The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-26 00:00:00

FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 26, I'-‘s‘)

which have been brought before our notice on the other side
of the question—to bear in mind, for example, if they
please, the case of Manchester and Thetford. In, North
Cheshire we have only two towns ,of great manufacturing
importance—Macclesfield and Stockport. The total popu-
lation of the county is 249,000 ; the total population of the
two towns I have just named is 92,000. There remains,
therefore, as the difference between the two, 156;000. But
while the two towns, with a pePulation of 92,090, return
four Members to Parliament, the rural constituency, with
156,000, return only two' Members. . Take the case of South
Cheshire, in which there is only one town, that of Chester.
T:e nopulation of the county is 206.000, and the population
of the town of Chester 28,000, leaving 178,000 of the popu-
lation of that -rounty who are put represented except
by the county Members. The town a, Chester, with
its population of 28,'00, returns :two Members to
this House, while 'the rural constituency of 178,000
returns the same number.—(Cheere.) I will take the case
of South Derbyshire, Where there is. only one considerable
town, The population of South Derbjshire is 166.000, and
that of the town of Derby-40,000, leeving 115,000 of the
rural population. That population of 40 000 return' two
Members, and the rural populatiOn of 125,090 returns the
teme number. I will now take North Durham. It contains
the important towns of Durham, G tteshead, &Judi Shields,
and Sunderland The entire pepuletion of North Durham is
2;2,0410, including both the town population and the coun-
try population; and this is nil in:eresti; g fact, that while
ibe lioptilation of the towns is exactly the same as the
county population, yet the population ef the great commer-
cial towns I have named are represented by six Members,
while- the purely agricultural population ot •136,000—the
other moiety of Noah urban-are only represented by
two Members.- (Cheers.) I might still pursue this. I will
take the important county of Kent. West Kent has a
population of 460,000. It contains four great towus—
Chathem. Greenwich, Maidstone, and Rochester, one of
these towns having a population of 100,000. The popula-
tion of the towns is 169,000, and the remaining rural popu-
lation is 228,000, yet. the urban population of 169,0110 re-
turns seven Members to Parliament, while the 228,000
only return the two Members for West Kent.—( Loud
cheers.) Yes, but year after year we have been told that
it is most unjust to the towns - that our representative sys-
tem is favourable to territorial influences, and that it •is an
artificial means of giving preponderance to the landed in-
terest. We never heard a single word of these extraordi-
nary circumstances. We have heard a great many contrasts
made between the number of representatives returned by
the great towns in'" South Lancashire and the smaller
boroughs in the south of England. But no Parliamentary
Reformer has yet condescended to favour the House with the
more extended views to which I have now alluded, views
which I should hope will now be accepted as the result of a
msre extensive and temperate experience.—(Cheers.) I
will now appeal to that favoured region any mention of
which is so favourably received in this House and whose
fortunes, commercial, Parliamentary, and political, are not
only the subject of so many discussions in the House of
Commons, but which is itself the theatre of so many
leagues, confederations —(Cheers)—and associations. The
people of this , part of the country are celebrated
for their powers of statistical analysis.—(A laugh.)
They favour us with the publication of tracts on,
gaw ujr en.nuuma o, sou,/ visOy 010 ee-
among other things, the profits that the colonels
quainted with the most minute details. But they have never
called the attention of the people to these facts. - (Cheers.)
Here is the case of North Lancashire. There are four consi-
derable towns in North Lancashire—Blackburn, Clitheroe,
Lancaster, and Preston. The population of North Lanca-
shire is upwards of 460,000. These four towns out of that
only take 143,000, leaving for the rural constituencies a
population of 316,000. The four towns return seven Mem-
bers, and the rural constituencies return only two Members
Hear, hear.) I will take the ease of South Lancashire.
It has a population of 1.600,000, under the new census. I
will take all the towns, the noblest seats of modern industry
—Aston, Bolton, Bury; Liverpool, Manchester, Oldham.
Rochdale, Salford, Warrington Wigan. The population of
these boroughs is 1,000,000, being two-thirds of the whole
population of the county, and the remaining third consists
ot the rural population. Yet the million of manufac-
turing population in this proud county of South Lanca-
shire are represented by. fifteen Members, while
the rural population, which is half as great, is represented
by only two Members. lam sure the H. have heard such
long, frequent, and repeated complaints of the injustice
done to towns, and the preference given to the agricultural
interest, that they will not feel that I am abusing their pa-
tience by these details.—(Cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) I will therefore take the county of East Nor-
folk, in which their are two great towns. East Norfolk
has a population of 250,000. Norwich and Yarmouth has
a population of less than i 00,000. Yet the 99,000 persons
in the manufacturing towns and the seaport are represented
by four Members, while the agricultural population of East
Norfolk, nearly double its amount, are only represented by
two Members.—(Cheers.) I now approach Yorkshire, and
that is the last county I will quote. I will first begin with
East Yorkshire. The East Riding has a population of '
.21,0 0, and contains two towns, one, Hull, a port of great
importance. The town population of the East Riding'
is 94,000, represented by four Members. The rural;
population, 126,000, are represented by only halt
that amount.—(Hear, hear.) The West Riding re:.'
mains, and if I were to seek an ;instance to show
that the distribution of representation is not made with any
eesire to promote or retain the preponderance of the landed
interest, I should seek it in the West Riding, that is so
frequently the subject of our discussions, There are nine
considerable towns in the West Riding—Leeds, Sheffield,
Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Wakefield, and others.
The entire population of the West Riding is 1,300,000. The
town population is 500,i 00, and the rural population
-(00,000. The town population are represented by sixteen
Members, although they are only 500,000 in number, while
the rural population of 80C,000 are represented, not by sixteen
Members, but by two.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) This is a summary of what I have just stated.
In South Lancashire among the borough population every
70,000 persona have a representative, and every 257,000 of
the rural population have a representative. In the West
Riding of Yorkshire every 32,000 of the population of the
towns have a Member, and every 400,000 of the agricultural
population have a similar advantage.—(llear, hear.) I know
it may be said, and it will be said, unless I answer
it by anticipation, "You have made out a very good co-
lourable case in favour of your views; hut you have selected
live or six important but pa, tial instances." Sir, I have an-
ticipated that objection, and I have tested the matter in ano-
ther manner, which it must be admitted is a fair mode.
Here I have a catalogue of the population of every town in
England which has a population of not less than 20,000.
There are 77 towns in this list, beginning with Ashton and
ending with York, with a population, many of them, much
exceeding 20,000. They include almost all the seats of c ,m-
-rnerce and manufacturing industry, and they include a popu-
-4,000, who are represented by 138 Members.
ITahtie9rn of 6,2
There are towns which do not possess popu-
lations of 20,000, but which are considerable places,
the seats of commerce, and which ought to be in-
serted in any list of the kind, although they do not posand
-
sess populations of quite 20,000, such as Lowestoft
Lynn Regis, I have added about 30 of these boroughs to
the 77 boroughs, all of which have a population of 20,000,
rnd some of them a vast and immensely increased popula-
tion: The population of these 107 large towns, and stresrictly
borough constituencies, is more than 6,500,000, repented
by 187 Members. The result of this analysis
about is the follow
th-
ing :If these Members represent 6,500,000, half e
population, taking the population of the country at
17,000,000, that remaining portion of. the community are
represented by, Members - barely exceeding in number the
Members representing this catalogue of towns.—( Hear.) I
find that the population of these boroughs have 35,000 per-
gine to every ember of this House, and that the popu-
lation of the rest of England, the rural populalion, have
36,000 for every Member.—(Cheers.) So that, taking this
complete and comprehensive view, when you come to a
fair distribution of the representation between the land and
the town population, yon have only between each a differ-
ence of 1,000 in the proportion of the population.—(Hear.)
In both cases, in the case of the urban and the rural and
landed population, you have a less difference in the number
of persons represented by each Member than has been quoted
by Mr. Mackay. Whether you look to the towns
or country
population, they are, therefore, more amply repreented in
this allude than is laid down in the pamphlet that has
been alluded to as the proper exemplar and type of represen-
tation in this House. Having examined this subject so far,
I have arrived at a different conclusion from that of my
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose: I think that his sta-
tistics, and the statistics of his school, are f
combiounded up
nations
on
partial instances, and supported by fantastic
which convey erroneous impressions that do not justify the
policy that 'he advocates.—(Cheers.)
completely iallusory,
and, as the- facts to which I have appealed are
open to • all, and may be found in the in
his library,. I .shall be surprised to find him main-
taining his poiition that in the distribution of the re.
presentation the town population is not justly treated in
respect to a comparison with the country population.—
(Cheers ) It appears to me, Sir, that this is a position that
can no longer be supported.—(Cheers.) Going to the next
proposition, my ,Hon. Friend asks us to' sanction'a resolution
that the duration 'of Parliament ought not to exceed three
years. Sir, I. have no inveterate prejudice to shorter Par-
liaments. I have often said in this House that triennial
Parliaments, were always supported by the Tory party..
Chat statement has been received with scoffing by Pion. Gen-
tlemen opposite, who do not condescend to pay much regard
to any other history than that in which they form such dis-
tinguished characters.—(Cheers and laughter.) But tre
is no doubt that the cluing° in our manners, which hash n-
creased the business of the House of Commons, is an els-
meat that must be taken into consideration when you wish
to ascertain the proper duration of Parliaments. But,
remembering what lase happened here during the last
fwtnight, I am filled with 'astonishment to hear the Re-
formers and Liberals cOrne 'forward in faVour of triennial
Parliaments. What have they told us this year ? One
member of the Government is very anxious to bring forward
a measure which he considers of the 'utmost importance kr-
the security and good government of the realm. But what
are we told? " Why, you are' -bringing forward a measure
'lir the last yeti ot a Parliament !_(Cheers and laughter.)
You would legislate in a condemned
ht Parliamen
countsel the
laugh.) It can't be heard of. Yon oug to
Sovereign to prorogue and dissolve the Parliament as soon as
possible." But if in the last year of a Parliament so nench
time is lost, we should have, If my Hon. Friend's proposition
were adopted, duennial Parliaments—(A laugh)--and, if the
old and favourite scheme of annual Parliaments were again
ahmaevnets_an(nku alla
uPgahrl)i
a-
unedtufttos thatearodmi sma ntoonsds say, p
condemnedEtnedgianYcowuP: a rdn
never presume to legis-
a
late, because they would be dissolved, and would cease to
exist in the very year they. met. The third; proposition
of my Honourable Friend is the recommendation of the
vote by ballot. Now, it is always the case that the man.
ner of taking the votes can never be considered as an
abstract question. You must necessarily look at the
votes you have to take. If you have to take a very large
number of votes; or if you have, on the contrary, a very
small number, the method by which you wthilel
prerceosemntat
con-
stituency.—(A them to be taken necessarily assumes a different character.
With a limited constituency the ballot may be a very I
have heardsof
con-
stitutional measure; but are Hon. Gentlemnenotp?_rep(carreideotno_
accept the ballot on this condition? Well, 1 will assume
that they are not prepared se to accept it, anhclanthtaot they
would
,ne
yof
from
recommendn(At
hecry
Opposition
fv o, t eN boy; b)b ae lnl
Youcoht withbenches.)
are
e,oslauingffdarraccgohne'ytraonl and to
hlewrig:44ll
to-
night of an oligarchy, but I never heard of a
t.more cunning
and successful
m numberins
pdeeevtoii device to
,et orf
from
ooestablishninacriticism,
tt
ihe antsoih
aothflietmmheitfeurednenfranchised millions about whom we
mucla.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial is have
hei4
do not believe from the speeches ofm my Heolinc.heFs'riknii (41
Member for Montrose and other parties on that side of the
House, that they sincerely desire t
concomitant say that anextension
of see the:present consti-
tuency vote by ballot. They always
vote by
ballot —( Hear, hear). But where=taut of thethe
line?—(Hear.) Where is the do they
1,
Lee
line to be drawn,
of the franchise is a necessary
admit that the franchise is a right? If you say that
you do not want to draw the line, and tell us I
have submitted to these restrictions in, deference to the
prejudices of other persona;"—if you wish to have uoi-

they might receive, for they were not educated—their edu-
cation
hitherto had not been much taken care of ; but of this j
he was sure, that if you went into any of our large manu-
facturing towns, you would find the artisan, who was the
manufacturer and artisan of his own fortune, would be the
first to oppose himself to anything like Communist doc-
trines—(Rear)—and if a man could be depended upon he
could, for the maintenance of what was called the sacred-
ness of property.—, Hear, hear.) Then, where was the
objection to this man ? What were the opposers of the mo-
tion afraid of?—(Hear, hear.) There might be a sort of
personal antipathy to coming in near contact with men who
had not hitherto bad power; but when we came fairly to
discuss what was wanted in a constituent body, what was
there in the proposal that should excite alarm ? 'I he real
proposition was—as for the ballot and the other points, they
were as dust in the balance as compared to this—
that " every man of full age and not subject to any mental
or legal disability" (but it did not rest there, or it would
be universal suffrage), "who shall have been the resident
occupier of a house or part of a house for twelve months,
and rated to the poor of that parish for that time," should
be registered as an elector. If it could be made out
that the constituency proposed could lead to mischief,
jj
there would be en end of the case; but what was there
in this to excite alarm? True, there was a vagabond popu-
lation in every great community, and labourers who were
living by their labour from day to day, and continually
moving about; but they were not included in this proposi-
tion. Where was the danger of giving a vote to a resident
ratepayer?—(Hear. hear.) It would be said, "Oh, but he
must have alt 1. house." The Noble Lord's (Lord J. Rus-
sell's) Reform Bill brought it down to Si. there were very
few houses under 51. His (11r. Roebuck's) farm labourers,
at 9s. a week, paid Si. a year. Wby should not Si. house-
holders vote? Then, in London and various towns there
were lodgers, and among them there were the most eLlucan d
and intelligent men; why shou'd not they be admitted?
What was wanted was not only to give an ample represen-
tation to this country, but at the same time n a, to excite
any jealousy or to do any injustice. Now among the intel-
ligent artisans you would find a strong feeling against the
peculiar mark which the Legislature thought fit to consti-
tute a title to vote. There were thousands—he was going,
to say millions—of persons, who, being lodgers, were ex-
cluded from the franchise ; but there was not a parish in
which you would not find persons living as lodgers with
men who were entitled to vote, and who were of a higher
degree of mind and morality and everything else than their
landlords.— (Hear.) He would not go now into the question
of the ballot. He was surprised to hear the Attorney-Ge-
neral for Ireland (Mr. Napier) propound the exploded fal-
lacy that the ballot was un-English. Un-English Why,
did the Right Hon. Gentleman ever iota by ballot at his
club 1 If a Member were proposed for admission who
from some social peculiarity was a bore, and whom the
Right Hon. Gentleman wished to exclude from is club, he
would vote in such a case by ballot ; and yet heh would not
allow the same privilege to a man who was called upon to
vote for a Member of Parliament, and who, while under the
coercion of a landlord, of a person who dealt with him,
or of a powerful neighbour, might wish to have an inde-
pendent opinion.—(Hear, bear.) Then the Right Hon.
Gentleman foisted upon us the wretched argument that the
&;;;;,,,Tarearuyeastipg He (Mr. Roebuck) thought we had
en— he Ri ht
Hon. Gentleman bad voted by ballot Vila.l6lKdatnu,. lioo
he begged him to reflect a little, and ask, himself why he had
done so, and why he did not say to hitnself, " I won't vote
in this un-English way; I don't like it; it is not bold and
open enough for me. I must tell Mr. A, whom I think a
bore, that I shan't vote for him, that I shall exclude him
from my club; and I won't submit to the degradation of
secret voting any longer."- (A laugh.) But the Right
lion. Gentleman wanted the influence over the electors which
open voting gave. If not, let bun say so, and then he (Mr.
Roebuck) would acknowledge the argument and grapple
with it; but don't let him deal with the question by a
sham or tell the House about the ballot being un-English.
'rake a case. He (Mr. Roebuck) was a landlord, and he had
an influence over his tenant Now, what was that in
? Was it one proceeding from respect? Was it the
influence of a highly instructed over a less instructed mind ?
No; it was the mere influence of a dominant will over the
will of another man. The landlord did not in such a case
come to the tenant, and say, " I think you will find that
Mr. So- and-So is not a good representative, because of his
opinions," but he sent his agent. who had this message—
" Telt the tenant that this is my will -if he does not vote
as I please he must take the consequence." The Right Hon.
Gentleman must believe one of two things—either he most
wish to retain, by means of open voting, the sort of influence
just described, or he must suppose that the elector nould
become demoralised by voting in a manner contrary to bin
expressed intention. Now this, he supposed, was what was
meant by un-English ; the tenant, it was feared, would
promise his landlord one thing, and do another. But why
did the landlord ask him at all?—(Hear, hear.) Nobody
asked the Right lion. Gentleman how he was going to vote
at his club, because, in the first place, it was considered
that no one had a right to put such a question, and because,
in the next place, the Right Honourable Gentleman would
riot answer the question it it were put. Take the case of a
voter in a county. A Member was put up. Suppose he
were the tenant, and the Right Honourable Gentleman the
Landlord, than whom nobody could be more opposed in poli-
tics. Give him the ballot, and he voted as he liked .he
voted against the Member proposed by his Right Hon.
Friend ; but take away the ballot, and let him stand exposed
to all the influences which the landlord could bring to bear,
and what was be expected to do? Why, to sacrifice any
independent feeling ot his own mind. This it was which
'vas un -English— (bear)—that he should be coerced against
his will, and compelled to vote against his conscience. As
to the Bill of his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr.
el me), when he recollected that there were small bo-
roughs, of which he could find a dozen—he might say sn—
that should hardly have the population of one borough,
which were yet net better, represented than they, he en-
tirely agreed with the greater part of his Hon. Friend's
proposition. The mind, however, could not help recurring
to the last proposal for reform made by the Noble Lord the
Member for the city of London (Lord J. Russell), and cer-
tainty, of all the mischievous proposals that were ever pro
pounded to this House, that which proposed to combine
various small boroughs into one in order that they should
have a voice in this House, thus conducing in every way to
immorality and to the improper representation of this
country, as the Noble Lord's measure did, was the most mis-
chievous---(Hear, hear.) What would be the immediate
consequences of it? Why, that every so-called boroueh
would be made proportionate to a small county. You would
have in it an electioneering attorney, a committee, awl a
canvassing body; and, if the combined boroughs were five
in number, you would have five attorneys, five committees,
five canvassing bodies, and five separate establishments alto-
gether. That would be five centres of corruption, of ex-
pense, and of un-English coercion.—(Hear hear.) Any
attempt to unite into one section the small boroughs of this
country, resuscitating that system by destroying which the
Noble Lord attained his great renown, was the most mis-
chievous attempt he had ever heard of. Without going
quite so far as his Hon. Friend did in his last proposition, in
the proposed proportioning of the representation to property,
he would be quite satisfied with a large extension of the
constituency of this country, with the ballot as a protection.
At present he wanted to know from the Government whe-
ther they would bring upon the poli•ical stage that portion
of the population for whom he found in their individual ca
pacities they were always expressing the most extraordi-
nary concern.—(Hear.) He did not see how those persons
were to be excluded from the representation for any length
of time, and he ventured to prophecy that many months,
certainly not many years, would not elapse before some Mi-
nister of the Crown, more prescient than the rest of his col.
leagues, would perceive that the peace of this country would
be best secured by giving to the intelligent artisans a voice
in this House; and that we should find those artisans re-
presented here by some new Reform Bill, brought in either '
by the Noble Lord the Member for the city ot Londou, or
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, with, no doubt, the
view not only fairly to secure his own position, but also to
give to the constitution that security which could only be
given if the intelligence and morality of this country were
equitably represented.— (Hear, Divide.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—AIthough
the subject does not appear to be so interesting to the House
as one might have imagined—(Ministerial cheers)—l can-
not
allow the present opportunity to pass without trespass-
ing for a few moments upon its attention. And, Sir. I shall
eneeavour to do that which, so far as I have been enabled
to observe, has not yet been pursued by any gentleman who
has preceded me—not even by the Hon. Member who brought
forward this resolution—for 1 will keep to the motion betere
the House.—(Hear, hear.) We have had from the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman who has just addressed you one to
those dissertations which no one can make more interesting
than he can on subjects of a very abstract character ; and we
have had several speeches from other gentlemen, certainly,
on the subject of Parliamentary reform. But, it appeared to
me that those speeches were mainly addressed, not to the
motion upon the paper, but rather to that still more elaborate
though evanescent proposition, which for a moment excited
so much interest, but which, with a due regard for the Noble
Lord the Member for the city of London (Lord J. Russell),
I think Hon. Members opposite should have had the
delicacy not to allude to. - (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Among those who have addressed the House is the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman the Member for the city of
Oxford (Sir W. 'Page Wood), who delivered himself of a
very elaborate speech, which was evidently prepared to sup •
port a Ministerial proposition—(Q hears and laughter) 7. and
one consequence of the train of his argument, and one con-
clusion at which he seemed inevitably to arrive, was,• with
singular inconsistency, the determination not to vote at all
in favour ot a proposition which -for three' successive year.
he had supported.—(" Hear,"-and a laugh.), Now,' Sir.
when I look at the motion before the House, I see four
propositions contained in it. With a view to place them
succinctly before the House, I will just recapitulate them.
We have a proposition to bring in a Bill which is to extend
the franchise, which is to insure that that franchise, when it
is exercised, should be taken by-means of the ballot, which
is to secure a triennial election of Parliaments, and which
is to change materially the
Proportion of representatives,
so that they shall be made more consistent with the amount
of population and propetty. This was the fourth proposi-
tion laid down for - our adoption. I understand from the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion (Sir
J. Walmsley) that the proportion of representatives Which
would be deemed more consistent with the amount of
population and of property is, to use the language of that
Hon. Gentleman, a redistribution which will diminish what
he calls the territorial influence.—(Hear.) I am glad 1 am
stating fairly the question before our consideration; and I
will now. venture to make a few observations upon this
fourth proposition, because it is
a More novel topic,
and one exciting perhaps the most interest. Well,
I deny the position which is assumed by Hon. Gentle-
men opposite upon that point.—(Hear, hear.) I deny
that the proportion of representatives is unfairly arranged
in favour of that territorial interest.—.(Hear, hear.) 1
deny all the positions assumed in that pamphlet which
has been lately circulated and submitted to Parliamentary
criticism. The Hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion
referred to some observations I made on a preceding night,
when we were frequently told that it was a monstrous ano-
maly that a large town should return only two Members,
and that a small and almost depopulated borough should be
represented by the same number of Members. I reminded
the House on that occasion of the fact that there were
agricultural, or, if the Hon. Gentleman prefers the word,
territorial constituences, which experienced the same injus-
tice, if it be an injustice, in regard to that distribution of
the representation which Hen. Gentlemen impugn, and which
they impugn because of their peculiar interest in towns.
--(Hear, hear.) I put the case fairly. The case instanced
by me on a previous night was one which, as it
is a brief one, I will refer to again, though I have others
to which I am very desirous of calling the attention of
the House. Mind, I am giving no opinion now upon the
particular .circumstances before us ; I am confining
myself entirely to. the endeavour of laying the case
fairly before the House. Yon say that the proportion
of representatives is so arranged by the present system that
the town population are nut -.fairly represented in our con-
stitution and in this House. I deny the accuracy of the
statement. I give no opinion upon the expediency of the
preponderance being given to country or to town in the L -
gislature, but confine myself now to mere statements of fact.
Let me call the attention of the House to the case of North
rteo—be(arin laatnd
Ithienveolitioand.yalogeernbeoruss,
way htailnecels

- -
versal suffrage-without which, as far as political justice t- from that unfriendly course.-(Hear.) Why theyehnterdei Our
is concerned, I do not see how you can establish the ballot,- ' three or four hours have so severely criticised the with drawn
because, if you have the ballot with a limited conetitueneYe ' -I will not say the abandoned- proposition of the latoe
you commit a greater injustice upon the unenfranchieten t Minister, Ido not pretend to understand. Sitting on Ake
classes; but if you have universal suffrage you come tot same side of the House, meeting under the same roof--
a new constitution-(Heer)-you have, in fact, the stove- ' eVheers)-combining and coanci ling together for the same•
reignty of the people, which is the principle of the Ameri- object-(lean hear)-I should have thought that all these
can constitution, so often referred t° and panegyrized in considerations would have prevented the slightest allusion to
this House. But the sovereignty
of the people is not the the suejec, and that they would have brought forward their
constitution of England That constitution is mitigated and own proposition without obtruding their rejections on the
modified, but it is still the sovereigntyo of Queen Victoria.- measure of ehe Noble Lord, with regard to which we, on r
(Cheers.) "But," says my Hon. nen'', mwe must have the this side, have Always shown the moat respectful silence.-
ballot ; we will no longer have fine spun erguments•against (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I should have
.thought that
it. We must terminate bribery BPI corruption:" - Nov,,, I gentlemen opposite wo.eld have considered the privilege they
beg his attention to a paragraph which comes from anew- enjoy in having a high' constitutional statesman On the one
thorny that' he will respect, becauee it is ' a Traneatlantic hand, and the privilege te°ley have on the other of bringing
authority, and proceeds from a country where the people en- forward revolutionary recOmmendatioos anti plans, and that
joy universal suffrage and vote by ballot. Now, this is the they would not have deanled it their duty to enter. during
way in which the governor of New York on the last occa- : the whole evening, into a crticisne of the late Government
sion addteesed the Legislature of that intelligent state. measure.-(Hear and laughter.) We had some . line-
This was a document which, doulatlegs, they would treat with erions made to a de.oaretiou on the subject ot reform from the
the greatest consideration. for it ems attended with all the Present head of . the Ceovernment ;
.but I protest against con-
circumstances which excited thtii' respect and admiration.. elusions drawn 'from mere anor.ymous paregroples in newo-
America; New York, tbe bolot-exactly what the am. papers. I roust say-for myself and my colleagues that •we
eL meer for Sheffield wanted-self-government; and here is do not consider au eats-bee' of toe franchise to be synony.
the mintier in which the chief of the Self-governed addressed moue with the exteesioa of deinocret ic power.- ( Hear,
the Legislature of no lm
a state than New York, when (hear.) That much vaunted Reform Bill, which no One
it Is,t asassembled,-" The alarming increase of bribery at., Ii has so much basis
with praise a, the Hon. Member
popular elections demands your serious attentip."-(Cheers leir Montrnbe,-.,hat would that Bill have been, I eaelt,
and Laughter.) This is at New Yerk, recollect, where the but for tbe spirit and energy of a Stanley -r-(Cheers.)
ballot is in On ce. -( . ;beers ) The head of the State declares W heu I amtold that he (Lard Derby) is opposed to all re-
that bribery is increasing to an alarrni,g extent, And de- bourn, I cannot but remember-end e•- -end the Noble Lord who
mends the 6 Ltlous at teL.t ien of the In eislat ure.- (Hear.) ' hes ,uccredea nie iii the PaerliaLntary seat I once held knows
I will quote some further ext-acts from the same letter it that it was that individual w,ito proposed a motion
f ono. which I have read this pasaige. I will not men;i,,n which added one-riiiilb to the con..-tittiellnyof Great Britain.
the name of the writer, because I amabout to quote only -(1-1e:,r, hear.) I copulate the assertion a the Hon.
teas, nut opinions. Ile was once a Member of this House, Geadernan and rue friends, that we are o. party opposed to
and has filled important situations in the service of his Seve- all reform unless we linen to
reign, and it I were ..o state his name, it would, lam sure, bee ro us. I uropesitions of the kind now
will tell the Hen. Gentleman what we are
be received by gentlemen on both Odes with universal re- opposed to-we are adverse to all new and unnec,
!pert. You now knew that bribery is not prevented by the proposals teended on such erroneous calculations as the f.teso
tillet, and you will find that i- does rot prevent something sent.-
(Cheers.) I tell him that if env project oh this OT
else. "Individuals Were not merely beaten from the polls, any
other subject is brought forward; I trope it will be
use-.
but were knocked down, beaten, and stabbed when proceeding founded on more accurate data than the
before
about their ordinary occupations in op.n day in distant parts (Rear.) What we are opposed to is tamperinge with the de-
of the city.- (Hear, hear.) ' The police appeared to have positary of political power-to constant shifting
been utterly inefficient. and the hundred thousand citizen sol- ing of the depositary of political power as the
tgrhe4nreert;iic:rheatnfe:
is calculated to 1?e-
-there, of whom the New York papers boasted so much, were thing to a country that can be conceived.-(eni: t Trio"
content to remain at home (Laughter)-while a few gangs may talk of tampering with a policy, and You
of ruffians commanded all the approaches to the polling- things worse; but that which is worse is, t
booths, and in one instance destroyed the ballot-box."- the constituency of England.-(Cheers.) If there Tegtowibthe
(Laughter.) I find no fault with my Hon. Friend and others a change, let it be a change always called for by el
for recommending the adoption of a new mode of voting in this cessity- (Hear, hear)-and one which
futenteees This is the land of free discussion, and every one general-I will not say final-but general and give
permanent
44,11berq to recommend what he thinks best, but it is satisfaction.-(Cheers.) I ask, is the proposition of the
remarkable that in the instance of the 'ballot, as in that of Hon. Member for Montrose, the whole facts on the statement
die ' proposed new distribution of electoral power, the of which it. is founded I have shown to be utterly fallaciwas
facts on one side only are stated-only a one-sided view is is that a proposition calculated to give such general an,
d
kou .;lit before us, and only one class of considerations it permanent satisfaction ?-(Hear, hear.) The proposition
urged upon our attention.-(Hear. hear.) I resume the of the Noble Lord at the head of the late Government, is that
narrative from the destruction of the. ballot-box. This last one calculated to give general and permanent satisfaction?
outrage upon the freedom col election has very naturally The Noble Lord will confess that, whatever bee its merita, it
caused extreme irritation, and the Courier and Enquirer says was not calculated to give that general and rmanent ea-
that brutes must be met by brute force, while the Tribune tistaction. The sense of the country and the House alike
is still more plainspoken. Re says " that the scoundrels called upon him to withdraw it, and lam sure there is not
who thus trampled upon the highest privilege that a free man one who will say that if that proposition had been brought
eee vein" euvetu nave uceu euue nee eon e u deo teenteer, fairly under discussion, it would have received the concur-
whom their hireling souls thus villanously insulted."- rence of the House.-(Hear, hear.) Wecannot sanction the
(Great laughter and cheering.) Now; I beg -my lion. proposition of the Hon. Gentleman or his friends. And may
Friend to observe that while, by the confession of no less we not flatter ourselves that he will consider these things-
a personage than the Governor of the great state of New that he will investigate them, and calmly consider the ins-
York, the ballot does not prevent bribery, it is likewise portant information from the other of the Atlantic whh
perfectly inefficient for the prevention of scenes of I have given him, and that next year-with a health,
horrible intimidation, such as we cannot even conceive in spirit, and energy which I hope he will long enjoy-
this country, men being beaten and stabbed at the polling- (Cheers) -we shall find him coming forward more temperate
booth. - ( Hear, hear) My correspondent, for whom I know in his views and more careful in his arguments?-(Hear).
my Hon. Friend entertains personally the highest conside- Till we have propositions of
rasped made claaracte
1831-(r brougCheht;foersrt
ration, gives some further infermation respecting the ward I shall stand by the sein
influence of the ballot, and I mast confess that what lam and counter cheers)-not because it was a settlement made
about to quote is really humiliating- "We understand by this party for our intereats-fore on the contrary, it was
that the Whig committee of the Bth Ward"-I ought, against our interests; but this lam bound to say, that
however, in justice to remind the House that the Whig the country has been well governed-(Hear, hear)-and
party in America is not identified with the party in this those who find fault with the arrangement, which I do not,
country of which the Noble Lord opposite is the distinguished are bound to show that under that arrangement the country
chief and hereditary ornament-" We understand that the has been misgoverned .-(Hear, hear.) 1 • •
, n my opinion,
Whig committee of the Bth Ward and other wards have though many of '- - ear
the laws passed are laws I could not have
offered 100 dollars to every man who can secure twenty approved. the arrangement has proved satistactory and the
democratic votes for the Whig tickets on election day."- preponderance of sentiment
in the country is, thatunder
.
(Cheers and laughter.) " This money has been partially the country has been well governed.-(Cheers.) There is
raised by the most shameful extortions from the office- holders scarcely one of the great est questions agitated in the country
of the party. It is said that every policeman in the Whig which, in this reformed Parlilamen
districts has been taxed fifteen dollars towards defraying therefore when gentlemen come forwardt noti been met, and
the expenses of the election.-(Continued laughter.) By time, if they cannot show that the presentwth new
Prt•Pnai-
construction of
this means the Whigs seek to crush every inoependent this House is calculated to favour misgovernment,
feeling in the voter, and to make him the mere tool of party the same time are unable to place before us any clear
ea and at
With the money procured in this manner political hacks are eoherent scheme that promises a more ameliorative system, nra
sent to buy up the votes of the poorer, and yet more depen- must uphold the system that exists, though I believe it one
dent classes in those:wards."-(Cheers and laughter.) This that was conceived in no friendly spirit to the Tory party.-.
payment of 100 dollars to every man who can procure 20 (Hear, bear.) But it is one by which remedial influences
democratic votes for the Whig ticket is certainly intolerable, have been experienced under the good sense and support of
and I have been particular in bringing it under the notice of the people of England, and under which our institutions have
. ot:Friend, in order-that he may employ the great in- flourished-institutions which, I believe, are absolutely ne-
i
: is O possesses not only in England, but on tne other cessary, not only ro the greatness of this country, but to the
/a . •
``,l,s d'af the Atlantic, in preventing democratic electors being freedom of the people.-(Great cheering.)
Ohnbed to vote for anything so bad as the " Whig ticket."- Mr. H. BERKELEY, who was almost wholly inaudible
-Laughter.) All this iniquity is practised under the opera- from the buzz of conversation in the House, gave an expla-
'tion of that very system which my Honourable Friend nation relative to the ballot. He stated that he would re-
says is the only means of preventing bribery, and which serve the more particular expression of his views till a future
the Honourable Member for Bristol would persuade us to day, when he brought on his motion on the subject, as he ob-
adopt as an infallible mode of preventing intimidation.- jetted to the ballot being mixed up with any other question
(Cheers.) I must quote one paragraph more, because it re- whatever. The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to a
ters to legislative authority. In the experience of New disturbance in New York, and to the ballot-box being
York, at least, the ballot has been proved inefficient for the broken, but he would give the House another piece of infor-
purpose of preventing bribery at elections; and the follow- Illation from America, and that was, that in the southern, or
tug preamble and resolution have been presented to the As- aristocratic States of the Union, they were seeking to get
sembly :-" Whereas the use of money at elections, for the rid of the ballot, Lecause the friends of the abolition of
purpose of influencing and corrupting electors, is an in- slavery took protectiat under the ballot, and the enemies of
creasing and dangerous evil, and the bestowment or offer, abolition bad no means of detecting their votes.-(Hear.)
promise or reception of money, or compensation in any form, Mr. OSBORNE congratulated the House and through
should be made good and sufficient grounds for the challenge them the country on this, that whatever evasions or mys-
and rejection of a vote ; but, whereas doubts exist as to the tifications might have gone forth during the last week, upon
constitutionality of a law itisfranchieing an elector, there- one point the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been suffi-
fore, resolved, 'That the Committee on the judiciary be and calmly explicit.-(hear, hear.) Treading in the footsteps
are hereby requested to examine and report whether, in of most, illustrious warrior of the age, the Righ Hon.
their opinion, a law conformable to the foregoing preamble Gentleman, atter much circumlocution, had formally de-
would be a violation of any provision of the Constitution clared the intention of the Government to abide by the
of this State.'" Let not our countrymen run away with Reform Act of 1831.-(Cheers.) He had announced that
the idea that corruption is the necessary consequence of Her Majesty's Government did not intend to move on witq
the old mode by which we give our votes in this coup- the spirit ofthe(No, no
-that the old )-that they looked
lity upon tdodge
he
try.-( Hear, hear.) I believe it to he a growing senti-
ment in the conviction of Englishmen that corruption is ,%- is to be renewed, and that come what might the Govern-
the consequence of men not being properly brought ufe meat would give no reform in Parliament.- (Hear, hear.)
-(Hear, heir.) You may pass laws ostensibly to pre- The Right Hon. Gentleman said he would certainly give the
vent corruption in countries where nothing is secret, country 1,0 reform in this Parliament ner in the Parliament
or in countries where nothing is open; but corruption cannot to come.-(Cries of e No, no," from the back Ministerial
be stopped by law; it can only be stopped by elevating the benches.) He knew it was the intention of those ardent
tone of the community, and making men ashamed of the Reformers who cried "no" to give the country a further
thing itself.-(Cheers.) You must seek for an antidote to Cab of reform, but unfortunately they were not in the
corruption in that direction and not in new-fangled systems net. Let there be no mistake on this point, that the
of election. I say, further, that the tone of the community present Caandbinet
th was satisfiedwould with th
noe
party settlement
to giv in 1831-
in which we live is becoming elevated. Every successive (No, no)-at they be e reform a
quarter of a century shows a decrease of corruption. No further trial. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad commenced
man who knows anything of the tone of public life a hundred his speech by attacking the speech of the Hon. Member for
years ago can hesitate to admit that corruption then ascended the University of Oxford-(No, no, and a laugh)-he
much higher in society than it does at present. You have begged the Hun. Gentleman's pardon-he (Sir P. Wood) had
driven corruption from the higher classes. In proportion as not descended to that yet- he was the Member of a popular
education extends, men become more pure, and when the coruitittiency-the Member for the city of Oxford, and the
same influences come into operation among the inferior Right Hon. Gentleman said it was a speech to be made
classes you may hope to obtain a result
which it is for the upon the resolution to be moved by the Noble Lord
interest of all classes should be accomplished.-(Cheers.) I (Lord J. Russell); but he (Mr. Osborne) would leave it
have noticed what I conceive to be my Hon. Friend's total to the House, it the speech of the Chancellor of the Exche-
failure to prove, that the proportion of representatives is not quer was not also directed to that very motion.e-(No, no.)
consistent with the different classes of population. I think I lie would not weary the House by wading through the
have shown that nothing can be more erroneous than dreary mass of confused statistics which the Right Hon.
the opinion ao prevalent in a portion of this House Gehtleman had thought it his duty as Chancellor of the Em-
end the country that the landed interest possesses an undue chequer to bring before them in order to show that the
preponderance in this House. I think I have also shown, egriculoaral constituencies were not fairly represented,while
by reference to figures bearing official sanction which are boroughs and towns had a greater proportion of
thatrepresents-
open to everybody, that it is almost impossible to distribute fives. But he told the Right Hon. Gentleman ,on his
the electoral power more justly than is done at present own showing, he was bound to bring in a Reform Bill to re-
between the two great classes which represent the town and move the injustice done to what he called the territorial in-
country. I also venture to think that I have offered my terest. But he had no such design ;
be had omitted, too, all
Hon. Friend some reasons for doubting whether as much mention of Ireland ; and het (Mr. Osborne) feared that he
corruption and intimidation may not prevail under a system was going to legislate o hat country
.on very different
of secret voting as we have ever experienced under the principles.-(Oh, oh!) Without being enamoured of the
system which exists in this country.-(Hear, hear.) I have motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose, to map this
further given some reasons for supposing that my Hon. country into districts, he was en far dissatisfied with the Bill
Friend and those about him should hesitate, with their Pre- of 1831, which her Majesty's Government had pronounced
seat constitational doctrines, to recommend short Parlia- to be final-No Ino !)-that he would vote for i
-1,--par-
ments.- (Hear, hear.) I next come to the proposi- titularly for the latter part of the proposition, "that the
fion, that the franchise ought to be very much ex- proportion of representatives be made more consistent with
tended ; and on this I have one observation to make. the amount of population and property." The Right Hon.
Viewing this question with perfect impartiality, I trust, Gentleman said he would make a colourablecase&cm- i
I have been much struck by the great exaggeration which the ballot, and had referred to the riot
New
pervades in
pervades the statements made by my Hon. Friend and York. He did not object to the Right la
un. Gentle-
his associates. I remember last session to have heard a die- man, taking the case of America, but he • h
wis ed he would
tingaished Member of this House-one who is in the habit not select the American twig, but take what was good in She
of addressing it with great ability, and with sufficient coufi- constitution of that country.-(lroni I h
ea C eera.) Was the
deuce in his cause and himself-1 mean the Hon. Member Chancellor of the Exchequer content with
the way elections
for Manchester- ask this cieestion:-" Is the system to be were carried on in this country ? Did he
endured in which only one in seven of the adult population of Harwich, the borough for which remember•
the
ca 2
enjoys the franchise?' -(Tumultuous cheering immediately (Sir F. Kelly) was a candidate, when
the SolicitoreGener
foLowed this appeal ; and " Hear, hear," from the Oppose- vitiated because the electors ea the proceedings were
time.) Ay ; I say so. You cheered the sentiment then and their perquisites; and was it tried away the busting..
you cheer it now. Is it true that only one adult male in pened in all parts of England
not notorious that riotee naSr-
seven enjoys the franchise? Here are the figures, let us ex- eack as 1842, a Curorni-t during an election?
ember 0°
M ber for
amine them. This paper was prepared, before the publica- Sheffield had reported eeobtained by the Linn. era
population
timesf the census of 1851, and it apples to :he and corruption; strongly on the existence of bribery
and noth• had been remedy
census dove to
census or 1841, which .1 have.. compared with the electoral the evil. But he could ing
yet Hon. Gentleman that
lists of Great Britain for 1e42-3. The proportiOns must evi- ;he people were determinedtell the Right
ballot. Both sides
dently be !falai about the drips as they would have been if 1 were to ha blamed to have the
nfessed that .he be-
had availed myself of the census of 1851 for, the purpose of lieved, if this
amed for this, and he CO--
-ere to be traced back
ison The electors for Great Britain in 1812-3 were to its system of briber,' ^ • with the Whig
compar • 1 source, it would found to begun
941,782, and the adult . males were, in 1841, 4,961,045, be 1
Party in the' e who were obliged to re-
which gives, instead of 1 voter in 7, 1 voter In 5, omitting sort to -time of WalP° "' f -posing the influences
fractions. - ( Hear.) • But .from the .4,961,00 adult melee bea • it as the only is oOF
alean _go Bear, hear.") The fact
some deductions must be made.
.For the army and navy ring against them.-(Cries m
in the desire of putting down
abroad and in Ireland, and for the navy and merchant sea- was, neither party was sincere
they would have adopted
men afloat I deduct 169,650, which leaves the adult male
brib • for •
ere, if they bad beentosi owe
protect the people, not only
population at 4,791,39-5. Then I deduct 35,000 for the arm vote by ballot-(0b, oh)
on
ei but from intimidation, , which
at home, 111,099.f0r the navy and merchant seamen ashore, from bribery and poem? O.
The Member for the University
74,149 for almspeople, pensioners, paupers, lunatics and was more rite than IF
,„ wade the old stereotyped objection
1,7 er)
prisoners, and 164,384 for domestic servants, who are al. of Dublin (Mr- , Ile would endanger the Monarchy. What
ways excepted from any scheme of reform.- (Hear, h to this motion totiiile stank _ 1
itch in France? Was it not that a
Thee I deduct the residue of the population,- 276,526 hear.) had endangetea
4.0,00,000 bad only 230,000 electors? And here
reduce the adult population to• little more than , and nation' me; ress ~ his surprise to hear the Chancellor of the
Thus, instead of lin7, it is, by the fi 4,129.566. .he most rfi
.gures on our uer de ne the Sovereignty of the country be '
to in
official returns, only lin 4.-(Hear, hear.) table in Ex le
c oe‘ctoris • and bad the Right Hon. Gentleman been
fait:lief.' Those bold statements of-I will But I must go
~,,, 2e!negeon that (the Opposition) side of the House, he.would.
demagogues,- after what we have heard trove not call tb --tnoubt have defined the Sovereignty as consisting in
her foe Montrose-but the bold state the lion. Mem- no-.
Queen,. Lords, and Commons.- (Oh, oh.) The Right
ments of
having dwindled down to this, th Ron. Gentl m
aeduelnt. lionottrable Gentleman had objected to the secrecy of the
t I
population of 4,129,566, which, as ahave got tan eo,
y ballot. He ought to have been the last man in the
givds 1 in 4-I ask what am I to regards the electoral
hies d
r rai House to have done so, considering be was a member of
and urban labourers ?-(Hear, 11°•
with the- agrical
vet heard a Government which was -shrouded in secrecy , The
that the Hon. Gentleman and hear,? . I have
41°Ltijey eons- Maynooth cry was to be used as a claptrap •to go
Govern-
plain that' only 1 in 7 his fiends, while
franchise to the hustings-(Hear, bear)-and her Majesty's
have any wish, under have the exereoe
e• of the '
, vote to the meat would not speak their minds upon it, but he, could
1,435,412 peasantry any System, to give
(Hear, hear.) tell them it would become a very serious question for them.
spread over this country.--
kind. Well, then, -(Question, question.) The Hone Member for Dublin
I never heard one bold assertion of thitt6,
I have remaining University knew nothing of the efficacy of the ballot-he
if I deduct these labourers
only 2,694,154, from 4,12 e, he
wards the electoral body, is had no poor men to deal with who might be swayed,by some
lin 2 and a fraction which as regal."' / in.B.—(llear, bear.) attorney, or by some one who could put the screw en him,
action of 86, or nearly
ts we have always but the representatives of popular constituences knew what
But what a difference from the statemen difference
__ bear ) What a those influences were.-(Divide, divide!) Why, had they
heard on this
subject 1- 1"
fie' pjanchester and at Leeds! not seen it stated in all the papers that at a late election the
from the statements made
eons at Liverpool or any- agents wrote to say that if the tenants did not vote for Mr.
From those of reform ssm" fom the statements made Frewen they must not expect the landlords to dedn
where else! Whet a difference from
) What a difference from their rents? He could have wished that the motion hadct from
in pamphlets 1-(ll"2:,rbretriC orators who, during the) long put in a better form, bat he would vote for it hhw be:
the st atements of 4,,,th—nda-all the world 1-(Hear, hear.) In- had voted for similar motions before. If the Noble, aLord
s
Vacation, havOesswu-,- it is absolutely little more than half and his party, who said they took office as barriers demo-
stead of one ILI:
lIV eli3i clud i n g 1,500,000 of labourers, who cracy, instead of talking of themselves as barriers-which
tee
what you say, have unequivocally proposed to enfranchise. were sometimes swept away by the waves ofelem ocracy--
not one of Tot.,appears to me, then, that the propositions be- would join Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House-
-(Cheer,rs.)
fore the eeeeee • crude, that they do not bring with them (Ironical cheers and laughter)-inmaking are
of invesugation, are not in accordance with facts, and democratic wave, very sure was h
weaken-
proof - ' dicate that degree of research which the House has ing Queen, Lords. and Commons,
ile not in
a right to expe
It aPPears ct in all matters of this kind. - (Hear, hoer.) perly treated and properly a channel for the
e that, so far from
the oble Lord, if he pro-
trusted the people, would be
to me that they are based on statistical errors strengthening both this and the other House of Parliament..
e flagrant than their political blunders, and that we Lord J. ItUS:AELL - Sir. I have so often addressed you
more
rnoO whatever may be Our opinion of the policy recom- on the subject of the motion now before the House.; that I
mended, approve of it, founded as it is on such erroneous shall not think it necessary, neither would it be agreeable to
and imperfect data.- (Hear, hear.) I am not one of those the House, to go at any length into the several propositions
who think, that because I disapprove of a proposition which my Honourable Friend has introducd. It Appears
brought forward in this immature manner, I am bound te to me, Sir, the simple question is, whether the adoption of a
oppose every proposition brought forward to remedy griev- Bill founded on the principles contained in my Honourable
vances connected with the representatien of the people-- Friend's propositions would conduce to the good government
(Hear, hear.) There has been very free criticism on the of the country, and on that proposition I have come most
other side by the new supporters of the Noble Lord of the clearly to the opinion that it would not conduce to the good
measure 'which he proposed when he was a Minister of the
government of the country-(Loud cheers.) I believe that
Crown.-(Hear, bear.) I think a sense of decency, if it you had a different distribation-which, however, has
nothing the, should have led those gentlemen to abstain I not been chalked out by my geglOefebis "flend—but sub,
.. .

a distrabution u would disfranchise a very considerable
number of boroughs, and leave the counties and
large towns with representatives-that if yon give
not only every householder, but every lodger who
might by fraud or collusion be placed on the rating with-
out paying rates, read made him an elector-that if to
this plan you added the vote by ballot, and that if you had
the representatives thus elected assembled for three years-
which would, however, be in most cases not for more than
two years-my opinion is, that you would not obtain a
Houle of Commons which would, either with regard to the
executive, to the other parts of the constitution, or to calm
and deliberate legislation, be as efficient a body as that
which has assembled according to the present system.-
'Cheers.) Therefore, Sir, if I were to choose between the
°position of my Hon. Friend and the existing state of the
aw,l certainly would prefer the latter.-(Hear, hear.) It
spears to me that is a sufficient reason for voting against
afpropesitioa of my Hon. Friend. But I confess I think
. acre are some parts of this proposition which contain not
enly the elements of a worse House of Commons than we at
present possess, but the elements of future danger to the
country.-(Loud cheers.) I cannot but see that if beside
householders you add lodgers, unless the provisions
of the Bill are exceedingl stringent, and merely
provide that they shall be ratedd and resident for a certain
period, you would approach very nearly to that state
of the franchise which, though the Honourable Mem.
her for Sheffield did not consider it so, was, in fact, universal
enfrage-(Cheers) -and I say, Sir, you would not have a
body of electors possessing that independence, intelligence,
end integrity, which it ought to be your aim to secure in the
electoral hody.--(Hear, hear.) With respect to the vote by
ballot, in reference to which my Hon. Friend who has just
cat dowel said the people of this country have made up their
minds that they will hare it, I cannot deny the present
popularity of that proposition.- (Cheers and counter-cheers.)
I repeat that I cannot deny the popularity of that measure;
but I do think that many of those who have adopted that
. prorosition as one which ought to be granted by Act of Par-
liament as it at present stands have not considered all the
consequences of the adoption of such a plan. My Hon.
b'rlend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) says, as I be-
lieve very truly, that intimidation is not only exercised from
above on those below, but that it is exercised from below
e,tl those above. Bil any of the working classes of
'as is country exercise some species of intimidation
'against the ten pound electors. It is very wrong
that they should exercise that intimidation ; but, at the
same time, you must consider what would be the conse-
emence if the working classes found that their opinions had
no effect oa the voters, and that elections took place, with
the result of which they were totally dissatisfied, while they
were not aware who the parties were who gave the votes
on the different sides. I believe that their dissatisfac-
tion would be much greater than it now is-(Hear, hear)-
and they would either ask that open voting should be re-
sorted to again, or, what is more probable, they would de-
mand that the suffrage should be extended to every person,
and that every person, together with the ballot, should have
the right of voting.-(Hear.) Now, I must say that if you
come to a suffrage so general as that, and with it were
;.eitierd a Parliament for three years, though I can understand
that such a Parliament 80 chosen might exist under another
stonstitution, yet I must confess, to whatever blame such an
*Mon may expose me, I do not think that a Parliament
thus elected by universal eutleage with vote by bailee. and
for a short period, wouki long exiet with other parts of our
Censtitution-namely, the Monarchy and the hereditary
branch of the Legislature. -( hear, hear.) With re.
sped to the question of the limitation of Parlia-
ment to three years, the Right Hon. Gentleman says
that that used to he the favourite project of the Tory
party in former years. But the Parliament of Great
!Britain solemnly repealed the Triennial Act on the ground
" of the ineonveeiences felt to arise from it, on the ground
of the increased expense. -and because greater heats and
animosities had been known in England under it than had
-ever been known-under any other system of law : and they
'place' a record to this effect for the benefit of posterity in
the preamble of the repealing Act. I can readily believe
that it inetead of going to an election at the end of every
Live or six years, we were to slay that every two years
we elieuld have an eleclion, and that every two years all
the great interest, of the country should be driven to
the ,buntings, that parts' heats ant animosities would be
such that the people of this country would not bear a
state of things of that kind.- (Hear, hear.) Therefore
with. respect to the proposition before the House, I
hive no other choice but to vote, as I have on several
estteems already voted, against the motion row made.
But the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
let-quer:who, I must say, has gone through those various pro-
peeltious with very great ability-(Hear)-has thought pro-
per to refer to a Bill which 1 introduced, being then a Minister
of the Crown, :led has likewise declared the policy of the
proaent Government with respect to reform. On these sub-
jects 1 wish to say a word or two. I did not withdraw that
Bill, because I was convinced that it did nct give satisfac-
tion ; Par, if I had remained a Minister I should have thought
it right to have proposed the second reading of the Bill, and
to have asked the House to go into Committee and discdss-
each separate provision.-(lle.ar. ) I should have done so
in the conviction that there are, without touching on the
particular provisions of that Bill at the present moment, two
questions with respect to the representation of the people
requiring the consideration of the House. One is, that it
appears to me that by the right of voting fixed by the Re-
form Act--end so fixed, I think, with very great caution, in
order that in adjoeting the franchise we might not at first
ex a rate lower than would be safe-the franchise, in my
epinien, is too exclusively confined to the middle classes
of this country. My own opinionhagreee entirely :.sog a
general opinion, with the statement made by the Hon.
usibertar Sheffield, that there are numerous artisans in
Ohms country-men, eaeningohy their labour and skill com-
petent wages, who have intelhigence and integrity fully en-
titling them to possess the elective franchiee.- (Hear,
hear.) And my belief is, that if you go on for several years
more, leaving the franchise as it is at present, there caunot
fait to grow up a feeling of dissatisfaction among these work-
ing classes; whereas they would be conciliated towards the
inaintenance of the Constitution, and would be made more
attached to the institutions of their country, if they were
admitted to the enjoyment of the franchise in a greater de-
gree than at present. - (Cheers.) I believe that they are
fully qualified to have the franchise, as at present they are
attached to the Constitution of the country. But 1 believe
that it is the business of Parliament, and the business of
statesmen pretending to rule in this country, to foresee in
some degree what may be the state of this country some
yearn hence in process of time, and also what may be the state
of the country in a very short time, supposing circumstances
to be adverse, and supposing distress, or any reverse in trade
should induce men to consider what is their position as re-
gards the Constitution.-(Hear.) There is another matter
in reference to the smaller boroughs to which I think the
attention of Parliament should be given. It is nut the exist-
ence of those smaller boroughs to which I allude, because I
think their existence as a part of the representation can be
fully and adequately defended. I think you would not have
a sufficient representation of all the classes of the country
without having some of those boroughs with a smaller num-
ber *electors. But I think there are several of those bo-
roughs, which have so small a number of electois that they
cannot be permanently maintained as they are. I state' in
bringing in the Reform Bill that the object of the Govern-
ment was, that no borough should be left with less than
300 101. voters. I think that number a low and restricted
number; and yet I believe that no less than 14 of the pre-
sent boroughs have a smaller number of electors. That is
a circumstance which must, before long, engage the at-
tention of Government. I will not enter into the
modes by which we endeavoured to remedy the inconve-
nience; but I must say a word with respect to ' the
policy of the present Government, as stated by the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I own I
cannot say that that policy is founded in wisdom, or that it is
a policy that can be maintained.-( Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman says, " I will not make any change in the
Act of 183 e without a clear necessity." Now, we all know
what " a clear necessity" is.- (Hear, hear.) We all know
e.. that " a clear necessity" does not mean the general opinion
of sober and dispassionate men; it does not mean the exami-
nation of your existing legislation, and a determination. to
'emend defects ; but " a clear necessity" means that degree
(4 discontent and disaffection - (Cheers) -which would render
lttafe to govern without making a change.-(Renewed
sheering.) We all recollect what has been the case with re-
-_ Zil:art'', lathe:r.)party opposite in regard to great measuree.-
IVe all know that the just requests of the
Z 71.1„ lerbeattathorics of Ireland were denied until "a clear neces-
: Wean kuoin the shape of impending civil war.-(Cheiers.)
Died until Jae,hat Parliamentary R*--jfi n'k was constantlY de-
that reform agitatien of the egoP.e arose to such a height
We all knowl'''svtl no longer be resisted.-(Loud cheers.)
respect to other measures of an eco-
nomical nature,tilie
apr_ was tut until associations were
throw bout the country that the
fLoergimeeliilituarnedagreeCree
(Hear, hear.) I own Ite!titeh the laws on the subject.-
wouldPositin
the
'roe that the House of Commons
.g tia.kea to he everse of dignified, and hardly
safe, 1, .. were declared by a Minister of the Crown,
and echoed ,by a majority in that House, that until a
if ntierit arose- Cries of "No,
clear case
cheers)
-newraeln,th„Q
no, and misrepresenting the
iYeaould like to know what
h cleat' necessi y" mean?-(Cheer
of) I can un-
Right Honousable Gentleman,. 1
those words
deratand that there could be a clear. questions.
you
havenecessity seems to
policy-of
wisdom-of foresight ; but a qteestioa of
me a question in reap eht to which
safety., underata d -
That -fade' (-IC no longer
that you must either. yield, to demands an° option, and
continue to govern in
indeed, we ar, tr, bade to be
" clear necessity ;" and then,
cures to give general and permanent s_aotiuslfdaetpl°rooka--"a(gove,rereas.).-
Yes, this sort of satisfaction, which '''
doors nothing but agitation, of (.ominous,
require
nothing but agitation to move the .flous. But
and which wouldu out-of)
is agitation alone to be the power that is to
_gi\velET:rnietuz
to the House of Commons?-alear, heal' ) -
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer Says
further, that although the Reform Bill was passed agaulst
what he conceives to have been the best interests of the
country, yet he is ready to admit that since its enactment
the country has been well governed. It is to me a _
trium-
phant satisfaction that under an, Act which I introduced
some 20 years ago the country has been well governed;
limit it was a measure of liberal policy, and that it has had
a tendency to the good government of England. I can un-
derstand that a measure under which the country has
been
well governed is against the interests of the party who 1285
constantly opposed it.-(Hear, hear.) But, deeming that
the interests of a great portion of the country and our
interests were identified with the interests of the
country at large, I sever conceived that our interests were
opposed to the general interests of the country. For the
reasons I have stated, I must vote against the proposition
contained in the present motion ; but Ido trust that her
Majesty's Government will renounce the course they have
- ' indicated to-night, and will consider well the step they
genw -.take. I trust they will not wait till a necessity arises,
lite but that they will take an early opportunity of maturely
' considering the present state of the representation with a
view to an extension of the franchise; and that, above all,
13.', Yateill deem it incumbent on them to extend that :fran-
Ire! to a greater number of the working classes than are
IL': I_h_. the enjoyment of it, so that by timely reforms they
whfchuTite those institutions of the country permanent to
believe the people are at present steadily and firmly
le >Lee att.aehg.i....
Mr. WA."'"".)
to enter into the said it was entirely unnecessary for him
Mem-
ber for Montroseesl.,thiect of the debate which the Hon. Mem-
tt introduced ; and that for two reasons
first, that ever
ei'ion f t. ing that could be said upon the specific
prope- L 0 e Ilan Member had been completely
it answered by hie Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the
d *e.4acilYe ,that his •
moat
ably supported in the first part
sit his speech .'_ail
the Noble Lord, His
ai
tnienxi
gphretesnhoint ingaoiletotreetiojef by the Noble E (Wd,
ia only object in rising
'wag to correct
i3l order that
Chaccellor of tee Exeigguer had used country that the
„ disoonxtepnretseainoda
"clear oecesetkr ",_sYn"37l:a°u'i with
ditaffection." The onservatiena ef the Nob' e Lord-illue-
tinted as they had heel' by illesiees to the Reform Bill and
to Women Catholic 1-'were-i",-Nvete not very felicitous.
t In the Constitution of this
ie,o,li `-'lWhen his Right Hon. ,Fricil" 1111", use of the words "clear
the idea that any
lath trestecessity of thrthenienPr°r"ers
`ad House e hti,„,,,,p1,0a with t.„t. oyserl.l6,
Isngsviziatsriikkiiblekihthiol 14e-Pa`l, •?A`c434five permanent and
‘ci'', -r"'
.../.....`.•-
f Friend to mean w-as this
--1-"wesfaction to tde cote try. aw.. be
(Mr.
wad_
lead his Right lion.
sat having pc„,ni the Reform Bill in

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