The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-10 00:00:00

HOUSE OF coTdmo,:vs, June 9.
(Continued from qr afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
EPISCOPAL AND CAPITULAR REVENUES,
BILL.
The Marquis of BLAVDPORD moved the second
neadine.'' of this Bill. . •
• lelr.VtilitLPOLE considered the state of the session
would net admit of their going into a discussion upon a
measure. of this extensive nature, even if there
wan nothing in the provisions calling for particular ob-
jection. Since the Bill had been introduced he had con-
sulted the highest authorities in the Church, as well as
others who took an interest in the subject, and he was
now prepared to say the Government would undertake
the consideration of the state of the cathedral bodies and
institutions, so as to place them generally on a more
satisfactory footing, and to make them more practically
useful than they were at' present in regard to spiritual
instruction and education. Under those circumstances
he hoped the Noble Lord would consent to the order for
the second reading, being now read and discharged.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD said he had ex-
pected that the Government would have made some de-
cleralion with regard to the Bill.
Mr. WALPOLE did not think the House ought to
pledge the Government to any details,—(gear.)
Mr. SLANEY heard the statement of the Secretary
for the Home Department with great satisfaction, and
he trusted the Noble Lord would accept his cffer and
withdraw the Bill.
After a few words from Sir B. BRYDGES,
Mr. WALPOLE pointed out the four heads of the
BID, and said it was the wish of the Government to re-
lieve an much as possible those who held high offices
in the Church from all duties of a worldly and tem-
poral naturce—(Hear hear.) The spirit in which
the Government proposed to proceed was to con-
sider whether these great cathedral establishments
might nog be more fully restored to the high and holy
purposes for which they were originally founded and
. endowed, viz., as temples for the daily worship of the
• Almighty Being, as seats of learning, as councils to assist
. the bishops in several matters relating to their dioceses, and
as connecting, links between the higher and lower orders of
the clergy, so as to brifig the whole body of the Church
in perfect harmony.—(Cheers.) That being the general
view of the Grovernment, he thought it would be prema-
ture for the House tee prejudge the question by binding
them to any particular details.—(llear.)
Lord EBRINGTON was glad to hear that the Go-
vernment intended to take the whole subject of the Bill
into their serious consideration.
sir IL H. INGLIS thanked the Secretary for the Home
Department for the general view he had given of the in-
tentions of the Government, and concurred in the de-
sirableness of not continuing the present discussion now
that these was a general opinion in the House that the
an ought not to be pressed.
Lord R. GROSVENOR also expressed his gratifies-
time at hearing the declaration of the Right Hon. Gen-
Mr.siem.
J. WILLIAMS hoped, in any measure which
might be Proposed, provision would be made to prevent
any clergyman being appointed to a bishopric in Wales
who was not acquainted with the Welsh language.
Sir BENJAMIN HALL considered that unless the
management of ecclesiastical property was placed in
a Commission, and the salaries of Bishops and other
functionaries in the Church, the existing abuses
would still be continued. Ho hoped the Govern-
ment wcultl see there was a disposition and de-
termination on the part of the laity to insist not
only on reforms in the manner in which the
ecolosiastisal body performed their duties, but that
a full and searching inquiry should be instituted
into the temporalities of the Church, not with the
view of depriving her real and efficient servants
of good and sufficient incomes, bat with the intention of
effecting necessary reforms. If the Government did not
yield to the voice out of doors, and propose a measure
well calculated to remedy abuses in the Church, matters
would come to a much more serious pass than was now
contemplated.
Mr. HORSMAN said, though the Noble Lord would
act judiciously in not pressing the Bill, he thought they
should have an opportunity to discuss the subject, in
order that the Government might know what was the
general opinion of the House. It was impossible to
delay the question, for the ecclesiastical systeta was ap-
lerotteeing a crisis, and if the Government shrunk from
the danger and tried to remedy the abuses the time for re-
form would soon pass away. Public opinion was already
matured and explicit as to the condition of the cathedral
establishments, as to the management of eeiseopel and
capituiar estates, and as to the present condition of the
episcopate. A fixed income for bishops was infinitely
preferable to the existing system of payment; and as
the geeen had given up her estates in return for an
annual vote, and as judges and other public function-
aries were paid by a fixed salary, he saw no reason why
the episcopal body should object to receive their
incomes from the Crown or a Royal Commission.
Ecclesiastical law was the exception to the reform which
had taken place in all other branches of the law, and that
because it had been lel in the hands of the Bishops
themeelves, who bad proved that they were ill adapted
for that duty. The principle of reform of existing
abuses most meet with the general concurrence of the
Howie, and the abuses existing in the ecclesiastical law
meet be reformed in spite of the dignitaries of the Church.
Mr. OSWALD was of opinion that no reform
real* beneficial to the Church of England
could fake place without the concurrence of that
Church itself. By the Constitution of this country, the
Church of England had had a corporate body cf its own
members to regulate its own affeire, and it was the duty
at the Ilonse to provide for the efficiency of that body,
but, at the same time, no good end would be attained by
Pnrliementary Committees attempting to regulate the
eeiirs of the Church. Is should ha remembered that the
Ohurch of Eaeland was only a part of the greet Angli-
can Church, Tad that in all other parts of the world
where that system obtained, representative assemblies,
duly consaitated, existed, and this materially prevented
what in England was frequently called priestcraft. It
was his strong °pillion thst this House had no right to
interfere with the internal affaire of the Church of Eng-
Is,ni..

Af.r. S. HERBER,T thought the Noble Lord would do
well to frankly accept tho proposal of the Government.
The conciliatory tone and moderation of view of the
Secretary for the Rome Department convinced him
there was no man in whose hands they might better
trust this important question for adjudication.—(Gear.)
But the subject was obviously beset by very great diffi-
culties, and if the Government attempted to deal with
.it they must exeroise very great forbearance. The
questions to be considered were, the extension of the
epiecopate, the diminution in the number of chapters,
the abolition of the office of dean, and likewise the
restitution to the chapters of the especial duties which they
were originally intended to perform. He was not one
who thought the proposed increase of the episcopate
• was ton large, but there was a strong objection in that
House to augment the number of Bishops in the House
ore Lords, and most of the modes suggested for carrying
-out the increase were open to objections. In regard to
the payment of Bishops, he thought the system, as it
how steed, was most objectionable, for in fact they were
merely land agues to the Ecclesiastical Commission over
send
.estates, from which they derived no benefit be-
' el the fixed income of their sees, and the quantity of
8:4111 busineile imposed upon them could hue no other
t than to isolate them from the other ranks of the
clergy,tute As to the request that no one should be insti-
to % benefice in Wales except he under-
stood the Walsh he thought that more
likeky to interferelanguage,
ifv
ast
ei with the vested rights of patrons.
- But still
le.wyer-like spirit
itinterests were. considered in a too
.e cclessical reform. would considerably interfere with
The Marquis o€,
ELANDFORD noticed briefly some I
of the paint) urged in
the course of the discussion, and re peated the explanation, as to the object and scope of the Bill, which he had g" .3 .
wen on a former occasion, ob-
serving that,
in order to maintain the unity of the
Churelle, he had thought it Ilene . .
ssary to preserve its epis-
copal cheroot . , er•
He faded by intimating that, in
t h
consequence of waa ad. fallen from the Government,
he would withdraw the Bit
*The order of the day was then reed and discharged.
lAMAGEMENT CLAUSES OPT
COMMITTEE
ON EDUCATION'
Sr R. H. INGLIS asked the Secretary of State for
Council o Educs m
tion whether te -
the Home Departen ~)
was -
reparehd t'o
a oruniatee of Privy
n p e
any relax-
ation of the management disuses?
d!hie
Mr. WALPOLE said the Committee had prepared a
taino.te, adulating the relaxation of the managing clauses
is elle resPpect, which was a very important cue; mad
orpy of it would be laid on the table as soon as it was
finally settled.
Sir R. H. INGLIS—Then,
is it not settled?
Mr. WALPOLE—The wording is not settled.
COUNTY ELECTIONS POLLS BILL.
On the motion of Lord R. GROSVENOR for going
into Committee on this Bill,
Mr- PALE moved that the House go into Committee
on this Bill this day six months. He denied that the
• excuse, that bribery was practised on the second day of
county elections, was a true one. There were in England
and Wales 79 comity elections, and as at a general elec-
tion they would all take place
within a few days of each
other the effect of this Bill would be to disfranchise a
great nunaber of county electors, which it was
whispered
that Bill web intended to do by a side-wind. The Noble
Lord had given notice that it wee his intention to enlarge
the time from four to six o'clock; but ho would self.,
• wouid ih, not often happen that the poll would be
taken for a couple of hours in the dark, and he need not
Print out the abuses to which this practice would lead.
Tho Right Ron. Baronet the Member for Ripon had, on
a former occasion, voted against a measure of this sort,
as indeed had the Hon. Member for the West Riding
of Yorkshire (Mr. Denison), whose name be was now
sierprised to see at the back of the Bill. He saw, too,
twat the name of the Hon. Member for Manoheater
'(Mr. Bright) was at the back of this Bill ; and he, too,
when Member for Durham, had spoken against
the
oppoeed thia Bill in a former sersion. If
sue, Noble Lord would consent to bring up
zettwauortato enable non-resident voters to vote hy proxy, 7.ton have no objection to support the 13il!. Aa it 1. however, he should move that the HOLISO go into
mitten Core. OZI the' Rill this deer, six Montle.
, Ir. IIE',„„„
Cu en ty which hec reptesented
proceeding to say that as the
(Inverness-shire) was pe-
eteliarly cireamstaeced, he hoped if he made out a arse
Le should obtain the
Billet
of the Noble Lord to exempt
that, county from the
,when, being informed that the
lii!.l did Lot extend to Scotland, h gre way to
Mr. ALCOCIC, who said thaQt since the increased
view's of locomotion he thought there"would be no diffi-
'catty whatever in taking the polls in comities in. one day.
Mr. WALPOLE said he thought th-
is question most
materially affecterithe county Members, and it would be
Letter to leave it to them, rather than to le up as
Government question. He should not, th take it
erefor - be
f:liBP"ed to oPPose going into Committee, but be em, /Ist

After a few words from Mr. P. MILES and Mr.
OSWALD, who supported the Bill, the House divided,
when there appeared—
For going into Committee ... 166
Against it ... . . . . ... 82
Majority ... .. ... —B4
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
On clause 1,
Mr. HENLEY asked when the Noble Lord intended
that this Bill should come into operation?
Lord R. GROSVENOR said he intended it should
come into operation at once. He was sorry that it had
been made a party question, because he had not at all
brought it forward in that light, but merely to remedy
an acknowledged abuse in the present system of
taking county polls. Ho thought he was perfectly jus-
tified in bringing in the present Bill by the scenes
of drunkenness which he had witnessed on the second
day of poll. lie proposed to extend the time of polling
until six o'clock in the evening from four, and to provide
additional polling booths, so as to give one booth for
every 300 electors, instead of 450, by which means ho
thought ho should be able to get over the objections
which had been raised as to bringing up the electors
in too largo numbers to be polled within one day.
Ho was anxious to pass the Bill new, because several
contested elections were about to take place, where an
unfortunate effervescence and excitement might bo ex,.
petted, and he believed if the Bill passed the evil might
be got rid of.
Mr. B. DENISON supported the clause, the operation
of which he dig not believe would deprive city electors
of the right of voting as they now did. Experience
peoved that an election for a county was virtually
decided on the first day. In fact, the first
day's election had never been overturned on
the fallowing day except is one instance, and
he uLkad whether it was judicious to keep the popu-
lation in suspense for twente-four hours, and to increase
' the expenses;only for a small additional number of votes?
The same objections tehich gore urged against the Bill
were made to the proposal for limiting the election for
boroughs from two days to one, and there was scarcely
, any man who would not admit that alteration had been
preductive of great benefit.—(Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY thought in the case of a riot voters
might be prevented giving their votes, and if the poll
was confined to one day, they would not have the oppor-
tunity, which they possessed now, of availing them-
selves of the second day, when steps might be taken to
keep the booths free from disturbance. 1
EX TRAORDINARY CONDUCT OF MR. F.
O'CONNOR.
A brief discussion ensued on the clause, but it was
suddenly interrupted by loud cries of " Oder."
Mr. B. DENESON hero rose in an agitated state, and
said he felt compelled to appeal to the chair in conse-
quence of the conduct of an Honourable Member, who
had just struck him a violent blow in the face with his
hand.
(Mr. :Connor was sitting next to Mr. B. Deni-
son on the front bench on the Opposition side.) He
would take that opportunity of stating that ho
had experienced considerable inconvenience from
the conduct of that Gentleman, and he had
seen other Members experience similar inconvenience.
They had hitherto treated him with the greatest good
will and forbearance, but there was a point beyond which
it would be unworthy of them to submit to such con-
duct.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He regretted
beyond anything that he happened to be the unfortunate
person who felt called on to make these observations, but
_
believed he spoke the sentiments of the House.
Mr. BERNAL, the Chairman, said, what he had
power to do was to report to the House when sitting the
conduct of any Member. Therefore, if the Committee
wished him to report the conduct of the Honourable
Gentleman who had been referred to it must instruct
him accordingly.
Mr. WALPOLE said, after what took place last night,
he thought the House had reason to expect that the inter-
ruptions which had occurred lately in the House should
not be repeated again. The Hon. Member had acted in a
disrespectful manner, not only to the Hon. Member
(Mr. Denison) but also to the Chairman, and had inter-
rupted the proceedings of the House, and he thought it
right that an apology should be made by him—(Cries
of " Oh" and ",No")—then either that an apology
should be made or that they should instantly re-
port what had taken place, for the purpose of main-
taining order.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he accidentally observed
the conduct of the Hon. Member, and he had no hesita-
tion in expressing it as his opinion, however painful it
might be to do so, that it was indispensably necessary,
not only for the dignity of their proceedings, but really
for the conduct of public business, that this matter ought
not to be allowed to rest. Therefore he hoped the House
would have no hesitation in complying with the proposal
of his Right Hon. Friend that they should suspend the
Proceedings of the Committee in order to report to the
highest authority in the House the occurrence which
had,i just taken place.—(Hear.) He would move that the
im-
mediately Chairman report progress and ask leave to sit again.
The motion was put and carried, and the Speaker
appeared in his place.
• Ntr- BERNAL, addressing the Speaker, said—l am
should ta"
illiattLuecuteod to report that the conduct of an Hon. Member
use has been such that it is necessary the House
kel,ree of it through you.
almost breathl!!
Captain AsitsOt
ay e
,h earned rushedsaid h
eu thephtaod al 3 tablein
reportan
that the seine
alleries, hit hui en.
Member had just now, in one of the
K
a i a most outrage
himself inous manner, and put
attitude. He told him that if he
over spoke to hire fighting
teak he would knock him down.
Mr. J. BELL obseravediatohnat it
moved that the Hon. Member bo
appear in his p
Mr. WALPoL
forthwith called to
in g an apology fromplace.
seLf no use demand-
, .wash suffering from a misfortune. It
entleman who, he was
would tPI =ten better to „acs •
perfectly satisfied
two medical gentlemen*--( Ob,
conduct o oh," and laugh.)
he had no hesitation in csming to the conchi-
Th 0 A. Tf 'ti
the Hon.
70EnY. i AL s- " • lid he witnessed the
hest night, and from what
followed
sion that he was sufficiently master of his own ("canna.—
(Hear ) Ono of the IGe Em 1b R a hull. under the care o f
anu an Honourable
grossest indignities he had ever
entertained the
witnessed had been committed
Member for
If any
night
t ho was not a free
highest respect, and it
E, behoved the House
peci:shorn they
in,.
to interfere for floc purpose o°'
aPting all end to such
conduct,--(Hest'.)
of lastayndlgto mustcettainhlayve
agent, the eventconvinced
thorn of the contrarY; should not
consent to his being requ:red to attend in hie place—
the consequence of which all were nevaree—being
of understand'
convinced the was capable
the 'louse
What
gentlemanly at id forbearing conduct in_ the 'louse
Was;
for when he 1 vas ealled upon yesterday ho instantly
apologised tot he House. It would not
to
be consistent
with the dignity of the llouso to allow him oretire with-
out adopting: 'Pleasures to suppress a repetition of such
proceedings,, and to enable the business of the RUBe to
he proceeds with in a proper mstiner.