The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-10 00:00:00

SUN

s;.tuatel the power to exeroi.se a most coercive
hM) and them. i.ll it p-n,itiofi

a,Ci Si 0•J to ,xe!..3:

gradieg to toe nature of elector and to his
dition, and which would be hurtful to ;'he con.stitutic:a of
the House a-.id of the Country.—(Hear, hear.) The man
who was force(i to vote wss about its much degraded as
the man who wee bribed to vote: he lo:it his self-respect,
arid by being tempted to de.ifEnd the vote which he had
beau cotnptilled to give there was a growinl, depravity
brought about of his moral feelings. He (Mr. Bright)
said that the Nubie Lord was bound to give the ballot—
(Hear)-.-if there was any considerable extension of
the franchise. He would not go into the question of_ the
ballot in any long argument. His mind was so entirely
made up on it, both as regarded moral and political
grounds, that he hoped when the motion for the adop-•
(ion of the ballot was brought forward by the Hon.
Member (Mr. Berke-1 -y), and when it was discussed with
more attention than it had hitherto received, they would
be able to show that it was due to th' employer of
labour s 4 well as to the employed that a clause enacting.
the ballot should be added to the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
The of xt point on which he wished to observe was
lowering the county franchise from 501. to 201... Ho
thought the-Noble Lord would admit there was no argu-
ment iu favour of a 201, franchise which did not apply
with equal force to a franchise Of 101—(Hear, hear.)
The 101. franchise had been carried in that House ho
less than twice by the Hon. Member (Mr. L. King); and
that alone was a reason why they should look very
closely into the-present proposal. He asked Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite, was there any reason why they should
give a vote to a man occupying a 51. house in a street in
Manchester or Birmingham and refuse it to a man living
in the country in a house of 181, or 191 a year?—(Hear
hear.) A men, perhaps retired from business, might:
have a must comfortar.ile house in the country with a
rent under 201. a year, and yet he was to be debarred
from the franchise. Now, he presumed there would
be a proposition made to substitute a lower franchise,
and he hoped the House would adopt it for consistt,ncy
and justice sake, if no argument could be shown

against it. How the Noble Lord could excuse himself
fur proposing such a tranobise, when last year he pro-
p.)sEd an 81 franchise for Irish c ,unties, which the
House of Lords raised to 121., he (fir. Bright) could not
understand. No one could object to the Noble Lord's
proposd to admit to the franchise every one who paid
403. unuually in direct taxes; but he hoped it, was not
proposed as any great measure. The direct taxes were
not so many that many would be admitted under them
in addition t,) those wno were otherwise quaiißed; and

he believed it would have no perceptibleetfee: in in-
creasing the number of voters. The Noble Lord bad
refused to distranchise any boroughs—he did not speak
of Sudbury and St. Albans, but of the small boroughs
—but proposed to lessen what was called family in-
fluence in such constituencies by adding neighbouring
towns to them. It was impossible to deny that if the
franchise was lowered from 10/. to 51.. and the neigh-

pouring . small towns were added, the censtituencies
would be increased, and in some cases family
influence might be destroyed. Therefore, if it
was a question between showing such a state
of things to remain and accepting this measure,
he allowed the change would be some gain, but be could
not agree with the principle on which it tsas grounded.
The Noble Lord had spoke of maintaining tee balance of
partif 5. [Lord J. Russ ,11—No.] Wf-11, the.balance of
power, perhaps the balance of interests; but if he ac-
cepted the principle of representations at all, he should
nut seek to have the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Walsh) at
one extreme, and hire (Mr. Bright), as it might be con-
sidered, perhaps, at the other, but that the proportion of
opinion in the House should assimilate to the proportion
of opinion in the country, and not that as when the
question of free trade was settled long ago—(lronical
cheers and laughter)—and when, he would not say 9
out of 10, but certainly 3 out of 4of the people of this
country, had long disposed of the question, Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite should muster votes that pearl}
equalled the votes on that side, of the Houss.—(Hear,
and laughter.) Why had he mentioned this but to
prove that free trade had no adequate representation in
the House, and that the opposite opinions had a far
larger representation than they. would have been entitled
to had the representation been fairly apportioned over
the country? Ile supposed the Noble Lord would
maintain what he called the balance of interests, but he
would find it was not the balance of interests,
but the dead lock, under which his Government
would be unable to march.—(hear, heals) If Hoe.
Gentlemen opposite were to cones into power to-morrow
they would be precisely in the same difficulty; and so
long as opinion was in greeter progression out of doors
than in the House of Cotrmens, so long Government
would be in the position in which it then was—namely,
that they would wish to do that e hich the House of
Commons would not allow them to de, and which the
people insisted on having done.—(teer, hear.) If they
were to go out, and tefon. Gentlemen opposite were to
come in, they would find themselves in the very same
position, and they would soon be sent to the place from
whence they came.—(A laugh.) He had expected the
Noble Lord was going to make some pregress with re-
spect to the smaller boroughs having each two represen-
tatives, and he hoped the question was net yet settled
adversely to his (11r. Bright's) views. He would just
quote the cases of Harwich and Thetford. The Noble
Lord might find country towns or villages to give them
larger constituencies, but was it consistent with the
opinions he had exprefsed that eight and during his
whole political lite to enlarge Harwich and Thetford,
and to allow them two members, while etch of the
metropolitan boroughs and the constituency of 25,000
that ho represented had but each two Members also?
Was it possible an arrangement like that could be per-
manent? No, of course not; and next session the
question to transfer one of the Members from some of
these boroughs would be moved with a torte of argu-
ment which he defied any Minister to meet with any-
thing like satisfaction to his own mind and reason, and
in the same way ho would be met with the question of
the 20!. franchise and the vote by ballot. If be believed
with the Hon. Baronet there was hazard in introducing
much more of the democratical element into the House;
and if with such views he was intrusted by the Queen to
make a proposition, he would take away such a glaring
detect as this from those who would hereafter advocate
change. The Noble Lord had not told them what he
intended to do with these small boroughs, and he (Mr.
Bright) submitted it was his bounden duty to
withdraw from all these boroughs, which re-
quired an addition to make up the constituency, one
Member, and to give that Member in each case to large
constituencies, or to large towns not now represented.
The Noble Lord had touched on the question of oaths,.
at which the Hon. Baronet, on the other side had taken
great offence. He (Mr. Bright) spoke disinterestedly on
that subject; because he was not obliged to take en oath
himself, the House admitting, is the ease of those cir-
cumstanced like him, a simple declaration; but he was
bound to say that he believed such a declaration would
be quite as binding on the conscience of any Hon. Mem-
ber as an oath; and he thought that Parliament should
show the world that the gentlemen who met in that
House regarded their word as tantamount for all pur-
poses of perpetual obligation as much as most statesmen
did tan oath. The French revolution of 1848 bad, upon
a retrospect of the past sixty years, abolished all oaths
except that taken by one person; and they now found
to their cost that his was the only obligation that had
been broken and disregarded. With regard to the ge-
neral question he (Mr. Bright) regretted that the Noble
Lord had left so many questions unsettled; but he ad-
mitted that the measure proposed an extension of poli-
tical rights, and he believed that the country would be
grateful to the Noble Lord fur bringing forward, with-
out compulsion, a proposition which, if carried, would
leave the representation of the country in a far more sa-
tisfactory condition than it was at present.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BAILLIE Said the Noble Lord and his Govern-
ment doubtless considered that he had now redeemed the
pledge given to his supporters at the close of the las
session of Parliament. He (Mr. Baillie) was not, how-.
ever, surprised at the speech of the Hon. Member for
Manchester. In fact he should have been surprised if
those with whom reform was an article of political faith
did not experience some disappointment at so imperfect
a measure being substituted us a satisfactory solution ot
the question of reform, by so old and experienced a Ile-
former as the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Baillie) was not one of those who held reform as an
article of his political faith, or who, in fact, believed
reform to be necessary; but the necessity had been de-
cided by her Majesty's Government and the first Minis-
ter of the Crown bad, in the last, session of Parliament,
declared it desirable to increase the power of the demo-
cracy of this country. A Minister making such a de-
claration, however, calculated as it was to excite great
th,btloe
expectationu and 'arouse great masses of the people, should
havetisf,,been prepared wine a measure more likely to give
sa
• etiereto those who, under those circumstances, could
ofn f•ft besaid
Noble
great body beunjustly' discontented. Was the measure
of Lord calculated to give staisfaction to the
n
he would . point Bailee)
majott,tahined that it was not, and to that end
the Reformers of this country? lie (Mr.
would prevent it fraocrialtinsuring the confidence of all sin-
ceresome radical defects which
the statement of the 41Naoitg:
red, and that it was desirable
Reformers.
for the sake of argument,
,
Lord last session was tier-
thetherefore to increase the
power of the democracy of
it was not a
flit le remarkable that the first
mea-
sure to secure that object was and most obvious
his Hill—altogether ignored_onzeither omitted from
duration of Parliaments. It was generallyyshortn the
I the increase of the duration of Parliamentadmittedthat
had been
utb
1 heaviest blow ever inflicted on democracy in this e
try, inasmuch as it made the Members tree, and
remit-
tedcon the prospect of being called to account by their con-
stituents to too remote a eroded to influence their con-
duct. It was well known that Hon. Members held a dif-
ferent course at the commencement of a Parliament from
that which they held towards its close; and if proof were
lone, it was wincing, furnished by the Noble Lord himself.
The Noble Lord represented a large and liberal consti-
tuency. For the first tour year`, however, of the present
i Parliament, though the Hon. Menair.r for Montrose an-
nually brought ter ward the question of Parliamentary
i 'refines, on • fire:dyes-nay, obsti-
nately—opposed every occasion was
newly—opposed by the Noble Lord and the members
PI of hi* Government. The Noble Lord entered into no
compromise with the Hon. Member on those occasions;
but on the contrary, did rot spare his sarcasms upon
him and the party who supported him. Such was the
position of the Noble Lord with respect to the question
of reform until the middle of the last session of Parlia-
ment, when that which the
eloquence and ability of the
Hoe. Member for Montrose poled not effect was accom-
plished by the near approach of the period of dissolution;
and at the close of tee session accordingly the House
was surprised to hear that the Noble Lord and his Ca-
binet had been unanimously converted to reform.—
(Hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord was, however,
much mistaken if he believed the present measure would
give satisfaction, unless it was accompabied with a
eLuse to shorten the duration of Parliaments. The next
question was one of great importance—one which the
Noble Lord did not even pretend to ignore* It. was the

LONDON,

question of small boroughs. The evil W" admitted by . vourable to a large extension of the Suffrage should make
, :7e ~,1 , ~- '- , , ,• • - t \T It T ' i'' '''''''' "t .1." N'''.l-' r.iirrl d'r) ti.,t their election be-tween the Noble Lord's plan and their own.
,•, was not a c tupromise that was proposed to them, bat
~ i • ';- r -:--1,,,, , i:.,3 tra.svi,c., o' Lun'l n - It
a.nnoinstalment that was offered. And thr Noble Lord die-
in il;eti ',li ;:ea'r:'2;hrs' wo.i acimitted to be a ti;gia,e' e i:, the
ti tiv pointed to the time when it might be in the power of
p,3st-tn of Parlut:oen.,..,ry reprcsente.tion. Toe Re-
' the Mini:Act. to propose and of the Parliament to agree to a
forna Act of isn2 prof,,,ed to cx;.inguish the 1
) measure of further reform. The measure now brought for-
rotten;ward was not reposed as a final measure, but as the only
borongh system, bat it f,iled to accom-
plish that ot,j'c'. A line was drawn by which a great measure that the circumstances of the country and of the
number of these small horruiglas hlti boon retained, hour wa,rantel the Noble Lord in hoping
and the country had by this means the seaucial— approbation of Parliament. In agreeing to the present Bill,
for it was nothing else—of a great number of Members there was nothing, therefore, to preclude its supporters from
of Parliament being nominated by Peers, There was riving their votes hereafterl to a scheme for triennial Par-
the borough of Marlborough, the &ember of which was ilaments and household suffrage. . The ballot was necessary
nominated by the Marquis of Ailesbury ; the borough of
Malice, byEerl 'Fifiestifiem ;' the borough of Rich -Mond,would receive the
to protect the voter against intimidation, whether exercised
-Iry customers over shopkeepers or by meddling Roman Ca-
b the Earl o Zeiland •, the borough of Ripon; by Earl
do Grey ; the borough of Tavistock, by the Duke ofw - e (mkt ee exopose diolie priee's "over _members of- the' -ti T . d
measure. It was also properly proposed-to undo the compro-
conglemeration of small boroughs in Ireland - was • a wise
Beriferd—(No, DO—the borough of Caine, by the M:ar- mice into which the House entered with the House of Lords
via or Tavistock. There were many other boroughs last year, and by which the franchise for Irish boroughs WAS
nominated in the same way, hut he would not go through fixed at 8/. The Noble Lord's plan,however, was defective as
with them. It was quite 'obvious that there could be no regarded the counties of Ireland. At present those counties ,
proper Reform Bill unless it was one that dealt with possessed no more
been a. fairl number of voters, but when the '
this question. The Noble Lard bad dealt with it in a small todwtno shouldsthe boroughs,vittriclirawn from the counties and ag-
very imperfect manner. By joining two or three toes-
-6 groetfladtebe reduced one-half, anedetTstituencies in many counties
fiber as proposed, you would throw power into the
handsw of proprietors, inwhose thrown more than ever into the
families the representation
hands of a few persons, and some such practice as oc- was _vested and transmitted as a heritage from father to
ourred in Scotland would soon take place in those son. Of that part of the Bill which related not so much to
new boroughs, by the parties agreeing alternately to Parliamentary reform as to the great question of religious
make the return. The only way of dealing with the liberty he cordially approved. On the whole, the Bill was
question was by abolishing these boroughs altogether. entitled to the support of the friends of Parliamentary re-
lthe great question in whic the people of Ireland and form, and he was glad . to see that the members of the
Scotland were deeply interested, was to whom the power country party were disposed to remember the eld conditions
of
was to be transferred. In the Reform Bill of 1832, Scot- • that party, and to vie with the Noble Lord in the race of
land and Ireland were unfairly treated. Scotland, with reform.
Mr. TRELAWNY rose and begged
3,000 000 population, had. only 61 members, and Ireland
nression which he had to withdraw an ex-
with 6,000,000, had 105 representatives; while Eng-
Hon. Member for Inverness-shire. inadvertently used with respect. to the
laud, with not more than a three times larger popula-
Sir J. TYRELL observed, that the friends of reform
lion, had five times the number of representatives. The seemed to find it very difficult to define the principle of the
people of Scotland ire well able to appreciate the ad- proposed Bill. New, he ventured to suggest that if it were
vantages they enjoyed under the British constitution: entitled "a Bill for the, continuance of her Majesty's pre-
and they had not asked the House to make any change sent Ministers in office," it would not be a bad definition of
in the representation. They felt it was easier to pull its object at least.—(Hear, and laughter.) If one might
up with evils they had than" to fly to others they knew judge by the declarations of those who called themselves the
not of." But when the Prime Minister, with the sane- friends of reform, the meastirewasnert likely to give general
tion of the Crown, brought in a new Reform Bill, and satisfaction. The Hon. Member for Bolton denounced it in
and
tote, whilst the Hon. Learned Membe f
took the responsibility on himself, the Scotch would be rheor Youghallb
Ras dissatisfied because it did not substitute t
wanting in duty to themselves did they not demand a more for the confession-box. As far as he could form an opinion
equitable distribution of the power of Government cud of the measure from the Noble Lord's statement, it appeared.
toe representative system. He was satisfied the people to be rather a milk and water affair. As regarded Essex, in
of Scotland would be unanimous on this point. Soot- which Harwich was situated, the Bill was a very harmless
land was united in feeling and interests; and few though measure indeed. Still, if the measurelt was not likely to give
they were comparatively in that House, they had often satisfaction to the country genteraaey,ahee should feel himself
succeeded in arresting the hand of the Minister, and they at liberty to oppose it. het
forward V
a' S veone knew,the
Noble Lord had brought.
would do the same on this occasion. The people of Ire- then, canvassingmeasurein
order to keep himself in office, and doubting its sue-
justice;land also would come forward with a demand fur equal
cess at the close of his speech he endeavoured to ingratiate
and, if they did so, he should not despair of mak-
himlielf with the Manchester school on the subject of educe-
ing their united voices heard and respected on this question, by the way of throwing out one anchor to windward in
lion.. He would ask the English Members to look at the event of the Government being displaced.
the position iu which they would be placed if a Prime Colonel SIBTHORP claimed credit for having suggested
Minister was always to have a little Reform Bill to the 501. clause, which the Marquis of Chandos subsequently
launch before the public in order to create for their own adopted and carried.—(Hear, hear.) He had the honour of
purposes 3 popular ferment. The House ought to have a seat in the House when the Noble Lord brought forward
to be a
a pretended Reform Bill which would enable Govern- the Reform Bill, which was announceder final measure.
went to get up an excitement year after year; they must Now the Noble Lord proposed anothaußeformtii Bill, on the
nave final and fall reform, not a progressive system of principle of " any port in a storm,' d
dirtye stress he was
reform, If to maintain themselves in office Government driven to was evident from the very
for the
port_. in which he
had condescended to take refuge for the brief remaining
chose to keep.up a system .of agitation, on their heads
period of his official existence. The Noble Lord and hisg
must the consequences that would ensue be solely vi-
colleagues hadresorted to every species of trick to
sited,—(Hear.) themselves in office, but they would soon meet their reward.
Mr. ROCHE congratulated the Hon. Gentleman who had Mr. W. 0. STANLEY was understood to express his ap-
just sat down upon the liberal speech he had made in favour probation of the measure.
of reform.—( Hear, hear.) Nobody could doubt the march Mr. DISRAELI_Some doubt, I understand, prevails as
of intellect and the progress of opinion when we heard to the time at which the Noble Lord purposes to move the
sentiments so liberal coming from that part of the House second reading of the Bill. I was, unfortunately, not in the
which used to be called the "Tory camp"—(Hear, and a House when the Noble Lord referred to this subject, but I
laugh)—and he confessed be greatly desired to see the mea- understand that the Bill is not ready to be laid upon the
sure of reform which was apparently to be brought in by table. It is customary when a statement of importance,
Hon. Members sitting on the Opposition benches. The such as that which the Noble Lord has this evening made,
people of England and Ireland would, he thought, be greatly is addressed to the House, that the Bill on which it pro-
satisfied with the success of this debate, as far as regarded fesses to he founded should be laid on the table at the same
the speech made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. time-(Hear, hear)—but I understand it is the intention
Baillie), whose views went far beyond those of the Noble of the Noble Lord not to bring in the Bill until Wednesday
Lord on the subject of reform, and the speech of his Hon. next.
Friend the Member for Manchester, showing a qualified Lord J. RUSSELL—I will bring in the Bill on Wednes-
approval of the Bill. It was quite evident that a Reform day, or, it may be, Thursday. I will then propose that it be
Bill the country must have, because both sides of the read a second time on Friday fortnight.
House seemed to consider it necessary; and, notwith- Mr. DIaPAFLI Noble Lord's explanation is not
S t , —The
standing the shortcomings of the Government Bill, he was satisfactory.—(ilear hear.) It seems to me impossible to
glad that,
.as. he understood, it was the Noble Lord's inten- consider this question properly until we have the Bill in our
tion to extend it, in all its integrity, to Ireland. He had hands. - The Noble Lord's statement was very interesting, no
understood the Noble Lord to say he intended to extend doubt, but, before " definite opinion on the subject
ut, efole coming to a
this Bill in its integrity to Ireland. Now he agreed it is a necessa 1' 'ar that we should have the Bill
with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down that a before us. Threytirtureeitmoin
be allowed for the consideration
great injury was done to Scotland by the present apportion- of the question must of course date from the moment
went of the representation, but a greater injustice to Ireland. when the Bill shall be laid on thetable. I think a fortnight,.
Nothing could be more monstrous or unjust than the prin- at this period of the session, is not a sufficient time. Sixty-
ciple upon which the representation of Ireland was settled seven boroughs are to be dealt with, and certain towns are
by the Reform Bill. If population alone were taken as the to be connected • h inhabitants of these towns
with them. The
basis of representation, Ireland, instead of possessing only ought to have an op ortunit f making known their views
y o
105 representatives, would have '207. But if the represen- and feelings on the sPubject. I believe that much more con-
tation were based upon population and property combined siderable time than the Noble Lord now proposes to grant
the number of the representatives for Ireland in that was given when the first Reform Bill was introduced. When
House would be 150. The Noble Lord proposed, wherever Sir R. Peel Bill for the repeal of the corn-laws
introduced the
the number of electors for a borough in England or in 1,46, he proposed that more than a fortnight should
Scotland fell short of 500, to group other towns with elapse before the second reading, in order to allow the
them and to extend the constituency. Would the Noble country to express its opinion on the measure. The House
Lord apply that principle to Ireland? If a borough in should recollect that not we alone, but the country, should
Ireland had less than 600 electors would he join that to
be allowed a full and fair opportunity of becoming acquainted
other towns? (Several Hon. Members: " yes, yes; he with this important measure. In point of detail the Bill
said he would.") There were 24 boroughs in Ireland with for the repeal of the corn-laws can bear no comparison with
less than 500 electors, and, omitting Belfast, there was only the measure which the Noble Lord has sketched, but which
one borough out of the remaining 23 which had a constitu- he is not prerared to lay on the table of the House. (Hear,
ency exceedii;g 500. There were 16 or 17 boroughs where hear.) Even if the Bill were ready to be produced, I think
the constituencies numbered less than 200.—(Hear, hear.)
e a month should elapse before the proposal of the second
In many other boroughs where the constituencies were re- reading. I say again this time is necessary, not for us, but
turned as over 200, the actual number of the constituency for the country—for those who are to be affected by the
did not exceed 200. He was informed by his Hon. Friend Bill. No measure of this kind ever gave content unless it
(Mr. C. Anstey) that the constituency of Youghal, which were accompanied with the power of investigation, and it
was returned as 261, dirt not actually exceed 200. When the may be of rejection. It is a most unsual thing for a Mi-
repeal agitation was rife, and a great desire existed in Ire- ulster to come forward and make a statement of importance,
land for a legislative separation between the two countries, introductory of a Bill, without being able to produce the Bill
the Irish Members were asked why they did not attend the itself.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") I would object to this
House of Commons and state their grievances there? But course of proceeding, even if I assumed that the Bill was
when they did, they found themselves unjustly outnumbered. delayed by some mere technicality, and that, after the seven-
The present House of Commons was packed against them by teen or twenty-seven Cabinet Councils which have been held,
the Reform Bill, and it was useless for them to attend at Ministers have really made up their minds on the question.
that time. The same evil still existed. He wished the _(A laugh.) But when we know that Ministers continue
Noble Lord would take into consideration the propriety of to meet daily the case assumes a very different aspect. The
throwing some of the Irish boroughs into the counties. The Bill, when produced, may be invested with a great many
representation might be taken from sonee of the boroughs details which the Noble Lord has it not in his power to oom-
and given to the counties, without altering the balance of municate to us.—(Hear, hear.) If when the Bill is laid
conflicting interests in that country. He called upon the upon the table we find in it anything which may not agree
Noble Lord (J. Russell) to consider the justice due to Ire- with, or be additional to the statement we have been fa-
land in the matter of the representation, which had been so voured with to-night, that would be a reason for a longer in-
forci6lY brought under his notiee by the Hon. Gentleman terval between the first and second reading than the Noble
opposite (Mr. Baillie). Lord proposes. Considering the importance of the question
Mr. ME Wolke ATE wished to be informed when the Noble —considering that the Minister himself has not
Lord proposed to take the second reading; because in a Bill made up his mind, apparently, to 'the details •of
of such magnitude sufficient time ought to be given for the his own measure, I do not, I think, ask too
consideration of the details. He had not risen with the in- , much in demanding a longer time for a consideration. I
tention of entering upon the general question, but he must think it is much better that we should have a month, and
express his regret that the Noble Lord seemeddetermined that is not a great deal more than three Parliamentary
not to add tne sanction of Christianity to his measure.— weeks, to enable the country to make itself acquainted with
( Hear, hear.) He regretted that he had added that alien the measure. So far as lam concerned, lam not disposed
element to his Bill, with the title of which it had no osten- for discussion on the present occasion. I cannot, however,
sible connexion. He would express no opinion at present on help congratulating the Parliamentary reformers on the con-
the first principle of the Hill, which proposed to extend the tent with which they seem to have acceted the measure of
franchise by lowering the qualification for counties and bo- the Noble Lord.—(A laugh.) It does appear to me, how-
roughs • but he had great doubts relative to the novel element ever, that those gentlemen have shown theniaelves satisfied
proposed' to be introduced of a floating constituency, con- with very short commons.—(A laugh.) So far as 1 have
nected with no ties of property or residence, and qualified by been able to form an opinion, I
• must confess that it does
the payment of a certain amount of direct taxes. But then appear that the Noble Lord has, on the whole, observed the
they found a Jew Eat tacked on to the end of the Noble rule which he has on more than one occasion laid down
Lord's measure, for no purpose, as it seemed, but to conciliate in this House. My impression is, that there is nothing in
the support of that small section of the community and to the scheme, as it has been explained to nig ht, which has a
offend the House of Commons.—(Hear.) tendency to disturb, I will not say the balance- between the
Mr. TRELAWNY thought it unfair in the Hon. Member two great interests of the country, but the adjustment that
(Mr. Baillie) to call ,the borough which he (Mr. Trelawny) was made at the time of the Reform Bill of 1832.—(Hear,
had the honour to represent (Tavistock) a nomination bo- hear.) Ido not use the word " balance" because I do not
rough, and he trusted the Hon. Gentleman would retract think that balance exists ; I think
there is a preponderance
that assertion.—(A laugh.)a ,The Hon. Member, following in favour of the town and commercial classes in the ad-
the tactics of his leader ("r• Disraeli), who reserved to him- justment as then made; but I do not think, so far as I
self the opportunity to outbid the present Government by a can form an opinion from merely listening to the oral
further extension of the suffrage, wished to catch the Irish statement of the Minister, that the new project has any
Members, by pointing out the greater proportion of English serious tendency to disturb that adjustment ; and therefore
as compared with Irish Members; and sought probably on that ground I feel I am considerably relieved.—(Hear,
to defeat the Government by combining two warring ele- hear.) At the same time, I tell the Hon. Member for
merits. He (Mr. Trelawny) only wished to caution the Manchester that I cannot at all agree with his dogma that
Liberal party how they suffered ethers, to introduce division the existing adjustment is at all destroyed by boroughs like
into their camp. The experiencee of other cenntries was Thetford returning two Members and cities like Manchester
such as to induce the hope that the institutions of the returning only two Members. Throughout the whole of .the
country would not be perilled by the measure now Pro- arguments I have heard on this subjeet from Gentlemen op-
posed• by the Noble Lords It might hereafter be extended, posits, both here and as reported in other places, a great fal-
if it were thougat desirable to go any,efurthern ,aend sehe trusted lacy is observable, and pervades all that they bring forward
the Liberal party in the House *mu' "cep"' -Dill as it on the ribject, as I shall be prepared to show at the right
stood at present. He repeated that he trusted the Hon. time and on the fitting occasion., The Hon. Gentleman has
Member for Inverness-shire would apologize to him and to referred to the case of Thetford and Manchester, and it is
the borough he reprssented for his.presumptuous remark.— only beeause he has
,__ done so that I 'enter upon the sub-
(A laugh.) He did not know what the Hon. Gentleman ject at all now. 1). hen the Hon Gentleman refers to the
represented—whether his pocket or his brains; but, if the authority of one who has shown, no doubt, great intelligence
latter, he must have a rather narrow constituency. and much industry in giving information on many of these
Sir JOSHUA WALMSLEY thanked the ]_lon. Member points, and then peoceeds to found upon that information the
for Inverness-shire for making the proposal he had done fallacy that the-population and .the property of the great
with reference to the increese of Scotch and Irish Members. towns ought to be the test as to representation I must take
He might contrast this proposal with some observations leave to say that Ido not admit the position.—(Hear, hear.)
that had fallen from Gentlemen calling themselves Liberal The argument that because a boron h like Thetford re-
Members on that side of the Housc_alleary_and he could man two members therefore Manchgester should return
not but feel surprised that those Gentlemen should have ex- the number of Members proportionate to its population,
pressed themselves in favour of a measure, which, -in his and property, is an inference altogether erroneous. The in-
opinion, deserved anything but that. He was confident it ference, indeed, is the other way. It is
that such places as
would not meet with approval out of doors.—(Hear, heat) Thetford should not return two Me h
mee, not that Manches-
It was indeed a small measure, and would be regarded bY ter should return more.—(Hear, hear) I . •
the country as unworthy of the Noble Lord and his col• a paper which has just been brought hold in my hand
Under my notice. It
leagues. 'The Noble Lord had referred to some fifty or sixty refers to the case of a great northern county, in which there
boroughs returning two representatives each, with a smaller are large manufacturing towns —I mean the division of North
constituency than 500. Was the Noble Lord aware that 'Cheshire. The population is 217.--- Ona
, and there are two
there were 627 large towns in this country assessed to the manufacturing towns in thethe division, Macelesfield,with a
income-tax to the amount of 15,300,0001., which were to- population of 33,000, and too celebrated_Stock ort, with
and did he suppose the inhabitants of upwards of 50,003, the two towns together ha • P ,
tally unrepresented;
so under what was tion of 83,000, which, deducted from the having a popula-
those towns would be satisfied to remain
this whole population
would be the
termed the
might find through the two manufacturing towns, with 83 ote . • •
case, except such representation as they
~ 0 'inhabitants, re-
thethe rural
persuaded that this turn four Members, while
county constituencies. He was ion of 134,000
rights of the return only two Members.—(Hear, hear
Bill, .or any other, which did not recognise the
tax-paying and in • dustrial classes—the wealth-producingthe figures laid 'n by the Hon.• Huts admitting
that asuow Gentleman were
satisfaction to the right, they would only prove that places like Thetford and
tin in Cheltenham should not have two
country. Another most important point was wanting
_Members, not that Man-
thisanomegex- cheater should have more.-- (Hear, hear.) vv•
Bill—the ballot.—(Hear, hear.) Ile had had some ith regard to
in the this second point, as I should feel it my duty perience at various public meetings in this countrytoopose the
the Billthought there was any attempt to
last few years, and he had never attended any where establish t
derance ot any particular part of the he pre-
ballot had not been unanimously supported.—( ear, hear.) pon ;
;House, I must re-
The serve my opinion regarding it till we have
employers of labour, as well as the employed, concurred the de •
tails before
us —Olean hear.) When I see how
that any extension of the franchise without the ballot would . the Govern-
bet propose to deal Kith 60 or 70 boroughs
little better than a mockery.—(Hear, heir.) As this was men
th boroughs and how ose are,when I see
merely the introduction of the Bill, he would not enter into whatthen are to be
under the new arrangement,
its details, but would reserve any remarks on its anomalies managed
my opinion. But'then I shall
and inconsistencies for the second reading. The Bill was to- know how to givethe arrangements of the I shall sup-
tally unworthy of that House, totally unworthy of being pose now that
d.
I shall Government have
called a Reform Bill, and totally unworthy of the Noble Lord been made and accomplished.
subjects assumewhich bthat in 1852,
and his colleagues. • after the experience on these
creditable the
House has
Lord J. RUSSELL in 1t•of the Hon acquired, any of those not very Maaceuvres as to
rep y to .the ques ion •which
Member (Mr. boundaries distinguished
Newdegate), said he proposed to take the se- the settlement of the
Bill will not very easily
the set-
eond reading on Monday ' • tlement of the first Reform . IT easily occur.—
Mr. HERRIES asked se 'might. that
t believean
in the halide of Members?w hear.) I cannot when the Bill would be printed and (Hear,. . • • - Party in this
ll support a Minister in any
Lord J. RUSSELL—On w . House, or out of it, tvi
hs the object of which • - arrange-
Lord J. MANNERS V ' ednesday or Thursday. went of the new boroughs the
hear.) is to support
enough for the
aouht that a fortnight was not long his own party in Parliament.—,Hear
knowledgeboth I have that
of
considerationof a Bill ff ' the increased the House of
terests. The House were palled a ecting such vast in confidence in
ountry, as to feel that those
principle and details of the Bill, upon to sanction the whole Commons and the c
sse
_., hear.)
Whether manoeuvres
to give them a longer period than aanpl the Noble Lord ought cannot be repeated.— It althen, I loot:
it from the Noble Lord, ' `
J. RUSSELL—I do not attach great ' at the Bill as I collect
not 01Mosed to where it ap-
Lord
seght, and have no objection eat Importance to pears to me to have a character existin • the constitu-
Mondaythat week (the 27th inst.) to name Friday in tionel arrangement at present g, or whether 1
Mr. M•
ng ther. HUE—that all arrangements respecting The sooner the better. assume, which I do,conceived and
'es will be
in a fair
Lord H. VANE could not agree with what had b new constituencies
two points grounds
"1 saidspirit, I do not find on these. of opposi-
by the Hon. Member (Sir J. Wahnsley) with regard USthe •
hear.) But I reserveto myself the full right
tion (flear,
shortcomings of the wile So far as his experience and in- .
' subject is fairly before the House—to consider
formation went—not derived, he admitted, from Lancashire —when the
dr
the circumstances of the case, it was a wise
or Yorkshire, but from other parts of the country—he be- whether,h
under
any measure upon the subject, and, it it
lieved that the measure would. be considered extremely an- i
weret m to
wise
thin.
g,
whether the present measure is one ads-
tistactory. He did not speak of its details, but of its prin- i utal
wis.ted to the case. I confess, so far as I can form
i q a e.y.sui
I do not feel bound, till the Bill is
• les 'the Noble Lord might have transferred one repre-
cip •
sentative of the small boroughs to some manufacturing' in m_
y hand, to give any opinion ; in fact it is not an
town; but the arrangement proposed involved as little in- i opinion but an impression I give—athe Bill snot
an
terference as possible with hostile influences. - I seem to me to be one of very questionable propriety.—
Mr 0. ANSTEY—it was not Proposed that Members fa-
.