The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-11 00:00:00

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-a4,g00. -the town of Liverpool, with a constituency of
e
the borough of Lambeth of 18,000. I further
find these three places supported the tollswing amount
sof Population, viz —in Westminster, 241,000; in Lam-
k7th, 251,000; in Liverpool, 376,000—each of these
Pees represented by two Membars. Tnero is, also,
msbary, with a constituency of 20,003—supported by
Population of 323,000; Marylebone, with a constiu-
eneY of ;19,700—supported by a population of 370,000;
1110 Tower Hamlets, with a constituency of 23,000
oaQ.PPorted by a population exceeding 500,000; Med-
escx, with a Constituency of 14,600; Manchester, with
em'
constituency of 13 900—supported by a population of
316,000; South Lancashire, with a constituency of
re°, with a population of between 500,000 and 600,000.
tWe mast also consider that where there is a coesetu-,
-11e,r, of occupying tenants—we will say of 50/.7 h.. 7
t 0 rank
the material of a constituency they may be said
with the 101. franchise of a borough. Taking,t
e
?11, into consideration what may be truly called
noth
rminent elements of national wealth, which mustherma.
a omitted iu our inquiries upon this subject,
Vitra Government have resolved to recommenders
to he
°llse to apportion the two other Membthe
southern division of the county of Lancaster.—(Hear,
bear.) Sir, I have been told that the votes that have
ueen lost have been lost to the towns, and that they
Ought to be given to the towns. Her Alsieev's Go-
eernment are fully aware that this is an objection' that is
easy to make, but most difficult to austain. Now no
one more admires the energy of the great towns than
myself.' I do not wish, however, to mix up either their
present proud position or their future forrnnes with the
degraded members of St. Albans or Sudbury.—(Hear,
bear.) Sir, cannot think that the Memb,rs taken from
those boroughs could either sustain their energies or
add to their value. Let the House recollect that, in re-
commending the apportionment of those four seats, we
are including in these two county constituencies scores
of towns four times larger than either Sudbary or St.
Albans.—(dear.) If you take the surplus population of
South Lancashire and the West Riding of Yorkshire,
you have upwards of 1,400,000 persons who are, directly
or indirectly represented now by only four Members.
We propose that they shall be in future represented by
eight" Members—that is our proposition.—(Cheers.)
And if you look at the population of any of our greatest
boroughs and constituencies brought under our coneide-
ratiou, you will not find one of tnem that equals the
surplus political population of the West Riding or South
Lancashire; and you will not find any two, or any three,
or anytfour of those great constituencies, equal to that
United population to which I have referred. We propose,
then, in regard to South Lancashire, for the same reasons,
la order that the minority, whether it be agricultural
or manufacturing, may be truly represented, that South
Lancashire shall be also divided —(Hear, hear.) South
Lancashire consists of two hundreds—the hundred of
Salford and the hundred of West Darley (as we under-
Stood). In the former we find the flourishing city of
Manchester. In the latter wo find the famous port of
Liverpool. Therefore, there is here a natural and
sWell-understood line of demarcation. The result will
be that in the constituency of Salford there are
12,000, *lnd in West Darley 9,500. There are some
details with respect to this divis on which I might men-
tion if the House would sanction them; but I think the
House will excuse them at present. I have 'thus endesa
'routed to place before the House the intentions of the
Government; and to show the various considerations
which have induced her Majesty's Ministers, with the
utmost impartiality, to recommend this plan to the House.
Every opinion founded upon popular support that has
been expressed upon this a abject lass received every re-
spect and attention from her Majesty's Government.
On the whole, then, desirous to do that which I think
will be most advantageous to the community, we have
thought proper, in reference to the pledge we gave, in
pursuance to the duty which we owe to that Sovereign
whosepower we acknowledge, to bring the proposition
before Parliament. Whatever may be the result of it,
we are confident that we have only done one duty as
Ministers of the Crown in submitting it to the conside-
ration of this House.—(Hear, hear.) It is obviously a
question of the greatest importance that *the Constitu-
tional number of the House of Commons should be com-
Pleted—(Qear, hear)—and that the continuous and sys-
tematic deficiency of our number, which is perilous to
the welfare of the country and to the honour of this
adopted,
should be removed. If these propositions are
'uaPted, we believe that public opinion will sanction
them,
and that they will contribute to the welfare of the
community, and tend to the increase of the strength as
well as the lustre of the House of Coineions.=(Cheers.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said that he did not feel disposed
to impute to her Majesty's Government any sinister ob-
ject in the introduction of this measure. Neither would
he charge the Right Hon. Gentleman with having taken
the Rouse by surprise, or with having tampered with an
honourable undertaking; because the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman
had, with perfect correctness, stated the terms of
the
announcement which he made upon a former occa-
sion. He had likewise done him (Mr. Gladstone) the
honour of referring to an objection which he had been
permitted to make at the first moment of the announce-
tens 0 f the present proposition. He did not suggest to
_the House that it was wrong on the part of the Govern-
ment to introduce a measure of this nature because they
soire suspected of an intention to procrastinate the dis-
kitlitim What he had stated was this—that it was the
Y of the House to obtain a pledge from the Govern-
-meet thatintooth no measure but one of urgency should be
of lyed by the Government in the present session
parliament, and that the measure of the apportion-
ment of the four vacant seats, by any latitude of con-
struction, could riot be brought fairly within this de-
scription. He would not join issue with the Right Hon.
Gentleman in respect to the merits of the proposition
he had just made,. but he would strictly caufiae himself
to the question whether the subject opened by the Right
Hon. Gentleman to the House was one which the
House should consent to enter upon. Instead of meet-
ing the motion with a mere negative, he would suggest
that the House should pass, in the usual phrase, to the
order of the day. It' the Right Hon. Gentleman had
succeeded in showing that this was a question of consti-
tutional urgency, then the House should give him leave
to introduce his measure, but if he had failed in proving
this fact, then he (Mr. Gladstone) thought that the
House should refuse him the permission he asked. It
was propoied at that moment, and in what has been em-
phatically called a moribund Parliament, and by an Ad-
ministration which did not plead the title of pre-
sent, confidence, and who was abOut to ask for
that confidence by an appeal to the people,
to introduce a measure which he (Mr. Gladstone)
contended had no plea of urgency to recommend
it. The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted that there was
no magical. or cabalistic virtue in the number 658. He
fMr. Gladstone) would go further, and say there was no
aw or principle of the eonstitation—no solemn decision
of Parliament, nor anything beyond accident and the
duration of about forty years,' which the Right Hon.
Gentleman called prescription—to recommend this num-
ber to their especial notice. There was a popular error
upon this subject, when it was supposed that 658 re-
presented a great balance of interests, and that it was
the duty of Parliament at once to complete that num-
ber. What they found by referring to the Acts of Par-
liament was this. By the Act of Union with Scotland
the stipulation entered into by this country was that
Scotland ahouldhave forty-five members, and by the ACt
of Union with Ireland the latter country was to have 100
members. But these Acts set no limits to the total num-
ber of the members of the House of Commons. The Right
Hon. Gentleman referred to what he called the danger of
remainingint
bhisecontinuous and systematic deficiency.
If, then, there
a systematiC and continuous de-
ficiency, where, he would eel, was the alleged prescrip-
tion? Sudbury had riot been disfranchised very recently.
It had been disfranchised since the year 1844, Since
f that time eight years bad elapsed. They had had three
Ministries—all parties in the state had successively been
ineepposition, Biel not a single. member of -
any of these
parties in opposition, including that which now sat op-
" bad called• postte, upon the Rouse to vindicate this sa-
cred
prescription, ornaa appealed to this constitutional
numbee—(Hear, hear)-or had said one single word
• upon the necessity
ofd
h raising
this number to the standard,
and that although they a passed throughinle.hrieeoarrd,ehaelar
of
• a general election in the intervening t
• They had had 656 instead of 658 Members returned to
Parliament. The Right
.Hon._ Gentleman towards the
• close of his speech had said a condition of things like
that was. dangerous to the country, and menaced
the
honour of the House. That was the
ithe first time he had
heard snail a view, and he had heard with regret. ex-
pressed of a reduction of their numbers, which was
• likewise consequent upon accident, as the originally
fixed number was likewise consequent' upon accident.—
(Hear.) It was purely
question.,ut oafetctoinngvenaiseindcee
anyand
policy, and nothing else -16
mere opinion on that—whetherentienie
i,
theler
their opinion private opt-
Ili" a G
Right Honourable •
as Ministers of the Crown—the point he put to them
Was this; that the Right lion. Gentleman was bound, in
order to. make good his case, to show that there was
aurae constitutional sacredness or prescriptionehantwtenc,hce,nd
' to that number. On the contrary, he had
Right lion. Gen-
manreferencc. to the great Legislative instruments, that that
Aim
111114 bet did not exist in them; and the
p.
t.
number, to the Eloiws
0 --ers and he could not make any claim
had failed to show that it was the. constitutional
stitution e hoped that
°llsequent upon his having proved its being the con-
the Hon, Gentleman
On the other hand, h
that
which he _entlemt.in who took the same
ing to reco(Mr.mmend, would remember that they
.were not
now to
'ding humblyvieewndeeasvotir-
plinetino. g upon any ground of mere etiquette or
Fie agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman
it would have been unconstitutional if the Government
lneenlin2:
into office had pledged itself absolutely to the
ou of introduotiany given number of measures, and
then to
dissolve Parliament. But what was right and
:constitutional to expect from them, and what they had
eßckven as a pledge, was, not the fixing a certain number
IneaSaces—three, four, or any other number—the lay-
. 'lag down of a prieciple, the entering into an engage-
Thent which was definite, and strictly understood. He
might contest the Right Honourable Gentleman's
its
eoa construction of that engagement and the latitude el
as understood by the Right Honourable Gentles
initnt Ile at once conceded to the Right Hon. Gentleman
that there was not the slightest intention to escape from
it- But the principle of the understanding was, that no
I'leaeures, except those of immediate urgency, should be
• submitted to the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.)
That was variously stated on various occasions. At the
enure time it was said that none but necessary measures
were to be submitted to the judgment of the House of
Commons. On one occasion the Right Hon. Gentleman
carried his language so high as to say that the Govern-
' Went would not introduce any measures except those of
2 absolute and indispensable necessity. He did not wish
to Stand by any one particular expression or another,
fort he fel t that the substance of the understanding was
clear in the mind of every Hon. Gentleman who heard
, him, and that he was not stating it too strongly when
• .he said, that the understanding asked and obtained was
that no. measures but those of immediate urgency should
be sat twitted to 'Parliament. Neither did that under-

rrn:m

---
standing rest upon a narrow ground. On the contrary,
it was stated and obtained in vindication of a principle
of the highest importance and a practical object of the
highest moment. It wile in vinilicettoe of the constitu-
tional principle that a Government at issue with the ex-
isting Parliament upon a cardinal point of its policy was
bound to take one of two alternatives—either to resign
office (a course which no one recommended uuder the cir-
cumstances), or else to appeal to the people. Dui, there
was another 'object which Parliament had in view, and
that was to discharge its solemn duty to that greet prin-
ciple or commercial policy which they were hound to
see well brought home to haven, and at the earliest
moment.—(Hear.) It was a fallacy against which every
man ought to guard, that because with the present Go-
vernment in power, the principles of the commercial po-
licy of the country had not been altered by any positive
measure, they were to rest satisfied. It would be no
tented that tbhtrhei mgo
taitithet r
amisaahstottuehri
adttosi
ato
wr
speedyae
fulfilment, but an abandonment, of their duty to be con-
e
sm aa isno.
al solemn nt
fi
dutyi:lh
aa d
ul
sb
te
uoe
enn.
at
them t tael toon
That could only be done by an appeal to the people by
dissotution ; and, therefore, in asking a dissolution it was
not for any party
object, but it was because, if there
was one duty more iccumbsut than another at the pre-
s_eut time upon that large majority of the House of
Cemmons who had on repeated occasions testified their
opiciocs in favour -of, and given their cordial adhesion
to the principles of free trade—it was that they should
not be contented, whatever might be said of the ex-
istence of the Ministry, to leave those principles to
exist upon sufferance—to the chapter of accidents, that
they should leave • them as matters now stood, in the
guerdieliship of gentlemen whose own inclinations, with-
out doubt or disguise, were opposed to theta—(Hear,
hear)—bat that they should expedite the process which
the Prime 'Minister had justly and fairly proposed;
namely, the process of obtaining the deliberate judgment
of the constituencies with regard to the principles of
their commercial legislation; and having so obtained it,
that they should then find them in a condition tto o lay
down a course of policy by which they meant
guided, and that if they found the public averse to the
policy which they had hitherto pursued, then that they
should frankly and finally own that state of facts, so that
at length this great controversy might be at length defi-
nitively ended, and the machinery of the constitution
might fall into its usual course and order. This was
a question which was not applicable to the merits of
the Right Honourable Gentleman as to other pro-
posals, and not involving any animadversions of an
acrimonious character on his conduct. It • was a
question strictly relating to the introduction of a
Bill and to the inquiry as to whether that Bill
ought to be entertained at all. Inasmuch; then, as he
had clearly shown there was no constitutional ground or
claim for the introduction of the question at the present
moment, he thought it right also to point out the great
inconvenience attending its introduction. It was a
sound noon of Parliamentary practice, that, except
under immediate urgency, the eve cf a dissolution of
Parliament was the worst moment for the introduction
of measures like this affecting the constituencies, for it
was a moment at which local partialities and personal
interests were most alive, and at which it was most diffi-
cult for Members of the House of Commons to give a
delnierate and dispassionate judgment. But, beyond
that, this was a question with regard to which two
essential conditions for its c nsideration entirely failed
them. The first was, although the scale of the subject
was a small one• L-although it might appear not a serious
matter whet should be done with so insignificant a
fraction of their representation as that of four
seats out of 658, yet it was plain it was a
question of the highest importance, and de-
serving the most serious consideration ; and,
above all others, it ought to be approached once for all,
and then should be finally settled. Those seats ought
net to be held up to the people as a prize for every man
to snatch at. The matter ought to be decided, not in
a provisional and unsettled state of things like the pre-
sent, out when they had got an Administration in full
possession of political power. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man, had himself already seen and mentioned some in-
dimitions and dispositions of all parties unrepresented, or
not sufficiently represented, to catch at the possession of
those Vacant seats. These were claims which ought not to
be decided haphazard, nor by accidental divisions, in
consequence of parties being nearly balanced, nor in a
disorganized state of the House. of Commons. But the
proposal ought to be made with the authority of a
strong Executive; and, once seriously entered upon,
it ought not to leave the table of the House until a
definitive conclusion had been arrived at. There were,
moreover, great difficulties in the case which the Right
Hon. Gentleman' had hardly adverted to, which per-
haps be had•found it necessary to pays.by. When they
saw the multitude of parties who could Make a plau-
sible claim to those seats, they were bound to consider
what. was due to them and to the feelings which they en-
tertained. He did not say they could please them all,
but they were bound to satisfy them all that they had
had a fair hearing of their case; and he put it to the
Right Hon. Gentleman whether this moribund Parlia-
ment was in a position to give a fair hearing to all their
different claims. The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded
to some of them—tO the universities—and he stated the
case of the universities of Scotland as entitled to respect
and approbation; but the upshot of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman's speech was, that for want of machinery,
for want of degtees, he had foregone the idea of enter-
taining the claims of that university. But the members
of that university could say that the degrees were but
the certificates of attendance, and that these could he ob-
tained by some other means; and that if the conditions
for conferring the representation on the universities of
Scotland were fixed, these conditions could be readily
satisfied. He slid not prejudge; but if all the parties
were to he fairly heard, they could hardly sa-
tisfy the universities of Scotland that they should
be passed by because there was no registration
of degrees in existence amongst them. He said
the same with respect to the inns of court; and
also with respect to another class of claimants—the un-
enfranehised towns.—(Hear, hear.) He did not enter
into' the-question whether the university and the inns of
court, as representing the education and intelligence of
the country, or the unenfranchised towns, or the old
constituencies should receive those seats. But this he
did say, it was their duty caretully to examine and in-
vestigate the question—to enter upon it when they had
a free choice—not to precipitate the determination of
it. The late Government had proposed to bestow them
upon Burnley and 'Birkenhead. He had never examined
these particular eleims; he said nothing about them;
but it would be rather hard, if they passed them by,
and if' they legislated at a period when they ' could not
possibly have tune to entertain them. Nor could they
expect that the peOple of Burnley or Birkenhead would
be satisfied with the verdict of the House of Commons
if they were determined, without any consideration of
their claims, to go to an issue upon the question at a
time when it was impossible they could entertain
those claims. There seemed to be in the Right Hon.
Gentleman's mind something which ho had not stated--
some secret about the constitutional number of the Mem-
bers of that House which he had not been able to fathom.
All he could say, then, was, that, having consulted their
history and the laws on the statute-book, it appeared to
him upon the clearest evidence that there was not any
constitutional virtue attaching to the number 658. Any
opinion that there was such was the purest fiction that
ever entered the mind of man. It was a matter of no-
toriety that during the last eight years—during three
Administrations, with a general election intervening—
they had fallen short of that supposed constitutional
number; and such being the case, he put it to the House
was it necessarily a matter of constitutional importance
to proceed with this measure—while, on the other hand,
he had shown it was not a constitutional practice on the
eve of a dissolution to proceed with measures which were
not of immediate urgency. So far, then, from the pre-
sent time being advisable, it was the worst and most in-
convenient that could be selected for the decision of the
qutetion, while he had proved that their decision could
not give satisfaction to many claimants upon the fran-
chise whom they were bound to hear, or to the public at
large, who view with much interest the disposal of a
question pertaining to the representative system of this
country. He moved that the House do pass to the
orders of the day.—(Cheers.)
After a short pause, during which no Member rose,
the House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
• For the amendment
Majority
o The proposition of the Government was accordingly

LONDON,