The Sun.
London, England, 1864-02-26 00:00:00

POLAND.

Mr. HENNESSY then rose to put a question to the
noble lord at the head of the Government on a subject he
had before brought under the notice of the house. It seemed
that a despatch was sent to Prince Gortschakoff, containing
something similar to the declaration made by the noble earl
at the head of Foreign Affairs in his speech of Blairgowrie,
and that that despatch had been subsequently officially
transmitted to Prince Gortschakoff. The question he had
to ask was, had that despatch been sent to any other Minis-
ters in Europe, especially had it been sent to Lord Bloom-
field, and then communicated in its complete form to Count
Rechberg ? He wished to know whether, assuming that he
was right in stating that the despatch had been so commu-
nicated to Count Rechberg, the house was entitled to receive
it. It was very unusual for a Minister of State in sending
a despatch to one Government to send a copy of it to other
Governments. But Lord Russell in his Polish policy chose
to take that course, and consentaneously sent to three other
Governments the despatch which was placed in the hands
of Prince Gortschakoff. The despatch coming to Count
Rechberg, arrived by telegraph at St. Petersburg before the
official despatch, and Herr von Bismark attached so much
importance to it that he was inclined to think it would
make a cams belli. He should like to know whether there
had been any correspondence between the Prussian Govern-
ment and our Government, with respect to this altered de-
spatch, and, if so, whether Herr von Bismark's despatches
would be given in full to the house. His question to the
noble lord was, whether the despatch was to be found in its
complete form in the portfolios of any of the Foreign
Ministers; and, secondly, whether the Prussian Govern-
ment had entered into any correspondence on the subject
with the English Government, and, if so, whether the noble
lord would produce it.

Lord PALMERSTON—I am afraid I can only repeat
what I stated on a former occasion,namely,that her Majesty's
Government are responsible to this house to give every infor-
mation as to any communications which may take place
with foreign Governments with respect to our foreign policy,
but it is not our duty to state to this house what change may
have been made or intended to be made from time to time,
before or after a despatch may have been communicated to
any of our Ministers abroad. I believe that the despatch
which was communicated officially to Prince Gortschakeff
has been laid on the table.
Mr. HENNESSY—As altered?
Lord PALMERSTON—And that is the despatch by
which we abide.
NAVY ESTIMATES.

The house then went into committee on the navy esti-
mates, Mr. Massey in the chair.

Lord C. PAGET, in rising to move the navy estimates,
ssid—l wish to express my regret that I had not an oppor-
tunity of answering the observations of the hon. baronet ;
and it was only because I thought that his motion was post-
poned that I moved the Speaker to leave the chair ; and,
without intending any disrespect to him with regard to the
interesting remarks which were made by the lion, baronet,
I can only say it is the great desire of her Majesty's Govern-
ment that the navy should be maintained in a manner worthy
the dignity of the country; and I think it will be seen that
exertions have been made from year to year to ace omplish
this object. It was well said by a gallant officer on this
side that we might go too fast; while the hon. baronet op-
posite said we went too slow; but I think I can show that
we have preserved the mean between the two. Before I
address myself to the estimates I will allude to some altera-
tions in the form of thorn, arising out of the recommenda-
tions of the committee on public accounts. At page 3 the
net cost of the navy will be found, after deducting from
the gross estimates the annual repayments. For the
year 1862-3 these repayments amounted to £297,000 odd ;
for the present year the amount is £273,000 ; and for
next year, 1861-5, which is only a mere estimate, it is given
as £263,000 odd. So that the public can now know the net
cost of the navy; and that generally the net cost is about a
quarter of a million less than that presented to Parliament.
There is another alteration, and this is the farm of vote No.
2. That vote has been remodelled this year, also on the re-
commendation of the same committee. If hon. members
will turn to page 105 in the appendix, they will find the vote
in its old form, and will thus be able to compare item by
item the vote of last year with the present. The alteration
is in order that the estimates may be given in the same form
as in the annual detailed account. I will now turn to the
estimates themselves, For the year 1864-5 they amounted
to £10,432,61.0; last year the amount was £10,736,032,
being a reduction of £303,422 for the coming
year, irrespective of other matters to which ,I
shall have to advert. The way this reduction
has been brought about is in the reduction of the personnel
of the navy and in the materiel of the navy, qualified by a
considerable increase for workmanship and wages in the
dockyards, There is also a small increase in the vote for
public works, and a considerable increase, I am sorry to say,
in the army vote, owing to the unhappy state of affairs in
New Zealand and China. I will first take the personnel,
and group together votes No. 1, refers ing to pay, No. 2, re-
ferring to victuals, and No. 12, relating to medicines, &c.
We propose this year a reduction of 500 seamen in the fleet.
1,500 coastguard men, and 2,000 boys—that is to say, we
propose to 'Ake together 71,950 men and boys, against 76,000
in the present year. The marines remain at 18,000 men.
There is a small reduction of 50 civilians connected with the
coastguard—old men, who are being gradually superan-
nuated, making the total reduction 4,050 men and boys. I
am quite aware that some hon. members are alarmed at
these reductions, and I am not at all prepared to say, look-
ing at the state of affairs, that it would be at all advisable
for this country to retrograde in her naval defences ; but so
far from our naval forces retrograding, I think I can show
they are making progress, notwithstanding these reductions.
There has been no reduction, in point of fact, as in page 101
will be seen the number of men maintained during every
month last year, and the reduction has been gradually going
on for several months. I will read to the committee a state-
ment which will show that the fears of the hon. baronet op-
poslte are unfounded. On the let of February last year we
had 11 line-of-battle ships in commission ; on the Ist of
February this year we had 10 line-of-battle ships. Last
year we had 4 armour-plated ships; on the let of February
this year we had 7 armour-plated ships. Last year we had
41 frigates ; this year we have 42 frigates. Last year we had
93 sloops and gun- vessels : this year we have 99, Making
a total of 153 sea-going ships this veer, against 151 last year
—only a small increase In number, but a great increase
in power by the armour-plated ships. We have, besides,
that a vast number of steam whips, station ships, floating
batteries, store ships, coastguard ships, troop ships, and
gunboats, the whole fleet amounting to 243, against 236 last
year. I think I may state that as a proof we have not re-
duced our fleet to the extent stupposed. Then how have we
been able to reduce our men? One reason is, we employ
armour-plated ships in lieu of line-of-battle ships. There is
another reason, and it is very interesting because it shows
what a great change is coming over the navy. In former
days no captain of a ship was allowed, except under most
urgent elecunaatances, to discharge an objectionable man.
h was supposed that, if officers were allowed to discharge
objectionable men, a premium was put on bad conduct,
and that the ships would be unmanageable. It is
very difficult to get rid of a bad man ; he
must be floggud over and over again ; but the
Admiralty has discovered it to be the best policy
to allow the captain to get rid of objectionable men, and
under that arrangement there has been going on a process
of weeding the fleet, which has been of immense advantage
to the navy. We were enabled to do this because the service
is opulent ; and that will account for the decrease of 1,500
men, The committee will expect me to give some esplana•
tion upon the reduction of the boys. (Hear, hear.) it is
within the last three or four years I came down to ask for
an increase of the number of boys, who are the nursery of
the Royal navy ; yet we propose this year to reduce the
number by 2,000. On the one hand, the officers complain
that these boys do not make good servants, and they have
asked the Admiralty to give them proper servants, the same
as were retained by officers in the army. That was a griev.
ante, and was one that was
perfectly just. On the other
hand, the second-class boys who come into the navy dislike,
as a rule, to do the duty of servants ; they wished to learn
their nautical duties, and find that waiting at a table is very

irksome indeed. The Admiralty, by a regulation which has
just come into operation, has determined to allow 700 or 800
servants to supply the place of 2,000 boys. This only ac-
counts for part of the reduction of the number of boys. We
propese, instead of giving ships second-class boys, there shall
be only one, and that a first-class, of boys on board a man-of-
war. We propose to keep up the training ships for second-
class boys, but, instead:of entering them at fifteen years and a
half, they will pass through a course of nautical education in-
stead of being servants. We calculate that with 2,000 boys
less we shall not altogether supply the vacancy that will fol-
low in the number of men who have risen from the ranks of
the boys. We have found that the vast number of boys we
have had in the navy has led to this—that the navy is almost
shut out from the merchant service. This is not desirable.
(Hear.) In our fleet we have 25,000 seamen ; and it is curious
that when we eliminate artificers, stokers, and marines, it
leaves only that number of actual blue jackets. The waste
of these men is about 12 per cent. ; and out of 28,000 a vast
proportion are continuous service men. We are going to
take this year 7,000 boys instead of 9,000; and, from the
statistics we have been able to gather up since we have had
this establishment, we find that 7,000 boys will supply
about 2,000 seamen annually. I have said the waste of sea-
men is 3,000. That leaves 1,000 to be supplied from other
sources, and we think there should be an opening for at
least that number eoming in from the merchant service. I
am net at all prepared to say we shall not come and ask for
more boys, but we believe 7,000 will keep up the navy to its
present number—yet, if we require more boys, I am sure
the house will grant our request. I will now state to the
committee the reason why we reduced 1,500 coastguard men.
We have paid off within the last two years 13,305 men.
These men had, in the first place, six weeks' leave. They
had then the choice of becoming continuous service men or
of leaving the service. They might go for a year in the
coastguard ships, or a year in the harbour ships, in
order that they might have a year's relaxation after a long
voyage. Now see what a curious creature a sailor is. Out
of the 13,305 men we have paid off, only 1,078 have volun-
teered for harbour ships and about 1,000 for the coastguard
ships, and the remainder took six weeks' leave and went to
sea again. Therefore, so far as the wants of the country
are concerned, the coastguard ships may be reduced to a
certain extent, and that is the reason we have reduced the
estimates that come under the same head as those 1,500
men. I should like to give the committee a proof of the
changes that have taken place within the last few years
with regard to the manning of ships ordered for service. In
a remarkable, comprehensive, and admirable speech from
my right hon. friend the member for Droitwich when First
Lord of the Admiralty, in moving the naval estimates in
the year 1859, he spoke of the difficulty they had in man-
ning their ships. The Renown took 172 days after she had
been commissioned before she could get to sea, and the
Marlborough 129 days; and it was generally six months
before ships were fit for sea after they were commissioned.
The right hon, baronet said these words—" Now I ask the
house whether the ingenuity of man could devise anything
more humiliating or more calculated to impress foreign na-
tions with the conviction of the decay of the naval power of
England than the fact of our ships of war remaining in port
four, five, or six months, altogether unable to obtain their
complement of seamen ?" These
*were the words of
the right hon. baronet in 1859. Let me show you how
things are in 1803. Last year, on April 14, we commis-
sioned the Ariadne, a heavy frigate, and she was ready on
May 17, or little more than a month. On April 27 we
commissioned the Royal Oak, a heavy amour-plated ship,
and she was ready for sea on June 5. The Liverpool
was ready in about a fortnight after being commissioned.
The Conqueror, a 90-gun ship was ready for sea in just
three weeks ; the Gibraltar, commissioned on the 12th of
September, was at sea on the 28th of September ; the Aurora
was commissioned on the 18th November, and was at sea
on,the 11th December. On the 17th January in this year,
we commissioned the Duncan, and she was ready on the
21st February ; the Hector, armour frigate, was ready in a
month; and the Prince Consort, heavy armour ship, com-
missioned on the 14th of January, was ready on the sth
Febrnary. So that scarcely a ship was more than a month
and that detention was not for want of men, but to give the
men an opportunity of getting their traps on board, and
making themselves comfortable before going to sea.
Admirable, however, as the organisation is now, I frankly
own that, with the engineers, who have just been put on
a better footing, we hope the new arrangements will
produce a better class of men for that service.
I admit the present is an exceptional time. There has
been a great demand for men all over the country ; trade is
flourishing, and every kind of skilled artisan is in demand,
and fetches high wages. Therefore our complaint of want
of artisans may be only temporary. The fact is we have no
organisation, and we want a corps of artificers for the fleet
similar to that which they have in the army. It is a quest••
Lion of pounds, shillings, and pence; but I am quite sure it
is absolutely necessary that our fleet, particularly in these
days of armour-plated ships, should be supplied with first-
rate artificers, of which, I am sorry to say, we have great
lack at present.—[Sir J. PA.KINGTON—You mean sea-going
artificers?]—Yes. We have in the ports and in ships fitting
out 2,510. We consider that to be rather below our figure.
The fact is a great many ships are on their way home, and
we shall bring that number no doubt up to about 3,000,
which is what we generally have ready to put on board
ship. I must take great pride in stating that the conduct
of our seamen is annually improving. A kind of education
is now given, and that, with better pay, and more cora rt
and convenience, has given them a higher social position.
In 1858 one-fifth of the seamen wore good conduct badges;
in the following year one-fourth ; and in every year there is
a larger number wearing these badges. Oae half of our
seamen make allotments to their families, and that is a
test of their respectability. There is one point upon which
I wish to address a few words to the committee with regard
to the condition of the seamen. As regards mortality
and general health, I do not think that there are any pub-
lic servants in the world can show better than the English
navy. But there is a class of disease, especially about our
home ports—(hear, hear)—which is so frightful, and the
loss we sustain is so great—(hear, hear)—that I do hope
the Government will be able to propose some measure
on the subject, (Hear, hear.) We subscribe largely to
female lock hospitals, and, when appealed to, we increase
our subscriptions, The naval votes show this ; but, Sir,
more is wanted. I honestly maintain, if you keep a mass
of young men together in these ports, you are bound to
protect them. I can say no more now. My hon, friend
the member for Bedford undertook some time ago to pre•
side over a committee, upon which several able gentlemen
were appointed. They made a report, but that is a re-
port I dare not lay me the table of the house. If any
hon. gentleman would like to see that report, I shall be
glad to show it. I can say no more on that painful subject,
but I thought it my duty to lay it before the committee.
Referring then to the Royal Naval Reserve, the noble
lord said that they were clearly to be taken into account
as an important portion of the defences of the country,
more particularly when we see that in a prospect of emer-
gency the men are ready to serve under the flag. 1 hold
in my hand a report on the seamen of the Royal Naval
Reserve, from Capt. Gardner, inspector of the Royal Naval
Reserve, dated Feb. 13, who said—" I consider it right, in
addition, to send in a report of the inspection of the Royal
Naval Reserve on board her Majesty's ship President, and
to call your attention to the following statement made to me
by Commander Mold, which is of se satisfactory a nature
with respect to the conduct of men who have been under
drill since July, 1862, During that time 4,258 men have
been drilled, out of that number only 53 have been punished
by fines, principally for being absent from drill and for get •
ting drunk, and only two for insubordination." I think
that speaks for itself, as showing what an orderly and re-
spectable body of seamen have entered the reserve. The
comptroller-general of the Coastguard, in his last minute to
the Admiralty, states that he had inspected them himself,
and that nothing could possibly be better than their gun
drill. That shows what a valuable body of men the reserve
is, and surely they must be taken into consideration when
forming the estimates. With regard to the officers, I am
glad to say that an order in council will, I trust, be issued
in a few days containing duo regulations for officers of the
Naval Reserve, giving them, under certain circumstances,
when they become perfect in drill, a reduction in the num-
ber of days of drill. I believe that one of the few complaints
made is against the constant return of drill. Passing now
from the vote for the Admiralty, No. 3, I will address my-
self to the scientific vote, No. 5. The right hon. gentleman
opposite will be glad to hear that the Government are going
to carry out a system which I hope will provide an efficient
school of naval architects. The difficulty we had was as
to the whereabouts of this school. If it were put into a
Government building, we thought it would look too much
like a Government school, and that it would be consi-
dered by the public as too much under the power of the
Admiralty. What we felt was, that, if we could ensure
proper instruction for our own students, we should gladly
see all the private trade, and the public generally, take
up this school as a good national institution. The way we
set about it was this: Lord Granville, who is at the head
of the Science and Art Department at South Kensington,
immediately took great interest in it, He desired Mr. Cole
to communicate with the Admiralty, and immediately set
at our disposal proper apartments, combining model and
class rooms, and, in short, everything we desired to have.
In consultation with Mr, Woolley, the Government inspec-
tor of schools, and Nix.. Cole, it was determined that there
should be constructors and lecturers on chemistry and
physical science and the properties of all the materials used
in shipbuilding—such as wood, iron, copper; that during
the winter months they should be located at South Ken-
sington, where they could undergo all this theoretical edu-
cation ; and that, during the summer, they should attend
the dockyards under such instructors as might be deter-
mined upon, and that Government students should be upon
the same terms and footing as pupils of private establish-
ments. All that we required was a guarantee that our own
pupils shall be instructed in such matters as we thought
judicious for her Majesty's service, and that private pupils
should undergo such a course as the officers of Science and
Art may determine. I propose now to pass over to the greatest
votes of all. Votes 8,9, and 10 are our great shipbuilding
votes. Perhaps I may say generally that in the- vote for the
storekeeper's department there is a reduction of £169,951,
which is due to our being now in a satisfactory position as
regards all our principal naval stores. Then again in the
second section, the comptroller's vote, there is a reduction
of £195,137. That reduction is owing to the fact that we
are making very great progress in the iron armour-plated

ships which ws are building by contract, and also in our
steam engines. There is a new item in the vote for which
I must ask the sanction of the committee. We propose to
build six gunboats on the twin screw principle. They
are to be of 700 tons, and to carry two powerful guns.
They will be armour-plated to the water-line, and have a
limited space on the upper deck to carry these guns.
e expect in this way a very handy class of vessels for
rivers, at a light draught of water. For this purpose we
shall ask for £64,000 this year, leaving the rest—the whole
cost being £120,000. That Is the only new thing we pro-
pose to do by way of shipbuilding by contract during the
coming year. Adverting now to the increase of £162,400 in
vote 8, for workmanship, I wish to state why I ask you to
agree to that vote. I may state here that the number of our
armoured ships built and building are 25, exclusive of the
gunboats to which I have adverted. Of these there are
seven in commission, six that can be ready by the middle of
this year, and six more that can be ready by the end of the
year, the remaining six, which will be ready in the course
of next year, making up the 25 armour ships. This time
last year we had 21, showing that we have added to the
navy four armour ships during the year. What a marvellous
creation it is that, is the course of five years, we should
have completed 21 of these armour ships. I will now deal
with vote 8, which has reference to the workmanship in the
dockyards, to show the grounds on which I ask this in-
c-ease. I will make a comparison between what we have
done during the past year and what we propose to do in the
next year. I will state a return of the rates and tonnage of
armour ships which have been built between April 1 and
Dec. 31, 1863. The armour ships equal 5,807 tons, the
non-armour ships, 683 tons. Now, what we propose to do
in the coming year is t 3 build of armour ships 13,604
tons, and of non armour ships 4,404 tons. We have in
our dockyards seven armour ships under construction,
and we propose to keep our dockyards very much more
active in the way of construction than during the past
year. With regard to non-armour ships, we are going
to build a new class of vessels, capable of doing such ser-
vice to their owners as the Alabama. We are desirous of
building such vessels of great speed for the purpose of
cruising, to replace the smaller vessels. The next subject
fur which we shall require an increased vote is for the re-
pairs and refitting of vessels. I wish to state that the con-
dition of our non-armour ships is not so satisfactory as I
could wish. The activity in the production of armour-
plated ships has prevented us keeping up our repairs as
they ought to be. In the next year we expect to commis-
sion sixty-four ships, which means that the sixty-four ships
they will relieve must come into our hands for thorough re-
pair. Our ordinary reliefs amount to fitty-five ships, against
the sixty-four this year. There is another increase arising
from the demand for drill ships. I am glad of this
demand, because it shows our reserves are in a healthy
state, but it all represents a large amount of labour in
the dockyards. There is another item of expense arising
from our being in a state of transition with regard to
steam engines and boilers, Every day there are new in-
ventions, such as super-heating, surface-condensation,
diminished consumption of fuel, and a variety of matters
which will tend ultimately to give greater speed to our ships
with economy of fuel, but in the meantime we have to alter
the engines at great expense, and these things are perpe-
tually getting out of order. This represents an annual
proportionate increase in the vote. There has also been an
increase of 20 per cent, in the outlay for the comfort and
convenience of officers and seamen, for such items as ven-
tilation, cabins, furniture, and other charges, which repre-
sent a large increase it the work of the dockyards. Hon.
gentlemen suppose that, because we have now armour-
plated ships, we need not keep such large fleets at
sea. That does not enable us to reduce our squadrons a
bit. This return shows that out of the foreign squadrons
of 156 ships not less than 113 were detached single
ships. Now, it would be impossible to have for such ser-
vice 119 armour-plated ships ; so that you must have a large
number of small vessels. That is why you require to keep
up your dockyards and your large stores of wood, copper,
and other things. When gentlemen say, " Build iron ships;
they will never get out of repair," I cannot resist giving
you the case of an iron sh:p—not that I consider it conclu-
eive, but simply to show that there are great disadvantages
to contend with in iron eh ps—the Megaera, one of our iron
transports, which had only been seven months out of docks,
and continually making voyages. They suddenly found
that they could get no steam. They were rendered per-
fectly helpless. If a man of war hod been after her, she
would have been taken to a certainty. It was found that
this had been caused by her supply pipes getting choked
up by shell-fish, so that they could get no steam. That is
one of the illustrations of the difficulties of iron ships, I
should like to ask the hon. member for Bireenheae (Mr.
Laird) whether the " 290," which his son built, could have
cruised as she has done, and captured the vast number of
vessels she has, if she had been an iron ship. 'Why, she
must have been in dock h-lf a dozen times. I wish to show
the progress which this country has made in constructing
armour-plated ships from the Warrior to the Bellerophon,
which is now building. The Bellerophon is a most remark-
able vessel, and this is whet it is expected she will do : She
is of 4,200 tons burden, against 6,000 tons of the Warrior,
and she will carry plates 6 inches of iron in thickness along
her entire length, and one inch and a half of steel ; and she
will throw a broadside o: three-quarters of a ton of iron
and steel. During the last foul or five years the Govern-
ment were forced to proceed, and they had no time to see
whether one class of ships would answer better than ano- I
ther. Within that period the exertions of the French dock-
y trds were enormous, and we were induced to order the
construction of the Black Prince. But it occurred to us
that such vessels had one great defect—they were vary well
adapted to catch other ships, but they were useless in a
ineleC, because they could not turn quickly enough. It was
therefore determined to build the Resistance and the De-
fence, which were of about 4,000 tons burden. They were
certainly smaller, cheaper, and handier than the Black
Prince; but then, unfortunately, they had much less speed,
Well, you cannot have everything. And now it occurred
to us that all these vessels possessed one defect, and that
was the very limited area for fighting, During all this time
it should be borne in mind, we had only to contend against
the 68-pounder and 110-pounder Armstrong gun, and all
the world now knows that the pivot of the whole thing is
the guns. At that time it was considered that a vessel
would be impregnable for all practical purposes if she could
withstand the 6S-pound and 110-pound Armstrong guns ;
for though Mr. Whitworth had shown the marvellous
penetrating power of his gun, yet we had no
gun to equal the 68 •pounder and 110-pounder guns.
Atter the Hector and the Valiant had been built, the Go-
vernment thought the time had come when we ought to
have some check upon contractors, and that we ought to
construct one of these armour plated ships in one of our own
yards. Chatham dock was accordingly fixed upon, and I
think all will concur that that was a very wise step on the
part of the Government. The Achilles was accordingly laid
down at Chatham. At this time it became necessary that
we should ascertain what was the best quality of iron, and
that we should have a series of experiments as regards that
metal, and a committee was therefore appointed by the Ad-
miralty, and requested to inquire fully and report upon the
matter. One of the first things which the committee proposed
was that we should build with thicker plates and less backing,
by which means we should get greater strength and other ad-
vantages. The Government having considered the whole
question said it was necessary that we should have a perfect
man-of-war, combining the highest possible speed with the
greatest fighting power, and armour-plated throughout.
Three ships were consequently ordered to be armed with
51-inch plates, as the committee had recommended. Now,
it is perfectly true that the 52-inch plates did not succeed,
but at that time our knowledge of the manufacture of plates
was more limited than it is now. About the same time the
house urged upon us that it was absolutely necessary that
we should go on building ships. We then had five line-of-
battle ships in course of construction, and we considered
they could be quickly completed, so it was resolved to build
five more—the Royal Oak, the Prince Consort, the Cale-
donian, the Royal Albert, and the Asia. I do not believe
any of our ships are impenetrable against the guns which
have since been invented, but they were the best we
could build at that time. One great defect of the armour
plated ships was their enormous size, and to remedy this
drawback Captain Coles undertook to construct a cupola
ship of 2,500 tons, and war accordingly ordered by the Ad •
miralty to construct such eessel. It was important to note
this took place before we received intelligence of the con-
test between the Monitor and the Merrimac. The Royal
willl h abvee
blamed
doubtm e d f
for
rthat t duringflnish.
finish-
ing Sovereignthat
,y
ews
saesl . cut down,hiroaa:teYdver, is not due to any fault of
the this
A discussion
Admiralty,
mrety the Admiralty
That,dme
tla circumstance that there have
been great difficulties in vetting ready the plates and the
component parts of the turrets. For it was Captain
Coles's earnest desire to alter and improve his vessels
as he went along. (Herr, hear.) I think it only fair
that these facts should be stated, but I do not blame
Capt, Coles. Oa the coatrary, I think we ought to get
the very best article he cae produce. This year Mr. Reed
came to the Admiralty and proposed to build a vessel much
smaller, handier, cheaper, and safer, and completely armour
plated. He said our first ooject should be to make the water
line safe, even at the expense of some fighting qualities.
(Hear, hear.) Accordingly he c nestructed two ships, and I
can assure the committee we have every reason to be satis-
fied with them, I will now inform the house what the Go-
vernment has done since the discussions of last year. First
we commenced two wooden ships, the Lord Clyde and the
Lord Warden, which will have considerable speed and a
heavy battery. They are iron plated throughout, and they
have this advantage—they have not only 41 inch plates,
but also an inch and a half inside the backing of the plates,
thus giving them superior qualities for resisting
shot and shell. Then there is a small line.of-
battle ship, the Zealous built from Mr. Reed's principle.
There is also one which, if it succeeds, will ba one of the
most remarkable ships in our navy : it is called the
Pallas-
The vessel is of a very remarkable form, adopted from the
French. She will be the fastest ship in the navy, and she
carries a very limited battery. Then there is the Bellero-
phon, which, while throwing the heaviest broadside of anyr
ship we shall have, will at the same time have speed nearly
areeaY
if not quite equal to the Pallas. Altogether, there
twenty-five ships building. And now I mast advert
the question of guns, for that is the pivot on
with
the
whole question tunas. Now, in dealing guns.
it is important that we should wholly separate ships
dtcelit
to
from forts, because in ships we are limited to weights,

both as to armour plating and guns. At the present time
we have come to the conclusion that 61 tons is the utmost
limit of each gun which a ship can carry in her broad-
side. A communication on the subject took place
between Mr. Whitworth and the Duke Of Somerset, which
resulted in the latter infotthing the late lamented Lord Her-
bert that he required a smooth-bored On, abetit 61 tons, to
carry from 25 to 331bs. of powder and a 100 lb. projectile. A
gun was accordingly prepared 61 to 61 toes in weight, carry-
ing a spherical projectile of 1001bs weight and 3016101 f,V,I"
der. That gun was very successful, Several of those guns
have been ordered, and we expect that they will all be re-
ceived by July next. But much about the same time the
Admiralty thought that they ought also to have rifled guns,
limited, however, to the same weight, and accordingly a gun
called the "Lord Frederick" has been ordered, and is about
to have a trial. In addition, such has been the success of the
300 pounder gun—which, in fact, is a 1501 b smooth bore
gun—that we have placed four of theta on board the Mino-
taur ; ten on board the Bellerophon ; five on board the
Royal Saxon ; and four on the Prince Albert. As to the
Bellerophon target, it has been fired at by Mr. Whitworth
with a 7-inch gun--at what distance lam not quite certain
—but as yet the Bellerophon remains a virgin target. In
our experiments we have consumed 117 targets and five or
six target-ships ; that is a proof that such experiments can-
not be made except at a great cost; but it also proves how
serious has been the attention which the Admiralty have
devoted to the production of the best ships and, upon
the whole, I may state we have been very successful. (Hear,
hear.) I now pass to vote 11, which relates to docks and
basins. The vote shows a considerable increase. We are
building large works at Chatham, and we propose to make
a great basin at Portsmouth, very similar to the one which
has been enlarged at Chatham ; but this is so important a
work that I shall think it right to move for a select com-
mittee to report upon the subject. At the same time,
where the dockyards can be reduced, that it is to bo done.
For example, it is no longer considered necessary to main-
tain a dock at Deal, and the same is to be said of the dock
at Leith. And likewise it is proposed to do away with the
dock at Deptford, when the works at Chatham are finished.
I will not go Into any particulars with respect to the dock at
Malta, as we are to have a special discussion on the matter,
but when that discussion comes on I shall be perfectly ready
to defend the course of the Government. The noble lord
then explained that he did not state on a former evening, as
he had been in one quarter reported to have done, that the
Royal Oak and the Resistance had actually been docked
at Malta. He of course knew quite well that those ships
had been only just ordered out, and therefore that they
could not want repairs. What he stated was that those
ships could be docked at Malta. In conclusion, the noble
lord stated that it was with great satisfaction he was able
to announce that there would be an increase in the rate on
account of the pay of officers, in consequence of a proposal
to improve the pay of all ranks of officers in the navy, in-
cluding the petty officers. (Cheers )
On the first vote of £2,874,647, on account of 71,950
seamen and marines.

Sir J. PAKINGTON expressed his astonishment that
in the present state of affairs on the Continent and in Ame-
rica the Government should have thought it desirable to
propose a reduction of 4,050 men and boys. Any diminu-
tion of force, whether in navy or army, was calculated to
impress on the great Powers the belief, already too general,
that the louder we talked the less disposed were we to act.
There was obvious danger of this course producing a pain-
ful sentiment on both sides the Atlantic, and he could not
refrain, therefore, from doubting whether the present was
the moment which the Government ought to have chosen
to propose any reduction of our naval and military resources.
He concurred in the policy of maintaining the Naval Re-
serve, and of drawing on the mercantile marina when ne-
cessary ; but no mistake could be greater than that of re-
placing these boys, who were likely to become the most
valuable seamen in the fleet, by any accidental addition
that might be derived from the mercantile service. Nothing
in the statement of the noble lord had gratified him more
than the announcement that 2,510 men and boys were held
in reserve in any ships that might require to be manned.
He also expressed his unqualified satisfaction at the deci-
sion of the Admiralty to ask a vote of £2,000 for the esta-
blishment of a school of naval architecture, but charged the
department of the Government with want of caution in
having covered the Minotaur, and Agincourt, and the
Northumberland—the most costly ships that has ever
been added to the navy—with armour which had turned
out defective and inferior.
Sir M. PETO criticised the administration of naval
affairs, and observed that the one great want in the depart-
ment was a master miad.

Mr. LAIRD pointed out the necessity of providing ade-
quate dock and basin accommodation for large steam ships.
both at home and in some of the colonies.

Captain BERKELEY regarded the reduction in the
number of men and boys as merely nominal, for the number
to be borne on the books would b 3 as large as ever.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE disapproved of the contem-
plated reduction, and urged that temporary barracks should
be erected at the various ports whilst permanent naval bar-
racks were being constructed.

Captain TALBOT concurred with Mr. Laird in opinion
that the importance of increasing the dock and basin ac-
commodation could not be over estimated. At present it
was utterly insufficient to meet the demands that must arise
in the event of a war.

Mr. STANSFELD said the reason that a vote of only
£27,000 was taken for the Chatham works was that no more
than that sum could be usefully expended on the present
works. He was quite aware that at the first blush it might
seem extraordinary that one of the first results of recent
dockyard investigation should tie an increase on dockyard
expenditure. But at that late period of the evening it was
impossible to enter upon the requisite explanations.
Mr. LINDSAY said that under these circumstances he
would move that the committee should report progress. He
thought they should hear these explanations before the
general discussion on the estimates was closed.
Lord PALMERSTON trusted that the house would vote
the number of men required for the navy. Any discussion
on dockyard expenditure could be taken on subsequent
votes.

After a few words from Mr. LINDSAY and Sir J, HAY
the committee divided, when there wero—
For repo' ting progress
Against ....
Majority
The result was received with some cheering on the Con-
servative benches.

The chairman then, reported progress and the house
resumed.

Leave was given to Mr. BLAKE to bring in a bill to
amend the law relating to grand juries in Ireland; also to
Mr. ADDERLEY a bill to consolidate the Penal Servitude
Acts for England and Scotland.

Several returns were ordered, and the house adjourned at
ten minutes past one o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

DEFEAT OF THE GOVERNMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEB. 25.
NAVY ESTIMATES.

In committee of supply, motion made and question pro-
posed, " That 71,950 men and boys be employed for the
sea and coastguard services for the year ending on the
31st day of March, 1865, including 18,000 royal marines."
Whereupon motion made and question put, " That the
Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."
The committee divided—Ayes, 31; Noes, 28.

AYES —3l.
Adderley, C. B. Gore, J. R. 0. Naas, Lord
Bar ttelot, Col. Grogan, Sir E. Peto, Sir M.
Berkeley*, C. Hamilton, I. T. Smith, Augustus
Blake, J. A. Hennessy, J. P. Somes, Joseph
Bridges, Sir B. Heygate, W. U. Talbot, Hon. W. C.
Cargill, W. Laird, J. Verner, E. W.
Dalglish, Robert Lawson, W. Yorke, J. R.
Dickson, Col. Leader, N.
Dunne, Col. Lewis, Harvey TELLERS.
Elphinstone, Sir J. Longfleld, Robert
Fermoy, Lord Macdonogh, F. ' Lindsay, W. S.
George, John Maxwell, Col. Hay, Sir J.

NOES —2B.
Berkeley, H. Headlam, Thos. E. Ponsonby, A.
Bruce, H. A. Heathcote, Sir W. Russell, Sir Wm.
Cardwell, Rt. fin. E. Herbert, H. A. Stansfeld, J.
Colthurst, Sir G. Kingscote, Col. Villiers, Rt. Hon. C.
Dodson, John G. Lygon, Hon. F. Walpole, S. ii.
Daft', it. Martin, J. White, L.
Evans, T. W. O'Conor Don, The
Gavin, Major O'Hagan, T. TELLERS.
Gladstone, W. E. Paget, Lord C. E.
Grey, Sir G. Palmerston, Visct. Brand, H. B.
Hartington,Marqu:s Peel, F. Dunbar, Sir Wm.

ERRATUM.—In the division on Tuesday, on the steam
rams at Birkenhead, the name of Lord A. Hervey should
have appeared among the Noes, instead of that of Mr. 8.. B.
Harvey, the latter hon. member having voted with the
Ayes.

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