The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-05 00:00:00

J UNE 5, 1852

wording of this Bill, I must say that these Governments
partake so much of the nature of municipaeties, that I
do not think I shell be open to a charge of departing
from the spirit of our constitution if I meet the teethes
of those who desire an elective eatmutiee.—(Hear, hear.)
Following, up the same principle, I intend to strike out
the salaries of 500/ and leave it to the option of those
districts to say whether they will give their superin-
tendents salaries or not. Sir, I hold there to be impor-
tant alterations in the Bill now before the House. The
next point is one that will lead to more discussion than
I expected—l mean the clause which I introduced in
refereece to the rights of the New Z eband Company,
and which clause heel been adverted to by the Riget
Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J.
Graham), as also by the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for the University of Oxford. In that case
I conceive I have ttken ground which the House cannot
except to, and which I feel I would not be justified
in departing from. The only ground which I have
taken, and less than which I will not bring myself to
accept, is that whatever may be the equitable claims of
the New Zealand Company in 1847—whatever these
c'aims may be, lam bound to see secured to them by
this measure.--(Hear, hear.) I think it is a paramount
duty with me to take care that when introducing a Bill
the effect of it shall not be to leave the company in a
worse condition than they previously stood in.—(blear,
hear.) I think the House will admit that, looking at the
Act of 1847, I have no right to consider wsiettier the
bargain between the Crown and the Now Zealand Com-
pany wss a good or bad bargain.—(Elear, hear.) The
Act of Parliament has settled that; and the Act itself
has been fully explained by the subsequent correspon-
dence. I, therefore, take the spirit of the contrect as it
stands. The Act of 1847 prescribes that in every town
where land shall be sold the purchase money shall be di-
vided into three portions—one portion set apart for emi-
gration purposes, the second port for purposes of sur-
veying, and the third part, or balance, handed over to
the New Zealand Company.—(hear.) The Noble Lord
(Earl Grey) late at the bead of the Colonial Department,
considered that a fourth was a lair enough portion to be
handed ovsr to the New Zeeland Company. But I shall
not be tempted to enter into an investigation as to whe-
ther the Noble Earl was justified in so thinking. I be-
lieve the Noble Earl took a most convenient, a most
just, and a most moderate course; and looking to the
whole transaction—the Act of 1847 and the construction
of the several clauses—l ask the House, with some con-
fidence, if I could do less than decide on the giving of a
fourth of the proceeds of the sales of land to the New
Zealand Company?—(Hear, hear.) Ido not wish to do
more than juttice, and therefore I appeal to the House
if more than justice is here conceded?—(Hear, hear.)
There is only one more topic to which I shall allude.
Every petition which I had the honour to present this
evening adverted in terms of gratitude and approbation to
that part of the Bill which places the lands of the colony
at the disposal of the Legislsture.—(fiear, hear.) On that
subject I hope I may be allowed to say one word more. In
the present day it is impossible to say iu what part of the
colony of New Zealand discoveries of geld may take
place. They are expected to take place in New Zsa-
land. Therefore, in addition to placing the land at the
disposal of the Legislature, in the event of any great
mineral discovery, it is intended by her Majesty's Go-
vernment to entrust the whole power and management
to the local legislatures.—(Heer, hear.) I hope I shall
not be considered as having gone beyond my duty ashen
I state that by the mail, which left yesterday, I an-
nounced to the colonists that it was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to place at the disposal of the
Legislature of Australia, all the revenues that may be
derived from these discoveries.—(Hear, hear.) Having,
Sir, made theta explanations in the hope of saving time,
and having been met in a spirit of kindness, I hope the
House will consider the desire of these colonists to pos-
sess these legishttive privileges, and that it will merge
all w'nor differences in carrying out the provisions of
the Bill now before us.—(Cheers.)
Mr. AGLIONBy considered that the amendments in-
tended to be introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
J. Pakington) were very great improvements, and as
such he hoped the House would accept them. It would
be ads ittcthy wrong to place them in a better position
than they held before, when their claims came b. fore
the consideration of that House. It would be monstrous
to do leas—they must do no less in justice, and he had
no objection to any tribunal, either legal or judicial,
which should investigate equitably the legal rights of the
company. He was compelled to say that taere were some
remarks which had been made on the second reading of
the Bill, which, in his opinion, ought not to have been
made. He contended that allegations and statements
had been made against the company which were un-
founded. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark
had stated that the principal cause of the failure of the
company was owing to the great mismanagement of its
ratirs. He said they had chiefly hailed in consequence
of great mismanagement.
Sir W. MOLI4:SWORTII.—No doubt of it.
Mr. AGLIONBY begged leave totally to deny that;
and of all others the Hon. Baronet ought not to be the
man to make such a charge, because considering the po-
sition ho had held in connexion with the company its
oeponeets ought to have selected some other Member.
He was one of the earliest in the undertaking, and his
name, doubtless, had some influence with the public.
Pie hid been elected a director in 1839, and continued
an active member till the 14th February, 1843; and
those were the times when the company fell into great
difficulties. He believed the first part of the Lion. Mem-
ber's allegations referred to circumstances over which
the company had no control. and more from the opposi-
tion they experienced in Parliament. He, as being one
of the directors, therefore, had no right to accuse them
of mismanagement, although in 1843 he had left them to
struggle teeth their difficulties. The late lamented Mr.
Somes, the Member for Dartmouth, continued at the
head of the affairs of the company till his death, and
many others of the distinguished gentlemen who had
taken an active part in the direction still adhered to
it. In 1847 Parliament introduced some alterations,
but he was not aware that between the two periods he
had named there had been any mismanagement. In
proof of that he would refer to a letter of Lord Grey,
dated July, 1850, three years afterwards, in which his
Lordship stated that he hadena unchanged sense of the
importeocs of the colouitieg adventures or the com-
pany, and the great value of their results, and that no-
thing had occurred in any degree to affect the satis-
faction he had felt at the progress they had made. Now
that was the opinion of the Colonial Secretary who
must have considered the question fully, and investi-
gated the conduct of the cumpany. The Right Hon.
Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford had
made some remarks upon the name subject, and had
mixed up the New Zealand with some other com-
panies of which he had apparently a great
horror. At least the Right Hon. Gentleman objected.
be believed, to merely colonising companies. He com-
plained of the secrecy of the Yew Zealand Company,
that they were an irresponsible boat', and that teeir
affairs were conducted with secrecy. Why the very con-
trary was the fact; the safety of the New Zealand Com-
pany had been publicity and discussion. The Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon, with that clear
good sense that characterised him, had hicid
hit the
and
dighhat
nail upon the head in the remarks he had
on behalf of the company would again repeat that all
they demanded was justice.
Sir J. PAIUNGTON implored the House to reserve
the discussion until the Bill was in Committee.—(Hear.)
Sir W. MOLES WORTH would be happy to agree
with the seggestiou of the Right Hon. Baronet, but be
had been attacked. He would he prepared in his place
to prove his position—that the New Zealand Company
had obtained their Act in 1847 by misrepresentation,
and by a concealment of the truth. He would either go
on now, or when the House went into Committee.
Mr. MANGLES said, whenever the Hon. Baronet
brought forward his charges, he should be fully pre-
pared, on the part of the company, to meet them.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill,
Clause 1 was then agreed to.
On clause 2 being read..
Sir W. MOLES WORTH moved the omission of the
second clause and all subsequent ones before the 32d
clause, and in their stead to insert:—"lt shall be 'swell
for the General Assembly by Act or Acts to incorporate
the inhabitants of any district within the said colony,
and to establish in such a district a council for the local
government thereof: such council shall have power to
make orders and bye-laws for providing for any matters
which shall be specially subjected to the direction and
control of the said council by any law of the said General
Assembly." If a majority of the House was desirous of
passing a Bill far the better government of New Zsaland,
he hoped the minority would. not offer anything like a
factious opposition. There wore in the debate on the
second reading .evident indications of a difference of opi-
nion as to the constitution that ought to be granted to
the colony—whether Now Zealand should be formed
into one political district or divided into six political
units or provinces, each having a separate and inde-
pendent Legislature, to be combined under one central
head, like the United States of Americo. That system
had been found perfect in theory, and had already
lasted seventy years in America, Working, on the whole,
extremely well. If,, instead of provinces having a
population of from 1,500 to 8.000, they had in New Zra-
land provinces with from 160,000 to 1,000,000 inhabi-
tants, and if it was intended thati they were to become
independent of the mother country, then it would in all
probability be. the best constitution. He, however, ob-
jected to such a plan for these reasons—first, because it
appeared to him that New Zealand had been formed by
nature to consist of one political unit. lie objected to it
also because the colony being from its nature distinct
from all other parts of the world, had therefore no natural
enemies unless they were formed within its own bosom
by having the colony cut up into various distinct and se-
parate provinces and states. He objected to it further,o
because it established six different legislatures, and two
distinct sets of laws. He thought he mightassume
nf
fromhat
the tenor of the discussion that the majority
manyother House of
tilicoaulsuenwioans;int favourhat was oft h
eNoe
opinion
nZi
oena bolnf -
distinguished Members of this and
thethe
majority of the
Parliament. He' would assume( that
anygouforrmalesdo
into Committee
one
political
07iat
isu
unit favour
.or of Z: sbaulatndinbefi
sacrament. Then
subordinate districts withb
whom should it ee divided
of its being formed mtolonodailssteitlife.tgi.pverovinces, having
arose. _
d? By the General Assembly of
intothe eiclistifeesite!tta'nor provinces? By whom should the bone-
daries .be determine
by the •
said that the inhabitants of New
New South Wales rather than mperiat e ara-
It was L South
meet.
\Vales objected to such a division; but the argument
told in his favour rather than against it. It was opposed
by them only because that the districts Councils were
proposed by the Imperial Parliament, instead of by
themselves. Another reason why it should be left to
the General Assembly ot.New South Wales was, that it
was a matter of hardly any importance to the mother
country what Ives the *.e- el es Whitt Was the, of the
districts, wade to the settlers it was of the:greatest im-
portance what were the limits of the districts, and what
the powers of the district councils. It was one of the

soundest principles of colonial government, that in local
setters they should meddle as little as possible with the n'
settlers and iehebizents. Th.- petitions from welliegton
Were all in favour of the Wan he •recommended, although
the Canterbury settlement was desirous that it should be
kept separate front the rest. He was prepared to abide
by the opinions of the colonists themselves upon this
point, and believing that his plan was best calculated to
promote the prosperity, as it would meet. the wishes of -
the colonists, he would take the liberty of dividing the
Committee upon his amendment.
Mr. Al WERLEY said that there wore quite as many
precedents in history of local governments or provinces
united under one head, as the pten suggested by the Hon.
Baronet. He reminded the Hon. Gentleman that Eng'
land, which wes about the size of New Zsaland, was at
one time ciividsd into seven different states under the
Heptarchy, and in the United Sates the same principle
prevailed. There were many preceder4s of a provincial •
government united under one head. Tan proposition of
the Hon. Gentleman differed only in degree from the ~
one before the Committee. Both agreed in proposing
that the local functions should be discharged by boat
bodies, whether municipal or not ; mid that the centre,'
Government should attend to such matters as pertained'
to the gtnetal government of the whole ot the two'
islands. When the Honourable Beronet referred
to the wishes of the colonists themselves, he .
agreed with him that that was the right anneal, nl°l.
melte, hut when he said that the col mists took net
view of the qnestion, he must beg to say that he
thought the lion. Baronet had read the doomMehl.;ta
wrongly. In all cases they had expressed a wish forma''
nicipal institutions in each locality; but when he needo
the word municipal, he did not use it in the conbedt:
strict sense in which it was wed in that country, but
the larger sense in which it was applied in the earlier,—
provinces of North America end the government:e'
Rhode Island. The Hon. Gentleman than defended the
principle of the Canterbury Association, denying eroPhr
tically that it was founded upon' ny exclusive combin";
tion. They were churchmen, and anxious to carry oat.
the principles of their church, but there were Presbyte't
ran setilements near them, which might, in the same
same sense, be considered equally exclusive. They were
of opinion that unanimity and combination of views we"
necessary to success, and that was the principle on wide°,
they acted. Anybody might purchase land in the set"
Cement, and it was not necessary that he should he
,„5
churchman. He was ready, with the Hon. Baronet, w''
appeal to the colonists themselves, as advocating the
views embodied in the Bill, rather than those which a°
had first put forward.
Lord J. RUSSELL would be very desirous to see'
Bill pass during the present session, which would give
representative institutions to New Zeeland. Althonge ,
there were several points in the Bill with regard O
which he Might entertain a different opinion to the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary, yet in marl of
the points and objects in view there was a great °onset
o„;
mace of opinion, both on his own part, and he believed
he might say on the part of the House. Therefore he
wished to interfere as little as possible with the Pregreest
of the Bill through the House. His opinion was tme,
there should be one general representaive legislature,
and likewise local bodies with more or less of powertu eee
partaking more of the municipal than of the supremo'
legislative legislative character. It appeared to him that the P"'
of the Right Hon. Baronet war, one which differed 0 •
little from that proposed by the Bill, that it was netenfte'
upon vvaich the House ought to be divided, and the ~,,
Gentleman having stated his views, he thought the Gr:,
venal:Lent ought to be allowed to carry out their roessit
The application of the elective principle, nowprOPOr:,
by the Right Hon. Gentleman, makes the measure 007,
municipal and more conformable- to what he oeiginelit .
explained as his intention.—(Hear, hear.) I tatil_ttol"'- „-
deeirable—tor there is no reatna to up prebend any ttt
flew, of juritdietion, which is the only practical evil taro:.
could arise. And there is even in the municipalities':.,
this country a power in the Secretary of State to &s
solve bye-laws made by any corporation; in the same , ,
way as there will be a power over the legislation
those local bodies in the central legislature.—(Hear')
Therefore, upon the whete, I should say that there
nothiug in my views ieconsistent with the general gee
of the Bill. Perhaps I may here he allowed, however'..
to mention one point on which it appears to me tb,ers.,i
may hereafter arise diffic Jou uities, it the Right ",,,f
Gentleman do not make an inconsiderable alterailr.,;:.•
I will not dispute as to whether the .
council should be by nomination or election. 1:1;
caurse, as I concurred in what • was propose',
by my Noble Friend the late Secretary of the Coloniel.!
I should prefer the elective system. But this is a Pelt
on which I would not vote against the Governwe
There is a proposal in the Bill that there shall be ai,.
li-
mitation of the number of members of councils to te."
Now, as they are to be appointed for life, I think thael,:e,
is eonsiderehle danger of their erecting themselves.l
y
a separate body and thwarting the representative Vuy
or the governor.—(Hear.) I think that if you haletos
body appointed for life, the governor should have ',Z..
power ot making them from time to time set in
eordancolonists,cewill have a
aigs
setting up their private views against those of the colony„„ois
youral views of the gliottvleernor or the
'
witho thetrhweisgecne
at large; and those of the governor.--(Hear, hear.) tieuz„
may easily be amended by allowing the Crown t° t
versa'
tend tho number beyond 15. The limitation to the'
number is an unnecessary restriction on the go
sproovriern.
while if the alteration be made he will have the,
of confining the number to 15, except in particular
cumstances.
to be wile'
ther the chief stress should be laid on the
Mr. E. DENISON said the point seemed
general legislature, or whether the power should
cal lee
fused through several subordinate bodies—the lo oh
• the speec
h
of He had heard with satisfaction co..
for the
00.
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
Right
But he differed with the
acknowledged the
Gentlemen on this point, although he ackric_(fiear.)
alterations he proposed were improvements. in :avow' Of
The preponderance of argument appeared._
with as mob
the central legislature, and of encircliegoitu,uce
infiaett.
fortneidtiobnoodfitia..
as possible of power and dignity, sc! ,l
itti atlo partiesnontr o
control
to hoe
localcom e
ui ic membersti°
no
ef.
it,
luannaQfttehrutsheen:nebeeellihin:
e iut
proposed— f,
be
ya r
the
toof obstruct t tNulebt Noble
eh
oßridl , andit would odesirous
i inexpedient pa el id
ien t partiesto press the
p
the
fluence
the c'-ntral legislature would have power to ID
Rndigihft thHeeeriff. eGeteoaftietrcheanalwteoruatidionbes
tb;
local legislatures, the matter in dispute 'would be Lane'
narrowed.—(Hear.)
Mr. MO WATT said he was satisfied the measure had
hall Bat
he hr
oo sincere
re insayingn:aesruedesir e to benefit s
thei
o
he believed it impossible for the British Parliament t 0
legislate properly for the colonies. The colonists
butno t
tdbe:ti desire
powers
e r
o, complicatedsel
f .measuretb_n
to
should
Imperialbouid b n legislation'givnn
them'
and then that they should be simply let alone. He was
in favour of the central legislation being matte supreme,
but he did not think the matter of such great importance,
as ho was satisfied the colonists would ultimately obtata
good government. The only parties who appeared to
understand the colonists' wants, were the writers
the press. For instance, there had been published
reeeetly an article in the Times white), if submitted to
the vote is all the colonies, would have been carried by
acclamation. .
Sir J. PAKINGTON was persuaded that the. -
colonists would deprecate being left in their protect
d
position.—(Rear, hear.) The Bill had been introdueet
only for their benefit; and it was because he believed
their opinion to be against the proposition of the 111;
Baronet (Sir W. Molesworth), he must decline to tweeds
to it.
'
Mr. MOWATT quite agreed that legislation Was
necessary.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH withdrew his amen.a °ate
as he felt that he was in a minority.
Thu clause was then agreed to, as were the 15 clang°
following, up to clause 17 inclusive.
Oa clause 18. which provides tmplitaustkinothe superinteedel3l
ausdirpriArov.inmcioalLltegsissvlsotußreTsameaoya3
to be vested in the proviuciel 'legislatures were —Anal' ,
fined, and moved an amendment in the clause, by weave
they would be.' If the Bill passed in its present e,,rt
the local councils would become so many petty reP'
edlawthsn't the Lowdeer!
lies, instead of municipalities. •
Mr. GLADSTONE considered that in this clituse.tl
principle adoted in our old municipal institutions
911:0,
been fairly followed; for it gave general, and net 10..
cific, powers, but reserved a vote to the central gov.e,,,d
went. Moreover, the present Bill gave an overri.aet,
jurisdiction to the central legislature of the coril_o",is
The intelligent will of the colonial community , ,tutba
ultimately determine the form of government, and
local principle was in favour it must prevail; but eno
the Bill the central legislature would at present_ low
the power of applying a 'Check to the powers of the
council. le oe etc . ,
Sir J. PAKINGTON thought the sound princiP
wedlat
ahtei c
ihn ttoh
ap rioactee
re s wt as
of
,thtoeiarlloswevetrhael llooccaallitbieosdiesto leg ii
reserving,
as was done in our municipal forms of governineltidth
veto with respect to measures of general importance; ,
OR this principle the clause had been framed.
toss !.0,, ,
Mr. AGLIONBY supported the clause, believing The,l;f,
it was impossible to lay down precise rules for
guidance of these provincial councils.
AP'
After a few words from Mr. MOWATT and gr. .0
DEitLEY, the amendment. was withdrawn, and the clad
was agreed to.
he
On clause 19, which enumerates certain powers of i
n
legislative council to appropriate the land fund g
from the sale of land,
worth',
Mr. F. PEEL moved the omission of certain - w
for the purpose of transferring to the local councils tbot
appropriation of the fund arising from the SedO land within the limits of their respective Previnctne
and in the same manner to give them
control of the sale end letting of the Waste
legislators
lands. He considered that whilst the general
_ou
was fully competent to deal with the customs and reer,..._
and other matters affecting the entire comotuwitr:,
it was not do well able to deal with the land fund,
the precise amount of which the various localitieslikento"
necessarily he better acqusinted. sheeldfeaelBLipg
see an authority established in the .colony
let, for
at
pre.
uniform price at which lands were to be f
had already tbe
being made. Canterbury and Tatra
purchase
of land
right of determining sent the celenisf.s complained of arbitrary alterations
could
privileges from the
n with'
of *uriseht3.-
hinoltdhions: the provinces,
so
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that the subject j
osee
ontobjeursitoicneatii
andthe terms
lion with regard to the
undergone much consideration, an
1 d board tan
power to one centralan
better to cenfide the sale of ladndit ibnadthbeeceonlo;yaunglq
to distribute it over the different localities.
Mr. AGLIONBY agreed with the Roght Hon. Baronet,ot,o
übstaitfowramsitt;
of joetel tetutaatidrentionsyllue
iwuo:uhrt
A.itilativvnti,,e,e_vaTatoe
colonies. a
, D which
After few words from Mr. S. CHIT.,
not reach the gallery,

Ir. ADDERLEY observed that he did not think
ituj fortuity of price attainable, or, if attainable, desirable.
_ I dr. E. DENISON rejoieed that the power had been
00.et:ferred on the general and not on the local legisla-
The General Council would be much more
Vl7 to nettle that price which was for the benefit of
dent at large; and he trusted that the prece-
%tint here set would be followed in dealing with our
°wor colonies.
el*. F. SCOTT did not think that this Bill would
em9coed in setting what was the proper and sufficient
ewe of land iu New Zealand, and suggested the peat-
141.1asent of the clause.
Sur J. PAKINGTON could not accede to the propoai-
TIO for postponement. With reference to the question
!!„1 the Post-office raised by the Hon. Gentleman. the
u2liatnittee would see that the regulation of the Post
was iu all countries a inatter of Imperial concern
lt was here, and he could see no reason for any de.
Parture from that universal practice in this case.
eiktr• P. SCOTT said he would move ,that the words
"Post-office" be struck out.
And 4fter some discussion, in which
Mr.
did F. PEEL said that he lasd only suggested, and
not mean to move his proposition relative to the dis-
posal of the public lands.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
In reply to an observation from Mr. V. SMITE', as to
!111 difference being likely to arise in the legislation
'estiectiug Europeans and natives,
Sri PAKINGTON plaid that the whole spirit of
the:.
Bill was to place the natives on the same footing as
l'uo European inhabitants, and he should be very sorry
thatte7 anything in the Biil should lead to a difference in
+7° legislation applicable to the natives as distinct from
re Europe:me Perhaps, then, the Committee would
'eLthe matter stand over for his further consideration.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 20 and 21 were agreed to without discussion.
On clause 22,
Mr. Ps PEEL suggested that one-half the members
of the council was too much to be requisite to form a
Quorum.
Sir J. PAKINGTON consented to reduce the amount
to one-third, and
Tlao clause as thus amended was agreed to.
Clauses 23, 24, 25, 25, 27, and 28 were agreed to with-
Oat discussion.
On clause 29, relating to the period of time divine.
Which the Governor might disallow a Bill passed by the
Legislative Council,
Sir W. MOLES WORTH thought two years, the period
named in the clause, was too long. He would suggest
two or three mouths.
After a short conversation, in which the general opi-
nion of the Committee appeared to be in favour of a
ranch shorter period than two years,
seSir J. PAKINGTON consented to reduce the period
three months.
The clause as thus amended was agreed to.
Clauses 30, 31, and 32 were agreed to without discus-

• re9n Clause 33, limiting the number of the Legislative
Sir I, PAKINGTON said that in deference to whet
•ia been stated in the early part of the evening by
the lee is
-Quin Lord (Lord J. Russell) he meant to strike
Chue words limiting the number of the Legislative
of S W. MOLESWORTH said that the great object
elea-, second chamber was to obtain the conservative
eleeteut
and create a proper balance in the powers of the
it--,▪
,te; But neither of these obj•cts could be attained by
Orely introducing nominees of the Crown in the Legis-
eJre Council. For the nominee usually lost all influ-
c° with the people after his appointee -at, being re-
Larded only as the tool of the Government. He would
eteeto, therefore, that insteed of the nominee system,
Ze.l" was most unpopular both in Australia and Nov
4,-7,411d. they should adopt a system somewhat like that
deg Iraited States, where the Lower House repre-
sent7e the Pt-tpulation, while the Upper House repree
tho„ slitle district, province, or state; and he further
NI-got that the members should be appointed for eight
nitfeth with e provision that one-half should go out of
ht eiorY four years.
this L'4IOWATT V 163 of opinion that if they retaitrd
bein-4suse-_:
if they determined upon the Upper House
liowt hotninated by the repreeentattve of the Crown,
WouildverL_Perfect the Bill might be in (otter respects, it
heti jeu,! Utterly valueless for the objects which they
end(ll"'
and b CARTER looked upon this clause as an abortive
"gling attempt to make an imitation of the
ltfe Ele of Lords. He hoped that the Hon. Baronet the
tioetilltbe! for Southwark would persevere in his opposi-
tiro in
tkapeeetajbnFiiio:7Eß said he would much prefer the re-
the Government itself than. of its nomi-
create 4-1.0 thought that the clause, if carried, would
Sir atltell mischief and disturbance in the colony.
ottip it: 1-,AIiINGTON said he had heard with some
attebr,,-,;; 'lon- Members say that this clause involved
important principle that if pressed the whole
tio" °:1"1 be valueless. He thought they were attaching
Wag 3' texpeggerated value to the clause. Hie answer
Wag, 'lid not believe that such was the opinion enter-
Coth, • 'II anY colony under the protection of the Eoglieh
~.etaution. When the Hon. Member for Tavlstock
d• . this an
abortive and bungling attempt to make
tiontation of the House of Lords, the only construe-
ttleht (Sir J. Pekington) could put upon such a state-
-4001%3, that the Hun. Member had never taken the
°f inquiring into the present constitution of
4,,„0 °Be colonies where free institutions existed.
au. :raw, Members opposite were pressing upon him
tvithiPc,rinaent which had hitherto never been tried
hityinti he British dominions. He had no hesitation in
ohm g that nothing could induce him to consent to the
°Pinit,,Pr°Pcsod.—(Elear, hear.) He had the strongest
Posed— 11Pun it. it was observed that the plan pro-
ton) di
wered in the United States. He (Sir J. Paking-
with e,,,,,n0t say that it did not; but this ho set.d , that
posed to -Y respect to the United States, he was not dis-
aleae g° there for precedents upon !his subject.—
oottntr'v elt) He referred to the iostitutems of his own
The la 11'4'1 he would there look for his precedents.
et:talent tt• Baronet opposite had brought forward no ar-
on-,'°r ell elective Upper Chamber which in his
ex -7 would not equally apply to an elective Crown or
ecutive
colotn, - Government. He thought that every British
"gilt to be a reflection of the institutions of the
sen°h—r country, so far as it was possible to make them
eb • They bad no precedent for au elective Upper
is amber. The Crown nominates the Upper Chamber
do Country, Country, and in every colony where free institu-
co-s exist the same principle was carried out. They
lite not, ho confessed, make the anology close and
1,-ral, but this was certain, that in their colonies gene-
ixll"3' they gave the Crown the nomination of the
e,exubers of the Upper Chamber, and this was the
l'ocest analogy they could have to the UppEr Chamber
:hi' the mother country, the only difference being that
40 dignities conferred on the colonies were not heredi-
tip% as they were in this country. In North America
u ere were no leas than five representative constitu-
, ons. The Hon. Member for Tavisteck appeared to
forget this fact. They were the constitutions of Canada,
5f New, Brunswick, of Nova Scotia, of Prince Edward's
44and,and of Newfoundland. If they go to the East,
they
would find that, with the exception of theconvic;
eolcnies and British Guiana, which has a peculiar con-
atitution which had been given by the lldteh, in every
et)l2"3',having two chambers the upper one was nomi-
114te:d ,h 3, the Crowe. They had precedents before them
Zie,(l°" constitutions being in existence for hundreds Of
"—hrth There was no doubt a case which perhaps might.
GeZdrgQ as an exception—he meant that of the Cape of
11°Pn•—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) But
that LO exception; for it was a constitution which
only been sent out there the other day, and was not
Ye;tticel),Pleted. He would
.not be a party to the adoption
eouree but that which goes to assimilate the in-
.stlituttoris in the colonies to those in the mother country.
ftt3 disagreed with Hon: Members opposite as to the
reoretical advantages which they argue would result
vrt:one the adoption of the principle which they advocate.
eo I yoked upon the upper chamber, constituted as he
Fr posed, as a most wholesome check upon the more
Grown,
as
branch of the Legislature—standing between the
I.lrwh, as represented by the Governor, and the people.
t.) thought they would find a much better check in an
tildependeut body of men thus nominated, than in a
lo7dY of men who derived their existence from those who
Legislature.—(Hear,
their representatives in the lower branch of the
440gialature.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. PEEL thought it was very natural that they
knew by experience the advantages of their institu-
ti
a
otaa so nicely balanced and so justly proportioned
t ,
▪ 4ould'd sire that their descendants, not only there, but
tottictlabet colonies, should
ohtould participate in this boon. They
u give not only the form, but the sub.
'Apace' ohfowthee
evßritish Constitution. The great practical
advantage of an upper
.chamber was to afford ample time
reeetho consideration of important measures, and to pre-
tittt.ehasty legislation. Another great advantage de-
itgui. from it was to prevent the Crown or its repro-
to",!4hve from coming into collision with what appeared
Lb AA the will of the people. If they wanted to render
sense Powers efficient they must constitute a body pus-
'ed of inherent force and vitality, which would com-
a the ilytnrespect of the country, and enlist besides
to...nee of the people. tehivous_ He could well. understand
of the
exercising a power of this kind with
Itert-encl• because they were a body of distinguished
ethheural
eptoesrsiesessidri,gy
tlahregvealtuerritorial property or ohneb.rve
valuable services rendered either by
regete!ves or their ancestors to the country. what
tht,,,"'"°'' Was there between the House of Lords and
by eropesee
upper chamber? It was to be nominated.
bilittleao vet or, but there was no condition of eligi-
phiahhAJ required. The governor was to select whom be
teet. and such a body so chosen was not likely
the ~7°lnnd the respect of the country. By this Bill
ofic,7lThee of the council once chosen were to hold
the e u•Y a life tenure, Now, though elected at first by
of tigl"ertlor they would become altogether independent
that 0 governor, and would constitute a close oligarchy,
0, most probably would obstruct the business of the
tal_tY instead of advancing it. When the Right Hon.
tb 'not referred to North America, he would remind
eoel°l that there had been recent changes made in the
te:tr•ial constitutions of North America of an impor-
alto .chnracter. An agitation was lately going on
ngtt the people of North America to alter or amend
neueat theY called their system of irrespornsible govein-
ptrnt"-tti gevernment that eas said to be composed of
sen:b(7lB pos:eseed a majority in the House of As.
Am '7, • In Canada, Nova Scotia, and in British Nortti
saiP'ea, this system of irresponsible government was
to to be established. The vacancies in the council
wereihe new fitled up by the governor, upon the advice of
feren"xecutive rho re
t commended persons, not with re-
bena tc' their ability and position in the colony, but
part it was alleeed that they tided with their own
"t •a view'' 11" said, therefore, that the effect of this
plZige in the constitution had b.en still lower to de-
gent the L"Taetcr those commie, and Le a , tea
them of that respect which ought properly to attach
.to
.4emby
-The Right Ron. Baronet said that he must be
Ili°
1:19"4"14 64911d37 establitled, and be

T Pi.

found that wherever they had appointed legislatures
with two ehembere, one of them wes always nominated.
Now they bad an extensive coloniel empire. They had
, not only in the &Ist Indies, but in the provinces of
British North Amerhia, exaMples of a legislature with
two chambers. If, however, they looked to the West
Indies they would find that neither in St. Lucia nor
Trinidad was there a second chamber. In most of these
colonies he admitted that the upper chamber was nomi-
nated; hut he contended that there were peculiar rea-
sons for the councils being so noreOnated, which reasons
could not in any way apply to the esie of New Zealand.
In the West Indies the Coutteilconsdiuted not only the
upper house of legislature, but they were also members
of the Privy Council and the Executive Council
of the , governor. Now, ne one could suppose
that the Executive should be elected. The
council of Jetnaiet was cemeosed of eleven omens,
three of whom were 'ex officio, and the eight other
members held the chief offices in the executive depert-
meet. There were reasons why the council in these
places' should he a nomivative council. But what was
the course taken by the House of Assembly in Canada?
They passed a resolution, declaring that the council did
not possess the confidence of the country, becense it was
nominated, and they prayed that it should be elective.
Then they had the provinces of British North Anierica
and Now Brunswick. In British North America he
could not say that the people so entirely acquiesced in
the tome- of their constitution $l3 the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had represented. Last year, in New 'Brunswick,
the House of Assembly passed a resolutioo, and pre-
seated en address to the Crown, in which they said, that
the Legislative Council- ought to be made an elective
council. He did not know whether their prayer had
been assented to, but he knew that the Governor of
New Brunswick had last year prepared a measure
upon the subject, the consideration of which the
council postponed until the present year. New-
foundlend, too, had last year presented an address in
favour of a responsible government and an elective
council. In Canada there was kept up a constant
state of antagonism between the two chambers. As
an illustration of this state of things, be referred to the
measure on the subject of the clergy reserves. Would
it be believed that in nine consecutive sessions the
House of Assembly had passed a Bill for the seculari-
zation of clergy ressrves. and ten times it was stopped
in the Legislative Council. Such a state of things was
owing to the fact of the Legislative Council being nomi-
nated. If they were not nominated the Bill would have
passed.—(° Hear, hear," from Sir J. Pakington ) These
were reasons which were calculated to make them doubt
whether, the precedents relied upon by the-Right Hon.
Baronet were of such weight, and whether the .present
was not a good opportunity of trying the experiment or
making the Upper Chamber in New Zealand an elective
body.
Mr. WALPOLE said there was one illustration in the
remarks of the Hon. Gentleman, and one observation
which were sufficient to justify the Committee
in adopting the clause. The' 'object of an up-
per chamber was to form a safety valve
against crude and hasty legislation; to prevent the le-
gislature from reflecting too rapidly the premeture opi- ,
nions of the people, while at the same time it raised an
effectual barrier astraicst any pressure of the Crown upon
popular liberty. If that wes the object of a second
Chamber, as he apprehended it to be, then the very de-
fect attributed to the clause under discussion by the
Hon. Gentleman opposite was an additional reason why
the Committee should come to a vote its its favour. In-
dependent of thet, however, the precedents furnished by
his Right Hon Friend efferded, sufficiently ground for
the adoption of the clause. It was perfectly right and
proper that the politic~! institutions of ad parts of her
Mojesty'a dominions should he assimilated, and he (Mr.
Walpole) was astonished to find that censure eves cast
in colonial matters upon those institutions which, as up-
plicahle to this country, were alsveys the subject of so
much praise. but which lion. Gents' then were genera's,
only too willing to abandon as applied to the colonies.
And he would add that if it aus; wished to encourage
the best ciao of emitereets from the mother country to
the colonies, that object could not be better effected
ihan by securing to them all those laws, habits, useges;
end customs which they enjoyed in the home they had
left.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY agreed with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that, to give something analagous to the House
of Lords, would be to give encouragement to-the best
class of emigrants. He did not object to a second body
in colonial legislation; but he asked the Government,
was there no other mode of creating it than that pro-
posed by the clause, which was the blot on the Bill_?
There was no resemblance to the House-of-Lords in the
council proposea' in the clause. The best qualification
would be a large property one, not dependent either
upon the Governor or upon election. The system of
nominees wee, in his opinion, the worst that could be
imagined. The momenta roan became a nominee he be-
came a suspected person in the colonies.
Mr. ADDERLEY thought the nomination of the body
in question for life was the saving clause of the Bill. In
reply to the Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. Adderley)
begeed to say that every principle in the history of
English colonization was in favour of an elective upper
chamber. The colonies of North America had had
such a system, and they were the first colonies in the
world. The statement of the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman that the constitution of the Cape of Good.
Hope, in respect of this feature, was sub judice, made
him (Mr. Adderley) tremble; as the withdrawal of
that feature would convulse the whole colony, seeing
that it was the most popular in the constitution. He
hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman entertained no view of
altering that constitution. If the clause, however, were
to be a sine qua non of the Bill, he (Mr. Adderley)
would not object to it; though he certainly won!'] prefer
an elective upper chamber to one named by the Crown.
Lord J. MANNERS supported the clause. It seemed.
to him that Hon. Gentlemen, in expressing their views
on colonial constitutions, were too apt to look upon them
as perfect productions rather than as 'experiments. The
objection urged against the Upper Chamber in New
Zealand might be also urged against the popular assem-
bly of that colony. The question to be decided, how-
ever, was, would these colonial institutions effect the
same object as the analogous institutions in the mother
country. Teo highest duty of statesmen in these day's
was to provide constitutions for the colonies calculated
to effect the same results as had been obtained by similar
means in this country, and he (Lord J. Manners) be-
lieved that the constitution under discussion would pro-
duce a chamber far more independent than any that had
been suggested by Hon. Gentlemen oppotite. For these
reasons; he hoped the Committee would accede to the
principle of the clause. _ _ _

.
Mr. V. SMITH. was astonished at the change of tone
in ber Majesty's Government. If there was one thing more
certain than another, it was that the elective principle
was the most popular in the colonies. This was what
would make the constitution of the Cape of Good Hope
the model for all future colonial constitutions. He (Mee
V. Smite) was surprised at the horror of the Right Hon.
Baronet at American institutions, when he saw the Bill
contained a power of creating six small republics. All
that was wanted wes a double assembly for the purposes
of deliberation, and if the second was formed on a dif-
ferent principle of quelitication from the first; that was
all that was wanted. In every colony nomination bad
been the main question of dispute,, and he (Mr. V.
Smith) implored the Government, therefore, to re.cou•
cider the question. If they did not do so, it would he
the duty of the Committee to assert at all risks the elec-
tive principle adopted by that House.
Mr. MO NAT I said the consequence of not making
the upper chamber elective was this—that instead of
our colonies being the cutlet for our sons and daugh-
ters, 99 out of every 100 emigrants went to the
United States instead of going to our fine- colonies.
The explanation of this circumstance was this—that
.we had been accustomed to legislate for our
colonies, even to the minutest matter, instead of
leaving our c lonies to mansge their own internal affairs.
Until we altered our system, and gave the colonies
real self-goy:Tun:lent, instead cf talking about it, our
Colonies would never prove a relief to the mother coun-
try. The American system of election had worked well
—no man could deny that; and that was the realm
why he had alluded to America and the American in-
stitutions—a circumstance which had given so much
horror to the Right Hon. Gentleman. He would not
take up the time of the Committee in exposing the ab-
surdity of comparing this House of nominees to our
House of Lords. It resembled the House of Lords only
in matters and qualities which were neither useful nor
suited to the interests of the colonists. He was not
without hope that the Right Ron. Gentleman would lay
aside all idea of his being committed to this Bill; and, as
the Right Hon. Gentlemen had not had much official ex-
perience, he could hardly feel hurt at a proposition to
alter one part of the. measure.
Mr. A.NSTEY wished to know whether it was desired
by theorists in this country, or by the colonists, the es-
tabliehment of a bastard Horse of fords in the colony—
for a real House of Lords was impossible. He asserted
that
the nomination principle tended to exclude landed
proprietors and respectable persons. The landed pro-
prietors were all in the elected House, and were nearly,
all democrats. He was satisfied
that no gentleman of
character would be found to sit in the nomination
House—the colonial House of I radhsd. There would be
nothing but clerks, thatadventurers, and class of per-
sons brought into notice by Mr.
It the people were trusted, they would repay the
Snobs.'
aend the
confi-
dence reposed 'pin them. Distrust the people,
Forst consaquencas would follow. Is was tls distrust
which had produced the rebellion in Canada; it way the
proposition for a nominative council which had nearly
produced rebellion in Australia, end would, he antici-
pated, produce discontent in New Zealand. He contended
that only one House was expedient awl, necessary.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH would move that the clause
be omitted.
Sir J. PAKINGTON denied that.
:he wanted to create
six republics in the colony. The Bill had been discussed
in a very fair sp
(I he hoped the spirit would pre-
vail throughout. the
an
leNoble Lord the Mt mber for Lone
don had adverted to the questionen very decidedly, still
on of a nominated cham-
ber, and though he had riot
he did Ape tit ;n i
.avour of .
pok
the principle; for he eaid,.,
though inclined tit prehsrring
disposed
as elective upper chataber, still.
The Noble Lord had
to
"r"
whhLheerdu' iGiireeoyt feel
to endanger the Bill on that
r 1 He bad listened
pant.
stated that in distinct terais.—(ileans
atieztively to the discussion, but had
heard nothing to
support the statements that the principle of a nominated
On
the
chamber was disapproved of by the colony. .
said that as the Bill wee, so the
conttery, the petitions
which he had laid on the table ell
pantioeers hoped it
would pass. Ile; would remind the Route that not only
Canada and the West Indies were legislattd for on the
&AM princple, but two years ago, when a new constitu-
tion for the Australian colonies was under discussion,
that constittniou was re-constituted on the principle of a
singie chamber, but alao that the principle cf nominatioe
.ve,; to he Neil retie ~.,, om .thtrd ~f that sir,c,rlo eh.rnher
being
would continuenominate d. Hit
aleitil. hitherto hope
that the
haen lld
°s
that t
as
retainedit had the
differences of opinion would not be permitted to interfere
fied94BlY with the memo.