The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-26 00:00:00

THE SIN,

ward by Lord Cottenham, as Chancel lor,
ceeded no further than to Committee, year two
Las
e on the
measures were introduced into the oth,
jr
11°eastwo
subject, and it was the amalgamation o f thesbe
whicht pro- t
mea-
sures which formed the basis of the Bill now
Lordship. This measure was not st 3
a°llltPo make as
could have wished it, but he was an 2 dons
Bill was
hie ct of the
onward a step as possible. The o
.i
efo,r e
as theirh e
enfranchise, and
.te enable lords to compel tenants.
rich this enabling
he considered that the manner
within 'et rdship upon either
ettnants to compel lords, with certain.' modifications; modifications; and
win effected would not operate
lord or tenant. it was scarcely pos-
sible from the
p)zrcertainly expedient to ree-
sibTlehteoLoOveßrrDatCeHtbAeNSELLOt :i
copyhold system, and
far
the rights of property. His
trenching
too,earnedmuch
Friend
re-
medy thette evils sobf rites this could be done without.
WM quite justified in the Noble and and i dvanced against heriots. $© himself
was SO impressed with them that
jections ho heed
(the Lord Chatle
copyhold estate, in order to prevent
upon purchasinge,a.
other favourable chattel from being,
his best horse eallor)
death,eteken from his representative by the
had taken the estate in the name of a trustee.
laughter.) As to the impediment thrown
.--(Great
hold system in the way of building, it
aloftredr, hhies
by tli© copy
was, no doubt, in very many cases a great evil,
but there were instaccee, such as the precise case given
in illustration by .his Noble and Learned Friend, where
it operated advantageously for the public in preventing
the aggregation of hones in otherwise overbuilt locali-
ties.
He agreed that it W.,'3 most desirable to assist in
carrying into execution aeitv
measure that would lead to
enfranchisement with all due ;peed, and without bearing
hardly upon the rights of tl2‘o
parties interested; but,
st of this tenure, he denied
as to the general inconvenienc
generally speaking, that there i 7 as that complication in
copyhold titles that rendered it necessary upon that
ground to pass this Bill. He
fisN, erted that copyhold
titles were more simple than freak.).
to objection; and, as regarded sma Ile?
id It
tenements,itlesad n
less
title was preferred, and well it might it had the
be; .
benefit of a general register, free from
veniences that would attach to a register
open
fOr
those incon-
eei
a!lands of
other tenure, inasmuch as it was local, acce.ble t and.
simple, and never could be overloaded with 3 iegrteat,
quantity of matter. It was, moreover, the sioa:l- str°'
all tenures, and for small fees a tenant might trill-18'er
his copyhold tenement. His Yoble Friend said th ere
must be two deeds, but that was not necessary-
one only was required. There were two documents,
no doubt; but that was no objeotion, for the party did
not pay more than he would have to pay if the pro-
perty were freehold. As regarded heriots and arbi-
trary fines, ho thought they could not too much facilitate
the abolition of the one, and the reduction to a fair
standard of the other; and any measure that would
carry into effect more beneficially the law as it a pre-
sent steed would meet with his strangest support. He
would rather that any burdens which attached to any
property should attach in the tenant's lifetime, so that it
might descend to his children free from them. But, as
regarded the mode pointed cut by this Bill for enfran-
,chisement, he did not hesitate to say that in many cases
•the expense altogether would bo more than the value of
the property enfranchised. The Bi 11, moreover, placed
'the landlord and tenant in a elite •of opposition. The
lord might compel the tenant to accept enfranchisement;
the tenant might compel the lord to grant it; and the
‘consequence would be, that each -would be watching
for the proper moment to take advantage of
the other. At the present time enfranchisement
-was going on more rapidly th, in many of their
Lordships would suppose. In :bad times enfran-
nhisemeut almost ceased; in gooit times it went on
rapidly. From a measure of this sort, however, the
evils he had just mentioned were iris eparable, but they
would not attach to a general enactment which would
compel enfranchisement ; and cert.: inly, if he had to
choose between the two, he should 'choose the measure
that was altogether compulsory. eleeeain, at present the
Lord had the right of property in mines under a copy-
hold, but he could not dig the land te , get at those mines.
_Now, this Bill provided that the Lo id should retain all
the mines to which he was entitled; but it did not do
what euebt to be done, namely, while it transferred the
lands freehold to the ccpyholder, provide for the lord
being able to break the soil and to ge t at the mines. He
did not, however, oppose the Bill, but he rose to state
'what difficulties occurred to him up on the subject. It
ought not to pass without full coresideration—(llear,
hear)—and he should propose that it should be referred
to a Select Committee, as he was confident that it ought
to be considered clause by clause witel great deliberation,
in order that they might know on wt at they were legis-
lating. This he would venture to say, t hat having read this
Bill, he should be wholly incapable of saying at that
moment that the Bill as at present fi 'aimed could safely
pass. The great object was to do ji t5tlCO to all parties.
He did not make this suggestion wit h any view to this
Bill not being passed this session. But, even if that
were the result, if the time occupied in its being deli-
berately considered should prevent it, ho should think
that that was in no respect to be compared with hasty
legislation breaking in upon the righti; of property.
Lord CAMPBELL had anticipated that before this
session closed this Bill would have bee ome the law of the
land; but the speech of his Noble wad Learned Friend
on the woolsack was fatal to the measure. It was
echoed by the Lord Privy Seal, and he was afraid it was
inwardly approved of by the rest of her Majesty's
Ministers. A Noble Lord had withdrawn a motion of
which he had given notice that this Bill should be re-
ferred to a Select Committee, and ho (Lord Campbell)
therefore was not only grieved, bat surprised, at the
course taken by his Noble and Learned Friend, espe-
cially as in the other House of Parliament this Bill
had had the support of the Government; and the organ
of the Government had undertaken tistat the support of
the Government should be given to the measure as it
now stood. If the Bill would proeuce evil to copy-
holders, then the proper course fur his Noble and
Learned Friend to have taken was to move that it be
read a second time that day three months; and ho
thought his Noble and Learned Friend would have done
better if he had taken that ceurse than by not objecting
to the second reading, but recommit!) ding that the Bill
should be referred to a Select Committee. He had
thought that this Bill would have been one of the mea-
sures of reform that were to have refleseted credit on the
present Government. He had most sincerely hoped it
would have been one of the topics on which they might
have gone to the country to show how beneficent their
Administration was by its legal influence. Their Lord-
ships must recollect that in each manor there was a par-
ticular code of laws, by which the copyholdere of such
manor were governed as to their tenancies. In some the
custom was that the eldest son should succeed to the
father; is others the custom was that of gavelkind, in
which all the sons succeedel equally; and in some
the custom of borough English prevailed, by which
the youngest son succeeded, to the exclusion of the
eldest. The Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack
had pointed out the very great advantage to the copy.
holder from his being registered and from the registra-
tion being simple; but he (Lord Campbell) trusted that
before another year passed the Government would esta-
blish another claim to the gratitude of the country for
Learnedeeds.
L Accordingord oon the
o thewee I principlessa k,
legald reform, by establishing a general registration of
perpetuated, for it was idle to suppose
enfranehisemen3e or
tll i s ottfen. natuthreei
tNwwoabosluelt
world be
andbbee
abolished before many generations many centuries
merely by voluntary
Learned Friend complained that the Bill His Noble and
tos
acdteei notenfranchise
in
et
13 goise
shapefar
enough, and that he should prefer t
giving a compulsory power at etc:
which deshouldte,
bu tbehe
floorge;sadtohave
copyholds. Ho (Liotridt
weearineppb:ipib
such a moaeufe,
hard-
ships and inconveniences arising therefrom,
him recoil from it. With respect to the present Bill, how-
ever, though it might produce in a fcw instances a little
hardship, is would on the other hand afford very great
relief, and in his belief it would prove most beneficial
both to the lord and to the tenant. The Bill had only
a compulsory operation in the two cases of descent and
alienation, and in consequence of that provision it was
his opinion that the measure would not only offset to
evil, but produce much benefit. If afterwards it should
be found that there existed remnants of copyhold which
it would be disadvantageous to maintain, a general
sweeping measure of a compulsory nature might then be
introduced to deal with them. At present he was not
prepared for a measure so stringent, and he should give
to the second reading of the Bill now before the House
his most cordial support.
The Duke of CLEVELAND confessed that his
opinion had always beers that strata such measure es
the present was absolutely necessary. The old feudal
system connected with the copyhold tenure ought for
various reasons to be got rid of; es it tended to a
great number of endless disputes, hearthurcings, and
bickerings. The different customs in different manors
eerettituted a great evil, and, with respect
to tniuerale, ie two counts' s in which he had copyhold
property—Durham and Stafthrd—the customs differed
'utiterielly. Another serious evil arising out of the copy-
hold. te. rithie was that it prevented the making of improve-
powurzit Ho _ believed that withont some clmpulsory
the
„it be in-p05.904e to carry out a measure fbr
Lc,rd .G.'his.tnent of capyholds.
pciiiione!iortgre.sUM.ONT said he could not oppose the pro-
icn of a
hgc,..lnt, Irt.eneing - the fill to a Committee up stairs,
seiriehtt,ht it Wa3 in a state reqtering tee revi-
vern,motit we'terpoeretaittee, but he trusted that the Go-
the stact,,raictentir`ly
such a terns neminate such a Committee with
ay ughseatt enable it to be passed in the pre-
many grievances in Tee Duke of BuceLT,
Sill
..1011 mdmitted that there were
tog weer the present Bitfi Feetehold tenure, but in, look-
Ttr
onlywes more likely to eutfer
visions the smaller
cod he thought that under its pro-
herdehip than the lord.
of defeating tei,
tthhee
thoughtl
ar)
ir Pot:h4gat propertyßi liste
nand
gi tending
notto
to 1.1
for one 'Nook, cot consent toBE-c
tho Bill was to refentetitoway of dealing wish
a siert Committee, though he
,21:112.astire. He certainly
a reference merely for
great alterations in
brought forward by
by the Eebxeencus;toinve.,
CensinitsieneesPP;prractic'elly
irate gembers of Parliament, e
Government.
.A.fiEp a few words from. Lord Poteggl,
Lord CIZAN'SVORTII expressed
ilia
e
Bartm that it should not hecome la „ 016
the Bill to a Select
thought the result
would be otherwise he shorn' If tie
at
at the Hill going before es his e -
wish was that the ;measure should become ipw i .ardent
perfect state nossikie..—(Hear, hear,)(Hear, n the most
The Bill we; then reed a second time.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, moved that the Bill be
sent to a Select Committe3,--the Committee to be eamtd
on Thurcduy text. As his Noble and Learned Friend
had r'xprcesed acme alarm lest the effhet of Rending the
raeasare to a Select Committee would t:4l to prevent its
pessing dining the present sestion, he hoped ho Would
give him credit for stating that ho bed no such object
—(lan'', hear)--and on the parr of her i'lljesty,3
Government ha might state that they bad no such ob-
ject, but that they would go into the Committee with the

determination to give the measure their best attention,
and to render their honest assistance in carrying it into
effeet,—(Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL was, generally speaking, favour-
able to Bills of this nature being sent to a Select Com-
mittee; but, under all the circumstances of the case, to
send the present measure to a Committee would, he
feared, prove a delusion. The state of the session, and
various other considerations, induced him to believe
that the effect would be to give the measure its quietus.
The Bill was then ordered to be referred to a Select
Committee.
SCHOOL SITES ACTS FXTENSION BILL.
Oa the motion of the Bishop of OXFORD, this
Bill was read a second time pro Jormii, on the under-
standing that the principle should be discussed at a fu-
ture stage.
The Property of Lunatics Bill, the Stamp Duties
(Irt,land) Bill, the Apprehension of Deserters from
Foreign Ships Bill, and the Turnpike Roads (Ireland)
Bill, wee respectively read a second time.
The piasters in Chancery Abolition Bill, the Im-
provement of Jurisdiction in Equity Bill, and the
inuance Bill went through Committee.
Property-tax Con:
Their Lordships adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 25.
(Continued from our AfternoOn Edition of yesterday.)
MA YNOOTIE COLLEGE ADJOURNED DE
BATE. .

On the order of the day for the resumption of the ad-
journed debate,
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY rose for the purpose of op-
posing the motion of the Hon. Member for North War-
wickshire, but it must not be supposed that he was
opposed to inquiry, for ho was of opinion that the result
of the most stringent inquiry would redound to the credit
of the Maynooth College.—(Hear.) The conclusion of
such inquiry, he believed, would satisfy every impartial
person that Maynooth College was an institution which
had answered the purpose for which it was intended,
and in which the soundest moral doctrines and the
strictest loyalty were taught.—(Hear, hear.) Why,
then, he might be asked, do you oppose the motion?—
(Hear, hear.) He would tell them. The inquiry was
proposed in a mean spirit of retaliation upon the Roman
Catholic body, and it was not brought Nrward in good
faith.—(Hear, hear.) At first the motion was
absolutely against the grant to Maynooth, and so the
notice of motion remained on the votes down to
the end of February, when an additional notice of mo-
tion for an inquiry was placed upon the paper, and the
orevions notice was still allowed to remain standing.—
Clear, hear.) But shortly after this period her Ma-
jesey's present advisers came into office, and as, no doubt,
the eeriginal motion was discovered to be a difficulty in
their ray, the notice of motion for the absolute discon-
ttnuance of the grant to Maynooth was expunged from
the votes.—(Hear, hear.) So fine then, for the
hest. Now for the second. What necessity
was Were for it? He insisted that there was
none, because some few years ago a commission was ap-
pointed by the Crown to examine into the doctrines
in establishing not only the roundness,
taught in Ma Ynooth, and that investigation ended, as all
()there woulddidde
but the validity aid scrupulous morality of the princi-
ples taught and inctilcated in the minds of the students
at Maynooth.—(Hear;
hear.) All the charges which
had previously been mit'de against the college were
thoroughly refuted, and the
insinuation that altramon-
tane views were entertained by its professors
was denied in the report prepared by the
Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) Where, then, would be
the benefit of instituting a second inquiry? If the mo-
tion was intended to put the House in possession of more
information upon the subject he could assure the 'louse
that no more information could be obtained thin the re-
port contained, and all, therefore, that they should do, if
that was the object of the motion, was to order the re-
port to be reprinted.—(Bear, hear.) But, admitting that
without any motion of the sort, for the Lord-
tani:uthteenr inquiryantnot was necessary, the inquiry could be had
only possessed the power of appointing
an annual visitation, but also, if he so thought fit, to re-
new the Commission, which could sift the subject far
more efficiently than a Committee of this House.—(Hear,
hear.) The visitation had taken place every year since
the existence of the grant, and if any of these abuses did
exist in the college which bad been charged against it,
they would long ago have been brought to light.—(Hear,
hear.) He complained of tho spirit and manner in
which this motion was made. A Commission was
sitting and examining into the abuses of the Eagliah
Universities, but in the appointment of that Commission
there had been no desire to prejudge ,the question,
as was manifested in this instance.—(Hear.) How
could the lion. Member for North Warwickshire, as a
strong and conscientious Protestant, conduct an impartial
inquiry into the doctrines and religious principles
taught in Maynooth? But setting that objection aside,
could this inquiry be proposed in good faith, when it
was clear that they had almost attained the end of a
moribund Parliament ?—(Hear, hear.) Appoint the
Committee, and what could it do? Why, nothing, but
simply meet once and adjourn, and then the dissolution
would suddenly bring their labours to a close.—(Hear.)
Permit him, however, to ask the question, what grounds
had been urged in favour of the inquiry? None at all.
Every argument which had been brought forward was not
in favour of inquiry, but against the grant, because the
Roman Catholic; religion was the ruling principle of the
college.—(Hear, hear.) It should be remembered that
the object of the Legislature in assisting the college was
to promote the domestic religion of the people of Ire-
land, and he was prepared to prove that the college
authorities had in no way departed from the original
purposes of the institution.—(Hear, hear.) He con-
tended that Maynooth had nothing to do with the ultra-
montane teaching now prevalent in Ireland. Did they
suppose that if Sir Robert Peel, when he proposed to
increase the grant to Maynooth had found that the
teaching practised at the college, was such as it was
described to be, be would not have asked a commission
of irquiry, and been guided by the result? Sir Robert
Peel was slow in approaching reform, but when he did
effect any reform, it was always of the most searching
and comprehensive character;yet, with all his caution,he
had never seen anything to condemn or complain of in
tha system of education pursued at Maynooth. The cur-
riculum at Maynooth extended over eight years, and that
period elapsed from the time the young man entered
until he went forth to the world an ordained priest.
Now the permanent grant was made in 1845, but it did
not come into operation until 1846, so that six years had
elapsed since the benefits of the grant had been enjoyed
at Itlaynooth. Therefore, he would undertake to say
that not a single Roman Catholic priest, educated at
Maynooth since the grant was made, had participated
in any public demonstration in Ireland. Was it a logi-
cal conclusion, then, to say that such was the system of
education pursued at Maynooth, and such the evil effects
arising from it, that an inquiry was absolutely
necessary? Ho thought he was bound to make
the inquiry whether, if it was proved before
the Committee that the system of education had
never been altered and was free from the objections that
had been urged, those who supported the Hon. Member
for Warwickshire would be prepared to uphold the
grant? When insurrection was rife in Ireland who was
it that stood between the people and bloodshed but the
Roman Catholic priests? He met with a positive denial
the assertion that the education at Maynooth encouraged
immorality, and shook the allegiance of those under
its influence. One of the moat illogical reasons for
doing away with the grant, wa.s advanced by the Home
Secretary, who said the College of Maynooth was
once poor, but was now comparatively rich,
But after improving the condition of the professors, and
hbnomtiet, o
that
were
making them almost affluent, were they to reduce them
to u state of poverty ag..in? The Home Secretary had
also stated that the college was intended for domestic
purposes, and that the funds voted by Parliament, in-
steadbe ißight
used s e d fo rHon.t
employedhe
Gentlemenfor
education
the
foreign
insotfi
instituted
priestsre priests s ttshaet;
most meagre inquiry he would have ascertained there
was no foundation whatever for thafassert-to n which ,was
so often repeated by the -
great champions of Pretea.
antism. When famine visited Ireland then there
was a fusion between the Roman Catholics and Pro-
testants, who forgot all their religious differences in
their anxiety to minister to the wants of tho people,
and now the Hon. Member for Warwickshire sought to
separate and destroy that happy union by a motion
of this nature. It was said there was a conspiracy at
Maynooth, but he treated the present movement as
part of a conspiracy in high places in this country
against Catholicity—as a conspiracy on the part of the
University of Oxford for the purpose of retaliation
against that earnest inquiry which had been evinced
by Protestants to arrive at the religious truth. The
Protestant feeling abroad in the country would not al-
low a Government, however well disposed, to do justice
to Ireland. Roman Catholic Members in that House
had, therefore, only one resource, and that was self-de-
pendence. They should attach themselves to no party,
and keep aloof from all party conflicts, and then, when
the fitting moment arrived, form themselves into com-
pact array and teach the Government and the House
that the undeniable rights and privileges of the Roman
Catholics were nut to he tampered with with impunity.
Mr. NAPIER said that the present motion having
been brought forward by an independent Member of the
House, it was for the Government to consider what
course they would take on the subject. Before the pro •
sent Government had taken office, the proposal was in
the shape of an absolute repeal of the grant. To that,
of course the Government could not, consistent with
a due discharge of their duty, assent, nor
could he himself, whatever his individual con-
viction on the subject might be, give his con-
sent to such a course; but after the aceessicn of the
Government to effice, the Hon. Mover of this motion,
knowing that the Government would not consent to a
repeal of the grant, had altered his motion to
a renntest for a Committee of Inquiry. To that
motion he considered the Government were bound
to consent. Such an inquiry—to see whether
the grant were carried out to the full benefit
of those for whom
the grant was first established—could
not hut be of use. In the first place it was necessary to
see fir hat were the intentions and the purpose of that
legislation by which tide grant was established. After
tracing at some length the progress of legislation with
regard' to the Roman Catholic religion the Learned
Gentleman proceeded to show that Maynooth
was not established as a religious endowment,
but as en educational institution, to provide
an education for those who, but for the ex-
pense, and their not being able to b 3 under the Roman
Catholic discipline, might at that time have repaired to
TriniF •
College, Dublin. That was the object with
which
ainooth was founded, mid it was not intended
then as a state establishment, but merely receiving
s
n Ciee d old. As they received a state grant, he con-.
it area the duty cf Parliament to ascertain
whether the grant was pp a dle to the proper purpose!.
It was under these circu
re stances that the inquiry which
d
had hero already alluda
nooth was not regarded as took
a aiPlace. Originally
May-
Perahns of the Lenart.seminary for priests but for
Catholic religioc, and it was

under that denomination that it had come under the
inquiry of the Commissioners in 1824; and as it
was still, ho thought, an education'sl establish-
ment, it was still liable to an inquiry. Now
that the annual grant no longer existed that power of
inquiry could no longer be exercised, and there was
therefore need of a special inquiry. The power of visi-
tation was of no use to obtain the truth on the subject
of education at Maynooth, and nothing but a Committee
could satisfactorily investigate these important matters.
If the Roman Catholics of Ireland had followed
the advice of their beat friends—if the Roman
Catholic priesthood had refrained from mingling in
politics and public affairs, the cry for the inquiry would
never have been heard, and no dissatisfaction have been
raised at the nature of the doctrines taught there. It
was the sense of the want of success of the policy of 1845
that had been the cause of the feelings against
Maynooth. No man would be more rejoiced than
himself if the inquiry showed that the object of
the trusts had been carried out faithfully and sin-
cerely ; but he contended that against the teaching
of ultramontane doctrines it behoved every man, be
his creed what it might, to lift up his voice, being, as
they wore, doctrines which trampled upon the laws of
the country, and sought to dispense with the sovereignty
of the Queen. The patrons of Maynooth College how-
ever, were the bishops of the Roman Catholic Church in
Ireland, and these bishops had openly professed their ad-
herence to ultramontane doctrines.—(Cries of "No, no.")
Ho repeated that the Conduct of the heads of Maynooth
since 1345 demanded that this inquiry should be had.
Those heads had declared themseh-ta in favour of ultra-
montane principles, and in continuing; the grant they
were under the existing system paying money to a
foreign agent. The grant was originally conceded upon
domestic grounds, but as the matter now stoodohere was
no domestic clergy, because the Pope of Rome exercised
authority over the bishops, while the bishops con-
trolled the clergy. In point of fact, therefore, the
agents of the Pope enjoyed the administration of the
Maynooth funds, and looking at the conduct of the
heads of the college since the year 1845, he could
arrive at no other conclusion than that the time had
arrived when en inquiry ought to take place into
the affairs of the college.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Well, then, how was that inquiry to take place? Some
proposed that it Should be by commission, and not by
Parliamentary Committee; but he did not agree with
them. The inquiry ought to be a dispassionate and
candid one, and he thought a Parliamentary Cora-
-1 mitten was a fit and proper tribunal to engage in the
investigation.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The posi-
tion of the State Church watt a very different ques-
tion to the present. At a future day that question
might be fairly discussed, but in the meantime let them
have a Committee to examine into the operation of the
grant made to the opposite Church.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said the latter remark of the last
speaker referred to him, but he begged to state that he
bad no desire to see the 'State Church of Ireland in any
way disturbed.
Mr. FOR.PESCUE said the speech of the Learned
Attorney-General was an echo of the No-Popery cry
which had been raised out of doors, and he looked upon
it as the curse of the country. There appeared
to be no end to it in Protestant England
and Protestant Scotland, and it was daily be-
coming apparent that the Catholic Emancipation Act
was not carried with the hearty concurrence of the people
of Great Britain. He for one deplored this much, because
it setieried him that the future was still pregnant with
danger for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) This Protestant
country' could not long go on treating Roman Catholic
Ireland in this manner, or else the Roman Catholic
people of Ireland would begin to think that they would
be better off without their connexion with England.—
(Hear.) Compared with the revenues enjoyed by the
State Church, this grant was ridiculously insignificant,
and to make it a pretext for reviving
the No-Popery
cry in Parliament was impolitic as well as unjust.—
(Hear, !learn
With regard to this particular motion,
he contended that there was no necessity for
any inquiry, and he should unhesitatingly give his
decided opposition as a Protestant Irishman to the
proposal of
the Hon. Member for North Warwickshire.
Mr. DRUMMOND could not separate the question of
inquiry from the persons who were to conduct it.—
(Lear, hear.) 2-show in deciding the two questions
it should not be forgotten that Ireland was a
Roman Catholic country, while the State Church was
originally planted by the force of the bayonet.—(Hear,
hear.) The Hen. Member for North Warwickshire
charged Maynooth with encouraging irreligion and im-
morality, but he contended that a Protestant
was totally incompetent to decide whether the
doctrines taught at Maynooth were proper or not.—
(Hear, hear.) They ought not to propose inquiries of
this nature, but to rejoice that there was such a
church amongst us like the Roman Catholic Church,
which stood up for the divine institution of hie-
rarchy, and the governmental system or principle.—
(Hear, hear.) It was not for him to decide what
were the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church,
but the Roman Catholics would agree with him that the
order of the Jesuits had been denounced as incompatible
with the safety of society.—(Hear, hear.) The Pope
suppressed the order on that accouut, and yet at
this moment the order was predominant in
the Roman Catholic Church. (Hear, hear.)
The recent aggression of Cardinal Wiseman and his
followers was dictated by the Jesuits, and it should not
be forgotten that the firm conviction of this body was
that they ought to have the government of the whole
world in their own hands.—(Hear, hear.) In
point of fact they declared themselves openly
opposed to the liberty encouraged and protected
under the name of Protestantism, and this it was that
had irritated the people of England and Scotland against
the Roman Catholic Church.—(Hear.) They were jea-
lous of their civil and religious liberties, and although
might be misdirected, yet at bottom it
taught surf ius
just.—(final.)
L-ItthaelY)
becrerusade against Great Britain, and the people
wt heaersi
er sincere atonag
w
wTehdo Jo
leiseugiitese he dt
e com-
mencedthen , but Le had too much faith
courage of the people to suppose that
make progress within those
this doctrine would v
hear.)
rine Popeaitheal
s.honesty_ before(l
l tahrea, inrd Sco
ovuee
rr
aee r
Mr. FRESIIFIELD then moved the adjournment of
the debate.
Mr. ANSTEY resisted the motion, and declared that
it was another manoeuvre to get rid of the debate alto-
gether.—(No, no.) Why it was proposed to adjourn
the debate sine die.—(No, no.) Yes but it was.—(No.)
The SPEAKER said the Housemust first decide that
the debate should be adjourned before they could fix
theu tby tim
the Ilea.
and ar, hear.)
spits
ofthrown
o Mr. SPOONER, in the insinuations Learned Gentleman and his fol-
lowers, had 130 hesitation in saying that he was quite
ready to name the time if the forms of the House would•— ar,
allow him to do so .--ear, hear.) He would adjourn the
te.—e
debate until six o'clock if those Hon. Gentleman who
had motions on the paper Would give way.—(Hear.)
H shad, been charged with a want of honesty in making
ion and altering it to
accommodate the views
of the Government; but he denied this in toto.—(Hear,
hear.) He had never altered his specific motion, nor had
he ever been insincere either in proposing it, or in his
desire to bring it to
a divieion.—(Hear, hear.) He
hoped the House would now allow the debate to be
adjourned until after the other
orders of the day, and he
had no objection to snake a motion to that effect.
The SPEAKER repeated that the House must first
decide that the debate should bead
journed before it could
fix the time.—(Hear, hear.)
, Mr. D'EYNCOURT urged the House to fix the ad-
'
jou.l• • •Me nt for a future day,
The CHANCELLOR
of the EXCHEQUER said,
c nisidering the present state
of public business, he
thought, it the discussion was to be adjourned, that it
would be expedient to continue it to day, but on the
whole he considered it would be better to divide at
once.—(Cheers.)
Mr. REYNOLDS said he had no objection to
adjourn the debate, said
he
the motion itself, but they
(the Irish Members) te
e not prepared to divide, as
there were several of them who wished to address the
House on the question, er
eee hoped, if the House ulti-
mately decided that an
inquiry should be instituted, it
would spare Roman Cetholics the infliction of having the
Hon. Member for North Warwickshire chairman of the
Committee.
Mr. T. DUNCO!qSE
said, as a preliminary
question, they ongut to decide whether the House
should sit to-morrow, If it did sit he saw no objection
why the debate should not be adjourned until to-morroev.
There was no feeling in the
country
in favour of this
question being renewed
in the House, and ho could not
himself see that any u__
t from these de-
em' could result bates. If an queryin';_,
tut Maynooth were instituted it
was impossible
bring °'t eonclueion during the
present seseion.
„ had to
motion on the paper for the
41)31,it" tee post-horseamal but ho had no objection
too give way to enable duty,
be adjourned until
the debate to
this evening.
Lord ROBERT "el he was per-
fectly GROSVENOR sal
withdraw his motion
adillinn tofor the abolition
a
of the attorneys' certificate duty, provided the Govern-
ment would him good position for some other
give as a
day this week.
The gallery eves then but no division took
piece, it having men
thatcleared, sees
the debate should he
adjourned tatter the other agreed orders of the day.
Mr. ANSTEy moved, an a,,„aduleut,.that the de-
bate be continued at six o'clock.
The SPEAXER sen •
House could out tlitt t • iioll which was inconsis-
tent with its ordrerl am°
Mr. ANSTety
said ho. would make ar.other motion,
viz., that the debate LhOtild boadjourned until tomorrow,
Mr. REYNOLI)S, it: rely to certain observations made
by The O'Gorman Mahon concerning himself, said ho
supposed that Gallent Member wanted him to take a re-
turn ticket to Weybridge—(Laughter)—but he assured
him that he was not to ttt, bullied.—(Laughter.)
Mr. IlEYNCOleneat said if it was the general wish
ofe the House, tie would withdraw his motion to enable
the uebato te c°we on again to-night.
Mr. KEOGH thought, if the Government were sincere,
they ought to -- y
fix a (1, for the debate, and ant call on
Members to absndon their motions.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was quite kr,pQsit-ible for the Government to fix any of
the few days left them for debates which were not con-
nected with the immediate arid pressing necessities of
public busireos. He had already thrown out a sugges-
tion, and he must leave lion. Members to settle the
matter among themselves.
After a is w words from Mr. ECULLY and Sir A.
Caeirneea,
The
House flividzd, when there appeared—
For adjourning the debate till to-morrow
Against it
•.•
Mejority ..•
THE DERBY DAY.
Lord PALMERSTON, in pursuance of his notice,
rose to move that the House at its rising do adjourn till
Thursday. There was no hope of any public business
being got through to-morrow, unless there was a call of

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