The Sun.
London, England, 1864-04-09 00:00:00

THE GERMAN CONFERENCE.

scriptions upon the tombstones, that was a matter with re-
spect to which the Government had no right to interfere. If
real names were not inscribed upon the gravel, no doubt
that might be productive of inconvenience in cises where it
might be necessary to establish a title to pcol erty. But
they all knew the inconvenience was mach greater when

no names at all were inscribednpon them, and there was no

law in this country compelling the erectio n of tombstones.

The hon. member had next referred to the undue influence

which had been brought to bear upon the gentleman al-

luded to by Mr. Smec; to induce him to part with hie pro-

perty. Well, it might or might not be true that such in-

finance had been used. If it had been, there were numerous

precedents on record to prove that the law was powerful to

deal with oases of the kind ; and indeed he had been informed

.. ,
thrAt proceedings were now being taken with respect to this
xtry will, founded upon the allegations in the petition of

Mr. Smee.
Mr, NEWDEGAT E said it had been found that the law
was ineffective to meet the case.

Sir G. GREY said that must be because there was no
undue influence exercised. (Hear, hear.) He must say

that no ground whatever had been made out for the ap-
pointment of the committee—that no good could come from
it ; on the contrary, that it might give rise to discussions
and disputes which had much better be avoided. (Hear,

hear.)
Lord C, HOWARD deprecated religious discussions in
that house, but if they were brought forward they ought to
be accompanied with the same gentlemanly feeling that
prevailed when other questions were brought under the
notice of the house, and which generally pervaded all nuts
of life to some extent. Even before prize fighter, com-
menced their pugilistic encounter they shook :lands with

some degree of formality. On this occasio:i a most violent
attack had been made upon the family with which he was
closely related. Yet no intimation. was given to him that it

was about to be made. Assetcions had been made which

were opposed to the truth, And calumnies had been thrown
out not only against the gentlemen who lived at the Ora-
tory, but by implice:tion on himself, he being a member of

the family to which he had alluded. The attack had come
from theother aide of the house, and what ha had to say was
in defence; and he therefore hoped the house would permit

him, with as much discretion as he could use, to reply,
though he had no wish to express himself too strongly on the

slanders that had been uttered on the other side of the house.
The hon. member for North Warwickshire identified him-

self with this petition, and one of the statements was that
the family of the Duke of Norfolk was in close communica-
tion with the members of the order, and assisted them in
their various schemes, and it went on to say that young
men of position and wealth were concealed from their friends
by members of the order. That was in fact saying that the
family with which he had the honour of being connected
was engaged with others in conspiracy, in fraud, and in

concealment, He should not further mention this, because
he believed he had many friends—valued friends—amongst
all religious persuasions, and he was sure there was not one
person in the country, unless it was the hon. gentleman,
who would give him or his friends or any one of them

credit for bearing a part in such disgraceful and unheard-
of proceedings. Then there came another clause in this
petition, in which it was stated that the heir of the Duke of
Norfolk, and, he thought it said, his brother, had been seen
assisting in ecclesiastical garments in the public perform-
ance of service there, The hon. member for North War-
wickshire said he belonged to the University of Oxford, he
(Lord E. Howard) belonged to the University of Cam-
bridge, and he was in the habit when he went to the chapel
of the university of being clad in a surplice, and he should
suppose the hon. gentleman had also worn a surplice on
those occasions, and was there anything disgraceful in
that ? And if he wore a surplice why might not other
people in a public church, like the Oratory at Brompton,
do so. He had seen his nephew assisting there, and he
had got a little boy grown up to that age when one's
feelings are bound up so much, to an age when he pro-
mised to be the hope of one's family or the prop to
one's declining years. Persons were good enough to
commend his appearance and disposition, and all that,
and he was proud to say that that little boy also assisted
his nephew in the garments on which the hon. gentleman
had made such observations. That little boy died within a
very short period of his assisting at this public service of
their Church,land he could tell the hon. gentleman, so far
from being ashamed of it, it was a great comfort to him that
he had been allowed at the solicitation of his mother, to
pay that small mead of respect to his Maker. He had
passed to a purer and a better world, where there was cer-
tainly no malignity like that to which his family had been
that night exposed ; and he did not believe that little boy
would have a less bright place there because he paid his
mead of respect to his Maker on earth. Nor did he believe
his mother, who was also gone, had a less bright place thee e
because it was at her request that he paid that mead of
praise. He had had to sustain the grief of these two losses
within the short space of 20 months, coupled with the loss
of the father of the young duke, a most excellent man and
the best of brothers. (Hear, hear.) That grief was to be
ripped open by the hon. gentleman, who had as it were
ripped off the lids of the coffins of those who were gone. to
be held up to public execration, because a person such as
Mr. Smee chose to allege impossibilities and untruths in a
petition for which the hon. gentleman became spensor in
that house. Having said this much as personal to himself,
although he was not undertaking the defence of the Oratory,
it was fair that ho should advert to something that had
dropped from the hon. member for North Warwickshire,
He meationed the case of a Mr. Harrison. Now. Mr. Har-
rison was brought to the Oratory by an elder brother, who
was an cfflcer in the army. He became, no doubt, a
convrt under such circumstances, and he returned to the
Westminster School the same night, and shortly after-
wards to his father. Ha was surprised that a gentleman
in the position of a county member should endeavour to
influence a case, by animadversion in that house, which
was before the ordinary tribunals of the country. Whatever
the will was he knew nothing of it; it was in its proper
place, and he had no doubt it would be properly disposed of
by the authorities in whose presence it now stood. As to
the register of deaths, a name on a tombstone was of no
value; but the proof of death was to be found in the register
kept by a proper officer. He now passed from the petition,
to which he need not further allude; but he invited the
attention of his hon. friend whilst he replied to the flagiti-
ous attack which had been made upon him. The hon.
gentleman (Mr. Newdegate) had some scruples of conscience
as to the letter addressed to the Duchess of Norfolk from
Finsbury-circus ; but his scruples only extended to the ad-
dress and not to the contents of the letter, he saying it
should have been addressed to two gentlemen whom he
called guardians, bat who held no such position.
Mr. NE WDEGATE—I said trustees.
Lord C, HOWARD—As to Mr. Hutchinson's money,
the amount of which had been exaggerated, ho was a just
and a charitable man, and had a right to dispose of it as he
liked. No one would blame him for devoting his property
to charitable or religious purposes, to which people fre-
quently gave their money and their lives. Well, he must
deny that the duchess had had the smallest share in this
calumny, which had been so improperly brought before the
house, and which he must say in some measure the hon.
gentleman identified himself. He must have known of
these letters being written.
Mr. NEWDEGATE—I knew not one single thing
about it.
Lord C. HOWARD continued. He hoped this would
be a caution to the hon. gentleman in future as to what
company he trusted himself in, and what use might be
sought to be made by others of one who was a member of
one of the largest interests in England. Really, a gentle-
man of his age—(laughter)—they heard of young men
going into the metropolis and being taken advantage of by
persons here and there. This did happen, but the house
would allow him to suggest, in the most friendly way, that
if the hon. gentleman had not been prudent hitherto, he
should in future have some little introduction, and see who
the persons were who soaght to father their views upon him
and lead him into practices which he himself would depre-
cate. That paper accused the duchess of the prospective
murder of her daughter by immuring her in a certain con-
vent. That young lady was his niece, and he never saw a
person so anxious to enter into the order, knowing well its
scope and practices, as she was. There were many young
w omen who like her never could be happy in the tumult
and disturbance of the world. The hon. gentleman had
said that they should respect the feelings of others as Pro-
testants. Had the hon. gentleman respected their feelings
as Catholics when he stated that he disapproved of the letter
being addressed to the duchess, but not its contents. That
letter said her grace stood by the grave of his relative in a
sort of ecstacy ; that was not attributing the most praise.
worthy motives to her grace, who seemed to have gone to
the funeral to take part in the ceremony that was being per-
formed on the solemn occasion. And then as to the increase
in the number of converts ; the fact was that in 999 cases
out of 1000 these converts simply consisted of two or three
nuns, who were invited into the neighbourhood to teach a
school which some philanthropic gentleman had founded. ,
There were those—and probably the hon. gentleman
amongst the number—who accused the Catholics of keep-
ing their poor in ignorance; and yet they threw every ob-
stacle in the way of their educating them. He apologised
to the house for the statement which he had made ; it had
been most painful to him. if the sorrows whiehoppressed
one more than one could describe were to be raked up in this
way before the public one must come to the house and in
one's place defend himself from such attacks. Unfortu-
nately his famiiy had been diminished very considerably of
late, but he was happy that he was spared to defend them
from the calumnies which he had hoped that no member of
this house would have lent himself to. His family could
wish the hon. member (Mr. Newdegate) no harm; they
would wish: that he might see the error of his ways, and as
he became an older he might become a wiser and a juster
man. Thanking the house meet cordially for the reception
they had given him, and convinced that the British public
would know where to bestow its sympathy and its judgment
—a judgment, although it might be misled at times, was in
the main sound and healthy—he left the case with the fullest
confidence in their hands. (Cheers.)
Mr. O'HAGAN said it was perfectly notorious that, in
every probate cturt in Ireland, as well as in England, cases
were continually occurring on the ground that spiritual in-
fluence had been exercised, and on that ground the verdict
was sometimes set aside. The hon. and learned gentleman
proceeded to say that Mr. Hutchinson had a fortune of
£30,000, over which he had had entire control during his

Mr. HORSMAN gave notice that he would put a ques-
tion to the First Lord of the Treasury to the effect that
whether the result of the Conference having entered into
any engagement which might be binding on this country,
the terms of such engagement should not be submitted to
Parliament for sanction before its aloption.
ST. MARY'S SYDENHAM, BURIAL GROUND.
Mr. NE WDEGAEE, on the motion for going into com-
mittee of supply, moved for a select committee to inquire
into the allegations contained in the petition of Mr. Alfred
Brnee (presented 19th February), relative to the Saint
Mary's, Sydenham, burial grow). I, and further into the
existence, increase, and nature of the Conventual and
Monastic communities, societies, or institutions in England,
Wales, and Scotland. The hon. member entered into a
rather prosy detail of the circumstances connected with this
subject.

Sir G. GREY said it appeared to him that the petition of
Mr. Smee upon which the motion of the hon. member was I
founded did not of itself afford a sufficient reason for the
appointment of a committee, and he must express the same
opinion with respect to the correspondence between Mr.
Smee and the Home Office. At the same time he could
sympathise with the feelings of Mr. Smee, when he saw
one with whom he had been brought up on terms of great
intimacy, and which was subsequently cemented by the ties
of marriage, induced to change the religion in which he had
been born, and adopt a creed from which he (Mr. Smee)
consciously dissented. It was, indeed, a matter of sincere
regret to him that the youth of this country should be so
imperfectly acquainted with the doctrines of their own
Church, that immediately on their passing into the world
they should be exposed to the influence of those gentlemen,
who no doubt were persons of learning, of great powers of
persuasion, and of very attractive manners. Still the lion,
member would hardly recommend the House of Commons
to entertain the idea that any other measures could be taken
for the counteracting of those influences, except as far as
they were able by grounding our young men in the doc-
trines of the Church of England. Having said so much, he
Might now observe that Mr, Smee seemed to have taken a
most erroneous view of the powers vested in the Secretary
of State. The Acts for the regulation of the burial of the
dead within the metropolis are founded solely upon the
Principle of affording protection to:the public health.
The discretion lodged in the Government with respect to
the closing or opening of burial grounds was never in•
tended to be arbitrarily exercised ; nor was their ap-
proval to be granted or withheld according to the religious
opinions of the applicants. Mr. Smee, however, thought
otherwise ; and he was also under the impression that in
the present case some undue secret influence was brought to
bear upon the Home Office. He hoped the publication of the
correspondence would remove that impression, while he
must express his regret that Mr. Sines had thought
proper to introduce the name of the late Duke of Norfolk
into the proceedings. Dr. Faber, being at the time the prin-
cipal of the htoman Catholic College at Brompton, made
application to the Home office to establish a burialeground
fur the use of the college. On receipt of the application the
matter Was referred in the usual manner to the inspector,
and, as he took some time before reporting upon the appli-
cation, the late Duke of Norfolk wrote to the Home-office
calling attention to it. That letter, together with Dr.
Faber's original communication, having been forwarded to
the inspector,
be reported that, as far as sanitary considera-
tions were concerned, there was not the slighteat likelihood
of danger resulting from the establishment of an exclusive
burial-ground for this religious community. That being the
case, upon sanitary grounds, and sanitary grounds alone,
the Home-office granted the application. Last year, upon
Mr. Smee's making a complaint as to certain. irregularities
in the management of the burial-ground, the inspector again
reported ; but the report was to the effect that during the
seven years for which the burial ground had existed only
three interments had taken place there, and consequently
that no possible injury could have befallen the inhabitants
through its existence. So far, therefore, there was no reason
for the appointment of a committee. With respect to the in-

life ; that he had so disposed of all but £4,000 or £5,000 in
works of charity ; that he was 40 or 41 at the time of his
death in the Oratory; and that at his death he left this re-
sidue of his property to Father Faber, believing that that
reverend gentleman would use it for purposes after his own
heart. That bequest was now under the consideration of
the Probate Court of England, and it was a monstrous thing
that gentlemen of the highest character and devotion to
their religion should be thus assailed when the verb
upon which they were assailed was befo:io question
proper and com-
petent tribunal.
Sir G. B -tqi, explained the circumstance of Mr.
Hutchinsr.;:49-WsnYame on his tomb being different to his
baptismal name, by stating that he had changed his name
on being confirmed, which by the law of England he had
the power to do. He pointed out, too, that Mr Hutchinson's
will was not a death-bed will, but made three years before
his death.

Mr. R. LONG said that his hon. friend the member for
North Warwickshire had not the right to reply ; but after
the speech of the noble lord opposite, in reply to an attack

upon monastic institutions, and not upon the Howard family,
it was necessary to say, on behalf of his hon. friend, that

nothing was further from his intention than for a single

moment to say anything which could be construed or
twisted, even by the ingenious power of a Roman Catholic
--(cries of oh, and order)—into an attack upon the Howard
family. (Hear, and oh.) His motion had been directed
against institutions, and not against persons, and if any-

thin; painful had occurred, no one regretted it more than

tile hon, member for North Warwickshire. The noble lord's

I believe there never was an instance where so many,impor-
tant papers have been subjected to such a dipping process

as in this Dano-Gereian coireapoudence. (Hear, hear.) All
the important doeiMents—and they must have caused my
hone Mehd much trouLle—have been what is vulgarly

Called "through the mill" until they assume the shape of
elegant extracts. (Laughter.) These papers strongly re-
mind one of the character of the month which has just

passed. The correspondence in Parts 1,2, 3, and 4 was
conducted by the Foreign-office with leonine vigour ; No.
6, sir, has concluded with most lamb-like ba-sing. (Much
laughter.) In studying what Y may call the early style of
the Foreign-office I was impressed with fear lest the Go-
vernment, in their hysteric fusiness and irritating industry
in reading lectures to Germany and the Great Powers gene-
rally, might anticipate the suggestions of my hon. friend
the member for Swansea, and immediately send a fleet to
the Baltic, Luckily, No. 5 has been produced, and I am
relieved at least of that anxiety--(laughter)—for in those
papers their new style is perceptible, and I must say that a

more striking contrast to the first four volumes, or a more

remarkable avidity for feeding on humble pie—(cheers and
laughter)—has never been displayed by any Government or
any Ministry which has swayad the foreign destinies of
this country. (Hear, hear.) Let not the house be led away
by the exciting statement of n.y hon. friend—(a laugh)—
but let the house certainly consider what have been the
results, I will not say of our policy, because it would be an
affront to the word, but of our bungling diplomacy. We are
told we are to have a conference, and the extraordinary thing
is that directly this conference is announced the war, which

speech was a most ingenious perversion of his noble friend's
attack upon monastic institutions. If he (Mr Long) were
a Roman Catholic, he could not, after the statements which
were made with reference to the practices said to be carried
en in monastic and conventual institutions, oppose the
motion for inquiry. The house was entitled to have evidence
of the practices which were carried on in such establish-
ments. They had all received a printed paper which, if not
true, was a libel. It was entitled '• Facts on Nuns and
Nunneries," and gave many instances of the maltreatment
of poor unfortunate females who were maltreated and
seduced (laughter)—he did not mean practically seduced—
(renewed laughter)—into these places, which were prisons.
and not nunneries, where their property was confiscated,
and they were denied to their friends. If those statements
were falsehoods, let the Roman Catholics try the issue, and
disprove them it they could in committee. If the committee
was granted, his hon. friend, and those who acted with him,
would undertake to prove many such cases.
Sir P. O'BRIEN expressed the contempt he felt for the
statements of the hon. gentleman who had just sat down,
recommending to him the study of the speeches of his poli-
tical leader, the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire
(Mr Disraeli), in one of which he would find it justly ob-
served that "insolence is not sarcasm, and violence is not

had hitherto languished, has become most sanguinary—so
much so that in the same telegram announcing that M.

Quaade and another Danish Minister are about to start to

attend the Conference the intelligence is continued that
Sonderborg has very nearly been laid in ashes. The im-
mediate effect of the approaching Congress upon the north
of Europa, which we seek by its means to pacify, has been
to lead the Prussians to redouble their attacks, adding im-
mensely to the slaughter. (Cheers.) Let us go a little

further and see what this Conference is• We are told the

he attendance of all the signataries to that remarkable

Treaty of 1852 has been promised , and, what is more, that
a Plenipotentiary of the German Diet will attend—a Power,
by-the-by, which has been treated by the Government of
the noble lord heretofore very much in the light of a poor

relation—(laughter)—that is to say, not taken into account
at all. Suddenly—and let the house mark that it was at
the suggestion of the Frennh Government, which declined,
if there be any truth in the papers contained in No. 5, to
be present without a plenipotentiary from the Danish Go-

- -
vernment attended—we have a statement that a plenipoten-
tiary from the German Diet was also invited. Whether

lat plenipotentiary will attend or not we do not know

_ .
exactly, but from the nature of the German Diet I think
that wa can foresee that, whatever day the noble lor.i has

invective."
Mr. NEWDEGATE rose to offer some explanation, but
was stopped by cries of " Order."
The house then divided, and the numbers were—
For Mr. Newdegate's motion
Against
Majority --33
SCIENTIFIC INSTITUTIONS OF DUBLIN.

named for his Conference, the German Diet, by reason of
their sluggish mode of proceeding, will not be in a position

to scud an answer to the noble lord's invitation for some
weeks, if not for some months later. They will have to
refer the matter to the 37 States which they reptesent—

(laughter)—theso will refer it back again, and the subject
will then be entertained by a select committee—(laughter)
_ _

—so that at the end of the session, probably, the noble
lord will have an answer from the German Diet. The
French Minister, with more foresight than our own, sug-
gests that the protocol might be left open for the German
plenipotentiary ; and that, perhaps, might be the best

Mr. GREGORY called attention, in a speech of much
length and great variety of detail, to the condition of the
scientific institutions of Dublin which are assisted by Go-
vernment aid.
Sir R. PEEL said the Government were prepared to
agree to the appointment of a select committee to inquire
fully into the character of these institutions.
The discussion was nevertheless continued by Sir E.
Grogan, Mr. Whiteside, Mr. Vance, Mr, Lofroy, and Mr.
Adderley.

. . . _
course to pursue. But, suppose the Conference meets,
I want the house calmly to consider what it is to do. It

appears to me that is nothing more nor less than a means
of escape for her Majesty's Ministers from their bungling

proceedings and uncalled-for meddling in the North of

Europe. (Cheers.) It is, in fact, a political pic-nie given
by the noble lord, to which every country will be allowed
to bring its basket of suggestions---(laughter)—with no
piece de resistance provided in the shape of a basis, but with
perfect freedom—and indeed argument—on the part of
each one present to differ upon every point from everybody
else. (Hear, hear, and renewed laughter.) All this time
when the noble lord is sending out his general invitations
—" At home" on a certain day—l want to know what the
Foreign-office are about to do with this Treaty of May 8,
1852 ? (Hear, hear.) We hear a great deal about this
treaty in the early style of the Foreign-office ; but by some
extraordinary transmutation in No. 5, as laid upon the
table of the House, the Treaty of 1852 has vanished alto-
gether from the consideration of her Majesty's Government.
So thoroughly is this the case, that having put upon the
paper a motion for the 19th inst. relating to the Treaty of
1852, I now am seriously* a loss to know whether that
treaty any longer applies to the treatment of this Danes
German question. It is a curious study to trace what is
the main thought running through the mind of her Ma •
jesty's Government in their handling of this subject. In
their place in Parliament I find them speaking what my
hon. friend called grays big words of menace to Germany,
and clinging with desperate tenacity to what I call that
ill-omened, unfortunate, and unjust treaty of 1852—(hear,
hear)—a treaty which I shall prove was made at the insti-
gation of Russia—(hear, hear)—which compromised the
interests of Denmark, and which I think compromised the
honour of this country, in ignoring the liberties and rights
of a free people. (Hear, hear.) I will not inflict upon
the house a passage from the Blue-book, but if they
will turn to page 731, of Part No. 5 they will per-
ceive that in despatch 1,010, of February 23,
tin Foreign Minister, running away from his pre-
vious promises, wrote to Lord Bloomfield at Vienna,
proposing a conference without a basis. I leave it
to any sensible man to say, in the present state of
feeling between the Powers, whether there is any likelihood
of their:coming to an agreement at such a Conference, even
though the anxiety of the noble lord to get them all into
one room, like the Kilkenny cats, may be gratified. The
despatch to which I have referred was dated Feb. 23, and
on Feb. 26 a proposal in accordance with its terms was first
made to the Danish Ministers by Sir A. Paget; and what
was the state of things in the Danish Cabinet when that
proposal was made ? Why, so great was the consternation
created among those unfortunate Danes, whom we have
been leading astray all through with false hopes—(cheers)
—and then deserting them in their extremity—(renewed
cheering)—so great, I say, was the consternation among
them, that they said to Sir A. Paget, "For God's sake don't
call on us for any immediate answer ; if we agree at once
to a Conference without a basis, not merely will our places
be at stake, but probably the dynasty which you have taken
so much trouble to set up," That is the feeling created at
Copenhagen among the Danish Ministry by this proposal
of a Conference without a basis. On the 9th of March a
fresh pressure was put on Denmark. It appears to have
been felt that affairs had come to such a point in this house
that her Majesty's Government could no longer resist tak-
ing action and putting a fresh pressure ou Denmark. On
March 15 Austria declares to our ambassador that though
she had formerly agreed to the basis of the Treaty of 1852,
she will now no longer he satisfied with the fulfilment by
the Danes of the engagements of 1851-52 ; and that if she
meets in Conference she will demand further engagements,
On March 16 Denmark still asserts that she will only meet
in Conference on the basis of the engagements of 1851-52;
but she takes very little by this, for on March 17 Sir A.
Buchanan, at Berlin, announces to M. Bismark that her Ma-
jesty's Government had altogether given np engagements of
1851-52 as the basis for the meeting of the Conference.
(Bear, hear.) But what happens after that Y It is a most
extraordinary thing, and it must strike every hon. member
with astonishment, that whenever we want any real infor-
mation on foreign affairs we are not furnished with it by
our own Government, who, while they do not pretend to
legislate for home affairs, yet appeal to us for our support
on account of the vigour and foresight of their foreign
policy. Well, when anything remarkable is to be learnt
respecting foreign policy, we do not find it in this blue-
book. No. We must go to the foreign papers, and in the
second edition of the Vines published yesterday there ap-
pears a despatch from the French Minister for Foreign
Affairs to the French Ambassador in London, which is not
to be found in the blue-book, though the despatch is dated
March 20. The contents of that despatch are of so extra-
ordinary a nature that I think that some detailed statement
is due from the noble lord, the Prime Minister, as to
whether the Government are agreed to take the suggestion
contained in that despatch as the basis of the Conference
The proposition of the French Minister involves such a
r
serious principle that I think the house should take it into
consideration if the Government does not. M. Dcnoctuhyanthdee
Lhuys says he wishes to acquaint the Cabinet of London
with the course intended to be
etosatikeya s t:ia GovernmentbryyLhe
attend,F e
he thinks
French Go-
vernment
it
to
i ssay
his thdaati
t,ny if t referencetohien Ff
inform
herh n
French Plenipotentiary p
met enaCi info enc a ; and he goes on
will propose as a basis for the consideration of the Con-
ference the propriety of consulting the wish of the popu-
lation of Schleswig and Holstein as to who should be their
Sovereign. I take it that this is really a bona fide do_
spatch, and that is the purport of it. I want to know, then,
why it is not given in the blue-book, and whether the Go-
vernment will lay a copy of it on the table of the house.
I wish, too, that the noble lord will tell the house whether
he, or the representative of the British Government at the
Conference is prepared to concur in that basis laid down by
the French Minister. In fact, the further wo look into this
question of the Conference, it appears impossible to hope
that any good will result from it. None of the representa-
tives about to enter the Conference, with the exception of
the representatives of Austria and Prussia, appear to have
any settled ideas of any sort or kind, and they seem to have
given up all previous pledges to abide by the treaty of 1852.
The Conference, therefore, so far from settling the peace of
the North of Europe, is more likely to embitter matters, and
instead of localising the war, is likely to extend it over a
larger area. I would wish to draw the attention of the
house to the answer given by the noble lord the Foreign
Secretary of this country to the invitation to attend the
Conference, which was proposed by the Emperor of the
French to be held at Paris. The very reasons given for
refusing to attend that Congress apply with equal force to
the assembly of the Conference which is shortly to meet. I
will only read two passages from the despatch of the noble
lord, but they are of so much importance that I am sure the
house will excuse the time I shall occupy in doing so, At
the same time I must say I shall always lament that the in-
vitation to attend the Congress was not accepted ; and I
think also that it might have been responded to with some-
what more courtesy, without the answer being first published
in the limes newspaper. Lord Russell stated last November
to Lord Cowley that the British Government would feel more

THE SEN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1864.

apprehension than confidence from the meeting of a Con-
gress of SoirereiE,'ns and Ministers without fixed objects,
ranging over the map of Europe and exciting hopes and
aspirations which they might feel themselves unable either
to gratify or to quiet. But the noble lord goes further. Let
the house remember that the present Conference is to be
held during a state of war and without an armistice or basis
and then consider how applicable to it are these words, used
in reference to the Congress proposed by the French Empe-
ror. The noble lord the Foreign Secretary wrote in Novem-

ber last to Lord Cowley 1---
" Indeed it is to be apprehended that questions arising
from day to day, coloured by the varying events of the hour,
would give occasion rather for useless debate than for prac-
tical and useful deliberation in a Congress of 20 or 30 repre-
sentatives, not acknowledging any supreme authority, and
not guided by any fixed rules of proceeding."

That language held by the noble lord in refusing to join the
Congress for the pacification of Europe, and for lessening
our armaments, is more applicable on this occasion than
when it was addressed to the Emperor of the French.

(Hear, hear.) I am very much inclined to believe that this
whole Conference will only turn out a Parliamentary hoax,

and it would have been much better, instead of meeting on
_ _ _

the 12th April, if the noble lord postponed it till the Ist of
April next, (Laughter.) But I really wish to know when
this Conference will assemble. At present it stands for the

12th April, but I see by the foreign newspapers that it has
no chance of meeting then. I want only to know what pros-
pect there is, if it does meet at all, of any report of its pro-
ceedings being made before the house is dismissed for the long
vacation. I can well understand that if this case is brought
before the house in any shape the plea will be urged that
it would be prejudicial to the public service to discuss the
question while the Conference is sitting; but in my opinion,
and in the opinion, I believe, of a great many members of
this house who take the trouble to read the papers on the
subject, we should be strengthening the hands of the Go-
vernment by having a proper discussion on these questions.
I want to know, and I hope the noble lord at the head of
the Government will give some proper account to the house
as to what has become of this treaty of 1852. (Hear, hear.)

Does her Majesty's Government intend to abide by that
treaty, or are we to have another state of affairs by which
there will be a temporary patching up of this system on the
Continent, condemning these poor .unfortunate Schleswig-
Holsteiners to what the noble lord calls the sway of their

lawful Sovereign, but whom they acknowledge as their

lawful Sovereign. It certainly is surprising that any man
who pretends to lead a liberal party should endeavour to
force a Sovereign on a people who have never be consulted
as to their choice. (Hear, hear.) I hope the noble lord wih

give an explanation, and not evade any of these points ; but
of this lam awe, that, whatever may be the present
opinion of the country, in ignorance of the transactions
which have taken place, it will hereafter regret that Ger-
many has been irritated, Denmark cajoled, and England

humiliated. (Cheers.)
Mr. NEW LEGATE rose, but being greeted with cries
of " Spoken," resumed his seat.
Lord PALMERSTON said,—lt is difficult to satisfy my
hon. friend, for he finds fault with the past, with the pre-
sent, and with the future. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I
shall not, therefore, attempt to alter his opinions, but shall
simply answer the questions which have been put to me.
My hon. friend accuses her Majesty's Government of having
misled Denmark, and of having excited expectations which
have not been fulfilled. I utterly deny these allegations.
(Hear, hear.) There is not a syllable in the blue-books
with which my hon. friend pretends to be familiar, but
which I cannot believe he has read, which bears out the
assertion he has made. Our policy has been plain and
simple from the beginning, and, as I think, honourable to
us. Our object has been first of all to prevent war, and,
hostilities having commenced, to restore peace. My hon.
friend says we have thrown over the Treaty of 1852. No
such thing. (Hear, hoar.) Again, I say my hon. friend
has not read a word of the blue-books, for there is nothing
in them to justify such a statement. On the contrary, not
only do we maintain the Treaty of 1852, but every one of
the Powers who concluded that treaty equally maintain it.
Therefore my bon. friend must have been in a dream on
this matter—(hear, hear, and a laugh)—and comes down
here to expound his illusions, instead of telling us what he
would have discovered if he had perused those documents
which seem to weigh so much on his mind. My hon. friend
has fallen into some of those contradictions which man of
hi. genius and imaginative powers are occasionally apt to
stumble into. He has criticised the Conference and very natu-
rally, being of an inquisitive turn of mind, he wants to know
what the Conference will do when it assembles. I am not
able to gratify his curiosity. If he wishes to know the past
I furnish him with the blue-books. It he wishestoknow the
future he must apply somewhere else. (A. laugh.) My hon.
friend ridicules the Conference, which, by the way, he has
invested with a function which I was not aware naturally
belonged to it. He says the Conference cannot meet with-
out a basis. When two Governments begin to treat for
peace it is, no doubt, essential that the plenipotentiaries
should settle the terms on which they are to negotiate, and
agree whether it is to be on the principle of uti possidetis or
the status quo ante bellum. It is not, however, the peculiar
function of a Conference to have a basis. The pleniptenti-
aries have different powers, and meat for the purpose of
ascertaining what is the state of things, and how they can
be set right. That is a Conference. (Hear, hear.) My hon.
friend objects to the Conference, which is to meet for the
pit-pose of endeavouring to put an end to the hostilities
that are raging, but which he says Will only create more
mischief. He pledges his political sagacity--and I beg you
to bear that in alind—(a laugh)—that the Conte: once can
lead to no good result. I can only say I trust that this flay
next year ho will not be able to remind us of what he has
now predicted as having been fulfilled. (Hear, hear.) My
hon. friend says we are wrong to agree to the Conference,
but that we were equally wrong not to have agreed to the
Congress. He thinks the reason we gave fur not going
to the Congress was absurd. I said there was no object.
Well, there was no object for the Congress, because there
was no war which it was to bring to a close, and there was
no particular subject to which the Congress was to direct
attention. Hero, however, there is a distinct object—to en-
deavour to reconcile parties who are differing, and to put an
end to hostilities now raging. The cases are utterly dif-
ferent, and my hon. friend would, I think, have shown
more discrimination of mind if he had not drawn this dis-
tinction, which was exactly the wrong way. (A. laugh.)
I repeat-that all the parties who concluded the treaty of
1852 agree in holding that they are bound by it to acknow-
ledge King Christian as the Sovereign of Denmark, and to
maintain the integrity of that kingdom. You may say
that is not a basis ; at least it. is an agreement. (Hear,
hear.) The Powers have all agreed that that is the condi-
tion on which they enter into the conference with a view
to reconcile the differences which have arisen between
Denmark and Germany. My hon. friend confounds
two things which are in themselves entirely separate
—the agreements of 1851-2 and the treaty of 1852.
There are differences between Germany and Den-
mark as to the agreements re. 1852, the main facts of
which were that, whereas on the one hand the German
Powers agreed not to require the administrative and poiitica
union of Holstein and Schleswig, on the ether hand the
Danish Government agreed not to do anything which could
tend to incorporate Holstein with Denmark. But these
agreements are totally different from the Treaty of 1852, and
it is quite essential to our understanding of the matter, that
the distinction should be borne in mind. The agreements
of 1851-2 may be settled either way, without infringing
the Treaty of 1852, and the Treaty of 1852 may be adhered
to by those who entertain different opinions as to the en-
gagements which preceded it. We have the assent of all the
Powers who concluded—l do not say of those who acceded
to—the treaty—France, Austria, Prussia, Russia, Sweden,
and Denmark. The German Confederation was not a party
to the t treaty. (Mr B. Osborne—The Confederation was not
asked.) No; and some of the Powers of Germany objected
to proposing to the German Diet to become a party to the
treaty. (Hear.) At one time Prussia was against it, although
she afterwards changed her mind and wished the treaty to
be communicated to the Diet. The other Powers, however,
would not consent to that. We have asked the Diet to send
a plenipotentiary to the Conference. Whether they will be
as long in giving an answer as my hon. friend imagines I
cannot say ; but in deference to the desires of Austria and
Prussia, who are anxious to give them a little more time to
consider their answer, the meeting of the Conference will
be postponed from the 12th to the 20th of April. France,
it is true, wishes the Diet to send a representative to the
Conference, but does not make that a sine qua non. Even
if the Diet does not appear in the Conference, it will still
be possible to proceed with it. My honorable friend
alluded to a despatch from the French Govern-
vernment to the French ambassador here, containing the
suggestion of an appeal to the populatians of Holstein and
Schleswig. That is not, however, put forward as a basis,
but is thrown out merely as a suggestion. There are obvi-
ous objections which may b 3 raised to any such proceeding,
and it is not likely that the other Powers will fall into the
suggestion ; nor, indeed, does Franco require it. The French
Government state distinctly that they stand on the Treaty
of 1852, and hold themselves bound by its engagements.
Well, sir, that is the state of the case. My hon. friend has
his opinions ; but I do not think they are partaken by the
country at large. (Hear) Although my hon. friend is very
abundant in his criticisms, I am really quite at a loss to
understand what he would have done if he had the manage-
ment of affairs, (Mr. 11. Osborne—Let it alone,) My hon.
friend, therefore, would have been a party to a treaty (Mr.
B. 04borne—I would not have made it) by which this
country was bound to acknowledge a certain Sovereign as
King of the countries under the sway of the Danish Crown,
and to respect the integrity of the Danish monarchy; and
in spite of the general opinion that this country was bound
in honour and in interest to endeavour to maintain that
treaty, he would have done nothing but sit with his hands
in his pockets, as he is doing now. (A. laugh and " hoar,
hear,") Ido not think that such a course would have been
to the credit of the Government or to the satisfaction of the
country at large. (Hear, hear.) We may be wrong and he
may be right, but such, at least, is our opinion on the
matter. (Hear, heat.) We endeavoured to persuade other
countries to fall into our views, and we trust we have
accomplished, or are about to accomplish, a considerable
step in assembling a Conference with the object of restoring
peace. (llean) My hon. friend who opened the ques-
tion to-night refeired to a transaction at Sonderborg which
I am afraid there is no reason to doubt really took place.
We have no official or autheatie iutorulation, but we have