The Sun.
London, England, 1864-05-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening,
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

DENMARK.

The Earl of CARNARVON gave notice that on Mon-
day next he should call the attention of the house to the
present state of the Danish question.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a second time :—Hertford
Gas—Chichester Harbour Embankment—North Eastern
Railway (York and Doncaster Branch)—Chichester and
Midhurst Railway—Edgware, Highgate, and London
Railway—and Watford and Edgware Railway.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Port Glasgow Harbour—Redruth and Falmouth Junction
ittilway—Grand Western Canal and Bristol and Exeter
Railway—lndependent Gas Company—Waterford and
Limerick, Limerick and Foyness, and Rathkeale and New-
castle Junction Railway—Birmingham and Staffordshire
Gas—South Yorkshire Railway—London, Brighton, and
South Coast Railway (Kemp Town Station)—and Lanca-
shire and Yorkshire (additional powers).
DEBTOR AND CREDITOR.

The LO RD CHANCELLOR called attention to the
state of the law of debtor and creditor as affecting the poorer
classes ; and presented a bill for the limitation of actions
and process fur small debts, and to amend the acts
relating to the county courts, and to confer on
such courts a limited jurisdiction in equity. The
noble and learned lord said the subject was one of the
greatest importance, because as many as 17,979 persons
had been committed to prison by the act giving the power
of imprisonment to county court judges. Some of those
persons so sent to prison had been deprived of personal
liberty for the most insignificant crimes, as there were cases in
which persons had been imprisoned for the non-payment of
such sums as Is. ld., 3s. 10d., ls. 6d., 2s, 9d., and in one
case a man had suffered several days' imprisonment
for default of payment of ninepence. The sum total of
the amounts for these committals did not amount
to more than £62,438, and no doubt could be entertained
on the circumstance, because the calculations had been
made upon returns made to Parliament. His lordship was
of opinion that a creditor was not justified in imprisoning a
debtor to the injury of society. To come to a right
decision on the case it was necessary to inquire
whether tne creditor gave credit under circum-
stances which justified and required him to imprison his
debtor ; to inquire whether the creditor could say, " I have
a right to this remedy on behalf of society, in order that I
may be enabled to recover my debt." The present law was
especially hard upon the labourer, because it in effect mort-
gaged the entire earnings of the debtor to the merciless

creditor for an indefinite time, without the possibility or
hope of redemption. He begged their lordships, but for one
instant, to draw a comparison between the law as respected
bankruptcy and that dispensed in county courts. In the
one, on the surrender of his goods, a bankrupt gets
a discharge from all his liabilities, whilst in the county
court the poor creditor gets an order which hangs about
his neck for years, and, in fact, from which he never, or
seldom, liberates himself. The consequences of the county
court system had become the very parent of the evil they
were called upon to check. Small shop-keepers and pedlars
tempted the improvident, and, he must add, dissipated
poor. Credit being easily obtained, debts for things not
actually necessaries was soon contracted, and on the first
failure of payment resource is had to the county courts. In
many cases goods are supplied by persons without the
knowledge of the husband, as the pedlar generally calls
when the husband is at work. As long as he keeps so she
makes her payments to the pedlar, but when work fails
the pedlar perseveres for his money ; the wife is unable to
pay, and summonses by the hundreds are taken out by
these sort of people, and thus a great deal of misery is oc-
casioned, in addition to which, in many cases, more than
three times the value of the article was charged.
Although the husband had no knowledge of the debt, he is
cited to the County Court, and there he is ordered to pay the
amount for which he never rendered himself liable. It had
been said that this system of credit was necessary, and
advantageous to the provident poor, but he denied that
such was the case. On the contrarT, he thought that if it
was altogether put an end to, it would lead to a more pru-
dent, careful, and provident state of things. (Hear, hear.)
The bill he held in his hand, in the first place, would give
power to the judge to take into consideration the whole of
the circumstances of the debt. He thought it was
not justifiable to retain the present pewer of impri-
sonment for debt, on the ground that it enabled the
poor man to obtain credit in seasons of distress. He be-
lieved that this was in the long run no gain to the poor man,
for he was much more likely to be encouraged in habits of
care and forethought by a system under which he could not
gain credit. He proposed, therefore, to abrogate entirely
that part of the present law which enabled a county court
judge to commit a debtor to prison merely because he was
satisfied of his power to pay. It was necessary, however,
to retain some principles of criminal legislation in this part
of our law, and he therefore proposed that tor debts con-
tracted by fraud, false pretences, or breach of trust, the
debtor should be subjected to one term of imprisonment, and
he intended that this imprisonment should, under all cir-
cumstances, be a reality. He should also provide that
whenever a man was brought before a county court judge,
the judge (if satisfied that he had no means of paying his
debts, and was not likely to have within a reasonable time)
should call before himself all the creditors of the debtor, and
ascertain what load could with propriety be laid on his
shoulders. That sum would be divided amongst the credi-
tors, and the debtor would then be released from his liabi-
lities. That was the only way in which they could place a
poor man who had become involved in debt in a position
corresponding to that in which a person in a superior posi-
tion of life was p 1 ced by the operation of the bankrupt or
insolvent laws. One clause in this bill would prevent
any score for intoxicating drinks consumed in a public-
house from being sued for in a county court ; while another
would limit the period within which small debts could be
sued for or judgments enforced in the county courts, to one
year after the debt was contracted or the judgment reco-
vered. The second part of his bill invested the county
courts with a summary equitable jurisdiction, which he
trusted would be exercised, and speedily, without a great
amount of forte, and without much expense ; and would
thus enable the poor man to obtain the same remedies which
those who were richer obtained from the Court of Chancery.
His lordship concluded by emphatically and earnestly com-
mending his measure to the attention of the house, and
expressing his hope that it would tend to the benefit of the
labouring classes.
Lord CRA:`.IWORTH entirely concurred in the desira-
bility of getting rid of the power of imprisonment by county
courts as far as was possible.
The bill was then read a first time.
NAVAL AND VICTTJALLING STORES BILL,
This bill was read a s eeond time.
The house then adjdurned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last :Evening.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clQtic.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The F..ilkenny Cathedral, Economy Fend Bill, and the
Scottish Central Railway (Stations, &e.) Bill were read a
third time and passed.

THE CIVIL WAR IN AMERICA,
Mr. MARSH, in the absence of Mr. Lindsay, gave no-
tice that he would move a resolution to the effect that it
was the duty of this house to consider what would be the
effect of the continuance cf the civil war in America on this
country.

EMIGRATION FR OM IRELAND TO AMERICA
Mr. SCULLY asked the Secretary of State for the
Borne Department whether his attention had been directed
to the proposed Act of American Congress providing for the
reduction of tonnage dues on immigrant vessels, and for the
appointment of a Government Commissioner of Immigra-
tion, who shall be empowered to contract for the importa-
tion of immigrants, and for their transmission into the inland
districts of the 'United States: and, whether it was the in-
tention of the present Government to, adopt any measures
either towards diverting into some of her Majesty's
calonies an increased and increasing emigration from Ire-
land, or towards arresting that emigration, by providing
industrial employment at home, or by reducing exorbitant
taxation, or by improving the land laws, or by abolishing
religious distinctions, or by conceding to Irishmen some
participation in the government of their own country, or
otherwise ?

Sir G. GREY said that his attention had been called to
the subject which formed the first portion of the hon. mem-
ber's question, and there could be no doubt that emigration
from Ireland to America was going on very extensively,
but it was the result of superior wages offered
in that country than were received at home, M the same
way that Irishmen were induced to come to England,
because they received better remuneration for their la-
bour than they did from Irish employers. With regard to
the other part of the question, it was obvious that Govern-
ment could not take any active measure in providing in-
dustrial occupation for the agricultural portion of the
Irish population at home; and, in reference to religion,
Irishmen enjoyed as much liberty as any other portion of
the United Kingdom.

THE RAILWAY FROM HALIFAX TO QUEBEC.
Mr. AYR fON asked the Secretary for the Colonies
whether it was the intention of the Government to ask the
sanction of Parliament, during the present session, for a
guerantes of interest on a sum of money zequired to complete
the railway from Halifax to Quebec ; an', if not, whether
the intention of doing so was finally aizandoned, and whether
any correspondence had taken place between the colonial
offices and the authorities in Canada and British Columbia
on the subject of the proposed telegraphic communication
between Canada and the Pacific, subsequently to that which
was produced last year; and, if so, whether he Lad any ob-
jection to lay copies of such correspondence upon the table?
Mr. CARD WELL said it was not the intention of Go-
vernment to ask for any grant this session for the under-
taking in question, but the matter was under consideration.
With regard to the second question there had been some
correspondence, which would be laid on the table in a short
time.

DENMARK.
Mr, NEWD.EGATE aske7l.whetber her MRjesty's Go-

vernment intended to adopt any measures likely to be more
effectual than those which have hitherto been attempted,
for the purpose of relieving the people and King of Den-
mark from the oppression to which they were daily sub-
jected P The hon. member endeavoured to address the
house, and to enter into the general matters connected with
the question, but was called to order by the speaker,
Sir G. GREY said that the Conference was sitting, and
he believed the first result would be an armistice, On the
part of her Majesty's Government ho could only say that
their desire was to effect an amicable arrangement between
the German Powers and Denmark, and to restore peace.
(Hear, hear,)
NAVY ESTIMATES,
In reply to Sir J. PAKINGTON,
_ _

Lord C. PAGET was understood to say that he would

lay the supplementary estimate for the increased pay of
officers of the Royal Navy on the table before Whitsuntide,
and that he proposed the discussion should come on
shortly after the holidays.
THE AURORA.

Mr. D. GRIFFITH asked whether the Aurora frigate,
under the command of Sir Leopold M'Clintock, had been
sent to the North Sea in the direction of the Austrian
squadron ; and if so, why a force more adequate to cope
with any possible contingency that might arise had not
been despatched at the same time ?
Lori C. PAGET said that the Aurora had been sent
to the North Sea according to a practice that had pre-
vailed in this country for some time, namely, that
a British man-of-war should be placed in seas where the
British nation had an interest, and where a foreign squad-
ron might be expected to visit.
THE AUSTRIAN SQUADRON.

_ .
In reply to Sir J. PAKINGTON,
Lord C. PAGET said that the Austrian squadron had
left the Downs, but he did not know what was its desti-
nation.

Sir G. GREY said that he could only repeat the answer
. _

he had given on a previous occasion Co the effect that he
had new assurances from the Austrian Government that

the fleet was going into the North Sea merely to prevent a
blockade of the Elbe and the Weiper.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS:

Mr. G. DUFF called attention to the Reports of the
Public Schools Commission. He analyzed the report, with
reference to the descriptions it gave of the present state of
things, which were very unsatisfactory, and to the recom-
mendations of the Commissioners, which he discussed,
supplementing them with recommendations and suggestions
of his own, and estimates of the relative value and import-
ance of different branches of study. He noticed the subjects
of discipline, of which the Commissioners reported more
favourably than of the intellectual attainments of the
scholars ; of the buildings; of recreations in relation to
health, and remarked the omission in the report of any
mention of the importance of some system of training
masters. He concluded a long speech, which repeated in-
dications of impatience showed was considered too long,, by
moving a resolution--" That the state of the higher school
education in England is not satisfactory, and calls for the
early attention of her Majesty's Government."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after re-
marking that the discussion of this subject so soon after the
publication of the report might be thought premature, paid
a warm tribute to the laborious and valuable services of the
Commissioners, to whom, he said, the Government were
indebted. With regard to the motion, he observed that it
was premature, at least, to ask the concurrence of the house
in a resolution which really amounted to a condemnation of
the Commissioners. He defended the teachers of our public
schools, and took a comprehensive view of the instruction
received in the Universities and public schools of England
and Scotland, combining training power and teaching
power, claiming for those institutions a debt of gratitude
from the country. in noticing the improvements suggested
in the branches of learning to be taught there, he dwelt
upon the danger of overloading the mind so as to prevent
its faculties from growing and thriving. It was the inten-
tion of the Government, he said, to take the report into con-
sideration, with a view to legislate upon the subject, and he
pointed out the objects to which Parliamentary legislation
should be directed.

Mr. WALPOLE recommended that the resolution
should be withdrawn after what had been said by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Sir S. NORIPICOTE, one of the Commissioners, de.
scribed their course of proceeding in the inquiry, especially
in the matter of discipline.
The resolution was withdrawn,

Sir H. BRUCE moved a resolution, " That it is not just
to charge the poor-rate in Ireland with the registry of
voters and births and deaths, and that it be an instruction
to the committee appointed on the subject of taxation in
Ireland to consider how the said expenses may be more
equitably charged." He complained of the hardship of
this tax being laid upon the poor-rate, and contended that
it had been so placed for reasons which were not valid.
The feeling of the country he said was deep upon this sub-
ject.

Sir R. PEEL replied to Sir H. BRUCE, and recommended
him to withdraw his motion.
After a few remarks by Mr ITENNmssY, the motion was
withdrawn.

Sir J. HAY moved a resolution, "That this House
would view with satisfaction the distribution of the full
sum awarded by the Order in Council of 1854 for the re-
tired officers in the Royal Marines, as it would tend to ex-
pedite the necessary promotion in that valuable corps."
This, he observed, was a sum of money which the officers
considered had not been distributed as it should be, and
they therefore thought they were ill treated.

Mr W. Wiati.ims opposed the motion upon cconcmical
principles, and Lord C. PAGET upon the facts and merits
of the case.

This motion was also withdrawn.

Mr. D. SEYMOUR. called attention to the practice of
of transporting convicts and vagrants from the Channel
Islands to Southampton and other southern seaports. He
read statements which showed that by the criminal law of
the Channel Islands such transportation was legalised.
Sir G. GREY said his attention had been called to the
matter, and he had directed inquiries to be made in Guern-
sey and Jersey, He had not yet received an answer to his
inquiry from the latter island, but from Guernsey ho had
received a complete answer (which ho read), showing that
Mr. Seymour must have been misinforry.ed.
Mr. aI'EVOY moved the followink resolution That
her Majesty's Government shout,,:i now adopt the recom-
mendation of the Select Comr
-itttee of 1858, which recor.
mended her Majesty's GO-iernment to take into cons'.dera-
tion the claims of Ir-,tand to a grant of the halt cost of
medical Akers in -anions, with th© view of -providing for
the same in fv;,tire, as is now the practice iu England and
Scotland,' "
Sir T 2... PEEL insisted that no 'good ground had been
38''...gned for the relief sought, and recommended the with-
drawal of the motion.

The motion was supported by Mr. Monsell, Colonel
Dunne, Mr. Bagwell, Mr. Hennessy, Sir H. Bruce, and
Lord J. Browne ; and opposed by Mr. Peel and Sir G.
Grey.

Upon a division, the resolution was negatived by 73
to 58.

DENMARK AND THE CONFERENCE.

Sir H. VERNEY rose to ask the Under-Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs to state to the House whether he had
reason to believe that the States of Holstein formally thanked
the King of Denmark for what he had done in altering the
succession, and, if so, on what authority he entertained that
belief; whether the intimation, in despatches 709 and 784,
that the movement in the duchies of Schleswig and Holstein
in favour of separation from Denmark was not spontaneous,
rests on the authority of any agents of the British Govern-
ment; and if he would lay upon the table any documents or
despatches on these subjects, And to move an address for
copy of the answers received from the Governments to whom
invitations were addressed to attend the Conference now
sitting in London. The hon, baronet observed that no
change in the succession to the duchies of Schleswig and
Holstein could legally be effected without the consent of the
provincial Estates, but in the present instance that consent
bad not been obtained. What was called the New Consti-
tution was indeed submitted to the Estates, but with the I
express order that the first six paragraphs of the constitu-
tion of Holstein and the first four paragraphs of the con-
stitution of Schleswig should not be discussed. The Estates
of Holstein thereupon protested, by 40 against 5, that the
foregoing paragraphs would have no validity in the duchies.
He thought no one would venture to deny that the duchies
had a right to be consulted en the subject. Holstein and
Schleswig were in ancient times united in one common Diet,
and, in 1460, that Diet elected the head of the house of
Holstein-Oldenburg as their ruler. So the matter remained
until 1616, when the common Diet decided that the
future law in the two duchies should be primogeniture,
and in the main line, which law was in favour of the
Duke of Augustenburg. The last Duke of Augustenburg
(the old Duke Christian) received a sum of money, about
1340,000, for his estates, which were worth £600,000, and
he at the same time agreed not to interfere with any
ordinance of succession which the King of Denmark might
by legal means carry into effect. But Duke Christian was
the only member of the House of Augustenburg whose
consent was sued, The assent of the Estates was never
obtained, and the afncti, who were entitled to succeed in
the duchies, were not consulted at all, The alteration, he
might observe, was not made by the treaty of 1852, but by
the repeal of
theiniencorcigv:i.4y ine
ffleBcst 185'x, or
duchies, ashe liatalrerleagtead
however, could
only to Denmark proton He denied altogether that the
existing state of feeling in the duchies had bean brought
about by means of German agents, but the contrary opinion
was widely entertained, and that fact showed the necessity
of the Government giving information on the subject.
Sir F. GOLDS\IID wished to make one remark with
regard to the spontaneity of the people before the Under-
Sdrei
triesh agents
ta ry rose
fort reply,infarm
aft
nupon
was no t necessary to refer to
thesubject,
had it on the authority of Herr von B isrii
ark and
when
Count.
they
Rechberg, that thirty or forty millions of Germans were
anxious for the annexation of the duchies. What, then,
became of the question of spontaneity ? He would not com-
pare the rule of the Danish Government in the duchies
with that of the English Government in Ireland at the
time of the penal code; but what, he would ask, would be
the condition of Ireland in that day if she had been placed
close to France instead of England ? Would it not be ut-
terly imposeible to ascertain whether any moveaunt on the