The Sun.
London, England, 1864-06-07 00:00:00

OFFICERS IN THE INDIAN ARMY.

Colonel SYKES, on the motion for going into committee
of supply, moved :—" That the recent appointment of
employment (except in emergent cases) of officers
of the Indian armies with regiments to which they
do not belong, in suppresssion of the regimental
rights of the officers or usages of those regiments,
is contrary to the spirit of the Act 21 and 22 Vic. c. 106.
which guaranteed " that the military and naval forces of the
East India Company should be deemed to be the military
and naval forces of her Majesty, and should be under
the same obligations to serve her Majesty as they
would have been under to serve the said company,
and should be liable to serve under the same territorial
limits only, for the same terms only, and be entitled to the
like pay, pensions, allowances, and privileges, and the like
advantages as regards promotion and otherwise, as if they
had continued in the service of the said company;" and asked
the Secretary of State for India whether such appointments
had been approved by him.
Mr VA.NSITTART supported the motion, and said that
it was high time there should be a remedy applied to a
grievance which was now brought under the consideration
of the house in a temperate and logical form.
After some observations from Mr TORRENS and Captain
JERVIS,

Sir C. WOOD said that the whole question raised, the
importance of which he admitted, was under the considera-
tion of Government,and he trusted in a few days he would be
able make a satisfactcry explanation to the house on that
subject. (Hear, hear.) He denied that the appoint.
ment of officers in the Indian army was regulated by any
principle except the efficiency of the officers who were
selected to occupy important positions. He contended that
in order to secure the preservation of our dominions
in India it was necessary to increase the number of English
soldiers in the garrisons, so as to render us independent
of the native soldiering. In support of this argument
he cited the authority of eminent persons connected with
Indian affairs.

Sir M. FARQUHAR reminded the house that the right
hon. baronet had been warned of the impossibility of carry-
ing out his pledges with respect to the Indian army if he
was determined that no Injustice should be done to the
British army; and also that he had been warned that if
the staff corps were established injustice must be done to
the other officers of the Indian array.
The subject then dropped.
THE CONFERENCE.

Lord H. LENNOX—Sir, before you leave the chair, I
wish to ask my hon. and gallant friend the member for Lis-
heard (Mr B, Osborne) whether he ia satisfied with the
tenor et the reply which ha received from the First Lord of
the Treasury this evening ; for if he is, I venture to say any
hon., and gallant friend is the only member of the house
who is so. (Laughter.) The noble lord and his Government
have all along discouraged any attempt to inquire what is
going on in the Conference ; and if complete secresy had
prevailed with respect to what was going on in the ccuncil
chamber, I should be the last person to undertake the re-
sponsibility of pressing upon the Government, or upon my
hon, and gallant friend, a course which would jeopardise
the interests of peace. But such is not the case. Although
her Majesty's Government are silent, the journals of Paris,
Vienna, and Berlin teem with nears of what passes, or is
supposed to pass, in the council chamber in Downing-street.
It will be recollected that at the commencement of the ses-
sion the noble lord at the head of the Government and his
colleague in another place, night after night, were in the
habit of declaring that they intended to abide by the treaty
of 18.52. Subsequently the noble lord announced, amidst
the, cheers of the house, that the Conference was to meet
upon the basis of maintaining the independence and in.
tegrity of the dominions of King Christian. Well, the Go-
vernment of the noble lord and his colleague having over
and over again declared that they were pledged to that
policy, was of itself a sufficient justification for the question
of my hon. friend. I wish then to ask my hon. friend
whether ho will give to the house an assurance that upon
an early day he will again call attention to this subject. It
he does he will meet, I am sure, with the sympathy of the
majority of this house and of the country, and will endea-
vour to elicit from the Government whether the statements
put forward by foreign journals are correct, that the Confe-
rence now only sits upon the basis of the annihilation of the
treaty of 1852. I beg to ask my hon. friend whether he
can give that assurance to the house.

Mr B. OSBORNE—I do not know what assurance I
can give to the house; but before I give any I should like
hon. gentlemen on the other side of the house to give this
assurance, that in the event of my again reviving a debate
upon the treaty of 1852, I shall not be met again by a
movement of the previous question. (Cheers.) The course I
have hitherto taken upon this subject has met with encou-
ragement from the other side of the house. If lam ask
whether I am satisfied with the answer given by tte noble
lord to my question, I heveeonly to say Watt although
gratified for the smallest favours, I do not "(eel exactly antis-
fled with that answer. For it struck. me from the very first
that this Conference was instituted more to preserve the in-
tegrity of the Treasury Benelie-naore to prevent the dismem-
berment of the Ministry-e
-than to preserve the integrity of
Denmark. (Oppositeen cheers and laughter.) And I would
put this to the herese, that this Conference is meeting—mark
you, not from, day to day, as if with the object of settling
the questieen ; but the me nth of July will 'speedily arrive,
re embers will go out of town, and the question must
die Pe natural death. lam surprised at the reticence of the
'4luse upon the question. Up to a certain point I think they
maturely leeward ;
were right, and perhaps I was wrong in bringing it pre-
but when we have arrived at the 6th of
June, and the question
has been allowed to drag its slow
! length along from day to day and week to week, I think the
house ought to be put in possession of seine definite infor-
mation. What is the position of the house and the coun-
try ? We see the lowest inhabitants of the most minor ca-
pitals in Europe are informed by their newspapers of what
is taking place in the Conference. (Hear, hear.) We have
therefore what we believe to be our best information derived
from foreign newspapers; and it comes to this, that the
subjects of a constitutional Government are the worst in-
formed in Europe of what is taking place in our own capi-
tal. How long is this to go on ? I were to use the true
phrase with respect to these proceedings, and speak of them
ac
;la
insrfa ; r
nc thereforee
doubtl shoull
the dh
be onaollteddotoso_or_deoraub2yhyt there
il
you, air, from the
willouse is placed in a most humiliating
c
position, and that the house is being tricked into
silence by
members of a Government who, like the monks of La
Trappe, have taken the vow of silence. (Laughter) vehee
ther they are digging their own graves is another question.
But this I must say, if we submit day after day and
w
after week to be put off with these evasive answers, in which
the noble lord is co great a proficient as to eminently entitle
him to that doctor's degree which ho obtained the other
day, we shall not only be digging the grave of the indepen..
demo of this house, but the grave of our national honour.
(Cheers.)

Mr. DISRAELI—Great reticence has been preserved
in the House of Commons on these affairs. I hardly
know anything to be more admired M our Parliamentary
system than the reserve which obtains when it is known
that her Majesty's Government are engaged in important
negotiations upon which the question of peace or war may
rest. (Hear.) I think it is a characteristic which marks
it out from all other attempts at parliamentary govern-
ment, and is one of the surest guarantees for the endu-
rance of constitutional rule; but at the same time I must
say that, after listening to the observations, and accepting
twithout annoyance the taunts of the hon. and gallant gen-
tleman who has thus addressed us on the moving of the
asionand
onp awfus question—l having moved the previous question
interestsorra ofewheneverdue It
et hhoeurg3hitai
former
itee
tyw,assofoovrertuh-e
ment—l must say country •
was disappointed to-night in the answer
cheers.}
the noble lord gave. (Opposition-
find ourselves,
I think, in the
w
situation in which we no
Ouereselve!, it would have
been salutary, and it would have b
the part of her Majest)'s Government to towhisaeveansdhopwonlitmi more

THE sinv, LO

andour and frankness than the noble lord has shown ti'-
night. (Hear.) It must be remembered that Parlia-
mentary reserve under these circureetances depends on one
constitutional condition; and when that is observed, of
course the parliamentary reserve is perfectly intelligible.
The constitutional justification of the reserve of Parliament
is, when the Government is engaged in negotiations such
as these, that Parliament is acquainted with the principles
on which the negotiations are conducting and approves
of the general policy of the Government. (Cheers. That
is a condition which has always been acknowledged, and
upon which the salutary system of parliamentany reserve
under these circumstances is founded. Bat what the House
of Commons is now alarmed abont-e-and I am sure I do not
misinterpret the general feeling of the house on this mat-
ter—what at this moment agitates the house is, that they
are not convinced that the policy which was frankly an-
nounced by the Government before these negotiations com-
menced is the one they are now pursuing. (Opposition
cheers.) The house and the country have become anxions,be-
cause they are not convinced now, and not satisfied, that the
condition of parliamentary reticence any longer exists or is
observed. (Cheers.) I do not want to penetrate the secrets
of the Conference; but it has been well said by an hon.
member who has just spoken that there is not that reserve
in other countries in the sources of information. I myself
read the other day in a German paper an absolute account
of what had taken place in the Conference on the most cri-
tical day of that Conference, and that was not by way of
rumour or on din, but it was given in the form of diplomatic
accuracy, and I have reason to believe, from subsequent in-
quiry, that it was an authentic document. (Hear,) No w,
although the House of Commons—those who sit upon this
side of the house—when these critical and important ques-
tions are raised, are more than ever desirous not to interfere
with the course of her Majesty's Government in these ne-
gotiations, it would be impossible for us, not wishing to be
pedantic, to acknowledge that we are ignorant of what took
place in a house within a few yards from where we are as-
sembled; but there are rumours which reach us of an
authentic nature which are enough to disquiet and disturb
the house, (Opposition cheers.) We could not expect that
in negotiations of this kind the noble lord would give us
details of the course of matters which are changing from
day to day and from hour to hour, still it would have been
satisfactory to the house if it had been informed by the
noble lord that these negotiations were not concluded, that
the Conference was still sitting, and would sit some time,
still the noble lord might inform the house that the princi-
ples of their policy were those on which the Government
entered into the Conference, and that he believed there was
a fair prospect that they would succeed ; and if they did not
succeed, at least her Majesty's Government would have an
opportunity of vindicating, as far as their opinion was con-
cerned, the policy which they recommended, and they could
appeal with confidence for the consent of Parliament.
(Cheers.) Bat when we hear, as we do hear, that the course
which they are pursuing is exactly contrary to the course
at first recommended—(loud cheers)—l say it is im-
possible to expect from an assembly with the popular ele-
ments of which the House of Commons is constituted, that
we should hold ourselves upon these benches with grim re-
serve, and not expect from the Minister, whom, under such
circumstances all parties are prepared to trust, at least some
communication to guide and animate public opinion. There-
fore I much regret that the noble lord has not said some-
thing which I think the house had a right to expect of him.
I think the house has a right now, when the question in
agitation is necessarily a question of the suspension of hos.
tilities, to hear from the noble lord something as to their
progress. (Hear, hear,) It would have been satisfactory
to have heard to-night that which would have persuaded
us that what every man says of her Majesty's Government
is not correct. We should have been glad if the noble lord
had told us her Majesty's Government were not pursuing in
the Conference exactly the opposite course to that which
they announced to Parliament as Hee basis of the neg,cia-
tions—(loud cheers)—by which announcement, allow me to
remind the house, they have obtained this parliamentary
reticence and reserve. It was not from indifference to these
great matters, but because such great public interests were
at stake ; and when the general policy expressed by the Go-
vernment was satisfactory to oar convictions, and to the
conscience of the nation, it was our duty to be silent. I
must say the silence of the noble lord, and his tone to-night,
are such as to fill us with great apprehensicn and anxiety,
At this moment, when a renewal of the suspension of hos-
tilities is in debate, it is due to Parliament that some an-
nouncement sb.ould be made. (Cheers.) We all know what
was the t;eneral policy of her Majesty's Government. The
noble lord told us frankly, repeatedly, and continuously
'let it was the policy of her Majesty's Government to main-
tain the treaty of 1852, or rather I would say—describing, as
he did, the scope and tendency of the treaty of 1852—it was
to maintain the integrity and independence of Denmark,
(Opposition cheers.) That the noble lord has constantly told
us; and because he went into the Conference to do that, the
House of Commons has exercised, to my mind, wise and
parliamentary reticence and reserve ; so that it could not be
said we interfered or threw obstacles in the way of a happy
solution of these difficulties. But if it be now true, as ru-
mour tells us, but which appears too incredible to accept--
that a Government who but five months ago were making
overtures to the Emperor of the Fran h to stir up an Euro-
pean war in order to maintain the integrity and indepen-
dence of Denmark—(loud cheers)—if men with that policy
should be the same men who have at least succeeded in
calling together a Conference in order that they themselves
should accomplish the destruction of the integrity and in-
dependence of Denmark—(loud cheers from the Opposition
henches)—then I say that some explanation is duo to the
House of Commons ; and the noble Led may rest assured
that neither Parliament nor the country can foe g be silent
under circumstances such as these. No one wishes to inter-
fere with the course of Government if that course be a frank
one; but I say that no minister can come forward and ask
for parliamentary reticence and reserve during the progress
of negotiations wno has not first of all fulfilled the great
condition of such parliamentary reserve, or expect such a po-
acy would be approved by the country and by Parliament.
It he follow a policy totally the contrary, it may be right
and justifiable; but he is bound to come forward when such
a change takes place, especially at a moment like the pre-
sent, when the continuation of an armistice for the suspen-
sion
of hostilities is the question, and tell the house he has
made such a change. We might then be asked to continue
our confidence or signify our reprobation of his conduct.
Well, I should have considered that a wild hypothesis, if it
were not for the rumours—and, I fear, the accurate infor-
mation—that have reached me ; and I should have
thought it impossible that any body of men could have
been more deceived than the House of Commons. The hon
gentleman then proceeded to notice that the noble lord had
brought Europe, as it were, to witness his policy for the
maintenance of the integrity end independence of Den-
mark; and yet for two months he had kept that house in a
state of mystification, He had said that not only England,
but Austria and Prdssia, wished to maintain the integrity
and independence of Denmark. (Laughter.) He had de-
clared that if difficulties arose, Denmark should not stand
alone. (Hear, hear.) That (continued the right hon.
gentleman) visa satisfactory to the country. I myself, I
will net say tremble, but feel hesitation, when the great
T.eation of war arises. I feel it is only when the great
national interests and honour of the country are concerned
that such a course is justified. The noble lord informed us
that Denmark should not be'alone, and we were told that
no difficulties would arise. Federal execution was then
impending, The house was prepared for that execution,
and it took place. Then there was the passage of the Eider.
That was the great point upon which the house and the
country had fixed their attention, and there was a general
understanding that if the Eider was passed the Government
would take steps to vindicate their policy. The Eider was
passed, and other rivers were passed, and at last Jutland
was invaded. I ask the house to recollect the answer which
the noble lord gave to my inquiry respecting the invasion of
Jutland. He said the invasion of Jutland was an atrocity
—(cheers)—in a speech which must rank with those of great
public invective, and which we must all recall to mind.
After all this, they talked of a Conference, and negotiations
were carried on. The house, notwithstanding these disap-
pointments—notwithstanding all these various circum-
stances, under which they had reason to believe the conduct
of the Government was far from satisfactory—the house
have generally supported her Majesty's Ministers. They
did that because the ncble lord told us frankly, candidly,
and repeatedly that they entered into that Conference with
a definite object and a definite view. No one wished
to hold the noble lord down pedantically to a definite
engagement or definite details. All we wanted was, that
his policy should be maintained. We gave the noble lord
full credit for these assurances ; there was a suspension of
arms for a month. I myself hold that as a question of
great importance, having ventured to remind the house
that a Conference without an armistice, without a sus-
pension of hostilities, was generally fruitless and unsatis-
factory. Now the month is over, and, under any circum-
stances, were there no rumours of suspicion—were there no
cause which justified a man in thinking that was happening
which was not for the honour of England or Englishmen—
were there no cause existing which could make the House
of Commons suppose that the policy of her Majesty's Go-
vernment was changed—were everything ae smooth as a
summer sea—were there no cause for anxiety and for dark
diatruat in the public mind—still I maintain it would have
been the office and duty of a Minister on such an occasion,
and under such circumstances as the continuation of an
armistice, to come down and give some account of the po-
licy and of the progress of these negotiations, to reassure
the public mind, and to give them some confidence in public
transantions. They ought, at least, to have reiterated the
conditions of the policy which Parliament had sanctioned,
if not by public vote, at least by their silence. The noble
e in
arc
thisthemselves lord, I say, ought to have bean called to account, even if
there
was
no fory
i nter anxiety,
al
haveß
perpetrating ut i itentirely
t i eree
that
hh
changed
ht
afactpartition
thated
t ho e
Government,
their
Denmarkpoliey—if which only five months ago they were stirring
up a European war to prevent—then I say it is a mockery
causethy
a
of this house for the noble lord. under such circumstances,
to remain silent. (Loud cheers)
Lord PA LME RSTON rose to reply, and was loudly
cheered. He said—Sir, we have heard a magnificent display
of virtuous indignation. (Cheers, and cries of Oh, oh.) The
right hon. gentleman knows he is attacking me in a posi-
tion in which I cannot enter into that defence which I
otherwise would go into. (Oh, oh, and cheers.) He is like
a man who at ;arks another wi'h his arms tied behind him.

DON, TUESDAY EVE.NiNG, JUNE 1, 18014.

(Laughter.) He knows—because he has been in office him-
self—he knows that lam tongue-tied at the present mo-
ment, and that I cannot go into an answer to the charges
which have been showered upon me. Sir, the right hon. gen-
tleman has a policy. Ho always talks of a policy, and boasts
of a policy, and reproaches those who have no policy. Well,
I challenge him to say what that policy is. (Loud Cheers and
counter-cheers.) Let him tell us fairly what he wants the
Government to d'O, and let him ask this House, after having
supperred tier Majesty's Government, if they will adopt the
policy which he thinks the country ought to follow. (Mi-
nisterial cheers.) Let him propose a vote that this House
will support the Crown by all money and means to give
effect to that policy. (Cheers.) When he does that, I shall
then say he is sincere in the couras. which he adopts in this
House. Sir, those who know what a negotiation is, espe-
cially a negotiation carried on with powers who hold a great
variety of views and different interests at stake—and the
right hon. gentleman knows or ought to know—must be
aware that to state from day to day what had been the re-
sult of this Conference would endanger the result which
everybody who is anxious for the :peace of Europe must
wish for. (Cheers.) Therefore, in spite of the attacks of the
right hon. gentleman, I shall not be induced to violate what
I believe to be my duty, and I must decline to state to the
House from day to day all that passes at the meeting of the
Conference, what each member said—(Cries of " No, no"
from the Opposition benches)—and what they intended to
do. (No, no.) That is what the right hon. gentleman
wants. (No, no.) That is what he wants. (No, no, and
cheers.) Foreign papers tell him, and he wants me to go
into the details as these foreign papers do, (Renewed cries
of " No, no.") Sir, there is a great difference in the posi-
tion of a Prime Minister in this House, and that of the
reports circulating in foreign newspapers. The right hon.
gentleman is at liberty to attack this statement, but,
though I have the greatest respect for this House, and think
they ought to be informed of anything of public interest—
I shall not go beyond my duty to satisfy the desire of this
House, being sure that this House will not wish me to go
into details which ought not to be made public. (Hear,
hear.) When the negotiations going on have arrived at a
stage when it will be consistent with the duty of Govern-
ment and the national interest to make known to the House
what we have agreed to and proposed, I am quite satisfied
that we shall be quite able to convince the House that in
this matter we have acted according to our duty and for
the best interests of the country, (Loud and long-continued
cheering,)
Mr S. FITZGERALD said that the noble lord (Palmer-
ston) had misrepresented what his right lion friend (Mr
Disraeli) had required of him. What his right hon friend,
what the house, and what the country required to know
was whether her Majesty's Government had been the very
parties to propose in the Conference that dismemberment of
Denmark which they had denounced only a few months
since, which they had decided would be a just cause of war,
and to prevent which they had declared their willingness to
join France and Russia in giving material aid to Denmark.
Lord R. CECIL regretted that no member of the Treasury
bench had thoUght fit to answer his right hon friend, and
give the Hones of Commons the information which it asked,
The noble lord (Palmerston) knew that if, by veiling him-
self behind his poition as a negotiator, he could put off
rendering to the House of Commons the account which he
was bound t o render to it until the summer was so far ad-
vanced that the question could not be gone into, his Go-
vernment was safe at least for this year. (Hear, hear.) He
thought the noble lord was making an experiment on the
patience of the house and of the country, which would not
be answered by the results. It was idle to talk of details,
when they all knew that the noble lord had made a complete
change of policy, and that the dismemberment of Denmark
had been approved—nay, proposed—by her Majesty's Go-

vernraent themselves. The reason why the House of
Commons and the country were beginning to get impatient
at the length of these Conferences was because they more
than suspected that, under the auspices of the noble lord,
England, while professing to befriend Denmark, was in
reality betraying her.
Mr KINGLAKE said it would indeed be lamentable

if the language used on either side of the house should
have the effect of extorting twin her Majesty's Govern-
ment any declaration perilous to the peace of Europe.
While fully appreciating the force of the arguments of
the right lion gentleman opposite (Mr Disraeli), that the
silence of the House had been purchased by the declaration
of principles made by her Majesty's Government—(hear)--
he would call the attention of the house to the fact that
immediately preceding the Conference question after clues.
tion had been asked as to the basis upon which the parties
were to go into the Conference, and that at last her Ma-
jesty's Government had, with great reluctance, declared

that the parties to the Conference would meet without any
other basis than the desire to restore peace in the north of
Europe. Surely that statement was a retraction of those
other impossible principles which her Majesty's Govern-
ment had propounded to the house in the earlier part of the
session, and he thought it bscoming in all those who valued
the peace of Europe rather to welcome the retirement of her
Majesty's Government from a position which was perceived
all over Europe to be untenable, than to render that retire-
ment difficult by taunting them with the words they Lad
used in the earlier part of the session.

Mr D. GRIFFITHS thought the noble Lord (Palmer-
ston) would sesumo grunt responsibility in prol ,nging the
armistice—if war should eventually break out afresh—be-
cause the present weather was the most favourable to naval
operations in the Baltic. With regard to the dismember-
ment Of the Danish kingdom, he thought if a line could be
drawn which would separate the Danes from enemies who
had proved themselves so ruthless, unscrupulous, tend brutal
as the Germans had proved themselves to be, it would he a
satisfactory arrangement.

Sir A. VERNEY said that no union of the German popu-
LatiOn of Schleswig-Holstein With thoe Danish crown wuuld

lead to a permanent peace. If any portion of Schleswig
desired to be united to Denmark, he hoped tha'... the in-
habitants would have a constitutional opportunity of ex-
pressing that feeling, as no other means which could be
devisei would lead to permanent peace.
The subject then dropped.
THE ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.

Mr. H. SEYMOUR asked the Secretary of State for
the Home Department if he would lay upon the table of
the house the correspondence between the prelates and the
Government, that the house might know what are the ob-

jections of the prelates which prevent her Majesty's Go-
vernment from introducing any measure for the reform of

the 4colesiasticai Courts. [To urged the necessity of a
measure to remedy the abuses of the Courts and the im
perfect slate of the law, observing it was suggested that the
necessary reforms were opposed on account of private in-
terest, and he wished to learn the grounds of objection.
The delay of reform was unjust to both the clergy and the
laity.

Sir G. GREY explained some of the practical difficulties
in the way of the measures, and the cause of delay. The
Lord Chancellor, however, he maid, hoped to be able co in-
troduce a bill during the present session. There had been
no correspondence on the subject.
The house then went into a Committee of Supply upon
the Civil Service Estimates.