The Sun.
London, England, 1852-04-23 00:00:00

marily with reference to the effect of the policy which
he recommends upon the revenue of tee country.
That is the only consideration which can influsece me
at the present moment-, and it is only with re-
ference to the effect of his resolutions, if carried, upon
the revenue that I shall venture to make any awnca-
tions. The united amount of the two items to which I
have last referred is not contemptible; ttking the three
together the aggregate is important. I think that the
question of, the effect of the duty upon advertisements is
ore which should be gravely considered. Ido not want
at this moment to seer more than that it is a question
which her Majesty's Government have taken into their
consideration. lam not convinced by the ingenious ob.
servations of the Right Hon. Gentleman that practically
speaking, were we to deal with the stamps on news-
papers, we should bring about a good and satisfactory
state of things. But again this subject, I freely admit,
should enter into the consideration of any pelson re-
sponsible, not only for the finances, but also for the good
government the country. I distinguish both these
motions—the second and third—very much from the
first motion on which we are. now called to give a deci-
sion—the duty on paper. The duty on paper is so
large in amount that every one must hesitate before
voting for the surrender of that source of revenue;
and I must warn Honourable Gentlemen not to be
carried away by the lively description given by the
Right Honourable Gentleman as to the- injurious effect
of the excise law upon that. particular article, and,
they are. not to consider: hat it is the sole instance .in
which its -injurious effects . are discovered,—(Hear,
hear.) If we are to relieve the: industry of the country
by the repeal of the excise duty, it becomes a sub-
ject requiring the most impartial and-deepest investiga-
tion before we decide which duty is the one most re-
quiring to be repealed.—(Elear, hear.) The possibility
of obtaining relief in this as well as in other instances
depends entirely upon the state of the public finances;
and when in the course of a week I shall feel it my
duty to place before the House the exact state of the
finances, lam sure the House will agree—however in-
teresting discussion or debate may be—that there would
be great inconvenience in eomiug now to a premature
decision on any subject of this kind.—(Bear, hear.) I
would remind the House of the conduct of the House
of late years with regard to the public finances. Every
one knows that for a considerable period there has been
a determination upon the part of the House of Com-
mons not to add to the revenue of the country by im-
posing new trieee.—(Hear, hear.) If there had been
any opinion more freely expressed, or more energetically
maintained than another, it certainly has been that ex-
pressed by the majority of this House, who oppose,
directly or indirectly, any increase of revenue by in-
creased taxation.—(Hear, hear.) They have made war
upon the Customs duties, which materially assisted our
finances; and now there is a very great objection to
the Excise.—(Hear, hear.) Very well; you are taking
away every source of your indirect taxation, and I
think any gentleman who considers the question should
agree with me that when you were so precipitately
cutting off the sources of your indirect taxation, you
ought to have considered whether more relief to the in-
dustry of the country would not be given if you had
either modified or repealed the Excise duties—the
source of your internal taxation—than to have reduced
the Customs duties, the source of your external taxa-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) Remember this, that Honourable
Gentlemen opposite, and particularly the Right Hon.
Gentleman who has brought forward this motion, never
sanctioned this principle, but, on the contrary. sup-
ported the policy that reduced the Customsae a,ai
_duties.—nt
s
(Hear, hear.) We have now a great war
the Excise; you have attacked successfully m d
one great
source of our indirect taxation, and you are now attack-
ing another source of our indirect taxation.—(Hear,
hear.) But what is our position in regard to direct
taxation?—(Hear, hear.) We have a Committee sitting
upstairs which is actually making war upon the hear.)pal source of your direct taxation.—(Elear,
w
Whatever may be the opinions of the gentlemen h
form that Committee, it is notorious, both from the o
ex-
pressed opinions of the Honourable Gentleman who •
moved and carried the appointment of that Committee,
and of the most important members upon it, that what-
ever may be their views respecting direct taxation, they
disapprove of the principles on which direct taxation at
present is levied iu this country.—(Hear.) They may tell
you that they are favourable to direct taxation, but it
insist be direst taxation• with exemptions, and free from
every objection which they allege against it. This is cur
present state—we have-.reduced one great source of in-
direct taxation by the repeal of many of the Customs
duties—you are now attacking another source of indi-
rect taxation by motions like the present, affecting our
Excise duties, while the principles upon which direct
taxation can be atisfactorily established are still sub,
jects of controversy, and are even at this moment under
the discussion and investigation of a Parliamentary
Committee,—(Hear, hear.) Now, I ask the House
calmly to consider, is that a satisfactory state of the
finances of the country?—(Hear, hear.) Is it not wise
to pause before you diminish the revenue which you
derive from your indirect taxation, until the House and
the country have arrived at a knowledge of the proper
principles upon which our direct taxation is to be estab-
lished?—(Hear, hear.) Can anything be more injurious,
can anything be more unwise, can anything be more
rash, than to diminish the sources of your indirect tax-
ation, when at the same time you are challenging the
principle upon which many sources of your direct tax-
ation is now established?—(Hear.) I put that view
with great confidence for the consideration of the House.
—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman has referred
to my having two years ago supported a motion like the
present.—(Hear, hear.) If the House will do me the
honour to refer to the few observations which I made on

that occasion, I am sure it will do me the justice to say
that those observations vindicated the vote I gave on
that occasion.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not like to refer to
personal consideration; or to introduce them into this
debate, but as my vote on that occasion has been re-
ferred to, I beg the House will do me the favour to re-
fer to the circumstances under which I gave that vote.—
(Hear, hear.) The House was informed from the Throne
that a great productive interest in the country was suf-
fering—an. interest which I and others represented in
this House.—(Hear, hear.) We thought there should
be such a remission of taxation as would relieve the
suffering of that particular interest; but the Minister of
that day, in the possession of a surplus, said he would
neither apply any portion of that surplus to the relief of
that interest—or, on the other hand, to the diminution
of the public debt, which, by a consequent diminution of
general taxation, would be a source of general relief.—
(Hear, hear.) Bat, on the contrary, would apply the
surplus to purposes I did not approve of, and in a
manner which I thought was unjust and impolitic—
(Rear, hear)—and all I meant in the vote which I gave
on the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman and
in the discussion that took place was this—that if there
was to be a remission of taxation which would neither
relieve the particular interest announced from the
Throne to be suffering norlrelieve the general interest by
diminishing the general taxation of the country by re-
ducing the debt, then I preferred the motion of the
Right Honourable Gentleman to the policy of the Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) I have infinitely preferred to
promote the general interests of the country by the re-
mission of the duty on paper, or by the repeal of the
duty on advertisements, or by the abolition of the news-
paper stamps, than to endeavour to do so by the means
which were then recommended by her Majesty's Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hoar.) Ido not see that a position
more fair could be taken by any Member of this House
—(Hear, hear)—and from the recollection of which I
confess I experience no regret.—(Hear, hear.) I can-
not enter into the interesting details with which the
Right Honourable Gentleman has again favoured us as
he did two years ago. I am not here to dispute his
facts, or to challenge his conclusions; but I cannot
permit myself, in the present state of affairs, to view
the matter, in connexion with the social condition of
the country, which the Right Honourable Gentleman
has dwelt upon, or the political consequences that he
foresees; I take a more, interested view of the subject,
and a more limited and narrow-minded one—one
confined merely to the effect of the motion of the Right
Hon. Gentleman upon the present state of our revenue.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman has brought
forward a motion which would reduce the revenue by a
sum now approaching .to nearly 1,500,000/.—(Rear,
hear)—because all the items to which he ha* referred
are on the increase.—(hear, hear.) Ido not of course
pretend to give the accurate figures, bat I wish to ob-
serve that the Minister of Finance may look to an in-
crease of the revenue received under the three heads to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion has reference.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman has asked
the House to assent to a motion of very great import-
ance; in a week it will be my duty to place before the.
House the exact state of the finances of the country; d
I think lam not asking too much when I call uponthe
House to permit me to place before them the first finan-
cial statement which I shall have the honour to submit
for their consideration, and which I shall submibtrtzatchoeom
in a few days, without tho burden and incumw
.0.
the House assenting to a vote such es tbat.2trine;:3
Right Hon. Gentleman has brought forward (
I do not think that it is an unreasonable prgoopgosiiiiliosani;
(Hear, hear.) I cannot think that the Iblitiof the Right
tion, under the circumstances, the. motet)
fon in the present
Hon. Gentleman—(Hear)—and it is with this feeling—
limiting my consideration of m
Laineial effect upon
instance merely and strictly to it.
on this occasion
the revenue of the country—offersingo
which, under the
no opinion on those wider questieonnoi
doubt he was jus-
circumstances in which he spl
tified in calling the attention 00..ctohme
milontiss, onb House—but
next
Fri-
ing to place before the Hou t
day, without any of the.keemsebarrassment which I must
the present, a clear and un-
experience from a vote It
our financial position, I feel it
disguised statement f
my duty, Sir, to oppose the motion of the Right Hon.
Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.)
after he
Mr. WAICLEY hoped that the subject would be tsken
into consideration by the Reinighetntli, oanndGesnctalreemian
Ivad made his financial stet
that under the eircunasttaoncaensy tohn%......de(hisiteearc,oeuhlydeatrhhe)oupgHrhoet-
longed with advantage
hoped the Right Honeuratble Gentlemee the Member for
le eree o the proposal of the Right
assent to the adjournment
Manchester won.- ne
Honourable Gentlemen, and.
of the debate until that d_ ay fortnight, or some other
period after they had heard the financial statement.—
Habeggedto metre that the debate
(Hear, hear.)
should be adtoarned.
rose to second the motion of the Hon.
Mr. COBDEN
Member for Finsbury, and must eay that he had lietoned
with great attention and with much eatisf,ction to the
Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.)
speech of the
This was not merely to be considered as a fieancial but
as an educational question,--(gear, hear.) He had sat
on a Committee to inquire into the state of education in
the country,
and he found that almost insuperable diffi-
culties were presented to the education of the people
by themselves.—( Hear, hear.) Is was his his wish to
contribute to the removal of those difficulties by the
repeal of the taxes with which they proposed to deal,
because they were tam that affected the education of

the people.—(Hear, hear.) He was struck with a fact
t which had been mentioned on the subject by a gentlemen
who took great pains on this subject—Mr. John Cassell
—who bad published a great number of valuable troths
for the labouring classes. He had placed ie his hand a
statement of those publications with the amount of text-
tion imposed upon them by the legislation of ;hat House,
and he told them that it weighed' upon his efforts to
educate the working classes to the extent of 4,0001. a
year.—(Hear.) When the House pretended that it wished
to educate the people, and alleged that it had appointed
a Select Committee to consider how they could best
administer the public funds for the education of the
people, if they retained a law that would impose restrict-
, tions upon their self-education they would place them-
selves in the position of hypocrites before the world.--
(Hear, hear.) He could not convince himself that to re-
move the newspaper stamp would impair the revenue.
The newspeper stamp yielded 350,0001., and if they took
off the statue, end dealt with newspapers like everything
else going through post, they might receive, if not the
claire, et least Enlarge portion of tnat sum as postage.—
(te3rt inthlh) Every stamp put upon a newspaper was
a stamp upon modern history, in which they were all
interested.—(Hear, hear.) The 9 stamp on the newspaper
was the greatest obstacle to the progress of intelligence
in this country, because
entirely from tho greatitm akeptsa ef thet h
the
newspaper
hear.) It would be -of the greatest
rural population'to be enabled to inform
questions of labour, of w themselvessoppalop.— people.—(Haar,
tiaosrn,,t,
advantage to the!:
laud
dh
in respectthe o
colonies,
ntihees,snabLeLeitn foreignoftecontries, and thy
cost of passage to Australia amilg
gndssunichanihnafomrlmetast,ioitn shouldweuld
hear.) Every person must admit that, •
be of therargtwreea
Canada.—(Hear,
villages
sinafind Ithenewanaperb
tflyttei to
advantage by awakening curiosity on the
population, and stimulating them to go where) they
e
would get a better reward for their labour.—(Hear,)
That would tend to diminish the rates which now press
upon the rural districts, by stimulating the agricultural
population to go to other quarters where they would
better their circumstance; but at present the agricul-
tural mind, so far as the peasantry was concerned, was
as much a blank on those questions as in the times of
their Saxon forefathers.—(Hear.) A great number of
the persons who were lost in the Amazon had relatives
living in England; and he had been informed that one
of the great difficulties of the philanthropists who had
formed themselves into an association for the relief of
the relatives of those who were lost, was to find out the
friends of the partLe, sua in Homo epees they wont
parties who had not previously heard of the calamity to
by
which their friends had suffered.—(Hear, hear.) The
reason of that was, because the greater part of the people
were shut out from hearing the current events of the
day.—(Hear, hear.) He thought this was a question
that affected the education of the people, tud he hoped
from what the Right Honourable Gentleman had said,
that the Government with which he is connected would
deal with it in a satisfactory manner.—(Hear, hear.) If
they carried out the suggestion of his Right Honourable
Friend they could do nothing that would be more calcu-
lated to give them popularity; it would make them more
popular than anything else they could do in their situa-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He was inclined to hope for some-
thing on this question from the Government.—(Hear.)
lie must bear his testimony to the fact, that in the Com-
mittee last year he was pleased with the conduct of the
Member for the University of Dublin, who is now a
member of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) For his
conduct on this question they felt they were deeply in-
debted to him, and if his spirit animated the Cabinet
with which he is connected, they might hope to see the
question fairly dealt with by the present Government.—
(Hear, hear.)
Ifirtehmeythe diirdhavinhdast withw as
a necessary,
cordial a
they
would receive itre-
cognition of its value as from any other Gsovernment.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL wished to make a re-
mark in reply to an observation that had been made in
reference to him, as he conceived it was calculated to lead
to a misunderstanding of his conduct respecting House-
hold Words.
Mr. M. GIBSON—The Household Narrative.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—He thanked the
Right lion. Gentleman for setting him right, and he
begged to inform him that the information against the
Household Narrative had been filed by his predecessor in
office. It was insisted that it was a newspaper and liable
to stomp duty, and the matter was discussed in the
Court of Exehequer. The judges differed upon the
question, there being three to one In favour of the
exemption of the publication in question.—(Hear,
hear.) The late Attorney-General and Solicitor-
General had the subject submitted to them for consi-
deration, and it was also submitted to the loading
counsel of the department of the Stamps and Taxes,
and they were all of opinion that the judgment of Baron
Parke was a more correct judgment than the judgment
of' the majority of the Court.—(Hear.) When he (the
Attorney-General) came into office the case was laid
before him and the Solicitor-General, with the opinions
of their predecessors, and they considered the course
that was to be pursued. Without entertaining a very
strong opinion one way or the other, they felt it
was essential that the law should not be left in
the uncertain or unsatisfactory state in whieh
it was, and that it was desirable to obtain
the judgment of a superior tribunal.—(Hear, hear.)
Under those circumstances they recommended that a
writ of error should be issued, and the opinion of the
Court of Error taken on the question.—(Hear, hear.)
On reflection, he could not feel that ho had acted other-
wise than withl a due regard to the interests of the public,
and with an earnest desire that this important question
should he settled.—(Hear, bear.) In answer to the re-
mark of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that no prosecutions
' had been instituted with respect to certain other publi-
cations, he begged to say that he never before had heard
of most of them, and that he had never seen any of
them.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. COWAN hoped that they should not be placed in
a worse position on that day fortnight than they were
at that moment, and thought it would be satisfactory if
they received some further assurance from the Right
Hon. Gentleman.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—If the
Hon. Gentleman wishes me to tell him what I intend to
say on Friday week, it is really not in my power todo so.
Mr. M. GIBSON.—I was not in the House, but I un-
derstand that the Right Hon. Gentleman said the ad-
vertisement and stamp questions arc under the considera-
tion of the Government, and under the circumstances,
and with that understanding, I cordially agree to the
adjournment —(flear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I em
sorry there should be any misunderstanding on the part
of the Right Hon. Gentleman with respect to anything
I said. So long as I have the conduct of the House I
should be very much annoyed if any deception had
taken place.—(Hear, hear.) I should not wish the Right
Hon. Gentleman, or any of his friends, to think that the
question is under the consideration of the Government
at all with reference to his motion, or more specifically
than it is the duty of the Government to consider the
taxation of the country on all its branches; in that way
the consideration of those taxes is not omitted,—(Hear.)
No statement has been made by me to lead him to sup-
pose that it is under more particular consideration—
(Hear)—the proposition for adjournment did not come
from this side.—(Hear.) I proposed no terms. I merely
stated that on to-morrow week I shall make the financial
statement.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME hoped the Government would well
con-
eider the question, and begged to inform the Righttallon.
ware
Gentleman of a fact which, perhaps,
of. A deputation, consisting of about fifty
having
ring
in-
dividuals connected with the paper trade, h
he head of the
on Lord John Russell, when he was attet
he was not
d to them that
Government, his Lordship distinctly
one :would view t.—
financial grounds, and as
Hume)
newspaper ould suggest that the
he rested his objections to their propstaition entirely on
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. in
as letters and parcels passing
put in the same category
did not want to deprive
the Post-office, for they
newspaper stamp be removed,a
and let newspapers be
through postageh--(Hear, hear.)
91 000,000 copies of newspapers
It appeared that while d
in this country in the e ear,
altogether circulated the Government of a penny of
were
the number circulated in the United Staten amounted
to 422,700,000.—(Hear). He begged to cull attention to
a paper that had been established in Norwich for the
instruction of the neighbouring population. He (slr.
Hums) thought Norfolk was as much benighted as any
county in the kingdom. A weaver published the paper
to which he had adverted with a fair desire to benefit his
fellow men; bat in stepped the tax-office and said ho
extremely
view,
y p p
should not publish it. He (Mr. Hume) considered that
in an
ini
nedauv
icseaut educational, lt,he moral,
public,an fiscaldand
ho
was point
because by that course time would be
that his Hoe. Friend had moved the adjournment of
the
debate,Government given to
the vernment to consider the subject. For his part, scarcely knew any means that could be taken by
he
which the agricultural community would he more beee-
fitted than by taking off the paper-tax.—(Hoar, le an)
Mr. MOW A.TT regretted that the Hon, Member for
Manchesterthe debate. : hadue atdhoepet:hdttihtewseuuseldgeshfatevne for adjourning
bettor t
adjotirninge
have gone to a division, as the result would probably
have had the effect of strengthening the hands of the
Government in any wish they might have put an end
was, this injurious tax. But as itas, he
hoped the mo-
tion was for a bond fide adjournment of the debate to .a
specified day.
Mr. FREWEN (amid cries
of " Question") said, in
deference to a resolution passed of a com
at a meeting
mittee in Sussex, embodied with the view of procuring
the abolition of the hop duty, to the effect, that as the
new Government had just then come into office it would
only be fair towards them that he should postpone his
motion in reference to that question, he had accordingly
postponed that motion, not wishing unnecessarily to em-
barrass the Government at the very moment they came
into power.
The debate was then adjourned to Wednesday the
12th May.
The Exchequer-bills (17,742,8000 Bill, as amended,
was considered.
The Linen, &c,, Manufaatures (Ireland) Bill was read
a third time.
The Loan Societies Bill and the Stock-in-Trade Bill
severally passed through Committee.
The House adjourned at a Quarter past Eight o'clock.

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ELECTION ,EXPENSEs.—Pire find it stated in the
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Amounted to the round sum of ten thousand pounds.