The Sun.
London, England, 1864-01-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, JANUARY 28, 1864.

WHERE CAN WE MEE!' AF I'ER THE
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repression, but, not being able to again it they put
up, by way of satisfaction, with a treaty which was
not so advantageous as might have been wished.
Later, an insult in Mexico had been punished by a
vigorous coup de main by Admiral Baudin. But as
for equitable and discriminating repression in these
countries it could only be obtained by a good under-
standing with the governments. M. Thiers then
explained the present situation in Mexico, observing
that the country was divided into two great parties
—the Conservatives, called by their adversaries
clericals and reactionists ; and the ,Liberals, called
by their adversaries anarchists and revolutionists.
In the Conservative party there were many great
families of the old regime who wished to make
Mexico a second Brazils. The Brazils instead of
going for a republic had stopped at constitutional
monarchy—a word not in favour, but he could
not help speaking his own language. Under
the constitutional monarchy—(some murmurs)—
Brazil had found order, liberty, and growing
prosperity. But to procure similar beatitudes
for Mexico was a work of difficulty. In the first
place, they had had to look out for a prince. Had
analogies been followed, Spain would have been
asked to furnish one ; but recollections of the war of
independence had left Mexico a great repugnance
to the Spaniards. Then a somewhat arbitrary, not
to say fantastic choice of a candidate had been made.
They had fixed upon a prince who had certainly no
partisans in the country. . The Conservative
party had for its allies a Catholic clergy, which was
wanting in the virtues and intelligence of the clergy
in Europe. That clergy had been very wealthy,
and was mixed up in all the political troubles of the
country. Its property had been confiscated, and
now its great object was to get it back. M. Theirs
then came to the struggle between Miramon and
Juarez. The first was a courageous but not very wise
young man. The second was an Indian by birth, a lawyer
by profession, and, though now the enemy of France, it was
only just to say that his countrymen did not look upon
him as a dishonest man. He had shown remarkable
strength of character. Miramon was installed in Mexico,
and at the head of the public force, while Juarez was at
Vera Cruz without a piastre ; and yet by patience and per-
severance he succeeded in the course of a few months in
making his entry into Mexico, and Miramon took to flight.
Juarez founded a moderate Government and showed great
firmness in checking his Congress, in which the most
radical opinions prevailed. When the treaty with M. de
Saligny, the French minister, was broken, the right and
prudent thing to have done would have been to take pos-
session of Tampico and Vera Cruz, and receive the cue-
toms
duties at these ports until the debt had been liquidated, I
That was the English system in such cases. Not a very
brilliant one, indeed ; not one by which much glory could
be acquired, but safe and effectual. After referring to the
deceptive reports spread by the clerical party in Europe
that the Mexican people were so tired of Juarez's govern-
ment that they would rise as one man on the first appear-
ance of an invading flag, and acclaim the European prince
proposed to them, M. Thiers reviewed the original negotia-
tions with London and Madrid, showing that England
steadily declined to interfere in any way whatever with the
internal government of the country—and that Spain, while
prompting France to establish a monarchy, wanted to set
up a Spanish prince, which France would not consent to.
The zeal of Spain in the affair being thus cooled, she con-
sented—but not, as he (M. Thiers) thought, without an
arriere pensee—to the English convention of Oct. 31, 1861.
That convention was in reality but a negation, for England
only intended to take possession of Vera Cruz and Tampico.
Spain wanted to found a monarchy for the benefit of a
Spanish prince ; France had in her mind a monarchy with
an Austrian sovereign. Tinder such circumstances the
treaty, though in form obligatory, could only in point of
fact be negative. The Spaniards were the first to set out on
the expedition. They sailed from Havannah, and arrived
at Vera Cruz on Dec. 1. General Prim, their commander,
and who had been accepted by France as generalissimo of
the expedition, was a brilliant soldier, but full of Castilian
pride. He closely observed the state of the country, and
soon found that Europe had been altogether deceived when
it fancied that the monarchical party would rise as soon as
the European troops landed. About three weeks later the
French force, under the command of an able man, Admiral
Jurien dela Graviere, landed also. Ho agreed with Gen.
Prim that it was prudent to wait for the promised demon-
strations. But they.waited and waited in vain ; no monar-
chial movements took place. The forces, could not, however,
remain much longer at Vera Cruz,disease making great havoc
among them, The Spaniards had 2,000 sick. How many
French were sick had never been stated, but the number
was known to be large. The English force was only 700
strong, and of that number 153 were in hospital. The three
commanders, French, Spanish, and English, agreed that it
was impossible to remain any longer in Vera Cruz. They
marched a few leagues into the interior of the country,
where the troops found themselves a little better; and then,
as it was felt necessary to do something, they issued a pro-
clamation to the Mexicans, telling them that they had not
come to conquer or revolutionise their country, but merely
to claim pecuniary indemnities due to French, Spanish, and
English subjects. The form of an uliimatum was given to
this proclamation, andatherefore exact sums were stated.
England claimed 85 millions of francs, Spain 40 millions,
France 60 millions, and 20 millions were demanded on behalf
of some other nations. The total, amounting to 200 millions,
seemed rather high in regard to the capabilities of the
Mexican budget, but when, in addition, the Jecker bonds,
amounting to 75 millions, wire brought forward, the Mexi-
can Government was startled and hesitated to pay. He
would only say of the Jecker bonds that they had a very
bad reputation. However, it was agreed that the question
should be referred to the three European Governments.
But meanwhile three officers were despatched to the city of
Mexico with an ultimatum which could not have been very
peremptory or precise, because no amount was fixed. These
officers were most politely received,
and told that if the
European troops had come for justice they should most
assuredly have it, and that General Doblado, a most dis-
tinguished man, would go and treat with the plenipoten-
tiaries.
sick at Vera Cruz increased every day,
' findingm months, and that the t thathat
they the
couldnum b
havenumber of
no
a n The
answer
from plenipotentiaries, eEn iaprootpe ne tforr
tews
o on
gene-
rals were at the head of six or seven thousand men without
means of transport, negotiated with General Doblado, and
agreed that their troops should occupy the healthy heights
of Orez g
should retire from them
if h
The Mexican flag
was again hoisted at Vera Cruz, side by side with the flags
the negotiations
e,
toi
an t
iencondition
came thatt to nothing,
they
of the allies, but the custom-houses
were still kept as a
that famous convention
ed as so dishonourable.
It was a convention which had saved the three little armies,
opfle sdegiee. dad Here
which was
had the
been history
regao rd f
for they would have been destroyed by the vomit° at Vera
Cruz.

M. Granier de Cassagnac—We
should not have stayed
there,
M. Thiers—When would you have gone away ?
M. Granier de Cassagnac—lmmediately, sword in hand.
M. Rouher—We should have gone to Mexico.
Mbeen,jb in
whenai member
w e had —How could that
have
nofotthaesminagjtyloeriliorse to draw a gun
own)
M. Thiers, resuming, said that for his own
part he gave
great credit to Admiral Jurien de la Graviere for having
concluded the convention. (Applause on several benches.)
If anybody was to be found fault with, it was those who
had fancied it possible to conquer Mexico with a few thous-
and men. It was right that justice should be done to a
brave officer. (Several voices—(" Hear, laear.n
M. Thiers then showed that Almonte's party in Europe
had succeeded in getting the French Government to decide
that it would not treat at all with Juarez, and to espouse
the project of making Archduke Maximilian
Emperor. He
regretted that the Government had never published the
minutes of the conference of Orizaba of April 15, where
these things clearly appeared, from What M. de Saligny
and Admiral Jurien de la Graviere said of their instruc-
tions. Well, the war had gone on. After a year to repair
General Lorenz's check before Puebla, the gallant Marshal
Forey had been sent out with large reinforcements, and,
as was to have been expected, he had taken the city of
Mexico. He would, after these indispensable prelimin-
aries, come to the immediate and practical question.
They were in Mexico, and what ought they to do now ?
Why, he would say, treat with Juarez, as they ought
to have done long ago. General Bazaine, who was
reputed to be an able negotiator as well as a good
general, had already quarrelled with the Archbishop of
Mexico, who represented the old regime, and had admitted
that the liberal party was in the right as to the national
property. That fact showed that the liberal party could not
be such very great barbarians. It was no doubt disagree-
able to treat with Juarez after having protested so long that
they would not do so; but that was the only rational thing
to do, as it had been quite ascertained that he was at the
head of the strongest party in the country. If they did not
do so the prospect was a permanent army of 40,000 men in
Mexico, and a drain upon the budget of 13, 14, or 15 mil-
lions per month. As to the notion of setting up the Latin
against the Anglo-Saxon race, he did not think it worth
the consideration of serious men. The Archduke was
going out, they were told. He would arrive in April, just
in time to receive congratulations before the wet season set
in. He would admit that he would be well received; be
never knew of a new prince who was not. But the rains
would prevent say military operations between May and
September or October. During all that while the new
monarch must be protected, for they could not be so un-

generous as to take him away from his family and country,
and leave him to himself in a state of fearful embarrass-
ment. They must recollect that he would arrive there
without a piastre. Mexico was greatly indebted, and did
not pay her debts. England and Spain held the custom-
houses as a security for 200 millions, and nothing could be
got from that source till they were paid. The Archduke would
want, therefore, 300 or 400 millions to start with. Where
were they to come from ? A loan had been talked of.
A loan was no doubt easy if France guaranteed it; but if
such a thing were proposed, he would venture to say that
the habitually small minority in opposition would bo singu-
larly augmented. Without the guarantee of France a loan
was out of the question. M. Thiers then made the follow-
ing declaration in answer to an audacious statement of the
Monitcur —" It was said yesterday—geography being
,treated rather cavalierly—that we occupied already seven-
eighths of the country. I tell you that we do not otleupy
a twentieth part of it; and that out of a population of
eight millions, two at most are subjected to our rule."
A consideration most important to be borne in mind was,
that although both the North and the South of the United
States might for the present affect no displeasure at what'
was doing in Mexico, the only reason was that neither part
wished to offend France, whose interference one way or the
other at the present moment (an interference which he was
glad had not been attempted) might so materially affect
their interests. But it was tolerably certain that• once
the civil war over, the United States would forget all her
present politeness, and if she did not actually declare
war, would let loose hosts of disbanded soldiers, who would
desire no better employment than to overrun Mexico.
The Chaix d'Est Adge replied to him on behalf of the
Government, and was answered by M. Berryer.
The debate was adjourned.
Naval and Military Intelligence.