The Sun.
London, England, 1864-01-22 00:00:00

est t,

MR. BAINES AT LEEDS.

Mr. E. BAINES, M.P., attended the annual meet-
ing of the Leeds Chamber of Commerce, which was
held at the Town-hall of that borough on Wednes-
day, at noon, and addressed the members. He said
he had listened with great interest to the very busi-
ness-like report which had been laid before them.
That report, in all its branches, convinced him more
and more, of the great utility of Chambers of Com-
merce. They created an interest in the subject of
grievances, or of injury or of obstruction to trade,
and these questions were brought before them by
practical men, who pressed them upon their mem-
bers, who assisted to press them upon the public.
The Institution of Associated Chambers of Com-
merce also took up these subjects, and it was thus
that public opinion was pervaded and the mercan-
tile world and the Government influenced upon
these important matters. (Hear.) Reference was
made in the report to the vast expense of local bills.
That would be a question of very great interest this
session. He hardly knew how any other business
was to be transacted ; the local bills numbered
something like 330, and the amount of money pro-
posed to be expended on them was something pro-
digious. The amount of time which would be con-
sumed in the examination of these schemes by com-
mittees would also be prodigious, and therefore the
question on these grounds was one of vast interest
and importance. It had already been examined by
a committee of the House of Commons, but he did
not think anything had been suggested, by which
any material alteration would take place in the sys-
tem by which private bills were submitted to Parlia-
ment. With reference to the question of the West
Riding assizes, upon that, as upon all commercial
matters, he agreed with his hon. friend and colleague
(Mr. Beecroft), and they had each done his best, by
letters and in every other way in which they could
use influence, to impress upon the Government and
those connected with it the superior claims which
Leeds had to be the assize town, or one of the assize
towns, for the West Riding. In consequence of the
opinion expressed here and at Sheffield relative to
the claims of the latter town as the centre of a very
important district, containing a population of be-
tween 300,000 and 400,000 in the remote part of
the riding, the claims of Leeds and Sheffield had
been put together ; not that they were necessarily
indissoluble ; if the claims of Sheffield were nega-
tived, the claims of Leeds might be admitted ; but
as they knew they had a formidable competitor in
the town of Wakefield. They had prejudices to
combat—and which he feared all large manufactur-
ing towns had to combat—in the feelings of coun-
try gentlemen not wishing to go among them and
come in contact with their populations, and who, he
believed, rather preferred a small town not too far
from green fields to a large town. That was very
strongly against Leeds. He believed the question
would soon be settled, but he was sorry to be quite
unable to give them any information as to the way
in which it would be decided. The report made
reference to new commercial treaties, which was a
matter of great importance to Leeds. He was glad
that the commercial treaty with Italy was likely to
be of great value to this town, and to open up a
new and large field of consumption. Mr. Ludolf
had mentioned the subject of commercial relations
with Austria, which he (Mr. Baines) brought be-
fore them lest year. It was quite true there was
very small commercial intercourse between this
country and Austria, but there was most ample
room for a great development of commerce between
these two countries. There was hardly any civilised
country with which our intercourse was so limited,
and hardly any country which had so large a
combination of means for prodzeing those things
which weatd be useful to our trade. It was
chiefly the fault of the Austrian Government—
'with their old system, which was hostile to free
trade and favourable to protection—that we had not
been able to negotiate a commercial treaty with that
country. It was a pleasant thing to know that
Austrian deputies were sent to attend the sittings of
the British Association at Newcastle, with the view
expressly of looking into commercial matters, and
of rep3rting, whether there could not ho profitably a
freer intercourse between the two countries. He
hoped their report would be a highly favourable
one, especially as they knew that the two chief
Ministers, Count Rechbsrg and Baron Schnierlin;-,
were both favourable to the principle of free trade.
(Hear, hear.) On the subject of a Government
elepertrnent of trade in connexion with our foreign
trade, he continued to entertain the same opinions
as he had expressed before. He did not know
whether the new Minister, or Minister expressly
assigned to this particular department, should be a
commercial Minister in the Foreign-office or a Fo-
reign Minister in the Board of Trade ; but it did
seem to him absolutely as clear as daylight that
there ought to be some Minister expressly charged
van our commercial relations. Ho was happy to
see this question had been mentioned at the meeting
of the Bradford Chamber of Commerce, and was
to form the subject of discussion at the meeting
of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, and he
should be most happy to do anything to assist in
this important object. At present it was quite evi-
dent that many important subjects dropped, as it
were, between two stools, no one being expressly
charged with the duty of attending to them. (Hear,
hear.) Allusion had been made to the extra quarter
per cent. charged upon inland bonding warehouses.
He had spoken to Mr. Gladstone respecting it,
and his answer was—" I want to pay the expenses ;
it was the distinct understanding on which
bonding warehouses were allowed that that quar-
ter per cent. should be paid. I can't and I won't
give it up." That wa© Mr. Gladstone's decided
opinion, but it was no law of the Medes and Per-
sians, and if they were able to say from experience
that this charge prevented them from receiving any
considerable appreciable advantage from the esta-
blishment of bonding warehouses, he thought they
would have a strong case to go to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and ask to be put on the same
footing as older bonding towns. They might show
that the Government was bound to incur the ex-
pense of collecting its own revenues, and that they
ought not to be exposed to a deferential duty, as it
were, for that purpose. (Hear.) On the subject of
a registration of partnerships he concurred in the
opinion expressed by the President. He did not see
why partnerships should not be registered, just as
the shareholders in banks and joint-stock compa-
nies were registered. He knew this was not accept-
able to the House of Commons and to the city of
London, but he thought the Chambers of Commerce
should continue to discuss the subject. It was one
of these regulations requiring that all matters affect-
log credit and trade should be open and above board,
end which he believed would eventually have such
is response from public opinion and common sense
that it would be ultimately successful. Mr. Baines
alluded to the President's observations respecting
the reports of foreign Consuls upon trade, express-
ing his dissent from that gentleman's opinion as to
their value, and stating that some of those reports,
especially from France and Belgium, were most
valuable and interesting. Mr. Lndolf had alluded
to Brazil. Unfortunately we had got into a political
quarrel with that empire, and he did not feel con-
fident that we were in the right. (Hear.) He felt
that we had acted in an imperious way, and exacted
more than we should from a nation on the same
level of importance with ourselves. Ho was not satis-
fied with the conduct of our ambassador at Uruguay,
and he hoped that fur the interest of peace, the
Chamber of Commerce would make such represen-
tations to the laureign-ellicu that the mieunderetand-
lug existing with so vast end important a cuuutry as
Brazil, which was so long a customer to our trade,
might as soon as possible be removed. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to Cuba, he believed
the explanation of
3I r. Baxter had set right the question raised by Mr.
cittnn a viral years ego differential duties were
I and now the wilyquestion, question, though one
-
oat referred to the difference in the
qualities of sugar. It was astonishing the amount
of interest felt on this subject in London, Liverpool,
end Glasgow by the refiners, importers, and mer-
session Mr. Gladstone stated
chants, and in th© last
that a " sugar congress" was about to be held in
Paris, to come to some,decision as to the classification
of sugars, without injuriously affecting the trade.
That congress had been held, and they might there-
fore expect something would Soon be done. With

E+ :iii!

of a r

regard to the growth of tobacco and beetroot, no
doubt both were special cases. The Government got
a large sum from the import duty on tobacco, and
they could not spare it. It was a duty producing no
less than five millions sterling, and a better duty
could not possibly exist. He should not consider if
it were ten millions it would be too much to levy on
tobacco—(laughter)—and that was the only reason
why it could not be beneficially allowed to be grown
at home, and rather than ask us to pay an additional
house duty or increased income tax he hoped the
Government would consider well before they gave
up the tobacco duty: With regard to beetroot it
was found necessary to levy a duty upon it similar
to that upon sugar. These duties were in course
of modification, and he should be glad if they could
be brought down to nothing, as, indeed, upon tea,
coffee, and all such articles of food which came so
largely into general consumption. In the next
place he (Mr. Baines) had to congratulate the
Chamber on the prosperity which during the past
year had attended the trade of Leeds in all its
branches. He congratulated them also as men of
humanity upon the happy measure in which there
had been a restoration to a better state of things in
Lancashire. (Hear.) Now, they did not see in
that district that prostration and appalling condition
of the people which was witnessed a year ago. It
appeared that now there could be got from all quar-
ters of the globe the kind of cotton suitable for
Lancashire uses quite independent of the United
States, and the President of the Chamber of Com-
merce said that during this year as much cotton
would be imported from other parts of the world as
would be equal to two-thirds of the highest annual
consumption which ever took place. That would
be a very important thing, and no doubt it would
greatly reanimate the drooping trade of Lancashire.
(Hear, hear.) He might first say to the practical
men of business he saw about him that they were
now enjoying a great measure of artificial prosperity
in Leeds and the adjacent clothing districts. They
were positively benefiting by the reverses and dis-
tress of their neighbours in the cotton districts, by
the enhancement which had taken place both in the
price of the raw material and of manufactured
goods, in consequence of the scarcity of the raw
material and the dearness of manufactured goods in
the cotton trade. But they might depend upon it
there would certainly be a reaction. As the cotton
trade revived the trade of Leeds must expect to go
down. He had the strongest possible conviction of
it. He would say to the wool merchant, "Do not
keep too large a stock," and to the woollen mer-
chant ho would say, "Do not overburden your
warehouses with a heavy stock, buy as much as
possible from hand to mouth." And he would say
the same to the flax spinners. He did not say when
this evil change would come; it might come soon ;
but though the merchants in this town and district
were now gaining a great profit through the mis•
fortunes of the cotton trade, with the revival of that
trade they would come to occupy the same position
which they did before, and there must before
long be a reaction in the price of the goods
they manufactured; and, on the other hand, there
was the state of things arising from the enormous
amount of public undertakings which were pre-
sented to notice. He thought it was a bad indica-
tion—a dangerous indication, and it was a state of
things which must be watched very carefully by
those who did not wish to lose their savings. No
less than 100 millions of property out cf capital had
been laid out in the various joint-stock companies
which were proposed during the last year alone—
joint-stock companies which, if they were to call up
their capital, would require 100 millions. What
were they going to do with it ; it was exclusively
of railways ; but there had been paid within the
last few days seven millions sterling as deposits on
new railway projects to come before Parliament
next Session. The deposit was 8 per cent., about
1-12th of the whole, and therefore seven millions
implied 84 millions sterling of capital it was pro-
posed afresh to invest in railways by Bills now be-
fore Parliament, in addition to what the country
was already pledged to do. Then there were 100
millions and 80 millions in addition to all other en-
gagements, and these many millions were Indepen-
dent of Indian railways, public loans of four or five
millions sterling, all of which goes out of this coun-
try. The average amount expended last year in
en railways was 12 millions, A hundred and
twenty millions had been added to the paid-up
capital of railways during the last ten years, of
foreign, British, and colonial railways, And now it
was proposed to make an addition of 100 millions
more. What savings had the country to enable
it to do these things ? What was the amount of its
savings annually ? From enquiries and from read-
ing a valuable article which had appeared in the
Economist, written by a friend of his, whom he
knew to be one of the best statists in the country,
he found the annual amount of savings in this
country was estimated at 130 minions sterling. But
of that 130 millions sterling the writer made out that
40 millions sterling was invested in the department
of houses and buildings, in the building of new
places of business to meet the wants of the increas-
ing population. Thirty millions sterling, he said,
were expended in loans, colonial and foreign rail-
ways, and other public companies, such as tele-
graphs, docks, harbours, &c. This 70 millions be-
ing so expended the writer doubted whether the
remaining 60 millions would suffice " for the drain-
age and improvement of the soil ; for the multipli-
cation of manufactories, tools, and machines; for
increase of trading capital, ships, consignments,
and the like ; for foreign and colonial loans, and for
the increase of furniture, apparel, works of art, and
objects of taste and luxury." So the meeting would
see that the country was spending as fast as it was
saving. He (Mr. Baines) wanted to know where
this further 180 millions sterling was to come from
which was now to be invested in railways and joint
stock companies this next year. He could not for
his own part see where it was to spring from. He
was not disposed to take a too prudential view, but
it was desirable to have the matter fairly before
their attention, and he was sure his hon. colleague
(Mr. Beecroft) would sympathise with him in what
he had said on the subject. He (Mr. Baines) really
must look at it in two ways. First, all these com
panies indicated an excess of credit. Artificial pros-
perity is always the effect of real prosperity. All
our inflated and fevered states have originated in a
really solid prosperity, and solid prosperity has
gone on so long that men are encouraged to extend
their aims in every direction. All fear had gone,
and the experience was bright and pleasant, and so
it went on until the country got into something like
a state of fever. He feared this vast number of new
companies indicated that we were in such a state
now. He (Mr. Baines) said if all these concerns
went on they would bring the country to a very
great want of capital, and by and by the rate of
discount would be up much higher even than it is
now. He was happy that that rate had been raised,
and he hoped it would check or destroy more of the
new projects. He was glad of this opportunity to
express these opinions before those who were cap-
able of protesting with effect against such a state of
things. If he were wrong in the views he had ex-
pressed he should be glad to be set right by the
Chamber he was addressing, but if he was right he
should not be sorry that he had said to the gentle-
men who were at the head of the trade of his native
town that this was a time in which they should
exercise caution as to their future operations.
.Applause.)

-
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IN PORTUGAL. The
Minister of Justice of Portugal laid before the
Chamber of Deputies, in tie sitting of the 11th, a bill de-
creeing the abolition of the punishment of death, which
punishment the government proposes to maintain only for
military crimes, in the event of war with a foreign power.
►SUIT FOR THE RETURN OF A BRASS KETTLE.—
That the kettle bad boon rrthrned, that the defendant had
never borrowed it, and that the plaintiff never had a
i kettle to lend.

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THE SUN, LOND

COURT OF COMMON COUNCIL.

A Court of Common Council was holden yesterday in the
Council Chamber, Guildhall. The Lord Mayor presided.
The Remembrancer read a long list of bills, railway and
others, to be brought forward in the approaching session of
Parliament that were likely to affect the city of London.
He at the same time eaid that, with regard to some of them,
if the Corporation should feel it expedient to oppose them,
it was necessary that proceedings should be speedily
taken. _ _

The whole of the bills were referred to the Law and Par-
liamentary Committee, in order that they might take them
into consideration and report forthwith.

THE LONDON FIRE BRIGADE,
Mr. H. L. TAYLOR asked the permission of the Court to
mention a subject which he said was of considerable im-
portance, not only to the citizens of London, but also to
the inhabitants of the metropolis at large. He said
that he had reason to believe that a communication had
been made to the Metropolitan Board of Works by
the Home Secretary to the effect that it was intended to
raise a fire brigade in the metropolis, and although he was
not in a position to inform the Court the precise nature of
the step that was intended to be taken, it was one that would
undoubtedly very materially affect the rates of the inhabi-
tants of the metropolis, and also those of the city of London,
and he therefore asked the Court to consent to allow the
matter to go before a committee, in order that they might
make the necessary inquiries, and collect the requisite in-
formation, and report thereupon to the Court. (Hear, hear,)
He should therefore propose that the subject be referred to
the General Purposes Committee, _ _

Mr. RUDKIN supported the motion, and said that from
what he had hoard, he believed that if the scheme in con-
templation by the Government was carried out it would
cost the citizens of London a very large sum of money.
(Hear, hear.)
The LORD MAYOR observed that he had reason to know
that communications had for some time been going on be-
tween the Metropolitan Board of Works and the Home
Secretary with a view to place in the hands of the former
the creation of a fire brigade for the metropolis, and that if
the plan was carried out it would entail a very heavy charge
upon the ratepayers. He might also state that he believed
that one portion of the proposed scheme was to relieve the
different fire offices from the payment of the amount now
contributed by them towards the support of the present fire
brigade. (Hear, hear.)
The motion of Mr. Taylor was then agreed to.
RAISING, OF HOLBORN VALLEY.

Mr.F. MAYNARD presented a petition from Mr. Marrable,
one of the unsuccessful candidates for designs for effecting
the above important improvement, praying the Court to re-
consider the decision they had arrived at in reference to the
matter.
It will be remembered that Mr. Alarrable was one of the
three candidates selected as having sent in the best designs
for raising the Holborn Valley, the other two being Mr.
Bell and Mr. Sorby, to whom the first premium of £250
and the second of £l5O were awarded. Mr. Marrable, in his
petition, pointed out various difficulties in the way of carry-
ing out either of the accepted plans, and he prayed the Court
to allow the subject to be referred back to the Improvement
Committee, and also that his own plans and designs should be
submitted to some independent gentlemen of high eminence
in the profession, that they might give an unbiassed opinion
upon those designs.
Mr. Marrable attended at the bar in support of his petition,
and in answer to the questions that were put to him by
various members of the Court, he stated what he conceived
to be serious objections to the designs that had been adopted
by the committee, and he also appeared specially to complain
that Mr. Haywood, the engineer to the Corporation, should
have been permitted to use his influence in reference to the
acceptance of the designs by the Improvement Committee.
Mr. MAYNARD, having addressed the Court in support
of the petition, moved that the prayer of the petition be
complied with, and that the matter should be referred back
to the Improvement Committee for further consideration.
Mr. RoWE opposed the motion, and said that if the Court
were to adopt such a course as the one proposed upon every
application made to it by every disappointed competitor,
they should never be able to get through with the business
of the Corporation. (Hear, hear.) The Improvement
Committee had considered the subject most attentively, and
had made their report, and now it was sought to open
the whole question again. (Hear, hear.) He was most
strenuously opposed to such a proceeding, and should, there-
fore, move that the petition do lie on the table,
Deputy PERKINS seconded the amendment.
Deputy FRY, the chairman of the Improvement Com-
mittee, expressed his opinion that it would be exceedingly
inconvenient and inadvisable to open the question after
the whole subject had been fully discussed and decided
upon, He would state at the same time that it was
impossible for a more honourable or independent decision
to have been arrived at than the one agreed to by the
committee. (Hear, hear.) He would also add that no
officer of the Corporation had anything to do with, or
had in any way influenced that decision. (Hear, hear.)
He would also state that although the committee had ac-
cepted the designs of Mr. Isell and Mr. Sorby, neither of
these plans was perfect, but would require a great deal of
alteration. The committee, however, had no alternative but
to decide in favour of those plans, because they were plans
that most embodied the principles upon which the committee
had resolved to act in carrying out this important improve-
ment With regard to the present petition ho would only
observe that if the Court were to entertain it, every other
disappointed candidate might take a similar step, and he
did not know where the matter would end. (Hear,)
Mr. HOPGOOD said. that although he concurred with the
committee in the decision, he thought it rather unfortunate
that Mr. Haywood, one of the Corporation officers, should
have been allowed to interfere in any manner with reference
to the acception or rejection of the plans and designs that
were sent in by the different competitors.
Deputy DE JERSEY said that what was suggested by the
hon. member was not the fact. Mr. Haywood had nothing
whatever to do with the decision of the committee relating
to the designs that were sent in to them.
Mr. MAYNARD said if Mr. Haywood had had nothing to
do with the decision of the committee, he should like to
know what he was paid £l,OOO for by them? (Hear.)
Mr. GLOVER wished to know whether it was the fact
that the committee paid Mr. Haywood £l,OOO for his ser-
vices to them in reference to this matter. Probably the
chairman of the Improvement Committee would not object
to answer the question.
Deputy FRY said it was true that Mr. llaywood had been
paid £1,600 by the committee for his services in reference
to this matter, and he begged to inform this Court that the
committee prepared a resolution to this effect, and that it
was carried unanimously. If he was asked what the £l,OOO
was paid for, he could inform the :u that it was for his as-
sistance in examining and reporting upon more than a
hundred plans that were submitted to the committee, and
for also preparing the plans to be submitted to Parliament,
which, but for his assistance, could not have been prepared
in time. (Hear, hear.) He could also inform the Court
that if any other engineer or surveyor had been employed,
the expense would have been unavoidably greater. (Hear.)
Mr. EDMONDS said he should like to be informed whether
any committee had the power to expend £l,OOO in thisman-
ner without the consent of the Court of Common Council.
Deputy FRY said that the money did not come out of the
corporation funds, but out of a fund created by Act by Par-
liament. for the purpose of carrying out these improve-
ments.
Alderman DAKIN said that he should wish to know whe-
ther a portion of such a fund as the one alluded to, which
belonged to the City, could be expended without the consent
of the Court.
The CIiA.MITERLAIN, who was aubsequently appealed to,
stated that the money was paid out of the fourpenny City
coal dues, which were levied under the Act of Parliament
for the purpose of carrying out these improvements, He at
the same time said that it was always considered competent
for a committee having the powers granted to the Improve-
ment Committee, to order similar sums of money to be paid.
(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. MAYNARD in reply, the
amendment and the motion were put to the Court, when
the former was declared to be carried.
A divicion was demanded, upon which the numbers ap-
peared to be—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority for the amendment —sB
THE NEW LUNATIC ASYLUM,

There were several petitions from different wards in the
City, praying the Court to take the necessary steps to pre-
vent the new lunatic asylum, on its completion, from
coming under the control of the magistrates of the City of
London, who would have the power of levying a county rate
if they thought fit to do so for the support of the inmates.
It was urged in some of the petitions that, if necessary, an
act of Parliament should be obtained for this purpose.
Along and desultory conversation, unattended with any
result, took place upon this subject during which it was
stated that no doubt was entertained that the magistrates
would perform the duties that would devolve upon them in
reference to the establishment in the inost satisfactory man-
ner; and although it was believed that they were them-
selves opposed to the principle of making a county rate upon
the citizens for the support of the establishment, still it was
feared they might be compelled to du so. Iu order to avoid
all possibility of such a course, which is naturally most ob-
noxious to the ratepayers of the City of London, the peti-
tioners were desirous that the new asylum should not be
placed under their control, but should remain under that of
the Court of Common Council.
The matter was eventually postponed, upon the under-
standing that a special court should Le convened, at which
the whole sulject should be fully discussed. The various
petitions and memorials were, however, in the meantime,
referred to the Special Lunatic Asylum Committee, to be
taken into consideration.
Mr. Deputy BOWER brought up a petition signed by the
merchants, housekeepers, traders, and occupiers in the ward
of Billingsgate, in ward meeting assembled, praying the
Court to take such steps as they may confider necessary to
passing through Parliament of railway schemes
contemplate lines of railway through the said ward.
preventwh ioh th e
Mr. Deputy BOWER moved that it should be referred to
the Law and Parliamentary Committee, to take such steps
as they thought fit, and to report to the court.
Mr. Deputy Lo'rT seconded the motion.
Mr, Alderman SIDNEY also supported the motion, and