The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-24 00:00:00

EVENING,

MARCH 24, 1852

deration; but, my Lords, this is no hasty conclusion of through the transactions to which the Noble Lord had
mine. I have no doubt some of my Noble I alluded, and which had extended over so many years.
3,nd Learned Friends will think that I have not It was not very likely that any Government in which
provided is the most satisfactory manner for the solu- her Majesty placed confidence would have neglected to
tion of this question; but what I propose to provide for see the vast importance of these transactions, both as
is this, that where witnesses, without fraud, and as part respected the subject itself, and as respected the oppor-
of the same transaction, without quitting the house or tunity which had been offered to her Majesty's Govern-
place where the will is signed, do sign a will after see- ment to interfere, with a view to the interests of British
ing the testator sign it, all due solemnities being observed, commerce ; but it had been a subject which had occu-
that shall be held to be a valid will. Now, my Lords, pied the attention of the Government for many years.
no doubt it may be said that this would open a door to Even so long ego as 1806, when Sir Home Popham had
some fraud, or to a substitution of one will for another. made an attack upon Buenos Ayres, it was shown before
My Lords, these are not the dangers after all which we a court-martial how invaluable it would be as regard, d
have to avoid. It may be said that because the dangers the communications with those rivers which fell into
have not occurred these laws have prevented them. But the Plate, and certainly it would be most desirable, to
the law has not stuck at fraud; the law has destroyed a have an unbroken communication between all the coun-
man's will, which was open to no substantial objection. tries through which they ran and the Atlantic, end thus
The law has not prevented the frauds which, whenever with this country.—(Hear.) The independent Republic
the parties had been determined to carry them into exe- of Paraguay, which we had not yet acknowledged, but
cation, they have been able to do so in spite of it. Ido which he thought we ought to do as soon as possible—
not say that they have all been successful—men have at- (Hear, hear)—and which appeared to be uphold at this
tempted it skilfully, and it may be successfully in some moment by a man who was the most advanced of his
cases, and they have taken care to adhere to all those race, had agreed to accept commercial relations with
rules which would destroy men's wills, in attempting to this country.—(Hear.) It appeared that when Sir
impose the solemnities required. Now, my Lords, I Charles Ilotham wont up to the Parana, ho had coin-
, must state in conclusion that if any of my Noble and munications with the chief of that country. It was sa-
Learned Friends object to either of these two latter tisfactory to find that the two great states at the head
clauses I will not retain them. But if I should have of these rivers were in favour of commercial intercourse
the concurrence of my Noble and Learned Friends to with England; and when they further considered the
the first clause, which I heartily expect, I shall be immense advantages that England and the other Euro-
very well content to have the Bill passed in that poan countries would derive, he thought that there could
shape; if not I shall listen with respectful attention to be no doubt that all the nations in Europe would take
what they have to suggest. But, my Lords, I cannot the same view as that which the Noble Lord and her
promise that I shall not, upon a future occasion, bring Majesty's Government entertained. (Cheers.) But
into your Lordships' House a measure founded upon the now, in answer to the questions which the Noble Lord
two last propositions, which may then bo more fully con- had put with respect to the, political state of these
sidered. And, as lam addressing your Lordships upon countries at the present moment—officially the Govern-
the subject, and speaking of future measures, I would meat had no account of anything beyond the total
draw your Lordships' attention to a measure as to wills, defeat of Roses, and his flight on board of one of our
which may require the attention of this and the other ships. They had no accounts, either official or other-
House of Parliament. The statute of the first of Queen who, as to the flags which the Noble Lord had said
Victoria for the first time imposed the same solemnities were fly ing in the Banda Oriental; or that any portion
uptin the disposition of personal estate as in the time of of that territory had been ceded. They;had no official
Charles IL (with variations) were imposed upon the or private information as to what the Noble Lord said had
disposition of real estate, and it was said, how very ab- been given up, but ho had reason to believe that it still
surd it is that you cannot dispose of half an acre of remained what it was by the last arrangement.—(Hear,
land without three witnesses, and yet you may dispose hear.) With respect, now, to the conduct of her Ma-
of 100,0001. of personal estate which is oven fluctuating jesty's Government under these circumstances. It had
without any witnesses at all. Yet, people do not desire been simply this. Within 24 hours after receiving the
every day to alter their testamentary dispositions; but news of Rosas's defeat, ho (the Noble Earl) had put
they make variations in the disposition of their personal himself in communication with the Government of the
estate by codicil or by legacy to be payable out of their French Republic, and invited that Government to join
personal estate, however large it may be; but now no us in arranging such negotiations with these states as
man can make the slightest alteration in his will—he would contribute to the peace of the country and the
cannot give 51., nor alter a certain legacy, without call- commercial interests both of this country and the other
ing in two witnesses. It was said of a great man, that nations of Europe.—(Cheers.) Further than that he
the faults which we denounced in him died with him; could not at present answer the questions of the Noble
but I might .say with greater truth, that owing to the Lord, and he thought their Lordships would not expect
difficulties which the law throws around them, many him to enter into the details of such plans as the Govern-
cddicils die even in thinking. These are points, how- ment had in contemplation upon a subject which they
ever, which we must consider hereafter. The Noble considered to be of as much importance as anything that
and Learned Lord then concluded by moving the second now occupied the civilised world.—(Cheers.)
reading of the Bill. The Earl of ABERDEEN remarked that, as he had
Lord BROUGIIAM agreed with his Noble and frequently had occasion to refer to this subject, he
Learned Friend that at all events the first provision of could not help taking this opportunity of expressing
the Bill should be passed. With reference to the pre- the great satisfaction he telt at the termination
sent state of the law some test must be taken. It had which had taken place of the war. The main
been decided that if the witnesses were in a position to object of the interference of this country had
be seen by the testator that was sufficient; and it was only now for the first time been fully obtained,
difficult to see how the law could be otherwise construed. namely, the entire independence of the Banda Oriental.
He recollected that a question arose on the Duke of (Hear, hear.) That was not the case with the last treaty
Roxburgh's will, as to whether the witnesses signed on bytween this country and Roans, be cause, although the
a particular table in the adjoining room, where they independence of the Banda was recognised in terms, the
could be seen by the testator, or not, which was decided army of Roses was left in the Oriental States in a con-
by a court of law. He did not object to give the whole dition to pursue hostilities against them; and if it had
Bill a second reading; but if there were doubts as to the not been for the intervention of Brazil and the rebellion
second and third clauses, it would be well to withdraw of Corientes (as the Noble Lord had called it) against
them for the present. . Roses, it was very probable that he would have sue-
Lord ORAN WORTH ilia not object to the first clause; ceedod in obtaining possession. He (the Noble Earl)
but he thought the other clauses required further consi- was most happy to hear from his Noble Friend that the
deration. Government had proposed to renew with the French
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought that all the Government those negotiations which were put a stop
statutory provisions having reference to wills should be to by the separate treaties concluded with this country
embodied in one Act of Parliament. proceeding which at the time he (Lard Aberdeen)
The Bill was then read a second time. had taken the liberty of saying was not justified, and
THE ARGENTINE REPUBLIC. which the French people might to a certain degree re-
Lord BEAUMONT rose to put a question to the tent, and to which they had testified their great dis-
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs relating to the content. He thought that nothing could exceed the
present state of the Argentine Confederation. It was t perfect cordiality and good faith with which the French
not his intention to criticise the policy of former Go- Government had acted throughout the whole affair,
vernments with regard to this Confederation, but simply and he therefore hoped that in renewing this con-
to obtain information as to the present state of our rela- nexion and concert with them we should proceed in the
tions with that quarter of the world, and to press same manner that we had hitherto done.—(Cheers.)
upon the present Government the absolute necessity No doubt it was impossible to exaggerate the import-
of commencing negotiations in that part of the ance in a commercial point of view of free access to the
world, and not to lose the present golden opportunity of internal rivers of South America: but, although it was
extending our commercial intercourse, and to attempt to exceedingly easy to declare the navigation of a river
establish there a permanent peace. The Noble Lord free, much remained to be done after such declaration.
then proceeded to contrast the progress of the two great He recollected when the navigation of the Rhino was
races, Anglo-Saxon and Spanish, in the great continent declared free, but it took twenty years to regulate the
of America, and attributed the inferiority of the latter conditions upon which that free navigation should take
to the propensity of the Spanish Government to place.—(Hear, hear.) He was exceedingly glad to find
exclude as much as possible all European intercourse. the various states in favour of tree communication with
The independence of the Bands Oriental had been Europe; but the Eastern Republics had never been de-
established by a treaty between Brazil and Buenos ficient. They had always the utmost liberality, and he
Ayres, in 1828, which independence it had always been trusted that the Argentine Confederation in their new
the polity of the English Government to maintain. In condition might share in this very salutary feeling.—
the year 1830 war existed between France and Buenos (Hear, hear.) Ho thought it would not be wise to enter
Ayres, and during the period of the war the French used more particularly into the specific acts of the Govern-
to avail themselves of the independent country of Monte ment. No doubt the Noble Earl was very fully impressed
Video, in order to make it the basis of their operations, with the importance of the object in view, and he for
and carry on their hostile movements against Buenos one would give them credit for pursuing it with the
Ayres. General Oribe happened to be the President of greatest assiduity.—(Hear.) He hoped that he (Lord
Monte Video, and he objected to that country being Aberdeen) was not carried away with the vanity of
made use of by France. A revolution arose—he need authorship, but it had that day happened to him to look
not say how—in Monte Video. General Oribe was at the instructions, which he
hue not :ccn for seven
driven from there, and General Rivera was appointed in years since he had first drawn them up in 1845; and
Lee , Com a. 1-Aco might jndge, there was
an invasion of Buenos Ayres took place, in which ho as- nothing in them that he would alter at this moment.
sisted. At that time, as well as since, there raged two After a few words from the Earl of HARROWBY and
violent parties in the Argentine Confederation, going by Lord STANLEY of Alderley,
the names of Unitarians and Federalists; and so hostile Viscount CANNING inquired if the Government had
were they that not a single proclamation of the Govern- any information with respect to the independence of
ment was issued without being headed " Death to the Paraguay.
savage Unitarians." There was no doubt that the Uni- The Earl of MALMESBURY answered in the nega-
tarians from Buenos Ayres went over to Monte Video, tive.
and carried on their hostilities against Buenos Ayres, Lord BEAUMONT had listened with great pleasure
for, after the French had left, General Rivera continued to what had fallen from the Noble Earl, and he wished
the war, and invaded part of the Argentine Con- to know whether the Government had any papers which
federation. General Rotas availed himself of Oribe, had not already been laid on the table of the House.
who was then in Buenos Ayres, placed him at the head The Earl of MALMESBURY said they had none,
of a large body of men, and sent him to meet General except the dispatches related to the defeat of Roses, and
Rivera, who was completely routed. Oribe continued to his escape to the Locust.
press on the Banda Oriental, claiming to be the legiti- Lord BEAUMONT was understood not to press for
mato President; he roused the whole country of Urn- the production of these dispatches, and
guay; he surrounded and besieged the town of Monte Their Lordships adjourned.
Video, and it being thought necessary to interfere, we
sent out Mr. Gore Ouseley, as the successor of Mr. Man-
deville, and the French Government also sent out a ne-
gotiator. They went to Buenos Ayres, but could not
get Roses to adopt any terms of peace, in consequence of
which they went over to Monte Video, which was then
engaged in hostilities against Buenos Ayres, which was
blockaded by an English squadron, and an English force
was landed to defend Monte Video. In spite of all this,
Generals Roses and Oribe maintained their footing, and
pressed Monte Video extremely hard. Mr. Ouseley
proposed terms which Roses did not then think proper
to accede to. After that the British Government sent
out Lord Howden, and with him went out, on behalf
of France, a distinguished person who was now the
ambassador to this country. After a short time Lord
Howden, although that was a joint intervention, thought
it better at once to break the blockade and do away
with our interference, leaving Buenos Ayres and Monte
Video to fight it out as boat they could. They ac-
cordingly did so, the blockade was withdrawn, and
from that moment the joint intervention must
have been considered to have come to an end.
This state of things continued; and after that
another person was sent out, and finally Mr. South-
ern, who was the only negotiator who seemed to
have anything like success. At that period a treaty
was framed between General Roses and this country ;
and that treaty, as was well known now, had merely
for its object the acknowledgment of the independence
of Monte Video and the inducing of Roses to withdraw
his force from that country. In all these treaties, not-
withstanding the instructions originally sent out to ne-
gotiate for the opening of the River Plate, and notwith-
standing on one occasion we forced the opening of the
river Parana, yet notwithstanding these instructions,
never did Roses at any moment consent to open those
rivers. Mr. Hood proposed to open the Parana and
Paraguay, as internal rivers, yet so suspicious was Rosas
that he objected to do so; the negotiation failed, and no
attempt had since been made to open those rivers. When
affairs had come to this point, as far as our interference
was concerned, there was supposed to be an end of the
matter; and up to that moment we had gained no ad-
vantage in a commercial point of view, although we had
compelled Rosas to act up to the treaty of 1828, and act-
knewledge the independence of Monte Video. After
that circumstances arose which totally changed our rela-
tions as to that country, and opened up an opportunity of
establishing new relations. After Rosas had withdrawn
his troops, std the independence of Monte Video had
been acknowledged, the Brazils entered into four or five
treaties with Monte Video, which he trusted would be laid
on the table of the House. Some of those treaties were
treaties of commerce, and others urged the Corrientes to
raise the flag of rebellion. Corrientes was not in a
resof;
dition to be successful. It was supported by l
. (which had never declared war) very much in the man-
ner we supported Monte Video on a formeerdodescfassaitoend.
General Urquiza next went to the Pares a
Rosas, who was abandoned by all hi
hter on board the
was obliged to escape with his elaug r
quiet" was at this
"followers, and
Locust, one of our vessels. Generaldhe
(the Noble Lord)
inß rtaheai -t
moment in the Banda Oriental, an
was informed by. letters ho had
nreocweivbe
Han and Argentine flagsodththflatyitnhge
wereaffairs Brasil, having assisted
country. In this state o
Urquiza, would, of course, demand high pay for the
services she had done his cause; and it was stated that
the Gibraltar of the Parana was to be surrendered to
Brazil; and that a large portion of the Banda Oriental
had been ceded. It was to ascertain, then, who was to
be considered the proper authority—whether the Argen-
tine Confederation was to be consider the proper autho-
ity_in the Banda Oriental, that he had asked the
questions he had risen to put to the Noble Earl. He
would also strongly urge on her Majesty's Government
that, in the present state of affairs, the should lose not
a moment in entering into negotiations with the coun-
tries which were touched by the rivers Parana and Pa-
raguay for free navigation through all those countries;
amongst which he included not only the Argentine Con-
federation, but also Bolivia, Brazil, Paraguay—which
we had not yet, but which we ought to have, considered
independent—(Hear, hear)—and the Banda Oriental.—
(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he begged
to ask the Noble Earl whether he could afford them any
information on the subject; and also whether he could
give them any hope that the great object they had in
view—namely, the legitimate extension of our commerce,
was likely to be carried out more successfully than it bad
before been under General Rosas?—(Cheers
The Earl of MALMESBURY remarked that, after
the detailed account which the Noble Lord had given,
it would be perfectly unnecessary for him again to IV

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 23.
The SPEAKER took
NEW the Chair at Four o'clock.
MEMBER.

Viscount GALWAY took theoathsand his seat on his
re-election for East Retford.
SECOND READINGS.

The Asthall and Buckland Road Bill, the Idle Drain-
age Bill, and the Metropolis Water Supply Bill were
read a second time. The last Bill was reterred to a Se-
lect Committee.
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE MINING DISTRICT

WATER COMPANY BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. BEST opposed the Bill on the greund that it
proposed to abstract a large body of water from the
river at Kidderminster, which, at present, was scarcely
adequate to the requirements of the manufactures in the
town. The manufacture of carpets was extensively car-
ried on at Kidderminster, and it was absolutely neces-
sary that those engaged in that branch of industry should
have a good supply of water by means of a running
stream. He moved that the Bill be read a second time
this day six months.
Mr. THORNELY supported the second reading.
Mr. GEACH also supported the Bill, and bore testi-
mony to the want of water in the districts proposed to
be supplied.
Alderman SIDNEY should vote in favour of the
amendment.
Mr. C. VILLIERS said the question was between
making carpets and preserving human life. There was
no district in England so badly supplied with water, and
that was the reason why it was so frequently visited
with cholera and epidemics. He hoped no further oppo-
sition would be offered to the Bill.
Mr. KNIGHT considered that if the Bill were passed
it would ruin the trade of Kidderminster, because the
manufacturers required a running stream to enable them_
to dye their yarns, and the Bill would deprive them of
the advantage they now enjoyed.
Colonel ANSON supported the Bill.
STihrenfillou'sleNtGheLnldS asivwidedo,pwphoseendttt
hoerehespapece d
second reading.
75
g for elt a
For the second reading ...gg
Against it ... ••• —l4
Majority . • ... ..•
The Bill was consequently lost.
PETITIONS.
Colonel FREESTUN presented a
petitionfromthe.
postmasters of the boreugh of Weymohatayhnidnan M
assessed
the c
omb
e
Regis, complaining of their being taxed at 25 per cent
x
on their gross earnings, whilst
;raailnwdapyrs are onlycharged
5 per cent. on their passenger receipts, and no tax
on
their carriages or goods tr
im-
mediate repeal of the post-horse duties
on carriagesßlr.
D FE y keptN o o tou Rl let
presented
tto hire. a
petition from Lam-
beth against calling out the militia; and from Loutb,
Lincolnshire, for repealing the endowment of Maynooth
College.

Mr—. ELLIS presented a petition from Leicester,
1,1
Lordagainst
c.
es ~'
MANNERS presented several petitions from
places in Leicestershire alainst the Maynooth grant.
Col. VESY petition from Wakefield,
against the duty.post-phorseate a
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from the So-
ciety for the relief of the sons of poor clergymen, pray-
ing to be exempt from the operation of the Charitable
Trusts Bill.
Dun-
Mr. J. B. SMITH presented a petition from
fermline, praying the House to withold its sanction to
any alteration in the free-trade policy.
Mr. P. HOWARD presented a petition from Carlisle,
praying for the repeal of the taxes on knowledge.
Mr. KEOGH presented a petition from a place in
Westmeath in favour of tenant right.
Mr. SCULLY presented tit similar petition from a
place in the county of Kerry.
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from Man-
chester, praying that there might be no alteration in our
commercial policy.
Mr. COWAN presented a petition from Montrose
against the Maynooth grant.
Mr. WALTER presented a petition from Nottingham
in favour of ocean penny postage.
;gr. COBDEN premented a petition from Leed
i:grsfoyr
,t,
th, the repealour N u
iofaltth
A taxesw rg,
(t.ottunn, knowledge.he:3proov.r.e v.,
:i0171,1113
trhat
ehl::
mi.. GLADSTONE presented petitions f
3 against an)
OF MOTION-1:
holdalt er
afiol'i i church ihnu rrchh'N purposes.lolrc'lEat relating
Mr. WIiELAWNEy
gays notice that he should more