The Sun.
London, England, 1852-12-04 00:00:00

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THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 4, 1852.

The loss upon the malt tax in the year 1853-4 will be
1,000,0001. Then, besides this 1,000,0001., there is
400,0001., there is i 0,0001., and 100,0001., making toge-
ther 2,100,0001. (Hear.) Now for the ways and means,
now for the revenue, the surplus revenue of 1854.
I have k k ywn the house that we might take our surplus
for this year at probably 1,350,0001. Well, I hope I shall
never have to move another vote for the Kafir war—(hear,
hear)—and the Kafir war in our budget of last year was
counted at 460,0001. I think, however, it would be
imprudent to take away the whole of that 460,0001.
(Hear, hear.) Although our last accounts are extremely
favourable, and although as far as our finances are
concerned I am very sanguine on the subject, I think it
will not be at all improbable that we shall have finally to
call for a vote for extras with regard to the Kafir war, and
I would therefore take 200,0001. for that. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME : What about the stamps on marine insur-
ances. (Loud cries of " order.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER : I take,
therefore, the probable surplus for 1853-54 at 1,600,0001,
I take the repayments, if the house accedes to my proposi-
tion, with regard to the public works loan fund, into the
ways and means, at 400,0001.—that would make 2,000,0001.
And now it becomes my duty to propose to the house some
other means to increase our resources ; that is the greatest
difficulty in the world (loud laughter) ; but more particularly
so when I have wearied the house so long and made myself,
I can unaffectedly say, quite exhausted. (Hear, hear.) Now
it is absolutely necessary, if the measures which her Ma-
jesty's Government have proposed are to be carried—andthey
are measures which in my opinion will conduce greatly
to the benefit of this country—that we should put
our finances in a sound position. (Hear, hear.) And I
want to put our finances in that sound position—l want to
put them on principles which I think are just and advan-
tageous to the community, and not to a class. (Hear.) I
beg the house to recollect some of the principal features of
this new system. I beg of them to recollect that, on the
part of the Government, I have considered the claims of
those classes who now, it is universally admitted, have
been injured by recent legislation. (Cries of " No, hear,
hear, and order.") Has not the shipping interest been in-
jured by recent legislation? (No, no, hear, hear, and
order.) 'I beg to remind the house that I have, on the
part of the Government, considered all those claims, I hope
in a kind, but lam sure not in a partial, spirit. I have en-
deavoured, as far as I possibly could, to make a composi-
tion that would terminate those complaints of classes, of
which I for one, I confess, am weary. (Hear, hear, hear.)
I have endeavoured, as far as I possibly could, to encou-
rage in the house a spirit of legislation which by increasing
the general good and studying the interests of the com-
munity, would show every class—whether manufacturing,
commercial, shipping, or agricultural—that in supporting
a legislation that is, as we think, for the advantage of the
community, they are obtaining the stimulus to their opera-
tions which they all naturally desire. (Hear, hear.) I
think that on the part of my friends my propositions have
been met in a kind and generous spirit. (Hear, hear.)
There has been no attempt on their part to parade that
unequal incidence of local taxation which no man can deny
they are subject to—(hear, hear)—there has been a willing,
ness on their.part to admit that such inequalities are neces-
sarily attached to a large, ancient, and complicated system
of finance, and that it is more than probable that in the
measures which her Majesty's Government have brought
Forward, more immediately affecting their interest, they
will find those advantages which otherwise they might
churlishly have sought in the relief from peculiar burdens
to which they are subjected. (Hear.) I think the mode in
which those representing particularly the agricultural in-
terests -have received this proposition is one which shows
they are superior to all petty considerations, and are anxious
to merge them in a strong national feeling. (Hear, hear.)
I feel it my duty to propose some addition to the resources
of the country. Well, I will not propose any duties upon
customs. (Hear, hear.) If we are to embark in a new sys-
tem, let us do it fairly and completely. (Hear, hear.) I
had a proposition—l dare say many persons had proposi-
tions—to show how a deficient revenue might be increased
by imposing custom duties on articles from which they
were—perhaps too precipitately—hopelessly taken off; but
they were part of a system which you have formally given
up, and I will not meddle with such details • but as far as
regards any measures I shall bring before the house, I will
bring them forward in complete harmony with the great
principle of unrestricted competition which the house and
the country have adopted—(hear, hear)—and I will not
propose any plan for the increase of the revenue of the
country which I do not think is founded upon this prin-
ciple. (Hear, hear.) lam not certainly going to
.propose
my increase of the revenue by the other sources of indirect
taxation. (Hear, hear.) I will not enter into any contro-
versy or consideration at present of the merits of those
two sources of revenue—the Customs and Excise ; of
this I am certain, that as we must raise a great portion
of our revenue by indirect taxation, it is necessary in a
country where unrestricted competition is the rule that all
indirect taxation should be moderate in amount. (Hear,
hear.) Well, then, lam not going to propose a new tax;
that is at least a point in advance. (A laugh.) Great as
may be my difficulties, I am not going to propose a new
tax. I am going to ask you to consider an existing tax,
and to apply to its consideration that principle which you
are always supporting. (Hear, hear.) lam going to test
whether you are sincere—(loud laughter,and cries of "Hear,
hear")—in the great effort to relieve the industry of the
country of that yoke of excessive indirect taxation from
which it suffered so long. (Hear, hear.) lam going to ask
the committee to consider the present arrangement of the
house tax. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, I trust the house will
listen to me with kind patience. (Hear, hear.) I know
the clamour that has existed in this country about the
house tax. lam not proposing a house tax—it exists
Already • but I am asking you to consider the principles
on which it is constructed. (Hear, hear.) I don't know
that there is any great portion of the country that has
ever made a greater opposition to the house tax than
that portion of the community which should be the
most enlightened, and which I believe to be inferior to no
part of the people of this country in knowledge or in
public spirit—that is, the inhabitants of the metropolis.
(Hear, hear.) I remember that when the inhabitants of
the metropolis obtained political power they agitated
against what they called the house tax ; but the sound
principles of finance were not very ripe in those days.
The inhabitants of the metropolis—l take them as the
type—were subjected at that time to an enormous load of
taxation. I do not know that their clamour was unreason-
tble, because it was a clamour against enormous taxation,
directed particularly against this tax, because being sud-
denly invested with political power, they raised their
voices against the first and most immediate object that
excited their attention. (Hear, hear.) Remember that
the inhabitants of the metropolis were subjected then to an
enormous system of indirect taxation, and they were sub-
jected also to a direct tax increasing the amount of their
rent, and, in addition to all this, to a tax which they have
subsequently told us was infinitely more grievous, infinitely
more vexatious, and infinitely more injurious than all other
taxes, namely, the corn-laws. (Hear, hear.) Now let me
remind the house of the state of affairs in regard to the
house tax. The duty on houses was repealed in. 1834. It
amounted to 1,198,000/. Since that time the duty on
windows has been repealed, amounting to 1,830,0001.,
making altogether 3,028,0001. Since that time the duty
upon glass has been repealed, amounting to 800,0001.,
100,000/. of which, it appears by official returns, was paid
by windows. Since that time the duty on bricks, amount-
ing to 465,0001., has been taken off. Since that time more
than 1,500,0001. of timber duty has been taken off; and
certainly I may say that one-fourth of the revenue derived
from bricks and timber had been originally contributed by
houses. Besides these, fifteen millions of indirect taxa-
tion have been taken off these dwellers in houses ; and
besides these, those corn laws have been repealed which so
many of them believe to have been a more grievous enact-
ment than all the indirect taxation to which they were ex-
posed. (Hear, hear.) I need not say anything to-night with
respect to the justice of the house tax. The greatest writers
have all agreed that there is no tax more free from objec-
tion than the house tax. I need say nothing to-night
to my predecessor—who is exhausted, like myself—(laugh-
ter)—respecting it, for he has introduced one. But,
dr, what I would venture to say would be this—
that I cannot believe, when I make a proposition which is
one to reconstruct on juster principles—principles which
are always eulogised—the imperfect law as it at present
exists—and when I am asking to do that in order to carry-
measures which will relieve to so great an extent the indus-
try of the country, and assist in so significant a manner to
control all the great branches of trade by which the people
of the country are employed, that we shall in the year 1852
hear the objection that was urged in 1834. (Hear, hear.)
Though there was a clamour raised against the house-tax
in 1834 by men of enlightened mind, I cannot think that
in the age of improvement and progress in which it is our
fortune to live, they will come forward to say that they
prefer the old principles of finance, which would have
thrown the burden on the income of the country, or that
they will object to bearing their quota in this great effort
to terminate, as much as possible, excessive indirect taxa-
tion. (Hear.) I now beg, sir, to call attention to the
principle on which the present house-tax is established.
It is direct taxation, and it is remarkable for all those
imperfections which they say direct taxation ought not to
be distinguished by. (Hear, hear.) You say with regard
to the income tax, that exemptions are intolerable ; you
encourage me in my limited attempt to terminate that
system ; what can you say for your house tax, that limits
its operations to a house of 20/. ? I want to know how you
can possibly maintain a law of that kind. (Hear, hear.)
My hon. friend the member for Montrose, who advocates
with respect to applying taxation, such legitimate conclu-
sions, cannot surely be one in favour (if there be a house
tax) of limiting its operations by exempting so great a
proportion. [Mr. Hume made an observation inaudible in
the gallery.] I want to make him say that—l want to
hear that from his own lips. I want to know if my hon.
friend is in favour of the principle of taxation which I am
trying to recommend to the house, and if he will support
me in the temperate and moderate proposition I am going
to make. (Hear.) I think, sir, we ought to extend the
house tax on the same principle that we are attempting to
extend the income tax, and that we ought to say there are
no exemptions in our financial system of a nature more pre-
posterous than the exemptions connected with the house
tax. Is it to be said that a man, because he lives in a house
rated at 201. per year, should be exempt from contributing
to the support of the Government ? (Hear.) I think we
ought to extend the house tax, and to do it in the same
spirit that I would propose any of those measures to you
to-night—not wishing to push them forward, but trying to
form the public mind for their reception by degrees, seek-
ing thus to obtain the support of the people for propositions
which I am convinced will contribute to their welfare and
prosperity. I will say it is not an unreasonable proposition
if we ask to extend the present house tax to houses of 101.
a year. (Hear.) At present private houses pay ninepence
in the pound, and shops pay sixpence in the pound, the ex-
emption commencing at under 201. I felt at the time that
proposition was made that, both as to the basis upon which
it was formed, and the rate upon which it was assessed, we
had sanctioned—l say it with great respect to the right
hon. gentleman (Sir C. Wood)—a very dangerous course.
(Hear, hear.) I remember that I made frequent efforts to
resist its progress, and that I received the distinguished
sanction of the right hon. gentleman the member for the
University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) ; but useless at that
time of the session were my attempts to draw the attention
of the house to the subject—it was stealing through this
assembly without sufficient notice, and I felt that you were
sanctioning a measure which we should all some day regret.
I think we should increase the basis according to the mo-
derate proposition I suggest, and that the present basis
should be extended to 101. houses. (Hear, hear.) I do
not mean to say you should stop at 10/. houses ; I want
my proposition to be taken for what it is, an advance in
the right direction, and it is all I can venture to propose
at present. (Hear.) I think also we ought to increase
the rate. We should remember that when the measures
with which this measure is accompanied are passed—
and, probably, unless they are passed, this proposition
will not be carried—great advantages will be conferred
upon the inhabitants of those houses—that those in
trade, for example, will have a recognition from the
Legislature of the difference between realised and precarious
incomes, and that their condition will be improved by
that arrangement in a manner most gratifying to their
feelings, as well-as advantageous to their substance. They
will also be benefited by the reduction of taxation on two

articles involving domestic expenditure, whereby they will
get cheap_beer and cheap tea, while they will also derive
advantage from the benefits which those measures will con-
fer on the trade and commerce of the country. (Hear.)
Under these circumstances I make the proposition which,
while it will be effective for the maintenance of public
credit, will enable us to carry into effect the policy which
the Government intend to adopt. In doing so I have
taken into consideration the psition of the inhabitant
of houses with regard to the amount of taxatica
to which they are subject. I find, as a guide to me, very
significant circumstances. I find that the inhabitants of
houses subject to the duty got rid of their house duty ;
they were freed from their glass duty, their timber duty,
and their brick duty ; they were freed from all that im-
mense mass of indirect taxation which I have adverted to;
they have been freed from the operation of the corn laws,
of which they very often complained, and they were re-
lieved from the tax on windows. I need not call to the
recollection of the committee the circumstances under
which the tax upon windows was taken off. (Hear, hear.)
It was not asked for by the inhabitants of houses as a re-
lief from the burdens of taxation. They did not ask to
be relieved from the tax in 1851, because it was a grievous
and vexatious tax ; of course they did not ; how could
they, as men of consistency, honour, and honesty do so ?
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) They had been relieved from
the house tax ; they had been relieved from the tax upon
timber ; they had been relieved from the tax upon
bricks ; they had been relieved, besides, from an im-
mense amount of indirect taxation ; they were re-
velling in the relief they obtained from the repeal
of the corn laws. (Loud laughter.) It was said the
country never was more prosperous, the people were never
more happy and contented ; but that there was one great
point before us—we must consider the sanitary condition of
the people, and we must remove the tax upon windows,
because it injuriously affected their sanitary condition.
(Hear.) Therefore we have put an end to it, but if, with-
out affecting the sanitary condition of the people, we can
gain a contribution to the Exchequer out of houses accord-
ing to a system which the people do not on principle object
to, we certainly will be doing an act of injustice. (Hear.)
If we do not invent a tax—if we merely propose a recon-
struction of the house tax that will not exceed the tax that
was not objected to on account of its amount, but because
Of the effect on the sanitary condition of the people, no
person can object to it. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) But
I will not do so much. I will not propose a scheme that
will levy so large an amount of taxation as the window
tax. First of all, I will levy it upon an enlarged area,
and in an accordance with a moderate proposition, which,
however, will place the funds of the country in a sound
position. I will propose that the tax shall extend to. 101.
houses, that private houses, rated at 15,848,600, shall be
rated at 18d. in the pound, and shops at ls. in the pound.
(Hear, hear.) I take it that the sum which will thereby
be produced will amount to 1,723,0001, which; if I recollect
rightly, is 150,0001. less than the tax upon windows, which
they only objected to in consequence of the desire for
sanitary reform. Having made that proposition, I may
now complete my statement for 1853-54, it having been
necessary to enter into those details in the middle of it,
which shows, as I have already stated, that the extra ways
and means will; be 2,500,0001. against an extra expenditure
of 2,100,000. (Hear, hear.) This, I believe, will be the
statemhnt of 1854-55. In 1854-55 there will be a loss on
malt of 1,700,0001; the loss on tea, by the reduction of the
duty of 2d. per pound, modified by an increased consump-
tion of, I think, 4,000,0001b5., will amount to a sum
of 567,0001; there will be a loss on hops of 120,0001.
(hear, hear) ; there will also be the loss arising from
increased estimates, which I again put down at 600,0001.,
and the loss on the light dues, making altogether
3,087,0001. Now as to ways and means. There will be, I
think, a surplus for 1854-55 of 1,800,000/., for I do not see
that there can be any claim then for the Kaffir war ; there
will be repayments, 400,0001. ; there will be on account of
the reduction of the Three-and-a-Quarter per Cents. in the
half of the year in which it will come into operation,
310,0001.—f0r which we are indebted to the most success-
ful of modem Chancellors of the Exchequer, who twice
had the honour and distinction of reducing the public debt,
and therefore has been of more service to the country than
any other Chancellor of the Exchequer ; we shall have the
house tax in full play, 1,000,000/. ; that makes 3,510,000/. ;
so that in the first year the surplus will be 400,0001., and
in the second year, something about 500,0001.—and that is
the state of our finances. I have endeavoured to place be-
fore the house those measures of financial and administra-
tive reform which her Majesty's Government are pre-
pared at once to bring forward. My hon. friend the
member for Montrose suggested that I should be prepared
to make a proposition with respect to the duty on stamps
for marine insurances. What I say on that question is,
that it is a subject which cannot be properly discussed in
these preliminary remarks. (Hear, hear, hear.) We have
confined ourselves to proposing those measures which we
are prepared, if the house will sanction, to carry into ope-
ration for raising the' revenue and bringing all the revenue
of the country under the control of Parliament. We have
studiously abstained from offering any opinion upon any
part of our system of taxation on which we are not pre-
pared immediately to act. I think we have brought for-
ward essentially practical measures, if the house will sanc-
tion them—measures which will, in our opinion, lay down
certain principles of finance, which will lead to results
highly beneficial to the people of this country. If the
house shall sanction them, they will lay the foundation
for further measures, which we believe will prove still
more beneficial, but it does not become us, according to
our sense of duty, to offer anything to the house
but what is of a practical nature, and to make
no proposition which we are not prepared immediately,
with the sanction of the house, to carry into effect. We
have not neglected the investigation of the question
of the probate duties. , We think it is not impossible
to bring forward a duty on succession that will reconcile
contending interests' and terminate what we think a sys-
tem of injustice, but we are not prepared with any mea-
sure of the kind. We think that we have proposed enough
for the house to-night. What we have proposed is of a
practical character, and we think it would be highly inju-
dicious on our part to advance a step further than we are
prepared to act. I admit that what we propose is a first
step, but I trust the house will feel that we meet the ques-
tion in a large and comprehensive spirit. If the .house
will support the policy which I have to-night—l am aware,
most inadequately—explained to the country, they will
support a policy which wo believe will be for the welfare
of the people of this country, because it is a policy founded
upon sound principles of Anance, and because it has no
other object but to govern this country in a manner that
will conduce most to the happiness of the greatest number.
The right hon. gentleman, who was speaking for about five
hours and a quarter, resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.
The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution That
17,000,0001. be granted to her Majesty to defray the ex-
penses of outstanding Exchequer bills.
Mr GOULBURN—It is far from my intenion to enter
at length into the statement which the right honourable
gentlemen has made, but I think it is necessary to make
some inquiries on one or two points on which the right
hon. gentleman has not given the explanations that are ne-
cessary. The right hon. gentleman has omitted to state
whether he proposes the income-tax. to be a permanent tax
for the future, or whether it will not--a point most im-
portant in dealing with the question. The right hon. gen--
tleman has omitted to state whether, in repealing the 'malt-
duty, he proposes also to repeal the prohibitory duty on the
importation of malt. 'He further omitted to state what is
the alteration to be made in the duty on the importation
of hops, when he proposes the reduction of the duty. I
shall be glad also to have some information with respect to
the use of molasses in breweries, and how he is prepared to
give effect to that measure, and also to the measure for the
equalisation of the duty on rum. I must enter my protest
against one principle, which, as I understood, was laid
down by the right hon. gentleman. He proposed, as I un-
derstood him, to impose' a higher rate of income-tax on in-
comes derived from funded property, than that which he
proposes to impose upon other classes of property. In Ire-
land the tax will be imposed on funds alone ; in England
a rate of duty is to be imposed upon funded property diffe-
rent from that which is imposed on other property. This
is the very question on which Mr. Pitt defeated Mr. Ad-
dington when the income tax was renewed in 1803—that
is as to the nature of the exemption ,granted to funded pro-
perty and to other property ; one class being exempted at
501., and the other at 1001. The principle is thus violated
which we have always considered—and which every states-
man for the last fifty years has considered, and of which
the house has testified its recognition as a sound principle—
that all income, from whatever source derived, must, in
justice to the contract on which the fundholder lends his
money, be subjected to an equal rate of charge. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL : I am not going to make any ob-
servations on the statement which the right hon. gentle-
man has made, but I wish to ask a question with regard
to the mode in which he intends to proceed with the various
propositions which he has laid before the house. He must
be aware that with respect to many of those duties, and
especially concerning his proposition, the house tax, the
country will be very anxious to learn the decision of the
house. Indeed, if we were, now in February, the right
hon. gentleman would expect us 'to come to a specific reso-
lution on this subject, but at this season of the year, I sup-
pose he will propose some other arrangement by which the
public interest will be served. I should wish to know the
course which he intends to pursue.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER : I intend
to 'propose certain resolutions, and then, if they are ac-
ceded to, I shall bring in the necessary bills. Of course,
as regards the duties on tea, I should wish that the reduc-
tions should take immediate effect, subject of course to the
final decision of the house—an arrangement which I
believe will not be attended by any difficulty. I will pro-
pose these resolutions on the earliest day which will be
convenient to the house. I do not at present know the
feeling of the [house on that subject, and I am afraid to
appear to be urging the house to a precipitate conclusion,
but if there was no objection I would propose this day
week. It is not for me to state to the house the day on
which they should take these resolutions into considera-
tion ; it is my wish to give them a fair time for the consi-
deration of the subject ; but, as I have already said, if
they would not think this day week too precipitate, I
would propose the resolutions on that day.
Sir C. WOOD said that he was not going to make any
observations on the propositions of the right hon. gentle-
man. He merely wished to offer a remark or two upon the
course of proceeding to be pursued. If the proposition of the
right honourable gentleman were merely to reduce the tea
duty, or to increase the house duty, he should think it
perfectly possible that resolutions carrying out those mea-
sures might be proposed, discussed, and decided upon on
Friday next. But surely the right hon. gentleman did
not propose then to pass resolutions involving the variety
of complicated matters which it had taken him five hours
to explain, involving questions of the most difficult nature,
on which the most different opinions might be entertained,
and which, as he said, hang very much together. A gen-
tleman might be perfectly ready to agree to a resolution
for the reduction of the tea duties—which was a matter of
no great amount, and which might be dealt with out of
the existing surplus ; but it could not be supposed
that the house would be ready to agree without
much consideration to his ' propositions with respect
to the income tax, to the increase of the house duty,
or to the reduction of the malt tax. And he thought
it was quite essential that before they committed them-
selves to large reductions of taxation (such as the pro-
posed reduction of the malt tax), they should be quite sure
that they were ready to vote the subsequent proposition.
Let them be sure of the ways and means before they rushed
into rash reductions. (Hear.) He was not a little alarmed
when on the first day of the session he heard the noble
earl at the head of the Government declare in another
place that the financial measures to be proposed by the
Goverment to carry out their principles might lead to
financial embarrassment. Nor was his alarm diminished
by what he had heard that night. If the house was ready
to assent to the increased taxes proposed by the right hon.
gentleman, then no doubt the reduction might be effected.
I But he was sure that no man in his position would think

himself justified in making so large a reduction as two and
a half millions until he had secured those measures on
which he relied to make up the deffciency in Ihe revenue
t'ius created. Nor did he think it likely that he could pass
his measures with regard to the income -Lex' the house tax,
and the malt tax, before Christmas. The doubling of the
house tax and the reduction of the malt tax were com-
paratively simple questions ; but with regard to the income
tax, the right honourable gentleman must be aware that
by his propositions he would raise four or five questions of
vital importance, that he could have no hope of settling
before Christmas. He wished to know what course the
Government intended to pursue on these questions, and
particularly with regard to the income tax and the house
tax.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who was
very indistinctly heard, said that the observations of the
noble earl at the head of the Government to which the
hon. Bart. (Sir C. Wood) had alluded, had not the slight-
est reference to anything that he said or proposed. The•
noble earl said that we had embarked on a system that
might lead to financial embarrassment, but that the noble
earl had said that anything which he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) might bring forward might lead to finan-
cial embarrassment was one of the most monstrous state-
ments that he had ever heard made in that house. He
firmly believed the measures which he had proposed were
as sound as could be proposed, and that they were calcu-
lated to conduce to the general welfare. He was convinced
that the opinion of the house should be taken upon these
subjects as soon as possible, and he should, therefore, on
Friday next, propose to the huse resolutions to carry into
effect his recommendations with respect to the reduc-
tion of the tea duty and the increase of the house-tax.
The income and property-tax did not expire until the
sth of April, and it was not, therefore, necessary
immediately to deal with that ; nor should he think of
asking the house to consent to the seduction of the malt
tax without seeing their way perfectly clear with respect
to the means of meeting the deficiency which would be
thus created. He never made a proposition in that
house of which ho did not think that the general effect was
to maintain public credit. He would, as he had said, pro-
pose on Friday next, resolutions with respect to the re-
duction of the tea duties and the alteration of the house
duties, and if the - house agreed to them they would then
see their way clear. He thought that that course would
be perfectly fair. With respect to the income tax, it was
certainly proposed by the Government plan that it should
be continued for three years, nor did he know that it was
necessary, if the house agreed to that proposition, that the
Government should state what their intentions beyond
that time were. He thought it very possible that the
financial system of the country must in future depend to a
certain degree upon direct taxation ; but he did not think
the income tax was at all the best form in which that
direct taxation might take place. He found, however, the
country habituated to that tax, which had thus become IPQg
objectionable to them, and he knew that if he had pro-
posed a new direct tax to an equal amount they would not
have borne it. He did not, indeed, propose the income
tax as a permanent feature of our financial system ; for he
thought it quite possible if the same amount of direct taxa-
tion were necessary, that a better form might be adopted.
He had, however, great confidence in the consuming power
of this country, and he thought that it might progress in
meth a manner that he might ultimately be able to raise our
revenue by indirect taxation. He thought (as we under-
stood the right hon. gentleman) that it would be pos-
sible eventually to raise 60 millions per annum by indirect
taxation. The right hon. gentleman opposite had asked
whether it was the intention of the Government to pro-
pose the equalisation of the duty on rum. That was not
a question on which the Government were prepared to
make any proposition. The right hon. gentleman had also
asked whether the Government intended to repeal the duty
on foreign malt, which he described as prohibitory. Now
it was clear that we must have a duty on foreign to coun-
teract that on domestic malt, and we must also take into
consideration the duty now imposed on foreign barley; but
if the present duty on foreign malt was not necessary for
the purposes of revenue, he should not stand up in that
house to advocate a prohibitory duty.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he understood that the
right hon. gentleman proposed on Friday next to bring
forward resolutions in some form or other for the reduction
of the tea duties, and for doubling the house tax. He
wished to know in what form these resolutions would be
proposed. If the right hon. gentleman would on Monday
lay before the house the resolutions which he would pro-
pose in the committee on Friday, he (Lord J. Russell) saw
no objection to the course which he proposed to adopt.
Mr. HUME was glad that this conversation had taken
place, because on a question of such a complicated character
it was desirable that the house should see its way perfectly
dear. With the exception of the proposition with re-
spect to the light duties, he agreed entirely witt the recom-
mendation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, every one
of which had been urged again and again on that (the
Opposition) side of the house. But he must express his
great regret that the right hon. gentleman should have
merely proposed to reduce the duty on hops. It ought to
have been entirely abolished, for after the proposed reduc-
tion of ld. per pound, the expense of collection would be
nearly equal to the revenue raised, while the same amount
of taxation consequent upon an excise tax would be left as
at present. Then with regard to the malt tax, he was
either for removing it altogether or not touching it at all.
The proposed reduction would not destroy the brewers'
monopoly, nor remove the inconvenience attending an ex-
cise duty ; there would be a loss to the revenue without the
consumer being benefited thereby. He agreed with the noble
lord that the first question for the house to consider was,
whether they were prepared to agree to the proposed in-
crease of taxation. He thought that if their concur-
rence of that was to be the condition of the reduction
on the duty on tea, he could propose an easier way of mak-
ing up the deficiency ; and that was by imposing a tax on
the descent of real property, which had not paid a single
shilling, while up to this period 89,000,000/. had been levied
on personal property. He thought the time had come
when all particular privileges should be done away with,
and the whole community should be treated as one interest.
It was impossible that the plan proposed should meet
with the approbation of the country, setting up, as it did,
the country against the town. If the right honourable
gentleman had wished to place our finances on a simple
footing, what could have been more easy than to have re-
pealed the house tax, and to have added one per cent. to
the property tax, which would have been more than would
have been required. He objected also to the proposed
exemption of the land of Ireland from the income tax.
He had always called for justice to Ireland, but he was
not one of those who would give equality of rights to that
country without calling upon her also to bear her fair share
of the public burdens, and ho thought that no system
of taxation that might be adopted would be satisfac-
tory to the country until Ireland was placed on the
same footing as England. If the Irish claimed equality of
rights, they should also be proud to claim equality of taxa-
tion. (Laughter.) He thought that the first question to be de-
cided was, whether they should double the house tax. Then,
with respect to the income tax the house should decidewhether
it was to be a permanent part of the revenue of the country,
for if it was, they must immediately have a committee to
decide upon the mode in which it should be levied, and
whether they would be justified in agreeing to the exemp-
tions proposed by the Government. He should propose
that a tax of 1 per cent. on the descent of real property
should be added to the house tax. He could not help re-
gretting that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have
fallen short of the principles which he had himself
enunciated.
Sir B. HALL wished to state the course which he should
When
continuation h
ito sat
shouldo n tbhee
of
extended
xiee
nr
income
ds iedde
tho f 1
itt
ahexe.
feel it his duty to take when the house went into committee
howfoausws
pea
ryhosepaonsmoved,oddml
aseatnwysh.oear7tthheea
Ire-
land on the same footing as it was now levied in England.
That motion did notreceive the support of the then Govern-
ment, but it was generally
supported by the then Oppo-
sition, who now occupied the ministerial benches. When,
therefore, the house went into committee, he should take
the opportunity of again proposing
the resolution which
he had moved last year. With regard to doubling the
house tax, instead of imposing other taxes, he agreed with
the remark of his hon. friend the member' for Montrose,
that the proposition was one setting
and against that they had to fight,
town against country ;
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that as to the proposition of
the right hon. gentleman with regard to the shipping inte-
rest, he thought he was a little deficient in candour in his
statements on that subject. He would have led the house
to suppose that since the navigation laws were repealed
nothing had been done in the matter of light dues or in
any other matter in which the shipping interest was con-
cerned. Now he (Mr. Labouchere) Would go with the right
hon. gentleman in every measure that he proposed for the
relief of the shipping interest with the utmost cordiality,
but when he proposed to relieve them of 100,0001. of light
dues, he could not help reminding him that since the repeal
of the navigation laws, the late Government, in concurrence
with the Trinity-house, had relieved them of light dues to
a much greater amount than that. Owing to the measures
taken by the late Government in concurrence with the Tri-
nity-house, the light dues paid by the shipping interest had
been reduced to one-fourth of what they originally were. He
had no desire to make any observations on the statement of
the right hon. gentleman, for he felt that the attention of
questions that had been raised; and any observations upon
tthheemhowuosueldwcaosmeexhwiauthstmeducbhybtehe great and complicated
better
effect after the propo-
sitions of her Majesty's Ministers had receivedthe deliberate
consideration which they deserve& There was, however,
one point upon which he felt so strongly that he must say a
single word—the point alluded to by his
right hon. friend
the member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goul-
burn). He said it in no spirit of taunting, but he could not
' help thinking that the right hon. gentleman had not con-
sideredextend
thetha that
incomepart of
tax his t budgeto Irish
übnyd e d
which he proposed to
property only, ex-
empting the land of Ireland, and the professional incomes
of Ireland—that was, to select for taxation a particular
class of property, and that the one which rested on the
pledged faith of the country. Pin Was convinced that
the right hon. gentleman had not studied this part of the
!lions of Mr. Pitt,
and of eve financier
who ever held high office in this country, oche would
sLuobrjdecot.ren H
vile
Iceo,ulLd
Lord
dot have
H. rreetate o
have seen how grossly such a proposal violated the prin-
ciples of public faith ; and he was sure that the right
fhon.or apropose that,
to
annum, this
country should allow a stain to rest for a moment on the
migensetralemblaenawndoupladltbrye
stumhe
of last6o ,mooaont.
Labouchere)
national honour. He (Mr. must give up
every opinion he had derived from the great men to whom
he had referred, if he did not believe that the proposed
plan to tax property in the Irish funds to the exclusion
of all other kinds of property in that country, was utterly
at variance with every principle upon which the good faith
of the country, and the public security in it, rested.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CAYLEY said that ho believed the sentiments of
his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
upon this point had been entirely misunderstood. He was
sure that no one who read his speech would come to the
conclusion that he wished to tax the Irish funds to the ex-
clusion of any other kind of property He understood
him to state distinctly that the lan and all other property
in Ireland were just as amenable to the income tax as any
property in this country, but that he would not at this
moment impose any increase of taxation upon that part of
Ireland which had lately suffered so grievous a calamity.
Now, had he heard anything in the lucid statement of his
right honourable friend which was calculated to raise the
question of country against town ? He had heard many
budgets, but never one more comprehensive and impartial.
He meant to deal with all the interests that had been suf-
fering for the last two or three years in what was called
the spirit of recent egislation. With respect to what had
fallen from the honourable member for Montrose, he must
observe that he and others who acted with him were
favourable to direct taxation until it came to be applied
to themselves. (Hear.) Nobody was more favourable to
the total repeal of the malt tax than he (Mr. Cayley) ;
bat the power of the Chancellor 0 the Exchequer was
limited. He believed that the full benefit of the re-
peal of that tax would not be felt until the whole was
repealed, but he must remind his honourable friend (Mr.
Hume) that he had always opposed propositions for the
total repeal. Indeed, not to confine the observation to
him, he might remark that the year before he first brought

forward the question of the repeal of the malt tax in the
last Parliament, the members for the West Ridinc, (Mr.
Cobden) and for Manchester (Mr. Bright) had proposed it,
and yet when he introduced his motion one of these hon.
gentlemen ab3ented himself, and the other opposed it.
(Laughter.) He trusted that the propositions that his
right hon. friend hadlmade would receive the impartial con-
sideration of the house. Although not committing him-
self to an unreserved approbation of the whole of them,
he begged, on the part of his constituents, to tender to the
right hon. gentleman his thanks for what he conceived to
be the best budget that he had ever heard. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. WILSON wished to put a question to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer with regard to one part of his
statement. The only proposition that he had made with
respect to the West Indian interest was, that sugar should
be permitted to be refined in bond. Now, when that
question was discussed two or three years ago, two
methods were proposed on which the refining was to be

carried on. One iras, that the refiners should be per-
mitted either to refine in bond or to refine sugar on
which the duty had been paid_ and the other was,

that they should be obliged to refine in bond. Now the
right hon. gentleman did not state which of these two
methods lie intended to adopt ; and as it was of the greatest
possible importance to those concerned in sugar refineries
to know this as early as possible, perhaps the right hon.
gentleman would now state the course he proposed to per-
sue. With regard to the observations of the right hon.
gentleman the member for the University of Oxford, with
respect to the extension of the income tax to Ireland, he
must observe that he hoped the house would not depart
from the principles on which they had hitherto acted with
respect to this tax.
Mr. FITZROY said that he understood the Chancellor of
the Exchequer in the beginning of his speech, when refer-
ring to the burdens of which he was going to relieve the
shipping interest, to allude to the duties on marine insurances
at the same time stating that it would be perhaps more
convenient to the house that he should mention in a subse-
quent part of his speech the amount of revenue which he
was prepared to sacrifice. Ho thought, however, that the
right hon. gentleman omitted to state the amount of the
sacrifice under that head, and he should, be obliged to him
if he would now inform the house whether the duties on
marine insurance were included in the 100,0001. which he
proposed to take off the shipping interest. He wished,
also, for some further explanation with respect to
the amount of revenue which the Chancellor of
the Exchequer was prepared to abandon, for while he un-
derstood him to say that the reduction on the malt tax
would amount to two millions and a half per annum, he
also understood him to say that the only loss on this head
during the year ending the 10th of October next would be
one million, which he should have to pay on drawbacks.
He did not understand him to include any part of the re-
maining million and a half that would be sacrificed. Did
none of that, however, come into account in the financial
year ending the sth of April next ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the ho-
nourable gentleman had misunderstood the observations
which he made with respect to marine insurances. What
he said was this. He stated the points which the shipping
interest had represented to Government, and among them
he came to the stamps on marine insurance and charter
parties. With respect to these, he remarked, that as they
concerned the general finances of the country, he could not
advert to them at that part of his speech. At a subse-
quent part of his speech, he stated that the Government
would then confine themselves to bringing forward those
measures which they were prepared to pass ; that the stamp
duties, and also the legocy and probate duties, had undergone
their consideration, but that, as they were not then prepared
to recommend any alterations in the stamp duties, he should
not further advert to it. With respect to the reduction of the
malt tax, the loss that the revenue would suffer in the year
ending the 10th October next would be the one million
sterling of drawback, which would have to be repaid. The
effect upon the revenue depended upon various circum-
stances, such as increased consumption and other causes
into which it was not then necessary to enter; but he hoped
that the loss to the revenue for 1854 would not amount to
more than 1,700,0001.
Mr. MACGREGOR regretted that the right hon. gen-
tlemen had proposed so long a period as five years for
effecting the reduction of the tea duties to a shilling duty.
With regard to the house duty, he thoughtthit it would
be far more just to add the amount of it to the income-tax
at once, than to propose it in a separate form. When
these question should come before them for discussion, he
believed that the majority of opinions out of doors would
be found to agree with his own.
Colonel SIBTHORP owed it as a duty to his country to
say that he could not approve of the measures brought for-
ward by the right hon. gentleman. He (Colonel Sibthorp)
was in favour of protection to all British interests, but
there was one interest inparticular which had been declared
by the right hon. gentleman to be in a state of great suf-
fering, but of which no notice was now taken. (Hear.)
With regard to the malt tax, if only half of it were re-
mitted, they would have all the same difficulties, and vexa-
tious proceedings that were complained of at present. (Hear.)
He for one had always objected to the income tax, because
it was properly a war tax, and ought not to be imposed in
time of peace. But though he disapproved of the right
honourable gentleman's proposals, yet, comparing one
Government with another, he must say that the late
Government was worth nothing, while it still remained to
be proved whether the present Government was wholly
worthless, and he was therefore willing to give it his sup-
port as far as he could.
Mr. CLAY expressed his congratulations and thanks to
the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the relief which he
proposed to give to the shipping interest.
Sir J. DUKE could not help joining in an expression of
thanks to the right honourable gentleman for the interest
which he had evinced for the claims of the shipping
interest, who, he was sure, would have a lively sense of
the kindness of the right hon. gentleman's intentions
towards them.
Mr. HUDSON wished also to express the gratification
with which he had listened to the statement of the right
honourable gentleman with reference to the shipping
interest, and ha begged to assure him that it would be re-
ceived with great satisfaction by his (Mr. Hudson's) con-
stituents. He hoped that the question of the entire re-
duction of the timber duties would not be lost sight of by
her Majesty's Government.
Mr. ALCOCK begged to tender his thanks to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer for his proposal to repeal one-half
of the malt tax. He thought that the whole of that tax
ought to be done away with ; but he was willing to accept
the right honourable gentleman's proposition by way of
instalment. With respect to the tea duties, he, for one,
was perfectly satisfied with the proposed reduction. He
regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not
made up his mind to carry out the income tax to the fullest
extent possible, so that every man in the country might be
taxed, be his income what it might.
Mr. FREWEN felt bound heartily to thank the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the
very able statement he had put before them, and for a plan
which he believed would, in various ways, be beneficial to
his constituents. He wished particularly to call attention
to one subject in which a great proportion of his consti-
tuents were interested —he meant the heavy dues at
present levied on shipping in the shape of passing tolls.
He did not know whether the right hon. gentleman was
acquainted with the system of taxes on shipping estab-
lished in France, which he thought well worthy of
being adopted in 'this country. Every ship which went
into a French harbour knew what it had to pay for
harbour dues, whilst it had nothing to pay for lights.
This was a matter in which improved regulations
were loudly called for, as many of our harbours were in a
disgraceful state. With regard to the proposal to take off
half the malt tax, he was strongly of opinion that this
would lead to but a trifling loss of revenue. On the 'sub-
ject of the hop duty, he would not now pledge himself as
to moving any amendment on the Ministerial proposition,
feeling bound in the first instance to consult his consti-
tuents. For the plan in general he again begged to thank
her Majesty's Government.
The resolution was then put and agreed to.
A second resolution, that a sum not exceeding
2,000,0001. be granted to her Majesty for defraying a
like amount of supplies voted for the service of the year
1852 and the preceding year," was then put from the chair
and agreed to.
Mr. LABOUCHERE inquired whether the right hon.
gentleman would lay on the table on Monday the precise
terms of the resolutions on which his measures were to be
founded.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied in
the affirmative.
The house then resumed.
COUNTY ELECTIONS POLLS BILL.
Lord R. GROSVENOR moved the recommittal of this
bill, and stated that he proposed to introduce a clause,
giving power to the sheriff to adjourn the poll in case of
disturbance, with a view to remove doubts on this point.
The bill was then recommitted.
The other orders of the day having been disposed of, the
house adjourned at a quarter-east eleven o'clock.

FROM THE GAZETTE OF YESTERDAY.

WHITEHALL, DEC. 2.

The Queen has been pleased to direct letters patent to
be passed under the Great Seal, granting the dignity of
a Knight of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland, unto Charles Robert Mitchell Jackson, Esquire,
Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court of Judicature at
Bombay.

WAR-OFFICE, DEo 3.
4th Regiment of Light Dragoons—Lieutenant the
Honourable Charles James Keith, from the 10th Light
Dragoons, to be Lieutenant, vice Fairlie, who exchanges,
Dec. 3.
10th Light Dragoons—Lieutenant Herbert James
Fairlie, from the 4th Light Dragoons, to be Lieutenant,
vice the Honourable Charles James Keith, who ex-
changes, Dec. 3.
6th Regiment of Foot—Lieutenant George Grant
Webb to be Captain, without purchase, vice Crowder,
deceased ; Ensign Francis William Henry M'Ccleland
to be Lieutenant, without purchase, vice Webb, Sept.
24 ; Gentleman Cadet Lewis Blyth Hole, from the Royal
Military College, to be Ensign, without purchase, vice
M'Cleland, Dec. 3.
14th Foot—Gentleman Cadet Reginald Henry Gra-
ham, from the Royal Military College, to be Ensign,
vice Elwyn, superseded for being absent without leave,
Dec. 3.
17th Foot--Brevet Lieutenant Colonel Philip M'Pher-
son, C. 8., to be Lieutenant-Colonel, without purchase,
vice Stoyte, appointed Inspecting Field Officer of a Re-
cruiting District, Captain Oliver Paget Bourke to be
Major, without purchase, vice M'Pherson, Lieutenant
William A. Armstrong to be Captain, without purchase,
vice Bourke, Ensign James Lawson to be Lieutenant,
without purchase, vice Armstrong, Gentleman Cadet
Shadweil Henry Clarke, from the Royal Military Col-
lege, to be Ensign, without purchase, vice Lawson,
Dec. 3.
42th Foot—Ensign Joshua Walter Bond to be Lieu-
tenant, by purchase, vice Platt, who retires ; Ensign
Edward Le Marchant to be Lieutenant, by purchase,
vrce Young, who retires, Dec. 3.
59th Foot—Staff Surgeon of the Second Class Alex-
ander Campbell to be Surgeon, vice Macpherson, ap-
pointed to the Staff, Dec. 3.
82nd Foot—Lieutenant John Lawrie to be Captain,
by purchase) vice Pardoe, who retires ; Ensign John
Dalbiac Luard to be Lieutenant, by purchase, vice
Lawrie, Dec. 3.
85th Foot--Lieutenant Charles Hamilton Aide to be
Captain, by purchase, vice the Honourable John Edmund
Hovel Thurlow, who retires ; Ensign Lord John Henry
Taylour to be Lieutenant, by purchase, vice Aide,
Dec. 3.
97th Foot—Major-General Henry Adolphus Proctor,
C.B. to be Colonel, vice Lieutenant-General Sir Henry
Frederick Bouverie, K.C.8., deceased, Nov. 28.
Sum—Lieutenant-Colonel John Stoyte, from the

7111 Foot, to be Inspecting Field Officer of a Recruiting
District, vice Lieutenant-Colonel Magenis, deceased,'
Dec. 3.
HOSPITAL. STAFF.—Surgeon Eneas Macintosh Mac-
pherson, from the Nth Foot, to be Staff Surgeon of the
second class, vice Campbell, appointed to the"s9th Foot ;
Asssistant Staff Surgeon, John Thomas Watson Bacot,
t 3 be Staff Surgeon of the second class, Dec. 3.
MEMORANDA.--ThO Christian names of Captain Bur-
ton, on half-pay of the 37th Foot, are Joseph Netterville.
The alteration of the date of the Commission of Lieu-
tenant Robert William Benison, of the 99th Foot, which
appeared in the Gazette of the 2nd of September, 1851,
had reference to the Regimental, and not to that Officer's
Army Date.