The Sun.
London, England, 1864-03-19 00:00:00

HOLSTEIN AND SCHLESWIG.

Mr, OSBORNE asked the First Lord of the Treasury,
whether her Majesty's Government had grounds for be-
lieving that the order of succession in Holstein and
Schleswig, which was contemplated by the treaty of Lon-
don, would ..be consented to by the Assemblies of Estates
in those Duchies ?

Lord PALMERSTON said that the question would be
decided by the Assemblies of Estates. The noble lord, in
reply to a subsequent question, denied that the treaty of
1852 had anything to do with this subject.
THE CHANCELLOR. OF THE EXCHEQUER
AND MR. SHERIDAN.

Sir JOHN HAY rose to move the following :—" That
this hduse sees with regret that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer has not considered it his duty, after the expla-
nation given last night, to withdraw the imputations which
he has cast on the hon. member for Dudley." He said that
in this case a question of privilege was involved. The right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last
night that if he had been guilty of what was charged against
him he was bound not only to apologise to the hon. member
for Dudley (Mr. Sheridan), but that he was deserving the
censure of the house, and on these issues he challenged the
decision of hon. members.

Tha SPEAKER interrupted the member on a point of
order, and said that the question of privilege should be de-
cided before the motion was made.
Lord PALMERSTON then moved that the motion of
the hon. imonet should havo precedence of tho orders of
the day.

After an animated discussion, in which Mr. Bouvrna,
Mr. ROEBUCK, and other hon. members took part,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER entered
into an explanation, and said that as regarded the society
in question he was prepared to adhere to his statement on
the facts on which it was founded. As regarded the hon.
member for Dudley he said that he had not heard the de-
claration he understood he had made of his not being in any
way responsible for transactions of the society, and if he
made that distinct declaration he (Mr. Sheridan) would be
entirely :freed from any adverse presumption, and would
be in the same position as if his (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer's) statement had never been made.
(Hear, hear.) On that declaration being made he
would be only happy to supply any deficiency in his state-
ment in regard to the hon. member. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHERID A.N said he had stated most distinctly
last night that he had been an auditor of the society
up to iss6, that he knew of nothing censurable in
the transactions of the society, and that in his official ca-
pan ty he was not responsible for any such transaction,
'
(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that his motion was rendered
unnecessary by the handsome explanation of his right hon,

friend.
"'he motion was then withdrawn.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was misinformed, and understood that the hon. member
had been an auditor of the society.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repeated
that he had been under the impresAon that the hon. mem-
ber had been auditor of the society in 1859, and he again
apologised to the hon. member.
Sir J. HA y then withdrew his motion, and the subject
dropped.

STATE OF RESERVOIR%
On the motion of Lord PALIIERSTON that the house
at its rising do adjourn until Monday, the 4th of April,
Mr. FERRAND drew attention to the state of Doe•park
azd other reservoirs belonging to the Bradford Corporation.

The kriel, member entered into some details as to the condi-
tion et the several reservoirs,"and;pointed out the dangerous
con,ANuences which might ensue if any part of the embank-
ra 'Alt were to give way ; urging at the same time the great
importance of appointing an inspector of all reservoirs,
whether belonging to a corporation or a private company.
Sir G. GREY said the hon. gentleman had taken an in-
convenient mode of bringing this matter under the notice
of the Government. His attention had been called to the
state of the Doe Park Reservoir two years ago, at which
time he had sent down a person to examine and report
upon the matter, and since then he had heard no complaiat
of any kind. If the hon. gentleman would be good enough
to place a statement in his hands setting forth the facts
relating to the prrsent condition of those waterworks, it
should be carefu:dy considered,
COLLECTION OF TAXES BILL.

In reply to, a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,

The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER stated
that, in cr,nsequ9nce of various amendments which had been
suggested, it was !proposed to reprint the bill ; and then he
woul'l name a distant day, probably the 15th or 20th of
April, for discussing it in committee.

MR. STANSFELD AND SIGNOR MAZZINI.
Lord ELCHO—I wish to put a question to the noble lord
at the bead of the Government, of which I have given him
private notice. It is a question which follows fromthe pain-
ful discussion in this house arising out of the unfortunate
friendship between a member of her Majesty's Government
an d Signor Maszini. Ido not wish to revive that discus-
seen, nor to express any opinion as to the course taken by
the hon. member for Halifax since the question was first
brought before the house by the hon. member for Finsbury.
I will not say whether or not it may have been better for the
hon. member at once to have expressed his regret for what
had occurred than to enter upon the defence of a man whom
I believe to be incapable of being defended. But, looking
dispassionately at the question, it appears to me that the
hon. gentleman has been guilty of a grave indiscretion—
(hear, hear)—an indiscretion amounting to a public scandal.
The indiscretion of the hon. gentleman is this, that he, a
member of her Majesty's Government, allowed until re-
cently his name to be used as a cover for the secret corre-
spondence of Signor Mazzini. I say that this is an indis-
cretion amounting to a great public scandal, affecting not
only the character of the Government and this house, but
also calculated to create a bad understanding and a bad
feeling between this country and a friendly foreign Power.
(Opposition cheers.) Such being so, it appears to me the
division of last night, so far from putting the house in a
better position, puts us in a worse one ; for the question,
which was not a party question, was made by that division
a party question. I voted in the minority, but not as a
partisan. I did so as the only means which I saw present-
ing itself for vindicating the honour of this house and the
honour of the country. (Hear, hear.) Now, any further
resolutions on the matter will unquestionably be made the
subject of party divisions, and a colour will be given to such
discussions on this side of the house. And, speaking of this
as a party question, I must say that many hon. members
have expressed to me their bitter regret at the position in
which they were placed last night. But, if these divisions
cannot place the house right, there is a course which, if it
had been taken at the outset, would have placed the house
right before the country, and the country right before fo-
reign Powers ; and that is, if the hon. member for Halifax,
when he saw the position to which his culpable indiscre-
tion had reduced himself, the Government, and the
country, had at once tendered his resignation to the
noble lord. (Opposition cheers.) Therefore the question
which I wish to ask thenoblelordat the head of the Govern-
ment is—and I wonder that it has not been asked already—
whether the hon. member for Halifax hes, at any time
since this question was first brought under the notice of
the house, formally tendered his resignation to the Go-
vernment, and whether his resignation has been refused.
Since I came down to the house this evening I have been
informed privately that he has done so. When I thought it
desirable to ask this question I was entirely ignorant of the
fact. I determined to ask the question, because last night
the feeling was unanimous amongst many gentleman that,
no matter what explanations the hon. member for Halifax
had to offer to the house, the natural course for the hon.
member would be to tender his resignation. Such was the
feeling not only of gentlemen opposite, but even the friends
of the hen. member expressed the same conviction. (Hear,
hear.) I think therefore that the hon. gentleman and the
house would be placed in a much more favourable position
if the hon. gentleman took that course. (Hear, hear.) With
reference to the resignation having been tendered to the Go.
vernment, but not accepted, that is a matter between the
house and the Government upon which I have no desire to
express an opinion.
Lord PALMERSTON—I cannot but regret that my hon.
friend in asking this question—which ho might have done
simply, without dilating on so many matters—has thought
it right to revive the discussion of last night—(cheers)--
and which I certainly hoped had been then concluded.
(Renewed cheering). I shall therefore abstain from follow-
ing the example of my noble friend and going into that ques-
tion again. I shall simply answer the question which ho has
put to me. The hon. lord asks whether my hon. friend did,
subsequently to the notice taken of this matter by the hon.
member for Finsbury (Mr. Cox) tender the resignation of
his office. My hon. friend immediately made a communi-
cation to me, through a common friend, to the effect that he

placed his office entirely at the disposal of the Government
—(cheers)—and that at the slightest intimation from me he

would tender his formal resignation. My answer was that

I.did not wish him to take that step, and if there is any re-
sponsibility attaching to that decision, I am perfectly ready
to accept of it. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. W. E. DUNCOMBE was exceedingly surprised at
the conclusion of the noble lord. In his opinion it was un-
worthy of the G3vernment that there should sit upon the
Treasury bench one who for 17 years had been the intimate
friend of Mazzini—a man who had not the courage to carry
out his diabolical schemes, but who, skulking under the
protection of this free country, plotted and conspired against
the crowned heads and the established Governments of
Europe.

Alderman ROSE thought it would be heard with some
surprise, not only in this country, but throughout the con-
tinent, that the noble lord at the head of the Government

had thought it right to endorse the conduct of the hon.
member for Halifax. That very afternoon he had seen a
letter from Paris which recounted that this discovery had
created a feeling throughout France which sooner or later
would cause the noble viscount deeply to regret that he had
not accepted the resignation of the hon. member for Halifax.
Mr. W. 1. FOSTER—I hope that a motion on this sub-
ject will be definitely brought before us, and that the House
of Commons will decide whether the circumstance of a
gentleman being the friend of Signor Mazzini renders him
an improper person to become a member of the Administra-
tion. Ido not agree with Signor Mazzini in his views.
Indeed, I disagree with almost all the views which he now
holds on foreign politics, and I think he has done some
harm to the cause of liberty and order. Still I think him
to be a most honest and sincere man, and a devoted patriot ;
and I believe that one great reason for the hostility now
shown to him, and, through him, to my hon. friend the
member for Halifax, is that ho has been the cause of the
resurrection of Italy—(oh, oh, and cheers)—and that in
times past he has kept up the flame of patriotism in that

country. lam not ashamed of acknowledging my sequoia.
tance with Signor Maszini, and I should be ashamed of my
hon. friend the member for Halifax if, when he became a
member of the Administration, he had said to Signor
Maraini, " I shall have nothing more to do with you; I
disown your friandahip." I admit that my hon. friend
has committed a great mistake, and that he ought to have
expressed his regret for what occurred. That he has
done. (Cries of " No, no,'• on the Opposition benches.)
But is it really the opinion of this house that what has oc-
curred should prevent my hon. friend from being any longer
a member of that Administration of which he is such an
ornament ? (Cheers.) The noble viscount at the head of
the Government, with that courage and generosity which
makes him so popular in this house and the country, has
declared that he would not be instrumental in giving effect
to the determination to drive my hon. friend from office.
Well, then, I am persuaded that the house will not come to
a different conclusion. (Hear, hear.)

Sir J. WALSH considered that there was a very great
distinction between being a friend of Mazzini for many
years, and affording Mazzini facilities for carrying on a clan-
destine correspondence, In his opinion it was most unfor-
tunate that a gentleman holding a conspicuous office in the
Administration should be so intimately connected with an
individual who had been engaged in conspiracies against all
the States of Europe. He had always entertained the
greatest admiration for the character of the noble lord at the
head of the Government, and he had always observed that
it was one of his noblest characteristics that he never de-
serted a friend, no matter in how great straits he might be,
and no matter how much in the noble lord's own intimate
mind he knew he was making personal and political sacri-
fices in doing so. (Cheers.) Upon the present occasion he
really thought the noble lord had Leen more actuated by
this chivalrous feeling than by a deliberate approval of the
conduct of the hon. member for Halifax. (Hear.) The noble
lord must well know—as every member of this house must
be convinced—that this unfortunate affair had been a very
great blow to his administration. 3 The answer of the noble
lord was not perfectly clear. He understood the noble lord
to say that the hon. member for Halifax had not formally
tendered his resignation, but that through a mutual friend—
through a third party—he had intimated kis readiness
to resign if the noble lord requested him to do so.
However, circumstances have now some degree
changed—the hon. member for Halifax no longer
stood in the same position. A maj)rity of
that house, certainly a very narrow one, had to a certain
extent protected the hon. member, and, as it were, reesta-
blished him. Well, he would not ask the noble lord fur-
ther questions on the matter, but he would ask the hon.
member for Halifax whether, considering the position in
which he had placed the house and the Government of
which he was a member—(oh, oh, and hear, hear)-3onsi-
r dering the position in which he had placed the country—
whether it did not occur to him, as a gentleman and a man
of honour, that his proper course would be frankly and dis-
tinctly to tender his absolute resignation to the noble loid.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALME RSTON—I desire to explain that my hon.
friend, through a common friend, threw himself and his
office entirely in my hands. (Cheers.)
Mr, HALIBURTON, referring to the discussion of last