The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-12 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY EVENING,

Mr. JAMES DUFF said he should vote for the motion
f leirli the addition of the -words proposed by Mr. Heywood.
Mr. MOORE said it had beeu already called to the attest-
tien or the Melee that the Hen. Member for North War-
wickshire had placed a notice on the paper to repeal the, e,
Maynooth - grant. However; lie now appeared to have
altered that intention, coining, as he dal, down to that
House with a speech savoitrii g of Exeter-hall, and a mo-
tion &savouring still more strongly of Downing-street.--
( Hear.) What was the principle prevailing out of doors=?
The prieciple was, that it-wee not expedient or wise that the
people of this country should be taxed for The maintenance
of a religion' whice they did"rot believe to be true. That
was a broad and clear basis to go upon, and one in which
the people of Ireland would entirely concur. '.l3ut what
need was there of inquiry to establish that? Was there
any person who denied that the religion taught at May-
nooth was trabelieyed in by the people of this country.
It had been stated that the object in founding the College
of Maynooth was to preserve the Irish clergy from the
taint of Uitramontanisin . by educating them in their own
country. If so, that object had wonderfully succeeded, for
it would be impossible to find a body of men more ray of
the Soil, or more thoroughly incorporated with the people
than the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland—(lear, hear.)
Six years ago the Government of this country obtained a
rescript from Rome, the intention of which was to fetter
.the Irish ecclesiastics in their political privileges; and the
press of this country was most TJltramontarie• in its attack's
on the Irish clergy because of their disobedience to the Court
of Rome.—(Laughter, . and cheers from theDaposition,)
Again, it was only the other day-that a Peer of England
was found clandestioely engaged in supplicating theinflu-
ence of the' Holy See as regarded the obstinacy of.. the Irish
priesthood.-(Hear, hear.) If the object of that House was
to denationalise or to unpopularise the Irish clergy, it had
'commenced at the wrong end. The Irish Clergy had fbr -
yearn been the leaders of the people, for this reason—that
the people had no other leaders. The laws of this country
made it penal to teach a Roman Catholic to read or write;
but the clergy, nevertheless,•came in and taught them how
to live and die.—(Hear, hear.)
Thelaws of this country
attempted to make Roman Catholics savages and serfs; but .
the clergy intervened, they . marshalled them into a nation,
and taught them to be a people.—(Bear, hear.) Let the
State change its policy-e-let it come over and lead the people,
and the clergy would most Willingly deliver up the keys of
the citadel.—(Hear, hear.) --- . .
Mr. GLADSTJNE—Sir, I• propose to give 'My vote in
favour of the motion introduced-by the Hon. Gentleman the.
Member for North Warwickshire. . But the subject is -Of
importance, and I differ so widely in the spirit of speech
with which the Hsn. Gentleman has introduced and re- -
commended his motion, that I -cannot suffer it ,to be put
to the vote in silence.—(Elear, hear.) Sir, I' am not here
to contend that Parliament is bound by any compact to the,
maintenance of the Act that secures this endowment. Idq
not now raise the question of what is due to those' indivi-
duals who are indebted to the maintenance of this college for
a livelihood. I speak of the permanent maintenance of the
grant ; and I disclaim all doctrines of compact. (Hear, hear:)
But, Sir, I inust add,- it appears to me that unless you can
show by proofs that the objects and purposes of the endow-
ment have failed, and that the expectations you. entertained
have been frustrated--unless you can show all these, then
prudence and justice • demand the maintenance of the
endowment. (Heat-, hear.) -It appears to the that
if failure cannot be shown—and I must say it would be
a subject of very grave and serious apprehension if this
failure were shown, because I coafess I am surprised at the
manner and tone in which the question has been approached
—that the grant ought not to .lits withdrawnaa--Hear.) It
appears to me that Hon. Gentlemen seem to thitik ia a small -
matter to withdraw this endowment, but they forget that its
importance is not measured by the figures that designate its
endowment. They forget it is of material service as regards
the arrangements existing between England and Ireland.—.
(Hear.) For my own part I do not, say if this endow-
ment can be shown to be mischievous, and the expectatioas
formed have failed, that it ought-to be maintained ; but Ido
venture to say that if Parliament withdraws the endowment,
it must be prepared to enter into the whole Subject, and be
prepared to reconstruct the ecclesiastical arrangements.— -
( Hear.) I am not speaking of-what is right or what is
wrong—l am not speaking of what is to be desired or what
is to be deprecated. For my own .part, I deeply deplore
the series of changes into which such a course would pre-
cipitate us. Bat having these- anticipations of the conse-
quences of such a policy, if we begin in the form Which I fear
the Hon. Member for North Warwickshire would propose, I
thinkit-is but honest that, I sheuld state them to the House.
(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I must say it appears to me that
this endowment—(lcer,. hear.-) We have not 'yet
that not a single
no serious case has been made• out to prove the failure of
com-
pleted the cycle of seven years since this endowment was ert-
re of theology taught
at that seminary has left Maynooth who entered slaturgle(nbt interested tetrheisntkedlinamth-e7rioetli=g
the college
no reasonable man could expect-that this endowment was to
s and habits of a whole gene-
rationsince the enlargement of the endowment.;. and I am sure, Sir,
act by magic on the sentiment
language in which parts of the history of Ireland and circum-
stancesreferred to- in -
and an entire people. It is painful for nto to hear the
in the state of Ireland have been the
course of this night's debate. -Nothing is more easy, God
knows, than to make inflammatory.. and - - exaspera-
ting statements with regard
to the condition of
that unhappy countrye. stud- nothing is mere easy
han to retaliate upon those statements.,
and They may*
draw cheers and counter-cheers, .
may gratify '.
'fy feelings of
peace and happiness of the Country
zealots and partizans, but what does all thistOntribate to the
a--(Hear, hear.) There
was a time, Sir, when the preamble of one of the Acts passed'
in the Irish Parliament relating -to the militia was framed
something after this manner r I do not quote- the exact
words, but give the substance—ts-Whereas the•Popish inha-
bitants of this country have-often broken out in rebellion,
and whereas it is most probable that the said inhabitants
will again and in a future time- rebel; therefore be_ it en-
acted —." Sir, I hoped that-the-spirit
these
words was no longer represented within these walls. But
when I heard the. Honourable-Member for North War-
wickshire
Iwickshire speak of the priests of Maynooth and their re-
lation with sedition and rebellion, which dictated
could not but feel
the danger
,we, ran,. unless we put a guard upon cur-
selves when approaching such inflaming questions, of
being hurried back into a temper .of mind which in our
cooler moments we should deprecate, and of hazarding
disastrous consequences to the country. which in those cooler
moments we should deprecate. Sir, I think the llon. Mem-
ber has mentioned points, and I 'think also there are other
points which might form legitimate sucjects for Parliamen-
tary inquiry in connection with the College of Maynooth.
I frankly own, however, that I should
prefer inquiry to have
taken place at a somewhat Inter - period. It appears to me
that nothing can be more entirely consonant with wisdom
than that you should wait at least until the pupils, in some
two or three years, have successfully gone through their
training, in order to attain some practical experience of
their pastoral efficiency,. and -their general conduct as
1 compared with that of the older priests reared tinder
the former system. This course, I think, it would be wise
to follow, for, at present the evidence on which we could 'a
' proceed is scarcely ripe. At the same time, when a motion
is made, we must. not only-consider 'the expediency
dictated it, . but take a large view. of the public interests, and
the consequences which might follow' from resisting At -7-
(Hear, hear.) I confess, therefore, that I think my. Zion.
Friend, who spoke lately froniathe opposite bench, acted
wisely wheo,he counselled,, considering the strong feeling•
there was in this country in favour of in uir ' that it is
for the interest of Maynooth that obstacleis shYo'uld not be
thrown hi the way. If it' be true, as has
been alleged; that
, the establishment is extravagantly far e—if it be true
(although, I believe, there is no evidegnce fit
that
at, Maynooth there:. are the nieans-not only of educating
, Roman Catholic priests for Irelanet
, *but that there is a SUP'
plus for England and the colonitis—that, I which
say, ought not
I to: be. Whether that be so,or not,
.hovrever, the subject is
one of legitimate inquiry. we.
whether the 26,000/. a year da economically judiciously,
and effectively employed for the purposes - e are entitled to inquire
eurposes whic'h"Parliaraent
intended. Nay, more; 1
- s4Y when allegations such as
those to which the lion. Member for • North Warwickshire
tmheemsbleigraitewstoulddisponsmitdiontitlvaotuldupboe:htohwant
has referred with ,respect to the teaching at Maynooth. as
to civil duties and obligations- of allegience, I do not think
quiry', although I confess my-awn-belief that the 1100.
would end where it began. Sit; the Hoaourable
Member has spoken of the --report of the . Commis-
sioners of Education made ;
-11 1827, but I doubt
whether he has discharged the dilly of
'wading through it. If
t op
point
ttli. hionlqdu
inquiry
he had I think he would 'have found that these Commis-
to oaths;
sioners hadand soul
doubt nded' the ve ileliths of teaching with respect
whertyher, he will attain different con-
clusions than those arrived at-ats
quired into; but I confess-
when I pass from these points Co the general tone.aiid spin
may be in --Y these
of the speech of the Honourable Gentleinan, Lmust say it
appears to ma that his main,eharge against
Maynooth was,
These are points which
that in it are inculcated . the doctrines of the Roman
Catholic faith.—( Hear., hear.).• Sir, it Catiaraissioners.
Was and is a question.
or that
gravest character whether Parliament should enter
into relations with the Roman -Catholic Church on that
subject.. But te uestion does not depend upon an examia
nation of minutedetails.
,It is a question for the highest
legislative wisdom and statesms et
nsetp, and ought met to be
referred to the inquiryatid report of a_ _
"3( Select Committee.
And here I come to the limitations le
weeLell must be imposed
' Now in the first
on this inquiry. , ,
Gentleman who moved the inquiry, and 'Noble Lord who.
• seconded him, both looked upon this inquiry simply as a
means of eatablishing certain eharges. on which they had
made up their minds; and, As a first step in the process, they
propose a fepeal of ties Act and the withdrawal of the grant.
I hope, Sir, the Hon. Gentleman -will not think' I am treat-
ing him with disrespect, when I say that a-Select Committee,
appointed on the motion of a Hon. Gentleman who expresses
. views like these, must not be considered a Select, Committee
to be entrusted to his guidance. I- Presuult to Ba__
, Y that the
subject is too large, and too important, to be referred to a
Committee which should, be ender the guidance of any
individual men fiber.--(Hear, hear) .Itas a great national
question whether we shall or shall not withdraw the'
endowment of Maynooth. • It Ta a qUestion which At all
time ought to be dealt with by the ExecutiVe G'overument
and I would venture to claim 'that the inquiry now Ism.
poised shall likewise be conducted under the immediate •
superintendence and responsibility of the
Executive Govern-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) We are here, Sir, to do irapartial
justice—to consider :alike England, Scotland, and Ireland.
It is consistent with that justice that we amid. institute in-
quiry into the state of the. College of Mnooteay e
, aud the
would not be system of education therea, But it
with justice that the conduct of such an inquiry should be
entrusted to any Member of Parliament, however eminent
and however great his gifts, whose mind is pledged to a
foregone conclusion.. It is not consistent with justice that
inquiry should be concluded tinder such auspices. There is
another limitation which it is essential to point out, and
which is founded in the nature of the subject; I conceive
that the inquiry ought notto be into.: the general character
of the doctrine, or, the worship and exercise of the Roman
Catholic religion as practised in the College of Maynooth,—,
ear,
. a hear.) Such an inquiry, I contend, eught,net to, be
(• •
have used '
' ted to a Select Committee. I .
~,the aven4
entrusted
„d.
~
l• a " and "exercise" of the %Mau
e doctrine," discipline," in ,
the wide and coMprelt _
ensive
Catholic religion, as these are .
~.,.re:we
wiii .
words contained in the `statttte. Nor 'are
tout piece
his case. ' The* noneurable -
.Gentleman proposes
dent in t
the system of education at Maye
- that we should inquire into
nooth, and I fully grant that
you may place a construction
upon these words "system of education," if not ruled and
limited by. the sense of
e
Acts° of Parliament, by the sense of
the country, and by the
precedents bearing on the case. I
grant that under these w _
eds' the 'Honourable Gentleman
such a largenesa o theological
f
' ht be able to introduce
might
satisfy even all appetites io that
investigation as would
Sir this is cost tame
direction.--(Hear, hear.) But,
~
hi 18'27 you lead
not the
ad the teport of
that there has been inqittry.
of Maynooth, and
on the `College
a Royal Commission up
; d in. the report, and . the ea._
what were the yiewa`contlate
Gmunissimeers auted? • I will
cumstances under which the a as large as the Honour-
show that the instructions Wire quite
able Member himself could wish The Crown in appointing
.
•
, the Commtsaion, baying recited the
addasss Roue() of
.t., of the
Commons, and uomihated—the individuals,
directed them to
inquire into the nature and -extent of theinatructioni afforded
by the Several institutions in Ireland established for thed
either in Whole or in
purpose of education and—mailita---;ne
i part from the publih funds. They were to inquire into the
0, ff
these in- by
e '
nature and extent of the iiistrtiOtip .fk -I s