The Sun.
London, England, 1864-07-23 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening,

The Speaker did not take the chair until 25 minutes to
one on account of there not being 40 members present until
that hour.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following railway tills were read a third time and
passed :—Lancashire and Yorkshire (Blackburn, tic,, lines)
—Caledonian (Glasgow Harbour)—llfracombe—Lancashire
Union—London, Brighton, and South Coast—Rhymney
(Extensions)—Rickmansworth, Amersham, and Cheaham
—West Sussex Junction—Redruth and Falmouth Junc-
tion—Kilkenny Junction—Much Wenlock and Severn
Junction and Wenlock Railway, The Stock District Water
and the Sheila' Charities Bills were also passed,

Arden's Estate Bill was read a second time.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION)

BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
INDIAN MEDICAL SERVICE BILL.

On the order of the day for the consideration of this bill,
as amended,

Mr P. HENNESSY moved the addition of the following
clause, "Any person, being a natural born subject of her
Majesty, who may be desirous of being appointed an assis-
tant in the said forces, shall be admitted to be examined as
a candidate for such appointment." The bill as it at pre.
sent stood entirely put an end to tha competitive system ;
and, although it had been said by the Secretary of State for
India that the system of open competition would,
to a certain extent, remain, he preferred to have it
expressly laid down in the bill. The hon. gentleman then
read an extract from the Lancet, which stated that the mea-
sure, if passed in its present form, would entirely destroy
the efficiency of the East Indian medical service.

Col. SYKES seconded the amendment. He did not see
how the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for India could
object to the words of the proposed addition to the bill be-
cause they were part of the Queen's proclamation to the
people of India. The refusal of the clause was, in effect,
to refuse that to the people of India which had been pro-
misad them by her Majesty's proclamation.
Sir C. WOOD said it was a mistake for any one to
suppose that he was opposed to the competitive
system, because he was the very person who introduced it.
The bill, therefore, was not to abolish the competition, but
it was to enable him to form a staff medical corp for India
from amongst those medical officers in her Majesty's army
who have entered it by competitive service. The Indian
Medical Service was at present very deficient, and he be-
lieved that the Queen's army would be benefitted by that
which he now proposed to do. He did not in the slightest
degree wish to interfere with the regulations at present
in existence in the Queen's army.

Col. NORTH was in favour of the amendment.

3lr BRADY said it was entirely owing to the illibera
treatment the medical men received that there was any:diffi-
culty in the matter. The medical man's pay was touch less
than that of other officers of a similar position, and whilst
that state of things existed, it was impossible to suppose
that gentlemen would enter upon duties of great responsi-
bility without being adequately remunerated for the labour.
The position of the surgeon in the army, as far as rank was
concerned, was that of a eaptain whilst he only reached the
pay of a lieutenant.
Sir C. WOOD said that that state of things had been
altered by advices taken out by the last mail.
Sir J. TRELAWNY opposed the amendment.
A division then took place, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority against the amendment —2o
The amendment was negatived, and the bill ordered to
be read a third time on Monday.

FORTIFICATIONS (EXPENSES) BILL.
This bill was ordered for a third reading on Monday,
CRANBO URNE• STRE ET BILL.

This bill passed through committee.
PILOTAGE ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
The bill was read a third time and passed.
BANK POST BILLS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
POOR REMOVAL BILL,
This bill was read a third time and passed.
STAMP DUTIES ACT (1864) Bill.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNT.

Mr. MASSEY brought up the report, which was agreed
to.
RAILWAY (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered and
agreed to.

DRAINAGE, &c. (IRELAND) BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this bill were also considered
and agreed to.
DEFENCE ACT AMENDMEN r BILL.

This bill passed through committee.--
The sitting was then suspended.
The house resumed at six o'clock.
THE ABERDEEN ACT.

Mr B. OSBORNE gave notice that next session ho
should move to bring in a bill for the repeal of the Aberdeen
Act of 1845, the object of which was the suppression of the
Brazilian slave trade.

SEIZURE OF THE CHINCHA ISLANDS BY THE

SPANIARDS.

In answer to Mr MAGUIRE,

Mr LAYAR I) said that the seizure of the Chincha
Islands by the Spaniards had occasioned great excitement
and sympathy among several of the South American States,
and Venezuela and other States had declared that if these
islands were retained in the possession of Spain, they were
prepared to give their material aid to Peru ; but it appeared
that the Spanish Government disavowed any such inten-
tion, and had stated its readiness to restore the islands as
soon as its claims on Peru had been satisfied. He believed
that the Republic of the Equador had proffered the use of
their harbour to the Spanish authorities.
-VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.
In reply to Mr A. MILLS,

Mr LAYARD also stated that he had received a despatch
from the Governor of Vancouver's Island, conveying a re-
solution of the Legislature, to the effect that the offer of the
Imperial Government to transfer the Crown lands to the
colony did not afford an equivalent for the civil list asked.
This was coupled, however, with the expression of a desire
to be more or less united with British Columbia in sharing
the expense. What the answer of the latter was to the
proposal he was not yet aware, but he had no reason to be-
lieve that it would be a favourable one.
TELEGRAPHIC INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS.
Replying to Sir C, DOUGLAS,

Mr LAYARD said he had not eeen the circular which
was reported by the newspapers to have been addressed by
the French Government to various Powers inviting them
to participate in an international congress for the purpose
of regulating telegraphic communications in Europe. No
such circular, however, had been sent to her Majesty's
Government, for the simple reason that in this country
the telegraphic lines were in the hands of private
companies.

In answer to Mr. G. DUFF,

Mr LAYARD stated that neither her Majesty's Govern-
ment nor the British Ambassador at Constantinople had
directly or indirectly expressed approval of the recent coup
etat of Prince Conza.
THE CAPE OF GOOD HOPE,
In reply to Mr WARNER,

Mr CARDWELL said that no arrangement had been
come to with the Government of the Cape of Good Hope as
to the expenses of possible future wars. The right hon.
gentleman added that he had that day received a despatch
from tho Governor to the effect that the expectations he had
formed with regard to the continua7,ce of tranquillity in
the Transkei were well founded ; that he would spare no
pains to overcome by legitimate means the feelings of dis-
content that were entertained by the Kaffir chief, Kreli,
and that the commander of the forces agreed with him in
the opinion that it was inexpedient to make an advance on
the frontier. _ _

Mr D, GItIFFITH wised to know if the houso wag to
understand that the arrangement between the Porte and
Prince Conza had been arrived at without consulting the
other European Powers.
Mr LAYARD replied that the arrangement made at
Constantinople was with the sanction of all the powers who
were parties to the treaty of Paris.
GOVERNMENT
MANUFACTURING ESTABLISH.
On the motion for the
Monday, adjournment of the houso to

Mr COBDEN called attention to the recent great exten-
sion of the Government manufacturing establishments, con-
tending hat since we commenced business as shipbuilders,

gunmakers, and tailors, the expenditure had enormously
increased, while the efficiency of the service had suf-
fered by the experiment. He argued that, so long as
we maintained establishments in which we had no cus-
tomer but ourselves, so long should we continue to pro-
duce more than we required. What we wanted
was a thorough reform in the buying department,
because if we were ignorant of the quality of the raw ma-
terial, how was it possible that we could produce the best
manufactured article ? As an illustration of the folly of
becoming our own manufacturers and discarding private
workshops, Mr Cobden stated that ironclads, cannon, small
arms, and clothing had all been proved to be defective,
while marine steam engines and compasses which we ob-
tained from private manufacturers, and which constituted
the lungs and brains of our great ships, were always found
efficient. In conclusion, he moved—" That the recent great
extension of Government establishments calls for the atten-
tion of the Government. That it is expedient that steps be
forthwith taken to place each separate establishment as
nearly as possible on the footing of a private manufacturing
concern or a public company, by taking a valuation of the
fixed and floating capital employed, including the value of
the land, and that upon this basis there be an annual stock
taking ; when, after making all the customary deductions
for depreciation of buildings, machinery and plant, interest
of capital, rates and taxes, and other charges, such a price
be charged to the Government departments for articles
supplied as shall preserve the capital intact; and that these
accounts, with a balance sheet, be laid annually on the table
of this house."
Colonel BART rELOT seconded the motion.

Mr MONSELL contended at some length that the
Government establishments were not open to the censure
of Mr Cobden; but that, on the contrary, they were con-
ducted on a good principle, and had been entirely suc-
cessful.

Mr Alderman ROSE opposed the motion, and expressed
his hope that the Government would not act upon the re-
commendations contained in it, which would leave them
again at the mercy of contractors.

Mr WHITE proclaimed his complete adherence to the
principle for which Mr Cobden contended, insisting that it
was the duty of the Government to check the overgrown
establishments of which the hon. gentleman had com-
plained.

Mr. CORRY defended the policy of Lord Derby's Go-
vernment in making a considerable addition to our wooden
fleet, Re considered that, with our limited information at
that period, the Admiralty would not have been justified
in ordering the construction of a large number of iron plated
ships.

Mr CHILDERS replied to the objections of Mr Cobden
so far as the manufacturing establishments of the dockyards
were concerned, and stated that it was the intention of the
Admiralty to take stock hereafter of all the plant in their
possession on the first day of the year.
Colonel DICKSON supported the motion, and argued
that the whole system of clothing the army might be greatly
improved by trusting to private contract.

The Marquis of HARTINGTON said that for ten years
past there was not so little spent as in the present; and yet
the hon, member for Rochdale had sat still while the Go-
vernment were increasing their establishments ; and when
those establishments had reached limits which had not been
contemplated, the hon. member called attention to the fact
that they were extended. What the hon. member proposed
to substitute for them he did not,he confessed, clearly under-
stand. The hon. member accused the Government of hav-
ing become manufacturers because they were bad buyers;
but he did not think the hon. member had clearly established
that point. The temptation to contractors to supply cheap
rather than good articles was a very great one, and he did '
not know how excellence could be secured except by a very
rigid system of inspection, which the hon. member did not
appear to favour. Great stress had been laid by the right
hon. gentleman opposite upon the establishment of the
laboratory at Woolwich ; but that laboratory had become
an absolute necessity. (Hear, hear.) He could not see how
the Government maeutactories could be made answerable
for what was called the failure of the Armstrong guns, be-
cause if the statement was accurate that the gun had failed,
that would not be the fault of the factory, but of the scien-
tific advisers who had recommended the gun and were an-
swerable for it. It was said it was a mistake to enter into
a contract with the Elswick Works, and at the same time to
appoint Sir W. Armstrong the superintendent of the fac-
tory. But that had nothing to do with the statement of
having manufacturing departments ; and as for tenders, the
fact that there were only two or at most three tenders sent
in for the supply of the cast-iron guns, was sufficient to
show that but few houses were willing to erect the machi-
nery and to take the trouble that was required for the
manufacture of guns. As to Elswick, the Government must
either give a guarantee to the company for the repayment
of a certain portion of the capital expended in plant, or else
they must have ordered of the company such a supply of
guns as would have repaid them for the immense outlay on
their stock. Now, from the first day the manufacture of the
Armstrong gun was commenced, Sir W. Armstrong and
others had been continually improving upon it, and if the
Government had entered into large contracts for guns, they
would have been obliged to accept many of an inferior kind,
or would have had to pay the company an enormous amount
of compensation. With regard to the Enfield factory, the
hon. gentleman had said a good deal about the former sys-
tem of purchasing the rifles in pieces from different firms.
This was not by any means due to the Government, but to
the fact that th© trade was then carried en in that way in
Birmingham, and was so carried on at this moment; but
as each part of the rifle required to be separately inspected
before it was put together, no delay was caused by that
system. Papers laid on the table of the house had shown
the shortcomings of contractors in this respect, and he
reminded the honourable gentleman that it was the Go-
vernment, and not the private manufacturers, who had
first produced the machinery which was now used to a
great extent by the trade in Birmingham and London. The
establishment that had found no friends in that debate was
the clothing establishment at Pimlico. Now, a great part
of the expense of that establishment—such as the erection
of buildings, and the hire of land—was not incurred through
the factory at Pimlico, but through the establishment there
for the reception ane inspection of clothing received from
contractors. Pimlico only made clothing for 40 battalions
of the line, and shell jackets and trousers for the rest. Con-
tractors still made clothing for 53 battalions, and also for the
post office and metropolitan police. This very article
of clothing showed to what an extent the system of con-
tracting was likely to satisfy them. There was now only
one clothing contractor—a constituent of the hon. member
for Limerick—who had driven the rest out of the field, and
it seemed to him if they were to give up the manufactories,
they would be left in the hands of one or two contractors.
With regard to the balance-sheets the object had been to
show to the House, as accurately as possible, what the work
done by the establishments was. The account the hon.
gentleman had proposed would be a purely fictitious one,
and he was sure if they were to resort to it the hon.
gentleman would be the first to accuse them of something
like cooking the accounts. The hon gentleman wished them
to pay rates and taxes. They did not pay rates and taxes,
therefore such an account would be purely fictitious. He
believed the accounts showed accurately and fairly what
was the price to the country of these armaments, and he
believed that, whatever might have been the question
before they got the machinery, now that they had it their
system was the most useful and economical. He believed
also that on that account there was now a great saving to
the country as compared with the cost of purchase from
private manufacturers. No member of the House could
be more anxious than the War Department was that
the accounts should be presented accurately to the House.
All the accounts sent to Woolwich gave it as their opinion
that the accounts of the establishment there were perfectly
fair and correct. He himself could not say whether they
were or nor, but he thought it would have been much bet-
ter if the hon. member for Rochdale had trusted to the
opinions of commercial men rather than come down to that
house and say that these accounts were worth nothing at
all. He remembered the hon. member speaking in very
sweeping terms of the extravagance of all Government fac-
tories, but to-night he confessed that the factory at Enfield
had been worked at a profit. If the expenditure at these
establishments were wasteful, it must be the result of bad
management, and certainly the honourable member had not
pointed out that mismanagement. He did not believe there
was that mismanagement, while, on the other hand, Go-
vernment establishments were able to avail themselves of
trading upon a very large scale, and of their being in con-
stant employment. _ _

The discussion was continued by Sir M. Peto, General
Peel, and Captain Jervis.
Mr LAIRD was of opinion that construction and repair
should be carried on in both public and private dockyards.
Mr NEWDEGATE thought the house was indebted to
Mr Cobden for having elicted a very useful discussion.
The subject then dropped, and the motion for the adjourn-
ment was agreed to.

In reply to a question,
Lord PALMERSTON said the house would meet on
Monday at three o'clock, and sit continuously.
Several bills were forwarded a stage, and the house ad-
journed at five minutes past two.

THE ASSAULT ON A LADY NEAR GLASGOW.—On
Wednesday the woman and boy who witnessed to some
extent the cruelties perpetrated upon Miss Adie on Satur-
day evening last near Glasgow, appeared before tha autho-
rities and made a stateieent as to their knowledge of the
fats of the case already made public. Their statements are
corroborated by the depositions of Miss Adie. ZV e under-
stand that the young lady was on Wednesday no better
than on the previous evening.
In the Foreign and Colonial Produce Markets
during the last few days there has not been much
animation. Tito public sales of tea have been con-
cluded without any material change as regards
prices. Sugars have been rather dull and have
shown less firmness, while a moderate business has
been reported in coffee, rice, and cocoa without any
material change as regards values. In the tallow
market there has been a fair business transaction,
at steady rates, for both present and forward
delivery.