The Sun.
London, England, 1852-02-18 00:00:00

BILL.

The House went into Committee on this Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR objected to the clause
empowering barristers to act with attorneys, and said
there were two points for the consideration of the House,
namely, how far it would be desirable to allow barris-
ters ti praw ise without the intervention of attorneys,
and how far it was likely that a new order in the protes-
sion would arise from attorneys asseciatirg themselves
with barriA,rs and practising as advocates. He bad
beard persons from America speak of the ,uperior order
maintained in our courts to that which existed in those
of the United btates; and they attributed it to the fact
of barristers there being allowed to perform the functions
of attorneys. He objected to barristers acting as
. attor-
neys, and he also objected to attorneys performing the
duties of barristers, for it was said that a certain2(Aaa'et
of attorneys would usurp the earsisted
as advocates. If his Noble and Learned Friendshould
place of barristers, and
in moving the clause he objected to, he propose
an amendment to it.
y court but the
Lord BROUGHAM said that in
county courts a barrister could apreeavattetr.
client, without the intervention
.on attorneys t ruete The a
g in county courts
prohibition of barristers
practising
was first made
without being instructed by.lionn
now was whether they
in 1846; and the only qtr.s-.iun, or place county courts
should continue that pro.b,_o"
h the other courts, great and
OQ the same footing
tweriAin future to professional ftel.
little, leaving this matter by county courts alone should be
ing. He did not see why
If the prohibition bad never been
that it would not LOW he
such de-
sirablethiS
admitted subjected to
enacted, it was
; but it was said that by repealing
to
dolpaol sanction would be given to the practice
a clause, a legal sanction
independent of attorneys," •
of barristers
he did not.believe would ho the east) it a strong
" This,
co wever,
pinion w
expression of c
inconsistent
forth that it was not de-
sirable, and would be inconsistent with professional ~
, tiquette. It was now the practice for attorneys to act
i as advocates cot only n county courts, but in 'various
other courts, greatly to the injury of the bar. Barristers
were told by attorneys to take briefs et their peril in
county courts; arid, uuless they le:d a..tained eminence in
their pioftssior, they were cff,ctually excluded from
county courts, fur if they took britfa in them they would
not get employed at the sessions and asiz s. An attor-
ney, at a public meeting at Fieemalona' Tavern, the
other day, said that as the attorneys had sufficient power
over barristers, they would not employ them in other
Coattail it they did not consent to divide the guinea with
attorneys ethers they took briefs in county court!, One__
hundred and fifty barristers, and among them many m",i,
of eminence, had signed a declaration on this subject, and
he represented their interests on this occasion. A bun"

dred others, among them seven Queen's Counsel, had ex-
pressed themselves in favour of this matter being left. to
the etiquette of the profession; but they objected to sign '
the declaration to that effect, because they did not wish
their names to be published for professional reasons.
The Attorney-General had also expressed his concur-
rence in the prayer of the memorialists, that they should
be allowed to practise in the county courts as in other
courts. Lord Denman was of the same opinion, and had
written to him that morning urging him to persevere in
the retention of the clause giving to barristers the privi-
lege they claimed. And when he stated that of 80,000
suits commenced in 1840, 2,000 alone came to trial. ver-
dict, and judgment, and that in the county courts 6,000
cases a year were now tried, involving amounts from 201.
to 501., he thought their Lordships would agree with him
that it was a cruelty, in this state of the law business,
the profession should be excluded, as they now were,
from the county courts.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL considered that the distinctions
at present maintained between barristers and solicitors
were of the highest importance to the due administra-
tion of justice, and ought not on any account to be in-
terfered with. He feared that if the employment of
barristers were permitted without the intervention of
attorneys, a set of advocates might spring up. either
not barristers at all, or who, if they were, would be of
the worst class of the profession. It should be recol-
lected that attorneys were under the direct control of
the court, and could be struck off the rolls in case of
any misconduct or irregularity. A barrister would not
be so controllable, as he could only be disbarred by ap-
plication to the benchers, and after a long previous in-
vestigation. It was from a foresight of these disad-
vantages that clause 91 had been introduced, and,
having been once introduced, and having worked so ad-
vantageously, he feared that mi.chievous cons' quences
would ensue if it were now repealed, because it would go
forth that that House was anxious to encourage a tree
trade in law, and that all who chose might come forward
ae advocates. It was only very shortsighted persons wto
declared that the State could not interfere to control
matters of this kind, in which the lives and properties of
mankind were so deeply interested. The gentlemen to
wh. m his Noble Friend had referred were men of high
in.ellige' ce and of unblemished honour; but there were
in the profession men of a very different kind, ready to
set every scruple at defiance, and who, tar their own sel-
fish ends, would seriously embarrass the course of jus-
tice in these courts. His Noble Friend had referred to
a very eminent member of the profession, the Attorney-
General; but it should le remembered that that Gen-
tleman was actuated by the most anxious zeal for the
interests of his order, while the duty of their Lordships
was to look only to the public benefit. The Attorney-
General proposed that in all suits above 201. a barrister
should be employed, and that he should have pre-
audience, which would lead to this in county courts, that
in every suit the employment of two law agents would
be necessary. He believed that it was for the benefit
of the public that the distinction between barrister and
ettorney sticr!cl he preserved, and therefore should sup-
port the amendment of the Nobly Lord on the Woolsack.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that if he under-
stood his Noble Friend aright, he had stated that se-
veral persons had signed a paper to the effect that there
should be no intervention between barrister and client.
Lord BROUGHAM—That the enactment of '46
should be repealed for the purpose of giving a bar to
the county courts.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—If he understood his
Noble Friend aright, there were 100 barristers who had
signed, and 150 who had not signed, that paper.
Lord BROUGHAM—His Noble Friend had quite
misconceived him, The facts were quite the reverse.—
(A laugh.) His statement was that 150 had signed,
and 100 had declined to sign.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—WeII, there were 100
who had not signed, and he believed his Noble Friend
might have very much increased the number had he
tried.

Lord BROUGHAM—But the 100 highly approved.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—Then, if they ap-
proved, why had they not signed? His experience led
him to believe that the bar were by no means desirous
of obtaining the protection so generously offered them
by his Noble Friend. What was his argument? That
the attorneys had entered into a combination, and de-
clared that they would not employ, either at sessions or
assizes, any barrister who appeared in a county court.
His Noble Friend's object was to protect the bar from
that combination, and his means were, to allow them to
appear in a county court without having been previously
instructed by an attorney. Why, that would oppose
them more directly to the effects of the combination. If
their Lordships calculated the number of cases carried to
the county courts, and then extracted the portion in
which counsel would be employed directly from the client,
they would find the emoluments such as to support only
a very inferior bar. Ho feared the members would
hardly belong to the more respectable grades in the
profession. Ho thought it a matter of the highest im-
portance that the barrister should not communicate'
directly with his client, because if he did he must com-
municate also with the witnesses, who, as a rule, were
never admitted to consultation. He hoped it never would
be said that the House of Lords had sanctioned such a
practice.
Lord BROUGHAM—Recommended by Lord Den-
man.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—Even recommended
by Lord Denman.
Lord BROUGHAM—And Lord Lyndhurst.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—His Noble Friend
might quote as many more names as he liked, but he
feared that if barristers were permitted to act without
the intervention of attorneys in these courts, they would
have a class of men frequenting the neighbouring public-
houses, and picking up grounds of defence in all sorts of
impossible caber, and setting up claims which never could
have entered any honest head. Was not such a state of
things calculated to tarnish the adminis ration of justice?
He believed that if the proposed privilege were conferred
it would prove a serious miEchiet both to the public and
the bar.

Lord BROUGHAM said he had been totally misap-
prehended by his Noble Friend. His Noble Friend's
argument was based on the assumption that he (Lord
Brougham) was an advocate for barristers going into all
courts without the intervention of sttorneyr. He had
proposed no such thing, he had merely proposed that
they should be protected from a gross and crying abuse.
One word as to the result. Did his Noble Friend sup-
pose that itbe hundreds of respectable men who were
victims to this combination would quietly lie down and
die, without an attempt to defend themselves? Perhaps
they might reconsider and alter the etiquette of the su-
perior courts. Etiquette was more or less a matter of
fancy, and it was exceedingly likely that finding them-
selves shut out by statute from all participation in the
business of those courts, they would reconsider the eti-
quette which alone ties them up in the superior courts.
If they did so, he ihiught that even his Noble Friend
would hardly venture to legislate against their deter-
mination.

The elhuse proposed by the Lord Chancellor was then
agreed to, and the 13111 was reported to the House.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 17.
The SPEAKER took the Chair a few minutes before
Four o'clock.

PRIVATE BILLS.

The following Bills were read a second time, and
ordered to be committed:
Barnsley Gas.
Cork and Bandon Railway.
Dudley Waterworks.
Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ardrossan Railway.
Imperial Peat and Parafine Company.
Preston and Garstang Road.
Rotherham and Pleasley Road.
Stockton Extension and Improvement.
Tees Conservancy.
York, Newcastle, and Berwick Railway (Deviation of Bishop
Auckland Branch, &c).
York, Newcastle, and Berwick Railway (Deviation of Thirsk
and Malton Branch, &c).
ALDBOROUGrfi HARBOUR OF REFUGE AND
IMPROVEMENT BILL.
The second reading of this Bill was postponed for a
month.
CHELTENHAM STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATE
BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this Bill,eeond
Mr. G. BERKELEY moved that it be readt
vasiz nn
time this day six mouths. There
paid magistrates residing in Cheltenbwaetnr:lwt
ie and as the
their (tittles with Efficiency and imp Mil Mil he hoped
inhabitant raiepay. rs did not desireht
to the expense of
the House would not put the boroug
going before a Cumulate° to contesttetne
Who discharged
amendment, and
years, he could
Mr. HALLE WELL. seconded
rounds for this
statehav i having
positivelyresided intheehreeltwenehretunnfoorvsseivideragi
eneasurs. that neither of
this Bill were re •
the Members who endorsed p .sent; it
looked somewhat suspicious, and convinced him acme-
Mr. HUME thought it extraordinary
thing was wrong. He should, therefore, rote for the
amendment.
The amendment was carried without a division, and
the Bill was ordered to be read a second time this day
six month&

PETITIONS.
Mr. MOODY presented a petition from Kerry, pray-
ing for an amendment of the Irish poor.laws.
Mr. FORSTER presented a petition from Berwick
against the post.horse duty.
Lord C. MANNERS presented a petition from a place
in Leicestershire, praying that the annual grant to May-
nooth may be abolished.
Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a petition from
Marylebone, praying for the repeal of the post-hosrae
duty. Also a petition from the solicitors of Kentish
town, praying for the repeal of the attorneys' certificate
duty.
in favour of the enfranchisement of .
from the Suuday-
Mr. CARD SWELL presented a pectoitrioynhofridorm. Brighton
of scalar
Mr. COJ3DEN presented a
school teachers of Manchester in f
education.
presented a petition from Wisbeach
Mr. M. GIBSON p pcti.tiou_svour
complaining
amendment of the law relating to
and prating for an fun
of the conduct of the Stamp authorities,
newspaper stainn‘.
TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE.
BON gate notice th'it this day fortnight
Mr. M. GIB -
his motion in reference to the paper
he should
and tilould bring on
du
0 stamp imposed on newspapers.
ties
THE MILITIA.
Lord pALMERSrON gave notice that on bringing
up the report of the resolutions agreed to in Committee
ester
with regard to the amendment of the Militia
should move to add after the word .. amend-
dthuhe)' e word i 0 consolidate." He should also move to
loint:9 the' word " local" with the view of having a mea-
sure brought in which shall provide the means of de-
ff•rcr, in the unfortunate event of war, not for England
only but for all parts of the United Kingdom.—(Chees.)
IIAYN 00TH.
Mr. SPOONER postponed his motion on the subject
of Maynooth to this day fortnight.

lONIAN ISLANDS.
Mr. HUME a!so postponed motile on the subject
of the Icniau Idands.

THE ARMY.

Colonel CHATTER TON asked the Secretary at War
,f he intended to recommend the discontinuance of the
deductions to which officers of the cavalry are subject in
paying for the forage of their regimental chargers, kept
for the public service, whilst other mounted officers in
the service received an allowance for that purpose. The
Gallant Member also put other questions respecting the
pay of officers in the cavalry and other regiments.
Mr. VERNON SMITH, in reply, said be had been
so short a time in office that his attention had not yet
been directed to the subject, but he could assure the
Gallant Colonel that, his best energies and abilities
should be given to all questions affecting the contort
and interest of the army.
LOSS OF THE AMAZON. .
Lord C. HAMILTON asked the President of the
Board of Trade, if he had any objection to lay on the
table of the House a ciopy of the report and of the evi-
dence taken before the Committee appointed by the
Board of Trade to inquire into the circumstances at-
tending the loss of the Amazon steam-ship.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the report as well as the
evidence were in the hands of the printer, and he hoped
to lay them on the table in a day or two.
CABUL WAR.
Sir HENRY WILLOUG EIBY asked the President of
the Board of Control whether he would
place 013 the
table of the House copies of the entire dispatches in,f,
Captain Burnes (Sir Alexander Burnes) to W. 'EI.
Macnaghten, Esq., the Secretary, with the Governor;
General of In tie, dated from Cebu!, the 4th day orf
October 1837, sth day of October 1837, 314, °of
October 1837, 26th day of January 1838, 51.0 "";
March 1838, 13th day of March 1838, 24th day of MUCK
1838, 25th day of April 1838, and froin Islalabad 30t
day fit April 1838. He intimated that his reason for puttillg.
the question was that it been stated in a work recently PI;
lished that the dispatches previously laid on the "'—
had been garbled.
Mr. FOX MAULE said it was never pretended
that the dispatches as laid before the House wer:
entire ; only such extracts from them were ~.givese
as the Government thought would inform the
with reference to the policy pursued at Ca" be
Already two discussions had taken place on the elito
ject in the Heuse, and it was not his intention _d
lay the dispatches in extenso before the public, n
again raise up a question which, with all its icePrter
faults and realised misfortunes, was now ma'
of history, and ought not to be revived.
EXTENSION OF THE CAPE TERBIT°11,1:: of
Mr. ADDERLEY asked the Under Secretary,{ 10'
State for the Colonies whether the Government h.emr.,
diction in South Africa to the Equator,
preparation the Bill for the extension of British J,Lirl,"
stated his intention to introduce this session, too the
patch to Sir Harry Smith, given in the papers- aae
assumption of the Orange Sovereignty, presented t
House on the 19th day of May last? did an'
Mr. FREDERICK PEEL said Earl Grey roe
flounce to Sir H. Smith that it was his intention to P.,0
which Earl t7drift,
pose an Act for extending the British jurisdiction to cad
Equator, but he had not thought it advisable to Eastern
with the measure while war continued at the glastep
frontiers. As the war was not yet terminated n°
had been taken for the preparation of the measure.
THE MEGIERA. Dort.
Admiral BOWLES moved for copies of all ren`der
received by the Board of Admiralty or. the Colnips-,
'bip
in-Chief, stating the condition of her Majestythe
Megmra, atter having embarked troops at Dover far
Cape of Good Hope. L.„O to
Sir F. BARING said be should have no objee't toff
the return, but he thought after the attacks wthat he
been made on the Admiralty on the subject'
ought to have an early opportunity of making 5u
. .
answer. to them. lOW
r. ROEBUCK said that having had some comet the
cations with a Gallant Admiral, the colleagueso on
Hon. Baronet, he wished to put certain (Pesti° ' '
this same matter, and if the Hon. Baronet bad no
obi°
lion he would put them now.
Sir F. BARING said that he should shortly hi;they
make some statements on the subject, and would rattle Hon. and Learned Gentleman waited until thou
The return was then agreed to.
THE METROPOLITAN CENSUS RETubnover
Sir G. GREY said that he wished to state, in ri"ight,
to a question which had been put to him the odor 1
that having made inquiries from the Registrare"eolitan
he had ascertained tnat the returns of the Metroporrect
Census laid upon the table of the House were flic mod
as regarded London. The copying clerk who. Prtetrad of
them had )nserted the male population only, 1118.ded re'
the gross ',mount of male and female. An amen
turn would very shorty be laid on the table.
MILITIA SUBSTITUTES. „AT
In answer to a question from Mr. M. GlSpu'of the
Mr. FOX MAULE said that by te proviej°3
Bill introduced last night substitutes would° be per'
mitted under certain modified circumstances.

Mr.
HENRY
HSAEVRIBNEGRST 11 iv'
ing resolution, of which he had given notice. _
" That this House has observed with the cortic,
BroAseNKtoStn. eye the f().-°.....
regret
tinued neglect of her Majesty's Goverweent for
fufil their promise of introduciug whichlthosa
tee regulation ofheir
important institutions ma Savings
enabled preserve t
ybe te, .a 0 neon-
hold on the confidence of the country, °nu a -II-
e
the Banks, V
idenca
rap-moat be thus given to the industry and pro/ ;he
of the working classes." He said that, cousideringd
to
important nature of the
_subject to which begswsbeu
ht
call the attention of the House, it Wigli tbogo.
that it would have been more expedient bed it beenn la ,
traduced by some Member of greater experience :liar heir!.
stronger claims upon their attention. 'The peculiar
ever 4°
eumstance in which the subject stood must, how Lad
his apology. In 1848 a Select Committee Ives aPlwe::00
to inquire into the subject, and at the end of the s
nines
reported that it had not had time topursue their ine,in le li:,
as far as was necessary, but recommended that re
quirt' should be continued in the ensuing anione. ,__
commended, also, that some measure should rs
introduced into the House on the subjeo . It's'
1849 propositions were brought forraranood,
renew the Committee, which the Government c.'l;)‘,r 10
but on two occasions they were left in a Mine" icsielf
18 50 the Government did bring in a Bill which ce _ hot,
_did not encounter any opposition in that proceedgouse,'ed
from some cause cr other, was never hoe
witb;and since that time no steps h_slihieet.
takenTh by
the Government to legislate on the :‘, fears
e first establishment of savings' banks dated 4' toter
a.egCl, but it was not until 1817 that the LegislattSelserl
i red with them, at which time there were 70 iobei;grat
four in W
ales, and four in Ireland. On the Chore
establishment the trustees were responsible for t . 00
depositors, so that as long " they were solveatr,
eorse
could be no loss. The enactment of 1844, bovrayssesibilikl,
Meted an entire change and destroyed their resin' gensee
r. Tidd Pratt stated before a Committee of tnytro ever
in 1848, that the Government had no
d more °,hey hod
than ' hill
the trustees and actuaries of savings banks went Of
over a private gentleman in the manage on who, °11:1
own private affairs. Thus these bodies of ws.ohequerti
the admission of the Chancellor of thee P
avoet)
habitually neglected their duty, war: as of salsa
with enormous amounts of the StlVleb
ent it
POT, and yet an Act of Patt° neibiliti'
been passed to absolve them from all lyesP°,„o. that
These few facts, he thought, were sufficient to so_' The
some amendment was necessary in the laW•
_oil..
Hon, Member next corcplained of the conduct 0,,a,
means of leaco.r
Tidd Pratt, who, he said, had I? e.
e nde ilititgbaetion,_to the se';,;
parties to greet ionsd eneof adepobitors. He had ha :0
ous injury a ..like a breach of priefle's
guilty of something _
an. s
E, .
ad .
_pi
, in the 6
in regard to several
.1s k .
into h
trot
opposed an inquiry the Cairo.' 01
instance,
balance-sheetsas don
Bank, though the sent to the laa de.
Debt Office showed a gradual decreasing in
neieney, and though when it failed 0
the defalcations amounted to no less
1848, 1 ill
sum than 64,6894 There had been similar failures:,
Rochdale, Brighton, Hull, Aylesbury, and othert°lll.
In scene cases the trustees had generously and no
nof
made good the losses; but in th s the deposito-
had been the sufferers, and he had others
himself
bees a wit;
ness of the misery and wretchedness which these hria
failures had Occasioned
depositorSi
It was, therefore, ~ among the unfortunate.
teens °
the public pertectly obvious that the in is'
called for lost the M ;
same protection agts
management and i • hogh°
the insecurity of savings banks t
kingdom.
The (lEt ei,Rtated'
,_ - s
ecie;
I,u, reply to the Hon. Member's observations respor,
"1e personal
. character and responsibility 014,0er,
Tidd Fret' that DS e"' a
, he was not a Goverutae
~..,; es
but s, •
as simply named in the Act of Partisan", in to
person whom the trustees or depositors might Arbitrate
examine into the affairs of a bank, or to lied
On
between them, and without he was 50 °e d the
he bad neither power to visit a bank, nor ha Laded
Government power to send him. As reghe dr
the Cuff',: street Bank, when he was called in hY,. ,tare
positors in 1831 he was utterly deceived as to tu:01010
of its affairs, but on that occasion be gave ed the
advice which, if followed, would have preveo;epeet
catastrophe which ensued. The Honourable bat be
blamed him for not altering the law, a rem
introduced a Bill last session which would 1351- but
died many of the defects now complitined :00064
it was opposed by a great portion of th' opens
What was asked for was, that the entire ros°ll,grsteell
of these banks should be in the hands of the,o-• re;
and managers, and that Government sheltie t, ens
sponsible, and to that he could not coast 0
on that account no agreement eem 0%0.
come to with those who were ,3 bo sr
to have some enactments on this subject. It won' beg,
that in 1850 Government was obliged t° eon'
iii •
dun many of the Bills which it had introduced,
__0100•
sequence of the press of business at the end of the Woos
and he thought it was scarcely possible to ono
passed a Bel of this nature. Since that dreet
additional information had been obtained of : he
importance relating to this subjects whi° ea
was convinct d would tend to mprove
re tee
mt assure submitted to the House. He could assualci be
House that he was quite as anxious as toy one a' aped
to are some beneficial measure passed, and he 000
before the end of the session to introduce and 13''
which would give full satisfaction to all partiein,. the
Mr. REYNOLDS thought tha t
itheh House el% for
counts:, hsd some right to blame GOI,OIOIOOO
the delay which had occurred in the introduction i% 0,0
measure on the subject of savings banks. :I:Ltiegnt
glad, however, to hear that the Right Hon. Gtsolf I°
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had pledged brws
bring in a Bill this session, for so he bad um"; weed
°o full
the. Right Hon. Gentleman's speech. He . ,
the e.iurie taken by the Government in not glo°r6evs
remuneration to the depositors in the Cuffe-strou', od
ings Back, for the losses which they had isetqs;e_°►ifida
also etrongly disapproved of the conduct of ha_rhook
Pratt with respect to that and other esti:3g"

,11

With respect to the contemplated Bill it was to give,
permanent satisfiction, it trust epoly a r• medy tb the
great evil of event of security f. r the deposits. Let the
Government have the entire reenonsability, and appoint, the
officers of the banke, fie would not. however, have them
dispense with the local trustees. rever a bank was
established, he would have the clergy, the gentry, and the
merchants of high character in the loeala y asked to give
their voluntary attendance to the superintendence of the
affairs of the bank—they should not be responsible, but
the officers who received the money across the counter
' should be held responsible, and should give adequate
security, and a sufficient number of inspectors should be
appointed, who should transmit reports to London by
every post as to the proceedings of the bank. . The dit- I
ference betweete2l. 15s. per cent _ which the depositors
"were willing to accept, and 31 per cent., which the
Right Hon. Gentleman received on the 30,000.0001. de-
posited in the Bank, would give a margin of 10s. per
cent., which would defray all the expenses of this addi-
tional machinery. If the Hen. Gentleman who intro-
duced the motion interpreted the promise of the Chart-
tailor of the Exchequer in the same way as ho did, he
would urge him to rest contented with that promise, end
withdraw the motion.
Mr. P. SCROPE thought that nothing was more im-
Portant than putting the savings banks upon a sate
foundation, and ho trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman
Would really fulfil that undertaking.
Mr. S. CRA.WFORD said that his constituents had
suffered greatly from the non•security of saving.; b inks,
and the Government were much to blame for not having,
in the four years just past, provided some measure of
security. The working classes felt that their interests
had b;-en neglected in the matter. Ile thought there
could be no rod security while there was a divided re-
sponsibility. The Government should either take the
whole responsibility upon themselves, or make the trus-
tees legally responsible. He would support the motion
of the Hon. Gesaleman-
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought it most desirable
that there should be a real, legal, and substantial ie-
sponsibility established, and not a nominal one.
Mr. GRA. CT AN placed very little confidence in the
Ron. Member's (Mr. Herbert's) statements, unless he
brought in a Bill on the subject.
Mr. DISRAELI said his Hoc. Friend had brought
forward his resolution less with a view to local objects,
than in reference to the whole system of savings banks
iii the kingdom. The importance of the subject could
not therefore be exaggerated, especially when it was re-
collected how very much the condition of the working
classes was influenced by such institutions. At the same
time, however, though he held his Hon. Friend perfectly
justified in bringing forward the motion under discus-
sion, after the frank statement of her Majesty's Govern-
ment that there should he legislation on the subject, and
from the tone of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr.
Piaraeligathered early legislation—he trusted his Hon.
Friend would not, under the circurnstaecee, press the
Houle to a division.
• Mr. HERBERT would not, under the circumstances,
divide
the House.
The resolntion was accordingly withdrawn.
INVESTMENTS AND INDUSTRY OF THE
HUMBLER CLASSES.
Mr. SLANEY then moved for a Standing Commit-
tee, or unpaid Commission, to consider, suggest, and
report from time to time, measures to remove legal
and other obstacles which impede the investments and
industry of the humbler classes. The direction of
the investment and labour of the people was of the
first
consequence. In remote antiquity both were
directed to useless monuments—in the middle ages
to fortresses and feudal palaces; in modern times to pic-
tare -galleries and public gardens. At a later period a
new light broke in on the world, when the middle
Classes invested their savings in a manner useful to
themselve and beneficial to their country. At the pre-
sent time it was more than ever necessary to remove all
obstacles to the investment of labour. In the last cen-
tury the Duke of Bridgewater devoted his large fortune
and his great abilities to the construction of canals.
T •
Elle was almost the first investment in which the middle
classes were permitted to join. After this and in the
Present day came railways, in which 300 millions were
invested within the last twenty years. But as this
source was now saturated with capital, it became neces-
sary to relieve every other source that was open for the
;lame purpose. During the war there was the public
t°an, which for twenty years absorbed millions of capital
which might as well be entirely lost or sunk as it were
in the sea, and which was not for a moment to be com-
Pared in point of benefit to the country or to the in-
'resting classes with railways and with canals. At this
moment there was an accruing capital in the country of
75 millions a year, and it therefore behoved Parliament
to liberate all useful and advantageous sources of inveat-
anent by affording every possible facility to the invest-
Meat of labour. At present there were three portions
Of the law which stood opposed to such invest-
men tie The reports of the Committees which he (Mr.
S.) had obtained specified these difficulties. The part-
nership
Person law was the main difficulty, inasmuch as each
a under its provisions was liable to the loss of his
way
property in case of failure. Then in the event of
-w
• y dispute occurring among the shareholders or part-
Ile", there was no chance of a decision being obtained
Unless they went into the Court of Chancery. This
oUrt amounted in fact, to a denial ofjustice. The rule of the
of Chancery besides, was that redress could only
'?.e obtained through the dissolution of the partnership.
4.t Was bad enough, therefore, for the rich, but it was
• worse for the poor. The law as it stood prevented the
Investment of large masses of capital in useful enter-
prises, and deterred intelligent men from seeking to pro-
mote the public benefit in connexion with their own ad-
vantage. A commission was appointed in 1837 to in-
quire into the subject of unlimited partnership; and the
late Lord Ashburton gave very striking evidence against
that law, The partnerships of almost all other coun-
tries were founded on limited liability France,
Rolland, America, enjoyed such a law; England
stood alone in retaining the law of unlimited lia-
Some years since her Majesty was em-
Powered to grant charters of limited liability by
Orders in Council; but these charters were so clogged
with conditions and so burdened with heavy fees that
they became, in point of fact, impracticable of obtainment.
This difficulty was severely felt by several benevolent
individuals who sought to establish common lodging-
-4:llses and other useful institutions for the poor. The
arter for lodging-houses cost no less than 1,2004
ree times the cost of an Act of Parliament; but if
had not been obtained, the whole fortune of the par-
te% would be liable. The Committee, of which he (Mr.
.11;337) was chairman, had accordingly recommended
a reonction in the cost of obtaining these charters, and
urther facilities in their acquirement. There was
another advantageous object which might be effectually
cuiltrried
aa out if there were adequate powers, by the
gag
and poorer classes, such as roads, bridges, and
7,r,4 -works, water-works, and other local matters. At
7a:sent there were at least fifty acts to that effect, but he
".4r. Slaney) saw no reason why one general Act should
ziet be •
efte., Passed to comprehend all these Acts, as was the
een; In respect to agricultural improvements, enclosing
ett,tn,°ns, &c. The third head to which he called the
the -11;4°11 of the House was the desire that existed among
tierveticlustrious classes to form co-operative societies
Ug themselves for their own advantage and benefit.
at L.had received information as to the "people's mill "
to seeds, which he was informed was in a most satisfac-
rtiger,edition. The poorer classes should bo encou-
aoetea_°Y affording them every facility to form these
pla,—"t• But as the law stood, they were one and all
erid4 Under the unlimited liability law of partnership,
flue the Court of Chancery in prospect. The copse
was, that no rich man could assist them if he
wa`e, se disposed, without incurring the same risk as
1141. flcurred by the company. All they wanted was
111,1 y limited to the amount of capital subscribed by
Tch individual, and as
c tribunal to settle their
uprePaudtes. At present a dishonest contributor could
of partnership in bar to a downright robbery
fl any such society or company, and there was
eremedy
as against him. What he (Mr. Slaney)
74, d for, therefore, was—first, a committee or a
zamlvs.i.. to inquire into and suggest amendments in
With alVrtaa'
secondly, a law of limited liability, combined
of ttFto of the present cost of obtaining charters
incorporation in the
thirdly, permission
any sum they toreightdl'arties possessing capital to lend
months, upon the by choose for not less than twelve
fits of the undertaking ta.jctin°ll of a portion of the pro-
claim being proportionable to i4y_fthich it was lent, their
of
lair' others. There was a
nave
desire on the part
masses of people to
4isete permission to use their belie
as fatted its employ-
in their own
nirli without the restrictions that merey
much
given
.a7ILS-at present. In proportion
BeZe humbler classes to this effeet, ea
oft would this country be rendered. America
more
gaslights in street riots, as rad
of i "ntney) had been informed there was neorirehe
of the eittinction of the
mostln
as shares, which were
the People People were shareholders in the gaswerks.
hold post of Bilston it was the same—working men
e a;°,,q 0. large proportion of the g
prest:en as low as 54 by Act of Parliament for the per.
hoa— cf encouraging them to become shareholders. He
uperd,,therefore-, the House would agree to his motion.
the LABOUCHERE• was not disposed to undervalue
e oujeot of the proposition, or to refuse. the Hon .
eastnaber a great tribute of respect. He quite agerereed
.
moveday obstacle that could be removed ehould b
.0
from the way of the investments of the savings
or the w
sh,sn working-classes but he also thought that they
piLluiti rather be advised to lay these savings by than to
p"vvesthem where they might be tempted by large
ba 1.11 • Though he agreed with the principle laid down
1414,1:_llon. Friend very much, he doubted the sound-
', ,° t his Hon. Friend's
•erasyed , •conclusions on this point. lie
bank tne contrary, that a just system of savings'
,essB, which would be proposed in the course of the
Aor 11, would be the best source of investment for the
"gs of the working-classes. At the seine time he
eas oe
hi,
es, opinion that there should be no restriction to the
tment of such savings, and that they ought to be
:_ueet: therefore, to apply it for their advantage in what-
_
a: form they pleased. lle could riot agree with the
60Position
of his Hon. Friend for a Commission or
(a
anittee to investigate and suggest alterations. It was
4_ hole of the Government to consider the
tideuln,_ question. But he had an opinion, con-
"pg the great changes that had taken place
to the commercial relations of the we lid,
at the h
to be w 010 question of partnership ought
eyeutuall o adopt the
well and carefully investigated. Whether it would
Prudent
principle of limited liability
_a?, he owned that his opinion was averse to any
treat
psa„'cret, nge in what had hitherto been the law and
thegl_
were
this country. His Hen. Friend had stated
the eownalrie three great obstacles to the investments of
.Parttiteersh"r claws.
'roe first was the present law of
What had recently • co•apera JP- With respect to working associations and
societies he had not been unobservant oh
quell)
for taken place. He knew there was a
Sq. establishir.
I , if there t,,cce societies. He should be
o-'tie work w,re any impediment thrown in the way
Una of thereingeclasses with re,pect to the great exten-
wsociationsi but, at the same time, he

wished to see them under proper regulation and restric-
tion. lie had looked into the law on the subject, and he
I found the Joint-Stock Companies Act imeoseti the great-
! est onstacles to the duo working and proper extension
of these societies. If the Act only had relstion to this
point, he should have himself proposed an alteration in
its provisions. But he found, if he did so, it would be
necessary to go a step further, and to give positive en-
couragement by such legislation as would alter the prin-
ciples of the law ot partnership, and enable such associa-
tions to sue and be sued. He gave no opinion on that
point, but he must say it appeared to him a grave step
-for Parliament to take—that of giving sanction to prin-
ciples of that description. lie was most anxious-to hare
the question fairly considered by a Commission, and
when the labours of that Commission were ended, for the
improvements or alterations they might recommend to be
adopted; or, if no alteration was expedient, then to con-
sider the question settled. The next complaint was as
to the expense of charters. The complaint, he was happy
to say, was in course of diminution, and he should be
glad to assist in further reducing an expense which he
admitted was too great. With regard to the other modes
tit disposing of savings, he believed he need not go into
that geeetion. There was one mode of investment of
savings—the acquisition of laud—which ho was glsd to
see was gaining ground among the working-classes. He
rejoiced to see this feeling, and he weuld readily give
any other facilities that might be needed to promote and
fseilitate it. He admitted the Joint-Stuck Companies Act
required alteration. It had done some good; but it must
be admitted it was cumbrous in its machinery, and did
not in sumo cases effect its purpose. He believed that
great improvements might be made in the law of part-
nership, but he thought a Commission from the Crown
would be better than a Committee; and he hoped, there-
fore, his Hon. Friend would be satisfied with the assur-
ance which had been ;iron on the subject, and not press
his motion.
Mr. MOFFATT would remark that the!evidence before
the Committee was in favour of a limitation of liability,
as it existed in most continental countries.
Mr. HE ADLA NI agreed with the Right Hon. Gentle.
man in his expressions of sympathy fur the labours of
the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, and he hoped he
might congratulate the country that something practical
would be die result. After the statement from the
Right Hon. Gentleman that a Commission should be
appointed to investigate the question ht, would not go
into it, but ho must say the law as it stood was most de-
fective, and required amendment. At present the
Court of Chancery was the only court to welch share-
holders could resort to bring their directors to account;
and even if they did succeed in that court, the expenses
were so heavy as to make a resort to that court an act
of improvidence. He was glad to hear the whole subject
was to be investigated, ss he could not but anticipate
great benefit from the inquiry.
Mr. J. A. SMITH did not believe that anything
would be more dangerous to the best interests of the
working-classes than an attempt to direct their invest-
ments to objects which, though pecuniarily productive,
must be at the same time attended with considerable
risk and probable harm. The want of a tribunal to re-
fer to in disputes inter se was the grievance put into the
first place by all the witnesses examined before the
Committee last year; and this being so, he begged to
direct the attention of the Government to it with the
view of suggesting a remedy.
Mr. COBDEN would not refer to the establishment
of a legal tribunal to settle disputes among partners.
There was no doubt a want of such tribunals, but that
question he would leave to legal men. The other ques-
tion--that of limited liability—was a question for com-
mercial men. As far as regarded liability of partners,
he had not been able to discover any valid reason why
we should be different to all the rest of the world, and
have unlimited liability instead of limitsd liability. Why
should railway companies have privileges which were
denied to smaller joint-stock undertnkings? He con-
sidered working men laboured under great delusion in
supposing they could have larger profits if they
combined the characters of labourers and ca-
pitalists. It would be found that labouring men
got more profit in a concern managed by one
capitalist, than they would get if they were partners in
the concern. But at the same time he was for giving
working men all reasonable facilities for carrying on
their business in the form of co-operative associations.
With respect to the question of limited partnership, ho
thought great good would arias from allowing persons
to put a sum of money into a working concern, and
making them only liable to the extent of that amount;
whereas, under the present law, if a person did advance
money in the character of a partner he became liable to
discharge the debts of the concern, as Lord Eldon said,
to his last shilling and his last acre. Many clever men
would be induced to embark money in business if lia-
bility was limited. It had been said that the public
would be deceived by limited liability on the part of
some wealthy partner; but this argument would not
stand the test of investigation. In America, he be-
lieved, it was the practice for houses to publish
their partners and the amount each advanced. The
creditors thus knew what they were about, and how far
they were justified in giving credit. He could not
see any objection to such a system in this country.
He believed if the system was adopted it would
be the means of diffusing capital. Tee great want
at present was sntlieient means of diffasing capital. As
the law at present existed it stood in the way of trans-
actions between man and man—between the marriage of
skill and capital. Leave parties tomato their own bar-
gains, they would manage better than any law could do
for them. If you had limited partnership and full pub-
licity of the terms, the public would have no reason to
complain if they lost their money by undue confidence
and credit. What was wanted in this country were means
of spreading capital, and of bringing it into profitable ope-
ration. All who had given evidence against the principle
of limited liability had given an opinion, bat no reason,
for their evidence. He feared these parties gave a pre-
judiced or an arbitrnry opinion. He considered capitalists
took a wrong view of their interest in this qutstion. By
the present law capital became dammed up, and when it
did overflew the restrictions, it did so only to inflict de-
vastsdon and ruin on other interests. He considered the
proposal to refer the question to a Commission was the
best possible suggestion, end he htptd, therefore, his
Hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury would not press
his motion, which only carried the question into a more
vague field.
Mr. SOTHERON said the real point was to obtain
from the House some means of adjusting disputes when
they arose, not as to the mode in which savings should
be invested.
Mr. E WART thought the question for consideration
was, whether a limited or an unlimited liability was best?
He bad no doubt that the Commission proposed by the
President of the Board of Trade would have a practical
efftict, arid he trussed that it would conduce to the pros
perky of the country.
Mr. T. BARING would not have trespassed on the
attention of the House, but for the observations of. the
Hon. Member for the West Riding. The Hoe. Member
thought that the House ought to decide in favour of
limited liability for commercial partnership, smelled
prejudged the question which the proposed Commission
would have to decide, by asserting that the great mass of
the merchants of the country were in favour of the view
he himself had expressed. The question was a very
difficult one, and a great deal might be said on both
sides. The Hon. Member had reterred to the evidence
taken before the Committee, and had asserted that he
bad found all the opinions given by those whom he had
called the great men on the other side of Temple-bar
unsupported by a single argument. But when the Hon.
Member talked of the arbitrary dictation of employing
capital he should have recollected that tie was touching
upon rather a tender point, and ought not to
have forgotten that he himselt had belonged to a so-
ciety which had prescribed the use of capital for par-
ticular purposes.—(Hear.) The lion. Member said he
could not imagine an argument against limited liability.
Limited liability might be advisable in one country and
not at all suited to another. It might do in France,
where the spirit of enterprise and capital were limited,
and where people would not embark in any speculation
without knowing the extent of their liability. But in
this country there was surely no want of either capital
or of enterprise. Competition in this country had so re-
duced the profits of commerce and manufactures that he
doubted whether a greater proof than that could be af-
forded of the distribution of capital in this country.—
(Hear.) The lion. Member said that he sought to
marry capital to enterprise—that he sought to unite the
rich capitalist to a speculative better half. He feared
the fruits of so illegitimate a union would not be so fa-
vourable to trade as the Hon. Gentleman supposed. The
Hon. Member seemed to suppose that be alone was right,
and that nobody else could have reason on their side.
His belief was that the question was a very open one,
and might well be considered. This result might follow
if trade were carried on with a limited responsibility—
great companies, like the commercial societies in Hol-
land.; might spring up and crush smaller traders.
Mr. TRELA.W.NY said that the custom of limited
with others
responsibility existed to some extent in Cornwall in re-
latiou to certain holders of mining Shares. The suh-
ieet was
trust personsTdy
an important one, and was closely connected
Lie d'et
anxious that thee labouringdid
subjects, such as the law relating to banking.
not see any great harm in removing the restric-
tions compia*
they could defeatot, for people were not obliged to
Mr. SLANEY thauitkheddr
classes should not suppose
not approve. He was particulally
of co-operation. capitalists by adopting the principle
the House for their attention,
presentedßlAGES.
and said he should w
Motion accordingly withdrawn,
DULY motion.
DUTY ON
.011-_. a petition name-
CA11:.
Mr. AGLIONBY having
to reduce the
rously signed from Newcastle T 3 ne, complaining cf
the present tax on carriages,
Sir PE LACY EVANS rose, pursuant to notices,
move for leave to bring in a Billto
on carriages. He proposed to reduce the duty tou3t3;
on four-wheeled carriages with two horsed; to 2/. on
four-wheeled carriages with one horse ; and to
on toss wheeled carriage:. The Right Honourable
awareGetle Gentleman n
ththee
c,:}uli;itt
Chancellor
f
i
ts w hich existed on the sub-
jest of the motiou. o take only one point as an
n of
instance of the unsatisfactory nature of the tax, he might
carriers let tor hire
refer to the duty on four-wheeled
number of care
throughout the whole kingdom. T he ,
507—tnis year
Hanes let fur hire was last year only -
461; and the amount of the tax on them W2S lest year,
3,041/.—thie year, 2.7601 Deducting from that amount
ot 2,7601 the expeuce of collection and ether iteuts, he
questiened whither the ret produce of the t :x 011 ear-
nageti lent for hire last year exceeded 1,5001.
must be some cause for the falling-off in the amount
of the tax from year to year. The tax on carriages lent
for hire was 6/. a year. It had been ascertained that the
average period for which carriages were lent did not ex-
ceed three months in the year, so that, in fact, the
coachrnaker paid a tax et the rate of 244 tt year on °veil
carriege lent fig hire. Atter all, ie wes not the cot:eh-
makers who paid the tax, it was the public. The tax
on carriages lent for hire was the only annual tax on the

use of an article mantiCeetured in this country, with the
exe ption of that; ou hair powder. He regarded the
falling-off in tee amount of the tax at a strong 'saga-_
meta for its ttucoon. For the last 13 years he 'be-
lieved it had fallen off at the rate of about 10,000/. each
year. Such a falling-off had taken place, though the
country, with the exception of the agricultural interest,
had been in a state of prosperity, and though the
population had increased. At present the tax varied
from 91. ls. to 11. ss. There were a variety of exemp-
tions, and there were four Acts of Parliament, with
about 50 clauses, relating to the tax. In consequence
of the variety of exemptions there were many frauds
and evasions Even if the tax Was an increasing e one
the frauds it gave rise to would be a good growl's'. for
modifying it. The exemptions were intended for per-
sons of small means, but he had been at the pains to cull
from the columns of a morning paper advertisements of
phaetons for tole, of the most brilliant description, with
wheels not exceeding 30 inches in diameter, which
showed that the fashionable people at the West-end were
the persons who profited by the exemptions. Then there
was the dog-cart exemption, which he believed had been
taken advantage of by some noblemen of the highest
rank, and even by a member of the epi.copal bench. The
exemption was granted on producing a receipt that the
carriage only cost 21/. ; and this receipt was often oft-
, tented. though the price of the carriage was 40/. There
were thousands of such cases. The only item connected
with the tax which aas on the increase was the exemp-
tiens. They were now douhle what they were fornielly.
lle hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would on
these grounds take the emitter into consideration, and
allow him to introdece the Bill. He believed the re-
duced rates proposed would yield as much revenue to the
Exchequer as that now received.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS seconded the motion.
The question hiving been put,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
afraid he could not consent to the motion, although he
admitted that the state of the tax was not satisfactory,
and that the representations of the deputations which
had come to him on the subject had been made with
perfect fairness. He did not, however, think he would
be justified in expecting an increase of the revenue
from the reduction of the tax. He had never known
a reduction proposed without being told that he knew
nothing about it, and that an increase would certainly
take place. Last year he was told that his estimate of
a loss of 500,0001. on the reduction of the stamp-duties
was grossly exaggerated, and yet it amounted iu the
first year of the reduced duty to 497,000/. He agreed
with the Honourable and Gallant Officer that it was
desirable to altsr in some respect the mode in which
the tax in question was imposed, but that could not
be done without loss to the revenue, or without bring-
ing in a large class of carriages on which duty was
not at present paid. If the rates proposed by the
Honourable Gentlemen were adopted, the loss could
not be estimated at less than 200,000/. If all the
carriages set up by parties, and which were hitherto
free from duty, were now, for the first time, to be
brought under taxation, he thought such a proposition
on the part of his Hon. and Gallant Friend would meet
with much more general opposition than support. The
financial prospects of the next year were such, there
were so many heavy expenses to meet, that he very
much doubled whether he should be ab'e to find any
such sum of money as was likely to be sacrificed by that
project. Under existing circumstances he did not think
it would be by any means expedient to introduce a Bill
which would endanger revenue to the amount of 200,000/.
a year. They ought to see clearly what their probable
expenditure for the coming year would be before they
should vote away such a sum of money as that involved
in the preterit proposition.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. PECHELL felt much di-appointment at what
had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and the more especially as during
last session the Right Houourable Gentleman had
held out hopes that this tax amongst some others
would be repealed. They had been told all along with
respect to the window-tax that it could not be given up,
but the opponents of that duty had stuck to it until
they smashed the window-tax outright, and they
would persevere in the same manner with respect to the
present. What rendered it particularly odious was the
many inducements which it held out to parties to cheat
the revenue, and, indeed, those who were the most suc-
cessful in eluding the law and evading the tax were those
is the better ranks of life, who could best afford to pay
the duty.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY also regretted to hear the Right
Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer oppose
the introduction of that Bill, one sound argument against
which had not been adduced. The Right Hon. Baronet
had said that the revenue would lose 200,000/. per an-
num by the measure, but he had not proved that state-
ment. It might be said the Right Hon. Gentleman had
nothing to do with the moral effect of the system now in
operation; but he maintained that that House had much
to do with the moral influence exercised over society by
its laws.

Sir DE LACY EVANS, in briefly explaining, said
he wished to have the farmers' and town tradesmen's
carts exempted, as at present.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the coachmakers had showed
him a calculation which showed that so far from a loss
accruing to the revenue from the proposition made, there
would be a considerable increase from the adoption of
that scheme. He hoped the Bill would be allowed to
be brought in.
Sir G. STRICKLAND ,;vas glad to hear that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that the coach-
mukers end the public had a fair claim to the remission
of that tax whenever the condition of the public revenue
would permit. If they were to legislate in that House on
the principle of getting rid of any taxes which affected
the moraltty of the people, they would very soon repeal
the odious income-tax—(Hear)—than which no more
evil producing meesure had ever passed.—(llear.) The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted that the pro-
posed tax was one which ought to be taken into con-
sideratioe ; and therefore, havine full hope in the sense
of justice and wisdom of the Hight Hon. Gentleman, he
would ask his Hon. and Gallant Friend not to press his
motion, as the hest mode of protecting the object he
had in view.
Sir J. WALMSLEY thought the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would be giving more general satisfaction if
he took taxes off people who. walked, instead of those
who rode.—(Laughter.)
After a few words from Mr. ELLIS,
Mr. G. THOMPSON said he would support the mo-
tion of the Hon. and Gallant Member when it was taken
up in connexion with another subject nearly allied to it
—namely, the duty on carriages plying for hire, and post
horses—a motion relative to which was to be shortly be-
fore the House.—(Hear.) Until then he hoped the
question would not be pressed.
The question was then put,
Sir DE L &CY EVANS said as it was the only way
had of taking the sense of the House on his proposi-
tion, he would divide.—(Hear.)
The House then divided, when there sneered—
For the motion 24
Against it e, 59
Majority against the motion —35
STAMPS ON RECEIPTS.
Me. IIEADLAM moved a resolution to the effect
that " in the opinion of the Howe the present stamps
upon receipts should be abolished." The Hon. Gentle-
man said there were the most conclusive reasons for be-
lieving that that tax was one of which the payment was
constantly evaded. In the year 1823 the amount pro-
duced by the tax was 185,0001.; while in the year 1849
the amount so produced was only 185,0071.; and in the
year 1850 it was only 153,768/.; so that the tax nth.
peered to have, gradually diminished since the year 1823,
in spite of the great increase in the population and in the
commerce of the country since that period. That dimi-
nution, therefore, was solely to be attributed to the fact
that evasions were more and more practised in the pay-
ment of the tax. It also appeared that the present law
upon the subject was made an instrument of extor-
tion, and that persons who had neglected to comply
with its provisions became the victims of unprincipled
intriguers. Now he could conceive nothing more
calculated than such a system to bring the tax-
gatherer into general disrepute, and to make taxa-
tion unpopular throughout the country. In the year
1848-49, for the recovery of a sum of 19,8481. under that
head there had been instituted 119 prosecutions, and
that fact offered a striking proof of the vexatious opera-
tion of the system. The practice of evading the pay-
ment of that tax had become universal, and, in fact, the
employment of a stamp on a receipt was regarded as a
want of confidence in the individual to whom it was ten-
dered. He believed it would be easy to devise some sa-
tisfactory mode of replacing that tax if it were abolished.
According to the opinion of Baron Parke it was doubt-
ful whether a crests cheque was a valid security; and as
cross cheques were a great convenience to parties en-
gaged in mercantile pursuits, he thought the Chancellor
of the Exchequer might very advantageously give vali-
dity to those cheques by imposing on them a stamp of
one penny. Then, again, there was a law which ren-
dered :my person within twenty miles of London drawing
a cheque on a London banker liable to a penalty of
501.; and what would be more natural than that such a
cheque should be made
ent state of the law upon legal, by the
_imposition of a
penny or twopenny stamp. ,There3could_ be no
diili-
culty in devising convenient r substitutes for the present
most objectionable and inefficient
that subject; and he, therefore, hoped that the House
would have no hesitation in agreeing to his motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was afraid that if he were to assent to the repeal of that
tax upon the ground stated by his lion. Friend he should
requirements of the
assigned
public service. No reason had been by his
have very few taxes left to meet the
Hon. Friend for the remission of the stamps on receipts,
except that gentlemen did not like to pay them. But if
was
every tax which was liable to the same objection
repealed, any Chancellor of the Exchequer would find u
it impossible to meet the bills drawn upon him. e
confessed he could not see how the payment of the stamp
by the person employing it, could reasonably be consi-
dered as a reflection on the person to whom the receipt
was presented. He should further say that, on looking
through the list of our taxes, ho could not think that
was
they were
one of those which ought first to be remitted. If
P't)a'
ttho:dgoeputertahleepmepini c,)i.pieleenotf
or:p inedaliirneegtetvaexraytiteaex
of which the ,
unit of indirect
nexaetuit,onvvoane
lyev.adGede,netlrieenllythsepyeaskhoieug, ldbe
driven t o
be
must say that he ilea received no complaints about this
tax. He confessed he thought that 120,0001. or 150,000/.
might be much batter spentfa
upon whgategser-oudnds they would
peopleasta
stump,
ehree
couldi n the
nhoatbsi
et
other tax than this one. Member said,
be induced by an alteration in clues now without
notw
h
adt
erhiavde
been ststed by the Hon. Gentleman he dial
more than they had done heretofore. From
to stamp
suggested.
much encouragement ineoaf
He hoped that the House would concur with hims ne-
otiving the resolution. :itnghtthetlehe,erecaouercstieon of some
Mr. AGLIONBY would support the proposition of
the llor. Member for Newcastle, for an alteration in the
present mode of taxation. The Chancellor of the Ex-

ciacqtpr had com-litted crreat fallacy in saying that
the intention of his Hon. Friend was tae procure a re.
mission of taxatipn.. His Unn. Friend asked not for a
lrerniSsion of taxotior, but for suclian alferation'in the
existing duties as in his opinion would bu a great con-
venienca to the public, while at the same time it would
be likely to increase the revenue consi&rably. He
would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman himself how often
he had evaded this tax? Ho would venture to say that
a stamped receipt WAS not given once in a hundred timer.
If, however, they cs:ablishcd a uniform ld. stamp, like
the Queen's head upon letter!, no on would object to
pay it, and the revenue would be considerably increased.
Mr. BROTHERTON said it was quite evident, in.the:.
present mode of giving receipts, that the revenue was
decreasing, although the population was increasing—
(Hear.) He thought that a uniform penny stamp would
be far more productive than the present stamp duties.
There was a growing feeling in the country in favour of
such an arrangement.

Colonel THWIPSON said that as far as he was con-
cerned he was always in tho habit of requiring stamped
receipts, and or giving the same when they were de-
manded.

Mr. lIINDLEY concurred in the suggestion of the
Hon. Member for Salford.
The House
,then divided, when there apPearea—
For the, motion
••• ••• 28
Against it •• ••• • 61
Majority against thl motion ••• —33
Mr. MOFFATT' moved for a terics of returns relating
to sugar, emigrants, the West Indies, the property and
income-,.ax, and British spirits, all of which were
agreed to.

S
TO
With
AUSTRALIA.
Welton
tAo
Mr. F. FRENCH, pursuant to his notice for copies
of contracts MIL
enteredkl into
con-
veyance of these mails, said that since he had placed
ir s notice on the paper, he aseertaiaed that the con-
tract entered into with this for the
gentleman was only
a provisional one, as it depended upon Mr. Wat
ton being in a condition to perform his en-
gagements. The Government had proposed that
there should be only communications every second
month with Australia by the Cape. He thought that at
this time they ougat to have more frequent communica-
tions. He complained of the Government having en-
tered into a provisiowl contract with a g"ntleman of no
experience. If he were rightly informed the contract
was to commence from the 3d of April next. Now, al-
though Mr. Walton was in treaty for two vessels, he
was not as yet in possession of either of them. This
gentleman depended upon this contract for the getting
up of a company that would enable him to perform his
undertaking with the Government. If Mr. Walton be
even enabled to carry on his voyage as far as the Cape,
it was very improbable he would be able to extend it as
far as Australia.
Mr. COWPER said, that with regard to the condi-
tional contract of Which the Hon. Genticrimn had
spakaN,
the simple fact was that the tender of Mr. Walton having
been accepted some time ago, it became necessary that
articles of agreement, should be framed; but the docu-
ment had not yet been signed, and could not be said,
therefore, to have a legal existence. As soon, however,
as it was signed, the Admiralty would be happy to pro-
duce it. He was surprised that the Hon. Gentleman
should have brought these charges against a company
of which he could know nothing.
Mr. FRENCH—There was no company.
Mr. COWPER had been informed that there was
company, and that they had applied to the Board of
Trade for a charter of incorporation, and been provision-
ally registered. He had also been informed that they
had actually bought two of the best screw-vessels in the
country, on account of their great speed and capability
oF satisfactorily performing the work. He could assure
the Hon. Gentleman that the Admiralty had only taken
the simple course of calling for tenders, of accepting the
lowest, and of giving this person who sent in the lowest
tender every facility they required for the execution of
their contract and the performance of the duty which
they agreed to undertake.
The motion for copies of the contract entered into with
Mr. Walton for the carriage of the mails to Australia,
and of the tender made by the Screw Company for the
carriage of, the mails to the West Indies and the Brazils,
was then agreed to.
IRISH REFORM BILL.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE brought up the Parliamen-
tary Representation (Ireland) Bill, which was read a first
time, and ordered to be printed and read a second time
on Friday, the 27th of February instant.
SCOTCH REFORM BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE brought up the Parlia-
mentary Representation (Scotland) Bill, which was read
a first time, and ordered to be printed and read a second
time on Friday, the 27th.
The LORD ADVOCATE also brought up the Law
of Evidence (Scotland) Bill, which was read a first time,
and ordered to be printed and read a second time on the
7th of March.
The House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.