The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-23 00:00:00

S U N,

LON DON,

felt still more for his temper and discretion. It was only
in a ease where the money was likely to be applied in a
menner contrary to the intentions of Parliament that
he (Earl Grey) advised their intorfereuce. The❑
with regard to the opinions he would- only make one
&tort observation. In 1849 papers were laid before
' Parliament, and given to the world, and sent out to
the colony, in which was the fact that an opinion
of counsel unfavourable to the company had
been pronounced; but, at the same tine, he had himself
explicitly stated his opinion to be in favour of the com-
pany. These opinions were known in the colony three
years previously. The whole question was whether
the settlement between the company and the settlers was
a fair and proper one. The fact was, that it was one
most favourable to the settlers. The circumstance of
that opinion having been given was known to all the
world, and no attempt was made to disturb that settle-
meat. He could only express a hope that the inquiry
would take place; but in the meantime it was their duty
to adhere to their bargain, and let them have the advan-
tege. He thought that out of justice to the company
the arrangement as suggested by her Majesty's Go-
vernment ought to be maintained. The settlers of New
Zeelaud had no right to complain of that—they were to
be charged with a quarter of the gross proceeds of the
sale of the land towards the discharge of the com-
pany's debts. Now, what gave value to the land
was the expenditure of capital by the Parliament
and the company; end that being so, it was desirable
that the New Zealand Company, who had received
nothing for their largo expenditure for many years,
shou'd have that amount from the land. The settlers
could have no right to complain of that as being unjust;
but he thought it was an error in the Bill not to state
that the future liabilities which might arise under the
Act of 1847 should be defrayed out of the NOW Zealand
land revenue; they had certainly no right to come upon
the British Treasury or the nation. Teat was the view
he entertained while he held the Colonial seals, and it
would be satisfactory if the Bill had contained a clause
to that effect. With regard to the larger and more
general question, the Noble Lord who spoke second in
the debate entered fully into it, but he did not think his
Noble Friend had read history very correctly. He did
not think he could say that the old American colonies
had complete control over the land and revenues of the
coloeies,

Lord LYTTELTON—By their charters.
Earl GREY—That, of course, was a very different
matter. He also stated that they had unrestricted trade
with all the world, but this could not be established by
the fact, as from the earliest date it was the policy of
France, of England, and of every other country, to re-
strict the colonies exclusively to their own use and
benefit. They were looked upon as a species of Crown
land. It was further stated that they had an unlimited
power of making war. Undoubtedly they made war
upon the natives; but beyond that they had no wars of
their own, and that was the only species of war they
were likely to make. There were only three or four pro-
visions of the Bill to which he thought it right to offer
eny objection. The first was, as to the change in the
constitution of the provincial couacils. He believed that
a great portion of the public business would devolve on
these councils; but it was quite necessary also that
there :should be general councils to meet special cases,
and to meet occasionally. He had urged the came objec-
tion with regard to the Act relating to the Australian co-
lonies. It was, at the same time, satisfactory to find that
the Government had given a general over ridinganthority
to the general legislature. He thought, also, that great
inconvenience would arise from that provision of the
Bill which deprived the Crown of a veto upon the acts
of the colonial legislature. He had always thought that
the Crown ought to have this supreme authority; and
it would he impossible beforehand to define what ccts
they should he allowed to pass without any control, and
what acts the Imperial Legislature might place its veto
on. Teat would give rise to conflicts of authority and
jurisdiction; and they were all aware that such really
occurred in the United States. Without such a provi-
sion as he had referred to, ho feared that very serious
inconvenience and embarrassment would result. On the
other hand, he could not see how any practical inconve-
nience would result from granting this power to the
Crown. It was said that two years would be an unne-
cessarily long time for disallowing colonial acts; but
that, it appeared to him, would be an advantage. In the
course of that period, experience had shown that amend-
ments were often made in Acts hastily passed before
they were submitted for her Majesty's assent. He
thought the making superintendents elective was a
mistake, these offices being analogous to that of
sheriffs in England, and therefore in some respects
under the control of the Governor of the colony.
They all knew that the foundation of the power of the
Governor depended upon his privilege of suspending any
act or appointment until it had received the sanction of
the Crown. He came next to the constitution of the
general legislature. By far the most defective part of
our North American colonial legislatures was the elec-
tive councils.—(Llear.) At one time Legislative Coun-
cils were renewable at the pleasure of the Crown, but
the act of 1791 made them elected for life. It was ab-
surd to call such councils a copy or imitation of our
House of Lords; there was no similarity between the
two legislatures. It was, however, at first intended by
the act of 1791 to make those councils resemble the
House of Lords by creating hereditary honours. It
was not intended that they should be a small oligarchy,
dependent on the will of the Crown; but circumstances
at the time were too strong for Mr. Pitt, and no heredi-
tary honours had been created. The Legislative Coun-
cils thud become a mere body of nominees. In fact,
Legislative Councils were universally regarded in
Ceuta, as the great obstacle to good Government; and
nothing so much tended to bring about that unhappy
state of things which led to insurrection in Canada than
these councils. The question then was, how had Legisla-
tive Councils worked? He was bound to say, according
to his experience, they had not worked satisfactorily in
North America. The reason why they had not worked
satisfactorily was, because on many occasions those
Councils had not had sufficient weight with the public,
or as they ought to have possessed, in order to render
them properly useful; and the consequence of that had
been the necessity of making large additions to them, so
that, to use the Noble Duke's expression, they had more
than once been swamped. The present Bill, in its ori-
ginal shape, would have worked injuriously in this par-
ticular respect; for if a mistake had been made at the
onset in the nomination, it would have been competent
for a few individuals to have obstructed or defeated any
beneficial or useful measure which the colonists and the
Crown might have approved of and desired to pass into
law. It would have then been necessary to have come
astgaationotf thoPiganrlis wamaesntb,yagndiving
the only way to meet such a
to
on
Crowndtihtieatothose
bodies as large discre-
tionary powers to make such additions
might be considered requisite. He begged the
Noble Earl, on account of tne importance of the sub-
ject, to do him the favour to pey a little attention to his
statements.
The Earl of DERBY—I do assure the Noble Earl I
am sorry to say I have heard every word he has ad-
dressed to the House during the last hour and three
quarters.—(Laughter.)
Earl GREY—Then the Noble Earl has the enviable
quality of listening to a discourse and of carrying on an
interesting conversation at the same time, without losing
a word of either conversation or discourse.—(Laughter.)
The NOBLE EARL resumed—lt was inconvenient to
withdraw respectable men from the assembly in order
that they might enter the Legislative Council. He
considered it was better they should sit stugly than be
mixed, as that would not add to their weight and
authority. He would advert to another important
point—the appropriation of the land fund. He would
not repeat the opinion he had More than once ex-
pressed, that it was the duty of Parliament to lay
down some rule as to the disposal of waste lands
in some of lour more important colonies. But no
such rule had been laid down in Canada, Nova
Scotia, and, latterly, in the West India colonies. The
subject had been entirely legislated upon by the colonial
legislatures—the colonial legislatures bad passed Acts,
and had taken the whole matter upon themselves. In
the New Zealand Bill there appeared to be powers
which permitted the local legislatures to legislate on the
matter. He feared the system under the Bill would
lead to jobbing and abuse. It appeared to him that the
power would be better if given to individual provinces
than to the general legislature, because one settlement
might desire to make regulations and prices which an-
other settlement might object to. By delegating the
lapplicationeogf
etnheee
aml o ney
legislatured eri ved
ifnr
sotme a tdh
of
fs atloe
tohf waste
local
councils, he feared that much abuse would arise. He
entirely concurred in the concluding observations of
his Noble Friend behind him when he said, that
this was a most important crisis in the affairs of our
colonial empire, and that much would depend upon
the course of legislation now pursued. Ile adopted
phrase of his Noble Friend, that many of our
colonies were " growing up to manhood," and
that it was now necessary to carry out that
scheme of policy which would have been proper even
in an earlier stage of their social progress. But
this policy ought to be carried out, not by separating
from the old and established system hitherto pursued by
this country—none of the constitutional powers hitherto
possessed by the Crown ought to be abandoned—but the
Government ought carefully to exercise the existing
powers. It was with some degree of pride that he found
the North American colonies in their present position of
prosperity. In 1846 they were in a different condition,
and they had to surmount difficulties of no ordinary na-
ture before they attained their present state. Until 1846
not one of these colonies enjoyed the system of govern-
ment now established, and at present working successfully
and harmoniously. In Canada we had seen the two
races of men divided, and with no general agreement
as to the form of government under which they were to
live, and that great and distinguished man expressed his
greatest doubt as to whether the system would work in
that colony. But in Nova Scotia, Now Brunswick, and
Prince Edward's Island, the systems of local govern-
ment had been carried into complete and satisfactory
operation. In Canada we bad now the aspect of a united
people, French and English acting harmoniously
together, and regarding the mother country with affec-
tion end esteem. So healthy was the feeling, that tho
cry of annexation and the pressure of political discontent
previously apparent had entirely disappeared, and the
colony was making greater progress in population and
wealth than any of the neighbouring states; and Mr.
Tremenhere, in an interesting book recently published,
took precisely this view of the subject. The Crown
possessed all the legal power necessary for dealing with
the colonies, and, as far as their welfare was concerned,
it was only necessary that it should be exercised with
judgment and discretion.
Lord LYTTELTON thought it desirable to separate
the Canterbury Association from the Canterbury Co-
lony.—(Hear, hear.) The Canterbury Association
might have been involved in some difficulty, but as
far as the colony was concerned he was prepared to
contend, that in the same space of time no other settle-
I went had attained so great a degree of prosperity.

WEL)NES Y

After a felw words in explanation from the Duke of
NEWCASTLE,
The Bill was read a second time.
The County Rates Bill was read a second time.

The Sunk Island Roads Bill, the Commons Enclosures
Act Extension Bill, the Appointment of Overseers Bill,
and the Hereditary Casual Revenues in the Colonies Bill,
were severally passed through Committee.
Th© Poor-law Comtniesion
Continuance (Ireland)
Bill was read a third time and passed.
Their Lordships then adjourned.