The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-23 00:00:00

THE LAND-TAX.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in an-
swer to a question by Mr. Wodehouse, relating to the
subject of the inequalities in the apportionment of the
land-tax, and referring particularly to the evidence
given by J. Wood, Eq., the chairma❑ of the Board of
Inland Revenue, before a Committee of the House of
Lords, on the subject of the burdens affecting real pro-
perty, in 1846, said ttylt he did not quite understand the
question of his Hon. Friend; but he believed he wished
to know whether there was any prospect or possibility
of obtaining a juster apportionment of the land-tax. He
had, therefore, to inform his Hon. Friend that the ques-
tion whether, under the existing law, a juster apportion-
ment of the land-tax could be procured, wfts about to be
solemnly argued before the Court of Queen's Bench.
The authorities of the Tower Hamlets had procured a
rule nisi, and if the proceedings were not set aside, a
juster apportionment would be obtained. Considering,
therefore, that the matter was under the consideration
of one of the superior courts, he did not think he was
justified in speculating as to what the decision might be.

EMIGRATION TO AUSTRALIA.
Mr. B. CARTER begged to ask the Secretary for the
Colonies if he had directed his attention to the subject
of the assistance which might be afforded to emigration
from this country by obtaining the co-operation of the
local Legislatures icy Australia in facilitating the reco-
very of loans advanced in England, in individual cases,
for emigration purposes?
Sir J. PAKINGTON fully admitted the importance
of the question, and could only assure the House that
his attention had been directed to the subject. He very
much doubted, however, whether any legislation on the
part of the local Legislatures would remove the difficul-
ties respecting the recovery in the colonies of money ad-
vanced in this country to further emigration. In many
cases in which money had been advanced it had been
recovered, or it had been appropriated i❑ sending out
the families of the parties. Looking, however, at the
great extent of the country, and the scattered nature of
the Population, he doubted whether any movement in
the direction indicated by the Hon. Gentleman would
prove successful.
Mr. MIME asked whether the Government intended
to assist the hand-loom weavers in emigration?
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he had before answered
this question, when he had stated that applications had
been made by the handloom weavers, and especially of
Scotland, for assistance i❑ emigrating, and that partly
in consequence of a relaxation in the rules of the Emi-
gration Commissioners, and partly owing to the efforts
of private associations, improved facilities had been
Afforded.

THE EXPULSION OF BRITISH MISSIONARIES
FROM THE AUSTRIAN DOMINIONS.
Sir H. VERNEY begged to ask her Majesty's Go-
vernment whether they are taking any measures to ob-
tain compensation for the Revs. Messrs. Smith and
Wingate, missionaries to the Jews at Pesth, and for the
Rev. Mr. Edwardes, a missionary to the Jews at Lem-
berg, from the Free Church of Scotland, who were ex-
pelled from the Austrian dominions during the last
winter, under circumstances of great hardship, and who
sustained in consequence a considerable loss of property ?
Lord STANLEY replied that all the papers had been
laid on the table of the House, and that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Youghal (Mr. C. Anstey) had given a notice of
motion on the subject. Under the circumstances he did
not think it necessary, nor would the House, he thought,
consider it desirable, that he should further allude to the
question.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir H. VERNEY said he was merely anxious to know
whether any measures had been taken to procure com-
pensation for these gentlemen?
Lord STANLEY replied that the subject had long
been under the consideration of the Government. It
had for some time engag- d the attention of Lord Gran-
ville and the Earl of Malmesbury, and such being the
case, he (Lord Stanley) must refer the Hon. Baronet to
the papers which had been laid upon the table.—(tlesr.)
Mr. J. WILSON moved for copies of all correspond-
ence between the Bombay Government and the Indian
authorities at home, in relation to the trade of Sinde
and the establishment of an annual fair at the port of
Currachee; with copies of inclosures contained in such
correspondence.—Agreed to.
VALUATION (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion for going' into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. SCULLY moved that the House go into Com-
mittee that day three months. He objected to the pre-
sent measure on the ground that it proposed to alter the
Act under which six counties had already been valued,
and that it was contrary to the recommendation of tho
Committee appointed in 1845. In fact, it entirely altered
the system of valuation hitherto pursued in Ireland, and
set at nought the principle laid down by the Poor-law
Commissioners. The true principle on which to proceed
would be to ascertain the price of agricultural produce
in Ireland, but over and above that it was incumbent on
the Government first to ascertain what proportion of the
poor-rates should be paid by the tenant and what by
the landlord. Nearly 70 amendments had been given
notice of, and for this reason alone he should oppose the
further progress of the measure. The Government
would do well during the recess to consider the whole
subject of valuation in Ireland, for they might bo assured
that the principle on which the system was carried on
was most erroneous. He objected to the power of appeal
that was proposed to be given under this Bill, and he
also objected to a measure of such importance being
taken at a period of the session when there were so few
Irish Membess present. The Hon. Gentleman concluded
by moving an amendment that the House go into Com •
mittee upon the Bill that day three months.
Sir D. NORREYS seconded the amendment.

The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. MON6ELL felt deeply the importance of this
Bill, which he thought was well calculated to remove
those evils of which they complained in Ireland. This
was a measure which he belived would give to his
country a fair and impartial system of valuation. He
therefore entreated the House at once to go into Com-
mittee upon this Bill, 'which he believed would meet with
almost universal favour in Ireland.
Sir D. NORREYS hoped that the Government would
not force on this measure at that late period of the ses-
sion. It was far too important a Bill to be brought in
at such a time, and it demanded the attention of every
person connected with Ireland. The Bill proposed to
establish an entirely new system of valuation in Ireland
and he hoped English Members would not force such a
Bill on Ireland without giving the Irish Members an op-
portunity of bringing all the facts connected with the
subject before the House. He would suggest that the
present Bill be withdrawn, and that at an early period of
next session a Committee should be appointed to inquire
into the whole subject.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE thought that the speech of
the Hon. Member who had just sat down ought to have
been delivered on the second reading of the Bill. He
pressed on Government the necessity of proceeding with
the Bill, for nothing could be more unsatisfactory than
the present state of valuation in Ireland.
Mr. V. SCULLY said that he was not opposed to a
good system of legislation, but he could not see the ne-
cessity of proceeding with the present Bill within a few
days of the dissolution of Parliament, when no time
would be afforded for a full and fair examination of the
question. They were now asked, within ten days of
the prorogation of Parliament, to do that which different
Governments had in vain attempted to do during the
last 20 years. The average on which the scale of prices
had been based were not to be relied on; and there was
no provision in the Bill for auditing the accounts of the
expenditure. The system to be introduced ought to be
one by which all parties would abide without insisting
on change and alteration every session. His own feeling
was that rules should be laid down for taking this valua-
tion by responsible officers. He was as anxious for a
good measure of valuation as any Hon. Gentleman on
the Government benches. But it was now too late in
the session to introduce so important a measure;aild,
therefore, he suggested that the Bill should bethe
with-
drawn for the present, and maturely eoneid erecess, with a view to have an efficient measureed
intro-
duced in the next session. olreland would
Mr. F. SCULLY was sure the people
introduced for
not forget the description of measurseesasiaa;and before
their country at the fag-end of every
Government would
long, he doubted not, her Igrt,2estaYci! ,
be brought to account on that ti
Lvill.hdrawn, and the Hom 1
e 1
The amendment was then
went into Committee on the
Di
On the 47th clause,ic p
,), sproposed an amendment, giving
Sir D. NORL'7rated for county and other purposes I
payable fur tenements whereon' 1
power to occupiterh;
to deduct from
n levied, the amount of ratepaid, in the 1
the rate has bee rent,
rate paid for the relief
of
the poor would
way as the
()dead
hoped the Committee would not
Aacsted.h
havesaine been
Mr- an
amendment involving e •
adopt an am°.o Important a principle.'
Tho Committee divided,when
there appeared—
For the amendment 3
Against it ~ ••• •• i
..11 .„ ... 0
MajOKity ... ... ... ...78

The remaining chives were then agreed to, and the
811, having gene thrJugh Committee, was ordered to
be reported this day.
The report on the Crime and Outrage (Ireland) Bill
was brought up, and the Bill ordered to be read a third
time this day.
The Nita Prius Officers Bill was read a third time.
On the motion of Mr. FRESHFIELD, some amend-
ments were introduced in the measure, and it then passed.
The order of the day having been read for consider-
ing the Patent Law Amendment Bill, an amended,
Mr. CARTER moved the insertion of the following
clause:—"l any person shall, by himself, or by the
agency of any other person or persona, knowingly, wil-
fully, and fraudulently pirate, imitate, or manufacture,
for sale or profit, any article, or part of an article, pro-
tected by letters patent under this or any other Act, he
shall be guilty of a mitdemeanor, and on conviction
thereof before any court of general or quarter sessions,
oyer and terminor, or gaol delivery, shall be liable to
he imprisoned for any term not exceeding twelve ea'
lender months, with or without hard labour, or to pay
a flue not exceeding 100 t, with or without imprison-
ment as aforesaid; provided always, that no conviction
for this offence shall prevent or defeat any civil reme
ly
which the party aggrieved may have by action or other-
wise."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER cPP"d•
tbc motion. Ho had never heard a more monstrous pro-
position.
The motion was then negatived without a division,
and the amendments the Bill were agreed to.
The amendments in the Encumbered Estates (Ireland)
Bill were agreed to.
Tee Common Law Procedure Bill was read a third
time.

On the quts,ion that the Bill do pass,
Mr. S. WORTLEY moved addition of a clause,
" To empower her Majesty to apply the provisions of
this Bill, at any time she may think proper, to any
court of record in the kingdom besides those of
Wr!itminster."

The clause was brought up and agreed to.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
The School Sites Acts Extension Bill passed through
Committee, as also did the Property of Lunatics Bill.
The Masters in Chancery Abolition Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The Distres.led Unions (Ireland) Rill went through
Committee, as also, did the Woods, Forests, and Land
Revenues Bill.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

A messenger from the Lords brought up the foll?W'
ing Bills, to which their Lordships had agreed:—
Gedling's Estate Bill, without amendment.
Corrupt Practices at Elections.
Eufranchisement of Copyholds.
Trustees Acts Extension.
Militia.
Aberdeen Boys' and Girls' Hospital.
Lanesshire and Y,,rkshire Railway.
London Nt-cropolis and National Mausoleum.
County Courts further Extension, with amendments:

difficulty in pint of iaterpretation; for whereas in former were regarded merely as a power which gave to this
film.' tataourt of juttice was the m-diem of deciding Ceeir ; country a check upon the representative chamber, then
Eat ini•ig whenever a cause arose, at present the °eine Ihe cane:ea-led that any such body was euperflaeus. The
nia'-office—whieh in its neture was a secret trihunet— : Governer aepointed by the Crown had toe power of veto •
War tee tole interpreter. And it wee no answ.'r to the lon tha acts ot the T-4-gislivive Assembly, it was, there-
ci je than that existed against the practice that the ; fore, quit(' aerate s w-y to ertette aeetlier pa,,er of veto
Nth!, Earl lately at the head of the Colonittl-affiee, on his lin a body of rennin es. Ho (; he Duke of Newcastle)
own part, as atetll its on that of his Predhattaorst pleaded I was not an advocate for giving the right of electioti of
the plenitude of liberality exercised by them in regerd members for tea Upper Chamaar to the same body of
qualifieation might be
to the power of disallowance, stating that there was not persons who elected the House of Representatives; but
tnero than 21- per cent. on all colonial Bilk to which it he thought a higher electoral
Was applied. in respect to the next Point—the election adopted, that the el, eted might enjoy a longer tenure of
of officers—he (Lord Lytteltnn) believed the appoint- office, and that the area of representation might be en-
meet of a governor by the C,i,ivn was as good as the barged. With raaard to that portion of the Gill which
app intment of a governor by election; hut he was of related to the latal sales and the New Zeal and Company,
opinion that the primary evil was the temporary nature he recettnnentled that the clauses should be postponed
of the Office. It was understood the governor of a until the eltargeo wincia had been brought against the
colony was to be removed at the eed of five, six, or company had been fully examined and reported upon.
seven years; and this prevented all possibility of iden- t After having given to tee metier the best consideration
tification with the interests of the colonists. The next in his power, he could not help thinhinF-,,
that it would
point—viz, self-defence, was, in the charter of Mary- be wise, just, and politic, and that it would lead even-
land, entirely entrusted to the settlers; who had power tually to a more satisfactory settlement of the question,
given them to make war, by sea and by land, on all that the clauses relating to the New Z-, !land Company
enemies whatsoever that came against the colony; and should be altogether omitted from the Bill.
there was no reservation of the duty of self-support in Earl GREY said that he thought it advisable to deal 1
that respect. The normal state of the ancient colonies in the first instance with that subject to which the
of the country wa,3, therefore, to support themselves, Noble Duke had directed their attention towards the
to defend themselves, and to bear their own costs: conclusion of his address, namely, the clauses in the
the normal state of our modern colonies WaS quite Bill tshich referred to the claims of the New Zadand
the reverse, That system was in spirit nearly ideottasl Company. He certainly regretted to think that it should
with the prayer of the petition presented by a Neble be necessary to lay on that rising ctlony aeh trtge such
bathe (Argyll) on a previous evening, a prayer which 28 tll':t which these clauses would impose. But it ap
it had been said, Wail inconsistent with the existence of pear dto him that that was a ntcessity arising out of the
a colonial empire. .It was, however, in operation for obliaaden to do justice ta those without whose (ffort-:
more than a century when the North American colonies and sacrifices there would be no colony at all in New
were the pride and glory of England, and when Eng- Z.:a:l'B,Al. Many persons were in the habit of findieg
land possessed a colonial empire in the best sense of great fault with the New Zealand Company; and he had
the word. The result was, that the early colonists certainly never been one of their determined supporters.
Were masculine, generous, and self-relying men; who But at the same time he was bound to say that, in his
asked no assistance from the mother country, but who opinion, the c: y which was at present raised against
gave it. The question in his mind was not as to the them was not less unjust than the attempt which had
material wealth of a colony, but as to the character of formerly been made to support them had been unwise and
the men with whom this country was peopliog the uncalled for. The high character of the gentlemen who
world. The spirit of these colonists was not that of the presided over the company certainly offered a reason-
colonists at the frontiers on the Cape of Good Hope,who able ground for supposing that they had, at all events,
set forth their own tin warlike dispositions as inapplicable acted in an honourable manner; and there was this
tor seltadefence. Year after year they had to contend further ground for that belief, that they had been heavy
for life with savages far more daring and far more dan- losers by their connexion with the undertaking. Large
gerous than the Kafir tribes; and that spirit it was sums had been sunk by them, for the repayment of
which caused them to rise and shake off the yoke which they had only the distant prospect held out to
of misrule which had been laid upon them them by the arrangement set forth in the present Bill.
by the unjust domination of the mother country. For his part, the great fault which ho found with them
As regarded loyalty, too, these colonies were far be- was that they had shown themselves somewhat deficient
fore the modern colonies; for whereas Franklin never in worldly wisdom and prudence, in adopting too easily
even thought of separation until long after Lord Gran- the plausible schemes of a very elt ver projector—a pro-
vill'e folly and oppression had driven the American jector whose talents he (Earl Grey) should be the last
colonists to revolt, Canada and Australia talk of sepa- man to deny, but whose cleverness was not accompanied
ration upon the recurrence of every paltry grievance, by other qualities quite as necessary to make him a safe
In conclusion, ho (Lord Lyttleton) would only add on or a trustworthy guide. He thought, too, that the di-
the general subject, that the Bill was a return in some rectors of the company had failed to evince any high de-
Sort to the ancient system of colonisation, and that he gre ofjudgmsnt in conducting the great enterprise in
hoped before long that system would be fully revived which they had somewhat rashly embarked. But perhaps
As regarded the details of the Bill they were to be that was a necessary consequence ct the very con-
looked
at under two asty ets. The first referred to the stitution of a board of directors. Ile believed that such
Provincial governments; the second to the general go. a board was never likely to be capable of a consistent
vernment. It was good with respect to the control of and sound management of the affairs of a great corn-
lane sales by the colonists; also with respect to pany, unless some one individual took a complete lead of
the constitution of the general Legislature, because the rest of the body, and virtually became its manager.
it got rid of the intermixture in the same That the New Ztaland Company had not succeeded in a
Chamber of the elective members and nominees pecuniary point of view was not, hi his opinion, much to
of the Crown. Many expressed their admire- be wondered at. The difficulties in the way of founding
tine of the Constitution of the United States. a distant colony were so great that he believed under-
For his own part he did not wish, in any consti- takings of the kind could never be a source of profit to
tution, for our colonies to imitate the United States their original projectors. He might state, for the pur-
since the period of the revolution. What he would fol- pose of illustrating those difficulties, that the Canterbury
low as a model was the constitution of those states when Association had, as be had heard, gone through the
they were colonies of this empire. However, with re- common lot, and had declared itself insolvent within the
Specs to the Bill, taking it altogether, her Majesty's Go- last few days. He believed that the correct principle
eernment had introduced a much better measure than for Parliament and the Government to adopt in such
he thought they had ever intended. He remembered cases was to avoid, as far as possible, any interference
the w;11-deserved sneer of the Noble Lord at the head of with the projectors beyond what was required for guard-
the Government, expressed at the opening of the pre- ing the country from the danger of future expense and
sent session, at the amount of knowledge possessed and future trouble, and for preventing those public
of the interest felt in their Lordships' House about the calamities which might take 1
p-Ace it the Government
affairs of New Zealand. Nevertheless, he thought that were to exercise no control on those occasions. Perhaps
there was no one of their Lordships who would believe his Noble Friend near him (Lord lay ttelton) would
that this Bill had been unwisely introduced, or that the allow him to illustrate the principle which he thought
consideration it had met with had been unwisely be• ought to be adopted in those matters, by stating the
Stowed; and for himself, he should be well content that course which he had pursued at the period of the loan-
the Bill should pass without any material alteration in it. elation of the Canterbury Association, of which his
Lord WODEHOUSE said that all who had paid any Noble Friend was a most distinguished member. That
attention to the frame work of the Bill would readily was a plan ter the formation of a great Church colony
acknowledge that, in a theoretical point of view, there in a part of New Zealand which had then been unoccu-
Were some objections to be made to it—that in fact they pied. He had been told that the projectors had had a
Would not find in it a perfect model of a constitution, large sum of money reedy, and that they had been pre-
There appeared to be a total absence of any leading pared to undertake their scheme at their own risk with
principle in it, ant] it might be plausibly objected to that the assistance of the New Zealand Company. He had
It gave a disproportionate amount of government for so ventured to express very strongly to the projectors his
*Mall a community—a government consisting as it did opinion that they would be greatly disappointed in their
of six provincial legislatures, a general legislative expectations; and that with 'lie large price which they
assembly, comprising two houses, a governor in chief, asked for laud they would find it impossible to afford to
and six provincial governors—and all this for a popula- purchasers the advantages which they
promised. But
'ion not numbering more than 20,000 Europeans alto- he had also told them that if nothing were done
gather. With respect to the analogy which had been which could in any way delude the ' public as
°ought to be established between she New Zealand to the real state of the case, and if certain regu-
colonies, he did not think it could hold; the cis- lations were adopted for the purpose of insuring
Ournstances of ,each were so different, and in no one the people of this country and of the colony against
thing were they more different than in the comma- claims which might otherwise arise against them,
tively easy means of communicationbetween the he could see no objection to the scheme being under-
different parts of the colony which now existed, and taken at their own ritk. He had thought at the time,
Which afforded facilities for carrying out a central and be still retained the opinion, that whatever might be
government, Neither did ho think that the the disappointment to the original proprietors, a colony
example of the United States of the present day was would be established which would in the end become aanalogous. Tne United States territory was so large great and flourishing community. The association had
that it would be impossible to have free institutions in hcen formed, and the results bed been precisely such as
it, except in a federal form. New Zealand was in a po- ho had anticipated. In his opinion it was no part of the
sition comparatively isolated, and the powers given duty of the Government or of Parliament to find pru-
11, nder this Bill, undoubtedly large as they were, would, deuce for private individuals, and to prevent them from
tie had no doubt, be readily pat into operation. The emhark'iig ate measures which, ltd far as they were con-
People of the neighbouring Australian colonies, how- corned, rnesht riot lead to satisfactory results. T. the
ever, could not bat strongly feet the contrast which their case of the Canterbury Association no claim was likely
eonstitution presented to that given by this Bill to New to arise against the public, and for this reason, that the
Zealand, conferring as the latter did, the management relations between the association and the Government
Of the waste lands upon the colonists themselves, whilst had been clearly defined from the commencement.
that management in the case of the Australian colonies But, unfortunately, in dealing with the New Z sgland
Was made a matter of reservation for the Imperial Go- Company, the sarne course bad not been adopted.
Veroment at home. The effect of the contrast would They had claims against the public arising
Drobably be to abandon the management of the waste out of the fact, that in the earliest stage of
lands to the colonists in the case of Australia also. An- their existence their measures had been thwarted
Other important concession made to the colonists in this partly by the Government at home, and still snore by
till wag on the subject of the veto of the Imperial Go- the local authorities in the colony, and that by that
aernment and the power of disallowance of Bills for two means their chances of success bed been diminished.
sears by the governor. These were wise concessions, That was the conclu-ion at which the Committee of the
and made at the proper time. We had now colonies House of Commons, which had inquired into the subject
Speedily growing up to manhood, and if we treated them in the year 1844, had arrived; and that Committee had
in a generous anti liberal spirit, abandoning all vexatious further decided that that circumstance gave the company
interference in their purely local affairs, they would a claim against the Government and Parliament which
readily submit to general control in matters of Imperial were bound to place them in as good a situation as that
interest to the Imperial Government in return for the which they would have held if no such ground of corn-
Protection afforded to them, bound as they are to the plaint had existed. The Noble Earl opposite (the Earl
mother country by community of language, of coinmer of Derby) had himself felt that claim ae strongly that
041 interests, and of political institutions. immediately before his retirement from the Colonial-
The Duke of NEWCASTLE regretted that the Bill office he bad made arrangements for resisting the com-
4ad come before them at a period of the session when it patty by means of a loan. When he (Earl Grey) bad
was in vain to expect to secure a discussion on either the been appointed to the direction of the same office, he
ascend reading, or in the Committee, notwithstanding had found that what had been done for the company bad
that the measure was one of the utmost importance, and been very far indeed from compensating them for the
that in it the Government had made concessions which injury they had sustained in consequence of previous
Were so large that he doubted whether the Government measures adopted towards them, and more especially in
tad really intended to confer them. For his owlspart coast quence of the great delay in giving them possession
e certainly approved of the Bill, especially of the pro- of their land. He had thought that something further
Vision which admitted of the colonists altering the Con- should be done in order to enable them to try fairly the
stitution, should it appear to require it; for it was im- scheme for which they had been originally incorporated.
Possible for the Government here at home to legislate The subject had, accordingly, been placed in the hands
satisfactorily upon all the various and conflicting points of the late lamented Mr. Charles Buller, who had di-
11Pen which even the colonists themselves would find rected great attention to the question, and had on ve-
il great difficulty in coming to a unanimous de- rious occasions shown great ability in discussing it; and,
cision. Three different schemes of government had after considerable irquiry, Mr. Buller had devised an
been suggested for the colony—viz,,a central go- arrangement which had ultimately been approved of by
vernment, a subdivision of the colony into two him (Earl Grey) and by his colleagues in the Go-
Provinces—and thirdly, the plan now before the vete:went. The great points on which he had espe-
/louse, giving a separate local legislature to each of ciaily taken precautions against future disputes and
The six separate provinces, controlled by a central inconvenience
were, first, that the pecuniary assist-
legislature,
which was composed of the elements of mince to be given to the company was not to exceed
all six. With respect to the first of these, he held it im- a certain amount, and next, that that was to be a con-
Possible to establish a central government, when, in elusive measure—that it was to be a discharge in full of
! ,ality there was no natural centre in the country. all possible claims on the part of the company. The
There was equal objection to the subdivision into two Bill of 1847 had been prepared in order to carry out that
Provinces; and, with respect to the third scheme, he con- arrangement, end had ultimately received the assent of
'littered it by far the best. As to the objection that the Parli.raent. In working out the arrangement it had al-
amount of population was not sufficient to warrant so ways appeared to him that there had been one clear rule
Much machinery of government as this Bill contained, he for him to follow—nee:lett?, to remember that the great
Consider©d it by no means an insuperable objection: the object of the measure was to enable the company to try
Population would rapidly increase, and a large population fairly whether the plan of a great colonising company
*as by no means an essential element in a local govern- could succeed. He had thought that it had not been the
asent, He was only afraid that the concurrent power of duty of the Government to have decided whether the
the local and the central legislatures would not act bar- measures of the company had been prudent or not, be-
koniously, and that there was some ground for the ap- cause the essence of the scheme had been that the com-
Prehension that greatconfusion would result from it. It pany should receive a largo discretion. At the end of
was a wise proceeding, to exclude nominees Lem the the period which bad been named by the company them-
legislature; they formed a most jarring element in the selves for fairly trying the experiment they had found
Constitution of the assemblies in other colonies; and it that, notwithstanding the large pecuniary assistance they
Was equally prudent to coneede the appointment of the had received, they could no longer have gone on; and
6, Uperintendents by election in the colonies. It would then they resigned their functions, and had, under the
°a far easier for the colonies to obtain in that way terms of the Act, made certain claims upon the Go-
-4 more suitable man for the office than the Government, vernment, which were ultimately to be paid out of the
and the opinion of Governor Grey confirmed that view. land revenues of New Z-alaud. He certainly felt sur-
/le now came to a part of the Bill to which he could not prised to hear the Noble Duke declare that the company
offer the same meed of approbation that he gave to other had no moral claims upon the Government; and he (Earl
Portions of it—he alluded to the principle which it Grey) would defy any man to inquire into the facts of
adopted with reeard to the
constitution of the Upper the case and come to the conclusion that the claims
chamber of the
Legislature, and in wh' . leli respect there of the company could be honestly repudiated. He
on
from the upon claims
Was a complete departure the simple wording of the Act of
Billof Earl "
d for the
measure was said to be founde ,already stood. That Act, in his opi-
Grey, he believed, Th '
adopted the elective principle. e nion, supposed the ultimate payment of the debt; and if
fault of the measure seemed to him (the Duke of New- it were to be paid, it was the interest both of the com-
castle) to be a want of unity of principle; and he could pany and of the colony that it should be paid as speedily
hot help thinking that the same grounds for abandoning as possible by the best administration of the land revenue.
the nominee system in the representative Chamber He entirely concurred with the Noble Duke (Newcastle)
Should have induced the Government to abandon that that an inquiry into this subject was imperatively neces-
system in the case of the Upper Chamber. Again, nary, and that in another Parliament a searching inves-
the Bill would Plates the Colonial Secretary in the tigation before a Committee of the House ought to take
,Position of an arbitrator, whose office it would place. So far as he was concerned, he wished that every
Q 9 to act between the Governor and nominee Cham- letter and document, public or private, should be pro-
her and the representative body. Moreover, he was of 1 duced and carefully examined, and that the result should
opinion that they would never get a body of nominees ' ho fairly reported upon by an impartial Committee.
to pay that attention to the work which was required He was persuaded that if that was done, although he
item a legislative assemblY• This system was intended, was far from being prepared to defend every act and
he presumed, to bear some sort of resemblance to foe- proceeding of the company, there would be found no-
Denial institutions ; but if it were so, it appeared to him thing whatever to reflect upon the honour or probity
that the Government were pursuing the shadow and not of the gentlemen by whom its affairs were carried on.
the substance of a Conservative policy.
He thought As an inquiry was to take place, it would be worse
they were grasping at a notion of something Conserve- than useless in him to give any opinion with regard to
!ire in a nominee house of assembly—something of an the groundlessness of the charges that had bean brought
Imperial character—whilst they were losing the sub- against the company elsewhere. It would be also
stance of a really Conservative measure namely, impassible that the House could fully understand
taking this body elective, and thereby introducing men , e • '
all .nplleations without a lengthened
the case in :hi its C,,
Who had an interest in the colony, and in the pre
"rya- retare, e° to the voluminous pipers which had been laid
tioe of all that concerned it, which nominee members before parliament, ore Parliament. 13a, the re were tea) main points put
l'-'ltlem had, end, he believed, in fact never could possess. forward as charges: against the company to which he
't was absurd to suppose that a nominee chamber in a would briefl allude—first first that of applying the public
"lonv like New Zealand could have any similarity to money
entrusted e—
not originally in-
to them to purposes -
00, House of Lords. There was no element in the colony tended; and second,costeinopinions that had been
to correspond with such an institution, and though seat out to the colony" to
regard to the first of these
With
Perhaps, in theory, at first sight, appointments by ! charges, he could 8,- . for the two gentlemen who were
the Crown or the representative of the Crown , connected with the af; (i or
t -the funds as com-
ministration of .
rcielat wink rather more like a lleuse of Lords than a mis'aonors, and Without
boapractically whoee permission no money
--y elected by the people, yet if it were could he applied—one of them- ' . • involved in
had bee ,me
t4arnieed, the appearance would fade away, and it , some disputes with the compel end led to
Would at once be seen what a shadow and an unreality 1 his removal; ho was succeedediy, which in the
the Whole thing Farther, *f the nominee chamber ' honour and judgment he felt was. x I by a gentleman in . whose
equal onfia while he
ence,

felt still more for his temper and discretion. It was only
in a ease where the money was likely to be applied in a
manner contrary to the intentions of Parliament that
he (Earl Grey) advised their interference. Then
with regard to the opinions he would only make one
short observation. In 1849 papers were laid before
Parliament, and given to the world, and sent out to
the colony, in ethich was the fact that an opinion
of counsel unfavourable to the company had
been pronoacced ; but, at the same time, he had himself
explicitly stated his opinion to be in favour of the com-
pany, These opinions were known in the colony three
years previously. The whole question was whether
the settlement between the company and the settlers was
a fair and proper one. The fact was, that it was one
most favourable to the settlers. The circumstance cf
that opiniun heving been given was known to ell the
world, and no attempt was made to disturb that settle.
ment. He could only express a hope that the inquiry
would take pl tee; but in the meantime it was their duty
to adhere to their bargain, and let them have the advan-
tege. He thought that out of justice to the company
the arrangement as suggested by her Majesty's Go-
vernment ought to be maintained. The settlers of New
Zealand had no right to complain of that—they were to
hr charged with a quarter of the gross proceeds of the
sale of the land towards the discharge of the com-
panfs debts. Now, what gave value to the land
was the expenditure of capital by the Parliament
and the company; and that being so, it was desirable
that the New Zealand Company, who had received
nothing for their large expeeditnre for many years,
should have that amount from the land. The settlers
could have no right to complain of that as being unjust;
but he thought it was an error in the Bill not to stare
that the future liabilities which might arise under the
Act of 1847 sheuld be defrayed out of the New Zealand
laud revenue; they had certainly uo right to come upon
the British Treasury or the nation. That was the view
he entertained while he held the Colonial seals, and it
would be satisfactory if the Bill had contained a clause
to that effect. With regard to the larger and more
general question, the Noble Lord who spoke second in
the debate entered fully into it, but he did not think his
Noble Friend had read history very correctly. He did
not think he could say that the old American colonies
had complete control over the land and revenues of the
colot ies.

Lord LYTTELTON—By their charters.
Earl GREY—That, of course, was a very different
matter. He also stated that they had unrestricted trade
with all the world, but this could not be established by
the fact, as from the earliest date it was the policy of
France, of England, and of every other country, to re
strict Lae colonies exclusively to their own use and
benefit. They were looked upon as a species of Crowe
land. It was further stated that they had au unlimited
power or making war. Undoubtedly they made war
upon the natives; but beyond that they had no wars of
their own, and that was the only species of war the)
were likely to make. There were only three or four pro-
visions of the Bill to which he thought it right to offer
any objection. The first was, as to the change in the
constitution of the provincial councils. Ile believed that
a ;;teat portion of the public business would devolve on
these councils; but it was quite necessary also that
there should be general councils to meet special cases
and to meet occasionally. He had urged the same objec-
tion with regard to the Act relating to the Australian co-
lonies. It ties, at the same time, satisfactory to find that
the Government had given a general over riding authority
to the general legislature. He thought, also, that great
inconvenience would arise from that provision of the
Bill which deprived the Crown of a veto upon the acts
of the colonial legislature. He had always thought that
the Crown ought to have this supreme authority; ane
it would be impossible beforehand to define what act'
they should be allowed to pass without any control, and
what acts the Imperial Legislature might place its veto
on. That would give rise to conflicts of authority and
jurisdiction; and they were all aware that such reall)
occurred in the United States. Without such a provi•
sion as he had referred to, he feared that very serious
inconvenience and embarrassment would result. On the
other hand, he could not see how any practical inconve-
nience would result from granting this power to the
Crown. It was said that two years would be an unne-
cessarily long time for disallowing colonial acts; but
that, it appeared to him, would be an advantage. In the
course of that period, experience had shown that amend
meats were often made in Acts hastily passed before
they were submitted for her Majesty's assent. He
thought the making superintendents elective was a
mistake, these offices being analogous to that el
sheriffs in England, and therefore in some respects
under the control of the Governor of the colony-
They all knew that the foundation of the power of the
Governor depended upon his privilege of suspending any
act or appointment until it had received the sanction of
the Crown. He came next to the constitution of the
general legislature. By far the most defective part of
our North American colonial legislatures was the elec-
tive councils.—(ilear.) At one time Legislative Coun-
cils were renewable at the pleasure of the Crown, but
the act of 1791 made them elected for life. It was ab-
surd to call such councils a copy or imitation of our
House of Lords; there was no similarity between the
two legislatures. It was, hoivever, at first intended by
the act of 1791 to make those councils resemble the
House of Lords by creating hereditary honours. It
was not intended that they should be a small oligarchy,
dependent on the will of the Crown; but circumstances
at the time were too strong for Mr. Pitt, and no heredi-.
tary honours had been created. The Legislative Coun-
cils had become a mere body of nominees. Ia fact,
Legislative Councils were universally regarded in
Cam da as the great obstacle to good Government; and
nottneg so much tended to bring about that uubappe
state of thiegs which led to insurrection in Canada than
tlae.e councils. The question then was, how had Legisla-
tire Cohneils worked? He was bouni to say, according
to his experience, they had not worked satisfactorily iu
North America. The reason why they had not worked
satisfactorily was, because on many occasions those
Councils had not had sufficient weight with the public,
or as they ought to have possessed, iu order to render
them properly useful; and the consequence of that had
been the necessity of making large additions to them, so
that, to use the Noble Duke's expression, they had more
than once been swamped. The present Bill, in its ori-
ginal shape, would have worked injuriously in this par-
ticular respect; for if a mistake had been made at the
onset in the nomination, it would have been competent
for a few individuals to have obstructed or defeated any
beneficial or useful measure which the colonists and the
law. Crown I mighttw oe
would
haveave approvedteen
been o f e
eacneds desiredsary
to
o thoa
pass
again again to parliament, and the only way to meet such a
state of things-was by giving to the Crown large discre-
tionary powers to make such additions to those bodies as
might be considered requisite. He begged the
Nubia Earl, on account of the importance of the sub-
ject, to do him the favour to pay a little attention to his
statements.
The Earl of DERBY—I do assure the Noble Earl I
ared
darmessseodrrytoto
the
ey
HI
ohesaevedehreiaergd
tehveeryleawt ohrelourhae
ehdasth
quarters.—(Laughter.)
Earl GREY—Then the Noble .Earl has the enviable
quality of listening to a discourse and of carrying on an
interesting conversation at the same time, without losing
a word of either conversation or discourse.—(Laughter.)
The NOBLE Eana resumed—lt was inconvenient to
withdraw respectable men from the assembly in order
that they might enter the Legislative Council. He
considered it was better they should sit singly than be
mixed, as that would not add to their weight and
authority. He
would advert to another important
point—the appropriation of the land fund. He woul i
not repeat the opinion he had more than once ex-
pressed, that it was the duty of Parliaraant to lay
down some rule as to the disposal of waste lands
in some of ,our more important colonies. But no
such rule had been laid down in Canada, Nova
Scotia, and, latterly, in the West India colonies. The
subject had been entirely legislated upon by the colonial
legislatures—the colonial legislatures had passed Acts,
and had taken the whole matter upon themselves. In
the New Zealand Bill there appeared to be powers
which permitted the local legislatures to legislate on the
matter. He feared the system under the Bill would
lead to jobbing and abuse. It appeared to him that the
power would uo better if given to individual provinces
than to the general legislature, because one settlement
might desire to make regulations and prices which an-
other settlement might object to. By delegating the
application of the money derived from the sale of waste
lands to the general legislature instead of to the local
councils, he feared that much abuse would arise. Ho
entirely concurred in the concluding observations of
his Noble Friend behind him when he said, that
this was a most important crisis in the affairs of our
colonial empire, and that much would depend upon
the course of legislation now pursued. He adopted
phrase of his Noble Friend, that many of our
colonies were " growing up to manhood," and
that it was now necessary to carry out that
scheme of policy which would have been proper oven
in an earlier stage of their social progress. But
this policy ought to be carried out, not by separating
from the old and established system hitherto pursued by
this country—none of the constitutional powers hitherto
possessed by the Crown ought to be abandoned—but the
Government ought carefully to exercise the existing
powers. It was with some degree of pride that he found
the North American colonies in their present position of
prosperity. In 1846 they were in a different condition,
and they had to surmount difficulties of no ordinary na-
ture before they attained their present state. Until 1846
not one of these colonies enjoyed the system of govern-
ment now established, and at present working successfully
and harmoniously. In Canada we had seen the two
races of men divided, and with no general agreement
as to the form of government under which they were to
'live, and that great and distinguished man expressed his
greatest doubt as to whether the system would work in
that colony. But in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and
Prince Edward's Island, the systems of local govern-
ment had been carried into complete and satisfactory
operation. In Canada we had now the aspect of a united
pptierueonvpilmoenu,d:e: apparent
and English acting harmoniously
together, and regarding the mother country with affec-
ncorylonofy awnansexma.aintkiong greater
thehandealetnhiyirwelays
disappeared,the feeling,
athnacit the
rea pressure t
er
progress
of political
in
population
discontent
aed
previously
wealth than any of the neighbouring
Tremenhere, in an interesting book recently
staes;
published,and Mr.
took precisely this view of the subject. The
possessed all the legal power necessary for dealing with
the colonies, and, as far as their welfare was concerned, r rtnh
it was only necessary that it should be exercised with
judgment and discretion.

Curd LYTTELTON thought it desirable to separate
the Canterbury Association from the Canterbury Co-
lony.—(flear, hear.) The Canterbury Association
might have been involved in some difficulty, but as
tar as the colony was concerned he was prepared to
contend, that in the same space of time no other settle-
ment had attained so great a degree of prosperity,

After a few words in explanation from the Dake of
NEWCASTLE,
The Bill vial read a second time.

The County Rites Bill was read a second time.
The Sunk Island Roads Bill, the COMMOII3 Enclosures
Act Extension Bill, tho Ap!?ointmont of Overseers Bill,
and the Hereditary Casual Revenues in the Colonies all,
were severally psssed through Committee,
The Poor-law Commission Continuance (Ireland)
Bill was read a third time cod passed.
Their Lordships then adjourned.