The Sun.
London, England, 1864-01-28 00:00:00

SPEECH OF M. TRIERS ON MEXICO.

It being known that M. Thiers was to speak on
Tuesday on the Mexican question, all the tribunes
were filled long before the debate began. Prince
Napoleon and the Princess Clothilde were in the
seats reserved for the imperial family. Among the
senators present was Marshal Forey, the late com-

M_ Thiera
mender chief of the expealtio.

was about to criticise. The first lawyer of France,

Proeureur-General Duping eat by the bide of Mar

E. hal Forey,

M, Thijra Baia that he would not discuss this or
that amendment, but treat of the question of Mexico
gcneially. Having a great deal to say on this im-
portant subject he had been antions to speal early
in the debate, Lest at a later moment the attention
of the chamber should be exhausted. He was not

without hope that after hearing him they would
forgive him for having thus pressed himself upon
their notice. As to the different amendments of

which they had the choice, he would prefer that
one which might be thought to lay the truth at the
foot of the throne in the moat deferential find re-

speotful way. If they had only to pass judgmen
_ _

upon facts gone by, he would be very happy to
imitate the conduct of those merchants who write
off unlucky affairs to profit and loss in order that
they might think no more about thetti. bdt Men.

chants only acted thus with regard to affairs which
involved no further sacrifices. Unfortunately this
could not be said of Mexico. They had heard
that the expedition cost twelve millions of francs
per month, and months rolled sway very rapidly.
They were operating in a country 3,000 leagues
off, and which required a voyage of 15
days to reach. They had in that country
40,000 soldiers and 8,000 sailors; and what
was the object of that great and costly force?
They were informed that in a very few days the
prince destined to reign over Mexico would pass
through Saris to embark for Vera Cruz. They had
therefore undertaken this distant expedition for the
purpose of founding a great empire in the new world.
He had perhaps been brought up in narrow ideas,
but he must confess that such an enterprise in the
present state of the world, without any useful pur-
pose, that he could see, utterly confounded his res.-
son. After a passing observation engaging the
chamber to imitate the example of England, which
patiently suffers every subject whatever to be dis-
cussed, he said he proposed to inquire by what series
of ideas France had been led from the first act of
protection of its citizens established in Mexico to
that most considerable enterprise of founding a
monarchy in that country. What connexion was
there between the two things ? Was there any
reasonable hope of success; and if perchance they
did succeed, what good would they get by it ? M.
Thiers then described the great difference between
North and South America in respect of relations
with Europe. In theNorth,Europe found an immense
trade, and, in general, perfect security, though of
late, owing to the civil war and democratic rough-
ness, there might have been some slight ground for
complaint. But in South America, with the excep-
tion of the Brazils, there was nothing but anarchy.
When the southern populations of America separated
from the European countries which had colonised
them and held them in subjection, they, like the
North, proclaimed. republican government. But
the inhabitants of South America were turbulent
and idle, and their republics did not succeed. These
the and of
highways continual
states were always in difficulties, ever borrowing
agitation,a n d
neve never
the paytionwgri8, In
villages,consequence
were insecure. Robbery was frequent and Miir.--
not uncommon. The pole
...m was good for notb;^
and justice a;vectic. rp, w.._
g,
whir " - aile custom with these states
. Lney broke treaties had been hitherto to
follow the English system, viz., to punish them
severely when they could be got at by sea, but
otherwise to wink a good deal at their delinquen-
cies. It might perhaps be said that such a mode of
dealing with them was not very haughty, but na-
tional honour itself must brook a check in the face
of physical impossibilities. As illustrations of hie
. meaning M. Thiers cited the case of some Riff out-
rages which Prussia thought it not expedient to
avenge by an expedition ; of Bonpland (the compa-
nion and friend of Humboldt), who was made pri •
soner in Paraguay by the dictator Francia ; and
also an affair at La Plata, where French citizens
had been tortured by that abominable little tyrant
Roses. 'Well, Fren el ships h. sal gone to Buenos
Ayres and Monte. Video and' demanded severe

-..,-3

repression, bat, not being able to obtain it they put
up, by way of satisfaction, with a treaty which was
not so advantageous as might have been wished.
Later, an insult in Mexico had been puhished by a
vigorous coup de main by Admiral Baudin. Bat as
for equit able and discriminating repression in these
countries it could only be obtained by a good under-
standing with the governments. M. IThiers then
explained the present situation in Mesilo, observing
that the country was divided into two kreat parties
—the Conservatives, called by their, adversaries
clericals and reactionists ; and the Liberals, called
by their adversaries anarchists and revolutionists.
In the Conservative party there were-many great
families of the old regime who wished to make
Mexico a second Brazils, The Brazils instead of
going for a republic had stopped at constitutional
monarchy—a word not in favour, but he could
not help speaking his own language. Under
the constitutional monarchy—(some murmurs)—
Brazil had found order, liberty, and growing
prosperity. But to procure similar beatitudes
for Mexico was a work of difficulty. In the first
place, they had had to look out for a prince. Had
analogies been followed, Spain would have been
asked to furnish one ; but recollections of the war of
independence had left Mexico a great repugnance
to the Spaniards. Then a somewhat arbitrary, not
to say fantastic choice of a candidate had been made.
They had fixed upon a prince who had certainly no
partisans in the country. The Conservative
party had for its allies a Catholic eldgy, which was
wanting in the virtues and intelligence of the clergy
in Europe. That clergy had been very wealthy,
and was mixed up in all the political troubles of the
country. Its property had been confiscated, and
now its great object was to get it back. M. Theirs
then came to the struggle between Miramon and
Juarez. The first was a courageous but not very wise
young man. The second was an Indian by b.rth, a lawyer
by profession, and, though now the enemy of France, it was
only just to say that his countrymen did not look upon
him as a dishonest man. He had shown remarkable
strength of character. Miramon was installed in Mexico,
and at the head of the public force, while Juarez was at
Vera Cruz without a piastre ; and yet by patience and per-
severance he succeeded in the course of e few months in
making his entry into Mexico, and Miramoa took to flight.
Juarez founded a moderate Government aid showed great
firmness in checking his Congress, in which the most
radical opinions prevailed. When the treaty with M. de
Saligny, the French minister, was broken, the right and
prudent thing to have done would have oeen to take pos-
session of Tampico and Vera Cruz, and receive the cus-
toms duties at these'ports until the debt hed been liquidated,
That was the English system in such cases. Not a very
brilliant one, indeed ; not one by which much glory could
be acquired, but eafe and effectual. After referring to the
deceptive reports spread by the clerica' party in Europe
that the Mexican people were so tired o. Juarez's govern-
ment that they would rise as one man ea the first appear-
ance of an invading flag, and acclaim tee European prince
proposed to them, M. Thiers reviewed the original negotia-
tions with London and Madrid, shoving that England
steadily declined to interfere in any wry whatever with the
internal government of the country—and that Spain, while
prompting France to establish a monarchy, wanted to set
up a Spanish prince, which France would not consent to.
The zeal of Spain in the affair being thus cooled, she con-
sented—but not, as he (M. Thiers) thought, without an
arrQre pensde---to the English convention of Oct. 31, 1861.
That convention was in reality but a negation, for England
only intended to take possession of Vera Cruz and Tampico.
Spain wanted to found a monarchy for the benefit of a
Spanish prince ; France had in her mind a monarchy with
an Austrian sovereign. Under such circumstances the
treaty, though in form obligatory, could only in point of
fact be negative, The Spaniards were the first to set out on
the expedition. They sailed frets Havannab, and arrived
at Vera Cruz on Dec. 1. General Prim, their commander,
and who had been accepted by France as generalissimo of
the expedition, was a brilliant soldier, but full of Castilian
pride. He closely observed the state of the country, and
soon found that Europe had been altogether deceived when
it fancied that the monarchical party would rise as soon as
the European troops landed. About three weektelater the
French force, under the cum+ sand of an able man, Admiral
Jurien de la Graviere, It „ 's.reti with Gen.
Prim that it was Trident to wait for to 't, ised demon-
etes trio- waited and waited in vbrn ; no monar-
chial znevernentestook place. The forces, could not, vever,
remain much longer at Vera Cruz,disease making greet havoc
attiong amid, The Spaniards had 2,000 sick. Hoar many
French were sick had neVet been stated, but the number
was known to be large. The English force was only 700
strong, and of that number 15J were in hospital, The three
commanders, French, Spanish, and English, agreed that it
was impossible to tetnain any longer in Vera Cruz. They
marched a few leagues into the Interior of the country,
where the troops found themselvesa little betters and then,
as it was felt necessary to do something, they issued a pro-
clamation to the Mexicans, telling them that they had not
come to conquer or revolutionise their country, but merely
to claim pecuniary indemnities due to French, Spanish, and
English subjects, The form of an uliimatum Was given to
this proclamation, and etherefere exact sums were stated.
England claimed 85 millions of francs, Spain 40 millions,
France 60 Millions, and 20 millions were demanded on behalf
of some other nations. The total, amountingto 200 millions,
seemed rather high in regard to the capabilities of the
Mexican btidget, but when, in addition, the Jecker bonds,
amounting to 75 millions, were brought forward, the Mexi-
can Government was startled and hesitated to pay. He
would only say of the Jeoker bonds that they had a very
bad reputation, However, it was agreed that the question
should be rsferred to the three European Governments.
But meanwhile three officere were despatched to the city of
Mexico with an ultimatum whicle could sot have been very
peremptory or precise, because no amount was fix.
officers were most politely received, and told that if the
European troops had come for justice they should most
assuredly have it, and that General Doblado, a most dis-
tinguished man, would go anti treat with the plenipoten-
tiaries. The plenipotentiaries, ending that the number of
sick at Vera Cruz increased every day, that they could have
no answer from Europe for two . These
months, and that the gene-
rals were at the head of six or seven thousand men without
means of transport, negotiated with General Doblado, and
agreed that their troops should occupy the healthy heights
oiff
theOr thatotiznaebga,oianticoonsndictaiomneto
tiey should retire from them
nothing. The Mexican flag
was again hoisted at Vera Crate, side by side with the flags
of the allies, but the custom-louses were still kept as a
pledge. Here of that famous convention
of le
lad ivie
regarded as so dishonourable.
psoih wash had
thebeen history
It was a convention which had saved the three little armies,
destroyed by the vomito at Vera
for
ut2h.ey would have been
M. Granter (IS Caßsagnac'Aire should not bate dayed
there,
M. Thiers—When would tutu have gone awayM. Granier de dassagnac—
immediately, Word iti hand.
M.
a
gone to Mexico.
jituobuihn earl ---(aWe membershoulodf htaz
majority)—How could that
have been) *hen We had not a single horse to draw a gun?
M. Thiers, resuming, said that for his own patt gate
great credit to Admiral Jurien de la Graviere for having
with, it was those who
cheandcifua
fancied
anybodyceided wt he convention. (Allelause on several benches.)
If
and men. Itit possibleaaw
(Several Voices—("Hear, hear,")
tos h
i tot
br6g found
conquer
had
that
justice
sttiee should be done to a Mexico with a few thous-
brave officer,
M. Thiers then showed that Alraonte's party in tamps
had succeeded in getting the French Government to decide
that it would not treat at all with Juarez, and to espouse
the project of making Archduke MaXimilian Emperor. He
regretted that the Government had never published the
minutes of the conference of Orizaba of April 16, where
these things clearly appeared, froth *hat M. de eialighy
and Admiral Jurien de la Graviere said of their instruc-
tions. Well, the war had gone on. After a year to repair
General Lorencz's check before Puebla, tile gallant Marshal
Forey had been sent out with large reinforcements, and,
as was to have been expected, he had taken the city of
Mexico. He would, after these indispensable prelimin-
aries, come to the immediate and practical question.
They were in Mexico, and what ought they to do now ?
Why, he Would rob o°4 wlt4 to they ought
to have done long ago. General Eaiaine, who was
—fed to be an able negotiator as well as a good
ter, -
general, had already quarrelled with the Archbishop of
Mexico, who represented the old regime, and had admitted
that the liberal party was in the right as to the national
property. That fact showed that the liberal party could not
be such very great barbarians. It was no doubt disagree-
table to treat with Juarez after having protested so long that
they would not do so; but that was the only rational thing
to do, as it had been quite ascertained that he was at the
head of the strongest party in the country. If they did not
do so the prospect was a permanent army of 40,000 men in
Mexico, and a
drain upon the budget of 13, 14, or 15 mil-
lions per month. As to the notion of setting up the Latin
against the Anglo-Saxon race, he did not think it worth
the consideration of serious men. The Archduke was
going out, they were told. He would arrive in April, just
in time to receive congratulations before the wet season set
in. He would admit that lee would be well received; he
never knew of a new prince who was not. But the rains
would prevent any military operations between May and
September or October. During all that while the new
monarch must be protected, for they could not be so un-

THE NAVY.
VALETTA, Jan. 22.—The Trafalgar, 72, Capt. T. Mason,
has been detained here till the arrival of the Meennee, 60,
Capt. G. Wodehouse, expected in a few days from Athens.
The Trafalgar will then proceed to England to be paid off.
The Cossack, 20, Capt. W. R. Rolland, received orders yes-
terday to hold herself in readiness to sail for Tripoli and
Benghazi. She is to convey Mr. Saunders, electrician to
Messrs. Glass, Elliot, and Co., to these places, for the pur-
pose of examining into the state of the Malta and Alexan-
dria telegraph cable, which has stopped working since the
13th inst. Yr. Saunders is expected from Marseilles to-
night. A steamer especially fitted for such employment
has been ordered from England to the Mediterranean to re-
pair the cable. The weather, which has been very boister-
ous for some time past, is rather calmer, bat is not quite
settled yet. From Alexandria accounts have been received
that an English steamer, named the Atlas, employed in im-
porting horses and cattle for the Viceroy from France, had
gone ashore at Rossetta, but had been got off and safely
towed into Alexandria by her Majesty's ship Psyche, to
whose commander, Lieut. P. Sterne, great credit is due for
his exertions in the matter, This is not the ship of the same
name belonging to Messrs. Burns and M'lver, of Liverpool.
The Placebo, 35, Capt. T. D. A, Fortescue, having completed
the repair of her engines in her Majesty's dockyard at this
island, will leave some time next week for the coast of Syria
to relieve the Liffey, 35, Capt. George Parker, The Eng-
lish screw steamer Semaphore, Capt. R. Green, arrived yes-
terday, from London 14 days, and Gibraltar six, with tele-
graph cable on board for Brindisi, and passengers Mr. G.
Henley and 15 labourers.

The iron-clad screw steamship Royal Oak, 35, Capt. F.
N. A. Campbell, having embarked supernumeraries for the
Channel Squadron and Royal Marines for the flagship
Edgar, now in the Tagus, is under orders to leave Plymouth
Sound for Lisbon, Gibraltar, and Malta. It will be recol-
lected that when docked in Keyham steamyard very serious
effects had been produced by the galvanic action of her
copper sheathing on the adjoining iron plates. Immediately
afterwards it was determined to protect an intermediate
space all round by the application of Hall's vitreous sheath-
ing; but it was subsequently resolved to use the vitreous
sheathing on one side and a band of zinc on the other. The
upper sheet of Muntz's metal, 14in deep, was therefore
stripped from the port side and a listing 7in wide and 31in
deep was cut into the ship. All the ends of the metal bolts
were then cut off. A plank 2in thick was introduced into the
bed of the cutting to prevent the ends of the belts from
coming into eirect contact with the band of zinc, which was
1? in thick. It being fastened on the plank the apace made
by the cutting became flush with the metal below and the
iron plates above. It is expected that this band will prove
a sufficient nonconductor to prevent the sheathing metal
from producing any galvanic action on the iron plates.
On the starboard side about 3,500 of Hall's vitrified plates
have been glued or fastened on in a depth varying from eft
under the stern to 2ft at the bow. There is a space. more or
less, of 21a net-we-en the loner edge of the copper sheathing
and the lower edge of the iron plates; this space is left in
order to cut off all connexion between the two metals, and
was well paid with Hall's anti-fouling composition. The
Three lower tiers of vitreous plates are fastened on the wood
with composition nails ; those above are glued. The edges
of the upper tier are covered by the teak-rubbing pieces
Some difficulty was experienced in fixing the plates under
the quarters and near the sternport, in consequence of the
shape of the ship. The thinnest plates were selected for
this purpose. Like the rest, they were forced on by hand
pressure only. Where galvanic action had eaten through
the face of the armour plates, the holes or pits have been
filled with a mixture of Portland cement and Hall's glue.
It was, however, previously necessary to expose these pits
to the lengthened heat of burning charcoal, in order to ex-
tract from the iron the salt left by the previous admission
of sea water when she was in active service. To protect the
stem a plate of vitrified iron was prepared, 4ft 4in long, 18in
deep, 191 in wide, and in in thickness. This plate was
brought home to the stem by vitrified screws (having en-
amelled heads) to within the 16th of an inch, it was then
puddled below, and hot glue having been poured in above,
the screws were driven in, and the plate was firmly fastened.
It is understood that zinc is more liable to be injured by
contiguity with Muntz's metal than iron, but the zinc band
can be readily replaced in dock without damaging the ship.
The Royal Oak will be accompanied by the gunboat Trin-
cube, tender to the Edgar.
Her Majesty's iron steam store ship Industry, Master
°meander Youel, from Rio de Janeiro, having landed
nig stores at Deptford yesterday, went
sides
to vide;.:
clogged with barnat.Ls and sea
ise docked and cleaned down, as her sides
to Woolwich to
took place at Portsmouth
Some testing of armour plate: qua interest from
yesterday, which was attended with meal
the comparative results obtained with differe; kinds
sun o
projectiles fired from the 95cwt 63-pounder cast iron
and the 100-pounder Elswick smooth-bore. The plates
were each of 51in in thickness, 15ft 6in in length, and 3ft
3in in width. One from Messrs. John Brown and Co., of
Sheffield, was for the iron frigate Agincourt, and the
other liras sent in by the Millwall Ironworks for the iron
frigate Northumberland. Both were tested in the first
place with cast iron shot from the 68-pounder gun in the
incline,' *ay, in order to award them their figure of
merit, according to the Admiralty regulations, for quality
of metal and manufacture. Both passed through this
ordeal satisfactorily, although tried severely by clusters of
shot impacts and edge blows. Tho maximum depth of
the indents Was 2in, and the minimum 1 1-16 in. On
Brown and Co.'s plate, in its upper right centre, four shots
struck in a semicircular line, that measured but 32in
through the gteetest extent of the curve. Throughout
this space there was mite one small surface crack. On
the left lower cornei el this plate five shots struck imping-
ing on each circumference. Two of them were only half on
the plate w
's edge. There as nothing like penetration even
here—nothing, indeed, but a longitudinal Le:ening
of the
metal, about an inch in depth, and a slight stretching: open
of the laminae on the edge. The plate exhibited wonderful
tenacity and solidity, without the slightest appearance of
brittleness. The Millwall plate was also struck in several
places ott its tight edge, but without penetration being
effected, although a enroll semicircular piece, 24in in length
by 10in in width, was broken out through half the plate's
thickness. The laminae were opened on the plate's edge in
the vicinity of the places struck. The plates were of un-
doubted excellence both in the quality of the metal and in
their manufacture. It is doubtful, indeed, if a plate supe-
rior in any way to Messrs. Brown's was ever tested at Ports-
mouth. It is necessary to dwell thus on the extraordinary
qualities of these two plates in order to render clear the
true vairie of the firing which followed on the official testing
of the plates being concluded, and which was as follows :
Messrs. Brown's plate was selected for firing against with
improved cast-iron spherical (crucible) shot from the Els.
wick 100-pounder smooth bore gun (diaraeter of bore ern
and weight 120ewt 2qrs), with a charge of 251 b of powder.
Three shots were fired. No. 1 struck the plate on the lower
edge and touched a bolt. It produced an indent of 4in at
its greatest depth, with a diameter of 91in, and with only a
surface crack round the indent. No. 2 struck just over the
lower edge, producing an indent of 10in in diameter and a
greatest depth of 3 8-10 in, with a slight surface crack in the
indent. Both these shots were destroyed in the ordinary
manner of cast-iron projectiles. No. 3 shot struck fairly on
the plate, and part of it remained fastened in the plate's
outer surface. It will be seen that the damage in-
flicted by these improved cast-iron shot was hardly
commensurate with their increased anweightd
the andh
the extra 91b of powder charge as compareit
the 68-pounder gun. The Millwall plate had next three steel
shots sent against it from the same Elswick gun, with
similar charge of 251 b. of powder, and the results obtained
with these steel projectiles were certainly astonishing. Plate s
have been pierced before by steel shot, but never one of
equal excellence with the Millwall plate of yesterday. No. 1
shot struck abent 4in below the upper edge of the plate, a
distance away from any damaged part, and, breaking right
through, buried itself and the broken parts.of the plate in