The Sun.
London, England, 1852-03-30 00:00:00

TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH. 3O, 1852.

nary preparations in order to complete the work
of invasion which formerly would have occupied a i
month could now be socomplished in a night, and it,
therefore, became of essential importance if the
House wished to render the coast secure from
attack to see that our navy was placed upon
an efficient footing. Much had been done since the
Duke of Wellington, in 1847, warned us of our defence-
less state, but still more remained to be done if
the country desired to teach foreign nations
that not only an invasion but an attack upon our coast
was impracticable and impossible, and he had no hesita-
tion in confessing that before many of our ships
of war could be rendered fit for sea the services of no

less than 3,000 ladditional men would be necessary.
Such being the case, the responsibility of her Ma-
jesty's :present advisers would be at once apparent
to the House and the country, ancrshe was
convinced when all these circumstances came to be
duly and dispassionately considered it would bo at
once admitted that the Government would have
been grossly wanting in their duty had they
not prepared measures for increasing the in-
ternal defences of the country, and placing the
navy in a state of complete efficiency, by which
means alone the enemy could bo kept at bay.
The Admiralty had conceded the principle advocated
by the Honourable Gentleman, in regard to. almost
all their contracts with mail steam-packets.
There were now fifty-one vessels employed on the mail
service, which were required by the Admiralty to be
fitted for the purposes of war. He could assure
the Honourable Member that the present board entirely
concurred in his proposition, and sincerely desired that
it might be carried into effect; but as the navy estimates
for the year had been agreed, the Government bad no funds
at present to meet the additional cost. The ex-
pense was a great consideration, and he was afraid
the Honourable Member had rather underrated

it. There was also another objection to be taken into
account—the crews of the mercantile marine bad great
objections to be placed under martial law; but
that was a matter of detail, not of principle. The
Admiralty would rejoice heartily if every steam vessel
in the country could be rendered subservient to
our defence; and he was not at all prepared
to say that, by judicious economy in other
branches of the service, so lofty a result
might not be arrived at without any very considerable
expense.—(Hear, hear.) When ho said the Admiralty
accepted the proposition, be did so in no niggardly
spirit, but in the hope that a still better feeling
would exist between the royal navy and the mercantile
marine.—(Cheers.
Colonel SCOBLE considered that the statement of
the lion. Member, the Secretary to the Admiralty, was
very satisfactory, and he thought it would
go far to show that the country was perfectly safe.—
(Cheers.) The speech should properly have pre-
ceded the debate on the militia last night, for
it would have dissipated the doubts which many
Honourable Members entertained with regard to the
defence of the country. He rejoiced that the
Admiralty had thought proper to avail themselves of
every means of defence for the purpose of guarding the
British channel.
Admiral STEWART rejoiced in the employment of
mercantile steamers in cases of emergency, bnt ho
could not shut his eyes to the fact that in the mixed erews
which manned them there might be great difficulty in
obtaining that amount of discipline which was necessary
in all vessels employed as a national defence.
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

such is inferred to be the case from the house of Roths-
child baying consented to act as bankers to the
new undertaking. At the various other continental
bourses there were no transactions calling for remark. The
letters from Berlin state an expectation of a better supply
of bills on London after the opening of the Baltic ports, but
the demand for the interior of Germany seems to reuder
any large shipments of grain to this country impro-
bable. At St. Petersburgh the markets are quiet, and
the rate of exchange continues without the least varia-
tion. Regarding the projected railway from Charkoff to
Theodoaia, on the Black Sea, nothing positive has yet been
ascertained. The scheme originated with private parties,
who are endeavouring to obtain a Govercfment guarantee
of 4 per cent., without which it is scarcely likely to be
carried out. Its length would be about 350 or 400
miles, and a line of about 450 miles from Charkoff up to
Moscow would be requisite to complete the communi-
cation with St. Petersburgh. With regard to the working of
the St. Petersburgh and Moscow line, it is stated to have
suffered no interruption during the winter. There is only
one train per day, and the passenger traffic is very small,
while in the transport of goods a serious competition is kept
up by the sledges, which carry them at a lower rate.— Times.
There was a meeting yesterday of the shareholders
in the Agua Fria (Californian) Mining Company, which was
very numerously attended. The object was to receive a
statement from Mr. Wright, of San Francisco, relative to
the prospects of the property, and also as to the title of the
lease. '.[tie claims of Colonel Fremont to the Mariposa dis-
trict were freely discussed, and it was elicited that he had
placed the whole of the questions arising out of his leases
in the hands of Messrs. Lawford and Co., the legal ad-
visers of Messrs. Baring, with the view of dealing
impartially with all the parties interested. Colonel
Fremont was not present, but this announcement,
as well as the various other explanations relative to the
origin of his title, gave satisfaction. With regard to the
proceedings of the Agua Fria Company, it was stated that
the directors had endeavoured to exercise great economy in
expenditnre, and that they now possessed 50.0001. invested
in Consols and other available securities. They had already
started a portion of their staff to California, and the re-
mainder would shortly proceed with the necessary ma-
chinery. In the course of the discassion some severe ques-
tions were put respecting sales of shares, &c., but these were
answered in a manner that met approval.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE 01 -LORDS, March 29.
DEPOSITION OF THE AMEER ALI MOURAD.
(Continued from our Third Edition.)
Lord BROUGHTON said he should not have presumed to
rise before the Noble Earl, the First Minister, if this matter
concerned her Mnjeety'd present Government, or if he were
about to speak tor any but those who were immediately
answerable for that proceeding. If that injustice had been
committed, or if there were that gross violation, not only of
the substance, but of the forms of common equity, to which
the Noble Earl had alluded, he (Lord Broughton) alone was
answerable for it, he having been President of the Board of
Control at the time of those proceedings, and having autho-
rised the sending to India of the dispatch by which this
Prince had been tried, and unjustly, according to the Noble
Earl, but justly, as he (Lord Broughton) should show their
Lordships, deprived of those ill-gotten possessions which be
had acquired. By the courtesy of the Right Honourable
Gentleman who now presided over the Board of Control, he
had been enabled to refresh his memory with regard to
these transactions, and as they had heard the precise and
admirable statement as far as it went of the Noble Earl, he
hoped they would now lend him their attention while he
(Lord Broughton) stated the facts according to his know-
ledge of the matter. In the early part of the Noble
Earl's statement he had with sufficient accuracy intro-
duced to them the charactor and position of this Indian
Prince. It was quite true that he was a man of consider-
able importance, that he had rendered services to the British
Government, and had taken taken a distinguished part in the
proceedings in Scinde. What sort of services these were,
and what kind of distinction he had acquired, he should how-
ever presently show them. He was, as the Noble Earl had
stated, the third son of a chieftain in the upper portion of
Scinde, who died sometime ago, and left three sons. The
eldest was Meer Roostam Khan, the second was Meer Ali
Khan, and the third Meer Ali Mourad, who was considerably
younger than his brothers. Now when the father of these
three princes died he divided his property into four equal
portions, of which he gave one to each of his sons, but left
an additional fourth to the eldest son, the rail, with the
headship, or turban. The brothers, after the death of their
father, went on amicably tegether until after the death of
the second brother, who was succeded by his son Meer
Nussen Khan, who took a considerable part in the transac-
tions of Scinde. In a short time these princes quarrelled
among themselves, the eldest brother, Meer Roostam, and
his nephew, taking part against Ali Mourad, who wished to
secure to himself a larger share of power. There
was a long struggle, which at last broke out into
open hostilities, and a battle was fought. Ali Mourad
was victorious, completely defeating Roostam Khan and
Nussen Khan. He then compelled them to sign a treaty
which was, in fact, the basis and cause of most of the com-
plaints which had since been made against Ali Mourad. By
that treaty certain lands were given up to Ali Mourad.
These were the fruits of victory, which, if he had behaved
well afterwards, no one would have wished to dispute with
him, and which he would have had a clear right to. But he
was not satisfied with the legitimate fruits of vietory, be-
cause, as it clearly appeared, he did afterwards contrive to
substitute for the leaf of the Koran on which the treaty was
signed another by which he obtained possession of a certain
quantity of land to which he had no right whatever. By so
doing 'he imposed on the British Government, and made
them believe he was a person of much greater importance
than he really was. That was pretty well, but it was not
all, nor anything like all. When Sir Charles Napier
entered Scinde at the head of the Indian forces, by order
of the Earl of Ellenborough, Ali Mourad persuaded his
brother, Meer Roostam, to resign the headship of
the family, and with that to give up certain lands
attached to that dignity ; and, as he should show, he did
that by the advice of Sir Charles Napier himself. Meer
Reostam, indeed, denied that he had ever wished to do so ;
but said he was induced to take that course at the express
instance of the British general, who refused to protect him
unless he gave up his dignity as Reis to Ali Mourad. Ali
Mourad entered into another agreement in December 1842,
by which he undertook to give his brother compensivion for
what he had surrendered. This agreement was jointly
signed by him and Ali Mourad, but the messenger who was
sent with it to Sir Charles Napier was intercepted, and the
document taken from him, so that Sir Charles Napier knew
nothing of its existence. In consequence of this transaction
Ali Mourad did not give to his brother Roostam the indem-
nity agreed on. This was not only a cheat practised on
Roostam, but on the British Government, as the territories
in question became confiscated by the conquest of Scinde.
The next thing on the part of Ali Mourad was to persuade
his brother Roostam that Sir Charles Napier intended to
place him in custody, upon which representation Roostam
took to flight, and this was the immediate cause of hostili-
ties between the British and the Scindians. Of this there
could be no doubt, as it was declared by the Ameers in the
conference on Feb. 13, 1843. On that occasion they said
if the things which were taken away from them by Ali
Mourad were not restored to them they must fight for their
bread. It was not his intention to enter into the
details. He was sorry the question had been entered into,
and told the Noble Earl previously that no good could result
from it. Their Lordships might ask, after the conquest of
Scinde, and that Sir Charles Napier had taken possession
of that country, why there had been no suspicion of this
forgery. The fact was that it was suspected, and there was
a memorandum at the Bombay Government of a letter from
Sir Charles Napier which contained information of these
frauds. It stood recorded at the Government of Bombay
against Ali Mourad that he had appropriated land in Sinde
which belonged to the British Government. In fact so early
as 1847 Sir Charles Napier became cognisant of this fact.
Sir G. Clarke, Governor of Bombay, went to Scinde and
looked into the case, of which he entertained no doubt.
Mr. Pringle also looked into the case, and reported that he
had AO doubt of the infidelity of Ali Mourad. Not satisfied
with this the commission was appointed. To this the
Noble Earl objected that military men had been placed
upon it. It was not the first time military men were placed
upon such commissions. Major Jacobs, who was ,one of
them, was distinguished, not only as a military man, bat
as an able man in the manner in which he conducted affairs
on the borders of Scinde, where he was in charge. Ali
Mourad was himself present at the investigation. He exa-
mined the witnesses, but in the result the fraud was made
clear, and the decision was against Ali Mourad. The report
of the commission was sent to the Governor-General, who
examined the evidence, and returned it to the Governor of
Bombay. The Governor-General, as well as the Governors
of Bengal and Bombay, gave their opinions in accordance
with the report of the commission, which was finally sent
to this country. There was no difference of opinion on the
subject either in this country or in India. He saw au article
in an Indian newspaper, in which it was suggested that Ali
Mourad ought to be hanged, and it insinuated it was well
for him that he did not live in the times of a Clive or a
Hastings. If it had not been for the conduct of Ali Moored
the war would not have broken out. If they had known as
much before as they did after the war in Scinde, it would not
have taken place, and the effusion of blood might have been
avoided. This man was guilty of fraud towards his own re-
lations, perfidy to his own countrymen, and of a betrayal
of the parties to whom he was indebted for his position. His
guilt was a complication of crime. He obtained these lands
from his brother by fraud, which he concealed from the
British Government, and now that they knew how
he got them, they were bound to act. It would not have
been sufficient punishment to have made hies restore
to his brother the lands he had deprived him of.
Some said that nothing at all ought to be given to Ali
Mourad, but he thought a middle course was preferable,
and a dispatch was transmitted to Earl Dalhousie, with in-
structions that if the Indian Government, upon reconsidera-
tion, thought that Ali Mourad was entitled to his patrimo-
nial property, they might give it to him. Lord Dalhousie
directed troops to proceed to " Moulton, to enforce the full
penalty. He was now in possession of everything_he ould
q
have had if he had not committed this crime. Be
that the Indian Government should be above all susp
at the same time they ought to be very ought to
conduct to the high functionaries in kind.
a little blind
be very kind to their virtues, and sometimess would ex
-
to their imperfections. He hoped their Lordship"ulars in eying an
ruse him for entering into so many p t_
'nor hoped it was suffi-
unvarnished tale of the transaction, blame-- (Hear.)
a from
cleat to uphold the Indian GovernmentH aid, if it required any-
catl_thioeus in their
The Earl of ELLENBOROUG
h Noble Baron. If it was
authority, it was the speechAofli Mourad had been deprived of
upon the charge of forg
"Orotund the matter, but he was
thing to convince him that t
his estates he could und
hefaovree
pthaeninshateiciv
unconnected with that charge.
dealt with upon matters unconnected tpreoceedings wanted judicial
and would have laid with the
He would have
every native prince in India, and he
and the Dunbar ethperisntactees
doubt as to the result, namely, that while
w°loeucldasneotb
should have
have
deposed the individual, they would have
they woul r
a
j
.
preserved. the
of the individual.
the crime With
respect to Sir Charles
• his connexion with this matter, and his
Napier, present
knowledge of Ali Mourad, no doubt he had suspicions as
to the validity of the document, but he had no proof that it
was forged. When Ali Mourad came to him for letters of.
introduction to Lahore, Sir Charles said he might have them
it he would deliver up the deed which he believed him to
have in his possession. The reply was, that he had left it
at Moulton, so that it never was produced at all, and no
proceedings could be taken upon it. He could only say, in
conclusion, that taking the statement of the Noble Baron
himself in reply, it was in his opinion quite clear that the
Government of India had in this case gone beyond its powers,
and had acted most improperly.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGEITON said he would not have gone into
these matters had not the Noble Earl passed such a high
eulogium upon Ali Mourad.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said, what he stated with
respect to Ali Itlourad was this:--As far as his political re-
lations were concerned, he was faithful to his country. His
troops were at the disposal of the Indian Government, and
political fidelity in India was, in his opiniota, a peculiar re-
commendation which ought to have been remembered when
dealing with these other matters.

The Earl of DERBY said he concurred with the Noble
Earl who had just sat down, and who had so ably brought
this subject before them, in the hope that the time would be
far distant when, either in that House or in the other House
of Parliament, the complaints of any of her Majesty's sub-
jects might not freely be brought forward, listened to, ant?
advocated with that sincerity which had characterised the
advocacy of the Noble Earl. . But he must add his own wish
that whenever complaints may be made against those who
were invested with the power of the Government in distant
parts of the empire, there would never be wanting Members
of that house to defend them against these attacks with the
same power, ability, and clearness as had been shown that
night by the Noble Baron.—(Hear, hear.) After the very
clear and satisfactory explanation which had been given by
the Noble Lord of the course which the Government, of
which he was a member had pursued, it was not necessary
for him to enter into any details upon the subject, except to
state that be believed the guilt of Ali Mourad had been
clearly proved, and that his punishment was no more than
the case demanded,—(Hear.) He would be unworthy of
the position in which he now stood if he was not prepared
to take his share of the responsibility of these transactions,
simply because they had occurred under a former Govern-
ment. If he understood the Noble Earl correctly, his argu-
ment was that we could not treat Ali blourad as a prince,
and at the same time as an individual, and then upon that
assumption the Noble Earl proceeded to draw a distinction
between the offence with which he had been charged and
was legally punishable, and that which had taken place.
He contended Ali Mourad' was an independent prince, be-
tween whom and the British Government in India treaties
subsisted, and should have been treated in accordance with
that position, a 3 far as his territories were concerned. But
a commission which had been appointed to examine the
matter had reported that, without further investigation,
there was enough to justify us in stripping him of his ter-
ritory by an act of war, because he had by his falsehood and
his intrigues among the other princes been the cause of the
expenditure of a vast amount of blood and treasure. It
was necessary to proceed against him in the manner
they bad done, in order that there might be no
misconception, on the part of the native princes,
as to the position of the Indian Government in
the matter, and he thought it was superior to the very
extraordinary proposal of the Noble Earl to refer the whole
question to the native Princes add their Durbars. Though
it might be admitted that some of these proceedings were
not in accordance with the usual forms of law, yet he was
sure that whoever would fairly investigate the subject,
would find that the Government had treated with extra-
, ordinary forbearance and lenity a person who had placed
himself, by his act, in a position of hostility to that Govern-
ment, and deceived it in the way he had done. If any
further justification were needed, it would be found in the
circumstances under which the cession of the turban was
held_ Ali .Mourad kept back from that cession the papers
which set forth all the conditions under which its power was
to be exercised, and that secured the turban of headship
by fraud. The facts of that case were perfectly clear, and yet
his Noble Friend complained that the British Government de-
prived him of the turban, which he had gained by such
means. As to the value of the property taken by the
Government, while he would not object to that part of the
motion, he must add that be did not think the Government
were in possession of exact information on that point, and
therefore he did not pledge himself that it would be given.
What he contended briefly was, that the Indian Govern-
ment was justified in demanding not only restitution of the
property obtained by fraudulent means, but also in inflicting
a penalty, by depriving him of the turban which he had ob-
tained by the suppression of documents and by other frauds.
He would not object to the motion of the Noble Earl on the
part of the Government, but, in order to do justice to the
character and motives of the Indian Government, and to
place clearly before the public the grounds on which they
had acted, he proposed to add to the papers moved for by
the Noble Earl the words, namely—" and the whole of the
report of the committee appointed to inquire into the conduct
of Ali Mou"ad, and the evidence taken by them, and upon
which the sentence was based."
Earl GREY observed that the statements made to their
Lordships that night had a bearing on prior transactions,
which he trusted both her Majesty's Government and the
Indian Government would remember. It now appeared that
Ali Mourad had been guilty not only of frauds against the
British Government, but also against his own friends, by
which they had been placed in a position which necessarily
involved hardships, and removed to a great distance from
their native country. If the other Ameers of Scinde had
been deceived though the instrumentality of Ali Mourad,
or• made to appear guilty when they were not so, he thought
it was incumbent upon both the horns Government and the
Indian Government to investigate the matter, in order to
see what could be done by way, of redress for any injustice
or hardship that might have thus unconsciously been in
flicted.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of DERBY, while he did not entirely acquit the
Ameers of Scinde from all criminality, so far agreed with the
Noble Earl, that he had to state that instructions had been
already sent out, not for the purpose of restoring them to their
native country or their former position, but for the purpose of
rendering their position more agreeable.
Earl GREY believed that no war would have taken place
if these Princes had not been driven into it by the persua-
sive influence of Ali Mourad. He was gratified that the
Noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) had expressed an opinion to
that effect.
After a few words from Lord COLCIIESTEM and from Earl
GREY in explanation,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII said, that in consequence
of certain hostile proceedings on the part of the Ameers, a
treaty was agreed to. They signed the treaty one day, and
on the second day wore collecting their troops both in the
front and in the rear of the British troops, and nothing but
the gallantry of Sir Charles Napier on that occasion saved
the British army. The Ameers were condemned, not for
their treachery which preceded the treaty, but for their
;reachery afterwards.
The returns were then ordered.
The Commons Enclosure Bill was read a third time and

paced.
The Consolidated Fund Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved that the Law of
Wills Amendment Bill be read a third time.
Lord CAMP BELL was understood to express the alarm
with which, when in a distant part of the country, en-
gaged in the administration of justice, he heard of certain
provisions in the measure as proposed to be passed, on a sus-
pension of the standing orders.
The LORD CHANCELLOR remarked that the Noble
and Learned Lord had opened a discussion which had been
closed, and found fault with parts of the Bill which had
been withdrawn.
After a few words from Lord CA➢rrBELL, explaining that
he had wished in a single sentence to state the objections he
had to the course which his Noble and Learned Friend had
adopted in his absence, and from the Loup CHANCELLOR,
expressing his anxiety to have it understood that he had
not had the slightest intention of showing discourtesy to the
Noble and Learned Lord,
The Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Personal Estates of Intestates Bill was read a second
time ; the Proclamation for Assembling Parliament Bill
passed through Committee; several private Bills were ad-
vanced a stage, and their Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 29.
THE MILITIA.
Mr. WALPOLE (in continuation from our Third
Edition) proceeded to say—That to raise a force
of 80,000 men in one year would be open to two objec-
tions. It would be difficult by means of bounties to ob-
tain men; and we therefore propose in the first year to
limit the force to 50,000 men. The second advantage to
be derived from that would be this, that instead of hav-
ing all the periods of the service terminate at the same
time, they would terminate at different times, and you
would have some skilled men always remaining.—
hear.) We propose to raise the force by means of
bounties, which we think might be paid in sums of
money down at one payment; or, for the sake of con-
venience to those who might wish it—agricultural la-
bourers, for instance—in monthly payments at, say
2e, 6d. per month. However, we intend to leave it en-
tirely optional. With regard to officers, the House is
aware there are five qualifications; but ere think these
qualifications may be dispensed with in all officerea t s bad
ead
the rank of major. We think it would beanr-
vantage to have the militia officered by who had
previously been in the army, and who may have retired
on half-pay. Therefore, we propose, in that case, that
such officers as have been in the army, the fact of their
having been in the army should be Equivalent to a qua-
lification.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to drilling and
the
training, the House is aware that at present
militia are brought out only 28 days in the year.
From all the information we could obtain on the sub-
ject, we think that 21 days would be sufficient; but
then there are casea in which the period might be e.x-
tended or reduced. For that reason wo will ovide
that the ordinary number of days shall bo 21, the, Crown.
being invested with the power to extend the period to
seven weeks.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the ex-
pense, I must say that in the first year it will. be very
considerable in consequence of having tosp
prroevaiddetzbeoeuxn:
ties, arms, and equipment. But iff
syeoruvitude, the whole
pens° over five years, the period
will amount to about I ,200,000/.,n
250,0001. per year; buti oortahlomosfitrastt thyeearratethot!'
amount to about 400,0001.
expense will necessarily
look upon this as a national
—(Hear, hear.)
Wherefore consider great altera-
force, and we made ties, laws in reference to it
Lions should be E!_ear,
hear.) Wo propose that
equipdmisetrnitcst,
shoulda also ofuorfnthe
as they now stand.—
(U
the arms and
the expense ofpurse.—(Hear,h
bounties, should be borne by the public
se that each
Fro and that, in the neglect of so doing, it
hear.)We alms
furnish that amount of expenditure
should reason-
its proper quotbal;
~
which such quota, if
.provided, would require.—(Hear,
Such, then, in a short compass, is the Bill
hear.)
which we will now submit for the approval and adoption
of the House. The reasons for its adoption, as also the
with one exception, I think objections to it,n I have ex•
plained in the course of my observations. But there is
one objection which I think I ought to explain. The
objection is, that in so large a force of volunteers you
must necessarily interfere with the recruiting of the
army. We have consulted military authorities on the
point, and we are informed that the objection will not
hold, as regards the ages and height of the men.
With reference to the ages of the men, the
House is aware that a recruit must not be more than
24 years of age, and of the height of 5 feet 6 inches. Wo
propose that the height for the militia shall be 5 feet 2
inches. We propose that the ages of the volunteers may
range from 18 to 35 years; so that there, consequently,
can be no interference as regards age. With reference
to height, the House is probably aware that the height
for the British army is 5 feet 6 inches; for the Russian,
5 feet 4 inches, and for the French, 5 feet 1 inch.—
(Laughter.) Gentlemen may smile at this, but although
lam speaking in an English House of Commons, it
ought never to be forgotten that a nobler or more gallant
soldiery never existed in the world than the French.—
(Cheers.) If they can fight battles, and they have fought
gallantly throughout the length and breadth of Europe,
surely our men at 6 feet 2—(Great laughter)—surely
our men at 5 feet 2 must be equal to the work.—(Elear,
hear.) Sir, lam quite aware that this is a subject upon
which I am so little competent, and which involves so
many difficulties, that I may not have expressed myself
as clearly as I could have wished to the House.
Lord J, RUSSELL—What is the length service?
Mr. WALPOLE—Five years. Sir, I have endea-
voured to give a plain and simple statement of the real
facts of the case as I believe them to exist with reference
to the state of our national defences. I think I have
shown the absolute necessity there is for some improve-
ment of these defences. If you believe that you ought
to rosette yourselvel sgaiust eon casualties which pa-

tions as well as individuals are equally subject to, and
so to diminish at least, if not to prevent, the chances of
danger, by providing against it in time of peace, I have
offered to you reasons political and financial why we be-
lieve these defences cannot be improved by increasing
our naval and military establishments, and having done
tbat, I know not what course you have to choose except
this constitutional and rational course, which has already
done good service, I mean by the enrolment of the
militia, relieving the people of this country of almost all
the inconveniences attending it, and securing all the ad-
vantages they have hitherto derived.—(Hear, hear.) It
you accept this measure, I trust you will assist us with
your counsel and support in accomplishing an object
which all of us have in view, of preserving to this coun-
try a permanent and effective defence, combining with
that
'ho anxious desire to put the people to
as little constraint—to subject the people to as little
cahosatibssmi t rsual I. nt
degree ntiahnadwtuetaftpsroyi
was :lour boa lerrycee
reject
aepachn,tlt,ei
ot
tahnoni
,sd.d_o
measure
iesioatehsautro;e
theirhineftareoror.rmf)de
ordinary
nriuynyt
I 1711.tustasnany
false, mistaken notions of parsimonious economy, or from
what I should consider a vain supposition of your being
ever able to provide against danger just at the moment
when it bursts upon you—or if you should trust in an
overweening confidence in the assumed impregnability
of your insular position, permit me to warn you that
you may be deceived, and in that case we shall have tho
melancholy satisfaction of knowing that, as a Govern-
ment, we have endeavoured to du our duty; and I must
add, that the whole responsibility of leaving our shores
in a defenceless state must rest e ith you, and not with
us.—(gear, hear.) But lam persuaded that you will
not say—that the people of this great country will not
say—that you are to give up a measure with so many
advantages and so few inconveniences; but rather, I think,
that they will tell you, " we will not sacrifice for a paltry
saving the permanent security of our hearths and homes--
we will not grudge a small annual sum when we know that
possibly if we do not pay it we may have to pay a heavier
and a far more disgraceful impost levied upon us by
a foreigh power"—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") rgo; ':,...-;!.; 4
we will steadfastly maintain to the utmost of our power • ':mot=;
the dignity and independence of this country, with which . e‘i'a':
our liberties are
awvi neelsietpursaarntausbmolyiutrtuepndoi tateotde
u'riityWtoe
of arreweshebriocvuhen
tdyhoat
not
...,,,1:44.0*i:ti.,,
ancestorsofrueredoei they
oaurrt.enratianoeuna;aud, character,id ~, ,1!
nationalland know- , -issues
holding
fallin trust
well
our resources,
rwehsoou
rceoeme , e
our present blessings, and our future hopes,
I may add, our very existence, depend on the measures
which tho wisa,,re and foresight of Parliament ma
vide for our national defence—knowing that, I isZM;
you will give, at least, a patient consideratioa to the
measure I now have the honour to submit.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HUME said the Right Hon. Gentleman need
not be under any apprehension that his statement was
not intelligible; but ho confessed that he could not
agree with him in the arguments he had brought for-
ward in support of the measure. The only arguments a.,
he had used were based upon a fallacy—upon the .irts
apprehension of an imaginary danger. was it be-
' - t'ff
cause Russia maintained an army of 600,000 men,
and France au army of 400,000, that this country was
to increase her military force to so great an extent?
There was no ground for the increase, and no
satisfactory reason had been assigned. If they were to
have an army of 180,000 men in England, what became
of the Speech from the Throne, in which it was stated
that we were in amity and peace with all foreign
powers ? The Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to have
lost sight altogether of the 250,000 men they had in
India. No specific or threatened attack by any power
had been mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
They were at present upon the most friendly relations
with France, Belgium, and all other foreign powers.
They had already voted 101,900 men for the regular
military establishment of the country; they had voted
15,500 artillery, and 39,000 men for the navy, with a
reserve of 5,000 more, making, in all, a force of 162,000
men; and yet out of that force the Right Hon. Gentleman
told them that they could not muster above 25,000 mat
for the defence of the country. It was stated that they
had 45,000 men absent in the colonies, but why not
bring them home from the colonies if there was any
danger ? In Canada they had 9,000 or
10,000
troops. Why keep them there when they bad 77,,, 6.1
been told that Canada was able to manage her ''...t.0.i
own affairs? Nut less than 14,000,0001. sterling manage been *eau
sad he !ers
voted for the army, the navy, and the ordnance, -,,,.:.,
did not think the French naval and military establish-
,J,
ments amounted to so much. Out of all their l arge • , '
naval force they had, it would appear, only nine listeam-
ne-of-
battle ships, fifteen large frigates, one sloop, nine
frigates, and eight smaller steamers. Ho was surprisewerde
to hear that statement, when be found that there
no less than 235 sail in commission. Would t
she
House
believe that on the coast of Africa, on both des, they
had at the present time 35 sail, that in f
the
ere Medwasitera-
nean they had 31 sail of men-of-war? Ith any
danger why not have these vessels on our own coasts.
They had 6,000 coast-guard men, who would be found
efficient as sailors. In the East Indies they the 25
sail,
on the North American station 26, and at the Cape of_
Good Hope and the coast of Africa 37 sail. He would
remind the House and the Right Hoe. Gentleman,
they bad enrolled the pensioners and the dockyard bat-
talions' at a cost of 30,0001. per atleurn. Taking all
that
these different bodies he could find 25,000 men, with-
out touching the regular troops. The Marines had also
been recently increased in order to set free the
regulars for other duty. Again, he was told that
they had as many police in the metropolis drilled,
as would, if armed, drive all the regulars out
be
of London, and why should not those men
regularly armed and drilled? Then there was the
Irish police force, which was already armed, and which
was better than any regular militia. If all these were
put together it would make a force of 232,000 men:
They had the industry of that country already
nos!
saddled
with a charge of 65 to 67 millions per annual, and
they were about to add another half million to it. That_
heavy charge might be borne when prices were high and
profits large, hut now prices were low and profits had
come down, and it was under such circumstances that it_
people o!
was proposed to increase the weight upon the
that country. Was that wise after forty years of peace?
The Hon. Member stated the case of a Mr. Lovell, who
in 1831 had been drawn for the militia, and had pressed
family to
for exemption on the ground that having
a h
support, and having been out ofe
h work for some time, o
had now got work, by which earned some three
and
or
four shillings a day, and that it would be very
unjust to force him to leave his family destitute to
The
go
on the militia service at ls. a day.his was no ground c2f—(Hear, ) _
magistrate said, however, that t.
exemption; the man refused to serve—he was cerntnittfd,
still he refused; his goods were seized andpas up or
sale; no one would buy ; for two month ale was
attempted in vain; they were sent to a broker, and be
never saw them again; he became from that hour
a Chartist, and bad since continued so; and the
matter caused such excitement that the Government
were obliged to ahandon the measure.—(Hear, hear.)
Such cases would infallibly occur under the proposed
measure, and with a similar result.—(Hear, hear.) Let
the Government make a proper use of the forces they
had, including the coast guard, with its 8,000 men and
35 cruisers—such forces would be of far greater effi-
ciency than ten times the number
this of raw
easure. recruits.
There really was no necessity for m The
panics that had prevailed bad been got up, not by
uolde
women, but halapay officers, who haunted the c 1.01)
about town, and were always looking out fore:i3Piorye
silent and running about circulating rumours and
rest to
letters to the papers, in the hope of bringotongequge2,
of
their mill.—(A laugh.) This was
hthee a
rveesewerevrilecenothtaonn
just
euisnt
promoting so ma=ny
seven who had employ meat; and they were. actually
now many more upon the
—Ulcer.) It was absurd to
after the war, 40 years ago.
of
excite any alarm about the elevationw Napoleen to the
°flicersnotnh•a•etffetctsi
Presidency. What had we do with that? It was Lai-
'tile that any armament could be prepared in France
possible
for the invasion of this country without our having full
notice of it. And in such an emergency the militia
would be useless, at all events with its present staff,
which had been kept up for all these years at an expense
of millions, and would be in time of service ' of
not only
no use but a positive nuisance, and would be at once
replaced by effective officers from the regular forces.
When the Marquis of Lansdowne
wasthe Home-office
at .. .
several experienced officers bad reported that the militia
staff were useless, and that the volunteer corps ought to
be at once got rid of and the militia as soon as possible.
By re-establishing such a system the Government were
about to light a flame in England which would not easily
be extinguished. It would never b e endured that such a
system should be put in operation concurrently with the
levy of about 15,000,0001. for this very object f our na-
-0
tional defences—(ll ear, hear)—and while our navy was
scattered all over the earth employed for purposes often
neither national nor necessary; and our troops sent to
distant colonies were they were not vvanted.—alear,
hear.) The people never would stand it! The coun-
try was in a very different position now from that in
which it bad been when the militia were originally es-
tablished. The militia could not possibly be now a na-
tional force. The character of the population had been
wholly changed.—(Hear, hear.) They bad become a
manufacturing and commercial country, and every. men
was applied by the divhision of labour
suited, to that sp
the miecies of
employment for which o was -
litia system would disturb and disarrange all existing
sources of
.employment—(Hear)—and wculd certainly
entail an enormous amount of demoraliaation when the.
force 'swas embodied.—(llear.) The result would be
that the riff-raff and refuse of sociey would first
_be re-
ceived, and then the virtuous and rtespectable d
anbalmlooterde
youthful , portions of our population would be . d
from to make up the deficiency, and would be combined
with Would such a
with such associates.—(Hear, hear.,
system be endured—the only alternative being the
which many who would be bal-
paying for substitutes, w
Toted for could not afford; for these were times rib©n
Hear
every man's income was reduced—(, hear)—and he
circumstance the embarking
believed that under such
in such a system would never be sanctioned by the
country.—(hear')
Sir DE LACY EVANS said be had given notice,
as an amendment, of a resolution with reference to the
provisions of the Militia Bill, that, though an immediate
amendment and consolidation of the existing militia
laws be indispensable, in order to
soy
resorting to the
of a force of that description in case of nece3sitY,
any sudden or unforeseen hostile attempt against her,
Majeety's dominions will be most economically iteein
efficiently provided fur, and with least interruptkor
to the industrial pursuits of the people, by regult,
troops and volunteers. He bad been informed• how.ei r
vtehe
by the Speaker, that be could not move it nnti ere
by
reading. He should, therefore, confine his
say
servations to the Goren:inept measure. Ile must
.t
that the Right Hon. Gentleman who bad proposead 1.
(Mr. Secretary Walpole) needed not to make anY P°..
logy for himself on account of the novelty of his
able an
tion, for certainly his speech had been most 01 s',4,
Rips
clear.—(Hear.) He conceived, however, that the
~...,,,a
Licttl. Grentlemo 'lt'd filliwi iut9 Owls !OW urea