The Sun.
London, England, 1864-04-23 00:00:00

mation respecting the matter which corresponded with the
accounts which appeared in the newspapers, and had com-
municated with the Government of the United States.
CAPTAIN MELVILLE WHITE.
In reply to Colonel FRENCH,
Mr. LAYARD said that despatches had keen received
from her Majesty's Chargé de Affair& at Hamburgh, to
the effect that the award had been made, but that it was
unfavourable to Captain White.
CHINA.
Mr. LIDDELL moved that, in the opinion of this house,
farther interference on the part of this country in the civil
war in China is impolitic and unnecessary. The hon.
gentleman condemned the course adopted by this country
in regard to China by our interference in the military ope-
rations in that country, the object of which, he contended,
was to introduce British supremacy there, It was not his
intention to ask the house to pass a censure upon the Go-
vernment, although he considered their policy erroneous in
very many respects—but he wished them simply to join
him in the attempt to dissuade Ministers from continuing
in the course which was unprecedented in the past, and
which he hoped would find no favour in the future.
Mr. LAYARD, after ceemplimenting his hon. friend on
the ability displayed in his speech, explained the course
which the Government intended to pursue in reference to
the resolution 4,:nat had been submitted to the house. As
he (Mr. Lreyard) was precluded from moving the previous
question, he should move that the Speaker do leave the
chair, If the resolution were carried, and sent to China,
together with the debates upon it, disastrous consequences
would ensue. The hon. gentleman proceeded to sketch the
history of our commercial intercourse with China from its
commencement until the signing of the celebrated treaty of
Tien-Tsin, or Pekin, which was the most important instru-
rnent entered into by England with any Eastern nation.
It had caused a great change in the state of cur relations
with China, and had put an end to the chronic state of
war which had previously existed. Our great difficulty
lay in restraining our consuls and other officials, who,
having been brought up in the old school, were in the habit
when a grievance arose, of insisting upon immediate redress
without referring the matter to headquarters. But it now
appeared, from the papers which had been laid upon the
table, that Sir F. Bruce had succeeded in almost every case
in keeping the consuls under due restraint. In all the sea-
ports which ware thrown open to our commerce by the
treaty of Tien, tsin, the English had the benefit of ex-ter-
ritorial jurisdiction. They lived in separate quarters from
the Chinese, and were exempted from the law of China. As
to the Taepings, they were marauders and plunderers con-
nected together, as everybody now admitted except the hon.
member for Aberdeen (Col. Sykes). Well, these Taepings
came at last to the neighbourhood of Shanghai, and repre-
sentations were addressed to her Majesty's Government.by
the Chamber of Commerce of Shanghai to send troops
there—and he would ask the house, if notwithstanding
those representations, and notwithstanding the statements
of their diplomatic agents in China, her Majesty's Govern-
ment had declined to send the troops, would they not have
been deserving of the strongest censure ? If assistance had
not been given the Taepings would have entered Shanghai,
and the result would have been an immense loss of life and
property. There were three courses open to her Majesty's
Government—to leave Shanghai :to be defended by the
Chinese, to defend it with English troops, or to allow Eng-
lish officers on half-pay to aid the Chinese Government in
disciplining their soldiers and sailors. Of these three courses
her Majesty's Government thought the last the most con-
venient one to adopt. The hon. member had referred to the
30-miles' radius, and said that it had been exceeded ; but
he was prepared;to show the house that the 30-miles' radius
was a military question, which had been resolved upon
after due consideration at the recommendation of Admiral
Hope, Brigadier Savory, and other naval and military
authorities in China, and that positive orders were given
that ,it should not be exceeded by troops in the service
of her Majesty. This radius of 30 miles only applied to
the two treaty ports of Shanghai and Ningpo, and it
would entirely depend upon military considerations whether
or rot it would be applied to other treaty ports. It was
true that in one instance Gen. Brown deemed it necessary
to exceed the 30 miles' radius, but nevertheless the order
was adhered to that the limit should not be exceeded.
Atter taking the advice of Sir F. Bruce, orders in council
were issued enabling English officers to enter the service
of the Chinese Government. With regard to the massacre
at Soochow, it was impossible to avoid condemning the
barbarity committed by the Futai, but later accounts which
appeared in the China Mail showed that it had been very
much exaggerated. After reviewing all the circumstances
of the case, he was inclined to take a favourable view of
the course pursued by Major Gordon, an officer of whose
ability and discretion he entertained a very high opinion.
Placed in a position of great difficulty, and deceived by the
Fatai, ho had to consider what course was best to take, and
it seemed to him that if he had quitted his post the troops
would have gone over to the Taepings, and a dreadful mas-
sacre would have ensued. In consequence of the repeal of
the order in council Major Gordon was no longer in the
service of the Chinese Government. The hon. gentleman
then referred to the breaking up of the flotilla in conse-
quence of the Chinese Government having refused to ac-
cept the services of Captain Osborn and Mr Lay ; and after
defending the character of Captain Osborn from the taunts
of Mr Goldwin Smith and other writers, ho said that the
stores and ammunition supplied by this country were paid
for with the exception of a balance of about £3,000, for
which there was sufficient security. With regard to Mr.
Lay, it seemed that he exceeded his authority, but he was
4 man of largo views, and had large ideas as regarded
China. (Laughter.) Mr Lay's idea was that he might
introduce civilisation into China, and reform the Chinese
revenue; and, looking at what he had effected in three or
four years in the revenue department of China, he (Mr.
Layard) maintained that it was impossible to resist the
conviction that he was a man of great power. The policy
of her Majesty's Government in China was to avoid all in-
terference in the civil war as long as it did not approach the
treaty ports—nor to meddle with the interior of the
country. The object of accomplishing that 30 miles radius
was to defend the treaty ports, and not to take part in the
civil war. And had their policy in China been successful ?
The enormous increase in the British and foreign trade
with China—an increase even exceeding that detailed by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to our imports
and exports at home—was the best proof that it had. Had
the Taepings been permitted to enter the treaty ports, and
had all that vast trade been cut off, how great would have
been the responsibility of the Government I There was
not a respectable merchant who would not be horrified at
the notion of our policy being reversed. That policy had
likewise been approved by the representatives of America,
France, and Russia, and they had expressed their opinion
that the employment of the fleet under Captain Sherard
Osborn bad proved most useful. No Government could
take upon itself to overturn the marvellous results which
had been brought shout in China, and therefore he would
move that the Speaker do now leave the chair.
Mr. W. E. FOR STEIL said that the question really
befor the house was whether the Government were to be
sanctioned in continuing their interference for the purpose
of putting down the Taeping rebellion, and that question
the Under Secretary had not attempted to answer. He com-
plained of their policy that it had not only not been right
with regard to China, but not fair towards the house; and
condemned our recent operations against the Taepings as
a species of buccaneering. Captain Sherard Osborne, how-
ever, had acted nobly in returning home. He had resisted
all temptations, and thus saved ministers from consequences
such as they would have rued for years to come. With re-
gard lo protecting the treaty ports and our treaty rights,
he should like to knew whether the capture of Sooctiow,
which was accomplitihed chitfly through the assistance of
British officers, was necessary. In looking back upon the
history of the past, it was impossible to deny that we had a
good deal to do in creating the anarchy now prevailing in
China. The end of this policy would, he feared, be to throw
another Chinese war on our hands and oblige us to effect
the conquest of the country.

Mr. FE RRAND denounced the policy of successive Whig
Governments with regard to China as unjust, cruel, and
dishonourable, and declared that, however cruel Russia
might have been in Poland, or Austria and Prussia at this
moment in Denmark, the conduct of England as a nation,
acting under the direction of Lord Palmerston, had been
ten times worse.
'rue hon. member was continuing his speech, when the
house was counted out at a quarter past 8 o'clock,

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