The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-28 00:00:00

stl

county he represented, for the poor-law rating was so
"qit! and unaatistactery, that they had found it ne-
ceesary to have some systematic and uniform sa-"In in-
troiu a
s eese They had therefore adopted the system of
szru-land rating, and although the Hon. Baonot, the
wember for Londonderry, hod said that it was attended
f tth much expense, yet he believed that the cesspayers
:II" themselves greatly relieved by it, and it
gaped
them every satisfaction. He would further re-
the House that t Committee of Honourable
Zithers sat LT .thisa quaestion, cud that Committee re-
coal mended a just and uniform system of valuation all
over he!,
re ealana, to be taken under the co,guizance of some
plote-ilnle cffiser, and not under the authority of the
ere-..+Lesw Guardians. The present measure was there-
bea• L": 1 carrying out of that report, and he therefore
Sir
8,
,te pporten it.
int ir u. NORREYS said the Hon. Member had forgot
.0
•state, that in 1846 a Bill was introduced and passed
cow
1113irittee, eqaence of the recommendation of that Com-
and which had proved a complete failure, The
eailseecittbrneaatire was an attempt to remedy the evils en-
of the Y that measure, but as it was changed the whole
ress
upon sYtein of va!uation in Ireland, he would imp _
irltheseoble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, the preow
sektY of ikot proceeding with it this session, as butf
of rt Xembere could be present to join in the discussion
Pe ;,• lie 0 mentioned that the average Scale of pric
of
yajirleg to be takeu by the measure for the purposca
f4,4,,taien,,, Was too low.
pr cord 'NAAS explained that the scale of agricultural
Pr et:, was taken from the return of the prices of such
klt (4 --e at 40 markets for the last three years, which
_re
8i f V.
e
ntverage prices o' 6,000 markets.
averervu nnniNHAM NORREYS maintained that the
se,"ge prices taken were below what these returns,
err aed,,,4nd, as a proof that they were by far too low,
-nnlh the ffi r who took the scale of valuation
le-,icee ill 184 6, had stated,ee that his scale was 25 per cent.
,;sew the average prices, but the scale of prices now
KPri ..., _ 5
M ".,,,,a 25 per cent. below his.
6.• AAPIER said that the measure had been intro-
duced last session of Parliament by the late Government,
i , trete the late period of the session at which it was
13`reduced, it was found necessary to postpone it.
bad the progress that Bill made, some objections
fr‘tin been made to it, and the great object had boon in
Thnling the present measure to obviate those objections.
all e nhjecti -ins which
.had now been raised did not at
sk affect the principle of the measure, and he thought,
hwt.erefore, that the better time for arguing them would
have been when the measure went into Committee.—
pc:ar, hear.) The first objection was, as to the ex•
se. Now, the great portion of that expense was
~ember
in consequence of appeals, while the greater
;,,e,ber of those appeals were not followed out. In Tip-
rsrY, the expenses of appeals amounted to about 20.
Ve seres but out of 533 appeals lodged there for the
th'reelxiber sessions, only 12 were persisted in, and only
tia:e trifling alterations were made. These appeals
theing been made, the valuation had to be assessed, so
peal all all the expense of that was thrown away by the ap-
ee-; s not being persisted in. That expense was, how-
% trt get rid of by the present Bill, which was founded
11.4`10 principle of a uniform valuation for the whole of
Res under the tenement system, taken so far as lands
44 eobeerned, on a scale of agricultural prices, averag-
tre Pt° 14 years to 14 years. That he conceived
.to b. e
to teat system that could be adopted; and, while in
ortrnittee, the Government would bs ready to listen to
tZettggestions. He hoped the House would now con-
iito tne Bill being read a second time.
hileer,;B* CRAWFORD said that this was the best
tli ,e""011 Bill ever introduced to that house, and iff
IsQee were objections in detail, they could be disposed o
Oat it; One of the advantages of this Bill was,
4st it' we
'eke nt upon one uniform principle. He begged to
)ere 44 4 holx, that it was still the intention of the Go-
t,
ages
to bring in a Bill to settle the question of
reiloigues in reference to agricultural prices.
teesid Ilel R4WDON supported the amendment, as he
14,1,ra et'ed the Period at which the Bill was brought
Deland as
nut
belies,
b an opportune one. Members for
h:ere likely soon to leave for Ireland, and this
ers'4e he
thought 5 it would not be fair to those Hon.
Mr, vvitsie proceed with this Bill in their absence.
11l Month ITE
„p IT
SIDE said that the House was asked in
4aeemeera may to abdicate its functions, because Hon.
for Irel for Ireland were about to leave this country
the ea], a". The Bill was good and sensible—under it
an acretation of land would be made at three farthiogs
valid
_,. whereas the valuation cost 4d. an acre. No
iti enlection had been urged against the Bill.
it e° GROG AN supported the Bill, and suggested that
6:141 .be quickly got through at a morning sitting.
110118
Ptitin JONES objected to morning sittings ot the
et, el at which he thought a great deal of bad Legis-
Ze4"tetk Place. He suggested that the Bill should be
Sire t Select Committee.
tfist4* YOUNG was favourable to the Bill, and sug-
erd: .1,,,11 at it should be persevered in.
k
tam i V: SCULLY objected to hasty legislation in re-
-4.10%.° the question involved in the measure before the
Peet, '' He contended that this Bill had a political as-
tee4 and he believed it would have the effect, if its dee
oter"feereTetarried out, of disfranchising thousands of
° himi; ne objected to fixing the rate ot valuation upon
ceoe, er average than was warranted by the facts of the
rite D'illd, he contended the valuation under the poor-
knot; :le'Ple was not a just one. There was, however,
it be ~1t the Bill, and he should, therefore, suggest . at
kadeteferred to a Select Committee, in order to its being
tZrefiennaplete measure.
to r NAA.S was glad to hear that there was, in fact,
II eal objection -the - • of
eteles ~,, on to principle the Bill before the
posit, te 41 the arguments of his two Hon. Friends op-
thee she re to have effect, it would amount to this, that
irere "tild net ay-oral:pet
was
shanvoet uniform legislation in
the IZel,,*-t(llear )1.
aled ed to the details of
aeeelebesurel and if it could be pledged
that the clauses
.tittih' e sidvantageonsly amended, he should not object.
eible,etotheeaught it right to say that he intended, if pos-
After e few words from Mr. CLEMENTS,
ouse divided
For the secondrweandeinngthere..t.ippea:7ll-89
Against it .•• 6
Ma'ority .... •.• •••
on
the order of he " AMENDMENT BILL.
day for reading this Bill a second
a :tert'e more ,
-"°cet ----
4'41 suggested that it should be referred to
sure : Committee.
terf,',4_,e prerogative Amongst other results of the mea-
lon -;aul . By ethof the Crown would. be much in-
e 17th section certain offictiael pert::
1'2,84:707,., were_.ictsoteb e. lip p o i n ted commissionersf for h
epouna.
ligtet_eseene7Bo3_lol _ ring the law; The duty of these
r to w w uld be to appoint an examiner or exami-
reterre hour evcry applicatien for a patent should be
litteseem• He wished to know was it wise that such an
litsltteilvkpower should be' referred to any subjecano
LW, hoe "at 1118 position? He objected, also to the
"ittle.s.a ause it would transfer from the Courts of Scot-
Nei, lad Ireland also-,to Westminster Hall, all pro-
-14°48 Ittiaing out of letters patent. The Bill further
tateritiled to extend, by a series of payments, the law of
be the
to' the three kingdoms, as well as the Channel
"e tile ' but omitted the colonies. On ell these grounds
Of the Ilight it would- be better to defer the consideration
kr.: -oin to the text session. '
presmtWAXLEY said that great evils resulted from the
esltlterot; system
and, therefore, there ought to be an
43111 t,s'cul in the law. Ha was in favour of sending the
eoek:'4 Select Committee, ,and having practical
men
Nee tied.--(gear, hear.) The class of witnesses exa-
as tett before the. Committee of the Lords was not such
to hisetild give the most valuable information. It seemed
eel
lta !I. that the patent laws should be assimilated,to the
th,,
me
of copyright. It should make no matter who-
essr a man impressed the image of his mind on iron,
;pro d, paper; in either. ease, his invention should be
?tected. In France, Belgium,
and the United States,
te,an could secure protection for less than 10/.; why
7,lgd not the same ba the case in this country ?—(Hear.)
toelr. BROTHERTON thought that sending this Bill
11c)4 Select Committee would have the effect oB4.l)Kit to another session. lien had been ofdassure by
Bill influential constituents that they approved of the
tk.., aud he, therefore, was prepared to support the se-
d ".
k -Ading.—(Hear.)
should say that his view did not at
tilfr* j. STUART
lan;berreepond with that of the Hon. Member for Fins-
et : (Ddr. Wakley), in assimilating this Lew with that
kfielYright. The subject, however, bad not been
totaently investigated. He was not prepared to abro-
tea-'t tkhe Patent law of finis country; and it struck him
~trebl uetween the present state of the law and the ex-
•toi„-1 remedy pointed out by the Hon. Member for
flight there- many intermediate points which
Inetit
well were
ed.
He (Mr. Stuart) particu-
;ly objeetedhet
theconsidered.
27thr clause of the Bill, the effect
discoveries
lich„.wouldu be to annul all rewards for
Friend _ _
tzar.
Bede'ole. 'le - l d his
\ Imp ore of Right Hon. .
wit this Bill in the pro,.
iteet 1 110 t Implored
press through ----k be as fruitful
,°t, se-neeaeien• If he did, the result might
case of wills,
eeiehanxtuee as the amended law
in
the
end in Congo-
atlerie Was 'also hurried through with, a
land were
in the•
la a dt.lcof which the cleverest lawyers
wills. He
ther 1414114' construction of will • ...
it, (lore h as regarded the .
d would not resist
tleirlf b.. °Peel his Right Hon. Friend
, Atr, " 5e7,..,t, Select Committee. Should
'Know. , NLEy i ht the House 8
Uat tili said, it was il. g
ti I the sum© Bill as was
rep-se oete rib 8 was substana. y
last session. It
meee the" Louses of Parliament in the
Lords,
*here careful considerationof the House of
Th a great d
last year.
v, a 13di then eel of evidence had been taken
3,
___, • en „
'te again peal
down to the House of Commons, aw'
the sent hack
he should say, if
is s session had 1 to the Lords; and,
'tug to ' 4 ted er,
instead ot
the I deal
thewith'- a few days long .
' would be
the of the la. Measure just now, 1,
of
810 27th clause the --Wear.) With the exceptionov,_
Gentle 0 of the Bill a IT was not a single clause or pr Is
tb 41411 had ga'llstwhichthe H. and Learned
on. e ti urged an 404 on. and LeOn the contrary,
objection.
but Se With a, i Learned Gentleman had amused
the
*hat • (mg disa • wills,
tie
e,,, --, wills and dissertation on the subject of
°'d " 44 both Patents had to do with each other,
sit ershose, fee sabjects happened to stand upon the
tilett 10,8
to
night,to
en he (Mr. Henley) was utterly.
trem,:ti°llourabf naprohend.--(llear hear.) Certainly
thon-". berth 0 Gentleman bad dwelt at much
lio - auku the Upon the e,nestion of the law of 'wills
% 114
-*-(110 6 mesas,® more immediately before the
s, reed, , ar, hear.) So far as the 27th clause waa c0n-
.114-i. neveever, he was perfectlyready to admit that
Nth Lefet•ence t_ 3
Pre t be that this t-st difficulty. It
a matter of the grea e
,t
141,13er seam. k Is clause was not framed in tbe
dmaoned
pri‘ into eViflt tut to whether it could be amende d
th ved of its LuPreVad shay ', or whether it should be e-
t elle *ere retrospective effect, and made prospective,
°llll4t clneatiOns rather for the House to consider in
ktip 1 tee. sae
was quite
lhqestien int"-C" was quite ready to teke any .
reasonable
de Illltierateod consideration; at the same tinaeit should
kslt with .31 that the snbjeet was one which must be
tiltllher for l ..-I!°Ple Way or other. (Hear.) The 1.1.9ni
v e till
___ medueleurgh (Mr. Cowan) had stated that
alp it, 74 all invasion of Cowan)
Queen's prerogative;
iilar etaieT event of the Commissioners appointed by
tit 4 °I the doing certain things, it would be an inva-
gl,3.,A)
ii , Queen's prerogative. That, to him (Mr.
'llinvevero did sot appear to be a very logical

mode of proving his case. The Hon. Member seemed
to think it hard that Scotland and IreWel should be de-
prived of the privilege of settling their or quarrels in
their own courts. Now if that were so—if there
were a pretence for saying that anything of
the sort was intended—he (Ur. Henley) would
readily agree with him. But the mein principle of
the Bill—and he was sure the House would agree with
him that it was a sound one—was, that England; Scot-
land, and Ireland being a united kingdom, if there were
a patent law in existence, it ought to operate through-
out the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) That was a main
principle of the Bill; but whether the. machinery for
carrying it out was the best and simplest that could he
devised, and not capable of improvement, he should be very
sorry to say. If improvements were requisite the Com-
mittee would be at liberty to make them. With regard
to the Commissioners—it being conceded that it was do-
sirable to have one patent law for the whole of the
United Kingdom—of course a machinery must be set up
which would be common to the three countries.
There, then, was the necessity for the Commission,
which would be composed of the Master of the Rolls.
one of her Majesty's judges, and the law officers of
this Crown in England, in Scotland, and in Ireland.
And as to the reference to be made to the Commis-
sioner, if a Scotchman wanted a patent in Scotland, be
• would refer to the Commissioners in that part 'of the
United Kingdom; and so with an Irishman, be would
refer to the Commissioners in Ireland. On the
other hand, if either thought peeper, he could take
out a patent in London. Another point, which might
be open to consideration, and in respect of . Ithich the
Bill might perhaps be amended in Committee, concerned
the extension of the patent law to the colonies; and if
in Committee it should be considered that the preroga-
tive of the Croren was not sufficiently saved by the Bill
as it stood, he was inclined to think it might be amended
by introducing a clause for that express purpose.—
(Hear.) Most persons desired, that the measure should
he made as simple as possible, and that was his (Mr.
Henley's) desire, and the desire of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. It was their great object to simpihy the law,
to save exeense, and if possible also to save parties from
future litigation. With regard to the difference said to
exist between patent right and copyright, he confessed
he saw but little. He believed a man could only sus-
tain the latter by proving his works to be original, and
could only sustain the former by proving them to be a
novelty; so that in these particulars he thought they
were very nearly analogous. Oh, but it was
sometimes said, you give a man a copyright,
and he sets his views forth for the advantage
of the world. True, he did set them forth for
the advantage of the world, and then he set his own
price upon them at the same time.—(Hear, hear.) And
it was just the same thing with patent right. He could
not, therefore, see much distinction between the two.—
(Hear, hear.) Yet many persons of great practical
knowledge had contended that there was a distinction,
and that the system of patents ought to be done away
with altogether. He was not of that opinion, ,and he
hoped, therefore, the House would agree to the second
reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) - One word with re-
gard to the expense, which was, after all, a most ma-
terial question. He believed that a patent for the three
kingdoms could not at present be taken out for a less
sum in fees and stamps—independently of the expense
of employing a patent agent—than 2501. or 2604 By
the Bill before the House it was proposed that it should
be obtained at a cost of 251., and that of itself was an
enormous boon. Then if, at the expiration of three
years it should be found that the invention was so useful
as to make it desirable to extend the period of the pa-
tent, it could be renewed upon a further payment being
made. He feared that by the reduction of the patent fees
to so low a point a considerable loss might, he did not
say would, accrue to the Treasury. .[Mr. WARLEY—It
will be a gain to the public.] But of course if parties
were to have a privilege they ought to pay for it.—
(Hear, hear.) Still he did not say it was certain the
loss would arise. That depended entirely upon the cir-
cumstaece whether cr not the number of patents in-
creased in consequence of the comparative cheapness of
obtaining them. As to the question put to him by the
Hon. Member for Edinburgh, he had throughout ex-
pressed his readiness and his wish to send the Bill to a
Select Committee, and he 'hoped the House would con-
sent to its second reading, in order that in a Select Com-.
mitten' those amendments might be introduced which
were found to be necessary.
Mr. CARTER took objections to certain portions of
the Bill, and observed, that whatever might be the loss
it would entail upon the Exchequer, he the not believe it
would be so great as the Right Hon. Gentleman appre-
hended; for, according to the schedule of fees, the total
amount of the cost for the first period of the patent
would amount to 149/. I Is., a sum which, in his opinion,
was immensely toe high.
Mr. MUNI' Z denied that this Bill was the same as the
measure of last year, ande nschoectornuscitdeed. If
red t
hweascoanssbenadteda
Bill as could possibly be
to its second reading, it should bo upon the assurance
that the examiner should not have power to decide upon
the value and utility of an invention. Frequently Seven
years elapsed before the utility of a patter, was ascert
tained; in his own cafe, it took that period to convince
the 'allelic that his invention was a good one. Where,
then, was the use of the examiner? A more important
point even than that was the clause which rendered every
pattern invalid which had been used abroad. Why, no
patent could be maintained under such a clause as that;
for they had only to bring over a vagabond from the
other side of the water, who would swear to anything, to
swear to that. With respect to the fees for patents, the
Government had power to reduce them without legisla-
tion, and he would advise them to do so, and let the Bill
stand over for future consideration.
After a few words from Mr. GREENE and Mr.
WILLIAMS

Mr. R. PALMER questioned the propriety of their
pressing to its final stage at the present moment, when
little time remained for a full discussion of the subject,
a measure whidh introduced new machinery and new
principles into the patent law of the kingdom. It com-
prised two distinct classes of clauses, to the immediate
passing of one of which into law, if embodied in a mea-
sure by themselves, ho had no objection. This class of
clauses referred to the reduction of fees and the tme
provement of legal proceedings relative to patents. But
the other clauses of the Bill ought not to be proceeded
with now, or at least they ought to know whether .the
Government on their own responsibility gave their ap-
proval to the measure. It was prepared by a Noble,
Lord in another place, who declared himself unfavour-
able to the maintenance of the patent laws, and hoped
for their ultimate abolition, and he (Mr. R. Palmer)
could trace the tendency , of that Noble Lord's mind in
that respect in the Bill. They ought to know, then,
whether the Government on their responsibility gave
their assent to a measure of that kind, the effect of
which would bo to undermine the patent laws of
the kingdom. There were two principles in-
volved in the Bill which would have this effect—.
one was that which did away with the power of
the Crown in the colonies to grant patents there; the
other related to foreign patents and to English patents in
foreign countries. One of the clauses embodying this
latter principle declared that the use of a patent abroad
would be as fatal to a patent here as if it had been used
in this country. Under that clause it would be impossi-
ble for a patentee to establish his right in a court of
justice, such would bo the difficulties of obtaining the
requisite evidence from all countries of. the world. A
second clause, that when a foreign patent relating to the
same invention as an English patent shall have expired,
the English shall expire at the same time; and a third
clause provided that patented articles which might not
be used in English ships, might be made in foreign ships
in British waters; thus giving an undue advantage to
foreign over British shipping. Besides, the preliminary
investigation proposed by the Bill, before granting a
patent, would require a large staff of officers, and expose
the patentee to two suits to establish his right, one before
the examiner, the other before the Attorney-General.
and then the decision would not be final. He objected
also to the provisions relating to the publication of plans,
specifications, and drawings, as being inefficient. En-
tertaining these objections to the measure, ho should, if,
there were a division, vote against its second reading.
Mr. eiTALPOLE said, if his Hon. and Learned Friend
had been present when his ,Right Hon. Friend the
President of the Board of Trade had explained the object
of the Bill, he would have found that it did not interfere
with the principles of the patent, but maintained that it
was a wholesome stimulous to invention. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman especially objected to the clause re-
lating to foreign ships, and to, inventions the use of
which was known in foreign countries or the colonies.
With regard to the first, tee object was to anticipate
those differences which might arise and become matters
of law in reference to foreign ships carrying their nee
tionality with them, which would be extended to articles
used on board ship. The' President of the Board of
Trade hied stated however, that the Hourse in passing
the Bill was not bound to adopt that provision. With
respect to the use of inventions patented in the colonies
or abroad, he agreed with the Hot .and Learned Gen-
tleman that the principle of the Bin in that regaid re-
quired great and 'careful
econsideiition. Btit those two
provisions Were quite independent first
tentdent of the main object of
the Bill, which
of a patent to. the" iiivoendinainish the expense
re-
duction would be from Lorca and
the .
,to . 251.
and next to establish one patent fsoo6rothe three main
divisions of the United -Kingdom, sto prevent a
tentee being obliged to take separate patents for Eng-
Pa •
Eng-
land, Ireland, and Scotland. He could not help thinking
that the effecting of these purposes - would constitute a
great benefit to the public and the inventors; and for the
objection
W
of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Muntz)
to the
examiner, the object of that officer's functiens as to
give to
the law officers of tbe CroWn an assurance,
based on scientific knowledge, that the inventions pro-
posed to bo patented were worthy of a patent.. But if
there was an insuperable objection to that provision it
could be alteredil in Committee. He hoped the House,
the Bill to be reed a second time and
then, would a.
referred to a Soewlect Committee after which they could
to which he had adverted,
see whether they would adopt the 'whole Bill or sepa-
rate from it the two provisions
The Bill wadi then read a, second time, and ordered to
be referred to a Select I. n' Bill was read a
Committete:
The Scotch Mills for Flux (t e ad)
second time.
LAW OF WILLS AMENDMENT BILL.,
Tlip House having gone into ColL,mitt" on this Bill,
Oa the first clause,
Mr. BETIIELL stated that the abuses
arti4
of wills ron
()fete.) law relative to the signature • ng out of
the state
dered some measure of this kind necessary. As tho law
stood at present, no will was valid which had not the
signature " at thq end or foot thereof( but these words
,had led to as much difficulty
and doubt as had ever lul-
lowed the ambiguous. "phraseology
of on Act of l'arlia-
,eet. The interpretation of which these words were
susceptible made the law in this respeet,a delusion and
a snare. . It had been held that if the signature to a will
was not placed at the end of the last clause of it,' the in-
strument was invalid. The present Lord Chancellor,
wishing to remedy the evils of the prese4 Systen3 and