The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-04 00:00:00

1,1-PERIAL PARLIAIVIENT

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
INDIAN OFFICERS—BOUNTIES.—NAV VIES FOR
THE CRIMEA.

Tho Earl of ELLENBOROUG H. —My lords, as I see the
noble lord the Minister for War in his place, I wish toask
him a question which relates to a subject which has ex-
cited a great deal of interest. The first question relates to
the position of the officers of the army of the East India
Company as compared with that of the officers in the ser-
vice of her Majesty's army. A memorandum, dated the
25th of April, has appeared in the Gazette, which states
that--
"In order to remove any doubt which may exist as to
the rank and precedence of the officers of the Hon. East
India Company's Service, it is her Majesty's pleasure that
officers of the Hon. East India Company's Service, whose
commissions shall be signed by authorities duly deputed to
do so by her Majesty, shall have rank and precedence with
officers of her Majesty's regular army, according to the
dates of their commission, in all parts of her Majesty's do-
minions or elsewhere."
Now, the officers of the Indian army have by common
courtesy held in this country the same rank and precedence
as the officers of the army of the Queen,t and no doubt it
will be agreeable to them to have their right to such rank
and precedence properly established, instead of merely
holding it by courtesy ; but what I wish to know is if this
memorandum relates merely to their position in society;
because, if so, I should have thought that it would have
more properly proceeded from the office of the Earl Mar-

shal, or of the Lord ChambeLlain, than from the War-
office. I cannot help feeling that this memorandum, in.
stead of raising hopes of further advantage to the officers
of the Indian army, will rather tend to disappoint hopes
which may have been entertained that the Government
were prepared to go further,-and to give to all officers
holding brevet rank is India the same brevet rank in her
Majesty's dominions here and elsewhere. Your lordships
must be aware that from the year 1838, for nearly ten
years, a great war raged in our Indian dominions, and
that, therefore, the officers of the Indian service have had
the opportunity of making themselves acquainted with the
practice and science of war—an advantage which has
not been enjoyed by the officers of her Majesty's army,
with the exception of those who have served in India.
I rejoice, my lords, that there are some officers in the
army in the Crimea who have seen service in India. Gene-
ral Simpson, the head of the staff, General Pennefathor,
General Sir Colin Campbell, all holding high command, I
and enjoying to a considerable extent the confidence of I

those under their command, and also Col. M`Murdo, the
head of the land transport service, and Col. Harding, the
Commandant at Balaklava, who is, I believe, no relation
of my noble and gallant friend opposite—all these officers
have seen service in India, and all of them acquired a
knowledge of war under the late Sir C. Napier. There are
other officers also who have enjoyed similar opportunities
of acquiring a knowledge of their profession, and who
have commanded with distinction brigades which con-
tained regiments of her Majesty's troops, and who have
obtained great distinction in the Qiu.rtermaster-General's
Department. It appears to me to be contrary to all reason
that, when we have at our disposal officers who have ac-
quired distinction in command where war has been carried
on on a great scale, we should decline to avail our-
selves of their services, and should employ the services
of officers who, whatever may be their claim to dis-
tinction, have had no opportunity of showing any talent
for war. It cannot surely be held that to appoint Ipdian
officers to command would be an invasion of the privileges
of her Majesty's service. At a recent period, and contrary
to all former rule, a regulation of the East luda Company
had been made, permitting officers of her Majesty's service
to hold staff appointments of a particular description, and
not less than 12 officers of that service now hold appoint-
ments which they could not formerly have held. Why,
then, should there not be a reciprocity, and Indiln
officers be admitted to staff appointments us officers of her
Majesty's service are admitted to such appointments in
India? I cannot conceal from myself, nor do I think
that any of your lordships can be blind to the fact, that
a great and growing feeling of dissatisfaction -exists
throughout the country with regard to the conduct of
the war, and that feeling is assuming proportions which
are extremely alarming; and I much fear that,
unless it be determined by her Majesty's Govern-
ment to place the fittest, men in command of all the
divisions and brigades of the army and in situations on the
staff—l much fear, I say, that a feeling will grow up with
respect to persons in authority—(hear, hear) —and which
will be fatal not only to her Majesty's Government, but

which will go much further, and which will endanger tha
constitution of Government itself. (Heal, hear.) I wish
to ask the noble lord another question, relating to a dif-
ferent subject. I see there is a memorandum, dated April
30, which raises the bounty given to men enlisting for two
years to the same amount as that given to men enlisting
for a longer period. Now, with regard to that memoran-
dum, I wish to know whether it is to be understood as

establishing the principle that the bounty given to men
who enlist for a longer period is to be the same as given to
men who enlist for two years only ? If that be so, I fear
that the result will be that all persons who are desirous
of enlisting will enlist for this short period, because, at
the end oti that period, they will have the option of
engaging for a longer service, and with the certainty
of receiving some farther bounty. It seems to me,
too, that men who enlist for the longer period settle
down better to the work and become better soldiers than
those who enlist for two years only, and I would therefore
prefer enlisting men for the longer period. But of this I
am quite sure—that if the same bounty is given to men
who enlist for two years as to those who enlist for a longer
period, all will be desirous of enlisting for two years. I
think that when this memorandum was issued it would
have been advisable to notify that, if the bounty given to
men enlisting for two years was to be raised to the same
amount as that given to men enlisting for the longer period
the bounty of men enlisting for the longer period would
also be increased. I fear, however, that the noble lord
has 'made the same mistake with regard to the bounty
offered as was made in the case of the militia, and the
consequences of which we all so deeply deplore. My

own impression is that, if instead 'Of offering the
limited bounty of 20s. upon re-attestation, a higher
bounty had been offered, a very large number of men would
nave been retained in the ranks of the militia who have

now returned to their homes. There is another point to
which I wish to call the attention of the noble lord. I

am told that steps have been 'taken to engage the services
of 1,000 navvies to work in the trenches, and that these
navvies are to be placed under a gentleman who is to have
a salary of 2,0001. a year, that is a salary which, within
761., is equal to that of a lieutenant-general, and superior
.by about 2001. to the salary of the officers attached to the
quartermaster-general's department. I take it for granted
that those navvies will not consent to serve for the same
pay as that given to the Sappers and Miners, and it is a
mat ter of serious consideration whether men employed in
the same duties and exposed to the same danger should be
paid at different rates. What I desire to know is, whe-
ther it is true that it is intended to form a corps of this
description, and, if so, whether it is to be of a military
or civil character ? I can hardly imagine it can be of
a civil character, because it must be employed under
fire like the rest of the troops ; but if it be of a mili-
tary character, what rank is to be given to this gen-
tleman who is to be rewarded with a salary which sur-
passes that of any officer on the quartermaster-general's
staff; what difference is there to be between this body of
1,000 men and the Sappers and Miners ; what authority is
to bo given to the officers commanding them; and under
what authority are he men to serve?

Lord PANMURE—My lords, upon former occasions I
have had to complain that when questions were asked no-
tice was not given beforehand of the subject to which noble
lords intended to refer, but I am bound to state that in all
cases in which questions have been addressed to me by the
noble earl opposite I have always received the fullest in-
formation respecting the intended question and the nature
and extent of the answer which he expected to receive.
This },as enabled me not only to meet the noble earl in the
same spirit evinced by him to myself, but also to give your
lordships the fullest information in my power upon the
subjects to which be so ably refers. With reference to the
question which the noble earl has addressed to me on the
subject of Indian officers, I may state that the memoran-
dum to which he adverts goes no further in its spirit than
it does in its letter—namely, to confer upon those officers a
suitable position and authority, which has hitherto been
recognised by courtesy, but with respect to which some
doubt previously existed. No one can rejoice more than I
do at any mark of favour bestowed upon officers of the
Indian army,and no one would be more unwilling than my-
self to say anything which tends to detract from the praise
which is due to them. They have for a very long period
maintained the honour of the British name throughout the
vast territory in which that army has served, they have
maintained the integrity of the Indian portion of the em-
pire, and they have assisted in extending it ; still it is my
opinion, as well as that of many others, that the services
and distinctions of the Indian officers have been somewhat
unfairly used to put iu the back ground, by comparison,
the services and distinctions of the officers of the Queen's
service. I think, in a military point of view, the opportu-
nities those officers have had of practically learning the art
of war have certainly given them great advantages; but I
do not hold that those advantages ought to entitle them to
more than fair consideration, and, they should not be used
as an argument to prevent us from giving the officers in
the Queen's service the fair opportunities which that ser-
vice affords of showing whether they are able t 3 carry out
in practice the military knowledge whieh they alreadypos-
sess in theory. I cannot see, my lords, because the Indian
officers have already carved with their swords the way to
military distinction wby the same opportunities should be
denied to the Queen's officers of carving with their swords
the way to the same military distinctions. I have seen it
stated that the officers in the Queen's service are now classed
in two classes—the Peniusulars, who are said to be too old
to be effective, and the Know-nothings, who are too young.
That is nut a fair mode of treating the officers of her Ma-
jesty's army; for, preserving my opinion that the services
which are most calculated to advance the interests of the
country ought to be taken advantage of, I know ofnereason
why well educated and well trained British officers should
not be allowed to go into active service in connection with
the establishment. I am not one of thosewhooffisvuoetiistdoafdotupet
the course of confining the services of the
Queen's army, whether belongingtlioketlttheeesQtaubeelinstelialeorrs
to the Indian army—for they are a
—and I am not nisi-row-mind? enough
ought to make a distinction between
matterseens to think that we
theoceriss ofs twh,e
it
twios
services. Although progress iu t
also sure, and,
to the fact as an instance of the matntnheartiinn trt-hheicahetthoef
subject is treated, I may
of referCommander-in-Chief of the Indian
openalarsnitysewssaiosuthtrhoelocnifi-ce
_w it
ioh the
regardoffi officers of
the
ef
question
t iEoaus to
fI Liiffa
Conti
to which the noble earl has alluded, I am given
situ nay'sel , 9
to understand that, more by accident than
from any other
cause,
it happens that the staff situationsin England were
so numerous that have been filled by officers of the In-
div, as my, very much to the detriment of the performance
of the regimental duties of that army ; and it was found
necessary to recall some of those officers to their regimental
t:isand fill their places by officers of the Queen's army.
Those are the circumstances, I am told, which form the,
ground of the statement which the noble earl has just
' wade. I do riot believe that the officers of the Indian army

were superseded by officers in the Queen's service, but I
am informed that it arose from the number of officers on
the staff appointments, and that the change was necessary,
in order that th• r,zinie-Its in India should be made the
Wore efficient. With I eference to the next question—
namely, the bounty given to the recruits, that is a subject
to Ns-high my attention was called by the Commander-in-
Chief when the net was first introduced. My noble flieud
asked if it was intended to sanction the principle that men
enlisting under the new act should receive the same bounty
as the men who enlisted under the act of 1847. After ma-
turely considering the subject—taking into view the fact
that the men enlisted under the act of P 47 were enlisted
at the age of 18 for 10 or 12 years, that they had the op-
portunity, after 5 years' service, of acquiring an addition
to their pay for good service, and that they had the oppor-
tunity, after the expiration of their first term of
service, of re-engaging themselves fur a second period ;
24a n
forta g
se 8
as
lie', Vfrarivtol limcwaeoCtetc probably
hi
rew,
htaking also into consideration that none of these ad-
v toa
oh
rt7httsei r
eomfbeeeni
years,
whobe enlist
that
theat them e
n age
who of
toZawtohueladgebseo.fe2v4eannifi
35, wouldwho, e
not efficiently drilled, efficient as strong men—l did not
feel myself justified in giving to those men a lower rate of
bounty. It must be remembered, too, that none of these
regulations are permanent, but may be varied according to
circumstances ; and if I find that that arrangement is such
as to create discontent or prevent the enlistment of young
men of 18 years and upwards, I may consider whether
some alteration may not be required. With regard, my
lords, to a general increase of bounty, 'perfectly agree with
the noble earl that an increased bounty will, at all times,
obtain an increased number of recruits, and probably be
fore very long I may have to propose to your lordships
to increase the bounty in order to augment the army.
But it is natural that I should not wish to take that
course until it is absolutely necessary. With regard
to the question of navvies, it is the intention of
the Government to form a corps of navvies, not for the pur-
pose of working specially in the trenches, but for carrying
on the general work of the army, which has hitherto been
done by the Sappers and Miners and by the private soldiers,
and the execution of which I am sorry to say has hitherto
been detrimental to the health of the men. In order to
obviate the difficulties suggested, and to carry out the views
of the noble earl of having as many fighting men as pos-
sible at our disposal, it is intended to attach, under the
command of the engineers, a body of navvies of stout work-
ing men, who will be sent out for the purpose of working
either in the trenches or in the camp, as circumstances may
require, while the army is engaged in the siege. No defi-
nite sum has been fixed upon as the amount of payment to
these individuals ; but it is utterly impossible to expect
that men will come from civil employments, either in the
capacity of labourers or of directors, for the usual pay
given to persons in her Majesty's service. I have only this
to say, that I shall endeavour, if I think it for the public
service, to obtain proper men at the lowest possible remu-
neration ; and I shall not recommend the adoption of any
such corps unless I am convinced that the benefit likely to
result from its adoption will be so great as to counterpoise
the inconvenience that cannot fail to arise from employing
individuals at a higher rate of pay than that paid to the
officers and men belonging to her Majesty's service. These
men would be under' he command of Major-General Jones;
all the arrangements would be directed entirely by him,
the men being at the same time under the immediate con-
trol of their own superintendents.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the appoint-
ment of her Majesty's officers on the staff of the Indian
army was not an exceptional case, but was in consequence
of the adoption of a new principle ; there must, however,
have been sufficient authority to warrant that alteration
of the rule. No doubt the paucity of officers in the Indian
army might have been the cause of the alteration, but it
certainly involved altogether a now principle.
EMBARKATION OF TROOPS TO THE CRIMEA.
The Marquis of SALISBURY rose for the purpose of
repeating the question which he put to the noble lord the
Secretary for War on a previous evening. The noble lord
on that occasion complained that the notice of the question
he (the Marquis of Salisbury) intended to put was not suf-
ficiently explicit. He could assure the noble lord that it
was not from any want of courtesy that he did not in his
notice enter more into detail. The whole matter was
comprised in the very smallest compass, as it was simply
reminding the noble lord what must have passed through
his own office. With regard to what occurred the other
night, their lordships must be convinced of one fact,
namely, that the noble baron knew nothing of the circum-
stances of the case. On that occasion the ipble baron laid
the whole Llama of the transaction on the quartermaster-
general. Whether that was just or not it was not for him
to say ; but he thought, after that imputation by the noble
lord, the country had a right to know on whom the blame
ought to rest, and who were the parties by whom a
body of troops were despatched for foreign service. He
had always understood that, when the Minister for War
had received her Majesty's commands for such a purpose,
he communicated with the Commander•in-Chiel at the
Horse Guard., and that, after conferring togothor they
made an application to the Admiralty for the transport of
those troops ; the quartermaster-general was then directed
to take measures for their removal. It was esientially ne-
cessary to know who was to blame in this matter, and
why the Guards were sent to Portsmouth for embarkation
before the ship Alma was ready to receive them. The
blame of this transaction had been shifted from one quar-
ter to another until it was impossible to find to whom it
should attach. Ho hoped, therefore, the noble baron would
be able to give their lordships some information on the
subject.

Lord PANMURE said, nothing had been further from
his intention than to contradict anything which the noble
marquis had stated. What he had said w .s, that he had
heard for the first time from the noble marquis that the
events to which he had called attention had taken place.
If the noble marquis had given him notice of his inten-
tion to call attention to those events, he would have pre-
pared himself to give an explanation of them, and would
have entered into the details of the facts the other night ;
but all the notice he had received was, that the noble mar-
quis intended to put a question with regard to the embar-
cation of the Guards on board the Alma. The noble mar-
quis asked what were the regulations for the embarkation
of troops for foreign service? It rested with the Comman-
der-in-Chief to make arrangements with the Admiralty
and the other authorities as to the embarkation of the
troops that might be required ; and the War Department,
having signified to the Transport Board the number of
troops that were to embark and the time of the embarka-
tion, the Transport Board provided tonnage for those
troops by the day named. On the 20th of March the
Admiralty had notified to the War Department that the
Alma would be ready about the sth of April to receive
1,420 men. The Alma was fitted at Liverpool, and 420
men of the 18th, 71st, and 50th Regiments were embarked
there ; she then went to Portsmouth to embark the
Guards. She had been surveyed by the officer attached
to the transport department at Liverpool, and re-
ported to be fitted to carry 1,420 men, and she had also
been passed by Colonel Scott, the inspecting officer at Li-
verpool, as fitted to carry that number. When she wont
round to Portsmouth she was reported by the officer there
to be incapable of carrying that number, and he believed
this report arose from the fact that, while at Liverpool
they had calculated that a certain number of men would
be constantly on deck and upon watch, they had not taken
that circumstance into consideration at Portsmouth. The
authorities therefore deterthined that the vessel could not
carry more than 1,048 men. In consequence of this re-
port the detachment of the 18th, 71st and 40th Regi-
ments were disembarked at Portsmouth, were marched
into barracks, and remained at the depot waiting for
further orders. His noble friend (Lord Hardinge) re-
minded him that the commanding officer at Liverpool
had written to say that the ship was capable of cam ry-
ing 1,420 men. After some delay—which he thought bad
been somewhat exaggerated—in landing the detachments
and embarking the Guards, the vessel had sailed. A
statement had been made that a large portion of the
baggage of the troops which had disembarked were carried
'in the Alma to the Crimea. He had found, upon inquiry,
that nothing belonging to those troops was carried off, ex-
cept a couple of articles belonging to two officers, and he
was sure that if they had taken the smallest pains both of
those articles would have been rescued. There had been
some mistake with regard to the embarkation of the baggage
belonging, not to the detachment of the Guards which then
embarked, but to the Guards already in the Crimea. With
regard to the orders and counter orders which had been
issued, he had to state, that two of these counter orders
had arisen from the fact that a storm had taken place at
Portsmouth, which had prevented the Alma from being
brought into a position proper for the embarkation of the
troops, bat due notice of this circumstance had been
given to the troops before they had left London. He had
received communications from officers who sailed in the
vessel, to the effect that, whether as regarded their ac-
commodation or that of the men, none of them had ever
experienced more comfort in a transport, nor had the
health of the men ever been a subject of less anxiety than
while they hail been on board the Alma. With regard to
another question of the noble marquis, ho begged to state,
that it was his impression that every regiment which had
embarked from this country had embarked with the Minie
rifles. He was happy to state that all the men who cm-
barked for the East, whether in regiments or detachments
were, as far as possible, trained to the use of the Minie
rifle. It was desirable to carry on the usual drill on board
the vessel, and they were armed with the smooth-bore
musket, which they exchanged at Constantinople for the
Minie rifle, which was kept in store there for that purpose
He thought this a sufficient explanation of the circum-
stances ; and he had further to say, that the result of the
inquiries he had made convinced him that the Quarter-
master-General was free from all personal blame in the
matter, and that if any confusion had taken place it lay
between the district officers a; Livepool and at Ports-
mouth, who hail reported differently as to the capa-
city of the ship and the number of men she could
properly carry. There was a desire to send the men
on board as quickly as possible, and if an error had been
made it was on the right side—namely, to adopt that ar-
rangement which enabled the troops to be conveyed with
the greatest comfort. The result was that there had been
no complaint of overcrowding, and, indeed, none could
arise in this case.

----- -- ---- ---- ,
The Earl of HARDWICKE regarded the present discus-
sion as throwing some light on the present state of the War
Department. It was curious to see a noble lord ente,ring
upon details connected with a great branch of the service
who had been brought up to civil life (for his having been
bred a soldier was an accident) while the Cornmanderbien
d
Chief of the army, who .as one of tl-e most distioguis
..
soldiers in Europe, and who had all the details ofpiear:l3ra
at his fingers' ends, had to sit by and tutor a civilian
a bit of machinery that would not work.T
what he was to say. The War Department letenaepdpetaorebde
and they informed h
that the Secretary fort_WoaArtlivinroirtaie
ttyo;ththeenratnhscposrtect otaarrdy,
for War informed the Commander-in-Chief, and then
the embarkation took place. This seemed to be less simple
than the former mode: when the communication was only
between the Commander-in-Chief and the Admiralty.
.
Lord PANMURE said that the mode formerly was for
the Secretary of State for the Colonies himself to intimate
to the Admiralty the requirements of the public service.
Earl GREY—The Secretary of State for the Colonies
used to signify to the Admiralty that such and such regi-
ent of the former
meet:, were to be embarked at suchs
aatpelraa
The Aemiralt then made the necessary aeleoanngseut lday.
Earl MINTO would confirabmutthtihsatt
Ehabaeween three officers
practice.
TlieEwaerlreo of
tH HARpresentD W I C 1
required(
ship which would coney 1 00
stead of two, its formerly
at communi-
cations
ro :1 .-
thought that
take. It was singular that;
semraoeuat ht. Itfv,theoenvtreoyopl
men at Liverpool would only
arrivedLiverpo aotl, Portsmouth,
the
sh.fpe rearwriovueldd hatavpeobrtesemn
,s°°lloadineeran bwahrykellediheat
etvoreonywntadhgieen gisha;anadbeltiot whenummubcehr diminished that
definition as to the that
onuotholheer;
barked pueretsoanw, number of men who were to be em-
from ship
she could not con-
vey
dw hether they were to be under deck
Ought there not to be some clear
owrenreotp:aced in tiers a of 2,000 tons with a cargo of 4,000
soldiers going onstantinople to Samos, but the men
and no lb and fed by others, who went round,
an was allowed to move from his place. If this

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Lord STANLEY or;
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bshuttothtehr:owwirea difficulty
ionflireedbwlti'll which would excite remark, and he trusted an
opportunity would be given for this discussion.
Lord RAVENS WORTH asked for the usual indulgence
of their lordships in rising to address them for the first
time, and said that he might be allowed to express his t
concern that circumstances rendered the presentation and
acceptation of the bill 1.-Afore their lordships almost impera-
tive—he alluded to the failure of those negotiations at
Vienna, which he and the country were led to consider as
evidence of the prolongation of the war. He had hoped, as
peace was the evident wish and interest of all parties, that
some pacific arrangements might have been entered into,
and he deeply regretted that these expectations had been
disappointed. As, however, they had but war in prospect,
it became their duty to turn their attention to the means
by which the war might be carried on. He found that two
burdens of no inconsiderable extent were to be entailed
upon the country, and of those the present bill for raising
by loan 16,000,000/. formed an important item. The esti-
mates for the present year for carrying on the navy
uposizci
mounteda to more than 16,000,00 J/. ; almost an equal
was required for the army; the Ordnance esti-
d deal in anoletheer:
mates were between 7,003,000/. and 8,000,0001., while
3,000,0001. more were devoted to other military Fir-
might perhaprdenliciciet,uwrehiienh the whole hboelecoanmsiodueredntingmotreo
any remarks on ii.
present Loan Bill had passed the or-
directly the
must say that it was
guardiann:3odfi
dthneot,puhboliwceveexr,pewindshitureto
0,
ffand a it
y
thought presumptuous in him to offer
sion and criticism, andotha
direct opposition to the bill, but at the same time he
ground that
jesty's Government felt nature to excite some discus•
doors on the were bestowed upon it out of
at the end of the year her Ma-
of 21,000,000 i., it was at there would be a deficiency
hancel for
reked would it not have been
better for the C
gone into the market and raiselatlhe for the full
Exchequer to have
other devices for raising the requiredesitz
rather than to have coupled With loanamount
thalbythtai'xar
demand for the loan
of a direct and of an indirect nature?
adtgirointrbod
st hi
to go all lengths with those who objected ow
atshnot prepared
but he went so far with them as to feel
taxation was an earnest of the apprehension of the Govern
ment of an indefinitely prolonged war. If there had been reason for believing that the war would have :d in six or twelve months, then he should have concu with those who considered it unwise to resort to this mode
of indirect taxation by levying additional duty on articles
which entered so largely into the consumption of the work-
ing classes, and which would tend to disturb those arrange.
ments in taxation which had been made with the general
consent of the people. If, on the other hand, there was
reason—and he feared there was too much—to apprehend
that war would be prolonged much beyond 12 months,
then he agreed with the policy which included articles of
general consumption in the means for raising the required
amount to carry on the war. Such he knew were the feel-
ings of the mercantile classes, and he did not hesitate to
give his sanction to and express his opinion upon them.
He must confess that the prospects before us were dis-
heartening, and express the concern of this country and of
the whole of Europe that negotiations for peace had been
brought to a close; and he only hoped that those mistakes
which had arisen in carrying on the war on the part of the
Government, and that the profuse expenditure of the pub-
lic money without adequate results, would also be brought
to a close. (Hear, hear.) He considered that up •to this
moment her Majesty's Government had not taken all the
steps which they might have taken towards bringing the
war to a close. He could not help reverting to this time
last year, when, in the estimates before their lordships,
the expense of carrying troops as far as Malta was contem-
plated, and, at the same time, the expense of the return
of those troops was also estimated. (Hear, hear.) He
could not help recollecting that the noble. lord, one
of the most distinguished members of her Majesty's
Government, in another place, whom he could only de-
scribe as the unsuccessful negotiator of the interests of this
country at Vienna, seemed last year to entertain a trifling
opinion of the war iu which they were about to engage,
and declared thot it was so far from being an objection to
the reform measure which he introduced, that he con-
sidered it rather favourable at the same time that they
were entering upon a war with the most colossal Power in
Europe to engage also in the e civil ar of
- discussing reform
in Parliament. These considerations would now press on
his mind, because he had seen what the Government had
attempted, and also that they were not even at present
fully aware of the importance of having recourse to all
their resources for the purpose of patting an end to the
war. Although the Government had called on the people
for large supplies, they had as yet neglected to avail them-
selves of other means in their power of distressing the
enemy. The important question relating to the com-
merce of Russia had been brought before their lord-
ships about a week ago; but owing to the limited num-
ber of peers present it did not receive much discussion.
This was a question on which he felt so strongly that he
intended to place a notice of motion on the paper for the
purpose of again bringing this question under their lord-
ships' consideration. Having now shadowed out some of
the main objections entertained to this loan, and in doing
so discharged what he felt to be a duty, he would not tres-
pass further on the attention of their lordships but would
conclude by thanking them for the indulgence which they
had extended to him.
The bill was then read a second time.
DRAINAGE AND WATER SUPPLY.
The Earl of CAERNARVON presented a petition from
the Metropolitan Sanitary Commission as to drainage and
water supply. He described the system of drainage and
water supply now in force, both of which he said were in-
efficient. Lie said the stateliest mansions in the metropolis
had lying under them masses of decomposing matter, and
the very walls of that house were sapped by pestilent abo-
minations. Considering the fatal results attending .the
visitations of cholera, he urged on their lordships the ne-
cessity of souse measures being taken to render drainage
more perfect, and to obtain better and more plentiful sup-
plies of water.

THE VIENNA CONFERENCE.
The Earl of CLARENDON— My lords; before Your
lordships adjourn I wish to take the opportunity of apolo-
gising to .my, noble friend opposite for having quitted ,the
house on a previous occasion. My absence gave rise to some
remarks on his part, of which I do not complain, because it
is my business to be here, to answer any pardon which may
be put to me with regard to the department over which I.
have the honour to preside ; bat I quitted the house upon
that occasion because there was a great deal of business at
the Foreign-office waiting my return, and becauselthought
that my noble friend behind me (the Marquis of Lansdowne)
had stated that the Government would lose no time in
giving to your lordships the information which you have a
perfect right to expect. I hope that your lordships are not
under an erroneous impression that the Government have
any desire to withhold from your lordships any information,
and, for my own part, I hope that I am able to say
with justice that I have never shown myself unwilling
to answer any question which has been put to me, or
to afford any information which it was in yap power to
give ; and I consider that duty especially incumbent upon
me at the present moment of intense and natural anxiety
might:Juliacpasehaen
to be correctly informed with respect to passing events.
Nevertheless, I have too often experienced your lordships'
kind indulgence not to feel sure that evdn now you will
not wish me to divulge anything which might be injurious
to the interests of the service. My lords, as a proof of
`lie spirit in whiCh the negotiations at Vienna were car-
ried or, and of the desire of the representatives of France
and England to do nothing which could offend the honour
and dignity of Russia—as I mentioned the other even-
ing in answer to a question put to me by my noble friend
—the Russian Plenipotentiaries were invited themselves
to take the initiative, and to propose some method by
which they thought they could carry out the principle
to which they had assented. • The Russian Plenipo-
tentiaries acknowledged as, indeed, they could not
help acknowledging—the spirit in which that proposal
was made; but, somewhat to the surprise of theirtree_
col-
leagues, announced that they were without
.atnwyaiens
tious upon that important subject, and thTahteitime
neces-
sary neces-
sary fur them-to refer to St. Petersburg.
of France declined
mean-
time the representatives of England an
stood, or to
to alter the order in which the Itbhur points
point until some set-
lenient for that purpose was given to thecr , but in the
take any discussion upon the fioihir
regard to that most im-
had been arrived at
in called
to the
When
had come from St. Petersburg,
to receive the answer which
Plenipotentiaries said they had no proposals
the Russian renipotentiaries then submitted
TE,ouritealnlet,isnueb)jsetcetin,
-the meantshewofe tztetzs.eceheiengwTesurekgeey
to make. The allied Plenipotentiaries
they thought that Russia
to them
honourable to her as a first-
and in a manner highly.
f she had been
inclined to prove.
colcsheenmteed towithout auy hurt to her dignity,
class
that her policy vas as pacific as she had
to the world .
declaredPoweri she did. not contemplate. The
always declared it to be, or to remove the uneasiness of
sdkethclemfo,raß 48
wellhe u
ar hours
another
ther consider
~_ ,iving guarantees against future acts of aggres-
sion w
the proposal which was made to them, and at the end of
pro-
posal brought forward tEhuatssti:epalebusioploutetenl
by the French Ambassador, and
agreed to by us—to exclude all vessels of a f o the
Black Sea, and to render ' w r r m
it a sea for commercial purposes
alone. The conference was then suspended, not actually
broken off. My noble friend Lord J. Russell left Vienna
on the 23d of last month, and M. Drouyn de Lhuys re-
i trained behind fur a few
days, and that plenipotentiary
anti the Earl of Westmoreland.' were invited, on the part
of Russia, to attend another conference in order to receive
some propositions, and IL Drouyn de Lhuys and the Earl of
'Westmoreland agreed to attend. We are in possession of thec
terms of those propositions, but not co the discassionswh.h
took place upon them ; but the representatives of
were not
the allies
unanimously agreed that the proposal
likely to promote the object which w
My lords, this is the presentsntsate ider
any
though we are prepared.
° s ee
pc)sal on the part of Russia,
should
rable that these negotiations
ea at heart.
haveni
of things ; and, al.
distinct pro-
till it is not considered desi-
be continued without
• leading to any satisfactory result.
the probability of their .
protocols I find in the to be laid upon
Your lordships will
the table, not simply
the record of a conclusion which has
report of the discussions that took
• been arrived at, but a
p.l
• iace, and
of the feelings that were expressed by the re-
presentat' 1
vcs of each Power. (Hear.) I think your lord-
:
• ships may not consider the statement I have hadthe honour
to make to be either satisfactory or conclusive—conclusive
1 I mean as to what has actually taken place—unless I am
able to inform you of the course which Austria intends to
take hereafter--(hoar, hear)—and it is on this pairticnlar

point that. I hope that that prudence may be otserved
which I think the circumstances of the case really he-
ed. My reason for saying this is that at the conelusfon
of the conferences, or when they were suspended, Covet
Buol expressly stated that he considered that the rues
for obtaining a peace were not wholly exhausted, and
that it would be the special duty of Austria to en a-
your to. discover some mode of attaining that end cons st-
ently With the engagements into which she had entered w thc d
the. other Powers. My lords, whether any proposal that
may be thus framed will be likely to be satisfactory to her
Majesty's Government, I am sure I cannot venture to fes'Y ;
but on a question of such magnitude, as to whether it may
be possible to concrude a safe and honourable peace, I am
.
persuaded that your lordships will feel that anyproPo3'7
tion that may be made to us should receive a patient itntl
unprejudiced consideration from her Majesty's
Govern-
ment—(hear, hear)—and the more so, as that consideration -
is at the same time compatible with the vigorous preset
tion of military operations. (Hear.)
The Earl of DERBY—My lords, I freely admit. hat the
noble earl ought not to disclose to u s anything which might
Nevertheless, I must
be prejudicial to the public interests.te
be permitted to say that the statnmenet
nwfhaichvehr; 1117 just
satis-
niade to your lordships
oautpteelry, before discussions can
factory nature. 1:r
take place in this house upon the present state of public
affairs, it will be neceasarythat we should have before us
the papers which have been promised, and which I am
glad to find are not alone
and opinions of the various powers that were present' at
the conferences, but also the arguments and grounds upon
which those powers based their respective conclusions.
-undoubtedly, also, from such a collection of docnreents
we m,T gain considerable light, not only as to what is past
but on what is of still more importance—our prospects der
the future ; but I must say that, although I concur with
the noble earl that no prospect, however slight, of obtain-
ing a safe and honourable peace should be sacrificed by
this country, yet I have heard from him, almost with
feelings of regret, that an extent of forbearance has been
shown on the part of the Allied Powers in regard to their
demand upon Russia, the good policy of which may be
open to serious question. (Hear, hear.) The propositions
of the Allies having been totally rejected, and no counter
propositions—at least, none of a reasonable character
—having been offered by the enemy, I must repeat
that I learn with regret that fresh propositions and friish
negotiations are still in prospect, because I fear that tlr ay
can have no other object but that of wasting time and tin-
juring the cause of the Western Powers. I must say, that
I think the propositions which have been made by the
allied Powers to Russia are even now below those which
the requirements of the case demand ; and that the condes-
sions which were made to her, even if they had been ac-
cepted, would have rendereduseless—if not worse than Use-
less—the great expenditure of blood and treasure which
England and France have been put since the commenceni,int
of the war. I sincerely hope that the Government of Aus-
tria is earnest in its endeavour to bring about a s ife and
honourable peace—l hope it is in earnest in its desire to
fulfil its engagements to support by active assistance the
erideavoure of the allies to obtain a satisfactory peace, and
that it intends faithfully to perform obligations thiehepe
of inducing Austria to contract which has cost tegland
and France so much of precious time and valuable advan-
tage in their military operations. (Hear, bear.) My lords,
we are now in the second year of this war, and throughout
the whole of its progress we have been told over an.; over
again that, although it was quite true that her Majesty's
late Government and the members of the present Ministry
had clung to the hope of peace longer, perhaps, tbsn they
were even justified in doing, yet, that they ig i at all
events, gained one great and important advantage from
their singular forbearance, patience' and long-suffering—
namely, that they had secured, both as to active measexes
and as to negotiations, the co-operation of Austria, and pro-
bably of Prussia also. Well, two years have since elapsed,
and, according to the statement of the -noble earl to-aight,
what does that co-operation amount to in the pursuit of
which your vigour and enterprise were altogether checked,
and for the sake of which you adopted a ,;ilatoty
course of policy, which must greatly aggravate ties mis-
fortunes and calamities of war? At this mome:st, my
lords, Prussia is excluded altogether, and even stands
in an attitude of scarcely doubtful hostility ; while,
on the other hand Austria, for whose support you have
sacrificed so much, is now effectively an ally of Ruesia, and
opposed to the policy of the Western Powers. An t. is still
affects to entertain a hope that every means of ne;otiation
is not yet exhausted, and she proposes by further attempts
at negotiation, to continue—and no doubt with the same
results—the same system of perpetu il procrastination and
delay which she has pursued for the last two years. (Hear,
heir.) My lords, we are now in the midst of the second
campaign, and it is a matter of the utmost importance—it
is, in fact, the essential groundwork and basis of all our
future operations, that we should precisely know in what
position we stand, not only towards Prussia—for that is al-
ready pretty clear, I think—, but towards Austria likewise.
This knowledge must have the greatest influence, not only
upon the course we should take in negotiation, but upon the
military operations of our army-. It roust have the greatest
effect upon our conduct and plans to know whether or not
we are to reckon on the hostility, the neutrality, or the
active and cordial co-operation of the power and resources
of Austria, and every day and hour that passes without
our corning to a full and distinct understanding with Aus-
tria, and without our really knowing where we are and
how we stand, seriously aggravates our difficulties and
enormously increases our expenditure and our risks.
(Hear.) Therefore, my lords, although Ido not wish to
press the noble earl to make any statement which he may
consider would be detrimental to the public service, yet I
could not hear the explanation which he has offered us to-
night, leaving, as it clod, all the most important qus-stions
involved in these negotiations in just the same state of un-
certainty, hesitation, and vacillation as they have pre-
sentedfor so long a period, without expressing my regret
at listening to such an unsatisfactory statement-from a
British Minister. This prolonged uncertainty is almost
an equal evil to the avowed hostility of Austzil ; and
therefore, however important it may be for us to lose no
substantial prospect of obtaining a satisfactory peace, I trust
that her Majesty's Government will take care, even al-
though deprived of the advantage of knowing what are the
definitive views and policy of Austria, not to intermit the
most vigorous exertions for the prosecution of the war,
and not to suffer themselves to be diverted by these pro-
tracted and almost hopeless and illusory negotiations.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—My lords, it is not pos-
sible for her Majesty's Government to afford the noble earl
opposite the information which he not unnaturally wishes
to gain, with a due regard to the public interests. I trust,
however, that they will be enabled to furnish it soon • but
after what has fallen from the noble earl, I cannot refrain
from saying on the part of the Government that, althom h
they have had a desire—a desire which indeed it was their
bounden duty to entertain--to secure the co-operation of
Austria, nevertheless they have not been induced, from
any vain hope of securing that important advantage, to
&lay the immediate making of those military and naval
preparations which are essential to the proper conduct of
the-war. (Hear.) Undoubtedly, no expedient has been
left untried in the endeavour to obtain that degree of
co-operation from other Powers which we had a right to
expect from them ; bet during the whole course of tee ne-
gotiations, up to the conference which lately took place at
Vienna, certainly not a day has been lost in the advance-
ment of those military preparations and efforts which
might bring the war to a conclusion ; and while I main
tain that it is our duty to avail oniselves of every fair
chance of effectims, so desirable a result as a great Eurepean
peace, I equally hold that up to the last moment we ought
to relax none of our exertions for prosecuting the war
with energy and spirit. With the protocols about to be leis' upon the table your lordehips will receive an account of the arguments, the discussions, and all the collateral trans-
actions by which the agreement, based upon those proto-
cols, was accompanied. Undoubtedly, when they are
laid upon the table, a good opportunity will he ar.irded
for the consideration of the negotiations which have
taken place, with reference both to the part coeduet
of the Government and to the future policy of this
country, having in view the continuance of the war,
if it should be necessary, in order to pi event
the recurrence of those unfortunate niisconce-e ions
which has thrown Europe into the state in which it, is now
placed.
The Earl of MALIIESTURY—As I ventured this other
evening to express my humble opinion with regard to the
propositions made to Russia, in the hope of bringing about
a peace', and to state, my regret at the probability of a
peace having been diminished by the nature of these pro-
positions, I will not now make any observations upon that
subject. But I think there is some discrepancy between
the statement which my noble friend has made toesight
and that which he made in answer to me about a svee'e aeo,
I then understood, li,th from what was stated by my noble
friend and from what passed in another place, that her Ma-
jesty's Government and the French Government," eupn..rte,l
by Austria, and of course by Turkey, had proposed te Res-
the limitation of her fle.et, and
sia two alternatives-oe'
the other the nentralitnyofthtenßa Sea.talacskteme n t
Ttoh- la
that g iht.'„,:sni 7,
noble friend confined himself
had not accepted the propositions which had been made to

liar.
The Earl of CLARE:MON.—I said that thsplenipeten-
tiaries of Russia had refused to accept a Proposition which
we thought that country might
have accepted with honour
to herself,
as well as another proposition, by whit:4 the
Black Sea would have been male a neutral sea.
The Earl of MALMESBLTRY—MY noble friend is cor-
to !Zus.
rrt in saying that he described the
" "
1,, •t • • *th r (omity and hwur ,
plan suggested .
,t, , . ui oin unison wi e
av,,,rtiVq not state what the firstli
alternative iv,,,0 W. I
be lirniteit"r whether it
The Earl 9f was that the _Russian fleet ...Inuit'
Th. ~,,i
~f „T.,A.RENDON—Yes.
aft,
~; Itufi%ia,l4l,MESßUßY—Then it is, as I rimier-
ia,,_e,l t'4,, bothad tile choice of two
theyaltenatives, :1.71.1 re-
, raveblonfr Tinma pr c, p'e s :st,,t, hi respect to papers wilii4 tiny
eutirel
gd in thr:Vt, y 7. on the table, I hope he will nGt
martinis. Fe, °P' 137 au the Protocols, ledge of
any neaily „ 3.,m."Pression used
and I am en cou-
by the n,,ble
although at dir.P"4 relating "had
no
official
1-" w•
cegirt,,utim."7:o tlialhis important Stii‘ject,
from the pnbli
correctlyeer:f I borate diplomatic diplomatic d c',,,ln vhith? Tee, ived infor ..t•
Among them are surEi°--:"4 havel'el!"e many
v n'';‘)ll
from©
friend, which a% —y le onn"
from the Foroign.om :,at..1,1 conit,,Ze:lanating. ?ned•
foreign newspapers. In one of w"e Pr`Z kl'7l""'hiluj
fnr ~,t.:l:ble ti iend
has given his interpretation oftltilerefte9l'nSth'l3:3 -a-eP
Imul
the third point, which, as your
that may be argued upon and lordshipsexpian are ajjuther,,t•
according to the opinions and interests cOfin v a
~,ru% i\a. Otle
I believe I am correct in saying that a v r,,,(ll7reat p.;`, ti37e:.
has been published of what my noble ferietri.sta-tos,i,
the third point, and that there afterwards anniZl' by
ton, if not exactly the came, yet similar in most tea-„,
by the French Minister for Foreign Affairs. it ~,,,e.b.rtots,
very, satisfactory to the public, considering that no -„,,,,,!,
Lave been communicated to us since the beginnirg -4
lait year with respect to this question, if my ~obi„
fri*nA would add to the different proctocols as inn,. as
zt„.ile),o of the diplomatic documents that have 1,..,,5ed
" Min and the Court of Russia, and those doctunenta
1"n1.1 aIE,,,
Reu,e or I,_ greatly assist your lordships staking te i: lici
protoccds.
rect. view
(Tittkrnent in understanding aud a cot-
Earl of ce
Con my nehie fit'..ATtII•TDON—I hope, after the deem; ip-
has attributed talertnoli
—but I have given of the clasp ,tch which ho
no knowlicia.t it Was any despatch— (a laugh)
been published, 1
n0ver,,,,,,E such a despatch ever having
tainly I never coinrounic;Zeaito.or heard of it, and el"'
of my belief, the intention.' et,",any one. To th, be 4
ranee upon the first day of thi•ir --„.27,"(1.
that h
o.fife-
ceetlingss should be kept secret and.nit, that their -Te-
•
4441,10 g that ir,FSI3I
•