The Sun.
London, England, 1852-05-15 00:00:00

without the bribe of a bounty. The whole value of the
system of militia dep. eded upon good e fficers, end if the
re:lit:a were without the sense of and tuberdinetz
tion, no matter whether they were t.fficient or non-
e ffi. if nt, th; y would be a curse to the c‘ untry. If his
will prevailed, he world not permit any man to enlist in
the militia unless ho could read and write. He leas sa
ti.tiPd it a bounty was given that Gem rnnent would not
get tbe .proper sort of men, 118 men of rerpeotisbility
would refuse to stand in the ranks nil men whose only.
inducement to,,volunteer v. its the tevpto.ion of the
bounty. There were 2,000,000 of militiamen in the Mitecl
States enrolled.without bounty..-7(N0.)
,J.Je asserted that
was so, but then J.e admitted enro;tnent was corn-
pulsmy— (flea*)—and eveiy man must servo in the mi-
titta in America. It they refused to serve they were
fin-0.-- (Hear.)
there was the fart that America
had 2,000 000 cf volunteers wi,hout any bounty. 1-1;5
avgument was that a better class of men. would be oh-
tam md without Heap with a Vuroy. 110 la,gguls therel
robe, to rn,,ve the omission ol tell words from the clause
which had rer renee"to boun,ies.
The Al TORNEY-0 EN ER L said the amendment
of the Nl.e...rnber Was ;o mit everything eerie cting
6uut.tieS in tbeßill. The II n. Gentleman articipated
etriehtm.;evnidopoersterast wpoeuilsdc;olase
osof eart:oempeerliyotratiesim,:surd , be
weoooidt
the
s-ing. forward to enrol themeelies, and there-
fore tho Hon. Genii, man was desiretis altogether ot,
emitting any inducement to serve, rmc.c-pt by voluntary.
enlistment. The= allusion to Americl was us fortunate,
fur there the enlistment, wes not vollintary, but compul-
sory, under the.,penalty of ane.'• *The
!tary principle of vo-
un
I f
they
might
i,;,!ihattireqedngte lt
of wtahso rweciatyveirty
heardrehdeieennt
tteosteedd,pito,
America: 'I be bounty proposed to he given in the'
fires. nt. Bill was exactly the same in amount as
the boUnty given In the 421 George 111., The.,
militia of tt:at period were obtsintd by the
bounty of 61.; and what was then accomplished
vsa's expected *to bo accomplished again. ,119,
would tick the House to see bow inconsi,tent would be
the position of the. Committee if they adopted the
amendment of the Hon. Gentleman. They had over and
over again heard it stated that the ballot was a most un-,.
popular measure. And why ? Because it would force
men into the service; and because men disliked the ser-
vice. But the lion. Gentleman, by his amendment, said;

You don't Want any bounty ;.the service is so attractive;,.
Ipu will find more. than a sufficient number of men to
supply all your wants." Btit Government were not of
that opinion, and H. n. Gentlemen on the other side were
net otthat opieion-e-they said. thu service was unpopular,
and on that account they wished to,avoid the ballot, pro-
vided they could get men by voluntary enlistment; Go=
vernment belieied the service would pot be popular
without some attraction as a bounty; and as they desired
to resort to- the ballet only as
.a.latt resort, they said
they would i:Sfer.a beenty to ieduce'persons to, volubteer,
believing, by that, means, the quote would .be mode up.,
The o7;ly question therefore for the House to decide was,
whether. they would agree wish the Hon. Gentleman
(Sir H. Verney) in thinking the service was so Pleasant
that men would volunteer readily,.or with the Hon.
Members for the West Riding end Manchester, that,
it was so unpopular that men would not be got
with-
out the ballot. • ,
Mr. HUME believed that all young men, in ease of
danger, if they had leistire, Would enrol theinielvee
eerily withput a bounty.. That would be the best. way
to inculcate,a martial spirit in the country, if such should
be considered desirable. Ho wanted, however, to aveirt
that. He wished the Government would ailove otieg
men to enrol themselves as volunteers. He was certain
a Sufficient number would present theuiselves. He 'be
lieved that offers he(1.13( en made to the Government frtml•
different parts of the country by le rsons anxious to fortes
volunteer cerps, tend he wished to ,know why those effsrs
had been d. .
Mr. M °WATT thought there Was not much chance
of obtaining the proposed militia force without a, bounty.
It the bate Gov, rnreent, had.not tirouglit in a Militia Bill,
but bed peretii ted velueteer corp, a formidable force
would have been rais, d.
mr. G11330.1i thought the Bill was rather roughly
treated by its birode. The Hon. end Gallant Member
for Bedford wished to get rid of the bounty, and the
Hon. Nl,eiabsr I r Eist Lothinn ()Ejected to the ballot.
He objected to expruclii,g 500,0004 for a force which
they might not be able to asst 'bible. He wished to know
how a men who took the bounty and ahsen,ed himself
Irene drill would' be dealt with. PI hat'weuld be the first
step of proceeding agaite,t seal a Mat'?
The ATrOIVeIEY-GENERAL—Catching him.
Mr. GIBBON— Wien regard to the mithia of the
United States, ho . bad to re rebid
,the House that the
standing army of the 'leiter' StateS did net exceed 9,000
Men. The militia of the United States ir'aS a mere mus-
ter roll of the able bodied inhabitants, and any man
mieht absent himself from drill by paying the mill fine
of 75 cents. In point of fact, the decadence of the mi-
litia system in the United States, was notorious.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the dtuendinent ~• 55
Against it ... ••• ••• 95
Majority ••• ••• ••• —9O
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 11,
In answer to Mr. GIBSON,
The ATTORNEY.GENER&L said that if any man
took the bounty, and did not attend'drill when celled on'
he might be taken Mire a magistrate, fined 101, and in
default of payment committed for six months to the
the House of Correction.

In reply to Mr. RICH,
Mr. WALPOLE said, that with reference to the pay-
ment of the b. unty, the clause gave a power to the
Secretary at War of making such regulations as he,
might think fit. There were certainly objections to pay-
ing the 61 all at once, and unless a discretionary power
was given the Secretary at War to regulate the payment
of the bounty, there would be some danger of losing the
money. Government expected that a sufficient force
would be raised by the offer of 3/. or 41. paid down, or of
a plyment.of 2 u mouth. He believed that reefuits in

the army were plid, 4/. on enlisting, but that 31.85. was
deduced for •thuir lvt, so that only 121. went into the
pocket of the soldier. In 1831 there were raised by
bounty in Middlesex 770 men, and ta 700 of these the
pa) went was made sebkequent to service. If that was
done in 1831, he saw no reason why it might not be
done in 1852.

Mr: MO WATT wiihed to have sonic estimate of the
probable experke of the militia in respect of equipment.
He also wished a more explicit answer as to the mode in
which a man would be dealt with who took the bounty
and did not attend.

Mr. WALPOLE thought that the answer of the At-
torney-General on that point was explicit enough. If
the man did not appear when required, he would be lia-
ble to ha treated as a deserter.
Mr. Rica nnved an amendment in the clause to the

effect that the bounty given to men. in consideration e
tleir enlisting in the militia should in no case exceed
that which was given to her Alje4y's regiments in the
line. Under the clause as it lewd, a bounty of .61 might
be given to persons entei log the miloia, or the bounty
milt he bestowed at the rate of 23 Gl. a month;
wbiuh at the elid of five years would emetrA to 71103.;
end that sum if granted to each.person in a toree or
80,000 oaf"), weu'd lead to a total c witty of 600,000/
New, he thought thet that would be an ex'r.rsgsat
sore to pay in the shape of a bounty to militia re-
c,ults It was true that the sum of 61, or 24. 6f, a
month fur five Spars, was the maximum of 'the bounty;
but he believed th'tt unedueate,i, persona always consi-
dered a max mum in such cases es the sum to which
'hey were fairly Fntltl. d. Be helieved that that arraege-'
m tit would seriously interfere with the succeNs of the
recruiting sergconts for her Majesty's service, whocould
tiler a bourty of 104. only to each recruit.
Mr, ,BERF.SFORD, said .it was not at all intended
that the bounty should re cessarily, be so high as 6/.,
and that sum heel only been eel, ned as a maximum to
which it miglit he possible to resort in some extreme
case. The lion. Gentleman eomptsieed that the bounty
to the militiaman was to be higher than that paid to the
soldier in the line, Bat it should be remembered that
the regular sol ier obtained for himeelf a permanent
provkion, while a persen entering the militia was only
temporarily engaged; aed it was customary in every
branch of businces to k ive higher payments, in proper-
lion to the time of service, to perions who 'received tern=
porary engngewcnte than to those who were permanently
employed. „
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he thought it was but
fur that persons tempera, ily employed should receive
higher remuneration than those who got permanent en-
gagements. But that priciple ought to be confined to
tb:o fixed pay, and ought not to be. extended to the
bounty in the case then under their consideration.
Mr. STANFORD thought, as it was generally ad-
roit.tcd that this was not the-most fficient ,fotee that
pot:lz.d
_ebe formed, it ought to be made as economical as
• Ho could not understand on what principle a
militiaman could receive more
than a man enlisting in
the line. with •
regard to the payment of the bounty.
he was
of opinion that a much better class of men would
be procured
•by Y Paying one-fourth of the bounty on en-
rolment,. and
.the remainder on the completion of the
Mr. RICH said that if
service..
object was to prevent the
militiaman occupying better°b.]
soldier.
:Mr. BRIGHT asked whether
position than the regular
the bounty would be
thoroughly at the disposal of theif?arties, or whether any
Itrhoarat a .militia recruit would
deductions
iu r. B ERwEosuFl do be
Dm
saidade
receive his bounty in money.—(Rear, hear.) lie would
be provided with certain articles of clothing,
not, as a matter of necessity, have to ex Pm • and would
money for
knapsacks, Sec.
Colonel RAWDON regretted the present disposition
of the Committee to exalt the militia cover the regularcover
service. It was a serious matter when the militiamen
was to, put in his.pee:lreit the.whele amount of the
bounty,
wbi!st the private soldier, after thWittsual deduc-
tions for clothing, &0., found himself in possession of
ah,,ut 12?„ or so.
seem to know what the bounty really meant. A sufficient
Capteiti•BOLDEßO said that 1:16n. Gentlemen did not
number of recruits for :the B.; itish,,army could be
'• kit" was ipaid.for
lected together without any bounty at all. When hoops
were raised without the bounty the
by the men by means of deductioes from their pay; but
63. these deductione were complaimd of, a botinty Nv+li
given to cover the:expenses.
,Four r
nolfon to itiducc. them to enter the army. Firstly, want
t c'l'Pl"Yment; secoedly, te!lewiree emlslolthcat (it*.
pr,ntie,,B
to
es—ci! thirdly, iltSOns operated with
aeteltil to the,. - Ithe desire Of RP-
tied fourthly, the.
fullof
iele ra their waster; . •
full Itoow)cdt, t " bounty-
Mr. FIUME said he trcuthe, BD
6° that they were tly required for
the tervie,.. perruunen
But ell men enlis.ted in the
volunteer. principle wa not Mr WALPOLE w: more fully cerried out.
still wished to know why the
or in case of an invasion,
was to give the Wiest infor-
manon. It victim- eers
had no doubt that a force "tirequired on an, emergency,
Inge effitient Ulm the aid
0310 Do
:71411hedraiLtInilitVO, 1;1)0
uAder discheeion, But

THE SUN,

the otj ct of the present Bill was not to raise a force
.
to meet an emergency. The object V/TT.SI to protium
the nucleus of a force susceptible of being turned
" into on army, not immediately, hut prospectively,
When occasion should reqeire. Now, a volunteer
force might refire from the seriice whenever they
plea:cede and would not, therefor., answer the desired
urpose
p
Mr. MOWATT cershlered the bounty too high.
Captain ,noLngito, the contrary, did not think
that men mold be induced to lease their occupations
Without a shfficieneinducernent in money. •
Mr. RICH edhered to hia o f inion, that- the amount
of bounty prcptised, plus shoes, stockinge, .&c.,ereas .ex-
cessive.
After some further discussion, the Committee divided.
Lee run, bers were--e
. For the amendment ... 99
Against it 164
Majority agsintt the Emrndment... 65
The CHAIRMAN having put the question that the
War k be faded up with 61. a's the maximum bounty to be
given'to each man,
Mr, BRIGHT cemplained of the heavy expenditure
hieh this militia force would throW npen the country.
He calculate tf thet the exeeesa of clothing, in addition
to the pay anal bounty, would amount to 1,000 0001, so
that Goveri went were, in r fTect, ceiling on the country
t'er a vete et 1,000,000/. to deeray tho expenses of a force
which wee not at all neceesery, and to which the country
were d toad..dly opposed. He calirc3 upon the Govern-
ment for sem° explanation on this head.
Mr. WALPOLE said diet the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, when he brought forward the budget, stated
ti tit the sum required for the militia force during the
year might be put down at 350,0001, and credit was
given for that sum. Now the Hon. Member for Man-
eheste r said that they. were going to spend 1,000,0001.
,on the force, implying that that statemeet of his Right
tier.. Friend was not the fact. The /lon. Member must
be aware that it was impossible the expenditure could
ern unt to 1,000,0001 during the year.
Mr. BRIGHT begged the Right Hon. Gentleman's
pard n. ,He had never sail anything of the kind. He
had multiplied the sum necessary for the year by the
five years, and stated what he calculated-the gross
amount would be for the five years. He merely said
at ehe vote involved an expenditure of 1,000;0001. He
never meant to say that 1,000,0001. would be required
N. this year.
Mr. WALPOLE said he did not mean to misrepresent
ihe Hon. Gantleman.---(llear, hear.) He was about to
say that the repreaentslon of the Hon. Gentleman was
not founded upon accurate facts, inasmuch as he had
Certainly understood him to say that the expenditure
would be 1,000,000/ for the year. He would ask the Horn
Member what was the meaning of hip statement? Did
the Hon: Member mean to let it go to the country that
the Government were really asking a vote of 1,000,000/
tar this militia force, or that it would cost that sum for
the five years it was embod:ed?—(Hear.) Now, he would
tell him the whole expense of the force for the five years,
but it was right it should be known that such ex-
pense would be spree, i over the five years.— (Hear,
hear.) Ho had stated when he first introduced
the'Bill what he belietVed that expense would be. H.
had the figures' on the former occasion before him, hut
at the present time he had them not. Ho thought.
however, he hed the figures in his recollection. He did
not give the expense of the army, for he believed that
they could distribute 50 000 guns to the Militia withote
putting any expense upon the country. The equipments
2:x to7onc:si , , ors „mid necee,arily extend
of the mere the pay of the officers, and the sundry, al.
lowances which would come into the expenditure. of the
first year, would amount, supposing the whole force of
50.000 men were rai4ed, to 210.0001, the first year. The
f rs
et'er sge,ctohnedoe:
tehanr mt
tihgeh to
uhtel'apyu
fort downthe fiarlsstoanad
ee u r
over the whole
pnri d, he might put down fer the third year 165,0001.
(H.-re the Reef)! We. Gentlenaan appeared to have made
some mistake in he: celeulntions, as he hesitated for a
epeneent or
oOroci/beertshatt,nwV
o-ooLtetkhee
whole eat
eoxrpesnasyn
twee.) The expense would be 915,0001., ex
-the first five •
elusive, of the haunty-3/. a man—which would amoun,
ttr oho
eu2lfl4,loor,crOo r
of
estimate, but he believedlleaetrws.oulldt bmeiagshtneeaxrceeads
pthoas.i
bible the amount.

BARING--Will that include the counties?
Mr. WALPOLE—No; and perh,ps I must add'some•
thing for the arms in the „sFcood year.. if. it be not al-,
lowed for already in the amount of 1,200 0001.
Colette', SIBT-HORP made some strong observation,
tin thq. low,insinua(iona of the Memt•er for Manobestei
as to Enalislluaen deserting for the miserable sum of
31—(Loud cries of " Hear, beat," " Order.")
The CHAIRMAN hoped the Gallant Gentleman
would not use unparliamentary languag.e.
Colonel SIBTHORP was, wry to be urapelled into the
use of strong kr!guaze, but he could scarcely avoid it
when he heard such,libels on.the character of the people
of this couletry.--(Hear, hear.)
Sir F. BARING asked .what expense the counties
Would be putto?
Mr. WALPOLE said ho could hardly answer that.
But if the Government were driven to the. ballot the
bounty would be saved.
. Mr. CARDWELL contended that before the ballot,
was resorted to the lull sum of 61. would be given for
bounty, so that if half the number were not raised by a
31. bounty the expense of raising half by 61. bounty
would amount to the expense of raising all at 31.
Mr. MOWATT persisted that the expense would be
nearly 2,000,000/.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it „, 186
Majority ...--10G
The words " eix pounds" were there inserted in the
clause.

Mr. J. BELL movstl to report progress.
Mr. WALPOLE objected. It was then only half-past
c'even o'oleck, sod it • the Committee would consent to
sit a little hmgcr, ho, on.the part of the Government,
would agree not to procee&withany of the compulsory
clauses that night.
- Mr. MOWATT supported the motion for, reporting
progress, on the ground that the House bad already been
in Cummitt, e six hours at d a half. , -
Mr. GIBSON said there was one important matter
which it was very necessary the Committee sheuld con-
sider with the utmost care—he meant the list of examp
tions. Before proceeding to enact that compulsory mili-
tary service should be resorted to, it was only right, be
thought, that they should decide who were the persons
lio.kole.to nerve, and clearly define the exemptions.
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER—The
eue,tion now before the Committee was whether they
should stop their proceedings at this stage, it being only
half past eleven o'clock. As to the statement of the Hon.
Member (Mr. Mowatt) that they had been sitting on the
:Bits six hours and a half, Zion. Gentlemen on both sides
of the HOUSE; Must know that it was necessary to be pre-
parc:d.on important questions to undergo much greater
fatigue than that._ 11:sides, the Committee had not
shown any sywroms of fatigue, and as it was really an
early hour, the ptoposiaon to arlj.nrn was, he thought,
a oar-tin one --(Hear.) With regard to the information
r( qoired by .Mr. Gibs in, that was a point which did not
arise on the present clays,' of the Bill.
Mr. BELL, at the su,:gestion of Mr. Bright, con•
tenting not to prtss motion to a division,
The ekose, as emended, was ordered to stand put of
the Bid. as were,elso clauses 12 and 13.
The House then resumcd, and
The CII AIRMAN reported progress, and obtained
leNveoto vii sgrin. • •
POOR-LAW BOARD CONTINUANCE BILL.
Sir,J. TROLLOPE moved the order of the day for
going into Ceeemitteo on this Bill.
D STUART. objected to proceeding with the
measure at that hour of the night
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER feared
it was too early to adjourn business, as it was not yet
twelve o'clock, -and, there wire .many orders en the
(twelve (o'clock).
paper.. However ho,would not press, the Bill, as it
seerned , to be objected to.
The Committee was.then postponed till Thursday next.
The Stamp Duties (Ireland) Contionlnce Bill, the
Property-tax Bill, the Registration of Deaths, Births
and Marriages _Bill, the Turnpike Roads (Ireland) Bill,
and the Commons laclosure Acts Extension Bill, were
severally read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Sir J. PAKINGTON, the report
on the Passengers Act Amendment Bill was brought
up, and on the proposition that some amendments be
added,
Mr. CARDWELL was unwilling to interfere with
the bUsiness'of the House, but ho objected to their
taking another stage of the Bill, more especially when
a variety of new matter was about to be introduced in
the shape of •anundments, which the House had had, no
opportunity of considering.
Sir J. PAKINGTON bad no objection to have ti e
amendments printed with the additional clause which be
proposed to introduce.
The Bill was- then committed pro forma, and the
amendments ordered to be pinto&
The Suitors in Chancery Relief Bill went through a
Committee. •
KENNINGTON•COMMON IMPROVEMENT, &c.,
BILL. .
This Bill passed through Committee.
BOROUGH OF WINDSOR.

A new Writ was ordered to issue for this borough, in
the room of Mtljor-General Reid, deceased.
The remaining orders'were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned et a Quarter past One o'clock.

Sequence of many thousands . of persons in AtLhAe
don.), having been unable to obtain a copy of the Great
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reissueT t,
Di
iha
i_
has been
e,
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rh determinede Chart, upon, to -
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ry
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