The Sun.
London, England, 1864-11-22 00:00:00

THE DERBY.

sto 1 aget Mr Merry's Liddington (off—take 11 to 2)
12 to 1 agat Marquis of Hastings's The Dnke (taken)
12 to 1 agst Mr l'Anson's Breadalbane (offered)
25 to 1 agst Sir Joseph Hawley's Bedminster (taken)
1000 to 35 agst Lard Glasgow's Brother to Minie (taken)
2000 to 60 agst Mr Maokenzie's Oppressor (taken)
4000 to 100 agat Lord Durham's Ariel (taken)
40 to 1 aget Mr W. l'Anson's Broomielaw (taken)
1000 to 10 aget Sir R. Bulkeley's Don Basilio (taken)
1000 to 10 agat Mr ]Berry's Wild Charley (off)

BETTING AT MANCHESTER.—MONDAY.
GREAT WATERLOO (COURSING) our.
25 to 1 agst Mr J. Knowles's nomination (taken and
offered)
28 to 1 agat Mr H. Ilaywood's do. (taken)
100 to 3 agst Mr Spinks' do. (taken)
100 to 3 aget Mr G. Steel's do. (taken)
100 to 3 agst Earl of Sefton's do. (taken)
100 to 3 apt Mr Lloyd's do. (taken)
100 to 3 aget Mr G. A. Thompson's do. (taken)
40 to 1 agat Mr G. Bruce's do. (taken)
40 to 1 agst Mr J. Johnstone's do. (taken)
THE DERBY.
2000 to 40 agel Zephyr (taken)

RACING FIXT

RES FOR 1865.
:TART.

FEBR'

Lincoln spring

Derby Spring 2
Liverpool Spring
Shrewsbury Spring

Nottingham Spring ..•. 28
OR.

Warwick Spring
Chelmsford Spring

APRIL,
Northampton 4 Newmarket Craven .... 17
I
Croxton Park 7 Durham
--MAY.

Newmarket Ist Spring.. 1
York Spring
Salisbury
Ju

Manchester
Ascot...
_ _ Ju

Bath . 23
Epsom 3O

Newmarket July. - _
4
Nottingham
-- AUG

Alexandra Park 2O
Newton

Reading
. ... 10
Egham .. 15
Oxford
York ..
Plymouth .. 24

Good wood

Lichfield
Devon and Exeter 29
Derby Summer 3O
Weymouth

SEPTEMBER.
Leicester 7 Monmouth 2l
Doncaster
Richmond ....
OCTOBER
Newmarket Second Oct. 9 f Newmarket Houghton.. 23

Liverpool Cotton Market—This Day,

A very strong market. Sales probably 15,000
bales.

SHIPPING-THIS DAY,

LONDON, Nov. 22 —Wind this day at noon—South.,
Easterly ; moderate breeze and cloudy weather, with song)
rain.

CA.RD2FF, Nov. 21.—Wind W.S.W.—Arrived—Henry
Brown, from Quebec.

DOVER, Nov. 20.—Wind S.W.—Arrived—Courtons
from Southampton for Havre.

PORTSMOUTH, Nov. 21.—Wind S. V.—Sailod—Koori~
Mooria, for Melbourne.

DARTMOUTH, Nov. 21..—Wind N.W.—Arrived—Sillery,
from Rangoon for Shanghai, leaky, with loss of bulwarks,
and other damage.

FLAMOUTR, Nov. 21.—Wind S.W.—Arrived—Allerton,
rom Quebec for Berwick, with loss of round bonse and
other damage.

BRIDGEWATER, Nov. 21. Wind ►S.E.—Arrivod—Para•
gon, from Quebec.

COWES, Nov. 21.—Wind E.—Arrived—Catherine, front
Rio Janeiro.

BRISTOL, Nov. 21.—Wind S.W.—Arrived—Creseencia,
from Liverpool foa Havannah.

OFF DOVER, Nov. 21.—Arrived—Cella, screw steamer,
from New York.

PILL, Nov. 21.—Wind S.W., light.—Sailed—Reindur,
!rem St John's, Newfoundland.

(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.

Plymouth, Tuesday Morning.
The screw steam-frigate Liverpool (39), Capt. Rawley
Lambert, from North America and the West Indies, arrived
in the Sound this morning.
The merchant brig Volunteer, from Lagos, which arrived
last night, has on board Captain Bergstrom and the crew of
the Russian schooner Die Biene, from Lisbon, with ealt for
Christiansted, which has foundered in the Atlantic.

(BY MAGNETIC TELEGRAPH,)
GRAVESEND, TatedayMorning.
Arrived—Queen, from St. Michael's; Dart, from Rotter-
dam.

DEAL, Tuesday Morning
Anchored—Russian steamer of war, from the west,

Foreign Mail Packet Lists

-II-

MAILS DUE.

Australia and Mauritius, via Eoutbatnptcn ..Dec. 19.
,T!s, Marseilles: Dec. 13,
Brazil and Cape Verde, by British packet. Dec. 5.
Cape of Good Hope, Ascension, and St. Helena Nov. 29.
'hina, Penang, and Singapore, via Southampton Dec. b '
_ via Marseilles Nov. 1 I •

Falkland Islands

Gibraltar, via Southampton .. Nov. 26,
Eadia (Calcutta), and Ceylon, via Southampton Dec. 2. '
via blarsoilloo No v, 27.
India (Bombay), via Southampton , Nov. 26.
. via Marseilles
Portugal....
Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton
—, . via Marseilles ........ Nov, 26.
Newfoundland .. Nov. 23.
Oporto and 'Vigo ..
U. S. and British N. America, by Brit, packet.... Nov. 23.
by U.S. packet....
by Canadian packet. Nov. 25.
W.C. of Africa, Madeira, and Tener;ffe Dec. l 1.
West Indies and Pacific
Bahamas (via New York)
Bermuda (ditto) ....
Cuba and Mexico
............ ..Nov. 28.

---
During the last few days there has not been much
animation in the Foreign and Colonial Produce
Markets. Sugars have been in moderate request
at about previous rates. For coffee there has been
a good demand at full prices, while tea has been
dull. Bice continues to be held for higher rates
while in fruit, spices, and saltpetre there has been
little change of importance. Tallow has been in
moderate
and
request
forward de
at raltihveery.rhigher prices for both
present

The Imperial Turkish Government have just
concluded a loan for £2,000,000 with the Socie 6
Gecerslc Ottomane. The money is to be paid by
instalments, which are to extend over till njt
July, and as security for the redemption of the
debt, the Societe are to hold the tithes on the sheep
in Roumelia. A commission is also to be paid to
the Societe for the collection of the dues.
It has been notified that an interim dividend, at
the rate of 8 per cent. per annum for the half-year
ending the 30th June last, will be paid on the shares
of the South African Mortgage and Investment
Company. •

The Artillery Experiments at Portsmouth.

The competitive firing with the naval 70 pounder
guns at Portsmouth—one wedge breech loading
Armstrong, one shunt rifled muzzle loading Arm.
strong, and one Whitworth muzzle loader—was
brought to a close, with the exception of some few
rounds from the Whitworth gun, to ascertain the
penetration of shot under water, with the shell fir.
ing at the Alfred target ship on the 15th irst. ; and
the labours of the special committee, which have
contacted the experiments throughout,at Shoebury.
ness, Bexhill, and Portsmouth, having been all but
concluded, a brief analysis of the general results of
these costly experiments, so far as relates to the fir.
ing 'at Portsmouth, and from a non-professional
point of view, may be interesting. Before farther
noticing the general results at Portsmouth, it may
be as well to say a few words on the composition of
the special committee who have conducted the expe.
riments, and who have to present their report. The
question to be decided—the future armament of a
certain description of her Majesty's ships of war—
is a purely naval one, and yet the military element
predominates in the committee, and an officer of the
Royal Artillery is its secretary. In thus referring to
the committee none of its members can with justice
complain, for, as already stated, the question to be
decided on is one purely naval, and must have been
found by the officers of the Artillery, Engineers and
Infantry on the committee—not even excepting its
respected and energetic president, Major Gen. Ran.
dell Rumley—as profound a mystery as it would
have been to almost the veriest landsman, This spe-
cial committee, which have had now for some time
to conduct and have now to decide on a vitally im-
portant naval question,have been in fact an anomaly
from first to last, but they have certainly not been a
greater anomaly than the present laws and arrange.
ments which includes the armament of the navy in
the army annual estimates. These anomalies have
led to errors and confusion in relation to the outfit
of her Majesty's ships; have had a most prejudicial
effect on the important question of their armament,
and have very nearly rendered worthless the facts
obtained from the experimental shell firing by these
70 pounder guns at Portsmouth. Any assertion of
this kind must necessarily be supported by presumed
facts, and these facts can in the present instance be
indisputably cited without fear of disproof. In the
first instance the trials at Portsmouth have been
generally understood to be a trial of the Armstrong
and Whitworth guns and their shells as against an
enemy, whereas it has been in fact but a trial of
fuzes,and even then a lamentab:e mistake and failure.
If a comparative trial of the guns and shells had
been simply intended, the use of the Petman fuze
(the best known description of percussion fuze we
possess) would have given the required comparative
results, and results which might have been im-
plicitly relied upon for their correctness. Instead of
this course being taken, the committee unfortunately
allowed the fuzes to be supplied with the guns and
shell, and hence the trials degenerated into a
trial of fuzes, deposing the main features of the
trials—the merits simply of each gun and its shell.
To this serious deviation from the straight course,
which it must be supposed was laid down in the offi•
cial programme of the committee's duties, was after-
wards added the additional error, and consequent
confusion, of a wrong selection of the Whitworth
fuze for shell firing en ricochet. It is well known
that Col. Boxer has supplied all the fuzes for the
Whitworth shells,'or that they have been constructed
on a theory approved by that officer. These fuzes
we understand have been supplied of three diffe-
rent descriptions, as follows :-
1, Wood time fuze—To act as a perfect percus-
sion fuze, and also to stand ricochet firing.
2. Metal percussion fuze—To act immediately
after striking, or after a small interval, and to re-
sist ricochet on water.
3. Metal concussion fuze—To act on ricochet,
either on water or on land, and to accomplish this it
it has been made as sensitive as possible, and in.
tended to fire the shell on the latter striking the
water.

Now, it must be evident to a mind of the most
ordinary intelligence that Nos. 1 or 2 fuzes might
in all propriety have been selected by the Committee
for the Whitworth shell when the latter was fired
en ricochet, but that No. 3 fuze should not have
been used for the same purpose. The fact is, how-
ever, that No. 3 (specially constructed to explode
the shell on striking the water) was selected by
the Committee for ricochet firing, and if reference
is made to the returns of that firing it will be seen
at once what a prejudicial effect this course had

upon the action of the Whitworth shells. The
ricochet shell firing commenced from the Stork
gunboat over the Horse acd Dean shoals, off Ports-
mouth, on the 7th inst., and, firing alternately with
the shunt gun (the shell of the latter being fitted
with the Elswick experimental fuze), the results of
10 rounds fired from each gun gave the Whitworth
shell eight bursts on grazing the water, and the
shunt shell only one burst out of the 10 rounds. As
the object of firing over the shoals was to ascertain
whether the shells would withstand the: force
evolved by the contact with the water, without
bursting, it will be understood how really prejudi-
cial in the minds of the Committee this continuous
bursting of the Whitworth shells en ricochet must
naturally have been. On the 14th inst. this unto-.
tunate error in the selection of the wrong fuze for
the Whitworth shell was more forcibly illustrated
in the ricochet shell firing at the Alfred target ship
in Porchester lake. Of 10 shells fired, eight burst

on or after grazing the water (as intended by Col.
Roger), and two, which hit the ship direct, burst in
the ship. There were no means at hand for account-
ing for this apparently extreme sensitiveness of the
fuzes at the time, but now that the explanation is
given respecting the fuzes, the wonder that existed
in the minds of the Committee, that shells should
explode on their first or second graze en ricochet,
must vanish when it is found that the fuzes
with which they were fitted were " concussion
fuzes intended to burst on striking water."
The shells from the shunt gun burst in many ins
stances prematurely, but this is believed to have
been owing to a slight excess of sensitiveness, a
fault that could easily be remedied by the Elswick
Ordnance Company, and the more readily so, as the
fuze was experimental.
A comparative analysis of the effects of the Else
wick and Whitworth shells would have been most
interesting had they both been fired, as they should
halebeen• with the Petman fuze, or had the right
fuze—No. 1 or 2—been selected by the committee,
or their representative, for the Whitworth small
shell with its 2llb bursting charge produced results
which contrasted very favourably when compared
with the slitb bursting charge of the shunt, or 41lb
bursting charge of the wedge shell,:while the seven
21 inch shells from the Whitworth with their 51b
bursting charges created a greater amount of de-
struction in the Alfred target ship than any other
like number of shells fired throughout the whole
course ; but we understand these large shells, how-
ever effective they proved, were merely experimen-
tal, and will therefore not be allowed by the com-
mittee to join itiElle with the other shells in the offi-
cial report, which will be confined to the shells as
laid down in the programme. This course reduces
the competing shells to three kinds—the wedge,
with 411 b bursting charge ; shunt, with 41Ib burst-
ing charge ; and Whitworth, with its 2,-11b bursting
charge. The wedge and shunt shells woald most
undoubtedly kill and wound a greater number of
men on the gun-deck of an enemy's wooden ship in
action than the small Whitworth shell would under
like circumstances, owing to the fact of the Arm•
strong shell, with its greater diameter and nearly
double bursting charge, breaking into a greater
number of pieces than the Whitworth on
exploding, if any comparison is to be
based upon the rule that a shell's destruc-
tive powers must be measured by its bursting
charge. This rule does not appear, however, to
always hold good, for in several instances on board
the Alfred, Where solid timber was met with by the
shell previous to exploding, the Whitworth shell
•had exhibited a greater rending power than the
softer shell from either the wedge or shunt guns.
It would he futile to attempt any further com-
parative analysis of the Efftcts of the Armstrong or
Whits, orth shells on board the Alfred target ship,
for if the statement respecting the supply of three
descriptions of fuss for the Whitworth gun and the

selection of the " concussion,' fuze by some one for
ricochet firing is correct, then it becomes a grave
question for the consideration of the C, mmittee
whether the whole of the ricochet firing with the
rival guns has not thereby become nullified, and
whether it will not be necessary to &o over the
whole course again.

In the "independent" and "quick" firing the
difference in time between the Whitworth and
shunt (both muzzle-loaders) was too trifling to be
of importance either way, but the wedge (breech-
loader) was in advance of both the other guns in
point of time, and proved itself eminently suitable
for rapid shell firing at a ship's upper-deck gun,
for sweeping an enemy's works with shell in pass-
ing along the face of works on the shore, or in
forcing the entrance of an harbour. It is, however,
unsuitable as a main.deck gun, as three or four such
weapons fired on a ship's main-deck with any
rapidity would stifle all the ship's crew. It is also
a gun requiring considerable attention, its key, or
locking bolt; being a rather delicate matter in con-
nexion with its wedge pieces, and the latter being
also liable to work stiffly every 30 or 401•ounds,
from the certainty that the grooves in which the
wedges work must foul after a certain number of
rounds have been fired, a fault which can be tempo-
rarily remedied with a bucket of waterand wet cloth.
The fouling of the Whitworth vent we have fully
referred to in the trials, and it'will be sufficient to
remark further here that no difficulty whatever was
experienced with it in its after firing, when the
common.sense precaution of passing the pricker
wire through the vent was resorted to. In accuracy
of shooting, so far as this was tried in the indepens
dent firing, the Whitworth certainly beat both the
shunt and wedge gun, and in ease of loading it
almost, if not quite, equalled the ordinary smooth
bore. The Armstrong shunt and wedge guns are
as near perfection perhaps as shell guns as any gun
can possibly be rendered, if their effects are only
considered when fired against the sides of a wooden
ship. earthen parapets, wooden stockades, or any
other like yielding substance.
The Whitworth gun, with its large shell, pos.
sesses an equally destructive power with the shunt
and wedge guns against like yielding substances,
but with its small shell the other guns would sp.
pear to have the advantage, if the rule is to be
retained that the destructive power of the shells
must be reckoned in proportion to their bursting
charges. As a shot gun the Whitworth gun far
excels both the shunt and wedge gun.
Thus far the guns have only been spoken of in
relation to their effects upon wooden ships and
earthworks, &e. If they are considered in relation
to iron plated ships and iron plated fortifications,
the future fighting material of every first class
Power at sea and on their coasts, then it must be at
once admitted that these 70-pounder guns are as
useless as a schoolboy's peashooter.