The Sun.
London, England, 1864-01-21 00:00:00

TIM SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENIN

the manufacturer, the tradesman ; and the paper-
maker must fall in with the rest, and by his

enterprise and his exertion each must overcome the
difficulties which he may have to encounter ; and I
am one of those who prognosticate most confiden-
tially that those difficulties will be overcome, and

hat the paper manufacture of England will be one

of the greatest and most prosperous industries. Why
do I say this ? I find that our friends the paper-
makers can manage to export a good deal of paper
to foreign countries, and sell that paper in foreign

countries in competition with foreign made paper,

and that an increasing trade. I don't understand
why, if we can export paper and sell it at a profit
in the various markets of the world, we need be

afraid of the competition of foreign papermakPrs in
our own market. In 1863 there was imported of
paper for consumption 111,503 cwt., and exported
out of the country 130,000 cwt., so that, in round
numbers, there was 100,000 cwt. of foreign paper,
for printing or writing purroses imported for con-

sumption in the United Kingdon in the 11 months
of 1863. Well, how much was there exported of
British-made printing and writing paper during the

same period ? Why, 103,974 cwt., so that the paper-
makers had at any rate the advantage of themselves
selling in foreign countries a large amount of British,
made paper. Weil, then, where does the ruin come
from ? There is a larger amount of paper made in
this country than ever before, and I believe the
whole imports form a very inconsiderable percen-

tage of the paper consumption of British manufac-
ture in the United Kingdom. The value of British
paper of all kinds (except hangings) exported for
the 11 months of 1863 was £511,737 ; in 1862 the

value was £411,776; in 1861 the value was
£327,986, showing, under theloperation of free trade
in paper, a gradual increase in the production of
rags in this country for exportation. The importa-
tion of paper has also increased. In 1863 there
was imported 34,746 tons of rags against 18,084

tons in 1862. These facts I should like to have ex.

plained, because it appears to me totally inconsis-
tent with the allegation that trade is depressed and

going to ruin, to find increased production for home

consumption accompanied at the same time with in-
creased production for foreign exportation. (Hear,
hear.) Our worthy chairman alluded to the Ameri-
can war. I do rot know whether I should say a

word upon the subject. Very likely, if 1 were to
avoid it altogether, and say it was a foreign ques-
tion, and that with it we have nothing to do, I should
be charged with having some reason for the reserve,
and with being unwilling to state frankly the faith
that is in me. (Applause.) New, when I am before
my constituents I feel as if I em a little bit out of
harness. We meet together as friends, end I just

speak my own opinion ; and vtry likely I am not
experiencing the proper amount of reserve becoming
an official: But, however, I will avoid saying any-
thing I ought not to say—(laughter and applause)—
because I feel, and I beg you clearly to understand
what I say with regard to these matters arc my in-
dividual opinions, consistent with the general prin-

ciples of the Cabirict to which I belong. But in all
governments, as under all circumstances in which
men are placed, there are certain modern diversities.
Some go in one direction rather farther than others ;
but provided there be an agreement in general prin-

ciples, questions of degree are not such as ought to
prevent men from acting together for the benefit of
their country. (Cheers.) With regard to the Ameri-
can question the Government officially is strictly
neutral. Their policy has been to do nothing and to
say nothing, as a Government, that should favcur
the views of either of the contending parties. I think
generally that policy of neutrality has been approved
by the country. hear.) We have been
urged to recognise the South; to take steps to bring
about the cessation of the blockade, not recently but

formerly ; and it is a circumstance which I canoe
pees without observation that the people in this
United Kingdom whose own interests would
appear the most likely to be promoted by putting
an end to the blockade have most desired that our
policy should be guided by justice and good feeling,
with a fair allowance for the enormous difficulties
which the Government of the United States have
had to encounter. (Cheers.) These urgings about
America have not come from the cot ton districts. I
suppose it is found out, by this t; me, that the cotton
districts have souls and intellects, and the power of
appreciating what is just and right i❑ our na-
tional policy, and are not prepared to recommend
that this country should take an unworthy course
for promoting the pecuniary interests of the class to
which they belong. (Loud cheering.) lam one of
those who think that at the commencement of this
American war many persons too hastily formed the
opinion that it was impossible the Union could be
restored. The common saying was, in many parts
of the country with which I am acquainted—" There
is one thing certain, that whatever else happens, the
Union cannot be restored." I never came to that
conclusion. (Hear, hear.) Ido not know whether
it will be restored: I can't look into futurity, but I
cannot go the length of seeing so clearly before me
as some, and saying that it is impossible the Union
should be restored. When the Southern loaders
took up arms—for be it remembered they com-
menced this war—(hear, and cheers)—it was a war
of aggression on their part when they took up arms
for the purpose of compelling the Government of
the United States to acquiesce in breaking up the in-
tegrity of the country,—l always felt that the South
had undertaken a task which it would be difficult
to accomplish, Nothing short of something. like
such a conquest of the North as would compel
them to lay down their arms in despair was likely
to induce the Government of that country to agree
to separate in the way which was proposed. But
when I was told by the Southern leaders, that
their object in taking up arms was not merely the
enjoyment of their cwn independence, out the
establishing of a model slave republic which should
perpetuate the institution of slavery, and hold
it up as an institution that should be cherished and
not condemned, I then said to myself, if these men are right,
and are going to succeed in establishing these principles as
foundation stones of a new empire, what have we been about
for years and yeare in preaching and teaching that slavery
is a curse, and that it is the greatest degradation that can
fall upon a country ? Why have we been endeavouring to
inoculate every country with which we have come in con-
tact with our ideas as to the necessity of abolishing the slave
trade ; and therefore I say slavery also, because if slavery
is right, then the slave trade is not wrong ? Well, if the
Southern States of America are right in endeavouring by
force of arms to establish this model slave republic, then, I
say, we have all been previously in the dark, we have been
poor benighted beings that have lost sight or have not been
aware of the great truth which Mr. Stephens and others
have taught in the Southern States of America—that the
normal condition of the negro, his only proper, natural
condition in the world, is that of slavery. But, as we are
told by this same gentleman, Mr. Stephens, this Govern-
ment of the Confederate Stales, which is about to be estab-
lished, will be the first Government in the history of the
world that has given the lie, as it were, to all the canting
policy which has been supported by England and other
countries against slave institutions. If this be the state
of affairs, can I, as an Englishman, wish or hope for
success to such a cause? I sympathise with nations
struggling for independence. But that is not the ques-
tion here. (Hear.) No man has alleged a grievance in the
Southern States, except the growing sentiments of the North
against the institution of slavery. No man has said that in
the South any right has been withheld, or that any wrong
has been without a remedy; and, in fact, Mr. Jefferson
Davis himself has lauded the institutions of the country in
reference to the past ; and has only said in the future he
sees looming that growing sentiment which will endanger
the slave institutions of tho South, and which must con-
tinue to embitter the relations between the North and the
South, if it went on, and that therefore it was better to
separate. Well, I believe myself that one end of this great
civil war in America, that one termination at any rate will
be the abolition of slavery. (Cheers.) My hon. and re-
spected ftiond, Mr. Bright.—(loud cheers)—is often charged
with wanting to introduce American institutions into Eng-
land. Well, I say with regard to this American war, the
South rebelled and raised this insurrection because they
foresaw that English institutions, viz,, the emancipation of
the slave, was about to be introduced into their country—
' it was the resistance to this policy of ours, to the policy of
England of all other countries in the world, that gave rise
to this great insurrection. (Hear.) We are told sometimes
that tariff questions had something to do with it. Disabuse
your mind entirely of ihat idea. I assort, and if there were
time I could prove to you by the clearest demonstration,
that tariff questions had nothing on earth to do with the
quarrel between North and South. Why, tl;e south was
never united upon the question of free trade ; the South
never held one opinion upon the question of protective du-
ties. On tho contrary, Louisiana was for protecting her
fir, and other States of the South were for protecting
their produce. And as for its having anything- to do with
the form of government, why, if America had been a mo-
narchy, if it had been an empire like France, when these

two great sentiments—freebies of labour on the one side,
and slavery on the other—came into collision on the scale in
which they exist in America, what are the certain conse-
quences ? Why, we did net find it so easy to emancipate
our own slaves ; we had sense trouble, We paid £20,000,000,
and we had a long, eager agitation, in which there was
much embittered feeling; and my firm belief is, that if the
slave party in England had borne the same proportion to
the rest of the community when emancipation was demanded
in this country which they bore in the United States at the
commencement of the civil war, it is very probable you
would not have been able to get through your emancipation
in this country without a resort to arms, or perhaps to the
secession of your slave countries to some other slave coun-
try where there would have been a greater affinity to them-
selves, Now, it is remarkable what is going on at the pre-
sent moment in the North, notwithstanding this tremen-
dous pressure upon their resources, which no doubt will
raise a very large debt, but which debt I believe that coun-
try will, with its growing population and its vast means, be
enabled to bear. I have got in my hand a report of the
Commissioner of Agriculture in the United States for the
last year, and I find that in 1862 there was grown in that
country 169,993,500 bushels of wheat. I find in 1863 that
that quantity has increased to 191,068,239 bushels, I find
that nearly all articles of agricultural produce have increased
considerably oven during this war, and notwithstanding the
fact that no less than a million of men employed in the
army and navy have been withdrawn chiefly from the
agricultural producing class. Notwithstanding we see this
remarkable statement,perhaps emigration may in some mea-
sure account for it, I find that large numbers of adven-
turers from every part of Europe are still crowding the
shores of the United States. I find that the commissioners
say that " While some as adventurers seek the western
world for military fame, stimulated, by our large bounties
and chances of promotion, on to fighting sincerely the battles
of freedom and equality, the greater part come to labour, to
enjoy independence and quiet, and to make happy the humble
homes for themselves and theirchildren. According to there-
ports of the New York Commissioners of Emigration the
number of immigrants arriving at that port was 146,519
against 67,307 during 1862. This increase holds good in re-
spect to other great ports of our country, and independent
of the large number of persons from Canada for other por-
tions of America." I will read only one small passage more
of the commissioners' report, because if I were to go on at
any length I should read some opinions which would be held
to be unpalatable in certain quarters. (Laughter.) I shall
confine myself to one passage, in which he wishes to indicate
some of the causes which have led to this great immigration
at this particular Lime in the United States. He says, "to
an intelligent mind, and especially to every American, the
causes of this influx of foreign population, even during a
period of war, are very evident and gratifying." I shall
simply indicate some of them without discussing them at
length. In the first place, the present rebellion is being
understood abroad in its true light, as a revolt against de-
mocracy, the rights of labour and human nature, and that
the triumph of the Government guarantees to immigration
its great reward of peace, prosperity, and freedom. (Cheers.)
I hope I may be forgiven for speaking out so much on this
question, but I could not disguise my feelings, and I think
the contest has arrived at a stage when we should frankly
express our views and interchange our ideas. (Hoar, hear.)
I will next touch briefly on some questions of domestic re-
form. No doubt I ought to do so. I ought to say a great
deal on reform. (Hear, hear.) I shall be asked what has
become of the Reform Bill—is it put in the pigeonhole
' never to be taken down again till covered inches deep with
dust? (Laughter and loud applause.) I would say the
Reform Bill when brought forward was a question which
had neither friends nor foes. (Applause.) It was smothered
with kindness—everybody was a reformer. Lord Derby
proposed a considerable reduction of the county franchise,
and said, "Go to £lO in tho counties." Mr. Disraeli
thought the borough franchise ought also to be extended,
and if so effectually ; and that the promise should be
kept in the spirit as well as in the letter. The Go-
vernment brought in a Reform Bill proposing a
£lO franchise in counties and £6 in boroughs. But
that bill was completely talked out of existence. What
was the cause I I think it would not have been in the
power of any Government to withdraw a bill of such impor-
tance after it had been laid on the table of the house, unless
they found, on the part of the country and the House of
Commons, indifferent and lukewarm support. (Hear.) My
opinion remains unchanged. I think it is a mistake to
postpone the question of Reform. I believe that England's
happiness and prosperity have rested upon the fact that our
reforms have been progressive and gradual, not effected by
sudden and extensive leaps. If the Reform Bill was put off
till an indefinite period, a Reform may then be asked and
have to be granted, which will not then receive the sanction
of parties that would not support a useful measure of Re-
form, it would be useful for a Government, if backed by the
country, to bring forward a measure of Reform which would
extend the franchise to a larger number of the working
classes, and thus place the institutions of the country on a
broader and surer foundation. (Applause.) These are no
new opinions, they have been expressed by the leaders of
both parties in the House of Commons. All parties are
committed to Reform, and some wish it to bo understood
that they have abandoned those opinions upon which the
present Government was brought into power, and the pre-
sent Parliament elected. All say "Bring on Reform at a
convenient season." However, who is to say when it is
convenient? I say that the constituencies—the country—
mustn answer the question, Reform, political reform, was
never made a free gift to any people, and yet was never
granted by any governing bogy or Parliament except at the
demand of the country and in accordance with public
opinion. The laws of England have navel. • anticipated
public opinion, sod I hope will never do so. A Reform
must be such as public feeling can support and co-operate
with. And, being so, nothing would have a greater ten-
dency to sweeten the political atmosphere and to increase
the general confidence of all classes throughout the coun-
try. (Applause.) I am precisely where I was. I have
already expressed my views on the question of vote by
ballot, upon which I are also where I was. I believe you
cannot have a genuine vote from a constituent body, what-
ever that constituent body may be, if you impose as a
restriction on the voter that his vote shall be published.
Unless you give the voter the power to vote by ballot, if he
sees fit, you cannot secure that the electoral body will give
expression to its pule and genuine opinion. There may be
countries in which the classes are so equal in the social
position—there may be circumstances in which the ballot is
rendered a question of no moment ; but I believe there was
never a country of our social feelings, our sense of caste,
our aristocratic predilections, our gradations of wealth and
poverty—there never was a country in the world which
requires for the eliciting of the genuine vote of a constituent
body the power of secret voting, so much as England.
(Cheers.)
A VoreE.—Denmark. (Laughter and cheers.)
ANOTHERVOICE.—Aye, that's it.
Mr. GIBSON.—WeII, I am asked to say a word about Den-
mark. One of our eminent statesmen on the Conservative
side said that the Danish question, or rather the Schleswig-
Holstein question, was one which few had studied, and which
none understood. (Laughter.) I confess my studies have not
been very diligent in regard to the Schleswig-Holstein ques-
tion ; but I do not know that anybody who is not a German
professor is expected to be able to explain all the refinements
of German law, and all the difficulties which surround the
question of succession to the two Duchies of Schleswig and
Holstein. But it appears to me that this is a question
which ought to be settled without fighting. (Cheers.) I
remember that when the Congress of Paris met, after the
Russian war, which Congress was attended by delegates
from all the chief Powers of Europe, I think my Lord
Clarendon, very much to his honour, moved a resolution,
which was supported cordially by the French representa-
tive, to the effect that for the future it was very much to be
desired that when questions arose between the different
countries in Europe—questions of dispute—that before
having recourse to arms the office of some friendly Power
by way of a mediator should be invited. I happen
not to have the resolution ibefore me, but it came to
this, "Try if you cannot settle the difficulties in
future in Europe which may arise, and which are
sure to arise, by reference to some third party, before
you resort to arms." Well, I think that was a vary
sensible resolution, and I wish they could see their way to
act upon thorn in this Danish Scbleswig-Holstein question.
(Cheers.) All I know as regards the policy of this Govern-
ment is, that the object they have in view in any advice
that they may have given, or any moral influence that they
may have attempted to exercise, their object has been to pro.
mote faith to engagements, whether on one side or the
other, to promote justice, and also to secure peace. (Great
cheering.) But beyond telling you that the question is one
which I hope may not give rise to war between any Powers
of Europe—beyond telling you that it is impossible for me
to form any opinion as to what may be the ultimate views
of Prussia, or Austria, or Denmark in this matter—l know
not the grounds upon which they are prepared to settle the
question. Our obligation is a very limited one in the matter,
and merely relates to the succession. (Hear, hear,) We no
doubt are parties to the treaty of 1352, which attempted to
settle the question of succession of Holstein and Schleswig
to the crown of Denmark_beyond that I should rather
avoid saying anything for fear I should mislead. (A laugh.)
I fear that at the present moment the question is in a very
peculiar position, all hoping for peace everywhere in respect
to it, still it looks dark and threatening, and if we express
any confident opinion perhaps we should be only misleading
—(hear)—but my earnest desire is, that it may be settled by
some kind of conference or arbitration, rather than having
recourse to arms, which only settles who is the strongest,
and very often leaves =settled who is in the right, and who
has justice on their sire. (Cheers.) I thank you once more
for your kindness. Yeti have heard mo with great indul-
gence. I have told yeti that my opinions upon reform are
where they were. I know that official men aro supposed to
part with their first loves and form new connections. I have
tto t done that yet—(cheers)—and I mean upon every occa-
sion when it is in my power to do so, to promote those
views which gained me favour in the first instance with this
constituency—reform, religious equality, extension of edu-
cation, freedom of vote—l mean vote by ballot—extension of
the franchise —(A Voice--"
Retrenchment (Laughter.)
My hon friend says retrenchment, so say I. (Cheers.) lam
for retrenchment. lam sorry to say I do not think the
House of Commons is for retrenchment. It is very popular
'—
is a large expenditure, and very difficult for a Government
to reduce expenditure. if the income shows there is more