The Sun.
London, England, 1864-07-09 00:00:00

Non-Vontents.

Present
Proxies
-168

Majority for the resolution.. .. 9
The resolution was therefore curled.
The result was received with considerable applause.
Their lordships adjourned at 20 minutes past two o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening,
The SPBAxint. took the chair shortly after 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Helston and Penrhyn Junction Railway Bill (Prince of
Wales's Consent, on behalf of the Duchy of Cornwall, to
be signified)—Wandsworth Bridge Bill.
ATTENDANTS AT THE BRITISH MUSEUM.
Mr H. LEWIS asked the member for the University of
Cambridge whether an order had been issued (to take effect
from Sept, Ist next), prohibiting the attendants at the Bri-
tish Museum from leaving the Museum during the ordinary
dinner hour, or at any time between the hours of nine
o'clock in the morning and six o'clock in the evening; and,
if so, why has such order been issued; and whether any
and what provision has been made to enable the attendants
to procure their dinner on the premises at a moderate
charge.

Mr WALPOLE expressed a ;hope that any alterations
which might be required would be made.
THE ALTERATION IN THE UNIFORM OF THE
POLICE.

Mr A. SMITH asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department why the dress of the police had been
altered, and whether it was intended that the whole metro
politan police should assume a military costume and ap-
pearance. He thought constables should have as little
of a military appearance as possible.
BRITISH OFFICERS AND SOLDIERS KILLED
IN NEW ZEALAND.

Sir F. SMITH asked the Under Secretary of State for
War whether he had any objection to lay upon the sable of
the house a statement showing the number of officers and
soldiers of the regular forces, as Ncell as of the militia and
volunteers, who have been killed or wounded, up to the last
returns, in the New Zealand War?
The Marqiiis cf HARTINGTO replied in the negative.
MAJOR GORDON.

Mr LIDDELL asked whether any official information
had been received of Major Gordon's retirement from the
command of the Anglo-Chinese disciplined force, in com-
pliance with the Order in Council in March last, or whe-
ther any secret orders, or reservations, or discretionary
powers were conveyed to Major Gordon or any other English
officer in China along with such order in council—and, if
so, whether there be any objection to state the nature of
such secret orders or reservations, and under what circum-
stances such discretionary powers were to be exercised.
Mr. LAYARD said that there would be no objection to
employ Major Gordon by the Government, but it would be
on the condition that he gave up his connection with the
Chinese.
THE ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE FOREIGN
POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT.
Mr B. OSBORNE resumed the adjourned debate, He
said that the question had not been rendered more clear
and interesting by the speech of the Attorney-General last
night. He considered that there had been some very
curious unions of different members of the house in regard
to this subject. For instance, the lion member for Hunt-
ingdon and Mr Bright, with their different opinions,
appeared to kiss each other. He deprecated the con-
duct of the honourable member for Sheffield in the
attack he had made on Lord John Russell, and when
he made the observation that the noble lord would have
been a schoolmaster if he had not been a statesman. But
the hon. member forgot the services which the noble lord,
the Secretary for
_Foreign Affairs, had rendered to the
country, or the lessons he had taught in regard to civil
and religious liberty which were not easily forgotten.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the sneers of the hon, mem-
ber for Sheffield at schoolmasters, it must be remembered
that there were very distinguished schoolmasters, and one,
Dr Arnold, might rank with the hon, member for Sheffield.
(Great laughter.) He by no means endorsed the foreign
policy of the Government in its different details,
but he did not like the injustice that had been done to the
noble lord (Earl Russell), for which the whole Cabinet was
responsible, including the noble lord the First Minister.
(Laughter.) Having referred to the proceedings at the
Conference, in the course of which he described the pro-
ceedings :as a: combination of blarney and bluster, and
ridiculed the statement that had been made as an inter-
change of ideas between the plenipotentiaries at the Con-
ference, but what these ideas were which rendered an Inter-
change he did not pretend to understand. (Laughter.) He
said that this country was most fortunate in being relieved
from the responsibility of the guarantee proposed by the
obstinacy of Denmark. (Laughter.) In referring to
the Conference, ha said that the only unanimity
in the members of the Conference was a vote
of thanks to Lord John Russell—(great laughter)—and a
statement that they left England with great pleasure. (Re-
newed laughter.) He denied that the treaty of 1852, on
which so much was said to depend in the solution of the
questions of the Germans and Danes, was anything more
than an emanation from the subtle policy of Russia. He
drew the attention of the house to tne discrepancy which
prevailed between the sentiments expressed in 1848 by
the First Lord of the Treasury in reference to the question
of the succession to the Duchies of Schleswig and Holstein,
and the sentiments that he had expressed on the subject.
The noble I)rd had said in 1848 that the son of the
Duke of Oldenburg should be named in the succession.
.(Hear, hear.) He denied altogether that the treaty of July,
1852, so important in this matter, had the sanction of Aus-
tria and Prussia, and he asserted that the latter power had
entered an actual protest against it. (Hear, hear.) He
repeated that this protocol was a mere dictation of Russia,
acceded to by a doubtful policy which invested it with its
political value. The fact was that Russia, in the protocol
of 1851, promoted the views of King Christian IX, in re-
gard to the Duchies. He contended that the King of
Denmark had as much right to the Duchies as he had to
the throne of England—(hear, hear)—and they must
remember that the rights of those duchies had been
guaranteed. He said that the claims of the Duke of
Augustenburg could not be voided, merely by the fact of
his having been in pecuniary difficulties, and accepting
some pecuniary compensation for his claims. He repudiated
the idea of going to war on this question, and merely
for the purpose of forcing on the Duchies a
disagreeable dynasty—(hear, hear)—as the ratepayers of
this country had not the slightest interest in the matter.
He said that the policy of the Government tended to drift
this country into war, With regard to the late Conference
on the Dano-German question, the only thing he had been
able to make out of its proceedings was the diplomatic defi-
nition of the difference between a suspension of arms and an
armistice; and that was all it was possible the most assi-
duous reader could collect. Credit had been taken by the
Government for having preserved the peace of Europe, but

could not be denied that they had been in league to go
o war to put an unwelcome sovereign on the throne co
Schleswig-Holstein ; and he believed that the real credit of
maintaining peace was due to the Emperor of the French.
If it had not been for him, if the designs of ministers b-..a
been followed out, we should have been at this morednt
in
the midst of an awful war with Germany. A
- all to Den-
mark, in his opinion she would have is_Ade a better
fight of it had she been better served by her
tured and blustered
own ministers ; but they had 1 Fa;
in true Palmerstonian style; whilst they omitted
to arm their people to reprsi the invader. He had no doubt,
however, that the DaT;ies would now come to terms directly
with Prussia; an: he should not be surprised if he heard
the Prime MI-luster stating in the course of the evening that
England was about to agree to some convention to prevent
a Scandinavian confederation. It has been a question,
how far the just iafluence of this country has been lost, and
it cannot be denied that England does not occupy the
position she should do with refezence to other nations
owing to the bungling pclicy which has been pursued. But I think it would be easy to redress that, and to place the country in a proper position. What should we do? It
the noble lord and gentlemen on that bench are not skilful
—I think they have great capacity, but they are a little past
their time, and they bungle—(laughter)—if it be wished to
place England in a proper condition, and to restore its in-
fluence, I think it might be done by imitating that custom
which is obligatory ou officials in Japan—(great laughter)
if they would only exercise in a modified form that " happy
despatch"--I think they would place the country in a proper
position, (Hear, hear.) Ido not suspect, however, that
they will take that advice. There sits the noble lord, sedet,
I might almost say de ceternumque sedebit, and I was
about to add—but that would not be true—infelix. (Loud
laughter.) But what is the position of what is jokingly
called the Liberal party—that is the nom de guerre.
There is no such thing, though that is between our-
fselves—(lou.: Opposition cheers, and counter cries of
Oh, oh.) There are people out of the house who imagine,
when we go to the hustings with all our fine professions,
that it, and that we shall stand by our colours in
this house. re
heusin2an
e.As an election is very near, let us consider
what of the Liberal party. The old Liberal
watchwords were "peace, retrenchment, and reform."
(Hear, hear.) It is delightful to see that as to one question
we are all agreed—even the noble lord the member for Stam-
ford (Lord .
peace
Cecil) is enthusiastic. upon it, that is, the
question of pea
ment, but only c' And occasionally we all nibble at retrench-
ecasionally. Ido not go so far as the hon.
member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams), but I think he will
agree with see that both sides do not want reform—(hear)—
that is the end of " peace, retrenchment, and reform." And
what is the position of the Liberal party ? The hon. mem-
ber for Sheffisld (Mr. Roebuck) has nopr eferences; he only
dislikes one side rather less than the other, and curiously
enough he dislikes the people among whom he sits more
than anybody else. (Renewed laughtr.) He has instituted
a comparison between the two benches—l almost think
there are as good fish in the sea as ever were caught—rand

if we lost the present Ministry I do not know that we
should have to record it with inconsolable regret, for I think
it might be possible to replace them. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) Let us see how this Ministry is constituted.
Let me take the noble lord—and I would speak of him with
every respect, because a more active and able man has sel-
dom existed in this country. (Cheers.) I might say of
him that " panting Time toils after him in vain "
Cer-
tainly he is facile prineeps, and he is cert:Lniy_ the liveliest
if not the youngest man on t.} ..e 'Treasury bench. The
noble lord deserves great 'Lredit for his admirable manage-
ment of affairs ckeing a long course of years. He has
acted with all, sorts of men, and has been associated with
men holding all classes of opinions. Why, sir, he has
contrived—and it is a most extraordinary feat—to con-
ciliate both the Low Church party and the High Tories ;
the Record acknowledges his inspiration, and the hon. mem-
ber for North Warwickshire (Mr Newdegate) bows to his
influence. These are great feats. But what is his policy ?
His domestic policy seems to be to remain stationary. His
foreign policy up to this day has been pugnacious and pro-
gressive. But now he is about to achieve the most wonder-
ful feat of his life. He is about to go to the country as the
apostle and minister of peace, and will be supported by my
hon. friend the member for Birmingham. That is the moet
extraordinary feat of the whole. (Laughter.) Well then, sir,
as to the cabinet, it is a museum of curiosities, (Laughter.)
There are some birds of rare and noble plummage both alive
and stuffed—(much laughter)—but there is a difficulty in
keeping up the breed of those sweet birds, and it was found
necessary to cross the Whig heed with the famous Peelite
breed. I will do them the justice to say that they have a
very great and able minister among them in the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and it is to his measures alone that they
owe the little popularity and the little support they get
from this Liberal party; but it cannot be said, either by
their enemies or friends, that their supply of measures has
been prolific. Then there is my right hon. friend who is not
connected with the Whigs by family (Mr Gibson). (Laugh-
ter.) He seems like a "fly in amber," and the wonder is
how he got there ; and the hon. members for Rochdale and
Birmingham must, I think, have been disappointed in this
"young man from the country." (Loud laughter,) When
he married into the family we expected some Liberal
measures from them, but the hon. gentleman seems to have
become indolent and less quarrelsome under the guidance
of the noble lord. Well, sir, what is there to be? We
know by the traditions of the great Whig party that they
will cling to the vessel, if not like shipwrecked sailors, at
least like those tastaceous marine animals which adhere to
the bottom, thereby clogging the engines and impeding
the progress, (Laughter.) Should a vote of this house dis-
place the administration, what are the Liberal party to do ?
Well, sir, if I might advise the Liberal party I should say
they may be perfectly happy as to the issue of this great
duel. They are somewhat in the situation of lago when he
says, "Whether Cassio kill,Roderigo,or Roderigo
or each kills the other," so much they gain. (Laughter.)
Nay, sir, even should this Parliament determine on termi-
nating its own existence and that of the Government, they
will find some consolation in the knowledge that the fune-
ral oration will be pronounced by the hon. member for
North Warwickshire, and that a friendly hand will inscribe
on their mausoleum, " Rest, and be thankful." (Loud
cheers from both sides of the house.)
Mr WHITESIDE described the foreign policy of the
Government as inconsistent, capricious, and mischievous,
and declared that he had no hesitation whatever in saying
that the confusion which reigned had sprung from that
policy. He held that they had no right to give advice to
foreign powers unless they were also prepared to assist them.
He supported the resolutions of his right hon: friend, be-
cause he was jealous of the honour of his country and con-
servative of her glory and her institutions ; and because he
felt that the Foreign Minister had deeply erred, and lowered
the just influence of England throughout the nations of the

earth.
Mr MONSELL opposed the motion.
Mr B. COCHRANE supported it, urging that, were the
terms in which it was couched much stronger, they would
not have unjustly described the policy and conduct of the
Government.
Lord ELCHO saw no ground for a vote of censure on
Ministers.
The O'DONOGHUE denied that there was any com-
pact among the Roman Catholic members to vote against
the Government, or that there was any truth in the rumour
that any agents of the Pontifical Government had under-
taken a mission to England to bring pressure on the Catho•
lie members. For his own part he would vote in favour of
the resolutions, because the Government had done nothing
for Ireland,
Sir S. NORTHCOTE observed that the Opposition did
not wish to rest their case upon any particular despatch or
any particular act of the Government, but that they charged
a general want of sagacity and of statesmanship in the whole
course of negotiations. The indictment was, not that the
conduct of the Government had humiliated the country, but
that she had lost a portion of her just influence in Europe.
Mr CLAY was of opinion that if the policy advocated by
hon. gentlemen opposite were adopted we should have been
landed in a European war six months ago.
Mr WALPOLE did not believe the allegation that the
population of Schleswig and Holstein were the cause of the
troubles that had broken out in the North of Europe. On
the contrary, the disturbing causes were an importation
from a foreign land, fomented, encouraged, and
excited by a revolutionary spirit under the guise
of patriotism. He believed that her Majesty's
Ministers had adopted a feeble, inconsistent, and hesitating
policy which had led Denmark to believe that even at the
eleventh hour England would give her material assistance.
As in the case of the Crimean war, "too late" was written
on every act of the Government. So it had proved in re-
ference to the Dano-German question. In the former in-
stance they went on drifting and drifting until they drifted
into war. In the present case they had drifted into shame
and disgrace, They had been too late in applying to other
Powers for co-operation ; too late in not protecting Den.
mark before the Eider was crossed ; too late in protect-
ing the islands tefore they were taken ; and they would be
too late in protecting Copenhagen ; for it appeared that all
they intended to do was to reconsider their decision in the
event of the city being taken and the King made a prisoner
of war. It was therefore the duty of the house to speak out,
and throw the responsibility on the shoulders to which it
belonged. This was the constitutional course to adopt, and
as he considered the resolutions of Mr. Disraeli were framed
with that view ho would support them.

Lord PALMERSTON then rose, and was received with
most enthusiastic cheering, which lasted several minutes.
When it had subsided, the noble lord said—Mr Speaker, if
any doubt could have existed when the notice of this mo•
tion sas first made as to its object and importance that
doubt must have been fully dispelled by the debate which
had ensued upon it, for we are now told, fairly and plainly,
that, although the words imply simply a censure upon one
act of the Government, yet it is intended as a vote of "
no
confidence"—(hear, hear)—and that the issue which the
house is called upon to determine is, whether gentlemen on
this side, or gentlemen on that side, should be charged
with the conduct of the affairs of the country. (Cheers.)
Now, sir, I object to much that has passed in this debate,
but to two things mainly—first of all, to the attempt to Se-
parate my noble friend at the head of the Foreign-i:fic
TM
uuti
ho nt a
tol havett m pt,
been a most
(cheers)—from the rest of his colleagues —a
-aost uncons.ti-
greprobated'an attempt which
in office,. know the joint ot attempt,eat
j:
ay those who, having been
Cabinet. (Rene
ty of the members of the
my hon, col' w: p
a cheering.) Sir, I declare on the part of
what ti-
_aagues, that we are all equally responsible for
_..te noble lord has done—(loud cheers)--,and, there-
.,re, I trust we shall not hear any mere Of these personal
attacks upon Lord Russell, butt that whatever censure any
man may wish to cast ett the conduct of the Government
may be aimed at the Government itself, and not at any in-
dividual member of it, (Cheers.) Now, sir, I also regret
deeply for my country the pains which have been taken by
many of those who have takes part in this debate to villify
and degrade—(cheers and counter-cheers)—that country.
(Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition.) Not content
with blaming the Government, which they were entitled
to do, and endeavouring to prove that we were wrong in
every step of these transactions, they have maintained
that England is :degraded—(Oppositlon cheers)—and
that she has sunk in the estimation of foreign
countries, And when? ane since when? Since the ter-
mination of the Conferences—(No, no, from the Opposition)
—which only closed a few days ago. Now, sir, I deny, on
the part of the country) the statemeuts which have been
made. (Ministerial cheers.) I say that England etande
as high as she ever did—(cheers and eonntot sheets)—and
that those who think that she has fallen in the estimation
or the world are not the men to whom the honour and
' dignity of England ought to be confided. (Loud cheers.)
Well, sir, this bill of indictment was most singularly
brought in by the right hon. gentleman who proposed the
motion, because in the early part of his speech, step by
step, he expressed his approval of what Government had
done. He began by admitting that the treaty of 1852 was,
when it was concluded, a wise and good arrangement.
He could not deny that all the Governments Who Were
parties to that treaty had congratulated trith other upon
having made what they then thought—and there were
grounds for the opinion—was a settlement that would en-
sure the peace of Europe. And we have been told
that the Prussian Minister of that eay, the Chevalier de
Bunsen, refused to put b.
'.
.te name to a certain protocol, I
ti, r.k I am right in, saying
that so eager was the Prussian
Government for that treaty, that the draft was sent from
Berlin to London with a special order to the Chevalier de
Bunsen that he was to sign it such as he received it, and
not to make any objection of his own. Well, then, what-
ever may have been the feelings of the Chevalier de Bunsen,
who was known to be a very enthusiastic champion of Ger-
man unity at that time, I say those feelings were not shared
by his Government—and it is a misrepresentation to infer,
that because of the objections he may have felt, Prussia
was not sincere in concluding that treaty. Saxony was
That
haerrnanagneireshet.ovvieornlamteedntnsohourirdhhtse.invlittedsinatopcl
equally pleased with the arrangement that was then made,
that t
the law of succession Yh
a wn
ga es
legally, which they diet—that the
King,, by his prerogative, should be empowe red to name
his successor, which he cessor should did—and that that suc-
be acknowledged by th e contracting
powers as heir to the Danish crown ; and that the States
which were then and had been for a long time under the .
sway of the Xing of Denmark should, as ;far as the objet