The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-22 00:00:00

S N,

N )0 N

SAT 1) A air i

rence to provincial councils, and, in the next place, to
vest in the-General Assembly the power of, constitutiog
municipalities. -He should be sorry, indeed, to eats Now
Zniand divided into six provinces, for by its very nature
the colony wae•forined tn be a political
distant` from all othei-eouetries, she would 'fittate no
natural ezienaisi, unleis they create d by the Go,'
vernment at home cutting up the islands into several
distinct provinceseeech with its distinct legislature. The
opinion otthe settlers waa.la conformity, with his own
—narneTY,..thatinere: ought to he one united legislature
for the whole colony, sirin.he begged to give notice that
in Committee.on the Bill he should propqae such amend-
ments as, in his opinion; -were 'beet • calcalated to carry
into effect the reasonable views of the settlers. • ,
trusted the Horne would not consent to pess tliemeasute
in its present shape.
Mr. ADDERLEY said he was glad, to have that
opportunity of.,:etaeing the sentiments contained in a
petition, which he was. too late to present to the
:House 'when • the order. of the-day fpr the second
reading of this Bill was canted on. It was the petition
of the Canterbury Association, by no means
an unimportant portion of this large group of colonies.
The association, in their petition, stated that they had
observed with. feelings of deep hatisfaction that a Bill
had been introduced to this House. for the purpose of
establishing within the colony of New Zealand a coustie
tution founded upon principles which would give them
duo control over the management of their own affairs.
They said, that they had made thernaelVes acquainted
with the provisions of this measure. and they were
enabled, to assure the Housenwith Confidence, that, as a
, whole, and in all its' main features, it seduld be hailed
with the greatese-statisfaCtiiinna. " a boon pf inestimable
value:"—(Cheers.) 'lt was right ho stioidd stage alto
that it was only owing to this debate coining 'on at',art
earlier period than was expected that petitions of a simi:
lar nature from individuals in London, puthorized to
speak the sentiments of other portions Of -tile group of
colonies, had not been presented to the House.—(tlear.)
He could assure the House that the question was too far
gone. and too ripe, to admit of -the delay proposed by,
the Hon. Member for Southwark. It woolen verity well.
for that Hon. Baronet, and-other Hon. greatiorsn year
after year te_propose further delay till they shoulethaee
finished' and polished aemeasure exactly-to 'their
own minds; but he (Mr. Adderley)evould tell them and
the House that it was hazerding• the integrity of. tile
empire itself,..thus to play. mith the feelinge of the cola,l
nista, Thegreat want ot our colonies was sell-government;
and they did not ask that as a boon or a favour. They
simply asked, as British subjects, to have' extended to
them the rights of-British subjects. It was seven years
since that • the House acknowledged that New Zealand
was ripe -for 'a constitution. In a great debate which
Cock place in 1845, that was amply admitted by all the
leading Meriabers of this, House, including the late Sir
Robert Peel, LordeJohn Russell, the Honourable Mem-
ber ,for Southwark himself—in short, by all who took
part' in thief debate,. which was brought on by the nate,
Charles Buller, au abler advocate, perhaps, than the
colonies had ever. since _possessed in that House.—(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.") Having briefly :enumerated
the' various measures adopted with reference to the
government of New Zealand since that 'period, the
Hon. Member proceeded to say that, upon the accession .
of the present Ministry to power, seeing the position in
which the colony was placed, and having a measure
handed to him by his predecessor, Earl Grey, which
wag , represented as urgent arid absolutely necessary,
and only to be illegally withheld, the Right, Hon. Geni
tleman the Secretary for the
.Colonies hade with a proper
sense of duty, eidde.essed himself to,complete the wee-.
sure so framed by his predecessor. Accordingly the
present Bill bad been prepared, and the House was now
in that very classical position of having " three coureea",
(spent to it; to continue the present Suspension Act; to
do nothing at all, arid thus allow the suspended Act of
1846'.t0 come into force next year; or to pass the MCA-
sure at that moment under consideration. To continue
the pre-sent Suspension Act would be to drive the coin-
pads into a frantic state of irritation; for that would be
still to deprive theta of the power .of effecting those im-
provements' so necessary in a new
measureq tien tl y ,
uponthe beetthe line
e.t_o
(bHer, pursuedhcar.;w° ua
EisstotrQyl.aard
oCapsotnts the-
opinionshee otn. the emobl oenris ts
for s
w ete°
ilctohyvncearreke d(;olatteldthonuogthththe
Honourable'
read the whole of the docuthente from, which he had
e
favoured 'the Souse Pith some extractie True,
at the meeting held_ at Nelson, in October' 1850, a.
central legislature, composed of two houses, both elec-
tive; and a central executive were declared to be de-
sirablee bat it was-added, by one of the, speakers, that
for a country like New Zealand a form of government
which would•confer upou the several districte large
and efficient. To the same effect was the
powers of dealing with all local questions. would be most
by the, colonists at the meeting held
expressed-soaptiinsifctooanry
in November, 1850, and again at the meeting at Otago, a
month or two after that. The constitution proposed by
the Hon. Baronet the' Member for So.iithwark was for
one colohy only. What'vaas the :real ,difference (with
that exception) between the measure of the Hon. Baro-
net and the Government? The lion, Baronet proposed
a central legislature and executive constituted for the'
whole colony, but municipal bodies for local purposes.—
He (Mr. Adderley) agreed that there was one blot, in
the measure--.-the concurrent jurisdiction of the central
add local legislatures. If this could be remedied—as he
doubted not that it could be, then the GoVernment mea-
sure would secure, practically, all the advantages which
the lion. Baronet the Member for Southwark proposed
to attain. The language of the Hon. Baronet was
identical with that of certain articles in leading journals,
which. might makes powerful impression on such as did
not examine the subject for thomsolves; but the only
two New Zealand paperapublisleed in London were in
favour of the Bill, and accepted . it. as a great boon—
(Hear, hear)—and.tlae opinions,. of the colonists them-
selves Was of far more value than the essays a?
9philoso-
hers who, in their grand theories, overlook the useful
••
and the practical.—(Hear, hear.) It might be said that
the numbers of the colonists were not considerable—not
exceeding 26,000 persons, but they were a body of men
as enlightened and intelligent as any that had over gone
from England to found Mir best settlements.—(Hear,hear')Thernumber, Coueol4 was not apportioned to
the number of persona, but the number of . settlements,
separated by the
physical, features of the oountry, or
'
divided 'by different plans of colonisation. With regard
to the debt, it had been recognised by Act of
Parliament, and must be paid by the. mother coun-
trybound to pay it, as it had been caused by the blunders
or the colonists. The mother country wet in justice
,or the errors of former colonial secretaries, in cir-
:curnstanees certainly 'exceedingly diffi. ctilt. The colo-
nists, however, had. exPreaaed, a, willingness to pay it,
and they were the best judges. 'They did not object to
dition that they might have an option as: o the price of
`"the measure for liquidating it by land sales, on the con-
tbg land; and that :discretion was given them•by the
Government till. In conclusion, he would read a pas-
sage from; a letter written by
gentlenian
.who ropre-
seated ihe.colonists in this country,:—" Though object-
jog to the details -of the 'Bill; Ibelieve it' will be an in-
calculable advantage, and that it will beaconsidered as a
great boon; while, if reje,cted; the colonists, wearied out
by hopes deferred, will despair of ever obtaining. benefits
so often promised, and the want of yehich they so bit
terly feel."

•Nr.. V. SMITH said he had expressed his approval
of the diligence which had been displayed by the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary. Ho was
favourable to giving Liberal constitutions to, the colo-
nista, but. was adverse to giving ;them imperfect con-
stitutions. This, unhappily, bad been already done
on one or two occasions with very evil effects, His
Honourable and 'Learned Friend the . Member fur
Southwark had stated good grounds'for, moving that the
Bill be 'read a second time that day tbree.months; and
ha was of opinion
..that, this course should he pursued.
and the consideration of the Bill postponed. It raised
Xll tlao must •diffieult questions, federal *and local go-
vernments, electoral and official Members, and so fenn—
el', the questions_ ,discussed in the' Australian Govern-
ment Bill would be raised ripen,. this.' There was the
great question, for instance, of the Provincial . councils,
and there was the 'question also of the land silos being
given up to the colonists, as to, which he, had some
serious doubts. -A' similar measure
,in some respects
had been prepared •by, the late Secretary for the Co-
lonies, who, however, had sent it out for consideration
in the colony, and ho (Mr. Smith)i submitted that the
colonists should have the opportunity of fully consi-
,dering ,the :measure. He believed it 'Would' be best
to postpone • the Bill. He did not believe that the
colonists would be so mad as to be thrown into a
state of frantic irritation, by such a -Course, or would
be offended by the Bill.being duly considered. The ex-
,pressed opinion-of the colony 'had not been all one way,
and it undoubtedly was diVided. TO deal with Ake New
Zealand Company was a Matter of difficulty, .which had
been settled last-sessiob, audit need not have been intro-
duced into thiS Bill. If this part of the measure were not
excluded, great discussion and' would' be caused. ,
Mr. E. DENISON preferred the amendment of the
Bill to its posipoueuient.--(Hear, heir.) He did not be-
lieve this would be at all impossible. He; however, ap-
prehended that, as the Bill now stood, it might have the
effect of overwhelming the cok:lists with local councils,
and its machinery might be too cumbrous 'and its opera-
tion too complex. It would very much
,facilitate the
passing of the Bill if the arrangement of the functions of
the subordinate councils .were left to be settled by the
Central Legislative Assembly.
Mr. J. A. SMITH concurred in the opinion' that it
_would be better to leave the settlement-of the -functions
of the district councils to the Central Ikiislatiie 'As-
sombly... He mould give his •suppott to the Bill, and he
deprecated any-delay in a 'nieasiire ' Wbich:was one of
colon
vital importance to the colony. With 'reepect to the
Zealandp
Company, he thought its claims entitled to
high consideration. It had been actuated by the most
ensinterested motives
bein
remembered promoting theth
aita interest e
thats t o fotrah
inyy,' and it should
the merit of obtaining those colonies for
-,lV7.:F".3PlifEritwan4.ithat while there were many parts
of
reserve. his
htifs whiche aEtl
ri 12: duipsapproved,' ha thought it better
He did noon them. till 'they went into
Hoff. Baronet the
course to adopt would' be tr S
menibesr ;gr,ee tbe re ark
of the
outhairk, that the best
Reilnll;inointtethee Contrary, he thought abnet°ttehretreSpursopceenedsiotno
spassider
ai
tni
ot
nh,e
thoughpreseu tote: thesuipoona tti eterosuunrcei
'disappoint the Staffordsbatitr4Pl%7 undery th elo
ors
eo;)r,atbhl ea tMt
heamy boeur g fhotr
not
ttoh
of the colonists on the subject, He
representativetho(uhrt. anticipationsAtl ad.eri
tie present measure were to
.stitutions would not be given to New Zealand Miedle-
too late.—(Hear, hear.) It was but just to Sir 0.:0 Grey
;ty
that upon his appointment as governor of the
and civil con-
found it in a state of anarchy
fusion, and at war with a powerful native race. In the
course of six years,' he had, however, succeeded in brieg.
in the colony into a condition of peace and prosperity
ctootostnayteile.
without a parallel
the history of our colonial depen-
dencies.—(Hear, hear.) Any one acquainted with the

! e ~ t.,--, N
e_e_____h_n....etneetes---,___e_eo • :-- • .
condition of New zeatend setteteheeteihetas Sir ,Ge Grey i their celonios, and extracting frem them a ireisehable . o-
iled stated it, that the great haettipn which this ceuntry ! tertiary benefit, instead of which the paiieh• of England
had to. solve with respect ho NeW Ztaland, was not how, i (eight to be the reultiplicetion DI Intr. race nisi order that
they „were to eelonieteiteorao whateextent -self -govern- they might.propreoto her inifitiit'iithe, heti ethteett ter
merit waatto , be, given ,to the. colonises, but how they I tehded to the rapid ottopulatieri of -the eolehiso, wohlcf
entre it wriswret.'ueP-ed.;;Or
cjould hest succeed in the civilization °fob() netiye, rat, . ereeet with btoefienn the mothermeeratey. Ththi
hore
thhat washhe ()Whet whibh .Sir•O. GieY ,bdillo 6 gire%t,ll-4.1 reacilvd 45 clitaex tit an early esned. I
,eh tele tee.
extent succetded. in •effeetien, end if helsresentetivh ie- cteartero of Rhode bland' Wes ens eon!, 1 Bat et w etitutienthited Wein given to the colony iu 1846, to (Me. nowcontidered not safe to allow thea chiles t Otti4 }via
di'. R. Peel) did not belittitethat that Object Would have been Act, retailer to, any Joe:O.-nut e e •7t 9 sett azl.
i lo Se, tin et. tthven ees=
ottainect to VT grtien iM &I'2 ellt.; as thejetrould still have hentiett tilt it was remitied to .. Er:gland, ! hereto-. se
been eteugglieg.fot the- nehstert - with the native race. *mtaiiii,,d, perhaps, for tete yeere h
7 WI
411.0 afgAM-eileS 'Of tile',•lloA. iiirOiiet the Member for -that' three years were rots-posed 'bet weetd the, ~.so
and experience So uthwetek 'Wenttio 'elattw the representative ittetitutious and clecisivneio -their. local matters and the 'keit-Windt: t
What*was was the system under which they lived. 'What te
were not Oltogether an, unnatx.ed been tonn iltfantcelorly, as to whether their Acts :were to take effect/ or doh* rat;
.
inteudedeto.be a .1'
nnteonal repmentation - often dwindled be their feelings they were to pass Acts on stibjeueltds
provedethitt in- such cites;
into a merely kcal represent-Abu of that particular which they understoodenot- imperial etibj4ti,' lthue titian'
locality which happened to be tii`Eide the seat of Govern.. al.an Act relating to the Great Westerit Reilitaho 'Mid •
ment, and the Representative ASsehlhlY ultimately Caine they were to be remitted to the other end ;of the world
to be composed of- persons tvhoh3 'occupation or profess- 'and h‘ept in an office, and censidered or not honsiderodttet
sign enabled them •to reside' near, the • spot- heels,' the the' might he—(Hear, hear)--for tivo years e— ,
Assembly:wet held, anilthe more distent•Mterests of the (Hear, hear.) Yet that was .the syAtein' till& 'was
- colony %Tete:consequently' 'neglented or :: unrepresented. adopted to wal!cl.s. o.ll' colonies.. Tee oltf •ichte of tecolony'
' Moho present poittion of No w Zeeland it appeared ab ' ttas that it was in the nature of a municipality or a nor .
selutely essential. to have • sepatath local councils,' arid."poratiOnt he.' this Country corporations were placed
the vindieetion of this Bill was, that it proceeded upon uuder the :control of the 18w of the land, *tit they bed'
lake prieciplatof. Occommodation. It accommodated it- the liberty of. local regulation. The bye-lens of 'the
self to the, force- of the circumstances which it found tech* corporation of Liverpool,. or any other Omit, town, were
istirlg in New- Ztalandee•Heschesidehedethat they were net sent to the Home Secretary to be coesidered for two
bound to attend to thedeidition'and circunotaneits of yeithetto.(lheate hear.) N ee• these munittipelities, as
• tee colony for which' theertrere' legislatiegrather than they existed in the ancient times, ware; yell • defined;
, attennpt to•earry
,out any'speettlative notions of *Goyerpe *they were sobject to .thetgeneral -restraint. of the laws
• went Wfileh they might wiali in'intrahuce, • into the 'en-• of''.pegland, but he every.,. other, respect they ,ttere7 •
They- As 'an tnstlince tothihillut -Might :retereto when almost tehstildtety awl entirely free.-h(tlear, hear.
was p ening; tit.. the Cape of Gocd Hope. • .•
So longas. that. That degenerate. and- degrading - recta of roe
colon
y .Watt solely :
e managed,. by. h. Governer they • taming the ' substance,; ouch . still: more 'the rif-
heard - the
' • /Intetteg oof the, • chofttcting , interests' of c•nle of colonial petrcmage, was t. tetelly nektiown
thifferent narttesre es h soots however, as it wits' during the old colonist system. The old tleniatt: pat-
propoeeelao confer the 'got erntiierti'of . the colony upon sassed the soil; they administered their ! oen phitce;
a neenesentative • assembly; the tiaateinodistriet make() they bad to defend ;their own frontiers; they'were the
the Government to remove the seat of legislature from bearers of their owe charges, the electors' cif -theirtown
Gape IPownt which wee 'the extreme Min of the western officers and thee makers of . their own. laks.-e(llcare
histriot, toil -nmee•centtal'hpot, or` to diiide the whole •• ' heir.) *•Now they
,had
.eeherst.d. in the
.laht 70 years •
colones into ;two separate distriChs, ast it was 'im.Psslible. 'every'one.of 'these Salutary principles.•-•-(Heen)
.'We
that thie 'Members froth' the' eititera district could afford retained the fee-simple of tee colimial land.; -The •eole-
to spend -half tho year ito a
_place so far distant from their nists were not fit In oue, supgtior judgment .to mauage
owo residence", -Thore.could be • no. doubt that there their Otto' affairs, and henpe those magnificeot sums ap-
must he tie
.Netw .Zealand-n central legisleture for the ' 'peered in the estimates, because we provided that they
whole of the colony,•'aed 'it.'wes *.egutsily' clear to his wore-not to beer their, own -expenses. Inetdad of allow-
mind that eitich legislature' should exercise exclusive ju• tug them to consider the .measures which they thought
riediction over- the cottncils• in • the *separate provinces. to be best calculated to adopt in reference to the aOori-
:would the existence of the getter's! jurisdiction they .ginal inhabitants, we said, t "Oh, that- is a matter' far the
:
would I lave *hontlicting system's' 'uf dettesteehpostage, of Imprint Paeliatteset.O.,And-u-frfiniertr :fitting in Down-
curgene y, et real property,
and other matters. Thant' ing-etreet must deterraine how-the low:lilies between the :
were q uhstione upon which' he thought there-cot:lld' bh libohittinia and the colonists are to be settled:--(hear,
no don btus*to the propriety of their -being. reserved for ' hear, and laughter.) The idea of allowing them to
,elect
the ' dah'ihitl of :the "get:chit or &tarsi assembly. their own officers! • That would be extremely eeholu- The geographical position of the oolong thendeted• 'tionary. 'lf it would not-destroy. theroyal supreintiCy,
it ahaelhatetytnecessery -to dividetit into provinces, each it would, et all events,, b 3 a dismemberment of the
with . its :separate:council. 1n addition to this there 'empire. - 'As "to allowing them to matte their own,
In -
Was . entirely - wantingetthat ' ceistre to which and laws the notion is so nreadtul, es opposed to
fromewhichohe different interests bf ' the country could alt ideas of night and• truth, that no 'person could
be said to radiate and emanate, and there was also went- for a moment gravely think... of ' preposilag°
ing thot common bond of theitin which would be required such a thingeho(flean, hoar.). They had thee reversed
it all: interests were to be beritralised in '. ono. general the five greet principles of the ancient systetia of colt:-
• legislature . for the whole island. At, the same time he nizetioe, and they had reversed them because they
' hopethe tiler, in the course of events.,' all these settlements looked upon their colonies as stakes.--(Hear, hear.) If
wouLut be Merged lino onset and that New Zealand would they locked upon them us municipalities founded 'in • the
event wally forma -single. and- ennfedorate Society.- He shadow and circle of their own imperial power; if they
was ghettetherefere, to see that her Mejesty's•Govern- only imposed on them necessary restraints and left
Punt .had inserted a. proviso 'teethe Bill, leaving to the them free in'every other respect, then they would not
general, tesseliihly not merely the 'eittliesive jurisdiction only have saved countless millions to the Exchequer of
liver certein provinces, bite also a concurrent jurisdiction this' country, but they would have produced a system
over inn. other questions uptie which
thepeovindial °din- whiCh would have been more worthy of theatelves, be-
oils uptight legislate.' Ho ' had many
eteht objections to the cause no one could read the history of the greet Ameri,
provihioes, of ~the Billotiore eshecially to: those • • -revolution -thou, sehiug • that your ,colonies then ~
--- thoserelattcg cap wi e<
Co tho,,:constitupotref• tne tipper chamber of the genetal 'reared Men of such u mental stature and power as •en-
asseneoly, the constitution of - thelocel councils, and he: tirely transcended those whom the colonies of the pre-
might also Say to 'the • power: which it was proposed •to seta day produced.—(Hear, . hear.) He would feati. to I
confer upon the _general esseenblY, nehmertly tor theap-• the House a portion of . tne charter to Rhode Ishind, i
peeprtotiopeof the land revenue, but also•with respect' to which would show. ehat what he had stated was not ex-.
the management of the watt°. -lends of the colony: He angerefedebuothe plain and truth. The charter
would, however, reserve • any remnrke he might have to' created the colonists of that island into-a•body‘coeporete-
make;upou these points, until the Hewitt Went 'hie Com- • 'and Politici, it
,gave them a body, of 7assistants and
mitten: on the Bill.' With respeetto-xiie gen9rsl outline tree mete in :Waticipation •of the inhabitants 'becoln- '
of the. ;Bill, so fat as he could judge, • it • appeared to be ing:nureeroant it gave. them the power' of electing
well veenehy thehianction of the House.. -, their own officers sad. representatives. - The
.system
Mrt .GLADSTONE said. that it was before all thinks which our ancestors thus founded two centuries • ago .
important ehet in order, to arrive it a just opinion onthet hid borne - :the tetrein. of
,the American revolution;
tdcmila of thihsubject • the Reuse -*should Consider its and at, . the..preaent - memente in every ' state -Of
4tepart.l position. , Ho - considered that the present Tar-. ' that wonderful country, it , was .the ;form and model of
liameitt ought not to be prolonged' by :diactissions on the government 'frem one.,
apd of it to . the other.' For a
detail„ of temp, forgiving a• COnstitinitin to New Zealand. colonY to elect i
tsown Government now, ehat would be
If th at. heas sehhehusetion before theta was in its first aspect' shocking indeed. But this power was, conceded -to Rhode
thisnetohether they weret each following his own scheme Island in
.1662, when be would,not say the warmth, but
for a coloniatooestitutieu, to • urge 'on the House the the fever of royalty was et.ite height in this country,—
adoetine of that sehemet or •to be content to-view * the (Heet.; heer.): Yet is was at that period that they wore
'plan of ehe.Governmenh as a whole, and looking at it in :desihed to "elecit their own GovernMent: They were
that light to except it, or -taking the'Other course to re• allowed-to make their own laws, subject to no other re-
ject in That was the alternative before them. If they straint except that, as far as circumstances would admit,
wished for 'an ...opportunity of discuSsing the Bill as they Were not
,to „be contrary .to the _Jews of England.
practical men, with a practical object in view, they'must They could iippeint
teheirtown officers, constitute their
on the, main .content ohtenselves With adopting such own courts of Justice,; embody their own forces for their
Means as would enable them to' gain that more kapott own' defence, -and appoint their .own commanders over
taut othect. He would then judgeOf thetßill ase whole, those' forces. They were the owners of their own soil,
and.ata sing the "main points • in- *which he thought it a. and the bearers of .their own charges.—(Hear, hear.) He
beneficial reeaeure, and an advance on previous• colOnial might be asked what security there was for the good be-
tlegi•iihWioneif he adveited:to provisions which he cheUght havithir of tho colonists in, this case.--e(Heart) It was, he
faulty, ,he 'would refrain from urging his objections,' un- could not say the most perfect, but it was as perfect as any
less in any case these provisions 'should appear to be so which had been recently invented, for in case of the co•
dangentweatto make it,l on the whole, advisable that the lonists invading any prince or power in alliance with the
definitive consideration of the Bill' should be post- Crown of England, they were to make satisfaction to the
ported for another Year.• He could not pass by an Crown, "or put out of our allegiance and protection."—
odeasiom of: this kind,' when they were dealing with (Hear.) Two hundred years produced great changes
the question of giving a constitution to a remote colony, in the circumstances of mankind, and though he did not
withouth recalling attention to a false position in which say that in every particular this system ought to be
therstlod with regard to
.the Government of that
class' imitated, yet when. he, regarded the'ACtS'which had been
of cam tee. He
-was Ti*".
not aware that any ,British' celony, peesed of late years for the colonies, the millions Which
had aryived at a just, and what he. would call a'nohmat, had been spent and the discontent which had arisen. and
relatiozObetween the colony and. the' :mother country. reflected that 200 years ago a system had been conceived
By
.a normal, relation he did not mean a• relation 'Minded in which the spirit and Ohatacterittics of the ' mother
on the, speculations of Philosophers and political eeone- country was maintained, they could not draw the con-
mists slime, but on that relation the leadipthfeetfires of trust without bringing a blush •on their faces.--clear.)
which. in old times sehsisted for' the Perposes. of colonial, He woeld mow proceed to discuss the 'Bill, which he
government, and never- attained 'in a. greater degree
.would do. in a spirit of fairness. Ho looked upoa the
than between this country andt heh North American Bill_ as upon the whole creditable 'to her Majesty's Go-
colonies. It wit's-flew "th n it. - • had its vernment—(Hear, heisr)—not because it went back to
ouget. 4.uat.at . colony L . . .
life in an ex • ecutive. govern:me t d•• ' was to 'be founded the ancient system of Rhode Island, bat becainte it
on Parliamentary le 'l' ' . a lae Atofthepeople • dic tea a real intention
• -hts atton.ano the fume.
at home, and under that system it Was expected that a ' and hetututts he thought it tenceded•O largermeasure of
population was to grow,. sad tb .. be trainedlo'freedinhe
tfrehhoinehen was given •to any of their colonies, if he
arid totwhicht•in proceseof tinie,- a• Modicum of' f
ree Ca-- .elOccepted one.. Thia eels the dietinetivni ',Petit 'of the Bill.
stitutiOne was' to beegrientern 'This. -wan a 'true,. -tutirlie' 't-n(Htter, bear.) He wasedrrehto 134 j, die could not agree
meant it. to be an unexaegcrated ha punt of. the Manner eviehnis Hen.,-Friend the Member for Southwark, with
in which moderh eseeeree h, s ' 1 - A d. There was whom ha ,generallyeonettiried cinthese gnestiOns, when
a difference bet were feu e t
too • the
between the poliey Of -colonial,
.government he said that the Bill recognised much principle of
and thettl°f en Other department''
they looked to t the ' t o
nance or it in the handeof the central legtelature to determine
,
f foreign pod - - •- "ethnent._ of
o cy In the ' itv rement •at : home, the amount of authority to be greed to the local legisla-
it was hfohnd• that . 0 ;e - 1 there were tures... He (MreGladstotie) regarded the re-cognition of
11 the e who 0.-
certain leading principles folk:vied it • and on which' lcmatsettlements es tone-- of the' gteateet merits of the
there was a general -coecurrence of Pp' ini°n' No one Bill.—(Heart heart) One of thechaniateristics of their
desired that there -thould be an V' . essential 9 alteration in reeenthegielation was. that it was, in an eminent degree,
the foreign Policy Of this c't ' • which• had been 'arbitritiy.—(llear, hear.) We drew the line 'for our-
adopted for a series of
rho
'Butouttry b
.. ' quirede helyeseinsteed'of following the line-that nature and ii..l- '
,w at was ,re
to be impressed • -!
on the. • minds • ••.rt.hi; p6qpie of this" ces;ity drew fortdn.—Olean hear.). •Itives a
.tniSta'ae
country was, that in the a `°ht e t- ' 1, n (he to suppose :that ierequitted•lo,ooo tor 20,000 persons to
meant free end r' ' • oendation o to co o y
•,
• P anted, not con' u*oretd,eoloniee, end suite
.gonoi:.l,li9,4l,o9litiaul society. • •Th'att tette .11. great mistake
us were histurbeff by aftehthite;er ' e • differ'- '..--ii. vulgar..error.:-and no nbette're—Olieer, 'hear.) A
a arising from ..., ~, . ,
cute of race)—that in fouudin ;9.4h colonies, they had: ' political society was formedinYacerninoti epprontmatiOnt
proceeded on principles fittidagnientishy'hnengeo(fleer, .common-pursuits, corentisneetatiohs iti ti . great degree'
hear)—and that,-. while
_Acts, of Parliateent had heeu common ideas is a great degree; co:hit:on indiietryeend
passed to gives them :teen- free ehiiititutioni, 'there hid ' 'common ilac.. . These censtitntedhe social Wilds; if he
been no recognitiOn of right prin ' Ales, but Modifications might so speak.--([leaf; Itteer.)-- The Right 1-16 ii., Gen-
of and restraints on wroph,_(Rar Iti Or) e The right tlemen departed from weird • tradition by granting a
principle was tlittOhliiek!tvas. tide - pi'd -6 our ancestors Jargettfere of pOWer,tqloplities.-7-(Hesr, hear.) Their
200 years .e go, wh to
'o7he4"they fedi:Ueda cOloni did not -forefatloiree in ;:,10idciiiii*.sr, gr4Ated large powets to
come with an estiinitO ee the hheiii..iiir ask,. for ' 80034 'hatell.hittliee-hf itheehlectoituee these bodies so constituted
thonsands of pounds a piiir echet,' 9 - .
le epee, - anda chief' ''hietifitinhtl'a great' power •of- expansion, as the acorn
justice, and a col ;to
ettc!rl°." souttetery It. vd
in apparatus of. contained. the germ of, the .oake-I(Cheers.) `And
officers.—(tlear, hear,
. • They' 'ooltilecteci. a body of, free When ••' -they ! coestdered 'how well that system
men who were ready to found otot• to, .tvorked'hn, North America, and that, -the. American
a free state ahalog
our own, and which enjoying .6titeeeedom,'shottld peett' 'Union With `dependent on the 'local principle,
pagate our raceehr 1
'distant'agetOlit institutions, and our. as distinct from the central principle, this recognition of
religion, in : '. hene e ' -(heave - •Itear4 t'titetill cenimunities which were to have a substantive-ex- •
It was not' on their hone' • -isitehete , ... .~ •
instit tiou .-th4 Lhoy•
, . u , loaned. :istenue of their own, ,whilst:•they were to be united for
for support. Then cense 's -t- ' -•' • .l'
consular
wee thet t
ice
certain purposeaf wag one of the It .undamental merits o ,
advanced withtipidity, con,
sid• ating the circumstances.' the 80, and the. point in which it possessed a keel actl
of the times,
little b. d be" than , MirAculous,. and the tense- vantage 'over previous measure in colonialtlegthlithoneo- 1
cieepoeteep ioseh , , een thatth
--le cothetry 'never. heard of, :(Hear, •Intars) With regard to a:, enactment 9, lawb,
any chargee being; made fox -their au-pport, but oil the tthe Right' Hone Gentlemee had-
:,littredeeetl ,the end .of.
oontrify, they were ready to, assiet • this country is her Able- wedge,,but he MuSreonfess it was the vary thin end
foreign warn and:instead 'Of
first time,. ' regiments and'service nom-' 'of,it;'Thiscitight•H9n. Gentliman, for .the
panies being sentot- tot perfeir he, duties of elicit did hbiregtilid '
. Meestiree'phatied nt.thiegojemy.to be sent
and to preserve the potent. aeo:, 't ,t. t
;')6 f ,here.i AM 'that-was ''aeCessarjr-ii4ta to 'aiibmiP,them , to.
their 'freedom!''that • thby noitt was their esthelaeta .n ?. , • ' f New Zealand • Audit would depend upon
13nlY did'ilot asts. , this the Govenor 0 . ._ .
country to find them men and dem: ' - • • '`
keep' hint whether the ColoOtal Goyhretmenten Downing-street
the peace for then:Whit they held entt nempopme to. , .
know anything of thene—(Hear, hear.) Another
"24 as h knees= that was :.to
she intruded on thetn. her little eteetds ' -s '
,and ' Merit oflhe Bill was That, hellight HoniGenelentan had
declared thOt 'they were dapaiele oeethec
,ILig
Ati n armies,',
Ives. the cthirage' hte ehront overboard another :mbherp, super
--
Departing from that-KinciPie we.,had - 4 1 In''n ento stition—that I,o'w atty, 'the supposedneoestittftif.mph
our colonial system a- princihle lef-nolse aimip. ant
efeeble- Aartiiiiithe influence of the tetieithn by infitaing a large
ness and brought on ourseliee teherPmetv.
.atenneeembers into the Legislstive
while by w4hholditig-frohe them :the nuclei:".,expeß!es,,,
.1111TziL,e._
~;hell .hehr.): Otte -rijeieed that" the, Right
freedom, we had
_deprived theM,(4 tiho Ileatttdupcelitiecnal UQ4
10 t Hon. 'Gentleman delivered :them; from the
,necessity
theehliotiki -held out. •to Mir no e
' tri" CW6ii 'to. eemigrate: 'of lotehiug•uP Crown influence, which could. 'ho. er
Englishmen were not desirous ise ,
-- emigrating to a , Ottier,purpose that- he cduld tote except 'to create discos-._on. ,
COuntty which was ruled by , n
a hciwer which; however, tent mad- .dissatietactierehe(Cheets) 'Thej.hight •I'l•
A 1.44,. Was neteatdespotisin. --(Hear.) seeh.
• han over
a, system as Gentleman again took a step in,ildtatthe W. • ding..e
con
roger ed Englishmen as. monstrous.i ..
cald' irrational; to the colonists' -Object to eee"in t
X tea rieti"kiotlitat great
and t e consequence veils .that we could not * 1' er the lande-t(Hear.).: ue her, matter
rior of ss in thiecountry •
to
emigrate- totter colonies.-- s.— inipertanee, without which he '.Woold.not
the
hi get a supe- tree •ov _ ,
(Heart hear.) They. had been rolttetant to. leave the' coneentto the details of the, it
he prepared to
welialire'.ll! 'Meat) The
free shores of England to incur' 'tint
---'
only' the Ordinary .of ower of alteratida allowed by the B
this', Bill to
hazards of .tiolheitetien, the ceetain de to •• • , f Right flon.Gencleman did not pretend ;by
fa ' t uch ne . o
. P tvataoa o -, „
rem the Ph°
' tiei lasheed Of 6 • - - their Political- litier • , •
.oreyteh..
theiopoli- except
-any Political
enectrrient f ,
He thee the colo-
tical liberties ' ' from England, file; 'went forth to 'New '1 th
,0 e colonial legislature.--(Suer.)
their '..lloAds hn the
Zettlattd or- • Neth nithe Wales to. :be deprived of them; `hitiltlegitlaturit full power to lay' _ ~ , t t
lid testier toe la*s
sad hehhape; titter alaspe of twenty
,ete
thirty years, a : work of the Imperial•Parlieinenha ~ boy imposing
portion of these- i
Wince' .rights !wetee i
geveu to thenet, spassed br it in anytintintier shitY, pied,
howd be •trabsmitted
accompanied by all the 'magniloquent . I
tanguahet who,* -,thhcondition that the alteretibOtthf'staten,-.(hietir hear.) was used when they Werct.giaithed by' P
- 41.114Pleht-r7and. , beihthefere':theY. were fitiallY e ,
rate otethe Bill, and
then they had to heal; the eargootnow so-great, wet.— he
common about ' These Went- the ' •ts• -e for one,
these : meri •
training them :and fitting 'theln._to receive a free- tonsil- On .the ground a
~
he might althea say hit ido-
tution.-o(Hear, hear.). fa So efethtt, 14 being the case, moved by his admiration-st .
t in its purity, Was dis-
h 1 C " ' • every year and • -every' mont n tvili h +v.
1 ''' toe' were kept littry'of the us-
hi-colonial •sys est , . , 1
of his own peculiar
.views, and to
under the despotic power ohhan recutive oren..4
see ed at posed to sink Lauded t :
the passing of- the _Billt—(Hear,
home, tendered there less tit I
offered these, institutions,. and lead's hellinChan
(I'
' rd ;td thi .eattits eh, the measure,
when too late they ,Wer.° to, . !._ theses their intro, hear Nowh hhitha histregt HOh. rieepd. the, Member for
duction, was attended . wit amiculty and ember, hesooneurred• Wail ~
`cliffteuittt. W44..84.150. from the rassment, and consecittencez ensued Which would Southwark' that g.r,f,ff, . te, ar 12Sart) It would create,
we' had followed • 'hictietion.--e e, , , ,L. . h ,
have been avoided if..
..,, • what he was concurrent kin :
niceigity and ,hlt .9)oJehllenable per-
not ashamed ..to -call the 'rumens of our ancestors in his opinion, an on
and kept in the .path which they struck out* and • ' ' • There'' Was to be the, central.
(Hear • hear.)* .
~, : . ,
e:
England: invested', who plexity.--. . 'chariot • togislaturg,,,,ateth the municipal
with fr..
eee ..legislittureethebe4
sent their people out fromthet
for' the , it.,,,,,d by.Parliothent. t Ile 'would Bug-.
dons, instead of training ,reception of free legihloturch lc!
the' ' requiredecfP e Right jinn. Gentleman that these municipal
institutions. 11.10 training. Y ..1748 What the e5t:40.4110 —held h swallowed op in the Oistriet legit-
had - before they-left' England, with the'•fcelin •
gof le e• latureerthou e .
L their' -8 ' legislatures
-
on'thern.° et British eitizennfreeleup. carry their lature.-h(Heart
easeret .The district
legislature
would
freedom with. themld
as they would their agricalturalino plenty •tottlte, *ha , . edits of from
strumenthe aisLi t that was the secret of oelential success,. .oely have
m• manage the a 1,200 or .1,500
4,000: lie thought unnecessary
it
lie had quid he did not rest his opiolOi on the spe.cuia.
rano, . te.,0,900 or
.. be legislatures
tion fhe h ad economists,' hut on faces The, thhhOteeterehhoesse , ,separate ,:, for this pur-
°P 1 eseP en- a • he Co 4 ".. ' - '7--, 'll was. impossible that the three legislatures could
system ethieh amid gain on t it towns was the pose, ----,„ without cetiflition. ete °
system on which. the colonizetiOn of NorthAreerica Was! wOilAutog'U"er W • • 0 confessed that
arisdietion '
anhnlintte , the Oysteih which• Met Burke etudied, end 'thin eceecurront -.1 . _ was -in his allied
examine d d'frorn the top te the ' Woot
„„ ,an comptehende'
.bottom, aau . of apprehension and. alarm, for it 'meant in the
and wnic he deSeribed'i
ct
.h his Speech on American taxa- lOng run conflicting jurisdiction. He would put his ob •
ticint when he warned Parliament against the cense- jaction in the form of this dilemma—if the district legiss
quences of establishing an administrative power over lature were fit to deal with subjects, why not let them

n, t
,

0)9

I d 5

e Company the mita of 268,000/. '
__________-___
responded exattly with BAN Bill, which-tit
So far it m-
ade a charge,
4m°Vrfwesct3gria' agratfi' r:scatrste.nh.oeitatltetgtoot4°itt a/It:l6i .znivcrliilffabtrethirtheirci
elresent
, claim on New Zealand was, first, stela ex
iseriendly; by the propertied' of iffe pro:earls Lop
olgthurereth e
salee;.
Inf. lira whitithstiOlildrben,Pca ten' to erni r '
il what was- that proaoi4Atc? Here retie rhe" opi".nion of And
iEngliTh , law, 'pincers' of the Crown in tese,......sin
aehediereneto your Lnedshipe commands we have eon.
' suiered thecasa submitted to useand are of opinion that,
regard being had to the Abt of Parliament and said in-
structions, no definite proportion of proceeds of future
,land sales in New Zealand is to be regarded as ap
prepriated to the purpose of emigration, and that--
the Crown has power from tine • to time to
. fix , and alter that proportion by instructions
' previously to the extinguishment of the debt to
the coreptiny." So that. first they were to deduct the
charges cf.surveys; sect idly, so much' of the proceeds of
the heed stileli to isetaiiiteo'Ata*gration as the Crown.
Shiciuld thick h 4 and, thirdly, they were to pay over the
rekilatte, to. the extent 0t.268,0001a1t0 the New Zealand
Company. Bate his Bal rintde a, first charge to the coin-
Party-ef ss. en acre, so that trey ware entirely altering
the pc,s4;ii.,-,1 the convert. Now,ethis was a matter of
• the extremest delicacy. They we re going very near the
old gr.onnd of calepial,. dispute, nod "revolution. This
gnes:lonOf thet*4 L,
PrP"" celestial land sales was after
:all. only another form of the qiieseipti 'OP colonial taxa-
-tion. , • Siteee Sande tleri red 'theft itsfuti xitem their gra-
HalhiettptexTmat.:e (o, teem& that were cultivated.
caeareuni try in tea .celourtepresitlint from point to
eiteia aergave value toth,eltind., 10"ellif d'ofthen ask them
Id' make the PoSitibta of theageii. 46.1 and Company
. tvorae, , lafttjeee_auid .alteyahaelaiek: richt me make it better
'tian it now is. ThereeriPtollethigaiitisiti a question of
4.lieogretitKillaaey leetvieen'' Great . Britain and New
z.,alai;ia,lttAii 4 ttky, varied
,thesipesition of the New
Zeitiatiedorapenyeleihestun caauldnotbe a consenting
party'to tll6:pvaingbf, this
,Bill during the present ses-
sion of Parliertiela' : _ ...... - ea-
' • Sir J.7-ITARTNGTOFT. suii, when the Right lion.
Gsntlermin aimed that the manner in which the settle-
'ents in AM-f-riea,were formed, ought to be the model
of all present colonis-tion be went turther than he was
eespijsed
to a _ ___l.6 ._. , ,
man 1 t
i,igtreervrit;h him. The Right Hon. Gentle-
(''s --be. oia the very peculiar circumstances in
cl2hsiaihof-twheilsieahetzleo;iies
eWefroerm'leodir
and above
very insignificant- were
mustlear. in mind
-olonie then Formed.'
in rall'parts of the worlden°n"
ho think the Right Hoe which
tocfultihaer
pthoArtion of the empire our
abc.efvethaellp,
In a question of this kind, they
es extent of their colonies
in their relations with '• and the effect which that had
manner in which those coeVI
to which their commer•lereign :countries. Neither did
Gentleman regarded the extent
head been extended, nor the
onies bad been formed by the
outpouring of their convict
leilhese topics in consealaarcration. Be only adverted
Gentlemnn .having dwelt ,
but the Right Hon. Gentleman's of the Right Honourable
at such a length;
4 BPeoch was nether au
essay oda he general principle of Con low t 1
onisiiitien than on the
immediate
der considera-
tion, which- had been made divided
The question
themselves into .two classes---one, that at 'Pik Deli. fa
the session they ought not to proceed anal; with -s- lit
measure; and another class.-of objections. was toue
the
provisions of the measure. With regard to the first
Objection, he considered that the measure was such a
ODD as caght to be immediately proceeded with, and be
'iliould endeavour to carry it this session. There was one
point which had not been noticed except by the Right
Hot.-4; Gentleman (MreGlatistene)—that he had intro-
dt6B-inte the Bill large powers for the new legislature,
when constituted,, to alter.and remould their institutions
in Such a manner as their own experience might dictate.
NY ben'Hen: Gentlemen said this Bill was oteetionable,
liftliult say,he thought they had not paid sufficient ate
tenrioa to. the peculiarities of New Zealand' in many re-
ipects, .Ii had hesn suggested that he should postpone
t 6 6=Tisori% Now, it so happened that; with regard to
"ICe, Z ,a!anil there were more • opportunities of ascer-
teining•the feelings of the colonists .:than existed with
=fegare tri any other colisey. There .were the New
Zealand' Company, the .Canterbury Association, and the
Otago Association, all interested in thewelfare of the
colony;- and it so happened that_ at this moment there are
in England a number Of gentlemen ordinarily resident in
the daily., The Hon. Baronet, the Member for South-
wark,-Said the Bill was entirely opposed .to the interests
-and feelings of the Wellingtou , colonists. He (Sir J.
Pakington) said they had expressed no dissent to the
Bill; and the gentlemen who disapproved of Sir Charles
Grey's ordinances, end who were in London, approved
of the pill. The lion. Baronet objected to the division
into provinces and provincial legislatures, but in the same
breath he said their acts would be null and void. He
alwaye listened with great respect to the opinions of the
Hen. Baronet on colonial affairs, and therefore it was
with some surprise he fourd him ,toeing sight of the
respect due to. the colonists, and using terms of ridicule
towards them. The colony of New Zealand was nut
founded round a nucleus of convicts, bat the colonists
.were of a most respectable class, men of property
and education, accustomed to_ the freedom and
the , institutions of this country.—(Hear, hear.)
You had not only Europeans, but a large native popu-
lation gradually taking their places side by side with the
Europeans, and gradually becoming equally fitted for
self-government. As to the claim in reterence to the
New Zealand Company, he had introduced it on the
principle of justice, and feeling that he would have
encountered a well-grounded objection if he had, in
giving the colony a constitution, placed that company
inn worse position than they, at present good. Nor
did he think he had given them undnekliantages, lass-
- Mita as-he had had representations from gentlemen
connected with that company that he had not done suffi-
cient for them. He believed, too, he was correct in say-
iog that the claims of the company did not rest entirety
on the Act of 1647, but a subsequent arrangement, by
which they were to have one-fourth of the value of the
land, and on the principle that the land • was worth 14
an acre, he had introduced the clause giving them sa.
an acre. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Gladstone) complained of the period of two years
which the colonists had to wait before the Acts of the
local legislature .capie into operation, in consequence
of the requitenient of ,t4e, consent of, lbw Crown to
be given—but power' Weald be taken to , send out in-
structions to the governor to transmit only for the as-
sent of the Government at home such measures as were
of a general rather than a local character. With regard
to constitution,one es the Right
Htermed these had
t
the.
Gtehnitrld "grade"anem(r in
Gladstone)the
in-
stitutions, all he (Sir J. Pakington) had done was to
reserve the power that already existed; he made no new
enactment as to the municipal institutions, but merely
reserved to the goveraing powers that authority to eau
municipal-institutions in.o existence which. had already
been conceded—and though these institutions would for
: foie ilie-prenent be subservient to the local legislature,
theymight aeticipate the day When the colony would
have,. so pecgresSed -that such an arrangniumit ml ht
be no longer necessary. With regard to the g
the 1 - i • • policy
,oggeted „e making
..egis attve cowl ii
that involved a point elective, of consid c
erable
' pertance; and be was bound to •
upon e , that. a subject, he aiffareil boths that
his Right Hon. Friend the
-.ember for Oxford that
'b itf and' alSe from, he, Eon. 13 s' tp sli Univer-
"oat.hdiiik. lie 'believed there was
finutri in the hiitoryof our celoni e .klemler for
no precedent to be
them her.- pis Right Ilian. Friend" °f tin
.elective upper
girpii his prent.,:ent from the IT- ' ' "id
'that 11Q' would
_aulEe!gton) would rather draw Sues. States. Ele,(Sir J.
-Britarre--(Sear, hear,) lia is Piededent from Great
the ntothercoantry L o that _ preferre4_, 'tha
.example of
thou ht that that would[
thiarnited States; and he
only hero ,btit' in the ,b,.1 : „2._bw-16_11 general teelibg not
as far as he wee awar' lanieve '.rin complaint existed,
the upper. chambe e, of - the nominee character of
It had bean attemptedl' of
. any one of our, ealonies.
electiie wens , he VAs aware, pi infroctuce an
-rr" Ohattlb ' k' ''' "of Good
cr at the Cape
Hope, but the mode in which it was to be
cqnstituted had -
beco created much alarm, an b
° unpopular that he -believed that it would be
necessary to change it in deferencetheeiriahes of the
colonists. And it was wllknowtno that had two
chambers both elected; it emost difficult to make pro-
vision so as to give - was n r its fall value in
the war chamber e
thedesirableness
general government. Looking at the
0f 'making the colony a-rifleettonorthe mother country,
and that the upper chamber should be a practical check
upon the proceedings of the lower chamber; looking
also at the fact that there was no precedent for an elec-
tive upper chamber, while the nominal upper chamber
had worked well, he was nos disposed to make any
change in that respect. It was for the House to say
whether it would consider this Bill in a spirit of conces-
sion, and with a desire to give the colony the benefit of
the constitution it demanded, or whether they should
outer into a contention upon every minor detail, and so
render the passing of this measure impossible during the
present session,
and entail upon the Government the
n •
lieoesaii
of introducing.a Suspension Act.
'Sirl. GRAHAM said he was not disposed to offer
any opposition to the second reading of the Bill. He
would be
prepared to consider its details in Committee,
with a view to accommodate, if possible, in the coarse of
the present session, any differences to which they might
give rise. Bat he should say that be entirely agreed
with his Bight Hon. Friend the Member for the Unaver-
ait, of Oxford in wishing to preseries the arrangement
which at present existed between the Crown and the
New Zealand Company. He thought that -the clauses
-iftheßill upon that subject contained a denentarefrom
:hal-arrangement very much in favour of the company.
He understood his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for
the Colonies to have stated that the Ministers of the
Crown had entered since the year 1847 intosomet written
engagement which varied the arrangements with the
company as 'they had been settled by statute in that
year;
• and his Right Hon. Friend had spoken of that en-
gagement as a document which he had himself seen.
Now ho thought it was absolutely necessary that that
document should bo produced, before they came to con-
sider in Committee the clauses in question •
9 and he
wished to know whether his Right Hon. F • ,
nena would
have any objection to lay it before the House?
Mr. MANGLES said he hoped the House 1
you d hear
.him for one moment on the subject of the attack which
had been made on the New Zealand Com ID e
the arrangement of the year 1847 the G' an:.
Under
to have retained the land as ase overnment were
of the sum of 268,0001.; but, if t enbrity for the payment
land to other parties, it was only fey handed over the
air that the company
should have some other gaajantee for the payment of
their claim. The document to which the Right Hon.
pints in
Gentlemn had referred was simply a definition of the
nadir pute with
land.' : respect to the distribution of the

. . .
deal with them; .i: they were, unfit) 4k,dpal with them,
power comirtilt tto them the' poer to
.do so? ~.linity of
peithewasiessentiale end a=elettr,t:iitri'bOticin and an ace
seeretie 4i4v10404 ef power, were alsO o&
power, "the.
United rate5,.W4.1e4..,:p4 ;..r as icgilr4al institutions were
eseifieernal,;!Wei iji model ef_irolitiol:wi...tlona, no such
turtle.ae -oodearreitt" fa tq 4.46ti0n ' ' f.,.5,•4•• t:,-:',%rn.--:(410ar;)
114,,.i,,,he: 61aopld.1-41616 Idowt- egiteit feeliq tt ou with t 3
~.
•!--‘)'!l4::rA,Jtirl*cl4PLl,.9.4),4lv4,o.4.)rigiti .of bliivimin thif,
cenritry lc.. P
.in Fail4rtieTit. 4 seee4ettv. gay duleg,,.,:
theittpewer fobtlier'*iet bit nO" powerlaould iiiterif: !
gatlieseeet. s _That:wee' not` {fie eeaseevuhlihes, distrie
4gislppirfs:.,they were not Ao _cxe'reito. hertaicupo Wets,
sad 'to aetee4e t„law powtzSi; as • oecasibst 'requirad, so
ethers; on 1.6 hentl'efy, they were to exercise all powers,
j whatsoever,eubject to eemeexcaptiona. Ile tlionglhishat
this was a serious objection eo-the Bill, 'find if he did not
join with, his Hon. Friend iti depretesting the progress- fit
the Bill, it was because of the large , powe of alteration
','Kieetieby the '13i11.-(1101r, hear.) His belief was that.
the. intelligent body of the , colcinists wouild themselves
hAd the remedyof their hasty and crude legislation, an&
3ie ld bring - - ••)
ou.. about that principle of. unity 'which he res .
gerdedso much.-(llettr, hear.) Another great.obj,o72,
;Lion, to the Bill was, that it requited tee cdonists to teait
for twoyeara before they could knew whelser the lawir
paSsed by them received oho sanction of the:lmperial LC7
gishitnie. Now, he would stigg est to the Bight ,Hen:
Gentleman, that if the Right H
Gni Gentlemaninserted
four months or six menthe,- it would not tulltake fristh' the.ileieecy of the measure whilst it would_ be a great
matter gamed in p
point 'of practical
(eliere hear.) Tholigh he . --id -: nee —,
egare:_.,_,. ,_
altogather,;, .must -•- ' matd not i7iah to lose the 'Bill
41nadpa,.!4t:..b;44111,74:htothhir0 were ollej..(iir„lgiQ.:
.. 0 no quite.eeseatted if is,
were pass&cl. ;Too Riiht.
(tit:tight fit--tollow,ing; in tiii,.•.iii9r°o'93 Gretitirtsne.leed'
3:anee chOtra i 'oas '
his departinente-in his epeteVeet -6,.,,' for_ •Qc.t2. lA'
laliant4o4ola Z9alandlotriphsadi or qr:i l' ireile sett. a
telligsp sas merseiree, kreeteettihettoesfateeiktelbelnyeatioti;st, th'eie ireelligihice be hiving hem ureaf cetr.d.in numb
r'
of:yeara-under arbtitrary-goreiniaient:--tho ;night Hon.'
Gentleman .had thought '.fist to pedpese 'Mit Ithey should'
.-9eli be govereed by a- auperintendent, '.0..q.,-; was-no-Flo
bp electiye-7-tliongh we .trust . persons eider our oven
*Cies to elect mayors to bait) authority over 50,000
Deople-but to be nominated by the Governor of New•
Zetelaed; and, for fear the superintendent should txesubs
jeered to the peril of starvation, he provided that each
superintendent should have a salary of 5001. a year.
Now he (Hr.. Gladstone) thought it would be a great
iftlerOventent to get rid both of the office of superinten-
&et cifid'the salary attached to it.,----(flear, hear.) lie
wished the J3ighe Hon. Gentleman to consider from what
source the political office derived its :advantages. They
were there in an assembly -of 650 gentlemen who gave
laborious services to their country. 'There were other
,offices in, this
.country connected with the' Executive'
departroent 'which. were . also laborious. ' The first
dies of officers were unpaid, the second salaried:
but who. <quid say • that the executive offices were
coveted more than . a seat in that House? And why
was' a teat in that House • coveted? Because it
was a mark of confidence on the part of a 'portion`
of their fellow-aubjeets. ' That confidence did -the work
of mosey, and it did it far better thin money-(Hears
hoar)-and if the Right .Hon. Gentleman would allow
the colonists to choose out from amongst' themselves
those whom they knew to be their best men, and to be'e
stow on .their fellow eitizais marks of their respect and
confidence, he would find that, without .his undertaking
to provide-5001. a yeer,..these offices would not only he
-Objects of licieourable competition .to the coliniiste, hut
would 'draw • from.' England 'men of a different and a
higher clue than could ever be &Awn till there was
stamped On thewhole..of - the colonial institutions the
:seine hrhadand deep character of freedom whible marked
'the institutions of the mother. country.-..(Cheers) There
Was one other !milieus which he could not help Itiladirig,'
endahat was tee question of. a nominative eseedeetive
council. In constituting his lecaelegislature,:the Right
Hop. Gentleman,•hed certainly thrown tradition over-
board; but in constituting this central legisttlnie
he had . provided : , that the legislative eutiucii'
should be eeminutivo. Et • this important par-
ticular his plan greatly degenerated from . that of
his predecessor. --'lf he understood aright ehe pulley
of Lord Grey, what he desired was that the legislative
Council._ of New Zealand should. be 'composed of se
sons eteeted by the-local legislatures:- It Wassquite
evident, they the Noble Earl derived that idea from the
`United States of America; and; as he before said, in
going to the United States for hints for the improve-
ment .of CM colonial system, -the Noble Earl resorted
to the. best fountain.. If there were one thing in the
constitution of the
•United States which, more than all
others, entitled the authors of that astonishing work to
the gratitude of. their countrymen and to fame as wide
and lasting as the world, it was the system which
they adopted for the election of their senate, ithro-
clueing the principle of election, net by the, number
of their < population, but by the separate states, and
thus providing a principle to counteract the' noire
principle of poptilar election in the chambers. He
could not help paying a tributd of praise to the
Noble Earl for choosing that plan of constructing his
legislative council. Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman had
in that particular fallen back on the ordinary practice;
he proposed a nominative legislative council. He (Mr.
Gladstone) thought the Legislature Council ought to be
elective. He would illustrate his vie* by referring to
what was taking place in North America. If they traced
the annals of Canada they would find that during the
last few years there had boon several energetic move-
ments, the object of which was to supplant and get rid
of the system of nomination. How had those movements
'been made and defeated? Those movements had been.
made by what was called the Conservative or Tory party
in Canada; they had been defeated by the Liberal partY:
They had been defeated for a reason similar epithet by
means of which &Chancellor of the Exchequer met a
proposal to repeal a tau, nimely, by showing that it was
not convenient to do what was asked at that moment.
They had been defeated because the Liberal party, being
iti possession of power, acted on the welbenderstood
principle, "Let well alone." They had to deal With an
intractable Legislative Council, composed of noinineea:'
.They swamped them; a majority was converted into
a minority, ' and the council was , brought into
harmony with the 'assembly. The same thing took
place -in 'Nova 'Scotia. There was exactly the same
division of opinion, The Conservative party Alex.° for
au elective council, 'and the Liberal patty succeeded in
defeating them, though only by a majorityof one. Let
them take a homely view of this question. It was not
difficult to bring the House of Peers up to London, but
it was exceedingly difficult to bring the members of a
legislative council to Toronto, much more difficult to
bring them to Halifax, and more difficult still to' bring
them to Wellington, or whatever plaCe might be' the
capital of New. Zealand. It musehe recollected that in
thestecolonies they hadictot men of large means, Then of
leisure; and men who were almost horn to politicall pure
suits, and perfectly 'willing to bear their own expeuseie
In the coloniesit was:, found that in order to male, mei
do the work, it was- necessary to pay, them, to enable
them to beer the expenses of their journeys, absence from
their ordinary puesuits, and the loins 'of the profits which
those pursuits would bring thein.• Now the coloniSts
,would stand that payment-when it wits givee to th
presentatives; but they wotild net ;stead it when
given .to nomineithee(flear.) The7Right Hon.
man must know that the' GovernMent of Caned
sometime almost. brotight t 6 a dead lock-that the!
often
.a greet ifileulty in getting a entoetusenf te
lative Council' to pus' the reqeisitameasureie - . JI,,
Might'be the honoue 'of the neinfeadon, the meet
the Council could/not live upon it; they could not
to absent. themselves from home without being pai. Le a
the colonists would in no case consent to PaY4,sbnj
long es they held their semi bylimmitletl9n: hinh
/r
truth Was, that one. df ' those valgar superstitions.
1 it was necessary so-protest-- agsixst year after year until
they had been altogether exploded, wasatlippeoiledersi ittihoins
that it *as right to have a bedyesesf_nmen .
r i g the free actihn of
country for the purpose of..reep,
'Colonies:-(Hear, hear.)
.popular ,sympathies 'en ta
t
Certainly, f'fi•l .were . of the colonies, e that this country had, {with
h interests diltinct
'respect to .the 'weeks o
Worn those: of t
he - inhabitants, it would 'be acting on
sound principles, it would be right even at the hazard of
providing for the ' •
, somejealousy.and 'difficulty, is Main-
' tenancet of those interests, But it was not so. .It had
ne interest apart from theirs; that which .contributed to
their -greettness, their strefigth, and their expansion,
was the interest of this country. That there should be
an infittence from home was not merely one of those, idle
errors which might lie by, as in a lumber room and do
little harm, it was an error pregnant with michiele oe
every kind, anciaehicis tended to keep tip that . ' system of
intereeetiou in andlonies- which • was so prolific of
.eapeesee tremble vexation,. and retarded''
areas of colonial enterpriee. For these ucl
the . pro-
.sons it would be most' gratifing t • ts- It' the similar Fee-
-0 Ith fl. Govern-
ment would reconsider theyiiftessi . . .
on of a elective Council
and introduce into their Bill a Proposal similar to that
of .the Noble Earl (Earl Grey),
hAaother point to
which lie must:refer had referenc
Company. The Hen, Member for
ftoort
Le New Zealand
eonainster had
spoken of its•honourable intentions, and • corrupt motives. He had not the slightest its freedom from
test that statement; he had :not the 1118 h
to eon-
of the patriotic objects of the d. slightest doubt
company. At the same time he slightest
of that
he looked upon companies formed mast confess that
poses, when they once -got tor colonial par-
mereantile business of b-• • Out
of
the purely
rut In an old e country into thesoil g g the capital of
o
f a new one, with
incurable jealousy, As long ag
Smith,
,companies in.that.positi --o
as the days of Adam
kreii;est obstacles to colonial were branded as the
dvanc
They had one remarkable instance, that ement.-(Hear.)
of e Hudsoifts
.Buy. Company, which'spread a death shade th
over an enor-
mous region.. If they Were to have any home govern-
ment at all in a colony let it b
'-slot it be- a government
whiche the Queen's Governmentnd
with which, hey could
discuss
sat in that,h9ll of
day, every colonial question.
a Thesereel and in the
e light
which
were shrouded in obscurity, ' companieow,
spirit
necessarily crept, and which into which a narrnd
, wore
narrow,'he must confess he lookedecame ni9tr:thegreate,"
upoh with
jealousy. ,He knew there toe the rule.,
worn exeeptiOnesson
New schemes and doctrinesed. by the
had Veen br moment
New Zealand
. ' Company and ho did not for a .
and
'mean to draw a comparison between that company-
the nucleon's Bay Company.-(Criesof e gear, hear.")
. .
torial
What he said was, that there too much of tern
power involved in the W
the New Zealand Com-
pany, scheme of
frightful; and
that the waste of money. had been
he
was itfraid thii both to the directors and the share-,Tho
holders the concersehad proved most unprofitable.
question who was-in the right-and who was in the wrongo
Was One a great deal too intricate for' •
p yhi 112
ttodein'2ter367olT bet the result was that utter thi' c-J- mnell.hi ..
„„id,268,00‘..• .._.,1 thou.„
.they;
there still remained un
r - • ositionef the New Zea-
ought not to alter the pecuniary P
him that• they mate-
land C and it
ompany,
position
ppeared to
by this Bill. By the
riallY altered- their
upAct of 1847, it was providedthat there should be charged
of that company,
upon the land an dpaid to the New Zealand

-it rB-

lentle-
L:kitsit

41,4#7
Po'4
116ra
, and -1

pSir GRAHAM asked whether his Right Hen.
riend the Secretary for the Colonies would have uny
objection to produce the document?
Sir J. PAKINGTON replied that he was ready to
produce it. He should observe that it merely Contained
the mode agreed on between Lord Grey and the New
Zealand Company for carrying out the arrangement of