The Sun.
London, England, 1864-10-17 00:00:00

Conservative Politics at Portsmouth.

Sir James D. H. Elphinstone, M.P. for Portsmouth, on
Thursday was entertained at a banquet given by his friends
and supporters at the North-end Gardens Pavilion, near
that town. The building was gaily decorated with flags of
all hues and devices, and the walls were liberally sprinkled
with sentences having a loyal or Conservative meaning.
Seats were provided at the tables for 460 persons, and but
very few were left unfilled. Sir James Elphinstone, ac-
companied by Admiral Sir John D. Hay, M.P., Hon
Ralph Dutton, M.P., Major• General Sir Frederic Smith,
M.P., Mr Kinnaird, M.P., Hon T. Bruce, and other gen-
tlemen, and by the managing committee, entered the
building at half-past six o'clock, and was received with
vociferous cheering. Mr Seymour Fitzgerald entered some
time afterwards, and was received with another burst of
cheering from the meeting, as one of the acknowledged
chiefs of the Conservative party in the Lower House of Par•
liament. After the toast of " The Queen," " The Prince
and Princess of Wales and the rest of the Royal Family,"
had been given, the chairman (Mr Alderman H. Ford)
read letters from Mr Disraeli, M.P., Lord H. G. Lennox,
Sir W. J. H. Jolliffe, Lord Stanley, and the Earl of Hard-
wicke, expressing regret at being unable to attend, &c., and
the business proper of the evening then commenced with
the chairman giving the toast of " The Navy, Army, and
Volunteers."
Sir J. D. HAY, in responding to the toast for the navy,
after referring to his command of her Majesty's ship Vic-
tory at Portsmouth, some ten years since, and paying a
graceful compliment to tir J. Elphinstone for the manner
in which he had discharged his duties as the representative
of a great naval port like Portsmouth, said that the country
might now, as on all occasions hitherto, depend on the
bravery of our soldiers and seamen; but with regard to
the navy it was impossible, without having a sufficient
number of seamen always on hand, to man our ships, with
suitable ships to place them in, and with suitable guns to
fight those ships, for our officers and seamen to do justice,
if the country found itself involved in war, to the ancient
renown of the navy ; nor could the navy ever become
what it really should be until affairs were changed and
the reins of goYernment at the Admiralty again placed in
Conservative hands. After refering at some length to the
arrior and Black Prince having been commenced during
the Conservative regime and contending that Whig admi•
nistration at the Admiralty had since then retrograded in-
stead of progressing, Sir J. Hay referred to the Royal Sove-
reign, and said that it had become an acknowledged fact
that guys of 12 tons weight, capible of burning large
charges of powder, and throwing 300 pounder steel shot,
were now a necessity as the future armament of the navy.
Capt. Coles had shown the world in the Royal Sovereign
how these guns could be carried at sea and fought there by
his clever arrangement of his turntable turrets, and had
been enabled to exhibit afloat and to the Channel fleet the
ship fitted on the plan he had invented. Capt. Coles's plan
and the Royal Sovereign were, however, disagreeable
to those in office. Seamen were wanted for a wooden
three-decker, the Victoria, a vessel only fit for
duty as a floating hotel for some old Admiral, who
would be much better at home in his easy chair than in
presumed command of our Medite ranean fleets, and the
most effic'ent ironclad the country possessed had accord-
ingly been paid out of commission.

Sir F. SMITH, in returning thanks for the army, said the
soldiers in the British army were now much better treated
and trusted than they were a few years back ; their moral
condition was being greatly improved, and he trusted that
in a very short time the stigma of flogging would be finally
abolished from the list of army punishments. He looked to
the British navy rather than the army as the country's
main stay of defence, and that day in company with Sir
John Hay, had visited the Royal Sovereign, and was com-
pletely astonished at the course the Admiralty had thought
fit to pursue with regard to that ship ; and so soon as Par-
liament again mot, if no abler member than himself came
forward, he intended bringing the subject before the
House of Commons and demanding explanations from the
Government, In referring to the introduction of improved
small arms into the army, Sir Frederick deprecated in
strong terms the adoption of the Prussian needle gun, or
any other ideas from " that country."
Sir JAS. ELPHINSTONE,in responding to the toast of the
evening, " Our guest. Sir Jas. Elphinstone," after thank-
ing the meeting for the warm reception accorded him, said
that he could only attribute that reception to their apprecia-
tion of the course he had on all occasions honestly endea-
voured to follow as their member in the House of Commons.
When he first came to Portsmouth to solicit their suffrages
it was the first time he hal been near the•town any further
than having seen it as he had years ago lain windbound with
his ship on the mud of the Motherbank. Since his election
as member for Portsmouth his career was before them ; he
had always endeavoured to do his duty, and had studiously
avoided taking part in the discussion in the House of any
subject which he did not understand professionally, being
more of a seaman than a politician. The navy was the
chief arm of the country's defence, and he had always been
anxious to strengthen it in every possible way, knowing
that on it the greatness of England depended. Great
changes had come over that navy, When, as a youngster,
he first went to sea, the old Hyperion frigate was one of
the most efficient vessels in the Channel fleet of that
day, and it would be of interest to any one to look
back to that time and examine what then formed the navy
of the country, and then compare it with the navy of the
present day. Steam had nearly superseded canvas; the old
wooden sailing ships of war had been succeeded by the im-
proved wooden steamships of war ; these latter, in their
turn, had been succeeded by iron and ironclad ships; and
the latter were now being succeeded by a new form of iron-
clad (the turret ship), which would as certainly supersede
the present broadside-gun ironclads as the latter had super-
seded the wooden steamships, The country had at one time
been in possession of the services of men of a highly edu-
cated and talented school who could design and build ships
that were really of service. Now, the country had a chief
constructor of the navy, who, leaving the old and safe paths
behind him, had launched on a course and produced vessels
which had proved a failure. 'The turret principle had been
tried to;a certain extent ; it had survived those trials, but
it had met with official discouragement. On its first
introduction it had been thought so satisfactory by
all competent judges that the Government could not
discard it. But what did they do ? They took
a class of ship unfit for the purpose, cut her down and
converted her, and then commissioned her by a most dis-
tinguished officer. In three months the Royal Sovereign
was a pattern ship for the British navy, and than she was
ordered to be paid off. The ship had been seen by Admiral
Dacres and the Channel fleet, for Sherard Osborn had
visited the fleet off Portland, steamed his ship round and
round the Edgar, and no doubt Admiral Dacres blessed his
stars that the Royal Sovereign was not an enemy. When
Parliament next met he (Sir James) pledged himself that
the true reason of the Royal Sovereign's being put out of
commission should be brought before the House of Com-
mons, the matter thoroughly sifted, and the Government
be compelled to show whether or not it arose from political
motive. Next, speaking upon the Dano•German question,
Sir James said that Nelson's ships went to Copenhagen
without steam in March, 1801,and surely Admiral Decree'
fleet could have reached Copenhagen with steam in 1861
The hon. gentleman spoke at considerable length upon
various subjects, including the recently-passed Chain Cable
Testing Bill, and in speaking of India, formerly ruled by
the Hon. Company, and now by the Crown, said the Minis-
ter invariably produced his Indian budget in the House of
Commons just at the end of the session, and hurried it
through the house in two evenings. When Parliament
next met measures would be taken to induce the Govern-
ment to present the Home and Indian Budgets together, so
that a full and fair insight might be obtained into the
finances of the empire. Sir James concluded a long address
amid loud and repeated rounds of applause.
Mr SEYINIOUR FITZGERALD, in returning thanks for
"The House of Commons," referred in eloquent terms to the
services of Sir James Elphinstone as a member of the House
of Commons, and said no man could feel it otherwise than a
great honour to have his name associated with the toast of
the British 'louse of Commons. The House of Commons had
certainly been imitated in other countries, but there it was
deformed and stunted in its growth. In this country it
had been carefully reared by the exertions of others before
us, and it fl marished in all healthful luxuriance. He wished,
therefore, to thank the meeting most cordially for the toast
of " The House of Commons," and for the manner in
which they had received his name as coupled with
the toast, but this personal reception he believed was
owing rather to the position he occupied in the great Con-
servative party than to any merits of his own. For some
years that party had sat on the left of the Speaker, but it
might be said by them, "The Ministry is there, but the
Government is here." In the Danish difficulty the Conserva-
tive party had challenged the conduct of the Government
on that question, and although the decision of the House of
Commons was adverse to the Conservative party, he could
assert that public feeling throughout the country was with
the Conservative party on that ques' ion. The tone of foreign
journals and opinion abroad with reference to the conduct
of the British Ministry on the Dane-German question had
compelled that challenge to be given. It had been said that
the question between the two sides of the House of Com-
mons on that occasion was peace or war, but he contended
it was nothing of the kind. It did not rest with England,
any more than the other great powers of Europe, to enforce
the obligations of a treaty, If Europe combined did not en-
force those obligations, so much the worse for Europe, and
the time would come when the course which had been taken
in this matter would be deeply felt and regretted. This
country never ought to have held out menaces on the one
hand and promises on the other, then eventually drawing
back and enabling the spoiler to declare to all Europe that
he had carried out his will in spite of the resistance and
power of England. It was now sail that for the future
England was to remain in a state of isolation, but no one
would believe in such a theory. So long as Englishmen
retained their true character they would never fail in ex-
pressing their feelings, and taking that high course which
became England in the career of nations. The cry of the
Liberal party in the house had been " Peace, Economy, and
Reform." Peace, he asserted, had not beenobtained without
dishonour. Reis enchment—true retrenchment—was a fea-
ture of the Conservative rather than the Liberal party. As
to reform, Lord J. Russell had told the house to "rest and
be thankful," and since then the question had slumbered
under the Ministerial benches, possibly reserved as a party

cry on the part of the Ministers to retain power. The
remedy, however, lay with the electors who in return-
ing Conservative members to represent them in the House
of Commons, returned the truest friends in the country,
At the conclusion of his address the hon. gentleman was
greeted with loud and continued cheers.

The Hon. Ralph Dutton, M.P., the Hon. T. Bruce, and
others afterward addressed the meeting, which broke up at
a late hour.

Earl de Grey and Ripon on our Military

Expenditure,

The annual dinner given by the Mayor of Ripon to the
Corporation, the principal inhabitants, and other invited
guests, took place on Friday night in the Town Hall. The
Mayor, Mr B. P, Ascough, presided, and was supported by
the Earl de Grey and Ripon, Mr J. Greenwood, M.P., the
Very Rev, the Dean of Ripon, &c.

Earl DE GREY and RIPON, in rising to respond to the
toast of "Her Majesty," was enthusiastically received. He
said that, as one of her Majesty's Ministers, he should not
wish for a better eulogy than that which had been passed
upon the conduct and policy of the Government in the
speech of their friend Mr Woad, who had been good enough
to propose that toast. He valued that eulogy the more hee
cause he knew that it had been spoken with perfect sin-
cerity, and without the slightest attempt at concealment of
those political d fferences which separated him (Mr Wood)
and the members of her Majesty's Government. But he
should be very wrong if he interpreted that expression of
feeling in any party sense, or made any attempt to wrest it
on an occasion like that for any party purpose. Having to
return thanks for that toast, edged round with such restric-
tions as that which struck off from it all party considera-
tion, he found himself standing in that room in a somewhat
difficult position, because it was not many days ago since in
that same room he had returned thanks for the same toast.
Now her Majesty's Ministers could not sing one song in the
beginning of October and another song in the middle ; there-
fore he found himself in this position,that in the same room,
and addressing, to some extent, the same audience, he was in
danger of making the same speech. Perhaps,therefore, leav-
ing those generalities of politics on which he then touched,
they would think he was not going beyond the just limits
of the occasion and of the toast if he said something in re-
gard to the course which had been taken by her Majesty's
Ministers, and the spirit in which he, as their representative,
had acted in the department over which he had been called
upon to preside. (Hear, hear.) That department had during
the last few years undergone very great improvements. He
might speak freely of them, because they had been the work
not of himself. who had been only a short time in the post
of Secretary of State for War, but of those iistinguished and
eminent men who had preceded him in that office. (Hear,
hear.) He thought it was not a bad thing that from time
to time in every part of the country they should take stock,
as it were, of the action of our variout departments, see
what they had been doing, and what progress they had
made. There was one description of progress which had
been made by the War Department, which nobody disputed
and nobody liked, and that was progress in the shape of
increased estimates. We had to pay at the present moment
for our militate' service much more than we paid a few years
ago. In the year 1853 the total cost of the army estimates was
a little over £10,000,000. The army estimates which it was
his duty to present to Parliament this year were £14,803,000;
the army estimates which were presented to Parliament in
1861-2 were a little over £16,000,000. £16,000,000 or nearly
£15,000,000, as it was now, was an enormous sum; and when
they saw that in the short space of nine years the army
estimates had grown from £10,050,000 first to £16,000,000
and then nearly £15,000,000 in a time of peace—all the
three mentioned being years of peace—they had a right to
ask what had happened in the interval, what was the cause
of this very considerable and important increase. Now what
had happened in the interval ? Why, a great deal. Since
1853 they had had, in the first instance, a great war—the
Crimean war. What did that war show them? Why, it
showed the imperfect and inadequate condition in which
their military establishments were previous to that war,
A good deal of criticism was poured out at the time on those
who had the conduct of the war. He would not enter on
that ancient story, for the world passed so quickly that the
Crimean war was almost no le an ancient story, but this he
would say, in justice to those in authority—and he believed
the more truly that story was written the better would be
the justice which posterity would do them—that when he
had to do with the fitting-out of a far inferior expedition,
when there was no war but only possibility of war, the fit-
ting out of the expedition that took place to British North
America at the time of the Trent affair, he was bound
to say that he stood aghast at what must have been the
duties of those who had to send out the Crimean expedition
with the means that were at their disposal. It was the duty
of the Government then, it was the duty of the Govern.
ment now, and would be the duty of every successive Go-
vernment to see we do not fall back into that condition, to
see that if we had an army—and we must have an army—
it was maintained in an efficient state—it was ready to do
the work which it professed to do—work which, as far as its
spirit, its courage, and its valour went, the British army
had ever been willing to perform. (Applause.) Well, then,
one result of that was an increased expenditure. Before
1853 we had no military train, no commissariat corps, no
army hospital corps. Our hospital arrangements, our medi-
cal arrangements for the army were greviously and sadly
imperfect. All these things had to be improved, and ire•
provements of this description cost money. Everything had
been done, and done effectually, but it had to be paid for,
The necessity of keeping a large force in India, in con-
sequence of the late mutiny, increased the cost of the army
and another source of expenditure was that we had been
gradually awakening, very rapidly of late years, to the
conviction that it was our duty. as a Christian nation to do
everything in our power to maintain the health, alleviate
the condition, increase the morality, and improve the intel
lectual development of the soldiers of our army. (Haar
hear.) After alluding to the steps that had been taken to
carry these improvements into effect, and mentioning the
cost of the militia and volunteers as an additional strain upon
the revenue of the department to which he belonged, his
lordship said that we lived in times of great mechanical
change. The days of Brown Bess and smooth bores were
over ; we lived in the days of Sir Wm. Armstrong and Mr
Whitworth, and in the days of rifled muskets and breach-
loaders. Nothing was more certain than that all improve-
ments of warlike material tended, not to war, but to peace.
Nothing was more certain than this, that the more perfectly
nations maintain their armies, and the more perfectly they
maintain their means of warfare, the less likely were they
to go to war. Men were always fighting in the days of de-
fensive armour, and when battles ended in very little com-
parative loss on either side. (Hear.) As to the question of
reducing the expenditure, he could only say thas while the
Government would b© blameable, they would be criminal if
they maintained any expenditure which could not be justified,
and which was not needed ; they would be more blameable
and more criminal if they reduced the army and navy to a
condition such as existed when the Crimean war broke out.
(Hear.) For himself and his colleagues, he would say that
everything would be done that could be done to reduce the
expenditure of his department. (Applause.) His lordship
concluded by thanking the company for the honour they
had done him.