The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-31 00:00:00

fund available for immediately carrying out a resolution 1 promptitude, in orlscl„ereitp.ant thet steamers might be ready for
of that House upon the subject.—(Hear, hear.) The war purposes at a
Lord PALNIERSTON said he hoped iron steamers would
not be subjected to the system, as
expense had been, he thought, underrated by the Hon.
Member; but even that was not the main difficulty. Itcould not be used for
the purposes of war.—(Hear.) they
would be necessary to reserve to the Government the
Captain DUNCOMBE said the Admiralty had already ar-
pos er of investigating all the details of the question, rived at that conclusion.
for he apprehended that some difficulty might arise be- THE WINE DUTIES.
tween naval officers and crows of mercantile steamers Mr. ANSTEY THE WINE DUTIES.
moved for a Select Committee to inquire
serving together in cases of emergency.
teplaee Thu crews
tinhteoitmheecratusdedstlief the decline of the revenue derived from
might also probably be unwilling on wines. He did not mean to contend
under martial law, and it was here that the chief diffi- that the duties hads declined during the last two years, but
e
culty lay.—(Hear, hear.) He was perfectly certain that that the revenue
that less now under high duties than in
the present Board of Admiralty would rejoice if every
former years it had been
vessel now belonging to any company could be rendered esdthe underl
consumption
duties.
had l e
been
l reate
prove
under lower duties
subservient to purposes of defence, and he was not pre- larger. In 1788-90 the wine trade wasr and the revenue
pared to say that by strict economy such a desirable re- comparatively free. The genius of Mr. Pitt had emancipated
it from many regulations which the rejudices of former
suit might not be arrived at without any considerable lays had imposed. The treaties of 1786 with France had
increase of expense.—(Hear, hear.) The Admiralty been made the prelude for remission of the duties, which had
would carry out the resolution proposed by the Hon, been. reduced from 9s. 2d. a gallon to 4s. 6d. on French
Gentleman in the fairest spirit, and is the earnest belief
swaiindes:,a4.!hte3s.a gallon on Peninsular. And Mr. Pitt then
that it might be brought to a succ ssful issue.—(Hier,
n opportunityreduction on the dutyfer will
exporting increase
fathefabrics
ce n s ultln p -
hear.) And he thought that the following words of lion and afford an
Mr. Laing before the Committee afforded some encou- the capital and navigation of he country areengeigesedi,aawndifeobr
ragement for hopicg, that in cases of emergency disposing of cotton and woollen and hardware manufactures,
no insuperable difficulties would arise on the part of as well as increasing our revenue." In 1784-86 the annual
consumption of all wines imported had been 3,350,131) gal-
the merchant seamen towards rendering the mercantile lons.; in 1788.90 (after the reduction of duty) it had risen to
marine available for the defence of the country. Mr.
the774e2,6t00
of 2,292,530
showing an increase of consumption to
Laing was asked whether he had any means of knowing en88,536-1,29L531079rfa1h10n5, and the revenue had in-
what were the views of the merchant seamen and engi- creasedx
6,437,2ootconsumption was 7,850,000
neers on the subject, and whether they would make any gallons; in 1819, only gallons; yet
. the popula..
complaint against being subjected to the rules of the tion had doubled in the meantime In the reign of Charles
Queen's service. Mr. Laing replied—" The only proof 11. the duties on wine had been on. ly 4d. or 6d. per gallon,
that I can give is this. Last year, at a time when there and in 1669 the consumption was more than 9,000 0 0
Was disturbance, and no one knew what the result might lons (of imported wines)—more than it had ever been'o
since.gai-
Under the Methuen treaty, in the time of Queen Anne, the
be, I received orders to have so many ships in readiness
duties had been increased to about 53. a gallon. In' the
period of Mr. Pitt the duties had been reduced, and since
as might be required. It never entered into my mind
that time had* been varied fifteen times. About twenty
to ask the crews or engineers any question on the sub-
years ao under
ject. I merely told them that ships were wanting, and Mr. Robinson, the duties had been reduced;
and the consumption had increased from 5,000,000 gallons to
that we did not know where they were going to, and
they never asked any questions about it, nor exhibited 8,000,000 gallons. In 1831 there had been a step towards
the least reluctance." It was in no niggard spirit that improvement by means of the equalisation of duties. But
the Board of Admiralty accepted the proposition of the in 1840 the duties had again been increased, and that. in-
Hon. Member, but in the earnest hope that the defences crease liad continued to the present time,
the
on
thus provided would be found sufficient, and that in these French wine being 55. 6d. a gallon. The effe'cttofe
ferential duty in favour of Portuguese wines was, that heeordet
arrangements a good feeling might be promoted between
the navy and the' mercantile marine, so that another that natural price of a pipe of Port would, but for'
thewO
connexion might be formed between those sister branches Wine Company, be let, and even under the monopoly ofP thatrte
company would be only 201., the duty raised it to 331. Th
of the sea service of the country. The Admiralty ac- effecth of the raising of the duty in 1810 had been to decrease
cepted the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman in the
atned ctounesru,mption from 7,486,000 gallons to 6,550,000 gallons ;
Anantr6eoaotLy, tothle,7a9voe,Oro.ol.
spirit in which it had been brought forward, and he
anna;....41,..-7......a alias the best results would be found In five yevaernsullilloa: following it'll': l‘irfentlule.
annual amount
the
duty had been 848,5091. In the five
Captain arise from it —(Hear, hear.)
1,148,7551.; iv
fiveluties of Mr. Pitt, the amount
Captain SCOBELL considered that the statement of years following
had been I,l4,Leearasinfooul following the -
the Hon. Member the Secretary to the Admiralty was
lion of duty under Mr. Robinson
1839 ditbeifandat)eout
very satisractory, and he thought it would
1,500,0001. In the five years following
go far to show that the country was perfectly safe.—
i 1,849,081.; and in 1850 the amount had been (after the
illecrne.aAseleofbthe duties) 1,167,99(1/. From these premises the
(Cheers.) The speech should properly have pre-
aridncritetheneddeudtitehastetntlpieedrtuutgieusesaheowulidneba,ebeuqtubaylisdedil
ceded the debate on the militia last , night, for
increasing it would have dissipated the doubts which many not by
, ssinocneFtrheench wines—a course which would
Honourable Members entertained with regard to the minishing the
defence of the country. He rejoiced that the be the more just, Portuguese had systematically
rawctaicsabfle, or at all events, as
Admiralty had thought proper to avail themselves of disregarded the Methuaeaninatreaty._ ueprecating any resort to
'fraud, he oopinion that a duty of
every means of defence for the purpose of guarding the
oapnenadingvatnloeredninndruttyn
Is. a gallon on French wine, answering
timeFanearlysr
assuming t
haes
British Channel.
leade twould
Admiral STEWART rejoiced in the employment of
inecraena s
e equitable duty, and at the same
e
Possible to the 1 franc octroi duty
mercantile steamers in cases of emergency, but be
consumption of real (not spurious)
ces sti
two
yearsoonf
could not shut his eyes to the fact that in the mixed erows
which manned them there might be great difficulty in and to an accession wine,
oinaen
ago to the Noble Lord the
obtaining that amount of discipline which was necessary memorial presentedac revenue. According to ri,
n all vessels employed as a national defence. He Member for the City
per annum. Now
it appeared that in Paris
should feel rejoiced at everything that would add to the the amount of wineyconsumer, at 1 franc duty was at the
cordiality of feeling between the mercantile marine and rate of 216 bottles per head
Tin
arylidelda ahravenue
the navy.—(Hear, hear.) An Hon. Gentleman had consumption of wine in this
stated that there were not ships ready to go to sea, but the extent of three bottles per hena
of three millions, in place of one milli
zittowbeldincreased to only
he overlooked the fact of their screw-vessels; and he
(Admiral Stewart) hoped the day was not distant when rbaeisediesevjtthnslosmnuch difficulty. Supposing the amount to
vessels of war would no longer put to sea unaccompanied sumread in Hamhurottilles per head (half of the amount theton-
g revenue would be benefited to
by a tender or screw. There was an important ques- the extent of four millions pert annum. Such a revenue
tion asked—" How was the active list to be kept would enable the Governments get rid of much of the
efficient?" That was a very difficult problem.—(Hear, house duty, to reduce those taxes which
te pressed upon the
hear.) He did not say the late Government had solved comforts of the people, and would lead anperospective re-
the difficulty, but they had taken an important step peal of the malt tax.—(Hear, hear.) ad already
towards the alleviation of the difficulty.—(Hear, hear.) stated that the monopoly of the Oporto Wineb Company
It could scarcely be done by reference to the years of enhanced the price of wine in Portugal. He might
add that it was intimately connected with the sub subject-
fought the officers, as in other countries, for Lord Duncan
matter of his motion, for it was well known that excessivejt-
fought one of his greatest battles at the age of seventy
taxation on commodities
nded of this kind not only checked corn-
) years.—(Hear, hear.) Another great problem was the petition, buAttttehe
rteosecnretate an artificial taste for spurious
manning of the navy and the state of the gunnery. The
Govern-
gunnery afloat now was as different as possible from that articles.
eaty their system of taxing moment the Portuguese
oerts, got 350,0001. per
in use at the close of the last war—as different as a amnnum, more out of the pocketsor tri,people of this coun-
blunderbuss from a rifle. He now anxiously pressed on try than they were fairly entitled o The Hon. and
the notice of the Admiralty the fact that they could not Learned Gentleman concluded by expressing his
g belief that
pay too much attention to the education of the seamen' the adoption of his motion would lead generally to more
gunners of the fleet. He denied there were tyrannical friendly commercial relations between this and other
officers in the navy at present; the day for that class of countries.
men was passed over, and he asserted the British navy The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Hon.
was better treated than any other class of men in the
and Learned Gentleman has entered upon a very long and,
abbe I collect, a very accurate narrative of the history of
the
public service. wine trade; he has sketched it from the period of.
-the French
Captain HARRIS regarded the statement of the Secretary treaty of 1787, and has gone back, indeed, to the treaty
of the Admiralty as most important, particularly as it was of Methuen. I can assure the Hon. and Learned Gentle):
divested of all official reserve. He did not admire that offi- man that I entirely sympathise with the policy recom-
cial reserve, because the French and Russians were quite mended by Mr. Pitt—a policy founded on a high corn.
aware of the resources of this country, both by sea and land. mercial principle. I recognise the great advantage which
—(Hear, hear.) The arguments of the Hon. Member for both countries derived from the policy then pursued, but I
Bath was, that we had not a sufficient number of steam- may be permitted to say, that the principle adopted by Mr.
vessels to prevent the advent of a foreign power to our Pitt was the principle of reciprocity—(Hear, hear)—and
shores. And almost in the same breath he said, that our de- that although we have at several periods reduced the
fences were sufficient, He (Captain Harris) was at a loss to duties on French wines, we do not find that France has
reconcile these two statements. manifested the feeling of reciprocity for which we were in-
Captain SCOBELL had stated that we had a sufficient debted to Mr. Pitt. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman has
number of ships, but that we had not men to man them, also stated some general principles of taxation, to which I
Captain HARRIS said that was the case, and that was also give my assent. I think with him that reductions of
the reason why Parliament was now called upon to provide
taxation may lead to increased consumption, but at the same
some additional defences, which would be available in case
time I feel bound to take into consideration thei circumstances
of sudden emergency. He was truly glad that the Govern-
under which that increase of consumption may take place.—
Lent, at the eleventh hour, had proposed to
by means of a reserve force. He had himself suggested that
considerable reduction in the wine duties in 1831, and I
plan, and he hoped that in working it out, some margin
therefore think it is necessary, in reference to the revenue of
would be left to the Board of Admiralty to lay down such
the country, to treat the subject with considerable caution.
regulations, especially with respect to the service of warrant The motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman is not, in my
officers in the coasting trade as they might deem necessary. opinion, accurately expressed. He asks for a Committee to
He was glad that his suggestion as to a naval reserve had inquire into the cause of the decline in the revenue derived
been adopted by the late Board of Admiralty.
from the import duties on wine. Now, it is not accurate to
Mr. HUME said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stafford) bad
say that there has been any decline in the revenue so de-
satisfactorily proved that our coasts were not so denuded of
rived. And to show that lam correct I will place before
protection as had been said. He trusted that the Admiralty
the House the last return, only just received of the
Pb
would not allow the practice of sending home shi s. f r
state of the wine trade for the last four years—and
to bring bullion merely for the purpose of giving wa
tentage to the captains. The Hon. Admiral (H. Stewart) a
aPrte)r here, perhaps, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman will pardon
ew
me for saying that I think, in order to form an opinion as
had talked of the high feeling of our naval officers, and had
to the state of the revenue derived from the import duties
stated that they were well affected to our commercial
on any branch of commerce, it is more practical to look to
marine. How could tbat be the case when our naval officers
l the times in which we live than to those of the Methuen
would not throw out an anchor or a cable to merchant vessel treaty or the French treaty of 1787.—(Bear, hear.) Now
in distress without demanding salvage? This was an
here is a return of the quantities of wine retained for home
which ought to be remedied. No captain of a French abuse
consumption, and I will first take revenue; for it is upon
American man-of-war ever demanded a shilling for see • es
0 the decline of revenue that the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
rendered to a merchant vessel, but in this country many
man has dwelt. The return is drawn up to the last
our officers had sued in the courts to obtain payment from
moment, and, from it, it appears that the amount of duty
merchants for services rendered to vessels belonging to them.
received on wine in the year 1849 was 1,732,000/. ; in 1850,
An order had, he understood, been already issued remedying*
a portion of this abuse, but he hoped the Government would 1,767,000/. ;in 1851, 1,821,000/. ; and in 1852, 1,777,000/.
The House will perceive there is a slight decline for 1852,
complete what they had so well begun in that respect, and
but that is entirely attributable to the large quantities
direct that our officers should afford assistant to merchant
of wine taken for home consumption by vintners and
vessels in distress without claiming any salvage. He must
licensed victuallers in anticipation of the increased con-
state that a very great improvement had of late years sump by strangers visiting the metropolis to see the
been effected in the pay, provisions, and accommodations
Amer'- Great Exhibition. It is a curious circumstance that all
of our sailors. No difficulty was experience by the
cans in manning their navy, and he could not con • the arrangement made in this respect were ill judged and
why the English navy should be an exception. lie ceive
led to very great disappointment. Not only our own cowls
doubted
-men congregated in . the metropolis, but especially

much whether the proposed naval reserve would do much
good. If the House considered the statements made in the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stafford), and considered
also the speech made the day before yesterday at Paris by
the President, in which he stated that he wished to cultivate
most amicable relations with other countries—that he in-
tended to reduce the armament of France, and that the law
was re-established--he thought they might dismiss the sub-
ject of a Militia Bill altogether.—(Hear.) Our colonies did
not require ships of war for their protection. It was singular
to notice that no mention had been made in this discussion
of the United States, which, in fact, was the only com-
peting power with us as to a mercantile marine. At the
termination of the Mexican war the United States reduced
their naval establishment in order that they might husband
their resource', so that they might more effectually employ
them if a war should break out. This was an example that
the Government of this country ought to follow. He wished
to encourage our commercial navy. Let free trade be the
word, and then we should find no difficulty in manning our
navy. He would merely add, that the statements which
he had heard from the Government was extremely satisfac-
tory—( Hear. hear)—for it evinced on their part an anxious
desire to improve the condition of the navy, and also to at-
tend to practical suggestions made by others.
Mr. W. COWPER wished to refer to one statement which
had been made by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hame), who ap-
peared to have got rid of his usual
good temper when he
spoke in somewhat disparaging terms of the officers of our
navy. Those officers had only received
entitled to receive by the law, and thereforewhat they were
rights. they could not
could not
They eayecwuseerde
be blamed, for demanding their legal
.o;.notives.
earnen,
gallant and honourable men, and they
of being actuated by any grasping or unworthy
naval re-
(Hear, hear.) He approved of the system
serve, which he thought would furnish a body 01:
who would be paid and bound to assemble and
when required. He considered that blame was 041istihips
to be placed on Government for taking into account stltY.
amount of naval strength of foreign powers. Our ineani
of defence ought to bear some proportion to the means oe
attack possessed by foreign powers. He was of opinion
that our defences were not altogether in so satisfactory a
atate as they ought to be; for he believed it would be found
that France had relatively a greater naval strength than we
had. He did not think the fear of invasion was such a folly
as had been described. He felt satisfied we were by any
means dragged into a war with any foreign power, that power
Would most certainly attack us by attempting to invade our
Shores. Colonel Moore, who had treated the subject
scientifically, was of opinion that any attack upon this
country would most probably be made in several places
simultaneously, so that if our naval force were concentrated
c)4 any one place, the attacks at the two others would very
likely be most vigorous. It was said that disembarkations
Were dangerous things—no doubt; but that did not prove
that they were not likely to be attempted, or that they
might not be successful. For, in war, the most audacious
attacks were often the most successful.
Captain PECHELL said he was sorry he had not heard
the speech of the Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty, but he
Understood that the Hon. Gentleman had recommended some
sort of system for the defence of the coast. Now it was
absurd to place guns in a coast town without fortifications;
it was only the way to get the place battered down. Mere
guns were no defence against steamers with projectiles. Did
the Hon. Gentleman then mean merely to mount guns?
Mr. STAFFORD.—No.
Captain PECHELL.—Did he, then, mean to fortify the
Coast towns?
Mr. STAFFORD.—No.
Captain PECHELL.— Then what did the Hon. Gentleman
mean ?
Mr. STAFFORD.—As the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
Was not in the House when I spoke, he can scarcely expect
to understand what I said,—(Hear, hear.) I said the south-
eastern coast was now defenceless.— ( Hear, hear.)
Captain PECHELL.—WeII, let the Hon. Member make
another. disposition of the naval force. He hoped such a
system as that of the martello towers would not be recurred
which was nothing more than a system of jobbing
hy, there had been a great ditch dug 30 miles long and
Sheet wide, which was expected to stop a French army
that had crossed the Vistula or the Rhine.—(Laughter.)
however, it was really too bad that Hon. Members should
delay the business of the House by prolonging a discussion of
this sort-( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," in the midst of
.Which the Gallant Gentleman, as if perceiving the applica-
"on of his observation to himself, sat down.)
_ iMr. ANDERSON shortly replied. He was so gratified
vlth the extremely satisfactory speech of the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Stafford) that he should withdraw his mo-
lu.s--( Hear, hear.) He first wished to explain two points.
ilie expense of the system he proposed would only be about
ANA a yam.; Aildibtobioct of Ail loboim OSPeCi#IIY

tryt.t...
foreigners,tHhaeatrt,hheefaerr,eiagnnderas
instead of wine drank beer, and particularly
quantities.—(Hear,
laugh.)
poltr, Ter
i• represented esenteCl enormousto
diminution in the consumpticn of the year just
drank nothing but London porter, and this accounts for the
apparent
concluded. But even in 1851 there was not a general
decrease in the revenue derivablei from wine.
The diminu-
tion was only in one article. Especiallyanticipation of an
augmented consumption of that article by foreigners, the trade
diminution Compared
only in that artiele that a . appears..
with little foresight took port wine out of bond; and it is
out of bond in 1850, in anticipa-
lionwith 1849 and 1850 there is an increase. A consie.erable
quantity of wine was taken .
there were, in 1851, 340,000 gallons, and, in 1852, 447,000
of the Exhibition. Of French wines taken out of bond,
gallons; so that in the year just ended there is an excess
of 107,000 gallons. Of Spanish wines there were, in 1851,
2,469,000 gallons, and, in 1852, 2,553,000; showing an in-
crease of 84,000 gallons in 1852. The diminution, there-
fore. has been in the wines of Portugal. Of the wines of
Portugal taken out of bond for home consumption, there
were, in 1849, 2,446,000 gallons; in 1850, 2,648,000 gallons;
in 1851, 2,800.000 gallons ; and in 1852 (showing a
diminution), 2,524,000 gallons. Comparing 1852 with
1849, however, there is an increase. The Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman will see, therefore, that the
terms of his motion are not correct.—(Hear, hear.) The
quantities of wines of all kinds, including Cape, retained
fur home consumption during the last four years are as
follow :—ln 1849 there were 6,136,000 gallons ; in 1850,
6,251,000 gallons ; in 1851, 6,437,0V0; and in 1852,
6,280,000 ; the last year exhibiting an excess over 1849 and
1850, and nearly equalling the great year 1851. Therefore
I again say it is erroneous to assert that there has been any
decline in the revenue derived from wine.—(Hear.) Sir,
if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman really requires a com-
mittee to inquire into the revenue derived from wine, I,
knowing the assiduity which he would bring to bear in the
investigation, will not oppose it.—(Hear, hear.) But it
appears to me that he is perfectly master of the facts of the
men - . , The principles of
in this llouse.—( Hear, hear.)
case, neocd;obnatyarviehailesho a
the
eeat number of other Gentle-
Honourable and Learned
Gentlemen
appears to me
on consideration
that Committee he would not
with even the
arrive at more
Perhaps,
motion
neinetr accuratehaecheelasm
therefornow stated.
would apply are familar to most of us, and it
iib. results than he has
, therefore,
eift
eel:8
el:
tt
itoslnfid.erwdi t
h Learnedthe
a eeGentlemanurate
anut, atbetdhue
engage the attentiotnheof .anheand able
one
winetinhbe
considering
House,duties
musta nd
the notn
collectione
ces presss a
rilhisy
of the revenue ,of
appears to me that there are country;m
superior claim to consideration atyth
aerticles which possess
Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer than the
(Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly it would hands of the
deal with the duties on wine. We might verycii possible to
and not at the same time injure revenue; but lilt
ish dutiee,
necessary to proceed with caution. At the sane time, be
must repeat my opinion that if import duties are to bmeej
di-
minished, there are many articles which have very superior
claims over the different wines imported into this
country.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that if the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not now able
to answer the question which he (Lord Palmerston) was
ties; 'none time,win
about to put to him in connexion with something which
had fallen from the Hon. and Learned slember who had in-
troduced the motion, he would perhaps furnish the required
information on a future day. His Hon. and Learned Friend
(Mr.o pAerntsetevvv)inheadcemy i
advertedpan to the great abuse practised at
the n reference to the wine trade
between Portugal and this country. Her Majesty's late
Government had had representations made to them that the
regulations established by the Portugues Government with
regard to the Oporto Wine Company, and the practices of
that company, were inconsistent with the stipulations of the
treaty of 1842. It was the opinion of that Government
that these representations were well founded, and that im-
pediments and restrictions were imposed upon the exporta-
tion of wine from Portugal, and on its importation to
this country, at variance with the 4th article of the
treaty. Strong representations were made to the Govern-
ment of Portugal on the subject, and at the time at which he
(Lord Palmerston) ceased to be Secretary of State for Fo-
reign Affairs, an understanding had been established between
the two Governments that after the general election had
taken place in Portugal, the Portuguese Government would
remedy the abuse complained of- that either by some altera-
tisn by the executive Government, or by some new law to
be proposed to the Cartes, the practices of the Oporto Com-
pany should be placed in harmony with the regulations of the
treaty to which he had referred. Ile felt bound to say that
the Vroyilumeut of kortugal not only Adraittta that the re-,