The Sun.
London, England, 1864-03-04 00:00:00

CHIEF RENTS (IRELAND) BILL.
_ _

. -
Lo-rd DONOUGHMORE moved the second reading' of
this bill.

After a few words from Lord MONTEAGLR, the motion
;was agreed to.

Their lordships then, adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening,
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
IN DIA.
Colonel SYKES asked the Secretary of State for India
whether, considering the rapidly increasing difficulties of
adjusting the large annual balance of trade in favour of
India by means of silver, it was his intention to facilitate
commercial operations by the introduction into India of
pure alloyed gold tokens of the value of five or ten rupees ?
Mr, VANSITTART asked the Secretary of State for
la dia whether, in lieu of the gold tokens of the value of five
or ten rupees, as suggested by the member for Aberdeen, it
'would not be desirable to re-introduce that portable and
popular gold piece among the natives known as the gold
toohur, which is worth 325., and which resembles the Prue-
Sian double fredricksdor ?

Sir C. WOOD said he was not prepared to introduce such
coins, which would be an impediment to the introduction of
the sovereign, which he should like to see.
Col. SYKES said he should call attention to the subject
after Easter, and would move a resolution.

THE SAXON.
Lord R. MONTAGU asked the Attorney-General,
whether it be true that the Saxon was captured on the
ground that her cargo was supposed to be the property of
the Confederate States, and whether it be according to the
law of nations to take possession of enemies' goods under a
neutral flag, or to make prize of the neutral vessel contain-
ing these goods; or whether, on the other hand, the Saxon
was captured on the ground that her cargo was Federal
property, which had been seized by a Confederate man-of-
war, and had been transhipped on board the neutral vessel ;
and, if so, whether such an act be in accordance with any
principle of international law.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said representations had
been made to the Tjnited States, and no answer had been
received. It was undesirable, therefore, to have a hypothe-
tical discussion on the subject.

COLONEL CRAWLEY.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE asked the Under Secretary of State
for War when the proceedings of the court-martial on Col.
Crawley would be laid upon the table of the house ?
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said the papers would
be laid on the table to-night, and the distribution would
take place on Saturday morning.
LETTERS ON SUNDAYS.
Mr. HOPWOOD asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department if there would be any objection to allow
letters posted at the General Post Office on Sunday to be
despatched on that day, on account of the great privilege it
would afford to the public and the small amount of labour
it would entail ?
Mr. PEEL said that a great objection existed as to the
course which the hrn. gentleman recommended. There
was, in all probability, 20,000 letters delivered at the
General Post-office on a Sunday, and to effect a despatch of
that large amount would necessitate the appointment of a
great number of men.

SHEATH OR DAGGER KNIVES.
Mr. HORSFALL asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, whether her Majesty's Government
were prepared to take any steps to prevent the wearing of
sheath or dagger-knives, from the use of which so many
murders have been committed ?
Sir G. GREY said that he had received communications
from magistrates at Liverpool, from which it appeared that
sailors, particularly foreign sailors, were in the habit of
wearing knives and daggers of a dangerous nature, and he
would be quite ready co adopt any practical means to put
down this practice.

IRON PLATED GUNBOATS.
Mr. PERRAND asked the Secretary of the Admiralty
if contracts, Without competition, for two iron-plated gun-
boats had been given, or were intended to be given, to two
shipbuilding firms.
Lord C. PAGET said that the Government were pre-
pared to receive contracts for the construction of those boats
from two eminent firms if they found the tenders were rea-
sonable.

NEW ZEALAN.
Mr. A. MILLS asked the Under Secretery of State for
the Colonies, when the New Zealandcorrespondence
moved for last session would be laid upon the table ;
and,
whether any intelligence had recently been received as to
the proposed transfer of the seat of Government from
Auckland to some other locality in New Zealand ?
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said that the papers alluded to
would be laid on the table to-morrow, and, in reference to
other papers which had been asked for, they would be laid
on th) table shortly.
PROPOSED REDUCTION IN THE ARMY.
On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Lord PALMERSTON appealed strongly to the hon.
gentleman opposite (Mr. Bernie) to postpone his motion on
the reduction of the army until after the right hon. gentle..
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer had obtained his
first resolution for the necessary complement of men for
the army. The discussion oit this subject might then take
place with greater advantage, and the hon. member would
have ample opportunity of using such arguments as he
might consider suitaUo to influence the house.
Mr. BAILLIE said he could not comply with the wishes
of the noble hr.d, and felt justified in bringing the subject
before the house on the present occasion. (Hear,
hear, frr.itn the Opposition benches.) He objected
to the proposed reduction in the army on different
grounds. In the first place, he contended that the efficiency
of the army was not such as to warrant its reduction,
and the relations of the country to foreign nations was
not such as to render any such reduction desirable. It
was also, in his opinion, most cruel to our soldiers to compel
them to spend the greater portion of their lives in tropical
climates, to the detriment of their health, and merely for
the purpose of reducing the national expenditure. As the
greater portion of the army were stationed in such climates,
and instead of having their service abroad diminished,
it would be increased if ttio proposed reduction were
effected. The hon. member having described the effects
produced on soldiers by a residence in certain latitudes,
denied that the House of Commons generally were in
favour of a reduction in the army, and he designated the
same as an attempt to acquire popularity at the
expense of the brave defenders of the country. He con-
cluded by urging on the house to reject any attempt to
decrease the army at the present time and under existing
circumstances,

YEOMANRY CAVALRY.
Col. EDWARDS moved that the discontinuance in the
present year of the assembling of the Yeomanry Cavalry for
the accustomed period of six days' training on permanent
duty, would be detrimental to the efficiency of the force, and
contrary to the recommendation of the committee appointee
by Lord Herbert in the year 1561, and is inexpedient.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY seeonded the motion,
The Marquis of HARTINGTON expressed a regret
that the appeal of the noble lord (Palmerston) had not been
acceded to, and he could not but regret that the die-
cassion had not been postponed until the house had
gone late committee on the army estimates. Re contended
that exceptional circumstances had rendered an increase in
the army _
eceBftary, but under the present state of things a
reduction was not °sly
practicable but inevitable, without in
the
the ssalighteat degree impairing its efficiency or endangering
fety and interests of
the- country. He denied that
in proposing a reduction '
the milttaryforceGnoamveirsnsimonent
was acting against tke re:
of
inspection. TAG paid
atahraiendstions of the co
yeomanry and volunteer
corps, tributehe reductionbute of
opraise to the
f the votes
in regard to the former was .iof
d ,a proper sense
economy.
General PEEL deprecated the policy of. the Government
yeo b
rypenny
as eing wise and pound
man merely to save £l6 foo
,000 a-year is disbanding the
Lord PALMERSTON defended thepol- of the Go-
vernment, and said that it would not entail ale:- inefficiency
in the military service of the countr in regayrdtthe re-
duction for the present year of theyvote for training the
yeomanry. (Hear, hear, and derisive cheers.)
Sir W. MILES censured the policy of the Government.
(Cries of "Divide.")
"The house then divided—
For going into committee of supply 158
Against it 157
Majority -1
The announcement was received with loud cheers.
POLICE SPIES.

requesting that the practice should be immediately discon-
tinued, and this they had promised should be done.
gz THE DEVONPORT ELECTION.
Mr. FERRAND once more called attention to the inter-
ference by Sir Baldwin Walker, whilst Coradtroller of the
Navy, and Admiral Robinson, when commander of the
Devonport steam reserve, in the election for the borough in
the year 1859. The hon. gentleman declared that being a
candidate for the representation of Devonport at that time,
he had been defeated solely through the scandalous and dis-
graceful conduct of Sir Baldwin Walker, who had issued a
placard against him,
and had used all his influence in the
dockyard to prevent his return. He also complained that
Admiral Robinson had appeared in the uniform of his rank
at the Ton Hall on the occasion, and taken an active part
in support of Sir A. Buller, the Whig candidate, by waving
his handkerchief and leading off the cheers. The hen.
member further commented in severe terms upon the treat-
ment which had been experienced by the late Mr. Augustus
Stafford, when Secretary to the Admiralty under Lord
Derby's first Administration, and charged the Duke of
Somerset and Sir Baldwin Walker with having done that
which Mr. Stafford had been censured for doing. In the
one case, however, Sir Benjamin Hall, who had brought
the charges against that gentleman, had gone up to the
House of Lords, Sir Baldwin Walker had received a dis-
tinguished command on a foreign station, whilst poor
Augustus Stafford had gone down to the grave a broken-
heal ted man.

Sir J. D. HAY said he had received the personal assur'
ance of Admiral Robinson, both orally and in writing, that
there was not one word of truth in the statement that he
was present in full uniform at the election or had taken a
leading part in the proceedings. With regard to the Duke
of Somerset, whatever might have been his conduct at Tot-
nes and elsewhere, he believed that the noble duke had, at
all events, not been actuated by political motives in his
administration of the navy.

Lord C. PAGET defended the character of Sir Baldwin
Walker from the imputations cast upon it by Mr. Ferrand,
and stated, as the best proof that the gallant admiral was
not influenced by political motives, that under his comp-
trollership dockyard promotions went on in the usual way,
regardless of the manner in which the workmen who were
electors had given their votes. In loud and indignant tones
the noble lord then denounced Mr. Ferrand's unfounded
and slanderous attacks attacks upon Sir Baldwin Walker,
whose word, he exclaimed, ho would rather take than the
oath of the hon. member.
Loud cries of " Take down the words," here assailed the
noble lord, and a scene of great agitation ensued, in the
midst of which
Mr. FERRAND moved that the words be taken down.

Lord C. PAGET apologetically observed, that if he had
uttered anything that was unparliamentary, it was only in
defence of one of the most gallant officers in the public
service.

Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped the noble lord would retract
the expression he had used.
Lord C. PAGET was quite ready to do so ; but he would
adopt the strongest language that the usuago of the house
allowed, in order to express his abhorrence of such a gra-
tuitous attack upon an honourable and a gallant man when
absent on a distant service. With regard to Admiral Ro-
binson, it appeared that he had attended the election at
Devonport merely as a spectator, and the whole statement
of the hon. member was incorrect.

Sir J. PAK INGTON observed that it was only due to
Sir B. Walker to say that over and over again he had
given him the most distinct assurances, as a gentleman and
a man of honour, that he was in no way influenced by poli-
tical motives in anything he had done as Comptroller of the
Navy. As to Admiral Robinson, the question was if he had
appeared on the scene of a contested election at Devonport
in his uniform as captain of the steam reserv3 at that port ;
and the noble lord said that he w„rit there as a spectator
only. He knew the high character of Admiral Robinson,
and was ready to do full justice to it; but he must say he
thought the gallant officer would have acted with sounder
discretion had he abstained from presenting himself in
public on such an occasion.
The discussion was continued by S:r A, Buller and Lord
J. Manners, and brought to a close by Mr. Bernal Osborne
in a display of "fireworks," which excited roars of laughter.

The motion of Mr. FERRAND was then withdrawn.

Sir H. VERY E Y urged the expediency of carrying into
effect the recommendations contained in the report of the
committee on the proper means for the instruction and em-
ployment of soldiers and their children in trades, and of the
Under Secretary of State in a letter to the quartermaster-
general of May, 1862, relating to the same subject.
The house having gone into committee of supply,
THE ARMY ESTIMATES,

The Marquis of HARTINGTON, in introducing the
army estimates, said that in a few days he should have to
lay on the table a supplemental army estimate for the
year 1863.4, The amount of this would he about
£400,000. But £198,000 of that sum was not an addi-
tional charge—merely a matter of account with the
Indian Government. The re,alainder of the supplemental
vote was due almost entirely to the war in New Zea-
land. The estimates which he was now introducing to the
committee amounted to £14,814,888, against an estimate
for 1863.4 of £15,060,237; or a reduction of £215,349.
Compared with the estimate for t8'62.3, which
amounted to £15,672,730, there was e decrease of £827,849.
In 1861-2 the war ,expenditure reached its highest leeel,
being £15,883,160. Since then there had been a reduction
of £1,038,112 on the nominal expenditure, The comparison
was still more favourable if they deducted, as they ought to
do, the stuns which had to he repaid into the exchequer,
and which now appeared in the army accounts, although
they did not in 1861-2. Allowing for these sums, the net
estimated expenditure for the present year was only
£13,520,000, showing a reduction of £2,362,714 as compared
with 1861-2. From some obs-rvations made by the hon.
member for Inverness (Mr, Baillie) in the early part of the
debate, it seemed that the Government might this year be
thought to have gone too far in the way of reduction of ex-
penditure, The estimates were, however, based on the ex-
pectation that the country would remain at peace. If hon.
gentlemen opposite entertained a contrary expectation, they
should say so at once, and condemn the policy of the Go-
vernment, which was a peace policy, and not the estimates,
which were based on that policy. Although the estimates
had been materially reduced of late years, the present ex-
penses of the army were still much greater than they were
before the Crimean war. In fact, the increase was some-
thing like 41 millions. The additional expense had no doubt
been caused by the improvements which had been intro-
duced into our military organisation. He did not believe
that the country had grudged the cost; but, on the other
hand, he did not think that it was expected that our mili-
tary expenditure should range permanently at the high
amount which it had reached during the last few years. It
was time now that the country should reap some benefit for
the large expenditure which it had been incurring for so
years; therefore, he thought he might claim the support of
the committee for the reductions ht 3 how proposed. Although
the comparison had been made in several shapes, it might
be not uninteresting to the committee to hear in what man-
ner the excess of this year's estimates over those of 1853-4
had been expended. The sum to be accounted for
was 44,784,000. The sum first to be deducted from that
was repayment to the Indian Government, £970,000, which
made no difference on either side of the account. That re-
duced the sum to £ 3,914,000. In comparison with 1853-4
we had nearly doubled our expenditure upon the militia
force, while our expenditure upon the volunteer force was
entirely new. These sums together amounted to £650,000.
That reduced the sum he had to account for to £3,164,000.
In accounting for that sum he first took £1,000,000 as in-
creased expenditure over 1853 in the article of warlike stores.
A ceinparison of the estimates would show that that was as
nearly as possible the state of the case, The expenditure
was in consequence of the improved arms which had been
introduced in every branch of the service, Since that time
the Enfield rifle had been placed in the hands of the whole
army, and the expense of keeping the army supplied with
that arm was much higher than it had been with the old
musket, The introduction of arms of precision had also led
to an immensely increased expenditure of ammunition for
practice by regulars, militia, and volunteers, amounting in
all to 400,000 men. Since that time also the artillery had
been armed with the Armstrong gun. That also involved
an immensely increased expenditure of practice ammunition
of a much more expensive kind. Added to that was the fact
that the numerical strength of the army had been largely
increased, so that the expense for the increase in warlike
stores was not to be wondered at. The next item which he
had to deduct was one peculiar to this year, namely, the
sum of £500,000 which New Zealand had cost more than in
1853-4. That left the sum he had toaccoant for at£1,554,000.
The remainder was to be accounted for partly by the addi-
tion already mentioned to the numerical strength of the
army of 25,000 to 30,000 men. Exclusive of Indian depots,
17,000 men and 4,000 more horses were borne on the estab-
lishment of the army than in 1853-4. The pay of those men
and the forage for the horses would amount to £600,000,
leaving a sum t iaou e
xcwesesatrhyiisnygeathr oefe.£o9m6m4,oitreeaswciotmhptaoroedmwainthy
1853-4. V
ho might mention the items on which that sum had
to be expended, sum
details,
First, there were improved rates of good
conduct eay and badges
; next a charge for the employment
of native troops in China, the expenses of depot battalions,
£15,000 experimental services, £76000 ; additional quality
and number of articles of clothing supplied. £124,000 ;
commissariae £124,000 more. Perhaps he might here men-
tion that the expenditure represented a real and very sub-
stantial benefit to the soldiers, because in 1853-4 the cost of
his rations was defrayed by a stoppage from his pay made
to cover the coat of the rations. Now the stoppage was uni-
form all over the world, and fixed at 41d. They had also
established a commissariat corps, which performed the
duties heretofore left to contractors, by which meat of im
proved quality was
"replied to the troop at a cheaper rate.
'There was also an item of £150,000 increase in rations, fuel
and light. There was an increase for the lodgings of offi-
cers, and allowances to married soldiers, of £70,000. The
next item of increase was in the medical department of the
army, £150,000, and an increase in the educational and re-
ligious vote of £125,000. He was sorry to say also that in
the military prison discipline vote of £25,000. There was
also an increase in the new item for schools of gunnery
musketry instruction amounting to £70,000. These items
together accounted for the increase in this year's estimates
over those of 1853-4, Hon. members would see that every
item bad gone in the direction et improved efficiency of the
troops by better armaments, instruction, and drill, or in

Mr. ROEBUCK, in drawing attention to the report of
the inspectors of constabulary, animadverted in justly in-
dignant terms upon the establishment in London of societies
—in other words, " private inquiry offices"—.which were
extensively in communication with the police throughout
the country; with the object of supplying inquisitive per-
sons with information, and under the pretence of defending
credit and preventing crime, were engaged in dogging
People's steps from day to night and night to day ; in short,
Carrying,_ out a widely-ralLified spy system. He wished to
Know whether the Home Se 2retary had taken any resolu-
tionupou the subject.
SirG. GREY had no hesitation in emphatically declar-
ing that the practice referred to was most objectionable, and
utterly foreign to the purpose for which the police force was
established. Upon receiving the report of Lieutenant-
General Cartwright, the inspector of the eastern district, he
at once communicated with the chairmen of quarter sessions,
magistrates, watch committees and various municipal
authorities, enclosing them an extract from the report, and

improvement in the condition of the soldier. It was abso-
lutely
nsheroeuelsdinbgeimprove-
ment offered t t
th
es o
nd
iethr the
necessaryon
condition
t account
of the
fh m t
tiehn
rapidlyldeaubceeur
eerntt
throughout the coun-
try. Increased allowance of clothing and improved rations
were of course exactly in the nature of increased pay.
The comments of the hon. member for Inverness did not
require any very long answer from him. The first objec-
tion of the hon. gentleman to reduction was on 'the ground
of the insufficiency of oar establishment of troops at home
to meet the requirements of the service for India and the
colonies. If hon. gentlemen had looked at the estimates of
this and the preceding year, and had read the explanations
accompanying them, they would see that the infantry had
not been reduced at all. On the contrary, they had been
increased by 1,000 men. The hon, gentleman said that the
proportion which it was desirable to keep at home was one-
, third of the whole force, so that a regiment might enjoy five
years at home after ten years of foreign service. Now the
number cf battalions which we have at home this year le
41, in India 55, and in the colonies 45. That is ne say we
have 34 actually f t home at this moment, but we have four
coming betne from the lonian Islands and three battalions
coming home from India, making seven, which will make up
the number to 41; so that there would be 41 battalions at
home and 103 in the colonies. It was true that there would
not be 60 battalions at home, but the committee must recol-
lect that four battalions were exceptionally employed in New
Zealand, and that the force at present in Canada was much
greater than was usually maintained there. The argument
of the hon. member had gone to prove that the force of in-
fantry ought very considerably to be augmented. Though
the committee might be inclined to agree to a large increase,
her Majesty's Government did not think it would be justi-
fiable to propose any such increase, The principle en
which they had prepared the diminution of the army was
not by diminishing the number of the battalions as units,
but by diminishing the strength of each unit, in imitation
of foreign powers, who, having the power of conscription,
maintained the cadres of their regiments while reducing
their strength. That was thought desirable to imitate, be-
cause, though we could not compel men to enter the service,
it had always been found in time of war that by increasing
the bounty any number of men could be obtained. In this
way the strength of service battalions, with the exception
of those serving in China and New Zealand, had been re-
duced to the lowest point at which the efficiency of the bat-
talion could be maintained. They had now only 680 men
in the service companies of a battalion, so that no further
reduction could be made in the numbers of infantry ; but
when they came to look at the numbers of the other branches
of the service, they found the garrison artillery had in-
creased from 4,885 in 1843 and 9,307 in 1853, to 17,629 last
year. By the reductions which it was now proposed to
make that number would be reduced to 14,606 for the pre-
sent year, There seemed to he no sound reason why the
garrison artillery should be kept up to so large an extent.
Unlike the field batteries, they had always been composed of
the same number of men in time of peace as in time of war,
and even now it was only proposed to reduce each batter 3
by 15 men, so that they would be left at a much higher pro-
portion in time of peace to their strength in time of war than
the field batteries were. 'With regard to our cavalry, the
increase of late years had not been less rapid than that of
the garrison artillery. In 1843 our force at home was 7,949;
in 1853, 8,690 ; and in 1863, 12,143. This year, however, it
was proposed to reduce the number to 11,331. The increase
in the number of cavalry had been caused by the raising of
two additional regiments, and the addition of a squadron to
the establishment of each regiment. The addition of a
squadron was called, for on account of its having been
found, during the Crimean war, that the field squadron
organisation was not adapted to the exigencies of war. The
efficiency of the cavalry would not be at all impaired by
the reduction which it was now proposed to make, The
hon, member for Inverness had stated that the influence
of England had decreased of late years ; bat if such were
the case, it certainly was not owing to any decrease in
the available force at our disposal, for it had, in faot, been
increased by nearly 12,000 men. 'We also had the militia
and the volunteer force, which M ould set free a large
number of the regular troops, in the event of their being
required for service on the Continent. It should be borne
in mind that the proposed reduction would take place in the
course of a few months by the mere cessation of recruiting,
and it would not be necessary to disband a single man.
With regard to the manner in which the resolution was
presented to the beim, he might state that when an altera-
tion wed being made in the shape of the estimates, Sir G
Lewis, the late Secretary for War, came to the conclu-
sion that it would be better to ask the house for a sum of
money, instead of voting a certain number of men. If,
however, bon, members desired vote No, 1 to be framed for
the future in the old way, there would be no objection to
comply with their wishes. As to the native troops in
China, he wished to mention that the reason why they were
not included In the resolution of last year was that they
were not placed under the provisions of the English Mutiny
Act, whereas all troops voted by the house necessarily came
within the scops of that Act. The cause of the increase in
the number of infantry was the New Zealand war. Having
now explained the total sum of the estimates, he would
make a few remarks upon some particular votes. In the
first place, the war in New Zealand had caused an increase
in the price of provisions and stores, and it hal also been
necessary to hire a large number of transports for the
troops. The vote for clothing had been slightly decreased,
and the vote for barrack establishments likewise showed
a diminution, which was due to a more economical
administration of the barrack stores. As to vote No. 4, he
might state that new experiments which he hoped would
produce good results, were about to he made in the matter
of canteens, which it was proposed to place under the
control of the committee of officers, and the points, after de-
fraying the expenses of the building, would be devoted to
the purchase of books, periodicals, &c. The new arrange-
ment would, in the first instance, be tried at some only of
the stations in the United Kingdom, but if it succeeded
it would of course be gradually extended to them all.
A. small vote would be taken for a gymnasium, which
it was anticipated would tend to improve the health
of the troops and augment their power of enduring fatigue.
Improvements, too, had been introduced in the cooking de-
partment, and one of the results had been a large saving. in
the item of fuel. The consequence of the improvements of
the last few years in the medical administration of the army
had been that the health of the troops at home was annually
improving. The improvements which had taken place in
barracks and hospitals had reduced the mortality from 171
per 1,000 to 8 per 1,000; and although this had caused an
increased expenditure, still it was money well laid out. He
would now turn to the votes relating to the manufacturing
department and stores, and would take both together. The
Government had been able to make a considerable reduc-
tion upon these two votes. In the vote for the manufac-
turing department there was an increase of £16,666, but on
the vote for stores there was a decrease of £265,850, conse-
quent upon the large supply of small arms in reserve. The
exertions which had been made for some years to have a
sufficient. quantity of small arms in reserve resulted in there
being £400,000 Enfield rifles in store. The increased vote
for the manufacturing department would have been consi-
derably greater, but that a sum of £30,000 had been trans•
ferred from the department to the experimental vote. He
had to state that the warlike stores, irrespective of the small
arms, was everything that could be desired. He now came
to the article of artillery guns, and he feared he could not
give the committee the same consolatory assurance he had
given with respect to the small arms, The committee had
already been informed by the select committee upon ord-
nance how the question stood at that time ; and they had
now got the report of the result of the experiments upon the
Armstrong guns. As to the lighter guns, he was happy to
say that they were universally approved of by the troops
in New Zealand. There were some symptoms of failure in
1862, but in no instance had it involved any loss of life.
Further experience had shown that it was an arm which
could be trusted in actual service, and that those guns
possessed great accuracy and power. Besides the guns for
field batteries, there was a considerable number in the depot
at Woolwich, which could be supplied at any moment they
might be required ; and there was also a large number in
the possession of the navy. There was also a large number
of 20 and 40 pounders in the possession of the navy. It was
I impossible to speak too highly of these guns. The 20-
pounders were much superior to the old 32-pounders, and
well adapted for field-works and fortifications, such as those
at Portsmouth, and they were an excellent gun for an army
in the field. It was quite true that the 110-pounders were
not so much approved of as the guns to which he had re-
ferred. It had been thought that above all things this
country should have a powerful !ilia gun, and this 110-
pounder gun had been pro uced without mature considera-
tion, owing to the exigencies which then existed. There had
been many objections to this gun, but they were gradually
being overcome—and,amongst other improvements the vast
pieces were now made of steel. Although the 110-pounders
were at present of no material use against armour-plated
ships, yet in many positions they would prove to be an ex-
tremely valuable gum—and almost all the naval witnesses,
although they condemed the use of them as a broadside
gun, still they said they would like to have a supply in
each ship, and therefore while those guns would not do all
the Government wished, still they were a very powerful
arm. The Government had nut yet adopted any guns
which would bo capable of doing effective service against
iron-plated ships. The experiments with the 110-pounders
should be a caution to them against going too fast in that
direction, especially as there was no immediate pressure
upon them for adopting any particular gun, and there was
reason to believe that no other nation possessed such a gun.
Although there was an overwhelming necessity for such a
gun, still if affairs should become more threatening, and
if this country should be called into action,it would be conso-
latory to the committee to know that this country possessed
a good system of rifling, and also a system of construction
of strong and heavy guns, which if not the best which had
yet been discovered, would be sufficient to enable them to
make guns possessing all the conditions which might be
required of them, and strong enough to pierce any target
that had yet been made. The opinions of scientific and
military men were divided between the followers of Sir W.
Armstrong and Mr, Whitworth, and there was a consider-
able difference of opinion and great uncertainty upon this
subject, and it was considered desirable that, before proceed-
ing- further upon this question, the merits of these two rival
artillerists should be tested by a Committee chosen for the
purpose.
He had explained to the house, on a former occa-
sion, the reason why there had been such great delay in

carrying out the experiments, These experiments would
have to be carefully conducted, and they would extend over
a considerable period of time ; but he hoped that in the
course of two months the ordnance select committee would
bring the investigations upon the Armstrong and Whit-
worth guns to a close. When they had once ascertained
the best gun for the service, the Government would
proceed with the utmost rapidity with the manufacture,
and orders had already been given to have a considerable
number of cast-steel blocks prepared. The experiments
which had been made upon the 600-pounder, or 13-inch
gun, were extremely satisfactory, and it would be of suffi •
cient power to blow any ship out of the water. In future
warfare he believed that the shot would exercise as much
importance upon the actual result as the quality of the
gun itself, and experiments had shown that cast-iron
shots were shattered to pieces without injuring the plat-
ing. But great improvements iu shot had taken place
during the last twelve months ; and the ordnance select
committee had been associated with the Iron-plate Com-
pany for the purpose of carrying out experiments upon
the different qualities of steel, and every kind of projectile.
with the view of having cast-steel shot of the best material.
If the Government did not possess a perfect system of guns,
it was not the fault of the Government, or of their advisers,
who had been prosecuting the experiments ; but the fault,
if fault at all, was owing to the continual changes in the
manufacture of iron plates and of guns, the whole having
been in a state of progress. He had now gone over all the
items in the estimate to which it was necessary to call
attention; and he could assure the committee that, although
it was a large estimate, the greatest care and pains had been
taken to frame it not only with a due regard to the effective
state of the army, but also with regard to real economy. If
any hon. gentleman who objected to the amount could point
out how any saving consis ent with efficiency could be made,
the Government would be glad to make it. There has been
a great increase in the expenditure ; but ho could assure
the committee that his noble friend at the head of the War
Department was most anxious to make the service efficient,
and also carry out real economy; and with this view in-
vestigations were taking place. He had endeavoured to lay
before the committee the exact state of the army, and he
would now place in the hands of the chairman the resolution
of which he had given notice. (Hear, hear.)
General PEEL expressed himself generally in favour of
a reduction of expenditure, but regretted that it was pro•
posed to reduce the Artillery force by 1.300 men ; that be-
ing the peculiar branch of the service which the late Lord
Herbert, with the approval of the house, had laboured so
successfully to increase and render efficient. He hoped that
after the narrow escape the Government had experienced
on the
_question of the Yeomanry Cavalry that evening,
they would now propose a vote to meet the expenses of the
usual six days' training, as well as of the permanent staff,
A debate ensued, in the course of which the more im-
portant items in the estimates were subjected to close scru-
tiny and examination by Mr. Bentinck, Mr. Williams, Col.
Sykes, Col. North, Mr. Childers, and Col. Dunne. Ulti-
mately the motion fixing the number of men for the service
of the year was agreed to, and the house resumed.
Sir John Lawrence's Salary Bill was read a third time
and passed.

The Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes (Ireland)
Bill was read a second time.
The other business 3n the paper was also disposed 3f,
and the house adjourned.

ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE,

HOME CIRCUIT.IHERTkoRt), March 3.

The business of these assizes was proceeded with
yesterday morning, the Lord Chief Baron presiding
in the Crown Court and Lord Chief Justice Erle at
nisi prius. There were only five causes entered on
the civil side, two of which were undefended, and
the others were of the most uninteresting description.
(Before the Lord Chief Baron.)
James Robinson, 40, a respectable-looking man,
surrendered to take his trial upon a charge of feloni-
ously receiving a bushel of a mixture of oats and
peas, the property of Philip Arnold, well knowing
the same to have been stolen.

Mr. Abel prosecuted, and the prisoner was de-
fended by Mr. Codd.

This case gave rise to rather an extraordinary
discussion between the jury and the learned judge.
The prisoner, it seemed, for a good many years
carried on the business of a dealer in seeds and
articles of that descriprion at Flamstead, and bore a
very good character, and the case against him rested
almost, if not entirely, upon the evidence of a man
named Saunders, who was in the prosecutor's ser-
vice, and who admitted with the greatest effrontery
that he had stolen his master's corn, and stated that
he had sold a bushel of it to the prisoner, who, he
said, gave him 81 for it. The prisoner did not
appear to have denied that he had purchased the
corn of the witness, but said that he told him that
he found ir, and he all along disclaimed all know-
ledge of its having come improperly into his posses•
sion. The prosecutor also appeared to have stated
that he did not believe the prisoner was guilty of
the offence, and offered to become bail for him; and
it may fairly be stated that the evidence against
the prisoner consisted chiefly of the statement made
by the admitted thief.
The Lord Chief Baron, before the learned counsel
for the prisoner commenced his address to the jury,
expressed his opinion that it would not be safe for
them to convict the prisoner upon the evidence that
had been adduced in support of the charge, and he
observed that if there had been no evidence et all
except that of the thief it would have been his duty
to have stopped the case. As there were, however,
one or two other circumstances that might be said
to corroborate the testimony of the man Saunders,
he was not justified in withdrawing the case from
their consideration, but it really appeared to him,
as he had before stated, that it would not be safe
for them to convict the prisoner upon the facts
before them-

The Jury, after a short deliberation, said they
had agreed upon their verdict, and they found the
prisoner guilty.
The Lord Chiefßaron said that he had anticipated
from the observations he had made to them that
they would have acquitted the prisoner, but before
they returned an adverse verdict, it was necessary
that they should hear the prisoner's counsel. He
was sorry that he had interfered, but he felt him-
self justified in doing so upon the facts before him,
but the counsel for the prisoner certainly ought to
be allowed to address them.

Mr. Codd accordingly made a speech to the jury
upon the evidence, and he urged upon them the
improbability that a man who was admitted on all
hands to have borne the highest character for re-
spectability for a great many years, should have
been guilty of an offence of this description, and
that the charge rested entirely upon the evidence
of a man who had unblushingly admitted himself
to be the thief, and whose object no doubt in fixing
this charge upon the prisoner was to escape punish •
went altogether, or that he might be dealt with
more leniently. He then remarked upon the good
character of the prisoner, and the fact that the pro-
secutor himself did not believe him to be guilty of
the offence, and had offered to become bail for him.
The Lord Chief Baron then briefly summed up,
repeating the opinion he had previously expressed*,
that the evidence was insufficient to establish the
charge against the prisoner.
The Jury, after a short deliberation, again re-
turned a verdict of guilty.
The Lord Chief Baron said that he could not receive
this verdict, because, upon looking at the indictment,
he found that the charge was one of receiving felo-
niously a mixture of oats and peas, whereas the only
evidence in the case, which was that of the thief,
was that he stole olear corn, and this was what he
sold the prisoner. _ _ .

The jury said they were of opinion that the evi-
dence supported the charge, and their verdict was
that the prisoner was guilty.
The Lord Chief Baron (to the jury)—l tell you,
gentlemen, that you cannot legally convict the
prisoner upon this indictment, and that you are
bound to return a verdict of not guilty.
The jury said they were ready to leave the case
in his lordship's hands.
The Lord Chief Baron said it was they who must
return the verdict. All he had to do was to direct
them upon any point of law, and he now told them
they were bound to return a verdict of not guilty.
One of the jury said he did not think so. They
then again &liberated for a short time, when the
foreman said that they could not deliver aay other
verdict than the one they had pronounced, and they
ceuld come to no other conclusion than to leave the
matter in his lordship's hands if this verdict was not
received.

The Lord Chief Baron then again explained to
the jury how the matter stood, remarking upon the
danger that would be created if persons were to be
convicted of an offence solely upon the evidence of a
witness who admitted himself to be the thief, and
whose motives for fixing the crime of receiving the
property upon another might easily be understood.
He concluded by stating that he should always up-
hold the rights and privileges of a jury, which was
an institution for which he entertained the highest
reverence and respect, but he should at the same
time firmly
uphold those of the position in which
he was placed.
The jury again deliberated, and after a short
time they gave a verdict of not guilty.
Elizabeth Walking, 24, was charged with the
manslaughter of her illegitimate child.
Mr. Bushby prosecuted. The prisoner was unde-
fended.

The prisoner was a domestic servant, and the child
in question waft an illegitimate one, about 18 months
old, At the time of its death the prisoner was liv-
ing with her mother in the neighbourhood of Hart-
ford, and it appeared that some of the neighbours
heard an outcry, and upon going into the room
where the prisoner was, they found the child insen-
sible, and the prisoner said that it had been guilty
of some dirty act, and that she had either pushed
or thrown it upon the ground, which was very hard

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 4, 1864.

and uneven, and by this means it received injuries
which caused its death. The prisoner appeared to
have always previously behaved to the child with
the utmost kindness, and she earnestly entreated
the persons about her to do something to relieve it,
and she expressed the greatest grief at what had
happened. When she was examined before the
magistrate she said she was sorry for what had
taken place, and that she pushed the child down in
a moment of passion, but she had not the slightest
intention to injure it.
The Lord Chief Baron, in summing up, said that
although the case was one very proper to be in-
quired into, it appeared to him to be an illustration
of there being a defect in the criminal code of this
country with reference to offences of this class, be-
cause whether the act was only separated by a very
fine line indeed from the crime of wilful murder, or
on the other hand, was very little may:o than an
accident, the offence was still classified as man-
slaughter. The jury, however, were the judges of
the facts; and if they should believe that the pri-
soner had no intention to injure the child, but that
for the reason she had stated she suddenly pushed
it down, and that the fatal result was to a certain
extent to be attributed to accident, they would in
that case be justified in acquitting the prisoner.
The jury returned a verdict of not guilty.

MIDLAND CIRCUIT.—WARWICK, March 3.
(Before Mr. Justice Byles.)
WIFE MURDER AT BIRMINGHAM.

George Hall, 22 years of age, by trade a stamper
and piercer of jewellery, was indicted for the wil-
ful murder of Sarah Ann Hall, his wife, the crime
having been committed at Birmingham on the 16th
of February last.
Mr. Adams appeared for the prosecution ; with
him was Mr. Buzzard. Mr. Sergeant O'Brien
defended the prisoner, with whom was Mr. Fitz•
james Stephens.
The facts of the case were somewhat singular,
and fully illustrated the truth of the saying that
"an ill marriage is a spring of ill fortune." The
prisonbr had known and courted the murdered
woman tor several years, appearing to be extremely
fond of her, and certainly desiring to marry her a
long time ago; but it does not appear as if she was
equally partial to him, for she favoured the advances
of a man named Martin Toy at the time Hall was
paying his addresses to her, and for a period of two
years she put off the prisoner's offer of marriage,
though she continued to flirt with him and Toy. At
length she consented to marry Hall, he promising
to take her to a furnished house, and they were
actually married on Christmas-day; a circle of
friends visited, Sec., but all did not go "merry as a
marriage bell," and a most unexpected conclusion
was put to the wedding-day by the newly-married
wife refusing to stay with her husband that night.
She went home and slept with her parents, while
he remained at the house of his sister. Next day
she returned, but at the end of nine days she left
him again, stating that she never would go to him
until he could get a home of his own. She kept her
word and the prisoner was left in single blessedness,
tormented with doubts, and mercilessly " chaffed"
by his shopmates as to his runaway wife. A
week or two after he was informed she was at the
Prince of Wales theatre with hie former rival, Toy,
and when she came out he demanded her wedding-
ring, and " he would have her earrings or her life."
She took out a summons against him for threaten-
ing her, but the magistrates dismissed it, and ad-
vised them to live peaceably together as man and
wife. During dinner time on the day of the mur-
der the prisoner called at the manufactory where
deceased and her mother worked, and sent a mes-
senger up to say that a man wanted to speak to her.
On going to where the prisoner was he told her he
was off to Liverpool next morning, and asked her
to meet him at seven o'clock that evening to receive
back the wedding-ring, earrings, &c. She had a
glass of ale with him while this conversation took
place, after which she returned to her work. About
five or six o'clock some one like the prisoner pur-
chased two pistols and ammunition, and when she
came out of the factory at seven they were seen
talking together in a friendly manner. He accom■
panied her home, chatted awhile; and asked de-
ceased to put on her bonnet and shawl to take a
walk, stating he was going to get what she and
her mother supposed to be the earrings. They left
about ten o'clock, and in about an hoer afterwards
the report of a pistol was heard, and her body was
picked up by a policeman in the street. She had
received the discharge of a pistol in her cheek, and
the bullet badly shattered the jaw, and lodged be-
tween the cervical vertebra and the spinal cord.
She was only able to say her husband had shot her,
dying after great agony and convulsions, An hour
or so after the firing of the pistol the prisoner went
into a vablichouse and asked some neighbours to
drink with him, as it might be the last time they
would have an opportunity of doing so. Upon being
asked what was the matter, he replied, "I have
done it. I have done for my wife. I have shot
her. I had courted her for seven years. I loved her,
we had sung together in the choir; I married her
on Christmas-day; she complained of being poorly;
she went home to sleep with her mother, and in-
stead of that she slept with another man that night,
and the night after. My family have tarned their
backs upon me ; my shopmates use me cruelly ; even
the apprentices upbraid me about my wife going
with other men ; my master uses me cruelly, what
could I do? I have done it, and lam prepared to
meet my God for it." A policeman was sent for,
and to him the prisoner also confessed his crime,
having already given up the two pistols, one of
which was loaded, and the other had been recently
discharged. As if the prisoner could not sufficiently
condemn himself out of his own mouth, he said,
when he had up the pistols, " That is the one I
did it with." _ _

The jury returned a verdict of guilty of wilful
murder, but recommended the prisoner to mercy on
account of the provocation he had received.
The Judge sentenced him to death, but gave no
hope of the recommendation being followed out—
and he advised the prisoner to prepare for death.
The prisoner addressed the Judge in a rhapso•
dical speech before the sentence was passed.