The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-27 00:00:00

AMEN T.

breech, produced by seven different makers. But
all those muskets had failed. They could no lorser be
worked after they had been tried for twenty rounds, in con-
sequence of an escape of gas, or cf some derangement
in the fixed machinery • and yet they had been made of the
very best materials. Since that time various other inven-
tions had appeared—there were, fur instance, the muskets of
the Chasseurs de Vincennes, which he understood had re-
cently been supplanted by the Miele muskets. Those lat-
ter arms had been tried at Woolwich, and had there been
found to succeed. But he believed that we ought not has-
tily to adopt any of those improvements. Complaints had
been made of the great weight of our muskets and of the
great incovenience which they caused to our soldiers; and
it had been said that a musket with a small bore would be
as effective as a musket with a large one. But the Noble
Duke the Commander-in-Chief had always maintained very
strongly, and had told him over and over again, that he felt
indebted in a great measure for the success of his armies in
foreign countries to the weight and the siae of the bore in
our muskets. He (General Anson) found that the French
were endeavouring to make their muskets of as large a bore
as ours, and they felt satisfied of the greater efficiency of
our muskets. He would not say that we were
bound to adhere to the size of our bore ; for it was at
present ascertained that the weight of the ball was all
that was required, and that, although the bore might not
be as large as formerly, it would be as efficient a 9 ever if it
were to carry the same weight of lead. Attacks had been
daily been directed against the Government for not having
r taken that subject into their serious consideration. And he
would venture to say that there was not at this moment an
army in Europe, or in the world, that could beat our troops
with their present arms. He was satisfied that, although
they might not load so quickly, and although they might
not have so deadly an aim at five or six hundred yard, as
the troops of some other countries —he was satisfied that,
with their present arms in their hands, they would be found
superior to any other soldiers in the world. He should
observe that it would be ridiculous to suppose that two
armies could fight at a distance of five or six hundred yards.
Much more depended on the discipline of the troops than on
anything else. They had been told they did not give suffi-
cient ammunition practice to their troops; but if the troops
made use of the quantity of ammunition given them, small
though it was, there could be no cause of complaint. He
entirely agreed with Hon. Gentlemen who said this country
should keep at peace with other nations. He more than agreed
with them, because he thought this country was bound to
set the example.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir W. CLAY was glad to find the possibility acknow-
ledged of obtaining something less cumbrous for the soldiery
than the musket now in use.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to
call the attention of the Committee to one matter, namely,
that when the military were furnished with better arms,
they should be practised in the use of them.—(Hear, hear. )
At present, the allowance of ball cartridge for practice was
only thirty rounds per man per annum, or little more than
one opportunity of firing one shot at a mark in every fort-
night.—(Hear, hear.) As to the bravery of the Britsh
troops, there could be no second opinion, but then the autho-
rities would be greatly to blame if they left everything to the
gallantry and discipline of the troops without properly arming
them also.—(Hear, hear.) The House and the authorities
were bound to see that in return for his bravery, the soldier
should have the very best arms with which to defend himself.
Mr. F. MAULE was glad to find that the opinion re-
garding the inefficiency of the arms used by the British
troops had fallen off very much, However, from what had
been stated by the Hon. Gentleman who last addressed the
House. it was clear the impression was not altogether
removed. He (Mr. F. Manic) was of opinion that a better
description of arm than that used at present was not as
yet found ; and, therefore, he hoped the House would not
be led away by reports of new inventions and modern inno-
vations. Of course he had no objection that a portion of
their regiments should be equipped with this new arm ; but
that the whole force should be supplied with it, he hoped
would not take place If it should—apart from the expense
and caution attending it their arms might oalculate on
more reverses than victories. A ith regard to ball practice,
he should say that in order to perfect the troops in that
branch of their duty it was necessary they should have places
set apart for the exercise, which they had not at present,
seeing the localities in which their barracks were situated.
He thought it would be a great improvement if such places
were procured ; but as to the general condition of their
troops, be believed ho might say they never possessed a more
efficient army than at present.—(hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE could assure the House that the Master
General of Ordnance was using the greatest possible caution
in reference to the adoption of the newly-improved arm, and
also that it was not the intention to arm the whole army
with that description of fire-arm.— (Hear, hear.) The
Master General had also directed his attention to the matter
of. ball practice, and would do everything in his power to
improve it.--(Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 449 oeB/. for works, buildings, and repairs,
Mr. IJUME called attention to the expenditure in the
Channel Islands, and suggested that a survey cf the works
now in progress at Jersey and Alderney should be made. lii
his opinion they were only throwing thousands into the sea.
Ile had also to complain that a sum of 45,0001. had been ex-
pended at Portsmouth, on the authority of the Secretary of
State, but not authorised by Parliament.
Colonel DUNNE said he would make inquiry into the
subject.
General ANSON said the works were commenced on the
express recommendation of the committee of ordnance esti-
mates, and he hoped the House would agree to works that
had been already sanctioned.
Mr. HUME thought the Secretary of State, except in
cases of emergency, should not be authorised to commence
the erection of fortifications without the previous sanction of
Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
General ANSON— These works had the deliberate con-
sideration of the Government. But of course the House can
now reject them if it should please.
Mr. WALPOLE said all that had been done was this.
Before the estimate was submitted to Parliament sanction
had been given to the proposal of the estimate, but not to
its adoption by the Secretary of State, with a view that its
should be subsequently submitted to the consideration
of the House.—(Hear, hear.) That was all that had
been done.
General ANSON—No works are commenced until sanc-
tioned by this House.
Mr. HUME could state that evidence existed to prove
the very opposite.
Mr. WYLD hoped some attention would be given to the
defenceless state of the coast from Bristol southward.
Colonel DUNNE replied the Master General had his at-
tention already directed to that portion of the coast.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 107,9071. for the scientific branch of the
ordnance,
Mr. WYLD hoped the officers in general and military
students would be engaged in the work of surveying. It
was the case in all the armies of Europe with the exception
of the English.
Sir D. NORREYS hoped the one-inch map, which was
found to be of great value in Ireland, would be speedily pub•
lished.
After a few words from Mr. EWART and Mr. CHAR-
TERIS,
Colonel DUNNE said the six-inch map, now completed,
was about to be reduced to one inch, which would be found
very beneficial to Ireland, particularly as regarded geolo-
gical purposes. He should be -happy to support any measure
which would tend to improve the scientific education of the
officers of the army.
General ANSON thought it would be very desirable that
these maps should be rendered more generally available to
the public, and sold at a rate which would produce some-
thing to the Exchequer.
CHARTERIS said the Committee had examined a
number of engineers and other persons, who had given it as
their opinion that the six-inch scale was too large for prac-
tical purposes, and that the one-inch scale would be the
most advisable to adopt. The saving, by adopting the latter
scale, would be about 500,000/.
Sir D. NORREYS said all the persons who had con-
sidered the subject in Ireland were of opinion that the six-
inch scale was the best for practical purposes. It would be
easy to reduce the large to the small scale, but it would be
impossible to enlarge the small scale if the survey was ever
made upon the one-inch scale.
Mr. COWAN said he had the honour of serving
on the
Committee, and the evidence in favour of the one-inch scale
was overwhelming. There was a prospect now of ttchiesscuarle-
vey being completed in ten years, but if the six-in
was adhered to it would not be completed for half-a-century.
After a few words from Mr. HOME,
Colonel DUNNE said no d.outbts
a thbeutsi
found very convenient for proprietors,
tended for their exclusive benefit. 251;innecliVerscivalaes win!
The vottch we expensees then
oo g rf ee
the dto , vote of 1m72i1,345a6ry
and civil./.
to
defray
noneffectivesalsoa
iat establishment.tio H
one that
ob-
ar
Mr. HAMILTON then moved a vote of 447,602/. to defray
the charges of the commiss
consider able
'a that there was anincrease of
of last year, notwithstanding
reduc n
served that the vote was
in which that colony was
the particular circumstances
49,776 k in the vote for the Cape of Good Hope, owing to
placed, and an
en of a v deot.
additional vote of 6,2761. for Western Aus-
tralia, for the establishm
half-pay pensions-and allowances of the commissariat esta-
The vote was then agreed to, ascon wa ict
s also 43,
blishment. 599/. for the
The House then resuCmed.
EXHEQUER-BILLS.
he House resolve
Mr. HAMILTON then moved th
00a be raised for the
the Hon. Member moved that 17,.
itself into Committee of Ways aVoMelnst,
service of the yearly
rate of interest on Exche-
Mr. HUME inquired as to thewhich being done
public had a right to expect?
Mr. (1 Vssl.),
saidxpec believed it was the lowest rate
perth ecmenwt
he•
Mr. HAMILTON he
which het believed to be higher than the
possible.
that the bills wouldsell
to lower very well
he believed
Mr. HUME said that money never was so low as it was at
present, and
.• by private
• The Government had to raise the price of the bills
arties.
when money n money
ia3t Id., for cavipasitadleacor,t7ndboeughhatd
was cheap.
Alderman THOMPSON agreed that the publi •
c ought to
have money as cheap as possible,
but also thought that it
was very inconvenient to vary the rate of interest on Exche-
quer bills too often .—(Hear, (Hear, hear.) Nothing
to have Exchequer bills at a discount, was worse than
Bills of exchange might v or even at par.
rates, but they ran for very likely be obtainable at low
If the late Chancellor shorter periods than Exchequer Bills.
of the Exchequer had reduced the rate
of interest some time since the result had shown that he
might safely have
risk, and it done so; still there would have been a
thought was always a nice and delicate question, and he
that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer had
acted most prudently in • not taking such a step.
Mr. HUME said the • bills were now at a premium of 775.,
and he did not think it was right to have such interest. On
the
bringing up of the report he should bring the subject
forward again.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the House resumed.
MUTINY BILL.
Mr. BERESFORD moved the second reading of the Mu-
tiny Bill.—Agreed to.
Mr. HAMILTON moved the Marine Mutiny Bill, which
also passed that stage.
COPYRIGHT LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. HENLEY moved the report on this Bill, which was
received and agreed to.
ST. ALBAN'S DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
APPREHE sISION OF DESERTERS BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. ANSTEY rose to oppose it. He said it was a Bill to
enable her Majesty to, carry into effect arrangements with
ion sof deser
ters
from foreign powers for the appreheu •
rters
from ships coming to this country, The
preamble stated
that such arrangements had been concluded. With what
powers? Perhaps with the Czar of
Russia. Some years
ago several Polish sailors deserted from a Russian
of war, and escaped to this country, where the ship
they were pro-
tected against pursuit. Such was the sort of case to which
this Bill would apply, and in which the
would be delivered up to what might unfortunate men
often be certain death.
If such " arrangements had been mad
re-
ferred to, they were disgraceful to this e as the preamble
these "foreign Wa
powers?" _s country. Who were
usurper
9ta_w Austria_ one, or the present
n ; m uaducourmt Lehi out t 9

lead tel to assent to such en arrangement ? These " powers,"
it appeared, had promised to carry out corresponding ar-
rangements as to the desertions of our own sailors in foreign
ports. But the terms were not equal. For in this country
the deserter would have a fair trial; on the continent he
would find no law at all, but arbitrary power. The " ar-
rangements" alluded to, then, were de graceful and scan-
dalous; and whoever had entered into them ought to be
punished. It would be said that the measure merely referred
to merchant ships; but it was clear that it also referred to
ships of war, from the phrase" belonging to foreign powers,
which was to be found in one of the clauses. Was this
country, then, to become the gaoler of the Holy Alliance—
not for the purpose of immuring Napoleon—(he wished we
had him now ; he meant Napoleon the Little, in place of Na-
poleon the Great) -but fur the punishment of such wretched
slaves of foreign despots who endeavoured here to exchange
their condition for that of freemen in this land of liberty. It
was an extradition Bill, and most unconstitutional and dis-
creditable. He moved that it be read a second time that
day six months.
Lord D. STUART, in seconding the amendment, said cer-
tainly it would be beneficial to the commerce of the country
to have the power of preventing the desertion of our mer-
chant seamen in foreign ports.- (Hear, hear.) And if the
Bill only referred t i merchant vessels, it could not be ob-
jectionable. But he believed it referred to ships of war;
and it was in truth an act of extradition, by which this
country would become the tool of foreign despotism; and
it countenanced the rumours current that the sympathies
of the present Government were with absolutism. The NW
men of foreign ships of war were not, like ours, voluntarily
enlisted, but were compelled to enter into the service. This
was the case with the Poles in the case referred to, who
had been told they were going to Kamchatka, and fancied
this country was Kamschatka—( Laughter)—but having
once found out what it was, resolved to remain here. BY
passing such a Bill as this, they might conciliate despotic
powers abroad, but they would assuredly shock the feelings
of the people of this country. By letting such a Bill find
its way to the statute-book they would be doing nothing
more nor less than making themselves the humble servants
of cruel foreign Governments, and be doing their dirty work
for them.
Mr. HENLEY said it was not his intention to follow the
example of the Noble Lord and the Hon. and Learned Mme
ber for Youghal, who, whilst they deprecated delay, wer
themselves causing obstruction by making speeches ill
which they travelled from all sorts of places, from IKaras:
chatka to this country, without urging anything really to the
point at issue.—(Hear.) He must first tell the Noble Lord
that this Bill was prepared by the late Government in con-
sequence, as he (Mr. Henley) believed, of the very general
complaint made by the owners of merchant ships in this
country, as to the inconveniences arising from the desertion
of their seamen at foreign ports. At present there was n°
power on the part of foreign ports to render any assistance ill
getting these seamen back, and we could not ask the assiAt-
since of foreigners without giving them an equivalent. The,
doctrine that a man as soon as he set foot on this soil sho till
not be delivered up applied just as much in his opinion- to
merchants' ships as Queen's ships.
Lord D. STUART—In the one case there is no bargain-
Mr. HENLEY—There was no bargain, but still it was de-
sirable to assimilate the two cases. If Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite thought it desirable to deprive her Majesty ofthe
advantage of getting back seamen who had deserted from
Queen's ships, let them pursue their object. The board over
which he presided had felt it to be their duty to embrace
merchant ships : it would be for the House of Commons to
deal with the Queen's ships. The main alteration he Isad
made in the Bill was in conformity with the Portuguese Act,
and provided that a person could not be apprehended except
on information upon oath. (Hear, hear.) If the Honse
chose to make the words particular instead of general, he
had no objection, but he certainly thought it advisable
the t
extend the same powers to Queen's ships.disc
He thong
House might have been spared the very unnecesssry
play of declamation they had heard from the Noble ord.'s
but it sometimes happened that those who were loudest in
their task about liberty were not its best champions. .
ht o
Mr. HUME should be contented if the Bill were confeaen
to merchantmen. It was of the first importance that we
should not lose the 'vantage ground which the Nobl
Grp'
lately at the head of the foreign department (Lord
villa) had declared he would secure for political offenderg..
~
Colonel THOMPSON opposed the Bill. lie th0n.413!
things had come to a pretty pass in this country if we ni uns!
follow the example of Belgium, Switzerland, and Piecherbo t;
in demanding the extradition of those foreigners who tscL
made themselves obnoxious to their Governments on account
of their political opinions.
Them eCtilienANbCefEerLeLtOhße
HofetnhaeeEwXasCillerEtQhUe
sEeßeenobdsteeravdi
observed thaw
the had
the Bill, and any al eraalterations must be reserved until t
passed that stage. The Hon. Member for Montrose heti
misstated the origin of this Bill, which had not been franl.
in deference to the wishes or dictation of foreign powers, b I
out of regard to the necessities of the English Government.ti
—(Hear, hear.) It originated with an English Govearnmbeenen
and was intended for English purposes, and it a
framedview„
Tinhetrhee
Portugal, therere it was necessary to procepi ny 7_l:7_
wmearennneer
treaties
alikneliytb teotneeffreecetutbhteri.ehobj:;_te2ist,
clahtaiennt.—selm Hear,seamen
d i
ffi hear)calte a And
lidf thebe tßb irlel
wevne were limited
t ne w
saiydt oen: r_t
it
main object. Although perfectly willing to con
.. t!ri,
the Bill its very purpose would be defeated.—(Hear, h
._)0,..
epnrtel
seemnetr: ,
bhye
rwimouitlidringotthpeleodpgeerah_titeomanrs;.; f
StOUgtgheSeitri°oASOpotifoHn.on'AGt
man LortdbePcAbLanreSr Te?gesaEidnetbheacitutehre
bßaidghitn Hon.m eGdeengletto. ,
beeircerersdtapncalems oeitiatteonf) winhfiecrrhedthtibsiaßißllilletand;
I h ent of an intention on the part o f
be only sate. ac comp is re
nec'ed with jeavl leasti the
received some time in November an application from Übe
her Maj.yb'stbliaateßGillovweernremetnhte.se. ThTebecirlcautme circumstances
mc oenn.l-
-
Sweditsyh
wGiotvberrengmaerdntt,eastlehiengsuthrreelilndteor ceofncsleuedmeewni,tshimSiwlaerdetne
a trea
that entered into with Portugal in 1842. stipulatieen
in the treaty with Portugal was to the effect,The that each a
the two parties agreed not to retain in the service thaw
Thereeserters from ships of war, but to discharge
was no engagement, however, as to the " surrender '
of such parties; but the treaty further stipulated that all
magistrates, consuls, and others should afford every facility in
their power for the apprehension of deserters from merchant_
vessels, the subjects of other powers. It was an engagement of
that sort that the Government of Sweden desired. Under
the circumstances, his Right Hon. Friend the then Pons)
dent of the Board of Trade, with his (Lord Paltnerston
concurrence, instead of entering into formal treaties, which
were invariably the subject of delay, deemed it most c
hpna.
venient and most prudent to propose a measure to
Paraeo
ment giving the Crown, by order in Council or oth. _
power to enter into arrangements with other powers t erow the
same
reexeetnent tßasillwwiaath
tPraormteudgainl.
eennefoprmreistuymewdi,ththetrbeeforwe,iathh;
tent he though the Bill expedient; but the psee
so expressed by the late Board of Trade. Tore elicht
maenaseuXie
Lord Pal--
went beyond the limit to which, at all events, h
consideration of the Government whether it wo
0..
the no
merston) was a party; and he ventured to suggn(ldt ttei)etthb:
advisable in Committee to make the provisioi?s t
with Portugal. The matter would then s
mutuald
for the
titer© would be no arrangement
identical with the stipulations contained in
stand
de ttrheantsef.
spective parties would agree not
t vessels would noV
deserters; and deserters from merchan
surrender of deserters from a ship' but the
euree;
rehending thew.
every facility in the way of app
from a ship-or-via,
occurred last summer of a deserter
be delivered up, but magistrates and
.others wouldA geasoiere.
Con.
Government in an ernbarrassin
g Pesi 'lned there a con--
frigate came to Portsmouth, and remai
the
vessel,
in con--
which, if this Bill had been law, wou.ld have
AplaTceudrktihststO
siderable time. A person attached to
ship, and escaped into the streets o
bad tog o into Hasler
sequence of illness, however, the man
been exceedinglyunplea-
sequence of some dispute with othfer_arerotnembeonatbrd., %teeth::
Hospital. Now it would have
le it vas not very likely
ship had returned to Constantinop
f nower r
Te dor° we e
sant to have had to deliver that,
this party would have been on bo
and a laugh.) Ile
reached their destination .—(Hear, hear,
dolling the Bill on the Portuguese treaty.
en to the Govern-
armdanupll; wfohrenit ththey°
t re.consider its
nthoowugrheatdaallseccoomnamteirmciea: oitbjewcotusldwobueleobpelartabineedßiblyi
wine%
ment to consider whether they would no
details.—(Hear, hear.)
made on the Governments of foroigncepvo
pw , i
thwhichHOWAßD
they
e ph raleiltdsenoav:aTe
c!dshtnietvechreceivedtitmte,
been
theircekastsbe e h
character
ecro Doi
sileinirc.e
demnation. He thought derogatory
mowi
ft
would
opinion
.drn i
bo en (Not
Parliament to suffer sucha
PSO - )hat the
thege Billa:fri.t
a
Aldermane
mercantile interests .
without this i .
neglected
to
changed positively
of late. Our mer-
tion had been very.eog
e dto San F •
rancisco lost their crew"
chant ships Pwed for months •
te:Bda.thiseleecNotunw:armys
and were away
in whilst foreign vessels pur-
d their
way in safety. He should like to see the pro-.
sue- Marine Shi •
visions of the prang Act applied to merchant
sailors.
RUSSELL hoped the Bill would be read a second
Lord J.
gh he concurred with the Hon. Member for
time, althou
Montrose that the object of it should be more fully set forth
in the preamble. Objections might be taken to certaia
powers; but he deemed the Bill to be of so much importance
to the commercial marine of th trusted
e cou . ntry that he
there might be a sett f s actory adjustment of details.
Mr. T. D'EYNCOURT asked for informs'more explicit
tion as to the scope of the Bill. It would be discreditable
to pass a measure with respect to the provisions of which
there could be any doubt.
Mr. THORN ELY said that as the law now stood, if
slaves belonging to a Brazilian vessel landed on our shores
they became free; but the question would arise, in case this
Bill passed, should we not be compelled to place them on
board again as African slaves.
Lord D. STUART—To be sure we should.
Mr. AGLIONBY regretted that the Government had
.not
more explicitly stated their intentions before going into
Committee. He would vote for the second reading, but
would give his opposition to the Bill in Committee, if there_
were not an exemption made in it in reference to men of

war. Yv
Mr. RICE concurred in the observations made by the
Noble Lord the Member for Tivertoa, and would vote for the
second reading.
Mr. FORSTER said that nobody objected to the application
of the Bill to merchant ships, but they objected to its going
beyond that.
Mr. GOULBURN said that as they were all agreed that •
some measure should be passed on the subject,
be thought
the rational course was to agree to the second reading.
Mr. WALPOLE said that the object of the Gover
entered int nmeno,
t
was simply to carry out certain arrangenients
with foreign powers on the subject of desertion. Whatever!
those arrangements were they were stipulated for in that
treaties entered into with Portugal and Sweden. It seemed:
to him that there would be no necessity. for inserting in tb's
preamble the arrangements alluded to in the Bill, as ther
were perfectly well known. The Hon. Member for Wolver-
hampton (Mr. Thornely) seemed to think that slaves in a ,
Brazilian ship should be delivered up if h
tis ill were adopted.
There was, however, nothing whatever in B
the Bill that ap-
plied to such a case. It only applied to seamen deserting
their ships —( Hear.)
Mr. TEIORSIELY said that if they restored a man who,.
had been a slave, he would remain a slave far life.
After a few word from Mr. J. BELL,
Sir A. COCKBURN would venture to suggest that pow
should be given to a magistrate to take into consideration t
circumstances under which the desertion takes pace.
might, for instance, be occasioned by ill-treatment, vb.
would justify inch desertion.
Mr. ANSTEY said if the Ministers would pledge the
selves to take the proposed alterations into their conside
tion, and that they would draw a distinction between Si'
chant ships and those in the service of a foreign Governrat
he would not press his amendment.
Mr. WALPOLE said he wished simply to carry into ET
the the treaty of Portugal and the other arrangements concu
in by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Mr. ANSTEY having withdrawn his amendment tlie 131

was read a second time.
e
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose to exain the obi, tom'
of this Bill befozo the Docile vent CoCmalittct/