The Sun.
London, England, 1852-06-05 00:00:00

Mr. ADDERLEY observed that he did not think
uniformity eeptece attainable, or, if attainable, desirable.
e Mr. E. DENISON rejoier d that the power had been
onferred on the general and not on the local legisla-
tures
, • Tne General Council would ho much more
a-"el to settle that price which was for the benefit of
8 e°ratnilnity at large; nod he trusted that the price-
here set would he followed in dealing with our
othet r colonies.
Mr• P. SCOTT did not think that this Bill wculd
ped in settling what was the proper and sufficient
of land in New Zealand, and suggested the poet-
r°onetnent of the Clause.
tt J. ?ARINGTON could not accede to the proposi-
°4 for
of Postpeoement. With reference to the question
res tee. Post-office raised by the Hon. Gentleman. the
f;tumittee would see that the regulation of the Post-
aLacsevas in all countries a matter of Imperial concern
2it was here, and be could see no reason for any de-
parture from that universal practice in this case.
Mr. P. SCOTT said he would move ,that the words
i 4 lee
u4t'ornee" be struck oat.
And after some discussion, in which
Mr and
P' PEEL said that he had only suggested,
snot mean to move his proposition relative to the die_
POBBl of the public lands.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
Ili reply to an observation from Mr. V. SIIITH, as to
rine? difference being likely to arise in the legislation
Petting Europeans and natives,
lee PAICINGTON said that the whole spirit of
see Raul was to lace the natives eel the same footing as.
t'uties,.E"°Psan in-habitants, and he should be very sorry'
the in the Bill should lead to a difference in
the•t,egislation applicable to the natives as distinct from
vtropeans. Perhaps, then, the Committee would
"` the r matte stand over for his further consideration.
Thee, clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 20 and 21 were agreed to without discussion.
10. n elsuse 22
°flu!. F. PEEL suggested that one-half the members
quo om council was too much to be requisite to form a
/ea.
&Sir J. PARINGTON consented to reduce the amount
-°ne-third, and
The
clause as thus amended was agreed to.
Clauses 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, and 28 were agreed to with-
At discussion.
whOi n clause 29, relating to the period of time during
eh the Governor might disallow a Bill passed by the
'eltialative Council,
Vie, MOLES WORTH thought two years, the period
tasted in the clause, was too long. Ho would suggest
° or three months.
rlioAfter a short conversation, in which the general opi-
af the Committee appeared to be in favour of a
nee.ll shorter period than two years,
to'nr PAKINGTON consented to reduce the period
threeh months.
facb, e clause thus amended was agreed to.
810;!euses 30, 31, and' 32 were agreed to without discus-
ell Clause 33ncil,, limiting the number of the Legislative
haeSire PAKINGTON said that in deference to what
tiCe been stated in the early part of the evening by
oet;',72le Lord (Lord J. Russell) he meant to strike
Co Words limiting the number of the Legislative
Comacil
Sir tie
of W. MOLESWORTH said that the great object
eleth- second chamber was to obtain the conservative
steCeent.,tand create a proper balance in the powers of the
merely- liut neither of these objects could be attained b. y
halve introducing nominees of the Crown in the Legis-
enee Cuuncll- For the nominee usually lost all influ-
tard with the people after his appointment, being re-
Ilueeed only es the tool of the Government. He would
viereitet) therefore, that instead of the nominee system,
Zeal vjas most unpopular both in Australia and Now
the they should adopt a system somewhat like that
seetede United Status, where the Lower House repre-
sented etehe Population, while the -Upper House repre-
thooektua district, province, or state; and he further
leeert that the members should be appointed for eight
Office' with a provision that one-half should go out of
%tat? four years.
!his ei:".°WATT was of opinion that if they retained
?eine "Ilee--if they determined upon the Upper House
4014„...aoreinated by the representative of the Crown,
vestil,weLr Perfect the Bill might be in other respects, it
had De utterly valueless for the objects which they
W4ettir•
ahhel j;rieseßTEß looked upon this clause as an abortive
seem °}
attempt to make an imitation of the
40.44 et. Lords. He hoped that the Hon.
Baronet the
lioe
r ittfor Southwark would persevere in his opposi-
. ,
list.sibrVituty of the
said he would much prefer the re-
the Government itself than of its nomi-
create Ile thought that the clause, if carried, would
Strpele mischief and disturbance in the coilohn
I:,"INGTON said he had heard w t. somed
smelt 18,a ,:"on. Members say that this clause involved
Qin timPortant principle that if .pressed the whole
tuosntnici be valueless. He thought they wore attaching
Was, a- exaggerated value to the clause. His answer
taite, did not believe that such was the opinion enter-
(ihf,„,/3!ltt3' colony under the protection of the English
celled When the Hon. Member for Tavlstock
et, itti. this mi
abortive and bungling attempt to make
tiatietattole of the House of Lords, the only construe-
entW w(Sir J. Pakington) could put upon such a state-
'toeal a% that the Hon. Member had never taken the
gvi %%B%f inquiring into the present constitution. of
oad °B° , colonies where free institutions existed.
as 'ante
te . Members opposite were pressing upon him
*lthisPernnent which had hitherto never been tried
afeyi,u the British dominions. He had no hesitation in
cheneg that nothing could induce him to consent to the
°Piet'aeecr °Posed.—(Hear, hear.) He had the strongest
Pollee ;;1;11)°,1 ite It was observed that the plan pro-
toe) dietvred in the United States. He (Sir J. paking-
vdth ee„„..:,/t'say that it did. not; but this he said, that
Donee to-J resPeet to the United States, he was not
e_Cllear g° there for precedents upon this subiect.—
quese'v ear.) Re referred to the institutions of his own
‘ll° IV and he would there look for his precedents.
olopiwieoutonfo.rß.aatrionet opposite had brought forward no ar.-
elective Upper Chamber which in his
axeeutn would not equally apply to an elective Crown or
t'oloba"lve
,Government. He thought that every British
Laotle'rnngnt to be a reflection of the institutions of the
"a„elne-erenntree ,so far as it was possible to make them
'llateeelY bad. no precedent for au elective Upper
tm th•aer. The Crown nominates the Upper Chamber
40ti•
si- Country, and in every colony where free institu-
,eoradc4ist the same principle was carried out. They
nct, he confessed, make the anology close and
rally uut this was certain, that in their colonies gene-
they gave, the Crown the nomination of the
close ors of the -Upper Chamber, and this was the
la ten analogy they could have to the Upper Chamber
tla, :ll° mother country, the only difference being that
tat), 'guides conferred on the colonies were not heredi-
the_, as they.were in this country. In North America
ti re were no less than five representative constitu-
els, re
tat . "fie Hon. Member for Tavistock appeared to
of get this fact. They were the constitutions of Canada,
leele Brunswick, of Nava Scotia, of, Prince Edward's
thknd, and of Newfoundland. If they go to the East,
"Y wo lel fi d that with the exception of the convict
Col •
se -ales and British Guiana, which has a peculiar con,
which had been given by the Dutch, in every
Gated having two chambers the upper one was nomi-
bY ttaPCrowe. They had precedents before them
1,0 such constitutions being in existence for hundreds of
h ars. There was no doubt a case which perhaps mightf.
9eourgg!4 en exception—he meant that of the Cape of
that --ee"ve•-e(lear, hear, from the Opposition.) But
had was n ©axception; for it was a constitution which
yet only besent out there the other day, and was not
• St:Plee• He would not be a party to the adoption
%hut? course but that which goes to assimilate the in-
Fla Pris in the coldnies to those in the mother country.
taeou.iangreed with Hon. Members opposite as to the
fren:%tieal advantages which they argue would result
leelot" adoption.of the principle which they advocate.
Prop„!l',,ed upon the' upper chamber, constituted as he
Cpuru, as a most wholesome check upon the nacre
pal branch of the Legislature—standing between the
rte the> rig represented by the Governor, and the people.
itale °light they would find a much better check in an
bodendent body of men thus nominated, than in a
elect ,o,f Men who derived their existence from those who
tee; t°er representatives in the lower branch of the
iiiittature.—(Elear, hear.)
vihaF. PEEL thought it was very natural that they
tion
sknew
ah by experience the advantages of their institu-
, elec nicely balance and so j,unoy stlroportioned,
111°,4 desir that their descendantst only there, but
NZ, colonies, should participate in this boon. They
nit f;el however, to give not only the form, but the sub.
ILL,',°f the British Constitution. The great practical
10;at-e'age of an upper chamber was to afford ample time
tetete consideration of important measures, and to pdrep--
elea"„hasty legislation. Another great advantage
teCu'e from it was to prevent the Crown or its repre-
tod itetive from coming into collision with what appeared
these the will of the people. If they wanted to
e
ees_ Powers efficient they must constitute a body pus-
le7ad of inherent force and vitality, which would curet-
the
it:etid the respect of the country, und enlist besides d
Housesterlriie of the people He could well understan
the cif Lordi exercia.in a ower of this kind with
ciency, because they were apbody of distinguished
;tan; possessing large territorial property or otherwise
acterised by the valuable se
rendered either by
themselves or their ancestors to the country. But what
tZ,erablance was there between the House of Lords and
eme's proposed upper chamber? It was to be nominated
iphe governor, but there was no condition of eligi-
pieltY required. The governor was to select whom he
to n4ed, and such a body so chosen was not likely
th_conitnand -the respect of the country. By this Bill
teZ clembers of the council once chosen were to hold
Now, though elected at first by
the a life tenure.
independent
of governor they would become altogether
et the
that - eovernor, and would constitute a Close oligarchy,
00 most probably would obstruct the business of the
tttatry instead of advancing
it. When the Right Hen.
the'recnict referred to North America, he would remind
eole-4
aial that there had been recent changes made in the
teo" constitutions of North America of an impor-
a" character. An agitation was lately going on
Whenget the people of North America to alter or amend
niet tn6Y called their system of irresponsible govern-
eet.4s--"n gevernment that was said to be composed of
s° sins who Possessed a majority in the Rouse of As-
Ato„?• In Canada, Nova &Teen and in British North
tea,ist,l""c this. system a irresponsible government was
were he established. The vticancies in the c-aincil
tilt! no filled up by the governor, upon the advice of
fee tae who recommended
arf_utlee to their abilit persons, not with re-
Cease and position in the colony, but
party
se. it was alleged that they sided with their own
Chu! view*. He said, therefore; that the effect of this
pee,unge..ien the constitution had been still lower to de-
the T.. character of. those councils, and to deprive
theto. et that respect which ought properly to attach to
Ned 4h4Right Baronet said that he must be
o 1:""144 already established, and he