The Sun.
London, England, 1864-01-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, T kJESPAY EVENING, : JANUARY 5, 1864.

WHERE- CAN WE MEEr AFTER THE
PANT(IMIIIES ? My dear Fellow, Gentlemen sup
at EVANS', Covent-garden.

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Observe the Red Seal, Pink Label,' and Cork branded
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AUCTION,.MART, London, January 2, 1864
The
.Directors of the Auction Mart hereby give notice,
teat they Will snortly be prepared to receive TE N uE itS fcr
the PU►+CUASE of the whole of the FREEHOLD
BUILDINGS, Land, and Hereditaments, know,. as the
Auction•Mirt, Opposite the Bank of England, in the City of
London, with early possession.
Printed copies of the Conditions of Sale and Forms of
' Tender are in preparation, and notice will be given when
they are ready.
- order of the Board.
• G. IL' JAQUES, Secretary.

CIOIIO ESTATE, HOUSE,.AND GENERAL
BUSINESS AGENCY OFFICES.—Persons requiring
Freehold or. .Leasehold Property, •or -having Business and
Houses to be*disposel of, should apply. to Mr. CHARLES
MUARAY, Auctioneer and Valuer, 26, Gerrard-street,
'Soho, W.
Valuations for Probate Administration, Fire Claims, Rail-
way Compensations, Sze.. Rents Collected.- • - •

PRISON DISCIPLINE IN HAMPSHIRE.

ADOPTION OF THE :EARL OF CARNARVON'S

RrPORT.

WINCHESTER, Monday.
The subject of prison discipline, which has excited so
much interest in this county, was again brought under dis-
cussion this day before a very „full bench of magistrates.
Lord Evers. ley presided, and amongst the other magistrates
present were the Earl of Carnarvon,Lond H.Cholmondeley,
Lord Heytesbury,- Lora Somerton, Sir-W. Heathcote,M.P.,
Col. Humphry, M.P., Mr. Beach, M P., Sir H. Servolee,
M.P,, Mr, Carter, M.P., Mr.' Mater' toiith; M.P., Admi-
ral Sir C. Curtis, Admiral Ne 14114 noii.l. D'. 'Curzon, J.
W. Salt, Esq., H. J. Mulcock, Esq., F. J. Marks; Esq.,
V. C. Di Esdaile, Esq.,,H.. O. Compton, Esq., Sir John
Simeon, the Rev. J. T. Maine, the. Hon. J. T. Dutton, Sir
'H. P. Gordon, and Raikes Currie, Esq. .
On the motion of Sir W. HBATHCOTE, seconded by Lord
H. CHOLMONDELEY, Dr. Butler was appointed surgeon to
the eounty prison, in the room of Dr. Lyford, resigned.
Lord H. CHOLMONDELEY then brought up the report of
the visiting justices, stating their disagreement to certain
parts of the _report on prison discipline presented: by the
Earl of Carnarvon at the Christmas Sessions,which he pro-
posed to submit to the Court inthe f• live of an amendment.
The justices, although disagreeing with recommendations
to which the amendment would refer, expressed their
anxious wish to carry out such new duties as might be im-
posed upon them. _
The Earl of CARNARVON then rose to move the following
resolution, of which he had given notice at the Christmas
sessions :—" That this Court do agree; with the committee
on prison discipline in the recommendations contained' in
their report, and that a . committee, to consist of the
several justices of the county prison, be appointed—that
the, said report be referred to them for their guidance, any'
that they do' frorii time to time report to the. (1^ '
progress made in carrying the same into OF: -end the.
earl said it _ was his 'anxious le:-.-" ..:ect." The' noble
justices, and to smooth " ':' ...en to' Meet the visiting
which might Q''-' _ away any :points of antagonism
Weeny-- • , -.et. His noble friend had adopted a very
. eerent and very unusual mode of proceeding in
framing his amendments on. th a MOt ion, send retaining them
'until the last moment, when it was impossible to give them
full consideration:Oh that ground,•and also- on the pound
that he had not- had time to consult manygentlemen who
had served on the select committee by whom thereport had
been prepared, he should be justified in declining to accept
the amendments, but he must go a step further and say,
that, having glanced at the amendments which had been
handed to him, he could not accept them, because, their,
adoption would practically put an end to the recOmmende'
-Cons containedin the report. ' The committee had been
appointed to consider the whole subject,' and-Thad 'framed
what he considered a satisfactory scheme,- Another com-
mittee suggested certain alterations in that scheme. Now
he thought it was not too much to ask that the system which
had been recommended should have a fair trial, and in the
event of its failure he Should be perfectly ready to co-ope-
rate with his noble friend 'in 'obtaining- enlarged powers for
the visiting-justices, or in procuring a modification of any
of the principles laid down in the report. If -the amend-
ments were iew and trifling, as his noble frierd appeared to
consider them, then they were.. superatteus.; but if they
materially affected the substance of the report he trusted
the Court would consider him right in pressing his motion
to a division. Before proceeding further he Should be glad'
to hear what his noble friend had to say in support of hit
atnendments, and would'then endeavour to reply to him.
(Hear.)_ He might, however, be permitted to state that lie
had receiveda letter from Lord Shaftesbury, who was pre-
vented by indisposition from taking part in the proceedings,
in which letter his noble friend
,expressed his anxiety to
support the views -embodied in the report from the convic-
tions which he had arrived at clur:ng a long and arduous
attention to the CVidence given before the committee of the
House of Lords.. (Hear, hear.)-- • .. , , , • .. ,
The motion haring been seconded and put from the chair,
Lord H. CHOLMONDELEY rose to propose his amend-
ments, the adoption of which he denied would be fatal to
the report. They were as follows :—" That this Court do
agree with.the committee on prison discipline in, the recom-
mendations• contained in their report, with the following
amendments thereto :-1. That in special eases, to be re-
ported by chaplain to visiting justices and approved
of by them, secular books be all Owed to Prisoners in the Ist
and 2d classes. 2. That the visiting justices be instructed
to make such arrangements of the prisoners' time as may in
their opinion be desirable for carrying out the hard-labour
scale, and also to fix the hours for school instruction ; but
that they be recommended
.te sonsicler,_ when making such
arrangements, whether the whole. or any portion of such
school instruction may not be advantageously given in the
evening. 3. That as the introduction of guard or plank beds
must be considered simply as an experiment, the visiting
justices-be instructed-to order only a limited number of such,
beds, not in the first instance to exceed 20, and thatsuch
beds be used with or without mattresses, at the discretion
of the visiting justices, but that they be directed to report
froni time to time to the court, stating whether, in their
opinion, it will be desirable to increase the number of beds,
and to adopt fielly the suggestions of 'the select comtnittee
with regard to the first and second classes of prisoners.
4. That, in the opinion of the Court, it is not desirable at
present to take any steps for the restoration of the stalls in
the 'chapel, but that the visiting justices he requested to
mal4e such arrangements as they may judge expedient for
preVenting more effectually all communication, but that
no. alteration 'be made in the daily attendance 'of pri-
soners. 5. 'That the table in the appendix be re-arranged,
in order to meet the alterations .now adopted by the Court.
With respect to the first resolution, the
.visiting justices
were of opinion that there were prisoners to whom it was
really necessary to give secular books, and all the justices
required was that they might have the power to grant such
books in special cases reported to them by the chaplain.
If.the Court adopted that suggestion he could assure them
that the indulgence would not be abused. With respect to
the second amendment he was really-at a loss to understand
how his noble friend could consider it fatal to the report.
The object in, view was, that the hours of instruction
should be fixed ; but that would be taking out of the hands
of the justices a power which they ought to be allowed to
retain, He would not say whether it was good or bad to let
instructionbe given in the evening—but in his opinion the
arrangements ought to be left in the hands of, the justices.
The third amendment referred to the experiment which
ought, lathe first instance, to be tried on a small scale—
and he thought it would be extremely unwise to order 50 or
60 plank beds to begin with. All that tine justices to
. quired was to be allowed to try the 'experiment -on a
smaller scale than that recommended by his noble friend..
With regard to the fourth amendment he felt very.
strongly, and was of opinion that the justices ought to be
allowed to make such arrangements as they deemed expe-
dient for preventing more effectually the communication of
prisoners with each other. Whatever the Court might de-
termine upon the justices would endeavour to carry out to
the best of their ability. 'The most important part of the
proposition of his noble friend was that relating to hard
labour, and that the justices were fully prepared to carry
out. He doubted whether it would have the effect desired
by his noble-friend, but if that should prove to be the case
he'would be one :of the first to congratulate him on the
alteration. He doubted whether the change proPotied would
have the effect of reducing the number of prisoners ; for on
looking over the Lords' report it was somewhat remarkable
that in,those, prisons where the labour was most severe
there were the largest number of re-commitments. (Hear.)
The aniendments were seconded' by Mr. CHUTE.
, . Lord SOMERTON objebted to the'aniendrnerits, which, he
said, struck 'at the root of the 'whole :matter, particularly
those rela'tiig to ‘school instruction and separation in-
the
~chapel.,.,. Those, gentlemen, _ who supported the
amendments ought to consider what the result of their op..
pe'sitime might be. The minima embodied in the report
ware not only the opinions, of theenobleeerl and his corn-
'mttee, but the opinions ofithe conenxittee .of ,the lickuae of
_Lords, the opinions of the Royal commission on penal servi-
tude, and the opinions of many of the judges of the land,
aridespecially' of the-toid_ChielJuitice, '(bear' hear.) lie
' had heard' some objections stated ea 'to the niim'ber'abinits
ploposed-for labour. The number proposed was ten. Some
persons had vete au far as to say thaitt,auch an amount of
labour would have a senous.effeat on the m4lll'ol the.-Pn-

sorters, but in the rerne orthe House of Lords' committee
it appeared that in,some cases, exclusive of other labour,
prisoners were employed nearly nine hours on the treadimill.
He, therefore, thought the proposition of the noble earl ex-
.

tremely moderate. (Hear, hear.)
Mr ESDAILE said the only desire of the Court was to show
a proper feeling
,of respect to the committee which had pre-
sented midi an able report, and to visiting justices, who had
always so ably discharged their. duty,. (14eakehear.) He
would suggf st that the 'Court should express their thanks
to the committee for the report which they had presented,

. .
and refer that report to the visiting justices to carry it out
in their descretion from time-to time as they might think fit.

(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BEACH, said the noble earl had invited the
justices to reconsider the present system. The visiting
justices had shown a desire to enter calmly into the details
of the'recommendatians which, had been made, in mot of

which details the, chairman of the visiting justices commit 7

tee, had acquiesced. There were several matters in which
great latitude was left to the justices, The question of plank
beds must be left to their discretion., and as to- instruc-
tion in the evenings, he thought they miglA.try whether
it would 'operate beneficially, and then report to the Court
The resolution did noturder them to carry out any details.
They were simply. Palled upon to parry the recommenda-
ions contained in the report into,effect to the best, of, their
ability and power; and he was sure that no one would
have any reason to' cbtoplain of their want of zeal and dis-
cretion in carrying out these recommendations. He thought
the report ought to be adopted as it stood, suacien9atttude
being left to the justiceS to exercise their own discretion in

the matter. (Hear, hear.)
Lord .11BYTESBURY expressed his concurrence' in the
views of the last speaker._
Mr. BERNARD said one of the evils complained of by the
Lords' committee was' the Want of uniformity in prison dis-
cipline, and he tiid not tbink•that the adoption of the report
would at all tend to remove amt. afficulty. If the report
should be adopted in its entirety, in what situation would
some of the prisons be ? PrisOners tried at' Winchester and
sent to Portsmouth or Southampton would receive very
different sorts of_punishpent front those imprisoned at Win
cheater. If the discipline recommended by the noble earl
was proper it ought to be adopted generally. He believed
that the Secretary for the Home Department was taking

some steps in the matter, for. he had directed returns to be
made with respect to the diet in prisons ;; and,, under these
circumstances, he would suggest the propriety of postponing,
the further consideration of the matter 'for the present;
Mr. CLA.TEII, BOOTH, 4.P., believed that the time had
arrived for making prison discipline more stringent, and felt
greatly'Obliged to the noble earl for the part which he had
taken in the matter,' but felt' that great deference was dne
to the opinions of the gentlemen who had had the maa

nagemeut of the prison for ao many Ylara, and the Court
ought no`t'to bome to a"7;ote which would place them in an
unpleasant position. (Hear, hear.) He should he ilia if

shuepfpeol
rt
t. that
So
the Court could separate without coming to a vote. If not.,
Otlifearyfritinitintiejeumsteicnedsntdtsa great claim claim On his
P:ntag_onistio,
he was
to try n
was surprisedte theeretxop.finiin(d3t
, visiting juAo
to diet and labour. ices so ready to
concur in the redommendations •
ontamed in the report,
an
recommended with regard'
whether it was worth while to ask
the Court tr
with r„- allow them to exercise their discretion
_bard to the font points contained in the amendment,
or whether they might assume that the Court would grant
that discretion, hexas not prepared to say. , It might be
assumed:that the'bourt Would not bind them with respect
to every detail, and would view with forbearance any ob-
servations which they might make.--But if they insisted on
the amendments.being.adept.d.heshould not oppose them.
(Heal, hear.)
Mr. H. Gontioi lieliebed !that it was the wish of the
Court that the report should be carried oat within the lati-
tude indicated by the amendment. 'Whether the object
would be obtained by the adoption of the motion with that
understanding, or whether it would be better to adopt .the
amendments, might be a ,matter of arrangement! But if
the carrying, of the amendment would be equivalent to the
rejection of the report, he would vote for the original mo-
tion. .(Hear, hear) „ • •
The Earl of CARNARVON eangratulated the, Court on the
moderate tone'Which the discussioh had assumed. Various
propositions had been mope With the view of bringing
about woompleteSgreement, and- the Court must be satin-
fled if it obtained an agreement in reality, and not look too
Much to teehnicalAgrefment in words. It had been sug-
gested that the consideratiOn Of the' report should be de-
layed until some' stepaTiverntakety bi central authority.
It was hardly necessary to discuss that point. The Court
was of opinion that some action ougnt to be taken, and if
they were' to wait until th Secretary of State proposed a
uniform system, they, would have to wait a very long time.
(Hear, hear.) A proposition had been made that the report
should be referred to the visiting justices for them to re-
port upon. - • • • -•
Mr. ESDAILE said what he had suggested, was that the
justices should take into consideration the report of the
special committee, and carry out such parts of it as they
should 'deem -advisable, 'and report- thereon from time to

The Earl of CARNARVON—That would give the visiting
lustices entire discretion to scratch out every line of the
•

to remain there." (Hear; 'and laughter). Now, it
was not desirable that such an impression should get
abroad amongst the labouring classes. Offenders ought to
receive the punishment to which they were sentenced, and
not be tester treated than an honest man earning Bs. a
week and supporting himself and his family by his own
honest industry. (Hear, hear.)
Lord H. CH6LMONDELEY, after a few remarks in ex-
planation, withdreiv hislirstand third resolution, and the
second and fourth were put to the vote, the number of the
magistrates, being recorded,
Lord EVERSLEY, on casting up the number, declared them
to be—

For Lord Carnarvon's motion
For the amendment l9
Majority —2B
The original motion was, therefore, carried; and, the
other business having been disposed of,
The Court adjourned.

•
The Chancellor of the Exchequer in

Flintshire.