The Sun.
London, England, 1864-12-10 00:00:00

(Cheers.) I have great hope in the present position of the
leaders of our party. Don't suppose lam eo sanguine as to
think our present Premier is likely to be very active in ob-

it was a moderate, measure of Reform. But that measure

was not successsiul, yet it was not defeated by any absolute

vote. Passive resistance was enough to kill it: It was with-

,aining a Reform Bill. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) We all

drawn. It foundered like some overladen barque heavily
labouring in the trough of a leaden sea, without breeze

know that Lord Palmerston has a wonderful past to look

back upon—a past in some respects a glorious one and

enough to fill its sails and to carry it home to port. (Cheers.)
Well, now, when that barque of Reform went down, how

greater than that of any other man now living ; but Lord
Palmerston is of that age, he has come to that time of life
when even he cannot look forward to a future. We have
other men in the Government who do look forward to

was the fact received and accepted by the country i We

discovered that we, even the more advanced Liberals in the

country at large—no doubt in this respect led astray by the
bidding of rival parties upon the question of Reform—had

a future. You saw how Mr Gladstone—(loud cheers)—last

session looked forward to a future. Mr Gladstone knows

been hugging ourselves into a false security and into a
delusive hope that we had been discussing and deter-
mining what we would accept, or perhaps I should
speak more accurately it I were to say what we would re-

he has responsibilities and hopes in the future before him.
(Cheers.) But he cannot do all. Reformers throughout

be country, do your duty, and you shall not be forsaken by

Mr Gladstone. (Loud cheers.) I will only detain you a
few minutes longer by two or three remarks on another

fuse, instead of determining to put our shoulders to the
wheel and to carry some satisfactory measure of reform;

branch of the subject, (Cheers.) I believe that we shall
have a Reform Bill; and I agree with Mr Leatham that
the danger is not so much that we shall have no bill, as
that we may have a bad bill, (Hear, hear.) We must keep

when all history ought to have told us that no such mea:

sure can be relied upon to be carried, save by the determined
and persistent exertions of those who are to profit by its en-
actment, (Cheers.) We who have seats in the House of
Commons have had to think much, and dopbtfully some-
times, but carefully, on the great question of reform ; and I

our eyes open and our hands ready to prevent what he calls
a pernicious compromise. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I urged

on working men to direct their attention to all discussions

;hink I may say, speaking for my colleagues upon the plat-
rorm, as well as for myself, that we feel our first duty to-

upon Reform that are taking place. You must not suppose
that because certain suggestions appear to be a mere specu-

lation that they will not be listened to. Those who have

night to be to explain to you as we see it, with ths utmost
possible clearness, what I will call the situation—what is
possible and what is necessary to be done. Now, we have
heard that reform is in abeyance. It is in abeyance, and yet
I agree with your chairman that it is a question which must

he power in their hands are very prone to try experiments,

and they will be only prevented trying them by finding
rom the earnestness of those concerned that they will not

be experimented upon. When we had the debate last sea-

come up again ere long as a leading question for Parliamen-
tary decision. I know it is said that prophets, to be safe,
should above all things avoid the element of time, and I will
do so. (Laughter.) But I think at least your children was
not far wrong in saying that there were many reasons.which
should induce one to imagine that the reform question can
hardly fail to be seriously raised at least in the Parliament
which is to succeed that which now exists. I assume with

sion, so excellently introduced by Mr Baines, I ventured to
say, in reply to an hon. gentleman who said that working
men were hardly fit to discuss political subjects, that I
should like to bring him to my borough and introduce him
to working men who would discuss political questions with
him. (Laughter.) It might have improved him, and might
have improved you also. I know you discuss several of those
ideas that are started in regard to reform, and I want you
to read a book on the subject written by Earl Grey, son of
tire Earl Grey who introduced the great Reform Bill, One

him that pledges will be again invited upon the question.

Now, I trust—and I conjure you as representing here a

Large constituency—l trust, in fairness to your representa-
tives, that no such pledge will be invited, and that no such

of his propositions is that the House of Commons should in
a measure elect itself, should cease to be a representative
body, and should become self chosen. I don't suppose for a

pledge will be accepted, unless you are prepare] to support
those from whom you invited that pledge. (Loud cheers.)

moment that such a proposition would gain much attention
(Hear, and applause.) Another proposition of his, and one

_ .
And I trust, too, that warned by the past, no candidate will
accept such a pledge unless he has determined, so far as in

which I conceive to be the most injurious that could be
brought forward, is that though working men should have a
share in the representation, they should have it as a class, I
hope that when the working men do obtain a vote they will

him lies, that his party shall redeem it. I think there has been
a fault, to speak freely, in out-ef-doors agitation upon reform
which it is necessary to avoid in the future. Meh have been
got together intellectually interested in the question of re-
form. But they have dealt with it rather sentimentally. if you
will allow me the expression, than in practical earnest. Their
mental satisfaction appears to have consisted in discussions
of programmes—whether you should start with a principle
or whether you should accept a compromise, and if a com-
promise, what compromise—. and then but too often our ex-
perience has shown us that the programme at length ac-
cepted has been, so far as all practical labour is concerned,
allowed to fall to the ground. Now, in my mind, such dis-
cussions continued too long are worse than a waste of time.
I say, let every man, and every association of men, declare
with the utmost freedom the utmost extent of their wishes
—but let them, at the same time that they speak openly
and think freely, also show that they possess judgment and
common sense. Let them recognise the fact that Reform
which is not revolutionary is necessarily progressive and
gradual, and that whatever their opinions may be, or my
opinions may be, the result inevitably is and must be cora-
promise—(applauee)—a poor and worthless compromise if
they refuse to assist in the work, but a substantial measure
of Reform, though still a compromise, if they will put their
shoulders to the wheel. I will go on to ask myself and you
what is the situation, what is the position of this question,

voto as Englishmen, and not as a class divided from their
fellow countrymen. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) There is an-

other proposition of Earl Grey's which does deserve some

consideration. It is what he calls the representation of mi-
norities. I wish working men would direct their attention
to this subject, and make their opinion regarding it known
to tho country, and especially to the House of Commons)

where it is certain before long to be discussed. Do not sup-
pose I commit myself to this plan. I see in it many dangers
It may make a minority in some cases a majority ; it may

give men with special objects, such as the Maine Law advo-
cates, more than their due influence; might make elec•
tioneering as complicated and difficult as bookmaking at a

race; but it is worth patient consideration by Reformers,

and especially by working men, because it is an honest
attempt to meet a danger honestly feared, and because,
at any rate, it is not unfair in principle. There is another
plan which is proposed, which is a most unfair one. It is

called a plurality of voting —giving one man more votes
than another because he has more money—just putting five
or six poor men together and saying they are only as good
as one rich man. I have cor•fidence in the people of Eng-
land that they will never adopt such a proposition. (Hear,

and cheers.) I have only to say, in conclusion, that I hope
the effect of this meeting will not end to-night, but that it
will lead to an active and efficient organisation on the ques-
tion of Reform. (Loud cheers.)
Sir F. CROSSLEY said that Mr Forster had dwelt a good
deal upon the want of good faith on the part of members of
the House of Commons. The same thing had been touched
upon by other speakers and writers on Reform, but in Eng-
land they did not adopt the Eastern mode—as Herod did,
for example, when he ordered all children under two years
of age to be destroyed, not only in Bethlehem, but all the
coasts thereof, in order to make sure of putting down the
Governor who was to be the ruler of the people of Israel.

with reference to the state of mind of those classes and 01

those men who will practically have to deoide the question
in the Houses of Parliament. I find now none hardly left

of that old, stern, bigoted, determined opposition to Reform,
as if Reform and Revolution were identical terms, which
characterised certain classes in the time of the former Re-

form Bill. On the contrary, I have found a general accept

anc of the notion that some extension of the franchise
mast sooner or later, and at no distant time, take place, and
that its effect must be to admit the working classes of the
country co some share, at least, of the franchise, But I think
I have perceived an inclination, not unnatural, on the part
of those who possess a monopoly, to put off that evil day,
and I am sure that I have found in their minds a fear that
they seem to have conjured up of being swamped—swamped
under the dead level of some vast overpowering new class,
which is to leave them no political existence at all. If these
observations be correct, you will see that the difficulties we
have to overcome are, first, a disinclination—l do not say
a bigoted opposition—and second, a fear ; and what I de-
sire to say to this meeting is this, that I think we, who
are members of the House of Commons, may be surely left
to deal with the rear; but that with the disinclination it is
you, you the outside public; and you alone, that can deal,
and you must deal with it by the force of a persistent and
overwhelming national will. (Cheers.) No man, no rea-
sonable man, desires a reform of such a nature that its
consequence should he thie—that the whole policy, the le-
gislation. the administration of the country should take its
tone from what may be called working-class influence alone.
There is not the remotest chance of any measure being even
introduced into the house, in which such a danger would
lurk. I am quite sure my hon. friend the member for Leeds,
who will speak after me, will have no difficulty in proving
the innocence of his progeny of any such danger or design.
And yet—and this is above all what I desire to impress—a
measure should it be forthcoming so moderate as to contain
no such danger, and as to be proveably free from any such
danger or source of alarm, will be worth your utmost sup-
port—for believe me no political proposition can be proved
more true than this—l address myself to the working
classes assembled here before me—that if you in the per-
sons of a portion of your class once gain a footing within
the pale of the franchise, you become a part of the consti-
tutional bo ly politic. Your political life may be said to have
commenced, and the futuro will depend entirely on the use
which you make of the vantage ground you have gained.
(Applause.) And not only will such a measure be worth
your support, it will, believe me, require that support if we
are to overcome the disinclination of which I have spoken.
In this respect your representatives are powerless. We who
are on board the ship may discuss the best course by which
arguei th e safetyou
of the port which we de-
sirea
to steer—we
omake—but my
it sfrom y
the outside public, that
must come the breeze to fill our sails—and it is you only who
can supply that necessary motive power, (Cheers.) Now)
my resolution says " that the present state of Parlia-
mentary representation, excluding as it does a large ma-
jority of the people from any share in self-govern-
ment, is most unsatisfactory and unjust:' And in my
opinion it is a condition of things Which cannot be allowed
to remain long, because it would be a discredit to statesman-
ship, as it would be a disgrace to public spirit, could it
longer remain. Let me consider for one moment the ques-
tion of the present state of the representation, in that re •
spect of it in which I confess that I have myself the most
interest—l mean with reference to the extent of the fran-
chise. The present franchise Stops almost exactly where a
class begins; whereas, its policy ought to be, if not to ob-
literate, at least to tone down and to confine the already too
strongly-marked distinction of classes, it seems as if it was
determined to stereotype them in the constitution of the coun-
try, The civilising social influences of late years have all
tended towards making less distinct and less offensively
marked these lines of demarcation between classes of society.
But the franchise seems to step in and to say they shall eon -
tinue, as far as our political system is concerned, as broadly
marked as ever, and we will compel the working classes in
this country, with all their growing power and conscious-
ness of power, and with all their increasing intelligence, to
think for themselves and to act for themselves exclusively
and narrowly, as a class apart, instead of thinking and of
acting for themselves as a great fraction of a country and of
a harmonising whole. (Cheers.) Previous speakers have re-
ferred to the manner in which the distress has been borne
by the population of Lancashire. I am almost tired of hear-
ing the praises of the population of Lancashire from men
who don't seem inclined to carry out those praises to their
logical results. (Hear.)
I was reading the other day a
speech of Sir John Kay Shuttleworth at the anniversary
meeting of the East Lancashire Union of Moohanies' Insti-
tutes. It was a speech full of interest, of information, and of
food for thought. It was a review of the progress of the
working population of that large manufacturing district
during the last fifty years. Now, I would defy any man to
read that page of history, as I would call it, without
feeling how immensely better is the present than was
the past of that class, and without feeling how great
is the future before them. Sir John Kay Shuttleworth
showed to us the progress material, intellectual, moral,
social, and I confess for one that I think any man reading
that as a page of history might expect that the next should
be the record of the willing admission of such men to take
their share in the rights and duties of citizenship in the coun-
try which is common to us all. (Loud applause.) I have
spoken of progress_of the immense progress of the working
classes of this country. I am alive to that progress, and
therefore it is not, so far as I am concerned, because of mis-
government that I would demand Reform. I do not say
that there is not always plenty for the Reformer to do—but
that is not the, true, that is not the logical ground upon
which to put your demand for Reform—because of that pro-
gress—because of that progress which has rendered it in-
evitable, and which proves it to be safe—and all the more
safe and all the more likely to fructify to the advantage of
the country, if it be willingly accorded. There aro men in
statesmanship who fear this progress —who call it demo-
cracy, and who would seek to stem its tide. But that de-
mocracy alone is dangerous which is a reaction against
gross misgovernment, and which has its stormy birth in
days of ignorance, of bigotry, and of oppressive rule. There
is nothing of that which we should anticipate, but increased
stability to the institutions of the country, and new power
and added lustre to our national life, above all and more
than ever before, a reuniting together of the bonds which
bind class with class, till the lines of demarcation between
them shall be lost in the harmony of the constitutional cdi-
fiee. (Cheers.) Aed when you ask for Reform, ask for it
recognising all the merits and all the benefits of the pre-
sent and of the past. Ask for it as a right, for it is a right.
But ask for it also as a duty. (Hear.) Make your claim
to the right of fulfilling all the duties of citizenship in a
great, free, and orderly community, and your claim will be
heard, For the times are ripening for that event ; its advent
is accepted in principle by the intelligence el the country,
and it needs but one thing more to secure its realisation,

They found a railway traveller who, in order secretly to rob
his fellow passenger, murdered him and threw him out of
the window. They did not eeize every traveller in order to
make sure of the murderer. They tracked him, if neces-
sary, across the ocean. They gave him a fair trial—if
guilty, he had to suffer for what he had done. The day of

judgment for the House cf Commons was at hand. (Laugh

ter.) The constituencies would soon have the whole matter
in their own hands, and it would be for them to look to the
pledges given in 1859, and to see how they had been carried
out. He could only answer fur himself. He should be very
sorry to have to answer for the Liberal side of the House
of Commons--(laughter)—but for himself he could answer
that not only since the general election of 1859, but since
that of 1852, to the best of his recollection, he had been pre-

sent in every division on the Reform question, and also on
the ballot. (Cheers.) He had voted in every case in favour
of the measures which had been proposed, with one excep-
tion, and that was Lord Derby's so-called Reform Bill of
1859. He went purposely from Yorkshire to hear Mr Dis-
raeli introduce that measure, and he stood up in his
place in the house, and told the right hon. gentleman that
in Yorkshire they would call it a great deal of cloth and
very little dinner. (Laughter.) It extended the franchise
to the glasses that now possessed it, and left the working
classes just where it found them. But as they were without
reform, it was far bet ter than having a bill palmed off upon
than to settle a question which it never could settle, (Ap-
plause.) It might seem an easy thing to be a member of
the House of Commons for 18 years, and to be in every
division on the Reform question and the Ballot, and so it
would if they divided first and discussed afterwards.
(Laughter.) But they had to hear the late arguments and
to wait till the small hours of the morning, and to find de-
bates continually adjourned. He had a very strong con-
viction in favour of Reform when he entered the House of
Commons in 1862, and since that time that conviction had
been strengthened. Since then he had seen the working
classes in prosperity, and they used that prosperity by or.
ganising industrial associations, establishing savings banks
and building societies ; and many of them had merged
into the middle classes of society. They had seen the
working classes in adversity, which they bore so nobly that
the stanchest Conservative might not now be afraid to ex-
tend the suffrage to the most intelligent of the working
classes. (Cheers.) He often thought it very singular that
men situated as he and the chairman were, with their capi-
tal invested for the most part in mills and machinery, and
employing large numbers of workpeople, should not be
afraid to extend the suffrage, while those whose property
was almost entirely in land should be their strongest oppo-
nents. Surely, if there was any disturbance in the coun-
try, their machinery and mills were of much more brittle
description, and were much more likely to suffer than the
land. (Cheer:,) The solid acres were not likely to take
to themselves wings and fly away. He could only ac-
count for it on the ground that he and his hon. friend
came more in contact with the masses, and knew better
their wishes and feelings. When he entered Parliament
he went with a very strong feeling against the landed
gentry, for he had found their opposition to Parliamentary
reform so strong that he thought they wished to keep the
working men down; but in conversing with many of them
he was bound in all honesty to admit he was much mistaken
—and here again it was because he had come in contact with
them. just as he had said they wanted to do with working
men, that he had got to understand them. They believed
that to extend the franchise to working men would not give
us as good laws as we now have, and that they were better
friends to working men than he was because, the laws being
bad, it was worse for the working men than for them.
Nothing was gained for a cause by denying to their oppo-
nents all credit to the ground which they took up. Since
the Refot m Bill of 1832 the advance of the country had been
most marked in the intelligence of the people; so that now
those intelligent portions of working men were far better
qualified to use the franchise than was the class above them
at that date. But it was said, if we were going on so weil,
where was the necessity for any change ? This reminded
him very much of the boy who was ridiculed by his fellows
because he had grown too large for his clothes, and when he
asked his father for a new suit fit for his larger size, was
replied to by the parent—" Thou cub, thou, what dolt thou
come crying for a new suit of clothes for, when thou has
thriven eo well in what you have.' (Laughter):lt was safe
to extend the franchise—and because it was safe, it was wise
and necessary. (Cheers.) Sir Francis, after urging the
necessity of including in any measure of Reform vote by
ballot, concluded by proposing—
" That the present state of Parliamentary representation,
excluding as it does a large mejority of the people from any
share in self-government, is most unsatisfactory and
unjust,"

Mr STANSFELD, who was received with applause, said—
The resolution, to speak to which I have been invited
to come here to-night, may be said to be the expression
of a political truism, for it is a proposition to which suc
cesaive Parliaments, successive Ministries, and both of the
great parties of the State have given their assent. The
two last Ministers— first a Conservative, and lastly a Liberal
administration—have brought forward practical measures of
Reform. The Conservative Ministry came into power by
what ono might call an accident in political warfare. With
them a measure of Reform was rather, I think, a Cabinet
measure than one expressive of tho wishes and the views of
their supporters. Their Reform Bill was accepted by their
followers as a party necessity. It was rejected by the House
of Commons. On what ground was that measure rejected F
It was explicitly upon the ground that the Liberal party
had already pronounced a more advanced scheme, and were
prepared to bring that advanced scheme forward again.
Well, we know that that Reform Bill was defeated by an
adverse vote, and that the Conservative Ministry dissolved
that House of Commons, and appealed to the country. You
had this Parliament returned, and as soon as this Perna-
ment met you had a vote of want of confidence moved, and
that vote of want of confidence was carried against the Con-
servative Administration. And thereupon the present
Ministry came into power, chosen by the Parliament which
had been elected upon tht.t question of Reform. In due
time they also brought forward their measures of Reform,
and I would say of it that it was at least a genuine, though

rHE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 10, 1864.