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London, England, 1852-05-22 00:00:00

enable her Majesty to constitute such bishopric; and to
Pneibl a her Majesty further to sub.livide the diocese of
Ns Zealand.
Also, An Act to repeal certain disabilities under the
first of George the First, chapter thirteen, and the sixth
of George the Third, chapter fifty-three.
Also, An Act to authorise the grautin Of leases of
estates devised by the will of John Clarkson, , de-
Ceased, situate in the counties of Mtddlesex and Surrey.
Also, An Act to enable Francis Adams, Esq., or other
the committee of the estate of Mary Shute Adam's,: a.
person of unsound mind, for and in the mime and on
behalf of the said Mary Sbuto Adams,
to consent to the
exercise of certain powers contained in :tlie- marriav
settlement of the said Francis Adams, and in' a certain
Act of Parliament passed in the first year of' the reign
of her present Majesty, and to exorcise the'power of
appointing new trustees contained in the said settlement,
and for extending the powers of sale and exchange con-
tained in such settlement.
MILITIA BILL. _ „

The House then went again into Committee on the
Militia Bill.
Clause 25, being read, repealing so much of 42. George
111. as authorises the militia being drawn out and em-
bodied in cases of rebellion and insurrection,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Goverhment had considered this ciatie, which, with
the permission of the Committee, they postponed on the
previous night. The clause had been objected to by
a Member opposite (Sir H.s.Verney), and he was stip-
ported by others,
and there appeared to be a great eyns-
pathy with him also on that (the Ministerial) side of
the Bouse; so that there was a very preponderating
objection to the clause. Under these circumstances, the
Guvernment would not proceed with the clause.
Mr. BRIGHT suspected on the previous night that
the Right Hon. Gentleman had not then the slightest
intention of passing this clause. The Hon. Baronet (Sir
H. Verney) made some objection to it, and was followed
by a Member who lied some notice on the paper with
regard to it; and the Right Ron, Gentleman, without
waiting for anything like an expression ot Opinion on the
part of the Committee, rose either to withdraw or po'st-
pope it; he (Mr. Bright) thought be was about to with-
draw it, but he ended by proposing to postpone it.
Now, let the Home Secretary see the course to which he
was
lending himself. When he introduced the Bill he
referred to this clause and to the fact that the Govern-
ment-had-no-intention of increasing their military power
for purposes conneeted with the suppression of public
opinion here, but that the Bill was intended entirely for,
purposes of defence; and he relied on this clause also
when opposing the motion to alter the oath so as to limit
the service to England and Wales.—(llear, bear.) The
withdrawal of the clause was one of those tricks which a
Government not remarkable,foents straightforwardeefis or
character for aboveboard dealing had been playing. epee
the House for the purpose of obtaining their support to
this obnoxious measure. He (Mr. Bright) believed the
clause was not placed in the Bill with any intention to
carry it. It seemed as if the arguments of the Home
Secretary were to bo founded upon this clause with re-
gard to the character of the Bill, and then, when the
lime came, the clause might bo conveniently got rid of,
havin' served its purpose. The whole conduct of the Go-
vernment allowed it to be suspected, ho grieved to say
laugh)—that they had not dealt honestly and
openly with the House with regard to this clause. The
conclusion was unavoidable that Ministers had elides-
, 'retrofit to persuade the House that the object was to raise
. • 80,000 men for defensive operations only, when, in re-
se- • (they, it was as likely that what they meant to do was
„ to repress popular feeling, if they were bold aadsreek-
- • • leasoeoeugh to propose as a Government what they ad-
,.
vocsted in Opposition.
The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER said the
consolation of Ministers under the reproaches of the
se, Ron. Gentleman was, that the conviction of their truth
. Was not shared by any considerable number of Mem-
. s.
•-•bere. The fact that the Secretary of State argued from
• thieclause proved his sincerity. If he could have fore-
'seen That this clause would not have remained in the
he would not have founded en argument on its ex-
''' istenee. • His Right [-lon. Friend had given up the clause
With reluctance, when one who could judge of the teeepsr
of the House ot Commons must have seen on the subject
of the clause a very preponderant opinion. He (the.
Chancellor of the Exchequer), hardly remembered an
• • instance in which a similarity of opinion had been more
• ; • t general. As to the clause being the most important,
s• an important clause, he could not agree in thinking
it no.: •It might be important in the eyes of the Hon.
• rinatiewitio, who wanted to guard against some hypo-
thetical policy which he thought Ministers were going
, .to follow:- No doubt, if they had then the profound
. . prescience which the Hon. Gentleman had, they.
-might find even in the clauses of the Militia, Bill
agree support for a policy. But that, he (the Chancellor
• • oistile Exchequer) supposed, must be a play of the
stutters) fancy of the Hon. Gentlemate—(A laugh.) He
401144 thought the Hon. Gentleman's nearest neighbour
could have shared in that somewhat sour pleasantry.
'"'(Laughter )I It was not a single objection on that side
• 'etr the other which led' to the relitiquishment of the
Chinet• it was not resolved to withdraw it till the. G-
overnment were convinced that a majority of the Com-
' he 7 Plittee Were opposed to it. He had asked leave to have
the dense postponed; he had not taken the opportunity
• .* offered to him of moving its omission, but he had tried
to ascertain the feeling of the Committee, and ho was
le ,
, etelavinced it was utterly in vain to attempt to carry the
•, • :clause.
, •
Mr. M. GIBSON, reminding the Committee of a re-
" mark made by the Noble Lord at the head of the late
Administration, that no one knew so well as a late dis-
tinguished statesman how to dress up a case, expressed
the suspicion that this ° 1 e had
been put into the Bill
• to dress it up and give it Popular aspect. He felt, he
would oot say insulted, but treated rather lightly, in not
having the measure brought before the Committee in a
Keenly way. It was thought certain Members
~ • would be quieted if votes were given to the militia, and
_ • the militia could not be called out to suppress insurreo-
• plion. Ho did not want to be caught by these baits;
.3, were conceptions of the Government's own; but,
• having "induced Hon Members on his side to withdraw
. , &heir opposition on account of one of those propositions, he
• should say that the course pursued savoured a little of
, that peculiar' practice known under the name of jockey-
th leihi sometimes resorted to when it was impossible to
- • (care- e,
• a measure in a straightforward manner. Both the
propositional to which he had alluded were hammered
on the same anvil. He would ask what sort of insurrec-
ilon, whet species of popular movement, would call for the
use of those 80 000 men? Would it be a resort to arms,
or,publie meetings? He begged to inquire first, what
ZroOld be a legitimate occasion for calling out and em-
bodying that force? And, secondly, whether by law it
-• uld be necessary to call Parliament together and state
' eLl'a grounds for the procedure which, in the case sup-
szse • Posed, the Government would adopt?
-*'t ;Mr-CLAY had no doubt Ministers were strongly con-
inted that rebellion in this country was purely irapos-
'' - t hie. He did nen think the clause "
an important one;
. _ bat, since it had appeared, it was unwise to withdraw it,
• - I)ooatliie the accusation brought against the Government
'would be repeated in a form in which it was more likely
, ~'&0 be heliefed than in the Home of Commons,
"e.
„'air. J. BELL could not believe there wag any inten-
t &Lou of trickery on the part of Ministers in proposing
andevithdrawing this clause. But he 'thought it unwise
,oterefollow the example of `continental kingdoms which
• , -Preserved order only by armies.
•• • MOFFATT• had viewed the clause with - satis-
faction as showing that the Government did sot look
to the possibility of a popular outbreak, but had confi-
d
en
ce
in the people. It had grown into an axiom that
-zeilitiemen were the last kind of troops that ought to be
' employed in patting down local' disturbances.
The ATTORNEY-GENERA.L, in reply to the ques-
tions of the Right Hon. Member for Manchester, stated
that the Chanceor of the Eitehequer•had very clearly
• stated what wasps object of the withdrawald of the
clause. The Committee must first e whether this
• clause should form part of the pal.seoefoereithe necessity
aids() for answering the Right
~,,licarrelenng to the definition of instirrecatonenl, btasucislte,esif
the which
struck n te. noduet
Part of the 42d
it.;:lvir,oeuildalbe unnecessary
tGoagoirvgeball. dtgwojetrineni and if the clause remained part of
the Bill, the occasion never could ariaeliwehednidtaheottllti:
on to provide the
would be called out for this service.
Act of
the clovernment ought to be
Right MO.
s parovidendtb
Gentleman with d
In regard to
meat ilteeth°antdicinualstei°ano'firtebellio-n, &c., it should be lawful
for her Majesty to employ the force, the occasion be in
, communicated to Parliament, if Parliameut were sittingg,
and declared in Council, if Parliament were not sitting,
• and also by proclamation.
• Mr. EVANS expressed his surprise that the Secretary
for the Home Department had not explained why the
clause had been introduced. A dissolution was approach-
,, tog. After stating what he conceived to be the motives
eyi,.'„Which first induced the Government to insert the clause,
o • tn.:14116n to propose to, withdraw it, the Hon. Gentleman
Fltclared his 'opinion to be that they who adopted the
,I,Vituse were right, and that those who objected to it were
• ` • - The withdrawal of the clause would excite the
emet Ptciou of the country.
_nett Yr. PACKE did not consider that the Com,meditttheee
the withdrawal
ateyeartgatbs,ingho.do..with the. motives which setae,
of ee, either in the introduction or
was it t°l4ttnet but he could not help asking of what 1169
° refer, the Bill to Committee if the Govern-
, ruent were a
• mr, eees 0 at liberty to amend it?
tion of the 42d
* said, that in comparing the 111th see-
the present 8. George lIL with the oath prescribed bny.
sietency.
to swear Bythatilit, there appeared to him to be an ince
this Bill the militiaman was called upon
Ringdo e would serve in any part of the United
just in Ent
but
bY
the
111th clause of the Act he had
tekeis hntioned it was provided that the forces should be
Was
o,lhto any pin of Great Britain—the distinction
Bereitrt°°6 between serving in ho United Kingdom and
Gellg in Great Britain.
'Te ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought the Hon.
tinsee
• the 54th had overlooked a more recent Act, that of
'Whichet of ,George lIL, called the Interchange Act, by
to the might be removed from one kingdom
seen,....nuere ,Eie would there find that the oath pre-
,e__ehu to the militiaman was the same as that which
wm.:l)llserted in the present Bill. •
vleistitT;tyG' TITO
•MPSON entered his protest against the
ram
takyeanithtwas
obtained upon this clause' n the sli-
night, as he considered it to have °c-
oon red under circumstances of a most extraordinary
allacracter. The Hon. Member addressed the House for
„ ensiderable i
amidst cont •
nuous cries ot " Ques-
tons,” Which made him wholly inaudible, in the gelletY•
Moir
/several ineffectual efforts to obtain• a hearing, he
Mefed that the Chairman report progress and ask leave
to sit again.
Mr. BRIGHT said
might be the degree that, whatever
it must be admitted
eittu
se itself, the fact of its h • introduced into
the •
Bill by the Government
of importance attached to the
eying been
...retro by the Government and then afterwards with-
make the clause. dose
ht was of sufficient importance
14.) k
—rririg'‘f•-lhe•ittention of the

s~ ~~
,?

•

ia~

•t

T H

-Committee. He hoped, therefore, it would be allowed
to be discussed with fairness and patience„ _
Mr. G. THOMPSON assured the Committee he did
not wish to trespass upon their attention byoud what
we's necessary for the expression of his honest opinion.
Th© Secretary for the Home Department had said that
tha.Chaneellor of the Exdbequer had withdrawn this
clause with reluctance. .':rho clause was one Which must
have occupied, the attention of the Ge,vernment, awl
could not have been ad6pted by them without the most
deliberate consideration and the most solid judgment of
its propriety. Now, what be wanted to know was, first,
what were the reasons which induced the Government
to'hatrcduee the clause into the Bill; and, secondly,what
were the reasons which had since induced them to with-
draw it?

Mr. WALPOLE said he would answer both the ques-
tions which had been put by the Hun. Gentleman, and
that with perfect sincerity. First, the clause was intro-
duced into the Bill because the Government thought
(arid none more strongly than himself) that they ought
not to raise by this Bill any other force than that of a
defehsive force---a force not to be used except to resist
foreign attacks., That ee
as the reason why tho clause
wets introduced into the Bill. He could assure the Com-
mittee that until they had come to the clause lasttnight,
he, for one, had wished to retain it, because ho
thought there would be a. great advantage in net
calling out the militia for the purpose of suppressing
any insurrection or rebellion that might take place;
but when the Committee came to the clause a strong
opposition was raised to it, not only by the Oppositioni:
side of the House, but by Hoc. Members on the sa
r'istetial side, and communications were made to the.
Government from all quarters respeeting it. H e could
assure the Committee that it was merely out of deference.
to what he believed to be the predominant opinion of the
Committee dist he had given up, and he would say re-
luctantly given up, this clause of the Bill.
Sir H. VERNEY wished to say that when he sug-
gested
last night that the clause should be omitted he
was surprised it should have met with so much approba-
tion on .both sides of the House. His sole object,
originally was to call attention to what be conceived was,
an interference with the prerogatives of the Crown.
'Mr. BRIGHT admitted that he had felt very wsrmly
on the subject, but, after the explanation which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had given, he begged to say that any-
thing which had fallen from him that could possibly
reflect on the honesty or sincerity of the Right Hon
Gentleman he most distinctly withdrew.
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the clause ... ... 61
Against it 151
Mejoeity--egainst the clause —9O
On clause 28 being brought up with amendments,
Mr M. GIBSON asked if Government were deter-
mined to adhere:to the exemptions of 42 George III.? If
they exempted the students of Oxford and Cambridge,
they ought to exempt the students of univetsities which
had started up since the passing of that' Ace Why were
—Mines watermen to be exempted? Really the exemp-
tions °tight to be adapted to the present day. He also
wished to know. what the Government meant by " a
poor man the father of more than one child born in wed-
lock." The deputy-lieutenants were to decide that
point, and it would be useful to them to know what the
definitioh of Government was.
Mr. E WART considered that Government had given
him a pledge on a former occasion that they would con-
sider the claims of the students of the London University
to exemption from service.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not consider
himself called on to state what a poor man was. It
was impossible to give a definition of the words " poor
man" which would apply to every part of the country,
because they formed a relative term, and he who was a
poor man in one place could not be considered so in
another. There must bo very considerable discretion
left with the deputy-lieutenantse and he had'great faith
that that discretion would be properly exercised.
A desultory discussion ensued, after whioh the clause
as amended by the Home Secretary was agreed to.
The RIGHT HON. GENTLEMAN then brought up three
additional clauses—the first prescribing that the quell&
cations of officers might be derived from personal as
well as from real estate ; the 2d, providing that a sup-
plemental corps might be raised by voluntary enlistment
in tote county to supply the deficiency in another
county; and the 3d, extending the time of appeal, and
increasing the number of places in which notices might
be given.
' These several clauses were agreed to and added to
the Bill, as was another brought up by the Attorney-
General exereptiog Quakers without property who- re-
fused to serve from being sent to the common gaols
Colonel SIIITHORP and Sir D. L. EVANS, who had
notices of clauses upon the paper, • the one relating. to
the qualifications and appointments of officere, and the '
other extending to this Act the exemptions contained-
in the 44th George lIL, c. 54, withdrew them upon the
understanding that the Government would consider them
Previous to the next stage of the Bill.
Mr. HODGES proposed a clause to follow 16, pro-
viding that in case of any volunteer or substitute being
found guilty of desertion he should be sentenced to
serve for the same period as if he had originally enlisted
therein in any of ,her Majesty's regiments stationed
abroad;
Mr. BERESFORD did not think the remedy which
the Hon. Gentleman had proposed was the best that
might be chosen for the evil to which he had re-
ferred. He did not think it was by any means a desir-
able principle that a man who had misconducted himself
in the militia service should be considered as fit for the
regular army. He thought that that would be a slur
upon the standing army which he was sure no Hon.
Gentleman would wish to throw upon it. Besides, if a
man had deserted from the militia in the third or fourth
year of his training, it would be hardly worth while to be
at the expense of sending him abroad to complete the re-
maining year of his service.—(Hear, hear.) Under
those circumstances, he hoped the Hon. Member would
withdraw his amendment.
The amendment was immediately negatived without a
division.
The preamble was then agreed to.
The House thereupon resumed, and
The CHAIRMAN reported that the Bill had passed
through Committee, with amendments.
The Bill was ordered to be read a third time on
Thursday next,
' NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.
.0n the motion that this Bill be read a second time,
Sir W. MOLESWORTH expressed his disappoint-
ment at the contents of the Bill. He was induced to en-
tertain a favourable impression of the measure by the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
for the Colonies, On looking-into the Bill he was sorry
to say that impression had utterly disaPpeared. 'ln The
first instance he objected to the 'Legislative Councils
being nominated. It appears that the Colony. siae to be
divided into two parts. Within the' English part of New
Zealand they were to have English laws. In the native •
part they were to have native customs and lawS, pro-
vided they were not repugnant to the laws of humanity.
With regard to the English part of New Zealand; a divi-
sion was to be made of six provinces, each of which was
to have all the incidents of complete authority.. The
superintendents of the different provinces were to have
the ordinary functions of a colonial governor, except
that they were.to be responsible to the governor iii chief,
and not to the Colonial Office. ItCrespect to the
provision of a period of two years being given, within.
which the assent of the governor might be ! given
to a measure, it was his (Sir William Moles-
worth's) intention to move an amendment in
Committee. The measure was of a most complicated
character. It would create several governors and se-
veral legislatures, each of which' might have a code
of laws of their own. How, thee, was' it possible
for any person to say what was the law of. New Zea-
land? The code of each province might be different.
He had no doubt but that the Parliament of New zea—
laud would till the statute hooks with Acts of the great=
est wisdom; but it did not follow that these Acts would
become law. These Acts might be repealed in three
ways. First, by a proclamation of the governor in
chief; secondly, by instructions from the Colonial Office
to the governor; thirdly, by an Act of the General As-
sembly at any time. And then again, this Act of the Ge-
neral Aesern bly might be within twoyears repealed. The
Bill was well calculated to create the greatest con-
fusion. In reading through thissßill, when they found
a clause containing a- liberal provision, they found
another that destroyed such provision' and then they
found a third that destroyed the destroyer.—(tanghter.)
There were to be two unhappy judges to administer
po w er
the laws. Surely if they required separate legislaturea
they ought to have separate judges. The provinces
of New Zealand should not be subordinate legis-
mine the_ salaries to be
fatness-they ought to be made municipalities,
to elect their own corporate officers, to deter-
class was frenay
paid to them, and to make bye-
lay". whose superintendents would be placed in the 11
position of pett d
tendents, be vyZe
he.spots. When he considered What that
which they were to select their superin-
many taxing Ofacerosnorfinced that they would be like so,'
were made subject
especially to a
to the worat description; unless they:
council. He felt convine
liens. Ho objected popular control by popular elec.-i
laednfdhat such nomination would
nominated legislative,
yet
iu any other Colony,.
objected ery strong feeling against
work worse in
inasmuch as there was there a
New Zaa
ctmheptaeltsn_swoof.
that would di-
the settlers.
it. He also strongly
land to the settlers. It was a aotondtth,eo grant of Crown
minish the value of the grant in
By this Bill the New Zealand
first charge upon all the lands of - Y
Nesw Zeaull-1 '
lcataie the
amount of ss. per acre. A gross injustice wlionulP the
be done to the settlers of New Zealand: Ere
miistthai
upon fn
fl'
House to protect the colony 'from' the I. 'noo
of the New Zealand Company. This eomPany by
influence with the Parliament bad obtained lirge
its
Consolidated Fund. The 're
grants
from the p
sea
Act
would make them three mortgagees' on the land' of
Now Zealand, and by the 74th clause they were to
have the first charge upon the lands. He hoped
h
that the House would assist him in stopping one of the'
o many t • bs that had been perpetrated in that House by
books contain
the New Zealand Company. The blue
Recounts of many public held in New
meetings being
Zealand. In 1850 an Act was passed to give a consti-
tution to all the Australian colonies.befre the House a
the
He took
liberty, at the time, of laying °
sketch of a oonstitutiou which he thought ought to have
been given to them. On the arrival of the reports of
the debates that then took place upon the subject, it b
_
ap-
pears that numerous public meetings were held in ow
Zealand, the result of which was the sending of a num-
ber of petitions to that Housee and memorials to the
Secretary of State, in favour of' some such constitution
as he had suggested for Australia. If the principle of
this subdivision be carried out, the time would most pro-
bably come when, instead of six, they ahould,have sixty
legislatures, by the natural increase of the population.
The address from Nelson suggested that one central le-
gislature and an executive was quite sufficient
for all purposes. What he (Sir William Mol3s-
worth) would propose, therefore, w 'to omit
from the Bill all the clauses which had refe-