, and who made so eloquent a defence of the sys-
tem of credit to maltsters, should be the person to ask why
we fixed upon the 10th of October for the half-repeal
of the malt tax. If I had been as successful with regard
to my resolutions as I could possibly eXpeet to be; calcu-
lated that it was not probable that the resolution upon the
malt tax would pass before March, but the policy which I
announced and recommended in December would, if I had
not proposed a drawback, have conipletely paralysed the
a drawback on stock in hand,
trade. It was absolittelytiedessaty should announce that
and the consequence is that the trade goes on just as usual.
the Government would give
The hon. gentleman who possessed such remarkable infor-
mation on the subject of brewing and mulling ought to
know that by far the greater amount of duty which is
charged, and upon which the usual credit is
given for
1853-51, is charged between October and April. Malting
virtually ceases at the end of May, and I may say, indeed,
that from Maysto October malting does iitit 0 Oil, but
there
issomehng
that does go on, and that is brew-
ing. (Hear, and a laugh.) The brewer acts upon the stock
of the maltster, and therefore, when you have to pay the
drawback, you pay it in the most advantageous ericum-
stances, when the malting reakimi tittain eoitimene. In
sereed the fixing the 10th of ()defier, then, fixed a elate whth the
highest .autherities in the trade a
at which the arrangement Could be made. Now, I don't
like to revert to a subject to which I have already re-
ferred, but the honourable member for Kidderminster
said that he would look to me to mention a parallel
case to one which he put as to the feiraYitient of
the 400,0001 e and that he trusted, in my reply
I should not forget his illustration. /stow, in deference to
the challenge, I beg to inform the hon. gentlenian that my
parallel c
father of a fatally, who every three months takes account
of his expenditure
this. will suppose the Case of dareful
l
and income, anddevotes one-fourth of
eees them into the
n hitt the son,
when he makes the re aynionta, snakes payment of his debts,sa a portion Qf those
p
dhleisbtsurbPeliusng
hands of a banker) tys Whom no interest is given, and the
father, instead of allowing the MoneY to remain there,
accounttakes it into his actual ho takes Stock for
the three months, and with the surplus contributes to the
tioncu the d
by advances to hi incurred
reduction of Lis debts. I am sorry that this matter
should have diverted me from the general.tenput of my
remarks, but after four nights' deb*. it is difficult to
put every observation in its lolver order. (Hear, hear.)
Then there is another fault of mine upon which the, hon.
and learned member for Kidderminster is the gioa'a au-
thority, and that not only here but I. nihrpoct elsewhere
also. (Hear, heat, aid a knee) The Kafir war has
broken out again.
(sear, hear.) Now, I made a state-
ment to the house a fortnight ago respecting the
the
of extraordinary expenditure with i'6latd to the Kafir
war. I have formed my apinien on the subject of the
Kafir war—with grew aetomit,c, to the dispatches which
are received by the Secretary of Stite—fosu tlisi dis-
patches which are fotWatcled myohodepartment
from a branch of the service under my immediate
supervision and control—l mean the commissariat depart-
ment, a branch of the service which dealS entiaetirwith the
extraordinary expenditure undo the control of 'the Trea-
sury. Whatever the result may be, I must say .that I be-
lieve the public Panels were never administered by more men than those who have retaliate(' the datfaddlnary
expenditure of the Kafir war in he commissariat depart-
ment. That department communicates directly with the
Treasury, and, although the dispatches are main.ly confined
to the question of expenditure, there is Sometimes a great
deal of information conveyed in thew in a lass publiC and
formal manner than in the dispatches FeeTilpid iii Other
quarters. Well, Upon tile Which I have re-
ceived, which has never deceived me, which has justified
me, at the commencement of the year, in not calling, upon
the house to confirm that vote of 200,0001, I made the
statement the other night, that I believed the Refit War
was terminated. '
,We have had more recent information,
and I can truly say that all the information that has
reached me has entirely substantiated the statement I made
' upon the previous authority. (Lend cries of " Hear,
' hear.") I htive no hesitation in saying the Kafir war is
terminated. I (Cheers.) The best evidence I have is, that
the commisssb,riat department, who are dealing with the
extraordinary expenditure, the only one that figures in our
estimate, area winding up their extraordinary accounts—
(hear, hear)—and they announce that, except for some
casualties, they will not trouble me for any further ad-
vances. (Heels, hear.) They give incidental details of
the state of tl 'se country, which convince me that the war is
finished. (near, hear.) In a war with a Avage country,
you cannot lrixo peace suddenly and precisely ascertained,
as you do with a nation with which you have a treaty, or
where you cells take the capital, or where-some incident
occurs which convinces all the inhabitants that the struggle
is over. (Hee hear.) A sort of flickering ember there may
be ; and to the last an officer may be scalped, or some
straggling as: iassinatien may occur ; but that the Kafirs can
now bring an y force into the field I believe the committee
may be sati. sfied is impossible, (Hear, hear.) It is n9t

DECEMBER 17, 185

who had to make preparation on such a subject could be
ignorant, of the anomalies that existed in schedule B.
The right hon. gentleman and his friends will some day
find in the records of my office, that I have not been negli-
gent in the consideration of that subject, which is one
of
the greatest difficulty. To frame a complete measure on
that, or any other subject, connected with the property and
income tax, would baffle the genius of the greatest man
that ever dealt with finance. We have endeavoured in the
bill and schedules to meet that difficulty. But it was im-
possible for me in December to offer an estimate, and at
the same time place these schedules in the hands of the
house ; and it was requisite that by the necessary alte-
rations made, the general financial result should not be
affected--because the alterations were not only in schedule
B. Under these circumstances I placed that estimate
before you; but the committee will do me the justice to
recollect I said that there would be an apparent deficiency,
but that no loss would be incurred. I naturally thought an
occasion like that was not the legitimate and proper time
of the year to enter on details respecting the income tax.
(Hear.) I can assure the committee that, if I had thought
otherwise they would have found that the question would
not have been neglected. Whatever may be the result at
which the committee may arrive with respect to the de-
tails, it will not change the financial result which I wished ,
at that moment to impress on their attention. Wo had,
then, to consider the great question of direct taxation. It
is totally impossible—with whatever group we commenced
—that we could embark on a career of financial reform
which would be really efficient, unless we had an amount
of taxation still including the income tax. What is the
rule we laid down ? Instad of being reckless, or, in the
language of the right hon. gentleman the member for
Carlisle, ready to push direct taxation to a rash extreme,
we resolved that the direct taxation on which we should
rest should be in amount of revenue inferior to that which
had recently prevailed in this country, and which, since
the repeal of the corn laws, had been cheerfully assented to
by the people. Well, we had then to lay down two prin-
ciples connected with direct taxation. We had to assert
that there is a difference between property and income, a
difference between precarious and certain income. We had
next to vindicate the principle which we believed, and do
believe, is a just one, and which, if not now, must ulti-
mately be recognised and adopted—namely, that the
basis of direct taxation should be enlarged. (Ministerial
cheers.) Having these two principles to guide us in de-
vising means by which we were to obtain the amount of
direct taxation necessary for our purpose, we thought. if
we applied them moderately, temperately, scientifically,
and wisely in the measures that we brought before the
house, we should be acting rightly. We believed that the
difference which we recognised between realised and pre-
carious incomes was one which certainly did not operate on
the excessive side of the scale ; but we believed that the
recognition of that principle was one which would gratify
the working millions of this country, and we believed also
that in asking them to contribute to the revenue of the
country, by extending the house tax to houses of 101..
we were taking a course perfectly justifiable. (Cheers.)
The question of the suffrage has been introduced
into this debate. I candidly admit that lam one of those
who do not like to blend the question of the franchise with
a question of mere money ' • nor am I one of those who aro
so anxious to introduce this question of the suffrage
into a discussion having relation to our financial system.
If it be sought to establish as a permanent feature of our
social system that there shall be created dames who are to
exercise political power by means of throwing an undue
weight of direct taxation upon the wealthier portion of
the community, and an undue weight of indirect taxation
on the working classes, I cannot imagine a circumstance
more fatal to this country, or one more pregnant of disas-
trous consequences. (Cheers.) But of this I feel convinced,
that those who will first experience the disastrous conse-
quences will be the privileged class. (Cheers.) There was
one observation made by the right hon. member for Carlisle
which I ought to notice. That right hon, gentleman parti-
cularly dilated on the hard case of that class whose income
amounted to 1501. a-year ; those whom he considered to
form the most straitened class perhaps in the country, and
who bore most of the brunt of indirect taxation. It was
the same argument which has been used to-night by the
hon. and learned gentleman the member for Southampton
(Sir A. Cockburn.) Now, that subject has been investi-
gated by men who have devoted their lives to the study of
these questions. It has recently been investigated by a
gentleman who is what is called a Liberal, and who if ho
were a member of this house would sit opposite to me—l
mean Mr. one of the most able inquirers into these
subjects of the present day, and, if any position has been
more completely established than another as regards the
incidence of taxation, it is, in my opinion, this—that there
is no class upon whom that incidence falls more lightly than
upon those who possess 1501. a-year. It is that class who
possess property of 3001. a-year who bear the brunt of in-
direct taxation. That can be completely and most satis-
factorily shown. But we had on Tuesday night's debate
a most doleful and piteous appeal made to the house upon
the hardship of taxing poor clerks with incomes of be-
tween 1001. and 1501. a-year. The right hon. gentleman
stated that 1501: a-year was exactly that point in the scale
where manual labour ends and professional skill begins.
You can recall to your minds the effective manner in
which the right honourable gentleman stated this. (Cheers
and laughter.) He showed himself, in my opinion, an
unrivalled artist when he told us that this was the point
where the fustian jacket ceased, and broadcloth became
the clothing. (Cheers and laughter.) The right hon. gen-
tleman is one whose skill we must all admire ; though I
do not so much respect him as I greatly regard him.
(Cheers and laughter.) In deciding upon the incidence
of taxation, no one knows who has not embarked in
that terrible enterprise the labour you have to undergo,
the documents aeon have to read. and the mental exertion
you have to apply. I am sure, for myself that there has
been nothing ever written on the subject that I have not
had to digest. My researches have been ample, and among
the memorandums to guide me and lead me, I have
studied statutes and consulted records wherever they could
be found. I hope lam superior to quoting Hansard, and
all that sort of trash. (Laughter.) But I will state that
among the documents, public and official, which I read I
to guide me, and the perusal of which persuaded me,
I found one which greatly influenced me. I found the
Superannuation-tax Bill of 1834, which was drawn up and
introduced by the right hon. gentleman the member for
Carlisle, being one of those great and worthy efforts which
the right hon. gentleman made with a view to the im-
provement of the administration of the country. (Cheers.)
found in that bill that the line was drawn at 1001. per
annum—(cheers and laughter)—that the poor clerk under
that sum only pays 2A per cent., while the poor clerk
above that sum, though he may only have 1101. a year,
pays 5 per cent. (Cheers and laughter.) That was the
reckless labour of the right hon. gentleman the member
for Carlisle. (Hear, hear.) I know my deficiencies as
much as any man in this house—probably more. But
after all, what, I ask, is to guide us? lam perfectly wil-
ling to forget all that might be said in debate ; but when I
get into office, and refer to public records, and when I
look at a statute of the realm, then I suppose I am come
to the calm, solid, and solemn conclusion of a statesman.
Though I would not legislate upon a passage of a speech,
yet I find dispatches and statutes to consult, then I feel
that though opinions may change upon political matters,
this is the better mind of the man, and, being the better
mind of a most able man, I confess the reading of that
statute did influence me in that very arrangement I had
proposed respecting the poor clerks with regard to the in-
come tax. (Loud cheers.) And remember what has hap-
pened to the poor clerk since 1834, when this statute was
drawn ; remember the reduction of taxation of which the
poor clerk has had the benefit. Remember the repeal of
the corn laws. (Cheers,) Look at the position of the poor
clerk who had 110/. a year, and then had a double tax
placed upon him by the right hon. gentleman ; and look
at his position now to what it was then. I say without
hesitation, that I do not believe that the condition of any
portion of the labouring classes has been so much im-
proved as that of the class of clerks whose salaries range
between 1001. and 1501. a year. Well, having believed
that it was necessary, before we undertook the great
labour which we felt it our duty to embark in, that we
should have a certain amount of direct taxation to rest
upon ; having determined that we would make this differ-
ense in the assessment in the schedule between realised
and precarious incomes, which must inevitably reduce the
amount of direct taxation from that source which our pre-
decessors enjoyed ; having believed that we had attempted to
supply that necessary amount by our proposition with re-
spect to the house tax in a manner which was reasonable,
which was just, which was on the whole most beneficial to
the aemmunity,—which in its operation would ultimately
tend &Yen to confer advantages on those classes on whom
the tax wa to bo imposed ; having by this measure, if suc-
cessful, succeeded in obtaining the amount of direct taxa-
tion which was necessary, but which was still inferior in
amount to that which only two years ago had been enjoyed
by our predecessors we had to decide upon which of the
five vamps of taxation we should operate. Recognising—
I am obliged to repeat it—recognising the great end per-
manent revolution which has occurred in the commercial
system of this country---recognising, as I have done, unfe-
stricted competition as the principle on which our future
commercial policy is to be based : and wishing to assimilate
our financial to our commercial system, and assuming that
we had obtained this amount of direct taxation to rest
upon, we ultimately decided that it would be the wisest
course to commence by acting upon those articles which
entered most into consumption by the people, and that
it would be for their salutary advantage, if we selected
those articles which were subjected to the largest impost.
(Cheers.) Now, that is the real history of the connexion
between the direct and the indirect taxation, as they are
both dealt with in this financial measure. Under these
circumstances we were induced to recommend to the house
the proposition which we have made with respect to the
tea and malt duties. I think the house and the country
have recognised the wisdom of the course we have pur-
sued. (Hear, hear.) At this late hour I shall not enter
into eny elaborate argumentation on the subject of the effect
which 14411 bo produced by the modification of the malt
tax. lam fad, that if you reduce the tax on the con-
sumer, and only as a tax on the consumer—and to that
point I shall advert Intesently, as being in perfect Harmony
with the principles laid down in our revision of the taxa-
tion on one article—to the extent of 2,500,0001. sterling,
that you do not affect the price to him in the least, and
that all the reduction goes to the brewer. (Hear, hear.)
I remember when we used to discuss the effect of
taxation on another article that similar observations
were made. Ido not care now to remember from what
quarter they emanated, but the effect and object of
those observations was exactly the same. (Cheers.) Then
it was, "Oh ! those villains, the bakers !" (Loud cheer-
ing and laughter.) You may reduce the price of corn—
you may injure the agricultural interest—you may ruin
the farmers and the country gentlemen—but you could
not reduce the price of the loaf to the consumer. No,
the bakers took it all. (Cheers and laughter.) Oh, yes,
and there were the millers. The millers were worst of
all—they carried off all the reduction. (Cheers renewed.)
Well, those arguments had a considerable effect, and there
was such a prejudice raised against the bakers throughout
the country, that I should not have been surprised if they
had been all hanged in one day, as the bakers had once
been in Constantinople. (Laughter.) It was said at that
time that a fall of 4s. a quarter on wheat would not affect
the price of bread, and we were told that the bakers,
great
rs,hke
the brewers, were a great monopoly—they were
are the
capitalists—they were a kind of Freemasonasn,yanwda,ydeoverto
what
you would, it was totally impossible in
get a cheap loaf, (Hear, hear.) And now—such
heaestargu and
to tohfeposelwithicealwalinftee—dnc
buy we
in thekea r the e
same p
to sell in the dearest market. (Hear, hear.) The great
opponents of colonial imports—the members of the
import
committee—here we find them arrayed(aalldherewe in favour
them,
with rof
high taxation for the producer, n
with taunts to us, using all the fallacies which we at least
have had the courage honourab,ltyistroagimypeanutp;an(.:7tmisetnhdeorues.
cheering.) Tell me Protection is dead ! Tell me there is
poapithslitiWhon Lnches. Great and prolonged
n(Pooiiiting
cheering, and some ironical laughter.) They have taken
Protectionist
to the
up our principles with our benches, and I believe they will
be quite as unsuccessful. (Cheers.) I must here make
one observation. I say it is in the interest of the consumer,
in complete accordence with the principles we laid down
in revising the taxation of the country, that we have pro-

that eeve3'al chiefs have surrendered—these things have
happened before ; it is not even that the Waterkloof is
cleared, though that is important ; but it is that in the
bush, in the Amatolas, the skeletons of the Kafirs are
found ; it is clear that they have no means of subsistence ;
they are lingering in the bush and dying. (Hear, hear.)
Well, after my estimate, I thought it right to apply to the
Secretary of State, and I said, "What are your dispatches?
I have laid my estimate's upon the table on the dispatches
of my department ; but what are yours ? They may clash."
The same ship that brought me information brought
dispatches to the Secretary of State ; and here is a dispatch
of General Cathcart. I will read a paragraph of it, if the
committee wish; it is strictly in keeping with the subject ;
we are vindicating the estimate, and I rather think I ought
to do it. (Loud cries of " Read, read") It is dated from
Graham's Town, the 12th of October, 1852 :
" By this report, and other events which are detailed in
my dispatch respecting British K afraria, you will perceive
that the war of rebellion may now be considered to be at an
end ; and, as it has been attained not by any compromise or
treaty, but by force of aims, and a severe moral lesson, by
the dispersion and repulsion of the most powerful tribe from
the natural strongholds which they long believed to be im-
pregnable, cannot fail to impress upon those who are consci-
ous of their inferiority in respect to these natural advantages
the ultimate ruin and destruction that must be the result of
rebellious opposition to her Majesty's authority, and there is
reason to hope, provided that authority be duly supported by
an adequate permanent military establishment"--(" hear, hear,"
from, we believe, Sir W. Moleswerth and others)—" that any
similar protracted and expensive Kafrarian war may be long
adverted."
(Hear, hear.) I read that because it is a definite announce-
ment. (Hear.) With respect to the "adequate military
establishment," the hon. baronet need not be alarmed ; we
shall depend upon the mounted police, which is a colonial
force, and I think I may promise the house that we shall
not have any increased expenditure on account of the war.
(Hear, hear.) The head-quarters of General Cathcart are
at Graham's Town. He has withdrawn two regiments
from the seat of war; and I trust we shall soon withdraw
others. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") There is another
point in the estimate which I ought to notice, which has
been urged by the right hon. gentleman the member for
Cambridge University (Mr. Goulburn.) He said I had made
no allowance for the loss to the revenue from the proposed
permission for refining in bond. It is very inconvenient
for me, at this moment, to refer in any detail to the subject
of refining in bond. The refining in bond will depend upon
certain conditions. I have pledged myself that those con-
ditions shall be placed before those most interested without
being previously bruited about. I can only say, therefore,
at present I do not make any allowance in my estimate for
a loss on the refining in bond, because I believe not the
slightest loss to the revenue will occur. (Hear, hear.) I
hope the right hon. gentleman will be satisfied with my
giving my opinion, and not press me to go into any detail
upon this point. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I approach, perhaps,
still more serious subjects. It has been said that the house
tax has been proposed by the Government in order to carry
the semi-repeal of the malt-tax. Well, I admit that that
is a very plausible charge ; it is a good card. (A laugh) I
find no fault with any gentleman opposite who makes the
charge. I know myself sufficiently to feel convinced that
were I in their situation and their circumstances, it is very
possible I should have made the charge myielf. (Laughter
and cries of "Hear, hear.") Nevertheless, though it be a
plausible charge, a good charge to make, it is not a just
charge. (Hear.) They have no connexion whatever in the
origin of the measures which we have thought it our duty
to recommend to Parliament. (Hear.) The right hon. gen-
tleman opposite informed the house on Tuesday night
that I had promised the country a new system
of taxation ; but ho did not produce any authority for
that important statement, and, generally speaking when
statements of such magnitude are made authorities, aro
furnished. (Hear, hear.) I will sit down now, if the
right hon. gentleman will rise and give me the authority.
(Cheers.) It is very true that the lively member for Mid-
dlesex (Mr. Osborne) quoted a passage from my address to
my constituents, which, certainly, was not merely made to
my constituents, but to those in other places whom my
feeble authority might influence • but if an opponent could
have wished to assist the man whose adversary he was, he
could not have done me more justice, or given me a better
turn, than the lively and somewhat audacious member for
Middlesex did. (Laughter and cheers.) I listened to his
speech with all that pleasure which I am sure the house
shared—(hear, hear) ;—I think it was one of his best
speeches—(hear, hear);—but the passage that most delighted
me was that which he quoted from my own address, for I
had not seen that address for a long time; and, really, after
some of these charges which have been lately made, I ar-
rived at almost a nervous state upon the subject. (Laugh-
ter.) What did I say there? I, who am charged with
misleading the farmers at the election, and throwing them
over afterwards—(hear)—l said that the genius of the age
was in favour of the change that has taken place, that it
was in vain to struggle against it, that they mustfind the
means of meeting it in reducing the cost of production,
and that one of the means of reducing the cost of produc-
tion, lay in reducing taxation. (Hear, hear.) And lam
described as having deceived the farmers before the elec-
tion, and thrown them over afterwards—(hear hear)—and
the right hon. gentleman says we are assembled here to re-
ceive the new system of taxation which I promised. Where
is your authority ? Her Majesty's Government did all
that they promised ; they did not promise a new system of
taxation, but they did revise the taxation of the country.
(Hear, hear.) The committee will, I hope, excuse my en-
tering into details. We gave to that subject a long, and an
anxious, and a most impartial consideration. In review-
ing that, which I may call a colossal subject, the question
naturally divided itself into many groups, if I may use a
word now familiar to us. We had to consider those ar-
ticles that entered into the general consumption of the
people, that were necessary for their healthy sustenance,
and that were exposed to enormous imposts, such as tea and
coffee. That was one subject on which we felt that it was
necessary something should be done to meet the principle
of unrestricted competition, now permanently established as
the principle of our commercial code, and in order to assi-
milate the financial system under which the community
live who were subject to the principle of a restricted com-
petition. We had to consider the whole question of the
stamp duties with reference to those real burdens upon
land—upon the transfer of land, which must sooner or
later be dealt with —(loud cries of "Hear, hear")—and a
question of the utmost difficulty, which must also not long
be neglected—the question of the leeacy and probate
duties. We had to consider wheder it was pos-
sible to propose to Parliament a duty on succession,
which, in connexion with the total reform of the burdens
on the transfer of land, would be an equitable and just set-
tienient of the question, and one which was for the welfare
of all chimed. (flew' hear.) That is what I may call a
second. group. (Hoar,) We had, in the third place, to
consider those Excise laws which exorcise a pernicious in-
fluence upon the employment of capital. and upon the em-
ployment of labour, like the 60311.And.paper duties. The
question of the assessed taxes, -With the necessary reforms
which they require, alone form a fottiiii group. (Hear.)
We were obliged to consider the whole of otir tariff with
regard te bur commercial relations with other cetititfies,
beettitge theta Wee ett Inclination in some countries to In-
crease those doniniefeiel relations, and we wished to en-
courage them. (Hear, hear.) Thsse were five great sub-
jects, all of them demanding our attention; with all of
which, sooner or later, a Government must deal ; and we
had to cheese how we would commence this arduous en-
teittrise, ( ear') tint there was a very important question
also to consider whorl Wd &vile this. general survey of our
financial system—a very important question to settle
before we could decide even as to the first step we should
take—and that was the question how far we should prevail
ti tin the country to fix upon that sum of direct taxation
Which Wee fiedMary for any Ministry that attempted to
enter into a career of financial reform. (Hear.) I have
been o,cceised by the member for Halifax (Sir C. Wood) of
making a petoposition which recklessly increases the direct
takatioil of the eoitntry. (Hear, hear.) I have been ac-
cused by the member fof Carlisle (Sir J. Graham)—prompt
in accusation at all times—(Cheer from the Ministerial
side)—of pushing direct taxation to a istiedt extreme. In
the first place the proposition I made on the pea of the
I
GoVeriiniente neteacl of recklessly increasing the amdffht
of direct taiatiOni Would not, if it passed, occasion so
groat an dittoeint of direct taxation as prevailed under the
superintendence of the finances by the right hon. gentle-
man the member for Halite /4 WhOrt lie enjoyed not only
evi
the income and property tax, but .the rieltese tax, which,
in tild last year of its existence, brought him u.sarly
2,060,060/. steiling, (Cheers.) The right hon. gentlenian,
who sittyit Mile& Slot teekleseely increase the amount of
direst taxation; red,iided the amount which he received in
its last year !rend the Witt tart'; and was content with
the modest sum of PO, 001, DY Way of commutation 1
for the window tax. I cannot forget that the right
hon. gentleman, who recklessly charges me ulth in-
creasing the atuOthit of direct taxation proposed first
a c.empleto dOitinintetion Which would have made
his Hattie fa* let& iii , i' t, than the one I have
proposed. (Lead ie all ? Is this all
that has been done by the rig.fit hon. gentleman who
charges me with proposing recklessly to increasd the direct
taxation, of the country ? Why, there is the Minister Who
with the Pfelleill tax you have now producing its full
amount,, with winticoNtitali tilgt brought nearly 2,00,0001.,
came down.to the Ronde of CepitietOila one day and pro-
posied to ti titaftled o.6stemlilY to doefiele nearly the property
and income tag. (Great clieering4 I look on this con-
duct as indicating carelessness ef eetkinqiiendes I look
upon it as the conduct of a man who had not wen -Weighed
the thitefpfhie winch he is embarked. We heel' of the
duplicatnari of the hadn't/ tax—an innocent amount ; but
if the right hen:pi-ere/an tied eareled the duplication '
of the piop'eftt. indorde tart, think be might fairly
have charge With fecklessly hiefeasing the direct
taxation of the country. (Loud eheniiej The most curious
thing, however, is that the Minister who Mild fofWatd to
make a propesition, which nothing but the most Vales
conjunetidn of direnmetances could have justified, at the
first menace of opposition withdrew his proposition. (Loud
cheers;) Talk of feticide/MOO i Why, what in the history
of finailed the feekkesneee with which
the right hon. gentletdafi tiete'd I (Land cheers.)
And what was the ground on which he made this monstrous
and enormous proposition ; a proposition which tally the
safptj%. 0 the *late weuld have Justified him in making?
When he Wad"Heald; humiliated, he came forward
to say that ho lied sufficient fel/dill/0 without resorting to
that preposition:
,(areat and continued cheering.) The
future histeritin not,be believed to be telling the truth
when he says that the Ministet edible down nearly to double
the income tax, and the next day came down to say that
the Ways and Means were ample. (Renewed clieering;)
But then he tells me, and not in very polished, and in
scarcely 13arhatieiita'!'y laneuage, that I do not know my
busineElB. ,r,(dttat eheefing) He may have learnt his
business. The HOnee elf Commons is the best judge of that.
I care not, to be his critic ; yet if he has learnt his business
he hag gOnid optitgf things-that petulance is not
criticiiiii, and that ineolened id hat integrity, (Loud
and continued cheering.) The committee will remem- '
ber that in dealing with those five great groups of taxa-
tion to which I have called attention, and all of which
I .Ito,y. gay eqttally deirtanded the consideration of a
Minieter; ivelied to deal with the great subject of direct
taxation. There wee, indeed, the income and property tax
in existence for a brief space. It was, perhaps, possible
that the Ministry might have come forward in the House
of Oettiiiittee anti obtained a temporary continuance of that
impost. That is not by any means certain. But there
were peculiar circumstances connected with the position of
the Ministry and the property and income tax. Her Ma-
jesty's Government were of opinion that the time could no
longer be delayed 'when the Government of this country
must recognise a difference between the incomes which ac-
crued from precarious and from realised property. (Hear,
heer.) It was evident that such an acknowledgment acted
upon must diminish the produce from that tax at a mo-
ment, when certainly wo did not wish our resources from
direct taxation to bo diminished. It is difficult I confess,
to answer every observation that is made ; but another
right hon. gentleman, who recently spoke, has been criti-
cising, I think before the appropriate time, what he calls
my bill on the property and income tax. In the first place,
my bill is not before the house. 'When he sees it, he may
criticise it. We are placed in this position with respect to
the :points of detail which the right hon. member for Ports-
mow% mentioned. We were perfectly aware, as nobody

iposedntere
interest
this f
the measure
cultivatorbu dotlof t
hneo not
0117
any moretluto
which I have no doubt will
that by remitting the duty on tea I have not C12;00 of
the Indian occupier and of the China trade. B for the
bring forward the proposition, in the first instan th.o
Le., oil
advantage and interest of India and of the s
farmers—or even those odious beings the ownersn .
_A the
or the
t
—(a laugh)—have the benefits of tois legislatioe
greatly promote thiciN did rot
same as you admit the manufacturer of Men
s .„
merchant of Liverpool to find in his transaction
stoui to
vantage of reducing the price of bread or the Vie ow,
it Nvill not be thie,
to the wife of the poorest cottager in the con.ntry%
hear.) But I said this—Deal with the interest et; pre-
sume; and incidentally you will find that ridilictive
ducing the greatest advantage to the great Pr`L, told than
terests of the country. (Hear, hear.) But
tin repealing a portion of the malt tax, notNvl'L hoe
that I showed you in my statement how modestly
to its
put the resources of the country, I have shalteri'.)
foundation the credit of England. (Hear, hea
credit of England depends on a farthing a potr „hall
poor man's beer? (Cheers and laughter.) Neveember for
forget how that " weird Sybil," the right hon. • lough-
Cambridge, gave forth that solemn oracle. (Nut7co can
ter.) Now Ido not think that any cirenms the pubhif,
justify personal appeals of that kind. He say? I thin
credit is in danger. Well, I don't think it le' ear,
public credit never was in a better position. I;istor9
t
of this
leounnetvryer
wrhemenemhbeerr
reasnoyurpeeesriowderein, "Ohe °r sy.
daily, so visibly increasing. (Cheers from whether
position.) I will not enter into the discussionc the
laws't°r© '134
the cause was gold, the repeal of the corn laws,
crease of emigration : but, as to the last point!
for madder
one thing in the speech of the hon. member .c,
not core
minster to which I have adverted so much. a ssofer
from what quarter it comes ;my business is now bu.s the
the attacks made on the Government, but I coten ;note
opinion of the hon. member for Kidderminster
111711,p0l
as heretical on emigration as it is upon brewingn; to fine'
malt. (A laugh.) I repeat that lam veil glc-eligra /root
him here among us, but all the opinions I have,1,440)
him yet appear to be quite unsound. (Cheers emu.' oar
I continue in that opinion. In the first place( "
.„ersble
coast 0)0
founded Ireland and England, though I, a+. - di 601
pains, and perhaps not necessarily, showed the .! 4111
between them the other night. As to England 11 sorte
interesting to hon. members to quote a Passageaid tpij
letter written by the most eminent actuarY iswei
greatest statistical inquirer in England, whose tun do a°,
known to the hon. member for Montrose, thollga eicei!,ol
think it necessary to mention it which I have e:,,s,
reference to this subject. "The rate," bei,:c-
births and marriages has greatly increased in t''' -to rather
and I think emigration may facilitate the rate poL
than impede it, the reserve of producing
which we have in this country." (Roars of laughter, to boo.
is a point I wish to bring to the attention of tip Os
member for Kidderminster. (Renewed laughter.) and
lived abroad in a country with a sparse populatio,n,,,bere•
has no idea of the reserve of producing power we na„y info
(Renewed laughter.) But he goesn.'",to 1
from the fact that in the south-eastern countic.
ore.
married women of ages between 20 and 45 therreaso4;
women of the same age—that is, from 20 to 45--uniodiog.
of whom only about seven bear children notwiths the re'
(Renewed laughter.) Now, I have confidence inionlee4
serve of producing power, which I think the hen.• t credit
with his colonial experience, had not given Bract(); )10
to us for. With respect to the point to whic,o ()fir
alluded, my opinion is, that the surplus revert „f
country will be very considerable at the en" for that
year 1854-55. But I look to other resources,' ,opir
year than to increasing profits, or the increaseiumi. AV;
lation of this country, and I will mention what he riltif
(Hear, hear.) I look to a great retrenchment in t ,
expenditure of this country—(cheers)—and I to tins
the committee allow me, advert for one mow° 011 be
point. I believe that any great retrenchment env,'
effected by looking to the efficiency of our °stab/is oesr
and trusting to the economy which is the net
sibtth
nuence of that efficiency. do not think it Posta!' pe
the result can be reaped till 1854-55. Now,
house will permit rne, very shortly, to show to theTof
illustration of a remarkable kind what is the rest of e 0
mini:Arai-dye reforms conducted on the the princiP osoteP
ciency without any regard to what is called mere ee eforal;
T. in my estimate of the effects of administrative rio defy
should have spoken of millions, but I am now Ping,incls are
with an instance in which only thousands of Iv • i 5
concerned. But the case I am about to lay before !erie
real case which, however slight the instance, will roec;
show the principle. It is due to my noble friend the
tbe.
ber for Buckingham (the Marquis of Chandos) to 5.11,11, 0!(1,
I am entirely indebted to him for the case in W1°411,001
_„'s
I may most sincerely say of him that, since he has,ro
the service of her Majesty there never was a PlwAl_rvice.
who devoted his life so completely to the public.s;roo
(Hear, hear.) In preparing the measures of admin'"od
reform, which I wished to bring before the house,
,e to
making a catalogue of all the establishments which 11%is itte'
be attended to, I found in the report of the select clece Aft
of 1848 upon miscellaneous expenditure, of which' he.„l due''
hon. member opposite was the chairman, this mernol;itia
—" Whether a reform might not be effectedl3s",„. Coaci
the Chief Secretary's office in Ireland with the
cillor's office." That suggestion was made in 1848. '-taTeel▪ hie
to my noble friend the member for Buckingham, c to ire
attention to this passage, and I said, " Will yon
land and will you take somebody with you to aid -7
Chie• f
your labours, and examine into this question of ,1,„
Secretary's office? But, mind you, mere retreneaeener,
not our object ; economy must be combined with e-w- o
(Hear.) If more money is necessary you shall I°' so
but go to Ireland, examine into the whole questi°l"
o
report to me by what means you can render t."
more efficient, and let me know the amount V' seat);
require." Well, Sir, he went, accompanied by tile t
fns
tart' of the audit board, one of the most intelligen ogle
assiduous of public officers. (Hear, hear.) Th,enY bliej
their inquiries into the Chief Secretary's office ""-11,4'."
By the report of the committee of 1843 it was stiggieo.
whether the consolidation of the Chief Secretarie,°,llo
and the Privy Council office would not be pree"-tioa'
My noble friend, however, effected a consoliMel
not only of the Chief Secretary's office and the „imi
Councils', but of the Fines' and Penalties' office. Ile ;11016
deal with an annual cost of 21,738/. He put the ;
office into the most efficient state that a public officio
be in ; and the natural consequence of its being Pi
as re;
most efficient state was, that the cost of 21,7381-
duced to the sum of 5,1781. (Cheers.) Thus the s
oya'
effected by an inquiry conducted without any otherdw,
sideration but that of efficiency, produced a savings that
per cent. upon the original cost ; and yet I am t,„4,°' ere,
nothing can be done in administrative reforms. tu'r ie"
I must, in justice to my noble friend, notice anothetote-
stance. His only fault is that he is of a too retiring °vie; '
(Hear.) There are very few men more capable of n.s.
ing information to the house, especially upon rits;';,st
financial accounts but he takes refuge instead in
domitable power of application to business for which lief"
already so distinguished. (Hear.) There was an sPbe
tion made, and apparently a very fair one, by the ssA
of the Secretary at War, when the Militia Bill wasp con"
for an increase of staff. There was of course a yell the
siderable increase' of duty in the office consequent uP°.,rDi• elt
new measure, and it was just one of those demand sol
might have been conceded heedlessly, and with which 011
one, upon a superficial view of the case, might have T;° ,
eipt'
accorded. But I, having great confidence in the pit.'"u
of administrative reform, and equal confidence in the
lities of my noble friend, before I would agree to anitlie
crease of expenditure in the office in consequence
~,,° ,1/0"
militia, which I should have witnessed with great tee'
lingness—(hear)—asked him to appoint a centmi. the
which he did with the assistance of the Secrete*" eer
Treasury, the secretary of the Audit Board, and a t., $0• -
man once a member of this house, the present Der,' 'sob'
cretary of War (Mr. B. Hawes). They examined tioi the
ject and put the office into a most efficient state, 0,4 oi
qe l
whole of the additional business is carried on with°„-
farthing of additional expense. (Cheers.) In therfro.o,
the Irish office, the persons employed were reduced olio
57 to 40; but, allow me to remind the house, thatL,-.lol'
all this retrenchment, perfect efficiency was 15°'-ijces'
(Hear.) These are, some may think, minute 100' qijio
' but they are instances well worthy of attention,
Government have been dealing, however, with
ti
instances. (Hear.) They have been atterari,"i7oo,
deal with the great department of public exPen7,i. the
and, as the results of that attempt, las the organ - ver.t
Government, express our opinion that there mae be g'ittiro,
considerable retrenchment made in the public exnenu, the
and that this retrenchment may be brought to bear.rojes,,T.
year 1854-55. (Cheers.) But, Sir, one thing is qu,_l7° i;ilP
—that you cannot embark in an undertaking of tills 00'
unless you have the fair support of the House of Conoo.o
(Cheers from both sides of the house.) Now, ta.4
opinion is this—that it is not wise to grapple with tt-0P
partment of public expenditure by committees. ('-„, D 9
hear.) lam of opinion that you must deal with theft to
commissions—the same commissions that are brong'o9
I bear upon the revenue department ; but, although "crlssa
I have commissions and the royal sanction, it is neciionse
trot the question should be fairly broughtbefore the old
of Commons in the way of exposition, and that yen or,
have tie moral sanction and support of that house. (.401
hear.) It is perhaps the most difficult undertaking the
a Minister can embark in, and unless he has, I may siAsin ;
Crown and Parliament to back him, failure is c° one'
though with that support I think success is equallY good
(Cheers.) Well, then, when lam told that I have no
ground for my surplus of 1854-55, my answer is that
lieve we shall have much more than the surplus wilted
cursorily ventured upon in my general statement. , that
you I have other resources upon which I depend, nand. the
I believe, with an ample surplus to begin with, it:thei
fault of the House of Commons if in the year 1854-o'l tot
do not find their public service more efficient than !iced
and less costly. (Cheers.) I think I have now 13°'_,Iit
euery objection of importance which has been broyber
against the Government propositions. I have avoid; of
tering into the question as to the unconstitutionah_,',o
our conduct with respect to the income tax. Legit for
opportunities will arise for commenting upon all thet,
be said upon this subject; and the house will, I
come to a fair decision on the subject. Although tillt,jl
minute objections have been made to points of 0",,eol
I have not stopped to notice these. I have not et°Ptihe
to vindicate that part of the income tax relating to the
farmer's schedule. I shall be prepared to lay before..erl
make as ocnlossewahin cahpprhoaxivereaill;!olilate
I may state now .0 to
justiceouusrtocommitteeon only
yt
asa take
opbeoj tsehsciiethb was
possible. And Asth coursenadmn Ida; k
will butnot vote for t hat so s
if it is not the prevailing feeling of the house that lustioa
just arrangement. I will not enter now into the (111° „ro-
of the hop duty and things of that kind. After 0° -cro"
tracted a debate, and following so manyspeakers wh° Oh°
merited upon so many points in the financial schemer°loo
Government, I hope the committee will feel that if Ice to
avoided some of those points it has been from deferen
otib.
them, and not from any wish of my own to avoid thfL Jo
ject. (Hear.) But some advice has been offered 1;a to
which I ought, perhaps, to notice. I have been tcr 30.•
withdraw my budget. (Laughter.) I was told thaniber
Pitt withdrew his budget, and that more recently
persons had done so too. (Laughter.) Now, Id° 31° the
pire to the fame of Mr. Pitt, but I will not submit itoove
degradation of others. (Loud cheers.) No, sir ;
seen the consequences of a Government not being,_%, the
pass their measures—consequences not honourahl net, in
Government, not advantageous to the country, arts hose'
my opinion, conducive to the reputation of t1141..,,t0fir
which is most dear to me. (Loud cheers.) I..„';:vit:
ber a budget which was withdrawn, and
.41; yeeti
drawn, and withdrawn again—(laughter)—in
1848. What was the consequence of the G°Yi`enee t°
existing upon sufferance? What was the °°llci tranesf;
the finances of this country ? 'Why, that ignoble bolt
tion respecting the commutation of the window 70.40. inf.•
duty, which now I em obliged to attempt
of censit
The grievance is deeper than mere questions o
verge.,o
deration. When parties are balanced—when r! viih,
cannot pass its measures—the highest prinallie 'lgeiiersof
tL
life, the most important dogmas of politics'
into party questions. (Hear) Look at this oftite7o7ll
direct taxation, the most important question
force 1
It is a question which must sooner or laterr_ before
xue
upon everybody's attention; and I so beiv