The Sun.
London, England, 1864-07-08 00:00:00

uption). I maintain, with deference to the opinion, of
course, which you (the Speaker) have expressed, in the
•
position in which sue
noose is plac'd, my hon.
friend -,ear tee was perfectly justified in using the term,
after so ungentlemanly an attack as that made upon him by
the hon. gentleman the Under-Secretary of State.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who was
vehemently assailed with cries of "Order" from the Op-
position side, said—Sir, when the hon. gentleman (Mr.
Disraeli) rose there was immediate silence on this side of
the house. I trust we shall be permitted to say what I have
to say on this side in order. The hon. gentleman, as I
understood him, founded his justification in point of order
on what has just taken place upon an allegation made by
him that my hon. friend the Under-Secretary of State for
the Foreign Department charged hon. gentlemen opposite
with talstfi,attion. (Cheers.) In the first place, lam not
aware that he did so—(oh, oh) —that the allegation was
correct in pint of fact; but permit me to say that, if these
disorderly words were used, which I do not aimit, for I am
not conscious of it—if, and this is matter material to the
issue—it disorderly words were used by my honourable
friend, it was the duty of gentlemen who thought them
disorderly to do that which was done by my honourable
friend the Under- Secretary of State, and call the attention
of the house and chair to the subject the moment the
words were used. (Hear, hear.) I apprehend lam safe
in laying down that a breach of order—much less a mere
allegation of a breach of order—committed by one
speaker, will not justify another in the same breach of
order. (Great interrup ion.) I hope it will be clearly un-
derstood whether an imputation of calumnious statement,
is or is not henceforward within the liberty of parliamen-
tary debate. (Oh, oh )
Sir J. PAKJN G CON—I think it right, after what has
fallen from the right hon. gentleman, to state that I myself
heard—and I may say heard with deep indignation—the
word "falsification" from the hon. gentleman on the oppo-
site side. (Cheers.) I myself said across the house at the
moment the Nord was too bad, and I say, if the hon. gen-
tleman is to be allowed to use language accusing hon. ger,
tlemen on this side with falsification, we have a right in call
that word calumnious. (Conservative cheers.) I say, after
all that has passed, I think the Speaker has ruled most
properly.

Mr B. OSBORNE was heard in preference to Mr
Hardy, who was then rising, and said—l rise to speak to
order, and to make a respectful and moderate appeal to the
house, and I do so in support of your just authority, sir.
(2onservative cheers.) You, sir, have been appealed to by
an hon. gentleman in this house, and having laid down the
law, which I think you did in your usual candid and
straightforward manner---[Here the hon. gentleman was
interrupted by the rising of Sir Minto Farquhar, who, in
the general turmoil, had not obsei ved that he had net yet
concluded]—l must put it to the house whether we are not
imperil ing our just influence in the affairs of Europe and
this country it, when you have given your decision, that
the speaker, whoever he may be on either side, is in order,
the noble lord or any other member of this house is to get
up and dispute your decision—(Opposition cheers)—and
endeavour to overrule it. Such is not my idea
of the way to pre-erve order, and t am surprised
that the leader of this house should endeavour to
being your au hority into disrepute. (Opposition cheers.)
The SPEAKER, who was received with solemn silence,
said—l am sure the hon. member for Leominster (MrHardy)
is the last member in the Heine to impute motives to any
man. Certainly the debate has been very warm and excit-
ing, and I should regret to hear, because it would be put.
ring the whole House into a 'also position, that heated
language on one side should be a justification for language
passing the line of order on the other side. (Hear, hear.)
Certainly, anything imputing motives to an hon. memoer
is contrary to the rules o. this House (Hear, hear.) What
has passed in the explanation of this matter, has in some
degree in my view altered the case. I mean that
it appears to me that language which rather passes
the ordinary rules of debate, has been used in conse-
quence of similar language having been used previously.
The debate has been a heated one, and as it was going
on I confess there did not appear to me to be any neces-
sity for interruption or interventio;n on my part. The
hon. member fur Leominster did not, I am sure, intend to
impute motives which would be of an unparliamentary
cuaracter in this case. Under the circumstances ot the
case it did not appear to me necessary that I should inter-
fere; but atter what has occurred I do Dope that the house
will return to a calmer spirit., anti I trust that, though the
moment is an exc: ing one, language on no side will be
used which passes the just privileges of debate.
Mr LAYAItD, rising emid loud cries ot " Order " end
"Chair," said—l wish to express toy regret to the hon.
gene lemon if he understood me. 1 cid not use the word
"iitenfication" as my own word, but I quoted has the word
of another. (Cries of " Name.")
An Hon. MEMBER—The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr LAYARD—If the hon. gentleman understood that
as an imputation on my part that he was guilty of falsifica-
tion, I beg to offer him my apology. •
Mr HO ASMA.N, after several vain attempts to gain a
hearing, said—l wish to speak on another point. (Oh, oh.)
The hon membe:. for Leominster just now, holding in his
hand the terms of the minion ot which I gave notice to this
house in March. (Loud cries of " Order," and " Chair.")
Let him give the terms.
Mr. HARDY-31r, Speaker, I trust that neither now
nor upon any other occasion shall I be wanting in respect
for the chair, or for the conracter and dignity of this house,
but I cannot help saying that, on the firet night of this de-
bate, the hon. gentleman accused the right hon. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer—(Loud cries by the Op-
position, amidst which)
The CHANtJELLOII, of the EXCHEQUER rose and
advance] to the table. Th., cries were then intensified into
most vociferous demands for order, and the right hon. gen-
tleman, finding it impossible to proceed, stood a few mo-
ments in silence, and then resumed his seat.
The SPEAKER—The right hon. gentleman is not going
to refer to what passed—
Mr. HARDY—It was in this debate.
The SPEAKER—I cannot allow words which were
uttered on a previous night—
Mr. HARDY—Without imputing motives either to the
right hon. gentleman opposfze, what 1 meant to say, and
what I do say still, is, it these expressions are not retracted
by those who say that th y had been falsified on this side
of the house— that is a calumny,
out the person spreading it being influenced try motives;
übmynwy whomsoever
spread
w delivered.with
Ido not impute motives. A cal
but the statement involved the honour of gentlemen on this
side of the house. At the same time, the hon. gentleman
has not apologised to me, for I require no apology. I can
only say I did not impute to the hen gentleman opposite
(Mr. Layard), or to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, any-
thing wilful; but in the heat of debate, they used words
which were calculated to wound the honour and feelings ot
hon. gentlemen on this side of the house. (Hear, hear.)
(The hon. gentleman then resumed the point in tne debate
at which he was interrupted.) The hon. gentleman oppo-
site
(Mr. Horsman) had accused him of not quoting the
terns of his address.
BOHRm
esh4aN..
tod../oebjleaesttiou paragraph i
read the
whole thing.—
(
"That, in the opinion of this house, her Majesty ought not
to be advised to give her assent to any new engagements
affecting the integrity and independence of Denmark until
those engagements have been made known to Parliament."
(Hear.) He was at that point when the hon. gentleman
(Mr. Layard) stated the house were in possession of the
papers relating to this matter on the let of March. The
right hon. gentleman (111r.Bni:•naan) said that there was no
objection to this discussion being taken at any period. On
toe contrary, both Lord Russell and the noble lord opposite
had said it would be ihjudioichs,
and might inteifere with
the negotiations, to bring this question forward at an
earlier peri d, or while the Conference was sitting. This
being so, the time they had taken was the earliest time
they had the opportunity of doing so. They did not in-
terfere during the progress of these negotiations. Tho de.
sire of every man was that the peace of Europe should be
restored if possible; and if this Conference had been brought
to an amicable conclusion, no one would have been more de-
lighted than he at such a conclusion. They were told, It
is not only the past, you must tell Us something about the
futon. Now, as to the future, the hon' gentleman (Mr.
Layard) had told theta that he had seven folio volumes re-
lating to certain proceedings, which none of them had seen.
Were they despatches or Were they documents in extenso of
which they had heard from the hon. member and the noble
lord ? It was plain it was only the case of the Government
that had been laid before the bouse, and it was on the case
of the Government that they asked the verdict of that house
and the country. The
hon,
gentleu.an was in possession
of information which none of them had. And it was im •
possible to constitute a policy for the future when they had
not the means of inter
Lion. gentlemen said " Bring
afocreveusaerdd
the G
your ofvoovteern meeenent
of t of
mismanaging confidence." o n fi d enc
these affairs and
Well, they had
maoo
damaging the interests es peace, and would any one say that
was not a vote of want of confidence ? If it were not, he
would like to know what was. The Government had
threatened and menaced, and had not fulfilled their threats.
They had advised, and their advice had not been taken.
The condition of things had been changed, and they had
deserted those.to whom they had given advice. The hon.
members for Bradford and Rochdale had condemned in
strong terms the conduct of the Government, and so had
that watchful Tear'em, as he called himself, 'who was
always looking after British honour acrd interest. He flew
upon Lord Russell, tore from biro every rag, and had left
and exposed him in his namedness to that house and to
the country. (Laughter) This speech wee followed by a
remarkable statament, that the lion gentleman
was going to Pillow gentlemen to the Government
lobby. He coull hardly wonder at that. Four-
teen years ago the noble watelia•giaoing. a;Lahueghetaelrl.e:
into him-
se
werelf. the
andamdl If it
stbattevdyed hit master, and he was about to follow him
lion, who had brought in tie
risgalmanedwo'cYsupied an embarrassing posi-
they had been up to the middle
ehlve,rei,nto that position and how did
the present Geverantent find her when they became pes-
sthesemeGdoovfertnhaeiesenatitahuinillo:ffice ? According to the statements of
of last year in accordance with France and Russia. The
fact was that they Lad arrived at this poeitieo by constant
meddling. tt ith 'regard to the Conference, he could not
help thinking hat Ell mankind, like M. Drouyn de Lhuys,
foresaw how it would end. The Government began
by disc riling the treaty which had all along been the basis