The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

-
DEBATE.
DOIFL
LC.LOAMD/lr
J.l.oolll,NitErEoLy 4.
THE M "I
MILITIA TUISAE
Mr. GII
(ContinuedAs r from our F
BERKELEYo ur t hs
aEi
dd i thi
eo n .
never)
saw
the Opposition benches so chapfallen as they then were.
The only jolly appearance evinced by them in the pro-
ceedings of last night was made by the Lion. Member
forFinsbury (Mr. Wakley), who, with a naivete peculiar
to himself, asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
agree to the postponement of the debate, because he in-
tended to offer the measure every opposition in his
power.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire said that, with the exception of the
question of free-trade, there was no question that suited
him so well to go to the country with as the present. It
appeared; then, that the Hon. Gentleman must always
have a political grievance; for, if he had none, his poli-
tical life would become a nonentity.—(Laughter.) He
should like to know how these petitions, which they had
heard so much spoken of, were obtained. How was it
that his county, which was one of considerable import-
ance,_ had never sent him a petition to present against
the Bill? The great manufacturing towns, in which
the Honourable Member had so much power, were
the only places from which these petitions emanated.
The Honourable Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright),
when speaking
.on this subject, like Bob Acres, felt
his courage oozing out of his finger-ends. That Ho-
nourable Gentleman said that the army and navy
were forgotten at that moment in favour of what he
called the blundering,'; miserable, and undisciplined
horde that would coustitute their militia force. The
House ought to murk well the difference of the lan-
guage used by the Hon. Member when addressing these
persons out of doors. He also said that a political panic
was sometimes got up for the purpose of trading on it.
He (Mr. G. Berkeley) would ask the Hon. Gentleman
whether he did not know of such a panic being got up
for the purpose of exciting the hostility of the people
against the Government; and that language was uttered
on such occasions outside of the House which dared not
bo uttered inside of it.—(Hear, hear.) Why, at the
first gathering of the Anti-Corn-law League there was
language used which was well calculated to excite re-
bellion. The Hon. Member for Manchester last night
was pleased to attach to the Noble Lord the Member
for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) the title of Mrs. Jellaby.
Now he (Mr. G. Berkeley) recollected reading of two
characters described by the same author which he
thought were singularly applicable to the Hon. Member
and the Hon. Member for the West Riding of York-
shire—namely, Unhappy John and Miserable Dick.—
(Laughter.) He would give his support to the passing
of this Bill, which ho was convinced was a most consti-
tutional and appropriate measure to meet the evils com-
plained of.
Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to explain a misap-
prehensi©n that was abroad as to what ho had said on
the second reading of this Bill. What he had then
stated was that there were 80 guns on the peace OSta-
blizhment which might be made available upon an emer-
gency. lie also said that the Marino Artillery had 20
gulls, but without horse s, which also could be made
available. He saw no difficulty in providing them with
horses; so that there could be mustered in all 100 guns
for active service. Sir How Ross had written to him
on the subject of this misstatement, and he now wished
to explain to the House what he really did say upon the
occasion referred to. He then went on tos ay that these
horses might be procured at once, and rendered avail-
able, when an Hon. and Gallant Colonel rather sneered
at the observation by alluding to the probability of those
horses running away when brought into action. Now
ho was speaking practically when ho made that state-
ment, for ho had gone into action himself with horses
collected only two or throe days before from farm-
houses on the road side. He had also stated that the
number of rank and file, including officers, which_
A tight be made available for service, was 58 ,° °
p VIP; that there was also 9,000 of the Ordnance corps

out of 15,000, which were generally at home, and to
these numbers they might add 5,300 marines. He was,
however, told that he ought not to compute the officers,
the non-commissioned officers and the band. Ho wanted
to know why they should not bo included in the Lowe
which constituted a combatant army? If he had made
these deductions he would IR, compelled to make similar
deductions from the army of the enemy. As yet he (Sir
do Lacy Evans) had said nothing about the 13,000
mounted yeomanry in this country. He considered,
however, that they were a very good force, and believed
that they would pro►e very troublesome customers in the
flank and rear of an invading army. With regard to the
French army, they were not, as had been stated,
400,000. The French estimates showed that they were
369,000, and from that number was to be deducted
70,000 men for Algiers; so that here at once were
100,000 men struck off this reputed force of 400,000.
Then, again, if ho followed the practice which was
adopted with reference to the estimates for our ovn
army, he should have to deduct from the remaining
300,000 the officers, non-commissioned officers, drum-
mers, and trumpeters—and these stood as follows:—
Officers, 16,000; non-commissioned officers, 22,500; and
drummers and trumpeters, 23,000. In the next place,
he must deduct 21,000 gens d'armes, who were
a sort of local police force, and not available for an in-
vading expedition. But if they were to bo taken as
forming part of the army, he saw no reason why we
should not also count the 10,000 or 12,000 police in Ire-
land, who were better soldiers, in his opinion, than any
troops the French could bring against us. Allowing,
therefore, these deductions, and others on account of the
sick-list, the French army would be reduced to 200,000
men. Did Hon. Gentlemen think, however, that the
whole even of this force was available for any sudden
exigency ? No such thing. Fur of that number 100,000
men would be required for the garrison towns, and still
leave the important forts of Strasburg, Belfort, Metz,
Lille, and other places, without a garrison; and if all
these were properly garrisoned, he did not think 30,000
men could be sent as an invading force against this couu-
' try. With regard to the measure of her Majesty's
Ministers, he thought the force it proposed to raise was
a delusive force, that the Militia Bill of the late Govern-
ment was a less objectionable measure, and that in the
present state of the public mind a much more substan-
tial and effective addition might be made to our national
defences. As to war with France he did not think there
was the least probability of such an event occurring.
The fact was that since the year 1848 the French had
gone on reducing their army, and whereas it numbered
in that year 502,000 men, it was now but 369,000, so
that the amount of reduction in three years only was not
less than 132,000 men.

Mr. BERESFORD observed, that the original state-
ment upon the subject of the army we could bring into
the field was made by the Home S.cretary, who, cot
without due consideration, and desirous to state the
highest amount available, placed it at 25,000, The Hon.
and Gallant Member (Sir D. L. Evans) placed it at
85,000; that included the officers, whom it was not
usual to reckon in official returns, but this could easily
be allowed for. The Hon. and Gallant Member in-
cluded the army in Ireland; the late Prime Minister the
other night excluded that from the force available for the
defence of Great Britain, and stated that no man re-
sponsible for the government of this country or for the
defence of Ireland would withdraw a man from Ireland
in ease of invasion here; and in that he (Mr. Beresford)
agreed, and should exclude the 21,000 rank and file i❑
Ireland. The same reason would apply to the armed
police—a most efficient force, raised from the lower
classes there irrespective of creed, proving that Irish-
men might be trusted with arms and relied upon in the
case of need.—(Hear, bear.) But if that force was
necessary in Ireland now, in time of peace, it would be
equally necessary there in case of invasion.—(Hear,
hear.) There would be a great difficulty in bring-
ing over from Ireland the pensioners, of whom nearly
6,000 were in that country ; they would make
excellent troops in well chosen positions, but
they were not troops of such activity as would
make it desirable to remove them hero and bring
them into the field. Then, leaving out the Irish force,
we should have in England 39,172 men. That included
5,029 cavalry; but the southern portion of England was
not that description of country where cavalry would be
exceedingly available to repel an invasion. Deducting
the cavalry, therefore, there would remain 34,143 in-
fantry, artillery, sappers and miners, and foot guards.
Now, on an average of six regiments in this country and
Ireland, it was found that, including recruits at drill,
there were about 205, or nearly one-fourth of the esta-
blishment, non-efficient; deducting the recruits (at this
moment very numerous) it was only 142, or ene-eixth;
one-fifth would be a fair deduction to make to find the
number that could be brought into the field effective,
and this would reduce the available infantry and artil-
lery to 27,314. Now, the Hon. and Gallant Member
was severe upon the Right Hon. Member for South
Wilts for taking upon himself to sketch the distribution
of the army, but he (Mr. Beresford) must do it. He
could not mention higher authority than that of the
Noble and Gallant Duke commanding the army, the
Noble and Gallant Officer at the head of the ordnance,
and the Gallant Officer at the head of the engineers.
The highest amounts of force which they respec-
tively calculated as necessary in case of invasion,
for holding arsenals and ports, were 33 000
infantry and artillery, 30,000, and 28,000. Taking
the last of these estimates, there would be required
for Jersey, Guernsey, and Alderney, 5,000 men; for the
Thames, including Sheerness, Tilbury, the Tower,
Deptford, Woolwich, 8,000 men; for Dover and its
dependencies, 2,000; fur Portsmouth, 5.000; and for
Plymouth, 5,000; for Pembroke and other detached
places, 3,000. Addins, the pensioners to the artillery
and infantry, an available force would be made up of
34,280 rank and file; and, deducting 28,000, the force
necessary for the defence of the arsenals and ports, there
would remain of infantry and artillery available for other
purposes 6,280 rank and file. There remained the
cavalry, which would not be so efficient a force to meet
an enemy in the southern part of England ou account of
the enclosures; adding 4,023 cavalry and 261 sappers
and miners to the 6,280 infantry, there would be 10,564
rank and file to meet an invading force. It must be al-
lowed that 10,500 men did not constitute a proper and
available force to meet an invasion. How, then, it would
be asked, would you make up an available force? He
would reply, by this very militia. By the existence of
such a force they would be enabled to hold the garrisons
and forts to which he had referred. The militia, whom
some called a rabble, were Eeglishmtn, fit with
the addition of soldiers, to maintain those places.
They were an available force of infantry for that pur-
pose; and it was to get a proper and available force for
the field that the militia was desirable. If the Noble
Lord the late First Minister of the Crown found out in
April that there were 90,000 or 100,000 men available
for the defences of the country, why did he not make
the discovery in January or February, when he was
digesting a Militia Bill? It could not be supposed that
it was necessary for him to go into Opposition to ascer-
tain the available force at the service of the Government.
The Hon. Member for Richmond suggested another and
larger view; he made his force 200,000 men.
Mr. RICH remarked that the force he stated was that
which might be available if the additions he suggested
wore mode.

Mr. BERESFORD would acknowledge in that case
that the militia would be useless. But it was not an
ideal force that was wanted. He would not have it said
that this was not a military nation. Where was the
country whose soldiers showed more devotion as well as
suoordination? Those men who, on board the Birken-
head, did not flinch amid the terrors of the vasty deep,
would not fail amid the excitement of the b ittleefield.
It had been said that one great source of safety to
the country would be this difficulty of disembarkation;
and that in Montego Bay, which took ten days,
had been cited. It did not appear why, because that
disembarkation took ten days, a disembarkation on the
English coast should take ten days. First, the French
coast was near; secondly, steam power could be applied;
thirdly, on the disembarkation at Montego Bay there
was a heavy surf. One would think the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member (Sir D. L. Evans) was not aware (the Hen.
and Gallant Member, ho was sure, however, was aware)
of a disembarkation made in 1814 in North America,
when an army under General Roses landed in one day,
the 19th of August, commenced its march on the 20th,
marched on the 21st, 22d, and 23d, and, having marched
60 miles, fought on the 24th an action and gained a vic-
tory. That would show that it was not very difficult for an
English army to disembark in one day; and he trusted
that the Hon. and Gallant Member had not forgotten the
services rendered by Lieutenant Evans as Quartermaster
General on that occasion—had not forgotten his own
services. The practice of the Hon. and Gallant Member
seemed better than his theory, his action in the field than
his counsel in the Senate. In the same year a disem-
darkation took place near New Orleans, which began
at six in the morning; 4,500 men were landed by
twelve o'clock, and engaged in action, after a march
of seven miles, at four P.M. If English troops
could disembark in so short a space, so might
others. He would not enter on the question of an
augmentation of the army, but ho did not believe
that an augmentation could or would be retained. An
addition of 15,000 men, which was not sufficient for the
garrisons, would cost 600,0001. the first year, and
e
525,000/. the second, whereas the whole expense for the
militia, the first year, sould be 350,000/. only. This force
had orco
had received the sanction of the highest
autho-
rities. The old militia papers justified the military
expectation
that a great body of men would enter the service for the
bounty. He could not see why it should be supposed that
men would not be forthcoming in greater numbers than
at the time to which he referred, fur the population had
increased. lie did not think it would bo necessary to
recur to the ballot. Neither did he believe the militia
would interfere with recruiting for the army. Some of
the finest bodies of recruits during the Peninsular war
were sent from the militia. As to the alleged impossi-
bility of making men taken from the plough or loom
good soldiers, he would refer to the rapidity with which,
in 1813, Napoleon, after the loss of his army in Russia,
raised a force in January or the beginning of Fe-
bruary, and, having marched 170,000 of those men
en
the
in
Germany in the month of March, fought and won
following May the battle of Lutzen. With non-commis-
sioned officers from the line the force to be raised would
bo able to do great and glorious work, if necessary. Ho
believed that voluntary service was more likely to create
independence of character among the mon than the con-
scription of the ballot, nor could he admit it was any
hardship to call on people to take Ili? arms in defence of
their homes and their country. That was an obliga-
tion which rested on all citizens, and it was a slur on
Englishmen to say they were opposed to a Bill of this
nature, every clause in which was of a mitigated cha-
racter, brought forward as it had been by the Govern-
ment in the honest desire to do their duty and in the
determination to show they would not leave this country
incapable of defence.—(Hear.)
Mr. MACGREG OR believed the statements of the Ilon.
and Gallant Member (Sir D. L. Evans) would bo cre-
dited generally, not only by this country, but on the
confluent. There wtls np necessity for the Bill before

the House. All the States of Europe bad Leen &rat-
nishing their armies ever since 184 S, under the pressure
of financial embarrassments, and the French nation in
particular had been stated by Marshal Souk to have
become averse to war and military service. If the army
of the country was insufficient for its defence, the people
would demand new estimates. He contended that the
statements made on a former occasion by the Secretary
of the Admiralty were not correct, and that, so far
from being inferior to other States in our naval power,
our fleet was much greater than that of France or Russia,
added to which there was en enormous mercantile
steam navy, capable of defending our shores in
time of peace. Those whom he represented de-
tested the very idea of a number of people
being led away from their homes as volunteers
for a period of four or six weeks, knowing that
it would demoral;z3 them much more than if they
enlisted in the regular army ; and, if there existed a
necessity for au increased military force, it would be far
better at once to increase the regular standing army.
Sir F. BARING was anxious to state why he should
vote against the amendment. The Secretary of the Ad-
miralty had stated that he considered it inconvenient for
the public service to furnish the information called for
by the Hon. Member. He (Sir F. Bating's) own expe-
rience led him to concur in that opinion. He had him-
self on former occasions declined giving returns of a
much less specific nature than those now asked for.
When the department of the Government which W 39 re-
sponsible declined to furnish such returns, it was never
the practice to compel the production of them. These
were just the -returns which an enemy (if there were
any) would be anxious to obtain. He was aware that it
would be said that an enemy could get the same informa-
tion elsewhere. So let him. He admitted that the publi-
city of the press in this country did enable parties abroad
to get a knowledge of the proceedings of the English Go-
vernment which could not be obtained concerning the
proceedings of foreign Governments by us. But let us
not get into the practice of furnishing foreign countries
with every information they were anxious to obtain.
But that was not the main object of the amendment.
The Hon. Member for Manchester frankly stated
last night that he supported the amendment with a views
to get rid of the Bill altogether. He (Sir F. Baring)
voted for the second reading of the Bill. Without en-
tering into the war question, he might observe that be
had concurred with the most eminent military authori-
ties—with the Government of Sir R. Peel, with that of
his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell), and with the pre-
sent Government—as to the inadequacy of our present
military defences. There might be exaggeration in the
statements as to any immediate danger, but the quest
tion really was, whether their defences were sufficient to
secure them against invasion. He admitted that it was
for the interest of every country to keep at peace, and
among the rest that it was for the interest of the Presi-
dent at the head of the French Government to do so;
but he was afraid, judging from the history of the world,
that the argument which the Hon. Member for Man"
chester had urged as to the impossibility of France en-
tertaining the notion of invading this country was scarcely
to be relied on. He would rather have the assurance that
we were in a position to defend ourselves. Even suppos;
ing the return were granted, he could not see what would
be gained by it. With great respect to the Hon. Member
(Mr. Cobden), ha did not believe be would, even then, be
in possession of sufficient knowledge of public affairs to
enable him to judge of what would be a proper distribu-
tion of the British fleet. It was the duty of the Govern-
ment to propose to Parliament the force which they con-
sidered adequate for the protection of the country. 111
was rare indeed that Parliament took upon itself the re-
sponsibility of refusing to grant that force which the
Government required. But when the force had been
granted it was fur the Government to apply it in a man-
tier best calcteated to carry into effect that defence for
which they were responsible. He should very much re'
gret to see Parliament dictating to the Government in
what manner the ships constituting the fleet of this
country should be distributed. Without the necessary
information, it was impossible that any Hon. Member
should be able to form a judgment as to the distribution
of our ships. He was afraid the Honourable Gel:Alone°
would not gain much by the adoption of some of the
proposal which he had made. It was not possible (so
we understood the Right Honourable Baronet to say) to
call all the line of battle ships home and station them in
the Channel. The Honourable Gentleman appeared to
be under the impression that we had a great naval force
abroad, without being of any use whatever. The Hon.
Gentleman could not be aware of the number of appli-
cations by the commercial interests abroad for protec-
tion. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that one of
the main reasons why our merchants were not injured
in some of the South American States was because the
people of those States knew that our ships would not
permit those merchants to be injured. He was glad to
avail himself of this opportunity of expressing his appro-
bation of the good judgment and discretion which our
naval officers had exercised in some of the States of
South America. The Hon. Gentleman had also sug-
gested that ships stationed in the East Indies should be
recalled. All he (Sir F. Baring) would say with regard
to the present mode of employing those ships was, that
nothing conduced more to the spread of civilization
throughout the world than the keeping safe the highway
of commerce—the sea. With regard to the African
squadron, he would not now touch upon it. He did not
believe the people would at present consent to withdraw
that squadron, and when the Chancellor of the Exche
quer the other night made, in his free-trade speechch
(Cheers)—an allusion to the great advantages wb0,10.,
had arisen from the reduction of the duty 00 su'r-nf
he (Sir F. Baring) reflected with some degree n
satisfaction that that result was in a great degree teQ
be attributed to the exertions of that squadron, at-,
that when he left office the slave trade wag
lower ebb than it had been for many a long year.
Hon. Gentleman, in commenting upon some observationl
he (Sir F. Baring) made on a former occasion, appeared
to have misunderstood him. He (Sir F. Baring) on tha,
occasion, expressed his doubts as to the expediency °I
keeping up a large fleet in the Charnel. The grounds
of his doubts were these,—ho apprehended that the ob-
ject of their naval defence was to secure their own safety:
but, at the same time, to do so by means the least Went
dleeome and offensive possible to other parties. That
was the mode in which those who were anxious for the'
own safety, and also for peace, would distribute anr,
force they had at command. Here ho must remark
upon a misunderstanding of what was stated by the last
Secretary but one of the Admiralty, the Hoe. Member
for Tyrone (Mr. Corry.) If that Hon. Gentleman meanie'
to state that there was a superiority in the Channel !1
the French over the English force, then ho (Sir F.
Baring) entirely differed from the lion. Gentleman
as to the fact. But the Honourable Gentleman wsas
speaking of the whole force of the French
in the Mediterranean, as well as in the Chatenell
and was comparing it with the British force in the
Channel only. Now, he (Sir F. Baring) stated distinctly
and deliberately that, at the time and before he left
office, and even so early as in December last there was
ample power in the English force for manning ships
as to secure to us a superiority in the Channel, as corn"
pared, not with the French ships then in commission in
the Channel, for there were hardly any, but with the
French ships in port. With regard to the plan for man'
ning the ships which he had proposed, he regretted to
find that it was considered by the Admiralty to be inef-
ficient. He should have had no reason to complain,
they thought the plan wrong, had they wished for titn'
to consider it, and postponed the adoption of the plan;
but he did regret that two officers of the Admiralty
should have condemned (and one of them in strong len:
guage, too) that plan, and yet that the Admiralty itse.l;
should not have abandoned it. Abandon the scheme it
you please, but don't say you will try the plan, and tne°l
in the House of Commons, systematically complain °
it. He did not consider that fair play to any scheme
that might be proposed.—(Hear.)
Captain DUNCOMBE was sorry to have raised the
indignation of the Right Hon. Gentleman by his ob-
servations with respect to the legacy left to their mai
censors by the late Board of Admiralty, in the shape of
the proposal for a reserve force for the navy. '-
House, however, would remember that those observa-
tions, made in the course of a preceding debate, had bceen
called forth by the speech of a Gallant Admiral (41‘"'
miral Berkeley), one of the Right Hon. Gentleman
Colleagues, who evidently condemned the plan himself.
—(Hoer, hear.) The present Board saw very great
difficulty in carrying out the scheme as proposed by the
late Admiralty, seeing that the proposition was not sanc-
tinned by any officers employed in the service. No one
subject, however, had had greater consideration than
this, or had been more maturely weighed, and the Board
had perceived that there would be a very great difficulty
in carrying it out so as to promote the welfare of the
navy. If the Right Hon. Gentleman accused the Board
of any double-faced dealing, he would state that the cop'
sideration of the scheme bad not yet been abandonea.
The Noble Duke at the head of the Board had consulted
with experienced officers on the subject, and was ready.
and wilting to carry the plan out to the fullest extent. .II
it could be proved to be for the benefit of the public
service.—(Hear.)
Sir F. BARING was not aware that he had used, and
did not intend to use, any words the effect of which evas
to throw imputation upon the honour of those who torero
t"
athkee Atkimieireaxnatilptyla.on,
lie thought it hardly
necessary ow in officeto a
me
been rendered necessary by a mistake on the part of the
Hon. Gentleman opposite. which must have
Mr. HUME, having when this Militia Bill was first
Proposed by the Noble Lord then at the head of her Ma-
ey' Government stated his objections to the principae
of the Bill, as not being consonant to the ago in ethic*
we lived, and contrary to the feelings of the country at
large, bad intended to content himself with that opposite
tion and with voting against it on those grounue
in every ono of its stages; but there had been such
extraordinary statements made in the course of the
debates that had ensued, and allegations (as be con-
ceived) so utterly preposterous, that he could net
allow this opportunity to pas without venturing to
state the view he took of the question now before
the House. Ho could not
conceive how the
information which was in moved
sought the return be
for by the Hon. Member for ho West Bitting could
called unnecessary. He admitted that the effect of the
motion would be to postpone the Bill, and his object, if
like manner, was to postpone it until the present alarm!
as to invasion had left both the present and the late)
Cabinet.—(hear, hear.) The panic which prevailed _
On
the subject of our national defences had been cell d
sort of cholera, for it came and nobody knew why, anti,
went away and nobody knew how.—(A laugh.) But
believed that, whatever might be the state of feelieg,t,
the House, there was no such alarm out of doors; 1,
petitions petitions had been presented against the Bill, and it 19
moat desirable to postpone it until we had the desire
information. The House had been gravely told that tO
grant this return would be to give information to tw!
enemy, but, so far was similar .
information to this from
having been kept secret, that in the appendix to the
of the Naval Committee of 1843 they old
report that
find given the number of ships from 1828 up to, the
year, tho stations the ohipe were on, . *

1