The Sun.
London, England, 1864-06-14 00:00:00

The motion having been seconded by Mr. BAILLIB,
Mr H. GRENFELL argued, in opposition to the pro-
posal, that no wrong had been done to Azeem Jah, who,
during his whole life, had enjoyed the protection of the
English Government. If the committee were granted, it
would be tantamount to an admission that he had suffered
wrong, and that would be contrary to the opinion of some
of the most eminent statesmen. it would also necessitate
an instraction to the committee to provide a remedy, and
the remedy must be either to confer upon him the mock
throne of the Carnatic or give him a large pecuniary com-
pensation. Before doing that, it was necessary to show that
wrong had been committed, and next that it could be re-
medied without inflicting wrong upon others. And he
held that both these elements were wanting in the case.
Sir J. FERGUSSON said that if the committee were
appointed their inquiries would be useless, because no fresh
evidence could be collected on the subject. But they might
do this. They might find a bill of indictment against faithful
and able servants of the Crown who, after passing their
lives in honour, had gone to the grave amidst the regrets
and with the respect of all. He called upon the house not
to re-open a question which had been settled upwards of
GO years ago.
Mr B AILLIE observed that there were two important
admissions in the treaty of 1801; first, that the Nawab was
the legitimate Sovereign of the Carnatic, and nest that the
East India Company had acquired the right to govern the
Carnatic, not by conquest, but by treaty. If then the
treaty had ceased to exist, by what title, he should like to
know,:thd we now possess the territory ?
Mr LOWE was not prepared to say that the transaction
was one in which we could take much pleasure, but he
argued that the treaty was entered into without any inten-
tion of conveying rights to descendants. The Anglo-Indian
Government retained to themselves the right of considering
whether they would allow a new nomination to the nawab-
ship of the Carnatic, and all that could be said was that, in
two cases, they elected to do so, and in the third that they
would not.
On a division the motion was negatived by 62 to 45.
Mr HENNESSY expressed his surprise that the house
had been permitted to go to a division without the Secretary
for India offering any explanation on the subject.
Mr MALINS also rebuked Sir C. Wood for the indiffe-
rence with which he had treated the matter, and the exulta-
tion with which he had hailed the result of the division.
Lord PALMERSTON said that if his right hon. friend
had manifested any exultation it was owing to the tact that
the hon. and learned gentleman, Sir Fitzroy Kelly, who
was known to be full of the subject and prepared to support
the motion for inquiry, was so entirely dumbfounded by the
arguments opposed to it, that he was unable to reply.
Sir F. KELLY owned that he had been outwitted by
the tactique of the Government; but ho now gave notice
that, in justice to the honour of the house, he should take
the earliest opportunity of reviving the discussion.
Mr W. B, FORSTER stated that he had given his vote
with the minority on the single ground that the Secretary
for India had not risen to defend the conduct of his own
administration.
Sir C. WOOD contended that, as his department had been
assailed, he had a right, as the defendant, to hear all the
case against it before he delivered a reply. Moreover, he
considered the speeahes of Sir J. Fergusson and Mr Lowe
were ample defence.
Lord STANLEY regretted that Lord Palmerston should
have regarded the motion in the light of a party attack,
seeing that in the division one half the support received by
the Government had come from the Opposition side of the
house,

The houro then went into committee of supply, and
agreed to several votes on account of tee civil service.
NEW ZEALAND (GUARANTEE OF LOAN).
The hawse went into committee on this bill.
Mr. CARDWELL said that papers relating to the pro-
areas of the war in New Zealand had recently been laid on
.he table of that house. He had seen in the newspapers ac-
counts which, he was happy tc say, did not correspond with
those which had reached him officially. He had received
by this mail accounts of two conflicts which had taken place
between our troops and the native chiefs—one in the neigh-
bourhood of Plymouth, and the other with Gen. Cameron's
force. The first was an operation conducted by Gen. "Ward
with great success, and was carried out fortunately with
the smallest loss, no one being killed, and only four wounded.
The Governor and General Cameron spoke of that action in
the highest terms. A more important engagement had taken
place with General Cameron's force, with reference to which
he was glad to say the reports of adisastrons failure through
a subordinate were not correct. All he could say was that
according to the intelligence which had reached him, the
victory over the natives by General Cameron was complete
and decisive, and the extensive district was now in posses-
sion of the Government. He would now turn to what was
the immediate object. It would be in the recollection of the
house that a proposal had been made last session for a loan
of half a million, but, for reasons stated in the correspond-
ence now before him, that proposal had not succeeded ; and
it now devolved upon him to renew the proposal in a diffe-
rent form. The correspondence showed that the colony of
New Zealand desired to raise a loan of £3,000,000. The
Finance Minister of the colony had discussed the matter
with him ; but he (Mr. Cardwell) gave him to understand
at the outset that he could not undertake on the part of the
Imperial Government to submit any proposal to Parliament
for so large a sum as £3,000,000. The question, then,
was, whether they should limit themselves to the £500,000
of last session. The guarantee of £500,000 had nothing to
do with the expense of the war. The Imperial Government
in the course of the present year had advanced £300,000,
and therefore if the guarantee were confined to £500,000
the whole would be absorbed in the amount due to the
Treasury. It was now proposed to guarantee a loan of
£1,000,000, £500,000 to be paid to the Imperial Treasury,
and £500,000 to be at the disposal of the Colonial Govern-
ment; and he thought the correspondence would show that
there was ample security for this loan. It might be asked
why they came forward to guarantee at all But the reasons
were the great expense caused by having so many of the
Population of New Zealand under arms, the necessity for
making roads, and surveys, and carrying out many other
improvements. If the proposal were agreed to, the whole
of the amount due w the Imperial Treasury would be re-
paid, and at the close of the present year New Zealand
wculd contribute, like the rest of the Australian territory,
her proportion of the military expenditure, namely, at the
rate of £4O for every infantry soldier and £.55 for every
artilleryman. The only exception was the difference of one
regiment in favour of New Zealand, for which a sum of
£20,000 would be allowed as heretofore,
Ther y
resoTloutui
he would offer no opposition pro-
vided'would give sufficient time
A7T havingsi
Ri dbeen read,
and he would
f(x th
e the
readingri ht
ohfo
terh.o ge conr
rt ap
oann
deuce.
Mer for C A
of affording sufficient
tim
perusalLLo
fwt
base desirouscorrespondence,
not take the second reading before that day Week.
theß D S V E
Sir H.WILLOUGHBY thought the Proper time for dis-
cussion was the present occasion, when in committee. The
correspondence was only delivered that morning, lie
had
only looked cursorily through it, but he had Been enough
to warn the committee of the anxious state of New Zealand.
The account appeared to him to be more complicated than
was indicated in the statement of the right hen. gentleman.
He owned he could not understand where the surplus fund
was to be found that was to secure the payment of the debt
and to protect the imperial treasury from the risks of gua,
ranteeing the loan.

Mr. WHALLEY had seen a statement put forward
in a New Zealand newspaper to the effect that, wher-
ever Sir George Grey went, he found evidence that the
recent rebellion had originated in the conduct of
the Roman Catholic priesthood—(oh, oh, and laughter)
and he wished to know whether the right hon. gentleman
had receivel any communication from Sir George Grey
confirmatory of that statement. (Laughter.)
Mr ADDERLEY said no doubt the circumstances of the
case were peculiar, and that there were very strong reasons
why the house should entertain the proposal of a guarantee.
The spirit which New Z.Aland had shown in meeting its
difficulties was an example to all our other colorties—(hear)
—and, in the next place, the condition which would be at-
tached to the guarantee. that for the future the colony were
willing to pay for all the Imperial troops quartered there
with the exception of one regiment, recommended the reso-
lution to the. adoptioa of the house. Not desiring to be
understood as expressing any deliberate opinion upon the
whole proposition until he had been able to read the cor-
respondence, he nevertheless inclined to the opinion that
the proposal of the Government ought to be supported.
Mr HASSARD suggested the desirability of their being
put n postiesaoh of wore detailed keen:twin, with respect

Frederick Bruce, must decline to allow officers of her Majes-
ty's army to take any part in military operations further than
may be necessary for the protection of British inter,sts,
and his first step, consequently, would be to desire that Major
Garden and others serving with him at Shanghae should
not pass the boundary described as the 3) wife radius.
Mr LAYARD said that all the infornar on asked for
would be found in the blue books, which could be referred
to by any hon. member.
THE CONFERENCE.
In reply to Mr B. OSBORNE and Mr LNG LAKE,
Lord PALMERSTON declined to verify officially any
statement that appeared in the ilioniing lost or any other
newspaper relative to the Danish Conference. (Laughter.)
He was not in a position to confirm any newspaper
statement as to what the Danish Plenipotentiaries said or
did. (Laughter) The statement he had made to the house
was sufficiently explanatory, and there were no new cir-
cumstances that called for any supplemental statement.
An Hon. MEMBER—f he noble lord has not, to my mind,
made a satisfactory statement in regard to this matter.
Lord PALMERSTON said he did not feel himself
called upon to deal with every variety of mind which might
arise even in that house, and all that he could do was to
make a clear and so far as ho could a logical statement.
(Hear, and laughter.)
THE NAWAB OF THE CARNATIC.
On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Mr SMOLLETT moved that a select committee be ap-
pointed to inquire into the claims of his Highness Azeem
Jah to the title and dignity of the Nawab of the
Carnatic ; and further to report upon the circumstances
under which the treaty entered into between his high-
ness's father, Azeem ul Dowlah and the East India Com-
pany, dated the 31st day;of July, 1801, had been declared
void.