The Sun.
London, England, 1864-03-19 00:00:00

THE MTN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 19, 1864,

evening, said that many of the remarks which had been

elicited were received with an unbecoming levity on the
Ministerial side of the h'use, while that (the Opposition)

side of the house had exhibited upon the occasion a degree
of warmth and a passion which was entirely out of place.
(Hear, hear.) Still they had a great duty to perform, not

only to the public of this country, but to. the sovereign of
France. He did not hesitate to say that there was no man
whose life was of such value to Europe at large as the Em-
peror of the French. They were told this was an indiscre-
tion on the part of the hon. member for Halifax. It ap-

peered to him that there had been coneeentive blunders,

He did Rot think that any man possessing proper feelings

ought to have gone into an Administration carrying with
him the friendship of Mazzini. (" Hear, hear," from the
Opposition.) Nor did he think the noble lord ought to
have invited a friend of Mazzini's—not a secret friend, but
one who gloried in it as being a friendship with one of the
greatest philanthropists of the day—to join his Adminis-
tration. Lord Russell, when introducing the Conspiracy

Bill into that house, spoke of him as " that assassin
Mazzini," and related a story of a young man whom
Mazzini sent to Italy, giving him his own dagger, and fur-

nishing him with money to plunge that dagger into the King
of Italy. (Hear, hear.) If the hon. member for Halifax
had read that speech, or heard it, it was something more
than indiscretion to have friendship with a fellow like that
—(laughter, and Opposition cheers)—a man noted through-
out Europe, and well known in this country, as the father
of assassins, as the man who sent them out with the poisoned
daggers. (Laughter.) For a man to proclaim a man like
that as a man of fine intellect, as a noble creature, above the
ordinary prejudices of the world—(laughter and cheers)—
was that a mere indiscretion ? "Was it an act of indiscretion
to make his house a post•office for receiving all the treason-
able letters which were sent from different parts of the world
to the great arch-agitator ? Was that an indiscretion? It
was something more than an indiscretion ; it would form in
an indictment a very strong feature of evidence. Had the
hon. gentleman never heard of those extracts from the let-
ters of Mazzini ? If he had, it was his duty to cast him off,
but he had not done so. He should have explained to the
noble lord, when he offered him a position in the Government
owing to his splendid talents, that he was in complicity with
a man who would cause him to bring discredit on the Go-
vernment, or he should haae told Mazzini that he could not
any longer cover his treasonable letters. (Laughter, and
hear, hear.) It required a man to exercise a strong effort
of moral courage to associate with Calcraft. (Laughter.)
He would not detain the house longer upon the subject.
He believed every person had made up his mind, and, he
believed, the mind of the public ran all one way. (Hear.)
Indeed, he might go further, and say that it was the private
opinion of every member of the Government. (Laughter
and cheers.) The hon. gentleman alluded briefly to the
endorsing of the notes, and to the offence that had been
given on the Continent; he concluded by asking the noble
lord,if he would favour the house with the reasons which
induced him to keep the hon. gentleman in the Government
contrary to his wishes? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY—I must say the statement my hon.
friend has just made has placed the matter to me, if possible,
in a more disagreeable and painful position than it was be-
fore, because, if there was one point which rankled more
than another in the feeling of the country out of doors, it
was the way and the manner in which this question had
been treated inside. lam one of those who think that, if
either the noble viscount—who, it seems, was cognisant of
the whole matter—or if the hon. member for Halifax had,
when the member for Finsbury addressed this house on the
first occasion, made that avowal which was now honestly
made by him, instead of having it, as it were, dragged out
of him by the protracted inquiry in this matter—if the ques-
tion had been frankly answered, and the hon. member had
said, " It is true I gave leave for letters to be sent to my
house ; I am sorry ler it ; I was not aware how it would be
used"—if that answer had been given, this matter would
have stood in a very different light—(hear, hear)—because,
if 1 may use the phrase, it was almost studiously kept from
being acknowledged. No man could even guess, from the
answer of the hon. member for Halifax or the -Under-Secre-
tary of State, on the first nights this subject was under dis-
cussion—no one could have dreamt that it was perfectly
plain and true that the house of the hon. gentleman the
member for Halifax was at the disposal of a man who has
been sufficiently designated in this house without me saying
one word about him, as a cover for his correspondence. One
almost tempted to ask whether the letter bags of the
Foreign Office are at the disposal of this gentleman. lam
glad to see the hon. gentleman (Mr. Layard) shakes his
head ; but I say this question might be asked, because both
one and the other of the hon. gentlemen (Mr. Stansfe!d and
Mr.Layard) expressed nearly similar opinions. [ Mr. LAYARD
No, no.) The real truth, the real gist of the matter is
this—Was this house of the hon. member for Halifax so
at the disposal of Mszzini, for letters to come to him ?
No one attempted to think the hon. member for Halifax was
mixed up with any conspiracy for murder ; no one dreamt
of that—(hear, hear)—but it was only throwing dust in the
eyes of the house to deny the whole matter. Will anybody
believe a man can be scot-free from imputation if he allows
letters which he knows nothing about, and probably takes
care to know nothing about, to pass through his house ?
If the matter had been frankly owned at the first moment,
and there had been no attempt at concealment, no attempt
to keep anything back, I think the matter would have been
in a different position. lam sorry to say the noble viscount
would have stood in a much higher position, because he
seems to me to have been a party to keeping it back. The
noble lord has told us that this matter was brought fully to
his notice, and I regret the statements made by him and
the hon. member for Halifax were not properly made. There
ought to have been a disclaimer to the country and the
world, and it should have been avowed that an indiscretion
had been committed. The whole question would then have
passed away, and we should have heard nothing more of it.
If a man commits an indiscretion and frankly owns it, I be-

lievo there is no one in this house but who would say, " You
have been a foolish fellow, and there's an end of it."
(Laughter.) But if you attempt to hide it, and have not
the manliness to acknowledge you have committed a fault,
every one will be sure there is something behind which they
have not got hold of, and that you have not told the affair
properly from beginning to end.
Mr. LAYARD—I do not wish to prolong this discus-
sion, but I have been so completely misrepresented by
the right hon. gentleman and others, that I must say one
word. When the right hon. baronet the member for
Devonshire asked me a question that had nothing to do
with Mazzini or any conspiracy, the right hon. gentleman
says I did not answer whether letters were sent to the
house of my lion friend or not, and that I made use of
terms with respect to Mazzini the same as those used by
the hon, member for Halifax. Now, I distinctly deny that
anything of that kind took place, What took place was—
the hon. baronet got up and asked me whether, in conse•
quence of a statement by the public prosecutor in France,
upon evidence which he thought justified the statement that
a member of the Government had been implicated in a plot
to assassinate the Emperor of the French—whether, the
public prosecutor having made such a statement, her
Majesty's Government had made any representation to the
French Government. My answer was, that 1 thought it
was not consistent with the dignity of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to make any such representation, founded upon a state-
ment made by a public prosecutor in a court of justice in the
course of a trial. That is my opinion still, and I believe it
is the opinion of the country. I said nothing with regard
to slazzini's opinions ; what I said was, that the French
Government had made no communication to this country,
and that I was convinced the Emperor of the French, who
knew this country better than most men on the Continent,
knew that the accusation was so monstrous, that he did not
think fit to come forward with any representation.
Major KNOX asked whether it was true that the name
of the hon. member for Halifax appeared in the large majo-
rity of ten last night, and whether he considered it due to
the honour of this house that he should have taken part in
that division ?
Mr. B. OSBORNE—In the few remarks of the hon. mem-
ber for Oxfordshire he said this was a painful subject. It is
a painful subject ; but somehow I have remarked, in my par-
liamentary experience, that there is nothing in which Par.
liament so much delights— (laughter)—nothing which brings
so many members to this house—as a purely personal and
painful subject. (Hear.) I think my hon. friend the member
for Hertfordshire, when he addressed himself with so much
unction to this painful subject, could not have thought that
this painful subject is assuming an aspect of painful per-
secution. (Hear, hear.) No two lads lately emancipated
for the holidays, impaling a cockchafer, could dwell on the
subject with greater glee than the hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Southampton (Alderman Rose), and the noble lord
the member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) ; for the
civic dignitary, the honourable alderman, on a late occasion,
not satisfied with hunting Signor Mazzini through every
gyration, asked the hon. member for Halifax whether it was
true that Mazzini had ever lived in his house, and paid for
his washing. (Much laughter.) To-night another hon.
gentleman from the sister country rises and says, "Did you
vote in that majority ?" Why could the hon. gentleman
not have voted?—[Major Knox—lt is against the rules of
the house.]—l have no sympathy whatever with the views
of the hon. gentleman, but I beg leave to correct a state-
ment made by the hon. member on the other aide of the
house who said the noble lord had made him an offer of a
seat in the Cabinet. The hon. member only fills an humble
seat in the Admiralty barge ; and what this prosecution calls
for is that this clever young man shall be hunted out of that
minor office in the Administration. I am reminded by the
discussion last night that we have so little to do in the way
of real business, that wo appear to be doing nothing but de-
bating personal questions, and getting up with hypocritical
faces and saying they aro very " painful subjects." (Laugh-
ter, and hear, hear.) It appears to me that, next to roast-
ing a bishop, there is nothing so agreeable to the house as
baiting a member of the Administration, (Laughter.) Now
L I have no particular confidence in her Majesty's Govern-
ment; but I should be ashamed of myself if I were to pitch
• upon one member, and that a humble member who has no
• aristocratic connections—(hear)—and who has made his
L position by his own abilities—and night after night bait him
and use opprobrious expressions to him. I do lament the in-
. discretion that he has committed. I know nothing of M.
Mazzini. What I have heard of his views I do not much
like, nor am I very anxious to meet that hon. gentleman at
dinner, or in this house. (Laughter,) But lot it be recol-
lected that Signor Mazzini has not yet been put upon his
I t trial ; that he has to undergo a trial in Paris on these very

transactions which we are now debating. Therefore, if we
were a judicial assembly, which we are not, because we are
disqualified by our passions— (laughter)---do not let us con-
demn a man unheard—without having the facts before us.
With regard to this indiscretion of the hon. gentleman, I
will ask the house in sober sadness if we are not carrying
this matter too far ? We have had the question debated.
Baronets have come out rather strong. We have had the
member for Devonshire, and last night another came out in
a melodramatic character, and 1 never saw a part played so
well as the dagger and bowl performances by the hon,
baronet the member for Yarmouth (Sir H. Stracey).
(Laughter.) He not only spoke, but he looked the cha-
racter. (Much laughter.) We entered into the debate last
night, and took a division on this question. I voted with
the majority, not because I approved altogether the conduct
of the hon. gentleman, but I felt bound to take his denial,
and not to take a dirty advantage by wreaking revenge on
a small subject, and turning it against her Majesty's Go-
vernment. Well, sir, the hon. gentleman on the other side
—the member for some place in Cornwall—(laughter)—has
quoted that respectable legal functionary, Mr. Calcraft ;
why and wherefore, I can't understand. (Laughter.) It
all the indiscretions of hon. gentlemen in their youth were
to be visited upon them—(laughter)—how would the right
hon. gentleman on the other side himself escape? I think
the course we are pursuing on the present occasion is un-
worthy of the character of English members of Parliament.
(Hear, hear.) If I were in the position of the hon.
member for Halifax---and I think the position he holds
is unworthy of his talents—l would at once resign.
I would not consent to hold my seat there with
an imputation of any sort hanging over me. He would
return, and would return in a better place. Sir, it is
unworthy of us as members of Parliament, and will not be
responded to by the public out of doors, to go on night after
night baiting a junior lord of the Admiralty. (Cheers.)
Mr. FITZGERALD said there was one sentence of the
hon. gentleman's speech with which he entirely concurred,
and that was with regard to the fulfilling of the duties of
members of Parliament. The answer to the question of the
hon. member for Haddingtonshire had somewhat altered
the position of affairs; and he was willing to put aside the
member for Halifax, and to agree that the house was now
placed in a more serious position. The serious point which
the house had now to consider was the position which the
head of the Government was placed in, by sanctioning the
eulogium of the hon. member on Mazzini, instead of at once
doing his best to remove such an imputation from the Go-
vernment.

Mr. NEWDEGATE deprecated the proceedings which
had characterised the debates of the past few days. He de-
fended the Chancellor of the Exchequer for using the strong
terms of reprobation with respect to a company which de-
served the term of fraudulent. The house had now spent
two days in attacking a member of the Government because
in former years he had had the indiscretion to consort with
a person with respect to whom all must feel the same sen-
timents who abominated assassination. Some little forbear-
ance, however, should be shown to the hon. member for
Halifax, seeing that on the other side of the house they had
heard members session after session defending the brigands
in Italy, and proclaiming them as patriots. It was now
high time to forbear from such personalities, for certainly it
was no part of the duty of an Opposition to interrupt the
useful business of the country.

Mr. D. GRIFFITH alluding to the fact that the hon.
member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) had voted in the ma-
jority, asked whether it was accordance with the rules of
the house when a member was on his defence for him to
vote at all.

The SPEAKER said that such was the rule, but that in
the case of the hon. member for Halifax it could not be
termed a personal question.
Mr, G. DENMAN was of opinion that the first explana-
tion given by the hon. member for Halifax had not been
quite satisfactory, but attributed that to his having been
stopped when about to proceed further by cries of " No,"
which cries he (Mr. Denman) interpreted to be that hon,
gentlemen felt that they were probably being made the
instruments of inquiries which had been suggested
by the desire of those who were acting as police spies for
foreign countries, and who wished to obtain information
about Signor Mazzini, and those in correspondence with
him. He quPstioned its being reasonable or desirable, when
this matter had been so fully discussed and decided by a
majority, to deliberate on and discuss it again. The hon.
and learned gentleman then proceeded to analyse the evi-
dence on which the collusion of Mazzini and the hon. mem-
ber for Halifax in the Greco affair had been asserted by the
Ptocureur-U6neral, which consisted, he said, solely of a
scrap of paper found on one of the conspirators, without
date or anything to indicate that it had not been in the
man's possession for five or six years. He denied that there
was any evidence to show that Mazzini approved of assas-
sination, and expressed his admiration of the manliness
with which the hon member for Halifax ancl4he hon. mem-
ber for Leicester (Mr. P. A. Taylor) had defended the friend
whom they considered incapable of approving such a crime.

THE WAR IN DENMARIc,

:From the limes Special Correspondent with the Danish

Ar iny.)
DANISH HEADQUARTERS, SONDERBORG,
March 11.
We are cheered every day by the arrival of foreign

visitors—occasional English tourists in quest of a
sensation, and to-day we have even two of the Eng-
lish of Asia, two Japanese gentlemen, naval officers
of rank, as I am told, who are making the tour of
Europe to improve their minds and become ac-
quainted with the progress of civilisation in every
branch, and who have been brought hither to see
the practical uses of that art of killing which, not.
withstanding all the efforts of peace societies, will
always be held to be the noblest of human pursuits,
and call forth the greatest efforts of the ingenuity
of all ages and countries. I have seen these two in-
teresting wanderers, two little men with boxwood
complexion and lhonkey faces, but courteous, intel-
ligent, bowing to and smirking at any one who ho-
nours them with a call, half choked by the smoke of
a 'tittle parlour in the Holsteinisches Haus, and
striving to keep up a conversation with the whole
world, notwithstanding the grievous disadvantage
of their knowing no language but their own, and
having to rely on the aid of an interpreter they
picked up in Holland, and who neither understands
nor speaks anything but Dutch. With all this draw-
back, however, these wise men from the far East
have already managed to see all the Danish outposts
and bastions between breakfast and lunch, and are
now off to visit the Rofe Krake, riding at anchor at