The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-15 00:00:00

that motion to-night; and whether he would propose that
the Committee should consist of 18 gentlemen instead of 15,
the usual number? He also begged to ask him whether
he meant to accede to the suggestion of his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Gladstone) who had given two notices on the subject :
"After the nomination of the Select Committee on Frome
Vicarage, to move that the Member for Cockermouth do
reduce into heads or articles the several charges which he
has made in his place against Richard Lord Bishop of Bath
and Wells, and do present the said heads or articles to this
House." " After Mr. Horsman shall have presented the
heads or articles of his charges against the Bishop of Bath
and Wells, to move that the said heads or articles of charge
be referred to the Committee appointed to inquire into the
circumstances connected with the institution of the Rev. Mr.
Bennett to the vicarage of Frome, and that it be an instruc-
tion to the said Committee to report their opinion thereupon
to the House."
Mr. HORSMAN said it was his intention to proceed with
his motion. He did not mean to propose that the Committee
should consist of 18 Members, but 15—the three additional
names had been printed by mistake. He had already been
in communication with the Right Hon. Gentleman (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer), and had hoped that he would
allow him to nominate the Committee after the order of the
day for supply, to avoid the inconvenience of its coming on
at a late hour of the night. As to the other question of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, it was rather for the House to decide
than himself. The Right Hon. Member for Oxford Univer-
sity (Mr. Gladstone) had given notice of his intention to
move that the charges against the Bishop of Bath and Wells
be reduced into writing, and had stated that he was prepared
to show that what he proposed was in conformity with pre-
cedent. If the Right Hon. Gentleman did show that, and
if it were the pleasure of the House, he should bow to its
decision, and de all that lay in his power to conduct the in-
quiry in a manner satisfactory to the House and to the Right
Hon. Gentleman.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he wished
to facilitate the appointment of the Committee, if he could be
assured that no discussion would take place upon it ; but he
could not satisfy himself that this would be the case—(ltuearrs,
hear)—and at this period of the session, when its very h
were numbered, and there was such an amount of public bu-
siness, of course he must look to the business of most impor-
tance.— (Hear, hear.) However, he would watch the pro-
gress of public business, and if he could facilitate the appoint-
ment of the Committee, would do so ; but could not pledge
himself to permit the Hon. Gentleman to nominate it out of
its proper order.— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said,, as the Hon. Member did not ex-
press his assent to the motions of which he had given notice,
it would be necessary (as he deemed the question one of the
highest constitutional importance) to detain the Houip at
some length in supporting. these motions.—(A laugh.) lie
was prepared to perform his duty on the matter, and thought
it proper to give notice of his intentions.—(Hear.)
Mr. HORSMAN observed, that all the Members whose
names were in his notice had consented to serve.
Mr. GLADSTONE said the Hon. Member had forgotten
that he had distinctly stated that nothing could induce him
to serve on the Committee unless they proceeded according
to the established course of having the charges properly and
regularly placed before them.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, as his name was on
the list, he wished to atk the Hon. Member whether he
was one of those who bad consented to serve on the Com-
mittee ?—(llear, hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. HORSMAN said the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
suggesteil to substitute the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
name for one that had been struck out.—( Hear.)
The CHANCELL' IR of the EXCHEQUER said this was
only on the under-Standing that all the other gentlemen
whose names were on the list had consented to serve—
(Hear, hear)—and he bad distinctly understood from the
lion. Member that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Oxford University had agreed to sit cn the Corn-
mittee.—(Hear, hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, when the proper time
arrived, he had two questions to put to the Hon. Member be-
fore he could consent to serve on the Committee.
GRANT TO MAYNOOTIL

Mr. MONSELL said last week he had asked the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary why the annual vote
for the repairs of Maynooth College had been left out of the
estiamates for this year, to which the Right Hon. Gentle-
man replied, that the reason was that the late Government
did not consider that there were any circumstances which re-
quired such a rote, and they had, therefore, omitted to place
it on the estimates which the present Government had
adopted. He wished row to ark the Hon. Gentleman, the late
'Jailer-Secretary for the Treasury (Mr. C. Lewis), whether
it were not within his knowl3.lge that an estimate had been
sent in from the Board of Works, Ireland (the proper autho-
rity for the purpose), for the repairs of the college this year,
and whether the late Government had given any directions
for the omission of the annual grant for the college before
they went out of office.
Mr. C. LEWIS said in the course of last autumn the
usual circular was sent out from the Treasury to the dif-
ferent departments, calling upon them to furnish their re-
spective estimates, and before the late Government went out
of office the answer was received from the Irish Board of
Works, stating that a sum of 1,000/. or VOW. world be re •
quirel for the repairs of Maynooth College. Befcre the
change of Government took place the estimates had not been
prepared ; but no directions had been given for the omission
of the item from the estimates, and he had no reason to doubt
that if the late Government had continued in office the vote
would have beet proposed as usual to the House.—(Hear.)
THE 0 UTE AGE_UPON MR. MATHER.

On the Order of the Day for going into Committee of
Supply,
Lord J, RUSSELL rose and spoke as follows :—Sir, I am
at all times unwilling to bring questions relating to the
foreign policy of the Government before the attention of the
House, for I think that, generally speaking, it is difficult
to judge of the conduct of the Government as to particular
transactions in which they may have been concerned with
foreign powers— (Hear, hear)—and I am so little disposed
to press the Government upon this subject that when, the
other day, I asked the Noble Lord (Stanley) the Under-
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, if it were true that a protocol
had been signed with the great powers as to Neufchatel, and
whether it could be laid on the table—the Noble Lord
having informed me that there was such a protocol, which
he described as being one of considerable importance
—when he went on to say that it would not be desirable
to lay it on the table (meaning, I presume, that
reasons of public interest would prevent the Government
from laying ion the table)—l did not say one word more,
or press for its production. But in the case to which lam
about to call the attention of the House the Government
have of their own accord, without any pressure on the part of
the House of which 1 am aware, produced the correspondence
respecting an assault committed upon Mr. Erskine Mather at
Florence—a correspondence which was presented to both
houses "by command of her Majesty." And, Sir, having
read those papers, it could not but occur to me that if they
were left altogether unnoticed by Members of this House,
such gentlemen as might have the good fortune to be elected
for the next Parliament would be told that they had taken
no notice of these capers, though they had been presented to
Parliament in June, and that, therefore, it must be pre-
sumed that they had no fault to find with the conduct of
the Government. Now, Sir, upon reading these papers, it
appears to me that though it is not necessary nor advisable
to come to any resolution upon the subject, yet that it is
advisable that Members of the House should not be sup-
posed to be committed to the approbation of the course
that has been pursued; and, therefore, I think it neces-
sary to call the attention, of the House to the contents of
these papers. Sir, the House will recollect that at the end
of last December, two gentlemen of the name of Mather,
one of the age of 17 and the other 19, being in a crowded
street in Florence, and having attempted to cross between
a detachment of Austrian soldiers and the regimental band,
one of these gentlemen (the elder of them) received, first
a blow on the back, next a severe blow on the face, and,
when he was recovering from the blow, received a cut with
a sword, which opened his skull, and placed him in a
situation of such extreme danger that he was
carried to the hospital. I do not mean in any
danger of his life, but certainly seriously injured. A com-
plaint was made to my Noble Friend, Earl Granville, then
ereeSeelatary. of State for Foreign Affairs, who immediately
to tile to Mr. Scarlett, our acting mini-ter at Florence, and
e'Earl of Westmoreland, our ambassador at Vienna,
statilig
btlke facts
of the case. But in the meantime a dis-
patchiattl been received from Mr. Scarlett, stating that a
tion been
ciairn had been asked for, and had at his solieita-
iniftituted, and was to commence immediately.
Earl Granein:l7 therefore, wrote:
"I have n
heed a report from Mr. Scarlett, stating
that at his reogusreetee
by Mr. Mather:a:l4d in conformity with a desire expressed
Taman government has consented
to a judicial ink' the
I have, therefore, no official instruc-
tions to address to
; but if this inquiry is not
fairly conducted and her ou
..!_nce is used to suppress the truth,
the British Government he obliged to ask for reparation
for this outrage upon an will
ending and unarmed British
subject from Austria, roar
Majesty's GovernlPress the confident expecta-
tion of her
rn that such' reparation
will be promptly afforded b
Austrian G.overnment.
Y the ' ' "
Mr. Mather has understood end
,statedthat it was said in
the House by me, that there
be proceedings before
the regular 'bunals at FlorenSeund
tri , at 1 never said
thing. What I said was reported r. said any such
had been offered in Hansard, that
a judicial inquiry
then, Mr. Scarlett had d obtained the "tu the case. Thus,
then, Pilmaise of an inquiry,,
which was to be at once instituted, 9,
arising are—what was the nature of th: to_ first questions
be required? of 'mice, and what
was the reparation to the course the second
e offence was
wanton
.or un y
question depends entirely upon first. if the ...,.
of a certain nature, entirely. f ' P "61'eti kind
ired, but i it were , one
of reparation would be requ
ation l merely
wou a be yan ac-
cident, a different kind of reparation
in ' ury, the str. sufficient.
Now, Sir, as to the nature of the i
in g
t than Tintults made
by the two parties are more conflicting had at first
supposed. Mr. Mather states :
"On the forenoon of the 29th of last month
adeataelltaaut
of the infantry regiment Minsky was marching
hehsafeena
err, the
Via dei Martelli, preceded by its band. T
them (including Mr.
persons accompanied the music, some of
band 11-'•
Mather and his brother) walking between theand the
troops. An obstruction was created in a narrow part of the
street by the passage of a carriage. Mr. Mather came acci-
dentally in the way of the commander of the detachment,
Lieutenant Forsthuber, and admits that he may possibly
have touched that officer. He then received a blow from the
flat of M. Forsthnber's sabre on his back, and on turning
round indignantly to expostulate was struck in the face
by another with his fist. While staggering from this
blow he received a sabre-cut on the head from Lieutenant
Forsthuber, which wounded him so severely that his life
still
still in danger. He was then taken to the hospital/ and
lies there."
The account given by the Austrian officers is very different.
It is stated by the Austrian Minister :
" The detachment of infantry which, preceded by rani-
tary music, was mounting guard, was passing through the
narrow street which leads from the Via Large to the Piazza
del Duomo. There was a stoppage, and many people were
pushing themselves between the music and the troops, inso-
much that the latter were forced to shorten step. One man
in particular walked the whole time precisely before the
officer, who being in command of this detachment was in
the place prescribed to him by our military regulations, and
prevented him from continuing his progress. The officer
told him politely in Italian to give place to him, at the
same time touching him with his sabre, in order to make
him understand that he was speaking to him. ' This man
thereupon turned round, looked at the officer, but continued
to walk in the same manner. After this proceeding had
been several • times repeated, the officer became angry, and
forcibly thrust the man who prevented him from conti-
nuing march, . and who he could not but think did so with
mischievous intent, as he did n
politely. ot attend to words spoken
"Another officer who accompanied the guard, without
being on duty, gave (under a like
impression) another
to this individual, who turned
round with an irritated look
and was no other than tile Mather. Up on that Mr. Mather'
Putting himself in a boxing attitude advanced with isv d. h'
fist
towards the officer
_who uplifted ......wa11.,_
was on duty, and had his
. sabre in hand. The officer, who
certain' could not submit
to be treated after such a fashion, and Y.
wno was exposed to
the risk of receiving an outrageous insult
at the head of his
detachment, made use of his arms by
. wing Mr. Mather a
stroke of his sabre."
The House will see that there is the greatest difference be-
tween the two accounts.—(Hear, hear.) In the one case
,
- there appears to have been a Wan= and'lluPreveked ta -

T E

I tack— in the other case the officer had, if not a justification,
at least an excuse or palliation in this, that he imagined
Mr. Mather was about to strike him, and that he could
only prevent the dishonour of the insult by striking him
with his sword. Sir, I naturally looked to see what
was the character Lord Malmesbury gave to the transaction
—whether he took the one view or the other. It appears
to me that the one he might have taken, without deciding
the character of the transaction, was to have hadtheparatineas
who gave these two contradictory accounts confronted
examined. That is the way in which we proceed in this
country in similar cases. It appears, however, that this
t
case no such course was taken. It never seems o have oc-
curred to the Government to ask to have the facts ascer-
tained, although, on the one hand, Mr. Mather states
t e
solicitationk y
that the young man received the last blow while staggeringohtihleerside,itis
under the effect of the second; while, on
stated as positively that his menacing attitude provoked the
sword-cut. I will read what
Marshalappointed at the the House will observe that he sets aside the decision of the
Tuscan court of inquiry
Scarlett. The Marshal says—
Ra d
tof m
" On the 29th of December last, First Lieutenant Forsthu-
ber, marching at the head of his detachment directed to oc-
cupy the post at the. Palace, was passing through a narrow
street. At that instant the Englishman Mather placed
himself between the band and the commander of the detach-
ment. The latter, inconvenienced in his advance, intimated
to him to withdraw, first by a slight pressure with the flat
of his sword, and afterwards with his left hand, the first in-
timation having been ineffectual. In complying with this
injunction Mr. Blather, apparently without intention,
knocked against Lieutenant Baron de Barg, who, not being
on duty, was walking by the side of the detachment. The
latter had the imprudence to strike him a blow in the face
with his fist. The Englishman, irritated, turned round, in a
threatening attitude, and with his fist uplifted after the
manner of boxers, against First Lieutenant Forsthuber,
towards whom he advanced; when the latter, fearing to
be exposed to a dishonouring insult, from which it neces-
sarily behoved him to secure himself, struck him imme-
diately a blow on the head with the edge of his sabre. Mr.
carried
to thewound,r,whosehospita.
l moreover, did not seem serious, was
" Although the civilians heard as witnesses by the Tuscan
authorities do not represent the matter exactly as I have
stated it, inasmuch as they pretend not to have remarked,
or at least not to have perceived, the menacing attitude as-
sumed by Mr. Mather against First Lieutenant Forsthuber,
that circumstance is not the less proved by the depositions
of the soldiers : and there is the less doubt attaching to it,
inasmuch as all the civilian witnesses assert that Mather
was walking between the band and the detachment, and one
of them expressly declares that he had observed that a sharp
dispute had taken place between him and the officer in com-
mand.

" The character and previous conduct of First Lieutenant
Forsthuber not allowing me to suppose that he acted without
sufficient reason, I am of opinion that that officer was per-
fectly in the right, and that he absolutely did nothing but
what he was bound to do to defend himself from an outrage
and its inevitable consequences.
" That being the case, it is my opinion that, saving better
information, the conduct of First Lieutenant Forsthuber is
fully justified."

"'Unfortunately, I cannot say so much for Lieut. Baron de
Karg, who, by striking an Englishman in the face, without
cause, necessarily excited in him a degree of passion easily
to be accounted for, and who must consequently be considered
as being the principal cause of the menacing gesture of Mr.
Mather.

"Although in general the previous conduct of Lieut.
Baron de Karg i 3. equally altogether blameless, and although
the proceeding of that officer, who is moreover well-con-
ducted, cannot assuredly be attributed to anything but hasti-
ness, I have nevertheless caused him to be put under arrest
for a week."

Sir, this seems to me rather a peremptory declaration upon
the part of Marshal Radetzky.—("Hear, hear," from the
Liberals.) He is a person whom all Europe respects for his
gallantry and his character—(Loud cheers)—but he
seems to set at naught anythinglike civil testimony,
and to conclude that nothing but the evidence of
soldiers is worth heving—(flear, hear.) Not a word
do we hear, except as to the testimony of the
soldiers; and at the same time no pains are taken to have
that testimony; it is all to be taken on the word of the
Marshal himself, who ordered a separate' military inquiry;
and there ore no means of ascertaining whether the testi.
raony of the soldiers was entitled to credit, or whether it
were shaken or contradicted. But the Government having
taken no means to ascertAn the truth, one would think that
at least they would have decided themselves which was the
story to be believed, and that they would have said either
"horn is a most unprovoked assault (as Mr. Mather says);
or, "it Was a mere accident," occasioned by Mr. Mather
having placed himself in a provoking position, and a menac-
ing attitude, towards an Austrian officer at the head of his
detachment"— (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, I find on looking
through these
pages that Lord Malmesbury actually adopts
both these stories !—(Hear. hear, from the Liberals ; ironical
cheers from the Ministerialists.) He speaks of it sometimes
as an " unprovoked outrage ;" and at other times as an " ac-
cident, purely fortuitous."_(Opposition cheers). The
Noble Lord, writing to Mr. Scarlett, calls it an unprovoked
outrage, and says:—

Although it would unquestionably have been more satis-
factory to her Majesty's Government, and in their opinion
more cenducive to the ends of justice, if the party aggrieved
had been allowed to La present, either in person or by his
advocate, during the examination of the various witneses,
yet as it is stated that such a course wonid have been incon-
sistent with the practice observed in Tuscany in regard to
such matters, her Majesty's Government are content to take
the evidence as it has been communicated to then; and they
readily admit that as far as they can judge by the documents
the Tuscan authorities engaged in the inquiry appear to have
been actuated by a sincere desire to elicit the truth.

" Now the evidence which has thus been obtained con-
clusively establishes that a most unprovoked outrage was
committed on an unharmed and unoffending British subject
by an cfficer in command of a military party acting for Tus-
can purposes in the Tuscan dominions.
" But her Majesty's Government have such entire confi-
dence in the honourable and lust sentiments by which the
Grand Duke of Tuscany is distinguished, that they are satis-
fied that the Government of Tuscany must be anxious to
mark their abhorrence of this outrage inflicted upon an in-
nocent individual by a becoming reparation.
"And even if her Majesty's Government could take a
lenient view of the conduct of the Austrian officer, and con-
sider the blow inflicted by ihitn as the result of a misappre-
hension on his part, still it would be impossible for her Ma-
jesty's Government to release the Tuscan Government from
the performance of an international duty by. making repara-
tion to Mr. Mather for the personal insult and bodily suffer-
ing which he has sustained."
But when the Noble Lord writes to Lord Westmoreland he
speaks cf it as a " fortuitous accident :"--
"Her Majesty's Government entirely agree with his High-
ness that there ia no reason to believe that any national
feeling of animosity to Englishmen moved the Austrian
officer on duty to repel so hastily and with such violence an
anticipated affront from an unarmed man. It is equally cer-
tain that no object of private or personal malice provoked
the act.

"Assuming, therefore, with his Highness that it was
caused by a concourse of fortuitous and unfortunate cir-
cumstances' ( contours de circonstances fortuites et malheu-
reuses ), it is nevertheless the duty of the Tuscan Govern-
ment, on whose territories these occurred, to present the suf-
ferer with such pecuniary compensation as he would have
obtained in his own country if his life had been endangered
either by a premeditated or an accidental injury. With the
conviction that such a demand is consonant with those prin-
ciples of justice and humanity which are equally binding to
nations and individuals, her Majesty's Government has re-
quired of the Tuscan Government this reparation for the
severe sufferings and great peril which Mr. Mather has ex-
perienced."

Upon this Count Buol, very naturally (although the con-
duct of the Austrian Government has been most considerate
and respectful, so far as the British Government demanded
redress from them)--Count Buol, very naturally, writes thus
to the Noble Lord:
" Count Buol also stated that during the occupation of the
northern provinces of France by the allied armies, the soldiers
were not under the civil tribunals of that country. Count
' Buol added, that as the question at present stood, he did not
see that he could do more than wait for information from
Tuscany as to the line that Government had taken upon the
reply they had received from your Lordship ; and in the
meantime he would recommend an arrangement upon the
principle of compensation, not for an insult (for, according to
your Lordship's correspondence, that was not the ground
upon which you placed this question), but for an unfortunate
accident in which no nationality was concerned; and he
would at the same time state the disposition of the Emperor
(upon such an understanding) to come forward himself with
the proposition I have already mentioned for the arrangement
of this question." -
The House cannot but observe that when the Noble Lord
writes to Florence it is an " unprovoked assault ;" but when
he writes to Vienna it is " an unfortunate occurrence."—
(Cheers from the Opposition.) When the Noble Lord is
writing to Florence, however, there is a curious passage in
one of his dispatches which it is difficult to understand.
He says :
" You will thank Count Buol for his amicable offer re-
specting the Mather case, and state that I consider it as an
earnest of his friendly feelings towards this country and its
Government. You will, however, explain that as her Ma-
jesty's Government have always:insisted on the independence
of Tuscany, and its responsibility either to open her civil
courts to foreign plaintiffs, or, if she closes them, to enter-
tain the complaint through the executive, there would be
considerable awkwardness in our receiving compensation
from Austria, with whom we have had no official correspon-
dence in the matter. If Count Buol wishes to serve us in
this dispute he can best do so by giving his advice to Tus-
cany to refer the amount to an arbitration which Mr. Scar-
lett is instructed to propose at Florence. My determination
is that Mr. Mather should get what he would have ob-
tained from an English court had he been cut down at a
review in Hyde Park by accidently hustling a violent
soldier.

" I have before stated that there is no reason whatever to
suPpose that malice or any anti-English feeling stimulated
the act ; but certainly ninety-nine out of a hundred would,
under the circumstances, have only struck the supposed
?Slender with the hilt or flat of their sword. It was, there-
fore. a brutal act, although unpremeditated ; and as I under-
stand the skull of the sufferer is iujured, and he is not in
opulent circumstances, a pecuniary compensation is both an
ptutable and a legal demand on his part."
hucsattnn't understand how a man could be " cut down by
hnstlfna Soldier."—(Laughter from the Liberals.) The
n do g" Wight, perhaps, provoke the soldier to cat the
ma „vm, one can hardly speak of its beingac-
cident, that a “ violent soldier" should cut a man down.
thus However, after
all, Mr. Addington writes to Mr. Mather
—:

eudnraineritedaining
traiction of informing you, by the direc-
tion of the Earl of
flow negotiations with the that after long and yeas-
outit Tuscan Government, Mr- Scar-
for your son a practical
al et totn e ha::
ts uf
oerc et
he de
at Florence, by the. payment by brutal treatment he received
of 1,000 francesconi. AhreLels that Government of the sum
do not consider that this g" her Majesty's Government
sum .i. .
which Mr. Blather suffered, or
.oequivalent to the injury
Court would have awarded him ast
damn that which an English
and although it is less than Mr. Scarlett was instructed to
that Mr. Scarlett acted to the wit
~1,19A:e reason to believe
concluding the controversy!, of hie judgment in thus
This quite contradicts the idea of an „
accident." "An
unprovoked and brutal outrage" cannot be
accident may be violent, but if it be once an accident.7An
accident, that takes away its " brutal admitted to be an
," and it
have been au "unprovoked outrage. -_(fir) cannot
Thus t
it appears that with respcct to the very firs,, hen,
nature of the injury—whether it was an accident,
un-
provoked outrage, the Noble Lord. has nor!! or an
never been able to make aecidee has
up his mind !--(cbeer.
from
Opposition.) It is net surprising, then, that ti'eov the
meat having taken no store to ascertain the troth,
an., ern-
ther Mr. blather's account or Marshal Radetzkrs „uerwhe-
right one—it is not to be wondered at that they should the
have acted very consistently ac to the reparation to be 7)t.
tained. My Noble Friend Earl Granville had asked ample
reparation, and, though the Government of Tuscany were
xesponsible, my Noble Friend said if the inquiries instituted
, .. , • - ,