The Sun.
London, England, 1852-12-01 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT:

HOUSE OF COMMONS--(YESTERDAY)
(Continued from our Third Edition of last Nighi
MINISTERS' MONEY IN IRELAND.

its possession, and it had a right to make arrangements
for the interest of those who were settling in the town,
and, accordingly, these arrangements by which Protes-
tant ministers were to be supported, were made to en-
courage protestants to come and settle in Ireland. But
the act of Charles IL did not impose a personal tax ;
there was no remedy against the person ; the remedy
was against the property, and then whatever the tenant
paid, he was entitled to deduct out of his rent. He men-
tioned this to show that however inconvenient the tax
might be now, it was a just tax in its inception and ori-
gin. He thought, however, that there should be some
relief for the poorer class of the population ; and he
had prepared a measure which he thought would settle
the question on an equitable principle.
Mr. HUME thought it a great pity that, with a
church possessing such ample funds as the church of
Ireland there should continue a tax of this description,
producing so small a sum as 15,0001. a year. He com-
plained that they did not know what the learned gentle-
man was going to do. He said he would bring in a bill,
but would that bill take away the stigma of a person of
one religion being forced to pay for the religion of an-
other ? It was the same in Scotland with regard to the
annuity tax. He thought they should make a sacrifice.
The peace of the church in Ireland was of much more
importance than 15,0001. a year. He believed it was
originally a tax on property, but circumstances having
changed, and the Catholics being now far the most nu-
merous, it was a stigma upon them. Religion ought to
bring peace and goodwill among men, but instead of that
a few paltry pounds were made the cause of discontent.
He trusted that Ministers would also take into conside-
ration the annuity tax in Scotland, which was of the
same nature. -
Lord BERNARD said hon. members should bear
in mind that this was merely a preliminary session,
for the avowed object of discussing certain ques-
tions, but he trusted he should be excused saying a
few words on this subject. The house would bear
in mind that the property in these towns was es-
sentially the property of Protestants at the time
the tax was imposed, and those who. had purchased
it since had purchased it subject to this tax. He believed
that at present two-thirds of the tax at least fell on Pro-
testants ; and the others could deduct it from the head
rents, a great portion of which belonged to the Pro-
testants. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners at present
had no funds at disposal; many churches were in a state
of dilapidation, and there would be many more claims
for repairs if the clergymen thought their applications
would have any success.
Mr. MAGUIRE said he would not have arisen were
not this question one of considerable importance in some
of the principal localities of Ireland. He urged his hon.
friend to persevere in his motion, which he did not in a
spirit of hostility to the Government, but because the
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole) had given no suffi
cient assurance that he would take this question into
practical consideration, nor the principles on which the
proposed bill was to be founded. The right hon. gentle-
man spoke of the necessity of avoiding religious contro-
versy in that house ; but he conceived there was some-
thing still more important, and that was the necessity
of avoiding acrimony and hostility in Ireland. If
the right honourable gentleman or the Attorney-Gene-
ral would give an assurance that a measure would be
introduced which would do away with this acrimony,
he would counsel his honourable friend to withdraw this
motion. He did not object to this tax because it was a
tax on one description of persons more than another ;
but on a question of principle. Ever since the Union,
legislation had been, with slight exceptions, on the prin-
ciple of civil and religious liberty; but this tax was a
violation of that principle. To his own knowledge, in
the city of Cork, in Upper Blackmire, there was a dozen
Roman Catholic proprietors of his who had, in the last
twenty years, built 100 houses, and he asked if it was
fair that they should be subject to this tax ? He ad-
mitted, that houses of worship should be kept in a proper
condition. In the county of Cork there were several
Protestant churches without congregations ; and there
were four parishes in the diocese of Down which had
only three persons for a congregation, which three per-
sons migrated from one church to another, and then to
the third. If the settlement of this matter were just in
the time of Charles 11., no one would say it was just in
that of Queen Victoria, when the Catholics were to the
Protestants as seven to one in some localities, and in
others in even a greater proportion. Nothing could be
more irritating to Catholics than to have to pay this impost,
for they regarded it as a badge ofconquestand religious in-
feriority. But see how the system worked. There were con-
scientious men who refused to pay this tax, and who suf-
fered their goods to be seized. One witness described the
case of a man who had been a respectable merchant, but
who had been reduced in life. The collector demanded
of him 11. 7s. for three years' ministers' money. He re-
fused, on the ground of inability, to pay, and the furni-
ture which had been left him by the mercy of the sheriff's
officer was seized. He would leave the house to consi-
der what would be the effect upon an excitable people
to see a man treated_ thus by the representatives of a
minister of religion. (Cheers.) He (Mr. Maguire) had
the honour to know the Dean of Waterford, the Bishop
of Limerick, and others of the established clergy, all or
whom,: he was sure, wished to be on good terms with their
Catholic neighbours. One clergyman had declared that he
was anxious to avoid the shame of having to fight for his
income ; and many others had expressed similar opinions.
One of the witnesses, a collector, stated that he did not
give notice of the sales ; and there were therefore no
means of knowing what became of the surplus property,
even if ten times more were taken than was necessary to
satisfy the demand. A Quaker in Cork had two sacks of
flour taken, and it was never known what became ofthem,
but the collector was himself in the flour trade; and some
people were malicious enough to say that they had seen
him with his own orthodox hands dispensing the ravished
flour of the Quaker. (Loud laughter.) An instance had
also been known in which the executors of a deceased
clergyman had demanded eleven years' arrears, and it
was only after the claim had been compromised by the
payment of four years that the person was allowed to
exercise his right to vote. It was impossible to modify
the tax, so as to make it tolerable; for in any form it
would be odious. He (Mr. Maguire), a Catholic, had
Quaker tenants; and though he regretted to see them
subject to the demand, he should object to its being re-
moved to his own shoulders. Never was a time when it
was more necessary to cultivate a good feeling between
Catholics and Protestants, than now. An industrial
movement was going on, which he trusted would be so
developed as to lay the foundation of at least a local
prosperity in many parts of Ireland. Catholics, Pro-
testants, and Quakers, were all promoters of it together;
and when all were anxious to increase the material in-
terests of the country, it was most important to do away
with anything that could give rise to rancour or ill-
feeling. (Cheers.) In the name, then, of religion,
which was dishonoured by the tax—in the name of jus-
tice he called upon them to abolish an impost so die.
graceful and so injurious. (Cheers.)
Sir J. SHELLEY trusted that the hon. gentleman
would not press his motion to a division, until they had
the measure of the Government before them. If they
should be dissatisfied with that measure, the hon. gen-
tleman would be in no worse position than he was now.
Captain JONES observed that the hon. gentleman
saedß°onmahi
opposite had objected to being forced to pay ministers'
money,
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that the intention of the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
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was to divide measure, and not a portion of a general reform.
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withdraw his motion.
Mr.
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the
from the occupiers to the landlords.
The house. then divided on the "previous question,"
namely, whether the motion should be put, and the
numbers were :
hissdlitAt

Ayes
Noes

94
140

--- The motion was therefore not put to the house. 46
BANS NOTES BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed, and the
house adjourned at a quarter past seven.

PAIREL—Mr. Kershaw paired off with Mr. Arkwright
in favour of Mr. Fagan's motion for the abolition of
ministers' money in Ireland.