The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-19 00:00:00

CRIMINAL LUNATICS.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY, after presenting a
petition from the county of Leicester on this subject,
rose to move that a humble address be presented to her
Majesty praying that her Majesty will be graciously
pleased to take into her consideration the expediency of
the establishment of a state asylum for the care and
custody of those who are denominated " criminal luna-
tics." The Noble Earl proceeded to say that the sub-
ject he was about to introduce could not be novel to
their Lordships. The care and custody of criminal
lunatics had been a matter of groat interest, and con-
siderable care and attention had been bestowed by ma-
gistrates in various parts of the country to the improve-
ment of their asylums. Their attention had been
drawn to the fact that the presence of criminal lunatics
was a very great bar to the improvement of asylums.
The grievance had become intolerable; and he had been
requested to bring the subject before their Lordships.
He must, in the first place, exonerate the magis-
trates, because they had protested repeatedly against
this practice. He must also exonerate the Com-
missioners of Lunacy, because they had reported
at great length to the Lord Chancellor on the
subject, and proposed a remedy for the evil. More-
over, they had corresponded with the Secretary of
State, pointing out the great evils that had arisen
from the present system. The term " criminal luna-
tics" perhaps seemed to involve something of a con-
tradiction; but it was the ordinary and received term,
and it embraced every class and description of persons
and crime from the miserable idiot who had perpetrated
some enormous act of violence up to the case of the per-
sons who approached insanity, who simulated insanity,
and were perhaps in possession of their senses at the
time they committed the offence with which they had
been charged. The criminal lunatics might be divided
into four classes: the first consisted of those who had
actually become lunatic, at the time fixed for their trial.
The second class was composed of those who, being sane
at the time of their trial, were, by a special verdict,
found to be insane at the time of committing the offence.
The third class were persons who had become lunatic
after sentence had been passed upon them. Now, there
was a fourth class of persons who were confined under
summary conviction—vagrants, and persons convicted
for want of sureties, and who had become insane. The
laws whereby these parties were dealt with and their
detention fixed, were contained in three statutes, viz.,
the 39th and 40th Geo. 111., the Ist and 2d of Vic.,
and the 3d and 4th of Vic. The Noble Earl ex-
'plained the nature of those statutes, and proceeded
to say that there was another class of lunatics,
which consisted of persons who might be in danger
of committing some offence. Formerly any magis-
trate might commit them to a gaol or a place of custody;
but by a late Act it required that two justices should
commit such person, and that he should be committed,
not to a gaol, but sent to a lunatio asylum or a place of
safe custody. None of these parties, except those com-
mitted by the magistrates, could be liberated without
the authority of the Secretary of State. Now, he
would state the number of criminal lunatics. The total
number of criminal lunatics in England and Wales was
439,360 males, and 79 females. But their Lordships
must observe, that when they came to look at the num-
bers, and examined the offences with which the lunatics
were charged, they would find that the offences were
against life, and under that head they included, not
only simple aessalts, but everything that was directed at
life—shooting, cutting, and maiming—their Lordships
would find that, for those offences, the number was 138;
for offences against property and against the person, some
of the latter being of the grossest description, the num-
ber was 188, 163 males and 25 females. The number of
persons convicted of misdemenour was 48; and of those
committed for want of sureties, and who had otherwise
become insane, 43. Their Lordships must not suppose
that although those persons were committed for
want of sureties, they were not dangerous persons,
as he should show that many of them were most
dangerous. Now, these criminal lunatics were distri-
buted in various asylums, and were maintained by the
Government. In Bethlem Hospital there were main-
tained at the Government expense 103 criminal lunatics.
At an asylum near Salisbury there were 57. The ge-
neral treatment of these patients he would next refer
to. The House might judge, in some measure, the evil
effect produced by the presence of these patients among
the other lunatics. Let their Lordships consider the
former life and habits of these parties, who were desig7
nated criminal lunatics. They had pursued a long course
of evil and profligacy, of theft and murder; and the
House must recollect that the lunacy under which they
laboured was often the effect of their own excesses; and
their Lordships would imagine such patients being in-
troduced among the quiet, orderly, timid, and sensitive
lunatics in an asylum, because many of the lunatics were
well-conducted patients—very timid and sensitive, and
the predominant feeling in all their minds was, that the
place they were confined in was a prison, and that they
were sent there for punishment. Upon being associated
with notorious parsons, who had committed crimes of
that description, such a feeling was strengthened; their
minds were worked upon; and the impression which
was thus produced upon them alone tended to
retard their recovery. But, that their Lordships might
form some estimate of the characters of these persons
who were confined in such places, he would state some
of the offences which they had committed. In the asy-
lum at Manchester there was a violent man who had
committed a murder. The next case was for an assault
—an attempt to shoot a clergyman; the next was a case
of stabbing; and another party was described as treache-
rous, malignant, and revengeful; another had stabbed
his brother, and so on. Their Lordships walldnsont.,
then, wonder at the strong language of the medical
perintendents against the further detention of
ordinary
o
minal lunatics along with other patients
inions of the
those cri-
asylums. He had an extract of the "
asylum, and a
medical superintendents of every public
ittme,
great many of those of private as Now,
and they were
the opinions of eminent and experiencegs6ciate psons branded
they said it was unjust to
that the conduct of
Y men.
with offences with other lunatics;
yiolent; that their
were injurious
criminal lunatics was frequently
habits, from their former
courseyeorl
the
oother patients; that it was neces-
sary, pernicious to
f their presence, to exercise
sary, in consequenacned
firmness; and that the whole
greater vigilance and
ofw was
she asylum was interfered with.
disclipine and order
to expose the lunatics them-
selves said the le
d that they were irritated when they
totaunts, an
selves
saw other persons liberated and they themselves de-
tained;
that they endeavoured to escape, and to induce
others
ato assist them; and that these patients monopo-
lisedundue share of care. But they added this ex-
lanatory sentence, which completely destroyed the
other parts of the evidence—" We have always taken
care to conceal from the other patients the fact that the
persons they were confined with were criminal lunatics."
Then, in the report of that admirable institution, the Han-
well asylum, it was stated that the prisoner in the gaol
knew he could not escape, but the criminal lunatic
thought he might escape from the asylum; and he,
therefore, simulated insanity in order to get into the
asylum. There was this peculiarity about insane per-
sons, that they were wholly unable to combine, but they
would follow others. Now the remedy that ho
proposed for this state of things was that there
should be a state asylum for the separate
care and custody of those persons called
criminal lunatics. This remedy, ho thought, was uni- '
versally recommended by the medical superintendents.
There were many questions which it would be necessary
to discuss before such a measure could be brought before
their Lordships. In the first place, they would have to
consider whether it should be maintained by the state

or by local rates, and whether some discretionary power
should not be,given to the Secretary or State as to the
liberation of the prisoners. The law said, that no party
confined as a criminal lunatic could be liberated unless
two medical men would certify that such party was of
sound mind. Now, there were many persons whom they
could certify might be liberated with perfect safety, but
whom they could not certify to be of sound mind. They
would have therefore to consider whether such persons
should be liberated. And, moreover, they wculd have
to consider, sooner or later, how far the plea of insanity
was to be admitted. There could be no doubt there was
in the present day a great tendency, both with judges
and juries, to admit that plea. There were, he believed,
persons who openly avowed that they could do what
they pleased. They felt that whatever offence
they might commit, they had the plea of previous in-
sanity to save them from the consequences, and that all
they had to fear was confinement for life. The Noble
Lord concluded by moving the resolution, that a
humble address be presented to her Majesty, to cause
inquiries to bo made as to the expediency of esta-
blishing a state asylum for the confinement of lunatic
prisoners.

- Lord BERNERS said, reluctant as he was to trespass
on their Lordships' time, he felt it his duty, as one of
the chairmen of quarter sessions, in the county of
Leicester, to state that the petition was agreed to unani-
mously, by one of the fullest benches he had ever seen in
the county.
The Earl of DERBY said the Noble Earl who had
introduced this subject could have no necessity for
making any apology for directing their Lordships' atten-
tion to a matter of considerable and deep importance,
because for a long period he had devoted his unremitting
attention to matters, some of them of the most repul-
sive character, with a view of ameliorating the condition
of his fellow-creatures. Nor did he suppose that any
of their Lordships would be disposed for a moment
to undervalue the immense improvements which had
of late years been introduced in the system of
treating lunatics. He believed there had been no greater
improvement within the last few years in any science
than in that of alleviating the condition of insane per-
, sons. He believed that the sufferings of such persons
had been greatly diminished, and that there had been a
great gain in the proportion recovered, and therefore he
, was quite sure that neither on his part nor on that of
their Lordships, could there be any desire to interfere in
the slightest degree with the humane system of treating
lanatics. But he confessed he was at a loss to see the
connexion which his Noble Friend appeared to find be-
tween the existence of that treatment, which was gene-
rally followed in lunatic asylums in this country, with
the peculiar question that he had brought under the con-
sideration of the House. His Noble Friend adverted to
that which was undoubtedly an anomaly; an expression
which he might almost say was a contradiction in terms.
To say that a man was a criminal, was to say that he
was responsible for his actions; and to say that he was
a lunatic, was to say that he was irresponsible; and,
therefore, he saw some difficulty in drawing a
line which his Noble Friend seemed inclined to draw
between criminal lunatics and other lunatics. He
thought it would be necessary to apply the same prin-
ciple that he applied to criminal lunatics to all those
who were violent and dangerous, for the only difference
was, that one of them had committed that which, if he had
been in a sane state of mind, would have made him liable
to punishment, and another was in the same condition
I of mind, bat had not had the opportunity of doing that
which would make him liable to punishment. He was
at a loss to understand on what principle the law had
been regulated as to the two classes—those who were
, dealt with by the 39th and 40th George 111., namely,
, persons who had been found not guilty of the offences
on which they were charged on the ground of insanity,
and those who, under similar circumstances, had been
similarly dealt with under the Act of tho 3d and 4th of
I the Queen, and persons who before trial had been found
• in fact to be lunatic, and thereupon, without being tried
and without the necessity at the verdict of a jury, had
been, by the authority of two magistrates, and with the
sanction of two medical men, transferred to a lunatic
asylum. He was unable to account for the distinction with
• which these two classes of persons wore treated. There
were between 450 and 470 of all descriptions of cri-
minal lunatics, and of these about 100 were maintained
in the two wings of Bethlehem Hospital which were
built specially for the confinement of criminal lunatics,
at the expense of the country, and these lunatics confined
there were maintained at the expense of the country,
and there were a number maintained also at the expense
of the Government at an asylum at Fisherham (as we
understood), near Salisbury. There were others that
were distributed in other asylums throughout the
country, who were maintained by the respepcatirvihe
escog toun-
ties in which the asylum was, or by the
which they belonged. There could be no ground for
this distinction. He was clearly of opinion that the
charge of criminal lunatics ought not to fall on the
county or the parish, but ought to fall on the country
generally. Therefore, he did not pretend to say that he
thought the existing law was in a satisfactory condition,
or that it did not stand in need of some amendment. He
thought the maintenance of these criminals was an ex-
pense that might justly and rightly fall on the public
funds. But when they came to that point they ought
also to consider how difficult it was to stop there,
and how they could draw the line between criminal
lunatics and violent and dangerous lunatics.
His Noble Friend said that the presence of
these criminal lunatics among these who were merely la-
bouring under harmless delusions was injurious to both
parties. He agreed with him—but where was the county
lunatic asylum in which they were so mixed together?
If they were, it was against all the rules governing
lunatic asylums. The Noble Lord moved for an ad-
dress, because if he brought a Bill in that House it would
be an infringement of the privileges of the House of
Commons, inasmuch as it would involve the application
of a sum of money for the maintenance of these esta-
blishments. Surely, if that were the case, an address
to the Crown recommending such establishments was
equally open to objection.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY—No; for an inquiry
to consider the expediency,
The Earl of DERBY proceeded. Going no further on
that subject, he said that until they had fully consi-
dered all the consequences, all the difficulty of drawing
the distinction between the two classes, while he quite
agreed with the Noble Earl that it might be expedient
and desirable to inquire into the law relating to the
custody of lunatics, be thought it would be exceedingly
undesirable to pledge their Lordships with regard to
one portion, and not the most material portion of an
alteration in the law. The expense of building the two
wings at Bethlehem must have been considerable; the
cost of the maintenance of the lunatics there was 341
10s. a head per annum; at Fisherhans it was 301.; and
in other institutions, he believed it was about 261. In
addition to the increased expenditure of maintenance,
which would, in all probability, be the consequence of a
Government establishment, the cost of such a building
as his Noble Friend contemplated would probably be
more than 50,0001, and might be near 100,0001.; and he
did not see why, in well regulated county asylums, they
might not effect the object by classifying criminal luna-
tics, as well as they could effect it in any state asylum.
The subject had been considered by a former Govern-
ment, and would be considered by the present, and he
hoped that his Noble Friend would be satisfied with the
assurance, on the part of the Government, that this sub-
ject should not be lost sight of, and that he would not
think it necessary to call on their Lordships to pledge
the House on the subject.
Lord ORAN vvowra said he hoped, after the assu-
rance of the Noble Earl who had just sat down, that his
Noble Friend would not object to withdraw the motion.
His Noble Friend stated some doubts whether the whole
law on the subject of the plea of insanity was not alto-
gether on an unsatisfactory footing. His Noble Friend
said it was the habit, both of judges and juries, to avoid
responsibility by allowing this plea. Perhaps, as having
had the honour, for a long number of years, of filling
the station of one of the judges administering criminal
ioqs
miuo ens teoi
leaving
fv g
justice, he (Lord Cranworth) might be supposed to speak
with some prejudice; but ho must conscientiously say
that be thought his Noble Friend was quite wrongi
supposing that there was the least bias of the kind
re-
ferred to in the minds of the judges. On the contrary,
bound
it was the feeling of the judges that they
to
f
nd he was sure
jurieseland
He had found this in his own practice,:_
his
brethren
obstacle
responsibilities.—(
stpo 0
bt
ieb
teiqeua.e_nwt:Htreeenarr
bcoya
that that was the universal feeling f
on the bench.
about to be taken into
hazard an opinion as
than idle to
might be worse As the
the alteration of the law ought
to what the character quefsutiloln
iefd the subject, he did not besi-
unouoswiderraaitsieocila, wasi
to be; but, having
at
rhtiahstientghdeefer
question
juries.—(Hear,
tluanteactyo
oughtex p r e s
nots f 3h i
oat
bear.)
decidedr.bu)e
tTrnotpeeidnv
lotsno
the question
saes
jputerhryes
would
oLbuelodirndgshtried to be
mixed up with the simple question of guilty
or not
Lordships
knew,
compromise
their difficulty by acquitting a prisoner on the ground of
gi is ieleteyquweenrtelyvehraypgpreenaetd; and,th a
insanity. And this happened in numberless instances
in which, as he (Lord iCranworth) believed, there was
no ground whatever for the conclusion as to the in-
sanity.—(Hear, hear.)
His proposal to remedy this evil
distinctlywas t i s
in Cases
referencein t h
to
the criminal f
ae fact,
courts
guilty should o r
not be
guilty,tried
of the offence; and, the right being permitted to the
jury, on finding a man guilty, to observe upon their be-
lief of the insanity; this question would afterwards pro-
perly come to be inquired into ,before another tribunal
which should be free from the prejudices which no doubt
did operate upon ordinary juries. What this tribunal
should be—whether composed of the Secretary of State,
and some other high functionary, or of medical
men—he would not now say, but that tribunal, he was
convinced, ought not to be an ordinary jury.—(Hear,
hear.) At present, because juries were permitted to de-
cide on the lunacy of a criminal, there were continual
violations of oaths. And this ought to be stopped; for
it defeated the ends ofjustics.—(Hear, hear.) What had
been stated by his Noble Friend convinced him that
nothing could be more mischievous than to mix criminal
lunatics with other lunatics. There was not, perhaps a
distinction in genus between criminal lunatics and other
maladylunatics, exceptof
the
mind in
itnhdis:btdhaotf the imagination, the , lunacy being pre-eminently
a
ming-
ling of a lunatic who had committed no crime with per-
sons guilty of crimes had a tendency to retard recovery.
The Noble Lord opposite had said that there was a con-
fusion in terms in speaking of " criminal lunatics." No
doubt there was; but he (Lord Cranworth) ehould like
to know, in those classes, how many were criminals and
how many were lunatics.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The error of expression was in using the word "lunatic."
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY replied, expressing
his satisfaction with the speeches of Lords Derby and
Cranworth, and consenting to withdraw the motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn, and their
Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 18.
Tha brEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.

NEW MEMBER.
Mr. CoGAN took the oaths and his seat for Kildare, in
the room of Lord Naas.
OXFORD, WORCESTER, AND WOLVERHAMP-

TON RAILWAY.
Mr. DU PRE moved the second reading of this Bill,
and said the scheme which it embraced was highly
approved of by every landholder on the line. It bad, in
fact, met with the universal assent of all classes.
The Bill was read a second time and ordered to be
committed.

PETITIONS.
Colonel SIBTHORP presented a petition from the
postmasters of Lincoln, praying for the immediate re-
peal of the post-horse duty.
Mr. S. ORA WFORD presented petitions from several
Irish counties in favour of his Tenant Right Bill.
Several petitions were presented in favour of an ad-
justment of the burdens that press unduly upon the
agricultural interest.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Manchester
in favour of Parliamentary reform, and especially pray-
ing for vote by ballot.
Mr. DIVETT presented a similar petition from
Exeter. . _

Sir G. PECHELL presented a petition from Brighter.
praying for the repeal of the taxes on knowledge.
Admiral BOWLES presented a petition from Mont-
gomery against the Maynooth grant.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS presented a petition from Law"
both in favour of the Pharmacy Bill.
Sir WILLIAM MOLES WORTH presented & petition
from the Newfoundland National Assembly, praying the
House to pass a law to invest them with the
power of
local self-government.
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from Pere°°l
resident in Manchester having an income of less than
1501. a year, stating that as they had felt the beneficial
effects of cheap bread which free trade bad given
them, they hoped the House would not scruple
in extending the income-tax to thew. the
Hon. Gentleman also presented a petition from Sunder-
land, praying for the repeal of the taxes on knowledge.
Mr. COWAN presented several petitions from varies?
places in Scotland against the income-tax. Also Peti-
tions signed by the Lord Provost of Glasgow, paltYwEP
for the repeal of the Maynooth grant.
Mr. HUME presented a large number of 006°1/5
from parishes in Suffolk, praying for the repeal of the
malt-tax.

MARBLE ARCH.
On the motion of Col. SIB THORP, a return wail,
ordered of the expenses attendant upon the removal °`
the marble arch, and the alterations of Buckingham
Palace.

NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
Mr. M. MILNES gave notice that this day fortnight
he should bring forward a resolution respecting the
respondence with with the Austrian Government on the sub'
ject of foreign refugees.
Mr. D'EYNCOURT gave notice that that this day
fortnight he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to
shorten the duration of Parliaments.
Sir H. W. BARRON gave notice that on an o°ll
day he would call the attention of the House to the dis-
tressed condition of the people of Ireland.
Mr. HEYWOOD gave notice that this day fortnight,
he should move a resolution to the effect that the Cry
sti“
Palace be retained and devoted to the purposes of the
instruction and amusement of the people. -
RETURNS.
On the motion of Mr. ANDERSON, a return was
agreed to of the registered number of steam-vessela on
the Ist of January, 1852.
On the motion of Mr. ANSTEY, a return was agree
to of all religious, educational, or charitable institutions
permanently endowed out of the public revenues.
On the motion of Mr. G. THOMPSON, a return 046
agreed to of the quantity of coals supplied to the navy
and ordnance, and also to Government offices.
OUTRAGE UPON A BRITISH OFFICER
ABROAD.
Colonel RA.WDON said ho had seen a letter which
mentioned that a British officer in full uniform, belonging
to the Royal Marines, had been cut down at Legh°ll
by the Austrian authorities. The letter was date
Florence on the 11th of this month. He wished te,
know whether the Government were in possession ei
any information respecting the transaction?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be
believed it was quite incorrect that a British
officer in full uniform had been cut down at Leghorn by
the Austrian authorities. Information had reached the
Government that a petty officer in the Marines, being
on leave at Leghorn, had been extremely maltreated u,_Ye
the Tuscan police. The captain of her Majesty's vessel ttll,
Firebrand immediately communicated with Mr. Searle
the British Minister at Florence. Considerable corres-
pondence had taken place between Mr. Scarlett and thee
l
Austrian Government, and the head of the Ttleceo
police, who was involved in the transaction, bad bee
s.
imprisoned for eight days. That was all the in
Lion that had reached the Government.
Lord PALMERSTON wished to put a question
.111,_
some way connected with this affair. Some consideros
time ago an unmanly outrage, of a very aggravated se
boa
ratter, was made upon a British subject. It
attack by an armed officer at the head of a regliwshed
on an unarmed British subject at Florence. fie insisted
to know whether the Tuscan Government bad iscon-
any punishment upon the officer who had so !non bad
ducted himself, or whether any other reparatt
been made to the British Crown?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCllc'Qel notice of
hmiisnciduedesttihoen,NboubltehLe ohraddthwat
rheepihyad
th Govern'
had insisted upon reparation from ththanet°tTgt:i
ment. The correspondence which had Wll red the
be
proaching to a speedy termination, and be gear.)
result would be satisfactory to the liouse.—•‘ _ for the
Lord J. RUSSELL a.ked whether reparationnwe_q
injury had been promised by the Tuscan Gover
ssil,srbe
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, if the
should be able to give a more satisfactory gear,)
Noble Noble Lord would give notice of his question.--4
eveGai vA ewr ng
sn3 pe art

newMrt.hellyneMoEmew.tiushxecdutmo kmnitotwee
INCOME-Tiff itt AX.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 651'
bhould have no objection to such a proceeding•
IRISH VALUATIONS.
uwiarys ionfteisnedtecyles.torlrbe-0

In re to Mr. SCULLY,-
The AT ply
TOB,NEYGENERAL for Ireland stated tilt)
ilt
!
t was the intention of Government to introduce a
on the subject of the tax valuations in Ireland.
THE ESTIMATES.
Mr. HUME said the House had dread y voted. the Men
and money for the navy in an extraordinary manner, end
he wanted to know w at was intended to be done in re-
ference to the income-tax, which would expire shortly.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said due
notice would be given of any financial statement which
should hereafter be made by the Government.—( laugh.)
IRISH SAVINGS BANKS.
Mr. REYNOLDS then rose to move that this House
do, on Tuesday, the 23d day of March, resolve itself into a
Committee, to consider of the losses sustained by the suf-
ferers in the late Cuffeestreet Savings Bank, Dublin, and
to move that an humble address be presented to her Most
Graciousaey, praying that her Majesty may be
pleased to (tajkest into her Royal consideration, and to
grant them a compensation for their losses,afftsetnandreot
,end
dt
set
as-
sure her Majesty that this House will make good_ le
dsaemfeea.tinlgnhaerfomrma
jeerstsyes,asion
from ,h
otnh et
hh questonoury, osfu
j.twicec,
but the defeat was not followed by. a rer
The evernment of therday, day
Majesty that he should fell
laugh.) He might as w Ministersi e bad
of this motion was to recov the balance of 30,0001.
m confess a ll ina
at 8 oncetry;---t h(
which was due to 1,971 depesditers of the es ee
%Atte-street
Bank, and he made the dern_tr
Gnot as an act of charity,
by the term
were aware of the insolvency of the bank long before
the crisis came, but it was kept from the depositors
, but as a matter of right.
through motives of public policy, Air.
. iligham made
that statement before the Committee which sat in
when“ he was
1848, 1849, and 1850; and
,a,skbode
f what be meant
said, if the insolvency had been d" public policy.
..
tors it might have produced disclosed to the deposi..
the savings-banks in the kingdom. a panic and a run upon all
make out was a plain On The case be had to
h the
fraudulent negligence 6; the bank failed thr°llg
Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer of the managers, and the 'legally liable equer for the time being had become
before the for the payment of the deposits
defalcations
Both lawyers were known.—(Hear, hear.)
that the d and laymen had given it as their opini°.°
depositors ought to be aid public
exchequer out of ,the
and an instalment of 301:0001 had in fact been
paid to them.—(Hear, hear.) There could be ao
thendoubt. of the justice of this case, and he contended that
the time had arrived when the other 30,0001.
ought to be made good by the State.—(Hear, bear.)
At this bank the deficiency in the amount of deposits
was 56,2291. 16s. 4d. The number which received a, di-
vidend of 10s. in the pound was 1,927, and the misery
which was occasioned by the insolveney of the bank
would bo understood when he stated that two-thirde
of the depositors were females, who, by depositing small
sums of money in the institution, thought they wel
preparing for a rainy day. However, by the winking.°
the authorities on this side of the Channel and to
e
frauds committed on the other side, the insolvencY,
of the bank was suppressed, and the poor people CNA"
themselves victimized in 1848. It had been admitted
that the insolvency of the bank was known from 1833,
and that the fact had been suppressed by the
Commissioners on the grounds of public policy,
as they feared if it got into circulation there
would be a run upon all similar banks in
Ireland. He had always treated the 30,000/. given to
the unfortunate depositors by the House as an instal-
ment, not as is final settlement of their claim. VC 11'1
the Commissioners sacrificed their money (de the group
of public policy the House ought in justice to have
given ample compensation. The House could not
act on the principle of charity. The peep'''.
were either entitled to the whole or they were not, altod
!
if not entitles to the whole, the House was not juAit3e
in voting them a single shifting. The Hon. IleiiiPer
concluded by moving the resolution. -
id,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 'a
aid,
this was one of those distressing cases with which every
Member symptchised. No doubt a considerable poriictt,
ot her Majesty's subjects belongine• to the poorer classes
had suffered very much by the failure of the Cufftestree
Bank. He was surprised that when the Hors. Dlt usher
was so indignant with branches of the Administration
_ine
Ireland, he had spared the managers and trustees of tb,
bank, whose conduct was certainly as flagrant ei,a,,a_.
infamous as could well be imagined.—(Hear,
bear.)
.1:_t:
did not think any one could contend that it wforo
_1,"0
duty of the Government to come forward and al*
•want
amends for the want of ability
Of 'tioild
of faith of the managers of these instirtucriu _
The only ground the House could have for lute
tfunce.
in ,he Cuff -street Bank was the peculiar circuraygo._
.1:f
which distinguished it from other cases. T.heyernt!
~t
30,000/, was brought forward by the 6-o ur,'_..
final se Liu
and accepted by rho majority as a .
up doubts
meat of the question. lie had aerie

whet
ral,ki
beet,
kern
Of th

If
"at

Yet b
tion,
Dab!

1
1.41 t
Itix
At

I

Zetiher strictly the Government were justified in
bee 13g any grant; but seeing that 30,0001. had already
tied voted, he felt, though sympathising as much as any
of !'en,Nvith the sufferers, boned to oppose the motion
the 11013. Member. 1
G,.t• HERBERT thought that as the Right Hon.
3,tnia
t have
the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not
, e had time to consider all the details of the ques-
ba"byr would have been better if the Hon. Member for
th had delayed a little bringing the question for-
14rd.
105, He did not deny that, in the present case, the
bad arisen from the want of ability and want of
4e°:"tY on the part of the trustees; but it ought to ne
ollected that the Act passed by the House in 1844
d
ti vtaken away the responsibility of the trustees, and
stil°t given any protection to the depositors against
thc of honesty on the part of trustees. He admitted
huit there was no case in which depositors in savings banks
lc been compensated by the Govercment in ease of
thellre; but he might remind the ChancAlor of the Ex-
it, cllter that compensation had been granted to the suf-
wee" by the Exchequer-bill frauds of 1842. True, they
wp rich merchants, and mot pour men. He had heard
the satisfaction that the whole subject was to receive
u attention of the Government. That being the case,
tire Would advise the Hon. Member for Dublin to with-
6P, hie motion for the present.
re ue ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND re-
thraelended the Hon. Member for Dublin to withdraw
:motion, and said a few words in explanation of the
k4l'lliens he had expressed on the question. He still re-
hed those opinions, and had formed them in conse-
teeece - - or the admissions in the report that the Commis-
-o._ Lets for the Reduction of the National Debt had not
eercised the powers with which they were entrusted.
th
tiuldit fi question was of more importance to the communhity
ikat of savings bat,ks, and he rejoiced to knowt at
ie Chancellor of the Exchequer was about to direct
It attention to the subject. He hoped—indeed he bad
realign to believe—that arrangements were in contempla-
40h for putting those institutions on a basis which would
tire that security to depositors to which they were en-
Idled. Under these circumstoneea he recommended
the Honourable Member for Dublin not to press the
motion to a division.
HUME concurred with the Right Hon. and
,4herned Gentleman, that the loss in this case had arisen '
ee
trd the fault of the public officers. That being the
4414, the responsibility in his opinion fell ultimately on
aid told
As the Chancellor of the Exchequer
~‘rl told them that the whole question would be cousi-
",e,ted, be recommended the Hon. Member for Dublna to
withdraw his motion.
Sir
H. WILLOUGHBY was one of those who bad
it" ,`l.!eted to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer paying
The grant of public money on the ground of charity.
be! Commissioners for the Reduction of the National
t ut had neglected their duty in showing the bank to re-
deposits when they ought to have known that it was
I,lseivent, having already voted 30,0001., the House
Iln°llnd, he thought, to vote the remaining 34,0001.
llt-,.tuln divide with the Hun. Member for Duunn if
rreased his motion to a division, but atter what bad
gl sealbe would advise the Hun. Gentleman to with.
drtw it.
SCIILLy thought the motion was one which
t, "'`•, not with justice be resisted. The report of the
Itoalrnittee showed that the Cuffee-street Savings Bank
149 in a different position from the other cases of
is banks which bad failed. The grant of 30.0001.
Mete was was an admission that such was the case. There
it p" the same grounds now as in that year, for grant-
re,,,,e,°r9ensation, and if the Hon. Member divided he
)31(1 vote with him.
It r 1 GROGAN said he had heard with much plea-
t 4,4, the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
full the whole question of the savings banks was to be
lect,,➢ e°neidered by the Government, but he regretted to
Rkrii"3 Right Hoe. Gentleman declaring that he re-
V'ed the case of the depositors in the Cuffe-street
;:11,0 Bank as finally settled by the grant of 30.000/.
tt been thought right to grant that sum, he was
hill„,:",a to conceive why the remaining 10s. in the
tAu'u Should be refused. His Hon. Colleague might
11,- brought that question prematurely before the
of ',tile, but that circumstance could not affect the justice
~,tee case.
tn,q4. W. WILLIAMS said it appeared to him to be
1'44 desirable that the Government should without any
ela
Y take into their consideration the expediency of
-slrirs• in •t• law with respect to
itv;,, 6, a change the existing
tle,„"lu banks, in order to protect the public as well as
-reteto,s.
E fir, REYNOLDS replied. If the Chancellor of the
tl4,7equer would give him an assurance that he would,
leWalleg the present session of Parliament, reconsider that
„ teen, en
without pledging himselt to any particular
p°r;r6e with respect to it, he (Mr. Reynolds) should not
11 his motion to a division; but without some such
d4raLce on the part of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he
tioolild deem it his duty to divide the House on the ques-
-4' Re found on the benches opposite seven Hon.
Embers who had voted with him on that subject in the
4t;,41850. Among them was the Noble Lord the Metn-
li,or Tyrone (Lord C. Hamilton), the Hon. and Gel-
b'" Colonel the Member for Portarlington (Colonel
bp-K4,e). the Honourable Member for the University of
11—" e• (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), and the colleague of that
li3laeurable Member, the Attorney-General for Ireland.
114 latter Honourable and Learned Gentleman
4 Promised his constituents at the period of his
tl;i,.„,`"tintt that he would continue to advocate the
t 0 C.' 01 those depositors; he had also pledged himself
(fir. Reynolds) that he would second that mo-
c„, and like an honourable and honest man he had
thk: evening redeemed his pledge. He regretted to find
413 the eloquence of the first law officer of the Crown
IL "'eland appeared to have produced so little effect on
t: Chancellor of the Exchequer; and he could not help
li4reBBtllg a hope that her Majesty's Ministers would
to their Irish advisers, whenever the counsel they
give should be of a benevolent character.
House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... •••
.40

Againet it ••• ••• ..•
Majority against the motion•
-129
'ATRIAL AND PROVIDENT PAR MEE-
kr k SHIPS.
Ita • ..,LANEY, after having presented two petitions
1141 Leeds and another place in favour of a measure for
lapwing the formation of industrial and provident part-
iij )Ps, proceeded to move for leave to introduce a
isienr the purpose of carrying out that object. He
Pett it was meat desirable to afford the middle and
kw, classes the means of safely investing their
tee Bs for their own benefit. That subject had al-
of ttlY attracted on several occasions the consideration
01k,...e Rouse. In the course of the last session he bad
of "*d a Committee which bad inquired into the law
brtnership, and the obstacles which that law threw
kit 06 way of investments by the bumbler classes, and
tlist?lnmittee had recommended the removal of those
Doe"'lea• Under the existing system if a number of
r.
pot
People, were to put their savings together, and if
krtnaingle person among them were to take hold of the
%liii.Zrtsbip property, there was no tribunal before
kiemne could be brought to answer for his misdeed,
there was no mode by which any dispute between
t Parties could be decided. His object was to devise
e,
Oftl;""Y for that evil. He asked that the provisions
tothie Friendly Society Act, the 13th and 14th of Vic•
P 472 might be extended to the industrial and provident
ijaerships among the humbler classes.
litt II the motion of an Hort. MEMBER the House was
al 6 counted • but it having been ascertained that
ere ,
tit were 40 Members present the sitting was con-
tled.
to kb s
gmLint,A...tNohEe Yuillth. en concluded by moving for leave
Trhen
, been seconded,
Mr. WALIta"" there was on
tver to allow thetesa(lno objection what-
, e subject, ththe detailsn Gentleman to bring in a Btu
lature stage. of which could be discussed at a
Leave was accordin
• gL`;" given to bring in the Bill.
PUBLIC
LIBRARIES.
Xr. EWART moved the re_anointment of a Com-
eon 'ittepublic libraries, fur
furtherreturnS the purpose of print-
relative to public libraries abroad.—
greed to.
Ee
ei Rt
0. bringldA
N D.
a
ARTERIAL DRAINfAcrG
41.1% FRENCH, in movingßill
d the Acts relating to arterial drainage in Ire-
rati amend the
observed thatA the system at present in
ha_r operation ininisters to the
.I.,_nonntry gave great dissatisfaction,the existing
litr'l.beiog at present in a state of,
atAgetd the attention of her Majesty
s suspension. Be
of the law; and, whether he obtained leave to
41 ILIII" this Bill or not, his object would be gained if
tO • 4tajesty's•Govirnment would turn their attention
t.
4111;11119,PRANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
vei4,,e" had been under the consideration of the late Go-
eet;46l6tit, as he had found • papers referring to it on
be„,.,"13 into office. His Right Hon. Friend the Attor
ii‘vneral for Ireland was fully
0;4 0/ 'the subject, and he (the Chancellor oathe Ex-
awareof the import-
%otter) could, assure the Hon. Gentleman opposite that
uttera would not fail to engage the attention of her
l44tY's !Meister.
r• FRENCH then withdrew his motion.
THE LATE ATTACK ON LAGOS. _
thq T.". ME moved for copies of the instructions of
tqh;nrits of the Admiralty, dated the 14th day of Oc-
tash4, 1,851, to Commodore Bruce, .or the officer in corn-
Aftr Of her Majesty's ships of war on the west coast of
sp,'?,%. with copies or extracts of ell treaties and corre-
41:1;"enee, to show the nature of the alliance with the
t5,i,.._'6611 chief Akitoge; also copies or extracts of the
blerietioas to Ms. Consul Beecroft, by which he assetn-
lihi 500 natives under the chief Akitoge to join her
ItiellettY'llorces inahe war against Lagos; and copies of
dispatches as will show the causes of the war with
the chief, Of the proclamation of war against Kosoko,
he ?/f 'or king at Lagos; and an account of the num•
%e, 47 and men killed and wounded in the
t;:irabtione at or near that town in December, 1851.
la,-'6
-Proclamation or offer of reward for the capture
fre;°%nko. And copies Or extracts of the dispatches
Qoj,,-- the. Admiralty and Foreign-office in answer to
tI,W-att raodore Bruce's and Mr. Beecrott'a letters ; and
%t °t the orders for hoisting the British colours
gok
thibri;l26 CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
I:4oZl:vaa tioobjection whatever to granting the papers
for bir the lion. Gentleman.
kr SIR J. BROOKE.
%set re; aaLEME moved that an humble address be pre-
-110 7c to her Majesty for a copy of a letter from Mr.
Btirns to Lord Palmerston, dated Singapore,
°bp" 4,:1'851 with its enclosures, complaining of the
q
%talivaions and macouragements he had received to his
iestll6lroial affairs in Borneo at the hands of her Ma-
o Commissioner and Consul-General to the Sultan
itiwttl4aPendent chiefs of Borneo, while prosecuting his
'vtith"l",, nornmercial proceedings in that country, together
mar °o,,,py of any answers thereto.
CNRY DRUMMOND said, the Hon. Gentle-
tt nights ago had given notice of a motion
4)4317 to the present, but that motion contained a state-
..74lloa was not the fact. The name operation was
) •
xi;

... 169