The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-11 00:00:00

SUN,

The Llouse then wTeHnEt i alit
clI LCloTmlmAi.t t
ee on the Militia
Bill, resuminglir.no.
m,, at elause 7.
the Bill, -'' said this clause contained
the essence of
which
Bo - Was the
,000 men.
Believing creation of a reserved force of
he moved that that the money would be wasted,
and he hoped the Chairmanshould
the n report progress;
question should be ouae would agree with him that this'
Mr'
ALp referred'
. w
orz 5 to a new Parliament. •
reasonable. The Bill tad the proposition was not very=
hoped therefore the dee. .4 been repeatedly affirmed He
the guide to -lawn on one case *
another. would not be
Mr. HUME would, und- ,
the sense of the House
Mr. BRIGHT said, the two state e the
clause.
Tents made the other
night by the Homo Secretary and
the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, respecting these 80,000
al-
tered the circumstances of the case.rae,p altogether
had just taken place was not unexpected,i Clivisi°n that
lieved, unsought by the Government. I,le nor, he be.
'''
to a division with one speech on each side Such . °u"
cattle
circumstance was unprecedented. A
.majority
c)
f 94
had pronounced against the Government. .This proyea
that the Government did not enjoy the confidence of tie-
')
House of Commons. The Right Hon. Home Secretary
said this was a different qUeSIAOO, and that majorities 6f..
the House had expressed their assent to the principle.
It was a different question, but he denied that the majo-
rities were on the principle of the Bill. A question of
such great importance, involving an expenditure of
three-quarters of a million of money, and 80,000 men, for
martial purlieus, with the ballot in perspective, should I
not be decided in a dislocated Parliament like the pre-
Beet- Referring to the speech of Lorons d
ide Derby
it alto-
at the
Mansion-house, he (Mr. Bright) C red
gether a peace speech; and the speech of the French
Ambassador, speaking not only for hie own Govern
ment, but for the whole corps diplomatigue, toes a most
satisfactory assurance that not only was there no queer
ttonin dispute with France and other countries, but
there
was, in fact, perfect amity. If those distinguished
men could be believed, what
should be thought of the
Government for urging forward such a measure as this
—a measure of a more dangerous character than any
that had been proposed since
taking by the Government was
1815. The course now
to produce the result which theyone the best calculated
One of the Ministers of the French professed to avoid.
to an English gentleman in Paris
President had stated
that nothing was more
calculated to excite ill-feeling in
France than the dis-
etagQll3 UGYVY ping Qa inVarlianient 40 in gab country

LONDON,

on the subject of this Bill. The same Minister had pre-
vented by his own power the insertion-a- extracts from
stole speeches, for the
purpose of preventing heat in
the mind of the French people on the subject. Under
these circumstances he thought the Cu it
after should
not be asked to divide ea the clanee; - tat; the
division to-night, the Bill should at least bo postponed
for a few days until it should be • reconsidered by the
Cabinet, if it was not postponed until the assembling of
the new Parliament.
Mr. J. BELL agreed with the Hon. Member. that the
circumstances of the case had changed since
ve the intro-
duction of this Bill. There had been posi evidence
since then of the fallncy of the fears that had prevailed.
If the French Presidentedesired t/ invade this country,
ho would have taken 'advantage of the period whenehis
country was left without a Government. He hoped,
the *House would accede -to the proposition of
Mr. FOX'said there was one'remerkahle change since
tthheeree efeonre.,, Member for 'Manchester.
the introduction or the Bill. It bed been stated that
two successive Govertinients had given their assent to
the measure, loading to the inference that they were in.
'possession of pri-vs.te information; but the Noble Lord
at the head of the late Government had declared
conviction that there was no immediate or urgent ,tien-
ger-n(" Hear" froni Lerd J. Ras sell)—while the pre,
sent Government had postponed the urgent principle of
the Billa:-namely, the ballot—to the close of the erk ar.
The inevitable conclusion was, therefore; that no data-
gor existed, and that there could be no public wrong
in postponing the measure until the next Parliament.•
'He (Mr. Fox) was of opinion that thiseneesure was .the
prelude of a change of policy as respected the foreign
relations of this country; and for making it more of a
military' power. It was, therefore, a measure- which
should not be entertained by a inoribunal Parliament.
The country would regard as an ominous conjunction
the revival of protection and of a military force, in the
nature of an army of reserve. Oa grounds of prudence
her Majesty's Government-would do well to have this
Bill postponed.. - •• -
Mr. WALPOLE declined to enter on the general ar-
gument,' not from any disrespect to the lion. Member
for Manchester;but because the principle of the mea- •
ture.bad been frequently discussed. The clause before .
the Committee had been debated during two nights, and
there bad been more than one division upon it. Under,
these circumstances, he thought the Committee could
take no other course than that-of proceeding with it;.
and the Hon. Member for Montrose would see that
there was no ground, therefore, for his • motion. The
lion, Member for Oldham would, however, remember .
that the urgency, of the measure was declared by him
(Mr. Walpole) not to'' be the ballot, but voluntary en-
listment. He hoped the House would, therefore, go on
with the clause, whioh had heen twice before discussed,
andosn whieh there. had been; three' divisions. •
Mr...RUME only 'Wished that Parliament would not
enter on such a large expenditure- as 80;000 men in.,-
volved at the present moment, but defer it until after the
general election. • -' • ••
Mr. FOR BBS notild not see -what' an addition to the.
Parliamentary representation had t© do with the de-
fence of the country. He might. be wrong as to the
nature-of the danger, but he certainly did tbink there
was all the less of it when the country was prepared.
He could not understand the objection of 'Hon. Gentle- •
men opposite to the militia, when he considered.their
antagonism to standing armies. The militia was con-
stituted on a fat better footing thanehe National Guard
of France, or the militia of America. Ho (Mr, Forbes)
would rather' pay taxes than have contributions levied
on him, either directly by foreign bayonets, or indi-
rectly in the form of a forced loan. He would not be a
party to defeating the Bill in any shape whatever, be-
cause he believed it to be ab solutely necessar y.
Mr. WAKLEY thought the discussion of this Bill
should be persisted in until her Majesty's Government
were convinced of its inappropriateness. 'The vote of
that night had changed the. circumstances; the Govern,
mant had sustained- a' defeat on a strictly Government
treasure. In a House of 382 Members the Government
were absolutely in a minority of 86. He would ask every
constitutional Member whether an instance existed of .a
Government who so completely wanted the confidence of
the House being entrusted --with the : conduct of such an
important Bill. Ho would ask the Chancellor of. the Ex-
Checpier if ho could put his finger on any constitutional
precedent? lie denied that the precedent could be
found. Well, then, in that case it was• the duty of the
people's representatives- to discuss. the principle of the
Bill. -The Bill was dreaded and abhorred by the people.
charged with aing with a
Wanit a Bill which the minority ought to, allow to-pass?
this measure; be. was satis•
flianetidnuida
pnaorttycairne anbboarurtubeterinngg
find -with-the consciousness of meauing to do bin duty
Lel his country honestly and fairly. When the Bill
was first introduced by the Noble Lord -(Lord J. Rus-
sell), be had implored the Noble Lord to show any suffi-
cient reason for such a Bill. He. had heard no reason,
stated. The Right- Hon. Gentleman opposite had also
assigned no reason why this Bill was more needed in
1852 than iii 1842.-• He was for peace all over the world;
but it appeared to be the wish of She supporters and
framers of the Bill to produce as many provocatives to'
war as possible. As far as France was'concerned, be
saw 00 symptoms of a warlike character.'. The French
had had enough of disturbance; they apparently wanted
nothing now but peace, and he believed the present ge-
neration el French people would not be anxious to go to
war. Such a Bill as the one before the House ought to
be obstructed, and defeated if possible, by every mode
which the forms of the House would admit of. The
Government ought not to press forward the Bill this
session; but if they did force the Bill through Parlia-
ment by the aid of a tyrannical majority, then, he be-
lieved, they could not vary much like what would be
said at the hustings of their conduct.
Mr. W ALPOLE—The Hon. Gentleman had com-
menced his speech by saying that Government were in a
minority, and a Government in a minority ought not to
advise the Crown to raise 50,000 men for defensive pur-
poses; and he concluded his speech by telling Govern-
meat they ought not to go on with a tyrannical majority
against the wishes of the people, who, he believed, were
decidedly against the Bill. Now, if it be a fact that Go-
vernment were in a majority, and that the House, by a
majority, had confirmed the principle of the Bill, was it
not right that the Bill should be, proceeded with?-e.
(Hear, hear.)
pie of the Bill; `arid 'they were new-called upon to con-
The House were agreed upon the princi-
sidpr the details. The lion. Member might show that
the' principle of the Bill 'was bad, but ,that principle,
"having been affirmed, he would not discuss it then. If -
the Ron. Member was right in his argument, the.proper
time would be to diecUse the principle at the third reading.
-Mr. B. ELLIS well knew the effect that the former
Militia Bill had on the rural population.. He wad satis
fied the proposed "army of reserve" would produce simi,
lar effects 'when the -term of enrolment expired. They
WOuld-retnrn tonheir homes and former occupations to
deprave and demoralise the population.
vernment. The persons, he believed, who were most
NEWDEGATE said the Hon.:. Member (Mr.
Wekley) had-spoken of the division against the Go-
surprised at that division were those who supported the
amendment. A great number of Members had left the
House, not anticating a division. It was with the
greatest difficulty ho got into the House in tine° to give
his vote, and there were several'Membera in the lobby
He deeply lamented inn state of 'consternation because they couldue get in.
tion of Government was perfectly fair and liberal, and
be
would tell Hon. Members who had professed liberal the division. lie thought
po-
liticspropene
that they could not have taken a more unpopular
made than that of voting against the Government mea-
sure. - It was said by Ilan. Gentlemen opposite that
they must not pass measures of importance in a mode
bund Parliament, but by their acts they desired to pro-
vide an incomplete Parliament to carry important mea-
sures. Hon. Members opposite argued-that the votes,
of Members_ representing large constituencies ought to
tell for more titan one vote, each. All their argument
turned against them—because bye the recent division
they declared that the representation should not be more
rqually distributed.—(Hear, hear.) • Now with re-
spect to the militia measure, the ;Honourable. Member(Mr. Ellis) said he objected to it because of the grievous
moral effects it • would produce on the population. The
Hen. Member said he remembered tbe_ consequences
which resulted from Abe last local militia. This Bill,
however, was not intended to be a local Militia Bill.
But it appeared eller° were special oircumstances which
made the Hon: Member abhor both'a militia or an army.
Those reasons were doubtless very creditable to tlao Hon.
Gentleman;;' he-deprecates a resort to arms,he deprecates
military power altogether, and of content he deprecates a,,
'militia. But WraCCollllt of those, special reasons the
Hon. Member was not at liberty to give, an unbiassed ,
'opinien, -The Hon. Member came to tbodiscuseion with
a foregone conclusion. Amid though the Ilene Member
was justly entitled to give an opinion, still that opinion
must stand singly.--(Bear, hear.) With respect to.
dividing -the- House, he trusted 'they would, not have
another snap division—(Hear, bear)—like what had just
taken place. He trusted' the House would not permit
ilinprineiple of • the Bill to be mutilated in Committee,
-which they had already sanctioned. , The principle bad
Inver and over again been confirmed to it was vain, there-
' fore, to expect to defeat _the measure—it could only be
uselessly obstructed. •
Mr.. ROEBUCK would just look at 'the recent divi-
•sion so that the House might understand the fact. The
numbersl were 234 for, 184: against; the pairs were 80—
and these together made a total of 462 Members. Now,
462 was a large portion of that House, . though it had
,been said many went away, not,expeoting a division;
'tbat argument might operate on both sides.'—so that there
twas an end of the Hon. Gentleman's snap division.
'The tact was, 'that the Hon. Gentleman knew the ma-
-3.lohbritaittt yt
question.'
presenta
ttihosnt,,i.i The
ee
Governmentowpiansi 0 t
pao ifungte
ought
arnap,naasaesuntdth
;is,
'that • •
Ameasures neeessar for the d
y goo - government of the
`6enittrY; to-defer etth the Government
simplye° VW:
all other measures, and to bring the
Parliament t
the Militia /311111 n end. -He readily acknowledged that on
a majority of the House was against him.
But he understood
Lion which pd how that was. First, the Administra-
a Similar. Bill,
andod the prwent Government introduced
was bound by th• a large portion of their supporters
Lord had since brlvotes they gave. But
the Noble
etood), and was m loose from his fetters (we under-
Militia Bill. againstTeaa,, militia; Bill, or at least this
representing a -large sviiolnarge portion of the House,
the
were strongly against all Mtlitersofia* population, who
addressing Government in con ills. They were now
vote, by which their minority waTilien"' of the recent
to view. And they said, " Why notretenarkably brought
tended to do? Do just enough to carryon what you in-
business until you can go fairly before the
the public
and when you get another Parliament,
do what
stitutional Government ought to do."—(atrer:tr! a con-
u , hear.)
Supposing Government wore in a majority on this Bi'
they would still be crippled; for they who were in a mi-
nority would turn round and sea, " Any Government
naateu as you are, as a constitutional Government,
ought to resign." It was clear Government could not
escape from the diffieulty, except on the principle that
they would appeal to the country. If Government told