The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-04 00:00:00

could not help expressing his surprise at the whole tone of
the debate.—( hear, hear.) It really seemed to him that
they would ignore - England's. being -a maritime nation
at all.—(Hear; hear.) It 'appeared to him as if
it- -was a - Parliament in Poland, meditating- in
what way an incursion from Russia was to .be resisted.
quite forgetting that we had a moat around us called the
British Cbannel.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord • the
Member for Tiverton had talked of .60,000 men coming to
Cherbourg and walking from their barracks on beard ship,
and landing in England without anything been known about
it; .bat the Noble Lord wholly omitted one iniportant con-
sideration, that there was no railway to Cherbourg, nor was
it likely there would be. Bat still, admitting these 60,000
men were at Cherbcurg, there was yit a want remaining
most necessary to facilitate their operations, and that was
ships to walk into.—(Hear,- hear.) He'would try to throw
some light upon this matter. First, then, with regard to
those terrible steam.bridges on which these men were to
cross the. Channel ; he would beg to read to the House a
statement of the comparative strength of the English and
French steam navy, that respecting the English 'fleet
being taken from the navy estimates of 1818 ; that of
France from their official navy list. In 1818 it appeared that
Great Britain had belonging to the royal navy 174 steam-
vessels of all classes, being an aggregete of 44,480-
horse power; , or, deducting packets, tenders, and yachts
there were 103 steam-vessels available for purpose.
of war; • namely, 4 line-of-battle ships, 23 frigates; 48
sloops, and 28 gun.vesseLs, of an aggregate of 32,327 -horse
power. By the Etat Generale de la Marine, which is
the official French navy list, of the year 1849, the steam
navy. of France consisted of 78 vessels of all classes,
of an aggregate of 17,740 horse-power. But, de-
ducting 20 small vessels ' called avisos, in like manner
as. is done. from the British steam navy, it will leave
for parposes of war a French steam navy of only 58 vessels,
namely, 17 frigates, 1 i corvettes or sloops, and 20 avisos of
the first class—answering to what we class as gun-vessels—
being in all 15,740 horse-power. So that at these periods,
say about three years since, the British war steam navy
was nearly double the number of vessels, and something
more than double the steam power, of that of France.
He would now make a comparison of the commercial steam
navies of the two countries. In the year 1849 an estimate
furnished from the Board of Trade gave the whole corn-.
mercial steam shipping of France at 3,000 horse-power, and
about 10,000 tons, and he believed no great addition had
been since made to it. He (Mr. Anderson) stated recently,
when he brought forward the question of rendering a
part of our commercial steam navy available for the
national de&nce in case of need, that the United Kingdom
bad about 1,300 steam-vessels, of all classes, in its commer-
cial navy, of an aggregate of 300,000 tons, and upwards of
100,000 horse-power. He stated that as an approximate
estimate. Since then, a return which he moved forlad
been printed. It showed that, on the Ist of January last, the
registered steam-vessels of the United 'Kingdom amounted
to 1,218 vessels ; and as he was aware from private,'but ac-
curate, sources of information, that there were at least 100
steam-vessels in advanced states of construction, or since
completed, at the various ports of the kingdom, he con-
sidered
his statement was fully borne out. He had made
an analysis of the return alluded to, that is of vessels of 200
tons and upwards, which would stand thus:—
Vessels of 200 to 500 tons ....•264 tonnage 86,416 tons.
~ 500 1,000 ~118 „ 78,461 „
„ 1,000 2,000 „ 34 „ 35,013 „
2,000 3,000 ~9 „ 23,155 „

425 vessels; 243,045 tons.
The vessels of four companies now employed in 'the Ocean
Mail Contract service, and which were under _their con-
tracts available for warlike operations,. were 70 vessels,
amounting, in the aggregate, to 93,421, tons, and 32,500
horse power, being more than double the power of the
whole French steam navy, in 1849, and• more efficient
both for speed and capability of, armament. After this
statement, he trusted the House would not be at all alarmed
at the idea of a bridge of French steamers being built
across the Channel. This country possessed such an over-
whelming steam power that not a single French soldier
would be able to leave port. There were steamers enough
to blockade all the French porta, and to prevent any vessels
from leaving them. He felt no hesitation in seconding the
amendment. .
The question having been put,
Mr.. STAFFORD said the Hon. Seconder of this motion
seemed to be animated by a somewhat different apirit from
that of the Hon. Gentleman who moved it. While the Hon.
Member for the West Riding expressed himself as dissatis-
fied with the amount of knowledge respecting the navy
which was then in possession of the House, the Hon. Member
for the Orkneys, having got a return seemed to have got all
he wished for, and, except in the last sentence of his speech,
made not the slightest allusion to the motion before the
House.—(Laughter.) The House must, he thought, have
observed with astonishment the amount of nautical lore in
reference not only to the commercial marine, but to ships of
war, displayed by the Hon. Member for the West Riding.
Where the Hon. Member had studied the subject it was not
for him to say;. but that a gentleman professing to be with-
out official information should be able to say that six ships
should be taken from one station, nine from another, one from
New Zealand, and that a certain number of ships should be
left in the Mediterranean, must certainly appear astonishing
to those who were not aware how much time the Hon. Gen-
tleman had given to the study. Now, was this the only as-
pect of the case ? After the Hon Member and his party had
voted 44,000 men without a single comment, he now brought
before the House a motion whose sole and specific object was
delay. He was very much disappointed to find, as the Hon.
Gentleman proceeded, that he had no explanation to offer in
reference to this change of tactics.—(Elear, hear.) Now he
put it to the Hon. Gentleman, what effect these returnscould
possibly have; Were they to suppose that the towns which
the Hon. Gentleman had named would be influenced •by
these returns; or that the returns would tend to diminish
the amount of support which this measure had received,
not merely from places which enlightenment had reached
—(Hear, and laughter)--but from places as important and
as much deserving of respect as those to which he had on
that occasion, as formerly, narrowed his views? - (Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Stafford) must here protest against the
system of explaining away the majorities of that House.
Those whom they (the Ministerial Members) represented
had as much right to have their opinions and the votes of
their representatives respected as the constituencies of the
district to which the Honourable Gentleman was in the
habit of referring.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber said that 6,500,0001. was spent in our naval defences.
It the Honourable Gentleman included the packet service
I he ought also to include other items which had equally
little to do with defences. Did he mean to say that
all the scientific 'branches, which were as useful to the com-
mercial marine as to the navy, and the freight of troops,
were referable to naval defences? Such representations were
a fair sample of the fairness and accuracy which charac-
terised the Hon. Gentleman's statement. As regarded the
precise number of vessels employed on any particular station,
the Hon. Gentleman might take 'an arbitrary figitre, but no
Board of Admiralty could consider itself tied Clown to the
maintenance of a particular number of vessels in any one
month.—(Hear, hear.) It would be guided by the commu-
nications which it received; and that House would, he be-
lieved, never require confidential communications on mat-
ters of the highest interest to be divulged. Take the case
of the West coast of Africa. If one vessel or two vessels
more were found to be necessary for the end in view, would
the Hon. Gentleman say that they should be withheld?
The Commander-in-Chief on different stations often stated
that they required more ships.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Bright); and in spite of that cheer, he must say that, in his
such persons, being on the spot, were far better
able opinion,nto, judge than the Honourable Gentleman. The. Hon.
Member for the West Riding quoted the precedent
of 1793. The delay of the war at that period arose
from the want of preparation; but let that precedent count
for what it might before, the Hon. Gentleman himself de-
stroyed its weight when he said in a subsequent part of his
speech that steam had placed us in a new position, and that
oar forefathers would not have thought of undertaking what
steam would enable us to accomplish with ease.— (Hear,
hear.) That was the real state of the case. When the Hon:
Gentleman spoke of the facilities with which our own troops
might be moved across this island, he appeared entirely to
forget that similar facilities existed in a neighbouring coun-
try, that not only soldiers but crews of vessels might be ra-
pidly conveyed from the south, to man the twenty-six vessels
H
in the northern ports. The on. Gentleman himself could
not deny that it was owing to the increase of our fleets that
peace bad been preserved, and that our preparations had
compelled our enemies—if we had any—to respect us.—
(Hear, hear.) The motion submitted to the House was
one which had never been granted by any Administration.
It had been repeatedly brought forward, but it bad always
been held that to grant such a return would be highly
detrimental to the service. The statement which he ( Mr.
Stafford) made in reply to the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for the Orkneys, showed that the Government
did . not wish to conceal any information which they
considered it right to give ; bat this motion could
not be granted unless the House resolved to constitute
itself the Board of Admiralty. In matters of this nature
it was necessary to repose confidence in the responsible ad-
visers of the Crown. Some of the particulars included in
the motion had already been laid on the table"; but the at-
tempt to obtain a return of " the names, armaments, number
of crews' and officers of all her Majesty's ships employed
on active service," &c., must be met by the Government
with a' positive denial. Its immediate effect would be to
give more information' than the Government ever yet
granted ; and as to the animus with which the Honourable
Gentleman brought it forward, the motion went to overturn
and reverse the whole system of naval management —a step
which he trusted the House was not prepared to take.
—(.Hear, hear.) There might be defects in the Admiralty,
and he hoped they would be rectified; but as it had
been managed, and he hoped would continue to be ma-
naged, 'it had protected the commerce of the country and
preserved our shores inviolate; and he asked the House not
to declare to the Commanders-in-Chief abroad that this
country had no confidence in them, or to show that it was
determined to take the executive into its own hands, by
demanding information which the responsible servants of her
Majesty 'did not consider it consistent with their duty to
grant.—(Cheers.)
Mr. CORRY concurred with the Hon. Member for the
West Riding that, in discussing the question of our national
defencea, it was not possible to separate the military from
the natal services; but he also concurred with the Hon.
Gentlemen the Secretary for the Admiralty, that the infor-
mation asked for by the Hon. Member for the West Riding
ought not to be given by the Admiralty. If that informa-
tion were given, it would throw but very little light on the
subject, and the country would not be at all the wiser
through it, unless it were accompanied by returns of the
,
naval force thatemight be opposed to it. Nor did he thinkah
oa
the consideration ought to be proffered for the product Int
)8.
of any information on the subject of our naval Nye_
tion of the names, the armaments, and the e
dttiteen the
cause the official Navy List contained sufficient uletos:remao-f
the ships in commission.—(Hear, hear.) He hasavy Lists,
trouble to compare the French and the English pos-
and he thought he should be able to put theca
session of sufficient information on the subj.eehip
to the
he was necessarily familiar from his apprentichat
the
naval
the
ship
t both countries
er than those
forces of this country were incomparably g
Admiralty. The House need not be informedett
hreour navY Was
of France—(Elear, hear)—but althoug
gave great advan-
greater, there were circumstances which
staves were the
rages to the French navy. Those circu 'Vieth which
of the two countries and the system aa
aJo their reserved
which they obtained men for the where
I were considerable
geographical position of France, the dis.tri bt teiittioinnoFf
rtahneeZebtys
ships of war, while in England
(Hear.) With respect to the first of w
difficulties in finding men to man
of geographical position,
it was 1." the Mediterranean, but
ro
immediate the Eng
retained their largest squadrons the se ail faonrt asegresv i,eteh—a t
nhorme
I the event of the French
lish it was a foreign station. ,
that sea was for the French navy::
Iny t and Thu on,
squadron in the Mediterranean bein
ispatch g
liaris to Toulon would
service, a telegraphic
onrodterrescifruoirme so many the French Government
-littniwould take days to send
qe:iwirehdilefof
there was no reason
sent a telegraphic message to a
not
had to Brest in a fort-
why the French fleet should n.
F on had a most important com-
night. It was true the, e retne
I, Mediterranean, but the steam
munication to maintain lame
Meth
that
was four times as
navy of France is the
that a considerable portion
great as that of England, so t Toulon •
ther resPecmight contrz-
might be`spared. In SW