The Sun.
London, England, 1864-04-30 00:00:00

POLAND.

The Earl of DERBY said the noble lord who had just
taken his seat (Lord Stratheden) had a motion on the paper
with respect to Poland, the frequent postponement of which
had occasioned considerable inconvenience. It stood
now for Monday next, and he should like t , know whether
he intended to proceed with it on that day, or whether it
was again to be postponed.
Lord STRATHE OEN said he was only anxious that
the subject which stood for discussion in another place
should be considered there before it was taken up by their
lordships.
THE SEIZURE OF THE STEAM RAMS.

The Earl of DERBY rose to call attention to the pub-
lished correspondence between her Majesty's Government
and Mr. Laird as to the steam rams. His lordship, it would be
recollected, some time ago, asked the noble earl, the Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs, for certain copies of correspondence
relative to this subject, but that was refused on public
grounds. Shortly afterwards a motion was made for the
production of the papers in the other house, which were
produced. In reviewing the circumstances under which the
correspondence had arisen, he characterised the conduct of
the Messrs. Laird as everything that was commendable,
seeing that they had withheld nothing from her
Majesty's Government, while the conduct of the
Government, on the other hand, he considered
highly censurable, seeing it had been most unfair,
ungenerous, and he feared illegal. The noble earl
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs first received
information from the American Consul at Liverpool
respecting the rains on the 7th of August.
From that time to the Ist Sept. the noble earl seemed to
have been weighing the facts to see if he could find any
evidence to justify the detention of the rams. Pressing
letters had in the meantime been sent by the representatives
of the American Government, and on Sept. 3 the noble earl
was informed that one of the rams was almoat ready to
proceed to sea. He seemed to have made up his mind that
the rams should be stopped, and they were seized on the
sth of September, and no information to that effect was
furnished to Messrs. Laird until the 9th. He thought
those gentlemen had been badly treated in the matter, be-
cause they had done everything in the most open and un-
disguised manner. Before that time, however, a message
it appeared had been seat to the United States,
previously informing the Government that the rams
had been stopped, After this a correspondence ensued
between the Messrs. Laird and the Government, relative to
the persons fer whom the two ironclads were being con-
structed, in the course of which the Messrs. Laird said it
was unusual to furnish the names of parties ,or whom ships
were being built, bur, notwithstanding that, they at once
informed the Government that M. Brave, of Paris,
was the person for whom the vessels were constructed,
and accordingly a Government agent was at once de-
spatched to that gentleman in Paris, when he, with-
out the slightest reserve, showed that person everything
connected with the iron-clads, and he returned to London
and reported to the Government that he had concluded his
inquiry, and that all the matters connected with the owner-
ship of the two vessels was satisfactory. Indeed, her Ma-
jesty's Government were themselves so far convinced of
this, that in the latter part of the same month they treated
with Messrs. Brave for the purchase of the rams. (Hear,
hear.) However, to ge back to the dealings between the
Government and Messrs. Laird, on the 11th these gentle-
men asked permission to take one of the vessels on a trial
trip, promising that she should return to the fleet at Bir-
kenhead. On the 17th this permission was granted; but
on the 14th Messrs. Laird had received an intimation that
the rains were not to leave Liverpool until the Government
was satisfied with regard to their destination. That mea-
sure, he contended, was perfectly illegal. If the Govern-
ment had evidence to justify a seizure they had a perfect
right to make one. But they had no right to detain these
rams for an indefinite period on no definite charge, and, in-
et-ad of proving the guilt, to call upon the builders to prove
the innocence of their intended destination. Before the trial
trip could take place the Secretary of the Treasury, on Sept.
19, wrote to say that they could not allow it unless provi-
sion was made against a sudden seizure, which they heard
was in contemplation. Who was to seize her ? The men
on board ? But they were Mr. Laird's own men. Some
vessel lying at the mouth of the Mersey ? But at that
very time the whole Channel fleet was lying off Liverpool,
and a more unlikely time for such an enterprise could not
be conceived. (Hear, hear) However, on Sept. 21, Messrs.
Laird thanked the Government for the protection which
they had promised to afford them, although they said they
were unaware of the danger which was apprehended. At
the same time they stated that the trial trip would be de
fared in consequence of the crowded state of the river
But the permission to make the trip was certainly in
force until the 24th September, because on that day the
Foreign Secretary referred to in a letter to Mr. Adams.
On the 7th of October, however, the Foreign Secre-
+eery wrote to say that it had been necessary to take
additional precautions against her seizure. A body of
marines had been previously placed on board, and these
"Additional precautions' consisted in adding to them some
custom• house officers, (Laughter.) However, Messrs.
Laird made no objection to this additional protection which
was thus afforded against a danger which consisted in this,
that some band of men should force the gates of the dock
in which she was lying, should overpower the marines and
the police, and should carry off a vessel only partially fit for
sea from the middle of the port of Liverpool. (Hear, hear,)
On the 9th October the Government—not satisfied with
what they had done—wrote to say that they had ordered
the seizure of both the rams ; and in this letter they again
referred to the danger of the forcible abduction of one or
both these vessels. Messrs. Laird, in reply, expressed their
entire disbelief in the possibility of carrying out any such
plan of abduction in the port of Liverpool; and stated that
they hoped the Government would soon see the propriety
of removing the vexatious restrictions which had been placed
on their property. At this very time one of the vessels
was in Messrs. Laird's private dock, the entrance to which
was blocked up by a caisson, and which a ship could only
enter or leave for about an hour near high water. It was
absurd to suppose that there could be any danger of a vessel
in such a position being carried off by violence. (Hear.)
It appeared from other correspondence that the danger of
whicn her Majesty's Government were apprehensive when
they took such extraordinary measures for the protection of
the rams, was the arrival in Liverpool of some seventy men
belonging to the Confederate ship Florida. They appa-
rently feared that these men would endeavour to seize the
rams; nor could there be any doubt that they were sincere
in the apprehensions they expressed, because, when the
Channel fleet left Liverpool, they not only ordered the
Majestic and the Liverpool to remain behind, but they
sent the ironclad Royal Consort round from Plymouth in
a half-finished state, so that she nearly foundered in the
Irish Channel, and certainly never reached Liverpool. And
now as to these seventy men from the crew of the Florida.
They came not in an organised body; they were not even in
the Confederate service; on the contrary, they had been dis-
charged at Brest, and they came to Liverpool to obtain pay-
ment of their wages. Having been refused by a firm to
whom they applied, they sought the assistance of whom ?
Of the -Waited States consul ; and this consul took up their
case, and his attorney brought an action on their behalf
against a firm on which he considered they had a claim.
The latter at first disputed their liability, hut, after some
communications with France, they consented to pay. The
men were paid on the 13th of Octobet, and then these men,
who were supposed to be meditating this desperate enterprise
on behalf of the Confederate Government, dispersed in vari-
ous directions, declaring emphatically that they would never
re-enter the Confederate service, in which they had been so
scurvily treated. And these were the men who had thrown
the Government off their balance, and caused them to take
precautions against dangers which never existed in the
slightest degree. (Hear, hear.) On the 27th Messrs. Laird
'ere told that the vessels had been seized, on account of a
violation of the Foreign Enlistment Act, that their men
roust leave them, and that they would be towed out into the
u,a'way of the Mersey. He must say that the latter was
tee most extraordinary step ever taken for the protection
veeeels which it was supposed were in danger of being
seized—to take them from closed docks into an open tide-
way, 31"eues. Laird protested against this measure, on the
ground of the danger to their property; but the Govern-
ment insisted, and
with some difficulty, atter soma delay,
the vessels were towed out into the Mersey. On the 29th,
Messrs. Laird again wrote to the Admiralty, the l'oreign
Office, and the Treasury, protesting against the whole of
these proceedings,
and stating that they held the Govern-
moot responsible for the large pecuniary loss arising
from these arbitrary proceedings. The Admiralty
forwarded the letter w. h
- they had received to the Foreign
Office, and the Foreign ()Mee forwarded both letters
to the Treasury, which took no steps weatever. The noble
earl then referred to some subsequent correspondence be-
tween Messrs. Laird and the Government with respect to
ehses
re
el sr se
aoi unledd be
by
rtehmeov ed
the insurance of the rams, and stated that, on January 12,
Messrs. Laird proposed that
atuhde vt
into the Birkenhead Docks,
Go-
vernment under an armed guard. They stated that they
asked this in order that they might be enabled to complete
their contract; and it certainly showed their consciouseese
of their own innocence when they were found willing to
add considerably to the number of vessels which would
be liable to seizure if an illegal destination was proves
against, them. But this moat reasonable proposal wee
also refused by tee Goeernment, and refused without ally
reasons being given. Nor was it, until the btu of Frbru,tr,
thai, Me era. Laird, in reply to tneir rep, ated qtreetiere

when the case was likely to be tried, were informed that an
information would be filed in a few days, and that it would
probably be necessary to send a commission abroad to take
evidence. So that it was then actually proposed to end out
a commission to take evidence against vessels which had
been seized four months ago, and had bee illegally de-
tained a month previously. It was his fire I elief that no
information would have ever been filed if it had not been
that Parliament was meeting on the 4th February, and if
Mr. Adams bad not in the latter part of January forwarded
to Earl Russell the forged despatch of the Confederate Se-
cretary of the Navy, intimating at the same time the opinion
of his Government that this document ought to put an end
to any lingering doubt as to the destination of the steam
rams in the Mersey. At this document Earl Russell eagerly
snatched; he stated to Mr. Adams that he quite appreciated
the importance of the admissions it contained; that it showed
what the Government were previously aware of, that Con.
federate agents were studiously endeavouring to violate her
Majesty's neutrality, and that the Confederate Government
would be informed that such conduct could not be tolerated.
But although this clumsy forgery took in her Majesty's
Government, all those persons in England who knew any-
thing of the Confederate States and their Government saw
at once that it was a fabrication. Had it not been for the
receipt of this document, he did not believe that any infor-
mation would ever have been filed, notwithstanding the
meeting of Parliament. For not only was the noble earl,
but the Atternoy-General also, jubilant at the conclusive
proof which they thought they had procured of the vali-
dity of the charge which they had made against these rams.
He could not consent to pass this matter over in the light
and frivolous manner in which the noble earl the Foreign
Secretary had alluded to it the other night. It was not a
trifle that a document should he forged—that it should
be transmitted by the Federal Secretary of State to his
ambassador in London, and be by him made the founds•
tion of a remonstrance with her Majesty's Foreign Secre-
tary. Was Mr. Seward justified in forwarding such a
document without having ascertained in the most conclusive
manner its authenticity ? He did not charge Mr. Seward
with being the author of the document; but it was extra-
ordinary that it was in the columns of the New York Times,
which was under the control of Mr. Seward, that the entire
document first appeared, He could easily have satisfied
himself as to its character; and he certainly ought not to
have used it until he had satisfied himself that it was what
it pretended to be. He was certainly disappointed that
they had not heard from the noble earl any expression of in-
dignation against the manner in which he had been imposed
upon ; nor, so far as he knew, had either Mr. Seward or
Mr. Adams apologised for the extreme credulity, to say the
least, which they had displayed, and .which led them to
make such unfounded representations to her Majesty's Go-
vernment: The noble earl concluded by saying that ho
had not brought this motion forward with any desire that
our neutrality should be evaded or infringed; on the con-
trary he desired that our laws be fully respected. But, on
the other hand, he desired that the Government should not
deprive her Majesty's subjects of that protection and that
justice which they were entitled to by the laws of the coun-
try. He concluded by moving for the production of the
correspondence between the Government and Messrs.
Laird.

Earl RUSSELL censured the conduct of Earl Derby, in
bringing forward a question which would form the subject
of a trial within about a month. He contended that the
noble earl had made no case of illegal action against the Go-
vernment. But before proceeding to discuss that, he would
ask the house toaasent to two propositions. First, that they
seers desirous to maintain peaceful relations with the
United States ; and secondly that the Messrs. Laird had no
right to go to war with any Power at peace with England.
And yet it was nothing but the vigilance of the Govern-
meut—their over-vigilance, the noble earl said—which hail
prevented these "respectable" shipbuilders from involving
this country in a war with the United States. After ad-
verting to one circumstance under which the Foreign En-
listment Act was passed, and citing its preamble, the noble
earl said that there could hardly be a greater crime than to
commit acts which endangered the peace and tranquillity of
this country, or, in other words, involved us in war with a
Power with whom we were previously in relations of amity.
The Confederate States, naturally enough, had sent out
agents both to England and France, armed with the means
of having ships built, in order that expeditions such as the
Foreign Enlistment Act prohibited might leave the English
and French ports, in order to make war upon the United
States, This was clearly proved by the evidence in the case
of the Alexandra. But, although ha did not feel any sur-
prise that the Confederate States should endeavour by all
means to establish their independence, ho did feel surprised
that British subjects, forgetting their duty to the Crown
and the obedience they owed the law, should engage in these
undertakings, looking to nothing but the means of placing
this country at war with the United States. He confessed
that he was anxious to deprive the United States of any just
cause of war against us, and he thought that he had been
amply justified in the steps which he had taken with a view
to that object. Tie was quite satisfied that these vessels
were intended for the Confederate States. They were by
their build and construction vessels of war, which could ho
at once employed to destroy any of the United States vessels
engaged in Llockading the Southern ports. The Govern-
ment, knowing their capacity for this purpose, thought it
their duty to make the fullest inquiry into their intended
destination ; for they knew that Captain Bullock and other
Confederate agents in this country had procured ship-
builders both in the Mersey and the Clyde to lend them-
selves to their projects. One of these shipowners had,
indeed, been prosecuted by the Lord Advocate, and had
since pleaded guilty. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl had
censured hint for having detained these vessels before they
were seized; but he was quite ready to take the full re•
eponsibility of that step, which he believed was requisite
for the fulfilment of our international obligations and for
the preservation of peace. If the Home Secretary had
heard, on information which he believed, that a treasonable
plot was bring concocted, he would not hesitate to arrest
the supposed conspirators. And he believed that, as
Foreign Secretary, he was equally bound to watch over the
peace of the country, and to take steps for warding off any
danger with which it might be threatened, The noble earl
had also censured him for taking steps to prevent this ex-
pedition from sailing. But if a number of rams had left
this country and had broken the blockade of the Southern
ports, how would it have been possible to deny that we were
making war against the United States under the guise of
neutrality, and against the provisions of our own Foreign
Enlistment Act? And who were the Messrs. Laird, that
he should be expected to repose implicit confidence in every
statement that they might make ? Why, they were the
builders of the Alabama. The noble earl then read, from a
pamphlet written by a Confederate officer, an account of the
fitting out, equipment, and sailing of the Alabama, calling
especial attention to the fact that she had left Liverpool
under the pretence of a trial trip. And then (said Earl
Russell) the noble earl oppcsite spoke for an h ur against
the illegality and oppressiveness of hie being suspicious of
a vessel built by the Messrs. Laird, which was clearly in-
tended for war, and was able to act with great, effect against
an enemy, and naked why he did not take the assurance
which these gentlemen were ready to offer him. Ho would
not go through the correspondence between the Govern-
ment and the builders, but he would say that every step he
had taken was taken under the advice of an officer on
whom he relied. And he believed that if it had not been
for the precautiens the Government had taken, the rams
would have been taken away, and that they would
have been manned, in part at least, by the former
crew of the Florida. It might turn out that these
vessels were built by M. Bravel in order to make war or.
his own account, But he did not believe anything of the
kind; and at all events he was quite satisfied that under
the circumstances there was such a case of suspicion as
amply justified and, indeed, called upon the Government
to detain them. He would not go into the facts which would
be adduced on the 'dial, and which, he believed, would
satiny a a jury of the belligerent destination of these rams.
But he would say that, having before bias the facts and the
information whittle he had, he would have neglecting his
duty if he had not taken steps to prevent any violation of
the Foreign Enlistment Act. He thought this country
was especially bound to observe a strict and faithful neu-
trality in the war between the United and Confederate
States. For his own part he had never been able to sym-
pathise strongly with either party, but it was to be hoped
that its result would be the emancipation of the 4,000,000
of negroes now held in bondage. But that this should
be the case, it must be left to the two contending parties to
work out this problem by themselves ; and he should regret
if this country were compelled to interfere in the war, and
thus, it might be, prevent the realisation of that great an-
vantage and blessing, which he trusted Providence had in
store for us, as some compensation for the miseries and suf-
ferings of the present struggle.

Lord CHELMSFOItD said the noble earl had no right
to issue orders for the detention of the vessels until satis-
factory evidence had been brought forward to show that
their destination was the Confederate States. Her Majesty's
Government had committed an illegal act when they
ordered the detention of the vessels, and threw upon the
accused parties the task of proving their innocence. If
there were no evidence that the ships were being equipped
and tinted out for the service of a foreign Statettlie Govern-
ment ought to have held their hands until they obtained
sufficient evidence to justify the seizure It was an extra-
oruinary thing that whenever any act had been done in re
bard to the Meyers. Laird there had always been 8012.10 pre-
vious letter on the part of the American Minister urging
her Majesty's Government to action. In fact, the conduct
of the Government towards the Meese. Laird had been un-
just, arbitrary, and oppressive throughout.

The Duke of ARGYLL expressed astonishment that
his noble aid learned friend who had just sat down should
have spoken in such strong terms of a matter which was
subjudice at the present moment. The conduct of Messrs.
Laird had been by no means frank and open as the noble
lord who introduced the question assumed; on the con•
trat y, their conduct was not in accordance with their duty
as subjects 01 the Crown, nor with what other persons had
considered to be their duty under similar circumstances.
There was no nation under the sun which had so much
interest as Great Britain in maintaining the obligations of
neutrality, and it was quite as much the interest of the
.aPreentile clai.ses as of the Government that the principles
...tf int• rnational law should be upheld. In the wh,le course
these tranaacious the Gov..rtint. ut, by doing all the;,
~aid to st-rp these v, ssels, had b,,n pprfnriainß the ill '-'

solemn obligation which lay upon them as Ministers of the
Crown.

Lord DERBY said he had moved for the papers for the
purpose of raising a discussion on this important subject.
The motion was withdrawn accordingly.
HIGH COURT OF BOMBAY BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening.
The SPEAN.ER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Hedon and Patrington Road, Newport and (Monmouth-
slurs) Turnpike Trust, and North Eastern Railway (Addi-
tional Powers).