The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-04 00:00:00

" have leronalit the measure forth so early, seeing that the
Paper* had only been deli; Tered that d.sy. lie thought
this qwettien required so • ouch cousideration thateit was
.; not poesiathlta peas it in the present ses4on of Parlia-
ment. -Thee Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) he
thought had gone rather too for when he said this
meathire would be e hooa to the colony. Ho (Mr.
Smith) did not think that was all they had to consider.
eihtth .regard to the land salee they must consider
• ysliether the course proposed would not give great dissa-
tisfaction in Australia. Ho hoped the Right Hon. Gen-
elemamreuld understand that if they allowed him to
bidet; inehe Bill it was for the purpose ot their exam-
ining the papers and the Bill, and that ample time would
be given to consider it.
Mr: nun E was not satisfied with the statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman. Ho had expected Government
would have stated what their policy would ho with re-
gard to all cur colonial establishments. Whatever they
might do with regard to Crown lands, they ought to deal
with all the colonies on the same principle. And if they
continued to have nominees in the Legislative Council,
they would never give satisfaction to the colonists. An-
other thing he had expected to have heard something
about was with regard to the expense of the colonies to
the Mother country. They had not heard a word about
that. They were told by Lord Grey, two or three
years ago, that measures were in progress by which the
colocies were to bear their own expenses; and he was,
therefore, much disappointed at not hearing anything on
that subject. The Right lion. Gentleman had said he
would reserve something for the civil list. He (Mr.
Hume) did not think he ought to reserve anything.
The colonists ought to have the general management,
and it was child's play to keep them in the leading strings
in which they were now kept. He thought this was not
a measure that ought to take up the time of the House—
that it was not a measure of exigency to be passed this
session.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said When his Hon.
Friend the Member for Montrose observed that there
was no urgency with regard to this measure, he should
recollect that the measure of 1846 was a far less liberal
one, and that if this measure did not pass, they would
be obliged to pass an Act for the purpose of suspending
that Act for another year. Now, to the passiug of such
an Act he should offer all the oopositiou in his power.
Ile was anxious that the settlers in New Zealand should
have as speedily as possible the munegemont of their
thisitoe y, being
alcaoffcacitrrs,bethfor their own sakes and for the sake of
firmly convinced that until they ch-
ained it, no stop would ever be put to the immense ex-
penditure of this country (H
.or the Co oill,S.— ear,
hear.) In one respect New Zealand was the most re-
markable colony this country ever had—in proportion to
the number of its settlers and its existence, it had cost
us a larger sum of money than any other colony.
Within the last eleven years, no less than 1,600,0001
bad gone for the civil, military, and naval expenditure
connected with that colony.—(Hear, hear.) Ho bad
listened with great attention to the speech of the
Right Honourable Gentleman, and although he should
be sorry at that moment to give an opinion on the de-
tails of the measure, he thought it one of the most
liberal constitutions that had ever been offered to a
colony.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with him that there
should be one central council; he disagreed with him
that there should be nominees. He agreed with the
Righ Hon. Gentleman that, from the peculiar manner
in which New Zealand bad been colonised, that they
should develop as much as possible municipal institu-
tions, that they should divide the colony into six pro-
vinces and that each province should have a provincial
council with a president; and, in his opinion, the pre-
sident ought to be elected by the inhabitants of the pro-
vince,
Mr. F. SCOTT said with regard to the observation of
t. the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the pioposal with re-
gard to Crown lands would create a ferment in Australia,
t he could assure him that the ferment that already
e existed there on that subject could hardly be increased,
• and it was highly necessary that that question should be
a settled, and the principle recommended by Government
fs• enacted in this Parliament. Seeing that it would be
• • necessary if some such Bill as this did not pass to carry
a suspension Act, surely it ought to he the desire of
• colonial reformers, sitting on the other side of the House,
that a measure should be carried which conferred on the
colonists extensive powers of legislation, rather than that
they should carry a suspension Act.
Mr. P. HOWARD believed that the colonists of New
Zealand were most anxious for representative institu-
lions. The great difficulty Parliament had had to con-
tend with was the constitution of what might be called
the upper, house of assembly. Unless the representative
element was infused into the upper assembly, he did not
think they could give permanent satisfaction. There
might be something said in favour of the retention of
. the civil list, but he thought it desirable that the salaries
of the officers should be regulated by those who had
• Chosen New Zealand for their home. Having said thus
Much, he trusted that nothing would prevent the House
from„ proceeding with the Bill during the present session.
Ile offered his thanks to the Right Hon. Gentleman for
• the ability and zeal which he bad shown on this aces-
lion, and he should earnestly enter on a consideration of
this important subject with a view to give our fellow-
subjects in that country something like English repre-
sentation.
Sir E. N. BUXTON said he bad listened with great
satisfaction to the statement of the Right Hon. Gentle-
'tan, that with regard to the franchise there should be
to difference between the Bill of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman and that of Earl Grey. He rose for the purpose
of asking the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he could
• state what number or proportion of the natives were
likely ly to have votes in this new franchise? It seemed
to oim that the measure was a very fair scheme for the
government of New Zealand, and would give happiness
and freedom to the native population.—(Hear, hear.)
which
ADDERLEY said that almost the only point
gratednipen his ear throughout the Right Hon.
Gentleman's address was whore he thought it necessary
to enter into statistical information with regard to the
• increase
eue of the Population and commerce of New
z
emend, in order to persuade the House that the colony
was tit for representative government. Why, years ago
the colony was fit for it.—(Hear, hear.) This House
'eadei made the acknowledgment over and over again, and
tsterB of the Crown had given a broad recognition of
6 faCt•—(Hear, hear.) And he was astonished to find
that the only gentlemen who called in question the
IPekneY of dealing with this measure now were the
keg" Rona Gentleman (Mr. V. Smith), sad the Hon.
ember for Montrose (Mr. Hume). regard to the
hrew-,
e°r, that Right Hon. Gentleman must have made up
were
mind on the subject long ago, when his friends
e in office, he himself in the Cabinet, and the pre-
titration of the measure had drawn near its close. As
the the Hon. Member for Montrose, who spoke of
necessity of relieving this country from
its •
such a on account of the colonies, before
rs'a a measure as the present was introduced, he
(dlr. Adderley) would tell the lion. Member frankly
ofd fairly that he should do justice before he talked
t)c°llonly,
and
give to the colonists their rights
de before he threw upon them the expense of government.
,h; aide was the only colony England possessed which
• at", anything like its own rights, and was, moreover, be
itobserved, the only colony from which England could
withdrawits troops.—(Hear, hear.) would not
enter upon the details of the measure in its present stage;
its principle would be discussed on the second reading,
and the details would, of course, be reserved for the
Committee. But he would take that opportunity of ex-
Pteteing his gratitude, and he was authorised also to
express
the gratitude of the colony represented by gen-
tlemen now in London, to the Right Hon. Baronet for
having so promptly, upon taking office, recognised the
necessity
gonreoly of this tchriisemging
measure, and addressed himself so vi-
it forward.—(Hear, hear.) He
knew, that It W4B a considerable task, and that the Right
Hon. Gentleman had ared no pains to master the sub-
ject; and though he felt.spared that upon several points of de-
tail he differed .widel
Geneleman, yet ha I
wish
ky rnewornth the
Right Honourable
to be so strong ra• feeling in the colony
of the measure, that he was peegeasrd to the urgency
than content—he was Lotsgrate 7.01. Y content an more
merging these differences as detailthe opportunitysi,leand accepting the
of
efeternaiive of a
measure proposed, rather than take t
thirw.deovner, to which he
New Zealand.
further suspension of the constitution
. Gentleman'
There were two points in the Bill
was anxious of directing the Right n
uttention, and the first was the compositigon
reao:f
illeoest
Upper Chamber. That it shheoultdhobuegehzzased -f: the
- nominees of the Crown was,
uPatt the measure, for the system of nomieation stunk
in the nostrils; of the colonists, and the proposed ohamber
Would be a mere caricature of our House of Lords. The
Other point was the very subordinate position in which
the Provincial Legislatures would be placed. They
ould be wholly under the control of the Central Lea.
;cure, and, in fact, that body would be the only legtes
'ature in the colony. In so framing the constitution, he
thought the Right Hon. Baronet was putting " the
before the horse."—(Laughter.) It contemplated
Which
subjects in the hands of the Central Legislature
"'h would be better under the control of the Provin-
elal
Legislatures; and as an illustration of this he
tett mention -the land fund. In this particular the
lion. Gentleman had rather diminished than
CaProhved the provision which formed a statesmanlike
D the plan of Earl Grey. What fear there
oeeti ba of vesting in the Provincial Legislature the ma-
ngenlent of their land funds, he (Ur. Adderiey) was
l'ul4ll3' at acolony was eaten up
1,10,105 s to conceive. The
. had' °Owe mismanagement. Six years ago the colonists
eepteeted of the Colouial Secretary of that day per-
thisle/
to build a lighthouse at Port Nicholson; the
60'tathirere ready, and all that was reuired was that the
e "AM Secretary should get an Acts passed for the pure
rose ia tahthe British Parliament. Yet from that day to
thPrevent the lighthouse was not built. In the same
they had been unable to get moorings put down in
chdr. harbour. He looked forward now, however, to a
:_°ge of all that, and he could not but express his es-
h )
d4etion that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir. J. Pa-
helugton had not allowed the colonists to suffer from tt
'4lg° of Government h home,with •
n ere at which they
to
,r.othing to do, but that he had deemed it his duty
thoudoig in a measure conferring constitutional rights on
`4lonists, on behalf of whom, and of the agents of
6(li• odieny in this country, he begged to thank the Right
eientleman for having placed the subject tvi'h h
ts• ro__?s,ability before the House. 4 6"
suea7d• RUSSELL thought the Right Hon. Gentle-
hid have been justified in merely introducin a
to suspend the constitution fur another year; gbut
Z3_ he had when the pains to prepare a new constitution,
rhe Was entitled to the gratitude of the House for the,
estrpeoedutotion of the present measure.—(Cheers.) With
to the measure itself, he (the Noble Lord)
trusted there would not be any considerable opposition
to it iu that House, and he hoped he might be able to
50Pport it on some of the points on which the Hon. Gen-
tle
tiolahri(iMiencA.oudndeehiley) had threatened it with opposi-
hai±tve the authorityl agihecinted by the Crown was not to
it used to possess; but as
'wire was no precedent whatever of the working of an
elective council, he thought the Right Elm Gentleman

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W 53 quite justified in introducing the former kind of
council into his constitution. Theni.e, was another point
upon which he could: not gather what was the precise
intention of the 13,7ght Hon. Gentleman. The qiee3tion
S n this colony mis, not the mere givitee of a eonst.itniieri
to a number of 'Bri;isla subjects who had been used to
the working of the aiepresentativn machinery in Clis
country; but there were. 100,000 or more of native
population, come of whom were undoubtedly mahing
great advances in civilization, but others of whom
were not anion advanced from the state in which they
orizinally were. Now the Right lion. Gentleman pro-
posed that where a native held the Qualification re-
quired at the British settlers, he should have the same
right to vote; and the tame franchise, as a British
settler. That would be a convenient arrangement in, a•
restricted settlement, but where they had a settlement
of considerable limits they would give the franchise to
a considerable number of the native population, who
would be ignorant as to the mode of carrying on en
election, or selecting proper representatives. On the
other hand, it would be felt a great grievance if any
difference was placed between them and the settlers, and
this was the great ditE2nlty of Sir G. Grey. Sir. G.
Grey -e.-5; a very able man, but he knew that with
these 100,000 native s it would have been very difficult
to prevent i,-epropex Acts from paseinge and yet to
have deprived them of the franchise would have been a
very considerable grievance. How the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman proposed to deal with this matter he did not at
present entirely understand. The ,peint was, what
would be th.: limit of the General Assenahly's jurisdic-
tien ? With respect to the measure itself; he should be
happy to afford it every facility in his power.
Mr. AGLIONBY was strongly opposed to the
placing of the fends in the hands of the colonists until
they had paid off the debt. The Now Zealand Company
had a lien upon those lands, and it had certainly done
teach to entitle it to the consideration of the louse, in
having purchased all the rights of the French settlers,
and made the island en entirely British colony. If they
removed the lands from the Crown, the company would
lose its only statutable claim; and he entreated the
House not to sanction such a breach of faith. Refer-
ence had been made to the Crown lands of the Australian
colonies, but there was a most important difference be-
tween the royal demesnes in the two colonies—inas-
much as in New Zealand more than 9-10ths of them

States about the (Oregon territory. There was a strong pro-
bability of war, and an increase of 1,000,000/. or 1,200,000/.
was, agreed to in the navy estimates. We then formed-
what was called a squadron of evolution ; it manceuvrßl
near our own shores; the Queen paid a visit to it; and it
-way Fail at the time that there was as large a force in that
squadron ,as had gained the battles of the Nile or Tra-
faig47.—(Hear, hoar.) The Oregon dispute was settled;
but the squadron was not at all reduced. Then came the
dispute with Franca about the Spanish marriages. The
dynasty of France had passed away like a dream; and, in-
stead of coming here as invaders, had been glad to receive
our hospitality.—(Clicers.) Still these preparations had con-
' tinned, and that on a scale large enough to meet hostili-
ties_ from a power far more formidable than France ; for
there is no doubt the United States is far more powerful;
and you have all the force you prepared to meet that
power, and also the force you prepared to meet France.
This, year we have voted 39,000 seamen and boys, and 5,000
for a reserved force in all 44,000. Ycu have, therefore,
all that you ever had during the time I am speaking of.
There is no authentic source from which I can ascertain
the exact state of our naval forces. No annual report is
made of the number of vessels—where they are stationed—
how many are in course of construction or in ordinary. We
have to hunt through the military or naval periodicals to
find this out, and then we do not find the number of men.
The only source from which I cart obtain the latest correct
account of our naval forces is -from the speech of the late
First Lord of the Admiralty in moving the navy estimates

for 1850, and he says that we then had 252 ships in corn-
mi;thion 263 advanced and in ordinary, and 6 ready to be
launched. This is, in round numbers, ships built and build-
ing, 500. I have no doubt our present naval force amounts
to very much the same. How is that naval force di nosed
of ? Here again I ani just in the same difficulty. I know
not where to apply to know•where the vessels are stationed,
and what is the.amount of force on each stalon. But the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Home Secretary, in introducing
this Militia Bill, on the 29th of March, told us the number of
vessels at home ready to sail. He said: "Your ships in
commission on the home-station at this moment are, 9 vessels
of war, 5 frigates, 1 sloop, 9 steamers propelled by screw,
and 8 propelled by paddle." And he grounded his Militia
Bill on the statement that that was all the force we had to
protect our shores. But when the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary for the Navy spoks he said he had to add to

hese therfollowing list
" Thera were at Woolwich nine vessels with 530 men ;
Sheerness, seven, with 1,544 men; Portsmouth, sixteen,
with 6,642 men; Devonport, eleven, with 2,822 men; Cork,
five, with 363 men; in all, 48 vessels end 11,006 men. To
them acid the Hecate (cruising), 160 men ; Pluto, 55 ; An-
telope, 55; Vulcan, 152; making in all 52 vessels and
12,328 men, exclusive of 4,500 marines on shore, and coast-
guard and dockyard battalions; in all 29,643 men. In ad-
dition he had to mention that the Simoom and Vulcan,
large screw-steamers, were each capable of moving a regi-
ment, and there were several small steamers besides."
This is a very different statement from the former. What
I wish to have is an exact statement, such as I have moved
for, of the number of ships aavanced, in commission, and in
ordinary. Then comes the important question, how are our
ships disposed of on foreign station'? I served twelve
months on the Naval Committee of 1848, and I came to the
conclusion that there is a great waste of the public money in
keeping large ships on distant stations under the plea of
protecting our commerce, for which purposes they are never
available.—(Hear, hear.) The Secretary for the Admiralty
also gave us, in that same speech, the amount of our naval
forces on the different foreign stations, which consist of seven
—the East Indies and Chin a the Pacific or west coast of
America. the south-east coast of America, the west coast of
Africa, the Cape of Good Hope, North America and the West
Indies. and the Mediterranean. He says that—
" The whole of her Majesty's ships in commission were—
in the East Indies and China, 19; Cape of Good Hope, 9 ;
coast of Africa, 22; on the south-east coast of America the
number of ships was 8; west coast of America, 9; North
America and West Indies, 13; Mediterranean, 19."
On referring to the report of the Naval Committee, I find
that in 1837 there were only ten ships on that station, and
that we bad been keLping three or four vessels for some
years on the coast of New Zealand, in consequence of the
aroubles 'there. Now that we propose to give a constitution
to New Zealand, and to hand over all the waste lands to the
local Legislature, we may partly dispense with two or three
of these • one ship will be sufficient to be left there.—(Hear,
hear.) I dare say the war in Burmah will be urged against
our bringing home more ships from China and the East
Indies. But while we have nineteen ships stationed in those
seas, the East India Company have also a large fleet for
the protection of commerce, and they profess entirely to
protect their own shores; therefore whatever force we have
sp rp
there must de entirely for the protection of our trade to ,
China, and not to the East Indies. Looking at the amount
o
ot rht
as t
immense
China
fleetand itsh the
altogether Eastern d
i
Archipelago,
00rti0
n the
ed
expense our
se
to it and to the wants of the case. To place large ships of
peoxfp
war to serve as a police, where the only enemies of coin-
• meree are pirates who keep the shallow waters, in like em-
ploying a field battery to look after pickpockets in the
courts and alleys of the metropolis.— (Cheers and laughter.)
You have paid head-money for the slaughter of 10,000 per-
sons, about 100,0001. in two years. The ships employed
have all been small vessels,- and in destroying that amount
of pirates you have 'not lost a man; there has not beeen
such an amount of resistance as to cost you the life of a single
individual. To keep very large vessels in these seas is
quite unnecessary. I think our admirals might agree, as
our commodores do, to hoist their flag on board a frigate
where a line-of-battle ship was proved not to be necessary.
—(Hear.) The Pacific, or west coast of America station,
was formerly united -with the coast of South America; but
in 1833 it was formed into a separate station. The Right
Hon. Gentleman tells us we have seventeen ships there—
nine on the Pacific, and eight on the Atlantic station. A
large increase took place on this station in consequence of
the threatened rupture with America on the boundary
question, and the dispute going on in Buenos Ayres. Du-
ring six years we have had an average of -2,000 men and
ten ships of war lying in the River Plate, interfering in that
dispute; and yet we effected no good whatever. I believe the
merchants themselves at last agreed that our interference had
done more harm than good, and had retarded the progress of
negotiation. Now, General Rosas,like many potentates on this
side the Atlantic, has become expatriated, and is in this
country; so there isan end to all necessity for interfering in
the affairs of the River Flate.—(Hear, hear.) You may
safely take away six ships from that station, leaving 11, and
then you will have a largei force to protect your commerce
than the United States has, though their trade is much
greeter since the discovery of the gold of California. On
the west coast of Africa the Right Hon. Gentleman tells us
there are 22 ships. Tho number there is nearly doubled
since 1836. I say, bring home every one of those ships,
which you are not compelled to keep there by treaty with
other powers—France or America.--(Hear, hear.) I do not
know whether any of them have been transferred to Brazil,
but if they have they will be far more likely to do harm
than good.—(B hear.) I now come to the Cape of
Good Han, and where-the H mourable Gentleman said we
had nine -vessels. Now, ag ' the Kafir war may be urged
as a reason for not removing any of our vessels from that
station, I will say not one word in favour of removing a
single vessel from that station pending the Kafir war.—
(Hear, hear.) I come next to the West Indian and North
American station, where we have thirteen ships, and in pro-
portion to our trade with those places there is no portion
of our commerce which required so little protect* as that
with North America.—(Hear, hear.) It would be an insult
to the United States to say that we required vessels to pro-
tect our commerce there.—(Hear.) They do not send chips
to this country to Protect their commerce here.—(Hear.)
And if you attend to your own affairs, and do not meddle in
those of others, you have very little occasion for ships in
North America.—(Hear, hear.) As to the Vest Indies,
d, of course,
you are trading with your own colonies,
oannth at coasutr.se,
you don't require any great force of ships
th t
(Hear, hear.) And here, again I must obseryTe,es andilaon-
thing is so useless as a line-of-battle ship on the t I
coast. I am told that at Kingston the tactile give balls and
entertainments on board these ships, but as to the use of a
line-of-battle ship to' protect our commerce in the West
Indies, it has none whatever. (Hear, hear.) I would with-
draw four out of these thirteen vessels from the North
Ame-
rican and West Indian station, and I would have them of the
larger size.—(Hear, hear.) I now come to the last and
seventh station--that of the Mediterranean. We have thin-
teen vessels on this station. Now it is stated in the evidence
of Sir G. Cockburn, that in his opinion six frigates and one
line-of-battle ship was as large a force as would be required
on this station in time of peace.—(Elear, hear.) Bat at
this mothent we have six or seven line-of-battle ships with
twelve or thirteen smaller vessels, being the largest collec-
tion of vessels on any'station 'sailing under th orders of
Admiral Dundas from Malta to Cephalonia and Smyrna.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, I want to know if you are really se-
rious when you say that there'is danget of an invasion, be-
cause, if you are, your conduct is that either of children or
of madmen, to leave your own shores unprotected whilst
you have the largest concentration of vessels you possess
1,200 miles distant.—(Hear, hear.) My proposition is that
you should bring home ten out of these nineteen vessels, and
leave nine, which is three more than Sir G. Cockburn said
wouldthe necessary.—(Near, hear.) Bear in mind that I
do not propose to bring these vessels home in order to dis-
mantle them, or to lay them up in ordinary; bat as You say
that there is danger of an invasion, and that it is therefore
necessary to enrol a militia, I say bring home these vessels
—have them in Spithead, or Cork, or Plymouth, instead of
the Mediterranean.---(Hear, hear.) But I hear this objec-
tion—if you bring back the fleet in the Mediterranean, then
France, which has made a great diminution of vessels in
her northern ports, will bring back her ships into the Chan-
nel, and then we would be, no better off than we were be-
fore. Well,. but if this' be so, 'what becomee of all the rea-
sons which were given for increasing our navy?—(Hear.)
I have heard it said that France had no reason to be afraid
of our large navy; that this was en island, that we had a
large commerce to protect, and that we wanted a large fleet;
that we were Rot a great military power, and that our having
a large fleet ought not to raise the susceptibility of any other
country. But now, when I say, bring your fleet home, I
am told, " Oh, it will raise the susceptibility of France, and
they will bring-their fleet to the northern ports, and so we
must become a military nation."— (Hear, hear.) If this be
true, you have obtained the increase of your navy under
false pretences.—(Hear, hear.) I say if you apprehend an
invasion bring home your fleet from the Mediterranean, and
France would have no right to feel jealous so long as she
kept up a standing army of 350,000 men, whilst we had only
a small army, and which I hope the good sense of the people
of this country will not permit, to be increased.—(Hear, hear.)
We have this fleet 1,200 miles off, and then the Hon.
Gentleman tells us, as he did the other night, that Hull
and Dundee, and some other places, were left wholly
unprotected.—(Hear, heir.) Surely this was either a
joke or an insult to, our understandings.—(Hear, hear.)
Why, five of the places which were said to be undefended
sent petitions against the Militia Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
I have been arguing on the assumption of the advocates of
a miiitia that we want -more defences. But I confess I do
not seeeeny present danger in any direction—(Hear)—and I
havee not beard one fact urged that should excite any appre-
hension.—(Hear.) We have had every assurance that
couldn be given that no further measures were necessary.
Bueit-has been •
lion't beeVeth said, we are liable to war at any time. I
oned against t,.F.d, the reason that people have peti-
a militia is that
practicablei that we at they don't believe it likely or
people would read
may have a war at any moment. If
what took place • history,. and more especially the. details of
and our nearest neighbour
to the raptures between this coun-
trythey would see that ighbour during tholast hundred years,
a sudden. Did the d war was not likely to be rushed upon on
a sudden? In 1792 we
eeewmtion of war in 1793 take place on
when the King was withdrew our ambassador from France
put to d
the public functions of the French, and we gave notice that
this country. But the French Ambassador, Ambassador ceased in
re-
mained here in his private capacityl.o M. Chauvelin,
and during that time he made every,fromeffort August till February,
ties. Many representatives from FrEince lead t o avert hostili-
had private interviews with Mr. Pitt, and ticiome here, and
was almost forced to leave this country. ate ambassador
six months after the ambassador had left tlalts not tile
countries came into actual hostilities,—(Heatr,thiel two
Again, after the treaty of Amiens, in 1802— a treaty ea:r.
everybody knew would which
not last—although there was what
was almost tantamount to a declaration of war on the Bth of
March, 1603 ; and although Bonaparte went so far as to .I
offer a persona
1 insult to our ambassador, Lord Whitworth,
d it extrem (DE I
yet Lord Whitworth founey cult to obtain

had como into the possession of the Crown undpr tiro
Act of 1847. The only mode in which they could cut
the Gordian knot would be to give the company a home

. _
guarantee, instead of its present toeurity. woniti bo
the cheapest coursc, for combined with proper reforms,
they might save it by 10,0001. or 15,000/. a year. At

all events, he supported the grant of a constitution to
the peoplo of New Zeeland.
Mr. GLADSTONE 'suggested that the plan referred
t--) as having been prepared by the late Colonial Govern-
ment should be laid on the table of the [tense.
Colonel THOMPSON begged to offer the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir J. Pekiegton) a warmer congratulation
than any that he had yet been!. Did the Rsiett Hon.
Gentleman know that ho was proposing a system of
colonial policy that would pet into our possession es
eaueh of the empire of the world as an honest man would
wish to acquire? He thought that a few moments
might be uselully employed in pointing out the import-
ance of the principle which the Right Hon. Geutletnan
has been the fortunate means of bringing forward and
putting into execution. The great bane and injury of
our colonial system had always been the cliff,rence of
races; but now of that difference the Fight. don. Gen-
tLetnan was likely to see the end. We were now in the
same position toward the natives as that in which his-
tory informed us the Romans stood to our rude fore-
fathers. The Right Honourable Baronet had given them
evidence that the native inhabitants of that colony were
as nearly as possible- in the condition our forefathers
were. He was not sure whether our forefathers ate
anybody, but it was quite certain they roasted
them.—(Laughter.) These natives were to partici-
pate in the betecfis of the cons•itution of this country;
end be hoped that when the present race of states-
men had long passed from this sublunary scene the
Right Hon. Baronet would be quoted as having laid
the foundation of au emptie more extensive than would
otherwise have fallen to our share.—(dear, hear.) It
had not been stated what was to be the qualification of
the elected; if it was to be the same as that of the elec-
tors he should be quite content. He did not approve of
the proposal that 7,0001. should be expended for the
benefit of the natives. Why should they be treated as
children?

Sir JOHN FAKING TON said that after the cordial
manner in which his proposal had been received, ho felt
sanguine, with every disposition to meet all fair amend-
ments, that the Bill might become low this session. He
had not anticipated any objecqon to his measure from
such a friend to local self-government as the Hon.
Member for Montrose. He wistied to supply an Omis-
sion in his first statement, on the financial part of the
question. By a statement in his hand, he found that
the animal expenditure of this country for the govern-
ment of New Zealand, not including the maintenance of
the military force, had fluctuated from 20,0001. up to
36,000/. a year. In addition there was a vote in 1843
of 54,0001.; and in 1850 of 21,000/., for additional ex-
penses above the sums he had mentioned. In the esti-
mates of colonial expenditure for the present year, this
item would be reduced to 10:000/.; next year he hoped
it would only be 5,0001.; and after that there was every
reason to believe that New Zealand would be altoge-
ther self-supporting.—(Hear, hear.) He had been asked
as to the limits to be assigned to the several provinces.
Sir George Grey, in his last dispatch, stated that each
of tio British settlements had now attracted to it a sur-
rounding ppulation of the native race; the two races
stood to each other in the relation of landlord and tenant
and were insensibly forming one community.—(Hear,
hear.) These natives were entitled to share the priei-
lege. of their fellow-citizens. They were 120,000 in
number; they varied very much In their degree of civi-
lizttion; many lived in dietricis which might not be in-
cluded in the different provinces; and it was to promote
their civilization, by schools and other means, that
the 7,000/. was proposed to be voted. The Governor
would be empowered to prescribe the limits of the dif-
ferent provinces; and there would no doubt be a very
large district which would not he contained in these
provinces. Sir George Grey proposed to introduce mu-
nicipal arraugeatents for the different classes; and be
believed the object respecting which the Noble Lord
(Russell) had put a question would be attained. But,
certainly, the Central Legislature would have a general
control over the whole of the islands. He had no objec-
tion to the plan of Sir George Groy being printed for
the tre of the House.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that plan had never been duly
considered by the Legislature.
Leave was then given to introduce the Bill.
THE MILITIA BILL.
On the motion that the House should go into Committee
on this Bill,

Mr. COB-DEN rose and spoke as follows : -Mr. Speaker,
Had the majority in the division on the second reading of
this Bill fairly represented either the population or the
wealth of this country, I should not have ventured to offer
one word more, either to resist or delay the progress of the
measure. But I have the sanction of the highest Minister
of the Crown for the course I have taken on this questio,n.
I have taken the division lists and analysed them; and,
amongst that large majority of 2 to 1 who voted in favour of
the Militia Bill, 1 find\ not the representatives of any of the
large centres of intelligence, industry, and wealth, of any of
our large city populations. In the minority I find the re-
presentatives of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Birming-
ham, Westminster, Southwark, Marylebone, Lambeth,
Tower Hamlets, Finsbury, Greenwich—the largest of our
borough constituencies; also, Newcastle, Hull,Southampton,
Oxford, York, Stockport, Worcester, Sheffield, Northamp-
ton, Huddersfield, Aberdeen, Canterbury, Montrose, Bath,
Dundee, Coventry, Leicester, Preston. -The City of London
and Liverpool were divided on this question. Leeds and
another place were also divided; but the two Members
who voted for the militia have declined again to canvass
for their seats. Middlesex and West Yorkshire are divided.
I can say for myself, knowing what is the state of public
opinion in West Yorkshire, that next to free trade there is
no one question on which I would more fearlessly go to that
constituency for re-election than as an opposer of the Militia
Bill.—(Cheers.) In addition to this test we have 800 peti-
tions against the Bill ; and all the large towns in the king-
dom are in opposition to it. We have not had one petition
nor one meeting in its favour.—(Cheer.) I do not pretend
to say that the Government is not competent to proposesuch
a Bill ; but these facts afford fair ground, at all events, why
I should move a reconsideration of the measure.— (Hear,
hear.) I wish there facts to be known, not only in this
country but in a neighbouring country. I wish them to
know that the great centres of intelligence and population
in this country do not join with those gentlemen in this
House who call themselves statesmen, forsooth, and who
rise in their places— possessing great authority on other ques-
tions which is evidently lost on this —and tell us that we are
in danger from our neighbours, and must be prepared for in-
vaseion by a horde of savages.—(Laughter.) It is evident
on other occasions? ttohtalTraat mass of the intelligent people of this country
y disbelieve it.--(Cheers.) Nor is this to be taken as
an expressionfof opion that the population are inlifferent to
the security
himself into a Genaetrill
the realm. Have have the population acted
Sudden the land seemed converted to an immense
appeared for a time toa
"On a Sir Walter Scott tells us—
"On
the whale n
the nation to defend the"
into soldiers, and the good old King
-itisChief. All peaceful considerations
Parliament, and inthrown aside, and the voice calling
idearest rights sounded, not only in
of defence, but was meetingsl
the voice of devotion."
convoked to second the mea-
suresment, and mingled even with d in the places of public amuse
went,
is it that the people ,
Where out of doors do not do on this
, w
question as on all others
dence of this House?—(Cheers, ) Inoecessary, , take prece-
not given us the lead ?....(Hear hear
because they do not believe that there) is it that they have
* Simply and solely
atom of alarm, and because they believlea they ground for an
made abundant sacrifices out of their resources,have already
meet all the dangers that may impend over sufficient to
the COU ry
They think, after voting fifteen millions of their moneynta'n.
nually—a suns which would build a Manchester or iCs.
year—that in the present state of the affairsl --
go ar every of
the 'world there is no necessity why they should leave their
occupations and turn soldiers in their own defence
profitable
(Hear,
am
going to deal on
at a shilling a day.— , hear.) I
the present occasion,
navy, w
not with your army, but with your
which we have been taught to consider the safeguard
of England. The "wooden walls of old England" cost a
great deal to this country ; and it is the opinion of the country
that they ought to be able toprotect us. We vote 6,500,0001.
for our navy and naval establishment:, including the packets
for the Post-office service ; and I include those, because in
the case of hostilities, the very brunt of the war would be
borne by those packets,
which are larger than the Govern-
rnent steamers, and would be able to catch anything, or run
sway from anything; therefore I say they arc one of the
back ,
(Hear
most essential parts of the navy.— .--- •) Going
wto
e
1835, I find we spent only 4,500,0001. on our navy.
have since increased that expenditure 2,000,0001. Why, to
meet the very difficulties and contingencies v hich you n,w
sIY you are making provision for. In 1836, it was said we
were going to have war with Russia, and you added 5.000
men to your navy. There was no war with Russia, but the
additional forceup.ln 8 was kept 1 41 and 1842 you bad
difficulties in
China and Syria, and a threatened ruptures
with France; and in 1842 occurred the difficulty
with America about the Maine boundary. W e
I added to our navy then on account of the war in China
1 and Syria, and the chance of a rupture with the United
States. Those - difficulties passed
away, but the navy
I was never reduced. In '1845, there was a very
grave and serious alarm of a rupture with the United

T 1...1 7::' ";: ` ''' V

vENINO

M A NY

I could not help express,ing hie surprise at the whole tone of
Hthe clehate.—( Hear, hear.) It really seemed to him !het
they would ignore England's being a maritime natioa
at all.—( Har, hear.) It appeared to him as it
it was a Parliament in Poland, meditating in
what way an incursion. front Russia was to be resisted.
quite forgetting that we had a moat around us called the
British Channel.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the
Member for Tiverton had talked of 60,000 men coming to
Cherbourg and walking from their barracks on board ship,
cud landing in England without anything been known about
it; bet the Noble Lord wholly omitted one important con-
sideration, that thare, was no railway to Cherbourg, nor was
it likely there would he. But still, admitting these 60,000
men were at Cherbourg, there was yet a want. remaining
most necessary to facilitate their operations, and that was
ships to walk into.--(Hear, hear.) He would try to throw
some light upon this mutter. First, then, with regard to
those terrible steam bridges on which these Were -to,
cross the Channel; he would beg to read to the House a
statement of the comparative strength of the English and
French steam navy, that respecting the English fleet
being taken from the navy estimates of 1818; that of
France from their official navy list. In 1818 it appeared that
Great Britain had belonging to the royal navy 174 steam-
vessels of all classes, being an aggregate of 41,480_
horse power; or, deducting packets, tenders, and yachts
there were 103 steam-vessels available for purpo-e.
of war; namely, 4 line-of-battle ships, 23 frigates, 48
sloops, and 28 gun-vessels, of an aggregfve of 82,327 diorse
power. By the Etat Generale Se la Marine, which is
the official French navy list, of the year 1849, the steam
navy of France consisted of 78 vessels of all classes,
of an aggregate of 17,740 horse-power. Bat, de-
ducting 20 small vessels called avisos, in like manner
as is dons from the British steam navy, it will leave
for purposes of war a French steam navy of only 58 vessels,
namely, 17 frigates, le corvettes or sloops, and 20 avisos of
the first class—answering to what we class as gun-vessels—
being in all 15,740 horse-power, Sa that at these periods,
say about three years since, the British war steam navy
was nearly double the number of vessels, and something;
more than double the steam - power, of that of France.
He would now make a comparison of the commercial steam
navies of the two countries. In the year 1849 an estimate
furnished from the Board of Trade gave the whole com-
mercial steam shipping of France at 3,090 horse-power, aed
about 10,000 tons, and he believed no great addition had
been since made to it. He (Mr. Anderson) stated recently,
when he brought forward the question of rendering
part of our commercial steam navy available for the
national defence in case of need, that the United Kingdom
had about 1,300 steam-vessels, of all clasees, in its commer-
cial navy, of an aggregate of 300,000 tons, and upwards of
100,000 horse-power. He stated that as an approximate
estimate. Since then, a return which he moved for had
been printed. It showed that, on the Ist of January last, the
registered steam-vessels of the United Kingdom amounted
to 1,218 vessels; and as he was aware from private, but ac-
curate, sources of informatien, that there were at least 100
steam-vessels in advanced states of construction, or since
completed, at the various ports of the .kingdom, he con-
sidered his statement was fully borne out. He had made
an analysis of the return alluded to, that is of vessels of 200
tons and upwards, which would stand thus :

a passport, and his attaché had to hunt
Talleyrand through-
out the provinces of France before he could get one; and
.
it was not till the following May that the two countries
came ntrieis
came into collision —(Hear, hear-) France could view ,
as no light matter to be brought into collision with a people
so-brave, so energetic, and possessed of such great resources
as the people of Englend.—(lrear, hear.) But
then it is
said that the present tiller of France is not to be
trusted—that he is a man who would disregard all ,
inter-
national considerations of policy and justice. Nov, vc.l--,, .3
1.
ever may b 3 said of the present ruler of France, if inertl. T
to be taken as a test of success—and I am afraid we areT all
N
too much disposed to regard it in that light—Louis ape-
leon had shewn no want of talent. Whatever may be thougkii:,
of his moral sentiments, he has shown that he was no bloc •
head. -(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He had reached the
highest post in the state, the people seemed to acqTesce
in ale role and he obtained a larger civil list than the Queen
of Enzland --(Hear, hear.) It was all couleur ds rose with
t
him, and vet we are told that this man is going depart
Irene all recognised principles of international action, an
to
and
that he is going to invade our shores.—(Hear.) I have a
tliend in France whose name, if I quoted it, would be re-
ceived with respect net only in this House, but everywhere
if
in Europe. I wrote to him on this subject, to ascertain
he could give any information to confront the most silly panic
that ever was known in this country. Here is his answer,
comprised in two lines :—" Louis Napoleon, if he made war,
urns:: do it through one of his generals. If that general
eves successful he would eclipse him ; if he was nee; he would
ruin hirn."—(Hear, hear.) But understand tbat lam not
here asking you to trust the good faith or forbearance of
anybody—(Hear)—but I say that Louis Napoleon is not
so foolish as to contemplate anything so suicidal as a
buccaneering attack on our shores would be.—( Hear, hear.)
When we hear that he is dispatching astute diplomatists to
the north and to the south, and that he is everywhere
carrying on negotiations to attach persons to his interest
and cause, was it, to be supposed teat at this very time
he was going to run his head into a war with England,
and that he was going to invade us with some 15,000 or
20,000 men ?—( Hear, hear.) 1 have heard it said by the
Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, that it was possible
for the present ruler of France to invade this country by
rending 50,000 or 60,000 men from Cherbourg in the night.
When I hear such statements as that, it accounts sufficiently
for alt the old statesmen sitting on this si .e of the house out
of office.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Audi do not wonder
that Lord Derby should hope
to find new "diggins" end
new veins, and that he should discard the old
" placers."—(Much laughter and cheering.) Surely it
is little less than an insult to the good sense of the country
to make such a prediction as that.—(Hear, hear.) Will
any man say that 60,000 men could be brought to Cher-
bourg, and landed in this country without our having a
month's notice of it?—(Hear.) I wish we had a Committee
sitting on the national defences, and I should be glad to in-
quire of the Adjutant-General the necessary equipment to send
60,000 men into a country, and more especially into a country
that had a hostile fleet which ruled the seas, and was ready
to intercept and cut off all retreat.—(gear, hear.) I should
like to ask what cavalry would be required, for I presume
that when this army lands here, they do not mean to run
about and catch horses.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.). I
should like to know what amount of artillery and commis-
sariat stores would be requisite.—(Hear.) Such a statement
as the one to which I have referred is a mockery of the good
sense of the people of England ; and the people of England,
by the public meetings which they held on this subject,
and the petitions which they presented to this House,
showed that they did not believe in the possibility of such
a sudden invasion.— (Hear, hear.) But this argument is
used, that the application of steam to the purpose of naviga-
tion exposes us to invasion. I believe lamto be followed by
a gentleman who has more expe,ience and technical infor-
mation in these matters than I have, and he will tell you how
absurd it is to suppose that the application of steam to navi-
gation has given advantages to the other nations of Europe
over us. Why, coal and iron, the chief elements in steam
navigation, we possess in greater abundance, and of finer
quality, than all the nations of Europe put together. In
cotton-spinning or manufactures did steam give greater ad-
vantages to other countries than to England ?—(Hear.) If
not why should steam give them greater advantages in its
application to navigation ?—(llear. ) But it is said steam-
boats' would enable an enemy to leave their ports at any '
time to invade England. But did not steam enable us
also to send out our steamboats to the ports of France?
—(Hear, hear.) Formerly the same wind that blew the
French vessels towards our ports, prevented us from meeting
those vessels--(Hear, hear.) It was then impossible to
sail a line-of-battle ship in the wind's eye; but now, how-
ever the winds blows, we can send our vessels to Boulogne or
to Cherbourg; and, what is more, they can remain before
these ports like a rock, thus hermetically sealing up these
ports. - (Hear, hear.) When Lord Nelson was blockading
the port of Boulogne he was frequently driven away for
three weeks together, but that could not occur now with
steam-vessels.—(Hear, hear.) The authorities of the Post-
office can tell you how often their steam-vessels have failed
of reaching that port. Now this gave us a greater advan-
tage than any other country, because we had a far greater
steam force, and I have no doubt it increased our defensive•
power ten times.—(Hear,hear.) A return had just been
laid on the table of the House, from which it appears that we
are possessed of 1,300 steam-boats. This is a larger
i
number of steam-vessels than s possessed by all the
together. (Hear, hear.)
nations of Europe put
And we are now building others, which would give
us double as many as all the nations of the continent of Eu-
rope possessed.—(Hear, hear.) I could not say the same of
sailing vessels, because there are a large number of sailing
vessels building in the Baltic ports, but there are no
means of constructing steamers in these ports.— (Hear, hear.)
I will quote to you the evidence of naval men on this tub-
ject. Admiral Berkeley, on the 31st of March, 1845, before
this absurd discussion arose, says—" The Executive Go-
vernment of England had it in their power, at little or no
expense, to have a fleet of steamers equal not only to France,
but to the whole world. Let them look at the ports of Lon-
don, Liverpool, Glasgow, and all our out ports, and they
would see what a vast number of steamships might in a very
short time be made available for the purposes of a steam
war." Admiral Dundas said, on the 26th of July, 1844,
that we possessed 1,000 merchant steamers, 280 of which
were large enough to carry 32-pounders—a force which
is sufficient to overcome the combined fleet of the rest of
the world. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
to the Navy ueder Sir R. Peel's Government (Mr. Corry)
said that in case of a war we were able to command ten times
the force of any country on the continent, and that three
months after a declaration of war not one of the merchant
vessels could b 3 found at sea.—(Hear, hear.) Do you sup-
pose that the French Government—do you suppose that
Louis Napoleon, who resided in this country—are ignorant
of these facts ? —(Hear, hear.) Why, France :does not pos-
sess a single ocean steamer, and my Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber-for Orkney says that we have in our mercantile marine
20-horse power in stea for every one-horse power possessed
by France, and I belie m
ve he has not exaggerated in the least.
—(Hear, hear.) We are told that this steam navigation he's
made a bridge over the Channel, and this parrot cry has beets
taken up, and repeated from one mouth to the other. But I
hope that in future we are done for ever with this foolish no-
tion. Well, then, if etearn has been of such use to our ene-
mies by sea—an advantage
which we share equally with
them—how much had railways added to our sensed security
in affording us increased facilities for the transmission of
troops from one part of the country to another?—(Hear.)
I have here a few lines from the evidence of Sir W. Gor-
don, the Quartermaster-General, given before the Railway
Committee in 1841, in which,
he stated that in two years from December 31, 1841, to De-
women, on this very point,
cember 31, 1843, there were 130,174 persons—officers, men,
women, and children—moved b rallroad under his direc-
tions in England.. Speaking of ryalve y generally, he said—
" I should say that this mode of raja aays conveyance has en-
abled the army, comparatively to thew demands made upon
it, a very small one, to do the work of a very large one.
You send a battalion of 1,000
ter men from London to 1/Undies-
in nine hours ; that same battalion marching would
take seventeen days
;they and arrive at the
as when they started.'
end of nine hours, just asfresh, or nearly so,
that we are enabled well,
lovferailvaays, to ac-
complish within the spa„
of Y p
here have the fact
.ineehours what it tools us
seventeen days to effect he the tinmuleeof turnpike gates. Fur-
ther, we are told that we can transport as large a body of
troops as we could assemble in Scotland from Edinburgh to
Dover in twelve hours; whereas this was formerly not
to be done under tweutv-four days. Is not this
an enormous advantage? And does it not give us an I
immense control over the army we possess? I am really
ashamed to pursue this subject farther, and I cannot be- 1
lieve that there is an
intelligence—who placyesn'i
any confidence in all this talk we
~at least no man of sense and
have had lately about our defenceless condition.—(" Hear,
hear," ato nd "ou othat," from the Opposition benches.) I have
p su roved
ose in yfrom
the minds ere is no reason for all this alarm; but
I pp of eetne
t
protectionist some and
fears of such other sup
to ex a French invasion.—(Laughter.) I
commonreall sense have to b phis ardon of the French nation, and of the
e"lntrY for even alluding to such
of
t
dangers, though even do so but hypothetically. I myself
have uot the smallest idea that .any such exist more now
than there did tveAo' e gi ,
?71 ale 'ego, and you are 'as strong now as
you were than.
this
and Bill, at all events, first bring
—3' at
that if you insist on
forcing forward Militia
home your fleets, a
_let. the
been already laid out has
hasPenPle of the country ascer-
tain that threlymoney which
been prope expended, and t the French nation see
f peopleh off flland, ba the Execu-
tive Government 0 e country
that it is not the
imaginary
.ddearngrs. T that is thent on re-
. would beg Honourable
been heafking
--." moment the great pro-
serisetnintlgemen to consi _ o.t• one
gress that is being made in
ofthese days in wealth, manufac-
tures, and in all the works pose days
---44tY and art. I do not
believe that all we have
the tendency towards peace in this House about
I have is
anything more than clap-trap
and delusion. When
on both sides of the Housee express their belief in the won-
derful advance that Is d b mad ;
ea ---e •ia Most important inves-
they talk of the great • •
tigations—when discoes
of the electric telegraph, the t •
ex raord
eahvinterY meanstheonossess—
, communication that we p
all events, '' ' saY I believe them
' to be sincere; but I, at have a full conviction that
r at
the tendency of all these
war..ge rimprovementsi, is towards
peace, and not towards
his country, and'hatise I believe no
danger to exist to t
uire further defeCuae no proofs have
been given thflt we re
PI hope, at all ee, I resist the
gress of this B p
ill • an
be willing to withr
eventp that though the
pro-
Government may not aw their Bill, they
I am loofa
may not refuse the returns
ng for, which will
people of this country t '
enable the ,enJuslge how far these ad-
ailed fur.—(Loud cheers.) ditional defences are c
an I's-) The Hon.
vinff as
Gentleman concluded by me a amendment on the
• to Committee on the Militia B• ill,"That
motion for going in
better to consider to enable this House the the provisions of
a of the effective for
the Militia Bill, a retur
March last be laid 0 ce of the royal
navy on the 31st day of .
the following particulars,
the table of the
to contain
House ; such return Particulars, viz.:
armaments, number uf. creva
First. The names, arma 8 and officers
3 then employed he
of all her Majesty's ship ,
miliccitive service,
were employed
the stations ou which they
em
ployed on eacha the length
of time each vessel has beens station re..
team-vessels from l all-
spectively, distinguishing
by screws fromirX-vessels,
and also steam-vesselspropelledels,and stating the nominal
pro-
pelled by paddle-wheels,
vessel. Secondl horse-
mes of each ar- The same
power of the engines
ships, with the ports at which
they all reserve or advance which
and statement of the periods
they are now placed, a
to sea in which
'd to send them . . a fit state for
would be require
that the consideration of the Bill in
actual service. And
Committee be postponed until, production after the of such
retuin."
Mr. ANDERSON, in rising to second the amendment
ebe
did so from no factious feel-
begged to assure the Ho
ings or party motives. H.While
the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite
willing to
he was quite' support
them in any good measure
sat on the Treasury benches
measures which they might
il
propose,
while ho was equally prepared to oppose all their o
propoeitions. For this reason he had opposed the second
reading of this Bill, as he should have done that of the late
Government, as well as the amendment of the Noble Lord the
Member for Tiverton. The House, moreover, had resolved to
utmost
importance of ast
consider the Bill, and therefore .it w
.most
importance that they should have the largest possible ,
amount of information before them, to enable them to de-
cide on the requirements of the measure, Fo: that reason,reas'
'.he believed, that the returns moved for by his Hon. Friend
the Member for the West Riding were highly necessary for
Bill the proper consideration of the in Committee. He

Vessels of 200 to 500 tons 264 tonnage 86,416 tons.
„ 500 1,000 „ llB „ 78,•161 „
„ 1,000 2,000 34 „ 35,013 „
„ 2,000 3,000 „

425 vessels; 243,045 tons.
The vessels of four companies now employed in the Ocean
Mail Contract service, and which were under their con-
tracts available for warlike operations, were 70 vmsels,
amounting, in the aggregate, to 93,421 tons. and 32,500
horse power, being more than double the power of the
whole French steam navy in 1849, and more efficient
both for speed and capability of armament. After this
statement, he trusted the House would not be at all alarmed
at the idea of a bridge of French steamers being built
across the Channel. This country possessed such an over-
whelming steam power that not a single French soldier
would be able to leave port. There were steamers enough
to blockade all the French ports, and to prevent any vessels
from leaving them. He felt no hesitation in seconding the
amendment.

The question having been put,
Mr. STAFFORD said the Hon. Seconder of this motion
seemed to be animated by a somewhat different spirit from
that of the Hon. Gentleman who moved it. While the Hun.
Member for the West Riding expressed himself as dissatis-
fied with the amount of knowledge respecting the navy
which was then in possession of the-House, the Lion. Member
for the Orkneys, having got a return seemed to have got all
he wished for, and, except in the last sentence of his speech,
made not the slightest allusion to the motion before the
House.—(Laughter.) The House must, he thought, have
observed with astonishment the amount of nautical lore in
reference not only to the commercial marine, but to ships of
war, displayed by the Hon. Member for the West Riding.
Where the Hon. Member had studied the subject it was not
for him to say; but that a gentleman professing to be with-
out official information should be able to say that six ships
should be taken from one station, nine from another, one from
New Zealand, and that a certain number of ships should be
left in the Mediterranean, must certainly appear astonishing
to those who were not aware how much time the Hon. Gen-
tleman had given to the study. Now, was this the only as-
pect of the case? After the Hon Member and his party had
voted 44,000 men without a single comment, he now brought
before the House a motion whose sole and specific object was
delay. He was very much disappointed to find, as the Hon.
Gentleman proceeded, that he had no explanation to offer in
reference to this change of tactics.—(Hear, hear.) Now he
put it to the Hon. Gentleman, what effect these returns could
possibly have. Were they to suppose that the towns which
the Hon. Gentleman had-named would be influenced by
these returns; or that the returns would tend to diminish
the amount of support which this measure had received,
not merely from places which enlightenment had reached
—(Hear, and laughter)—but from places as important and
as much deserving of respect as those to which he had on
that occasion, as formerly, narrowed his views? - (Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Stafford) must here protest against the
system of explaining away the majorities of that House.
Those whom they (the Ministerial Members) represented
had as much right to have their opinions and the votes of
their representatives respected as the constituencies of the
district to which the Honourable Gentleman was in the
habit of referring.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber said that 6,500,000 L was spent in our naval defences.
It the Honourable Gentleman included the packet service
he ought also to include other items which had equally
little to do with defences. Did he mean to say that
all the scientific branches, which were as neeful to the com-
mercial marine as to the navy, and the freight of troops,
were referable to naval defences? Such representations were
a fair sample of the fairness and accuracy which charac-
terised the Hon. Gentleman's statement. As regarded the
precise number of vessels employed on any particular station,
the Hon. Gentleman might take an arbitrary figure, but no
Board of Admiralty could consider itself tied down to the
maintenance of a particular number of vessels in any one
month.—(Hear, hear.) It would be guided by the commu-
nications which it received; and that House would, he be-
lieved, never require confidential communications on mat-
ters of the highest interest to be divulged. Take the case
of the West coast of Africa. If one vessel or two vessels
more were found to be necessary for the end in view, would
the Hon. Gentleman say that they should be withheld?
The Commander-in-Chief on different stations often stated
that they required more ships.--(" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Bright); and in spite of that cheer, he must say that, in his
opinion, such persons, being on the spot, were far better
able to judge than the Honourable Gentleman. The Hon.
Member for the West Riding quoted the precedent
of 1793. The delay of the war at that period arose
from the want of preparation ; but let that precedent count
for what it might before, the Hon. Gentleman himself de-
stroyed its weight when he said in a subsequent part of his
speech that steam had placed us in a new position, and that
our forefathers would not have thought of undertaking what
steam would enable us to accomplish with ease.—(Hear,
hear.) That was the real state of the case. When the Hon.
Gentleman spoke of the facilities with which our own troops
might be moved across this island, he appeared entirely to
forget that similar facilities existed in a neighbouring coun-
try, that not only soldiers but crews of vessels might be ra-
pidly conveyed from the south, to man the twenty-six vessels
in the northern ports. The Hon. Gentleman himself could
not deny that it was owing to the increase of our fleets that
peace had been preserved, and that our preparations had
compelled our enemies—if we had any—to respect us
(Hear. hear.) The motion submitted to the House was
one which had never been granted by any Administration.
It had been repeatedly brought forward, but it had always
been held that to grant such a return would be highly
detrimental to the service. The statement which he ( Mr.
Stafford) made in reply to the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for the Orkneys, showed that the Government
did not wish to conceal any information which they
considered it right to give ; but this motion could
not be granted unless the House resolved to constitute
itself the Board of Admiralty. In matters of this nature
it was necessary to repose confidence in the responsible ad-
visers of the Crown. Some of the particulars included in
the motion had already been laid on the table; but the at-
tempt to obtain a return of " the names, armaments, number
of crews and officers of all her Majesty's ships employed
on active service," &c., must be met by the Government
with a positive denial. Its immediate effect would be to
give more information than the Government ever yet
granted; and as to the animus with which the Honourable
Gentleman brought it forward, the motion went to overturn
and reverse the whole system of naval management—a step
which he trusted the House was not prepared to take.
—(Hear, hear.) There might be defects in the Admiralty,
and he hoped they would be rectified ; but as it had
been managed, and he hoped would continue to be ma-
naged, it had protected the commerce of the country and
preserved our shores inviolate; and he asked the House not
to declare to the Commanders-in-Chief abroad that this
country had no confidence in them, or to show that it was
determined to take the executive into its own hands, by
demanding information which the responsible servants of her
Majesty 'did not consider it consistent with their duty to
grant.—(Cheers.)
Mr. CORRY concurred with the Hon. Member for the
fig
hhi
ten foo
wan ts he
re-
West Riding that, in discussing the question of our nationalo
defences, it was not possible to separate the military frond
the naval services; but he also concurred with the
_no..or.
Gentlemen the Secretary for the Admiralty, that tshe t
t Riding
mation asked for by the Hon. Member for the'
ought not to be given by the Admiralty. If .that
tion were given, it would throw but very
subject, and the country would not be at
Nor did he thinkthat
through it, unless it were accompanied
e
naval force that might be opposed to it. Nor
the production
the consideration ought to be proffered for
naval forces, be.
of any information on the subject of our littlell
the stations of
tion of the names, the armaments, an
cause the official Navy List contained
the ships in commission.—
trouble to compare the French and then
the House in pea-
and he thought he should (bile eaabrl'ehtenar) subject, with which
oglieshhasdatvaykeLnitshtse,
session of sufficient information on the nticeship to the
he was necessarily
incomparably greater than those
forces of this country were incom
Paalthough our navy was
of France—(Hear, hear)—but
familiar from hie aPpre
Admiralty. The House need not
wbehiienhforgmaevde thgar teattheadnvaavna-1
greater, there were circumaten
oi rn
sri reserved
do
taxes to the French navy.
geographical position of France, the Thoseeth distrib circumstancesutionof were
o tfleetsh the
adopted in France, by
of the two countries and the 8)
woferethce
dsaYffile.aieetnutrnins
feofrmtha
while
gto man the ships for service.—
difficulties in finding
wshhipicshotfhewyaorb, obtained mnenEfsorianthde Ntvhheorlee
.a'sffaast
hffooerr bet foreign
'Win it was
lna
thoes,eotoffotrh
et the
FrenchE ng-
drons in the Mediterranean, but
0(
fH
geographicale service.—
(Hear.) r.) Wit h respectpo position,
t,om fehne first
knownof these
that advantages,
both
eono tri thates
retained their largest stifle home,
while_
ltihsahtistewa
immediate
being required for •
t would take days to send
squadron in
dispatch from. Paris to Toulon would
not require so many malts. If the French G overnment
service, a telegraphic
orders from London to Frenchte station.rran ela navy
T 1
sage to ou on, there was no reason
.sent a telegraphic message to Toulon, there was no reason
why the French fleet sho
should not steam to Brest in a fort-
why the French hours as
a most important com-
ia the Mediterranean,
but the steam
munication to maintain
the Mediterranean was four times as
navy of France in
as that of England, so that a considerable port
night. It was trueflee the French had .
great ion
might be spared. In another respect, Toulon might contri-

4 Aes 2

I di
of tr.

.
- - ------Te"a --a-a-- bute to the naval 'twee suddenly, available.: ' There were at , and - especial suspiciou of ale present 'ruler of that country.
Toulon
_seven ships of the line fully manned by 6,006 •men. Now, he did not het that ; bUt, fbr the .Sake of argu-
supporters of this
It woulq be the height of rashness to send those crews round I ment he would' • admit thet
y sea, -but they might be conveyed overthatt complete.' By _Bill did believe it. Well, where we! e the grounds
sending their ms
overland, the whole of the French navy : fi.r. it 7 It, snould be remembered
.that there was
in reserve inieht lie airectea against our shores. Bat the I elwaye 'a party in this country; in fehoto or,/ a panic_ any
matiallhihniee
,was in the difference of the distribution or , sett or a panic—and that a cry of auorpiettiasagnaliwnesyt._,Frreaandcp the French navy as coinpared with that. of England. 1 and for consequent military expenditure,"
iet4e-di
This country had- meet important colonial 'acrd mercantile They should remember that Sir T., Ii seinga stiuguished
interests to protect, while ehose of France were compare- 1 military 'officer, insisted in his evidence before the Come
mittee that the Preach had a burning desire to come to this
tively se all. 1 The consequence was; that, the greater part
otthe navy ofFranee was on the shores of France. at the, country to revenge Waterloo, and he, quotedate one of his
aohainand of her Gbvernment, while the greater part of 'the authorities the Bishop 'of Madagascar.-.-(Hear, hear, and
English navy was out of reach. and-Was unable to give us a laugh.) But had thee people of France shown a single
any asaistance inecase of attack neon-our ehoreo. - (Hear, , symptom that they were ansloas to piele a•cluarrel.veith this
hear.) On the Ist
,of January, 1851, the distribution of hcoun•ry? Neither in the timeof Louis Philippe, nor under
the naval fence' of the. two countries was as follows : I the Provisional Government of Lamareinee nor under the
England had 138 sea-gning blips in cenernission,exclusive of Republic arid National Assembly, nor under the President,
-packnta with 33,000 men Afloat. The Freach had 1371ehips ' haa. the people of Franceezbibited the slightest hostility to
and 25,000 men. The English ships upon toren!). stations lnegland. If such a feeling bad existed, however, surely
were 108. with 21,000 men; while the French had, iecled. ; under all those changes it would have been manifested._
ing the Levant, only 57 ships abroad, with 7,000 • men. 1 (Hear, hear.) It had not , been manifested, and he con-
England had •at home, . including the Lisbon squadron, Mended, therefore, that as far as the •people of Franc* were
ordered home; 30.shiesewitii 12,000 m'r, if their. comple- I concerned, there was not one shedow. ;of ground for this
mente were . full white. the French had at home, including Bill.—(llear, hear.) Look at the conduct .of our press. He
tee Toulon divieforia7Q ships, with 18,000 men. The real did not wish the English press to shut its mouth !when any-
criterien was he, ameuat of actual force, and the proportion thing was enacted in foreign nations which it believed to
wa, as 33 10 25 between: England and Francee but the pro-' be contrary to freedom; but our press bad for two months
portion abroad was as 21 to 7, while in the force at home, it ',Maintained an incessant.daily fire of accusations against the
was as 12 to 18. so that while . the tetal force of Erialana , miter, and too often against the people of France. ' The
was one quarter more than that onfalaance, we bad'abread t Frehch press during all that time, though under the control
three times as great a force, but only Swo.thirds as great a of ,the Presideat, . had never retaliated, or attempted to
force at home.—(Hear, hear.) The House would obscene create iii the minde 'of' the French. people a feeling ants-
that, with -less theft' double the number of ships abroad, gonistic teethe people' of this country. He would admit, for
England sent three tines the number of
seamen to foreign ' the sake of argument. that the French President had shown
stations. This arose' from our sending the greater pert of greed of power, that he was cool, reseryed, calculating, and
our large ships, sailing. and stem-vessels;-to foreign stations,, unscrupulous; but it must be remembered that he was ap-
while the French retained the whole of their larger ships and- proved by the majority of tlii, French population; and, if
steamers for the home station. The French had.n et a sinle . there were our reason morn than another why he was so, it
ship of the line, nor a single steam.frigatt, nor even' a first- . was.because he lest not plunged them into war, He ad-
class steam corvette abroad. The largest steamev t 1 which united thee, they.did not like tue theory of • his government,
France had upon a foreign station was the
corvettes, of•which she had only six abroa.l. Enland',
smalleessiecl^ssof but if the Vehicli people, disagreeing in that, yet supported
on litm 'because he had given them a. penenacente or temporary
the contraryomaintainad the greater part'of her most poWer i repo.3,, the House Might depend upon it that they would not
ful steam-frigates and steam-corvetteeabioade ' France had ' rest .;
single instant it he should manifest the slightest inten-
teo steam line-Of-battle Shies, 11 steam-frigates, and 1t tion of sending 'a piratical or marauding expedition against
corvettes, making 32 in commission, of which only sin cor- this country. There were no preparations made in France. No-
eettes were abroad. England had three steam line-of- ,body liedatli, owe that any more ships had bee
Decembernaddeei to
last.th
bet Lie ships, 12 frigates, and 28 corvettes in commission, French navy or troops to the French armysince
of which only .14 were at 'home, add 29 abroad. • Of the lat- He was surprised that among the extraordinary . fallacies
ter there were one of 800 hotse-power, one of 659, four from which had been stated in the House upon this question, no
500 to GOO, seven frOM 40 to 500, five from 303 to 400, one had ventured to state that Louis Napoleon had done
eleven front 200 to 300 horse-power. Excluding packets, what his renowned uncle was 'said' to have 'done when be
•England'had in 'comMission '64 - steamer's of 18,900 horse- propcised to invade England, viz., that he had put up
power, while France had 77 stearners-Of 17,500 horse-power. finger-posts upon all the roads converging towards Boulogne
Of steamers ready for commission, England had eel' of 10,500 marked " The way to London," with a hand pointing
horse-power, while France had 30 steamers of 82,000 across the Channel. A story of this kind would have
horse-power. The total number of _ships in commission and created a panic much more successfully than some things
ready was, in England, 95. with 29,4(10 horse-power; and which had, been stated with that object. He recommended
in France, 107, with 25,700 horse-power. Bat England had Hon. and Gallant Members to try it the next time they
abroad 47 steamers of 13,300 horse-power, while France wished to create a panic.—(Laughter.) liter.) There were two
had only 21 steamers of 3,000 horse-power. . England suppositions on. which the House was invited to proceed
had at home, including the Lisbon squadron, 17 of with this measure. , The first was that there would be a de-
-5,631 horse-power; while France had no less than 56 of claration of war and then an invasion; and the second was
14,403 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) The merchant steam that there would be a piratical and marauding expedition
navy had been spoken of as useful for' the defence of the undertaken in the night. Now, if there was a declaration
country, 'but when war `broke out, if the Government' of war nobody had attempted to deny that, according to the
took a North American, or West Indian, or alatiterra- usages of civilized nations—if nations that went .to war de-
nean steamer, how. could a communication be kept up served to be called civilized.—(Hear, hear)—there must be
between England and her colonies?—(Hear, hear.)' The negotiation and delay to ouch an extent as to allow time
French also, under their maritime system, could man their for some of that immeasurable force which the lion. Mem-
navy
_with greater facility than we could .man ears, and ber for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) had spoken of being brought
had a large reserve of sailors, well trained, available to be into the Channel to defend our shores.--(Hear, hear.) The
called upon at any time to serve in the navy. By the last Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had spoken of 50,000
French register,' after deducting 'the men in the navy in men landing in one night. [An Hon. Member-60,000.]
the merchant service, there were 45,000 liable to be re- Well, 60,000; the Noble Lord was not particular to a 10000 ;
quired of whom about one=half had already served a term of but he (Mr. Bright) believed that 60,000 were just as likely
tour rears; bat we, with e registry of 210;000 seamen, found as 50,000, and 70,000 just as likely as 60,000. But what
it difficult to raise 30,000 men, anti all tintraiiied; whereas'; hl'ould Louis Napoleon gain by adopting that course ?—for
the French had_ enough trained to man the whole reserve. • men did not act without motives. He would ask the soldiers
Under these circumstances it was obvious that we ought not in that House to say whether they thought that the French
to trust our national defence exclusively to our navy, and army were likely to see any glory—he was not saying in a
therefore he was anxious to support this Bill. As to our war with England, but in a piratical expedition against this
land force, his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Wilts had country? Did they believe that Louis Napoleon would be
the other night demolished its supposed efficiency; for it safe in the French Government one single month after he
turned out, that instead of having an army of 109.000, or took the step which some Members of that House assumed
even 69,000, we had only somewhere about 20,000; and that he was likely to take? Did they not think that Russia,
when Hon. Gentlemen talked of the military defence of our' Austria, Prussia, would league themselves against such an
shores, and our mercantile marine, they should recollect it attempt on the part of the Government of France ?—for,
was impossible for merchant steamers, our dockyard batta- was it not worth more to the settled Governments of Europe
lions, or our Royal Marines, to be in two places at once. that the ancient axed venerable monarchy and the settled in-
The dockyard men were very valuable for the local defence stitations of England should be maintained, rather than that
of our dockyards; but they could not be removed from the a firebrand, such as Honourable Members wished to make
dockyard to the field—(Hear, hear)--and it was the same out the President to be, should rule over the French
with the coast-guard. They would he required for the re- nation?—(Hear, hear.) If, then, there was no other motive
venue purposes, and, therefore, the steamers could not be the motive of self-preservation alone would prevent Louis
manned withthene. Thellon.MemberforWestminster claimed Napoleon from taking such a step against the people and
the marines as an auxiliary to the army; but if a war took Government of this country. But,-
.to return to the state-
place, so far from the marines going to 'increase the army ' ment of the Noble Lord the Member Tor Tiverton, with re-
we should have 3,000 less, because they would be required spect to the probability of 60,000 men landing in one night,
for our ships. For these reasons he thought we ought to he bed to say that it was an incredible statement for a
have a Militia Bill, and he preferred that mode, because if
statesman of his experience to make. But, assuming that
the regular army were increased, after two or three years -this invading force were to escape our fleet, and that our
passed over it would be reduced; and, secondly, because, troops were dispersed and unable to meet them, how did the
although militiamen might not, in the first instance,
be fie Rrght Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home
to be trusted in the field, they would take off a great
deal of Department expect to be able to get the militia to meet
garrison duty from the regular troops, .and leave a larger them? Why, with the help of the electric telegraph he
,number, therefore, for actual service. He trusted, however, would be able to get the dispersed soldiers to the coast before
that if this increase of fetes were agreed to, the Govern- those agricultural labourers, weavers, and mechanics had
ment would not relax in their regard for naval defences, got on their clothes.—(Laughter.) In his opinion, no case
which must be considered as the most important. Upon whatever had been-made out in favour of the present Bill.
that part ,of the question he, to a certain' extent, agreed He protested against the inconsistency of the House. In
with the Hon. Member for the West Riding. He thought a his boyhood he remembered that the cry was for reliance upon
'great addition might be made to our home squadron, " the wooden wails of England," and poets made songs read
net so much by reducing the number of ships on foreign odes of all kinds on the subject, such as—
'stations as by reducing the force on those stations.—( Hear.) " Britannia needs no bulwarks,
. .
On some stations steamers of 200-horse power would do as '' . No towers along the steep ;
well as those of 800—(Hear)—for it had'happened that in all Her march is o'er mountain wave,
our operations since steam was introduced into the navy all Her home is on the deep."
the work had been done by small steamers.—(Rear, hear.) But now the wooden walls as well as the military ser-
It was a in China; Parana, Burmah, and the other day at vice were forgotten'for the moment for the blundering, miser-
Lagos. He thought 'we ought to maintain a large 'squadron able, undisciplined horde which was proposed to be brought
en the home station, and that .it was a strange arrangement together by this Militia Bill.— (Hear.) The Hon. and Gal-
that British interests in all parts of the world should be pro- (ant Member for Chippenham had stated that the army had
tected, and those at home neglected. He hoped, therefore, been reduced since 1848. Well, that very fact ought to be
the Government would maintain on the home station a re- a warning both to that Hon. Gentleman and the Govern-
spectable squadron. As to the question of national defence, meat, because the military expenditure at that time was
none could be more important. In that respect he was a corn- such—amounting as it did to 17,000,0001., 18,000,000/., or
plete Protectionist, and he trusted the Government would not 19,000,000/. a year, that the people were positively alarmed
be deterred by any consideration from adopting such measures and horrified at the course which the Government were pur-
as they might think necessary to secure the defence of our suing, and insisted uf on a reduction ; and he warned the
shores. present Government that if they either passed the present
Mr. CARTER (who, it will be observed, took the oaths Militia Bill, or added to the army without making Out a
and his seat in the early part of the evening) said, 'he should better case than they had yet been able to do, they too
not have so soon addressed the House had it not been that would ere long be obliged to yield to the popular demand
the session was likely to be so short that he might not have for military retrenchment.—( Hear, hear.) His opinion was,
many chances of speaking.—(Laughter.)' It seemedato him that if there was anything like a real, thorough, imminent
that the speeches of the two Hon. Gentlemen who had spoken danger in the case, there was not a soldier, or a policeman,
were no answers to the motion for returns of ournaval forces; or a man in any way counected with the military service in
and, indeed, went rather to support it, for they went to show the kingdom who might not be made available for the pur-
that tbe-greater part of our naval forces were abroad,.and the poses of
.defence, for he was sure that in such an event any
obvious inference was that they ought to be brought home. county, city, borougb, parish, or ham_ letwould secure its
He certainly did not think the mere fact of the Hon. Memberember own peace, and leave the military and police to be placed
for the West Riding being a member of the Peace Society a at the bands of Goverurneut for the general defence.—
bar to his forming a just estimate of the position of our mai- (fuer., tear.) But the fact was that the present was no-
tary establishments.' In conclusion, the Hon.' slembes said thing more nor less thana mere panic, than which there
he rejoiced that up ,n this, the first occasion of addressing the was nothing, 'ln his opinion, more adverse to genuine pa-
House, he was enabled to lift up his voice in favour of peace, triotism and true statesmanship. adverse
a political
and in deprecation of that expensive system of armaments
panic,was got up
expenditure, werew
purposeeccle
si a
so tt• i
et
ar al dpi na gn i
cupon d it.
t r
aLdaesdt
for
.tile
which had so long oppressed the people of this country.
on
the bishops got up au
Captain BOLDERO said that the present motion pre-
tended one thing, but really meant another.—(Hear, hear.) always- anxious to increase the military
upon it, and this year the military seer:pie:a,tu which was
It was part of the political creed of the Hon. Member (Mr.
trading upon a militaryiPs it had bee,n said that in theenie.—(Hear, hear.) So long
Cobden) to oppose all estimates, more particularly those ago as the time of
,
'fac tu
military science and the military relating to the military defences of the country—(Hear, course of a long peace
na to fall into neglect,
pro-
hear)—and
whatever inizht be the nature of the Militia fessioa were apt to be .
forgotten
a , . . . , and
tide disturbance and alarm
Bill, that Honourable Member would be found voting against it was to prevent . this that all
order that more and more money
it. That part of the 'motion which asked for information as had -been created, and in
expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)
to the present state of our defences was wholly -superfluous. might be voted. for military"
take upon himself to say that
The Navy List actually supplied all the information that He: (Mr. Bright) would_ember for
Tiverton was the father
could be desired: Then, what was the real object of the eno- the Noble Lord the al
The Noble Lord was in favour of a Militia
tion? Delay. Even had the Government supplied the of this Bill.
Hear, hear.) In truth, it was that
required statistics, this motion would have been pressed by Bill in 18 tB.—( i .
6 y and the Noble Lord did not deny
Hon. Gentlemen, who, whilst they clamoured for a dissolu- Noble Lord's
hobby,
t'll'at, in the exercise of li. tion, lost no Opportunity of obstructing public business. it. Ile presumedLord the Member for Is great influence
—(Hear,_ hear.) Such ' factions conduct, beethouglit, came over the Noble Landon he had dragged
Lord into his views of the question.; but what
with a peculiarly bad grace front- the Manchester school.— that Noble
Lord afraid of ? He
(Hear, hear.) he Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
was the Noble
an invasion of 50,000 could hardly be serious
Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson) had, the other night,'attempted in anticin
• atingconduct in Decembermen from a ruler whose
to fix a charge, of inconsistency on the Noble Lord the extraordinaryt last he had thought it
ud. Ile (Mr. B • Member for London, inasmuch as that., in 1848, •he advo- right toatplp
fealloble Lord did right) was not sure that in his
cited an addition to our standing army, and he deprecated a dispatchf Euro e would 1, , not say that he thought the
similar proceeding in 1852. But in 184 e we had 15,000 more Pf
IN ace'leon tool!) upon this a made safer by the course Louis
rank and file 'than in the beginning of 1852.
lle
( --ptnin
wouldaP say at once that _oc,casion.—(Hear, hear.) But he
Boldero) should prefer an addition to the army to having
'h h' questions the Noble Lord was no authority
suggested wit lin on of this
recourse to the militia, and would adopt the plan nature.— (A laugh.) He did
for not pretend to set his 'by the; Honourable and Gallant Officer the Member
It had house probably opinion againit the Noble Lord's. The
Windsor (General Reid) for recruiting in advance.. thought the Noble Lord a much better
military pre- authority that he (M 'B •
been contended that France was making
ne
that the Ministerial benches,) a right) was.—(Cheers ' from the
-parations. They had recently learned,i
however,the Chasseurs de Bard to a • militia The views of the Noble Lord with re-
French 'Government were augmenting
a local corps of political ache were perfectly corM4terit - • with his
Vincennes by 7,000 men, and were
to the militia force he would liberateriles* The establishment ~ bf • a militia
20,000 men in Algeria. With regard
five years service to
77 The creed o' " thenY
. soldiers from foreign service.
' the term of the No '
bleeLotd, so far as he (Mr. Bright).
thought that by limiting
would accrue. A bountyof 6/. or •... had observed '
three au advantage 'od would yield about Is. a week, . versa( , had Always been in favour of uni-
spread over the latter period i
ra
boon by the rural population.;diplomacy and incessant interference with other
countries.he
and thisvrould be felt
h ter School that thera was no He wished always to have the power, as
He agreed with the e Mencees from the
invasion.—(Hear, Man- always seemed to have the
disposition, of cajolinga or bully-
immediate cause of fear of
that existed was ' founded ins somebody or some foreign country.—(Laughter.) The
chester party.) The apprehensionrance
at this moment. And what •Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, who
on the political state of? F
An unmitigated despotism, backed was his great champion two years ago, on one - occasion
was the state of France
But there was no daner called . the Noble 'Lord '." a lucifer match."—ne (Mr.
Louis
an army of hirelings.
ur shores. If he did, however,e Bright) presumed that this great military force was required
Louis Napoleon invading ¢o
_,
break-
succeed.— he would assuredly as an extinguisher in case of any case of incendiarism
and we. were only_ true to ourselves, not ;
.1) out. I b thought the country
succeed.—(Plear, hear. ,g, —( tenewed laughter.), But e .
Mr. BRIGHT said, the Secretary to the had 'already paid enough for some of. the projects of the
Admiralty had Noble Lord with regard to Africa, Brazil, and elsewhere.—
at all
taken upon himself to l!Stor_e•,)revents to sneer at the (Cries of "Di 'de ' ) The efforts of the Noble Lord to do so
Hon. Member for the W.est_ Riding, touching the accurate much for vi
. ''abroad, while he did so little for it at
. bad obtained about naval affairs.—(gem., freedom
information ho a--rs--(Hear.) home, reminded him of one of the characters in the new
the Admiralty
As the Secretary to . y had only been in office six work of Mr. Dickens, so much so, that he felt disposed to
e been previousl k
weeks, never Bainyine _ . s yknown to- be very pro- call him the Mrs. lellaby of etetesmen'—(Laughter.) Be
d naval aMurs—(A
foundly. e... laugh)—he scarcely oppo adno case of urgent necessity had
seemed the Bill, because
in a position to assail the Member for the West Rid_-'' - - a
a een a nee t e
at all events, had for been made out ano pro()
ing, who, three years been a close at- fl ' ofthiscountry were insufficient. Military
tendant upon the Committee of that House which had eets and troops
it a special business thoroughly to investigate and
made men differed in everything with respeet.to this \Bill except
the subject.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman master that the Government .
plan would be useless for defence. lie'
who had wished the House to bear in mind that every -argument
just spoken said that the object of this motion was but he contended that it was to place before th e
s delay; which had been used in favour of the present Bill, or for an
House e • increase forces, would be just as powerful next session
ing facts with regard to-the means of defence zest- of our . _ . .
for po
were
ing them plainly before them, the House would ,so that, hay- in favour of an additional increase, what they glee
impression
position to discuss the propriety of any further
be in a better missing was not so much a question of fact as of
___,.
for military purposes. He maintained expenditure and sentiment.—(Cries of "Divide I") -He shouldi not
that it Wasofthe trouble the House by entering into the details of the Co-
to
most important propositions that could one
only
the House, for it involved Bill—( Hear hear because he objected not ,
tiy d be submitted vernment ,
2,, enbsieett.
stance, that it was intended nearl ' t s striking circum- to the present. Bill, but to any increase of force, •!r.e;eltimety
double the num. tion of ,that proposed, there being no 45fatelolithe Home
her of persons who were connectedywiteh
standing that the preamble of the 42d of
arms, and notwith- made out. .
There was one thing he won't' • to, that
he could accredit . ,
th_
George 111. set Secretary, for it was an arguent
forth that a military force under the ' s scarce!who had been connected intli /4 command of officers th.ere. wa y any one
possessing landed property within Great • haracter.—(" 0140_ i
Britain was essen- militia 50years ago but was ruined in c
__ woo had ex. 7
tial to the Constitution, he took the 11,
liberty of t t. sa mg that
old enough to
military establishments beyond what plained the matter to him, for be was not _ .
t so far as weir
absolutely necessary werecould be shown to be
believed the
en connected
contrary to the Constitution and remember it himself, but he
industrious
to the spirit of representative • •avocations concerned, the m
..
(Oh .
institutions —(Hear, hear.)
the service, were injin
He maintained that the me • with the militia, on retiring from
acts in life.—oh,
asare ,of the Government was hostile to the industry of the ' •character, morals, and in their PresP- e
e was
d . country, and injurious to free-
mil, and that there was no interest which would not be and cries of " No.") When h • a subject of this nation on prejudiced by the establishment of a militia unless it could representatives of a Christian show that further ex-
be proved to be absolutely necessary for the safetyof the ture—When he was endeavouring
ients
was unnecessary, h
country.. He! would discuss this
only
penditure for warlike arrn
his n
arguments would be fairlye
upon the principles of expedienc question, . however,
y_ and policy. They were s ,
hould at least, expect that,
hear.) lhe Honourable and Learned
asked to spend. 350,000/. more. The 15,000,000/. already considered —(Hear,
Sheffield on a former occasion took on
voted left ne in a most insecure andperilous osition, but Member for be called the peace art
p y—(Hear,
add this 350,000/, and we • h
P.
pEldhmto sneer at what
he appeared
mg t rest satisfied that +ng an i
a e received, as to court eh (Hear,
from
was sate from invasion.—(A laugh.) -.350,000/. was the hear)— ama he of the House. But the a '
interest upon a principal sum of 12,000,0001., that the opposite stile
so
sneers , p
the eace party w IdPe peace
party could
having already invested 1,200,000,000/. of the property of _stand thoseparty—and if they endeavoured
ou last longer than
the country, this 12,000,000/. was to be added to make us ' the wt:rtesManship and into legislation s to introduce
into s
perfectly safe. Before they could ask for this money they litv(Laughter)—they could afford to princiP 7. It •
were bound to show him either that there was some new nwrg's - lamentable thing that, though be
Sneered
a had
danger, or that there had been discovered some insecurity was
wee since those sculptured marbles- 3,000 years _
were first worked
of which Parliament had been hitherto ignorant. If there P
which so many had •
the - seen in the British Museum, yet at
were a new - danger, where was it? The Noble Lord
that very moment, after 1,800 years of Christianity, they
Member for London had himself dwelt our peaceful rela- on ere that night -
tiona, with foreign countries, and the Noble Member for w . ..engaged,and not reluctantly on the part of
for the many, in precisely the same sort proceedings
of described 011
Tiverton, and the Right lion. Secretary of State
those marbles, where horses
• n the samewere pictured armed men, _ ,
Hoine Department, had been equally emphatic o
___ e Hoe. chariots, Processions, battles, and captains-4Langhter)—
subject. Where, then, .was the new
"repudiateddenger?TD
all tnet, and no doubt -there were ' -,as there were
and Learned 'Member for Sheffield had
didnot then, who blessed priests too
men really offered
the arms of the Assyrians, and
and intimated that those distinguished .
fact disguise—that thethanksgivings to the gods for slaughter. He believed the
mean what they said—that it was a di
. WU
was, that they had great fears of an attack from France Bill not to be One which gentlemen connected with the Go-